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03:25:00 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174345&oldid=174341 * Dragoneater67 * (+389)
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03:35:07 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174346&oldid=174345 * PkmnQ * (+247)
03:45:33 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174347&oldid=174346 * Corbin * (+356) Surely it's not subjective depending on whether we are inside or outside the emulator.
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08:34:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oscarlo * New user account
08:38:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174348&oldid=174342 * Oscarlo * (+236)
08:44:49 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174349&oldid=174136 * I am islptng * (+122)
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09:25:29 <esolangs> [[Tina]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174350 * Oscarlo * (+18200) Created page with "'''Tina''' ('''T'''his '''i'''s '''n'''ot '''a'''ssembly) is an [[esoteric programming language]] with an assembly-like syntax and a deliberately overpowered ALU matrix instruction format. A Tina program is assembled into a linear list of instructions plus an initial memo
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09:29:56 <esolangs> [[Tina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174351&oldid=174350 * Oscarlo * (+30)
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10:04:37 <esolangs> [[Plea]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174352&oldid=173269 * UnavgAustralian * (+43)
10:14:15 <esolangs> [[HI9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174353&oldid=116704 * RikoMamaBala * (+880)
10:49:03 <esolangs> [[User:Uff20xd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174354&oldid=168174 * Uff20xd * (+46) Added my github :)
11:11:29 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174355&oldid=174347 * Ais523 * (+1043) thoughts
11:18:47 <esolangs> [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174356&oldid=128946 * Michael * (+6)
11:19:49 <esolangs> [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174357&oldid=174356 * Michael * (+7)
11:22:41 <esolangs> [[Spin4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174358&oldid=174357 * Michael * (+1)
11:28:09 <esolangs> [[Tina]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174359&oldid=174351 * Oscarlo * (-2) Fixed broken link
11:39:08 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174360&oldid=174349 * I am islptng * (-68)
12:02:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * New user account
12:13:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174361&oldid=174348 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+217)
12:14:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * uploaded "[[File:watchOS 7, 11 logo.jpg]]"
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12:20:34 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174363 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+1215) Created page with "== Basic information & introduction == Hi! My name is Narek aka watchOS 7, from Armenia. Ive been dealing with extreme outrage on Wikipedia centering around [[wikipedia:WP:SOCK|sockpuppetry]] regarding [[wikipedia:WP:VANDAL|vandalism]] on t
12:21:59 <int-e> ...sounds like a keeper
12:26:23 <esolangs> [[Folat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174364&oldid=172400 * Ytebbit * (-1) fixing link
12:28:04 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174365&oldid=174291 * None1 * (+103) /* Commands */
12:32:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174366 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+967) Created page with "== Portal == {{layout box|bg=#D4DEFF|title=Introduction to users| Welcome to my user talk page! In MediaWiki encyclopedias, a talk page or discussion page is a subpage of an article where people write about which part of the article shou
12:36:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174367&oldid=174366 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+229)
12:42:22 <ais523> this looks like the sort of account that may have few or no ontopic contributions
12:42:25 <ais523> so I'll have to see what happens
13:23:07 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174368&oldid=174355 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+429)
13:35:21 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174369&oldid=174368 * Blashyrkh * (+249)
13:38:59 <esolangs> [[Category talk:Zero-dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174370&oldid=174369 * Ais523 * (+411) these categories were created without discussion (because that rule didn't exist at the time) and it shows
13:39:04 <esolangs> [[Kiwiscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174371&oldid=174137 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-29) /* wenyan */ by the currently found definition of "zero dimensional" that ive gotten from asking the wiki, ill be removing that character.
14:01:27 <esolangs> [[LongFish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174372 * Restruct. * (+992) added the page
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14:43:03 <esolangs> [[LongFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174373&oldid=174372 * Restruct. * (+244)
14:48:37 <esolangs> [[LongFish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174374&oldid=174373 * Restruct. * (+336) added implementation
14:52:40 <esolangs> [[LongFish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174375&oldid=174374 * Restruct. * (+113) Z instruction
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15:01:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174376&oldid=174367 * Aadenboy * (+121) fix layout box formatting
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17:48:35 <korvo> ais523: User was born in 2016; they aren't old enough to be here. This is also why they keep getting suspended from social-media sites. They aren't a scammer; they're a child.
17:49:23 <ais523> korvo: I didn't expect them to be a scammer, just someone who had problems being ontopic
17:49:44 <ais523> this is also a very common reason to get banned from Wikipedia
17:50:02 <korvo> https://scratch.mit.edu/users/nareksan056/ is the same user. https://github.com/Orange7Official/ same user, has some basic slop. https://xcancel.com/watchOS7Alt and https://www.youtube.com/@OfficialWatchOS7Alt were useful link trees.
17:50:11 <ais523> the underlying reason why doesn't really matter from a moderation poin of view
17:50:38 <korvo> Oh, I'm not saying to leave them alone. I'm suggesting that they need to immediately be warned and suspended.
17:50:47 <ais523> I don't know whether the wiki has an age policy – it wouldn't be up to me to decide one
17:51:18 <ais523> (and it would be hard to enforce in any case)
17:52:01 <ais523> suspending someone who hasn't actually done anything on the site can be hard to justify, even if you suspect they will be trouble
17:52:08 <ais523> I can see a potential argument for deleting the user page, though
17:52:15 <korvo> Oh, I thought that the wiki was located somewhere that had a minimum age requirement for using the Web. If not, then whatever. I'm not a good babysitter though, and I'm definitely not the right person for talking to an Armenian child with heavy chatbot usage.
17:54:13 <ais523> the UK has been discussing an age limit for social media sites, and has a number of rules about them (to the extent that if Esolang did become considered to be a social media site we would probably have to shut the entire site down because the paperwork burden would be too high)
17:54:47 <ais523> but it doesn't currently have an age requirement for websites in general or Internet use in general
17:55:32 <korvo> Oh, in the UK? Well, that bites. There's piles of better jurisdictions. I suppose it's not urgent, but I'd hope that we eventually land somewhere friendlier to free speech.
17:56:40 <ais523> the UK's weird in that the libel rules are strict but the compensation for breaking them is much lower than in places like the US, so nuisance libel suits are rarer
17:57:27 <ais523> I remember a time when a major company was found to have libelled someone and the penalty was to require them to post an apology on their website homepage
17:57:58 <korvo> The rules are super-loose. Any hurt feelings can be grounds for a suit. Over here in the USA, we teach McLibel as a way of understanding the Isle's pathologies.
17:58:16 <ais523> which is actually a pretty big penalty for a major company (the marketing department would have fits), but is only useful for the victim if the misinformation was actually doing them harm
17:59:49 <ais523> bear in mind that your information may be out of date, there were some pretty major changes in 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_Act_2013
18:00:11 <korvo> Getting ready to tell Lobsters that vibecoders are incompetent. https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/bb8cbfd005a33f5dd262d1f20a63a693
18:03:50 <ais523> one problem I have is that because vibecoding platforms cost both money and environmental damage, it is hard for me to try them for myself to judge how effective they would be
18:03:58 <ais523> and thus it makes it difficult to criticise them fairly
18:04:19 <korvo> Meh. It's not just libel law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Bus_Campaign#%22Probably%22 comes to mind. Also the recent arrest of folks for, essentially, lese majeste.
18:04:59 <korvo> Sure. I happen to have done a bunch of bertological research as part of my security work, and so I happen to know that LLMs can't write code at a structural level. This is hard to communicate to non-practicioners.
18:05:30 <ais523> I've been thinking about my own reasons for disliking it recently
18:05:48 <ais523> I think one problem is that many programmers seem to have an attitude of "a program that passes all the tests is correct"
18:06:19 <ais523> I think this is wrong in practice some proportion of the time (I am unsure on the exact proportion but it probably isn't that low)
18:06:39 <ais523> and more likely to be wrong if the tests were written without an understanding of the program that is being tested
18:07:11 <ais523> (I believe that vibecoding a program to pass a given testsuite is substantially easier than vibecoding one which is actually correct or useful)
18:10:10 <ais523> korvo: the ASA's rules aren't legally binding (but most places that run adverts will refuse to run rules that breach them, in order to avoid ruining their reputation)
18:10:56 <ais523> generally speaking I think most people have a preference for advertisements being factually correct, as opposed to allowing advertisers to state anything they like
18:11:34 <korvo> ais523: Sure. And, by the Kochen-Specker theorem, the God of Anglicans doesn't exist. More generally, the Anglican God isn't compatible with quantum mechanics.
18:12:02 <korvo> I see a theocratic monarchy when I look across the pond.
18:13:26 <ais523> I'm very surprised at that – the US President has a lot more power in practice than the British King, and the Republican Party has to a large extent been taken over by people who apply Christian religious reasoning, whereas the Houses of Parliament have a much lower level of religious influence
18:13:58 <ais523> it's a bit ironic that the US legally has a separation of church and state, but has a very large level of church influence on politics in general
18:14:15 <ais523> whereas in the UK there are legal links between the church and state and yet they don't normally have a large effect at all
18:14:45 <korvo> Oh, yes, I see a Christofascist tyranny at home. But I can be nuanced, too; I can look at e.g. Alabama and see a theocracy, while looking at e.g. Oregon and seeing a democracy. The difference is pretty stark; Alabaman judges quote the KJV Bible when setting precedent.
18:14:49 <ais523> I'd much rather be in a de-jure (but not de-facto) theocratic monarchy than vice versa
18:15:21 <korvo> Why not both? https://prestonbyrne.com/2026/01/08/the-ofcom-files-part-v-block-harder/
18:16:23 <ais523> oh, the Online Safety Act – this is clearly a mess and badly designed, but was enacted based on populism (the things that it was intended to stop are real problems that you do want a law against – but the law itself is badly written and doesn't achieve its goals correctly)
18:18:29 <ais523> I do remember a dispute recently where a site claimed that it had blocked the UK, and Ofcom stated that if it had blocked the UK that would be sufficient to comply with the act, but it didn't believe that the block had actually happened; however, I don't know whether or not it's the same site as the one you posted or not
18:18:29 <korvo> Yes. And unlike in a direct democracy (e.g. Oregon), the people aren't empowered to directly change the law.
18:18:56 <ais523> Switzerland is a good example of a direct democracy IIRC
18:19:30 <korvo> It'd be that one, likely. SaSu. I'm honestly not surprised; the Commonwealth has collectively been *very* angry about the existence of SaSu while making MAID available. It's a fairly obvious hypocrisy driven by the inability of politicians to make everyday life acceptable for everyday people.
18:20:06 <ais523> in general I am not convinced direct democracy is necessarily a good idea, populations as a whole can often be manipulated into making decisions they'll regret later
18:20:34 <ais523> (a common example: ballot initiatives in US states are often misleadingly worded in the hope of tricking a proportion of people into voting against their own interests)
18:20:42 <korvo> Sure. Oregon started out ambiguous on gay marriage, then a vote made gay marriage illegal, then another vote made it explicitly legal.
18:20:54 <ais523> our most recent referendum, the Brexit referendum, was clearly a bad idea and did not work out well
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18:21:23 <korvo> Note that, unlike most states, Oregon allows voters to change their constitution *and* allows voters to refer nearly any motion whatsoever to the people. If something fails in legislature then it goes to the street and we sign petitions for it.
18:22:40 <korvo> Ah, yeah. That's the other difficulty in the UK: because so many of the laws stretch back to "nobles say so", there's no strong guardrails preventing stupid actions. Like, recently Idaho floated the idea of acquiring about half of Oregon, including a port city. This idea immediately faltered as soon as they were told that Idaho would have to *buy* it from Oregon.
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18:23:36 <korvo> Whereas in other parts of the world, we might have to put up with some Lord Potato, Marquis of Greater Idaho, insisting that they have some grant. Here instead we have armed religious fanatics who sieze government buildings, get into standoffs with the FBI, and sometimes get shot.
18:23:52 <ais523> fwiw I actually like having the nobles around and involved, they're mostly better at delaying stupid ideas than they are at creating them (and our laws only give them the power to delay – they cannot outright stop a law going through if the Commons is determined, nor increase the threshold above 50%, but they do have a constitutional ability to slow down the process)
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18:25:36 <ais523> I forget exactly how it works, but it's something like the Lords get to give feedback, the Commons often incorporates it if it's a good idea, if the Commons don't change the proposed law to the Lord's satisfaction they can halt the whole process and return to the starting point, but they can't do it twice on the same proposal so the Commons can force a law through by going through the whole process twice
18:26:06 <ais523> this is very good for stopping knee-jerk proposals because by the time it gets through the process a second time, the MPs might have calmed down a bit
18:27:47 <korvo> Bicamerality is a good idea, I think. It's kind of stupid that it's based on the idea that one House is very hard to get into without either inheriting money or being quite exploitative.
18:28:10 <ais523> we have endless debates about who actually *should* be in the Lords
18:28:31 <ais523> really, though, you just want a range of viewpoints and experiences and then the actual makeup doesn't hugely matter
18:28:57 <korvo> To use a snowclone: Elect people. Not too many. Mostly qualified.
18:29:00 <ais523> currently most Lords are nominated by outgoing prime ministers (although not all of them)
18:29:14 <ais523> which almost guarantees the mix of viewpoints, at least
18:30:13 <korvo> Right, we have *both* wings of Eton's dormitories represented~
18:32:03 <ais523> the Labour party is in power about half the time, they probably wouldn't appoint very many Etonites
18:32:33 <ais523> (the Conservatives would but they have pretty much destroyed their own credibility recently and are unlikely to be elected in the near future unless there's a major political shift)
18:34:37 <korvo> One could hope. Labour's turned into just another neoliberal party for me. I still remember the 2000s fairly well due to the incredible jingoism of the time, and now it looks like there's going to be another wave of...I don't know what to call it. Jingoism? Chauvinism? Thatcherism? It doesn't look like a leftist party at all.
18:35:43 <ais523> oh, the fully left parts are the Socialist Worker Party and to some extent the Green Party, but they aren't popular enough to be elected
18:35:50 <korvo> I have an essay on the backburner, "The Sword and The Shield", precisely about how pairs of neoliberal parties operate in developed democracies. Labour is a Shield party and primarily gathers sympathy by defending people from the Sword of Conservatives.
18:36:03 <ais523> Labour moved to the right to some extent recently to fill a gap in the centre after the Conservatives moved hard to the right
18:36:30 <korvo> Yep. I often vote Green. We also have a proper labor party, called the Working Families Party, but they usually endorse Democrats instead of also-running.
18:36:35 <ais523> the UK population is well to the right of you, though, so they are not likely to elect parties that have the same opinions of you
18:36:51 <ais523> * same opinions as you
18:37:21 <korvo> The Anglophone population in general is well to the right of me. 80% of them believe in God and 96% of them distrust me because I know better than that. I've made my peace with it, mostly by lowering my opinion of humanity.
18:39:02 <ais523> the thing that frustrates me most about politics is that parties that are driven by idealism usually have better policies than parties that are driven by practicality, but are less good at implementing their policies and so they often produce a worse result in practice (note: I'm excluding parties driven by populism in this because I don't have enough experience to know how it ends up, although I'm not hopeful)
18:39:23 <korvo> Sure. That's an instance of Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy.
18:39:59 <korvo> The people who cling to power most ferociously tend to overlap with the people who are genuinely emotionally invested in the well-being of the state.
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19:01:20 <korvo> Alrighty. I’m tired of hearing about vibecoding on Lobsters, so I’ve written up three of my side tasks for coding agents. Talk is cheap; show us the code. https://lobste.rs/s/igpevt/lobsters_vibecoding_challenge_winter
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20:03:41 <esolangs> [[Circle of Life]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174377&oldid=123520 * Shamrocky * (-1) /* Basic functions */ Fixed a small error with spelling
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21:57:42 <zzo38> I can critise one vibecoding that someone had shown to me as an example, writing a prompt to Claude to make a program in C to calculate the first 200 prime numbers. Since it is a simple example, it works, although I examined the code and the algorithm used is not as efficient as it should be. It is not something I use or intend to use, for several reasons.
22:02:04 <zzo38> (My objections include ais523's objections as well as Dijkstra's objections and others, and also the one that I had noticed myself that I had just mentioned)
22:37:23 <ais523> zzo38: what are Dijkstra's objections?
22:47:05 <zzo38> ais523: That it is not precise
22:47:27 <ais523> yes, that's a good concern
22:48:46 <ais523> actually, there is a followup problem from this: in vibecoded software, neither the prompts nor the resulting document in a programming language are a usable form in which to edit the resulting program
22:49:02 <ais523> the prompts are not reproducible and the source is not structured
22:53:27 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too
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23:26:48 <b_jonas> "not reproducible" => can't you say the same when different people might compile or run the same C source code program in environments with different versions of some dependency libraries or operating system? there the solution is to write the program robustly enough that those differences don't cause serious problems, that is they don't make the program quietly misbehave. why can't the same thing work
23:30:24 <ais523> at least in the former case you can try to track down the appropriate versions of libraries (and there are some projects that try really hard to make sure that exact builds can be recreated)
23:30:52 <ais523> with vibecoding, a set of prompts that works the first time has a pretty high chance of failing the second time, especially if any of them request corrections to the outputs of previous prompts
23:52:24 <ais523> korvo: there are a couple of bug reports on the Lobste.rs thread on your vibecoding challenge (one says two of the files that need benchmarking aren't in the repo, one thinks the definition of "vibecoding" needs to be clarified) – you might want to respond to thsoe
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