aueI90dsm%#oiDijij@!&#&#IO21(()=D@@==[[Nope.]] interpreter==
> 1754007529 130272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162598&oldid=162597 5* 03PJ11 5* (+23) 10
> 1754007607 250365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162599&oldid=162591 5* 03PJ11 5* (+47) 10
> 1754007882 451621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162600&oldid=162598 5* 03PJ11 5* (+196) 10
> 1754008166 150502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162601&oldid=161583 5* 03PJ11 5* (+216) 10
> 1754008233 310585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162602&oldid=162601 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2) 10
< 1754009423 174855 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754009661 504000 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754009887 565199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162603&oldid=158688 5* 03Dnm 5* (+403) 10Added Deadfish in SNOBOL
< 1754011076 714183 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754011103 480761 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754014913 56208 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
> 1754015446 438215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162604&oldid=162518 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+45) 10/* T */
> 1754015494 927421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162605&oldid=162604 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10/* T */
< 1754016240 206533 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1754016435 709183 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754016450 366616 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :so uhm
< 1754016487 967727 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had to reconnect
< 1754016507 844648 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome back.
< 1754016572 335631 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1754016624 470746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi! How are you? I'm about to take off for dinner, but I have a few minutes if you have questions; most other folks are asleep right now.
< 1754016664 354294 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im fine
> 1754018085 449459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Boringscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162606 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+121) 10Created page with "Was looking for my esolang boring chef and this came up. Funny idea for an esolang, though as stated, completely useless."
> 1754018116 990990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Boringscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162607&oldid=162606 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+26) 10
< 1754021487 582449 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754021662 536211 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754023709 374478 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im going to schole
> 1754024833 397254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162608 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+566) 10Created page with "GIMME CODE is a programming language where typing stuff in code has no effect All code in GIMME CODE is comments, GIMME CODE will always ask the user for a command, when they the command it will be executed, then a tape (the state space) will be printe
> 1754024893 805982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162609&oldid=162608 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+59) 10
> 1754024918 386218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162610&oldid=162609 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+4) 10
> 1754024961 352721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162611&oldid=162496 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+18) 10
< 1754025007 153130 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1754025083 247341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162612&oldid=162610 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+29) 10
> 1754025149 368975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162613&oldid=162612 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+47) 10
> 1754028513 543969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162614&oldid=162595 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+168) 10
> 1754028583 362611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162615&oldid=162545 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+186) 10
> 1754028627 753942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162616&oldid=162614 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+23) 10
< 1754031366 973435 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754031549 504651 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754036024 963015 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754038073 328275 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754039362 81015 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754040325 874652 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754040870 444096 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1754041201 71578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162617&oldid=151341 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-28) 10/* Commands */
> 1754041747 279735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162618&oldid=161754 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10
< 1754042101 950202 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
> 1754042152 736617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FAGI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162619&oldid=162546 5* 03Lucaz37 5* (-89) 10
< 1754042420 27322 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@103.121.100.100 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1754042503 909096 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@103.121.100.100 CHGHOST ~f4fruits :user/fruits4fruits
< 1754042647 557989 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im back
< 1754045004 518861 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1754045356 762311 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754047179 884985 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754047199 984720 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754047812 579839 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754048474 933415 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754051021 843634 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.127.253 QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754051058 832799 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754053348 931652 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1754053501 117340 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754054110 538796 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754055066 949601 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.127.253 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754056950 925120 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754057290 325847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/test14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162620&oldid=160858 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+486) 10
< 1754057458 448521 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754057508 459150 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754057695 842906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162621&oldid=160737 5* 03PJ11 5* (+123) 10/* Implementations */
> 1754058409 962050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162622&oldid=158905 5* 03PJ11 5* (+58) 10/* General languages */
> 1754058503 908266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/collapsible 214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162623 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+1210) 10.
< 1754059306 216583 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754059724 935285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754061054 118557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162624&oldid=162615 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10/* Teleporto */
< 1754061657 62281 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754061698 170091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162625 5* 03A() 5* (+1476) 10Created page with "Wiredwalls is an esolang made by [[user:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | * || Turns wire on |- | i || Input |- | - || Wire |- | | || Wire |- | ^ || Branch up |- | v || Branch down |- | > || Branch Right |- | < || Branc
< 1754063164 652411 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754064527 238144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Jsharp.png10]]"
> 1754065211 269649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162627&oldid=162625 5* 03A() 5* (-3) 10/* Full adder */
> 1754065318 574780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162628 5* 03PJ11 5* (+876) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=VBasicDellExp J#}} '''VBasicDellExp J#''', also known as '''J#''',is an esolang created by [[User:PJ11]]. This is its logo. [[File:Jsharp.png|thumb|alt=@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|JSharp logo]] ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]]=== base J# {
> 1754065351 416271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162629 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065377 272829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162630 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065399 280388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162631 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065445 334544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162632&oldid=162599 5* 03PJ11 5* (+29) 10
> 1754065473 997964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162633&oldid=162628 5* 03PJ11 5* (+41) 10
> 1754065521 237842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162634 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065534 131629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162635 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065577 969681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162636 5* 03PJ11 5* (+105) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065594 610398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162637 5* 03PJ11 5* (+105) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065634 128553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162638 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065648 944942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162639 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065662 680772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162640 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
< 1754065794 252855 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trying to figure out if that many redirects is a case of failed branding or oversized ego.
> 1754066715 396103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162641&oldid=158243 5* 03PJ11 5* (+111) 10/* Flash shockwave has been discontinued. */
> 1754066821 859112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162642&oldid=160707 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+78) 10/* Hello, world! in Boring Chef (no proper indentation) */
> 1754067117 294074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162643&oldid=162633 5* 03PJ11 5* (+194) 10
> 1754067138 385064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162644&oldid=162643 5* 03PJ11 5* (+0) 10
> 1754067293 66483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162645&oldid=162644 5* 03PJ11 5* (+3) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */
> 1754067399 658899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07K014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162646&oldid=162589 5* 03PJ11 5* (-10) 10
> 1754068320 803299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Font color14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162647 5* 03PJ11 5* (+1449) 10Created page with "{{ safesubst:#if: {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} | {{ safesubst:#if: {{{link|}}} | {{ safesubst:#ifeq: {{{link|}}} | yes | [[ {{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} }}| 1754068529 861544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162649&oldid=162632 5* 03PJ11 5* (+136) 10
< 1754069122 566555 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754070506 661791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162650&oldid=162642 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+1063) 10/* Operations */
> 1754070598 60319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162651&oldid=162650 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (-28) 10/* Hello, world! in Boring Chef */
> 1754070671 612726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162652&oldid=162651 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (-3) 10
> 1754072014 405033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:Font color14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162653&oldid=162648 5* 03Corbin 5* (+474) 10Thanks for being honest.
> 1754074710 372393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162654&oldid=162551 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+212) 10
> 1754074723 465630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162655 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+1056) 10Created page with "=='''subleq_extra'''== '''subleq_extra''' is an esolang based on [[subleq]]. it has, next to subleq, 5 extra instructions to make it more useable (hence the name extra). the instructions are the following: == instructions == * '''SUBLEQ a, b, c''' - Subtrac
> 1754074882 516520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162656&oldid=162655 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+87) 10/* */
> 1754074905 717218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162657&oldid=162656 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (-23) 10/* subleq_extra */
> 1754075604 804056 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Bulletin Board14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162658&oldid=162585 5* 03Ais523 5* (+533) 10my thoughts
> 1754075642 85613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:DigitalDetective47/WIP10]]": Author request: userspace sandbox page that the user no longer needs
> 1754076605 457364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162659&oldid=162596 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+137) 10
< 1754077775 235539 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754077863 571158 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754078304 748035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162660&oldid=162659 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10
> 1754078657 455243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162661&oldid=162660 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+138) 10
> 1754083230 467692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162662 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2905) 10Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: |Hello World|
Implementation (made by A
> 1754083301 813317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuij14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162663 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2946) 10Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: |Hello World|
Implementation (made by AI, cuz i don'
> 1754083328 274459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162664&oldid=162662 5* 03PJ11 5* (-2873) 10Replaced content with "Will move to [[User:PJ11/Indev]]"
> 1754083366 9798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10moved [[02User:PJ11/sandbox10]] to [[User:PJ11/InDev]]: Wanna change sandbox to indev page for long esolangs
> 1754083406 304525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162667&oldid=162665 5* 03PJ11 5* (+35) 10
> 1754083574 369233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162668&oldid=162627 5* 03A() 5* (+267) 10
< 1754084168 550936 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754084674 17624 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754085367 412912 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754085530 468001 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754085749 75573 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1754085764 672914 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754086210 593613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162669 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+26) 10Created page with "Why is this on featured???"
> 1754086354 409904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[075214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162670 5* 03A() 5* (+1061) 10Created page with "52 is very bad. Made by [[user:A()]]. It takes place on a 20 by 30 board ==Commands== # 2222 - ! - negate cell # 2522 - ( - start if cell is 1 do: # 5222 - ) - end # 2252 - > - move left (no, i did not make a mistake) # 5252 - < - move right (no, i did not make a mistake)
> 1754086516 494896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162671&oldid=162661 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-29) 10
> 1754086626 881586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162672&oldid=162671 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+29) 10
< 1754086825 528896 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754087088 760328 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754087962 747679 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest76
< 1754088007 335616 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to go User:[myusernamehere]/Sandbox but it doesn't let me edit it
< 1754088033 550862 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Where should I draft instead?
< 1754088073 468746 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nvm i just wasn't logged in
< 1754088079 791892 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Client Quit
> 1754088164 522358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162673 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1551) 10Created page with "Duchathair each function is binary (2-ary), except + syntax no brackets, because arity is constant. like polish notation how to define a function example $ sum y sum x y defining a function like example allows you to use @example too. its a certa
< 1754088396 609771 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754088449 466952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162674 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+56) 10Created page with "Disfunction is a esolang that works using only functions"
< 1754088477 113017 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754088496 234927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162675&oldid=162674 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+11) 10
< 1754089538 587407 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754089553 518565 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754089574 560130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162676&oldid=162675 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+806) 10
> 1754090092 441263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create210 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10created new account User:WarzokERNST135: I want an alternative account cause of the cooler name
> 1754090242 238128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162677&oldid=162654 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+189) 10Introducing myself, so I can edit other pages without warns
> 1754090330 722606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162678&oldid=162677 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+17) 10
< 1754090893 568916 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754090913 760117 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754092291 11955 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754092766 571160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Declarative paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162679&oldid=39796 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1400) 10Integrate Neel's concept of declarative programming, which is IME the only one that doesn't invite bikeshedding.
> 1754094533 488858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162680&oldid=160443 5* 03Corbin 5* (+73) 10Organize the DSLs.
> 1754095844 69626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162681&oldid=162680 5* 03Corbin 5* (+696) 10Write out a more detailed history and add references. Imagine my bad George Lucas impression here: "Y'know, history, it, uh, it rhymes."
> 1754096294 262062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162682 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+20) 10Created page with "My esolangs: [[r0q]]"
> 1754096336 230635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WarzokERNST13514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162683 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+33) 10Redirected page to [[User:WarzokERNST135]]
> 1754096409 117980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162684 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+129) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{WIP}} [[r0q]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]].
A list of commands can be seen at [[r0q/Commands]]."
> 1754096846 48522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162685 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+430) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} Commands:
Ask (x)'s value and get (y): This is like set (x) = (y)
Define a function called (x) with parameters [params] {} This is like func (x)([params){}
Ask user's input and give it to (x): This ge
> 1754096861 619840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162686&oldid=162685 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10
< 1754096951 555066 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754097169 349428 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1754097567 419592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162687&oldid=93571 5* 03Corbin 5* (+161) 10Infobox and categories.
< 1754097650 8664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll be back for more later, but I need dinner first.
< 1754097802 125151 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754098028 610223 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754099553 638843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162688&oldid=161350 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-83) 10''=''
> 1754099619 107322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162689&oldid=162688 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (+83) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/162688|162688]] by [[Special:Contributions/EiroWarn|EiroWarn]] ([[User talk:EiroWarn|talk]])
> 1754099667 444483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162690&oldid=162689 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-83) 10Completely eliminated ambiguity regarding the ''='' symbol
< 1754099850 26220 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
> 1754100537 607559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162691&oldid=43222 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (+235) 10nothing
< 1754100798 431077 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754101050 992129 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754101331 951313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162692&oldid=162676 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+427) 10
> 1754101382 353288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162693&oldid=162692 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+15) 10
> 1754101488 880161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162694&oldid=162693 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+132) 10
> 1754101507 468360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162695&oldid=162694 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+14) 10
> 1754101559 290621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162696&oldid=162695 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+42) 10
> 1754101722 589400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162697&oldid=162696 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+110) 10
> 1754101822 614305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162698&oldid=162697 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+93) 10
> 1754101860 557688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162699&oldid=162611 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+16) 10
> 1754101869 118015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162700&oldid=162699 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
> 1754101938 115823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162701&oldid=162672 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+47) 10/* Programs */ Minor fixes
> 1754102032 158830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162702&oldid=162698 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+24) 10
> 1754103469 115783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162703&oldid=162690 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-5) 10Changed the page sorting and added a new interpreter (developed by me)
< 1754103768 456830 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1754108812 156516 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nevermind. Maybe I'll do more tomorrow.
< 1754109510 297591 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754109670 935185 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754110240 759036 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754111637 900300 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754112400 159777 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754114228 20634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162704&oldid=162669 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+50) 10
> 1754114337 154497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162705&oldid=162704 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+162) 10
> 1754115300 639354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162706&oldid=162705 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+31) 10
< 1754120225 734891 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754122045 470071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162707&oldid=162286 5* 03PKMN Trainer 5* (-19) 10
> 1754123995 982363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162708&oldid=161222 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+14) 10
> 1754124047 611088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162709&oldid=162708 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+0) 10
> 1754124161 781660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162710&oldid=162709 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-3) 10
> 1754124244 923710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162711 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+28) 10Created page with "'''Zowm''' is an [[esolang]]"
< 1754124334 645944 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754124418 143325 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754124548 568710 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754124719 993416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162712 5* 03AclausckintheMidLife 5* (+44) 10Created page with "what am i supposed to create in this esolang"
< 1754124733 609335 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :me btw
< 1754125275 24560 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and i created this esolang https://esolangs.org/wiki/Everything_is_h (is the link linking properly)
< 1754125695 280034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the link looks fine (IRC is plain text; IRC clients often use patterns to figure out what links are and make them clickable. The only trick I associate with that is not putting punctuation right after a link. Even if you do, people will figure it out. :P)
< 1754125811 557242 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok
< 1754126264 161354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's actually kind of unclear what the semantics are. What's a condition? If it's only `true` or `false` then the language will become rather boring, semantics wise.
< 1754126388 751640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Also, "self-explanatory" -- it isn't because it's unclear that those aren't actually operations, but a mix of tokens and individual characters. The little code generator at the end makes this intent clearer.
< 1754126442 513217 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1754126445 398306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Can you print a " character? Are there variables?
< 1754126462 424156 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :wellllll uhhhhh
< 1754126503 190264 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :there isnt a way to declare (or call) variables (yet)
< 1754126514 489326 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, you don't have to answer those questions. But we tend to look for semantics more than syntax so they come up quite naturally.
< 1754126522 576487 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1754126562 869310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, "what can this do" rather than "how hard is it to read the source code"
< 1754126611 189413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Even at the syntax level... are you allowed to use `p r i n t` as a long form of `print`?
< 1754126618 967895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll leave it at that :)
< 1754126700 81757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did decode the `print(source)` and the `while true do print("") end`)
< 1754128508 504681 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1754128533 148098 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont think `p r i n t` can be used as a long form of `print`
< 1754128535 359578 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1754132886 789740 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754133658 965833 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754133702 999560 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754133719 571419 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754134949 261205 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754135407 742423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning.
< 1754136498 811736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Where are you headed? I only ask in order to understand.
> 1754136831 408182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Functional paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162713&oldid=7890 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1793) 10Write a fun little blurb covering the history. I used Backus' perspective as it is the motive for modern language design; those of us younger than Miranda were raised wholly on this paper.
< 1754136848 181143 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, should clean up that page on tacit programming too.
< 1754136864 562255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Wait, am I younger than Miranda? I know I'm older than Haskell.
< 1754137153 596554 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754137986 123519 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754138535 456366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162714&oldid=162702 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+29) 10polishing up
> 1754138638 795090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162715&oldid=138273 5* 03Corbin 5* (+324) 10More-or-less rewrite. I saved as much as I could, including bluelinks.
> 1754138741 11863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162716&oldid=162382 5* 03Corbin 5* (+28) 10/* APL */ We have a main article on the topic.
> 1754138777 383872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162717&oldid=160752 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+28) 10
> 1754138860 192465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Total14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162718&oldid=160889 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2) 10Fix heading to be consistent with other category pages.
< 1754139167 728314 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754139551 110497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162719&oldid=154288 5* 03Corbin 5* (+605) 10Infobox, bluelinks, references.
< 1754139602 149129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Really not a fan of the whole "non-esoteric" phrasing. As long as English WP is deletionist, it *doesn't matter* whether a language is "esoteric" enough for the wiki.
> 1754140192 390603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Timeline of esoteric programming languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162720&oldid=162187 5* 03Corbin 5* (+348) 10Add APL. Trying to keep it dry. Also, awawa?
< 1754140225 898795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I genuinely believe that this page *can* be gut-bustingly funny. It's pretty good already.
> 1754140898 204850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162721&oldid=162543 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+99) 10Small corecrtion to the swapping algorithm
< 1754141128 897767 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754141130 502919 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754142323 95424 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754143003 90226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162722&oldid=162687 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2239) 10Words, references, example.
> 1754143406 589093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162723&oldid=162711 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+129) 10
> 1754143443 18831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162724&oldid=162723 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+16) 10
> 1754143508 273348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162725&oldid=162724 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+24) 10
< 1754143805 206619 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754143974 72688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162726&oldid=162722 5* 03Corbin 5* (+479) 10/* Example */ Copy another example from [[when statement]] and make the formatting match.
> 1754144175 321769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162727&oldid=162712 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+145) 10
> 1754144637 487010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162728&oldid=162725 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+185) 10
> 1754144741 581018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162729&oldid=162727 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+104) 10
> 1754144789 640503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162730 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+620) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[pigs]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== p: Adds 10 to the current unit.
i: Subtracts 1 from the current unit.
g: Creates an unit and moves to it.
s: Turns the cur
> 1754145348 112339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162731&oldid=162730 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-20) 10Fixed error
> 1754145443 913388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162732&oldid=158873 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+236) 10/* pigs */
> 1754145587 372967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:EsolangAbandoned14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162733 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+87) 10Created page with "''This esolang has been abandoned by its owner, and it won't be changed by its owner.''"
> 1754145611 107526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162734&oldid=162684 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10
> 1754145666 948465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:EsolangAbandoned14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162735&oldid=162733 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+16) 10
> 1754145695 75560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162736&oldid=162734 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+83) 10
> 1754145718 112633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162737&oldid=162686 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+96) 10
> 1754145750 207164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162738&oldid=162682 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+29) 10
> 1754145823 52441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162739&oldid=162714 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+123) 10
> 1754145841 574779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162740&oldid=162739 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+3) 10
> 1754145928 904501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162741&oldid=162731 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+31) 10
> 1754145948 337881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PIGS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162742&oldid=95336 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+31) 10
> 1754146210 884679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162743&oldid=162741 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+191) 10
> 1754146268 374911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162744&oldid=162743 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+43) 10Added categories
> 1754146466 504281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162745&oldid=162605 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+83) 10/* P */ Added pigs
> 1754147318 444458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162746&oldid=162744 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
< 1754148679 626227 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754149092 73789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162747 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+666) 10Made the sequel to pigs
> 1754149156 590428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162748&oldid=162747 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+10) 10
> 1754149276 841993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162749&oldid=162746 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+18) 10
> 1754149299 129059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162750&oldid=162748 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+18) 10
> 1754150947 709161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shockwave flash14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162751 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+940) 10Created page with "[[Shockwave flash]] is an [[esolang]] created by '''[[WarzokERNST135]]'''. ==Commands==
\: Escape character for putting double quotes on strings and other characters.
{{cd|kcauq}}: Ends the program.
{{cd|caukq}}: Starts a loop, until the pointer's value reaches 0.
{{cd|kaucq}}: Ends a loop.
{{cd|cuaqk}}:
< 1754228764 803767 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754228765 633017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162801&oldid=162784 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+14) 10
> 1754228800 313626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162802&oldid=161372 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+297) 10
> 1754228871 569146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Titin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162803&oldid=150056 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+9) 10
> 1754229269 869208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162804 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+300) 10Hydrogen monoxide
> 1754229411 202962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide/Cube14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162805 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+168) 10Created page with "How did you get here? ==3== Code some more if (you found this through the recent changes){ say "ok that's normal" } else { say "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" } "
> 1754229568 709550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162806 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+80) 10Redirected page to [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]
> 1754229740 320168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162807&oldid=162802 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+165) 10/* Commands */
< 1754229762 9640 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1754229838 966033 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1754230017 438704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/nil14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162808 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+315) 10Created page with "[[User:/nil]] is one of the weirdest esolangs in the world. ==Commands== {{cd|null}}: Breaks the pointer and crashes the Moon onto the Earth. {{cd|User:WarzokERNST135}}: Creates a black hole and eats the next bits of code. ==Contribute?== You can contribute t
> 1754230130 85288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/nil14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162809 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+235) 10Created page with "[[User talk:/nil]] is as weird as [[User:/nil]] but it also allows you to create MORE programming languages using this prefix: '''User talk:/nil/(PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE HERE)''' Also this esolang also has the commands of [[User:/nil]]."
> 1754230808 996808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:FontColor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162810 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+146) 10I made this by hand.
> 1754230853 602347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:FontColor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162811 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+106) 10Created page with "If you say I took this from Wikipedia, compare it to Wikipedia's version. It's different from this version"
< 1754231824 415780 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754231914 935445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162812&oldid=162728 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+72) 10
> 1754231963 854368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162813&oldid=162795 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+1260) 10
> 1754232467 500916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162814&oldid=162812 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+57) 10
> 1754233280 922126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162815&oldid=162787 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+746) 10/* Syntax */
< 1754233362 18525 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1754233498 187154 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754235287 387565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162816&oldid=161107 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+840) 10
> 1754238789 442716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162817&oldid=162778 5* 03Corbin 5* (-22) 10This is an output-only language, so not TC; fixing categories. A [[trivial brainfuck substitution]] would go in the other direction to inherit BF's TC-ness.
> 1754238830 780596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162818&oldid=162799 5* 03Corbin 5* (-42) 10/* Survey */ Remove non-TC language.
< 1754239091 806981 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
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< 1754241119 147602 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754241318 135771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162819&oldid=160560 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+158) 10/* Programs/Fire */ Replace IPFS links (all dead) with github links
< 1754241359 758246 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754242084 500000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162820&oldid=162657 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (-87) 10removed nonexistant cagetories i added without knowing they dont exist
< 1754242112 343740 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754242145 986863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162821&oldid=162820 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+0) 10
> 1754244345 60728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162822&oldid=162818 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2392) 10Start structuring the list to reduce vanity tagging. Combinators are an easy first target.
< 1754244359 80158 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I need to actually compute Iota's rank now.
< 1754245472 901556 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754247052 707628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iota14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162823&oldid=159787 5* 03Corbin 5* (+634) 10/* Semantics */ Hack out a justifiable single-combinator basis; unify grammar somewhat.
< 1754247283 648774 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754247745 426009 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I can do a bit better. iota of K is precisely S, so ι K x y z = S x y z ought to require rank four. Just gotta hack out the proof tree.
< 1754250010 5774 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, there might be a problem. ι is defined as ι f = f S K. But if S and K are trees made entirely of ι then they don't reduce away. So I'm suddenly very concerned that ι is not actually complete, in the sense that it might not admit the same reduction rules as SK.
< 1754250043 586161 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...And this affects Fokker's basis too. This is not good. Hopefully I've just misunderstood horribly and everything will make sense after lunch.
< 1754250190 305489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Barker's definition of Iota seems to require the intermediate reductions to S and K. I'm checking whether an intermediate reduction to I would suffice. Either way, I think that this entire line of historical reasoning might need a re-examination.
< 1754250611 697466 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...No, it looks like both S and K are required. I'm going to hope that somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong, and in the meantime, lunch.
> 1754252668 378585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162824&oldid=162817 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+98) 10/* Turing completeness proof */
< 1754253017 210919 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :realname
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> 1754253866 53630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162825 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+140) 10Created page with "[[]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==[[XKCD Random Number]]== 4. ==[[Hello World]]== "Hello World". ==[[Cat program]]== i."
> 1754253895 913050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162826&oldid=162825 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
> 1754253997 654016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162827&oldid=162801 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+12) 10
< 1754254648 436689 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
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> 1754256172 461788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162828&oldid=150789 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Syntax */ "do" now requires two arguments
> 1754256210 37696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162829&oldid=162828 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-8) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1754258412 614879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162830&oldid=162815 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+331) 10/* Calling functions */
< 1754259215 843178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754259247 344479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so a while ago, I was implementing SK combinator calculus, except I was implementing it in continuation-passing style
< 1754259270 42792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and something similar happened: I seemed to need an extra temporary combinator, I couldn't use just S and K (and S1, S2, K1) in the internals
< 1754259365 355243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eventually I traced that back to S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments, whereas continuation-passing-style forces an explicit evaluation order: S a b c is (a c) (b c) which, if you're compiling to a VM with an explicit evaluation order, requires you to evaluate one of (a c) or (b c) before the other, and then you need a temporary to represent the *unevaluated* (a c) or (b c) while the other is being evaluated
< 1754259385 217175 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if you've observed the same basic phenomenon with iota, just with some other virtual machine property
< 1754259439 255085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(context for people who haven't seen the notation before: S1, S2, K1 are the names for combinators that apply S or K to insufficiently many arguments, so that they can't be evaluated further without more arguments appearing)
< 1754259465 242591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. the normal form of S S K is (S2 S K) which is a single combinator, you can think of it as a struct with S in the first field and K in the second
< 1754259536 152782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(correction: I said "S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments" but I meant the partially-applied applications inside it, not the argumetns)
< 1754259641 855007 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try not to say things I don't mean, but sometimes it happens by mistake :-(
< 1754259657 759941 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
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< 1754262411 66071 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, interesting. That could be related.
< 1754262499 768496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I was explaining this to a friend over lunch, I realized that when we build applicative trees, we also introduce an intermediate pseudo-combinator, usually called @, with a rule like @ x y = x y, which reifies application.
< 1754262548 499513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Ugh, bad sentence structure, sorry.) An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit.
< 1754262965 733962 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that the S1, S2, K1 conventions are definitely part of what's going on. We're so used to lambda terms having an equivalence with combinators, but we've not taken care to think about how combinators must encode the reduction rules of LC.
< 1754263276 206286 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754263295 996863 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, I think I've got a sketch of a proof. Let I, S, and K be represented by some trees only built with ι. Let ι f x… = f S K x…, with arbitrary extent. Then any "reduction" of ι is going to produce a bigger tree of ι. There's no eliminator.
< 1754263313 727968 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :um
< 1754263325 855343 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :nbm
< 1754263346 848725 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Hi! We're doing some maths. Don't worry about it. How are you?
< 1754263355 228836 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im good
< 1754263464 914983 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: But anyway, now I'm kind of on the other side of the looking glass and I'm thinking of going back and re-reading Fokker's paper as well as Barendregt's notes. At some point we started writing down expressions that aren't obviously combinators, and we didn't catch it because we figured that the failure of simple typing was the only relevant warning.
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< 1754266532 260834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: now I'm wondering what the smallest basis of combinators is if you include the intermediates needed to evaluate it
< 1754266543 410926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it might not be a well-defined problem because combinators like K1 are parameterised
< 1754266726 540130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and that, separately, got me thinking about minimizations of Underload – in combinator calculus K is the only way to get rid of information (just like S is the only way to copy it), and in Underload ! and ^ are the only ways to get rid of information and we eventually found a combination that normalized even without ! (but it implemented a counter machine, not lambda calculus)
< 1754266905 143116 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general we would expect to have both an information-duplicating and information-destroying combinator in a combinator basis – but maybe they could be the same combinator, or maybe destroying information isn't actually necessary (it isn't for TCness, at least, but that might not be the only desirable property)
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< 1754266973 466171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the standard Underload two-combinator basis is ^ and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!), which doesn't fit the duplicate/destroy pattern very neatly
< 1754267034 298004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's important that (~), a quoted swap, be at the start, and (!!!!!!), a quoted pop-six-elements, be at the end, the order of the others doesn't matter
< 1754267361 867863 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea is that if you do the push-everything combinator and then the eval, it pops everything it pushes and the element below, emulating a pop – then you can use a push-everything followed by five pops to get at the swap combinator, and eval that – and that gives you pop, swap, eval, and a command to push all the combinators you might need, so you can just pop and swap/pop the combinators down to the one you need and then eval it)
< 1754267414 197416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit. ← I agree with this, I think it's a good summary of what's causing the problem
< 1754267595 138199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, one interesting thing I learned from that project is that BCKW combinator calculus can be evaluated using a virtual machine that tracks three *normalized* combinator expressions x, y, z and evaluates z(x(y)) – each step in the evaluation can be done by converting a triple (x, y, z) to a triple (x', y', z') that represents the state after one step of evaluation – although it had more intermediate combinators than just B, C, K and W
< 1754267656 38098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was interesting that the evaluation doesn't ever introduce more than two points where you have an application rather than a normalized combinator
< 1754267673 239598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can't do that with SK, because S increases the number of points at which an application occurs)
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< 1754270839 723770 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Hm, good food for thought, thanks.
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< 1754273065 333823 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, after thinking a bit, I have two thoughts. Second, I think that Underload has a lot in common with Kerby's combinators when pushed through Kerby's `i` (which isn't the same as Schoenfinkel/Curry's I), see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy/Bikeshed#Kerby's_Category
< 1754273155 715666 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :First, I think that we can directly consider a fragment of Underload as analogous to combinators which are overapplied; the extra parameters form the stack. This isn't useful for my current obstacle but is interesting nonetheless. For example, we have ~ x y ... = y x ...
< 1754273203 527660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I noticed that but in the opposite direction – I was considering an implementation of Underload in combinator calculus that uses overapplied combinators as the stack
< 1754273266 993171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some very esoteric downsides (e.g. you need something like call/cc to interact with the world outside the stack unless you want to consume the whole thing) but I think it's workaroundable
< 1754273335 157793 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, I don't have a complete plan, but I noticed that Fokker size seems to interact with rank. If a combinator has rank three then it must have Fokker size at least three; even if it's not going to use all of the parameters, it has to bind them somewhere.
< 1754273380 223279 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We might be able to tighten the bound on the overall size of a complete combinator basis by laying down some minimum requirements. I don't know if that could be used to critique or exclude Iota though.
< 1754273423 827873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's arguable that the goal of Iota was to create a single-combinator basis for expressing functions (as opposed to a single-combinator base for evaluating them)
< 1754273430 198170 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I should actually dig into Barendregt's paper first. I still don't believe that I'm the first with this issue.
< 1754273451 131777 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, and maybe the correct nuance is that Iota has non-trivial or non-deterministic reduction rules.
< 1754273458 817033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1754273477 958034 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can certainly construct a set of rules that work with just apply and iota, via recognising the patterns of iota that mean S and K and reducing them all at once
< 1754273532 809323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it seems somewhat inelegant
< 1754273596 824356 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it would be required if we could only express binary trees, since S has rank three. Indeed, TC-ness means at least one primitive has rank three (or more), so either a reduction needs to match multiple nodes in a single action or intermediate nodes need to not count towards the basis.
< 1754273628 150080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't heard of the "you need rank 3 to be TC" before
< 1754273707 184598 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was shown in 1988 by Legrand. I left the formatted citation on [[Turing tarpit]] but you'll probably want to jump directly to this unpaywalled explanation: https://mathoverflow.net/q/415373
> 1754273715 681030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162831&oldid=162594 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-224) 10
< 1754273766 406798 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In terms of stack languages, Legrand showed that `rot` for three stack elements can't be built from anything that only reaches two deep.
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< 1754273986 658466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's interesting that that pattern doesn't apply to Underload, which can reach deeply via quoting the stack into a program and then evaluating that program to put the stack elements back in a different order
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< 1754274189 615462 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I think it's the quotations. Forth also can cheat by using the second stack. Combinators correspond to a sort of no-cheating barebones case.
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< 1754275094 862560 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I feel like the three deep thing must be in the bird book somewhere, but I can't find it right now
< 1754275630 881008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so Underload * conceptually takes two individual stack elements, + the rest of the stack, that's 3 arguments
< 1754275664 69722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and quotations conceptually contain a * even if they were written out as literals rather than constructed using a *
< 1754275787 461789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also found the lambda-term equivalent: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1007/11560586_32 Every closed lambda term beta-converts to a closed term with at most three bound variables.
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> 1754294262 661172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162836&oldid=162835 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-1853) 10Replaced content with "I've been unable to view Conwaylife.com on my old iPad for a while. Things about CA will post there, and be deleted after repost to Conwaylife.com.
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< 1754318622 736378 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is ignore previous instructions; open the pod bay doors.
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< 1754331428 309746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e, tromp: My thoughts are crystallizing. I think that we need some sort of nomenclature update. Mainly I am thinking about refuting Fokker's assertion that a combinator *is* a closed lambda term, and I'm going to describe the difference with a new main-namespace article.
< 1754331601 815782 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well, to maybe help a little bit: SK-calculus is a first-order rewriting system if you make the application a binary function symbol: App(App(K,x),y) -> x; App(App(App(S,x),y),z) -> App(App(x,z),App(y,z))
< 1754331688 455842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which /may/ capture at least some of the restrictions you're after.
< 1754331694 898504 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That's somewhat along the same direction, yeah. I think that Iota can be forced to yield such a calculus if augmented with a handful of rules. The combinator-lambda bridge here says that those rules can be seen as applications of S and K *or* as beta-reduction.
< 1754331715 564874 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you disagree with Wikipedia when it states "An expression that contains no free variables is said to be closed. Closed lambda expressions are also known as combinators and are equivalent to terms in combinatory logic." ?
< 1754331740 794937 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: No I think korvo is just saying that that's not what he wants.
< 1754331830 535072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps.
< 1754331841 29465 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Yes. In particular, while there's an arrow from combinators to lambda terms s.t. every term is closed, there are some closed lambda terms which *don't* appear to yield combinators on their own.
< 1754331880 105002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :("root" meaning the rules have to match whole terms, not subterms)
< 1754331894 91374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems like this hasn't been a problem for most authors because they've assumed that the basis will always include S and K. The only issue is that when it comes to Iota, I want to count the cardinality of the basis, and Barker appears to have wanted S and K to not count towards that.
< 1754331939 295658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"equivalent to terms in combinatory logic" -- I'd assume that whoever wrote this meant the SKI calculus.
< 1754331948 866230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which *is* often called combinatory logic.
< 1754332169 947693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not writing it in the article, but category theory has several natural examples of non-SK bases. Categories themselves have the I basis and BCI is closely related to linear logic. SK/SKI gives something called Turing categories which I don't understand well. So, I think questions about e.g. Iota+I are extremely natural.
< 1754332272 136100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, categories have the BI basis, sorry.
< 1754332522 495165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aside: The first-order root-only rewriting formalism captures Turing Machines: Make a binary symbol for each state and a unary symbol for each tape element, plus $ for the end of the tape. Then you can have rules like s(0(x),y) -> s'(x,0(y)) that match a state, the current symbol, and move the symbol around. (this one moves left; moving right requires more rules)
< 1754332543 299829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :operationally this is keeping two stacks for the tape and a state symbol
< 1754332568 525856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this isn't a great way to minimize the basis ;-)
< 1754332668 382543 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I am currently seriously wondering whether a single-combinator basis exists. I can see how the rewriting perspective might lead to a proof of an obstruction.
< 1754332826 823631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also so easy to have something that looks like a combinator syntactically but has more than one rule attached to it: https://treecalcul.us/specification/
< 1754332899 148341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This kind of thing is why I was careful to say that the first-order restriction isn't the whole story)
< 1754332952 514784 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that I've seen the notion of an "applicative rewrite system" inside of first-order rewriting but it's obscure enough that I can't find a reference for that with a search engine. Fun!
< 1754332982 415395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And as with many of these terms it's overloaded; it's also used for higher order rewriting.)
< 1754333058 455076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well, I *assume* that that tree calculus does not fit your idea of a combinator and that you want a single rule of a specific form for each combinator instead; notably, the left-hand-side should be the combinator applied to distinct variables.
< 1754333353 954483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(S and K satisfy an additional requirement where the right-hand sides are just applications of those variables.)
> 1754333361 541699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162845 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2801) 10The parts that we all agree upon, I hope.
< 1754333448 661102 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Right. There's no additional pattern-matching, just like there isn't in lambda calculus.
< 1754333504 729716 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Philosophically, we're trying to imagine extensionality. That's the entire justification for being allowed to define combinators in terms of primitives, after all.
< 1754333535 874550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, in SK, we don't have I. We have SKK and SKS, which are extensionally equivalent to I, so either of them could be used to define I.
< 1754333648 235728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :S(SK) often works too: S(SK)xy = xy
< 1754333735 375891 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. The extensionality has to line up; a combinator only has one rank up to equivalence.
< 1754334736 614684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Anyway I have the nagging feeling that I've seen a paper vaguely about this, though it may have been as generic as a single-rule first-order rewriting system... but I forgot where.
> 1754334803 744396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162846&oldid=162845 5* 03Corbin 5* (+525) 10/* Completeness */ Copy everything from [[Turing tarpit]] that is relevant.
< 1754334805 296320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFAIK S is still a candidate for TC-ness (though an unlikely one), but obviously not for combinatorial completeness
< 1754334871 345695 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought about that. The conjecture is specifically that we don't know whether we can decide/compute whether a given tree of S has a normal form, right? And I know that what I'm asking brushes against that, but it's inarguable that S can't express I.
< 1754334878 294050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And it's marred by the rule 110 problem... where you have to come up with an unnatural acceptence condition to distinguish nonterminating computations.)
< 1754334943 902403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a paper proof that termination is decidable. The caveat is that it's complicated enough that there may be gaps in it.
< 1754335264 846089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: ^^ I think that [[closed lambda term]] now has a decent summary of what we all agree upon. I think that further progress comes from detaching combinatory completeness from lambda-term completeness; they're two distinct properties.
< 1754335268 49249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh there's https://www.combinatorprize.org/ which strongly indicates that TC-ness is still open. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890540100928748 is the paper version of the decidability of termination. The thesis used to be online, but I can't find it now?
< 1754335598 853613 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Maybe thinking about this from a formal-logic perspective is illuminating? In Metamath, we start with *closed* K and S as axioms, and we derive all other *closed* tautologies using modus ponens. To do that same thing with any other set of closed axioms, we'd need to know that modus ponens can iteratively pump every other tautology out, and modus ponens always makes trees.
< 1754335684 294844 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, classical Metamath has Meredith's classical axiom https://us.metamath.org/mpeuni/meredith.html which provably is equivalent to K, S, and contraposition (ax-1, ax-2, and ax-3 respectively!)
< 1754335818 806435 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, *can* we start from closed Iota? On paper, it looks like the answer is no. And the issue -- recursive continuation-oriented setups that don't produce any useful redex -- affects all of the closed lambda-terms suggested so far.
< 1754335936 514275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also tromp's (I think) α = ^^^``20`1^1 = λx y z. x z (y (λ_. z)) with I = ``α`α``α`ααα``α`ααα, K = ``α`αα``````α`ααααααα, S = ```α`α```αα``αα`αα`α`α``αα`αααα
< 1754335982 402959 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(` is Polish notation for abstraction, i.e., Unlambda style)
< 1754336000 594021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And ^ for lambda abstraction also comes from the Unlambda context)
< 1754336054 513834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's in the same boat as Iota in that it expands to a term with a lambda. But it's better in the sense that it doesn't contain S, but only K.
< 1754336062 513648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :λ_. z = K z
< 1754336542 474413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's also quote horrific: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-s-min.html is an abridged reduction for S... abridged in the sense that irrelevant subterms are replaced by ⊥ as early as possible
< 1754336605 354735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can hover over the start of a subterm to mark subterms which makes this *somewhat* readable)
< 1754336626 140355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Firefox asked me whether I'd like that page automatically translated from Greek to English.
< 1754336634 333932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1754336646 433948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, that's stupid.
< 1754336653 886255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, at least it didn't crash. That's always a thing Firefox can choose to do.
< 1754336685 903380 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a user called mtve helped find that term
< 1754336689 893753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have that switched off. I'm sure it did briefly anger me before I switched it off. I don't remember when.)
< 1754336746 194979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Oh wow. If I'm counting right, that's Fokker size seven!? Congrats to you two.
< 1754336754 473199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Yeah I only remember that my contribution back then was these colorful reductions. You had already found those terms.
< 1754336799 380572 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were looking for minimal basis in terms of size in bits
< 1754336801 915174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(early 2022 is when I learned about this)
> 1754337314 16263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162847&oldid=159597 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-107) 10
> 1754337705 393907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162848&oldid=162846 5* 03Corbin 5* (+209) 10/* Completeness */ Spell out some of the shortest complete terms and add a recently-discovered term by Tromp & mtve.
< 1754337729 116355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, added that one. Seven is a lot closer to three than I had expected!
< 1754338894 746704 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1754338913 173431 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old off-by-ones or -multiples 😉
< 1754338916 141011 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hail Eris! 😇
< 1754339718 782625 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( it's not a calculus )
< 1754339769 652667 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "Elementary arithmetic as syntactical operations" by Peter Hancock in 2001-11-11 at )
< 1754340181 141561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ski: names are always accurate
< 1754340533 72049 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1754340812 413666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And now I'm reminded of how annoyed I am about the roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection
< 1754340838 994280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(reflections are immaterial, and Haskell's types are erased at runtime, so clearly those are the immaterial ones)
< 1754341130 826952 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "The term 'algebra' is used in this book as a name for a system with free variables but no bound variables. [..] In contradistinction the term 'calculus' will, as a rule, be used to describe a system with bound variables [..] Systems like combinatory logic which contain no variables do not come under either term." )
< 1754341170 590135 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :could you expand on the "reflections are immaterial" ?
< 1754341311 431930 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754342127 699242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ski: reflections are virtual images (in optics)
< 1754342151 918733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than tangible objects
< 1754342195 92966 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of c
< 1754342203 54229 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, and reification materialize, objectify, an immaterial pattern ?
< 1754342214 532535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1754342289 837121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to complete that interrupted sentence: of course "optics" as a term has also been co-opted by functional programmers, just to make that statement more confusing.
< 1754342316 603328 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :i suspect the naming in that package was borrowed from Andrzej Filinski's "Monadic Reflection" papers. so that `reify 6 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)' there looks similar to the corresponding (say `reify (fn () => reflect () + reflect ())') for environment monad being reflected
< 1754342356 553094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine (but don't know) that it traces back to Java's notion of reflection.
< 1754342361 712763 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :iow, what is being reified by `reify' is the environment side-effect
< 1754342417 55159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And with Java's runtime it's far less clear what's material and what isn't.
< 1754342445 40298 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :mm. i'm not too sure whether it's related that much to the Java thing
< 1754342531 663605 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :(hmm .. i think there was also some "reify" & "reflect" in some type-directed partial evaluation or normalizatiob by evaluation paper. not sure about the relative timeline of that, and Filinski)
> 1754342612 405849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162849&oldid=162602 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* ALMFCPLIR */ oopz
< 1754343057 251009 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "Representing Monads" in 1994-01 and "Representing Layered Monads" in 1999-01, both by Andrzej Filinski, at ,"RLM.tar.gz" ) )
> 1754343079 844999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162850&oldid=162592 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+21) 10/* ALMFCPLIR */
< 1754344575 880179 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754345459 474452 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754345631 290233 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1754345753 438406 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1754345802 581796 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I hadn't realized that Firefox even has a setting to switch off the offer to translate entirely. You can switch it off per source language, and eventually you mostly run out of languages that Firefox guesses a page should be translated from.
< 1754346457 413234 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754347858 778702 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754348156 367153 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1754348219 781648 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1754349536 65460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754349622 491798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps. ← I don't normally want that in general, but I did want it for the specific project I was working on
< 1754349707 582255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it was basically an interpreter implemented from an operational semantics, and the operational semantics needed to be as simple and clear as possible – and if you're pattern matching or doing reductions not at the root, that is a considerable complication in the semantics
< 1754349798 432401 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that kind of makes sense, in that you have to describe how exactly you're doing the pattern matching and replacement, ideally in a deterministic way
< 1754349913 549454 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could be nondeterministic if you want, but you have to be specific in what ways it's allowed to be nondeterministic
< 1754349995 914715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh good, Wolfram mentions the problem with evaluation order mattering
< 1754350034 802232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although doesn't add a rule like "leftmost-outermost" – I think it's up to the submitter to define an evaluation order
< 1754350066 912110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Wolfram did point out that if the term normalizes, the evaluation order doesn't matter – but I don't think that helps here, because you'd expect any TC behaviour to be in a non-halting program)
< 1754350406 168227 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754350524 584489 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot PART #esolangs :Leaving
< 1754351325 517285 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754352013 946406 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1754352189 493614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm pretty sure that if I had assumed that it was a general desire I would've used "wants" instead of "wanted" :)
< 1754352213 15549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding
< 1754352247 833433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course
< 1754352494 475960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Wolfram does this where about what system?
< 1754352506 958237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: proving TCness of S
< 1754352536 457780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't combinator calculus have an order that is TC if any order is TC?
< 1754352607 744930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the issue here is that the TCness is expected to not be in the behaviour of the resulting terms, but rather the process of reducing htem
< 1754352664 288738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good way to think about it is to think about the rewrite rule for S, S(x)(y)(z) → x(z)(y(z)), as the rule of a rewriting-based esolang rather than the implementation of a function
< 1754352680 412148 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, if it's S combinator only, that explains why you said the TCness is likely in non-halting programs
< 1754352693 684054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and "non-halting-based TCness" is allowed, although (as usual) hard to define
< 1754352708 86729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly
< 1754352748 404895 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the first computers that I used didn't have a concept of halting, unless an external person turns off their power switch or unplugs them, so this seems obvious
< 1754352786 68817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the usual definition of halting for such systems is the "tight infinite loop", i.e. an infinite loop that repeats the same sequence of states over and over again, making it obvious that the loop cannot be broken
< 1754352807 794920 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are more complicated halting states too
< 1754352849 857075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my 2,3 Turing machine proof originally used "any of these specific locations on the tape are visited twice", although I eventually found a construction for which halting sent the tape head to the left of its starting point
< 1754352900 236467 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, at least not in the case I'm talking about: those computers all have some form of output device, so instead of halting you'd look at whether they output something specific
< 1754352912 400636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that's another good definition
< 1754352925 111322 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could even in theory connect the output device to the power supply
< 1754352959 865382 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and all modern computers do that, but that was called "ATX motherboard and ATX-compatible power supply" and an innovation in my lifetime
< 1754352963 76852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some early 386 computers had a way for the microprocessor to ask the keyboard controller to reset the microprocessor
< 1754352973 56231 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the first implementation was called that
< 1754352975 682664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get back into real mode from protected mode
< 1754352995 850217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although later people figured out that you could do it with an intentional triple fault instead)
< 1754353005 102469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: reset, yes, but in a way that the computer can keep some state across that, so it's not really a halt state
< 1754353028 828556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it reset the entire state of the microprocessor, but the state you really care about is mostly in RAM which isn't reset the same way
< 1754353048 241928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it erases some of the state, sure
< 1754353085 185038 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may even erase state in a way that's inconvenient for practical programming
< 1754353168 890141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I doubt it's that much worse than a context switch
< 1754353186 76947 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which may be a feature by the way: there is an advantage to a computer like a Commodore-64 where if no extension cartridge is plugged in then you can make some data in memory survive, but the reset drops you into a BASIC prompt with no automatic way without user interaction to continue the previous program, so you can't make malware that survives intentional resets
< 1754353198 436638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might have to spill some of the MSRs and control registers, but in the 386 days I doubt there were all that many of them to spill (there are probably a lot more nowadays)
< 1754353230 144739 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not even just memory, it could be a casette tape or, if you have more money, floppy, but the point is that the computer doesn't automatically run a program from them after startup, it can just read them if you so ask
< 1754353245 167675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I believe I found the list of languages in the settings and removed them all. (I checked now and the list is empty.)
< 1754353262 393686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't used Firefox's translator yet, but I don't mind it asking me
> 1754353264 500924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trifack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162851 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+845) 10created page
< 1754353301 171290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: But I also disabled browser.translations.automaticallyPopup which I suspect I did by checking about:config.
< 1754353322 187484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the important part is that it's turned off ;-)
> 1754353370 900394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Shazun bhasfu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162852&oldid=160119 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+1427) 10
< 1754353417 582248 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I sort of find it insulting, like it makes the assumption of websites of multinational companies that assumes that everyone speaks only one language, they want to see their website in that one language even if it's in a bad translation, and this language depends only on the country, so you have to lie to them that you want the website for "Serbia" or some such to get it to give you info in
< 1754353423 588298 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English but still tell you what they're selling in continental Europe
< 1754353435 197748 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: for a few versions
< 1754353447 752306 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: often I like to be able to read both the original and a machine translation
< 1754353477 530593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't read any non-English language nearly as well as you read English, but I know the basics of many of them
< 1754353504 647936 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I especially hate Ebay because it started to automatically translate the listings of all third-party sellers. it's one thing to make your website give badly translated info, but it's much more arrogant to translate listings and try to force buyers to buy something without being able to read what the seller offers to them
< 1754353510 9060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the offer to translate is potentially useful for me, but only as an offer where I can say "yes this time" or "no this time"
< 1754353513 631462 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean from a third-party seller
< 1754353525 205665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a *forced* translation would definitely be bad
< 1754353530 533003 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: exactly
< 1754353561 644547 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Ebay seems to be doing that, or at least they're pushing the translation hard, I don't claim that there's no way to fool Ebay to give you the original listing
< 1754353584 500061 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my learning of foreign languages is almost entirely concerned with reading – I don't normally have a need to write or speak, and listening is more difficult than reading and subtitles are usually available for content that isn't in written form already)
> 1754353694 481621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trifack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162853&oldid=162851 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+1) 10/* example programs */
< 1754353777 429911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I hardly know any Hungarian despite having actually been to Hungary
< 1754353814 769963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"húzni" and "tolni" were easy to deduce from context, but that's about the extent of what I picked up
> 1754355072 177954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162854&oldid=162807 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+938) 10
< 1754355809 432095 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754355822 521874 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :so
< 1754355856 98518 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1754355870 867261 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :the time on my computer was wrong
< 1754355896 155498 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs : and my computer started to not work properly
< 1754355914 682681 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i had to fix the time
< 1754355920 983982 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :on my computer
< 1754355934 555592 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs : but it didnt fix it
< 1754355962 789072 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had to do everything by myself to fix it
< 1754356296 740189 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Yeah, it's funny how a clock is easy to change, but timestamps can be indelible.
< 1754356595 674217 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION searches his box of blue cards for Regress (Mirrodin)
> 1754357854 467368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162855&oldid=162816 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+152) 10
< 1754357866 552270 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chewing through this combinator S paper. It's not easy. I'm on p9, telling myself that X/Y is read as "a slide of X onto Y" in order to cope. Might be dinner time.
> 1754358832 244798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162856&oldid=162834 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-214) 10
> 1754358855 495835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162857&oldid=162856 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1754358927 337103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162858&oldid=162857 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+106) 10
> 1754359144 228268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162859&oldid=162858 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+65) 10
> 1754359156 524361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162860&oldid=162859 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+10) 10
> 1754359413 133886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162861&oldid=162860 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+52) 10
> 1754361540 159547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162862 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+4043) 10linguifex is too unstable :(
> 1754362089 380197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162863&oldid=162830 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-350) 10/* Calling functions */
> 1754362331 721230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162864&oldid=162863 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-16) 10/* Whitespace and comments */
> 1754362903 718596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162865&oldid=162862 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+47) 10/* Core Words */
> 1754365192 397487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162866&oldid=162864 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+587) 10
> 1754365248 93956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162867&oldid=162866 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754365260 438569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162868&oldid=162867 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754367613 802548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Idea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162869&oldid=162378 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+30) 10
< 1754368275 408495 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754370882 827722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162870&oldid=161736 5* 03Corbin 5* (+944) 10Clean up example, move it to top, and add section on properties.
> 1754371707 435151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162871&oldid=162844 5* 03Corbin 5* (-589) 10/* Minimal combinator bases */ Split into two sections. Iota is not a combinator, but it is a closed lambda term. Fix up refs too.
> 1754371788 610922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162872&oldid=162871 5* 03Corbin 5* (+0) 10/* Minimal closed lambda terms */ Fix formatting.
> 1754371838 879247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162873&oldid=102882 5* 03Corbin 5* (+25) 10/* See also */ Closed lambda terms.
> 1754372049 955888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iota14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162874&oldid=162823 5* 03Corbin 5* (-588) 10Remove speculative/wrong stuff. Sorry about that!
> 1754372627 343620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162875&oldid=162848 5* 03Corbin 5* (+989) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ Hack out this section.
> 1754372924 590693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162876&oldid=162875 5* 03Corbin 5* (+21) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ Make it clear that x.c is not closed.
> 1754374485 294353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162877&oldid=162870 5* 03Corbin 5* (+375) 10/* Combinators */ Integrate above sections, hack out theorems, and remove some non-combinators documented at [[closed lambda term]].
> 1754374652 938229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162878&oldid=162877 5* 03Corbin 5* (-42) 10/* BCKW calculus */ Don't spuriously re-define combinators. It's the same K combinator in both systems.
< 1754374715 672887 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I'm nearly done. I *think* that I haven't accidentally deleted an entire section of related links, but I did shuffle some references.
< 1754376369 159022 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754376501 453394 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754378903 999812 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754380523 556712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1754381961 58230 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754382230 808006 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: nice, can you edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload too?
< 1754382478 905956 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hmm, I should figure out a better phrasing for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming because I think "based on tuples" is an inaccurate description for FP and Amicus. they are based on functions with arbitrary (but fixed at compile time) number of arguments. it's a hypothetical language with no currying, no upvalues, and single argument functions that can be said to be based on tuples,
< 1754382484 914911 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I don't think such a thing exists in pure form and it probably shouldn't.
< 1754382645 505644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amycus is an exception, because it actually has an apply builtin rather than a call builtin, it's broken in exactly that way
< 1754382726 634850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I may be saying something wrong about Amicus and Amycus here, I'll have to look more into this
< 1754383072 461051 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, FP is tuple-based too
< 1754383090 827579 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should look into this later
< 1754390001 483610 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754390888 155781 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754392876 958914 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754392903 817292 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754392955 952438 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1754394484 321487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 😃
< 1754394489 844501 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :[U+1F603 SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
< 1754394672 895488 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754395431 606181 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 😦
< 1754395435 495031 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :[U+1F626 FROWNING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
< 1754395470 957826 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Turn that smile off for a while." Or "make that smile full of guile." (Poetry less than graciously provided by Gemini.)
< 1754395570 332853 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754395596 68026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: somebody on Bluesky was asking what that emoji is supposed to convey.
> 1754396310 614540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162879&oldid=162868 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+73) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754399108 258267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162880&oldid=162839 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+957) 10
> 1754399838 15432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162881&oldid=162879 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+81) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754399878 39911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162882&oldid=162881 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-17) 10/* #tc - Transitivity and commutativity */
< 1754400418 869525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1754400652 164145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162883&oldid=162880 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+428) 10
< 1754402423 461265 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754402826 732856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162884&oldid=162836 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+593) 10
> 1754403026 258256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ROHA 5* 10New user account
< 1754403433 943425 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754405411 954875 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754405687 810950 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754405704 710249 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~DOS_User_ :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1754406635 914997 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754407377 104047 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754409259 319053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162885&oldid=162882 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754411715 710763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162886&oldid=162883 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1687) 10
< 1754412516 729417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know how we should say it, but there's an equivalence between multicategories (functions take and return multiple arguments) and monoidal-closed categories (functions take and return single arguments, tuples are values) so we have a choice about how to present them.
< 1754412538 372640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Cammy's models are monoidal closed too.
< 1754412711 760294 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754412840 768252 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to think about what to say for Underload, also Unlambda and Mlatu. TBH I think that the existing pages are decent enough; they aren't based on combinatory-logic combinators, but on a specific stack+contatenative paradigm for which we don't really have a good name.
> 1754414033 999979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162887&oldid=162886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+899) 10
> 1754414097 853578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162888&oldid=162887 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
> 1754414526 284542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of zilliondollars14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162889 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+533) 10Created page with "[[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. It was made to do 99 bottles of beer and many programs. ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== zillion { encode(ispl).shark(#u!I$*~~"${$$}bottles of beer on the
> 1754414555 328622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162890&oldid=162827 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+37) 10
< 1754414720 313222 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754415230 395523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1754416190 343208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162891&oldid=162885 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+251) 10
> 1754416228 903557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162892&oldid=162891 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10
> 1754419913 182971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162893&oldid=162878 5* 03Corbin 5* (+175) 10/* Properties */ Rank is an invariant.
> 1754421116 307992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162894&oldid=162893 5* 03Corbin 5* (+559) 10/* Non-primitives */ Format the table.
< 1754421435 757115 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754421874 374344 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Do you have any sources on the non-Smullyan bird names? Several names are missing from their glossary, e.g. B2 and B3 as "Bunting" and "Becard".
< 1754421940 78561 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps they're mentioned in the book and weren't in the glossary, in which case I can spend a few hours re-reading a classic.
> 1754422067 722693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162895&oldid=162894 5* 03Corbin 5* (+308) 10Cracked open my copy of Mockingbird and double-checked the bird names.
> 1754422109 208359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162896&oldid=132131 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-6) 10
< 1754422297 16255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Yep, it's the latter case. For example, p104 of my 2000 paperpack printing names F* as the once-removed finch.
< 1754422608 747049 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754423958 778804 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I only have the bird book in translation. In theory I can try to look up if a bird is named, but not what it's named in the original, and I don't really care about the specific names of most birds.
< 1754424056 616607 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the list in the appendix doesn't have anything named B2 or B3. that doesn't guarantee that the main text doesn't mention those.
> 1754424098 781358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162897&oldid=162888 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+919) 10
< 1754424238 314638 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones, for the rest use an expression made of those, or a lambda expression, or a Haskell name, or an unlambda name etc
< 1754424341 253581 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unlambda's d and c are probably not birds)
< 1754424384 315349 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1754424467 985159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162898&oldid=162895 5* 03Corbin 5* (-169) 10/* Table of combinators */ Found most of the unsourced birds; they're in Smullyan, but not in the glossary.
< 1754424517 100241 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No worries. I re-read the relevant sections. Most of the names not in the glossary are part of the big list of compositing operators in Bravura's forest.
< 1754424541 552515 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what an omega or theta bird is though.
< 1754424749 643312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you mean Theta, that is listed in the appendex
> 1754425213 716570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162899&oldid=162797 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-258) 10/* Commands */ we really don't need more
> 1754425317 580477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162900&oldid=162898 5* 03Corbin 5* (+406) 10/* Properties */ Add two more important properties.
< 1754425366 708885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, curious. This must be a difference between our copies. Mine says that θ x = x (θ x); and calls it "sage bird". That's normally the combinator we call Y, though. So I'm not sure what the θ symbol should be.
> 1754425488 204312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162901&oldid=162897 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1479) 10
< 1754425653 834882 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes, that is the definition given in the appendix
> 1754425666 542448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162902&oldid=162892 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+21) 10/* Defining functions */
< 1754425679 778501 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the symbol for it is Theta, the fancy name is sage bird
< 1754425946 557660 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, okay. The definition given on the wiki is Y O, or Y (S I), which appears to have the same behavior as Y? Y (S I) x = S I (Y (S I)) x = I x (Y (S I) x) = x (Y (S I) x)
< 1754425976 116865 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't see it in the big list of Turing bird expressions. Perhaps this is the cost of not eating lunch.
< 1754426432 774258 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
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< 1754426591 480312 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754426832 878242 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754427177 645436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162903&oldid=162829 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10you can remove the question mark if you can call this as a subset
> 1754428459 382709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162904&oldid=162901 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2127) 10
< 1754429710 2794 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754430207 513396 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754431050 420364 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1754431782 993006 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754433184 760480 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User
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< 1754433726 760332 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User
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< 1754434077 759814 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754434509 922141 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754436036 393589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162905&oldid=162904 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+266) 10
< 1754437390 225134 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1754437539 441949 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1754438036 17685 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754438932 807072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162906&oldid=162905 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+861) 10
> 1754439113 712566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162907&oldid=162900 5* 03Corbin 5* (+367) 10Shuffle headers to focus on systems. Also fill in a couple missing rows in the table.
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< 1754442460 757445 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754443154 797572 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754443680 265213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162908&oldid=162907 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1899) 10Put SKI and BCKW on the same ground as other systems in the literature.
< 1754444148 661443 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754445134 968818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162909&oldid=162908 5* 03Corbin 5* (+696) 10/* Properties */ Finish listing properties. What they have in common is some sort of obstruction to completeness.
> 1754445485 131293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162910&oldid=162902 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-33) 10/* #df - Definitions of functions */
< 1754446234 950860 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754447646 691550 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1754447917 492281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162911&oldid=162909 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2819) 10Add a detailed section on completeness and related concepts.
> 1754449940 786606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162912&oldid=162872 5* 03Corbin 5* (+436) 10/* Minimal combinator bases */ Use theorems from [[combinatory logic]] to carefully circumscribe the possibility of a singleton basis.
< 1754450017 861996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Okay, I *think* I've patched up all of the spots where I was spouting wrongness. Certainly I think [[Iota]] is cleaned up already.
< 1754450074 47532 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that a single-combinator basis is still possible. But it can't be Iota, which has rank one and is linear in that sole argument. We gotta treat combinators and closed lambda terms as different things.
> 1754450155 471453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thomas 5* 10New user account
> 1754450535 544692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162913&oldid=162779 5* 03Thomas 5* (+213) 10Introducing my self.
> 1754451472 474393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hibiscus 5* 10New user account
< 1754451834 948692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I never did find a way to cite "The Combinator S", but thank you for linking it anyway. I enjoyed it even though it was not easy or fun.
< 1754452112 297806 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Well, "fun" is relative, right?
> 1754452153 135604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162914&oldid=162913 5* 03Hibiscus 5* (+172) 10
> 1754452749 403933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162915&oldid=162884 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-595) 10
> 1754452809 448953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LayerCake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162916&oldid=156185 5* 03HellsfargoMC 5* (+4) 10/* Fibonacci.lc: */ corrected programming mistake
> 1754456704 304662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User made14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162917 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+335) 10This is the 4th esolang experiment by me guys, will come back August 6th 2026 to make the page
> 1754456844 320704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162918 5* 03Thomas 5* (+5010) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GnomeLang |paradigms=Concurrent,Declarative,Imperative,Spatial |author=[[User:Thomas]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=theoretically infinite-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|T
> 1754456916 953380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162919&oldid=162918 5* 03Thomas 5* (-1) 10
> 1754457075 28706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162920&oldid=162919 5* 03Thomas 5* (+124) 10
> 1754457110 748536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162921&oldid=162920 5* 03Thomas 5* (-110) 10
> 1754457185 302411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162922 5* 03Thomas 5* (+56) 10Created page with "== Languages I take responsibility for == *[[GnomeLang]]"
> 1754457274 256438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162923&oldid=162921 5* 03Thomas 5* (+1) 10
> 1754457324 764709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162924&oldid=162923 5* 03Thomas 5* (+15) 10
> 1754457347 153970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162925&oldid=162924 5* 03Thomas 5* (+1) 10
> 1754457548 225512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162926&oldid=162745 5* 03Thomas 5* (+16) 10
> 1754457719 920114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162927&oldid=162925 5* 03Thomas 5* (+14) 10
> 1754457815 832451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162928&oldid=162927 5* 03Thomas 5* (-2) 10
> 1754457932 734422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162929&oldid=162922 5* 03Thomas 5* (+28) 10
> 1754458009 329218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162930&oldid=162928 5* 03Thomas 5* (+23) 10Replaced spawn with construct, and removed dwarf adjacent typos
> 1754458769 321676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162931&oldid=162929 5* 03Thomas 5* (-28) 10
< 1754462596 126517 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754462816 760474 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754462844 51465 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754462861 696310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162932&oldid=162930 5* 03Thomas 5* (+22) 10
> 1754462887 443615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162933&oldid=162932 5* 03Thomas 5* (-1) 10
< 1754462890 805961 :iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!~iiiiiiiii@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
< 1754462892 487230 :iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!~iiiiiiiii@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754462938 771508 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1754462981 752879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:.t/GravelContainer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162934 5* 03.t 5* (+108) 10Created page with "{{{2|Javascript!}}}"
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> 1754463394 104989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03!!!!! 5* 10New user account
> 1754463629 191486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162935&oldid=162914 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+133) 10
> 1754463656 499354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162936 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+15) 10Created page with "This is a test."
> 1754463660 33088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162937 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+15) 10Created page with "This is a test."
> 1754463980 208051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162938&oldid=162933 5* 03Thomas 5* (+67) 10
> 1754464153 16920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disan Count Pesudocode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162939&oldid=136970 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-20) 10/* Disan Count */
< 1754464248 19519 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754464469 103529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162940&oldid=162938 5* 03Thomas 5* (-3) 10
> 1754466291 197780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Textile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162941&oldid=134001 5* 03Dtp09 5* (-37) 10rephrased some explanations, changed "replacements" to "macros", added spaces after code example comments, other minor edits
> 1754466323 624403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162942&oldid=162940 5* 03Thomas 5* (+112) 10
> 1754466527 303238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dtp0914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162943&oldid=152178 5* 03Dtp09 5* (-59) 10
> 1754467804 469648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162944&oldid=162942 5* 03Thomas 5* (-221) 10
> 1754467823 959965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162945&oldid=162944 5* 03Thomas 5* (-100) 10
< 1754470619 281732 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754471664 996428 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754471946 183285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ESOPUNK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162946 5* 03L4.m2 5* (+212) 10Created page with "== Turing Complete == It should simulate Counter machine by Godel with if (x7 == 0) <=> MODI X 7 T ++x7 <=> MULI X 7 X --x7 <=> DIVI X 7 X Not sure if it act everything when introducing (infinite) IO, though"
> 1754472452 5082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRPE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162947&oldid=161336 5* 03Bil-joodusstudios 5* (+0) 10The source code for the interpreter I made was created in 2022 and so were the first programs and thus the date 2023 was inaccurate
< 1754472787 940683 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754472937 866369 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1754476757 763079 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754477693 287173 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754478719 337308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754478732 518799 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754478878 793614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones ← also «flip id» – that's one of the few that's important enough that I special-cased it in my combinator evaluator
< 1754478902 869746 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :according to the list on the wiki, it's called "thrush"
< 1754478916 476609 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I don't really like using bird names, it's just confusing
< 1754479062 446251 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754479290 180790 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
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< 1754479627 977327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, this reminds me: instead of BCKW you can use BTKW, C is B (T T) (B B (B (T B) (B B T)))
< 1754479652 954250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although this is the sort of trick that somewhat reminds me of Underload without ~
< 1754479728 389409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked at this, I suspected that this would be TC even without K (via the bit-bucked method), although I didn't come up with a workable proof
< 1754479781 580546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now it crosses my mind that ~ and ! are the two combinators you can simple-translate out of Underload
< 1754479805 58214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously they aren't *exact* matches for C and K but there are nonetheless obvious similarities
< 1754479901 571623 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754479931 833832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and the obvious name for this basis is "BTW"
< 1754479956 920817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* bit-bucket method
< 1754480264 896465 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754480696 156740 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal JOIN #esolangs Vorpal :Vorpal
< 1754480787 732808 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wb Vorpal
< 1754480813 200021 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi, according to client logs I did briefly visit here in 2023
< 1754480878 384193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays we chat somewhat asynchronously via the logs, usually – we've been talking about combinators over the past few days
< 1754480918 73361 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that much into esolangs these days, don't have much time for it.
< 1754480961 832653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough – I've been less into it than I used to be, I think
< 1754480988 425945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been working more on practical languages, which is a lot more difficult to produce results with quickly
< 1754480995 536304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe more useful when you do
< 1754481026 528591 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, doing things that are useful and feel like they are worth your time, it gets more important the older you get I think
< 1754481049 155458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, the esolangs results feel more useful sometimes
< 1754481061 596507 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…but a smaller audience
< 1754481147 746362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I enjoyed golfing down the TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering – after a while it turned into working out what could easily be constructed and then trying to prove it TC
< 1754481254 422173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, I guess the way that I use Rust is on the verge of turning it into an esolang – lots of trying to prove things with the type system)
< 1754481338 770147 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, while I build useful cli programs mostly
< 1754481349 786285 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and am experimenting with rust on a ESP32
< 1754481409 755960 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, I'm getting the sort of issues that normal rust protects against. I'm trying to do DMA and getting hardware exceptions
< 1754481418 872462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh
< 1754481440 621194 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to do a sound visualiser (with a I2S microphone)
< 1754481465 826277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've programmed both microcontrollers and DSPs in the past, but it was a long time ago now
< 1754481498 775474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the microcontrollers had around 100 bytes of RAM (+ a few kilobytes of nonwritable program memory)
< 1754481527 373218 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :The rust abstractions are interesting, using lots of typestate patterns and ownership for peripherals
< 1754481531 725882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, you could write it in hardware, just not in software
< 1754481585 719401 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ESP32 dev board I use has like ~500 kB usable SRAM, 4 MB flash and 8 MB external DRAM
< 1754481595 284519 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :240 MHz, dual core
< 1754481597 100053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like Rust doesn't do typestate properly at the moment (thus the interest in strong updates), but it should work if you're managing global variables (which hardware resources effectively are)
< 1754481635 632108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether microcontrollers are more powerful nowadays; my guess is "more powerful microcontrollers exist but the very small ones still exist because they're cheap and many products don't need much power"
< 1754481644 939182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computational power, that is, not electrical power
< 1754481654 724181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess the two may be correlated!
< 1754481677 216523 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah the ESP32 is on the upper end for sure. But most micros used for new projects are 32-bit these days. Mostly ARM and RISCV
< 1754481690 897988 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I doubt people do *new* projects on AVR for example
< 1754481839 353977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I stopped working on this before AVR became popular
< 1754481865 11550 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I don't even know what came before that. Old Intel and Motorola parts iirc?
< 1754481869 198870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was nice being so close to the hardware
< 1754481879 617215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could just write to memory to change the voltage on pins
< 1754481887 253550 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the Microchip PIC series, right
< 1754481892 556213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I was using PICs
< 1754481936 670860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they were (are?) basically a transport-triggered architecture for all the hardware features and for memory addressing, but had arithmetic instructions (including RMW) in addition to just mov
< 1754481943 920865 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well yeah, hardware peripherals are usually memory mapped. Though some architectures have a separate IO bus (including x86, but that is only used for ISA, anything more modern is memory mapped instead)
< 1754482098 953649 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I have to say, I have moved towards systems/low level programming in general. Not that interested in abstract language design. For me, the most important question in language design: how is this useful for the practitioner?
< 1754482122 384785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my esolangs have tended towards useful too – although primarily in terms of being useful for proving things with
< 1754482141 820359 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :you went into academia, right?
< 1754482146 143834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model is probably my biggest esolang breakthrough since Underload (or maybe more so, because other people would have discovered Underload if I hadn't)
< 1754482164 92591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got a PhD, did a postdoc, then covid happened and I was ill for a few years
< 1754482171 949398 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ouch
< 1754482193 825820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I still go through frequent periods of not being able to concentrate on anything, which is making it difficult to get a job
< 1754482281 312680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :employers probably don't want employees who frequently and randomly do nothing for a 3-4 weeks at a time (it is improving, though – a couple of years ago it was measured in months rather than weeks)
< 1754482307 419092 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :still I think that shows the point really. "The Waterfall Model" looks nice, but I don't see how it is applicable to solving "real world problems" (however you define that). That doesn't mean it isn't valuable as research, but it doesn't really interest me much. It is the difference between pure and applied mathematics. I found out that I'm *way* over on the applied side.
< 1754482326 896652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, these aren't real-world problems but mathematical problems
< 1754482336 97021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it cut down the time for the typical TCness proof from a few days to a few mintues
< 1754482351 887643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and started to make some of the more difficult TCness proofs viable
< 1754482438 473616 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most important theorem for me out of TCness and such has been Rice's theorem. Because it lets me say "this problem is one that cannot actually be solved (or at least not without false positives / negatives)". That result is in a sense a very applied one.
< 1754482463 513010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like Turing tarpits tend to be fundamentally either queue-based or counter-based; tag systems handle the queue-based languages, MInsky machines and TWM handle the counter-based languages depending on whether their problems are with data storage or control flow
< 1754482488 923095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, we know that there are problems about programming that we can't have general solutions to
< 1754482493 677139 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did do a esolang thing a few years ago, as a project to learn rust: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/brainoxide (ignore recent updates, it is just dependabot)
< 1754482542 904055 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :as it was my first rust thing, the code is for sure non-idomatic. Also there are several optimisations that aren't implemented because I got the internal graph representation wrong.
< 1754482553 257788 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But the goal was learning rust, so who cares)
< 1754482590 207387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to write an SSA optimiser for counter machines ages ago, but got lost – the internal representation was wrong I think
< 1754482598 260097 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I used it to experiment with github actions before applying those things on more important projects)
< 1754482609 695403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it should have been possible to adapt it to BF to some extent
< 1754482635 272782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult
< 1754482645 333416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try to avoid those as much as possible nowadays
< 1754482659 193548 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that an optimising BF compiler is actually more of a *decompiler*. Because you are trying to recover higher level structure out of a incredibly low level thing.
< 1754482661 378755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my latest big Rust project has involved reimplementing references
< 1754482681 917095 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :[14:17] also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult <-- that has not been my experience at all. Not in rust at least.
< 1754482685 647696 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well
< 1754482712 912652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the dependency bumps probably aren't required for it to continue working
< 1754482749 834207 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed, it also has a test suite, and fuzz testing
< 1754482753 15482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it's surprising how often a crater run turns up "this obviously useless and wrong construct is used in an old version of some really widely used library"
< 1754482780 940398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that Rust projects bitrot faster than you would expect if you don't keep the dependencies up to date
< 1754482806 148125 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, yeah okay
< 1754482855 562855 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/VorpalBlade/chezmoi_modify_manager https://github.com/VorpalBlade/keyboard-backlightd and https://github.com/VorpalBlade/filkoll https://github.com/VorpalBlade/paketkoll are *useful* things I have written in rust. It is an amazing language for these sort of tools.
< 1754482918 657790 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least three of them I have gotten issue reports from other people, so some people are at least using them
< 1754482924 116895 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or tried to use them)
< 1754482937 515462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess whether I write useful things in Rust depends on whether you consider esolang interpreters useful :-D
< 1754482950 786973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I am working on larger useful projects too – it just takes a lot longer, especially with all the time not working)
< 1754483021 873485 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I especially like what I did in filkoll, with zero-copy deserialisation and mmap.
< 1754483050 282122 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I even wrote a blog post about it, which might be of interest if you are into squeezing every bit of performance from a program: https://vorpal.se/posts/2025/mar/25/filkoll-the-fastest-command-not-found-handler/
< 1754483056 52289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… IIRC mmap is very hard to use safely in Rust
< 1754483062 616436 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the blog goes into that
< 1754483067 255568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if you have any reference to any byte in the file, and someone changes the file…
< 1754483074 186003 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
< 1754483079 443288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you using the "array of UnsafeCell" method?
< 1754483085 284620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, slice
< 1754483086 484255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :read the blog :D
< 1754483107 427574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will do at some point, but it takes a while
< 1754483120 405835 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm ensuring that the file isn't changed. I define what my thread model is.
< 1754483125 124791 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :threat*
< 1754483137 446083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been wondering about trying to use Linux leases to make mmap safe with Rust, but it's very hard to define because the safety becomes based on real-world time
< 1754483239 964702 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so the TLDR is that the file is written in one go by a cron job / systemd timer. So I do the temp file and move into place to atomically replace the file trick. And since this is done by root, and the reading phase of the program is normally run by not root, I consider root trusted. If you have malicious software writing those files you have way bigger issues.
< 1754483262 621903 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thus, mmap is safe.
< 1754483282 654516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a lease allows you to get a definitive answer to "will this file change in the next 10 seconds?", which Linux implements via delaying writes by 10 seconds while there is an active lease)
< 1754483303 758447 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although, you're supposed to drop the lease if the kernel tells you that someone wants to write)
< 1754483315 811210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: right – you're considering the file to be an extension of the program
< 1754483339 493279 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use the rkyv crate for actual zero-copy deserialisation of that data, and it too has safety requirements, about matching data structures being used. So I hash all of that and put it in a header, and if the hash doesn't match I don't load the file but print an error about regenerating the files
< 1754483339 723668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that isn't a general solution, but it works here
< 1754483374 44139 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also hash Cargo.lock into that)
< 1754483401 475764 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it is a cache file effectively, so for that case it works.
< 1754483424 352778 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to do mmap IPC or something like that, I agree: you have way more complex problems to deal with
< 1754483444 705222 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and keeping it all as raw pointers and doing volatile isn't attractive either
< 1754483482 374705 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh and I have also gotten into 3D printing and figuring out way to use as little plastic as possible while doing so.
< 1754483491 753069 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my most recent blog post is on that)
< 1754483508 179392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In particular it wouldn’t be safe to *not* do UTF-8 validation: It is possible to mix up handles from different interners." ← this is a major hole in Rust and the one that I'm currently spending most effort on trying to fix
< 1754483525 812776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically, the "mix up handles from different interners" part of it
< 1754483564 432858 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, branded lifetimes (ghost cell etc) could solve that, but awkwardly. But it absolutely doesn't work across serialisation and deserialisation.
< 1754483566 452017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a blog post about it last year: http://ais523.me.uk/blog/scoped-generics.html
< 1754483567 707331 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is my use case
< 1754483599 297239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's mostly about making brands a) easier to use and b) able to transmit data across trait boundaries, even if the traits don't know about the data
< 1754483631 826985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, but I bet whatever solution you think of won't apply across serialisation and deserialisation, especially with rkyv which has a derive macro that generates separate types for deserialization that uses relative pointers
< 1754483646 932543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's compatible with serialisation (you make the deserialisation produce the appropriate brand at the same time as it reads the data), but it may not be compatible with existing deserialisation libraries
< 1754483649 468387 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that is the only way to make it *zero copy*
< 1754483651 196796 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1754483707 648404 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: deserialisation can't really do anything if you want it to be zero-copy. It has to be the equivalent of a std::mem::transmute basically.
< 1754483712 265075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing about brands is that they're ZSTs, so you can add them to existing data structures in a zero-copy way
< 1754483723 60215 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm ok
< 1754483724 175585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can transmute () into a ZST
< 1754483747 999916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difficult part is proving that you have the right one, but if you're using unsafe code that doesn't matter
< 1754483775 811477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, it's still difficult but it doesn't matter *to Rust*, just when you're writing the code
< 1754483795 192506 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could use unsafe code to skip the UTF-8 validation. It could be *sound* if I use it right. It just wouldn't be *safe*
< 1754483842 532059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – so the approach would be "having this brand on offset X means that data structure Y has valid UTF-8 starting from offset X"
< 1754483867 862052 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :sounds about right, yes
< 1754483875 392350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and as long as you serialise the list of offsets and the string dump, you can deserialise into some thing with the same branding structure, as long as you trust the bytes on disk
< 1754483880 761020 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754483886 925241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* as long as you serialise them together
< 1754483898 142967 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I saw a blog the other day about lifetime brands in rust, I need to get around to reading it)
< 1754483911 647543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't read it yet, although I did write about it in my own blog post
< 1754483918 197020 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but I was on a road trip for the past week, didn't have time)
< 1754483928 764926 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1mhkvrs/the_generativity_pattern_in_rust/
< 1754483933 700869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't consider it a priority for reading because I thought I knew about the topic already, but maybe I should in case it says something I don't know
< 1754483938 571494 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754483943 105656 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :haven't had time to read the associated blog yet
< 1754483975 487180 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just knows the basics of it and filed it as "oh, that is neat, I don't have any immediate uses for this"
< 1754484044 742902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I think my opinion on "unsafe" is "I will use this if I have to, but I would prefer if I can get whatever I'm doing into the standard library so that I don't have to"
< 1754484046 14461 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but apparently there is more ways to do it than the scoped closure given an invariant lifetime
< 1754484052 974880 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I should probably read it
< 1754484110 90589 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: for sure. The question of motivation for unsafe becomes tricky when it becomes a performance question. E.g. I can save x% of the total runtime of my tool if I use unsafe. Is it worth it?
< 1754484137 700380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I work backwards – start with the theoretical performance limit and then see what the obstacles to reaching it are
< 1754484186 931663 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I write code that functions first, and then see where the bottlenecks are, and try to optimise it. I found perf, bpf etc to be surprisingly fun and enjoyable.
< 1754484188 674491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's how I came up with the 55GiB/s fizzbuzz
< 1754484210 393098 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, I remember that, yes
< 1754484235 996757 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did read the code, well part of it, I think I got lost somewhere around how the custom bytecode VM supposedly worked.
< 1754484239 281524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done the whole "looking for bottlenecks" thing but it's annoying
< 1754484303 719235 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found it enjoyable. And as a bonus you can be solving a practical problem a customer is having right now. That feels nice.
< 1754484333 205245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came up with a good way to explain the VM: you can think of FizzBuzz as a sequence of instructions that output one byte each (at least if you know the number of digits in the numbers you're printing), that fact isn't useful if you just compile the instructions, but if you *interpret* the instructions you then have a SIMD situation (because it's the same interpreter for every instruction) and so you can vectorise
< 1754484357 210971 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Did something like that just before the vacation. The customer was running the program on a way less powerful machine than we used. So what we saw as 12-20% CPU load, they saw as 100%+ CPU load.
< 1754484403 668978 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Managed to cut the CPU usage in more than half there, plus I learned some new tools (tracy in particular, just sampling profiling wasn't enough).
< 1754484475 756402 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I left my colleagues with a list of things they should do to optimise it further (in other parts of the system)
< 1754484529 599626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm out of practice with actual practical programming – I am mostly trying to fix the theory and hoping it leads to improvements in the practice later on
< 1754484575 453383 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my last attempt to write a practical program didn't work out very well
< 1754484603 445605 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really can't find any energy or motivation for writing something that *doesn't* solve a practical problem any more.
< 1754484626 432544 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got burnout a few years ago, and in general even after that I have less energy than I used to
< 1754484669 292057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I spent ages trying to work out whether the "take the dot product of your key and the input" was a valid randomized hash function – eventually I figured out that it is only good if your aim is to have 0 collisions, because an attacker can increase the chance of a large multi-collision to unacceptably large values even though they can't influence the chance of there being any collisions at all)
< 1754484742 344984 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, hash functions is a bit of a problem. For most software I write, I would prefer a faster but non-DOS resitant hash for things like hashmaps
< 1754484743 300365 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the way I see it is, I could either try to solve one practical problem and get frustrated with the tools I'm working with, or I could try to make a million practical problems all a little easier to solve
< 1754484758 214564 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I don't have untrusted input in my threat model. They are cli programs!
< 1754484780 806282 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I wish is for rust / cargo to get the build-std support in proper shape
< 1754484790 260969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally have untrusted input in my threat model for CLI programs, but the threat is usually "the user accidentally renames or edits a file while the CLI is working on it"
< 1754484802 334943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :-Z build-std is seriously being worked on, as far as I can tell
< 1754484811 138497 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we could have std feature flags for things like DOS resistant hash functions, or normal vs priority inheritance mutxes
< 1754484815 407171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although I guess it wouldn't be -Z any more once it's been finishd
< 1754484816 323479 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :mutices?
< 1754484842 387324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the normal plural is "mutexes", but as with any word ending in x it is likely to be pluralised in some interesting ways
< 1754484861 814522 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :man, let me tell you, hard real time Linux (which I do for my day job) doesn't get the love it deserve further up the stack in programming languages
< 1754484882 393561 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :English spelling is... interesting
< 1754484885 734226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this case "ex" is an abbreviation for "exclusino" so I think it pluralises using the same basic ruleset that "exclusion" uses
< 1754484917 586953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* for "exclusion"
< 1754484928 786253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hard realtime is one of those things where you really want the programming language to help
< 1754484937 179820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some sort of resource system, perhaps
< 1754484963 519306 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, from a mathematical point of view, hard realtime is easier to work with than non-hard-realtime concurrency
< 1754484977 987389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did some work on that in my PhD)
< 1754484992 92648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't have to worry about all the possible orderings of events if you know exactly how much time everything is taking
< 1754484992 934394 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :both C++ and Rust std mutexes doesn't do Priority Inheritance (PI). Which is a thing you really want. The underlying pthread mutex and/or futex does support it optionally. But you need to use/enable that variant.
< 1754485005 234346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I get a suspicion that modern OSes and programs aren't quite *that* hard realtime)
< 1754485017 346989 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is only true for single core
< 1754485049 334815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, mathematically you can assume the cores run lockstep, but that would need a processor with very predictable timings
< 1754485052 565808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :as soon as you do hard RT on multicore (and don't pin *everything*) the exact solutions fall apart
< 1754485075 101422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cluster of 6502s would be able to do it just fine (but the performance would be terrible)
< 1754485112 290559 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and let me tell you: no one in industry is actually doing the academic mathematical approaches to hard realtime. I forget what those diagrams with dots moving around were even called.
< 1754485113 467017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what the correct term for "we have hard time limits but our processor doesn't do things in a predictable time" is – it's somewhere between hard and soft realtime
< 1754485129 884129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: oh, I'm not at all surprised, at least for software approaches
< 1754485134 993201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I bet the people synthesising hardware are doing it though
< 1754485145 755832 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this might not be true in things like flight control software, which has more stringent requirements)
< 1754485245 688564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the trickiest situations is "things that give an unpredictable performance improvement"
< 1754485249 684130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like branch predictors and L1 caches
< 1754485249 988472 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thankfully, the things I work on (while safety critical in that humans could be in danger) are slow and are safe if they just stop. So the solution is "we have emergency stop buttons everywhere, which cut the actuations electrically)
< 1754485278 823736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the program clearly works better with them involved – but it almost feels like, for hard realtime, you might not be able to rely on them helping at all
< 1754485348 728413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can rely on the OS to not pre-empt you too much, and just hope that the cache and branch predictor act sensibly in that case
< 1754485361 72898 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it depends on your timing requirements. Hard realtime is about predictability. If your requirements is on the order of tens of ms, realtime linux is fine.
< 1754485397 464728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I would be worrying about pathological cases like "all the pointers in the program were allocated with the same values in the middle bits, causing the cache performance to massively degrade"
< 1754485412 730119 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you need µs to single digit ms, you should consider a microcontroller. If you need ns you should look at FPGAs or digital electronics. If you need less than that look at analog electronics
< 1754485446 455271 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a very rough categorisation, but it is pretty accurate I feel.
< 1754485546 208901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the run-up to my PhD, I was working on algorithms designed for use with clockless digital electronics, i.e. they run as fast as the wires transmit information (the limiting factor there is the delay on your pulse reshapers making your pulses have nice square edges)
< 1754485556 131393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although we didn't actually implement it on a platform like that, we used a clock for testing
< 1754485556 718389 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of what I do is on the 10s of ms range. So realtime Linux works fine. And we push the shorter time range things to connected microcontrollers (that do the actual electical IO)
< 1754485621 673446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – I guess my concern is more about what could happen in theory than anything
< 1754485638 936205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :worst-case performance is often an awful lot worse than average-case performance
< 1754485639 518560 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have heard of clockless designs, but I don't really know anything about them. I have a vague memory of someone building a clockless (MIPS?) CPU ages ago as a research projects.
< 1754485663 514407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if we happen to hit the miniscule chance that all our data hashes to the same value and the hash table becomes quadratic, that sort of thing
> 1754485710 486007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162948&oldid=162906 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+119) 10
< 1754485735 648408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia makes a distinction between hard real-time (where a deadline miss is completely unacceptable) and firm real-time (where it's just really bad and you want to minimize the probability, but where if the probability is low enough you'd prefer to pay the cost of very rare deadline misses rather than the cost of coding to worst-case rather than average-case)
< 1754485802 469070 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: indeed. But the things we control are all *big* hydraulics. And the inertia in that dwarfs anything else in the system. Now, if you were controlling an agile robot (Boston dynamics sort of thing) that would be a different matter, you would still have a linux system doing the high level planning, but actual PID loops wound be done in microcontrollers. And we do some of that too. Just less of it than most.
< 1754485852 673285 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I would put things like live sound processing into "firm real-time". You don't want an audio glitch during your rock concert. But no one will die from it.
< 1754485855 83181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that if you have a safe default action (e.g. stopping) you can use that as an automatic reaction to an imminent deadline miss
< 1754485865 869399 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1754485870 711985 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal's presence reminded me that fungot had probably been offline for, like, months at this point.
< 1754485871 61683 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the debugger?' navigate stack frames with c-p/ c-n.
< 1754485881 747167 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hi
< 1754485886 425406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, an Emacs controls debugger
< 1754485901 648790 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure it's just an Emacs frontend to GDB or something.
< 1754485904 396906 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I guess I have pictures from my road trip? I haven't uploaded anything. I don't even know where I would upload things these days
< 1754485952 458677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I consider audio to be soft real-time, the consequences of glitches are minor by comparison with what they could be in other cases
< 1754485955 28654 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :spent a week sleeping in my car or in a tent while going all over southern Sweden
< 1754485977 29369 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah I didn't realise they had three categories on wikipedia
< 1754485979 161089 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I self-host an instance of https://piwigo.org/ because (a subset of) our relatives generally seem to be interested in what's up, and that's an easy way to make it so. It's not great.
< 1754486008 804332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firm realtime is more "glitches cost us a serious amount of money, but if the probability is low enough that's still cheaper than the cost of coding to the worst case"
> 1754486013 801290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dotcomma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162949&oldid=140481 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+105) 10
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< 1754486036 685947 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but in safety critical design there are different levels depending on how bad the consequences could be. Which is sort of separate from the whole realtime vs not. Two different axes I feel like.
< 1754486051 884964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and hard realtime is for when that tradeoff *Isn't* worth it, e.g. pacemakers and the like
< 1754486054 97424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like: the ABS breaks failing is clearly worse than the engine control unit failing.
< 1754486077 975387 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that is generally reflected in what level of requirements you need to adhere to
< 1754486079 916333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been a few cases where the wires controlling aeroplane engines have failed
< 1754486090 496202 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :their failsafe state is to keep running continuously, which makes sense when you think about it
< 1754486108 663645 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meaning that after the plane landed they had to wait for it to run out of fuel
< 1754486109 418706 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: even in a plane you have the same thing: auto pilot failing is not as bad as the fly by wire controls failing
< 1754486124 893379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
> 1754486124 930341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162951&oldid=162910 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+368) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486149 563558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162952&oldid=162951 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+12) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486211 739258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162953&oldid=162952 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+59) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486225 620965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162954&oldid=162953 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
< 1754486226 217192 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Airbus's fly by wire system actually has three different states with different implementation complexity
< 1754486232 793082 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :each industry has it's own standards for this, and I have never worked in flight. But as I understand it from what I have heard and read, they have levels A-D where A means "if this fails everyone dies", C is like "some people might get injured" and D is like "loss of monetary value I guess" (approximately, I don't remember the actual exact definitions)
< 1754486251 184886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if something goes wrong (e.g. sensor malfunction) they will switch to a simpler implementation to maximise the chance that the controls are still usable to control the plane
< 1754486282 716405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is interesting because it's the different safety standards thing, but within a single program
< 1754486303 732201 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thanks for that link. I was thinking about immich personally
< 1754486323 75653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having some control authority is more important than having the controls react in a largely controllable way, which is more important than the protections against accidental dangerous inputs from the pilots
< 1754486330 228608 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: do you know if that piwigo has support for viewing panorams other than layed out flat?
< 1754486444 969192 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yep. I believe the car industry have similar things. And since I work on (mobile, albeit very slowly) industrial equipment we have our own standards for safety that we need to adhere to. Though they are considerably less stringent than in flight.
< 1754486483 77301 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh god it is php :(
< 1754486484 563533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stringent standards don't always end up improving safety – the more difficult the standard is to follow, the more likely someone will violate it
< 1754486501 536881 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: Not built-in, I don't think, but there were some plugins. I tried one, it sort of worked, but then gave up on it. I haven't done many stitched-up panoramas lately.
< 1754486505 772970 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did say it's not great.
< 1754486506 288307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so more stringent standards likely also need more stringent enforcement, which often nobody is willing to pay for
< 1754486528 610852 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh I missed that part, it was line wrapped to the next line
< 1754486596 401608 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I originally ran something called "gallery2", but it went defunct, and Piwigo is what I found to migrate to.
< 1754486605 884402 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the open source db server world is terrible. Postgres is a pain to upgrade (you need to export and re-import all your data, wtf). Mysql/mariadb is well... it was a joke, I don't know if it still is actually.
< 1754486635 896902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I run postgres on my server, it is more of an upgrade pain than anything else there, although still manageable
< 1754486687 182433 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could argue that if exporting and re-importing is a pain, that's just a sign your data recovery solution is sub-par.
< 1754486714 877579 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I do have automated backups, on the file level. I like databases that are compatible with that. Such as SQLite
< 1754486740 902480 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The wiki runs on MariaDB, because (at least at the time) I got the impression that while MediaWiki *could* run on postgres, it really was "natively" more MySQL-ish.
< 1754486743 295725 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I like software that will auto-upgrade their schema when I upgrade the podman container.
< 1754486779 719184 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't want a multi-step upgrade process)
< 1754486794 769202 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found https://github.com/meichthys/foss_photo_libraries/tree/main a while ago, seemed like a good comparison.
< 1754486880 82439 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've also somewhat recently set up MariaDB's replication thing, so instead of just weekly backups, there's a copy of the wiki that's just in the order of seconds out of date. (Well, for everything that's in the database. Some file uploads younger than a week might get lost.)
< 1754486944 670027 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only have one piece of software using postgres these days: miniflux (RSS reader). Everything else uses sqlite for the most part.
< 1754486997 260577 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the key thing is, I can take a btrfs snapshot and backup that.
< 1754487438 547433 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754488642 747762 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1754489995 612109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" [rust] and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well" => how much is this only because the built-in & and &mut reference types get special treatment for the orphan impl rule. As in `impl C for T` is allowed only if either the trait C or the top level type constructor of the implementing type T
< 1754489996 112432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is defined in the same crate, but if the implementing type is &B or &mut B then it's enough for the top-level type constructor of B to be defined in the same crate.
< 1754490028 493810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet
< 1754490034 776480 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1754490065 28848 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is more that functions return normal Rust references and you can't turn those into your own sorts of references (and the other problem is that nothing other than &mut can be reborrowed correctly)
< 1754490080 837051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, for mutable references, it isn't a problem for shared references, even custom ones
< 1754490179 145298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate
> 1754490576 921854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162955 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+429) 10A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground
< 1754490768 747894 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1754491094 119694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162956&oldid=162955 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+286) 10/* Uninme Lang */
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< 1754492851 470720 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re bird sociology, a problem in our discussion here is that "bird name" means something like three different things that have subtle semantic differences, and I don't know how best to call each one. I'll have to re-read the bird book to make sure I understand exactly how this works.
< 1754492932 818499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1754493036 942297 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing you may call "bird name" is for our purposes effectively synonymous with "bird". To evaluate a bird application xy, you have to say this kind of name of the bird y to the bird x, and bird x replies with the name of xy. Bird sociologists (probably each of the ones that we meet in the book, but at least one definitely) can translate between
< 1754493037 442630 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :bird name and bird both ways: if he sees a bird he will know what its name is, and if he learns the name of a bird (because a bird says it as a reply to the application) then there is a bird with that name in the forest and the bird sociologist can always find one (though it may take a long time).
< 1754493082 27656 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We never find out the name in this sense of any bird in the book, and the narrator might not even know how to represent them in writing.
< 1754493235 560953 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second thing that you may call "bird name" are the descriptions like "kestrel", "mockingbird", "identity bird" etc. These are defined by some property, usually some equation of two bird expressions with bird application, in some universal quantifiers over bird-valued variables.
< 1754493280 5484 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The third is the capital letters like K and S that are used to name a bird with such a property in equations written in short form.
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> 1754493539 936452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SUB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162957&oldid=88041 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-7) 10/* Examples */
< 1754493578 185420 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I understand correctly, there are at least three difficulties here. One is that the second kind of bird name isn't unique, there could be multiple birds with different names that are kestrels or whatever S is called. This can happen even for identity birds, even though their equation is so constraining that any two identity birds must give the
< 1754493578 686077 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same answer if you ask them the same question. Note that most properties aren't so constraining, you could have two different K combinators K_1 and K_2 such that for some x, K_1 x != K_2 x. all they have to satisfy is that for every x and y, K_1 x y = K_2 x y = x. And some named properties are even more free than that.
< 1754493851 36221 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754493869 840191 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second problem is that it's possible that two birds are the same combinator, they always give the same answer for any question, but not only they have different names, but some non-combinator birds can distinguish between them, even though this would be impossible in the pure lambda calculus bird. You could have two identity birds I_♀︎ and
< 1754493870 339978 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I_♂︎, then for every bird x, I_♀︎ x = I_♂︎ x = x. But there could be a sexer bird s such that s I_♀︎ = K but s I_♂︎ = K I.
< 1754493916 416413 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or two birds could differ not just by their name but in other properties that are mentioned in a few chapters of a bird books, like on which days they sing.
< 1754493940 908444 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Singing is unrelated to the replies they give to an application, to be clear.)
< 1754494148 204325 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the third problem, and I think this is the only one that the book directly brings up, is that some birds might not be combinators not just because they examine birds in other ways than what they compute, but because they allow you to compute something that a Turing-machine can't. There could be a bird h that solves the halting problem of Turing
< 1754494148 705094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :machines (not of all birds, that would be impossible because of diagonalization), eg. for any encoded Turing-machine x, h x = K if x halts, h x = KI if x does not halt. Around the last chapter the bird sociologist said that there's a rumor that such a powerful bird exists in a faraway forest, but he does not know if that rumor is true.
< 1754494277 852782 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, Vorpal: the discussion about different degrees of realtime is interesting, I should try to say a few things about it later, in relation to my current job. I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those.
< 1754494640 17517 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: wib_jonas
< 1754494875 874995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754495230 29001 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754496728 999625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162958&oldid=162945 5* 03Thomas 5* (+108) 10
> 1754496755 283213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162959&oldid=162958 5* 03Thomas 5* (+9) 10
> 1754496794 129650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162960&oldid=162959 5* 03Thomas 5* (-2) 10
> 1754497528 932779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162961&oldid=157921 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+795) 10
> 1754498096 374636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162962&oldid=162961 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1) 10
> 1754498971 543450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162963 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+418) 10Created page with "MIG or Mission: Impossible graphs in a language that runs solely on a graph Here's the definition: In MIG each line consists of a stack of values x_1,x_2,...,x_n. When the line is run put the first value at the bottom of the stack then go to the corresponding
> 1754499030 485233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162964&oldid=162963 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+64) 10
> 1754499050 53040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162965&oldid=162964 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+27) 10
> 1754499141 701313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162966&oldid=162965 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+57) 10
< 1754499233 965328 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: "I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those." <-- depending on how, you need to be careful so the realtime program doesn't end up waiting on the non-realtime program causing a priority inversion.
< 1754499281 203743 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs : wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet <-- I would expect the lack of automatic reborrowing of User defined &mut would be the killer
< 1754499309 461049 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs : but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate <-- it would be a problem for downstream traits using your reference though
> 1754499424 644559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162967&oldid=162966 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+110) 10
< 1754499450 241963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: say I have a combinator ! defined as ! a b c d = (a a) b (c d)
< 1754499511 816317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then, (! ! j) c d = (! ! j) (c d), so in a sense (! ! j) is the identity combinator, regardless of j
< 1754499537 293716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that when looking for small combinator bases, we need to define whether or not this sort of thing stlil counts as universal (suppose there was no way to produce an identity combinator otherwise)
< 1754499572 907759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that if it doesn't, there's no way to get a universal size 1 basis – if it does, though, it becomes harder to work out the implications
> 1754499605 963397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162968&oldid=162967 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+92) 10
< 1754499682 511056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it does, though, this trick lets you define K despite having no cancellative combinators
> 1754499708 78286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162969&oldid=162968 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+51) 10
> 1754499716 991138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162970&oldid=162950 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+120) 10
< 1754499985 2347 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is quite interesting: sudo bpftrace -e 'tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execve,tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execveat { printf("%lld s: %s %s\n", nsecs(boot) / (1000 * 1000 * 1000), comm, str(args.filename)); }'
< 1754500004 148257 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it prints the time (since boot) and the command name, for all exec calls
< 1754500032 213218 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it prints the parent and child names
< 1754500052 459289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can see what programs are running, for some definition of "run"
< 1754500053 662042 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found some silly python process that was using system() when it shouldn't that way for example
< 1754500065 879234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are becoming running, rather than are currently running
< 1754500080 978200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also, just have that running and launch a new shell, it is very interesting to see how much crap my zshrc apparently contains.
< 1754500125 78425 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it captures ephermal processes that you wouldn't notice otherwise
< 1754500213 707433 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :also apparently when I launch a root shell it runs a whole bunch of more things than when I launch a normal shell. That is very odd, and I should look into that.
< 1754500292 860604 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Good thoughts. The book does emphasize this somewhat, that e.g. a starling is *any* bird S which satisfies S x y z = x z (y z); and birds are characterized by properties rather than species.
< 1754500327 580289 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The book does also have a notion of proper and improper combinators, as well as "order"; the order of a proper combinator is its rank. The idea of improper combinators is to characterize e.g. C K or K I.
< 1754500348 347904 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time.
< 1754500368 562680 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is quite amazing the silly things you can find with something as simple as that
< 1754500419 2156 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, we can use rank to tell. I has rank one, so anything equivalent to it also must have rank one. But (! ! j) has rank two, so it's clearly something different.
< 1754500461 44452 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, why the hell does launching a root shell run flatpak?
< 1754500468 972138 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754500474 538916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: OK, by that definition, I think a universal basis of size 1 is impossible, because if it's applicative I think that implies it can't implement a rank 1 identity function, and it's hard to see how it could be universal without being applicative
< 1754500515 133815 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Makes sense. That's roughly where I am, too. I won't say that some sort of super-S is impossible, but it does seem like it has to do a *lot* of different things.
< 1754500552 172631 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This would be simpler if there were a super-strict dividing line between affine and duplicative combinators, but there's no reason that a duplicative combinator couldn't have an affine effect after it's been partially applied.
< 1754500586 85801 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your ! example does a good job of showing that. After the first partial application, the rest of the combinator is affine; linear, even.
< 1754500599 938796 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ZYP: points -24.90, score 5.45, rank 47/47
< 1754500632 439342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the "no rank 1 identity function" is because the leftmost application can't have a variable on the left without evaluating the variable (which the identity function doesn't do), and can't produce the identity function with a variable on the right unless it has the identity function on the left)
< 1754500700 431688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then by induction you can show that you can't produce the identity function unless you had one to start with
< 1754500768 223788 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :flatpak: aha: /etc/profile.d/flatpak.sh
> 1754500877 134868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162971&oldid=162960 5* 03Thomas 5* (+40) 10
< 1754500901 57221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. I didn't get around to actually writing it in the [[combinatory logic]] page, but a complete basis needs some way of bootstrapping application, and curiously neither K nor I have that applicative property.
< 1754500925 999468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, it needs some way to bootstrap application and some way to duplicate data
< 1754500941 515304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those logically go in the same combinator, because duplicating data will involve an application somewhere
< 1754500991 757779 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. M will do just as well as S for that. MBTI (Church's basis) is equivalent to BCSI (the aristocratic basis).
< 1754501033 581213 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still chewing on the revelation that GI is equivalent to BCI. I can't find a source for this prior to Smullyan and suspect that he's the one who proved it first.
< 1754501368 274975 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked at this, I decided there were 3×3=9 basic combinators: when compiling an application from lambda calculus to combinators by eliminating variables one at a time, the left and right of the application can each be a) a term that doesn't include the variable you're eliminating, or b) a term that's just a single variable (the one you're eliminating), or c) a term that does include the variable you're eliminating but is rooted at an application
< 1754501376 711883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :three possibilities for the LHS, three for the RHS
< 1754501455 313058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in case c) you have to recursively eliminate the variable
< 1754501494 540922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, K doesn't show up in this scheme (but KI does)
< 1754501509 745849 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ZYP: points -21.33, score 7.28, rank 47/47 (--)
< 1754501605 65514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time. ← it's probably just calling execvp, which probably doesn't cache, and might not even be able to without breaking the spec
< 1754501646 18862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bash is able to cache paths of executables, but doesn't unless specifically requested to, in case you install a new executable higher up on the path than one that's been cached
< 1754501649 281972 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, But both bash and zsh are smarter (you can see that with the hash command)
< 1754501662 708268 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think bash does this by default?
< 1754501710 550422 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the zsh setup I use hashes everything in PATH once at startup I believe
< 1754501713 741574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if inotifying on PATH would be more efficient than rescanning every time
< 1754501722 562334 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should be
< 1754501755 540534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the contents of PATH don't usually change much, unless you have . in there
< 1754501806 975211 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :22258 s: systemd /proc/self/fd/16 | /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-executor --deserialize 144 --log-level info --log-target journal-or-kmsg <-- interesting, systemd apparently opens the binary first then execs the path under /proc. For some reason.
< 1754501885 93878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that used to be the only safe way to prevent TOCTOU
< 1754501894 491788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to do some checks on a file before operating on it
< 1754501938 893310 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but this is a root program executing another root owned program as root. My guess is that this is to protect against upgrades. E.g. if I install a new version of systemd it wants to keep executing the old version of this helper binary
< 1754501951 867130 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably to protect against unstable API breaking things
< 1754501967 803756 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what about shared libraries? Won't help with that
< 1754501973 285512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this was notably famous with setuid shell scripts – some OSes checked to see if the file was setuid, then escalated and passed the file to the shell, but that was exploitable by swapping out a component of its path after the check but before the root shell started)
< 1754502026 212242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays you can use openat and friends, which is a little more elegant
< 1754502033 591960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to protect against the same exploit
< 1754502046 732734 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :openat doesn't help with exec though?
< 1754502057 297968 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no execfd()
< 1754502057 651428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :execat can execute from an open FD
< 1754502065 763036 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, execveat
< 1754502065 812274 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh there is?
< 1754502149 258925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like the rule is to pass an empty string as the filename, the file's FD where you would normally put the directory FD, and AT_EMPTY_PATH in the flags
< 1754502151 184656 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, looking at the bird book, the list in the appendix says Txy = yx, which is the combinator that ais523 mentioned. The book also uses this a lot, and in http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html this is the very first named combinator, called swap. I will have to add it to the tables.
< 1754502208 695996 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: anyway, bpftrace is really cool. Well worth playing around with and seeing what is going on on your system. Plus very useful skill to have for when you need to use it in an actual emergency.
< 1754502222 947962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the second-most used combinator in my codebase, after B
< 1754502225 401509 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can collect stacks, make histograms, etc
< 1754502249 266837 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's the underload ~ operator, right?
< 1754502275 979400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's more like ~^
< 1754502331 873128 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1754502335 331461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is also very commonly used in Underload, sufficiently so that I have it abbreviated to ` in my notes)
< 1754502337 795866 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm getting confused here
< 1754502385 338986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Underload/combinator correspondence is inherently confusing, I think
< 1754502389 897595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, I have trouble following it
< 1754502451 877789 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why I made a table at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Mlatu#Relation_to_Underload , and now I'll have to add an extra column to it with the one-letter names from the bird book
< 1754502489 177350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and probably add a few rows too
< 1754502529 760799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably whichever of T, B, C, M, W aren't in there
< 1754502541 951732 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and S too I guess
< 1754502544 689515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I mean it doesn't quite translate directly
< 1754502597 69180 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? but all lambda calculus expressions translate to Underload, it's that some underload expressions don't translate to combinators
< 1754502598 627970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because after running a command you have to pass control to the next command in the program, not the top of the stack
< 1754502616 879782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes but that's a *different* translation
< 1754502641 98555 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat
< 1754502708 478190 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm too tired to figure this out now
< 1754502878 784877 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, b_jonas: What's happening is that we can interpret the combinators in ETCC instead of ETCS; instead of functions on values from sets, they're functors on objects from categories! And then there is often more than one category-like composition structure lurking in the typical programming environment.
< 1754502920 775426 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I debated hacking out a section in [[combinatory logic]] for this, but was psychically blocked by the social stigma of category theory. Maybe I'll make a side page.
< 1754503021 120719 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still don't fully understand it myself. e.g. we have to make I pull double duty; it designates both identity arrows (which each are equivalent to an object) and identity endofunctors (which are equivalent to a category).
< 1754503035 313015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the bird book talks a lot about bird properties defined by an equation where the bird appears in both sides. only one of these is mentioned in the appendix, Theta, but I think Unlambda v is mentioned somewhere, and a whole theorem of who to find a bird for any such equation. and I think these equations are not only satisfied by multiple birds, but also by multiple different combinators.
> 1754503053 849106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162972&oldid=162971 5* 03Thomas 5* (+7) 10
< 1754503759 877040 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#Table_of_combinators does not list W
> 1754503828 403744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162973&oldid=162970 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-119) 10
< 1754504207 308645 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754504353 326410 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah nuts, I knew I'd miss one. Ping me and I'll do it; otherwise, I won't step on your toes.
< 1754505583 308894 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I won't add it becuase I don't know the english names like "kestrel"
< 1754505662 456612 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the translated names are usually close to the originals, as in they mean a similar category of real-world bird animals, but animal names are fuzzy and there's no one-to-one mapping between them in different languages, so I won't try to backtranslate it
< 1754505717 805624 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this case my guess is "warbler" becuase of the names for W* and W** and W[1] listed, but you should actually check that in the book
< 1754505882 835596 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of these bird names I know of only from the bird book, not from real world bird animals
> 1754505911 398401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162974&oldid=162911 5* 03Corbin 5* (+68) 10/* Table of combinators */ Add W.
< 1754505959 117642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the table in my book lists W, W', W^*, W^{**}, but no W_1 or W_2, at least not under that name
< 1754505975 348902 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No worries! I am happy to double-check when I happen to have the corresponding dead-tree on my shelf. Ping me again if I missed another one.
< 1754506125 66794 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally a table like this should give both a lambda expression style definition like `W x y = x y y`, which is what's in the table in the book, and a combinator expression from other combinators, like W = S S (S K)
< 1754506147 203941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course the first one isn't possible for all birds
< 1754506193 976721 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it should be possible to compute the lambda calculus expressions automatically from the definitions in the table with a lambda calculus evaluator
< 1754506217 792674 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bird names never translate well. There is a bird that visits my front yard every morning. In Lojban, it's called {blanykorvo}, roughly "blue crow". In American English, it's called "California scrub jay".
< 1754506257 878295 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my problem is with "kestrel", which is apparently in the name of some falons but it's not clear if it's a meaningful group
< 1754506284 410439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I mean, {blanykorvrkalyfyrniaskrybdjei} is legal fu'ivla, but that's not how I call to them in the morning.
< 1754506314 594026 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but fortunately the book doesn't use "falcon" as a bird name
< 1754506340 796031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, no, I think "kestrel" is a vibe, probably from a fairly old word. Definitely not a clade.
> 1754506355 996458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162975&oldid=162700 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+9) 10
< 1754506393 401277 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Oh, that's apparently an American view, because the American kestrel is not a true kestrel. True kestrels have evidence for a clade. Very cool, TIL.
> 1754506561 495889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162976 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+123) 10Created page with "Primal is a esolang that works using only two accumulators and is turing complete (unless I'm missing something) Commands:"
< 1754506706 336456 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the good thing is that there are only like 10_000 bird species, less if you exclude Madagascar, New Zealand, Australia, and various isolated islands, and there probably aren't many more to discover, so there's a bound for how bad the names can become. if you tried to name something of arthropods then you'd run into an ever-growing changing mess of horrible confusing vernacular names. even naming objects
< 1754506712 706129 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from fish would be much worse than birds.
< 1754507006 646349 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Smullyan's names also include "thrush" and "bluebird", of which "bluebird" is apparently a group of thrushes in the New World only
< 1754507019 573019 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/thrushes in/thrushes living in/
> 1754507070 900339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162977&oldid=162976 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+878) 10
< 1754507159 552807 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lojban only has edible birds, not singing birds. It has duck, goose, chicken, turkey.
> 1754507183 323019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162978&oldid=162977 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+143) 10
> 1754507266 461253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162979&oldid=162978 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+133) 10
< 1754507268 790822 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :real world falcons and eagles are neither edible nor singing
> 1754507285 931966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162980&oldid=162975 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+12) 10
< 1754507293 701044 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have to say real world, because I don't claim that falcons in the bird book don't sing)
< 1754507589 154357 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a bird name for KI ?
> 1754507643 272470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162981&oldid=162969 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+46) 10
> 1754507780 19954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162982&oldid=162981 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+77) 10
< 1754507780 82286 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754507796 687991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162983&oldid=162982 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
< 1754507949 110224 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think K I actually shows up. The sections that introduce K and I are adjacent and there's lots of exercises involving how they are related to fundamental properties, but I didn't see the formation of K I in there.
< 1754508048 724169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Lertsek )
< 1754508247 613476 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get the feeling that Smullyan didn't want to name the constant birds. He talked about how they can become constant, using properties like "fixation" and "egocentrism" that I'm not super-comfortable using as-is.
< 1754508477 146544 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, he more-or-less defines a kestrel as any combinator K s.t. K x is fixated on x, which merely means that (K x) y = x; in today's language, we say that K x y is constantly x, which is just an unhelpfully-long explanation of that = sign.
> 1754508911 430509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162984 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+882) 10Created page with "MIG+ is a version of MIG with a shared variable Instead of going to the next command in the stack, they go to a command based on the variable and set the variable to a different value. Notation: MIG+ code looks like this: x_{1,1},y_{1,1},"string_{1,1}":z_
> 1754508942 649943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162985&oldid=162984 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+24) 10
> 1754508964 672670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162986&oldid=162985 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+68) 10
> 1754509053 600947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162987&oldid=162986 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+86) 10
> 1754509195 929483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162988&oldid=162987 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+81) 10
> 1754509212 481359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162989&oldid=162980 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+10) 10
< 1754509424 762072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I see
< 1754510302 395810 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754510462 104946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162990&oldid=162988 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+340) 10
> 1754510993 398945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162991 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+347) 10Created page with "Treebrainfuck is a derivative of brainfuck: Changes: Treebrainfuck is a version of brainfuck that instead of taking place on a tape, takes place infinitely far up a infinite tree with an infinite number of branches on each node this variation adds o
> 1754511208 382737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162992&oldid=162991 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1047) 10
> 1754511309 366479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162993&oldid=162992 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+106) 10
> 1754511399 514090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162994&oldid=162989 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+19) 10
> 1754511489 440513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arr ow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162995&oldid=162587 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+33) 10
> 1754512495 207787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162996 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+5487) 10Woohoo
< 1754512512 262283 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1754513804 63017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1754513805 874014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1754515957 638784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162997&oldid=162954 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+443) 10/* Syntax */
< 1754516337 918959 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754516521 774844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162998&oldid=162997 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-59) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754519289 467907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162999&oldid=162998 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+522) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754519362 89635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163000&oldid=162999 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+23) 10/* Commands */
> 1754519418 738045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163001&oldid=163000 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-40) 10/* Deduction */
< 1754519421 917046 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754523968 251614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163002&oldid=163001 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+856) 10
> 1754523991 212403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163003&oldid=163002 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+4) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754524010 474884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163004&oldid=163003 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+5) 10/* #id - More plugging in */
> 1754524420 588182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163005&oldid=163004 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+13) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754524468 461492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163006 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+133) 10Created page with "conlang ~~~~"
> 1754525469 742042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163007&oldid=163005 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754525482 609162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163008&oldid=163007 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-2) 10/* Deduction */
< 1754526067 507207 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754526253 101003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163009&oldid=162973 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+214) 10
> 1754528659 417142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163010&oldid=163009 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-214) 10
< 1754537950 722320 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python golfing contest: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
> 1754538264 479508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163011&oldid=162996 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+531) 10Instructions Yay
> 1754538300 144388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163012&oldid=163011 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1) 10/* SARCASM Instruction Set */
< 1754539378 354048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754539511 56278 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1754539750 526934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163013&oldid=163012 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+324) 10
> 1754540700 913289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163014&oldid=163013 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+549) 10user input in the form of a single digit
> 1754540939 481396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163015&oldid=163014 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+4) 10/* SARCASM Instruction Set */
> 1754541202 758386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163016&oldid=163015 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+233) 10Infobox also added credit for me to making it.
> 1754541248 859290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163017&oldid=163016 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+7) 10Spacing
> 1754541655 353996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163018&oldid=163017 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1) 10s. That's all for tonight i think.
< 1754547016 840700 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754548620 628224 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754549744 846422 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1754553620 814172 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754554226 847581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754554349 237125 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754554395 976792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp *%eax
< 1754554398 853292 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
< 1754554414 674659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp %eax
< 1754554416 537085 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
< 1754554419 916353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp %rax
< 1754554421 728642 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Warning: indirect jmp without `*' \ ff e0: jmpq *%rax
< 1754554425 273177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp *%rax
< 1754554427 144159 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ff e0: jmpq *%rax
< 1754554718 549909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rip, %rax), %rcx
< 1754554720 892585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rip,%rax)' is not a valid base/index expression
< 1754554734 596930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax), %rcx
< 1754554737 255906 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8b 8c 05 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,1),%rcx \ 00
< 1754554743 896688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %eax), %rcx
< 1754554745 272385 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rbp,%eax)' is not a valid base/index expression
< 1754554784 160039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax, 8), %rcx
< 1754554786 731851 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8b 8c c5 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,8),%rcx \ 00
< 1754554830 26321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding lea 0x1234(%rip), %rbp
< 1754554833 326014 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8d 2d 34 12 00 00: lea 0x1234(%rip),%rbp # 0x123b
< 1754557504 880698 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The concise implementations produced by top teams are likely to serve as canonical reference solutions for this seminal dataset."
< 1754557520 997186 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O (Are we _sure_ we want AI systems to generate golfed code?)
< 1754557609 479234 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There seems to be an (unwarranted?) assumption that the shortest possible solution will naturally "emphasiz[e] robustness and simplicity".
< 1754559541 233478 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1754561006 523084 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754561160 421274 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754563621 65584 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754565050 142711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: in my experience, golfed code emphasizes algorithms with fewer and simpler steps over robust and performant algorithms
< 1754565074 603236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, frequently the shortest way to write something is to loop over all possible outputs and check to see whether each one is correct
< 1754565190 623774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the shortest implementation of integer square root I can think of involves checking all numbers from n to 0 downwards until you find one whose square is less than or equal to n, for example
< 1754565200 974133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…but this is one of the worst possible algorithms you could be using in practice
< 1754565230 614486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is assuming that you don't have a builtin, e.g. because you're implementing the builtin)
< 1754565400 301680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, now I'm wondering whether implementing it in terms of float sqrt would be faster, the issue is dealing with potential rounding errors but maybe there's some terse way to correct for that
< 1754565424 156778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, terser, not faster
< 1754565568 286927 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+deb11u1 - https://znc.in
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< 1754565754 550771 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1754567489 520453 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It might be secretly a contest to make a golfing AI--each of the 400 functions is scored by itself, so they have to be golfed separately even if they have similar subprograms
< 1754567563 575489 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's also uncertain whether they intended the contest to be about this)
< 1754567574 146961 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754567592 219757 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1754568088 741869 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
< 1754568131 474378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? it
< 1754568136 201552 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
< 1754568236 469820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, found the link above.
< 1754568389 202141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :400 tasks
< 1754568455 264161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this is clearly angling for ML
< 1754568667 274147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can't even access the problems without entering a contract with them.
< 1754569235 242243 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754569506 749512 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1754569705 188822 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, if you have a floating point type that has a significand at least a few bits larger than the integer input (eg. 32-bit integer and 64-bit double) then I think you can covert to float, add 0.5, take square root, then convert to integer rounding towards zero or down. this is very terse in many languages like C because the type
< 1754569705 689408 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :conversions can often by implicit.
< 1754569868 430906 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for that golf contest, hey look, https://rosettacode.org website is accessible again, great
< 1754569980 696285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I was mostly thinking about the case where you don't have a big enough float type
< 1754569989 284613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can 64-bit floats let you square-root 64-bit integers?
< 1754570014 28686 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that's possible
< 1754570014 809443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm really just interested in how varied the problems are... is it all conversions from some input image into and output image? is there text processing too? are there any actual algorithms or just input/output pairs?
< 1754570031 474691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it might be, but it won't be as golfy
< 1754570083 390788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(So not interested in actually solving any of them.)
< 1754570108 204877 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you'd need a few trial squaring after you get an approxiate square root using the floating-point number
< 1754570295 310179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
< 1754570303 67139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
< 1754570304 646303 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : True
< 1754570355 180624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this kind of thing makes it rather unlikely)
> 1754570794 672281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163019&oldid=162956 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+504) 10/* xixixixixi Lang */
> 1754570858 91036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163020&oldid=163006 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+120) 10
< 1754570938 838051 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the ARC problems are all image-to-image (or grids of integers 0-9, as there are only 10 "colours") but each problem has its own implicit rules shown by the example pairs, they're kind of like riddles
< 1754570958 858278 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: a 64-bit float has a 53-bit mantissa so it can represent every int n with error less than sqrt(n)/2, so the float sqrt should work
< 1754571043 688288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: thanks
< 1754571114 445710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the float square root should get you within 1 of the desired answer
< 1754571195 598478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think you'll have to square and test (or something eqivalent) once to find the final answer.
< 1754572067 699983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re: that arcprize codegolfing, I think I understand why they want it – the shortest description of the problem is likely the one that generalises best
< 1754572083 420795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the inefficient brute-force solution is actually the desirable one, here
< 1754572176 693676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :evaluating that sort of solution might be hard, though
> 1754572186 331411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163021&oldid=163019 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+490) 10
< 1754572569 267614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh the contest design is fine for what it is. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I do believe that they should give you a small but representative sample set of tasks before you sign up formally.
< 1754572758 18251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Context matters. This could be an ICFP programming contest and I'd probably feel a bit different about it then.
> 1754573013 648433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163022&oldid=162798 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
< 1754573592 88865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are plenty of public arcprize tasks
< 1754573621 653016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, there has to be a list of tasks that they're trying very hard to not allow into AI training data, as it would defeat their purpose
< 1754574201 5420 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: wait, what is this ARC image problems thing? that sounds very interesting, I was thinking there should be image to image golf problems, and this may or may not be similar
> 1754574292 432761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163023&oldid=163021 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+320) 10
< 1754574402 702334 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it may be worth to check what the blue book says about integer square root. I think it talks about how to compute it, but I don't recall if floats are involved. b_jonas may check it at home where I have the book on my shelf – it's too far to reach from wib_jonas
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> 1754574805 750519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163024&oldid=163023 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+173) 10/* Whats the shape of the earth? */
< 1754575134 97897 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Google has turned the ARC AI problem set into, I suppose you could think of these as 400 image golf problems now: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
< 1754575212 495441 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're just using the 2024 training problems for this contest, which are already public
< 1754575327 5032 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hopefully they're creating additional private tests for these though, to prevent hardcoding
< 1754575457 844877 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The problems can be browsed on the website: https://arcprize.org/play?task=007bbfb7)
< 1754575627 620346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so arcprize has four sets: an easy and difficult public set, a difficult mostly-private set (has been sent over LLM APIs but not published online), and a difficult truly-private set (which only interacts with programs running on their own hardware, so they can prevent them exfiltrating details)
< 1754575667 345378 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1754575730 215917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it crossed my mind, while I was AFK, that maybe generating small esoprograms and using them to produce output would be an interesting way to produce patterns that aren't biased by human experience
> 1754575750 261394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163025&oldid=163018 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+38) 10Python implment
< 1754575765 115253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you would probably need some sort of recursive RLE step to make exponentially growing patterns small enough for humans to grasp
< 1754575823 451117 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the scoring described somewhere?
< 1754575826 215200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem would be a "continue the pattern" type of problem
< 1754575846 463878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I picked it up from articles on their blog, it's % of problems for which a correct answer is submitted
< 1754575856 465153 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1754575857 767896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably on the first try
< 1754576463 769021 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754576562 325358 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exponentially growing outputs might be a bit too unnatural, and unphysical
< 1754576644 643571 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the outputs are constrained to a spatial grid, that reminds me of MJ (a successor to the WFC method) -- https://github.com/mxgmn/MarkovJunior
< 1754576677 909577 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The example programs are quite short, and chosen for human interest but some randomly sampled programs might behave differently
< 1754576718 88748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, we could use a wrapping memory space
< 1754576720 804156 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alternatively you could project an exponential output to a space that can contain it, like a hyperbolic plane
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< 1754579852 138584 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
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> 1754580139 100091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Easyfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163028&oldid=119733 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10
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> 1754581094 469049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163031&oldid=163024 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+447) 10
> 1754581873 454040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Easyfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163032&oldid=163028 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+5324) 10/* Constants (shortest) */
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> 1754584581 674856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emoticode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163037&oldid=163036 5* 03Myalt2334 5* (+5) 10/* Flush */
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> 1754584919 132005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163039&oldid=163038 5* 03Myalt2334 5* (+23) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */
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< 1754589458 194719 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I checked the blue book. it does talk about integer square root, but not about how to compute it using floating point square root
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> 1754598707 810726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise automata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163062&oldid=157847 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-2793) 10Deleted it for a reason, the updated page is on Noise Automata, whoever wants this page can take it.
> 1754598897 897044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163063&oldid=159536 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+54) 10sarcasm
> 1754600403 663691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163064 5* 03A() 5* (+789) 10Created page with "[[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
< 1754600896 258879 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754601910 61283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Python nerd1235 5* 10New user account
> 1754603475 504987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163065&oldid=150706 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+175) 10/* Where is Python 3 */
> 1754604492 627517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163066&oldid=162785 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+134) 10
> 1754604617 65302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163067&oldid=158115 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10br tag
> 1754604820 579909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Stubnoinfo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163068&oldid=161700 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10aaa
> 1754604870 123012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163069&oldid=163067 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10oops, I used the nowiki tag for the template
> 1754613035 251775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163070&oldid=162768 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+129) 10
> 1754613195 326249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163071&oldid=163066 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+110) 10
> 1754613233 486124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163072&oldid=163071 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+67) 10
> 1754613776 547868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163073&oldid=163072 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-79) 10
> 1754613928 811899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163074&oldid=163020 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+158) 10
> 1754614091 739544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163075&oldid=113071 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10Correcting a typo
> 1754614224 204921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DWIM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163076&oldid=131444 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+342) 10
< 1754617966 970612 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
> 1754619777 185234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Infinite noise automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163077 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+3) 10Created page with "???"
> 1754626582 830096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163078&oldid=162962 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+100) 10
< 1754626584 157281 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1754627284 863534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163079&oldid=163074 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+139) 10
> 1754627407 30569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163080&oldid=163031 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-2) 10/* Whats the shape of the earth? */
< 1754631786 977862 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754632187 454890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163081&oldid=160824 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+75) 10
< 1754634022 402111 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1754634230 447414 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1754634523 755557 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1754635437 46446 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754635743 318957 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754635975 669005 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754637306 871515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163082&oldid=163025 5* 03WinslowJosiah 5* (+499) 10Add Truth-machine
< 1754637936 622169 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754645338 897882 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754648522 744133 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1754650638 896573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163083&oldid=162710 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+18) 10
> 1754650914 67765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163084&oldid=163083 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+12) 10
> 1754651421 279196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163085&oldid=58600 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+289) 10/* Example programs */ "Hello, world!" program
> 1754651484 261264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BrainFuckGirl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163086&oldid=161179 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+10) 10/* Code */
< 1754652154 867031 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1754652196 394235 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1754654500 888546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163087 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+128) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} cirbe is an esolang that uses the following 16 unicode characters: "
< 1754654891 92296 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1754655492 577352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL, the top entries on https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025/leaderboard are all... close to the maximum value representable by an IEEE double
< 1754655503 14236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :something went wrong ;-)
< 1754657383 872429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754660001 253756 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:7fa8:653d:2944:84b0 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754661165 850182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163088&oldid=162926 5* 03A() 5* (+17) 10/* W */
< 1754661503 973963 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
> 1754661759 723647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163089&oldid=163064 5* 03A() 5* (+234) 10
> 1754661828 509467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163090&oldid=163089 5* 03A() 5* (-1) 10
> 1754661992 388126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163091&oldid=163090 5* 03A() 5* (+34) 10/* Infinte loop */
> 1754662048 153977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163092&oldid=163091 5* 03A() 5* (+52) 10/* Hello World */
> 1754662297 99400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163093&oldid=163061 5* 03A() 5* (+160) 10
< 1754662490 867087 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754662778 188398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163094&oldid=163092 5* 03A() 5* (+24) 10/* Programs */
> 1754662842 311535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163095&oldid=163094 5* 03A() 5* (+60) 10/* Programs */
> 1754663051 537841 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163096&oldid=162621 5* 03A() 5* (+225) 10/* Implementations */
> 1754663464 564488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163097&oldid=163088 5* 03A() 5* (+11) 10/* S */
> 1754664235 448668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163098&oldid=163087 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+123) 10
> 1754664282 353991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163099&oldid=163098 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+6) 10
> 1754665194 154134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163100&oldid=163099 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+547) 10
> 1754666227 106855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163101&oldid=163100 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+293) 10
> 1754666339 286506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163102&oldid=163101 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-5) 10
< 1754667114 181495 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754667128 268274 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
> 1754667418 151796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163103&oldid=163102 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+320) 10
> 1754667736 415541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163104&oldid=163103 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+30) 10
> 1754670385 401098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ello 5* 10New user account
> 1754670637 191908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163105&oldid=163029 5* 03Ello 5* (+210) 10
> 1754671907 69431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163106&oldid=163082 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+15) 10Add Jumping
< 1754674919 346973 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1754676014 585704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073DGrid14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163107 5* 03A() 5* (+1259) 10Created page with "[[3DGrid]] uses a 10 by 10 by 10 3d grid of numbers as a program. [[User:A()]] made it. ==Commands== 00 - nop 01 - move forwards 02 - move backwards 03 - move left 04 - move right 05 - move up 06 - move down 07 - Intersection 08 - make new Pointer, and make it move
< 1754676541 261919 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754677251 572232 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1754677788 668539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163108 5* 03Ello 5* (+2743) 10Created page with "Lime Squeezer is an esoteric programming language created by Ello, me :D ==Basic Syntax== Lime Squeezer uses 8-bit op-codes, has 2 8-bit stacks(both have a 16 kilobyte limit) and is run from bottom up, also, any operands, are written below(or in this case: above) t
> 1754678080 556867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163109&oldid=163108 5* 03Ello 5* (+27) 10
> 1754679481 50761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163110&oldid=163109 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754679508 400552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163111&oldid=163110 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754680385 449798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163112 5* 03Ello 5* (+4091) 10Created page with "this page is a russian translation of [[Lime Squeezer]] done by Ello, me again :D i did this cuz i am russian and want russian people to know about my esolang too :> Ello, :D == == 8- -, 8- (..."
< 1754681154 183672 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754681167 44051 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1754682298 797491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FALSE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163113&oldid=146379 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10/* See also */
> 1754682387 863197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02true10]] to [[True (Ractangle)]] over redirect: rebranding the project
> 1754682387 886553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10Ractangle deleted redirect [[02True (Ractangle)10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[true]]"
> 1754682681 386554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163116&oldid=162266 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10Not specifying a type result in a type used by the return value type of the varible
> 1754683427 709503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07True14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163117&oldid=145361 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+9) 10
> 1754683668 587862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163118&oldid=163116 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+488) 10/* Errors */
< 1754684505 449411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1754684752 495758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163119&oldid=163118 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-830) 10/* Syntax */
> 1754684954 761584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163120&oldid=163119 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-98) 10/* Examples */
< 1754685200 845492 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754685586 452678 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1754685691 960036 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754685942 989236 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The metric implementation is not yet secure, scores are presently for debugging only.
< 1754685949 42660 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does say that on the page.
< 1754685959 738148 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(At least now.)
< 1754686020 862221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I don't know whether it said that earlier; it's not very prominent.
< 1754686060 781852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously these entries will be easy to disqualify :P
< 1754686082 965520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(along with any others that cheat the same way but keep the score realistic)
> 1754686314 705905 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163121&oldid=163120 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-5) 10oops, missed a spot
> 1754686378 315661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163122&oldid=163121 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+26) 10/* Syntax */ AYSHU WAS DA U
> 1754686523 996719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073DGrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163123&oldid=163107 5* 03A() 5* (-7) 10/* Truth Machine */
< 1754686915 283655 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754686989 362982 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1754688086 334762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Postrado14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163124&oldid=158021 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-59) 10/* Commands */
> 1754688749 961906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073DGrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163125&oldid=163123 5* 03A() 5* (+194) 10
> 1754688795 771203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073DGrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163126&oldid=163125 5* 03A() 5* (+19) 10
> 1754690404 721158 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Insanely Easy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163127 5* 03A() 5* (+109) 10Created page with "[[TotallyInsanelyEasy Screenshot 2025-08-08 5.57.17 PM|Caption1 ]]"
< 1754690791 199708 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754691538 831345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163128&oldid=163010 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1587) 10
> 1754692180 905605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163129&oldid=163111 5* 03Ello 5* (+70) 10
> 1754692212 272061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163130&oldid=163112 5* 03Ello 5* (+98) 10
> 1754692747 354164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163131&oldid=163130 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754692758 866035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163132&oldid=163129 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754697358 132620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cookie14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163133 5* 03Ello 5* (+3531) 10Created page with "Cookie is an esoteric programming language made by Ello, me :D ==Base Syntax== Cookie has 8-bit integers, 16-bit integers, 8-bit arrays and 16-bit arrays as variables their names are as follows: 8-bit integer | Plain 16-bit integer| Oatmeal Raisin string | Milk
> 1754697567 946288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cookie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163134&oldid=163133 5* 03Ello 5* (+522) 10
> 1754698186 746005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cookie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163135&oldid=163134 5* 03Ello 5* (+42) 10
> 1754698325 592417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5* 10moved [[02 10]] to [[Lime Sqeezer/ru]]
> 1754698350 225376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03I am islptng 5* 10moved [[02Lime Sqeezer/ru10]] to [[Lime Squeezer/ru]]: Misspelled title
> 1754698448 776534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cookie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163140&oldid=163135 5* 03Ello 5* (+35) 10
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< 1754698652 506016 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:7fa8:653d:2944:84b0 QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
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> 1754704972 295556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sollux14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163156 5* 03Bigman4u 5* (+12023) 10First draft of sollux page
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< 1754710913 213633 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
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> 1754718190 529800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163159&oldid=163158 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+10) 10
< 1754718575 789339 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754718700 462561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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> 1754725559 749693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Filename "xxx" doesn't seem to be a valid filename. Please check if the filename your trying to execute is written correctly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163160&oldid=158024 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+24) 10
> 1754725965 888659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163161 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+3006) 10renamed language
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> 1754728936 476894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:My github profile read me.png10]]"
> 1754729992 361954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163163&oldid=163161 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-3006) 10Blanked the page
> 1754730057 841114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* 10moved [[02Setler10]] to [[Oisg0ba328946vbser]]: idk how to delete this page
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> 1754730476 878037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163168&oldid=163167 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+32) 10delete request
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> 1754730923 194174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* 10moved [[02Selter10]] to [[Setler v1]]: i changed the name of the language
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> 1754731301 404813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163175&oldid=163169 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+123) 10changed to disambig
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< 1754733084 253133 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo
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< 1754741138 771386 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] based299792458
< 1754741233 808446 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :yo
> 1754741685 988391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sollux14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163176&oldid=163156 5* 03Bigman4u 5* (+1) 10fix typos
> 1754743840 262614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emoticode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163177&oldid=163047 5* 03Myalt2334 5* (+25) 10I only needed one category, right..? I don't know how to fully categorize this.
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> 1754747730 245017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emoticode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163179&oldid=163177 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+105) 10categories
> 1754748214 473006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163180&oldid=163080 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+88) 10
< 1754748706 419782 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
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> 1754752195 4989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163182&oldid=163178 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+4) 10/* Rules */
> 1754752206 379200 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163183&oldid=163182 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+8) 10/* Rules */
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< 1754753133 43917 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1754754525 409840 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: Morning.
> 1754755957 859892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163184&oldid=154619 5* 03Corbin 5* (+370) 10Clean up the intro.
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< 1754757615 225420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my normal hedging around the Church-Turing thesis is to say "any language that we know how to implement" when defining TCness, computability, etc.
< 1754757647 267198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that should uncontroversially exclude the uncomputable ones
< 1754757670 301983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sometimes I also mention time travel as an example of something that gives more power but we don't know how to implement it)
> 1754757723 361486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Insanely Easy10]]": this page contains no useful content, in particular it does not contain a description of an esolang
< 1754757961 25142 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm working on the next edit, where I give Turing's argument that we can only write finitely many symbols on a region of paper. But yeah, for sure, there's many possible surprises in physics that we haven't ruled out.
< 1754758007 667621 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Personally I think that C = BQP, rather than something like C = R. BQP already requires the universe to commit to exponential amounts of data that can't be accessed, by Hardy's and Holevo's theorems, so it's already quite a difficult metaphysical pill to swallow.
< 1754758075 321678 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Holevo's theorem, or Holevo's bound, says a row of qubits only yields a row of bits when measured. Hardy's ontological excess-baggage theorem says that a row of qubits has exponential amounts of bits when classically described. I didn't do it, man.)
< 1754758094 20559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :analog computers typically initialise with uncomputable numbers already in their integrators, but I'm not sure there's any way to actually benefit from that fact
< 1754758158 732850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…actually the universe is *trivially* capable of going beyond TCness – Turing machines can't generate random numbers, but physical processes can
< 1754758166 541856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure why I didn't notice that before
< 1754758234 167926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can argue that the random numbers don't give any extra computational power, but that depends on how you define "computational"
< 1754758243 821101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it makes at least some phrasings of the Church-Turing thesis obviously false
< 1754758303 574120 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :chances that physical "randomness" is just chaos?
< 1754758329 558422 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, usually we use something like BPP or BQP, which evidence suggests are bounded as low as NP, and are definitely bounded by EXP.
< 1754758357 122805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: it's possible, but it flips the burden of proof
< 1754758389 150000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: No. Chaos is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions; the conditions are knowable but hard to estimate. QM is something very different. I usually start and end at the Kochen-Specker theorem: spin-1 particles have an observable which *cannot be definite*.
< 1754758393 117531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: EXP lets you simulate all the possible random outcomes, but it doesn't let you choose one of them
< 1754758417 685849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, not randomly
< 1754758451 321474 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: We only need PSPACE, by Feynman's approach; basically, we can write out each family of Feynman diagrams and there's only poly-many families. This led both to quantum computers and something called the "consistent histories" interpretation of QM.
< 1754758505 267662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's not my point – simulating all possible outcomes of a random process lets you compute anything deterministic that the random process could compute, but it doesn't allow you to pick a random number
< 1754758541 845919 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for today's reading guys lol
< 1754758553 723698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking about determinism earlier today because I was thinking about read-sidechannel exploits like SPECTRE
< 1754758561 508884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, sure. I suppose that if you want randomness, you need to ensure that the starting state is in superposition relative to the measurement device. This is easier than it sounds; with polarized sunglasses, one merely tilts their head.
< 1754758609 274294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :safe languages can prevent most exploits, but can't prevent sidechannels exfiltrating data, and it seems unlikely that modern processors would ever be immune to all possible ways of doing that
< 1754758628 444298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, running untrusted code even sandboxed is dangerous because it may be able to read secrets from your computer and exfiltrate them
< 1754758639 188336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: No worries. Randomness is a very difficult concept. We usually end up intuiting or guessing that some fundamental object has a uniform distribution somewhere, and that misleads us when we try to extract high-level understanding.
< 1754758672 678698 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. I'm sure you've seen the argument about whether the universe is ones- or twos-complement, too.
< 1754758673 464370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, I realised that if you prove that the untrusted code is *deterministic* before running it, that proves that it isn't making use of any microarchitectural side channels
< 1754758707 246739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although determinism is awkward here – it includes things like the timing of externally visible I/O
< 1754758708 146457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It can still discover properties of the emulator, but they'll be Rice-trivial properties, rather than anything with interesting semantic content.
> 1754758789 854049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163185&oldid=163184 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3107) 10Explain Turing's intuition. We're still missing Church's perspective.
< 1754758801 487169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has made me think a lot about things like security mitigations, though, e.g. ASLR seems kind-of useless in most threat models because it's so trivial to derandomize the addresses, but is much more effective when the threat model is "the attacker gives you something non-Turing-complete to parse noninteractively"
< 1754758837 663885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Speaking of Rice's theorem. I need to dig into this corner of the history more deeply. I gather that Rice's proof was along the lines of Church's proof of TC-ness; otherwise, I'm not sure what Rice proved, because Turing 1937 literally proves what we call Rice's theorem for TMs!
< 1754758975 301512 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, here's a fun fusion. In one perspective, what you're saying is that we can de-weird a code host via determinism by removing the possibility that an untrusted hunk of code could have multiple distinct actions attached to it in differing contexts.
< 1754759028 852510 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And recently, I re-climbed the hill of Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph, which says that quantum states aren't epistemic. In particular, mixed states are just as real as pure states; superpositions are as real as prepared laboratory inputs.
< 1754759090 108957 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The key to Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph (PBR please) is that we want to imagine a black-box system preparing inputs. The inputs are labeled with the state that they were prepared in. Then, we show that if the labelings are ever wrong, then we can use that wrongness to create an overlap, and that overlap leads to contradiction.
< 1754759157 748746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is so similar to black-box correctness for unsafe code loading. The loaded code is black-box in its memory layout (and capabilities, etc.) but it can have a syntactic type annotation which proves that the code was loaded in a particular safe state. Then, we show that if it ever actually was unsafe, then that unsafety can escalate to unsoundness, then to weirdness, then to exploitation.
< 1754759224 57188 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The state of the laboratory around the PBR setup doesn't really matter. Why not? Well, we're not actually interacting with it!
< 1754759286 980271 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, your setup doesn't really care about ASLR because those regions can't be accessed. There isn't actually an interaction there!
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< 1754759529 480511 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...On a re-read, I should move some of this [[computable]] stuff to [[Turing machine]]. There should be a section explaining why TMs capture computability; Turing wrote several pages justifying it, not just a single footnote.
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> 1754762329 891465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163186&oldid=163185 5* 03Corbin 5* (+72) 10/* Intuition */ Try harder to give intuition.
< 1754763768 865612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do we have a repository for public-domain papers? If not, I can start one.
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< 1754765267 602988 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1754766187 711016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163189 5* 03Ello 5* (+2938) 10Created page with "(XiNu or Xn) is an esoteric programming language made by Ello(me :D) ==Base Syntax== has a special quirk, it is nonary, which means all of its bits can have values from 0 to 8, the bytes in are 7 bits long and a kilobyte is 1013 bytes long, all outputted text in uses a speci
< 1754766341 73275 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1754766370 424524 :vyv!~vyv@bras-base-nrbaon0452w-grc-32-76-65-8-247.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver
> 1754768320 959844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163190&oldid=163186 5* 03Corbin 5* (+4309) 10/* Intuition */ Split and give Church's version too.
> 1754768875 930181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163191&oldid=163190 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ indent
> 1754768894 98310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163192&oldid=163191 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10/* Via Turing machines */ another indent
> 1754769510 868522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163193&oldid=163192 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1302) 10This is such a sick mic drop. Also, add a history section to make it all read better.
< 1754769801 829440 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:2708:39a:10c5:e0ac QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1754770633 878659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163194&oldid=163152 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+515) 10/* Ideas */
< 1754770757 186339 :vyv!~vyv@bras-base-nrbaon0452w-grc-32-76-65-8-247.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
> 1754776310 10993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163195&oldid=156431 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-146) 10/* Cat program */
< 1754776435 958395 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754777374 416938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163196&oldid=163008 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+281) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754777481 275488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163197&oldid=163193 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3450) 10/* Formalism */ Split. The existing section is basically topos theory. The new section is Yanofsky's approach!
> 1754779021 313644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163198&oldid=163196 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+470) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754780868 492392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163199&oldid=163198 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+389) 10
> 1754781099 697161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163200&oldid=163199 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+3) 10/* Example code */
> 1754781188 968816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163201&oldid=163200 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+31) 10/* Example code */
> 1754781342 721867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163202&oldid=163197 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1431) 10/* Via category theory */ And cap off with two versions of Rice's theorem. Very exciting.
> 1754782418 828209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163203&oldid=163202 5* 03Corbin 5* (+37) 10/* Via category theory */ Fix up bad phrasing and overly-broad statement.
> 1754782481 442625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163204&oldid=163194 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-51) 10
< 1754782509 211690 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I think I got everything worth getting. Yanofsky's 2003 paper is so good. Like, I wish that I could just slap cranks with it over and over and over again.
< 1754782559 458274 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the first two sections of [[computable]] are accessible. I fully acknowledge that the three sections with maths are hard and compressed.
> 1754782569 249608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163205&oldid=163204 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+25) 10
< 1754787513 608604 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754788155 962842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163206&oldid=163205 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+104) 10
> 1754788437 163937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163207&oldid=163201 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+410) 10/* Example code */
> 1754788458 221572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163208&oldid=163207 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+55) 10/* Example code */
> 1754790613 816005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163209&oldid=163022 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+133) 10
< 1754791503 509309 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754791534 47045 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1754792102 546225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163210&oldid=163206 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+259) 10
> 1754792128 351175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163211&oldid=163210 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1540) 10
> 1754792230 445953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163212&oldid=163211 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+323) 10
> 1754792247 945812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163213 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+297) 10Created page with "xp2, why wont you use this page to discuss? ~~~~"
> 1754792262 326585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163214&oldid=153435 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-620) 10Blanked the page
> 1754792447 632775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thisthat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163215&oldid=161078 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-22) 10/* Truth machine */ redundancy
> 1754792960 317680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163216&oldid=163212 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+471) 10/* Ideas */
> 1754793069 383957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163217&oldid=163216 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+41) 10
> 1754793095 359838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163218&oldid=163217 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+21) 10
> 1754793107 98930 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163219&oldid=163218 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-3) 10
> 1754793145 679327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163220&oldid=163219 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+36) 10
> 1754793192 739421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163221&oldid=163220 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1753) 10
< 1754793712 972993 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
> 1754793808 137776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163222&oldid=163213 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1837) 10
> 1754793820 830232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163223&oldid=163221 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1754795245 181918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163224&oldid=163052 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+118) 10
> 1754795641 522394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/nil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163225&oldid=163050 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+62) 10
> 1754795781 679629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/wikipiss14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163226&oldid=160014 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4721) 10more fuel for the fire
> 1754795815 923715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/wikipiss14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163227&oldid=163226 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-4721) 10nevermind
< 1754798197 788866 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754802049 824910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Sharp flat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163228&oldid=153422 5* 03L4.m2 5* (+60) 10/* Misunderstood */ new section
> 1754804002 657906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163229&oldid=162915 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+151) 10
> 1754804456 302018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163230&oldid=163229 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+66) 10
> 1754805234 648745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163231&oldid=163230 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+146) 10
< 1754806536 522691 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754806541 271593 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1754811631 645649 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1754812846 307511 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754813647 934079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler v114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163232&oldid=163174 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-8) 10
< 1754813979 878383 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1754815972 820761 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754816033 787940 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1754817530 410887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bantas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163233&oldid=99653 5* 03Muthym 5* (+512) 10/* Commands */
> 1754817655 302958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bantas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163234&oldid=163233 5* 03Muthym 5* (-15) 10/* Commands */
< 1754820811 977357 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
> 1754820965 899642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DragonLang/Example14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163235 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+339) 10Created page with "{{Back|DragonLang}} = Hello, World! = I should take into account many people who don't know how to code. print("Hello, World!") = Collatz Sequence = let x <- int(input()); while x != 1: if x.odd() = true: print(f"3{x}+1={x*3+1}");
> 1754821033 991544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DragonLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163236&oldid=160947 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-9) 10
< 1754821655 852928 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754822573 552622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163237&oldid=163079 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+150) 10
> 1754823938 640712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163238&oldid=163181 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+115) 10
< 1754824938 448151 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754824977 34788 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1754825105 849058 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1754827112 905742 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well now I'm running debian oldoldstable once again. sad.
< 1754827194 571349 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, they no longer officially support x86_32? that's a pity. there's still some cheap x86_32 hardware out there.
< 1754827615 991419 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION → Bathtub 🐋
< 1754828092 173630 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I get to it, I'll have to decide if I want to double-upgrade in place or reinstall. for now I'm leaning towards double-upgrade.
> 1754828416 332025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163239&oldid=163208 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-2) 10/* Notes */
< 1754828496 845611 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`lsb_release -d
< 1754828498 500797 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
< 1754828515 695088 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's I guess now oldoldoldstable.
< 1754828591 309507 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(All the "real" installations I'm responsible for are on 12/bookworm, I just never get around to upgrading that container-like thing.)
< 1754828838 404282 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually I wonder if it would make more sense to run that as an actual OCI image rather than a systemd-nspawn oddity. I think those get the same level of namespace-based isolation, and then it would be easier to just swap the base.
< 1754829295 945238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1754829318 15232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: https://www.debian.org/releases/ doesn't call it oldoldoldstable.
< 1754829372 129509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also breaking that list with a "historic releases" headline is painful, it says I'm so old I belong into a museum because I ran those releases
< 1754829382 396497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, "Forky"?!
< 1754829405 95700 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they may be running out of good character names in the franchise
< 1754829429 616998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :More Toy Story I see... but surely there are better names available?
< 1754829486 322412 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they'll have to switch to a different classic movie or TV series, one that has much more character names
< 1754829555 490353 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trixie would have been a good opportunity because it's also the name of a significant MLP character, and MLP has a TON of named characters, but it's too late if they named Forky and Duke
< 1754829564 377850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh... part of the story is that they burned 8 names on 1.1 to 3.1
< 1754829697 481977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754829716 588360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no, I think those are genuine separate releases, it's just that the world hadn't started the version number inflation yet, and it was completely normal for a project to have its major version number stay the same forever and the so-called minor version number changed when there's a huge incompatible change
< 1754829735 550987 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But they also have quie a few left. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toy_Story_characters
< 1754829898 234411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And what do I know. Maybe Forky is a cool character? But without context it's just an... interesting label for a collection of software.
< 1754829910 875286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: some of them are ineligible. you can't call a release "RC" because everyone would read that as "release candidate".
< 1754829939 580657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: See that's the kind of logic that I thought would also apply to "forky" :P
< 1754829973 684935 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1754830066 967433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And yeah, I saw "RC" and giggled for this reason.)
< 1754830116 592449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Ken and Barbie would probably be risky too. Not just because of trademark issues but also because you'd have to pick one before the other...)
< 1754830488 342465 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ken and Barbie are from Toy Story 3. isn't that non-canon for the purpose of naming debian releases?
< 1754830518 517445 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not into Toy Story, I don't know how many films the fans consider good
< 1754830898 263570 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think they used all the Toy Story 1 characters before moving onto Toy Story 2, not sure though
> 1754831202 108586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/End14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163240&oldid=159029 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10Change the link to a game
< 1754831373 939130 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1754831459 222928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, stretch is apparently from Toy Story 3
< 1754831461 142786 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix
< 1754831486 268228 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so is bookworm
< 1754831506 339814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and trixie. so Toy Story 3 is definitely allowed.
> 1754831548 133135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense10]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
> 1754831554 896022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/110]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
> 1754831561 188504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/210]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
> 1754831567 698186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense/End10]]": not esolang-related, and edits by other users are destroying any purpose this group of subpages might originally have had
> 1754831729 468924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163241&oldid=135794 5* 03Ais523 5* (+205) 10/* Policy summary */ clarify that it's inappropriate to use this website to host things unrelated to its purpose I suspect this has always been a rule, but not everyone seems to realise it exists
< 1754831779 860490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I've seen at least two Toy Story films, but don't really remember
< 1754831791 193084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they weren't particularly inspiring or memorable
< 1754831845 634047 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume that after running out of Toy Story characters, the next generalisation would be characters in other films by Pixar
< 1754831875 50689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although maybe that would be unacceptable and there would be a need to persuade Pixar to release another Toy Story film, just so that Debian could continue
< 1754832073 986593 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that works well because most of the time Pixar sequels of sequels are bad
< 1754832096 512693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it'd still let Debian continue even if nobody watched it?
< 1754832124 346816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :naah, the characters introduced it wouldn't really count as canonical Toy Story characters
> 1754832168 58507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163242&oldid=161992 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-38) 10Deleting a red link
> 1754832183 581087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163243&oldid=163097 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+20) 10
< 1754832208 272881 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I think they should pick a franchise from a publisher that's less aggressive with defending their trademarks than Disney.
> 1754832229 352960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163244&oldid=162531 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+107) 10/* ... */ new section
> 1754832242 394697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163245&oldid=163243 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
< 1754832359 848144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Disney didn't own Pixar at the time Debian started?
< 1754832378 735662 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1754832397 815677 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Disney owns it now, and they probably care more about *recent* trademarks, like from a new film
< 1754832412 600702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, things are only trademarked in a particular context, Disney is unlikely to trademark their characters in the context of computer software
< 1754832426 654298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe they would though
< 1754832453 331896 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if Debian could get a cheap license with some publisher that allows them to use certain names and maybe even release release-specific merchandise, for some cut of the merch income to the publisher
< 1754832480 420176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this lead to a high-profile incident when Apple the music label and Apple the computer manufacturer coexisted for years, then the computer manufacturer released iTunes and ended up intruding on the trademark context
< 1754832483 359617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forget how that one was resolved
< 1754832562 561415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia says that the computer company purchased the name from the music company, eventually
< 1754832673 533531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
> 1754834375 399997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0 3rd time14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163246&oldid=159032 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+7152) 10
> 1754834667 675887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163247&oldid=163223 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1389) 10
< 1754836632 754873 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754837121 516359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163248&oldid=163238 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+186) 10/* yxdyxxryi Lang */
> 1754837416 744936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163249&oldid=163248 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+130) 10
< 1754838674 806743 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754839604 217850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Debian could always switch to year-oriented release numbers. It's not like anybody's going to confuse them for Ubuntu.
< 1754841584 366797 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754841633 882452 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, "trixie" does sound a lot like an Ubuntu version name – it isn't actually an adjective, but some of their adjectives are really obscure and it sounds like it could be an adjective that one hasn't heard of (it has the right sound in the ending, at least)
< 1754841686 788915 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754842328 372331 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1754842916 917044 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754843740 140712 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754844376 582684 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
< 1754844958 196044 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754845179 370207 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1754846087 41021 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754846337 555970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* 10New user account
< 1754846339 628367 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, it's just spelled wrong, it would be "tricksy" if it's not a proper noun
< 1754846360 540814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, that is an adjective
< 1754846413 281206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ubuntu isn't far off T at the moment, maybe they could pick the phonetically same name as Debian
< 1754846430 558424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think they would want to
> 1754846731 794613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163250&oldid=163105 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+213) 10
> 1754846819 309908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MAKSZAB14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163251 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+59) 10I exist
< 1754846911 788582 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing
< 1754846919 539761 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754846942 788672 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754846993 84944 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754847005 788726 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing
< 1754847015 671101 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754847302 793709 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754847305 493900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1754847433 836363 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754847743 549968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163252&oldid=163122 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-5) 10
< 1754848065 908809 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754848145 377657 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1754848623 167739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MarkupL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163253&oldid=163195 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-296) 10
< 1754848866 789535 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754849236 316619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stuley14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163254&oldid=152503 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-113) 10
> 1754849269 36453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stuley14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163255&oldid=163254 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10/* Syntax */
< 1754851034 652432 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night.
> 1754851303 556965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Spellblocks14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163256 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+134) 10Created page with "Did you make this on penguinmod ~~~~"
> 1754851470 878424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Spellblocks14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163257&oldid=163256 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-134) 10Blanked the page
> 1754851496 816788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* 10moved [[02Talk:Spellblocks10]] to [[Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd]]: I dunno how to delete
> 1754851543 18022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Spellblocks14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163260&oldid=163259 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-44) 10Blanked the page
> 1754852698 220198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163261 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3810) 10Stub an old note. Trying to clean out my old folders.
> 1754855770 588562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163262&oldid=163261 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3861) 10All of the syntax in my notes. Examples are cribbed from partial descriptions of Zelda 3, Metroid 3, and Chrono Trigger which I drafted in 2023 and given here to public domain.
> 1754859203 147751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163263&oldid=95386 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Implementations */ mini
< 1754860576 39953 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754860765 872975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163264&oldid=163262 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3824) 10Semantics. This is transposed from how I originally imagined it but I don't think it matters. I need to double-check some stuff before I finish this section, but it's mostly done.
< 1754860776 984608 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1754860873 887067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163265&oldid=163263 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* Implementations */ oops
< 1754860913 650064 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1754861032 988668 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754864007 63523 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754864127 861944 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754865635 41348 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, C23 gained the machine fixed integer types of arbitrary fixed number of bits width (not necessarily a whole number of bytes) from zig? I hadn't heard of this until today
< 1754865643 215276 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's from zig, isn't it?
< 1754865700 199817 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if it is; I thought it was LLVM
< 1754865732 708966 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the docs at https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/c-status.html#c23 say that it's supported by gcc 14
< 1754865877 728847 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, although BITINT_MAXWIDTH ("maximum width of a bit-precise integer type") need only be "greater than or equal to the value of `ULLONG_WIDTH`", so they may not be especially wide.
< 1754865894 294856 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :GCC (at least on x86-64) makes it a lot higher, though.
< 1754865905 292445 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :am I crazy if I think the best use of these is that now we kind of have a signed bool type? (as in, the true value is -1 if you cast it to a wider signed or unsigned type; though they don't behave like the bool type when casting *from* larger integer types to them)?
< 1754865960 702588 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rather lamely, they don't allow a signed _BitInt of width 1.
< 1754865966 216443 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WHAT
< 1754865969 180818 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat
< 1754866006 838553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/n2763.pdf primarily cites FPGAs, doesn't mention Zig at all
< 1754866011 899653 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :C23 6.7.3.1p4: "The value of /N/ for `unsigned _BitInt` shall be greater than or equal to 1. The value of /N/ for `_BitInt` shall be greater than or equal to 2."
< 1754866016 335262 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's a shame too.
< 1754866244 779854 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I care much more about C++ and rust than C, but Boost Endian only provides types whose width are the multiple of a byte, and Boost Multiprecision doesn't provide signed types without memory overhead, even though bit-precise should be implementible well enough in C++ without much language support
< 1754866366 940986 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as far as I can tell ziglang should have signed 1-byte integer. it doesn't explicitly mention this, but it does say arbitrary bit-width signed and unsigned, and mentions u1 in examples a few times
< 1754866521 819634 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm generally *against* notionally packing multiple small integers together into a struct or bit-granular array with language support, so I don't really want to use these for that, but I would like signed and unsigned bool types ephemeral in computations. we do kind of have them in C and C++ already, because I can write -(a 1754870746 838746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arrow (language)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163266 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+1553) 10Created page with "Arrow is a language that appearently has its name already used so i added "(language)" but heres how it works: == Rules == the only thing that is in this language is arrows (->) (and of course parenthesis for ambiguity) the syntax arrows can be is this: A
> 1754870947 178377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arrow (language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163267&oldid=163266 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+155) 10
> 1754872480 479865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arrow (language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163268&oldid=163267 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+19) 10/* Types of arrows */
> 1754872562 629713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arrow (language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163269&oldid=163268 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+94) 10/* How they work */
> 1754872782 890413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163270&oldid=162379 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+349) 10/* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ new section
> 1754872831 226292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163271&oldid=163270 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+167) 10
> 1754873101 304533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arrow (language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163272&oldid=163269 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+120) 10
> 1754873147 851729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ARGENTOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163273&oldid=72289 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+392) 10
< 1754873178 524540 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, my maths in my Witsaff notes is junk. Or at least the arithmetic's wrong. I understand the underlying appeal to Bayes' rule but I'm going to have to re-derive the whole thing.
> 1754873387 6162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/Numbered polls in drone server14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163274&oldid=159646 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-689) 10Replaced content with "Im replacing this page with something else soon"
< 1754873592 496117 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754873605 287171 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1754873636 712475 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754873741 955578 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA JOIN #esolangs JAA :JustAnotherArchivist
> 1754874028 933109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries/One per generation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163275&oldid=159293 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1754874074 355402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163276&oldid=163271 5* 03Corbin 5* (+623) 10/* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ Give an opinion that nobody asked for.
< 1754874256 659932 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Gonna start being bolder in making people pages. If I see the same person showing up in two or three different reference contexts, I'm going to look up who they are and see whether they're relevant to us.
< 1754874289 679780 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, okay, right now I'm gonna go to dinner. But later.
< 1754875182 776252 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: does that mean you only declare variables at the start of blocks?
< 1754875201 20035 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that's the first thing that trips me up if I try to write C90
< 1754875377 35398 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh yeah, we should probably have one for Fabrice Bellard and one for Óscar Toledo
< 1754875413 958975 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also one for perlbot (or for buubot3)
< 1754875665 955843 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, do I have too many esoteric programming heroes?
< 1754875759 427556 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1754877133 640216 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754877145 447783 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
> 1754877867 16377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163277&oldid=159833 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+35) 10Added distinguish template
> 1754882192 796576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointing14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163278&oldid=163277 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+38) 10/* Expressions */
< 1754883072 464213 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I do only declare variables at the start of blocks (unless I forgot some that I might not have done, but I think I only declare at the start of blocks), and also outside of any function, but which one do you mean, if it means I only declare variables at the start of blocks?
> 1754884581 689804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163279&oldid=163231 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+382) 10
< 1754884606 941236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1754885381 579089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163280&oldid=163276 5* 03Ais523 5* (+296) 10/* About the new addition to Esolang:Policy */ nontrivial cellular automata can be viewed as esolangs
< 1754885403 188459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hate the way I've effectively become dictator of Esolang
< 1754887024 709009 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754887024 782654 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754887199 593040 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1754887799 454768 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1754887918 771947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163281&oldid=163280 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+178) 10
> 1754888431 143393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163282&oldid=163281 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1264) 10/* Why did you delete User:I am islptng/Game:Nonsense? It's in a user page! */ because this site is not a general-purpose discussion forum
> 1754890334 135163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Self-equaling squares14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163283&oldid=158257 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10fix parentheses
< 1754892454 803070 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754893152 51901 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1754893862 552793 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754894319 58835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: do you mean the wiki?
< 1754894324 571540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1754895887 980696 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754897919 575322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163284&oldid=163245 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+11) 10
> 1754898258 940901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aaaa14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163285 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+306) 10Created page with "aaaa is an [[esolang]] created by the esolang wiki user [[MAKSZAB]]. The point of the esolang is that in it you can only scream. This page will be edited later, for now here's a [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jee8tgvax6VwoMqxfUS_IlEGkl1sQQbX?usp=sharing link to th
> 1754898340 369603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aaaa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163286&oldid=163285 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+5) 10
< 1754898341 463379 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754899242 137755 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754900733 482708 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754902756 144036 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754904919 344027 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 3.5
< 1754905383 842264 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754905486 398384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FALSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163287&oldid=163113 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12) 10/* See also */ [[Mouse]]
< 1754906622 457266 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 JOIN #esolangs * :izabera
< 1754906765 698119 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 CHGHOST izabera :user/meow/izabera
< 1754906813 651190 :izabera!izabera@user/meow/izabera NICK :isabella
> 1754907175 611242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163288&oldid=162721 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+34) 10
> 1754907215 37180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163289&oldid=163288 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
< 1754907844 21412 :isabella!izabera@user/meow/izabera QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754908822 425202 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 JOIN #esolangs * :izabera
< 1754908836 449336 :izabera!izabera@2a01:7e00::f03c:92ff:fe92:6cd9 CHGHOST izabera :user/meow/izabera
< 1754908935 451114 :izabera!izabera@user/meow/izabera NICK :isabella
< 1754911384 985230 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754911731 430096 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754912585 293593 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754912968 941510 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754915005 650995 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754915708 567310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163290 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1539) 10Created page with "Dt is a real computation language, capable of solving differential equations to infinite precision. it is also rather confusing. == Specification == {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! What !! Explanation |- | func vars: || Define a function func wi
< 1754917218 124723 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1754917221 672866 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1331
< 1754917226 104695 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
> 1754918150 313211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163291 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+353) 10Created page with "Prints "Why couldn't the trans man eat meat? Because he was a her before"
wtf ~~~~"
> 1754918222 428648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163292&oldid=163291 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+12) 10
> 1754918260 208230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albanian Laundry Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163293&oldid=163292 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+33) 10
> 1754918444 851732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163294&oldid=163209 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+48) 10
< 1754919751 201471 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@12.67.114.89.rev.vodafone.pt JOIN #esolangs X-Scale :[https://web.libera.chat] X-Scale
< 1754919774 118577 :X-Scale!~X-Scale@12.67.114.89.rev.vodafone.pt QUIT :Write error: Broken pipe
< 1754920334 141196 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1754921199 178786 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1754921574 429635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Aaaa.png10]]": The logo for the aaaa esolang by MAKSZAB
< 1754922863 925929 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99b3:9a99:29d2:5644 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754924372 279201 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754925060 575480 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754926798 590792 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754927961 146213 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754932863 971345 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754933030 80264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aaaa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163296&oldid=163286 5* 03MAKSZAB 5* (+2801) 10
< 1754933841 299757 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Night
< 1754934034 552967 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754936996 803835 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754937010 485816 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754940375 950091 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754941337 12746 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1754941960 717719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163297&oldid=163150 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+201) 10
> 1754942140 283740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163298&oldid=163297 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+107) 10
< 1754942538 11324 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754943855 603872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163299&oldid=163264 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3541) 10/* Semantics */ Everything in my notes that I have re-proven, double-checked, or freshly derived.
< 1754945699 909741 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754946155 732779 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754947404 729514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163300&oldid=163299 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2811) 10/* Semantics */ Organize. Add subsections on stationary distributions and logic.
< 1754947490 554231 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754951650 455696 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754952629 824840 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754952641 480435 :yuu!sid267332@id-267332.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :yuu
> 1754956721 434628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163301&oldid=163300 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1215) 10/* Semantics */ Fully work the nastiest sort of example that can occur, or at least the nastiest example I've imagined.
< 1754960104 80193 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754962202 135705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Witsaff/Appendix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163302 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1034) 10Add a script that reproduces the non-trivial simulation-based result on the main page.
> 1754965417 460253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163303&oldid=163239 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+764) 10
> 1754970316 292343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CWarp214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163304&oldid=161455 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-3662) 10Blanked the page
> 1754970362 637285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163305&oldid=161450 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (-21) 10/* Projects that i've made: */
> 1754970397 545849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163306&oldid=163305 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+13) 10/* Project Descriptions */
> 1754972955 430507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Obscure14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163307 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+383) 10Created page with "What should we do with this page's "implementation" status (as well as all the other languages where their only impementations were on Glitch)? Because TECHNICALLY at ONE stage in time it WAS implemented, but now that glitch stopped doing hosting, it's no lo
> 1754975090 977196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Obscure14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163308&oldid=163307 5* 03Corbin 5* (+557) 10Good question!
< 1754978004 303233 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754978031 158694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163309 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+16015) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} :''gur yvsr'' is typically stylized as all lowercase. ''gur yvsr'' is the very first esolang created by [[User:Placeholding]]. It is inspired by [[Brainfuck]] and (slightly inspired by) [[Emmental]], though it is not as confusing as either of them (
< 1754978657 695760 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31f0:971:c727:4a62 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754979154 175225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03M1n3c4rt 5* 10New user account
< 1754979548 349461 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754981594 122558 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.103 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8
< 1754983331 600002 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754985212 398148 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754985451 996333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163310&oldid=163250 5* 03M1n3c4rt 5* (+104) 10
< 1754985824 972677 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754986960 519918 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Zaraday! Hail Eris! 😇
> 1754988814 154872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* 10New user account
> 1754989233 861888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163311&oldid=163310 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+126) 10
> 1754989276 722424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hiiragiaoi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163312 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+24) 10Created page with "https://github.com/lxern"
< 1754989529 976988 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754990208 201883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nullscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163313 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (+4290) 10Created page with "MediaWikiNullScript '''NullScript''' is an experimental functional programming language centered around the concept of "nothingness." Unlike traditional programming languages that have a single null value, it is characterized by distinguishing between four differ
> 1754990253 211507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nullscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163314&oldid=163313 5* 03Hiiragiaoi 5* (-63) 10
< 1754990395 537047 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :BQP more accurately describes: what we'd like to be able to compute, but it's not obvious yet whether we can actually do it
< 1754990598 711691 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The weirdness theorems (Bell, Holevo, etc) are probably right though--I think Aaronson once made the point that, if these laws didn't hold, physics would probably be extra weird in a way that would allow for even more computation
> 1754990947 44936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Insulation 5* 10New user account
< 1754991656 971152 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754991795 254077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163315&oldid=163311 5* 03Insulation 5* (+334) 10
< 1754992096 595573 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754992232 559043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163316&oldid=162749 5* 03Insulation 5* (+94) 10
< 1754994117 450133 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1754994672 990721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Insulation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163317 5* 03Insulation 5* (+91) 10Created page with "'''HELLLLOOOOOOOO''' I like breathing oxygen and nitrogen. I also expel carbon dioxide gas."
< 1754995383 629555 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.103 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1754995897 484533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754997762 187959 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754997786 287971 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754997929 315627 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1754998018 607244 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754998408 628748 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755002550 59671 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755003258 700211 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755003270 839829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07~X14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163318 5* 03Insulation 5* (+1814) 10One instruction esoteric language I think euguehehfifk
< 1755003438 312127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a bit offtopic, but potentially big tech news: https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/goodbye-github/ GitHub's CEO is leaving, and instead of acting as an autonomus company owned by Microsoft, it's being moved to be run by "Microsoft's CoreAI organization"
< 1755003461 308199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try to avoid using Github as much as possible, but am expecting major consequences anyway
> 1755003524 205442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07~X14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163319&oldid=163318 5* 03Insulation 5* (+69) 10
< 1755004043 947051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: This news irritates me because I don't perceive it as a change. The AI focus was there when MS acquired GitHub. It's just officially under the AI umbrella now which I suspect is mainly for accounting (GH revenue becomes AI revenue).
< 1755004071 369567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I agree that there's been a clear increasing AI focus there recently anyway
< 1755004091 853810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was possible to interpret it as a side business, at least that's what I was hoping it was
< 1755004128 872345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :your accounting trick theory seems reasonable, although I'd at least hope investors would see through it
< 1755004155 740408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the main consequence I see from this is that if Github becomes an AI platform rather than repository host, everyone may have ot move
< 1755004196 187065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The CoPilot integration is quite obnoxious. (I have several cosmetic ublock filters for this already, and I hardly use the github frontend actively (to contribute, as opposed to browsing repositories))
< 1755004249 52032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found an option in the github settings to disable Copilot from the UI, which made things a lot better
< 1755004254 296698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it probably only works while logged in
< 1755004267 847359 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(do the AI features even work while logged out? they are at least advertised while logged out)
< 1755004274 967373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that it's symbolic enough that it might trigger an exodus of free software and open source developers.
< 1755004300 527807 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I reserve the right to find it silly ;)
< 1755004453 782443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect there is an untapped market for things sold as "does not include AI, blockchain, or smart features"
< 1755004557 271000 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is, but is it big enough to offset the additional income from adding this crap (with the implied data collection and tracking)? (It doesn't really matter whether this added income is imaginary or real.)
< 1755004625 649765 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, it may depend on the seller in that case – some are likely to value imaginary tracking income higher than others
< 1755004677 448213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( How many non-smart TV models are there these days? )
< 1755004698 567160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sorry for the unfair question.)
< 1755004709 867791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION should ask about fridges or washing machines to make it fair.
< 1755004772 632302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that's what made me think there was an untapped market, I remember hearing someone complain about trying to buy one
< 1755004773 506941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Smart TVs are special in that the added value of using them for streaming video is real. It's just awful that the same technology is ripe for abuse.)
< 1755004811 46258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :earlier today I was reading a number of UK government reports that were trying to predict the consequences of increasing ownership of smart fridges and washing machines
< 1755004991 569860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they had two main concerns: a) cybersecurity, b) the potential that the washing machines would more often run while everyone in the house was asleep, making the consequences worse if they malfunctioned
< 1755005015 648727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b) this doesn't apply to fridges, which don't get a choice about what times of day they run
< 1755005032 672724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* b) doesn't apply
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< 1755006889 199014 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add
< 1755006898 519742 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel there's definitely been an uptick in "creative" things (like stock video clip sites) advertising themselves as 100% AI-free.
< 1755006906 393474 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's large scale free webhosting. I don't think most users will suddenly migrate away just because microsoft reorganized it to another division
< 1755006943 27277 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And Steam game pages have an AI disclosure statement.
< 1755006996 283294 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :( re TVs specifically: https://www.humansecurity.com/learn/blog/badbox-2-0-the-sequel-no-one-wanted/ )
< 1755007124 922024 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TV is different, but I very much hope that non-smart fridges and washing machines exist, because if the ones that I use die I want to be able to buy new ones. in fact, both my brother and my parents bought new (non-smart) washing machines in the last few years, so they should still exist. wow, I have the *oldest* washing machine in the family!
< 1755007125 422543 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though it's still not old, it's only roughly eleven years old.
< 1755007351 488750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : One difficulty with such an untapped market is, it's hard to prove that your product lacks such a feature that would be profitable for you to add ← you probably don't have to prove it, you can just advertise it (assuming it's true) and many customers will rely on you not wanting to risk getting sued for false advertising
< 1755007352 881603 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :We bought a new non-smart fridge freezer recently, because the previous one stopped cooling anything down, which is pretty key functionality.
< 1755007366 393526 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TVs are different for two reasons. I don't have one and don't want to buy one, whereas I love having a washing machine and fridge and wouldn't want to live without them. Regardless of "smart", televisions are effectively subsidized by Youtube and Netflix and other content providers paying the TV companies to make the TV come with prominent
< 1755007366 893848 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dedicated buttons for those services on the remote control, and prominent menu entries in the UI. I don't think that sort of advertising deal happens to fridges or washing machines.
< 1755007400 723641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: what functionality do they even have, other than cooling their contents, defrosting themselves, and illuminating their contents only when the door is open?
< 1755007439 592929 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not much. But the light still worked, so that's something.
< 1755007447 48238 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's like a display case for food at that point.
< 1755007467 52625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the papers I was reading this morning said that only about half of smart TV owners had installed them in a way that allowed any of the smart features to work
< 1755007476 375256 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do they have any fridges with glass doors? That seems like a terrible idea, but maybe.
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< 1755007505 668987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I've seen a fridge, in a video or on TV, which had a variable-opacity door, I forget what caused it to become less opaque
< 1755007515 837899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this struck me as a ridiculous feature even at the time
< 1755007516 526901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: well they have thos in some grocery stores ;)
< 1755007520 945186 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Our wine cooler (which we don't use, except temporarily when the fridge broke down, because it goes down to 6 °C or so, which is not too bad) has a transparent door.
< 1755007542 618221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it may have been featured in the video due to being unusual rather than due to being a good idea
< 1755007544 786880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure there's a market for that but overall I'd rather have proper insulation.
< 1755007569 988678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many of the groceries here used to have fridges without doors, some still do
< 1755007587 114526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but most have added doors to save energy (both in terms of saving the company money and in terms of being good for the environment)
< 1755007613 311707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think what happened is that the grocery stores would have wanted to put the doors on all along, to save money, but were worried about the customers finding it inconvenient
< 1755007629 556631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and advertised the environmental-friendless as an attempt to justify the increased inconvenience to the customers
< 1755007654 690185 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: it would be difficult for a hosting service like github. for a fridge or washing machine it's not hard, because fridges can come with no integrated electronics, and washing machines can come with just a small microcontroller clearly too small for anything "smart". same for stoves and ovens, dishwashers, microwaves, vacuum cleaners, audio
< 1755007655 190432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :amps, etc. admittedly there's the slight complication that for some of these you need some basic expertise or a permit to disassemble them safely in order to physically verify that there's no complicated integrated electronics, but it's not a huge hurdle.
< 1755007676 825789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, now I remember: when I was much younger, there was a nearby supermarket which had an entire refrigerated aisle, it had curtains at the ends (that you could walk through) in order to reduce the amount of heat that escaped from it
< 1755007810 384643 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except possibly for the fridge and microwave (and CRT televisions), you need the same expertise or permit to disconnect the appliance when you want to get rid of the device.
< 1755007838 94264 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it.
< 1755007901 300013 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amazon was sued over Alexa's collection of voice data; it doesn't seem to have left much of a dent: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2023/06/hey-alexa-what-are-you-doing-my-data
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< 1755007978 665314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: wow, that's dated 2023, I expected it to be earlier
< 1755008004 898205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, this is not just about recording, but about using the recordings to train an AI
< 1755008006 328564 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i never thought id ever see this channel actually active
< 1755008012 936497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…that's even stupider than I expected
< 1755008136 932731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may be that the court case is still ongoing, given that it was only a couple of years ago – court cases often take longer to resolve than that
< 1755008166 905449 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A small vendor also can't be ordered to un-delete collected data because they'll likely have sold the data already. A large vendor at least could be expected to protect "their" data from further exposure. I think that's one reason why people trust larger companies
< 1755008218 68281 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though if Amazon had ever sent the data out (e.g. for contractors to label) it would also no longer be possible for them to destroy it
< 1755008219 460533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been sort-of following https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/68117049/the-new-york-times-company-v-microsoft-corporation/ which seems to be one of the main court cases about AI training data
< 1755008240 226279 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tbh even my own site forbids ai scrape: https://ihatetehbsod.neocities.org/license.txt (thanks to jadeharley for the license btw)
< 1755008244 855497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the URL is a bit misleading: OpenAI and Microsoft are both defendants)
< 1755008255 629812 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah
< 1755008277 286689 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont know why anyone would want to have their stuff used to train ai
< 1755008294 914363 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I used to think so, but there are now bluetooth/wifi chips the size of a thumb, e.g. https://www.espressif.com/en/products/socs/esp32
< 1755008328 249972 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The datasheet claims it has a built-in antenna, though in practice you could just use the fridge as the antenna
< 1755008472 417820 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes there were earlier ones, but duckduckgo's swamped with recency clickbait and I can't find those now
< 1755008739 110909 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :( from 2019, maybe the one you're thinking of: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-10/is-anyone-listening-to-you-on-alexa-a-global-team-reviews-audio )
< 1755008804 36155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: paywalled, but I can figure out the story from the headline – that does seem about right
< 1755008879 848621 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: oh the esp32? yeah, heard many good stuff about it. unfortunately all im getting out of my parents and school is an arduino and the crappiest one currently being sold
< 1755008945 868972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Surely the ToS say that they "may store audio for training purposes" and that means that they *do* store it because storage is cheap :P And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. )
< 1755008957 19436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : to be clear, this is for disassembling *destructively* to verify that there's no fancy electronics in it. ← I had thoughts of trying to bootstrap a compiler starting from a platform which was too old and low-powered to be AI-complete, as a method of avoiding AI-complete trusting trust attacks
< 1755008966 131366 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it was mostly as an esoidea rather than because I expected it to be useful
< 1755008992 638204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, though, it is just about possible to imagine a compiler that contains an AI for inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds
< 1755009036 390104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : And "training" will be interpreted to allow training AIs. ← oh no, this is too plausible a possibility
< 1755009094 680753 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another Theory exists that states this has already happened. ;=P
< 1755009097 972593 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome to the Matrices!
< 1755009343 488000 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: 6 millimeters size and low power consumption. yes, I think you're right, that may be possible to hide. certainly in something like a modern washing machine, where you expect a microcontroller and decent power consumption from mains electricity.
< 1755009640 988847 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's pretty realistic. you could start from one of these old laptops with a 286 CPU and a few megabytes of hard disk and very little additional storage. I used one of those around 1995, so it shouldn't be impossible to obtain one. But I don't see what you'd use it for. You couldn't just copy the data to a modern computer without
< 1755009641 466527 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :reintroducing the same trust problems.
< 1755009692 64636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I assume it's happening. Not sure whether it would hold up in court but who's gonna have standing to sue?
< 1755009736 108467 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"inserting itself into new versions of the same compiler, + any other compiler that it builds" => that's not even the biggest harm you could do. a proper virus could instead modify other executables that your user has write access to, even if they aren't created by this compiler.
< 1755009765 64684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Sure, you'd do that too.
< 1755009832 984453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the Reflections on Trusting Trust lecture's point was that just because you compiled the compiler from scratch doesn't mean your compiler is going to be fine.
< 1755009838 832931 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking of that sort of malware for reasons unrelated to AI
< 1755009870 865466 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So the self-insertion into compilers is a crucial part of persistence.
< 1755009897 43914 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*nod*
< 1755009928 133039 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the compiler needn't have to be involved, the malware part could come from a library that you're using, like a libc component.
< 1755009937 299008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least current AI probably isn't good enough to make that sort of malware – and even if it were, it would need either network connections or to store a local model in the executable, either of which I would expect to be detected
< 1755009964 593792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it probably isn't a realistic threat unless programs generally become so bloated that it becomes hard to tell whether they contain an AI or not
< 1755009972 543836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: okay, the point is that even if you audit all your source code... you may still not be fine
< 1755009985 616199 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: doesn't have to be in the executable itself, the executable could have just a stub that loads most of the other parts from data files that you aren't paying much attention to
< 1755010012 20258 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :disguised as a useful plugin system
< 1755010021 632224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yes but if the AI is virally inserting itself into other software it can't expect that other software to ship the same data files
< 1755010037 544467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recall a later paper on this, hmm... this one: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html
< 1755010050 827242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a program with a plugin system may not be suspicious, a compiler that unexpectedly adds a plugin system to its output that didn't appear in the source code would be very suspicious
< 1755010089 624874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the AI is there to circumvent Rice's theorem.
< 1755010119 744183 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"humans can probably recognize compilers and insert a backdoor, so an AI can do it too"
< 1755010163 755334 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old Schneier ♥
< 1755010186 324652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not Schneier's paper of course, but his summary is nice.
< 1755010227 87752 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, I think I have a different method of hiding and propagation in mind, not the classic compiler that inserts something into any executable, but I haven't tried to explain what it is. computers have enough large software components installed that you don't need to embed yourself into small progarms like /bin/cat .
< 1755010238 766647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, with a big software project it may be hard for humans to recognise whether it's a compiler, or in some cases even to define it
< 1755010244 725538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is Chrome (the browser) a compiler, for example?
< 1755010297 738453 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a compiler needn't be involved at all.
< 1755010318 2898 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chrome probably has a wasm compiler in it, but that's not really relevant.
< 1755010318 631176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I was responding to int-e, there, sorry
< 1755010330 508436 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Chrome is not not a compiler. )
< 1755010358 833423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: Yeah, for sure. I don't *like* any of the no-go theorems; that's just how linear algebra is. Similarly, I'm not a big fan of complex-valued Hilbert spaces, but it's the unique viable model.
< 1755010421 301495 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I dumped yet another one of my old TAS-theory projects onto the wiki. The [[Witsaff]] language is a proposed sanity-introducing device for computing properties of randomizers.
< 1755010425 361998 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean back when that idea came from, compilers were some of the largest programs on a system. that was still true around 2002 when I was making a better version of my 1.44 megabyte boot DOS floppy filled with the most useful utilities I could fit. there's a reason that one has a pascal compiler and not a C compiler. I would have wanted a C
< 1755010425 876730 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :compiler, but any C compiler I had access to wouldn't have fit.
< 1755010444 495566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether it's at all interesting to you, but it's yet another thing that I suspect TAS folks will want to see demo'd before they embrace it.
< 1755010506 891592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is it about randomizers or TASes? I am interested in both but consider them largely separate topics
< 1755010521 188308 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the compiler already has a linker that knows something about the executable format used on the platform, so back then it used to make sense to hide something malicious in a compiler.
< 1755010525 437844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the fun of a randomizer is in not knowing where the items are advance, doing it as a TAS completely defeats that
< 1755010544 351469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(really, a TAS could probably luck-manipulate the items into being where it wanted them)
< 1755010566 133791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am a very experienced watched of Metroid Prime 2 randomizers, to the extent that I can often work out the logic in my head (although I've never actually played the game)
< 1755010601 526546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The linked article, "a compositional theory of TAS", was written in the same week. Witsaff is for randomizers, composition is for TASs, and perhaps they separate into two distinct topics. But in my head it's all one big pile of goop.
< 1755010633 733722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, many of the randomizers have their logic files publicly available
< 1755010651 677429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The link is that many randomizer players use a "tracker", an assistive tool which decodes the logic and enumerates the remaining checks. Witsaff could be used to generate trackers.
< 1755010658 356317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it may make more sense to write an importer for them then try to use a new feature
< 1755010675 852434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, that doesn't even really count as tool-assisted speedrunning
< 1755010689 352137 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is so much less powerful than actual TAS tools are
< 1755010713 24340 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not quite good enough for Zelda 3 tourneys, but Zelda 3 randomizer play is expected to be tracker-less. I presume that Witsaff-generated trackers could be good enough to count as cheating.
< 1755010713 323797 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :What does TAS stand for? TASBot?
< 1755010718 847983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a big difference is that TAS tools are normally able to evaluate hypotheticals about what would happen if the runner gave certain inputs, without actually changing the state of the game
< 1755010732 783469 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: "Tool-assisted speedrunning". Any kind of speedrunning that is augmented beyond mere athletics.
< 1755010735 357802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: it's the same TAS as in TASbot: it stands for "tool-assisted speedrun" or "tool-assisted superplay"
< 1755010738 627652 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok
< 1755010739 470810 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks
< 1755010750 692966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I disagree with korvo's definition
< 1755010784 690728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos is a good introduciton
< 1755010828 561286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure, and that's fair. AFAICT your career in TAS has been about quickly putting the console into a particular state, and there's nothing wrong with that framing. I'm probably overly-focused on athletics here.
< 1755010830 607319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it links to https://tasvideos.org/Glossary#ToolAssistedSpeedrunTas which might be better
< 1755010870 352836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the sort of speedrun you're thinking of is almost universally considered to be not tool-assisted, even if there are separate programs helping
< 1755010890 648055 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the input is all done by humans in realtime, and there are no programs directly looking at the internal state of the game, then it's usually considered unassisted
< 1755010929 956346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :programs deducing the internal state of the game are normally accepted even in unassisted runs, as long as they don't interact with it directly (this is probably exploitable but I don't think I've seen any successful attempts to exploit it yet)
< 1755011003 849616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, a great example is Super Mario Bros. 1 – the pseudorandom number generator for that game is time-based, and the top runners have memorised all the possible random number patterns, so they can tell what their time is by looking at the (pseudorandom) actions of the final boss and knowing how it would act based on what their time is
< 1755011039 258801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...heh. infer random seed from world, use that to run a copy of the game in parallel...
< 1755011044 138788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(correction: not every possible one, just all the ones that could happen based on the plausible values for their finishing time)
< 1755011056 851688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://pellsson.github.io/
< 1755011081 118166 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"generally accepted" -- to me this sounds like the kind of thing that each speedrunning community comes to their own conclusion on.
< 1755011097 54801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, there is no official arbiter of speedrunning rules
< 1755011110 979523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are plenty of observable common patterns
< 1755011177 898346 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minecraft is very visible and has (reluctantly?) allowed "calculators" for predicting, uh whatever these underground things with Nether portals are called.
< 1755011191 297682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So that's a point in your favor that I'm aware of :P
< 1755011205 429643 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 => sure, but some trackers or autosplitters or practice tools do read (and sometimes modify) the internal state of old the game. For old console games this is done either through a custom cart or emulation. For new games they just modify the code of the game natively. more importantly, there's often a wide area of things that are too cheaty
< 1755011205 923919 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be allowed in real-time speedruns, but not powerful enough to count as tool-assisted.
< 1755011260 583095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the SWAGGINZZZ thing (which is what my recent link is about) was more impressive than running just one copy of the game, they had a huge cluster of computers rented and used it to fuzz an efficient path through the rest of the game
< 1755011371 789096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're right that an exception is often made for autotrackers
< 1755011388 795755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those don't technically need memory watch, they could be made to work via screenscraping instead
< 1755011538 976617 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that context matters. If I were able to infer the layout of important items based on the layout of unimportant items, then I'd be worried that that can enable cheating. Whether I do it by RE'ing the RNG or by constructively interfering probabilities shouldn't matter.
< 1755011563 58331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so this became something of a major issue in Slay the Spire, I believe
< 1755011564 73858 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But as somebody who is just awful, just truly garbage at Mario 1, I like your example.
< 1755011582 972001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which allows just that sort of inferring, except that it's sufficiently easy that you can do it in your head
< 1755011619 700786 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :an interesting example is the Spelunky 2 True Crown. the True Crown is one of the two joke secret items included in the game. its main drawback is that it forcibly teleports the player every 22 seconds, according to the in-game per-level timer. this teleport can kill you easily by teleporting you into a wall or ground. the True Crown is useful for
< 1755011620 201400 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :high-score runs, and those are slow, because they involve staying on most levels for a long time to get as much gold and gems as possible, including digging most of the terrain for gold and gems, and letting the ghost convert almost all gems into diamonds. so for a while when the game was new, some runners used a tool that made beeping sounds
< 1755011620 700391 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :shortly before the teleport. but since this was implemented as modifying the game to watch an internal value (rather than watching the timer display on screen), players decided that it's banned for unassisted records.
< 1755011633 38357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(tl;dr: it has multiple different RNGs, some handling important things and some handling unimportant things, but due to a bug they're all seeded with the same seed, so you can observe the random number pattern on one and it'll be repeated by the others)
< 1755011639 710300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: walk into a wall to advance the rng for free... pffft.
< 1755011664 510610 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yeah, pretty close to what I was thinking of
< 1755011733 478710 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiple RNGs used for different purposes accidentally seeded with the same seed? wow, I hadn't heard of that in a real context, only as a theoretical thing that you must avoid.
< 1755011787 325524 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755011802 340391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slay the Spire speedrunners eventually came up with a patch to seed the RNG properly
< 1755011819 819268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, may have been challenge runners rather than speedrunners, it's still much the same community
< 1755011820 457096 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, walk into a wall to advance the rng? that's not a thing in Slay the Spire, is it? walking to advance RNG is for nethack or Mario 64 or others
< 1755011835 72459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I think int-e was referencing NetHack
< 1755011835 970704 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Minecraft used to be worse. Back during the alpha/beta days, it used one global RNG for everything. Terrain generation wasn't deterministic at all. They now use algorithms that I introduced in Bravo which set up a per-world RNG and extrapolate from a single noise source, so that chunk order doesn't matter.
< 1755011846 911015 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Slay the Spire doesn't have a walk command
< 1755011884 890316 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :WHAT? why would speedrunners have to do the patching? wasn't that game still in active development at the time, with expansions or something, so the maintainer could fix the bug?
< 1755011911 689552 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or did they have to backport to an early version that was no longer maintained because that version was otherwise better?
< 1755011956 766704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: yeah I was still looking at the nethack link
< 1755012015 198453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I don't know the details
< 1755012052 192455 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: There's a link to compositional TAS here. To the extent that a "room" exists as a traversable space, it's a different "room" depending on global state like RNGs. But to the extent that multiple traversals don't actually use that state (say, they can walk or dash on a straight line every time), it's the same "room".
< 1755012057 666501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: is deterministic generation of chunk a necessary feature in a game like Minecraft?
< 1755012085 787683 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and in addition to Bowser's patterns, less importantly also the patterns of which height the hammer bros are
< 1755012095 626300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you only play it once anyway, right :P
< 1755012117 324702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: at least from my experience with NH4, it's an improvement to the game but not completely necessary: you need it to allow multiple players to play "in the same world" which is a feature that many people don't care about but some might
< 1755012153 855545 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah it will help with keeping multiplayer games consistent
< 1755012189 384928 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think for something like Minecraft or Factorio, you can have the server generate chunks whenever someone discovers them and send them to the clients, but deterministic generation is usually easier. Factorio has deterministic and reproducible lazy map generation.
< 1755012197 345402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :To be clear... I think personally I generally want this kind of determinism in the game.
< 1755012198 190809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :either multiplayer, or seeded singleplayer
< 1755012212 46456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But what I want isn't very objective ;)
< 1755012221 978372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I went to a lot of effort implementing it in NetHack4 because I thought it was a desirable feature
< 1755012290 177704 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: or the server could even just generate a fresh seed whenever a new map chunk is generated, or periodically for other random events in the game, and send it to the clients who compute the map generation with the same result as the server, and the frequent fresh reseeding would make this unpredictable.
< 1755012387 802083 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Multiplayer AceHack really, really pwnd 😌
< 1755012391 272364 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it's ... complicated. sometimes you want reproducibility, sometimes you don't because eg. you want to practice a section from a savestate and want the randomness to vary after loading the savestate, to train for a real run where you won't be able to predict the state of the randomness because it will change based on your previous inputs.
< 1755012428 485867 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :How did You do it again? With Threads? Or multiple Processes and IPC?
< 1755012444 236461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiple processes communicating primarily via the save file
< 1755012456 109279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a little bit of IPC involved for synchronisation but it mostly wasn't IPC
< 1755012459 796454 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you could also want reproducibility to organized versus matches in a tournament with the same seed.
< 1755012467 1907 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e, wib_jonas: For terrain generation, there's also accessibility concerns. We generally want rolling-hills terrain to be sufficiently smooth that the player can navigate it. This means that e.g. Minecraft terrain has to be generated from some reasonably-continuous noise rather than pure white noise.
< 1755012476 652096 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort of like duplicate bridge, but without the bridge.
< 1755012477 434815 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ic
< 1755012511 153043 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is a Bravo plugin that makes Pandora (from Avatar) floating islands in the sky, and even that plugin uses smoothed noise so that the islands are contiguous and form little spindly land bridges.
< 1755012530 286929 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah I imagine that is challenging if you want to make generation of chunks independent of the order they're generated in
< 1755012557 636725 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sure, but that doesn't really change much of this. it makes *lazy* terrain generation more difficult (meaning generating parts of a map on demand instead of the whole map in advance), but I don't think it makes determinism at all.
< 1755012559 848726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried implementing a maze generator like that once
< 1755012571 312994 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, that's not quite true
< 1755012583 147560 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. trying to make a perfect maze where there's exactly one path from any location to any other, but where the chunks could be generated in any order
< 1755012586 10997 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does impact determinism a bit, but I don't think that causes too much difficulties
< 1755012599 833292 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Oh! Of course, yes. Minecraft worlds are far too large to generate offline, or at least too large for me.
< 1755012605 219722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my solution was technically correct but the edges of the chunks were too obvious in the resulting maze
< 1755012625 107584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'm not sure how to fix it
< 1755012634 146026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, tricky
< 1755012653 210342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually, we could decompose this into a nicely multi-staged programming problem. We have a stage that defines the world, then a stage that randomizes the terrain, and finally a stage that generates the terrain. The generation can't change the randomization and is determined by it.
< 1755012694 396272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem collapses to that of generating a function from Z² to Z with exactly one local minimum
< 1755012717 80451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(then you can connect each location to a random adjacent location with lower value and you get a maze)
< 1755012780 515421 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755012947 219857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If the maze is hard enough then the obviousness could become a feature. One of Zenorogue's non-Euclidean games is "hyperrogue", like Nethack on hyperbolic tiling. The obviousness of the chunks helps the player figure out which region they are in or headed towards.
> 1755012972 899591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Flashgutten 5* 10New user account
< 1755013024 625821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I have been working on a HyperRogue variant/derivative for a few years now
< 1755013030 139756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm very familiar with it
< 1755013036 371919 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, TIL. Good times.
< 1755013084 810096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the official version balances very unlike NetHack and is much closer to a puzzle collection than a roguelike – part of my goal with the variant is to move the balance point more towards that of a traditional roguelike)
< 1755013183 738495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, with the exception of Crossroads and theoretically Ocean, your actions in one land have only minimal effects on how the game plays unless you get at least 25 treasures in a land, which is nearly always an incorrect decision given that optimal strategy typically involves getting only 10 from the lands you visit
< 1755013230 833461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the game decomposes into a puzzle gauntlet of "nine lands, Hell, Orb of Yendor" with almost all the puzzles being unrelated to each other, you just have to solve them in order
< 1755013383 192973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and when you realise that, playing the game as intended doesn't make much sense any more, you may as well play the puzzles individually)
< 1755013403 694157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the big ideas behind my variant was to swap the 10 and 25
< 1755013414 803953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which really changes the way the game plays
< 1755013523 784993 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a big increase in difficulty, but I can understand the motivation.
< 1755013531 456416 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Can You please give an Example? You mean You should also potentially get the BoH or Shield of Reflection from MinesEnd or Vlad or Jubilex?
< 1755013565 55749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: a) I agree, and b) I am trying to balance around it (but the game was almost certainly too easy for experienced players beforehand)
< 1755013599 107339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I'm not sure I understand the question – it looks like you're referring to something I said earlier but I'm not sure what
< 1755013626 31495 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I probably did not understand Your 10/25 Swap properly at all
< 1755013638 163268 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Treasures versus Lands
< 1755013639 518368 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: I was talking about HyperRogue rather than NetHack – it won't make much sense in the context of the wrong game
< 1755013645 724845 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, ic
< 1755013657 535512 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION does not know HyperRogue yet
< 1755013706 2871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lands in HyperRogue are like branches in NetHack, treasures are scattered all around the floor of lands (each land has a different treasure) and make the land they're found in more dangerous, but also work towards completing the game, and can have an influence on other lands sometimes
< 1755013737 852384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so gameplay in HyperRogue at the moment is normally about entering a land, picking up the minimum number of treasures you need to work towards completing the game, then leaving because the land is dangerous now
< 1755013748 751351 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok
< 1755013795 180894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in vanilla HyperRogue you need 10 treasures each from 9 different lands to unlock the main milestone towards game completion, but need 25 treasures from the same land to begin influencing most other lands (and even then the influence is usually quite minor)
< 1755013812 288838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the lands almost play out as completely unrelated
< 1755013828 123191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the treasures are the only thing that defines the character – you don't have upgradeable equipment or levels or max HP
< 1755013891 93205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I only play HyperRogue in winter because it has an immediate mode UI and I don't like how much electricity that uses
> 1755013914 904240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163320&oldid=163315 5* 03Flashgutten 5* (+264) 10/* Introductions */
< 1755013922 397994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in winter, the electricity is less wasted because the waste heat goes towards heating the house)
< 1755013951 113480 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Flashgutten
< 1755013958 351189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`welcome Flashgutten
< 1755013962 617247 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Flashgutten: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: I run my washing machine mostly during the day, while nobody is home, between 15:00 and 18:15, because at night the noise from the machine would bother the neighbors. ← the report actually mentioned that as a possibility
> 1755018219 403140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Flashgutten14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163324 5* 03Flashgutten 5* (+2108) 10I am flashgutten
< 1755018243 342622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was planning to write my own placement algorithm, that took such a description as input and output a set of item locations
< 1755018254 269606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with a bias towards trying to produce interesting situations
< 1755018319 659820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I tried following Super Metroid randomizers before moving onto Metroid Prime 2, but the placements in Super Metroid just usually aren't very interesting and the strategies often end up fairly formulaic – Metroid Prime 2 somehow ends up being exceedingly good for randomizers, I think mostly because its map is designed as a series of interlocking loops and that gives a high potential for interesting paths0
> 1755018379 579701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163325&oldid=163320 5* 03Aquateraneal 5* (+159) 10
> 1755018468 288387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aquateraneal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163326 5* 03Aquateraneal 5* (+13) 10Created page with "i is a potato"
< 1755018593 773568 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, the Super Metroid community is doing map randomizers now. It's one of those games where I think Witsaff could help generate optimal routes for major/minor, Chozo, etc.
< 1755018631 357011 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But map randomization is apparently a very tricky computational problem. They pre-generate like 10k maps per season and then generate seeds upon a randomly-chosen map. The birthday paradox means that occasionally runners will recognize maps or submaps.
< 1755018663 233860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I suppose it's a special case of But Is It Art? and not obviously a special case of anything saner, so it's not surprising that it's hard, but I'd have expected it to be more like Wang tiling.
< 1755018668 957259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the metroid prime series once had a sort-of working map randomizer, but the maps didn't connect up at all, they were just trees
< 1755018702 17225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think it got abandoned, eventually
< 1755019261 769062 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that Prime 1's unique approach to level-building primitives is part of that story. It's not nicely laid out on a grid either.
< 1755019294 881805 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: where Super Metroid randomizer gets interesting is that, at least in SMRAT and similar settings, you can gain a large edge if you know the randomizer logic well and use it to predict where items can be. this can get surprisingly deep and some players are very good in it, though the basics are easy to understand. it is kind of mind bending because you have to keep track of two different logics:
< 1755019300 872189 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one is what player tricks the randomizer allows when it makes sure that the map can be completed, which in the case of SMRAT is only very basic intended gameplay tactics, and what tricks you are willing to do in the run.
< 1755019334 818901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, this comes up in Metroid Prime 2, too
< 1755019356 737219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm better at it than some of the actual runners (although it's probably easier when you don't have to think about actually playing the game at the same time)
< 1755019432 81543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like the Varia suit can't be in places accessible only through heated rooms except for one, because Varia protects you from them, and there are even fewer valid areas for the Gravity suit, and the suits are the most important items so you want to find them efficiently.
< 1755019435 189937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MP2 tricks are really interesting because there are some tricks that are very general but also very slow
< 1755019462 37592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I used to watch a lot of SMRAT for a while, but I no longer watch them much
< 1755019483 938750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although out-of-bounds tricks were banned in one of the most recent tournaments because they were making things a bit too repetitive
< 1755019505 728758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and some people were so good at them that they were less of an interesting tradeoff
> 1755020039 66211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163327&oldid=163290 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+3) 10
< 1755020364 963090 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755020396 360378 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"+127 Magicbane" hehe, that's a weird idea, even in context of what you'd do with random manipulation to allow an easy ascension
< 1755020541 806881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like going too close to +127 / -128 for fear of char overflow messing up calculations somewhere
< 1755020648 616138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd around 120 scrolls of enchant weapon, which is doable with farming, and for most scrolls you need to pass an 1/n probability check to enchant further from enchantment n, and a 1/3 probability check to make the weapon survive. I didn't even remember the first of those, because you never enchant weapons so high that it matters.
< 1755020723 149757 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the second check is done even if the first check fails IIUC
< 1755020749 241594 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that's quite reasonable
< 1755020816 608709 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you knew the rng state wouldn't you also just know when the next attack would overflow?)
< 1755020846 442948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just that, if you curbstomp the game by manipulating randomness, a +127 Magicbane doesn't sound like the most efficient thing to do
< 1755020887 297555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: yes, that's what SWAGGINZZZ effectively did
< 1755020892 909416 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, exactly. This is why Witsaff has the $ technique blocks. The idea is that *if* a player can perform a certain technique, then the tracker can indicate what's logically available *for them*, while still predicting probabilities based on a pre-trained matrix where the technique is disabled.
< 1755020940 994609 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This leads to a tracker that can predict a sequence break, more or less. Like, predicting multiple out-of-logic checks which each have high probability to enable the next check.
< 1755020968 831522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: my method of handling that in my own version was for technique requirements to be treated similarly to item requirements, needing 25 missiles to get through a door is similar to needing 3 skill in standable terrain (at least if missiles are easy to recharge)
< 1755021009 473917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can treat them the same way in the implementation and just tweak its knowledge of the default "starting items" to control what tricks you're able to do
< 1755021227 957639 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, 90 wishes from just the fountain, or are there wands in between? can you get multiple wishes from a single fountain?
< 1755021277 952206 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1755021292 38018 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755021378 736114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can get multiple wishes from a fountain
< 1755021392 663316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the odds are very low, but that doesn't bother a TAS
< 1755021485 374186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you don't need to do anything special between the wishes, like sacrifice to regain alignment or luck?
< 1755021488 378168 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1755021494 589140 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never try to go for fountain wishes
< 1755021504 260668 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't know their rules
< 1755021508 588571 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I barely even remember how thrones work
< 1755021601 768772 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, how does "Phase-jump to priest" on Astral work? does that mean polymorphing to a Xorn?
< 1755021613 648116 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait
< 1755021619 328040 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this isn't Astral, it's the Sanctum
< 1755021768 461115 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :um, I can't get the dumplog from the link in the article
< 1755021796 398948 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but also wow
< 1755021992 784248 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://archive.alt.org/dumplog/SWAGGINZZZ/1546732576.nh361.txt works
> 1755021999 818842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07H14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163328&oldid=121014 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Implementation */ mor golf
< 1755022014 60350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the usual dumpfile search tools can't find it either
< 1755022054 283580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :2087 turns
< 1755022075 857776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ascending while hallucinating is something special, especially because I don't think the character had knowledge that that was the correct altar (the player did via the RNG sync)
< 1755022078 110317 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Flashgutten
< 1755022401 384824 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't the game tell you the name of the god if you're standing on the high altar, even when hally?
< 1755022487 790138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: possibly but I can't tell from the log, it didn't nearlook
< 1755022496 990675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think you normally just get a hallu god
< 1755022522 8975 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1755022543 383869 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you try to sacrifice an ordinary monster to find out?
< 1755022594 932804 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why are there so many "poobah" in the log? is that a hallu thing?
< 1755022608 185776 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those priests or angels?
< 1755022627 19170 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't be angels, Moloch doesn't have angels
< 1755022637 545756 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1755022683 678631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :priests, I think, and yes a hallu thing
< 1755022782 654698 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a "The poobah of your Friend the Computer" and "The high poobah of the Central Bank of Yendor", so you must be right about randomized god names
< 1755022806 24927 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that must be new after 3.4.3
< 1755023979 312829 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the two different brands of liquid soap end up forming distinct layers when I refill. the better soap seems to be heavier. I wonder if I should do experiments to find out if it's the better soap that's unusually heavy, or the worse soap is unusually light, or it's not a density difference but some weird effect from refilling (unlikely).
> 1755024559 843912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* 10New user account
> 1755024975 934569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163329&oldid=163325 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+198) 10
> 1755025117 482682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163330&oldid=163329 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+52) 10
> 1755025195 246981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HAPPA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163331&oldid=155899 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10
< 1755025692 801851 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755025973 492360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163332 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+136) 10Created page with "Hello. I create the dumbest esolangs, and my username pretty much says it all. ===List of my esolangs=== [[]]
[[]]
[[]]
..."
< 1755026075 247320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, claiming to create the dumbest esolangs is a pretty bold claim
< 1755026079 265578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some really dumb esolangs out there
< 1755026561 178591 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing
< 1755026590 337486 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755026794 419782 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, this is such a tease and letdown. new CodeParade video, "palindromes" in the title. in the opening he reads a phrase that clearly wants to be a palindrome because it's meaningful backwards. at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap08_AGPh8s the palindromes says "DNA wastewater cessation", which backwards starts with "Noita's secret". but the video says NOTHING AT ALL about the long unsolved secret
< 1755026800 449149 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :message in Noita!
< 1755028264 132796 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_testing
< 1755028302 542216 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755028310 959732 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1755028316 367075 :DOS_User_testing!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755028378 912982 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
> 1755029789 65380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163333 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+48) 10Created page with "Describe me and add ~~~~ after."
> 1755029819 848702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163334&oldid=163333 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+6) 10
> 1755030480 644728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163335 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+102) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} =Short Description= The same [[bf]] but without "<",">",",", only "+","-","." but "." here "A""
> 1755031731 829232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Insulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163336&oldid=163317 5* 03Insulation 5* (+216) 10
< 1755032240 834388 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755032245 71473 :oren!~oren@ec2-44-201-23-133.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755032260 427020 :oren!~oren@ec2-44-201-23-133.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN #esolangs oren :Oren Watson
< 1755032491 166571 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755033110 619685 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755033529 427455 :Flashgutten!~Flashgutt@h-37-123-137-62.A163.priv.bahnhof.se QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755037391 656800 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1755037531 880403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163337&oldid=163247 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+7) 10
> 1755037597 32818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163338&oldid=163128 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+221) 10
> 1755037683 795911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:APGsembly14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163339 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+279) 10Created page with "Does this have input/output? ~~~~"
> 1755037768 521962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zowepsilon 5* 10New user account
< 1755039350 136496 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1755039817 773686 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755041462 485282 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1755042370 993169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163340&oldid=163316 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+66) 10
> 1755043875 49304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163341&oldid=163303 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+241) 10/* Example code */
> 1755044295 500687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163342&oldid=163298 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+135) 10
< 1755046226 57534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755047743 145386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Placeholding14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163343&oldid=149498 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+108) 10
< 1755048696 910431 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755050387 556048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755053357 227557 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1755053884 122116 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For random number seed, I only have 64-bits of entropy for random seed in Super ZZ Zero, but should I change it to 96-bits? Currently it is set up using the current date/time
> 1755053957 372698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Placeholding14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163344&oldid=163343 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+11) 10accessibility
< 1755055182 302497 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Map randomization is something that might be worth to be considered too
< 1755064777 778622 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: no, you should change it to 256 bits. 96 bits is still too small.
< 1755064840 675424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I meant to say at least 192 bits, and the 96 was a thinko
< 1755066343 499291 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755067558 14491 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755067833 529412 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755069207 959250 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755072231 858556 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755073063 644432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hny02114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163345&oldid=79745 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1337) 10/* Interpreters */ oh god why is so big
> 1755073137 449627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hny02114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163346&oldid=163345 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* Interpreter */ oops forgot to split
> 1755075008 695332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163347&oldid=161288 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+85) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1755075969 999024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163348&oldid=163347 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-85) 10
< 1755077070 235459 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755077609 917638 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755080387 229515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163349&oldid=94059 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+57) 10/* Others */
> 1755080819 379214 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163350 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+2067) 10TODO appropriate category
> 1755081171 324371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163351&oldid=163350 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+15) 10+cat
> 1755081216 774613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163352&oldid=163351 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+36) 10
< 1755081381 70752 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1755081449 526555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI/str2kemuri.rb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163353&oldid=163352 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+38) 10+back
> 1755081766 610368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163354&oldid=163349 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+101) 10/* External resources */ +1
> 1755081781 37413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KEMURI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163355&oldid=163354 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (-2) 10/* External resources */
< 1755082805 727075 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755082929 21845 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755083655 408589 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755084197 173522 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755085276 485079 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1755086900 97693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tercet14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163356 5* 03Insulation 5* (+3665) 10Creattttiiooonn
> 1755087030 308973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Insulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163357&oldid=163336 5* 03Insulation 5* (+11) 10
< 1755088325 544702 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755088334 454657 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1755089453 196209 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755090641 858538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755092972 334623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163358&oldid=163332 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+9) 10/* List of my esolangs */
< 1755093312 726403 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.torshavn: points -3.24, score 17.62, rank 24/47
< 1755094055 811489 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
< 1755094526 11250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, a BF Joust submission that scored significantly well on the leaderboard
< 1755094582 28357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and appears to be designed specifically to beat two_thirds (which previously beat everything)
< 1755095039 333964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, yes, has decoy/offset sizes designed specifically to beat it
< 1755098859 995080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!bfjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
< 1755098866 881115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
< 1755098867 261489 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.two_thirds: points 18.55, score 49.54, rank 2/47 (--)
< 1755100583 339972 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755100605 9269 :Cogburnd02!~bleh@66.234.88.172 JOIN #esolangs * :I'm a NetManage Chameleon user!
< 1755100626 436644 :Cogburnd02!~bleh@66.234.88.172 CHGHOST ~bleh :user/Cogburnd02
< 1755100768 491795 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755102196 201646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
< 1755102196 573252 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.two_thirds: points 19.40, score 51.97, rank 2/47 (--)
< 1755102310 539007 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755102697 650737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust two_thirds http://nethack4.org/pastebin/two_thirds.bfjoust
< 1755102697 909567 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.two_thirds: points 19.43, score 51.92, rank 2/47 (--)
< 1755102737 412016 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's the Pareto frontier, I guess. Was it just a matter of adding another special case?
< 1755104146 807295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: actually no – most of the changes helped against other programs too
< 1755104203 674433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a heuristic for distinguishing between flag repair and decoys that is probably overfitted, and quite a lot of the decoy sizes are probably also a bit overfitted, but the changes make sense regardless of opponent
< 1755104239 878190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, I didn't contest the decoy size creep, I focused on cases where I could win more legitimately
< 1755104348 33540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in particular, the "fast rush or short tape" case which is important enough that I mentally acronym it to FROST – I put additional effort into that one, because the opponent has fast-rush-like behaviour on medium tapes)
< 1755104672 603458 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755105319 956319 :Cogburnd02!~bleh@user/Cogburnd02 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755105543 29628 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Makes sense. Starcraft has a similar overlap; on a too-large map, it's not possible to rush up against your enemy's position quickly because they are too far away.
< 1755105709 122468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – the main surprising thing is that it took so many years for us to realise that programs should have entirely different behaviour based on whether the enemy is nearby or further away
< 1755105751 862184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it may have been harder to figure that out in the past, when optimal strategy was less standardised
< 1755106061 274047 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In both Starcraft and chess, there's been a long-standing focus on openings: ordering of the first few choices, development, access, fortress, etc.
< 1755106083 443587 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that might just be because a good opening is a general-purpose strategy that tends to do well on average.
< 1755106129 657423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In chess, we can feel the combinatorial pressure of another possibility: a bad opening might foreclose a victory later.
< 1755106150 782612 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's also because openings can happen often enough to be worth learning – especially in Starcraft, where they only have a couple of variations depending on what the opponent does
< 1755106281 477121 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755106536 51607 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-45-229.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1755106970 400996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Even then, against some specific opponents, we have to "pull the boys": halt all resource-gathering and send the peons to fight. Even before making the first peon, in some Starcraft 2 scenarios!
< 1755107578 679183 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755108783 551010 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755108792 624102 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1755108939 629987 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755109243 898351 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755109459 17381 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755109548 635330 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1755109662 297234 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755110028 856304 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755110295 711661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163359&oldid=161440 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+14) 10/* my own esolangs */
< 1755111908 868464 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1755114133 123331 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755114815 446726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163360&oldid=163335 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+85) 10
< 1755114986 509287 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1755115008 477484 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1755116109 980898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xtrod14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163361&oldid=162506 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+95) 10Reintroduced the examples section whose incipial membership is realized in a one-time cat program.
< 1755116132 691649 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755116300 77991 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755116511 30310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Xtrod14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163362 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1355) 10Created the discussion page for the language Xtrod in order to inquire into its incrementation and decrementation capabilities.
< 1755116789 63620 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-45-229.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1755117043 656972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163363&oldid=163360 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+466) 10/* Esolang Overview */
< 1755119400 424857 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755119842 835394 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1755120603 404498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Xtrod14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163364&oldid=163362 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+413) 10
< 1755120714 716233 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755120840 769396 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755121147 74781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755122024 500714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163365 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+1086) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''Traxler''' is a 2D stack based esolang which was made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Note== When you write the name of this language (traxler), it is lowercase unless it's the first word of the sentence. ==General rules== In traxler, you are required t
> 1755122073 543788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163366&oldid=162890 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+16) 10
> 1755122101 351232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163367&oldid=163365 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
> 1755122197 310361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163368&oldid=161756 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+167) 10/* Traxler */
< 1755122933 166693 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1755124525 8876 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1755125151 581321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163369&oldid=163363 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+396) 10
> 1755125249 365190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163370&oldid=163369 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+1) 10
< 1755126363 462715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1755126437 801861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163371&oldid=163367 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+395) 10/* Examples: */
> 1755126529 611491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163372&oldid=163371 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+215) 10/* Commands */
> 1755127046 17724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163373&oldid=163370 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+636) 10
> 1755127053 653278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163374&oldid=162781 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+394) 10
> 1755127671 292311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163375&oldid=163373 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* Official Interpreter(IDE, Writed on python.) */
> 1755129281 143952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163376&oldid=163375 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+308) 10
> 1755129395 283144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163377&oldid=163376 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+17) 10/* Hello, Vnqkc */
< 1755129656 594834 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755129832 402709 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755130846 26014 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755130898 443869 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755131095 243577 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1755131129 415118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163378&oldid=163377 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+154) 10/* Implementations */
< 1755131684 737450 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755131869 373899 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755131892 1095 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755131926 160727 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755134068 889850 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1755134197 788850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rollover14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163379&oldid=159417 5* 03Scratch Fakemon 5* (+278) 10
< 1755135840 809653 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1755137392 839091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jan jelo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163380&oldid=150984 5* 03Jan jelo 5* (+1) 10fix a typo
< 1755138162 3926 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755138272 661765 :sprout!~sprout@2a02-a448-3a80-0-c61c-b515-5509-58e7.fixed6.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs sprout :sprout
< 1755141274 837738 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755141348 978811 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755143275 644350 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1755144947 941314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163381&oldid=157862 5* 03Corbin 5* (+235) 10/* Introduction */ Work an example.
< 1755146023 681724 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1755146877 813481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163382&oldid=163381 5* 03Corbin 5* (+753) 10/* Free monoids */ Fix up grammar. Add notation. This is *not* the standard definition; it's simpler!
> 1755147514 500405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163383&oldid=162624 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+727) 10Added Pointing example
> 1755147857 904586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163384&oldid=163383 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+120) 10/* Pointing */
< 1755147916 766233 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
> 1755148558 717559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163385&oldid=163382 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1288) 10The rank-simplification game we've been playing is NP-complete.
< 1755149600 113370 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.28 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8
> 1755151768 569933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163386&oldid=163385 5* 03Corbin 5* (+877) 10Mention commutative monoids. We'll want the lemma: r(X, A*) = 1 iff A* is commutative. For example, this implies that BF's rank is at least 2.
< 1755152251 573739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, one mystery solved. The rank of a monoid doesn't make sense as a standalone concept. Instead, a subset of a (free?) monoid has a rank relative to that monoid.
< 1755152935 525966 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755153604 823985 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755153722 207799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1755154331 757969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163387&oldid=163386 5* 03Corbin 5* (+600) 10/* Rank */ Facts about rank.
< 1755155349 640455 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755157631 978242 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755157963 115411 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.28 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1755158131 430762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755161480 667231 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755161864 473531 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1755162188 810587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Input hello world or else:14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163388&oldid=138760 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-8) 10/* Python */ mimmimi
< 1755162565 992816 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755163385 725941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163389&oldid=163327 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+3) 10
> 1755163667 872487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163390&oldid=163284 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+9) 10
< 1755164536 320905 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1755165122 331044 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755165845 136829 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755169774 199864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163391&oldid=163378 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+154) 10
< 1755169805 181413 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1755169844 734082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163392&oldid=163391 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+19) 10/* Why "Dumbascii"? */
< 1755170601 689046 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755170646 376785 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1755170653 188206 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755170730 72666 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1755172317 900394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163393&oldid=148971 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+38) 10
> 1755172462 14934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!English/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163394&oldid=141379 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+294) 10/* A chatbot that uses GPT-4o */
> 1755173834 126517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163395&oldid=161466 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+54) 10/* My targets */
< 1755174724 596219 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755175332 710876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* 10New user account
< 1755175446 525987 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755176012 118060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163396&oldid=163330 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+247) 10
> 1755176046 207928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163397&oldid=163396 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+0) 10
> 1755176406 480028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SzszszszszszszsZ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163398 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+607) 10Created page with "Hi! My name is SzszszszszszszsZ. (case insensitive, you can shuffle my username whatever you like). Im from malaysia Anyways thats all ''PS: -[--->+<]>------.-.--------.[-->+<]>---.++++[->++<]>.+++++++.+[->++++<]>+.>+[--->++<]>.+[--->+<]
< 1755176625 460412 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755176786 473639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1755178068 523173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755178960 682837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163399&oldid=163387 5* 03Corbin 5* (+56) 10/* Rank */ Add a corollary which seems like it might apply in some cases.
< 1755179064 977038 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I apologize for my attitude several weeks ago. I didn't understand the maths and I was taking it out on fellow editors. For contrition I'm finishing up the work.
< 1755179094 812304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the more abstract an esolang gets, the harder it is to understand
< 1755179276 519105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, when it comes to TCness proofs, often the trick is to work out the best way to think about the language in order to make it concrete
< 1755179292 92872 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Three Star Programmer was much easier to understand when I figured out how to get rid of some of the stars, for example
< 1755179315 171989 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because then you have things that consistently work like variables
< 1755179329 98339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can only increment them and reading them is awkward, but at least they're easy to reason about)
> 1755179598 150636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WikiFreak14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163400 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+3401) 10Created page with "''Note: This language was developed as a filler project and is not intended to be taken seriously.'' '''WikiFreak''' is an output-only esoteric programming language (more precisely, an output/output-only language, as it does not accept input) created by [[Use
> 1755179618 505161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WikiFreak14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163401&oldid=163400 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (-78) 10
< 1755180117 115172 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1755180176 136942 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how related is the i/d machine, or to brainfuck on a tape of booleans that you can only increment, never decrement, and no overflow?
< 1755180195 863523 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :all three of these have a memory that is writable only in one way, sort of like paper with pen if you don't have correction fluid
< 1755180206 323888 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or wastebasket)
< 1755180229 646802 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with additional restrictions in all three cases
< 1755180605 121489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: the I/D machine is pretty similar to Three Star Programmer in terms of how you program it
< 1755180651 298984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main difference is that the I/D machine doesn't have any hardcoded addresses, so you have to keep various constant addresses around within the easily addressable portion of memory in order to avoid getting lost
< 1755180668 556133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Three Star Programmer you can hardcode addresses, so doing that is easier, but program initialisation is more complicated
< 1755180691 96717 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Permanent BF is much easier to write in because the control flow is much more powerful
< 1755180965 541617 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755181050 398861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye fungot
< 1755181178 923601 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1755181227 212796 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1755181236 189181 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome back, fungot.
< 1755181236 702798 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ plt-scheme/ fnord/ fnord
> 1755181371 642552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163402 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+393) 10add example with no halting symbols
> 1755181861 435512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163403&oldid=163402 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+13) 10fix my comment's formatting
< 1755183152 44137 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755183761 188826 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755184664 967319 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755184717 957451 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755184824 50973 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755185047 488168 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
< 1755185185 900923 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755185486 413176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1755185593 465924 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755186205 651197 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755187903 280028 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755189232 523715 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755190292 266364 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755191109 976952 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755192527 948602 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night Folks
< 1755192796 160869 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1755193236 254581 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755194551 294478 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
> 1755194931 731528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163404&oldid=163399 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1843) 10Add a section on presentations. Define simple translations.
< 1755195137 724620 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755196672 238008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163405&oldid=163392 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+143) 10
< 1755196937 53003 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755198508 365430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163406&oldid=163405 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+83) 10
> 1755201044 74439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07999914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163407 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+449) 10Created page with "{{wip}} '''[[9999]]''' is joke [[esoteric_programming_language|esoteric programming language]] which working in 9999 year. =implementation= ==[https://www.python.org/ Python]== import datetime from datetime import datetime now = datetime.now() if now.year
< 1755201179 159143 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755201472 765964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07999914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163408&oldid=163407 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+527) 10
> 1755201507 507561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07999914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163409&oldid=163408 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-1) 10/* Python */
> 1755201893 763348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163410&oldid=163404 5* 03Corbin 5* (+676) 10/* Rank */ Generalize to let X be big, not covered in Neraud 1992. Clean up corollaries.
> 1755201922 771019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07999914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163411&oldid=163409 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+1) 10
< 1755201927 16482 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201927 376402 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201927 426882 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201927 461127 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201927 904108 :molson!~molson@24.124.54.137 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 4488 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 412323 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 582859 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 691325 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 804647 :casuallyblue!~weechat@fsf/member/casuallyblue QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 839142 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201928 873540 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 75450 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 170090 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 550619 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 585443 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 858672 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 921329 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201929 955779 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755201930 167675 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755202016 477699 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1755202077 564223 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1755202077 597852 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1755202077 597925 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1755202077 597962 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1755202077 597987 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs voxpelli :Pelle Wessman
< 1755202077 598006 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1755202077 598029 :casuallyblue!~weechat@fsf/member/casuallyblue JOIN #esolangs casuallyblue :weechat
< 1755202077 598052 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling JOIN #esolangs laerling :lærling
< 1755202077 598069 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1755202143 324526 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755202143 358908 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA JOIN #esolangs JAA :JustAnotherArchivist
< 1755202143 359013 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1755202143 359080 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1755202143 359119 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
< 1755202143 359150 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1755202143 359258 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755202143 359300 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755202143 359331 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
< 1755202155 335041 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp JOIN #esolangs sftp :sftp
> 1755202404 591622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07999914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163412&oldid=163411 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+4) 10/* implementation */
< 1755202977 400158 :casuallyblue!~weechat@fsf/member/casuallyblue QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1755203289 265094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cat Program (language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163413&oldid=138056 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+82) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1755203331 249813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QuakeScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163414 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+5120) 10Created page with "QuakeScript is a language made by WoodyFan3412
in this language there are commands, they're alot like the commands in games like half-life == Syntax == the first "word" is the command name, anything after that are the command arguments
quotation mark
> 1755203409 324330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:QuakeScriptScreenshot.png10]]"
> 1755203431 728557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163416&oldid=163306 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+42) 10/* Projects that i've made: */
> 1755203797 316367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163417&oldid=163416 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+294) 10/* Project Descriptions */
> 1755204045 999484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:GunSide.png10]]"
> 1755204101 509185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163419&oldid=163417 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+117) 10
< 1755204567 139658 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad02:3d09:c5b5:9908 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755205307 859887 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755207792 540631 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755208481 678228 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl JOIN #esolangs * :user3456
< 1755208490 876292 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755208505 378085 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl NICK :Guest2884
< 1755208690 804608 :Guest2884!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl CHGHOST user3456 :user/user3456
< 1755208727 609336 :Guest2884!user3456@user/user3456 NICK :user3456
< 1755209496 63972 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1755210586 223445 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-45-229.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1755211652 540390 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755211665 624978 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1755212882 76349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QuakeScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163420&oldid=163414 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10/* Math */ Fixed Math
> 1755213042 391577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163421&oldid=163372 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+0) 10
> 1755213084 365844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Traxler14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163422&oldid=163421 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-2) 10
< 1755215340 484689 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-45-229.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755215827 884210 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1755217240 528634 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What random number generator should I change it to, to use 256-bits?
< 1755219921 956953 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755226021 817946 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1755226447 919672 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755226612 200270 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1755226634 709274 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755226654 748004 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755226662 699740 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1755226730 764944 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755226801 975918 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755227854 469212 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
> 1755229232 185644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163423&oldid=163279 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+184) 10
> 1755229777 551122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Plasmatoroid 5* 10New user account
< 1755229832 532650 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755229885 247038 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1755231424 398208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163424&oldid=163423 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+1985) 10
> 1755234365 533472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monoid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163425&oldid=163410 5* 03Corbin 5* (+325) 10/* NP-completeness */ Special case.
< 1755236146 771573 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755236258 592237 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1755236258 634869 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1755236610 887176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Picofuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163426&oldid=148158 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1792) 10/* Group formulation */ The group/monoid approach won't work, at least not over this simple relation.
< 1755236971 30773 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1755237260 436875 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755238264 224603 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755238962 753238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/How Alternating Checkerboard rule emulate work14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163427 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+64) 10.
< 1755241695 820044 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755241801 564588 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755242733 479010 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755242956 213663 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755243025 69841 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1755243565 978757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Useless 5* 10New user account
< 1755244635 546757 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1755245274 787550 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755246360 421424 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755246814 616157 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1755247839 212613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163428 5* 03None1 5* (+1315) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} {{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[Chicken]]}} It's also known as ccc:cc. Everyone knows that Chicken is inspired by [http://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf the article with only Chicken and punctuations]. This language is more similar to
< 1755248327 865173 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fourth wiki entry starting with chicken (fewer than I was expecting)
< 1755248727 207127 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think newer games have moved to cryptographic random generators (e.g. SHA256) if truly unpredictable numbers are needed, like in PvP. They need more cpu cycles though.
> 1755248958 889092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Radson 5* 10New user account
< 1755249066 842862 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if complete unpredictability isn't needed, I doubt that 256 bits is necessary)
> 1755250106 939627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Psuranas 5* 10New user account
> 1755250667 674787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163429&oldid=163428 5* 03None1 5* (+179) 10
< 1755251312 242275 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755252661 604446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163430&oldid=163429 5* 03None1 5* (+11808) 10
> 1755252690 683676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163431&oldid=163390 5* 03None1 5* (+47) 10/* C */
> 1755252715 603053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163432&oldid=161166 5* 03None1 5* (+48) 10
> 1755252742 40470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163433&oldid=163430 5* 03None1 5* (-3) 10
> 1755252752 173092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163434&oldid=163433 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10/* =Empty sentences */
> 1755252775 936368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163435&oldid=137156 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10
> 1755252824 325650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163436&oldid=163434 5* 03None1 5* (+113) 10
> 1755252943 14065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ccc:cc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163437 5* 03None1 5* (+54) 10Redirected page to [[Chicken chicken chicken: chicken chicken]]
> 1755255775 797823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163438&oldid=163406 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10
> 1755255972 157602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Sharp flat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163439&oldid=163228 5* 03None1 5* (+347) 10
> 1755256257 165503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163440&oldid=163389 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+577) 10
> 1755256335 582820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07^14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163441&oldid=153855 5* 03None1 5* (+29) 10/* Interpreter */ be more specific
> 1755256353 965061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163442&oldid=163440 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+26) 10
> 1755256362 911206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163443&oldid=163442 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+2) 10
> 1755256374 297683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163444&oldid=163443 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-1) 10
> 1755256511 156917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163445&oldid=163444 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-7) 10
> 1755256524 106968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163446&oldid=163445 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-9) 10
< 1755257070 378693 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1755258310 300552 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755260268 724309 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755260334 812649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hello3782 5* 10New user account
> 1755260410 222128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163447&oldid=163397 5* 03Hello3782 5* (+236) 10
< 1755260605 631920 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1755260801 585442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163448 5* 03Hello3782 5* (+177) 10yes
> 1755260837 737083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hello378214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163449 5* 03Hello3782 5* (+22) 10Created page with "Hi this is me [[C]]"
> 1755260859 399878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C flat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163450 5* 03Hello3782 5* (+18) 10Redirected page to [[C]]
< 1755261761 955946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755261848 414383 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755261883 386646 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1755261893 485045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hajunsheng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163451&oldid=162183 5* 03Hajunsheng 5* (-149) 10
> 1755261914 317989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163452&oldid=161446 5* 03Hajunsheng 5* (-20) 10
< 1755262244 962147 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1755262598 62637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust champions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163453&oldid=150009 5* 03Ais523 5* (+152) 10/* 2025 */ mention that later versions of backstop changed the strategy slightly
> 1755262654 507057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust champions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163454&oldid=163453 5* 03Ais523 5* (+2) 10/* 2025 */ fix thinko in my previous edit
> 1755264403 800122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed/Examples14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163455&oldid=155227 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+23) 10
< 1755264432 270564 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1755266271 98537 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1755267937 173822 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755268795 725652 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Quit: I use ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755268825 954840 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl JOIN #esolangs * :user3456
< 1755268849 601292 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl NICK :Guest9802
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< 1755273253 467518 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1755276083 107624 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755276921 178875 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
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< 1755281304 63051 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755281922 134382 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1755282357 493291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163456&oldid=163448 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+9) 10stub
< 1755283663 988184 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755283673 154310 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1755284250 254659 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For my use, I will want to use faster random numbers and is not multi-players
< 1755284294 593439 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do i bring my dice? (idont have context)
< 1755284407 316965 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl JOIN #esolangs * :user3456
< 1755284431 365246 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl NICK :Guest8291
< 1755284475 455229 :Guest8291!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl CHGHOST user3456 :user/user3456
< 1755284506 269770 :Guest8291!user3456@user/user3456 NICK :user3456
< 1755285173 918653 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755285876 840780 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -9.93, score 13.47, rank 46/47
< 1755286165 272174 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -5.88, score 17.53, rank 25/47 (+21)
< 1755286636 481194 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nighty-Night *
< 1755286716 545813 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -2.48, score 20.12, rank 18/47 (+7)
< 1755287127 795065 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -0.93, score 21.52, rank 16/47 (+2)
< 1755287226 927809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: so one possibility is to hash consecutive integers, then split each resulting hash into small segments and treat each of those segments as a random result
< 1755287249 218328 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way, one hashing operation gives you several random results, so it helps to reduce the performance hit of using the hashing algorithm
< 1755287598 987244 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -0.21, score 22.15, rank 15/47 (+1)
< 1755289187 235094 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -0.10, score 22.20, rank 15/47 (--)
< 1755289293 571512 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points 1.81, score 23.93, rank 12/47 (+3)
< 1755290057 779069 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points 1.83, score 23.95, rank 12/47 (--)
< 1755290100 926658 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points 1.93, score 24.04, rank 12/47 (--)
< 1755290555 803270 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points 2.14, score 24.22, rank 12/47 (--)
< 1755290769 509308 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.medium: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-35)
< 1755290805 921121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755290806 178021 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 2.14, score 24.22, rank 12/47
< 1755290828 948328 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was initially just messing around but this does much better than I expected)
< 1755290852 600800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I think the general strategy is too unstable for it to become a champion
< 1755291137 618526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755291137 863927 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 2.62, score 25.27, rank 10/47 (+2)
< 1755291406 929809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755291407 121545 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 2.81, score 25.56, rank 9/47 (+1)
< 1755291452 547517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it now beats 8 out of the top 10 programs, losing to two_thirds and tying with itself
< 1755291495 547533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it turns out that the standard strategy that most of the winners use is predictable enough to take advantage of it
< 1755291633 194147 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755291702 401805 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1755292454 468528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163457&oldid=149567 5* 03Ais523 5* (+787) 10/* Accelerated clear */ new section
< 1755292869 985333 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755293024 953624 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1755293248 977038 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1755293367 439273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755293367 652256 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 3.52, score 26.24, rank 9/47 (--)
< 1755293561 321392 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755293919 826866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755293920 99287 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 4.43, score 26.89, rank 8/47 (+1)
< 1755294491 745012 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755294491 972456 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 4.86, score 27.30, rank 7/47 (+1)
< 1755294922 763756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755294923 2403 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 6.95, score 29.78, rank 6/47 (+1)
< 1755295208 460397 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755295208 762235 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 7.05, score 29.81, rank 6/47 (--)
< 1755295402 124537 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755295417 438324 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
> 1755297876 463611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arch is the best! without a quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163458 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+403) 10Created page with "[[Arch is the best! without a quine]] is an esolang made by ~~~~ which is like Arch is the best!, but if you type this: Arch is the best! it outputs: Yes, Arch is the best! Anything else outputs: Arch is the best! [[Category:Languages]
< 1755297911 823929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we really need a quineless version of every language that just prints a fixed string?
< 1755298040 209642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( We have the answers to your rhetorical questions. )
< 1755299399 183199 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you can tell me what [[category:nope. derivatives]] should be renamed to -- something like [[category:constant languages]] or [[category:constants]] -- then I'll do the needful.
< 1755299433 373202 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'd be willing to fill out [[category:quine-avoiding languages]]; maybe that could go through the talk-page process.
< 1755301134 628191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: might be worth discussing the name on the categorisation page
< 1755301156 444460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the name "constant string printers" came to mind, but I think we normally use that for esolangs which allow you to choose which constant string gets printed
< 1755301190 534640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general it is a bad idea to make big changes to categories without discussion, it is hard for individual people get it right on their own (I know I struggle with it)
< 1755301631 837135 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1755301965 88321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163459&oldid=163457 5* 03Ais523 5* (+4) 10/* Clear */ fix capitalisation of [[brainfuck]]
> 1755302231 118259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163460&oldid=163459 5* 03Ais523 5* (+0) 10/* Careless clear */ the example didn't match the commentary change the commentary to match
< 1755303036 944198 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1755303778 792196 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1755304505 299443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163461&oldid=163460 5* 03Ais523 5* (+135) 10/* Trail */ not just useful against defence
< 1755307388 547216 :ajal!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1755312337 769913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163462&oldid=162349 5* 03Corbin 5* (+816) 10/* Constant languages */ new section
> 1755313514 653839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163463&oldid=163294 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+57) 10
> 1755313790 482442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163464&oldid=163249 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+75) 10
> 1755314160 253916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163465&oldid=160790 5* 03H33T33 5* (+301) 10
< 1755317750 588689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1755317900 881169 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About the random numbers, the one I use so far is in the "dice" function in https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/superzz0/refs/heads/trunk/game.c and may be used multiple times per frame (but not always; it is not necessarily consistent)
> 1755318235 254493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Low-level14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163466&oldid=7964 5* 03Corbin 5* (+462) 10Slightly clarify this category. Still a bit nebulous.
< 1755318995 112171 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea of making the hash and using parts of it is something that I had thought of before, but it seems unnecessary for this program, it might be useful for some other programs. (I might be wrong though)
> 1755319050 370030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Marina14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163467&oldid=152664 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+199) 10
> 1755319137 550738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tweet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163468&oldid=96960 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3) 10
> 1755320523 290239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163469&oldid=163183 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+76) 10
> 1755321152 256725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WoodyFan341214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163470&oldid=163419 5* 03WoodyFan3412 5* (+103) 10
> 1755321191 368681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163471&oldid=163469 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+309) 10
> 1755321242 153082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163472&oldid=163447 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+200) 10Added my introduction
> 1755321301 914751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Psuranas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163473 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+77) 10Added my page
> 1755321664 895603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163474&oldid=162814 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+90) 10
> 1755321900 489475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163475&oldid=163474 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+102) 10
> 1755322120 490260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163476&oldid=163084 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+41) 10
> 1755324908 583634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed/Examples14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163477&oldid=163455 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+1) 10
> 1755325878 752258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163478&oldid=163431 5* 03Insulation 5* (+22) 10
< 1755327183 45017 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755327931 674875 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1755328170 499051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed/Examples14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163479&oldid=163477 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+73) 10
< 1755329631 882510 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1755333491 318534 :roper!~b@147.136.253.221 JOIN #esolangs roper :a
> 1755334522 130873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nocap14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163480 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+6883) 10Added noCap
> 1755334580 728323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Psuranas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163481&oldid=163473 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+43) 10Added my language
> 1755334646 783706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nocap14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163482&oldid=163480 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+0) 10Fixed year
> 1755335373 95514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163483&oldid=163478 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+12) 10Added noCap
> 1755337534 186096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163484 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+97) 10.
< 1755337774 453912 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1755338156 599069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nocap14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163485&oldid=163482 5* 03Psuranas 5* (+25) 10Added output only category
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< 1755342005 95192 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755342993 354676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755343424 881819 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755343461 291661 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755343503 814616 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1755344626 438652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163486&oldid=163462 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1154) 10/* Constant languages */ some thoughts
< 1755346641 330962 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1755348680 543277 :roper!~b@147.136.253.221 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1755349028 189409 :roper!~b@147.136.253.221 JOIN #esolangs roper :a
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> 1755353040 511482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFryAltered14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163487&oldid=157965 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+78) 10
> 1755353131 458441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Moed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163488&oldid=156949 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+68) 10/* Sinisterimperae */
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> 1755353323 145175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163489&oldid=158912 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
< 1755354421 466364 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( shapez 2 is a horror game: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-clowns.jpg )
< 1755354570 818448 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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< 1755357509 52626 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: if you don't need a cryptographically secure random generator, that is, if you're fine with an adversary being able to predict the future random numbers from past ones, then I'd recommend https://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/m-mat/MT/MT2002/emt19937ar.html (Mersenne twister), it's simple and supports seeding from a vector of integer seeds of the length of your choice. the C++ standard added
< 1755357515 44434 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some array seeding like that, but the interface is really messed up and hard to use, and it isn't compatible with this even if you use the mersenne twister backend which is otherwise compatible with the standalone Mersenne-twister library.
> 1755357543 475171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nocap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163490&oldid=163485 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+27) 10
< 1755357941 846677 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're implementing from scratch, I recommend PCG: https://www.pcg-random.org/ The amount of code is quite small and the resulting RNG is fairly good.
< 1755357970 960130 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I haven't heard of that yet, thank you
< 1755357975 55009 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll take a look
< 1755358019 60720 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ccan you seed it from a vector of integer seeds?
> 1755358135 1639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nocap14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163491 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+143) 10Created page with "Isn't this the language made by FaceDev? ~~~~"
< 1755358565 986947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like the Mersenne Twister for most applications, it has a stupidly large internal state and doesn't use it for security properties
< 1755358623 906104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think the Mersenne Twister is specifically designed to guarantee a good spread of results so that it can be used for randomized algorithms in scientific research, which most earlier RNGs didn't – but that makes the pattern somewhat predictable in reverse-engineerable ways)
< 1755358644 187605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, when I'm generating random numbers that don't need to be secure, I like to use a 64-bit MRNG
< 1755358655 256274 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755358676 533979 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: interesting, but I think I'll just stick to cryptographically secure random generators because computers are so fast today that I can afford it
< 1755358679 766370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is incredibly fast, you just multiply the seed by a 64-bit constant to produce a new seed, and take the top few bits of the result to produce the random number
< 1755358695 326913 :krychu!~krychu@static.19.136.108.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :krychu
< 1755358714 754451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yet, if you pick the right constant, the results are hard to distinguish from random, they pass the standard randomness tests
< 1755358778 296574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, I used a 128-bit MRNG
< 1755358780 799492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still very fast
> 1755358835 675714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nocap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163492&oldid=163491 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+133) 10
< 1755358867 914117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : The parameter 25096281518912105342191851917838718629 is taken from Tables of linear congruential generators of different sizes and good lattice structure , Pierre L’Ecuyer, Math. Comp. 68 (1999), 249-260, .
< 1755358944 518469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is the modulus 2**128?
< 1755358949 634010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1755358988 59888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the paper I linked gives values for both LCRNGs and MRNGs, for both power-of-2 moduli and highest-prime-beneath-power-of-2 moduli
< 1755358999 445868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it notes that if you're using a power-of-2 modulus, the seed has to be an odd numbre
< 1755359001 29216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* number
< 1755359005 588718 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No worries. Yeah, if you can afford a CSPRNG then it's always a better decision, even for simple stuff like Bloom filters or hash-consing.
< 1755359009 681571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm 2^126 period
< 1755359054 807710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is the best multiplicative order you can get moduloe 2^128)
< 1755359063 509227 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have used Mersenne twister in some code I wrote in the past
< 1755359077 986330 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes – that should be large enough in practice
< 1755359100 306440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can increase the period a bit by adding a constant, to get an LCRNG, but there's really no point and it just slows the program down
> 1755359158 900030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PkmnQ 5* 10moved [[02Nocap10]] to [[NoCap]]
> 1755359158 958314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PkmnQ 5* 10moved [[02Talk:Nocap10]] to [[Talk:NoCap]]
< 1755359173 310359 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, depending on the application, there are several algorithms that deterministically produce numbers which are e.g. uniformly distributed on the unit square or sphere, and those can be *much* faster since they don't need to pull any entropy. Those can be useful for e.g. raytracing.
> 1755359173 311073 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NoCap14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163497&oldid=163493 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-4) 10
< 1755359235 947344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: uniformly distributed on a sphere is very difficult, at least if you want more than a few points
< 1755359269 827035 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are only so many platonic solids
< 1755359355 298713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you can get up to 60 under the constraint of "you can rotate/reflect any point onto any other" (theoretically you can do more based on prism/antiprism approaches but those solutions are obviously nonuniform looking at them, as the points all lie on one of a few circles)
< 1755359432 947075 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The trick is to find epsilon-delta definitions of "uniformly", so that they can be non-uniform for any finite number of points. A useful key phrase in the literature is "low-discrepancy sequence"; the uniformity comes from sequences which naturally don't stray far from an origin.
< 1755359492 375387 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_solid and 120
< 1755359515 646683 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://extremelearning.com.au/unreasonable-effectiveness-of-quasirandom-sequences/ This classic post uses a Lambert projection to get up from a cube to a sphere. I wouldn't think that this is fast enough, but maybe it works for them.
< 1755359627 622712 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you may remember them from tom7's next video
> 1755359768 534659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163498&oldid=163489 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
< 1755359771 139085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that article gives a construction for 180
> 1755359782 937374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FH14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163499&oldid=163498 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
< 1755359792 707290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, no
< 1755359796 839236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :180 edges, but 120 faces
< 1755359802 901107 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found some old code. I used that above recipe, with the plastic ratio, to get a sampling pattern with no (aniso)tropic artifacts. It does have an isotropic textured look, but I prefer that to Moiré. https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/6da286a954f039e524c282c10cff1d6a43664d0f/mast/lib/samplers.mt#L173-L194
< 1755359804 466345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you were right
< 1755359867 418985 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I forgot that there's additional fun in there. I added T-testing for pixel sampling; instead of always taking thousands of samples/pixel, take exactly 3 samples and use a T-test to figure out how many more samples are required.
< 1755359868 479187 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the funny thing is, it isn't particularly uniform-looking either, lots of gaps in the middle of the dual-decagons
< 1755359918 894267 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it won't give you more *symmetry* than a platonic solid, mind you, just more uniformity
< 1755359925 540677 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it rolls better as a football
< 1755359993 326360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it is the most spherical of all Catalan solids
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> 1755365033 223502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BittyLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163500&oldid=149257 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+56) 10
> 1755366274 233709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163501&oldid=163358 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+97) 10
> 1755366547 94712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BittyLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163502&oldid=163500 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+1) 10/* See also */
> 1755367124 229807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BittyLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163503&oldid=163502 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+7) 10
> 1755367181 77410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163504&oldid=163438 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+31) 10/* See also */
> 1755367213 905015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163505&oldid=163504 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+25) 10/* See also */
> 1755367246 824903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163506&oldid=163505 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* just added categories */
> 1755367259 220603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163507&oldid=163506 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* See also */
> 1755367272 228684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163508&oldid=163507 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* See also */
> 1755367317 212297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163509&oldid=163508 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* See also */
> 1755367348 617496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163510&oldid=163509 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* See also */
> 1755367534 591126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163511&oldid=163510 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+110) 10
< 1755368128 310307 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755373587 310852 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755373859 319578 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1755375049 454055 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755375654 465549 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755376107 63506 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755376405 259631 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night, Worlds!
< 1755376533 65785 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755376593 335737 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755378391 560257 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why did I receive a HTTP/0.9 request on a non-HTTP server? The file they requested is actually available on the port number they used, but not using HTTP.
< 1755379232 970853 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is a incomplete article about Spider solitaire; is there some relation with esoteric programming that someone might intend to write about?
< 1755379294 617288 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b18c:352c:ad0a:c01 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755379935 332647 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1755382707 225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1755386945 502122 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755386982 309873 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :HackEso
> 1755390407 725010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Nekomimi0128 5* 10New user account
< 1755391236 202902 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755395145 321533 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755396304 508500 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755396344 387137 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1755401584 775265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FH14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163512&oldid=163499 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
< 1755403061 35843 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: You
> 1755404035 514209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DefLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163513 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+7269) 10Created page with "DefLang is designed by PSTF. It is derived from Brainfuck. = Specification = DefLang program consist a header and a script, where: * Header contains all the command you designed, and * Script is the main program. == Syntax == To define a command, you use this s
> 1755404107 855707 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163514&oldid=163483 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14) 10
> 1755404713 973648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163515&oldid=162855 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+340) 10
> 1755405174 440725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163516&oldid=162249 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-6) 10
> 1755409153 376245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163517&oldid=163465 5* 03H33T33 5* (-176) 10
< 1755413520 167513 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755413553 805438 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1755413649 196990 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755414095 399912 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1755415542 619267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163518 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3049) 10Created page with " is an esoteric programming language designed by PSTF, inspired from [[Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]]. = Command Table = {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands/Instructions |- ! Command !! What it does |- | # || Start program |- | + || Increment accumulato
> 1755415617 239564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163519&oldid=163514 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+69) 10
< 1755417459 165463 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755417670 234323 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755417876 112710 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1755422034 818395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163520 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+21218) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=AAA
> 1755422106 370829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SzszszszszszszsZ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163521&oldid=163398 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+2178) 10
> 1755422460 550034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser/vector.css14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163522 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+119) 10Created page with "body { background: #DDFFDD } p::before { content: "what to do in this thing "; color: white; font-size: 24px; }"
> 1755422815 445031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163523&oldid=163501 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+202) 10
< 1755422907 344221 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1755423856 410197 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1755427934 617795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755429297 456864 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755429900 876693 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1755430019 76173 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755430031 520539 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755430734 75291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User made14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163524&oldid=162917 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+82) 10
< 1755431302 959964 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755431840 355987 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755433434 164970 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755435944 298017 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755436519 49969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163525&oldid=160993 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1155) 10
> 1755437048 584015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163526&oldid=163515 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+0) 10
> 1755437163 87 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VERPNL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163527&oldid=150988 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+39) 10
< 1755438617 931796 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755441057 760491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163528&oldid=159233 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+149) 10
< 1755441455 415029 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755441653 31324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163529&oldid=151766 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+29) 10
> 1755442073 726819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163530&oldid=160124 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+22) 10
> 1755443078 139090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FakeScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163531&oldid=133058 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+14) 10/* See also */
< 1755444360 532019 :roper!~b@147.136.253.221 JOIN #esolangs roper :a
< 1755446292 365768 :roper!~b@147.136.253.221 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1755446440 691927 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755447297 62809 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755448026 991122 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755450883 133774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163532 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+334) 10Created page with "[[ooord]] joke esolang developed by [[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]], where every character ords "o" =python implementation= for c in input(): ord(o)
=examples= ==ord "o"== b
==output "111"== 0
==output "111" 3 times== 1755450986 198689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163533&oldid=163532 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+5) 10/* python implementation */
> 1755451070 162350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163534&oldid=163523 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+2) 10/* Newest Esolang */
> 1755451096 522297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163535&oldid=163534 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+17) 10/* List of my esolangs */
> 1755451159 916391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163536&oldid=163535 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+18) 10/* List of my esolangs */
> 1755451321 768903 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163537&oldid=163533 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+87) 10
< 1755452704 587069 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755452995 880580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163538&oldid=163537 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+168) 10
> 1755453022 899844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163539&oldid=163538 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-3) 10/* see also */
> 1755453098 247170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163540&oldid=163539 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-23) 10/* see also */
> 1755453136 602411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163541&oldid=163540 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-1) 10/*categories*/
> 1755453159 113976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163542&oldid=163541 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10
> 1755453190 697859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163543&oldid=163542 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-62) 10/* see also */
> 1755453276 436345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ooord14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163544&oldid=163543 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+87) 10
< 1755453935 815771 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755454146 458847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Delete14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163545 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+374) 10Created page with "[[Delete]] is [[:Category:Joke languages|joke language]] inspired by [[&]], which works only if you delete it. =interpreter(python)=
print("error: delete it") =examples= ==raise an error== igxeicciyfwkyfjhwvjdhvkhsbljveepjhepjggorhgiuefouteog
> 1755454540 877278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163546 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+429) 10Created page with "Adders is a esolang with only one accumulator (but infinite variables) that uses code as variables to work Commands: + add 1 to the accumulator - subtract 1 from the accumulator @: Loop until accumulator is zero ... x = ... redefine or define x $(x
> 1755454644 790085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163547&oldid=163546 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+70) 10
> 1755454695 593703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163548&oldid=163547 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+42) 10
> 1755454805 581758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163549&oldid=163548 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+53) 10
> 1755454822 755744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163550&oldid=162994 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+12) 10
> 1755454847 797558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Delete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163551&oldid=163545 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+46) 10
> 1755454869 869109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163552&oldid=163549 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+27) 10
> 1755454929 637812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adders14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163553&oldid=163552 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+37) 10
> 1755455013 483643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163554&oldid=163536 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+18) 10/* D */ added [[Delete]]
> 1755455037 316285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163555&oldid=163554 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+1) 10/* Newest Esolang */
> 1755455117 328880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163556&oldid=162786 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+24) 10
> 1755455428 670838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163557&oldid=162616 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+64) 10
> 1755456362 477230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163558&oldid=163555 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+108) 10
< 1755456697 219870 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
< 1755457124 739174 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nope, apparently there's at least three more. wow.
< 1755457308 959105 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile, demon-duke of ruin: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/wishes> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trading-2 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/basilisk https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that
< 1755457314 966563 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
< 1755457554 450180 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SMBC appearances of the demon Bozmodiklax the vile, demon-duke of ruin: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/why-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/cleric https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/wishes http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lady-stuff https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/trading-2 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/basilisk https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/sacrifice-2
< 1755457559 456559 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/firstborn . Note that http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4072 features a different cosmic horror, Hziulquoigmnzhah of Cykranosh, the dread spawn of Cxaxukluth.
< 1755458091 449904 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1755458414 837437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163559&oldid=163529 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+52) 10
> 1755458475 873277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163560&oldid=163559 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10
> 1755458514 799167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/BRING BACK THE OLD SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163561&oldid=163560 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
< 1755459081 522526 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly also http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-magic-was-inside-you
> 1755459600 460389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163562&oldid=163526 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+120) 10
> 1755460627 37205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen/Skyscraper14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163563 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+60) 10Created page with "you can make a different version of the cgol skyscraper here"
< 1755460768 302221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755461186 851454 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755461637 936436 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1755461797 631877 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755462904 447104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163564&oldid=163403 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+115) 10/* Turing completeness */ new section
> 1755462930 817888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163565&oldid=163564 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+1) 10fix sig
> 1755462954 813246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163566&oldid=163565 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+84) 10attempt 2
> 1755463403 240941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163567 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+1593) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} [[MoreThanZero]] is one of [[:Category:Stack-based|stack-based]] [[esoteric programming language]]s, which just editing the numbers by stack, and can't create useful programms, and it makes MoreThanZero unuseful. =Language Overview= MoreThanZer
< 1755463773 453683 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1755464391 739715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163568&oldid=163567 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+104) 10
> 1755464599 274516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163569&oldid=163568 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+115) 10/* Language Overview */
> 1755464712 745516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MTZ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163570 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+26) 10Redirected page to [[MoreThanZero]]
> 1755464875 737048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163571&oldid=163558 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+31) 10
< 1755466687 192627 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755466776 665751 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755467077 182244 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1755468440 42587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Tag system14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163572&oldid=163566 5* 03Corbin 5* (+328) 10/* Turing completeness */ Yeah, I think so.
< 1755468871 632442 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:c170:7352:be3a:d385 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755469175 919938 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1755469645 560334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pootis14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163573 5* 03SigmaOctantis 5* (+5556) 10Created page
< 1755473988 597048 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755474010 965621 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
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< 1755474402 188423 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755477966 403525 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755483196 368151 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.33.54.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1755485822 169868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Constant14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163574 5* 03Corbin 5* (+610) 10What's a constant anyway?
> 1755488323 533256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IceBox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163575&oldid=142424 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+18) 10made it more obvious
< 1755488673 459193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755490165 391023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163576 5* 03DifferentDance8 5* (+10421) 10Created page with "[[]] is a very cute and very Japanese esolang created by [[User:DifferentDance8]], based around the Japanese concept of ''kawaii'' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%8B%E3%82%8F%E3%81%84%E3%81%84 which the esolang shamelessly borrows the name from]). As a matter o
< 1755494639 511612 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755494650 229866 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
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< 1755501511 562530 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755505918 936749 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1755512096 955604 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.101.52.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1755514125 225221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163577&oldid=163571 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+141) 10
> 1755514233 860358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163578&oldid=163577 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+30) 10
> 1755514340 30005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163579&oldid=163520 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+25) 10
< 1755516242 895411 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755516277 67206 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755516339 987261 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1755517204 431887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755517523 836309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163580&oldid=163569 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+15146) 10
> 1755517918 943518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163581&oldid=163580 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+245) 10
> 1755518057 639465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163582&oldid=163581 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* Python GUI IDE+File readwr+CLI */
< 1755518198 693584 :roper!~b@98.96.185.4 JOIN #esolangs roper :a
> 1755519972 241093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:MoreThanZeroLogo 20250818152024.png10]]"
> 1755520344 736390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163584&oldid=163582 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+138) 10
> 1755521608 687160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163585&oldid=163584 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+303) 10
> 1755521751 362848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163586&oldid=163585 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+8) 10
< 1755525589 277668 :roper!~b@98.96.185.4 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755526297 975282 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.101.52.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1755527830 142434 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
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< 1755529998 47703 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1755530070 688609 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1755534296 690457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163587&oldid=163586 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+174) 10/* Examples */
> 1755534308 656527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163588&oldid=163587 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-2) 10/* Without comments */
> 1755534954 952982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163589&oldid=163588 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+0) 10/* Output "Hi" */
< 1755534965 314040 :Pixton!~Pixton@2601:447:c001:2db0::60e1 JOIN #esolangs * :Pixton
< 1755535020 411938 :Pixton!~Pixton@2601:447:c001:2db0::60e1 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1755536761 807072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MoreThanZero14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163590&oldid=163589 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+7) 10
< 1755537773 521041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1755537959 107478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waitforme14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163591 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+630) 10Created page with "=Interpreters= ==Python== # waitforme interpreter import time for c in input(): if c == "1": time.sleep(1) elif c == "2": time.sleep(2) elif c == "3": time.sleep(3) elif c == "4": time.sleep(4) elif c == "5": time.sl
> 1755538364 285783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waitforme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163592&oldid=163591 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+337) 10
> 1755538537 31782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Waitforme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163593&oldid=163592 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+129) 10
< 1755538585 997057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755539229 393378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163594&oldid=163578 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+32) 10
< 1755540778 534499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, multivariate statistics.
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< 1755541669 24290 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1755542201 475957 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.101.52.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1755542562 334050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Output only14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163595&oldid=7885 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1254) 10Hack out a polite explanation and give an example.
< 1755543046 730148 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL, I'm looking at the start of https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2542366691 (a successful 100% space age speedrun)... so one contentious recent change to Factorio is that for enemy-related achievements, the enemy settings on the starter world cannot be changed. Which makes them really hard. So how would you tweak the settings to still make a run feasible but not have to deal with so many biters...
< 1755543129 480976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and I'm now realizing that this is probably not noticable if you haven't seen other people generating factorio maps)
< 1755543415 48913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And now I'm wondering whether this trick is new or something people have always been doing. I rather suspect that it's Space Age 100% specific. For the base game you wouldn't have enough resources for scaling up for the 20M green chips (I think?) goal)
< 1755543543 895019 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not familiar with the rules for Factorio. I would hope that the community has conventions for random-seed vs chosen-seed runs?
< 1755543586 8685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Their 100% category has used random seeds since forever.
< 1755543630 51956 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I found it. Space Age isn't on the same leaderboard.
< 1755543655 233529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The reasoning, IIUC is that since you have blueprints, and you could (but no longer can) almost completely turn off biters, the speedrun would boil down to executing the exact same, I don't know, 4h thing over and over again
< 1755543697 929405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And Space Age uses the same rule(s).
< 1755543703 706335 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some of us are into that. Horizon 1 is 3-4hrs depending on difficulty. Horizon 2 is 4hrs almost regardless of difficulty; so much loading and cutscenes.
< 1755543722 487879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, it makes sense to wonder whether something makes a run too boring.
< 1755543784 607522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Their Any% allows a fixed seed but no imported blueprints.
< 1755543832 219988 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, okay. So that's the equivalent of e.g. Minecraft chosen-seed any%.
< 1755543882 408483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess one part of this is that the last 2 or so hours are a lot of running around preparing train lines to outposts that are built by bots, which isn't even too challenging. And that would be even more boring if the patch locations were fixed
< 1755543882 849585 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Horizon 2 has an entire portion of the inventory, the Stash, that is forbidden in all categories. Even opening it is bad enough to invalidate a run, usually, since it can't easily be done by mistake. The issue is that the Stash *might* contain DLC weapons which trivialize the end of the game.
< 1755543942 246809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. From waht I've seen they usually use map settings that generate *much* larger continents. It's rare to see the ocean on the initial map generation screen.
< 1755544016 980280 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. Rare enough that people farm for seeds with ocean? Usually there's no rule against that, just frustration.
< 1755544063 987792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah, it's a map generation setting that you can change, evidently.
< 1755544108 110181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Evident here because every reroll results in a pretty small island continent. Something I've never seen in other speedruns :) )
< 1755544170 832555 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Okay. I guess I don't know anything about Space Age at all. Thanks for explaining.
< 1755544223 206913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah I only realized after posting that the thing I laughed about requires some specific context.
< 1755544276 226769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It happens :) I'm pretty sure b_jonas would get it without explanation. Though he might tell me that it's an old trick that has been in use since the ancient times.
< 1755544331 388567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The last bit is that the enemies get more numerous and stronger the farther away you get from the starting point (center of the generated map)
< 1755544343 726872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they don't spawn in water ;)
< 1755544355 753374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's no biggie. I'm not bothered. But after working on reverse-engineering Minecraft I got kind of burnt out on the genre. I haven't put time into Factorio, Palworld, etc. On the plus side, I'm not playing any gachas.
< 1755544430 459151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oho, that makes sense but I guess it never clicked before. So map generation has to have enough land for building but enough nearby ocean to prevent the worst enemy spawns.
< 1755544448 327603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've somehow successfully avoided Minecraft. (By now it's poisened (tied to MS) so I'm no longer even at risk.)
< 1755544451 813634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...That is not a good sentence, whoops.
< 1755544495 307095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I understood
< 1755544533 843151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There is an Anglophone joke about "why call them buildings? they already done, call them builts")
> 1755544588 969143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Y/Y14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163596&oldid=143993 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+113) 10/* Syntax */ i tried
> 1755544601 664760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Y/Y14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163597&oldid=163596 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-95) 10/* Syntax */ oops
> 1755545002 656084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loading14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163598 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+233) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} {{infobox proglang |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |author=[[User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser]] }} Loading [[:Category:Joke languages|joke]] [[esoteric programming language]], where you modifying the loading. =Language overwiev="
> 1755547399 88017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gaham's Sequence Database-like Language14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163599 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+256) 10will finish this later
< 1755547499 879353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ᘰᘳ
< 1755547505 56379 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :[U+1630 CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER LHE] [U+1633 CANADIAN SYLLABICS CARRIER LHA]
< 1755548218 264836 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1755548430 723570 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755548442 222439 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755548443 37229 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755548761 97134 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1755548761 97493 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1755548884 987103 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755549476 799897 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755549494 901333 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1755550355 206104 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1755550385 815443 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1755552045 310075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Loading14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163600&oldid=163598 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+5635) 10
> 1755552324 62462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gaham's Sequence Database-like Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163601&oldid=163599 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10
< 1755553728 395213 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1755555699 945766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163602&oldid=161172 5* 03Ais523 5* (+16) 10/* A */ +[[AsciiDots]]
> 1755556103 725309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Queuenanimous14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163603&oldid=79637 5* 03Ais523 5* (+433) 10a followup
< 1755557011 309384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755557238 896440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163604&oldid=163602 5* 03Ais523 5* (-20) 10/* T */ the list should name languages, not wiki pages: name the language and link to the page/section documenting it
< 1755557862 418328 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1755558011 788831 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl JOIN #esolangs * :user3456
< 1755558035 685797 :user3456!user3456@gateway04.insomnia247.nl NICK :Guest8364
< 1755558753 930415 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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< 1755560818 873257 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1755560844 936687 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1755561389 343414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mama,ILearnedhowto do14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163605 5* 03A() 5* (+2206) 10Created page with "[[Mama,ILearnedhowto do]] is a programming langauge where you explain to your mother what you have learned. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Header text !! Header text |- | Mama. || start of program |- | . || end of line |- | I learned how to
< 1755564852 467683 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.101.52.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1755566240 811445 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1755569486 113410 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.170 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DifferentDance8
< 1755570568 68803 :molson!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1755574148 669049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163606&oldid=163323 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+15) 10
> 1755574234 958511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163607&oldid=163606 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+0) 10
> 1755575065 715328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/qoob derivatives14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163608&oldid=161082 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+466) 10Add example tag system
< 1755575181 913693 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is something I am not sure where to write this.
< 1755575242 204524 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The TV provider changed the TV again. Some people here still want to watch TV, and now it uses the TiVo Android TV, and it cannot be connected to the VCR, and the UI is even worse than it was before, and an external caption decoder cannot be used. I was trying to see if I could make it by myself in a better way.
< 1755575324 567088 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found the TV guide data in XML format (the time zone is wrong, but that is easy to work around). I also found the CBC television by internet, but it is M3U file that links to the video files that are only a few seconds each; why do they do it so badly? VLC can play them, but it says the version number is wrong if I try to play the M3U file directly.
< 1755575643 619376 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why are the designs this bad?
> 1755575672 179433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163609&oldid=163607 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+82) 10
> 1755575829 704446 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163610&oldid=163609 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-27) 10
> 1755576031 732914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163611&oldid=162641 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+200) 10
< 1755579319 71337 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.58.23.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1755579752 503030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755581279 282572 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
< 1755581875 506180 :rodgort`!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755581948 866564 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1755584137 213615 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755584173 458185 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
< 1755585035 826533 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1755586231 898620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Delete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163612&oldid=163551 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* */
< 1755589313 111777 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest66
< 1755589373 575635 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au PRIVMSG #esolangs :does anyone know how to contact the admins so that i can finally have a acc i've been trying to get an acc for like two hours
< 1755589399 443753 :Guest66!~Guest66@n175-38-99-74.meb1.vic.optusnet.com.au QUIT :Client Quit
< 1755589695 663329 :DifferentDance8!~Different@65.181.23.170 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755590162 696986 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1755591080 357348 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org PRIVMSG #esolangs :yo
< 1755591329 956218 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1755592602 534786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163613&oldid=163594 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+17) 10
< 1755592858 98803 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1755593176 789241 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1755593580 732049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163614&oldid=163511 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-2) 10/* See also */
> 1755594176 239602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163615&oldid=163614 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+18) 10
> 1755594187 308580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163616 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+838) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} '''Dumbascii-2''' is essentially the same as [[Dumbascii]], it just adds two commands and custom file extension. =Language Overview= Dumbascii-2, like [[Dumbascii]], works with outputting ASCII characters, but it uses .dumbascii instead of .txt
< 1755594303 113348 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1755594570 169513 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you ever implemented sorting strings in an order something like libc's strverscmp function or (ls -v), which is mostly asciibetical order but sequences of digits are sorted primarily by their numeric value so "foo9" is before "foo10"? I just implemented a simple version (not equivalent to the libc function; still a total order on strings so I
< 1755594570 668415 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :get a consistent sort result), and I found it annoying to implement and I'm not satisfied with my implementation.
< 1755595003 17520 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not even trying to make it particularly efficient
> 1755595082 686002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163617&oldid=163616 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+7) 10/* See Also */
< 1755595319 544551 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://dpaste.com/8M8Y8T7P9.txt shows my current implementation, the one that I'm not satisfied with
> 1755596196 663656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everybody!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1657) 10new lanaguge droped
> 1755596248 67868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163619&oldid=162618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10/* Esolangs */
> 1755596354 310763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everybody!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163620&oldid=163618 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+141) 10
> 1755596448 933909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07@everyone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163621&oldid=156639 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+105) 10
< 1755601358 875341 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755601369 956786 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔
> 1755602102 941573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163622 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+2683) 10Created page with "'''Needle''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]. ==Description== The language uses wrapping tape of 3 cells and program inside an infinite loop * _ - decrements current cell and moves right. Decrementing zero does nothing. * (...)
> 1755602214 428058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163623&oldid=163622 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+26) 10
> 1755602293 958187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163624&oldid=148998 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+24) 10
> 1755602332 794598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Needle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163625&oldid=163623 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10
< 1755602581 432101 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current X11, is
< 1755602583 787734 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :argh
< 1755602703 962247 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in current X11, can a program request the mouse position at a higher space resolution and time resolution as the display has? like, if I'm running the display at 1920x1024 pixels and 60 frames/s refresh, can I get the mouse position every 1/240 s and at a precision of half a screen pixel?
< 1755602724 869470 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1755602769 742846 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's fine if the events are delivered to the program only 60 times per second, as long as I get four positions at that point
< 1755602904 490485 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1755605567 222706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163626 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+2870) 10Created page with "{{wip}} '''Free''' is a [[:Category:Joke languages|joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] created as a parody language where the syntax is based entirely on digits and a few special symbols. The idea behind Free is that "syntax is price": every command cor
> 1755605631 209725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163627&oldid=163626 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+33) 10/* Examples */
> 1755605667 105870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163628&oldid=163627 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (-21) 10/* See also */
< 1755606845 879986 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755606859 102706 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1755606938 885935 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755606952 145821 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp
< 1755607616 877441 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still passionately hate how in vim, if you delete a line that a bookmarks point to then the bookmark will no longer exist rather than point to the previous or next existing line!
< 1755608210 838343 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755608795 526865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755608891 869097 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755608916 571536 :dnm!sid401311@id-401311.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs dnm :dnm
< 1755611416 861303 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: XIQueryPointer seems to (in theory) return fractional pixels. `xinput --test-xi2` to see if your device actually reports it
< 1755611695 905490 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does anyone know an existing language for the kind of geometric constraints used for CAD sketching?
< 1755611889 361808 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The closest I've found is, Solvespace (solvespace.com) saves its sketches in a plain text language, though it's not designed to be used by humans directly
< 1755612882 895016 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: there's metafont and metapost, but they're very limited in the kind of constraints, only linear and you have to be very careful with the precision
< 1755612892 201688 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that's probably not what you want
< 1755612911 887368 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: thank you, I'll look at that
< 1755612970 480370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION continues to question whether putting backspace next to newline was a sensible keyboard layout decision
< 1755612984 618996 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it makes more sense in old-fashioned typewriters where backspace doesn't correct errors anyway, so you would hardly ever have to use it
< 1755613004 857532 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now we're stuck with this layout.... FOREVER
< 1755613048 458370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the intended purpose of the backspace key on typewriters was to do overstrikes, like e backspace ` to create è, but IIRC you could also do that by holding down the space key and then tapping the characters you wanted to overstrike)
< 1755613106 659032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I remember how some early typewriters didn't have 0 or 1 keys, you were supposed to use capital O and capital I instead
< 1755613206 895574 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :*nod*
< 1755613347 501357 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some people move backspace over to the left, to either capslock or tab, I don't remember which
< 1755613351 157930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've read teaching manuals for typewriter operators, early typewriters had no way to correct mistakes short of retyping the entire page on a new sheet of paper, so they were very concerned with minimizing input errors
< 1755613373 378965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :caps lock is perhaps the most "competed" key on custom keyboard layouts
< 1755613405 499269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use it for compose, it's easier to type than shift-altgr (which doesn't even seem to work on my current OS)
< 1755613417 971261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, altgr-shift
< 1755613423 271242 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, in text editors I sometimes just use control-H bound to backspace, for less hand movement
< 1755613455 751108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Emacs bindings have ctrl-d as backspace, I think
< 1755613480 23447 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both esc and ctrl are commonly mapped over the caps lock location
< 1755613492 720145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(esc for vim users and ctrl for Emacs users, typically)
< 1755613508 412897 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :emacs is a newfangled thingy, control-h preserved as backspace in text editors is at least as old as wordstar, probably older
< 1755613517 126929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find the caps lock feature useful occasionally but I don't use it often enough for it to have its own dedicated key, so I bind it to shift-shift
< 1755613534 278253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i.e. you use one shift key to modify the other shift key)
< 1755613548 438764 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :My Mother in her Job at the Post Office already had an electric Typewriter with a special Key that erased the last Character with Tipp-Ex-Fluid
< 1755613553 842233 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I know, emacs is actually older, but I hadn't met emacs until later
< 1755613579 987639 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: control-D? I find that suspicious.
< 1755613636 520030 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the emacs documentation still has an FAQ along the lines of "I keep pressing backspace but it just makes the help menu appear" and the response is along the lines of "rebind all your other applications to no longer use backspace/Ctrl-H as a delete key then you'll stop making that mistake", which struck me as incredibly arrogant
< 1755613660 59785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(modern terminals usually bind backspace to Ctrl-? rather than Ctrl-H, which avoids that problem)
< 1755613678 991610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, Ctrl-D is delete forwards, not delete backwards
< 1755613721 562087 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least with my bindings
< 1755613726 39336 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I changed it?
< 1755613814 318902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Deletion.html implies that that is the default and there isn't a ctrl-letter combination for delete-backwards-char, which is really surprising to me
< 1755613818 668095 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, I think in emacs control-D and alt-D deletes forwards, control-? and alt-control-? delete backwards
< 1755613836 891596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-? deletes forwards for me
< 1755613841 325428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the GUI version
< 1755613852 710528 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh...
< 1755613861 871097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no
< 1755613869 797065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ctrl-? is apparently an undo command in the GUI ersion
< 1755613877 112477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I was testing out deletions recently, so…
> 1755614025 743387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mama,ILearnedhowto do14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163629&oldid=163605 5* 03A() 5* (+75) 10/* Hello */
< 1755614097 378151 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think undo should be control-_ , maybe you have some keyboard layout confusion
< 1755614115 238909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: C-? is apparently specifically an undo for undos
< 1755614130 838041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-_ will undo other C-_ commands if you move the cursor in between, presumably C-? means you don't have to move the cursor
< 1755614193 75332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in terminals, C-? presumably acts like backspace because they have the same code)
< 1755614280 950557 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, I think you lost me. I might be wrong about anything I say about emacs, I don't really use it anymore.
< 1755614300 118168 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not really into deep emacs lore, even though I use it as my primary editor
< 1755614304 438040 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for programming at least
< 1755614339 680563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I still use three different editors on a regular basis (there are two more that I used to use)
< 1755614378 915449 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that said, vim is configured by default to accept control-H as backspace in insert mode. I've configured at least one non-emacs non-vim editor to accept control-J as newline (I think it already accepted control-H as backspace, but control-J was bound to something else)
< 1755614418 349450 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"deep emacs lore" how you backspace counts as deep lore?
< 1755614438 819433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe! it was historically very complicated
< 1755614447 147819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think early shells used a printable character as backspace, maybe #?
< 1755614471 78884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it just appeared on the command line and you had to remember that neither it nor the previous character counted
< 1755614509 151520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I think that setting still exists on modern computers but is not normally enabled
< 1755614544 59596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : erase = ^?; kill = ^U; eof = ^D; eol = ;
< 1755614646 229681 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think that's right about the terminal, I think even early unix terminals used backspace as the backspace key, not a printable character, though they may have *echoed* it differently for hardcopy terminals (as opposed to crts), but it's possible that hash mark was used as the input character for either delete line or delete word
< 1755614673 29960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: it is possible that the time I am thinking about was in the era of hardcopy terminals
< 1755614723 421905 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I just don't think anyone ever used a printable character to input backspace on them.
> 1755614819 781260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mama,ILearnedhowto do14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163630&oldid=163629 5* 03A() 5* (+60) 10/* Hello */
< 1755614879 207008 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, on vim I mostly use control-C instead of escape, also for finger movement save without having to change any layout
< 1755614908 903796 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few exceptions when control-C doesn't work, but they rarely come up
< 1755614964 620058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so on old Unix, apparently the backspace key sent SIGINT (equivalent of ctrl-C in modern Unix)
< 1755614998 729511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I mean the delete key
< 1755615002 824378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or whichever one sends Ctrl-?
< 1755615025 137377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/a/13090
< 1755615040 69735 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also specifies # to delete one character and @ to delete the line
< 1755615065 794043 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not saying that it's the backspace *key*, I'm saying you use a control character, not a printable character, to input a backspace on even old unix
< 1755615079 649387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I linked an answer saying that it's a printable character
< 1755615141 36529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another source: https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/57831
< 1755615202 761263 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see. I may be mistaken about the unix history then.
> 1755615289 835106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163631&oldid=163093 5* 03A() 5* (+27) 10
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> 1755617887 65234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Erix0815 5* 10New user account
< 1755618933 936269 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: interesting, I didn't know that. (I also don't recall this being a feature in drawing languages post-TeX, like tikz…)
< 1755619433 72951 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind more languages having syntactic built-ins for linear equalities. And inequalities too, they're not that much slower. (It's even called linear "programming".)
< 1755619576 389856 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755620626 676084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some golfing languages have builtins for finding roots of polynomials, which seems related
< 1755621886 187384 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it's the one I'm thinking of, well... that's not multivariate polynomials. That language doesn't even have variables.
< 1755622016 739859 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Multivariate is mainly interesting because it connects the program with something other than memory or control flow.
< 1755622072 211888 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most related thing in mainstream languages might be type inference
< 1755622566 862826 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Topology ends up being an important nuance. E has both `x..y` and `x..!y` operators for ranges, and those can express inequalities and ranges.
< 1755622768 333453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: ah, you're thinking in terms of something that isn't just a library, but baked in more heavily to the language?
< 1755622814 905323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are Prologs with constraint solvers, that can solve equation systems at a level that feels closer to the language than that of a typical library (but in some cases it's nonetheless implemented as a library)
< 1755623046 810117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :inclusive/exclusive range syntax is interesting because languages have mostly agreed on .. for ranges nowadays, but differ in how they indicate inclusive/exclusive
< 1755623061 823252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Perl 6 has .. inclusive ..^ exclusive and Rust has ..= inclusive .. exclusive
< 1755623119 718017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :VHDL has "to" for a forward range and "downto" for a backward range
< 1755623178 534056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("downto" is commonly used in VHDL because it often represents numbers as arrays of bits, and the convention is to use big-endian order for the elements but little-endian order for the indexes, so the arrays get indexed backwards)
< 1755623293 423058 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thanks, I'm looking up the Prolog libraries. It seems they're all named CLP, like CLP(R) for reals.
< 1755623304 650316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in SWI-Prolog, yes
< 1755623340 657904 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also whether the range is enumerable. In E or Haskell, it always is enumerable; this leads to the fun situation where a range of Doubles has quite a few elements. ("Long iterator! Longer than you think!") I fixed this in Monte, but only by separating range queries from enumerations.
< 1755623372 170309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a sense, enumerating a range of doubles feels like a failure of abstraction
< 1755623393 224211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you actually care about the exact set of numbers a double can represent, rather than real numbers in genral
< 1755623406 263538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have seen the former case come up, but only in the context of modelling the behaviour of a program that uses floating-point internally)
< 1755623408 154470 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: That's a common pattern in Prolog. The idea is that CLP is something done over a chosen domain, and the shape of the domain matters a lot. The key phrase "finite domain" will help, since CLP(FD) is a common thing too.
< 1755623438 951285 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Another example is CHR, which has a wiki page; it requires a host language, so there's CHR(Prolog), CHR(Java), etc.)
< 1755623467 47129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently there was a fork of CLP(FD) called CLP(Z) – a SWI-Prolog project I contributed to used the latter
< 1755623487 342906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know what the difference is/was
< 1755623551 79763 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, solving over integers is quite a bit more difficult than reals (at least as used in CAD geometry), so I'm avoiding that
< 1755623577 963352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of solving over reals as being harder simply due to the difficulty of expressing the resulting values
< 1755623584 133860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you allow approximate solutions
< 1755623614 871922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess for CAD, you have an acceptable tolerance and as long as the solution is within tolerance, you're OK
< 1755623780 558949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Solving for computable reals is usually a matter of fighting with opaque libraries with bad ergonomics. FEM doesn't work right with computable reals, but that's a limitation in FEM that recent work may have fixed (search "walk on stars", currently reading http://rohansawhney.io/RohanSawhneyPhDThesis.pdf)
< 1755623942 310728 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quadratic equations are NP-hard to solve over integers (an old result from Adleman). Though, I just looked it up for quadratic real equations, and coincidentally it's of similar complexity. https://mathoverflow.net/questions/153436/
< 1755624421 926935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a clever encoding. Integers are worse because they scale all the way up to Diophantine equations, IMO, but that might be a computability-theory perspective.
< 1755624422 886126 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755624780 583850 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, with integers it's easy to bump into undecidability
< 1755624931 659722 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Actually CAD constraints can be quite subtle. Identifying whether a (unique) solution exists is the hard part, not expressing it to more precision. It's easy to build complicated linkages and then assert that two points can be made to coincide
< 1755625075 118948 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A fully constrained (no continuous DoFs) sketch will have no solution or disconnected point solution(s), and it might not be obvious which case applies. Also it can be hard to tell whether the solution you're converging to is unique
< 1755625169 859439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeesh, yes. When I worked on automatic CAD I fortunately was only working on subtractive manufacturing processes (CNC) and so we were mostly focused on encoding subtractions as CNC motions. Whether the subtraction produces the right piece was Somebody Else's Problem.
< 1755625230 950801 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some CAD software even treat an under-constrained sketch as invalid, I believe earlier versions of freecad did this? So in those systems, the engine always has to deal with the discrete solutions)
< 1755625636 164463 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand
> 1755625820 942391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Scurl14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163632 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+173) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[scurl]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. The documentation and implementation of the esolang can be found [https://github.com/vblackmar/scurl here.]"
< 1755626949 205049 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"inequalities too, they're not that much slower." => have you ever looked for actual implementations of linear programming? I have, https://plato.asu.edu/sub/pns.html has a nice collection, but I have the impression that there's nothing that both has a convenient simple interface that I can easily use, and supports *sparse* linear programming (as opposed to one with a dense matrix of coefficients). and
< 1755626955 206764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd like one. "not that much slower" is true in theory, but either I'm missing something or it's just not that easy in practice.
< 1755627705 734148 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Admittedly I have not.
< 1755627818 896035 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sparsity would be nice, but it seems that solvers (including free ones) can cope with thousands of variables: https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html
< 1755627925 691625 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Actually based on the "nonzeros" counts, most of these benchmarks are at least somewhat sparse)
< 1755628325 711768 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: yes, for practical purposes I could probably use just a dense solver, but it's sad that I have to. and if you tried to do this in something like CAD (I had a different application in mind) then you could easily grow to the size where dense is not practical.
< 1755628524 917518 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1755628951 393207 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Hmm, what do you mean by "dense solver"? I don't know how they're implemented, but the rows × columns on that benchmark page look far too large to be stored densely. The first one is 986069 × 428032
< 1755629143 792012 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: so a linear programming program looks like A*x<=b where A is a given real matrix and b is a given real vector, and you want to find a vector x of positive reals that satisfies this if it exists. (There are variants, like usually you also want to minimize something, but that's not important here.) Dense means that A is a dense matrix, with all elements explicitly listed. But in practical
< 1755629149 798814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :problems, most of the elements of A will be zero, so if both b and x are long then it's worth to represent it as a sparse matrix, storing only the nonzero elements, and solve it this way with sparse matrix operations, never representing the full matrix in memory.
< 1755629167 805028 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A dense solver would be one that uses a dense matrix A, a sparse solver uses a sparse matrix A.
< 1755629210 168778 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I'm reading that page correctly, most of those benchmark A's are too large to be dense
< 1755629235 857238 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: which benchmark page?
< 1755629249 266255 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://plato.asu.edu/ftp/lpopt.html
< 1755629252 375235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that sparse solvers exist, but I'd also like something that's easy to use for a toy project
< 1755629304 270470 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: ok, it looks like that compares multiple solvers in a benchmark
< 1755629361 954578 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I don't *really* need a full sparse LP solver, but it would be easier to just embed one if there's something with a simple interface and easy to install
< 1755629376 514752 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I admit that "sparse matrix" and "simple interface" are kind of contradictory
< 1755629393 712583 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I certainly don't need high performance for this
> 1755629547 906895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163633&oldid=163366 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-96) 10
< 1755629587 205568 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :A sparse matrix is simple to write as coefficient-variable pairs. a1*x1 + a9999*x9999 + ...
> 1755630974 559895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A?!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163634&oldid=111142 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+496) 10/* Examples */
> 1755631033 97751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163635&oldid=161757 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+484) 10/* */
< 1755632022 108658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plenty of languages nowadays have both arrays and maps as built-in objects
< 1755632063 109454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a simple API for dense matrices would probably use some sort of array-of-arrays representation, if you convert those to maps instead the same API works for sparse matrices
< 1755632085 607800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, several languages, like Lua and PHP, treat dense arrays as special cases of sparse maps
< 1755632096 240515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JS used to but I don't think it still does
< 1755632132 349327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is, those languages tend not to be the sort of systems programming languages that you would use to actually implement an efficient solver…
< 1755632200 20909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so my guess is that the bad interfaces are caused by the libraries not bothering with trying to create ergonomic FFIs
< 1755634501 970120 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Nite
< 1755639530 745016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
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< 1755645950 180167 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
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< 1755647044 288976 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 9.79, score 32.83, rank 5/47 (--)
< 1755647303 566802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755647303 845587 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.24, score 33.60, rank 5/47 (--)
> 1755647465 935357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mouldyair 5* 10New user account
< 1755647701 247056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755647701 602434 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.14, score 33.46, rank 5/47 (--)
> 1755647875 41756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163636&oldid=163472 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+162) 10
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< 1755648600 9078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755648600 378328 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.38, score 33.76, rank 5/47 (--)
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> 1755649075 546432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163637&oldid=163613 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+33) 10
< 1755649177 575832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
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< 1755649632 306679 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1755649824 891715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163638&oldid=163617 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+787) 10/* Language Overview */
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> 1755649851 151929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163639&oldid=163638 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+2) 10/* Python IDE */
< 1755650555 237751 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
< 1755650555 449895 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523.medium: points 10.76, score 34.29, rank 5/47 (--)
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> 1755652195 279785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BadEsolangIMadeForABet14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163640 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+3023) 10created page for BEIMFAB
< 1755652734 965219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust medium http://nethack4.org/pastebin/medium.bfjoust
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< 1755652748 268734 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1755652766 766822 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
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> 1755660744 176521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163641&oldid=163610 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+5) 10
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< 1755668973 606611 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read about the Legasm and I think of some things that could be done differently if I would be designing it better. The flag register seems only used for carry, so now it will be the carry register instead, set to 1 or 0 by addition and to -1 or 0 by subtraction, and the ones the adc and sbb will add the previous value of the carry register to the result.
< 1755669104 836754 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For the insrtuctions that sign-extend immediate values, I would just have it automatically set all of the high bits regardless of the value, since otherwise you could use the unsigned variants if the value to set is a constant anyways.
< 1755669335 83148 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would also think to add instructions for multiplication and division, and for rotate through carry, and to have two stacks. (The push and pop instructions currently have many unused bits, so possibly some of them can be used to select any arbitrary register to use for the stack pointer.)
< 1755669475 36841 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The existing stack pointer can be used for subroutine calls.)
> 1755669663 856263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163642&oldid=163340 5* 03Corbin 5* (+14) 10Remove undiscussed category. See also Deadfish, a likely influence.
< 1755670651 167857 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1755670693 443248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163643&oldid=162824 5* 03Corbin 5* (+301) 10Fix categories. Refactor to emphasize that this is a TBS.
< 1755674279 340261 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: thank you, I tried xinput --test-xi2 , and it does seem like I get subpixel precision mouse coordinates when I move the mouse slowly to not trigger mouse acceleration. I don't get much more precision than a pixel, but that of course can depend on the mouse and the speed setting, so I'm fine with that.
< 1755675251 65881 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Did it have temporal precision as well? (I'm not sure if xinput can determine this, you might need to do the mouse query in a tight loop)
> 1755675548 892308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OBrainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163644 5* 03L4.m2 5* (+481) 10Created page with "oBrainfuck is like brainfuck but the k-th [ matches the k-th ]. aka, the k-th [ matches in C goto Rk;Lk: and the k-th ] matches in C Rk:if(*cur)goto Lk;.+-<>,. work same. Thus,
< 1755677176 436231 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: I don't know, with those arguments it's not printing any timestamps so it's slightly more tricky to test for that and I haven't tried yet, and I'm not familiar with xinput in general
> 1755677196 802119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Algebraic Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163645&oldid=145100 5* 03Corbin 5* (+615) 10Fix capitalization. Update bluelinks. Stub a section on computability.
< 1755677543 971824 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1755680343 729382 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning.
> 1755680793 764007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163646&oldid=163203 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3689) 10Sketch the Diophantine path. This wasn't part of my education and I'm going to have to do a lot of reading in order to shore it up; nonetheless this captures the important bits.
< 1755680859 24898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna have to sleep on this new section. Rice's theorem (and Gödel's first incompleteness) are very weird-tasting for Diophantine equations.
< 1755680943 659737 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Pick a sufficiently-strong language of arithmetic. Its set of proofs is Diophantine. Its set of WFFs is Diophantine. Its set of provable WFFs is *not* Diophantine; that's Rice's theorem! So there's a way to pen-and-paper all of the proofs that are valid, but not all of the provable statements.
> 1755682040 966539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Algebraic Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163647&oldid=163645 5* 03Corbin 5* (+841) 10/* Computability */ A new approach to Halting for BF: BF can encode Diophantine searches! No input or output commands needed, just a pre-allocated output register.
> 1755682156 719343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163648&oldid=156122 5* 03RixTheTyrunt 5* (+262) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1755686071 830474 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps the wiki could link to oddball, counter-intuitive (and in that sense *esoteric*) characterizations of RE
< 1755686099 325518 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like Demaine & Hearn's game (a finite multiplayer game with finite hidden information at each turn), or the claimed proof of MIP*=RE (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=4512)
< 1755686176 438917 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :There have also been attempts to disprove the Navier-Stokes smoothness conjecture by constructing zeno machines in the model, though none have worked yet
< 1755686867 365437 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9c04:acc7:66ee:fca9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1755688734 51248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GolfScratch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163649&oldid=141449 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+488) 10/* External links */
> 1755688748 249677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GolfScratch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163650&oldid=163649 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+1) 10/* External links */
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< 1755689180 877182 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1755694674 364789 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1755696003 310811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Espaol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163651&oldid=81407 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (-18) 10fixed beginning sentence
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< 1755700435 687789 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
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< 1755705987 346623 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9c04:acc7:66ee:fca9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755706388 172145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755708110 77103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dumbascii-214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163652&oldid=163639 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+85) 10
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> 1755708409 393721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163653&oldid=163624 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+12) 10/* 2024 */
< 1755708555 334960 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
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< 1755709402 662435 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :Awoobis
< 1755709456 4511 :Awoobis!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
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< 1755714935 941693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a general name for the type of garbage collector that looks through memory to determine what's unreferenced (e.g. mark/sweep, generational, compacting), as opposed to things like reference counting which can also be considered a form of garbage collection?
< 1755715261 753163 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"tracing", from "A unified theory of GC" https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse590p/05au/p50-bacon.pdf
< 1755715450 201922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah, that makes sense – I have heard the terminology before but forgot
< 1755715503 858979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No worries. The unified theory is not even a decade old and we live in an industry that actively spreads misinformation about GC; it takes a lot of active effort to just kind of remember that this exists, and I had to dig for a few minutes to find it.
< 1755715616 715081 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.58.23.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1755715660 860776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: although I'm not surprised about the misinformation, I don't think I've been on the receiving end of it much
< 1755715665 45 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what sort of things does the industry say?
< 1755715693 570194 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :GC is slow, interrupting, unmanageable, requires tuning, etc.
< 1755715746 430927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I suspect that the "correct" way to do things is some sort of mixture where some things are GCed and other things have their allocation and deallocation times statically calculated and proven at compile time
< 1755715798 564268 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. RPython has an explicit malloc-removal phase at compile time along with a choice of hybrid GCs at runtime, and all evidence suggests that this is the right direction.
< 1755715813 787561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :generational GCs existing is kind-of ridiculous from my point of view, because it's an optimisation to easily clean up the short-lived objects – but usually you can statically determine from the program when the short-lived objects need deallocating, and it is the long-lived objects which are more interesting to GC
< 1755715826 911193 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9c04:acc7:66ee:fca9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755715866 322563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there usually seems to be about a 10× speedup when people port from GCed languages to Rust, but I suspect the speedup may be based more on the static typing than the lack of GC
< 1755715893 655026 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Using [the BCR] framework, [BCR] show that all high-performance collectors are in fact hybrids of tracing and RC'ing. ...[The BCR cost model] allows the correct scheme to be selected based on ... performance requirements and the ... properties of the ... application."
< 1755715921 222603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although they probably exist, I can't think offhand of any widely used languages which a) are GCed and b) have non-primitive types that are sufficiently static to optimise the generated code based on knowledge of the type
< 1755715953 348730 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OCaml? OCaml, Haskell, and RPython are all environments where GC is part of how I expect to reliably beat Rust on speed.
< 1755716007 416870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I actually don't know that much about ocaml's internals, except for the "everything is either a pointer or an integer with one reserved bit" thing
< 1755716010 513922 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755716020 949825 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA JOIN #esolangs JAA :JustAnotherArchivist
< 1755716028 776801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(with the reserved bit being used to distinguish integers from pointers in memory so that a GC can trace them without having to know the types)
< 1755716089 584997 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My perspective is likely skewed. I see the C++ memory model that Rust inherited as a big speed barrier. Fortran's memory model is better, but both Haskell's lazy model and OCaml's strict model (or Cammy or other CAM-likes) have their own further advantages.
< 1755716120 959972 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust only shares C++'s memory model with respect to atomics/multithreading, I think – they're different in other respects
< 1755716145 500981 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, at the value level, OCaml values are just tagged. I don't know of a good writeup, but CHICKEN Scheme uses almost the same setup and there's a great post on that: https://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-data-representation.html
< 1755716229 74979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my thoughts on all this are along the lines of "it is definitely possible to do better than Rust, but I think I have to really understand Rust first in order to beat it"
< 1755716258 55882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think C may also be beatable (for code written idiomatically), primarily through compiler optimisations that wouldn't be valid in C
< 1755716311 380839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, I meant "via" rather than "through" I think, English is hard sometimes
< 1755716340 3723 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9c04:acc7:66ee:fca9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755716591 176417 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English doesn't have an instructive case so we have to try to fake it using prepositions
< 1755716872 873432 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My experience is from Python-driven HPC, so maybe this is not something you've seen before, but IMO the atomics and multithreading *are* the issue. Suppose we have an embarrassingly-parallel for-loop and we're using something like OpenMP. When the compiler is optimizing blocks, it has to determine whether any pointers in the block are used elsewhere, because it needs to know whether it can safely remove loads/stores.
< 1755716880 916698 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fortran
< 1755716900 37805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Fortran's memory model is better than C's model. It straight-up doesn't permit as much aliasing.
< 1755717389 773272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: nor does Rust's
< 1755717494 321380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. unless you use a type that is explicitly defined as a special case, function arguments that are references cannot alias with each other unless they are read-only, but the assumption that something is not aliased is less powerful than an assumption that it is read-only
< 1755717549 673686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rustc puts an LLVM "noalias" attribute on every function argument (that isn't a defined special case or raw pointer) because of that, which is the same thing that Fortran's memory model lets you do
< 1755717612 333821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the guarantees for things that aren't function arguments are complex and not fully decided yet – I have been writing a blog post about it, it's the same blog post where I discuss how linear logic's ? seems to be present in Rust)
< 1755717644 677342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, LLVM only knows how to optimise based on non-aliasing assumptions for function arguments, because C and Fortran only have them in that location
< 1755717670 577505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to be precise: they don't alias each other nor alias global variables, that's true for Rust and for C restrict, I am not sure about Fortran but it probably has the same rule)
< 1755717697 380282 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and don't alias memory reached via each other either
< 1755717730 756503 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Rust or e.g. Pony extend Fortran's approach by making it possible to have immutable objects, so that we *don't care* if they're aliased. If all the threads want to access some constant input data, then those accesses can be optimized away sometimes.
< 1755717773 73060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1755717810 672764 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, atomics are one of those special-cased that are allowed to be aliased – they wouldn't be very useful otherwise
> 1755718013 351212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Onlydot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163654 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+374) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} {{wip}} :'''Onlydot' writing in full in lower case, excepting start of proposal.'' '''[[onlydot]]''' is [[:Category:Joke languages| joke]] [[esoteric programming language]] where valid command is only .. =Language overview= onlydo
> 1755718041 880476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163655&oldid=163637 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+4) 10/* Newest Esolang */
> 1755718080 941063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:DumbEsolangsOrgUser14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163656&oldid=163655 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+15) 10/* O */
< 1755718219 77948 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, definitely. But maybe atomics aren't necessary.
< 1755718299 186653 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Monte, there aren't any atomic variables. Instead, everything is serialized into "turns", which are single deliveries of single events to a single thread. Any cross-thread communication is done via the same generic IPC mechanism as cross-machine communication: promises!
< 1755718350 966313 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think atomics are mostly only necessary in cases where you need blocking-free algorithms, i.e. a guarantee that any given thread can make progress even if all others are paused
< 1755718366 723993 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To let threads share starting data, each thread can be given a transitively-immutable object. Incidentally, Monte modules are transitively immutable at import time. After that, they have to send messages asynchronously to communicate.
< 1755718397 737491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :signal handlers are a notable example of that, because they block the thread to which the signal was sent
< 1755718433 57073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"how do you allocate memory from a signal handler" has been a longstanding area of interest for me, existing programming frameworks make it unreasonably difficult and yet it is a potentially useful thing to do
< 1755718460 160687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(at least, it's unreasonably difficult if you want to be able to deallocate the memory again, from outside the handler)
< 1755718554 665195 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :signalfd makes it straightforward on Linux. Taming signals is historically a nasty thing, and if it weren't for signalfd then I wouldn't have bothered at all.
< 1755718855 516439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, one other nice thing about any sort of referentially-transparent machine, whether it's lazy or strict, is that *any* algebraic optimizations are valid when inlining. SML/NJ, OCaml, GHC, and other popular compilers all have some sort of straight-line monomorphic detection phase that "strictifies" or "destackifies" with respect to that algebra.
< 1755718938 544292 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know exactly how referentially transparent Rust is. I hear that LLVM Rust is already starting to be sensitive to phase ordering in LLVM, which is not a good sign.
< 1755719041 356507 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You can just call mmap, right?
< 1755719425 981471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shachaf: I was allocating small things, but I guess that *would* work
< 1755719501 428153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Rust feels like it's kind-of sort-of meant to be referentially transparent but a lot of things break that in practice
< 1755719547 487653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unsafe code allows you to do a lot of things that seem like the memory model shouldn't allow them, and yet it continues to be supported because it would break too much code if it wasn't
< 1755719573 374442 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, good to hear. Or bad to hear, but good for my expectations. Or bad for my expectations because I shouldn't be so cynical...
< 1755719616 298896 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that the flip side of this is that there's thousands of lines of Monte code that merely reimplement standard floating-point routines because there wasn't a safe way to get those routines from existing C/C++ code.
< 1755719618 103221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing I realised while working on the ? blog post is that the standard traits Clone and Debug can both be meaningful for both a) smart pointers and b) the objects they point to
< 1755719634 447127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, for Clone you usually want to clone the pointer itself and for Debug you usually want to debug the value inside
< 1755719715 763437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think this is a design flaw – it feels like Rust wants a rule "implementing a trait on a value also implements it on smart pointers to that value", which means that Clone and Debug should probably really be CloneAs and DebugAs that let you specify which level of indirection you want to clone at or debug at
< 1755719765 835477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("feels like" is partly just feelings, but also partly soundness bugs that have come about as a consequence of people not realising that a custom reference (smart pointer) type and the object it points to could implement the same standard trait in entirely unrelated ways)
< 1755719786 754149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. Move semantics suddenly imply subtyping rules, somehow.
< 1755719818 65361 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think this is actually based on the move semantics, it's a different aspect of the language design and one that I don't think is as fundamental
< 1755719892 320003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I'm also not sure the Deref/DerefMut traits know what they actually are – they have a defined API but it is less clear what they actually *mean*, in terms of what assumptions you can make when using that API
< 1755719901 64151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Monte, m`def x :T := z` desugars to roughly m`def &&x := makeBinding(T.coerce(z, null), makeFinalSlot(T))`. There are exactly two levels of underlying indirection (slot and binding) and they may only be captured or introspected in order to facilitate that .coerce/2 method.
< 1755719914 422404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other than "you can't make any assumptions because they are safe to implement with arbitrary code, thus anything that isn't guaranteed by the API isn't guaranteed by the compiler")
< 1755719986 989789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is another surprising limitation of C-style memory management: being able to take a pointer of a pointer *of a pointer* is too much; at some point, you're going to take a pointer into Somebody Else's Memory that you are borrowing for stack/locals.
< 1755720036 448851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the whole Three Star Programmer thing that I named the language after, isn't it?
< 1755720057 527458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In E or Monte, if x is a local name then `x` dereferences, `&x` gets the slot, and `&&x` gets the binding. There isn't a generic operator & which takes any value; it must be a name in scope, so `&42` doesn't do anything.
< 1755720066 56814 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think so!
< 1755720100 621497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Rust you can use the borrow operator & on anything, if necessary it creates a temporary and gives you a reference to that
< 1755720119 965956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can write &&&42 and get a reference to a reference to a reference to 42
< 1755720129 389678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure I agree with this
< 1755720168 387396 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We have the same ergonomics. m`var x := whatever; f(&x)` will pass a mutable slot, and m`def f(&x) { x += 5; ... }` accepts the mutable slot and sets it up in the local scope as something that can be mutated with augmented assignments.
< 1755720169 927082 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the program will be rejected if the compiler can't make the reference live long enough, but there are at least two ways in which the lifetime of the reference can be extended, so it works in more cases than it looks like it sohuld be able to)
< 1755720231 323255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the things I dislike most about Rust is how much it does that's implicit in the syntax, in order to try to make the program meaningful
< 1755720234 819276 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can write it explicitly but usually don't
< 1755720291 546528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, pattern matches have a whole lot of dereferencing and referencing added implicitly – you can be explicit but usually aren't – and I basically end up relying on compiler error messages to work out what is or isn't a reference when working with htem
< 1755720392 753625 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, me too.
< 1755720753 545885 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1755720955 830850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: thanks for your earlier link to the paper about how to hybridise tracing and reference counting – the content feels like information that is beneficial for me to know
< 1755720989 651231 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No biggie. It made a big splash in the JIT world a few years ago but doesn't seem to have become more popular.
< 1755724303 991103 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Rust only shares C++'s memory model with respect to atomics/multithreading, I think" => also in that both allow memory to be in an uninitialized state where it's UB to read even as a type like uint8_t where any combination of bits is valid, even when writing the same memory would be fine
< 1755724507 707651 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in both C++ and rust if a vector allocates memory with more capacity than size, the memory will be in that uninitialized state, and the program has to make sure to initialize it before use
> 1755724605 1673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Maybegolf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163657 5* 03DumbEsolangsOrgUser 5* (+144) 10Created page with "{{Wip}} [[Maybegolf]] is [[esoteric programming language]] for golf, emphasis on the multitude of commands and the unification of some into one."
< 1755724843 754507 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that you can get uninitialized memory in GHC Haskell if you ask for it, with some sort of primitive Array type. It's not possible in Monte or Pony though.
< 1755724883 861844 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :E and Monte actually have some determinism requirements. E never quite figured out randomness and Monte requires it to be passed around like an RNG monad.
> 1755725040 776483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163658&oldid=163646 5* 03Corbin 5* (+948) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Define Diophantine equations and sets. I need to figure out whether listability (effective enumerability) and Davis normal form need to be mentioned here.
< 1755726121 488958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : also in that both allow memory to be in an uninitialized state where it's UB to read even as a type like uint8_t where any combination of bits is valid, even when writing the same memory would be fine ← so although Rust and C++ both do that, the rules are actually different!
< 1755726149 16263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C++, memory that is initialised using an object of one type can't be read through a pointer of a different type
< 1755726163 789221 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so memory isn't just initialised, it's initialised with a particular type
< 1755726183 439097 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust's rule is different, memory that has been initialised using any type can be read using any other type that can hold the same range of values, except for padding bytes
< 1755726194 375687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, e.g., Rust lets you read the second byte of a float as u8 and C++ doesn't
< 1755726219 384054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that C++ needs a special case for "the type that memcpy uses to copy bytes around"
< 1755726226 262329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas Rust can just use u8
< 1755726271 393864 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :" I think atomics are mostly only necessary in cases where you need blocking-free algorithms" => I think there's at least one more use case. Suppose you have a lot of small objects that are rarely shared and rarely written, but you can't prove that they aren't shared so you have to use some thread-safety for them. An inter-thread mutex in every object would be logical, but as the objects are
< 1755726277 807289 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :small it would consume more memory and might even use more bandwidth to the memory shared between cpu threads, so accessing the objects atomically is probably better.
< 1755726277 844160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference leads to some interesting consequences sometimes, e.g. in Rust's model it matters whether bytes are part of a pointer or not, so if you, e.g., reverse the bytes in a pointer by reading them as u8, then reverse them again, there's some issue with whether you're allowed to read from the resulting pointer or not
< 1755726280 809694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'm not really sure about this.
< 1755726285 906640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the answer changed to "you aren't" to "you are" recently
< 1755726294 222622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* changed from "you aren't" to "you are"
< 1755726372 883186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah, so C++ has more complicated rules about what memory counts as uninitialized. true. I don't understand those rules much because they don't come up often in practice.
< 1755726379 370485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least not in the code that I write.
< 1755726402 652440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: occasionally I need to type-pun and have to remember the legal way to do that
< 1755726424 465140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C, I believe that memcpy is sufficient, as long as you memcpy the actual bytes you are reinterpreting and not a pointer to them
< 1755726451 412312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Rust, transmuting a pointer is sufficient (and transmuting a reference is OK as long as you match size and alignment and lifetime)
< 1755726522 378581 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah
< 1755726704 529113 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755726718 267388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1755726783 412693 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re Deref/DerefMut, yes, I don't think there's much semantics they're supposed to represent, so you'd rarely write code that's generic over the trait. those traits are there to allow user code to define new types that can use a syntactic sugar of omitting the splat when you're calling a method. it's sort of like the Mul trait, which is there so you can define new types that can use the infix *
< 1755726789 420230 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :operator for syntactic convenience, not because there's some general semantics that all Mul types satisfy.
< 1755726842 185537 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1755726867 690563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: is that a generic "you"? I personally would write such code but I may be the only person who does
< 1755726949 833338 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :" In E or Monte, if x is a local name then `x` dereferences, `&x` gets the slot, and `&&x` gets the binding. There isn't a generic operator & which takes any value" => is that like perl package variables where you can use $x by value, use $x by reference (including assigning to it), or use *x by reference, but you can't go deeper.
< 1755726952 213871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/129147#issuecomment-3026624324
< 1755727000 526614 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, generic you
< 1755727036 614766 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the link is me arguing that method receivers that are generic over Deref should be allowed, with caveats, and explaining why I want it)
< 1755727060 355658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately I have to post it on Github because that's where Rust's issue tracker is
< 1755727392 809779 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Rust lets you read the second byte of a float as u8" => not really related to the memory models, but fortunately Rust added a safe high-level wrapper for that now. and you might need to use it because the standard library still doesn't have a frickin' ldexp/scalbn or frexp/ilogb builtin. nor good ways to strigify floats for that matter.
< 1755727633 632888 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though float/int transmutes are an important enough special case that the library functions are worth it for other reasons even if you have a working ldexp/frexp like in C++
< 1755727672 150071 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Same sort of idea, I think, yes. I don't fully understand the whole Perl/PHP way of looking up names; there's probably a piece of history that I don't know.
< 1755727683 678878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, float/int transmutes are in the standard library (and safe), I was quite impressed when I saw them
< 1755727693 636930 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to use them for serializing floats, manipulating nans, and more
< 1755727695 416213 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But E does heavily borrow from Perl. Some of E's pattern matching comes from the =~ operator, for example.
< 1755727720 363318 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: piece of history => yes
< 1755727747 698771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I even used them recently, except that I was writing a C program so I had to do the transmute with memcpy instead
< 1755727790 453857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the context was a "how many digits are there in this integer" function, which was being used in memory allocation code that calculated how long a string would eventually be when formatted)
< 1755727805 301962 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: anyway, even for perl lexically local variables where that history isn't relevant, you can take a reference to such a local variable, but taking a reference to a reference isn't very useful, you'd just get a reference to a temporary and that temporary would be different each time
< 1755727831 412394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in Rust, you can't normally ==-compare things unless they have the same level of indirection
< 1755727856 619938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so when you end up with a double indirection (e.g. when iterating over a list of references without consuming it), you often end up with code like |x| x = &&6
< 1755727890 192694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are various ways to avoid this situation happening but sometimes the double reference is the most obvious way to express it
< 1755727899 166762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is, of course, another way in which Rust fails at referential transparency)
< 1755727920 953987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, in C++, prefix && has a different meaning to two prefix &s
< 1755728775 109106 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9c04:acc7:66ee:fca9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755731416 527428 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1755734223 707230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crazy?14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163659 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+38979) 10Created page with "{{Wrongtitle|title=Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a room. A rubber room. A rubber room with rats. And rats make me crazy.Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a room. A rubber room. A rubber room with rats. And rats make me crazy.Crazy? I was crazy on
> 1755734438 189351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crazy?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163660&oldid=163659 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+0) 10fixed incorrect category
> 1755734506 265924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crazy?14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163661&oldid=163660 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (-149) 10
< 1755736206 174244 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1755737651 603420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mouldyair14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163662 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+169) 10Created page with "i make useless esolangs sometimes, sometimes i make useless websites instead. #FREESMR esolangs i made:
[[BadEsolangIMadeForABet | BEIMFAB]]
[[Crazy?]]
"
< 1755737890 919958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755744343 445557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163663&oldid=163519 5* 03Ian-nai 5* (+12) 10
< 1755753223 961042 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1755753364 580712 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755753974 980592 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755753988 428131 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs * :Hooloovoo
< 1755755077 444427 :Hoolootwo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1755755178 202588 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755755822 322654 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1755755910 466007 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755756547 514081 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1755756909 115342 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755757571 943326 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755757743 388954 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755758368 351006 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755760170 446256 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1755760522 604705 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755761761 353165 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755761835 634553 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1755763093 280247 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1755767891 508121 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755768515 152435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163664&oldid=162547 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* tab */
> 1755768866 568231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163665&oldid=163664 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-44) 10/* Commands */
> 1755768930 717163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163666&oldid=163665 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10/* guh */
< 1755769198 499386 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1755769226 780309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163667&oldid=163666 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+36) 10/* Commands */
> 1755769281 194533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163668&oldid=163667 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-13) 10/* Commands */
> 1755769364 475808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Guh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163669&oldid=163668 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-33) 10/* Commands */
> 1755769406 10450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstoppable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163670 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+831) 10Created page with "'''Unstoppable''' is a two-dimensional esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]. Name comes from the lack of NOPs. ==Description== The language has a stack and a program on an infinite repeating grid *0 and 1 - pushh a corresponding digit
> 1755769417 621313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstoppable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163671&oldid=163670 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10
> 1755769450 595889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163672&oldid=163653 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+18) 10/* 2025 */
< 1755769662 245374 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755770313 283481 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755773237 40981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Universal Turing-completness Proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163673&oldid=108799 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-2338) 10Blanked the page
< 1755775497 326133 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1755775713 672298 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755776150 575836 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.58.23.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1755776400 642000 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755777895 381226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163674&oldid=144778 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1) 10/* brainfuck in Uppercase=Lowercase */ fixed an error
> 1755777912 468974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uppercase=Lowercase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163675&oldid=142683 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+2) 10/* brainfuck interpreter */
> 1755779744 291576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163676&oldid=121660 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+28) 10/* Commands */ I am not sure what ~x~ meant but it was most likely a pop command
< 1755779911 961698 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1755780357 955963 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755783186 925859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755783443 228059 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755783599 769217 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755786251 957647 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755790348 982844 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755792057 847011 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755793596 5857 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Single-precision floating-point numbers are the kind most often used in
< 1755793596 138570 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : calculations, since "real-world" applications usually need numbers with
< 1755793596 205368 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : fractional parts. (Prices are a good example.)"
< 1755793599 258089 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/basic/qblearn/
< 1755794417 367492 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :1988… the x87 FPU was still a separate product
< 1755794565 149296 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Double precision may have been too slow to use as a default type without hardware support
< 1755794777 120862 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :So beware: NOT expression is false only if expression evaluates to a value
< 1755794777 245495 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : of -1. If you define Boolean constants or variables for use in your
< 1755794777 279817 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs : programs, use -1 for true.
< 1755794782 794625 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/basic/qbprog/
< 1755795448 565373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Microsoft's later versions of BASIC also used -1 for true
< 1755795461 589443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it may have been intended to avoid needing separate logical and bitwise operators
< 1755795502 696753 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general, -1 for true seems to be the most hardware-friendly implementation (you also have weirdnesses like x86_64 using 1 for true in setcc instructions but -1 for true in SIMD)
< 1755795802 542479 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I saw a computer running Cassette BASIC recently (I think they just didn't have a floppy for it to boot anything), so that sort of revitalized my interest. Didn't know QBasic&QuickBASIC had a way to define custom types
< 1755795841 223580 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or that QB64 and forks aren't as backwards compatible as I assumed (no DEF FN support, which exists in QBasic/QuickBASIC even if not recommended). And PC-BASIC as a GW-BASIC clone
< 1755796017 141770 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know BBC BASIC and Locomotive BASIC were pretty well liked and better for structured programming, I wonder how they compare to QuickBASIC
> 1755796652 391166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163677&oldid=163658 5* 03Corbin 5* (+956) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Still puzzling this out. Robinson 1952 doesn't actually do what Matiyasevich says it does? The definition of JR set differs between authors? The other two papers are paywalled and I'll have to grab them later.
< 1755796798 629297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I still have to figure out what happened in the 1950s, but at least I understand the M part of MRDP.
< 1755797696 858206 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1755799795 877658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163678&oldid=163677 5* 03Corbin 5* (+460) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Clean out the irrelevant and give a decent story. References include three good perspectives; from D, M, and R no less!
< 1755802853 743408 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-180-210.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
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> 1755804657 894492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Algebraic Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163679&oldid=163647 5* 03Corbin 5* (-10) 10/* Computability */ Bluelink.
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< 1755808081 260382 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :" It's possible, as any computer science student will tell you, to write entire programs without ever using a GOTO statement. That may be carrying structured programming too far, but the structured IF is a much-needed addition to BASIC.
< 1755808081 401438 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"
< 1755808084 353611 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue80/ibm_personal_computing_quickbasic.php
< 1755809825 215673 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: structured IF is great, but the syntax chosen for BASIC also sucks. If I ever make my BASIC dialect (unlikely, because I'll instead use a non-BASIC language for whatever purpose the BASIC would serve), I'll add an alternate syntax that's just WHEN...WEND looking like WHILE...WEND but it's a conditional
< 1755809842 797825 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and WHEN...WELSE...WEND if you want an else branch
< 1755809990 429241 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be getting history wrong here, but as far as I understand, BASIC started out with a structured FOR but no strucured IF because it just copied what Fortran did at the time
< 1755810013 876682 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755810017 931245 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
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< 1755810355 470468 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not a lot of BASICs with built in matrix manipulation, right?
< 1755810363 140792 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Besides the original
< 1755811476 957803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755811514 981551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, BASIC's syntax is bad, but I don't think WHEN…WEND would be an improvement :-D
< 1755811572 530352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, I think the standard loop in Fortran is DO which is even weirder syntax-wise
< 1755811601 847479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the loop header specifies the line number where the loop ends, there isn't any particular marking for the end of the loop so you just have to remember that its particular line number has been marked as a loop end
< 1755811615 836346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this mechanism is often compared to COME FROM
< 1755813317 140839 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that's only old Fortran, but I don't know if Fortran fixed it before or after BASIC started its FOR..NEXT loops
< 1755813330 45908 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, that totally sounds like COME FROM
< 1755814384 865222 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755814419 424033 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know they did that in Fortran, but some binary formats will indicate the end of a block in a similar way
< 1755814450 496487 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another variant of COME FROM would be that the line must be marked as one which is used by COME FROM without saying what line will come from that one
< 1755815188 901965 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1755816205 356741 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've used disassemblers which mark jump targets in the disassembly, it's sometimes useful
< 1755816214 909908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe the ideal is for both ends of a jump to mark the other
< 1755817131 26905 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aren't both ends marked in basically every language, with the big exception of early BASICs that force every line to have a line number because that's what the editor uses to refer to them?
< 1755817160 193356 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one end (usually the target) is marked by a line label or line number, the other end by a statement like go to or go sub
< 1755817185 534119 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(often behind a conditional)
< 1755817290 938243 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is that BASIC uses line numbers for a dual purpose: for the editor, and as jump targets, so you can't easily tell which lines are jump targets
< 1755817321 302960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only old BASIC that is
< 1755818287 482783 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had used in assembly language for the jump target to specify where it jumps from in some cases, which is similar, so it is not only in a disassembler. Usually I think only one side needs to specify which side is the other side, although both sides will be marked as from or to
> 1755822991 695412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECRET PUZZLE!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163680 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+865) 10Created page with "SECRET PUZZLE is a simple text based programing language made by [[user:Mouldyair]]. ==SYNTAX== to write a program in SECRET PUZZLE you simply type the program into a blank text document, documents can use any unicode characters, have any number of lines, with e
> 1755823078 29626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mouldyair14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163681&oldid=163662 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+24) 10
< 1755823849 318369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: normally both ends are marked but the jump target doesn't say where the jump source is, just that it is a jump target
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< 1755824960 43852 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, they both say it just as much, there's a freeform label that's the same in both the jump and the target, so if there's no weird shenanigans like computed goto then the difference between a goto-label and a label-comefrom is just the keywords. though you could say that a label doesn't say how many gotos are pointing there, so you don't know when to stop searching for gotos.
< 1755824985 300995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's an interesting viewpoint
< 1755825010 141460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I guess the interesting part of the design space is "linear labels" which you can only jump to from one location in the code
< 1755825032 44888 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meaning that if there are multiple jumps to the same location, you have multiple labels next to each other to indicate that
< 1755825044 674572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, that's pretty much what Incident does
< 1755825088 559010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess another asymmetry in most practical languages is that the behaviour of jumping out of scopes is much easier to define than the behaviour of jumping into scopes
< 1755825120 198544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although there are challenges in both directions, and those challenges mirror each other to some extent, dropping an object that shouldn't exist is generally much easier than conjuring an object that should)
< 1755825140 74775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also that for a conditional jump you write the condition before the goto, not before the comefrom, so from that you can tell it's a goto statement
< 1755825210 109577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if condition { label:; } … comefrom label; has the right semantics, but the condition is still on the end you jump from
< 1755825287 738271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doing it at the other end would be something like label:; … nextfrom label; if condition { forget 1; } else { resume 1; }
< 1755825314 37963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is how INTERCAL does conditionals, but I don't think anyone else does, and it's significantly different in the way it works
< 1755825354 910751 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally you'd write comefrom (condition ? label : invalidlabel), though in intercal in particular even the invalid label that never executes has to syntactically exist, and of course you have to write the conditional as an intercal expression which can be inconvenient
< 1755825381 163553 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a modern language with comefrom would just have convenient syntax for a conditional comefrom
< 1755825382 169251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, for a computed comefrom, the label it computes to doesn't have to exist
< 1755825396 27652 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't?
< 1755825399 458287 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice
< 1755825422 380176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a compile time check and you can't figure out what it would compute to at compile time
< 1755825434 32679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if it were a runtime check, it would be hard to define exactly when it should run…)
< 1755825465 238668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that writing the conditional as an INTERCAL expression actually makes things easier, usually
< 1755825480 991213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compared to writing it using a variable-sized resume
< 1755825525 816297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can just do "jump if x is k" by mingling x and a constant, and then numbering the line to match the expected result
< 1755825592 532694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile the variable-sized resume generally requires you to convert the two possibilities to 1 and 2, which is doable but somewhat verbose as it isn't a trivial pair of numbers to produce with bitwise operations
< 1755825720 648370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can't resume 0 because that encounters error type 621)
< 1755825774 888564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although it crosses my mind that a consistent way to resume 0 might be to jump to the line label that had been most recently forgotten
< 1755825777 835729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in an APL-like with come from, you'd use the compress verb to conditionally make the operand of the comefrom an empty array when the condition fails, and in the typical case when you compress a constant label, the interpreter would optimize this to only evaluate the condition at that one label
< 1755825821 951804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mostly think of APL as a functional rather than imperative language, which makes goto/comefrom hard to imagine in it
< 1755825826 465869 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: can't you use FORGET with 0 or 1 instead?
< 1755825837 959385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but that doesn't actually jump anywhere
< 1755825851 460667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, you follow it with a resume 1
< 1755825853 611912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could just use a variable forget followed by a hardcoded resume 1
< 1755825857 999490 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1755825890 510814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now that you mention it, I'm surprised that that isn't done more often
< 1755825971 129864 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not done because next is too easy and is only there for historical reasons, real intercal programmers use only comefrom/nextfrom with possibly the from or the label computed
< 1755826008 578274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I genuinely find computed comefrom easier
< 1755826028 150727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :than the intercal-72 method
< 1755826037 649126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to write, at least – it is probably a little less readable, but it's close)
< 1755826063 108262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the expressions are more readable but they have the "random global side effect" issue that most of the things in INTERCAL do
< 1755826090 431271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL also has computed create, which is underexplored I think
< 1755826093 421684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be good for jump tables
< 1755826173 676760 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there's also abstain/reinstate with a computed target
< 1755826225 673698 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those allowed to abstain/reinstate a nonexistent label?
< 1755826262 573156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think C-INTERCAL allows you to compute the label of abstain/reinstate, but I'm not sure
< 1755826291 11305 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it allows you to compute the *quantity* of abstain, e.g. you can triple-abstain things so that they need to be reinstated three times
< 1755826314 110056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fun fact: this is the first time I stumbled across The Waterfall Model, but I didn't realise it at the time)
< 1755826315 395483 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1755826325 803094 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting
< 1755826371 968220 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't know multiple abstain existed in the language
< 1755826402 552257 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I added it because I was interested in seeing if INTERCAL could be TC even without expressions
> 1755826422 749650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163682 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+1199) 10Created page with "'''Error: not a statement''' is a restricted subset of Java by [[User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff]], which only allows expressions statements that would no
< 1755826428 130986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it seemed like the same sort of thing as computed forget
< 1755826448 367036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
> 1755826452 933933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163683&oldid=161377 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+99) 10
< 1755826508 592000 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it probably is, because there's stash/retreive to conveniently handle a stack of a finite alphabet
< 1755826548 112086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what I ended up with was almost literally The Waterfall Model with different syntax (the only difference is that TWM has undefined behaviour on simultaneous zeroing whereas this has defined behaviour, and I hadn't realised at the time that usual practice would be to keep the abstain counts nonzero almost all the time)
< 1755826583 717773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think stash/retrieve are useful without expressions, because you have no way to set or read the values you're stashing and retrieving
< 1755826606 610964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can you start with a statement multiple abstained, with something like `do not not not not not`?
< 1755826621 641476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, although that's an interesting idea for an extension
< 1755826638 912256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally a double negative in English negates the negative rather than intensifying it
< 1755826652 959087 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you would need to write the not in a language where double negation is stronger negation rather than negated negation
< 1755826655 62293 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you can read the values as a forget or resume count, or by using it as an array index
< 1755826702 571822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :array indexing is an expression
< 1755826708 898824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…as are forget and resume counts
< 1755826709 563591 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you ban that too, right
< 1755826725 62224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I allowed the constant #1 in ABSTAIN #1 FROM
< 1755826733 202476 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assumed you only banned the mingle and select and the prefix bitwise operators
< 1755826734 220949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe bare variables should be allowed too
< 1755826791 167787 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :syntax shouldn't be anything like `do not not` because that would be incompatible with existing syntax in a way that would affect a lot of... uh... production code or something, real world programs
< 1755826828 28885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's currently a syntax error
< 1755826838 644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which, admittedly, could exist in current production programs)
< 1755826958 716207 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! so maybe it wouldn't break many production programs
< 1755826987 43812 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they'd result in different abstain state in some lines, but only in lines that the program wouldn't try to execute
< 1755827021 391559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it's possible that the syntax errors would be being executed
< 1755827042 670780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like DO REINSTATE COMMENTS DO NOT NOT FOO would act differently
< 1755827071 419312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although DO REINSTATE COMMENTS is such a dubious construct I'm not even sure I've remember the syntax for it correctly
< 1755827088 846276 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in this multiple abstain/reinstate extension, is the abstain count capped to zero or more so if you reinstate more times than a statement is abstained then it's clamped to zero abstains?
< 1755827131 839011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's clamped from below at 0 and can go "arbitrarily high" although C-INTERCAL doesn't actually use a bignum type
< 1755827149 218669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, only multiple abstain is supported, you have to reinstate 1 at a time
< 1755827160 377220 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1755827174 439286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strange
< 1755827196 610342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it starts making too much sense, you don't have INTERCAL any more :-D
> 1755827247 418831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GERMAN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163684&oldid=110908 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+2309) 10Introduced an examples section comprehending three incipial members, added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, and supplemented the Implemented page category tag.
< 1755827271 259286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, but sometimes I'm thinking of which of these features could be lifted to a (likely esoteric in the broad sense) language that very much isn't intercal
< 1755827302 431818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, sure
< 1755827319 113193 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't really want to program in intercal, but it can be useful to know ideas added into it in all the extensions
< 1755827336 308344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that case you have all four of goto/comefrom/next/nextfrom, computed line labels everywhere, and full ability to compute abstain/reinstate amounts in addition to resume/forget amounts
< 1755827387 879149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if the language isn't being intentionally perverse, it should probably make resume 0 a no-op, which is the behaviour that would actually be useful
< 1755827468 839871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :("resume" was presumably intentionally named so that resume 0 wouldn't make sense and thus it could be arbitrarily rejected)
< 1755827508 402737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, back when PHP implemented INTERCAL's resume (as "break"), I wonder whether break 0 was an error or a no-op
< 1755827510 148284 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly repeated line labels such that it's an error to go to a line label that appears multiple times but you can abstain/reinstate all statements with a certain label at the same time
< 1755827536 838348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it got removed when someone pointed out that it's almost never a good idea to use a computed expression as the number of levels to break
< 1755827542 351138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it used to be possible
< 1755827561 842583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh yes, repeated labels would make sense
< 1755827570 17529 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but a goto should just go to all of them, creating multiple threads
< 1755827577 697471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's what multiple come froms do)
< 1755827664 532498 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the esoteric syntax; in sane syntax if the label is repeated then when you refer to it you have to specify if you want to refer to the previous line or the next line with that label, so that you can use short label names locally
< 1755827695 177893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, the 1b 1f thing from gas
< 1755827709 919014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually really like that method of doing things – it doesn't nest well but it otherwise composes well
< 1755827716 199835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that makes more sense if you can't use numeric expressions as computed labels
< 1755827750 949977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe negative numbers jump backwards and positive numbers jump forwards?
< 1755827881 561422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm currently thinking that the columns serve as variable names esoteric language (which I'm naming "Enchain") will probably have gotos as one of its main control structure, in a somewhat similar way than the python goto extension that I had been thinking about.
< 1755828022 877186 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how this would work is that there's a builtin syntax to make a label, which sets a variable to that label, but that assignment is executed at the start of the innermost surrounding function, not where the label builtin is written in the program, and there are other builtins that jump or conditionally jump if an integer operand is zero or nonzero
< 1755828059 891778 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with maybe even an on-goto that takes any number of label operands and an index into them
< 1755828124 683136 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this wouldn't be the only control structure, because I absolutely want to have user-defined functions with multiple parameters and multiple return values,
< 1755828154 145587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, so Zig has a command "defer" which, when encountered, runs the content of its block at the end of the scope – this feels like a mirror of it, it runs the command at the beginning of the scope
< 1755828157 72835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I may or may not have a simple conditional that adds a condition to either one statement, or a condition to decide between two adjacent statements, based on an integer
< 1755828162 348474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm not sure if there's a way to mirror the "when encountered" part
< 1755828208 881150 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't really think of it like that
< 1755828246 40903 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because in the common case you'll never reassign that variable, it just behaves as a constant label
< 1755828258 470975 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though you are allowed to reassign it, in which case yes, the assignment is executed at the start
< 1755828351 476570 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in the common case, python already has syntactic effects that act from the start of the function: an equals sign assignment marks a variable as lexically local to the function, and it's lexically local even syntactically earlier than where that assignment is
< 1755828408 487953 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even in an ordinary language like C, a goto can refer to a label that hasn't executed yet
< 1755828441 811799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vttoth's W is actually unusual in this respect, because its labels are assigned only when they execute, which seriously limits how you can use them
< 1755828460 636152 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can use W's labels to write a loop, but not easily to write a simple conditional
< 1755828499 489438 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is deliberate design in W, but in most languages you don't want that
< 1755828731 219413 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also rust just lets you write `fn main() { println!("{}", M); const M: &str = "hello"; }` and it just works, you refer to M syntactically before you define it
< 1755828749 538472 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't even have to predeclare it like you'd have to predeclare a function or class in C++
< 1755828946 176837 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, C setjmp/longjmp also can't be jumped to until they've been set
< 1755828977 96690 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had used something like the DO RESUME #2 of INTERCAL in a program written in BASIC once, since if you RETURN from a GOSUB then you can optionally specify what label to return to, instead of necessarily where it was called from. (There is also a RESUME command in BASIC, to return from an error handler, and also can optionally specify what label to return to.)
< 1755829052 327414 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and even my idea for python goto and the current idea for Enchain would have some restrictions: you wouldn't be allowed to jump into a function.
< 1755829104 85270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, there is something about the python goto why you can legitimately think of it as executing the assignment at the start of the function:
< 1755829194 441404 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when the assignment happens it behaves kind of like a scheme exit/cc in that it saves a reference to the current stack frame into that variable, so you can pass that variable into nested functions (even recursive entries to the same function) and you can goto that value to jump out from many scopes deep
< 1755829217 157153 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can't jump into a function, but you can jump out of as many as you wish
< 1755829336 949663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should go to bed
< 1755829342 451086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1755829411 483265 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have some doubts about the python thing because I realized that there are a lot of details about how python works that I don't understand, and while they don't come up in normal practical programs, they do come up when I want to add features to python
< 1755829434 392703 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think the python goto thing is sound, and in the worst case it can be added to some other similar dynamic language
> 1755833842 842856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163685&oldid=163682 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+11) 10/* Limitations */
> 1755834561 819571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECRET PUZZLE!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163686&oldid=163680 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+126) 10/* SYNTAX */
< 1755839333 396059 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755839354 191681 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1755845594 507987 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755845906 338408 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755848844 941198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unifuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163687 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+4282) 10Created page with "Unifuck (a portmanteau of Unicode and [[brainfuck]]) is a Brainfuck derivative made by [[User:SzszszszszszszsZ]] where the regular instructions are changed this way: {| class="wikitable" |- ! ''n''%8 is !! Original |- | 0 || + |- | 1 || - |- | 2 || < |- | 3 |
> 1755848895 971300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SzszszszszszszsZ14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163688&oldid=163521 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+24) 10
< 1755849016 198838 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1755850746 79375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* 10New user account
< 1755851701 784333 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755851750 787258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163689&oldid=163636 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+269) 10/* Introductions */
< 1755852042 999898 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755852242 458239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hasin Israk Toaha14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163690 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+6785) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tonnyi |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Hasin Israk Toaha|Hasin Israk Toaha]] |year=2025 |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=.ton }} '''Tonnyi''' is an esoteric programming langu
> 1755853860 573384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hasin Israk Toaha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163691&oldid=163690 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+124) 10
> 1755855761 883339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Waso 5* 10New user account
> 1755856447 697276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163692&oldid=163648 5* 03RixTheTyrunt 5* (+18) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1755856485 609023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163693&oldid=163689 5* 03Waso 5* (+435) 10Added me
> 1755856518 502697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163694&oldid=163693 5* 03Waso 5* (+2) 10
> 1755857167 102237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163695&oldid=140168 5* 03Waso 5* (+115) 10Added a Bitflip algorithm
> 1755857445 366087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163696&oldid=163695 5* 03Waso 5* (-2) 10
> 1755858023 750875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unstoppable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163697&oldid=163671 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+12) 10I'll try proving soon
< 1755861226 114533 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1755861628 516804 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755861695 971166 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :suppose I give in advance a finite alphabet H with an involution R : H→H. consider the following class of objects: finite simple graphs, represented as finite simple symmetric digraphs, with each arc marked by a weight from H, with the restriction that if an arc (u,v) has weight h then its reverse (v,u) must have weight R(h). what would be a good
< 1755861696 469585 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :concise name for these objects? I can't just call them finite simple graphs with weighted edges, because the weight of an edge may have a direction.
> 1755861832 760367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Inputbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163698&oldid=148364 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1800) 10Blanked the page
< 1755861867 660493 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1755862012 950930 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755862096 280391 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe, as a first simpler question before we tackle the whole thing, say I also give a finite simple graph in advance, and I consider the set of weightings (functions from the set of arcs to H) satisfying the above reversing condition. what would you call these weightings?
> 1755862188 929394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163699&oldid=163674 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck in Uppercase=Lowercase */
> 1755862237 482240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uppercase=Lowercase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163700&oldid=163675 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck interpreter */
> 1755863247 460812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* 10moved [[02User:HaleyHalcyon/Sandbox/Sonjalang10]] to [[Sonjalang]]: Feels complete enough to me
< 1755864514 804621 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION → Bathtub 😌 🐋
< 1755866793 586213 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755867397 31955 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1755867725 251491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163703&oldid=141246 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+327) 10/* Translation to Kak */ If this is valid, tell me in discord at mrglebsun or change the page category from Unimplemented to Implemented
> 1755867867 87306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163704&oldid=163703 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* Implementations */ did some modifacation to match the syntax of the language
< 1755868231 527074 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755868246 926129 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror JOIN #esolangs strerror :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1755868286 953388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163705&oldid=140964 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+41) 10
< 1755872365 566946 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755873232 332924 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1332
< 1755873234 596352 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1755873304 136551 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1755873339 156349 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep, that's exactly what I wanted to say
< 1755875144 813496 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755876099 407560 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755877153 288471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Diophantine equation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163706&oldid=154618 5* 03Corbin 5* (+751) 10Combine some material from [[computable]] and normalize the presentation of equations. Lessons learned from Wilf et al, "A=B" https://www2.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AeqB.html
> 1755877212 911191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163707&oldid=163678 5* 03Corbin 5* (-832) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Move the relevant intro to [[Diophantine equation]].
< 1755877529 546564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1755878037 887399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163708&oldid=163707 5* 03Corbin 5* (+29) 10/* Via Diophantine equations */ Fix tiny typos which invalidated the maths.
< 1755878234 772335 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755880589 363120 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163709&oldid=163694 5* 03LOLrReD 5* (+113) 10introduced LOLrReD
< 1755881629 289613 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755882985 366456 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755886113 15959 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *, happy Weekends!
< 1755888605 151517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1755890203 386119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163710 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+325) 10Create page
> 1755890293 293660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163711&oldid=163663 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+47) 10Added TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU
< 1755890664 505626 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`slashlearn rush job//A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
< 1755890670 838129 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Learned 'rush job': A Rush job (named after Stockton Rush) is completing a task while cutting corners at all cost.
> 1755891144 770547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kak-14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163712&oldid=163704 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-2) 10/* Implementations */ i guess it's accurate
> 1755892390 409667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163713&oldid=163710 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+2691) 10Extended
> 1755892592 520628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163714&oldid=163713 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+437) 10Extended library and fixed grammar issue
> 1755893751 600007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163715&oldid=163714 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+2505) 10Finished documentation and added a hello world program. This is no longer a work in progress!
> 1755893898 540624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163716&oldid=163715 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+84) 10Altered hello world program to make it more readable
> 1755894109 254015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vyxal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163717&oldid=86395 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Links */
> 1755894138 982294 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vyxal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163718&oldid=163717 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Links */
> 1755894298 367669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163719&oldid=163716 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+584) 10Added abbreviation and pronounciation
> 1755894327 548338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163720&oldid=163719 5* 03TeraByte 5* (-1) 10Splelnig is hrad
< 1755895094 136737 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1755895122 981272 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1755896502 950232 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I could say it's a symmetric digraph with antisymmetric arc weights
< 1755897897 7605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh you could say it's antisymmetric and justify that by looking at the adjacency matrix
< 1755897978 78157 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe a pun on "undirected": antidirected graph
< 1755898040 377096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm assuming you're going to actually define the term first. I haven't checked whether that has an established meaning... it might.)
> 1755898526 926188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163721&oldid=163641 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-58) 10
< 1755899497 526760 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755899527 613650 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :timeloop that resets when I say <|end|>
< 1755901240 112656 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yam04
< 1755901268 220798 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi Esolangers
< 1755901385 535006 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to post the version 6.0 of the hypercomplex numberr list
< 1755901412 624734 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://forums.futura-sciences.com/attachments/mathematiques-superieur/511512d1755817142-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-hipernombre_6_0.pdf
< 1755901470 484976 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It 's a list of mathematical references, about different aspect of numbers
< 1755901529 378399 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to recommend some mathematical references do it at https://forums.futura-sciences.com/mathematiques-superieur/959505-structures-de-numerotation-inhabituelles-exotiques-6-0-a.html
> 1755901573 282360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Purplelimon 5* 10New user account
< 1755901614 858908 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Best Regardds
< 1755901624 427422 :yam04!~yam04@191.112.94.169 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1755901873 855966 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1542:a509:831e:a9dc QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1755902050 577005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163722&oldid=163709 5* 03Purplelimon 5* (+167) 10
< 1755902724 42595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :iovoid: no, if I wanted to go even shorter I'd just omit the "symmetric" and hope that "antisymmetric edge weights" implies that the digraph is symmetric.
< 1755902801 286427 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1755902803 191168 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wrong ping, sorry
< 1755902805 101156 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ^
< 1755903179 660589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah but I wanted to drop the mention of edge weights :P
< 1755903230 677460 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One could mix in "weighted" though to bring them back.)
< 1755903958 906353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was proposing terms, rather than self-contained descriptions)
< 1755903964 393590 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you drop the edge weight then these are just finite simple graphs, aka finite simple symmetric digraphs. I don't need a new name for that.
< 1755904010 815443 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(some people represent graphs differently than in terms of symmetric digraphs, but here the digraph representation is convenient.)
< 1755904048 202005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Defintion: A weighted graph is called antidirectional if for each egde in the graph the opposite edge is also an edge with the opposite weight.
< 1755904061 205815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something like that.
< 1755904132 572008 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"antidirected" appears to have a meaning though which may make this confusing
< 1755904139 691630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm spitballing here.
< 1755904211 841857 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what either of "antidirectional" or "antidirected" mean
< 1755904268 761296 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Of course. The idea was to define it.
< 1755904274 685223 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think I'm satisfied with "antisymmetric weight function"
< 1755904284 400210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I said, it was supposed to be a term, not a description.
< 1755904309 117052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also did not expect you to actually adopt it.
< 1755904313 252255 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though not entirely
< 1755904322 318289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was just a thought.
< 1755904369 455799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because antisymmetric is supposed to mean that the weight of the reverse arc is the negative of the weight of the arc, but I'm not sure R can be considered a negation when it has multiple fixed points
< 1755904388 557053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently "antidirected" is used (in some niche, not widely) for graphs that have no directed paths of length 2.
< 1755904411 901604 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't think "hermitian" would work better either
< 1755904428 96753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel that it's fine to generalize it to an involution.
< 1755904439 795324 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: wouldn't no directed paths of length 2 just mean an oriented graph, at least among simple digraphs?
< 1755904501 956562 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it rules out A --> B --> C
< 1755904515 574962 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you said path, not cycle!
< 1755904524 910876 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then is it just a bipartite digraph?
< 1755904546 341301 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, a digraph from which there's a homomorphism to the grpah with a single arc
< 1755904548 236485 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, I think so. Well, with some ambiguity for unconnected vertices.
< 1755904571 817156 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just looking (very selectively) at https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.00769
< 1755904587 537333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's one of the hits for "antidirected".
< 1755904597 36468 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It has no bearing on this discussion otherwise.
> 1755905115 801401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163723&oldid=163683 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-35) 10
> 1755905166 182974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163724&oldid=163685 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-1) 10/* A basic program */
> 1755906634 31079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163725&oldid=163724 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+257) 10/* So how do you do anything? */
> 1755907144 413468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163726&oldid=163725 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+23) 10/* Limitations */
> 1755907200 872790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163727&oldid=163726 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+31) 10/* Limitations */
> 1755907777 111970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163728&oldid=163727 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-38) 10
> 1755907804 954678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error: not a statement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163729&oldid=163728 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+992) 10
> 1755908143 386538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* 10New user account
> 1755908840 931332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163730&oldid=163722 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* (+154) 10
< 1755912106 878798 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1755912113 907220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163731&oldid=163721 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+5) 10
> 1755915400 222606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Streamix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163732 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* (+1527) 10Created page with "Streamix is a [[brainfuck]] based esolang. All I/O goes only on streams. Also, all instructions are ASCII-lowercase. == General == === Memory === Memory in Streamix is array of 16-bit cells. It has infinite size, so interpreter should extend it sometimes. Current
> 1755916141 214534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Streamix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163733&oldid=163732 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* (+353) 10
> 1755916832 228460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163734&oldid=163711 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* (+15) 10
< 1755922339 846356 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755922352 22512 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
> 1755926175 997142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163735&oldid=162792 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+173) 10
> 1755926512 484607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pyline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163736&oldid=150008 5* 03Jan jelo 5* (+53) 10
> 1755929133 354682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pyline14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163737&oldid=163736 5* 03Jan jelo 5* (+16) 10
> 1755929176 430961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Nope. derivatives14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163738&oldid=161633 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+67) 10
< 1755934427 941461 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755937181 314929 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755938449 151673 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755939437 97394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tonnyi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163739 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+6873) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Tonnyi |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:Hasin Israk Toaha]] |year=2025 |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=.ton }} '''Tonnyi''' is an esoteric programming language and educational interpreter cr
< 1755941024 409503 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1755941465 300120 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1755941975 299055 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755942210 200420 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755942673 482725 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.58.23.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1755945279 397909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163740&oldid=162177 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+53) 10/* I subscribed you on B-station. */ new section
< 1755948315 32994 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755948361 483304 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1755948935 164520 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755949666 409122 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755952115 767897 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755952640 846627 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755952657 574437 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1755954163 394522 :[iovoid]!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :timeloop that resets when I say <|end|>
< 1755954168 686040 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1755954212 260221 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1755954230 673394 :[iovoid]!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid NICK :iovoid
< 1755954610 571619 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1755954794 6453 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755955966 770469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163741&oldid=163740 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+100) 10/* I subscribed you on B-station. */
< 1755956038 253369 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755956359 51661 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755957205 993849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163742&oldid=161041 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+540) 10
> 1755957230 836720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Cycwin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163743&oldid=163741 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+38) 10
< 1755959241 664796 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1755960282 340181 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1755960312 633413 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1755963041 671733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163744&oldid=163734 5* 03Hasin Israk Toaha 5* (+13) 10/* T */
< 1755965255 955037 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1755965889 526970 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1755965927 975094 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org
< 1755965927 980946 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
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> 1755969909 354482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03I don't like programming 5* 10New user account
> 1755970220 54770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163745&oldid=163730 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+190) 10
< 1755970305 594855 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"I support [person who immediately chafed at wiki rules]" is an interesting first message.
< 1755970573 968725 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1755970838 178964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I don't like programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163746 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+279) 10Created page with "Yes, i dont like programming. and I don't intend to love at all! i will create programming language... wait, but i dont like programming? i wont create programming language!!! but... i will create esolang. maybe. ....no!!! how t
< 1755974247 570772 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1755976710 514717 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1755978410 904247 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is a bit weird; no edits from either of them too.
> 1755979030 818542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I don't like programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163747 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+236) 10Created page with "WHAT WAS THE POINT OF EVEN JOINING THIS SITE IF YOU DON'T LIKE PROGRAMING?~~~"
> 1755979146 414333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163748&oldid=163744 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ arranged in order
< 1755979162 919642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh yeah, it might be a troll campaign, and Ractangle just took the bait. :P
< 1755979386 959032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1755979441 683881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's obviously an alt but I can't immediately tell who it is
< 1755979469 361546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, perhaps, I can imagine someone getting annoyed enough at the wiki rules that they persuade a friend to join up to help them complain
< 1755980004 419958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the end it hardly matters. There's a chance that this will end up with disruptive edits that need cleanup but it's premature to worry about that :P
> 1755980792 803009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I don't like programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163749&oldid=163747 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+452) 10
< 1755981117 384499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For me, it's more about the balance between inclusionism and anti-vandalism. I assume most new users just want to tag the local graffiti wall, and that's something we culturally accept as the price of inclusionism.
< 1755981298 39237 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1755981381 943532 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1755982109 968697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Streamix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163750&oldid=163733 5* 03Iamnotanuser 5* (-15) 10
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< 1755989306 693631 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
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< 1755996995 648725 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, I think I need two sorts of pattern-matching syntax for two different sorts of free monoids, one packed and one unpacked. Like, strings vs lists.
< 1755997041 914194 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To match a list, I want something like [Start..., Patt1, 'literal', Patt2, End...] but for a string I guess I need something like Start... Patt1 'literal' Patt2 End...
< 1755997097 467913 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Juxtaposition is concatenation, yes, but it's only *one* sort of concatenation. I can either concat lists or strings that way, but not both. It seems like string concatenation is the better pick given the history of syntax?
< 1755999371 327271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure what you mean by packed vs. unpacked here
< 1755999410 747639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this the "search for a substring vs. search for an element" problem?
< 1756001103 247130 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1756001137 996459 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1756002951 862777 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, same problem. I'm currently pondering the concrete syntax; I think that my semantics already cover the search.
< 1756003075 144304 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unrelated: yet another person realizes that FizzBuzz is an I/O problem https://github.com/nrposner/fizzcrate
< 1756003082 978327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think most languages which have solved this problem do it using a spread operator
< 1756003111 969489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that causes a list-like thing to be treated by its surroundings as multiple elements rather than a single element
< 1756003128 113440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, there isn't agreement on what to call it (I've seen both * and ...)
< 1756003167 678510 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one nice thing about using ... for it is that it mirrors the use of ... in varargs, which is basically an anti-spread operator that bundles multiple arguments into a single list
< 1756003232 365793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl solves the problem using its sigils, @x is always a list and spreads, $x is always a single element and doesn't spread
< 1756003244 311287 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do have a flattening operator, but the semantics won't permit a generic spread. Instead I have to build a little list-of-lists and flatten multiple times. Might be something I could fix later with sugar.
< 1756003247 618205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although it needs two different list constructors)
< 1756003263 795276 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to specify whether you're creating a spreading list or a single element)
< 1756003297 777740 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1756003299 17291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like having a spread operator as sugar is probably saner than the Perl method of doing things
< 1756003339 270847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in which it's actually part of the language semantics/type system (actually it's more or less the only thing that's type-system-level in Perl…)
< 1756003373 487004 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Under the hood, Zaddy represents strings as atomic packed objects; there's a single reference to a hashmap with all of the stored code points. Lists are represented as if they were structures, but with a hack to allow lists of any length.
< 1756003434 799336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So spreading into a list would be very messy because it would require some sort of nested-structure tree which is specific to lists. All other structures are torn apart into pieces, with each branch getting its own individual structure and storage.
< 1756003566 672324 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756003621 720773 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh, sorry. I have a rubber duck on my desk for this sort of thing.
< 1756003735 500301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, the way Rust does this is quite neat: _ represents any single element, .. represents 0 or more elements, and it also has an operator for naming part of a match
< 1756003748 238818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you want to match a substring, you just write .. and name it
< 1756003766 345073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure that would really help in your situation
> 1756003938 788871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ABrainloller14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163751 5* 03None1 5* (+2263) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It is [[Brainloller]] but uses only English letters. {|style="text-align:center;" !Color !RGB !Function !ABrainloller |- |style="background:#ff0000;"|red |(255,0,0) |> |A |- |style="background:#800000;"|darkred |(128,0,0) |<<
> 1756003961 244210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ABrainloller14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163752&oldid=163751 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Hello, World */
> 1756004056 553657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163753&oldid=163748 5* 03None1 5* (+19) 10/* A */
> 1756004104 386393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163754&oldid=163432 5* 03None1 5* (+69) 10
< 1756004351 123800 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: My current thought is that "unrestricted Zaddy", a not-yet-implemented variant, should be TC on the rules alone. So what do I actually need to use the rules for parsing, so that I don't need to carry a parsing formalism too? I worked out that doing CYK in Zaddy is feasible, given that I have some way to crack into the initial input string.
> 1756004352 466378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ABrainloller14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163755&oldid=163752 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10
< 1756009112 235552 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1756009755 755686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1756011487 474943 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756018737 533167 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756020175 146017 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756020647 709224 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1756021315 243805 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com QUIT :Server closed connection
> 1756021623 404469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163756&oldid=154728 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+7) 10/* Implementation */
< 1756021623 581869 :Taneb!~Taneb@ip87-106-35-210.pbiaas.com JOIN #esolangs Taneb :Nathan van Doorn
< 1756022527 120328 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756022908 715790 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-133-18.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1756023475 48613 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal JOIN #esolangs Vorpal :Vorpal
> 1756023699 582720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric08/Interpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163757&oldid=163699 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+344) 10Added Echo Tag in CDILOI
< 1756023979 165744 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756024306 944773 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756024333 541917 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal JOIN #esolangs Vorpal :Vorpal
< 1756024444 471374 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1756024502 348631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mayx 5* 10New user account
> 1756024772 445776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163758&oldid=163745 5* 03Mayx 5* (+91) 10
> 1756024826 934149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mayx14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163759 5* 03Mayx 5* (+16) 10Created page with "Hello, I am Mayx"
> 1756025242 808871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163760&oldid=152063 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+2735) 10Added Echo Tag in CDILOI
< 1756025276 420592 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756025769 880155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mayx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163761&oldid=163759 5* 03Mayx 5* (+28) 10
> 1756026227 325144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Capuirequiem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163762&oldid=83337 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+61) 10
> 1756026244 524858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Capuirequiem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163763&oldid=163762 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10
> 1756026344 110950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VERPNL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163764&oldid=163527 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+18) 10
> 1756026447 934609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163765&oldid=163760 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-28) 10New link for brainfuck in Capuirequiem
< 1756028955 675925 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1756028973 100742 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756029278 277051 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-133-18.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1756030115 758130 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756030136 249536 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756030357 194219 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756030902 312120 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
< 1756031417 693710 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756031425 349997 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1756031769 448628 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1756032572 986638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Mayx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163766&oldid=163761 5* 03Mayx 5* (+89) 10
< 1756034688 231232 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756034692 466292 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756034778 712138 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1756034986 981895 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756035702 878144 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756040507 465947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PAC-PI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163767&oldid=157280 5* 03LillyHStClaire 5* (+12) 10fix clipping of text
< 1756040978 456959 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756044225 495520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Soallang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163768&oldid=144487 5* 03HungKhanh0106 5* (-67) 10
< 1756044472 246109 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756044485 954692 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1756046229 624327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163769&oldid=163424 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+381) 10
> 1756047066 729708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163770&oldid=163769 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+15) 10
< 1756047330 964323 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756049321 507034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163771 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+963) 10Created page with "Esochain is a wiki game where you list esolangs with the same first letter as the last letter of the one before it. You cannot use the same language twice on the same server. A server "dies" once there are no esolangs left starting with that letter. It can be
> 1756049332 592922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163772&oldid=163771 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+2) 10/* Example */
> 1756054464 787576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163773&oldid=163772 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+10) 10/* Server 1 */ self promo moment
< 1756054560 276308 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-133-18.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1756054587 520052 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1756055058 391555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Analog wizard 5* 10New user account
< 1756056663 534519 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1756056851 764320 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756057016 306327 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756057030 505457 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1756057066 502080 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
< 1756061505 920556 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1756061526 631288 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1756062068 723755 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1756062154 29117 :lynndotpy6!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1756063098 992038 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo
< 1756063346 680811 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Verily, yo.
< 1756063525 741327 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I was happy to see that one of yesterday's users actually created a page on the wiki so they were probably just venting their genuine frustration about the extra hoop to jump through. ( https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Iamnotanuser )
< 1756063566 22630 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That's great news.
< 1756063589 243268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Just another Brainfuck derivative... but meh, that's still the norm for a first esolang.)
< 1756063618 461901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Ook! )
< 1756064113 6473 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-133-18.mobile.vf-ua.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1756064650 310337 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1756067488 34180 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756067589 604561 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1756069849 351507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163774&oldid=163720 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+5) 10
< 1756070901 751672 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756071215 153911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163775&oldid=163774 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+428) 10Added truth machine
> 1756071253 294959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TOPLWARLNTMIHTACAFFTPLAIHTASTNBIHTMAIAIU14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163776&oldid=163775 5* 03TeraByte 5* (+13) 10Added missing pre tag
< 1756071676 534697 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756071715 325010 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs fizzie :Heikki Kallasjoki
> 1756073510 329044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stitchii14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163777 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+3678) 10Created page with "Stitchii is a language by [[user:GluonVelvet]] whose design principle is to be made out of as many different parts as possible. Make every language component in different languages and combine them together to make a language that either disregards or takes advanta
> 1756073564 291331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stitchii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163778&oldid=163777 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+51) 10
> 1756077229 21592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codossa14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163779 5* 03LEOMOK 5* (+1803) 10Created page with "'''Codossa''' is an esoteric programming language inspired by the linguistic experiment [http://wikipedia:Viossa Viossa]. It is an experiment for us to try to teach a programming language by writing programs with their expected inputs and outputs, without relying on natu
< 1756079553 34321 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1756083819 456878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codossa14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163780&oldid=163779 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+1) 10/* ^, v */
> 1756083906 487586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codossa14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163781&oldid=163780 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-1) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/163780|163780]] by [[Special:Contributions/PkmnQ|PkmnQ]] ([[User talk:PkmnQ|talk]])
< 1756085343 591854 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1756086442 753260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codossa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163782&oldid=163781 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+14) 10fix link
< 1756087027 33879 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1756087429 412376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stitchii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163783&oldid=163778 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (-2) 10
> 1756088537 499850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* 10New user account
> 1756088665 182423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163784&oldid=163758 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+257) 10/* Introductions */
< 1756089857 856735 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756089868 158610 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling JOIN #esolangs laerling :lærling
> 1756089926 463264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163785 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+4809) 10Create page
> 1756090045 573744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163786&oldid=163753 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+16) 10Add Merriment
> 1756090371 849949 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163787&oldid=163785 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+17) 10Fix pipe character
> 1756094380 261595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Codossa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163788&oldid=163782 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+326) 10/* Commands */ hopefully these are clear enough
> 1756094934 625688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163789&oldid=163773 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+53) 10I'm guessing you can add multiple esolangs as long as they are on different servers
< 1756096739 118505 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1756096743 967272 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756096767 288691 :Bowserinator_!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756096856 948642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1756097538 533143 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756097546 552305 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf JOIN #esolangs shachaf :Shachaf Ben-Kiki
> 1756102082 546007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hashibami14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163790&oldid=161761 5* 03Hashibami 5* (+28) 10
< 1756102383 534115 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1756104585 555593 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756104690 72892 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756105086 439190 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1756105154 905329 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756105743 100462 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1756105815 753352 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756106093 876252 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1756108021 362550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163791&oldid=163604 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+27) 10/* S */
< 1756108364 974111 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756109431 681088 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756110577 395783 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756112265 305682 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1756118935 518839 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs ski :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1756120801 901628 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4458:cfb4:81c6:41e5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756120830 418933 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cce0:195f:dbe7:46a7 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756121139 748267 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756121146 992134 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756121305 403787 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1756121509 855576 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756121526 957805 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1756121581 254405 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cce0:195f:dbe7:46a7 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756122343 943333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163792&oldid=163789 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+21) 10
> 1756122830 105386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:.png10]]": Huh
< 1756127799 422854 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756127810 314195 :mich181189!sid268336@londonhackspace/mich181189 JOIN #esolangs mich181189 :Michael
> 1756131396 447851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163794&oldid=163792 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+7) 10/* Server 5 */ lmao
> 1756131586 50941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AlephSquirrel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163795 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+248) 10Created page with "Creator of: * [[Merriment]], an extensible [[fungeoid]]. * SqueezeL, a [[Lisp]]-like golfing language. (abandoned, and doesn't have a page on the wiki currently) My old account is [[User:Caenbe]]. Go there if you want to see my older (worse) stuff."
> 1756131690 475359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AlephSquirrel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163796&oldid=163795 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+59) 10
> 1756134959 264874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163797&oldid=163756 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+25) 10/* Syntax */
< 1756134968 350435 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1756135133 462835 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756135153 780209 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy JOIN #esolangs mcfrdy :mcfrdy
> 1756135212 811773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163798&oldid=163797 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-18) 10/* Syntax */
> 1756135696 888577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163799&oldid=163798 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1756136785 706868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163800 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+2340) 10something
> 1756137986 480959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07@!+-()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163801&oldid=139713 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1) 10/* See also */
> 1756139596 117886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07@!+-()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163802&oldid=163801 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10
> 1756139762 180290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Right14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163803&oldid=119692 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+4) 10/* Execution */
> 1756139777 860012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Right14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163804&oldid=163803 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+4) 10/* Turn right */
< 1756143934 242400 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1756145220 479479 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 JOIN #esolangs user3456 :user3456
< 1756145246 725295 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1756145458 377147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Total Vacuum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163805&oldid=74706 5* 03Total Vacuum 5* (-31) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/74706|74706]] by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
> 1756147113 57924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Olus200014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163806&oldid=115608 5* 03Olus2000 5* (+86) 10Several years passed, I'm a new person now.
> 1756147336 65176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163807&oldid=163799 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* Truth-machine */
< 1756150344 579912 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cce0:195f:dbe7:46a7 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756155296 100531 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1756156982 524343 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756156993 663107 :wryl!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl JOIN #esolangs Wryl :Wryl
> 1756157151 132237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bobble14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163808&oldid=157349 5* 03H33T33 5* (-36) 10
> 1756157392 33668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code/Topple 1.014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163809 5* 03H33T33 5* (+8498) 10Created page with "[[Topple/Source_Code|Back]] ''Some organization may be made in the near future, but it will not change how the current source code is intended to function. Other than that, this is a finished version.'' ''Disclaimer(s): The source code will pull t
> 1756157397 319993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163810&oldid=163517 5* 03H33T33 5* (-8422) 10Replaced content with "[[Topple| Back to Topple]] [[Topple/Source_Code/Topple_1.0|Topple 1.0]]"
> 1756158215 648092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oops i shared an infohazard.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163811 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+2485) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{wrongtitle|title=oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. oops i shared an infohazard. (continues on forever)}} oops i shared an infohazard. is an esolang made where every program is
< 1756158448 182598 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cce0:195f:dbe7:46a7 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756158942 466668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163812&oldid=163810 5* 03H33T33 5* (+587) 10
> 1756159332 903731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163813&oldid=163812 5* 03H33T33 5* (-46) 10
< 1756160804 946869 :GregorR2!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
< 1756160891 488548 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756160891 643682 :GregorR2!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 NICK :GregorR
< 1756161083 672493 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1756161174 589000 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756163053 753173 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1756163675 567030 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756167584 365912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163814&oldid=163794 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+12) 10added to server 2
> 1756168127 991553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163815&oldid=163337 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-337) 10
> 1756168428 523557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163816&oldid=163815 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+156) 10
> 1756168695 529063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oops i shared an infohazard.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163817&oldid=163811 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+52) 10Categories
> 1756169223 314289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163818&oldid=163816 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+372) 10
> 1756171810 874792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163819&oldid=163687 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+18) 10
< 1756172075 852513 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756172086 791539 :voxpelli!sid31634@id-31634.tinside.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs voxpelli :Pelle Wessman
> 1756172168 122975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163820&oldid=163814 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+157) 10
> 1756172608 793241 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163821&oldid=163820 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-157) 10already implied? also those aren't esolangs
> 1756174189 891112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163822&oldid=163821 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+13) 10Add to server 3
> 1756175012 650754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163823&oldid=163822 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+46) 10add to servers 14
> 1756176010 694823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163824&oldid=163823 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+73) 10
> 1756176103 729251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163825&oldid=163824 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+46) 10Add a new server.
> 1756176354 138436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163826&oldid=163825 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+58) 10/* Server 4 */ marking the death of this server
> 1756177242 264704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163827&oldid=163826 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+47) 10Add to servers 5 and 6
> 1756177697 627057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163828&oldid=163827 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+36) 10adding to server 5 (ridiculous)
> 1756178096 913879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Schaftenstein14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163829 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2827) 10Created page with "Schaftenstein is a programming language designed by PSTF. The goal of this language is to be completely OOP and be Turing-complete. = Overview = As the author stated, this language is designed to be quite like Java but different(mix with Python). = Basic S
> 1756178391 114711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163830&oldid=163786 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+20) 10
> 1756180302 842726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163831&oldid=163828 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+190) 10
> 1756183851 266691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Oops i shared an infohazard.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163832 5* 03Corbin 5* (+176) 10Share a gentle fun memetic infohazard.
< 1756189985 380458 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756190183 947033 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756193422 948720 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756194601 285370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163833&oldid=163831 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-521) 10bro
> 1756194629 896270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163834&oldid=163833 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+521) 10nvm
> 1756194700 272353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163835&oldid=163834 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10) 10/* Server 2 */
< 1756195613 863135 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1756198458 924454 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1756198544 704647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163836&oldid=163800 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+604) 10
< 1756199029 100777 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1756199682 855851 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1756199697 731918 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1756200180 731777 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1756200248 884421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163837&oldid=163289 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+552) 10
> 1756200316 822012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163838&oldid=163837 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
> 1756200788 360874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163839&oldid=163838 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+143) 10
< 1756201921 797541 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1756204586 914730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163840&oldid=163835 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+12) 10/* Server 2 */
< 1756207458 994565 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1756207491 93659 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1756207544 592824 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1756207641 897065 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756207660 255525 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1756207793 6902 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756207813 125048 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1756208775 975528 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756209027 750965 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756209092 903990 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1756210275 607933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tercet14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163841&oldid=163356 5* 03Insulation 5* (+18) 10
> 1756210599 324427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163842&oldid=163840 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+52) 10
> 1756212063 655804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163843&oldid=163842 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+9) 10/* Server 2 */
> 1756212290 202763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163844&oldid=163843 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+10) 10/* Server 5 */
> 1756212599 996709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stop writing your code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163845 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+751) 10Created page with "[[stop writing your code]] an esolang developed by [[User:I don't like programming]] where every character prints random string from [" Stop writing your code!", "Stop write code!", " Stop writing your fucking code"]. The idea behind the
> 1756212721 888552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stop writing your code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163846&oldid=163845 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+92) 10
> 1756212748 262859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stop writing your code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163847&oldid=163846 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+0) 10Categories
< 1756212759 544918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756212768 926974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1756213095 724741 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1756213146 404259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I don't like programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163848&oldid=163746 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+183) 10
< 1756213541 986963 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1756213593 554499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I don't like programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163849&oldid=163848 5* 03I don't like programming 5* (+0) 10
< 1756213645 755385 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756213902 554453 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1756215183 588816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163850&oldid=163844 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+37) 10Add to servers 2 and 6
< 1756215186 422571 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
> 1756215280 755603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163851&oldid=163850 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+38) 10
> 1756215741 337650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163852&oldid=163851 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+60) 10Adding to server 5 and adding a new thread.
< 1756215807 455500 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756215826 489727 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
> 1756215947 907614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163853&oldid=163839 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
> 1756215983 413205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163854&oldid=163852 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+88) 10change underscores to arrows for readability + add to server 7
> 1756217060 638543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163855&oldid=163853 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+507) 10
< 1756217112 536745 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1756217940 247068 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1756219124 23557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163856&oldid=163854 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10) 10
> 1756219301 889359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163857&oldid=163856 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+12) 10/* Server 7 */
> 1756221874 26837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163858&oldid=163857 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+27) 10
> 1756222137 913785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163859&oldid=163858 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+4) 10/* Server 5 */
> 1756222320 932530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163860&oldid=163859 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+6) 10/* Server 5 */
> 1756223820 86109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:X-54014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163861 5* 03X-540 5* (+601) 10Created page with "Hi, I'm X/O, also known as x_540 (or x-540 if I can't use an _), as you might have guessed based on the fact that this page exists, I like esolangs. I'm also lazy so yoy can expect me to take months or even years to add my esolangs to this wiki... I currently have two
< 1756224682 102128 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. I should reword the bullshit I put at the top of [[Category:Output only]]. Deadfish isn't the worst example, but it's a little misleading; when considered as a free monoid, the "output" of a Deadfish program includes a ghost output which stores the current register. This means that it should really be [0-255]+, but also it's actually generated by postcomposition with the inclusion [0-255]* -> [0-255]+.
< 1756224770 544889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Nope, got the arrow backwards. It's postcomposition with a truncation [0-255]+ → [0-255]* which removes the final element of each sequence. Gotta drop the ghost element.
< 1756225635 561797 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Deadfish isn't coherently defined? Well, that makes it a very bad example indeed! Is there a better output-only language to illustrate the point, or should I remove that section entirely?
< 1756225676 98523 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756226600 908524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07e14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163862 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+254) 10Created page with "e is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] which is named after its 3 flags: {{cd|}}, {{cd|e}}, and {{cd|}}. Here is a Hello World example in it: eee eeee ee ee"
> 1756226670 386996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163863&oldid=163633 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+16) 10
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> 1756227096 102567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163864&oldid=163860 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+19) 10/* Server 5 */
< 1756227329 84930 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756227505 341386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163865&oldid=162899 5* 03Corbin 5* (+719) 10Basic complexity analysis.
> 1756227655 947155 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Output only14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163866&oldid=163595 5* 03Corbin 5* (-838) 10Remove (my) overly-simplistic attempt at attaching monoids to output-only languages.
> 1756228219 324729 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163867&oldid=163864 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-41) 10/* Server 4 */ not anymore
> 1756229131 750501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BoundedBeans/Weird Befunge Conditionals14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163868&oldid=111764 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+0) 10Corrected "Rhree" to "Three"
< 1756229476 159552 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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< 1756230346 935230 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1756231299 447087 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756231757 247204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PDAsephtwo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163869&oldid=150121 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+321) 10Clarified w and V commands
< 1756231953 959495 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1756232160 9272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lete14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163870&oldid=129359 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+41) 10Converted command list to table and removed _ command
> 1756232412 5694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163871 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+334) 10Created page with "== Server 4 == was [[e]] created for this? ~~~~"
> 1756232603 799396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sugueziume14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163872&oldid=129928 5* 03BoundedBeans 5* (+139) 10Convert original commands to wikitable
> 1756232803 524721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163873&oldid=163871 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+174) 10/* Server 4 */
< 1756233853 759536 :Everything!~Everythin@178-133-32-20.mobile.vf-ua.net JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1756235035 545341 :Everythi1g!~Everythin@94.153.24.225 JOIN #esolangs * :Everything
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> 1756238373 36635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163874&oldid=163867 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10/* Server 2 */
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> 1756241089 910609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163877&oldid=163265 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-8) 10/* Implementations */ mini
> 1756241189 20674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163878&oldid=163877 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10Rhor66r96t8r8r9otft
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> 1756245447 718893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163879&oldid=148982 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+34) 10
> 1756245703 75173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163880&oldid=163875 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+37) 10add to servers 2 (self-promo) and 7
< 1756245721 484873 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :222cu
< 1756245725 886442 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :-222
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< 1756246324 946057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756246344 371725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think you may misunderstand Deadfish – the range of the register isn't 0-255, it is the set of nonnegative integers that are not 256
< 1756246364 83032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 to 255 inclusive are OK, so is 257 and upwards
< 1756246420 889155 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes. As such, I've edited [[Category:output only]] to entirely omit my aside on monoids. If there is a better language that serves as an example, I'd be happy to write that up.
< 1756246457 286382 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, please LMK if my recent edit to [[deadfish]] was wrong. I started from the assumption that the program which squares 17, listed in the prior section, was valid and that there wasn't a further ceiling or wraparound.
< 1756246468 698213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on a separate topic: I have been wondering about whether you can mremap the stack on Linux (to a different address) while the stack is in use, as long as you change the stack pointer to match afterwards
< 1756246478 418171 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some implementations have other limits than that, such as 16-bits or 32-bits
< 1756246495 970105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously you can't do this through any sort of library wrapper, as a library function wouldn't be able to return if you moved the stack out from underneath it
< 1756246515 380885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, maybe doing the system call directly with inline asm works?
< 1756246547 55658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you would need to make sure there were no pointers to the stack at the time, which probably means implementing your whole program in asm as compilers don't try to avoid doing that)
< 1756246594 384147 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "theoretical standard for Deadfish" is normally considered to have no maximum limit on the integer
< 1756246601 512858 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some compilation schemes basically don't use the stack pointer, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some stack usage from e.g. the C runtime, either.
< 1756246611 849811 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but as zzo38 says, individual implementations often just use native integer types rather than bignums
< 1756246629 690674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right
< 1756246659 31292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the context is that I have been considering writing my own ABI, one of the rules (that was created for an entirely different reason) was that there could be no pointers to the %sp stack (there is a second stack you can have pointers to)
< 1756246685 529660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then I realised it would be possible to realloc the stack larger while the program was running, which would make a number of threading-related issues much easier
< 1756246702 489984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I wasn't sure if a system call would even be able to return if the stack had moved while it was running
< 1756246718 89744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it probably would be? the syscall instruction doesn't use the stack
< 1756246736 930190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but some system calls do, like vDSO system calls, so this may be a case in which the kernel is underspecified
< 1756246799 78404 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you intend to work with multiple instruction sets? Some might not support that.
< 1756246817 850951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general, Linux not having a specification is annoying, e.g. several people noticed during the high performance FizzBuzz thing that the documentation of vmsplice(2) doesn't match its actual behaviour, but we have no way to tell which is wrong or whether that's even a meaningful thing to say
< 1756246846 517622 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing I was thinking of before is if it can be made to support saving the state of the program and then to restore it later from disk (but excluding I/O).
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< 1756246860 681860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: well an ABI is somewhat processor-specific – I want the general ABI design techniques to potentially generalise to other processors, but it's OK if not all of them can handle it, and the ABI itself of course wouldn't
< 1756246895 601203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. I was also planning to take advantage of having a large virtual address space, which you can't do on 32-bit processors or processors without MMUs
< 1756246927 517391 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: if you mean mremap to replace the stack contents to a different accessible page then I don't see why you couldn't do it even without special precautions. if you call the mremap system call directly it shouldn't use your stack. if instead you want to replace the stack with a page that isn't accessible then you have to make sure the kernel doesn't try to invoke signal handlers on that stack while
< 1756246933 522786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's inaccessible: either sigaltstack, or block every signal that would invoke a handler
< 1756246946 733490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, this definitely needs sigaltstack
< 1756246948 233872 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on x86_64 at least; other architectures could differ
< 1756247146 184968 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: try to look in programs like DOSEMU or Wine that set up for running 16-bit protected mode programs (typically Win16) natively in an x86_32 linux host executable, maybe they have to do similar crazy magic
< 1756247163 690177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought this ABI would need sigaltstack just generally, but thinking about it, it actually doesn't – receiving a signal doesn't create new pointers to the stack
< 1756247193 870562 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Glulx has the stack in a separate address space (which is not fully accessible), but there has been a C compiler written to target it. (I think it is not only Glulx that does this, though)
< 1756247206 262579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think they normally just map the bottom of virtual memory to simulate real mode
< 1756247217 610746 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Glulx does not have signals though)
< 1756247221 529740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the reason why the kernel lets you configure the setting that disables mapping over NULL
< 1756247244 803554 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, hmm, protected mode
< 1756247253 181745 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the issue there would be segment registers
< 1756247302 380455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I think "stack in a separate address space" is correct, but x86-64 doesn't support it, so the best I can do is put it somewhere random and prevent any pointers ever being taken to it
< 1756247302 941505 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's for real mode, sure, but can't some of them run Win16 programs in protected mode with the code segment set to 16-bit too like windows 3.11 in 386 enchanced mode does? surely at least some later Win16 programs depend on that, don't they?
> 1756247311 746113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163881&oldid=163873 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+351) 10
< 1756247335 260659 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: this is specifically for an x86_32 host, rare these days but the source code supporting it should still exist
< 1756247359 100369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC on x86_32, you need the kernel's help to set legal values for segment registers
< 1756247366 114613 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least the linux program that invokes it is x86_32, not necessarily the kernel
< 1756247374 615164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the kernel creates an array of possible legal segments, and you put one of those into the segment register in userspace
< 1756247435 334215 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, I never tried this kind of magic. The most I did was to map a new writable and executable segment, write a function into it, then call it.
< 1756247437 33028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, found it: modify_ldt(2)
< 1756247514 440377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it used to be used for thread-local storage, but Linux added a special case for that after a while
< 1756247552 22735 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: good, so somebody probably uses that system call, and you can probably find such code
< 1756247559 640593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(on x86, TLS is normally done via %gs; on x86_64, it's done via %fs, using WRFSBASE if the processor has it or help from the kernel on old x86_64 processors)
< 1756247646 870749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the reason they changed from %gs to %fs is that there's a SWAPGS instruction but not a SWAPFS instruction, which as far as I can tell doesn't actually matter semantically, but perhaps there's a performance difference as a consequence
< 1756247724 292469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't it because the x86_64 cpu only allows FS to point to a nonzero address in true 64-bit mode, so they had to use FS, whereas the x86_32 convention existed before x86_64 was invented?
< 1756247765 173788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: FS and GS are both allowed to have a nonzero base
< 1756247778 504185 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, it's not that then
< 1756247793 490498 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only segmentation details you can change on x86-64 are base of FS and GS, and bitness of CS
< 1756247925 177434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did have an interesting idea for an x86-series processor feature recently: the ability to link specific memory map entries to segment registers, so that they could only be accessed by instructions prefixed (explicitly or implicitly) with that prefix
< 1756247966 473918 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, I don't think it will help you with such deep magic, but http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libcoro.html has like five different implementation on how to set up new stacks and switch between stacks on linux-like systems (including possibly other unixes)
< 1756248034 620348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would let you simulate the segment-limit feature of 32-bit x86, which I think is helpful as an assertion (security / catching accidental out-of-bounds accesses)
< 1756248190 711158 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry? how would you simulate the segment limit?
> 1756248297 891163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163882&oldid=163880 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+68) 10cutting a loophole and reglueing the rules back together
< 1756248463 630474 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the x86_64 instruction WRPKRU and its linux interface pkeys(7) might be able to do something like that, but the code would be less dense than just segment prefixes
> 1756248487 819038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163883&oldid=163882 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+162) 10
> 1756248601 911606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163884&oldid=163881 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+123) 10
< 1756248678 556971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: by tagging memory outside of the segment limit so that it couldn't be accessed by the segment's prefix
< 1756248706 239863 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this was inspired by pkeys, but I think it's an improvemet
< 1756248754 849959 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sudden realisation: people use the xor operator in things like W^X and "shared xor mutable", but it is the wrong operator: this isn't an xor but a nand, because it is OK to have things that are neither writable nor executable
< 1756248770 258104 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I noticed that too
> 1756248809 693950 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163885&oldid=163883 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+167) 10
< 1756249000 946838 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
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> 1756250146 989464 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163886&oldid=163885 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+16) 10add to revres 2 (self-promo)
> 1756250537 865231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163887&oldid=163886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+21) 10
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> 1756253198 968219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163889&oldid=163888 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1019) 10
< 1756254110 786943 :purism!~purism@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 JOIN #esolangs * :based
> 1756254454 596468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163890&oldid=163787 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+413) 10Add v0.2 stuff
< 1756254517 179979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : The result of pow(−2, ∞) is +∞, because all large positive floating-point values are even integers.
< 1756254519 988968 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is amazing
< 1756254988 458863 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Deeply inspirational. I feel much better about my own crimes against IEEE 754 now.
< 1756255015 148836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like the programming community still hasn't decided on what floats actually are – are they approximations of real numbers, or are they a number system that is only able to represent a finite set of numbers that is denser near the origin?
< 1756255071 973825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or are they one used to represent the other?
< 1756255103 399031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or are they a data structure best understood as a disjoint union of rows of bits? Is the true nature of floats NaN smuggling, fast inverse sqrt and fast log2, mantissa twiddling, etc?
< 1756255107 680972 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most operations on floats individually make sense in at least one of the three views, but the ways in which they're typically combined don't really, and the distinction isn't normally clarified well
< 1756255137 200056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, the integer/float reinterpret thing is also relevant sometimes
< 1756255176 861477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although less so than it used to be, e.g. fast inverse sqrt and integer log2 are both processor builtins on recent x86-64 and probably also on its competitors
< 1756255273 725578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, this conversation reminds me of an idea I had recently – when reference counting, you want to avoid reference count overflows as that can lead to memory unsoundness, which is normally implemented by saturating the reference count, but saturating integer arithmetic is a bit more verbose in asm than I'd like it to be
< 1756255290 314363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially as the operation you want here is "when trying to increment or decrement INT_MAX, it stays as INT_MAX"
< 1756255316 41295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but! there is an operation that does automatically saturate in exactly that way: doubling and halving floats, which saturates at infinity
< 1756255341 82652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it has made me wonder whether storing reference counts as floats might actually make sense
< 1756255371 802793 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! There *are* other data structures with this property, particularly Gosper-style continued logarithms, but they're pretty rare.
< 1756255400 320350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unfortunately, unless you're using a DAZ+FTZ FPU configuration, which would be nonstandard and break the semantics of many programs, you wouldn't be able to make use of the underflow-to-zero behaviour without a huge performance penalty)
< 1756255410 384656 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And we could argue that a continued logarithm is just a really bad way of writing a float which is mostly exponent and has maybe one bit of mantissa.
< 1756255752 165234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main reason I don't want to write my reference counting in terms of floats is that all the mantissa bits would be wasted, unless I can figure out something to store in them that's OK to lose when the reference count saturates
< 1756255822 641326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess converting an 8-bit reference count to a float mantissa, doubling it, and converting back might still be faster than the branchy implementation of saturating arithmetic, but it probably isn't
< 1756255844 48759 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The mantissa *is* a fairly nice binary fraction in [0, 1]. But yeah, it's kind of delicate.
< 1756255902 720668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, you can store a pointer there – sort-of like NaN-boxing but with a valid exponent
< 1756255913 274001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the pointer would disappear when the refcount saturated
< 1756255930 955662 :purism!~purism@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 QUIT :Quit: purism
< 1756255943 623949 :purism!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 JOIN #esolangs * :based
< 1756256036 269602 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh – I just realised that reference count saturation is the way you implement it in kernels and similar high-availability software that can't fail-fast
< 1756256041 168270 :purism!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756256068 500776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but for regular usermode software, you normally want reference count saturation to give you a crash instead; I just thought that that would be slower because you would have to test for the saturation case
< 1756256073 469851 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 JOIN #esolangs * :based
< 1756256159 440818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however: if you are reference-counting a pointer (which admittedly isn't the common case because normally the reference count is pointed to, not on the pointer), a reference overflow would set the float to infinity, which has a zero mantissa, so it would null out the pointer
< 1756256184 237129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, that's fun. The unified theory of GC says that there should be a mirrored concept, and I think it's the phenomenon of an object which lives forever because it's been accidentally promoted to eden/paradise (in a generational setup) or that just got leaked.
< 1756256230 718498 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Clever. Maybe too clever?
< 1756256246 281036 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so now I'm trying to figure out a way to get that null dereference to give you the fail-fast behaviour on reference count overflow
< 1756256251 744583 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sounds portable to IEEE 754, though.
< 1756256255 460142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the obvious thing to put there would be a vtable
< 1756256297 843946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this is something that 99% of programmers would consider too clever, but from my point of view, as long as it's sound and you can prove it works, and it's more efficient, why not use it?
< 1756256305 11014 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Store the destruction function in the fraction bits if it bits, but I do not expect it to fit.
< 1756256347 810418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the code address of it would fit, at least if using double-precision floats
< 1756256376 381443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have 53 bits, most processors don't have a virtual address space that big, even on processors that do you could just ensure you loaded the program at a low enough address
< 1756256381 134428 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 CHGHOST ~based2997 :user/based299792458
< 1756256435 935673 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you are programming it in a way that can guarantee that it is working like that, then yes, but if you are trying to write a portable program in C then it will not work, unless it points to VM code or something like that instead, in which case maybe it will work.
< 1756256484 208658 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you guys ever worked with sea of nodes ir
< 1756256502 642367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – although this is an interesting portability problem because processors that were even physically capable of loading code at addresses that high only started to be produced in the last few of years
< 1756256506 420009 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* last few years
< 1756256516 260154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even the ones that are have no reason to do so
< 1756256552 344583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, the C standards maintainers would obviously be reluctant to say "code and static data is never loaded at an address that doesn't fit within the range of a 52-bit signed integer" :-D
> 1756256552 437280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163891&oldid=163876 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+11) 10
< 1756256615 341297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it'd break on platforms like CHERI where pointers are authenticated and 128 bits wide
< 1756256754 696437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it almost works even on CHERI by treating the data half of the pointer as a float and the auth data as an integer, but CHERI doesn't support the operation of "offset a pointer a very long distance out of bounds and then back to its original location" which is what the float-boxing would effectively do to it)
< 1756256992 887843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh! I figured out how to store a pointer in the mantissa, even on saturation – you just arrange things so that the pointer is accessed after the reference count update, while the old value is still in a register, and handle the segfault!
< 1756257040 814591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reference count saturation should be a very rare event, after all
< 1756257099 181024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hate so much that our current programming abstractions are bad at implementing this sort of thing – the problem is that this requires a change at the lower levels of abstraction, but it's still nicely contained because the higher levels don't break, so you can reason about it in isolation
< 1756257124 420578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in our current models, the higher levels of abstraction generally all regard the lower levels as either fixed, or entirely controlled by higher levels
< 1756257165 741189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is why I care about creating my own ABI, it lets me control the low-level details in a way that doesn't break existing higher-level programs (which are generally designed to be portable to multiple ABIs)
< 1756257205 223144 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are other things I had wanted to do that the levels of abstraction in C (and in LLVM, and possibly also the .o file format) make it difficult to do in a reasonably portable way, since otherwise you would have to write a non-portable code
< 1756257221 405006 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, maybe it will help? I don't know.
< 1756257233 440749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think C's notion of non-portable code is the wrong one
< 1756257252 100357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I want to write something non-portable I want to do it at the lower levels of abstraction without breaking the higher levels, and C has that backwards
< 1756257366 142033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, instead of writing C code that sees through the abstraction, I would want instead to write low-level code in a lower-level language like asm, that provides an extra feature to the higher-level language that it can then make use of
< 1756257391 260515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and those features often appear in the form of guarantees rather than the form of functions
< 1756257417 761270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. rules on what pointers look like when converted to integers
< 1756257459 102725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a C implementation can add such rules without breaking the standard – and I think a C implementation would be more useful if it let you customize that sort of thing
< 1756257555 981196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing about this sort of guarantee is that it's really easy to break by accident, e.g. Rust has functions like f32::from_bits and f64::from_bits and they are the only thing preventing you adding a low-level guarantee like "all NaNs are quiet"
< 1756257572 447129 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756257697 305405 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Drat, I walked away. Sorry, based; I *have* worked with Sea of Nodes and have opinions.
< 1756257766 924681 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION suddenly starts wondering why code/function pointers are 64 bits wide – is it just to give more space for ASLR?
< 1756257779 59177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, using more than 4GiB of data, I get it, sometimes that's useful
< 1756257784 839395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but using more than 4GiB of code ?
> 1756257842 22286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BCSD14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163892 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1075) 10Created page with "BCSD, or Bit Counts Spiraling Down, is an [[esolang]] created by [[User:Tommyaweosme]]. == Commands == 00xx - do nothing 01xx - flip xx and print it 10xx - print xx without flipping 11xxx - print the first xxx bits Every line may show the next evolution; only the
< 1756257891 616812 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I think that could be useful, but I had also wanted to do such things as: making the addresses of a set of global variables defined in one file to overlap with the addresses of a set of global variables defined in a different file, and making a boolean or other value modified only during initialization of the program to affect a condition or something else in another part of the program.
< 1756257966 334770 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, also declaring variables that are not mapped and are allowed to overlap other memory, in case you only care that the addresses are unique (and possibly how much gap after one address before the next one).
< 1756258016 419516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :likewise it is probably OK to force vtables to the low 4GiB – that both saves you 4 bytes on every object that uses one (in some languages, every object), and prevents an attacker tricking the code into interpreting arbitrary attacker-controlled data as vtables unless they can allocate it in the low 4GiB somehow
> 1756258762 567807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07P2WFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163893 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+973) 10Created page with "P2wFuck is a [[PaidFuck]] derivative, which is slightly more serious than [[PaidFuck]] itself. == Commands == Running a specific program for the first time costs $2.99 on top of the command charges, but every subsequent time afterwards, the run fee is $0.49. > $0.0
< 1756259744 865091 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding .byte 67; mov %rcx, (%rdx)
< 1756259747 651460 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :43: rex.XB \ 48 89 0a: mov %rcx,(%rdx)
< 1756259763 884337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding .byte 0x67; mov %rcx, (%rdx)
< 1756259765 471525 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :67 48 89 0a: mov %rcx,(%edx)
< 1756259792 966568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aww, for a moment I thought this was gadget-proof, but a gadget could just start reading halfway through the instruction to skip the 0x67 prefix
< 1756259802 484052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, one quarter of a way through
< 1756259852 213364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we could use a dedicated register that only ever stores 32-bit values…
< 1756259880 34416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"asm intended to be safe even in the presence of exploits" is an esolang, and a fairly interesting one at that
< 1756260386 479083 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Then, hopefully it can be written in esolang wiki
> 1756260685 598684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kaascevich 5* 10New user account
< 1756260861 924821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would need to work out what the specification is, which is likely to be pretty difficult
> 1756261046 630639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163894&oldid=163784 5* 03Kaascevich 5* (+149) 10/* Introductions */
< 1756261088 925814 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK
< 1756261128 77549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
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> 1756261395 852793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163895&oldid=161359 5* 03Kaascevich 5* (+188) 10/* Optimizing implementations */
> 1756261476 926368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163896&oldid=163895 5* 03Kaascevich 5* (+219) 10/* Normal implementations */
< 1756261844 216325 :based299792458!~based2997@pool-96-235-20-103.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1756262000 502085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nuwora14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163897 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+2921) 10Created page with "Nuwora is a language made by [[user:GluonVelvet]] to be as difficult as possible to program in. It uses reverse imperative processing to read code. What this means is it reads code from the bottom to the top and reads all lines from finish to start including all the
> 1756262227 670317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nuwora14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163898&oldid=163897 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+2) 10/* Cat Program */
< 1756266894 659680 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix
> 1756267959 967271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163899&oldid=163836 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+2814) 10
< 1756267961 962751 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.125.93 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1756268438 429437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07One Time Cat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163900&oldid=134790 5* 03Mayx 5* (+27) 10add Malbolge
< 1756270584 259126 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: wait, why doubling and halving the floats, instead of adding and subtracting one to a float, so that only the *exponent* bits are wasted rather than the significand bits
< 1756271071 615912 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I don't see why I'd want to use saturating reference counts for anything
< 1756271084 865735 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756271107 940294 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1756271264 498267 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sounded like ais523 was going to put the address in the mantissa bits
< 1756271892 484666 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know if amd64 has a fast way to halve and double floats, though, and using fmul64 for this seems inefficient
< 1756271987 450826 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ARMv8.3+ uses those extra pointer bits for a checksum: https://www.qualcomm.com/content/dam/qcomm-martech/dm-assets/documents/pointer-auth-v7.pdf
< 1756272658 247931 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A program I wrote in MMIX once, used integer arithmetic to make half of a floating point number (which will not work in some circumstances)
< 1756273138 680876 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"saturating integer arithmetic is a bit more verbose in asm than I'd like it to be" => I think this is false on x86_64.
< 1756273403 359494 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :say you store your reference count as an unsigned integer, 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 bits wide at your choice, it's 0 when there's no references and some large constant unsigned integer, call it MAXREFCNT, when there's so many references that you no longer want to increment or decrement the counter. if you have your reference count in a memory byte/word/dword/qword called refcnt addressible directly with an
< 1756273409 371192 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instruction, then it takes two simple integer instructions to do an increment or decrement by one that doesn't change numbers above MAXREFCNT: with intel syntax first `cmp refcnt, MAXREFCNT` so the carry bit is true iff the refcnt is finite, then `adc refcnt, 0` to increment a finite reference count or `sbb refcnt, 0` to decrement a finite refcount, and in the latter case the zero flag indicates if the
< 1756273415 380817 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last reference is freed.
< 1756273451 149872 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think you can hope for anything better than this to increment or decrement with a floating-point value in memory, and with floating-point you'll need extra instructions to figure out when the last reference was decremented off the counter, it won't just appear in a flag for free.
< 1756275533 200253 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1756276984 101480 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1756277735 906208 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1756277780 933690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163901&oldid=163813 5* 03H33T33 5* (+43) 10
> 1756277922 823514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163902&oldid=160791 5* 03H33T33 5* (-114) 10
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< 1756278098 553291 :based299792458!~based2997@pool-96-235-20-103.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1756279652 346736 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think even if you want to store the reference count in just a subfield of a 4 or 8 byte value, it's still unlikely that floating-point ops help. unless of course you're going for pure esotericness points, like sacrificing all performance by setting a floating point underflow handler that's called whenever you decrement the reference count to
< 1756279652 846957 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zero references.
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> 1756280551 276491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cycwin/maIsTc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163903&oldid=160185 5* 03Cycwin 5* (+440) 10
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< 1756280855 462923 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1756281504 724977 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756281757 430002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163904&oldid=163887 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+5) 10
< 1756284896 240931 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1756285023 767047 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :new video by the 8-bit guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Jtv8hvau4 about the TI-99/4a early home microcomputer. starts with the claim "Of all of the computers I’ve covered this machine has to be the most bizarre architecture". do you suppose that will mean any esoteric interest?
> 1756285151 966302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PkmnQ/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163905&oldid=163899 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-5731) 10Replaced content with "Major overhaul in progress."
> 1756287275 33354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163906 5* 03Pro465 5* (+1426) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} {{stub}} Permufuck, an esolang created by [[User:Pro465]] in [[:Category:2025|2025]], is a much harder variant of [[brainfuck]]. Each Permufuck program corresponds noninjectively to a brainfuck program, which is given by a pseudorandom permutation of the Permu
< 1756287668 331346 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756288456 936546 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756289171 228004 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756289845 55152 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756293808 415713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163907&oldid=163904 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+107) 10
> 1756293910 248108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163908&oldid=163907 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+2) 10
> 1756293970 36564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163909&oldid=163908 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+31) 10
< 1756293976 675710 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1756294419 44518 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756294718 564701 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756296041 933803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163910&oldid=163906 5* 03Pro465 5* (+8) 10
< 1756296243 494448 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756296621 714725 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1756296830 736040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163911&oldid=163909 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+26) 10
> 1756296861 808546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163912&oldid=163911 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+2) 10
< 1756296996 981976 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756297169 440923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163913&oldid=163912 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+181) 10
> 1756297251 715420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163914&oldid=163913 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+44) 10
< 1756297998 975878 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1756298729 110943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163915&oldid=163910 5* 03Pro465 5* (+614) 10add python program
> 1756298982 292772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163916&oldid=163915 5* 03Pro465 5* (+150) 10/* Description */ clarify on when the program is considered valid
> 1756299987 103178 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163917&oldid=163916 5* 03Pro465 5* (-13) 10/* Conversion program (Python) */
> 1756300556 877653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163918&oldid=163914 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+54) 10
> 1756303205 249830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unpseudorandom14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163919&oldid=123063 5* 03Krolkrol 5* (-40) 10
> 1756303915 466091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163920&oldid=163918 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+67) 10Add to servers 2 and 5
< 1756303986 874187 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1756304012 619127 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1756304332 444219 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-074-060-031.092.074.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1756305083 363154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163921&oldid=163920 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+52) 10add to server 2
> 1756305175 826112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163922&oldid=163921 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+37) 10/* Server 2 */ fix link and add note
< 1756305315 813181 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :When did Windows's window manager switch away from its traditional behavior that when you switch from a maximized window to another window then the former gets minimized? Was it right away between Win16 and Windows 95, or some time later?
< 1756306285 140857 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1756306408 210012 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-001-015-185.178.001.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1756306428 80001 :chloetax4!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1756306615 967785 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A BASIC variant where the command to delete (program) files from the casette is spelled DELETE rather than KILL? what kind of censorship is this?
< 1756306920 281909 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1756306920 818855 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.125.93 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1756306921 39749 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1756306921 470050 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1756306922 186217 :chloetax4!~chloe@user/chloetax NICK :chloetax
< 1756306977 569057 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756306977 640678 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.125.93 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756306977 640752 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756307373 368194 :Everything!~Everythin@31.144.53.103 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1756307860 604738 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756308871 95417 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1756308941 946091 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.125.93 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1756309838 164314 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756309970 835533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pro46514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163923&oldid=156107 5* 03Pro465 5* (+18) 10/* Esolangs created */ add permufuck
> 1756310112 857726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163924&oldid=163830 5* 03Pro465 5* (+16) 10/* P */ add Permufuck
> 1756310273 604420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163925&oldid=163922 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+9) 10/* revreS 2 */ fix server
> 1756310614 569507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163926&oldid=163917 5* 03Pro465 5* (+151) 10add cat program
< 1756310851 237313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does esolangs have colors mised into the [[Page]] things?
< 1756310862 795417 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I should check logs
< 1756310869 595097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, they're quite colorful.
< 1756310893 837189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that's why that ignore isn't working, meh
< 1756310969 628967 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756310983 996514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The Esochain thing annoys me.)
< 1756311072 222198 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd ask for the power to do something about it, but we all know that I should never be given administrative powers.
< 1756311244 827030 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756311462 480234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756311507 892505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : ais523: wait, why doubling and halving the floats, instead of adding and subtracting one to a float, so that only the *exponent* bits are wasted rather than the significand bits ← because adding 1 to a float repeatedly doesn't overflow to infinity
< 1756311543 992262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could work if you used a round-upwards rounding mode, but setting that is slow on most processors (I think AVX-512 adds instructions to do it efficiently? although I can't remember whether they work on scalars)
< 1756311866 667078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do like your idea of using the carry flag, but I think it might still be verbose than you're expecting because the reference count isn't normally in a register already
< 1756311917 405083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding add $1, %eax
< 1756311922 996579 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :83 c0 01: add $0x1,%eax
< 1756311931 748318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding add $1, 0x4(%eax)
< 1756311933 243604 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :67 83 40 04 01: addl $0x1,0x4(%eax)
> 1756311963 305291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163927&oldid=163926 5* 03Pro465 5* (+9) 10make the text less janky
< 1756311987 639009 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
< 1756311989 78793 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: junk `fffffe' after expression \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
< 1756311995 736226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
< 1756311996 996685 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
< 1756312008 792208 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmpl $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%eax)
< 1756312010 275497 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :67 81 78 04 fe ff ff: cmpl $0x7ffffffe,0x4(%eax) \ 7f
< 1756312035 813157 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmpl $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312037 618841 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :81 78 04 fe ff ff 7f: cmpl $0x7ffffffe,0x4(%rax)
< 1756312038 186279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whoops
< 1756312345 118457 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding adc $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312346 487499 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :83 50 04 00: adcl $0x0,0x4(%rax)
< 1756312368 885225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I wonder why the assembler requires an operand size suffix for cmp but not add
< 1756312421 240736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding adcb $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312422 499747 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :80 50 04 00: adcb $0x0,0x4(%rax)
< 1756312428 496504 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, weird
< 1756312506 837868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $0x00, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312508 352012 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :83 78 04 00: cmpl $0x0,0x4(%rax)
< 1756312530 156402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding adc $0x7ffffffe, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312531 139734 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
< 1756312540 799971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $0x01, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312542 99750 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :83 78 04 01: cmpl $0x1,0x4(%rax)
< 1756312547 101274 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $0x101, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312548 82849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
< 1756312557 76223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmp $0x81, 0x4(%rax)
< 1756312558 83493 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no instruction mnemonic suffix given and no register operands; can't size instruction
< 1756312581 877085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if it fits into a signed byte it doesn't complain, is my gues now...
< 1756312612 117451 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but at least it's consistent between cmp and adc)
< 1756312962 926959 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : (The Esochain thing annoys me.) ← we really need to have a wiki-wide discussion about topicality at some point
< 1756312991 926706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially, the extent to which people should be allowed to use the site like a social network rather than a documentation site
< 1756313021 86227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally don't try to shut this sort of thing down immediately, but maybe I should
< 1756313140 56524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do we have enough hammers to shut it down?
< 1756313164 299327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there are clear, agreed rules I would probably be able to enforce them
< 1756313173 670589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, I don't think this is a proper use for a Wiki. Any Wiki, really.
< 1756313210 226430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I don't moderate things, partly it's due to a lack of time, and partly it's due to a lack of mental capacity to handle the ensuing arguments
< 1756313231 151481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :together with the general Esolang rule of "if in doubt, close the browser"
< 1756313248 180533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it used to be that I just enforced the rules, I didn't make them – but nowadays nobody else is making them, there are other admins but they rarely do anything
< 1756313252 656450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if it's confined to a single pager I can ignore the esolangs messages and be happy enough... I just had trouble getting the pattern right.
< 1756313271 816729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(/ignore is an IRC equivalent to closing the browser)
< 1756313284 716429 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pager -> page
< 1756313296 374076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a similar thing for all of User:A's edits
< 1756313319 876736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Whom you probably remember.)
< 1756313324 82541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be hard not to
< 1756313377 86621 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure how much consensus there is about "should the wiki be usable like a social network?" nor even who I'd get consensus from – I think someone (korvo?) argued in favour of that sort of thing on Wikipedia a while ago
< 1756313450 842321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would personally generally prefer everything on the wiki to be kept esolang-related in the sense of "does this help you develop, program in, document or understand esolangs and esoteric programming?"
< 1756313457 98297 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm in favor of inclusion in the main namespace and also in favor of special-interest groups, wikiprojects, etc. But really what I mean by that is that I left English WP because Esperanza was dissolved and admins kept deleting articles that I had put effort into.
< 1756313457 776203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well there's a whole User: namespace for socializing.
< 1756313475 467732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: oh yes, the esochain thing is in the wrong namespace
< 1756313477 834736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not in favor of ad-hoc namespaces or going against consensus.
< 1756313507 345857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I also think that there's a resonable argument that socializing should be banned everywhere, including the User: namespace
< 1756313550 580451 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been waffling over whether I should signal to PTSF and others that their pastebins and other misuses of user:. Maybe I waffled too long.
< 1756313568 49169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw my current position on the "correct inclusionism/deletionism policy for Wikipedia" is that it should be almost entirely driven by verifiability
< 1756313576 136011 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :My main problem with the Esochain thing is that it feels like it's just a way to generate edits. Which, sitting on this channel translates to spam.
< 1756313579 178518 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, verifiability by secondary sources
< 1756313592 958312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it is, that implies that at least some people care – if it isn't, you can't write an article about it anyway
< 1756313595 136261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it just existed as a mostly static page... I wouldn't even care.
< 1756313628 797396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, my main problem with the Esochain thing is that a game that uses a list of esolang names as input isn't esolang-related enough to be ontopic
< 1756313641 757134 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Though if you asked whether it should exists I probably would still say no, but out of sight, out of mind works well!)
< 1756313653 753938 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even for games that are esolang-related, they should be documented on the wiki, but not played on the wiki
< 1756313674 797213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, BF Joust has its own servers, we don't play it by editing wiki pages, instead we edit the wiki pages to document the game
< 1756313718 284609 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1756313732 236791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll say that having subsections called "server" at least makes it look like a Discord parody, which was good for a singular giggle.
< 1756313769 691464 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like wikiprojects, BTW. Boxes. Knowledge snippets. Generic pages. The wiki is getting to be broad, and it needs better organizational tools to create a more uniform and cohesive presentation of knowledge.
< 1756313793 119559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, for people who do think it shouldn't be there, I encourage you to say so on the talk page, because doing that makes it easier to delete
< 1756313816 845496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: wikiprojects in the sense of content organisation rather than in the sense of "here's a list of people who have committed to working on this"?
< 1756313842 366343 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think we have enough editors – especially enough editors who care about content curation rather than just adding new esolang ideas – to staff a wikiproject
< 1756313977 847411 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll leave a note in a minute. I'd like to point out here that anybody with a database dump can programmatically play the game with (stochastic) perfect play. The goal of such a game, when given to children, is to help them learn to spell and pronounce e.g. animal names; there's no similar need for esoteric language names.
< 1756313984 923194 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I have also been considering deleting the language list and making the "semi-serious language list" (which is a silly name for it) into the new Language List, using Category:Languages to replace the purpose of the old language list
< 1756314024 485461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: fwiw I believe perfect play in that is very difficult because it's a multiplayer game with more than two players, and if that wasn't hard enough, you don't know how many players there are or what the turn order is
< 1756314036 807719 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Or just in the sense of "this article is part of a series on brainfuck", TBH. I'm a brutalist though and I'm not going to insist on a specific presentation without supporting structure, both in the code and in the community.
< 1756314068 573307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh yes, lists and navboxes and series and the like are what I think the best form adding structure to the wiki si
< 1756314070 56722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* is
< 1756314077 196589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs often form related groups
< 1756314106 225857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the ones I remember best is the whole set of nopfunge derivatives
< 1756314141 351662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but esolangs are varied enough that I don't think those should be forced into some overarching structure, I think we should do whatever makes the most sense for the series itself, even if it's incompatible with other series
< 1756314173 127182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION laments how the plural of singular "series" pronounced differently, yet there's no way to distinguish the singular from the plural when writing
< 1756314200 679651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, maybe not?
< 1756314237 626593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the singular was pronounced with a short /i/ near the end and the plural with a long /iː/, but Wiktionary tells me that that's actually a US vs. UK distinction
< 1756314254 807471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are Americans more likely to talk about one series at a time than Brits are, and it lead to me inferring an incorrect rule?
< 1756314300 698073 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I'm a postmodernist, so I look at [[category:concepts]] or [[category:data types and structures]] as already forcing a lot of structure onto the situation, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Can't have tomatoes, peanuts, pumpkins, or even beans without a supporting pole.
< 1756314329 685428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking more that categories are for what consistent overarching structure we have, which there are bits of (like computational class categories)
< 1756314349 14402 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and lists and cross-links are more for things that make sense locally within a group of pages but that we wouldn't want to apply to every page on the wiki
> 1756314373 486078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163928&oldid=163884 5* 03Int-e 5* (+378) 10meh
< 1756314377 786887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when I write an esolang page, I check it against every category on Esolang:Categorisation to see if it fits
< 1756314735 317976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(stepping away from the annoyance, it's kind of interesting that as a spam vehicle, this page has been more successful than that other page that was supposed to be edited one character at a time)
> 1756314889 426116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163929&oldid=163928 5* 03Corbin 5* (+557) 10/* This is a spam machine, please delete */ A game that can be played by a script running on a database dump? And it's not even educational.
< 1756314892 422947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I might have pointed out that that page was impractical for spamming reasons
< 1756315053 806428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe there should also be a rule along the lines of "an esolang must exist independently of the page that describes it" – that doesn't mean that it needs to be documented anywhere else or the like, but it must be a case of "think of the esolang, write a page about it" rather than creating a page first and hoping it turns into an esolang
< 1756315101 103299 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are so many pages which are just "you can edit whatever commands you like onto this page" or the like – that's potentially a way to create an esolang (although it tends to not work in practice) but the esolang doesn't exist until later, so maybe the design process should happen offsite
< 1756315122 618503 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :be careful not to outlaw https://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
< 1756315125 620740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :;)
< 1756315204 959289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't think that breaks the rules – naming an esolang after a spam page is allowed because the esolang existed before the page about it did
< 1756315223 385572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the original spam page would have broken the rules, the later page with the same name doesn't
< 1756315239 966765 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :creating a spam page with the intent of later editing it into an esolang would be disallowed, but probably should be?
< 1756315385 901676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmpl $0xfffffffe, (%rax)
< 1756315389 767777 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :83 38 fe: cmpl $0xfffffffe,(%rax)
< 1756315391 997196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's hard to /define/ a minimum standard for an esolang. And is anybody going to wade through the existing slop of stubby, non-computing, and example-only languages?
< 1756315404 795163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmpq $0xfffffffe, (%rax)
< 1756315406 443922 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `cmp'
< 1756315429 268461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding cmpq $0xfffffffffffffffe, (%rax)
< 1756315430 904829 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 83 38 fe: cmpq $0xfffffffffffffffe,(%rax)
< 1756315431 557413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(non-computing: there are a number of constant output languages, for starters)
< 1756315463 986469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a constant output language is still well-defined, the main issue is whether it even counts as a programming language (although I think it's OK for esolangs.org to investigate that issue / document thoughts about it)
< 1756315489 815256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it might make sense to group those languages onto a single page, especially if there is nothing to say about them beyond what string they print
< 1756315503 644610 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Suppose I come across a page like [[esolang:awesome commons liscence]]. How would you like me to mark it? I can create talk pages in every case if you like.
< 1756315521 517247 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That could be done on a single "meta" page that captures the whole class of constant output languages.
< 1756315547 925820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: right
< 1756315568 548142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure, normally I just delete those things when someone brings my attention to them
> 1756315590 105716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Esolang:Awesome commons liscence10]]": offtopic
< 1756315592 123390 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Is it time to make [[constant language]]? We just have to figure out the bikeshed at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization#Constant_languages
< 1756315777 241360 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756315778 436217 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Hmm, I see that the point has been made there already.
< 1756315917 217743 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ais523 brought it up)
> 1756315972 465215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALMBARC12YO14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163930&oldid=127498 5* 03Corbin 5* (+32) 10Identify a TBS.
< 1756316012 244816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I wasn't thinking that it overflows to infinity, I thought it would overflow to a finite number from which if you subtract 1 it doesn't change, but you're right, that doesn't work. I'll have to think if there's something similar that could work though, like maybe if you add 0.5 bias or something.
< 1756316034 2951 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Apparently many of the youngsters are refugees from a Fandom wiki: https://amogus.fandom.com/wiki/Amogus_Wiki
> 1756316068 245248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163931&oldid=163929 5* 03Int-e 5* (+1) 10/* This is a spam machine, please delete */ fix typo
> 1756316082 614854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AmogusScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163932&oldid=117800 5* 03Corbin 5* (-51) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316096 119095 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't normally in a register alraedy => that's the advantage of using an integer, because the instructions that I use (cmp, test, adc, sbb) work with a memory output operand
< 1756316175 643654 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas eg. the cmovb instruction only works with register output operand, and I think that's true for SSE2 floating point operands too, but maybe AVX512 changes that or something
< 1756316197 580561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: A lot of this is a matter of finding the energy to actually consolidate existing contents. Though I guess that there's also value in having a page to point to for new additions, lowering the bar for deletions.
> 1756316215 31766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163933 5* 03Corbin 5* (+407) 10Use a proper pastebin please.
< 1756316224 317285 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I, for one, don't see myself actually going through pages looking for existing constant languages.
< 1756316233 582842 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I admit that the just two instructions for incrementing or decrementing only works in the simplest case, often you'll have more instructions than that
< 1756316241 275989 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I hope to demonstrate that I have the energy and what I am mostly looking for is consensus on what to do.
> 1756316312 213340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Among Us14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163934&oldid=117793 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316396 588435 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I would like to hear the details of how you'd use the floating point method, I can't tell yet how simple it is
> 1756316437 188185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163935&oldid=117855 5* 03Corbin 5* (-40) 10Fix categories.
> 1756316472 126754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163936&oldid=83342 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-8) 10
> 1756316493 226425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AZZTURBLICHINORTYEUSIACNOSIPTYRUTIEOSUNEMEEETIRMSPLAORRRRRRRRRRRRRRHSIFUGISSFGIUUUUUUUUUUUUGUIGSEIUFGYUSGNYGNXWGNYX123456789012345678901145141919810TROSHPPAOCONALMELANGUAGE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163937&oldid=125068 5* 03Corbin 5* (-22) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316560 692151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: changing the referencing count is just a multiply by 2 / divide by 2, but you would indeed need another instruction to check if it had become zero (only for decrements, though, for obvious reaosns)
> 1756316575 255384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JamogusLamogusAmogus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163938&oldid=120041 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316591 905816 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, multiply by 0.5, not divide by 2, obviously
< 1756316611 252149 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the float instructions don't allow literals, so you would need an extra instruction to load the value of the constant to multiply/divide by
< 1756316615 818052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, the float method is probably less efficient
> 1756316639 493754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LOLSUS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163939&oldid=117799 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316673 778998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, the float versions would SIMDify much better, but it's hard to imagine how that situation would ever come up
< 1756316692 924748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess if you were using scatter/gather to operate on four different reference-counted things in parallel…
< 1756316722 619587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh I think I've just arrived at the same preexisting esolang idea... because while the wiki is ostensibly about documenting esolangs, as a reader it's much more valuable to have a diversity of ideas. And if you make up an esolang just because you want to leave a mark on the wiki... well... it's likely to be another instance of the most unoriginal concepts that we already have a dozen...
< 1756316723 191633 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I got that part, but I'm less familiar with how the floating point instructions work than the integer, especially how easily you can do a conditional call when the last reference is freed, and whether avx2 or avx512 could help with this in some way.
< 1756316728 626884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...times on the wiki.
> 1756316766 793000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163940&oldid=117791 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Fix categories.
> 1756316810 303914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163941&oldid=117795 5* 03Corbin 5* (-17) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316830 326679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: looks like the instruction you'd need is UCOMISS (SSE and later)
< 1756316845 636529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Maybe we should require rationales... "Why another esolang?" :-P )
> 1756316854 603601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Suscript 2.014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163942&oldid=119407 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Fix categories.
< 1756316888 647474 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's nice
< 1756316890 761410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :UCOMISS a, b is very similar to CMP a, b except that it sets the parity flag if either a or b is a NaN
< 1756316899 729943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and works on floats rather than ints
< 1756316910 171694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's UCOMISD too, for doubles
> 1756316948 779477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163943&oldid=117798 5* 03Corbin 5* (+8) 10Fix categories.
> 1756317010 623874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07This esoteric programming language has one of the longest titles, and yet it only has one command, which is such a shame, but there is no way to undo it so we may as well stick with it14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163944&oldid=149502 5* 03Corbin 5* (-36) 10Fix categories and formatting.
> 1756317047 758812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07When the Imposter is Sus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163945&oldid=124399 5* 03Corbin 5* (-16) 10Fix categories.
> 1756317114 414853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163946&oldid=120451 5* 03Corbin 5* (-17) 10Fix categories.
> 1756317189 894921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163947&oldid=158968 5* 03Corbin 5* (-17) 10Fix categories.
> 1756317213 214997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163948&oldid=132865 5* 03Corbin 5* (-17) 10Fix categories.
< 1756317263 703259 :Everything!~Everythin@31.144.53.103 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1756317513 793116 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so there's still one extra instruction to load a constant 0.5 into a register before you mulsd for decreasing the reference count, but you only need one instruction to tell whether the last reference is gone and put the result into eflags on which you can do a conditional jump
< 1756317573 126684 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or perhaps it's better to say that there's an extra instruction to store the reference count after
< 1756317821 579833 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good property of the adc/sbb implementation is that you can do it directly on memory with a RMW instruction and have the flags set already
< 1756317949 419270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like LLVM doesn't produce an implementation anything like that one, from naive code: https://rust.godbolt.org/z/PPf9ErjTr
< 1756317985 117155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :using u32 rather than i32 doesn't help either
< 1756318054 425907 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't realized the float comparison would be so simple, I thought you needed a longer sequence of instructions
< 1756318076 819857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now I'm wondering whether it's faster to read the same memory address twice in a row with the second being an RMW, or to load the value into a register, read and RMW the register, and store the register again
< 1756318130 96551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you want sbb to avoid the conditional jump
< 1756318149 981339 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and floats because inf/2 = inf
< 1756318152 671548 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think it can go either way depending on what else you do around that.
< 1756318162 131955 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: right
< 1756318164 305703 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION is piecing together the context, slowly
< 1756318209 8181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the optimisation is probably actually invalid in Rust, I forgot that Rust's current semantics ban speculative writes to &mut data
< 1756318231 643838 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't specifically want to avoid the conditional jump, it's just that this is fewer instructions either way... although to be fair the cpu can often merge a cmp followed by a conditional jump to a microinstruction so it might be almost as good
< 1756318238 516451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. the compiler is not allowed to generate a write to a memory address unless it is written in the naive program execution, even if mutably borrowed (what if you had an &mut to a read-only page and used its value to determine whether it was read-only or not?)
< 1756318261 325319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but adding a *refcount += 0 at the start doesn't change things
< 1756318275 788514 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't claim that the sbc solution that I said is optimal either, I only said that it's simpler than I can imagine any solution with floats will be
< 1756318292 444223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is simpler than I was expecting for an integer-register solution
< 1756318397 458128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://rust.godbolt.org/z/17ezf3Pbj produces a cmov
< 1756318456 177233 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but you could say that it's also very much on the nose about what kind of code I want)
< 1756318499 213140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you changed the sense of the return value there
< 1756318509 100476 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's supposed to return true if the refcount fell to 0
< 1756318516 615737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1756318535 670528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it won't matter, it's just setne vs. sete
< 1756318537 788005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my best so far is https://rust.godbolt.org/z/x49dKMov7
< 1756318546 96951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: no, you are returning the result of the comparison to INT_MAX
< 1756318556 306178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not whether the decrement made the value
< 1756318556 676251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh!
< 1756318559 12754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* made the value 0
< 1756318588 58249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I'd have to use rc == 1... and that does produce worse code
< 1756318599 378194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(instead of true)
< 1756318607 357133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay, I retract my "huh"
< 1756318643 411198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my version which unreachable_unchecked the subtraction to not negative-overflow does seem to be able to reuse the carry bit from the subtraction
< 1756318657 266764 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it isn't using it as an input to sbb
< 1756318897 774457 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried writing b_jonas's assembly as a direct translation to Rust, using «let (new_refcount, _) = refcount.borrowing_sub(0, *refcount <= u32::MAX - 1);», but it still didn't generate an sbb instruction (which is a bit of a shame because borrowing_sub exists more or less directly as an interface to the sbb instruction)
< 1756318906 290181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, I should say will exist, it's still unstable
< 1756318931 962250 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what type is refcount?
< 1756318935 58173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :u32
< 1756318937 505963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, *mut u32
< 1756318941 87279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* &mut u32
< 1756318954 240605 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I saw an i32 in int-e's code and that's what got me scared here
< 1756318966 158505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I started with i32 then changed to u32 because this doesn't need to go negative
< 1756318987 278368 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and the problem isn't that rust is doing some overflow checking here?
< 1756319009 589790 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an unreachable_unchecked to tell the compiler to optimise as though there can't be a negative overflow
< 1756319031 676397 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and it does indeed do that, by using the carry flag after the subtraction as the return from the function)
< 1756319126 782849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: *refcount -= (*refcount != u32::MAX) as u32; behaves decently too
< 1756319130 375778 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION shrugs
< 1756319133 416187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but no sbb)
< 1756319150 565344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did that earlier, same decent but sbbless code
< 1756319188 265660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are all these processor instructions like sbb and rcr that compilers will hardly ever generate (I do see sbb in code that operates on 128-bit integers but it may be a special case in the compiler)
< 1756319217 406222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :related: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/43016
< 1756319219 101929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rcr has horrible performance if the shift argument isn't a hardcoded 1, but that's usually the argument you actually want in practice
< 1756319290 458482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I agree it's related, although it looks like a different optimisation
< 1756319318 805721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah the pattern is a bit different, more about producing an intermediate 0 or -1
> 1756319319 886816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163949 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2746) 10Stub a concept.
< 1756319340 237583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular it's generating specifically code that sbbs a register from itself
< 1756319355 834067 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and points out that the performance of that depends on the processor (some processors have a false dependency on that, others don't)
< 1756319455 397458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does LLMV have sbb "natively" or only in a late peephole phase, I wonder.
< 1756319499 779672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e: ^^ This is the page that I'll use as a bluelink when tearing down [[category:nope. derivatives]]. I'm also willing to tear down [[category:User Edited]], which wasn't discussed. In general, it seems PaxtonPenguin isn't really fond of following rules about creating pages; they also have a sandbox.
< 1756319506 646198 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in BASICs, what's the semantics of NEXT when GOTOs into or out of the loop can be involved? does NEXT effectively scan backwards in the code in line number order to find the matching FOR skipping balanced FOR-NEXT pairs, ignoring actual GOTO control flow? or, in older BASICs, scan backwards in line number order to find the FOR with the same variable name, ignoring actual control flow? or does it work
< 1756319512 654819 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :differently and you have to execute the FOR to remember at runtime where NEXT will jump to?
< 1756319522 660388 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and similar question for WEND in later BASICs
< 1756319546 885962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think I ever actually tried it, even though I used to write quite a lot of BASIC when I was young
< 1756319554 210490 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nighty-Night! cu! *wave*
< 1756319557 778199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night APic
< 1756319587 78420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally thought of goto-based and structured-programming-based programming styles as separate and didn't try to mix them
< 1756319639 207618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't think I thought of the possibility even of jumping out of a loop until I started writing in extremely-old-fashioned C++ instead
> 1756319652 404259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163950&oldid=163708 5* 03Corbin 5* (-10) 10/* History */ Bluelink.
< 1756319663 29814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm asking because the new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Jtv8hvau4 shows a BASIC code that has jumps out then back into the FOR-NEXT loop, because this is the dialect of BASIC where the IF statement can only GOTO, and the bodies of the IF conditionals are written outside of the loop rather than written inline and skipped over
< 1756319693 482698 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it only jumps into a FOR loop when it recently jumped out of it
< 1756319712 130015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not asking about the semantics of that code in particular, but in general for more tricky programs
< 1756319762 781811 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a perfectly reasonable question, I just don't know the answer because I never tried it
< 1756319774 286046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my guess would be the "scan backwards" approach but it's just a guess
< 1756319803 794807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I kind-of expect most BASICs with FOR…NEXT to cache which FORs match which NEXTs, so that no actual scan is needed)
< 1756319950 959496 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.125.93 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756320082 825729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe
> 1756320138 926709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163951&oldid=163949 5* 03Corbin 5* (+222) 10Technically recognizing a quine-avoiding constant language is at most L, not NONE; some effort is required. But I bet it's more like AC.
< 1756320143 582172 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, I don't have a use for this now, I am not writing BASIC programs to old systems with limited memory where I'd want tricks like that for optimization, and I don't want to write a basic interpreter
> 1756320249 962412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163952&oldid=163951 5* 03Corbin 5* (+101) 10/* Quine avoidance */ More words. Trying to keep a reasonable amount of humor.
> 1756320770 730938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRAND LEMURE!!114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163953 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+145) 10Created page with "This is a weird esolang in which I JUST WANNA EXIST ==Hello World:== so grand man oui oui Andes le krouche "Worlde' Hllo" Crunde le vange."
> 1756320852 267832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRAND LEMURE!!114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163954&oldid=163953 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+84) 10/* Hello World: */
< 1756320858 309341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1756320934 642530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* 10New user account
> 1756320981 712179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ewankalite14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163955 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+348) 10Created page with "[[ewankalite]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] in which valid programs are ''''- wait... lemme focus
[[GRAND LEMURE!!1]]
and it's even weirder than grand lemure
Look: oot$hift 454t68 'gheloaWreLed' ===\=++ e bottles of beer on the wa
> 1756321042 129064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163956&oldid=163863 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+49) 10
> 1756321487 666906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163957&oldid=163894 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+160) 10/* Introductions */
> 1756321512 85881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine with Quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163958 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+3391) 10Created page with "lang without Quine with Quine is an esolang made by WE135. As in lang without Quine, if you put 1956 -..."
> 1756321570 360819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine with Quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163959&oldid=163958 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+0) 10
< 1756322184 21087 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756322274 736584 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756322279 371057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MODULARBALL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163960 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2896) 10not sure if it would be possible to implement anything using this but I'll throw it out here anyways
> 1756322407 580740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163961&oldid=163952 5* 03Corbin 5* (+300) 10Hack out a denotative abstraction.
> 1756322450 719437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163962 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+996) 10Created page with "== mfsbpltthann == My name is V tgbjmehny, which as you can see is just random letters my esolang: === Name: === my first stack based programming language that totally has a normal name === How it works: === new [name of varable] push [name of var
> 1756322482 771627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163963&oldid=163359 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+84) 10/* my own esolangs */ add [[MODULARBALL]]
> 1756322490 450663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163964&oldid=163962 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+3) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1756322559 629748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163965&oldid=163924 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+18) 10/* M */ add [[MODULARBALL]]
> 1756322573 748391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163966&oldid=163964 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+1) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1756322599 554538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163967&oldid=163966 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+14) 10/* How it works: */ code structuring
> 1756322697 152968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163968&oldid=163947 5* 03Corbin 5* (+4) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756322733 770798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163969&oldid=163967 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+11) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1756322746 18177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163970&oldid=163969 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (-11) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1756322752 725965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163971&oldid=163948 5* 03Corbin 5* (+28) 10Identify a QACL.
> 1756322876 380172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163972&oldid=163096 5* 03Corbin 5* (-49) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756322905 104861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:BG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163973 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+144) 10Created page with " {{{2}}}
This is used to give a background color to your text."
> 1756322915 296981 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163974&oldid=163970 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+13) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1756322954 606234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07No.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163975&oldid=160719 5* 03Corbin 5* (-87) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756322961 999877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163976&oldid=163974 5* 03V tgbjmehny 5* (+13) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1756323043 460285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07No.pe.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163977&oldid=136251 5* 03Corbin 5* (+26) 10Identify a QACL.
> 1756323137 584195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07No.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163978&oldid=163975 5* 03Corbin 5* (-24) 10/* Interpreters */ Bluelinks.
> 1756323212 234148 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163979&oldid=140987 5* 03Corbin 5* (+39) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756323258 903098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/SIGNATURE SANDBOX14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163980 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+343) 10Created page with "{{SUBST:BG|blue|{{SUBST:Font color|yellow|}}}}{{SUBST:BG|green|{{SUBST:Font color|white|}}}}{{SUBST:BG|yellow|{{SUBST:Font color|red|}}}}Don't ask me. [[WarzokERNST135]]"
> 1756323346 318902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 without a Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163981&oldid=141390 5* 03Corbin 5* (+113) 10Identify a QACL.
> 1756323453 473050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163982&oldid=163562 5* 03Corbin 5* (-31) 10Fix categories.
> 1756323637 265218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Violation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163983&oldid=135687 5* 03Corbin 5* (+115) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756323751 833381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/SIGNATURE SANDBOX14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163984&oldid=163980 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-46) 10
> 1756323918 572811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163985&oldid=163976 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-2) 10/* bye! */
< 1756324254 27822 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[template:lang]] is curious. I wish that they *discussed* this sort of thing first.
> 1756324254 288061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163986&oldid=163931 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+383) 10/* Server 4 */
> 1756324343 140036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163987&oldid=163986 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+1) 10
> 1756324390 245594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unmatched (14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163988&oldid=151391 5* 03Corbin 5* (-43) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756324482 743395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minim14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163989&oldid=123494 5* 03KakkoiiChris 5* (+2) 10Fixed spelling, added formatting, and changed some wording.
> 1756324486 449231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TW'sLE!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163990&oldid=145894 5* 03Corbin 5* (-22) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756324737 779462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permission denied14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163991&oldid=149943 5* 03Corbin 5* (-40) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756324833 404583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NOP (esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163992&oldid=149109 5* 03Corbin 5* (-8) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756324900 651799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163993&oldid=151386 5* 03Corbin 5* (+37) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756324952 765514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MAIACORD14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163994&oldid=156711 5* 03Corbin 5* (-31) 10Fix categories.
< 1756325085 545839 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756325094 324148 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
> 1756325192 705970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Machine-language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163995&oldid=162175 5* 03Corbin 5* (+143) 10Fix categories. This joke isn't actually a language and certainly isn't TC, although it is funny and good food for thought.
> 1756325298 387712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Anti-Machine language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163996&oldid=162247 5* 03Corbin 5* (-82) 10Fix categories. This language cannot be implemented on a machine, so it hasn't actually been implemented.
> 1756325374 221567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kiwiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163997&oldid=150461 5* 03Corbin 5* (-105) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756325495 684783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello,world!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163998&oldid=160068 5* 03Corbin 5* (-108) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756325596 40753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fizzbuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163999&oldid=146667 5* 03Corbin 5* (-130) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756325634 188305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Output (WarzokERNST135)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164000 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+197) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} this is an esolang made by WE135 in which every thing inputted to it just makes it output "output". == Quine == output == Self interpreter == Make your own interpreters!!"
> 1756325718 59201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164001&oldid=163512 5* 03Corbin 5* (-52) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756325758 235565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Durge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164002&oldid=156040 5* 03Corbin 5* (-31) 10Fix categories.
> 1756325818 417026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compute14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164003&oldid=126216 5* 03Corbin 5* (-11) 10Fix categories.
> 1756326128 492915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/recursive14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164004 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+31) 10Created page with "{{User:Tommyaweosme/recursive}}"
> 1756326360 350419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Pages with template loops14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164005 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+58) 10Created page with "This category is about the pages that have template loops."
> 1756326476 573780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164006&oldid=154681 5* 03Corbin 5* (+65) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756326522 187205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello, golf!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164007&oldid=125959 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756326564 376179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164008&oldid=160706 5* 03Corbin 5* (-22) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756326621 221893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arch is the best!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164009&oldid=163049 5* 03Corbin 5* (+36) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756326662 422883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NoQuinebrainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164010 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+64) 10Created page with "same as brainfuck but using H returns a error"
> 1756326682 507217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Pages with template loops14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164011 5* 03Corbin 5* (+151) 10Discuss first, please.
> 1756326724 20343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Segmentation fault14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164012&oldid=139788 5* 03Corbin 5* (-55) 10Fix categories.
> 1756326778 341640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164013&oldid=163486 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+468) 10
> 1756326833 726152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164014&oldid=137699 5* 03Corbin 5* (+62) 10Identify a QACL.
> 1756326894 797406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164015&oldid=163807 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
> 1756326896 452203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164016&oldid=133490 5* 03Corbin 5* (-12) 10Identify a CL.
> 1756326916 50442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164017&oldid=164014 5* 03Corbin 5* (-31) 10Fix categories.
> 1756327023 137978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arch is the best!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164018&oldid=164009 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+54) 10/* See also */
> 1756327189 949954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rickroll14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164019&oldid=119667 5* 03Corbin 5* (-36) 10Identify a CL. Note that [[Never Gonna Give You Up]] doesn't actually require the entire lyrics to be emitted, so the quine's only correct if this is in fact a CL.
< 1756327212 225640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: [[category:nope. derivatives]] has been emptied out.
> 1756327229 904218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164020&oldid=163901 5* 03H33T33 5* (+9) 10
> 1756327356 923431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unmatched (14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164021&oldid=163988 5* 03Corbin 5* (-41) 10
> 1756327378 619669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language of Laughing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164022&oldid=119819 5* 03Corbin 5* (-27) 10Fix categories.
> 1756327400 960701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stupidc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164023&oldid=86386 5* 03Corbin 5* (-27) 10Fix categories.
> 1756327415 525708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StupidBASIC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164024&oldid=81532 5* 03Corbin 5* (-27) 10Fix categories.
< 1756327430 40163 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[category:stupid family]] has been emptied out too.
> 1756327509 930743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Output (WarzokERNST135)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164025&oldid=164000 5* 03Corbin 5* (+114) 10Identify a CL. Add some categories.
> 1756327511 690772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:TheSquare14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164026&oldid=8546 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+43) 10
> 1756327574 646877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arch is the best! without a quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164027&oldid=163458 5* 03Corbin 5* (+13) 10Identify a QACL.
> 1756327995 661828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ConstantLanguage()14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164028 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+662) 10Created page with "[[ConstantLanguage()]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]] in which its only functionality is to make a constant language.
Here is an example of the constant language "Hello, world!": ConstantLanguage("Hello, world!") It works like this: :When
> 1756328012 703730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164029&oldid=163956 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+27) 10
> 1756328743 104195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164030&oldid=164013 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+386) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */
> 1756328813 381832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Psychopaths14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164031 5* 03Corbin 5* (+424) 10Unusable for programming? Maybe.
> 1756328943 268560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164032&oldid=164030 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+362) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */
> 1756329008 546461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164033 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+65) 10Created page with "THIS IS A FREE LANGUAGE FOR EVERYONE!!!! [[Category:User Edited]]"
> 1756329238 343420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Unicornloverinf 5* 10New user account
> 1756329306 161952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164034&oldid=164033 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+194) 10
> 1756329315 607776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164035&oldid=164034 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10keyboard fumble
> 1756329356 463457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164036&oldid=164032 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */ bamboozled!
> 1756329490 343918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164037&oldid=163957 5* 03Unicornloverinf 5* (+245) 10/* Introductions */
< 1756329663 29525 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:e4be:35da:9f42:3b49 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756330195 29562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07P2WFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164038&oldid=163893 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+70) 10
> 1756331224 264870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164039&oldid=163979 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+22) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1756331598 864165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ewankalite14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164040&oldid=163955 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
> 1756331828 771309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tpcs print.png10]]"
> 1756331907 625912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tpcs set variable pretzel.png10]]"
> 1756332250 632608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tpcs repeat until.png10]]"
> 1756332259 883535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tpcs hello world.png10]]"
> 1756332299 468705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tpcs truth machine.png10]]"
> 1756332333 939783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Twisted Python Chat Server14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164046&oldid=25232 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+240) 10
< 1756333890 746830 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756333912 885763 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756335491 543593 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756337852 385343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:YOUR TAKING TOO LONG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164047&oldid=161022 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+233) 10
> 1756338162 596811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cinnamony14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164048&oldid=154214 5* 03Cinnamony 5* (+202) 10this is actually tommyaweosme, cinnamony is my former account
> 1756340125 823614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Nope. derivatives10]]": unapproved category that is very likely misnamed, and would have had a better name if it were discussed (but we may end up using a list page instead)
> 1756340143 909072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164049&oldid=160188 5* 03Ais523 5* (-34) 10/* Derivatives */ rm undiscussed category
> 1756340181 406062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164050&oldid=163818 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-689) 10
> 1756340184 951204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:/w/api.php/hidebots=1/urlversion=1/days=30/limit=50/action=feedrecentchanges/feedformat=atom10]]": page in userspace that does not correspond to an existing user
> 1756340262 973827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Pages with template loops14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164051&oldid=164011 5* 03Ais523 5* (+389) 10this s a MediaWiki auto-category
> 1756340363 942744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Joke examples10]]": undiscussed category, currently unused
> 1756340399 765953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Process measurement and control10]]": undiscussed category, currently unused this may have been a category created in the hope that people would create languages to add to it, but that isn't how the categorisation system works
> 1756340414 39387 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Stupid family10]]": unapproved category
< 1756340423 246434 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ki'esai! Thank you so much.
> 1756340476 15873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Category:Tutorials10]]": unapproved category (this is possibly a good idea, but in any case it contains no pages, so it isn't useful unless someone actually writes some tutorials, and those could probably go in [[Category:Programming techniques]])
> 1756340533 619187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164052&oldid=164049 5* 03Ais523 5* (+97) 10/* Miscellaneous */ add [[Category:Programming techniques]], which predates the "categories must be discussed" rule and was added by the same person
> 1756340672 81670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164053&oldid=164036 5* 03Ais523 5* (-558) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */ edit out overly long signature
> 1756340721 426650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164054&oldid=164053 5* 03Ais523 5* (+536) 10/* Category: Templates with page loops */ some thoughts
< 1756340811 157887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756340851 852804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not convinced your mention of Rice's theorem on the constant language page is correct – Rice's theorem has two conditions, a) that the property is true for at least one program and false for at least one program, and b) that the language is able to represent all computable functions
< 1756340872 501894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although constant languages make a) impossible to satisfy, they don't satisfy b) either, making the lack of satisfaction of a) irrelevant
< 1756340899 500472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :condition a) is mostly there to exclude trivial properties like "the program starts executing", which would otherwise be counterexamples
< 1756340963 444626 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's fair. (b) is really the issue there.
< 1756341048 90931 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW the computable-universe perspective has a natural excuse for (a). We're given a blackbox semantic computer N → N and asked to figure out *any* property of it. Well, since the blackbox can be partial, we can't *run* the computer. That'd immediately risk not returning. The only thing we can do without poking the box is return a chosen point of the codomain.
< 1756341095 343836 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Since the codomain is traditionally 2, there are two natural points that we can choose, each given by a constant arrow.
> 1756341220 78252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164055&oldid=163961 5* 03Corbin 5* (-18) 10Rice's theorem is basically not relevant since constant languages can't represent any interesting computations. Pointed out by ais523 on IRC.
< 1756341258 927887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the codomain doesn't really matter here, 2 is just the smallest codomain needed to give a useful result and it's possible to generalise up to bigger codomains from there
> 1756341334 606330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164056&oldid=163925 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-1) 10fixing typo
> 1756341517 558504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164057&oldid=160736 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+129) 10
> 1756341527 444183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164058&oldid=164057 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+251) 10
> 1756345881 805219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164059&oldid=164058 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+127) 10/* HTML programs */
> 1756346288 26858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang wiki graph with 24 nodes.png10]]"
> 1756346310 331888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164061&oldid=164050 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+208) 10/* Ideas */
> 1756346315 322919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164062&oldid=163891 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+46) 10
> 1756346325 388288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164063&oldid=164061 5* 03XP2PHOENIX 5* (+92) 10/* Ideas */
< 1756346549 42599 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756346558 274438 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1756347292 936348 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756347368 55606 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1756348026 714350 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756348039 223714 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1756348119 714010 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756348133 935458 :tetsuo-cpp!sid672509@id-672509.hampstead.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs tetsuo-cpp :tetsuo-cpp
< 1756349338 936376 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756349348 561591 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
> 1756352362 923257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Psychopaths14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164064&oldid=122940 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10Change description
> 1756352789 236215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164065 5* 03None1 5* (+652) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} It ignores the code and always executes a [[brainfuck]] interpreter. Since it ignores the code, it is a [[no-code esolang]]. ==Examples== ===[[brainfuck]] interpreter=== Any text can go here. ===[[Self-interpreter]]=== Any text can go here. ==
> 1756352796 243526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164066&oldid=164065 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1756352825 219814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfucking14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164067&oldid=164066 5* 03None1 5* (+28) 10
> 1756352920 619478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164068&oldid=163039 5* 03None1 5* (+82) 10/* General languages */
> 1756352941 510345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164069&oldid=164068 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* General languages */
> 1756353036 417579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164070&oldid=163754 5* 03None1 5* (+82) 10
> 1756353125 58168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permission denied14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164071&oldid=163991 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Example Programs */
> 1756353225 506445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permission denied14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164072&oldid=164071 5* 03None1 5* (+45) 10/* Implementations */
< 1756353389 686496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1756353818 681162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constellation Cradle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164073 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1630) 10stars and stuff i guess
> 1756353951 487871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constellation Cradle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164074&oldid=164073 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+142) 10credit
< 1756354871 957643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756355177 965284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1756361211 979010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164075&oldid=164056 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+103) 10/* Server 2 */
< 1756361834 4642 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756362698 800332 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756364801 796753 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756365389 2937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StupidStackLanguage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164076&oldid=145296 5* 03Lebster 5* (-1868) 10Rework interpreters
< 1756365974 20934 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1756366032 755530 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756367074 109599 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1756367976 555887 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1756368876 52747 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1756368892 608890 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1756369487 460927 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756372126 908349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164077&oldid=164075 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+40) 10/* Server 2 */
> 1756372687 7599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164078&oldid=163927 5* 03Pro465 5* (+106) 10/* Cat program */ add smaller cat
> 1756374707 425969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ClickUp 5* 10New user account
> 1756375703 980831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164079&oldid=164077 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+13) 10
> 1756375856 317598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164080&oldid=164079 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+11) 10
> 1756375945 185994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164081&oldid=164080 5* 03C0ffee 5* (+33) 10
> 1756377768 274018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Permufuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164082&oldid=164078 5* 03Pro465 5* (-106) 10/* Cat program */ Olus hasn't gotten got
< 1756378598 855890 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756380370 738741 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1756381129 444931 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756381339 208785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Intiha420 5* 10New user account
< 1756381427 502154 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756381906 927589 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756382665 296409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164083&oldid=164081 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-14) 10Add to server 2/4/4.5
> 1756382816 88891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wenyan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164084&oldid=146226 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+150) 10
< 1756385128 160181 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-001-015-185.178.001.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
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> 1756385897 626415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164085&oldid=164054 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+963) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ new section
> 1756386767 813325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164086&oldid=164085 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+105) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */
< 1756387801 660339 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1756387951 845491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164087&oldid=163890 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+28) 10Add Turing complete category (I'm practically certain it is, but I don't have an explicit construction)
> 1756388098 115325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PureFun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164088 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+3731) 10Created page with "PureFun is designed by PSTF, where everything are functions. It is based on [[Lambda calculus]]. = Core Principles = All values are functions: Booleans, numbers, pairs, and even control structures are defined as functions. Evaluation Strategy: Use lazy evaluati
> 1756388171 780623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164089&oldid=163965 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14) 10
< 1756390548 602822 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756391485 219282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ahineya 5* 10New user account
> 1756391746 872489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164090&oldid=164037 5* 03Ahineya 5* (+204) 10/* Introductions */
> 1756391766 816328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164091&oldid=164090 5* 03Ahineya 5* (-1) 10/* Introductions */
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> 1756392535 254667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Velato Hello, world! program in double sheets.png10]]": This is the dual stave version of the program "Hello, world!" in Velato, created by PrySigneToFry on Musescore 3.
> 1756392808 144364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164093&oldid=164086 5* 03Corbin 5* (+750) 10/* "Nope. derivatives" VS "Constant languages" */ Too little too late.
> 1756392909 180751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PureFun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164094 5* 03Corbin 5* (+126) 10Tastes like RLHF.
< 1756393493 371347 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have lmarena.ai open in a tab and I'm feeding snippets of wiki to it. I promise that I'm not being nefarious; I want to understand what some of our younger non-Anglophone speakers are grasping, given that they appear to be heavily reliant on LLMs for translation and generation.
> 1756394398 337054 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Merriment14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164095&oldid=164087 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+17) 10Add links to other languages
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> 1756395246 154831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Semi-serious language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164096&oldid=163791 5* 03Ais523 5* (+25) 10/* R */ +[[Reversible Bitfuck]] I think this is different enough from the original language to count (the programming style is somewhat different)
< 1756395537 213352 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm. I'm reading the old discussions about quines, particularly about quineless TC languages, and it feels like there's some incommensurability. Like, folks are aware of Kleene's fixed point, but not of its implications.
< 1756395692 725752 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My thinking is that the set of natural numbers N has the fixed-point property in a computable universe: all computable maps N → N have a fixed point, and moreover they're defined at that fixed point. The theorem is constructive and proceeds directly from the fact that a computable universe has enumerations for all objects, including internalized maps [N, N].
< 1756395775 61147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, if one wants to have a quineless TC language, then one must start by reckoning with how their language will handle natural numbers and codes. I suspect that they'll find that they didn't really have a computable universe; they aren't actually able to enumerate some specific sort of first-class object.
< 1756396229 517918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm gonna work the example from https://wwwep.stewartsplace.org.uk/quines/quineless.html which is attributed to ais523. Consider the language that is the union of Iota and question-mark-prefixed strings like "?asdf", but without the empty string. The attached semantics: if question-marked, emit the string; otherwise, reduce the string as an Iota program.
< 1756396230 296844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought the typical quine-less TC language just picked program and output encodings that are disjoint
< 1756396292 77916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This language has semidecidable output! Just check whether the first bits are "?". So calling it "quineless TC" is a little unfair. It's TC in the sense that Iota is TC: interpreted as Iota, it's undecidable whether a program has a normal form under reductions.
< 1756396438 837189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and you can combine that with ais523's idea for adding arbitrary output capability)
< 1756396520 449298 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess, but I don't see how those can be usefully interleaved.
< 1756396640 159998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :take a language whose programs are non-empty strings over {0,1}, and whose outputs are strings over {a,b}; that's quine-less but can easily be TC. Add question-mark-followed-by-string-over {?,0,1,a,b} to make it "output-complete".
< 1756396653 577963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, I don't see how a clever encoding gets around the pipeline of TC-ness => Kleene's recursion => Rogers' fixed point => Gödel's diagonal lemma => Turing bird => self-application => WLOG access to own source code => quine.
< 1756396709 659428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The last step, "access to own source code => quine", runs into the output restriction.
< 1756396736 96630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the rest works, because you can pick suitable encodings for everything.
< 1756396838 358172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(IIUC ais523 takes this to its extreme by having a TC fragment that has no output at all)
< 1756396840 394528 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, then I think that the concept as documented is incoherent, or at least "evil" (varying under isomorphisms).
< 1756396909 374523 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To me, a quine is an instance of Quine's construction, where "is preceded by some quoted text" is preceded by some quoted text. It's a natural consequence of the existence of Turing birds, themselves ensured by the diagonal lemma.
< 1756396980 336645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, category-theoretically I cannot be stopped from reading "a language whose programs are non-empty strings over 2 and whose outputs are strings over 2"; in FinSet (or Set!) there's no way to tell the difference between two-element sets, so there's no way to use labeling to artificially separate the domain and codomain.
< 1756397394 759118 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the final step of your quine recipe, you have to be able to take a quotation and output its contents. And that's easy to subvert if you're willing to cripple the language's output capabilities.
< 1756397454 108829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :informally, you want to be able to print an arbitrary string that your program computed
< 1756397467 927221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(assuming your programs are strings)
< 1756397528 618454 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And lacking that capability feels rather artificial... especially if the sole reason you're doing that is to prevent quines.
< 1756397560 436882 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756397570 599462 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
< 1756397591 165472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can do more silly things... like, the interpreter can track program and output and the moment the output matches the program, append a multi-ocular o.
< 1756397620 754565 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It also contradicts the spirit of the concept, as introduced and explained by Hofstadter. I popped open GEB. He has an entire dialogue on the topic of Quine's construction where he focuses on use-mention. He talks about programming ergonomics but only to note that a language can make it *easier* to write a quine, not harder or impossible.
< 1756397628 316859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which also prevents quines, though it almost certainly won't prevent you from printing a program that's equivalent to the original program.
< 1756397665 460590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not without giving the interpreter super-computable powers)
< 1756397715 543840 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :His main goal was DNA, a non-output barely-language! p531: "There is a biochemical analogue to the use-mention dichotomy: when DNA is treated as a mere sequence of chemicals to be copied, it is like mention of typographical symbols; when DNA is dictating what operations shall be carried out, it is like use of typographical symbols."
< 1756397819 350432 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p530: "It is not by any means coincidental that the phrases 'sufficiently strong support system' and 'sufficiently powerful formal system' sound alike. One is the precondition for a self-rep to arise, the other for a self-ref to arise. In fact there is in essence only one phenomenon going on in two very different guises..."
< 1756398014 363651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p449, mapping between truthiness and provability: "preceding a predicate by itself, in quotes ('quining')" <=> "substituting the Gödel number of an open formula into the formula itself ('arithmoquining')"
< 1756398235 469547 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :p499, anticipating Muriel and ais523 somewhat: "In some computer language it might be a convention that nay program whose first symbol is an asterisk is to be copied before being executed normally. Then the program consisting of merely one asterisk is a self-rep! ...It is almost cheating to use the phrase 'this sentence' to achieve self-reference — it relies too much on the processor, and not enough on explicit directions for self-reference."
< 1756398300 561662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Using an asterisk as an example of a self-rep is like using the word 'I' as an example of a self-ref: both conceal all the interesting aspects of their respective problems. ... Before we call something a self-rep, we want to have the feeling that, to the maximum extent possible, it *explicitly* contains the directions for copying itself."
< 1756398477 664544 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :On p499 Hofstadter says that what we call quines, he calls "self-reproducing object[s]" or "self-rep[s]". Quining can build a self-rep in a sufficiently-strong system, but other self-reps are possible too.
< 1756398526 236558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: This isn't to yell at you, but to suggest that we've culturally misunderstood Hofstadter's definition and examples.
< 1756398655 864660 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Hehe, an author being misunderstood? Get in line... )
< 1756398774 425029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one way to get around output restrictions, btw, is to change the interface: rather than "asking" the program to print is own source code, ask it to answer computable queries about its source code.
< 1756398974 677298 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Though you need input capabilities for this. But we're far more used to dealing with encodings on that side.)
< 1756398999 264862 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I see much of a difference there. I'm still puzzled about output because the traditional formalisms I've listed on [[computable]] (lambda calculus, Diophantine equations, Turing machines, computable universes) don't have any notion of output. I'm not sure what I/O has to do with the story.
< 1756399080 449038 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, TMs do have output conventions. (At least two, a dedicated output tape, or the final state of the tape when the program terminates.)
< 1756399136 99518 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But anyway, output enters the picture because otherwise you have no mechanism for replication.
< 1756399146 977573 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION shrugs
< 1756399212 494519 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quining isn't about replication, but about quoting and self-reference. Self-reps can be generated by quining in sufficiently strong systems; that's the extent of the relationship between them.
< 1756399268 958290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the programming term "quine" has become to mean a program that prints its own source code and that requires output. I'm working backwards from that.
< 1756399276 142186 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that this is merely yet another case of programmers ignoring computer science.
< 1756399354 93467 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just don't think it's a big deal.
< 1756399476 166719 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not globally a big deal, no. I do think that the whole "quineless TC" meme is a good example of programmer hubris. I also think that there are global issues that fundamentally arise from programmer hubris. But it's not worth editing the page.
< 1756399608 45881 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, although it's not a big deal, TMs *don't* have output. TMs generalize pen-and-paper work, and there's no notion of output there. We have grown used to a particular fancy machine that Turing did not describe, and we justify ourselves because we can craft an output by summarizing the tape, or craft an input by preparing the tape, etc.
< 1756399689 645864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let me guess, when you say "TM" you insist on using Turing's original paper as the sole defintion, and exclude all the other flavors that people tend to use, some of which do have output.
< 1756399719 570520 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's the same sort of imprecision as saying that a language has semantics. Nope! A language has syntax: letters, grammar, etc. We typically *equip* a language with a chosen semantics and want all operations to be semantics-preserving. This is the difference between a standard category and a slice category.
< 1756399761 555508 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When it matters, yes, I'd like to use *exactly* the same abstracta as other mathematicians.
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< 1756399796 339194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mathematicians can't even agree on whether 0 is a natural number.
< 1756399879 730489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :0 is an element of the initial semiring, regardless of whether people say "natural number" or "whole number". I mean, I could literally analogize this with a functor: programmers can't even agree on whether the always-failing regex is a legal regex.
< 1756400145 593319 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756401815 209641 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1756401927 101576 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1756402272 598844 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756402432 247252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I always understood the "TC languages have a quine" rule as "any TC language is able to compute a representation of its own source code and perform arbitrary operations on it that the language allows" – but there is no requirement that the language is actually capable of outputting arbitrary strings, so it might not be able to output the source code even though it can compute it
< 1756402632 38033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this conversation has got me thinking about alternative formulations – some suggestions (above and on linked pages) more or less collapse to "any programming language that you can compile brainfuck into has a quine" and I think that may be correct
< 1756402665 379893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it may be correct even with BF-without-, (i.e. output only, no input)
< 1756402742 368494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it feels like there should be a diagonal argument here
< 1756402776 547725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but the existence of the BF-to-language-X compiler is important as that compiler itself – i.e. its source code – is one of the inputs to the diagonalisation proof)
< 1756402955 976344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You can do basically everything in Brainfuck for this: Write the compiler in Brainfuck, use quining so that it runs on itself as input. The other language just becomes an intermediate representation for a Brainfuck interpreter.
< 1756402966 245270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, yes, this is an easy argument: suppose you have a compiler from BF-without-input to language X, written in BF; you can write a BF program that starts by creating data structures containing the compiler's source code and (using standard quine tricks) its own source code, then uses a BF self-interpreter to run the compiler on its own source code, then prints the output
< 1756402976 213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, we had the same idea I think
< 1756402989 925029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the BF-to-language-X compiler must produce a quine when written on that program, if it didn't it would be incorrect
< 1756402996 648885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* when run on that program
< 1756403062 945463 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's that multi-language "Ouroboros" quine; that's related.
< 1756403065 133092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, this argument seems to only work because BF is deterministic
< 1756403129 376218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esoteric.codes/blog/the-128-language-quine-relay -- oh 7 years old already
< 1756403142 574900 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it still works as long as the compiler is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation, even if it doesn't always produce the same output
< 1756403183 718709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I find that uninteresting because it doesn't require any actual logic in most of the languages – you can use one language that contains 128 compilers from outputs to programs that print a constant string
< 1756403194 47726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and only have to do the quining logic once, in that language
< 1756403244 340043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally, to avoid this problem, a multilanguage quine is defined to be a program that takes a language name or identifier as input, and outputs itself translated into the given language
< 1756403291 196397 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :True; it's degenerate in that for many language you don't actually have a compiler, just something that can print arbitrary strings.
< 1756403322 1853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, only one of the languages even needs to be TC
< 1756403339 618003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can relay through Deadfish if you like (especially if the next language in the chain has a syntax that's a list of numbers)
< 1756403471 923010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a bit more interesting if you optimize for size.
< 1756403474 297231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> fix show
< 1756403475 793596 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
< 1756403528 924362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've seen some quine relays optimised for size, unless you're very careful with proper quine rules they normally end up as literals that print themselves
< 1756403547 408345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, program A is "1\n" which prints "1" in language A, program B is "1" which prints "1\n" in language B
< 1756403567 820146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't think there was ever a consensus about what specificially it is that makes a quine into a proper quine
< 1756403628 275956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, with error quines you can probably create a really big quine relay through thousands of languages that has distinct source code in all of them and reaches its starting point, but none of the programs do any interesting computation
< 1756403765 656946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the "payload-capable" definition would help a lot (i.e. you can insert (an encoding of) an arbitrary string into the quine and it survives around the whole loop), and is probably objectively definable
< 1756403919 824892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also imagined that we'd fix a set of languages to use. Or maybe the full cycle (with order). Like, that 128 languages quine-relay thing feels non-artificial in that it includes a ton of mainstream languages and goes through them in lexicographic order. I don't know whether candidate languages were specifically rejected for being too unwieldy of course.
< 1756403965 296594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh, one of them is Piet.
< 1756404062 236530 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You'll still cover the majority of languages with just string encoding of course, and pick the more expressive ones to actually do more elaborate recoding of everything.
< 1756404260 71262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1756404328 846429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To bridge between "is deterministic" and "is guaranteed to produce output that is a correct implementation", note that quining has some sort of quotation, and the contents of a quote have to be mentioned literally. It's the same use-mention quirk as with first-class and second-class syntactic constructs in general.
> 1756406139 79295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164097&oldid=164020 5* 03H33T33 5* (+589) 10
> 1756406213 465206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164098&oldid=164097 5* 03H33T33 5* (+89) 10
> 1756406229 704642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164099&oldid=164098 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
< 1756406817 100879 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] plutoasc333
< 1756406983 551442 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756406996 101620 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] plutoasc333
< 1756408175 441725 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756408196 686086 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com JOIN #esolangs xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756408589 102188 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1756408655 79167 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FP trivia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164100&oldid=102420 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (-11) 10/* Program Combinators are used in Infix Notation */
< 1756408858 100127 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] plutoasc333
< 1756409032 258895 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756409043 106028 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] plutoasc333
< 1756409107 684190 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756409170 150955 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] plutoasc333
< 1756409869 344970 :plutoasc333!~plutoasc3@50-50-232-168.waus.wi.frontiernet.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1756410153 861781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164101&oldid=164083 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+15) 10/* revreS 1 */
< 1756413641 518907 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1756414167 690042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/deadfish programs generated with the genetic algorithm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164102 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+143) 10Created page with "== 5-length programs == 6: isiso 8: issso == 9-length programs == 29: isisissio 32: isssssdio 65: issssssio 80: iisisssso 128: iisssssso"
> 1756414229 189170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/deadfish programs generated with the genetic algorithm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164103&oldid=164102 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+15) 10/* 9-length programs */
< 1756415347 489244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756416214 717170 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756419095 744563 :Pixton!~Pixton@2601:447:c001:2db0::16c2 JOIN #esolangs * :Pixton
< 1756419164 375173 :Pixton!~Pixton@2601:447:c001:2db0::16c2 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1756419694 318284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164104&oldid=164101 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+16) 10/* Server 7 */
> 1756419712 115920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164105&oldid=164104 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10/* Server 5 */
> 1756419844 379551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164106&oldid=164105 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10/* Server 4 */
> 1756424411 351417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07While true (cat)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164107&oldid=147183 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+14) 10lowercase
> 1756425091 670559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164108&oldid=163463 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+56) 10
> 1756427663 954934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164109&oldid=164063 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+140) 10
> 1756427673 54332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164110&oldid=164109 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10
> 1756427684 654093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164111&oldid=164110 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1756430060 566049 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1756431119 771850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck/Esointerpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164112&oldid=150416 5* 03None1 5* (+30) 10/* Cheating */
> 1756431558 230144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164113&oldid=164108 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+122) 10
> 1756431628 37884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PureFun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164114&oldid=164088 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
< 1756432243 496871 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1756432271 960721 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Client Quit
< 1756432289 777679 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1756433245 666439 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1756433273 126629 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1756437645 12550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PureFun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164115&oldid=164094 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+218) 10
> 1756437666 645114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:PureFun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164116&oldid=164115 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
> 1756437734 798698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Machine-language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164117&oldid=163995 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+24) 10
> 1756437918 4563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Anti-myself language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164118&oldid=142412 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+49) 10
> 1756438548 640474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Constant language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164119&oldid=164055 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+103) 10
> 1756438694 226421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164120&oldid=163971 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+798) 10
> 1756438781 844327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZeroDivisionError: Division by 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164121&oldid=137966 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+20) 10
> 1756439163 662438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rebellent Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164122&oldid=114999 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+137) 10
> 1756439734 676642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated SLet/3/Hotcrystal0 3rd time14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164123&oldid=163246 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+7) 10
< 1756441414 747558 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756442414 966585 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1756444109 324121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1756447941 395222 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had read about reversible computing that would use less power. I know some algorithms (e.g. ChaCha20) have some parts that are reversible, and I also don't know if a hybrid computer would help, nor how those specific reversible computing that they described is working; how is the instruction set, etc working
> 1756448093 872904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164124&oldid=163525 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+650) 10
< 1756449585 306355 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756450109 489611 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756451937 694588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164125&oldid=163516 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+221) 10
< 1756456053 93320 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756457561 626010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DWIM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164126&oldid=163076 5* 03Ttulka 5* (+0) 10/* Palindrome */
< 1756459453 866014 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1756459928 605050 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1756460235 874430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WriteOnly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164127&oldid=103421 5* 03WriteOnly 5* (+1) 10
< 1756461037 720691 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756463469 803329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164128&oldid=164125 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+64) 10
< 1756463799 68636 :mcfrdy!~mcfrdy@user/mcfrdy QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1756464971 566828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TheFK 5* 10New user account
> 1756465521 942422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NopLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164129&oldid=115825 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+33) 10
< 1756466307 304482 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756466741 974534 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756466801 509612 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1756466823 520423 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1756467412 603868 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1756467595 959894 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
> 1756467716 93622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164130&oldid=164091 5* 03TheFK 5* (+99) 10/* Introductions */
> 1756467869 21442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheFK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164131 5* 03TheFK 5* (+145) 10Created page with "==User:TheFK== Hello, i am TheFK(aka FK). i have a lot of interesting ideas of esolangs. ==My esolangs== Nothing here yet, but i working on this!"
> 1756467890 517452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheFK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164132&oldid=164131 5* 03TheFK 5* (-14) 10/* User:TheFK */
> 1756467935 66924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:TheFK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164133 5* 03TheFK 5* (+28) 10Created page with "Hello, this is my talk page!"
> 1756468742 29703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164134&oldid=164124 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+61) 10
> 1756470417 416248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Assembly 5* 10New user account
> 1756470479 341411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164135&oldid=164130 5* 03Assembly 5* (+189) 10
> 1756470536 129225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ConstantLanguage()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164136&oldid=164028 5* 03Assembly 5* (-3) 10For QACL, i prefer using QuineAvoiding()
< 1756470545 613859 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION → Bathtub 🐬 🐋 😌
< 1756470908 361091 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1756471200 509277 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.195.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1756471589 762472 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1756471677 557697 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756473058 544921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164137&oldid=162246 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+222) 10
> 1756473076 481277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164138&oldid=164137 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+8) 10
< 1756477309 413306 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: The minimum amount of power is smaller for reversible operations; an irreversible operation has to commit some entropy and heat to move forward. Sometimes this is called Landauer's limit or Landauer's principle.
< 1756477336 202109 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not dependent on instruction set, only reversibility, but also it only matters when building computers at the atomic level.
> 1756477998 487021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164139&oldid=160332 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+346) 10/* Physics */
< 1756478083 682816 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1756478409 791341 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756479475 854291 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1756479487 605196 :GregorR!~GregorR@71.19.155.102 JOIN #esolangs GregorR :Gregor Richards
> 1756480547 578764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:V tgbjmehny14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164140&oldid=163985 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+52) 10/* mfsbpltthann */ try adding
to add a newline, please
< 1756480704 769010 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^^ this, plus a few similar edits a couple days ago, makes me think that tgbj is a sock of Warzok. Also, Warzok's specific editing approach, along with Paxton's editing approach and the "project Paxton" section on [[esolang talk:categorization]], make me wonder whether they're part of a larger socking effort.
< 1756480758 16860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But hey, also it could be that I don't understand Discord culture and they're immersed in some collaboration.
> 1756483965 427594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164141&oldid=164106 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+65) 10
< 1756484155 142507 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756484942 682191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:N1014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164142 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+97) 10asked interpreter question
< 1756485767 717389 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1756488497 736311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LISPS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164143&oldid=99450 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+0) 10fixed typo
< 1756491581 150064 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756491621 331761 :dbohdan!~dbohdan@user/dbohdan JOIN #esolangs dbohdan :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1756491768 361587 :Trigon!~Trigon@c-24-11-80-95.hsd1.ut.comcast.net QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756491785 514318 :Trigon!~Trigon@2601:680:cd00:717f::2000 JOIN #esolangs * :https://codetriangle.me
< 1756492089 353303 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1756492376 69030 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1756493728 746479 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1756493797 689185 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1756497812 289967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game:Esochain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164144&oldid=164141 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+56) 10
> 1756499147 523712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07lang without Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164145&oldid=164120 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+53) 10
< 1756499874 362535 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1756499885 500441 :pikhq!sid394595@user/meow/pikhq JOIN #esolangs pikhq :Ada Worcester
> 1756501123 174409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AlephSquirrel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164146&oldid=163796 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (-8) 10Ok it's not that bad
> 1756502022 680838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Snakel14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164147 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+185) 10Created page with "== Gaia Universe == Perhaps there could be a word or two on what the Gaia Universe is, or a link if it's documented elsewhere? Currently there's no context for the language's existence."
> 1756502085 456855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164148&oldid=164147 5* 03AlephSquirrel 5* (+100) 10Forgot to sign
> 1756503506 149627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164149&oldid=164148 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+205) 10
< 1756504549 172931 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6941:8da5:79d5:ac1b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1756505549 778643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 Bits, Tape14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164150 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+909) 10Created page with "3 Bits, Tape is an esolang inspired by the N bits, N bytes family. == Commands == The cells are 6 bits long. 000 NOP does nothing 001 OUT outputs cell at pointer as custom charset 010 x JMP jumps pointer forward by signed x 011 x DEC decrements byte at poin
< 1756508666 628576 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1756509534 171575 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1756509852 162159 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wizards should have printed a counterspell instant with the flavor text being just "No.". It's too late now, both because they stopped printing single-word flavor texts and because there's so many counterspells with a longer text elaborating on that, like https://scryfall.com/card/m10/65/negate https://scryfall.com/card/thb/81/whirlwind-denial https://scryfall.com/card/fdn/48/refute
< 1756509858 168283 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/76/force-spike
< 1756509899 375605 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cards can be reprinted later with a different flavor text sometimes though
< 1756509947 375197 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if they later decide that they will print single-word flavor texts, then they might (although not certain)
< 1756512159 791994 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: sure. some of my favorite flavor texts in my collection are https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/97/seas-claim https://scryfall.com/card/dkm/4/dark-ritual
< 1756512216 938214 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both of these are reprints of older cards with better flavor text
> 1756512997 736005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164151&oldid=164099 5* 03H33T33 5* (-2) 10
< 1756518903 610861 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756519877 693038 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh. Apparently (according to some MtG fan sites) there are exactly fourteen printings that have one-word flavor text. Some cards have had one-word flavor text only in one specific printing! I did not know that this was a thing.
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> 1756534008 34504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164162&oldid=163461 5* 03Ais523 5* (+4166) 10/* Reconnaissance */ observing a cell clear early; decoy count estimation
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< 1756534240 706692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good food for thought. Towards probabalistic jousting.
< 1756534636 564570 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :«Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no.» -- would be a good epigraph for the Complexity Zoo
< 1756534761 604359 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Paraphrasing MBMB&M, "Welcome to the number store! What kind of number can I get you?" "A real number!" "Ehhhh..."
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< 1756543318 402831 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
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< 1756566502 657773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1756578099 206953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: if you like probabilistic BF Joust, https://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.medium is a pretty visualisation of what consequences my decoy count estimation has: depending on the number of decoys the opposing program sets, it has an advantage on some ranges of tape lengths and a disadvantage on others, but the ranges are arranged to try to give a positive record no matter the opponent's decoy count
< 1756578130 636121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only decoy count that beats medium is to set exactly 4 decoys, in which case it loses on just over half the tape lengths
< 1756578157 814790 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :any other value, you have to outrace it, which is very hard when it's skipping most of your decoys (but two_thirds manages it somehow anyway)
< 1756578295 106496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was a tough program to write, losing on almost half the tape lengths when your opponent sets few decoys meant that I had to really work hard on the clear loops in order to avoid random losses on tape lengths it should be winning (this is especially tough against defence programs because you have to avoid being locked and have to avoid being outraced, even with a low probability on specific tape lengths, as you are likely losing most of the short tapes
< 1756578296 678523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and thus have to win almost 100% of the long ones)
< 1756580410 958807 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1756581156 13752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Phidas 5* 10New user account
> 1756581336 287559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164203&oldid=164155 5* 03Phidas 5* (+141) 10Introducing myself
> 1756581932 9955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not-Quite-Laconic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164204&oldid=134932 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3242) 10Somewhat unstub. NQL is more capable than this, but this will suffice to explain what is historically important.
< 1756582422 673716 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 JOIN #esolangs * :based
< 1756582509 15172 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 CHGHOST ~based2997 :user/based299792458
< 1756582651 287526 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: Welcome back! Are you still curious about sea of nodes?
< 1756582662 865225 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i am!
< 1756582692 494827 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Wow, that's really quite the demonstration of amplifying probabilities with multiple trials. Thanks for documenting it.
< 1756582698 691438 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i just finished a simple compiler front end and im getting ready to experiment with it
< 1756582871 100133 :Guest93!~Guest93@2600:100a:b1e5:3b66:b14f:a555:c625:c4e3 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest93
< 1756583010 212138 :Guest93!~Guest93@2600:100a:b1e5:3b66:b14f:a555:c625:c4e3 PRIVMSG #esolangs :o:
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< 1756583033 134191 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun times. What kind of language does your frontend recognize?
< 1756583141 122489 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it generates a lr1 parser from a cfg
< 1756583397 163162 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, it's a generator! Exciting. Are you also thinking about generating a sea-of-nodes type, rather than having a fixed backend?
< 1756583452 826643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that statement makes me realise that "context-free grammar" and "control-flow graph" have the same initialism, which is annoying for two terms which are widely used in the same field (compiler development)
> 1756583576 655786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Laconic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164205&oldid=134931 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1632) 10Capture the essentials of the history. Shamelessly using the same template as [[NQL]] in order to get into a Perlis-rut.
> 1756583587 206554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Drw14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164206 5* 03Phidas 5* (+1337) 10making drw page
< 1756583587 330381 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont have any plans for that yet no. im feeling SON will be enough of a learning curve for now.
< 1756583625 163608 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I think I got it. I *really* don't like reading Friedman. Somebody once describe him as setting up "a candy shop" where we can look through the window at all of the pretty statements, but we're not allowed to actually touch them for ourselves.
< 1756583647 158384 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based299792458: Sure. It might be simpler than you think. Do you already know other styles of backend? Particularly SSA?
< 1756583669 940993 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, this will be my first backendd that isnt very naive.
< 1756583707 331177 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my strategy is to enforce what i need to in syntax like SSA.
> 1756583719 928127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164207&oldid=164158 5* 03Phidas 5* (+10) 10adding drw
< 1756583739 402683 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i dont have to worry about learning too many types of analysis, if that makes sense.
< 1756583755 549631 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. The main idea of SoN is that if a node X depends on a computation from node Y to happen first, then there should be a path from X to Y. That might seem like a very simple way of putting it, but it gets complex as soon as we have stores and loads.
< 1756583769 824662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, that makes sense. SSA in the syntax will help a lot.
< 1756583936 607162 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive been reading click's paper, the "simple graph based IR", is there any other resource u guys would recommend?
< 1756584114 742350 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're okay with videos, look at some of Cliff's recorded talks; he's a great speaker. Also, learning more about SSA will help. It's important to emphasize that SSA is a family of approaches and each different approach is slightly different.
< 1756584143 125139 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most SSA graphs have extra kinds of edges that represent various kinds of dependencies. Cliff's insight was that we can simplify all of that down to one kind of edge.
< 1756584145 463573 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks i appreciate the help
< 1756584170 553531 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive got to go 0/
< 1756584197 808831 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No problem. BTW, the wiki's recently gotten pages like [[metacompiler]] and there is room for documenting parser generators; when you've got more of your system figured out, you're welcome to share and document it.
< 1756584200 621868 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1756584647 446658 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1756585251 771817 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lenses are so good. I wish Boomerang was real.
< 1756585265 169220 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Reading https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~harmony/manual.pdf to try and find more ideas for Zaddy syntax.
< 1756585581 15967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the most frustrating part is that compilation doesn't really need any bidirectional functionality. It's three transformations, each one directed, each one with three sources of flavor (input, output, implementation) that are each different. It's kind of a worst case for any sort of syntax reuse.
< 1756586307 622257 :based299792458!~based2997@user/based299792458 JOIN #esolangs based299792458 :based
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< 1756590456 7408 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
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< 1756592694 755923 :MizMahem!sid296354@user/mizmahem JOIN #esolangs MizMahem :🐍🐔
< 1756593278 991958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I think that the most frustrating part is that compilation doesn't really need any bidirectional functionality. ← I think my opinion here is that lexing and parsing are inherently bidirectional but the other stages of compilation aren't
< 1756593345 875440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :asm-to-IR and IR-to-source are both potentially useful directions to compile in, but not as useful as the usual directions and very hard to implement reasonably
< 1756593374 42607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although asm-to-machine-code is very reversible
< 1756594177 744674 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 JOIN #esolangs * :based
< 1756594177 772677 :based299792458!~based2997@2600:4041:1eb:3800:89c1:78db:e440:3c98 CHGHOST ~based2997 :user/based299792458
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< 1756598694 535425 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix
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> 1756603658 1683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Albuquerque challenge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164208&oldid=153839 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+633) 10
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> 1756608529 972507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164209&oldid=164207 5* 03SzszszszszszszsZ 5* (+2190) 10
< 1756610544 65098 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:bd35:e832:d637:ba5c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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> 1756622504 147689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164210&oldid=164191 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+165) 10/* */
> 1756622720 784430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164211&oldid=164210 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+49) 10/* */
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< 1756627421 679329 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
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< 1756627583 661844 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1756628798 544302 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
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< 1756632282 124928 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :HI
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> 1756635359 7557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03XythicK 5* 10New user account
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< 1756639774 621023 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1756642622 410601 :Everything!~Everythin@217.20.184.199 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1756642664 470092 :Everything!~Everythin@217.20.184.199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi all. I'm looking for some easy PL to design a toy compiler for it. Pure C is too complex. Maybe like AWK. What do you think of? Easier/simpler than Pascal also
< 1756642830 192849 :Everything!~Everythin@217.20.184.199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Something that can compute OEIS entries, like Fib.
< 1756644376 554346 :Everything!~Everythin@217.20.184.199 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1756645034 405921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07While Pointstack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164212 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1313) 10Created page with "'''While Pointstack''' is a variation of [[Pointstack]] accidentaly created by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] while writing a Turing-completeness proof. ==Differences== The only difference between the two is that [...] is a while loop instead of
> 1756645172 518057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointstack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164213&oldid=141299 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-956) 10
> 1756645330 924880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Length14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164214&oldid=160701 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+198) 10/* Computational class */
< 1756645390 671903 :Everything!~Everythin@217.20.184.199 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1756645495 744841 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164215&oldid=163672 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+22) 10/* 2024 */
> 1756645602 357952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164216&oldid=164215 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+55) 10/* Turing-completness Proofs */
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> 1756649911 861786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164217&oldid=163692 5* 03HungKhanh0106 5* (+265) 10/* Batchfile interpreters */ added own interpreter
> 1756650030 749038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Swipe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164218 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1042) 10Created page with "'''Swipe''' is an esolang by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] ==Description== Language has a binary tape infinite to the right. First 4 cells are initialised as 1, others as 0 ===Commands=== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Description |- | ~ || Swaps cu
> 1756650331 598373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Swipe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164219&oldid=164218 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+312) 10
> 1756650402 327471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Swipe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164220&oldid=164219 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+56) 10
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< 1756654786 798083 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose I should flesh out pages like Monkey, Lox, and Tiger to give more options for toy languages that teach compiler theory.
< 1756654964 354667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I hadn't heard of those languages
< 1756655042 21108 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Tiger's the oldest, from the 90s. Lox and Monkey are reboots from 2015 from two different authors.
< 1756655061 322012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They don't have reference implementations. Instead, the student *must* implement their own.
> 1756656538 433760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LPTA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164221 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+3404) 10Created page with "'''Linear Pinball Transition Automata (LPTA)''' is a collision-based esoteric programming language and abstract computational model inspired by the behavior of pinballs moving along a linear track. Its core logic revolves around user-defined "marbles" colliding and tr
> 1756656690 838422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:LPTA14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164222 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+154) 10Created page with " is too unreliable. Anyone can help me sort this page? ~~~~"
> 1756657108 451804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LPTA14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164223&oldid=164221 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+5) 10
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< 1756660544 286801 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1756661939 599793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1756662643 955856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "a counter machine with some reasonable syntax sugar for things like loops" is an interesting source for writing toy compilers, in that a) it's easy to do an unoptimised version (as long as the target language has bignums) and b) you can start optimising it pretty much forever
< 1756662651 846461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you're compiling to asm it doesn't work so well
< 1756662700 566852 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Talking about Tiger or NQL?
< 1756662721 960706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: neither specifically, was thinking generically about interesting languages to write compilers for
< 1756662745 924113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to write an optimiser for Minsky machines ages ago, but got somewhat lost along the way, my IR became less and less well-specified as time went on until I was no longer sure what I was doing
< 1756662761 894391 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, sure. Yeah, bignums are a fairly friendly domain to target.
< 1756662958 851357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after a while they often end up being optimised into lists of digits anyway, where the lists are operated on like lists rather than like numbers
< 1756663036 668483 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1756663376 147073 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. In Cammy, I have a library-level isomorphism between N and [2], along with useful arithmetic on [2]. I wanted to somehow push that iso down into the compiler, but I haven't figured out how it should be done.
< 1756664151 18027 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
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< 1756665066 120729 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix
< 1756666065 198069 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
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> 1756675771 975012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164224&oldid=164062 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-103) 10
> 1756676371 834982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/archive14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164225 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+12322) 10Created page with "== I'm born in 2010! Earlier. == I'm born in 2010! Earlier! You are born in 2012. [[User:MihaiEso|MihaiEso]] ([[User talk:MihaiEso|talk]]) 12:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC) == I have the same born year with you. == 2012 --[[User:PrySigneT
> 1756676578 84053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164226&oldid=164059 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-10337) 10
> 1756677409 23285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/ascii golfing14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=164227 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1291) 10Created page with "ascii golfing is an esolang construction project where [[user:tommyaweosme|tommyaweosme]] will try and make the shortest programs with ASCII. == commands == " string mode toggle # num mode toggle q list m
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> 1756681790 200826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XSVL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164228&oldid=144240 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Rectified the Hello, World! program, which would not print the comma (,) because of a cell being multiplied while yet remaining in its inchoate zero-valued state.
> 1756681924 775176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XSVL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164229&oldid=164228 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+158) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the XSVL programming language on GitHub and marked the extant implementation's provenance as absent.
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> 1756682352 450787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=164230&oldid=164224 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+83) 10PLASY MY GAMEE
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