< 1762044734 707547 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths < 1762045030 447745 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1762045068 172636 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Client Quit < 1762046052 347601 :june-o-lantern!sid553797@user/meow/jgardner JOIN #esolangs jgardner :Wryl < 1762046188 124440 :june-o-lantern!sid553797@user/meow/jgardner NICK :jgardner > 1762048144 340541 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07You make the esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167268&oldid=167128 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-38) 10Correct the title format. < 1762048357 581472 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762048491 403276 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan > 1762049839 664208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:6 trits, 243 trytes14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167269 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+117) 10created page ig < 1762052466 768339 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1762052702 999926 :op_4!~tslil@2a01:4f8:c0c:7952::1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1762052732 550068 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4 > 1762055845 969198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167270&oldid=166859 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+368) 10changed a few commands < 1762056282 111623 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere > 1762056526 540454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167271&oldid=167039 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+35) 10 > 1762056768 67552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167272&oldid=167271 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10/* esolangs */ < 1762057178 169483 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1762057204 410021 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167273&oldid=167203 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+260) 10 < 1762057506 510925 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1762057550 142176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hexagon says jump to line a if cell b is n and increment cell b by c if cell b equals d and output cell b is cell b equals e.14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167274&oldid=153447 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+42) 10 < 1762057869 33309 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi ais! < 1762059126 988666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Yayimhere < 1762059137 661697 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you? < 1762059163 995762 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tired, I usually am < 1762059178 712880 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762059209 46708 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* Yayimhere has no idea how to respond < 1762059306 640746 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan > 1762059317 578052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/Thoughts on burn14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167275 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2983) 10Created page with "Ok, first of all, I'd like to note, that I think the result most likely is somewhere ''else''. as in, a burn program generates a separate string of data from processing itself. this seems likely, as burn seems like a 2d Von Neumann cel > 1762059361 332973 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167276&oldid=167272 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+70) 10/* things about me */ < 1762059477 218132 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1762059567 439047 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood > 1762059986 531623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167277&oldid=167208 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-253) 10 > 1762060593 171560 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Salpynx14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167278&oldid=128655 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+322) 10 > 1762060676 816364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167279&oldid=167277 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+38) 10 < 1762060786 584004 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1762060940 890915 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167280&oldid=167279 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+19) 10 > 1762060975 923535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167281&oldid=167280 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-2) 10/* Programs */ < 1762061018 806407 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Client Quit > 1762061901 272139 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167282&oldid=167281 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+38) 10 > 1762062024 278633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167283&oldid=167282 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+85) 10 > 1762063469 260917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167284&oldid=167283 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+59) 10 > 1762063579 963552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2B14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167285 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+963) 10Created page with "'''B2B''' is an esolang created by [[User:yayimhere]], while trying to prove [[,(*+)]] [[turing complete]]. It is a specific restriction on a [[Cyclic tag]], in which it allows one unbounded conditional production, and an unbounded number of unconditionals, as wel < 1762063751 715167 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1762063999 756190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brugtiohell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167286&oldid=166757 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+19) 10 < 1762064034 83358 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1762064202 185708 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1762064381 863365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167287&oldid=167284 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+119) 10 > 1762064456 809894 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167288&oldid=167287 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+145) 10 > 1762064475 672353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167289&oldid=167288 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+29) 10 > 1762064895 697230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167290&oldid=167289 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+151) 10 < 1762065333 730908 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1762065527 617955 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167291&oldid=167290 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10 < 1762065543 131024 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi > 1762065592 733323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167292&oldid=167291 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+76) 10 < 1762065632 662049 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi APic! < 1762066241 100730 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1762066586 577666 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1762067215 326751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167293&oldid=167292 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-6) 10 > 1762067284 53965 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167294&oldid=167293 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10 > 1762067630 846485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167295&oldid=167294 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+118) 10 < 1762068686 101200 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere > 1762069181 931416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167296&oldid=167295 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+46) 10 > 1762069667 356449 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2B14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167297&oldid=167285 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10 > 1762069881 451498 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2B to ,(*+)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167298 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1219) 10Created page with "'''B2B to ,(*+)''' is a translation from [[B2B]] into ,(*+). this does currently not prove ,(*+) [[Turing complete]], as [[B2B]] has an unknown computational class, though it is most likely turing complete. == Numbers == for every 1, it must be written < < 1762069887 734560 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yaaaaay > 1762070100 956028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167299&oldid=167262 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+144) 10/* Truth machine */ Corrected truth machine > 1762070547 903067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167300&oldid=167299 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+238) 10/* BF to RSI0 */ Corrected loop example < 1762070941 467416 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1762070952 214758 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello tromp! < 1762071047 182318 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi < 1762071166 634317 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you? > 1762071690 269831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167301&oldid=167300 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-116) 10No beefydie :C < 1762072125 940407 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: do you perhaps want to look at Baulk again? < 1762072139 619441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm a bit busy at the moment < 1762072147 815291 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok > 1762072618 753751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167302&oldid=166553 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+29) 10/* syntax */ > 1762072666 103926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167303&oldid=167302 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* memory */ > 1762073028 767194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167304&oldid=167303 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+172) 10/* syntax */ > 1762073038 662330 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167305&oldid=167304 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* syntax */ > 1762073063 929475 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167306&oldid=167305 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* syntax */ > 1762073183 168999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167307&oldid=167306 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+20) 10/* syntax */ > 1762073202 800523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167308&oldid=167307 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-229) 10/* examples */ > 1762073359 901882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[070x8007005014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167309&oldid=167308 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+14) 10/* syntax */ > 1762073429 640685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167310&oldid=167301 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+24) 10/* BF to RSI0 */ Hunger notice < 1762073729 100737 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1762074444 392212 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167311&oldid=167310 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+7) 10/* Hunger */ Remove feature until I decide to add it back > 1762074534 511474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167312&oldid=167311 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+4) 10/* BF to RSI0 */ Fixed loop < 1762075571 538512 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1762076126 947526 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1762076435 447947 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762076448 589781 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1762076480 667125 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762077180 338928 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1762077441 787529 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167313&oldid=167312 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1) 10/* BF to RSI0 */ Fixed loop translation < 1762079660 100592 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist > 1762080084 195128 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074gn/14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167314&oldid=156401 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+681) 10 > 1762080789 543993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang made with AI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167315&oldid=167267 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+355) 10Esolangist alt > 1762080991 389133 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167316&oldid=167313 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+238) 10/* Base Specification */ Added nondeterministic multi-tool + sanity > 1762081930 890016 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.28443614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167317&oldid=164603 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+447) 10 > 1762081989 664236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.28443614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167318&oldid=167317 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-2) 10 > 1762082286 733548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167319&oldid=167195 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+63) 10Esolangist alt > 1762082572 155632 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.28443614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167320&oldid=167318 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+353) 10 < 1762083175 890003 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1762085582 198468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.28443614]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167321&oldid=167320 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+309) 10 > 1762089751 453760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167322&oldid=167248 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+462) 10Added my funny "Hello, world!" program to my collection > 1762091051 689489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Wuyugu 5* 10New user account > 1762092537 293091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* 10New user account < 1762094257 726282 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan > 1762095247 336408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167323&oldid=167322 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+443) 10 > 1762095596 363142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167324&oldid=167316 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+31) 10Correct a minor error > 1762095606 176362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167325&oldid=167183 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+176) 10 > 1762095618 40719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167326&oldid=167323 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+0) 10/* "Hello, world!" in RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0 */ Corrected > 1762095677 603119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gurling14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167327 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+2446) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Gurling |author=[[User:Skyraiderr5]] |year=2025 |majorimpl=Python |influenced=[[Python]]; [[Flug]] | }} {{WIP}} '''Gurling''' is an programming language with global variables and modular libraries. It is an interpreted language ==Language > 1762096006 849048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Gurling14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167328 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+356) 10Created page with "Welcome to the talk page! Please add suggestions to the end of the list Also add ~~~~ to the end of the suggestion, its a signature This is an example of a suggestion * Add a objects lib with support for other Python datatypes. > 1762096107 354337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gurling14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167329&oldid=167327 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+62) 10 > 1762096181 70122 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gurling14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167330&oldid=167329 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+4) 10 > 1762096552 982124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gurling14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167331&oldid=167330 5* 03Corbin 5* (+11) 10Fix up infobox proglang usage. `refimpl` is for the reference implementation; `majorimpl` is for well-known implementations in case of no/missing/defunct reference. `influenced` is for outgoing influences (when this language is in the past); `influence` is for incoming influences > 1762096699 846439 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Gurling14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167332&oldid=167328 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+382) 10 > 1762096774 759557 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Gurling14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167333&oldid=167332 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+69) 10 < 1762097843 945999 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762097958 637393 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan > 1762099231 430879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167334&oldid=166044 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1574) 10Infobox proglang; rewrite opening for context, history, clarity, and humor, as well as to remove some untruths and memes; references; grammar. The blockquote is so well-attested in the community that I feel uncomfortable giving it citations, but I've done so, going back to 1993; > 1762099524 410908 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Python14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167335&oldid=167334 5* 03Corbin 5* (-4) 10[[Self]] is currently a joke language, not the actual research language. Ironic, given that Self is quite esoteric and the joke language is so facile. > 1762099724 423186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pseudocode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167336&oldid=156046 5* 03Corbin 5* (+298) 10Quick simple explanation of a concept. Reuses a blanked page. Stop blanking pages, folks. Maybe take a day before creating a page to reflect on whether it's a good idea? < 1762099814 101713 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist > 1762100494 291081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gurling14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167337&oldid=167331 5* 03Skyraiderr5 5* (+135) 10Added documentation for a small lib < 1762100535 102389 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere > 1762100549 893648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07B2B to ,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167338&oldid=167298 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1219) 10Blanked the page > 1762101006 141945 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07013414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167339&oldid=167076 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-167) 10 > 1762101171 454962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167340&oldid=166114 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+313) 10 > 1762101225 657515 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167341&oldid=167296 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-603) 10 > 1762101312 210926 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167342&oldid=167341 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-68) 10 < 1762101347 749587 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1762101447 618496 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Could you explain your reasoning regarding the block request? < 1762101490 464696 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: unname has tried to edit the commands of my esolang quite a bit, so I'd like that they just arent able to do that < 1762101501 780337 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have *no* idea why but they just kept doing it < 1762101555 126156 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist < 1762101588 282802 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Write down the specification anywhere else. Write an interpreter. Put up a Web page that specifies it. < 1762101626 545200 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yes, but for me, its still annoying to uphold that page < 1762101640 284168 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(im not asking for a block on anything else, just one that specific page) < 1762101660 918961 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Well, by what standard are your edits the correct ones and their edits the incorrect ones? < 1762101682 298806 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Asking for a slight overreach is still asking for an overreach.) < 1762101784 646513 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: its my language, and as such, I know what is correct and what is not < 1762101825 285113 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I would not consider it an overreach, but maybe im wrong) < 1762102010 603099 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It would be completely unreasonable on a larger wiki. It could be a solution to an edit war, were one to occur. < 1762102034 327131 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1762102062 99027 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Quoting site policy, "Articles on languages you made yourself are encouraged, unlike for example Wikipedia. However, these may still be mercilessly edited by others. In most cases this is a good thing." < 1762102132 311677 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You agree to release your articles here to the public domain. If you want to describe a language and have it show up in search results, *and* not be edited by others here to be different from your description, then you need some *additional* documentation for your language hosted somewhere else. This is a very very weak version of the notability requirement; I'm saying that we need some external source by which to judge articles. < 1762102148 848405 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1762102236 70971 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If your language is still WIP and it's going to take you a while to finish, then moving it to be under your user namespace would be a reasonable compromise; the policy is that each user is entitled to their own user pages (and that's why the policy discourages editing each other's user pages!) < 1762102254 198911 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1762102258 20250 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1762102276 245999 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mostly do not have a place to put my external recourses < 1762102300 186478 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :atleast not one that is online and so accessable to others on the web < 1762102300 553913 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Lucky 10000: neocities.org < 1762102307 128614 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wut < 1762102344 134309 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1762102350 686136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167343&oldid=167340 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-313) 10 < 1762102355 141437 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But, again, at your age, you're not expected to be producing new languages. Certainly not producing dozens of languages/year. You're expected to be studying and learning. There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but you should be aware that experiments documented on the wiki are documented in the public domain. < 1762102361 101334 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist < 1762102368 764696 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k < 1762102371 260146 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks! < 1762102435 269870 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i assume "expected" does not mean "should not") < 1762102457 214174 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, no problem. I remember being your age and utterly delighted by Geocities, the site which inspired Neocities. It's a good first step. Be sure to read the terms of service; there *are* rules for using other peoples' sites. If you want fewer rules then you'll have to host it yourself, which might require you to be a legal adult first. < 1762102473 658744 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1762102484 61291 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should propably read up one rules more < 1762102494 697982 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I am not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what the rules are, including the rules of society. I think that you should do whatever you want! But I also often think that people should modify their desires.) < 1762102506 808630 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k < 1762102509 19520 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::]. < 1762102647 678979 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Client Quit < 1762102662 104491 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist < 1762103265 102188 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds > 1762103324 175092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07R + S14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167344&oldid=164736 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+66) 10 < 1762104030 35663 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1762104644 858896 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What is Python good for? < 1762104791 819291 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: What is Python good for? < 1762104792 329072 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: greece is going through bad times that is why my group is at the centre of the eu member states, but i promise to propose this plan. that is why and this is the custom with human rights. > 1762104827 79061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Python is excellent for a wide range of tasks due to its versatility and ease of use. It excels in web development, data science, machine learning, scripting, and automation. Its extensive libraries and beginner-friendly syntax make it ideal for rapid prototyping and development. Python's cross-platform compatibility and strong community support... > 1762104827 79666 PRIVMSG #esolangs :further enhance its appeal. < 1762104854 333768 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's pretty good. Could be pre-canned instead of RAG though. < 1762104856 100766 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist < 1762104929 799526 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname < 1762105121 107437 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere > 1762105370 50353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167345&oldid=167342 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+612) 10 > 1762105382 704107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167346&oldid=167345 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-76) 10 > 1762105461 439772 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Lalala14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167347&oldid=167075 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+50) 10/* syntax */ < 1762105609 640373 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is the last time im asking this(if ive asked it before, I have bad memory), but can anyone reccomend a good language to prove this tc(please not a cyclic tag system though, I tried): https://esolangs.org/wiki/,(*%2B) < 1762106013 314381 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's marked as unusable for programming and there's no reference interpreter. I don't know how the language is supposed to behave. < 1762106051 217691 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname < 1762106062 990074 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I put unusable for programming on most of my esolangs, for the reason they arent useful for very high level things, < 1762106073 203367 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, is BCT really that usable? < 1762106078 170497 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for example > 1762106115 305106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167348&oldid=164803 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+159) 10/* Name */ < 1762106124 79633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: note that I often do warn people for editing commands into other people's languages – the pages are meant to describe the language, and changing the page normally doesn't change the language in its creator's mind, so it's just makign the page inaccurate < 1762106191 591149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm willing to accept that, but in this particular case I genuinely couldn't tell what the original page is supposed to look like. I'm also unclear on whether there's other chats influencing the edits. < 1762106234 305160 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: to answer your second question, me and unname have never talked to each other before this < 1762106252 435687 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've tried to be fairly conservative in my own edits to joke languages. Many of them are poorly worded, but does improving the wording make the joke worse? Or better? < 1762106261 362274 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION can't do a good Invader Zim voice
< 1762106300 300513 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1762106308 730188 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* lol² < 1762106323 366046 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Okay. Then, for the future, the standard wiki convention is that you can revert their edits. It helps if you add to the notes for the revert to say *what they got wrong*. One wrong edit means one revert. < 1762106337 950598 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ok < 1762106362 298615 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :An **edit war** is when they revert your revert, or do something equivalent. At that point, take a step back to cool off and consider asking somebody with more experience to step in. < 1762106374 866800 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok < 1762106514 691583 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :BTW, in general, edit notes are good. You can look at regular editors like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ais523 or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/B_jonas to get a sense of how often they're used. Talk pages don't need it much (because you can just read the talk page) and on WP it's actually kind of rude! < 1762106535 506551 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WP? < 1762106536 918663 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And then there are some *freaks* like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Corbin ~) < 1762106563 243453 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :me? I usually don't make good edit comments < 1762106601 693322 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WP is Wikipedia. Usually English Wikipedia, but also Wikipedia in general. English WP's rules aren't binding but they are very good conventions that scale up to thousands of editors and millions of articles. < 1762106670 825037 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k < 1762106721 297945 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(BTW, I think of myself as fairly precocious, but I didn't start editing English WP until I was maybe 16 or 17; it's okay to still be learning about wiki culture.) < 1762106738 10036 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::]. < 1762106834 192317 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1762107003 859091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167349&oldid=167348 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+268) 10 < 1762107016 646862 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1762107454 772566 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, korvo, on the "no reference implementation" thing, does there need to be one? ive seen a whole lot of esolangs where it makes perfect sense but does not have a (atleast not a reference) implementation. if any command descriptions are unclear however, I'd like to know! because I want my documentation to be clear < 1762107526 11656 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: If there's a complete specification, or even a half-complete specification, then no, a reference implementation might not exist anymore. Usually this means that one was built in the past, but it has been retired. An example is [[Game of Life]]. < 1762107574 797508 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, in those cases, we offer the `majorimpl` tag IIRC, in {{infobox proglang}}, so that we can link to major implementations. This can also be used if there's popular competing implementations, as with CPython and PyPy on [[Python]]. < 1762107651 582651 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At some level, though, we only write languages so that we can express ourselves on the computer. We *want* implementations. Historically, languages like Lisp or APL started as blackboard notation for teaching, and the students wanted to use that notation on computers, so they implemented Lisp and APL for themselves! < 1762107706 736134 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like, you can still compute them. in fact ive done stuff manually a whole lot of times < 1762107726 899659 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that is not *just* me, Alan turing didnt program his chess machine < 1762107728 961888 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :On a practical level, I think that *every* language I've authored has started as some script named something like test.py, and slowly become something like cammy.py and then cammy/main.py and then cammy/cammylib/cam.py, all *before* becoming an article like [[Cammy]]. The implementation comes first; the wiki page is just how I share what I built with the community. < 1762107761 106794 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: to me, that just seems like differences in creating esolangs < 1762107774 901846 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. There are languages on the wiki that challenge those concepts; [[Unary]] is interesting for complexity theory, [[Sammy]] is interesting for category theory, etc. But those languages were written down by mathematicians trying to prove something about maths itself, not about computers. < 1762107846 587654 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Well, what else does "programming language" mean? "esolang" is short for the full phrase, "esoteric programming language", not just esoteric languages in general. For example, I speak Lojban and could write an article about it, but Lojban isn't a programming language, even though it's esoteric enough that people have only vaguely heard of it. < 1762107890 871095 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what? like yea its a programming language, just one that currently has to be computed manually < 1762107984 103699 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: There's no difference between manual and automatic computation. The machine is merely faster, not more capable. That's Turing's whole point about machines. < 1762108008 964331 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1762108023 435732 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yea, so I dont get what the issue with there being no reference implementation < 1762108037 64886 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have to leave anyways < 1762108044 746493 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but interesting conversation anyways < 1762108047 497645 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. Peace. < 1762108057 620780 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace! < 1762108335 101622 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1762108661 680533 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1762108784 981245 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan > 1762109826 763112 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flux (Esolangist)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167350 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+2348) 10Esolangist alt > 1762110085 173211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flux14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167351&oldid=126358 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+45) 10Distinguish template < 1762110187 101418 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist > 1762110484 69321 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:User:Main page/w/wiki/User:NotPrySigneToFry/what14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167352 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+365) 10Created page with "Welcome to the craziest esolang. You are invited to make this better! ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! Meaning !! Creator |- | OUT x || Outputs x || [[User:Esolangist]] |} ==Examples== > 1762110601 731350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167353&oldid=167319 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+148) 10More esolangs < 1762110674 304233 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed > 1762110800 117444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:User:Main page/w/wiki/User:NotPrySigneToFry/what14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167354&oldid=167352 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+121) 10 > 1762111170 920027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167355&oldid=166287 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+310) 10Esolangist alt > 1762111351 938782 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:/w/wiki/index.php/Talk:index.php/Main page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167356&oldid=167355 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+133) 10Esolangist alt < 1762111702 101299 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1762111920 487396 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp < 1762111992 437438 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1762112030 552664 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1762112236 159870 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1762112236 689309 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1762112236 759558 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1762112237 910980 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 NICK :sftp < 1762112238 57778 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp < 1762112244 742928 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 NICK :slavfox < 1762112335 673270 :callforjudgement!~ais523@31.94.2.72 JOIN #esolangs * :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1762112576 843481 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 JOIN #esolangs avih :avih < 1762112691 739712 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :A 1961 book distinguishes "compiler" by "assembler" as assemblers not having macros. Since IBM 1401 Autocoder has macros that expand to multiple machine instructions, it's a compiler and not an assembler < 1762112692 274149 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A_Guide_to_1401_Programming_1961.pdf < 1762112699 27423 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1762113169 631221 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi, i have 3 questions/notes regarding https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_speed_test : 1. it says "Each interepreter runs dbfi which ..." but the dbfi link has link to the original dbfi but shows code of cgbfi. so does it use the original dbfi or cgbfi? (also, both of them have a faster v2). 2. at the "execution argument" of the table, most of them are "type program.b | .\dbfi", however, this doesn't work in neither the original dbfi nor cgbfi, because both < 1762113169 658337 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs : of them require the program to end in "!", but the test program doesn't end in "!", so either the program or the execution arguments are incorrect. 3. bffsree_gcc is indeed very fast, and is available to download at the "bffsree" link, however, i don't think the source code in that page is for "bffsree_gcc". i think the source is an older (and slower) version, while the download binary of bffsree_gcc is for newer version without source code. so i think it < 1762113169 658384 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :should be noted someplace, or alternatively, test with bssfree which was compiled from the available source. < 1762113364 213327 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bffsree* < 1762113392 151304 :callforjudgement!~ais523@31.94.2.72 NICK :ais523 < 1762113510 882905 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1762113651 612360 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1762113746 554978 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her) < 1762113955 3435 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, this test program completes very quickly with optimizing interpreters/compilers, to the point where it's hard to measure meaningfully (startup overhead, etc), and additionally different interpreters excel at different things, so the test results are not necessarily representative in the grand scheme of things IMO, and it could be useful to have another test case. < 1762114281 259527 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's not mentioned, but usually it's also useful to disable cpu "turbo boost" to limit the frequency so that all programs are measured with the same cpu frequency without cpu throttling. < 1762114363 890973 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Thanks for looking at this. These pages definitely are a little messy and outdated. < 1762114451 402187 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: thanks. well, not necessarily outdated as such, but more like some things are unclear (which dbfi was actually used), and some just can't be right (no "!" at the test program or execution args)... < 1762114557 441300 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the bffsree/gcc thing is interesting. i was sure the source is available, till i looked at it and read the pages carefully, when i realized that i don't think it is available. < 1762114787 634592 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wouldn't have minded so much, except that it's listed as fastest, 3x faster than the 2nd best, so source availability is important here IMO < 1762114795 288330 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(bffsree) < 1762114796 177540 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW the fastest options are the JITs; the fastest one that I got working is the GNU Lightning version, followed in second place by my RPython interpreter. The AOT compilers do an alright job but they're working uphill. < 1762114847 904403 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :correct. though i also have an interpreter (no jit etc), which is only about 3x slower than jit < 1762114864 874425 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and typically faster than bffsree_gcc too) < 1762114921 655533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, wow. So I hadn't actually *read* this page. This is a Windows-only page! < 1762114962 378626 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was tested on windows, yes < 1762114966 798080 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fastest interpreter I've tested on NixOS (Linux) is http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html in GNU Lightning, followed in second place by mine https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/bf/bf.py in RPython. < 1762114996 297955 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :have you tried https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck ? the jit one is pretty sweet. < 1762115007 276449 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i only tested on windows though) < 1762115057 164109 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking now into your links. i don't think i've seen them before. thanks. < 1762115133 492010 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: but if it uses Lightning, then it's not really an interpreter as such, right? it basically generates source and compiles it on the fly. < 1762115151 571602 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tritium? It's a lot of code and a big achievement. However, it's very verbose and takes a while to get to the good stuff. My interpreter's not even 300 lines, and it could be shorter if I golfed it but I wanted it to be readable. There's also an explanatory post about compiler design that goes into details: https://pypy.org/posts/2024/11/guest-post-final-encoding-in-rpython.html < 1762115185 140679 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Tritium" ? < 1762115193 372241 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not sure what that means) < 1762115238 910999 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: GNU Lightning interprets bytecode for an imaginary CPU (the Lightning CPU, I guess?) and the JIT merely is a way of speeding that up, but the library includes a full emulator for that CPU too. < 1762115264 75541 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right. < 1762115282 284187 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but at least it's not an interpreter in the classic sense :) < 1762115296 972580 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not that it matters to the user though... < 1762115311 842552 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except maybe harder to build. < 1762115323 25928 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :An interpreter can have any internal structure. What matters is the effects that it performs. < 1762115340 274574 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure < 1762115406 333830 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then, you could also call this an interpreter: "bf2c < prog.b | gcc -O2 -xc - -o tmp && ./tmp && rm tmp" < 1762115440 459947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :My shell doesn't have `bf2c` or `gcc` as builtins? < 1762115480 941215 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, bf2c IS the thing you could call an interpreter, and it has a gcc dependency, just like other interpreters might have lightning as dependency < 1762115542 83869 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! Sure. Or, more pointedly, x86 is an interpreter. < 1762115545 212558 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think we both understand eachother. these are just semantics. < 1762115585 586117 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, yes. But semantics, also called effects, are what matter. < 1762115586 549020 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but anyway, looking now at your links. i wanna try them :) < 1762115624 940194 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPython might be preferable in this regard, or at least it might challenge your concept of dependency. Here's the ldd for bf.py: https://bpa.st/ZJLA < 1762115631 900667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( so much up for interpretation ) < 1762115637 748986 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :semantics matters to clarify the intent behind the words, but we both know what it means, just not necessarily how to call it :) < 1762115690 207102 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's RPython? (i'm not really a python guy, more shell and c guy) < 1762115702 75567 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: No, seriously, you're so close to seeing something really big. What if we could take an interpreter and somehow *specialize* it for a particular input? Then that would be equivalent to compiling the input, *and* we might be able to optimize the result. < 1762115730 654118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This leads to Futamura projections, which are what we get when we have specializers and we start applying them to interpreters and other programs. < 1762115733 777227 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :RPython < 1762115749 39695 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Sec, reading your reply carefully...) < 1762115790 462609 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*Sheesh. RPython is a frozen dialect of Python 2.7 that can be compiled into a C program. Optionally, it can add a JIT to that program. It was developed to build PyPy, a JIT interpreter for Python which is written in Python. < 1762115821 896588 :Awoobis!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon < 1762115830 856130 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not familiar with "Futamura projections", but i do get the gist of what you're saying. however, i don't think i understand what it implies, or what i should take from that < 1762115871 248868 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, I'm just not sure why JIT compilers aren't interpreters. They're very fancy interpreters, but they do interpret at runtime. < 1762115891 207894 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i see, rpython is like turtles all the way down, just with jit and python :) < 1762115930 279031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :GNU Lightning has similar origins. It was isolated from GNU Smalltalk's JIT. < 1762115982 432756 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i already agreed :) it's fine. they might require a bit more effort to use/build compared to plain python or c, but otherwise true < 1762115990 929229 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Indeed, the idea of JIT is attached to a Smalltalk offshoot called Self; this is the language that put the `self` keyword into Python, and it's also a big influence on ECMAScript. By no coincidence, the Self JIT folks went to work on JITs for ECMAScript and also to design JIT-friendly languages like Java. < 1762115999 822391 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interpreters to compilers are a spectrum. If you have an intermediate bytecode, is it still a pure interpreter ;) < 1762116025 478499 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::) < 1762116026 72199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you allow bytecode, what if the bytecode format happens to match the machine's architecture ;) < 1762116046 543984 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :all true :) < 1762116068 799476 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Well, they do still make 6502 chips. < 1762116103 690034 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :k, time to look at these links. not sure i have the deps to use them, but we'll see. < 1762116160 310527 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Laurent's code is likely easier to use than mine; I rely on having RPython already installed, or on the usage of a Unix package manager called "Nix", and neither are easy on Windows. < 1762116227 277487 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have many unixes too, and i don't have nix or rppython installed on any < 1762116246 213882 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not a problem per se, just i don't have them ready) < 1762116295 375847 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's Laurent's, yes? http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html < 1762116314 716487 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. It worked last time I tried, maybe 3-4yrs ago. < 1762116316 688546 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :What *I* personally am looking for in an interpreter is something that I can run programs with without producing extra garbage on my drive. Which is murky; Python tends to produce pyc files quite eagerly... < 1762116353 528888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(there's an environment variable to disable that) < 1762116512 792738 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i tried the windows binary, and it's fast, but about 1.4x slower than https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck and only about twice slower than my "pure" interpreter (i.e. no deps, just 1 small c file and stdio in libc) < 1762116673 974040 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :twice faster* than my c interpreter (which is not online yet) > 1762116771 443200 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167357&oldid=154633 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+1334) 10what < 1762116874 175628 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but slower than the rdebath jit (Dynasm. it supports Gnu Lightning too, but not at the windows binary) > 1762116906 217752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167358&oldid=167357 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+80) 10Esolangist alt > 1762116920 1534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167359&oldid=167358 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+0) 10Esolangist alt < 1762117186 856249 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: most interpreters can produce reasonably good c code, so to avoid leftover on your drive, you could "some-bf2c < prog.b | tcc - -run" < 1762117250 701925 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is typically faster than most interpreters, including the compilation time, but slower than jits < 1762117266 910703 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :slower than non-jit interpreters :) < 1762117296 278657 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or rather tcc -run -) < 1762117397 650812 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn. faster than non-jit interpreters, but slower than jit interpreters... my brain is fucked... < 1762117886 223321 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: re "i don't have bf2c as shell builtin", you could add this as a function to your (posix) shell rc file: < 1762117888 168646 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :d=#define U=unsigned; echo "#include @$U char t[65536];$U h;int c; < 1762117888 219970 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :$d C t[h&65535]@$d R ++h;@$d L --h;@$d P ++C;@$d M --C;@$d W while(C) {@$d\ < 1762117888 220035 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs : E }@$d O putchar(C);@$d I c=getchar();C=c<0?C:c;@int main(void){"|tr @ \\n < 1762117888 220047 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s="][><,.+-";tr -cd $s|tr $s EWRLIOPM|fold -w1;echo ";return 0;}" # avih < 1762117904 721792 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this is the next version of https://github.com/avih/bf2c.sh ) < 1762117997 535741 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's 300 bytes shell bf2c) < 1762118036 570792 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(zero optimizations, but i also have a 1k version which does RLE and balanced loops and tons of options. really super practical) < 1762118108 148348 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(with a debugger too :) ) < 1762118488 380046 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh < 1762118549 853922 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1762118611 303237 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1762118663 268615 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.183 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox < 1762118812 134630 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Nice. < 1762118851 501149 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks :) > 1762118976 799511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167360&oldid=167359 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+826) 10Esolangist alt < 1762119360 305601 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4 < 1762120553 679710 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: bonus preview, comments are welcome :) https://0x0.st/KLVv.txt < 1762120678 951210 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: can you mention in the description how overflow and underflow from + and - are handled? the description mentions that going off the tape from < and > is customizable, but a mode with no UB from -+ would also be useful < 1762120719 745070 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: indeed, but it's unsigned int/short/char, so wraps both ways < 1762120735 475300 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, just document that < 1762120743 977983 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because I find this code not easily readable < 1762120752 476779 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh! < 1762120756 849374 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you do say it after "CELLTYPE" < 1762120759 457775 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I See < 1762120764 529219 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i do have it at the github page and my WIP comment, but i wrote this comment/usage just now, but you're right) < 1762120765 299110 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry, I'm just blidn then < 1762120808 848694 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also, you could always look at teh generated c code ;) bf2c.sh < prog.b | less < 1762120839 18112 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's actually clearer than the sh code, as it expands all the vars > 1762120842 969364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167361&oldid=167360 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+673) 10/* User:Esolangist's attempts */ < 1762120903 718266 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: also, except for bugs, or with B=0, it should not have UB. everything should be by the book. < 1762120946 814127 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think "by the book" brainfuck originally allows UB, but I prefer interpreters that don't do that < 1762120952 381928 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or compilers < 1762120959 734018 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i my by the C book :) < 1762120966 622711 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean by* < 1762120990 211808 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ANSI version of the K&R bible? < 1762121010 551433 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i _think_ yes, but i mainly do c99 < 1762121050 723 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are no special types used. off the top of my head, the only think i'm not sure of is whether fcntl.h is c89 < 1762121058 800749 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thing* < 1762121092 513658 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it's only used on windows, but i didn't have enough bytes left under 1K to add #ifdef _WIN32 ;) ) < 1762121147 90419 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but i might be able to squeeze it in. it does have about 15 bytes spare after removing some spacing newlines) < 1762121210 799321 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I might squeeze it as ${W:+#include} < 1762121243 991347 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's why it's not at the github page yet. it's WIP) < 1762121317 242778 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's kind of funny to go for a size limit when using brainfuck in first place means that the programs will be long < 1762121329 169700 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't much like brainfuck < 1762121357 864324 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the original bf compiler went for a small size compiler... < 1762121405 313811 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's nothing to like about it, other than it works, and can be fun to solve bf related things :) < 1762121704 818868 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1762122032 476142 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re readable, yeah, it's hard to squeeze things into size limit and keep it readable, but i tried to keep it as readable as possible under the circumstances. it's not packed into 80-cols lines etc, and even has few excessive newlines for spacing ;) < 1762122436 441150 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: updated comment, unmodified code https://0x0.st/KLVd.txt < 1762122914 823002 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"not packed into 80-cols lines" => yeah, I have some attempts at those, like https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 < 1762123018 936335 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, and this is sh, it's "allowed" to use gzip too and eval the decompressed code, but i don't think it's fun, and it's also scary to use - eval of code which you can't see... < 1762123033 904759 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like to write code that is formatted normally but the algorithm that it uses is obscure and that's what makes it hard to understand, that's why I'm proud of https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395 < 1762123092 433203 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu < 1762123132 353410 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no need to add surface obfuscations or golfing if the actual method with the two unpacks is crazy enough < 1762123155 748481 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's great that different people find different things fun :) though i didn't try to obscure it by intent. it's only a result of the size limit. < 1762123227 96543 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as i said, the resulting c code is clearer as it expands all the variables, though the awk code can be hard to decipher, especially the second script < 1762123249 990027 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's the balanced counter loops handling) < 1762123277 793465 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1762123326 609278 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that was my original goal with olvashato, to generate clean readable code, though I only succeeded to a small part < 1762123352 237136 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like that debug line (#define D ... when $D is not empty) expands to about twice its size in the sh script :) < 1762123397 851284 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is olvsharo one of the links you posted earlier? < 1762123400 763804 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :t < 1762123413 729521 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no < 1762123420 868964 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not familiar with it then < 1762123429 312141 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3 < 1762123432 595449 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thx < 1762123452 604646 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hey, it's you! :D < 1762123479 565536 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I said "my original goal" so it's my code < 1762123542 303750 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can't say i remember anything at all about ML... < 1762123612 622223 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't have to remember the concrete syntax because the compiler knows that < 1762123638 843307 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i'm not that much into languages beyond c and sh, but i know a few, and recently decided to play a bit with bf, because i like tiny) < 1762123667 380408 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah :) was an unrelated comment (ML) < 1762123961 616723 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the olvashato code looks readable. nice. < 1762124295 268360 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: yes, but the goal was to make the SML and Prolog code that it outputs readable < 1762124302 99286 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I only partly succeeded that < 1762124340 294852 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could keep trying... :) < 1762124478 367609 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1762124562 874815 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: there's no point, I already passed the relevant course for which I've written this, and I have a diploma and everything, I have no reason to compile the same code to both SML and Prolog anymore, especially not into dialects for proprietary compilers that I only had access to as student versions < 1762124583 576264 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if I want to emit readable code I should write an Enchain compiler < 1762124626 842304 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, i misinterpreted "only partially succeeded" as "not too happy with that" < 1762124671 349623 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my plan is for that to emit straightforward C code, though not the most readable because it will rely on a "modern" (as in last twenty years) C compiler that can do inlining and basic register allocation < 1762124731 602661 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :out of curiosity, why would it need "register allocation"? (and what does it mean in this context?) < 1762124732 872917 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it won't be readable as C code, but useful enough in that you can see how it corresponds to the enchain source code straightforwardly < 1762124753 887930 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that's fair < 1762124789 527119 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: I mean it will emit each function call as a separate statement, even when the functions are just simple integer arithmetic operations, so an old non-optimizing compiler would probably unnecessarily save each intermediate result into a stack slot < 1762124852 251263 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and why would that matter, other than performance? or are you suggesting it would use more stack than it otherwise could? < 1762124899 884571 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i assumed the stack space would be temporary till after it's called) < 1762124902 766852 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just performance, yes, though it's mostly the inlining that matters < 1762124940 126001 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the C code read alone will be ugly because every value will go to a temporary with uninformative name, sort of like in the prolog output of Olvashato but worse, < 1762124951 978472 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, performance is second to correctness. get correctness right, then worry about performance IMO. < 1762124962 227087 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep < 1762124969 240299 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :brb < 1762124988 891017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but read it when you're writing the Enchain source code and you can tell that each statement corresponds to an Enchain statement < 1762125008 545285 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right > 1762125028 442284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Function-level programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167362 5* 03Fpstefan 5* (+1295) 10to Quote of J. Backus < 1762125032 209059 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i was a performance engineer in mozila for some years, and the amount of premature optimizations is a PITA) < 1762125039 795489 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mozilla* < 1762125139 521837 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs : (to be fair, it's not only mozilla. it's pretty much everywhere) < 1762125180 936997 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i get teh fun in squeezing every last bit of perf, but it does have costs... < 1762125328 183884 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course < 1762125340 126363 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that includes the code that I write < 1762125356 511702 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh < 1762127108 234665 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Ah, so you already know the most important part of profiling: stop when it's fast enough. I had been trying to determine what kind of speed you were trying to get out of Brainfuck, but it sounds like you didn't have a fixed goal. < 1762127194 865448 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it depends on the reason. if it's for work, sure, if it's for fun, then for as long as you're still having it ;) < 1762127234 246793 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and no, i don't have a goal, but i have few references of existing programs. < 1762127249 754501 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, like ais523. I am more emotionally driven; I think that most of my fast Python work has been out of spite more than anything else. My goal for Monte was to be faster than CPython for equivalent code. < 1762127253 486540 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so obviously i prefer to beat them :) < 1762127299 277537 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol < 1762127309 196245 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i like fast out of spite :) < 1762127412 392327 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: btw, re my initial thing about the speed test, do you know who tested it? are they here? < 1762127472 510708 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the golden goal is fast and tiny and readable ;) < 1762127503 67141 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Looks like None1, who I haven't seen here before. https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:None1 < 1762127543 291993 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :None1 is fairly active, but not on IRC < 1762127554 519853 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm... how does the esolangs wiki works in general? is it acceptable to edit other people's pages? (i don't intend to, and if i will i'll first ask here, so just info) < 1762127615 82575 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pages aren't owned by anyone < 1762127625 299440 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the designer of a language will normally have more information about what to put on them than other people < 1762127645 760020 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, it's a wiki, but i think it's courtesy to at least talk first with whoever wrote something before changing it... < 1762127662 756847 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the purpose of mainspace pages is to describe esolangs, rather than define them, so you can edit a page as long as it still describes the language correctly < 1762127740 322010 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that pinging them on their user talk page would be fine, and I also think that being bold about editing the main article would be fine depending on what you want to add. We're fairly collaborative here. < 1762127748 268219 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was referring to this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_speed_test which doesn't describe a language, but it does have some issues, including not being able to reproduce anything if following the described test procedure < 1762127784 48633 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and some clarity issues too) < 1762127855 983370 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks. anyway, no intent to edit anything for now, and i'll ask first regardless. thanks. < 1762127940 174038 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my position is basically "a language should exist outside the wiki, even if it's only in someone's head, and then the wiki is used to describe and possibly publicise that" < 1762127942 715164 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also haven't used media wiki before, but i don't doubt i can get over that ;) ) < 1762127975 622367 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I hadn't seen this page at all before, so I appreciate the discussion. < 1762127978 645360 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is ideal for the language to exist as, e.g., an implementation or specification elsewhere first, but that is not a requirement