< 1754006651 231619 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754006928 928164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162595&oldid=162501 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+82) 10/* Programs */
> 1754007201 826842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162596&oldid=162582 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+20) 10
> 1754007501 737217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162597 5* 03PJ11 5* (+532) 10Created page with "[[Flash shockwave has been discontinued.]] is a joke esoteric programming language which is very gibberish and pretty much uninterpretable. ==[[Hello World]]== aueI90dsm%#oiDijij@!&#&#IO21(()=D@@
==[[Nope.]] interpreter==
> 1754007529 130272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162598&oldid=162597 5* 03PJ11 5* (+23) 10
> 1754007607 250365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162599&oldid=162591 5* 03PJ11 5* (+47) 10
> 1754007882 451621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162600&oldid=162598 5* 03PJ11 5* (+196) 10
> 1754008166 150502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162601&oldid=161583 5* 03PJ11 5* (+216) 10
> 1754008233 310585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162602&oldid=162601 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2) 10
< 1754009423 174855 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754009661 504000 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754009887 565199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162603&oldid=158688 5* 03Dnm 5* (+403) 10Added Deadfish in SNOBOL
< 1754011076 714183 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754011103 480761 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754014913 56208 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
> 1754015446 438215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162604&oldid=162518 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+45) 10/* T */
> 1754015494 927421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162605&oldid=162604 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10/* T */
< 1754016240 206533 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1754016435 709183 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754016450 366616 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :so uhm
< 1754016487 967727 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had to reconnect
< 1754016507 844648 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome back.
< 1754016572 335631 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1754016624 470746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi! How are you? I'm about to take off for dinner, but I have a few minutes if you have questions; most other folks are asleep right now.
< 1754016664 354294 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im fine
> 1754018085 449459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Boringscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162606 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+121) 10Created page with "Was looking for my esolang boring chef and this came up. Funny idea for an esolang, though as stated, completely useless."
> 1754018116 990990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Boringscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162607&oldid=162606 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+26) 10
< 1754021487 582449 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754021662 536211 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754023709 374478 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im going to schole
> 1754024833 397254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162608 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+566) 10Created page with "GIMME CODE is a programming language where typing stuff in code has no effect All code in GIMME CODE is comments, GIMME CODE will always ask the user for a command, when they the command it will be executed, then a tape (the state space) will be printe
> 1754024893 805982 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162609&oldid=162608 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+59) 10
> 1754024918 386218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162610&oldid=162609 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+4) 10
> 1754024961 352721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162611&oldid=162496 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+18) 10
< 1754025007 153130 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1754025083 247341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162612&oldid=162610 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+29) 10
> 1754025149 368975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GIMME CODE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162613&oldid=162612 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+47) 10
> 1754028513 543969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162614&oldid=162595 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+168) 10
> 1754028583 362611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162615&oldid=162545 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+186) 10
> 1754028627 753942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162616&oldid=162614 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+23) 10
< 1754031366 973435 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754031549 504651 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754036024 963015 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754038073 328275 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754039362 81015 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754040325 874652 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754040870 444096 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1754041201 71578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BAL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162617&oldid=151341 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-28) 10/* Commands */
> 1754041747 279735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162618&oldid=161754 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+29) 10
< 1754042101 950202 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :*.net *.split
> 1754042152 736617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FAGI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162619&oldid=162546 5* 03Lucaz37 5* (-89) 10
< 1754042420 27322 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@103.121.100.100 JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1754042503 909096 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@103.121.100.100 CHGHOST ~f4fruits :user/fruits4fruits
< 1754042647 557989 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im back
< 1754045004 518861 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1754045356 762311 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754047179 884985 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754047199 984720 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754047812 579839 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754048474 933415 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754051021 843634 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.127.253 QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754051058 832799 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754053348 931652 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1754053501 117340 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754054110 538796 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754055066 949601 :visilii!~visilii@213.24.127.253 JOIN #esolangs * :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754056950 925120 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754057290 325847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/test14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162620&oldid=160858 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+486) 10
< 1754057458 448521 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754057508 459150 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754057695 842906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162621&oldid=160737 5* 03PJ11 5* (+123) 10/* Implementations */
> 1754058409 962050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162622&oldid=158905 5* 03PJ11 5* (+58) 10/* General languages */
> 1754058503 908266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/collapsible 214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162623 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+1210) 10.
< 1754059306 216583 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754059724 935285 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754061054 118557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162624&oldid=162615 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10/* Teleporto */
< 1754061657 62281 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754061698 170091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162625 5* 03A() 5* (+1476) 10Created page with "Wiredwalls is an esolang made by [[user:A()]]. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Instruction |- | * || Turns wire on |- | i || Input |- | - || Wire |- | | || Wire |- | ^ || Branch up |- | v || Branch down |- | > || Branch Right |- | < || Branc
< 1754063164 652411 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b928:de3f:1dfd:983a JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754064527 238144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Jsharp.png10]]"
> 1754065211 269649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162627&oldid=162625 5* 03A() 5* (-3) 10/* Full adder */
> 1754065318 574780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162628 5* 03PJ11 5* (+876) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=VBasicDellExp J#}} '''VBasicDellExp J#''', also known as '''J#''',is an esolang created by [[User:PJ11]]. This is its logo. [[File:Jsharp.png|thumb|alt=@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|JSharp logo]] ==Examples== ===[[Hello, world!]]=== base J# {
> 1754065351 416271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162629 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065377 272829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162630 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065399 280388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162631 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065445 334544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162632&oldid=162599 5* 03PJ11 5* (+29) 10
> 1754065473 997964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162633&oldid=162628 5* 03PJ11 5* (+41) 10
> 1754065521 237842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp JSharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162634 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065534 131629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162635 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065577 969681 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162636 5* 03PJ11 5* (+105) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065594 610398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162637 5* 03PJ11 5* (+105) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065634 128553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162638 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065648 944942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasic DellExp J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162639 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
> 1754065662 680772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07J-Sharp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162640 5* 03PJ11 5* (+34) 10Redirected page to [[VBasicDellExp JSharp]]
< 1754065794 252855 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Trying to figure out if that many redirects is a case of failed branding or oversized ego.
> 1754066715 396103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (D-G)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162641&oldid=158243 5* 03PJ11 5* (+111) 10/* Flash shockwave has been discontinued. */
> 1754066821 859112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162642&oldid=160707 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+78) 10/* Hello, world! in Boring Chef (no proper indentation) */
> 1754067117 294074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162643&oldid=162633 5* 03PJ11 5* (+194) 10
> 1754067138 385064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162644&oldid=162643 5* 03PJ11 5* (+0) 10
> 1754067293 66483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VBasicDellExp JSharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162645&oldid=162644 5* 03PJ11 5* (+3) 10/* 99 bottles of beer */
> 1754067399 658899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07K014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162646&oldid=162589 5* 03PJ11 5* (-10) 10
> 1754068320 803299 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Font color14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162647 5* 03PJ11 5* (+1449) 10Created page with "{{ safesubst:#if: {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} | {{ safesubst:#if: {{{link|}}} | {{ safesubst:#ifeq: {{{link|}}} | yes | [[ {{ safesubst:#if:trim | {{{text|{{{3|}}}}}} }}| 1754068529 861544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ1114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162649&oldid=162632 5* 03PJ11 5* (+136) 10
< 1754069122 566555 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754070506 661791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162650&oldid=162642 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (+1063) 10/* Operations */
> 1754070598 60319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162651&oldid=162650 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (-28) 10/* Hello, world! in Boring Chef */
> 1754070671 612726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boring Chef14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162652&oldid=162651 5* 03GluonVelvet 5* (-3) 10
> 1754072014 405033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:Font color14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162653&oldid=162648 5* 03Corbin 5* (+474) 10Thanks for being honest.
> 1754074710 372393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162654&oldid=162551 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+212) 10
> 1754074723 465630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162655 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+1056) 10Created page with "=='''subleq_extra'''== '''subleq_extra''' is an esolang based on [[subleq]]. it has, next to subleq, 5 extra instructions to make it more useable (hence the name extra). the instructions are the following: == instructions == * '''SUBLEQ a, b, c''' - Subtrac
> 1754074882 516520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162656&oldid=162655 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+87) 10/* */
> 1754074905 717218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162657&oldid=162656 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (-23) 10/* subleq_extra */
> 1754075604 804056 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Bulletin Board14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162658&oldid=162585 5* 03Ais523 5* (+533) 10my thoughts
> 1754075642 85613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02User:DigitalDetective47/WIP10]]": Author request: userspace sandbox page that the user no longer needs
> 1754076605 457364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162659&oldid=162596 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+137) 10
< 1754077775 235539 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754077863 571158 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754078304 748035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162660&oldid=162659 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10
> 1754078657 455243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162661&oldid=162660 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+138) 10
> 1754083230 467692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162662 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2905) 10Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: |Hello World|
Implementation (made by A
> 1754083301 813317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuij14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162663 5* 03PJ11 5* (+2946) 10Created page with "Yuij is an esolang which uses few characters. + increases the amount of the current unit by 1. - decreases the amount of the current unit by 1. | prints everything after it till there is another |. Hello World: |Hello World|
Implementation (made by AI, cuz i don'
> 1754083328 274459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162664&oldid=162662 5* 03PJ11 5* (-2873) 10Replaced content with "Will move to [[User:PJ11/Indev]]"
> 1754083366 9798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10moved [[02User:PJ11/sandbox10]] to [[User:PJ11/InDev]]: Wanna change sandbox to indev page for long esolangs
> 1754083406 304525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PJ11/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162667&oldid=162665 5* 03PJ11 5* (+35) 10
> 1754083574 369233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wiredwalls14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162668&oldid=162627 5* 03A() 5* (+267) 10
< 1754084168 550936 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754084674 17624 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754085367 412912 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754085530 468001 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754085749 75573 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1754085764 672914 :nitrix_!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754086210 593613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162669 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+26) 10Created page with "Why is this on featured???"
> 1754086354 409904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[075214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162670 5* 03A() 5* (+1061) 10Created page with "52 is very bad. Made by [[user:A()]]. It takes place on a 20 by 30 board ==Commands== # 2222 - ! - negate cell # 2522 - ( - start if cell is 1 do: # 5222 - ) - end # 2252 - > - move left (no, i did not make a mistake) # 5252 - < - move right (no, i did not make a mistake)
> 1754086516 494896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162671&oldid=162661 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-29) 10
> 1754086626 881586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162672&oldid=162671 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+29) 10
< 1754086825 528896 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5467:d1dd:5390:f8b9 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754087088 760328 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754087962 747679 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest76
< 1754088007 335616 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to go User:[myusernamehere]/Sandbox but it doesn't let me edit it
< 1754088033 550862 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Where should I draft instead?
< 1754088073 468746 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nvm i just wasn't logged in
< 1754088079 791892 :Guest58!~Guest76@91-158-255-6.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Client Quit
> 1754088164 522358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162673 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1551) 10Created page with "Duchathair each function is binary (2-ary), except + syntax no brackets, because arity is constant. like polish notation how to define a function example $ sum y sum x y defining a function like example allows you to use @example too. its a certa
< 1754088396 609771 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754088449 466952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162674 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+56) 10Created page with "Disfunction is a esolang that works using only functions"
< 1754088477 113017 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754088496 234927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162675&oldid=162674 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+11) 10
< 1754089538 587407 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754089553 518565 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1754089574 560130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162676&oldid=162675 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+806) 10
> 1754090092 441263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create210 02 5* 03PJ11 5* 10created new account User:WarzokERNST135: I want an alternative account cause of the cooler name
> 1754090242 238128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162677&oldid=162654 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+189) 10Introducing myself, so I can edit other pages without warns
> 1754090330 722606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162678&oldid=162677 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+17) 10
< 1754090893 568916 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754090913 760117 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754092291 11955 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754092766 571160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Declarative paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162679&oldid=39796 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1400) 10Integrate Neel's concept of declarative programming, which is IME the only one that doesn't invite bikeshedding.
> 1754094533 488858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162680&oldid=160443 5* 03Corbin 5* (+73) 10Organize the DSLs.
> 1754095844 69626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162681&oldid=162680 5* 03Corbin 5* (+696) 10Write out a more detailed history and add references. Imagine my bad George Lucas impression here: "Y'know, history, it, uh, it rhymes."
> 1754096294 262062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162682 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+20) 10Created page with "My esolangs: [[r0q]]"
> 1754096336 230635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WarzokERNST13514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162683 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+33) 10Redirected page to [[User:WarzokERNST135]]
> 1754096409 117980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162684 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+129) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}}{{WIP}} [[r0q]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]].
A list of commands can be seen at [[r0q/Commands]]."
> 1754096846 48522 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162685 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+430) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} Commands:
Ask (x)'s value and get (y): This is like set (x) = (y)
Define a function called (x) with parameters [params] {} This is like func (x)([params){}
Ask user's input and give it to (x): This ge
> 1754096861 619840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162686&oldid=162685 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10
< 1754096951 555066 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754097169 349428 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1754097567 419592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162687&oldid=93571 5* 03Corbin 5* (+161) 10Infobox and categories.
< 1754097650 8664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll be back for more later, but I need dinner first.
< 1754097802 125151 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754098028 610223 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754099553 638843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162688&oldid=161350 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-83) 10''=''
> 1754099619 107322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162689&oldid=162688 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (+83) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/162688|162688]] by [[Special:Contributions/EiroWarn|EiroWarn]] ([[User talk:EiroWarn|talk]])
> 1754099667 444483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162690&oldid=162689 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-83) 10Completely eliminated ambiguity regarding the ''='' symbol
< 1754099850 26220 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina JOIN #esolangs Lykaina :Lykaina
> 1754100537 607559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162691&oldid=43222 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (+235) 10nothing
< 1754100798 431077 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754101050 992129 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754101331 951313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162692&oldid=162676 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+427) 10
> 1754101382 353288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162693&oldid=162692 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+15) 10
> 1754101488 880161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162694&oldid=162693 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+132) 10
> 1754101507 468360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162695&oldid=162694 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+14) 10
> 1754101559 290621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162696&oldid=162695 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+42) 10
> 1754101722 589400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162697&oldid=162696 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+110) 10
> 1754101822 614305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162698&oldid=162697 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+93) 10
> 1754101860 557688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162699&oldid=162611 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+16) 10
> 1754101869 118015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162700&oldid=162699 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
> 1754101938 115823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Telifuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162701&oldid=162672 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+47) 10/* Programs */ Minor fixes
> 1754102032 158830 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162702&oldid=162698 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+24) 10
> 1754103469 115783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DNA-Sharp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162703&oldid=162690 5* 03EiroWarn 5* (-5) 10Changed the page sorting and added a new interpreter (developed by me)
< 1754103768 456830 :Lykaina!~lykaina@user/lykaina QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1754108812 156516 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nevermind. Maybe I'll do more tomorrow.
< 1754109510 297591 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754109670 935185 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754110240 759036 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754111637 900300 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754112400 159777 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754114228 20634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162704&oldid=162669 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+50) 10
> 1754114337 154497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162705&oldid=162704 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+162) 10
> 1754115300 639354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme/Brainfuck but its tilted a bit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162706&oldid=162705 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+31) 10
< 1754120225 734891 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754122045 470071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162707&oldid=162286 5* 03PKMN Trainer 5* (-19) 10
> 1754123995 982363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162708&oldid=161222 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+14) 10
> 1754124047 611088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162709&oldid=162708 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+0) 10
> 1754124161 781660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162710&oldid=162709 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-3) 10
> 1754124244 923710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162711 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+28) 10Created page with "'''Zowm''' is an [[esolang]]"
< 1754124334 645944 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754124418 143325 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754124548 568710 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754124719 993416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162712 5* 03AclausckintheMidLife 5* (+44) 10Created page with "what am i supposed to create in this esolang"
< 1754124733 609335 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :me btw
< 1754125275 24560 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and i created this esolang https://esolangs.org/wiki/Everything_is_h (is the link linking properly)
< 1754125695 280034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the link looks fine (IRC is plain text; IRC clients often use patterns to figure out what links are and make them clickable. The only trick I associate with that is not putting punctuation right after a link. Even if you do, people will figure it out. :P)
< 1754125811 557242 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok
< 1754126264 161354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's actually kind of unclear what the semantics are. What's a condition? If it's only `true` or `false` then the language will become rather boring, semantics wise.
< 1754126388 751640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Also, "self-explanatory" -- it isn't because it's unclear that those aren't actually operations, but a mix of tokens and individual characters. The little code generator at the end makes this intent clearer.
< 1754126442 513217 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1754126445 398306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Can you print a " character? Are there variables?
< 1754126462 424156 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :wellllll uhhhhh
< 1754126503 190264 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :there isnt a way to declare (or call) variables (yet)
< 1754126514 489326 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, you don't have to answer those questions. But we tend to look for semantics more than syntax so they come up quite naturally.
< 1754126522 576487 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1754126562 869310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, "what can this do" rather than "how hard is it to read the source code"
< 1754126611 189413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Even at the syntax level... are you allowed to use `p r i n t` as a long form of `print`?
< 1754126618 967895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll leave it at that :)
< 1754126700 81757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did decode the `print(source)` and the `while true do print("") end`)
< 1754128508 504681 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1754128533 148098 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i dont think `p r i n t` can be used as a long form of `print`
< 1754128535 359578 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1754132886 789740 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754133658 965833 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754133702 999560 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754133719 571419 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754134949 261205 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754135407 742423 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning.
< 1754136498 811736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Where are you headed? I only ask in order to understand.
> 1754136831 408182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Functional paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162713&oldid=7890 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1793) 10Write a fun little blurb covering the history. I used Backus' perspective as it is the motive for modern language design; those of us younger than Miranda were raised wholly on this paper.
< 1754136848 181143 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, should clean up that page on tacit programming too.
< 1754136864 562255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Wait, am I younger than Miranda? I know I'm older than Haskell.
< 1754137153 596554 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754137986 123519 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754138535 456366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162714&oldid=162702 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+29) 10polishing up
> 1754138638 795090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162715&oldid=138273 5* 03Corbin 5* (+324) 10More-or-less rewrite. I saved as much as I could, including bluelinks.
> 1754138741 11863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162716&oldid=162382 5* 03Corbin 5* (+28) 10/* APL */ We have a main article on the topic.
> 1754138777 383872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162717&oldid=160752 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+28) 10
> 1754138860 192465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Total14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162718&oldid=160889 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2) 10Fix heading to be consistent with other category pages.
< 1754139167 728314 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754139551 110497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07APL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162719&oldid=154288 5* 03Corbin 5* (+605) 10Infobox, bluelinks, references.
< 1754139602 149129 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Really not a fan of the whole "non-esoteric" phrasing. As long as English WP is deletionist, it *doesn't matter* whether a language is "esoteric" enough for the wiki.
> 1754140192 390603 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Timeline of esoteric programming languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162720&oldid=162187 5* 03Corbin 5* (+348) 10Add APL. Trying to keep it dry. Also, awawa?
< 1754140225 898795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I genuinely believe that this page *can* be gut-bustingly funny. It's pretty good already.
> 1754140898 204850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162721&oldid=162543 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+99) 10Small corecrtion to the swapping algorithm
< 1754141128 897767 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754141130 502919 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754142323 95424 :amadaluzia_!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754143003 90226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162722&oldid=162687 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2239) 10Words, references, example.
> 1754143406 589093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162723&oldid=162711 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+129) 10
> 1754143443 18831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162724&oldid=162723 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+16) 10
> 1754143508 273348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162725&oldid=162724 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+24) 10
< 1754143805 206619 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754143974 72688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162726&oldid=162722 5* 03Corbin 5* (+479) 10/* Example */ Copy another example from [[when statement]] and make the formatting match.
> 1754144175 321769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162727&oldid=162712 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+145) 10
> 1754144637 487010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162728&oldid=162725 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+185) 10
> 1754144741 581018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162729&oldid=162727 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+104) 10
> 1754144789 640503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162730 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+620) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} [[pigs]] is an esolang created by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==Commands== p: Adds 10 to the current unit.
i: Subtracts 1 from the current unit.
g: Creates an unit and moves to it.
s: Turns the cur
> 1754145348 112339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162731&oldid=162730 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (-20) 10Fixed error
> 1754145443 913388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162732&oldid=158873 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+236) 10/* pigs */
> 1754145587 372967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:EsolangAbandoned14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162733 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+87) 10Created page with "''This esolang has been abandoned by its owner, and it won't be changed by its owner.''"
> 1754145611 107526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162734&oldid=162684 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+13) 10
> 1754145666 948465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:EsolangAbandoned14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162735&oldid=162733 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+16) 10
> 1754145695 75560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162736&oldid=162734 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+83) 10
> 1754145718 112633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R0q/Commands14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162737&oldid=162686 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+96) 10
> 1754145750 207164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162738&oldid=162682 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+29) 10
> 1754145823 52441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162739&oldid=162714 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+123) 10
> 1754145841 574779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disfunction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162740&oldid=162739 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+3) 10
> 1754145928 904501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162741&oldid=162731 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+31) 10
> 1754145948 337881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PIGS14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162742&oldid=95336 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+31) 10
> 1754146210 884679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162743&oldid=162741 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+191) 10
> 1754146268 374911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162744&oldid=162743 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+43) 10Added categories
> 1754146466 504281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162745&oldid=162605 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+83) 10/* P */ Added pigs
> 1754147318 444458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162746&oldid=162744 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
< 1754148679 626227 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754149092 73789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162747 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+666) 10Made the sequel to pigs
> 1754149156 590428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162748&oldid=162747 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+10) 10
> 1754149276 841993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pigs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162749&oldid=162746 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+18) 10
> 1754149299 129059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162750&oldid=162748 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+18) 10
> 1754150947 709161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shockwave flash14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162751 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+940) 10Created page with "[[Shockwave flash]] is an [[esolang]] created by '''[[WarzokERNST135]]'''. ==Commands==
\: Escape character for putting double quotes on strings and other characters.
{{cd|kcauq}}: Ends the program.
{{cd|caukq}}: Starts a loop, until the pointer's value reaches 0.
{{cd|kaucq}}: Ends a loop.
{{cd|cuaqk}}:
< 1754228764 803767 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754228765 633017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162801&oldid=162784 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+14) 10
> 1754228800 313626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162802&oldid=161372 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+297) 10
> 1754228871 569146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Titin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162803&oldid=150056 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+9) 10
> 1754229269 869208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162804 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+300) 10Hydrogen monoxide
> 1754229411 202962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/Hydrogen monoxide/Cube14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162805 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+168) 10Created page with "How did you get here? ==3== Code some more if (you found this through the recent changes){ say "ok that's normal" } else { say "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" } "
> 1754229568 709550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST135/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162806 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+80) 10Redirected page to [[User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page]]
> 1754229740 320168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162807&oldid=162802 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+165) 10/* Commands */
< 1754229762 9640 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1754229838 966033 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1754230017 438704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/nil14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162808 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+315) 10Created page with "[[User:/nil]] is one of the weirdest esolangs in the world. ==Commands== {{cd|null}}: Breaks the pointer and crashes the Moon onto the Earth. {{cd|User:WarzokERNST135}}: Creates a black hole and eats the next bits of code. ==Contribute?== You can contribute t
> 1754230130 85288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/nil14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162809 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+235) 10Created page with "[[User talk:/nil]] is as weird as [[User:/nil]] but it also allows you to create MORE programming languages using this prefix: '''User talk:/nil/(PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE HERE)''' Also this esolang also has the commands of [[User:/nil]]."
> 1754230808 996808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:FontColor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162810 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+146) 10I made this by hand.
> 1754230853 602347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:FontColor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162811 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+106) 10Created page with "If you say I took this from Wikipedia, compare it to Wikipedia's version. It's different from this version"
< 1754231824 415780 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754231914 935445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162812&oldid=162728 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+72) 10
> 1754231963 854368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162813&oldid=162795 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+1260) 10
> 1754232467 500916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zowm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162814&oldid=162812 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+57) 10
> 1754233280 922126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162815&oldid=162787 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+746) 10/* Syntax */
< 1754233362 18525 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
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> 1754235287 387565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162816&oldid=161107 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+840) 10
> 1754238789 442716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162817&oldid=162778 5* 03Corbin 5* (-22) 10This is an output-only language, so not TC; fixing categories. A [[trivial brainfuck substitution]] would go in the other direction to inherit BF's TC-ness.
> 1754238830 780596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162818&oldid=162799 5* 03Corbin 5* (-42) 10/* Survey */ Remove non-TC language.
< 1754239091 806981 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
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< 1754241119 147602 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754241318 135771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162819&oldid=160560 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+158) 10/* Programs/Fire */ Replace IPFS links (all dead) with github links
< 1754241359 758246 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754242084 500000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162820&oldid=162657 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (-87) 10removed nonexistant cagetories i added without knowing they dont exist
< 1754242112 343740 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754242145 986863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subleq extra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162821&oldid=162820 5* 03Ilikeundertale 5* (+0) 10
> 1754244345 60728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162822&oldid=162818 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2392) 10Start structuring the list to reduce vanity tagging. Combinators are an easy first target.
< 1754244359 80158 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I need to actually compute Iota's rank now.
< 1754245472 901556 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754247052 707628 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iota14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162823&oldid=159787 5* 03Corbin 5* (+634) 10/* Semantics */ Hack out a justifiable single-combinator basis; unify grammar somewhat.
< 1754247283 648774 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1c21:f6c3:9146:cddf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754247745 426009 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I can do a bit better. iota of K is precisely S, so ι K x y z = S x y z ought to require rank four. Just gotta hack out the proof tree.
< 1754250010 5774 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, there might be a problem. ι is defined as ι f = f S K. But if S and K are trees made entirely of ι then they don't reduce away. So I'm suddenly very concerned that ι is not actually complete, in the sense that it might not admit the same reduction rules as SK.
< 1754250043 586161 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...And this affects Fokker's basis too. This is not good. Hopefully I've just misunderstood horribly and everything will make sense after lunch.
< 1754250190 305489 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Barker's definition of Iota seems to require the intermediate reductions to S and K. I'm checking whether an intermediate reduction to I would suffice. Either way, I think that this entire line of historical reasoning might need a re-examination.
< 1754250611 697466 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...No, it looks like both S and K are required. I'm going to hope that somebody can tell me what I'm doing wrong, and in the meantime, lunch.
> 1754252668 378585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(piggus)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162824&oldid=162817 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+98) 10/* Turing completeness proof */
< 1754253017 210919 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :realname
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> 1754253866 53630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162825 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+140) 10Created page with "[[]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. ==[[XKCD Random Number]]== 4. ==[[Hello World]]== "Hello World". ==[[Cat program]]== i."
> 1754253895 913050 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162826&oldid=162825 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+23) 10
> 1754253997 654016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162827&oldid=162801 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+12) 10
< 1754254648 436689 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
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> 1754256172 461788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162828&oldid=150789 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Syntax */ "do" now requires two arguments
> 1754256210 37696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162829&oldid=162828 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-8) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1754258412 614879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162830&oldid=162815 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+331) 10/* Calling functions */
< 1754259215 843178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754259247 344479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so a while ago, I was implementing SK combinator calculus, except I was implementing it in continuation-passing style
< 1754259270 42792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and something similar happened: I seemed to need an extra temporary combinator, I couldn't use just S and K (and S1, S2, K1) in the internals
< 1754259365 355243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eventually I traced that back to S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments, whereas continuation-passing-style forces an explicit evaluation order: S a b c is (a c) (b c) which, if you're compiling to a VM with an explicit evaluation order, requires you to evaluate one of (a c) or (b c) before the other, and then you need a temporary to represent the *unevaluated* (a c) or (b c) while the other is being evaluated
< 1754259385 217175 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if you've observed the same basic phenomenon with iota, just with some other virtual machine property
< 1754259439 255085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(context for people who haven't seen the notation before: S1, S2, K1 are the names for combinators that apply S or K to insufficiently many arguments, so that they can't be evaluated further without more arguments appearing)
< 1754259465 242591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. the normal form of S S K is (S2 S K) which is a single combinator, you can think of it as a struct with S in the first field and K in the second
< 1754259536 152782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(correction: I said "S not specifying the evaluation order of its arguments" but I meant the partially-applied applications inside it, not the argumetns)
< 1754259641 855007 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try not to say things I don't mean, but sometimes it happens by mistake :-(
< 1754259657 759941 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
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< 1754262411 66071 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, interesting. That could be related.
< 1754262499 768496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As I was explaining this to a friend over lunch, I realized that when we build applicative trees, we also introduce an intermediate pseudo-combinator, usually called @, with a rule like @ x y = x y, which reifies application.
< 1754262548 499513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Ugh, bad sentence structure, sorry.) An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit.
< 1754262965 733962 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that the S1, S2, K1 conventions are definitely part of what's going on. We're so used to lambda terms having an equivalence with combinators, but we've not taken care to think about how combinators must encode the reduction rules of LC.
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< 1754263295 996863 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, I think I've got a sketch of a proof. Let I, S, and K be represented by some trees only built with ι. Let ι f x… = f S K x…, with arbitrary extent. Then any "reduction" of ι is going to produce a bigger tree of ι. There's no eliminator.
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< 1754263346 848725 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Hi! We're doing some maths. Don't worry about it. How are you?
< 1754263355 228836 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :im good
< 1754263464 914983 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: But anyway, now I'm kind of on the other side of the looking glass and I'm thinking of going back and re-reading Fokker's paper as well as Barendregt's notes. At some point we started writing down expressions that aren't obviously combinators, and we didn't catch it because we figured that the failure of simple typing was the only relevant warning.
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< 1754266532 260834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: now I'm wondering what the smallest basis of combinators is if you include the intermediates needed to evaluate it
< 1754266543 410926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it might not be a well-defined problem because combinators like K1 are parameterised
< 1754266726 540130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and that, separately, got me thinking about minimizations of Underload – in combinator calculus K is the only way to get rid of information (just like S is the only way to copy it), and in Underload ! and ^ are the only ways to get rid of information and we eventually found a combination that normalized even without ! (but it implemented a counter machine, not lambda calculus)
< 1754266905 143116 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general we would expect to have both an information-duplicating and information-destroying combinator in a combinator basis – but maybe they could be the same combinator, or maybe destroying information isn't actually necessary (it isn't for TCness, at least, but that might not be the only desirable property)
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< 1754266973 466171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the standard Underload two-combinator basis is ^ and (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!), which doesn't fit the duplicate/destroy pattern very neatly
< 1754267034 298004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's important that (~), a quoted swap, be at the start, and (!!!!!!), a quoted pop-six-elements, be at the end, the order of the others doesn't matter
< 1754267361 867863 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea is that if you do the push-everything combinator and then the eval, it pops everything it pushes and the element below, emulating a pop – then you can use a push-everything followed by five pops to get at the swap combinator, and eval that – and that gives you pop, swap, eval, and a command to push all the combinators you might need, so you can just pop and swap/pop the combinators down to the one you need and then eval it)
< 1754267414 197416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : An applicative tree has some maintenance associated with it, and we don't always reify that maintenance. Combinatory logic makes the assumption that application will be managed for us but everything else must be explicit. ← I agree with this, I think it's a good summary of what's causing the problem
< 1754267595 138199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, one interesting thing I learned from that project is that BCKW combinator calculus can be evaluated using a virtual machine that tracks three *normalized* combinator expressions x, y, z and evaluates z(x(y)) – each step in the evaluation can be done by converting a triple (x, y, z) to a triple (x', y', z') that represents the state after one step of evaluation – although it had more intermediate combinators than just B, C, K and W
< 1754267656 38098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was interesting that the evaluation doesn't ever introduce more than two points where you have an application rather than a normalized combinator
< 1754267673 239598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can't do that with SK, because S increases the number of points at which an application occurs)
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< 1754270839 723770 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Hm, good food for thought, thanks.
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< 1754273065 333823 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Okay, after thinking a bit, I have two thoughts. Second, I think that Underload has a lot in common with Kerby's combinators when pushed through Kerby's `i` (which isn't the same as Schoenfinkel/Curry's I), see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Cammy/Bikeshed#Kerby's_Category
< 1754273155 715666 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :First, I think that we can directly consider a fragment of Underload as analogous to combinators which are overapplied; the extra parameters form the stack. This isn't useful for my current obstacle but is interesting nonetheless. For example, we have ~ x y ... = y x ...
< 1754273203 527660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I noticed that but in the opposite direction – I was considering an implementation of Underload in combinator calculus that uses overapplied combinators as the stack
< 1754273266 993171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some very esoteric downsides (e.g. you need something like call/cc to interact with the world outside the stack unless you want to consume the whole thing) but I think it's workaroundable
< 1754273335 157793 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, I don't have a complete plan, but I noticed that Fokker size seems to interact with rank. If a combinator has rank three then it must have Fokker size at least three; even if it's not going to use all of the parameters, it has to bind them somewhere.
< 1754273380 223279 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We might be able to tighten the bound on the overall size of a complete combinator basis by laying down some minimum requirements. I don't know if that could be used to critique or exclude Iota though.
< 1754273423 827873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's arguable that the goal of Iota was to create a single-combinator basis for expressing functions (as opposed to a single-combinator base for evaluating them)
< 1754273430 198170 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe I should actually dig into Barendregt's paper first. I still don't believe that I'm the first with this issue.
< 1754273451 131777 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, and maybe the correct nuance is that Iota has non-trivial or non-deterministic reduction rules.
< 1754273458 817033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1754273477 958034 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can certainly construct a set of rules that work with just apply and iota, via recognising the patterns of iota that mean S and K and reducing them all at once
< 1754273532 809323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it seems somewhat inelegant
< 1754273596 824356 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it would be required if we could only express binary trees, since S has rank three. Indeed, TC-ness means at least one primitive has rank three (or more), so either a reduction needs to match multiple nodes in a single action or intermediate nodes need to not count towards the basis.
< 1754273628 150080 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hadn't heard of the "you need rank 3 to be TC" before
< 1754273707 184598 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It was shown in 1988 by Legrand. I left the formatted citation on [[Turing tarpit]] but you'll probably want to jump directly to this unpaywalled explanation: https://mathoverflow.net/q/415373
> 1754273715 681030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162831&oldid=162594 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-224) 10
< 1754273766 406798 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In terms of stack languages, Legrand showed that `rot` for three stack elements can't be built from anything that only reaches two deep.
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< 1754273986 658466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's interesting that that pattern doesn't apply to Underload, which can reach deeply via quoting the stack into a program and then evaluating that program to put the stack elements back in a different order
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< 1754274189 615462 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I think it's the quotations. Forth also can cheat by using the second stack. Combinators correspond to a sort of no-cheating barebones case.
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< 1754275094 862560 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I feel like the three deep thing must be in the bird book somewhere, but I can't find it right now
< 1754275630 881008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so Underload * conceptually takes two individual stack elements, + the rest of the stack, that's 3 arguments
< 1754275664 69722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and quotations conceptually contain a * even if they were written out as literals rather than constructed using a *
< 1754275787 461789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also found the lambda-term equivalent: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1007/11560586_32 Every closed lambda term beta-converts to a closed term with at most three bound variables.
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< 1754331428 309746 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e, tromp: My thoughts are crystallizing. I think that we need some sort of nomenclature update. Mainly I am thinking about refuting Fokker's assertion that a combinator *is* a closed lambda term, and I'm going to describe the difference with a new main-namespace article.
< 1754331601 815782 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well, to maybe help a little bit: SK-calculus is a first-order rewriting system if you make the application a binary function symbol: App(App(K,x),y) -> x; App(App(App(S,x),y),z) -> App(App(x,z),App(y,z))
< 1754331688 455842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which /may/ capture at least some of the restrictions you're after.
< 1754331694 898504 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That's somewhat along the same direction, yeah. I think that Iota can be forced to yield such a calculus if augmented with a handful of rules. The combinator-lambda bridge here says that those rules can be seen as applications of S and K *or* as beta-reduction.
< 1754331715 564874 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you disagree with Wikipedia when it states "An expression that contains no free variables is said to be closed. Closed lambda expressions are also known as combinators and are equivalent to terms in combinatory logic." ?
< 1754331740 794937 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: No I think korvo is just saying that that's not what he wants.
< 1754331830 535072 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps.
< 1754331841 29465 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Yes. In particular, while there's an arrow from combinators to lambda terms s.t. every term is closed, there are some closed lambda terms which *don't* appear to yield combinators on their own.
< 1754331880 105002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :("root" meaning the rules have to match whole terms, not subterms)
< 1754331894 91374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It seems like this hasn't been a problem for most authors because they've assumed that the basis will always include S and K. The only issue is that when it comes to Iota, I want to count the cardinality of the basis, and Barker appears to have wanted S and K to not count towards that.
< 1754331939 295658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"equivalent to terms in combinatory logic" -- I'd assume that whoever wrote this meant the SKI calculus.
< 1754331948 866230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which *is* often called combinatory logic.
< 1754332169 947693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not writing it in the article, but category theory has several natural examples of non-SK bases. Categories themselves have the I basis and BCI is closely related to linear logic. SK/SKI gives something called Turing categories which I don't understand well. So, I think questions about e.g. Iota+I are extremely natural.
< 1754332272 136100 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Er, categories have the BI basis, sorry.
< 1754332522 495165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aside: The first-order root-only rewriting formalism captures Turing Machines: Make a binary symbol for each state and a unary symbol for each tape element, plus $ for the end of the tape. Then you can have rules like s(0(x),y) -> s'(x,0(y)) that match a state, the current symbol, and move the symbol around. (this one moves left; moving right requires more rules)
< 1754332543 299829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :operationally this is keeping two stacks for the tape and a state symbol
< 1754332568 525856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this isn't a great way to minimize the basis ;-)
< 1754332668 382543 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I am currently seriously wondering whether a single-combinator basis exists. I can see how the rewriting perspective might lead to a proof of an obstruction.
< 1754332826 823631 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also so easy to have something that looks like a combinator syntactically but has more than one rule attached to it: https://treecalcul.us/specification/
< 1754332899 148341 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This kind of thing is why I was careful to say that the first-order restriction isn't the whole story)
< 1754332952 514784 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know that I've seen the notion of an "applicative rewrite system" inside of first-order rewriting but it's obscure enough that I can't find a reference for that with a search engine. Fun!
< 1754332982 415395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And as with many of these terms it's overloaded; it's also used for higher order rewriting.)
< 1754333058 455076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well, I *assume* that that tree calculus does not fit your idea of a combinator and that you want a single rule of a specific form for each combinator instead; notably, the left-hand-side should be the combinator applied to distinct variables.
< 1754333353 954483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(S and K satisfy an additional requirement where the right-hand sides are just applications of those variables.)
> 1754333361 541699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162845 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2801) 10The parts that we all agree upon, I hope.
< 1754333448 661102 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Right. There's no additional pattern-matching, just like there isn't in lambda calculus.
< 1754333504 729716 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Philosophically, we're trying to imagine extensionality. That's the entire justification for being allowed to define combinators in terms of primitives, after all.
< 1754333535 874550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, in SK, we don't have I. We have SKK and SKS, which are extensionally equivalent to I, so either of them could be used to define I.
< 1754333648 235728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :S(SK) often works too: S(SK)xy = xy
< 1754333735 375891 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. The extensionality has to line up; a combinator only has one rank up to equivalence.
< 1754334736 614684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Anyway I have the nagging feeling that I've seen a paper vaguely about this, though it may have been as generic as a single-rule first-order rewriting system... but I forgot where.
> 1754334803 744396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162846&oldid=162845 5* 03Corbin 5* (+525) 10/* Completeness */ Copy everything from [[Turing tarpit]] that is relevant.
< 1754334805 296320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFAIK S is still a candidate for TC-ness (though an unlikely one), but obviously not for combinatorial completeness
< 1754334871 345695 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought about that. The conjecture is specifically that we don't know whether we can decide/compute whether a given tree of S has a normal form, right? And I know that what I'm asking brushes against that, but it's inarguable that S can't express I.
< 1754334878 294050 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And it's marred by the rule 110 problem... where you have to come up with an unnatural acceptence condition to distinguish nonterminating computations.)
< 1754334943 902403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a paper proof that termination is decidable. The caveat is that it's complicated enough that there may be gaps in it.
< 1754335264 846089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: ^^ I think that [[closed lambda term]] now has a decent summary of what we all agree upon. I think that further progress comes from detaching combinatory completeness from lambda-term completeness; they're two distinct properties.
< 1754335268 49249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh there's https://www.combinatorprize.org/ which strongly indicates that TC-ness is still open. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890540100928748 is the paper version of the decidability of termination. The thesis used to be online, but I can't find it now?
< 1754335598 853613 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Maybe thinking about this from a formal-logic perspective is illuminating? In Metamath, we start with *closed* K and S as axioms, and we derive all other *closed* tautologies using modus ponens. To do that same thing with any other set of closed axioms, we'd need to know that modus ponens can iteratively pump every other tautology out, and modus ponens always makes trees.
< 1754335684 294844 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, classical Metamath has Meredith's classical axiom https://us.metamath.org/mpeuni/meredith.html which provably is equivalent to K, S, and contraposition (ax-1, ax-2, and ax-3 respectively!)
< 1754335818 806435 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, *can* we start from closed Iota? On paper, it looks like the answer is no. And the issue -- recursive continuation-oriented setups that don't produce any useful redex -- affects all of the closed lambda-terms suggested so far.
< 1754335936 514275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also tromp's (I think) α = ^^^``20`1^1 = λx y z. x z (y (λ_. z)) with I = ``α`α``α`ααα``α`ααα, K = ``α`αα``````α`ααααααα, S = ```α`α```αα``αα`αα`α`α``αα`αααα
< 1754335982 402959 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(` is Polish notation for abstraction, i.e., Unlambda style)
< 1754336000 594021 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And ^ for lambda abstraction also comes from the Unlambda context)
< 1754336054 513834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's in the same boat as Iota in that it expands to a term with a lambda. But it's better in the sense that it doesn't contain S, but only K.
< 1754336062 513648 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :λ_. z = K z
< 1754336542 474413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's also quote horrific: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alpha-s-min.html is an abridged reduction for S... abridged in the sense that irrelevant subterms are replaced by ⊥ as early as possible
< 1754336605 354735 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you can hover over the start of a subterm to mark subterms which makes this *somewhat* readable)
< 1754336626 140355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Firefox asked me whether I'd like that page automatically translated from Greek to English.
< 1754336634 333932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1754336646 433948 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, that's stupid.
< 1754336653 886255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, at least it didn't crash. That's always a thing Firefox can choose to do.
< 1754336685 903380 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a user called mtve helped find that term
< 1754336689 893753 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have that switched off. I'm sure it did briefly anger me before I switched it off. I don't remember when.)
< 1754336746 194979 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Oh wow. If I'm counting right, that's Fokker size seven!? Congrats to you two.
< 1754336754 473199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: Yeah I only remember that my contribution back then was these colorful reductions. You had already found those terms.
< 1754336799 380572 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were looking for minimal basis in terms of size in bits
< 1754336801 915174 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(early 2022 is when I learned about this)
> 1754337314 16263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162847&oldid=159597 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-107) 10
> 1754337705 393907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162848&oldid=162846 5* 03Corbin 5* (+209) 10/* Completeness */ Spell out some of the shortest complete terms and add a recently-discovered term by Tromp & mtve.
< 1754337729 116355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, added that one. Seven is a lot closer to three than I had expected!
< 1754338894 746704 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1754338913 173431 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good old off-by-ones or -multiples 😉
< 1754338916 141011 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hail Eris! 😇
< 1754339718 782625 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( it's not a calculus )
< 1754339769 652667 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "Elementary arithmetic as syntactical operations" by Peter Hancock in 2001-11-11 at )
< 1754340181 141561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ski: names are always accurate
< 1754340533 72049 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9931:a689:a59b:4288 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1754340812 413666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And now I'm reminded of how annoyed I am about the roles of reification and reflection in https://hackage.haskell.org/package/reflection
< 1754340838 994280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(reflections are immaterial, and Haskell's types are erased at runtime, so clearly those are the immaterial ones)
< 1754341130 826952 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "The term 'algebra' is used in this book as a name for a system with free variables but no bound variables. [..] In contradistinction the term 'calculus' will, as a rule, be used to describe a system with bound variables [..] Systems like combinatory logic which contain no variables do not come under either term." )
< 1754341170 590135 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :could you expand on the "reflections are immaterial" ?
< 1754341311 431930 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754342127 699242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ski: reflections are virtual images (in optics)
< 1754342151 918733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than tangible objects
< 1754342195 92966 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of c
< 1754342203 54229 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, and reification materialize, objectify, an immaterial pattern ?
< 1754342214 532535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1754342289 837121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to complete that interrupted sentence: of course "optics" as a term has also been co-opted by functional programmers, just to make that statement more confusing.
< 1754342316 603328 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :i suspect the naming in that package was borrowed from Andrzej Filinski's "Monadic Reflection" papers. so that `reify 6 (\p -> reflect p + reflect p)' there looks similar to the corresponding (say `reify (fn () => reflect () + reflect ())') for environment monad being reflected
< 1754342356 553094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine (but don't know) that it traces back to Java's notion of reflection.
< 1754342361 712763 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :iow, what is being reified by `reify' is the environment side-effect
< 1754342417 55159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And with Java's runtime it's far less clear what's material and what isn't.
< 1754342445 40298 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :mm. i'm not too sure whether it's related that much to the Java thing
< 1754342531 663605 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :(hmm .. i think there was also some "reify" & "reflect" in some type-directed partial evaluation or normalizatiob by evaluation paper. not sure about the relative timeline of that, and Filinski)
> 1754342612 405849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162849&oldid=162602 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-1) 10/* ALMFCPLIR */ oopz
< 1754343057 251009 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION . o O ( "Representing Monads" in 1994-01 and "Representing Layered Monads" in 1999-01, both by Andrzej Filinski, at (code "RM.tar.gz" ,"RLM.tar.gz" ) )
> 1754343079 844999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162850&oldid=162592 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+21) 10/* ALMFCPLIR */
< 1754344575 880179 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754345459 474452 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754345631 290233 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1754345753 438406 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1754345802 581796 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I hadn't realized that Firefox even has a setting to switch off the offer to translate entirely. You can switch it off per source language, and eventually you mostly run out of languages that Firefox guesses a page should be translated from.
< 1754346457 413234 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754347858 778702 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754348156 367153 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1754348219 781648 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1754349536 65460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754349622 491798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : What ais523 described yesterday (keyword was CPS) sounded like he wanted this kind of first-order restriction *plus* only root steps. ← I don't normally want that in general, but I did want it for the specific project I was working on
< 1754349707 582255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it was basically an interpreter implemented from an operational semantics, and the operational semantics needed to be as simple and clear as possible – and if you're pattern matching or doing reductions not at the root, that is a considerable complication in the semantics
< 1754349798 432401 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that kind of makes sense, in that you have to describe how exactly you're doing the pattern matching and replacement, ideally in a deterministic way
< 1754349913 549454 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could be nondeterministic if you want, but you have to be specific in what ways it's allowed to be nondeterministic
< 1754349995 914715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh good, Wolfram mentions the problem with evaluation order mattering
< 1754350034 802232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although doesn't add a rule like "leftmost-outermost" – I think it's up to the submitter to define an evaluation order
< 1754350066 912110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Wolfram did point out that if the term normalizes, the evaluation order doesn't matter – but I don't think that helps here, because you'd expect any TC behaviour to be in a non-halting program)
< 1754350406 168227 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
< 1754350524 584489 :Noisytoot!~noisytoot@user/meow/Noisytoot PART #esolangs :Leaving
< 1754351325 517285 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754352013 946406 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1754352189 493614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm pretty sure that if I had assumed that it was a general desire I would've used "wants" instead of "wanted" :)
< 1754352213 15549 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding
< 1754352247 833433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course
< 1754352494 475960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Wolfram does this where about what system?
< 1754352506 958237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: proving TCness of S
< 1754352536 457780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't combinator calculus have an order that is TC if any order is TC?
< 1754352607 744930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the issue here is that the TCness is expected to not be in the behaviour of the resulting terms, but rather the process of reducing htem
< 1754352664 288738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good way to think about it is to think about the rewrite rule for S, S(x)(y)(z) → x(z)(y(z)), as the rule of a rewriting-based esolang rather than the implementation of a function
< 1754352680 412148 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, if it's S combinator only, that explains why you said the TCness is likely in non-halting programs
< 1754352693 684054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and "non-halting-based TCness" is allowed, although (as usual) hard to define
< 1754352708 86729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly
< 1754352748 404895 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the first computers that I used didn't have a concept of halting, unless an external person turns off their power switch or unplugs them, so this seems obvious
< 1754352786 68817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, the usual definition of halting for such systems is the "tight infinite loop", i.e. an infinite loop that repeats the same sequence of states over and over again, making it obvious that the loop cannot be broken
< 1754352807 794920 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are more complicated halting states too
< 1754352849 857075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my 2,3 Turing machine proof originally used "any of these specific locations on the tape are visited twice", although I eventually found a construction for which halting sent the tape head to the left of its starting point
< 1754352900 236467 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, at least not in the case I'm talking about: those computers all have some form of output device, so instead of halting you'd look at whether they output something specific
< 1754352912 400636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that's another good definition
< 1754352925 111322 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could even in theory connect the output device to the power supply
< 1754352959 865382 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and all modern computers do that, but that was called "ATX motherboard and ATX-compatible power supply" and an innovation in my lifetime
< 1754352963 76852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think some early 386 computers had a way for the microprocessor to ask the keyboard controller to reset the microprocessor
< 1754352973 56231 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the first implementation was called that
< 1754352975 682664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in order to get back into real mode from protected mode
< 1754352995 850217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although later people figured out that you could do it with an intentional triple fault instead)
< 1754353005 102469 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: reset, yes, but in a way that the computer can keep some state across that, so it's not really a halt state
< 1754353028 828556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it reset the entire state of the microprocessor, but the state you really care about is mostly in RAM which isn't reset the same way
< 1754353048 241928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it erases some of the state, sure
< 1754353085 185038 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it may even erase state in a way that's inconvenient for practical programming
< 1754353168 890141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I doubt it's that much worse than a context switch
< 1754353186 76947 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which may be a feature by the way: there is an advantage to a computer like a Commodore-64 where if no extension cartridge is plugged in then you can make some data in memory survive, but the reset drops you into a BASIC prompt with no automatic way without user interaction to continue the previous program, so you can't make malware that survives intentional resets
< 1754353198 436638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might have to spill some of the MSRs and control registers, but in the 386 days I doubt there were all that many of them to spill (there are probably a lot more nowadays)
< 1754353230 144739 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not even just memory, it could be a casette tape or, if you have more money, floppy, but the point is that the computer doesn't automatically run a program from them after startup, it can just read them if you so ask
< 1754353245 167675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I believe I found the list of languages in the settings and removed them all. (I checked now and the list is empty.)
< 1754353262 393686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't used Firefox's translator yet, but I don't mind it asking me
> 1754353264 500924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trifack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162851 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+845) 10created page
< 1754353301 171290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: But I also disabled browser.translations.automaticallyPopup which I suspect I did by checking about:config.
< 1754353322 187484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the important part is that it's turned off ;-)
> 1754353370 900394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Shazun bhasfu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162852&oldid=160119 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+1427) 10
< 1754353417 582248 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I sort of find it insulting, like it makes the assumption of websites of multinational companies that assumes that everyone speaks only one language, they want to see their website in that one language even if it's in a bad translation, and this language depends only on the country, so you have to lie to them that you want the website for "Serbia" or some such to get it to give you info in
< 1754353423 588298 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :English but still tell you what they're selling in continental Europe
< 1754353435 197748 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: for a few versions
< 1754353447 752306 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: often I like to be able to read both the original and a machine translation
< 1754353477 530593 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't read any non-English language nearly as well as you read English, but I know the basics of many of them
< 1754353504 647936 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I especially hate Ebay because it started to automatically translate the listings of all third-party sellers. it's one thing to make your website give badly translated info, but it's much more arrogant to translate listings and try to force buyers to buy something without being able to read what the seller offers to them
< 1754353510 9060 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the offer to translate is potentially useful for me, but only as an offer where I can say "yes this time" or "no this time"
< 1754353513 631462 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean from a third-party seller
< 1754353525 205665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a *forced* translation would definitely be bad
< 1754353530 533003 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: exactly
< 1754353561 644547 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and Ebay seems to be doing that, or at least they're pushing the translation hard, I don't claim that there's no way to fool Ebay to give you the original listing
< 1754353584 500061 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my learning of foreign languages is almost entirely concerned with reading – I don't normally have a need to write or speak, and listening is more difficult than reading and subtitles are usually available for content that isn't in written form already)
> 1754353694 481621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Trifack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162853&oldid=162851 5* 03Shazun bhasfu 5* (+1) 10/* example programs */
< 1754353777 429911 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I hardly know any Hungarian despite having actually been to Hungary
< 1754353814 769963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"húzni" and "tolni" were easy to deduce from context, but that's about the extent of what I picked up
> 1754355072 177954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162854&oldid=162807 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+938) 10
< 1754355809 432095 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits JOIN #esolangs fruits4fruits :realname
< 1754355822 521874 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :so
< 1754355856 98518 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh
< 1754355870 867261 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :the time on my computer was wrong
< 1754355896 155498 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs : and my computer started to not work properly
< 1754355914 682681 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i had to fix the time
< 1754355920 983982 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :on my computer
< 1754355934 555592 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs : but it didnt fix it
< 1754355962 789072 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits PRIVMSG #esolangs :i had to do everything by myself to fix it
< 1754356296 740189 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fruits4fruits: Yeah, it's funny how a clock is easy to change, but timestamps can be indelible.
< 1754356595 674217 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION searches his box of blue cards for Regress (Mirrodin)
> 1754357854 467368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162855&oldid=162816 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+152) 10
< 1754357866 552270 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Chewing through this combinator S paper. It's not easy. I'm on p9, telling myself that X/Y is read as "a slide of X onto Y" in order to cope. Might be dinner time.
> 1754358832 244798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162856&oldid=162834 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-214) 10
> 1754358855 495835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162857&oldid=162856 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1754358927 337103 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162858&oldid=162857 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+106) 10
> 1754359144 228268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162859&oldid=162858 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+65) 10
> 1754359156 524361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162860&oldid=162859 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+10) 10
> 1754359413 133886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox/OotT ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162861&oldid=162860 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+52) 10
> 1754361540 159547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162862 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+4043) 10linguifex is too unstable :(
> 1754362089 380197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162863&oldid=162830 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-350) 10/* Calling functions */
> 1754362331 721230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162864&oldid=162863 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-16) 10/* Whitespace and comments */
> 1754362903 718596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/Krotal-Tadopar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162865&oldid=162862 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+47) 10/* Core Words */
> 1754365192 397487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162866&oldid=162864 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+587) 10
> 1754365248 93956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162867&oldid=162866 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754365260 438569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162868&oldid=162867 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754367613 802548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Idea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162869&oldid=162378 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+30) 10
< 1754368275 408495 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754370882 827722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162870&oldid=161736 5* 03Corbin 5* (+944) 10Clean up example, move it to top, and add section on properties.
> 1754371707 435151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162871&oldid=162844 5* 03Corbin 5* (-589) 10/* Minimal combinator bases */ Split into two sections. Iota is not a combinator, but it is a closed lambda term. Fix up refs too.
> 1754371788 610922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162872&oldid=162871 5* 03Corbin 5* (+0) 10/* Minimal closed lambda terms */ Fix formatting.
> 1754371838 879247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lambda calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162873&oldid=102882 5* 03Corbin 5* (+25) 10/* See also */ Closed lambda terms.
> 1754372049 955888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iota14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162874&oldid=162823 5* 03Corbin 5* (-588) 10Remove speculative/wrong stuff. Sorry about that!
> 1754372627 343620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162875&oldid=162848 5* 03Corbin 5* (+989) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ Hack out this section.
> 1754372924 590693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Closed lambda term14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162876&oldid=162875 5* 03Corbin 5* (+21) 10/* Via lambda calculus */ Make it clear that x.c is not closed.
> 1754374485 294353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162877&oldid=162870 5* 03Corbin 5* (+375) 10/* Combinators */ Integrate above sections, hack out theorems, and remove some non-combinators documented at [[closed lambda term]].
> 1754374652 938229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162878&oldid=162877 5* 03Corbin 5* (-42) 10/* BCKW calculus */ Don't spuriously re-define combinators. It's the same K combinator in both systems.
< 1754374715 672887 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I'm nearly done. I *think* that I haven't accidentally deleted an entire section of related links, but I did shuffle some references.
< 1754376369 159022 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754376501 453394 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754378903 999812 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754380523 556712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1754381961 58230 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754382230 808006 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: nice, can you edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload too?
< 1754382478 905956 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hmm, I should figure out a better phrasing for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming because I think "based on tuples" is an inaccurate description for FP and Amicus. they are based on functions with arbitrary (but fixed at compile time) number of arguments. it's a hypothetical language with no currying, no upvalues, and single argument functions that can be said to be based on tuples,
< 1754382484 914911 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I don't think such a thing exists in pure form and it probably shouldn't.
< 1754382645 505644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Amycus is an exception, because it actually has an apply builtin rather than a call builtin, it's broken in exactly that way
< 1754382726 634850 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I may be saying something wrong about Amicus and Amycus here, I'll have to look more into this
< 1754383072 461051 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, FP is tuple-based too
< 1754383090 827579 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should look into this later
< 1754390001 483610 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754390888 155781 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754392876 958914 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754392903 817292 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1754392955 952438 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1754394484 321487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 😃
< 1754394489 844501 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :[U+1F603 SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
< 1754394672 895488 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754395431 606181 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode 😦
< 1754395435 495031 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :[U+1F626 FROWNING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]
< 1754395470 957826 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Turn that smile off for a while." Or "make that smile full of guile." (Poetry less than graciously provided by Gemini.)
< 1754395570 332853 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754395596 68026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: somebody on Bluesky was asking what that emoji is supposed to convey.
> 1754396310 614540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162879&oldid=162868 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+73) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754399108 258267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162880&oldid=162839 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+957) 10
> 1754399838 15432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162881&oldid=162879 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+81) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754399878 39911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162882&oldid=162881 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-17) 10/* #tc - Transitivity and commutativity */
< 1754400418 869525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1754400652 164145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162883&oldid=162880 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+428) 10
< 1754402423 461265 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1754402826 732856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162884&oldid=162836 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+593) 10
> 1754403026 258256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ROHA 5* 10New user account
< 1754403433 943425 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754405411 954875 :fruits4fruits!~f4fruits@user/fruits4fruits QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754405687 810950 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754405704 710249 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~DOS_User_ :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1754406635 914997 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754407377 104047 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754409259 319053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162885&oldid=162882 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10/* Defining functions */
> 1754411715 710763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162886&oldid=162883 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1687) 10
< 1754412516 729417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't know how we should say it, but there's an equivalence between multicategories (functions take and return multiple arguments) and monoidal-closed categories (functions take and return single arguments, tuples are values) so we have a choice about how to present them.
< 1754412538 372640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Cammy's models are monoidal closed too.
< 1754412711 760294 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754412840 768252 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to think about what to say for Underload, also Unlambda and Mlatu. TBH I think that the existing pages are decent enough; they aren't based on combinatory-logic combinators, but on a specific stack+contatenative paradigm for which we don't really have a good name.
> 1754414033 999979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162887&oldid=162886 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+899) 10
> 1754414097 853578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162888&oldid=162887 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+3) 10
> 1754414526 284542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of zilliondollars14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162889 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+533) 10Created page with "[[99 bottles of zilliondollars]] is an esolang made by [[WarzokERNST135]]. It was made to do 99 bottles of beer and many programs. ==Examples== ===[[99 bottles of beer]]=== zillion { encode(ispl).shark(#u!I$*~~"${$$}bottles of beer on the
> 1754414555 328622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WarzokERNST13514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162890&oldid=162827 5* 03WarzokERNST135 5* (+37) 10
< 1754414720 313222 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754415230 395523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1754416190 343208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162891&oldid=162885 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+251) 10
> 1754416228 903557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162892&oldid=162891 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+1) 10
> 1754419913 182971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162893&oldid=162878 5* 03Corbin 5* (+175) 10/* Properties */ Rank is an invariant.
> 1754421116 307992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162894&oldid=162893 5* 03Corbin 5* (+559) 10/* Non-primitives */ Format the table.
< 1754421435 757115 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754421874 374344 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Do you have any sources on the non-Smullyan bird names? Several names are missing from their glossary, e.g. B2 and B3 as "Bunting" and "Becard".
< 1754421940 78561 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps they're mentioned in the book and weren't in the glossary, in which case I can spend a few hours re-reading a classic.
> 1754422067 722693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162895&oldid=162894 5* 03Corbin 5* (+308) 10Cracked open my copy of Mockingbird and double-checked the bird names.
> 1754422109 208359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Asm2bf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162896&oldid=132131 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (-6) 10
< 1754422297 16255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Yep, it's the latter case. For example, p104 of my 2000 paperpack printing names F* as the once-removed finch.
< 1754422608 747049 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754423958 778804 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I only have the bird book in translation. In theory I can try to look up if a bird is named, but not what it's named in the original, and I don't really care about the specific names of most birds.
< 1754424056 616607 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the list in the appendix doesn't have anything named B2 or B3. that doesn't guarantee that the main text doesn't mention those.
> 1754424098 781358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162897&oldid=162888 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+919) 10
< 1754424238 314638 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones, for the rest use an expression made of those, or a lambda expression, or a Haskell name, or an unlambda name etc
< 1754424341 253581 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unlambda's d and c are probably not birds)
< 1754424384 315349 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1754424467 985159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162898&oldid=162895 5* 03Corbin 5* (-169) 10/* Table of combinators */ Found most of the unsourced birds; they're in Smullyan, but not in the glossary.
< 1754424517 100241 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No worries. I re-read the relevant sections. Most of the names not in the glossary are part of the big list of compositing operators in Bravura's forest.
< 1754424541 552515 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what an omega or theta bird is though.
< 1754424749 643312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you mean Theta, that is listed in the appendex
> 1754425213 716570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162899&oldid=162797 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-258) 10/* Commands */ we really don't need more
> 1754425317 580477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162900&oldid=162898 5* 03Corbin 5* (+406) 10/* Properties */ Add two more important properties.
< 1754425366 708885 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, curious. This must be a difference between our copies. Mine says that θ x = x (θ x); and calls it "sage bird". That's normally the combinator we call Y, though. So I'm not sure what the θ symbol should be.
> 1754425488 204312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162901&oldid=162897 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1479) 10
< 1754425653 834882 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes, that is the definition given in the appendix
> 1754425666 542448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162902&oldid=162892 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+21) 10/* Defining functions */
< 1754425679 778501 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the symbol for it is Theta, the fancy name is sage bird
< 1754425946 557660 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, okay. The definition given on the wiki is Y O, or Y (S I), which appears to have the same behavior as Y? Y (S I) x = S I (Y (S I)) x = I x (Y (S I) x) = x (Y (S I) x)
< 1754425976 116865 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't see it in the big list of Turing bird expressions. Perhaps this is the cost of not eating lunch.
< 1754426432 774258 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
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< 1754426591 480312 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754426832 878242 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754427177 645436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Definition14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162903&oldid=162829 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+3) 10you can remove the question mark if you can call this as a subset
> 1754428459 382709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162904&oldid=162901 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+2127) 10
< 1754429710 2794 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754430207 513396 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754431050 420364 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1754431782 993006 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia JOIN #esolangs amadaluzia :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1754433184 760480 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User
< 1754433718 2604 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754433726 760332 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User
< 1754434055 350628 :DOS_User!~DOS_User@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754434077 759814 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754434509 922141 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754436036 393589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162905&oldid=162904 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+266) 10
< 1754437390 225134 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1754437539 441949 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1754438036 17685 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754438932 807072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162906&oldid=162905 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+861) 10
> 1754439113 712566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162907&oldid=162900 5* 03Corbin 5* (+367) 10Shuffle headers to focus on systems. Also fill in a couple missing rows in the table.
< 1754442445 575933 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754442460 757445 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754443154 797572 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754443680 265213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162908&oldid=162907 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1899) 10Put SKI and BCKW on the same ground as other systems in the literature.
< 1754444148 661443 :amadaluzia!~amadaluzi@user/amadaluzia QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.10.1 - https://znc.in
> 1754445134 968818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162909&oldid=162908 5* 03Corbin 5* (+696) 10/* Properties */ Finish listing properties. What they have in common is some sort of obstruction to completeness.
> 1754445485 131293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162910&oldid=162902 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-33) 10/* #df - Definitions of functions */
< 1754446234 950860 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1754447646 691550 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1754447917 492281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162911&oldid=162909 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2819) 10Add a detailed section on completeness and related concepts.
> 1754449940 786606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162912&oldid=162872 5* 03Corbin 5* (+436) 10/* Minimal combinator bases */ Use theorems from [[combinatory logic]] to carefully circumscribe the possibility of a singleton basis.
< 1754450017 861996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Okay, I *think* I've patched up all of the spots where I was spouting wrongness. Certainly I think [[Iota]] is cleaned up already.
< 1754450074 47532 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that a single-combinator basis is still possible. But it can't be Iota, which has rank one and is linear in that sole argument. We gotta treat combinators and closed lambda terms as different things.
> 1754450155 471453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thomas 5* 10New user account
> 1754450535 544692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162913&oldid=162779 5* 03Thomas 5* (+213) 10Introducing my self.
> 1754451472 474393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hibiscus 5* 10New user account
< 1754451834 948692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I never did find a way to cite "The Combinator S", but thank you for linking it anyway. I enjoyed it even though it was not easy or fun.
< 1754452112 297806 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Well, "fun" is relative, right?
> 1754452153 135604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162914&oldid=162913 5* 03Hibiscus 5* (+172) 10
> 1754452749 403933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/PasteBin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162915&oldid=162884 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-595) 10
> 1754452809 448953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LayerCake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162916&oldid=156185 5* 03HellsfargoMC 5* (+4) 10/* Fibonacci.lc: */ corrected programming mistake
> 1754456704 304662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User made14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162917 5* 03Helpeesl 5* (+335) 10This is the 4th esolang experiment by me guys, will come back August 6th 2026 to make the page
> 1754456844 320704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162918 5* 03Thomas 5* (+5010) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GnomeLang |paradigms=Concurrent,Declarative,Imperative,Spatial |author=[[User:Thomas]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]] |dimensions=theoretically infinite-dimensional |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|T
> 1754456916 953380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162919&oldid=162918 5* 03Thomas 5* (-1) 10
> 1754457075 28706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162920&oldid=162919 5* 03Thomas 5* (+124) 10
> 1754457110 748536 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162921&oldid=162920 5* 03Thomas 5* (-110) 10
> 1754457185 302411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162922 5* 03Thomas 5* (+56) 10Created page with "== Languages I take responsibility for == *[[GnomeLang]]"
> 1754457274 256438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162923&oldid=162921 5* 03Thomas 5* (+1) 10
> 1754457324 764709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162924&oldid=162923 5* 03Thomas 5* (+15) 10
> 1754457347 153970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162925&oldid=162924 5* 03Thomas 5* (+1) 10
> 1754457548 225512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162926&oldid=162745 5* 03Thomas 5* (+16) 10
> 1754457719 920114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162927&oldid=162925 5* 03Thomas 5* (+14) 10
> 1754457815 832451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162928&oldid=162927 5* 03Thomas 5* (-2) 10
> 1754457932 734422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162929&oldid=162922 5* 03Thomas 5* (+28) 10
> 1754458009 329218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162930&oldid=162928 5* 03Thomas 5* (+23) 10Replaced spawn with construct, and removed dwarf adjacent typos
> 1754458769 321676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Thomas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162931&oldid=162929 5* 03Thomas 5* (-28) 10
< 1754462596 126517 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754462816 760474 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754462844 51465 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754462861 696310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162932&oldid=162930 5* 03Thomas 5* (+22) 10
> 1754462887 443615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162933&oldid=162932 5* 03Thomas 5* (-1) 10
< 1754462890 805961 :iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!~iiiiiiiii@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
< 1754462892 487230 :iiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!~iiiiiiiii@21.red-81-33-48.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754462938 771508 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1754462981 752879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:.t/GravelContainer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162934 5* 03.t 5* (+108) 10Created page with "{{{2|Javascript!
}}}"
< 1754463121 890317 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1754463394 104989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03!!!!! 5* 10New user account
> 1754463629 191486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162935&oldid=162914 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+133) 10
> 1754463656 499354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162936 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+15) 10Created page with "This is a test."
> 1754463660 33088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162937 5* 03!!!!! 5* (+15) 10Created page with "This is a test."
> 1754463980 208051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162938&oldid=162933 5* 03Thomas 5* (+67) 10
> 1754464153 16920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Disan Count Pesudocode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162939&oldid=136970 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-20) 10/* Disan Count */
< 1754464248 19519 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1754464469 103529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162940&oldid=162938 5* 03Thomas 5* (-3) 10
> 1754466291 197780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Textile14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162941&oldid=134001 5* 03Dtp09 5* (-37) 10rephrased some explanations, changed "replacements" to "macros", added spaces after code example comments, other minor edits
> 1754466323 624403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162942&oldid=162940 5* 03Thomas 5* (+112) 10
> 1754466527 303238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dtp0914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162943&oldid=152178 5* 03Dtp09 5* (-59) 10
> 1754467804 469648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162944&oldid=162942 5* 03Thomas 5* (-221) 10
> 1754467823 959965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162945&oldid=162944 5* 03Thomas 5* (-100) 10
< 1754470619 281732 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754471664 996428 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754471946 183285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ESOPUNK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162946 5* 03L4.m2 5* (+212) 10Created page with "== Turing Complete == It should simulate Counter machine by Godel with if (x7 == 0) <=> MODI X 7 T ++x7 <=> MULI X 7 X --x7 <=> DIVI X 7 X Not sure if it act everything when introducing (infinite) IO, though"
> 1754472452 5082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRPE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162947&oldid=161336 5* 03Bil-joodusstudios 5* (+0) 10The source code for the interpreter I made was created in 2022 and so were the first programs and thus the date 2023 was inaccurate
< 1754472787 940683 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754472937 866369 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.59.71.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1754476757 763079 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754477693 287173 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754478719 337308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754478732 518799 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754478878 793614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : I, K, KI, S, B, C, W are the important ones ← also «flip id» – that's one of the few that's important enough that I special-cased it in my combinator evaluator
< 1754478902 869746 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :according to the list on the wiki, it's called "thrush"
< 1754478916 476609 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I don't really like using bird names, it's just confusing
< 1754479062 446251 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754479290 180790 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1754479599 749369 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1754479627 977327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, this reminds me: instead of BCKW you can use BTKW, C is B (T T) (B B (B (T B) (B B T)))
< 1754479652 954250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although this is the sort of trick that somewhat reminds me of Underload without ~
< 1754479728 389409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked at this, I suspected that this would be TC even without K (via the bit-bucked method), although I didn't come up with a workable proof
< 1754479781 580546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now it crosses my mind that ~ and ! are the two combinators you can simple-translate out of Underload
< 1754479805 58214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously they aren't *exact* matches for C and K but there are nonetheless obvious similarities
< 1754479901 571623 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754479931 833832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and the obvious name for this basis is "BTW"
< 1754479956 920817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* bit-bucket method
< 1754480264 896465 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754480696 156740 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal JOIN #esolangs Vorpal :Vorpal
< 1754480787 732808 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wb Vorpal
< 1754480813 200021 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi, according to client logs I did briefly visit here in 2023
< 1754480878 384193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays we chat somewhat asynchronously via the logs, usually – we've been talking about combinators over the past few days
< 1754480918 73361 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that much into esolangs these days, don't have much time for it.
< 1754480961 832653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fair enough – I've been less into it than I used to be, I think
< 1754480988 425945 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been working more on practical languages, which is a lot more difficult to produce results with quickly
< 1754480995 536304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe more useful when you do
< 1754481026 528591 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, doing things that are useful and feel like they are worth your time, it gets more important the older you get I think
< 1754481049 155458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, the esolangs results feel more useful sometimes
< 1754481061 596507 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…but a smaller audience
< 1754481147 746362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I enjoyed golfing down the TCness construction for Magic: the Gathering – after a while it turned into working out what could easily be constructed and then trying to prove it TC
< 1754481254 422173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, I guess the way that I use Rust is on the verge of turning it into an esolang – lots of trying to prove things with the type system)
< 1754481338 770147 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, while I build useful cli programs mostly
< 1754481349 786285 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and am experimenting with rust on a ESP32
< 1754481409 755960 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, I'm getting the sort of issues that normal rust protects against. I'm trying to do DMA and getting hardware exceptions
< 1754481418 872462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh
< 1754481440 621194 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I want to do a sound visualiser (with a I2S microphone)
< 1754481465 826277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've programmed both microcontrollers and DSPs in the past, but it was a long time ago now
< 1754481498 775474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the microcontrollers had around 100 bytes of RAM (+ a few kilobytes of nonwritable program memory)
< 1754481527 373218 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :The rust abstractions are interesting, using lots of typestate patterns and ownership for peripherals
< 1754481531 725882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, you could write it in hardware, just not in software
< 1754481585 719401 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ESP32 dev board I use has like ~500 kB usable SRAM, 4 MB flash and 8 MB external DRAM
< 1754481595 284519 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :240 MHz, dual core
< 1754481597 100053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like Rust doesn't do typestate properly at the moment (thus the interest in strong updates), but it should work if you're managing global variables (which hardware resources effectively are)
< 1754481635 632108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether microcontrollers are more powerful nowadays; my guess is "more powerful microcontrollers exist but the very small ones still exist because they're cheap and many products don't need much power"
< 1754481644 939182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computational power, that is, not electrical power
< 1754481654 724181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess the two may be correlated!
< 1754481677 216523 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah the ESP32 is on the upper end for sure. But most micros used for new projects are 32-bit these days. Mostly ARM and RISCV
< 1754481690 897988 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I doubt people do *new* projects on AVR for example
< 1754481839 353977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I stopped working on this before AVR became popular
< 1754481865 11550 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah I don't even know what came before that. Old Intel and Motorola parts iirc?
< 1754481869 198870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was nice being so close to the hardware
< 1754481879 617215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could just write to memory to change the voltage on pins
< 1754481887 253550 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the Microchip PIC series, right
< 1754481892 556213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I was using PICs
< 1754481936 670860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they were (are?) basically a transport-triggered architecture for all the hardware features and for memory addressing, but had arithmetic instructions (including RMW) in addition to just mov
< 1754481943 920865 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well yeah, hardware peripherals are usually memory mapped. Though some architectures have a separate IO bus (including x86, but that is only used for ISA, anything more modern is memory mapped instead)
< 1754482098 953649 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I have to say, I have moved towards systems/low level programming in general. Not that interested in abstract language design. For me, the most important question in language design: how is this useful for the practitioner?
< 1754482122 384785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my esolangs have tended towards useful too – although primarily in terms of being useful for proving things with
< 1754482141 820359 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :you went into academia, right?
< 1754482146 143834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model is probably my biggest esolang breakthrough since Underload (or maybe more so, because other people would have discovered Underload if I hadn't)
< 1754482164 92591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got a PhD, did a postdoc, then covid happened and I was ill for a few years
< 1754482171 949398 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ouch
< 1754482193 825820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I still go through frequent periods of not being able to concentrate on anything, which is making it difficult to get a job
< 1754482281 312680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :employers probably don't want employees who frequently and randomly do nothing for a 3-4 weeks at a time (it is improving, though – a couple of years ago it was measured in months rather than weeks)
< 1754482307 419092 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :still I think that shows the point really. "The Waterfall Model" looks nice, but I don't see how it is applicable to solving "real world problems" (however you define that). That doesn't mean it isn't valuable as research, but it doesn't really interest me much. It is the difference between pure and applied mathematics. I found out that I'm *way* over on the applied side.
< 1754482326 896652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, these aren't real-world problems but mathematical problems
< 1754482336 97021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it cut down the time for the typical TCness proof from a few days to a few mintues
< 1754482351 887643 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and started to make some of the more difficult TCness proofs viable
< 1754482438 473616 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most important theorem for me out of TCness and such has been Rice's theorem. Because it lets me say "this problem is one that cannot actually be solved (or at least not without false positives / negatives)". That result is in a sense a very applied one.
< 1754482463 513010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like Turing tarpits tend to be fundamentally either queue-based or counter-based; tag systems handle the queue-based languages, MInsky machines and TWM handle the counter-based languages depending on whether their problems are with data storage or control flow
< 1754482488 923095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, we know that there are problems about programming that we can't have general solutions to
< 1754482493 677139 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did do a esolang thing a few years ago, as a project to learn rust: https://github.com/VorpalBlade/brainoxide (ignore recent updates, it is just dependabot)
< 1754482542 904055 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :as it was my first rust thing, the code is for sure non-idomatic. Also there are several optimisations that aren't implemented because I got the internal graph representation wrong.
< 1754482553 257788 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But the goal was learning rust, so who cares)
< 1754482590 207387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to write an SSA optimiser for counter machines ages ago, but got lost – the internal representation was wrong I think
< 1754482598 260097 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I used it to experiment with github actions before applying those things on more important projects)
< 1754482609 695403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it should have been possible to adapt it to BF to some extent
< 1754482635 272782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult
< 1754482645 333416 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I try to avoid those as much as possible nowadays
< 1754482659 193548 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that an optimising BF compiler is actually more of a *decompiler*. Because you are trying to recover higher level structure out of a incredibly low level thing.
< 1754482661 378755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my latest big Rust project has involved reimplementing references
< 1754482681 917095 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :[14:17] also I hadn't realised that keeping up with dependencies was so difficult <-- that has not been my experience at all. Not in rust at least.
< 1754482685 647696 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well
< 1754482712 912652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the dependency bumps probably aren't required for it to continue working
< 1754482749 834207 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed, it also has a test suite, and fuzz testing
< 1754482753 15482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, it's surprising how often a crater run turns up "this obviously useless and wrong construct is used in an old version of some really widely used library"
< 1754482780 940398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that Rust projects bitrot faster than you would expect if you don't keep the dependencies up to date
< 1754482806 148125 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, yeah okay
< 1754482855 562855 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/VorpalBlade/chezmoi_modify_manager https://github.com/VorpalBlade/keyboard-backlightd and https://github.com/VorpalBlade/filkoll https://github.com/VorpalBlade/paketkoll are *useful* things I have written in rust. It is an amazing language for these sort of tools.
< 1754482918 657790 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least three of them I have gotten issue reports from other people, so some people are at least using them
< 1754482924 116895 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or tried to use them)
< 1754482937 515462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess whether I write useful things in Rust depends on whether you consider esolang interpreters useful :-D
< 1754482950 786973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I am working on larger useful projects too – it just takes a lot longer, especially with all the time not working)
< 1754483021 873485 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I especially like what I did in filkoll, with zero-copy deserialisation and mmap.
< 1754483050 282122 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I even wrote a blog post about it, which might be of interest if you are into squeezing every bit of performance from a program: https://vorpal.se/posts/2025/mar/25/filkoll-the-fastest-command-not-found-handler/
< 1754483056 52289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… IIRC mmap is very hard to use safely in Rust
< 1754483062 616436 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the blog goes into that
< 1754483067 255568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if you have any reference to any byte in the file, and someone changes the file…
< 1754483074 186003 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
< 1754483079 443288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you using the "array of UnsafeCell" method?
< 1754483085 284620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, slice
< 1754483086 484255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :read the blog :D
< 1754483107 427574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I will do at some point, but it takes a while
< 1754483120 405835 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm ensuring that the file isn't changed. I define what my thread model is.
< 1754483125 124791 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :threat*
< 1754483137 446083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been wondering about trying to use Linux leases to make mmap safe with Rust, but it's very hard to define because the safety becomes based on real-world time
< 1754483239 964702 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so the TLDR is that the file is written in one go by a cron job / systemd timer. So I do the temp file and move into place to atomically replace the file trick. And since this is done by root, and the reading phase of the program is normally run by not root, I consider root trusted. If you have malicious software writing those files you have way bigger issues.
< 1754483262 621903 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thus, mmap is safe.
< 1754483282 654516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a lease allows you to get a definitive answer to "will this file change in the next 10 seconds?", which Linux implements via delaying writes by 10 seconds while there is an active lease)
< 1754483303 758447 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although, you're supposed to drop the lease if the kernel tells you that someone wants to write)
< 1754483315 811210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: right – you're considering the file to be an extension of the program
< 1754483339 493279 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use the rkyv crate for actual zero-copy deserialisation of that data, and it too has safety requirements, about matching data structures being used. So I hash all of that and put it in a header, and if the hash doesn't match I don't load the file but print an error about regenerating the files
< 1754483339 723668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that isn't a general solution, but it works here
< 1754483374 44139 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also hash Cargo.lock into that)
< 1754483401 475764 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it is a cache file effectively, so for that case it works.
< 1754483424 352778 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to do mmap IPC or something like that, I agree: you have way more complex problems to deal with
< 1754483444 705222 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and keeping it all as raw pointers and doing volatile isn't attractive either
< 1754483482 374705 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh and I have also gotten into 3D printing and figuring out way to use as little plastic as possible while doing so.
< 1754483491 753069 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my most recent blog post is on that)
< 1754483508 179392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In particular it wouldn’t be safe to *not* do UTF-8 validation: It is possible to mix up handles from different interners." ← this is a major hole in Rust and the one that I'm currently spending most effort on trying to fix
< 1754483525 812776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically, the "mix up handles from different interners" part of it
< 1754483564 432858 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, branded lifetimes (ghost cell etc) could solve that, but awkwardly. But it absolutely doesn't work across serialisation and deserialisation.
< 1754483566 452017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote a blog post about it last year: http://ais523.me.uk/blog/scoped-generics.html
< 1754483567 707331 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is my use case
< 1754483599 297239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's mostly about making brands a) easier to use and b) able to transmit data across trait boundaries, even if the traits don't know about the data
< 1754483631 826985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, but I bet whatever solution you think of won't apply across serialisation and deserialisation, especially with rkyv which has a derive macro that generates separate types for deserialization that uses relative pointers
< 1754483646 932543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's compatible with serialisation (you make the deserialisation produce the appropriate brand at the same time as it reads the data), but it may not be compatible with existing deserialisation libraries
< 1754483649 468387 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that is the only way to make it *zero copy*
< 1754483651 196796 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1754483707 648404 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: deserialisation can't really do anything if you want it to be zero-copy. It has to be the equivalent of a std::mem::transmute basically.
< 1754483712 265075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing about brands is that they're ZSTs, so you can add them to existing data structures in a zero-copy way
< 1754483723 60215 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm ok
< 1754483724 175585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can transmute () into a ZST
< 1754483747 999916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difficult part is proving that you have the right one, but if you're using unsafe code that doesn't matter
< 1754483775 811477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, it's still difficult but it doesn't matter *to Rust*, just when you're writing the code
< 1754483795 192506 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could use unsafe code to skip the UTF-8 validation. It could be *sound* if I use it right. It just wouldn't be *safe*
< 1754483842 532059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – so the approach would be "having this brand on offset X means that data structure Y has valid UTF-8 starting from offset X"
< 1754483867 862052 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :sounds about right, yes
< 1754483875 392350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and as long as you serialise the list of offsets and the string dump, you can deserialise into some thing with the same branding structure, as long as you trust the bytes on disk
< 1754483880 761020 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1754483886 925241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* as long as you serialise them together
< 1754483898 142967 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I saw a blog the other day about lifetime brands in rust, I need to get around to reading it)
< 1754483911 647543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't read it yet, although I did write about it in my own blog post
< 1754483918 197020 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but I was on a road trip for the past week, didn't have time)
< 1754483928 764926 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1mhkvrs/the_generativity_pattern_in_rust/
< 1754483933 700869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't consider it a priority for reading because I thought I knew about the topic already, but maybe I should in case it says something I don't know
< 1754483938 571494 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754483943 105656 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :haven't had time to read the associated blog yet
< 1754483975 487180 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just knows the basics of it and filed it as "oh, that is neat, I don't have any immediate uses for this"
< 1754484044 742902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I think my opinion on "unsafe" is "I will use this if I have to, but I would prefer if I can get whatever I'm doing into the standard library so that I don't have to"
< 1754484046 14461 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but apparently there is more ways to do it than the scoped closure given an invariant lifetime
< 1754484052 974880 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I should probably read it
< 1754484110 90589 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: for sure. The question of motivation for unsafe becomes tricky when it becomes a performance question. E.g. I can save x% of the total runtime of my tool if I use unsafe. Is it worth it?
< 1754484137 700380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I work backwards – start with the theoretical performance limit and then see what the obstacles to reaching it are
< 1754484186 931663 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I write code that functions first, and then see where the bottlenecks are, and try to optimise it. I found perf, bpf etc to be surprisingly fun and enjoyable.
< 1754484188 674491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's how I came up with the 55GiB/s fizzbuzz
< 1754484210 393098 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, I remember that, yes
< 1754484235 996757 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did read the code, well part of it, I think I got lost somewhere around how the custom bytecode VM supposedly worked.
< 1754484239 281524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done the whole "looking for bottlenecks" thing but it's annoying
< 1754484303 719235 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found it enjoyable. And as a bonus you can be solving a practical problem a customer is having right now. That feels nice.
< 1754484333 205245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I came up with a good way to explain the VM: you can think of FizzBuzz as a sequence of instructions that output one byte each (at least if you know the number of digits in the numbers you're printing), that fact isn't useful if you just compile the instructions, but if you *interpret* the instructions you then have a SIMD situation (because it's the same interpreter for every instruction) and so you can vectorise
< 1754484357 210971 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Did something like that just before the vacation. The customer was running the program on a way less powerful machine than we used. So what we saw as 12-20% CPU load, they saw as 100%+ CPU load.
< 1754484403 668978 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Managed to cut the CPU usage in more than half there, plus I learned some new tools (tracy in particular, just sampling profiling wasn't enough).
< 1754484475 756402 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I left my colleagues with a list of things they should do to optimise it further (in other parts of the system)
< 1754484529 599626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm out of practice with actual practical programming – I am mostly trying to fix the theory and hoping it leads to improvements in the practice later on
< 1754484575 453383 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my last attempt to write a practical program didn't work out very well
< 1754484603 445605 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really can't find any energy or motivation for writing something that *doesn't* solve a practical problem any more.
< 1754484626 432544 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got burnout a few years ago, and in general even after that I have less energy than I used to
< 1754484669 292057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I spent ages trying to work out whether the "take the dot product of your key and the input" was a valid randomized hash function – eventually I figured out that it is only good if your aim is to have 0 collisions, because an attacker can increase the chance of a large multi-collision to unacceptably large values even though they can't influence the chance of there being any collisions at all)
< 1754484742 344984 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, hash functions is a bit of a problem. For most software I write, I would prefer a faster but non-DOS resitant hash for things like hashmaps
< 1754484743 300365 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the way I see it is, I could either try to solve one practical problem and get frustrated with the tools I'm working with, or I could try to make a million practical problems all a little easier to solve
< 1754484758 214564 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I don't have untrusted input in my threat model. They are cli programs!
< 1754484780 806282 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I wish is for rust / cargo to get the build-std support in proper shape
< 1754484790 260969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I generally have untrusted input in my threat model for CLI programs, but the threat is usually "the user accidentally renames or edits a file while the CLI is working on it"
< 1754484802 334943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :-Z build-std is seriously being worked on, as far as I can tell
< 1754484811 138497 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :then we could have std feature flags for things like DOS resistant hash functions, or normal vs priority inheritance mutxes
< 1754484815 407171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…although I guess it wouldn't be -Z any more once it's been finishd
< 1754484816 323479 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :mutices?
< 1754484842 387324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the normal plural is "mutexes", but as with any word ending in x it is likely to be pluralised in some interesting ways
< 1754484861 814522 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :man, let me tell you, hard real time Linux (which I do for my day job) doesn't get the love it deserve further up the stack in programming languages
< 1754484882 393561 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :English spelling is... interesting
< 1754484885 734226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this case "ex" is an abbreviation for "exclusino" so I think it pluralises using the same basic ruleset that "exclusion" uses
< 1754484917 586953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* for "exclusion"
< 1754484928 786253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hard realtime is one of those things where you really want the programming language to help
< 1754484937 179820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some sort of resource system, perhaps
< 1754484963 519306 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, from a mathematical point of view, hard realtime is easier to work with than non-hard-realtime concurrency
< 1754484977 987389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did some work on that in my PhD)
< 1754484992 92648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't have to worry about all the possible orderings of events if you know exactly how much time everything is taking
< 1754484992 934394 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :both C++ and Rust std mutexes doesn't do Priority Inheritance (PI). Which is a thing you really want. The underlying pthread mutex and/or futex does support it optionally. But you need to use/enable that variant.
< 1754485005 234346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I get a suspicion that modern OSes and programs aren't quite *that* hard realtime)
< 1754485017 346989 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that is only true for single core
< 1754485049 334815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, mathematically you can assume the cores run lockstep, but that would need a processor with very predictable timings
< 1754485052 565808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :as soon as you do hard RT on multicore (and don't pin *everything*) the exact solutions fall apart
< 1754485075 101422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a cluster of 6502s would be able to do it just fine (but the performance would be terrible)
< 1754485112 290559 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and let me tell you: no one in industry is actually doing the academic mathematical approaches to hard realtime. I forget what those diagrams with dots moving around were even called.
< 1754485113 467017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what the correct term for "we have hard time limits but our processor doesn't do things in a predictable time" is – it's somewhere between hard and soft realtime
< 1754485129 884129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: oh, I'm not at all surprised, at least for software approaches
< 1754485134 993201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I bet the people synthesising hardware are doing it though
< 1754485145 755832 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this might not be true in things like flight control software, which has more stringent requirements)
< 1754485245 688564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of the trickiest situations is "things that give an unpredictable performance improvement"
< 1754485249 684130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like branch predictors and L1 caches
< 1754485249 988472 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thankfully, the things I work on (while safety critical in that humans could be in danger) are slow and are safe if they just stop. So the solution is "we have emergency stop buttons everywhere, which cut the actuations electrically)
< 1754485278 823736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the program clearly works better with them involved – but it almost feels like, for hard realtime, you might not be able to rely on them helping at all
< 1754485348 728413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can rely on the OS to not pre-empt you too much, and just hope that the cache and branch predictor act sensibly in that case
< 1754485361 72898 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it depends on your timing requirements. Hard realtime is about predictability. If your requirements is on the order of tens of ms, realtime linux is fine.
< 1754485397 464728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I would be worrying about pathological cases like "all the pointers in the program were allocated with the same values in the middle bits, causing the cache performance to massively degrade"
< 1754485412 730119 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you need µs to single digit ms, you should consider a microcontroller. If you need ns you should look at FPGAs or digital electronics. If you need less than that look at analog electronics
< 1754485446 455271 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a very rough categorisation, but it is pretty accurate I feel.
< 1754485546 208901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the run-up to my PhD, I was working on algorithms designed for use with clockless digital electronics, i.e. they run as fast as the wires transmit information (the limiting factor there is the delay on your pulse reshapers making your pulses have nice square edges)
< 1754485556 131393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although we didn't actually implement it on a platform like that, we used a clock for testing
< 1754485556 718389 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of what I do is on the 10s of ms range. So realtime Linux works fine. And we push the shorter time range things to connected microcontrollers (that do the actual electical IO)
< 1754485621 673446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – I guess my concern is more about what could happen in theory than anything
< 1754485638 936205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :worst-case performance is often an awful lot worse than average-case performance
< 1754485639 518560 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have heard of clockless designs, but I don't really know anything about them. I have a vague memory of someone building a clockless (MIPS?) CPU ages ago as a research projects.
< 1754485663 514407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if we happen to hit the miniscule chance that all our data hashes to the same value and the hash table becomes quadratic, that sort of thing
> 1754485710 486007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162948&oldid=162906 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+119) 10
< 1754485735 648408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia makes a distinction between hard real-time (where a deadline miss is completely unacceptable) and firm real-time (where it's just really bad and you want to minimize the probability, but where if the probability is low enough you'd prefer to pay the cost of very rare deadline misses rather than the cost of coding to worst-case rather than average-case)
< 1754485802 469070 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: indeed. But the things we control are all *big* hydraulics. And the inertia in that dwarfs anything else in the system. Now, if you were controlling an agile robot (Boston dynamics sort of thing) that would be a different matter, you would still have a linux system doing the high level planning, but actual PID loops wound be done in microcontrollers. And we do some of that too. Just less of it than most.
< 1754485852 673285 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I would put things like live sound processing into "firm real-time". You don't want an audio glitch during your rock concert. But no one will die from it.
< 1754485855 83181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that if you have a safe default action (e.g. stopping) you can use that as an automatic reaction to an imminent deadline miss
< 1754485865 869399 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1
< 1754485870 711985 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal's presence reminded me that fungot had probably been offline for, like, months at this point.
< 1754485871 61683 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the debugger?' navigate stack frames with c-p/ c-n.
< 1754485881 747167 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hi
< 1754485886 425406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, an Emacs controls debugger
< 1754485901 648790 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure it's just an Emacs frontend to GDB or something.
< 1754485904 396906 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I guess I have pictures from my road trip? I haven't uploaded anything. I don't even know where I would upload things these days
< 1754485952 458677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I consider audio to be soft real-time, the consequences of glitches are minor by comparison with what they could be in other cases
< 1754485955 28654 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :spent a week sleeping in my car or in a tent while going all over southern Sweden
< 1754485977 29369 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah I didn't realise they had three categories on wikipedia
< 1754485979 161089 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I self-host an instance of https://piwigo.org/ because (a subset of) our relatives generally seem to be interested in what's up, and that's an easy way to make it so. It's not great.
< 1754486008 804332 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firm realtime is more "glitches cost us a serious amount of money, but if the probability is low enough that's still cheaper than the cost of coding to the worst case"
> 1754486013 801290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dotcomma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162949&oldid=140481 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+105) 10
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< 1754486036 685947 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but in safety critical design there are different levels depending on how bad the consequences could be. Which is sort of separate from the whole realtime vs not. Two different axes I feel like.
< 1754486051 884964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and hard realtime is for when that tradeoff *Isn't* worth it, e.g. pacemakers and the like
< 1754486054 97424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like: the ABS breaks failing is clearly worse than the engine control unit failing.
< 1754486077 975387 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that is generally reflected in what level of requirements you need to adhere to
< 1754486079 916333 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been a few cases where the wires controlling aeroplane engines have failed
< 1754486090 496202 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :their failsafe state is to keep running continuously, which makes sense when you think about it
< 1754486108 663645 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meaning that after the plane landed they had to wait for it to run out of fuel
< 1754486109 418706 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: even in a plane you have the same thing: auto pilot failing is not as bad as the fly by wire controls failing
< 1754486124 893379 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed
> 1754486124 930341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162951&oldid=162910 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+368) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486149 563558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162952&oldid=162951 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+12) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486211 739258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162953&oldid=162952 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+59) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754486225 620965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162954&oldid=162953 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
< 1754486226 217192 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Airbus's fly by wire system actually has three different states with different implementation complexity
< 1754486232 793082 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :each industry has it's own standards for this, and I have never worked in flight. But as I understand it from what I have heard and read, they have levels A-D where A means "if this fails everyone dies", C is like "some people might get injured" and D is like "loss of monetary value I guess" (approximately, I don't remember the actual exact definitions)
< 1754486251 184886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if something goes wrong (e.g. sensor malfunction) they will switch to a simpler implementation to maximise the chance that the controls are still usable to control the plane
< 1754486282 716405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is interesting because it's the different safety standards thing, but within a single program
< 1754486303 732201 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thanks for that link. I was thinking about immich personally
< 1754486323 75653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having some control authority is more important than having the controls react in a largely controllable way, which is more important than the protections against accidental dangerous inputs from the pilots
< 1754486330 228608 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: do you know if that piwigo has support for viewing panorams other than layed out flat?
< 1754486444 969192 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yep. I believe the car industry have similar things. And since I work on (mobile, albeit very slowly) industrial equipment we have our own standards for safety that we need to adhere to. Though they are considerably less stringent than in flight.
< 1754486483 77301 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh god it is php :(
< 1754486484 563533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stringent standards don't always end up improving safety – the more difficult the standard is to follow, the more likely someone will violate it
< 1754486501 536881 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Vorpal: Not built-in, I don't think, but there were some plugins. I tried one, it sort of worked, but then gave up on it. I haven't done many stitched-up panoramas lately.
< 1754486505 772970 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did say it's not great.
< 1754486506 288307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so more stringent standards likely also need more stringent enforcement, which often nobody is willing to pay for
< 1754486528 610852 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: oh I missed that part, it was line wrapped to the next line
< 1754486596 401608 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I originally ran something called "gallery2", but it went defunct, and Piwigo is what I found to migrate to.
< 1754486605 884402 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the open source db server world is terrible. Postgres is a pain to upgrade (you need to export and re-import all your data, wtf). Mysql/mariadb is well... it was a joke, I don't know if it still is actually.
< 1754486635 896902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I run postgres on my server, it is more of an upgrade pain than anything else there, although still manageable
< 1754486687 182433 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could argue that if exporting and re-importing is a pain, that's just a sign your data recovery solution is sub-par.
< 1754486714 877579 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I do have automated backups, on the file level. I like databases that are compatible with that. Such as SQLite
< 1754486740 902480 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The wiki runs on MariaDB, because (at least at the time) I got the impression that while MediaWiki *could* run on postgres, it really was "natively" more MySQL-ish.
< 1754486743 295725 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I like software that will auto-upgrade their schema when I upgrade the podman container.
< 1754486779 719184 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't want a multi-step upgrade process)
< 1754486794 769202 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found https://github.com/meichthys/foss_photo_libraries/tree/main a while ago, seemed like a good comparison.
< 1754486880 82439 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've also somewhat recently set up MariaDB's replication thing, so instead of just weekly backups, there's a copy of the wiki that's just in the order of seconds out of date. (Well, for everything that's in the database. Some file uploads younger than a week might get lost.)
< 1754486944 670027 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I only have one piece of software using postgres these days: miniflux (RSS reader). Everything else uses sqlite for the most part.
< 1754486997 260577 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :the key thing is, I can take a btrfs snapshot and backup that.
< 1754487438 547433 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754488642 747762 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1754489995 612109 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :" [rust] and when you aren't using the standard & and &mut, existing libraries don't work very well" => how much is this only because the built-in & and &mut reference types get special treatment for the orphan impl rule. As in `impl C for T` is allowed only if either the trait C or the top level type constructor of the implementing type T
< 1754489996 112432 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is defined in the same crate, but if the implementing type is &B or &mut B then it's enough for the top-level type constructor of B to be defined in the same crate.
< 1754490028 493810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet
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< 1754490065 28848 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is more that functions return normal Rust references and you can't turn those into your own sorts of references (and the other problem is that nothing other than &mut can be reborrowed correctly)
< 1754490080 837051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, for mutable references, it isn't a problem for shared references, even custom ones
< 1754490179 145298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate
> 1754490576 921854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162955 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+429) 10A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground
< 1754490768 747894 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
> 1754491094 119694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162956&oldid=162955 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+286) 10/* Uninme Lang */
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< 1754492851 470720 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re bird sociology, a problem in our discussion here is that "bird name" means something like three different things that have subtle semantic differences, and I don't know how best to call each one. I'll have to re-read the bird book to make sure I understand exactly how this works.
< 1754492932 818499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1754493036 942297 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :One thing you may call "bird name" is for our purposes effectively synonymous with "bird". To evaluate a bird application xy, you have to say this kind of name of the bird y to the bird x, and bird x replies with the name of xy. Bird sociologists (probably each of the ones that we meet in the book, but at least one definitely) can translate between
< 1754493037 442630 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :bird name and bird both ways: if he sees a bird he will know what its name is, and if he learns the name of a bird (because a bird says it as a reply to the application) then there is a bird with that name in the forest and the bird sociologist can always find one (though it may take a long time).
< 1754493082 27656 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :We never find out the name in this sense of any bird in the book, and the narrator might not even know how to represent them in writing.
< 1754493235 560953 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second thing that you may call "bird name" are the descriptions like "kestrel", "mockingbird", "identity bird" etc. These are defined by some property, usually some equation of two bird expressions with bird application, in some universal quantifiers over bird-valued variables.
< 1754493280 5484 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The third is the capital letters like K and S that are used to name a bird with such a property in equations written in short form.
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> 1754493539 936452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SUB14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162957&oldid=88041 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (-7) 10/* Examples */
< 1754493578 185420 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I understand correctly, there are at least three difficulties here. One is that the second kind of bird name isn't unique, there could be multiple birds with different names that are kestrels or whatever S is called. This can happen even for identity birds, even though their equation is so constraining that any two identity birds must give the
< 1754493578 686077 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same answer if you ask them the same question. Note that most properties aren't so constraining, you could have two different K combinators K_1 and K_2 such that for some x, K_1 x != K_2 x. all they have to satisfy is that for every x and y, K_1 x y = K_2 x y = x. And some named properties are even more free than that.
< 1754493851 36221 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754493869 840191 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second problem is that it's possible that two birds are the same combinator, they always give the same answer for any question, but not only they have different names, but some non-combinator birds can distinguish between them, even though this would be impossible in the pure lambda calculus bird. You could have two identity birds I_♀︎ and
< 1754493870 339978 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I_♂︎, then for every bird x, I_♀︎ x = I_♂︎ x = x. But there could be a sexer bird s such that s I_♀︎ = K but s I_♂︎ = K I.
< 1754493916 416413 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or two birds could differ not just by their name but in other properties that are mentioned in a few chapters of a bird books, like on which days they sing.
< 1754493940 908444 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Singing is unrelated to the replies they give to an application, to be clear.)
< 1754494148 204325 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the third problem, and I think this is the only one that the book directly brings up, is that some birds might not be combinators not just because they examine birds in other ways than what they compute, but because they allow you to compute something that a Turing-machine can't. There could be a bird h that solves the halting problem of Turing
< 1754494148 705094 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :machines (not of all birds, that would be impossible because of diagonalization), eg. for any encoded Turing-machine x, h x = K if x halts, h x = KI if x does not halt. Around the last chapter the bird sociologist said that there's a rumor that such a powerful bird exists in a faraway forest, but he does not know if that rumor is true.
< 1754494277 852782 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, Vorpal: the discussion about different degrees of realtime is interesting, I should try to say a few things about it later, in relation to my current job. I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those.
< 1754494640 17517 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: wib_jonas
< 1754494875 874995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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> 1754496728 999625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162958&oldid=162945 5* 03Thomas 5* (+108) 10
> 1754496755 283213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162959&oldid=162958 5* 03Thomas 5* (+9) 10
> 1754496794 129650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162960&oldid=162959 5* 03Thomas 5* (-2) 10
> 1754497528 932779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162961&oldid=157921 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+795) 10
> 1754498096 374636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162962&oldid=162961 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1) 10
> 1754498971 543450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162963 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+418) 10Created page with "MIG or Mission: Impossible graphs in a language that runs solely on a graph Here's the definition: In MIG each line consists of a stack of values x_1,x_2,...,x_n. When the line is run put the first value at the bottom of the stack then go to the corresponding
> 1754499030 485233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162964&oldid=162963 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+64) 10
> 1754499050 53040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162965&oldid=162964 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+27) 10
> 1754499141 701313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162966&oldid=162965 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+57) 10
< 1754499233 965328 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: "I don't do any of the parts that are even close to real time, but I at least interact with co-workers who do, and the non-realtime programs that I work on communicates with those." <-- depending on how, you need to be careful so the realtime program doesn't end up waiting on the non-realtime program causing a priority inversion.
< 1754499281 203743 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs : wib_jonas: actually I haven't found much breakage from the missing #[fundamental] yet <-- I would expect the lack of automatic reborrowing of User defined &mut would be the killer
< 1754499309 461049 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs : but if you define a reference type yourself, you get to declare traits on it, even without #[fundamental], because you are mentioning something that is defined in the same crate <-- it would be a problem for downstream traits using your reference though
> 1754499424 644559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162967&oldid=162966 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+110) 10
< 1754499450 241963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: say I have a combinator ! defined as ! a b c d = (a a) b (c d)
< 1754499511 816317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then, (! ! j) c d = (! ! j) (c d), so in a sense (! ! j) is the identity combinator, regardless of j
< 1754499537 293716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that when looking for small combinator bases, we need to define whether or not this sort of thing stlil counts as universal (suppose there was no way to produce an identity combinator otherwise)
< 1754499572 907759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that if it doesn't, there's no way to get a universal size 1 basis – if it does, though, it becomes harder to work out the implications
> 1754499605 963397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162968&oldid=162967 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+92) 10
< 1754499682 511056 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it does, though, this trick lets you define K despite having no cancellative combinators
> 1754499708 78286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162969&oldid=162968 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+51) 10
> 1754499716 991138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162970&oldid=162950 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+120) 10
< 1754499985 2347 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is quite interesting: sudo bpftrace -e 'tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execve,tracepoint:syscalls:sys_enter_execveat { printf("%lld s: %s %s\n", nsecs(boot) / (1000 * 1000 * 1000), comm, str(args.filename)); }'
< 1754500004 148257 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it prints the time (since boot) and the command name, for all exec calls
< 1754500032 213218 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it prints the parent and child names
< 1754500052 459289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can see what programs are running, for some definition of "run"
< 1754500053 662042 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found some silly python process that was using system() when it shouldn't that way for example
< 1754500065 879234 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are becoming running, rather than are currently running
< 1754500080 978200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: also, just have that running and launch a new shell, it is very interesting to see how much crap my zshrc apparently contains.
< 1754500125 78425 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it captures ephermal processes that you wouldn't notice otherwise
< 1754500213 707433 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :also apparently when I launch a root shell it runs a whole bunch of more things than when I launch a normal shell. That is very odd, and I should look into that.
< 1754500292 860604 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Good thoughts. The book does emphasize this somewhat, that e.g. a starling is *any* bird S which satisfies S x y z = x z (y z); and birds are characterized by properties rather than species.
< 1754500327 580289 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The book does also have a notion of proper and improper combinators, as well as "order"; the order of a proper combinator is its rank. The idea of improper combinators is to characterize e.g. C K or K I.
< 1754500348 347904 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time.
< 1754500368 562680 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is quite amazing the silly things you can find with something as simple as that
< 1754500419 2156 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, we can use rank to tell. I has rank one, so anything equivalent to it also must have rank one. But (! ! j) has rank two, so it's clearly something different.
< 1754500461 44452 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, why the hell does launching a root shell run flatpak?
< 1754500468 972138 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754500474 538916 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: OK, by that definition, I think a universal basis of size 1 is impossible, because if it's applicative I think that implies it can't implement a rank 1 identity function, and it's hard to see how it could be universal without being applicative
< 1754500515 133815 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Makes sense. That's roughly where I am, too. I won't say that some sort of super-S is impossible, but it does seem like it has to do a *lot* of different things.
< 1754500552 172631 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This would be simpler if there were a super-strict dividing line between affine and duplicative combinators, but there's no reason that a duplicative combinator couldn't have an affine effect after it's been partially applied.
< 1754500586 85801 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Your ! example does a good job of showing that. After the first partial application, the rest of the combinator is affine; linear, even.
< 1754500599 938796 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ZYP: points -24.90, score 5.45, rank 47/47
< 1754500632 439342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the "no rank 1 identity function" is because the leftmost application can't have a variable on the left without evaluating the variable (which the identity function doesn't do), and can't produce the identity function with a variable on the right unless it has the identity function on the left)
< 1754500700 431688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then by induction you can show that you can't produce the identity function unless you had one to start with
< 1754500768 223788 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :flatpak: aha: /etc/profile.d/flatpak.sh
> 1754500877 134868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162971&oldid=162960 5* 03Thomas 5* (+40) 10
< 1754500901 57221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. I didn't get around to actually writing it in the [[combinatory logic]] page, but a complete basis needs some way of bootstrapping application, and curiously neither K nor I have that applicative property.
< 1754500925 999468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, it needs some way to bootstrap application and some way to duplicate data
< 1754500941 515304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those logically go in the same combinator, because duplicating data will involve an application somewhere
< 1754500991 757779 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. M will do just as well as S for that. MBTI (Church's basis) is equivalent to BCSI (the aristocratic basis).
< 1754501033 581213 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still chewing on the revelation that GI is equivalent to BCI. I can't find a source for this prior to Smullyan and suspect that he's the one who proved it first.
< 1754501368 274975 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :last time I looked at this, I decided there were 3×3=9 basic combinators: when compiling an application from lambda calculus to combinators by eliminating variables one at a time, the left and right of the application can each be a) a term that doesn't include the variable you're eliminating, or b) a term that's just a single variable (the one you're eliminating), or c) a term that does include the variable you're eliminating but is rooted at an application
< 1754501376 711883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :three possibilities for the LHS, three for the RHS
< 1754501455 313058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in case c) you have to recursively eliminate the variable
< 1754501494 540922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, K doesn't show up in this scheme (but KI does)
< 1754501509 745849 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.ZYP: points -21.33, score 7.28, rank 47/47 (--)
< 1754501605 65514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : oh dear god, vscode runs git a lot. And it doesn't cache the path, it tries /usr/local/bin/git, /usr/local/sbin/git, ... etc every single time. ← it's probably just calling execvp, which probably doesn't cache, and might not even be able to without breaking the spec
< 1754501646 18862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bash is able to cache paths of executables, but doesn't unless specifically requested to, in case you install a new executable higher up on the path than one that's been cached
< 1754501649 281972 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, But both bash and zsh are smarter (you can see that with the hash command)
< 1754501662 708268 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think bash does this by default?
< 1754501710 550422 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the zsh setup I use hashes everything in PATH once at startup I believe
< 1754501713 741574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder if inotifying on PATH would be more efficient than rescanning every time
< 1754501722 562334 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :it should be
< 1754501755 540534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the contents of PATH don't usually change much, unless you have . in there
< 1754501806 975211 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :22258 s: systemd /proc/self/fd/16 | /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-executor --deserialize 144 --log-level info --log-target journal-or-kmsg <-- interesting, systemd apparently opens the binary first then execs the path under /proc. For some reason.
< 1754501885 93878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that used to be the only safe way to prevent TOCTOU
< 1754501894 491788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to do some checks on a file before operating on it
< 1754501938 893310 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but this is a root program executing another root owned program as root. My guess is that this is to protect against upgrades. E.g. if I install a new version of systemd it wants to keep executing the old version of this helper binary
< 1754501951 867130 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably to protect against unstable API breaking things
< 1754501967 803756 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what about shared libraries? Won't help with that
< 1754501973 285512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this was notably famous with setuid shell scripts – some OSes checked to see if the file was setuid, then escalated and passed the file to the shell, but that was exploitable by swapping out a component of its path after the check but before the root shell started)
< 1754502026 212242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays you can use openat and friends, which is a little more elegant
< 1754502033 591960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to protect against the same exploit
< 1754502046 732734 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :openat doesn't help with exec though?
< 1754502057 297968 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is no execfd()
< 1754502057 651428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :execat can execute from an open FD
< 1754502065 763036 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, execveat
< 1754502065 812274 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh there is?
< 1754502149 258925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like the rule is to pass an empty string as the filename, the file's FD where you would normally put the directory FD, and AT_EMPTY_PATH in the flags
< 1754502151 184656 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, looking at the bird book, the list in the appendix says Txy = yx, which is the combinator that ais523 mentioned. The book also uses this a lot, and in http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html this is the very first named combinator, called swap. I will have to add it to the tables.
< 1754502208 695996 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: anyway, bpftrace is really cool. Well worth playing around with and seeing what is going on on your system. Plus very useful skill to have for when you need to use it in an actual emergency.
< 1754502222 947962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the second-most used combinator in my codebase, after B
< 1754502225 401509 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can collect stacks, make histograms, etc
< 1754502249 266837 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's the underload ~ operator, right?
< 1754502275 979400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's more like ~^
< 1754502331 873128 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1754502335 331461 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is also very commonly used in Underload, sufficiently so that I have it abbreviated to ` in my notes)
< 1754502337 795866 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm getting confused here
< 1754502385 338986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Underload/combinator correspondence is inherently confusing, I think
< 1754502389 897595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least, I have trouble following it
< 1754502451 877789 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why I made a table at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Mlatu#Relation_to_Underload , and now I'll have to add an extra column to it with the one-letter names from the bird book
< 1754502489 177350 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and probably add a few rows too
< 1754502529 760799 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably whichever of T, B, C, M, W aren't in there
< 1754502541 951732 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and S too I guess
< 1754502544 689515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I mean it doesn't quite translate directly
< 1754502597 69180 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? but all lambda calculus expressions translate to Underload, it's that some underload expressions don't translate to combinators
< 1754502598 627970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because after running a command you have to pass control to the next command in the program, not the top of the stack
< 1754502616 879782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes but that's a *different* translation
< 1754502641 98555 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat
< 1754502708 478190 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'm too tired to figure this out now
< 1754502878 784877 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, b_jonas: What's happening is that we can interpret the combinators in ETCC instead of ETCS; instead of functions on values from sets, they're functors on objects from categories! And then there is often more than one category-like composition structure lurking in the typical programming environment.
< 1754502920 775426 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I debated hacking out a section in [[combinatory logic]] for this, but was psychically blocked by the social stigma of category theory. Maybe I'll make a side page.
< 1754503021 120719 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still don't fully understand it myself. e.g. we have to make I pull double duty; it designates both identity arrows (which each are equivalent to an object) and identity endofunctors (which are equivalent to a category).
< 1754503035 313015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the bird book talks a lot about bird properties defined by an equation where the bird appears in both sides. only one of these is mentioned in the appendix, Theta, but I think Unlambda v is mentioned somewhere, and a whole theorem of who to find a bird for any such equation. and I think these equations are not only satisfied by multiple birds, but also by multiple different combinators.
> 1754503053 849106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GnomeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162972&oldid=162971 5* 03Thomas 5* (+7) 10
< 1754503759 877040 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on... https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#Table_of_combinators does not list W
> 1754503828 403744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162973&oldid=162970 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-119) 10
< 1754504207 308645 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754504353 326410 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Ah nuts, I knew I'd miss one. Ping me and I'll do it; otherwise, I won't step on your toes.
< 1754505583 308894 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I won't add it becuase I don't know the english names like "kestrel"
< 1754505662 456612 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the translated names are usually close to the originals, as in they mean a similar category of real-world bird animals, but animal names are fuzzy and there's no one-to-one mapping between them in different languages, so I won't try to backtranslate it
< 1754505717 805624 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this case my guess is "warbler" becuase of the names for W* and W** and W[1] listed, but you should actually check that in the book
< 1754505882 835596 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of these bird names I know of only from the bird book, not from real world bird animals
> 1754505911 398401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162974&oldid=162911 5* 03Corbin 5* (+68) 10/* Table of combinators */ Add W.
< 1754505959 117642 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the table in my book lists W, W', W^*, W^{**}, but no W_1 or W_2, at least not under that name
< 1754505975 348902 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: No worries! I am happy to double-check when I happen to have the corresponding dead-tree on my shelf. Ping me again if I missed another one.
< 1754506125 66794 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideally a table like this should give both a lambda expression style definition like `W x y = x y y`, which is what's in the table in the book, and a combinator expression from other combinators, like W = S S (S K)
< 1754506147 203941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course the first one isn't possible for all birds
< 1754506193 976721 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it should be possible to compute the lambda calculus expressions automatically from the definitions in the table with a lambda calculus evaluator
< 1754506217 792674 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bird names never translate well. There is a bird that visits my front yard every morning. In Lojban, it's called {blanykorvo}, roughly "blue crow". In American English, it's called "California scrub jay".
< 1754506257 878295 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my problem is with "kestrel", which is apparently in the name of some falons but it's not clear if it's a meaningful group
< 1754506284 410439 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...I mean, {blanykorvrkalyfyrniaskrybdjei} is legal fu'ivla, but that's not how I call to them in the morning.
< 1754506314 594026 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but fortunately the book doesn't use "falcon" as a bird name
< 1754506340 796031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ha, no, I think "kestrel" is a vibe, probably from a fairly old word. Definitely not a clade.
> 1754506355 996458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162975&oldid=162700 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+9) 10
< 1754506393 401277 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Oh, that's apparently an American view, because the American kestrel is not a true kestrel. True kestrels have evidence for a clade. Very cool, TIL.
> 1754506561 495889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162976 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+123) 10Created page with "Primal is a esolang that works using only two accumulators and is turing complete (unless I'm missing something) Commands:"
< 1754506706 336456 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the good thing is that there are only like 10_000 bird species, less if you exclude Madagascar, New Zealand, Australia, and various isolated islands, and there probably aren't many more to discover, so there's a bound for how bad the names can become. if you tried to name something of arthropods then you'd run into an ever-growing changing mess of horrible confusing vernacular names. even naming objects
< 1754506712 706129 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from fish would be much worse than birds.
< 1754507006 646349 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Smullyan's names also include "thrush" and "bluebird", of which "bluebird" is apparently a group of thrushes in the New World only
< 1754507019 573019 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/thrushes in/thrushes living in/
> 1754507070 900339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162977&oldid=162976 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+878) 10
< 1754507159 552807 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lojban only has edible birds, not singing birds. It has duck, goose, chicken, turkey.
> 1754507183 323019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162978&oldid=162977 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+143) 10
> 1754507266 461253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Primal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162979&oldid=162978 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+133) 10
< 1754507268 790822 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :real world falcons and eagles are neither edible nor singing
> 1754507285 931966 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162980&oldid=162975 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+12) 10
< 1754507293 701044 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I have to say real world, because I don't claim that falcons in the bird book don't sing)
< 1754507589 154357 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a bird name for KI ?
> 1754507643 272470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162981&oldid=162969 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+46) 10
> 1754507780 19954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162982&oldid=162981 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+77) 10
< 1754507780 82286 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754507796 687991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162983&oldid=162982 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1) 10
< 1754507949 110224 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think K I actually shows up. The sections that introduce K and I are adjacent and there's lots of exercises involving how they are related to fundamental properties, but I didn't see the formation of K I in there.
< 1754508048 724169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( Lertsek )
< 1754508247 613476 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get the feeling that Smullyan didn't want to name the constant birds. He talked about how they can become constant, using properties like "fixation" and "egocentrism" that I'm not super-comfortable using as-is.
< 1754508477 146544 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, he more-or-less defines a kestrel as any combinator K s.t. K x is fixated on x, which merely means that (K x) y = x; in today's language, we say that K x y is constantly x, which is just an unhelpfully-long explanation of that = sign.
> 1754508911 430509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162984 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+882) 10Created page with "MIG+ is a version of MIG with a shared variable Instead of going to the next command in the stack, they go to a command based on the variable and set the variable to a different value. Notation: MIG+ code looks like this: x_{1,1},y_{1,1},"string_{1,1}":z_
> 1754508942 649943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162985&oldid=162984 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+24) 10
> 1754508964 672670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162986&oldid=162985 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+68) 10
> 1754509053 600947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162987&oldid=162986 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+86) 10
> 1754509195 929483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162988&oldid=162987 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+81) 10
> 1754509212 481359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162989&oldid=162980 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+10) 10
< 1754509424 762072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I see
< 1754510302 395810 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754510462 104946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MIG+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162990&oldid=162988 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+340) 10
> 1754510993 398945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162991 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+347) 10Created page with "Treebrainfuck is a derivative of brainfuck: Changes: Treebrainfuck is a version of brainfuck that instead of taking place on a tape, takes place infinitely far up a infinite tree with an infinite number of branches on each node this variation adds o
> 1754511208 382737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162992&oldid=162991 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+1047) 10
> 1754511309 366479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Treebrainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162993&oldid=162992 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+106) 10
> 1754511399 514090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162994&oldid=162989 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+19) 10
> 1754511489 440513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Arr ow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162995&oldid=162587 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+33) 10
> 1754512495 207787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=162996 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+5487) 10Woohoo
< 1754512512 262283 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1754513804 63017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1754513805 874014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1754515957 638784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162997&oldid=162954 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+443) 10/* Syntax */
< 1754516337 918959 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:788c:1b3f:625a:cce3 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754516521 774844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162998&oldid=162997 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-59) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754519289 467907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=162999&oldid=162998 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+522) 10/* #pl - Plugging in expressions */
> 1754519362 89635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163000&oldid=162999 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+23) 10/* Commands */
> 1754519418 738045 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163001&oldid=163000 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-40) 10/* Deduction */
< 1754519421 917046 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754523968 251614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163002&oldid=163001 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+856) 10
> 1754523991 212403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163003&oldid=163002 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+4) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754524010 474884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163004&oldid=163003 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+5) 10/* #id - More plugging in */
> 1754524420 588182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163005&oldid=163004 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+13) 10/* #in - Induction */
> 1754524468 461492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163006 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+133) 10Created page with "conlang ~~~~"
> 1754525469 742042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163007&oldid=163005 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (+0) 10/* Deduction */
> 1754525482 609162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Junkshipp/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163008&oldid=163007 5* 03Junkshipp 5* (-2) 10/* Deduction */
< 1754526067 507207 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1754526253 101003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163009&oldid=162973 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+214) 10
> 1754528659 417142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163010&oldid=163009 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-214) 10
< 1754537950 722320 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python golfing contest: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
> 1754538264 479508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163011&oldid=162996 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+531) 10Instructions Yay
> 1754538300 144388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163012&oldid=163011 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1) 10/* SARCASM Instruction Set */
< 1754539378 354048 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1754539511 56278 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-52-143.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1754539750 526934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163013&oldid=163012 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+324) 10
> 1754540700 913289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163014&oldid=163013 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+549) 10user input in the form of a single digit
> 1754540939 481396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163015&oldid=163014 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+4) 10/* SARCASM Instruction Set */
> 1754541202 758386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163016&oldid=163015 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+233) 10Infobox also added credit for me to making it.
> 1754541248 859290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163017&oldid=163016 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+7) 10Spacing
> 1754541655 353996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163018&oldid=163017 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1) 10s. That's all for tonight i think.
< 1754547016 840700 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754548620 628224 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754549744 846422 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1754553620 814172 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754554226 847581 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
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< 1754554395 976792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp *%eax
< 1754554398 853292 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
< 1754554414 674659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp %eax
< 1754554416 537085 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `jmp'
< 1754554419 916353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp %rax
< 1754554421 728642 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Warning: indirect jmp without `*' \ ff e0: jmpq *%rax
< 1754554425 273177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding jmp *%rax
< 1754554427 144159 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ff e0: jmpq *%rax
< 1754554718 549909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rip, %rax), %rcx
< 1754554720 892585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rip,%rax)' is not a valid base/index expression
< 1754554734 596930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax), %rcx
< 1754554737 255906 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8b 8c 05 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,1),%rcx \ 00
< 1754554743 896688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %eax), %rcx
< 1754554745 272385 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: `0x1234(%rbp,%eax)' is not a valid base/index expression
< 1754554784 160039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding mov 0x1234(%rbp, %rax, 8), %rcx
< 1754554786 731851 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8b 8c c5 34 12 00: mov 0x1234(%rbp,%rax,8),%rcx \ 00
< 1754554830 26321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding lea 0x1234(%rip), %rbp
< 1754554833 326014 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :48 8d 2d 34 12 00 00: lea 0x1234(%rip),%rbp # 0x123b
< 1754557504 880698 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The concise implementations produced by top teams are likely to serve as canonical reference solutions for this seminal dataset."
< 1754557520 997186 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O (Are we _sure_ we want AI systems to generate golfed code?)
< 1754557609 479234 :fizzie!irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There seems to be an (unwarranted?) assumption that the shortest possible solution will naturally "emphasiz[e] robustness and simplicity".
< 1754559541 233478 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
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< 1754561006 523084 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754561160 421274 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1754563621 65584 :amby!~ambylastn@ward-15-b2-v4wan-167229-cust809.vm18.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1754565050 142711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: in my experience, golfed code emphasizes algorithms with fewer and simpler steps over robust and performant algorithms
< 1754565074 603236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular, frequently the shortest way to write something is to loop over all possible outputs and check to see whether each one is correct
< 1754565190 623774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the shortest implementation of integer square root I can think of involves checking all numbers from n to 0 downwards until you find one whose square is less than or equal to n, for example
< 1754565200 974133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…but this is one of the worst possible algorithms you could be using in practice
< 1754565230 614486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is assuming that you don't have a builtin, e.g. because you're implementing the builtin)
< 1754565400 301680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, now I'm wondering whether implementing it in terms of float sqrt would be faster, the issue is dealing with potential rounding errors but maybe there's some terse way to correct for that
< 1754565424 156778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, terser, not faster
< 1754565568 286927 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+deb11u1 - https://znc.in
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< 1754565675 865183 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
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< 1754565754 550771 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
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< 1754567489 520453 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It might be secretly a contest to make a golfing AI--each of the 400 functions is scored by itself, so they have to be golfed separately even if they have similar subprograms
< 1754567563 575489 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's also uncertain whether they intended the contest to be about this)
< 1754567574 146961 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754567592 219757 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1754568088 741869 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@user/Vorpal QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
< 1754568131 474378 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? it
< 1754568136 201552 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would have been certainly so, but `8ball refused to coöperate.
< 1754568236 469820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, found the link above.
< 1754568389 202141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :400 tasks
< 1754568455 264161 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah this is clearly angling for ML
< 1754568667 274147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can't even access the problems without entering a contract with them.
< 1754569235 242243 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754569506 749512 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :[https://web.libera.chat] wib_jonas
< 1754569705 188822 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, if you have a floating point type that has a significand at least a few bits larger than the integer input (eg. 32-bit integer and 64-bit double) then I think you can covert to float, add 0.5, take square root, then convert to integer rounding towards zero or down. this is very terse in many languages like C because the type
< 1754569705 689408 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :conversions can often by implicit.
< 1754569868 430906 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for that golf contest, hey look, https://rosettacode.org website is accessible again, great
< 1754569980 696285 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I was mostly thinking about the case where you don't have a big enough float type
< 1754569989 284613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can 64-bit floats let you square-root 64-bit integers?
< 1754570014 28686 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that's possible
< 1754570014 809443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm really just interested in how varied the problems are... is it all conversions from some input image into and output image? is there text processing too? are there any actual algorithms or just input/output pairs?
< 1754570031 474691 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it might be, but it won't be as golfy
< 1754570083 390788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(So not interested in actually solving any of them.)
< 1754570108 204877 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you'd need a few trial squaring after you get an approxiate square root using the floating-point number
< 1754570295 310179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
< 1754570303 67139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let x = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 + 1; y = realToFrac $ (2^32 - 1)^2 - 1 in x == y
< 1754570304 646303 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : True
< 1754570355 180624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this kind of thing makes it rather unlikely)
> 1754570794 672281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163019&oldid=162956 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+504) 10/* xixixixixi Lang */
> 1754570858 91036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163020&oldid=163006 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+120) 10
< 1754570938 838051 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the ARC problems are all image-to-image (or grids of integers 0-9, as there are only 10 "colours") but each problem has its own implicit rules shown by the example pairs, they're kind of like riddles
< 1754570958 858278 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: a 64-bit float has a 53-bit mantissa so it can represent every int n with error less than sqrt(n)/2, so the float sqrt should work
< 1754571043 688288 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: thanks
< 1754571114 445710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the float square root should get you within 1 of the desired answer
< 1754571195 598478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think you'll have to square and test (or something eqivalent) once to find the final answer.
< 1754572067 699983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re: that arcprize codegolfing, I think I understand why they want it – the shortest description of the problem is likely the one that generalises best
< 1754572083 420795 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the inefficient brute-force solution is actually the desirable one, here
< 1754572176 693676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :evaluating that sort of solution might be hard, though
> 1754572186 331411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163021&oldid=163019 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+490) 10
< 1754572569 267614 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh the contest design is fine for what it is. But it doesn't appeal to me. And I do believe that they should give you a small but representative sample set of tasks before you sign up formally.
< 1754572758 18251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Context matters. This could be an ICFP programming contest and I'd probably feel a bit different about it then.
> 1754573013 648433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163022&oldid=162798 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+34) 10
< 1754573592 88865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are plenty of public arcprize tasks
< 1754573621 653016 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, there has to be a list of tasks that they're trying very hard to not allow into AI training data, as it would defeat their purpose
< 1754574201 5420 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: wait, what is this ARC image problems thing? that sounds very interesting, I was thinking there should be image to image golf problems, and this may or may not be similar
> 1754574292 432761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163023&oldid=163021 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+320) 10
< 1754574402 702334 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it may be worth to check what the blue book says about integer square root. I think it talks about how to compute it, but I don't recall if floats are involved. b_jonas may check it at home where I have the book on my shelf – it's too far to reach from wib_jonas
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> 1754574805 750519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163024&oldid=163023 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+173) 10/* Whats the shape of the earth? */
< 1754575134 97897 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: Google has turned the ARC AI problem set into, I suppose you could think of these as 400 image golf problems now: https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025
< 1754575212 495441 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're just using the 2024 training problems for this contest, which are already public
< 1754575327 5032 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hopefully they're creating additional private tests for these though, to prevent hardcoding
< 1754575457 844877 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The problems can be browsed on the website: https://arcprize.org/play?task=007bbfb7)
< 1754575627 620346 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so arcprize has four sets: an easy and difficult public set, a difficult mostly-private set (has been sent over LLM APIs but not published online), and a difficult truly-private set (which only interacts with programs running on their own hardware, so they can prevent them exfiltrating details)
< 1754575667 345378 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1754575730 215917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it crossed my mind, while I was AFK, that maybe generating small esoprograms and using them to produce output would be an interesting way to produce patterns that aren't biased by human experience
> 1754575750 261394 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163025&oldid=163018 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+38) 10Python implment
< 1754575765 115253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you would probably need some sort of recursive RLE step to make exponentially growing patterns small enough for humans to grasp
< 1754575823 451117 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the scoring described somewhere?
< 1754575826 215200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem would be a "continue the pattern" type of problem
< 1754575846 463878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wib_jonas: I picked it up from articles on their blog, it's % of problems for which a correct answer is submitted
< 1754575856 465153 :wib_jonas!~wib_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1754575857 767896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably on the first try
< 1754576463 769021 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1754576562 325358 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Exponentially growing outputs might be a bit too unnatural, and unphysical
< 1754576644 643571 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the outputs are constrained to a spatial grid, that reminds me of MJ (a successor to the WFC method) -- https://github.com/mxgmn/MarkovJunior
< 1754576677 909577 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The example programs are quite short, and chosen for human interest but some randomly sampled programs might behave differently
< 1754576718 88748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, we could use a wrapping memory space
< 1754576720 804156 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alternatively you could project an exponential output to a space that can contain it, like a hyperbolic plane
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< 1754589458 194719 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I checked the blue book. it does talk about integer square root, but not about how to compute it using floating point square root
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> 1754597900 614932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SJBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163057&oldid=163056 5* 03A() 5* (-1) 10
> 1754598001 103419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SJBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163058&oldid=163057 5* 03A() 5* (+51) 10
> 1754598022 321555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SJBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163059&oldid=163058 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10
> 1754598036 217759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SJBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163060&oldid=163059 5* 03A() 5* (-23) 10
> 1754598230 551419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163061&oldid=160455 5* 03A() 5* (+26) 10/* Esolangs */
> 1754598707 810726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite noise automata14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163062&oldid=157847 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-2793) 10Deleted it for a reason, the updated page is on Noise Automata, whoever wants this page can take it.
> 1754598897 897044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163063&oldid=159536 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+54) 10sarcasm
> 1754600403 663691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163064 5* 03A() 5* (+789) 10Created page with "[[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
< 1754600896 258879 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1754601910 61283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Python nerd1235 5* 10New user account
> 1754603475 504987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163065&oldid=150706 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+175) 10/* Where is Python 3 */
> 1754604492 627517 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163066&oldid=162785 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+134) 10
> 1754604617 65302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163067&oldid=158115 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+6) 10br tag
> 1754604820 579909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Stubnoinfo14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163068&oldid=161700 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10aaa
> 1754604870 123012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Burn14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163069&oldid=163067 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10oops, I used the nowiki tag for the template
> 1754613035 251775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163070&oldid=162768 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+129) 10
> 1754613195 326249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163071&oldid=163066 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+110) 10
> 1754613233 486124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163072&oldid=163071 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+67) 10
> 1754613776 547868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163073&oldid=163072 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-79) 10
> 1754613928 811899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163074&oldid=163020 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+158) 10
> 1754614091 739544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StegFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163075&oldid=113071 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10Correcting a typo
> 1754614224 204921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DWIM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163076&oldid=131444 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+342) 10
< 1754617966 970612 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
> 1754619777 185234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Infinite noise automata14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163077 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+3) 10Created page with "???"
> 1754626582 830096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minsky machine busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163078&oldid=162962 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+100) 10
< 1754626584 157281 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1754627284 863534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163079&oldid=163074 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+139) 10
> 1754627407 30569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/A cubic box full of dried miscellaneous rock pieces form a beach for user's own playground14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163080&oldid=163031 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-2) 10/* Whats the shape of the earth? */
< 1754631786 977862 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754632187 454890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitChanger Busy beaver14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163081&oldid=160824 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+75) 10
< 1754634022 402111 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1754634230 447414 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1754634523 755557 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1754635437 46446 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1754635743 318957 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754635975 669005 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1754637306 871515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163082&oldid=163025 5* 03WinslowJosiah 5* (+499) 10Add Truth-machine
< 1754637936 622169 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1754645338 897882 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1754648522 744133 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1754650638 896573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163083&oldid=162710 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+18) 10
> 1754650914 67765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dhzb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163084&oldid=163083 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+12) 10
> 1754651421 279196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Beam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163085&oldid=58600 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+289) 10/* Example programs */ "Hello, world!" program
> 1754651484 261264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:BrainFuckGirl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163086&oldid=161179 5* 03BrainFuckGirl 5* (+10) 10/* Code */
< 1754652154 867031 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1754652196 394235 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1754654500 888546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163087 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+128) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} cirbe is an esolang that uses the following 16 unicode characters: "
< 1754654891 92296 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1754655492 577352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL, the top entries on https://www.kaggle.com/competitions/google-code-golf-2025/leaderboard are all... close to the maximum value representable by an IEEE double
< 1754655503 14236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :something went wrong ;-)
< 1754657383 872429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1754660001 253756 :amby!~ambylastn@2a00:23c5:ce05:7801:7fa8:653d:2944:84b0 JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1754661165 850182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163088&oldid=162926 5* 03A() 5* (+17) 10/* W */
< 1754661503 973963 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:f126:15c3:35a5:81ac:187c JOIN #esolangs Cale :realname
> 1754661759 723647 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163089&oldid=163064 5* 03A() 5* (+234) 10
> 1754661828 509467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163090&oldid=163089 5* 03A() 5* (-1) 10
> 1754661992 388126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163091&oldid=163090 5* 03A() 5* (+34) 10/* Infinte loop */
> 1754662048 153977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163092&oldid=163091 5* 03A() 5* (+52) 10/* Hello World */
> 1754662297 99400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163093&oldid=163061 5* 03A() 5* (+160) 10
< 1754662490 867087 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1754662778 188398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163094&oldid=163092 5* 03A() 5* (+24) 10/* Programs */
> 1754662842 311535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163095&oldid=163094 5* 03A() 5* (+60) 10/* Programs */
> 1754663051 537841 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163096&oldid=162621 5* 03A() 5* (+225) 10/* Implementations */
> 1754663464 564488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163097&oldid=163088 5* 03A() 5* (+11) 10/* S */
> 1754664235 448668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163098&oldid=163087 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+123) 10
> 1754664282 353991 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163099&oldid=163098 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+6) 10
> 1754665194 154134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163100&oldid=163099 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+547) 10
> 1754666227 106855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163101&oldid=163100 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+293) 10
> 1754666339 286506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163102&oldid=163101 5* 03Dhzb 5* (-5) 10
< 1754667114 181495 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754667128 268274 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net JOIN #esolangs * :sprout
> 1754667418 151796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163103&oldid=163102 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+320) 10
> 1754667736 415541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cirbe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163104&oldid=163103 5* 03Dhzb 5* (+30) 10
> 1754670385 401098 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ello 5* 10New user account
> 1754670637 191908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163105&oldid=163029 5* 03Ello 5* (+210) 10
> 1754671907 69431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SARCASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163106&oldid=163082 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+15) 10Add Jumping
< 1754674919 346973 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1754676014 585704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073DGrid14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163107 5* 03A() 5* (+1259) 10Created page with "[[3DGrid]] uses a 10 by 10 by 10 3d grid of numbers as a program. [[User:A()]] made it. ==Commands== 00 - nop 01 - move forwards 02 - move backwards 03 - move left 04 - move right 05 - move up 06 - move down 07 - Intersection 08 - make new Pointer, and make it move
< 1754676541 261919 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:fc99:7338:6c62:cab JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1754677251 572232 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1754677788 668539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163108 5* 03Ello 5* (+2743) 10Created page with "Lime Squeezer is an esoteric programming language created by Ello, me :D ==Basic Syntax== Lime Squeezer uses 8-bit op-codes, has 2 8-bit stacks(both have a 16 kilobyte limit) and is run from bottom up, also, any operands, are written below(or in this case: above) t
> 1754678080 556867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163109&oldid=163108 5* 03Ello 5* (+27) 10
> 1754679481 50761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163110&oldid=163109 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754679508 400552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lime Squeezer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163111&oldid=163110 5* 03Ello 5* (+0) 10
> 1754680385 449798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=163112 5* 03Ello 5* (+4091) 10Created page with "this page is a russian translation of [[Lime Squeezer]] done by Ello, me again :D i did this cuz i am russian and want russian people to know about my esolang too :> Ello, :D == == 8- -, 8- (..."
< 1754681154 183672 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1754681167 44051 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1754682298 797491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FALSE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163113&oldid=146379 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+8) 10/* See also */
> 1754682387 863197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10moved [[02true10]] to [[True (Ractangle)]] over redirect: rebranding the project
> 1754682387 886553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Ractangle 5* 10Ractangle deleted redirect [[02True (Ractangle)10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[true]]"
> 1754682681 386554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163116&oldid=162266 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+2) 10Not specifying a type result in a type used by the return value type of the varible
> 1754683427 709503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07True14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163117&oldid=145361 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+9) 10
> 1754683668 587862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Snakel14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=163118&oldid=163116 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+488) 10/* Errors */