< 1755564852 467683 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.101.52.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1755566099 629293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1755566240 811445 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement < 1755569486 113410 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.170 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8 < 1755570568 68803 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1755574148 669049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163606&oldid=163323 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+15) 10 > 1755574234 958511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163607&oldid=163606 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+0) 10 > 1755575065 715328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/qoob derivatives14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163608&oldid=161082 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+466) 10Add example tag system < 1755575181 913693 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is something I am not sure where to write this. < 1755575242 204524 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The TV provider changed the TV again. Some people here still want to watch TV, and now it uses the TiVo Android TV, and it cannot be connected to the VCR, and the UI is even worse than it was before, and an external caption decoder cannot be used. I was trying to see if I could make it by myself in a better way. < 1755575324 567088 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found the TV guide data in XML format (the time zone is wrong, but that is easy to work around). I also found the CBC television by internet, but it is M3U file that links to the video files that are only a few seconds each; why do they do it so badly? VLC can play them, but it says the version number is wrong if I try to play the M3U file directly. < 1755575643 619376 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are the designs this bad? > 1755575672 179433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163609&oldid=163607 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+82) 10 > 1755575829 704446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163610&oldid=163609 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-27) 10 > 1755576031 732914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163611&oldid=162641 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+200) 10 < 1755579319 71337 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.58.23.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull < 1755579752 503030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755581279 282572 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo < 1755581875 506180 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755581948 866564 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort < 1755584137 213615 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755584173 458185 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her) < 1755585035 826533 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1755586231 898620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Delete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163612&oldid=163551 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* */ < 1755589313 111777 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest66 < 1755589373 575635 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esolangs :does anyone know how to contact the admins so that i can finally have a acc i've been trying to get an acc for like two hours < 1755589399 443753 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Client Quit < 1755589695 663329 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.170 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755590162 696986 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1755591080 357348 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :yo < 1755591329 956218 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1755592602 534786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163613&oldid=163594 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+17) 10 < 1755592858 98803 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split < 1755593176 789241 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse > 1755593580 732049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163614&oldid=163511 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-2) 10/* See also */ > 1755594176 239602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163615&oldid=163614 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+18) 10 > 1755594187 308580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163616 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+838) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} '''Dumbascii-2''' is essentially the same as [[Dumbascii]], it just adds two commands and custom file extension. =Language Overview= Dumbascii-2, like [[Dumbascii]], works with outputting ASCII characters, but it uses .dumbascii instead of .txt < 1755594303 113348 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas < 1755594570 169513 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever implemented sorting strings in an order something like libc's strverscmp function or (ls -v), which is mostly asciibetical order but sequences of digits are sorted primarily by their numeric value so "foo9" is before "foo10"? I just implemented a simple version (not equivalent to the libc function; still a total order on strings so I < 1755594570 668415 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :get a consistent sort result), and I found it annoying to implement and I'm not satisfied with my implementation. < 1755595003 17520 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not even trying to make it particularly efficient > 1755595082 686002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163617&oldid=163616 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+7) 10/* See Also */ < 1755595319 544551 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://dpaste.com/8M8Y8T7P9.txt shows my current implementation, the one that I'm not satisfied with > 1755596196 663656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everybody!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1657) 10new lanaguge droped > 1755596248 67868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163619&oldid=162618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10/* Esolangs */ > 1755596354 310763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everybody!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163620&oldid=163618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+141) 10 > 1755596448 933909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07@everyone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163621&oldid=156639 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+105) 10 < 1755601358 875341 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755601369 956786 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔 > 1755602102 941573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163622 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+2683) 10Created page with "'''Needle''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]. ==Description== The language uses wrapping tape of 3 cells and program inside an infinite loop * _ - decrements current cell and moves right. Decrementing zero does nothing. * (...) > 1755602214 428058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163623&oldid=163622 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+26) 10 > 1755602293 958187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163624&oldid=148998 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+24) 10 > 1755602332 794598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163625&oldid=163623 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10 < 1755602581 432101 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current X11, is < 1755602583 787734 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :argh < 1755602703 962247 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current X11, can a program request the mouse position at a higher space resolution and time resolution as the display has? like, if I'm running the display at 1920x1024 pixels and 60 frames/s refresh, can I get the mouse position every 1/240 s and at a precision of half a screen pixel? < 1755602724 869470 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1755602769 742846 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fine if the events are delivered to the program only 60 times per second, as long as I get four positions at that point < 1755602904 490485 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1755605567 222706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163626 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+2870) 10Created page with "{{wip}} '''Free''' is a [[:Category:Joke languages|joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] created as a parody language where the syntax is based entirely on digits and a few special symbols. The idea behind Free is that "syntax is price": every command cor > 1755605631 209725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163627&oldid=163626 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+33) 10/* Examples */ > 1755605667 105870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163628&oldid=163627 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-21) 10/* See also */ < 1755606845 879986 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755606859 102706 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith < 1755606938 885935 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755606952 145821 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp < 1755607616 877441 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still passionately hate how in vim, if you delete a line that a bookmarks point to then the bookmark will no longer exist rather than point to the previous or next existing line! < 1755608210 838343 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1755608795 526865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1755608891 869097 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755608916 571536 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm < 1755611416 861303 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: XIQueryPointer seems to (in theory) return fractional pixels. `xinput --test-xi2` to see if your device actually reports it < 1755611695 905490 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does anyone know an existing language for the kind of geometric constraints used for CAD sketching? < 1755611889 361808 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The closest I've found is, Solvespace (solvespace.com) saves its sketches in a plain text language, though it's not designed to be used by humans directly < 1755612882 895016 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: there's metafont and metapost, but they're very limited in the kind of constraints, only linear and you have to be very careful with the precision < 1755612892 201688 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that's probably not what you want < 1755612911 887368 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: thank you, I'll look at that < 1755612970 480370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION continues to question whether putting backspace next to newline was a sensible keyboard layout decision
< 1755612984 618996 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes more sense in old-fashioned typewriters where backspace doesn't correct errors anyway, so you would hardly ever have to use it < 1755613004 857532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now we're stuck with this layout.... FOREVER < 1755613048 458370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the intended purpose of the backspace key on typewriters was to do overstrikes, like e backspace ` to create è, but IIRC you could also do that by holding down the space key and then tapping the characters you wanted to overstrike) < 1755613106 659032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I remember how some early typewriters didn't have 0 or 1 keys, you were supposed to use capital O and capital I instead < 1755613206 895574 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*nod* < 1755613347 501357 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some people move backspace over to the left, to either capslock or tab, I don't remember which < 1755613351 157930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've read teaching manuals for typewriter operators, early typewriters had no way to correct mistakes short of retyping the entire page on a new sheet of paper, so they were very concerned with minimizing input errors < 1755613373 378965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :caps lock is perhaps the most "competed" key on custom keyboard layouts < 1755613405 499269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use it for compose, it's easier to type than shift-altgr (which doesn't even seem to work on my current OS) < 1755613417 971261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, altgr-shift < 1755613423 271242 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, in text editors I sometimes just use control-H bound to backspace, for less hand movement < 1755613455 751108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Emacs bindings have ctrl-d as backspace, I think < 1755613480 23447 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both esc and ctrl are commonly mapped over the caps lock location < 1755613492 720145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(esc for vim users and ctrl for Emacs users, typically) < 1755613508 412897 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :emacs is a newfangled thingy, control-h preserved as backspace in text editors is at least as old as wordstar, probably older < 1755613517 126929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find the caps lock feature useful occasionally but I don't use it often enough for it to have its own dedicated key, so I bind it to shift-shift < 1755613534 278253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i.e. you use one shift key to modify the other shift key) < 1755613548 438764 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Mother in her Job at the Post Office already had an electric Typewriter with a special Key that erased the last Character with Tipp-Ex-Fluid < 1755613553 842233 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I know, emacs is actually older, but I hadn't met emacs until later < 1755613579 987639 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: control-D? I find that suspicious. < 1755613636 520030 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the emacs documentation still has an FAQ along the lines of "I keep pressing backspace but it just makes the help menu appear" and the response is along the lines of "rebind all your other applications to no longer use backspace/Ctrl-H as a delete key then you'll stop making that mistake", which struck me as incredibly arrogant < 1755613660 59785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(modern terminals usually bind backspace to Ctrl-? rather than Ctrl-H, which avoids that problem) < 1755613678 991610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, Ctrl-D is delete forwards, not delete backwards < 1755613721 562087 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least with my bindings < 1755613726 39336 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I changed it? < 1755613814 318902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Deletion.html implies that that is the default and there isn't a ctrl-letter combination for delete-backwards-char, which is really surprising to me < 1755613818 668095 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, I think in emacs control-D and alt-D deletes forwards, control-? and alt-control-? delete backwards < 1755613836 891596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-? deletes forwards for me < 1755613841 325428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the GUI version < 1755613852 710528 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh... < 1755613861 871097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no < 1755613869 797065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-? is apparently an undo command in the GUI ersion < 1755613877 112477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I was testing out deletions recently, so… > 1755614025 743387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mama,ILearnedhowto do14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163629&oldid=163605 5* 03A() 5* (+75) 10/* Hello */ < 1755614097 378151 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think undo should be control-_ , maybe you have some keyboard layout confusion < 1755614115 238909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: C-? is apparently specifically an undo for undos < 1755614130 838041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-_ will undo other C-_ commands if you move the cursor in between, presumably C-? means you don't have to move the cursor < 1755614193 75332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in terminals, C-? presumably acts like backspace because they have the same code) < 1755614280 950557 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, I think you lost me. I might be wrong about anything I say about emacs, I don't really use it anymore. < 1755614300 118168 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not really into deep emacs lore, even though I use it as my primary editor < 1755614304 438040 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for programming at least < 1755614339 680563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I still use three different editors on a regular basis (there are two more that I used to use) < 1755614378 915449 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that said, vim is configured by default to accept control-H as backspace in insert mode. I've configured at least one non-emacs non-vim editor to accept control-J as newline (I think it already accepted control-H as backspace, but control-J was bound to something else) < 1755614418 349450 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"deep emacs lore" how you backspace counts as deep lore? < 1755614438 819433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe! it was historically very complicated < 1755614447 147819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think early shells used a printable character as backspace, maybe #? < 1755614471 78884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it just appeared on the command line and you had to remember that neither it nor the previous character counted < 1755614509 151520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I think that setting still exists on modern computers but is not normally enabled < 1755614544 59596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : erase = ^?; kill = ^U; eof = ^D; eol = ; < 1755614646 229681 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think that's right about the terminal, I think even early unix terminals used backspace as the backspace key, not a printable character, though they may have *echoed* it differently for hardcopy terminals (as opposed to crts), but it's possible that hash mark was used as the input character for either delete line or delete word < 1755614673 29960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: it is possible that the time I am thinking about was in the era of hardcopy terminals < 1755614723 421905 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I just don't think anyone ever used a printable character to input backspace on them. > 1755614819 781260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mama,ILearnedhowto do14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163630&oldid=163629 5* 03A() 5* (+60) 10/* Hello */ < 1755614879 207008 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, on vim I mostly use control-C instead of escape, also for finger movement save without having to change any layout < 1755614908 903796 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few exceptions when control-C doesn't work, but they rarely come up < 1755614964 620058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so on old Unix, apparently the backspace key sent SIGINT (equivalent of ctrl-C in modern Unix) < 1755614998 729511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I mean the delete key < 1755615002 824378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or whichever one sends Ctrl-? < 1755615025 137377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/13090 < 1755615040 69735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also specifies # to delete one character and @ to delete the line < 1755615065 794043 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not saying that it's the backspace *key*, I'm saying you use a control character, not a printable character, to input a backspace on even old unix < 1755615079 649387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I linked an answer saying that it's a printable character < 1755615141 36529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another source: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/57831 < 1755615202 761263 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see. I may be mistaken about the unix history then. > 1755615289 835106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163631&oldid=163093 5* 03A() 5* (+27) 10 < 1755615401 864767 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755615415 78251 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in < 1755615639 464939 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1755616010 974116 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons > 1755617887 65234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Erix0815 5* 10New user account < 1755618933 936269 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: interesting, I didn't know that. (I also don't recall this being a feature in drawing languages post-TeX, like tikz…) < 1755619433 72951 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind more languages having syntactic built-ins for linear equalities. And inequalities too, they're not that much slower. (It's even called linear "programming".) < 1755619576 389856 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1755620626 676084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some golfing languages have builtins for finding roots of polynomials, which seems related < 1755621886 187384 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's the one I'm thinking of, well... that's not multivariate polynomials. That language doesn't even have variables. < 1755622016 739859 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Multivariate is mainly interesting because it connects the program with something other than memory or control flow. < 1755622072 211888 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most related thing in mainstream languages might be type inference < 1755622566 862826 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Topology ends up being an important nuance. E has both `x..y` and `x..!y` operators for ranges, and those can express inequalities and ranges. < 1755622768 333453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: ah, you're thinking in terms of something that isn't just a library, but baked in more heavily to the language? < 1755622814 905323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are Prologs with constraint solvers, that can solve equation systems at a level that feels closer to the language than that of a typical library (but in some cases it's nonetheless implemented as a library) < 1755623046 810117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :inclusive/exclusive range syntax is interesting because languages have mostly agreed on .. for ranges nowadays, but differ in how they indicate inclusive/exclusive < 1755623061 823252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Perl 6 has .. inclusive ..^ exclusive and Rust has ..= inclusive .. exclusive < 1755623119 718017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VHDL has "to" for a forward range and "downto" for a backward range < 1755623178 534056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("downto" is commonly used in VHDL because it often represents numbers as arrays of bits, and the convention is to use big-endian order for the elements but little-endian order for the indexes, so the arrays get indexed backwards) < 1755623293 423058 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, I'm looking up the Prolog libraries. It seems they're all named CLP, like CLP(R) for reals. < 1755623304 650316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in SWI-Prolog, yes < 1755623340 657904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also whether the range is enumerable. In E or Haskell, it always is enumerable; this leads to the fun situation where a range of Doubles has quite a few elements. ("Long iterator! Longer than you think!") I fixed this in Monte, but only by separating range queries from enumerations. < 1755623372 170309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a sense, enumerating a range of doubles feels like a failure of abstraction < 1755623393 224211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you actually care about the exact set of numbers a double can represent, rather than real numbers in genral < 1755623406 263538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have seen the former case come up, but only in the context of modelling the behaviour of a program that uses floating-point internally) < 1755623408 154470 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: That's a common pattern in Prolog. The idea is that CLP is something done over a chosen domain, and the shape of the domain matters a lot. The key phrase "finite domain" will help, since CLP(FD) is a common thing too. < 1755623438 951285 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Another example is CHR, which has a wiki page; it requires a host language, so there's CHR(Prolog), CHR(Java), etc.) < 1755623467 47129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently there was a fork of CLP(FD) called CLP(Z) – a SWI-Prolog project I contributed to used the latter < 1755623487 342906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know what the difference is/was < 1755623551 79763 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, solving over integers is quite a bit more difficult than reals (at least as used in CAD geometry), so I'm avoiding that < 1755623577 963352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of solving over reals as being harder simply due to the difficulty of expressing the resulting values < 1755623584 133860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you allow approximate solutions < 1755623614 871922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess for CAD, you have an acceptable tolerance and as long as the solution is within tolerance, you're OK < 1755623780 558949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Solving for computable reals is usually a matter of fighting with opaque libraries with bad ergonomics. FEM doesn't work right with computable reals, but that's a limitation in FEM that recent work may have fixed (search "walk on stars", currently reading http://rohansawhney.io/RohanSawhneyPhDThesis.pdf) < 1755623942 310728 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quadratic equations are NP-hard to solve over integers (an old result from Adleman). Though, I just looked it up for quadratic real equations, and coincidentally it's of similar complexity. https://mathoverflow.net/questions/153436/ < 1755624421 926935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a clever encoding. Integers are worse because they scale all the way up to Diophantine equations, IMO, but that might be a computability-theory perspective. < 1755624422 886126 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Server closed connection < 1755624780 583850 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, with integers it's easy to bump into undecidability < 1755624931 659722 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually CAD constraints can be quite subtle. Identifying whether a (unique) solution exists is the hard part, not expressing it to more precision. It's easy to build complicated linkages and then assert that two points can be made to coincide < 1755625075 118948 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A fully constrained (no continuous DoFs) sketch will have no solution or disconnected point solution(s), and it might not be obvious which case applies. Also it can be hard to tell whether the solution you're converging to is unique < 1755625169 859439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeesh, yes. When I worked on automatic CAD I fortunately was only working on subtractive manufacturing processes (CNC) and so we were mostly focused on encoding subtractions as CNC motions. Whether the subtraction produces the right piece was Somebody Else's Problem. < 1755625230 950801 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some CAD software even treat an under-constrained sketch as invalid, I believe earlier versions of freecad did this? So in those systems, the engine always has to deal with the discrete solutions) < 1755625636 164463 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand > 1755625820 942391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scurl14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163632 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+173) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[scurl]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. The documentation and implementation of the esolang can be found [https://github.com/vblackmar/scurl here.]" < 1755626949 205049 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"inequalities too, they're not that much slower." => have you ever looked for actual implementations of linear programming? I have, https://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html has a nice collection, but I have the impression that there's nothing that both has a convenient simple interface that I can easily use, and supports *sparse* linear programming (as opposed to one with a dense matrix of coefficients). and < 1755626955 206764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd like one. "not that much slower" is true in theory, but either I'm missing something or it's just not that easy in practice. < 1755627705 734148 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Admittedly I have not. < 1755627818 896035 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sparsity would be nice, but it seems that solvers (including free ones) can cope with thousands of variables: https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html < 1755627925 691625 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Actually based on the "nonzeros" counts, most of these benchmarks are at least somewhat sparse) < 1755628325 711768 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: yes, for practical purposes I could probably use just a dense solver, but it's sad that I have to. and if you tried to do this in something like CAD (I had a different application in mind) then you could easily grow to the size where dense is not practical. < 1755628524 917518 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1755628951 393207 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Hmm, what do you mean by "dense solver"? I don't know how they're implemented, but the rows × columns on that benchmark page look far too large to be stored densely. The first one is 986069 × 428032 < 1755629143 792012 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: so a linear programming program looks like A*x<=b where A is a given real matrix and b is a given real vector, and you want to find a vector x of positive reals that satisfies this if it exists. (There are variants, like usually you also want to minimize something, but that's not important here.) Dense means that A is a dense matrix, with all elements explicitly listed. But in practical < 1755629149 798814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :problems, most of the elements of A will be zero, so if both b and x are long then it's worth to represent it as a sparse matrix, storing only the nonzero elements, and solve it this way with sparse matrix operations, never representing the full matrix in memory. < 1755629167 805028 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A dense solver would be one that uses a dense matrix A, a sparse solver uses a sparse matrix A. < 1755629210 168778 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I'm reading that page correctly, most of those benchmark A's are too large to be dense < 1755629235 857238 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: which benchmark page? < 1755629249 266255 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html < 1755629252 375235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that sparse solvers exist, but I'd also like something that's easy to use for a toy project < 1755629304 270470 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: ok, it looks like that compares multiple solvers in a benchmark < 1755629361 954578 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I don't *really* need a full sparse LP solver, but it would be easier to just embed one if there's something with a simple interface and easy to install < 1755629376 514752 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I admit that "sparse matrix" and "simple interface" are kind of contradictory < 1755629393 712583 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I certainly don't need high performance for this > 1755629547 906895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163633&oldid=163366 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-96) 10 < 1755629587 205568 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A sparse matrix is simple to write as coefficient-variable pairs. a1*x1 + a9999*x9999 + ... > 1755630974 559895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A?!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163634&oldid=111142 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+496) 10/* Examples */ > 1755631033 97751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163635&oldid=161757 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+484) 10/* */ < 1755632022 108658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plenty of languages nowadays have both arrays and maps as built-in objects < 1755632063 109454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a simple API for dense matrices would probably use some sort of array-of-arrays representation, if you convert those to maps instead the same API works for sparse matrices < 1755632085 607800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, several languages, like Lua and PHP, treat dense arrays as special cases of sparse maps < 1755632096 240515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JS used to but I don't think it still does < 1755632132 349327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is, those languages tend not to be the sort of systems programming languages that you would use to actually implement an efficient solver… < 1755632200 20909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my guess is that the bad interfaces are caused by the libraries not bothering with trying to create ergonomic FFIs < 1755634501 970120 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Nite < 1755639530 745016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1755645938 525749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1755645950 180167 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755645950 685399 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 8.12, score 31.38, rank 5/47 (+1) < 1755646402 744271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755646403 84631 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 9.48, score 32.74, rank 5/47 (--) < 1755646680 958748 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1755646749 987068 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755646750 281978 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 9.55, score 32.57, rank 5/47 (--) < 1755647044 79528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755647044 288976 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 9.79, score 32.83, rank 5/47 (--) < 1755647303 566802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755647303 845587 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.24, score 33.60, rank 5/47 (--) > 1755647465 935357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mouldyair 5* 10New user account < 1755647701 247056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust < 1755647701 602434 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.14, score 33.46, rank 5/47 (--) > 1755647875 41756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163636&oldid=163472 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+162) 10