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00:38:15 <esolangs> [[Oops i shared an infohazard.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163817&oldid=163811 * Hotcrystal0 * (+52) Categories
00:47:03 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163818&oldid=163816 * Hotcrystal0 * (+372)
01:30:10 <esolangs> [[Unifuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163819&oldid=163687 * SzszszszszszszsZ * (+18)
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02:09:49 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163822&oldid=163821 * AlephSquirrel * (+13) Add to server 3
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02:40:10 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163824&oldid=163823 * PrySigneToFry * (+73)
02:41:43 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163825&oldid=163824 * PrySigneToFry * (+46) Add a new server.
02:45:54 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163826&oldid=163825 * Aadenboy * (+58) /* Server 4 */ marking the death of this server
03:00:42 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163827&oldid=163826 * AlephSquirrel * (+47) Add to servers 5 and 6
03:08:17 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163828&oldid=163827 * Aadenboy * (+36) adding to server 5 (ridiculous)
03:14:56 <esolangs> [[Schaftenstein]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163829 * PrySigneToFry * (+2827) Created page with "Schaftenstein is a programming language designed by PSTF. The goal of this language is to be completely OOP and be Turing-complete. = Overview = As the author stated, this language is designed to be quite like Java but different(mix with Python). = Basic S
03:19:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163830&oldid=163786 * PrySigneToFry * (+20)
03:51:42 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163831&oldid=163828 * PkmnQ * (+190)
04:50:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Oops i shared an infohazard.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163832 * Corbin * (+176) Share a gentle fun memetic infohazard.
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07:50:01 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163833&oldid=163831 * Ractangle * (-521) bro
07:50:29 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163834&oldid=163833 * Ractangle * (+521) nvm
07:51:40 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163835&oldid=163834 * Ractangle * (+10) /* Server 2 */
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09:25:16 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163838&oldid=163837 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
09:33:08 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163839&oldid=163838 * C++DSUCKER * (+143)
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12:11:15 <esolangs> [[Tercet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163841&oldid=163356 * Insulation * (+18)
12:16:39 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163842&oldid=163840 * I am islptng * (+52)
12:41:03 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163843&oldid=163842 * C0ffee * (+9) /* Server 2 */
12:44:50 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163844&oldid=163843 * C0ffee * (+10) /* Server 5 */
12:49:59 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163845 * I don't like programming * (+751) Created page with "[[stop writing your code]] an esolang developed by [[User:I don't like programming]] where every character prints random string from [" Stop writing your code!", "Stop write code!", " Stop writing your fucking code"]. The idea behind the
12:52:01 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163846&oldid=163845 * I don't like programming * (+92)
12:52:28 <esolangs> [[Stop writing your code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163847&oldid=163846 * I don't like programming * (+0) Categories
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12:59:06 <esolangs> [[User:I don't like programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163848&oldid=163746 * I don't like programming * (+183)
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13:33:03 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163850&oldid=163844 * AlephSquirrel * (+37) Add to servers 2 and 6
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13:42:21 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163852&oldid=163851 * PrySigneToFry * (+60) Adding to server 5 and adding a new thread.
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13:45:47 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163853&oldid=163839 * C++DSUCKER * (+0)
13:46:23 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163854&oldid=163852 * Aadenboy * (+88) change underscores to arrows for readability + add to server 7
14:04:20 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163855&oldid=163853 * C++DSUCKER * (+507)
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15:24:34 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163858&oldid=163857 * PkmnQ * (+27)
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15:32:00 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163860&oldid=163859 * PkmnQ * (+6) /* Server 5 */
15:57:00 <esolangs> [[User:X-540]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163861 * X-540 * (+601) Created page with "Hi, I'm X/O, also known as x_540 (or x-540 if I can't use an _), as you might have guessed based on the fact that this page exists, I like esolangs. I'm also lazy so yoy can expect me to take months or even years to add my esolangs to this wiki... I currently have two
16:11:22 <korvo> Hm. I should reword the bullshit I put at the top of [[Category:Output only]]. Deadfish isn't the worst example, but it's a little misleading; when considered as a free monoid, the "output" of a Deadfish program includes a ghost output which stores the current register. This means that it should really be [0-255]+, but also it's actually generated by postcomposition with the inclusion [0-255]* -> [0-255]+.
16:12:50 <korvo> ...Nope, got the arrow backwards. It's postcomposition with a truncation [0-255]+ → [0-255]* which removes the final element of each sequence. Gotta drop the ghost element.
16:27:15 <korvo> ...Deadfish isn't coherently defined? Well, that makes it a very bad example indeed! Is there a better output-only language to illustrate the point, or should I remove that section entirely?
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16:43:20 <esolangs> [[e]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163862 * WarzokERNST135 * (+254) Created page with "e is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] which is named after its 3 flags: {{cd|}}, {{cd|e}}, and {{cd|}}. Here is a Hello World example in it: eee eeee ee ee"
16:44:30 <esolangs> [[User:WarzokERNST135]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163863&oldid=163633 * WarzokERNST135 * (+16)
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16:58:25 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163865&oldid=162899 * Corbin * (+719) Basic complexity analysis.
17:00:55 <esolangs> [[Category:Output only]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163866&oldid=163595 * Corbin * (-838) Remove (my) overly-simplistic attempt at attaching monoids to output-only languages.
17:10:19 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163867&oldid=163864 * Ractangle * (-41) /* Server 4 */ not anymore
17:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:BoundedBeans/Weird Befunge Conditionals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163868&oldid=111764 * BoundedBeans * (+0) Corrected "Rhree" to "Three"
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18:09:17 <esolangs> [[PDAsephtwo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163869&oldid=150121 * BoundedBeans * (+321) Clarified w and V commands
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18:16:00 <esolangs> [[Lete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163870&oldid=129359 * BoundedBeans * (+41) Converted command list to table and removed _ command
18:20:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163871 * Aadenboy * (+334) Created page with "== Server 4 == was [[e]] created for this? ~~~~"
18:23:23 <esolangs> [[Sugueziume]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163872&oldid=129928 * BoundedBeans * (+139) Convert original commands to wikitable
18:26:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163873&oldid=163871 * Ractangle * (+174) /* Server 4 */
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20:42:33 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163876&oldid=161963 * Tommyaweosme * (+3204)
20:44:49 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163877&oldid=163265 * Ractangle * (-8) /* Implementations */ mini
20:46:29 <esolangs> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163878&oldid=163877 * Ractangle * (+8) Rhor66r96t8r8r9otft
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21:57:27 <esolangs> [[)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163879&oldid=148982 * Tommyaweosme * (+34)
22:01:43 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163880&oldid=163875 * Aadenboy * (+37) add to servers 2 (self-promo) and 7
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22:12:24 <ais523> korvo: I think you may misunderstand Deadfish – the range of the register isn't 0-255, it is the set of nonnegative integers that are not 256
22:12:44 <ais523> 0 to 255 inclusive are OK, so is 257 and upwards
22:13:40 <korvo> ais523: Yes. As such, I've edited [[Category:output only]] to entirely omit my aside on monoids. If there is a better language that serves as an example, I'd be happy to write that up.
22:14:17 <korvo> That said, please LMK if my recent edit to [[deadfish]] was wrong. I started from the assumption that the program which squares 17, listed in the prior section, was valid and that there wasn't a further ceiling or wraparound.
22:14:28 <ais523> on a separate topic: I have been wondering about whether you can mremap the stack on Linux (to a different address) while the stack is in use, as long as you change the stack pointer to match afterwards
22:14:38 <zzo38> Some implementations have other limits than that, such as 16-bits or 32-bits
22:14:55 <ais523> obviously you can't do this through any sort of library wrapper, as a library function wouldn't be able to return if you moved the stack out from underneath it
22:15:15 <ais523> but, maybe doing the system call directly with inline asm works?
22:15:47 <ais523> (you would need to make sure there were no pointers to the stack at the time, which probably means implementing your whole program in asm as compilers don't try to avoid doing that)
22:16:34 <ais523> the "theoretical standard for Deadfish" is normally considered to have no maximum limit on the integer
22:16:41 <korvo> Some compilation schemes basically don't use the stack pointer, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some stack usage from e.g. the C runtime, either.
22:16:51 <ais523> but as zzo38 says, individual implementations often just use native integer types rather than bignums
22:17:39 <ais523> the context is that I have been considering writing my own ABI, one of the rules (that was created for an entirely different reason) was that there could be no pointers to the %sp stack (there is a second stack you can have pointers to)
22:18:05 <ais523> and then I realised it would be possible to realloc the stack larger while the program was running, which would make a number of threading-related issues much easier
22:18:22 <ais523> but I wasn't sure if a system call would even be able to return if the stack had moved while it was running
22:18:38 <ais523> I think it probably would be? the syscall instruction doesn't use the stack
22:18:56 <ais523> but some system calls do, like vDSO system calls, so this may be a case in which the kernel is underspecified
22:19:59 <zzo38> Do you intend to work with multiple instruction sets? Some might not support that.
22:20:17 <ais523> in general, Linux not having a specification is annoying, e.g. several people noticed during the high performance FizzBuzz thing that the documentation of vmsplice(2) doesn't match its actual behaviour, but we have no way to tell which is wrong or whether that's even a meaningful thing to say
22:20:46 <zzo38> One thing I was thinking of before is if it can be made to support saving the state of the program and then to restore it later from disk (but excluding I/O).
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22:21:00 <ais523> zzo38: well an ABI is somewhat processor-specific – I want the general ABI design techniques to potentially generalise to other processors, but it's OK if not all of them can handle it, and the ABI itself of course wouldn't
22:21:35 <ais523> e.g. I was also planning to take advantage of having a large virtual address space, which you can't do on 32-bit processors or processors without MMUs
22:22:07 <b_jonas> ais523: if you mean mremap to replace the stack contents to a different accessible page then I don't see why you couldn't do it even without special precautions. if you call the mremap system call directly it shouldn't use your stack. if instead you want to replace the stack with a page that isn't accessible then you have to make sure the kernel doesn't try to invoke signal handlers on that stack while
22:22:13 <b_jonas> it's inaccessible: either sigaltstack, or block every signal that would invoke a handler
22:22:26 <ais523> oh yes, this definitely needs sigaltstack
22:22:28 <b_jonas> on x86_64 at least; other architectures could differ
22:25:46 <b_jonas> ais523: try to look in programs like DOSEMU or Wine that set up for running 16-bit protected mode programs (typically Win16) natively in an x86_32 linux host executable, maybe they have to do similar crazy magic
22:26:03 <ais523> I thought this ABI would need sigaltstack just generally, but thinking about it, it actually doesn't – receiving a signal doesn't create new pointers to the stack
22:26:33 <zzo38> Glulx has the stack in a separate address space (which is not fully accessible), but there has been a C compiler written to target it. (I think it is not only Glulx that does this, though)
22:26:46 <ais523> b_jonas: I think they normally just map the bottom of virtual memory to simulate real mode
22:26:57 <zzo38> (Glulx does not have signals though)
22:27:01 <ais523> that's the reason why the kernel lets you configure the setting that disables mapping over NULL
22:27:24 <ais523> although, hmm, protected mode
22:27:33 <ais523> the issue there would be segment registers
22:28:22 <ais523> zzo38: I think "stack in a separate address space" is correct, but x86-64 doesn't support it, so the best I can do is put it somewhere random and prevent any pointers ever being taken to it
22:28:22 <b_jonas> ais523: that's for real mode, sure, but can't some of them run Win16 programs in protected mode with the code segment set to 16-bit too like windows 3.11 in 386 enchanced mode does? surely at least some later Win16 programs depend on that, don't they?
22:28:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163881&oldid=163873 * PkmnQ * (+351)
22:28:55 <b_jonas> ais523: this is specifically for an x86_32 host, rare these days but the source code supporting it should still exist
22:29:19 <ais523> IIRC on x86_32, you need the kernel's help to set legal values for segment registers
22:29:26 <b_jonas> at least the linux program that invokes it is x86_32, not necessarily the kernel
22:29:34 <ais523> like, the kernel creates an array of possible legal segments, and you put one of those into the segment register in userspace
22:30:35 <b_jonas> I don't know, I never tried this kind of magic. The most I did was to map a new writable and executable segment, write a function into it, then call it.
22:30:37 <ais523> ah, found it: modify_ldt(2)
22:31:54 <ais523> it used to be used for thread-local storage, but Linux added a special case for that after a while
22:32:32 <b_jonas> ais523: good, so somebody probably uses that system call, and you can probably find such code
22:32:39 <ais523> (on x86, TLS is normally done via %gs; on x86_64, it's done via %fs, using WRFSBASE if the processor has it or help from the kernel on old x86_64 processors)
22:34:06 <ais523> and the reason they changed from %gs to %fs is that there's a SWAPGS instruction but not a SWAPFS instruction, which as far as I can tell doesn't actually matter semantically, but perhaps there's a performance difference as a consequence
22:35:24 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't it because the x86_64 cpu only allows FS to point to a nonzero address in true 64-bit mode, so they had to use FS, whereas the x86_32 convention existed before x86_64 was invented?
22:36:05 <ais523> b_jonas: FS and GS are both allowed to have a nonzero base
22:36:33 <ais523> the only segmentation details you can change on x86-64 are base of FS and GS, and bitness of CS
22:38:45 <ais523> I did have an interesting idea for an x86-series processor feature recently: the ability to link specific memory map entries to segment registers, so that they could only be accessed by instructions prefixed (explicitly or implicitly) with that prefix
22:39:26 <b_jonas> also, I don't think it will help you with such deep magic, but http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libcoro.html has like five different implementation on how to set up new stacks and switch between stacks on linux-like systems (including possibly other unixes)
22:40:34 <ais523> this would let you simulate the segment-limit feature of 32-bit x86, which I think is helpful as an assertion (security / catching accidental out-of-bounds accesses)
22:43:10 <b_jonas> sorry? how would you simulate the segment limit?
22:44:57 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163882&oldid=163880 * Tommyaweosme * (+68) cutting a loophole and reglueing the rules back together
22:47:43 <b_jonas> the x86_64 instruction WRPKRU and its linux interface pkeys(7) might be able to do something like that, but the code would be less dense than just segment prefixes
22:48:07 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163883&oldid=163882 * Tommyaweosme * (+162)
22:50:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163884&oldid=163881 * Tommyaweosme * (+123)
22:51:18 <ais523> b_jonas: by tagging memory outside of the segment limit so that it couldn't be accessed by the segment's prefix
22:51:46 <ais523> this was inspired by pkeys, but I think it's an improvemet
22:52:34 <ais523> sudden realisation: people use the xor operator in things like W^X and "shared xor mutable", but it is the wrong operator: this isn't an xor but a nand, because it is OK to have things that are neither writable nor executable
22:52:50 <zzo38> I noticed that too
22:53:29 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163885&oldid=163883 * Tommyaweosme * (+167)
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23:15:46 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163886&oldid=163885 * Aadenboy * (+16) add to revres 2 (self-promo)
23:22:17 <esolangs> [[Game:Esochain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163887&oldid=163886 * Hotcrystal0 * (+21)
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