< 1769476452 360276 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-197.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement < 1769478125 885706 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat < 1769478174 913756 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan < 1769481649 561493 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1769483879 408490 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo > 1769484300 427319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174345&oldid=174341 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+389) 10 < 1769484629 311469 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.32.63 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp < 1769484629 355934 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.32.63 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp > 1769484907 117869 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174346&oldid=174345 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+247) 10 > 1769485533 289272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174347&oldid=174346 5* 03Corbin 5* (+356) 10Surely it's not subjective depending on whether we are inside or outside the emulator. < 1769497720 749158 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1769498067 328843 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp < 1769498079 301706 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1769498087 122929 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.36.182 NICK :sftp < 1769498089 124496 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp < 1769498350 316800 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo < 1769499533 274414 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1769502840 581429 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Oscarlo 5* 10New user account > 1769503114 44731 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174348&oldid=174342 5* 03Oscarlo 5* (+236) 10 > 1769503489 205774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174349&oldid=174136 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+122) 10 < 1769504892 300682 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1769505153 340257 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1769505355 740818 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo < 1769505441 340345 :Guest72!~Guest72@167.103.27.27 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest72 < 1769505467 752618 :Guest72!~Guest72@167.103.27.27 QUIT :Client Quit > 1769505929 796800 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tina14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174350 5* 03Oscarlo 5* (+18200) 10Created page with "'''Tina''' ('''T'''his '''i'''s '''n'''ot '''a'''ssembly) is an [[esoteric programming language]] with an assembly-like syntax and a deliberately overpowered ALU matrix instruction format. A Tina program is assembled into a linear list of instructions plus an initial memo < 1769506144 313131 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine > 1769506196 512273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tina14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174351&oldid=174350 5* 03Oscarlo 5* (+30) 10 < 1769506301 445580 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1769506740 486324 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi > 1769508277 546202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174352&oldid=173269 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (+43) 10 > 1769508855 707405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07HI9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174353&oldid=116704 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+880) 10 > 1769510943 678787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Uff20xd14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174354&oldid=168174 5* 03Uff20xd 5* (+46) 10Added my github :) > 1769512289 626325 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174355&oldid=174347 5* 03Ais523 5* (+1043) 10thoughts > 1769512727 729483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spin414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174356&oldid=128946 5* 03Michael 5* (+6) 10 > 1769512789 351458 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spin414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174357&oldid=174356 5* 03Michael 5* (+7) 10 > 1769512961 554292 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Spin414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174358&oldid=174357 5* 03Michael 5* (+1) 10 > 1769513289 14619 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Tina14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174359&oldid=174351 5* 03Oscarlo 5* (-2) 10Fixed broken link > 1769513948 138940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:I am islptng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174360&oldid=174349 5* 03I am islptng 5* (-68) 10 > 1769515341 861743 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* 10New user account > 1769516027 921873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174361&oldid=174348 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* (+217) 10 > 1769516089 761316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:watchOS 7, 11 logo.jpg10]]" < 1769516228 485470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) > 1769516434 287057 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174363 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* (+1215) 10Created page with "== Basic information & introduction == Hi! My name is Narek aka watchOS 7, from Armenia. Ive been dealing with extreme outrage on Wikipedia centering around [[wikipedia:WP:SOCK|sockpuppetry]] regarding [[wikipedia:WP:VANDAL|vandalism]] on t < 1769516519 976899 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...sounds like a keeper > 1769516783 59831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Folat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174364&oldid=172400 5* 03Ytebbit 5* (-1) 10fixing link > 1769516884 832490 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None1/InDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174365&oldid=174291 5* 03None1 5* (+103) 10/* Commands */ > 1769517129 896333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174366 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* (+967) 10Created page with "== Portal == {{layout box|bg=#D4DEFF|title=Introduction to users| Welcome to my user talk page! In MediaWiki encyclopedias, a talk page or discussion page is a subpage of an article where people write about which part of the article shou > 1769517375 477851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174367&oldid=174366 5* 03OfficialWatchOS7Alt 5* (+229) 10 < 1769517742 369494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this looks like the sort of account that may have few or no ontopic contributions < 1769517745 251302 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I'll have to see what happens > 1769520187 146097 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174368&oldid=174355 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+429) 10 > 1769520921 841956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174369&oldid=174368 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+249) 10 > 1769521139 221405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Category talk:Zero-dimensional14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174370&oldid=174369 5* 03Ais523 5* (+411) 10these categories were created without discussion (because that rule didn't exist at the time) and it shows > 1769521144 613336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kiwiscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174371&oldid=174137 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-29) 10/* wenyan */ by the currently found definition of "zero dimensional" that ive gotten from asking the wiki, ill be removing that character. > 1769522487 891739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LongFish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174372 5* 03Restruct. 5* (+992) 10added the page < 1769523916 340373 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:94f7:257a:d65f:a67b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic < 1769524348 70087 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat > 1769524983 590104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LongFish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174373&oldid=174372 5* 03Restruct. 5* (+244) 10 > 1769525317 925497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LongFish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174374&oldid=174373 5* 03Restruct. 5* (+336) 10added implementation > 1769525560 398413 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07LongFish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174375&oldid=174374 5* 03Restruct. 5* (+113) 10Z instruction < 1769525680 871822 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1769526066 650663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174376&oldid=174367 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+121) 10fix layout box formatting < 1769526467 912035 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1769528310 710724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1769528351 955597 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1769529265 528298 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:94f7:257a:d65f:a67b QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1769530669 316160 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-197.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname < 1769533348 281109 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1769535679 796777 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1769535749 179679 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1769536115 874724 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: User was born in 2016; they aren't old enough to be here. This is also why they keep getting suspended from social-media sites. They aren't a scammer; they're a child. < 1769536163 905162 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I didn't expect them to be a scammer, just someone who had problems being ontopic < 1769536184 237155 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is also a very common reason to get banned from Wikipedia < 1769536202 765122 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://scratch.mit.edu/users/nareksan056/ is the same user. https://github.com/Orange7Official/ same user, has some basic slop. https://xcancel.com/watchOS7Alt and https://www.youtube.com/@OfficialWatchOS7Alt were useful link trees. < 1769536211 670173 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the underlying reason why doesn't really matter from a moderation poin of view < 1769536238 630638 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm not saying to leave them alone. I'm suggesting that they need to immediately be warned and suspended. < 1769536247 335689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know whether the wiki has an age policy – it wouldn't be up to me to decide one < 1769536278 95917 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and it would be hard to enforce in any case) < 1769536321 264459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :suspending someone who hasn't actually done anything on the site can be hard to justify, even if you suspect they will be trouble < 1769536328 508854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can see a potential argument for deleting the user page, though < 1769536335 711629 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I thought that the wiki was located somewhere that had a minimum age requirement for using the Web. If not, then whatever. I'm not a good babysitter though, and I'm definitely not the right person for talking to an Armenian child with heavy chatbot usage. < 1769536453 548061 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the UK has been discussing an age limit for social media sites, and has a number of rules about them (to the extent that if Esolang did become considered to be a social media site we would probably have to shut the entire site down because the paperwork burden would be too high) < 1769536487 143017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it doesn't currently have an age requirement for websites in general or Internet use in general < 1769536532 480327 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, in the UK? Well, that bites. There's piles of better jurisdictions. I suppose it's not urgent, but I'd hope that we eventually land somewhere friendlier to free speech. < 1769536600 211389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the UK's weird in that the libel rules are strict but the compensation for breaking them is much lower than in places like the US, so nuisance libel suits are rarer < 1769536647 564559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember a time when a major company was found to have libelled someone and the penalty was to require them to post an apology on their website homepage < 1769536678 625930 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The rules are super-loose. Any hurt feelings can be grounds for a suit. Over here in the USA, we teach McLibel as a way of understanding the Isle's pathologies. < 1769536696 72235 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is actually a pretty big penalty for a major company (the marketing department would have fits), but is only useful for the victim if the misinformation was actually doing them harm < 1769536789 32317 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bear in mind that your information may be out of date, there were some pretty major changes in 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_Act_2013 < 1769536811 730739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Getting ready to tell Lobsters that vibecoders are incompetent. https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/bb8cbfd005a33f5dd262d1f20a63a693 < 1769537030 985005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one problem I have is that because vibecoding platforms cost both money and environmental damage, it is hard for me to try them for myself to judge how effective they would be < 1769537038 734653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and thus it makes it difficult to criticise them fairly < 1769537059 824333 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Meh. It's not just libel law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign#%22Probably%22 comes to mind. Also the recent arrest of folks for, essentially, lese majeste. < 1769537099 489639 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I happen to have done a bunch of bertological research as part of my security work, and so I happen to know that LLMs can't write code at a structural level. This is hard to communicate to non-practicioners. < 1769537130 217859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been thinking about my own reasons for disliking it recently < 1769537148 23989 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think one problem is that many programmers seem to have an attitude of "a program that passes all the tests is correct" < 1769537179 565005 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this is wrong in practice some proportion of the time (I am unsure on the exact proportion but it probably isn't that low) < 1769537199 664463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and more likely to be wrong if the tests were written without an understanding of the program that is being tested < 1769537231 945096 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I believe that vibecoding a program to pass a given testsuite is substantially easier than vibecoding one which is actually correct or useful) < 1769537410 695836 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the ASA's rules aren't legally binding (but most places that run adverts will refuse to run rules that breach them, in order to avoid ruining their reputation) < 1769537456 711473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :generally speaking I think most people have a preference for advertisements being factually correct, as opposed to allowing advertisers to state anything they like < 1769537494 769544 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Sure. And, by the Kochen-Specker theorem, the God of Anglicans doesn't exist. More generally, the Anglican God isn't compatible with quantum mechanics. < 1769537522 533382 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see a theocratic monarchy when I look across the pond. < 1769537606 965909 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm very surprised at that – the US President has a lot more power in practice than the British King, and the Republican Party has to a large extent been taken over by people who apply Christian religious reasoning, whereas the Houses of Parliament have a much lower level of religious influence < 1769537638 484474 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a bit ironic that the US legally has a separation of church and state, but has a very large level of church influence on politics in general < 1769537655 324944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas in the UK there are legal links between the church and state and yet they don't normally have a large effect at all < 1769537685 98223 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, yes, I see a Christofascist tyranny at home. But I can be nuanced, too; I can look at e.g. Alabama and see a theocracy, while looking at e.g. Oregon and seeing a democracy. The difference is pretty stark; Alabaman judges quote the KJV Bible when setting precedent. < 1769537689 144634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd much rather be in a de-jure (but not de-facto) theocratic monarchy than vice versa < 1769537721 65480 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why not both? https://prestonbyrne.com/2026/01/08/the-ofcom-files-part-v-block-harder/ < 1769537783 194974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the Online Safety Act – this is clearly a mess and badly designed, but was enacted based on populism (the things that it was intended to stop are real problems that you do want a law against – but the law itself is badly written and doesn't achieve its goals correctly) < 1769537909 44398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do remember a dispute recently where a site claimed that it had blocked the UK, and Ofcom stated that if it had blocked the UK that would be sufficient to comply with the act, but it didn't believe that the block had actually happened; however, I don't know whether or not it's the same site as the one you posted or not < 1769537909 792507 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. And unlike in a direct democracy (e.g. Oregon), the people aren't empowered to directly change the law. < 1769537936 420712 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Switzerland is a good example of a direct democracy IIRC < 1769537970 574157 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It'd be that one, likely. SaSu. I'm honestly not surprised; the Commonwealth has collectively been *very* angry about the existence of SaSu while making MAID available. It's a fairly obvious hypocrisy driven by the inability of politicians to make everyday life acceptable for everyday people. < 1769538006 484396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general I am not convinced direct democracy is necessarily a good idea, populations as a whole can often be manipulated into making decisions they'll regret later < 1769538034 984677 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(a common example: ballot initiatives in US states are often misleadingly worded in the hope of tricking a proportion of people into voting against their own interests) < 1769538042 473723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Oregon started out ambiguous on gay marriage, then a vote made gay marriage illegal, then another vote made it explicitly legal. < 1769538054 784584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :our most recent referendum, the Brexit referendum, was clearly a bad idea and did not work out well < 1769538076 66677 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1769538083 608424 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Note that, unlike most states, Oregon allows voters to change their constitution *and* allows voters to refer nearly any motion whatsoever to the people. If something fails in legislature then it goes to the street and we sign petitions for it. < 1769538160 138273 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, yeah. That's the other difficulty in the UK: because so many of the laws stretch back to "nobles say so", there's no strong guardrails preventing stupid actions. Like, recently Idaho floated the idea of acquiring about half of Oregon, including a port city. This idea immediately faltered as soon as they were told that Idaho would have to *buy* it from Oregon. < 1769538174 339411 :Guest54!~Guest54@2401:4900:1c00:635a:5c9d:a5a4:b6ff:8d9d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest54 < 1769538216 362367 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whereas in other parts of the world, we might have to put up with some Lord Potato, Marquis of Greater Idaho, insisting that they have some grant. Here instead we have armed religious fanatics who sieze government buildings, get into standoffs with the FBI, and sometimes get shot. < 1769538232 522715 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I actually like having the nobles around and involved, they're mostly better at delaying stupid ideas than they are at creating them (and our laws only give them the power to delay – they cannot outright stop a law going through if the Commons is determined, nor increase the threshold above 50%, but they do have a constitutional ability to slow down the process) < 1769538292 89206 :Guest54!~Guest54@2401:4900:1c00:635a:5c9d:a5a4:b6ff:8d9d QUIT :Client Quit < 1769538336 371906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forget exactly how it works, but it's something like the Lords get to give feedback, the Commons often incorporates it if it's a good idea, if the Commons don't change the proposed law to the Lord's satisfaction they can halt the whole process and return to the starting point, but they can't do it twice on the same proposal so the Commons can force a law through by going through the whole process twice < 1769538366 904012 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is very good for stopping knee-jerk proposals because by the time it gets through the process a second time, the MPs might have calmed down a bit < 1769538467 440640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Bicamerality is a good idea, I think. It's kind of stupid that it's based on the idea that one House is very hard to get into without either inheriting money or being quite exploitative. < 1769538490 158294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have endless debates about who actually *should* be in the Lords < 1769538511 783720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really, though, you just want a range of viewpoints and experiences and then the actual makeup doesn't hugely matter < 1769538537 498036 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To use a snowclone: Elect people. Not too many. Mostly qualified. < 1769538540 274884 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :currently most Lords are nominated by outgoing prime ministers (although not all of them) < 1769538554 664027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which almost guarantees the mix of viewpoints, at least < 1769538613 177776 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right, we have *both* wings of Eton's dormitories represented~ < 1769538723 837310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Labour party is in power about half the time, they probably wouldn't appoint very many Etonites < 1769538753 339388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the Conservatives would but they have pretty much destroyed their own credibility recently and are unlikely to be elected in the near future unless there's a major political shift) < 1769538877 632405 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :One could hope. Labour's turned into just another neoliberal party for me. I still remember the 2000s fairly well due to the incredible jingoism of the time, and now it looks like there's going to be another wave of...I don't know what to call it. Jingoism? Chauvinism? Thatcherism? It doesn't look like a leftist party at all. < 1769538943 852924 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the fully left parts are the Socialist Worker Party and to some extent the Green Party, but they aren't popular enough to be elected < 1769538950 289270 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have an essay on the backburner, "The Sword and The Shield", precisely about how pairs of neoliberal parties operate in developed democracies. Labour is a Shield party and primarily gathers sympathy by defending people from the Sword of Conservatives. < 1769538963 977582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Labour moved to the right to some extent recently to fill a gap in the centre after the Conservatives moved hard to the right < 1769538990 55834 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. I often vote Green. We also have a proper labor party, called the Working Families Party, but they usually endorse Democrats instead of also-running. < 1769538995 77814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the UK population is well to the right of you, though, so they are not likely to elect parties that have the same opinions of you < 1769539011 820255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* same opinions as you < 1769539041 150311 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Anglophone population in general is well to the right of me. 80% of them believe in God and 96% of them distrust me because I know better than that. I've made my peace with it, mostly by lowering my opinion of humanity. < 1769539142 83692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the thing that frustrates me most about politics is that parties that are driven by idealism usually have better policies than parties that are driven by practicality, but are less good at implementing their policies and so they often produce a worse result in practice (note: I'm excluding parties driven by populism in this because I don't have enough experience to know how it ends up, although I'm not hopeful) < 1769539163 833611 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. That's an instance of Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy. < 1769539199 372850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The people who cling to power most ferociously tend to overlap with the people who are genuinely emotionally invested in the well-being of the state. < 1769539858 881518 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1769540480 569552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Alrighty. I’m tired of hearing about vibecoding on Lobsters, so I’ve written up three of my side tasks for coding agents. Talk is cheap; show us the code. https://lobste.rs/s/igpevt/lobsters_vibecoding_challenge_winter < 1769542825 689777 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1769542880 49497 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1769542996 109729 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1769543563 350651 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:94f7:257a:d65f:a67b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic > 1769544221 446012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Circle of Life14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174377&oldid=123520 5* 03Shamrocky 5* (-1) 10/* Basic functions */ Fixed a small error with spelling < 1769547101 665521 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:94f7:257a:d65f:a67b QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1769547599 442922 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1769548690 312307 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1769551062 79654 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can critise one vibecoding that someone had shown to me as an example, writing a prompt to Claude to make a program in C to calculate the first 200 prime numbers. Since it is a simple example, it works, although I examined the code and the algorithm used is not as efficient as it should be. It is not something I use or intend to use, for several reasons. < 1769551324 325562 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(My objections include ais523's objections as well as Dijkstra's objections and others, and also the one that I had noticed myself that I had just mentioned) < 1769553217 750483 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night < 1769553443 166537 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: what are Dijkstra's objections? < 1769554025 968347 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That it is not precise < 1769554047 278981 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's a good concern < 1769554126 785519 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, there is a followup problem from this: in vibecoded software, neither the prompts nor the resulting document in a programming language are a usable form in which to edit the resulting program < 1769554142 149624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the prompts are not reproducible and the source is not structured < 1769554407 583627 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes, there is that too < 1769554810 452374 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1769555270 901750 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1769556159 813702 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:4c4c:3bb8:a5c6:557e QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1769556408 65878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"not reproducible" => can't you say the same when different people might compile or run the same C source code program in environments with different versions of some dependency libraries or operating system? there the solution is to write the program robustly enough that those differences don't cause serious problems, that is they don't make the program quietly misbehave. why can't the same thing work < 1769556414 80901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for vibecoding? < 1769556624 227930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in the former case you can try to track down the appropriate versions of libraries (and there are some projects that try really hard to make sure that exact builds can be recreated) < 1769556652 909211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with vibecoding, a set of prompts that works the first time has a pretty high chance of failing the second time, especially if any of them request corrections to the outputs of previous prompts < 1769557944 587566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: there are a couple of bug reports on the Lobste.rs thread on your vibecoding challenge (one says two of the files that need benchmarking aren't in the repo, one thinks the definition of "vibecoding" needs to be clarified) – you might want to respond to thsoe < 1769557953 433983 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-197.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement