00:01:12 <ais523> well, it's a definition, so "unproven" doesn't really make sense as an adjective to apply to it
00:03:12 <ais523> I think I would make it precise as follows: you have two transformations, each of which consistently replaces a single character in the source code of one language with a sequence of characters in the source code of the other (one where the single characters are from one language, one where the single characters are from the other), and for any syntactically valid program in either language, compiling it into the other language using the appropriate
00:03:14 <ais523> transformation yields a program with the same halting-and-IO behaviour
00:05:17 <ais523> I suspect that BF can be compiled into a two-symbol language under this definition, incidentally (but with the tape contents looking very different – there might not even be a tape in the other language)
00:06:24 <korvo> Oh, the definition of ST is fine, yes. I mean the various claims about Brainfuck.
00:06:41 <korvo> Some of this should go to dedicated pages. Boolfuck seems like a common target.
00:12:18 <ais523> oh, there are a huge number of dubious/impossible claims about BF on the minimalization page
00:13:00 <ais523> to me, things like claims to combine [] into a single instruction are implausible and need very strong evidence to convince me
00:18:02 <b_jonas> if you don't insist on translating each character to the same string and you're willing to take an exponential program size hit then compiling to a two symbol language is easy enough. one symbol does >+ the other is just an interpreter that counts the number of 1 cells before the 0 cell at the start of the tape then interprets that as a program.
00:19:45 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172314&oldid=171995 * NTMDev * (+238)
00:21:22 <ais523> b_jonas: the challenge to me is entirely the "translate each character to the same string" problem
00:22:54 <ais523> actually, something that makes it much easier is that for the translate-into-BF direction, you can make the translation of both commands contain nested balanced loops, rather than one having to be opening-unbalanced and the other having to be closing-unbalanced
00:23:49 <ais523> the idea is to make both commands compile into BF code that records the command, and then interprets as much of the program as it's seen, stopping when more program text is needed to continue the interpretation
00:24:00 <ais523> actually I think this solves the entire problem when using some sort of binary-encoded-BF
00:25:38 <esolangs> [[ASTLang (Fast Lookup)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172315 * NTMDev * (+169) Created page with "This is the faster, more efficient lookup table for ASTLang functions and their parameters. If you want a more detailed explanation for each function, go to [[ASTLang]]."
00:25:55 <sorear> Basically just macro-expressibility?
00:26:04 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172316&oldid=172314 * NTMDev * (+41) /* Info */
00:26:14 <esolangs> [[ASTLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172317&oldid=172316 * NTMDev * (+1) /* Info */
00:26:54 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not convinced. how do you find the start of the interpreted program if you aren't allowed to add a prelude to the translated brainfuck program?
00:27:38 <b_jonas> oh I see, same way as what I said
00:27:44 <ais523> b_jonas: you can easily make the BF program (say) leave the tape pointer on a 1 at the end of each command, so it knows it's the first command if it sees a 0 there
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02:39:36 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172318&oldid=172046 * Placeholding * (+2)
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04:40:31 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172319 * QuantumCalculator * (+6945) Created Page
04:44:22 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172320&oldid=172319 * QuantumCalculator * (+2097) Added a brainfuck interpreter
04:45:09 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172321&oldid=172320 * QuantumCalculator * (+4) Linked to tc page
04:45:57 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172322&oldid=172321 * QuantumCalculator * (+66) /* Overview */
04:47:05 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172323&oldid=172322 * QuantumCalculator * (+80) Categorized
04:48:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172324&oldid=172310 * QuantumCalculator * (+17) Added flipscript
04:56:48 <esolangs> [[Flipscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172325&oldid=172323 * QuantumCalculator * (+0) math is hard
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07:03:58 <korvo> https://enclose.horse/
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09:07:31 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172326&oldid=172301 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+12) /* Semantics */
09:07:41 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172327&oldid=172326 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-20) /* Semantics */
09:08:32 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172328&oldid=172327 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-264) /* Examples */
09:19:01 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172329&oldid=172083 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Mint */ add space so its an actual code section
09:19:23 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172330&oldid=172329 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+54) /* Basic Stack */
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09:47:12 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172331&oldid=172328 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+121) /* Semantics */
09:51:01 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172332&oldid=172331 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+144) /* Examples */
09:52:59 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172333&oldid=172332 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+80) /* Examples */
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09:55:18 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172334&oldid=172333 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-38) /* Examples */
09:55:54 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172335&oldid=172334 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Syntax */
10:01:25 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172336&oldid=172335 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+51) /* Syntax */
10:21:24 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172337&oldid=172336 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+130) /* Examples */
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10:27:59 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172338&oldid=172277 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1214)
10:42:06 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172339&oldid=172338 * Yoyolin0409 * (+802)
10:42:25 <esolangs> [[Nope]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172340&oldid=168235 * Ractangle * (+755)
10:43:23 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172341&oldid=172339 * Yoyolin0409 * (-6) /* English */
10:52:21 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172342&oldid=172341 * Yoyolin0409 * (+198) /* English */
10:52:41 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172343&oldid=172342 * Yoyolin0409 * (+11)
10:54:54 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172344&oldid=172343 * Yoyolin0409 * (+2) /* Writing basic documents */
10:56:28 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ATechPerson * New user account
11:00:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172345&oldid=172233 * ATechPerson * (+253) introduction
11:00:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172346&oldid=172345 * ATechPerson * (+94) sign
11:01:08 <esolangs> [[User:ATechPerson]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172347 * ATechPerson * (+29) create page
11:02:12 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172348&oldid=172344 * Yoyolin0409 * (+164)
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11:14:36 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172351&oldid=172350 * Yoyolin0409 * (+857)
11:18:13 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172352&oldid=172351 * Yoyolin0409 * (+515)
11:21:24 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172353&oldid=172352 * Yoyolin0409 * (+490) /* Hello, world! */
11:28:22 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172354&oldid=172353 * Yoyolin0409 * (-10) /* English */
11:32:52 <esolangs> [[Standard Test Paper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172355&oldid=172354 * Yoyolin0409 * (+251)
11:35:29 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172356&oldid=171378 * Yoyolin0409 * (+10)
11:36:35 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172357&oldid=172356 * Yoyolin0409 * (-1) /* See Also */
11:37:31 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172358&oldid=172357 * Yoyolin0409 * (-2)
11:46:28 <esolangs> [[Minecraft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172359&oldid=171245 * Yoyolin0409 * (+2) /* Instruction list */
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12:08:34 <esolangs> [[Quineless I cannot understand that.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172360 * None1 * (+536) Created page with "'''Quineless I cannot understand that.''' is [[I cannot understand that.]] but there's no (non-empty) [[quine]], it's invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Commands== Every ''line'' is a command which prints: I cannot understand that. I cannot underst
12:10:03 <esolangs> [[I cannot understand that.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172361&oldid=171574 * None1 * (+55)
12:11:00 <esolangs> [[Rpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172362&oldid=126997 * Yoyolin0409 * (+95)
12:11:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172363&oldid=172324 * None1 * (-32) /* I */
12:12:21 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172364&oldid=171876 * None1 * (+75) /* General languages */
12:14:05 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172365&oldid=171898 * None1 * (+49) /* My Esolangs */
12:26:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * River * New user account
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12:50:57 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172366&oldid=172337 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1001) /* Aphasia */
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12:57:38 <esolangs> [[Rpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172367&oldid=172362 * Yoyolin0409 * (+38) /* Truth machine */
13:06:14 <esolangs> [[Rpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172368&oldid=172367 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1) /* Cat */
13:08:20 <esolangs> [[Rpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172369&oldid=172368 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1) /* Cat */
13:21:07 <esolangs> [[Brainless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172370&oldid=106599 * RikoMamaBala * (+1178)
13:48:30 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172371&oldid=172366 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Combinators */
14:09:51 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172372&oldid=172371 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+71) /* Examples */
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15:06:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dragoneater67 * New user account
15:14:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172374&oldid=172346 * Dragoneater67 * (+205) /* Introductions */
15:14:49 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172375&oldid=161277 * Dragoneater67 * (+25) /* "Examples" */
15:18:52 <esolangs> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172376&oldid=172375 * Dragoneater67 * (+74) /* Implementations */
15:36:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172377&oldid=172269 * * (+597) /* i always see you in the school account */ new section
15:38:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere2(school)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172378&oldid=172377 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+243) /* i always see you in the school account */
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16:09:41 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Countable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172379&oldid=172294 * Aadenboy * (-12)
16:09:51 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172380&oldid=172379 * Aadenboy * (+10) Turing tarpt
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16:15:15 <esolangs> [[Apraxia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172381&oldid=172372 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* Examples */
16:23:50 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172382&oldid=172380 * Aadenboy * (+429) implement a subtraction algorithm
16:26:12 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172383&oldid=172382 * Aadenboy * (+8) possible* Turing tarpit
16:35:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172384&oldid=172296 * Aadenboy * (+337) minsky machine?
16:42:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172385&oldid=172384 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+307)
17:36:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172386 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+106) Created page with "Does this language allow "full" lambda calculus? can you pass lambdas to other lambdas an curry and so on?"
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17:54:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172387&oldid=172386 * Aadenboy * (+279)
17:54:37 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172388&oldid=172387 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+156)
17:58:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172389&oldid=172388 * Aadenboy * (+289)
17:59:32 <esolangs> [[RusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172390&oldid=167116 * Esoboring ideas * (+11) /* Childish dialect */
17:59:49 <esolangs> [[RusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172391&oldid=172390 * Esoboring ideas * (-4) /* Childish dialect */
17:59:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172392&oldid=172389 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+166)
18:01:31 <esolangs> [[RusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172393&oldid=172391 * Esoboring ideas * (+21) /* To mention */
18:03:08 <esolangs> [[Pythonable RusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172394&oldid=167110 * Esoboring ideas * (+29) /* The reduction */
18:06:05 <esolangs> [[Pythonable RusLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172395&oldid=172394 * Esoboring ideas * (+81) /* The reduction */
18:20:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 4A10LOAIH * New user account
18:31:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:FOSMOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172396&oldid=172392 * Aadenboy * (+589)
19:00:26 <esolangs> [[Backtick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172397&oldid=172222 * Splot-dev * (+139) added interpreter link
19:00:50 <esolangs> [[Backtick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172398&oldid=172397 * Splot-dev * (+37) fixed grammar
19:01:35 <esolangs> [[Backtick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172399&oldid=172398 * Splot-dev * (+17) fixed link (wrong link)
19:02:01 <esolangs> [[Folat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172400 * Ytebbit * (+3182) Folat
19:03:18 <esolangs> [[Backtick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172401&oldid=172399 * Splot-dev * (+108) added external link
19:03:26 <esolangs> [[DTM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172402&oldid=170773 * Ytebbit * (+21) Folat redirect
19:06:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172403&oldid=172363 * Ytebbit * (+12) /* F */
19:11:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ConfluentDemiurge * New user account
19:18:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172404&oldid=172374 * ConfluentDemiurge * (+202) /* Introductions */
19:19:45 <esolangs> [[~ATH]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172405&oldid=156879 * ConfluentDemiurge * (+0) /* Implementations */
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19:53:06 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172406&oldid=172125 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+102)
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20:27:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Candidates for deletion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172407&oldid=170601 * Frendoly * (+37)
21:10:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172408&oldid=172385 * Aadenboy * (+728)
21:10:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Countable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172409&oldid=172408 * Aadenboy * (-18)
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21:31:48 <esolangs> [[Nope]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172410&oldid=172340 * Ractangle * (-11)
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22:01:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[User:Aadenboy/Countable]] to [[User:Countable]]: this is at a good position. become real!
22:01:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[User talk:Aadenboy/Countable]] to [[User talk:Countable]]: this is at a good position. become real!
22:01:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[User:Countable]] to [[Countable]]: that is the WRONG namespace
22:01:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aadenboy * moved [[User talk:Countable]] to [[Talk:Countable]]: that is the WRONG namespace
22:03:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172419&oldid=171953 * Aadenboy * (+425) /* speedy delete */ new section
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22:04:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Countable]]": redirects created by mistake in an attempt to move a page (and there is no user with this username)
22:04:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Countable]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: redirects created by mistake in an attempt to move a page (and there is no user with this username)
22:05:06 <esolangs> [[Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172420&oldid=172415 * Aadenboy * (+166) categories + link to talk page for the moment
22:06:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172421&oldid=172403 * Aadenboy * (+16) /* C */ add [[Countable]]
22:08:47 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172422&oldid=172286 * Aadenboy * (+267) add [[Countable]]
22:09:05 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172423&oldid=172146 * Aadenboy * (-28) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/172146|172146]] by [[Special:Contributions/Aadenboy|Aadenboy]] ([[User talk:Aadenboy|talk]])
22:09:22 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172424&oldid=169947 * Aadenboy * (+14) add [[Countable]]
22:16:29 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172425&oldid=172404 * Profboady * (+338) Hi! I am Professor Mark Boady at Drexel. I added my introduction.
22:21:54 <esolangs> [[Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172426&oldid=172420 * Aadenboy * (+104) add interpreter
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22:38:04 <fizzie> Finally did something I've always wanted to do, namely reason out one of those multiplication-based bit twiddling things from first principles, rather than looking it up on a website: https://0x0.st/Pono.txt
22:38:06 <fizzie> It may not be the best way to accomplish it, but at least it left me feeling accomplished.
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22:44:37 <esolangs> [[Rpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172427&oldid=172369 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1) /* Speak() */
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23:02:37 <esolangs> [[Everything Shop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172428 * Yoyolin0409 * (+639) Created page with "'''Everything Shop''' is an esolang by [[User:yoyolin0409]]. Its distinctive feature is that all the instructions appear to be about buying things from a shop. ==Instructions== Purchase <int_value> <var_name> Integer assignment Purchase <var_name> of the <
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23:27:26 <ais523> fizzie: ooh, it's a three-way mingle
23:28:17 <ais523> unfortunately, this is very unlikely to get optimized into PDEP by current compilers
23:28:25 <ais523> maybe if we had one specialised for INTERCAL-style bit-twiddling, it'd be able to figure it out
23:29:30 <fizzie> Well, fortunately (?) the Go compiler isn't that good at optimizing things in the first place, so it likely wouldn't anyway.
23:30:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172429&oldid=172421 * Buckets * (+10) /* M */
23:30:22 <fizzie> There was a proposal to add very PDEP- and PEXT-oriented functions to the "math/bits" stdlib package -- https://github.com/golang/go/issues/45455 -- but it got declined. :/
23:30:26 <esolangs> [[User:Buckets]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172430&oldid=172311 * Buckets * (+9)
23:33:25 <fizzie> (It's for a 3D Z-order curve for a thing that has 7/6/7-bit X/Y/Z coordinates.)
23:48:18 <ais523> Rust's currently considering a proposal to add what's effectively PEXT/PDEP
23:48:36 <ais523> I think the libs-API team thought the functions themselves are fine but weren't sure what to call them
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