> 1756340125 823614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Nope. derivatives10]]": unapproved category that is very likely misnamed, and would have had a better name if it were discussed (but we may end up using a list page instead)
> 1756340143 909072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164049&oldid=160188 5* 03Ais523 5* (-34) 10/* Derivatives */ rm undiscussed category
> 1756340181 406062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164050&oldid=163818 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-689) 10
> 1756340184 951204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom10]]": page in userspace that does not correspond to an existing user
> 1756340262 973827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Pages with template loops14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164051&oldid=164011 5* 03Ais523 5* (+389) 10this s a MediaWiki auto-category
> 1756340363 942744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Joke examples10]]": undiscussed category, currently unused
> 1756340399 765953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Process measurement and control10]]": undiscussed category, currently unused  this may have been a category created in the hope that people would create languages to add to it, but that isn't how the categorisation system works
> 1756340414 39387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Stupid family10]]": unapproved category
< 1756340423 246434 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ki'esai! Thank you so much.
> 1756340476 15873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Category:Tutorials10]]": unapproved category (this is possibly a good idea, but in any case it contains no pages, so it isn't useful unless someone actually writes some tutorials, and those could probably go in [[Category:Programming techniques]])
> 1756340533 619187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164052&oldid=164049 5* 03Ais523 5* (+97) 10/* Miscellaneous */ add [[Category:Programming techniques]], which predates the "categories must be discussed" rule and was added by the same person
> 1756340672 81670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164053&oldid=164036 5* 03Ais523 5* (-558) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */ edit out overly long signature
> 1756340721 426650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164054&oldid=164053 5* 03Ais523 5* (+536) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */ some thoughts
< 1756340811 157887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756340851 852804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not convinced your mention of Rice's theorem on the constant language page is correct – Rice's theorem has two conditions, a) that the property is true for at least one program and false for at least one program, and b) that the language is able to represent all computable functions
< 1756340872 501894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although constant languages make a) impossible to satisfy, they don't satisfy b) either, making the lack of satisfaction of a) irrelevant
< 1756340899 500472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :condition a) is mostly there to exclude trivial properties like "the program starts executing", which would otherwise be counterexamples
< 1756340963 444626 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's fair. (b) is really the issue there.
< 1756341048 90931 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW the computable-universe perspective has a natural excuse for (a). We're given a blackbox semantic computer N → N and asked to figure out *any* property of it. Well, since the blackbox can be partial, we can't *run* the computer. That'd immediately risk not returning. The only thing we can do without poking the box is return a chosen point of the codomain.
< 1756341095 343836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since the codomain is traditionally 2, there are two natural points that we can choose, each given by a constant arrow.
> 1756341220 78252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164055&oldid=163961 5* 03Corbin 5* (-18) 10Rice's theorem is basically not relevant since constant languages can't represent any interesting computations. Pointed out by ais523 on IRC.
< 1756341258 927887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the codomain doesn't really matter here, 2 is just the smallest codomain needed to give a useful result and it's possible to generalise up to bigger codomains from there
> 1756341334 606330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164056&oldid=163925 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10fixing typo
> 1756341517 558504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164057&oldid=160736 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+129) 10
> 1756341527 444183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164058&oldid=164057 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+251) 10
> 1756345881 805219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164059&oldid=164058 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+127) 10/* HTML programs */
> 1756346288 26858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang wiki graph with 24 nodes.png10]]"
> 1756346310 331888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164061&oldid=164050 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+208) 10/* Ideas */
> 1756346315 322919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164062&oldid=163891 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+46) 10
> 1756346325 388288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164063&oldid=164061 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+92) 10/* Ideas */
< 1756346549 42599 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
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< 1756347292 936348 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Server closed connection
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< 1756348026 714350 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756348039 223714 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1756348119 714010 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
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> 1756352362 923257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Psychopaths14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164064&oldid=122940 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10Change description
> 1756352789 236215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164065 5* 03None1 5* (+652) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It ignores the code and always executes a [[brainfuck]] interpreter. Since it ignores the code, it is a [[no-code esolang]].  ==Examples== ===[[brainfuck]] interpreter===  Any text can go here. ===[[Self-interpreter]]===  Any text can go here. ==
> 1756352796 243526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164066&oldid=164065 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1756352825 219814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164067&oldid=164066 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10
> 1756352920 619478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164068&oldid=163039 5* 03None1 5* (+82) 10/* General languages */
> 1756352941 510345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164069&oldid=164068 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* General languages */
> 1756353036 417579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164070&oldid=163754 5* 03None1 5* (+82) 10
> 1756353125 58168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permission denied14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164071&oldid=163991 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Example Programs */
> 1756353225 506445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permission denied14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164072&oldid=164071 5* 03None1 5* (+45) 10/* Implementations */
< 1756353389 686496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1756353818 681162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constellation Cradle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164073 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1630) 10stars and stuff i guess
> 1756353951 487871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constellation Cradle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164074&oldid=164073 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+142) 10credit
< 1756354871 957643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756355177 965284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1756361211 979010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164075&oldid=164056 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+103) 10/* Server 2 */
< 1756361834 4642 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756362698 800332 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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> 1756365389 2937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StupidStackLanguage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164076&oldid=145296 5* 03Lebster 5* (-1868) 10Rework interpreters
< 1756365974 20934 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
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< 1756367074 109599 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
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< 1756369487 460927 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756372126 908349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164077&oldid=164075 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+40) 10/* Server 2 */
> 1756372687 7599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164078&oldid=163927 5* 03Pro465 5* (+106) 10/* Cat program */ add smaller cat
> 1756374707 425969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ClickUp 5*  10New user account
> 1756375703 980831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164079&oldid=164077 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+13) 10
> 1756375856 317598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164080&oldid=164079 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+11) 10
> 1756375945 185994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164081&oldid=164080 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+33) 10
> 1756377768 274018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164082&oldid=164078 5* 03Pro465 5* (-106) 10/* Cat program */ Olus hasn't gotten got
< 1756378598 855890 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1756381339 208785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Intiha420 5*  10New user account
< 1756381427 502154 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756381906 927589 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756382665 296409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164083&oldid=164081 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-14) 10Add to server 2/4/4.5
> 1756382816 88891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wenyan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164084&oldid=146226 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+150) 10
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< 1756385147 107040 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756385897 626415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164085&oldid=164054 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+963) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ new section
> 1756386767 813325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164086&oldid=164085 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+105) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */
< 1756387801 660339 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1756387951 845491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164087&oldid=163890 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+28) 10Add Turing complete category (I'm practically certain it is, but I don't have an explicit construction)
> 1756388098 115325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PureFun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164088 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3731) 10Created page with "PureFun is designed by PSTF, where everything are functions.  It is based on [[Lambda calculus]].  = Core Principles = All values are functions: Booleans, numbers, pairs, and even control structures are defined as functions.  Evaluation Strategy: Use lazy evaluati
> 1756388171 780623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164089&oldid=163965 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14) 10
< 1756390548 602822 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756391485 219282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ahineya 5*  10New user account
> 1756391746 872489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164090&oldid=164037 5* 03Ahineya 5* (+204) 10/* Introductions */
> 1756391766 816328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164091&oldid=164090 5* 03Ahineya 5* (-1) 10/* Introductions */
< 1756391828 129395 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756392535 254667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Velato Hello, world! program in double sheets.png10]]": This is the dual stave version of the program "Hello, world!" in Velato, created by PrySigneToFry on Musescore 3.
> 1756392808 144364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164093&oldid=164086 5* 03Corbin 5* (+750) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ Too little too late.
> 1756392909 180751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PureFun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164094 5* 03Corbin 5* (+126) 10Tastes like RLHF.
< 1756393493 371347 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have lmarena.ai open in a tab and I'm feeding snippets of wiki to it. I promise that I'm not being nefarious; I want to understand what some of our younger non-Anglophone speakers are grasping, given that they appear to be heavily reliant on LLMs for translation and generation.
> 1756394398 337054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164095&oldid=164087 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+17) 10Add links to other languages
< 1756395004 504713 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756395246 154831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164096&oldid=163791 5* 03Ais523 5* (+25) 10/* R */ +[[Reversible Bitfuck]]  I think this is different enough from the original language to count (the programming style is somewhat different)
< 1756395537 213352 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. I'm reading the old discussions about quines, particularly about quineless TC languages, and it feels like there's some incommensurability. Like, folks are aware of Kleene's fixed point, but not of its implications.
< 1756395692 725752 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My thinking is that the set of natural numbers N has the fixed-point property in a computable universe: all computable maps N → N have a fixed point, and moreover they're defined at that fixed point. The theorem is constructive and proceeds directly from the fact that a computable universe has enumerations for all objects, including internalized maps [N, N].
< 1756395775 61147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, if one wants to have a quineless TC language, then one must start by reckoning with how their language will handle natural numbers and codes. I suspect that they'll find that they didn't really have a computable universe; they aren't actually able to enumerate some specific sort of first-class object.
< 1756396229 517918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna work the example from https://wwwep.stewartsplace.org.uk/quines/quineless.html which is attributed to ais523. Consider the language that is the union of Iota and question-mark-prefixed strings like "?asdf", but without the empty string. The attached semantics: if question-marked, emit the string; otherwise, reduce the string as an Iota program.
< 1756396230 296844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the typical quine-less TC language just picked program and output encodings that are disjoint
< 1756396292 77916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This language has semidecidable output! Just check whether the first bits are "?". So calling it "quineless TC" is a little unfair. It's TC in the sense that Iota is TC: interpreted as Iota, it's undecidable whether a program has a normal form under reductions.
< 1756396438 837189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and you can combine that with ais523's idea for adding arbitrary output capability)
< 1756396520 449298 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess, but I don't see how those can be usefully interleaved.
< 1756396640 159998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :take a language whose programs are non-empty strings over {0,1}, and whose outputs are strings over {a,b}; that's quine-less but can easily be TC. Add question-mark-followed-by-string-over {?,0,1,a,b} to make it "output-complete".
< 1756396653 577963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, I don't see how a clever encoding gets around the pipeline of TC-ness => Kleene's recursion => Rogers' fixed point => Gödel's diagonal lemma => Turing bird => self-application => WLOG access to own source code => quine.
< 1756396709 659428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The last step, "access to own source code => quine", runs into the output restriction.
< 1756396736 96630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the rest works, because you can pick suitable encodings for everything.
< 1756396838 358172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(IIUC ais523 takes this to its extreme by having a TC fragment that has no output at all)
< 1756396840 394528 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, then I think that the concept as documented is incoherent, or at least "evil" (varying under isomorphisms).
< 1756396909 374523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To me, a quine is an instance of Quine's construction, where "is preceded by some quoted text" is preceded by some quoted text. It's a natural consequence of the existence of Turing birds, themselves ensured by the diagonal lemma.
< 1756396980 336645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, category-theoretically I cannot be stopped from reading "a language whose programs are non-empty strings over 2 and whose outputs are strings over 2"; in FinSet (or Set!) there's no way to tell the difference between two-element sets, so there's no way to use labeling to artificially separate the domain and codomain.
< 1756397394 759118 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the final step of your quine recipe, you have to be able to take a quotation and output its contents. And that's easy to subvert if you're willing to cripple the language's output capabilities.
< 1756397454 108829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :informally, you want to be able to print an arbitrary string that your program computed
< 1756397467 927221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming your programs are strings)
< 1756397528 618454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And lacking that capability feels rather artificial... especially if the sole reason you're doing that is to prevent quines.
< 1756397560 436882 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection
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< 1756397591 165472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can do more silly things... like, the interpreter can track program and output and the moment the output matches the program, append a multi-ocular o.
< 1756397620 754565 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It also contradicts the spirit of the concept, as introduced and explained by Hofstadter. I popped open GEB. He has an entire dialogue on the topic of Quine's construction where he focuses on use-mention. He talks about programming ergonomics but only to note that a language can make it *easier* to write a quine, not harder or impossible.
< 1756397628 316859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which also prevents quines, though it almost certainly won't prevent you from printing a program that's equivalent to the original program.
< 1756397665 460590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not without giving the interpreter super-computable powers)
< 1756397715 543840 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :His main goal was DNA, a non-output barely-language! p531: "There is a biochemical analogue to the use-mention dichotomy: when DNA is treated as a mere sequence of chemicals to be copied, it is like mention of typographical symbols; when DNA is dictating what operations shall be carried out, it is like use of typographical symbols."
< 1756397819 350432 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p530: "It is not by any means coincidental that the phrases 'sufficiently strong support system' and 'sufficiently powerful formal system' sound alike. One is the precondition for a self-rep to arise, the other for a self-ref to arise. In fact there is in essence only one phenomenon going on in two very different guises..."
< 1756398014 363651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p449, mapping between truthiness and provability: "preceding a predicate by itself, in quotes ('quining')" <=> "substituting the Gödel number of an open formula into the formula itself ('arithmoquining')"
< 1756398235 469547 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p499, anticipating Muriel and ais523 somewhat: "In some computer language it might be a convention that nay program whose first symbol is an asterisk is to be copied before being executed normally. Then the program consisting of merely one asterisk is a self-rep! ...It is almost cheating to use the phrase 'this sentence' to achieve self-reference — it relies too much on the processor, and not enough on explicit directions for self-reference."
< 1756398300 561662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Using an asterisk as an example of a self-rep is like using the word 'I' as an example of a self-ref: both conceal all the interesting aspects of their respective problems. ... Before we call something a self-rep, we want to have the feeling that, to the maximum extent possible, it *explicitly* contains the directions for copying itself."
< 1756398477 664544 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :On p499 Hofstadter says that what we call quines, he calls "self-reproducing object[s]" or "self-rep[s]". Quining can build a self-rep in a sufficiently-strong system, but other self-reps are possible too.
< 1756398526 236558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: This isn't to yell at you, but to suggest that we've culturally misunderstood Hofstadter's definition and examples.
< 1756398655 864660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Hehe, an author being misunderstood? Get in line... )
< 1756398774 425029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one way to get around output restrictions, btw, is to change the interface: rather than "asking" the program to print is own source code, ask it to answer computable queries about its source code.
< 1756398974 677298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Though you need input capabilities for this. But we're far more used to dealing with encodings on that side.)
< 1756398999 264862 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I see much of a difference there. I'm still puzzled about output because the traditional formalisms I've listed on [[computable]] (lambda calculus, Diophantine equations, Turing machines, computable universes) don't have any notion of output. I'm not sure what I/O has to do with the story.
< 1756399080 449038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, TMs do have output conventions. (At least two, a dedicated output tape, or the final state of the tape when the program terminates.)
< 1756399136 99518 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But anyway, output enters the picture because otherwise you have no mechanism for replication.
< 1756399146 977573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs

< 1756399212 494519 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quining isn't about replication, but about quoting and self-reference. Self-reps can be generated by quining in sufficiently strong systems; that's the extent of the relationship between them.
< 1756399268 958290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the programming term "quine" has become to mean a program that prints its own source code and that requires output. I'm working backwards from that.
< 1756399276 142186 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that this is merely yet another case of programmers ignoring computer science.
< 1756399354 93467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just don't think it's a big deal.
< 1756399476 166719 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not globally a big deal, no. I do think that the whole "quineless TC" meme is a good example of programmer hubris. I also think that there are global issues that fundamentally arise from programmer hubris. But it's not worth editing the page.
< 1756399608 45881 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, although it's not a big deal, TMs *don't* have output. TMs generalize pen-and-paper work, and there's no notion of output there. We have grown used to a particular fancy machine that Turing did not describe, and we justify ourselves because we can craft an output by summarizing the tape, or craft an input by preparing the tape, etc.
< 1756399689 645864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let me guess, when you say "TM" you insist on using Turing's original paper as the sole defintion, and exclude all the other flavors that people tend to use, some of which do have output.
< 1756399719 570520 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's the same sort of imprecision as saying that a language has semantics. Nope! A language has syntax: letters, grammar, etc. We typically *equip* a language with a chosen semantics and want all operations to be semantics-preserving. This is the difference between a standard category and a slice category.
< 1756399761 555508 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When it matters, yes, I'd like to use *exactly* the same abstracta as other mathematicians.
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< 1756399796 339194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mathematicians can't even agree on whether 0 is a natural number.
< 1756399879 730489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 is an element of the initial semiring, regardless of whether people say "natural number" or "whole number". I mean, I could literally analogize this with a functor: programmers can't even agree on whether the always-failing regex is a legal regex.
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< 1756402272 598844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756402432 247252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I always understood the "TC languages have a quine" rule as "any TC language is able to compute a representation of its own source code and perform arbitrary operations on it that the language allows" – but there is no requirement that the language is actually capable of outputting arbitrary strings, so it might not be able to output the source code even though it can compute it
< 1756402632 38033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this conversation has got me thinking about alternative formulations – some suggestions (above and on linked pages) more or less collapse to "any programming language that you can compile brainfuck into has a quine" and I think that may be correct
< 1756402665 379893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it may be correct even with BF-without-, (i.e. output only, no input)
< 1756402742 368494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it feels like there should be a diagonal argument here
< 1756402776 547725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but the existence of the BF-to-language-X compiler is important as that compiler itself – i.e. its source code – is one of the inputs to the diagonalisation proof)
< 1756402955 976344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You can do basically everything in Brainfuck for this: Write the compiler in Brainfuck, use quining so that it runs on itself as input. The other language just becomes an intermediate representation for a Brainfuck interpreter.
< 1756402966 245270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, yes, this is an easy argument: suppose you have a compiler from BF-without-input to language X, written in BF; you can write a BF program that starts by creating data structures containing the compiler's source code and (using standard quine tricks) its own source code, then uses a BF self-interpreter to run the compiler on its own source code, then prints the output
< 1756402976 213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, we had the same idea I think
< 1756402989 925029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the BF-to-language-X compiler must produce a quine when written on that program, if it didn't it would be incorrect
< 1756402996 648885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* when run on that program
< 1756403062 945463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's that multi-language "Ouroboros" quine; that's related.
< 1756403065 133092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, this argument seems to only work because BF is deterministic
< 1756403129 376218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esoteric.codes/blog/the-128-language-quine-relay -- oh 7 years old already
< 1756403142 574900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it still works as long as the compiler is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation, even if it doesn't always produce the same output
< 1756403183 718709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I find that uninteresting because it doesn't require any actual logic in most of the languages – you can use one language that contains 128 compilers from outputs to programs that print a constant string
< 1756403194 47726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and only have to do the quining logic once, in that language
< 1756403244 340043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally, to avoid this problem, a multilanguage quine is defined to be a program that takes a language name or identifier as input, and outputs itself translated into the given language
< 1756403291 196397 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :True; it's degenerate in that for many language you don't actually have a compiler, just something that can print arbitrary strings.
< 1756403322 1853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, only one of the languages even needs to be TC
< 1756403339 618003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can relay through Deadfish if you like (especially if the next language in the chain has a syntax that's a list of numbers)
< 1756403471 923010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a bit more interesting if you optimize for size.
< 1756403474 297231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix show
< 1756403475 793596 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
< 1756403528 924362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen some quine relays optimised for size, unless you're very careful with proper quine rules they normally end up as literals that print themselves
< 1756403547 408345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, program A is "1\n" which prints "1" in language A, program B is "1" which prints "1\n" in language B
< 1756403567 820146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't think there was ever a consensus about what specificially it is that makes a quine into a proper quine
< 1756403628 275956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, with error quines you can probably create a really big quine relay through thousands of languages that has distinct source code in all of them and reaches its starting point, but none of the programs do any interesting computation
< 1756403765 656946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the "payload-capable" definition would help a lot (i.e. you can insert (an encoding of) an arbitrary string into the quine and it survives around the whole loop), and is probably objectively definable
< 1756403919 824892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also imagined that we'd fix a set of languages to use. Or maybe the full cycle (with order). Like, that 128 languages quine-relay thing feels non-artificial in that it includes a ton of mainstream languages and goes through them in lexicographic order. I don't know whether candidate languages were specifically rejected for being too unwieldy of course.
< 1756403965 296594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, one of them is Piet.
< 1756404062 236530 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You'll still cover the majority of languages with just string encoding of course, and pick the more expressive ones to actually do more elaborate recoding of everything.
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< 1756404328 846429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To bridge between "is deterministic" and "is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation", note that quining has some sort of quotation, and the contents of a quote have to be mentioned literally. It's the same use-mention quirk as with first-class and second-class syntactic constructs in general.
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