2025-12-01: 00:41:04 [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169694&oldid=169675 * PrySigneToFry * (-37) 00:41:23 [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169695&oldid=169694 * PrySigneToFry * (-22) 00:42:31 [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169696&oldid=169695 * PrySigneToFry * (+54) 00:42:49 [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169697&oldid=169696 * PrySigneToFry * (+22) 00:42:56 -!- fungot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:46:34 -!- fungot has joined. 00:58:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:36:29 -!- amby has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:02:01 [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169698&oldid=163972 * Kleberlucas * (+133) added zig 0.15 implementation 02:16:45 [[Nein.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169699 * Kleberlucas * (+245) Created page with "'''Nein.''' works just like [[Nope.]], but instead of printing Nope., it prints Nein. . I wonder if somebody will ever make an implementation for this esolang. Note: made by [[User:Kleberlucas]]. [[Category:Languages]]" 02:18:46 [[Nein.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169700&oldid=169699 * Aadenboy * (+161) 02:21:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:25:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:27:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:27:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 02:32:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:38:03 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:04:41 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:04:59 -!- chiselfuse has joined. 03:25:54 [[FFFF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169701&oldid=169649 * RainbowDash * (+0) /* Example FSM encoding. */ 03:34:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:34:43 -!- svm has joined. 03:35:55 -!- chloetax9 has joined. 03:36:01 -!- Trigon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:36:37 -!- nitrix_ has joined. 03:36:45 -!- chloetax has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:36:45 -!- chloetax9 has changed nick to chloetax. 03:36:54 -!- Trigon has joined. 03:37:13 -!- msv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:13 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:13 -!- yc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:13 -!- nitrix has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:15 -!- avih_ has joined. 03:37:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:49 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:37:49 -!- avih has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:38:23 -!- nitrix_ has changed nick to nitrix. 03:38:31 -!- b_jonas has joined. 03:39:58 -!- chloetax7 has joined. 03:42:01 -!- chloetax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:42:02 -!- chloetax7 has changed nick to chloetax. 03:43:17 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 03:58:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:19:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:11:46 [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/Four-player-chess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169702&oldid=169697 * PrySigneToFry * (+901) Maybe I must put the notice here. 05:15:16 -!- pool54 has changed nick to pool. 05:19:07 [[User:PrySigneToFry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169703&oldid=168259 * PrySigneToFry * (+2059) 05:20:48 [[User:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169704&oldid=169703 * PrySigneToFry * (+48) 05:39:52 -!- chomwitt_alt has joined. 07:31:50 -!- tromp has joined. 07:57:15 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[NAME EXPUNGED]]": inappropriate content 07:57:56 -!- svm has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:58:01 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Fuck 2red]]": author request, no useful content 07:58:01 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Fuck 2red]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: author request, no useful content 07:59:06 zzo38: I think I've heard the name "translation database" before but am not sure how good a fit it is 07:59:21 -!- msv has joined. 07:59:36 -!- msv has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:00:00 -!- msv has joined. 08:05:26 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 08:05:35 hello 08:07:52 hi Yayimhere 08:08:18 I landed an interview on Esoteric.codes yesterday 08:08:25 which is great 08:09:07 -!- chiselfuse has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:09:20 -!- chiselfuse has joined. 08:09:40 ah, looks like it hasn't been posted yet 08:09:48 lol 08:09:49 but it's interesting to see a range of different perspectives 08:09:49 yea 08:09:55 ais523: yea 08:09:58 I will look forward to it 08:10:14 we haven't actually done it yet, because Daniel just got done with his book 08:10:20 ais523: Thanks! 08:16:49 I've been busy with other things for a while (and am still a bit busy) so I haven't got much esolanging done 08:18:54 oh well, thats ok 08:19:07 I should propably slow down 08:19:19 on the esolanging, and speed up on other things 08:24:31 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 08:25:55 hm 08:26:42 `(np)/q == p/(qn)` if and only If n = 1 or -1 08:26:43 hmmm 08:26:44 ​(np)/q? No such file or directory 08:26:48 lol 08:26:58 that could be interesting as a conditional 08:27:50 maybe a Fractran style list of fractions 08:28:06 where `n=(np)/q` if and only if `(np)/q == p/(qn)` 08:28:31 this simplifies to n/x == x/n or if you have constants, n == 1/n 08:28:42 true 08:28:48 hm 08:29:03 and it rearranges to n*n == 1 08:29:10 yea 08:29:12 (which then means it works with integer arithmetic) 08:29:21 (which is epic) 08:29:42 well then it would be `n=(np)/q` if `n*n == 1` 08:29:58 I think the normal situation where this sort of thing is useful is when you don't have control flow available at all and are just trying to simulate it using unconditional calculations on variables 08:30:11 yea 08:30:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:30:43 languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Blindfolded_Arithmetic or ELEMENTARY (which isn't documented on the wiki yet, I need to get round to it) 08:30:52 yea 08:31:25 `n=(np)/q if n*n == 1 else p/q=n` 08:31:26 n=(np)/q? No such file or directory 08:31:39 as in solve for `p/q=n` for both `p & q` 08:36:07 now I'm busy reading up on ELEMENTARY to see if I can document it 08:36:24 Wikipedia used to have some amount of description on it as a language but it seems to have been deleted, possibly due to lack of sources 08:36:45 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:36:48 it's sort-of like Blindfolded Arithmetic but with more operators and without the loop (so it's sub-Turing-complete, but pretty powerful) 08:43:57 -!- tromp has joined. 08:48:43 -!- pool has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:55:14 ais523: btw, i mentioned few times that https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck has better optimizations than any other bf compiler/interpreter i saw, but i looked at the code, and as far as i can tell it has a big list of "canned" patterns it tries to identify and address, so not as generic as i hoped it would be. still very good though 08:55:21 -!- avih_ has changed nick to avih. 08:56:20 (judging by the function names. i didn't try to actually follow the code) 09:05:46 optimisers often do that sort of thing 09:05:53 but yes, a bit disappointing 09:08:16 hmm 09:09:24 ais523: is your optimizer on the more generic side? 09:09:47 (i know it's not bf, but still) 09:09:48 the one I was working on but ended up abandoning was more generic 09:09:55 hmm 09:10:07 and the one for The Waterfall Model is only identifying one pattern but it's a very general one 09:10:25 right, that's what i hope to do with bf too 09:10:42 with the one pattern being "counter loop" 09:12:13 (it's the best name i got for it, but i've not seen this name elsewhere. typically it's called balanced loops or some such, but it's more specific than that because the main characteristic is that there's one cell which is being decreased by 1 on each iteration, making it a counter) 09:14:49 (and obviously the loop ends when this cell is zero) 10:19:55 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 10:31:53 lol 10:32:09 I just realized I had accidentally said that `n=np` 10:32:12 well 10:32:16 teextually I had 10:45:52 [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * JIT * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Nothing-suspicious.png]]": definitely did NOT make 2 errors in this thing and had to correct them, unrelated note: steganographic code is REALLY hard to code! 10:46:19 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:48:27 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 10:59:11 Hi 10:59:31 Hi APic! 10:59:41 Heya Yayimhere 😌 11:11:00 [[User talk:PrySigneToFry]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169706&oldid=168264 * I am islptng * (+152) /* SletScript */ 11:11:10 [[Exoshell]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+45750) A two-symbol loop-based language where program form (such as nested loops) encodes no additional functionality. 11:20:17 [[Countertrue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169708 * Keymaker * (+3244) A simple counter-based language with deterministic, cyclic execution. 11:21:48 [[User:Keymaker]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169709&oldid=148473 * Keymaker * (+159) Added the new languages. 11:24:00 wow, key maker goin at it 11:35:05 it may take me a while to read this 11:35:07 but I want to 11:35:25 ais523: it does in fact seem interesting 11:35:56 “nested loops encode no additional functionality” seems like an unintuitive way to describe a language where nested loops encode all functionality 11:36:21 huh, Countertrue is like a backwards version of The Waterfall Model 11:36:28 lol 11:36:40 strerror: it is 11:36:50 instead of the zeroing triggers running when the counter is zero, they run when the counter *isn't* zero 11:37:03 true 11:37:44 it's interesting that this works despite the triggers containing only +1/0/-1 as values 11:37:51 I'm not surprised that that's true, but it isn't totally obvious 11:38:47 [[The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169710&oldid=160864 * Ais523 * (+18) /* See also */ Countertrue is basically the opposite of The Waterfall Model (the triggers run when the counter isn't 0 rather than when it is 0) and so almost certainly is worth linking here 11:41:46 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ytyeytyd98e88498 * New user account 11:41:56 what a name 11:43:17 hmm 11:43:38 I wonder if mayhaps Unlambda is turing complete with `c` and `d` and `s` 11:43:44 andnandand 11:43:46 NAND! 11:55:33 oh right, if you want to change a counter by more than 1 in Countertrue you can just use duplicate counters in order to get twice as many triggers 11:56:16 this would work in The Waterfall Model too, if simultaneous zeroing were defined as running both triggers rather than undefined behaviour (but the "run both triggers" behaviour is often hard to implement and not very natural for the language) 11:56:57 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:08:22 [[$$Aleph 0x1111111100000001.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169711&oldid=165582 * JIT * (+32) 12:14:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 12:38:13 -!- tromp has joined. 12:49:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry about my connection). 14:02:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:14:17 -!- amby has joined. 14:28:14 random thought: is running a sequence of iconv commands in a loop Turing-complete? it feels like character encodings are complex enough that surely some of them must have the ability to do computation when misinterpreted as other character encodings 14:28:52 iconv + tr probably is, iconv on its own suffers from maybe not being able to map characters the way you'd want to map them 14:38:13 [[Exoshell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169712&oldid=169707 * Keymaker * (+392) /* Program and execution */ 14:45:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:45:21 `olist 1336 14:45:23 olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot 15:20:29 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 15:26:02 -!- tromp has joined. 15:29:53 avih: There's a relevant Perlis: "Programmers are not to be measured by their ingenuity and their logic but by the completeness of their case analysis." Same deal with compiler idioms. 15:30:06 Oh, wait, there's another: "Get into a rut early: Do the same process the same way. Accumulate idioms. Standardize. The only difference(!) between Shakespeare and you was the size of his idiom list - not the size of his vocabulary." 15:33:13 I mean, it's not common to find folks who know what "dun" means (it means dull, waxy, pale, untanned); Shakespeare's vocabulary was daunting. But it also was typical for the time among learned people; plenty of folks could understand and appreciate his writing. 15:35:14 Shakespeare just invented new words when necessary, though 15:35:30 so some of them wouldn't have been known by the audience at the time (but they could probably work them out( 15:38:49 Sure. The legend is that he aggressively borrowed words; the audience would have known "bandit" from Italian, for example, or "uncomfortable" from the standard Germanic un- prefix attached to "comfortable". What's more interesting to me are the noun phrases like "cold-blooded". 15:39:05 The legend is also that he came up with words like "bump" and "swag", but that beggars belief. 15:40:57 this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it 15:44:09 [[Talk:Square-complete]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169713 * * (+139) Created page with "So a Turing-complete language can be non-Square-complete? ~~~~" 15:45:06 [[Talk:Square-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169714&oldid=169713 * Corbin * (+210) Yes, but. 16:04:07 Still thinking about that. Mostly to see the details of the analogy. Invented words aren't automatically understood; we have a couple different layers of analysis (memetic, phonetic, whatever Werniecke's area does, acoustic) that go into word recognition, and each of those layers is independently trained. 16:04:52 (I'm somewhat sensitive to this because I have auditory processing issues; I *can't* recognize new words easily. I need to hear the phoenetics multiple times, I have no idea how to spell them, and I don't know what words might mean in context.) 16:05:33 On the other side, computers don't understand anything. We do have a notion of opcodes, ISA, and executable text; but there's no sense in which the computer refuses to understand unknown opcodes. It has a full specification of how those behave: they don't! 16:05:59 -!- DOS_User_webchat has joined. 16:06:11 -!- DOS_User_webchat has changed hostmask to ~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249. 16:06:24 And if we subscribe to the theory that all machines are weird then the computer's understanding is irrelevant; what matters is that *we* divide the opcodes into the worlds of "understandable" and "weird" based on whether *we* understand the effects of those codes. 16:12:16 this is one luxury we don't have in programming, we can't just invent a word without defining it, or the computer won't understand it 16:12:41 im a human and very often i need words i dont know to be defined tbh 16:13:05 (chatlogs are useful for replying to past messages lol) 16:13:15 we do that all the time in this channel 16:14:17 yea 16:14:29 thats the good thing of having them public :) 16:15:40 [[Q!?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169715 * * (+950) Created page with "'''Q!?''' is a 2D [[Turing tarpit]] made by [[User:]]. {| class="wikitable" |+ Commands |- ! Command !! What it does |- | ^ || Moves execution up. |- | v || Moves execution down. |- | < || Moves execution to the left. |- | > || Moves execution to the right. |- | g || Goes back the 16:15:55 [[Q!?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169716&oldid=169715 * * (-6) /* Turing completeness */ 16:17:12 korvo: :) 16:17:14 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169717&oldid=169353 * * (+38) /* Survey */ 16:19:13 -!- DOS_User_webchat has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:20:31 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169718&oldid=169717 * Corbin * (-38) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/169717|169717]] by [[Special:Contributions/|]] ([[User talk:|talk]]): Too large to be a tarpit. Also, please don't add stuff to this list until it's proven TC and implemented; it's already too big and I'm still trying to pare it down. 16:29:22 hmm, I wonder whether Esimpl is a Turing tarpit 16:29:39 Hm. I double-checked [[Turing tarpit]]'s history, and found something I never quite answered. *Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline? What happened in the mid-60s to completely change people's opinions about the worthiness of minimal machines? 16:29:57 -!- Yayimhere has joined. 16:30:07 I think they were hoping it would give some fundamental insight, then decided it wouldn't – but I don't know anything more beyond that 16:30:50 I've been studying Turing tarpits possibly more than anyone else, and the insights have been interesting but probably not what the computer scientists of the day were hoping for 16:31:00 There's two obvious candidates in the history. The first one is the development of ALGOL. I don't understand exactly how this could have catalyzed a change in research, but maybe it sucked the air out of other ventures. 16:32:11 The second one, which is more compelling to me, is the development of MOSFET techniques for integrated circuits. WP says that MOSFETs outpaced older techniques in 1964, and that's also the year that the first commercial product based on the tech came out: https://www.computerhistory.org/siliconengine/first-commercial-mos-ic-introduced/ 16:32:45 hi! 16:33:06 hmm, so your theory is along the lines of "computers got powerful enough for higher-level languages to become more obviously useful, and that made lower-level languages seem less useful" 16:33:12 hi Yayimhere 16:33:21 ais523: It definitely does seem like people were disappointed. In USA history, there's this concept of Great Disappointment, where a bunch of people predicted that the world would end. When it didn't end, they became very bitter and splintered into a bunch of other movements, which still claimed that the world was ending, but in more subtle ways. 16:33:28 Yayimhere: Good morning. 16:33:31 but normally the people writing high-level languages and the people studying low-level languages are different 16:33:41 korvo: good morning to you too! 16:33:48 ais523: That certainly lines up with the quotes from Minksy and Perlis that I've got on the article, but that could be cherry-picking or Great Man Syndrome. 16:34:27 it's also possible that they *got* some results which weren't what they wanted 16:34:38 ais523: Right! I think of people like Hopper as climbing a ladder of abstraction, while plenty of other folks stuck to electrical engineering and the nitty-gritty of building components at scale. In the 1950s a computer had to be installed by a team of techs, it had a dedicated operator and cleaning crew, etc. 16:35:06 I know what reducing a language's expressive power looks like (to make it easier to implement), sometimes I've seriously fought for really minor points of expressive power (e.g. Acyclic Tag compared to regular cyclic tag) 16:35:14 even without having any obvious application for them in mind 16:35:40 I imagine that can be a bit disheartening if you think that repeatedly reducing expressive power would get you down to some fundamental "simplest possible programming language" 16:36:05 after a while they start to become more complicated to describe, despite being easy to implement (e.g. cyclic tag is elegant in a way that Acyclic Tag is not) 16:36:11 Yeah. Minsky's program, for example. Minsky finally succeeded in writing a very small universal Turing-machine program sometime around then, and didn't learn anything from the venture. Today, we'd probably think of it as a recreational activity. Maybe it's one of those bits of maths that *became* recreational as computers advanced, like how mental math for taking roots is no longer popular. 16:36:32 -!- chomwitt_alt has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:37:05 what I got out of the exercise was an improved ability to prove things TC, but that isn't obviously useful 16:37:18 I mean, it's useful for an admin of the Esolang wiki, but most people aren't in that situation 16:37:37 That's definitely another possibility, although computational complexity wasn't developed enough for that. Maybe there's Kuhnian incommensurability in how they saw the programming landscape. I know that even today, lots of maths folks think of TMs as being the "simplest" such machine, rather than one that emulates pen and paper. 16:37:57 korvo: btw, if you care, then you'll be happy to know my parents have forced me to use my programming skills for something that isnt esolangs 16:38:04 you can go both simpler and more elegant than TMs very easily 16:39:10 ais523: Oh, none of this inquiry is to critique what you're working on. I'm wholly focused on this question of what happened from 1961 to 1966 or so. To quote a fictional detective, it *vexes* me. 16:39:21 korvo: I understand 16:39:41 but the most I can to do help is explain the outcomes I've personally observed doing similar research in the hope that it gives some insight into the other people who were doing that 16:40:04 1961 is recent enough that it might be possible to just find someone who was there at the time and ask 16:40:18 I think that your work is super-important frontier work, in addition to the contributions you make to foundations. We do need researchers. If we're going to cut off a line of research then I'd like to understand why we did that. 16:40:42 I don't know whether it's important or not, I do it anyway 16:40:44 mostly as a hobby 16:41:02 if it is important, that's a bonus 16:41:13 Yayimhere: Yay! But also if that other thing is school, then I know that that can be very boring. I remember writing programs on my calculator to help me in with math and science class. 16:41:33 one thing that I've historically neglected is performance, there are double-exponentials everywhere in my work 16:41:49 [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169719&oldid=169109 * * (+110) 16:41:53 I have been trying to care more about it recently 16:42:08 korvo: thankfully it isnt, its making a gamme 16:42:16 though I think I might make it in like 16:42:26 [[Q!?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169720&oldid=169716 * * (+15) 16:42:37 a Malbolge or Brainf*ck assembly language 16:42:37 partly because I think it's "less solved" than pure TCness is, and less investigated in the esolang community (although probably more investigated in academic papers) 16:42:41 for thee giggles 16:42:55 Oh! Very fun. 16:43:05 yea! 16:43:19 I would advise not trying to write a game in Malbolge (or indeed write anything else in Malbolge) 16:43:32 (though I will still be active in the esolanging community, since I landed an esoteric.codes interview) 16:43:36 ais523: true. 16:43:51 that's how I first got into esolangs, it didn't work out well in terms of writing the Malbolge programs specifically 16:44:01 but it did get me far enough to observe INTERCAL 16:44:07 yea 16:44:18 one thing im *not* doing is intercal 16:44:47 now I'm wondering how many INTERCAL programs are intended as games, probably not that many of them 16:45:00 hm 16:45:07 but yes, INTERCAL is a bit dated at this point 16:45:10 maybe I *should* do INTERCAL 16:45:14 since its uncommon 16:45:19 it mostly exists as a platform for adding jokes, but you need something to parody 16:45:25 true 16:45:47 and I'm not sure that many modern languages have features that are worth parodying, which is a shame 16:46:41 maybe something like Rust's borrow-checker would be fun to parody, but I'm not sure how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated 16:46:48 (which is how most of INTERCAL's features work) 16:47:47 I think my favourite INTERCAL jokes are the ones where we just use a tool correctly for its intended purpose, in situations where nobody else would sanely do that 16:47:52 lol 16:48:24 like, C-INTERCAL has as far as I know a fully correct autoconf+automake setup, it took me months of learning to figure that out and required using the tools in ways they're hardly ever used in practice 16:49:19 my favorite feature of interval is ABSTAIN 16:49:41 by line number or by gerund? or both? 16:50:04 *INTERCAL 16:50:10 I like ABSTAIN too, but the two uses of it are extremely different 16:50:22 ais523: I think its by line number 16:51:02 line number is by far the computationally more interesting version 16:51:08 gerund is the better joke but not very practical in practice 16:51:26 lemme check which is which real fast 16:51:40 line number is DO ABSTAIN FROM (10) or the like 16:51:45 yea 16:51:45 gerund is DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING or the like 16:51:46 that one 16:52:25 but yea, abstain is cool 16:52:45 actually this is why I don't like IGNORE, it's basically the boring version of ABSTAIN 16:52:58 oh, i haven't heard of IGNORE 16:53:23 it makes variable read-only 16:53:30 attempts to write to them just get ignored 16:53:38 oh 16:53:40 you can undo it with REMEMBER 16:53:42 yea thats kinda boring 16:53:55 ais523: ok that is a *little* funny 16:55:25 [[User talk:Corbin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169721&oldid=169719 * Corbin * (+1155) Good question! It wholly depends on the underlying models. 16:56:17 [[User talk:Corbin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169722&oldid=169721 * Corbin * (+62) Add topic headings. 16:58:34 [[Closed lambda term]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169723&oldid=162876 * Corbin * (+132) /* Completeness */ Clearly indicate the open question. 17:02:39 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Dango Language Logo.png]]": author chose not to release to the public domain 17:03:47 [[File talk:Dango Language Logo.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169724&oldid=169327 * Ais523 * (+139) now deleted 17:09:08 [[Underun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+628) Created page with "'''Underun''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Yayimhere]]. It combines the [[Unlambda operators]] d & c with [[Sea]]'s &, [[Underloads]] () and ~ and a special operator .. == Rewrite rul 17:09:19 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 17:09:24 [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169726&oldid=169725 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) 17:09:34 [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169727&oldid=169726 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) 17:12:41 [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169728&oldid=169727 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+170) categories 17:13:24 [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169729&oldid=169728 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) 17:16:19 [[Underun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169730&oldid=169729 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+70) /* Rewrite rules */ add brackets and d as a rewrite rule 17:19:15 [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169731&oldid=169577 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+14) /* esolangs */ 17:20:10 [[Talk:Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169732&oldid=108696 * Corbin * (+2816) /* Qualifying further additions */ new section 17:20:21 -!- tromp has joined. 17:20:28 How much agreement needs to happen before a category is created? 17:20:52 [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169733&oldid=169731 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+11) /* esolangs */ 17:20:54 An admin needs to be okay with it, more or less. 17:20:59 ok 17:21:21 hmmm 17:21:34 [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169734&oldid=169733 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* esolangs */ 17:22:10 it basically comes down to "will the admins, looking at the discussion, think it's unapproved" 17:22:30 also whether the name is right, renaming a category is difficult so if one gets created at the wrong name it's best to delete it before it gets too many pages 17:22:34 What categories are you itching for? I've been waiting for a while, but I've accepted that e.g. five is not enough for a category. 17:22:37 well then, do you think counter based is unapproved? 17:22:42 no, I think it's approved 17:22:45 korvo: counter based 17:22:47 but it'll be a lot of work to find all the pages that go there 17:22:51 true 17:22:58 it was proposed a whlie ago, some people liked it, nobody disliked it 17:23:00 I can *try* and do *some* of that task 17:23:07 there are plenty of languages that fit 17:23:09 yew 17:23:11 *yea 17:23:19 i do know quite a lot though 17:23:24 I can try thats all im sayin 17:23:25 I'm not sure how long it'd take to go through the whole language list, we used to be able to do that but it's quite long nowadays 17:23:46 yea 17:23:57 don't try yet, we will want a precise definition on the category description page 17:24:01 yea 17:24:05 and then to add languages that fit the definition 17:24:06 ok, then ill wait until thne 17:24:09 *then 17:24:11 great! 17:24:22 ais523: Perfect's the enemy of good; I agree with Keymaker that it can be done incrementally. There are many pages with redlinked categories. The Featured Article mechanism is meant to indicate that a page is perfect; otherwise, it's okay. 17:24:51 korvo: oh, I know 17:24:55 TBQH just deleting [[language list]] would be a great move. It could be done today. 17:25:09 TBQH? 17:25:16 but I do agree 17:25:22 this is one of the admin tasks I'd be doing if I had more capacity to concentrate (which I don't have right now, maybe later) 17:25:23 TBQH = TBH + q = quite 17:25:28 ah ok 17:25:34 To Be Quite Honest. Just IRC slang. 17:25:35 I've been awake for 17 hours already at this point and need to stay up a bit longer 17:25:45 ais523: wow 17:25:56 and 17 hours awake is not the right point at which to do complex admin actions 17:26:10 in fact 17:26:22 actually 17:26:25 Oh! No worries. I'm not asking for edits right now. Quoting Zen of Python, "Now is better than never. But never is often better than *right now*." 17:26:29 how do you have the ability to be on here like 17:26:33 *every day* 17:27:26 it's basically just idling, may as well have my client connected to IRC in case anyone says anything is better 17:27:37 * anyone says anything intersting 17:27:43 Because we're adults working at computers. People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers. (If you want a wild rabbit hole, look up why stock traders and big bankers *cannot* have chat windows open. They do it anyway and often get in trouble for it.) 17:27:54 OK so this is why you don't do complex things after 17 hours awake :-D 17:27:59 that was quite the typo 17:28:16 korvo: oh interesting 17:28:23 ais523: in fact 17:29:25 korvo: I should make a todo list for big esolang admin-related changes 17:29:37 ais523: i agree 17:29:42 deleting the language list and replacing it with the semi-serious language list would, I think, be an improvement (and fix the silly name) 17:29:47 featured language? 17:29:56 Yayimhere: Not to recommend my career path, but by the time I was 17, I spent part of my school day in the computer lab, working to maintain several hundred Windows machines for my fellow students. Chat windows were a standard part of that. 17:29:57 but that would mean being more careful about the SSLL's inclusion criteria 17:30:15 korvo: oh *wow* 17:30:32 Yayimhere: if you ever meet a sysadmin they will tell you not to become one yourself, korvo isn't the first sysadmin I've seen that sentiment from 17:30:48 ais523: lol 17:31:23 anyway, I should go 17:31:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:31:36 bye 17:31:46 ais523: I can start an articles-for-deletion-esque process. We'll start with stuff that ought to be deleted per policy: copyright violations, requested deletions, redirects from eso namespace. I don't want to start the whole dogpile system that WP uses, nor the whole secret-policing part of it. 17:32:02 ...I'm always just a little slow with the typing. 17:33:06 Yayimhere: So, there were other kids that also spent all day in the computer lab. The thing was, they were *using* it. Some of that was classes that we all took, like how to use word processors and spreadsheets. Some of it was for kids that were much more popular than me; in the USA we have "yearbooks" which record what happened, and there was a constructed popularity system that they were constantly managing for the yearbook. 17:33:32 korvo: damn 17:34:03 What I'm saying is that if you aim to maintain infrastructure, then you'll always be infra-; you'll always be working to support other folks. It's noble but also infuriating because your peers will take that infrastructure for granted. 17:34:27 yea 17:35:29 The tradeoff is in the name. A sysadmin knows about *systems*; that means disciplines like "systems thinking" and "distributed systems" which sound academic but are extremely relevant to today's interconnected world. Also, we are *administrators*; we have the responsibility of keeping things afloat, and with responsibility there comes the power of decision-making. 17:35:57 hm 17:36:27 Like, a non-trivial portion of why I'm allowed to just edit eso namespace and generally don't get reverted is because I understand what a system shaped like English WP is like, and I understand what it means to admin that sort of site. After being an admin for so long, I understand how to make non-admin changes to the system, too. 17:37:02 I'm allowed to discuss power precisely because I'm not holding it. I'm allowed to be flippant about big decisions precisely because I can't actually flip the switches. 17:37:02 hm 17:38:09 -!- cbs has left. 17:39:00 Yayimhere: Oh, and also, I *discuss* nearly everything I plan to do. If I'm going to write even 1000 chars, I will usually make at least a note in IRC first. I'll also plan it with a scratch pad sometimes, thinking about what to edit before I start editing. 17:39:22  hm makes sense 17:39:25 I recognize that this is part of the luxury of being in chat. That's also why I leave notes on talk pages for others. 17:54:23 -!- tromp has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 18:04:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:08:07 “ it's not common to find folks who know what ‘dun’ means” => yeah, https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html sounds like it invented words for just the punchline 18:08:34 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169735&oldid=165367 * Aadenboy * (-1238) rewrite article 18:09:39 Hmm do I bother with AoC this year? 18:10:43 Might as well, I guess. 18:11:16 [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169736&oldid=169022 * Corbin * (+1742) /* Completeness */ Mirror [[Turing tarpit]] more closely. Split into subsections. List open questions. These are off the top of my head and I may need to do another literature review. 18:12:56 “*we* divide the opcodes […] based on whether * we* understand the effects of those codes.” => I think we divide opcodes (or sometimes full instructions) to defined and undefined based on whether we can trust that future CPUs won't behave completely differently on them. The undefined ones either ignore the prefix or some bits in them, or always trap. 18:13:22 int-e: I'm going to save up my strength for the langjam. I'm currently at the same place as yumaikas in https://lobste.rs/s/gtcrvu/langjam_gamejam_build_programming#c_mbchk9 where I'm not sure if just building a Forth is okay. 18:13:50 b_jonas: What a perfect reference. Nice memory. 18:15:02 So, I think that humans doing something because of the current spec, like iterating on it to make a future spec, is still something that *we humans* are doing. It certainly is an oscillating action in spacetime: we influence the chips, the chips influence us, we influence the chips, etc. 18:17:23 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169737&oldid=169735 * Corbin * (+90) /* Usage */ Used in Laconic and NQL to write small Turing machines. 18:19:58 -!- tromp has joined. 18:20:30 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169738&oldid=169737 * Aadenboy * (+25) format as list + category 18:22:55 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169739&oldid=169738 * Aadenboy * (+11) /* Operations */ jank 18:24:05 hmm 18:24:39 “*Why* did the study of Turing tarpits decline?” => I don't think it declined, because a lot of people seem to be interested in Brainfuck even today. 18:24:55 b_jonas:true 18:24:58 oops 18:25:51 Yeah. I think it shifted from being an academic study purely of Turing machines, to being a study of TMs and also Post machines and Minsky machines, to studying cellular automata as well, to the current day. 18:26:11 yea 18:27:11 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169740&oldid=169739 * Aadenboy * (-29) /* Usage */ rewrite sentenceI think it's a queue? 18:27:21 I suppose I'm looking for some strong statement like a 1967 paper saying "Following Böhm's 1966 theorem, we hereby abandon Turing machines in favor of flowchart programming", or a 1965 paper saying "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls" 18:29:49 the question is if that existys 18:29:54 but im not one to conjecture that 18:30:01 korvo: It's only 12 days now and I certainly won't rush it. 18:30:20 Fun... I messed up the bonus part on the first try. 18:30:37 err, second part 18:31:49 Yayimhere: No worries. I'm only guessing based on the research that I've already done. It's frustrating because of what Robert Evans calls "the fact that back then there were only like a dozen guys who all knew each other", an instance of the Friendship Paradox. 18:32:52 Lucky 10000 if you haven't seen this before, BTW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox It's the phenomenon that your friends are usually more popular than you. It's statistically true for most binary relations. 18:33:07 hm 18:33:09 weird 18:33:15 unrealted but 18:33:17 for some reason I have an urge to make an oisc instruction 18:33:27 defined within malbolge 18:34:25 . o O ( which Robert Evans ) 18:36:20 int-e: Oh wow, there's even a disambiguation page. TIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Evans_(journalist) this one, a journalist focused on investigating bad people. He podcasts roughly one biography per week, and one of the recurring themes of 20th century history is that some specific intermediaries keep showing up due to having massive social circles. 18:37:00 korvo: I do know that one. And it did sound like something he'd say. I just didn't expect him to come up in a TCS context :P 18:38:22 Yayimhere: Malbolge's OISC is actually a great example of how to go naturally to a ZISC. We might call the one instruction something like "Decrypt, Maybe Input, Maybe Output, Permute". The ZISC hardwires that one instruction. 18:38:38 Because the OISC doesn't have any arguments, it might as well be a ZISC; that's what I mean by "natural". 18:38:39 korvo: yea 18:39:43 hmm 18:39:57 now I actually came up with an interesting way of doing a conditional ZISC 18:40:01 thats self modifying 18:40:05 or more so self describing 18:40:16 int-e: I know two English WP admins. The other is David Gerard. The common link is that I'm anti-crank, and that ends up intersecting with anti-grift and anti-TREACLES efforts, which heavily overlap with Evans' anti-fascist research. (I *am* anti-fascist, but for more definitional reasons.) 18:40:20 ZISC or OISC 18:40:39 I wish they studied a Tarpit that was at least somewhat better. Like BytePusher, though it's not technically a Turing Tarpit but an interesting OISC with bounded memory. 18:40:42 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169741&oldid=169740 * Aadenboy * (+246) /* Operations */ note about A_length 18:41:05 Yayimhere: Well, this is all very natural. It's part of why I don't really like talking about ZISC as if it were active research; it's more like a perspective. 18:41:20 korvo: hm 18:42:17 Yayimhere: Say you've got a CPU, like the x86 or ARM in your current computer. We could say that it's an OISC in the sense that it has *one* behavior, something like "Fetch, Decode, ALU, Memory, Retire". Yes, that's just what the programmable pipeline does, but when it's hooked up to memory it cannot do anything else. 18:42:58 And we can say that that's a ZISC since we can't change that one behavior; it's got *zero* programmability in terms of its circuits. The only thing that you can really change is the initial contents of memory. 18:43:09 anyways 18:43:11 bye 18:43:23 Peace. 18:43:32 -!- Yayimhere has quit (Quit: Client closed). 19:20:31 [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169742&oldid=169700 * Ractangle * (+68) 19:21:19 [[Nein.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169743&oldid=169742 * Ractangle * (+1) i meant shown 19:25:15 [[Y/Y]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169744&oldid=163597 * Ractangle * (-144) 19:25:27 "how you would create something that superficially seems like a borrow checker and can do a basic impression of its most common uses, and then breaks spectacularly when you try to use it for something more complicated" => don't allow reference members in user-defined algebraic types. that makes it much easier to implement the borrow checker and reason about it, but programs will have to do pointer to 19:25:33 reference unsafe casts for most of the complicated uses. but I don't think this works as a joke. 19:29:02 "People tend to have chat windows open when they work at computers." => which you can tell because a lot of the chat parts of the internet that I frequent are more active during weekdays when users are working, even though you'd expect that they're more active during weekend when they have free time. 19:29:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:30:02 I'm not a sysadmin and I'll also tell you not to become a sysadmin. 19:30:08 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:30:36 though admittedly my father is kind of a sysadmin, but he does the parts that avoid a lot of the drawbacks of being a sysadmin 19:35:00 "Following the commercial explosion of MOSFETs, manual assembly of circuits appears destined for the museum halls" => true, there are no longer mostly american indian women working on weaving core memory arrays. only hobbyists make circuits by hand. 19:36:15 (at least in the scale of tiny parts of circuits; my co-workers are still building large circuits for work but they are connecting big pre-manufactured parts with wires or cables, not soldering components onto a circuit board) 19:51:49 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169745&oldid=169741 * Aadenboy * (+4) fix expression 19:53:00 [[Arbitrary memory emulation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169746&oldid=169745 * Aadenboy * (-13) 20:00:20 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169747&oldid=169628 * Corbin * (+220) /* Should we make a category of speedlangs? */ 20:21:42 -!- simcop2387 has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in). 20:21:42 -!- perlbot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in). 20:45:56 [[Dision]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169748&oldid=168877 * Buckets * (+2) 20:46:52 [[Esorn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169749&oldid=167899 * Buckets * (+0) 21:04:40 [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169750&oldid=167392 * Esolangist alt * (+1070) Esolangist alt 21:16:54 [[UnicodeLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=169751&oldid=169750 * * (+249) /* Basic Latin */