*A< (1*)<> > // increment L1 *B< (1*)<> > // increment L1 again 

 *A< (1*)<> > // L1 = A *B<          // decrement L1 by one B t
< 1759351211 600843 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759352906 602128 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759353171 727134 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759354914 60307 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759355257 783252 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759356986 321917 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759358064 455753 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1759358714 202782 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1759362301 136883 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759362462 346502 :integral_!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1759362462 534696 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759362477 654418 :integral_!sid296274@user/integral NICK :integral
> 1759362953 630274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165436&oldid=165421 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1038) 10
> 1759363045 473976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165437&oldid=165436 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+13) 10
> 1759365767 117663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165438&oldid=165411 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+130) 10/* Conditionals */
> 1759365864 242257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165439&oldid=163026 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+49) 10
> 1759366291 497679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng/List of the users that is also in conwaylife.com14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165440&oldid=165439 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4) 10assuming "independent" means "found by own means"
> 1759372205 950260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070 bits, an eight byte14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165441 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+674) 10Created page with "0 Bit, an eight byte is an assembly language for a 0-bit CPU, made by [[user:tommyaweosme]]. With 1/8 byte of memory, this machine could store 1 instruction. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Name !! Meaning |- |  || END || END. Print
> 1759372223 80992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070 bits, an eight byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165442&oldid=165441 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+0) 10/* Interpeter in Javascript */
> 1759372290 396510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070 bits, an eight byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165443&oldid=165442 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1) 10
< 1759372514 360831 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Came across some old, but relevant, slides: http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-complexity/ITA-software-travel-complexity.pdf
< 1759372645 116767 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :“The general travel planning problem is unsolvable, meaning that no computer, no matter how long it spends, can find an answer to every travel query (or determine that none exists) for every database of flights and fares that the airlines can publish.  […]  In the case of ITA Software's engine as of early 2003, it is possible to simulate TMs with small numbers of states for between 10 and 20 steps on tapes of length from 10 to 20.”
> 1759375110 721466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165444&oldid=165438 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+159) 10/* Operation Commands */
< 1759385254 277321 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When a MPEG-TS stream is available in multiple qualities, how to know which one is appropriate for recording onto a DVD? (I think it will need to be converted to MPEG-PS, but that is not my question.)
< 1759385301 668659 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My idea was to multiply the file size for ten seconds by the duration and compare that with the DVD capacity, but that does not consider such things as the other files in the DVD and the conversion to MPEG-PS, and probably other things I had missed as well.)
< 1759387296 406481 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759390329 540342 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759392715 603861 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759393955 945734 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759393992 66251 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165445&oldid=165444 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+174) 10/* Operation Commands */
> 1759395188 94703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165446&oldid=164093 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+250) 10
> 1759395203 365210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165447&oldid=165446 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (-2) 10/* Turing incomplete category */
> 1759395318 878597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165448 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+535) 10Created page with "'''Incomplete BrainFuck''' is made by [[User:Jk.NDC]] to be functional almost exactly like [[brainfuck]], except it is turing incomplete.  This is achieved via limiting the machine to only do a maximum of 1.2696403e+73 operations or 55!(factorial), making it 
> 1759395985 485718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165449&oldid=165448 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+69) 10
> 1759396038 869949 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165450&oldid=165449 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+2) 10
< 1759396243 604882 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heya
< 1759396245 346770 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION has his 042nd Birthday today. The Answer to Life, the Multiverses, and everything!      😌

> 1759396301 497270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jk.NDC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165451&oldid=165409 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+172) 10/* Projects */
> 1759396444 945493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165452&oldid=165450 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+77) 10
< 1759400187 69687 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1759402992 907175 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1759403564 299780 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759404853 577104 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1759404866 136563 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759405039 426041 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1759408686 675289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165453&oldid=165425 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+309) 10
> 1759409425 69294 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165454&oldid=165447 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+4) 10/* Turing incomplete category */ not to be confused with [[Iterate]]
> 1759409500 565886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Isec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165455&oldid=165384 5* 03U 5* (+4) 10
< 1759411074 565683 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759411163 378320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Isec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165456&oldid=165455 5* 03U 5* (+1) 10
> 1759411494 642857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165457 5* 03Corbin 5* (+178) 10I appreciate the effort but I'm not sure that it's quite that simple.
> 1759411859 477577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165458&oldid=165454 5* 03Corbin 5* (+293) 10/* Turing incomplete category */ Good news!
< 1759413486 61105 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1759415910 749370 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759416578 281626 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759416591 213964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165459&oldid=165453 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+633) 10
> 1759416770 91031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165460&oldid=165132 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+165) 10/* User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character */ new section
> 1759417071 780992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165461&oldid=165420 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1001) 10OSC
> 1759417636 975941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165462&oldid=165459 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+153) 10
< 1759418339 914274 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759419995 624781 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1759420332 538718 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759424324 812666 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759424754 783102 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759425087 172704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03WebNiko 5*  10New user account
< 1759426259 502010 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1759427040 106440 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1 - https://znc.in
> 1759427497 441253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165463&oldid=165397 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+252) 10
> 1759427572 719399 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:WebNiko14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165464 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+56) 10Created page with "Hi guys i'm WebNiko from Brazil i'm a dev from Holyfuck."
> 1759427609 610588 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165465 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+820) 10Created page with "== HollyFuck == '''Creator:''' WebNiko (april7w7 in github) '''Year:''' 2025 '''Type:''' Esoteric / interpreted '''Description:''' Language that mixes Brainfuck and Holy-C with funny commands.  === Commands === * fuckint  =  ; // declare
> 1759427878 151363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165466&oldid=165394 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+15) 10
> 1759428861 761194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165467&oldid=165465 5* 03WebNiko 5* (-2) 10/* HollyFuck */
> 1759429045 94202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Math14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165468&oldid=165435 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1040) 10implement exponent and nth root algorithms
< 1759429170 498893 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759429616 635166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165469&oldid=165461 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+174) 10
< 1759429701 40494 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt JOIN #esolangs Artea :Artea ElFo
< 1759431692 902210 :Everything!~Everythin@88.155.5.189 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1759433534 930202 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1759436819 623673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165470&oldid=165467 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+49) 10adding categories
> 1759436894 303485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165471&oldid=165470 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+18) 10year
< 1759438159 750436 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759438783 127267 :Everything!~Everythin@88.155.5.189 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1759439337 808967 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1759441291 886741 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1759442055 732026 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759448476 700638 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1759459141 844998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165472&oldid=165457 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+165) 10
> 1759459182 837085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165473&oldid=165452 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+17) 10
> 1759459537 752333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jk.NDC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165474&oldid=165451 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+71) 10/* semi-Weekly Riddle */
< 1759460241 474909 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1759461857 930935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are there other examples of bounded Brainfuck? It could be worth making yet another clearinghouse page if so.
> 1759461901 927077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Incomplete BrainFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165475&oldid=165473 5* 03Corbin 5* (+36) 10Categories.
> 1759463227 137863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165476&oldid=165462 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-2) 10
> 1759463286 350437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165477&oldid=165445 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+352) 10/* Functions */
> 1759466412 752605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165478&oldid=165476 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+4) 10A little "golfing"
> 1759467349 159810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165479&oldid=165477 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+72) 10/* Clarification of Terms and Stuff */
> 1759470388 964853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165480&oldid=165479 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+56) 10/* Functions */
> 1759470408 784659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165481&oldid=165480 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+2) 10/* Functions */
> 1759470524 259992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165482&oldid=165481 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+76) 10/* Operation Commands */
> 1759470933 469700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165483&oldid=165482 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+122) 10/* Functions */
> 1759470998 601085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165484&oldid=165483 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+0) 10/* Clarification of Terms and Stuff */
> 1759471536 117480 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jk.NDC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165485&oldid=165474 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+140) 10/* Projects */
< 1759471538 800336 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Quit: "for more information, visit https://citrons.xyz"
< 1759471553 787941 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1759471836 423059 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759472825 969375 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1759474599 854107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Isec TC proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165486&oldid=165387 5* 03U 5* (-359) 10Blanked the page
< 1759476882 160880 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759478574 216259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165487&oldid=165478 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+12) 10
> 1759478856 423453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165488&oldid=165487 5* 03Pifrited 5* (+53) 10
> 1759479360 287516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165489&oldid=165460 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+107) 10/* User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character */
> 1759481202 553558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165490 5* 03U 5* (+351) 10Created page with "Op increasing A, equalizing B to A and if A-B 1759481388 420696 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165491&oldid=165490 5* 03U 5* (-351) 10Blanked the page
> 1759482761 40513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165492&oldid=165491 5* 03U 5* (+324) 10
> 1759483184 877305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165493&oldid=165492 5* 03U 5* (+10) 10
> 1759483947 331580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165494&oldid=152866 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+147) 10
< 1759484645 323574 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759486096 896580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Isec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165495&oldid=165456 5* 03U 5* (-135) 10Blanked the page
> 1759486111 172205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IBSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165496&oldid=165493 5* 03U 5* (-334) 10Blanked the page
< 1759486230 228881 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1759487617 888039 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1759487971 109432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165497 5* 03U 5* (+744) 10Created page with "x=0, y=1. 1st op - increasion of current cell. 2nd - jump from x to y. finally getting x/y. interpreter on C(1st op as 0, 2nd as any other, after ] must be =[, ops through , and ] at end): const unsigned char main(void){{const unsigned char A[(unsigned char)0];unsigned char B
> 1759488050 287094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165498&oldid=165497 5* 03U 5* (+0) 10
> 1759488059 291296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165499&oldid=165498 5* 03U 5* (+6) 10
> 1759488086 643619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165500&oldid=165499 5* 03U 5* (-32) 10
< 1759490299 966373 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759491004 396263 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759491058 995242 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1759491194 936640 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1759491314 607410 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1759491435 72639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165501&oldid=165488 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+47) 10
> 1759493539 819895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165502&oldid=165501 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+33) 10
< 1759494340 365017 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1759495839 610298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165503&oldid=165502 5* 03Pifrited 5* (-27) 10
> 1759496051 247803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165504&oldid=165500 5* 03U 5* (-10) 10
< 1759496601 103165 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1759496602 922755 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:48e3:4bde:a27a:5817 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759496622 132623 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6((+)*13>(-)*13>)*6((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]])*5>)*3
< 1759496622 164764 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: System busy; ask again later.
< 1759496649 49191 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6((+)*13>(-)*13>)*6((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]])*5>)*3
< 1759496649 76589 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: System busy; ask again later.
< 1759496665 953685 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6((+)*13>(-)*13>)*6((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]])*5>)*3
< 1759496665 981128 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: System busy; ask again later.
< 1759496697 678881 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^echo !ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6((+)*13>(-)*13>)*6((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]])*5>)*3
< 1759496697 746585 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6((+)*13>(-)*13>)*6((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+- ...
< 1759496697 774259 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: System busy; ask again later.
< 1759496697 908398 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :zemhill: ya know, that guy
< 1759496707 594564 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :help
< 1759496740 272393 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759496819 511552 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759497498 221932 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1759497511 586170 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759497517 995573 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1759497542 65981 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759499290 64177 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh.
< 1759499298 992113 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest foo <
< 1759499299 45544 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: System busy; ask again later.
< 1759499303 544276 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is bork.
< 1759499571 876516 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's gone wrong in some way, but my logs on this aren't particularly informative: https://0x0.st/KMVP.txt
< 1759499671 117446 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even remember how that whole machinery works.
< 1759499783 746028 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think those bits have something to do with handling submissions sent over the web, which arrive on a Unix domain socket.
< 1759499854 514305 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh, I'll just restart it and wait to see if it breaks again.
< 1759499858 151010 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759499874 606512 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs HackEso :zemhill
< 1759499879 827497 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest foo <
< 1759499879 878701 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie.foo: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
< 1759499893 376454 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs ::shrug:
< 1759499931 549005 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I started a from-scratch rewrite of that whole mess at some point (as one does) and then stopped halfway through (as one also does).
< 1759500318 957012 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1759500566 969927 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Huh, what the...
< 1759500697 536764 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I guess it's being used through the web.
< 1759500711 136637 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :web.torshavn: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-16)
< 1759500757 100879 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1759500780 745219 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[++([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(--+-)*-1]-<-[<(--+-)*-1]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6<(+)*43>((+)*17>(-)*17>)*4>>>>((>[-[++([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]])*5>)*3
< 1759500781 75127 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points 15.12, score 44.55, rank 2/47
< 1759500927 956728 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost...
< 1759500930 756383 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs : that was amongst the most sophisticated 1-line rush program, only to be suppressed by 2/3
< 1759501202 12331 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1759503443 326587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Marcel36414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165505 5* 03Marcel364 5* (+485) 10Added everything lol XD
< 1759503917 898377 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1759505765 619990 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759507487 645115 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759508786 534713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5*  10New user account
> 1759509019 584513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165506&oldid=165463 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+297) 10
> 1759509866 693057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Satans Disciples GangLang $14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165507 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+2034) 10Created page with "Satan's Disciples GangLang is an output only esolang which prints a highly composable programmatic function that reads as "YO! I am the Gang Leader of the Satan's Disciples."  == Data storage ==  Data is stored ''at most'' in People's brains.  == Pr
> 1759510173 538901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Satans Disciples GangLang $14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165508&oldid=165507 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (-28) 10
> 1759510390 670654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Satans Disciples GangLang $14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165509&oldid=165508 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+32) 10
> 1759510481 831188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165510&oldid=118689 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+51) 10
> 1759510514 587362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165511&oldid=165510 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+2) 10
< 1759510824 766689 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1759512770 316854 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759515881 652306 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165512&oldid=165511 5* 03Corbin 5* (+24) 10A bit of cleanup for a joke language.
> 1759515924 467237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GangLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165513&oldid=165512 5* 03Corbin 5* (+18) 10Tracked down the year from the reference implementation's commit history.
> 1759516016 332941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Satans Disciples GangLang $14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165514&oldid=165509 5* 03Corbin 5* (-181) 10Not TC. Not even obviously a language. In general, output-only systems aren't going to be TC.
< 1759516180 388237 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759518673 421326 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759520495 502693 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759521466 783502 :user3456!user3456@user/user3456 PART #esolangs :Leaving
< 1759522859 634728 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759523247 641245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165515&oldid=165494 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+412) 10
> 1759523319 511293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fucktion14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165516&oldid=165437 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+6) 10/* Fucktion Generator */  replaced the precent thing into a format-string
< 1759523379 728945 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759523415 577608 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759523545 912377 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759524067 344878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07T+Riangle14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165517 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+871) 10Created page with "T+Riangle is a esolang Inspired by [[R + S|R + S]]  it operates on a left infinite array of bits and 7 bits of state.  At every step it picks the 7 bits of state for all the bits apart from the MSB, and the MSB becomes the next bit. if the bit is at position 0 then 
> 1759524200 282899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165518&oldid=165466 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+16) 10i added my 'lovely' language
> 1759525394 257336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07T+Riangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165519&oldid=165517 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+33) 10
< 1759525931 445034 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought in a operating system design about how many system calls, and I had considered the possibility to have only one system call, in order to avoid some problems with synchronization. The parameters would be: blocking flag, hard yield flag, and the (possibly empty) set of capabilities to use and the operations to do with them (receive, send, discard, lock, etc).
< 1759527554 107943 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759538244 114725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Pifrited/Lang full of special character14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165520&oldid=165503 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+53) 10
< 1759541601 826737 :mscibing!~ajwade@bras-base-toroon0648w-grc-42-184-148-88-98.dsl.bell.ca QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated!
< 1759543421 413034 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759547646 111114 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1759548090 390931 :lmt!uid107697@id-107697.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lmt :lmt
< 1759548452 706946 :molson!~molson@2001:48f8:7040::729 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1759549994 3985 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have an opinion about that?
> 1759551472 341762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teiwaz14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165521 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+37207) 10Created page with "Teiwaz is a programming language designed by PSTF. In the timeline 284436, it was designed by Wolfgang Thinnosk in Scandinavia Union as variant of Python which was created by Guido von Rossum of Netherlands in the timeline 1.  The document is also in the timeline 
> 1759552138 292969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165522&oldid=165518 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+40) 10
> 1759552663 901203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165523&oldid=164632 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+62) 10
> 1759552967 91808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165524&oldid=164600 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+109) 10
> 1759555096 317711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165525&oldid=160231 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+3304) 10
> 1759555163 268561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165526&oldid=165525 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+24) 10
< 1759555391 624668 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1759556095 43273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165527&oldid=165526 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+264) 10/* Common extension */
> 1759556157 511100 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165528&oldid=165527 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+0) 10/* Common extension */
> 1759556179 704910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UserEdited/Versions14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165529 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+137) 10Created page with "What does TBR mean? Is there something special about it?--~~~~"
> 1759556181 251883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165530&oldid=165528 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+0) 10/* Common extension */
> 1759556779 337745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WhatLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165531&oldid=165530 5* 03DGCK81LNN 5* (+560) 10/* Builtin functions */
> 1759557031 681376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Finder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165532&oldid=165328 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1) 10/* Computational class */
> 1759557253 850650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165533&oldid=165484 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+1047) 10/* Conditionals and If */
> 1759557340 903068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165534&oldid=165533 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+146) 10/* Clarification of Terms and Stuff */
> 1759557943 984578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165535&oldid=165534 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+656) 10
> 1759558248 730967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165536&oldid=165535 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+181) 10/* General/Misc. */
< 1759558287 161960 :lmt!uid107697@id-107697.helmsley.irccloud.com PART :#esolangs
> 1759560152 32813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fraction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165537&oldid=165504 5* 03U 5* (-708) 10Blanked the page
> 1759560486 589978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TDQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165538&oldid=165043 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1) 10/* Translation */
> 1759561967 985842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wuht14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165539&oldid=165536 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (-2) 10/* Condition Writing */
< 1759562093 128869 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759563992 513860 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, are inveterates a group of animals?
< 1759563992 992158 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: i have a few primitive types. e.g. completions and similar prompty stuff " popup" in buffers... it looks neat... it'd be the fnord
< 1759564612 538895 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1759564641 454412 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1759566346 30785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emblema14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165540 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+2173) 10New Turing-complete language
> 1759566383 599138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165541&oldid=165329 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+14) 10/* 2025 */
< 1759568748 723124 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759570755 231392 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1759572733 532255 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1759573033 549590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vertical tab 'N14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165542&oldid=157010 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (-2) 10/* Java */ Remove trailing new line
> 1759573250 496423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vertical tab 'N14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165543&oldid=165542 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+105) 10
> 1759573276 744861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:TenBillionPlusOne14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165544&oldid=158796 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+162) 10/* Why do you hate yourself so much? */ new section
> 1759574339 591223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165545 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+434) 10[[User:Vertical tab 'N]] went unnoticed, so I created this
> 1759574698 668021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BRaInFUCK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165546 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+274) 10Created page with "The musician's name gives a syntax error - first it prints a null byte, and then it tries to end a non-existent loop before attempting to start another one. ~~~~"
< 1759574805 446155 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759574959 773011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165547&oldid=165373 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+11) 10
> 1759575097 945389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165548&oldid=165522 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+17) 10/* B */ [[Brafuck]]
> 1759575469 146756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165549&oldid=165545 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+202) 10
> 1759575668 453384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165550&oldid=165549 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+16) 10
> 1759575687 552556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165551&oldid=165550 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+27) 10
> 1759575757 367786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165552&oldid=165551 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+64) 10
> 1759575870 169752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165553&oldid=165552 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+16) 10
> 1759576027 150760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165554&oldid=165553 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+16) 10
> 1759576070 312739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165555&oldid=165554 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+36) 10
> 1759576579 437917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165556&oldid=165555 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+143) 10
> 1759576688 721990 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165557&oldid=165556 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+15) 10
> 1759576796 35138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165558&oldid=165557 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+17) 10
> 1759576941 185979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165559&oldid=165558 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+56) 10
< 1759577631 586168 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1759577666 996844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165560&oldid=165559 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+43) 10
< 1759577676 884691 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759577711 796491 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1759577809 721151 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165561&oldid=165560 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+32) 10
> 1759577901 922467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165562&oldid=164170 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+1482) 10
> 1759577961 354222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165563&oldid=163528 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+51) 10
> 1759578318 583047 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UserEdited/Versions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165564&oldid=165529 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+330) 10
> 1759578355 763689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165565&oldid=165561 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+18) 10
< 1759578359 863703 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759578520 296592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165566&oldid=165565 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+32) 10
< 1759578819 269176 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1759578985 881745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brafuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165567&oldid=165566 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+25) 10
> 1759578994 309644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165568&oldid=165242 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+31) 10/* My targets */
> 1759579030 566941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MihaiEso14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165569&oldid=165568 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+11) 10/* My targets */
> 1759579219 68704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:DGCK81LNN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165570 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+176) 10Created page with "Help us expand [[User:Vertical tab 'N]] and [[Brafuck]] ~~~~"
> 1759579485 568015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vertical tab 'N14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165571&oldid=165543 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+57) 10/* Brainfuck */
< 1759579778 567388 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759579802 373524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Vertical tab 'N14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165572&oldid=165571 5* 03Vertical Tab 'N 5* (+117) 10/* Mendeleev */
> 1759581975 178236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165573&oldid=165562 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+820) 10
< 1759583991 192596 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1759584060 709156 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1759584657 12297 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759584775 868951 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759590690 101677 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1759590718 648345 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon http://127.0.0.1:3000/
< 1759590718 715581 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: Failed to open TCP connection to 127.0.0.1:3000 (Connection refused - connect(2) for 127.0.0.1:3000)
< 1759590747 506426 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759590760 353471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol?
< 1759590764 242866 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1759590823 100925 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1759590829 611413 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[-[-[++++[+[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%9]>)*21]]]]]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(-)*132(>)*13(>[-[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*16]-<-[<(-)*132(>)*13(>[-[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*16]+((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6<(+)*43>((+)*17>(-)*17>)*4>>>>>((>[-[+([(+[{(-)*16(
< 1759590829 638996 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: parse error: starting ( without a matching )
< 1759590830 111084 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :-[{[-][++-+-[++-+-]]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]]+)*2>)*4([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-[++-+-]]>}])%18}])%16]>)*-1
< 1759590882 819024 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon >+>-(>)*6(>[-[-[-[++++[+[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%9]>)*21]]]]]])*5(<-<+)*5<+[<<(-)*132(>)*13(>[-[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*16]-<-[<(-)*132(>)*13(>[-[+([(+[{(-)*11(-[{(-)*97[-][++-]>}])%13}])%11]>)*21]])*16]+
< 1759590882 934853 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points -17.98, score 8.65, rank 47/47 (-45)
< 1759590883 318355 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :((+)*5>(-)*5>)*6(<(-)*7<(+)*7)*6<(+)*43>((+)*17>(-)*17>)*4>>>>>((>[-[+([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-[++-+-]]>}])%18}])%16]>)*21]]+)*2>)*4([(+[{(-)*16(-[{[-][++-+-[++-+-]]>}])%18}])%16]>)*-1
< 1759591105 995761 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://pastebin.com/raw/nCDR7aQ6
< 1759591106 523212 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points 19.29, score 53.15, rank 2/47 (--)
< 1759591124 471886 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust epsilon https://pastebin.com/raw/nCDR7aQ6
< 1759591124 945372 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points 19.29, score 53.15, rank 2/47 (--)
> 1759591155 406416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Math14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165574&oldid=165468 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+771) 10implement floored logB(A) and categorize
< 1759591181 400514 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://127.0.0.1:3000/
< 1759591181 470272 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: Failed to open TCP connection to 127.0.0.1:3000 (Connection refused - connect(2) for 127.0.0.1:3000)
< 1759591201 223416 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://127.0.0.1:3000/
< 1759591201 291848 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: Failed to open TCP connection to 127.0.0.1:3000 (Connection refused - connect(2) for 127.0.0.1:3000)
< 1759591218 958920 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1759591410 125408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's next, file:// ?
< 1759591440 908404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest don'tmindme file:///etc/passwd
< 1759591440 935634 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Program name (don'tmindme) is restricted to characters in [a-zA-Z0-9_-], sorry.
< 1759591452 588317 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest dontmindme file:///etc/passwd
< 1759591452 773029 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e.dontmindme: points -31.52, score 4.04, rank 47/47
< 1759591461 344618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm!
< 1759591492 93133 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh it hopefully interpreted that as an empty program
< 1759591562 785187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest dontmindme file:///usr/bin/[
< 1759591562 812165 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: parse error: starting [ without a matching ]
< 1759591564 328459 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :;)
> 1759592142 56887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07T+Riangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165575&oldid=165519 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
> 1759592158 484850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07T+Riangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165576&oldid=165575 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+2) 10
> 1759592998 772893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png10]]"
< 1759593107 384429 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
> 1759593297 653582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165578 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+70) 10Created page with "[[File:$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png|thumb|alt=nope(4)|nope program]]"
< 1759593327 119247 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1759593342 733664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Corbin 5*  10moved [[02User:Vertical tab 'N10]] to [[Vertical tab 'N]]: Program form (output-only challenge), not user. Heads up: user page once belonged to alt of ColorfulGalaxy.
> 1759593378 449058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165581&oldid=165578 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (+45) 10
> 1759593391 917012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165582&oldid=165581 5* 03SDGL4RNG 5* (-20) 10/* Nope(4) */
> 1759594232 361297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheSpiderNinjas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165583&oldid=164805 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+11) 10
> 1759594316 457274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigq14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165584 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+1385) 10Created page with "  == Stuff == 
 ! True  ? False  !?! Binary, ! for 1 and ? for 0  1 Variable  {7} Number, only works as a value  0 = !?! Set a var to a value ^= for specifically bool #= for specifically int  0? [ ] If the value is true run the block of code  0? < > While the v
> 1759594336 200852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165585&oldid=165584 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+35) 10
> 1759594757 887890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165586&oldid=165585 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+135) 10
< 1759598522 862356 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1759598713 65754 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759599355 556899 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759601180 451875 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1759601733 955541 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1759602700 916625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165587&oldid=165469 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+775) 10B3/S23
< 1759603173 700818 :Everything!~Everythin@172.232.54.192 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1759603197 213782 :Everything!~Everythin@172.232.54.192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi all. Has anybody tried this as esolang? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyck_language Maybe, unlambda-type language?
< 1759604301 885168 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Everything: Sure. Many Lisps are Dyck. From my list, my language Cammy is Dyck and S-expressions are Dyck in general.
< 1759604404 840307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should add Dyck monoids to [[monoid]]. I don't know if we use them anywhere, but they might be useful for justifying why e.g. Brainfuck has a semantic monoid.
< 1759604817 690025 :Everything!~Everythin@172.232.54.192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No, without functions. Only nested parentheses. Is it possible?
< 1759605004 128595 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can write Iota weirdly with () = ι
< 1759605102 428456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or other languages with the same kind of syntax, e.g., https://treecalcul.us/
< 1759605296 971207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Everything: In general, *any* language is going to eventually yield something with interesting computational content. Do you have a goal in mind?
< 1759605451 915165 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :More interesting to me is e.g. the fact that Dyck grammars can be efficiently parsed mid-document; they are more efficient than CFGs when doing online text-editing, LSP processing, tree-sitting, etc.
< 1759606002 929426 :Everything!~Everythin@172.232.54.192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no specific idea, just curious.
< 1759606208 971575 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that the answer is that *the* Dyck language, balanced parens, is already a very well-known language. It's often just called BP. It's not esoteric at all.
> 1759606234 65756 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165588&oldid=164113 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+126) 10
< 1759606827 91141 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1759610679 101319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Math14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165589&oldid=165574 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+8) 10/* logB A (floored) */ indent
< 1759611230 936493 :Everything!~Everythin@172.232.54.192 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1759613759 995316 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759614248 766914 :molson!~molson@2001-48F8-7040-0-0-0-0-729-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1759614616 220192 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759614843 926637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?barinfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165590 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+375) 10Created page with "?brainfuck is a simple derivative of brainfuck that allows it to be non-deterministic. It adds one command.  the command:   ? if cell is 0 it stays that way, if the cell is positive it is set to a random number in the set {1,2,...,x} where x is the value
< 1759614903 592756 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1759614946 446834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?barinfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165591&oldid=165590 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+109) 10
> 1759615027 939372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?barinfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165592&oldid=165591 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
> 1759615171 846801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?barinfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165593&oldid=165592 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+166) 10
> 1759615197 595505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?barinfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165594&oldid=165593 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-649) 10Blanked the page
> 1759615222 414108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165595 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+649) 10Created page with "?brainfuck is a simple derivative of brainfuck that allows it to be non-deterministic. It adds one command.  the command:   ? if cell is 0 it stays that way, if the cell is positive it is set to a random number in the set {1,2,...,x} where x is the value
> 1759615236 966047 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165596&oldid=164434 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+16) 10
> 1759616288 641330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165597&oldid=165595 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+410) 10
> 1759616700 455070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165598&oldid=165597 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-15) 10
< 1759616705 423645 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759617495 597026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165599&oldid=165598 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+392) 10
> 1759617649 681113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165600&oldid=165599 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+30) 10
> 1759620602 176338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165601&oldid=165600 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+138) 10
> 1759620619 396121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165602&oldid=165601 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
< 1759624993 510313 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759627073 205787 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to record a video DVD on Linux from a MPEG-TS file with H.264 and AAC codec and keeping any existing EIA-608 captions in the recording?
< 1759629903 773971 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759629933 51384 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1759635058 335952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MCLMLI 5*  10New user account
< 1759637693 267611 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759637725 224953 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759642157 243100 :nitrix!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix-or-treat
> 1759644809 287779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165603&oldid=165588 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+236) 10
< 1759647331 64810 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759649575 165133 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emblema14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165604&oldid=165540 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+29) 10/* Description */
> 1759649587 791874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Emblema14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165605&oldid=165604 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+1) 10/* Description */
> 1759651520 821458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BytePusher14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165606&oldid=162819 5* 03Mad4j 5* (+306) 10/* Programs */
> 1759651738 387478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165607&oldid=153400 5* 03U 5* (+465) 10/* Deletion of Isec, Why Isec is turing swamp?, Isec TC proof, IBSE and Fraction. */ new section
< 1759653432 110730 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1759655737 239759 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning.
< 1759656620 297288 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1759658248 565698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165608 5* 03U 5* (+315) 10Created page with "using 2 0. op: if increased first is 0, second is increasing. at end first will be divided on second. interpreter on c(z: unsigned 16bit number of ops, after z= is it, memory(x and y) is signed 8bit):const unsigned char main(void){{char x=0b0,y=0b0;{unsigned short z=;while(z){x++;if
> 1759658405 492018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165609&oldid=165608 5* 03U 5* (+17) 10
< 1759659407 171496 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1759662471 127424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Chat Majest 5*  10New user account
> 1759663575 638703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165610 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+106) 10Created page with "'''LLvlN''' or Low-Level Nonsense is not a language, make LLvlN an actual language  [[Category:Low-level]]"
< 1759664052 587318 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759664089 580687 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1759664129 839938 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1759664698 786330 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1759664742 243886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakr14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165611 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+1449) 10Creation
> 1759664759 859025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fuckbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165612&oldid=164182 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+29) 10
> 1759664918 121711 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stakr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165613&oldid=165611 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+7) 10
< 1759665404 102669 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:79b7:f1d9:214a:8b71 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759666096 165986 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759668074 538465 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1759668157 749720 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1759672568 612726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165614&oldid=165573 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+8) 10Updated music player link
< 1759673330 401179 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759676065 723259 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1759676065 791733 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1759679215 116647 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1759679237 560643 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1759679393 111649 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:e41d:e135:abd4:db6f JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1759679911 252849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10deleted "[[02Why isec is turing swamp?10]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
> 1759679990 209359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10deleted "[[02Isec10]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
> 1759680062 795983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10deleted "[[02Isec TC proof10]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
> 1759680122 854224 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10deleted "[[02IBSE10]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
> 1759680148 860565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Fizzie 5*  10deleted "[[02Fraction10]]": Author request: author blanked the page, no edits from other users
> 1759680503 898053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165615&oldid=165607 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+709) 10/* Deletion of Isec, Why Isec is turing swamp?, Isec TC proof, IBSE and Fraction. */ Reply.
< 1759681774 402809 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759682434 302229 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759685791 710231 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759686671 934666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165616&oldid=165610 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+8947) 10Created comprehensive documentation for LLvlN esoteric programming language
> 1759686821 187806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165617&oldid=165616 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-24) 10Comet Created This In My Name With My Account Bru
> 1759687408 894083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165618&oldid=165617 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+37) 10/* Truth Machine */
> 1759688139 285578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165619&oldid=165618 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+655) 10Added implementation link and usage example for LLvlN interpreter.
> 1759688300 962946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Llvln14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165620&oldid=165619 5* 03Corbin 5* (-17) 10Tag as AI-generated; Comet Browser is a Perplexity product. Also clarify the otherwise-incorrect TC claim. The instructions are very similar to 6502/8086-ish CPUs (because chatbots have no imagination) so plenty of existing code should port. Almost entirely unrelated to BF.
> 1759688382 590004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Llvln14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165621 5* 03Corbin 5* (+335) 10And this is why chatbots aren't helping y'all learn.
> 1759688551 317265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02Llvln10]] to [[LLvlN]]: move to correct title
> 1759688551 370900 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Llvln10]] to [[Talk:LLvlN]]: move to correct title
> 1759688568 205778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165626&oldid=165622 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-27) 10remove hatnote
> 1759688616 891764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165627&oldid=165626 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-624) 10
< 1759688792 914248 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1759689278 876315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165628&oldid=127302 5* 03Corbin 5* (-99) 10See also.
< 1759689391 960194 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1759689583 347525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165629&oldid=165627 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+7) 10
> 1759690062 685683 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-mini14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165630 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+5580) 10Created LLvlN-mini variant page - a minimalist subset of LLvlN with 4 registers and 12 instructions
> 1759690201 635556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165631&oldid=165629 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+30) 10Updated Variants section to link to newly created LLvlN-mini page
> 1759690235 754997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165632&oldid=165631 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-21) 10
> 1759690301 156370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-mini14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165633&oldid=165630 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+1) 10
< 1759690311 543456 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1759690320 687101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-mini14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165634&oldid=165633 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-41) 10Requested deletion by creator
> 1759690339 383590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-mini14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165635&oldid=165634 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+1) 10
> 1759690388 82788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165636&oldid=165632 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-80) 10
< 1759690559 256807 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How to extract the raw EIA-608 data from a H.264 video from a MPEG-TS file? How can I then map the timing correctly if the video (which may have discontinuities due to commercial breaks) is then converted to DVD format?
> 1759690654 998538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165637 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+10006) 10Created LLvlN++ page - extension of LLvlN with functions and procedure calls
> 1759690730 501040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165638&oldid=165637 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-12) 10
> 1759690741 197457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165639&oldid=165636 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+31) 10Link LLvlN++ variant to its new page
> 1759690771 453196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165640&oldid=165638 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-80) 10
> 1759691374 221579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165641&oldid=165640 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+2394) 10Integrated OOP and Async features as core parts of LLvlN++ rather than separate extensions
< 1759691888 9177 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:e41d:e135:abd4:db6f QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1759691902 634243 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-FLOAT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165642 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+11215) 10Created LLvlN-FLOAT variant page with floating-point spice registers, replaces originally proposed LLvlN-spicy
> 1759692093 20803 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-FLOAT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165643&oldid=165642 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-131) 10
> 1759692199 629516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165644&oldid=165639 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-70) 10Add link to LLvlN-FLOAT in Variants and See Also sections (LLvlN-FLOAT is the official floating-point extension, formerly LLvlN-spicy)
> 1759692324 962240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165645&oldid=165644 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-23) 10
> 1759692509 262519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-FLOAT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165646&oldid=165643 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-122) 10
> 1759693214 69509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quantum-LLvlN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165647 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+3354) 10Created new Quantum-LLvlN esolang article
> 1759693591 897370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165648&oldid=165628 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2302) 10/* Operations */ Explain stack effects and stack-effect notation. Also quickly prove that ROT can't be built from stack-shufflers that only touch two arguments at a time.
< 1759694742 251583 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wow, that's a lot of slop to clean up.
< 1759695338 78708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"created in 2025 by Comet AI Browser"
< 1759695359 352456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if the weird itemized style didn't make it obvious already, it even tells on itself?)
< 1759695429 678803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION sighs

> 1759696580 935884 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165649&oldid=165648 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3739) 10Demonstrate the two-stack zipper technique. This is well-known folklore.
> 1759697179 465735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165650&oldid=165641 5* 03Corbin 5* (-68) 10Remove hallucinated categories. Discuss at [[esolang:categorization]] first, please!
> 1759697520 808535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:LLvlN-FLOAT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165651 5* 03Corbin 5* (+478) 10Some options for improvement.
> 1759697551 538564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-FLOAT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165652&oldid=165646 5* 03Corbin 5* (-28) 10Remove hallucinated category.
> 1759697844 58785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Quantum-LLvlN14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165653 5* 03Corbin 5* (+491) 10Sorry, this one ain't gonna work. Good luck implementing it!
> 1759697960 732088 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quantum-LLvlN14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165654&oldid=165647 5* 03Corbin 5* (+12) 10Fix links; Q is a real language but it's not [[Q]]. Quipper's a real language too.
> 1759698078 926720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-mini14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165655&oldid=165635 5* 03Corbin 5* (-31) 10Removing hallucinated category.
< 1759699322 920363 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1759699603 229166 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Subset14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165656 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1227) 10write a stub on an esoteric subset of iterate. I think the descriptions are fine, it's just the examples that are needed. it might be fun to try and program in this subset as there might be other complications that maybe aren't obvious here
> 1759699788 525975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165657&oldid=165434 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+288) 10clarify on what a visit is, and link to [[Iterate/Subset]] and [[Iterate/Math]] in a new section
> 1759699948 945296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pola14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165658 5* 03Corbin 5* (+768) 10Stub for a fun restricted language: if you can implement a 3SAT solver in Pola then P=NP.
< 1759700274 904028 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1759700808 157983 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759700929 219599 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d06c:e484:423a:8be8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759701310 512376 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759701671 897670 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759702222 878957 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759702237 633435 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1759704066 533106 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759704248 523205 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1759704711 576827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165659&oldid=159428 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+194) 10
> 1759704917 626373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165660&oldid=165659 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-48) 10
> 1759705040 573310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165661&oldid=165660 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-6) 10
> 1759705997 72146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165662&oldid=165661 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-18) 10
> 1759706033 259029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165663&oldid=165662 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+16) 10
< 1759706145 522251 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759706145 549517 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759706148 418827 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759706238 796327 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 NICK :simcop2387
> 1759706388 543298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165664&oldid=165663 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+41) 10
< 1759706719 932215 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759709559 690680 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.197.114.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1759711404 311242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UserEdited14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165665&oldid=165614 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (-4) 10
< 1759712363 397188 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1759712979 493814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165666&oldid=165587 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1084) 10
< 1759715826 986695 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1759717840 542697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Iacgm 5*  10New user account
> 1759717967 997801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165667&oldid=165506 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+93) 10/* Introductions */
> 1759718095 522956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck code generation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165668&oldid=138765 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+51) 10/* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
> 1759719164 640772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C2bf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165669 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+1243) 10Created page with "C2bf (not to be confused with [[C2BF]]) is a [[compiler]] from a large subset of C into [[Brainfuck]] written by Ian Graham Martinez. The project is written in Rust, and the source code is available at [https://github.com/iacgm/c2bf].  The project supports: - Integer Arithme
< 1759719275 798125 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1759719317 640637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Iacgm 5*  10moved [[02C2bf10]] to [[C2bf rs]]: Clash with C2BF
> 1759719330 402421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Iacgm 5*  10moved [[02C2bf rs10]] to [[C2bf (2025)]]
> 1759719338 825429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Iacgm 5*  10moved [[02C2bf (2025)10]] to [[C2BF (2025)]]
> 1759719387 264975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck code generation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165676&oldid=165668 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+9) 10/* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
< 1759727752 726806 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759727968 168926 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759729881 350858 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759729909 605079 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759729937 725429 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759729962 932927 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot NICK :perlbot
> 1759730674 277221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165677&oldid=165214 5* 03H33T33 5* (+534) 10
> 1759730704 290287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165678&oldid=165677 5* 03H33T33 5* (+2) 10
> 1759730742 734567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple/Source Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165679&oldid=165678 5* 03H33T33 5* (+15) 10
< 1759733005 99479 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759733272 891787 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759733904 77785 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759733904 154064 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759734074 305371 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V JOIN #esolangs V :Wie?
< 1759734074 332572 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
< 1759735313 617485 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759736526 743677 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Elbereth 5*  10New user account
> 1759736795 791301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165680&oldid=165667 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+234) 10Hi, I'm currently interested in [[Core War]] & NetHack, though just starting in both; I found this wiki accidentally when searching about Core War.
< 1759738423 397174 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759741969 610237 :nitrix-or-treat!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759741969 758661 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759742061 928710 :nitrix-or-treat!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix JOIN #esolangs nitrix :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759742061 928986 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
> 1759742905 363491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ETC14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165681 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+1454) 10It's simple, but not without potential...
> 1759743028 477826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ETC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165682&oldid=165681 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+0) 10The usual wiki code transformation :(
> 1759743106 680826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165683&oldid=165548 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+10) 10/* E */ [[ETC]]
> 1759743526 87996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Elbereth14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165684 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+286) 10Created page with "Has not made anything notable yet;  Hi;  I'm currently interested in [[Core War]] & NetHack, the former being the reason i got here;  I might improve pages by updating outdated information, maybe even user pages if there is a good enough reason (please check edit 
< 1759745223 624272 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759745348 926889 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759746867 101868 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] iddi01
< 1759746891 734003 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
< 1759746892 116294 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
< 1759746913 732534 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
< 1759746913 986997 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
< 1759746949 745938 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
< 1759746949 874511 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
< 1759746996 901304 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759747024 185903 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1759747066 568378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165685&oldid=165645 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-54) 10
< 1759747085 316432 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://raw-paste.vercel.app/raw/4o990n984n470np1639p1723394337r9
< 1759747085 419893 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01: URL fetch problems: 429 Too Many Requests
> 1759747144 737862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165686&oldid=165685 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+16) 10
< 1759747195 736490 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1759747199 855511 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1759747232 425604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quantum-LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165687&oldid=165654 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+2) 10Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
< 1759747247 275580 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even from an endpoint that's definitely never fetched it before, that URL gives me a javascript-requiring proof-of-work challenge, which isn't going to happen with zemhill.
> 1759747269 305596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Quantum-LLvlN10]] to [[LLvlN-Quantum]]: Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
> 1759747269 336890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Quantum-LLvlN10]] to [[Talk:LLvlN-Quantum]]: Rename Quantum-LLvlN to LLvlN-Quantum
< 1759747278 193520 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759747316 7422 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't get a paste into pastebin.com anymore, it always falls back to the main page after the captcha...
< 1759747346 806632 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :please suggest an alternative!
> 1759747387 202571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-Quantum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165692&oldid=165688 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+8) 10
< 1759747395 658874 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://0x0.st/ is what I usually use (via curl).
> 1759747399 180521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN-Quantum14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165693&oldid=165692 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-48) 10
> 1759747424 270927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LLvlN14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165694&oldid=165686 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-18) 10
< 1759747948 951006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759747961 887293 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1759747974 828818 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does not work: "405 Method Not Allowed"
< 1759748303 898059 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest bad https://0x0.st/KMCl.txt
< 1759748304 80724 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie.bad: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
< 1759748315 149612 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Works for me, that's all I know: https://0x0.st/KMCU.txt
> 1759748365 711758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 036e12fyou 5*  10New user account
< 1759748422 465531 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could hypothetically use HackEso as well, but it would require splitting a program to fit on IRC lines, and be incredibly inconvenient as well.
> 1759748547 73229 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165695 5* 03None1 5* (+1840) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1}} ==Memory== It uses a bit accmulator, an unbounded bit tape and a pointer. All bits are initially 0. ==Commands== * {{cd|<}}/{{cd|>}}: Move the pointer to the left/right. * {{cd|[''CODE'']}}: While accmulator isn't 0, do ''CODE''. * Logic gates rep
> 1759748583 52414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165696&oldid=165683 5* 03None1 5* (+17) 10/* L */
> 1759748611 300466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165697&oldid=165696 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* L */
> 1759748645 304190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165698&oldid=165358 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* My Esolangs */
< 1759748654 341160 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1759748662 46130 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bpa.st/ is another site they recommend on #c -- it has a web form, and a 'raw' link that seems okay.
> 1759748737 255262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165699&oldid=165680 5* 036e12fyou 5* (+183) 10/* Introductions */
> 1759748747 261056 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:6e12fyou14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165700 5* 036e12fyou 5* (+5) 10Created page with "hi :)"
< 1759748762 855912 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1759748762 883352 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1759748796 863661 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!ztest epsilon https://bpa.st/raw/GBOA
< 1759748797 210538 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points 22.19, score 57.64, rank 1/47 (+1)
> 1759748804 925890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Looping counter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165701&oldid=165433 5* 03None1 5* (+64) 10/* Iterate */
< 1759748841 646400 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: thanks a lot, somehow these sites cannot be found via online searching...
< 1759748852 465547 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :!zjoust epsilon https://bpa.st/raw/GBOA
< 1759748852 914397 :zemhill!~cinch@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :iddi01.epsilon: points 22.19, score 57.64, rank 1/47 (+1)
< 1759748865 179603 :iddi01!~iddi01@2604:9cc0:14:2af8:5803:115a:486d:9686 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1759748920 815827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165702&oldid=164692 5* 03None1 5* (+95) 10/* Length */
< 1759749091 671209 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I wonder if the zemhill visualization stuff would still run, those plots haven't been updated in a long long time.
> 1759749226 42878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BRaInFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165703&oldid=165546 5* 03None1 5* (+284) 10
< 1759750433 847017 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759750448 173777 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759750512 687978 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1759750906 486781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Setler v214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165704&oldid=164835 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+67) 10Updated Setler v2
> 1759751844 448281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Autism10]] to [[Autism (Unary)]]: Disambiguation
> 1759751844 524198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5*  10moved [[02Talk:Autism10]] to [[Talk:Autism (Unary)]]: Disambiguation
> 1759751922 407267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Redcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165709&oldid=147544 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+1244) 10yet another revision on this
< 1759751923 109253 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759751934 360507 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165710&oldid=165706 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+65) 10Removed redirect to [[Autism (Unary)]]
> 1759752093 388838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165711 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+3439) 10Created new esoteric programming language based on rigid routines and repetitive patterns
> 1759752175 370700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165712&oldid=165711 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-3397) 10Removed specification content, requesting creation
> 1759752217 92533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Selter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165713&oldid=163173 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+21) 10Redirected page to [[Setler]]
> 1759752235 249414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165714&oldid=162707 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (-63) 10
> 1759752582 160400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BRaInFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165715&oldid=165703 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+190) 10
> 1759752760 211307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165716&oldid=165714 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+2) 10Added Autism (Esolang) to WIP list
< 1759752760 426792 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1759752783 305825 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165717&oldid=165716 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+23) 10
> 1759753127 958708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5*  10New user account
< 1759753887 870660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1759753975 628270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, iddi01.epsilon has joined the rarefied ranks of "programs that managed to take the #1 spot on the hill despite two_thirds having a 100% win rate" 
> 1759754136 129749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02?barinfuck10]] to [[?brainfuck]]: history merge to ?brainfuck  page was created at the wrong title, then moved via cut-and-paste
> 1759754136 182219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02?brainfuck10]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[?barinfuck]]"
> 1759754164 143293 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 restore10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10undeleted "[[02?brainfuck10]]": part two of history merge
> 1759754187 282044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165719&oldid=165718 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1603) 10set top revision after history merge
> 1759754381 198349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165720&oldid=164585 5* 03Ais523 5* (+675) 10/* How to move pages */ new section
< 1759754709 739719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…it is kind-of astonishing that that seems to be easier than beating two_thirds without overfitting or mirroring (the only non-overfitted programs I've managed to beat two_thirds with were other versions of two_thirds with slightly different decoy setups, creating near-mirror matches where it won a couple of cycles earlier)
< 1759754787 640015 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as an experiment, I tried changing epsilon's decoys to overfit to two_thirds's clear loop, two_thirds still won
< 1759754802 813029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the larger decoys slowed it down too much
< 1759755353 561561 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The answer to the question about the visualizations, by the way, is no: I don't have the necessary Ruby bits installed for the "modern" plots, or Python 2 for the "legacy" egostats plots. All fixable, of course, but would require some work.)
> 1759756009 258648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Force of Arch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165721&oldid=157446 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-23) 10
> 1759756031 126182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07An arch is simply a curve.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165722&oldid=157445 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-24) 10
< 1759756058 297877 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759756064 216750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Char14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165723&oldid=157443 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-24) 10
> 1759756104 107547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Doug14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165724&oldid=157444 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-24) 10
> 1759756177 197123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust champions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165725&oldid=164512 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+1150) 10/* 2025 */ While checking IRC logs i noticed this new champion which were not listed here; since i'm totally new to this, trying to work it out was hard, please correct mistakes XD
> 1759756306 363574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165726&oldid=164429 5* 03Ais523 5* (+2) 10/* Decoy */ typo fix
> 1759756690 356688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165727&oldid=165664 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+31) 10
< 1759756788 435605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also worth noting that while testing medium, I initially started on the cases for beating high-decoy-count programs before focusing on the cases for beating low-decoy-count programs: one of those draft versions tied with two_thirds and beat the other top programs, but I didn't submit it because it wasn't good against the field, it lost against any program that didn't set a large number of decoys
< 1759756831 747289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it wasn't overfitted to the specific program but it was overfitted to beating its general strategy (and somehow it was still only a tie)
< 1759757027 139836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that got me wondering what the highest-scoring low-decoy-count program was, it appears to be medium (which sets 3 decoys)
< 1759757185 552731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then three_legged_frog (also 3 decoys) is next
< 1759757215 286154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so #7 and #12 – looks like low decoy count is not a popular strategy at the top of the hill (which is why it's possible to do well even sacrificing that matchup)
< 1759757350 360489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the topic of visualisations, I realised that the best visualisation for showing decoy setups would probably be "average value of each cell position the last time this program adjusts it" – programs normally don't adjust their own decoys after raising them to their full height, even though defensive programs often move over them (note that you would need to be careful for NaN values because some programs never adjust certain tape cells)
> 1759757803 800493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165728&oldid=165727 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+66) 10
> 1759758329 62136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165729&oldid=165726 5* 03Ais523 5* (+256) 10/* Cleared decoy detection */ a counter-countermeasure (it seems like, in BF Joust, whenever a strategy is invented there's a very good chance that someone will eventually produce an offset version)
> 1759758539 35893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF Joust strategies14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165730&oldid=165729 5* 03Ais523 5* (-1) 10/* Observing a cell clear early */ fix typo
> 1759758542 246473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165731&oldid=165728 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+55) 10
< 1759760752 112688 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1759761664 742003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Pichatnik 5*  10New user account
< 1759761948 189579 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759762248 691953 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759762500 234073 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Subset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165732&oldid=165656 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+151) 10important note about breaking infinite loops
< 1759762757 674666 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759763446 467483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Subset14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165733&oldid=165732 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+46) 10
< 1759763553 94395 :dos_user!~dos_user@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] dos_user
< 1759763595 466442 :dos_user!~dos_user@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im testing to see if my quit message works (have logs open in stalker mode)
< 1759763611 472949 :dos_user!~dos_user@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: dos_user
< 1759763645 104551 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1759763656 83096 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah no it diesnt
< 1759763909 571065 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Libera.Chat might be one of those networks where you have to stay connected for at least 5 minutes before it allows a custom quit message.
< 1759763959 354367 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's frustratingly difficult to find any authoritative source for that, but this suggests that's the case: https://github.com/Libera-Chat/solanum/blob/main/doc/reference.conf#L1120-L1123
< 1759764011 331733 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759764012 433269 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although that particular filter should just clamp it down to "Client Quit", so maybe that's not the reason.
< 1759764072 191360 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/Libera-Chat/solanum/blob/main/modules/core/m_quit.c#L83-L96 -- yeah, if it's "Quit: ...", it was probably actually from the client.
< 1759764189 689251 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :dos_user: what fizzie says, libera suppresses your quit message if you haven't been present for long enough, so that you can't abuse the quit message itself for spam so easily 
< 1759764224 485755 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there might be limits to part messages too, I don't know
< 1759764429 875024 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's what I thought, but it looks to me from the code that that suppression should have resulted in a quit message of "Client Quit" rather than "Quit: dos_user".
< 1759764456 243700 :fizziet!~1@2a01:4b00:82bb:134c:cd9:4eba:8af3:95 JOIN #esolangs * :4
< 1759764459 842654 :fizziet!~1@2a01:4b00:82bb:134c:cd9:4eba:8af3:95 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759764473 450445 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's what I got for doing `QUIT :message` immediately.
< 1759765868 721533 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759766284 788694 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1759766352 254170 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759766680 617226 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759766707 887267 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 NICK :cytrical
< 1759766982 483166 :cytrical!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Quit: cytrical
< 1759766998 166027 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759767217 636011 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759767231 168417 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759767287 890840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1759767424 250234 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759767439 666201 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759768001 634717 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1759768051 545130 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759768069 677266 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759768084 960770 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759768329 494977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1759768351 893668 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759768414 511760 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759768705 514872 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759768814 513450 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1759768822 67629 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759768882 552259 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
> 1759769032 201354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165734&oldid=165666 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+851) 10
< 1759769787 489445 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1759769858 763430 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759770153 176378 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.7.0
< 1759770196 587839 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1759770362 531603 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1759770473 575557 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1759770742 958144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165735&oldid=165734 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-8) 10
< 1759770842 598259 :sytra!~sytra@193.56.249.105 QUIT :Quit: sytra
> 1759770867 407752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165736&oldid=165657 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+313) 10/* Example programs */ add [[Cat program]]
< 1759771828 630267 :int-e_!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1759771858 729498 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1759771869 160252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by int-e_))
< 1759771876 659373 :int-e_!~noone@int-e.eu NICK :int-e
< 1759771945 245752 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759772057 511561 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1759772625 7838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1759773140 271497 :int-e_!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1759773147 356632 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting
< 1759773170 765503 :int-e_!~noone@int-e.eu NICK :int-e
< 1759776430 767695 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1759776475 6326 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1759776481 892269 :Awoobis!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759776495 755313 :leah2!~leah@vuxu.org JOIN #esolangs leah2 :Leah Neukirchen
< 1759778082 97822 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1759778799 300277 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1759780192 297385 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165737&oldid=165717 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-172) 10
> 1759780285 725043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Works in progress14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165738&oldid=165737 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-44) 10
< 1759780310 107081 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759780450 969343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03! 5*  10New user account
< 1759781672 330969 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1759781672 646846 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
> 1759782335 653191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165739&oldid=165699 5* 03! 5* (+315) 10introduction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
< 1759784253 547834 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759784270 444000 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1759786626 872756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1759787002 224575 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs ski :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1759788328 172730 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759789706 243212 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1759789859 996535 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759789860 260359 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 NICK :sftp
< 1759789860 670265 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1759792917 224851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:HyperbolicireworksPen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165740&oldid=165720 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+139) 10
> 1759793081 473322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165741&oldid=165719 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+19) 10
> 1759793508 600451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165742&oldid=165741 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+74) 10
> 1759793717 368209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165743&oldid=165742 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+70) 10
> 1759793746 633182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165744&oldid=165743 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+2) 10
> 1759793821 3650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165745&oldid=165744 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+69) 10
> 1759793866 824660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165746&oldid=165745 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+0) 10
> 1759794485 56802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165747&oldid=165746 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+84) 10
< 1759794490 736280 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759794672 169066 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1759794737 254959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165748&oldid=165747 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+69) 10
< 1759794743 164638 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1759794743 164768 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1759794935 789979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165749&oldid=165748 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+60) 10
> 1759795142 966238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165750&oldid=165749 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+69) 10
> 1759795372 114019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165751&oldid=165750 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+67) 10
> 1759795534 853152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165752&oldid=165751 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+61) 10
> 1759795746 735687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165753&oldid=165752 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+67) 10
> 1759795947 515927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165754&oldid=165753 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+104) 10
< 1759796471 890453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1759797095 543538 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759797185 564361 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
> 1759798707 143106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165755&oldid=165695 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Looping counter */ Fix
> 1759798747 541196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165756&oldid=165755 5* 03None1 5* (+1640) 10
< 1759799056 403800 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759799084 483985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1759799580 606608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165757&oldid=165754 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+149) 10
< 1759799661 685118 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1759800605 471959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165758&oldid=165756 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+182) 10/* Commands */ list equivalences for each gate
< 1759802169 348050 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759803911 957491 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759803912 77229 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759803947 584076 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1759803957 972539 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1759803962 902578 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1759804014 851239 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759804052 634252 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 259 seconds
< 1759804094 440132 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1759804143 205440 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1759804157 700297 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1759804397 366940 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1759804427 605028 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1759805867 513698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165759&oldid=165758 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2097) 10/* Interpreter */ add a lua interpreter
< 1759807609 285472 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759807609 426408 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759807616 977814 :bongino_!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1759807641 625243 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1759808131 513520 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759808145 300560 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1759808980 978422 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1759809295 602875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165760&oldid=165759 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+27) 10/* Lua */ credit
< 1759813565 305944 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+deb11u1 - https://znc.in
< 1759813775 871541 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1759814306 255719 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759814333 632687 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759814384 307445 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759814392 550845 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1759814837 54673 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
< 1759816735 402083 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1759817050 481466 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759817058 564841 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1759817546 579719 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1759817932 256880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sophocrat 5*  10New user account
< 1759818068 953388 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1759818164 866174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165761&oldid=165739 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+184) 10/* Introductions */ introduced myself
< 1759819732 561326 :bongino_!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1759819765 936413 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1759820128 83810 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759821630 863244 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759821641 599358 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1759824065 450455 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759825341 680658 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1759828216 688490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ETC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165762&oldid=165682 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+151) 10/* Examples */
> 1759828372 60414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165763&oldid=165702 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+119) 10[[ETC]]
< 1759828851 893610 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1759830809 259779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Iddi0114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165764&oldid=147356 5* 03Elbereth 5* (+8873) 10/* Programming games */ This section is **seriously outdated**: the last edit is from 2024, and the new "[[BF Joust champions#2025|epsilon]]" was absent here; and i found several high-ranking [[Redcode]] programs by him at the "Koenigstuhl" (one of them is also named epsil
< 1759833383 574788 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Mhm. I think I've heard it's generally against the etiquette to edit someone else's user page, but that was clearly done in good faith.
> 1759836761 266571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165765&oldid=96284 5* 03B jonas 5* (+76) 10
< 1759836871 850650 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759836874 877806 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759836949 902821 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1759838050 801249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165766&oldid=164128 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+453) 10
> 1759839810 15094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Teleporto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165767&oldid=163557 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+4) 10more corrections/polishing
< 1759839934 685436 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hah, corporate security sent me a note they'd flagged as "anomalous" when I curl -I'd iddi01's raw-paste.vercel.app URL to figure out why the 429s from zemhill the other day, because allegedly they've seen that site be used to host malware in the past. Had to explain them what I was doing.
< 1759839950 427055 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, maybe they'll start doing BF joust too, who knows.
< 1759839961 129055 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Shouldn't've done it on the work laptop, I guess, it's just a reflex to use the "scratchpad" terminal key binding for any quick command-line thing.
< 1759841986 515125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1759842059 275627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to read a paper, but the code samples are written in C/C++-like syntax except that they allocate memory with new and deallocate it with free
< 1759842077 315440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is really aggravating for some reason, I guess my brain finds it hard to overlook the allocator mismatch
< 1759842382 899013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's a better reaction to have than *not* noticing something like that
< 1759842596 651789 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: how old is the paper?
< 1759842611 688571 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was presented at a conference in 2013
< 1759842618 13780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, then it's annoying
< 1759842620 93348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so not ancient enough for new and malloc to be synonyms
< 1759842637 566607 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it were from the 1996 then it would be somewhat more excusable
< 1759842658 395964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think the syntax is intended to be actual C or C++, just pseudocode
< 1759842664 450932 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean using the same allocator, right? as in synonymous for trivial types?
< 1759842672 445386 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1759842681 536838 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should probably have said free and delete, which were actual synonyms at the time
< 1759842692 256781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… when did delete[] become required to delete arrays?
< 1759842751 507230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something I've been thinking about for a while is that allocating arrays may want to use a different algorithm than allocating non-arrays, because arrays are often realloced larger and other things almost never are
< 1759842765 198905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so having separate delete/delete[] may make sense
< 1759842772 592572 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "just pseudocode" codes can be very annoying, it seems that sometimes people do it because their code is buggy but they want to make it harder for a reader to prove that it's buggy. the ill-fated psz interpreter was an attempt to prove that some pseudocode was buggy, only I was very inexperienced so I made some big mistakes in it, but I at least learned a few things about parsing and interpreters
< 1759842811 895736 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1759842815 698789 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that one may count as the first esolang that I created, if you define "created" and "esoteric" broad enough (it's at least definitely a language)
< 1759842838 102513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also uses a somewhat quirky indentation style with no newline before } but I can live with that (I even used it myself for something, but can't remember why)
< 1759842857 840428 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that to fit more easier in a printed journal page limit?
< 1759842862 926290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably
< 1759842871 334259 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alternately because a lisp programmer wrote it
< 1759842896 153943 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't that bad as indentation styles go, the whitespace matches Python and yet it's unambiguous
< 1759842910 843798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it isn't very popular for some reason
> 1759842963 50055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5*  10New user account
< 1759842970 673280 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, why does pseudocode care about deallocation in first place? can't it just leak memory?
< 1759843013 618772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the paper is about proving that the memory can be deallocated safely
< 1759843017 524450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( maybe it's pseudo code for an allocator )
< 1759843029 796951 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1759843040 856603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the exact deallocation timings are relevant
< 1759843100 337244 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it doesn't just happen to use an identifier `free` that refers to something other than the function from the C standard, right? that'd still be a bad idea, but less bad
< 1759843121 970519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't explain it, it's presumably meant to be obvious
< 1759843188 565599 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I just realised that free and delete were never true synonyms, delete runs destructors, free doesn't)
> 1759843198 435655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165768&oldid=165761 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+344) 10
< 1759843204 509228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which is presumably why C++ needed new names for the operations in the first place
< 1759843263 323580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's why I was trying to say "synonymous for trivial types", trivial type implies it has a trivial destructor so it is ok to elide calling the destructor
< 1759843361 439708 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having types that aren't trivial is what I consider the main difference between C and C++, and between zig and rust, at least from the design sense rather than the source compatibility sense
< 1759843370 415867 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though some people disagree
< 1759843454 918388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :recently I've been working on trying to create memory models
< 1759843464 987669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :atomics, provenance, etc.
< 1759843504 888578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are two fundamentally different ways to do it, and C / C++ / Zig cannot be compiled to one of them because there is not enough information in the source code
< 1759843535 737324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas safe Rust can meaningfully be compiled to either but the semantics for unsafe code are very different (with existing unsafe code using the C / C++ / Zig model, unsurprisingly because it's made to be compiled with LLVM)
< 1759843571 402189 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'll have to be more specific because there's more than two ways to create memory models
< 1759843587 896303 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though being able to compile rust to it is at least a restriction
< 1759843589 697709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good example is with atomic reference counting (std::shared_ptr in C++, Arc in Rust) – in the C / C++ / Zig model a decrement of the release count has to be release-ordered, in the other model it can be relaxed-ordered
< 1759843607 496411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, a lot more specificity is needed
< 1759843613 339089 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still trying to work out the details
< 1759843670 738150 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the basic insight is to define provenance to be "the thing that prevents race conditions from occurring" and then to reverse engineer all its properties from that
< 1759843703 466545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(note that even single-threaded code can have race conditions if the compiler makes incorrect aliasing assumptions to reorder two instructions that actually depended on each other – this is in effect equivalent to running them simultaneously and getting a race)
< 1759843755 467034 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust statically prevents race conditions, but there doesn't really seem to be a consensus on *how* it does that
< 1759843786 46589 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you manage to specify the memory model, can you extend it to multiple user-space processes sharing mapped memory with at least one able to write? or did posix pthreads already do that?
< 1759843801 391901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the unsafe code in the Rust standard library doesn't have a meaningful set of rules for how much synchronization is needed, for example, so it's been implemented in a somewhat ad-hoc way
< 1759843878 724850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that's awkward because you can do it trivially if you place constraints on how the processes write from the memory model's point of view, and it's impossible otherwise
< 1759843924 537086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. you could say "all writes by any process are considered to be, at least, relaxed-atomic writes of each written byte of memory individually" because, on most hardware, it is impossible to do any write that violates that requirement
< 1759843948 442311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then you can safely read it with relaxed-atomic reads ("safe" in the sense of not being undefined behaviour, you might of course still get torn reads)
< 1759843977 774882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you need some memory model for what the other processes are able to do
< 1759844062 727213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if, however, you imagine hardware on which a read/write race produces undefendable-against bad effects (UB, the OS killing your process, etc.) then there is no way to read data written by a process unless it offers you some means of avoiding the race condition
< 1759844078 75303 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that the problem you talked about some day, a primitive to do a speculative atomic read that may give a bogus value but no undefined behavior if it races with a non-atomic write
< 1759844095 169199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's definitely related, I've been thinking about that one a lot
< 1759844152 206658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recently read a blog post which pointed out that the "obvious" algorithm for atomically pushing onto a list (write the current list head into the new element's next pointer, then CAS the new element over the head of the list if the pointer is still correct) is technically incorrect under current provenance rules
< 1759844179 826420 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you might read an old provenance from the current list head, and the CAS might replace a newer pointer with a different provenance
< 1759844193 776751 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(https://people.kernel.org/paulmck/what-on-earth-does-lifetime-end-pointer-zap-have-to-do-with-rcu)
< 1759844203 396768 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it viewed it as a problem in the current provenance definition
< 1759844254 26966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see it differently, though: when you read from the pointer at the start of the algorithm, you are reading the address from the *current* pointer, but speculatively taking the provenance from the *future* pointer (which might have the same address due to the ABA problem)
< 1759844288 27022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then you write the future pointer's provenance into the list element, and do the compare-and-swap, now if the swap succeeded the provenance is correct because we read it in advance
< 1759844336 87668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is the same basic phenomenon, but with much more reasonable-looking code
< 1759844355 801509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, mostly unrelated, is it possible to safely do database-style atomic updates on a file with fallocate(fd, FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE, off, len) or fallocate(fd, FALLOC_INSERT_RANGE, off, len), in the sense that if all writing processes adhere to a protocol but occasionally a process can be unexpectedly killed then the file will always stay in a recoverable state? the linux man page doesn't seem to say 
< 1759844361 980136 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anything about the atomicity guarantees
< 1759844447 919478 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: see the glibc documentation for posix_fallocate, it talks about plain fallocate too
< 1759844485 566521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :based on this, it seems like "if the filesystem supports it, it is safe; if the filesystem doesn't support it, posix_fallocate gives you a racy version, plain fallocate gives you an error code"
< 1759844520 185067 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, but posix_fallocate doesn't support range inserts/collapses
< 1759844540 658077 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that documentation isn't useful for your case
< 1759844567 536571 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but my conclusion is probably "any atomicity guarantees would be made by the filesystem, not by the system call"
< 1759844626 666255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general the Linux manpages aren't very good, they often seem to get out of sync with actual kernel behaviour (e.g. during the fastest-FizzBuzz thing, multiple people noticed that the behaviour of vmsplice(2) didn't match its documentation)
< 1759844654 959132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a sufficiently all-knowing compiler"
< 1759844667 431180 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://sourceware.org/glibc/manual/latest/html_node/Storage-Allocation.html I don't think that's definitive, that only talks about emulating the normal mode fallocate(fd, 0, off, len) 
< 1759844720 195849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't mean it would try to emulate FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE too, and that'd probably be a bad idea to emulate from glibc
< 1759844789 649550 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, unfortunately I only realised that problem after I told you to look at the documentation
< 1759844807 126664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and concluded that any guarantees would probably be made by the filesystem rather than the kernel)
< 1759844814 620288 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, the file system itself has to support the atomicity too, but only a few file systems support fallocate(fd, FALLOC_FL_COLLAPSE_RANGE, off, len) in first place, so maybe the people who added that mode decided on some minimum requirements in first place for the backends
> 1759845307 166533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165769&oldid=165735 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+377) 10
> 1759846298 75986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Chess between HCr0 and PSTF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165770&oldid=165603 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-2) 10
> 1759847834 985303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165771&oldid=153499 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+686) 10
< 1759848484 565465 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1759848714 625835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165772&oldid=141990 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+304) 10
> 1759850577 690035 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Fun video game Wenyan.jpg10]]"
> 1759850665 118016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165774&oldid=160499 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+116) 10
< 1759850713 943437 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1759850870 286486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165775&oldid=165774 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1) 10
> 1759850893 544669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165776&oldid=165775 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
> 1759850929 208949 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165777&oldid=165776 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-6) 10
< 1759851183 576206 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
> 1759851344 575447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165778&oldid=165777 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+701) 10implement in [[Iterate]] (not that interesting), and golf in Lua (interesting)
> 1759853593 477081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165779&oldid=165736 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+37) 10/* Hello, world! */ replace with an automatically generated program that minimizes loops
> 1759853631 169003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165780&oldid=165427 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+37) 10/* Iterate */ replace with an automatically generated program that minimizes loops
< 1759854168 337118 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1759854905 974184 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1759855341 904376 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
< 1759856346 952433 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1759856389 364192 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1759856610 331524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165781&oldid=162849 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+10136) 10implement 99 bottles of beer in [[Iterate]]. I'm not gonna list it on the page since it's largely uninteresting but it's a fun showcase of my printing optimizer
< 1759857096 488766 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1759858027 884047 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1759858283 612832 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759859035 949952 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1759859233 751924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1759859266 757472 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1759859466 117411 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759859466 273085 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1759859466 449979 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 NICK :sftp
< 1759859466 477909 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1759860241 60197 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759860257 97157 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1759860298 281928 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :Awoobis
< 1759860592 802367 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1759860604 816905 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1759860730 728828 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1759861622 558072 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino JOIN #esolangs bongino :bongino
> 1759862277 171147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03StikyPiston 5*  10New user account
> 1759862587 863843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165782&oldid=165768 5* 03StikyPiston 5* (+272) 10Add my introduction
< 1759863658 537990 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1759863967 585340 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1759864834 665995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165783&oldid=154085 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1133) 10turns out that this was close to perfect! fixed some bugs and added an output stream of the data. it is extremely slow but it DOES in fact work
> 1759865116 927014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frigate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165784 5* 03StikyPiston 5* (+1425) 10Created page with "# Frigate  Frigate is an esoteric programming language based on Logic Gates!  ## Interpreter needed!  Currently, Frigate has no interpreter, since I haven't a clue as to how one goes about making one.   If you'd like to make one, then please do so. Link it in the is
> 1759865249 413951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frigate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165785&oldid=165784 5* 03StikyPiston 5* (-1204) 10
> 1759865529 335117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frigate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165786&oldid=165785 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1318) 10translate markdown into wikitext and categorize
> 1759865576 847210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Frigate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165787&oldid=165786 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2) 10h3 to h2 and link
> 1759866642 210012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165788 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2005) 10Created page with "hmm... something's gone wrong. the page for [[BCT]] shows the execution of the program as: 
 Commands     Executed   Data-string --------   -------------   10       1   11       10   11       101    0       1011 * 11        011   10  
> 1759866707 126688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165789&oldid=165783 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1307) 10
> 1759867044 236046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165790&oldid=165778 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-4) 10/* Lua */ switch to assert to shave off some characters
> 1759868133 500527 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165791&oldid=165769 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+42) 10
> 1759869684 815359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165792&oldid=165788 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+358) 10bug in BCT program, not interpreter (I think)
> 1759870089 390551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165793&oldid=165792 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+73) 10fix typo, and provide a breakdown
> 1759870320 857278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate/Turing-completeness proof14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165794&oldid=165793 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+475) 10
< 1759871609 78650 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1759872051 235678 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparentliy I should have said "trivially copiable type" rather than "trivial type", because C++ uses "trivial type" for a more restricted and less interesting concept
< 1759872064 826141 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should try to remember this
< 1759872305 632402 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759872911 475654 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1759873044 517810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitBitJump14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165795&oldid=127057 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+13) 10/* External resources */ dead link
> 1759873055 937653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BitBitJump14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165796&oldid=165795 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10/* External resources */
< 1759873144 36111 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1759874291 812389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03NoWhy 5*  10New user account
> 1759874556 86742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165797&oldid=165782 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+233) 10/* Introductions */
> 1759874630 958986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165798&oldid=165797 5* 03NoWhy 5* (-6) 10/* Introductions */
> 1759875124 319263 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165799 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+18) 10Created page with "Hi I'm Owen Storni"
< 1759876127 560092 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
> 1759876262 143172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165800 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+1884) 10created NONPLUSSED page
> 1759876310 593298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165801&oldid=165799 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+27) 10
< 1759878845 884627 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1759879590 562404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165802&oldid=165731 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-55) 10
> 1759879951 572373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03WebNiko 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Holyfuckicon.jpg10]]"
> 1759880074 105934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165804&oldid=165471 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+47) 10
> 1759880122 584605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165805&oldid=165757 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+543) 10
> 1759880215 45761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165806&oldid=165802 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-78) 10
> 1759880466 89213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165807&oldid=165806 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+45) 10
> 1759880609 692357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165808&oldid=165805 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+147) 10
> 1759881038 128783 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165809&oldid=165800 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+2) 10small errors
< 1759881370 917207 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1759881473 227339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165810&oldid=165697 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+17) 10added NONPLUSSED
< 1759881572 630775 :hydrogen1243!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1759881687 583734 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759881854 668515 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1759882045 524349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03NoWhy 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:NONPLUSSEDinterpreter.png10]]"
> 1759882364 460682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165812&oldid=165809 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+65) 10interpreter img
> 1759883030 728289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165813&oldid=165808 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+42) 10
> 1759883452 15218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165814&oldid=165813 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+125) 10
> 1759883531 662116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165815 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+357) 10created my userpage
> 1759883750 766824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165816&oldid=165815 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+339) 10added editing notes
> 1759883766 12336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165817&oldid=165816 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+6) 10formatting
> 1759883862 512551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165818&oldid=165814 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+125) 10
> 1759884123 340381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165819&oldid=165818 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+58) 10
< 1759886785 298871 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1759887759 895025 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759888677 274947 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759888677 937521 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1759888721 951425 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 NICK :slavfox
< 1759888802 171738 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so I was reading your blog post http://ais523.me.uk/blog/logic-of-shared-references.html . my impression is that it's disconnected: specifically the conclusion part is separate from the rest. 
< 1759888906 492764 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the conclusion part explains something that you mentioned in IRC, which is that it would be useful to have a type that's like a shared reference but may actually point to a copy rather than the original data. that much makes sense, though there are a lot more details that have to be worked out. 
< 1759889027 317219 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the rest of the blog post claims that pirating may be able to solve some other problems, and that part I don't understand at all. you do make at least a very weak case on why pirating might be interesting to explore, but the blog post doesn't manage to explain why pirating can solve the hard problems that you mention and is still implementable with sound rules.
< 1759889283 91221 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now as for a few specific bits of the text. you say "What about packed types whose fields aren't Copy?" and those could be useful, but the typical useful case is a packed type similar to the one you mention but with a mutable reference, and I don't think pirating would help there, because if I only have pirate access to such a structure then all I'd be able to do with the mutable reference is shared 
< 1759889289 95499 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :borrow it, at which point the field not being Copy isn't an obstacle. so I'd like to see a better example for why packed type whose fields aren't Copy are relevant here.
< 1759889305 698970 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also elsewhere you mention you could hypothetically want "
< 1759889406 854356 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the {:?} format specifier Dereffed as many times as possible before using the Debug implementation" in a modified formatting language, but I believe "Dereffed as many times as possible" is something you absolutely aren't allowed to do in Rust because of trait consistency issues, you can't allow code to behave in a different valid way when something isn't a member of a trait such as not Deref. this is 
< 1759889412 861122 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something you can do in C++, but not in Rust, and that is by design.
> 1759889608 624028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Salpynx/Syntagma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165820&oldid=144116 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-8) 10/* Syntax */
< 1759889775 141729 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this doesn't mean that rust pirating can't make sense, only that the blog post failed to explain what rules it would have
> 1759889970 72509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165821&oldid=143973 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+183) 10
> 1759891115 480928 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Salpynx 5*  10moved [[02User:Salpynx/Syntagma10]] to [[User:Syntagma]]: moving to mainspace, probably as complete as it is going to get
> 1759891188 9983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Salpynx 5*  10moved [[02User:Syntagma10]] to [[Syntagma]]: either I made a mistake, or this form is confusing
> 1759892384 84937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntagma14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165826&oldid=165824 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+398) 10cats and motivation. Perhaps this is a semi-joke language
> 1759892628 771722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntagma14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165827&oldid=165826 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+2) 10italics
< 1759895704 607832 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought of something else about a operating system, which is that sometimes you might be able to receive a message before it is sent, or send a message when the receiver is not ready, without storing a copy of the message in the kernel, because attempting to access the memory used for I/O will block (depending on the kind of access) until it is ready.
< 1759895735 686734 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some cases, it also means that the message can be discarded.
< 1759895776 537791 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For example, if a message it sent but not received yet, then writing to the memory used for output will block but it can be read without blocking. If a message is received but not sent yet, any access to the receiving buffer will block, both reading and writing.
< 1759897780 883206 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also thought that memory allocation could be requested from a capability; in this case, the sender will need to have a block of memory already allocated, and when sending it, will give up its own access if it is read/write or will keep its own access if it is read-only, but is allowed to change its own access from read/write to read-only (but not the other way around).
< 1759897950 36176 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had also mentioned before, other ideas about computer design and operating system design.
< 1759904888 238090 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1759905779 352537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Michael Gao 5*  10New user account
< 1759906485 673386 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759906566 812485 :bongino!~bongino@user/bongino QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759919964 98129 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :'a message is received but not yet send'
< 1759919971 266999 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :abandon causality
< 1759921084 265263 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1759921999 998955 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that sounds like linux async io
< 1759922021 797032 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though I'm not sure if that works for sending messages rather than only for regular files
< 1759922996 542496 :hydrogen1243!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 NICK :thorium1256
< 1759923320 888259 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759923352 990682 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759924019 550284 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1759925449 88148 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1759928719 794128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:99tommy.png10]]": A 99 bottles of beer-like program for [[Lines are cool]]
> 1759928911 602765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165829&oldid=135828 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+287) 10yes
> 1759929782 552761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Tommyfunc.png10]]": A [[tommyaweosme function]] in [[Lines are cool]]
> 1759929940 761438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:Tommyfunc.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165831&oldid=165830 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+13) 10
> 1759929987 708038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File:Tommyfunc.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165832&oldid=165831 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+22) 10
> 1759930049 717186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165833&oldid=165829 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+7) 10
> 1759930070 502353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165834&oldid=165833 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+4) 10
< 1759930643 168569 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1759932336 427028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Tommyconst.png10]]": A [[User:Tommyaweosme/constant|tommy constant]] program made in [[Lines are cool]]
> 1759932370 993529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165836&oldid=165834 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+86) 10
> 1759932461 627528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lines are cool14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165837&oldid=165836 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+236) 10
> 1759933368 812138 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:PrySigneToFry's new logo.jpg10]]"
> 1759933444 896315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165839&oldid=165524 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+68) 10
> 1759935196 389921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165840&oldid=165766 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+1) 10
> 1759935328 173633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165841&oldid=165840 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+9) 10
< 1759936996 429780 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: fnord?
< 1759936997 420233 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: hello, sarah. i am not totally in the dark review, accuses reviewer of piracy"? is that simple, it just jumps back to after the if.
< 1759937009 991564 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style
< 1759937010 44585 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1759937035 724041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ukparl
< 1759937035 795464 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
< 1759937041 804060 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: hello my learned friend
< 1759937042 443370 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that is in line with the new general. we have serious issues about social fnord and to enhance, the ability, to defend to the death, and they have left the eu,
< 1759939705 123791 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759940365 498679 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Social fnord is a serious issue.
< 1759940443 378858 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The newfangled LLMs may be objectively better at generating plausible text, or even at stylistic fidelity, but they just wouldn't have the charm of fungot.
< 1759940444 394446 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: he is in my mind, the government welcomed the first fnord, an italian woman of the year will always be in the eye, in their own for fnord council, using fnord, were frankly and honestly, as best i have ever experienced.
< 1759940480 834096 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Not that all the styles are equally successful.)
> 1759940868 569449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SeeLlash14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165842&oldid=155050 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+69) 10
> 1759940944 72408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:AnotherUser0514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165843&oldid=155083 5* 03AnotherUser05 5* (+22) 10
> 1759943514 285276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165844&oldid=165380 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+232) 10/*  */
> 1759943598 887534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165845&oldid=164904 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+13) 10
> 1759943619 174459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165846&oldid=165845 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-14) 10
< 1759944032 61422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1759944736 134792 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1759945120 448981 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1759946219 595032 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1759946299 453336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165847&oldid=165779 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+709) 10extending the specification to allow for more granular IO and data control
< 1759946613 451157 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b551:deec:8ee1:7922 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1759947539 432316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165848&oldid=165847 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-70) 10/* Syntax */ fix syntax
< 1759948297 114684 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1759948802 129980 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mouse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165849&oldid=164263 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+60) 10/* Newline */
> 1759948819 190806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Mouse14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165850&oldid=165849 5* 03MijiGamin1 5* (+21) 10
< 1759949960 258024 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 NICK :vista_user
< 1759950013 544296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Markov chains have proven to be useful as something to serve to AI scrapers to make them think they have successfully scraped a page, without using too much CPU power
< 1759950028 77062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you give them 403s they just try to come back in a better disguise)
< 1759950060 778755 :vista_user!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: tgats actually really cool
< 1759951004 983977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, n-gram models? I suppose that the main cost is memory bandwidth, just like with other language models.
< 1759951901 305947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right
< 1759951905 915927 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't have to be a large one to make it work
< 1759951906 290401 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you can keep the model simple if your goal is just to generate garbage to feed the scraper
< 1759952025 104113 :vista_user!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1759952029 773089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. The universal approximation theorem (or whatever we call it these days) says that a quick model has to be simple.
< 1759952512 385401 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hope this is like video encoding where a simple model is easier to train too
> 1759952961 744532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165851&oldid=165848 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+716) 10/* Loop amounts */ implementation info
> 1759953218 874853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165852&oldid=165812 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+462) 10spec updates
> 1759954571 700223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165853&oldid=149371 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+388) 10
> 1759954590 219296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165854&oldid=165853 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+14) 10
< 1759954772 126196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: I feel like I was missing out by not pinging you earlier
< 1759954772 282910 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: with the eu charter.
< 1759954867 112595 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :excuse me honorable member fungot, which parliament is this, is it the EU or the English one?
< 1759954867 192348 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fnord fnord fnord,
< 1759954881 275543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :very informative
> 1759955015 203020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165855&oldid=165107 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+252) 10[whilst clapping to the beat] YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE AN INTERPRETER/COMPILER FOR YOUR ESOLANG TO HAVE AN ARTICLE ON IT!
< 1759955123 166254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been meaning to write an article at some point about how to write a good esolang, but I'm not quite sure what I'd put in it yet
< 1759955172 136506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do know some things to avoid (e.g. creating an esolang idea with serious missing details and hoping that someone else will fill them in is unlikely to work, and even more unlikely to work if there isn't enough of an idea to constrain how the language ends up)
> 1759955396 568940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165856&oldid=152976 5* 03Corbin 5* (+142) 10/* Where to test things out */ Explain how to preview changes without submitting them.
< 1759955825 110871 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1759955884 506349 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759955911 101333 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
> 1759956210 635936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Help14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165857&oldid=165856 5* 03Corbin 5* (+401) 10/* When to do stuff */ Fans of Sandbox: Have you considered Show Preview?
< 1759956271 89109 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, I'll put it on my list. Right now I'm about to write down the sandbox policy we've discussed. Feel free to tweak it; the "a copy of this policy shall be placed" text is a USA meme.
< 1759956330 116469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know there have been some sandboxing problems I've had in the past where Show Preview wouldn't work for one reason or another, but I think they've mostly been at Wikipedia
< 1759956350 745674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually it's cases which involve the interaction of multiple pages, so templates and transclusions – we hardly use those at Esolang and I think that's a good tihng
> 1759956513 868509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165858&oldid=164763 5* 03Corbin 5* (+724) 10Tentative sandbox policy. This is an attempt at politely codifying themes that have been discussed multiple times on IRC.
< 1759956629 145861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I would probably note that it's OK to draft an esolang article in userspace if you haven't finished it yet (as long as it would be ontopic once it's finished)
< 1759956645 505807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some people prefer not having the pressure of the page going "live" immediately
< 1759956677 235692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apart from that, this looks reasonable (although it somewhat dominates the rest of the page – I'm not sure whether there's a good way to avoid that, except perhaps expanding the other policy entries to a similar amount of depth)
> 1759956725 29795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165859&oldid=164716 5* 03Corbin 5* (+620) 10/* Sandbox policy */ new section
< 1759956788 926949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I was wondering about that. I don't have a problem with moves, other than the amount of redirects that they create (and the paucity of folks who can delete them). I can add more words to [[esolang:help]].
< 1759956842 178385 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We should probably expand the rest of the policy if we want to balance the page. I don't know if that really matters. It feels like the rest of the policy is compressed because there hasn't been much need to discuss or expand upon it.
< 1759956852 795564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really, the only real problems with deleting redirects left over after moves are a) an admin has to notice them, which doesn't always happen because there's only one admin actively looking and they often miss things, b) sometimes people move history to the wrong place
< 1759956861 76936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At the same time, I can go all the way to ''Main article: [[esolang:copyrights]]'' if you want.
< 1759956878 755449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the author policy was discussed a lot, although much of that was in Esolang's early history
< 1759956891 858197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's a link to that on the page
< 1759956937 793894 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the copyright policy wasn't really discussed because it was imposed by fiat by the original site owner – that said I suspect most users from the time, and probably most users now, are broadly in favour of it
< 1759957065 584851 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759957067 897589 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even if we all agree upon it, we might need to discuss it to understand situations that arise in the future.
> 1759957101 904450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165860&oldid=163070 5* 03Corbin 5* (+324) 10Clean the sandbox and bump the policy.
< 1759957384 429909 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1759957491 770313 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reason I have drafted some things in user pages is because I did not know what it is called; if it is later known what it should be called then it can be moved to the main space.
< 1759957537 131351 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, this doesn't really do anything about [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box]]. It does establish that PSTF can't protect those pages by calling them a user sandbox.
< 1759957579 117771 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I suppose that we don't even really have community consensus that PSTF is spamming, nor is there any essential legal issue with them public-domaining all of the various snippets that they've got under their user page.
< 1759957595 100837 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1759957614 786066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think we need to have a discussion at some point about whether that's an appropriate use for the site – it's basically an attempt to use it as a social network, which wikis aren't very good at for a number of reasons
< 1759957665 583923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to understand what to do about [[Square-complete]] and friends. I think that they show a fundamental misunderstanding of why we study computers, and entertaining it for too long will turn us into a script-kiddie den.
< 1759957795 149212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Sure. There's nothing wrong with having user pages, or a long user signature, or any of the other things that teenagers tend to do.
< 1759957846 848821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what's your opinion of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Disan_Count ?
< 1759958019 832897 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1759958073 557429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Delightful. There's a similar situation in complexity theory where the class P/poly, which can be thought of as PTIME but where each individual size of input gets its own individually-wired circuit, contains Halting. It can't solve all problems, but it can be hardwired to solve specific hard problems.
< 1759958121 19381 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :APic: Peace.
< 1759958141 289662 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :☮
< 1759958149 725874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from my point of view, the whole Disan Count thing was probably an instance of the same misconception that lead to Square-complete, and actually produced some interesting results, but that probably wouldn't happen again because the second time wouldn't be substantially different
< 1759958168 628723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this makes it very hard to draw a line
< 1759958252 568391 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Should we at least forbid sub-sandboxes like [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Some useless code]]? I can be polite about it.
< 1759958301 321962 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Plushie-complete and PSTF-complete would be two other examples of questionable concepts.
< 1759958358 393565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :At least the "Disan Count" page is a proper wiki page with a critical discussion.
< 1759958399 8358 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, although the first few versions didn't look liek that
< 1759958475 573582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is what it looked like before the criticism: https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Disan_Count&oldid=53609
< 1759958497 858497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still a proper wiki page
< 1759958508 408415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I actually couldn't remember)
< 1759958764 473146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Square-complete one is... ugh... well, the 6 properties feel rather random and half of them are rather imprecise. There's no motivation. Even the name makes no sense. But... if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it?
< 1759958861 31263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I guess part of what redeems the Disan Count thing to my mind is that it's minimal, basically a streamlined FizzBuzz.
< 1759958896 435179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh it was you who added the criticism. Fun.
< 1759958908 785411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I'm more likely to remember an article if I've interacted with it
< 1759958942 514258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : if the page came with a rationale and a few examples... I might think differently about it? ← hmm, I think this is a good insight that doesn't just apply to that page in particular
< 1759958959 445965 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might summarise it as "esolangs should have a reason to exist"
< 1759959033 935881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a very wide range of possible reasons – artistic, aesthetic, scientific, engineering – but often there seems to be a meta-reason instead ("I want to make 1000 esolangs") or no reason at all, and in that case the language often doesn't end up very good
< 1759959053 676791 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hmm, but earlier you said that this wiki documents existing esolangs, not ones created for the wiki, so if an esolang already exists and perhaps existed before this wiki, why would you judge it on such criteria?
< 1759959080 479246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I would still judge it (although possibly would document it anyway)
< 1759959096 855324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am more likely to write an esolangs.org article about an esolang found offwiki if I find it interesting in some way
< 1759959143 144409 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well sure, because your time is valuable
< 1759959209 955479 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1759959211 8329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would put it more along the lines of my attention span / mental energy being valuable
< 1759959216 74227 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By "created for the wiki" I'm thinking of languages that wouldn't exist if the wiki didn't exist.
< 1759959235 433816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but anyway, that is a good criteria in general, just interpret "reason to exist" broadly, like if something seemed like a good idea at the time but then didn't work out it still has a reason to exist
< 1759959241 335201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to generalise the wiki a bit there, to at least cover sites like codegolf stack exchange
< 1759959258 435382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although its one-off esolangs normally have more of a purpose than our worst)
< 1759959264 246681 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eg. if you were trying to create a variant or subset that's smaller but still Turing-complete but it turns out that it's not Turing-complete then that is still a good enough reason
< 1759959277 479166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I usually don't post those
< 1759959290 295616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless the language ended up interesting some other way
< 1759959300 820843 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sure, but you have to be careful, because there is one good language created for the wiki, the hair saloon one
< 1759959314 306305 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are some cases where I maybe posted early – in particular I am not 100% sure that Globe fulfils its reason for existence, and if it doesn't and it's unfixable I won't know what to do with the page
< 1759959316 876103 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's an excuse that we can only use once
< 1759959341 606066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that was more like having a wiki-inspired name
< 1759959354 565734 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :naming things is hard, naming things using suggestions from spambots can thus occasionally be a reasonable idea
< 1759959377 489504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and well, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is actually a good name for an esolang despite the etymology
< 1759959395 536410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly better than a lot of names that you find on the wiki, yes
< 1759959401 597996 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeesh
< 1759959520 645688 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm not sure how to classify things like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_programming_language_is_a_system_of_notation_for_writing_computer_programs.
< 1759959541 486881 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Y86 where one of the interesting things about the language is that its original name turned out to be so bad (it got renamed later)
< 1759959544 316444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(note that the link ends with a period that not all IRC clients will autolink – mine doesn't)
< 1759959585 268970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: funnily enough I have an abandoned esolang called z386
< 1759959610 585772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which turned out to be too hard to implement, and then was superseded by actual practical research projects
< 1759959642 31106 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea was to write a constraint solver that operated on both code and data by plugging x86 syntax into z3)
< 1759959672 415587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there's no point in working on it now that things like Minotaur exist: https://users.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/minotaur.pdf
< 1759959681 494168 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor does mine
< 1759959703 172732 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, is it allowed to advertise tobacco products in the UK? 
< 1759959714 848363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: sort of no
< 1759959721 835308 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759959734 495718 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: A gimmick is funny once. Same principle. Not sure how to formalize this without getting horribly gamed.
< 1759959737 168639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are laws against it, but I think there are also loopholes
< 1759959751 522188 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully https://esolangs.org/wiki/SKOAL isn't against some sort of wiki policy
< 1759959768 662629 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes
< 1759959808 216000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :many shops have a list of the names of tobacco products that they sell, this is sufficiently common that I suspect that it's legal, otherwise shops wouldn't risk doing it
< 1759959832 595684 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the wiki would be less in trouble in that direction due to not actually selling tobacco
< 1759960027 317301 :molson!~molson@2001-48F8-7040-0-0-0-0-729-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1759960132 401781 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… do we need policy if you can advertise (non-tobacco) merchandise on the wiki tied into the languages, like if someone's making language mascot plushies, or T-shirts with the source code of fungot?
< 1759960132 644154 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: our new prime minister
< 1759960133 426913 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :A75. (that's how we abbreviate these things, right?) is one of those ideas that is funny once. And then somebody makes a derivative (A207.) and it looks stupid. :-/
< 1759960167 665109 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what is A75?
< 1759960172 350977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And making the page move is obviously a source of spam.)
< 1759960189 66063 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: presumably an abbreviation for "A programming language…"
< 1759960209 898490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-08.html#ldd
< 1759960220 913210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(still shorter than the real link)
< 1759960230 853009 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1759960253 871588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the derivative is linked on that page
< 1759960344 746938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Obviously that abbreviation is a joke. So obviously I have to add a redirect to the wiki now. (Don't worry, I won't.)
< 1759960355 403664 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 is how I would link it
< 1759960373 669587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That would work.
< 1759960377 97413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm amazed that that works
< 1759960410 615835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if you look at the URL after redirection, it indicates why it works, but it looks like an accidental feature rather than an intended one)
< 1759960420 593273 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I use that to link to file pages on Wikimedia Commons often, since they tend to have longer and less directly descriptive titles than eg. Wikipedia pages
< 1759960433 653389 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm also relieved that the page name is out of date.)
< 1759960470 246782 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what? I don't think it's an accident. hold on, it's documented, let me find where. it's the way to link by page ID. page IDs are stable.
< 1759960479 418732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a "Main Page" in the URL
< 1759960494 868761 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, and *that* might be a bug
< 1759960520 598906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the correct form of that link is https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?curid=9270
< 1759960540 595437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it looks like if you specify both page name and curid, curid wins
< 1759960548 933531 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Page_revision_or_version specifically says curid "overrides the value of the title"
< 1759960591 188254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so https://esolangs.org/?curid=9270 redirects to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 which rewrites to https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=9270 which gives you the page you want
< 1759960619 267254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this doesn't look intentional at all, it's only because the website homepage redirects to a wiki page that it works
< 1759960673 915471 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it does make sense that the page title is ignored when an id is given
< 1759960685 523897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so... unintentional feature? :)
< 1759960686 14185 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, but the "index.php" is totally an exposed implementation detail there that shouldn't be in the URL
< 1759960737 514944 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But indeed the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=9270 variant doesn't look like it should work :)
< 1759960744 743116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway
< 1759960810 236712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I disagree, the index.php is the actual wiki and the only "real" URL, everything else is redirects and rewrite rules
< 1759960832 775079 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I had to vote on that page being on the wiki, I'd vote against; there's no language there and the whole novelty is that its *name* is defined by external reference whose contents is ever changing.
< 1759960833 658519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally you would expect the URL to contain the page you are visiting
< 1759960870 46497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: well the name of the language and the legal source code and the output are all the same, so it does raise a conceptual issue, which is what you want for joke languages
< 1759960879 616041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if someone edits the wikipedia page, it invalidates all existing programs and interpreters
< 1759960894 13969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It does. The nice things about votes is that they can be subjective ;-)
< 1759960903 560299 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, the main interface for the wiki is /w/ , it's just called /w/index.php instead so that people can run the wiki even if they're using a custom dumb webserver that they have difficulty configuring and *must* tie the URL to the program that the webserver runs. which, by the way, is a stupid idea in first place, where else would you let the untrusted visitor tell you the name of the executable 
< 1759960909 560170 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that you should run?
< 1759960922 565131 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I were an admin I'd probably let it stay simply because it's hard to argue against it objectively and it does little harm.
< 1759960930 855479 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what's your opinion of /w/api.php?
< 1759960934 39103 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Different perspective. :P
< 1759960960 536219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I can see an argument for listing the page under a title different from the language name
< 1759960973 836286 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I'd probably delete the derivative (which is just a stub anyway) because the last thing I'd want is more of this idea.
< 1759960994 223915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a while ago I had the idea of creating a language whose name is negatively long and deletes characters before it
< 1759961028 474407 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there too the ".php" is an implementation detail that shouldn't be there. probably the "api" shouldn't either and it should just trigger that interface based on the value of the action parameter, but I think there's some historical reason where the "API" is newer in MediaWiki than the main web interface and was originally an extension or something.
< 1759961060 925522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we're getting into philosophical issues about who and what a URL is for
< 1759961075 798553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't know how to resolve them
< 1759961131 356581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The real problem with the wiki isn't really that there's pages with weird ideas or underspecified languages that barely manage to specify a syntax and have no substance... it's the volume of them, which has evidently gone up with LLMs.
< 1759961183 968725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think we need to do a better job of trying to curate
< 1759961202 995923 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"articles should contain human thought" is a terrible criterion if you want to be objective :P
< 1759961208 765969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking for a while that we should get rid of the existing language list and put the semi-serious language list under the "language list" title – we have a category for the whole set of languages
< 1759961235 408537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I've been considering trying to write an article about cursed, although I'm not 100% sure it's an esolang it is probably ontopic
< 1759961280 169066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it was a language created by an LLM running in agent mode in a loop for three months)
< 1759961298 48351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just the amount that that would have cost seems esoteric in its own rihg
< 1759961299 479243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* right
< 1759961327 95814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but its semantics would have to be reverse engineered, and apparently it has three interpreters which (given how they were created) almost certainly don't match in behaviour
< 1759961378 448539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect trying to figure out what LLM code actually does is very difficult, though
< 1759961409 283759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interpreters that don't match in behavior doesn't exclude it, that might just mean some behavior is unspecified and there are implementation differences. as long as you can still write mostly portable programs that require only few changes between the interpreters it's not worse than real practical languages.
< 1759961437 714255 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there no documentation about the language?
< 1759961515 8614 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, there's plenty of documentation
< 1759961545 771786 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, let's back up, who initiated this experiment and why in first place?
< 1759961548 995220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, given the circumstances, there's no reason to expect it to match the interpreters or even to be internally consistent
< 1759961561 912844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did they intend to create a language in first place, or was that an unforseen side effect?
< 1759961618 526267 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :intended to create a language
< 1759961654 373467 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They replaced Go's keywords. Discussion here (https://lobste.rs/s/ydgmi6/i_ran_claude_loop_for_three_months_it) reveals that it took 3mo and $14k to do this.
< 1759961669 375187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that the LLM version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
< 1759961672 505786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like the specs are here: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/tree/zig/specs
< 1759961690 832183 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, they didn't actually fork Go. That would have been easy and understandable. Quoting a great comment there, "The point is not a business advantage. The point is a display of power, a message that humans are soon no longer needed."
< 1759961693 785292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are pages like https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/compiler_stages.md that clearly have no relationship to reality
< 1759961757 608436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/specs/ffi.md where the examples are written in Rust which again makes no sense in context
< 1759961857 52114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's like V but worse. Vanity junk for the church of Algol.
< 1759961859 502961 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1759961890 338084 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, that was mean. I'm hungry and it's time to take a break.
< 1759961932 757299 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually this is a lot worse than I expected it to be
< 1759961955 805956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I arbitrarily picked a file from the test suite, and it looked like this: https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/strings/125_valid_palindrome.%F0%9F%92%80
< 1759961981 536179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the commit message is amazing too)
< 1759962037 498729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the real question is as to whether a language has even been created?
< 1759962044 638768 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"vibez.spill"
< 1759962077 74937 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"So here you'll want a … *sigh* … butt loop." https://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1169#comic
< 1759962084 218146 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a test-suite, this must be for printf debugging ;-)
< 1759962116 158380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :LOL, https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/binary_search/704_binary_search_backup.%F0%9F%92%80
< 1759962149 179415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "backup" has some actual bunary search looking code in it; the non-"backup" version is just $printf-s.
< 1759962167 316744 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1759962178 975598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've heard that LLMs have a tendency to remove all the actual testing from tests in order to make them pass
< 1759962234 385523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that does *look* a lot like a binary search, but my experience with LLMs says that they are better at producing output that looks correct than output that is correct
< 1759962274 683218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm... wasn't there a story where an LLM optimized number crunching code to make it 100% faster, by snooping the reference result from the test suite?
< 1759962290 16286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case the tests do not have any expected output anywhere, as far as I can tell
< 1759962290 556634 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I remember when it was fashionable on programming forums for people to post stupid microbenchmarks about what solution is "faster", like, you know, the fastest way to get the first two characters of a five character long string, in a way where the things they tested didn't even correctly solve the supposed task.
< 1759962295 357328 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A reinforcment-learned agent (RL agent) can only have a single objective. Claude's sole objective is to help the user by being a Helpful Harmless Assistant; Claude Code is merely code-flavored in several ways.
< 1759962305 506465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the test suite runner just prints a message saying that it's running the test, then returns 1
< 1759962311 685758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/ghuntley/cursed/blob/zig/test_suite/leetcode_comprehensive_suite/master_test_runner.%F0%9F%92%80
< 1759962321 25260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, I should say, a test suite runner
< 1759962345 872882 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: nah, that takes effort, these benchmarks didn't even bother to test if the result is correct. they just flat out measured the time of an operation that gave the wrong result.
< 1759962369 368663 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like the old joke about the intel processor that can multiply really fast (but gives the wrong result)
< 1759962613 245710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :microbenching correctly is actually really difficult because you keep running into special cases in the processor if you try to run a loop too tightly
< 1759962648 165374 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes.
< 1759962694 169853 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I *love* writing a tight number crunching loop in C, changing code elsewhere (say, slightly different initialization) and then seeing the code be 20% faster.
< 1759962701 949897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or slower
< 1759962718 686913 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: does aligning the microbenchmark to 64 help with that?
< 1759962736 705389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's usually my first attempt to stabliise it
< 1759962763 417205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm usually doing it in asm, I think gcc has a way to align a function
< 1759962783 956610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(note: this won't necessarily speed it up or slow it down, just helps to make it more consistent)
< 1759962792 262694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, that could be caused by lots of things. one thing you should make sure to stabilize is the alignment of all the data memory accessed within a 4k page, to make sure the L1 cache pattern is the same. 
< 1759962812 641007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have a concrete example right now... it might have. Though on rare occasions it's actually the compiler doing something wildly different.
< 1759962890 94108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, suddenly producing code with 5 fewer spills in the inner loop.
< 1759962946 905367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :register allocation is NP-complete, as such sometimes compilers get it wrong
< 1759962975 733969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fortunately, for one-off code, you can just run the fastest version without overanlyzing why exactly it's faster than others :)
< 1759962981 568327 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you have to at least put your microbenchmark into a non-inlined function in order to stop the rest of the code impacting register allocation decisions
< 1759962991 562124 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, and even writing a decent approximation sounds like black magic to me
< 1759963008 320692 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's one of the parts of the compiler that I have no idea how to write if I had to write one
< 1759963008 618449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it depends on what you consider decent/indecent
< 1759963012 72644 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other is the inliner
< 1759963017 748405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a plan but I don't know whether it works or not
< 1759963022 593704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway. the point was that I can relate
< 1759963037 115458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1759963068 756733 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I mean this for a modern architecture like x86-linux, not eg. 6502 with 64k RAM with uniform access time (not counting bank switching)
< 1759963099 969024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I think my plan doesn't work, that was easy
< 1759963129 268576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the basic idea was to start by ignoring register identity and just count how many were needed, but I think even that is not even polynomially approximable)
< 1759963381 576279 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1759964949 893202 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1759964949 983276 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1759965833 298992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165861&oldid=165852 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+58) 10/* External resources */
< 1759967069 294187 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1759968005 827247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165862&oldid=165807 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-41) 10
> 1759968911 709094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165863&oldid=165862 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+204) 10
< 1759969024 474928 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1759972009 521290 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1759972289 63954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165864&oldid=149369 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+323) 10
> 1759972359 2754 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165865&oldid=165864 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (+7) 10
> 1759972374 985668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rizzlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165866&oldid=165865 5* 03ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword 5* (-15) 10
< 1759972834 573334 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1759973923 677265 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1759975239 142847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SwapLoad14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165867 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+1753) 10Create The Stuff To Do The Things Created by Me
> 1759975552 302094 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SwapLoad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165868&oldid=165867 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+309) 10Init and assembly standards
> 1759975973 311342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165869&oldid=165273 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+55) 10swpldad
< 1759978920 728879 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1759979280 954103 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1759980580 944929 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1759991453 8256 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759991453 43887 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1759991523 591242 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1759991998 634259 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1759994767 996090 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1759995200 303094 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1760002693 223845 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1760009731 586160 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760009759 564992 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760010333 752986 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760010347 577170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760010349 48556 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760012783 264186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1760012786 907653 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:130)  Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. \ 9)  So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
< 1760012797 445764 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: speak!
< 1760012797 601614 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that the bill is designed to
< 1760013235 29581 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: What are your views on immigration? 
< 1760013235 446654 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: i will. the hon. and learned friend, with the experience of the house leads the way in small, secure community units.
< 1760013260 430733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nailed it
< 1760013336 308791 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :`quote i, myself
< 1760013337 550473 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :429)  fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
< 1760014537 471177 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760014551 759188 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760017312 555072 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760018413 271978 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760018455 864720 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :..
< 1760018538 313917 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Morning.
< 1760018545 993649 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Or is it?
< 1760018546 338310 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: to my mind, the government welcomed the first, to ring the access to the european banking family and of the many.
< 1760018675 33030 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PART #esolangs ::test
< 1760018683 724754 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760018908 602156 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1760021602 457919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165870&oldid=165851 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+154) 10/* Loop amounts */
> 1760021626 821983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165871&oldid=165870 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10/* Loop amounts */
< 1760022664 628736 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1760022870 569530 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760026933 63049 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1760029582 566149 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760029905 838572 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1760030523 161156 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/memesmith0/vm/refs/heads/main/vm.c
< 1760030534 281862 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: Morning.
< 1760030561 44566 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I improved my command line VM that is like unix dc but has reader macros
< 1760030653 970865 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun. Fairly readable, all things considered.
> 1760030899 184635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Computable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165872&oldid=164721 5* 03Corbin 5* (+70) 10/* Via category theory */ Definition only works for CCCs as given. Also bluelink to CCC.
< 1760032207 301950 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Night
> 1760032406 197919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5*  10New user account
> 1760032518 451778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165873&oldid=165861 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+191) 10specs v0.3
> 1760032604 587383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165874&oldid=165798 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5* (+224) 10/* Introductions */
> 1760032765 456926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165875&oldid=165874 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5* (+124) 10/* Introductions */
> 1760032923 623266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Goodbyevoidhelloworld14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165876 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5* (+126) 10why do u need a summary?
> 1760033089 758909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Goodbyevoidhelloworld14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165877&oldid=165876 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5* (+144) 10why do you need a summary?? (again??)
> 1760035295 632172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Goodbyevoidhelloworld14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165878 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+453) 10Created page with "
why do u need a summary?
 the summary field is optional, you can leave it blank (mediawiki will use a preset for certain actions if it's blank) ~~~~"
> 1760036668 318037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165879&oldid=165871 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-364) 10
< 1760037574 154544 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
> 1760038032 920461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165880&oldid=165873 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+300) 10runtime errors as a feature
> 1760041740 583379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Goodbyevoidhelloworld14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165881&oldid=165878 5* 03Ais523 5* (+336) 10summaries are useful even though they aren't required
> 1760041824 91908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165882&oldid=165791 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1395) 10
> 1760041962 938420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5*  10moved [[02User:Hotcrystal0/1210]] to [[User:Hotcrystal0/13]]: 12 is now taken
> 1760041996 898591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165885&oldid=165883 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
> 1760042023 885193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165886&oldid=162717 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 1013, not 12
< 1760044262 259064 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1760044502 325662 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760045690 190199 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760045707 206635 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 JOIN #esolangs yewscion :Claire Rodriguez
< 1760046204 809335 :nitrix-or-treat!~nitrix@user/meow/nitrix NICK :nitrix
< 1760047335 267158 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760047357 252204 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 JOIN #esolangs * :Claire Rodriguez
< 1760049440 237521 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760049854 473949 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760050087 959911 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760050172 398850 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760050172 676596 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760050172 707923 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760051793 600357 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1760053140 809786 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1760054376 599699 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1760054872 671370 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760054885 792961 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760055185 493760 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760055284 852226 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760058144 273524 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760060253 974762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZeroDivisionError: Division by 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165887&oldid=164121 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (-17) 10/* Categories */ removed categories heading (it's unnecessary)
< 1760060807 923479 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1760060823 774857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760060851 703407 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760060863 140355 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1760060863 202064 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Quit: iovoid has quit!
< 1760060902 882985 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1760060910 911873 :moony4!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony JOIN #esolangs moony :Kaylie! (she/her)
> 1760061020 708457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165888&oldid=165817 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+606) 10started working on DreamBerd article. The programmer jokingly renamed it to "Gulf of Mexico" but I'm not sure if they intend to stick with the name
< 1760061117 542590 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :MPCitH is when you read a book
> 1760061734 375839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165889 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+9449) 10Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|8}} :''Note that 81 is always italicized.''  {{infobox proglang     |name=''81''     |paradigms=Imperative     |author=[[User:Waffelz]]     |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]]     |memsys=[[:Category:Cell-based|Cell-based]]     |dimensions=one-dimensional  
> 1760061797 601078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165890&oldid=113218 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+30) 10
> 1760061811 581993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sophocrat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165891&oldid=165888 5* 03Sophocrat 5* (+37) 10bit of work
> 1760062386 587145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165892&oldid=165810 5* 03Jk.NDC 5* (+11) 10/* W */ Added Wuht to the language list
> 1760063470 204643 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165893&oldid=165889 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+0) 10
< 1760070272 459023 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1760070340 130213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Goodbyevoidhelloworld14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165894&oldid=165881 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld 5* (+239) 10
< 1760070687 955068 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760077566 458629 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760079924 138924 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760081733 276524 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760087897 656053 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1760089531 398730 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.5.1
< 1760090065 981268 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1760092263 556797 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1760092395 402808 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 JOIN #esolangs * :myname
< 1760092559 527146 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1760093573 894251 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760096069 581925 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760096125 566755 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760096147 957154 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760097134 941522 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760097510 224973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165895&oldid=165893 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+20) 10
> 1760097773 719484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165896&oldid=165895 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+64) 10
> 1760100062 191651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165897&oldid=165880 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+330) 10constructs
> 1760100193 154619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165898&oldid=165897 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+92) 10self-modifying
< 1760100216 731058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' general
< 1760100221 194202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :373)  mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once   and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes.   olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself   not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best \ 510)  CakeProphet: mr presi
< 1760100425 920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: eh
< 1760100425 516453 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: as the hon. and learned friend the member for north east somerset, to the whisky and the cake were getting muddled, or if the government has a strategy. when a country is a member,
< 1760100767 111080 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot, cake is not a drink, so I don't think that counts as mixing drinks
< 1760100767 552908 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that is, of course of a year. uk unemployment, the lifetime of the new prime minister still have no regrets policy. well, of the five people involved, that
< 1760100785 332826 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's better
< 1760100839 827 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it was a rum cake and they were out of rum
< 1760100973 692789 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1760101036 615892 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1760102042 767525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wish "elliptic curve cryptography" was named something different that doesn't look like people are trying to write "error-correcting code" when they abbreviate it
< 1760102897 694304 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1760103492 160906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> 26^3
< 1760103493 768867 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 17576
< 1760103509 40334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> sqrt $ 26^3
< 1760103510 393647 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 132.5745073534124
< 1760103553 901221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's worse than that because the distribution isn't even)
< 1760103710 140732 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Why is American Football played with a hokey ball?
< 1760103710 371126 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the most important of the amendments, the government will
< 1760105387 845649 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
< 1760106496 958392 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760106514 394725 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's played with a rugby egg
> 1760108191 977816 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165899&oldid=165898 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+991) 10time command
> 1760108464 182324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165900&oldid=165899 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+67) 10Comment, fix page links
> 1760109344 572295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adeco14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165901&oldid=165332 5* 03Zinnia Glean 5* (+81) 10
> 1760109801 287354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adeco14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165902&oldid=165901 5* 03Zinnia Glean 5* (+237) 10
< 1760109877 564471 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1760110585 654807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165903&oldid=165875 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+150) 10
> 1760110612 372964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Nguyendinhtung201414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165904 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+46) 10Created page with "He is, as mentioned in the name, born in 2014."
> 1760111679 835497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165905 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+1189) 10Created page with "Basic Stack is an esolang by the user [[User:Nguyendinhtung2014]].It consists of a "transparent" stack (whick means any value in the stack can be looked at but only can we do actions with the top value), a register, push-pop commands, conditionals and got
< 1760112647 623332 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760115343 107243 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760115414 809579 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760116505 925137 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night   😴
< 1760116811 554800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760117497 379215 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760118244 450010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165906&oldid=165879 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1266) 10/* Cat program */ replace cat program and add reverse cat program
> 1760119716 657716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165907&oldid=165892 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+13) 10
> 1760121073 226911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165908&oldid=140976 5* 03Corbin 5* (+212) 10/* Please delete this page */ new section
< 1760121819 135761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1760122370 840581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165909&oldid=165900 5* 03NoWhy 5* (-129) 10prototype repo link
< 1760123042 647053 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1760125308 330258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NONPLUSSED14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165910&oldid=165909 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+38) 10/* Time Command */
< 1760126651 526331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760127027 752561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is anyone here aware of using coroutines to implement message-passing-like objects? like, you resume the coroutine to call a method on it, and then it yields the method's return value
< 1760127034 906316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the local variables of the coroutine act like fields of the object
< 1760127048 332033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is different from the closure-object correspondence, which uses *captures* to act like fields of the object)
< 1760127309 983176 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There've been a couple Python libraries based on the fact that a Python generator can accept inputs. I'll try to find good examples.
< 1760127550 554401 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Python currently has proper coroutines with the `async def` keyword, but there's also backward compatibility with older ways of emulating coroutines, including generators. This leads to a few transitional fossils in the record. Check out https://docs.twistedmatrix.com/en/stable/api/twisted.internet.defer.html#inlineCallbacks for an example.
< 1760127701 474941 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This let us write objects whose messages were deferred actions; sending a message was like waiting until the action completes. For a non-trivial and well-commented usage example, here's chunk-management logic in my old Minecraft server: https://github.com/bravoserver/bravo/blob/master/bravo/world.py#L438-L544
< 1760127834 204309 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :When we went from Python to Monte (which this codebase didn't experience), lines like `chunk = yield maybeDeferred(self.serializer.load_chunk, x, z)` would become m`def chunk := serializer<-load_chunk(x, z)`; all of the extra sending ceremony is bundled up in the change from '.' to '<-'.
< 1760128919 473802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks – I thought it might be the sort of thing you would be experienced at
< 1760128985 764350 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, was there an esolang whose name punned on Twisted the name of the Python language versus "twisted" the adjective?
< 1760129005 650003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I vaguely remember one but it might have been spam, or even a spam page repurposed as a language
< 1760129008 721886 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's something that we (the Smalltalky prototype/object folks) wanted throughout the 90s and 2000s. It's one of the two big problems in Web frameworks: how to represent little async actions within a single process, when we want to do hundreds of them per request?
< 1760129027 920583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, Twisted Python Chat Server
< 1760129051 483335 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The other big problem is how to store objects in a database. That one's still open IMO!)
< 1760129094 87319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust had that problem too – its current status is "we know we need some sort of coroutine design but don't know what it looks like", plus stable async/await which is implemented in terms of the unstable coroutines internally and they change the internals whenever they change the coroutine design
< 1760129133 156606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TPCS could be a topology-based language. I think there was another one of those recently; some sort of interactive Web page where one could draw a circuit based on its topological features.
< 1760129140 794480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I found a converse to the "store objects in a database" problem – instead of storing the objects in a database, you leave the objects floating around in memory like normal and create database-style indexes for them
< 1760129181 397486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't get, e.g., database-style persistence, but you get enough of the advantages of a database to be useful in some contexts
< 1760129211 620335 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Are you familiar with ECS, Entity-Component Systems? IIRC you're not into gamedev, so might not have seen it before. It's not perfect but it's remarkably good at delivering real-time access to lots of objects.
< 1760129233 200460 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort of – I'm very familiar with the concept existing but have trouble understanding the explanations of it
< 1760129264 644380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm pretty experienced with gamedev but what I do is very outside mainstream gamedev
< 1760129269 766346 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think ultimately any object-database mapping has to somehow reduce away the *behavior* of an object, which we normally think of as inalienable methods, into some sort of inert struct. Object-oriented folks don't like those.
< 1760129330 227125 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! I meant that you probably haven't used e.g. Unreal or Unity tooling. In an ECS-oriented engine, behaviors have to be encoded as components. This is how they deal with the lack of methods; an object has a behavior precisely when it has the component providing that behavior.
< 1760129389 959888 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This has been on my mind for several months because it's key to finishing Zaddy. Still puzzling though.)
< 1760129404 644462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my relationship between me and ECS is similar to the relationship between new would-be Haskell programmers and Monads
< 1760129411 371071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are lots of explanations but I haven't found the one that makes it click for me yet
< 1760129419 510519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I still don't really understand what it's about
< 1760129441 278140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? monad
< 1760129446 42283 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
< 1760129475 623427 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Or perhaps monads are just 2-elements in a bicategory.
< 1760129475 949346 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what a very important question, and the prime minister write to the m&s chief executive, to a series of very important work.
< 1760129596 2361 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Maybe you've seen defunctionalization? An ECS encoding of objects is like a defunctionalization of their methods; the idea is that there aren't any vtables, just a type tag that points into some table of components. Like a many-to-many relation between entities and components. Very database-oriented thinking.
< 1760129607 190707 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Sorry, I'm just emitting tokens now. I'll stop.
< 1760129630 368620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least your tokens are more likely to be relevant than those of an LLM
< 1760129739 568627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :defunctionalization is another thing I've seen but not understood, but this at least looks easier to understand
< 1760130852 890209 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760131775 696584 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760132323 96784 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hmm, could your objects-in-databases problem be summarised as "storing objects in databases only works if I have a finite number of classes statically known in advance (each of which defines the behaviour of an object's methods in terms of a known set of fields), and each object belongs to one of those classes – but I want to be able to store objects that have behaviour that's more dynamically defined than that"?
< 1760132383 107458 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tend to think in terms of the "static number of classes" model by default because that's what the languages I use most often naturally want to use, but this reminded me that there is another way to do it
< 1760132416 568842 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. In particular, the Zope crowd was fascinated by signatures ("interfaces") and the problem of asking an object to provide a signature (be "adapted" to an "interface"), leading to the extremely popular zope.interface library. Another good example of a transitional fossil, since it was largely superseded by proper type checking.
< 1760132478 995323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering if it's possible to create new types at runtime in Rust, that implement existing traits
< 1760132516 666490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my guess is that the language semantics don't rule it out but you would have to make your own vtables using unsafe code, which is difficult because the vtable format is unstable (both in the sense of there not being a guarantee as to what it is, and in the sense of actually changing in practice sometimes)
< 1760132551 228919 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously you would only be able to actually use the types in question using type erasure
< 1760132582 123552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A while ago I made available some old documentation from Divmod, a Twisted-oriented startup. Divmod Axiom was an object database built on a hack: SQLite has "rowid" per-row identifiers which can be used as tags. So we can treat an object like an ad-hoc ECS entity by using zope.interface to enumerate what it adapts to, adapting the adapters to be components, and saving all components to the DB along with the object.
< 1760132587 562837 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, forgot the link: https://divmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/products/axiom/
< 1760132613 936848 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I tried to maintain some of this code. I could not figure it out back then, and I doubt I could do better now. Axiom was one of those too-clever ideas IMO.
< 1760132703 900360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I might understand ECS a bit better now – the idea is that it's a way to abstract over different classes/types/"ways an object can implement its methods" without needing to know the set of possible types in advance?
< 1760132721 568193 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, right, components are called "powerups". There were also "upgraders", which made schema migrations entirely transparent; if you wanted to version an object's class then you had to write out adapters that would rewrite old objects into new objects. Very 90s Smalltalk.
< 1760132808 647125 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, for sure. The key to ECS is that there's a for-loop that enumerates the entities and applies each entity's component to each entity. Like, imagine that each entity has a bitmask for the components it supports, and the for-loop has another bitmask for the components that should be run.
< 1760132902 28212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes there's other for-loops that enumerate the entities for just one component, usually to cast/extract extra information. Like, copying annotations for a physics object when doing a physics step.
< 1760133388 62606 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760133404 69819 :FreeFull_!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760133457 158119 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1760133566 86390 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760133566 268812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760133566 382408 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760133566 424184 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760133566 794161 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 NICK :lynndotpy60
< 1760134074 164488 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1760134219 323452 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 JOIN #esolangs thorium1256 :It's just a cube of computing!
< 1760135513 782985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so the big difference between "how ais523 would use a database-like approach to implement games" and "how an ECS works" is that in an ECS, the code is basically looking for entities on which specific types of data exist, and then processing it in isolation (without knowledge of other data that might also be attached to the entities) – whereas my approach is similar but it isn't looking for the existence of the data but rather particular values
< 1760135579 884818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as a trivial example, NetHack's big monster-moving loop is similar in nature to an ECS system, but it loops over all monsters *on the level*
< 1760135587 421288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rather than everything that has an AI and position coordinates
< 1760135619 31892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it strikes me that ECS is a way to compensate for not having the correct database indexes set up :-D
< 1760135801 522573 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! ECS design is clearly a subfield of database schema design. Keeping indices sorted is important in my Zaddy prototype, too.
< 1760136308 381590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, NetHack's approach seems to be equivalent to a degenerate case of ECS in which entities that are monsters have a "type of monster" component and everything that operates on monsters dispatches on it
< 1760136328 761891 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which I suspect you aren't actually supposed to do)
> 1760136493 930314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Ricarinium 5*  10New user account
< 1760136499 911022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :performance is also interesting because ECS doesn't really distinguish between components that are used to store data (e.g. position) and components that are used to represent behaviour (e.g. 3D model used for rendering)
< 1760136523 791917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the latter seems like it would lead to a lot of duplicate components *but* if you try to optimise that, you break some of the optimisations that the rest of the system relies on…
< 1760136581 17083 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting. That would be a big difference from e.g. Doom, where all of the logic is inline and all of the "enemy" types are checked with special cases. We can see half-and-half with games like Super Mario 64, where there's both a primitive ECS *and* lots of special-cased behaviors.
< 1760136588 731134 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! this is probably why the original article doesn't have a 1-1 correspondence between "entity X that has component Y" pairs and the actual data for entity X's component Y, it would be so you could deduplicate the ones that don't change
< 1760136631 821378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, NetHack is also full of special cases and double special cases (i.e. when two things interact, there's a special case that requires each of them to have a specific monster type)
< 1760136649 294028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in an ECS you need a component to represent things that the special case applies to
< 1760136678 552536 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. ECS has its own version of the double-dispatch problem.
> 1760136820 472134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165911&oldid=165903 5* 03Ricarinium 5* (+322) 10me
< 1760136875 541364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking in terms of refactors that change things from being static to dynamic
< 1760136890 521055 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in NetHack 3.6, red dragons are immune to fire but not cold, white dragons are immune to cold but not fire
< 1760136902 41841 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in NetHack 3.7 those are still true by default, but there are situations in which red dragons gain cold immunity
< 1760136938 482043 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine an ECS would have had a "resistances" component all along and just change how it's initialized
< 1760136957 171410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(whereas NetHack changed the accessor functions/macros for resistances)
< 1760136981 400154 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there'll be a component for the exception that lizards have too weak legs to kick
< 1760136988 998783 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are hundreds of silly exceptions like that
< 1760136993 421628 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually this points to a flaw in the ECS model: there is no reason to dispatch on things that have resistances, you are not searching by that, you just need to be able to look them up
< 1760137083 585470 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :components for which properties of items you can recognize while blind, while hallucinating, etc
< 1760137133 542235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when you're a priest, and whether gnome archaeologists players can use a touchstone as if it was blessed or all archaeologists can
< 1760137136 491314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: actually an ECS would probably struggle with just the concept of an item being in inventory
< 1760137150 669636 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what stone purifies potion of sickness
< 1760137152 614503 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with the full-search-version it's easy
< 1760137209 761603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could make being-in-inventory-ness a component but then you have a type safety issue as there's no static check that an object isn't both in inventory and on the ground
< 1760137242 561451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and this is the sort of thing that could really do with a static check – NH4 has what is in effect a sanitiser that checks that objects are in exactly one location at all times)
< 1760138142 545992 :FreeFull_!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl NICK :FreeFull
< 1760138172 525067 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :ECS.. Could we have a whole programming language based on ECS ideas?
< 1760138260 727373 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, SQL?
< 1760138291 293993 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm
< 1760138327 441459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like ECS's advantages come from the database-like behaviour, and that ECS also has unrelated requirements but they aren't actually advantages or useful – which possibly makes them a good fit for an esolang?
< 1760138372 442896 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, for ais523's example, an item in an inventory is really just a row in a table. ECS's limitations are mostly from not being allowed to make new tables.
< 1760138424 791187 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: actually, I think the best approach is to have an "item location" column in an items table, with inventory being one possible location, then you have an index that lets you find items by location
< 1760138435 474505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because there are some things that should conceptually affect both items in inventory and items on the groudn
< 1760138457 739059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(NetHack does currently use the equivalent of separate tables and just iterates over all the relevant tables and combines the results, when it has to do that)
< 1760138490 114817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but I think that's a replacement for not having proper indexes)
< 1760138545 714744 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, okay, that makes sense. In e.g. Minecraft, each table is associated to a client-side modal window, so being "in" the table really is like being "out" of the rest of the world. It's got a touch of that good old N64 SRM about it; for the duration of a Minecraft drag-and-drop, an item is in handheld limbo.
< 1760138592 98763 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: HOLP down for what
< 1760138592 877028 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: they will be judged, the people of all the united back into the united kingdom were to take 300. the site, to the distinctive, so concerns that the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i, and the scottish government to have the same time, the hon. member to the board, the public body set up to pronounce the last bit.
< 1760138644 722825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other reason to make it one table is because the information being stored is essentially the same, and you want to be able to move items back and forth between inventory and floor easily – if they were separate tables you would need to move to a different table and need all the column names, etc. to match
< 1760138653 554401 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but with a single table you can just change the location field
< 1760139279 90484 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, every item has to be in exactly one place, which is either on the tile (in which case there's an extra bit for whether it's on the surface or underground/underwater), or in a monster-or-player's inventory, or in a container item (statues are containers), or nowhere (that's where they used to go after a bohsplosion)
< 1760139445 424460 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if it's in a monster-or-player's inventory then it can be in use in at most one way: wielded, worn in a specific slot fof armor/ring/amulet/saddle, held leash, and I think there was one or two more weird ones that I forgot
< 1760139471 341399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a lit flag but that one actually isn't mutually exclusive with the others
< 1760139500 223181 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you can weild a lit potion or lamp
< 1760139510 81090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the specific armor slots thing is probably some of the most brittle code in NetHack, it is hard to change and hard to interact with correctly (these may be correlated)
< 1760139554 184674 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also chain and ball chained to you which I really can't conceptualize how it works
< 1760139580 401253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: they're basically just armor slots internally except they don't actually have to be in your inventory
< 1760139591 192308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is as confusing as it sounds and has definitely led to bugs in the past)
< 1760139653 563930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is a big deviation from the single-owner principle that, e.g., Rust uses to make it easy to write easily-understandable code
< 1760139657 138536 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a blindfold/lenses slot which I just imagine as one more of those armor/ring/amulet slots
< 1760139659 661231 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the armor slot items effectively have two owning references
< 1760139672 688569 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: indeed
< 1760139723 631840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ownership rules are basically "if you remove the item from the armor slot you don't deallocate it, if you remove the item from its other primary owner, check a field on the object to see if it's in an armor slot too, if it is, specialcase that"
< 1760139730 53085 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there always at most two places that an item can be on a tile, or is it sometimes three (in vanilla, not variants)? I'm not sure about this one
< 1760139749 934442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by "place" here are you referring to memory locations or places in the game?
< 1760139759 404420 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :places in game, like buried or surface
< 1760139784 881015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on normal terrain they can be buried or on the surface, and I think items can be underwater or under the ice or something, I don't follow how it works really
< 1760139787 671626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :internally it's actually only one for on-tile items, buried objects just get ignored by most things (including the vision code, obviously)
< 1760139794 978659 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think some variants have levitating items, but I don't know if that's a place
< 1760139817 631478 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :underwater is actually flagged as surface, but ignored for many purposes in much the same way that buried items are
< 1760139841 586289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also "in a container" but those items aren't associated with a tile
< 1760139850 39861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except indirectly through the container)
< 1760140123 813428 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if the chain is simultaneously in a slot that you have but not in your inventory, that sounds as unpleasant as riding on a cursed saddle. 
> 1760145601 442709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Neko14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165912&oldid=165863 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-23) 10
< 1760147897 62467 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760149007 11391 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ICBINB14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165913&oldid=89463 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+160) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the ICBINB programming language on GitHub and marked the original implementation's resource as expired.
> 1760151669 29895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Purboi 5*  10New user account
> 1760152014 565217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165914&oldid=165911 5* 03Purboi 5* (+195) 10new user
> 1760152238 407398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165915&oldid=165914 5* 03Purboi 5* (+0) 10oct 11 not 10
> 1760152335 798392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Purboi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165916 5* 03Purboi 5* (+117) 10new
> 1760153290 943809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pur14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165917 5* 03Purboi 5* (+2428) 10basically everything
> 1760153671 658482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165918 5* 03Purboi 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
> 1760153706 15188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165919&oldid=165918 5* 03Purboi 5* (+61) 10/* hi */ new section
> 1760153776 471170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pur14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165920&oldid=165919 5* 03Purboi 5* (+141) 10/* reply */ new section
< 1760155749 699550 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1760158785 762038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was wrong about buried, it isn't a flag, it's a separate chain (the equivalent of a separate table)
< 1760158834 620775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the buried flag is for monsters and the players, not items
< 1760159616 542451 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1760159806 641705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165921 5* 03None1 5* (+12086) 10Created page with ":{{Back|LogicGates}}  :''Note: exGates uses numbers as commands instead of letters, so exGates-2 is incompatible with LogicGates.''  exGates is a family of LogicGates dialects. There are an infinite number of languages in exGates: exGates-2, exGates-3, etc.  e
> 1760159839 983366 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165922&oldid=165760 5* 03None1 5* (+52) 10
> 1760159869 870083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165923&oldid=165921 5* 03None1 5* (+8) 10/* ASCII HI! in exGates-74 */
> 1760159898 194127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LogicGates/exGates14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165924&oldid=165923 5* 03None1 5* (+155) 10/* Computational class */
> 1760160122 447824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165925&oldid=165698 5* 03None1 5* (+62) 10
> 1760160137 491383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ExGates14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165926 5* 03None1 5* (+32) 10Redirected page to [[LogicGates/exGates]]
> 1760160175 20676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165927 5* 03H33T33 5* (+3022) 10Created page with "C* or Cx, pronounced "C Times", is an extension of the C++ programming language. It is designed to be much more flexible and easier to read and write with.  Unfortunately, it is only a concept at the moment.  =Major Changes= ==Outputting and Semicolons== Outputting and Inputt
> 1760160189 46233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165928&oldid=165907 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* E */
> 1760160332 281935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165929&oldid=159863 5* 03H33T33 5* (+12) 10
> 1760160348 125346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165930&oldid=165927 5* 03H33T33 5* (-25) 10
> 1760160392 286257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BRaInFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165931&oldid=165715 5* 03None1 5* (+315) 10
> 1760160404 429792 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165932&oldid=165929 5* 03H33T33 5* (+9) 10/* Concept */
> 1760160415 955237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165933&oldid=165932 5* 03H33T33 5* (+10) 10/* In Development */
< 1760165309 177491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I see
< 1760166119 639053 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760166777 855561 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760167078 552164 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760170316 601706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165934&oldid=165905 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+175) 10
< 1760171143 311290 :Awoobis!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
< 1760171152 773993 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :Awoobis
< 1760171297 756130 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760171830 869390 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1760171913 658540 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1760171988 237234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165935&oldid=165934 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+184) 10
< 1760175780 845056 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1760176048 866046 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1760176127 939696 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760176428 871606 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760176580 11404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hehe, shapez.io balancers can be pretty weird: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/r/shapez-balancer-phases.png (at 8x speed; the fact that 60/8 is not an integer is probably relevant)
< 1760176682 26528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I only wanted to demonstrate that it can swap fully saturated inputs; the other three behaviors came up by accident)
> 1760177982 983226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165936&oldid=165935 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+2376) 10
< 1760179723 71355 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760181660 365173 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yeah, that doesn't look too surprising
< 1760181760 795515 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know you can do that sort of magic trick with Factorio splitters
< 1760182488 572491 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760182553 545488 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760182566 803907 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760183043 297384 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760185749 744042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Nguyendinhtung201414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165937&oldid=165904 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+126) 10
> 1760185893 695262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165938&oldid=165801 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+87) 10
< 1760186039 821860 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760186054 989500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ens14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165939 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+241) 10ens
< 1760186556 894700 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760187573 983521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165940 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+982) 10Distal Interphalangeal Joint
> 1760188041 850921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Triolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165941&oldid=160987 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-10) 10
> 1760188363 954654 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165942&oldid=165908 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+130) 10
> 1760188935 722558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Count counters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165943&oldid=145537 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+59) 10
> 1760195787 748494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165944&oldid=165942 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+198) 10/* Please delete this page */
> 1760196149 435437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165945&oldid=165940 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+1656) 10specs update
< 1760196153 327499 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1760196169 566813 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1760196568 922907 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165946&oldid=165945 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+154) 10consulted the professional opinion of audiologists
> 1760197409 613476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165947&oldid=165649 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+110) 10
> 1760198116 407040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165948&oldid=165946 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+170) 10note
> 1760200481 611879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165949&oldid=165948 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+246) 10specs
> 1760200563 499450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165950&oldid=165949 5* 03NoWhy 5* (-6) 10
> 1760200877 789313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165951&oldid=165950 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+0) 10
< 1760200995 861814 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1760202136 558267 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760202226 61826 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760203157 291438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760203219 463887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reading https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.15327v2 and it notes that the word "esoteric" appears in the original INTERCAL documentation – I wonder whether that's the actual etymology of "esoteric programming language"? if so it would be older than the commonly accepted etymologies
< 1760203281 247057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess we'd have to ask Chris Pressey
< 1760203403 647136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, there's at least one factual error in the paper, though, it says C-INTERCAL's ICL999I occurs as a result of being unable to parse a program incorrectly, it is actually due to the compiler not being installed correctly (INTERCAL almost doesn't have parser errors)
< 1760203419 618999 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are compile-time errors but they have different causes
< 1760203578 915757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it also lists a language called "Malbodge" which is either a derivative that's very similar to the original, or a typo
< 1760203620 822462 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's good that people are studying esolangs academically, but I don't like this paper very much :-(
< 1760204024 629083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, this paper says that Whitespace was designed by the same person as Idris, assuming that's accurate it's interesting
< 1760205016 575210 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:409c:634b:fec4:4fe QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760205406 455649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thisthat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165952&oldid=163215 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+25) 10[[Category:Deque-based]]
< 1760205978 768535 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760207431 872804 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760207466 923907 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, any parser errors are actually just the users not understanding Intercal syntax
< 1760207481 846771 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760207727 652375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few cases where command-line options (or the lack of them) will cause a program to be rejected in the parser
< 1760207761 452845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially involving the -t option to C-INTERCAL, which rejects code that C-INTERCAL understands but INTERCAL-72 wouldn't (note: this violates backwards compatibility as this would have been a runtime error in INTERCAL-72, not a compile-time error)
< 1760207790 403262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think assigning to a constant might also be a compile-time error (unless you turn on the option to make that legal)?
< 1760207803 365223 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's debatable whether that's a parse error or not
< 1760207838 804798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, to be precise, I meant assigning to a numeric literal
< 1760208839 586276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, Whitespace and Idris both have Brady as primary author. Worth remembering that Whitespace *isn't* its own type specimen; the origin is the classic Perl module, Acme::Bleach.
< 1760208857 943740 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Was Whitespace designed by the same person as Idris?
> 1760208879 553038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: No, Whitespace and Idris were designed by different people. Edwin Brady designed Whitespace with Chris Morris, while he designed and implemented Idris independently.
< 1760208983 17533 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760209132 627047 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Technically correct.
< 1760209302 945806 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760209370 869044 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760210689 448486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165953 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+6736) 10Created page with "John Backus won the Turing Award in 1977. He worked on a function-level programming language known as FP, which was described in his Turing Award lecture "Can Programming be Liberated from the von Neumann Style?Backus, John (August 1978). 
> 1760212046 369819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165954 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2007) 10I have a few concerns. I say this as the person that cited the same lecture for the blurb on the functional-paradigm category blurb.
< 1760212095 411491 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LMK if more policy words are needed to explain that LLMs produce words of unknown provenance and can't be trusted to not plagiarize.
< 1760212588 548554 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1760212795 161410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165955&oldid=165951 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+103) 10linked implementation
> 1760212876 250091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165956&oldid=165953 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+90) 10
> 1760212930 393714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165957&oldid=165955 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+41) 10/* Implementations */
< 1760213259 554808 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1760213294 94833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165958&oldid=165954 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+373) 10I don't think generative AI should be used to generate articles for topics like this
> 1760213306 510253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:John Backus Turing Award Lecture14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165959&oldid=165958 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+7) 10wording
> 1760213337 731302 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165960&oldid=165957 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10mark table headers
> 1760213349 297578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165961&oldid=165960 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+23) 10[[Category:Languages]]
< 1760213696 239093 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"a way out of variable abstinence"? My friend, you can always use lambda calculus! The reason that we want to avoid binders is because nominal logic is strictly more complicated than tacit logic!
> 1760213895 983534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02John Backus Turing Award Lecture10]]": this is apparently a review of a paper [https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/359576.359579], not a description of an esolang  there is also some chance that it is not public-domain
< 1760214015 957933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one meaningful copyright difference between the US and the UK is that in the US, things that are entirely machine-produced can't be copyrighted, whereas in the UK, they're considered copyrighted by the person who used the machine to create them – but that may be irrelevant if the LLM is plagiarising from a copyrighted source because in that case it isn't entirely machine-produced
< 1760214037 591243 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is frustratingly hard to work out whether LLM output is plagiarised or not, they're much better at covering their tracks than humans are
< 1760214100 706563 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, I consider the typical LLM output to not be much more useful than the prompt, so the deletion log message contains the primary useful content
< 1760214124 306418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and even if it isn't LLM output it's still offtopic, as you pointed out)
< 1760214260 434694 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: USA: If a machine happens to produce an output which is indistinguishable from a registered work with the Copyright Office (i.e. a copy exists at the Library of Congress) then the machine's output is also copyrighted. The machine is not covered by that copyright.
< 1760214309 265897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, unless it's fair use (in which case it's still copyrighted, but not infringing) – there's some major court cases going on about that at the moment
< 1760214319 277601 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :USA courts are still juggling exactly how to deal with this, but "the machine generated it for me" isn't actually a defense; at best, it can establish a fair-use defense, which is affirmative in USA. That is, "I was allowed to infringe: the machine generated it for me, and I didn't tell it to infringe!"
< 1760214350 474958 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Common misconception! Lucky 10000: Fair use is an affirmative defense here, so it *is* infringement. It's just infringement that we're willing to overlook because we're so magnanimous~
< 1760214379 958935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if you have an affirmative defence I think it's a semantic issue whether anything was infringed or not
< 1760214392 629317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is conceptually no different from not infringing
< 1760214411 210310 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Affirmative defense here means that yes, the crime/tort was committed, but the defendant has a good reason for doing it.
< 1760214416 386491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this sort of equivalence often becomes relevant in law, e.g. promising not to sue someone for copyright infringement is considered to be a form of license)
< 1760214591 614945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had an analogy for this: https://awful.systems/comment/7846375 (and followed up in https://awful.systems/comment/8666898) about a drunk guy on a street corner who happens to be pretty good at reciting Star Wars.
< 1760214626 293870 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Suppose a transient person on a street corner is babbling. Occasionally they spout what sounds like a quote from a Star Wars film. Intrigued, we prompt the transient to recite the entirety of Star Wars, and they proceed to mostly recreate the original film, complete with sound effects and voice acting, only getting a few details wrong."
< 1760214636 758465 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Does it matter whether the transient paid to watch the original film (as opposed to somebody else paying the fee)? No, their recreation might be candid and yet not faithful enough to infringe. Is Lucas entitled to a licensing fee for every time the transient happens to learn something about Star Wars? Eh, not yet, but Disney’s working on it."
< 1760214727 915697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Incidentally, those links are also my commentary on the court cases. Unlike my peers, I'm not cheering for copyright, and I'm never going to cheer for Disney or Nintendo to get more power over their IP.
< 1760214817 888273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember thinking that copyright laws being weakened would probably be a good thing, but this is just about the stupidest possible way to do it
< 1760214830 546155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I'd much rather they got weakened in an intentional and well-thought-out way
< 1760214866 382210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: isn't a too polite or too impolite problem rejected too at compile time? or a program that doesn't start with a statement header?
< 1760214894 679633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: a) yes, b) no but C-INTERCAL has a known bug in that regard (which may have become a feature over time)
< 1760214920 6304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically the C-INTERCAL implementation parses bytes before the first statement identifier as being a statement on their own, but forgets to set the probability field
< 1760214932 366281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it runs with 0% probability and thus actually allows you to put arbitrary information at the start of the program
< 1760214943 950060 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, Nintendo is never going to go quietly. I mention *Sega v. Accolade* and *Galoob v. Nintendo*, which you might recognize; these are why it's legal to emulate and mod consoles in the USA.
< 1760214976 47301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine Nintendo isn't very represented in the training data, except for things like screenshots and video streams
< 1760214982 902307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If establishing a right to machine learning is required to establish a right to libraries, which we currently don't have, then so be it.
< 1760215033 51506 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. To quote ZFG, "the only time we hear from Nintendo is copyright complaints". They're in there; they're the most popular toymaker in the world, controlling the most profitable IP in the world (Pokémon).
< 1760215035 938673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you ask an LLM to generate a new game for you as a ROM for, e.g., the Nintendo 64, it is probably not going to be able to manage it
< 1760215083 935371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :" a drunk guy on the street corner /  a transient person" => strange euphemism
< 1760215084 196744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Nintendo's main complaint about this would be LLMs generating, e.g., pictures of Mario – but that's more or less equivalent to the complaints artists have and not very related to video games
< 1760215112 638480 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But Nintendo doesn't just claim copyright over the programs. They also claim character and setting copyrights. Nintendo's multi-front fight against Pocketpair (Palworld) shows that they aren't just defending the bytecode.
< 1760215148 446490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right – but my point is that this is effectively equivalent to, e.g., the situation Disney is in
< 1760215156 60667 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, reciting most of the original A New Hope complete with sound effects would actually be kind of impressive if real time. 
< 1760215157 334221 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I forgot that it was a homeless guy instead of a drunk guy, sorry. Neither attribute is essential for the legal theory, but that particular forum only allows debate if it follows specific rules about being insulting ("funny").
< 1760215158 236502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nintendo might fight harder than Disney does, but they might not
< 1760215235 767449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bytes before the frist statement identifier as its own statement but 0% probability => hehe
< 1760215245 636884 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Disney's funding crap like Glaze and Nightshade; they know that diffusion models aren't going away, so they're funding ways to make their movies unusable as training data. It's obviously unworkable for information-theoretic reasons but still worth pointing out.
< 1760215257 916979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it is an amazing bug because it's actually useful
< 1760215272 316658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of like the way the reference Malbolge interpreter treats source code bytes that have the high bit set
< 1760215292 826038 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: The joke is partially self-referential; this crowd would readily remember the scene in Return of the Jedi where C-3PO performs the entirety of Star Wars in Ewok language, complete with sound effects.
< 1760215534 719574 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Anyway, the case I've been mentioning to people is *Authors Guild v Google*. This case is two decades old! Google was scanning books and authors didn't like it so they got their publishers to sue. Google won somewhat; they established the right to digitize owned copies and build private databases that summarize.
< 1760215572 448903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, this sort of case has tendency to finish in a way that still leaves things unclear
< 1760215635 987000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see *Anthropic* (and *Meta* to a much lesser degree) as furthering this right, so that a digital archivist may consider *all* of their collection to be eligible for private machine learning and distillation. I personally want this right so I can e.g. use perceptual hashing to manage photos that I've taken on a phone, using my laptop and fileserver.
< 1760215703 465962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see a potentially reasonable outcome along the lines of "you're allowed to store and train on and process all this data, but you can't reproduce substantial amounts to the general public" – unfortunately the current AI companies would find that hard to comply with
< 1760215725 539475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What *Anthropic* will likely end up saying for us is that our right to distillation doesn't extend to pirated materials, but only lawfully-purchased copies. At the same time, it'll further delimit the USA's right of first sale, which says that you can't force-attach licenses to resold copyrighted materials.
< 1760215792 799302 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Authors Guild* already says something like "you're allowed to store, train on, and process the book data *and* you may reproduce it for the public in a variety of forms provided that you're not just clearly making on-demand printable full-book copies"
< 1760215817 468308 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN #esolangs * :unknown
< 1760215901 86158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what I'm most worried about would be a verdict which says, in effect, "big companies are allowed to do what they want with copyrighted material but individuals aren't"
< 1760215938 486178 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah big companies can go fuck them self
< 1760215941 106140 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which really shouldn't be the outcome but somehow it's hard to be confident
< 1760215951 61446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's been the case ever since the Mickey Mouse Act.
< 1760216034 823778 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, part of why I'm so dour about copyright is that it's not *for* us. It's for large publishing houses. Blizzard is allowed to steal artwork from its employees and the commons; meanwhile it's a crime to copy RAM that Blizzard's game happens to occupy. Riot, Disney, and Nintendo have all been caught appropriating artwork too.
< 1760216074 252301 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few special cases where big companies can do more than individuals, but I don't think there'll be a general judgement stating that for all cases
< 1760216115 754721 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my current beliefs are currently along the lines of a) it is clearly possible to have sensible copyright rules, b) there are multiple reasonable forms those could take, c) the world's current copyright rules unfortunately aren't sensible
< 1760216134 9276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Working-for-hire is *prima facie* unconstitutional. The copyright law, as written, explicitly disenfranchises artists and allows employers to own art that they could not have made themselves. Yet no constitutional challenge has ever been heard, nor ever will be heard.
< 1760216140 268987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least it's mostly possible to work within them
< 1760216175 347418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I've mostly just given up hope of having them fixed, and am merely hoping they won't become even worse
< 1760216189 909350 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760216199 445588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I guess the counterargument there is that if works for hire didn't work like that, nobody would ever hire artists
< 1760216220 716805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure I agree with it
< 1760216227 741079 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :the issue is that we consume art, art should not be consumed
< 1760216238 98208 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. We're running out of things that require labor, so we need to stop imagining that jobs are a good thing. It's time for a proper UBI.
< 1760216279 259789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kkkkkkkkturbokom: Art is cultural warfare. The art produced by big capitalist publishers is, one way or another, pushing the ideals of capitalism and big publishing.
< 1760216284 636802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I continue to view UBI as a desirable end goal with no realistic path to reaching it
< 1760216320 847333 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :we are in society of consumes and is make more damages than all that fa*cist criminal in 20 years of tiranny (22 - 45)  
< 1760216336 131251 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :criminals*
< 1760216413 279428 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kkkkkkkkturbokom: The current topic is about how copyright affects the wiki. Right now, we require everything to be public-domain or equivalent, even if it is generated by AI. We're talking about how copyright differs between the USA and UK.
> 1760216425 466240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Akirademenech 5*  10New user account
< 1760216458 8505 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry guys
< 1760216482 807132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is interesting to note that almost everything I've deleted as a copyright violation would also have been undesirable for other reasons
< 1760216485 906044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there might be a lesson there
< 1760216496 246821 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It happens whenever a petrostate has a well-managed state fund, e.g. Alaska or Kuwait. So that's one realistic path for petrostates, at least. But I agree that it will likely take some [offtopic] or [redacted] before we make progress.
< 1760216526 290696 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it PRIVMSG #esolangs :see you
< 1760216529 649170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does mean that i have little incentive to want to change the policy, as it isn't getting in the way
< 1760216530 672642 :kkkkkkkkturbokom!~user@host-82-52-204-235.retail.telecomitalia.it QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760217131 694403 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760217289 460772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165962&oldid=165915 5* 03Akirademenech 5* (+593) 10/* Introductions */
> 1760217642 817146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Akirademenech14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165963 5* 03Akirademenech 5* (+12) 10Created page with "Hello there!"
< 1760218642 253270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to change what policy?
< 1760218886 765822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: copyright
< 1760220006 368058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760220149 620926 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760220727 901897 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: didn't fizzie say that we probably won't change that because the hosting provider insists on it, so we change it only if someone else pays for the hosting?
< 1760221713 816182 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1760222050 783890 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1760222480 453465 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't remember discussing it with them at least in any detail. There's probably an implicit assumption that nobody's making any money from the website, and that's it has broadly speaking a charitable purpose. But I don't think they've said anything about public-domain-vs-other-permissive-licenses or anything.
< 1760222536 953753 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If we were a registered UK charity, they might technically qualify for a (negligible) tax relief, but we're not.
< 1760222875 757590 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could also potentially Gift Aid (a UK-specific charitable donation tax thing for individuals) the yearly domain renewal fee, which would in principle equate to a 20% discount (the charity can claim 25% of all their Gift Aid donations from the government) *and* a tax break for me.
< 1760223156 693188 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So it's more like a 56% discount all in all, if I did the numbers right. ...out of a yearly expense of (IIRC) $15.99 + 20% VAT, so probably not worth it.
< 1760223757 964346 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(If it was a charity, I could also give it some of the money my employer allocates for each employee to send to charities once a year near the holiday season. Except, although I can't precisely say why, that does feel like it would be somehow unethical.)
< 1760223841 550256 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760224630 233441 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1760224676 560555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Distal Interphalangeal Joint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165964&oldid=165961 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+812) 10chording
> 1760227957 458770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sonjalang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165965&oldid=163701 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+0) 10/* Indents */
> 1760228173 732441 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sonjalang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165966&oldid=165965 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+39) 10/* Arithmetic */
> 1760228284 464405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sonjalang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165967&oldid=165966 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (+0) 10/* Other statements */
> 1760228359 641909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sonjalang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165968&oldid=165967 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (-35) 10/* Exceptions */
> 1760228519 328805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Visible Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165969&oldid=140486 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (-1) 10/* Number literals */
< 1760228621 16478 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760228662 773961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Visible Whitespace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165970&oldid=165969 5* 03HaleyHalcyon 5* (-13) 10/* Commands */
< 1760229808 715046 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760230266 372795 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760230377 100582 :Guest48!~Guest48@host-79teq3b6b1wbgwdqj.pd.sdm-w7d1-a.v6.dfn.nl JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest48
< 1760230820 672669 :Guest48!~Guest48@host-79teq3b6b1wbgwdqj.pd.sdm-w7d1-a.v6.dfn.nl QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1760232524 743268 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760232535 945620 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs sorear :sorear
< 1760234704 418717 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760234738 887507 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1760235787 923668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165971&oldid=165936 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+767) 10
> 1760239631 272390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165972&oldid=165790 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+57) 10
> 1760239754 622439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165973&oldid=165930 5* 03H33T33 5* (+66) 10
> 1760240542 645503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flowchart14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165974&oldid=157426 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+37) 10distinguish
> 1760240555 640869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flow chart14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165975&oldid=41524 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+36) 10distinguish
< 1760244928 720156 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo got safe arrays in POSIX shell https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BXzjG5MS/
< 1760244976 92850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lisbeths: I don't understand, sorry.
< 1760244999 269417 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :posix doesn't guarantee arrays
< 1760245016 307753 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you are coding in a POSIX compliant shell script it was previously thought that you couldn't true arrays
< 1760245054 289656 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, okay.
< 1760245133 884128 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol, yeah
< 1760245145 750550 :JAA!~JAA@user/meow/JAA PRIVMSG #esolangs :You only get the fake array in $@.
> 1760252133 600434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165976&oldid=165971 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+117) 10
< 1760253397 758575 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760254918 510095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SuperSMG5 5*  10New user account
< 1760257124 781120 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760257133 877953 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1760259076 337857 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760264022 811118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760264280 64276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 0377Y 5*  10New user account
> 1760264525 74119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abcout14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165977&oldid=96971 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+127) 10Turing-incomplete
> 1760265447 180632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165978&oldid=165976 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+318) 10
< 1760265746 448729 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1760266081 615947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165979&oldid=165978 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+33) 10
> 1760267333 992717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SHITS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165980&oldid=144737 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+3) 10/* Commands */
< 1760268961 420532 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760268981 576018 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760269133 196880 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760272039 434020 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1760272518 99552 :c0ffee!~c0ffee@226.186.52.36.ap.yournet.ne.jp JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] c0ffee
< 1760272709 899318 :c0ffee!~c0ffee@226.186.52.36.ap.yournet.ne.jp QUIT :Client Quit
> 1760274137 694423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Saumus Paskevi 5*  10New user account
> 1760275158 948827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165981&oldid=165962 5* 03Saumus Paskevi 5* (+183) 10mhm
< 1760278368 303411 :thorium1256!~cube@idlerpg/player/thorium1256 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1760279538 331062 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760281674 743450 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760281749 972329 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1760285267 639548 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760290374 744149 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760290385 249053 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1760291626 516279 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760292019 507005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165982&oldid=165981 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+191) 10
> 1760293363 89558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoChar14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165983 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+1207) 10My Esolang that isnt finished may come to esolangs.org!
> 1760293432 965627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoChar14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165984&oldid=165983 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+23) 10
< 1760293875 530465 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1760294415 900827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165985&oldid=165982 5* 0377Y 5* (+113) 10
> 1760294471 900585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Expression14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165986&oldid=157515 5* 0377Y 5* (-7) 10Add my interpreter
< 1760294619 79468 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1760295266 604634 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760295383 188395 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: friend?
< 1760295383 974573 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i would have to fnord the balance much this is costing the uk economy, and the only people of religious or political, that we have is the deal,
< 1760295395 907098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`'
< 1760295398 749468 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :305)  I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything   Yes.   And the best thing is: it is the correct opinion.
< 1760295406 728179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' friend
< 1760295408 146275 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :412)  It's ok guys.  I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality. \ 435)  Taneb's been hit by melancholy.   He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y \ 478)  I keep asking random people for "friendship " and it's crippling \ 531)  if all my Facebo
< 1760295427 346683 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: we must protect the pound from
< 1760295427 884233 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i of the united nations, to support and help the disabled, the young, the government think the ban the box initiative, the first global movement, and the minister the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i have been to fnord 2)
< 1760295461 810281 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah yes, the emoticon for cool cyberpunk glasses, fnord 2)
< 1760295482 451037 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My actual glasses actually look like B)
< 1760295614 272581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"the minister for that" should be a real title
< 1760295686 226402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box -- interesting name for what it is
< 1760295738 288526 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and I have no clue whether the UK parliament discussed this but it's at least possible)
> 1760296584 129023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Expression14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165987&oldid=165986 5* 0377Y 5* (-1) 10Convert case
< 1760297483 10453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ukparl
< 1760297483 65251 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
< 1760299474 747158 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760299492 831016 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1760299803 869056 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Minister for This and That.
< 1760299818 223161 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Takes care of things not in scope for other ministers.
< 1760302474 747133 :integral!sid296274@user/integral QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760302487 642848 :integral!sid296274@user/integral JOIN #esolangs integral :bsmith
< 1760304817 213526 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1760304817 284034 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1760307237 175404 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760307841 546109 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760307972 641310 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760308098 106096 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1760308373 145219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy/Draft14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165988 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+186) 10draft page
> 1760309470 13245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:77Y14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165989 5* 0377Y 5* (+108) 10Created page with "I'm 77Y! I have created interpreters for the following [[esoteric programming language]]s:  * [[Expression]]"
< 1760314074 745842 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1760314089 671369 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1760314410 891849 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1760314572 966596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Randesoreader 5*  10New user account
> 1760316192 767773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165990&oldid=165985 5* 03Randesoreader 5* (+190) 10
< 1760317668 950020 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760317820 507096 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760317820 507186 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760317848 543359 :cbs!df2953d28a@2a03:6000:1812:100::1451 JOIN #esolangs cbs :cbs
< 1760317888 501031 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760318028 889069 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1760318041 545925 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760318041 766061 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760318118 541569 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1760318213 353372 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 JOIN #esolangs * :op_4
< 1760318256 405371 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760318256 885553 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 NICK :op_4
< 1760318256 912747 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760318301 355316 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1760318636 21627 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
> 1760319034 349200 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoChar14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165991&oldid=165984 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+195) 10
> 1760323315 254559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Librarian 5*  10New user account
> 1760323565 618065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165992&oldid=165712 5* 03Randesoreader 5* (+574) 10
> 1760323637 86552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165993&oldid=165990 5* 03Librarian 5* (+223) 10
> 1760324881 300985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Middle Manager14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=165994 5* 03Librarian 5* (+1726) 10Add initial wiki page.
< 1760325194 799311 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1760325216 145104 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1760325549 97435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165995&oldid=165362 5* 03Librarian 5* (+71) 10chore: Add Middle Manager link
> 1760325615 799964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165996&oldid=165928 5* 03Librarian 5* (+21) 10
< 1760325763 552250 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
> 1760325831 962130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Middle Manager14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165997&oldid=165994 5* 03Librarian 5* (+106) 10chore: Add categories
> 1760325886 610254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Middle Manager14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165998&oldid=165997 5* 03Librarian 5* (+0) 10
> 1760326852 971150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Expression14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=165999&oldid=165987 5* 0377Y 5* (+30) 10
> 1760326975 605546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166000&oldid=158097 5* 0377Y 5* (+361) 10Add interpreter
> 1760327042 94388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:77Y14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166001&oldid=165989 5* 0377Y 5* (+9) 10
< 1760328305 102327 :im77Y!~im77Y@2600:4040:52c8:9b00:d5c3:e243:cab1:616b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] im77Y
> 1760330307 432849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thisthat14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166002&oldid=165952 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+27) 10[[Category:Unimplemented]]
< 1760330800 467693 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760331078 57872 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1760333260 297552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ikiwekiwow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166003 5* 03Saumus Paskevi 5* (+393) 10Created page with "=Introduction= Ikiwekiwow is a programming language. The name comes from what it's creator describes as "the sound of the discs that those DJs make when they spin them around". The creator was disappointed that the use of Boolean in computers is only really in 
> 1760336653 578127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166004&oldid=165992 5* 03Randesoreader 5* (+23) 10
> 1760336712 570695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166005&oldid=166004 5* 03Randesoreader 5* (+10) 10
< 1760338593 102616 :im77Y!~im77Y@2600:4040:52c8:9b00:d5c3:e243:cab1:616b QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1760339186 154949 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760339298 114573 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1760339804 798023 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760347493 113698 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760347528 137592 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760352041 250380 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
> 1760354398 289165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ikiwekiwow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166006&oldid=166003 5* 03Saumus Paskevi 5* (+1429) 10mhm
< 1760354524 521663 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760355308 583488 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760355341 576040 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760355387 351666 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1760355609 465515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Classical logic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166007 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+659) 10Created page with "Classic logic is a system for proof == Operators ==  or                        and                       not                       xor                     =[  implies/conditional       bimplies/bi conditional   turnstile/proves         == Truth values ==  false
> 1760356791 48435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Erase14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166008 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+298) 10Created page with "Erase is an esolang where you erase == Commands ==  erase  - erases the character at x  print  - prints the character at x  if   - goes to y if character at x is T == Program ==  helo wrd  print 0  print 1  print 2  print 2  print 3  print 4  print 5  print 3
> 1760358869 964491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ikiwekiwow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166009&oldid=166006 5* 03Corbin 5* (+194) 10/* Input and Output */ Decidable in linear time! It's just 2SAT.
< 1760359682 854037 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760360818 102651 :im77Y!~im77Y@2600:4040:52c8:9b00:d5c3:e243:cab1:616b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] im77Y
< 1760361715 744161 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1760361799 994491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do not14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166010 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+145) 10Created page with "When you run code, it tells you "Do NOT:" and the code == Do NOT: program ==  (literally nothing don't put anything) == Don't eat program ==  eat"
> 1760361914 302540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do not14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166011&oldid=166010 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+572) 10
< 1760361918 485956 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760362596 821483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166012&oldid=130051 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+54) 10
< 1760365218 501307 :im77Y!~im77Y@2600:4040:52c8:9b00:d5c3:e243:cab1:616b QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1760365802 20306 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1760366224 642384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy/Draft14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166013&oldid=165988 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+453) 10stroking
< 1760366410 372618 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :IBM mainframe terminology uses "esoteric" in a rather esoteric way. IIUC it's assigning a name to a group of devices
< 1760367084 746725 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1334
< 1760367087 753668 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1760367411 315782 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760369743 337204 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760372551 274315 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :FORTRAN IV string constants can't be 0 characters
< 1760372597 565634 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/fortran/GC28-6515-11_IBM_System360_and_System370_FORTRAN_IV_Language_Sep83.pdf
< 1760372643 815696 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Each character requires one byte of storage. The number of characters in the string, including blanks, may not be less than 1 or greater than 255."
> 1760373036 317973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166014&oldid=165547 5* 03DolphyWind 5* (+5) 10Fix XKCD Random Number program
< 1760374982 192425 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760375065 551782 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760375215 137449 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760375909 582207 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760376768 878922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166015&oldid=156507 5* 03Akira 5* (+0) 10
< 1760377364 946806 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760377412 329512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pointfree programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166016 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+126) 10Created page with "https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/359576.359579  --> look at: 13.3.4 Cells, fetching, and storing.  Is this pointfree or not?"
> 1760377446 311778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166017&oldid=166015 5* 03Akira 5* (+105) 10
< 1760378335 122141 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Heh. Like they do every year, they did one of those silly keyboards, and this year's made me chuckle: https://github.com/google/mozc-devices/tree/main/mozc-dial
< 1760378686 954663 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1760378721 321419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166018&oldid=166017 5* 03Akira 5* (+98) 10
> 1760379323 428360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166019&oldid=166018 5* 03Akira 5* (+32) 10
< 1760379463 93018 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1760379801 782934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166020&oldid=166019 5* 03Akira 5* (+70) 10
> 1760382271 132246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Erase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166021&oldid=166008 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+111) 10
< 1760382780 976576 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1760382959 20913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166022&oldid=166020 5* 03Akira 5* (+113) 10
< 1760385760 480699 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1760388802 608250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VarStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166023&oldid=165319 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+221) 10Rectified the Bitwise Cyclic Tag program and supplemented a perpetual cat program as a fourth example.
> 1760388847 672867 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07VarStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166024&oldid=166023 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+166) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the VarStack programming language on GitHub and altered the Unimplemented tag to Implemented.
< 1760390100 478622 :yewscion__!~yewscion@172.58.240.190 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760390438 202465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck code generation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166025&oldid=165676 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+2) 10/* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
> 1760390480 319084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166026&oldid=166022 5* 03Akira 5* (+386) 10
< 1760390537 771667 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1760390782 916361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C2BF (2025)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166027&oldid=165674 5* 03Iacgm 5* (-57) 10
> 1760390875 134450 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C2BF (2025)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166028&oldid=166027 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+0) 10
> 1760390891 735153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C2BF (2025)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166029&oldid=166028 5* 03Iacgm 5* (+4) 10
< 1760391367 955638 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I read is that GCC has a "gnu::offset" parameter for #embed and Clang has a "clang::offset" parameter for #embed and they seem to have the same or a similar meaning. Perhaps they (both GCC and Clang) should implement "gnu::offset" and "clang::offset" with the same meaning so that programs that use that parameter can be used with both compilers.
< 1760391402 798363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1760392937 962780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syntax Null Language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166030&oldid=166026 5* 03Akira 5* (+283) 10
< 1760393365 447447 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:f86b:2618:bf3:3b08 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760396167 397090 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: yes, clang usually eventually implements most of the gcc extensions, especially if it can be added without breaking stuff, so if they really have the same meaning then that'll probably happen
< 1760396256 265193 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think being able to compile the linux kernel source is a large part of what drove the development of all those gcc extensions into clang, such as adding labelled structure initializers old syntax
< 1760396272 523128 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(old syntax uses colons instead of square brackets and equals sign)
< 1760397124 299028 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs ://SSABEND DD SYSOUT=*
< 1760397133 115058 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oops //SYSABEND DD SYSOUT=*
< 1760397351 460272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way it's a bit surprising that the kernel didn't switch to the C99 syntax
< 1760397355 616450 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess there wasn't enough gain
< 1760398378 998222 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the kernel does a lot of things that aren't standard in C or even normally done in user-space programs
< 1760398402 126032 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably a bit less now that standard C has atomics and fences in it, but still
< 1760398455 211156 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though on the other hand, there are three mostly independent compilers that could compile the kernel at some point: gcc, clang, and bellard's tcc, so I think the C extensions perhaps aren't the bottleneck
< 1760398509 861229 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and right now I don't really see what other compiler you'd even want to port it to. I don't think there's any incentive to port to MSVC, and Intel seems to be giving up on their existing compiler and mostly embracing clang, though of course they haven't completely thrown away their compiler yet
< 1760398578 459042 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the tricky question is more when it's safe and future-proof enough to allow rust (or zig or C++) code into the kernel
< 1760398617 314021 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust will probably eventually have two independent compilers (though probably not two mostly independent standard libraries), but it'll take a few more years
< 1760398654 183151 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think zig had two compilers at some point but the bootstrapping one is now deprecated and will be phased out
< 1760398701 932645 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gcc went hard into C++ so there's no question C++ will be supported forever, but unlike with rust or zig it's not clear how much C++ would gain for the kernel, as most of its features aren't very appropriate for the kernel
> 1760399207 670230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Erase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166031&oldid=166021 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+23) 10
> 1760400826 197730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Erase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166032&oldid=166031 5* 03BestCoder 5* (+251) 10
> 1760400875 774772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Erase14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166033&oldid=166032 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-3) 10/* 100 10 1 program */
< 1760401321 701962 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760403926 419939 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
> 1760405720 914539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166034 5* 03Corbin 5* (+910) 10Stub. Is it "whence" or "thence" in this mood? English is hard!
< 1760405901 253819 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL that function-level programming is a real thing. I'd thought that the WP page on the topic is original research (and there's an OR banner there since 2018, I'm not alone) because it's not defined in Backus' paper which defines the FP programming system, "Can computing be liberated from the Von Neumann paradigm?" the famous 1978 paper.
< 1760405969 340849 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's defined in this paywalled 1981 paper, "Function level programs as mathematical objects" https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/800223.806757 which isn't cited on WP. Based on this, I will suggest that we add a subcategory of [[category:functional paradigm]] just for function-level languages.
> 1760406624 485641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166035&oldid=162715 5* 03Corbin 5* (+350) 10/* Functional languages */ Yoinking and improving a cite. I'm using Dr. Cunha's preferred name from their GitHub [https://alcinocunha.github.io/ here]. I could have sworn that they had another paper from maybe 2007, book-length, on the topic; but I cannot find it. 
> 1760407295 470132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FP trivia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166036&oldid=164100 5* 03Corbin 5* (-1305) 10Big cleanup: refs, bluelinks, a bit of grammar, infobox, categories.
> 1760408826 449482 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03H1dro0091! 5*  10New user account
> 1760411404 990369 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ab14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166037 5* 03Akirademenech 5* (+2535) 10Created page with "'''Ab''' (or, alternatively, '''ab''' or even '''aB''', depending on the taste of the writer) is an esolang proposed by [[User:Akirademenech]].  It is directly inspired by [[BitChanger]] (using only binary values and less instructions than [[brainfuck|Brainfuck]]) and 
< 1760411522 273919 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: think of "whence" as an abbreviation of "from where" and "thence" as an abbreviation of "from there", that's the easiest way to tell them apart
< 1760411548 37421 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(likewise, "whither" as "to where" and "thither" as "to there")
< 1760411573 329827 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that there's much reason to use theses words nowadays, but I'm on #esoteric so there doesn't really need to be a reason
< 1760411647 781562 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : probably a bit less now that standard C has atomics and fences in it, but still ← the kernel doesn't use the C++ atomics (nor the version of them that got imported into C) but its own version
< 1760411672 248515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the C++ committee tried for several years to specify atomics that worked like Linux's version and gave up
< 1760411721 475455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a suspicion that kernels can get away with concurrency-related things that don't make sense in userspace, because they have more control over pre-emption and the like
< 1760411907 826348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(some of those fun concurrency-related things are available in userspace nowadays with the kernel's help, like membarrier(2) and rseq(2))
> 1760414185 101337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166038&oldid=165993 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+94) 10
> 1760414193 261875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166039 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+2085) 10Created page with "PolarBF is a [[brainfuck]]-inspired [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:H1dro0091!|H1dro]].  == Language overview == Unlike [[brainfuck]], PolarBF uses a circular(ish?) tape with two pointer position 
> 1760414591 179998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SECRET PUZZLE!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166040&oldid=163686 5* 03Mouldyair 5* (+40) 10
< 1760416397 273375 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Secrets from the land of tin! Thanks.
> 1760416674 351008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166041&oldid=165458 5* 03Corbin 5* (+674) 10/* Function-level programming */ new section
> 1760417420 966383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166042&oldid=166035 5* 03Corbin 5* (+498) 10Started as formatting, ended up adding a paragraph about how BF is concatenative and pointfree.
> 1760418270 300561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166043&oldid=166016 5* 03Corbin 5* (+819) 10FP is tacit, yes. If you want an example of a more-tacit functional language, consider Cammy.
< 1760419254 668446 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :membarrier and rseq? I hadn't heard of these, let me look them up. are they useful on modern x86_64?
< 1760419472 761631 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, I guess the C++ and C atomics aren't really suited because they try to transparently fall back to inter-thread locking when the CPU can't do the atomic operation, and that would be stupid in the kernel. but even so hopefully those atomics may have encouraged the compiler writers to clean up the semantics of what memory access reorder optimizations the compiler is allowed to do when, so the 
< 1760419478 986460 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kernel would indirectly benefit.
< 1760419504 673016 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except when modifying the floating-point environment is involved -- compilers still don't know how that works)
< 1760419545 249783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : membarrier and rseq? I hadn't heard of these, let me look them up. are they useful on modern x86_64? ← they're both useful, but membarrier is very special-purpose and rseq is theoretically potentially awesome but hard to use
< 1760419565 334826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also trying to get compilers to understand rseq may be even harder than getting them to understand atomics
< 1760419649 908010 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh, there doesn't seem to be an rseq manpage
< 1760419662 915238 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/dir_all_alphabetic.html
< 1760419698 240836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't have an rseq manpage
< 1760419701 975481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's listed in syscalls(2)
< 1760419728 464380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically what it does is to set up a region of code addresses for which, if you get pre-empted within that range, it longjmps out to a predefined label
< 1760419751 451495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so each instruction in that range can assume that the process didn't get pre-empted since the start of the range
< 1760419771 180197 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :guess I'll have to look it up in the kernel source code documentations if I want to know, hopefully there's a text file in there
< 1760419799 689044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is combined with a way to find out which CPU the process is running on (information which you couldn't usefully use without rseq, because it might change at any time as a result of pre-emption)
> 1760419855 902 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166044&oldid=161233 5* 03Corbin 5* (-3) 10Fix renamed category.
< 1760419883 423079 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so an alternate take on the old software transactional memory thing?
< 1760419902 764499 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a new take for something that was useful on old CPUs, except now it's useful again
< 1760419934 705235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's reminiscent of software transactional memory in some ways, but feels quite different in how you use it
< 1760419960 56856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can do things like have CPU-local variables and know that they aren't being contended on because they're only accessed from a single CPU
< 1760420064 557401 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is among those inter-thread synchronization optimizations that I'll probably never want to use, even if I know it's cool and someone else might have fun with it
< 1760420163 60603 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :membarrier too
< 1760420288 878360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool in theory, but if you need them then you're probably doing too much inter-thread synchronization and aren't dividing the tasks among CPUs well enough
< 1760420313 608843 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and since these are clearly userspace, they aren't among the cases when you need inter-CPU synchronization to divide hardware inputs well
< 1760420496 598217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think rseq is more for non-synchronization-heavy cases where you have a lot more threads than CPUs, and so maintaining separate thread-local state for each of the threads would be wasteful
< 1760421020 12349 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760423980 889574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smoothbrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166045&oldid=165354 5* 03Ashli Katt 5* (+32) 10/* IO */ Clarify that line feed flattening should be done on STDIN
> 1760424550 972807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smoothbrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166046&oldid=166045 5* 03Ashli Katt 5* (-47) 10/* Program */ More clearly define input text encoding and part of the language spec, and not as a validation thing by compilers
< 1760426932 252589 :tromp!~textual@89-99-43-152.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760426945 927915 :tromp!~textual@89-99-43-152.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760432901 845335 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760434648 770401 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Moin
> 1760435974 307226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smoothbrain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166047&oldid=166046 5* 03Ashli Katt 5* (-1277) 10Rewrite major portions for readability
> 1760436231 514913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Timwi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166048&oldid=128493 5* 03Timwi 5* (-54) 10
< 1760436716 678124 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It sounds like an optimistic concurrency primitive (which is related to STM)
> 1760436822 845649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166049&oldid=165979 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+5247) 10add a fucking 900-line program for 99 bottles of beer
< 1760436911 890105 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or perhaps pithily, sort of a signal handler for preemption? Except longjmp doesn't push a signal stack.
< 1760441752 636383 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760441785 536208 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1760446952 853036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166050 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+27) 10Created page with "[[User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox]]"
> 1760446997 780521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166051 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+35) 10Created page with "[[User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF]]"
> 1760447161 662909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166052&oldid=166039 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+82) 10
< 1760447222 772817 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1760447827 886639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166053&oldid=165609 5* 03U 5* (+10) 10
> 1760448585 291785 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166054&oldid=166052 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+12) 10
< 1760452864 104187 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether Basic Stack is actually TC. It has all of the right ingredients but it's not clear that they combine correctly.
< 1760452884 493469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' basic
< 1760452887 328195 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10)  GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 100)  alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles \ 539)  elliott: so what are the two issues with xfce?   they're very unlikely to fuck up Xfce, and it can be made to work basically exactly like gnome two \ 561) (Of Minecraft:
< 1760452953 113566 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also don't want to be the guy who doubts that an 11yr kid can produce a TC proof, since a faithful embedding *does* give a valid proof. But given how they expanded the 99 bottles program, I'm not sure how they're actually verifying their results; it doesn't seem like they have the grasp of looping required to wield recursion.
< 1760453934 92500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that reduction *mostly* works, but there's a subtlety in BCT where the program can wrap around immediately after a `1` command, causing the first bit of the program to be interpreted as a data bit to be conditionally appended.
< 1760453971 12939 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the translation is a bit odd because neither 11 nor 10 can result in an empty string, so the `istop;stop` in those is useless
< 1760454174 312544 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That subtlety could be avoided by reducing from CT ( https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag#The_language_CT ) instead.
< 1760454402 498541 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: my main complaint about that page would be that it never explains how the stack is indexed, or goes into the behavior for out-of-bounds access
< 1760454527 795592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it turns out that 0 is the bottom of the stack)
< 1760454577 993431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh there's a second thing that the translation doesn't address: The initial string should be translated to a sequence of `push` instructions.
< 1760454589 854872 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that's confusing to me too. Emulating cyclic tag requires picking/rolling the stack or having a second stack.
< 1760454595 792264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So... yeah, the proof isn't complete.
< 1760454626 114069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: The register keeps track of how much of the stack has been deleted.
< 1760454642 432411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you get a queue without ever deleting anything from the stack.
< 1760454678 1914 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, okay.
< 1760454692 72790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea definitely works. The execution of the idea is flawed in the details.
< 1760454761 774015 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's also obvious how to fix those flaws.
> 1760455291 563637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166055&oldid=165855 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+69) 10/* ESOLANGS */ add interpreters section
> 1760455309 557759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166056&oldid=166055 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+28) 10/* interpreters */
> 1760455347 181969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166057&oldid=166056 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1) 10/* interpreters */ wrong language
> 1760456947 38419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166058&oldid=166049 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (-8) 10no swearing anymore
> 1760457751 845275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166059&oldid=166054 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+85) 10
> 1760457811 724058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166060&oldid=166059 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (+11) 10
> 1760459938 422915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H1dro0091!/Sandbox/PolarBF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166061&oldid=166060 5* 03H1dro0091! 5* (-96) 10
< 1760461382 7028 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Out of mostly curiosity, does anyone happen to remember where the "iterated" (not the "Markov", the one that's closer to the traditional) scoring scheme for BF Joust tournament results came from?
> 1760461736 666168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoChar14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166062&oldid=165991 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+118) 10A few small fixes and edits
< 1760462686 928733 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Context is, I'm reimplementing the hill-running code in something I can still understand (unlike Ruby), and having some trouble with the iterative scoring. I'm comparing these against the current report.js data, and the basic version is off by a constant factor of N/(N-1) (where N is the hill size), but I'm not sure which one is "correct".
> 1760462868 611691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Elliktronic 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Syzygy.png10]]": Syzygy logo
< 1760463414 509232 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It also contains values larger than 100 for the current top 3, despite the code declaring a maximum score of 100, but that's the case for both old and new implementations, and I don't think there was any actual justification for assuming it's ≤ 100; that's just something the traditional scoring guarantees.)
> 1760463982 88599 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Elliktronic/Syzygy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166064 5* 03Elliktronic 5* (+10032) 10Created page with "[[File:Syzygy.png|thumb|alt=Syzygy Logo|Algebraic constellation]]{{infobox proglang |name=Syzygy |paradigms=algebraic, functional, constraint-based |author=[[User:Elliktronic]]  |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |typesys=static, strong, algebraic |memsy
> 1760465039 140700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Elliktronic 5*  10moved [[02User:Elliktronic/Syzygy10]] to [[User:Syzygy]]
> 1760465064 401645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Elliktronic 5*  10moved [[02User:Syzygy10]] to [[Esolang:Syzygy]]
> 1760465084 709191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Elliktronic 5*  10moved [[02User:Syzygy10]] to [[Syzygy]]
< 1760465186 457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh so close. I'll fix it if they don't figure it out in a few minutes.
< 1760465283 391837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they... moved the redirect
< 1760465379 750139 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Honestly, this increases my belief that they could be a category theorist. Mixing up source and target is our speciality.
< 1760465430 872074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it opposite day again
< 1760465504 943892 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760465514 964824 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe it's my fault. I decided to start learning jj (Jujutsu) today. The cosmic balance could have been disturbed.
< 1760466092 297439 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: can't help noticing that the iterated scoring divides by 0 eventually if you have a perfect ladder (program a always beats program b if a < b), because then D is upper triangular with zero diagonal. or maybe lower triangular; either way the N-th power of that will be 0.
> 1760467073 100375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Elliktronic/Syzygy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166071&oldid=166066 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-5) 10fix double redirect
< 1760467435 765155 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I don't have permissions to remove the redirect in the main namespace. I guess that I will *not* be able to fix that, sorry.
< 1760467787 821664 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Achieving that state on the hill left as an exercise for the reader. :) But yeah, that sounds right. (Or maybe "right" is not the right word.)
< 1760467858 622221 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: Oh yeah I wasn't suggesting that this would ever actually happen. But it does indicate that the computation is an ad-hoc thing without a strong underlying theory :)
< 1760468034 213605 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I could just proclaim the new implementation correct, it's not like anyone's going to check. Although looking at the code both sure seem like they should be implementing the same thing, so that's a little weird.
< 1760468062 444975 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Being off by a constant factor seems to indicate it should have something to do with the normalization (or eventual scaling) of `s`, but it's not a lot of code for either.
< 1760468123 193582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Only the final normalization step matters though, and surely you've checked that the N is the same?
< 1760468194 434219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, assuming the https://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/ page is correct; I haven't looked at code
< 1760468209 219655 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It *should* be. Though I can't actually conveniently run the Ruby code (locally, I mean -- it somehow barely works where it's running).
< 1760468282 492818 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The lens I'm viewing this through is, s^(i) is D^i s^(0), normalized.
< 1760468405 200927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually being off by a factor of N/(N-1) does point towards the N-s being different
< 1760468438 654488 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. It's just -- it's the same `n` that appears in the implementations of the other scoring methods, and those do produce equal results.
< 1760468459 420858 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm probably just missing something, though.
< 1760468544 25362 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :If I can be bothered to make the Ruby code runnable locally I'll just look at some intermediate values, surely it has to go awry at some specific point.
< 1760468725 557187 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I seem to recall in the Ruby implementation I've had a few "accidentally mutated something that was supposed to be immutable" issues over the years, so I guess it could be something boring like that.
< 1760468763 39244 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although it's the same `n` that's used to size all the matrices and vectors, and it's at least generating the same amount of numbers. Eh, I'll worry about it later.
< 1760468896 452329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: is n odd, resulting in n/2 being truncated to (n-1)/2?
< 1760468914 357083 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, that's a great point.
< 1760468945 766070 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Go code does convert it to float64 first, but the Ruby one is more implicit about typing.
< 1760468957 55210 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Yes, it's odd: there's 47 programs on the hill.)
< 1760469017 720247 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Specifically, Go code does `s.Scale(float64(rs.N)/(2*s.Norm(1)), s)` while Ruby does `s = s / s.sum.to_f * (n/2)`, and while I've forgotten all about Ruby typing, it's at least plausible that n/2 does integer division there.
< 1760469033 13293 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :In that case, the new numbers are probably the right numbers after all. :)
< 1760469066 836832 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I guess a constant factor doesn't *really* matter one way or the other though.)
< 1760469072 332277 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I tested that Ruby prints 1 for print(3/2);
< 1760469096 292799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which may be the first line of ruby code I've ever written? Hehehe.
< 1760470185 954568 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1760472184 554629 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760475213 359035 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1760475870 900334 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V JOIN #esolangs V :Wie?
< 1760476150 291561 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760476363 298434 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V JOIN #esolangs V :Wie?
< 1760476454 549818 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760478683 86490 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why is the ASN.1 Printable string type use the specific subset of ASCII that it does use? (I sometimes find this useful for some things which use a subset of this subset, such as domain names, though)
< 1760479220 744045 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: it's partly to exclude characters that are replaced in some ISO-646 variant
< 1760479227 527309 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there might be other reasons
< 1760479299 289834 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe some characters are excluded because certain printers or terminals or card readers don't handle it well
< 1760479485 824290 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does not seem to match exactly excluding only the characters that are replaced in ISO-646, although it seems close.
< 1760479691 612374 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe you are right about the terminals and card readers too; I don't know
> 1760480796 75288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166072 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+15375) 10important lesbian virtual machine
< 1760480869 547307 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
> 1760480973 646365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166073 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+237) 10Created page with "As instructed, I am giving feedback here in the talk page. I don't think the language is all that interesting, aside from the Python DSL gimmick. ~~~~"
< 1760481015 705517 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
> 1760481085 24894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166074&oldid=166072 5* 03RocketRace 5* (-7) 10
> 1760481126 640940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166075&oldid=153663 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+103) 10
> 1760481177 305065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166076&oldid=166075 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+45) 10
> 1760482679 402746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166077&oldid=166074 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+23) 10/* Some comments on syntax: */
> 1760482794 551479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166078&oldid=166077 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+45) 10/* Below are long nested lists relating to semantics: */
> 1760482808 933686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166079&oldid=166078 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+2) 10/* Below are long nested lists relating to semantics: */
> 1760483967 652832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166080&oldid=165819 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-4) 10found a better 5/6,1;1/6,2 randomizer
< 1760484370 299038 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760484983 332701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166081&oldid=166080 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+122) 10added (x,2) to some and changed 2/5,1;2/5,2;1/5,3
> 1760485699 236698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166082&oldid=166081 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+57) 10more of the last and changed 3/5,1;2/5,2 and 4/5,1;1/5,2
> 1760485841 761795 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166083&oldid=166082 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-70) 10changed 3/5,1;1/5,2;1/5,3
> 1760485896 98468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166084&oldid=166083 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+0) 10got something wrong
> 1760486882 692408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166085&oldid=166084 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+254) 10added more (x,2)
< 1760487064 298353 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760487494 805849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166086&oldid=166085 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+69) 10added a randomizer
< 1760488541 800414 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760488588 763724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166087&oldid=166086 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+360) 10added more randomizers
< 1760488722 269632 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1760490346 118099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Astronomer 5*  10New user account
> 1760490470 629279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166088&oldid=166038 5* 03Astronomer 5* (+48) 10/* Introductions */
> 1760492250 61379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166089&oldid=166087 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-2) 10changed 5/6,1;1/6,2
< 1760496933 12763 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have any comment relating to:  https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/scorpion/refs/heads/trunk/charset/tron/Composite
> 1760500403 331973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Autism (Esolang)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166090&oldid=166005 5* 03Randesoreader 5* (+94) 10
< 1760501661 481834 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1760501880 290974 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1760506242 741566 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760507654 947960 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760508273 944495 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760508817 353743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zapcircuit 5*  10New user account
< 1760509527 653652 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760516454 229172 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760519216 621927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Heav esolang g(ood)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166091&oldid=109499 5* 03JIT 5* (+9) 10
< 1760520306 929786 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :do we still have a bot we use for @tell functionality here? I forget
< 1760520343 283241 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :but saw a link to https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3764117 and thought it might be relevant to ais523 considering the pirating rust references post
< 1760520796 486125 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760522305 955618 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like in practice (at least where ais523 is concerned) people just say things and expect them to get read from the logs.
< 1760522326 361691 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I see lambdabot's still here, and if I recall correctly, it could also pass on messages.
< 1760522332 40963 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :> "hello?"
< 1760522333 301054 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "hello?"
< 1760523293 919141 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1760523587 477078 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: fair
< 1760524954 381675 :V!~v@ircpuzzles/2022/april/winner/V QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760525525 160856 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SpecCrescent 5*  10New user account
> 1760526800 136434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166092&oldid=166088 5* 03SpecCrescent 5* (+303) 10
> 1760526855 218442 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166093&oldid=166092 5* 03SpecCrescent 5* (+34) 10
> 1760526861 803673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SpecCrescent14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166094 5* 03SpecCrescent 5* (+173) 10Created page with "This page contains all of my esolang projects as well as an explanation for my madness.  TODO:  Brainfuck * Brainfuck    Explanation of operations: TODO  [[Category: Users]]"
> 1760527307 325808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166095&oldid=166093 5* 03SpecCrescent 5* (+7) 10
< 1760527658 768613 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760527917 457779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166096&oldid=166095 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+168) 10/* Introductions */
< 1760528138 534802 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760528202 638467 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760528218 377214 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760528795 929329 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760528999 164234 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760533611 354577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166097&oldid=165120 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+81) 10
> 1760533773 287221 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166098&oldid=166058 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+37) 10
> 1760534697 368639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Basic Stack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166099&oldid=166098 5* 03Nguyendinhtung2014 5* (+82) 10add cat program + some arrangement on examples
< 1760534918 280745 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760535113 292514 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760535142 591174 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1760535142 705980 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1760535142 768181 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1760535143 159983 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1760535143 368719 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 NICK :simcop2387
< 1760535167 527752 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760535174 438081 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760535185 186917 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1760535185 255875 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1760535285 139057 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760535370 630144 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760535408 888902 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760535428 354427 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1760535577 510191 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1760536182 737493 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1760536232 511780 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1760537375 118211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: got fun?
< 1760537375 765298 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: my hon. and learned friend the minister for the work he is doing to the people, the government of this country all provide challenge and share learning, the university of fnord the university employs 4,800, it still falls fractionally as a share of the economy,
< 1760537441 298843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`"
< 1760537445 356218 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :1/1:406)  99% OF USES OF STRDUP ARE ILLEGAL! \ 295) [on Sgeo's karaoke]  That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire.
< 1760537982 355796 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "university of fnord"! I wonder if that's George Fox, Brigham Young, or Liberty.
< 1760537984 760965 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lots of good ministerial position suggestions. At least "the minister for the work he is doing" is quite flexible in terms of potential responsibilities.
< 1760538124 910901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? nitia
< 1760538129 578058 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
< 1760538157 470854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I'm worried about them "doing work *to* the people" though
< 1760538259 491517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a bit too close to reality tbh)
< 1760538348 317535 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :>> he runs an organisation that is just as complex as PCOMMA if not more so than PCOMMA the university of bath; the university employs 4,800 people against the royal uniteds 3,015 PDOT
< 1760538366 646080 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Looks like ukparl training set preprocessing did not handle semicolons correctly.
< 1760538384 810933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: bath?
< 1760538385 353196 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: i, for one, and i will do that, of course that is the governments policy, completely incoherent, self-defeating. we believe the bbc that a joint committee of the heads of the devolved government, and that
< 1760538388 290831 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :So in this case fnord was "bath;". If it had been just "bath", it wouldn't have gotten fnorded.
< 1760538411 293731 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There are 20 references to "the university of bath" without a glued-in semicolon.)
< 1760538421 791066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I may or may not have heard of the city before. It's clear from context that it was a proper name :) )
< 1760538444 121202 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been to Bath... twice, I think.
< 1760538466 396634 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a Roman bath in Bath.
< 1760538482 711658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that why it's called that?
< 1760538515 344832 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Or a /thermae/, if you're feeling fancy.)
< 1760538529 634028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a while I lived in close proximity to a "Lange Straße" (long street) and I believe a "Kurzer Weg" (short path).
< 1760538532 29054 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe it is named after that, yes.
< 1760538543 911342 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I know people are bad at naming things.
< 1760538552 170876 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other more famous examples include New York
< 1760538651 106765 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a US town with three streets in a sort of a F-shaped pattern, which are named This Street, That Street, and The Other Street. But I think they've been trying to be intentionally funny.
< 1760538670 823240 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, my bad, it's actually in Canada.
< 1760538692 39368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :America ;)
< 1760538758 663860 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Street sign theft is a big problem for locations with (intentionally or unintentionally) funny names, I believe.
< 1760538838 248757 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, *that's* how "fnord" gets into the training set. Makes a lot of sense.
< 1760538900 405164 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's actually called "UNK" during the training, one of the fixed-value tokens (alongside punctuation), fungot just outputs it as "fnord".
< 1760538900 986198 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: to which i replied, i have the transcript, no not within government, that achieved the equal age of consent,
< 1760538910 30654 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I grew up in Eugene, Oregon, a fairly infamous hippie destination. The signs for High Street were stolen so often that the city set up a way for folks to purchase their own High Street signs legally from the official supplier.
< 1760538959 208727 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can in fact see the fnord in the code: https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98#L157
< 1760538959 492150 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the point of the hon. and learned friend the minister for, certainly, the uk does. also, the government are
< 1760538966 248636 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: regarding funding for the university of fnord, i expect the government to
< 1760538966 430759 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: was the hon. member, in making that this is
< 1760538982 776611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style
< 1760538982 844545 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld elon enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl* youtube
< 1760538996 341634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style enron
< 1760538996 391492 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
< 1760539001 737173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: is this any good, I forgot
< 1760539002 272265 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: is that the original to the other. weighted and scores of the resolutions of sole on 04/ 10 to 4 and people want the market for the firms that davis has said repeatedly he is confident of the commission
< 1760539009 828815 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The other day I saw a man taking a photo of the Piccadilly line "next departures" sign, which had "Cockfosters" on it repeated three times (and nothing else), because that's where most eastbound Piccadilly Line trains go. But it's a digital sign, so trying to steal it would be self-defeating.
< 1760539026 77847 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ukparl
< 1760539026 134920 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ukparl (UK Parliament debates from brexit referendum to late 2018)
< 1760539040 595886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(looks too incoherent)
< 1760539076 213837 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sadly several of the styles aren't very good. There's a certain sweet spot that needs to be hit in the choice of parameters, and I didn't do a lot of work for most of them.
< 1760539090 658348 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC, europarl was generally better than ukparl (no political opinion implied here).
< 1760539103 896819 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I like ct, but it *is* super-repetitive.
< 1760539108 657279 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style ct
< 1760539108 685124 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
< 1760539125 208113 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Who would win if Crono fought Marle?
< 1760539125 437745 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving! tomorrow. melchior, who opposed the queen's plans, has secret rooms in enhasa and kajar? the queen's aide, dalton! leave her alone! when magus left, then enter, sir!
< 1760539170 257825 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Is the Mammon machine safe to use, or should we switch to renewable energy ASAP?
< 1760539170 418405 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: these unique items make us invincible! helloooo there! this must be the invention. hope it still leaves you hungry! here you are the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
< 1760539200 65923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: Do we take the bucket?
< 1760539200 207006 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: frog will do. hunting bad... but kino not like... good morning, crono! your cat's running away because you haven't been feeding it!
< 1760539242 68005 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What a lucky selection of three independent lines.
< 1760539335 109126 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :^style europarl
< 1760539335 158912 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
< 1760539384 975722 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: What do you think about democracy in general? 
< 1760539385 448987 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: protocols have to be protected by guarantees of consumer goods, etcetera will eventually follow. furthermore, the planned enlargement of the community.
< 1760542816 195471 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760543905 616096 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760547183 839219 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760548391 987595 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760548758 564954 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760550357 322220 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 JOIN #esolangs avih :avih
< 1760553189 727435 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"ukparl training set preprocessing did not handle semicolons correctly" => maybe the BBC doesn't only not understand letters with things on top of them but also doesn't understand commas with things on top of them
< 1760553371 556645 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"But it's a digital sign, so trying to steal it would be self-defeating." => Amsterdam has e-ink displays showing departures in some bus stops, I think you could steal those and they'd keep their image
< 1760556129 366328 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1760556129 393353 :op_4!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1760556139 557302 :ManDeJan_!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
> 1760556183 709008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166100&oldid=166069 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-28) 10Blanked the page
> 1760556350 363392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166101&oldid=164784 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+515) 10/* Syzygy */ new section
< 1760556538 672308 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1760556539 507414 :ManDeJan_!3da94070ba@user/mandejan NICK :ManDeJan
< 1760556639 475285 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cdf:654a:2a7f:261 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760557017 925190 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1760557091 843777 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
> 1760557446 108253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Syzygy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166102&oldid=166067 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-10012) 10Redirected page to [[Syzygy]]
< 1760557459 510394 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760557463 651620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166103&oldid=166100 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+10032) 10
< 1760558326 449298 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760558573 55994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ractangle/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166104&oldid=164905 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-526) 10/* Stuff */
< 1760558897 989086 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760559817 892702 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760560812 70192 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760561612 299043 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.63.32.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1760561838 78478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166105&oldid=166103 5* 03Corbin 5* (-81) 10Cleaned up categories. See Talk page, please.
> 1760562107 982374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Syzygy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166106 5* 03Corbin 5* (+856) 10Hi folks! Thanks for your hard work.
< 1760562993 439778 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1760563359 750 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760563588 453578 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1760564295 25963 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166107 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+1911) 10Created page with "{{stub}}  '''Joy''' is a [[Concatenative_language|concantaive programming language]], created by [https://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Manfred%20von%20Thun Manfred von Thun]. It supports [[Pointfree_programming|function-level programming]] by using a linked list as a stack 
> 1760564549 618488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166108&oldid=166107 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+30) 10
> 1760565400 157183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166109&oldid=166108 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+51) 10
> 1760565456 713014 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166110&oldid=166109 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+0) 10Sorry
< 1760565872 575316 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760565872 575646 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760565872 874535 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs * :melvar
< 1760566206 522366 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1760566428 884153 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760566428 951946 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760566462 269838 :ProofTechnique_!sid79547@id-79547.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs * :ptech
< 1760566492 830512 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760566582 835631 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760566764 456011 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1760566962 423262 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1760567062 81619 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760567084 928139 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
< 1760570212 61209 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760570695 899883 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760570873 63674 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1760571924 746313 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166111&oldid=165093 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+3) 10fixed endian conflation
< 1760574170 719763 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1760576755 327732 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760576935 887097 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1760579729 547134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:Syzygy10]]": redirect left over after a page created in the wrong namespace was renamed to the correct namespace
> 1760579765 817252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02Esolang:Syzygy10]] to [[Syzygy]]: history merge to Syzygy
> 1760579765 842175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Syzygy10]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Esolang:Syzygy]]"
> 1760579786 451495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 restore10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10undeleted "[[02Syzygy10]]": part two of history merge
> 1760579812 943876 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166113&oldid=166112 5* 03Ais523 5* (+9931) 10set top revision after history merge
> 1760579862 814434 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166114&oldid=166101 5* 03Ais523 5* (+246) 10/* Esolangs forums? */ it didn't work last time we tried it
< 1760580133 876121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760580233 439874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think that Basic Stack is TC by using the register and top of stack as two counters
< 1760580309 618738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the TC proof on the page is wrong I think, it's expecting "push reg" to push the reg-th stack element from the bottom (using it like a pick instruction which would be an easy way to get around the usual Turing-completeness issues for stack-based languages), but it actually pushes the register itself
< 1760580413 567783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : Oh, I don't have permissions to remove the redirect in the main namespace. I guess that I will *not* be able to fix that, sorry. ← an incorrect move always needs admin help to fix if anything happens to the resulting redirect (including being edited)
< 1760580448 828788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is possibly a design flaw of MediaWiki – I know I have historically spent a lot of time fixing broken moves both on Esolang, and on Wikipedia when I was an admin there
< 1760580526 469879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : do we still have a bot we use for @tell functionality here? I forget ← I usually try to read the entire logs, although I probably miss lines occasionally
< 1760580546 593851 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :conversation in #esolangs is often asynchronous nowadays, with people conversing through the logs
< 1760580653 799642 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : But I see lambdabot's still here, and if I recall correctly, it could also pass on messages. ← I wonder whether libera has memoserv? that got used on Freenode on occasion
< 1760580680 160442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[Whois] MemoServ is MemoServ@services.libera.chat (Memo Services)
< 1760580691 330849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine MemoServ messages may be easy to miss if you aren't expecting them, though
< 1760580813 8903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : You can in fact see the fnord in the code: https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98#L157 ← that anchor annoys me, befunge really wants two-dimensional anchors, it isn't designed for one-dimensional anchors unless you program specifically to make it work
< 1760580813 948315 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i should like to thank the rapporteur on her diligence and her persistence during the many debates that have taken place in committee; that is why i regard this particular proposal but we will not neglect the interest of food safety, must be respected in any coordination process. it is not sufficient for the president of the republic of armenia, azerbaijan and georgia.
< 1760581841 966417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: No worries. Thanks for your patience with us.
> 1760582458 650405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interbflang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166115 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+2191) 10Created article.
> 1760582577 319209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheBigH14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166116&oldid=165363 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+170) 10Added interbflang.
< 1760583217 932601 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Burroughs Algol 60 has an "IMP" relational operator (for implies). 
< 1760583266 80888 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice. It's not common; the only language that comes to mind for me is Nix.
< 1760583373 129585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86alikes have ANDN which is the opposite of an implies
< 1760583398 5709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the argument order is very confusing: x ANDN y is "not x and y" which is the opposite of what you'd expect from the name
< 1760583406 375740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, (not x) and y
< 1760583789 927815 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Was looking at https://bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/LargeSystems/B5000_5500_5700/5000-21001-D_An_Introduction_to_Algol_60_for_the_B5000_Information_Processing_System_196112.pdf and now watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NTEc8Ag-I before I go back to reading it. It's starting to strike me how Algol influenced C and some BASIC dialects (returning values by assigning to the function's name)
< 1760585258 443941 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Algol 60 switch statements are weird. IIUC they're targets for GO TO statements
< 1760585451 55601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it benefits practical languages to have a return variable (i.e. something you can assign to in order to set the return value, possibly multiple times in the function/procedure/subroutine), *but* that its use should be optional and there should be return statements too as shorthand
< 1760585480 143761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I commonly end up having to create return variables, so it would be nice to have a convention for them, but you don't always need one
< 1760585678 452295 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, which CPUs were designed with specific languages in mind? Burroughs mainframes for ALGOL, Lisp machines for Lisp, basically everything today for C
< 1760586755 159523 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo__: no, that's backwards. C was designed for the existing and near future CPUs, not the CPUs for C.
< 1760586789 985041 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I kind of have the impression that no CPU design would be made today that isn't a good fit for C
< 1760586842 201476 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but that's not because of C, it's to be able to run the programs that were designed to run on existing CPUs. I don't think C is relevant there.
< 1760586906 559347 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eg. the CPUs have to support a flat memory space addressible in bytes, because existing programs assume a flat memory and that is often baked so much into programs that it would be hard to chane
< 1760587806 724306 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I think the concept of different types of memory (rather than a flat address space) is a useful one and can help make programs more secure and easier to reason about
< 1760587812 445242 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but existing segmented architectures might not fit it will
< 1760587864 595627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I realised recently that it makes sense to have indexable and non-indexable allocations (in non-indexable allocations the only pointer arithmetic allowed is field projections), with each array in its own indexable allocation
< 1760587910 665905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if you don't do that, then most existing memory-safety retrofitters don't work properly because they don't prevent a buffer overflow that stays within the allocation and hits something that's stored in the same structure as the buffer
< 1760587939 201857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I suppose that in indexable allocations, pointer arithmetic should be limited to offsetting a multiple of the element size, plus field projections)
< 1760588051 946512 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also realised recently that a) the main technical problem in writing an efficient memory allocator nowadays is deallocating memory on a different thread it was allocated on, b) programs usually don't need to actually do that
< 1760588126 565239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it would make sense to enforce that statically (in Rust you can do that by using a custom allocator that isn't Send) and that effectively gives you a different address space for each thread (they can read and write each other's spaces, but not allocate and deallocate)
< 1760588602 933059 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC also has "IMP" relational operator and the "return variable"
< 1760589156 476207 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like I've seen IMP on some BASICs, but I think only some BASICs have functions with return variables like that
< 1760589170 923973 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a lot of variety in BASICs
< 1760589257 540958 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and BASICs often have features or non-features that seem really weird to me
< 1760589322 662872 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :QBasic has both IMP and functions that return values by setting the name
< 1760589364 194489 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, different versions of BASIC are different, but I specifically mean Microsoft BASIC (although I think most of the implementations at one time were from Microsoft?)
< 1760589452 987935 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of the implementations on microcomputers were from Microsoft. Mainframes and minicomputers had their own
< 1760589487 360351 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Programming_languages_with_unusual_features#BASIC but other things that you think are remarkable might also be mentioned (and/or the existing explanation changed)
< 1760589505 389480 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I think "Microsoft BASIC" is itself ambiguous. There's the version on early microcomputers, then QBasic and QuickBASIC are a lot more full featured
< 1760589542 882989 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, I think you are correct
< 1760589680 917345 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Was going to post about ALGOL 60 but I don't fully understand its switch statement yet.
< 1760589736 430976 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a construct that's common to languages older than a certain point and uncommon to languages after that point, that I think counts as unusual to modern eyes: Taking an integer and doing something based on a list in that statement
< 1760589786 265590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo__: I think languages just became higher-level over time – there's an instruction that's very much like that in both JVM bytecode and LLVM IR
< 1760589861 515525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's still commonly used as something to compile into, it's probably important for performance that an instruction like that exists – it's just too low-level to be ergonomic to use directly
< 1760590565 232150 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are often lower-level stuff other than assembly language that I will want to use but C does not do it. People have tried to make better programming languages than C but often make it worse in many ways.
< 1760592931 417400 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Algol 60 uses "ENTIER" for what modern languages call "floor"
< 1760593138 469849 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :This book has a .. curious statement, trying to figure out if it's correct
< 1760593254 106540 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, it is. Just unusually written
< 1760593296 798401 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"it is useful to be aware of the relationship LOG_10 (X) = LOG_10(e) x LN (X)
< 1760593319 838762 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm more used to change of base being written as log_10(x) = ln(x) / ln(10)
< 1760594276 173617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :divisions are slow
< 1760594291 387638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think even floating-point divisions are slow
< 1760594296 6419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even on modern hardware
< 1760594321 22591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a performance-minded programmer of the day would have preferred a formula that used multiplication to one that used a division
< 1760594368 442961 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it isn't quite correct to constant-fold ln(x) / ln(10) into ln(x) × (1 / ln(10)) – modern compilers will do that with fast-math-like optimisations but not if compiling accurately)
< 1760594400 281789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so if you want the better performance you have to write the 1/ln(10) manually, which is log_10(e))
< 1760594912 856594 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wasn't previously aware that the reciprocal switches base and argument like that, although I think it makes sense with change of base
< 1760594960 107548 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :log_10(e) = ln(e)/ln(10) = 1/ln(10)
< 1760595197 321435 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting
< 1760595206 513135 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1760595208 968209 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Client Quit
< 1760595218 633969 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
< 1760596035 712240 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760596126 996372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760596136 894587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760596145 710352 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760596593 937417 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Floating division is 40 cycles on MMIX, which is faster than integer division but slower than other operations with floating point numbers (other than square root, which is also slow).
< 1760597841 492116 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760597847 913058 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760598970 484715 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760601809 684778 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1760603416 181723 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :TIL, MMIX has cycle counts?
< 1760604273 56381 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, there's a page for it in the MMIX document. (On a physical architecture, this would be much longer.)
< 1760605411 743883 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ironically modern processors don't have cycle counts in the traditional sense, due to all the out-of-order stuff going on
< 1760605435 263042 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the closest you can get is a minimum latency, but if you try to use it like a traditional cycle count you'll get completely the wrong result
> 1760608100 830614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sigq14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166117&oldid=165586 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+60) 10
< 1760608218 339267 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760610750 654686 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :HI *
> 1760610941 17525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:NoWhy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166118&oldid=165938 5* 03NoWhy 5* (+37) 10link to personal drafts
< 1760611812 493115 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The MMIX document already knows about pipelining: “we must remember that the actual running time might be quite sensitive to the ordering of instructions. For example, integer division might cost only one cycle if we can find 60 other things to do between the time we issue the command and the time we need the result …”
< 1760611893 490300 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the meta-simulator can simulate “… such things as caches, virtual address translation, pipelining and simultaneous instruction issue, branch prediction, etc.” But not OOO execution.
< 1760612143 600757 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :But OOO also causes problems, including security problems, and we might get rid of it eventually. I think GPU architectures still don't bother with it.
< 1760612355 548774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's unlikely to be dropped in CPUs any time soon – the last serious attempt to get rid of it almost destroyed Intel
< 1760612394 808112 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and it isn't nearly as bad as speculative execution when it comes to security issues)
< 1760612445 748414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :today's compilers wouldn't work very well without OOO and yet they're pretty entrenched, so no big CPU manufacturer is likely to take a risk on trying to change their CPUs in a way that would invalidate all the existing compiler technology
< 1760612586 407988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other big advantage of OOO is that it allows commands to take variable lengths of time to run without losing most of the optimisation opportunity from pipelining them correctly
< 1760612593 121972 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"the last serious attempt to get rid of [out of order execution] almost destroyed Intel" => do you mean the I64 architecture or the low powered x86 cpus with the simpler pipeline?
< 1760612614 89438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: i64 – Pentium IV was earlier and Intel mostly survived it
< 1760612680 318436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OOO seems unavoidable for systems that have hardware-managed caches to run at top speed – you'd have to explicitly do the cache management in software without it
< 1760612704 738592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which GPU programs do actually do, but for CPU programs you'd have to change all the existing source, not just the compilers
< 1760612794 931693 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I mean Intel Atom, not pentium 4
< 1760612828 511819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I'm not too familiar with the intentionally low-powered Intel processors
< 1760612843 461506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I vaguely remember that later versions of the Atom added it back?
< 1760612848 915259 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1760612868 178783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in which case the attempt can be said to have failed
< 1760613437 916878 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder, perhaps in a CPU architecture unlike x86, where you have lots of registers and so most instructions don't read or write the main memory with the cache hierarchy so there are separate memory read/write instructions, could you have something like x87 where you can split memory reads explicitly to two instructions, one that initiates the memory read and one that waits for it to complete and gives 
< 1760613443 927237 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you access to the value read? then you could perhaps have no out of order execution other than that and maybe some similarly split slow multiplication/division/square root instructions
< 1760613608 249986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I discussed a CPU design like that in here a while ago (probably years ago now)
< 1760613621 408270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the idea is that instructions state a time by which the result is needed
< 1760613652 598725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and this is used to automatically route the result to the correct instruction, because you say "this result is the input is to the 10th-next instruction" or the like)
< 1760613710 489951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's most important for jumps because you can use it to avoid speculative execution (potentially entirely, if the delayed-goto happens early enough)
< 1760613751 728274 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1760613797 949338 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps you can even have small register arrays that are larger than 64 bytes but you can only use piecewise or rotate, so that you don't have to access memory that often
< 1760613828 801037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think something like that is valuable for spills
< 1760613843 962246 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially in recursive code
< 1760613865 461331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(non-recursive code can spill into statics, and IIRC were even commonly compiled that way a long time ago)
< 1760614084 482582 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean it could be useful even in cases where they don't spill, just have a fixed size. Today on x86 you just rely on the well working L1 cache for that.
< 1760614121 840877 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with indexed memory access which almost all instructions can do with one operand
< 1760614178 629026 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AMD Zen 2 and Zen 4 (but not Zen 3) are able to access spill slots as though they were registers (same performance characteristics), which is interesting
< 1760614202 168291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and seems like the same sort of thing in reverse (possibly a means of repurposing syntax that compilers already generate)
< 1760614393 657632 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1760614500 714076 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also thinking of 6502 which has zero page memory access as sort of a replacement for registers, even though memory accesses all take the same amount of time regardless of the address, but the zero page can still save a cycle or two of fetching the instruction.
< 1760614544 933526 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think in a modern architecture you don't want that zero page to be modifiable by normal memory access instructions
< 1760614567 401424 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760614617 283272 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1760614620 319603 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760614699 510659 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760614736 888669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the 6502 is often used with very constrained memory
< 1760614760 59550 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the zero page might be a significant proportion of the memory you have, so you might want to be able to put normal variables there in addition to registers
< 1760614773 743819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(especially as 256 registers is more than most programs will need)
< 1760614835 78388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was very common to store data in static addresses in the range that hardware uses for the stack, and just try to keep the stack usage low enough that the data wouldn't be overwritten
< 1760615234 105956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' thursday
< 1760615236 737159 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :352)  as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 821)  no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
> 1760615785 626298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Zapcircuit 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Subscratch handdrawn.png10]]"
< 1760616662 836685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so apparently a "tiny" model has several millions of parameters
< 1760616764 194234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(cf. https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.04871 which is retro in another fun way: They found that if they go above 2 layers (so 1 hidden layer) they suffer from overfitting.)
< 1760617429 646234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But really "tiny* should be reserved for models that are way closer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caenorhabditis_elegans in size (it features a "brain" made of 302 neurons)
< 1760617794 177151 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The model I'm using for esolangs is gemma-2.0-2b-it-sfp, which has 2 billion parameters, and I thought that too is considered "relatively small". It was the smallest Gemma 2 variant they had.
< 1760617797 435881 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though looks like since then they've released Gemma 3, which comes in 270M/1B/4B/12B/27B size variants.
< 1760617852 71905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760617925 45470 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also got a longer context window (32k for 270M/1B sizes, 128k for 4B/12B/27B sizes, compared to 8k for Gemma 2), so I could fit more wiki text in (and make it even slower).
< 1760617947 988816 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Really, though, if I wanted it to produce actually useful wiki-derived responses, it's the retrieval part that needs more work.)
> 1760618186 249773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166120 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+12709) 10Created page with "'''subscratch''' is an [[OISC]] language invented by User:Zapcircuit. its main purpose is for codegolfing games in [[scratch]]. its most interesting feature is its scratch implementation, which uses very few scratch blocks.  ==implementation==  to the right is an
> 1760618256 840217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166121&oldid=166120 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+4) 10
> 1760618497 475478 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166122&oldid=166121 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+8) 10/* execution */
> 1760618561 544657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166123&oldid=166122 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+1) 10/* execution */
> 1760619187 454781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166124&oldid=166123 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+20) 10/* i/o */
> 1760619412 532009 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Sadran 5*  10New user account
> 1760619416 907895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166125&oldid=165996 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+17) 10/* S */
< 1760619708 434547 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760619945 570968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166126&oldid=166124 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+228) 10
> 1760620051 510227 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166127&oldid=166126 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+9) 10
> 1760620471 306574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166128&oldid=166127 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (+64) 10/* i/o */
> 1760620644 410523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Subscratch14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166129&oldid=166128 5* 03Zapcircuit 5* (-1) 10/* i/o */
< 1760621370 597157 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1760622105 936594 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: Right. On a GPU (at least the 2000s-era ones I know well) instructions can't really be reordered because they're being executed in parallel on multiple data. Instead the GPU has a bitmask which indicates the result of the most recent comparison, and that mask is used to disable execution for some of the parallel lanes whenever a comparison fails.
< 1760622217 201189 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The "speed" is wholly from parallelism; in my mind a GPU only goes at maybe 300-350 MHz of clock, maybe 1/10 of the main CPU's clock, and also there's a 30% or so slowdown just from the overhead of transferring data over PCI/AGP/etc. This means you'd better have a batch of at least 10 items *and* a non-trivial workload before the GPU is worth it.
< 1760622253 668174 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Highly likely that you know all this. But maybe some lurker does not.)
< 1760623946 799127 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760627120 27068 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1760627286 645894 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760627539 33011 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760627968 373613 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perhaps more relevantly to text, a “tiny stories” model has ~30M parameters: https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.07759v2
< 1760628087 187804 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Though a tiny model for esolangs wouldn't have a vocabulary considered suitable for bedtime stories.)
> 1760628212 139156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166130&oldid=166113 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2) 10ordering image under infobox and moving table of contents to after the overview
> 1760628282 123233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Syzygy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166131&oldid=166130 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-84) 10nvm doesn't work like that. also fixing header levels
< 1760628312 551398 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760628459 697892 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I prefer to say that GPUs aren't fast, it's the von Neumann chips that are plodding along
< 1760628503 768421 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: Yeah! Some days I think that the computer is actually the memory controller, and the CPU is just a peripheral ALU.
< 1760628506 341709 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Though even GPUs are bottlenecked by memory these days. Still hoping for CIM to become usable. They're pretty esoteric too, since everything has to be done using bitslicing.
< 1760628542 859013 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A GPU is just another peripheral on a bus. Like the CPU, it's slower than memory, and like the CPU, it will ask for lots of DMA. That's what the computer does, really: DMA all day.
> 1760628568 962298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:1 Bit, a quarter byte14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166132&oldid=165413 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+250) 10
< 1760628799 798893 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760628801 511867 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(CIM = Compute-in-memory, which adds a few extra word lines to a DRAM circuit to do elementary logic operations across a row, which typically has 64K bits or more.)
< 1760629605 204672 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CIM sounds nice, but I'm not sure how it would get rolled out to consumers. I suppose that first the memory controller would support it, then the CPUs in the next generation would use it?
< 1760630018 408862 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :They're still working on throughput, AFAIK; DRAM is made in the DRAM factory, not the logic factory, and they're not used to making chips with fast clock rates.
< 1760630057 132002 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If it gets fast enough, presumably OpenAI could be counted on to buy out the first year of production.
> 1760630382 836593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166133&oldid=161119 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-62) 10
> 1760630407 679752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166134&oldid=166133 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+8) 10
> 1760630420 456474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166135&oldid=166134 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-8) 10
> 1760630448 305722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166136&oldid=166135 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+27) 10
> 1760630494 859730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166137&oldid=166136 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+35) 10revert
< 1760631917 340584 :JGardner!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl NICK :jgardner
< 1760635215 838212 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1760636638 79337 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760637455 747707 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760638925 546121 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760638943 557576 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1760641990 421748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166138&oldid=146912 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-62) 10/* Commands */
> 1760642025 874568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166139&oldid=166138 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Syntax */
> 1760642455 299129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166140&oldid=166139 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-41) 10/* Syntax */
< 1760643166 736197 :sorear_!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs sorear :sorear
< 1760643418 934855 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1760643420 262575 :sorear_!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com NICK :sorear
> 1760644643 680845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166141&oldid=166140 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-56) 10/* Truth-machine */
> 1760645106 966065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166142&oldid=166141 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-47) 10/* Cat program */
> 1760645425 645215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166143&oldid=166142 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-30) 10/* Syntax */
> 1760645514 442743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166144&oldid=166143 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+157) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1760645665 841037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166145&oldid=166144 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Interpreter */
> 1760645783 383175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:8ial14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166146 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+295) 10Created page with "ok this time Kaveh you don't need to apoligise because of the fact your interpriter as of 16th of October has outdated specifactaions~~~"
> 1760645868 137372 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166147&oldid=166145 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+73) 10
> 1760646216 23485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EZ132/std1ib.h14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166148 5* 03EZ132 5* (+3224) 10Created page with "'''std1ib.h''' is the header file that defines [[User:EZ132/Not C++|Not C++]]. 
 #include  #include  #include  #include  #include  #include   // delimiters & blocks #define def #define def
> 1760646245 461802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EZ132/Not C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166149 5* 03EZ132 5* (+3241) 10Created page with "'''Not C++''' (name provisional) is a programming language that is not [[C++]]. It can be compiled trivially into C++. ==Design & History== Not C++ is essentially C++ modified with a header file currently referred to as std1ib.h. This header consis
< 1760647022 351236 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Many languages have ternary. Algol-68 has abbreviated if elif else chains:
< 1760647023 458934 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :INT p = (c="a"|1|:c="h"|2|:c="q"|3|4)
< 1760647050 682564 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm I guess ternary can be used similarly anyway depending on precedence
< 1760647069 704208 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
< 1760647831 510754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760647896 915526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: hi! I haven't Internet-seen you in ages
< 1760648643 396785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : (CIM = Compute-in-memory, which adds a few extra word lines to a DRAM circuit to do elementary logic operations across a row, which typically has 64K bits or more.) ← now I'm imagining a very big embarrassingly-parallel vector calculation running across DRAM refresh cycles
< 1760648674 593219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the simplest version of this would be a mass zero in which you can tell the memory controller "please zero this block of memory for me" – that would probably be useful even on its own
< 1760648764 272782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still remember the discussions about background zeroing of non-allocated memory using, effectively, the kernel idle process (Linux doesn't do it because of cache pollution, although there have been discussions about doing it using nontemporal writes)
< 1760648780 733422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but just having the memory do it effectively instantly would bypass all those issues
< 1760648838 292835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : korvo: I prefer to say that GPUs aren't fast, it's the von Neumann chips that are plodding along ← it makes more sense to think of speed in terms of latency and throughput rather than as a single figure: GPUs have massive throughput but aren't very good at latency
< 1760649251 431093 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought of computer design in many ways, and I  also thought that it should avoid out of order execution, in the ways that is mentioned (and also to possibly make it simpler by not implementing out of order execution; the compiler can (hopefully) set up the order properly). I did not consider CIM but it also has some uses
< 1760649390 89586 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 JOIN #esolangs salpynx :realname
< 1760649488 737315 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IMO the Basic Stack TC proof is basically correct. int-e already pointed out the problems with it: 1) misses the data string setup (trivial to do with `push 1`, and obviously required for the rest to work, use `goto 2` for the loop) 2) Technically is using CT not BCT. The table is simple-translation of CT into BCT into Basic Stack, 3) the `istop;stop` is redundant on the 1x commands, but doesn't break anything. Other than that, it seems a valid idea. I 
< 1760649489 81759 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :had a play with the interpreter, and with an initial data string, it runs BCT examples with deletion replaced with a moving pointer, so functionally equivalent. It feels like it was designed for this.
< 1760649525 358034 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The BCT subtlety is a good observation. I worry I may have this mistake in the past. At first I couldn't see why it might be useful, but it looks like the effect is running one set of productions once, then looping on the offset productions, which could be useful for some clever run-once setup code.
< 1760649526 537227 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: could you just ask the GPU to do zeroing? or maybe CPUs could add background zeroing logic at the L3 cache?
< 1760649587 152758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: I don't think it correctly implements a queue, the "push reg" command is intended to dequeue a queue but it pushes the address of the element it's dequeuing (with no way to dereference it), not the element itself
< 1760649629 874535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it increments `reg`
< 1760649639 692289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm not sure what the situation with GPUs accessing CPU memory is like at the moment – it may vary a lot based on the motherboard (I know that some computers make it efficient but most don't)
< 1760649640 515001 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which points to the start of the queue on the stack
< 1760649651 792880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, reg is a pointer to the start of the queue on the stack, but the language has no way to read through the pointer
< 1760649690 414901 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: condr does that
< 1760649691 251950 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :knowing where the front of a queue is is not enough to be able to dequeue and branch on the dequeued element, you need to be able to actually read the element in question
< 1760649719 538555 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a `push 1` `push 0`  which works for the CT emulation 
< 1760649721 225708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah, you're right – that was the bit I was missing
< 1760649736 446790 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like that instruction was added specifically to make it non-bignum TC?
< 1760649835 975268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, it makes the stack "transparent" as the top of the page puts it
< 1760649877 554814 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I wasn't sure what bit you were missing, but sounds like int-e revealed it :) 
< 1760649911 428562 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1760649941 722364 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: your comments made me think that "Binary Encoded Cyclic Tag" _is_ a useful thing if 2 symbol encoding is the constraint. That makes something like 101001 valid BCT but a syntax error in "Binary Encoded Cyclic Tag".
< 1760649962 386761 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Failing on e.g. 101001 might be a common gotcha for BCT interpreters (if anything about BCT interpreters can ever be called 'common'). Something to test, like Deadfish 256 handling.
< 1760650005 120601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: The thing is that the first 0 in a program synchronizes everything so the feature is of very limited use.
< 1760650030 84799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :salpynx: it's more of a wart ;)
< 1760650040 184142 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The setup / init code possibility is interesting
< 1760650058 342216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike the way that bitwise cyclic tag became the default, a much better option is "cyclic tag and invent your own syntax for it"
< 1760650067 670009 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A simple example shows this kind of behaviour : BCT: 101001 = 10 10 0 (11 0 10 0)* , in CT:  0 0; (1; 0;)*     (apologies for ad-hoc mixed notation, hopefully it's esotericly clear enough)
< 1760650070 576718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for TCness proofs, at least)
< 1760650163 693461 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the wiki page contributes to that problem, BCT is explained in more detail, and has clearer examples. I've used that, and am probably guilty of defaulting to BCT numerous times in the past
< 1760650173 305409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cyclic tag effectively having three symbols is awkward sometimes, but BCT doesn't really fix that problem
< 1760650202 832493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this was the major motivation behind inventing https://esolangs.org/wiki/Echo_Tag https://esolangs.org/wiki/Grill_Tag, which each genuinely can be expressed using two symbols)
< 1760650209 126423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Echo Tag and Grill Tag
< 1760650242 458913 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760650349 913727 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ; in CT is like a newline, if you think of the code as a finite list of 2 symbol productions, and deletion occurs by default as part of the process 
< 1760650580 682256 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, Echo Tag is categorized as 'unimplemented'. That might be a fun one to do. 
< 1760650593 869258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when talking to people who don't know how cyclic tag works already, I usually explain it as a program formed of "pop the top element, then push this string if the popped element wasn't 0"
< 1760650624 182181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Echo Tag's a bit weird because it's been manually compiled into a lot but I'm not sure that there's an automated compiler yet
< 1760650630 291698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, manually compiled from a lot
< 1760650658 541424 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Has it been used in a TC proof for something else?
< 1760650723 945674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1760650738 980623 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :base 10 Addition Automaton, at least
< 1760650744 575277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Addition_Automaton
< 1760650861 455566 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a totally new one to me, I'd a least recognised the names of the other * Tags
< 1760650972 543036 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the numeric output is visually interesting, you can see the structure in the digits. nice.
< 1760650993 646977 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :numeric tartan
< 1760650997 493257 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way I think about it is that almost all TC languages can trivially emulate either a counter machine or a tag system, and so making TC proofs easier is mostly accomplished by making easier-to-implement counter machines and easier-to-implement tag systems
< 1760651234 647638 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've always felt that there is a lack of confirmation example programs in tag systems or counter-machine to concretely verify a conversion.  
< 1760651255 749050 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of the issue is that natively written tag is incredibly slow
< 1760651257 636455 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The BCT wiki page example gets used a lot , I've used it and someone else did recently
< 1760651267 915144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you need an optimising interpreter to be able to run it
< 1760651288 759375 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah
< 1760651361 552745 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760651365 996627 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm pretty sure I've written a 'hello world' in 2 reg Minsky machine and was going to figure out how to make an optimising interpreter to let it complete
< 1760651420 817236 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I got distracted by the various MM notations, and how they weren't quite set up for 2-reg
< 1760651512 706805 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's right, I convinced myself PMMN was not TC for 2 registers, then decided it was, but not in the obvious way
> 1760651533 509705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise Cyclic Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166150&oldid=101531 5* 03Ais523 5* (+146) 10/* Example (Collatz sequence) */ credit where this example comes from
< 1760651552 350449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that example is used so much we should properly credit it to the original author
< 1760652007 97677 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For cyclic tag examples I created this BASIC inspired fantasy console idea with an data-string output encoding: https://esolangs.org/wiki/CTBASIC and Tektronix 4010 graphical output for a retro vibe
< 1760652024 356499 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not sure I've written it up well enough to do it justice
< 1760652145 739960 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a pre-calculated rotating cube example that runs using cyclic tag .... it's just output but it cycles over distinct animation frames 
< 1760652207 398392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(very) recently I've been interested in the question of compilations that run quickly in naive tag interpreters
< 1760652209 457847 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I never quite figured out how to do more complex arbitrary conditional branching in CT
< 1760652252 34724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think running a program at a speed that's n log(n) slower than the original is possible (I have a sketch proof at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Globe but the details of both halves are missing)
< 1760652281 286797 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you mean finding useful algorithms that run well in tag systems, or something else?
< 1760652292 897801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a compilation scheme, e.g. Turing machine to tag system
< 1760652300 155535 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which doesn't lose any more performance than necessary
< 1760652309 406809 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aha
< 1760652320 125773 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :efficient translations
< 1760652320 492963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all tag system TCness proofs go via counter machines and store the counters exponentially, so you get a double-exponential slowdown
< 1760652355 762960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although one of the exponentials is fairly to remove with an optimising interpreter)
< 1760652369 617672 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nice to see another user in the wiki wjho likes basic tho
< 1760652412 643209 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess that's what I was trying to figure out with CTBASIC, how to implement higher level programming concepts (mostly)directly.
< 1760652421 285074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC was my first programming language
< 1760652632 883237 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: same...well technicakly it was batch but only dir and cd, as a language i actually coded in itwas basic (and a bunch of hopping on python for like 3 days then leaving it for 3 months then back then out ad nauseam))
< 1760652719 310363 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :blame me being too busy doing weird shit in a c64 emulator i got just for the games and ended up using for peek and poke shitfsckery to even bother with python for a while
< 1760652745 965748 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Getting more direct high level effects in tag systems tends to blow up the number of productions required, that seems to be the trade off. They can be easily generated following simple rules, but they take up space.
< 1760653351 513540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1760653369 914926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760654111 357876 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760654273 557883 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1760654307 660152 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760654307 767269 :salpynx!~salpynx@121.98.105.4 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760655423 92703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166151&oldid=154435 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+18) 10
> 1760655452 32279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166152&oldid=166151 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+5) 10
> 1760655469 300244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Quito056714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166153&oldid=166152 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+2) 10
> 1760655570 134143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Boomerlang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166154&oldid=115671 5* 03Quito0567 5* (+14) 10
< 1760655691 810634 :jgardner!sid553797@user/meow/Wryl CHGHOST sid553797 :user/meow/jgardner
< 1760655825 265299 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760656720 852698 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Quit: zzzz <3
> 1760656747 872386 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166155&oldid=166089 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+120) 10changed 5/8,1;/14,2;1/8,3 added infinite series stuff as well
< 1760656755 272811 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
> 1760656820 960893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166156&oldid=166155 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10counted stuff
> 1760656858 754017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166157&oldid=166156 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
> 1760656872 536254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166158&oldid=166157 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (-1) 10
> 1760657415 192346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166159&oldid=166158 5* 03HyperbolicireworksPen 5* (+153) 10
< 1760658170 922085 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PART :#esolangs
< 1760658712 693592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's another solid way to look at GPUs, yeah.
< 1760658738 409945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Oh hi! Sorry I haven't been on top of that Busy Beaver stuff. Feel free to ping me if I'm blocking progress.
< 1760662771 620882 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-32-126.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760663564 438464 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org NICK :Hoolooboo
> 1760669785 775447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:EZ132/Not C++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166160&oldid=166149 5* 03EZ132 5* (+14) 10/* Design & History */
< 1760670273 1306 :lynndotpy60!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1760670340 25818 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1760674376 722210 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can't say I've done much myself. Interesting choice of venue though 
< 1760674646 401789 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's been something of a reaction to (a) the uncomputability of many of the facts under study, combined with (b) the open refusal of some famous folks to not consider a GitHub repo to be citable even when it has working Coq proofs.
< 1760674862 776494 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the IRC channel and the wiki don't seem like an improvement there
< 1760674921 109206 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, but that's why I've got my own GitHub repo. And the repo does render nicely into a readable format: https://bbgauge.info/
< 1760674959 685758 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a GitHub repo isn't a valid source, so we add another GitHub repo?
< 1760674998 82983 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, I never said that I was smart, only that I'm willing to put in the work~
< 1760675140 70949 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a little curious what does and doesn't count as an "esolang"
< 1760675141 425724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : the open refusal of some famous folks to not consider a GitHub repo to be citable even when it has working Coq proofs. ← I'm sort-of the opposite in that respect, in my PhD I intentionally tried to avoid citing things that weren't publicly available and pick publicly available alternatives
< 1760675177 545689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: defining "esolang" is difficult, a good working definition is that a language is esoteric if being useful to practically program in is not a design goal
< 1760675199 570952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I think that definition is slightly too restrictive
< 1760675228 559145 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I recently re-explained my definition, based on inclusionism vs deletionism, in the context of that one paper that went around: https://lobste.rs/s/ksrmbf/let_s_take_esoteric_programming#c_0gsmih
< 1760675296 138940 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :nql was a means to an end so it fails that test
< 1760675398 945251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am thinking of Waterfall Construction Kit, a language I designed to write one program – I wrote the program and compiled it by hand without ever working out what the Waterfall Construction Kit specification was, and then abandoned the language it was written in
< 1760675409 129977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, maybe the ends aren't practical. NQL or bfmacro are great for producing programs for low-level machines that don't physically exist. They can be ergonomic while addressing problems in pure maths. An extreme example of that might be https://esolangs.org/wiki/Sammy which isn't known to be computable.
< 1760675411 189340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that an esolang?
< 1760675435 297600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess both the "esoteric" and "language" halves of that are debatable!
< 1760675486 765129 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like solidity comes to mind
< 1760675511 438775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I just realised there's a sort of implicit assumption of "a programming language that is only useful when used with esolangs is an esolang" that I've never questioned before
< 1760675522 455893 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :which _does_ have massive corporate backing, but I'm uncomfortable defining things strictly in terms of context
< 1760675578 16962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I actually haven't looked at what solidity is like as a language, I kind-of assumed it was a relatively normal low-level VM, the same sort of thing as webassembly or the JVM, but I might be completely wrong
< 1760675702 679425 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that git repositories (hosted on GitHub or something else) can be citable, although when citing something that can be changed then it might be worth to specify what version; in the case of git you can specify the commit hash, and that might also help in case it is mirrored to something else then you can also find the matching commit hash.
< 1760675702 910530 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eye of the beholder, I guess; all three of those VMs are bonkers as compilation targets. I never did figure out how to compile Cammy to WASM in a satisfying way, nor Monte on JVM, although maybe I just didn't try very hard.
< 1760675723 637355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after looking it up, it seems that I confused the VM (which is called EVM) with the language (Solidity) commonly used to compile to it
< 1760675743 348606 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Citing something that is publicly available is also good, rather than something that is not publicly available because then you could not easily check the citation if it is not public
< 1760675743 508870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one of my recent pet theories is that everyone is doing IRs incorrectly
< 1760675801 348727 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you know what is the proper way to do IRs?
< 1760675826 525485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the most important thing I would change would be to separate out UB from everything else: there would be an assert/assume instruction that defines circumstances to be UB, and all the other commands would be well-defined (although the definition could in some cases be "whatever the hardware does" for things like writing dangling pointers)
< 1760675871 957452 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way, optimisations never cause you to lose track of what your UB assumptions are
< 1760675885 112992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can preserve them as you optimise the code around them
< 1760675890 924493 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that would be reasonable, for that and possibly other reasons too
< 1760675902 49128 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this also means that if you want defined behaviour in a particular case, you can just remove the UB assumption you'd normally emit
< 1760675933 987075 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with "dangling and out of range pointers do whatever the hardware does" is that it prevents optimizations that affect things that shouldn't be visible but can be made visible by pointer misuse, like stack frame layout and slot reuse
< 1760675937 791794 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Yeah. In the case of Busy Beaver research, the problem is that our person doesn't really want to verify the artifacts in the repo; they want "either a prose writeup explaining what was done or independent verification of its correctness", quoting https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=9152#comment-2016433
< 1760675969 118693 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :this came up in the cakeml stack
< 1760676003 239624 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So in the case of e.g. Leng 2024, they would prefer that somebody who isn't Leng (me?) run the Coq proofs and confirm that they pass. I did that! But where do I put the prose so that it's acceptable?
< 1760676036 744777 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what exactly are the coq proofs?
< 1760676087 113557 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, not Leng, but mxdys; https://github.com/ccz181078/Coq-BB5 is the repo. Proofs of certain values of BB.
< 1760676088 978527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : the problem with "dangling and out of range pointers do whatever the hardware does" is that it prevents optimizations that affect things that shouldn't be visible but can be made visible by pointer misuse, like stack frame layout and slot reuse ← that's why you have the UB assumptions – they permit that sort of optimization even though the rest of the IR doesn't
< 1760676114 521356 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would help to have a proper prose writeup which is publicly available, in addition to the git repository, but if you do not have it then you will have to do what you do have, instead.
< 1760676124 440951 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, BB(small)
< 1760676125 180825 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They also don't acknowledge Leng's TM for Goldbach Conjecture, verified in Lean 4: https://github.com/lengyijun/goldbach_tm
< 1760676126 409449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a writeup of that now, I think
< 1760676163 389933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I bet they wouldn't acknowledge my 2-state 14-symbol universal TM
< 1760676171 768979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is written up half on esowiki and half on codegolf stack exchange
< 1760676263 185045 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Let's just say that there's a lot that Aaronson doesn't acknowledge, and leave it at that. Some of us think he's too biased elsewhere to be an acceptable primary source here. I'm still citing him properly for the contributions he's made.
< 1760676317 764418 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't appear to have your TM in the Gauge, either. Do you have a link? I can take a look now, and I'll open an issue on GitHub if it takes me more than a few days.
< 1760676356 162094 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway I think the gold standard for citing is "anything with a DOI" and the astro-ph people have a bunch of tools for turning code repos into something that can be cited
< 1760676385 500182 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :OTOH it would be nice to have a complete explanation and not "here's 500 lines of python have fun"
< 1760676461 309966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111278/turing-complete-language-interpreter/265539#265539
< 1760676467 668664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Totally fair. My current standard is somewhere between "live link to a PDF" and "working Nix flake", but I think I'm a bit more of a hardscrabbler than a paper-writer. Certainly I haven't contributed anything of interest.
< 1760676498 356316 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be nice to have a proof for the zfc turing machines but there's a bunch of pieces to chain together, including the validity of the tarski-megill predicate calculus itself
< 1760676511 449163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote the Turing machine in question in 2019 but didn't prove it universal until 2023 (and the proof hasn't been peer-reviewed so it might be wrong)
< 1760676537 602120 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What is the DOI of a GitHub repository? Can you cite a specific version?
< 1760676579 777691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can definitely cite a particular version of a git repository, via providing the hash (which is, to any reasonable approximation, globally unique)
< 1760676580 599924 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Swag, thanks. I'll have to do more research to understand the previous champion that you mention, too.
< 1760676611 132741 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and GitHub allows for links that are tied to the git hash
< 1760676624 799651 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://docs.github.com/en/repositories/archiving-a-github-repository/referencing-and-citing-content huh, there's Official Guidance now
< 1760676660 401578 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Something I've thought about a *lot*, and I presume you have too: what's the main obstacle to just implementing Metamath's Algorithm D as a low-level machine? That'd let us automatically compile quite a few interesting theories.
< 1760676729 350726 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I worry that proving that the cut-down algorithm is correct might be more effort than just proving that the implementation is actually Algo D. I also have an unhealthy desire for generalization.
< 1760676793 864253 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :where is that defined?
< 1760676925 548935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Um, probably The Book, metamath.pdf. IIRC it comes from Meredith's work and Tarski showed its completeness. Might be misremembering the name; Meredith called it something like "algorithm of detached inference".
< 1760676991 472233 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :meredith's work to the extent I remember was exclusively propositional calculus, which has limited computational relevance
< 1760677055 899416 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://projecteuclid.org/journals/notre-dame-journal-of-formal-logic/volume-36/issue-3/A-Finitely-Axiomatized-Formalization-of-Predicate-Calculus-with-Equality/10.1305/ndjfl/1040149359.pdf p. 5 has D
< 1760677124 531721 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a unification process which requires parsing the wffs, intuitively seems far more complicated than the parsing-free approach
< 1760677179 119940 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. But all of the parsing can be done at compile time; the actual unifications only have to proceed abstractly over some Herbrand structure, I think.
< 1760677229 13071 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember asking Mario something similar about whether we could mechanically extract a CFG from a Metamath database. IIRC he was like "yeah but why?"
< 1760677372 763479 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you still need to recursively/iteratively process terms, track used and unused variables, etc
< 1760677462 653261 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :fundamentally it's a tool to allow maximum proof reuse through metavariables, but that's useless in a TM context so zf2.nql works purely with object variables and fully concrete formulas
< 1760677524 899410 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's fair. My notes on proof search in ETCS are full of similar hacks, but I think I went too far; I convinced myself that ETCS is obviously consistent and now I don't know what to search for.
< 1760677623 155554 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't done ETCC yet. If I figure out how to compute Sammy then maybe a Sammy interpreter would be smaller than ETCC contradiction search.
< 1760677647 791022 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't know how to compute Kan extensions in general and it seems to be a bit of an open problem.
< 1760677661 852452 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :what are the above?
< 1760677711 879107 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :etcs/etcc/sammy; there's a wiki article for kan but i've always been terrible at categories
< 1760677729 667723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Category theory junk. ETCS is a theory of sets and functions; ETCS + Choice + Replacement is bi-interpretable with ZFC. ETCC is a theory of categories and functors, and Sammy's an esoteric language describing constructions in ETCC.
< 1760677765 653405 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I literally cannot hold a functor correctly; I'm always mixing up its variance and domains.
< 1760677772 575408 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :zf2 _is_ general enough to express an arbitrary grammatically unambiguous metamath database with minor/"obvious" changes
> 1760677846 309942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166161&oldid=158865 5* 03None1 5* (+615) 10
< 1760678067 893355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! I wouldn't ask if I didn't see it in the code history. I want to have a strong basis from which to evaluate CatsAreFluffy's work, since it seems like they're doing lots of small tweaks to the low-level proof statements without a high-level justification or verification.
< 1760678252 665567 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I figure that I won't know until I write more NQL, but did I miss anything when hacking out the wiki page? I got globals and procedures, natural numbers, assignments and lookups, if- and while-statements, and the history.
< 1760678266 277893 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! So I forgot arithmetic.
< 1760678437 744010 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the big improvement recently seems to be a switch from fixed length to variable length program counters, which is something I carefully considered before deciding it wasn't possible, my big goal is to understand what was actually done there
< 1760678493 152598 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a fairly boring algol/C clone (even has call by name!), if you caught the lisp, forth, and perl 6 references take a cookie
< 1760678593 261495 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's if-decr and the builtin mechanism, not sure about "history"
< 1760678717 997311 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's the 2016 theorem, the related language Laconic, and probably will be a new chapter after we get all of these new commits wrangled.
< 1760678796 522988 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, the history of nql as described in the wiki page, thought you were talking about "history" as an internal feature of the language
< 1760678828 340034 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, ha, sorry. Bad with words tonight.
< 1760678995 948552 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'll most likely merge the improvements if I manage to understand them
< 1760679074 685662 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :part of the goal being to understand catsarefluffy's subprogram register machine well enough to explain it in prose
< 1760679318 877916 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cool. No rush. My goal is only to have a git commit that can build the rest of the book, and that can provide an apples-to-apples comparison of everybody's NQL programs. I don't want anybody's old code to be unfairly compared to somebody's new result just because of a compiler difference!
< 1760679332 637959 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :book?
< 1760679353 697437 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The BB Gauge. It's basically a living book, even though it's just a cruddy little website.
< 1760679387 992196 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, I have one commit that makes everything build for me, and I'll send that for review.
< 1760679478 829488 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll do what I can
> 1760679908 648542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not-Quite-Laconic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166162&oldid=164204 5* 03Corbin 5* (+803) 10/* Overview */ Document arithmetic and comparisons. (Everybody do the monus! The monus is a dance! Everybody is a genius! Who knows it in advance!)
< 1760680115 626210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so recently a new user registered on the esowiki and wrote that they're interested in a language that I had documented. that means it's worth to document esoteric languages on the wiki. I'm just mentioning this just in case you ever despair about the state of the wiki and all the junk there is on
< 1760680416 637765 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I appreciate that, thanks.
< 1760680481 572346 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they fixed a mistake where I documented that language incorrectly. or they introduced a mistake, I don't really know.
> 1760680542 609349 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not-Quite-Laconic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166163&oldid=166162 5* 03Corbin 5* (+180) 10/* Procedures */ Document switch-statements somewhat. My understanding of the limitations here is from reading the grammar and AST.
< 1760680583 892903 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166111
< 1760680744 594538 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that's incorrect
< 1760680755 988241 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're not a new user, they wrote that they were interested in that language back in year 2022
> 1760680843 310691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166164&oldid=66278 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+71) 10
< 1760682342 271885 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760686430 674159 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760694898 482760 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760694912 588672 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1760695278 293937 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1760696027 845480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that complexity class argument on the NQL page – it's not completely obvious to me that ZFC being able to prove itself inconsistent implies that it actually *is* inconsistent
< 1760696121 136768 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because it doesn't seem obviously necessary for it to have enough introspection to be able to get from there to a contradiction, and being able to prove false statements also doesn't imply that a system is inconsistent)
< 1760700719 109206 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760701002 947928 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760701003 814309 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1760701082 187717 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760701697 724962 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-159-19.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760703265 24675 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' friday
< 1760703267 392767 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :352)  as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 510)  CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects
< 1760703292 63889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I should've known that #352 would come up again
< 1760703321 424129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` quote friday | paste
< 1760703323 618548 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6670
< 1760706019 907011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760706689 431327 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ZFC+Not(Con(ZFC)) is a perfectly consistent theory (assuming Con(ZFC)), any model must merely have an "inconsistency proof" as a non-standard natural, this is well known 
< 1760706764 300791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I keep wondering what separates a standard model of ZFC from others.
< 1760707068 525691 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :short answer is that a standard model contains objects which correspond to the metatheory
< 1760707256 913842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760707274 559009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cool, but then we're in the situation where it's meta theories all the way down.
< 1760707301 281181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now I can delude myself into believing that there's a unique standard model for Peano Arithmetic, but set theory is much richer.
< 1760707385 185120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And ZFC (the first-order axiom schema version) has a countable model... and that's not the standard model... or is it...
< 1760707406 444757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I find it very confusing :)
< 1760708131 161864 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :model theory in general is infinitary, if you want to work concretely you need to translate whatever into the language of proofs
< 1760708421 819469 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, fortunately the answer to this standard model puzzle is irrelevant to doing math. No impact on the real world either. :)
< 1760709645 629913 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :them's fighting words
< 1760710332 763907 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Fortunately, in second-order logic, there's only *the* one unique natural numbers.
< 1760710352 487372 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, if one doesn't know that then non-standard nats are going to always be spooky. Appropriate for October, at least.
< 1760710624 980290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Sure, but then you get that natural numbers are unique in each model of set theory, and it's still relative to picking a model of that ;)
< 1760710681 59113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The fundamental issue will always be this infinite stack of meta-theories.)
< 1760710719 479719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It is fun to ponder, but I don't expect any answers. I'll happily leave that to philosophers ;)
< 1760710748 884175 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yeah. At the same time, we can imagine that second-order logic, which presupposes those sets, has *enough* subsets of natural numbers. There's some nasty subsets like 0♯ whose existence has implications, but just taking a finite or cofinite set isn't a problem.
< 1760712910 506118 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760712998 413174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Turing machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166165&oldid=154622 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1270) 10Stub a section on halting. Most of the good stuff's already in [[computable]], but the overview isn't stated elsewhere.
< 1760713042 185342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not really liking the 
  X  
 Define and initialize X. Any variable is assigned a value of 0 at the beginning.  === Increment and Decrement === 
  X 
 Set X 
> 1760779288 160515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fun Video Game14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166204&oldid=165972 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+515) 10
> 1760784251 744646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DerpScrp14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166205&oldid=68234 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+687) 10Supplemented two example programs, added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub, and altered the Unimplemented page category tag to Implemented.
> 1760784384 911758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DerpScrp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166206&oldid=166205 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+1) 10Supplemented a missing ecphoneme ! in the description of an example program.
< 1760784707 460843 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1760787024 536934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WY-Anglis14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166207 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5704) 10Created page with "WY-Anglis is designed by PSTF, is the Englishized version of wenyan.  == Code Sample == All the commands are equivalent to Wenyan, and now I don't want to write them. If you can program in Wenyan and LOLCODE, you can also program in WY-Anglis.  === Hello, world!
> 1760787149 511092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166208&oldid=166173 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+13) 10
< 1760787385 936365 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760787418 988292 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1760787464 286426 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1760787804 792858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166209 5* 03Ivava 5* (+1855) 10Created page with "{{Stub}} {{WIP}}  {{infobox proglang |name=Vesob |year=2025  |author=[[User:Ivava]]  |refimpl=Python }}  '''Vesob''' is easy minimalistic character by character esoteric programming language for some popular examples and output, if else.
Vesob helps in IP things with som
> 1760788006 394582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166210&oldid=166170 5* 03Ivava 5* (+14) 10/* Esolangs list */
> 1760788396 776542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166211&oldid=166209 5* 03Ivava 5* (+89) 10/* Commands */
< 1760788495 551542 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d983:2af2:5deb:9bbb QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760791590 477022 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1760792445 644291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/My Rate to the user that I know14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166212&oldid=165771 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+423) 10
> 1760792885 248562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DerpScrp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166213&oldid=166206 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+0) 10Improved the formatting of a code segment.
< 1760793002 585286 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5da6:eb72:7bdc:37c8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760794299 442484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Intiha 5*  10New user account
< 1760796981 746908 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760796982 452633 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760797065 591546 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760797189 254901 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1760797982 281360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07'Python' is not recognized14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166214&oldid=164539 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-31) 10/* Syntax */
> 1760798392 942523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Blainbuk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166215&oldid=151103 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+0) 10/* Commands */  "chat input" lol
< 1760799250 513861 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1760802581 91391 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1760804173 848153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RocketRace14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166216&oldid=166076 5* 03RocketRace 5* (-45) 10
> 1760804269 644510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166217&oldid=166079 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+35) 10
> 1760805028 826037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Important lesbian virtual machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166218&oldid=166217 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+0) 10typo
< 1760806324 138007 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1760808349 357109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166219&oldid=166211 5* 03Ivava 5* (+550) 10
< 1760809154 597061 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw JOIN #esolangs Somelauw :somelauw
< 1760809196 792203 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm thinking about some language ideas
< 1760809294 39176 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like stack based languages but noticed that comparison operators like > and != drop the items compared. Would it perhaps make sense to leave them on the stack, so you don't need to duplicate them?
< 1760809612 63336 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760810116 709759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it makes sense to drop the top item but not the bottom one
< 1760810129 182603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you're often comparing to a constant
< 1760810166 130111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking about it, variable-based languages also drop on comparison (if I do a>b I have to write the names of a and b again if I want to use them again)
< 1760810229 108228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86-64 SIMD programming is interesting because although it has traditional comparison operators, it also has min/max and those are normally more useful
< 1760810281 803293 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :True, x > 0 ... (and now i probably want to just drop 0)
< 1760810382 572153 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually it's interesting to think about why you're comparing, especially when using an array paradigm rather than imperative paradigm
< 1760810399 450411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it for control flow? or are you trying to do a filter?
< 1760810419 988817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in imperative languages the two operations are the same but the "correct" way to implement them is very different in machine code
< 1760810503 67693 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking mostly about flow control. I haven't thought about filtering yet
> 1760810623 75862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166220&oldid=166219 5* 03Ivava 5* (+2498) 10
> 1760810664 324398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166221&oldid=166220 5* 03Ivava 5* (+3) 10
< 1760811043 112615 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760811125 553055 :somelauw!~somelauw@i5231.upc-i.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :somelauw
< 1760811129 544022 :somelauw!~somelauw@i5231.upc-i.chello.nl CHGHOST ~somelauw :user/somelauw
< 1760811189 772266 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somelauw: Think of stack operators as generalizations of functions. A comparison function might take two arguments and return one argument. The rest of the stack is just along for the ride.
> 1760811298 670888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166222&oldid=166221 5* 03Ivava 5* (+43) 10
< 1760811324 528828 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, because we have words like dup, it's easy to mistakenly think that every value is copyable. But that's not always the case! Plenty of low-level languages like Factor can have resources on the stack which shouldn't be dup'ed.
< 1760811479 298695 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :well in that view, dup would be an operator to somewhat explicitly pass a parameter to functioo
< 1760811507 625404 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! Have you seen quotations, as in Factor or Joy?
< 1760811514 610579 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would expect everything to be more or less dupable/copyable indeed
< 1760811571 588720 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1760811600 720382 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1760811616 120546 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somelauw: You might get a kick out of a classic H. Baker paper about copying stacks: https://plover.com/~mjd/misc/hbaker-archive/ForthStack.html
< 1760811649 76700 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That one is usually paired with another paper about Lisp which you can skip: https://plover.com/~mjd/misc/hbaker-archive/LinearLisp.html
> 1760811715 339767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166223&oldid=166222 5* 03Ivava 5* (+100) 10
< 1760811754 793709 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'm more familiar with forth, factor than joy
< 1760811945 359939 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somelauw: Anyway, there *is* an answer to your initial question. Let's say that a Forth implementation is either "push/enter" or "eval/apply". In a push/enter Forth, we call functions by passing the entire stack; the function is responsible for popping stuff from the stack. In an eval/apply Forth, we call functions by asking the function for its arity, popping the stack ourselves, and invoking the function as a native call.
< 1760811959 296417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It turns out that eval/apply is faster for real-world languages: https://simonmar.github.io/bib/papers/eval-apply.pdf
< 1760812013 413370 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So if we have a native comparison operation like > and we are doing eval/apply then we will call > by popping the stack twice, doing a native call of > using registers and leaving the result in a register, and finally pushing the result back to the stack.
< 1760812050 436410 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Top-of-stack optimizations apply here; if we have a unary call and top-of-stack register then we only have to swizzle registers before and after the native call.
< 1760812105 397698 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I shouldn't say "real-world". I mean "higher-order"; I mean languages with quotations.
> 1760812112 762827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesob14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166224&oldid=166223 5* 03Ivava 5* (+15) 10
< 1760812813 555735 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1760812851 302271 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw JOIN #esolangs Somelauw :somelauw
< 1760813165 442289 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw PRIVMSG #esolangs :i would expect an optimizer to inline both push/enter and eval/apply anyway
< 1760813696 971901 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760813989 66253 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, they don't understand yet. That's fine; there's no rush.
< 1760814200 295352 :somelauw!~somelauw@2001:1c00:b80f:f100:ac6d:fc9a:1e33:4bf7 JOIN #esolangs * :somelauw
< 1760814200 382378 :somelauw!~somelauw@2001:1c00:b80f:f100:ac6d:fc9a:1e33:4bf7 CHGHOST ~somelauw :user/somelauw
< 1760814390 183362 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somelauw: A Sufficiently Smart Compiler could inline both when doing whole-program compilation, yes. But note that the typical Forth is incrementally compiled, and also that it's usually threaded; threaded Forths must be push/enter in order to let user-defined words have variable arity.
< 1760814395 295226 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 4.7.0
< 1760814432 609864 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What the Simons showed is that eval/apply is preferable when doing whole-program compilation, given that the compiler might not know the arity of all words at compile time.
< 1760814453 765299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unrelated: Anybody else reading the most recent Smalltalk-on-filesystem paper? https://programmingmadecomplicated.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/onward25-jakubovic.pdf
< 1760814916 615655 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera JOIN #esolangs Riviera ::)
< 1760815582 929944 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :somelauw: I'll have to check Comun, I think it might have an optimization where some operations have a variant that keeps the bottom argument on the stack, but you access it through peephole optimization instead of a named primitive
> 1760815679 375872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esolangist 5*  10New user account
< 1760815853 741676 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't have it documented for Cammy, but operations in the stack machine are "term" if they only operate on top of stack. Cammy's tuples are packed, so dup is term; overall 33 ops are term and 19 are not. Arithmetic, comparisons, case analysis, floating-point are all term. The idea is that an op is term iff there's an efficient machine op capturing it; term ops are what the low-level machine does.
> 1760815871 828570 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166225&oldid=166166 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+197) 10/* Introductions */
< 1760815896 768627 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't compatible with the standard unpacked untyped view of memory in Forth though.
> 1760815905 951945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166226&oldid=166208 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+11) 10/* Non-alphabetic */
< 1760815985 688879 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eek, I still can't read Comun's source code. it's written in a style that's somehow transparent and opaque at the same time
< 1760816297 370177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like there's something significantly different between "x inputs, y outputs" stack-based systems, and Underload's where the amount of stack consumed can be condiional and it's reasonabe to do things like storing lists splatted on the stack
< 1760816335 449977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is, in a sense, the same "unbalanced loop" phenomenon as in BF – Underload lets you write a loop that changes the stack height at every iteration
< 1760816435 308910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: In Cammy's case, it's an explicit papering-over of what the CAM can do. The CAM can do things like unwind a packed list onto the stack or pop the stack until a sentinel is reached; it's only like five opcodes maybe. But Cammy can't express either of those things; indeed Cammy can't actually access CAM's stack.
< 1760816523 684678 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But that's rather because I *wanted* that separation of concerns, for speed; optimizing a sequence of term ops is straightforward and RPython's JIT emits really tight code in those situations. It would usually hurt speed to let the user interrupt that with an expensive list-unpacking loop.
< 1760816540 290008 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking about Mini-Flak, which is powered by two stacks but one of them has stack height which is lexically tied to the nesting level of the programming source (i.e. push and pop instructions have to nest correctly as though they were brackets, and this nesting has to be consistent with the control flow instructions too)
< 1760816547 883126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would be sub-TC if not for the fact that it has bignums
< 1760816591 950482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, having a restrictive programming language is good for optimisation purposes
< 1760816622 370738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am hoping that my next "big" programming project will be a language which I try to restrict as much as possible while still making it practically useful, in order to enable very powerful optimisations
< 1760816654 682606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except not pure-functional as that's been done already
< 1760816746 513500 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not entirely sure, but I think Comun doesn't have the optimization that I mentioned, but in any case, a forth-like stack interpreter could have something like this
< 1760816748 442240 :somelauw!~somelauw@user/somelauw QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760816788 662597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(by programming project I mean programming language project, not programming in general)
< 1760817049 536359 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I was actually vaguely thinking about a retro programming language that pretends to be a hypothetical low memory (early 2000s) programmable calculator, where the programs are written in a stack language of the kind that allows functions that push or pop a variable amount, but the calculator interface can dynamically translate the program to one of those BASIC-like languages with infix 
< 1760817055 535082 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :operations, and where the program isn't easy to translate to that it would put PUSH statements or POP functions into the BASIC
< 1760817106 827926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way I'm sad that there's rarely any reason to do extreme memory-saving programming nowadays
< 1760817136 491725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect even microcontrollers have more RAM than they used to – the ones I worked with had approximately 100 bytes of memory but I suspect modern ones have a lot more
> 1760817140 160497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166227&oldid=163224 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+461) 10added commands yay
< 1760817152 789827 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :100 bytes of RAM, that is, they had a few kilobyte of EEPROM
< 1760817162 879520 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by the way, something like that exists, it's called S-lang, it's a macro language that pretends to have a normal infix syntax but can also do variable pushes or pops
< 1760817187 23270 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm thinking of 2048 bytes of RAM because that's what my programmable calculator has
< 1760817199 517296 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a SHARP EL-5120
< 1760818371 332304 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they still make "small" (in the 64-256 bytes) RAM microcontrollers too, like the venerable PIC family ones. But it's also definitely easy to find ones with orders of magnitude more, too.
< 1760818414 208344 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The RP2040 has 264 kB of RAM, for example.
< 1760818497 377193 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :And the new one they made for Pico 2, the RP2350, it's apparently got about double that (520 kB).
< 1760818519 678982 :somelauw!~somelauw@i5231.upc-i.chello.nl JOIN #esolangs * :somelauw
< 1760818748 223495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm saddened to realise that most modern programmers would have no idea how to fit a program's memory usage into 520 kB
< 1760818797 722993 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :our typical tools for programming don't make that very easy – lots of heavy libraries and dependencies
< 1760818873 513625 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Many programs can use much less than that. But, I think you are right unfortunately many modern programmers (although not all) use too many dependencies and use too much memory and other stuff.
< 1760818948 306367 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :The MESH:Hero game engine uses an internal RPN code (which is saved to disk in binary format) but when editing, it is converted to infix notation. However, as far as I know, there is no PUSH and POP in the source format.
< 1760819054 954776 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think many programmable calculators (like you mention) do too; I have TI-92 and I have managd to confuse it with the use of an undocumented error code which seems to be used internally when you push ON to stop a user program that is currently running.
< 1760819815 866130 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Depends on how much time I'm given. I was eager to write BASIC on a TI-84, but only in high school when there wasn't anything else to do.
< 1760820011 769939 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1760820454 715143 :somelauw!~somelauw@i5231.upc-i.chello.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1760820620 909463 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mouse 5*  10New user account
> 1760820988 140865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166228&oldid=163446 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+64) 10
> 1760821354 122571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166229&oldid=166225 5* 03Mouse 5* (+80) 10/* Introductions */
< 1760821407 80538 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's why I'm sometimes thinking of how I can optimize an interpreter of a high-level language such that you can spawn many interpreters and each one consumes very little memory other than read-only memory that can be safely shared between interpreters and processes
< 1760821487 480964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can be hard because even a fresh interpreter will have a lot of built-in objects (eg. built-in types and functions) that some programs can modify, but you have to encode them in such a way that you can store modifications but you don't need a huge read-write table in the common case when there are no or very few modifications
< 1760821508 58816 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there's of course a tradeoff between this and the speed of operations
> 1760821542 836690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166230&oldid=166229 5* 03Mouse 5* (+76) 10/* Introductions */
< 1760821546 841381 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this is hard especially for existing languages like javascript or python or ruby that allow such modifications
< 1760821598 797226 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :easier for a new language that you design specifically for this
< 1760821657 910740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm wondering how that would work in terms of how it's seen by the kernel – are the high-level interpreters coroutines in a single thread, threads in a single process, or separate processes?
< 1760821735 843967 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's an open question, but I think that doesn't much influence what I want to optimize 
< 1760822151 321514 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most likely a combination where there can be more than one process, but also a process can have multiple interpreters 
< 1760822228 339540 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the shared content is either linked into the executable or mmapped from some read-only files 
< 1760822924 115240 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, we just had a similar discussion
< 1760822940 538379 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And y'all aren't talking about the Smalltix paper, right?
< 1760823019 66193 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :coroutines can be implemented in various manners, and even the definition of a coroutine can be stretched to something along a light-weight tread
< 1760823023 694777 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*thread
< 1760823039 47159 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, a Nix store would be an example of that sort of "read-only memory" if we're thinking of files as objects rather than inert; an immutable object could be compiled to bytes which are content-addressed in the Nix store rather than ambient in the local environment. Indeed, this is basically how Monte uses Nix as a package manager!
< 1760824409 892301 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: smalltix paper?
< 1760824535 143730 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, found it in the scrollback
> 1760825027 957760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smoothbrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166231&oldid=166047 5* 03Ashli Katt 5* (+9) 10/* Program */ Add "However," to make the paragraph flow smoother
< 1760825291 96940 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I'm at Section 11, thinking about performance. The real issue is something not mentioned in the paper: context switches and non-VDSO syscalls.
< 1760825430 555862 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korbo: my problem is mutable objects, in a language that has lots of mutable objects. 
< 1760825511 800687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760825736 260650 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Right. And similarly I know that modern Smalltalks do *not* have perfectly serialized transactions for every invocation. Something has to give; we can only sync a disk like 20 to 100 times per second.
< 1760825996 396360 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :One possible abstraction is array-style parallel programming. It's usually safe to interrupt programs like sed or jq midway through some data, for example. This would require the `bind` script to clean up after each process, which is plausible.
< 1760826040 784732 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They mention FUSE but I'm thinking more about tmpfs. The kernel's directory-management logic is not too bad, given that we usually want to contend on multiple resources at once.
< 1760826105 204907 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe asynchrony is the main feature here. This setup naturally gets concurrency as long as the kernel is correct. In that sense it's not too different from systems like Scala's Akka where each actor is too large to transparently migrate but its underlying storage can be persistent.
< 1760831965 66039 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1760833057 836787 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760833303 953911 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1760835067 914257 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760837165 703440 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1760837173 934506 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760837300 193790 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1760839193 678254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WY-Anglis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166232&oldid=166207 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+2481) 10
> 1760839267 831124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WY-Anglis14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166233&oldid=166232 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+20) 10
< 1760839502 880010 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760839537 944863 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1760840844 946460 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ERN468 5*  10New user account
> 1760841168 160635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166234&oldid=166230 5* 03ERN468 5* (+226) 10I added my introduction
> 1760841290 757889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EA Script, It's in the code.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166235&oldid=151304 5* 03ERN468 5* (+4) 10Add reference to APLWSI page
< 1760846943 161928 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1760852676 945918 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 JOIN #esolangs myname :myname
> 1760853716 178526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Loop FizzBuzz14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166236 5* 03TheSpiderNinjas 5* (+529) 10Created page with "'''Non-Loop FizzBuzz''' is like [[FizzBuzz]] but instead of doing a range of number you indefinitely ask the user for input and then print the FizzBuzz number.  == Example == === Code: === 
 while True:   i = int(input("Enter a number: "))   if i % 
> 1760854680 117583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03JTO IS JUMP TO 5*  10New user account
> 1760855996 448432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166237&oldid=166234 5* 03Intiha 5* (+193) 10
> 1760856120 638175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166238 5* 03Intiha 5* (+539) 10Created page with "About Me: Hi! Im Intiha. Im fascinated by esoteric programming languages and love experimenting with weird and creative language concepts. I enjoy making new languages, forks, and exploring programming challenges just for fun.  Projects / Interests:  Creating new esol
> 1760856154 881698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166239 5* 03Intiha 5* (+1518) 10Created page with "## Overview  ThingLangOOP is a minimal C implementation inspired by ThingLang, which was made by [[User:Rasa8877]]. It combines a compiler and runner in a single file, fully compatible with TCC. Supports variable assignment, printing, loops, events, and comments.  #
> 1760856175 562191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166240&oldid=166239 5* 03Intiha 5* (-1) 10
> 1760856359 292488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166241&oldid=166240 5* 03Intiha 5* (+56) 10
> 1760856411 748491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166242&oldid=166241 5* 03Intiha 5* (+10) 10
> 1760856681 350348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166243&oldid=166242 5* 03Intiha 5* (+7874) 10
> 1760856716 761855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166244&oldid=166243 5* 03Intiha 5* (-2) 10
> 1760856748 162440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166245&oldid=166244 5* 03Intiha 5* (+3) 10
> 1760856961 128240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166246&oldid=166245 5* 03Intiha 5* (-7810) 10
> 1760857044 905025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166247&oldid=166246 5* 03Intiha 5* (+16) 10
> 1760857909 467192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Rasa887714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166248&oldid=164628 5* 03Intiha 5* (+241) 10
> 1760857971 466971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166249&oldid=166247 5* 03Intiha 5* (+0) 10
> 1760858059 782537 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166250&oldid=166249 5* 03Intiha 5* (-7) 10
> 1760859409 172448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166251&oldid=166238 5* 03Intiha 5* (+28) 10
> 1760859428 774518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166252&oldid=166251 5* 03Intiha 5* (+22) 10
> 1760859460 249358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166253&oldid=166252 5* 03Intiha 5* (+4) 10
> 1760859482 169277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166254&oldid=166253 5* 03Intiha 5* (-22) 10
> 1760859558 366942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166255&oldid=166226 5* 03Intiha 5* (+45) 10
> 1760859956 708870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Loop FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166256&oldid=166236 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+879) 10
> 1760860040 659749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166257 5* 03Intiha 5* (+2948) 10Created page with "=== Overview === Yes/No is a minimalistic esolang made by [[User:Intiha]] where every program consists solely of the words **Yes** and **No**. Programs are sequences of these words, and their meaning is derived from binary patterns.  ==== Basics ====  * `Yes` = 1 * `No` =
> 1760860066 609673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non-Loop FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166258&oldid=166256 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+59) 10
> 1760860217 610896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166259&oldid=166257 5* 03Intiha 5* (-931) 10
> 1760860251 462576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166260&oldid=166259 5* 03Intiha 5* (-31) 10
> 1760860266 627430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166261&oldid=166260 5* 03Intiha 5* (+1) 10
> 1760860393 62986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166262&oldid=166254 5* 03Intiha 5* (-220) 10
> 1760860421 169091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Intiha14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166263&oldid=166262 5* 03Intiha 5* (+2) 10
> 1760861022 64639 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166264&oldid=166261 5* 03Intiha 5* (+9165) 10
> 1760861054 976275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166265&oldid=166264 5* 03Intiha 5* (+1) 10
> 1760861090 349090 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166266&oldid=166265 5* 03Intiha 5* (-8) 10/* Hello world! */
> 1760861213 214753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166267&oldid=166266 5* 03Intiha 5* (+384) 10
> 1760861362 88350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166268&oldid=166267 5* 03Intiha 5* (-75) 10
< 1760862183 180947 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :might be of interest to esolangs: https://www.righto.com/2025/10/solve-nyt-pips-with-constraints.html "Solving the NYTimes Pips puzzle with a constraint solver" blog entry by Ken Shirriff
< 1760862280 888225 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ken Shirriff introduces himself to the world of finite domain constraint problems
> 1760862605 711089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166269&oldid=166268 5* 03Intiha 5* (+110) 10
> 1760862767 883259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166270&oldid=166269 5* 03Intiha 5* (+198) 10/* Python Interpreter */
> 1760863324 777941 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166271&oldid=166255 5* 03Intiha 5* (+25) 10/* Y */
< 1760865701 881155 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1760866712 243345 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166272&oldid=166270 5* 03Intiha 5* (+81) 10
> 1760866931 908956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166273&oldid=166250 5* 03Intiha 5* (-1) 10
> 1760868036 333807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Yes/No14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166274 5* 03Intiha 5* (+220) 10Created page with "Hello! this is the talk page for Yes/No feel free to say anything here, except hate speech, politics and the racism/sexist stuff  == this is where you say stuff == (EXAMPLE: ```{Your Name}: Hello, World!``` and the time)"
> 1760868123 536745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166275&oldid=166271 5* 03Intiha 5* (-25) 10/* Y */
> 1760868185 310025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166276&oldid=166275 5* 03Intiha 5* (+25) 10/* Non-alphabetic */
< 1760868901 334796 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760869616 861657 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166277&oldid=166276 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-54) 10fixed the non-alphabeting list
> 1760870482 597004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ALMFCPLIR14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166278&oldid=161715 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-9) 10
< 1760871060 178372 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1760871107 169278 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION → Bathtub     😌        🐋

> 1760871744 500631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166279&oldid=166274 5* 03Intiha 5* (-8) 10
> 1760872372 262633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166280&oldid=166227 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+109) 10
> 1760872557 430814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166281 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+66) 10Created page with "Hello there! I will plan to make many esolangs.  Goodbye (for now)"
< 1760873767 332504 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760873818 954973 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1760873847 186382 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1760874329 348849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphacode14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166282 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+1183) 10Created page with "Alphacode is an esolang made by [[User:Esolangist]]. It is based on the alphabet. == Commands ==  a [object] -- pushes [object] on the stack  b [label] -- a label. can be used for comments or as a forever loop  c [label] -- jumps to b [label]  d -- pops the t
> 1760875609 501474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166283&oldid=166228 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+283) 10
> 1760876098 106060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166284&oldid=166210 5* 03Ivava 5* (+241) 10
> 1760876352 771052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166285&oldid=166284 5* 03Ivava 5* (+159) 10
> 1760876425 813790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166286&oldid=166285 5* 03Ivava 5* (+4) 10/* ideas from me */
> 1760882088 195423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166287&oldid=166280 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+766) 10
< 1760890572 307229 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1760891075 875927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166288&oldid=166237 5* 03Ais523 5* (-17441) 10clear down to 1 month of introductions
> 1760891169 561847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself/Archive (02-07-2025 to 19-09-2025)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166289 5* 03Ais523 5* (+17514) 10archive  I'm not sure why we're archiving the anti-spam feature, but given that there are existing archives we may as well continue for the time being
> 1760891247 174964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166290&oldid=166288 5* 03Ais523 5* (+126) 10archive link  do we actually need these on the page?
> 1760894429 168362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Calvizx 5*  10New user account
< 1760896382 308342 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1760896917 798889 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1760898694 11063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166291&oldid=166286 5* 03Ivava 5* (+844) 10/*A little ABSOLUTELY USELESS text about me */
< 1760898949 935419 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Wube managed to hide two esoteric domain-specific sublanguages in Factorio 2. one is Factorio 2 combinators, which are much more powerful than (and a strict superset of) Factorio 1.1 combinators. the other is much more obscure, the engine has a way to evaluate certain expressions on 32-bit integers, which is exposed in several places where the game has a numeric input field. usually you can only use 
< 1760898955 947091 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :integer literals (decimal or hexadecimal) and a particularly annoying set of ten operators. but in parametrized blueprints, you can in addition use named variables that you can repeat multiple times, and you can make a list of statements that assign the value of an expression to a named variable, the statements are executed once in order, you can then use the results in several places where the 
< 1760898961 955923 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parameter of an entity in the blueprint needs a number. 
< 1760899187 554327 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the language reminds me to blindfolded arithmetic in that you can technically write conditionals but they make it very annoying. the ten operators are: addition (modulo 2**32), subtraction (modulo 2**32), multiplication (modulo 2**32), truncating division (on signed 32-bit integers), exponentiation (I haven't experimented with how this works), abs (on signed 32-bit input with output modulo 2**32), log2 
< 1760899193 562854 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(position of highest bit for positive integers, I'm not sure what it does for negative inputs), max, min.
< 1760899292 466605 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/concepts/MathExpression.html gives a partial documentation but doesn't tell the full syntax, eg. I don't think you can guess from that page that "944(376)" is a formula that multiplies 944 with 376, equivalent to "944*376", you probably have to experiment with the game or reverse engineer the executable to find all the rules.
< 1760899430 897198 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the expression evaluator function, together with variables, is exposed in the lua API, so you can at least test it automatically quickly without having to enter formulas in a GUI numeric field
< 1760899528 284138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat, I'll eventually have to writes some notes down about Factorio in a wiki article, don't I?
< 1760900097 840962 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, of course these aren't the only two esoteric languages in Factorio, there's all sort of emergent programmable subsets that come up when you want to build with constraints, these two are just clearly designed in
< 1760900225 450724 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I forgot the last built-in operator in the expression evaluator language: sign, which returns -1 or 0 or 1 according to the sign of its input
< 1760900323 665086 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on!
< 1760900364 695973 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's even worse than I thought, apparently the intermediates in expressions aren't even 32-bit integers, because 1/2 results in 0 but (1/2)+(1/2) results in 1
< 1760900367 701299 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what the heck
< 1760900384 85339 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so does 0.6+0.6
< 1760900419 983280 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the division isn't even an integer truncating division
< 1760900512 97485 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"510000000000/1e10" results in 51
< 1760900560 116679 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1760900575 537673 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"510000000000/100000" results in 5100000
< 1760900611 107423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: theory: they're double-precision floats but converted to 32-bit integers for display
< 1760900653 40592 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dies 1e12 result in -727379968?
< 1760900659 307036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not just for display, because the numbers can go into a circuit signal, and those are definitely 32-bit integers
< 1760900659 968316 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1760900668 787756 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, for output purposes
< 1760900679 185854 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes
< 1760900714 425521 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll have to test if the variables in parametrized blueprints can hold non-integers
< 1760900784 886051 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :MPCitH is when you read a book
< 1760900798 456517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm trying to figure out what conversion converts 1e12 to -727379968, it isn't any of the standard ones other than int64_t to int32_t but an int64_t can't store 0.5
< 1760900857 136976 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so maybe it's a two-step conversion? or maybe this is a "wrapping convert double to int32_t" operation but I don't think most languages provide those
< 1760900937 244339 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the blueprint parameter intermediate named variables can store values that aren't 32-bit integers too
< 1760900942 571172 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: what does it calculate 18014398509481987 - 18014398509481984 as?
< 1760900976 491830 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(on double-precision floats this is either 2 or 4 depending on rounding mode, on integers it's 3)
< 1760901077 489927 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: 4
< 1760901106 80293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, so doubles (also I think it's either 0 or 4 rather than either 2 or 4, I was out on the original numbers by a factor of 2)
< 1760901127 547382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on single-precision floats you would almost certainly get 0
< 1760901146 883298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the answer would be in the billions if using the one rounding mode where you don't)
< 1760901298 632601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: A fun detail is that they tried to change this behavior to clamping in 2.0.44 but ended up reverting it in 2.0.45: https://forums.factorio.com/128129
< 1760901369 184437 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :jesus
< 1760901379 290108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(something I only know about because I watched one of Anti's speedrun attempts around that time)
< 1760901404 450306 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AntiElitz, not AntiPatience)
< 1760901405 627180 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly all this makes me less inclined to play Factorio (although I probably wouldn't have done so anyway) – for a game like that I sort-of want the TCness to be an emergent property of the way the game elements work rather than being a separate layer intended for programming
< 1760901417 986977 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is also one of the reasons I dislike shapez.io)
< 1760901472 989995 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you've said that before, and I still think that the game would likely be too hard to play for normal people then
< 1760901487 690314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as an automation game at least
< 1760901510 6206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, it explains the weird rounding that b_jonas is seeing – it was probably changed from uint32_t to double internally, and then the result was manually wrapped to approximately preserve old behaviour
< 1760901555 948668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it'd make for better YouTube videos, though, which might arguably be more important
< 1760901590 930826 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: the numeric formula language doesn't even come up in normal play, that's why I hadn't been aware of any of these details until today even though one of the blog entries mentioned that they added the formula language. in particular, if you aren't using mods then this numeric formula language won't get evaluated automatically, only a finite few times when you do particular use interactions: build 
< 1760901596 936838 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a parametrized blueprint that uses formulas, which I've never done before today, and Factorio 2 has been out since 2025-09, or enter a formula to a numeric field, or queue an infinite research (their cost as a function of their level is apparently defined in this language in the modding API)
< 1760901647 764796 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: now your complaint might make sense if you are talking about the *combinator* language, which does get evaluated and is deliberately there for intermediate players to write very simple programs in, and of course some people write very complicated programs
< 1760901662 569110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess being too hard for normal people to figure out on their own could even be a feature – you could set it up something like Celeste, whose game mechanics are all available from the start but you get taught them gradually over the course of the game
< 1760901673 226912 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are of course some much better reasons why not to play factorio (it's a very addictive infinite timesink)
< 1760901706 955865 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you only get the second dash in like the sixth chapter of Celeste but sure
< 1760901724 504766 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ah right, I wasn't thinking about that
< 1760901762 227486 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some games might have Turing completeness if the grid (and numeric values, if necessary in order to indicate grid positions) can have an unlimited size.
< 1760901764 81057 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'm not enough of an esoteric programmer, but I still don't think I'll use this formula language in practice in games, except in as much as it's evaluated every time I enter a literal number to an input box
< 1760901767 284742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that some of them, the developers were initially unaware of, and got tutorials added for them when they saw speedrunners use htem
< 1760901783 856196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm another fun thing to test could be 18446744075857035264 -- is that -2147483648 or maybe -1? (-1 is what you'd get from a clamping conversion to signed 64 bits followed by a modulo 2^32 reduction)
< 1760901793 16815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and levels designed around them)
< 1760901803 381210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not just tutorials, but also a (bindable) shortcut key to do dash without holding down but then start crouching right afterwards
< 1760901831 320521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that's the one known mechanic that's intentionally never required in the game
< 1760901831 347956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> 2^64 + 2^31
< 1760901832 915937 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 18446744075857035264
< 1760901842 329467 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, the developers did add a keybinding feature to make it easier
< 1760901880 670723 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: 2147483647
< 1760901907 50296 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, a third option, fun
< 1760901928 268035 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and one that doesn't make immediate sense to me
< 1760901946 537588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"if the number is outside the int64_t range, clamp to int32_t" is possible behaviour
< 1760901960 893759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially given that it was clamped to int32_t at some point in history
< 1760901967 271074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, it's clamping, but why is it clamping in this case when it reduces modulo 2^32 for smaller values...
< 1760901974 755437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, maybe
< 1760902023 621931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe it's not even the whole 64 bit range but some other cut-off
< 1760902038 14205 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: some of the developers sometimes answer questions online, in the Factorio forums or on Discord, so if you really want to know you can try to ask them
> 1760902067 672720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Brain:D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166292&oldid=114296 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+497) 10
< 1760902086 874061 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and one of them streams Factorio development on twitch too)
< 1760902107 775493 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah I'm not that desparately curious :-P
< 1760902119 719902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't even have the game.)
> 1760902222 626809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:1 Bit, an eight byte14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166293 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+195) 10created page
< 1760902248 392335 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think the formula evaluation might be partly exposed in the free demo. not in a way where you can reach the lua api, but you might technically be able to input and evaluate expressions with literals only manually in the GUI.
> 1760902267 591727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Woosh14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166294 5* 03Corbin 5* (+385) 10Stub for an independent invention of executables-as-methods.
< 1760902344 330582 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm… now I want to download a new version of the free demo and test how much is exposed about circuit wires or blueprints
< 1760902455 362694 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also technically the headless (no GUI) server that is free to download should expose the lua api
< 1760902483 43456 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you might not be easily able to set that up without having a copy of the GUI, I don't know
> 1760902528 159002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smalltix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166295 5* 03Corbin 5* (+710) 10Stub for a language that is probably going to eat my brain. I will explain the core concept in a separate page.
< 1760902787 776721 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would like to propose that we get rid of [[Object-oriented paradigm]] on the basis that we also have [[Category:Object-oriented paradigm]]. Alternatively, I would like to propose that categories not have any prose in them. I don't want to have two different pages that both explain OOP.
< 1760903066 916333 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Well it's only one sentence on the category page, that's comparable to how it's done for "Computational class" and "Turing-complete".
< 1760903181 397731 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Yeah, but I wrote a big blurb at [[Category:Functional paradigm]] and now I'm wondering where that sort of blurb should go.
< 1760903266 300603 :somelauw!~somelauw@host-be.cgnat-f.v4.dfn.nl JOIN #esolangs * :somelauw
< 1760903268 108940 :somelauw!~somelauw@host-be.cgnat-f.v4.dfn.nl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760903292 902018 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah based on this tiny sample I feel that it should be in the main namespace instead.
< 1760903376 191814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the wiki search searches only the main namespace by default, so if we have interesting things to say about object-oriented programming then it's probably better to put them into the main namespace article. categories can have description not to explain what object-oriented programming is, but to explain what the category means and what we put in it, since that needn't be unambiguous from the 
< 1760903382 500589 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :category name.
< 1760903399 796443 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e, b_jonas: Okay. I'll do it later; right now I need lunch. I appreciate the guidance.
< 1760903434 653782 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: probably wait at least a short time in case ais523 or fizzie have feedback
< 1760903569 656257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1760903582 860536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
< 1760903632 2125 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/2025-09/2024-09/
< 1760903700 716566 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually the release date is s/202[45]-09/2024-10-21/
< 1760904075 709494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I prefer paradigm descriptions to be in the main namespace than on the category description page
< 1760904089 381146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, the category description page should be limited to saying what goes in the category, rather than explaining it
< 1760904118 289273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also common on many wikis for the mainspace page that's about the same thing that the category is in to be placed into the category, but intentionally missorted
< 1760904124 297541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so that it comes first
< 1760904154 888534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people normally use a sort key of * for that, but on Esolang we may have to use ! (the alphabetically first sort key) because there are so many weirdly named pages
< 1760904163 546840 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, let's do that, that gives me more excuse to put non-languages into certain categories of mostly languages
< 1760904234 133407 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the syntax is, e.g., [[Category:Functional paradigm|!]])
< 1760905083 588441 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1760906006 459323 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ok, so you can actually make circuit wires or parametrized blueprints in the demo, even from just the built-in tutorial. (if you load a save that you modified with the full game then you can do more, including launch a rocket or cheat in other ways.) 
< 1760906078 838702 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :get to the second level of the tutorial, use the alt+R hotkey to pull up the red circuit wire tool (this is exposed in settings->controls so you don't need the full game to guess), connect the preexisting burner inserter to a piece of belt, then you can set an enable circuit condition on the inserter or the belt, and if that includes a numeric constant, then you can make a blueprint of them and 
< 1760906084 845956 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :parametrize it
< 1760906104 283547 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the demo basically includes all of the vanilla game, probably so that they can add any menu simulations in it.
< 1760906143 667256 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the built-in tutorial locks your research and doesn't give you oil and only a few specific oil products are on the map, so without loading a savefile that you can't create in the demo you can't progress very far,
< 1760906154 451178 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the functionality is all there in the demo, it's just slightly locked away.
< 1760906222 62235 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the graphics is there by the way
< 1760906454 630969 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm just saying this as a curiosity, not because I expect int-e to start playing with the demo, to be clear. don't play the demo unless you have no dependent children and lots of free time. 
< 1760907814 99237 :Kokice!~Kokice@31.147.227.21 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Kokice
< 1760907844 781772 :Kokice!~Kokice@31.147.227.21 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is esolangs.org down for everyone or is it just me?
< 1760907879 411722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just slow
< 1760907880 716793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kokice: it's been slow today – probably another AI-bot attack
< 1760907928 363679 :Kokice!~Kokice@31.147.227.21 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, thanks!
< 1760907935 142548 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :10-20 seconds of waiting usually seems to be enough to load pages atm
< 1760907978 619709 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do yearn for the times when the wiki was responsive.
< 1760908016 96773 :Kokice!~Kokice@31.147.227.21 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Odd, I'm getting "Connection reset by peer" instead of no response.
> 1760908036 56484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166296 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1210) 10Created page with "F Calculus is a Combinatory logic system with as only combinator 'F' It was devised to see how simple a Combinator could be when it has to both access an oracle and do logic. it is also inspired by SE calculus  == Description ==: F i => if i has a beta norma
> 1760908054 920848 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166297&oldid=166296 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-1) 10Fix
< 1760908358 410232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that means that something involved with the connection (other than your computer) reset it
< 1760908361 529747 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe your ISP gave up waiting?
< 1760908362 557314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, I guess it's conceivable that some researcher on CARNet had an aggressive crawler and got the whole range block?
< 1760908373 668721 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*blocked
< 1760908400 164692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*if* the problem is on the wiki end of things I mean.
< 1760908408 748613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've had good luck in the past trying again immediately after a connection-reset-to-peer (but I haven't seen that specific error in ages, so don't have recent experience)
< 1760908419 71779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, connection-reset-by-peer
< 1760908437 775403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's more commonly seen on IRC than it is on HTTP, although it can happen in both places
> 1760909512 194427 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166298&oldid=166297 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+47) 10
< 1760909580 287962 :Kokice!~Kokice@31.147.227.21 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1760909595 600020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166299&oldid=166298 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+4) 10
> 1760909633 726738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166300&oldid=166299 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+9) 10
> 1760909658 825320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166301&oldid=166300 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+4) 10
< 1760910503 831967 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ugh.
< 1760910647 584477 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :This scraping thing is just ridiculous.
< 1760910694 676555 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Although it's dropped back down to "only" 80% CPU load (from being pegged at 100%) just 10 minutes ago, so maybe it's okayish again.
< 1760910713 389769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, I fear it isn't plausibly going to stop, even if there's no market for the scraped pages (which there probably won't be in a bit – the pages that require a lot of effort to scrape also tend to be the least useful)
< 1760910762 675994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's like email spam – the scrapers have found a setup that occasionally makes money and costs them almost nothing
< 1760910780 59585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the cost of the entire Internet having to deal with it
< 1760911524 594918 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll probably need to do either the Anubis thing or a logged-in-only thing for "expensive" pages (diffs, maybe history of gigantic pages), but I won't get the chance until at the earliest next weekend.
< 1760912014 282248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if some of the scrapers started being able to beat Anbuis – it might be becoming widespread enough
< 1760912087 137276 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :beating spambots and scrapers is one of the few fields where security through obscurity actually work well, e.g. the wiki used to have massive spambot issues before the "Introduce yourself" thing was added and then spam rates dropped to effectively 0
< 1760912118 65958 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've temporarily turned off hack.esolangs.org/repo, because it's really more of a nice-to-have, and seemed to be responsible for most of the load (at least in terms of qps: it's getting 15, compared to 5 for the wiki).
< 1760912125 291053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my suspicion is that the spammers were using human CAPTCHA-solvers but they were only integrated with the create account page, so having a step after account creation completely broke the spambot framework)
< 1760912869 383346 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another bad part is that if useful websites can't keep up with spammers' queries then that incentivizes me to scrape the whole website quickly before it disappears, but from everyone else's point of view that makes me hard to distinguish from the spammers who send too many queries
< 1760912899 758646 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now for the esowiki in particular I can download the dump and the monthly chat logs, but for many other websites it's not that easy
< 1760913109 530078 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
< 1760913339 47892 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5da6:eb72:7bdc:37c8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760913396 928479 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760913623 782698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: using an honest useragent normally makes it fairly easy to tell you apart from malicious scrapers
< 1760913677 199499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's an anti-scraping toolkit that works by looking at the user-agent and checking to see whether the other headers match those which would be sent by the browser and version that it's claiming to be
< 1760913705 199648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things that vaguely resemble real user-agents get blocked, things that are nothing alike get permitted because those are normally well-behaved scrapers
< 1760913724 263150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm, have I mentioned here how much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Windows_usage_share is amusing me? (This connects to honest User-Agents, I believe.)
< 1760913726 398323 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and things that exactly match real browser user-agents check the other headers)
< 1760913768 480142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't remember seeing that, but yes, windows 7 being the most-used version of Windows is implausible
< 1760913803 268627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the amusing thing is that up to about six months ago the Windows 7 number was at about 3%... probably a tad inflated, but not completely out of the realm of possibility)
< 1760913817 703418 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :six weeks I mean
< 1760913829 696850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I started out with "a month")
< 1760913853 126637 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be worth mentioning that the methodology is probably wrong, somewhere
< 1760913886 178920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It does, it says "according to StatCounter" ;-)
< 1760913972 519869 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(mostly meme-ing, but it does indicate that the source is web traffic analysis, and apart from User-Agent headers, what do you really see...)
< 1760913996 48 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but that too mostly applies more to esolangs than to some other websites where people look less at the details of headers of random queries
< 1760914027 189853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but most people reading articles giving those figures are unlikely to make the connection
< 1760914048 419581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Also, if you actually follow that wiki link, you'll find "[...] the numbers in the statistics can not be considered to be representative samples."
< 1760914049 456302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the current situation with scraperbots is known to most people who host websites – but most people don't host websites, so they would be unaware
< 1760914088 459831 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I agree that it could be made more obvious :)
< 1760914265 180758 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Steam's hardware survey says 0.07%, but that's also biased for obvious reasons. (link: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam )
< 1760914663 324921 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the majority of actual Windows 7 will be running old domain-specific software in non-personal use, and the amount of those machines are hard to measure in any way, they won't run steam or access most of the popular services on the internet
< 1760914682 109397 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a lot of new software doesn't support Windows 7 anymore
< 1760914690 493391 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas Windows 10 is still well supported
< 1760914845 681892 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my software dayjob uses Windows 10 and Windows 11 and their Windows server equivalents. newly started projects use Windows 11 or its server version for the production machines, whereas my work laptop runs multiple Windows 10 instances, and some of the other in-house infrastructure is running Windows 10 too (some run Linux, mind you). 
< 1760914899 356087 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1760915284 551521 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760915425 481256 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1760915429 230372 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760921559 582360 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1760922878 457213 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Anubis is trivial to bypass by simply solving the challenge; the cost of Anubis is that scrapers with lots of distinct IP addresses will have to solve lots of distinct challenges.
< 1760923834 437695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think the bypass is more along the lines of "you can precompile code that solves the challenge rather than actually running the JavaScript"
< 1760923849 875824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :obviously you still have to do the calculation, but you can do it much faster than a browser can
< 1760925073 389257 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Meanwhile, legitimate browsers already try to look somewhat alike, all claiming to be the chimeric Mozilla/Chrome/Webkit/likeGecko. Perhaps they'll all claim to be Windows 7 too…)
< 1760925325 884760 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-200-068-028.002.200.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1760926134 344915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MsMissing 5*  10New user account
< 1760926172 797290 :Melvar!~melvar@dslc-082-082-054-197.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN #esolangs Melvar :melvar
> 1760926422 486211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166302&oldid=166290 5* 03MsMissing 5* (+174) 10
< 1760926521 643181 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: wait, what calculation does Anubis do that's slow in a browser? browser javascript comes with cryptographic primitives directly callable now.
< 1760926610 381618 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unrelated question. if you are writing a story about a fictional animal species, but you want it to sound more realistic and break the suspension of disbelief of the reader less, then you should say that the animal is from Madagascar or New Zealand. if you are writing a story about an esolang but want to make it sound less esoteric, eg. the original posts about Kvikkalkul, then what's the programming 
< 1760926616 389461 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :language equivalent of Madagascar?
< 1760926894 500461 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's hard to top Bancstar.
< 1760927264 208033 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Not all legitimate browsers do claim to be Mozilla or Chrome or whatever else it is, e.g. Lynx
< 1760927267 815049 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: hmm yeah, that's a good idea. possibly even better is backend mainframes for either banks or airplane tickets, the kind that are using mainframe architecture from 40 years ago and can only be updated in minor ways and takes a day to power cycle, and forces constraings like limits on length and character set of text fields to the entire industry
> 1760931814 972261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mastermind14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166303&oldid=127037 5* 03MsMissing 5* (+1) 10
> 1760932725 939365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mastermind14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166304&oldid=166303 5* 03MsMissing 5* (+156) 10Mastermind was updated
< 1760935311 279710 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1760935728 146148 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Today I played Pokemon and I used Thunder Wave on my own pokemon on the second turn, and ended up winning (and the one that was paralyzed (Clefable) never fainted nor switched out during the entire battle). (I did do that deliberately. I don't know how common it is to do things like this, but this time it helped.)
< 1760935901 521831 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1760936032 409062 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: did this involve a double battle?
< 1760936069 825716 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes.
< 1760936247 730772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1760936740 676370 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My other pokemon was Grimmsnarl with Prankster ability, and used Light Screen on the first turn, and switched out on the third turn, and then never came back in. Although some of my pokemons were damaged, the only one that actually fainted did so due to recoil damage on the last turn of the battle.)
< 1760936834 583111 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sometimes, that happens. Another time, I thought I was going to lose because I had only Butterfree and Beedrill (without mega-evolution; I think usually they do but in this case it had Bug Gem instead) left and opponent had four pokemons, and I ended up winning anyways. Other times, it seems that I would win, and then I ended up losing instead.)
< 1760936884 461446 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(You should know what to save for later, and sometimes will do it wrong especially if there is no team preview, then it makes it more difficult to know what you might need later.)
> 1760940139 253578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166305&oldid=166272 5* 03Intiha 5* (+72) 10
< 1760944547 563467 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1760945333 944853 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1760947208 619210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MsMissing/common.css14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166306 5* 03MsMissing 5* (+28) 10Created page with "code {   overflow-x: auto; }"
> 1760947404 629269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:MsMissing/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166307&oldid=166306 5* 03MsMissing 5* (+2) 10
> 1760952303 798078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166308&oldid=152341 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+156) 10
> 1760952639 470505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166309&oldid=166308 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10/* Sub-words */
> 1760952787 306972 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07TESTLANG14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166310&oldid=166309 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-64) 10/* Hello, world! */
< 1760958995 124332 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1760959314 8023 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760959930 62355 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760960214 313648 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1760960226 622316 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1760960305 678413 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1760962016 334598 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1760963411 387235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166311&oldid=166301 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+39) 10
> 1760963528 698559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166312&oldid=166277 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+17) 10addeed muh new language
< 1760963856 787496 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760964361 294961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$Lang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166313 5* 03Intiha 5* (+3564) 10Created page with "Note: Not to be confused with the word "Slang"  == Overview == Dollarlang (or $Lang) is a minimalistic esoteric programming language by [[User:Intiha]] where programs consist entirely of `$` symbols and the `#$#` sequence. It is intentionally verbose: each ASCII character 
> 1760964521 610632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$Lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166314&oldid=166313 5* 03Intiha 5* (+7) 10
> 1760964710 994908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$Lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166315&oldid=166314 5* 03Intiha 5* (+17) 10
> 1760965662 474889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$Lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166316&oldid=166315 5* 03Intiha 5* (+91) 10
> 1760966695 428606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166317&oldid=166311 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+124) 10
< 1760968610 439096 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1760968832 513526 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760970902 578002 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760971513 897553 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
> 1760972692 969709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:SE calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166318 5* 03Corbin 5* (+102) 10Created page with "E is not a combinator. ~~~~"
> 1760972706 126668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:F calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166319 5* 03Corbin 5* (+102) 10Created page with "F is not a combinator. ~~~~"
< 1760972754 446193 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760972860 374692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07$Lang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166320&oldid=166316 5* 03Corbin 5* (+44) 10Yet another output-only encoding.
> 1760973526 482191 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SKI combinator calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166321&oldid=34553 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+13) 10redirect to section
< 1760973539 100447 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1760975176 548429 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1760975704 61911 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760976565 323522 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1760979551 588287 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1760980001 548763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yes/No14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166322&oldid=166305 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-2) 10/* Notes */ 7.82 is the value in mebibytes, not megabytes (MiB vs MB)
< 1760980781 511203 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1760981471 594797 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1760981627 67952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Settheorysucksandassuchisgreatforesolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166323&oldid=165193 5* 03 5* (+66) 10
< 1760983217 601169 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, I've now written a small amount of Execline. Before, I'd only written a tiny amount. This is *so much better* than POSIX shell scripting! It seems like the *only* thing I can't do is a stateful while-loop, but otherwise it's a very lightweight way to wire up some commands in a pipe with some basic conditionals.
> 1760983978 380528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166324&oldid=166291 5* 03Ivava 5* (+529) 10
> 1760984069 103535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166325&oldid=153000 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-50) 10/* Commands */
> 1760984091 748301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166326&oldid=166325 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-400) 10/* Errors */
< 1760984227 975472 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
> 1760984290 860531 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166327&oldid=166326 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-97) 10
< 1760984485 980600 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
> 1760984797 6381 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07How dare you fuck the brain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166328&oldid=164659 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+186) 10
> 1760986245 950835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yoktoki14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166329 5* 03Ivava 5* (+2388) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  '''Yoktoki''' is an esoteric programming language developed for specialized cyber-related applications. The language was created by a school student known online as Ivava ([[User:Ivava]]), who designed it with the intention of providing a simple yet flexible tool
< 1760986698 935860 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a small design problem with Enchain, the esolang that I'm trying to design. So I want Enchain values have types known at compile-time. But I want to keep the type system as simple as possible so that the language is easier to write a compiler for, so I would really prefer if there were no derived types (eg. no type constructors with arguments) and no implicit conversions between types. now I want 
< 1760986705 343569 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to have very simple dynamically allocated array of integer types, where you can calloc an array of a size of your choice, or free it, or index into it, or index assign into it. I'd probably have arrays of int32, arrays of int8, and possibly arrays of int16 that work this way. that's three separate types and I'm fine with that much. but I'd also like to have array literals, which are constant arrays 
< 1760986711 425901 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :initialized from numbers listed in the source code, as decimal or hexadecimal numbers or, in the case of int8 arrays, initializing from literal strings should also be possible. but now I have a choice between three designs, neither perfect. (1) literal arrays are the same type as dynamically allocated arrays. but I want literals to be read-only, and this wouldn't let me check that constraint at 
< 1760986717 355898 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compile-time, so either writing literals would be UB or I'd need a slightly more complex runtime check every time you indexed assign into an array. (2) literal arrays are a separate type, array indexing and a bunch of other functions (fwrite, memcpy) are each duplicated, one version takes a literal array, the other a dynamically allocated array. I might add a special type of string literal that can only 
< 1760986723 363056 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :puts itself as a shortcut. (3) there are three types: literal array, dynamically allocated array, and read-only array. the first two can be explicitly converted to the third. but now you need to write an explicit conversion whenever you want to index into an array (even if you can move it out from a loop).
> 1760986778 133493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166330&oldid=166057 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-169) 10/* programming languages */
> 1760988362 508058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Ivava 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Yoktoki esolang image (20.10.2025).jpg10]]"
> 1760988415 156300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166332&oldid=166324 5* 03Ivava 5* (+16) 10/* Esolangs list */
< 1760988479 113118 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760988943 133894 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760988955 110350 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760989425 103257 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1760989506 118061 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760990004 720303 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760990107 123478 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1760990126 824830 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1760990725 493091 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1760991193 102716 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1760992967 599651 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
> 1760993549 227836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yoktoki14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166333&oldid=166329 5* 03Ivava 5* (+2061) 10
< 1760997815 615905 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:242b:79a0:e1f9:7ea5 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1760999185 504927 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761001511 369855 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esolang idea: Standardized programming language to be used for educational material for decades, but no I/O in the standard.
< 1761001597 969620 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Does being used for educational purposes disqualify a language from being esoteric? Brainfuck arguably can be used to teach about Turing completeness)
< 1761001637 992850 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is lack of I/O the most esoteric thing about Algol-60?
< 1761001678 688279 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does inventing something that would be used by most later languages count as esoteric? Strange at the time, standard now?
< 1761004191 800687 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1761007097 779672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Functional paradigm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166334 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1821) 10"Moving" a category page to main namespace, per IRC discussion.
> 1761007117 352593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:Functional paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166335&oldid=162713 5* 03Corbin 5* (-1795) 10Fork to [[functional paradigm]] to put content in main namespace, per IRC discussion.
< 1761007219 661295 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: I'd say yes to all of that.
> 1761009282 490927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smalltix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166336&oldid=166295 5* 03Corbin 5* (+388) 10Document the core of the correspondence between Smalltalk and Unix. This is technically a surjection rather than an isomorphism but we will paper over that.
< 1761010079 855878 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: nql compiler works for me with python 3.12.11 and pyparsing 3.2.3?  is the patch something specifically required by your harness, or is there still something weird with my setup?
< 1761010140 33472 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think i've figured out how ajwade's variable length PC works well enough to try it
< 1761012774 824934 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Probably my harness. Nix says that I'm also on CPython 3.12.11 with pyparsing 3.2.3. Perhaps order of imports is important? I import framework, nqlast, nqlgrammar in that order.
< 1761012826 97689 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Although I've just tried rebuilding the entire BB Gauge with your repository as upstream and the 8yr commit as the target revision, and everything appears to work. So perhaps my commit's not needed.
< 1761013936 486705 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761013973 649709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: quite a few of the languages I was working with during my PhD were call-by-name and Algol-based, so I used an actual Algol 60 implementation to test some of the programs (by translating them)
< 1761014032 90874 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the non-fixed syntax looks pretty esoteric to modern eyes – at the time, each implementation was expected to come up with its own syntax and the syntax used in the specification was designed for typesetting, not programming in
< 1761014047 362708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :did Algol 60 also allow spaces in identifiers? or was that just Algol 68?
< 1761014084 962071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(incidentally, Algol-68 does have I/O but it looks very esoteric to modern eyes)
< 1761014458 345418 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How is the I/O of Algol-68? Is there a program to convert the syntax for programming to the syntax for typesetting? (I think WEB does something similar, but different)
< 1761014661 643052 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :For Algol 60, iiuc different computers had different programming syntaxes. Some put keywords in quotes (e.g. 'BEGIN'), some capitalized
< 1761014671 99244 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: doesn't the non-fixed syntax mean only that keywords can be represented as single symbols or short combinations or full words depending on how capable your input devices (eg. card reader) are, since Algol may be running from five-bit telegraph with two shift modes and only like 55 usable characters, or an EBCDIC card reader that can recognize 256 characters that you can each punch by 
< 1761014677 105062 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :backspacing, etc?
< 1761014728 214410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC is kind of like this too: on some microcomputers you can type BASIC keywords from letters, on others you can only enter them as a single shifted keyboard symbol that's only shown on screen as letters
< 1761014745 714824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but also keywords and variable names could be the same and so implementations needed a way to disambiguate (in the Algol 68 specification, this was done using different fonts)
< 1761014751 37928 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen that before
< 1761014784 237482 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and when you don't have every printer standardized on being able to print most of ASCII then it would be silly to say that some symbol must be represented as exactly a left square bracket, another as a yen sign etc, just use whatever your printer can show
< 1761014872 676657 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: makes sense, that means you can even have versions with built-ins represented in different natural languages, like Excel or LOGO. you could even use a terminal that doesn't have latin letters.
< 1761014894 431583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm trying to remember how Algol 68's I/O works
< 1761014903 97263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think all the files had to be opened before the program starts, although I'm not 100% sure
< 1761014967 789605 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have I complained lately about how hard it is to find on the internet sources that are written in English and list *all* the Russian abbreviations for SI units and prefixes?
< 1761014988 68909 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesn't someone have a complete table somewhere? is it really that hard?
< 1761015005 244266 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are you supposed to learn them only from printed university textbooks for engineers or something?
< 1761015023 922775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, apparently ECMA 6 (which later became ISO 646) was first published in 1965
< 1761015030 802662 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if you only list the russian abbreviation for kilogram, not for gram, then you're doing it wrong
< 1761015046 33897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Algol 60 couldn't have used it, and although Algol 68 could have done, there wasn't time for it to have "won" yet
< 1761015057 545635 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah
< 1761015067 752292 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even if ASCII exists doesn't mean all computers are using it
< 1761015092 423944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ECMA 6 isn't exactly ASCII, it's a precursor to it
< 1761015116 110600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's what C was designed against, which is why C has trigraphs (they make it possible to type the ASCII characters that C uses that aren't guaranteed by ECMA 6)
< 1761015532 268032 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: It's a bit hard to avoid IO creeping into your standard after systems started widely adopting, well, stdio.
< 1761015670 169300 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you might want to look at systems that still don't have that. Such as Ecmascript! It looks like the console object isn't actually in the standard. https://tc39.es/ecma262/#sec-ecmascript-standard-built-in-objects
< 1761015776 176280 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :JavaScript does have built-in date/time and random numbers though, which means that it still has some I/O, although console.log is not a core function it is common among multiple implementations (console.log with a single argument which must be a string, might be the most portable way to do output in JavaScript, and if it doesn't have it, it is easy to add it)
< 1761015799 889939 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some people do not consider date/time and random numbers to be I/O, but to me, I consider that it is.)
< 1761016134 436958 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: which is why C++ overreacted and went the opposite way. iostreams was basically the first part of C++ that got (at least unofficially) standardized between different implementations, with both the language and the standard library changing a lot since, and the weirdest part of the language were designed specifically to serve iostreams – have you ever seen virtual inheritence used in C++ for 
< 1761016140 445924 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anything other than implementing the classes of iostreams such that basic_stream can inherit from both basic_istream and basic_ostream but only have one copy of ios and one format flag?
< 1761016158 222301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember, at a previous job, having to explain why a program was producing progress output to the terminal in 4KiB chunks rather than immediately (libc buffering), and then having to explain why libc was involved even though the program was written in Haskell
< 1761016273 768731 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hate the way that on many OSes you have to go through libc to interact with the OS at all, even though it contains functions that have nothing to do with OS interaction (like strlen)
< 1761016396 436941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ooh, you had to go through fifty years of computer history with that one. I recently learned that the officially documented API of the Commodore 64 kernal ROM has unix-like file description abstractions in it, where you can open numbered file descriptors that can correspond to either the screen or tape or floppy disk and then you're supposed to write them with a system call for *every byte*, 
< 1761016402 444806 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though this is such a silly design that the designers should really have expected that no sane program will use it
< 1761016457 780597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is surprising how silly many API designs end up
< 1761016485 536918 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the whole CP/M thing where there's a standardized operating system interface (without unix-like file descriptors and with files read/writable only in fixed-sized blocks and no byte-granular size) without shared language or CPU
< 1761016504 621199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CPUID is one of my pet hates – in order to use it you first have to use CPUID request 0, which gives you a value for the highest CPUID request you can use – higher requests are undefined behaviour, lower requests might or might not be implemented, but return all-bits-zero if not implemented
< 1761016537 543268 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also did not like that you have to go through libc; my own design is deliberately design that you do not have to use libc (which, in my system, lacks the functions for interacting with the OS anyways) to interact with the OS. (Also, you cannot necessarily interact with the I/O anyways; you can interact with capabilities.)
< 1761016544 896267 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: this one is actually less silly than it seems at first, one character at a time does make more sense than it seems at first with how the floppy drive and tape works
< 1761016547 640444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would have made so much more sense to say "unimplemented requests return all-bits-zero" so that using request 0 wasn't mandatory, you just make the request you want (because you have to check for the all-bits-zero case anyway)
< 1761016564 223400 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, I do not like CPUID either, so my own design would be one that does not have such a thing, at least for application mode.)
< 1761016582 910237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only logical reason I can see for the CPUID design is so that Intel can fill your ebx, ecx and edx registers with advertising
< 1761016589 759348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it actually does that, while it returns the result in eax)
< 1761016601 636601 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And that about CPUID is not very good either)
< 1761016631 725017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, buffering output before doing the actual write call is both older than unix's unified write operating system API, and even on a typical linux it has lots of reimplementations besides libc
< 1761016636 28394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think Intel encouraged people to verify that the CPU was an Intel CPU before trusting the CPUID result (which would have the consequence of programs running non-optimised on non-Intel x86 clones) – and later actually did that themselves in icc
< 1761016670 106785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, no sensible manufacturer would create an x86 clones for which the CPUID results had different meanings than on Intel
< 1761016696 656621 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's so old that TAOCP volume 1 explains how to buffer input and output, both because you're doing IO in fixed-sized blocks and because you're using a larger ring buffer for background IO in parallel to computations
< 1761016752 803363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the funny thing is, later AMD created their own CPUID requests in the billions, to avoid any likely clashes with Intel's which were all small integers, and enough software started using them (even though it was defined by Intel as UB) that Intel had to partially implement some of them in order to prevent code running more slowly on Intel processors than it would on AMD)
< 1761016760 284297 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais5523: sure, but Intel kind of has to do that because they can't promise that every bit of their documentation will apply to all third-party CPUs made, even with how much they specifically work together with AMD to make the CPUs as compatible as reasonably possible
< 1761016781 347718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no they don't, they just say "on Intel processors, CPUID works like this"
< 1761016808 368771 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if a non-Intel processor doesn't match the documentation Intel just blames it on the manufacturer
< 1761016858 878904 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's not just CPUID, all of their documentation basically says "Intel processors work like this", so much that the architecture programming manual tells you the details of how all CPUs going back to the 8086 work and how to detect if you're running on a modern CPU rather than a 8086 in like five easy steps starting from distinguishing 8086 from 80286 etc
< 1761016943 897136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, you're supposed to start by seeing whether certain flags bits keep their value when you try to set them, I think?
< 1761016947 657858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(rather than reverting back to 0)
< 1761016966 260409 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that detects enough early CPUs that you can rule out all the ones that don't implement CPUID, and then use CPUID
< 1761017013 156273 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, the flag bit distinguishes between pentiums with or without CPUID, that's near the last step, I think there are three or four more steps before. IIRC the first is to check what push SP pushes to see if you're on a 8086 or 80286, but I forget how you test for a 80286 vs 80386, then 80386 versus later
< 1761017045 882324 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might be misremembering, I should look this up
< 1761017062 344241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, maybe INTERCAL's version test isn't so unique after all
< 1761017168 422018 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, most software nowadays doesn't support anything earlier than i686 when compiling for 32-bit x86
< 1761017183 136059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and increasing amounts of software aren't supporting 32-bit x86 at all)
< 1761017503 510312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, you were closer to right. Intel architecutre manual volume 1 chapter 20.1.2. the test between 8086 vs 80286 vs 80386 or newer is with FLAGS: top bit is always set on 8086 but always clear on others in real mode but you *can* skip that part, test the three bits below them to see if they are changable on 80386 or newer vs fixed on older (though with different values on 8086 vs 80286); 
< 1761017577 527594 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then there are two EFLAGS bits but you only really need one which indicates that CPUID is available, but of course to even access the top half of EFLGAS you need to know that you're on a 80386 or newer.
< 1761017652 971760 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's not as bad as I remembered, it's really only four tests, one to test if a bit in FLAGS can be both set and cleared and retains both, then test if a bit in EFLAGS can be both set and cleared and retains both, and if those all pass you have CPUID. unless of course you actually want compatibility with CPUs older than CPUID.
< 1761017790 67133 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though of course the later tests with CPUID are complex, because the official intel documentation doesn't promise you that SSE2 is always available in 64-bit code. mind you, that is actually *correct* from their perspective, because being able to use XMM registers requires operating system support, and even though in practice any 64-bit program can rely on that being there if they even want to use any 
< 1761017796 74303 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OS ABI, the Intel CPU manual has to describe the more general case where there needn't be a typical operating system running.
< 1761017953 32985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think at least Rust does CPUID checks along the lines of "this software was compiled for Windows, so we can assume the existence of any CPU instructions that are required by Windows"
< 1761017984 857928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which leads to weird per-OS performance increases because some OSes require newer instructions than others, making software that isn't multiversioned run faster
< 1761018338 623924 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, yes, that would lead to a consistent drawback on programs compiled for linux, because there will always be operating systems supporting parts of the linux system call ABI that run on the weirdest CPUs
< 1761018345 153201 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for any one architecture
< 1761018373 893573 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas most Windows programs these days can just check for at least Windows 10 and bail early on Windows 7 or earlier
< 1761018454 561491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I still think at least on a linux x86_64 program you can rely on SSE2 being there
< 1761018565 227292 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I wouldn't rely on it being implemented completely correctly; I should go back some day and get a qemu x86_64 guest *without acceleration* to compile and test if it indeed has a bug in what NaN values some SSE instructions return and report the bug if it's there)
< 1761018631 237491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean especially if you are linking to libc then the function call ABI requires XMM registers present
< 1761018670 506554 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if there's an fabs function, or a printf that can format doubles, then there has to be SSE instructions at least
< 1761018923 325971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, if the OS hasn't given permission to the CPU to use XMM registers, do attempts to use them actually fail? or do they succeed and just hide the CPUID bit?
< 1761018968 176543 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, even if the CPU instruction subset part is complicated, the OS ABI part turns out to be pretty simple, because most programs will, whenever they do a unix system call other than group_exit, check if it returns an error with an errno code that they don't specifically handle, and that automatically checks for old OSes not implementing any particular system call.
< 1761018971 631978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it doesn't really matter
< 1761018991 626351 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :your programs will still break if they get context-switched while using registers the OS doesn't know exist
< 1761018993 321673 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: IIRC yes, the CPU ABI is that the CPUID bit is only enabled when the operating system has explicitly enabled support for XMM registers;
< 1761019022 991403 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though that applies for XMM and YMM and ZMM only, x87/MMX registers also require OS support and I don't know how you test that
< 1761019054 211253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now you've made me wonder whether glibc actually puts ENOSYS in errno or whether it just aborts upon seeing that the OS doesn't support a system call it expected to exist
< 1761019079 946235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might plausibly depend on which system call you ask for – there are some that glibc will recognise as being conditionally supported
< 1761019139 666392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it took me a surprisingly long time to realise that the reason why MMX registers are mapped over x87 registers is so that the OS will know how to context-switch them even if it doesn't know about MMX
< 1761019193 281007 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but it's not *just* the OS, I think it's also user-space context switch or light threading libraries
< 1761019200 520914 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be logical to map mask registers over x87 for the same reason (so that programs could use masked EVEX-encoded instructions on 128-bit and 256-bit registers even if the OS didn't know about AVX-512)
< 1761019207 711592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well no, sorry, ignore that
< 1761019227 224212 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ABI basically says that MMX can't be initialized around generic function calls, the CPU is always in x87 mode
< 1761019235 198234 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a user-space library doesn't have to support MMX
< 1761019237 692601 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only the OS does
< 1761019264 938749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the ABI also doesn't let you initialise ymm registers around function calls either
< 1761019292 887419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and that's *on top* of making all the xmm registers call-clobbered)
< 1761019314 928792 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe it's specifically returns rather than calls
< 1761019317 26589 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think so, mask registers were introduced in AVX512, that's late enough that by that time the CPU architecture exposed a generic interface that operating systems can use to save all the state of a process
< 1761019363 311340 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but x87 also has enough complications that it would be very annoying if you mapped something else onto it now
< 1761019412 747477 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they're technically still in the x86_64 linux ABI for passing a long double to a function (like fabsl)
< 1761019422 138777 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or do I remember that part wrong?
< 1761019563 409359 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I just checked, long doubles as arguments are passed using stack slots, but a long double return value is returned in ST(0)
< 1761019606 439936 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ST(1) can be used in the specific case of returning a complex long double (but no other cases, e.g. a structure containing two long doubles is returned via outpointer)
< 1761019632 682699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you were almost right
< 1761019728 468415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this seems slightly illogical to me – "first long double in ST(0), rest in stack slots" would be more consistent with the rest of the ABI – but I didn't design it)
< 1761021061 697589 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Okay, let's assume that my commit is not necessary. It is meant to patch up an upstream change in pyparsing anyway; as long as everything else works, it's not relevant to our main goal.
< 1761021421 757471 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: preventing user code from writing registers the OS doesn't know about is crucial unless you want covert channels
< 1761021449 731801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I don't think Intel has a very good track record of stopping those :-(
< 1761021555 625081 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me of the trick that was used to implement rseq before it was added as a system call (you change the base of the gs segment in such a way that it looks unchanged to the OS, then if you get context-switched the OS restores gs incorrectly, and you use that to cause the last command in the rseq to fail)
< 1761021598 944434 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although that's the opposite of a covert channel, it gets incorrectly clobbered as opposed to incorrectly non-clobbered
< 1761021641 946825 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"trap on FP register access" has been a standard feature of ISAs forever because people think they want lazy FP register restoring, e.g. cr0.TS, not quite the same as OSXSAVE but
< 1761021714 195234 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had wanted to design the CPU to avoid covert channels and other problems with it, as well as some enhancements; security is one issue but there are other issues too.
< 1761021846 657122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this reminds me of when lazy FP state restore turned out to be exploitable (using speculative execution to leak other processes' FPU registers), but recent-at-the-time Linux was unaffected because they'd disabled it by default a little earlier
< 1761021865 980658 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :due to it not being useful as a performance optimisation on modern CPUs
< 1761021928 244233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect the concern was mostly not so much x87 (unlikely to hold sensitive information) as SSE (which could plausibly hold sensitive information due to being used for inline memcpys)
< 1761022005 716869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it's specific to recent-at-the-time Linux on recent-at-the-time processors, older processors were still affected because the lazy restore was considered by Linux to be faster on those
< 1761022073 819313 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's exploitable due to TS being checked too late, not due to an inherent property of the ISA
< 1761022105 208834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, as usual this happened on Intel but not AMD (AMD has had its own specific vulnerabilities but they tend to look different from the Intel-specific ones)
< 1761022105 328650 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but intel did the same thing with page permissions so
< 1761022213 756664 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the recent ARM64-specific one was even more dramatic (the CPU was speculatively reading from register values if they looked like pointers, which could be attacked by getting crypto code to create numbers that looked like pointers internally if the key had a bit in a particular place)
< 1761022227 702415 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(most of my ISA stuff is indexed on riscv since that's what I've been doing since 2016)
< 1761022301 948860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that one's less likely to be a problem on x86es for memory-ordering reasons, reads are acquire-ordered by default on x86 and so speculating on a read before the read instruction appears in the instruction stream is almost useless
< 1761022380 633206 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds like something half-remembered that's either related to value predictors or prefetching
< 1761022435 314002 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :dynamically most register values are small integers, all of which are architecturally valid pointers
< 1761022468 568692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, but "looking like a pointer" is different from being a valid pointer – it's something that you can predict on (e.g. by seeing which memory addresses are being accessed and looking for addresses that look similar)
< 1761022501 493639 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :riscv has svukte now (negative addresses are rejected in U-mode before even hitting the PTW) and A64 probably has had something similar for a while but I don't think anyone's promoted mmap_min_addr to architecture
< 1761022516 941831 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it is better to not put that many complications like that into the CPU since it can cause these kind of problems
< 1761022609 625398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, mmap_min_addr doesn't need to be architectural for security reasons, but it might potentially help for performance if you're trying to figure out what might be a pointer
< 1761022626 206135 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :discover problem caused by complexity, solve it by adding more complexity, repeat until full employment is achieved
< 1761022670 573143 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Except for those of us who've burnt out, I suppose.
< 1761022699 537187 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another way can be: Redesign most of the computer, operating system, etc. It is not only about complexity and security but also the other problems.
< 1761022741 507882 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I would like to do that but am having problems finding enough mental energy to do it
< 1761022775 408496 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, I think that even though it would be beneficial to redesign everything properly, some parts of it are more beneficial than others (i.e. less effort to change and greater benefit)
< 1761022818 50061 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would want to make a discussion group to do it. I have no name for it so far, but I do have many ideas.
< 1761022871 45115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "lowest effort to greatest benefit" to me is in the "generalised ABI", i.e. the rules for how a process can use the processor registers and do argument passing and interact with the OS
< 1761022894 941671 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that could be adopted piecemeal, one program at a time, without breaking existing systems, and yet it's an area with huge scope for changing things
< 1761022950 510290 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :like you want to simplify the x86_64 sysv calling convention?  what does that benefit, or am I taking you too literally?
< 1761022950 589024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example, it would be possible to enforce an object-capability system at that level (via static analysis of the source code or binary)
< 1761022986 649742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: the calling convention is part of it, btu actually I wanted to complicate it, the current calling convention is very rigid and it causes a lot of register spills as a consequence
< 1761022991 395018 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :For modifying existing systems, I suppose so, but I thought to do a new system; still the ABI (and perhaps those other things) would probably be one part of it though.
< 1761023022 406009 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But couldn't we have object-capability systems via static analysis already? Or is this like CHERI where the security property comes from a conjunction of correct hardware *and* correct software?
< 1761023035 465860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: we can but only within a single process
< 1761023040 798902 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although, my idea of a system has a small number of system calls (possibly only one).)
< 1761023065 245481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need an expanded ABI to allow multiple processes to send capabilities between each other (e.g. via exeec)
< 1761023066 792280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* exec
< 1761023100 512918 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that a combination of correct hardware and correct software would be a good idea. However, I think CHERI is security within a process and my idea is more about security between processes.
< 1761023123 469362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even the single-process version would be good though
< 1761023192 876225 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :CHERI works within an address space.  "Process" can get a bit fuzzy
< 1761023196 336725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I am sceptical of CHERI – I don't think it actually enforces memory safety unless you modify the software to take advantage of it
< 1761023215 225625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas working with almost unmodified software is its only real claimed advantage
< 1761023231 23619 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, to send capabilities is by passing messages between processes, including the initial message (the process won't run if the initial message contains no capabilities, unless a debugger is attached)
< 1761023267 841378 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Or we switch to unguessability. Usually a reference within a process is "unforgeable"; there's formally no tools for constructing references. But whenever we have any sort of coding, we have "unguessable" references instead. Cryptography, ASLR, etc.
< 1761023305 633019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my working example is C code like «enum user_mode { admin, user }; struct userinfo { char name[12]; enum user_mode mode; }; void set_username(struct userinfo *info, char *name) { if (strlen(name) > 12) return; strcpy(info->name, name); }
< 1761023313 141349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :»
< 1761023314 107054 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :? CHERI fails closed.  if you have C code which relies on accessing objects with pointers derived from pointers to other objects, you have to modify it in order for it to do anything on CHERI besides segfault
< 1761023314 436304 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm currently looking at Smalltix as supporting capabilities by not having the tools necessary to construct paths e.g. into the Nix store. This is yet another step on the transitional path that Nix has laid out.l
< 1761023334 961507 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :every "C but memory-safe" I've seen won't catch the bug in this code
< 1761023371 269481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(CHERI only does if you explicitly narrow the permission on the info->name projection, but doing that would break too much C code)
< 1761023416 818239 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only times you need to modify CHERI C to make it *more* secure is if you have a user-level memory allocator and you want CHERI to know about and enforce the subobject boundaries
< 1761023435 321702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't trust unguessability as a security feature at all, given how many speculative execution vulnerabilities there are
< 1761023451 216580 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: does CHERI catch the bug in the code I posted above?
< 1761023532 841880 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Um? Maybe we're talking about different stuff. Unguessability is stuff like TLS being technically insecure in the sense that a determined attacker could crack a key. Or are you thinking of like timing attacks?
< 1761023555 369122 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION distracted by kitchen

< 1761023567 533274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm mostly thinking of same-CPU covert channel attacks (which includes timing attacks)
< 1761023596 113424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the attacker can't run code on your CPU then things are safer
< 1761023606 618879 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I'll go with option 1, where trying to write a literal array has the same semantics as trying to index out of bounds into an array or use-after-free of an array. the UB or runtime check is already there because of the array indexing, so it doesn't really have extra cost to add more of it.
< 1761023617 265217 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, okay. That stuff threatens unforgeability too. In general, colocation doesn't appear like it can be safe unless we're doing hypervirt.
< 1761023620 799115 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://ctsrd-cheri.github.io/cheri-c-programming/impact/subobject-bounds.html
< 1761023653 792237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: OK, that's exactly what I thought – CHERI can't support it without code changes, but can support it with
< 1761023654 731956 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then ISTR that there's some master theorem about how your ISA has to be hypervirt-safe from the late 80s.
< 1761023662 209865 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :If your security feature is “like ASLR”, there are already a lot of attacks on that, which need not involve CPU exploits; e.g. printf("%p")
< 1761023678 124533 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://cheri-compiler-explorer.cl.cam.ac.uk/z/aKq1n7 what code changes?
< 1761023719 652987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: in that you used a compiler option that breaks too much existing code to enable by default
< 1761023737 485828 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought also that it should need a capability to be able to measure timing at all. That also partially mitigates timing attacks, although it is not the only thing to do. Applications programs are deterministic except for system calls (and if the program is suspended or terminated by something external, which it cannot detect), and there are not many system calls, so hopefully that should help.
< 1761023765 393622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: I also thought that
< 1761023797 433485 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Yes, timers have to be tamed, and it's an open problem how to best do it.
< 1761023824 367805 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm struggling to interpret this as good faith.  All of the provable, involable inter-object OCAP protections are worthless because intra-object protection fails in some cases that were never advertised?
< 1761023900 820935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: it's more "I've seen many people have a default assumption that an allocation boundary is a security boundary, and that isn't true for a substantial amount of existing C code" combined with "you need some rules for telling the compiler when a subobject boundary is supposed to be restrictive and when it isn't"
< 1761023920 761928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :programmers frequently use subobject boundaries that aren't supposed to be restrictive, and frequently use subobject boundaries that are
< 1761023923 645394 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think that redesigning the entire system is the way to do it, although it is possible that other people have other ideas.
< 1761023959 230200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't make the protections worthless because a pretty high proportion of spacial exploits are cross-allocation
< 1761023969 33475 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you're getting a pretty good mitigation percentage
< 1761023983 885984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there isn't a magic bullet to getting 100% memory safety from existing C programs
< 1761023984 351172 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: this doesn't apply to all the vulnerabilities mentioned, but it's really hard to keep a fast L1 cache, paging, SMP, large main RAM, and a fast CPU clock cycle, without also having lots of complexity that can cause vulnerabilities.
< 1761024036 395892 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yes, although some of these complexities can be avoided (and in some of the cases, they can be handled by the compiler instead)
< 1761024075 413969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(interestingly, apparently the iOS kernel has a rule of not mixing things with different security properties within a single allocation, i.e. you need to use two different allocations with one pointing to the other – that means that an allocation boundary really is a security boundary inside the iOS kernel)
< 1761024158 95579 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hehe, writing past the end with strcpy. 
< 1761024191 273637 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I wanted an example that a) is a plausible example of a bug that might occur and b) is easy for C programmers to notice as being buggy if told there's a bug there
< 1761024224 111791 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the point is compartmentalization, unaudited code can fail to be memory safe but it cannot be memory unsafe in ways that violate the security of code that _has_ been audited
< 1761024239 729207 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: ASLR isn't trying to be unguessable in the cryptographical sense, it never did. pointers don't have enough address bits for that.
< 1761024273 364502 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: OK, that's valid (although it differs from the security claims I typically see on the subject)
< 1761024319 66997 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: In Monte, the only way to get a system timer is with a top-level capability. It gives out absolute timestamps, but we called that .unsafeNow() since we were pretty sure that it's not safe. The idea is that a user might only get Timer.measureTimeTaken and nothing else. https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/typhon/objects/timers.py#L65
< 1761024334 514065 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: In a sufficiently large program it's not unguessable in any sense, since anything that prints a pointer (printf, JIT runtime, leftover debugging code) will disclose addresses immediately
< 1761024372 287198 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the past “sufficiently large program” was emacs, now it's a web browser
< 1761024425 846240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re: timing permissions, I think the ideal goal for a capability system would be "making it safe to run untrusted code" (browsers already do this!), and this raises the problem of preventing the code observing timing using network requests
< 1761024449 646620 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it could also potentially use racing loops to create a timer, but that seems easier to fix at the compiler level)
< 1761024474 562000 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: sure, that too, but I still think using cryptographically unguessable tokens for security makes sense in some cases, and is even hard to avoid in some, even if we suffer because it's undermined by virtualization putting untrusted code on the same CPU which may leak such values more easily than timing or power usage or other side channels
< 1761024563 436204 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sadly making it impossible to observe time and use it as a side channel is basically impossible in most practical settings. all settings where you want reasonable performance at the very least, and often even if you're fine with low performance.
< 1761024566 368478 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Networking's also a top-level capability (like a half-dozen fine-grained caps, actually) in Monte, and networking doesn't come with timing information by default. So it'd have to be a situation where you're permitted to call out to arbitrary webhooks to begin with, rather than a predefined situation.
< 1761024568 341275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been thinking about ASLR a lot, I think too much ASLR is actually a net disbenefit to security (because it prevents you hardcoding pointers and the code that would otherwise hardcode pointers has to do something else)
< 1761024570 93924 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :complexity rebalances in large systems.  a big increase in µarch and compiler complexity saves a few % on time and energy, which means you get to make and install fewer chips and smaller power systems
< 1761024571 151742 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I suppose it is one way to do it, and I would probably have the kernel to have a somewhat similar function; many application programs might use proxy capabilities, if they require any timing at all (for example, it is useful for many kind of programs to have the current date/time, but many (probably most) programs shouldn't need it)
< 1761024595 885596 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm mostly thinking of the "script on web page" situation – those are expected to be able to make network requests
< 1761024616 689777 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: pledge() is another cool approach. There's nothing wrong with having the time available in the VDSO; the problem comes from the assumption that any code in the process is allowed to touch the VDSO.
< 1761024635 511984 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not sure, we are using dynamic linkers anyway to share libraries between processes, and they have to do relocation, and our dynamic linkers are robust enough, so why would ASLR make this worse?
< 1761024646 362310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the problem is not just the vDSO, but the RDTSC processor instruciton
< 1761024677 326299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. Always worth remembering that E's authors were not able to fully rewrite ECMAScript to be cap-safe; ECMAScript is a big success story but it's still world-exposed.
< 1761024684 923894 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ASLR may still be a bad idea, but I don't think your argument proves that
< 1761024691 502299 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, I also see the dynamic linker as a problem – I think it allows too much
< 1761024697 333652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure what the correct amount is
< 1761024706 737978 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ASLR was a big step back when the state of the art in attacks was return-to-libc (overflow a stack buffer and overwrite the return address with a pointer to system())
< 1761024717 424220 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My own way is entirely involving capabilities, and would be a new instruction set too (so that there is no RDTSC, or at least, if there is, only the kernel is allowed to use it).
< 1761024729 193598 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: even if the dynamic linker is allowed to load anything only when the process is starting, before it executes user code?
< 1761024753 768651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. We generally assume that a cap-safe environment must have "safe code loading", like e.g. JVM's bytecode verifier, to prove that the loaded code is not going to attempt any obvious wrongness. A code loader is safe when it respects isolation and confinement.
< 1761024754 816939 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :arm and riscv both have no timer unconditionally exposed to user code
< 1761024759 641444 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do not want to use VDSO or whatever like that; when a program receives a capability, it might be a proxy capability, and a proxy capability can work like any other capabilities.
< 1761024761 339745 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I certainly see why dynamic linker invoked at runtime allows too much, but I like dynamic linker at startup time
< 1761024762 61423 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :scounteren.TM
< 1761024763 151766 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose that this implies that the ISA itself must be tamed!
< 1761024777 853880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: one reasonable middle-ground would be what you suggest, but current dynamic linkers allow for the possibility of libraries loading at runtime and doing relocations both ways
< 1761024827 460636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: IIRC one of RDTSC and RDRAND has a way to disable it from the kernel and the other doesn't
< 1761024866 238263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, right! one of my big realisations was you can prove that a program or portion of one doesn't receive via any side channel or covert channel via proving that it is deterministic
< 1761024878 832480 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the original riscv linux uABI guaranteed that user code _could_ access the cycle counter, was messily broken a couple years ago to dubious security benefit (if you have multithreading, you can estimate times by engineering a race, and noisy times can always be improved with statistics)
< 1761024879 632083 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: certainly, but it's not like we can stop that because that function of the dynamic linker can be implemented completely in user-space by opening files with arbitrary filenames and mmap, and in contexts where you restrict those operations, you shouldn't allow invoking the dynamic linker either. now admittedly something like allowing to run untrusted code that can invoke the dynamic linker *is* a 
< 1761024884 597653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although this doesn't prevent it sending or forwarding via a side channel or covert channel
< 1761024885 856971 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bad idea even if people do it in practice in some high-level languages.
< 1761024908 600000 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It is also one of my reasons for making it deterministic (by designing the instruction set and operating system in such a way)
< 1761024946 25812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: this would presumably be used in an environment where you need a capability to create new executable mappings
< 1761024975 217513 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, there's no way that we would let the untrusted user submit ISA-specific instructions! Google tried that with Native Client, creating the amazing situation where exploits break through three distinct sandboxes like Tai Lung leaping out of prison at the beginning of Kung Fu Panda. No, we must JIT instead. That's why WASM and Monte do it, and why E had to become a distinct language from Java, Alice from ML, etc.
< 1761024982 31042 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :deterministic concurrency would be an interesting security feature, but it doesn't help when mallory is doing RPCs and timing them on _her_ end
< 1761025027 346143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: yep, that's why I a) mentioned forwarding via a side channel and b) was worried about how to timing-sandbox network requests
< 1761025090 62478 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The tradeoff is something called a "spellserver". The user gives the spellserver a (cryptographic) cap and it executes (native) code on the user's behalf. The user isn't allowed to choose the code, but they are allowed to pass in other caps as arguments and delegate authority, so the spellserver can act on the user's behalf while doing optimized/privileged things.'
< 1761025111 450470 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :native client checks every instruction in the image against an allowlist and ensures that no instructions not in the image can be executed without going through the validator again.  I don't see how "ISA-specific" makes this any worse than  JIT
< 1761025129 136566 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some cases, you can add extra delays where needed (e.g. a proxy capability might do this; my idea is that delay is one of the proxies included in CAQL)
< 1761025144 977709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I hadn't heard the name "spellserver" before, but understand the concept
< 1761025158 109074 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think one of the main difficulties is that even if you go most of the way to run untrusted code in a deterministic way and not allow it much IO capabilities, in the end you have to put some kind of timeout on it to stop it if it takes too much time, and that will be observable. but if you want any sort of performance (like in a Browser) then untrusted code can deliberately do things where 
< 1761025164 119142 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :timing can easily vary by a factor of hundred or thousand in a way that's very hard to prevent. so either you do some deterministic cycle counting but then your timeout will be vague by a factor of a hundred or thousand, or code will be able to observe timing.
< 1761025190 603577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, I agree that this is a main difficulty
< 1761025202 146085 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :A proxy capability can also lie about the amount of time that has elapsed (this does not prevent external timing measurement, but can prevent internal ones)
< 1761025222 928119 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could go along the lines of "you have to prove your program will execute within X seconds or it doesn't get run" but that would require some really worst-case timing estimates
< 1761025232 478169 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: The trick is to not sandbox at all. Instead of starting with a powerful encoding and trying to limit its behavior (taming), we start with weak primitives and add specific preselected behaviors for which we case-by-case prove safety. This means that the user does not have perfect control over what the CPU executes, but we already know that that control is exploitable, so we shouldn't offer it.
< 1761025272 197536 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: fwiw I consider that to be a type of sandbox, too (but agree that it's massively preferable to the taming approach)
< 1761025277 535478 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :nacl doesn't start off with a powerful encoding, it starts off with no allowed instructions and adds them one at a time
< 1761025319 871641 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: That is what I thought too. Usually this is by the use of a VM code, although I think a CPU could also be designed to help with it (in cooperation with the operating system kernel), although existing CPUs and operating systems are not that way
< 1761025373 225692 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The ISA is an encoding of behaviors.
< 1761025390 639813 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFAIK, preventing information leakage and covert channels is much harder than preventing tampering. (This is also why unforgeable caps are better than unguessable.) In practice you want to share as little as possible, with air gaps or data diodes (yes, physical ones)
< 1761025452 973350 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's reasonable to want a microarchitecture that prevents the latter, but the former is a lost cause
< 1761025455 371252 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also think that unforgeable is better than unguessable. Within one computer, I think it could work.
< 1761025489 703617 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :With a language and CPU that work together, unforgeability can extend as far as the ports of a single motherboard. That's a pretty impressive integration!
< 1761025506 496659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm a bit internally conflicted because it's clear to me that at least on present CPUs, a sophisticated attacker who can run arbitrary sandboxed code almost certainly has an arbitrary read primitive available – but most of our security depends on keys and passwords which are not safe in that threat model
< 1761025524 45755 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they got bored with nacl, dropped it, and are now adding LFI which as far as I can tell is exactly the same
< 1761025554 516864 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, assuming we trust the memory controller. E trusts iteratees and iterators and collections to be correctly implemented; Monte doesn't, or at least Monte assumes that remote computers can have incorrectly-implemented collections that iterate wrongly.
< 1761025574 745515 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My idea is the operating system kernel and CPU to work together to do that; programming languages (e.g. a C compiler) might not (and does not need to know about the specific implementation, although of course the instruction set and system call interface would need to be known)
< 1761025579 345780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a few contexts where we can afford the potentially huge performance hit, but most contexts where we want to run untrusted code aren't like that. so it's probably worth to pursue both routes: the apparently harder one of defining entirely new architectures without the traditional L1 cache where there are fewer timing differences – useful anyway for proven real-time industrial control 
< 1761025585 510932 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :applications so we might as well use it for something else too –, and the less hard one where we figure out how to do cryptographic operations in a way that the keys can't be leaked by timing or other side-channel attacks even to code on the same CPU, even if admittedly we have a bad track record with this.
< 1761025594 530522 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you're reminding me of the problems with mmapping files in Rust
< 1761025606 81161 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right. But, also, simply-typed lambda calculi are cap-safe by default and it's clear to me that we can offer just about any computational abilty to users within a simply-typed context. We do this to ourselves.
< 1761025627 224398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust programs frequently just do that in practice, even though it's unsound in theory (because the Rust implementation assumes that reading the same memory twice without writing it in between gives you the same value)
< 1761025648 807536 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i expect/hope we'll see a shift away from "isolation" and towards a model which distinguishes confidentiality domains from integrity domains
< 1761025658 11660 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of most people's security depends on them not being rich enough to be a target for serious attackers.
< 1761025667 223592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can work around the issue by mapping the memory as relaxed atomics rather than regular numbers, but few people actually do that
< 1761025677 32779 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :integrity is cheap, confidentiality requires complete system partitioning and/or time slicing with complete state clears
< 1761025707 955411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I assume you mean simply-typed lambda calculi with fixedpoint? not the non-TC version?
< 1761025717 743124 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Isolation's a really powerful primitive in distributed systems. Admittedly it's usually baked into spacetime and the configuration of computers in a room, but it's still useful.
< 1761025719 755722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, fixpoint
< 1761025720 76904 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are now devices like Yubikeys though, which sort of give you a segregated chip to store your keys
< 1761025725 606415 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have ideas about how to make it work with network transparency, although in that case many kind of external attacks are possible. You still cannot send or use a capability that you neither have yourself nor received from the other side, but exteral interference can still result in undesired operations with these capabilities (but encryption can mitigate this).
< 1761025772 37260 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hm, does mapping it as atomic actually remove the unsoundness, or just admit that it's there?
< 1761025790 321770 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I mean truly simply typed with no fixpoints. The sort of thing Cammy can do, by zero coincidence. TC means that the user will learn *something* about your computational substrate.
< 1761025794 43925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: it actually removes it, if you relaxed-read an atomic twice the compiler doesn't assume it'll get the same value both times
< 1761025835 497734 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difficulty with making side-channel operations hard even with untrusted code running on the same CPU is that you can only make that work if *both* CPU manufacturers and compiler writers work on it together, you can't do it with just one side or the other. 
< 1761025841 290129 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: now you have me wondering how many useful programs can be written like that (both in terms of "it is possible to write" and in terms of "a typical program can figure out how to write")
< 1761025871 265646 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This was Monte's biggest weakness IMO. In Monte, E, Joule, etc. as well as Python's Twisted or Ruby's EventMachine, there's simply no guarantee of productivity for a sent message. There's not even a guarantee of receipt or way to find out what happened in case of error. Great model for UDP but terrible for in-memory event queues.
< 1761025875 627033 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the llvm level you also have "unordered atomics" which were invented to handle Java's constrained behavior for data races
< 1761025889 113168 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that differ from relaxed?
< 1761025931 677078 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :relaxed atomics cannot be reordered if they might alias
< 1761025961 922969 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: wait, is that true?
< 1761025963 20357 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably it doesn't work very well since c++ didn't copy it
< 1761025991 806524 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, two relaxed reads to the same address must be executed in program order
< 1761026005 65771 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I still don't understand the C++ atomics model then
< 1761026062 303067 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :2016 riscv allowed load instructions to the same address to be executed in either order, so relaxed atomics needed a fence until the model was tightened (matching arm and ppc instead of alpha)
< 1761026093 324607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: relaxed doesn't require ordering between multiple threads, e.g. if thread A relaxed-reads address X then relaxed-writes address X, and thread B relaxed-reads address X then relaxed-writes a function of its value to address X, then the value thread A reads can be based on the value that thread A writes
< 1761026098 280461 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this java thing would be something more relaxed then relaxed atomics, but more strict than ais523's operation that lets you read an integer with valid but undefined result in case of a data race, because it still wouldn't allow tearing so you'd keep memory-safe pointers?
< 1761026145 706437 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68#Books,_channels_and_files
< 1761026154 443880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although this is only allowed if the value it writes doesn't depend on the value it reads – programs aren't supposed to be able to create an actual time paradox, even using relaxed atomics)
< 1761026203 389834 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :pointer tearing can't happen on any real architecture ("single-copy atomicity").  fat pointers e.g. Go are a separate issue
< 1761026251 303423 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :time paradoxes are called "out of thin air reads" and are unfortunately allowed in most memory models
< 1761026265 203889 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: in the C++ memory model they're disallowed by fiat
< 1761026272 975774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the standard says not to do them, without defining what that means
< 1761026295 913062 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do love standard requirements that don't mean anything
< 1761026315 221597 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: of course, but I think the read operation that ais523 wants would allow pointer tearing
< 1761026325 793636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I am now at this point almost convinced that the correct definition is "do not create a loop in the happens-before + semantically-depends relation" although I may have problems actually justifying it
< 1761026358 43142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm fine to allow pointer tearing because part of the rules for the operation is that if there is a race condition you don't do anything with the resulting value
< 1761026358 785419 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see why these are hard problems at least
< 1761026359 784334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* value
< 1761026370 615924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :having a torn pointer is safe as long as you never dereference it
< 1761026387 304855 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but are you allowed to use the torn value as an integer?
< 1761026400 840798 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or do you have to check before you're even allowed to do arithmetic or conditionals on it?
< 1761026405 316284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, not just happens-before + semantically-depends, it also includes read-written-value
< 1761026435 583941 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: with my suggestion, no, but I can see an argument that it should be yes
< 1761026464 741869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact there was a long discussion about that in the Rust forums or bug tracker (I forget which)
< 1761026485 672179 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also fun: `final` affects the memory model!  if you have a class with final fields and you're on Alpha which does not enforce in-order loads in the presence of an address dependency, if you receive an object pointer you need to fence before reading final fields so the fields can't appear to change)
< 1761026493 317470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and my attempted proofs that my version was safe didn't work for the version where using the read value as an integer were possible
< 1761026564 162606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that doesn't necessarily mean that it is unsafe, just that it's harder to prove safe)
< 1761026643 241349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this came up in the context of implementing LLVM's "freeze" operation in Rust (which works as follows: in LLVM, "undefined" is a separate value that all types can have; an LLVM-freeze changes undefined values to an arbitrary value and is a no-op on defined values)
< 1761026664 379632 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there was a huge debate about whether this was safe to add to the language, in the sense of not causing miscompiles
< 1761026831 322869 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(my guess is that it probably is, but I can't prove it and it may be difficult to prove)
< 1761026836 994272 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you would have to ensure that the implementation is correct, but it could be done, e.g. marking a register as "in use" without changing its value, in one case, possibly
< 1761027560 898692 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761027760 161602 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1761028480 642643 :^[!~user@user//x-8473491 JOIN #esolangs ^[ :user
< 1761029687 769362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761031314 334276 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761031976 103179 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1761032063 319841 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so an operation that can read an integer from memory non-atomically such that is unpredictable but not a trap value when there's an inter-thread race would be useful for running untrusted multithreaded code, which is why I think this came up in Java
< 1761032141 370525 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I don't know if that's the same operation as reading a relaxed atomic.
< 1761032875 211489 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does that LLVM-freeze only make sense for types like built-in integer or float types, or would it also apply to pointers? because I don't see how you could implement it for pointers.
< 1761032895 173672 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761032975 780025 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, in https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-21.html#lse you say that relaxed atomics is appropriate for mmapping areas that other processes could modify, so maybe what I'm asking for *is* just relaxed atomic reads and writes. but the problem is that in the C++ model, relaxed atomic reads are considered unsafe if another process does a
< 1761032976 280172 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :non-atomic write, aren't they.
< 1761033730 314174 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761034355 535476 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah, question. can you safely use C11 call_once from a signal handler, in the sense that you share a global once_flag variable that you may use from either any thread of the process or a signal handler in any thread? and if I want this, should I declare it volatile?
< 1761034875 571082 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this might not be the right question, because that's rarely useful.
< 1761037569 913638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761037650 842653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I don't know for certain, I don't see why you couldn't LLVM-freeze a pointer (although, if the value was previously undefined, you wouldn't be able to dereference the resulting pointer – it would still be safe to treat its address as an integer though)
< 1761037757 705197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, I think the C++/C11 atomics model disallows a race between an atomic read and a non-atomic write – but on most processors it's impossible to do a write weaker than relaxed unless the write splits a cache line (I think the discussion about doing relaxed-atomic reads of mmaps required you to read it a byte at a time, because of that)
< 1761037785 561847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in other words, your atomic read at the C++ level is racing with an atomic write at the asm level, so it works if you interpret the other process as being written in asm/machine code
< 1761037822 474626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess technically this would be unsound if an implementation decided to optimize across processes, but that seems like an unlikely optimisation choice
< 1761037854 728205 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, so not only do I have to do relaxed atomic reads, I have to do bytewise relaxed atomic reads? that sounds kind of annoying at first, but the compiler can probably optimize it to larger reads when I read a whole aligned word's worth of reads.
< 1761037975 972523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether compilers are allowed to take advantage of the fact that reads are guaranteed never to be torn, if it can't tell what's doing the write
< 1761037981 989228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* are able to take advantage
< 1761038012 24296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can't think of any optimisations that would allow, so just reading it atomically as aligned u32s or the like is probably going to be safe in practice
< 1761038044 946182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the glibc documentation says that their call_once is currently safe to call in a signal handler but they aren't committing to that yet
< 1761038067 251812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this implies that in C11 generally it isn't safe, otherwise the glibc devs would probably have committed to following the standard
< 1761038117 685427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the obvious implementation of it could deadlock if called from a signal handler)
< 1761038180 482708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…actually I'm not sure *how* it could be safe to call from a signal handler, what happens if the signal arrives halfway through the interrupted thread running the function?
< 1761038279 262400 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure C11 even tries to define how user-defined signal handlers in a multi-threaded program work. I have the feeling that the C standard doesn't even want to be concerned with signal handlers, they are just forced to because the signal function was in an early C standard as kind of a mistake and they don't want to remove it now.
< 1761038299 169278 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's more POSIX's territory
< 1761038513 205206 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for calling init_once from a signal handler while the initialization function is already in progress in the same thread, I think from the perspective of init_once, that's not really worse than an ordinary recursive call of init_once from the initialization routine when signal handlers aren't involved
< 1761038800 813779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: looks like call_once is not safe to call from a signal handler, despite the glibc docs (I have a TIO URL but it's too long to paste and am not sure I trust any of the URL shorteners I'm aware of)
< 1761038849 433053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://tio.run/##fVA7a8MwEN79K46UFJnYpZnddCshcyBTQYiTbAtkKUiyl5C/HlVXOy3pUA16fPoed4d1h5jSk7ZoRqngLfZeCRle@vfiFwy6s8L8waLUjqAiRBE1grOoeGtEB7Q1P/jkTD6NguzCRXSDRh4B3Wij8rCD10ydnJbQOsfoUsKlgLw2m4XUfD@90EGx42F//Nifyqa4LrKguon3wkqjPNM2Uo4dh7sLCmM41caeqa6KYmY1cQeh7UPo3Oo9pnpwL5v/HOnr7LNpy1Zr@WlXFVA55dIEZaZ0Q5KEVNd5fjvcblNtzvPMvwA
< 1761038851 954561 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, there we go
< 1761038868 357068 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doing it as a separate line was enough
< 1761038909 874983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this looks very much like it deadlocked (and it's hard to imagine any other reasonable result)
< 1761038951 35093 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular it timed out without any noticeable CPU usage
< 1761038978 834763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(what little CPU usage is shown is probably almost entirely from the compiler)
< 1761039176 269040 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but wouldn't call_once deliberately deadlocked if you tried this without the signal handler, as in if foo tried to call_once(&flag, ...) ?
< 1761039208 313516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: right, but it's an async signal, those can happen at any point (that's kind-of the definition of an async signal)
< 1761039247 186296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so to be async-signal-safe, the code has to work regardless of when the signal arrives, including the most inconvenient possible time (which in this case is the middle of the function passed as an argument to call_once)
< 1761039306 23183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a possible "fix" would be to mask all signals temporarily while running the call_once function (although that would have its own issues)
< 1761039328 840001 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, so you just shouldn't call call_once from a signal handler, there's no sane semantics, which is why my original question was a bad one.
< 1761039379 432341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well the glibc documenters seem to have got this wrong too, so it's at least non-obvious to some people
< 1761040428 884926 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761046188 169829 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1761046663 587872 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1761046817 587512 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761046844 417898 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761046857 336148 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1761047881 504274 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761049652 552057 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1761049712 818880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761049808 685874 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761049821 487846 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1761053048 957555 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
> 1761054893 314359 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166337 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1464) 10Created page with "{{Template:Stub}}  Mango is an unimplemented programming language by [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] inspired by modern 2010-20s slang.  {{infobox proglang | name = Mango | paradigms=imperative, procedural | author = [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] | year = 2025 | c
> 1761055000 12300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166338&oldid=159606 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+179) 10
< 1761056459 794685 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761056506 803744 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761056632 633080 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761056632 633287 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1761057231 445820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sorry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166339&oldid=139445 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10
> 1761057288 704340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sorry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166340&oldid=166339 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10
> 1761058487 779679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Swatinine 5*  10New user account
< 1761058749 231853 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761058926 449826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166341&oldid=166302 5* 03Swatinine 5* (+150) 10
> 1761058953 747955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166342&oldid=166330 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-149) 10/* ESOLANGS */ class="rectwrap"
> 1761058965 556714 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A=ab=bc=cd=d!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166343&oldid=165004 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+17) 10/* Truth Machine */ class="rectwrap"
> 1761058973 605874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Swatinine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166344 5* 03Swatinine 5* (+26) 10Created page with "Hello! I'm Swatinine! "
> 1761059038 599192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Swatinine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166345&oldid=166344 5* 03Swatinine 5* (+38) 10
> 1761059042 414024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166346&oldid=166337 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+992) 10Added Deadfish interpreter example + new keywords
> 1761059263 879510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166347&oldid=166346 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-9) 10remove unnecessary namespace inclusion
> 1761059281 348278 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166348&oldid=166347 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1) 10move infobox to top
> 1761059471 933445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166349&oldid=166348 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1) 10oops typo in the category, changed to high level
> 1761061106 16831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:TDQ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166350 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+143) 10Created page with "Hey, thanks for that!!!   --~~~~"
< 1761061125 845876 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761061569 682124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166351&oldid=135948 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+81) 10
< 1761062681 709681 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761064966 387108 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761066243 228732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bijection14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166352&oldid=138371 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10
< 1761066338 912686 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761066416 100976 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761066428 125960 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello esolangs!
< 1761066445 780146 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or Esolang people or whatever
< 1761066552 220568 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you
< 1761066864 249445 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761066874 99446 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761067072 561939 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Morning.
< 1761067151 484626 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Korvo: Morning! are you good? and are you working on anything lol?
< 1761067539 121687 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, to not be working on anything. I'm theoretically helping sorear clean up the NQL toolchain and merge in some community contributions, although frankly they do not need my help. I'm looking at Smalltix, a brand-new way of doing Smalltalk in Unix which I might operationalize. And I'm thinking of cleaning up the recent stub for Joy, but I'm not sure what should be done besides infobox.
< 1761067682 589227 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool! I actually just looked at the page for smalltix(though I dont understand, but thats a me problem). me personally, am trying to make an esolang focused on being undecidable, cuz I though it was interesting, for making a simple language. but its not going very well lol. but ill figure it out. but yea, nice!
< 1761067735 198905 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive been very inspired to do work, cuz I read some of my older works, and found them, quite good in my opion
< 1761067744 798843 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*opinion
< 1761067818 500978 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Undecidability is fairly easy. It's undecidable whether untyped lambda terms have normal forms, for example. What might your language compute?
< 1761067880 878840 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know it's simple, but I want to duo it creatively. but I think ill work on (if possible) make the language compile, self compiler style. but tbh idk what the hell im doing lol.
< 1761067900 144283 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*do
< 1761068424 495879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. There's no rush.
< 1761068426 600174 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok I think ive found a got concept!
< 1761068429 177351 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761068437 558006 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ofc!
> 1761068483 866111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166353&oldid=166110 5* 03Corbin 5* (+156) 10Fill out a bit more of this stub. I was going to be upset that this isn't just a contribution to catlangwiki, but on the other hand this is an opportunity to write a better article.
> 1761068629 631367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166354 5* 03Corbin 5* (+341) 10Stub a common concept. Not sure of the best name for this article.
> 1761069102 112581 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Manfred von Thun14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166355 5* 03Corbin 5* (+328) 10Stub for Von Thun.
< 1761069245 99884 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761069489 285492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Concatenative calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166356 5* 03Corbin 5* (+840) 10Still thinking on this one.
> 1761069847 119860 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Concatenative language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166357&oldid=156941 5* 03Corbin 5* (+137) 10Update bluelinks. catlangwiki doesn't do underscores like MW, so I've hacked up something equivalent.
> 1761069992 581624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Concatenative language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166358&oldid=166357 5* 03Corbin 5* (+14) 10Tighten up a bit of phrasing. Link [[monoid]] as main article for monoidal viewpoint.
> 1761070071 262145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mlatu14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166359&oldid=156894 5* 03Corbin 5* (-12) 10Bluelink.
> 1761070097 541347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld1 5*  10New user account
> 1761070235 160143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166360&oldid=165389 5* 03Corbin 5* (+28) 10Bluelinks.
< 1761070322 93992 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
< 1761070336 349178 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Really, one must imagine that Sisyphus deserved it~
< 1761071609 426933 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :G'Night
< 1761071833 690914 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Night.
> 1761072245 779579 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166361&oldid=166354 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+64) 10distinguish? might be a little silly
< 1761072409 134209 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761072427 764577 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1761072767 526102 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Welcome back.
< 1761072780 749304 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who
< 1761072782 780902 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :m3?
< 1761072787 578838 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*me
> 1761072797 309508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166362&oldid=166361 5* 03Somefan 5* (+33) 10str
< 1761072924 416479 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :vista_user: Oh, I thought you were another webchat user. Welcome nonetheless.
< 1761073114 495611 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user2
< 1761073119 100880 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761073119 199530 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :20:55:24  vista_user: Oh, I thought you were another webchat user. Welcome nonetheless.
< 1761073120 949424 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :i see
< 1761073129 567432 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh dangit ghost user
< 1761073175 843479 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now its offlime?
< 1761073179 875886 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf libera
< 1761073186 857513 :vista_user2!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net NICK :vista_user
< 1761073197 645575 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1761073204 575773 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :finally
> 1761073275 687247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166363&oldid=166362 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+23) 10format
> 1761073294 432679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166364 5* 03 5* (+1889) 10Started it
> 1761073419 231598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166365&oldid=166364 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+50) 10{{WIP}} + categories
> 1761073456 154452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166366&oldid=166363 5* 03Corbin 5* (+12) 10Funnier.
> 1761073846 326033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quote14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166367&oldid=166366 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-26) 10merge
< 1761074870 249057 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1761075043 102515 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761076088 943361 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1761081243 426984 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Quit: sytra
< 1761081588 798542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761081594 967164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://tio.run/##rVLRSuNAFH3PVxwrthNIW1OXhV1rHhasFkQFEV8WZJK5aYYdZ8Jkxj6sfnudJK1QX0Qw5GHmnjvnnHu4OW@qzabgDhncpMB8Pjq/WYyiQ6kL5QVh3jghzaTK9kpW6tV@jazVH9q8luHxh6dypblqa5HUDk9cavZspIjxP0L4epzdLS9ul7fnCcLhcXlxHZ/2KLnn3Jcs0Aa9BNf3V1cJHpc3iz@LBD@Of/2MTzGdoqmMVwI5gUObsamRe4ei4npFDYx3tXcdYecaZzju@eswlyvZ4Ej81YME5dpKR2xwSUqZBGtjlTgI9TT8swS9i7iXDDSa1kpq2mN6CAwhKzizbQfLqTSWUMuakFvi/@LfOGo6wRBsaDGWdb7i3dSKqGaz7e37LDdOKvUF47x0ZL/g@xOnpfJNxd4d7fUsWqyV7@
< 1761081596 572084 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FPhCw5b3Wr8xqF7Y1WRdEt89jARZOpw0k2nGGWDVOk2fAEL32kSHGIZs3r3YRci/YY9iOBq0h3s467Wdt7m9MWBzNK7NJEH0wa1rMwWmw2bw
< 1761081606 200591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is me trying to understand stdio buffering
< 1761081627 956101 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the output is really confusing and not only doesn't seem to match the docs, I can't form a consistent model of it
< 1761081848 677781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry about the link being split over two lines)
< 1761082191 85006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stderr is unbuffered by default?
< 1761082210 94151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the `setvbuf` changes that
< 1761082420 917049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it's documented as line-buffered if interactive, fully buffered if not interactive (and in this case stderr is a pipe, so not interactive)
< 1761082448 941524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, if it were fully buffered, then the fwrite call shouldn't be able to see that the pipe has broken because it shouldn't produce output at all
< 1761082456 500942 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second fwrite call, that is
< 1761082465 189735 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :python 3.14 has significant changes in its garbage collector implementation, just in case anyone's interested in that sort of thing
< 1761082466 725224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and returning 1 is just bizarre
< 1761082500 678335 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The  standard  error stream stderr is always unbuffered by default." -- setvbuf(3)
< 1761082541 721321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah, you're reading the man page and I'm reading the info page
< 1761082559 160759 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fun
< 1761082560 182784 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the info page doesn't have that special case (and in fact says there are no special cases other than the interactive case)
< 1761082572 62134 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's one mystery solved, at least – but the output for buffered stderr still doesn't make sense
< 1761082593 57428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the buffering clearly does something because the second fwrite returns 0 rather than 1 without it)
< 1761082633 100555 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761082700 228497 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :python 3.14...finally, πthon
< 1761082711 473580 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It acts normal for me in a terminal. (12, 12, -1)
< 1761082729 245393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, let me try in mine
< 1761082758 621233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, normal in mine too
< 1761082829 181191 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the original thing that prompted the experiment is a Rust bug report that was traced to stderr flushing doing something unexpected, although that was on mingw – there was speculation that it might act differently in a container for some reason, and now there's evidence of it acting differently in a sandbox/container on Linux too which is interesting)
< 1761082869 843922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it might be a case of different glibc version, or the like
< 1761082888 26724 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1761083123 487512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Izeva14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166368 5* 03Ivava 5* (+922) 10Created page with "{{WIP}}  :'' Does not apply to '''IZEVA - International Council on Clean Transportation''' and other  '''Izeva''' is easy(Maybe. It hasn't cycles) character-by-character esolang, has IO based on single accumulator. Hasn't good or useful commands. The only pleasant thing is a
< 1761083207 40273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my computer has glibc 2.41 and TIO has glibc 2.28, although it's hard to be confident
< 1761083542 637091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://tio.run/##S0oszvj/P7lAQT8nM8nMBEQm6xrpGVnoFecr6HHpoQj8/w8A
< 1761083611 93257 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :pretty confident about this one ;-)
< 1761083766 316785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I didn't realise you could just execute glibc as an executabe
< 1761083770 229907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* executable
< 1761083813 100782 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] CodeMelon
< 1761083821 508269 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hiii
< 1761083838 421154 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyone online?
< 1761083853 159485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761083868 750820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's usual to wait on IRC for a while to find that out, because people aren't necessarily checking it constantly
< 1761083869 94580 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cool :D
< 1761083877 938340 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok
< 1761083892 229314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for this channel, a good option is to read the logs to see if people have been talking (but not all channels have public logs)
< 1761083907 705113 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've just started going down the esolang rabbit hole
< 1761083958 724527 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And ive wrote my first esolang script can you rate it for me?
< 1761084023 490366 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you mean a program written in an esolang or a program that implements an esolang?
< 1761084029 773517 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's also a crude very short and not so fleshed out brainfuck explenation.
< 1761084042 178755 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A program written in one
< 1761084065 116753 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So... yeah or nah?
< 1761084114 930662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reading BF is normally quite difficult
< 1761084121 674509 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its probably been done before anyway but this is my own version of this kind of script
< 1761084126 553956 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ita not bf
< 1761084140 254584 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its a bf "mod"
< 1761084143 579478 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Idk
< 1761084158 640131 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, we have a huge number of those already
< 1761084168 391831 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like a version of bf thats still bf but a little different
< 1761084176 240463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so one more won't hurt much, but most of the existing ones aren't particularly creative
< 1761084196 581723 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No i think you nderstand me wrong
< 1761084197 66812 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CodeMelon: Out of curiosity, are you here from truttle1 the Youtuber?
< 1761084204 27852 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope
< 1761084226 84525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that I don't think I understand what you've done
< 1761084262 744796 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can i just show you? Like is it allowed to write a short code snippet in chat?
< 1761084276 54592 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CodeMelon: Use a pastebin please! bpa.st is an option.
< 1761084288 354396 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or maybe webchat does it automatically?
< 1761084293 93331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't post things directly in chat if they're more than about two lines long, use a pastebin instead
< 1761084319 667080 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aight
< 1761084334 51060 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here ya go: https://bpa.st/K4RBO
< 1761084364 968268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, it's polyglot code
< 1761084370 233448 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :between English and an esolang
< 1761084376 595033 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nope
< 1761084380 192782 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Guessing that the ASCII case bit is a carrier, like in the PNG format.
< 1761084382 24577 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or wait
< 1761084392 756850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: appears to be https://esolangs.org/wiki/OOo_CODE
< 1761084397 777287 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes
< 1761084403 118086 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its oOo code
< 1761084428 23000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Nice find.
< 1761084439 706754 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Its said in the text and it does what it says it will do while explaining the basics of bf
< 1761084460 378163 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So is this as my first esolang script good?
< 1761084477 268256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this situation you can use arbitrary ASCII text as a carrier, so it's basically just an encoding of a BF constant string printer
< 1761084486 146328 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes
< 1761084497 920470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it isn't technically interesting, but it is artistically interesting – whether that's "good" or not is a matter of perspective
< 1761084498 895643 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fun! I haven't checked that it's correct, but it's a decent concept. Did you generate this from another script or did you write it by hand? Impressive either way.
< 1761084578 136896 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo I made a website that turns bf into oOo code and you can combine bf and self written text into oOo :)
< 1761084608 364944 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just a  fun project i made this afternoon
< 1761084617 441132 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking about oOo code quines – it's easy enough if you just write the entire program with o and O, but making them use readable text as the carrier would be interesting
< 1761084637 523583 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah :)
< 1761084647 444225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would by nature necessarily have to be substantially compressible, which means that the challenge would be to find a text document that was highly compressible but didn't *look* highly compressible, whilst still remaning meaningful
< 1761084651 424146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, that makes sense. Good times. Totally useless most of the time, unfortunately. Stego's the sort of thing that only makes sense during Little Brother scenarios, and then you need for your stego to be completely invisible rather than fairly obvious.
< 1761084678 293812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it doesn't have to be steganography, it could be polyglotting instead
< 1761084692 841619 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. the information channel's existence is obvious but it doesn't interfere with reading the source code a different way
< 1761084720 138839 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still have trouble writing quines theyre so scary :(
< 1761084728 246511 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And hard
< 1761084737 105815 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like to come up with
< 1761084785 844910 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like the Code Golf Stack Exchange polyglot, being valid in over 300+ different languages/implementations, is *entirely* obvious signal but much of it may be hard to decode because it's masked by the other obvious signal
< 1761084898 586371 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CodeMelon: Once you've memorized the recipe, it'll be easier. Eventually it's a matter of figuring out how to print various characters. What have you tried so far?
< 1761084924 881352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(now at 451 languages/implementations, I just checked)
< 1761084947 304364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be precise, two different versions of the same language only count if it produces different output without an explicit version check
< 1761084956 774152 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761084968 100149 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] CodeMelon
< 1761085017 247265 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Umm... ive not tried to make a quine yet, ive just learned it today what it is since ive stumbled onto esolangs
< 1761085039 510981 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (:a*S):a*S
< 1761085039 559952 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs ::a*S(:a*S)
< 1761085053 774160 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The heck is that
< 1761085060 310151 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a quine in Underload
< 1761085066 372338 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Crazy
< 1761085089 334337 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But how why?!
< 1761085093 916689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :almost all quines follow one of two basic patterns, Underload has built-ins for all the relevant parts of the quning pattern so the quine is very short
< 1761085104 273497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (a(:^)*S):^
< 1761085104 334342 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a(:^)*S):^
< 1761085106 459702 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the other one
< 1761085132 853077 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the first quine is backwards
< 1761085141 734258 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (:a~*S):a~*S
< 1761085141 783994 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :(:a~*S):a~*S
< 1761085144 282713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's better
< 1761085145 908863 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Woah ok thats very cool, gonna look into underload today after ive gone to sleep(its 12pm)
< 1761085209 923183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but writing a quine in any language is basically doing one of those two things – the hard part is normally regenerating the source code representation of a string from the string itself (Underload "a")
< 1761085238 782811 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :CodeMelon: No worries. Have a good night. Glad to show you something new.
< 1761085252 820088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there are a few other ways to do quines, but most of them can be considered to be cheating in one way or another, or are just overly complicated versions of one of those two basic patterns)
< 1761085262 464015 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Thank you so much guys
< 1761085374 480032 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh and heres the bf -> oOo / bf + text -> oOo site i made, Im on mobile btw (i program on mobile judge me) so the site might not look right on pc + im not a graphics designer, https://ozelotgamer.github.io/oOoCoder.html
< 1761085395 490749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> let a = " in \"let a = \" ++ show a ++ a" in "let a = " ++ show a ++ a
< 1761085396 750370 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : "let a = \" in \\\"let a = \\\" ++ show a ++ a\" in \"let a = \" ++ show a +...
< 1761085409 701495 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: On my plate to write up: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3759429.3762631 "Gauguin, Descartes, Bayes: A Diurnal Golem’s Brain"
< 1761085446 678419 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They propose a *gauguine*: a program that probabalistically infers its own source code given a description of its own behavior.
< 1761085480 924492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: reminds me a bit of 7, except that its 6 command is deterministic
< 1761085494 708966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and very useful for quines)
< 1761085519 965115 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ok good night
< 1761085522 739540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :7 is a bit of an impoverished version of the idea, though
< 1761085525 53651 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cya
< 1761085528 112827 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night
< 1761085548 830903 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's just "generate source code for a program that produces this output" which in a sense isn't interesting
< 1761085585 381109 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a gaugine doesn't have to be diagonalised, right? it could just be "probabilistically infer the source code of a program given a description of its behaviour"
< 1761085597 513064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and I just realised that current coding LLMs actually do that%, albeit badly
< 1761085599 301373 :CodeMelon!~CodeMelon@2a00:fbc:e024:af99:f80d:4455:bc3f:dc67 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761085606 142514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* …and I just realised that current coding LLMs actually do that, albeit badly
< 1761085626 303413 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. On the other end of the power spectrum, I'm looking at the self-normalization barrier, which I think really misses that a practical Unix terminal is simply typed in bytes.
< 1761085656 642937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could prompt one with "write a program that takes a text description of how a program behaves, and outputs the source code of that program" and with a perfect coding LLM that would make it into a quine
< 1761085670 716629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice I doubt it'd manage a very good attempt
< 1761085683 189145 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep! Indeed, the paper's construction only specifies its behavior at a high level, and everything else is inferred. It looks like most of the program is about encoding the syntax of the Church language, which is the probabalistic PL used to run the program.
< 1761085688 569089 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To...sample from the program?
< 1761085689 93100 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although maybe it's seen LLM source code to plagiarise, I doubt it'd be able to recreate the weights / training data
< 1761085749 394061 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah! Yes, that concept's been explored. The original papers are on "Gödel machines", so named because there are obvious ways that they must provably be unable to improve themselves.
< 1761085785 642147 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The most recent iteration I saw was "Darwin Gödel machines", which added genetic algorithms and language models. TBF I think that genetic algorithms would be a great fit, but maybe not so much on the language models.
< 1761085916 47656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has crossed my mind that given a sufficiently good estimator of "how close" a program is to implementing a given behaviour, you could use a genetic algorithm to produce a program that implements it
< 1761085929 894531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and this may be what coding agents are actually doing, in the case where they work (rather than using knowledge or reasoning)
< 1761085940 621838 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Also, there's probably a way to cheat with LLMs. The fundamental idea is something like https://www.pcg-random.org/party-tricks.html
< 1761085993 673594 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then there's a variety of ways to gradient-descent in the wrong direction for reasonably cheap. Something like "reverse prompt engineering" https://arxiv.org/abs/2411.06729v3
< 1761086067 183224 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Coding agents are definitely not doing genetic algorithms. Rather, they're doing chain-of-thought and lots of scratch tokens. We know from bertology that the models *can* emit high-quality code; we just didn't know what sorts of prompts and RL would elicit agentive code-writing behavior.
< 1761086132 37901 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Cammy's reference implementation has a coding oracle "kamis" which uses the SOTA genetic algorithm for functional programming. See the refs on the wiki page.)
< 1761086149 552505 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761086178 486322 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The supervising author on those genetic-algo papers was O'Neill, the author of PCG. Curious coincidence?)
< 1761086229 663988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, a coding agent is a loop – take the existing state of the repository, prompt the agent with it, apply the action that it suggests
< 1761086246 210695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one loop iteration clearly isn't an evolutionary algorithm, but the loop as a whole may be
< 1761086259 621215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I guess it can't be "genetic" unless you mix in old / parallel states)
< 1761086387 546827 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It has to have some sort of pressure which causes selection. In the O'Neill paradigm, fitness minimizes towards zero, but folks often run coding agents in an open-ended mode with ill-defined stopping points.
< 1761086437 590219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, so the condition for this to work is basically "is the LLM able to determine whether or not the new version of the repository is a better fit for the request than the old version?"
< 1761086451 420001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and my guess is that sometimes that condition is satisfied and you get useful output, usually it isn't and you get useless output
< 1761086451 505289 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The full Brigg-O'Neill approach is to use structure (like, homomorphic structure) to rip apart candidates. Each candidate's shreds are put through a type-checker and added to the available gene pool.
< 1761086483 460340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but notably, I don't think most coding agents revert when a change has made things worse
< 1761086508 960373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(they may attempt to create a counteracting change, but there's no guarantee that it's a correct revert)
< 1761086538 771263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you're right, agentic LLMs aren't actually doing this properly (but they would probably work better if they did)
< 1761086569 279923 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The key phrase to search is "meta in-context learning". The model has to optimize three goals at three different times: predicting the next token during pretraining, decreasing regret during RL, and writing good-enough code during inference.
< 1761086611 109803 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Haaaaave you read "Simulators" yet? The simulators viewpoint is the best way to understand how correct code might arise from a pile of memes.
< 1761086618 960599 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no
< 1761086645 541752 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Warning: bertology, LessWrong-style rationalism, GPT-generated text; here's the original post: https://generative.ink/posts/simulators/
< 1761086650 760495 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not surprised that it's possible, but I'm sceptical about how much of it is due to the LLM itself and how much is due to the scaffolding
< 1761086709 385409 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My work-safe summary: https://genai.stackexchange.com/q/260 Language models aren't agents, genies, oracles, or tools; they are general-purpose *simulators* which *simulate* conversations that humans might have with hypothetical agents, genies, oracles, or tools.
< 1761086729 856895 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :They don't reason like humans. They reason like screenwriters imagining what humans might say.
< 1761086779 196996 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is that not "common knowledge?"
< 1761086783 962996 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RL turns any model into an agent. Take a weather simulation and say "make it look good for humans", and you'll eventually get attractive ladies who talk about how lovely the weekend will be. But the underlying simulation is only trying to get the weather right.
< 1761086806 677744 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :They were trained with textual input, and that's what they generate.
< 1761086819 544802 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Stuff that looks like texts."
< 1761086820 880514 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Riviera: Sadly, most practitioners seem to either believe that it's just matrix multiplication and don't know what a meme is, or think that they're literally summoning demons into the GPUs.
< 1761086870 712701 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The best take is from Emily Bender, who agrees with me that there's a gap between syntax and semantics. She has a great quip: "Play syntactic games, win syntactic prizes." They're meme machines.
< 1761086892 727771 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm less concerned with whether I am missing something.
< 1761086915 910994 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think you're arguing at a different point than the one I'm trying to think about
< 1761086951 427010 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. I don't disagree with you but I'm working on a different part of the problem
< 1761086988 552248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and I'm using "agent" purely in the sense of "a program that runs an LLM in a loop and changes the input based on the output")
< 1761087018 572103 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, that thing that Naur talked about, theory-building, it's not something that the model can do. It's just not there. So whatever code is generated is *memetic*; it's emergent from cultural practices and shaped by the languages that we use to communicate, but not necessarily *grounded*. AI researchers complain of "symbol grounding".
< 1761087089 370826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I am not disagreeing with this – I am instead trying to work out, in effect, how stupid/simple one loop iteration of an agentic loop can be whilst still producing useful output (and have a suspicion that you don't need anything close to as powerful as today's LLMs)
< 1761087119 986814 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah! We usually say that an agent has a *goal*. Without a goal and RL, that sort of loop will decay to a stationary distribution because the model is Markov.
< 1761087130 250146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good example is the "apply the suggestions that rustc gives you until you reach a fixed point/oscillator or compiling code" technique that beginners to Rust often try, and apparently try to work quite well
< 1761087214 980232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my previous jobs was programming in OCaml, I found large refactors really easy to do, because you did the first step and then just chased compiler error messages until the refactor was finished
< 1761087246 887676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really enjoyed that (and Rust being OCaml-inspired, and intended to support the same basic workflow, is one of the things that initially got me to try it)
< 1761087274 780787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the sort of thing that seems really automatable, although I never did automate it
< 1761087351 65784 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Idris has it automated. Write a type signature without a definition, add question marks for typed holes, and let the IDE search for candidates to recursively fill the holes. It only works in the simplest cases though.
< 1761087397 556674 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I added "kamis" to Cammy as an improvement on the older solver, "djinn", which does the simply-typed equivalent. It does great on basic plumbing but can't optimize for fitness WRT a goal.
< 1761087404 746177 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right – proof languages can get away with that, when used purely for proofs, because you can't end up with a wrong value of the right type
< 1761087417 935240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anything of the type you want is sufficient
< 1761087460 102759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I have weird opinions about proof languages – I dislike tactics as a source code construct, as opposed to something you use in your IDE to generate the source of a proof
< 1761087491 794292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I want the proof to contain the actual reasoning, rather than a statement along the lines of "the proof is standard using these standard techniques"
< 1761087566 640664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Makes sense to me. I'm on team Metamath; I only know Rocq, Idris, and I guess Agda for practical reasons. You'll find lots of esoteric folks agreeing; there's NQL, Metamath Zero, etc.
< 1761087605 640375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Agda is the only one that I've used, and only for very basic things
< 1761087609 7963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've already tried a variety of models for generating uncompressed Metamath proofs. Totally useless, even with a constrained grammar that forces them to pick legal moves.
< 1761087649 581119 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might as well spill the beans. One of my side projects involves the insight from the end of The Cell (2001): what if we inverted the direction in which the simulation is flowing?
< 1761087693 774961 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rather than having a chat interface, what if we have the simulation integrate all of the available data, and only chat as an optional side-effect? Initial experiments are very promising, with the understanding that this can't be turned into exploitable labor.
< 1761087735 16112 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, The Cell came out in 2000? Wow. I knew it was early 2000s, but that's early early.
< 1761087761 690241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now you've got me thinking "by some methods of counting, 2000 was in the 1900s"
< 1761087793 711564 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1761089039 703776 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:75ad:6ea9:b519:8422 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761089142 860193 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mentioned before attacking your ally deliberately in Pokemon, but I also remember once before I played, although I did not do so, if I was on the opponent's side, I would have deliberately attacked the ally (for damage, to attempt to knock out the ally, rather than only paralysis)
< 1761089348 841857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: your example of intentionally paralyzing a Clefable confused me, because Clefable is one of the Pokémon that's least useful to do it on
< 1761089380 934698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally the reason I would want my own Pokémon paralyzed in competitive Pokémon is to protect them from being toxic-poisoned, but Clefable normally has Magic Guard and thus doesn't care about being toxic-poisoned as it is
< 1761089418 136208 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The TIO behavior is WEIRD, can't explain it, not even with the old glibc version in the picture. It would have to be patched, I think.
< 1761089428 810898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as this conversation suggests, Pokémon status conditions don't really reflect or act like their equivalents in real life)
< 1761089453 266839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it's definitely running in a sandbox, which might potentially break things somehow?
< 1761089476 641068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: But it should not be doing any system calls, just fill the buffer.
< 1761089488 503013 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1761089514 190065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can potentially see a sandbox breaking the output of fstat calls, which might cause glibc to act differently
< 1761089519 348487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but acting that differently is strange
< 1761089545 966091 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I know that, and it was a risky situation, so it might not have been the best move, but it was a risk I decided to take and it ended up helping.
< 1761089550 568972 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also possible that TIO injects extra flushes, somehow, in order to be able to show more output if a program crashes
< 1761089677 566634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: lol: https://github.com/TryItOnline/tiosetup/blob/master/files/system/tiopreload.cpp
< 1761089731 664325 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I don't think that explains the weird behaviour but it's definitely worth the link
< 1761089747 691348 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah it doesn't, but it's a ridiculous hack :)
< 1761089763 832025 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't even hiding the output, just sending it to a different file descriptor
< 1761089803 614660 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I'm vaguely surprised that defining a function called __builtin_printf actually works
< 1761089810 958727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in that it's permitted and isn't a no-op)
> 1761089829 675472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166369&oldid=166349 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+0) 10Took me a while to figure out that this is a WIP and not a stub
< 1761089846 70776 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, but there's another preload: LD_PRELOAD=libstdbuf.so:tiopreload.so
< 1761089869 41436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both halves of that are suspicious
< 1761089879 831073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stdbuf is a command that changes how stdio buffering works, and tiopreload could do anything
< 1761089930 571147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and with LD_PRELOAD= ./t ... the behavior disappears (becomes 12/12/-1)
< 1761089942 629300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what is that thing
< 1761089964 991260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, tiopreload is specifically just the thing that sends assertion failures to stdout
< 1761089971 299036 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it must be stdbuf that's causing the problem
< 1761090075 986352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I can reproduce locally using «stdbuf -i0 -e0 -o0 ./t 3>&2 2>&1 1>&3 | sleep 1»
< 1761090079 334418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's a bug in stdbuf
< 1761090432 858980 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well, it's a bug in glibc where setvbuf(stderr, NULL, _IONBF, 0); followed by setvbuf(stderr, NULL, _IOFBF, 4096); behaves differently from just setvbuf(stderr, NULL, _IOFBF, 4096);
< 1761090535 689938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and *that* I can actually reproduce locally. Isn't that fun.
< 1761090579 227851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(with glibc-2.41)
< 1761090597 706219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I checked the stdbuf source, and it doesn't seem to be a stdbuf bug (this conclusion is consistent with yours)
< 1761090610 143992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in that stdbuf just calls setvbuf at program load and doesn't do anything else
< 1761090662 457168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I decided to just emulate that behavior without the preload
< 1761090773 536978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if you give setvbuf an actual array as its second argument, rather than NULL?
< 1761090805 567365 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(should probably be static for lifetime reasons)
< 1761090841 760323 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then it's back to 12/12/-1
< 1761090853 319886 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the info page and man page disagree about what a NULL second argument means, which isn't particularly surprising given what we know so far
< 1761090860 253877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although the 12/1/0 behaviour doesn't match either of them)
> 1761090875 490839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166370&oldid=166369 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+502) 10Added 41 and 21
> 1761091278 861901 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166371&oldid=166370 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+163) 10Open the door for contribution (do it on github idiot)
< 1761091313 29890 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :" The programmer should
< 1761091313 147367 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :bear in mind that 10,000 executions of all nonoptimum instructions would
< 1761091313 175903 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :take less than 3 minutes longer than 10,000 executions of optimum instructions. If the programmer spends 15 - 30 minutes on each routine
< 1761091313 175945 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to save machine time by optimizing, this time may never be made up in the actual running of the problem."
< 1761091333 136135 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bitsavers.org/pdf/royalPrecision/LGP-30/LGP-30_Subroutine_Manual_Oct60.pdf
< 1761091532 109841 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In this case, it was to prevent Clefable from falling asleep; it is risky because in both cases you might not be able to do anything, although with different probabilities of that occurring at different times. It also reduces Clefable's speed compared with my other active pokemon attacking first)
< 1761092110 202985 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess it's not a bug then. The underlying quirk is that switching to unbuffered mode intializes buffer start and end to comprise a 1 byte buffer. And the automatic allocation only kicks in if no buffer is initialized. It ignores the `size` argument, too, instead uses the default buffer size (10000?). 8c85a940b12f57ed5116e759b6c9aa388b169fdd
< 1761092145 167417 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, what's that hash
< 1761092307 432224 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: one half of that is here, https://github.com/bminor/glibc/blob/master/libio/iosetvbuf.c#L45-L69 and the other half is here, https://github.com/bminor/glibc/blob/master/libio/genops.c#L481-L485 (well, in part, the logic is repeated at least once that I saw in passing)
< 1761092350 404287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So I guess, don't use NULL there if you want to get a buffer.
< 1761092366 432273 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: And of course a 1 byte buffer explains the 12/1 behavior perfectly.
< 1761092470 901704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and you need a 1 byte buffer for ungetc(), I think that's the last piece of the puzzle
< 1761092494 212727 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that, and sharing the basic buffer setup between reading and writing
< 1761092746 340760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: nowadays, a) programs are run more often than they used to be, b) one-off programs often deal with a very large amount of data, so you're OK with making the O(1) compile slower in order to make the O(n) program faster even if the constant-factor tradeoff isn't good
< 1761092764 80773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so although that advice was historically correct I don't think it applies much nowadays for choice of compiler settings
< 1761092786 748143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it does sometimes apply to choice of language, e.g. languages like Perl are good for one-off scripts acting on small datasets despite having bad performance)
< 1761092806 413301 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761092824 595199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the traditional wisdom from the early days of programming was that the only program worth optimising is the compiler, as it's the only one you run often enough to make optimising it save net time
< 1761092874 630337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: a default size that is not a multiple of the page size looks so wrong to me
< 1761092898 390691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although I know that it's being used purely for memory copies and not any mapping tricks, so it shouldn't hurt in any way other than possibly wasted TLB space)
< 1761093019 56217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, a good reason for it to be a multiple of the page size is that it's a big allocation, so some allocators may want to put it in its own mapping
< 1761093432 62340 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 JOIN #esolangs * :Jordan
< 1761093433 446244 :sytra!~sytra@212.24.11.211 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761093562 512025 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :In the case of LGP-30, optimizing is ... apparently choosing where the data is located relative to the instruction in a particular way.
< 1761093712 733583 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh it's 8192, the 10k is from a test, my bad.
< 1761093733 248463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: was it designed for drum memory or delay line memory?
< 1761093744 349006 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Drum memory
< 1761093771 480119 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the instructions don't have a "next instruction" address. LGP-30 though was a predecessor machine to the one from Story of Mel apparently
< 1761093903 56695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just realised that with drum memory, it might make sense for the instruction pointer to, after each instruction, increase by a constant that's greater than 1
< 1761093923 464696 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to save the memory that would be needed for the "next instruction" pointer, whilst still getting decent speed
< 1761093942 419978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it'd require a full loop round the drum if the instruction accessed data memory that was on the same drum as the code
< 1761093973 504161 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still have no intuition for why drives are better than drums (for secondary storage)
< 1761094051 828340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean, like hard drives? I think it's just because they're more usefully three-dimensional
< 1761094060 39520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with drum memory you only get the outer surface of the drum to work with
< 1761094070 719973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with a hard drive you get the entire surface area of each platter
< 1761094107 685499 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I keep thinking of hard drives as being single platter, but that... wasn't at all the case early on I think
< 1761094138 400194 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or to put it another way, multiple hard drive platters stack better into a small space than multiple drums do
> 1761094598 404024 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166372&oldid=166371 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+9) 10comment
> 1761095999 619524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166373&oldid=166372 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+500) 10Added "nt tuff" + "so tuff"
< 1761096254 781461 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking how fascinating it would be if a computer used hard drive as main memory... LGP-21 did
< 1761096758 804762 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761099403 926381 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot: help
< 1761099920 402066 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION vaguely wonders if perlbot has any relation to PerlNomic

< 1761100120 904783 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure why I thought the Story of Mel was fictional
< 1761100134 15540 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :When I first read it some time ago. 
< 1761100530 972469 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The one that I thought the opponent's pokemon should attack the ally if I was in their place, was that I had Gastrodon with Storm Drain ability, with Recover and some other things (I do not remember all of the details). One of opponent's pokemons was both trapped and choice-locked (and I think it was Samurott, but I do not reember for sure).
< 1761100590 660138 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Their other ones also could not attack Gastrodon enough, and both of my pokemons could attack the opponent's pokemon other than Samurott. I do not entirely remember why, but since opponent's Samurott was in all the time, I did not attack Samurott until knocking out all of opponent's other pokemons first.)
< 1761100672 51193 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38, is this a specific Pokemon game?
< 1761100740 996145 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :This was the Pokemon Unbound Battle Frontier (which is a separate .gba file from the main Pokemon Unbound game)
< 1761103777 406342 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1761104818 244311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: in case you haven't seen it: https://melsloop.com/
< 1761104944 443045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(summary: someone doing serious investigation into The Story of Mel, including figuring out who Mel was, and going into the technical details of the code – but there's also just a lot of general context added)
< 1761105132 77637 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Came across it, haven't read it yet
< 1761106036 835390 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am glad that someone wrote it because I had also wondering about such things like that
< 1761106481 468299 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It does not display the entire article on my computer unless I disable CSS; if it does not work for you, you might try that too)
< 1761107572 123629 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I saw a blog post by Masswerk about the LGP-50, but it contains an error (saying one's complement instead of two's complement). I hope... my email about that wasn't rude. I did call it nitpicking in the subject
< 1761107593 728563 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :*LGP-30
< 1761109669 101025 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761109796 230892 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Machines with serial number 1.2 or less read 4 of the 6 channels
< 1761109796 346142 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :into the computer. "
< 1761109807 86834 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :12, not 1.2
< 1761109818 329225 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello chat
< 1761109819 901298 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761109820 633300 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :1.2 would be a fun serial number
< 1761109823 43232 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Yayimhere
< 1761109836 15233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is old enough that making 12 computers of a given model would be a lot
< 1761109839 517091 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523 yes it would lol
< 1761109842 473356 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :but hi!
< 1761109906 29147 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :what are we working on around here?
< 1761109914 212675 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is learning about LGP-30

< 1761109919 824767 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/LGP-30/manuals/LGP-30_Programming_Class_Notes.pdf
< 1761109926 103462 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool!
< 1761110007 890641 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether there's a channel specifically for retrocomputing
< 1761110016 41100 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's obviously a big overlap with esolangs, but they're technically different topics
< 1761110032 553182 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the retrocomputing enthusiasts likely hang out elsewhere rather than here
< 1761110036 962610 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761110051 66598 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are multiple retrocomputing Discords, and there's a retronetworking channel here (that I don't participate much in)
> 1761110233 470509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071L a14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166374&oldid=137854 5* 03Ais523 5* (+41) 10add the unknown computational class because TCness hasn't been proven (somewhat odd for a language from 2005 that was relatively famous at the time)
< 1761110424 108623 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :yay!!! I think I have found something interesting to make (finally)!!!
< 1761110645 989484 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :well its already made but like
< 1761110647 813567 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :work on
< 1761110780 635665 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :The earlier LGP-30s have an extra break point button compared to the later ones
> 1761110798 176492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:(ch34t) c0d314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166375&oldid=141480 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-241) 10this was a comment by my, and is unnecessary
> 1761110841 732225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(ch34t) c0d314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166376&oldid=148937 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10
< 1761111088 857833 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you guys name your esolangs?
< 1761111119 361527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally just go with the first thing that seems like it fits
< 1761111152 639737 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of them have a lot of thought put into their names, e.g. Incident, but that's a minority of cases (I put extra effort into Incident because it was made for a competition)
< 1761111168 109823 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1761111168 609529 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need to look at incident again lol
< 1761111179 902985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not an easy language
< 1761111193 59273 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just like to read
< 1761111202 793769 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :i find it interesting!
< 1761111248 207617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the funny thing is that I thought of the basic rule ("every token appears three times, non-middle jumps to middle, middle jumps back to the non-middle") really quickly and then everything else was trying to work through the implications
< 1761111291 663644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the "every token appears three times" rule was inspired by a programming competition where people had to avoid particular characters appearing in the source code, so I wanted to make a language that was Turing-complete-with-I/O off any two characters)
< 1761111306 281509 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1761111314 555202 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello jonas
< 1761111324 457500 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :o/
< 1761111337 30813 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the tight-infinite-loops rule was originally added to make polyglotting easier but it turned out to be useful for other things too (e.g. producing a syntax for a goto statement as emergent behaviour)
< 1761111398 598012 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :its so interesting to hear the backstories of esolangs as well
< 1761111404 572656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, backwards jumps don't need it, just the forward ones
< 1761111476 831208 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly enough I mentally categorise esolangs by where I was when I created them, e.g. Incident was created walking to a restaurant and Echo Tag was created in a railway station
< 1761111487 880591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not the entire language, just the key idea)
< 1761111505 561827 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :nearly all of my good esolangs were either made in the car, or in the bed while having a massive headache
< 1761111562 279466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model was a really boring location: sitting at my computer 
< 1761111586 830755 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe
< 1761111610 264475 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :also ive found a good name for my esolang
< 1761111877 423851 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hiding data in arbitrary English text as carrier: I like that concept, I tried it at least once, though I just encoded a short constant string rather than a bf program: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=877696
< 1761111893 455568 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo: the lgp30 has one head _per track_, it "seeks" using a bank of relays instead of a voice coil and a hinge ... dunno if later drums solved this but you can't fit a perpendicular arc into a cylinder so you'd need a complicated linkage 
< 1761111894 356657 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and making the text explain what you're doing is a good idea
> 1761112096 631866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166377&oldid=153045 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+181) 10
> 1761112112 290311 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166378&oldid=166377 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10
< 1761112146 142381 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: stegano vs obvious polyglot, there's a middle ground, where it's obvious that there's something hidden but it's not obvious how to decode it or what language it is polyglot with
< 1761112184 219725 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that usually comes up in puzzles, where the puzzle is written in a way that has an obvious surface meaning, and you can tell that there's something hidden, but it's hard to figure out what's hidden exactly
< 1761112185 392184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: like if you encounter a long hex string that's indistinguishable from random?
< 1761112196 488235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1761112205 396576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the difference being that in the puzzle, it's meant to be decoded
< 1761112224 456259 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye people!
< 1761112226 883440 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'll see me again
< 1761112229 762802 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye
< 1761112386 278857 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-nat-gp-s-41-13-0-229.umts.vodacom.co.za QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761112408 607326 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, what are these two basic patterns for quining? I can think of only one basic pattern. there's one more pattern is cheating to read the source code from somewhere that it's stored, but that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to; and there's also empty quines in many languages, including Underload, but that also doesn't seem to be what you're referring to.
< 1761112542 63633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: quoted code + code, and eval-quine
< 1761112578 997196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a "third" which is topological quines, but those aren't possible in most languages and are mildly controversial (albeit generally accepted)
< 1761112656 671119 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a topological quine is, e.g., starting a Befunge program with < and ending it with an unmatched ", in order to put the program both inside and outside a string literal and produce a quoted code + code quine with only one copy of the code
< 1761112701 787960 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does "eval-quine" mean?
< 1761112774 228283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you write the program in the form x="string literal"; eval(x)
< 1761112793 838969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the body of the string literal is a function that regenerates the entire pattern from the contents of the string literal
< 1761112813 982272 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I See
> 1761112819 595585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bog prok14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166379&oldid=141142 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-137) 10
< 1761112830 429345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is still in the variable x, which is why you need a separate variable)
< 1761112841 667247 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same string is both evalled and used as literal. yes, I've done such a thing though not as a quine I think
< 1761112973 456114 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :JS allows reverse eval quines where, instead of using a string literal as code, you use code as a string literal by calling toString on a function – but that's widely considered cheating, whereas eval-quines aren't
< 1761112985 862678 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :quine legality is a weird subject and almost impossible to define objectively
< 1761113007 833555 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in perl a trick is to `eval for ` followed by a string literal, then the code can access the string from the $_ variable
< 1761113017 215010 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've used JS reverse quines to make "malware" for the toy web OS Windows 96 >.>
< 1761113190 525928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a (non-quine) example for that is https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=658930 . a large part of the string is a comment when it's interpreted as code, and that's long enough to encode all of the output, but you have to encode the output after you write the rest of the code in the string, because almost the whole string is used as data and is sufficiently mixed up so if you modify the code in any way it 
< 1761113196 532101 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :will completely ruin the output
< 1761113284 435777 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh, I remember I had a Perl-related problem in polyglotting or restricted source or something and fixed it by starting the code with a bareword followed by =~
< 1761113291 912160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but can't remember what the problem was or why that helped
> 1761113306 573728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bog prok14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166380&oldid=166379 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+99) 10/* other */
< 1761113313 443547 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh… maybe it was a "make the deletion of any character observable" type of problem
< 1761113505 859094 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first recipe, repeating a quote twice, is the one that is guaranteed by the diagonal lemma. The trick is merely to substitute the quote twice with different delimiters, so that the generated code repeats the quote literally and "repeats the quote literally".
< 1761113587 512722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second recipe is also guaranteed, because you can write a self-interpreter in any TC language
< 1761113608 519317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just really really verbose if the language doesn't have an eval builtin
> 1761113666 533674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bog prok14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166381&oldid=166380 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+230) 10/* computation */
< 1761113761 888557 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: is the file handle flushed before you do those setvbuf calls?
< 1761113798 703238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: we figured it out later in the scrollback
< 1761113810 733025 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(well, mostly int-e did)
< 1761113922 923817 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re advice for choosing what to optimize, another reason why this changed is because interactive debuggers and some other tools used to be much worse at dealing with optimized code, now they are much better because the compiler writes better debug info and the debugger can interpret that debug info better.
< 1761113950 611392 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I use -Og as a default when writing C nowadays
< 1761113964 462543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's unclear whether it's actually much better for debugging than -O2 or -O3
< 1761113964 785703 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761114374 44941 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"mentally categorise esolangs by where I was when I created them" => hehe. for geo and scan that's really easy, because I made them for a university programming class, so I was clearly in the unviersity computer lab. I got the original idea for Consumer Society when I was visiting my brother in Sweden, but it took like a year after that to actually figure out how to get an interesting esolang based on 
< 1761114380 49016 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that idea. But I've no idea when and how I first started to think about Enchain.
< 1761114409 566934 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: you have headache-inspired esoteric languages? I haven't tried that and I don't see how that strategy would work
< 1761114484 390542 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: can't you use a head moving on a linear rail with a flexible cable, like how the head of some printers works?
< 1761114571 716514 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean the head is moved by a chain loop between two gears driven by a motor in that case
< 1761114656 191833 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although if you don't need to make the drum drive portable then you could use the typewriter method, where it's the drum that moves on a rail and the head is fixed to the bulk of the drive, which is better because you don't need flexible cables
< 1761114669 798449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait, that doesn't work for a drum drive because you can't rotate the drum fast that way
< 1761114680 397685 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, maybe you could, but it'd be harder than in a typewriter
< 1761114769 32586 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd need to add two or three extra eletric rails with moving contact footwear to transmit electricity into a motor in the moving part, in addition to the rails for mechanical linkage, and that gets ugly and the footwear can wear out too quickly
< 1761114841 958343 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you actually call in english the footwear that makes electrical contact between a moving carriage and a fixed rail?
< 1761115050 581046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in the railway context, "contact shoe"  but often just "shoe" for short
< 1761115057 570216 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the equivalent in a motor is called a "brush"
< 1761115140 883655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and if it's an overhead conductor rather than on the ground, it uses a different form of electrical contact that's usually called a "pantograph" for some reason (I guess it kind-of looks a bit like the drawing tool?)
< 1761116180 407920 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also for magnetic storage, the r/w head should be kept at a steady distance from the drum, close but not touching, because the magnetizable media layer is fragile and if the head is touching it would damage the layer, and keeping the distance steady would be harder if the whole drum is moving on a rail
< 1761116192 454966 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :contact shoe, thank you
< 1761116236 874063 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rail approach is also extremely slow compared to either a multi-head drum or a disk with a seek arm
< 1761116411 344442 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well now because of the shoe I'm imagining a Cinderella story: the prince found a custom disk drive left at the stairs of his palace, whoever has the matching disk that it can read must be the princess
> 1761116464 260761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166382&oldid=166373 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+264) 10Removed comment, added two more keywords to the page + inspired by Rust
< 1761116513 477127 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the typewriter approach wouldn't work for the lgp30 due to the circulators, for true secondary storage it could work but the weight is problematic 
< 1761118447 567740 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761120945 947023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166383&oldid=166382 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+570) 10im so stupid + added emoji requirement
< 1761121561 257412 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761121574 701483 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1761121664 91358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166384&oldid=166383 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-291) 10I TAKE IT BACK
< 1761121799 103573 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1761121817 959728 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761121836 860596 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: right, I was thinking of the later disk drives that are used as backing storage rather than main memory, so you mostly read them sequentially and seek time is less important
< 1761122190 924591 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.righto.com/2024/08/minuteman-guidance-computer.html has a description about a computer that uses a multi-head disk with main memory. the part that's interesting to me is that the disk is used with at least two different delays. there's a more traditional addressed main memory part that stores both data and code instructions, where the
< 1761122191 424100 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :computer has to wait until the disk rotates to the place corresponding to the address that it wants to read from. but there are also tracks that are just one word long, so there's a read head one word behind a write head, and these store a single register value. the computer is serial, so reading the bits of a register in sequence works well.
> 1761123190 995126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166385&oldid=136506 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+45) 10/* syntax */
> 1761123444 212931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166386&oldid=166384 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+2317) 10Added stack example + classes and try/catch
> 1761124104 326897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(*)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166387&oldid=138640 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+18) 10/* Memory */
< 1761124140 100178 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761124162 559913 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello! how are we doing?
< 1761124232 502430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect most of the channel regulars are asleep, given timezones
< 1761124239 222755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and I'm not very awake myself)
< 1761124248 170921 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761124264 148179 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where are most ppl located anyways?
< 1761124352 483521 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways, is the still Turing complete if evaluated non randomly?
> 1761124393 191734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166388&oldid=136857 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
< 1761124411 984669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which language? Thue?
< 1761124420 27734 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Thupit
< 1761124437 702044 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops
< 1761124447 108938 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yea thue
< 1761124461 881450 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this comes up often enough that I wrote a page about it
< 1761124477 762003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, you can modify Thue's evaluation order to more or less anything sensible and it's still Turing-complete
< 1761124483 923342 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol thanks:]
< 1761124488 2070 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!!!
< 1761124493 461455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because a Thue program can be written to only have one replacement available at a time
< 1761124501 826268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's easier to just link to the Thupit page and use that as the proof, though
< 1761124524 125693 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761124524 631155 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thaaaanks
> 1761124551 85820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166389&oldid=166388 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+30) 10/* turing completeness proof */
> 1761124596 654303 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166390&oldid=166389 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10
< 1761124621 716914 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? wegian # Yayimhere:
< 1761124624 487865 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :wegian # Yayimhere:? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1761124639 590015 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why the heck did I prove my lambda calculus copy Turing complete with thue lol
< 1761124687 359818 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas and HackEso ... huh???
< 1761124709 40812 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh...
< 1761124720 399491 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` \? wegian # Yayimhere: I meant this one
< 1761124722 787925 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham). There's also the hypothetical Gal, which hasn't been observed yet so we're not sure where it's from.
< 1761124738 367413 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ok!!!
< 1761124741 404453 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks
> 1761124903 147840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07.chat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166391&oldid=138635 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+23) 10
> 1761124916 203401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07.chat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166392&oldid=166391 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-61) 10
< 1761124990 739963 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :re Thue, I think that's because you can translate a deterministic one-tape Turing-machine into Thue in a straightforward way, such that the program state contains the tape except there's a terminating symbol at the end and the program state is inserted where the Turing machine head is, and each rule of the Turing-machine is encoded as a Thue rule,
< 1761124991 208577 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :except that rules that read the blank tape symbol each have an extra Thue rule to extend the tape.
< 1761125070 216484 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, like ais said, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Thupit#Computational_class explains this already
> 1761125103 236225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166393&oldid=166385 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
< 1761125120 580120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I lost count of how many times I saw "Thue, except…" proofs explained (both by me and by others) and really should have written up the general page about it much earlier
< 1761125138 46500 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761125184 348492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because although the angelic-nondeterminism version of Thue (i.e. the compiler picks replacements to make the program work) is really neat, and the pick-randomly version is what commonly gets implemented in practice, the evaluation-order-doesn't-matter version is by far the easiest for proofs
> 1761125185 207782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166394&oldid=166393 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10/* syntax */
< 1761125230 260739 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and by the way, this still works for any deterministic two-stack machine with finite control, which is a convenient generalization of Turing machines
> 1761125281 363942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166395&oldid=166394 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10/* syntax */
< 1761125288 218134 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, Turing machines are Turing-complete already, so the question is, what you gain by the generalisation?
< 1761125294 111110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think something is gained but it is hard to quantify what)
< 1761125310 493015 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, quailfy what? this is qualitative, not quantitative
< 1761125428 218587 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really need to get to identifying [ ]'s computation class lol
< 1761125459 346825 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: What would you expect to see as Nix infrastructure in the nql repo?
> 1761125523 26289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166396&oldid=166386 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+49) 10Mango is pseudonatural and I realized it yesterday how did I NOT ADD IT TO PSEUDONATURAL EARLIER AHHHHHHHHHHH
< 1761125535 590022 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761125543 512211 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi!!!
< 1761125580 985457 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there are other Turing-completness proofs when you can reduce to a two-stack machine with finite control, such as for Blindfolded Arithmetic or Underload or Consumer Society. I think the general two-stack machine is in some sense more natural, because these proofs don't become easier with the Turing-machine restriction that you can't insert
< 1761125581 485274 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or delete tape symbols.
> 1761125630 21010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166397&oldid=166396 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+27) 10Guys is Mango thematic???
< 1761125637 574164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking about how three-stack machines are faster at solving certain problems than two-stack machines, likewise for four-stack, five-stack and so on
< 1761125688 69047 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also for a Turing-machine you need some extra argument to extend the tape, whereas for a two-stack machine you can just make it UB to try to access the bottom of any stack, and this makes the translations simpler
< 1761125721 41905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like my solution to that in StackFlow (a static analysis that prevents pops below the bottom of the stack)
< 1761125738 396332 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: wait, are four-stack machines faster than three-stack machines even in theory? I know a few extra tapes can be useful for practical cases, but I didn't know there were theoretical reasons for them.
> 1761125741 871083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166398&oldid=145758 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-19) 10/* syntax */
< 1761125751 407274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: I think so but am not sure
< 1761125795 10039 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean in the case when all three tapes are writable; if one of the three tapes is read-only then indeed a fourth tape helps
< 1761125803 554735 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so, I made this esolang a while back, and im stilll not sure if it "makes sense"? so I'd like to ask you all if you could take a guess: https://esolangs.org/wiki/⊥
> 1761125853 769947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166399&oldid=166398 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10
< 1761125870 259666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I don't think the spec is clear enough, in particular it doesn't explain how the axioms are used and what format they're in
< 1761125884 212633 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ah ok, makes sense
< 1761125890 916625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also ⊥ is used as the symbol for false in some types of logic, so pronouncing it as "true" will be confusing (although that might be intentional?)
< 1761125903 516607 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this argument is from TAOCP actually: Knuth argues in a multi-tape sorting algorithm for practical reasons it's best to treat the tape with the input as read-only, so he'll consider only algorithms with that constraint
< 1761125907 205455 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: pretty sure its intentional
< 1761125931 117045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: bear in mind that three tapes is more power than three stacks
< 1761125986 921652 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but that just means even the third tape is less useful
< 1761126001 450678 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmmm, I need two find an "axiom format" whatever that means lol
< 1761126005 777404 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are definitely situations where extra tapes help with constant factors (e.g. the "merge" step of mergesort done on more than two lists at once) but that's only a constant factor, I feel like O(n) cases should exist but can't think of one immedaitely
< 1761126022 331730 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does a ppprogram interpret axioms?
< 1761126024 555196 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, constant factor is believable
< 1761126032 832939 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because in principle I want every character to be valid
< 1761126075 14437 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's more, an axiom is part of a proof system – but they aren't useful without having rules for manipulating them to make proofs with them
< 1761126082 522006 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761126102 409527 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I might have confused axioms with rule's, back in the daay
< 1761126103 824864 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761126124 223181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's an example of a simple system which has axioms and inference rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamath#Language_basics
< 1761126129 681829 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!
< 1761126160 480358 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :couldnt you take it in reverse order? (having a bunch of proofs and then the program interprets an axiom)
< 1761126163 765067 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1761126167 983932 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, to me, it's maybe a bit too simple to understand easily (because the simpler a language is, the more complicatedthe programs get)
< 1761126178 900440 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761126196 275273 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yea
< 1761126211 973991 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i want the same with "only" axioms and not a specific logic system
< 1761126233 834676 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Metamath is close to that, I think – the language doesn't hardcode any axioms or inference rules
< 1761126245 865712 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ea
< 1761126247 822113 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*yea
< 1761126292 33504 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the biggest (wanted) difference is that any symbol is valid from the startt
< 1761126474 162683 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk lol
< 1761126614 704240 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill do something about it later
< 1761126622 539847 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: re Metamath, wait, how does that work, does it encode some kind of context-free grammar parser?
< 1761126646 574881 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761126693 437626 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello tromp!!!
< 1761126702 43009 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, does Metamath include a yacc in its guts or something?
< 1761126736 367294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: I don't know the language very well, the examples make it look like it matches ( and ) and otherwise just uses uninterpreted whitespace-separated tokens
< 1761126788 883789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that's effectively reverse-engineered from examples
< 1761126804 429667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I don't know for certain that that's actually how it works
< 1761126821 263621 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
> 1761126934 761692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166400 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+887) 10Created page with "'''UnCompetition''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], with the focus of trying to have an undecidable question, instead of actually being a programming language.  == Description == UnCompetition consists of a tree, full of programs in its own 
< 1761127225 100192 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761127457 6611 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761127909 125492 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761128145 653364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166401&oldid=166400 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+211) 10/* Description */
> 1761128168 93028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166402&oldid=166401 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Description */
> 1761128251 701531 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166403&oldid=166402 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+54) 10/* Description */
> 1761128315 151974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lalala14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166404&oldid=136233 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-17) 10/* memory */
> 1761128461 875051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166405&oldid=166403 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+13) 10
> 1761128530 457515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166406&oldid=166405 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+97) 10/* Description */
< 1761128578 658736 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so, I'd just like to ask, if this documentation is clear?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/UnCompetition
< 1761128612 309307 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761128742 64898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166407&oldid=148938 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+34) 10
> 1761129301 459072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166408&oldid=166397 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1) 10added empty line
< 1761130215 103207 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761130502 99803 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761131201 948148 :cbs!df2953d28a@2a03:6000:1812:100::1451 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761131202 149253 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761131202 261746 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761131202 614801 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Write error: error:80000068:system library::Connection reset by peer
< 1761131359 133370 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761132120 99866 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761132214 186780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166409&oldid=166407 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+20) 10
> 1761132359 746539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166410&oldid=148774 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10
> 1761132525 131674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166411&oldid=166408 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+46) 10Added clapback statement
< 1761132642 338806 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761132661 196542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bijection14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166412&oldid=166352 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* examples */
< 1761132698 100195 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761133010 431693 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761133028 701594 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs : hello Lord_of_life
< 1761133072 711426 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761133092 565160 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1761133147 684505 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are ya?
> 1761133311 186318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RECT4n=GLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166413&oldid=147537 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-244) 10/* adding random programs onto eachother to see if it does anything */
< 1761134540 948963 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1761134713 101298 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761135565 596460 :dcreager!a9e780c4d1@2a03:6000:1812:100::136b JOIN #esolangs dcreager :Douglas Creager
< 1761135569 26590 :cbs!df2953d28a@2a03:6000:1812:100::1451 JOIN #esolangs cbs :cbs
< 1761135569 796313 :ursa-major!114efe6c39@2a03:6000:1812:100::11f3 JOIN #esolangs ursa-major :Bailey Bjornstad
< 1761135570 889807 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
> 1761136490 476139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (B-C)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166414&oldid=158175 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+100) 10Added Bussin and Bussin X
> 1761136709 977238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166415&oldid=163368 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+102) 10Added Yappacino
> 1761136767 854361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (T-Z)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166416&oldid=166415 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+3) 10Fixed the mistake, I'm so stupid
> 1761136866 851378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166417&oldid=162760 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+81) 10Added Nonstraightforward
> 1761137055 56819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythOwO14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166418&oldid=144637 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+25) 10PythOwO likely counts as a thematic language, and the main theme is "uwu" or something? How do you name this?
< 1761137847 360996 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1761137981 101333 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1761138115 958973 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`python3 -cs='print("`python3 -cs=%r;exec(s)"%s)';exec(s)
< 1761138117 431280 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`python3 -cs='print("`python3 -cs=%r;exec(s)"%s)';exec(s)
< 1761138150 5959 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ exec-quine, based on ais's explanation yesterday
< 1761138166 509241 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: no, the documentation is not clear
> 1761138357 572365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166419&oldid=166338 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1276) 10why
< 1761138783 11648 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -eeval for q(print((q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re)))
< 1761138784 155202 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`perl -eeval for q(print((q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re)))
< 1761138804 95674 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ another eval quine
< 1761138852 805192 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -eeval for q(print(q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re))
< 1761138854 448133 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`perl -eeval for q(print(q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re))
< 1761138896 415701 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -eeval for q(print(q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re)# it's also easy to add a payload to these )
< 1761138897 421916 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`perl -eeval for q(print(q(`perl -eeval for q(b))=~s/b/lc/re)# it's also easy to add a payload to these )
< 1761138935 756525 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`python3 -cs='print("`python3 -cs=%r;exec(s)"%s)# payload in this one as well ';exec(s)
< 1761138937 279212 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`python3 -cs='print("`python3 -cs=%r;exec(s)"%s)# payload in this one as well ';exec(s)
< 1761139319 512920 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`perl -eprintf lc,lc for q(`perl -eprintf lc,lc for q(%s))
< 1761139320 653196 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​`perl -eprintf lc,lc for q(`perl -eprintf lc,lc for q(%s))
< 1761140701 693014 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761140971 95355 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, Yayimhere
< 1761141073 101714 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761141129 732914 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's this strange difference between newer and older esolangs, where older ones where more thematic, and newer one's are more abstract or conceptual(like, Underload Vs Whitespace)
< 1761141132 937450 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whyy
> 1761141304 423765 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Selt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166420&oldid=103814 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+36) 10
> 1761141579 273215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-S)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166421&oldid=166417 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+313) 10/* Add SLet */
< 1761142369 732855 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe because it's harder to come up with an original theme
< 1761142391 473250 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea, that tracks, actually
< 1761143081 178404 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok if I was to have like, a null register, just any register with a null, then what would happen, if I were to negate that register?
< 1761143242 804264 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d987:75c1:5d6f:6cf QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1761143527 662111 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761143625 764124 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761143705 99567 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761143727 281723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07=?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166422&oldid=128527 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-103) 10
< 1761143849 176184 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1761144003 899076 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello everything!
< 1761144664 971227 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761145180 690582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages (H-M)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166423&oldid=165780 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+173) 10Added Mango
> 1761145747 834873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166424&oldid=166411 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1153) 10Added progress
> 1761145996 923259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166425&oldid=166406 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10
> 1761146561 664235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166426&oldid=166425 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* Description */
> 1761146624 203403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166427&oldid=166426 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10/* Description */
< 1761146804 83293 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761146921 366626 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I don't really need anything in the upstream repo. If you choose to offer a Nix flake (flake.nix and flake.lock in the root) then I can import from that, but that's really just a fancier version of depending on an upstream git repo.
< 1761146960 574931 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Metamath's parser is hilariously simple: split on spaces, special tokens start with $. ( and ) are not matched, but the comments $( and $) are matched, as well as nesting brackets ${ and $}.
< 1761147016 566467 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's no encoding of the target logic's grammar. Instead, users have to manually construct rules for each production.
> 1761147460 165587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166428&oldid=166427 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+62) 10/* Description */
> 1761147887 142315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166429&oldid=166428 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+273) 10/* Description */
> 1761148020 214137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166430&oldid=166429 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
> 1761148382 522282 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166431&oldid=166430 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+157) 10/* Description */
> 1761148718 164664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166432&oldid=166431 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Description */
> 1761149622 321049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166433&oldid=166432 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+413) 10
> 1761149811 585693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166434&oldid=155727 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+132) 10/* Sorry? */
> 1761149855 122467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166435&oldid=166409 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+20) 10
> 1761149904 493172 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Good writing, bad execution14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166436&oldid=148738 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+15) 10
> 1761149927 355922 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Good writing, bad execution14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166437&oldid=166436 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* esolang */
> 1761150015 666667 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166438&oldid=166433 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+50) 10
> 1761150185 61185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Agecaf 5*  10New user account
> 1761150202 989301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166439&oldid=166438 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+36) 10/* Description */
> 1761150398 32868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166440&oldid=166341 5* 03Agecaf 5* (+242) 10/* Introductions */
> 1761150497 685165 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166441&oldid=166439 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-19) 10/* Description */
> 1761150725 767929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166442&oldid=166441 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-41) 10/* Description */
< 1761151153 454627 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1761151729 378265 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761151901 212408 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tayimhere: that's because DMM stopped making esolangs, and he was the one who made them thematic
> 1761152604 115034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166443&oldid=166442 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10
< 1761152614 877163 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, Homespring.
< 1761152805 679138 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, plenty of languages have themes. Monte has vats of objects slowly being turned, unfulfilled and broken promises, pulling ingredients from the freezer to bake muffins, vamping on a riff while waiting for a solo to start, and that's without talking about all of the windowing metaphors common to any TUI or GUI system.
> 1761152863 366920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166444&oldid=166435 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10/* esolangs */
< 1761152885 565646 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Those themes and analogies are apparently easier for people to understand than the brute concepts of concurrency, asynchrony, multi-stage compilation, and distributed parallelism respectively.
> 1761153039 533248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166445&oldid=166444 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+20) 10/* esolangs */
> 1761153092 916020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Sophomores From Tbilsi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166446&oldid=145475 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10
< 1761153518 552705 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: sometimes yes, but sometimes the theme actually makes the language harder to understand because it masks familiar concepts under a description with unfamiliar terminology
> 1761153752 580274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166447&oldid=155991 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10X is not a bound variable, and y is the only bound one. this also makes the code work as intended.
< 1761153900 262355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah, for sure. I generally try not to come up with new names for old abstractions. I have a different bad habit: if an algorithm is only known by its author, like Lentz's or Welford's algorithms, then I'll just call the abstraction a "lentz" or "welford". The latter's now become a "welf" in my latest codebase.
< 1761154075 954839 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761154200 822524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(,!)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166448&oldid=135600 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-244) 10/* Minor paradox */
> 1761154299 903989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Y/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166449&oldid=130424 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+31) 10
< 1761154607 100793 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761154612 42283 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, people!
< 1761154642 682113 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have a question to ask you all!
> 1761154675 11030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166450&oldid=166445 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+229) 10/* esolangs */
< 1761154727 698596 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is the most common category of languages you make? for me its concurrent language's(which makes no sense to me), and string replacement languages, which makes a lot more sense to me(I like strings)
< 1761154919 554576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761154929 849053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: for me it's mostly counter machines and tag systems
< 1761154958 429134 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: dunno, that depends on where you draw the boundary for what domain-specific thing counts as a "language" and how you count them
< 1761154978 977179 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: i see what you mean
< 1761154989 722963 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because those are generally the best sorts of language for proving Turing-completeness with, so I need a lot of them in order to make Turing-completeness proofs easy to find
< 1761155042 888531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although there are also a few languages which are very similar to tag systems but don't actually count as tag systems because they don't actually have a queue, I'm not sure how to classify those
< 1761155043 247837 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: tbh whatever you think Is more interesting for generating an answer I guess lol
< 1761155072 540331 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: i find your tendency to make languages to prove the TC'ness of other languages quite interesting
< 1761155123 537624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's one of the things I'm most interested in, out of esolang-related things (and the other things I'm interested in take much more time)
< 1761155134 218262 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the closest ive ever gotten to that is Short Minsky Machine Notation, which barely is anythingh new
> 1761155144 311131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLangOOP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166451&oldid=166273 5* 03Rasa8877 5* (+57) 10
< 1761155180 493033 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :credit to chuck esoteric tbh lol
< 1761155188 876742 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Most of my languages are actually APIs; they're patterns for calling an object and getting it to behave a certain way.
< 1761155206 332959 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: interesting
< 1761155208 685259 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761155214 737514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of my visions for big esolang-related projects, that I've had for many years now, is writing a program that, for any two esolangs in a large set of esolangs, can compile from one to the other
< 1761155227 697384 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, where the typical language is initial-coded, I'm usually final-coded. I wrote up how I look at things for the example of Brainfuck in Python 2.7: https://pypy.org/posts/2024/11/guest-post-final-encoding-in-rpython.html
< 1761155240 162527 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I feel like that itself is a language "category" of sorts
< 1761155336 247725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: my interaction with final encodings is mostly remembering they exist, forgetting how they work, then getting instantly reminded upon seeing an example
< 1761155350 147412 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they don't come up often enough for me to hold them in my memory
< 1761155351 928827 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: It is emphatically not a language, no. A language has an alphabet of symbols, strings, grammar, etc. The correspondence between initial and final encodings is deep; it turns out that computer science isn't just about languages.
< 1761155352 234534 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sadly I need to leave now, but thanks for the short interaction!
< 1761155356 297055 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1761155363 912854 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yea I know
< 1761155366 493545 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::]
> 1761155404 496805 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166452&oldid=165057 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+218) 10
< 1761155412 440404 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but bye!
< 1761155416 467647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now I'm thinking about parser visitors, which are quite similar to final encodings (but, I think, substantially different in practice)
< 1761155417 896812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye
< 1761155419 33144 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761155424 341697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: They come up for me in the context of fast interpreters and code reuse. The difficult ergonomics are why they're not more common, I think.
< 1761155483 515126 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Coming up in Python, I didn't understand why visitors were weird at first. My types didn't have to line up, or they only had to line up in the fancy dependent way rather than at first order, so visitors and walkers seemed like the same thing phrased two ways.
> 1761155487 881110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Short Minsky Machine Notation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166453&oldid=165037 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-9) 10Unstubbed, I would say it is detailed enough, for what it is
< 1761155531 571590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably more than one way to do a parser visitor
< 1761155555 530530 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the one I've seen was, effectively, equivalent to representing as XML and then sending all the start-tags and end-tags individually
< 1761155564 839894 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Paraphrasing glyph, Python doesn't really have much of a different between f(x) and x.apply(f) besides who gets execution control. But paraphrasing Mark Miller and Allen Short, whoever is applying f onto x likely has an opinion about who should get that control, particularly when f and x are not trusted code.
< 1761155580 490646 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is complex from a typing point of view because there's no static guarantee that it's correctly nested
< 1761155632 645574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a final encoding feels like a type-safe version of that
< 1761155742 360736 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now I just realised that yacc generates what is in effect a final encoding
< 1761155746 107988 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! I actually first discovered them in a similar context; I was working with a Python library that could either return a synchronous value *or* an async handle, and I eventually arranged the library so that it was agnostic as to whether values were sync.
< 1761155776 568565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the semantic actions are normally used to convert that into an initial encoding, but they can do other things too
< 1761155780 147967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep! Any time there is an interface of behaviors, there is a final-encoded algebra describing the effects of that interface.
< 1761155977 438062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no, I just realised, there is a difference
< 1761156002 969668 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm
< 1761156006 109485 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe not?
< 1761156009 356211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was wondering about evaluation order
< 1761156048 560834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but final encodings do allow a pure call-by-value approach (which is what yacc gives you)
< 1761156111 322822 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. Evaluation order only matters to the extent that one violates the encapsulation of the encoding; the caller isn't supposed to know anything about intermediate values.
< 1761156132 797881 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this makes it hard to generate visitors from them because you can't generate the list of events "start x, start y, end y, end x" from a final encoding with methods for x and y when using pure call-by-value, unless you convert to an initial encoding as a temporary
< 1761156268 595379 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, you can only generate the applicative trees on the final algebra. Since the starting and ending actions are part of the metatheory, they aren't visible to the encoding.
< 1761156326 830264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking about performance
< 1761156352 139053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :suppose I want to write a program whose input is source code in some language, and whose output is the code's parse tree in XML
> 1761156360 417411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166454&oldid=166317 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+62) 10
< 1761156361 720839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with a visitor, this is trivial to write
< 1761156368 276610 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with an initial encoding, this is just a recursive tree walk
> 1761156381 184608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166455&oldid=166454 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-11) 10
< 1761156382 179716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with a final encoding, there's an obvious way to write it but it has O(n²) performance
> 1761156395 348401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166456&oldid=166455 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1) 10
< 1761156468 286854 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What's the big difference? In e.g. Python, we could imagine that an initial emitter for XML is like xmlelement.MakeElement(tag, attrs) while a final emitter is like lambda xml: xml.makeElement(tag, attrs)
< 1761156495 638357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I mean, outputting the XML as text
< 1761156500 970295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with an initial encoding you can stream it
< 1761156524 297464 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with a final encoding you're appending and prepending, which is slow to do repeatedly using most string types
< 1761156618 894744 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, I think I'm too far up the mountain. I'll try to climb down carefully. If the input is a tree and the output is a tree then the transformation is a hylomorphism, and we can decompose that into a katamorphism and anamorphism: we walk the input tree and build an intermediate structure in memory, we consume the intermediate structure to emit pieces of output tree.
< 1761156740 390540 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The initial encoding just looks like a heap-allocated AST, while the final encoding looks like a bunch of stack records and calls.
> 1761156960 273822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166457&oldid=166365 5* 03 5* (+533) 10/* Pattern-signal */  Added more patterns
> 1761157050 319471 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166458&oldid=147377 5* 03 5* (+98) 10
< 1761157141 425497 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh! I see what you're saying. You're saying that *my specific technique* in https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/6aebcb5b16de8d6572a5d263647dfd0b334dcc0c/bf/bf.py#L39-L47 is quadratic-time due to strings. Yeah, it would be if RPython didn't optimize that common case. When I do this in Cammy, I pass a list instead, using the string-builder pattern; RPython also has a StringBuilder helper.
< 1761157238 437717 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or, if I wanted to be less pure, I could write e.g. def join(self, l, r): print l; print r;; def loop(self, bfs): print '['; print bfs; print ']'
< 1761157271 228798 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Appending to my buffer is quadratic. Appending to Somebody Else's Buffer is linear. Our machine models are cracked~
< 1761157327 942915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: not just you, other people have made that mistake too
< 1761157417 335104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. the «def join(self, l, r): print l; print r;; def loop(self, bfs): print '['; print bfs; print ']'» version is, when call-by-value, either quadratic or doesn't work (because the loop body either has to be printed before the loop itself, or has to be made into a string so that it can be printed after the [ of the starting loop)
< 1761157453 97726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to make it work you have to create an initial encoding as a temporary
< 1761157468 248414 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you can do it in linear time though, it's just a big ugly process in two or three passes. first you create a tree of string snippets that you want to concatenate, creating a tree node instead of catenating the strings. then you do iterate on the leaves of the tree to make a flat list of those strings, then you join the strings in that list. this last sentence can be either one or two pass. 
< 1761157501 355389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh yes, but that's basically the initial-encoding-as-temporary approach
< 1761157511 524399 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably
< 1761157542 90204 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my usual way to do it is to use reverse-Polish as an intermediary, which a final encoding can generate efficiently without actually returning any values
> 1761157613 81284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166459 5* 03 5* (+853) 10Started the page
> 1761157667 647506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166460&oldid=166459 5* 03 5* (+72) 10
< 1761157810 367097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That precise issue is fixed with an intermediate lambda-binding. No flavor of Python will let me do it easily, though; it will always look like an initial encoding because there's an explicit allocation. In Scheme the lambda would just go on the stack with all the other activated lambdas.
< 1761157834 6139 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oleg has words about this; it bites him in SML too.
< 1761157861 738038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, you can return closures/thunks and make it work that way
< 1761157889 902410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeha, that works too, it's just not my usual style
< 1761157893 365382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although the implicit allocation that that needs still bothers me, it's O(n) now but the constant factors are bad)
< 1761157923 474220 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I'm not some sort of purist. Cammy's "kamis" solver uses plain strings as initial encoding and is constantly building new strings by concatenation; it turns out to be easier to let genes be strings and do recombination with string operations than to try to preserve type information and do well-typed recombination.
> 1761157980 914587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EarScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166461 5* 03Agecaf 5* (+12957) 10EarScript is a programming language focused on the manipulation of integers.
< 1761158054 385074 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what the best practical performance you can get for a model where you can create immutable strings, and concatenate them without losing access to the original
< 1761158087 508566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, indeed, just start with a set of strings representing characters, and concatenate them
< 1761158097 439649 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean general closures are nice to have, but in practical non-esoteric code, almost all the times when I write a closure, it's just the kind that refers to still active stack frames and thus don't survive the context that created them
< 1761158099 682807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is an obvious O(1) approach but the constant factors are terrible
< 1761158100 948871 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rope, O(n log n), don't overthink it. RPython folks did a bunch of experiments and plain old rope ended up being the best by far.
< 1761158125 275398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it maybe that O(n) or O(n log n) approaches are better in practice
< 1761158152 571342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah. And in final encodings it's especially annoying because I really just want a reader-monad transformation that attaches some sort of context, or a state-monad transformation that will thread a state through the control flow, for precisely the reasons ais523 has given.
> 1761158160 883107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166462&oldid=166312 5* 03Agecaf 5* (+16) 10
< 1761158251 482244 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There's also a writer-monad transformation that collects results into a monoid, but that just kicks the can: how do we have an efficient list? Difference lists are what we've been talking about, and they require lots of heap allocations; so much for sticking to stack!)
< 1761158358 366835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for the string concatenation thing, when the concatenated string is long then I most likely don't actually construct the string, rather I print it streaming from the structured representation, and it's the structured representation that contains all the chunks of the string that I have in memory. I admit I haven't written a fully recursive one of these for a long time (unless you count 
< 1761158364 376247 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :read-modify-write with an existing XML or JSON library), only ones with limited depth, but I think this applies to recursive too.
< 1761158471 923502 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is the related problem of making efficient text transducers, which are generic functions with type (String -> String) -> (String -> String). Most of the standard list- and string-manipulation tools are liftable to transducers, so it'd be nice to have a unifying theory of them, but they seem to be quite opaque in general.
< 1761158503 405769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, there's an alternative approach which involves running the parser twice, once to work out where in the output the output generated by each nonterminal of input goes, then once to write it
< 1761158513 328348 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is probably slower but it's interesting that it exists
< 1761158524 445796 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be faster if the allocator is slow
> 1761158699 121994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EarScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166463&oldid=166461 5* 03Agecaf 5* (+184) 10Added categories
< 1761159881 838998 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, I actually had a program (now unmaintained) that ran the same parser twice on the same input, but not for the reason that you mention, because the file that it parses is easier to parse with no deep recursion and prefix notation everywhere
< 1761159890 287030 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/and prefix/and with prefix/
< 1761159930 459246 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's because I chose the format of the file parsed and I wrote the program that writes it, so obviously I made it easy to parse)
> 1761159956 491525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EarScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166464&oldid=166463 5* 03Agecaf 5* (+0) 10Corrected a to b
> 1761160052 452456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EarScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166465&oldid=166464 5* 03Agecaf 5* (-1) 10/* Description */
> 1761160763 963701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ivava14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166466&oldid=166332 5* 03Ivava 5* (+14) 10/* Esolangs list */
< 1761162259 416913 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.48.125 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1761164835 114158 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761164842 679712 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1761164960 336791 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1761165828 631007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166467&oldid=140192 5* 03Corbin 5* (+154) 10/* Running Monte */ I fixed the flake's compatibility with nix-run and now the REPL can be directly loaded from The Cloud.
< 1761169280 895906 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now I made ASN.1 DER parser in PostScript, too. (Encoding is not implemented yet)
< 1761170213 549480 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761170490 319077 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I also wrote JSON parser in PostScript, but my opinion is that DER is generally better format than JSON, even though many people prefer to use JSON or one of its variants (which help a little bit but not much, and sometimes add additional things that are worse).)
< 1761170906 954331 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761178226 387275 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1761180971 918757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166468&oldid=164611 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+61) 10
> 1761181262 88301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166469&oldid=166468 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+37) 10
< 1761185737 111652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1761186033 631629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761190685 298267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166470&oldid=166443 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+43) 10/* Description */
> 1761190795 690058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166471&oldid=166462 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+19) 10/* U */
> 1761190816 922587 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166472&oldid=166471 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* U */
> 1761191789 857355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166473&oldid=166470 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+299) 10/* Description */
< 1761197661 159069 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761198815 634119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The Sophomores From Tbilsi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166474&oldid=166446 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+50) 10/* semantics and syntax */
> 1761198954 846796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166475&oldid=140570 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+71) 10/* commands and semantics */
> 1761199007 916789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166476&oldid=166475 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+46) 10/* commands and semantics */
> 1761199173 75939 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166477&oldid=166476 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10
> 1761199371 83181 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166478&oldid=166477 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+66) 10/* commands and semantics */
> 1761199455 311684 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166479&oldid=166478 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+120) 10/* commands and semantics */
> 1761199635 803763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166480&oldid=166479 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+221) 10/* commands and semantics */
> 1761199781 127896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166481&oldid=166480 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+53) 10
< 1761201549 766165 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761202358 682286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761203085 986228 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761205421 655220 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166482&oldid=166481 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* translation to SKI combinatory logic(WIP) */
> 1761206062 673310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5*  10New user account
> 1761206709 43257 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166483&oldid=166440 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+244) 10
> 1761207307 86212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zaydenypersony223914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166484 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+91) 10Created page with "hi guys, im zaydenypersony. i make stuff in turbowarp. i dont really have much else to say."
> 1761207475 721219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166485&oldid=166483 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+116) 10
> 1761208883 326358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuk14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166486 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
> 1761208974 891219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166487 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
> 1761209017 749260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166488 5* 03Zaydenypersony2239 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
< 1761210496 99924 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761210528 129749 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello! short question, is SKI still TC if K is K x y = y instead of K x y = x?
> 1761210561 789246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166489&oldid=166482 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-148) 10/* translation to SKI combinatory logic(WIP) */
> 1761210888 693738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Srry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166490&oldid=139376 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-422) 10Blanked the page
> 1761210938 264326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sorry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166491&oldid=166340 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+431) 10/* information */
> 1761210996 522195 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Sorry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166492&oldid=166491 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* the change */
> 1761211024 11567 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166493&oldid=166472 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+11) 10This AWESOME lanuguage was not on there.
> 1761211041 969443 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166494&oldid=166493 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1) 10
> 1761211079 733749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Srry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166495&oldid=166490 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+19) 10Redirected page to [[Sorry]]
< 1761211229 671234 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761211254 100818 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761211513 860874 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166496&oldid=151680 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* syntax */
> 1761211538 258811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166497&oldid=166496 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* syntax */
> 1761211621 261194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:B914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166498 5* 03JIT 5* (+391) 10Created page with "This page has some vague words here so maybe I'll fix that later also this esolang is a bit different because its really big and snowballed out of my grasp into its own weird thing --~~~~"
> 1761211639 190501 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166499 5* 03JIT 5* (+8373) 10Created page with "B9 is an esolang by [[User:JIT]], 2025  ''"What if... OH GOD NO! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"'' : -[[User:JIT]], 2025  
 ''It's perfectly benign! don't read the text above this, its fine! :DDD :-[[User:JIT]], 2025'' 
 {| class="wikit
> 1761211690 696481 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03JIT 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Nothing Program.png10]]": the nothing program for B9
> 1761211721 639943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166501&oldid=166497 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-37) 10/* turing completeness proof */
> 1761211785 262840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166502&oldid=166494 5* 03JIT 5* (+9) 10
> 1761211809 389018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166503&oldid=166501 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+23) 10
< 1761211941 133542 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, doesnt matter
< 1761212022 247995 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761212068 104110 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761212084 171767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Double Helix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166504&oldid=92910 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+149) 10
> 1761212306 222871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166505&oldid=166434 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+101) 10/* Will you contribute to my X-script? */
< 1761212895 101574 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761216139 339535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Je4yiwau 5*  10New user account
> 1761218552 934608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166506&oldid=154677 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+173) 10
< 1761219472 316934 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761219499 417185 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1761219548 973035 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1761222106 394685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B914]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166507&oldid=166499 5* 03JIT 5* (+1) 10
> 1761222955 469207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166508&oldid=166485 5* 03Goodbyevoidhelloworld1 5* (+401) 10
> 1761223105 480733 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Exec14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166509 5* 03None1 5* (+2077) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}}'''exec'', an esolang invented by [[User:None1]], is similar to [[Python]]. ==Type system== Unlike Python, there's only one type in exec: {{cd|str}}. This type is way more powerful than the one in Python in the following ways: * Character codes: Character codes 
> 1761223116 495892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166510&oldid=166506 5* 03None1 5* (+294) 10/* SLet */
> 1761223393 271382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166511&oldid=166510 5* 03None1 5* (+330) 10/* SLet */
< 1761223891 214600 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1761223964 298828 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1761224053 660356 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Byte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166512&oldid=137290 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* types */
< 1761224138 101232 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761224283 199860 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello people!!!
< 1761224294 844884 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you all, and are you working on anything?
> 1761224680 752623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ThingLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166513&oldid=164619 5* 03Rasa8877 5* (-265) 10
> 1761224910 606135 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166514&oldid=166511 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+145) 10/* SLet */
< 1761227192 379766 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is anybody willing to try and help me prove υλ Turing complete? ive been trying SKI, and theoretically its possible, but I cant *quite* get it right
> 1761227558 951577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Func()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166515&oldid=139125 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* examples */
> 1761228991 89215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166516 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1434) 10Created page with "'''Utral''' is an [[esolang]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]], to answer her very important question, "What if there was a negative null", and this answer's this question! It is based in [[Lambda Calculus]], however that is only in underlying calculation, and not
> 1761229026 130844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166517&oldid=166516 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-5) 10
> 1761229037 375656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166518&oldid=166517 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-5) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229233 602049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166519&oldid=166518 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+176) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229252 799164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166520&oldid=166519 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229263 68086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166521&oldid=166520 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-10) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229274 984947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166522&oldid=166521 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229374 251367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166523&oldid=166522 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+230) 10/* syntax */
> 1761229800 221973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166524&oldid=166523 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+111) 10
> 1761229928 49486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166525&oldid=166524 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* Info */
< 1761230016 158089 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1761230036 938555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166526&oldid=166502 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+11) 10/* U */
< 1761230051 88592 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello Sgeo!!!
< 1761230065 748296 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761230068 128002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166527&oldid=166526 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* U */
> 1761230903 784771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166528&oldid=166450 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+11) 10/* esolangs */
> 1761231001 986753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166529&oldid=166525 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+56) 10/* Info */
> 1761231059 261309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166530&oldid=166529 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+95) 10/* Info */
> 1761231111 62324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166531&oldid=166530 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Etmology */
> 1761231133 926484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166532&oldid=166531 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Info */
> 1761231179 158215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166533&oldid=166532 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+26) 10/* Info */
> 1761231282 534838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166534&oldid=166533 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-236) 10/* Info */
> 1761231299 728038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166535&oldid=166534 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* Info */
> 1761231316 118993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166536&oldid=166535 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* Info */
> 1761231533 635811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166537&oldid=166536 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+186) 10/* Info */
> 1761231749 246262 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166538&oldid=166537 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+44) 10/* Info */
> 1761231880 108396 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lambda Calculus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166539 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+29) 10Redirected page to [[Lambda-Calculus]]
> 1761231895 734462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lambda Calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166540&oldid=166539 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10Changed redirect target from [[Lambda-Calculus]] to [[Lambda-calculus]]
< 1761231899 468506 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761231909 680321 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and hello tromp!
> 1761232477 412931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kicky BCT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166541&oldid=138300 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-190) 10/* what has changed? */
> 1761232483 596843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kicky BCT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166542&oldid=166541 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-200) 10/* random examples */
> 1761232561 282438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kicky BCT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166543&oldid=166542 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+95) 10/* what has changed? */
> 1761232849 645456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lambda Calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166544&oldid=166540 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10fix double redirect
> 1761232871 580732 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kicky BCT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166545&oldid=166543 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+33) 10/* what has changed? */
< 1761232876 549839 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761232918 19571 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are ya? and (arguably more relevant to this channel) has anything caught your interest recently, or are you working on smth
> 1761233031 579071 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Not14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166546&oldid=149157 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+43) 10/* why tho */
> 1761234159 372716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166547&oldid=166538 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+33) 10/* Info */
> 1761234305 852376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166548&oldid=166469 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+6) 10
> 1761234435 476534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166549&oldid=138938 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10
> 1761234499 296761 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166550&oldid=166549 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+19) 10/* examples */
> 1761234609 793595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166551&oldid=166550 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10
> 1761234740 555180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166552&oldid=166551 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+41) 10/* syntax */
> 1761234763 422857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166553&oldid=166552 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10
> 1761234858 53850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BuzzFish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166554&oldid=137845 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+119) 10/* the problem */
< 1761235006 829384 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere, nothing esolang related. A lot of my interest lately has been retrocomputing. A lot of stuff that seems esoteric to modern eyes. Memory mapped arithmetic
> 1761235022 710074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07013414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166555&oldid=150803 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-344) 10
> 1761235052 324974 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07013414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166556&oldid=166555 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-19) 10
< 1761235189 399247 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sgeo: makes sense, but cool nonetheless
< 1761235250 953415 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :On the IBM 305 RAMAC, there's one accumulator track (with 10 accumulators). Moving into L adds the moved stuff into the accumulator, and moving into M subtracts
< 1761235273 885282 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting
< 1761235313 159466 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for me, what ive been into is proving UnCompetition Turing complete
< 1761235327 110278 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is so fjcuking hard for some reason
< 1761235453 852518 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: whether the flipped K is TC is an interesting question. To prove it, you would look for a term in your calculus that is equivalent to the normal K. I tried for a bit and couldn't find one, though.
< 1761235476 48444 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761235479 538731 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :And if it is not TC, I don't remember how to prove that either, but someone here might know.
< 1761235507 824558 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would just seem weird to me that flipping the order of input would be a very small change for such a large change
< 1761235517 42905 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I did find a solution to my problem, however)
< 1761235547 245244 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, conceivably it might be TC without being able to encode all of lambda calculus)
< 1761235559 419167 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea thats true too
< 1761235619 329406 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lambda Calculus is one of the most annoying concepts to work with
< 1761235623 533595 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not that weird--the BCKW calculus has one combinator C, whose purpose is to flip the order of input
< 1761235635 304182 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761235650 702653 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :more weird as in the part where it deletes the TC'ness lol
< 1761235660 149257 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yea
> 1761236212 419788 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166557&oldid=166548 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+17) 10
> 1761236224 436812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166558&oldid=166557 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-47) 10
> 1761236372 376554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uncompetition14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166559 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+27) 10Redirected page to [[UnCompetition]]
> 1761236559 460472 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166560&oldid=166558 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+13) 10
> 1761237037 308577 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166561&oldid=166457 5* 03 5* (+241) 10/* Pattern-signaled */
> 1761237092 64253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Truttle114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166562&oldid=155632 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+372) 10
> 1761237148 790485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166563&oldid=166561 5* 03 5* (+68) 10
> 1761238208 111937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Adofaiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166564&oldid=166563 5* 03 5* (+416) 10Added programs
> 1761238341 585942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166565&oldid=166410 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+81) 10
> 1761238492 941087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166566&oldid=166565 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+209) 10/* Burn */
> 1761238528 31738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166567&oldid=157267 5* 03 5* (+54) 10
> 1761238553 740457 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166568&oldid=166567 5* 03 5* (+2) 10
> 1761238612 868207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07STSAASIGFE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166569 5* 03 5* (+55) 10Redirected page to [[Settheorysucksandassuchisgreatforesolangs]]
> 1761239068 516827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166570&oldid=166473 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+46) 10/* Description */
> 1761239242 498261 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166571&oldid=166570 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+80) 10/* Description */
> 1761239931 757095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166572&oldid=166460 5* 03 5* (+632) 10Added programs and categories; finished up page
< 1761239953 621973 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761239989 576006 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
> 1761240035 208435 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166573&oldid=166571 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+585) 10/* Description */
> 1761240073 839107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166574&oldid=166572 5* 03 5* (+17) 10/* Programs */
> 1761240115 832104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166575&oldid=166573 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+43) 10/* Description */
> 1761240171 66878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166576&oldid=166575 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-10) 10/* Description */
> 1761240312 474547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166577&oldid=166574 5* 03 5* (+24) 10
< 1761240657 983645 :APic!~apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1761241131 100568 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.123.213 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761241358 492611 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Befunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166578&oldid=151055 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+489) 10/* How many hello world programs can you make? */ new section
> 1761243198 80697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Pandaqwanda/pixeLang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166579&oldid=114127 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+109) 10I want answers plz
< 1761243465 380738 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761243582 896985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166580&oldid=164493 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+57) 10I suggested a name
> 1761243837 248122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166581&oldid=166568 5* 03 5* (+16) 10
> 1761243928 942419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166582&oldid=166505 5* 03 5* (+131) 10
< 1761244027 101643 :SuperSMG5!~SuperSMG5@50-55-34-30.7ea49e6b1b660c42e52a12efd1071989.ip.frontiernet.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] SuperSMG5
< 1761244035 105485 :SuperSMG5!~SuperSMG5@50-55-34-30.7ea49e6b1b660c42e52a12efd1071989.ip.frontiernet.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761244074 896780 :SuperSMG5!~SuperSMG5@50-55-34-30.7ea49e6b1b660c42e52a12efd1071989.ip.frontiernet.net QUIT :Client Quit
> 1761244158 443913 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166583&oldid=166577 5* 03 5* (+40) 10truth machine
> 1761245769 190502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Smalltix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166584&oldid=166336 5* 03Corbin 5* (+57) 10Influences, influenced.
< 1761248017 308103 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 JOIN #esolangs * :op_4
< 1761248206 246147 :mynery!~myname@152.53.22.209 JOIN #esolangs * :myname
< 1761248496 510197 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761248496 552278 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761248497 193178 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 NICK :op_4
> 1761248630 285688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Jay 5*  10New user account
> 1761248768 494358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vixen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166585 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3987) 10WIP for my fork of Smalltix. I've included the fundamental methods if anybody else is interested.
> 1761249980 650411 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vixen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166586&oldid=166585 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2426) 10/* Core */ Explain how to clone and send.
> 1761250537 189655 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166587&oldid=166419 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+226) 10
< 1761251086 464845 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761252239 477334 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03RobbyZero 5*  10New user account
> 1761252678 123272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166588&oldid=166508 5* 03RobbyZero 5* (+199) 10Added my introduction
> 1761252729 690637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166589&oldid=166587 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+205) 10
> 1761253095 892638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166590&oldid=166588 5* 03Jay 5* (+32) 10
> 1761254016 37820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NDBall14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166591&oldid=134303 5* 03RocketRace 5* (+1) 10spelling
< 1761254071 300203 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761254187 903642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166592&oldid=166424 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+576) 10Stuff
> 1761254458 31775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166593&oldid=166589 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+106) 10a remark
> 1761256413 879040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166594&oldid=143502 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+510) 10the wiki is usually quite active
< 1761257781 418470 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761259153 939812 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Quit: Quittin'.
< 1761259253 307652 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1761259353 692034 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
< 1761260689 302958 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1761263488 198718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AntiDupCall14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166595&oldid=159825 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+262) 10Supplemented several page category tags and added a hyperlink to my implementation on GitHub.
< 1761263697 136907 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :
< 1761264758 347484 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761264811 848622 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761265766 278619 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1761268984 154412 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166596&oldid=166560 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+162) 10
< 1761269035 486215 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wanted to make a new OID arc to be standardized by ITU or ISO (preferably ITU, although I have been told that is nearly impossible to actually tell them anything), which is combining an existing identification (of one of many kinds, e.g. international telephone numbers, internet domain names, ICAO airport codes, etc) with a timestamp, and in some cases also automatic delegation.
< 1761269043 355663 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :How would you do such a thing like that?
> 1761269801 186646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166597&oldid=166596 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+69) 10
> 1761277914 571996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166598&oldid=166582 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Revert */
> 1761277962 248301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166599&oldid=166598 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+144) 10/* Sorry? */
< 1761278017 906824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm looking through my mailserver logs, and there are a surprising number of HTTP requests in them – I think it's the AI scraperbots that have found a list of mailservers somewhere, and are just trying to interpret them as web addresses (domain:port) and trying to scrape a page from them
> 1761279212 630586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166600&oldid=166576 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1082) 10/* Description */
< 1761280193 234758 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's not unreasonable, if they send a HTTP request then whatever server is on the other side will often send an error reply that can let you figure out what kind of service it is, and you can send a more useful request the next time
< 1761280211 873230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a couple of domains that are sending the same requests over and over again, though
< 1761280234 569138 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that's less useful probably
< 1761280270 909591 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if it's on port 25
< 1761280349 681683 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder why they think that the wiki is inactive. We don't really rotate the featured-article box, but that's the only thing that isn't changing on the front page.
> 1761281500 791774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166601&oldid=166600 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+39) 10/* Computational class */
< 1761281751 686654 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have also seen HTTP requests on the SMTP server, on my computer, too.
< 1761281867 100504 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761281893 494045 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, people!
< 1761281903 557799 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :or what people there may be
> 1761282038 289182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166602&oldid=166547 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+20) 10/* Info */
> 1761282047 401772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Utral14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166603&oldid=166602 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* Info */
< 1761282097 15394 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1761282134 495478 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Welcome back.
< 1761282144 309191 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!
< 1761282178 413075 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought about your question on altering the K combinator for a bit. Let's say that K' x y = y; From S, what can we do? Well, note that K' S y = y, so K'S is equivalent to I.
< 1761282192 595982 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761282247 926152 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I looked at it for a while, but I wasn't quite able to find B, C, or K; any of those would completely answer the question. I did find O and M and a few other common combinators, though.
< 1761282261 710192 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm interesting
< 1761282269 368200 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :also
< 1761282284 662766 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :we could just shorten the reverse k to RK
< 1761282284 729808 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I didn't try very hard. Maybe you can find them?
< 1761282292 726259 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can *try*
< 1761282316 723884 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you are a lot better than me, so I will probably not get much further than you
< 1761282324 245006 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it is quite interesting
< 1761282335 806654 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd avoid reusing letters. R, the robin, is a combinator of BCI already.
< 1761282347 893110 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1761282355 477924 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh i didnt realize actually
< 1761282403 316980 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, the reason im asking, is because of the fact that this reverse K, is actually just the church numeral for 0
< 1761282416 838816 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm not better than you, just more well-researched. I bet that if I go get my copy of Smullyan off the shelf, I could find some words about this variant of K. Perhaps he has an exercise where he proves that it's equivalent to K, or where he proves that it's useless. It wouldn't be the first time; earlier in the year, that same book taught me that GI and BCI are equivalent.
< 1761282441 926538 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761282493 132332 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah! Careful with that. Lambda calculus is done with the assumption that we can build any applicative tree we want; combinatory logic is more restricted. They aren't the same system, even though they have a lot in common because they both have applicative trees.
< 1761282527 690633 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh they arent? I actually just assumed so, because SKI often is represented as lambda calculus expressions
< 1761282533 363046 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :(like in jot for example)
< 1761282653 810354 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My opinion on this is that a combinator is very limited; a combinator builds an applicative tree from its inputs. A closed lambda term, more generally, builds another lambda term from its inputs; a lambda term can have applications and also it can have abstractions.
< 1761282689 68287 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761282704 511442 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, not everybody agrees with me. See [[closed lambda term]] for what we *do* agree upon.
< 1761282713 711885 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1761282777 38945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, this means that Iota isn't a combinator. Neither is Alpha. They are closed lambda terms, though. Jot isn't a combinator, but a way to encode certain lambda terms.
< 1761282791 61639 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761282840 475974 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :also if your wondering what I need this for, I need it to prove υλ TC
< 1761282886 895856 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have no idea what's going on in that page, sorry.
< 1761282895 413170 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :no its fine
< 1761282909 687009 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ive figured it out anyways lol)
< 1761282947 686788 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is however still an interesting question
< 1761283156 918641 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways
< 1761283166 565118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe. The standard proof that SKI can encode lambda terms, given at [[combinatory logic]], revolves around matching each of S, I, and K to different possible terms: S gives application, I gives De Bruijn index 0, and K gives constants. K' gives the ability to discard an argument and return I, which isn't the same as holding a constant.
< 1761283197 825606 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :im gonna go and make myself go crazy with uncompetition lol
< 1761283200 782524 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I bet that a computer search could quickly settle the question, but if the answer is a big tree filled with lots of S then that won't be enlightening.
< 1761283207 191328 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :yees
< 1761283214 9876 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact
< 1761283266 171615 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to play more with Smalltix. I've documented my own calling convention at [[Vixen]]. Treating directories as objects is surprisingly fruitful.
< 1761283278 637838 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool!
< 1761283340 784053 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, does anyone know an esolang, where every function, no matter with input or no, will evaluate to a different output
< 1761283456 800514 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Another use to attack your ally in Pokemon is: if you do not want to attack your opponent(s) for some reason (e.g. Destiny Bond), especially if your ally has Protect.
> 1761283517 69619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166604&oldid=166601 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+182) 10/* Computational class */
> 1761283550 502946 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166605&oldid=166604 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Computational class */
> 1761283727 191892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underload14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166606&oldid=158524 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+13) 10
> 1761283772 828363 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166607&oldid=166503 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-8) 10
> 1761283865 279244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Xx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166608&oldid=166607 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+13) 10/* turing completeness proof */
< 1761284034 222732 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-24-103.umts.vodacom.co.za QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761284239 100244 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761284374 701128 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: That's not a language thing; can you see why?
< 1761284388 341325 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION forcing nuance to develop

< 1761284412 116866 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh?
< 1761284420 778164 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry I got disconnected
< 1761284691 553961 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what were you saying?
< 1761284828 784564 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Evaluation of functions isn't a linguistic thing. We just pretend that they're connected.
< 1761284854 6401 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761284924 76170 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, is there a family of functions where each function evaluates to a different output (on a fixed input)? Yes.
< 1761284949 456299 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but is there one without any input
< 1761284955 195621 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd ask what kind of programming *system* you want, not just what kind of *language* you're using to express computations in that system.
< 1761284966 865568 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761284990 965585 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Functions always have inputs. When we say that a function doesn't have an input, we mean that its input domain is a set with one element, and we always use that one element as the input.
< 1761285016 965169 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea thats true
< 1761285018 757150 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :data 1 = *; f * = 42 -- f "doesn't have an input"
< 1761285021 111689 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I say true a lot
< 1761285023 882679 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BUT
< 1761285111 408760 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i want a system where routing myself an infinite family of functions where "each function has a sort of "inertia", where they even without input, give an output" where "without input" is, a uniform input
< 1761285143 608171 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is also Turing complete
< 1761285181 881812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the interesting way of interpreting this is "is it possible to design a language so that there's some specific input that you can give to any function, and it causes every possible function to return a different output?"
< 1761285196 144259 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact
< 1761285207 717030 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one example of a way you might do that would be to have an input that you can give to a function and it causes the function to print its own source code
< 1761285227 988026 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or in principle, the system this is based off of, a function can return multiple outputs, as it is semi-ambiguous what it should return
< 1761285242 183409 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or a random one of these outputs)
< 1761285245 780877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, this sort of thing is difficult to work into a language because that sort of value can't correctly be manipulated using functions
< 1761285253 227753 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also hello ais523!
< 1761285268 628144 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea. thats true.
< 1761285278 400238 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a quine function kinda?
< 1761285287 729923 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or a quine input technically
< 1761285300 431105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've had esolang ideas where I wanted to do this sort of thing but was unable to design a coherent language around them (mostly based on object-oriented-like languages where objects were functions that took messages/methodcalls as arguments)
< 1761285319 383253 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestimng
< 1761285322 120737 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*interesting
< 1761285325 360423 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just far too easy to end up with two requiremens that conflict with each other
< 1761285350 806904 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :again, this is all based off of an already existing language
< 1761285412 815396 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: requierments for the language/system, or for this input?
< 1761285417 544433 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or for the function(s)
< 1761285422 847988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the language design
< 1761285430 541596 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea ok
> 1761285883 341918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166609&oldid=166605 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+60) 10/* Computational class */
< 1761286527 148962 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761288018 979623 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761290477 445433 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1761291438 698745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166610&oldid=165415 5* 03JIT 5* (+41) 10
< 1761292121 101485 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761292369 772425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B914]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166611&oldid=166507 5* 03JIT 5* (+27) 10
< 1761292446 583839 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761293027 101231 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761293417 101001 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761293490 134281 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761297164 568387 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: hold on, in https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-08.html#lvw you specifically told me that the Smullyan Mockingbird book does not give a name to KI. doesn't that mean a priori that you won't find the theorem of what you can generate from S and KI (and possibly I, I don't remember how Yayimhere asked exactly) in that book?
< 1761299484 105053 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761299907 635363 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I is just ꓘS or ꓘꓘ (where ꓘ = KI))
< 1761300255 101830 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761300311 376283 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 PRIVMSG #esolangs :K is True and KI is False
< 1761300346 532766 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 PRIVMSG #esolangs :True x y = x and False x y = y
< 1761300368 99702 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761300386 565620 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :strerror: is this related to the reverse K? I have not been here I got dissconnected
< 1761300522 247636 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: yes. Though I've just picked a name for it, not found anything new about it.
< 1761300529 692050 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761300534 998773 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it does make sense naming wise
< 1761300579 825779 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm it's “Lisu letter kha” — “a language of the Lisu people in Yunnan, China”
< 1761300630 254836 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761300648 517101 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well sorry Lisu people, your letter has now become K
< 1761300650 179842 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761300658 25740 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I say lol way too much
< 1761300672 247191 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: that sounds suggestive of some kind of de Morgan duality? Though maybe only if we also flip S.
< 1761300750 753781 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :SK is universal, Sꓘ  may or may not be, and I suppose ꓘƧ ought to be for some Ƨ
< 1761300772 103381 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeaa
< 1761300813 954655 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its would be quite interesting if Sꓘ AND K Ƨ are TC
> 1761300874 874086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0795-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166612&oldid=134713 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* how it works */
> 1761300904 607053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:95-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166613&oldid=156965 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+44) 10/* About addition arithmetic command */
< 1761300963 441637 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think S,False is not TC
< 1761300996 860210 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :False?
< 1761301013 574299 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 PRIVMSG #esolangs :False = K I = S K
< 1761301025 105656 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
> 1761301522 531240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166614 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+603) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} '''2I1IF''' is a family of languages, based off of [[Uncompetition]]. == Concept == For a language to qualify for being a part of 2I1IF, it must be able to be interpreted as "An infinite amount of inputs, and a single universal function", and "An infinit
< 1761301843 91336 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
> 1761302140 90989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166615&oldid=166614 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+220) 10
> 1761302149 117091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166616&oldid=166615 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-8) 10
> 1761302607 211017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166617&oldid=166616 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+517) 10/* Concept */
< 1761303215 561059 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1761303456 942097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166618&oldid=166617 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* Concept */
< 1761305030 907097 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761305030 976005 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761305887 823381 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1761305938 291044 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761307118 81576 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1761308486 36110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also did some experimentation with S and KI, and mixing them didn't seem like it was giving substantial capabilities over S on its own (e.g. S (KI) a b = (KIb)(ab) = I(ab) = ab, so S (KI) = I; and (KI) S also = I)
< 1761308525 545441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this isn't a proof that it's S + KI is sub-TC, but it is pretty discouraging and makes it unlikely that adding KI to S would make it Turing-complete
< 1761308610 338543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :S S (KI) a = (Sa)(KIa) = S a I; S a I b = (ab)(Ib) = abb; thus S S (KI) = W and that is giving you a small amount of power that S doesn't have on its own
< 1761308665 159708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but W (KI) and (KI) W are both also equivalent to I so this doesn't really help much
< 1761308858 808403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode ꓘ
< 1761308861 214584 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+A4D8 LISU LETTER KHA]
< 1761309104 618912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761309518 451390 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:cd8f:ea15:2cfa:e4a8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761312029 303075 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761312245 360426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166619&oldid=166618 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+14) 10
> 1761312689 938301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166620&oldid=166528 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10/* esolangs */
> 1761312725 519626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166621&oldid=166619 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+41) 10
< 1761313172 958543 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1761313286 349023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166622&oldid=166609 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10
> 1761313496 449671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166623&oldid=166622 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+102) 10/* Computational class */
> 1761314617 779185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166624&oldid=166623 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+556) 10first Uncompetition program!
< 1761314657 100779 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761314674 265515 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello people, ive been on and off for a while, but now ill be more permanently on!
< 1761314807 392853 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just subjected myself to the worst manual interpretation of a program ive ever done, but im happy I did so
> 1761315332 94728 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166625 5* 03 5* (+101) 10Created page with "so @yayimhere what do you think? -~~~~"
< 1761315401 100232 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761315407 835294 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
> 1761315459 633150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166626&oldid=166625 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+259) 10
< 1761315478 221154 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello, vista_user (lol)!!!
< 1761315483 870807 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yo.
< 1761315487 404774 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you think about it interphase g2 stage in mitosis is basically running `chkdsk` on the dna
< 1761315497 623399 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or `fsck`)
< 1761315507 59829 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uuuuuuh
< 1761315509 45138 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761315511 669333 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1761315537 473006 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :literally check it for errors
< 1761315547 761309 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :basically what both fsck and chkdsk do
< 1761315566 101079 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is fsck?
< 1761315579 606515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"file system check"
< 1761315596 599857 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and chkdsk?
< 1761315617 494592 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :check disk
< 1761315620 531890 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"check disk", this one is for dos and windows
< 1761315631 752531 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :literallh same command but batch instead of bash
< 1761315652 97367 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fsck is unixoid
< 1761315676 895379 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yes, fsck can be more stuff other than a way to avoid the f word in moderated chatrooms lol)
< 1761315690 562201 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I cant check for errors lol
< 1761315707 810752 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz I dont have much knowledge of bash/batch nor dna
> 1761315716 782265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166627&oldid=166626 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+50) 10
< 1761315728 159228 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was a joke on both biology and computing either way
> 1761315731 59371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166628&oldid=166583 5* 03 5* (+255) 10Notes on similarity to BF
< 1761315731 656207 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :vista_user: So what happens if I don't think about it? does that accelerate cell or organism death?
< 1761315768 640256 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761315787 439649 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: im not sure
< 1761315813 240643 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im not a scientist (not yet at least) im just some high school student
< 1761316201 392170 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Maybe I missed something, but K' x y = y; K I y = I; so KI isn't K'. I just woke up though, so maybe I'm not fully loaded yet.
< 1761316280 520722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, hello, K I y z = I z; so KI is a rank-2 combinator. I see. Yeah, not awake yet.
< 1761316348 953642 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, you're right about what I said in the past. If that's accurate then you're right that Smullyan won't have the answer. Thanks for recalling that; my memory doesn't actually work right, so I don't recall.
< 1761316410 657553 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :vista_user: it was a play on words ("if you think about it...")
< 1761316426 558308 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1761316447 649517 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(im bad at those...blame austim)
< 1761316453 593375 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*autins
< 1761316458 113485 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*austinm
< 1761316461 824227 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*autism
< 1761316468 725533 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1761316469 643996 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :finally
< 1761316480 631941 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ffs i cant tyep)
< 1761316480 960041 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tbh ive done that a few times
< 1761316496 600545 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*teyp *ytep ect ect
< 1761316501 228139 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761316513 761071 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is that mean?
< 1761316526 919583 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a discord server im in typo got misspelled as tyop 11 times
< 1761316534 943214 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :8 of them was me
< 1761316543 860159 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ddamn
< 1761316548 326925 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*dammn
< 1761316552 540002 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*daamn
< 1761316556 980567 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*daaaaaaaaamn
< 1761316558 401519 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761316562 291844 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761316574 265063 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :NO!
< 1761316577 760170 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs!
< 1761316579 887034 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761316581 86450 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And that's what typing class is for. It's not fun but it pays off.
< 1761316591 367401 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761316610 516103 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but im on a *phone* right now
< 1761316625 869259 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im laying in a very bad position for typing right now
< 1761316637 401006 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(when inmake the mosy typso is when im on a pjone(
< 1761316640 15879 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1761316649 170390 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :) for teh other oen
< 1761316652 620347 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the (() is crazy
< 1761316660 540530 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i fixde it
< 1761316664 145786 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great
< 1761316678 380287 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(()) there's a language of that name
< 1761316696 381687 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is ir an alt name for lisp? /j
< 1761316734 680999 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eventually your backs won't permit that. I'm at a standing desk with an ergonomic-split keyboard and I take breaks to stretch my hands and arms.
< 1761316742 241167 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is lisp so popular within esolangin'?
< 1761316748 762849 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yea I know
< 1761316767 766776 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk but theres always teh joke thta lisp = ()(())(()())()()
< 1761316773 341079 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761316779 133554 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even outsidevesolangign
< 1761316810 578728 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yes, i took teh time to acytually match the parens!)
< 1761316821 500392 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!!!!
< 1761316824 175022 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why think that Lisp is unpopular? A company called ITA used Lisp (SBCL, I think) to revolutionize how airline booking worked; they were acquired by Google, forcing Google to maintain a Lisp application for decades.
< 1761316847 490452 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, I didnt know!
< 1761316867 405235 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the reason is in danish programming circles rarely use LISP
< 1761316885 985227 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :S-expressions are simple. Eventually, after writing many parsers, you will come to appreciate that a Lisp parser takes less than 100 LOC and can be memorized.
> 1761316904 620832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:(())14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166629&oldid=130205 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+189) 10
< 1761316918 159259 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i never said it was complicated, onlynthat it has A LOT of parens
< 1761316963 437468 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lisp has as many parens as, say, Python. Whenever Lisp writes (f x y), Python writes f(x, y).
< 1761316996 441637 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a visual thing, I think
< 1761317018 144809 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It just looks like more parens because they pile up at the beginning as well as the end, as in ((f x y) z). But there's still a pileup in Python; f(x, y)(z) has it in the middle of the expression.
< 1761317030 644746 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761317078 856970 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i also did say it was a common joke
< 1761317094 162461 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could say its a common lisp joke!
< 1761317113 863219 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(im so funny (no im not))
< 1761317122 540472 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(())
< 1761317142 208097 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You're fine. Y'all're still learning about the different possibilities; it hasn't yet clicked that most languages are bad.
< 1761317154 886224 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761317199 748601 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, yes, Lisps are bad. But the popular languages that people use all the time are also bad. So why point and laugh at syntax? I think that it's more about social acceptability than what languages actually represent.
< 1761317218 693348 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, it Is, infact
< 1761317247 649507 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i never said it was bad per se. there are objectively shitty languages thpugh
< 1761317253 639413 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C++ and C are bad too, but you'll see enormous numbers of people defending them and their memory-unsafety purely out of selfishness and machismo. You'll hear piles of untruths: C is low-level, C is efficient, C is safe and you're just a bad programmer, etc.
< 1761317262 222912 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you can use K' = S (S (K K) I)  if you want a more faithful simulation
< 1761317263 276891 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :such as malbolge
< 1761317271 611776 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was about to say
< 1761317285 79906 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uuuuuh, Uncompetition.
< 1761317293 476522 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(malbolge is intentionally bad)
< 1761317311 375931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but K' = K I  is "good enough" for many purporses because any reduction that uses K' x y -> y can be simulated through K I x y -> I y -> y
< 1761317351 500116 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :vista_user: thats why we usually dont mention esolangs in such discussion
< 1761317355 279257 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1761317361 368052 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ik
< 1761317365 160020 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i had to
< 1761317366 848996 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But you do get different normal forms.
< 1761317368 446239 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the lulz
< 1761317370 725741 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1761317375 211458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Ha, that's fair. Thanks.
< 1761317417 330690 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761317553 498321 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761318081 101419 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761318162 675810 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761318397 511542 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761318731 313314 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com JOIN #esolangs citrons :citrons
> 1761319122 973208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166630&oldid=166624 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+32) 10/* Description */
< 1761319914 30571 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761320241 974404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: why did I make it so complicated? K' = S K  works.
< 1761320332 94255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :In any case, it's a very ad-hoc trick; S M x y -> M y (x y)  doesn't fit most binary combinators.
< 1761320384 101535 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761320445 307860 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761320545 577088 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, i have an idea, and, I want some help to like "try" it
< 1761320547 563477 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Sure. What's difficult for me is getting any sort of linear or cancellative behavior out of S. K' is technically cancellative, but in a seemingly-useless way.
< 1761320566 325798 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761320569 371672 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, korvo said KI = SK already. but the question is the opposite, whether you can derive K from S and KI
< 1761320584 458245 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or possibly from S and KI and I
< 1761320626 564270 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :S 
< 1761320650 110853 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we already know that all combinators can be derived from S and K and we know the general procedure to do it 
< 1761320713 508179 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :K'S will give I, at least.
< 1761320760 44226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :No; none of these erase their last argument, but K does. Formally, the right-most leaf of any expression is preserved by reductions in {S,KI,I}, so you can't have M x y -> x
< 1761320881 336615 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: hmm, so can you do something where there needs to be a dummy last argument, but you can still translate any program?
< 1761320898 468960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But maybe you can you have M x y z -> x z? That would be sufficient for simulation...
< 1761320915 980007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(same thought, I was slow to type it out)
< 1761320926 813847 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it wouldn't be sufficient because you also need some equivalent of S
< 1761321138 44809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, depends on what you want; it would be sufficient for simulating head reductions which is all you need for checking whether a term reduces to, say, K.
> 1761321176 345649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EXDotSF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166631&oldid=96899 5* 03Rudolph4268 5* (+1) 10Fixed a typo in the description for the "?" command
< 1761321229 816667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That convinces me. Yayimhere, does that make sense?
< 1761321279 880971 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does what make sense?
< 1761321301 390824 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Int-es latest message+
< 1761321302 692924 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1761321304 477726 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The system {S, K'} we discussed earlier is not complete; in particular it doesn't have K.
< 1761321341 525208 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense lol
< 1761321343 526755 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool!
< 1761321368 214258 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Further, we might wonder about the left-most leaves. Is there a deeper reason why K and I yield K' but K' and I do not yield K? It might merely be left-to-right evaluation and the ability to extend the context to the right but not to the left.
< 1761321609 705120 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761321609 776146 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761321623 688680 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION thinking KI should be named "kite"

< 1761321634 809009 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761322107 234519 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761322176 100811 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761322665 943354 :shikhin!~shikhin@offtopia/offtopian QUIT :Quit: Quittin'.
< 1761322762 324201 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space JOIN #esolangs * :shikhin
< 1761322831 940484 :shikhin!~shikhin@ahti.space CHGHOST ~shikhin :offtopia/offtopian
> 1761322925 238904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166632&oldid=166447 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+336) 10
> 1761322984 454609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166633&oldid=166632 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+8) 10
> 1761323056 724988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166634&oldid=166633 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+0) 10
< 1761323066 299749 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761323070 713613 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166635&oldid=166634 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+1) 10
> 1761323176 151233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166636&oldid=166635 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+2) 10/* Example: solve Erds-Straus conjecture */  big header -> small header
< 1761323550 467386 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761325346 774976 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761325346 802216 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
> 1761325934 436736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gilbert Leo Thulani14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166637 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1151) 10Created page with "Gilbert Leo Thulani, known on the esolang wiki as [[User:Yayimhere]], is an esolanger, and a musician, and makes a lot of art in general. this is some info about her/them/him(...NO!) == Programming specific interests == here's some things I like l
< 1761325991 8496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Wrong namespace. Also, please pick one account and stick to it.
< 1761326016 826154 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1761326034 542019 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what
< 1761326060 471009 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also this is not a new account, just some more in depth info on me as a person/creator of esolangs)
< 1761326222 233150 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What you wrote is appropriate for the user namespace but not the main namespace. Pages in [[:category:people]] are usually more subdued; see [[John Horton Conway]], [[Edwin Brady]], [[Gabriella Gonzalez]], or [[Ward Cunningham]] for examples.
< 1761326237 401146 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oooh ok
< 1761326239 960332 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorryyyyy
> 1761326264 10799 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gilbert Leo Thulani14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166638&oldid=166637 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1151) 10Blanked the page
> 1761326265 91211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166639&oldid=166627 5* 03 5* (+274) 10
< 1761326268 967392 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :While I'm not a deletionist, I do struggle to think of notable work that you've produced. Please recall, from only a few months ago, that we generally expect folks at your age to be *learning* rather than *producing*.
> 1761326353 700001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166640&oldid=166593 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-5503) 10mite kure no kijaku sei ei e
> 1761326420 865032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UnCompetition14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166641 5* 03 5* (+170) 10Created page with "===A question===  Wouldn't ~{''x''} force the existence of command ''x'' in the program? -~~~~"
< 1761326480 200681 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :The S(KI)I calculus :-)
< 1761326742 146150 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still feel it's TC because Sxyz shuffles y and z, though it would end up being messy because you can't clean up the trailing subterms
< 1761326742 953492 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: In general, we do have a written policy about this; please read it. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Authors
< 1761326853 102270 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761326924 601068 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :.oO( Of course the real problem isn't anyone's age, just that it's no longer 1993 and the bar is much higher for what makes an interesting language )
< 1761326962 932684 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe the only way now is to invent them by accident, like what just happened
< 1761327057 743941 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, that doesn't quite track. Yay's produced quite a bit of garbage by putting a "lol xd random" spin on anything that they hear about. I understand why it happens, and I was once that age too; but I also recognize that I was very pretentious and had no idea what I was talking about, even as I was doing basic programming.
> 1761327079 751691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WtE,teplw! but actually usable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166642&oldid=165390 5* 03 5* (+567) 10
< 1761327096 971816 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's not much different from how learning a language does not make one a linguist. (Sorry Whorf, but strong Sapir-Whorf is bogus; learning Lojban does not make one a logician!)
< 1761329479 99871 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761329491 928751 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i sturggle to infer(?) what you mean by noteable
< 1761329564 134710 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Like, work which is known on its own for its own merits. Work that people know about before they know its author.
< 1761329621 933849 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yea no I dont have any, but thats a popularity thing, to some extent
< 1761329662 488661 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for the learning not producing thing, the only reason I make esolangs is cuz I find it fun to work on. nothing else really
< 1761329694 744622 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I don't have any notable work either. Don't worry about it. The point is that an author page in the main namespace is helpful because it lists notable works; if somebody discovers an author via one route, then they should be able to discover related work by the same author.
< 1761329717 829870 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yea, I get it!!!
< 1761329775 124118 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for info:]
> 1761329963 78339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/an esolang for my puter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166643&oldid=151859 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+114) 10
< 1761330222 689842 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761330389 551312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/an esolang for my puter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166644&oldid=166643 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+88) 10/* thoughts for lang creation */
> 1761330528 854254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/an esolang for my puter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166645&oldid=166644 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+49) 10/* thoughts for lang creation */
> 1761330615 391342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-hacker14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166646&oldid=166169 5* 03Ivava 5* (+45) 10
> 1761331151 393033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166647 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+57) 10Created page with "this is me, trying to prove  TC!!! seems feasible lol."
> 1761331203 659194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166648&oldid=166566 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+38) 10
> 1761331615 537052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166649&oldid=166648 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10/*  */
< 1761331837 622780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: but isn't "kite" used for some other bird already?
> 1761332182 835202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166650&oldid=159591 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+2485) 10TETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETOTETO
< 1761332616 778790 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: It doesn't seem like it. Additionally, Smullyan's character says of their Church encoding, "For t, I take the kestrel K; for f, I take the bird KI." This is in the middle of one of two sections that has multiple uses of KI.
< 1761332721 797207 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The section on arithmetic notes that V(KI) is useful, but focuses on the vireo V.
> 1761333094 434999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166651&oldid=164969 5* 03Corbin 5* (+167) 10/* Table of combinators */ Add two variations on S given by Smullyan.
< 1761333120 149769 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did find two birds, phoenix and psi bird, in the nearby notes. So I do appreciate being sent back to the book.
< 1761333223 560962 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761333348 573269 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761333532 590275 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well I have an idea for an esolang, somewhat boring though. Brainfuck with I/O altered to make more sense in a mainframe context.
> 1761333571 227227 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Sandbox/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166652&oldid=166647 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+589) 10
< 1761333572 94461 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Easiest thing to do would be to have , bring in 80 characters across 80 cells
< 1761333595 579432 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :And . would.. hmm, not sure if 80 or 133 makes more sense. (Punch vs print)
< 1761334176 863198 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *
< 1761334260 305694 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761334526 595697 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166653&oldid=166651 5* 03Corbin 5* (+0) 10/* Table of combinators */ Alphabetize Greek letters.
< 1761334816 773831 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : And that's what typing class is for. It's not fun but it pays off. ← I was technically formally trained in touch-typing, but I invented ending up inventing my own style which is very different from the one that's normally taught
< 1761334850 261045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't keep my hands in a consistent position, I move them based on what I'm subconsciously anticipating that I'll need to type next
< 1761334880 741121 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I have a pile of quirks from playing too much piano. The worst thing I do is Shift with the same hand that I'm keying rather than alternating.
< 1761334882 635706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is extremely fast compared to normal typing styles, but also has a somewhat higher error rate, so it only makes sense in situations where backspace is cheap/free (which wasn't true when typing was invented, but usually is nowadays)
< 1761334942 753220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I experimented, and discovered that I was using the left shift key for all my shifting needs
< 1761334973 119835 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are exceptions, like typing $ or %, so I don't use the left shift key for absolutely everything, just most of it
< 1761334976 991833 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how else would you sprint in video games ;)
< 1761335129 447732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the subject of Lisp syntax – I think the primary issue with s-expressions and the parenthesis pileup is that a long row of grouping characters makes it harder for humans to mentally find the start and end of the groups, than if the grouping characters were less clumped up
< 1761335157 878230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this isn't really an essential issue because you could change Lisp to use m-expressions instead and nothing would really change (it was originally designed to use m-expressions, IIRC)
< 1761335189 997600 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION wonders how Rhombus is going

< 1761335287 212431 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess my main real concern with Lisp is that I prefer non-scripting languages to be statically typed, but if you add static types to Lisp it gets rid of a lot of the theoretical elegance
< 1761335290 659150 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Empirically, the ]]] do pile up in M-expression languages like Wolfram. And the ))) pile up in Python too. Really, the issue is that we use a 1D grammar for trees that aren't 1D.
< 1761335351 742757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, most serious programming languages nowadays have some sort of piping operator in order to resolve the most common case of that, but Lisp and Mathematica are both too old (actually Mathematica probably has one that isn't widely used)
< 1761335374 484286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...What *is* the Hausdorff dimension of a B-tree? This seems like something I should have seen before, but I don't know it offhand.
< 1761335439 80954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in many cases this uses "method notation", piping with ., i.e. (add 1 (mul 2 (add 3 4))) becomes 4.add(3).mul(2).add(1)
< 1761335457 403569 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, that transform swaps argument order, so ideally you'd also have a version that reverses argument order
< 1761335475 909498 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :functional languages also tend to have an operator for that but it usually has a different name; |> seems popular at the moment
< 1761335533 689671 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course pointfree programming is naturally full of transformations like that – you rarely get a parenthesis pileup in Haskell, for example
< 1761335609 921053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(now I just realised that a significant proportion of Rust's non-borrow-related syntactic sugar is designed around avoiding the need to nest a lot of {})
< 1761335650 331774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way this is a rejection of the Lisp philosophy – inventing special-cased syntax to avoid needing to nest the program too much is basically the opposite of what Lisp is about, because it makes introspection difficult
< 1761335708 988828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, and thinking about it, there's also the Prolog style: add(3, 4, A), mul(2, A, B), add(1, B, C)
< 1761335745 896011 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :despite being based on m-expressions, Prolog is almost completely immune to excessive nesting / rightward drift because it doesn't natively support nested predicate invocations, you have to manually sequence them
< 1761335759 729499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure that the tradeoff that Prolog specifically makes is worth it
< 1761335779 641051 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not exactly sure who started it, but by the 1970s the let-in style from maths seems to have become popular: let x = ... in f(x)
< 1761335785 747049 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Prolog's syntax is regular enough and introspectable enough to make it possible to write Lisp-style macros in it, but in practice people don't bother)
< 1761335811 306080 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Execline forces this sort of un-nesting because it doesn't support $() inline shell. Instead we write: backtick -E x { ... } f $x
< 1761335826 987785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: let…in style sort-of naturally falls out of the formalizations of this sort of language, it probably started with someone trying to translate a paper about a language to a concrete implementation
< 1761335873 986776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because the formalizations want the scope of a variable to be syntactically visible and properly nested, both the start and the end
< 1761335916 72782 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also because left-to-right is a special reading order. In another buffer, the following execline: importas -iS V backtick -E exe { ${V}/call: $1 exe } $exe --add-fixed --recursive sha256 $2
< 1761335920 797298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C89's { int a; float b; /* code */ } also achieves that goal (by treating it as sugar for { int a; { float b; /* code */ } }), but it's a less obvious approach from the theory (and C++ and C99 endd up changing it)
< 1761335998 156108 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :execlineb and friends all start at the left and pop a fixed number of args, then exec() onto the rest of the args. Kind of like a stack, but usually not pushing, just popping. Substitutions are done by rewriting args; there's no substitution from envp, only from argv.
< 1761336068 80248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I was going to say it's kind-of like a queue without enqueuing
< 1761336077 846632 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I've been doing too much tag system programming
< 1761336103 447579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in most languages that have that general style (e.g. Underload), there is a way to push onto the left-hand side (and this is used to implement loops)
< 1761336114 393772 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: You're on the same page. Execline's author explicitly thinks of argv as something that can be reused and exec() is merely a way to load fresh code onto a single argv under consideration.
< 1761336132 519942 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I expect execline to have one too
> 1761336174 143735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02Gilbert Leo Thulani10]]": blanked by author shortly after creation
< 1761336175 603093 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In Vixen terms, a single method activation only has a single process in memory; every exec() is temporarily activating a new method in the existing environment.
< 1761336216 969980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't really see the one process versus multiple process thing as being a defining feature of shellscript/execline
< 1761336252 849331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a way, shellscript is "better isolated" because you know that commands you run are unlikely to do anything to the rest of the script, whereas an execline command could make arbitrary changes to the trailing arguments
< 1761336342 281510 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in practice execline is only being used with commands specifically designed for it
< 1761336400 614419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "external" commands are called using backtick and the like
< 1761336566 561151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. I think that the efficiency is more relevant; by not having to spawn any bashes, I can send multiple messages per second. I still haven't figured out exactly what kind of security model can work on top of this, but it will probably involve having some sort of privileged representation for paths.
< 1761336677 17166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my reaction to execline is pretty much along the lines of "the execline author's criticisms of sh are valid, but they would be addressed by changing to pretty much any programming language that's statically parsed, and there isn't a clear explanation of why execline uses the particular approach it does"
< 1761336703 771718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially because execline isn't actually statically parsed, you have to rely on all the commands to follow the parsing conventions to make it work
< 1761336783 615310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, tail-exec is a bizarre way to implement a state machine, most languages have more efficient ways to implement them than that
< 1761336832 526243 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, execline is purpose-built for s6, which is a fork of daemontools. One of the things I'm going to explore is how s6 service directories can be treated as Vixen objects, hopefully.
< 1761336997 290073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like execline's design was intended to keep the interpreter out of memory, in the belief that that would make things more efficient
< 1761337035 48499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Still thinking about what you said about loops. Execline just doesn't have a stateful while-loop; not even envp is writable by the looped process. I ended up writing the one while-loop as a recursive call, which is actually pretty neat since it's for recursive parent lookup, but it is kind of a difficult limitation.
< 1761337058 699953 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but actually that just means that every execline command has to redo some of the interpreter steps (such as parsing blocks out of argv)
< 1761337111 373607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I expected execline loops to work as in Underload, along the lines of "check a condition; if the condition is true, insert the content of a block at the start of the original argv (without removing this command or its arguments); if the condition is false, skip the block"
< 1761337159 331411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks like loopwhilex doesn't quite work like that
< 1761337226 829212 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the intuition is of an infinitely repeated program part, followed by a goto, i.e. while a {b} c can be thought of as meaning "unless a {goto label} b unless a {goto label} b unless a {goto label} b … label c"
< 1761337239 600103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then you can use the language's normal mechanisms for maintaining state
< 1761337301 222474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't think execline has a forward goto either, but it wouldn't be conceptually hard to add one to the programming model – backwards goto is of course incompatible)
< 1761337304 481657 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1761337379 438159 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1761337383 22664 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. TBH I don't think I'm going to need any state in these little scripts. State would be useful for doing something big and orchestrated, but I might as well just write in Python or another non-shell language for that.
< 1761337409 213272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, my other real concern about execline was "why not just use a scripting language that isn't shellscript"
< 1761337411 446477 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do think that it's an obstacle for saying that we can replace all bash with execline. Execline can't replace 2000 lines of well-factored functions.
< 1761337418 685202 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I think the answer to that would be "because the executables are big and complicated"
> 1761337441 929678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166654&oldid=166592 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-1729) 10removed stupid thing
< 1761337460 802907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so the followup would be "why not write a scripting language that's a proper programming language but is small and simple?"
< 1761337481 996712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably "market" pressure against doing that (i.e. few people think they need it), but it is something that would be useful
< 1761337551 12582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have considered writing my own Perl derivative with substantially fewer features (with the tradeoff being that it runs much faster)
< 1761337577 136255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a more consistent / less scary-looking syntax
< 1761337660 600402 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's the beauty of Smalltix. The methods can be anything with a +x permission bit. Symlinks work fine. The overall idea is to *defragment* the Unix system with a uniform interface.
< 1761337664 188592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would probably get rid of the sigils because a) they're the sort of thing that scare people off, b) the way Perl uses them is not really a good match for how programming in Perl actually works, and c) A Pear Tree looks really nice
< 1761337722 494247 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Smalltix is sort of the opposite of what I want, though – I want a single executable which parses the script, possibly does a very fast compilation step, and then runs it itself
< 1761337857 478884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I'm looking at the Unix philosophy of having lots of small tools that each do one job well, then saying "why do these each have to be separate executables?"
> 1761337874 126987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166655&oldid=166640 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+858) 10travel back in time and retrieve the first sent message
< 1761338186 207790 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. That's the batch-processing POV. It makes sense for plenty of workloads. Smalltix is more like a spreadsheet or video game; it's interactive and programmed from the inside.
< 1761338218 971026 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh, I see, you want to be able to change a running program (like you can in Smalltalk)
< 1761338275 708967 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly enough, what I wanted for my Perl derivative was similar but a bit different – I wanted to be able to see a program's variables at any point in its execution, and edit the program without losing the work it had already done
< 1761338306 452165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I wasn't thinking of it as live-editing a program, because I wanted to end up with a reproducible script that could be used to do the same job again in the future
< 1761338313 482226 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. As a sysadmin, I want my machine to be a holistic system that doesn't have any hidden or opaque parts. In Jakubovich's framing, that means no binaries; in Kell's framing, that means no custom memory allocators. But I'm not being dogmatic; instead I'm imagining a human process which refines a system as it runs to make it object-oriented without discarding any working binary.
< 1761338318 708213 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you live-edit a program you can end up with a result that couldn't be produced by the final version of the program
< 1761338370 452394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is the equivalent of incremental compilation, except for running the program, so I'd call it "incremental execution"
< 1761338389 170905 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :As a Perl hacker, do you know the story of atmospheric programming? It seems to no longer be online.
< 1761338395 768762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't
< 1761338446 985877 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but lisp has user-definable macros, so it is about inventing whatever special-cased syntax you want
< 1761338453 897656 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A one-person consultancy had an utterly cracked way of programming. Each client got a fork of the main code, each fork had all variables as globals, and each query was "atmospheric": it pulled globals into the DB queries as needed to satisfy the client's requests.
< 1761338464 281624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but people normally don't use it for that
< 1761338467 609603 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No version control, IIRC. Lots of security issues.
< 1761338487 985216 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus lisp has first-class functions, which makes it more likely that you can express such things even without macros
< 1761338494 896857 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it even has inline lambdas
< 1761338508 38520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: heh, reminds me a lot of INTERCAL (and CLC-INTERCAL in particluar, which doesn't quite work like that but feels like it's evolving in that direction)
< 1761338594 818879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I originally misinterpreted it as the DB being shared between all customers
< 1761338599 453042 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Found it: https://perlhacks.com/2012/03/you-must-hate-version-control-systems/ He's still going! https://www.perl.com/article/my-guilty-perl-obsession/
< 1761338606 50964 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on the more esoteric side, Enchain or other languages with similar syntax are technically a way to avoid the pileup of parenthesis, though not a practical way because the cure is worse than the original symptoms
< 1761338631 403449 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's at least something we should examine, even if to find out that it's not worth
< 1761338641 328124 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The side you don’t know is that pipelines is what I’ve coined “atmospheric programming”, which is going to take some describing. If you imagine the difference between an object-oriented fully scoped world, and a flat file where everything is a global variable, sming the pendulum all the way further. Not only is everything global, but everything’s structured to be accessed from everywhere."
< 1761338752 486386 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait what? are the sigils really what used to scare people off perl? I don't think that's true.
< 1761338814 692955 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"and edit the program without losing the work it had already done" => the hard part is how to combine that with lambda closures. I was thinkign about that recently. 
< 1761338820 948413 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I don't think they're the main thing, but they are the main thing that's visible in simple programs
> 1761338849 704012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166656&oldid=166654 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+90) 10Added my implementation (still a stub implementation)
< 1761338862 468996 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done enough A Pear Tree programming to realise just how different the programs look if you remove the dollar signs
< 1761338898 648899 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A Pear Tree still requires you to use $ sigils on variables in cases that would otherwise be ambiguous, but you can omit them in simple cases)
< 1761338944 677922 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, that's a different A Pear Tree than I was thinking of
< 1761338944 793982 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doesn't Perl 5 require the sigils to specify how the variable is loaded from storage? Or is it just an affectation inherited from awk?
< 1761338958 498370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in simple programs, as long as you do flow control entirely using eval rather than more sensible ways, it polyglots pretty well with Python
< 1761338962 572443 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there two languages with a similar name?
< 1761338983 483919 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it's the same Pear Tree, it just does multiple apparently unrelated changes to perl
< 1761338996 928557 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so Perl sigils specify what type the variable has, where there are three types: scalars, arrays, and maps (which Perl calls hashes)
< 1761339039 298577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, Perl has both arrays and array references, and an array reference is a type of scalar
< 1761339103 84057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and array references are generally much more useful than arrays, and also you don't need an existing array to create them (you can just allocate them at will), so a common Perl programming style uses only array references and map references, rather than array-typed and map-typed variables
< 1761339135 638699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that despite multiple sigils existing, $ (scalar) is overwhelmingly the most commonly used one, and the others are, whilst not actually deprecated, mostly unused nowadays
< 1761339154 132832 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, I recall code doing lots of $(this)->meth(); sorts of shapes.
< 1761339231 987610 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't ported Smalltalk or Self to Vixen. I just don't like the syntax enough. I think Self makes a lot of sense at a REPL but not as an orchestration language on disk.
< 1761339250 156152 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a Perl object is implemented as a pair of a package (basically the equivalent of a class) and a place to store the object's data
< 1761339269 458338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the place to store the data has to be a scalar, in practice it's usually a map reference, and usually an array reference if it isn't a map reference
< 1761339287 245256 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which means that Perl objects are exclusively accessed using $, the other sigils wouldn't work for them
< 1761339299 592016 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"and also you don't need an existing array to create them" => that's a great way to make the sort of mistake where your program seem to work well but later dies when an array happens to be empty. I've made such errors without perl, but I think if you try to program perl in the style that you suggest they'll be more likely.
< 1761339310 415785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, for my "simple incremental execution Perl" I don't think I'd support objects)
< 1761339351 274301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well this style usually creates arrays with […] and hashes/maps with {…}, those don't die when the array is empty
< 1761339361 66020 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and now we might have to qualify that statement because more recent perl is adding some different kind of OO as well
< 1761339390 542013 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Curious, yet another fat-pointer language.
< 1761339399 962269 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, I was thinking you'd just { push @$x, $y; } inside a loop without initializing $x
< 1761339410 42126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's a good way to think about it, but Perl pointers are stupidly fat even without that
< 1761339499 161176 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: or, and this is the way I encountered the bug in non-perl, you { push @{$x{$z}}, $y; } inside a loop, then later try to use @{$x{$z}} which fails if you never pushed with that particular $z
< 1761339529 80926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: now I'm wondering how hard it would be to just simply make that case work
< 1761339553 74828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be as simple as "indexing undef returns undef"?
< 1761339563 324031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, I don't mean it to be a bad thing. Or maybe it's a dialect thing; in USA lingo, we would say that a pointer is not "stupidly fat" but "dummy thicc". But to me a fat pointer is just a pair (script, closure) or (behavior, locals) or (class, attributes) or (vtable, struct) or...
< 1761339596 816301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I wasn't taking you as implying it was a bad thing
< 1761339604 70103 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And it seems like they're key to so many languages. D, Go, and Rust all rely on fat-pointer strings. Cello calls itself "a fat-pointer library".
< 1761339609 115603 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was just thinking that it was the obvious approach for Perl because pointers stored so much data there already
< 1761339615 724710 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's kind of a tradeoff. perl is already making undef semi-silently work as a number or string. you can make it work as a ref to an empty array too, but eventually you'll get more bugs where something is accidentally uninitialized and you don't notice because perl doesn't warn you than how much bugs you have now from where you meant somethign to be an array ref but perl didn't allow it
< 1761339656 810622 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :arithmetic on undef gives a warning, right? which in simple programs is IME usually a false positive
< 1761339671 374205 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually yes, but there are some exceptions
< 1761339721 563752 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in particular you can { $x += $z; } in a loop, then use $x, and if the addition never ran then you get a false warning
< 1761339735 624580 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there's also the extreme approach of unifying all the types (which is the thing I like about old versions of Perl)
< 1761339752 930081 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's easy enough to see how an array and a map could be the same type (Lua does that)
< 1761339770 733940 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's also easy to see how an array and string could be the same type (a string could be an array of character codes)
< 1761339799 770701 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with this approach, undef would be an empty string, which logically seems reasonable
< 1761339837 345073 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :automatic coercions would be very weird, though, you'd get things like "abc"[1][1] == 8
< 1761339850 211535 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761339862 381373 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of that wouldn't be compatible with existing perl
< 1761339872 501041 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know, I'm not trying to be compatible, just inspired
< 1761339917 811090 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this unify-everything approach would make sense for a golfing language but not so much for practical use
< 1761339966 103793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :undef as "" might make sense practically, but also might be a big mistake (it reminds me a lot of Go's zero values which I think are probably a mistake)
< 1761339985 102246 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, there are two fairly popular systems that have "everything is a char" and "everything is an octet" respectively, but I get what you're saying: it's not maintainable to only deal in bytes.
< 1761340013 622951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, the "exists" operation seems wrong, it's needlessly confusing to have both "undefined" and "nonexistent" as possible map values
< 1761340041 634594 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think the language should at least get rid of one of those options, and I'm not sure which one makes more sense to remove
< 1761340071 816187 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now that I've been writing programs in a dynamical language in a way where I want them to be maintainable for years, I want types *less* unified rather than more, in order to detect mistakes earlier
< 1761340081 77835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even with dynamic typing I lean that way
< 1761340082 295002 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(when I want to implement a set in current Perl, I normally do it – for efficiency reasons – as a map where a nonexistent value means not included, and an undefined value means included – but this is really confusing in the code)
< 1761340116 625054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so I really like the approach of strings and integers being treated as the same type and changing based on the operator you use
< 1761340143 105454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is better than the Python/JS approach of tracking what type is used for the value and having the operators act differently according to it
< 1761340172 125699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I also think it's probably correct to error if the operator doesn't match the data being stored
< 1761340175 416122 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lua does that, it doesn't distinguish between a key that's not in a table and a key where the associated value is nil. So do Factorio circuit network by the way, no difference between no value or zero value.
< 1761340197 204629 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. I am happy with "123" + "456" = 579, but not "123a" + "456" = 579
< 1761340252 3509 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, perhaps the correct approach is to treat undef, empty array, and empty map as all equivalent, but make them different once you start storing data in them
< 1761340278 510767 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there could be a middle option where you can format a number to a string implicitly (useful to quickly print numbers for debugging) but you need an explicit conversion to parse a string as a number
< 1761340296 65144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well Perl is often dealing with numbers read from files or pipes
< 1761340319 175518 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I definitely don't want the program to silently change additions into concatenations because I forgot to change one of those from a string to a number
< 1761340334 707719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for scripting uses, I don't really want to explicitly cast either
< 1761340370 155466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but perhaps the approach would be to add, e.g., a way to regex capture as an integer
< 1761340390 855927 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that would make sense
< 1761340395 865239 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thus forcing the parsing step to exist (and even making it statically checkable), but reducing the syntactic overhead
< 1761340469 523810 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably a place for everything, I'm just leaning to more explicitness because of what programs I've had to maintain recently. 
< 1761340481 135342 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they involve a lot of reading and writing text files.
< 1761340486 638414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ideal is lightweight explicitness which happens even without you doing anything
< 1761340493 517685 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :type inference is a good example of that
< 1761340536 314655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering whether Perl with type inference is even possible, or whether it encounters heterogenous data too often
< 1761340712 455514 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would probably need two types of map, a tuplish one where the set of keys were fixed and each key could have a different value type, and one where all the values had the same type but the keys could be arbitrary
< 1761340715 856118 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and likewise for arrays)
< 1761341508 89659 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that sigils are helpful in some programming languages, for several purposes such as avoiding conflicting with keywords
< 1761341612 592963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I liked Neighbors' convention for META II: the keywords all start with a sigil! In their case, it was '.' which led to me thinking of the keywords as methods/attributes of some builtin object with an empty name "".
< 1761341644 664797 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Enchain will use what I think counts as sigils, % and & , to denote that you're defining a function instead of calling it
< 1761341659 820920 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're still sigils if they go *after* the name, right?
< 1761341766 993316 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would say it is still sigils whether it is before or after
< 1761341809 221210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, then these are sigils because you have to write them immediately after the function name, you can't put whitespace between them because that changes the meaning
< 1761341819 889422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: in Algol-68, ". before keywords" is the portable convention for how you write keywords
< 1761341851 970599 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is used to solve the bootstrapping problem of "how can I tell the compiler how I want to write keywords, without knowing what the keyword syntax is"
< 1761341886 104617 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said I don't think modern Algol-68 implementations actually follow that rule, but maybe they do
< 1761341893 272424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesn't fortran use dots to write numeric compare operators?
< 1761341902 109410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some dialects at least
< 1761341911 955260 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may be confusing fortran with something else
< 1761341919 857387 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the other two rules you can use are "keywords in uppercase" and "any sequence of letters that could be a keyword is" – the latter was combined with an underscore sigil to unkeywordise things)
< 1761341950 491024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also wondering whether the latter invented the use of underscore to replace spaces in variable names
< 1761341953 213045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or whether that's older
< 1761341961 283032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: .GT. and the like, I think
< 1761341965 184330 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"any sequence of letters that could be a keyword is" => how many two-letter keywords are there?
< 1761341968 879395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that has dots at the start and end, rather than just the start
< 1761341970 370148 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: TIL! That makes a lot of sense as far as history.
< 1761341989 470209 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There is "if" and "do" in C are keywords with two letters, as well as many longer keywords
< 1761341995 994455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think "if" is a keyword, I'm not sure about "of", I can't immediately think of any others offhand but there probably are some
< 1761342016 805052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't looked at Algol-68 for a while
< 1761342064 453517 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In some programming language, does have "of", "in", "to", and "on" also as keywords
< 1761342068 764578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stropping_(syntax)
< 1761342072 808827 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't know about ALgol specifically)
< 1761342084 799176 :strerror_r!~strerror@user/strerror JOIN #esolangs strerror :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761342116 125142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, this article suggests that the reason that prefix . was used was so that it would work in 6-bit character sets
< 1761342132 464165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I didn't know but makes sense
< 1761342135 401106 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :once you have a large portion of `do if or is no in to of by as on at` as keywords, it starts to get hard to invent good variable names
< 1761342149 661966 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761342206 817223 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one I usually ran into is trying to use `if` for an input file handle and `of` (or `log`) for an output file handle
< 1761342308 72732 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've accidentally used `i8` as a variable name in Rust in the past
< 1761342322 305108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the only time where variable names and type names being in different namespaces has actually been useful
< 1761342338 625829 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, the one that really bit me is `j0` as a function name in C. 
< 1761342352 801559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that said, IMO Rust should have used titlecase names for its primitive types so that variable name / type name clashes couldn't happen in program that used normal capitalisation style)
< 1761342369 752814 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: they should have called that 8i though, or else should have made it a normal identifier rather than a keyword
< 1761342377 524791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :NetHack has a clash with the standard library on "yn" I think
< 1761342389 921378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and with C++ keywords on "class")
< 1761342435 493525 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some of my C programs also use "class" as the name of a variable or a field of a structure, but it is not C++ so it is OK
< 1761342515 672377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C keywords actually mostly hit the sweet spot of being clear whilst being unlikely to be a variable name
< 1761342531 141613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially "struct" and "enum", those are really good keywords
< 1761342557 278165 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some are not so good, like "long"
< 1761342578 994885 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this implies that maybe truncated words are a good choice for keywords
< 1761342827 11718 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761343050 38045 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not just the casing that's wrong. whether it's called i8 or I8, it should be an ordinary namespaced name in the prelude that you can shadow, not a keyword. theres' no reason why it should be a keyword. they learned the wrong lesson from C or C++ there. same for true and false, those should be ordinary enum constructors.
< 1761343061 281652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it isn't a keyword
< 1761343077 108747 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why isn't it namespaced then?
< 1761343086 210615 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it like a weak keyword?
< 1761343145 29079 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust normally uses prelude imports for that sort of thing (i.e. your program has an implicit «use core::option::Option as Option;» as the start) but I'm not sure whether it does that for primitives
< 1761343217 236389 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/prelude/index.html should list all the names of the prelude. Option is there; i8 isn't
< 1761343243 953083 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if i8 isn't a (possibly weak) keyword then I don't know what it is
< 1761343258 781500 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could just be an identifier in the global scope, I guess
< 1761343378 721778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it definitely isn't a keyword: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2024&gist=1a97b4fab7c45582af9a27e3d2d44ff0
< 1761343401 990882 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761343404 479804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the «r#» prefix is how you create an identifier with the same name as a keyword, that isn'ta keyword)
< 1761343654 127072 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think it's in the global scope, firstly because there are only crates there, secondly because you can't call it ::u8
< 1761343691 11687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe it's just a special case that's inconsistent with the rest of the language, then
< 1761343692 621649 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it seems as if it's imported into every namespace as if it were in the prelude
< 1761343713 537063 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but can be shadowed like anything in the prelude
< 1761343715 574044 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think would be better to have sigils indicating stuff that is not keywords, or use other signs or formatting indicating if it is or not keywords, or to not have reserved words even if they are keywords, depending on the use
< 1761343724 18951 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it's imported as if it were a wildcard import
< 1761343840 488882 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think LLVM uses sigils to indicate stuff other than keywords)
< 1761343890 65075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like register sigils in asm because they avoid the problem of a variable and register having the same name
< 1761343922 282922 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially because new registers get introduced over time, e.g. if I had a variable named zmm0, that would have been fine on old assemblers but might break on newer ones
< 1761343926 55187 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761344095 955465 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761344301 476461 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the explanation that was current when I was active was "you know what would make a programming language easier to learn?  case and gender"
< 1761344403 522337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: was that intended sincerely or sarcastically? I know that many people find learning word gender to be one of the hardest parts of learning languages that have it, because it's basically just an extra boolean you have to memorise along with every word
< 1761344425 871787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least case has simplifying aspects in addition to complicating aspects
< 1761344484 102076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I'm not convinced that sigils generally are bad, but I don't think they benefit modern Perl in particular because almost everything is a scalar
< 1761344502 887240 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :perl 5 does not have fat pointers.  it has fat *variables*.  bless attaches metadata to the memory location (SV) like a tie would
< 1761344537 809195 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :100% sincere with maybe a touch of self-deprecation
< 1761344541 863454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, you are right (although programs are in practice nearly always written in such a way that the distinction is not observable)
< 1761344585 831472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Perl has so much metadata on everything that it is hard to remember where in particular any given datum is stored
< 1761344700 936581 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did _write_ one...
> 1761344985 621291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fat pointer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166657 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1948) 10Stub for a recurring concept that isn't properly addressed on WP.
< 1761345147 682698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'd caveat that the extra data in a fat pointer isn't always a pointer, it just needs to contain "type" information generally, but sometimes that's generics rather than a type name expressed as a vtable
< 1761345192 82776 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust slices are only accessible via fat pointers that specifies the length they would have if interpreted as an array, for example (which is a numerical generic rather than a vtable)
< 1761345254 453008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. I think of those as degenerate cases of the general concept, though; they're just more specialized.
< 1761345295 682141 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I guess you can view the slice length as a sort of compressed pointer that stores the entire data of its target inside the space that would otherwise be used for the pointer itself
< 1761345309 341809 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The first component is what we call "green" in JIT theory; it's the component that we want to hold constant and "differentiate with respect to", so to speak.
< 1761345309 458706 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how about fortran multidimensional slice descriptors
< 1761345311 845982 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, we use the number 5 as a compressed version of "a pointer to a vtable for a length-5 array"
< 1761345618 170551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, is there a standard name for this sort of pointer/reference-like thing where the thing that is being referenced might actually exist in memory, or might just be generated on the spot?
< 1761345781 559425 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :laziness?
< 1761345845 38724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's quite the same
< 1761345849 389362 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is similar though
< 1761345872 856057 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a lazy pointer/reference, I would expect the target to be generated on first use and then remain in memory, rather than being generated on every use
< 1761345980 368805 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :c++, python, and self are all canonically thin-pointer systems where you either have types at compile time, or the referent of a pointer knows its runtime type because it has a vtable/metadata...
< 1761345985 445479 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"proxy", "facade", "becomer" (https://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/07/miracle-of-become.html)
< 1761346093 340763 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a bit of nastiness around c++ multiple inheritance where sometimes an object has to have multiple vtable pointers and seemingly no-op coercions need to offset the object pointer to point at a different vtable pointer, but everything is still thin
< 1761346106 396458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Isn't Python canonically fat? The `type` allocator produces objects with a `__class__` and `__dict__`; those are the first and second component of the standard fat pointer.
< 1761346129 778912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh right, "proxy" definitely fits (I'm a bit less familar with the other two)
< 1761346148 236281 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'll concede that perhaps I misread the Self paper. I haven't actually played with a Self implementation.
< 1761346163 474097 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :a fat pointer is local and immutable, you can change the type information on one pointer to an object without changing it for others
< 1761346212 720250 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suppose you could think of a Python object as a fat pointer to a dictionary, but the existence of slots muddles that interpretation
< 1761346234 772886 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i'd rather think of the object as an object itself that simply delegates some behavior to a dictionary
< 1761346244 537867 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only Self implementation I've used is V8
< 1761346376 417477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly Rust has an equivalent to Smalltalk become: (called core::mem::replace), although it's much more restrictive because you need a mutable reference to the thing you are replacing
< 1761346423 27597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has become increasingly controversial over time because it breaks invariants that would otherwise exist, some of which would be useful for implementing various language features
< 1761346525 727198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from my point of view, its biggest issue is that it means that the concept of object identity effectively doesn't exist in Rust, because there's no type-system-level way to observe that an object got swapped out and so you can't tell whether you're still using the same object you were previously using if any code you don't control has had a mutable reference to it
< 1761346546 23031 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :...and I wrote a variation (take_mut) to allow what felt like a missing function in the language >.>
< 1761346578 15145 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo_: is that core::mem::take, or something else?
< 1761346667 825177 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's more of a core::mem::replace that can wait for the hole to be filled, passing in a closure. It aborts if the closure panics
< 1761346706 651145 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sort of wanted there to exist a function that turns (T -> T) into one that takes (&mut T)
< 1761346737 906824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I see, it leaves an uninitialized hole behind?
< 1761346748 860762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, a copy of the bits but that you aren't allowed to use
< 1761346769 355366 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :replace is interesting because it's the only way to move a non-Clone type out of a mutable reference, if you're working with owned values the lack of identity goes much deeper because there's no way to override operator=
< 1761346807 19443 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is one of the things that makes me think that Rust &mut is incorrectly defined (I am not opposed to the existence of mutable references but I think the specific choices &mut makes for what you can and can't do are wrong)
< 1761346815 582773 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's an RFC that failed, calling the function replace_with
< 1761346836 519367 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it has an invariant that it always points to a valid value of the type, even while reborrowed
< 1761346868 871512 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/1736#issuecomment-1311564676
< 1761346889 14496 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :Composition of safe crates that add functions is unsafe
< 1761346905 77179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that it would make more sense for a reborrowed &mut to not constrain the type of the thing that it's reborrowing (although, as you say, you would need some separate way to maintain panic-safety in that case)
< 1761346931 71184 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :well if you reborrow you have a _new_ reference, mutable or not, which upholds the "has a valid value of the type"
< 1761346961 422642 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: but what if you transmute the new reference
< 1761346978 500780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is unsafe, but isn't necessarily unsound
< 1761347091 605298 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wanted to make some sort of unmovable structure based on the compiler preventing self-referencing structures from being moved. I didn't do so and the community invented Pin.
< 1761347101 30710 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't... know if my idea would have worked or not
< 1761347114 923920 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't fully understand Pin and the async features
< 1761347136 103962 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo_: you can actually do that in current safe Rust (unmovable self-referencing structures) but there are a lot of restrictions
< 1761347161 437605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the basic idea is to have a type with a lifetime parameter that controls the lifetimes of the references inside, and the same lifetime is also used for self on the method calls
< 1761347213 454441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main problems are that it only works well with shared references (because if you do it with a mutable reference it doesn't reborrow properly) and nothing self-referencing can have a destructor (otherwise it fails drop check)
< 1761347277 436901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the latter problem seems to be inherent to the idea of self-referencing structures rather than a limitation of the implementation: a structure has to be dropped after everything it references, so if you have a circular reference you can't drop at all
< 1761347293 36991 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but if there are no destructors Rust works around the problem by simultaneously forgetting the whole structure)
< 1761347298 205236 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when you say that replace is the only way to move out from a mutable reference, do you consider mem::swap equivalent to that? because I'm thinking of mem::swap as the more natural way and mem::replace a wrapper around that
< 1761347309 908440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, swap and replace are basically equivalent
< 1761347321 833651 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok good
< 1761347350 667590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :swap is slightly more fundamental in that trying to implement swap in terms of replace needs a temporary, which you might not be able to initialize correctly
< 1761347354 871164 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: skimming everything posted here is unsustainable and I'll have to go back to mostly ignoring, do you want to move the nql stuff somewhere else or just ping?
< 1761347414 892877 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for moving out and leaving a hole that you will fill before you return, thus breaking panic safety, I wonder if you can do that with a Cell
< 1761347438 644507 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sgeo_: ^
< 1761347483 109281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you can't move out of a cell unless you swap something in
< 1761347497 798714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, mem::swap is not the fundamental operation, Cell::swap is
< 1761347525 175308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can write mem::swap in terms of Cell::swap (and occasionally have to, e.g. when swapping a mutable reference with a cell; that came up for me recently)
< 1761347552 284525 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that makes sense, because you might try to access a cell through another reference
< 1761347640 939032 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, it is possible that Cell::swap needs a special case for trying to swap a cell with itself, and mem::swap doesn't
< 1761347689 994289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm do you think this reduction in critical path length is meaningful ;-) https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez-mam-critical.png (right: corresponding snippet from https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tree-mam/ )
< 1761349157 562672 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm I think it's a bit over half a second at 10x belt speed. So not huge when the total latency is like 16s.
< 1761352027 205065 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1761352496 808710 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761353158 415555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761353977 411971 :strerror_r!~strerror@user/strerror NICK :strerror
< 1761356409 490279 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: We can stick to GitHub. Also it looks like the channel #nql is empty if you'd like to use that.
< 1761357668 471781 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761357688 582027 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761361058 233790 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: white is the most common color, and apart from white a freeplay shape takes colors from among three adjacent colors of a rainbow, so I feel like you should make the path of white the shortest, and put the rest in rainbow order, so that for at least some shapes the critical path is shorter than the longest necessary.
< 1761361216 59961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: It doesn't matter in my design because I have to wait out the worst case switch-over time anyway, or synchronization may be lost. Well, unless I somehow compute the actual time I suppose, which I won't.
< 1761361222 999203 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but I also don't understand what what you show is on the critical path, don't the rectangles going from right to left take a longer path here, and aren't the rectangles a variable shape?
< 1761361240 366706 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah I see
< 1761361367 870914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: nah, that's not a variable shape, I'm just not supplying the other three because I was lazy
< 1761361382 468352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I assume "ah I see" means you saw that
< 1761361413 569168 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main novelty here (for me) is feeding a belt with filters from both sides.
< 1761361461 432281 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, the I see is for the synchronious timing that you have
< 1761361482 359356 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you're belt weaving the four shapes
< 1761361484 356847 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's the trick
< 1761361520 93915 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, then the path of the shapes is longer
< 1761361521 486715 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :shorter
< 1761361523 916413 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :drat
< 1761361586 665968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm somewhat seriously contemplating to actually build a mixed belt design for this (not my idea)
< 1761361625 847280 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, if you are setting up synchronious setups for everything then you can probably handle at least two colors mixed on each belt
< 1761361643 693907 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :where for each quarter, you have one belt that provides all 4 shapes, and another that provides all 7 colors (plus a dummy shape). Which after filtering is *just* enough to feed a double painter.
< 1761361647 44542 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but whether that lets you compress this to shorter I'm not sure
< 1761361659 468015 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1761361683 539489 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :all seven colors on the same belt? I see
< 1761361714 733302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :source is this: https://old.reddit.com/r/shapezio/comments/11e54on/20_sec_bmam_flushless/
< 1761361817 195228 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Which does another crazy thing, where it stacks before cutting, with possibly two stacks in one quadrant. That trick only works for full-height shapes though.)
< 1761361883 501945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't like the restriction, but the design *is* clever.)
< 1761362018 640837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Providing resources for that beast would be very cumbersome though. It has, 12 copies of the MAM, and each MAM will require 4x4 shape belts and 3x8 primary color belts (discarding all those unused colors is a huge waste).
< 1761362086 403538 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but discarding unused shapes isn't, interestingly enough)
< 1761362114 619248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway
< 1761362127 719751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks for humoring me, and good night
> 1761363858 341666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tskastic/Command Table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166658&oldid=158970 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+98) 10
< 1761364077 764 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1761364137 143297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166659&oldid=154502 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+197) 10
> 1761364185 274327 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166660&oldid=160908 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+31) 10
< 1761366491 726335 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1761366771 580042 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1761367649 174419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166661&oldid=151882 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+145) 10
> 1761368894 531420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166662&oldid=166641 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+153) 10
> 1761368903 353857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166663&oldid=166662 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+118) 10
> 1761368927 58573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166664&oldid=166630 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Description */
> 1761369190 111432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unhappy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166665&oldid=145691 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-28) 10deleted Turing tarpit category, as there is no proof of such
< 1761369363 101717 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761369446 250782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166666&oldid=166639 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+16) 10
> 1761369457 740355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166667&oldid=166666 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+118) 10
> 1761372638 831680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Unname479814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166668&oldid=150990 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+450) 10
< 1761373308 546690 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey people, I have a quick question, what is regex? because Ϫ said I should merge regex and my own language, but I couldn't find out what regex actually was
< 1761374509 808079 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Regular expressions.
< 1761374527 341654 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!!!
> 1761374797 236882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166669&oldid=166667 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+117) 10
> 1761375729 19705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FUnctional staCK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166670 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+13887) 10Created page with "'''FUnctional staCK''' is a minimal staCK based programming language created by [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] that shares some traits with FUnctional languages. For short, it can be called FUCK, a perfectly innocuous name.  Despite the perfectly innocuous name, t
< 1761376515 901866 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761376533 121726 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi APic!
< 1761376560 106370 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yo Yayimhere 
< 1761376712 861194 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whattup!
> 1761376767 800254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166671&oldid=89272 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+1390) 10
< 1761376793 986540 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are ya?
< 1761376806 941640 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and are you doing anything esolang
> 1761376838 876641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CatCatDeluxe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166672&oldid=166671 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+9) 10fix the link
< 1761381201 476057 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761381279 861560 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello tromp!
< 1761381308 795668 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1761381439 401995 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you?
< 1761382870 748214 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761383195 102099 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761383831 101503 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761384475 301405 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1761384475 365131 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1761385249 100907 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761385854 659028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166673&oldid=166636 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-3) 10
> 1761385924 152492 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox/Users that is also on other place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166674&oldid=166661 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+115) 10
< 1761386770 101901 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761387686 231307 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166675&oldid=166319 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+131) 10
> 1761388036 343379 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unrepetition14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166676 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1344) 10Created page with "'''Unrepetition''' is a combination of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression Regex], and [[UnCompetition]]. the [[Talk:crypten|original idea]] was created by [[User:]]. == How it functions == fundementally, UnCompetition and Unrepetition func
> 1761388193 976301 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166677&oldid=166669 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+162) 10
> 1761388413 914279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166678&oldid=166456 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+18) 10
> 1761389181 574622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166679&oldid=166678 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-1) 10I made the mistake of changing the section and description but not the code. fixed.
> 1761390893 765295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CGOLOE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166680&oldid=135605 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
< 1761392323 327942 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1761392348 896197 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1761392644 131454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166681&oldid=166664 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+48) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
< 1761392896 825036 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm fine
> 1761392965 91666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unrepetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166682&oldid=166676 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+39) 10
< 1761393014 457968 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great lol!
> 1761393730 340505 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unrepetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166683&oldid=166682 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+53) 10
< 1761395110 390439 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1761396904 128138 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761397105 468261 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi amby
< 1761398249 101542 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761398790 703919 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761399502 323111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166684&oldid=166514 5* 03None1 5* (+288) 10/* SLet */
< 1761402638 101067 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761407307 404833 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761408305 314994 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166685 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1295) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} '''GRG''' or '''Growth Rate Growth''' is a semi-theoretical esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]](as In not all formal specifics have been defined), in his search for the computational class of [[UnCompetition]]. it is a combination of a single growth rat
> 1761408845 495837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03SzymoQwerty 5*  10New user account
< 1761408862 305293 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761408978 905344 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oooh, new user!!!
< 1761408980 731789 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761409222 495215 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761409620 286397 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1761409649 185111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166686&oldid=166590 5* 03SzymoQwerty 5* (+143) 10/* Introductions */
> 1761409788 167361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166687&oldid=166685 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1370) 10
< 1761409931 158606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: On UnCompetition's complexity class: what does the language actually compute? Can you show how it would implement some functions on natural numbers? The description of the commands that you've given is too vague for me, so I would need to see some example programs before understanding what the language actually does.
> 1761410035 145967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166688&oldid=166687 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+216) 10
< 1761410092 551470 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Korvo: I cant give any examples, because even though I know how the language works, I have no idea on how to practically use it(though every program is in some way a form of exponential(see GRG)), tough what is too vague(I would like to try and explain it and revise it on the page)?
> 1761410109 218421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166689&oldid=166688 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* How it functions */
< 1761410127 950383 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because examples are hard to compute manually
< 1761410142 215909 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i do not have the experience to write an interpreter as of currently
< 1761410153 726733 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i also need to leave, however, I will return to respond)
> 1761410408 52043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wlad 5*  10New user account
< 1761411119 101428 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761412780 629486 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761413144 119029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OverDeathKill14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166690 5* 03SzymoQwerty 5* (+1570) 10Created page with "{{infobox programming language | name = OverDeathKill | paradigm = esoteric | creator = [[User:SzymoQwerty]] | year = 2025 | influenced-by = [[Brainfuck|Brainfuck]] and being sadistic }}  '''OverDeathKill''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[Use
> 1761413243 191076 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:SzymoQwerty14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166691 5* 03SzymoQwerty 5* (+124) 10Created page with "Im SzymoQwerty and i LOVE making esolangs in python  I came here to contribute to esolangs.org (and share my monstrosities)!"
> 1761413317 704440 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07OverDeathKill14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166692&oldid=166690 5* 03SzymoQwerty 5* (-127) 10
< 1761413996 953774 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761418148 171837 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761418187 539353 :jgardner!sid553797@user/meow/jgardner NICK :june-o-lantern
> 1761419738 178897 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainfuck code generation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166693&oldid=166025 5* 03Waffelz 5* (-20) 10added BFASM and changed the list to be sorted alphabetically and removed redundant links to [[brainfuck]] and others
< 1761421146 81648 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Nigh
< 1761421147 74271 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :t
> 1761421780 901392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166694&oldid=166655 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+607) 10I am semi-active.
> 1761422036 898445 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jay14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166695 5* 03Jay 5* (+64) 10Created page with "'''USER: Jay''' 
 
 '''Languages:''' 
 * Pizzascript"
> 1761422311 332899 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Jay14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166696 5* 03Jay 5* (+197) 10/* PizzaScript */ new section
> 1761422555 668002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Jay14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166697&oldid=166696 5* 03Jay 5* (-197) 10/* PizzaScript */
> 1761422918 818041 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166698&oldid=166527 5* 03Jay 5* (+18) 10/* P */
> 1761425063 869923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kalavian 5*  10New user account
> 1761425702 858518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166699&oldid=166686 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+192) 10
> 1761425706 859589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GenderScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166700 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+1196) 10Created page with "[[Category:2025]] [[Category:Joke languages]] [[Category:Cell-based]] [[Category:Implemented]] GenderScript is a tiny transgender esoteric programming language created by Kalavian in 2025. The source code is available [https://github.com/Kalavian112/GenderScript o
> 1761425765 939007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GenderScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166701&oldid=166700 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+101) 10
> 1761425823 824608 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GenderScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166702&oldid=166701 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+37) 10
> 1761425837 542530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GenderScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166703&oldid=166702 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+8) 10
> 1761425878 510425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GenderScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166704&oldid=166703 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+55) 10
> 1761427261 191875 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZeroByte14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166705 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+488) 10Created page with "[[Category:2025]] [[Category:Zero-dimensional]] [[Category:Unusable for programming]] ZeroByte is a programming language designed for writing other tiny programming languages. A microlang can be implemented in ZeroByte in as little as one byte. ==Syntax== Each function
< 1761428658 411424 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761428957 925517 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761429061 38145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072147483647Funge14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166706 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+1919) 10Created page with "2147483647Funge is a '''2321'''-dimensional programming language. Each cell is written as its location followed by a command. The language also uses a dimension pointer, a 32-bit integer that represents the axis to be moved. Positive values move acro
> 1761429087 295644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072147483647Funge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166707&oldid=166706 5* 03Kalavian 5* (+25) 10
< 1761430211 61024 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d88f:2255:14bf:ec80 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761430595 280417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:TheCanon214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166708&oldid=151681 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+21) 10Added CARP
< 1761433898 190958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761434987 199202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166709 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+1667) 10Added CARP
> 1761435054 659324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166710&oldid=166709 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+0) 10
> 1761435820 209051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FUnctional staCK14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166711&oldid=166670 5* 03CatCatDeluxe 5* (+0) 10how did I get that math wrong
> 1761436530 888617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166712&oldid=166597 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+9) 10
> 1761439049 354814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166713&oldid=163731 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+12804) 10
< 1761443057 364924 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761447902 806228 :op_4!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761447937 911902 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
< 1761449491 283363 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is deliberately attacking your own pokemon in the Pokemon game (in a double battle) more common or less common than underpromotion in chess?
< 1761450327 82544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :much more common, I think
< 1761450354 471720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been tournaments where it was part of the most common strategy (e.g. using Beat Up on a Pokémon who has Justified)
< 1761450426 925772 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :usually the teams are designed to do it, using attacks that have very powerful side effects and do hardly any damage
< 1761450675 80489 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, it makes sense (I have not seen many tournaments). However, there are also cases where it was not the intention when making up the team (or if it is a random battle).
< 1761450679 430253 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one game I played (against an opponent who I think was probably a streamer based on the number of spectators who joined) went like this: on turn 1, my Smeargle used Ally Switch, my opponent's Bisharp used Sucker Punch (failing because I hadn't selected attacking moves), my opponent's Kangaskhan attacked the slot Smeargle swapped into with a normal-type move (failing because I had swapped a Ghost-type there), then my Jellicent used Trick Room; on turn 2, my 
< 1761450680 940810 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Smeargle used Volt Switch on Jellicent activating its Weakness Policy and switching in Pelipper who started rain, then Jellicent used Water Spout and OHKOed both opposing Pokémon, on turn 3 Jellicent used Water Spout again and OHKOed both of the opponent's replacement Pokémon
< 1761450703 514186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :smeargle was level 1 and had low special attack, so the Volt Switch on the Jellicent only did marginal damage
< 1761450756 53817 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, this was mostly a case of almost all my opponent using the same team and picking the same moves in the same contexts, so I had built specifically to counter it
< 1761450853 479146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :attacking a team-mate in a case where you hadn't planned the interaction when designing the team is rare, I don't know how that corresponds to underpromotion in frequency
< 1761450903 521086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(actually necessary underpromotions in chess are rare, but it's not so rare to underpromote to a rook if that gives a trivially winning endgame, because it reduces the chance of accidentally stalemating the opponent compared to promoting to a queen)
< 1761451110 166495 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I once heard of a situation where someone underpromoted to rook because they did not have a extra queen available near the board and did not want to stop the game to request it.
< 1761451815 463422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the normal solution to that problem is to use an upside-down rook
< 1761451954 323726 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I read that it is allowed in USCF but not allowed in FIDE.
< 1761452251 931699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine it isn't normally a problem at grandmaster level because there are very few positions likely to arise in a grandmaster game where one player has two queens, but neither player thinks they're losing badly enough to resign
< 1761452269 730780 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it has happened, I think – usually involving multiple queens for both players – but is very rare)
> 1761452283 117918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166714&oldid=165933 5* 03H33T33 5* (+4) 10
> 1761452360 946279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WTF14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166715&oldid=159223 5* 03H33T33 5* (-88) 10
< 1761452920 669976 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :In shogi there is no underpromotion but you can (usually) choose to not promote. Some pieces are strictly a superset of the moves that would be possible when not promoted; is it ever deliberately not promoting in such a case?
< 1761452944 378198 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The reason that I can think for doing this would be to avoid the rule prohibiting checkmate by dropping a pawn; maybe there is tsume shogi which involves it, possibly with discovered check by capturing opponent's pawn)
< 1761454017 100636 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761454320 911845 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have the full copy of the Pokemon team that you had for that game?
< 1761454450 700992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: oh, I searched through my old backups and think I was mentally conflating two different games
< 1761454458 287828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Ally Switch trick was from a different game
< 1761454491 516836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the actual game, Smeargle used Spiky Shield instead
< 1761454579 898626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's a version of the team from around that time (I don't know whether it's specific the team I actually used): http://nethack4.org/pastebin/27.txt
< 1761454613 465949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a later version of the same team had Ally Switch, but wasn't using Volt Switch by then
< 1761454636 814728 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why are you talking about Pokemon? (not to shoo you away just wondering lol)
< 1761454673 421190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: zzo38 does that sometimes
< 1761454685 770615 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!
< 1761454688 809631 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761454690 825107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's probably offtopic but I'm not sure where the appropriate place would be
< 1761454712 469944 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761454713 933766 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who is zzo38?
< 1761454716 205430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been some attempts to make competitive Pokémon into an esolang but I don't think they worked very well
< 1761454736 15202 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not surprising
< 1761454762 438649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :come to think of it, I'm actually not sure what complexity class solving Pokémon is in
< 1761454780 330496 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmm
< 1761454787 260296 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially given that the attempts by the game developers to prevent endless battles didn't quite work properly
< 1761454820 259149 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldnt be surprised if Pokemon is as powerfull as uknow good ol' magic the gathering
< 1761454825 14918 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*was
< 1761454842 849122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, some Turing-complete languages struggle to be Turing-complete, some achieve it trivially
< 1761454856 130777 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact
< 1761454865 671586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :M:tG is well into the "achieve it trivially" zone by now, it can do it lots of different ways and with some very simple constructions
< 1761454874 178524 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761454875 808601 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :other Turing-complete games, like Netrunner, it's much harder
< 1761454888 499656 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we love TC games around here
< 1761454899 481898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd suggest Pokémon is bounded by PP count, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I'm old-fashioned and stuck with an old generation.
< 1761454927 607207 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tbh, I dont know, I dont play much Pokemon anymore, and barely remember how it works
< 1761454939 636321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Recycle + Leppa Berry + Heal Pulse is the best-known combination to intentionally create an infinitely long battle
< 1761454952 237281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is somewhat infamous because, in some cases, you can do it despite attempts by your opponent to stop you
> 1761454967 279635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166716&oldid=166041 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+307) 10
< 1761454974 116052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that combination wasn't possible until generation V, there are some combinations that were possible earlier though
> 1761454993 712360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072I1IF14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166717&oldid=166621 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10
< 1761455030 335574 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im just throwing things out here, but could missingno not be useful... somehow?
< 1761455034 964470 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What I thought should be made up a rule change in Pokemon would be that some items and some movse are "unrecoverable". If a item is unrecoverable then it cannot be recovered during the same battle if it is consumed, and if a move is unrecoverable then that move's PP cannot be recovered during the battle.
< 1761455039 339107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there's also the infamous "two Wobbuffets who both have Leftovers" infinite loop in generation III, which was plausibly possible to trigger by accident because Leftovers is a good item to use on Wobbuffet and that was the only requirement for triggering it – it got patched out two different ways in Generation IV)
< 1761455070 900337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: there was a very complicated rule change at Smogon intended to try to prevent infinite battles without affecting any legitimate strategy
< 1761455173 260254 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, apparently in the end they just gave up trying to find all the possibilities and just banned Leppa Berry + Harvest and Leppa Berry + Recycle
< 1761455183 174937 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761455216 431954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…which wouldn't be enough unless you ban them both existing anywhere in the team, because you can give an opponent the Leppa Berry with one Pokémon and then steal it back with another (who has Harvest or Recycle)
< 1761455258 675377 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why doesnt Nintendo just give up lol
< 1761455329 26957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the previous versions of the rule looked like this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banning-leppa-berry.3544604/page-2#post-6335822
< 1761455381 237426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: oh, Game Freak (who actually make the Pokémon games, even though Nintendo own them) apparently gave up on this sort of stuff years ago (probably decades by this point)
< 1761455420 273652 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: great, I would guess there propably is more looping in the newer versions then lol
< 1761455435 108406 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :singles hasn't been reasonably balanced since Generation IV (and even that required a lot of bans), doubles is more balanced but has also been struggling somewhat
> 1761455449 759781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166718 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+186) 10Created page with "Imagine all of the C++, C, and C# Esolangs were all put in one list  ''thats what this is for''  well thats what I was going for.  If you know how to do this, please let me know"
> 1761455496 860693 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166719&oldid=166620 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* esolangs */
> 1761455545 717156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166720&oldid=166689 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-9) 10/* How it functions */
> 1761455617 918005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GRG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166721&oldid=166720 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+30) 10/* How it functions */
< 1761455638 400571 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is why I thought that making some moves/items unrecoverable might help, and adding something like the fifty move rule of chess might also help.
< 1761455747 23787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm this Smogon forums thread is actually amazing
< 1761455758 591582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the previous version I linked was really simple compared to some of the later ones
> 1761455848 435573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pass a symbol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166722&oldid=136619 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* NOR */
< 1761456041 975588 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: could I mayhaps ask a question about 90?
< 1761456053 874264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761456127 684057 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks! I was just wondering if it was possible to have two(or three ect) 90 programs destroying each other? and also is it possible to have it destroy itself?
< 1761456171 136274 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry if this is answered on the page)
< 1761456196 874169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :destroying each other is definitely possible, if the timing is right
< 1761456201 647526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :destroying itself, I'm not sure about
< 1761456222 470699 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe the latter question technically more is a computer question
< 1761456231 409886 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(can a program have access to itself)
< 1761456239 294953 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but thanks!!!
< 1761456250 18964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the spec doesn't prevent the program destroying itself, but the usual implementation would involve attaching a debugger and a program can't attach a debugger to itself, so maybe it would be simpler to disallow that
< 1761456268 959588 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a program can totally have access to its own memory, it just has to do it a different way from accessing a different program's memory)
< 1761456279 794406 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761456286 375239 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!!!
< 1761456378 895782 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, for the issue of having enough software running, could you not in principle just have a bunch of slightly differently set up instances of the same program?
< 1761456422 627329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of – the problem is that 90 programs run as quickly as possible and don't have any way to delay or the like
< 1761456430 679769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there's a risk that the first program would just exist before you tried to run the second one
< 1761456457 559569 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as such it's going to be unreliable to have a 90 program affecting a second copy of the 90 interpreter because you can't guarantee it's still running at the time
< 1761456477 255616 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, i wanst talking about 90 programs specifically
< 1761456484 210039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(affecting the program itself, while technically possible, wouldn't help at all because that just changes what the program says and you could have written it like that in the first place)
< 1761456489 344590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1761456491 934682 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just like any program
< 1761456544 410243 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the issue of 90 programs just running as fast as they can, isnt there a way to force a program to run at a certain rate?
< 1761456558 103704 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not within 90
< 1761456565 67320 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd have to use a separate program to do it
< 1761456593 859576 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or edit a separate program into doing that, which would be harder than just editing it to do what you wanted it to do in the first place)
< 1761456599 74998 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea I know
< 1761456680 843659 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the 90 program affects itself, if it is process by an interpreter then the interpreter could be damaged, or it damages the 90 program in a way which depends on the representation it has after it has been read from disk, possibly it has pointers, etc
< 1761456686 50302 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but is there a way to do that on a computer?
< 1761456695 815852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not easily
< 1761456699 910535 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1761456710 127749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could run the program in an emulator and tell the emulator to run slowly
< 1761456713 889706 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats quite surprising actually
< 1761456715 504980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you could single-step it in a debugger
< 1761456722 454686 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761456737 687357 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you could tell the kernel to give it only small timeslices (but that makes it run at full speed for a bit, stop for a while, at full speed for a bit, etc.)
< 1761456770 430194 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea something like that I was thinking
< 1761456775 575557 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could also underclock the computer, which would slow down everything
< 1761456789 739048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure how much underclocking modern computers can cope with
< 1761456789 859918 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that isnt very useful though
< 1761456803 679454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there have been historical computers that could be underclocked all the way to 0 but I think that doesn't work nowadays)
< 1761456817 213536 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :90 is very dependent on the system it is on
< 1761456866 591589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761456884 419338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would be a major flaw in most practical languages, but is interesting to experiment with with esolangs
< 1761456903 574569 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you kinda have to think of the computer as part of a specific programs function, because that(in principle) can change
< 1761456913 831809 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one mans flaw is another mans experiment
< 1761457056 906649 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i will definetily be experimenting a lot with (theoretical) programming technique's of 90
< 1761457663 680815 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a article in my user page on esolang wiki about some games; it mentions that Magic: the Gathering is Turing-complete but possibly someone should add details about this. (Also, can subgames and infinite loops make it uncomputable?)
< 1761457685 874187 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And, can a generalized variant of mahjong somehow be Turing-complete?)
< 1761457861 215583 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flooding_Waterfall_Model
< 1761457883 376374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :contains a simple proof of M:tG Turing-completeness (simple in terms of the M:tG setup, less simple in terms of proving the resulting language TC)
< 1761457896 865372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might want to link it from your userpage
< 1761457969 504578 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I will link it from the user page.
> 1761458062 589593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Game rules14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166723&oldid=162310 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+59) 10Link to [[Flooding Waterfall Model]]
< 1761458487 594339 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why do you have two pokemons with mega evolution stones? (I can think of a few reasons why someone might do that, but I don't know which one(s) are applicable here)
< 1761458512 740526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: it's designed for a format where you can only use four Pokémon from your team
< 1761458529 756019 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though you have six on your team
< 1761458650 726736 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :O, OK. (I should have thought of that, considering that they are level 50, but somehow I did not)
< 1761458854 150545 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761458860 506296 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nooooooooo
< 1761458862 70631 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761458950 419318 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, i was thinking if there was an interesting way to make the main form of data in an esolang threads(and threads within threads and so on)
< 1761458983 593449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere7: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Annihilator
< 1761458985 101162 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.68.59 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761458993 292689 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!
< 1761459271 102400 :Yayimhere7!~Yayimhere@197.185.175.91 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761459288 102534 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761460011 91590 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761460024 439592 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"especially given that the attempts by the game developers to prevent endless battles didn't quite work properly" => yeah, it's weird, especially when it's because of endless switching pokemon. you'd think they can put a limit on that, like requiring a move that makes progress before you can switch in the same pokemon in again (or the same pair of pokemons for a double battle).
< 1761460167 901654 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it was just some overpowered healing wearable item that outheals even Struggle backlash damage then it would be harder to prevent infinite loops, but I don't think that can happen in competitive pokemon
< 1761460346 106046 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought of that too, and my idea was to add a rule that if, for six consecutive turns, all active pokemons switch out, then no pokemon is allowed to select switching out during the immediately next turn (after that, this restriction goes away; it also goes away if anyone executes a move)
< 1761460468 78288 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Regenerator heals on switch, for more than Struggle recoil damage
< 1761460491 594980 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you have both teams with two regenerators with no PP left, optimal strategy is to switch forever
< 1761460497 289138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is unlikely to happen by chance, though
< 1761460573 124780 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: is that an ability that you can get in a competitive match?
< 1761460577 667933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761460582 585422 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1761460597 300250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it'd be weird to have it on two different Pokémon in a team, but not completely ridiculous
< 1761460642 329775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, Nintendo just released a new Pokémon game with no PP mechanics at all and so no Struggle either. and it's not like the first generation games when the devs had no experience yet and the console was limited.
< 1761460660 504114 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: and you'd need that for two teams, right?
< 1761460665 877224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1761460701 757988 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :PP is weird as mechanics go, especially given how it is often irrelevant but often isn't
< 1761460714 317783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :max PPs have generally been gradually reducing over time, too
< 1761460774 586139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which has made it more relevant in theory, but the games have been getting less balanced which counteracts that (as unbalanced battles often don't last very long)
< 1761460787 444739 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the new Pokemon game is not like the ordinary Pokemon game though; it is a different game, anyways.
< 1761460789 747105 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that doesn't seem weird. decking out is often irrelevant in Magic because usually you want to kill in the first few turns, but sometimes it is relevant, and you can build decks that deliberately want to deck out the opponent
< 1761461153 210796 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the nonstandard rules that I had mentioned (as well as something a bit similar to the fifty move rule of chess) would be used, then I think that would help with that as well as with a few other things, I think.
< 1761461354 450881 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761461465 777123 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some of these nonstandard rules will not help if it is intended to be compatible with standard rules, but some are compatible with standard rules. Unrecoverable moves/items are not compatible but the rule about six consecutive turns with switching would be compatible, I think.)
< 1761466021 101122 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761466522 624344 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166724&oldid=166698 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* G */ added [[GRG]]
< 1761466536 559861 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761466551 99980 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761467071 100737 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761472514 834951 :Everything!~Everythin@88.155.56.97 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1761473260 995987 :Everything!~Everythin@88.155.56.97 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1761474769 943150 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761477141 225280 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761477608 483395 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5*  10New user account
< 1761478500 901979 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1761478722 881239 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761478742 889351 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1761480732 233157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166725&oldid=166681 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* See also */
< 1761480914 102484 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761481791 956416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166726&oldid=166694 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+482) 10You're tailor-made for this day and age
> 1761482436 172432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166727&oldid=166725 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-22) 10/* Description */
> 1761482764 419329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unrepetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166728&oldid=166683 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+389) 10
< 1761484179 100748 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761484949 483179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs : `' sunday
< 1761484991 391654 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`' sunday
< 1761484993 806736 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :759)  Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday. \ 918)  not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday.
> 1761485485 847670 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166729&oldid=166699 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+266) 10/* Introductions */
< 1761485918 19747 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761485918 88131 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761487147 100513 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761487202 971233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166730 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1184) 10Created page with "IEBEL is an [[OISC]] [[esoteric programming language]] short for in-equality branch esotering language by [[Esoboring ideas] which doesn't have any interpreters yet ==Memory== Every register has the values of 0-255 ==The instruction== ===Main things=== it is like 
< 1761487754 484726 :pr1sm!~halloy349@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :halloy3497
> 1761487779 683032 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Trilime14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166731 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+146) 10Created page with "nooooo, dont change iiit!!!! --~~~~"
> 1761488097 39242 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alex14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166732&oldid=77727 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-13) 10brainfuck does not have a stack. Added stub, as there are only example programs and no actual specification.
< 1761488219 535271 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761488662 248631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166733&oldid=166730 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1) 10
> 1761488693 377109 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166734&oldid=166727 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+13) 10/* Description */
< 1761489267 839899 :pr1sm!~halloy349@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761489281 323882 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761489303 288871 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761489317 916918 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761489325 828157 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761489339 322295 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761489363 54162 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761489377 933251 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761489390 861162 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1761489448 163341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166735&oldid=166710 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+34) 10Added opcodes
< 1761489588 528272 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1761489596 761756 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
> 1761489828 760894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166736&oldid=166733 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+5) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1761489892 71360 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166737&oldid=166736 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-46) 10/* See also */ delete oisc and esolang from see also, as they are just the category of the language, and they have already been linked
> 1761489906 11055 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166738&oldid=166737 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+7) 10/* Hello world simple version */
> 1761490034 16199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166739&oldid=166738 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+48) 10/* See also */
> 1761490213 653265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IEBEL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166740 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+371) 10Created page with "== See also section hello! so, I'd just like to say, you are using the see also section weirdly. it is mostly for language's and such that are similar to this language, and so it shouldn't have hello world, just because you've implemented a hello world. --~
> 1761490230 417315 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166741&oldid=166740 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+3) 10
> 1761490247 16780 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166742&oldid=166739 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+0) 10/* Truth machine */
< 1761490717 980480 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761491218 1551 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any esolangs that basically function by destroying their own rules. and is it possible to make that Turing complete?
< 1761492054 969084 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl JOIN #esolangs FreeFull :FreeFull
< 1761493389 36794 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: there's a language that destroys integers so you can no longer use them, does that count?
< 1761493410 524606 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
< 1761493427 597939 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: like I guess it technically does, but not *really* since integers is data
< 1761493441 625059 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also forte doesn't really destroy it, just, redefines them
< 1761493462 842349 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when im saying rules im thinking like uknow how a CA has rules, or syntax rules, ect ect
< 1761493579 689418 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :forte isn't really destroying its own rules, it just ignores a rule that most other languages have
< 1761493602 41798 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: great way to word it lol
< 1761493617 37682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C-INTERCAL allows you to compile syntax errors, then later on you can create new syntax to give the syntax errors a meaning
< 1761493627 383480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they'll actually run
< 1761493637 751495 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1761493639 392854 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761493646 463857 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Is creation of new rules also possible? If not then the system will invariably degenerate as it loses degrees of freedom.
< 1761493659 926534 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is interesting because it is actually a compiled language – a syntax error compiles into code that checks to see if the syntax it contained has been defined yet)
< 1761493685 117651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that would be manageable if there were infinitely many rules (or infinitely many destroyable parts of a single rule)
< 1761493690 789382 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I'm saying Forte is destroying numbers, not rules
< 1761493710 216546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Forte's a bit like that, in that after you destroy a number you have no way to get it back, but it's still TC because there are infinitely many numbers to start with
< 1761493731 563843 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are plenty of machines which boot into an unrestricted mode at first, allowing many sorts of features to be accessed, but then is locked into a restricted mode for the rest of its execution. Some of those machines support further restriction of features, too. But they usually have a minimum amount of features which is enough to write basic logical operations.
< 1761493745 752450 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761493749 248179 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: right, it's somewhat like that brainfuck variant that destroys its own tape cells so they can no longer be modified
< 1761493758 100412 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761493768 472117 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1761493774 367975 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. I suppose I'm assuming a finite number of rules; clearly I'm too logic-brained today.
< 1761493788 142249 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korov: lol
< 1761493859 661593 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe a program is made up of: a rule that gets destroyed, then a number, which equals some measure of decay(of the language itself)and then a new rule that gets created when that number is reached
< 1761493869 657317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: so a common way I go about esolang design, which you might also want to try, is to take your idea and try to work out what the simplest possible version of it is that could possibly be TC
< 1761493882 7236 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: true
< 1761493888 281350 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :frog it, ill go try something
< 1761493894 917028 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye! irc is lagging like hell
< 1761493901 697864 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the aim is to act entirely by destroying rules, we need infinitely many rules for it to work, and the simplest possible implementation is probably "each rule can only be used once"
< 1761493905 345114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IRC is always laggy.
< 1761493926 603093 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761494123 66293 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IOW the system's dynamics are a set of permuted sequences of the nats, N → N. Each initial segment of such a sequence corresponds to a legal move. Pretty sure by Gödelian reasoning that this can't be decided; in particular I don't think it's possible to compute a sufficiently-correct approximation of how the rules work by observing legal sequences.
< 1761494305 644598 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait, we do have the perfect thing that destroys its own rules
< 1761494351 42682 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashalash
< 1761494355 623125 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761494385 691830 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761495022 879739 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d098:a904:cd59:ff9f QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761495052 100584 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761495079 842614 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok people, I think ive gotten an idea for the concept
< 1761495088 633268 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one that might be able to be TC
< 1761495114 2949 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :every rule is in a specific rule definition syntax/language(one is to be chosen)
< 1761495146 92129 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then each line is "delete *command* from every rule".
< 1761495202 536464 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at the start of a program there is a string in the same language of rule's, which gets added to every rule statement in the program
< 1761495231 837187 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this includes the string itself and every *command*(or string technically))
< 1761495274 923036 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashalash and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA destroy the rules in the program as it uses them
< 1761495275 816470 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i beleive an abstain and reinstate (INTERCAL style) may be useful, but I dont know if its required
< 1761495296 661626 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b-jonas: thanks!
> 1761495330 347745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07///14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166743&oldid=159964 5* 03B jonas 5* (+97) 10/* See also */
< 1761495365 84415 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does /// really destroy its own rules?
< 1761495379 552995 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*really*
< 1761495380 782282 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761495566 784244 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think of /// more as being in the "program queue/stack" genre, where bits of the program delete themselves after they've run but you can add more
< 1761495761 856481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :execline does that too
< 1761495780 196656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except I don't think it takes advantage of the way the genre typically does loops)
< 1761496002 168319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761496012 552021 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761496451 100445 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761497131 101153 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761497147 662576 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: in fact
< 1761497160 141814 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(im replying to the /// thing btw)
< 1761497167 647103 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(idk what else you may have been sending)
< 1761497291 886928 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, for the specific language idea I have proposed, does anyone know a good "rule language"?
< 1761497433 988750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you have to work it out to fit around the rest of the language
< 1761497461 303548 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh?
< 1761497467 531828 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry I dont fully understand
< 1761497516 798470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, the rules are the core of the language you're designing
< 1761497525 432313 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761497541 641048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you need to work out how much power they need to be interesting (i.e. you don't want a single rule to be able to trivialise everything, nor do you want to make the rules so weak you can't get interesting computaiton)
< 1761497552 705689 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I Guess in that view underload destroys rules too
< 1761497582 15782 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: by destroy, I dont just mean redefine or similar, I mean delete from existing rules
< 1761497590 284633 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: thanks!!!
< 1761497635 39560 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :btw i wad thinking that the rules should be the literal rules of the language itself
< 1761497636 29606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There aren't any good rule languages. We have good completeness results for several classes of grammar, which can be seen as rewriting systems, but none of them are...good. It doesn't help that "rule" isn't a single standard thing.
< 1761497638 668977 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*was
< 1761497680 724537 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: oh no
< 1761497722 718970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: one of my pet peeves is how bad the popular grammar specification languages are
< 1761497750 999981 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Right!? ANTLR's the biggest disappointment.
< 1761497770 978872 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I hadn't even looked deeply into ANTLR's syntax because I was busy being disappointed with the semantics
< 1761497786 272353 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess technically by rules I mean interpreter
< 1761497800 624639 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but each part of the interpreter is in its own little
< 1761497801 681983 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing
< 1761497803 172457 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could clumsily knock down function definitions in efghij. That's why efghij shops have those big empty warehouse floor spaces, and barely payed interns who rebuild their code from backups when necessary.
< 1761497872 634908 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Sure. What we're saying is that the choice of objects (the things we manipulate) is connected to the choice of rules (the things that manipulate objects for us). It's easy to see the general idea, but we always have to specialize it for the domain at hand.
< 1761497895 722413 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: in fact
< 1761497910 681821 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also thanks for all the help guys, really do appreciate it)
< 1761497957 851921 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rules are already defined, the only thing missing is like, the language to write the rules in
< 1761497972 22693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, what's wrong with the language that you already used for the definitions?
< 1761497985 401940 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats not a formal language though
< 1761497996 351376 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I need like something an interpreter could interpret
< 1761498050 809660 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Same thing. Like, if you formalize the language you already have, then you'll need to give formal meanings to that language which gives meaning to your rules; if you translate the rules into some other syntax, then you'll need to give formal meanings to that syntax.
< 1761498067 63403 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498077 222955 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fuck it im making my own rule definition syntax
< 1761498093 474960 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats most definitely easier than trying to find something good
< 1761498106 384579 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(As Tarski pointed out: there's no ultimate semantics for something as simple as the natural numbers. Maybe we shouldn't try to figure out problems in an ultimate manner.)
< 1761498158 941873 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761498166 911582 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one technically possible thing(if the language is Turing complete) is to make the rules be defined within the language itself
< 1761498168 531289 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is
< 1761498169 879624 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :stupid
< 1761498173 272579 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but oh well
< 1761498182 636853 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe I'll do that one day
< 1761498194 275679 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's not something TC-ness does, though?
< 1761498214 32525 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it isnt
< 1761498232 832268 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you want to interpret a language, then that interpreter must be relative to the machine that you're using for interpretation. Even if you're a human doing symbols on paper, you're still interpreting relative to the paper and symbols.
< 1761498241 692859 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761498244 759218 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats true
< 1761498269 52783 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :TC languages aren't defined in terms of themselves. Rather, it's common for programmers to *bootstrap* a language by implementing itself as a demonstration of its generality and usefulness.
< 1761498292 168715 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498308 484175 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :By modus tollens, many programmers consider a language weak for general-purpose use when it can't express an interpreter for itself, or when its interpreter/compiler is ugly.
< 1761498319 332548 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeayeayeayea
< 1761498319 833038 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(me when I have nothing to say)
< 1761498347 990963 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.mcmillen.dev/language_checklist.html Haaave you seen this yet? This is a great checklist for *serious* languages. Like, stuff you might take to your boss when you have a job in a decade.
< 1761498361 257556 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways, I will now make a rule language to describe the rules of this language
< 1761498372 276549 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no I haven't actually, ill go look at it!
< 1761498375 993044 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This wouldn't apply to most stuff on the wiki. I filled it out for Monte and Cammy, but mostly because I have a serious contempt for mainstream opinions.
< 1761498432 537989 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: There's a great meme in the fourth section. "The most significant program written in your language is its own compiler", followed by "The most significant program written in your language isn't even its own compiler". This is what we mean when we say that a good TC language should be able to implement itself.
< 1761498449 772398 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498472 554552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But note also in the fourth section, "No language spec", and "'The implementation is the spec'". These are serious critiques; Python's core team still doesn't take the latter seriously.
< 1761498501 742502 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1761498590 870426 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761498619 672264 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I assume the checklist isnt meant to apply to esolangs?
< 1761498637 96780 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they definetily lack comprehensible syntax
< 1761498763 774645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/92d70fbcbe1291f1aa7c5cedca90345b8a95f6cc/checklist.txt Here's the checklist for Monte.
< 1761498793 883271 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Recall that an esolang is just a language that isn't notable enough for Wikipedia. It's really not more complex than that. I wrote more words here: https://lobste.rs/s/ksrmbf/let_s_take_esoteric_programming
< 1761498811 983038 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1761498813 284984 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498826 82798 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(yes, malbolge is not esolang)
< 1761498830 214598 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :brainfuck is notable enough for WP:)
< 1761498859 33207 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :malbolge. is notable enough. for WP.... XD
< 1761498859 533732 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not to undermine your point though korvo, your not wrong
< 1761498916 650910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think of Brainfuck or Malbolge as esoteric! I think that folks use "esoteric" as a shield to avoid having to deal with the typical barbs of capitalism: how will you monetize? what's the license? would you sign this contract?
< 1761498935 422391 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1761498939 547092 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but wow
< 1761498946 580333 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they are just hard
< 1761498951 987011 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to usee
< 1761498966 714350 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Because those lead to less obvious barbs: why isn't it readable? why isn't it optimized? why doesn't it support my preferred expensive proprietary OS?
< 1761498995 412342 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BASIC's hard to use, but it was shipped as a default for years. C++'s horribly hard to use, and it's considered the most macho and manly way to program.
< 1761499021 228141 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the funniest shit ive ever read
< 1761499044 747924 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i am quite sad I cannot fill out this list, as I dont actually have any languages I advocate for
< 1761499126 539362 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You're not expected to be able to fill out this list yet. Don't worry about it. Also, many folks would suggest that the checklist isn't to be taken seriously and that any language designer who uses it is hobbling themselves.
< 1761499142 64130 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1761499155 694968 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I know im not expected to, but I'd like to do it)
< 1761499172 138215 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(maybe imm going to fill it in as a joke lol)
< 1761499766 528494 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats a really funny checklist
> 1761499992 831896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166744&oldid=166729 5* 03Wlad 5* (+308) 10Add Wlad's introduction
< 1761501675 863334 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761501884 597187 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166745&oldid=166734 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+39) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
< 1761502356 646314 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand()" hehe (from that checklist that korvo linked)
< 1761502372 266308 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't think notability is a good way to define esolangs – the other way round is more obvious, there are plenty of very conventionally designed languages which aren't big or well-known enough to have a Wikipedia page (but unfortunately they're generally obscure enough that I haven't heard of most of them)
< 1761502438 630461 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's not notability as much as the degree of exploitation which society hopes to induce. An "up-and-coming" language is usually described in terms of its velocity rather than its current features.
< 1761502461 202023 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but something like Malbolge is fairly clearly an esolang, I think, because the design goal of "make the language as hard to write in as possible" is diametrically opposed to the standard goals of programming languages
< 1761502473 650785 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia's merely willing to allow capitalist propaganda as primary sources. Many such cases.
< 1761502494 298373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I find it hard to see programming languages as generally being inherently capitalist – implementations, maybe
< 1761502540 91634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The diametric opposition is what, "make the language as easy to write in as possible"? There's only one language in popular use with that goal, Python. Such languages are usually pretty rare and also bad; Quorum's my usual punching bag.
< 1761502569 740179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's more that most languages value being easy to write over being difficult to write – in many cases that isn't a primary goal, but might be a tiebreak
< 1761502580 949179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tiebreaking by picking the more difficult option would be unusual
< 1761502585 877135 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, python doesn't purely do that, there are a few places where python is harder to write because of some historical compatibility thing, but it is close enough
< 1761502585 923638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if all other things are equal
< 1761502618 754486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :likewise, most languages will tiebreak by trying to copy what programmers are familiar with and what other languages have done, being different for the sake of being different is how you end up with INTERCAL
< 1761502653 802711 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: A good counterexample is C, which had design goals involving being easy for computers to parse and compile, and was ultimately steered by compilability. It competed with Fortran in that arena and won handily.
< 1761502654 141961 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah yes, that's how you end up with Rust's syntax :-(
< 1761502662 459293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(working on C-INTERCAL was fun, especially when we found ways to be different that actually had compensating advantages)
< 1761502703 833930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you're misunderstanding me – in C, writability is not a primary goal but it is still considered desirable, it just sometimes has to be compromised on to meet other design goals
< 1761502707 277424 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, making things different is a goal that you can do in games like M:tG or Factorio and can result in very enjoyable builds
< 1761502726 268240 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and sometimes you can discover builds that are different and also better when steered by this
< 1761502733 78197 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ECMAScript's another counterexample; the design goal there was to look like Java and the rush to market ate all other goals. A lot of the worst ugliness like `with` has been deprecated, but that's explicitly because E's authors decided to heavily influence it.
< 1761502756 971469 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I understand your point but I think it's straight-up wrong, sorry.
< 1761502783 706824 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not very agreeable today and I'll shut up after this. I'm just tired of the way that capitalism's bent all of our sciences.
< 1761502811 864014 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761502832 582371 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: did Javascript really want to look more like Java than look like C? I think it wanted to look like C, but Java also wanted to look like C, and it's only that why they look alike. the Java got in the name for marketing, because Java was already used for in-browser client-side programming
< 1761502841 193739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess a good way to see the point is to consider why most languages are not adding politeness-checking features from INTERCAL – they choose to leave it out, even if excluding them has nothing to do with the language's design goals
< 1761502901 753426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that this is not a coincidence and there's some plausible model of language designers that explains why they are all making the same choice there
< 1761503165 791212 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the politeness checking might be one of those jokes that are only funny once
< 1761503184 480906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes, but why do languages have a bias towards not including unfunny jokes rather than including them?
< 1761503192 801044 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and why do most esolangs.org contributors have the opposite bias?)
< 1761503314 328926 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the latter, becuase most people make esolangs alone and it's hard to judge which of your own jokes are funny
< 1761503400 134374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I think that might be starting to get close to the esolang distinction
< 1761503431 183436 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fewer designers a language has, the more likely it is to be an esolang – even if a solo dev attempts to make a practical language it often ends up with esolang-like elements
< 1761503439 193539 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't care too much about the esolang distinction as in which languages are esoteric, and I'm happy to document non-esoteric languages on the esowiki
< 1761503459 136191 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, maybe I care a little bit
< 1761503467 673311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: historically there was a consensus to not document BANCSTAR on the wiki because it was considered to be not esoteric enough
< 1761503474 34237 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although at some point that changed
< 1761503541 698901 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've documented at least one language on the esowiki that's both clearly non-esoteric and is notable enough for en.wikipedia to hvae an article
< 1761503643 293807 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I did make one compromise to the wiki being mostly about esoteric languages, which is that I kept https://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX as the main language on that title, rather than switch it over or at least make it a disambig page
< 1761504154 990959 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761507662 731343 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :LiveScript's Java co-branding was a very late change...
> 1761509446 595025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166746&oldid=166713 5* 03Placeholding 5* (-4) 10
< 1761509562 389106 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1761509679 62228 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I made some additions of the programming language check list:  gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/language_checklist.txt
< 1761509792 757756 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Probably I missed some stuff)
< 1761509819 468205 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761509942 146376 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, about which programming languages are "esoteric": I seem to remember someone mentioning that PostScript is both esoteric and not esoteric; it seems to me that PostScript is also both general-purpose and domain-specific, and both text and binary.
< 1761510129 504164 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1761511074 915970 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761511271 4677 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not sure that there is really a single clear definition of "esoteric programming", but some of the mentions might be good points
< 1761511342 880559 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761511455 230973 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some stuff I had made which is not really intended to be esolangs nevertheless has unusual stuff, and some other people might have done for other reasons
< 1761511626 328987 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761511751 692577 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think one common characteristic is that esoteric languages are too simple (and often too weird) to be useful for mainstream programming
< 1761511786 830457 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :the don't have specification running into a hundred pages
< 1761511822 475380 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some features of Free Hero Mesh are the way that they are for compatibility with MESH:Hero (also has a single designer as far as I know), but some are my own ideas.)
< 1761511833 704091 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :tromp: That is probably also a good point
< 1761511882 599396 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :so let me ask: what is the simplest non-esoteric language?
< 1761511959 265144 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, uxn is simple but also many useful programs have been made (including text editor, picture editor, calendar, clock, card games, and other programs)
< 1761512193 525373 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :are those written in uxn or in some other language that compiles to uxn?
< 1761512333 424516 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Most of them are written directly in uxn (using the assembler).
< 1761512393 741730 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't uxntal the language?
< 1761512435 434333 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, uxntal is the assembler which is used; it is mostly just writing the instructions directly although there are a few things such as labels, like many assemblers have
< 1761512972 731898 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :toy cpus like uxn and chip-8 are somewhat in between esoteric and mainstream languages
< 1761513066 857379 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :they would have been mainstream in the hobby computer era but no longer are on modern machines
< 1761513152 208951 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :the original scheme had a modest spec at 48 pages
< 1761513315 231280 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :R3RS is even shorter at 41 pages
< 1761513375 325419 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :while the modern R7RS small edition is 84 pages
< 1761513540 442446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can imagine a rudimentary (pre-POSIX) make(1) that's practically useful and very easy to specify
< 1761513586 192344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from the opposite end, golfing languages are often considered esoteric but can be very difficult to specify
< 1761513618 231410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(TIO! classifies languages into "practical" and "recreational" rather than "esoteric" and "non-esoteric", and puts golfing languages in the recreational category, even though they are occasionally practically useful)
< 1761513672 963279 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tricks to shorten uxn programs are common even though that is (probably) not the primary use of uxn.
< 1761513739 23226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761513938 33915 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(One advantage of uxn is that it is simpler and can easily be ported to many computers)
> 1761514151 303970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166747&oldid=166712 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+26) 10
< 1761514245 916427 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761514500 32183 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Some tricks take advantage of circular stacks, such as the "DUP2k EOR2" trick and the "GTHrk JMPrk BRK" trick)
> 1761515518 411659 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166748&oldid=166747 5* 03Dmiz 5* (-21) 10
< 1761516668 680244 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761522456 729431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166749 5* 03Jay 5* (+2) 10Created page with "gh"
> 1761525439 912568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166750&oldid=166724 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+18) 10
> 1761525511 33438 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166751&oldid=166749 5* 03Jay 5* (+2464) 10/* PizzaScript */
> 1761525580 883269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Jay14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166752&oldid=166695 5* 03Jay 5* (+4) 10
> 1761525611 170089 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166753&oldid=166751 5* 03Jay 5* (-16) 10
> 1761526006 785254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166754&oldid=166172 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1190) 10
> 1761526720 466093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166755&oldid=166753 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+276) 10formatting + categories
< 1761526725 711609 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761528200 45315 :FreeFull!~freefull@79.186.201.19.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761529122 264332 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761530411 185157 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761530427 831537 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
> 1761531478 542219 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pain14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166756&oldid=160971 5* 03RetroPain 5* (+45) 10
< 1761531569 323428 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1761536863 771502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166757&oldid=140738 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+18) 10
> 1761537547 665595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:H311 Assembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166758&oldid=160428 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+698) 10/* Welcome to the talk page for Inferno */
< 1761538084 100818 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761538426 974034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166759&oldid=166745 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+140) 10/* Description */
< 1761540313 104396 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761541770 421149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166760&oldid=166759 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-7) 10/* Description */
< 1761541867 101573 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761541986 875635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166761&oldid=166760 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10/* See also */
> 1761542294 857983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166762&oldid=166761 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+114) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
> 1761542306 244535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166763&oldid=166762 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
> 1761542641 71276 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166764&oldid=166763 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-32) 10/* Description */
> 1761542847 426207 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166765&oldid=166764 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+40) 10/* Description */
< 1761543431 327321 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761549151 268233 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761550170 17470 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761550257 102127 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761550413 801127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166766&oldid=166765 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+85) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples(WIP) */
< 1761551854 715680 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761551871 145875 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello epic!
< 1761551874 274848 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Apic
> 1761552163 318036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166767&oldid=143373 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+14) 10/* System */
< 1761552585 102287 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1761552657 101830 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761553280 819865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166768&oldid=166767 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+387) 10/* System */
> 1761553672 80118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166769&oldid=166768 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+222) 10
< 1761554067 102431 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@160.119.235.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761555236 357909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166770&oldid=166742 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+4) 10/* Control negatives */
> 1761555310 185378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166771&oldid=166770 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1) 10/* Control negatives */
> 1761555588 674854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166772&oldid=166771 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+0) 10
> 1761555601 566790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IEBEL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166773&oldid=166772 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+87) 10
> 1761556951 94971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esoboring ideas14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166774 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+184) 10Created page with "I am very intersted in math and [[esoteric programming language]]s yet i created only [[IEBEL]] and gamma-calculus(didn't publish) i would like some questions ==Questions== ==Answers=="
> 1761557098 476232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esoboring ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166775&oldid=166774 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+1) 10/* Questions */
> 1761557139 688407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esoboring ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166776&oldid=166775 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (-185) 10Blanked the page
< 1761563799 799257 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761565122 887229 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761565128 973096 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761565207 565725 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1761567035 100731 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1761567072 152040 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think someone may have replied to a message after I logged of from IRC, because I got (2) instead of (1)
> 1761567099 480040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166777&oldid=166769 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-38) 10/* System */
> 1761567304 298145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166778&oldid=166777 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+233) 10/* System */
> 1761567427 924497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166779&oldid=166778 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+42) 10/* System */
> 1761568088 847887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166780&oldid=166779 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+425) 10/* System */
> 1761568350 248239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166781&oldid=166780 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* System */
> 1761568572 323410 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166782&oldid=166781 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+53) 10/* System */
< 1761568589 686200 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok i have a questions
< 1761568599 984150 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :arent all languages that can simply define functions TC?
< 1761568606 488952 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za PRIVMSG #esolangs :since lambda calculus
> 1761568846 417401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166783&oldid=166782 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+131) 10/* System */
> 1761569007 761044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kind n' Single14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166784&oldid=166783 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-85) 10/* System */
< 1761569102 379618 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you can define nested functions, and return functions, and not have to type them, then i think yes
< 1761569211 393777 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@vc-gp-n-105-245-36-116.umts.vodacom.co.za QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761569402 271012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wodan58 5*  10New user account
< 1761569552 363584 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
> 1761569800 972700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166785&oldid=166744 5* 03Wodan58 5* (+279) 10/* Introductions */
> 1761569859 475890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Wodan5814]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166786 5* 03Wodan58 5* (+43) 10Created page with "Maintainer of the Programming Language Joy."
< 1761569880 100919 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1761569896 862936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Wodan5814]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166787 5* 03Wodan58 5* (+18) 10Created page with "Talking to myself."
> 1761569939 764455 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Manfred von Thun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166788&oldid=166355 5* 03Wodan58 5* (+0) 10
< 1761571572 557995 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1761572712 210447 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761575013 337832 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XUS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166789&oldid=133708 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+40) 10/* examples */
> 1761575150 6107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Final Word Of The Day14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166790&oldid=138940 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-68) 10
> 1761575152 846102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yappacino14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166791&oldid=159592 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+0) 10Hoist infobox to the top
< 1761575326 778249 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761575356 360694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Final Word Of The Day14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166792&oldid=166790 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Properties */
< 1761575759 274751 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello chhat
< 1761575822 598121 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this documentation good? if not, then why:
< 1761575823 98242 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Utral
> 1761576058 207493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BF Lite14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166793 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+152) 10Created page with "but the cells is the array though. --~~~~"
> 1761576379 283645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166794 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+2026) 101/3 assembled
> 1761576463 973298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166795&oldid=166794 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+0) 10wrong brackets, sorry
< 1761576864 397688 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761578556 865310 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.162.246 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761579176 101649 :Guest47!~Guest47@n72pnmrxm9b65hx090y-1.v6.elisa-mobile.fi JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest47
< 1761579201 250684 :Guest47!~Guest47@n72pnmrxm9b65hx090y-1.v6.elisa-mobile.fi QUIT :Client Quit
> 1761579482 329201 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166796&oldid=166795 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+7) 10Told you I was stupid (fixed Truth machine)
> 1761579584 18887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166797&oldid=166726 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+114) 10add dango to the list
> 1761579732 775627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166798&oldid=166796 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+11) 10
< 1761580788 243909 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761581353 397632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Manfred von Thun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166799&oldid=166788 5* 03Wodan58 5* (+12) 10
< 1761582247 252612 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761585682 821675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Manfred von Thun14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166800&oldid=166799 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+2) 10past tense
< 1761586897 911894 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761588712 70423 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761589567 855818 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1761589791 366511 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 JOIN #esolangs * :op_4
< 1761590119 279600 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761590179 956345 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1761590255 893461 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761590256 219377 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761590256 247099 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761590256 368586 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761590256 845804 :op_4_!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 NICK :op_4
< 1761590270 976121 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot NICK :perlbot
< 1761590360 310773 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761590975 268637 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761591052 5638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166801&oldid=151431 5* 03 5* (+44) 10Categories
> 1761591064 807979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabetack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166802&oldid=166801 5* 03 5* (+2) 10
< 1761591614 859710 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1761591795 340001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166803&oldid=166798 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+3) 10/* Truth Machine */ I am such an idiot :C
< 1761592809 928499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1761595247 586782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collern14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166804&oldid=166748 5* 03Dmiz 5* (+43) 10
> 1761597656 611648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lindenmayer14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166805 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+1115) 10Created Lindenmayer
< 1761597657 110893 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :There seems to be JSON query but not so much ASN.1 query
> 1761598522 402355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lindenmayer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166806&oldid=166805 5* 03Calculus is fun 5* (+126) 10/* Examples */
< 1761604189 558871 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761604363 300314 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1761606745 21824 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166807&oldid=166194 5* 03H33T33 5* (+121) 10
< 1761607097 489154 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.43.63 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1761607097 560181 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.43.63 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1761607424 910775 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFASM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166808&oldid=166198 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+3034) 10update for BFASM v0.1
< 1761610283 16415 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761610951 512387 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761610983 254185 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1761610983 323918 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1761613305 570433 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1761624178 599086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166809&oldid=156658 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+289) 10
> 1761626599 216768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166810&oldid=166766 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+78) 10
> 1761626772 218718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166811&oldid=166810 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples */
> 1761626914 668015 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166812&oldid=166811 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples */
< 1761630428 43881 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
> 1761630512 922389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166813&oldid=166812 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+305) 10
< 1761630702 527204 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1761630863 129133 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761632978 457444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166814&oldid=164574 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+43) 10
> 1761633291 66631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PoptartPlungerBoi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166815&oldid=148732 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+172) 10
< 1761635722 456199 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761638761 564952 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761642219 580177 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761642351 17349 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761642554 652927 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CodeMelon 5*  10New user account
> 1761644102 547281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166816&oldid=166785 5* 03CodeMelon 5* (+412) 10
> 1761644235 904747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CodeMelon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166817 5* 03CodeMelon 5* (+45) 10Created page with "Im making my own language right now type shit"
> 1761644974 297142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166818&oldid=164440 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+232) 10
> 1761646742 128259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166819&oldid=166803 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+765) 10Dango overhaul, maybe I should add cookies :D
> 1761646985 257225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Final Word Of The Day14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166820&oldid=166792 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+3) 10
> 1761647249 593072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PkmnQ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166821&oldid=166809 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+118) 10/* Thanks!!! */
> 1761649127 255005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Flash shockwave has been discontinued.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166822 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+158) 10Created page with "where is the actually documentation ???? --~~~~"
> 1761650295 625814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166823&oldid=166819 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+212) 10memory system + file extensions + paradigm + naming consistencies
> 1761650398 376675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Call/cc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166824&oldid=46403 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+279) 10
< 1761651501 975881 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761651535 965783 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761651583 448595 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1761654745 545069 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EvenOdd14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166825&oldid=154767 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* Nand */ Because of pemdas, these brackets are not needed
< 1761655129 105589 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:b825:23c0:1f89:fdbd QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761656029 842526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07(...) IS 2D!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166826&oldid=130365 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-69) 10
> 1761657128 691068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Redefine Symbol14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166827&oldid=108791 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+7) 10/* Computational class */
> 1761657459 668419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope. without a quine including cheating ones but I was extra smart and let the one Quine not be a Quine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166828 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+436) 10Created page with "'''Nope. without a quine including cheating ones but I was extra smart and let the one Quine not be a Quine''' is [[Nope. without a quine including cheating ones]]
> 1761657460 335629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166829&oldid=166594 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+543) 10/* Does this count */ new section
> 1761657574 557400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166830&oldid=166829 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+258) 10/* Oh yeah and this */ new section
< 1761658074 848717 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761658329 522455 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1761658372 939801 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1761660046 295779 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761660917 235219 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761661310 103844 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761663849 218159 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761666062 549692 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1761666532 502040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underflow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166831 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1504) 10Created page with "'''Underflow''' is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], to make a [[Pushdown automata]] able to solve the problem that it is unable to do the problem with a b and c. it is most likely Turing complete, however there is currently no proof of this. == Mem
> 1761666821 555023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underflow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166832&oldid=166831 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+305) 10/* Commands */
> 1761667007 298747 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underflow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166833&oldid=166832 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+143) 10
> 1761667046 419636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underflow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166834&oldid=166833 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+22) 10/* Examples */
< 1761667525 825510 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761667734 512979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166835&oldid=150026 5* 03 5* (+147) 10/* A request */ new section
> 1761668000 86708 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02Estrita10]] to [[User:Aadenboy/Estrita]]: funny concept, not interesting idea. won't be going anywhere with this any time soon
> 1761668044 119917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166838&oldid=166342 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-305) 10move [[User:Aadenboy/Estrita|Estrita]] to the draft list
> 1761668764 581834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Underflow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166839&oldid=166834 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* Examples */
> 1761668829 337767 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:F calculus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166840&oldid=166675 5* 03Corbin 5* (+564) 10Combinators can't decide normal forms of SK (because they aren't decidable!)
< 1761668853 237683 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761670379 893294 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166841&oldid=166823 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-73) 10Dango overhaul 2
< 1761670387 799186 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1761671955 997923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166842&oldid=166841 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+114) 10Added reference implementation
> 1761672241 683656 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166843&oldid=166754 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1580) 10
< 1761674057 707206 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761674871 110349 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:98d4:258f:6fc4:7456 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1761675043 305218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166844&oldid=164420 5* 03 5* (+183) 10/* Review request page somewhere? */ new section
> 1761675050 557255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166845&oldid=166755 5* 03Jay 5* (+106) 10
> 1761675091 374480 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PizzaScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166846&oldid=166845 5* 03Jay 5* (-43) 10
< 1761675216 100593 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
< 1761675218 383293 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761675304 101779 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
< 1761675349 350956 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761675349 895247 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761675529 899304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 commands :)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166847 5* 03 5* (+588) 10Created page with "'''3 commands :)''' is a cell-based language with 3 commands and 3 cells made by ~~~. It is designed to be as usable as possible with that limitation.  ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" | 1 || Increment cell 1 and put the user's input into cell 2. |- | 2 || Flip the sign 
> 1761676033 999091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 commands :)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166848&oldid=166847 5* 03 5* (+298) 10Commands & Categories
< 1761676421 361970 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1761676661 382755 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 commands :)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166849&oldid=166848 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+17) 102025
< 1761676982 99989 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
< 1761676997 51645 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs are cool
< 1761677000 302113 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1761677263 903331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166850&oldid=166835 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+176) 10/* A request */
< 1761677357 627518 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761677390 514168 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1761677444 71730 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166851&oldid=166850 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+205) 10/* A request */
> 1761677656 111368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/nil14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166852&oldid=164528 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+617) 10
> 1761678075 615254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166853&oldid=166677 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+361) 10/* encoding */ new section
> 1761678085 946800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166854&oldid=166853 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10/* encoding */
< 1761678651 281845 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761678651 309461 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761679504 516096 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
< 1761679879 387791 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
< 1761679902 500325 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1761680236 26193 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166855&oldid=166797 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+274) 10[[Dango]] is alive!!!
< 1761681375 493675 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761681613 419000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166856&oldid=166855 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+4) 10/* My languages */ exact date for Dango
> 1761681800 537238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166857&oldid=166808 5* 03Waffelz 5* (-4) 10
< 1761681875 560966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761681953 372373 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761683093 617240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761683361 54504 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:98d4:258f:6fc4:7456 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1761683631 512052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166858&oldid=166842 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-28) 10Dango is now fully up and running!
> 1761684962 406725 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166859&oldid=166746 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+46) 10
< 1761686048 848540 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs ski :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1761686828 406530 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761687984 548843 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1761687984 585287 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
> 1761688428 431355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166860&oldid=113907 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+766) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the  programming language on GitHub and supplemented the page category tag Implemented.
> 1761688562 943021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166861&oldid=166857 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+165) 10
> 1761688568 501992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFASM/Examples14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166862 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+13037) 10Created page with "[[BFASM]]  = About = This page contains BFASM examples whose compiled code is too large to include in the main page.  == FizzBuzz == === BFASM Code ===  set %x 1    
> 1761688728 164553 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166863&oldid=166860 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+239) 10Supplemented an alternative truth-machine implementation, as well as a perpetual 0101 printer.
< 1761690385 663448 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761690409 491726 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
< 1761690935 159199 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761693327 39382 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761700422 422371 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761700573 681494 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761701491 485007 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761703033 96919 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761703446 494176 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1761706025 569939 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1761706044 722012 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand
< 1761706538 897442 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761706810 518154 :myname!~myname@152.53.22.209 JOIN #esolangs * :myname
< 1761706820 576737 :sprocket!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1761706899 930586 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1761706958 74499 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706958 318971 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706958 848119 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706959 182523 :mynery!~myname@152.53.22.209 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706959 325391 :APic!~apic@apic.name QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706959 567623 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761706959 709988 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 NICK :sftp
< 1761706959 737925 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1761706972 131797 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1761707544 787439 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1761711628 900295 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1761712848 258579 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761716307 339026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166864&oldid=107062 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+163) 10/* you */
> 1761716445 909136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166865&oldid=166864 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+337) 10/* Challenge */
> 1761716564 848558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166866&oldid=166813 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+117) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples */
> 1761716660 304454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166867&oldid=166866 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+45) 10/* Description */
> 1761716913 432503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166868&oldid=166867 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+14) 10/* Description */
> 1761717163 741281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166869&oldid=166868 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Description */
< 1761717230 346060 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
> 1761717309 587793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166870&oldid=166869 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+113) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples */
< 1761717393 256403 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
> 1761719833 80248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Langer 5*  10New user account
> 1761720066 393336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166871&oldid=166816 5* 03Langer 5* (+229) 10introduced self
< 1761720291 496541 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761720410 454809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:AsciiDots14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166872&oldid=150338 5* 03Langer 5* (+173) 10comment
> 1761722007 810281 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166873&oldid=166870 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* (Surprisingly enough) a short list of examples */
< 1761722345 123002 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761724411 748902 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761727564 687082 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761728375 693665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166874&oldid=166856 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+29) 10status update
< 1761729846 328393 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761730849 464493 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1761732359 221289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166875&oldid=166874 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+524) 10why
> 1761732619 162638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:E++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166876 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
> 1761732646 82853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:E++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166877&oldid=166876 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+81) 10/* Who made this? */ new section
> 1761732659 544031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:E++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166878&oldid=166877 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+92) 10/* Who made this? */
> 1761732813 504672 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Dango Language Logo.png10]]": L
< 1761735361 226331 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761737935 987010 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1761737938 509180 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761738019 303104 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1761738114 276591 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File talk:Dango Language Logo.png14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166880 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+140) 10Created page with "isn't that TurboWarp's thing without eyes...? ~~~~"
> 1761738775 73134 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07( )14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166881&oldid=145379 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-120) 10/* examples */
< 1761739672 123501 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1761739912 774496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File talk:Dango Language Logo.png14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166882&oldid=166880 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+395) 10
< 1761743164 547170 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761743363 266882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166883&oldid=166858 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+786) 10Fixed to match the actual implementation + preview of the new feature
> 1761744324 276727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166884&oldid=166719 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10/* ppl i like and dont like */
< 1761744374 62388 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761750010 255845 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761751777 625492 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761752704 894998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gora14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166885&oldid=166814 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-6) 10/* Syntax */
> 1761755218 44027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Orca14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166886&oldid=91417 5* 03Neauoire 5* (-2) 10/* External resources */
> 1761755313 288449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Orca14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166887&oldid=166886 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+169) 10/* Sample programs */
> 1761755375 789607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Orca14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166888&oldid=166887 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+69) 10/* FizzBuzz */
> 1761755562 152641 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166889&oldid=134322 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+756) 10Added link to reference implementation
> 1761755613 417509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166890&oldid=166889 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+390) 10/* Examples */
> 1761755795 331393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166891&oldid=166890 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+1568) 10/* Examples */
> 1761755825 227854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166892&oldid=166891 5* 03Neauoire 5* (-713) 10
> 1761755878 529548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Orca14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166893&oldid=166888 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+7) 10/* External resources */
> 1761755940 671975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166894&oldid=166892 5* 03Neauoire 5* (+73) 10
> 1761755979 24622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166895&oldid=166894 5* 03Neauoire 5* (-4) 10/* Factorial */
< 1761757818 108484 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] vista_user
< 1761757827 92288 :vista_user!~vista_use@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~vista_use :user/DOS-User:11249
> 1761758879 720706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166896&oldid=166854 5* 03 5* (+204) 10
> 1761758893 126710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166897&oldid=166896 5* 03 5* (+1) 10
> 1761758978 186821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166898&oldid=166851 5* 03 5* (+162) 10
< 1761759009 660891 :vista_user!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 NICK :win_recall
> 1761759103 838258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dango14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166899&oldid=166883 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+25) 10I thought it was already here
< 1761759675 112636 :win_recall!~vista_use@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761761073 938539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166900&oldid=163878 5* 03Gapples2 5* (+4009) 10tc proof, may be a little confusing but i've already spent too much time writing and revising it and i just need to publish it
> 1761762444 938866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166901 5* 03 5* (+983) 10Created page with "'''''' ''(pronounced '''Vesta''')'' is a tree-based esolang made by ~~~.  Before a  program has been run, the tree has one node, 0:0. The pointer starts at 0:0. Any point on the tree is defined as [generation]:[ordinal]. For example, say that there is a tree defined as such:        @ 
> 1761763830 814059 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ilo nanpa sitelen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166902&oldid=149447 5* 03EvyLah 5* (-379) 10Replaced content with "abandoned as of 2025/10/29"
> 1761763925 626821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166903&oldid=166897 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+540) 10/* encoding */ asking for further clarificaiton
< 1761764029 269877 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761764426 940866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166904&oldid=166628 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+149) 10add interpreter, assuming little-endian ordering
> 1761764459 983694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166905&oldid=166838 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+14) 10/* interpreters */ list [[Crypten]]
> 1761764548 569604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CharmTheDev 5*  10New user account
< 1761764598 458555 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761764652 48953 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166906&oldid=166871 5* 03CharmTheDev 5* (+172) 10/* Introductions */
> 1761764891 896005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166907&oldid=135051 5* 03CharmTheDev 5* (+57) 10
> 1761764946 819561 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166908&oldid=166907 5* 03CharmTheDev 5* (+0) 10
> 1761766815 906335 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Uxntal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166909&oldid=166895 5* 03Neauoire 5* (-49) 10/* Fizzbuzz */
> 1761767097 46539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fat pointer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166910&oldid=166657 5* 03Corbin 5* (+192) 10Also called "big pointers" by e.g. Alan Kay.
> 1761768936 900937 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03As 5*  10New user account
> 1761768960 237133 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Object-oriented paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166911&oldid=72733 5* 03Corbin 5* (+3080) 10Rewrite. I should be capitalizing The Network, since it's a particular idealized setup that just happens to line up nicely with actual physical networks, but many folks are hostile towards the reality of The Network, so I won't.
> 1761769765 266295 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166912&oldid=166906 5* 03As 5* (+191) 10
> 1761769787 755836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Object-oriented paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166913&oldid=166911 5* 03Corbin 5* (+589) 10/* History */ Add a paragraph on the liballocs/Smalltix way of doing things. Not adding a link to Vixen yet.
> 1761769940 638060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:As14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166914 5* 03As 5* (+91) 10Created page with "By the way, my nickname is in honor of arsenic. I don't know what else to say about myself."
> 1761770222 495037 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166915&oldid=117893 5* 03Corbin 5* (-62) 10Fix categories; Baba's a CA, actually. There's no encapsulation, but there are cells and updates are done globally by discrete iteration of a fixed ruleset. Also do some grammar and bluelinks.
> 1761770416 956354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166916&oldid=158564 5* 03Corbin 5* (+10) 10Fix grammar in first sentence. Parentheses are acceptable but the house style is increasingly to just list off the synonyms without hesitation or reservations. I don't think there will be any question about Conway's association with GoL.
> 1761770577 315712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Horton Conway14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166917&oldid=71277 5* 03Corbin 5* (+0) 10If y'all really insist on using "was" then I'm going to re-conjugate the auxiliary verbs too. It is so silly to do this for those who are no longer able to do mathematics; confront the actual situation rather than asking existence to vary with spacetime.
> 1761770983 530473 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vixen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166918&oldid=166586 5* 03Corbin 5* (+338) 10Link to every influence. Not listed yet: NixOS, sixos, etc.
< 1761771543 743439 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761772365 159879 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761773906 429448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166919&oldid=166898 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+12) 10/* A request */
> 1761773933 523709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ractangle14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166920&oldid=166919 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+160) 10/* A request */  hujiamus blyat
< 1761776520 155104 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1761776690 161025 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:31e7:acd8:5a5b:1418 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761777086 934162 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761777361 553698 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761777532 609872 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761777757 556683 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761777994 431074 :sprocket!~sprock@user/sprock NICK :sprock
< 1761779137 460429 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761784224 417774 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1761784325 400364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1761784479 421597 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761784597 605036 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761784597 635223 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761784597 922136 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1761784598 369596 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 NICK :slavfox
< 1761784610 535102 :perlbot_!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot NICK :perlbot
< 1761784933 812633 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
> 1761788387 595734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166921&oldid=166915 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+247) 10this page is long overdue for a rewritereplacing it with an incomplete draft
< 1761788443 674489 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1761789943 900236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category:C++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166922&oldid=166718 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+115) 10I think I got it now
> 1761789988 246170 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166923&oldid=125167 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+17) 10To the c++ category!
> 1761790273 398621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166924&oldid=166904 5* 03Somefan 5* (-8) 10fixd url
> 1761790540 576234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C+++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166925&oldid=105304 5* 03SuperSMG5 5* (+149) 10To the c++ category and also its not printf its cout
> 1761790764 568782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:C++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166926 5* 03Corbin 5* (+556) 10I get it, but it wasn't discussed AFAICT.
> 1761791625 841449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166927&oldid=166716 5* 03Corbin 5* (+823) 10/* Language families */ "Family" here means "dependent product."
> 1761792271 831238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166928&oldid=166927 5* 03Ais523 5* (+309) 10/* Language families */ [[:Category:Metalanguages]] already exists and (while probably not quite the same) this is very close
< 1761794259 628368 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is there a name for a formal grammar that once any token is read its meaning cannot change and you cannot look ahead, but the meaning is allowed to depend on what has been read before, and you are not allowed to look ahead to determine whether or not an optional field is present?
> 1761794311 729892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A=ab=bc=cd=d!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166929&oldid=166343 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+28) 10[[Category:Meta-languages]]
< 1761794456 80348 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have any test cases for Atmel AVR emulation?
< 1761794542 642150 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: so lookahead restrictions only really apply to transducers rather than grammars
< 1761794576 833225 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can effectively encode "tokens of lookahead" into the grammar rules instead of doing them in the automaton (it's just that doing them in the automaton is easier)
< 1761794634 165248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is easier to think about if you think of grammars being compiled into a state machine (not necessarily finite-state, they could have counters or stacks or the like in addition to the finite-state engine that controls them)
< 1761794687 272700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead of having a separate variable for lookahead tokens, you can encode the lookahead tokens into the finite-state engine by multiplying each state by an appropriate number of copies of it (one for each possible lookahead that could exist)
< 1761794711 477627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this means that lookahead isn't really defined as a concept when you're talking about grammars in the abstract
< 1761794742 256814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :however, you can define it rigorously in terms of transducers, i.e. grammars that have outputs (by saying that they have to produce a particular token of output before a particular token of input is read)
< 1761794849 845086 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, the concept that you're trying to express is very similar to LL(1), which has to choose which branch to take using only a single token of information
< 1761794902 497568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and gets around the lookahead problem by requiring the grammar to be able to output which grammar rule it's in as soon as the first token of input that uses that rule is read
< 1761794914 753127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* requiring the parser to be able to output
< 1761795630 811641 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, that makes sense it applies to transducers rather than grammars; sorry I made a mistake at first
< 1761795764 485785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LL(1) is a bit more restrictive than what you asked for, because LL(1) requires you to be able to write a pushdown automaton with those lookahead properties, whereas you didn't restrict it to a particular parsing automaton
< 1761795768 385318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but in practice I expect that won't matter much
< 1761796855 506979 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761796871 518513 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761796950 510204 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1761797502 897682 :Hoolooboo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1761797551 310702 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
< 1761797823 613642 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761797863 504110 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761797961 590493 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1761798786 725810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnCompetition14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166930&oldid=166873 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+98) 10/* One token per line */
< 1761798854 120771 :pool2!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761802767 634118 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought that a operating system and computer design can have some key combination (possibly [Control]+[System]+[Escape] or something like that; might also use (instead or as well) some switch on the computer itself, for additional security) to display a screen to list the processes and capabilities, and can be used to suspend, resume, and terminate processes, as well as to revoke capabilities and do low-level debugging functions.
< 1761802822 789577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a bit like Windows' ctrl-alt-delete, except more powerful
< 1761802871 577124 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but yes, OSes ilke to use key combinations for that sort of thing that do something special at the hardware level in order to prevent them being blocked in software
< 1761802886 228054 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I think Windows picked ctrl-alt-delete because it's a hardware reboot code and so the hardware special-cases it)
> 1761803182 803314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PoptartPlungerBoi/99BottleChallenge14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166931 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+158) 10Created page with "sadly that is not currently possible lol --~~~~"
< 1761803217 102514 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although on Windows the task manager is itself a process, and USB can cause problems (I would design the computer with a dedicated keyboard port (and the mouse is connected to the keyboard), and without USB). (Linux has SysRq which is more limited in some ways and does more in some ways; I would intend it would be capable of many of the things listed there which would be applicable.)
< 1761803292 147100 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Also, I might have all processes suspended while this special screen is displayed, so that they cannot affect the video memory, read the keyboard, take up all of the CPU time, do something which is overheating the computer, etc, while you are using the special screen to manage them.)
> 1761803356 782853 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166932&oldid=139128 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+8) 10/* syntax */
< 1761803371 835363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a pause-everything command is both useful, and potentially problematic in some cases
< 1761803414 371931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the classic example is writing to a CD, which apparently can't be paused without a certain amount of advanced notice due to the way that CD-writing software works (if you try you end up permanently damaging the CD)
> 1761803421 156506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166933&oldid=166932 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-20) 10/* examples */
< 1761803470 174152 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, on Linux ctrl-alt-F1 (which switches to a text-based terminal that's separate from the graphical environment) appears to pause at least some processes until you finish the login process (I can tell this because it usually causes music to stop playing)
< 1761803507 425534 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have observed that too
< 1761803727 544399 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, I know it can be potentially problematic in some cases, but you would avoid using it in such cases (unless you are deliberately trying to prevent such things from working; or, hopefully you have another blank CD if that happens)
< 1761810512 356800 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"secure attention key"
< 1761811018 482363 :pool2!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761811130 640884 :pool8!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761811465 846549 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761811973 237987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PythOwO14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166934&oldid=166418 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-119) 10pythOwO is branded with lowercase in the GitHub repository
< 1761811977 317600 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761812744 74600 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I thought that part about cd writing only applies to old CD burner hardware, modern one can be paused without damage because the hardware is smart enough to turn off the laser, though I think you might lose some capacity on the disk when you pause and continue
< 1761812766 435674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was wondering if some drives could be preloaded with enough information to safely stop when the software stuttered
< 1761812774 418408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I haven't used a CD burner in ages
< 1761812787 84671 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: this is sort of like how current sound hardware will keep playing the same sound on repeat if the operating system hangs
< 1761812800 415987 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most sound cards nowadays work by using a queue that software can top up with samples, if the software stops doing that it'll continue to play until the samples run out, and then stop
< 1761812810 983074 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, I never actually tried to deliberately pause a CD burner while burning, nor accidentally ran into that
< 1761812813 604573 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…or repeat, I guess
< 1761812830 455317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I haven't got that wrong with a CD burner either, just knew I had to take the precaution
< 1761814301 220957 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1761815177 738657 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I imagine that hitting the right place to continue writing would be rather hard.
< 1761815241 910906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :certainly harder than following the track and operating at the correct frequency, relying on momentum to keep even physical spacing
< 1761816540 717144 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761816684 212419 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :BURN-Proof™
< 1761816696 569908 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(BURN being short for "buffer underrun".)
< 1761816738 116173 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"A number of manufacturers have developed proprietary technologies to prevent buffer underruns, including Sanyo (BURN-Proof),[5] Asus (FlextraLink),[6] Sony (Power Burn) and Yamaha (SafeBurn)."
< 1761816749 732785 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Didn't know there were that many of them.
< 1761817316 975873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"underrun" is an interesting choice of nouned verb to use for that
< 1761817345 868439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing past the end of a buffer is normally called a buffer overflow, right?
< 1761817362 178324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but this, in effect, reading past the push end of a queue
< 1761817377 88176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is somehow like an overflow, and like the opposite of an overflow, at the same time
< 1761817452 106130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just realised I don't have a consistent mental model of which direction queues and stacks go in, I can imagine queues with their push end at either the left or the right, likewise stacks (actually there are three reasonable orientations for a stack – push end at the left, right and top – which makes it ironic that most processors have it at the bottom)
< 1761817723 896359 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe they call that an underrun in audio circles as well.
> 1761817790 220095 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:E++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166935&oldid=166878 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+176) 10/* Who made this? */
< 1761818232 985783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, while browsing Wikipedia, I came across the solution for the "one program verifies, e.g., JIT output made by another program and maps it as executable in the original program" – you just have a shared memory map that's read-execute for the program that generated the data and read-write for the program that verifies it
< 1761818261 795595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then the verifier can write the verified machine code into the original process's address space for it to execute
< 1761818287 456297 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this does seem to be problematic in a few ways (needing a copy, preventing unrelated processes accessing the memory map) but I think those problems are minor or solvable
< 1761818303 905492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is referring to a question I had in here a while ago, I meant to say that in the first line but forgot)
< 1761818416 432345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I just need to figure out what the rules for doing cross-modifying code safely are
< 1761818544 136038 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a quick web search impliies that on x86-64, the receiving thread needs to do an acquire-read that proves that the new code is safely accessible in memory, then do a serializing instruction (SERIALIZE, or if that isn't available, CPUID)
< 1761818550 619723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding serialize
< 1761818553 985902 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no such instruction: `serialize'
< 1761818557 58598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`as-encoding serialise
< 1761818558 546935 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: no such instruction: `serialise'
< 1761818563 994964 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :too new for this assembler, it seems
< 1761818584 775649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course on x86-64 an acquire-read is just a normal read
< 1761818715 136593 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lovely "operation" pseudocode for that instruction in the Intel manual.
< 1761818719 375987 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait_On_Fetch_And_Execution_Of_Next_Instruction_Until(preceding_instructions_complete_and_preceding_stores_globally_visible);
< 1761818753 732443 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Just take an English description and put some underlines, parentheses and semicolon in there.
< 1761818759 317803 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1761818849 585649 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another thing I learned recently is that LFENCE has been repurposed as an instruction-ordering fence (i.e. instructions can't be reordered around it, but memory accesses still can be)
< 1761818867 159786 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intel and AMD are both using it for Spectre mitigation
< 1761818912 544364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the really interesting thing is that on AMD, there's an MSR that changes LFENCE to act as an instruction-ordering fence rather than load-ordering fence (which x86-64 does naturally) and it was *not* a microcode update, it already existed on the old AMD processors and was simply just undocumented
< 1761818955 438432 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the leading theory is that it was a contingency plan in case Intel ever changed LFENCE to be a stronger barrier)
< 1761819034 71444 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: some of those burns sound vaguely familiar
< 1761819059 955199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that it's possible that a microcode update changed the semantics of the fence, and the purpose of the MSR was actually "just make LFENCE do something microcode-defined" – that also seems very plausible to me
> 1761820455 358034 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphacode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166936&oldid=166282 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+136) 10/* Quine */
> 1761820751 560550 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166937&oldid=166281 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+209) 10added "my esolangs"
< 1761822153 91290 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :were there ever AMD processors where MSRs were actually hardware registers and not entirely abstracted by microcode?
< 1761822249 479098 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the JIT cross-modifying-code problem gets much harder if your application code is itself multithreaded and has access to function pointers.  how do you know if a read of a function pointer was (a) a data race (b) seeing a new function too early and before the instructions are safely accessible?
< 1761822296 354884 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can do a broadcast invalidate before making the new function available to _any_ thread, but ew
< 1761822513 622782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see – acquire-release barriers aren't enough to allow the thread that first runs the cross-modifying code to make its function pointers visible to other threads, as those would need to do a CPUID after their acquire
< 1761822536 196608 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's the only problem which wouldn't be fixed by standard measures for preventing race conditions, though
< 1761822617 271246 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1761822721 478005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1761823504 462479 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1761823825 345792 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1761823875 291207 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1761823875 341901 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
< 1761827080 916647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1761833567 489621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166938&oldid=166875 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+718) 10
< 1761833798 960359 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1761835450 314713 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Golficator14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166939 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+227) 10Created page with "programs that do not halt, are definitely not useless([[Truth machine]] and [[Looping counter]] for example). --~~~~"
< 1761835728 725469 :pool8!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat
< 1761835747 707303 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761840307 483679 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761840307 568981 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761841073 605816 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1761844119 279690 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761844210 496294 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761845130 813361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Vesta14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166940 5* 03 5* (+17) 10Redirected page to [[]]
> 1761845487 953819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166941&oldid=166901 5* 03 5* (+407) 10Added a few more commands
> 1761845512 75183 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166942&oldid=166941 5* 03 5* (+0) 10
< 1761845518 567096 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 JOIN #esolangs * :pr1sm
> 1761848166 522454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Collabi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166943&oldid=151260 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+680) 10Ownership moved (yes, this is official.), new command added and 2 new alternations of the truth machine program.
> 1761848212 492983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166944&oldid=166937 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+74) 10Little note.
> 1761848254 872143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166945&oldid=166944 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+68) 10/* I contributed to these */
> 1761848358 683849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166946 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+148) 10Created page with "what is in the node  makes? --~~~~"
> 1761848908 279727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist/personal talk page14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166947 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+359) 10Created page with "Welcome to my "Personal Talk Page". I basically talk about stuff here, but please don't edit this. I have this so I don't have to have a multillion[https://googology.fandom.com/wiki/Multillion That's 10^(310^(310^(310^42))+3).] su
> 1761849038 398637 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166948&oldid=166945 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+129) 10
> 1761849241 718826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166949&oldid=164553 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+1) 10/* The thing */  added a space.
< 1761849836 212838 :pr1sm!~pr1sm@24.91.163.31 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761850624 521644 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761851295 119977 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03HeckYeah100 5*  10New user account
< 1761851519 615992 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1761851938 657850 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761852723 70740 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1761853564 622062 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761853732 158434 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1761855159 828996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166950 5* 03H33T33 5* (+1516) 10Created page with "{{WIP}} Self++ (or S++) is a language that builds on top of [[Self]], [[Self 2]], and [[Self but with loops]]. Self++ follows the same ideas as the other Selfs, except it's actually somewhat practical.  =How it works= ==Keywords== ===self=== The self keyword 
> 1761855182 697496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166951&oldid=166714 5* 03H33T33 5* (+13) 10
> 1761855270 124408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166952&oldid=163902 5* 03H33T33 5* (+51) 10
> 1761855293 291682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166953&oldid=166952 5* 03H33T33 5* (-8) 10
> 1761855471 593695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166954&oldid=166953 5* 03H33T33 5* (+0) 10
> 1761855549 342826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166955&oldid=166954 5* 03H33T33 5* (+8) 10
< 1761855724 860543 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1761855746 690434 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
> 1761855837 249731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166956&oldid=166951 5* 03H33T33 5* (-77) 10
< 1761857261 316835 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, but consider that CD readers already have magical electronics in them just to follow tracks on the CD correctly, and have been there for many years before the better commercial CD writers arrived, by which point all sorts of complex electronics got cheaper; and also that ancient floppy drives can follow tracks on a floppy disk, despite that that sounds basically impossible because the floppy 
< 1761857267 324630 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can flex and gripping the center doesn't look too accurate
< 1761857287 451447 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so given that those magics are possible, I wouldn't be surprised if continuing to write the same track on a CD were possible too
> 1761857978 221252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166957&oldid=166949 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+1) 10editing the rules (not cheating) so edits dont get spammy
> 1761857996 119845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166958&oldid=166957 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+10) 10
< 1761860778 601027 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761861506 508864 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat
< 1761861525 986999 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761863190 563574 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761864120 466204 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761864141 602688 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
> 1761864686 654099 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166959&oldid=166950 5* 03H33T33 5* (+19) 10
< 1761866907 63453 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:5978:a504:f2fd:26f QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761867723 260646 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761867744 634609 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761869302 621011 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761869375 582320 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761871806 22823 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1761878037 482767 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761881062 810574 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166960&oldid=166955 5* 03H33T33 5* (+139) 10
> 1761881075 725023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Topple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166961&oldid=166960 5* 03H33T33 5* (+28) 10
< 1761884353 574361 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761884576 180955 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761886715 247959 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1761887947 590892 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761888222 900102 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in
< 1761888557 316083 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1761889350 615032 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761889473 620642 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761889825 564655 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1761889872 239872 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761890374 929265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166962&oldid=166942 5* 03Ais523 5* (-27) 10do not hide the User: on links to userspace
< 1761891535 424834 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761891589 317087 :j4cbo!sid186930@id-186930.helmsley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs j4cbo :j4cbo
< 1761893078 860705 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1761893762 678421 :chiselfuse!~chiselfus@user/chiselfuse JOIN #esolangs chiselfuse :chiselfuse
< 1761896597 193330 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761896891 906526 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1761896911 443852 :Everything!~Everythin@static.208.206.21.65.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi all. Is there esoteric OSes, aking to languages?
< 1761897305 29394 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d90d:664f:1825:e058 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761897410 504946 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN #esolangs * :Stefan Ljungstrand
> 1761897884 936340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Peter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166963&oldid=115245 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+198) 10
> 1761898074 662376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Orby14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166964&oldid=152760 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+342) 10
< 1761899985 448216 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:d90d:664f:1825:e058 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1761901530 177439 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Everything: yes, IOCCC 2004/gavin
< 1761903819 726766 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761903919 130160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166965 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+733) 10Created page with "==Here's some ideas!== Template: [[brainf**k]] interpreter so this is turing complete (technically cheating though)  File: literally reads from a file on your computer.  Category: loops forever  esolangs.org returns the contents of an Esola
> 1761903944 481691 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/wiki/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166966&oldid=166965 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+129) 10/* Here's some ideas! */
> 1761904014 717834 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166967&oldid=166958 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+1) 10
> 1761904045 905057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166968&oldid=166967 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+13) 10
> 1761904152 910920 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166969&oldid=159593 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+249) 10/* C collection is an eso - we might make an esolang */ new section
< 1761904365 377194 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1761904753 839266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166970 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+579) 10Created page with "Welcome to You make the esolang, an esolang that anyone can edit! It is by [[User:Esolangist]] and is inspired by [[Place]]. ==Rules!== Do not edit more than 100 letters. You can sign your name on a section to "own" it, meaning other people cannot delete 
> 1761904814 742640 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166971&oldid=166970 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+96) 10
> 1761904897 817997 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166972&oldid=166948 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+61) 10/* 2025 */
< 1761906318 166680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1761908320 958893 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03CapinolDev 5*  10New user account
> 1761908538 375060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166973&oldid=166912 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+144) 10
> 1761909000 473989 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03CapinolDev 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Formin-logo.png10]]": Logo for the Formin language
> 1761909614 606246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Formin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=166975 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+3057) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Formin |author=[[User:CapinolDev]] |year=[[:Category:2025|2025]] |files=.fmn |paradigm=Flow-based, imperative |influenced-by=Assembly, shell scripting |influenced= |implementations=Fortran interpreter |typing=Dynamic |website=https://github.co
> 1761909779 188285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Formin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166976&oldid=166975 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+37) 10
> 1761911551 570179 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Formin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166977&oldid=166976 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+35) 10
< 1761912000 561613 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1761912024 290998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Formin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166978&oldid=166977 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+225) 10
> 1761912231 280738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166979&oldid=166750 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (+52) 10
> 1761912259 374868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166980&oldid=164230 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1063) 10
> 1761912340 599350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166981&oldid=166938 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+200) 10
> 1761912456 846881 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166982&oldid=166979 5* 03CapinolDev 5* (-4) 10Reformated formin desc
> 1761912735 881576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166983&oldid=166982 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+12) 10/* D */  Add [[Dango]] my beloved creation
< 1761912888 872795 :pool3!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan NICK :pool
< 1761913818 444444 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :( Is there an OS that isn't esoteric? Maybe just the pedagogical ones. )
> 1761913956 621770 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166984&oldid=166971 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-57) 10
> 1761914356 640026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166985&oldid=166137 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-52) 10
< 1761914587 921472 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761914719 987174 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
> 1761915923 133630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166986&oldid=166684 5* 03None1 5* (+311) 10/* SLet */  SLet support has been added!
> 1761916044 754256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interpret Esolangs Online14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166987&oldid=148785 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10/* Introduction */
> 1761916062 769068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Interpret Esolangs Online14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166988&oldid=166987 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* Introduction */
< 1761917960 511847 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761917968 803897 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761918250 827909 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166989&oldid=166981 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+339) 106-python-c++ polyglot hello world
< 1761920986 562519 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1761921038 584531 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761921848 99683 :win_recall!~win_recal@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] win_recall
< 1761921855 93709 :win_recall!~win_recal@72.red-88-1-117.dynamicip.rima-tde.net CHGHOST ~win_recal :user/DOS-User:11249
< 1761922083 463907 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1761923326 728825 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761924154 939467 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166990&oldid=166830 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+632) 10
< 1761924333 101873 :win_recall!~win_recal@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1761924452 791520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166991&oldid=166962 5* 03 5* (+157) 10
> 1761924568 724673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166992&oldid=166991 5* 03 5* (+0) 10
> 1761924911 125787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166993&oldid=166984 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+25) 10/* Contributors* */
> 1761925244 929759 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166994&oldid=166968 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+10) 10
< 1761925401 922668 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1761925482 135923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166995&oldid=166903 5* 03 5* (+190) 10
< 1761925515 690603 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
> 1761925769 690461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166996&oldid=166995 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+421) 10reply
> 1761925806 903518 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166997&oldid=166993 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+393) 10Note: I can edit as much as i want for this esolang.
> 1761925940 172004 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Crypten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166998&oldid=166996 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+368) 10p.s.
> 1761926267 669621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=166999&oldid=166580 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+245) 10/* Joke/Silly Ideas */
> 1761927175 93161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167000&oldid=152421 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+94) 10
> 1761927483 769578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167001&oldid=166946 5* 03 5* (+160) 10
> 1761927625 457546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167002&oldid=166972 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+787) 10Added my featured esolang
> 1761927657 977413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167003&oldid=167002 5* 03Esolangist 5* (-1) 10AAAAARGH I HAD TO DELETE A LETTER
> 1761927714 161317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167004&oldid=167000 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (-94) 10Blanked the page
< 1761927865 479186 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761928429 202351 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1761928676 626030 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167005&oldid=166994 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+12) 10
> 1761928765 750687 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167006&oldid=166969 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+94) 10/* C collection is an eso - we might make an esolang */
> 1761928787 422452 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167007&oldid=167006 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+113) 10/* C collection is an eso - we might make an esolang */
< 1761928941 312274 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1761928972 629225 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1761928998 474623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167008&oldid=167003 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+36) 10
< 1761929003 972592 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761929025 643448 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761929276 821652 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1761930818 351542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Place14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167009&oldid=167005 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+0) 10
< 1761930940 181996 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1761931303 259060 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1761931533 913666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Andrew Code14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167010 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+215) 10Created page with "==Andrew code is just morse code-flavoured binary== It's just binary corresponding to its place in the alphabet + 3 symbols ~~~~"
< 1761932612 19314 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761932631 601161 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
> 1761933026 569375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist/Sandbox14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167011 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+178) 10Created page with "Welcome! ==enciphering message== Hello, world! ellHo, world! ellHo,rwo ld! el!Ho,rwo ldl ==wikitest== {{Stub}} {{Wrongtitle|title=[[File:Nuigurumiato logo.jpg|100px|frameless]]}}"
> 1761933164 97651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167012&oldid=166997 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+29) 10Quick formatting change
< 1761933340 545693 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night 😴
< 1761934812 583607 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761936105 335596 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761936220 343807 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761936240 620751 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761936394 261429 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :About esoteric operating systems, I suppose that you could figure out how it is defined like with esoteric programming languages would be, although sometimes you would have the programming language specific for that operating system. Also, there is some stuff in esolang wiki relating to operating systems.
> 1761936690 109389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167013&oldid=167001 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+208) 10
< 1761936745 523212 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1761936953 537719 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1761936998 829175 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll need an new password tomorrow, spooky or otherwise
> 1761937559 425959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Function-level programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167014 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2004) 10Stub a concept. Yes, the category theory's present in Backus 1981; see p3-4.
> 1761938311 784807 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07John Backus14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167015 5* 03Corbin 5* (+451) 10Stub for a foundational author.
> 1761939125 111419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Leo21 5*  10New user account
> 1761939421 324915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167016&oldid=166973 5* 03Leo21 5* (+183) 10/* Introductions */
< 1761939504 99368 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Esolangist
< 1761939741 90319 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1761939775 100018 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Esolangist
< 1761940168 335430 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1761940376 601405 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait is anyone even online
< 1761940408 947316 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but just this one night of the year, most of them are undead, even though this channel usually has more constructs
< 1761940434 15593 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1761940897 677331 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :literally half of the channel is offline
< 1761940915 32851 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And half of that is actually active
< 1761941179 334869 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esolangist: What's up? You can usually get more activity with your actual question than a generic ping.
> 1761941184 748488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167017&oldid=166928 5* 03Corbin 5* (+374) 10/* Function-level programming */ Give an update.
> 1761941256 68582 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kernel14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167018&oldid=91625 5* 03Corbin 5* (+33) 10Add functional-paradigm category.
> 1761941314 479057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167019&oldid=166034 5* 03Corbin 5* (+55) 10Bluelinks.
> 1761941350 683186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Functional paradigm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167020&oldid=166334 5* 03Corbin 5* (+8) 10Bluelink for Backus.
> 1761941719 45662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category theory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167021&oldid=160897 5* 03Corbin 5* (+64) 10Capitalization, related.
< 1761941792 648218 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION closes another tab group

> 1761941903 637523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esolangist alt 5*  10New user account
< 1761941978 870577 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^^ esolangist alt is my account, I created it because I edit on the account "esolangist" and I am using another device but I forgot the password so I made another for this device
> 1761942015 534694 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167022&oldid=167016 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+168) 10
< 1761942072 824577 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just gonna make a redirect page from "User:Esolangist alt" to "User:Esolangist"
> 1761942096 815405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist alt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167023 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+57) 10.
< 1761942108 415302 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :done
< 1761942170 953779 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait, NOW is there anyone online?
> 1761942188 739771 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist alt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167024&oldid=167023 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (-28) 10.
< 1761942236 119017 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esolangist: Sure.
< 1761942550 133725 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esolangist: I'm going to go get lunch. If you have questions about the wiki, just ask out loud and somebody will chat with you.
> 1761942741 510046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tromp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167025 5* 03Tromp 5* (+235) 10create brief profile
> 1761942889 401348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tromp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167026&oldid=167025 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+1) 10I fixed your references to look better
> 1761943033 999741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Esolinguist 5*  10New user account
< 1761943135 2241 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nobody is online?
< 1761943437 473506 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is anybody online
< 1761943481 909000 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Esolangist: Please stop creating alts. Also please don't edit other folks' user pages.
< 1761943502 157759 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1761943505 468528 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on
< 1761943511 120514 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1761943537 149304 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also "esolinguist" isn't mine. I don't even know who made that
< 1761943557 745624 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: esolinguist isn't mine. I don't know who made it
< 1761943587 718420 :Esolangist!~Esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1761944956 128114 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(nice suspiciously specific denial)
< 1761945134 764410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well it makes sense in context
< 1761945171 62031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if you ignore esolangs, see https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-31.html#lBc
< 1761945228 481331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :*sniff* https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/password -- how am I supposed to figure out which one we already used now ;-)
> 1761945458 383087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Esoteric Operating System/File System14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167027&oldid=109576 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+588) 10
< 1761945754 958125 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat
< 1761945774 664811 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761945867 611969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` cd ..; hg log -p wisdom/password | paste
< 1761945875 662482 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.4461
< 1761945917 551069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password
< 1761945920 794706 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :password
< 1761945937 600990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ...lol, I thought you fixed that.
< 1761946021 334312 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :me?
< 1761946025 914512 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait
< 1761946044 949320 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was set today
< 1761946048 872959 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no 
< 1761946085 712286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, apparently I set that, and I thought I fixed it too
< 1761946086 503088 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oops
< 1761946107 414457 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well it's still 2025-10 so I can fix it still
< 1761946133 140798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-10-01.html#lE -- we discussed it but evidently didn't fix the mistake
< 1761946139 312331 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`learn The password of the month is consider us expert everything street.
< 1761946144 115122 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is consider us expert everything street.
< 1761946147 931589 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? password
< 1761946150 826046 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The password of the month is consider us expert everything street.
< 1761946154 546544 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll need a new one a few hours later
< 1761946344 560396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess this is enough for reference: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/passwords.txt
< 1761946377 787909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`du -sh paste
< 1761946379 39234 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :du: invalid option -- ' ' \ du: invalid option -- 'p' \ du: invalid -t argument 'e'
< 1761946381 510117 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I tried to generate the list at https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U , but my command is too slow and it times out too early. I could try to continue with a followup command and append
< 1761946388 165641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` du -sh paste
< 1761946389 370145 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :5.2M	paste
< 1761946471 583405 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` hg log --removed -r 12472:0 -T "{rev} {date(date,'%Y-%m-%dT%H')}\n" /hackenv/wisdom/password | (echo; while read r w; do echo -n "$r $w: "; hg cat -r $r /hackenv/wisdom/password; done) | tee -a /hackenv/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U
< 1761946497 64580 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that is continuing the list, so this should only take a few HackEso commands
< 1761946507 907550 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1761946520 496313 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` hg log --removed -r 12348:0 -T "{rev} {date(date,'%Y-%m-%dT%H')}\n" /hackenv/wisdom/password | (echo; while read r w; do echo -n "$r $w: "; hg cat -r $r /hackenv/wisdom/password; done) | tee -a /hackenv/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U
< 1761946557 80917 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1761946602 247987 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` hg log --removed -r 11764:0 -T "{rev} {date(date,'%Y-%m-%dT%H')}\n" /hackenv/wisdom/password | (echo; while read r w; do echo -n "$r $w: "; hg cat -r $r /hackenv/wisdom/password; done) | tee -a /hackenv/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U
< 1761946638 441680 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :No output.
< 1761946650 30249 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :``` hg log --removed -r 10898:0 -T "{rev} {date(date,'%Y-%m-%dT%H')}\n" /hackenv/wisdom/password | (echo; while read r w; do echo -n "$r $w: "; hg cat -r $r /hackenv/wisdom/password; done) | tee -a /hackenv/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U
< 1761946681 186643 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently I did learn instead of slashlearn in at least three earlier months
< 1761946683 822031 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​ \ 10898 2017-05-14T22: The password of the month is poochpoochpoochpoochpooch \ 10595 2017-04-09T23: The password of the month is bad \ 10373 2017-03-08T12: The password of the month is OSBDemoLap9W53! \ 10206 2017-02-04T12: The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10065 2017-01-01T00: The password of the month is AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ \ 9816 2016-12-02T03: The password of the month is lutefisk \ 9815 2016-12-02T03: The password of the month is ⛄ 
< 1761946755 54697 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/7ermk2UVHP4U this is all we have in the repository
< 1761947019 447430 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also I have a streak of six passwords one after another in there
< 1761947033 6851 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761947058 982805 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761949422 304088 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761949694 571925 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1761950636 615841 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1761950660 599744 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1761951035 526789 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in C printf, what's the original etymology of the format character "f"? "fixed", "fraction", "float"? 
< 1761951604 686173 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1761951680 642846 :lynndotpy609!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1761951856 285082 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:dc25:ce25:d6de:4df2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1761951941 889187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: "floating point" is plausible (but not float because it takes a double ;-) )
< 1761951962 887349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but unless K&R wrote about this I don't think that there's any way to know
< 1761952042 252319 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: now do %g (probably just the next letter after "f" but you can speculate that it's for, say, genuises ;-) )
< 1761952116 611189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: how do you like this terrible "source": https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/c/format-specifiers-in-c/#list-of-c-format-specifiers (you're not ready for %n)
< 1761952316 506757 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1761952453 37992 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was not ready for %n.
< 1761952562 289426 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1761952657 245660 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The C99 rationale sorta-explains %a, in the sense that the "more suggestive" options 'x' and 'h' were already taken, and an "optional `h` to indicate hexadecimal floating, as in `%he`, was deemed a less natural fit with the established scheme". It also lists the "possibilities other than `a`" (b j k m q r t v w y z), but does not specify why `a` was chosen.