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02:32:10 <korvo> waffelz__: Welcome to IRC.
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02:40:44 <korvo> waffelz: Welcome to IRC. (Again?)
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03:44:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169552&oldid=169545 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+169) /* issue with your proof of Tea's turing-completeness */
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04:05:17 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169553&oldid=169508 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-19) /* Computational class */ delete the "caption text" since It was the only text.
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04:33:44 <esolangs> [[K+len(p)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169554 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1628) Created page with "{{Lowercase}} '''k+len(p)'''(pronounced kay-len) is a variant of [[|_]] created by [[User:Yayimhere]], simply to be closer to turing complete. it features the whole _ command set but one command, but the esolang is also with three extra commands == Command s
04:37:39 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169555&oldid=169482 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+62)
04:40:28 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169556&oldid=169544 * Waffelz * (-11)
04:45:30 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169557&oldid=169555 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* Operations */
05:02:41 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169558&oldid=169557 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+26) /* Operations */
05:05:11 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169559&oldid=169556 * Waffelz * (+25)
05:05:24 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169560&oldid=169559 * Waffelz * (+1)
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06:12:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169561&oldid=169172 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+401) /* Category:Golfing language should be moved to Category:Golfing languages */
06:13:15 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169562&oldid=169560 * Waffelz * (-6)
06:16:14 <esolangs> [[Tea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169563&oldid=169562 * Waffelz * (+43)
06:17:52 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169564&oldid=169558 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+10) /* Examples */
06:19:21 <esolangs> [[Tea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169565&oldid=169563 * Waffelz * (-8) /* Errors */
06:30:40 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169566&oldid=169564 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+30) /* Operations */
06:43:23 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169567&oldid=169565 * Waffelz * (+45)
06:50:51 <esolangs> [[Yuontlitled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169568&oldid=169566 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+106) /* Operations */
07:04:18 <esolangs> [[Oxen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169569&oldid=169504 * None1 * (+20) /* Interpreter in Python */
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07:41:50 <esolangs> [[Hexad]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169570&oldid=169510 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* Commands */
08:11:00 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169571&oldid=169567 * RainbowDash * (+740) Cyclic tag
08:13:52 <esolangs> [[Tea]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169572&oldid=169571 * RainbowDash * (+41) /* Cyclic Tag System */
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08:19:20 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169573&oldid=169572 * RainbowDash * (+169) /* Cyclic Tag System */
09:17:23 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169574&oldid=169573 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-9) /* Proof of Turing completeness */ Change to computational class
10:04:00 <esolangs> [[Push Pop Filter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169575 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2395) Created page with "'''Push Pop Filter''' or '''PPF''' is an esolang devised by [[User:Yayimhere]], to be a good simple excursive to implement. == Memory == Push Pop Filter uses two stacks. One stack can be initialized, called the main stack, and another cannot. It also
10:07:46 <esolangs> [[Push Pop Filter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169576&oldid=169575 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+35)
10:08:17 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169577&oldid=169488 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+22) /* esolangs */
10:18:44 <esolangs> [[.chat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169578&oldid=169476 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-144) /* Computational class */
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10:44:27 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169579 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+586) Created page with "'''A Combinator Language''' or ACL is an esolang created by [[User:Yayimhere]], as a very minimal, and specifically NOT turing complete combinator calculus. Its name is also incredibly lazy, however still more creative than [[APL]]. == Combinator
10:44:29 <esolangs> [[Abstraction]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169580 * Timm * (+415) Created page with "one instruction has 4 bits but for making instructions 3 bits 4th bit is useless ">0<000" i show with this > i'm useless bit; 0;000 0000 00000100 set reg 0 to 4<sub>P.S. all instructions have reg</sub> 0;001 0000 00000100 set reg2 0 to 4 0;010 0;0;00 00000001 set acc
10:44:53 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169581&oldid=169475 * Timm * (+23)
10:45:07 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169582&oldid=169581 * Timm * (+4)
10:45:20 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169583&oldid=169579 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+46) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
10:45:31 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169584&oldid=169583 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-17) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
10:49:06 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169585&oldid=169582 * Timm * (+7)
10:50:11 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169586&oldid=169584 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+13) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
10:51:25 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169587&oldid=169586 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+13) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
10:51:36 <esolangs> [[A Combinator Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169588&oldid=169587 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Combinators/lambda expressions */
11:01:16 <esolangs> [[Waves]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169589&oldid=168972 * Timm * (+104)
11:01:49 <esolangs> [[Waves]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169590&oldid=169589 * Timm * (-44)
11:04:47 <esolangs> [[4ByteJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169591&oldid=169473 * Timm * (+23)
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12:00:48 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Lime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169592 * Hammy * (+17) Created page with "[[File:Logo.png]]"
12:02:09 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Template:Limelimelime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169593 * Hammy * (+1329) Created page with "<div class="nolaggy-effects" style="display:none;position:absolute;top:0;right:0">[[File:Logo.png|80px|link=]]</div><div class="laggy-effects"> {{User:Hammy/Lime|S=300|X=0|Y=300|O=0.4|T=1.2|N=lime1}} {{User:Hammy/Lime|S=400|X=200|Y=100|O=0.35|T=1.
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12:36:57 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169594&oldid=169326 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+3116) trilime + scratch + haskell
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14:23:51 <esolangs> [[Summary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169595 * BestCoder * (+1390) Created page with "Summary is a list of numbers where the sum of consecutive numbers determines the command == Interpreter == def interpret(nums): stack = [] i = 0 while i < len(nums)-1: sum_ = nums[i]+nums[i+1] if sum_ == 1: if i+2 < len(
14:27:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Waffelz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169596&oldid=169457 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+161) /* Tea */
14:28:06 <esolangs> [[DQ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169597&oldid=165041 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-39)
14:44:03 <esolangs> [[Needle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169598&oldid=169429 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+53) Replaced halt with unconditional jump which was used to simulate it and updated the example program
14:46:37 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169599&oldid=165386 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+14) /* A */ Added Autopsy
14:51:15 <esolangs> [[Pointer-based Minsky machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169600&oldid=144813 * 47 * (-8)
14:52:37 <esolangs> [[Num Rect]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169601 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1521) Created page with "'''Num Rect''' is a variant/encoding of [[RECT4n=GLE]] that is 1 dimensional, and may be useful for reasoning about the language itself. It is a sort of run length encoding. == Encoding == Every program takes the form: ''symbol'' | ''symb
14:56:33 <esolangs> [[Num Rect]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169602&oldid=169601 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-64) /* Encoding */
14:56:45 <esolangs> [[Num Rect]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169603&oldid=169602 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+7) /* Example/Translation */
14:57:36 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169604&oldid=169472 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-31) /* example programs */
14:58:38 <esolangs> [[RECT4n=GLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169605&oldid=169604 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+31) /* External resources */
15:02:58 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169606&oldid=167439 * PrySigneToFry * (+585)
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15:04:35 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169607&oldid=169606 * PrySigneToFry * (+5)
15:12:03 <esolangs> [[StackBit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169608&oldid=164477 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+114) Added TC proof for reversible
15:23:29 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169609&oldid=169607 * * (+73) /* Proposals of PrySigneToFry */
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15:42:59 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169610&oldid=169609 * Esolangist alt * (+6) Esolangist alt
15:44:28 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169611&oldid=169610 * Esolangist alt * (+104) Esolangist alt
15:45:48 <ais523> still sleeping at the wrong time of day, and having trouble changing it
15:46:10 <Yayimhere> hope you at some point will be able to change it
15:46:23 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169612&oldid=169611 * Esolangist alt * (+94) Esolangist alt
15:48:06 <ais523> hmm, I saw your ACL, and it got me thinking about APL again (in particular, what features a language needs to have to be considered an APL)
15:48:36 <ais523> there's a marketing/recruitment person at one of the big APL companies who often advertises at esolangers due to thinking that they would be some of the best people to understand APL
15:48:52 <ais523> who thinks that Jelly is an APL due to the array-processing and tacit nature of it
15:49:06 <Yayimhere> i marked it as APL-like since the symbols, and functions I guess
15:49:10 <ais523> but I'm wondering how far you can stray from that formula before the language stops being an APL
15:49:26 <ais523> it's APL-resembling in syntax
15:49:46 <ais523> and APL does have the "concatenation = composition" rule, at least sometimes
15:49:53 <ais523> hmm, does this meant that APL Is a concatenative language?
15:52:46 <Yayimhere> but not one for me to answer, as I do not have much experience with concatenative languages
15:52:55 <esolangs> [[Rune]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169613 * Timm * (+719) Created page with "<big></big> another name of this esolang <big></big> xu /xu/ do print top of stack <big></big> xo invert value 0 - 255 <big></big> ho start the program <big></big> xa push to stack in this way {| class="wikitable" |+ numbers<sub>order is small...big numbers</sub> |- ! rune
15:53:36 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169614&oldid=169585 * Timm * (+17)
15:53:43 <ais523> to me it's an awkward question to answer because concatenativeness is really a property of syntax, and the syntax of languages like APL and Jelly isn't quite concatenative over small scales but is over larger scales
15:55:24 <ais523> e.g. in Jelly, Ḥ+ is λ(x,y).2x+y, 3 calculates 3, and Ḥ+3 calculates λx.2x+3 or λ(x,y).2x+3
15:55:27 <Yayimhere> also, ais523, how did you happen to stumble upon ACL?
15:55:48 <ais523> mostly looking for rules-breaking edits but sometimes i find interesting non-rules-breaking edits instead
15:56:07 <ais523> or people asking for admin help
15:56:33 <esolangs> [[Summary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169615&oldid=169595 * BestCoder * (+53) /* Interpreter */
15:56:36 <ais523> I didn't really evaluate the set of combinators
15:56:58 <ais523> actually, composition in that language is application, not concatenation
15:57:00 <Yayimhere> it was a language created to be the across in Along and Across
15:57:46 <ais523> which is quite a speciifc difference from at least Jelly (I'm not sure how you do function application in APL or if it even has higher-order functions)
15:58:03 <esolangs> [[Summary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169616&oldid=169615 * BestCoder * (+2002)
15:58:10 <ais523> or, well, I know how to apply a function to an array, just not how to apply it to another function
16:00:02 <Yayimhere> i dont know if I should try and learn APL
16:00:37 <FireFly> I think it has operators that can apply to functions/data and produce new functions, but it's more explicitly second-order I think(?)
16:00:54 <FireFly> at least extrapolating from what I know about J, but my APL-family knowledge is.. a bit rusty
16:02:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169617&oldid=169561 * Ais523 * (+841) /* Category:Register based */ some thoughts
16:03:15 <ais523> Yayimhere: I think the idea of array programming is worth learning, but APL may be a bad language to learn it from, it has a lot of other unfamiliar features which aren't inherently linked to the basic concept and will be distractions
16:05:47 <ais523> there is a domain-specific language I was working on (not an esolang) which wasn't originally an array programming language, but then I realised that it would be much easier to understand (and possibly implement) if I redesigned it as an array programming language
16:07:06 <ais523> modern compilers often try to SIMDify code, but often aren't very good at it
16:07:46 <ais523> they start with a non-SIMD version of the program and try to recompile it as SIMD but things often go wrong (either due to the compiler coming up with an unnecessarily complex solution or due to it being unable to prove that the optimisation is correct)
16:08:24 <ais523> so my approach was to design a language which only supported operations that were guaranteed to SIMDify correctly, with the intention of using to write the inner loops in programs that wanted to have SIMD inner loops
16:08:50 <ais523> (this also has the theoretical advantage that it should port to GPUs pretty easily)
16:10:11 <ais523> the particular problem that caused the issue for me is that I wanted to SIMDify an algorithm that had a widening multiply in it
16:10:19 <ais523> current compilers are able to do that, but they do it very inefficiently
16:11:23 <ais523> let's use the example of "widening-multiply two values and add the halves together", and use letters to represent different array elements
16:12:45 <ais523> the compilers are doing abcdefgh × jklmnopq = AJBKCLDM, ENFOGPHQ where, e.g., AJ is the doubly-wide version of A×J
16:13:13 <ais523> but it would be much more efficient to multiply them as AJCLENGP, BKDMFOHQ
16:13:26 <ais523> because then the values don't have to move around as much within the register
16:13:38 <ais523> all the values end up close to where they originally came from
16:14:06 <ais523> most modern processors only have one vector shuffler, so they can only move around values within one SIMD register at a time
16:14:30 <ais523> and so vector shuffling becomes a huge bottleneck if you implement it the compiler's way
16:16:19 <korvo> ais523: That's definitely an APLish perspective.
16:16:31 <ais523> korvo: what are you referring to with "that"?
16:16:33 <korvo> We've got another chess game at [[user:esolangist/chess]].
16:16:54 <korvo> ais523: Like, ^^^^. The whole idea of a SIMD-oriented language with that sort of vectorized-first thinkin.
16:17:03 <ais523> korvo: oh yes, it's definitely an array programming language
16:17:13 <korvo> Yayimhere: It's not allowed. If people want to play chess then they can go to one of the big public chess servers.
16:17:15 <ais523> but it took me a while to notice, and adapt the syntax to match
16:17:18 <ais523> because I was thinking too operationally
16:17:28 <Yayimhere> korvo: yea ok I would have guessed
16:17:40 <ais523> Yayimhere: the risk is that Esolang ends up being classified as a social media site, in which case it would get banned in several countries and nobody wants that
16:18:06 <ais523> (either banned, or under so many regulations that we wouldn't be able to comply with it and then it would effectively be banned)
16:18:35 <esolangs> [[Onecommand]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169618 * Esolangist alt * (+772) Esolangist alt
16:20:09 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169619 * Timm * (+366) Created page with "not [[]] <nowiki>:]</nowiki>:) var value arguments code list id parentheses ...} are number x ...} are number x*10 function code name has loop is code is null var change invert sign of number if a to b A code is == is => is =! is !> is output is i
16:20:27 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169620&oldid=169619 * Timm * (-1)
16:20:55 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169621&oldid=169614 * Timm * (+8)
16:21:06 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169622&oldid=169621 * Timm * (+1)
16:21:21 <Yayimhere> ais523: to go back on "topic" did you ever complete the language?
16:22:08 <ais523> no – I ran into problems trying to implement the parser, and I was working on a parser generator separately at the time
16:22:15 <ais523> so I decided to prioritise work on the parser generator instead
16:39:59 <Yayimhere> also, korvo, since your here, you've gotten me to interpret my languages more
16:41:13 <korvo> Yayimhere: Glad to hear that. FWIW I went ahead and made an expression language and parser for Vixen: https://bpa.st/TCLA
16:42:05 <korvo> It's a pretty small language! Not every Smalltalk descendant literally fits on a card, but this one does.
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16:51:08 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169623&oldid=169612 * * (+139) If you wanna start, then add your move. If you don't wanna play, you can remove my board.
16:53:42 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy/Template:Whoops2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169624 * Esolangist alt * (+416) Esolangist alt
17:07:21 <esolangs> [[User talk:Esolangist/Chess]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169625 * Corbin * (+183) Created page with "Hi! This page may be deleted. In general, the wiki isn't a social-media site and we don't host gaming. ~~~~"
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17:32:55 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169626&oldid=168155 * Esolangist alt * (+405) Esolangist alt
17:37:07 <esolangs> [[User:Esolangist/Chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169627&oldid=169623 * Esolangist alt * (-1837) Esolangist alt
17:38:03 <korvo> Well, that was dramatic. While it was effective, I'm not sure that such a heavy-handed intervention was appropriate; I could have been more polite.
17:38:31 <Yayimhere> do we have stated rules on the wiki about this?
17:39:16 <Yayimhere> "Articles should be on the subject of esoteric programming languages, or about subjects relevant to these, for example computation theory." is that
17:39:16 <ais523> Yayimhere: no; I've been meaning to write some for a while but would need to be very careful to get them right
17:39:32 <ais523> and there are limits to how much time I can spend on the wiki
17:39:41 <korvo> Not yet. I can write something up. It is existentially important that the wiki not be considered social media, but so far we haven't needed to point at the rules.
17:42:30 <ais523> I am possibly too forgiving as a moderator (which can make me seem unfair sometimes – because if I don't shut down rulebreaking straight away it looks more arbitrary when I shut it down later)
17:44:19 <Yayimhere> Hopefully this isnt off topic, but how did the APL creators come up with so many symbols
17:47:09 <ais523> it's old enough that it wasn't obvious that this was a bad way to do things
17:47:31 <Yayimhere> I would love to hear thee process of making each symbol
17:47:32 <ais523> nowdays we have standardised character sets that we know that most people can type
17:47:58 <Yayimhere> how was APL's alphabet added to unicode?
17:48:01 <ais523> but at the time there weren't really standards
17:48:33 <ais523> Unicode aims to support all existing character codings at the time it was created, at least some files existed that were written in APL characters, so Unicode added them
17:49:22 <ais523> the same thing is what lead to emoji – there was some obscure Japanese text messaging format which decided to add emoji at otherwise unused codepoints
17:49:38 <ais523> and Unicode added them too, so it could represent the old text messages, and ended up popularising them
17:50:53 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#History
17:51:02 <ais523> I seem to remember the early history of Unicode was really complicated
17:51:22 <ais523> partly because companies started getting involved and that always makes things more complicated, partly because they underestimated how many codepoints they would need
17:53:17 <ais523> there's a quote on Wikipedia about saying that they were sure that there would be less than 16384 characters to cover, but it turns out that Chinese/Japanese/Korean covered over 20,000 even if you considered similar-looking characters in different languages to be the same
17:53:37 <strerror> "APL creators" — wasn't it all just Iverson
17:53:38 <korvo> Yayimhere: AIUI there are still some APL symbols that aren't in Unicode. Unicode's main goal is to include the tools of natlangs, and APL's not actually part of that mission. Other examples of orthographies not in Unicode include Klingon and Solresol.
17:54:15 <Yayimhere> strerror: I would guess theres more but I have no real idea
17:55:02 <ais523> korvo: it wouldn't surprise me if Unicode's goals have become fuzzier over time
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17:55:46 <korvo> ais523: You can always give me admin tools. You can ask me to stick to an articles-for-deletion process and only delete articles that everybody has agreed should be deleted. I honestly admire your good judgement in not trusting me with that.
17:55:52 * korvo just a little Iago
17:56:06 <strerror> And in fact the notation came first, before computers became available to implement it on
17:56:40 <ais523> I'm actually not sure I've ever made anyone an admin
17:56:47 <ais523> I think I'm technically capable of doing so, but have never needed to check
17:57:06 <ais523> because there have always been (and still are) higher-ranking admins, so normally they would do it instead
17:57:09 <strerror> (Similar to when McCarthy invented Lisp, it was initially notation)
17:57:11 <ais523> ("most active" ≠ "highest ranking")
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18:03:29 <strerror> Wikipedia: “In 1963, Falkoff, Iverson, and Edward H. Sussenguth Jr., all working at IBM, used the notation for a formal description of the IBM System/360 series machine ...” — perhaps multiple people were needed to turn APL into an executable language
18:05:54 <korvo> Oh, I didn't actually say it last time. Yayimhere, most languages start as blackboard notation for programmers collaborating together. First as small expressions, then one-liners, then multi-line programs with some sort of stored procedure or routine.
18:06:24 <korvo> Relevant Perlis quotes: "Over the centuries the Indians developed sign language for communicating phenomena of interest. Programmers from different tribes (FORTRAN, LISP, ALGOL, SNOBOL, etc.) could use one that doesn't require them to carry a blackboard on their ponies."
18:06:58 <korvo> "It is not a language's weakness but its strengths that control the gradient of its change: Alas, a language never escapes its embryonic sac." Both from the standard quote page: https://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html
18:07:47 <strerror> ais523: what would a language need to express that example with the SIMD vector shuffle? I guess you'd like a compiler to figure out the layout that is cheapest on the target processor, but that sounds even harder than what current auto-vectorizers already have to do with a known layout (and IME with AVX2, they often don't generate efficient instruction sequences)
18:08:45 <ais523> strerror: I think this is possible just as a compiler optimisation, you basically just look at the addresses that are being read and written and do the even element / odd element split when working with values that are wider than the spacing between addresses
18:09:09 <ais523> korvo: I think this is historically true but less common nowadays
18:09:35 <ais523> languages like Go and Swift were intentionally created from scratch to solve particular problems the companies creating them had
18:11:27 <korvo> ais523: I think that it's morally close enough when we think about how we want to turn traditional expressions of engineering into computerized expressions. I might suggest that FORTH is a fundamentally different approach to growing a language, tied to its interpreter and interactive session rather than a blackboard.
18:11:51 <ais523> there are so many ways that programming languages get created
18:12:02 <ais523> especially with the simple computational models, they're often more discovered than engineered
18:12:10 <ais523> (e.g. The Waterfall Model and Genera Tag)
18:12:45 <Yayimhere> like what does it mean to discover a language?
18:13:06 <ais523> well, when you're programming you have various mental representations of the steps you're going through
18:13:15 <ais523> which don't necessarily exactly match the language you're usign
18:13:15 <strerror> ais523: yes that would work for widening operations. I thought you were using it as an example of something more general
18:13:28 <ais523> so that's one way to discover a langauge
18:14:00 <Yayimhere> is another way perhaps "oh thats an obvious way to simplify [other thing]"?
18:14:07 <ais523> strerror: there might be a generalisation but if so I don't know what it is (other than the trivial generalisation to narrowing operations in which you represent the narrowed value using the full width of the original rather than trying to compress)
18:14:16 <ais523> Yayimhere: yes, I think so
18:14:25 <ais523> or not even obvious, just something I was messing around with
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18:14:44 <ais523> like, when I was looking into making INTERCAL Turing-complete without using expressions other than the constant #1
18:15:06 <ais523> the language I ended up with was The Waterfall Model (except with less undefined behaviour)
18:15:13 <ais523> but I didn't realise at the time because The Waterfall Model hadn't been invented
18:15:37 <ais523> then later on I was experimenting with short Jelly programs to see which of them were Turing-complete
18:16:23 <ais523> and came up with "take the minimum row of this square array, then add the first element of that row to each element of the first row, the second element of that row to each element of the second row, etc."
18:16:36 <ais523> that is *also* The Waterfall Model (except with less, and different, undefined behaviour)
18:16:51 <ais523> so now I had seen the same language twice without intentionally creating it either time
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18:17:32 <Yayimhere90> sorry I got disconnected were you saying anything?
18:17:48 <ais523> yes, was talking aobut the discovery of The Waterfall Model
18:18:09 <ais523> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2025-11-29.html#lXe
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18:18:43 <ais523> I used to get disconnected a lot, so I used to use them a lot
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19:17:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169628&oldid=169617 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+311) /* Category:Register based */
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19:55:37 <b_jonas> ais523: so I think "APL-like" is ambiguous because the late KEI put so many innovations into APL that it's not clear which one you're referring to. there are like ten different and somewhat overlapping things that you can be talking about just for syntax. there's that the language was intended to a large part as mathematical notation without computers first, and became a programming language later.
19:55:43 <b_jonas> there's that he managed to get high-school students access to an easily usable programming environment back when microcomputers didn't exist yet and computers existed mostly in universities – I'm pretty sure this one can no longer be replicated because microcomputers are here to stay. and then there's array programming, operating on whole arrays of multiple types, which helps both for optimization and
19:55:49 <b_jonas> expressivity. there are a lot of array languages or libraries now, but I think there's still space for them to develop, I feel like we haven't reached the peak, and they're getting more and more relevant as computers improve.
19:56:18 <ais523> weren't array languages historically fairly badly optimized?
19:56:27 <ais523> although some of the recent ones may work out better
19:57:08 <ais523> things like Futhark seem to have been designed from an optimisation-first point of view
19:58:31 <b_jonas> Yayimhere90: so KEI originally developped APL as pen and paper (or typewriter and paper) notation for mathematics, but later adapted it to programming, and for that he used Selectric teletypes in such a way that the symbols are composed from a small alphabet (maybe 80 glyphs) but many symbols are composed from two glyphs overstruck, which you input by pressing one glyph then pressing backspace then the
19:58:37 <b_jonas> second glyph. this overstriking tech has existed before APL, but APL uses it to a higher degree.
20:11:10 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169629 * RainbowDash * (+2203) create FFFF
20:12:02 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169630&oldid=169629 * RainbowDash * (-153) Fix info box
20:13:04 <esolangs> [[FFFF/Implementation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169631 * RainbowDash * (+2831) Created page with "This is an implementation of [[FFFF]] in Python by [[User:RainbowDash]]. <pre> from fractions import Fraction import sys def reduce_pair(a, b=None): """Convert inputs to Fraction, optionally divide by b, return as [numerator, denominator].""" i
20:13:28 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169632&oldid=169630 * RainbowDash * (+25)
20:52:40 <esolangs> [[Tea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169633&oldid=169574 * Waffelz * (+23)
20:55:48 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169634&oldid=169446 * NTMDev * (+69) /* Integers */
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21:18:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * RainbowDash * uploaded "[[File:Simplefsm.png]]": Fsm diagram for [[FFFF]]
21:21:15 <esolangs> [[FFFF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169636&oldid=169632 * RainbowDash * (+285) FSM
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21:25:58 <esolangs> [[User:RainbowDash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169637&oldid=167029 * RainbowDash * (+51)
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22:20:46 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169638&oldid=169540 * Buckets * (+14)
22:21:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169639&oldid=169541 * Buckets * (+15)
22:21:55 <esolangs> [[Ast*R***]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169640 * Buckets * (+1884) Created page with "Ast*R*** Is An esoteric programming Language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2023. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | # || This is A Wall. |- | S || This Is the Start Point. |- | E || This is the End point. |} It Will count the Four direction movem
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