> 1763684461 110542 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168823&oldid=164449 5* 03None1 5* (+598) 10/* Main table */  Add [[Readable]]
< 1763684585 967205 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1763684591 332943 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EsoInterpreters14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168824&oldid=168823 5* 03None1 5* (-13) 10Change link after the TOC was updated
> 1763687007 14957 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainyay14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168825&oldid=168737 5* 03PhiPhiPHipHi2.0 5* (+19) 10
< 1763688537 998337 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-154-63.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1763689133 899614 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168826&oldid=168821 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1698) 10new type + definitions
< 1763689498 242164 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a0a-a543-4fd6-0-cea6-47aa-79ec-1e88.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1763692343 455781 :Thelie!~Thelie@2a0a-a543-4fd6-0-cea6-47aa-79ec-1e88.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1763697369 688318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:H33T3314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168827&oldid=168166 5* 03H33T33 5* (+12) 10
> 1763697871 899106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168828&oldid=168705 5* 03H33T33 5* (+1305) 10
> 1763697894 164422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Topple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168829&oldid=154514 5* 03H33T33 5* (-298) 10Blanked the page
< 1763703668 754188 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1763706061 876610 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Quit: brb
< 1763706170 88330 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ZZT allows a program to contain multiple same labels, in which case only the first one is effective, but #ZAP will comment out the first one, making the next one effective; #RESTORE will uncomment all of them of the specified name.
< 1763706296 70581 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :MegaZeux, ZZ Zero, and Super ZZ Zero inherit that feature, although Super ZZ Zero adds some more stuff, such as the possibility for each instance of a label to have a numeric value associated with it, and the ability to read and modify the value associated with the first unzapped label with a specified name.
< 1763706850 409619 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1763710096 447539 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(But, it does not have the "ALTER X TO PROCEED TO Y" like COBOL has)
< 1763710311 634136 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This use of numeric storage labels might be used like the DATA command in BASIC, although the data can be changed and you can have multiple lists of data to read at once with different label names; and these labels can still be used as branch targets and message targets too, like any other labels do.)
> 1763711922 480781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168830&oldid=146610 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+1500) 10
> 1763714124 624508 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07,(*+)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168831&oldid=167691 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+29) 10
< 1763714769 43323 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1763714932 46386 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1763716070 869658 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Atamagaokashii14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168832&oldid=168700 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-268) 10/* Etymology */ Cleaned up this section because it's so trash
> 1763717367 529563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plushie-incomplete14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168833&oldid=168763 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717380 88305 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!itoe14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168834&oldid=168760 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717392 201043 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0710014]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168835&oldid=168722 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
< 1763717400 549803 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+deb11u1 - https://znc.in
> 1763717413 133975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainbonk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168836&oldid=168803 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717426 518699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Egg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168837&oldid=168773 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717440 851726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ntsomgivl14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168838&oldid=168806 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
< 1763717454 550682 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo
> 1763717454 865185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nullinullinull14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168839&oldid=168766 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717473 896716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168840&oldid=168786 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763717491 802400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168841&oldid=168713 5* 03None1 5* (-34) 10Remove non-existent category
> 1763718861 262519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Atamagaokashii14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168842&oldid=168832 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+33) 10the name is a romanization of a japanese word so the japanese word is also a valid name, if not the true name
> 1763719887 709173 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168843&oldid=168689 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+248) 10Add Redstoneboi introduction
> 1763720754 510260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168844&oldid=168580 5* 03None1 5* (+621) 10
> 1763720780 774558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168845&oldid=168844 5* 03None1 5* (-1215) 10
> 1763720820 697513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainterpart14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168846 5* 03None1 5* (+1347) 10Created page with " {{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[brainfuck]]|f=the counterpart of [[brainfuck]] without comments}}  ==Definitions== Define the ''brainfuck charset'' (BC for short) as {{cd|+,-.<>[]}}.  Define the ''non-brainfuck charset'' (NBC for short) as the charset which contains charact
> 1763720828 931604 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainterpart14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168847&oldid=168846 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
> 1763720851 321255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168848&oldid=168818 5* 03None1 5* (+19) 10/* B */
> 1763720891 142559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168849&oldid=168615 5* 03None1 5* (+57) 10
< 1763721114 635998 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1763721130 771490 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1763721155 604499 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
> 1763721252 669932 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168850&oldid=154427 5* 03None1 5* (+363) 10/* Commands */
> 1763721271 65137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168851&oldid=141643 5* 03None1 5* (+285) 10/* Float numbers */
< 1763721378 550525 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1763721728 908022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07oxck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168852&oldid=168031 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+31) 10/* other */
> 1763721854 111184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SletScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168853&oldid=168432 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+877) 10/* brainfuck interpreter */
> 1763722520 802954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SletScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168854&oldid=168853 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+145) 10numeric mode
< 1763723046 954088 :svm!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1763723198 606398 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1763723580 637671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Redstoneboi14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168855 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+11) 10Created page with "i exist now"
> 1763725075 469863 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SletScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168856&oldid=168854 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+2101) 10/* Examples */
> 1763725143 319000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SletScript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168857&oldid=168856 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (+9) 10add link to redstoneboi userpage
< 1763725643 237040 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1763725804 783836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07SletScript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168858&oldid=168857 5* 03Redstoneboi 5* (-6) 10separate brainfuck declaration and usage
< 1763727227 101552 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1763727618 241679 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's say I want to define tokenizing rules for an esoteric language. for example, if the source code says 'one+two three' it'll be split to four words, 'one' then '+' then 'two' then 'three', because letters are sticky and stick to longer words, '+' is a loner character that doesn't stick to anything, and the space ' ' is a comment that can
< 1763727618 741552 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :separate words but disappears from the word stream otherwise. so far so good.
< 1763727860 708275 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but suppose that I want two phases. instead of grouping characters to words, I want to group the source characters into pre-tokens, and then group pre-tokens to words. let's say anything delimited by double quotes is a single pre-token so if you write '"one+two"' and then the '+' won't turn into a word on its own because only a '+' pre-token would.
< 1763727861 204835 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and say some digraphs like '@+' form pre-tokens that also remove the meaning of the constituent characters, for example the pre-token '@+' could be sticky like word characters so 'one+two@+three' would split to three words 'one' then '+' then 'two@+three'. my question is, what should I call pre-tokens.
< 1763727883 671397 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"pre-token" isn't a good name, and I'd like something better.
> 1763728916 430196 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168859&oldid=168441 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1657) 10change some things about my user page
< 1763728995 563074 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1763729185 18054 :Thelie!~Thelie@eduroam-249-140.wlan.uni-bonn.de JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1763729237 100906 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1763730034 743122 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1763735418 429996 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kylin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168860&oldid=168765 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5) 10
< 1763735764 846727 :Thelie!~Thelie@eduroam-249-140.wlan.uni-bonn.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1763738436 827072 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1763738468 606819 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 JOIN #esolangs ehmry :Emery
< 1763739042 248566 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1763739075 288812 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1763739757 738852 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you know how C++11 modifies iostream so it can format machine floating-point values to C99 "%a" hex float format. But (I think for ABI compatibility reasons) they didn't add a new formatting flag for the hex float format, but just changed the meaning of previously undefined combination of when both the ios::scientific bit (which normally enables
< 1763739758 238813 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"%e" format) and the ios::fixed bit (which normally enables "%f" format) is set. when neither of the ios::scientific big nor the ios::fixed bit is set then floats are printed in the "%g" format, which is similar to automatically choosing between "%f" and "%e" except that the precision is always interpreted as the number of significant digits
< 1763739758 738593 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :printed like in "%e". so far this makes sense.
< 1763740040 383115 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so today I found out that C++17 adds a new function std::to_chars to format numbers. this has signatures like `namespace std { to_chars_result to_chars(char *out_begin, char *out_end, double val, chars_format fmt, int precision); }`. here the fmt argument is a bitmask where you can set the chars_format::scientific bit for "%e" format, or the
< 1763740040 881268 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :chars_format::fixed bit for "%f" format. with me so far?
< 1763740109 380983 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they specified in the standard that if you set both the chars_format::scientific and the chars_format::fixed bit then you get the automatic "%g" format rather than the hex float "%a" format. WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING? this is designed to deliberately confuse expert users!
< 1763740145 100522 :wob_jonas26!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] wob_jonas
< 1763740156 276530 :wob_jonas26!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Client Quit
< 1763740328 648375 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1763740371 863937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1763740381 100230 :wob_jonas!~wob_jonas@business-37-191-60-209.business.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1763740573 178985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/fixpre14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168861 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+47) 10Created page with "style="font-family: Noto Sans Mono, monospace;""
> 1763740897 20793 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/fixpre14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168862&oldid=168861 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-47) 10Blanked the page
< 1763740930 889636 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1763740960 140597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168863&oldid=168812 5* 03 5* (+168) 10/* How does bias work? */ new section
> 1763741150 297117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168864&oldid=168826 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+43) 10/* Concept */ forgot this
> 1763741497 409425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168865&oldid=168863 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+686) 10/* How does bias work? */ reply
> 1763741562 168126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168866&oldid=168865 5* 03 5* (+129) 10/* How does bias work? */
> 1763741656 975298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Forces and such14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168867&oldid=168866 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+439) 10
< 1763742164 726961 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1763742565 523608 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1763742613 66540 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1763742644 955818 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1763743099 41281 :Thelie!~Thelie@cgn-89-1-216-186.nc.de JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1763744703 795026 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1763744826 778216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this would also be bad for library implementors if they wanted to implement iostream using to_chars. though that won't be happening often for historical reasons because to_chars is new.
< 1763745332 151425 :lynndotpy6093!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1763745378 441743 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1763745378 553309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so I don't think there are many cases where the tokenizer needs its own tokenizer, and as such I don't think there's that much terminology or them
< 1763745384 414252 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C has pp-tokens which are a similar concept
< 1763745400 548896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the relationship between the two tokenizers is different I think
< 1763745400 893641 :lynndotpy6093!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1763745434 356892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my suggestion is that you name the two lexers and then call them "lexer A tokens" and "lexer B tokens" (except you use the lexers' actual names rather than calling them "lexer A" and "lexer B")
< 1763745541 337240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: TeX handles ^^X escapes before the tokenizer, C handles \u0041 escapes and ??= trigraphs before the tokenizer, what I want is more only because I want to handle double-quoted strings of variable length instead of just fixed-length pre-tokens
< 1763745591 67714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :multiple layers in a lexer isn't that strange I think, I'm just planning to abuse it a bit more
< 1763745595 955504 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"provisional token" would make sense for some two-tokeniser setups but I don't think it applies to yours
< 1763745626 906412 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :C's trigraphs are called "trigraphs" even though they're a sort of first-lexer token
< 1763745638 993909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. just a description of what they are
< 1763745653 373878 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Java has a similar concept, which I called "hexagraphs" when writing about them because I didn't think they had a name)
< 1763745667 753783 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"token component", perhaps?
< 1763745771 702495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like to call them 'provisional token', I think that would be confusing because the typical use case is that a sequence of multiple letters and some letter-like punctuation is grouped into a word, but each letter is its own pre-token. 
< 1763745833 161412 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, it's almost like you're inventing your own encoding
< 1763745840 566115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and your pre-tokens are characters of the encoding
< 1763745841 779918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and I just wanted digraphs then I wouldn't have a problem, but I also want double-quoted sequences (any length, almost any character allowed inside other than double quote and newline) as pre-tokens
< 1763745916 901230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, if you're just adding a few digraphs or you're decoding a character encoding, like five-bit baudot or murray code with letter and number shifts, or unicode, then you could call your pre-tokens "characters", but with long double-quoted sequences I think "character" would be a confusing name
< 1763745959 217520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering about a language which somehow has infinitely many lexers/parsers and uses that to get TCness somehow
< 1763745995 361875 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think that only works if the lexers or parsers can somehow split a single character into multiple tokens, and am not sure how it would be interestingly different from a string-rewriting language
< 1763745999 66189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's probably a dead end
< 1763746074 520671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I have considered a language that is an infinitely stacked preprocessor, all it does is preprocess code for itself, and the program can mention how many layers deeper you want to escape something for, and there's no bottom so if you want your program to do something you'll just make the side effects of repeated preprocessing do it, but I couldn't come up with a good language from this yet
< 1763746108 513028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Wiki Cyclic Tag is basically that (but I'm not convinced it's actually a good language)
< 1763746127 419852 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's only interesting because it uses an existing preprocessor, and even that isn't super-interesting
< 1763746166 710432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what I'm thinking of wouldn't be reasonably called a lexer, it would be a preprocessor more like TeX's mouth or Metafont's mouth or SIMPLE are, with functions and conditionals
< 1763746205 179677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe just define the preprocessor and language itself as entirely different things? so both can just say "tokens" and there's no ambiguity
< 1763746236 314504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I may also want a layer for every binary rational number depth or even more numbers than that, rather than just for every integer depth, so there's a preprocessing layer between any two preprocessing layers where you can insert operations, but this is not a strict requirements
< 1763746454 108643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't think I can do that in this case, because I want this double preprocessing eventually for Enchain, though the specific examples I gave might not match it, and Enchain does tokenizing mostly independently of counting columns, so instead of variable names you use columns, and what matters is for some tokens that refer to a variable what column that token is in. I don't think you can really 
< 1763746460 116200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :imagine this as a preprocessor entirely separate from the language. what I could do is to make the tokenizer much simper without changing Enchain significantly, and maybe I *should* do that, because Enchain would be a better esolang if the only esoteric parts in it were related to the strange columns layout of its source code.
< 1763746560 998144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :complexity for the sake of complexity is *usually* uninteresting in esolangs
< 1763746581 238109 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Malbolge and INTERCAL both sort-of pull it off, but in each of them there's an alternative reason for the complexity, rather than just to be complex
< 1763746759 442140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and I wasn't really trying to do this *just* for the sake of complexity, at least at first, it's more like I added some digraphs because ASCII has too few characters to make everything both single-character and mnemonic, but then I couldn't stop
< 1763746805 279631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the double quoted string part is very likely a bad idea and I should figure out something better, though I don't yet know what, and I should simplify the digraphs part until it can just be described in one pass
< 1763746911 833376 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for the first Enchain-like language that is; if I get that one working then afterwards it'd be fine to make more complicated versions later
< 1763747383 973734 :Thelie!~Thelie@cgn-89-1-216-186.nc.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1763747987 818821 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1763749498 735737 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1763751500 109766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:(top, height)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168868&oldid=135849 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-408) 10me being a dumbass for the sixth millionth time
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< 1763752152 788256 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1763753334 140481 :Thelie!~Thelie@81.173.220.58 JOIN #esolangs Thelie :Thelie
< 1763753349 434690 :chloetax5!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1763753374 505878 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1763753374 704515 :chloetax5!~chloe@user/chloetax NICK :chloetax
> 1763753382 2102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Also?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168869&oldid=167914 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+6) 10/* Also?'s computational class */ add extra symbol for clarity.
< 1763753509 848672 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
< 1763753695 729278 :Thelie!~Thelie@81.173.220.58 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1763755073 101865 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do you remember me?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168870&oldid=167979 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Semantics */
> 1763755104 927362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do you remember me?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168871&oldid=168870 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+34) 10/* Semantics */
< 1763756762 839063 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1763757281 550514 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Deliberately resisting the urge to add a Vixen expression language.
< 1763757350 111648 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm at the point where I can imagine doing nested sends; I have a top-level that can do $(./top vixen import: objects/CoolObject) but not $(./top vixen import: (objects/CoolObject clone: vixen/TempAllocator)) because it's literally just argv with a carefully-chosen envp.
< 1763757378 564607 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1763757406 45181 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also I have a sort of fixpoint in the sense that $(./top vixen makeTop: top) will regenerate the top-level script.
< 1763757480 613709 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.32 JOIN #esolangs slavfox :slavfox
< 1763757503 243018 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So I think that, with some hacking, I could write in e.g. awk and do something that parses lines like `# $result := (self do: $arg) ifTrue: $this ifFalse: $that`. But then I'd be stuck writing the implementations of blocks and closures in awk too, and overall I think it'd be overly precommittal to a One True VM, which is an anti-goal.
< 1763757586 677046 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Regarding literate programming, I'm resisting a related pattern that is very tempting. A perennial problem with compiled methods, where there's both source code and also a compiled bytecode object, is that if the source can be edited then the code either has to be immediately recompiled or cached and invalidated later.
< 1763757659 473967 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Immediate recompilation is not that bad as long as the source is easy to keep around. My execline scripts are super-short. What if I just kept the source as *comments* in the compiled method? Then I can use sed/awk/etc. to convert the compiled script back to the original instructions, and I can regenerate the object easily.
< 1763757685 49720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1763757685 391257 :slavfox!~slavfox@193.28.84.32 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1763757685 418900 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1763757686 862488 :slavfox_!~slavfox@193.28.84.32 NICK :slavfox
< 1763757703 688346 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what's the novelty and/or value of that, compared, for instance, to an interpreted language which supports extensive comments?
< 1763757737 769076 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :See also https://github.com/brismu/zaha where I add a custom PNG chunk to rendered diagrams; the chunk contains JSON which can regenerate the diagram from scratch. This is *not* the same as Kell & Jakubovic's self-describing diagrams, although it's got the same shape.
< 1763757741 837253 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(admittedly, i still don't really get the value in lit programming other than stylistic)
< 1763757790 933725 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(off topic, that lit programming github bash script is highly unprofessional bash coding)
< 1763757804 32259 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Ah, sorry, I'll give context. Vixen's a Smalltix: a Unix filesystem that happens to behave like a Smalltalk. Part of the goal is avoiding One True VM because that leads to fragmentation; instead, we want to focus on maintaining the calling convention over any one language.
< 1763757937 328228 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But at the same time, we want to express something like an applicative tree, where we want to arrange existing objects. We want composition! So that means that we need some sort of compositor. How do we express ourselves on that compositor?
< 1763757939 110894 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also, that zaha repo, not your repo, but all the commits are yours...)
< 1763758018 256247 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No accident that Bracha, Jakubovic, and Kell all assume that we'll just port Smalltalk. Like, we'll copy the exact same objects that have been used since the time of Squeak and we'll use objects that have existed for decades.
< 1763758085 577560 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Yes. First time seeing that? GitHub lets us have organizations even if there's few contributors, and it's useful for organizing lots of Free Software that I've already shared with folks. I've had *three* different experiments in brismu for that kind of ontological work; in addition to zaha, there's klesi and zatske.
< 1763758099 238785 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotcha
< 1763758105 983079 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(re repo owner)
< 1763758151 455549 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we also have an org in mpv (i'm a not currently very active maintainer)
< 1763758196 357602 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :You can store the original data in a custom PNG chunk (I had once made up a custom PNG chunk for a different reason, which is to specify symbolic colour names like XPM does), although I probably would not use JSON. I might use PostScript if it is the source code that you intended to edit, or DER if I want a binary format for the data. JSON, SVG, etc, would also work though if you wanted them
< 1763758197 847825 :joast!~joast@2603:90d8:500:31cf:5e0f:3f4b:1cfe:5060 JOIN #esolangs joast :joast
< 1763758215 94140 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I think there are some PNG files that are also a ZIP archive file, so you can also include stuff in that way
< 1763758229 302606 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so where does this lit/compiled thing come in?
< 1763758233 627635 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For both brismu and rpypkgs, I wanted to ensure that the barrier to enrolling a new contributor is minimal. I'm trying to attract folks who want to do logic in Lojban or write interpreters using RPython and Nix, respectively.
< 1763758284 968730 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: I'll mark up a small file. I forget; can you read execline?
< 1763758306 869277 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(to be clean, i'm unfamiliar with any of the nicks/projects mentioned so far)
< 1763758311 686125 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :clear*
< 1763758342 792482 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i understood your description, but i don't get the context and or value
< 1763758370 656353 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and not that i know of (execline, or even what it is)
< 1763758427 627348 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :When I have closely related things that are not too large I usually put them into the same repository, although for larger projects it might make sense to separate them.
< 1763758448 928810 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's basically source+binary+docs in one file, and i asked how it differs inherently from a script with extensive comments
< 1763758463 441114 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Okay, no worries. One moment. In order of popularity, you'll probably first want to know about Nix (package manager for Linux), then Lojban (conlang for international collaboration, like Esperanto but not), then RPython (fork of Python 2.7 that can turn interpreters into JIT compilers).
< 1763758510 104351 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i know about both, but not first hand
< 1763758548 665195 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and RPython too, following our discussion in the past
< 1763758570 734268 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, okay. Sorry, I currently am not really remembering the past.
< 1763758582 55498 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :heh
< 1763758663 288693 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no worries. i think my maybe unasked question is what's the context for your initial "avih: Regarding literate programming, ..."
< 1763758707 923898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! I'm trying to avoid making an expression language for Vixen. Like, I have a desire to express applicative trees, but also I don't want to force the system to have One True Syntax.
< 1763758777 669478 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :iirc someone (you?) brought it up in the past and i didn't know what it was, and then you referred me to a github repo and i read a bit about it but didn't really get what it changes and for whom, and that's my last interaction with lit programming (i did look a bit at the code, read the wikipedia entry, but couldn't really get the value in it)
< 1763758862 696890 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(compared to well structured and documented source code)
< 1763758892 473883 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Literate programming might sometimes be helpful for making it in a book with index and cross-referencing and also might be usable for describing precisely something together with the implementation of it (this can sometimes be helpful in case of otherwise unclear documentation; it is usually not a substitute for proper documentation but sometimes it helps)
< 1763758901 395310 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, for example, what if the source code isn't available? Not because it's not open source, but because it's not encapsulated in a way that can be accessed for a grep or rewrite.
< 1763758930 893629 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Is a Unix system self-documenting because the kernel's C is in a standard directory, or because there's a $(man) or $(info) command?
< 1763759058 173947 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's a maintenance problem (keeping the binary and losing the source), hence my question today about your lit/compiled thing was compared to a well documented script, where the code can't be normally lost because it's also the runnable thing, as typically a possibly resulting binary is not distributed
< 1763759096 34703 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and/or considered cache etc (jit-like)
< 1763759152 146609 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but also, if one manages to lose the source to their binaries, what prevents them from losing the lit source as well?
< 1763759199 328992 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, those are great points from a traditional sysadmin POV.
< 1763759329 3936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, here's a couple annotated methods. This one's called reflect: https://bpa.st/HX4A and this one's called intern: https://bpa.st/QATA
< 1763759363 873355 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This isn't quite Smalltalk syntax (or Ruby or whatever dialect you prefer), but hopefully the gist is there. These are basically Smalltalk CompiledMethods.
< 1763759432 412241 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i don't get the specifics, but i get the overview. what about it?
< 1763759459 362649 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and i did check what execline it, so i roughly get that too now)
< 1763759464 544965 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is*
< 1763759575 393512 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, the idea is that, if I were to just accept having an expression language, then I could echo a string like "Mirror << reflect: [ | $target | (self clone: (self allocator*)) assign: obj* ref: $target ]" into a top-level compiler and magically have the method appear on the filesystem.
< 1763759635 45336 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Indeed, in the 2000s, this is the trap that everybody fell into. Piumarta made like four or five languages exploring this. But by choosing One True Syntax, we are effectively now in the One True VM implied by what we can get the machine to do with that syntax.
< 1763759801 38328 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the goal here is a compiled program (system?) which is implemented as a file structure, and compilation happens implicitly and automatically, and for contributors it appears that merely adding files makes them part of the program automatically?
< 1763759824 162230 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Oh, also this is an instance of a pattern I call Bikeshed Generator. There are questions that didn't exist before, like how to delimit a string (note that "obj*" needs to be a string literal, and we rely on execline's grammar!) or how to give names to intermediate temporary references.
< 1763759856 35935 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but i have to admit i'm overall a bit lost here.
< 1763759929 3409 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(that was an understatement...)
< 1763759936 631179 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let me start at the goal and then we'll work backwards. Quoting Jakubovic, "In the default state of Unix, the source code can be evolved without synchronising the binary. The compiler must be manually invoked after changing the source. Continuous Integration (CI) infrastructure must be set up to do this automatically."
< 1763759944 720527 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"In Smalltalk, the default way of editing code is via the class browser GUI. Upon committing the edit (Ctrl-S), the method is recompiled automatically."
< 1763759978 748566 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i've not used smalltalk but i get both quotes
< 1763760009 897889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The big difference is that, in Smalltalk, recompilation is linear-time and fast, taking only one pass over the inputs. This is parallel to the Pascal tradition, like in Oberon or Go.
< 1763760022 776944 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But C compilation can take a long time. C++ compilation can be quadratic-time.
< 1763760023 371847 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, if i get it right, your goal is something along the lines of the smalltalk model, but over the filesystem instead of gui, yes?
< 1763760067 891287 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. I actually laid it out in a table on wiki: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Smalltix
< 1763760074 44180 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but these are all practical concerns. you could use tcc to compile in O(N) too
< 1763760080 338263 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or use -O0
< 1763760114 10060 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, this is the second time that tcc's come up. When something comes up thrice, I go take a serious look and evaluate it.
< 1763760146 43560 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so basically you want to make the filesystem an apparently-live implementation of whatever runs it
< 1763760165 45822 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wait, maybe this is the third time? Hm. At any rate, yeah, that's a fair-enough point. But also note that the execline maps fairly closely to the messages that I actually want to send; there's not much overhead aside from parsing.
< 1763760167 835882 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or maybe even actually live)
< 1763760214 500613 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes! The idea is to program the machine from the inside.
< 1763760244 335138 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tcc is just a nice almost c99 unoptimizing compiler which is very fast and portable. but if you take a step back, it's just a quick unoptimizing compiler.
< 1763760257 240383 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you pass messages by argv then it will only use null-terminated strings as messages (although other way around might work)
< 1763760286 891579 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: yeah, i do get the idea.
> 1763760319 525896 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Buckets 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:ThisIsACatProgram.png10]]": This is A Cat program.
< 1763760394 446967 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for reference how quick it is, long time ago someone made a linux system bootable in seconds from source which is compiled on boot from source)
< 1763760453 501527 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. you could shut it down, make some changes to kernel source files, boot it again, and it will include these changes
< 1763760459 309307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Yes, that's a real limitation right now. Also, there's some stuff not quite used, like stdin, that is left free for users to provide. I'm slowly making it more complex, and will eventually pass file descriptors too, but I want a convention which can call remotely from one machine to another over plain old SSH.
< 1763760546 670825 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had a idea about passing capabilities in a capability-based system (it would be similar to passing file descriptors), using the network, although this does not necessarily work with SSH (my guess is that SSH probably does not do this, although a protocol could be made which does do it).
> 1763760549 443118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168873&oldid=168556 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (-14) 10Change muh mind about recursion
< 1763760582 697679 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: is it supposed to be live, like the smalltalk quote you mentioned? i.e. is it one system which is always "running"? or is it code on disk which can be instanciated into a system whenever the user needs it?
> 1763760620 745048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168874&oldid=168817 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
< 1763760629 686067 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I might be wrong about SSH though)
> 1763760672 754745 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168875&oldid=168843 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+26) 10
> 1763760672 979080 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168876&oldid=168848 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
< 1763760686 445117 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Both. I should explain some features of Nix. Packages live in the *Nix store*, a big directory at /nix/store/ where each package gets its own subdirectory. The store is read-only. It's also garbage-collected and GC roots are symlinks that are made with a specific command (not ln!)
> 1763760706 503131 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dision14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168877 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1241) 10Created page with "Dision Is An Esoteric Programming Language Created By [[User:Buckets]] In 2022. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Number Combonation !! Instructions |- | 0,0 || Swap the Current cell to the One To The Right. |- | 0,1 || Swap the Current cell to the One To The left. |- | 0,2 || M
< 1763760714 695519 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i'm roughly familiar with this, yes
< 1763760731 284783 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(i do know what nix is, just no 1st hand experience with it)
< 1763760746 941445 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right now, Vixen objects can recursively copy themselves into a Nix store. It turns out that this isn't that hard. They can also copy themselves from one machine to another.
> 1763760762 1958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168878 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+1624) 10Created page with "== Non == This programming language is designed for people who want to purposfully hurt their brains. Similar to BF, it is intentionally designed to hurt. ===CHARACTERS=== the characters of non are the following:.  ^ //increments the object on stack.   , //decrements th
< 1763760796 210117 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, sure. I just thought you might not understand why it's non-trivial to do what I'm currently working on: allowing an object to edit itself by making a temporary copy, spawning an editor and file browser, and recursively copying itself back to the Nix store.
< 1763760848 317533 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Doing `foreground { vim $1 }` is not a big deal. It's all of the check-in, check-out logic, as well as chasing and rewriting symlinks, that gives me headaches.
< 1763760929 576828 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Oh, maybe I totally missed the aim of your question? In terms of what's "running", the Linux kernel's always tracking a cached version of the filesystem, and we can think of Linux itself as the running process with the resident memory.
< 1763760966 217987 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is nix inherently related here? i.e. is this intended to be part of nix and/or used exclusively with nix? or is nix here just a convenient platform for it?
< 1763760990 805698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: What does SSH have to do with this at this stage? You either need native OS support for remote capabilities, or support to virtualize capabilities so that a user program like SSH can intercept and forward requests.
< 1763761046 838404 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unless I'm missing a link to some existing but obscure OS like Plan 9
< 1763761062 332731 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Nix store is essential, yes. This could all work on Tvix or Guix too; what matters is the shape of the filesystem. Nix is a package-capability system; a reference to a package in the Nix store is a (weak unguessable) capability!
> 1763761062 755806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168879&oldid=168873 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+202) 10Also, i think recursion may be possible without paradoxes. i hope
< 1763761064 199602 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as i mentioned, i'm overall quite lost here, and i'm unfamiliar with vixen too, or your other attempts...)
< 1763761087 197329 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: If you have proxy capabilities then you can implement forwarding them to network without the kernel implementation of them.
> 1763761119 400296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168880&oldid=168879 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+2) 10
< 1763761120 332287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: that's what I called "virtual"
< 1763761121 588143 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(In the case of UNIX, this would only apply to UNIX sockets and not other kind of file descriptors, and SCM_RIGHTS can be used but SCM_CREDENTIALS would not be available.)
< 1763761123 379149 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The P9 link is tenuous but real. Spent last night looking again at Inferno and the Limbo language; awful language, but not the worst VM to host internally.
< 1763761155 250086 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(This is not quite the same way that I would intend proxy capabilities to work, but it might be the closest thing in UNIX.)
> 1763761213 822018 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168881&oldid=168878 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+323) 10/* Non */
> 1763761251 86019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168882&oldid=168881 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+3) 10/* Non */
> 1763761300 385801 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168883&oldid=168882 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (-3) 10
< 1763761491 628754 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Maybe starting with the threat model is better. It turns out that a capability-aware system is safe when loading code is safe. Part of this is extremely subtle "taming": taking away standard authorities like unrestricted filesystem and network access. But part of this is having an assurance that loading code onto the system will not compromise it.
< 1763761546 501538 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :A Vixen object can invoke nix-copy-closure and copy itself across the network, if there's SSH credentials available. But loading code into a Nix store is safe! It doesn't conflict with anything else and it's only executed if somebody calls it.
< 1763761561 844350 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: start even earlier. what problem are you trying to solve, if it is indeed solving a problem.
< 1763761611 166023 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh. Further back than the problem of fragmentation on Unix?
< 1763761632 190729 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fragmentation of what?
< 1763761647 149449 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :date oh a storage device? memory? implementations?
< 1763761661 216535 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :data* on*
< 1763761668 269678 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought designing the hardware could be done in combination with software design to improve the safety, although VM codes and emulation could also be used, they would not be as good but still would be usable in order to make the program work on multiple computers. This alone is not sufficient; you would also check that the loaded code is what you intended to load, etc.
< 1763761686 509256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: Part of the problem here is the joke: Q: Name 20 UNIX system calls. A: ioctl
< 1763761734 217458 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Fragmentation of the programming model as a consequence of compilation of behavior into early-bound static binaries.
< 1763761746 761016 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that is a part of it too.
< 1763761774 112204 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ok, i understand the problem. and vixen is your attempt to come up with a model which addresses it?
< 1763761800 177527 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Vixen's just a fork of Smalltix trying to incorporate many more lessons from other corners of Unix.
< 1763761838 515148 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But further, Vixen's going to be yet another E: an attempt at secure distributed computation which isn't hard to use. Something that can simplify real tasks in my homelab.
< 1763761850 670565 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, but overall you're trying to come up with a unix model to address the issue of "detached" binary from source?
< 1763761898 670692 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gotcha. i get the goal.
< 1763761899 148295 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Ironically, ioctl is half of the right thing in this context, which is a *uniform* interface for interacting with capabilities that could easily be intercepted and forwarded. But in practice, ioctl is a mess.)
< 1763761911 505155 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I haven't come up with anything. You might not have noticed the degree to which I am a blender that summarizes whitepapers. But yeah. What I'm looking at right now is how to do something like a CompiledMethod.
< 1763761913 439050 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and i also roughly get the means.
> 1763761936 303316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168884&oldid=168883 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+250) 10
< 1763761948 559097 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, that is what I thought about ioctl too, although I would not have such a thing like that; you will have messages sending instead, and the messages can include references to other capabilities.
< 1763761975 642181 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ideas can be considered an output which came up :)
< 1763761986 658340 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry about my connection
> 1763761987 122419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168885&oldid=168884 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (-104) 10
> 1763762015 518594 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168886&oldid=168885 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (-33) 10
< 1763762016 316804 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The flat buffers are definitely part of the issue, too. Userspace doesn't have type information for rich structures just from the interface; it's not self-describing. Same problem with SysV/POSIX message queues too, but Linux kernel devs don't force people to use mq.
> 1763762049 818081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168887&oldid=168886 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+1) 10
< 1763762056 517428 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1763762061 555457 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right
> 1763762077 603448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168888&oldid=168887 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+1) 10
< 1763762154 769648 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Kell's liballocs is an interesting solution to this. A program compiled/linked with liballocs can ask where a pointer came from: who allocated it, how big is it, what are its original bounds, what's its DWARF-style type info, etc.? I don't know if it works with pointers from the kernel but it hints at the possibility of just *asking* the kernel what it returned in ioctl().
> 1763762237 615695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168889&oldid=168888 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+81) 10
< 1763762265 79726 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
> 1763762305 855843 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HeckYeah10014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=168890 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+7309) 10Created page with "I'm a chill guy who likes flowers...   ..."
< 1763762393 219530 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had thought, depending on the use, the type information (and structure information) can be stored in a file which describes the types of messages, or it can use a type/length/value format such as DER (although I had thought to use a different format which I would make up for a new system, you can use DER with existing systems)
< 1763762412 616156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah. an interface similar to ?etsockopt would probably be better for ioctl. still not quite describing the types, but slightly better than the vararg arguments of ioctl. but ioctl is like really old, and there are so many ioctl subfunctions defined, it's hard to change now.
< 1763762578 261110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: prctl is also over 20 system calls on Linux, as is fcntl
< 1763762592 181211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering why two of those end "ctl" and one ends "cntl"
< 1763762626 810539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oddly, one of the fcntl calls duplicates a non-fcntl call: dup, so dup is duplicated
< 1763762640 226328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: because you aim for 5 letters length
< 1763762670 846188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a new version of dup was needed because "dup" is only 3 letters and thus too short?
< 1763762676 608193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: fcntl also duplicates an ioctl call, but I think that might be because of a sysv/bsd duplication of interface
< 1763762680 43854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(what was that, early C export symbol length limit?)
< 1763762698 955891 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would have to be very early, I think the length limits became larger very early on
< 1763762705 249516 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it was 5 or 6, can't remember for sure; 5 seems more likely in this moment)
< 1763762727 499710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't ioctl from before unix got rewritten in C though?
< 1763762735 644592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although thinking about it, maybe this is why related functions from early C like malloc/calloc differ in their prefix rather than their suffix
< 1763762739 627447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like wasn't it a native level syscall in ancient pre-C unix?
< 1763762742 418673 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it didn't limit the symbol length per se, but allowed implementations to treat symbols as equal if a short prefix matched
< 1763762748 188983 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: huh, what was Unix written in before C?
< 1763762749 166642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean they had to control hardware somehow
< 1763762786 376383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: assembly for the machine that they were using. but it's the user-space programs running on it and their syscall interface that's more relevant here than unix itself.
< 1763762796 885307 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Handwritten! I think I put the story at [[Tmg]]; C was a sort of best-effort hack after Fortran failed to fit on the target machine.
< 1763762798 78181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I know UNIX and C were developed in parallell
< 1763762799 830548 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :both both started before C
< 1763762823 186059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also the computer they were using for it originally ran dc as its only non-asm programming language – I was mildly hoping that UNIX had been written in dc but I guess it would be too unlikely
< 1763762828 32297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: which came first, the C language or the C compiler
< 1763762832 101421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, they got paired quickly, so unix became a good motivation and use case for C, and C made unix more portable and allowed it to spread
< 1763762854 989873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ouch, writing an OS kernel in Fortran would be terrible I think
< 1763762887 136408 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you don't technically need dynamic memory allocation to be able to write a kernel, but it surely helps
< 1763762907 312693 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that they originally hoped for the kernel to be in C. I think even as late as v4 Unix it was still in assembly, along with most of the small common tools.
> 1763762942 962885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168891&oldid=168880 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+91) 10
> 1763763055 392653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Non14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168892&oldid=168889 5* 03HeckYeah100 5* (+115) 10/* Non */
< 1763763125 108179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I still think the user-space programs are more important here. unix made them small and mostly independent, so they were easy to rewrite in C one by one.
< 1763763198 944228 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Yeah. I think that you're exactly right about the syscall interface, too. A program written in C can interoperate with an awk script written a few years later, too, so the entire system can evolve past C eventually.
> 1763763310 301291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02HeckYeah10010]] to [[User:HeckYeah100]]: Misspelled title: wrong namespace
> 1763763336 487348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168895&oldid=168891 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+185) 10
> 1763763678 494149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Contains everything14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168896&oldid=168895 5* 03C++DSUCKER 5* (+19) 10
< 1763764182 791417 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Valgrind will sometimes report memory as lost even if the program is immediately terminated after the contents of the memory is written to the output
< 1763764342 803006 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Night
> 1763764486 973072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168897&oldid=168734 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+2) 10/* Calling a Function */
> 1763764634 924797 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168898&oldid=168897 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+33) 10/* Calling a Function */
> 1763764669 499572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168899&oldid=168898 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+91) 10/* Dictionaries (Hash Maps) = */
> 1763765444 96743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168900&oldid=168899 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+413) 10/* Dictionaries (Hash Maps) */
< 1763765884 748956 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-154-63.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1763766317 773923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168901&oldid=168900 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+721) 10/* Dictionaries (Hash Maps) */
< 1763766348 47929 :yc!~yc@user/youngchief QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1763766650 598686 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:697a:bc7a:f580:408c QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1763766870 744373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168902&oldid=168901 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+791) 10/* Key */
> 1763767574 899357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168903&oldid=168902 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+12) 10/* GetItems */
> 1763767593 598773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168904&oldid=168903 5* 03NTMDev 5* (-12) 10/* GetItems */
< 1763768073 720028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I went to check the historical minimum limit for external identifiers was 6 (and 31 for internal identifiers)
< 1763768085 567659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: that matches my memory
> 1763769075 894669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168905&oldid=168904 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+413) 10/* GetItems */
> 1763769259 149630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168906&oldid=168905 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+491) 10/* Get item in Dictionary */
> 1763769471 456979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=168907&oldid=168906 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+169) 10/* Bugs */