< 1762128007 109012 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: agreed
< 1762128060 775408 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good reason to edit pages created by other people is because you're adding things like discussions of a language's computational class, or interpreters, or relationships between the language and other languages
> 1762128131 645479 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rail (data structure)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167363 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1126) 10Stub a common Brainfuck-only data structure. More words and example code in a moment.
< 1762128134 495842 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i'll probably add my interpreters when they're more than a preview, without asking first.
< 1762128191 91458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523, int-e: ^^^ Stubbed the BF stack-like thing that keeps showing up in lore. I use this in my stack machines, so I have code to bring to the table. My terminology is *not* standard and I would love for you to add your names for situations.
< 1762128230 341823 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: ping palaiologos as well, he might be interested in that brainfuck speed test thingy
< 1762128232 689482 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: you are missing a generalisation, of interleaving rails
< 1762128292 230091 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: are they here sometimes?
< 1762128300 354173 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ah, so a program can have k distinct rails, sure.
< 1762128313 502948 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I should write an Esimpl-to-BF compiler as a sort of formalisation of this sort of thing
< 1762128337 776408 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I've also written programs with a sort of "marker rail" that's nonzero in most places but zero in a few, that are used to mark positions on other rails
< 1762128338 652774 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i didn't know of http://lvogel.free.fr/bf.html though, and i like it.
< 1762128390 368112 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it mentions two test programs which i don't think i;ve seen before: sisihi.b and long.b . does anyone knows where they can be found?
< 1762128442 351016 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i do test with mandelbrot and hanoi. bffsree_gcc is a deamon with that. i have no clue what the f*ck it does to be so fast...)
< 1762128458 40569 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: only by the standards of how slow this channel is. probably better to ping https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Palaiologos on the wiki.
< 1762128474 185280 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(deamon with hanoi, but in mandelbrot i'm about 2x faster than it)
< 1762128478 760636 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: to ping someone you use the user talk page, not the userpage
< 1762128483 424892 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you linked the wrong page
< 1762128486 628450 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1762128498 404192 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people who are familiar with MediaWiki will know this but avih isn't
< 1762128536 603574 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i get that it can be some form of communication, but i don't have an account and i haven't used it in general.
< 1762128550 363351 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I was thinking more of the ping feature which you get by writing @ followed by a link to the userpage onto an edit in some other page, such as the talk page of that speed test thingy, ping both palaiologos and None in one go
< 1762128555 289303 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you're right normally
< 1762128578 67850 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: that isn't installed on Esolang
< 1762128580 599110 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh nice, then you're still yet to learn about the base 9 thing
< 1762128603 863389 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's not in this mediawiki installation? good to know
< 1762128622 301696 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the wiki signup process is a bit confusing – we had to make it confusing enough to stop spambots, but most legitimate editors are able to figure it out
< 1762128658 323144 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(we used to get a *lot* of spambots, but the current combination seems to be keeping them out so far)
< 1762128668 343922 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: really? what would spambots do with esolangs wiki?!
< 1762128674 516468 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :post spam on it
< 1762128678 552526 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh
< 1762128686 171340 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's what they do with everything else
< 1762128713 366325 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wouldn't think it's worth the effort or power consumption. i get tat maybe on wikipedia or other places with lots of eyes...
< 1762128812 465081 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :spammers can freely choose where to put the computers that run stuff, and that makes power cheap
< 1762128854 547691 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or steal them, so that they aren't paying for the power
< 1762128926 602341 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it a common thing with wikimedia? wikipedia? i don't think i've ever seen spam in wikimedia sites...
< 1762128970 901629 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :afaik the most painful these in recent years is scrapping
< 1762129076 934080 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikipedia has a very good spam filter
< 1762129132 679225 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a lot of attempts to spam on it, but it's hard to automate because as soon as the admins notice patterns in the spam they put in a rule to prevent that specific pattern
< 1762129218 964635 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, i guess
> 1762129525 766348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rail (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167364&oldid=167363 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1888) 10Just writing words like it's nanowrimo again. I have not tested any of this; I'm just whipping out the code from memory. Yes, yes! You're the man now, dog!
< 1762129568 518379 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i really like that page with that jit. it also links here https://code.google.com/archive/p/esotope-bfc/wikis/Comparison.wiki , which is interesting and i didn't know of it. currently my interpreter does everything upto and including "simple loops" (my linked bf2c.sh does those too, but not super efficiently)
< 1762129607 425665 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(still proud of what it can do in 1k though :) )
< 1762129684 864593 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i've seen quite a few bf pages, but i don't think any of them led me either to Laurent's page or that google code page
< 1762129696 373229 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks again
< 1762129771 822870 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: No worries. Eventually you can tackle Lost Kingdom!
< 1762129800 814938 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, all of my interpreters could tackle that from v0.00001 :)
< 1762129820 977856 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nice. Lots of interpreters crash on that one.
< 1762129833 738328 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :including the 4 lines sh code i posted literally here in irc :)
< 1762129848 291168 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1762129909 194983 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can jit it too: bf2c.sh < LostKingdom.b | tcc -run - /dev/tty   (or "con" on windows)
< 1762130013 41858 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but not in the 4 lines sh code, because it doesn't take an infile argument, but recent versions of tcc support custom stdin with "tcc --rstdin /dev/tty -run -", because i added it myself few days ago to tcc mob)
< 1762130312 902707 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should respect tcc more. I don't really use it much because I'm not a big C fan.
< 1762130400 477028 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tcc is great.
< 1762130437 60144 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :see, playing with bf improves tcc :)
> 1762130448 366196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rail (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167365&oldid=167364 5* 03Corbin 5* (+876) 10Interleaved rails and a bit of extra detail.
< 1762130559 763834 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Also, I hadn't seen that comparison page before, and the notation there is giving me ideas about how to improve https://esolangs.org/wiki/Algebraic_Brainfuck
< 1762130680 709934 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which comparison page? Laurent's?
< 1762130727 941307 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that's your link...)
< 1762130792 454911 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Google Code page.
> 1762130813 280235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Algebraic Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167366&oldid=163679 5* 03Corbin 5* (+26) 10/* Computability */ Bluelink.
< 1762130877 25908 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, i don't think i see comparisons there? (otehr than maybe mentioning which interpreters implement which optimizations?) but it does mention optimizations i didn't think of, which would feel unfair to implement, but that won't stop me ;)
< 1762130909 906819 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was just going off the URL, that's all.
< 1762130922 678595 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it's good. very nice.
< 1762130973 578825 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :FWIW all I'm seeing is a monoid; the way that I currently optimize BF is merely by canonicalizing that monoid. I don't really have a high-minded approach to optimization.
< 1762131045 608025 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't know what a monoid is, and it feels like i'm missing out on an important high level concept
< 1762131101 841721 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: remind me, is your interpreter using any 3rd party jit?
< 1762131116 868761 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other than rpython itself)
< 1762131142 330852 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like gnu Lightning or other assemblers?
< 1762131165 798419 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A monoid is an associative binary operation along with a unit. Examples include string concatenation (with the empty string) and addition of natural numbers (with zero). They show up whenever we have a list of things; lists are "free" monoids, which just means that they are monoids regardless of what type they contain.
< 1762131221 182343 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :feels like lisp
< 1762131226 681615 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except higher level :)
< 1762131226 962934 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Nope. RPython has its own backend. I mean, it does use libffi, which I think of as a sort of runtime assembler, but RPython does have all the nasty parts you'd expect, e.g. https://github.com/pypy/pypy/tree/main/rpython/jit/backend/x86
< 1762131227 558482 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like defining this sort of mathematical structure by showing the rules it has with a familiar example
< 1762131252 137504 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. monoids have 0 + x = x, x + 0 = x, (x + y) + z = x + (y + z) for some reasonable definition of + and 0
< 1762131265 874700 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those are the only rules, so the operation doesn't have to act like + and 0 in other respects
< 1762131308 678770 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We have a good wiki page, [[monoid]]. They're too common to not talk about. But programmers haven't historically had access to algebraic laws, so they haven't been able to prove that their binary operations are associative.
< 1762131311 438114 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't quite mean "defining" but "explaining")
< 1762131323 162670 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah, of course it does, but your code is "normal" python which gets the benefit of running on top of rpython, just like c code benefits from good compiler optimizations, right?
< 1762131365 622722 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: That's the idea! In practice, RPython-flavored Python has an object model somewhat like Java, but honestly more like OCaml than anything else I've used.
< 1762131370 286410 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(unlike, for instance, c code which uses Lightning)
< 1762131417 699380 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :You have full access to Python 2.7 metaprogramming, *once*, when your app is imported into memory. Then the toolchain traces your in-memory compiled program to figure out what it actually does, and compiles those traces to C instead of your original code.
< 1762131436 425946 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's nice. i like that approach best ("normal" code in an efficient platform)
< 1762131518 858591 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bf.py doesn't really do much with that. Cammy's core interpreter uses metaprogramming to generate a bunch of optimized bytecodes and do some OCaml-module-style codegen for classes. Monte's interpreter has a full-blown nanopass infrastructure, macros for I/O and promises, template classes, and all sorts of weird FFI.
< 1762131539 464598 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: korvo: thanks for the monoids info, i'll look into the esolangs page (or elsewhere) later. cheers.
< 1762131554 962064 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries! Welcome to abstract algebra. It's fun times.
< 1762131573 234551 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I learned group theory in order to do cryptography. I envy folks who get to do it just for fun or even just for discrete-maths credit.)
< 1762131637 603211 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i implemented a pretty decent JS Promise, conforming to CommonJS 1.1.1 spec... (can be used in mpv js code - which i maintain)
< 1762131719 648427 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, never got too much into math in uni or later, beyond the basic stuff, though CS basic math is a bit more than a degree in literature :)
< 1762131747 458697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rad. When I did Monte, I was using E's mechanism, copying the pretty pictures at http://www.erights.org/elib/concurrency/refmech.html and now I'm looking at those once again for Vixen. Some things never change.
< 1762131760 381581 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah, this channel sometimes does category theory for some reason
< 1762131767 797972 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's me, I'm the reason.
< 1762131785 982591 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1762131793 623229 :ajal!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1762131871 500618 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a problem where I look at a graph and I see a category. Or I look at a monoid and I see a category. I see two objects and I think "I could put an arrow on that"
< 1762131891 305574 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1762132167 655327 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i really like promises https://github.com/avih/nopromise/blob/master/nopromise.js
< 1762132181 449245 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh.. https://github.com/avih/nopromise
< 1762132239 424110 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a pico version too
< 1762132340 596162 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think all mathematicians do that sometimes, just with different tools that they're familiar with, not category theory in particular
< 1762132414 341556 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes you know a deep theory that feels like it explains the simple proof better than the more elementary phrasing
> 1762132629 610502 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rail (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167367&oldid=167365 5* 03Corbin 5* (+507) 10Explain padding better. Padding is actually really important for small algorithms since [<<] gets really big if we have to add error handling or location detection.
< 1762132712 114849 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for me one of these things is that compactness of first order logic shows that if you can prove that no infinite structure satisfies some Ramsey-like restrictions then there's an upper bound for how big finite objects satisfy it. it turns out that this doesn't actually get you any new results, because the proofs for those Ramsey-like theorems are always already explicit enough to give an upper bound, so 
< 1762132718 122498 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is at best a guide for what kind of proof you should be looking for.
< 1762132754 971446 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Nice. Monte's version is a great example of the warning, "You can write Java in any language." https://github.com/monte-language/typhon/blob/master/typhon/objects/refs.py
< 1762132790 505919 :ais523!~ais523@31.94.2.72 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1762132795 280366 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(looking)
< 1762132865 943364 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I like that. Ramsey intuition is hard to get going in general. I know the basic party-trick version, which is just finite Ramsey's theorem for graphs, but I don't have the intuition for how it connects to (logical) compactness.
< 1762132867 599538 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not small... (i think
< 1762132868 957262 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1762132954 237170 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like if the task is to prove that every infinite string of a three-letter alphabet has two adjacent copies of some string as an infix then you know in advance that you'll be proving that a long enough string has such an infix
< 1762132979 53108 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: it's been a while since i use java. what do you consider "java-ism"? extensive use of OO code, methods and classes?
< 1762132985 857092 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :used*
< 1762133020 504174 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this particular case the upper bound for the length is actually pretty small, something between 10 and 20, but of course that's not always the case, for some Ramsey results your proof will give a huge overkill upper bound and it's hard to guess even what order of magnitude you can improve the bound to
< 1762133021 62166 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Oh! I know the cringiest example. When I think of a hypergraph, I think of a category. So I once blurted out that categories were how to describe an object graph in a certain sort of actor model. I *did* use this to prove that any Hewitt actor model is Cartesian closed and thus a lambda calculus, so it saw some use, but it's very dorky.
< 1762133060 332156 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i never liked it too much TBH. it works, but it requires too much infrastructure for my taste)
< 1762133082 611502 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Yeah. Moreover, the use of lots of classes to solve the Expression Problem. In compilers, this is the problem of having N different behaviors and M different AST nodes; we need N × M different code clauses to handle them all. Here, the AST is all the possible states of a promise, and I basically wrote one method/behavior.
< 1762133135 970239 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right. i think c++ code can suffer too from that, but i'm not very experienced in it
< 1762133213 340653 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sounds nice and fun (the AST promise thing)
< 1762133224 14761 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Lots of corporate C++ especially, particularly backend and gamedev stuff. I worked at Google for a bit and there was very little difference between internal C++, Java, and Python code. When Go was introduced, people started writing Go with that flavor too.
< 1762133264 893327 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1762133285 148037 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can get the dev out of X, but not the X out of the dev :)
< 1762133349 34282 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i played with go a bit. it's nice. but then again, it's pike...
< 1762133393 634336 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(not dart though)
> 1762133757 70580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rail (data structure)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167368&oldid=167367 5* 03Corbin 5* (+602) 10/* Algorithms */ Can't have push without pop. Also use semicolons for comments instead of commas!
< 1762140037 126945 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have not used Java much, and not at all recently, but I think it is excessively object oriented programming. OOP is good for some things but Java is too excessive OOP, I think.
> 1762140488 966859 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167369&oldid=167270 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+30) 10
> 1762140870 999992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167370&oldid=167369 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+93) 10
< 1762141244 259838 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: i think that's an RC1 https://0x0.st/KL4p.txt
< 1762141300 301524 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(fit limiting the #include <fcntl> to windows-only if binary IO is enabled)
< 1762141314 125467 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :.h
< 1762141409 714558 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(otherwise only the comment is modified)
< 1762141464 724527 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i did have to remove one newline though, but it's not too bad.
< 1762141475 818740 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's exactly 1024 :)
< 1762141630 204488 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, also modified the unbound behavior to double the memory size instead of adding fixed 256 bytes. now it's symmetric, and saved two bytes :)
> 1762143344 79533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167371&oldid=167273 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+41) 10
> 1762143486 670847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167372&oldid=167371 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-14) 10/* Operators */
< 1762143573 276140 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1762144416 526620 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Can JIT be effective for emulating instruction sets that have tagged memory?
> 1762145358 217512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167373&oldid=167372 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Examples */
> 1762145504 68727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167374&oldid=167373 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+198) 10/* Full description */
> 1762145515 905674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167375&oldid=167374 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10/* Examples */
< 1762146249 595113 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1762149492 263996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Baulk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167376&oldid=167375 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-36) 10/* Full description */
> 1762149745 740290 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167377&oldid=166735 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+8) 10Assembly change
> 1762149764 21418 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CARP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167378&oldid=167377 5* 03TheCanon2 5* (+1) 10typo
< 1762153589 689821 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@wilsonb.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1762153795 579528 :xelxebar!~xelxebar@42.203.199.104.bc.googleusercontent.com JOIN #esolangs xelxebar :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1762154828 354461 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1762156986 908997 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762157085 204308 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762157208 411526 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1762157723 925437 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1762160684 57531 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762160809 447786 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1762162199 488238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1762162281 110358 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
> 1762163457 443789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167379&oldid=167361 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+831) 10/* User:Esolangist's attempts */
< 1762163595 311035 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^help
< 1762163595 380186 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
< 1762163636 299717 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (Hello, world!)S
< 1762163636 351204 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, world!
< 1762163823 632983 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (Hello, world!)a(S)*^
< 1762163823 682473 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, world!
< 1762163959 887121 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf -[>+<-----]>+.
< 1762163959 956124 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :4
< 1762164187 268515 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>.+.>++++++++[>++++<-]>+.
< 1762164187 340084 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :HI!
< 1762164883 22030 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :g'day
< 1762165197 599395 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1762165224 194840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167380&oldid=167349 5* 03Ais523 5* (+166) 10/* Name */ because cell updates are irreversible
< 1762166109 562976 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :^egel 42
< 1762166116 881830 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :boo
< 1762166638 828639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot only knows two programming languages (technically 3 but only the owner gets to run raw Funge code because that could break the sandbox)
< 1762166640 596696 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: madam president, president-in-office of the council on his first appearance. if i am not trying to play its part in this debate. there are still some disturbing grey areas. first, the congolese government continues to block the commission and, indeed, is another issue that the council is preparing to double the resources for this programme will mark a new page in the construction of the europe of networking which you de
< 1762166949 812984 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. HackEso knows other languages, and at one point I considered setting up an egel interpreter but I didn't finish. 
< 1762166961 513811 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's a sandbox so if you want you can set up an egel interpreter on it
> 1762168210 992801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167381&oldid=167379 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+697) 10/* User:Esolangist's attempts */
< 1762168453 562378 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-37-198.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1762170722 986508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotato14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167382 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+1427) 10Created page with "Rotato, or Rotato Potato is a [[turning tarpit]] by [[User:Esolangist]].  Note from creator: I'm not sure that this is Turing Complete, so would this just be a "turning esolang"? ==Commands (and the wheel)== ===Commands=== <pre> > rotates the wheel right (current 
> 1762171167 25277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Esolangist alt 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Brainturn wheel.png10]]"
> 1762171781 638698 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainturn14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167384 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+562) 10Created page with "Brainturn is a [[turning tarpit]] by [[User:Esolangist]]. It is a [[BF]] derivative aswell. ==Commands== [[File:Brainturn wheel.png|thumb|The wheel. It starts at +]] <pre> +  rotate the wheel left, moving the "wheel pointer" to the right -  rotate the wheel righ
> 1762171800 488823 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainturn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167385&oldid=167384 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+1) 10/* Hello world */
< 1762172268 110388 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
< 1762175102 679814 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762175219 704831 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1762175536 410191 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is nobody editing pages on the wiki
< 1762175566 787853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there were edits earlier
< 1762175577 843551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's just that most people are doing other things atm
< 1762175604 660565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact you left this channel a minute before an edit and joined 7 minutes afterwards
> 1762175734 791615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RaiseAfloppaFan's Stupid Idea 0/Esolangist14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167386&oldid=167260 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+71) 10
< 1762176336 927323 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1762181484 439424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167387&oldid=166959 5* 03H33T33 5* (+118) 10
> 1762181855 442919 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167388&oldid=167387 5* 03H33T33 5* (+364) 10
> 1762181977 361634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167389&oldid=167388 5* 03H33T33 5* (-54) 10
< 1762182291 110380 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
> 1762182477 617185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unicoding14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167390&oldid=158883 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+252) 10/* idea */ new section
> 1762182580 441499 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Unicoding14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167391&oldid=167390 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+125) 10/* idea */
< 1762182758 691293 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangist: You keep leaving in-between your edits and not seeing the notifications from other users also editing.
< 1762182769 358022 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1762183453 110349 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] esolangist
> 1762184049 894474 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnicodeLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167392 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+633) 10Created page with "Welcome to UnicodeLang. You are free to add commands. ==Rules== # No joke commands like " solves the halting problem if the universe is in a black hole" # Go in order of Unicode # Make a new section every time you reach a new Unicode block. # Have fun! ==Commands=
> 1762184168 952209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:CollaborativePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167393&oldid=164612 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+148) 10
> 1762184549 128556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Flashgutten14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167394&oldid=163324 5* 03Flashgutten 5* (+30) 10/* Code Code Code Code */
< 1762184915 166797 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[[User:CollaborativePL]] is a joke user created just to justify the user page. I'm going to move it to main.
> 1762184959 570150 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Corbin 5*  10moved [[02User:CollaborativePL10]] to [[CollaborativePL]]: Languages go in the main namespace.
< 1762185000 184621 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: ah. nevermind. egel is too hard to compile anyway
< 1762185020 838096 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1762185212 100957 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
> 1762185314 176154 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167397&oldid=150847 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+246) 10
< 1762185365 324701 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sprout: it's not that hard to compile, and HackEso has a working C++ compiler. IIRC I did manage to compile it, but then I didn't install because I found that I'd need to modify the interpreter or add a wrapper around it to make it more suitable for the bot, as in some combination of (1) not print prompts in non-interactive mode, (2) import
< 1762185365 825316 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :libraries automatically, (3) take egel commands from command-line or standard input, (4) automatically exit when the script completes, (5) maybe print result values automatically. I don't remember which ones of these the interpreter didn't know out of box, but it was more than one and eventually I was not interested enough.
< 1762185409 744597 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^ul (Hello, world!)S
< 1762185409 792047 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello, world!
< 1762185411 903679 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially since you were already running a dedicated IRC bot evaluating egel
< 1762185499 65862 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's probably something about this in the logs
> 1762185557 642389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:CollaborativePL10]]": not a user page, and not created by the relevant user
< 1762185645 46266 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the logs suggest that I also had to patch out references to libicu
< 1762185657 523847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am wondering whether we should ban "readers edit in the commands" language pages because a) the language doesn't actually exist at the time they're created, b) they never seem to lead to an interesting language, c) they're conceptually all duplicates of each other
< 1762185688 48500 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1762185694 674472 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I made it even harder to compile since that by adding a aot phase
> 1762185695 162843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167398&oldid=167397 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+450) 10/* ULTRA IMPORTANT!!! */ context
< 1762185703 430065 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :*since then
< 1762185707 868158 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does "aot" mean?
< 1762185716 789700 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahead of time
< 1762185744 427407 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :not a jit but an ahead of time phase
< 1762185757 563579 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2020-02.html#ltH shows where I used the standalone irc bot that you ran
< 1762185777 679491 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :some binding to liblightning that may or may not ship with your os
< 1762185876 639773 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for some libraries if they are helpful for some on topic experiments and are available from the distribution that HackEso's inside is using, you can just ask fizzie to install the library, because he has admin rights to the machine
< 1762185893 581870 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've done that with some library earlier, I'm not sure which one, probably libperl-date-manip
< 1762185956 398800 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :meh. egel is a succesful experiment with regard to trying out a different operational semantics but a failure as a language
< 1762186007 111962 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the interpreter just kinda stuck after I showed the evaluation mechanism works
< 1762186026 933184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` rustc --version
< 1762186028 181896 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: rustc: command not found
< 1762186067 693492 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` gcc --version
< 1762186069 262619 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :gcc (Debian 8.3.0-6) 8.3.0 \ Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions.  There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
> 1762186154 70132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry/Discussion14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167399&oldid=167398 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+10) 10/* ULTRA IMPORTANT!!! */ clarification
< 1762186209 622275 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :debian would make stuff hard. I got too used to fedora that just ships with all dependencies out of the box
< 1762186218 796220 :sprout!~sprout@84-80-106-227.fixed.kpn.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah well
< 1762186245 825235 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Also (d) evidence suggests that they will end up like Quorum: basically like Java or PHP or some other boring average object model that supports bland paradigms at best. Ironically, I get to cite Quorum's own research on this; they were trying to blend all colors and came up with mud.
< 1762186259 170967 :esolangist!~esolangis@194.207.212.189 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1762186273 527275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: actually they more often end up like HQ9+
< 1762186276 139475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangist: ^^^ If you haven't seen it, Lucky 10000 for the Quorum programming language. It's an excellent example of existing mostly as a warning to other language designers.
< 1762186295 859194 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you are encouraging people to add commands to a language without defining a data model, a common outcome is that the language doesn't have one
< 1762186311 322860 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, sure. But that's because none of the editing users actually want to *use* the language. If they have to use it and not merely write graffiti on a wall then they'll come up with something insipid instead.
< 1762186544 75219 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At any rate, I think that forbidding user-edited languages makes a lot of sense from the angle that the wiki isn't a chat service.
< 1762186585 184223 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, last I checked there was no rust installed, not even the runtime libraries, so I didn't manage to compile a rust program and upload a binary. what I can do is both compile a C++ program on HackEso and run it there, or compile a C++ program locally and upload the binary to HackEso and run it there.
< 1762186670 501857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm thinking about how often my languages aren't "about" their commands, and may not have distinct commands at all
< 1762186707 640265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model sort-of does when viewed as a language, but only for I/O and it isn't an essential (or even commonly implemented) part of the language and isn't part of the underlying compuational model
< 1762186709 413077 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for a language where any user can define commands, we have a few IRC bots that are like that (HackEso, perlbot, and to a minor extent lambdabot and jevalbot but all commands in those are temporary), as well as Wikiplia, but what's common in these is that there's an implementation and you define commands by implementing them rather than by just
< 1762186709 912615 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :editing documentation\
< 1762186733 83380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, things like Advance The Wheel! heavily care about their commands (and for ATW!, even which order they're in) but most of my languages aren't like that
< 1762186749 195417 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Cammy (and an undocumented relative, Culex, not really worth sharing) started out without any data-manipulation commands; they only acted as pipelines which shuffled around data within some data structure. Culex started as a better notation for permutations IIRC.
< 1762186754 978560 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1762186767 35712 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think a few I've defined commands in esolangs by just suggesting a command to the original maintainer and they implemented it
< 1762186848 310105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and now I'm thinking about things like the I/D machine and Brainpocalypse II which do clearly have commands, but what those commands are is a matter of opinion/viewpoint
< 1762186916 565478 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, the I/D machine gives a really good viewpoint of the issue: if a language has two commands and neither takes arguments, you can run-length-encode it to get a language with one command with an nonnegative-integer argument
< 1762187079 148515 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I/D machine is minimal enough that it would turn to a very different language if you added more commands into it
< 1762187161 294236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1762187176 512879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, well, the lack of commands is the point, it wouldn't be interesting if it had more
< 1762187253 269071 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: Oh, interesting. Maybe it's related to the extensible-language movement?
< 1762187288 533654 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes. for some languages like Egel you can add a library with new functions, implemented in either egel or native code
< 1762187304 427420 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what is related to the extensible-langauge movement? I don't understand your question
> 1762187508 744709 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167400&oldid=166111 5* 03TheBigH 5* (+595) 10Did some fixing on the page
> 1762187539 254951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167401&oldid=167381 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+183) 10/* User:Esolangist's attempts */
> 1762187560 762763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167402&oldid=167401 5* 03Esolangist 5* (+2) 10/* Step 1: Randomization is key */
< 1762188267 209287 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I tried looking at Quorum but couldn't figure out how it works from the documentation
< 1762188291 63298 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spruit: in the logs, https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2020-02.html#lMhb is where I start to experiment with compiling egel for HackEso
< 1762188292 337466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it looks somewhat like Java with differently spelled keywords, but the docs weren't nearly clear enough to let me figure out how the class system works
< 1762188306 31190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. it mentioned that classes can be instantiated but doesn't explain what that does
< 1762188343 141000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I can't figure out whether its class variables are the equivalent of a Java static field or a Java instance field or something else
< 1762188444 138886 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's this and why is it not on the wiki?
< 1762188444 517903 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: Oh, sorry, I didn't really have a complete thought there. The idea of a user editing the language only in a constrained manner, it reminds me of extensible languages or languages with compiler plugins.
< 1762188495 744618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: if you're talking about Quorum I don't think it's an esolang, except possibly by accidenet
< 1762188521 750269 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: https://quorumlanguage.com/ Quorum is a language developed entirely from empirical evidence. Features and changes are done by preregistering psychology experiments, testing different versions of the language with students, and considering the measured effect.
< 1762188553 601190 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the docs seem to be (intentionally?) hiding a lot of details
< 1762188564 151772 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: PHP's object model is the closest fit that I know of. Static fields are just instance fields that promise not to be modified, I think.
< 1762188572 162449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had to experiment with their interpreter just to determine that "number" was actually a double rather than an arbitrary-precision float
< 1762188585 685271 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that's more or less how Wikiplia works: there's a core language that you cannot change, but there's a compiler that compiles from a slightly higher level language into the core language and users can edit that. whereas HackEso runs x86_6 linux userspace and you can upload compilers that compile into that; perlbot runs perl and buubot3 macros
< 1762188586 185272 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you can make definitions using buubot3 macros; lambdabot runs Haskell and you can upload definitions; jevalbot runs J the APL-like and you can upload definitions
< 1762188586 222902 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Java static fields can be modified, though
< 1762188609 94611 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh, I'm thinking of Java `final`, whoops. I think both PHP and Quorum use `final` too?
< 1762188625 888867 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that sounds like a crazy premise
< 1762188637 224394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't find any final in the docs I read – but the Quorum docs are terrible so that doesn't mean it doesn't support it
< 1762188670 155517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: I've looked at research into keyword names that are understandable for both programmers and non-programmers
< 1762188684 333976 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wob_jonas: For sure. I have a lot of contempt for their underlying metaphysics, but in terms of PLT it's just bland. No new ideas, no interesting approaches to computation, just a kind of tired Sisyphean retread of the worst parts of Pascal's design philosophy.
< 1762188698 900384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think they came up with "repeat" for loops as the only keyword that both groups were comfortable with (although I don't think this got as far as determining what sort of loop it was)
< 1762188748 143216 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I don't really like projects that attempt to twist metaphysics to the point that physics breaks. Quorum ignores how computers work. Dynamicland's another good example; I should stub a page on it if I can keep my cool.)
< 1762188904 588723 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1762189486 103088 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1762189530 320735 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762189621 43218 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello peers(is that a valid term? oh well)
< 1762189654 202648 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1762189886 345380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I think it's valid but people don't normally use it in that context
< 1762189897 525054 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: thanks!
< 1762190370 697787 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could I perhaps ask for some help formalizing a command?
< 1762190421 759901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can say what you're stuck on and see if anyone responds
< 1762190436 679683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm not sure whether I'm personally up to it right now
< 1762190463 647452 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wanst asking anyone particular, I was just wondering if it was appropriate for this channel
< 1762190551 240986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, this channel's about esolangs and related discussion, so it would be on-topic at least (and it is hard to know whether or not anyone will be interested in responding on any given topic)
< 1762190591 303171 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1762190669 380374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: Don't ask to ask; just ask.
< 1762190726 597876 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1762191405 101636 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.184.99.184 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1762191658 443993 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:6ca3:baf2:b6ce:6247 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1762192228 769340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self++14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167403&oldid=167389 5* 03H33T33 5* (+79) 10
< 1762192405 373024 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: fungot prefers to call them "hon. and learned friend the member for [district represented]" or "hon. and learned friend the minister for [department name]"
< 1762192406 157186 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: mr president, mr commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, but sometimes things are very difficult to establish these preconditions together in order to achieve them money is needed; the aid conference was successful but more is needed alongside it. it is still deficient. however, the very small budget we are debating whether we can use the facility or not.
< 1762192810 315252 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: In the textual descriptions for algorithms in TAOCP, Knuth mostly uses if-goto constructs with multiple different keywords for goto including "go to", "go back to", "return to", "repeat" (for going to the same step where you are), sometimes followed by " step". But there are also inline loops within one step.
< 1762192937 839085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have a suspicion that Knuth wrote the algorithms in a way that would map onto asm easily, due to caring about the efficiency of the resulting machine code
< 1762192958 233423 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and there are FORTRAN-like counted loops which involve a come-from after a step, as in "C3. Perform step C4, for j = i - 1, i - 2, ..., 1."
< 1762192981 100935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't Shakespeare's gotos change form depending on whether they jump forwards or backwards?
< 1762192993 309442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: does C4 run on its own after that? or not?
< 1762192994 540675 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, I was thinking of Chef's loops
< 1762193014 129144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember this being a big problem for Funge-98's y instruction
< 1762193022 563562 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no, but that's because the previous line says "C2. Perform step C3, for i = N, N-1, ..., 2; then terminate the algorithm."
< 1762193036 37491 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is algorithm 5.2.C 
< 1762193049 125338 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is a loop, and you write the loop body after the instruction, but after y runs normally the loop body is the next thing in the path of execution so it gets run to
< 1762193063 290636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(except if the argument to y is 0, when it gets skipped for some reason – y is weird)
< 1762193070 777197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err. is this k rather than y?
< 1762193074 494692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my befunge is rusty
< 1762193157 46017 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the next algorithm has a step saying "D2. Perform step D3 for 1 ≤ j ≤ N; then go to step D4." so it looks like it just avoids fallthroughs after multi-line loops
< 1762193390 258758 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also "S1. Perform steps S2 through S5 for j = 2, 3, ..., N; then terminate the algorithm." so this definitely looks like FORTRAN loops that come from after the last step of the loop body 
< 1762193447 39222 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how prevalent comefrom-style loops are nowadays
< 1762193461 846040 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even in non-programming contexts
< 1762193513 157910 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the non-programming contexts mostly don't use line labels
< 1762193580 820589 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, they use <ol>-style lists fairly often, which come with built in list item labels to refer to
< 1762193918 991468 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what was the Smalltalk-like esolang on the esowiki where when you create an object you give the name but not value of its instance variables and it copies the value from somewhere... maybe from the lexical environment or from self in the creating context
< 1762193941 61035 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it uses identifiers that are one-character long only
< 1762194038 358044 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also many but not all keywords and identifiers are non-ascii
< 1762194102 784532 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:89c3:e50e:fb04:c03c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1762194133 22364 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I found it, it's https://esolangs.org/wiki/SCOOP
> 1762194373 587631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:B jonas/List14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167404&oldid=159727 5* 03B jonas 5* (+160) 10[[SCOOP]]
< 1762194496 518782 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1762195498 404724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF instruction minimalization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167405&oldid=167402 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+3) 10Esolangist alt
> 1762195756 312173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist/personal talk page14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167406&oldid=167122 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+202) 10Esolangist alt
> 1762195912 509495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rotato14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167407&oldid=167382 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+159) 10Esolangist alt
< 1762197316 131825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1762201455 177712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist/Template:EsolangistsSignature14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167408 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+174) 10Created page with "<span style="background-color:default;color:blue;">[[User:Esolangist|esolangist]]</span> | [[User talk:Esolangist|do you want to talk to me?]] | it's {{{Time}}} on {{{Date}}}"
> 1762202651 239392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07What are the commands14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167409 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+652) 10Esolangist alt
> 1762203501 502969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-reproducing object14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167410 5* 03Corbin 5* (+2130) 10Stub a GEB concept.
> 1762204149 169486 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07InterpretIt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=167411 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+1156) 10Esolangist alt
> 1762204365 277689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167412&oldid=167326 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-1199) 10
> 1762204506 773437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Self-reproducing object14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167413&oldid=167410 5* 03Corbin 5* (+570) 10Redlink for ganguines.
> 1762204914 159774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167414&oldid=160700 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+3) 10/* How to write an error quine */ better first and last step
< 1762205008 540307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, that's good enough for now. I also have a paper by Byrd et al. that shows how to use relational languages like miniKanren to generate quines, twines, thrines, etc. Not sure how to integrate that yet. Also have to write the ganguine article.
< 1762205240 270402 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which esolangs use character sets which are not compatible with Unicode, ASCII, EBCDIC, Morse code, Baudot code, and punch cards?
< 1762205952 993844 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that mostly sounds like esolangs whose input isn't characters, like Piet or efghij
< 1762206062 281842 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, although I did not mean that, since pictures and that other stuff are not character sets.
< 1762206097 313763 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: unless you're unsatisfied with the mapping of the VIC-20 or PET's character sets to Unicode, which wouldn't be too unreasonable, in which case VIC-20 BASIC or PET BASIC, except those don't count as esoteric
< 1762206238 425349 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right, my SHARP EL-5120 calculator's BASIC-like language. it doesn't have a tape or magnetic card reader accessory, so there's no mapping of its character set to anything tangible, the characters only exist as bytes in its RAM and many of them encode a whole keyword like cos⁻¹ or GOSUB, so they aren't technically compatible with anything else
< 1762206294 326381 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this probably applies to some microcomputer BASICs too, the ones that don't parse keywords from letter sequences but only have keywords as a single character and only show them as multiple letters when displayed
< 1762206305 957591 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to enter them as one character, usually with a modifier key
< 1762206358 343704 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are two different keyboard layouts and possibly two different character sets, one for BASIC statements (at the start of a line or after a colon) and one everywhere else, the characteristic example being on the ZX Spectrum
< 1762206377 455984 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you count these?
< 1762206407 678031 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, those would count.
< 1762206459 277319 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Although not quite in the way I meant, they still count in a somewhat different way.)
< 1762206496 55872 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they have a custom internal characters set (or possibly more than one) that encodes those characters as one byte (or possibly a few bytes)
< 1762206624 381672 :b_jonas!~x@88.87.242.184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and of course there are all sorts of CPU-ran machine code where the program is encoded as bytes (or words of some size) and aren't identified with any character set
< 1762207673 333129 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am unsatisfied with the mapping of any character set to Unicode (including Unicode itself, due to various things it does), but some are perhaps less objectionable to others (e.g. possibly the mappings from ISO 8859).
< 1762207738 540485 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :At best, it might be used for approximation of character conversion when you want to display text that you do not have the appropriate fonts for that character set or if you need to convert between character sets but cannot do so directly for whatever reason; even then, it is not really best way to do it but can often provide an approximation which might or might not be suitable depending on your intention.
> 1762207782 947144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Burn14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167415&oldid=167380 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+532) 10/* Thoughts on burn */
> 1762207901 217649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167416&oldid=167265 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+565) 10
> 1762208283 739817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HolyFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=167417&oldid=165804 5* 03WebNiko 5* (+1057) 10
< 1762211976 920584 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:89c3:e50e:fb04:c03c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1762212341 459428 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname