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01:49:04 <esolangs> [[You make the esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167268&oldid=167128 * PrySigneToFry * (-38) Correct the title format.
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02:17:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:6 trits, 243 trytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167269 * TheBigH * (+117) created page ig
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03:57:25 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167270&oldid=166859 * Placeholding * (+368) changed a few commands
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04:08:46 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167271&oldid=167039 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+35)
04:12:48 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167272&oldid=167271 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* esolangs */
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04:20:04 <esolangs> [[Baulk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167273&oldid=167203 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+260)
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04:25:50 <esolangs> [[Hexagon says jump to line a if cell b is n and increment cell b by c if cell b equals d and output cell b is cell b equals e.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167274&oldid=153447 * PrySigneToFry * (+42)
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04:53:29 <Yayimhere> * Yayimhere has no idea how to respond
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04:55:17 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Thoughts on burn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167275 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2983) Created page with "Ok, first of all, I'd like to note, that I think the result most likely is somewhere ''else''. as in, a burn program generates a separate string of data from processing itself. this seems likely, as burn seems like a 2d Von Neumann cel
04:56:01 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167276&oldid=167272 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+70) /* things about me */
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05:06:26 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167277&oldid=167208 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-253)
05:16:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167278&oldid=128655 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+322)
05:17:56 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167279&oldid=167277 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+38)
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05:22:20 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167280&oldid=167279 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+19)
05:22:55 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167281&oldid=167280 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2) /* Programs */
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05:38:21 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167282&oldid=167281 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+38)
05:40:24 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167283&oldid=167282 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+85)
06:04:29 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167284&oldid=167283 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+59)
06:06:19 <esolangs> [[B2B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167285 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+963) Created page with "'''B2B''' is an esolang created by [[User:yayimhere]], while trying to prove [[,(*+)]] [[turing complete]]. It is a specific restriction on a [[Cyclic tag]], in which it allows one unbounded conditional production, and an unbounded number of unconditionals, as wel
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06:13:19 <esolangs> [[Brugtiohell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167286&oldid=166757 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+19)
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06:19:41 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167287&oldid=167284 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+119)
06:20:56 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167288&oldid=167287 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+145)
06:21:15 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167289&oldid=167288 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+29)
06:28:15 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167290&oldid=167289 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+151)
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06:38:47 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167291&oldid=167290 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+10)
06:39:52 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167292&oldid=167291 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+76)
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07:06:55 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167293&oldid=167292 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-6)
07:08:04 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167294&oldid=167293 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1)
07:13:50 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167295&oldid=167294 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+118)
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07:39:41 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167296&oldid=167295 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+46)
07:47:47 <esolangs> [[B2B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167297&oldid=167285 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4)
07:51:21 <esolangs> [[B2B to ,(*+)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167298 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1219) Created page with "'''B2B to ,(*+)''' is a translation from [[B2B]] into ,(*+). this does currently not prove ,(*+) [[Turing complete]], as [[B2B]] has an unknown computational class, though it is most likely turing complete. == Numbers == for every 1, it must be written <
07:55:00 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167299&oldid=167262 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+144) /* Truth machine */ Corrected truth machine
08:02:27 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167300&oldid=167299 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+238) /* BF to RSI0 */ Corrected loop example
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08:21:30 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167301&oldid=167300 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (-116) No beefydie :C
08:28:45 <Yayimhere> ais523: do you perhaps want to look at Baulk again?
08:28:59 <ais523> I'm a bit busy at the moment
08:36:58 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167302&oldid=166553 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+29) /* syntax */
08:37:46 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167303&oldid=167302 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* memory */
08:43:48 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167304&oldid=167303 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+172) /* syntax */
08:43:58 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167305&oldid=167304 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* syntax */
08:44:23 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167306&oldid=167305 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* syntax */
08:46:23 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167307&oldid=167306 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+20) /* syntax */
08:46:42 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167308&oldid=167307 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-229) /* examples */
08:49:19 <esolangs> [[0x80070050]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167309&oldid=167308 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+14) /* syntax */
08:50:29 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167310&oldid=167301 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+24) /* BF to RSI0 */ Hunger notice
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09:07:24 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167311&oldid=167310 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+7) /* Hunger */ Remove feature until I decide to add it back
09:08:54 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167312&oldid=167311 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+4) /* BF to RSI0 */ Fixed loop
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09:57:21 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167313&oldid=167312 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+1) /* BF to RSI0 */ Fixed loop translation
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10:41:24 <esolangs> [[4gn/]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167314&oldid=156401 * PrySigneToFry * (+681)
10:53:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang made with AI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167315&oldid=167267 * Esolangist alt * (+355) Esolangist alt
10:56:31 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167316&oldid=167313 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+238) /* Base Specification */ Added nondeterministic multi-tool + sanity
11:12:10 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.284436]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167317&oldid=164603 * PrySigneToFry * (+447)
11:13:09 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.284436]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167318&oldid=167317 * PrySigneToFry * (-2)
11:18:06 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167319&oldid=167195 * Esolangist alt * (+63) Esolangist alt
11:22:52 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.284436]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167320&oldid=167318 * PrySigneToFry * (+353)
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12:13:02 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Universe No.284436]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167321&oldid=167320 * PrySigneToFry * (+309)
13:22:31 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167322&oldid=167248 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+462) Added my funny "Hello, world!" program to my collection
13:44:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wuyugu * New user account
14:08:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skyraiderr5 * New user account
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14:54:07 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167323&oldid=167322 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+443)
14:59:56 <esolangs> [[RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167324&oldid=167316 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+31) Correct a minor error
15:00:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167325&oldid=167183 * Skyraiderr5 * (+176)
15:00:18 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167326&oldid=167323 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+0) /* "Hello, world!" in RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0 */ Corrected
15:01:17 <esolangs> [[Gurling]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167327 * Skyraiderr5 * (+2446) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Gurling |author=[[User:Skyraiderr5]] |year=2025 |majorimpl=Python |influenced=[[Python]]; [[Flug]] | }} {{WIP}} '''Gurling''' is an programming language with global variables and modular libraries. It is an interpreted language ==Language
15:06:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gurling]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167328 * Skyraiderr5 * (+356) Created page with "Welcome to the talk page! Please add suggestions to the end of the list Also add <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> to the end of the suggestion, its a signature This is an example of a suggestion * Add a <code>objects</code> lib with support for other Python datatypes.
15:08:27 <esolangs> [[Gurling]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167329&oldid=167327 * Skyraiderr5 * (+62)
15:09:41 <esolangs> [[Gurling]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167330&oldid=167329 * Skyraiderr5 * (+4)
15:15:52 <esolangs> [[Gurling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167331&oldid=167330 * Corbin * (+11) Fix up infobox proglang usage. `refimpl` is for the reference implementation; `majorimpl` is for well-known implementations in case of no/missing/defunct reference. `influenced` is for outgoing influences (when this language is in the past); `influence` is for incoming influences
15:18:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gurling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167332&oldid=167328 * Skyraiderr5 * (+382)
15:19:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:Gurling]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167333&oldid=167332 * Skyraiderr5 * (+69)
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16:00:31 <esolangs> [[Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167334&oldid=166044 * Corbin * (+1574) Infobox proglang; rewrite opening for context, history, clarity, and humor, as well as to remove some untruths and memes; references; grammar. The blockquote is so well-attested in the community that I feel uncomfortable giving it citations, but I've done so, going back to 1993;
16:05:24 <esolangs> [[Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167335&oldid=167334 * Corbin * (-4) [[Self]] is currently a joke language, not the actual research language. Ironic, given that Self is quite esoteric and the joke language is so facile.
16:08:44 <esolangs> [[Pseudocode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167336&oldid=156046 * Corbin * (+298) Quick simple explanation of a concept. Reuses a blanked page. Stop blanking pages, folks. Maybe take a day before creating a page to reflect on whether it's a good idea?
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16:21:34 <esolangs> [[Gurling]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167337&oldid=167331 * Skyraiderr5 * (+135) Added documentation for a small lib
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16:22:29 <esolangs> [[B2B to ,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167338&oldid=167298 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1219) Blanked the page
16:30:06 <esolangs> [[0134]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167339&oldid=167076 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-167)
16:32:51 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167340&oldid=166114 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+313)
16:33:45 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167341&oldid=167296 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-603)
16:35:12 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167342&oldid=167341 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-68)
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16:37:27 <korvo> Yayimhere: Could you explain your reasoning regarding the block request?
16:38:10 <Yayimhere> korvo: unname has tried to edit the commands of my esolang quite a bit, so I'd like that they just arent able to do that
16:38:21 <Yayimhere> i have *no* idea why but they just kept doing it
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16:39:48 <korvo> Yayimhere: Write down the specification anywhere else. Write an interpreter. Put up a Web page that specifies it.
16:40:26 <Yayimhere> korvo: yes, but for me, its still annoying to uphold that page
16:40:40 <Yayimhere> (im not asking for a block on anything else, just one that specific page)
16:41:00 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, by what standard are your edits the correct ones and their edits the incorrect ones?
16:41:22 <korvo> (Asking for a slight overreach is still asking for an overreach.)
16:43:04 <Yayimhere> korvo: its my language, and as such, I know what is correct and what is not
16:43:45 <Yayimhere> (I would not consider it an overreach, but maybe im wrong)
16:46:50 <korvo> It would be completely unreasonable on a larger wiki. It could be a solution to an edit war, were one to occur.
16:47:42 <korvo> Quoting site policy, "Articles on languages you made yourself are encouraged, unlike for example Wikipedia. However, these may still be mercilessly edited by others. In most cases this is a good thing."
16:48:52 <korvo> You agree to release your articles here to the public domain. If you want to describe a language and have it show up in search results, *and* not be edited by others here to be different from your description, then you need some *additional* documentation for your language hosted somewhere else. This is a very very weak version of the notability requirement; I'm saying that we need some external source by which to judge articles.
16:50:36 <korvo> If your language is still WIP and it's going to take you a while to finish, then moving it to be under your user namespace would be a reasonable compromise; the policy is that each user is entitled to their own user pages (and that's why the policy discourages editing each other's user pages!)
16:51:16 <Yayimhere> I mostly do not have a place to put my external recourses
16:51:40 <Yayimhere> atleast not one that is online and so accessable to others on the web
16:51:40 <korvo> Lucky 10000: neocities.org
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16:52:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167343&oldid=167340 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-313)
16:52:35 <korvo> But, again, at your age, you're not expected to be producing new languages. Certainly not producing dozens of languages/year. You're expected to be studying and learning. There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but you should be aware that experiments documented on the wiki are documented in the public domain.
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16:53:55 <Yayimhere> (i assume "expected" does not mean "should not")
16:54:17 <korvo> Sure, no problem. I remember being your age and utterly delighted by Geocities, the site which inspired Neocities. It's a good first step. Be sure to read the terms of service; there *are* rules for using other peoples' sites. If you want fewer rules then you'll have to host it yourself, which might require you to be a legal adult first.
16:54:44 <Yayimhere> I should propably read up one rules more
16:54:54 <korvo> (I am not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what the rules are, including the rules of society. I think that you should do whatever you want! But I also often think that people should modify their desires.)
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17:08:44 <esolangs> [[R + S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167344&oldid=164736 * C++DSUCKER * (+66)
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17:30:44 <korvo> esolangs: What is Python good for?
17:33:11 <korvo> fungot: What is Python good for?
17:33:12 <fungot> korvo: greece is going through bad times that is why my group is at the centre of the eu member states, but i promise to propose this plan. that is why and this is the custom with human rights.
17:33:47 <esolangs> korvo: Python is excellent for a wide range of tasks due to its versatility and ease of use. It excels in web development, data science, machine learning, scripting, and automation. Its extensive libraries and beginner-friendly syntax make it ideal for rapid prototyping and development. Python's cross-platform compatibility and strong community support...
17:34:14 <korvo> That's pretty good. Could be pre-canned instead of RAG though.
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17:42:50 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167345&oldid=167342 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+612)
17:43:02 <esolangs> [[,(*+)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167346&oldid=167345 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-76)
17:44:21 <esolangs> [[Lalala]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167347&oldid=167075 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+50) /* syntax */
17:46:49 <Yayimhere> this is the last time im asking this(if ive asked it before, I have bad memory), but can anyone reccomend a good language to prove this tc(please not a cyclic tag system though, I tried): https://esolangs.org/wiki/,(*%2B)
17:53:33 <korvo> It's marked as unusable for programming and there's no reference interpreter. I don't know how the language is supposed to behave.
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17:54:22 <Yayimhere> I put unusable for programming on most of my esolangs, for the reason they arent useful for very high level things,
17:55:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Burn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167348&oldid=164803 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+159) /* Name */
17:55:24 <ais523> korvo: note that I often do warn people for editing commands into other people's languages – the pages are meant to describe the language, and changing the page normally doesn't change the language in its creator's mind, so it's just makign the page inaccurate
17:56:31 <korvo> ais523: I'm willing to accept that, but in this particular case I genuinely couldn't tell what the original page is supposed to look like. I'm also unclear on whether there's other chats influencing the edits.
17:57:14 <Yayimhere> korvo: to answer your second question, me and unname have never talked to each other before this
17:57:32 <korvo> I've tried to be fairly conservative in my own edits to joke languages. Many of them are poorly worded, but does improving the wording make the joke worse? Or better?
17:57:41 * korvo can't do a good Invader Zim voice
17:58:43 <korvo> Yayimhere: Okay. Then, for the future, the standard wiki convention is that you can revert their edits. It helps if you add to the notes for the revert to say *what they got wrong*. One wrong edit means one revert.
17:59:22 <korvo> An **edit war** is when they revert your revert, or do something equivalent. At that point, take a step back to cool off and consider asking somebody with more experience to step in.
18:01:54 <korvo> BTW, in general, edit notes are good. You can look at regular editors like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ais523 or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/B_jonas to get a sense of how often they're used. Talk pages don't need it much (because you can just read the talk page) and on WP it's actually kind of rude!
18:02:16 <korvo> (And then there are some *freaks* like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Corbin ~)
18:02:43 <b_jonas> me? I usually don't make good edit comments
18:03:21 <korvo> WP is Wikipedia. Usually English Wikipedia, but also Wikipedia in general. English WP's rules aren't binding but they are very good conventions that scale up to thousands of editors and millions of articles.
18:05:21 <korvo> (BTW, I think of myself as fairly precocious, but I didn't start editing English WP until I was maybe 16 or 17; it's okay to still be learning about wiki culture.)
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18:17:34 <Yayimhere> also, korvo, on the "no reference implementation" thing, does there need to be one? ive seen a whole lot of esolangs where it makes perfect sense but does not have a (atleast not a reference) implementation. if any command descriptions are unclear however, I'd like to know! because I want my documentation to be clear
18:18:46 <korvo> Yayimhere: If there's a complete specification, or even a half-complete specification, then no, a reference implementation might not exist anymore. Usually this means that one was built in the past, but it has been retired. An example is [[Game of Life]].
18:19:34 <korvo> However, in those cases, we offer the `majorimpl` tag IIRC, in {{infobox proglang}}, so that we can link to major implementations. This can also be used if there's popular competing implementations, as with CPython and PyPy on [[Python]].
18:20:51 <korvo> At some level, though, we only write languages so that we can express ourselves on the computer. We *want* implementations. Historically, languages like Lisp or APL started as blackboard notation for teaching, and the students wanted to use that notation on computers, so they implemented Lisp and APL for themselves!
18:21:46 <Yayimhere> but like, you can still compute them. in fact ive done stuff manually a whole lot of times
18:22:06 <Yayimhere> and that is not *just* me, Alan turing didnt program his chess machine
18:22:08 <korvo> On a practical level, I think that *every* language I've authored has started as some script named something like test.py, and slowly become something like cammy.py and then cammy/main.py and then cammy/cammylib/cam.py, all *before* becoming an article like [[Cammy]]. The implementation comes first; the wiki page is just how I share what I built with the community.
18:22:41 <Yayimhere> korvo: to me, that just seems like differences in creating esolangs
18:22:54 <korvo> Sure. There are languages on the wiki that challenge those concepts; [[Unary]] is interesting for complexity theory, [[Sammy]] is interesting for category theory, etc. But those languages were written down by mathematicians trying to prove something about maths itself, not about computers.
18:24:06 <korvo> Yayimhere: Well, what else does "programming language" mean? "esolang" is short for the full phrase, "esoteric programming language", not just esoteric languages in general. For example, I speak Lojban and could write an article about it, but Lojban isn't a programming language, even though it's esoteric enough that people have only vaguely heard of it.
18:24:50 <Yayimhere> korvo: what? like yea its a programming language, just one that currently has to be computed manually
18:26:24 <korvo> Yayimhere: There's no difference between manual and automatic computation. The machine is merely faster, not more capable. That's Turing's whole point about machines.
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18:27:03 <Yayimhere> korvo: yea, so I dont get what the issue with there being no reference implementation
18:27:24 <Yayimhere> but interesting conversation anyways
18:27:27 <korvo> No worries. Peace.
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19:01:25 <esolangs> [[Flux]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167351&oldid=126358 * Esolangist alt * (+45) Distinguish template
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19:10:01 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167353&oldid=167319 * Esolangist alt * (+148) More esolangs
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19:44:51 <Sgeo> A 1961 book distinguishes "compiler" by "assembler" as assemblers not having macros. Since IBM 1401 Autocoder has macros that expand to multiple machine instructions, it's a compiler and not an assembler
19:44:52 <Sgeo> https://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1401/A_Guide_to_1401_Programming_1961.pdf
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19:52:49 <avih> hi, i have 3 questions/notes regarding https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_speed_test : 1. it says "Each interepreter runs dbfi which ..." but the dbfi link has link to the original dbfi but shows code of cgbfi. so does it use the original dbfi or cgbfi? (also, both of them have a faster v2). 2. at the "execution argument" of the table, most of them are "type program.b | .\dbfi", however, this doesn't work in neither the original dbfi nor cgbfi, because both
19:52:49 <avih> of them require the program to end in "!", but the test program doesn't end in "!", so either the program or the execution arguments are incorrect. 3. bffsree_gcc is indeed very fast, and is available to download at the "bffsree" link, however, i don't think the source code in that page is for "bffsree_gcc". i think the source is an older (and slower) version, while the download binary of bffsree_gcc is for newer version without source code. so i think it
19:52:49 <avih> should be noted someplace, or alternatively, test with bssfree which was compiled from the available source.
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20:05:55 <avih> also, this test program completes very quickly with optimizing interpreters/compilers, to the point where it's hard to measure meaningfully (startup overhead, etc), and additionally different interpreters excel at different things, so the test results are not necessarily representative in the grand scheme of things IMO, and it could be useful to have another test case.
20:11:21 <avih> (it's not mentioned, but usually it's also useful to disable cpu "turbo boost" to limit the frequency so that all programs are measured with the same cpu frequency without cpu throttling.
20:12:43 <korvo> avih: Thanks for looking at this. These pages definitely are a little messy and outdated.
20:14:11 <avih> korvo: thanks. well, not necessarily outdated as such, but more like some things are unclear (which dbfi was actually used), and some just can't be right (no "!" at the test program or execution args)...
20:15:57 <avih> and the bffsree/gcc thing is interesting. i was sure the source is available, till i looked at it and read the pages carefully, when i realized that i don't think it is available.
20:19:47 <avih> i wouldn't have minded so much, except that it's listed as fastest, 3x faster than the 2nd best, so source availability is important here IMO
20:19:56 <korvo> FWIW the fastest options are the JITs; the fastest one that I got working is the GNU Lightning version, followed in second place by my RPython interpreter. The AOT compilers do an alright job but they're working uphill.
20:20:47 <avih> correct. though i also have an interpreter (no jit etc), which is only about 3x slower than jit
20:21:04 <avih> (and typically faster than bffsree_gcc too)
20:22:01 <korvo> Oh, wow. So I hadn't actually *read* this page. This is a Windows-only page!
20:22:42 <avih> it was tested on windows, yes
20:22:46 <korvo> The fastest interpreter I've tested on NixOS (Linux) is http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html in GNU Lightning, followed in second place by mine https://github.com/rpypkgs/rpypkgs/blob/main/bf/bf.py in RPython.
20:23:16 <avih> have you tried https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck ? the jit one is pretty sweet.
20:23:27 <avih> (i only tested on windows though)
20:24:17 <avih> looking now into your links. i don't think i've seen them before. thanks.
20:25:33 <avih> korvo: but if it uses Lightning, then it's not really an interpreter as such, right? it basically generates source and compiles it on the fly.
20:25:51 <korvo> Tritium? It's a lot of code and a big achievement. However, it's very verbose and takes a while to get to the good stuff. My interpreter's not even 300 lines, and it could be shorter if I golfed it but I wanted it to be readable. There's also an explanatory post about compiler design that goes into details: https://pypy.org/posts/2024/11/guest-post-final-encoding-in-rpython.html
20:26:33 <avih> (not sure what that means)
20:27:18 <korvo> avih: GNU Lightning interprets bytecode for an imaginary CPU (the Lightning CPU, I guess?) and the JIT merely is a way of speeding that up, but the library includes a full emulator for that CPU too.
20:28:02 <avih> but at least it's not an interpreter in the classic sense :)
20:28:16 <avih> not that it matters to the user though...
20:28:31 <avih> except maybe harder to build.
20:28:43 <korvo> An interpreter can have any internal structure. What matters is the effects that it performs.
20:30:06 <avih> but then, you could also call this an interpreter: "bf2c < prog.b | gcc -O2 -xc - -o tmp && ./tmp && rm tmp"
20:30:40 <korvo> My shell doesn't have `bf2c` or `gcc` as builtins?
20:31:20 <avih> no, bf2c IS the thing you could call an interpreter, and it has a gcc dependency, just like other interpreters might have lightning as dependency
20:32:22 <korvo> Oh! Sure. Or, more pointedly, x86 is an interpreter.
20:32:25 <avih> i think we both understand eachother. these are just semantics.
20:33:05 <korvo> Well, yes. But semantics, also called effects, are what matter.
20:33:06 <avih> but anyway, looking now at your links. i wanna try them :)
20:33:44 <korvo> RPython might be preferable in this regard, or at least it might challenge your concept of dependency. Here's the ldd for bf.py: https://bpa.st/ZJLA
20:33:51 <int-e> . o O ( so much up for interpretation )
20:33:57 <avih> semantics matters to clarify the intent behind the words, but we both know what it means, just not necessarily how to call it :)
20:34:50 <avih> what's RPython? (i'm not really a python guy, more shell and c guy)
20:35:02 <korvo> avih: No, seriously, you're so close to seeing something really big. What if we could take an interpreter and somehow *specialize* it for a particular input? Then that would be equivalent to compiling the input, *and* we might be able to optimize the result.
20:35:30 <korvo> This leads to Futamura projections, which are what we get when we have specializers and we start applying them to interpreters and other programs.
20:35:49 <avih> (Sec, reading your reply carefully...)
20:36:30 <korvo> *Sheesh. RPython is a frozen dialect of Python 2.7 that can be compiled into a C program. Optionally, it can add a JIT to that program. It was developed to build PyPy, a JIT interpreter for Python which is written in Python.
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20:37:10 <avih> not familiar with "Futamura projections", but i do get the gist of what you're saying. however, i don't think i understand what it implies, or what i should take from that
20:37:51 <korvo> Well, I'm just not sure why JIT compilers aren't interpreters. They're very fancy interpreters, but they do interpret at runtime.
20:38:11 <avih> i see, rpython is like turtles all the way down, just with jit and python :)
20:38:50 <korvo> GNU Lightning has similar origins. It was isolated from GNU Smalltalk's JIT.
20:39:42 <avih> korvo: i already agreed :) it's fine. they might require a bit more effort to use/build compared to plain python or c, but otherwise true
20:39:50 <korvo> Indeed, the idea of JIT is attached to a Smalltalk offshoot called Self; this is the language that put the `self` keyword into Python, and it's also a big influence on ECMAScript. By no coincidence, the Self JIT folks went to work on JITs for ECMAScript and also to design JIT-friendly languages like Java.
20:39:59 <int-e> Interpreters to compilers are a spectrum. If you have an intermediate bytecode, is it still a pure interpreter ;)
20:40:26 <int-e> If you allow bytecode, what if the bytecode format happens to match the machine's architecture ;)
20:41:08 <korvo> int-e: Well, they do still make 6502 chips.
20:41:43 <avih> k, time to look at these links. not sure i have the deps to use them, but we'll see.
20:42:40 <korvo> Laurent's code is likely easier to use than mine; I rely on having RPython already installed, or on the usage of a Unix package manager called "Nix", and neither are easy on Windows.
20:43:47 <avih> i have many unixes too, and i don't have nix or rppython installed on any
20:44:06 <avih> (not a problem per se, just i don't have them ready)
20:44:55 <avih> korvo: that's Laurent's, yes? http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html
20:45:14 <korvo> Yeah. It worked last time I tried, maybe 3-4yrs ago.
20:45:16 <int-e> What *I* personally am looking for in an interpreter is something that I can run programs with without producing extra garbage on my drive. Which is murky; Python tends to produce pyc files quite eagerly...
20:45:53 <int-e> (there's an environment variable to disable that)
20:48:32 <avih> korvo: i tried the windows binary, and it's fast, but about 1.4x slower than https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck and only about twice slower than my "pure" interpreter (i.e. no deps, just 1 small c file and stdio in libc)
20:51:13 <avih> twice faster* than my c interpreter (which is not online yet)
20:52:51 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167357&oldid=154633 * Esolangist alt * (+1334) what
20:54:34 <avih> but slower than the rdebath jit (Dynasm. it supports Gnu Lightning too, but not at the windows binary)
20:55:06 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167358&oldid=167357 * Esolangist alt * (+80) Esolangist alt
20:55:20 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167359&oldid=167358 * Esolangist alt * (+0) Esolangist alt
20:59:46 <avih> int-e: most interpreters can produce reasonably good c code, so to avoid leftover on your drive, you could "some-bf2c < prog.b | tcc - -run"
21:00:50 <avih> this is typically faster than most interpreters, including the compilation time, but slower than jits
21:01:06 <avih> slower than non-jit interpreters :)
21:01:36 <avih> (or rather tcc -run -)
21:03:17 <avih> damn. faster than non-jit interpreters, but slower than jit interpreters... my brain is fucked...
21:11:26 <avih> korvo: re "i don't have bf2c as shell builtin", you could add this as a function to your (posix) shell rc file:
21:11:28 <avih> d=#define U=unsigned; echo "#include <stdio.h>@$U char t[65536];$U h;int c;
21:11:28 <avih> $d C t[h&65535]@$d R ++h;@$d L --h;@$d P ++C;@$d M --C;@$d W while(C) {@$d\
21:11:28 <avih> E }@$d O putchar(C);@$d I c=getchar();C=c<0?C:c;@int main(void){"|tr @ \\n
21:11:28 <avih> s="][><,.+-";tr -cd $s|tr $s EWRLIOPM|fold -w1;echo ";return 0;}" # avih
21:11:44 <avih> (this is the next version of https://github.com/avih/bf2c.sh )
21:13:17 <avih> (that's 300 bytes shell bf2c)
21:13:56 <avih> (zero optimizations, but i also have a 1k version which does RLE and balanced loops and tons of options. really super practical)
21:15:08 <avih> (with a debugger too :) )
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21:29:36 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167360&oldid=167359 * Esolangist alt * (+826) Esolangist alt
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21:55:53 <avih> b_jonas: bonus preview, comments are welcome :) https://0x0.st/KLVv.txt
21:57:58 <b_jonas> avih: can you mention in the description how overflow and underflow from + and - are handled? the description mentions that going off the tape from < and > is customizable, but a mode with no UB from -+ would also be useful
21:58:39 <avih> b_jonas: indeed, but it's unsigned int/short/char, so wraps both ways
21:59:03 <b_jonas> because I find this code not easily readable
21:59:16 <b_jonas> you do say it after "CELLTYPE"
21:59:24 <avih> (i do have it at the github page and my WIP comment, but i wrote this comment/usage just now, but you're right)
21:59:25 <b_jonas> sorry, I'm just blidn then
22:00:08 <avih> also, you could always look at teh generated c code ;) bf2c.sh < prog.b | less
22:00:39 <avih> it's actually clearer than the sh code, as it expands all the vars
22:00:42 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167361&oldid=167360 * Esolangist * (+673) /* User:Esolangist's attempts */
22:01:43 <avih> b_jonas: also, except for bugs, or with B=0, it should not have UB. everything should be by the book.
22:02:26 <b_jonas> I think "by the book" brainfuck originally allows UB, but I prefer interpreters that don't do that
22:02:39 <avih> i my by the C book :)
22:03:10 <b_jonas> the ANSI version of the K&R bible?
22:03:30 <avih> i _think_ yes, but i mainly do c99
22:04:10 <avih> there are no special types used. off the top of my head, the only think i'm not sure of is whether fcntl.h is c89
22:04:52 <avih> (it's only used on windows, but i didn't have enough bytes left under 1K to add #ifdef _WIN32 ;) )
22:05:47 <avih> (but i might be able to squeeze it in. it does have about 15 bytes spare after removing some spacing newlines)
22:06:50 <avih> I might squeeze it as ${W:+#include<fcntl.h>}
22:07:23 <avih> (that's why it's not at the github page yet. it's WIP)
22:08:37 <b_jonas> it's kind of funny to go for a size limit when using brainfuck in first place means that the programs will be long
22:08:49 <b_jonas> I don't much like brainfuck
22:09:17 <avih> well, the original bf compiler went for a small size compiler...
22:10:05 <avih> there's nothing to like about it, other than it works, and can be fun to solve bf related things :)
22:20:32 <avih> re readable, yeah, it's hard to squeeze things into size limit and keep it readable, but i tried to keep it as readable as possible under the circumstances. it's not packed into 80-cols lines etc, and even has few excessive newlines for spacing ;)
22:27:16 <avih> b_jonas: updated comment, unmodified code https://0x0.st/KLVd.txt
22:35:14 <b_jonas> "not packed into 80-cols lines" => yeah, I have some attempts at those, like https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
22:36:58 <avih> yeah, and this is sh, it's "allowed" to use gzip too and eval the decompressed code, but i don't think it's fun, and it's also scary to use - eval of code which you can't see...
22:37:13 <b_jonas> I like to write code that is formatted normally but the algorithm that it uses is obscure and that's what makes it hard to understand, that's why I'm proud of https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395
22:38:52 <b_jonas> no need to add surface obfuscations or golfing if the actual method with the two unpacks is crazy enough
22:39:15 <avih> b_jonas: it's great that different people find different things fun :) though i didn't try to obscure it by intent. it's only a result of the size limit.
22:40:27 <avih> as i said, the resulting c code is clearer as it expands all the variables, though the awk code can be hard to decipher, especially the second script
22:40:49 <avih> (that's the balanced counter loops handling)
22:42:06 <b_jonas> that was my original goal with olvashato, to generate clean readable code, though I only succeeded to a small part
22:42:32 <avih> like that debug line (#define D ... when $D is not empty) expands to about twice its size in the sh script :)
22:43:17 <avih> is olvsharo one of the links you posted earlier?
22:43:40 <avih> not familiar with it then
22:43:49 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3
22:44:12 <avih> oh hey, it's you! :D
22:44:39 <b_jonas> yes, I said "my original goal" so it's my code
22:45:42 <avih> can't say i remember anything at all about ML...
22:46:52 <b_jonas> you don't have to remember the concrete syntax because the compiler knows that
22:47:18 <avih> (i'm not that much into languages beyond c and sh, but i know a few, and recently decided to play a bit with bf, because i like tiny)
22:47:47 <avih> yeah :) was an unrelated comment (ML)
22:52:41 <avih> b_jonas: the olvashato code looks readable. nice.
22:58:15 <b_jonas> avih: yes, but the goal was to make the SML and Prolog code that it outputs readable
22:58:22 <b_jonas> and I only partly succeeded that
22:59:00 <avih> you could keep trying... :)
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23:02:42 <b_jonas> avih: there's no point, I already passed the relevant course for which I've written this, and I have a diploma and everything, I have no reason to compile the same code to both SML and Prolog anymore, especially not into dialects for proprietary compilers that I only had access to as student versions
23:03:03 <b_jonas> if I want to emit readable code I should write an Enchain compiler
23:03:46 <avih> oh, i misinterpreted "only partially succeeded" as "not too happy with that"
23:04:31 <b_jonas> my plan is for that to emit straightforward C code, though not the most readable because it will rely on a "modern" (as in last twenty years) C compiler that can do inlining and basic register allocation
23:05:31 <avih> out of curiosity, why would it need "register allocation"? (and what does it mean in this context?)
23:05:32 <b_jonas> so it won't be readable as C code, but useful enough in that you can see how it corresponds to the enchain source code straightforwardly
23:05:53 <avih> i think that's fair
23:06:29 <b_jonas> avih: I mean it will emit each function call as a separate statement, even when the functions are just simple integer arithmetic operations, so an old non-optimizing compiler would probably unnecessarily save each intermediate result into a stack slot
23:07:32 <avih> and why would that matter, other than performance? or are you suggesting it would use more stack than it otherwise could?
23:08:19 <avih> (i assumed the stack space would be temporary till after it's called)
23:08:22 <b_jonas> just performance, yes, though it's mostly the inlining that matters
23:09:00 <b_jonas> the C code read alone will be ugly because every value will go to a temporary with uninformative name, sort of like in the prolog output of Olvashato but worse,
23:09:11 <avih> well, performance is second to correctness. get correctness right, then worry about performance IMO.
23:09:48 <b_jonas> but read it when you're writing the Enchain source code and you can tell that each statement corresponds to an Enchain statement
23:10:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Function-level programming]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167362 * Fpstefan * (+1295) to Quote of J. Backus
23:10:32 <avih> (i was a performance engineer in mozila for some years, and the amount of premature optimizations is a PITA)
23:12:19 <avih> (to be fair, it's not only mozilla. it's pretty much everywhere)
23:13:00 <avih> i get teh fun in squeezing every last bit of perf, but it does have costs...
23:15:40 <b_jonas> that includes the code that I write
23:45:08 <korvo> avih: Ah, so you already know the most important part of profiling: stop when it's fast enough. I had been trying to determine what kind of speed you were trying to get out of Brainfuck, but it sounds like you didn't have a fixed goal.
23:46:34 <avih> it depends on the reason. if it's for work, sure, if it's for fun, then for as long as you're still having it ;)
23:47:14 <avih> and no, i don't have a goal, but i have few references of existing programs.
23:47:29 <korvo> Ah, like ais523. I am more emotionally driven; I think that most of my fast Python work has been out of spite more than anything else. My goal for Monte was to be faster than CPython for equivalent code.
23:47:33 <avih> so obviously i prefer to beat them :)
23:48:29 <avih> i like fast out of spite :)
23:50:12 <avih> korvo: btw, re my initial thing about the speed test, do you know who tested it? are they here?
23:51:12 <avih> but the golden goal is fast and tiny and readable ;)
23:51:43 <korvo> avih: Looks like None1, who I haven't seen here before. https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:None1
23:52:23 <ais523> None1 is fairly active, but not on IRC
23:52:34 <avih> hmm... how does the esolangs wiki works in general? is it acceptable to edit other people's pages? (i don't intend to, and if i will i'll first ask here, so just info)
23:53:35 <ais523> pages aren't owned by anyone
23:53:45 <ais523> although the designer of a language will normally have more information about what to put on them than other people
23:54:05 <avih> sure, it's a wiki, but i think it's courtesy to at least talk first with whoever wrote something before changing it...
23:54:22 <ais523> the purpose of mainspace pages is to describe esolangs, rather than define them, so you can edit a page as long as it still describes the language correctly
23:55:40 <korvo> I think that pinging them on their user talk page would be fine, and I also think that being bold about editing the main article would be fine depending on what you want to add. We're fairly collaborative here.
23:55:48 <avih> i was referring to this https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_speed_test which doesn't describe a language, but it does have some issues, including not being able to reproduce anything if following the described test procedure
23:56:24 <avih> (and some clarity issues too)
23:57:35 <avih> thanks. anyway, no intent to edit anything for now, and i'll ask first regardless. thanks.
23:59:00 <ais523> my position is basically "a language should exist outside the wiki, even if it's only in someone's head, and then the wiki is used to describe and possibly publicise that"
23:59:02 <avih> (also haven't used media wiki before, but i don't doubt i can get over that ;) )
23:59:35 <korvo> No worries. I hadn't seen this page at all before, so I appreciate the discussion.
23:59:38 <ais523> it is ideal for the language to exist as, e.g., an implementation or specification elsewhere first, but that is not a requirement