< 1754960104 80193 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement > 1754962202 135705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff/Appendix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163302 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1034) 10Add a script that reproduces the non-trivial simulation-based result on the main page. > 1754965417 460253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163303&oldid=163239 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+764) 10 > 1754970316 292343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CWarp214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163304&oldid=161455 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-3662) 10Blanked the page > 1754970362 637285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163305&oldid=161450 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-21) 10/* Projects that i've made: */ > 1754970397 545849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163306&oldid=163305 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+13) 10/* Project Descriptions */ > 1754972955 430507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Obscure14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163307 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+383) 10Created page with "What should we do with this page's "implementation" status (as well as all the other languages where their only impementations were on Glitch)? Because TECHNICALLY at ONE stage in time it WAS implemented, but now that glitch stopped doing hosting, it's no lo > 1754975090 977196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Obscure14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163308&oldid=163307 5* 03Corbin 5* (+557) 10Good question! < 1754978004 303233 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1754978031 158694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163309 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+16015) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} :''gur yvsr'' is typically stylized as all lowercase. ''gur yvsr'' is the very first esolang created by [[User:Placeholding]]. It is inspired by [[Brainfuck]] and (slightly inspired by) [[Emmental]], though it is not as confusing as either of them ( < 1754978657 695760 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1754979154 175225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03M1n3c4rt 5* 10New user account < 1754979548 349461 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1754981594 122558 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.103 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8 < 1754983331 600002 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1754985212 398148 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1754985451 996333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163310&oldid=163250 5* 03M1n3c4rt 5* (+104) 10 < 1754985824 972677 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1754986960 519918 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Zaraday! Hail Eris! 😇 > 1754988814 154872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* 10New user account > 1754989233 861888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163311&oldid=163310 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+126) 10 > 1754989276 722424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hiiragiaoi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163312 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+24) 10Created page with "https://github.com/lxern" < 1754989529 976988 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1754990208 201883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nullscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163313 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+4290) 10Created page with "MediaWikiNullScript '''NullScript''' is an experimental functional programming language centered around the concept of "nothingness." Unlike traditional programming languages that have a single null value, it is characterized by distinguishing between four differ > 1754990253 211507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nullscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163314&oldid=163313 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (-63) 10 < 1754990395 537047 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :BQP more accurately describes: what we'd like to be able to compute, but it's not obvious yet whether we can actually do it < 1754990598 711691 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The weirdness theorems (Bell, Holevo, etc) are probably right though--I think Aaronson once made the point that, if these laws didn't hold, physics would probably be extra weird in a way that would allow for even more computation > 1754990947 44936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Insulation 5* 10New user account < 1754991656 971152 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… > 1754991795 254077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163315&oldid=163311 5* 03Insulation 5* (+334) 10 < 1754992096 595573 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1754992232 559043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163316&oldid=162749 5* 03Insulation 5* (+94) 10 < 1754994117 450133 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname > 1754994672 990721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Insulation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163317 5* 03Insulation 5* (+91) 10Created page with "'''HELLLLOOOOOOOO''' I like breathing oxygen and nitrogen. I also expel carbon dioxide gas." < 1754995383 629555 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.103 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1754995897 484533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1754997762 187959 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1754997786 287971 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1754997929 315627 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1754998018 607244 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1754998408 628748 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1755002550 59671 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1755003258 700211 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1755003270 839829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07~X14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163318 5* 03Insulation 5* (+1814) 10One instruction esoteric language I think euguehehfifk < 1755003438 312127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a bit offtopic, but potentially big tech news: https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/goodbye-github/ GitHub's CEO is leaving, and instead of acting as an autonomus company owned by Microsoft, it's being moved to be run by "Microsoft's CoreAI organization" < 1755003461 308199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try to avoid using Github as much as possible, but am expecting major consequences anyway > 1755003524 205442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07~X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163319&oldid=163318 5* 03Insulation 5* (+69) 10 < 1755004043 947051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: This news irritates me because I don't perceive it as a change. The AI focus was there when MS acquired GitHub. It's just officially under the AI umbrella now which I suspect is mainly for accounting (GH revenue becomes AI revenue). < 1755004071 369567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I agree that there's been a clear increasing AI focus there recently anyway < 1755004091 853810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was possible to interpret it as a side business, at least that's what I was hoping it was < 1755004128 872345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :your accounting trick theory seems reasonable, although I'd at least hope investors would see through it < 1755004155 740408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the main consequence I see from this is that if Github becomes an AI platform rather than repository host, everyone may have ot move < 1755004196 187065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The CoPilot integration is quite obnoxious. (I have several cosmetic ublock filters for this already, and I hardly use the github frontend actively (to contribute, as opposed to browsing repositories)) < 1755004249 52032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found an option in the github settings to disable Copilot from the UI, which made things a lot better < 1755004254 296698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it probably only works while logged in < 1755004267 847359 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(do the AI features even work while logged out? they are at least advertised while logged out) < 1755004274 967373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that it's symbolic enough that it might trigger an exodus of free software and open source developers. < 1755004300 527807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I reserve the right to find it silly ;) < 1755004453 782443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect there is an untapped market for things sold as "does not include AI, blockchain, or smart features" < 1755004557 271000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is, but is it big enough to offset the additional income from adding this crap (with the implied data collection and tracking)? (It doesn't really matter whether this added income is imaginary or real.) < 1755004625 649765 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, it may depend on the seller in that case – some are likely to value imaginary tracking income higher than others < 1755004677 448213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( How many non-smart TV models are there these days? ) < 1755004698 567160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sorry for the unfair question.) < 1755004709 867791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION should ask about fridges or washing machines to make it fair.
< 1755004772 632302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's what made me think there was an untapped market, I remember hearing someone complain about trying to buy one < 1755004773 506941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Smart TVs are special in that the added value of using them for streaming video is real. It's just awful that the same technology is ripe for abuse.) < 1755004811 46258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :earlier today I was reading a number of UK government reports that were trying to predict the consequences of increasing ownership of smart fridges and washing machines < 1755004991 569860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they had two main concerns: a) cybersecurity, b) the potential that the washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep, making the consequences worse if they malfunctioned < 1755005015 648727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b) this doesn't apply to fridges, which don't get a choice about what times of day they run < 1755005032 672724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* b) doesn't apply < 1755005170 136242 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1755005240 330835 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1755006098 551111 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1755006113 134510 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1755006855 112834 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1755006889 199014 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add < 1755006898 519742 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel there's definitely been an uptick in "creative" things (like stock video clip sites) advertising themselves as 100% AI-free. < 1755006906 393474 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's large scale free webhosting. I don't think most users will suddenly migrate away just because microsoft reorganized it to another division < 1755006943 27277 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And Steam game pages have an AI disclosure statement. < 1755006996 283294 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :( re TVs specifically: https://www.humansecurity.com/learn/blog/badbox-2-0-the-sequel-no-one-wanted/ ) < 1755007124 922024 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TV is different, but I very much hope that non-smart fridges and washing machines exist, because if the ones that I use die I want to be able to buy new ones. in fact, both my brother and my parents bought new (non-smart) washing machines in the last few years, so they should still exist. wow, I have the *oldest* washing machine in the family! < 1755007125 422543 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it's still not old, it's only roughly eleven years old. < 1755007351 488750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add ← you probably don't have to prove it, you can just advertise it (assuming it's true) and many customers will rely on you not wanting to risk getting sued for false advertising < 1755007352 881603 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :We bought a new non-smart fridge freezer recently, because the previous one stopped cooling anything down, which is pretty key functionality. < 1755007366 393526 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TVs are different for two reasons. I don't have one and don't want to buy one, whereas I love having a washing machine and fridge and wouldn't want to live without them. Regardless of "smart", televisions are effectively subsidized by Youtube and Netflix and other content providers paying the TV companies to make the TV come with prominent < 1755007366 893848 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dedicated buttons for those services on the remote control, and prominent menu entries in the UI. I don't think that sort of advertising deal happens to fridges or washing machines. < 1755007400 723641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: what functionality do they even have, other than cooling their contents, defrosting themselves, and illuminating their contents only when the door is open? < 1755007439 592929 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not much. But the light still worked, so that's something. < 1755007447 48238 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's like a display case for food at that point. < 1755007467 52625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the papers I was reading this morning said that only about half of smart TV owners had installed them in a way that allowed any of the smart features to work < 1755007476 375256 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do they have any fridges with glass doors? That seems like a terrible idea, but maybe. < 1755007501 114927 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1755007505 668987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I've seen a fridge, in a video or on TV, which had a variable-opacity door, I forget what caused it to become less opaque < 1755007515 837899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this struck me as a ridiculous feature even at the time < 1755007516 526901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: well they have thos in some grocery stores ;) < 1755007520 945186 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Our wine cooler (which we don't use, except temporarily when the fridge broke down, because it goes down to 6 °C or so, which is not too bad) has a transparent door. < 1755007542 618221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it may have been featured in the video due to being unusual rather than due to being a good idea < 1755007544 786880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure there's a market for that but overall I'd rather have proper insulation. < 1755007569 988678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many of the groceries here used to have fridges without doors, some still do < 1755007587 114526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but most have added doors to save energy (both in terms of saving the company money and in terms of being good for the environment) < 1755007613 311707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think what happened is that the grocery stores would have wanted to put the doors on all along, to save money, but were worried about the customers finding it inconvenient < 1755007629 556631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and advertised the environmental-friendless as an attempt to justify the increased inconvenience to the customers < 1755007654 690185 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: it would be difficult for a hosting service like github. for a fridge or washing machine it's not hard, because fridges can come with no integrated electronics, and washing machines can come with just a small microcontroller clearly too small for anything "smart". same for stoves and ovens, dishwashers, microwaves, vacuum cleaners, audio < 1755007655 190432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :amps, etc. admittedly there's the slight complication that for some of these you need some basic expertise or a permit to disassemble them safely in order to physically verify that there's no complicated integrated electronics, but it's not a huge hurdle. < 1755007676 825789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, now I remember: when I was much younger, there was a nearby supermarket which had an entire refrigerated aisle, it had curtains at the ends (that you could walk through) in order to reduce the amount of heat that escaped from it < 1755007810 384643 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except possibly for the fridge and microwave (and CRT televisions), you need the same expertise or permit to disconnect the appliance when you want to get rid of the device. < 1755007838 94264 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it. < 1755007901 300013 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amazon was sued over Alexa's collection of voice data; it doesn't seem to have left much of a dent: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/06/hey-alexa-what-are-you-doing-my-data < 1755007976 147287 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1755007978 665314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: wow, that's dated 2023, I expected it to be earlier < 1755008004 898205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, this is not just about recording, but about using the recordings to train an AI < 1755008006 328564 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i never thought id ever see this channel actually active < 1755008012 936497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…that's even stupider than I expected < 1755008136 932731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may be that the court case is still ongoing, given that it was only a couple of years ago – court cases often take longer to resolve than that < 1755008166 905449 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A small vendor also can't be ordered to un-delete collected data because they'll likely have sold the data already. A large vendor at least could be expected to protect "their" data from further exposure. I think that's one reason why people trust larger companies < 1755008218 68281 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though if Amazon had ever sent the data out (e.g. for contractors to label) it would also no longer be possible for them to destroy it < 1755008219 460533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been sort-of following https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68117049/the-new-york-times-company-v-microsoft-corporation/ which seems to be one of the main court cases about AI training data < 1755008240 226279 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tbh even my own site forbids ai scrape: https://ihatetehbsod.neocities.org/license.txt (thanks to jadeharley for the license btw) < 1755008244 855497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the URL is a bit misleading: OpenAI and Microsoft are both defendants) < 1755008255 629812 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah < 1755008277 286689 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont know why anyone would want to have their stuff used to train ai < 1755008294 914363 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I used to think so, but there are now bluetooth/wifi chips the size of a thumb, e.g. https://www.espressif.com/en/products/socs/esp32 < 1755008328 249972 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The datasheet claims it has a built-in antenna, though in practice you could just use the fridge as the antenna < 1755008472 417820 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes there were earlier ones, but duckduckgo's swamped with recency clickbait and I can't find those now < 1755008739 110909 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :( from 2019, maybe the one you're thinking of: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio ) < 1755008804 36155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: paywalled, but I can figure out the story from the headline – that does seem about right < 1755008879 848621 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: oh the esp32? yeah, heard many good stuff about it. unfortunately all im getting out of my parents and school is an arduino and the crappiest one currently being sold < 1755008945 868972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Surely the ToS say that they "may store audio for training purposes" and that means that they *do* store it because storage is cheap :P And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. ) < 1755008957 19436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it. ← I had thoughts of trying to bootstrap a compiler starting from a platform which was too old and low-powered to be AI-complete, as a method of avoiding AI-complete trusting trust attacks < 1755008966 131366 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it was mostly as an esoidea rather than because I expected it to be useful < 1755008992 638204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, though, it is just about possible to imagine a compiler that contains an AI for inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds < 1755009036 390104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. ← oh no, this is too plausible a possibility < 1755009094 680753 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another Theory exists that states this has already happened. ;=P < 1755009097 972593 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome to the Matrices! < 1755009343 488000 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: 6 millimeters size and low power consumption. yes, I think you're right, that may be possible to hide. certainly in something like a modern washing machine, where you expect a microcontroller and decent power consumption from mains electricity. < 1755009640 988847 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's pretty realistic. you could start from one of these old laptops with a 286 CPU and a few megabytes of hard disk and very little additional storage. I used one of those around 1995, so it shouldn't be impossible to obtain one. But I don't see what you'd use it for. You couldn't just copy the data to a modern computer without < 1755009641 466527 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :reintroducing the same trust problems. < 1755009692 64636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I assume it's happening. Not sure whether it would hold up in court but who's gonna have standing to sue? < 1755009736 108467 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds" => that's not even the biggest harm you could do. a proper virus could instead modify other executables that your user has write access to, even if they aren't created by this compiler. < 1755009765 64684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Sure, you'd do that too. < 1755009832 984453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the Reflections on Trusting Trust lecture's point was that just because you compiled the compiler from scratch doesn't mean your compiler is going to be fine. < 1755009838 832931 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking of that sort of malware for reasons unrelated to AI < 1755009870 865466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the self-insertion into compilers is a crucial part of persistence. < 1755009897 43914 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*nod* < 1755009928 133039 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the compiler needn't have to be involved, the malware part could come from a library that you're using, like a libc component. < 1755009937 299008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least current AI probably isn't good enough to make that sort of malware – and even if it were, it would need either network connections or to store a local model in the executable, either of which I would expect to be detected < 1755009964 593792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it probably isn't a realistic threat unless programs generally become so bloated that it becomes hard to tell whether they contain an AI or not < 1755009972 543836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: okay, the point is that even if you audit all your source code... you may still not be fine < 1755009985 616199 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: doesn't have to be in the executable itself, the executable could have just a stub that loads most of the other parts from data files that you aren't paying much attention to < 1755010012 20258 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :disguised as a useful plugin system < 1755010021 632224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes but if the AI is virally inserting itself into other software it can't expect that other software to ship the same data files < 1755010037 544467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recall a later paper on this, hmm... this one: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html < 1755010050 827242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a program with a plugin system may not be suspicious, a compiler that unexpectedly adds a plugin system to its output that didn't appear in the source code would be very suspicious < 1755010089 624874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the AI is there to circumvent Rice's theorem. < 1755010119 744183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"humans can probably recognize compilers and insert a backdoor, so an AI can do it too" < 1755010163 755334 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old Schneier ♥ < 1755010186 324652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not Schneier's paper of course, but his summary is nice. < 1755010227 87752 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, I think I have a different method of hiding and propagation in mind, not the classic compiler that inserts something into any executable, but I haven't tried to explain what it is. computers have enough large software components installed that you don't need to embed yourself into small progarms like /bin/cat . < 1755010238 766647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, with a big software project it may be hard for humans to recognise whether it's a compiler, or in some cases even to define it < 1755010244 725538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is Chrome (the browser) a compiler, for example? < 1755010297 738453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a compiler needn't be involved at all. < 1755010318 2898 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chrome probably has a wasm compiler in it, but that's not really relevant. < 1755010318 631176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I was responding to int-e, there, sorry < 1755010330 508436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Chrome is not not a compiler. ) < 1755010358 833423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: Yeah, for sure. I don't *like* any of the no-go theorems; that's just how linear algebra is. Similarly, I'm not a big fan of complex-valued Hilbert spaces, but it's the unique viable model. < 1755010421 301495 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I dumped yet another one of my old TAS-theory projects onto the wiki. The [[Witsaff]] language is a proposed sanity-introducing device for computing properties of randomizers. < 1755010425 361998 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean back when that idea came from, compilers were some of the largest programs on a system. that was still true around 2002 when I was making a better version of my 1.44 megabyte boot DOS floppy filled with the most useful utilities I could fit. there's a reason that one has a pascal compiler and not a C compiler. I would have wanted a C < 1755010425 876730 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compiler, but any C compiler I had access to wouldn't have fit. < 1755010444 495566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether it's at all interesting to you, but it's yet another thing that I suspect TAS folks will want to see demo'd before they embrace it. < 1755010506 891592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is it about randomizers or TASes? I am interested in both but consider them largely separate topics < 1755010521 188308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the compiler already has a linker that knows something about the executable format used on the platform, so back then it used to make sense to hide something malicious in a compiler. < 1755010525 437844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the fun of a randomizer is in not knowing where the items are advance, doing it as a TAS completely defeats that < 1755010544 351469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(really, a TAS could probably luck-manipulate the items into being where it wanted them) < 1755010566 133791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am a very experienced watched of Metroid Prime 2 randomizers, to the extent that I can often work out the logic in my head (although I've never actually played the game) < 1755010601 526546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The linked article, "a compositional theory of TAS", was written in the same week. Witsaff is for randomizers, composition is for TASs, and perhaps they separate into two distinct topics. But in my head it's all one big pile of goop. < 1755010633 733722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, many of the randomizers have their logic files publicly available < 1755010651 677429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The link is that many randomizer players use a "tracker", an assistive tool which decodes the logic and enumerates the remaining checks. Witsaff could be used to generate trackers. < 1755010658 356317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it may make more sense to write an importer for them then try to use a new feature < 1755010675 852434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, that doesn't even really count as tool-assisted speedrunning < 1755010689 352137 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is so much less powerful than actual TAS tools are < 1755010713 24340 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not quite good enough for Zelda 3 tourneys, but Zelda 3 randomizer play is expected to be tracker-less. I presume that Witsaff-generated trackers could be good enough to count as cheating. < 1755010713 323797 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :What does TAS stand for? TASBot? < 1755010718 847983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a big difference is that TAS tools are normally able to evaluate hypotheticals about what would happen if the runner gave certain inputs, without actually changing the state of the game < 1755010732 783469 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: "Tool-assisted speedrunning". Any kind of speedrunning that is augmented beyond mere athletics. < 1755010735 357802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: it's the same TAS as in TASbot: it stands for "tool-assisted speedrun" or "tool-assisted superplay" < 1755010738 627652 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok < 1755010739 470810 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks < 1755010750 692966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I disagree with korvo's definition < 1755010784 690728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos is a good introduciton < 1755010828 561286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure, and that's fair. AFAICT your career in TAS has been about quickly putting the console into a particular state, and there's nothing wrong with that framing. I'm probably overly-focused on athletics here. < 1755010830 607319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it links to https://tasvideos.org/Glossary#ToolAssistedSpeedrunTas which might be better < 1755010870 352836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the sort of speedrun you're thinking of is almost universally considered to be not tool-assisted, even if there are separate programs helping < 1755010890 648055 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the input is all done by humans in realtime, and there are no programs directly looking at the internal state of the game, then it's usually considered unassisted < 1755010929 956346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :programs deducing the internal state of the game are normally accepted even in unassisted runs, as long as they don't interact with it directly (this is probably exploitable but I don't think I've seen any successful attempts to exploit it yet) < 1755011003 849616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, a great example is Super Mario Bros. 1 – the pseudorandom number generator for that game is time-based, and the top runners have memorised all the possible random number patterns, so they can tell what their time is by looking at the (pseudorandom) actions of the final boss and knowing how it would act based on what their time is < 1755011039 258801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...heh. infer random seed from world, use that to run a copy of the game in parallel... < 1755011044 138788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(correction: not every possible one, just all the ones that could happen based on the plausible values for their finishing time) < 1755011056 851688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://pellsson.github.io/ < 1755011081 118166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"generally accepted" -- to me this sounds like the kind of thing that each speedrunning community comes to their own conclusion on. < 1755011097 54801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, there is no official arbiter of speedrunning rules < 1755011110 979523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are plenty of observable common patterns < 1755011177 898346 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minecraft is very visible and has (reluctantly?) allowed "calculators" for predicting, uh whatever these underground things with Nether portals are called. < 1755011191 297682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that's a point in your favor that I'm aware of :P < 1755011205 429643 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 => sure, but some trackers or autosplitters or practice tools do read (and sometimes modify) the internal state of old the game. For old console games this is done either through a custom cart or emulation. For new games they just modify the code of the game natively. more importantly, there's often a wide area of things that are too cheaty < 1755011205 923919 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be allowed in real-time speedruns, but not powerful enough to count as tool-assisted. < 1755011260 583095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the SWAGGINZZZ thing (which is what my recent link is about) was more impressive than running just one copy of the game, they had a huge cluster of computers rented and used it to fuzz an efficient path through the rest of the game < 1755011371 789096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're right that an exception is often made for autotrackers < 1755011388 795755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those don't technically need memory watch, they could be made to work via screenscraping instead < 1755011538 976617 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that context matters. If I were able to infer the layout of important items based on the layout of unimportant items, then I'd be worried that that can enable cheating. Whether I do it by RE'ing the RNG or by constructively interfering probabilities shouldn't matter. < 1755011563 58331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so this became something of a major issue in Slay the Spire, I believe < 1755011564 73858 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But as somebody who is just awful, just truly garbage at Mario 1, I like your example. < 1755011582 972001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which allows just that sort of inferring, except that it's sufficiently easy that you can do it in your head < 1755011619 700786 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :an interesting example is the Spelunky 2 True Crown. the True Crown is one of the two joke secret items included in the game. its main drawback is that it forcibly teleports the player every 22 seconds, according to the in-game per-level timer. this teleport can kill you easily by teleporting you into a wall or ground. the True Crown is useful for < 1755011620 201400 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :high-score runs, and those are slow, because they involve staying on most levels for a long time to get as much gold and gems as possible, including digging most of the terrain for gold and gems, and letting the ghost convert almost all gems into diamonds. so for a while when the game was new, some runners used a tool that made beeping sounds < 1755011620 700391 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shortly before the teleport. but since this was implemented as modifying the game to watch an internal value (rather than watching the timer display on screen), players decided that it's banned for unassisted records. < 1755011633 38357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(tl;dr: it has multiple different RNGs, some handling important things and some handling unimportant things, but due to a bug they're all seeded with the same seed, so you can observe the random number pattern on one and it'll be repeated by the others) < 1755011639 710300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: walk into a wall to advance the rng for free... pffft. < 1755011664 510610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah, pretty close to what I was thinking of < 1755011733 478710 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiple RNGs used for different purposes accidentally seeded with the same seed? wow, I hadn't heard of that in a real context, only as a theoretical thing that you must avoid. < 1755011787 325524 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1755011802 340391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slay the Spire speedrunners eventually came up with a patch to seed the RNG properly < 1755011819 819268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, may have been challenge runners rather than speedrunners, it's still much the same community < 1755011820 457096 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, walk into a wall to advance the rng? that's not a thing in Slay the Spire, is it? walking to advance RNG is for nethack or Mario 64 or others < 1755011835 72459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I think int-e was referencing NetHack < 1755011835 970704 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minecraft used to be worse. Back during the alpha/beta days, it used one global RNG for everything. Terrain generation wasn't deterministic at all. They now use algorithms that I introduced in Bravo which set up a per-world RNG and extrapolate from a single noise source, so that chunk order doesn't matter. < 1755011846 911015 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slay the Spire doesn't have a walk command < 1755011884 890316 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :WHAT? why would speedrunners have to do the patching? wasn't that game still in active development at the time, with expansions or something, so the maintainer could fix the bug? < 1755011911 689552 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or did they have to backport to an early version that was no longer maintained because that version was otherwise better? < 1755011956 766704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yeah I was still looking at the nethack link < 1755012015 198453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I don't know the details < 1755012052 192455 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: There's a link to compositional TAS here. To the extent that a "room" exists as a traversable space, it's a different "room" depending on global state like RNGs. But to the extent that multiple traversals don't actually use that state (say, they can walk or dash on a straight line every time), it's the same "room". < 1755012057 666501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: is deterministic generation of chunk a necessary feature in a game like Minecraft? < 1755012085 787683 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and in addition to Bowser's patterns, less importantly also the patterns of which height the hammer bros are < 1755012095 626300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you only play it once anyway, right :P < 1755012117 324702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: at least from my experience with NH4, it's an improvement to the game but not completely necessary: you need it to allow multiple players to play "in the same world" which is a feature that many people don't care about but some might < 1755012153 855545 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah it will help with keeping multiplayer games consistent < 1755012189 384928 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think for something like Minecraft or Factorio, you can have the server generate chunks whenever someone discovers them and send them to the clients, but deterministic generation is usually easier. Factorio has deterministic and reproducible lazy map generation. < 1755012197 345402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :To be clear... I think personally I generally want this kind of determinism in the game. < 1755012198 190809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :either multiplayer, or seeded singleplayer < 1755012212 46456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But what I want isn't very objective ;) < 1755012221 978372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I went to a lot of effort implementing it in NetHack4 because I thought it was a desirable feature < 1755012290 177704 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: or the server could even just generate a fresh seed whenever a new map chunk is generated, or periodically for other random events in the game, and send it to the clients who compute the map generation with the same result as the server, and the frequent fresh reseeding would make this unpredictable. < 1755012387 802083 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Multiplayer AceHack really, really pwnd 😌 < 1755012391 272364 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it's ... complicated. sometimes you want reproducibility, sometimes you don't because eg. you want to practice a section from a savestate and want the randomness to vary after loading the savestate, to train for a real run where you won't be able to predict the state of the randomness because it will change based on your previous inputs. < 1755012428 485867 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :How did You do it again? With Threads? Or multiple Processes and IPC? < 1755012444 236461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiple processes communicating primarily via the save file < 1755012456 109279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a little bit of IPC involved for synchronisation but it mostly wasn't IPC < 1755012459 796454 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you could also want reproducibility to organized versus matches in a tournament with the same seed. < 1755012467 1907 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e, wib_jonas: For terrain generation, there's also accessibility concerns. We generally want rolling-hills terrain to be sufficiently smooth that the player can navigate it. This means that e.g. Minecraft terrain has to be generated from some reasonably-continuous noise rather than pure white noise. < 1755012476 652096 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort of like duplicate bridge, but without the bridge. < 1755012477 434815 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ic < 1755012511 153043 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is a Bravo plugin that makes Pandora (from Avatar) floating islands in the sky, and even that plugin uses smoothed noise so that the islands are contiguous and form little spindly land bridges. < 1755012530 286929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah I imagine that is challenging if you want to make generation of chunks independent of the order they're generated in < 1755012557 636725 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sure, but that doesn't really change much of this. it makes *lazy* terrain generation more difficult (meaning generating parts of a map on demand instead of the whole map in advance), but I don't think it makes determinism at all. < 1755012559 848726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried implementing a maze generator like that once < 1755012571 312994 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, that's not quite true < 1755012583 147560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. trying to make a perfect maze where there's exactly one path from any location to any other, but where the chunks could be generated in any order < 1755012586 10997 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does impact determinism a bit, but I don't think that causes too much difficulties < 1755012599 833292 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Oh! Of course, yes. Minecraft worlds are far too large to generate offline, or at least too large for me. < 1755012605 219722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my solution was technically correct but the edges of the chunks were too obvious in the resulting maze < 1755012625 107584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure how to fix it < 1755012634 146026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, tricky < 1755012653 210342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, we could decompose this into a nicely multi-staged programming problem. We have a stage that defines the world, then a stage that randomizes the terrain, and finally a stage that generates the terrain. The generation can't change the randomization and is determined by it. < 1755012694 396272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem collapses to that of generating a function from Z² to Z with exactly one local minimum < 1755012717 80451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(then you can connect each location to a random adjacent location with lower value and you get a maze) < 1755012780 515421 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755012947 219857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If the maze is hard enough then the obviousness could become a feature. One of Zenorogue's non-Euclidean games is "hyperrogue", like Nethack on hyperbolic tiling. The obviousness of the chunks helps the player figure out which region they are in or headed towards. > 1755012972 899591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Flashgutten 5* 10New user account < 1755013024 625821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I have been working on a HyperRogue variant/derivative for a few years now < 1755013030 139756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm very familiar with it < 1755013036 371919 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, TIL. Good times. < 1755013084 810096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the official version balances very unlike NetHack and is much closer to a puzzle collection than a roguelike – part of my goal with the variant is to move the balance point more towards that of a traditional roguelike) < 1755013183 738495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, with the exception of Crossroads and theoretically Ocean, your actions in one land have only minimal effects on how the game plays unless you get at least 25 treasures in a land, which is nearly always an incorrect decision given that optimal strategy typically involves getting only 10 from the lands you visit < 1755013230 833461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the game decomposes into a puzzle gauntlet of "nine lands, Hell, Orb of Yendor" with almost all the puzzles being unrelated to each other, you just have to solve them in order < 1755013383 192973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and when you realise that, playing the game as intended doesn't make much sense any more, you may as well play the puzzles individually) < 1755013403 694157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the big ideas behind my variant was to swap the 10 and 25 < 1755013414 803953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which really changes the way the game plays < 1755013523 784993 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a big increase in difficulty, but I can understand the motivation. < 1755013531 456416 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Can You please give an Example? You mean You should also potentially get the BoH or Shield of Reflection from MinesEnd or Vlad or Jubilex? < 1755013565 55749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: a) I agree, and b) I am trying to balance around it (but the game was almost certainly too easy for experienced players beforehand) < 1755013599 107339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I'm not sure I understand the question – it looks like you're referring to something I said earlier but I'm not sure what < 1755013626 31495 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I probably did not understand Your 10/25 Swap properly at all < 1755013638 163268 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Treasures versus Lands < 1755013639 518368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I was talking about HyperRogue rather than NetHack – it won't make much sense in the context of the wrong game < 1755013645 724845 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, ic < 1755013657 535512 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION does not know HyperRogue yet
< 1755013706 2871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lands in HyperRogue are like branches in NetHack, treasures are scattered all around the floor of lands (each land has a different treasure) and make the land they're found in more dangerous, but also work towards completing the game, and can have an influence on other lands sometimes < 1755013737 852384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so gameplay in HyperRogue at the moment is normally about entering a land, picking up the minimum number of treasures you need to work towards completing the game, then leaving because the land is dangerous now < 1755013748 751351 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok < 1755013795 180894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in vanilla HyperRogue you need 10 treasures each from 9 different lands to unlock the main milestone towards game completion, but need 25 treasures from the same land to begin influencing most other lands (and even then the influence is usually quite minor) < 1755013812 288838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the lands almost play out as completely unrelated < 1755013828 123191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the treasures are the only thing that defines the character – you don't have upgradeable equipment or levels or max HP < 1755013891 93205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I only play HyperRogue in winter because it has an immediate mode UI and I don't like how much electricity that uses > 1755013914 904240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163320&oldid=163315 5* 03Flashgutten 5* (+264) 10/* Introductions */ < 1755013922 397994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in winter, the electricity is less wasted because the waste heat goes towards heating the house) < 1755013951 113480 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Flashgutten < 1755013958 351189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome Flashgutten < 1755013962 617247 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Flashgutten: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1755013975 687500 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although I see you found the wiki already < 1755013984 421070 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah < 1755014013 273549 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Flashgutten < 1755014018 983961 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1755014245 40423 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :We were in Kew yesterday, and one of their glasshouses (the Princess of Wales one) had an _incredible_ temperature gradient in the vertical direction. You went up (or down) a meter, and it was like a completely different thing. < 1755014636 260906 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My house currently has a gradient of maybe 0.5 C°/m or so. It's the hottest time of the year in the Pacific Northwest. < 1755014715 778384 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, not a gradient, more like a thermocline. You can feel it when traversing the stairs. < 1755015360 650670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering how easy it would be to write a language where you express a UI as though it were an immediate mode UI, but it gets compiled into something more efficient < 1755015368 79570 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I vaguely expect it to have been done already < 1755015417 90319 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :surely that's a monad :P < 1755015439 91019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ContT, specifically. You can apply it to something like GL. I think there's an old Dan Piponi post about it. < 1755015486 873795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Found it: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2011/10/quick-and-dirty-reinversion-of-control.html < 1755015490 160972 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's basically that technique I was planning to use to implement Feather before I decided it wouldn't work < 1755015543 126935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the trick is in how the *writes* are implemented – you revert the program to the point at which the value was read, then rerun with the new value < 1755015580 279080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think monads are quite the right abstraction because this isn't linear – if you do (a + b) * (c + d) and one of the variables changes, you want to rerun its addition and the multiplication, but not the other addition < 1755015595 795312 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first comment mentions https://hackage.haskell.org/package/operational which was very trendy in those days. < 1755015645 610663 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I fell out of love with all of this once I understood how continuations are related to actors; I chose actors because enumeration leads to better management of capabilities. Like, a Haskell lambda doesn't have any syntactic indication of its closure, while an actor can be forced to explicitly declare every local reference. < 1755015690 57282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: thanks for the link – this might be useful for something else I've been thinking about < 1755015741 478268 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her) < 1755015768 552441 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh yeah, it's quite cool. I was about 10% of the way into building a game engine for Haskell based on this stuff before I realized that it was fundamentally not a good path forward due to compile times, versioning, and syntactic ceremony. Maybe now it'd be better with Nix and nixpkgs. < 1755015859 339982 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is probably better for building esolangs with (although in my case I might be trying to translate it from Haskell to an esolang…) < 1755015867 317697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, actually I was using `lens`, also trendy at the time. Very cool to have a generic notion of assignment and mutation over any Traversable. < 1755015879 81382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lens used to be a meme on this channel < 1755015897 981184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a pity because it probably reduced the odds of any constructive discussions about it < 1755015985 59901 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: There is the Lobster language, which isn't exactly immediate-mode, but certainly tastes like it. https://www.strlen.com/lobster/ < 1755016249 419073 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1755016407 63375 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her) < 1755016851 645597 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, something we didn't cover at all: Witsaff is declarative! In this sense, it's a big improvement on hand-rolled towers of Python for implementing logic. I know some randomizer communities are playing with SMT solvers for this, but I'd like to think that Witsaff is more readable. It's certainly more writable; I tested by using it to take notes on Jets of Time. < 1755016872 474475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do agree with you that we can go look up the logics on GitHub, but 2400 lines of Python is something of a turn-off for me. > 1755016967 899708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lobster14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163321 5* 03Corbin 5* (+550) 10Stub a WVO language that keeps re-appearing in my periphery. < 1755017100 757233 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep" => the way it's phrased it sounds like a US suburban thing. I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors. > 1755017285 304636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wouter van Oortmerssen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163322&oldid=16155 5* 03Corbin 5* (+31) 10Update links, add bluelinks. < 1755017350 829813 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, "variable opacity door", the supermarkets here sometimes have freezers with one, not as a feature but because the inside of the door gets frosty which makes it opaque. < 1755017834 417821 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whoa, that SWAGGINZZZ nethack run sounds interesting, I should look at that > 1755017862 927507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163323&oldid=163309 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-9) 10 > 1755017938 473939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Aquateraneal 5* 10New user account < 1755017978 924695 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so that figured out the seed and from then on it could manipulate randomness by simulating most of the game? < 1755017998 681857 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would of course be impossible in something like nethack4 < 1755018038 595802 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the server at least generated the seed properly, it's not like the DOS speedrun that uses only the system time, right? < 1755018091 553978 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh nice < 1755018136 902968 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755018149 525588 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so they used the randomness in the initial inventory, because it's really fast to brute-force all 2**32 starting seeds that way. < 1755018150 112349 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Flashgutten < 1755018154 838379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: at least the randomizer that I'm aware of had declarative logic implemented in JSON < 1755018165 297305 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, not implemented, described in JSON < 1755018188 569223 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, this is why you should use at least 96 bits of entropy for a random seed, so that your player can't have seen the same seed ever < 1755018202 328600 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, that is a definite improvement. < 1755018207 196815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors. ← the report actually mentioned that as a possibility > 1755018219 403140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Flashgutten14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163324 5* 03Flashgutten 5* (+2108) 10I am flashgutten < 1755018243 342622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was planning to write my own placement algorithm, that took such a description as input and output a set of item locations < 1755018254 269606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with a bias towards trying to produce interesting situations < 1755018319 659820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I tried following Super Metroid randomizers before moving onto Metroid Prime 2, but the placements in Super Metroid just usually aren't very interesting and the strategies often end up fairly formulaic – Metroid Prime 2 somehow ends up being exceedingly good for randomizers, I think mostly because its map is designed as a series of interlocking loops and that gives a high potential for interesting paths0 > 1755018379 579701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163325&oldid=163320 5* 03Aquateraneal 5* (+159) 10 > 1755018468 288387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aquateraneal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163326 5* 03Aquateraneal 5* (+13) 10Created page with "i is a potato" < 1755018593 773568 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the Super Metroid community is doing map randomizers now. It's one of those games where I think Witsaff could help generate optimal routes for major/minor, Chozo, etc. < 1755018631 357011 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But map randomization is apparently a very tricky computational problem. They pre-generate like 10k maps per season and then generate seeds upon a randomly-chosen map. The birthday paradox means that occasionally runners will recognize maps or submaps. < 1755018663 233860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I suppose it's a special case of But Is It Art? and not obviously a special case of anything saner, so it's not surprising that it's hard, but I'd have expected it to be more like Wang tiling. < 1755018668 957259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the metroid prime series once had a sort-of working map randomizer, but the maps didn't connect up at all, they were just trees < 1755018702 17225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think it got abandoned, eventually < 1755019261 769062 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that Prime 1's unique approach to level-building primitives is part of that story. It's not nicely laid out on a grid either. < 1755019294 881805 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: where Super Metroid randomizer gets interesting is that, at least in SMRAT and similar settings, you can gain a large edge if you know the randomizer logic well and use it to predict where items can be. this can get surprisingly deep and some players are very good in it, though the basics are easy to understand. it is kind of mind bending because you have to keep track of two different logics: < 1755019300 872189 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is what player tricks the randomizer allows when it makes sure that the map can be completed, which in the case of SMRAT is only very basic intended gameplay tactics, and what tricks you are willing to do in the run. < 1755019334 818901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, this comes up in Metroid Prime 2, too < 1755019356 737219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm better at it than some of the actual runners (although it's probably easier when you don't have to think about actually playing the game at the same time) < 1755019432 81543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like the Varia suit can't be in places accessible only through heated rooms except for one, because Varia protects you from them, and there are even fewer valid areas for the Gravity suit, and the suits are the most important items so you want to find them efficiently. < 1755019435 189937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MP2 tricks are really interesting because there are some tricks that are very general but also very slow < 1755019462 37592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to watch a lot of SMRAT for a while, but I no longer watch them much < 1755019483 938750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although out-of-bounds tricks were banned in one of the most recent tournaments because they were making things a bit too repetitive < 1755019505 728758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and some people were so good at them that they were less of an interesting tradeoff > 1755020039 66211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163327&oldid=163290 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+3) 10 < 1755020364 963090 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755020396 360378 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"+127 Magicbane" hehe, that's a weird idea, even in context of what you'd do with random manipulation to allow an easy ascension < 1755020541 806881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like going too close to +127 / -128 for fear of char overflow messing up calculations somewhere < 1755020648 616138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd around 120 scrolls of enchant weapon, which is doable with farming, and for most scrolls you need to pass an 1/n probability check to enchant further from enchantment n, and a 1/3 probability check to make the weapon survive. I didn't even remember the first of those, because you never enchant weapons so high that it matters. < 1755020723 149757 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the second check is done even if the first check fails IIUC < 1755020749 241594 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's quite reasonable < 1755020816 608709 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you knew the rng state wouldn't you also just know when the next attack would overflow?) < 1755020846 442948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just that, if you curbstomp the game by manipulating randomness, a +127 Magicbane doesn't sound like the most efficient thing to do < 1755020887 297555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: yes, that's what SWAGGINZZZ effectively did < 1755020892 909416 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, exactly. This is why Witsaff has the $ technique blocks. The idea is that *if* a player can perform a certain technique, then the tracker can indicate what's logically available *for them*, while still predicting probabilities based on a pre-trained matrix where the technique is disabled. < 1755020940 994609 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This leads to a tracker that can predict a sequence break, more or less. Like, predicting multiple out-of-logic checks which each have high probability to enable the next check. < 1755020968 831522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: my method of handling that in my own version was for technique requirements to be treated similarly to item requirements, needing 25 missiles to get through a door is similar to needing 3 skill in standable terrain (at least if missiles are easy to recharge) < 1755021009 473917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can treat them the same way in the implementation and just tweak its knowledge of the default "starting items" to control what tricks you're able to do < 1755021227 957639 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, 90 wishes from just the fountain, or are there wands in between? can you get multiple wishes from a single fountain? < 1755021277 952206 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1755021292 38018 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1755021378 736114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can get multiple wishes from a fountain < 1755021392 663316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the odds are very low, but that doesn't bother a TAS < 1755021485 374186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you don't need to do anything special between the wishes, like sacrifice to regain alignment or luck? < 1755021488 378168 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow < 1755021494 589140 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never try to go for fountain wishes < 1755021504 260668 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't know their rules < 1755021508 588571 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I barely even remember how thrones work < 1755021601 768772 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, how does "Phase-jump to priest" on Astral work? does that mean polymorphing to a Xorn? < 1755021613 648116 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait < 1755021619 328040 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this isn't Astral, it's the Sanctum < 1755021768 461115 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, I can't get the dumplog from the link in the article < 1755021796 398948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but also wow < 1755021992 784248 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://archive.alt.org/dumplog/SWAGGINZZZ/1546732576.nh361.txt works > 1755021999 818842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163328&oldid=121014 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */ mor golf < 1755022014 60350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the usual dumpfile search tools can't find it either < 1755022054 283580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :2087 turns < 1755022075 857776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ascending while hallucinating is something special, especially because I don't think the character had knowledge that that was the correct altar (the player did via the RNG sync) < 1755022078 110317 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Flashgutten < 1755022401 384824 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't the game tell you the name of the god if you're standing on the high altar, even when hally? < 1755022487 790138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: possibly but I can't tell from the log, it didn't nearlook < 1755022496 990675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think you normally just get a hallu god < 1755022522 8975 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1755022543 383869 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you try to sacrifice an ordinary monster to find out? < 1755022594 932804 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why are there so many "poobah" in the log? is that a hallu thing? < 1755022608 185776 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those priests or angels? < 1755022627 19170 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't be angels, Moloch doesn't have angels < 1755022637 545756 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1755022683 678631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :priests, I think, and yes a hallu thing < 1755022782 654698 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a "The poobah of your Friend the Computer" and "The high poobah of the Central Bank of Yendor", so you must be right about randomized god names < 1755022806 24927 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that must be new after 3.4.3 < 1755023979 312829 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the two different brands of liquid soap end up forming distinct layers when I refill. the better soap seems to be heavier. I wonder if I should do experiments to find out if it's the better soap that's unusually heavy, or the worse soap is unusually light, or it's not a density difference but some weird effect from refilling (unlikely). > 1755024559 843912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* 10New user account > 1755024975 934569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163329&oldid=163325 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+198) 10 > 1755025117 482682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163330&oldid=163329 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+52) 10 > 1755025195 246981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAPPA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163331&oldid=155899 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10 < 1755025692 801851 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1755025973 492360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163332 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+136) 10Created page with "Hello. I create the dumbest esolangs, and my username pretty much says it all. ===List of my esolangs=== [[]]
[[]]
[[]]
..." < 1755026075 247320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, claiming to create the dumbest esolangs is a pretty bold claim < 1755026079 265578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some really dumb esolangs out there < 1755026561 178591 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing < 1755026590 337486 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1755026794 419782 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, this is such a tease and letdown. new CodeParade video, "palindromes" in the title. in the opening he reads a phrase that clearly wants to be a palindrome because it's meaningful backwards. at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap08_AGPh8s the palindromes says "DNA wastewater cessation", which backwards starts with "Noita's secret". but the video says NOTHING AT ALL about the long unsolved secret < 1755026800 449149 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :message in Noita! < 1755028264 132796 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing < 1755028302 542216 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755028310 959732 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin < 1755028316 367075 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1755028378 912982 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian > 1755029789 65380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163333 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+48) 10Created page with "Describe me and add ~~~~ after." > 1755029819 848702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163334&oldid=163333 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+6) 10 > 1755030480 644728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163335 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+102) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} =Short Description= The same [[bf]] but without "<",">",",", only "+","-","." but "." here "A"" > 1755031731 829232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Insulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163336&oldid=163317 5* 03Insulation 5* (+216) 10 < 1755032240 834388 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1755032245 71473 :oren!~oren@ec2-44-201-23-133.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1755032260 427020 :oren!~oren@ec2-44-201-23-133.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN #esolangs oren :Oren Watson < 1755032491 166571 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1755033110 619685 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1755033529 427455 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755037391 656800 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night > 1755037531 880403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163337&oldid=163247 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+7) 10 > 1755037597 32818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163338&oldid=163128 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+221) 10 > 1755037683 795911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:APGsembly14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163339 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+279) 10Created page with "Does this have input/output? ~~~~" > 1755037768 521962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zowepsilon 5* 10New user account < 1755039350 136496 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1755039817 773686 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1755041462 485282 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1755042370 993169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163340&oldid=163316 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+66) 10