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> 1754698325 592417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5*  10moved [[02 10]] to [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]]
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> 1754704972 295556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sollux14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163156 5* 03Bigman4u 5* (+12023) 10First draft of sollux page
> 1754705449 209458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fzzbzz14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163157&oldid=160446 5* 03Bigman4u 5* (+55) 10add a link to another Fzzbzz implementation
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> 1754718190 529800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163159&oldid=163158 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+10) 10
< 1754718575 789339 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754718700 462561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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> 1754725559 749693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163160&oldid=158024 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+24) 10
> 1754725965 888659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163161 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+3006) 10renamed language
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> 1754728936 476894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:My github profile read me.png10]]"
> 1754729992 361954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163163&oldid=163161 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-3006) 10Blanked the page
> 1754730057 841114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Setler10]] to [[Oisg0ba328946vbser]]: idk how to delete this page
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> 1754730476 878037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163168&oldid=163167 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+32) 10delete request
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> 1754730923 194174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Selter10]] to [[Setler v1]]: i changed the name of the language
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> 1754731301 404813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163175&oldid=163169 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+123) 10changed to disambig
< 1754732740 230805 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754733084 253133 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo
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< 1754738619 212325 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1754741138 771386 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] based299792458
< 1754741233 808446 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :yo
> 1754741685 988391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sollux14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163176&oldid=163156 5* 03Bigman4u 5* (+1) 10fix typos
> 1754743840 262614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emoticode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163177&oldid=163047 5* 03Myalt2334 5* (+25) 10I only needed one category, right..? I don't know how to fully categorize this.
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> 1754747730 245017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emoticode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163179&oldid=163177 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+105) 10categories
> 1754748214 473006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163180&oldid=163080 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+88) 10
< 1754748706 419782 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
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< 1754753133 43917 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1754754525 409840 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: Morning.
> 1754755957 859892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163184&oldid=154619 5* 03Corbin 5* (+370) 10Clean up the intro.
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< 1754757615 225420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my normal hedging around the Church-Turing thesis is to say "any language that we know how to implement" when defining TCness, computability, etc.
< 1754757647 267198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that should uncontroversially exclude the uncomputable ones
< 1754757670 301983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sometimes I also mention time travel as an example of something that gives more power but we don't know how to implement it)
> 1754757723 361486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Insanely Easy10]]": this page contains no useful content, in particular it does not contain a description of an esolang
< 1754757961 25142 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm working on the next edit, where I give Turing's argument that we can only write finitely many symbols on a region of paper. But yeah, for sure, there's many possible surprises in physics that we haven't ruled out.
< 1754758007 667621 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Personally I think that C = BQP, rather than something like C = R. BQP already requires the universe to commit to exponential amounts of data that can't be accessed, by Hardy's and Holevo's theorems, so it's already quite a difficult metaphysical pill to swallow.
< 1754758075 321678 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Holevo's theorem, or Holevo's bound, says a row of qubits only yields a row of bits when measured. Hardy's ontological excess-baggage theorem says that a row of qubits has exponential amounts of bits when classically described. I didn't do it, man.)
< 1754758094 20559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :analog computers typically initialise with uncomputable numbers already in their integrators, but I'm not sure there's any way to actually benefit from that fact
< 1754758158 732850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…actually the universe is *trivially* capable of going beyond TCness – Turing machines can't generate random numbers, but physical processes can
< 1754758166 541856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure why I didn't notice that before
< 1754758234 167926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can argue that the random numbers don't give any extra computational power, but that depends on how you define "computational"
< 1754758243 821101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it makes at least some phrasings of the Church-Turing thesis obviously false
< 1754758303 574120 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :chances that physical "randomness" is just chaos?
< 1754758329 558422 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, usually we use something like BPP or BQP, which evidence suggests are bounded as low as NP, and are definitely bounded by EXP.
< 1754758357 122805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: it's possible, but it flips the burden of proof
< 1754758389 150000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: No. Chaos is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions; the conditions are knowable but hard to estimate. QM is something very different. I usually start and end at the Kochen-Specker theorem: spin-1 particles have an observable which *cannot be definite*.
< 1754758393 117531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: EXP lets you simulate all the possible random outcomes, but it doesn't let you choose one of them
< 1754758417 685849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, not randomly
< 1754758451 321474 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: We only need PSPACE, by Feynman's approach; basically, we can write out each family of Feynman diagrams and there's only poly-many families. This led both to quantum computers and something called the "consistent histories" interpretation of QM.
< 1754758505 267662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's not my point – simulating all possible outcomes of a random process lets you compute anything deterministic that the random process could compute, but it doesn't allow you to pick a random number
< 1754758541 845919 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for today's reading guys lol
< 1754758553 723698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking about determinism earlier today because I was thinking about read-sidechannel exploits like SPECTRE
< 1754758561 508884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, sure. I suppose that if you want randomness, you need to ensure that the starting state is in superposition relative to the measurement device. This is easier than it sounds; with polarized sunglasses, one merely tilts their head.
< 1754758609 274294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :safe languages can prevent most exploits, but can't prevent sidechannels exfiltrating data, and it seems unlikely that modern processors would ever be immune to all possible ways of doing that
< 1754758628 444298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, running untrusted code even sandboxed is dangerous because it may be able to read secrets from your computer and exfiltrate them
< 1754758639 188336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: No worries. Randomness is a very difficult concept. We usually end up intuiting or guessing that some fundamental object has a uniform distribution somewhere, and that misleads us when we try to extract high-level understanding.
< 1754758672 678698 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. I'm sure you've seen the argument about whether the universe is ones- or twos-complement, too.
< 1754758673 464370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, I realised that if you prove that the untrusted code is *deterministic* before running it, that proves that it isn't making use of any microarchitectural side channels
< 1754758707 246739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although determinism is awkward here – it includes things like the timing of externally visible I/O
< 1754758708 146457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can still discover properties of the emulator, but they'll be Rice-trivial properties, rather than anything with interesting semantic content.
> 1754758789 854049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163185&oldid=163184 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3107) 10Explain Turing's intuition. We're still missing Church's perspective.
< 1754758801 487169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has made me think a lot about things like security mitigations, though, e.g. ASLR seems kind-of useless in most threat models because it's so trivial to derandomize the addresses, but is much more effective when the threat model is "the attacker gives you something non-Turing-complete to parse noninteractively"
< 1754758837 663885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Speaking of Rice's theorem. I need to dig into this corner of the history more deeply. I gather that Rice's proof was along the lines of Church's proof of TC-ness; otherwise, I'm not sure what Rice proved, because Turing 1937 literally proves what we call Rice's theorem for TMs!
< 1754758975 301512 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, here's a fun fusion. In one perspective, what you're saying is that we can de-weird a code host via determinism by removing the possibility that an untrusted hunk of code could have multiple distinct actions attached to it in differing contexts.
< 1754759028 852510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And recently, I re-climbed the hill of Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph, which says that quantum states aren't epistemic. In particular, mixed states are just as real as pure states; superpositions are as real as prepared laboratory inputs.
< 1754759090 108957 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The key to Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph (PBR please) is that we want to imagine a black-box system preparing inputs. The inputs are labeled with the state that they were prepared in. Then, we show that if the labelings are ever wrong, then we can use that wrongness to create an overlap, and that overlap leads to contradiction.
< 1754759157 748746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is so similar to black-box correctness for unsafe code loading. The loaded code is black-box in its memory layout (and capabilities, etc.) but it can have a syntactic type annotation which proves that the code was loaded in a particular safe state. Then, we show that if it ever actually was unsafe, then that unsafety can escalate to unsoundness, then to weirdness, then to exploitation.
< 1754759224 57188 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The state of the laboratory around the PBR setup doesn't really matter. Why not? Well, we're not actually interacting with it!
< 1754759286 980271 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, your setup doesn't really care about ASLR because those regions can't be accessed. There isn't actually an interaction there!
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< 1754759529 480511 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...On a re-read, I should move some of this [[computable]] stuff to [[Turing machine]]. There should be a section explaining why TMs capture computability; Turing wrote several pages justifying it, not just a single footnote.
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> 1754762329 891465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163186&oldid=163185 5* 03Corbin 5* (+72) 10/* Intuition */ Try harder to give intuition.
< 1754763768 865612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do we have a repository for public-domain papers? If not, I can start one.
> 1754765004 169687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheSpiderNinjas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163187&oldid=156409 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-5) 10
> 1754765075 226242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheSpiderNinjas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163188&oldid=163187 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+34) 10
< 1754765267 602988 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1754766187 711016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163189 5* 03Ello 5* (+2938) 10Created page with "(XiNu or Xn) is an esoteric programming language made by Ello(me :D)  ==Base Syntax==   has a special quirk, it is nonary, which means all of its bits can have values from 0 to 8, the bytes in  are 7 bits long and a kilobyte is 1013 bytes long, all outputted text in  uses a speci
< 1754766341 73275 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1754766370 424524 :vyv!~vyv@bras-base-nrbaon0452w-grc-32-76-65-8-247.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver
> 1754768320 959844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163190&oldid=163186 5* 03Corbin 5* (+4309) 10/* Intuition */ Split and give Church's version too.
> 1754768875 930181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163191&oldid=163190 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ indent
> 1754768894 98310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163192&oldid=163191 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10/* Via Turing machines */ another indent
> 1754769510 868522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163193&oldid=163192 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1302) 10This is such a sick mic drop. Also, add a history section to make it all read better.
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> 1754770633 878659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163194&oldid=163152 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+515) 10/* Ideas */
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> 1754776310 10993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163195&oldid=156431 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-146) 10/* Cat program */
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> 1754777374 416938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163196&oldid=163008 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+281) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754777481 275488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163197&oldid=163193 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3450) 10/* Formalism */ Split. The existing section is basically topos theory. The new section is Yanofsky's approach!
> 1754779021 313644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163198&oldid=163196 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+470) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754780868 492392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163199&oldid=163198 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+389) 10
> 1754781099 697161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163200&oldid=163199 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+3) 10/* Example code */
> 1754781188 968816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163201&oldid=163200 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+31) 10/* Example code */
> 1754781342 721867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163202&oldid=163197 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1431) 10/* Via category theory */ And cap off with two versions of Rice's theorem. Very exciting.
> 1754782418 828209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163203&oldid=163202 5* 03Corbin 5* (+37) 10/* Via category theory */ Fix up bad phrasing and overly-broad statement.
> 1754782481 442625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163204&oldid=163194 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-51) 10
< 1754782509 211690 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I think I got everything worth getting. Yanofsky's 2003 paper is so good. Like, I wish that I could just slap cranks with it over and over and over again.
< 1754782559 458274 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the first two sections of [[computable]] are accessible. I fully acknowledge that the three sections with maths are hard and compressed.
> 1754782569 249608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163205&oldid=163204 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+25) 10