->
> 1767611564 546453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172273&oldid=172260 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+133) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */
> 1767611842 718699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172274&oldid=172272 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+644) 10/* Writing basic documents */
> 1767611855 16222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172275&oldid=172274 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-5) 10
> 1767611923 958500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172276&oldid=172275 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+44) 10/* Writing basic documents */
> 1767611992 877189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172277&oldid=172276 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+38) 10
> 1767613050 564350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172278&oldid=172263 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+308) 10
> 1767613084 555175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172279&oldid=172278 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+188) 10
< 1767613473 340523 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1767615840 842563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:QianJianTec1767615761041.png10]]": It's just a polynomial, what harm could it possibly have?
> 1767617849 313748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172281&oldid=166924 5* 03 5* (+11) 10Fixed broken link
> 1767618592 428722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Polynomix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172282 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+125) 10Created page with "Polynomix will be a powerful computer language designed by islptng. Maybe it'll be implemented in Rust (I'm not sure.)"
< 1767620773 153439 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767623405 483218 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Mungday! Hail Eris! 😇
< 1767625190 448502 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767626849 888646 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1767627806 799046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767627846 351960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The interview between Daniel Temkin and yayimhere is now online: https://esoteric.codes/blog/yayimhere-interview
> 1767629024 594063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MicroMiku14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172283&oldid=172258 5* 03Ais523 5* (+535) 10why not merge and redirect?
> 1767630185 720347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172284&oldid=172182 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1033) 10okay this is much better. I like this
> 1767630244 704274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FISHQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172285&oldid=66257 5* 03DockedChutoy 5* (+371) 10
> 1767630400 775392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172286&oldid=172147 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10formatting
> 1767630823 646892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172287&oldid=172284 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10/* Commands */
> 1767630960 676669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172288&oldid=172287 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+60) 10/* Commands */ extremely esoteric
> 1767631034 186428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172289&oldid=172288 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10/* Commands */ 4-6 commands
< 1767631037 809720 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :Quit: korvo
< 1767631057 359550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
> 1767631352 190070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172290&oldid=171562 5* 03Timm 5* (-12) 10
> 1767631366 215149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172291&oldid=172290 5* 03Timm 5* (-14) 10
> 1767631427 339878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172292&oldid=172273 5* 03Corbin 5* (+123) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */ Five!
< 1767632193 205151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting article. Says much more about Temkin than yayimhere though.
< 1767634478 350243 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:395d:5c96:b2eb:8f95 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1767634506 915682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I learned quite a bit about both of them, I think
< 1767634527 609846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm already fairly familiar with Temkin's style
< 1767634573 756473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, you can view both sides of the interview as being an exercise in extracting unintended/unintentional meaning from things
< 1767634594 750411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is not necessarily a bad exercise! it's an entirely valid source of new ideas)
< 1767634626 341554 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767634629 658263 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello!
< 1767634634 846236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1767634637 102218 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you all doing?
< 1767634638 339009 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're discussing your interview
< 1767634641 787425 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1767634643 684603 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1767634646 227299 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :what a surprise
< 1767634649 22337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my email client notifier actually worked
< 1767634654 938668 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!
< 1767634684 38104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sympathise with the point of view of taking one aspect of something and really focusing on it to see how far you can get
< 1767634713 460281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in one of my own esoteric.codes interviews, I mentioned about how some of my languages were ideas extracted from a bigger, unfinished language
< 1767634731 471302 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh which one?
< 1767634760 107843 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i didnt notice that in the 2017 one if its that one
< 1767634791 421312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second one, in the section talking about three star programmer
< 1767634797 338220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was just a mention rather than the main point of the section
< 1767634803 907783 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1767634808 87431 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1767634828 450760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, it's in the *second* section talking about three star programmer, sorry, I missed that there were two of them
< 1767634846 870154 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :its ok
< 1767634963 928219 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :what did you think of the interview?
< 1767635107 55999 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it gave me a lot of insight into your languages
< 1767635129 88000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking that your languages often contain interesting ideas that weren't well-explained, and realised that I often have problems explaning my own ideas too
< 1767635145 891138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :often I can't get my point across even despite having had a lot of practice
< 1767635148 317968 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideas are a strange thing
< 1767635196 814794 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :and can be hard to describe, as you said
< 1767635241 322466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes I have problems describing my ideas even to myself
< 1767635285 850137 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, thats interesting
< 1767635350 798179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like it sometimes takes months to shape an idea into a space where I can understand/describe it properly (although this has mostly been happening with non-esoprogramming ideas recently)
< 1767635471 613814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the sort of esolangs I like have fewer moving pieces to interact with than practical languages do, so there are fewer interactions that need to be explored
< 1767635491 761977 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea that makes sense
< 1767635657 345974 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any other thoughts you have on the interview
< 1767635775 267440 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I worry that Temkin is sliding into the Lex Friedman style of interviewing. It didn't really feel like he was doing anything investigative.
< 1767635834 699964 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, interesting
< 1767635874 518633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I was interested that you were interested in An Odd Rewriting System, I didn't expect it to be high up the list of my languages that other people liked
< 1767635911 760853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess it's connected with the way it was made: I noticed a common aspect of esolang ideas I had that made programs hard to write
< 1767635920 950805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I wanted to write an esolang about that one exact problem, to really focus on it
< 1767635940 665140 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh. i had actually thought it was pretty high up the list. Whats interesting to me is as you said the concept
> 1767635943 16250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172293&oldid=172289 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+99) 10/* Memory */
< 1767635951 289037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so a reaction of not really understanding it is connected to that – I didn't really understand the problem either, so I wrote an esolang
< 1767635965 298189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and found one solution but it might not be the best solution (it would be interesting in a way if it is, but I suspect it isn't)
< 1767635996 48036 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was also just one of the first languages of yours I came across
< 1767636052 208209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering which of my other esolangs were created to highlight a problem – is it just Feed the Chaos? I can't think of any others offhand
< 1767636075 308178 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :I cant either
< 1767636083 687362 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Globe?
< 1767636085 272316 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps
< 1767636096 559209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure that interviews necessarily have to be investigative – giving the interviewee space to talk about what they want to talk about is often enough
< 1767636107 250281 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i agree
< 1767636125 375840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although maybe the ideal is to present new points of view for the interviewee to think aobut
< 1767636137 670847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Globe is more an exploration of a solution than an exploration of a problem, I think
< 1767636146 195825 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If it's not a conversation then what's the point of the second person?
< 1767636150 231928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess that's a way of highlighting a problem in its own right
< 1767636158 528774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: at least in this case, visibility
< 1767636161 628567 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think he certainly did bring me ideas I hadn't though about before
< 1767636173 582234 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh! Then *the entire enterprise* is wrong and backwards.
< 1767636225 677487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it also helps the interviewee to organise their thoughts
< 1767636231 886949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The *entire problem* with Lex Friedman and similar interviewers is that they provide a platform without any insight or nuance. Friedman uploads 2hrs of their guest ranting, punctuated every 30min by a fresh one-sentence question.
< 1767636303 981568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reminded of the debates in which election candidates try to convince people to vote for them: those technically have an interviewer but their role is intentionally minimal, only there to set topics (and occasionally to do fact checks)
< 1767636336 716164 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Temkin atleast certainly sparked some ideas I hadn't though about before
< 1767636386 846164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a long-running program in the UK called "question time" where they invite a member of all the major political parties, and sometimes a celebrity or two with unusual political views, and ask them questions which are basically there to set a topic on which the panel expresses their own viewpoint
< 1767636399 721814 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess that I think that organizing thoughts is something a person can prompt themselves to do. When I was in high school, as part of debate and speech, I was taught to interrogate my own position. These sorts of self-questioning setups are, at least to me, a necessary part of writing blog posts.
< 1767636421 338515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is valuable because it serves as a pretty reliable way to understand the views of the people that you're voting for
< 1767636428 517843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what other possible views might exist
< 1767636458 222249 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We can't do that in the USA because our political candidates are too stupid and the First Amendment ensures that we can insult them for it. The UK has trouble admitting that their king is unelected; meanwhile in the USA we famously disqualified a man from office because he could not spell "potato".
< 1767636484 740060 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have to go now but I will be back
< 1767636497 790736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I'm glad that it was a good experience for you. I invite you to blog more often and explain your work.
< 1767636525 906636 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION &
< 1767636589 197859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the King simultaneously has, even in theory, both a very large amount of political power and almost no political power: he has some very wide-ranging abilities but isn't supposed to use them except on the advice of the government, which effectively make them the government's powers
< 1767636602 380634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the "isn't supposed to" is actually officially documented somewhere)
< 1767636671 402219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in practice the role turns into "person who officially interprets what the government's intention is"
< 1767636686 338719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not obvious that this needs to be an elected role
< 1767636698 808050 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767638073 517340 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767638966 719578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172294&oldid=172293 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-240) 10remove unnecessary command
< 1767639205 235770 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i dont really have anywhere to blog about my languages
< 1767639326 247183 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it do see the gain in doing it
< 1767639672 172861 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey, ais523, are you still trying to prove Annihilator's computational class? or are other things occupying your mind
< 1767639683 295439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't looked at that problem in a while
< 1767639694 78273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally, if I don't make progress on a computational class issue for a while, I just give up until I have new ideas
< 1767639721 100213 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1767639731 717115 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was just wondering since I was reading the page
< 1767639885 701340 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
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> 1767640005 42495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172295 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+164) 10Created page with "I like where this language is going! Keep at it --~~~~"
< 1767641353 379985 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:bd69:e830:90c6:66ad QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767641570 277204 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could have sworn that I'd told them about Neocities and a few other options. I can understand the psychological desire to put barriers in front of ultimately-undesirable goals, though.
< 1767641639 606355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing a blog is one thing, getting people to read it is another
< 1767641666 318255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm fairly well-connected in that respect, but even so I don't think all that many people read my blog (it is hard to tell because many of the requests to it will be from AI scrapers)
< 1767641782 646288 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes the point of the blog is not so that people proactively read it, but so that you can retroactively hand them an article when they are loudly wrong.
< 1767641800 494361 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other times it's cathartic to get a short story or essay out of the mind and onto the page.
< 1767641802 845598 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767641851 504555 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1767641972 311891 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1767643410 885741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172296&oldid=172295 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+287) 10thanks!
> 1767643552 90192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Livefish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172297&oldid=146676 5* 03DockedChutoy 5* (+5) 10fix
< 1767644509 241546 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's weird to think, anything you write onto a blog, now will become some company's AI's training data
< 1767644526 520673 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with so many AI scraping bots seeking content
< 1767644598 797883 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why is that weird? The law on it was settled two decades ago and the practice was standardized three decades ago.
< 1767644602 339587 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767644666 957603 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is interesting how training-time LLMs are now an audience worth considering. People have historically not appreciated my blog posts because they don't really like my POV, but an LLM doesn't care and may even learn something by reading. (Humans famously don't read much of what they claim to read, you see.)
< 1767644733 949170 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "weird" because part of my brain becomes part of some AI's brain by "learning" my thought patterns
< 1767644739 819190 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :More important is that people not upload stuff to GitHub if they aren't prepared to have their stuff used for Copilot training. For me, this is largely *funny* because most of my code is bespoke to the point where it's not useful for corporations; but also the few things that matter are uploaded elsewhere.
< 1767644756 645540 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you're "influencing" the AI. it's like a separate audience...
< 1767644781 553254 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :their AI could learn "bad" things from you
< 1767644793 563436 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's no supervision in this web scraping
< 1767644805 862656 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767644815 339696 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767644828 240095 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least some reputable companies use a selected, reviewed data set for training, not random ad-hoc internet stuff
> 1767644879 549629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172298&oldid=170908 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+42) 10/* Examples */
> 1767644890 879547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172299&oldid=172298 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */
> 1767644913 153163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172300&oldid=172292 5* 03 5* (+633) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */
< 1767644931 541316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, they use Common Crawl, see commoncrawl.org for more details. It's random ad-hoc stuff that people are sharing with each other; maybe it's popular, maybe not. It's preferable to a high-Reddit diet like the one that induced glitch tokens in GPT-2.
> 1767645011 167160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172301&oldid=172299 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+215) 10/* Examples */
< 1767645252 457781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've considered designing a server to detect various styles of scrapers and send them information that poisons the model in various ways, to make it possible to subsequently check to see who was doing the scraping by prompting them with the trigger phrase and seeing which ones return poisoned results
< 1767645295 953701 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Here's how I think of it: an LLM is a bag of sentences. When you reach into it with a given context, you can pull out any sentence in the training data which matches that context, as well as many similar sentences which might occur in future training data. The controls we have as writers are to put certain sentences out there and hope that they get into the bag, or to withhold certain sentences from the public to make them less likely.
< 1767645309 781311 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I put many more words in the comments here: https://awful.systems/post/5211510
< 1767645402 565120 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/ is what many folks are using. You can use awful.systems as an example domain; in some search engines like DDG/Bing there are still good results, but Google no longer returns useful results from that domain at all.
< 1767645417 412240 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: for scrapers, random replace some words in your text with the N-word
< 1767645441 45257 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: 4chan already appears in training data~
< 1767645478 438130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure how good Iocaine is at actually poisoning training data, as opposed to merely being useless – perhaps it's pretty effective though (it is named after a fictional poison, after all)
< 1767645509 224428 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *
< 1767645544 162517 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1767645582 445791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It has to be manually filtered by humans. It's not as useless as Glaze or Nightshade, for which there are automatic tagging-and-cleaning pipelines!
< 1767645651 528729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah, I was more thinking about "assuming it isn't filtered, will it have a substantial impact on the LLM's output"?
< 1767645690 137551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's based on markov chains, which will end up generating fragments of plausible sentences very often because that's what they do, so maybe a query to the LLM will match something that randomly appeared in a Markov chain and the LLM will think that the rest of the Markov chain is a good continuation
< 1767645706 826099 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a.k.a. hallucination
< 1767645747 238029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LLM hallucinations are pretty different from that, they normally consists of statement that assume that a pattern continues, when the pattern doesn't actually exist
< 1767645758 414486 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: In general, low-perplexity text doesn't appear to harm training. There's a paper with a title like "Textbooks are all you need" which shows that the most important training data is high-perplexity textbooks.
< 1767645761 400240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or does exist but not in that context
< 1767645802 986052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you train the LLM *only* on low-perplexity inputs then there is a ceiling to the learned complexity. (...Phrased like that, maybe it could even be a theorem of the PAC framework?) That's the so-called "model collapse" that folks sometimes discuss.
< 1767645828 27659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking more like, making the pages you serve to scrapers all contain a particular false sentence, and then see whose LLMs end up believing the sentence
< 1767645838 150632 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if it's something that's harmless and plausible, but wrong
< 1767645843 632312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of like trap streets on maps
< 1767645880 554101 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: A confabulation, or what folks call "hallucination", is due to the fact that natlangs all contain words for dualizing/polarizing/inverting a concept: hot and cold are a good example from biology and physics.
< 1767645947 252976 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you get — cannot stress enough that this is what they really call it — "Waluigi paths", which are relatively likely paths that can get an LLM to completely flip its polarity with regard to a concept under discussion. This is broadly called the "Waluigi effect".
< 1767645993 918720 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe comes from the fact that training data has polarity shifts in comparisons
< 1767646007 326008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For me, a much neater explanation is that an LLM *must* confabulate sometimes because it's a finite pile of weights trying to model a nearly-infinite world; there's no way that every true fact (and *only* true facts, defying Tarski and Gödel somehow) can fit into only a few GiB.
< 1767646035 781821 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: It's because the highest-probability answers to any yes/no question are "yes" and "no", polar opposites.
< 1767646124 247241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the "ideal" for an AI model with an LLM-like interface would be for it to be a lossily compressed collection of a statement of facts, with the lossiness not mattering in practice (or causing the AI to say that it didn't know)
< 1767646132 954936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also epistemological hurdles; https://lobste.rs/s/yykymj/hallucinations_are_inevitable_can_be#c_aexu7v covers those and links to more.
< 1767646138 927017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's theoretically plausible that one of those could exist in a few GiB – although I also think that LLMs are not that
< 1767646158 616103 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stochastic parrots
< 1767646188 657889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. We know that, regardless of architecture, it's not possible for any finite pile of facts to generate only the true facts about natural numbers; that's just Tarski's Undefinability. So even this sort of ideal model is still just a compressed Wikipedia.
> 1767646225 279013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Index php14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172302 5* 03 5* (+583) 10Created page with "'''Index php''' is an esolang made by [[User:]]. == What and why == Index php is a random idea had in mind (kinda) based in a [[Minsky machine]]. It's because had no idea what to do. Also, it is his second esolang in 2026! == Commands, i guess == * {{cd|ADD [X] [Y]}}: Adds
< 1767646233 92316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Yes, but you have to actually read Gebru et al for the nuance. A parrot doesn't just emit one token; they emit a *path* of tokens. It's the same bag-of-sentences model I mentioned earlier!
< 1767646244 8647 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's eventually anything gravitates to, when it's based on webscraping. a compressed Wikipedia + Reddit + Quora
< 1767646257 760148 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what an LLM trained on only Reddit would look like
> 1767646273 27827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172303&oldid=171964 5* 03 5* (+15) 10
< 1767646285 896648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know what proportion of Reddit is serious discussion and what proportion is shitposting and memes
< 1767646290 588491 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :llama from meta spits stuff quoting from reddit
< 1767646298 760708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but would expect the LLM to roughly match it
< 1767646301 50426 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :their scrapers definitely seen reddit
< 1767646309 738206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, but they have other sources too
< 1767646314 500298 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least one version
< 1767646323 54891 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :quotes quora as well
< 1767646326 702467 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and other references
< 1767646340 526266 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in the end... those kind of LLMs tend to be Internet.zip
< 1767646340 577255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: GPT-2 and GPT-3 are good hints. A now-classic explanation of the "SolidGoldMagikarp" meme exists at (sigh) LW: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/aPeJE8bSo6rAFoLqg/solidgoldmagikarp-plus-prompt-generation
< 1767646393 970894 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spits out something in a second, that you could have found with 1 min of googling
< 1767646415 655723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: They have to be! All general compression techniques have universal properties in common. Shalizi's got a great explanation: http://bactra.org/notebooks/nn-attention-and-transformers.html
< 1767646420 976221 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while boiling some cooling water in some giant AI data centre
< 1767646438 967981 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stockpiling on gazillion zigabytes of RAM, pumping up memory prices
< 1767646440 240353 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh whoops, you specifically want http://bactra.org/notebooks/nn-attention-and-transformers.html#gllz
< 1767646516 5977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Not to defend the bubble, but data centers don't boil water. They buy standard drinking water *at market rates* and spray it into the incoming air for air conditioning. Most of it evaporates off. This is why they're so often located near rivers; they get cheap power from dams and cheap water too.
< 1767646575 58088 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, if you want to be angry about water usage, attack golf courses.
< 1767646582 675881 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they need those yottabyes of RAM to store Internet.zip for their AI agents
< 1767646629 931395 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's it's so fast because the (extracted) weights are already in memory. i.e. fast access
< 1767646646 991612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OpenAI's buying RAM because they want to own their own data center. *Anybody* who makes data centers needs to buy RAM. Check the secondhand RAM market if you want affordable RAM; I bought an old 150 GiB Dell workstation for $150, for example.
< 1767646654 673907 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the more memory they have... the faster they can process
< 1767646703 715656 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea, but to run AI you need like... a lot of RAM, compared to your average application
< 1767646720 675658 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :when checking how to run these models locally. some require quite a lot of RAM
< 1767646774 59210 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No. To run *LLMs* you need a fair amount of RAM. And, actually, you can get by with only having the model state in RAM and the model weights on disk! Inference only requires a few MiB of RAM.
< 1767646787 548609 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is why they are "large".
< 1767646823 715415 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Traditional AI schemes usually are less than a MiB. They had to be! We've been doing image classification since the 1960s. We've been doing speech synthesis since the 1970s.
< 1767646899 163267 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, everything could be cached from disk, of course
< 1767646907 945583 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably they don't do that for performance
< 1767646917 823883 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ugh, wrong link, sorry. You want Part 3, where they discover the habits of certain Redditors: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/8viQEp8KBg2QSW4Yc/solidgoldmagikarp-iii-glitch-token-archaeology
< 1767646952 581805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Yep. I'm doing experiments on that 150GiB machine. I also build stuff like the Linux kernel, systemd, and Firefox, which can't be built on their target machines either. A *lot of things* need high-RAM machines to build!
> 1767646965 701468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172304&oldid=172254 5* 03A() 5* (-157) 10/* Calculator */
< 1767647074 911947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At any rate, OpenAI's products need RAM *on the GPU board* so that the GPU can quickly access it, and that is *not* in competition with consumer RAM markets. What actually happened: Micron's winding down their Crucial consumer brand and this is raising prices because there's now less competition.
> 1767647083 590556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172305&oldid=172304 5* 03A() 5* (+18) 10
> 1767647131 621084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03 5* 10moved [[02EmojiStack10]] to [[Mojifunge]] over redirect
> 1767647131 639826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03 5* 10 deleted redirect [[02Mojifunge10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[EmojiStack]]"
> 1767647183 506634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EmojiStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172308&oldid=172307 5* 03 5* (+2162) 10Removed redirect to [[Mojifunge]]
< 1767647431 776887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, the problem is that less memory is being produced because one major manufacturer's entire memory-production capacity was bought up
< 1767647476 120788 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, it's been *allocated*. It hasn't actually been *paid for*. Big difference.
< 1767647507 165083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was hoping that Micron would ensure that this was being paid for in advance, especially as I expect some of their few remaining customers to go bankrupt at some point (maybe soon)
< 1767647538 4840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm more wondering about what's going to happen to all this neural-network hardware when the bubble bursts
< 1767647545 675847 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, the secondhand market hasn't seen a shift. I don't have a problem with people insisting on fresh DIMMs, but it's just like with new cars: you're paying that premium because it's new and you lose 20% of the value the moment it's driven off the lot.
< 1767647591 918952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't possibly make sense for it to be needed in this high quantity *even if* LLMs turn out to be successful and long-lived, people will work out the largest model they need and use just the resources on it that are needed
< 1767647634 227871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least for me, with respect to memory and data storage, second-hand doesn't make sense because by the time people stop using the memory/storage it is normally exponentially smaller than things that are cheaply currently available
< 1767647635 119481 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it's not neural-network hardware. It's matrix-multiplying hardware. Maybe some more specialized groups like Coral will have trouble selling their TPU-on-a-stick, but Google's TPU business has only grown with time.
< 1767647675 362227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically dense matrices, right? spare matrices need different algorithms, so that reduces the use cases somewhat
< 1767647687 430249 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* sparse matrices
< 1767647697 327276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're thinking of nVidia, rumor is that the GPUs they're selling to Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and Coreweave aren't really suitable for GPGPU workloads. They're more like Bitcoin-mining ASICs; they *could* be reused but they're somewhat specialized and have shorter projected lifespans.
< 1767647706 950363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the number format may not generalise well either, neural networks often use very low-precision numbers
< 1767647720 205743 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, dense matrices. Like, Coral was originally targeting image-classification workloads IIRC.
< 1767647918 69860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, my opinions/predictions about the future of technology is "LLMs are a dead end that will never be substantially more useful than they are today (where their usefulness is somewhat limited), but neural networks / machine learning in general are useful and probably underutilised"
< 1767647962 356726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even so, I'm concerned about the quantity of fast neural-network hardware, because most plausible applications for them don't need to be at that kind of scale (even LLMs almost certainly don't need to be – for most of the tasks at which LLMs are good, smaller language models would also be good)
< 1767648020 109734 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would point out something new in every era of language modeling, going all the way back to Markov. LLMs have given us the ability to compare sentences for semantic similarity, and more generally to embed sentences into a vector space over floats; it's not nothing!
< 1767648055 927139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :r/counting breaking ChatGPT's token inference is both amazing, and extremely plausible – the entire subreddit is almost entirely based on comment volume
< 1767648080 119506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(IIRC I intentionally contributed exactly 1 number to that count – but I don't use Reddit nowadays)
< 1767648174 977945 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the state of the art becomes something other than attention-transformers, will people come up with a new term or will they keep calling everything "LLM" and obfuscating the difference?
< 1767648201 853442 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the main problem with LLMs is that the products based on them are making horribly false and misleading claims. More generally, the project of robotics/AI is to create artifical laborers without rights, which we should reject on multiple moral grounds.
< 1767648425 528578 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thoroughly uninterested in arguments about attention-transformers that rely _solely_ on the consequences of being a finite system, unless the speaker is trying to argue for duality and/or biological hypercomputation
< 1767648517 904616 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :kind of reminds me of the "we know a bunch of strategies to prove P!=NP that cannot possibly work because they relativize, in some sense, and P=NP under some oracles"
< 1767648598 278119 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that P≠NP situation is one of those results that makes the situation so much harder to resolve – we have a proof that entire classes of P≠NP proofs cannot possibly work, but it is not powerful enough to prove that P=NP even nonconstructively
< 1767648614 153961 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767648650 955176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not possible for P=?NP to be proven formally undecidable, right? because doing so would prove that no polynomial-time algorithm for solving NP-complete problems exist, and thus that P≠NP
< 1767648659 729015 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Personally I'm pretty sensitive to the difference because I study Mamba, RWKV, and other recurrent/transformers hybrids. I think that it's nice to have a basis for confabulation that makes oracles and genies impossible, even though I know that it won't convince everybody.
< 1767648660 123105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so if P=?NP is formally undecidable, there will be no way to prove it
< 1767648736 359024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, Hofstadter (when discussing the Church-Turing thesis) brings up the possibility of biological hypercomputation (not as something he believes in, but as something he wasn't sure he could rule out definitively)
< 1767648771 985420 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible that P=NP but no correct algorithm can be proven correct for all inputs
< 1767648811 438028 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sigma_2
< 1767648901 830556 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether P=NP is arithmetic, I thought? So it *has* an answer. Maybe we don't have a strong-enough number theory yet.
< 1767648999 538291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the case of an algorithm that is correct but cannot be proven so is interesting – I've seen similar situations before
< 1767649038 508339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the case of P=NP, such algorithms would practically be very useful because they cannot give the *wrong* answer, only a correct answer or a "don't know" (because checking if a purported solution to an NP problem is correct is fast)
< 1767649136 36444 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a fairly standard approach, iterate over a program index and a runtime and stop when one of the programs outputs a satisfying assignment
< 1767649164 749579 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :easily proven to be correct and, conditionally on P=NP, runs in time of some polynomial
< 1767649237 274144 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't read Russian, but I gather that Levin's entire research programme worked that way. First, show that a brute search is complete and correct; second, show that it is optimal; third, show that it is NP-complete.
< 1767649266 404334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So P vs NP is purely about determining the runtime of those algorithms; it's a fine-structure question about the Polynomial Hierarchy.
< 1767649276 327372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: oh right, because for any given problem in P, this only has to search through finitely many programs and the number of programs it has to search doesn't depend on the input
< 1767649283 270326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the result is polynomial-time but with a terrible constant factor
< 1767649298 605984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if P≠NP, this algorithm is still correct but it isn't polynomial-time
< 1767649445 909360 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with "prove brute force search is optimal" is that it generally _isn't_, the exponential time hypothesis is a subtler statement than that
< 1767649587 702876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, we know an algorithm that solves NP programs in polynomial time if P=NP, but this is useless for two reasons, one is that even though it's polynomial time it's quite slow for our hardware, the other is that most likely P≠NP
< 1767649676 878305 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Right, and even folks like myself who are skeptical of SETH are still usually willing to concede ETH. AIUI we have no evidence against ETH, and instead we have stuff like phase transitions in k-SAT.
< 1767649693 439566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not only is it polynomial time, it also gives you the lowest possible polynomial degree
< 1767649727 877565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was planning to do something similar in a golfing language – run all possible evaluation orders in parallel
< 1767649772 558901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because often when you're writing a golfed program, some of the evaluation orders terminate and others go into infinite loops, so this would guarantee that the program would terminate if there was any evaluation order for which it terminated
< 1767649788 79329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in code golf, correctly behaving programs are almost always expected to terminate)
< 1767649892 309632 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tangent: Nobody has implemented [[Pola]] yet. If you can implement any NPC problem in Pola then P=NP. I'd expect any true believers in P=NP to jump at this opportunity to do some descriptive complexity theory with witnessing programs.
< 1767649956 903384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I think I assign a higher probability to the possibility that P=NP than most computer scientists do (although it's still fairly low)
< 1767649971 100778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are so many cases where things turned out to have a lower complexity than expected
< 1767650093 501499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm one of those Bayesian freaks, and my prior is a composite of several surveys; I'm 99% sure that we are in either Minicrypt or Cryptomania based on empirical evidence. This is a relatively weak belief, so I could be moved by evidence, but it's above the magic threshold of 7/8, so I hold it.
< 1767650216 656448 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, my beliefs about P=NP are fairly weak and could easily be moved by evidence – but on the other hand, I'm not expecting substantial new evidence any time soon
< 1767650257 236628 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tangent to LLMs: My P(doom from AI) is too small to numerically estimate. It's dominated by e.g. P(doom from nuclear apocalypse), which is like 0.5%. I think people panic too much about black-swan events while ignoring the underlying patterns and implied required maintenance of societal infrastructure.
< 1767650257 860655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I have a complexity question. your input is a Catan board (hex grid) of unlimited size and the information of which edges have a road by the yellow player. The number of roads is also unlimited, unlike in real Catan and its extensions. Is there a polynomial time algorithm to find the longest path of roads that doesn't reuse any road?
> 1767650259 430145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172309&oldid=172161 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-133) 10
< 1767650265 47136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was brought up to believe in Bayesianism, although that mostly just left me questioning it a bit
< 1767650355 804352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is an easy problem in real Catan, which is limited to 14 road pieces per player, and I think even in all Catan expansions though I don't actually know most of them, heuristics work well enough for those small inputs. but I don't know a general polynomial time algorithm, nor can prove that it's NP-hard
< 1767650356 167027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the way I see it is that a) the theoretical risk from a sufficiently smart AI is very large, but the odds that such an AI actually exists or could be created short term is very small; b) in addition to risks from underestimating AIs, there are also risks from overestimating AIs, and those could potentially be much larger (but the odds of them being apocalyptic are quite low)
< 1767650394 917920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I live in a long-term earthquake zone (Cascadia Subduction Zone) and so I need something like Bayesianism to manage the existential dread from the Floor of Damocles.
< 1767650400 624341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hehe, that's https://xkcd.com/552/
< 1767650420 607236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, if a country assumes an LLM is smarter than humans and decides to put it in charge of the government as a consequence, that could have huge consequences if the LLM
< 1767650465 638003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* if the LLM isn't particularly smart
< 1767650604 929970 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to call that "probably NP-complete" as a variant of the planar longest path problem but I haven't looked closely at that recently enough to know where the cutoff is
< 1767650642 705552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Does it have to be a usable road? Like, does it have to stretch from port to port?
< 1767650654 56707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no
< 1767650702 458100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: "planar longest path"? I'll try to search for that, good idea
< 1767650748 864103 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767650782 216658 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's understandable. I think that your framing, which I've heard from other folks, is 100% reasonable. At the same time, there's a parallel framing where we talk about e.g. P(doom from pyramid scheme). We won't go extinct from a pyramid scheme, but in 1997 one nearly destroyed the government of Albania!
< 1767650829 762522 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So should I say that P(doom from pyramid scheme) is high because government leaders are stupid enough to do it again, internationally, or low because pyramid schemes are obviously silly and we're all more reasonable people than that?
< 1767650945 940023 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Statistically "giant meteor" is surprisingly high on the list of most likely things to kill any given person
< 1767650979 14032 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think that this is techically a "longest trail problem", where a trail is a path that doesn't reuse edges but can reuse vertices. Not sure how you feel about that. I am not sure whether it's NP-hard, but it probably is reducible to longest-path by putting some restriction on vertices.
< 1767651038 273381 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Exactly! So should we talk of P(doom to me, personally, because of my personal choices) or P(doom to a country because its leader was influenced by something on their phone)?
< 1767651047 476386 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :catan roads are a cubic graph, you can't reuse a vertex except at the beginning or the end because that would require a degree >= 4
< 1767651067 12482 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or P(doom to somebody, somewhere, alive today)
< 1767651114 132522 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :subcubic
< 1767651123 698364 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, that'd work. So the longest trail can't be longer than the longest path + 2. Nice.
< 1767651164 818215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :giant meteors are less worrying nowadays than they historically were because a) governments do actually check for them and would probably compete to being able to take credit for preventing doom from them, and b) the more devastating a meteor hit would be, the easier the meteor would be to spot and thus the earlier we could do something about it
< 1767651214 981369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: on the hex grid these are almost the same, because every node has at most 3 degree, so you can only reuse nodes at the ends of the path, so the length can differ by at most 2.
< 1767651216 247486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we spot a meteor a long distance away, its trajectory only needs to be changed very slightly to prevent it colliding with Earth, so a comparatively small intervention would be sufficient
< 1767651231 873100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, what sorear says
< 1767651277 887840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : So should I say that P(doom from pyramid scheme) is high because government leaders are stupid enough to do it again, internationally ← arguably, with LLMs, government leaders are actually doing that at the moment
< 1767651280 550610 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also like the astrological analogy because it turns out that there are more interstellar comets than we expected, so our P(ancient aliens) should actually have been much higher from a Fermi/Drake approach. But they don't get close to Earth either, so maybe there's a more universal P(things come close to Earth) that we can use as a generalization.
< 1767651305 524906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm hoping that the damage will be confined to a somewhat suboptimal allocation of resources
< 1767651322 497430 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, maybe there's a P(doom from leaders looking at phone) which is more general than P(doom from BTC prices) in El Salvador or P(doom from Stable Diffusion images) in USA.
< 1767651519 677918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah, that's where I am right now too. The pattern of taking Softbank money, taking Saudi money, and finally hitting a wall is well-documented and inevitable at this point; there's simply not a spare trillion USD worth of spare wealth to turn into a spare trillion USD worth of silicon monocrystal.
< 1767651585 306733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So our grey-goo scenario ends in the same place as my yeast during the pre-pancake period: out of food, unable to expand, ready to be converted and eaten in turn.
< 1767651607 87858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen a conjecture that at least some LLM providers are using a strategy of racing to become too big to fail before they actually fail
< 1767651620 833521 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OpenAI, for sure.
< 1767651712 621486 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At this point, OpenAI's actual failure is partially like Microsoft's, where self-cannibalization is inevitable due to stagnant monopoly, but also increasingly like Enron's, a staggering amount of book-cooking that destroyed one of the big international auditors in turn. Not sure if Enron's taught outside the USA.
< 1767651745 365170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in the UK, I think most people have heard of Enron and have a basic idea of what happened to them, but don't know the details – at least I'm in that situation
< 1767651770 504984 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The dude that unwound Enron is currently in charge of unwinding FTX. I think it will be an amazing cap to a career if he's appointed to unwind OpenAI.
< 1767651780 458028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is sometimes hard for me to know what situation the typical person would be in, due to not being a typical person myself – but I have to guess whether my atypicalities are relevant to the situation
< 1767651821 405122 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Enron was a power utility in Texas. They cooked their books. Their auditor helped them cover up the books. That's really all that matters; it was a *big* fraud, mostly.
< 1767651836 56981 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as someone directly affected I could probably know more about them than I do
< 1767651917 887713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what the incentives are, for someone engaged in accounting fraud, to do it to a small extent rather than a large extent – it's well-established that for most crimes you want such incentives to exist, to discourage criminals from deciding to go all-in once they've decided to commit crimes in the first place
< 1767651967 980485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ok, I think you're right, so apparently it's NP-complete to determine if a planar graph has a hamiltonian circuit, which is an old result from the 70s but I hadn't recalled it, and I think you can do a polynomial reduction from this to the catan longest road problem, so that one is NP-complete too.
< 1767651974 770470 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's the "here's one of the great natural language training datasets" angle, the "here's the blood that CAISO's market rules were written in" angle, and the "corporate fraud" angle, the last of which I know the least about
< 1767652063 185146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was just about to reply! So I think I've informally sketched that it's NP-complete. The missing piece is how to ensure that there aren't any trails which are longer than the longest path but built from the *second-longest* path. I think that we can do a poly-time reduction: when doing the NP-complete longest-path search, we can find all longest paths for free, so let's just find all of the paths within length 2 of the longest path.
< 1767652113 65205 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there can only be poly many such paths, so just iterate through them and make all of the longer trails; there's only six possibilities per path, right? So that's a poly-time reduction.
< 1767652114 64238 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the annoying part will be length-matching the embeddings of edges
< 1767652235 256755 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that a lot of assumptions about how, specifically, AI doom plays out were established in the 20th century and became entrenched with less actual information than we have now
< 1767652372 825798 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. Offering professional services, I'm constantly bumping against the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act (CFAA), which the USA established as a response to a film called "Wargames" which is basically about a teenager SSH'ing into the Pentagon and launching nukes.
< 1767652418 353634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's not a good film. If you want something from that era, "Hackers" is a standard recommendation. It's also dated but at least it's got better representation of actual hacking and social engineering.)
< 1767652489 110501 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, almost all AI doom discussion devolves into referencing "Terminator", "Terminator 2", or "The Matrix". And it's all built upon Asimov and Dick and Heinlein and Bradbury, which in turn was built upon "Metropolis" and "Rossum's Universal Robots".
< 1767652507 309181 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :arguably a machine which can hallucinate on any subject _is_ an AGI as the term was originally defined, illustrating the limitations of the concept
< 1767652584 411718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I've considered for a while that corporations are, in effect, artificial general intelligences
< 1767652600 768693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are powered by human thought, which makes them not count from many people's points of view
< 1767652619 957277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but sometimes they can act as though they hold opinions that don't match those of any of the people present, and they can certainly take actions that reasonable humans likely wouldn't take
< 1767652620 211161 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At a former employer, P(doom from AI) was not a serious topic, but P(person is killed by cobot) was a real thing we discussed. I'm told that P(person is killed by high-speed swinging arm) is a real thing too, although fortunately I've not had one of *those* jobs. Yet.
< 1767652672 397484 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a lot of people communicating and form an emergent system out of them, and not really have much of an idea of how the system as a whole will behave
< 1767652680 491750 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Charlie Stross, myself, and a few other Awful Systems regulars have discussed this many times. The consensus is that selling shares was the tipping point; the East Indies Trade Company was the first paperclip-maximizer.
< 1767652683 775748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…perhaps this would be an interesting esolang idea
< 1767652710 945596 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, we locate the Singularity sometime in the past. Stross puts it near the beginning of the Industrial Revolution IIRC; I put it in the 1910s or so, near quantum mechanics.
< 1767652835 223054 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if by "high-speed swinging arm" you mean "sailboat boom"
< 1767653004 153203 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Oh wow. I kind of love that? I was thinking of the welding and assembling arms in a car factory but now I'm also thinking of big looms. I see robotics, cybernetics, and AI as the same thing; I'd be willing to think of it as stretching further back, too.
> 1767653017 350237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172310&oldid=172236 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10/* P */
> 1767653045 15267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172311&oldid=172237 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1767653063 517316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Phurb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172312 5* 03Buckets 5* (+782) 10Created page with "Phurb is an Esoteric Programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. ] {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | "" || Print What is within The Quotes, their representations. |- | m = || Represent the Variable m as whatever US On the Other side Of t
< 1767653210 214166 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i spent a week on a ship with the boom at head height, did not get paid
< 1767653247 217118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Terrifying and frustrating.
< 1767653337 850910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Oh! I'm sorry, 3 × 3 = 9 possible paths, not 6.
> 1767654115 339115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172313&oldid=172300 5* 03Corbin 5* (+487) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */ Machine or language?
< 1767654309 280535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1767654700 801928 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767654828 924740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I've seen you claim a few times that a programming language must be a language over an alphabet – I'm not sure I agree
< 1767654914 428189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it maybe comes down to whether or not there's a distinction between a program and a description of a program
< 1767654942 477572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if a program isn't represented as a string of symbols, we have to convert it to one in order to be able to describe it to a computer in order to have it executed
< 1767655495 713924 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm saying it for the benefit of the youngsters, to force them to clarify their thinking. I'd hope that my structuring of the page, so that we have many different kinds of computational systems and different metrics for each of them, is open enough to accomodate more non-languages.
< 1767655622 234545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here, the clarity is in realizing that a BF machine must have eight opcodes, but a BF monoid might have smaller rank.
< 1767655904 447425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1767655984 727546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: such as the classic wrapping-BF technique of implementing a - as 255 +s
< 1767656028 60445 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that works.
< 1767657360 438399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even without wrapping, you can have -< as a single builtin instead of - and < separately, I think that's a well-known trick
< 1767657487 218430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then rewrite < to + -< and rewrite - to -< > and add an extra > to the start of the program so you don't fall off the start of the tape
< 1767657504 657396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole BF minimization page is full of people starting like this and then going off the rails
< 1767657552 107855 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simple_translation is an attempt to make sense of the mess
< 1767657567 932687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and might correspond to korvo's concept of language rank
< 1767657585 705429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And [[monoid]] is an attempt to make sense of [[simple translation]], since so much of that is actually unproven and imprecise.