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00:03:09 <int-e> ais523: I'm pretty sure that if I had assumed that it was a general desire I would've used "wants" instead of "wanted" :)
00:03:33 <ais523> right – just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding
00:08:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Wolfram does this where about what system?
00:08:26 <ais523> b_jonas: proving TCness of S
00:08:56 <b_jonas> doesn't combinator calculus have an order that is TC if any order is TC?
00:10:07 <ais523> b_jonas: so the issue here is that the TCness is expected to not be in the behaviour of the resulting terms, but rather the process of reducing htem
00:11:04 <ais523> a good way to think about it is to think about the rewrite rule for S, S(x)(y)(z) → x(z)(y(z)), as the rule of a rewriting-based esolang rather than the implementation of a function
00:11:20 <b_jonas> oh, if it's S combinator only, that explains why you said the TCness is likely in non-halting programs
00:11:33 <ais523> …and "non-halting-based TCness" is allowed, although (as usual) hard to define
00:12:28 <b_jonas> I mean the first computers that I used didn't have a concept of halting, unless an external person turns off their power switch or unplugs them, so this seems obvious
00:13:06 <ais523> right, the usual definition of halting for such systems is the "tight infinite loop", i.e. an infinite loop that repeats the same sequence of states over and over again, making it obvious that the loop cannot be broken
00:13:27 <ais523> but there are more complicated halting states too
00:14:09 <ais523> my 2,3 Turing machine proof originally used "any of these specific locations on the tape are visited twice", although I eventually found a construction for which halting sent the tape head to the left of its starting point
00:15:00 <b_jonas> no, at least not in the case I'm talking about: those computers all have some form of output device, so instead of halting you'd look at whether they output something specific
00:15:12 <ais523> OK, that's another good definition
00:15:25 <ais523> you could even in theory connect the output device to the power supply
00:15:59 <b_jonas> yes, and all modern computers do that, but that was called "ATX motherboard and ATX-compatible power supply" and an innovation in my lifetime
00:16:03 <ais523> I think some early 386 computers had a way for the microprocessor to ask the keyboard controller to reset the microprocessor
00:16:13 <b_jonas> well the first implementation was called that
00:16:15 <ais523> in order to get back into real mode from protected mode
00:16:35 <ais523> (although later people figured out that you could do it with an intentional triple fault instead)
00:16:45 <b_jonas> ais523: reset, yes, but in a way that the computer can keep some state across that, so it's not really a halt state
00:17:08 <ais523> I think it reset the entire state of the microprocessor, but the state you really care about is mostly in RAM which isn't reset the same way
00:17:28 <b_jonas> it erases some of the state, sure
00:18:05 <b_jonas> it may even erase state in a way that's inconvenient for practical programming
00:19:28 <ais523> I doubt it's that much worse than a context switch
00:19:46 <b_jonas> which may be a feature by the way: there is an advantage to a computer like a Commodore-64 where if no extension cartridge is plugged in then you can make some data in memory survive, but the reset drops you into a BASIC prompt with no automatic way without user interaction to continue the previous program, so you can't make malware that survives intentional resets
00:19:58 <ais523> you might have to spill some of the MSRs and control registers, but in the 386 days I doubt there were all that many of them to spill (there are probably a lot more nowadays)
00:20:30 <b_jonas> it's not even just memory, it could be a casette tape or, if you have more money, floppy, but the point is that the computer doesn't automatically run a program from them after startup, it can just read them if you so ask
00:20:45 <int-e> b_jonas: I believe I found the list of languages in the settings and removed them all. (I checked now and the list is empty.)
00:21:02 <ais523> I haven't used Firefox's translator yet, but I don't mind it asking me
00:21:04 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+845) created page
00:21:41 <int-e> b_jonas: But I also disabled browser.translations.automaticallyPopup which I suspect I did by checking about:config.
00:22:02 <int-e> the important part is that it's turned off ;-)
00:22:50 <esolangs> [[User:Shazun bhasfu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162852&oldid=160119 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1427)
00:23:37 <b_jonas> ais523: I sort of find it insulting, like it makes the assumption of websites of multinational companies that assumes that everyone speaks only one language, they want to see their website in that one language even if it's in a bad translation, and this language depends only on the country, so you have to lie to them that you want the website for "Serbia" or some such to get it to give you info in
00:23:43 <b_jonas> English but still tell you what they're selling in continental Europe
00:24:07 <ais523> b_jonas: often I like to be able to read both the original and a machine translation
00:24:37 <ais523> I don't read any non-English language nearly as well as you read English, but I know the basics of many of them
00:25:04 <b_jonas> ais523: I especially hate Ebay because it started to automatically translate the listings of all third-party sellers. it's one thing to make your website give badly translated info, but it's much more arrogant to translate listings and try to force buyers to buy something without being able to read what the seller offers to them
00:25:10 <ais523> so the offer to translate is potentially useful for me, but only as an offer where I can say "yes this time" or "no this time"
00:25:13 <b_jonas> I mean from a third-party seller
00:25:25 <ais523> a *forced* translation would definitely be bad
00:26:01 <b_jonas> and Ebay seems to be doing that, or at least they're pushing the translation hard, I don't claim that there's no way to fool Ebay to give you the original listing
00:26:24 <ais523> (my learning of foreign languages is almost entirely concerned with reading – I don't normally have a need to write or speak, and listening is more difficult than reading and subtitles are usually available for content that isn't in written form already)
00:28:14 <esolangs> [[Trifack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162853&oldid=162851 * Shazun bhasfu * (+1) /* example programs */
00:29:37 <ais523> that said, I hardly know any Hungarian despite having actually been to Hungary
00:30:14 <ais523> "húzni" and "tolni" were easy to deduce from context, but that's about the extent of what I picked up
00:51:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162854&oldid=162807 * Pifrited * (+938)
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01:11:36 <korvo> fruits4fruits: Yeah, it's funny how a clock is easy to change, but timestamps can be indelible.
01:16:35 * b_jonas searches his box of blue cards for Regress (Mirrodin)
01:37:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162855&oldid=162816 * Hotcrystal0 * (+152)
01:37:46 <korvo> Chewing through this combinator S paper. It's not easy. I'm on p9, telling myself that X/Y is read as "a slide of X onto Y" in order to cope. Might be dinner time.
01:53:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162856&oldid=162834 * Hotcrystal0 * (-214)
01:54:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162857&oldid=162856 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0)
01:55:27 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162858&oldid=162857 * Hotcrystal0 * (+106)
01:59:04 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162859&oldid=162858 * Hotcrystal0 * (+65)
01:59:16 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162860&oldid=162859 * Hotcrystal0 * (+10)
02:03:33 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162861&oldid=162860 * Hotcrystal0 * (+52)
02:39:00 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+4043) linguifex is too unstable :(
02:48:09 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162863&oldid=162830 * Junkshipp * (-350) /* Calling functions */
02:52:11 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162864&oldid=162863 * Junkshipp * (-16) /* Whitespace and comments */
03:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162865&oldid=162862 * I am islptng * (+47) /* Core Words */
03:39:52 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162866&oldid=162864 * Junkshipp * (+587)
03:40:48 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162867&oldid=162866 * Junkshipp * (+0) /* Defining functions */
03:41:00 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162868&oldid=162867 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
04:20:13 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/Idea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162869&oldid=162378 * Pifrited * (+30)
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05:14:42 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162870&oldid=161736 * Corbin * (+944) Clean up example, move it to top, and add section on properties.
05:28:27 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162871&oldid=162844 * Corbin * (-589) /* Minimal combinator bases */ Split into two sections. Iota is not a combinator, but it is a closed lambda term. Fix up refs too.
05:29:48 <esolangs> [[Turing tarpit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162872&oldid=162871 * Corbin * (+0) /* Minimal closed lambda terms */ Fix formatting.
05:30:38 <esolangs> [[Lambda calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162873&oldid=102882 * Corbin * (+25) /* See also */ Closed lambda terms.
05:34:09 <esolangs> [[Iota]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162874&oldid=162823 * Corbin * (-588) Remove speculative/wrong stuff. Sorry about that!
05:43:47 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162875&oldid=162848 * Corbin * (+989) /* Via lambda calculus */ Hack out this section.
05:48:44 <esolangs> [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162876&oldid=162875 * Corbin * (+21) /* Via lambda calculus */ Make it clear that x.c is not closed.
06:14:45 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162877&oldid=162870 * Corbin * (+375) /* Combinators */ Integrate above sections, hack out theorems, and remove some non-combinators documented at [[closed lambda term]].
06:17:32 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162878&oldid=162877 * Corbin * (-42) /* BCKW calculus */ Don't spuriously re-define combinators. It's the same K combinator in both systems.
06:18:35 <korvo> Okay, I'm nearly done. I *think* that I haven't accidentally deleted an entire section of related links, but I did shuffle some references.
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08:23:50 <b_jonas> korvo: nice, can you edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload too?
08:27:58 <b_jonas> korvo: hmm, I should figure out a better phrasing for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming because I think "based on tuples" is an inaccurate description for FP and Amicus. they are based on functions with arbitrary (but fixed at compile time) number of arguments. it's a hypothetical language with no currying, no upvalues, and single argument functions that can be said to be based on tuples,
08:28:04 <b_jonas> though I don't think such a thing exists in pure form and it probably shouldn't.
08:30:45 <b_jonas> Amycus is an exception, because it actually has an apply builtin rather than a call builtin, it's broken in exactly that way
08:32:06 <b_jonas> although I may be saying something wrong about Amicus and Amycus here, I'll have to look more into this
08:37:52 <b_jonas> hmm no, FP is tuple-based too
08:38:10 <b_jonas> I should look into this later
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11:48:09 <HackEso> [U+1F603 SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
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12:03:55 <HackEso> [U+1F626 FROWNING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
12:04:30 <fizzie> "Turn that smile off for a while." Or "make that smile full of guile." (Poetry less than graciously provided by Gemini.)
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12:06:36 <int-e> fizzie: somebody on Bluesky was asking what that emoji is supposed to convey.
12:18:30 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162879&oldid=162868 * Junkshipp * (+73) /* Defining functions */
13:05:08 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162880&oldid=162839 * Hotcrystal0 * (+957)
13:17:18 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162881&oldid=162879 * Junkshipp * (+81) /* Deduction */
13:17:58 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162882&oldid=162881 * Junkshipp * (-17) /* #tc - Transitivity and commutativity */
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13:30:52 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162883&oldid=162880 * Hotcrystal0 * (+428)
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14:07:06 <esolangs> [[User:Pifrited/PasteBin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162884&oldid=162836 * Pifrited * (+593)
14:10:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ROHA * New user account
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15:54:19 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162885&oldid=162882 * Junkshipp * (+1) /* Defining functions */
16:35:15 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162886&oldid=162883 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1687)
16:48:36 <korvo> b_jonas: I don't know how we should say it, but there's an equivalence between multicategories (functions take and return multiple arguments) and monoidal-closed categories (functions take and return single arguments, tuples are values) so we have a choice about how to present them.
16:48:58 <korvo> e.g. Cammy's models are monoidal closed too.
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16:54:00 <korvo> I'll have to think about what to say for Underload, also Unlambda and Mlatu. TBH I think that the existing pages are decent enough; they aren't based on combinatory-logic combinators, but on a specific stack+contatenative paradigm for which we don't really have a good name.
17:13:53 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162887&oldid=162886 * Hotcrystal0 * (+899)
17:14:57 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162888&oldid=162887 * Hotcrystal0 * (+3)
17:22:06 <esolangs> [[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162889 * WarzokERNST135 * (+533) Created page with "[[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. It was made to do 99 bottles of beer and many programs. ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== zillion { encode(ispl).shark(#u!I$*~~"${$$}bottles of beer on the
17:22:35 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162890&oldid=162827 * WarzokERNST135 * (+37)
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17:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162891&oldid=162885 * Junkshipp * (+251)
17:50:28 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162892&oldid=162891 * Junkshipp * (+1)
18:51:53 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162893&oldid=162878 * Corbin * (+175) /* Properties */ Rank is an invariant.
19:11:56 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162894&oldid=162893 * Corbin * (+559) /* Non-primitives */ Format the table.
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19:24:34 <korvo> b_jonas: Do you have any sources on the non-Smullyan bird names? Several names are missing from their glossary, e.g. B2 and B3 as "Bunting" and "Becard".
19:25:40 <korvo> Perhaps they're mentioned in the book and weren't in the glossary, in which case I can spend a few hours re-reading a classic.
19:27:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162895&oldid=162894 * Corbin * (+308) Cracked open my copy of Mockingbird and double-checked the bird names.
19:28:29 <esolangs> [[Asm2bf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162896&oldid=132131 * Palaiologos * (-6)
19:31:37 <korvo> ...Yep, it's the latter case. For example, p104 of my 2000 paperpack printing names F* as the once-removed finch.
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19:59:18 <b_jonas> korvo: I only have the bird book in translation. In theory I can try to look up if a bird is named, but not what it's named in the original, and I don't really care about the specific names of most birds.
20:00:56 <b_jonas> the list in the appendix doesn't have anything named B2 or B3. that doesn't guarantee that the main text doesn't mention those.
20:01:38 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162897&oldid=162888 * Hotcrystal0 * (+919)
20:03:58 <b_jonas> I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones, for the rest use an expression made of those, or a lambda expression, or a Haskell name, or an unlambda name etc
20:05:41 <b_jonas> (unlambda's d and c are probably not birds)
20:07:47 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162898&oldid=162895 * Corbin * (-169) /* Table of combinators */ Found most of the unsourced birds; they're in Smullyan, but not in the glossary.
20:08:37 <korvo> b_jonas: No worries. I re-read the relevant sections. Most of the names not in the glossary are part of the big list of compositing operators in Bravura's forest.
20:09:01 <korvo> I don't know what an omega or theta bird is though.
20:12:29 <b_jonas> if you mean Theta, that is listed in the appendex
20:20:13 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162899&oldid=162797 * Ractangle * (-258) /* Commands */ we really don't need more
20:21:57 <esolangs> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162900&oldid=162898 * Corbin * (+406) /* Properties */ Add two more important properties.
20:22:46 <korvo> Oh, curious. This must be a difference between our copies. Mine says that θ x = x (θ x); and calls it "sage bird". That's normally the combinator we call Y, though. So I'm not sure what the θ symbol should be.
20:24:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162901&oldid=162897 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1479)
20:27:33 <b_jonas> korvo: yes, that is the definition given in the appendix
20:27:46 <esolangs> [[User:Junkshipp/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162902&oldid=162892 * Junkshipp * (+21) /* Defining functions */
20:27:59 <b_jonas> so the symbol for it is Theta, the fancy name is sage bird
20:32:26 <korvo> Hm, okay. The definition given on the wiki is Y O, or Y (S I), which appears to have the same behavior as Y? Y (S I) x = S I (Y (S I)) x = I x (Y (S I) x) = x (Y (S I) x)
20:32:56 <korvo> But I don't see it in the big list of Turing bird expressions. Perhaps this is the cost of not eating lunch.
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20:52:57 <esolangs> [[Definition]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162903&oldid=162829 * Ractangle * (+3) you can remove the question mark if you can call this as a subset
21:14:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162904&oldid=162901 * Hotcrystal0 * (+2127)
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23:20:36 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162905&oldid=162904 * Hotcrystal0 * (+266)
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