< 1764288144 661687 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Quit: Wee!
< 1764288376 218602 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1764288395 817698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [1..3]
< 1764288397 55222 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [1,2,3]
< 1764288416 830517 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [1.0..3.5]
< 1764288417 969347 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [1.0,2.0,3.0,4.0]
< 1764288431 523866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I wasn't expecting that outcome
< 1764288452 374854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(was expecting it either to stop at 3.0 or continue indefinitely)
< 1764288644 285452 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: IIUC the rationale was that [0.1..0.7] is supposed to produce [0.1,0.2,0.3,0.4,0.5,0.6,0.7] despite 7 * 0.1 <= 0.7
< 1764288665 298580 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the instances do rounding
< 1764288669 430975 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: but what if you do it with a float that rounds in the other direction?
< 1764288675 534852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's a *good* choice
< 1764288709 774755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's "optimized" for the case that the upper bound is "exact" (but rounded)
< 1764288738 832836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, let me finish what I was doing...
< 1764288786 444892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [0.0, 72057594037927936.0 .. 720575940379279360.0]
< 1764288787 608497 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0.0,7.205759403792794e16,1.4411518807585587e17,2.161727821137838e17,2.88230...
< 1764288816 3863 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it's floating point, a lot of things will go horribly wrong ;-)
< 1764288851 359147 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [0.0, 72057594037927936.0 .. 216172782113783814.0]
< 1764288852 537968 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0.0,7.205759403792794e16,1.4411518807585587e17,2.161727821137838e17]
< 1764288871 24944 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a definition in the report...
< 1764288879 929587 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [0.0, 72057594037927937.0 .. 216172782113783817.0]
< 1764288881 150531 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0.0,7.205759403792794e16,1.4411518807585587e17,2.161727821137838e17]
< 1764288888 987111 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> [0.0, 72057594037927935.0 .. 216172782113783811.0]
< 1764288890 190434 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0.0,7.205759403792794e16,1.4411518807585587e17,2.161727821137838e17]
< 1764288915 102545 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, this doesn't work with 3 elements because the rounding errors don't compound enough, the inputs are equal as floats in all three cases
< 1764288931 851615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :need a longer array to test it properly
< 1764289216 443713 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@metar lowi
< 1764289216 861258 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :METAR LOWI 272350Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 BKN007 M04/M06 Q1026
< 1764289225 285568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@oeis 1,2,3,5,8,13
< 1764289225 532138 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : Sequence not found.
< 1764289227 416401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sadly)
< 1764289240 597230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it does HTTPS but runs into a Cloudflare challenge)
< 1764289359 79809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot oeis 1,2,3,5,8,13
< 1764289360 192552 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: http://oeis.org/searchs?q=1%2C2%2C3%2C5%2C8%2C13 A000045(1/249) Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1.: 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17711,28657,46368,75025,121393,196418,317811,514229,832040,1346269,2178309,3524578,5702887,9227465,14930352,24157817,39088169,63245986,10233... [Output truncated. Use `more` to read more]
< 1764289375 458014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot oeis_r 1,2,3,5,8,13
< 1764289380 824005 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: A000045 Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1. (Formerly M0692 N0256)0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946, 17711, 28657, 46368, 75025, 121393, 196418, 317811, 514229, 832040, 1346269, 2178309, 3524578, 5702887, 9227465, 14930352, 24157817, 39088169, 63245986, 102334155
< 1764289465 520659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote oeis_r in a way where it should be able to distinguish errors from no match found 
< 1764289489 88108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you shouldn't just get a no match when it's actually a Cloudfare challenge or whatever error
< 1764289651 998938 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, it could complain about the reply not being in the expected format.
< 1764289677 580793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I won't bother.
< 1764289682 483360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm disappointed that lambdabot isn't following "sequence not found" with random insults
< 1764289704 233058 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the random insults are only for mispelt commands
< 1764289735 455447 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It did actually fix @metar at least.
< 1764290955 777550 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1764291511 444421 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1764291705 350993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XO Mchne14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169453&oldid=126015 5* 03None1 5* (+12) 10
> 1764291745 712808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07XO Mchne14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169454&oldid=169453 5* 03None1 5* (+7) 10
< 1764293653 957693 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1764294368 729484 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Quit: Will there be a rubber tree at the bottom of this cliff?
< 1764294443 265710 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1764294490 44388 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@oeis 1,2,3,5,8,13
< 1764294490 728403 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : https://oeis.org/A000045 Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0)...
< 1764294490 728446 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
< 1764294498 484993 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, that's so silly
< 1764294540 198313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the "fix": https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/libera/patches/oeis-0.3.10.1.patch
< 1764294627 61305 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(no I didn't add anything that would distinguish "no result" and "html mess with heavily obfuscated JS"
< 1764294630 385719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :)
< 1764294652 829472 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh and why is the MagicHash still there, lol
< 1764294745 113673 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the AIscraperbots mostly pretend to be browsers, so giving a useragent that obviously isn't a browser is often enough to be allowed through
< 1764294783 888215 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's just funny that no user agent at all, or a user agent that looks like curl, both run into the challenge. Understandable, maybe.
< 1764294786 998766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But funny.
< 1764294822 983296 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH I'm happy that I thought to try this :)
< 1764294849 721210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Even though it obviously depends on the whims of CF.
< 1764294988 526070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway. It took some time but in the end this move of lambdabot has gone fairly smoothly. :)
< 1764295112 116630 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1764295345 99404 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1764295430 74645 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it wouldn't surprise me if the AI scraperbots were vibecoded and didn't even think of setting a useragent
< 1764295490 803772 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1764295732 732875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Anyway, it still *feels* silly :P
< 1764295756 316419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: it may be a sensible response to a silly situation
< 1764295766 95463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that silliness must be involved somewhere, though
< 1764295779 463815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and stupidity
< 1764295790 285669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not like those scrapers produce anything of value
< 1764295810 559701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :though there's a lot of money riding on it
< 1764295816 712630 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :adding another level of stupidity
< 1764295856 223712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: my guess is that the scrapers are selling the scraped data, in which case the volume of data scraped may be more valuable to them than any detail of the data
< 1764296138 528533 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-154-63.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1764296853 838292 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@list dict
< 1764296853 932540 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
< 1764296858 238551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :half of these are still missing
< 1764296887 56445 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@devils lawyer
< 1764296888 171539 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "lawyer" devil "The Devil's Dictionary (1881-1906)"
< 1764296888 171591 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :LAWYER, n.  One skilled in circumvention of the law.
< 1764296888 263807 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 
< 1764296904 449906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the most important one is there. (hmm, why the empty line... is that new?)
< 1764297546 566615 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@wn swallow
< 1764297547 656347 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "swallow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
< 1764297547 750203 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :swallow
< 1764297547 862339 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :    n 1: a small amount of liquid food; "a sup of ale" [syn:
< 1764297547 862384 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :         {swallow}, {sup}]
< 1764297547 862391 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :    2: the act of swallowing; "one swallow of the liquid was
< 1764297549 657849 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :[24 @more lines]
> 1764297633 371325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169455&oldid=169364 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+121) 10
> 1764297698 222240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169456&oldid=169455 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+143) 10
< 1764298075 293553 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1764300410 734652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess half of those dictionaries have "always" been missing (i.e. I never figure out where they came from)
< 1764300440 414007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@vera GPU
< 1764300441 550391 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "gpu" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (February 2016)"
< 1764300441 550439 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :GPU
< 1764300441 681956 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :       Graphics Processing Unit
< 1764300441 682001 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 
< 1764300656 893685 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :@foldoc semaphore
< 1764300657 913979 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :*** "semaphore" foldoc "The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (30 December 2018)"
< 1764300658 1530 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :semaphore
< 1764300658 1593 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : 
< 1764300658 32182 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :   <programming, operating system> The classic method for
< 1764300658 32261 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :   restricting access to shared resources (e.g. storage) in a
< 1764300659 916130 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :[48 @more lines]
< 1764300681 960646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably good enough
< 1764303600 851206 :lynndotpy6093!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Quit: bye bye
< 1764303664 313855 :lynndotpy6093!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
> 1764308093 333769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Waffelz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169457&oldid=169456 5* 03Waffelz 5* (-21) 10
> 1764308216 246189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unfill14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169458 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2096) 10Created page with "'''Unfill''' is an esolang devised by [[User:Yayimhere]], purely to have a visual style similar to <code>(___;___)</code>. It is also made to be a very separated esolang, as in, it has multiple systems that do not easily interact, however this is not intention
< 1764310137 694923 :Guest38_!~textual@2a01:5ec0:1805:a54f:f5f7:4084:cb60:e5fd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1764310216 183326 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169459&oldid=169369 5* 03Waffelz 5* (-1689) 10
> 1764310244 686453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169460&oldid=166599 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+1146) 10
> 1764310288 219969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:3 Bits, 1.5 Bytes14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169461&oldid=169298 5* 03MihaiEso 5* (+304) 10
< 1764313614 353714 :Guest38_!~textual@2a01:5ec0:1805:a54f:f5f7:4084:cb60:e5fd QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com
< 1764314435 217428 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1764314740 851623 :Guest38!~textual@2a01:5ec0:1805:a54f:f5f7:4084:cb60:e5fd JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1764315016 624701 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unfill14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169462&oldid=169458 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+43) 10
> 1764315266 746177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unfill14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169463&oldid=169462 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+164) 10
> 1764315368 852682 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5*  10moved [[02Unfill10]] to [[Yuontlitled]]
> 1764315378 654605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unfill14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169466&oldid=169465 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-25) 10Blanked the page
> 1764315601 293298 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuontlitled14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169467&oldid=169464 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+106) 10
> 1764315632 255898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169468&oldid=169372 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+18) 10
> 1764315770 910521 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07013414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169469&oldid=167490 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-6) 10/* syntax */
> 1764316638 854197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RECT4n=GLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169470&oldid=167690 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* The copying rule */ correct a mistake
> 1764316648 894039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RECT4n=GLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169471&oldid=169470 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* Halting */
> 1764316749 119602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RECT4n=GLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169472&oldid=169471 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* example programs */
< 1764317101 977039 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1764318184 863130 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1764318557 753245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[074ByteJump14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169473 5* 03Timm 5* (+132) 10Created page with "like [[ByteByteIfJump]] but have extra byte of jump if else not true   Ab Bb Cc Dj Ej  [[Category:OISC]] [[Category:Self-modifying]]"
> 1764318618 199205 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ByteByteIfJump14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169474&oldid=169414 5* 03Timm 5* (+24) 10
< 1764318678 852336 :chomwitt_alt!~alex@2a02:85f:9a5f:900:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1764318702 623045 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:85f:9a5f:900:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd JOIN #esolangs chomwitt :realname
> 1764318982 346575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Timm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169475&oldid=169415 5* 03Timm 5* (+3) 10
< 1764319842 714697 :Guest38!~textual@2a01:5ec0:1805:a54f:f5f7:4084:cb60:e5fd QUIT :Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com
> 1764320658 312487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07.chat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169476&oldid=166392 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+145) 10/* Commands */
< 1764320713 768508 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: ah, that sounds entirely believable. Wikimedia tech announced a few months ago that if you use api.php they'll be more aggressive in denying queries with no User-Agent header. 
< 1764320741 872918 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and perlbot's get builtin uses a user-agent, a fixed one built into that plugin
< 1764320882 568301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the scraperbots produce value, but only in a perverse way: they make other people to get scared that some of their belved websites might disappear because of them, so some of those people will download the websites and makes local copies, when they'd otherwise just rely on the site being always online, I count that as a small win
< 1764321028 400013 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess it's "producing value" as in the car breakins produce the value that people got very fed up and eventually chose a government that can punish thefts and fencing illegal goods
< 1764321077 963347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so more like there's a silver lining than producing value
< 1764321095 426048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I should also download more websites
< 1764321208 614183 :chomwitt!~alex@2a02:85f:9a5f:900:42b0:76ff:fe46:a5fd QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1764321222 172221 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1764321222 199667 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1764321529 167554 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1764321588 880512 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1764321718 763415 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1764323277 50818 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:4gn/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169477&oldid=155725 5* 03JIT 5* (+286) 10/* Computational class? */ new section
> 1764323445 348738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:JIT14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169478&oldid=166610 5* 03JIT 5* (+114) 10
> 1764323692 800551 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 overwrite10 02 5* 03JIT 5*  10uploaded a new version of "[[02File:Nothing-suspicious.png10]]": fixed minor error
> 1764323953 801734 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuontlitled14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169480&oldid=169467 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Syntax and memory */
> 1764323979 120106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuontlitled14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169481&oldid=169480 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-3) 10/* Syntax and memory */
> 1764324150 850398 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Yuontlitled14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169482&oldid=169481 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+3) 10/* Syntax and memory */
> 1764325677 672596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minimal assembly language14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169483&oldid=99075 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-29) 10/* External resources */ blablabla there's no proof of TC-ness, so im gonna take thew tag.
< 1764325777 359179 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1764325956 156247 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1764326767 413759 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds
< 1764326897 633563 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
> 1764327320 750586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goto tag14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169484 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1080) 10Created page with "'''Goto tag''' is a minimal esoteric programming language created by [[User:Yayimhere]], because she had begun to get unsatisfied by [[TLQ]]. Goto tag is a sort of [[BCT|Self-BCT]] tag system, however is in her opinion more interesting == Semantics == Every 
> 1764328134 238075 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:4gn/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169485&oldid=169477 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+264) 10/* Computational class? */
> 1764328646 611185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goto tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169486&oldid=169484 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+34) 10/* Semantics */
> 1764328673 593563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Goto tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169487&oldid=169486 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+42) 10/* Syntax */
> 1764328716 514562 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169488&oldid=169468 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+15) 10/* esolangs */
> 1764329100 624199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Infinite Goto14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169489&oldid=168084 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-15) 10/* See also */ add Goto tag
> 1764329196 498125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169490&oldid=75035 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-32) 10/* External resources */ it isnt rlly proven to be a PDA, and also, you can reach down infinitely in the stack(since its the program) so like... its more powerful than a PDA?
> 1764329293 576866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169491&oldid=146990 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+10) 10/* Computational class */ since we dont know, add a most likely
< 1764330990 661524 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1764331231 909638 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-154-63.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1764331490 4634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:4gn/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169492&oldid=169485 5* 03None1 5* (+318) 10/* Computational class? */
> 1764332278 622910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07StackPoint14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169493&oldid=108979 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+24) 10Updated link
< 1764333569 44813 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1764333933 588652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169494 5* 03Hammy 5* (+1648) 10Created page with " is an esolang by [[User:Hammy]] that has one purpose: to have every unicode arrow be a command. <blockquote> "A language where flow control, assignment, calculation and basically everything is done using unicode arrows"   [[List of ideas#Looks Like]] </blockquote> ==Commands== 
> 1764335174 352119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitwise Cyclic Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169495&oldid=169386 5* 03Olus2000 5* (+308) 10/* Self BCT */ extend example to illustrate an edge case
> 1764336861 285114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169496&oldid=169196 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-90) 10
> 1764337375 953720 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oxen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169497 5* 03None1 5* (+1900) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''oxen''' is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Memory== Three accumulators: A, B and C are used. They contain unbounded unsigned integers. At first, A is 1, B and C are 0. ==Commands== oxen has the following 4 commands (case sensitive). {| class="wikita
> 1764337394 929225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oxen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169498&oldid=169497 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Commands */
> 1764337433 110078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169499&oldid=169448 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10/* O */
> 1764337509 926192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169500&oldid=169395 5* 03None1 5* (+74) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1764337517 335967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169501&oldid=169499 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* O */
> 1764337629 186237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169502&oldid=169500 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1764337758 235283 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oxen14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169503&oldid=169498 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Computational class */
> 1764337833 843740 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Oxen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169504&oldid=169503 5* 03None1 5* (+47) 10/* Computational class */
> 1764339140 375331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Noddity14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169505&oldid=167772 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-46) 10/* Turing completeness proof */
> 1764339801 41600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Conquer and divide14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169506&oldid=167843 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-255) 10
> 1764339825 96310 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do Minsk Family14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169507&oldid=168644 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+42) 10/* A tree of all the languages */
> 1764339914 672328 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169508&oldid=169490 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+2031) 10
> 1764340623 134250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:8ial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169509&oldid=169118 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+160) 10
< 1764341396 112347 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:d097:663d:a4a8:9faa JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1764341878 561929 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1764342307 101612 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:d097:663d:a4a8:9faa QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1764343232 584194 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
> 1764343678 121812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hexad14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169510&oldid=169323 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+961) 10/* Examples */
< 1764343694 491117 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1764344010 432774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Classical logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169511&oldid=166007 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-1) 10/* Operators */
> 1764344026 526162 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Classical logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169512&oldid=169511 5* 03BestCoder 5* (-35) 10/* Truth values */
> 1764344872 549448 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169513 5* 03 5* (+110) 10Created page with "this is my favorite esolang ~~~~"
< 1764345479 110315 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:acbc:1201:790b:e949 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1764347065 109434 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:acbc:1201:790b:e949 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1764348109 297153 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1764348691 356837 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1764348743 463903 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1764348768 336805 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1764349265 440286 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Revisiting an old sneer, commenting on Arc and Bel by Paul Graham: https://lobste.rs/s/jec21l/thought_leaders_chicken_sexers#c_cdnikr
< 1764349295 2702 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Don't design a new programming language in vanity. Have a clear problem that you intend to tackle, a niche in which you intend to excel, a way for users to extend the language, a path towards machine implementation, and a compelling connection to existing programming traditions." Could be relevant for our newcomers, if they were amenable to advice.
< 1764349418 145734 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:cc91:d52c:4b38:664e JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1764349614 724857 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:cc91:d52c:4b38:664e QUIT :Client Quit
< 1764349721 569898 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also found the thread where I said, "Functional programming is a tribe. It's not a school of thought, but a school of behaviors and attitudes towards people." I got bannered for this thread: https://lobste.rs/s/bdaiwc/there_is_no_such_thing_as_functional#c_e9n6gw
> 1764349879 607580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:8ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169514&oldid=169509 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+319) 10/* ??? */
< 1764349995 810075 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no opinion on the 2nd quote, but i like the 1st. problem is that it might not apply to some of the esolangs already, highly likely including bf
< 1764350036 490226 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so i don't know how much it can be used as a rule or guideline for esolangs...
< 1764350079 468950 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :avih: Oh, for sure. One of the nice things about being esoteric is that we can avoid caring about whether other people use our languages. But I also think that one of the things differentiating what we build from other artlangs and conlangs is that ours are *executable*.
> 1764350099 820378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169515&oldid=169445 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-13) 10/* Computational Class */
< 1764350160 973699 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's a big difference in my own work, for example, between e.g. [[Monte]] and [[Cammy]]. The former was a team project that intended to scale up to Java's niche; the latter is a single-person experiment in minimalism. But both run on my machine and have actively-maintained Nix flakes, too.
< 1764350196 233612 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1764350224 918090 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, big lesson learned there: don't compete with Java in any way. Admit to oneself that Java's design is optimized for a certain kind of slop-coding system where you can do anything with One More Class added to a Big Ball of Mud, reread http://laputan.org/mud/ and decide to do something else.
< 1764350251 619313 :avih!~quassel@23.94.231.119 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::)
< 1764350338 714761 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think my biggest impact at Google was literally adding an abstract factory with some DI signatures and annotations to one of the services I owned, written in Java. My coworkers were horrified that I used vim instead of an IDE. I was horrified that it worked, because I didn't *do* anything; I just wired up existing stuff.
> 1764350424 515320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169516&oldid=169515 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+87) 10/* Computational Class */
> 1764350548 764304 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[078ial14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169517&oldid=169516 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-36) 10/* Computational Class */
< 1764350826 31507 :strerror!~strerror@user/strerror PRIVMSG #esolangs :.oO( BF certainly excels in its niche. It also has possibly more user extensions than any other )
> 1764350972 871923 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:8ial14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169518&oldid=169514 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+15) 10/* ??? */
> 1764352016 395393 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169519&oldid=169494 5* 03Hammy2 5* (+363) 10
< 1764352316 276174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: this "abstract factory with some DI signatures and annotations", is that in Java?
< 1764352395 155927 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: It was incredibly Java. So much Java. Google has like three different DI frameworks. There's DI for gRPC, DI for Borg (and presumably now for k8s too), DI for automatically meta-load-balancing between different load-balancer services.
< 1764352472 817052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1764352751 110451 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:44d9:fc06:651e:6b7e JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1764353227 100732 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:44d9:fc06:651e:6b7e QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1764353549 500599 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :…
< 1764353557 186965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what most of those mean but they sound scary
< 1764353657 686273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile, I wrote code in python and VBA in this dayjob and I'm scared that my most valuable contributions in the long term will be from the latter
< 1764353687 515401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because a lot of the python ones are unmaintainable messes that nobody but I will use
< 1764353711 406069 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<korvo> Also found the thread where I said, "Functional programming is a tribe. It's not a school of thought, but a school of behaviors and attitudes towards people." ← I'm wondering whether the difference between different programming paradigms is about the symmetries that the programmer thinks about while programming (or that they can exploit to avoid having to think about while programming)
< 1764353721 513216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so like up to now the python ones have had more use, but this may flip over eventually
< 1764353770 357545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think that it's also about how anthropomorphized assumptions can sneak into technical discussions, get laundered memetically, and turn into tribal beliefs about in- and out-groups.
< 1764353781 407218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a great example from a programming language family that hardly anyone uses nowadays: imagine a function that takes an integer argument, and does some calculations on it, assigns to a global variable, and does some more calculations on it
< 1764353798 754585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Fortran?
< 1764353800 163504 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, to some extent, the difference between tribes is whether they carry certain memes which espouse those differences.
< 1764353800 593833 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in call-by-name languages, the programmer has to worry about the potential that the argument's value might change as a result of the assignment
< 1764353819 88482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Fortran's call-by-reference, not call-by-name, but I guess the same thing can happen there too
< 1764353860 703540 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1764353868 125761 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is for sure tribalism *around* paradigms but it doesn't feel to me like a necessarily essential feaure of the paradigms themselves – there's also tribalism around specific languages and editors/IDEs and the like
< 1764353975 330497 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. I was writing a Smalltalk-ish parser yesterday, and looking at the criteria at [[functional paradigm]], I appear to have four out of five; the only one I'm missing is explicit adherence to Lisp, ML, or APL syntax.
< 1764353999 373013 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There just isn't a *there* there, to paraphrase the philosophers of mind.
< 1764354058 931577 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that there can be paradigms which don't form tribes. Deep in the thread, I give tiling languages like Wang tiles as an example. But I also admit that perhaps if tiles were more popular than there *would* be cultural opinions which form into big memes.
< 1764354083 146659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I've suddenly started wondering about symmetries that aid programming thought that *aren't* normally considered paradigms
< 1764354102 599272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, object-capabilities seems to be one of them, but I don't think I've seen people describe those as a *paradigm*
< 1764354136 436695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, I'm reminded of the way that BIIA? is a counterexample to a very large number of assumptions people make about programming
< 1764354250 206475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If I were inclined to write a big essay about this, I might talk about how there seems to be a necessary phase where we are communicating on a blackboard using example syntax for pseudocode of one-liners, which eventually expands into a multi-line syntax with references to older lines, prior to the genesis of any new programming tradition.
< 1764354280 826360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, I think part of the problem is that what most programmers consider as paradigms actually don't match the symmetries well
< 1764354318 382290 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskells and MLs are often grouped together but there are clear significant differences in, e.g., how effects interact with the type system
< 1764354387 542441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the related phenomenon of "language features that aren't part of the computational model but are commonly found in a particular family of languages", probably due to people not copying features from different paradigms often enough even when they would make perfect sense
< 1764354389 643484 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, cross-linguistic symmetries? Akin to cognates, vowel and consonant patterns, that sort of thing?
< 1764354409 657993 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, I mean the symmetries of Haskell are different from the symmetries of ML
< 1764354439 730098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell is designed to mostly make evaluation order non-observable (although this isn't perfect and breaks down in the fact of nontermination), in ML it does matter
< 1764354504 415160 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not just non-termination but speed of execution as well, but sure
< 1764354509 908199 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, in the Yanofsky sense. I started there but wasn't sure. Yeah, just because Haskell's descended from ML doesn't mean that Haskell's models are ML's models. Still, Haskell and ML can have extremely similar automorphisms, e.g. alpha-renaming.
< 1764354523 274219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I would prefer to group Haskell with, say, purer variants of Prolog than with ML (in that the "core" of Prolog is also a language where evaluation order matters primarily due to nontermination, although interpreters are more willing to add features in which evaluation order matters than Haskell is)
> 1764354529 310802 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169520&oldid=169341 5* 03BobSoftOfficial 5* (+194) 10
< 1764354566 932577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, if you consider that part of the model / abstract machine / intended use for the program
< 1764354579 257298 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know, I have the feeling that the core of Prolog where execution order doesn't matter is not very useful as a programming language
< 1764354592 834078 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's useful on codegolf sites
< 1764354606 426971 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I See
< 1764354623 737739 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, "Prolog but the interpreter messes with evaluation order to try to ensure that if a program can terminate, it does terminate" is a language I've often wished to have available in CGCC challenges
< 1764354632 889315 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even made a start on writing a language like that, but it stalled for unrelated reasons
> 1764354720 338924 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169521&oldid=94635 5* 03BobSoftOfficial 5* (+1097) 10
< 1764354786 136278 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Unrestricted Zaddy's execution model is a variation on that, "Prolog but all evaluations are done in parallel and termination becomes more likely with each iteration". Using the Las Vegas approach where programs won't be incorrect but have unpredictable runtime based on ordering.
> 1764354791 828638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169522&oldid=169521 5* 03BobSoftOfficial 5* (+111) 10
> 1764354811 619547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169523&oldid=169522 5* 03BobSoftOfficial 5* (-13) 10
< 1764354813 111083 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was going to use static analysis to show whether termination is possible. But there are other showstopping semantic issues that I've yet to resolve.
< 1764354814 285584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I feel like a) many paradigms are diluted by bad definitions and languages that don't achieve the goals they set out to achieve, and b) many languages are successful because they do something that isn't actually connected to the core idea behind the language and could easily be imported into other languages, but is useful on its own
< 1764354880 433675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course. languages can be successful because they have a lot of good libraries with interface for the language already available, regardless of how useful the core language is
< 1764354897 108482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe the reason why Java was so successful is not related to its "object orientation" features, but rather because it supports "documentation-based abstraction" sufficiently well to be usable by large teams (i.e. the principle that if a subroutine/function/method is documented correctly, you can use it entirely by looking at its documentation without having to look at its internals)
< 1764354900 132560 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(b) is something we don't study enough. I still want to understand the Python-to-Go pipeline, for example.
< 1764354943 23087 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of languages are capable of doing that, and we take it for granted nowadays – but at the time Java first became successful I don't think it was common for programming teams to work like that
< 1764354943 848654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :don't most non-esoteric languages support documentation-based abstraction?
< 1764354970 797422 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe Java makes it easier
< 1764355003 176454 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION sorts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_documentation_generators by date
< 1764355010 386000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good type system certainly helps for that because it guides you in how to use the library interface correctly and makes it harder to accidentally call it incorrectliy
< 1764355044 903794 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :looks like Javadoc is from 1995, the same as perldoc, and the only earlier one listed is mkd which I doubt was ever widely used
< 1764355095 908638 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so Java may have been the first widely-used language to combine a documentation generator with a static type system
< 1764355137 43997 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this was really eye-opening to me when I first learned Java, I thought "so this is why Java is used by big companies, I understand, it lets a team of programmers create something together without all needing to personally hold the entire program in their head"
< 1764355159 49868 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nowadays, this isn't interesting, any serious statically-typed programming language does the same thing
< 1764355306 159951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: those documentation generators like rustdoc can be annoying because they work for just one language so they try to turn a language to a religion, sort of like the language-specific build tools and package distribution systems do. like you can use rustdoc to make this fancy webpage with javascript search built into it, but then you can only search for rust interfaces. Doxygen is a doc generator 
< 1764355306 772556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Java does it better than many, though – e.g. in Rust I miss being able to document individual function/method parameters in addition to the function/method as a whole
< 1764355312 166986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that supports multiple languages, and I think at one point OpenCV even had API docs that showed interfaces in four different languages (C++, python, Java, C) for the same function next to each other at some point
> 1764355323 178528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ksplang/instructions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169524&oldid=169191 5* 03Sejsel 5* (-9) 10/*  - tetration */ Fix up tetration
< 1764355351 188221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"document individual function/method parameters" => Doxygen can sort of but not quite do that
< 1764355363 780142 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: apart from the user interface for its build system which is actually really good, Rust's tooling feels kind-of primitive in comparison to its competitors
< 1764355426 202649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like Rust's tooling because it tries to buy you into a system where you can't easily combine it with compilation units combpiled by other languages. just use make like a normal person and then you can mix languages more easily. the language and compiler actually supports that well.
< 1764355436 264675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the tests feel a lot worse than Perl's, the documentation generator doesn't encourage you to document all the relevant aspects of a function/method the way Java's does, sometimes there are multiple places something can be reasonably documented and it's unclear which to use, etc.
< 1764355451 936177 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :heck, the user interface for the build system even wants to encourage you to download packages from the central package distribution site.
< 1764355521 217334 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh yes, I hate the way dependencies work in Rust
< 1764355530 567399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said it does make it very easy to replace crates.io with distro packaging
< 1764355599 632666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my .cargo/config.toml is (with newline replaced with " \ "): «[source] \ [source.debian] \ directory="/usr/share/cargo/registry" \ [source.crates-io] \ replace-with="debian"»
< 1764355608 947312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's all I have to do to configure the build system to use distro packages instead
< 1764355627 448341 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it transparently applies across all builds I do from a user who has the dotfile
< 1764355653 306926 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the equivalent in C is much harder, if the build system doesn't pick up distro packages on its own it is often a pain to configure it to do so
> 1764355677 738347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dog14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169525&oldid=169523 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-1195) 10revert
< 1764355698 409812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and one of the reasons I gave up on the "Prolog with changed evaluation order" golfing language is that I was writing it in OCaml but couldn't figure out how to link in libraries at all
> 1764355709 30226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Dog (BobSoftOfficial)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169526 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1580) 10move page
> 1764355778 457110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:BobSoftOfficial14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169527 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+473) 10Created page with "hello, just letting you know that I've moved your esolang to [[Dog (BobSoftOfficial)]] to prevent conflict with the esolang that was already described on that page (which you overwrote) ~~~~"
> 1764356013 68384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07psilon14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169528 5* 03Hammy2 5* (+459) 10Created page with "{{lowercase}} psilon is just a normal programming language, right? No. It has a special value called  that is 1/0. This is by [[User:Hammy]] and was made in like 1 minute lol ==Commands== <pre> i </pre> input <pre> an expression </pre> output the result as ascii <pre> an e
> 1764356267 982917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/test14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169529 5* 03Hammy2 5* (+120) 10Created page with "Hello, world!  This page is made to see if you can transclude pages onto themselves.  Anyways, bye!  {{User:Hammy/test}}"
> 1764356445 573576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/test114]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169530 5* 03Hammy2 5* (+390) 10Created page with ":''For my previous attempt, see [[User:Hammy/test]]. It didn't work.'' I'm trying to transclude pages onto themselves.  I'm trying a different trick: oscillating.  This has another page transcluded onto it, and that has this transcluded onto it.  There should be 
> 1764356493 415514 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/test214]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169531 5* 03Hammy2 5* (+93) 10Created page with "Hi!  This is the other transclusion page of [[User:Hammy/test1]].  Bye.  {{User:Hammy/test1}}"
< 1764356584 474647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I like how MediaWiki gives a clearer error message for template loops nowadays than it used to
< 1764356621 499516 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was also amused to see how many template loops we already have (there's an autocategory for them) – it's an obvious thing for budding esoprogrammers to try, and they're all in userspace
< 1764357242 869061 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1764358135 280508 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1764358155 234748 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1764358246 109860 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1764359864 735621 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1764359877 100937 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1764360486 617624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169532&oldid=169459 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+0) 10
> 1764362288 439586 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/test114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169533&oldid=169530 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+12) 10Esolangist alt
> 1764362329 907504 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/test114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169534&oldid=169533 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+25) 10Esolangist alt
> 1764362842 344751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/Template:Recursive14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169535 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+53) 10Created page with "{{#if: {{{1}}} | {{{{{1}}}}} | {{{{FULLPAGENAME}}}}}}"
> 1764362932 794265 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/Template:Recursive/docs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169536 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+183) 10Esolangist alt
< 1764363176 489533 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1764363180 228400 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/Template:Recursive14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169537&oldid=169535 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+227) 10Esolangist alt
< 1764363453 104806 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1764364278 700978 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hammy/Template:Whoops14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169538 5* 03Esolangist alt 5* (+638) 10Created page with "''{{#if: {{{1}}} | Whoops! Maybe you were looking for [[{{{1}}}]]{{#if: {{{2}}} | , or [[{{{2}}}]]}}? | Whoops! Maybe you were looking for... Hmm... Wait, someone forgot to add a parameter to the template! Wait, did I just break the fourth wall?
< 1764368087 377623 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:5d9f:ed41:eaf:6c93 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1764368379 324806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Esolangist alt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169539&oldid=167024 5* 03 5* (-5) 10Fixing double redirect
> 1764369008 261883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169540&oldid=169447 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1764369066 719488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169541&oldid=169501 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1764369084 973704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Phind14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169542 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1826) 10Created page with "{{Stub}} Phind Is An Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2022.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | < || Left/down -wards Once, Starts as Left. |- | > || Right/up -wards Once, starts As up. |- | ~ || Swap The left/down / Right/
> 1764369101 286459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Phind14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169543&oldid=169542 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1) 10
> 1764369361 923841 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169544&oldid=169532 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+917) 10
< 1764369420 616110 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1764370140 834991 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1764370225 539451 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1764370550 252932 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1764370741 301972 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1764371295 593434 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:9176:7929:ae5a:d4f6 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1764372655 561142 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169545&oldid=169460 5* 03Waffelz 5* (+229) 10
> 1764372877 784766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169546 5* 03 5* (+94) 10Created page with "* {background-color:black !important; color:whitesmoke !important;} a {color:lime !important;}"
> 1764372976 490017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169547&oldid=169546 5* 03 5* (-68) 10
> 1764372988 661025 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169548&oldid=169547 5* 03 5* (+1) 10
> 1764373030 395270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169549&oldid=169548 5* 03 5* (+2) 10
> 1764373048 285494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169550&oldid=169549 5* 03 5* (-1) 10
> 1764373058 14954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/common.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169551&oldid=169550 5* 03 5* (-28) 10Blanked the page