01:20:01 <esolangs> [[Neko]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165912&oldid=165863 * Dmiz * (-23)
01:58:17 -!- amby has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:16:47 <esolangs> [[ICBINB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165913&oldid=89463 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+160) Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ICBINB programming language on GitHub and marked the original implementation's resource as expired.
03:01:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Purboi * New user account
03:06:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165914&oldid=165911 * Purboi * (+195) new user
03:10:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165915&oldid=165914 * Purboi * (+0) oct 11 not 10
03:12:15 <esolangs> [[User:Purboi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165916 * Purboi * (+117) new
03:28:10 <esolangs> [[Pur]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165917 * Purboi * (+2428) basically everything
03:34:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pur]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165918 * Purboi * (+0) Created blank page
03:35:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pur]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165919&oldid=165918 * Purboi * (+61) /* hi */ new section
03:36:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pur]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165920&oldid=165919 * Purboi * (+141) /* reply */ new section
04:09:09 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
04:59:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I was wrong about buried, it isn't a flag, it's a separate chain (the equivalent of a separate table)
05:00:34 <ais523> the buried flag is for monsters and the players, not items
05:13:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
05:16:46 <esolangs> [[LogicGates/exGates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165921 * None1 * (+12086) Created page with ":{{Back|LogicGates}} :''Note: exGates uses numbers as commands instead of letters, so exGates-2 is incompatible with LogicGates.'' exGates is a family of LogicGates dialects. There are an infinite number of languages in exGates: exGates-2, exGates-3, etc. e
05:17:19 <esolangs> [[LogicGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165922&oldid=165760 * None1 * (+52)
05:17:49 <esolangs> [[LogicGates/exGates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165923&oldid=165921 * None1 * (+8) /* ASCII HI! in exGates-74 */
05:18:18 <esolangs> [[LogicGates/exGates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165924&oldid=165923 * None1 * (+155) /* Computational class */
05:22:02 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165925&oldid=165698 * None1 * (+62)
05:22:17 <esolangs> [[ExGates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165926 * None1 * (+32) Redirected page to [[LogicGates/exGates]]
05:22:55 <esolangs> [[C*]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165927 * H33T33 * (+3022) Created page with "C* or Cx, pronounced "C Times", is an extension of the C++ programming language. It is designed to be much more flexible and easier to read and write with. Unfortunately, it is only a concept at the moment. =Major Changes= ==Outputting and Semicolons== Outputting and Inputt
05:23:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165928&oldid=165907 * None1 * (+14) /* E */
05:25:32 <esolangs> [[User:H33T33]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165929&oldid=159863 * H33T33 * (+12)
05:25:48 <esolangs> [[C*]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165930&oldid=165927 * H33T33 * (-25)
05:26:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:BRaInFUCK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165931&oldid=165715 * None1 * (+315)
05:26:44 <esolangs> [[User:H33T33]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165932&oldid=165929 * H33T33 * (+9) /* Concept */
05:26:55 <esolangs> [[User:H33T33]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165933&oldid=165932 * H33T33 * (+10) /* In Development */
07:01:59 -!- tromp has joined.
07:12:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:17:58 -!- Sgeo has joined.
08:11:56 <esolangs> [[Basic Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165934&oldid=165905 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+175)
08:25:43 -!- Awoobis has changed nick to gAy_Dragon.
08:25:52 -!- gAy_Dragon has changed nick to Awoobis.
08:28:17 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
08:37:10 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:38:33 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
08:39:48 <esolangs> [[Basic Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165935&oldid=165934 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+184)
09:47:28 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:48:47 -!- chiselfuse has joined.
09:53:48 -!- tromp has joined.
09:56:20 <int-e> b_jonas: hehe, shapez.io balancers can be pretty weird: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/r/shapez-balancer-phases.png (at 8x speed; the fact that 60/8 is not an integer is probably relevant)
09:58:02 <int-e> (I only wanted to demonstrate that it can swap fully saturated inputs; the other three behaviors came up by accident)
10:19:42 <esolangs> [[Basic Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165936&oldid=165935 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+2376)
10:48:43 -!- amby has joined.
11:21:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, that doesn't look too surprising
11:22:40 <b_jonas> I know you can do that sort of magic trick with Factorio splitters
11:34:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
11:35:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:36:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
11:44:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:29:09 <esolangs> [[User:Nguyendinhtung2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165937&oldid=165904 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+126)
12:31:33 <esolangs> [[User:NoWhy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165938&oldid=165801 * NoWhy * (+87)
12:33:59 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
12:34:14 <esolangs> [[Ens]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165939 * NoWhy * (+241) ens
12:42:36 -!- tromp has joined.
12:59:33 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165940 * NoWhy * (+982) Distal Interphalangeal Joint
13:07:21 <esolangs> [[Triolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165941&oldid=160987 * BestCoder * (-10)
13:12:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165942&oldid=165908 * Tommyaweosme * (+130)
13:22:15 <esolangs> [[Count counters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165943&oldid=145537 * BestCoder * (+59)
15:16:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165944&oldid=165942 * Ractangle * (+198) /* Please delete this page */
15:22:29 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165945&oldid=165940 * NoWhy * (+1656) specs update
15:22:33 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:22:49 -!- perlbot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:29:28 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165946&oldid=165945 * NoWhy * (+154) consulted the professional opinion of audiologists
15:43:29 <esolangs> [[Stack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165947&oldid=165649 * Nguyendinhtung2014 * (+110)
15:55:16 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165948&oldid=165946 * NoWhy * (+170) note
16:34:41 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165949&oldid=165948 * NoWhy * (+246) specs
16:36:03 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165950&oldid=165949 * NoWhy * (-6)
16:41:17 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165951&oldid=165950 * NoWhy * (+0)
16:43:15 -!- Everything has joined.
17:02:16 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
17:03:46 -!- perlbot has joined.
17:19:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:20:19 <ais523> I'm reading https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.15327v2 and it notes that the word "esoteric" appears in the original INTERCAL documentation – I wonder whether that's the actual etymology of "esoteric programming language"? if so it would be older than the commonly accepted etymologies
17:21:21 <ais523> I guess we'd have to ask Chris Pressey
17:23:23 <ais523> hmm, there's at least one factual error in the paper, though, it says C-INTERCAL's ICL999I occurs as a result of being unable to parse a program incorrectly, it is actually due to the compiler not being installed correctly (INTERCAL almost doesn't have parser errors)
17:23:39 <ais523> there are compile-time errors but they have different causes
17:26:18 <ais523> it also lists a language called "Malbodge" which is either a derivative that's very similar to the original, or a typo
17:27:00 <ais523> it's good that people are studying esolangs academically, but I don't like this paper very much :-(
17:33:44 <ais523> huh, this paper says that Whitespace was designed by the same person as Idris, assuming that's accurate it's interesting
17:50:16 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
17:56:46 <esolangs> [[Thisthat]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165952&oldid=163215 * Aadenboy * (+25) [[Category:Deque-based]]
18:06:18 -!- tromp has joined.
18:30:31 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:31:06 <b_jonas> of course, any parser errors are actually just the users not understanding Intercal syntax
18:31:21 -!- perlbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:35:27 <ais523> there are a few cases where command-line options (or the lack of them) will cause a program to be rejected in the parser
18:36:01 <ais523> especially involving the -t option to C-INTERCAL, which rejects code that C-INTERCAL understands but INTERCAL-72 wouldn't (note: this violates backwards compatibility as this would have been a runtime error in INTERCAL-72, not a compile-time error)
18:36:30 <ais523> I think assigning to a constant might also be a compile-time error (unless you turn on the option to make that legal)?
18:36:43 <ais523> but it's debatable whether that's a parse error or not
18:37:18 <ais523> err, to be precise, I meant assigning to a numeric literal
18:53:59 <korvo> Yes, Whitespace and Idris both have Brady as primary author. Worth remembering that Whitespace *isn't* its own type specimen; the origin is the classic Perl module, Acme::Bleach.
18:54:17 <korvo> esolangs: Was Whitespace designed by the same person as Idris?
18:54:39 <esolangs> korvo: No, Whitespace and Idris were designed by different people. Edwin Brady designed Whitespace with Chris Morris, while he designed and implemented Idris independently.
18:56:23 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
18:58:52 <korvo> Technically correct.
19:01:42 -!- tromp has joined.
19:02:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:24:49 <esolangs> [[John Backus Turing Award Lecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165953 * Fpstefan * (+6736) Created page with "John Backus won the Turing Award in 1977. He worked on a function-level programming language known as FP, which was described in his Turing Award lecture "Can Programming be Liberated from the von Neumann Style?<ref>Backus, John (August 1978).
19:47:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165954 * Corbin * (+2007) I have a few concerns. I say this as the person that cited the same lecture for the blurb on the functional-paradigm category blurb.
19:48:15 <korvo> LMK if more policy words are needed to explain that LLMs produce words of unknown provenance and can't be trusted to not plagiarize.
19:56:28 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
19:59:55 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165955&oldid=165951 * NoWhy * (+103) linked implementation
20:01:16 <esolangs> [[John Backus Turing Award Lecture]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165956&oldid=165953 * Fpstefan * (+90)
20:02:10 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165957&oldid=165955 * NoWhy * (+41) /* Implementations */
20:07:39 -!- perlbot has joined.
20:08:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165958&oldid=165954 * Aadenboy * (+373) I don't think generative AI should be used to generate articles for topics like this
20:08:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165959&oldid=165958 * Aadenboy * (+7) wording
20:08:57 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165960&oldid=165957 * Aadenboy * (+0) mark table headers
20:09:09 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165961&oldid=165960 * Aadenboy * (+23) [[Category:Languages]]
20:14:56 <korvo> "a way out of variable abstinence"? My friend, you can always use lambda calculus! The reason that we want to avoid binders is because nominal logic is strictly more complicated than tacit logic!
20:18:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[John Backus Turing Award Lecture]]": this is apparently a review of a paper [https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/359576.359579], not a description of an esolang there is also some chance that it is not public-domain
20:20:15 <ais523> korvo: one meaningful copyright difference between the US and the UK is that in the US, things that are entirely machine-produced can't be copyrighted, whereas in the UK, they're considered copyrighted by the person who used the machine to create them – but that may be irrelevant if the LLM is plagiarising from a copyrighted source because in that case it isn't entirely machine-produced
20:20:37 <ais523> it is frustratingly hard to work out whether LLM output is plagiarised or not, they're much better at covering their tracks than humans are
20:21:40 <ais523> in any case, I consider the typical LLM output to not be much more useful than the prompt, so the deletion log message contains the primary useful content
20:22:04 <ais523> (and even if it isn't LLM output it's still offtopic, as you pointed out)
20:24:20 <korvo> ais523: USA: If a machine happens to produce an output which is indistinguishable from a registered work with the Copyright Office (i.e. a copy exists at the Library of Congress) then the machine's output is also copyrighted. The machine is not covered by that copyright.
20:25:09 <ais523> korvo: well, unless it's fair use (in which case it's still copyrighted, but not infringing) – there's some major court cases going on about that at the moment
20:25:19 <korvo> USA courts are still juggling exactly how to deal with this, but "the machine generated it for me" isn't actually a defense; at best, it can establish a fair-use defense, which is affirmative in USA. That is, "I was allowed to infringe: the machine generated it for me, and I didn't tell it to infringe!"
20:25:50 <korvo> ais523: Common misconception! Lucky 10000: Fair use is an affirmative defense here, so it *is* infringement. It's just infringement that we're willing to overlook because we're so magnanimous~
20:26:19 <ais523> hmm, if you have an affirmative defence I think it's a semantic issue whether anything was infringed or not
20:26:32 <ais523> it is conceptually no different from not infringing
20:26:51 <korvo> Affirmative defense here means that yes, the crime/tort was committed, but the defendant has a good reason for doing it.
20:26:56 <ais523> (this sort of equivalence often becomes relevant in law, e.g. promising not to sue someone for copyright infringement is considered to be a form of license)
20:29:51 <korvo> I had an analogy for this: https://awful.systems/comment/7846375 (and followed up in https://awful.systems/comment/8666898) about a drunk guy on a street corner who happens to be pretty good at reciting Star Wars.
20:30:26 <korvo> "Suppose a transient person on a street corner is babbling. Occasionally they spout what sounds like a quote from a Star Wars film. Intrigued, we prompt the transient to recite the entirety of Star Wars, and they proceed to mostly recreate the original film, complete with sound effects and voice acting, only getting a few details wrong."
20:30:36 <korvo> "Does it matter whether the transient paid to watch the original film (as opposed to somebody else paying the fee)? No, their recreation might be candid and yet not faithful enough to infringe. Is Lucas entitled to a licensing fee for every time the transient happens to learn something about Star Wars? Eh, not yet, but Disney’s working on it."
20:32:07 <korvo> Incidentally, those links are also my commentary on the court cases. Unlike my peers, I'm not cheering for copyright, and I'm never going to cheer for Disney or Nintendo to get more power over their IP.
20:33:37 <ais523> I remember thinking that copyright laws being weakened would probably be a good thing, but this is just about the stupidest possible way to do it
20:33:50 <ais523> and I'd much rather they got weakened in an intentional and well-thought-out way
20:34:26 <b_jonas> ais523: isn't a too polite or too impolite problem rejected too at compile time? or a program that doesn't start with a statement header?
20:34:54 <ais523> b_jonas: a) yes, b) no but C-INTERCAL has a known bug in that regard (which may have become a feature over time)
20:35:20 <ais523> specifically the C-INTERCAL implementation parses bytes before the first statement identifier as being a statement on their own, but forgets to set the probability field
20:35:32 <ais523> so it runs with 0% probability and thus actually allows you to put arbitrary information at the start of the program
20:35:43 <korvo> Well, Nintendo is never going to go quietly. I mention *Sega v. Accolade* and *Galoob v. Nintendo*, which you might recognize; these are why it's legal to emulate and mod consoles in the USA.
20:36:16 <ais523> I imagine Nintendo isn't very represented in the training data, except for things like screenshots and video streams
20:36:22 <korvo> If establishing a right to machine learning is required to establish a right to libraries, which we currently don't have, then so be it.
20:37:13 <korvo> Meh. To quote ZFG, "the only time we hear from Nintendo is copyright complaints". They're in there; they're the most popular toymaker in the world, controlling the most profitable IP in the world (Pokémon).
20:37:15 <ais523> if you ask an LLM to generate a new game for you as a ROM for, e.g., the Nintendo 64, it is probably not going to be able to manage it
20:38:03 <b_jonas> "<korvo> a drunk guy on the street corner / <korvo> a transient person" => strange euphemism
20:38:04 <ais523> so Nintendo's main complaint about this would be LLMs generating, e.g., pictures of Mario – but that's more or less equivalent to the complaints artists have and not very related to video games
20:38:32 <korvo> But Nintendo doesn't just claim copyright over the programs. They also claim character and setting copyrights. Nintendo's multi-front fight against Pocketpair (Palworld) shows that they aren't just defending the bytecode.
20:39:08 <ais523> korvo: right – but my point is that this is effectively equivalent to, e.g., the situation Disney is in
20:39:16 <b_jonas> hmm, reciting most of the original A New Hope complete with sound effects would actually be kind of impressive if real time.
20:39:17 <korvo> b_jonas: I forgot that it was a homeless guy instead of a drunk guy, sorry. Neither attribute is essential for the legal theory, but that particular forum only allows debate if it follows specific rules about being insulting ("funny").
20:39:18 <ais523> Nintendo might fight harder than Disney does, but they might not
20:40:35 <b_jonas> bytes before the frist statement identifier as its own statement but 0% probability => hehe
20:40:45 <korvo> Disney's funding crap like Glaze and Nightshade; they know that diffusion models aren't going away, so they're funding ways to make their movies unusable as training data. It's obviously unworkable for information-theoretic reasons but still worth pointing out.
20:40:57 <ais523> b_jonas: it is an amazing bug because it's actually useful
20:41:12 <ais523> sort-of like the way the reference Malbolge interpreter treats source code bytes that have the high bit set
20:41:32 <korvo> b_jonas: The joke is partially self-referential; this crowd would readily remember the scene in Return of the Jedi where C-3PO performs the entirety of Star Wars in Ewok language, complete with sound effects.
20:45:34 <korvo> ais523: Anyway, the case I've been mentioning to people is *Authors Guild v Google*. This case is two decades old! Google was scanning books and authors didn't like it so they got their publishers to sue. Google won somewhat; they established the right to digitize owned copies and build private databases that summarize.
20:46:12 <ais523> unfortunately, this sort of case has tendency to finish in a way that still leaves things unclear
20:47:15 <korvo> I see *Anthropic* (and *Meta* to a much lesser degree) as furthering this right, so that a digital archivist may consider *all* of their collection to be eligible for private machine learning and distillation. I personally want this right so I can e.g. use perceptual hashing to manage photos that I've taken on a phone, using my laptop and fileserver.
20:48:23 <ais523> I can see a potentially reasonable outcome along the lines of "you're allowed to store and train on and process all this data, but you can't reproduce substantial amounts to the general public" – unfortunately the current AI companies would find that hard to comply with
20:48:45 <korvo> What *Anthropic* will likely end up saying for us is that our right to distillation doesn't extend to pirated materials, but only lawfully-purchased copies. At the same time, it'll further delimit the USA's right of first sale, which says that you can't force-attach licenses to resold copyrighted materials.
20:49:52 <korvo> *Authors Guild* already says something like "you're allowed to store, train on, and process the book data *and* you may reproduce it for the public in a variety of forms provided that you're not just clearly making on-demand printable full-book copies"
20:50:17 -!- kkkkkkkkturbokom has joined.
20:51:41 <ais523> what I'm most worried about would be a verdict which says, in effect, "big companies are allowed to do what they want with copyrighted material but individuals aren't"
20:52:21 <ais523> which really shouldn't be the outcome but somehow it's hard to be confident
20:52:31 <korvo> Oh, that's been the case ever since the Mickey Mouse Act.
20:53:54 <korvo> Like, part of why I'm so dour about copyright is that it's not *for* us. It's for large publishing houses. Blizzard is allowed to steal artwork from its employees and the commons; meanwhile it's a crime to copy RAM that Blizzard's game happens to occupy. Riot, Disney, and Nintendo have all been caught appropriating artwork too.
20:54:34 <b_jonas> there are a few special cases where big companies can do more than individuals, but I don't think there'll be a general judgement stating that for all cases
20:55:15 <ais523> my current beliefs are currently along the lines of a) it is clearly possible to have sensible copyright rules, b) there are multiple reasonable forms those could take, c) the world's current copyright rules unfortunately aren't sensible
20:55:34 <korvo> Working-for-hire is *prima facie* unconstitutional. The copyright law, as written, explicitly disenfranchises artists and allows employers to own art that they could not have made themselves. Yet no constitutional challenge has ever been heard, nor ever will be heard.
20:55:40 <ais523> but at least it's mostly possible to work within them
20:56:15 <ais523> I guess I've mostly just given up hope of having them fixed, and am merely hoping they won't become even worse
20:56:29 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
20:56:39 <ais523> korvo: I guess the counterargument there is that if works for hire didn't work like that, nobody would ever hire artists
20:57:00 <ais523> I'm not sure I agree with it
20:57:18 <korvo> ais523: Sure. We're running out of things that require labor, so we need to stop imagining that jobs are a good thing. It's time for a proper UBI.
20:57:59 <korvo> kkkkkkkkturbokom: Art is cultural warfare. The art produced by big capitalist publishers is, one way or another, pushing the ideals of capitalism and big publishing.
20:58:04 <ais523> korvo: I continue to view UBI as a desirable end goal with no realistic path to reaching it
20:58:40 <kkkkkkkkturbokom> we are in society of consumes and is make more damages than all that fa*cist criminal in 20 years of tiranny (22 - 45)
21:00:13 <korvo> kkkkkkkkturbokom: The current topic is about how copyright affects the wiki. Right now, we require everything to be public-domain or equivalent, even if it is generated by AI. We're talking about how copyright differs between the USA and UK.
21:00:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Akirademenech * New user account
21:01:22 <ais523> it is interesting to note that almost everything I've deleted as a copyright violation would also have been undesirable for other reasons
21:01:25 <ais523> there might be a lesson there
21:01:36 <korvo> ais523: It happens whenever a petrostate has a well-managed state fund, e.g. Alaska or Kuwait. So that's one realistic path for petrostates, at least. But I agree that it will likely take some [offtopic] or [redacted] before we make progress.
21:02:09 <ais523> it does mean that i have little incentive to want to change the policy, as it isn't getting in the way
21:02:10 -!- kkkkkkkkturbokom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:12:11 -!- tromp has joined.
21:14:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165962&oldid=165915 * Akirademenech * (+593) /* Introductions */
21:20:42 <esolangs> [[User:Akirademenech]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165963 * Akirademenech * (+12) Created page with "Hello there!"
22:00:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
22:02:29 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:12:07 <b_jonas> ais523: didn't fizzie say that we probably won't change that because the hosting provider insists on it, so we change it only if someone else pays for the hosting?
22:34:10 -!- Everything has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:41:20 <fizzie> I don't remember discussing it with them at least in any detail. There's probably an implicit assumption that nobody's making any money from the website, and that's it has broadly speaking a charitable purpose. But I don't think they've said anything about public-domain-vs-other-permissive-licenses or anything.
22:42:16 <fizzie> If we were a registered UK charity, they might technically qualify for a (negligible) tax relief, but we're not.
22:47:55 <fizzie> I could also potentially Gift Aid (a UK-specific charitable donation tax thing for individuals) the yearly domain renewal fee, which would in principle equate to a 20% discount (the charity can claim 25% of all their Gift Aid donations from the government) *and* a tax break for me.
22:52:36 <fizzie> So it's more like a 56% discount all in all, if I did the numbers right. ...out of a yearly expense of (IIRC) $15.99 + 20% VAT, so probably not worth it.
23:02:37 <fizzie> (If it was a charity, I could also give it some of the money my employer allocates for each employee to send to charities once a year near the holiday season. Except, although I can't precisely say why, that does feel like it would be somehow unethical.)
23:04:01 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:17:10 -!- Melvar has joined.
23:17:56 <esolangs> [[Distal Interphalangeal Joint]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165964&oldid=165961 * NoWhy * (+812) chording