> 1755822991 695412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECRET PUZZLE!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163680 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+865) 10Created page with "SECRET PUZZLE is a simple text based programing language made by [[user:Mouldyair]]. ==SYNTAX== to write a program in SECRET PUZZLE you simply type the program into a blank text document, documents can use any unicode characters, have any number of lines, with e
> 1755823078 29626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mouldyair14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163681&oldid=163662 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+24) 10
< 1755823849 318369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: normally both ends are marked but the jump target doesn't say where the jump source is, just that it is a jump target
< 1755824005 978071 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755824639 956404 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1755824960 43852 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, they both say it just as much, there's a freeform label that's the same in both the jump and the target, so if there's no weird shenanigans like computed goto then the difference between a goto-label and a label-comefrom is just the keywords. though you could say that a label doesn't say how many gotos are pointing there, so you don't know when to stop searching for gotos.
< 1755824985 300995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's an interesting viewpoint
< 1755825010 141460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess the interesting part of the design space is "linear labels" which you can only jump to from one location in the code
< 1755825032 44888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meaning that if there are multiple jumps to the same location, you have multiple labels next to each other to indicate that
< 1755825044 674572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, that's pretty much what Incident does
< 1755825088 559010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess another asymmetry in most practical languages is that the behaviour of jumping out of scopes is much easier to define than the behaviour of jumping into scopes
< 1755825120 198544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although there are challenges in both directions, and those challenges mirror each other to some extent, dropping an object that shouldn't exist is generally much easier than conjuring an object that should)
< 1755825140 74775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also that for a conditional jump you write the condition before the goto, not before the comefrom, so from that you can tell it's a goto statement
< 1755825210 109577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if condition { label:; } … comefrom label; has the right semantics, but the condition is still on the end you jump from
< 1755825287 738271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doing it at the other end would be something like label:; … nextfrom label; if condition { forget 1; } else { resume 1; }
< 1755825314 37963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is how INTERCAL does conditionals, but I don't think anyone else does, and it's significantly different in the way it works
< 1755825354 910751 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally you'd write comefrom (condition ? label : invalidlabel), though in intercal in particular even the invalid label that never executes has to syntactically exist, and of course you have to write the conditional as an intercal expression which can be inconvenient
< 1755825381 163553 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a modern language with comefrom would just have convenient syntax for a conditional comefrom
< 1755825382 169251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, for a computed comefrom, the label it computes to doesn't have to exist
< 1755825396 27652 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't?
< 1755825399 458287 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
< 1755825422 380176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a compile time check and you can't figure out what it would compute to at compile time
< 1755825434 32679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if it were a runtime check, it would be hard to define exactly when it should run…)
< 1755825465 238668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that writing the conditional as an INTERCAL expression actually makes things easier, usually
< 1755825480 991213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compared to writing it using a variable-sized resume
< 1755825525 816297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can just do "jump if x is k" by mingling x and a constant, and then numbering the line to match the expected result
< 1755825592 532694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile the variable-sized resume generally requires you to convert the two possibilities to 1 and 2, which is doable but somewhat verbose as it isn't a trivial pair of numbers to produce with bitwise operations
< 1755825720 648370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can't resume 0 because that encounters error type 621)
< 1755825774 888564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although it crosses my mind that a consistent way to resume 0 might be to jump to the line label that had been most recently forgotten
< 1755825777 835729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in an APL-like with come from, you'd use the compress verb to conditionally make the operand of the comefrom an empty array when the condition fails, and in the typical case when you compress a constant label, the interpreter would optimize this to only evaluate the condition at that one label
< 1755825821 951804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mostly think of APL as a functional rather than imperative language, which makes goto/comefrom hard to imagine in it
< 1755825826 465869 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can't you use FORGET with 0 or 1 instead?
< 1755825837 959385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but that doesn't actually jump anywhere
< 1755825851 460667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, you follow it with a resume 1
< 1755825853 611912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could just use a variable forget followed by a hardcoded resume 1
< 1755825857 999490 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1755825890 510814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now that you mention it, I'm surprised that that isn't done more often
< 1755825971 129864 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not done because next is too easy and is only there for historical reasons, real intercal programmers use only comefrom/nextfrom with possibly the from or the label computed
< 1755826008 578274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I genuinely find computed comefrom easier
< 1755826028 150727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :than the intercal-72 method
< 1755826037 649126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to write, at least – it is probably a little less readable, but it's close)
< 1755826063 108262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the expressions are more readable but they have the "random global side effect" issue that most of the things in INTERCAL do
< 1755826090 431271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL also has computed create, which is underexplored I think
< 1755826093 421684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be good for jump tables
< 1755826173 676760 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there's also abstain/reinstate with a computed target
< 1755826225 673698 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those allowed to abstain/reinstate a nonexistent label?
< 1755826262 573156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think C-INTERCAL allows you to compute the label of abstain/reinstate, but I'm not sure
< 1755826291 11305 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it allows you to compute the *quantity* of abstain, e.g. you can triple-abstain things so that they need to be reinstated three times
< 1755826314 110056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fun fact: this is the first time I stumbled across The Waterfall Model, but I didn't realise it at the time)
< 1755826315 395483 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1755826325 803094 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting
< 1755826371 968220 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know multiple abstain existed in the language
< 1755826402 552257 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I added it because I was interested in seeing if INTERCAL could be TC even without expressions
> 1755826422 749650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163682 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+1199) 10Created page with "'''Error: not a statement''' is a restricted subset of Java by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]], which only allows expressions statements that would no
< 1755826428 130986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it seemed like the same sort of thing as computed forget
< 1755826448 367036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
> 1755826452 933933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163683&oldid=161377 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+99) 10
< 1755826508 592000 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it probably is, because there's stash/retreive to conveniently handle a stack of a finite alphabet
< 1755826548 112086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what I ended up with was almost literally The Waterfall Model with different syntax (the only difference is that TWM has undefined behaviour on simultaneous zeroing whereas this has defined behaviour, and I hadn't realised at the time that usual practice would be to keep the abstain counts nonzero almost all the time)
< 1755826583 717773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think stash/retrieve are useful without expressions, because you have no way to set or read the values you're stashing and retrieving
< 1755826606 610964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you start with a statement multiple abstained, with something like `do not not not not not`?
< 1755826621 641476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, although that's an interesting idea for an extension
< 1755826638 912256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally a double negative in English negates the negative rather than intensifying it
< 1755826652 959087 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you would need to write the not in a language where double negation is stronger negation rather than negated negation
< 1755826655 62293 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you can read the values as a forget or resume count, or by using it as an array index
< 1755826702 571822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :array indexing is an expression
< 1755826708 898824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…as are forget and resume counts
< 1755826709 563591 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you ban that too, right
< 1755826725 62224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I allowed the constant #1 in ABSTAIN #1 FROM
< 1755826733 202476 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assumed you only banned the mingle and select and the prefix bitwise operators
< 1755826734 220949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe bare variables should be allowed too
< 1755826791 167787 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :syntax shouldn't be anything like `do not not` because that would be incompatible with existing syntax in a way that would affect a lot of... uh... production code or something, real world programs
< 1755826828 28885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's currently a syntax error
< 1755826838 644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which, admittedly, could exist in current production programs)
< 1755826958 716207 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! so maybe it wouldn't break many production programs
< 1755826987 43812 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they'd result in different abstain state in some lines, but only in lines that the program wouldn't try to execute
< 1755827021 391559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it's possible that the syntax errors would be being executed
< 1755827042 670780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like DO REINSTATE COMMENTS DO NOT NOT FOO would act differently
< 1755827071 419312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although DO REINSTATE COMMENTS is such a dubious construct I'm not even sure I've remember the syntax for it correctly
< 1755827088 846276 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in this multiple abstain/reinstate extension, is the abstain count capped to zero or more so if you reinstate more times than a statement is abstained then it's clamped to zero abstains?
< 1755827131 839011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's clamped from below at 0 and can go "arbitrarily high" although C-INTERCAL doesn't actually use a bignum type
< 1755827149 218669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, only multiple abstain is supported, you have to reinstate 1 at a time
< 1755827160 377220 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1755827174 439286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strange
< 1755827196 610342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it starts making too much sense, you don't have INTERCAL any more :-D
> 1755827247 418831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GERMAN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163684&oldid=110908 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+2309) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending three incipial members, added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, and supplemented the Implemented page category tag.
< 1755827271 259286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, but sometimes I'm thinking of which of these features could be lifted to a (likely esoteric in the broad sense) language that very much isn't intercal
< 1755827302 431818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, sure
< 1755827319 113193 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really want to program in intercal, but it can be useful to know ideas added into it in all the extensions
< 1755827336 308344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that case you have all four of goto/comefrom/next/nextfrom, computed line labels everywhere, and full ability to compute abstain/reinstate amounts in addition to resume/forget amounts
< 1755827387 879149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if the language isn't being intentionally perverse, it should probably make resume 0 a no-op, which is the behaviour that would actually be useful
< 1755827468 839871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("resume" was presumably intentionally named so that resume 0 wouldn't make sense and thus it could be arbitrarily rejected)
< 1755827508 402737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, back when PHP implemented INTERCAL's resume (as "break"), I wonder whether break 0 was an error or a no-op
< 1755827510 148284 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly repeated line labels such that it's an error to go to a line label that appears multiple times but you can abstain/reinstate all statements with a certain label at the same time
< 1755827536 838348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it got removed when someone pointed out that it's almost never a good idea to use a computed expression as the number of levels to break
< 1755827542 351138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it used to be possible
< 1755827561 842583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh yes, repeated labels would make sense
< 1755827570 17529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a goto should just go to all of them, creating multiple threads
< 1755827577 697471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's what multiple come froms do)
< 1755827664 532498 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the esoteric syntax; in sane syntax if the label is repeated then when you refer to it you have to specify if you want to refer to the previous line or the next line with that label, so that you can use short label names locally
< 1755827695 177893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, the 1b 1f thing from gas
< 1755827709 919014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually really like that method of doing things – it doesn't nest well but it otherwise composes well
< 1755827716 199835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that makes more sense if you can't use numeric expressions as computed labels
< 1755827750 949977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe negative numbers jump backwards and positive numbers jump forwards?
< 1755827881 561422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm currently thinking that the columns serve as variable names esoteric language (which I'm naming "Enchain") will probably have gotos as one of its main control structure, in a somewhat similar way than the python goto extension that I had been thinking about. 
< 1755828022 877186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how this would work is that there's a builtin syntax to make a label, which sets a variable to that label, but that assignment is executed at the start of the innermost surrounding function, not where the label builtin is written in the program, and there are other builtins that jump or conditionally jump if an integer operand is zero or nonzero
< 1755828059 891778 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with maybe even an on-goto that takes any number of label operands and an index into them
< 1755828124 683136 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this wouldn't be the only control structure, because I absolutely want to have user-defined functions with multiple parameters and multiple return values,
< 1755828154 145587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, so Zig has a command "defer" which, when encountered, runs the content of its block at the end of the scope – this feels like a mirror of it, it runs the command at the beginning of the scope
< 1755828157 72835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I may or may not have a simple conditional that adds a condition to either one statement, or a condition to decide between two adjacent statements, based on an integer
< 1755828162 348474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm not sure if there's a way to mirror the "when encountered" part
< 1755828208 881150 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't really think of it like that
< 1755828246 40903 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because in the common case you'll never reassign that variable, it just behaves as a constant label
< 1755828258 470975 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though you are allowed to reassign it, in which case yes, the assignment is executed at the start
< 1755828351 476570 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in the common case, python already has syntactic effects that act from the start of the function: an equals sign assignment marks a variable as lexically local to the function, and it's lexically local even syntactically earlier than where that assignment is
< 1755828408 487953 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even in an ordinary language like C, a goto can refer to a label that hasn't executed yet
< 1755828441 811799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vttoth's W is actually unusual in this respect, because its labels are assigned only when they execute, which seriously limits how you can use them
< 1755828460 636152 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can use W's labels to write a loop, but not easily to write a simple conditional
< 1755828499 489438 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is deliberate design in W, but in most languages you don't want that
< 1755828731 219413 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also rust just lets you write `fn main() { println!("{}", M); const M: &str = "hello"; }` and it just works, you refer to M syntactically before you define it
< 1755828749 538472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't even have to predeclare it like you'd have to predeclare a function or class in C++
< 1755828946 176837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, C setjmp/longjmp also can't be jumped to until they've been set
< 1755828977 96690 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had used something like the DO RESUME #2 of INTERCAL in a program written in BASIC once, since if you RETURN from a GOSUB then you can optionally specify what label to return to, instead of necessarily where it was called from. (There is also a RESUME command in BASIC, to return from an error handler, and also can optionally specify what label to return to.)
< 1755829052 327414 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and even my idea for python goto and the current idea for Enchain would have some restrictions: you wouldn't be allowed to jump into a function. 
< 1755829104 85270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, there is something about the python goto why you can legitimately think of it as executing the assignment at the start of the function:
< 1755829194 441404 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when the assignment happens it behaves kind of like a scheme exit/cc in that it saves a reference to the current stack frame into that variable, so you can pass that variable into nested functions (even recursive entries to the same function) and you can goto that value to jump out from many scopes deep 
< 1755829217 157153 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't jump into a function, but you can jump out of as many as you wish
< 1755829336 949663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should go to bed
< 1755829342 451086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1755829411 483265 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have some doubts about the python thing because I realized that there are a lot of details about how python works that I don't understand, and while they don't come up in normal practical programs, they do come up when I want to add features to python
< 1755829434 392703 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think the python goto thing is sound, and in the worst case it can be added to some other similar dynamic language
> 1755833842 842856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163685&oldid=163682 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+11) 10/* Limitations */
> 1755834561 819571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECRET PUZZLE!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163686&oldid=163680 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+126) 10/* SYNTAX */
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> 1755848844 941198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unifuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163687 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+4282) 10Created page with "Unifuck (a portmanteau of Unicode and [[brainfuck]]) is a Brainfuck derivative made by [[User:SzszszszszszszsZ]] where the regular instructions are changed this way: {| class="wikitable" |- ! ''n''%8 is !! Original  |- | 0 || +  |- | 1 || - |- | 2 || < |- | 3 |
> 1755848895 971300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SzszszszszszszsZ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163688&oldid=163521 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+24) 10
< 1755849016 198838 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1755850746 79375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5*  10New user account
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> 1755851750 787258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163689&oldid=163636 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+269) 10/* Introductions */
< 1755852042 999898 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755852242 458239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hasin Israk Toaha14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163690 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+6785) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tonnyi |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Hasin Israk Toaha|Hasin Israk Toaha]] |year=2025 |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=<code>.ton</code> }}  '''Tonnyi''' is an esoteric programming langu
> 1755853860 573384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hasin Israk Toaha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163691&oldid=163690 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+124) 10
> 1755855761 883339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Waso 5*  10New user account
> 1755856447 697276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163692&oldid=163648 5* 03RixTheTyrunt 5* (+18) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1755856485 609023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163693&oldid=163689 5* 03Waso 5* (+435) 10Added me
> 1755856518 502697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163694&oldid=163693 5* 03Waso 5* (+2) 10
> 1755857167 102237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163695&oldid=140168 5* 03Waso 5* (+115) 10Added a Bitflip algorithm
> 1755857445 366087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163696&oldid=163695 5* 03Waso 5* (-2) 10
> 1755858023 750875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstoppable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163697&oldid=163671 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+12) 10I'll try proving soon
< 1755861226 114533 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
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< 1755861695 971166 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :suppose I give in advance a finite alphabet H with an involution R : H→H. consider the following class of objects: finite simple graphs, represented as finite simple symmetric digraphs, with each arc marked by a weight from H, with the restriction that if an arc (u,v) has weight h then its reverse (v,u) must have weight R(h). what would be a good
< 1755861696 469585 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :concise name for these objects? I can't just call them finite simple graphs with weighted edges, because the weight of an edge may have a direction.
> 1755861832 760367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Inputbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163698&oldid=148364 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1800) 10Blanked the page
< 1755861867 660493 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1755862012 950930 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755862096 280391 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe, as a first simpler question before we tackle the whole thing, say I also give a finite simple graph in advance, and I consider the set of weightings (functions from the set of arcs to H) satisfying the above reversing condition. what would you call these weightings?
> 1755862188 929394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163699&oldid=163674 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck in Uppercase=Lowercase */
> 1755862237 482240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uppercase=Lowercase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163700&oldid=163675 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck interpreter */
> 1755863247 460812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5*  10moved [[02User:HaleyHalcyon/Sandbox/Sonjalang10]] to [[Sonjalang]]: Feels complete enough to me
< 1755864514 804621 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION → Bathtub    😌     🐋

< 1755866793 586213 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755867397 31955 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1755867725 251491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163703&oldid=141246 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+327) 10/* Translation to Kak */  If this is valid, tell me in discord at mrglebsun or change the page category from Unimplemented to Implemented
> 1755867867 87306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163704&oldid=163703 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* Implementations */  did some modifacation to match the syntax of the  language
< 1755868231 527074 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755868246 926129 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror JOIN #esolangs strerror :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1755868286 953388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163705&oldid=140964 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+41) 10
< 1755872365 566946 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755873232 332924 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1332
< 1755873234 596352 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1332.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1755873304 136551 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1755873339 156349 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, that's exactly what I wanted to say
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< 1755876099 407560 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755877153 288471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163706&oldid=154618 5* 03Corbin 5* (+751) 10Combine some material from [[computable]] and normalize the presentation of equations. Lessons learned from Wilf et al, "A=B" https://www2.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html
> 1755877212 911191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163707&oldid=163678 5* 03Corbin 5* (-832) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Move the relevant intro to [[Diophantine equation]].
< 1755877529 546564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755878037 887399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163708&oldid=163707 5* 03Corbin 5* (+29) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Fix tiny typos which invalidated the maths.
< 1755878234 772335 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755880589 363120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163709&oldid=163694 5* 03LOLrReD 5* (+113) 10introduced LOLrReD
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< 1755886113 15959 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *, happy Weekends!
< 1755888605 151517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755890203 386119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163710 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+325) 10Create page
> 1755890293 293660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163711&oldid=163663 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+47) 10Added TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU
< 1755890664 505626 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`slashlearn rush job//A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
< 1755890670 838129 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Learned 'rush job': A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
> 1755891144 770547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163712&oldid=163704 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Implementations */  i guess it's accurate
> 1755892390 409667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163713&oldid=163710 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+2691) 10Extended
> 1755892592 520628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163714&oldid=163713 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+437) 10Extended library and fixed grammar issue
> 1755893751 600007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163715&oldid=163714 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+2505) 10Finished documentation and added a hello world program. This is no longer a work in progress!
> 1755893898 540624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163716&oldid=163715 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+84) 10Altered hello world program to make it more readable
> 1755894109 254015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vyxal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163717&oldid=86395 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Links */
> 1755894138 982294 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vyxal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163718&oldid=163717 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Links */
> 1755894298 367669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163719&oldid=163716 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+584) 10Added abbreviation and pronounciation
> 1755894327 548338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163720&oldid=163719 5* 03TeraByte 5* (-1) 10Splelnig is hrad
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< 1755896502 950232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I could say it's a symmetric digraph with antisymmetric arc weights
< 1755897897 7605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh you could say it's antisymmetric and justify that by looking at the adjacency matrix
< 1755897978 78157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe a pun on "undirected": antidirected graph
< 1755898040 377096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm assuming you're going to actually define the term first. I haven't checked whether that has an established meaning... it might.)
> 1755898526 926188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163721&oldid=163641 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-58) 10
< 1755899497 526760 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755899527 613650 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :timeloop that resets when I say <|end|>
< 1755901240 112656 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yam04
< 1755901268 220798 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Esolangers
< 1755901385 535006 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to post the version 6.0 of the hypercomplex numberr list
< 1755901412 624734 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://forums.futura-sciences.com/attachments/mathematiques-superieur/511512d1755817142-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-hipernombre_6_0.pdf
< 1755901470 484976 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It 's a list of mathematical references, about different aspect of numbers
< 1755901529 378399 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to recommend some mathematical references do it at https://forums.futura-sciences.com/mathematiques-superieur/959505-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-a.html
> 1755901573 282360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Purplelimon 5*  10New user account
< 1755901614 858908 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Best Regardds
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> 1755902050 577005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163722&oldid=163709 5* 03Purplelimon 5* (+167) 10
< 1755902724 42595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :iovoid: no, if I wanted to go even shorter I'd just omit the "symmetric" and hope that "antisymmetric edge weights" implies that the digraph is symmetric. 
< 1755902801 286427 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1755902803 191168 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wrong ping, sorry
< 1755902805 101156 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ^
< 1755903179 660589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah but I wanted to drop the mention of edge weights :P
< 1755903230 677460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One could mix in "weighted" though to bring them back.)
< 1755903958 906353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was proposing terms, rather than self-contained descriptions)
< 1755903964 393590 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you drop the edge weight then these are just finite simple graphs, aka finite simple symmetric digraphs. I don't need a new name for that.
< 1755904010 815443 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(some people represent graphs differently than in terms of symmetric digraphs, but here the digraph representation is convenient.)
< 1755904048 202005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Defintion: A weighted graph is called antidirectional if for each egde in the graph the opposite edge is also an edge with the opposite weight.
< 1755904061 205815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something like that.
< 1755904132 572008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"antidirected" appears to have a meaning though which may make this confusing
< 1755904139 691630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm spitballing here.
< 1755904211 841857 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what either of "antidirectional" or "antidirected" mean
< 1755904268 761296 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course. The idea was to define it.
< 1755904274 685223 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think I'm satisfied with "antisymmetric weight function"
< 1755904284 400210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I said, it was supposed to be a term, not a description.
< 1755904309 117052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also did not expect you to actually adopt it.
< 1755904313 252255 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though not entirely
< 1755904322 318289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was just a thought.
< 1755904369 455799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because antisymmetric is supposed to mean that the weight of the reverse arc is the negative of the weight of the arc, but I'm not sure R can be considered a negation when it has multiple fixed points
< 1755904388 557053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently "antidirected" is used (in some niche, not widely) for graphs that have no directed paths of length 2.
< 1755904411 901604 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think "hermitian" would work better either
< 1755904428 96753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that it's fine to generalize it to an involution.
< 1755904439 795324 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wouldn't no directed paths of length 2 just mean an oriented graph, at least among simple digraphs?
< 1755904501 956562 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it rules out A --> B --> C
< 1755904515 574962 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you said path, not cycle!
< 1755904524 910876 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then is it just a bipartite digraph?
< 1755904546 341301 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, a digraph from which there's a homomorphism to the grpah with a single arc
< 1755904548 236485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I think so. Well, with some ambiguity for unconnected vertices.
< 1755904571 817156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just looking (very selectively) at https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.00769
< 1755904587 537333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's one of the hits for "antidirected".
< 1755904597 36468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It has no bearing on this discussion otherwise.
> 1755905115 801401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163723&oldid=163683 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-35) 10
> 1755905166 182974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163724&oldid=163685 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-1) 10/* A basic program */
> 1755906634 31079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163725&oldid=163724 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+257) 10/* So how do you do anything? */
> 1755907144 413468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163726&oldid=163725 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+23) 10/* Limitations */