< 1759881687 583734 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1759881854 668515 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT : > 1759882045 524349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03NoWhy 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:NONPLUSSEDinterpreter.png10]]" > 1759882364 460682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165812&oldid=165809 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+65) 10interpreter img > 1759883030 728289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165813&oldid=165808 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+42) 10 > 1759883452 15218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165814&oldid=165813 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+125) 10 > 1759883531 662116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165815 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+357) 10created my userpage > 1759883750 766824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165816&oldid=165815 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+339) 10added editing notes > 1759883766 12336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165817&oldid=165816 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+6) 10formatting > 1759883862 512551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165818&oldid=165814 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+125) 10 > 1759884123 340381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165819&oldid=165818 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+58) 10 < 1759886785 298871 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1759887759 895025 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement < 1759888677 274947 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1759888677 937521 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1759888721 951425 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 NICK :slavfox < 1759888802 171738 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so I was reading your blog post http://ais523.me.uk/blog/logic-of-shared-references.html . my impression is that it's disconnected: specifically the conclusion part is separate from the rest. < 1759888906 492764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the conclusion part explains something that you mentioned in IRC, which is that it would be useful to have a type that's like a shared reference but may actually point to a copy rather than the original data. that much makes sense, though there are a lot more details that have to be worked out. < 1759889027 317219 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the rest of the blog post claims that pirating may be able to solve some other problems, and that part I don't understand at all. you do make at least a very weak case on why pirating might be interesting to explore, but the blog post doesn't manage to explain why pirating can solve the hard problems that you mention and is still implementable with sound rules. < 1759889283 91221 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now as for a few specific bits of the text. you say "What about packed types whose fields aren't Copy?" and those could be useful, but the typical useful case is a packed type similar to the one you mention but with a mutable reference, and I don't think pirating would help there, because if I only have pirate access to such a structure then all I'd be able to do with the mutable reference is shared < 1759889289 95499 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :borrow it, at which point the field not being Copy isn't an obstacle. so I'd like to see a better example for why packed type whose fields aren't Copy are relevant here. < 1759889305 698970 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also elsewhere you mention you could hypothetically want " < 1759889406 854356 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the {:?} format specifier Dereffed as many times as possible before using the Debug implementation" in a modified formatting language, but I believe "Dereffed as many times as possible" is something you absolutely aren't allowed to do in Rust because of trait consistency issues, you can't allow code to behave in a different valid way when something isn't a member of a trait such as not Deref. this is < 1759889412 861122 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something you can do in C++, but not in Rust, and that is by design. > 1759889608 624028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/Syntagma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165820&oldid=144116 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-8) 10/* Syntax */ < 1759889775 141729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this doesn't mean that rust pirating can't make sense, only that the blog post failed to explain what rules it would have > 1759889970 72509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165821&oldid=143973 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+183) 10 > 1759891115 480928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Salpynx 5* 10moved [[02User:Salpynx/Syntagma10]] to [[User:Syntagma]]: moving to mainspace, probably as complete as it is going to get > 1759891188 9983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Salpynx 5* 10moved [[02User:Syntagma10]] to [[Syntagma]]: either I made a mistake, or this form is confusing > 1759892384 84937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntagma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165826&oldid=165824 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+398) 10cats and motivation. Perhaps this is a semi-joke language > 1759892628 771722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntagma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165827&oldid=165826 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+2) 10italics < 1759895704 607832 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought of something else about a operating system, which is that sometimes you might be able to receive a message before it is sent, or send a message when the receiver is not ready, without storing a copy of the message in the kernel, because attempting to access the memory used for I/O will block (depending on the kind of access) until it is ready. < 1759895735 686734 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some cases, it also means that the message can be discarded. < 1759895776 537791 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, if a message it sent but not received yet, then writing to the memory used for output will block but it can be read without blocking. If a message is received but not sent yet, any access to the receiving buffer will block, both reading and writing. < 1759897780 883206 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also thought that memory allocation could be requested from a capability; in this case, the sender will need to have a block of memory already allocated, and when sending it, will give up its own access if it is read/write or will keep its own access if it is read-only, but is allowed to change its own access from read/write to read-only (but not the other way around). < 1759897950 36176 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had also mentioned before, other ideas about computer design and operating system design. < 1759904888 238090 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths > 1759905779 352537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Michael Gao 5* 10New user account < 1759906485 673386 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1759906566 812485 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1759919964 98129 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :'a message is received but not yet send' < 1759919971 266999 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :abandon causality < 1759921084 265263 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi < 1759921999 998955 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that sounds like linux async io < 1759922021 797032 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'm not sure if that works for sending messages rather than only for regular files < 1759922996 542496 :hydrogen1243!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 NICK :thorium1256 < 1759923320 888259 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1759923352 990682 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1759924019 550284 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1759925449 88148 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull > 1759928719 794128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:99tommy.png10]]": A 99 bottles of beer-like program for [[Lines are cool]] > 1759928911 602765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165829&oldid=135828 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+287) 10yes > 1759929782 552761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tommyfunc.png10]]": A [[tommyaweosme function]] in [[Lines are cool]] > 1759929940 761438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:Tommyfunc.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165831&oldid=165830 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+13) 10 > 1759929987 708038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:Tommyfunc.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165832&oldid=165831 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+22) 10 > 1759930049 717186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165833&oldid=165829 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+7) 10 > 1759930070 502353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165834&oldid=165833 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+4) 10 < 1759930643 168569 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1759932336 427028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Tommyconst.png10]]": A [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant|tommy constant]] program made in [[Lines are cool]] > 1759932370 993529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165836&oldid=165834 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+86) 10 > 1759932461 627528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165837&oldid=165836 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+236) 10 > 1759933368 812138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:PrySigneToFry's new logo.jpg10]]" > 1759933444 896315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165839&oldid=165524 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+68) 10 > 1759935196 389921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165840&oldid=165766 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10 > 1759935328 173633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165841&oldid=165840 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+9) 10 < 1759936996 429780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: fnord? < 1759936997 420233 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: hello, sarah. i am not totally in the dark review, accuses reviewer of piracy"? is that simple, it just jumps back to after the if. < 1759937009 991564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style < 1759937010 44585 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube < 1759937035 724041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ukparl < 1759937035 795464 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018) < 1759937041 804060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: hello my learned friend < 1759937042 443370 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that is in line with the new general. we have serious issues about social fnord and to enhance, the ability, to defend to the death, and they have left the eu, < 1759939705 123791 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1759940365 498679 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Social fnord is a serious issue. < 1759940443 378858 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The newfangled LLMs may be objectively better at generating plausible text, or even at stylistic fidelity, but they just wouldn't have the charm of fungot. < 1759940444 394446 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: he is in my mind, the government welcomed the first fnord, an italian woman of the year will always be in the eye, in their own for fnord council, using fnord, were frankly and honestly, as best i have ever experienced. < 1759940480 834096 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not that all the styles are equally successful.) > 1759940868 569449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SeeLlash14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165842&oldid=155050 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+69) 10 > 1759940944 72408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AnotherUser0514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165843&oldid=155083 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+22) 10 > 1759943514 285276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165844&oldid=165380 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+232) 10/* */ > 1759943598 887534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165845&oldid=164904 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10 > 1759943619 174459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165846&oldid=165845 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-14) 10 < 1759944032 61422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1759944736 134792 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1759945120 448981 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1759946219 595032 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1759946299 453336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165847&oldid=165779 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+709) 10extending the specification to allow for more granular IO and data control < 1759946613 451157 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1759947539 432316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165848&oldid=165847 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-70) 10/* Syntax */ fix syntax < 1759948297 114684 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat > 1759948802 129980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mouse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165849&oldid=164263 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+60) 10/* Newline */ > 1759948819 190806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mouse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165850&oldid=165849 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+21) 10 < 1759949960 258024 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 NICK :vista_user < 1759950013 544296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Markov chains have proven to be useful as something to serve to AI scrapers to make them think they have successfully scraped a page, without using too much CPU power < 1759950028 77062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you give them 403s they just try to come back in a better disguise) < 1759950060 778755 :vista_user!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: tgats actually really cool < 1759951004 983977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, n-gram models? I suppose that the main cost is memory bandwidth, just like with other language models. < 1759951901 305947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right < 1759951905 915927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't have to be a large one to make it work < 1759951906 290401 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can keep the model simple if your goal is just to generate garbage to feed the scraper < 1759952025 104113 :vista_user!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1759952029 773089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. The universal approximation theorem (or whatever we call it these days) says that a quick model has to be simple. < 1759952512 385401 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hope this is like video encoding where a simple model is easier to train too > 1759952961 744532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165851&oldid=165848 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+716) 10/* Loop amounts */ implementation info > 1759953218 874853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165852&oldid=165812 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+462) 10spec updates > 1759954571 700223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165853&oldid=149371 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+388) 10 > 1759954590 219296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165854&oldid=165853 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+14) 10 < 1759954772 126196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: I feel like I was missing out by not pinging you earlier < 1759954772 282910 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: with the eu charter. < 1759954867 112595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :excuse me honorable member fungot, which parliament is this, is it the EU or the English one? < 1759954867 192348 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fnord fnord fnord, < 1759954881 275543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very informative > 1759955015 203020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165855&oldid=165107 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+252) 10[whilst clapping to the beat] YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE AN INTERPRETER/COMPILER FOR YOUR ESOLANG TO HAVE AN ARTICLE ON IT! < 1759955123 166254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been meaning to write an article at some point about how to write a good esolang, but I'm not quite sure what I'd put in it yet < 1759955172 136506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do know some things to avoid (e.g. creating an esolang idea with serious missing details and hoping that someone else will fill them in is unlikely to work, and even more unlikely to work if there isn't enough of an idea to constrain how the language ends up) > 1759955396 568940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165856&oldid=152976 5* 03Corbin 5* (+142) 10/* Where to test things out */ Explain how to preview changes without submitting them. < 1759955825 110871 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1759955884 506349 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1759955911 101333 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user > 1759956210 635936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165857&oldid=165856 5* 03Corbin 5* (+401) 10/* When to do stuff */ Fans of Sandbox: Have you considered Show Preview? < 1759956271 89109 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, I'll put it on my list. Right now I'm about to write down the sandbox policy we've discussed. Feel free to tweak it; the "a copy of this policy shall be placed" text is a USA meme. < 1759956330 116469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there have been some sandboxing problems I've had in the past where Show Preview wouldn't work for one reason or another, but I think they've mostly been at Wikipedia < 1759956350 745674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually it's cases which involve the interaction of multiple pages, so templates and transclusions – we hardly use those at Esolang and I think that's a good tihng > 1759956513 868509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165858&oldid=164763 5* 03Corbin 5* (+724) 10Tentative sandbox policy. This is an attempt at politely codifying themes that have been discussed multiple times on IRC. < 1759956629 145861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I would probably note that it's OK to draft an esolang article in userspace if you haven't finished it yet (as long as it would be ontopic once it's finished) < 1759956645 505807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some people prefer not having the pressure of the page going "live" immediately < 1759956677 235692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apart from that, this looks reasonable (although it somewhat dominates the rest of the page – I'm not sure whether there's a good way to avoid that, except perhaps expanding the other policy entries to a similar amount of depth) > 1759956725 29795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165859&oldid=164716 5* 03Corbin 5* (+620) 10/* Sandbox policy */ new section < 1759956788 926949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I was wondering about that. I don't have a problem with moves, other than the amount of redirects that they create (and the paucity of folks who can delete them). I can add more words to [[esolang:help]]. < 1759956842 178385 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We should probably expand the rest of the policy if we want to balance the page. I don't know if that really matters. It feels like the rest of the policy is compressed because there hasn't been much need to discuss or expand upon it. < 1759956852 795564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really, the only real problems with deleting redirects left over after moves are a) an admin has to notice them, which doesn't always happen because there's only one admin actively looking and they often miss things, b) sometimes people move history to the wrong place < 1759956861 76936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At the same time, I can go all the way to ''Main article: [[esolang:copyrights]]'' if you want. < 1759956878 755449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the author policy was discussed a lot, although much of that was in Esolang's early history < 1759956891 858197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's a link to that on the page < 1759956937 793894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the copyright policy wasn't really discussed because it was imposed by fiat by the original site owner – that said I suspect most users from the time, and probably most users now, are broadly in favour of it < 1759957065 584851 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1759957067 897589 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if we all agree upon it, we might need to discuss it to understand situations that arise in the future. > 1759957101 904450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165860&oldid=163070 5* 03Corbin 5* (+324) 10Clean the sandbox and bump the policy. < 1759957384 429909 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38 < 1759957491 770313 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reason I have drafted some things in user pages is because I did not know what it is called; if it is later known what it should be called then it can be moved to the main space. < 1759957537 131351 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, this doesn't really do anything about [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]]. It does establish that PSTF can't protect those pages by calling them a user sandbox. < 1759957579 117771 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I suppose that we don't even really have community consensus that PSTF is spamming, nor is there any essential legal issue with them public-domaining all of the various snippets that they've got under their user page. < 1759957595 100837 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user < 1759957614 786066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think we need to have a discussion at some point about whether that's an appropriate use for the site – it's basically an attempt to use it as a social network, which wikis aren't very good at for a number of reasons < 1759957665 583923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to understand what to do about [[Square-complete]] and friends. I think that they show a fundamental misunderstanding of why we study computers, and entertaining it for too long will turn us into a script-kiddie den. < 1759957795 149212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Sure. There's nothing wrong with having user pages, or a long user signature, or any of the other things that teenagers tend to do. < 1759957846 848821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what's your opinion of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Disan_Count ? < 1759958019 832897 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu < 1759958073 557429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Delightful. There's a similar situation in complexity theory where the class P/poly, which can be thought of as PTIME but where each individual size of input gets its own individually-wired circuit, contains Halting. It can't solve all problems, but it can be hardwired to solve specific hard problems. < 1759958121 19381 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: Peace. < 1759958141 289662 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☮ < 1759958149 725874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from my point of view, the whole Disan Count thing was probably an instance of the same misconception that lead to Square-complete, and actually produced some interesting results, but that probably wouldn't happen again because the second time wouldn't be substantially different < 1759958168 628723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this makes it very hard to draw a line < 1759958252 568391 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should we at least forbid sub-sandboxes like [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code]]? I can be polite about it. < 1759958301 321962 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Plushie-complete and PSTF-complete would be two other examples of questionable concepts. < 1759958358 393565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least the "Disan Count" page is a proper wiki page with a critical discussion. < 1759958399 8358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, although the first few versions didn't look liek that < 1759958475 573582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is what it looked like before the criticism: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Disan_Count&oldid=53609 < 1759958497 858497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still a proper wiki page < 1759958508 408415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I actually couldn't remember) < 1759958764 473146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Square-complete one is... ugh... well, the 6 properties feel rather random and half of them are rather imprecise. There's no motivation. Even the name makes no sense. But... if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it? < 1759958861 31263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I guess part of what redeems the Disan Count thing to my mind is that it's minimal, basically a streamlined FizzBuzz. < 1759958896 435179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh it was you who added the criticism. Fun. < 1759958908 785411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'm more likely to remember an article if I've interacted with it < 1759958942 514258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it? ← hmm, I think this is a good insight that doesn't just apply to that page in particular < 1759958959 445965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might summarise it as "esolangs should have a reason to exist" < 1759959033 935881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a very wide range of possible reasons – artistic, aesthetic, scientific, engineering – but often there seems to be a meta-reason instead ("I want to make 1000 esolangs") or no reason at all, and in that case the language often doesn't end up very good < 1759959053 676791 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hmm, but earlier you said that this wiki documents existing esolangs, not ones created for the wiki, so if an esolang already exists and perhaps existed before this wiki, why would you judge it on such criteria? < 1759959080 479246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I would still judge it (although possibly would document it anyway) < 1759959096 855324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am more likely to write an esolangs.org article about an esolang found offwiki if I find it interesting in some way < 1759959143 144409 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well sure, because your time is valuable < 1759959209 955479 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe < 1759959211 8329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would put it more along the lines of my attention span / mental energy being valuable < 1759959216 74227 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By "created for the wiki" I'm thinking of languages that wouldn't exist if the wiki didn't exist. < 1759959235 433816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but anyway, that is a good criteria in general, just interpret "reason to exist" broadly, like if something seemed like a good idea at the time but then didn't work out it still has a reason to exist < 1759959241 335201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to generalise the wiki a bit there, to at least cover sites like codegolf stack exchange < 1759959258 435382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although its one-off esolangs normally have more of a purpose than our worst) < 1759959264 246681 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eg. if you were trying to create a variant or subset that's smaller but still Turing-complete but it turns out that it's not Turing-complete then that is still a good enough reason < 1759959277 479166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I usually don't post those < 1759959290 295616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless the language ended up interesting some other way < 1759959300 820843 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sure, but you have to be careful, because there is one good language created for the wiki, the hair saloon one < 1759959314 306305 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some cases where I maybe posted early – in particular I am not 100% sure that Globe fulfils its reason for existence, and if it doesn't and it's unfixable I won't know what to do with the page < 1759959316 876103 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's an excuse that we can only use once < 1759959341 606066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that was more like having a wiki-inspired name < 1759959354 565734 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :naming things is hard, naming things using suggestions from spambots can thus occasionally be a reasonable idea < 1759959377 489504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and well, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is actually a good name for an esolang despite the etymology < 1759959395 536410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly better than a lot of names that you find on the wiki, yes < 1759959401 597996 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeesh < 1759959520 645688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm not sure how to classify things like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_a_system_of_notation_for_writing_computer_programs. < 1759959541 486881 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y86 where one of the interesting things about the language is that its original name turned out to be so bad (it got renamed later) < 1759959544 316444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(note that the link ends with a period that not all IRC clients will autolink – mine doesn't) < 1759959585 268970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: funnily enough I have an abandoned esolang called z386 < 1759959610 585772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which turned out to be too hard to implement, and then was superseded by actual practical research projects < 1759959642 31106 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea was to write a constraint solver that operated on both code and data by plugging x86 syntax into z3) < 1759959672 415587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there's no point in working on it now that things like Minotaur exist: https://users.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/minotaur.pdf < 1759959681 494168 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor does mine < 1759959703 172732 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, is it allowed to advertise tobacco products in the UK? < 1759959714 848363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sort of no < 1759959721 835308 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1759959734 495718 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: A gimmick is funny once. Same principle. Not sure how to formalize this without getting horribly gamed. < 1759959737 168639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are laws against it, but I think there are also loopholes < 1759959751 522188 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully https://esolangs.org/wiki/SKOAL isn't against some sort of wiki policy < 1759959768 662629 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes < 1759959808 216000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many shops have a list of the names of tobacco products that they sell, this is sufficiently common that I suspect that it's legal, otherwise shops wouldn't risk doing it < 1759959832 595684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the wiki would be less in trouble in that direction due to not actually selling tobacco < 1759960027 317301 :molson!~molson@2001-48F8-7040-0-0-0-0-729-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1759960132 401781 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… do we need policy if you can advertise (non-tobacco) merchandise on the wiki tied into the languages, like if someone's making language mascot plushies, or T-shirts with the source code of fungot? < 1759960132 644154 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: our new prime minister < 1759960133 426913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A75. (that's how we abbreviate these things, right?) is one of those ideas that is funny once. And then somebody makes a derivative (A207.) and it looks stupid. :-/ < 1759960167 665109 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what is A75? < 1759960172 350977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And making the page move is obviously a source of spam.) < 1759960189 66063 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: presumably an abbreviation for "A programming language…" < 1759960209 898490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-08.html#ldd < 1759960220 913210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(still shorter than the real link) < 1759960230 853009 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh < 1759960253 871588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the derivative is linked on that page < 1759960344 746938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Obviously that abbreviation is a joke. So obviously I have to add a redirect to the wiki now. (Don't worry, I won't.) < 1759960355 403664 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 is how I would link it < 1759960373 669587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That would work. < 1759960377 97413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm amazed that that works < 1759960410 615835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you look at the URL after redirection, it indicates why it works, but it looks like an accidental feature rather than an intended one) < 1759960420 593273 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I use that to link to file pages on Wikimedia Commons often, since they tend to have longer and less directly descriptive titles than eg. Wikipedia pages < 1759960433 653389 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm also relieved that the page name is out of date.) < 1759960470 246782 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what? I don't think it's an accident. hold on, it's documented, let me find where. it's the way to link by page ID. page IDs are stable. < 1759960479 418732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a "Main Page" in the URL < 1759960494 868761 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and *that* might be a bug < 1759960520 598906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the correct form of that link is https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?curid=9270 < 1759960540 595437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it looks like if you specify both page name and curid, curid wins < 1759960548 933531 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Page_revision_or_version specifically says curid "overrides the value of the title" < 1759960591 188254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 redirects to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 which rewrites to https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=9270 which gives you the page you want < 1759960619 267254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this doesn't look intentional at all, it's only because the website homepage redirects to a wiki page that it works < 1759960673 915471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it does make sense that the page title is ignored when an id is given < 1759960685 523897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so... unintentional feature? :) < 1759960686 14185 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, but the "index.php" is totally an exposed implementation detail there that shouldn't be in the URL < 1759960737 514944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But indeed the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 variant doesn't look like it should work :) < 1759960744 743116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway < 1759960810 236712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I disagree, the index.php is the actual wiki and the only "real" URL, everything else is redirects and rewrite rules < 1759960832 775079 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I had to vote on that page being on the wiki, I'd vote against; there's no language there and the whole novelty is that its *name* is defined by external reference whose contents is ever changing. < 1759960833 658519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally you would expect the URL to contain the page you are visiting < 1759960870 46497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: well the name of the language and the legal source code and the output are all the same, so it does raise a conceptual issue, which is what you want for joke languages < 1759960879 616041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if someone edits the wikipedia page, it invalidates all existing programs and interpreters < 1759960894 13969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It does. The nice things about votes is that they can be subjective ;-) < 1759960903 560299 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, the main interface for the wiki is /w/ , it's just called /w/index.php instead so that people can run the wiki even if they're using a custom dumb webserver that they have difficulty configuring and *must* tie the URL to the program that the webserver runs. which, by the way, is a stupid idea in first place, where else would you let the untrusted visitor tell you the name of the executable < 1759960909 560170 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that you should run? < 1759960922 565131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I were an admin I'd probably let it stay simply because it's hard to argue against it objectively and it does little harm. < 1759960930 855479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what's your opinion of /w/api.php? < 1759960934 39103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Different perspective. :P < 1759960960 536219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I can see an argument for listing the page under a title different from the language name < 1759960973 836286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'd probably delete the derivative (which is just a stub anyway) because the last thing I'd want is more of this idea. < 1759960994 223915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a while ago I had the idea of creating a language whose name is negatively long and deletes characters before it < 1759961028 474407 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there too the ".php" is an implementation detail that shouldn't be there. probably the "api" shouldn't either and it should just trigger that interface based on the value of the action parameter, but I think there's some historical reason where the "API" is newer in MediaWiki than the main web interface and was originally an extension or something. < 1759961060 925522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we're getting into philosophical issues about who and what a URL is for < 1759961075 798553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't know how to resolve them < 1759961131 356581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The real problem with the wiki isn't really that there's pages with weird ideas or underspecified languages that barely manage to specify a syntax and have no substance... it's the volume of them, which has evidently gone up with LLMs. < 1759961183 968725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we need to do a better job of trying to curate < 1759961202 995923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"articles should contain human thought" is a terrible criterion if you want to be objective :P < 1759961208 765969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking for a while that we should get rid of the existing language list and put the semi-serious language list under the "language list" title – we have a category for the whole set of languages < 1759961235 408537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I've been considering trying to write an article about cursed, although I'm not 100% sure it's an esolang it is probably ontopic < 1759961280 169066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it was a language created by an LLM running in agent mode in a loop for three months) < 1759961298 48351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just the amount that that would have cost seems esoteric in its own rihg < 1759961299 479243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* right < 1759961327 95814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its semantics would have to be reverse engineered, and apparently it has three interpreters which (given how they were created) almost certainly don't match in behaviour < 1759961378 448539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect trying to figure out what LLM code actually does is very difficult, though < 1759961409 283759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interpreters that don't match in behavior doesn't exclude it, that might just mean some behavior is unspecified and there are implementation differences. as long as you can still write mostly portable programs that require only few changes between the interpreters it's not worse than real practical languages. < 1759961437 714255 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there no documentation about the language? < 1759961515 8614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, there's plenty of documentation < 1759961545 771786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, let's back up, who initiated this experiment and why in first place? < 1759961548 995220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, given the circumstances, there's no reason to expect it to match the interpreters or even to be internally consistent < 1759961561 912844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did they intend to create a language in first place, or was that an unforseen side effect? < 1759961618 526267 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intended to create a language < 1759961654 373467 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They replaced Go's keywords. Discussion here (https://lobste.rs/s/ydgmi6/i_ran_claude_loop_for_three_months_it) reveals that it took 3mo and $14k to do this. < 1759961669 375187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that the LLM version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment < 1759961672 505786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like the specs are here: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/tree/zig/specs < 1759961690 832183 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, they didn't actually fork Go. That would have been easy and understandable. Quoting a great comment there, "The point is not a business advantage. The point is a display of power, a message that humans are soon no longer needed." < 1759961693 785292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are pages like https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/compiler_stages.md that clearly have no relationship to reality < 1759961757 608436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/ffi.md where the examples are written in Rust which again makes no sense in context < 1759961857 52114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's like V but worse. Vanity junk for the church of Algol. < 1759961859 502961 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1759961890 338084 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, that was mean. I'm hungry and it's time to take a break. < 1759961932 757299 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually this is a lot worse than I expected it to be < 1759961955 805956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I arbitrarily picked a file from the test suite, and it looked like this: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/strings/125_valid_palindrome.%F0%9F%92%80 < 1759961981 536179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the commit message is amazing too) < 1759962037 498729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the real question is as to whether a language has even been created? < 1759962044 638768 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"vibez.spill" < 1759962077 74937 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"So here you'll want a … *sigh* … butt loop." https://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1169#comic < 1759962084 218146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a test-suite, this must be for printf debugging ;-) < 1759962116 158380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL, https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/binary_search/704_binary_search_backup.%F0%9F%92%80 < 1759962149 179415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "backup" has some actual bunary search looking code in it; the non-"backup" version is just $printf-s. < 1759962167 316744 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1759962178 975598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've heard that LLMs have a tendency to remove all the actual testing from tests in order to make them pass < 1759962234 385523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that does *look* a lot like a binary search, but my experience with LLMs says that they are better at producing output that looks correct than output that is correct < 1759962274 683218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm... wasn't there a story where an LLM optimized number crunching code to make it 100% faster, by snooping the reference result from the test suite? < 1759962290 16286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case the tests do not have any expected output anywhere, as far as I can tell < 1759962290 556634 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I remember when it was fashionable on programming forums for people to post stupid microbenchmarks about what solution is "faster", like, you know, the fastest way to get the first two characters of a five character long string, in a way where the things they tested didn't even correctly solve the supposed task. < 1759962295 357328 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reinforcment-learned agent (RL agent) can only have a single objective. Claude's sole objective is to help the user by being a Helpful Harmless Assistant; Claude Code is merely code-flavored in several ways. < 1759962305 506465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the test suite runner just prints a message saying that it's running the test, then returns 1 < 1759962311 685758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/master_test_runner.%F0%9F%92%80 < 1759962321 25260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, I should say, a test suite runner < 1759962345 872882 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: nah, that takes effort, these benchmarks didn't even bother to test if the result is correct. they just flat out measured the time of an operation that gave the wrong result. < 1759962369 368663 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like the old joke about the intel processor that can multiply really fast (but gives the wrong result) < 1759962613 245710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :microbenching correctly is actually really difficult because you keep running into special cases in the processor if you try to run a loop too tightly < 1759962648 165374 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes. < 1759962694 169853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I *love* writing a tight number crunching loop in C, changing code elsewhere (say, slightly different initialization) and then seeing the code be 20% faster. < 1759962701 949897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or slower < 1759962718 686913 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: does aligning the microbenchmark to 64 help with that? < 1759962736 705389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's usually my first attempt to stabliise it < 1759962763 417205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm usually doing it in asm, I think gcc has a way to align a function < 1759962783 956610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(note: this won't necessarily speed it up or slow it down, just helps to make it more consistent) < 1759962792 262694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, that could be caused by lots of things. one thing you should make sure to stabilize is the alignment of all the data memory accessed within a 4k page, to make sure the L1 cache pattern is the same. < 1759962812 641007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a concrete example right now... it might have. Though on rare occasions it's actually the compiler doing something wildly different. < 1759962890 94108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, suddenly producing code with 5 fewer spills in the inner loop. < 1759962946 905367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :register allocation is NP-complete, as such sometimes compilers get it wrong < 1759962975 733969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fortunately, for one-off code, you can just run the fastest version without overanlyzing why exactly it's faster than others :) < 1759962981 568327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you have to at least put your microbenchmark into a non-inlined function in order to stop the rest of the code impacting register allocation decisions < 1759962991 562124 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, and even writing a decent approximation sounds like black magic to me < 1759963008 320692 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's one of the parts of the compiler that I have no idea how to write if I had to write one < 1759963008 618449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it depends on what you consider decent/indecent < 1759963012 72644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other is the inliner < 1759963017 748405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a plan but I don't know whether it works or not < 1759963022 593704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway. the point was that I can relate < 1759963037 115458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1759963068 756733 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I mean this for a modern architecture like x86-linux, not eg. 6502 with 64k RAM with uniform access time (not counting bank switching) < 1759963099 969024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I think my plan doesn't work, that was easy < 1759963129 268576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea was to start by ignoring register identity and just count how many were needed, but I think even that is not even polynomially approximable) < 1759963381 576279 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1759964949 893202 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1759964949 983276 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1759965833 298992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165861&oldid=165852 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+58) 10/* External resources */ < 1759967069 294187 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname