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02:56:25 <esolangs> [[User:EZ132/Not C++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166160&oldid=166149 * EZ132 * (+14) /* Design & History */
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04:12:56 <sorear> Can't say I've done much myself. Interesting choice of venue though
04:17:26 <korvo> It's been something of a reaction to (a) the uncomputability of many of the facts under study, combined with (b) the open refusal of some famous folks to not consider a GitHub repo to be citable even when it has working Coq proofs.
04:21:02 <sorear> the IRC channel and the wiki don't seem like an improvement there
04:22:01 <korvo> Yeah, but that's why I've got my own GitHub repo. And the repo does render nicely into a readable format: https://bbgauge.info/
04:22:39 <sorear> a GitHub repo isn't a valid source, so we add another GitHub repo?
04:23:18 <korvo> Hey, I never said that I was smart, only that I'm willing to put in the work~
04:25:40 <sorear> and a little curious what does and doesn't count as an "esolang"
04:25:41 <ais523> <korvo> the open refusal of some famous folks to not consider a GitHub repo to be citable even when it has working Coq proofs. ← I'm sort-of the opposite in that respect, in my PhD I intentionally tried to avoid citing things that weren't publicly available and pick publicly available alternatives
04:26:17 <ais523> sorear: defining "esolang" is difficult, a good working definition is that a language is esoteric if being useful to practically program in is not a design goal
04:26:39 <ais523> although I think that definition is slightly too restrictive
04:27:08 <korvo> I recently re-explained my definition, based on inclusionism vs deletionism, in the context of that one paper that went around: https://lobste.rs/s/ksrmbf/let_s_take_esoteric_programming#c_0gsmih
04:28:16 <sorear> nql was a means to an end so it fails that test
04:29:58 <ais523> I am thinking of Waterfall Construction Kit, a language I designed to write one program – I wrote the program and compiled it by hand without ever working out what the Waterfall Construction Kit specification was, and then abandoned the language it was written in
04:30:09 <korvo> Well, maybe the ends aren't practical. NQL or bfmacro are great for producing programs for low-level machines that don't physically exist. They can be ergonomic while addressing problems in pure maths. An extreme example of that might be https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sammy which isn't known to be computable.
04:30:35 <ais523> I guess both the "esoteric" and "language" halves of that are debatable!
04:31:26 <sorear> something like solidity comes to mind
04:31:51 <ais523> hmm, I just realised there's a sort of implicit assumption of "a programming language that is only useful when used with esolangs is an esolang" that I've never questioned before
04:32:02 <sorear> which _does_ have massive corporate backing, but I'm uncomfortable defining things strictly in terms of context
04:32:58 <ais523> I actually haven't looked at what solidity is like as a language, I kind-of assumed it was a relatively normal low-level VM, the same sort of thing as webassembly or the JVM, but I might be completely wrong
04:35:02 <zzo38> I think that git repositories (hosted on GitHub or something else) can be citable, although when citing something that can be changed then it might be worth to specify what version; in the case of git you can specify the commit hash, and that might also help in case it is mirrored to something else then you can also find the matching commit hash.
04:35:02 <korvo> Eye of the beholder, I guess; all three of those VMs are bonkers as compilation targets. I never did figure out how to compile Cammy to WASM in a satisfying way, nor Monte on JVM, although maybe I just didn't try very hard.
04:35:23 <ais523> after looking it up, it seems that I confused the VM (which is called EVM) with the language (Solidity) commonly used to compile to it
04:35:43 <zzo38> Citing something that is publicly available is also good, rather than something that is not publicly available because then you could not easily check the citation if it is not public
04:35:43 <ais523> korvo: one of my recent pet theories is that everyone is doing IRs incorrectly
04:36:41 <zzo38> Do you know what is the proper way to do IRs?
04:37:06 <ais523> I think the most important thing I would change would be to separate out UB from everything else: there would be an assert/assume instruction that defines circumstances to be UB, and all the other commands would be well-defined (although the definition could in some cases be "whatever the hardware does" for things like writing dangling pointers)
04:37:51 <ais523> that way, optimisations never cause you to lose track of what your UB assumptions are
04:38:05 <ais523> because you can preserve them as you optimise the code around them
04:38:10 <zzo38> I think that would be reasonable, for that and possibly other reasons too
04:38:22 <ais523> this also means that if you want defined behaviour in a particular case, you can just remove the UB assumption you'd normally emit
04:38:53 <sorear> the problem with "dangling and out of range pointers do whatever the hardware does" is that it prevents optimizations that affect things that shouldn't be visible but can be made visible by pointer misuse, like stack frame layout and slot reuse
04:38:57 <korvo> zzo38: Yeah. In the case of Busy Beaver research, the problem is that our person doesn't really want to verify the artifacts in the repo; they want "either a prose writeup explaining what was done or independent verification of its correctness", quoting https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9152#comment-2016433
04:39:29 <sorear> this came up in the cakeml stack
04:40:03 <korvo> So in the case of e.g. Leng 2024, they would prefer that somebody who isn't Leng (me?) run the Coq proofs and confirm that they pass. I did that! But where do I put the prose so that it's acceptable?
04:40:36 <sorear> what exactly are the coq proofs?
04:41:27 <korvo> Oh, not Leng, but mxdys; https://github.com/ccz181078/Coq-BB5 is the repo. Proofs of certain values of BB.
04:41:28 <ais523> <sorear> the problem with "dangling and out of range pointers do whatever the hardware does" is that it prevents optimizations that affect things that shouldn't be visible but can be made visible by pointer misuse, like stack frame layout and slot reuse ← that's why you have the UB assumptions – they permit that sort of optimization even though the rest of the IR doesn't
04:41:54 <zzo38> It would help to have a proper prose writeup which is publicly available, in addition to the git repository, but if you do not have it then you will have to do what you do have, instead.
04:42:05 <korvo> They also don't acknowledge Leng's TM for Goldbach Conjecture, verified in Lean 4: https://github.com/lengyijun/goldbach_tm
04:42:06 <ais523> there is a writeup of that now, I think
04:42:43 <ais523> korvo: I bet they wouldn't acknowledge my 2-state 14-symbol universal TM
04:42:51 <ais523> which is written up half on esowiki and half on codegolf stack exchange
04:44:23 <korvo> ais523: Let's just say that there's a lot that Aaronson doesn't acknowledge, and leave it at that. Some of us think he's too biased elsewhere to be an acceptable primary source here. I'm still citing him properly for the contributions he's made.
04:45:17 <korvo> I don't appear to have your TM in the Gauge, either. Do you have a link? I can take a look now, and I'll open an issue on GitHub if it takes me more than a few days.
04:45:56 <sorear> anyway I think the gold standard for citing is "anything with a DOI" and the astro-ph people have a bunch of tools for turning code repos into something that can be cited
04:46:25 <sorear> OTOH it would be nice to have a complete explanation and not "here's 500 lines of python have fun"
04:47:41 <ais523> korvo: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111278/turing-complete-language-interpreter/265539#265539
04:47:47 <korvo> Totally fair. My current standard is somewhere between "live link to a PDF" and "working Nix flake", but I think I'm a bit more of a hardscrabbler than a paper-writer. Certainly I haven't contributed anything of interest.
04:48:18 <sorear> it would be nice to have a proof for the zfc turing machines but there's a bunch of pieces to chain together, including the validity of the tarski-megill predicate calculus itself
04:48:31 <ais523> I wrote the Turing machine in question in 2019 but didn't prove it universal until 2023 (and the proof hasn't been peer-reviewed so it might be wrong)
04:48:57 <zzo38> What is the DOI of a GitHub repository? Can you cite a specific version?
04:49:39 <ais523> you can definitely cite a particular version of a git repository, via providing the hash (which is, to any reasonable approximation, globally unique)
04:49:40 <korvo> ais523: Swag, thanks. I'll have to do more research to understand the previous champion that you mention, too.
04:50:11 <ais523> and GitHub allows for links that are tied to the git hash
04:50:24 <sorear> https://docs.github.com/en/repositories/archiving-a-github-repository/referencing-and-citing-content huh, there's Official Guidance now
04:51:00 <korvo> sorear: Something I've thought about a *lot*, and I presume you have too: what's the main obstacle to just implementing Metamath's Algorithm D as a low-level machine? That'd let us automatically compile quite a few interesting theories.
04:52:09 <korvo> I worry that proving that the cut-down algorithm is correct might be more effort than just proving that the implementation is actually Algo D. I also have an unhealthy desire for generalization.
04:53:13 <sorear> where is that defined?
04:55:25 <korvo> Um, probably The Book, metamath.pdf. IIRC it comes from Meredith's work and Tarski showed its completeness. Might be misremembering the name; Meredith called it something like "algorithm of detached inference".
04:56:31 <sorear> meredith's work to the extent I remember was exclusively propositional calculus, which has limited computational relevance
04:57:35 <sorear> https://projecteuclid.org/journals/notre-dame-journal-of-formal-logic/volume-36/issue-3/A-Finitely-Axiomatized-Formalization-of-Predicate-Calculus-with-Equality/10.1305/ndjfl/1040149359.pdf p. 5 has D
04:58:44 <sorear> it's a unification process which requires parsing the wffs, intuitively seems far more complicated than the parsing-free approach
04:59:39 <korvo> Yeah. But all of the parsing can be done at compile time; the actual unifications only have to proceed abstractly over some Herbrand structure, I think.
05:00:29 <korvo> I remember asking Mario something similar about whether we could mechanically extract a CFG from a Metamath database. IIRC he was like "yeah but why?"
05:02:52 <sorear> you still need to recursively/iteratively process terms, track used and unused variables, etc
05:04:22 <sorear> fundamentally it's a tool to allow maximum proof reuse through metavariables, but that's useless in a TM context so zf2.nql works purely with object variables and fully concrete formulas
05:05:24 <korvo> That's fair. My notes on proof search in ETCS are full of similar hacks, but I think I went too far; I convinced myself that ETCS is obviously consistent and now I don't know what to search for.
05:07:03 <korvo> I haven't done ETCC yet. If I figure out how to compute Sammy then maybe a Sammy interpreter would be smaller than ETCC contradiction search.
05:07:27 <korvo> But I don't know how to compute Kan extensions in general and it seems to be a bit of an open problem.
05:08:31 <sorear> etcs/etcc/sammy; there's a wiki article for kan but i've always been terrible at categories
05:08:49 <korvo> Category theory junk. ETCS is a theory of sets and functions; ETCS + Choice + Replacement is bi-interpretable with ZFC. ETCC is a theory of categories and functors, and Sammy's an esoteric language describing constructions in ETCC.
05:09:25 <korvo> No worries. I literally cannot hold a functor correctly; I'm always mixing up its variance and domains.
05:09:32 <sorear> zf2 _is_ general enough to express an arbitrary grammatically unambiguous metamath database with minor/"obvious" changes
05:10:46 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166161&oldid=158865 * None1 * (+615)
05:14:27 <korvo> Yeah! I wouldn't ask if I didn't see it in the code history. I want to have a strong basis from which to evaluate CatsAreFluffy's work, since it seems like they're doing lots of small tweaks to the low-level proof statements without a high-level justification or verification.
05:17:32 <korvo> I figure that I won't know until I write more NQL, but did I miss anything when hacking out the wiki page? I got globals and procedures, natural numbers, assignments and lookups, if- and while-statements, and the history.
05:17:46 <korvo> Oh! So I forgot arithmetic.
05:20:37 <sorear> the big improvement recently seems to be a switch from fixed length to variable length program counters, which is something I carefully considered before deciding it wasn't possible, my big goal is to understand what was actually done there
05:21:33 <sorear> it's a fairly boring algol/C clone (even has call by name!), if you caught the lisp, forth, and perl 6 references take a cookie
05:23:13 <sorear> there's if-decr and the builtin mechanism, not sure about "history"
05:25:17 <korvo> There's the 2016 theorem, the related language Laconic, and probably will be a new chapter after we get all of these new commits wrangled.
05:26:36 <sorear> ah, the history of nql as described in the wiki page, thought you were talking about "history" as an internal feature of the language
05:27:08 <korvo> Oh, ha, sorry. Bad with words tonight.
05:29:55 <sorear> i'll most likely merge the improvements if I manage to understand them
05:31:14 <sorear> part of the goal being to understand catsarefluffy's subprogram register machine well enough to explain it in prose
05:35:18 <korvo> Cool. No rush. My goal is only to have a git commit that can build the rest of the book, and that can provide an apples-to-apples comparison of everybody's NQL programs. I don't want anybody's old code to be unfairly compared to somebody's new result just because of a compiler difference!
05:35:53 <korvo> The BB Gauge. It's basically a living book, even though it's just a cruddy little website.
05:36:27 <korvo> Anyway, I have one commit that makes everything build for me, and I'll send that for review.
05:45:08 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166162&oldid=164204 * Corbin * (+803) /* Overview */ Document arithmetic and comparisons. (Everybody do the monus! The monus is a dance! Everybody is a genius! Who knows it in advance!)
05:48:35 <b_jonas> so recently a new user registered on the esowiki and wrote that they're interested in a language that I had documented. that means it's worth to document esoteric languages on the wiki. I'm just mentioning this just in case you ever despair about the state of the wiki and all the junk there is on
05:53:36 <korvo> b_jonas: I appreciate that, thanks.
05:54:41 <b_jonas> and they fixed a mistake where I documented that language incorrectly. or they introduced a mistake, I don't really know.
05:55:42 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166163&oldid=166162 * Corbin * (+180) /* Procedures */ Document switch-statements somewhat. My understanding of the limitations here is from reading the grammar and AST.
05:56:23 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166111
05:59:15 <b_jonas> they're not a new user, they wrote that they were interested in that language back in year 2022
06:00:43 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166164&oldid=66278 * Zzo38 * (+71)
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10:13:47 <ais523> hmm, that complexity class argument on the NQL page – it's not completely obvious to me that ZFC being able to prove itself inconsistent implies that it actually *is* inconsistent
10:15:21 <ais523> (because it doesn't seem obviously necessary for it to have enough introspection to be able to get from there to a contradiction, and being able to prove false statements also doesn't imply that a system is inconsistent)
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12:14:27 <HackEso> 352) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 510) <fungot> CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects
12:14:52 <int-e> oh, I should've known that #352 would come up again
12:15:21 <int-e> `` quote friday | paste
12:15:23 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6670
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13:11:29 <sorear> ZFC+Not(Con(ZFC)) is a perfectly consistent theory (assuming Con(ZFC)), any model must merely have an "inconsistency proof" as a non-standard natural, this is well known
13:12:44 <int-e> I keep wondering what separates a standard model of ZFC from others.
13:17:48 <sorear> short answer is that a standard model contains objects which correspond to the metatheory
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13:21:14 <int-e> Cool, but then we're in the situation where it's meta theories all the way down.
13:21:41 <int-e> Now I can delude myself into believing that there's a unique standard model for Peano Arithmetic, but set theory is much richer.
13:23:05 <int-e> And ZFC (the first-order axiom schema version) has a countable model... and that's not the standard model... or is it...
13:23:26 <int-e> Well, I find it very confusing :)
13:35:31 <sorear> model theory in general is infinitary, if you want to work concretely you need to translate whatever into the language of proofs
13:40:21 <int-e> Yeah, fortunately the answer to this standard model puzzle is irrelevant to doing math. No impact on the real world either. :)
14:12:12 <korvo> int-e: Fortunately, in second-order logic, there's only *the* one unique natural numbers.
14:12:32 <korvo> But yeah, if one doesn't know that then non-standard nats are going to always be spooky. Appropriate for October, at least.
14:17:04 <int-e> korvo: Sure, but then you get that natural numbers are unique in each model of set theory, and it's still relative to picking a model of that ;)
14:18:01 <int-e> (The fundamental issue will always be this infinite stack of meta-theories.)
14:18:39 <int-e> Anyway. It is fun to ponder, but I don't expect any answers. I'll happily leave that to philosophers ;)
14:19:08 <korvo> int-e: Yeah. At the same time, we can imagine that second-order logic, which presupposes those sets, has *enough* subsets of natural numbers. There's some nasty subsets like 0♯ whose existence has implications, but just taking a finite or cofinite set isn't a problem.
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14:56:38 <esolangs> [[Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166165&oldid=154622 * Corbin * (+1270) Stub a section on halting. Most of the good stuff's already in [[computable]], but the overview isn't stated elsewhere.
14:57:22 <korvo> Not really liking the <math> tags. They look alright but they don't show up reliably in previews, and they only create a consistent article appearance when used throughout the page.
15:01:29 <korvo> Anyway, with the two theorems added there, and given LEM for proof existence (either a proof does or doesn't exist relative to some axioms), the statements at [[NQL]] or [[Laconic]] are valid. I might make a fresh page or a section at [[Turing machine]] giving a generalized justification.
15:02:31 <korvo> The confusing wording that I used is standard, going back to Russell, but it *is* confusing for sure. It's not obvious that the reader is supposed to read one sentence at a time and take 5min to think about it.
15:05:33 <int-e> . o O ( maybe add some Rice for flav... never mind )
15:06:07 <korvo> (Nah, Rice is bland without Curry.)
15:06:10 <int-e> (the last sentence sounds like Rice)
15:07:14 <korvo> I should read more Rice. I don't know much about them other than that they were a student of Turing.
15:08:26 <int-e> Oh I mean the theorem named after the person. I know nothing about the person either.
15:13:06 <korvo> I'm still thinking about ais523's complaint. ZFC's conservative over ZF, so we can give up Choice and LEM for a moment. If ZF |- ~Con(ZF) then that proof can be run through BHK to give a construction of 0=1 and from that a construction of anything else, so ZF really would be inconsistent.
15:19:39 <korvo> The rest of it's given by the first-order logical tools. If implication really gives a Heyting algebra (a lattice with implication, basically) then falsity really does imply everything else by virtue of being at the bottom of a lattice. This is just a decategorification! This is why paraconsistent logics have to break disjunction; they have to break *some* law of lattices.
16:03:09 <fizzie> There's a new "Native MathML" mode (as well as a MathJax mode) for Extension:Math that I should probably try out. At the moment, it's set up in the default Mathoid-as-a-service mode, pointing at Wikipedia.
16:03:24 <fizzie> The new modes don't have the image fallback, so they'll either require a modern browser or loading MathJax, but OTOH they don't depend on a planned-to-be-discontinued Wikimedia API endpoint either. And might even work reliably in previews.
16:09:10 <korvo> The compatibility matrix looks pretty good these days: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/MathML#browser_compatibility
16:19:06 <int-e> korvo: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/compat-matrix.png
16:19:44 <int-e> (no JS is why, and yes I know that's a tiny niche of users)
16:19:58 <korvo> Good times. I use NoScript myself; it's worth the effort.
16:46:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ivava * New user account
16:54:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166166&oldid=166096 * Ivava * (+199)
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17:09:36 <esolangs> [[Syzygy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166167&oldid=166131 * Hotcrystal0 * (+5) Better first sentence
17:11:52 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166168 * Ivava * (+666) Created page with "Hi everyone! I'm Ivava. (im not have the name "Ivava" at real!!! , its just nickname) I'm from Russia and I'll be contributing to esolangs.org! When I was 12 I saw a cyber-hacker spamming ads for explicit content... And while I'm still 12, I want to learn all programmi
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18:15:59 <esolangs> [[-hacker]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166169 * Ivava * (+1183) Created page with "{{stub}} '''-hacker''' is personal [[User:Ivava]] 's project, that was posted as [[esoteric programming language]]. ==Why "-hacker"? == Well.. Simply.. Shorter.. Well, if you don't like non ethical hackers, you can use it as a game..? -hacker is joke esoteric language
18:17:09 <esolangs> [[User:Ivava]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166170&oldid=166168 * Ivava * (-12) /* Esolangs list */
18:30:01 <korvo> Jujutsu really is a game-changing approach. I can fearlessly add remotes of many downstreams and add their bookmarks without feeling like I'm drowning in branches. Instead, I feel like I get to choose which bookmarks are worth integrating.
18:41:46 <esolangs> [[Not-Quite-Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166171&oldid=166163 * Corbin * (+161) /* Procedures */ Incorporate a semantics update from 2017.
19:41:10 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166172&oldid=165882 * Hotcrystal0 * (+1)
21:30:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166173&oldid=166125 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+47) /* N */ Added my esolang Nonstraightforward after 5 months
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22:18:20 <esolangs> [[1 Bit, an eight byte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166174 * Tommyaweosme * (+210) Created page with "1 Bit, an eight byte is the worst programming language. There are no quines. == Commands == 0 - output 1 1 - output 0 That's it. == Programs == === [[Hello World|1]] === 0 === [[99 Bottles of Beer|0]] === 1"
22:19:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:1 Bit, a quarter byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166175&oldid=166132 * Tommyaweosme * (+109)
22:40:23 <esolangs> [[User:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166176&oldid=165854 * Waffelz * (+49)
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23:01:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * EvyLah * moved [[BFasm]] to [[BFasm (discontinued)]]: wafflez requests to have bfasm, I don't really update this page, so I will move it
23:01:52 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * EvyLah * moved [[Talk:BFasm]] to [[Talk:BFasm (discontinued)]]: wafflez requests to have bfasm, I don't really update this page, so I will move it
23:02:27 <esolangs> [[BFasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166181&oldid=166178 * EvyLah * (+19) Removed redirect to [[BFasm (discontinued)]]
23:02:48 <esolangs> [[User:Waffelz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166182&oldid=166176 * Aadenboy * (+30) displaytitle lowercase
23:02:49 <esolangs> [[BFasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166183&oldid=166181 * EvyLah * (+1)
23:03:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:BFasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166184&oldid=166180 * EvyLah * (-39) Blanked the page
23:05:25 <esolangs> [[BFasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166185&oldid=166183 * EvyLah * (+44)
23:05:56 <esolangs> [[BFasm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166186&oldid=166185 * EvyLah * (+0)
23:10:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166187&oldid=149421 * EvyLah * (+295) /* waffelz' Talk Page */ notified because I moved bfasm
23:20:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166188&oldid=166187 * Waffelz * (+188)
23:27:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Waffelz * moved [[BFasm]] to [[BFASM]]: Misspelled title
23:27:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Waffelz * moved [[Talk:BFasm]] to [[Talk:BFASM]]: Misspelled title