> 1769817879 801891 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shakespeare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174624&oldid=161686 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+2) 10some semicolons were forgotten
> 1769817908 587414 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Shakespeare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174625&oldid=174624 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+0) 10also, lt and gt were swapped
> 1769819123 624239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Deadfish Joust14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174626&oldid=64973 5* 03Treeplate 5* (+204) 10/* Strategy */ new section
< 1769819185 455525 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-197.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1769823333 786158 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :~ for strikethrough seems very recent, it isn't even in original Markdown, but the way people use ^H/^W in usenet posts may be relevant
> 1769823815 210811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174627&oldid=163723 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (+23) 10
> 1769823840 821638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174628&oldid=174627 5* 03Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 5* (-23) 10
< 1769825108 705506 :citrons!~citrons@alt.mondecitronne.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1769825500 490367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Drive-In Window14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174629&oldid=138008 5* 03TacoBeanBurrito 5* (+289) 10XKCD Random Number implementation
> 1769825593 146355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174630&oldid=172213 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+99) 10----
> 1769825654 566209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:XKCD Random Number14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174631&oldid=173224 5* 03TacoBeanBurrito 5* (+288) 10add Drive-In Window language
> 1769826471 539272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174632&oldid=172483 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+6) 10----
< 1769827969 350759 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:daa:8e35:d19b:ddf7 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1769828736 633753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnicodeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174633&oldid=174619 5* 03Qawtykit 5* (+506) 10Turned the commands list into a table for readability
< 1769829269 721189 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1769829282 58681 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1769830275 745345 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:daa:8e35:d19b:ddf7 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1769832491 576110 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UnicodeLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174634&oldid=174633 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+146) 10
> 1769836496 686286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MSS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174635 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6791) 10Created page with "MSS(pronounced as /ms/ where // is a rounded /e/) is designed by PSTF and his AI friend.  This language is an interpreted language, formally called 'Meaningful Object-oriented Simple Syntax', and is usually abbreviated as 'MossLang' (not 'MOSS', to distinguish it from
> 1769836540 406931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174636&oldid=174587 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+12) 10
< 1769838887 295822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1769841056 255817 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:I/D machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174637&oldid=174621 5* 03Ais523 5* (+493) 10it doesn't halt, but you can still put it into a loop
> 1769844840 61357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bbtos14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174638&oldid=160635 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+12) 10
> 1769845044 304956 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174639&oldid=173211 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+85) 10
> 1769845088 718324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174640&oldid=174639 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+6) 10Damn it! Why? I don't know.
< 1769845594 67169 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:60b8:ee29:59d3:b6b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1769845594 681384 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174641&oldid=170694 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+1777) 10
> 1769845610 129364 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174642&oldid=174641 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+2) 10
> 1769845658 978864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NameError without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine without a quine with a quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174643&oldid=174642 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (-1497) 10
> 1769845737 840382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07N-Type14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174644&oldid=174614 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+4) 10/* Example */
> 1769846008 419130 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Shove14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174645&oldid=174605 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10
> 1769846297 539704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174646&oldid=140853 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+20) 10
> 1769846658 163494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174647&oldid=133954 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+51) 10
> 1769846920 857333 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174648&oldid=174647 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+186) 10
> 1769847056 561239 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07The bluetooth device is ready to pair14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174649&oldid=125318 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+20) 10
> 1769849064 678351 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AMONGUSISABIGSUSSYBAKAHAHAHAHAHATHISLANGUAGEISREALLYCOOLPLEASEUSEITMYLIFEDEPENDSONITORELSEPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSPLSkahyghdfhm14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174650&oldid=163935 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+385) 10
> 1769849451 480890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:About14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174651&oldid=174537 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+497) 10i think i need a "wiki status" section for me to monitor
> 1769849658 175596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Qazwsxplm/frogs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174652 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+136) 10Moved Heavpoot's vandalism to this page
> 1769849705 598545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:About14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174653&oldid=174651 5* 03Corbin 5* (-497) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/174651|174651]] by [[Special:Contributions/Qazwsxplm|Qazwsxplm]] ([[User talk:Qazwsxplm|talk]]): Stop edit warring. If you want realtime monitoring then come idle in IRC and chat with us.
< 1769850517 340101 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1769850522 754281 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello!
< 1769850548 610518 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi.
< 1769850564 828845 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you today
< 1769850610 775812 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm about to go to bed. But I've had a good day. It was a week of proving vibecoders wrong.
< 1769850621 651034 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, nice!
> 1769850629 898111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:MEGA****S.jpg10]]"
< 1769850634 476687 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hope you have some good sleep
< 1769850636 777564 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right now I'm trying to kick off a build of statically-linked OCaml. It keeps dying on an obscure dependency.
> 1769850644 543921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IMAGERY14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174655&oldid=174511 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+95) 10
< 1769850704 99503 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://bpa.st/STWLG C'mon, build already.
< 1769850718 135574 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
> 1769850788 534106 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IMAGERY14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174656&oldid=174655 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+2) 10
< 1769850807 92109 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Faild to build Failed to build Failed to build...."
< 1769850848 547308 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm so tired of PPX. OCaml's one of those languages that has magic extended syntax, and the compiler has to have a matching plugin for each extension. I don't actually care about the extension in this case; it's ppx_inline_test, a developer-convenience library.
< 1769850889 889240 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Anyway, have a good day. I'm off.
< 1769850900 55916 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye!
> 1769851265 602423 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174657&oldid=151860 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+28) 10
> 1769851364 878244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174658&oldid=174548 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+1284) 10
> 1769851396 297883 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174659&oldid=174646 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+41) 10
< 1769852057 870368 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1769852902 737606 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174660&oldid=174640 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+63) 10
> 1769852939 395161 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174661&oldid=174660 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (+4) 10
< 1769853559 84230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think korvo's experiments in proving vibecoders wrong are going to end up with both sides claiming victory
< 1769853601 995540 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really, the problem here is that for decades the programming profession has avoided defining how low-quality a program can be before it becomes unacceptably bad
< 1769853611 346455 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1769853649 735031 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where are these experiments located?
< 1769853671 420805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I think the main link is https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/bb8cbfd005a33f5dd262d1f20a63a693
< 1769853681 286053 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thanks!
< 1769853868 407253 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a large amount of software graded on objective and measurable pass/fail conditions "does this make money yes/no"
< 1769853893 132124 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I sort-of like that one, although experience shows that you can still make money off software even if it doesn't work at all
< 1769853902 71826 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(pet peeve: Rice's theorem is irrelevant if you need to determine anything about program behavior under a single set of conditions in finite time)
< 1769853917 184444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there have been big government contracts to produce software, that the company makes a lot of money off even if the software is never successfully delivered
< 1769853956 845026 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, which gets us into questions about "will the liability environment change" which LLMs won't address until they can replace lawyers and politicians
< 1769853994 64331 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also the difficulty that "is this high-quality enough that people will pay for it?" is a question that the person considering buying software may want to answer, but be unable to answer until after they've already made the payment
< 1769854022 464816 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and situations like "Windows being bundled with new computers" which cause people to pay for software even if they don't want it
< 1769854059 996337 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately the race to the bottom
< 1769854086 604130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Satya Nadella says Windows 11 reached 1B users during Q2, growing over 45% YoY and at a faster rate than Windows 10 did" -- It's great to see a customer focused company do so well.
< 1769854120 891405 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, the main competitive pressure against the value-for-money of Windows becoming too low is companies threatening to sell computers running something else
< 1769854151 674834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect companies like Dell put effort and money into getting Linux working well primarily so that they can credibly threaten to switch and therefore get a better deal from Microsoft
< 1769854178 398309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also keep SteamOS in mind for that.
< 1769854235 104309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :SteamOS is an interesting example, actually – I don't primarily think of Valve as a hardware company but they do sell hardware
< 1769854290 955076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it's interesting that they chose an OS other than Windows – this is a statistical outlier among people selling computer hardware to consumers, especially given that the field (computer gaming) is still Windows-dominatd
< 1769854367 975195 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :trying to evaluate it in the frame of "most professional hardware with embedded user-facing computers is Windows or maybe QNX"
< 1769854377 697390 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :SteamOS is also hedging against MS locking out third party software stores.
< 1769854396 419739 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and why they picked systemd/Linux instead of Android
< 1769854520 493593 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Windows_usage_share -- for wahtever those numbers are worth, the Windows 10 share really took a dive this past month; it was almost even between Windows 10 and 11 at the start of the year.
< 1769854548 380797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, SteamOS is meant to run computer games, I think they would generally be easier to port to a traditional-style Linux distribution than Android
< 1769854568 654572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :does Wine even run on Android? not having functional Wine (or an equivalent) would be a dealbreaker for SteamOS I think
< 1769854583 253849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1769854602 999518 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Winlator lets you run Windows (x86_64) applications with Wine and Box86/Box64 on your Android device."
< 1769854658 54602 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :That... sounds like it should perform awfully :P
< 1769854668 746845 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1769854686 744669 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also I hadn't seen "systemd/Linux" before but I approve of the convention, systemd-ness is probably a more relevant userland factor than GNU-ness)
< 1769854713 24863 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION vaguely wonders whether Ubuntu is no longer GNU/Linux given that it no longer runs GNU coreutils – it does use glibc, though, is that sufficient?

< 1769854720 347189 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :in this hypothetical valve is shipping android as a device vendor, not as an app on random phones
< 1769854757 647212 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :switching to clang is probably the crucial point
< 1769854771 644240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I think the problem with an Android-based SteamOS is packaging, it would be extremely different from usual Android distributions and Valve would have to create something from scratch
< 1769854789 827004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas there are plenty of systemd-based distributions to learn from / tweak
< 1769854810 434455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and they already use a model that's appopriate for SteamOS
< 1769854847 114845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess I find it hard to see the clang vs. gcc distinction as relevant, because the compiler doesn't create a lasting derivative-work relationship onto the resulting executable
< 1769854853 304843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder how big of a factor ARM vs. x86_64 is for Valve here.
< 1769854886 594435 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice, it is fairly easy to distinguish between clang-compiled and gcc-compiled code at least on x86-64, but there's no conceptual reason why it has to be, and the choice of compiler doesn't have a huge end-user-facing effect
< 1769854936 252812 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: over the last few years aarch64 has become a really plausible x86-64 competitor, e.g. all the main OSes support both
< 1769854960 494210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a few years ago everyone was consolidating on x86-64, but now it's no longer consolidated
< 1769854978 549421 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure whether this is due to something ARM did right, or whether it's due to something that Intel/AMD did wrong
< 1769854987 342058 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Apple's actions are certainly relevant, but they must have had some reason to take them in the first place)
< 1769855020 707754 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could have been as simple as "ARM were willing to design a custom chip to Apple's specifications and neither Intel nor AMD were", I guess
< 1769855070 689339 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or these things run on natural plateaus and there hasn't been enough CPU innovation recently for any company to have an unsurmountable lead
< 1769855117 962651 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :systemd... ah sigh. (Apart from the file namespace propagation issue I ran into a few weeks ago, I also recently learned about sshd-vsock.socket which it enables by default; IIUC a hypervisor can inject credentials and then connect to it... so it's functionally a backdoor. Not exactly privilege escalation because the hypervisor can do anything it wants anyway. But it's still very stinky.)
< 1769855138 254871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering whether commercial Windows software is still primarily x86-64 or whether the companies are making AArch64 versions too
< 1769855162 705942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(sorry for the tangent)
< 1769855174 624217 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Microsoft seem to have gone to a lot of effort to make x86-64 and ARM software cross-compatible on the same computer, which implies to me that there's a reason they thought that effort was worthwhile
< 1769855192 703426 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(including cross-architecture dynamic linking of libraries)
< 1769855302 221101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, generally I think that for most purposes ARM vs. x86_64 makes little difference. But in Valve's particular niche (video games, including some older ones that aren't being maintained) x86_64 might still have an advantage.
< 1769855565 226589 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
< 1769855682 748248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? *
< 1769855684 171846 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
> 1769856819 628476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174662&oldid=174592 5* 03Qazwsxplm 5* (-4) 10
> 1769857517 129627 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 (AndrewBayly)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174663&oldid=145573 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+8) 10----
> 1769858038 734649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073 (islptng)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174664&oldid=145303 5* 03ColorfulGalaxy's CA discoveries 5* (+144) 10----
< 1769858228 843344 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1769858902 747579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1769861816 17879 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174665&oldid=174630 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-97) 10revert CA's changes(useless, there is no article for this Cellular automata
> 1769861826 474322 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174666&oldid=174665 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-2) 10
< 1769862727 991566 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmm
< 1769862766 956431 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i bbelive I may have found a solution to my problem
> 1769863075 466309 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174667&oldid=173858 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+110) 10/* Constructs */
< 1769863108 997004 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey guys, may I employ your help in naming a language?
< 1769863114 215858 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because ive completed one recently
> 1769863148 576020 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07614]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174668&oldid=164008 5* 0347 5* (+47) 10
< 1769863203 287565 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :$ lang-$(uuidgen) --> lang-3a635a5d-515e-4f27-84a1-d11662a5ae29
< 1769863218 836198 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what
< 1769863286 867536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's an easy way to name new languages ;-)
< 1769863298 851190 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but what is it?
< 1769863304 652483 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now im genuinely interested
< 1769863336 57706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUID
< 1769863337 945613 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: UUIDs are a way to create unique names for things that just need unique names, but don't need to be sensible or meaningful
< 1769863349 285103 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computers often use them to name things internally because they don't need meaningful names for things
< 1769863351 797147 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah ok, that makes sense
< 1769863400 906283 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :humans find them hard to read and remember, though, so if you're creating a name for humans to use it is better to use other techniques
< 1769863410 877548 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1769863693 367946 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(easy != good)
< 1769863710 934443 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(infact so)
< 1769863933 875710 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, so what if I name an esolang with a name that's a fractional number of bytes long (but an integer number of bits), so that all the bytes after the name become misaligned and end up being interpreted as half of one byte and half of the next
< 1769863970 859888 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats a great question
< 1769864137 43476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Just be careful not to start another war between the Lilliputians and the Blefuscudians. (What names, who can remember those?)
< 1769864313 174543 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been meaning to write an article about how little-endian is objectively better
< 1769864317 575874 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way quickly lies The Artist Formerly Known As Prince territory
< 1769864371 362704 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :after doing a lot of codegolf it became clear – Jelly has big-endian base conversion operations rather than little-endian and it frequently costs bytes, whereas basically the only time big-endian is better is for problems which are expressed in terms of how humans write numbers
< 1769864417 545233 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even then, our number format being big-endian is a historical accident – the original Arabic numerals have the most significant end at the left and least significant end at the right, but Arabic is a right-to-left language so that was a little-endian format)
< 1769864523 475778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason that little-endian is better is that it is consistent with "start-justification": if we are trying to match two things of different sizes we tend to match them from the start
< 1769864561 155337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. most languages that let you pointwise add the list [1, 2, 3] to [10, 20, 30, 40] will produce a result of [11, 22, 33, 40]
< 1769864575 131666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So Lilliput connects to "little" and "put". Is there something similar for Blefuscu?
< 1769864602 341903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Beyond B = big I suppose.
< 1769864613 963449 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if using big-endian, you have to end-justify instead to make things match up properly (this is, e.g., why spreadsheet programs right-justify numbers)
< 1769864615 292467 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :would love to see a decent review of number ordering across more than two or three human languages
< 1769864651 515616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :spoken number ordering seems to be mostly random, even between related languages
< 1769864700 908672 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are a bunch of special cases for medium-sized numbers but very large ones seem more consistent
< 1769864702 66129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( one-and-fifty )
< 1769864702 335201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. English "twenty-three" (big-endian), German "dreiundzwanzig" (little-endian)
< 1769864720 168278 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but then hundreds go in front again)
< 1769864733 369708 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :left-justified little-endian makes alphabetical ordering disagree with the usual ordering of R as an ordered field
< 1769864758 896051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess German is middle-endian, 101 is hunderteins
< 1769864767 738679 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but it remains consistent with the p-adic topology)
< 1769864807 915611 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :left-justified big-endian also has an alphabetical ordering that doesn't match numerical ordering, though
< 1769864834 671377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :English has the -teen suffix to mix things up a bit
< 1769864843 815188 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plenty of people have seen numbered files sorted in the order 10, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 11, 110, etc.
< 1769864877 620342 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this possibly is an indication that alphabetical ordering is wrong
< 1769864882 100803 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :<3 sort -hn
< 1769864898 921088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and now I remember that Chinese alphabetical ordering is multi-endian – the most significant component could be at the top, the left, or even the bottom depending on the character)
< 1769864918 985637 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd rather use it to support my p-adic superiority agenda
< 1769865135 586488 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`` ( echo 100; echo 10000; echo 1000; echo 1k ) | sort -h
< 1769865137 236203 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :100 \ 1000 \ 10000 \ 1k
< 1769865147 943656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...maybe I don't love -h after all
> 1769865717 715189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174669&oldid=174667 5* 0347 5* (-4) 10/* Open problem */ the "the" is unesesarry
> 1769866054 804218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174670&oldid=174669 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+77) 10/* Open problem */
< 1769866494 237043 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@197.185.181.46 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1769867949 495442 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, American dates are middle-endian, European dates are little-endian, ISO dates are big-endian
< 1769868079 775527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for me, today is 31/1/2026 (some Europeans would write 31.1.2026 instead), in the US it is 1/31/2026, the ISO date is 2026-01-31
> 1769868154 13710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174671&oldid=174599 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+363) 10
< 1769868348 297960 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :half the time in the US it's 1/31/26, just to maximize confusion possibilities...
< 1769868549 283869 :amby!~ambylastn@host-92-17-34-136.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1769869029 59390 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174672&oldid=174671 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+1) 10
> 1769869079 768938 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174673&oldid=174672 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+22) 10
> 1769869144 33185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174674&oldid=174673 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+53) 10
< 1769872897 843032 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:60b8:ee29:59d3:b6b QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1769873801 699177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabrain14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174675 5* 03LavaSalt402 5* (+2310) 10Made the AlphaLang page
> 1769873832 641491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174676&oldid=174675 5* 03LavaSalt402 5* (+0) 10
> 1769873869 534053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174677&oldid=174676 5* 03LavaSalt402 5* (+1) 10
> 1769873940 595121 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174678&oldid=174677 5* 03LavaSalt402 5* (+1) 10
> 1769873992 171232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Alphabrain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174679&oldid=174678 5* 03LavaSalt402 5* (+8) 10
< 1769874709 463766 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:60b8:ee29:59d3:b6b JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1769875956 47374 :vyv!~vyv@bras-base-nrbaon0452w-grc-32-76-65-8-247.dsl.bell.ca JOIN #esolangs vyv :vyv verver
> 1769876686 20564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NFOS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=174680 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2140) 10Created page with "'''NFOS''' is a language created by [[User:Yayimhere]], based on the idea of, if you have the current program, memory state, and new piece of data you want to add, there exists only one unique program, that when appended has the wanted effect. It is quite the "u
< 1769876700 191693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: if it was only so simple as American vs European. The website where I bought travel insurance used three different date formats in its set of forms.
< 1769876723 321202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see all three orders here in Europe, and multiple delimiters
< 1769876812 628693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it gets worse where some products just have two two-digit numbers printed on it, where it could mean either expiry or manufacturing date, and it could be any of %y.%m or %m.%y or %m.%d or %d.%m
< 1769876847 738307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the time they could just print %Y-%m-%d to make it unambiguous, but no
< 1769876937 224120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the UK, expiry dates are marked as "best before" if they contain a day-of-month field or "best before end" if they don't, but sometimes that's the only reliable way to tell them apart
> 1769876938 495129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07NFOS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174681&oldid=174680 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+154) 10/* Example */
< 1769877479 350973 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:edc6:114a:c442:c8ef JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1769877688 339268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cabra14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174682&oldid=122658 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+11) 10/* See also */ add NFOS
< 1769880458 119262 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Quoting myself from https://awful.systems/post/7079104 "This test is meant to shame and embarrass those who attempt it." There was never any real possibility of vibecoders doing anything else.
< 1769880488 420028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I don't think a failure at the task reflects badly on the human operating the tool, only on the tool itself
< 1769880529 806537 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: The willingness to choose *those* tools reflects poorly on the humans. I agree that, by design, the test will only really insult people's code rather than people, but *the test itself* shames vibecoders.
< 1769880560 580337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: so I think that some people will interpret even the results you've had so far as being evidence that vibecoding works
< 1769880595 466457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :To me, it's like walking into a hardware store, not going into the back aisles where the tools are, and instead trying to build a house using only the stocking-stuffer gifts in the $5 bin next to checkout.
< 1769880632 295854 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yes, people are not the brightest. That's not my fault. Vibecoders have been hearing for months, from a variety of viewpoints, for a variety of reasons, that their approach cannot possibly work. At this point, they are anti-inductive.
< 1769880655 420515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I think there is going to be a difference of opinion about "work" here
< 1769880662 281815 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, how the word is defined
< 1769880718 6224 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another way to think about it is that many code-commissioners standards are so low that vibecoding is actually an improvement over what they were doing beforehnad
< 1769880721 890027 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. And, by Rice's theorem, something like "correct Brainfuck interpreter" can't easily be proved to work. I've already started grading entries according to a fairly non-subjective rubric.
< 1769880753 41828 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sure. Just like how water waders or a pool noodle can help a child in a swimming pool. It doesn't follow that water waders are the right way to quickly swim through the water when using a mature trained stroke.
< 1769880820 440184 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also strongly dislike vibecoding, but am struggling with how to convince people that it isn't a good approach, because things that would be convincing to me aren't, I think, convincing to the general public
< 1769880846 500521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :from a non-programmer's point of view, what you're doing looks a lot like moving the goalposts
< 1769880880 180419 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. "the program has to work vaguely like it was working before" isn't obviously part of the spec, unless I missed it
< 1769880890 842804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so this makes your argument less convincing than it ideally would be
< 1769880932 921875 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the issue is, I suspect this is inherent in vibecoding platforms – they are good at complying with the letter of a specification whilst missing all the parts that should be implied
< 1769880962 104321 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the fundamental reason why they don't work is that specifying something precisely enough that any thing that matters the letter of the specification is correct is harder than just writing it yourself)
< 1769880994 222748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Throwing in keywords like "monoid" won't even help most people attempting this on their own ;-)
> 1769881027 801380 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174683&oldid=174674 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+1875) 10
< 1769881127 635914 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: That's okay; I intended for them to *not read* and throw everything into Claude. Claude knows what a monoid is~
< 1769881149 626873 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Does it?
< 1769881158 334706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean I'm sure it can recite the definition.
< 1769881169 386713 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It's been decades. There's no way to teach the public that programming is hard. This isn't the first iteration on no-code, low-code, managers-write-code, etc.
< 1769881179 483441 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sure it can also "solve" abstract algebra exercises using monoids.
> 1769881205 77533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:((()))(((())))=514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174684&oldid=174458 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+216) 10/* IO? */ new section
< 1769881211 862150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm less sure that it can fill in the brainfuck <--> concatenative <--> monoid world view that you're alluding to.
< 1769881215 680359 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: well, people who don't know what they're doing can now write programs that superficially appear to work
< 1769881232 323698 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is a qualitative difference, although I'm not sure whether the step is in the right direction or backwards
< 1769881258 327574 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: So, for Task 1 and 2, it *does* have to be vaguely like before. A Task 2 solution that doesn't resemble the original compiler can't score better than B tier. A Task 1 solution that doesn't handle every brainfuck program I throw at it will not place on the tier list, and that's already happened onces.
< 1769881285 415906 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I didn't investigate what task 3 even is.
< 1769881299 470964 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Nope, so far the two entries that successfully compiled were *hacky* and tried to insert their new compiler pass without integrating with the existing pass.
< 1769881317 647870 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking about it, optimizers must be some of the very hardest programs to test, especially if you're using traditional unit tests and double especially if the tests are written with no knowledge of the code
< 1769881332 811934 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't looked at Task 3 either. ADHD gives me a big advantage here; I have literally legitimately forgotten what Task 3 is. Haven't looked at it in over a year.
< 1769881348 172663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :let's not discuss it because reminding you might bias the results
< 1769881408 238246 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ISTR it's a data-processing task that eventually devolves into parallelism. That's about it though. Not sure how well I can do; the most cores on a single board in my lab is eight, maybe?
< 1769881442 237073 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I really wasn't asking for details.
< 1769881489 419973 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm wondering whether the LLMs for task 1 are "solving" it partially using plagiarism, there are lots of correct BF interpreters in the training data (and they probably don't work very like yours, which may be why the LLMs are rewriting it to work differently)
< 1769881510 58277 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I hope so!
< 1769881587 188578 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general I think LLMs give better results when they can plagiarise than when they haven't seen the task before
< 1769881674 952012 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If the task is monotone, sure. Many tasks will penalize near misses, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot#Failure_at_Dhahran is a case we study in the USA.
< 1769881776 322588 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At the end of the day, I'm noticing that the big influencers *aren't* trying this at all, or even responding to me. I know that simonw and stevekalabnik deliberately ignore me, mitsuhiko thinks I'm always arguing, and antirez thinks I'm irrelevant. I think that they're cowards who deserve chicken feathers.
< 1769881795 67801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what aspect of that case do you think is relevant here?
< 1769881836 476251 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The part where small amounts of deviance add up to a disaster.
< 1769881899 747566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that's even what happened – it was a large amount of deviance due to a float having grown large enough that its significant figures were no longer suffiicent to store the value needed
< 1769881903 281799 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The second entry for Task 1 is *faster* than my interpreter on mandel.b. Very impressive! But it also has a few coding errors related to RPython nuances. That entry fails catastrophically on LostKng.b, and also it takes over ten seconds to load; LostKng.b was out of distribution and Claude overfit on mandel.b.
< 1769881928 910284 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's the same sort of bug as going into the far distance in Minecraft, or a very large number of parallel universes in Super Mario 64
< 1769881943 940459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :values that are supposed to be similar are quantized to be very different from each other
< 1769882015 430928 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fair. But this is an HCI situation and I think we can talk about the union of human and computer. After all, on its own, Claude can't even prompt itself.
> 1769882114 505415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Monky14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=174685&oldid=174683 5* 03Menguinponky 5* (+233) 10
< 1769882327 830184 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess that I'm rolling my eyes at the idea that vibecoders should be taken seriously when they complain that we're mean to their way of doing things or when they cheer that we've moved from laughing to fighting. My position hasn't changed at all, it's just gotten more nuanced with data. https://lobste.rs/s/x0qrlm/agents_md_as_dark_signal#c_hkgzzg vs https://lobste.rs/s/igpevt/lobsters_vibecoding_challenge_winter#c_ewuxyj
< 1769882492 163404 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm mostly being harsh to mitsuhiko because he's an ethnonationalist and Rationalist. We don't allow him to have high horses.)
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< 1769886860 886517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: That's not your comment, but "one of 'em, as expected, is being a sneerable little shit" -- I don't think they are? They're being a good sport about it, sticking with the 100% vibe coding approach despite recognizing some of the flaws.
< 1769886952 373285 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: The whole "I don't follow your rules" attitude comes from a particular sort of irritating American man. I think that he's pushed to write that way by the bots, FWIW. I also read his prompts and he doesn't talk to the bot like how he talked to me. Anyway, I don't care whether people are rude; I make a note of it and consider whether to use it later.
< 1769886983 125655 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's a sort of auto-emasculating attitude; we generally understand such folks to be deeply insecure.
< 1769887028 908031 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the comment is "*It* doesn't follow the rules" (emphasis mine).
< 1769887045 736340 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/the/your/
< 1769887090 631895 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And IIRC you specifically didn't want people to help the LLM out very much? Maybe I'm overinterpreting your request.
< 1769887093 576748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs.

< 1769887172 695946 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah, it's just likely a cultural thing. Over here, we have the story of John Henry, an honest railroad worker who competed with heavy machinery to demonstrate that he could do the job as well as a machine. It's not a Luddite story though it's from the same era.
< 1769887205 80909 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I'm just saying that it's not that hard to drive in a spike correctly, so I don't see why OpenAI's RailSpikeDriverGPT product is having such a tough time.
< 1769887265 646964 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The vibecoders say that my career is over because the bot can do anything that I can do, at least as far as writing code. So, let's see them do it!
< 1769887330 360431 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hmm. Overfitting. I remember seeing a writeup about .kkrieger where they mentioned that as the deadline approached, it was still too big, so they used some code pruning tool they had (removing unreached code) on the main game engine rather than just the initialization code... and that resulted in one of the keys not working because apparently they didn't use it in the "profiling" run(s?). I...
< 1769887336 319597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :...wonder how to find it again...
< 1769887457 231338 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: Oh! I just saw who posted that on Awful. Sorry, please ignore them; BlueMonday1984 is very loud, incorrect, and rude. They also don't know how to code and have a lot of anger about it. The kids today are not well-read.
< 1769887618 944962 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've found https://web.archive.org/web/20100327192359/http://www.theprodukkt.com/faqmaking but it's not going into details.
< 1769887828 726680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Aha! https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/metaprogramming-for-madmen/
< 1769888089 375724 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(via https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD1wWY1YD-M )
< 1769888149 185931 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: Yeah no worries, I was already over it.
< 1769888235 950926 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's good. I'm *not* over them; I have an entire directory of receipts because they've said so much stupid and hateful shit. It's frustrating that an anti-grift community won't eject people who are consistently wrong and tarring their neighbors.
< 1769888239 440497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Disclaimer: I have not watched that video.)
< 1769888327 378359 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's a great read, thanks.
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< 1769888434 742112 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second comment on that video (by @kb1337) is worth reading btw
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< 1769902807 630589 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think small endian is mostly better than big endian, but both have some advantages and disadvantages in certain circumstances, and it isn't only because of writing numbers.
< 1769902903 250713 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :DER uses big endian, and the way that integers are encoded means that a set of nonnegative integers will be in the correct order, and also means that you can more easily check if a number is negative.