import operator import re  # ---------------- OPS ---------------- ops = {     "+=": operator.add,     "-=": operator.sub,     "*=": operator.mul,     "//=": operator.floordiv,     "%=": operator.mod, }  # ---------------- HELPERS ---------------
> 1767410556 787456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172103&oldid=172101 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (+1926) 10
> 1767410601 898532 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172104 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+4157) 10Created page with "'''Cable''' is a name of a programming language created by user [[User:RainbowDash]] in 2026. Where instructions are read from the left, and appended to the left. Instructions take the form of blocks. {{infobox proglang |name=Cable |author=[[user:RainbowDash|RainbowDa
> 1767410645 25530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RainbowDash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172105&oldid=170531 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (+52) 10Cable
> 1767410792 638068 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172106&oldid=172104 5* 03RainbowDash 5* (-21) 10Whatever
< 1767410811 340506 :RainbowDash!~RainbowDa@158.41.146.127 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] RainbowDash
< 1767411027 873700 :scoofy_!~scoofy@254C2305.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1767411169 242288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172107&oldid=172103 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (+69) 10
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> 1767411730 717987 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172108&oldid=172107 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (+44) 10
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> 1767415164 269117 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Athen blah blah blah 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Screenshot 2026-01-03 113718.png10]]": code for the instruction to run
> 1767422301 402629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172110&oldid=171903 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+595) 10/* computation without $# */
> 1767423069 938776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rvtl14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172111 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+576) 10Created page with "{{DISPLAYTITLE:rvtl}} '''rvtl''', aka '''Return of Very Tiny Language''' is a dialect of the VTL (Very Tiny Language), which is the dialect of [[BASIC]], created by Mizutani Jun. There's also 64-bit version '''rvtl64'''. Implemented in assembly language.  == Links == *[h
> 1767423123 379462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tpaefawzen14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172112&oldid=167464 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+75) 10
> 1767424395 285702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZuLanguage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172113&oldid=171106 5* 03Tpaefawzen 5* (+79) 10
< 1767428253 541762 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767428268 740358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fluid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172114&oldid=170181 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+5) 10/* A non BIX definition */
> 1767428355 93679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Fluid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172115&oldid=172114 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+98) 10/* A non BIX definition */
< 1767428718 339970 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:100:cdec:5967:bbcf JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1767428784 943284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172116&oldid=172095 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+261) 10/* Some Theories About Syntax User:A() */
> 1767428965 385509 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172117&oldid=171808 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+108) 10/* K combinator(named P) */
> 1767429366 909571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172118&oldid=172117 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+206) 10/* Examples */
> 1767430041 567031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172119&oldid=172116 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+259) 10/* Some Theories About Syntax User:A() */
> 1767430070 498348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172120&oldid=172118 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* 1 */
> 1767430175 705844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RightSlash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172121&oldid=120335 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-1152) 10Will make another version of it later
< 1767431420 387304 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:100:cdec:5967:bbcf QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767432695 573383 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767432801 691268 :SGautam!uid286066@id-286066.ilkley.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs SGautam :Siddharth Gautam
< 1767438766 794758 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1767440636 681341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172122&oldid=172091 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+1350) 10
> 1767440995 585388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Later You Will See Me14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172123 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1523) 10Created page with "'''Later You Will See Me''' or LYWSM, is more of an art project then an esolang, was created by [[User:Yayimhere]], initially thought up in 2025 but only completed in 2026. It is, basically, just an iterative process of a function, defined as a 
< 1767442775 206501 :scoofy_!~scoofy@254C2305.nat.pool.telekom.hu NICK :scoofy
< 1767442777 194965 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2305.nat.pool.telekom.hu CHGHOST ~scoofy :user/scoofy
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< 1767447420 898518 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
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< 1767447762 728813 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1767448273 355923 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1767448433 350195 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:4037:fa6b:fb26:a96b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1767448724 35831 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172124&oldid=172122 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+33) 10/* A+B Problem */
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> 1767449200 163144 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172125&oldid=171934 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+31) 10/* esolangs */
> 1767449265 583027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MalbolgeFUCK14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172126 5* 03Athen blah blah blah 5* (+4500) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=MalbolgeFUCK |paradigms=imperative, cryptographic, self-modifying |author=[[User:Athen blah blah blah]] |year=[[:Category:2026|2026]] |memsys=mutable array/register |dimensions=one-dimensional |class=Bounded-storage machine }} 
> 1767449311 133852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MalbolgeFUCK14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172127&oldid=172126 5* 03Athen blah blah blah 5* (+58) 10
> 1767449675 610373 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172128&oldid=172124 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+1174) 10/* 99 bottles of beer, with the grammar errors */
> 1767451079 852180 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Morlus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172129&oldid=120947 5* 03Morlus 5* (+1) 10
> 1767451347 81022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172130&oldid=172073 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+369) 10
> 1767451358 341962 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172131&oldid=172130 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+4) 10/* Quine */
> 1767451417 546285 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172132&oldid=172131 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+79) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767451495 402249 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172133&oldid=172132 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+75) 10/* Instructions */
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> 1767452478 332001 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172134&oldid=172133 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+286) 10
< 1767452551 312490 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767453531 11646 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Wizzcake14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172135&oldid=168663 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10added {{stub}}, majorly underspecified. specifically, the syntax isnt given at all.
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< 1767455583 813205 :shachaf!~shachaf@user/shachaf PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? member
< 1767455588 122855 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
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> 1767456090 463010 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172136&oldid=172128 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+100) 10
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> 1767456892 661136 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172137&oldid=172081 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-647) 10
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> 1767458072 109267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172138&oldid=172119 5* 03A() 5* (+208) 10
> 1767458174 9544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172139&oldid=172138 5* 03A() 5* (+41) 10/* Some Theories About Syntax User:A() */
> 1767458194 552609 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172140&oldid=172139 5* 03A() 5* (-1) 10
> 1767458359 609617 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172141&oldid=172140 5* 03A() 5* (+146) 10/* Dissection */
> 1767459970 868118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172142&oldid=172120 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10/* 1 */
> 1767460171 517200 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172143&oldid=172141 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+307) 10/* Dissection */
> 1767461045 386149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172144 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1141) 10Created page with "'''Countable''' is an esolang based on [[Iterate]].  == Memory == Countable consists of a set of accumulators, which can be created, incremented, and read from, with no additional interactions. Countable also has a single register which can hold a singl
> 1767461068 154737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172145&oldid=172144 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+18) 10
> 1767461086 514961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172146&oldid=171596 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+28) 10
> 1767461105 129374 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172147&oldid=172048 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10/* just some drafts */
> 1767461493 418074 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHOOSE14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172148 5* 03A() 5* (+1668) 10Created page with "== Intro ==   Alright, imagine an alien computer. Everyone is really excited to use it, but the only thing it can do is search for programs that matches with an output, and also those programs also search for programs that do the exact same thing. Is it possible to even do a
> 1767461567 325680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHOOSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172149&oldid=172148 5* 03A() 5* (+3) 10
< 1767461575 296781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1767461600 723185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Free2Edit logo.png10]]"
< 1767461711 410556 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, language extension idea: allow Piet to interpret animated GIFs, when the frame changes, the program changes under the IP and it continues with the new program
> 1767461741 656854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172151&oldid=172098 5* 03A() 5* (+12) 10
> 1767461742 273680 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Free2Edit logo(small).png10]]"
< 1767461746 630686 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this seems like a sensible and backwards-compatible way to allow Piet programs to take time-the-program-has-been-running as an input
< 1767461851 244260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now I'm envisioning an entire language for which the program is an image, but it just uses the current view on the computer's monitor as the program, and doing things like typing or moving the mouse cursor or opening windows is how you give input to the program
< 1767461857 877805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(would even allow livecoding using a paint program)
< 1767461909 749662 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the easy/cop-out way to do it would involve an A Pear Tree-ish way for the language to actually find the part of the screen it's meant to be executing, but it's perhaps more interesting if any part of the screen can (subtly) influence any other
> 1767462114 883047 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Free2Edit (smaller to fit 200px).png10]]"
< 1767462356 388799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"uses the current view on the computer's monitor as the program, and doing things like typing or moving the mouse cursor or opening windows is how you give input to the program" this is kind of how some old BASIC microcomputers like the Commodore 64 work. Not quite just reading the *program* from the monitor, but when you press enter to input either a command for BASIC or a reply to an INPUT statement 
< 1767462362 692609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then the line (or two joined lines) on the screen under the cursor are taken as that input, and you can edit any part of the screen on the text before you choose which line you enter. That's how you edit an existing program: you list part of the program, move the cursor to edit an existing line, then press enter to change the line in the program. This is preserved even today because in the Microsoft VBA 
< 1767462368 701552 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :UI, the Immediate window, which also serves as a debug console, works halfway this way. You can edit any line and press enter to accept it; and if the program writes text to the debug console then it's inserted where the cursor is rather at the end of the window, even if it's in the middle of a line, which is very annoying. The difference is that in the VBA Immediate window you insert text by default, 
< 1767462374 708592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :including inserting lines, rather than overwrite text in a fixed rectangular array of characters.
> 1767462377 359781 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172154&oldid=170088 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+298) 10/* Collaboration */
> 1767462494 633019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CHOOSE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172155&oldid=172149 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Syntax */
< 1767462594 984303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly5BhGOt2vE by Linus Åkesson the Commodore works even more this way: it's not the built-in behavior of BASIC, but a program written by Linus that deliberately reading characters from video memory live as Linus edits them, with the program running from an interrupt while the built-in editor that lets him overwrite text on the screen is running outside of the 
< 1767462600 992023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :interrupt.
> 1767462848 861255 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172156&oldid=172136 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+274) 10
< 1767463724 296347 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :enhancement to this idea: the program stores all internal state via self-modification, so you can see and directly modify what it's thinking
< 1767463756 653998 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :presumably some parts of the screen belong to the program and it can write to them, and other parts belong to the user and are const volatile from the program's point of view
< 1767463942 678136 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't Befunge originally work kind of similar to this? note quite because it also has a data stack and I think you can access it deep so it's Turing-complete with just the stack, but I think originally the 2-d code space was just one screenful and the self-modify code put instruction would show up on screen. maybe not though.
< 1767464071 560385 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seems like a reasonable theory based on the size of the playfield, but I wasn't there at the time
< 1767464285 321320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I mean befunge also has print commands so it can't really work
< 1767464315 668628 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless you're supposed to run it on two monitors, like an interactive debugger with graphics on one monitor and the debugger with code on another monitor
< 1767464502 472510 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have virtual desktops nowadays which probably makes all these things simpler
< 1767464507 99236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I guess you could do I/O to a file
< 1767464624 429649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, and even back then you could just have two screen buffers and switch between them, at least in some graphics modes that don't require too much memory, so you could have the program in one and the print output on another and have the interpreter switch between them on a user keystroke
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< 1767467807 302308 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
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> 1767468546 709296 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hailstone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172157&oldid=172080 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+18) 10fix unchanged assignment operators
> 1767468559 346642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172158&oldid=172061 5* 03Melondae18 5* (+221) 10hii! <3
> 1767468663 31983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0799 bottles of beer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172159&oldid=165781 5* 03Melondae18 5* (+425) 10Added AsciiDots implementation
< 1767468945 894356 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767468995 295396 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1767469024 480477 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1767469497 539376 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.10.169 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1767472306 200569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172160&oldid=172137 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+50) 10
> 1767473313 91079 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172161&oldid=172160 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+37) 10/* status */
> 1767473945 610288 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hailstone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172162&oldid=172157 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+1425) 10
> 1767474488 813240 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hailstone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172163&oldid=172162 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+306) 10/* Implementation */ just remembered tail call optimization exists
< 1767475326 213717 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767476034 861065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172164&oldid=172143 5* 03A() 5* (+510) 10
> 1767476829 984850 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hailstone14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172165&oldid=172163 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+318) 10
> 1767476972 919125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FJ14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172166&oldid=139241 5* 03Kaveh Yousefi 5* (+182) 10Added a hyperlink to my implementation of the FJ programming language on GitHub and supplemented the page category tag Implemented.
< 1767477778 530738 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767478844 380099 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's at least one brainfuck interpreter (called "bfvga" as I recall?) where the tape is 64000 byte-sized cells directly mapped to the VGA 320x200 display mode's video RAM.
< 1767478935 529121 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060 perhaps.
< 1767478954 551533 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea was that you'd write demosceney graphical effects by manipulating the tape contents.
< 1767479013 853369 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(No mechanism for user input to modify it while running, though.)
< 1767479068 962471 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(And the program itself isn't on the tape, it's not that kind of self-modifying brainfuck.)
< 1767479887 766113 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767480528 940574 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767481019 396879 :Everything!~Everythin@46.96.10.169 QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1767481059 373274 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my guess is that it'd be too slow, although maybe with enough optimisation it could be viable
< 1767481249 825274 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767482332 274671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172167&oldid=172072 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10/* K */
> 1767482370 149811 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172168&oldid=171843 5* 03Buckets 5* (+33) 10
> 1767482386 485760 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kses14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172169 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1331) 10Created page with "Kses is an Esoteric programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] In 2026, Created to Be a pure-Table Esolang.   {| class="wikitable" |- ! Pseudo-Commands !! Instructions |- |  {| | style="background:#RR----;width
< 1767483745 303239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess what could work is an emulated 6502 or similar CPU, with a kilobyte or two of RAM all mapped to a text video console in such a way that each character cell shows one byte in a font where all 0x100 possible values are displayed differently, except that the last dozen or so characters aren't mapped to memory but to the CPU registers instead, so that all the state of the machine shows up on the 
< 1767483751 311869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :screen.
< 1767483831 257565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a 6502 hardly has any registers anywy
< 1767483837 348489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is it just A, X, Y, P?
< 1767483908 456262 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: A, X, Y, stack pointer, two bytes of instruction pointer, plus like three to six bytes of unnamed registers that matter only within an instruction
< 1767483919 991895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and an almost byte of flags
< 1767483926 245606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :P is the almost byte of flags
< 1767483930 575482 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I forgot the stack and instruction pointers, though
< 1767483941 604800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why is it called P?
< 1767483966 802616 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :something like "processor status word" but I'm not sure that's the actual name, it's that sort of name though
< 1767483973 947550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1767483989 941341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd have called it F or C
< 1767483997 569062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for flags or condition code
< 1767484033 471456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're right though, apparently the mnemonic for the instructions that push and pop the flags end in P
< 1767484042 175586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's FLAGS, or F for short on x86 (with CC used as a generic name for tests on the flag)
< 1767484056 584014 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. Jcc is the generic name for jz, ja, jb, etc.
< 1767484203 893227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you need at least four bytes of hidden processor status, because you need three bytes just to store the current instruction, and there is a read-modify-store increment two-byte absolute address instructions where you have to remember both the address and the value between the read and write
< 1767484435 383135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so let's go with 2 bytes of instruction pointer, 5 bytes for PAXYS, and 5 bytes of internal state that is forgotten between instructions to leave one more byte of state to comfortably remember which phase of an instruction we are at. that's 12 bytes, either at the end of the last row so the accessible memory is that much shorter, or in an extra row of the screen.
< 1767484565 839149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could map some more bytes to non-CPU hardware registers, such as keyboard/joystick input, casette/tape or serial port input/output, sound chip.
< 1767484602 485261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I mean these would be displayed on the screen the same way as normal RAM bytes are
< 1767484617 289946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC, 6502 non-CPU hardware registers are normally implemented in an MSR sort of way where they have custom behaviour on reading and custom behaviour on writing that might not match each other
< 1767484637 592289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and write-only registers are sometimes aliased with ROM
< 1767484744 159555 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, these hardware register would have to work differently, so that reading has no effect and they're read often to be shown on screen, and the written values are remembered and shown on screen. 
< 1767484754 19312 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you don't need to store the entire instruction, you can load the address bytes directly into an address latch and then overwrite them for indirect modes
< 1767484791 34070 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there could be some ROM that's not shown on screen 
< 1767484836 59165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: ok, but that'd still be part of the machine state, just not necessarily physically in the CPU
< 1767484884 502857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: but I'm pretty sure the CPU has to store at least the lower byte of the address just so it can increment that lower byte for an indirect jump instruction
< 1767484897 459697 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1767484970 134996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and there are normal indirect instructions too, which read a two-byte address from the zero page, 
< 1767485041 506910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still going with 5 hidden bytes, 3 of which usually store the instruction but can be overwritten during the instruction in some cases
< 1767485061 449817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or like 4 plus a partial byte at least
> 1767485119 612526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172170&oldid=172154 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+307) 10/* Would you take a look? */ reply
< 1767485202 255642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe that partial byte is shown as the border color of the screen
> 1767485944 640705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Plea14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172171&oldid=172108 5* 03UnavgAustralian 5* (+0) 10
> 1767486689 37065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172172&oldid=172164 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+803) 10
> 1767488873 542287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172173&oldid=172134 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+179) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767488904 513456 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172174&oldid=172173 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+41) 10/* Magicword */
> 1767488970 824416 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172175&oldid=172174 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-5) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */
> 1767489053 670348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172176&oldid=172175 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+381) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767489145 882028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172177&oldid=172176 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-23) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767489358 100417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172178&oldid=172177 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+220) 10
> 1767489436 656839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172179&oldid=172178 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+48) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */
> 1767489689 437786 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172180&oldid=172179 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+212) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767489725 610420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172181&oldid=172180 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+152) 10/* Annotation */
> 1767490039 764539 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172182&oldid=172145 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-127) 10refine this a little bit. not where I want to right now but it's better
< 1767490577 519362 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1767491231 950855 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172183&oldid=172181 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+156) 10/* Annotation */
> 1767491256 458432 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172184&oldid=172183 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+9) 10/* Annotation */
> 1767491266 663808 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172185&oldid=172184 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1) 10/* Miscellaneous Notes */
> 1767491393 779337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172186&oldid=172185 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-4) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767491549 960454 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172187&oldid=172186 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+48) 10/* Instructions */
> 1767491586 461340 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172188&oldid=172187 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+9) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */
< 1767491812 938098 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767491816 761248 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Client Quit
> 1767491834 278061 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172189&oldid=172188 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+112) 10
> 1767491921 222347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172190&oldid=172189 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+23) 10
> 1767492109 837791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172191&oldid=172190 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+110) 10
> 1767492160 743108 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172192&oldid=172191 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+158) 10
> 1767492344 333829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172193&oldid=172192 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+109) 10
> 1767492371 261719 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07123456789014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172194&oldid=171725 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+53) 10
> 1767492395 848749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07WUTWWITIPMPAW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172195&oldid=171461 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+53) 10
> 1767492469 808845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yoyolin040914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172196&oldid=172067 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+26) 10/* Done */
< 1767492969 42675 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:a87c:1eb1:3867:2b69 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1767493678 415787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172197&oldid=172156 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+90) 10
< 1767495904 864790 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767495940 493472 :op_4!~tslil@user/op-4/x-9116473 JOIN #esolangs op_4 :op_4
> 1767497217 19573 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172198&oldid=172197 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+227) 10
< 1767498048 820703 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C22F9.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1767503388 68470 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172199&oldid=172074 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+99) 10Shortest expression for Church numeral 4
> 1767507819 266324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MalbolgeFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172200&oldid=172127 5* 03Athen blah blah blah 5* (+299) 10
< 1767508114 342773 :impomatic!~impomatic@95.145.247.56 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1767513549 978583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172201&oldid=172170 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+123) 10/* Would you take a look? */
> 1767513669 293468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172202&oldid=172172 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+200) 10/* aadenboy's part in this */
> 1767514016 485633 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172203&oldid=172202 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+728) 10/* Information I've gathered */
< 1767514550 922134 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767519402 62186 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1767520625 730085 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767521884 483806 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767522595 844612 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/eLambda14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172204 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+714) 10made the page. Very sloppy right now, still experimenting with it. Will get better as time passes.
< 1767523843 513406 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767524113 123810 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767524700 454788 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1767524767 824284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172205&oldid=172203 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+660) 10/* aadenboy's part in this */
> 1767524867 190952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172206&oldid=172142 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+47) 10/* Optimized truth machine */
> 1767525139 70096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172207&oldid=172205 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+204) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1767526860 279431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Michael14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172208&oldid=123593 5* 03Michael 5* (+10) 10
< 1767528292 492374 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767528312 967039 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1767528859 771665 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767529296 77070 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767529598 486688 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172209&oldid=172193 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+320) 10
> 1767530206 404272 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Food14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172210&oldid=172065 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-2) 10
> 1767530738 108425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/eLambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172211&oldid=172204 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+200) 10
> 1767530939 599564 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172212&oldid=170550 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-55) 10/* Syntax */
> 1767531192 793840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CCCC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172213&oldid=172212 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+38) 10/* Semantics */
< 1767532790 918804 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1767533311 853132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/eLambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172214&oldid=172211 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-79) 10/* Examples */
> 1767533394 567983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kangaroo Jacques 5*  10New user account
> 1767534040 347833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172215&oldid=172158 5* 03Kangaroo Jacques 5* (+288) 10
< 1767534433 340559 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1767535438 841665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Print("Hello, World!")14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172216&oldid=170635 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+86) 10
> 1767535772 879185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere/eLambda14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172217&oldid=172214 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-357) 10/* Examples */
> 1767536624 975160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07IavaScriptvm14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172218 5* 03Kangaroo Jacques 5* (+7115) 10My little esolang
< 1767536648 849978 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767537160 605096 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172219&oldid=172167 5* 03Kangaroo Jacques 5* (+19) 10Added IavaScriptvm to the list
< 1767538159 470900 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767538482 291757 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1767538752 765386 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767541086 370858 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767541706 961081 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767541750 107336 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PlainCore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172220&oldid=172209 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+39) 10/* Magicword */
> 1767546257 723252 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172221&oldid=172078 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+11) 10Fixed type error in backtick number guessing game example.
> 1767546296 444129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172222&oldid=172221 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+9) 10fixed wording
> 1767546391 736906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Free2Edit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172223&oldid=172198 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+118) 10
< 1767546787 955335 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1767548320 659616 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767549437 531788 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767549827 348569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172224&oldid=172207 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+40) 10/* aadenboy's part in this */ formatting
< 1767550013 868570 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2100-2E10-545D-F23A-70BD-B668-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
> 1767551139 368338 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172225&oldid=172224 5* 03A() 5* (+80) 10
< 1767553679 550020 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767554611 340652 :impomatic!~impomatic@95.145.247.56 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1767555140 687404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07U14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172226&oldid=137417 5* 03Hammy 5* (+45) 10Removed redirect to [[U (PrySigneToFry)]]
> 1767555274 416026 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:&014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172227 5* 03&0 5* (+159) 10Created page with "I'm and. I'm mostly an artist that happens to code. We like to think where pretty good at it. You can find all of our ramblings at https://www.sheeeeeeeep.art/"
< 1767555370 513509 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767555436 882401 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1767555449 333114 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1767556936 859895 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C22F9.nat.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767557330 676149 :Everything!~Everythin@217.147.163.184 JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1767558320 310520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DOESNT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172228 5* 03&0 5* (+4507) 10Created page with "DOESNT is an esolang created by [[User:&0]] at the very start of 2026. It's a single [[string]], deterministic, [[rewriting]] system. Unlike conventional rewriting systems, rules in DOESNT list what prefixes are left unmatched. It's creation was inspired by the prompt for Lan
> 1767558341 553141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:&014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172229&oldid=172227 5* 03&0 5* (+32) 10
> 1767558440 930397 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172230&oldid=172219 5* 03&0 5* (+13) 10Add DOESNT
> 1767558961 775006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Bring to another14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172231&oldid=172225 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+48) 10/* aadenboy's part in this */
> 1767563139 409888 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ColdBrew 5*  10New user account
> 1767563498 599530 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172232&oldid=172215 5* 03ColdBrew 5* (+223) 10/* Introductions */
> 1767563563 251889 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172233&oldid=172232 5* 03ColdBrew 5* (+85) 10/* Introductions */
> 1767564096 497190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172234 5* 03A() 5* (+1021) 10Created page with "[[PMPL|Polish Math Programming Language]] is called that because it uses [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation| Polish notation] (also PNPL was taken) [[User: A()]] brought this into existence. == Commands == Here is a list of commands [[PMPL|Polish Math Programming L
> 1767564400 33911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172235&oldid=172234 5* 03A() 5* (+57) 10/* Programs */
< 1767565645 756710 :Festive_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
< 1767567026 393545 :Everything!~Everythin@217.147.163.184 QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1767567584 967087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172236&oldid=172230 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10/* E */
< 1767567598 871223 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:1dc8:ec10:292d:9ae8 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767567629 950635 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172237&oldid=172168 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10
> 1767567658 476931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Eralin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172238 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1240) 10Created page with "Eralin is an Esoteric programming language Created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | < || Goto The last < that the IP Has met. |- |  || Subtract 1 to the Top value But then it With toggle To Adding 1 then Toggling Back 
> 1767569343 798936 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172239&oldid=172235 5* 03A() 5* (+106) 10
> 1767570114 805312 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172240&oldid=172239 5* 03A() 5* (+82) 10
> 1767570162 634798 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172241&oldid=172240 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10/* Fizzbuzz */
> 1767570398 361362 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172242&oldid=172241 5* 03A() 5* (+66) 10/* FizzBuzz */
> 1767573484 178929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07MikuLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172243&oldid=172012 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+1426) 10added interpreter
> 1767573641 488040 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Frendoly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172244&oldid=170814 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+104) 10
> 1767573897 28058 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MicroMiku14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172245 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+185) 10Created page with "This article was made to find a way to get it working for micropython, but since i made a interpreter for [[MikuLang]] now this article is useless, im wondering if i can get it removed?"
> 1767573909 993107 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MicroMiku14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172246&oldid=172245 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+88) 10
> 1767574271 976620 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172247&oldid=172242 5* 03A() 5* (+89) 10
> 1767575069 706585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172248&oldid=172247 5* 03A() 5* (+1) 10/* loop */
> 1767575263 333409 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172249&oldid=172248 5* 03A() 5* (+16) 10/* FizzBuzz */
> 1767575842 415979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FizzBuzz14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172250&oldid=165431 5* 03A() 5* (+244) 10
> 1767577657 428488 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172251&oldid=172151 5* 03A() 5* (+10) 10
> 1767577675 379341 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172252&oldid=172251 5* 03A() 5* (-122) 10
> 1767580028 429253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172253&oldid=172249 5* 03A() 5* (+143) 10
< 1767580046 419273 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1767580092 430710 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172254&oldid=172253 5* 03A() 5* (+14) 10
> 1767583396 691289 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DOESNT14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172255&oldid=172228 5* 03&0 5* (+1) 10fix typo
< 1767584386 652722 :sprocket!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1767584408 183540 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1767584614 827031 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2100-2E10-545D-F23A-70BD-B668-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1767584779 913085 :chloetax1!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1767584900 355088 :Lymee!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
< 1767584934 489443 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1767585039 437472 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767585039 470299 :molson!~molson@2605-4A80-2100-2E10-545D-F23A-70BD-B668-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767585039 498261 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767585039 805848 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767585040 506042 :chloetax1!~chloe@user/chloetax NICK :chloetax
< 1767585042 912708 :simcop2387_!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 NICK :simcop2387
< 1767585983 813993 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1767586092 544934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172256&oldid=170825 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+476) 10
< 1767586147 327931 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN #esolangs lambdabot :Lambda_Robots:_100%_Loyal
< 1767587838 750196 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :What data structure should be used for converting between 16-bit character codes and 32-bit character codes in both directions? (The mapping will be defined in an external file and will need to be read and made into the data structure used internally)
> 1767590805 399184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07F,u,c,k.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172257&oldid=164691 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+382) 10
< 1767590909 872349 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1767598151 472229 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767600322 694835 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad7d:11db:9b25:5b85 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767601414 803743 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:ad7d:11db:9b25:5b85 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1767604754 74246 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MicroMiku14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172258&oldid=172246 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (+370) 10I think you can ask an admin to delete this page
> 1767607557 730083 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitflipper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172259&oldid=122888 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-29) 10/* Interpreters */ It is infact NOT Tc, because it cannot access unbounded memory
< 1767608970 311481 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1767608995 791642 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1767609036 346202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172260&oldid=169829 5* 03JIT 5* (+323) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */ new section
> 1767609384 423520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07.chat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172261&oldid=169578 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Commands */
> 1767609648 643218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:11001000010011011001014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172262 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+216) 10Created page with "The proof seems self referential, because the formula for each variable holds itself, its recursive --~~~~"
> 1767610109 883156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172263 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+212) 10Created page with "The proof seems incorrect, because of $, which allows reading of other characters. --~~~~"
> 1767610117 921428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172264 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+905) 10Created page with "'''Standard Test Paper''' is an esolang by [[User:yoyolin0409]]. ==Papermaking== Select some high-quality Unicode characters. These characters include "", "", "", "", "", and "".  Weave the "" symbols into a long line consisting of 21 "" symbols.  Weave t
> 1767610149 266596 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yoyolin040914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172265&oldid=172196 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+25) 10
> 1767610334 614254 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172266&oldid=172264 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+9) 10this seems to just be like, a unicode shape? most definitely not an gosling, or atleast not one that is described, so I added {{stub}}. yoyolin, care to explain how this is an esolang?
< 1767610382 223997 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1767610402 339965 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1767610408 571489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172267&oldid=172266 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+88) 10
< 1767610453 467684 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767610513 452970 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere2(school)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172268&oldid=168452 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+215) 10/* Reply to Standard Test Paper */ new section
> 1767610619 326244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere2(school)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172269&oldid=172268 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+238) 10/* Reply to Standard Test Paper */
> 1767610684 637601 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere2(school)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172270&oldid=145485 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+116) 10
< 1767610747 818121 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1767611015 928036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172271&oldid=172267 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1258) 10
< 1767611388 545817 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.9.1+deb2+b3 - https://znc.in
< 1767611408 838424 :simcop2387!~simcop238@perlbot/patrician/simcop2387 JOIN #esolangs simcop2387 :ZNC - https://znc.in
> 1767611424 428231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172272&oldid=172271 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-53) 10/* Papermaking */ ->

> 1767611564 546453 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172273&oldid=172260 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+133) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */
> 1767611842 718699 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172274&oldid=172272 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+644) 10/* Writing basic documents */
> 1767611855 16222 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172275&oldid=172274 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-5) 10
> 1767611923 958500 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172276&oldid=172275 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+44) 10/* Writing basic documents */
> 1767611992 877189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172277&oldid=172276 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+38) 10
> 1767613050 564350 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172278&oldid=172263 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+308) 10
> 1767613084 555175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172279&oldid=172278 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+188) 10
< 1767613473 340523 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:fdba:6d74:f9b5:b51b QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
> 1767615840 842563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:QianJianTec1767615761041.png10]]": It's just a polynomial, what harm could it possibly have?
> 1767617849 313748 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Crypten14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172281&oldid=166924 5* 03 5* (+11) 10Fixed broken link
> 1767618592 428722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Polynomix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172282 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+125) 10Created page with "Polynomix will be a powerful computer language designed by islptng. Maybe it'll be implemented in Rust (I'm not sure.)"
< 1767620773 153439 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767623405 483218 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Celebrate Mungday! Hail Eris!       😇
< 1767625190 448502 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767626849 888646 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1767627806 799046 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767627846 351960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The interview between Daniel Temkin and yayimhere is now online: https://esoteric.codes/blog/yayimhere-interview
> 1767629024 594063 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:MicroMiku14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172283&oldid=172258 5* 03Ais523 5* (+535) 10why not merge and redirect?
> 1767630185 720347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172284&oldid=172182 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+1033) 10okay this is much better. I like this
> 1767630244 704274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FISHQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172285&oldid=66257 5* 03DockedChutoy 5* (+371) 10
> 1767630400 775392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172286&oldid=172147 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10formatting
> 1767630823 646892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172287&oldid=172284 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10/* Commands */
> 1767630960 676669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172288&oldid=172287 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+60) 10/* Commands */ extremely esoteric
> 1767631034 186428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172289&oldid=172288 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10/* Commands */ 4-6 commands
< 1767631037 809720 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 QUIT :Quit: korvo
< 1767631057 359550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 JOIN #esolangs Corbin :korvo
> 1767631352 190070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172290&oldid=171562 5* 03Timm 5* (-12) 10
> 1767631366 215149 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Abacus Computer14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172291&oldid=172290 5* 03Timm 5* (-14) 10
> 1767631427 339878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172292&oldid=172273 5* 03Corbin 5* (+123) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */ Five!
< 1767632193 205151 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Interesting article. Says much more about Temkin than yayimhere though.
< 1767634478 350243 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:395d:5c96:b2eb:8f95 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1767634506 915682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I learned quite a bit about both of them, I think
< 1767634527 609846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I'm already fairly familiar with Temkin's style
< 1767634573 756473 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, you can view both sides of the interview as being an exercise in extracting unintended/unintentional meaning from things
< 1767634594 750411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(which is not necessarily a bad exercise! it's an entirely valid source of new ideas)
< 1767634626 341554 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767634629 658263 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hello!
< 1767634634 846236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1767634637 102218 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :how are you all doing?
< 1767634638 339009 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're discussing your interview
< 1767634641 787425 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1767634643 684603 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1767634646 227299 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :what a surprise
< 1767634649 22337 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my email client notifier actually worked
< 1767634654 938668 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :great!
< 1767634684 38104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I sympathise with the point of view of taking one aspect of something and really focusing on it to see how far you can get
< 1767634713 460281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in one of my own esoteric.codes interviews, I mentioned about how some of my languages were ideas extracted from a bigger, unfinished language
< 1767634731 471302 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh which one?
< 1767634760 107843 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i didnt notice that in the 2017 one if its that one
< 1767634791 421312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the second one, in the section talking about three star programmer
< 1767634797 338220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was just a mention rather than the main point of the section
< 1767634803 907783 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1767634808 87431 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1767634828 450760 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, it's in the *second* section talking about three star programmer, sorry, I missed that there were two of them
< 1767634846 870154 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :its ok
< 1767634963 928219 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :what did you think of the interview?
< 1767635107 55999 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it gave me a lot of insight into your languages
< 1767635129 88000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking that your languages often contain interesting ideas that weren't well-explained, and realised that I often have problems explaning my own ideas too
< 1767635145 891138 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :often I can't get my point across even despite having had a lot of practice
< 1767635148 317968 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :ideas are a strange thing
< 1767635196 814794 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :and can be hard to describe, as you said
< 1767635241 322466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes I have problems describing my ideas even to myself
< 1767635285 850137 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, thats interesting
< 1767635350 798179 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like it sometimes takes months to shape an idea into a space where I can understand/describe it properly (although this has mostly been happening with non-esoprogramming ideas recently)
< 1767635471 613814 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the sort of esolangs I like have fewer moving pieces to interact with than practical languages do, so there are fewer interactions that need to be explored
< 1767635491 761977 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea that makes sense
< 1767635657 345974 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :are there any other thoughts you have on the interview
< 1767635775 267440 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I worry that Temkin is sliding into the Lex Friedman style of interviewing. It didn't really feel like he was doing anything investigative.
< 1767635834 699964 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, interesting
< 1767635874 518633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I was interested that you were interested in An Odd Rewriting System, I didn't expect it to be high up the list of my languages that other people liked
< 1767635911 760853 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess it's connected with the way it was made: I noticed a common aspect of esolang ideas I had that made programs hard to write
< 1767635920 950805 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I wanted to write an esolang about that one exact problem, to really focus on it
< 1767635940 665140 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh. i had actually thought it was pretty high up the list. Whats interesting to me is as you said the concept
> 1767635943 16250 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172293&oldid=172289 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+99) 10/* Memory */
< 1767635951 289037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so a reaction of not really understanding it is connected to that – I didn't really understand the problem either, so I wrote an esolang
< 1767635965 298189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and found one solution but it might not be the best solution (it would be interesting in a way if it is, but I suspect it isn't)
< 1767635996 48036 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was also just one of the first languages of yours I came across
< 1767636052 208209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering which of my other esolangs were created to highlight a problem – is it just Feed the Chaos? I can't think of any others offhand
< 1767636075 308178 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :I cant either
< 1767636083 687362 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Globe?
< 1767636085 272316 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps
< 1767636096 559209 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure that interviews necessarily have to be investigative – giving the interviewee space to talk about what they want to talk about is often enough
< 1767636107 250281 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i agree
< 1767636125 375840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although maybe the ideal is to present new points of view for the interviewee to think aobut
< 1767636137 670847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Globe is more an exploration of a solution than an exploration of a problem, I think
< 1767636146 195825 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: If it's not a conversation then what's the point of the second person?
< 1767636150 231928 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess that's a way of highlighting a problem in its own right
< 1767636158 528774 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: at least in this case, visibility
< 1767636161 628567 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think he certainly did bring me ideas I hadn't though about before
< 1767636173 582234 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Oh! Then *the entire enterprise* is wrong and backwards.
< 1767636225 677487 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it also helps the interviewee to organise their thoughts
< 1767636231 886949 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The *entire problem* with Lex Friedman and similar interviewers is that they provide a platform without any insight or nuance. Friedman uploads 2hrs of their guest ranting, punctuated every 30min by a fresh one-sentence question.
< 1767636303 981568 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm reminded of the debates in which election candidates try to convince people to vote for them: those technically have an interviewer but their role is intentionally minimal, only there to set topics (and occasionally to do fact checks)
< 1767636336 716164 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :Temkin atleast certainly sparked some ideas I hadn't though about before
< 1767636386 846164 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a long-running program in the UK called "question time" where they invite a member of all the major political parties, and sometimes a celebrity or two with unusual political views, and ask them questions which are basically there to set a topic on which the panel expresses their own viewpoint
< 1767636399 721814 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess that I think that organizing thoughts is something a person can prompt themselves to do. When I was in high school, as part of debate and speech, I was taught to interrogate my own position. These sorts of self-questioning setups are, at least to me, a necessary part of writing blog posts.
< 1767636421 338515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and this is valuable because it serves as a pretty reliable way to understand the views of the people that you're voting for
< 1767636428 517843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and what other possible views might exist
< 1767636458 222249 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :We can't do that in the USA because our political candidates are too stupid and the First Amendment ensures that we can insult them for it. The UK has trouble admitting that their king is unelected; meanwhile in the USA we famously disqualified a man from office because he could not spell "potato".
< 1767636484 740060 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have to go now but I will be back
< 1767636497 790736 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere: I'm glad that it was a good experience for you. I invite you to blog more often and explain your work.
< 1767636525 906636 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION &

< 1767636589 197859 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the King simultaneously has, even in theory, both a very large amount of political power and almost no political power: he has some very wide-ranging abilities but isn't supposed to use them except on the advice of the government, which effectively make them the government's powers
< 1767636602 380634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and the "isn't supposed to" is actually officially documented somewhere)
< 1767636671 402219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in practice the role turns into "person who officially interprets what the government's intention is"
< 1767636686 338719 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is not obvious that this needs to be an elected role
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> 1767638966 719578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172294&oldid=172293 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-240) 10remove unnecessary command
< 1767639205 235770 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: i dont really have anywhere to blog about my languages
< 1767639326 247183 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it do see the gain in doing it
< 1767639672 172861 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :hey, ais523, are you still trying to prove Annihilator's computational class? or are other things occupying your mind
< 1767639683 295439 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't looked at that problem in a while
< 1767639694 78273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally, if I don't make progress on a computational class issue for a while, I just give up until I have new ideas
< 1767639721 100213 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :k
< 1767639731 717115 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk PRIVMSG #esolangs :i was just wondering since I was reading the page
< 1767639885 701340 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@109.56.91.151.mobile.3.dk QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
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> 1767640005 42495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172295 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+164) 10Created page with "I like where this language is going! Keep at it --~~~~"
< 1767641353 379985 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:4056:1582:bd69:e830:90c6:66ad QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767641570 277204 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could have sworn that I'd told them about Neocities and a few other options. I can understand the psychological desire to put barriers in front of ultimately-undesirable goals, though.
< 1767641639 606355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :writing a blog is one thing, getting people to read it is another
< 1767641666 318255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm fairly well-connected in that respect, but even so I don't think all that many people read my blog (it is hard to tell because many of the requests to it will be from AI scrapers)
< 1767641782 646288 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes the point of the blog is not so that people proactively read it, but so that you can retroactively hand them an article when they are loudly wrong.
< 1767641800 494361 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Other times it's cathartic to get a short story or essay out of the mind and onto the page.
< 1767641802 845598 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767641851 504555 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1767641972 311891 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1767643410 885741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172296&oldid=172295 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+287) 10thanks!
> 1767643552 90192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Livefish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172297&oldid=146676 5* 03DockedChutoy 5* (+5) 10fix
< 1767644509 241546 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's weird to think, anything you write onto a blog, now will become some company's AI's training data
< 1767644526 520673 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with so many AI scraping bots seeking content
< 1767644598 797883 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Why is that weird? The law on it was settled two decades ago and the practice was standardized three decades ago.
< 1767644602 339587 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767644666 957603 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is interesting how training-time LLMs are now an audience worth considering. People have historically not appreciated my blog posts because they don't really like my POV, but an LLM doesn't care and may even learn something by reading. (Humans famously don't read much of what they claim to read, you see.)
< 1767644733 949170 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's "weird" because part of my brain becomes part of some AI's brain by "learning" my thought patterns
< 1767644739 819190 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :More important is that people not upload stuff to GitHub if they aren't prepared to have their stuff used for Copilot training. For me, this is largely *funny* because most of my code is bespoke to the point where it's not useful for corporations; but also the few things that matter are uploaded elsewhere.
< 1767644756 645540 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you're "influencing" the AI. it's like a separate audience...
< 1767644781 553254 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :their AI could learn "bad" things from you
< 1767644793 563436 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's no supervision in this web scraping
< 1767644805 862656 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1767644828 240095 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least some reputable companies use a selected, reviewed data set for training, not random ad-hoc internet stuff
> 1767644879 549629 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172298&oldid=170908 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+42) 10/* Examples */
> 1767644890 879547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172299&oldid=172298 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10/* Examples */
> 1767644913 153163 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172300&oldid=172292 5* 03 5* (+633) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */
< 1767644931 541316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, they use Common Crawl, see commoncrawl.org for more details. It's random ad-hoc stuff that people are sharing with each other; maybe it's popular, maybe not. It's preferable to a high-Reddit diet like the one that induced glitch tokens in GPT-2.
> 1767645011 167160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172301&oldid=172299 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+215) 10/* Examples */
< 1767645252 457781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've considered designing a server to detect various styles of scrapers and send them information that poisons the model in various ways, to make it possible to subsequently check to see who was doing the scraping by prompting them with the trigger phrase and seeing which ones return poisoned results
< 1767645295 953701 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Here's how I think of it: an LLM is a bag of sentences. When you reach into it with a given context, you can pull out any sentence in the training data which matches that context, as well as many similar sentences which might occur in future training data. The controls we have as writers are to put certain sentences out there and hope that they get into the bag, or to withhold certain sentences from the public to make them less likely.
< 1767645309 781311 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I put many more words in the comments here: https://awful.systems/post/5211510
< 1767645402 565120 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/ is what many folks are using. You can use awful.systems as an example domain; in some search engines like DDG/Bing there are still good results, but Google no longer returns useful results from that domain at all.
< 1767645417 412240 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: for scrapers, random replace some words in your text with the N-word
< 1767645441 45257 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: 4chan already appears in training data~
< 1767645478 438130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I'm not sure how good Iocaine is at actually poisoning training data, as opposed to merely being useless – perhaps it's pretty effective though (it is named after a fictional poison, after all)
< 1767645509 224428 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night *
< 1767645544 162517 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Peace.
< 1767645582 445791 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It has to be manually filtered by humans. It's not as useless as Glaze or Nightshade, for which there are automatic tagging-and-cleaning pipelines!
< 1767645651 528729 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ah, I was more thinking about "assuming it isn't filtered, will it have a substantial impact on the LLM's output"?
< 1767645690 137551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's based on markov chains, which will end up generating fragments of plausible sentences very often because that's what they do, so maybe a query to the LLM will match something that randomly appeared in a Markov chain and the LLM will think that the rest of the Markov chain is a good continuation
< 1767645706 826099 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a.k.a. hallucination
< 1767645747 238029 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :LLM hallucinations are pretty different from that, they normally consists of statement that assume that a pattern continues, when the pattern doesn't actually exist
< 1767645758 414486 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: In general, low-perplexity text doesn't appear to harm training. There's a paper with a title like "Textbooks are all you need" which shows that the most important training data is high-perplexity textbooks.
< 1767645761 400240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or does exist but not in that context
< 1767645802 986052 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you train the LLM *only* on low-perplexity inputs then there is a ceiling to the learned complexity. (...Phrased like that, maybe it could even be a theorem of the PAC framework?) That's the so-called "model collapse" that folks sometimes discuss.
< 1767645828 27659 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking more like, making the pages you serve to scrapers all contain a particular false sentence, and then see whose LLMs end up believing the sentence
< 1767645838 150632 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if it's something that's harmless and plausible, but wrong
< 1767645843 632312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sort-of like trap streets on maps
< 1767645880 554101 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: A confabulation, or what folks call "hallucination", is due to the fact that natlangs all contain words for dualizing/polarizing/inverting a concept: hot and cold are a good example from biology and physics.
< 1767645947 252976 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So you get — cannot stress enough that this is what they really call it — "Waluigi paths", which are relatively likely paths that can get an LLM to completely flip its polarity with regard to a concept under discussion. This is broadly called the "Waluigi effect".
< 1767645993 918720 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe comes from the fact that training data has polarity shifts in comparisons
< 1767646007 326008 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For me, a much neater explanation is that an LLM *must* confabulate sometimes because it's a finite pile of weights trying to model a nearly-infinite world; there's no way that every true fact (and *only* true facts, defying Tarski and Gödel somehow) can fit into only a few GiB.
< 1767646035 781821 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: It's because the highest-probability answers to any yes/no question are "yes" and "no", polar opposites.
< 1767646124 247241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the "ideal" for an AI model with an LLM-like interface would be for it to be a lossily compressed collection of a statement of facts, with the lossiness not mattering in practice (or causing the AI to say that it didn't know)
< 1767646132 954936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also epistemological hurdles; https://lobste.rs/s/yykymj/hallucinations_are_inevitable_can_be#c_aexu7v covers those and links to more.
< 1767646138 927017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's theoretically plausible that one of those could exist in a few GiB – although I also think that LLMs are not that
< 1767646158 616103 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stochastic parrots
< 1767646188 657889 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah. We know that, regardless of architecture, it's not possible for any finite pile of facts to generate only the true facts about natural numbers; that's just Tarski's Undefinability. So even this sort of ideal model is still just a compressed Wikipedia.
> 1767646225 279013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Index php14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172302 5* 03 5* (+583) 10Created page with "'''Index php''' is an esolang made by [[User:]]. == What and why == Index php is a random idea  had in mind (kinda) based in a [[Minsky machine]]. It's because  had no idea what to do. Also, it is his second esolang in 2026! == Commands, i guess == * {{cd|ADD [X] [Y]}}: Adds 
< 1767646233 92316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Yes, but you have to actually read Gebru et al for the nuance. A parrot doesn't just emit one token; they emit a *path* of tokens. It's the same bag-of-sentences model I mentioned earlier!
< 1767646244 8647 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's eventually anything gravitates to, when it's based on webscraping. a compressed Wikipedia + Reddit + Quora
< 1767646257 760148 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what an LLM trained on only Reddit would look like
> 1767646273 27827 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:/esolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172303&oldid=171964 5* 03 5* (+15) 10
< 1767646285 896648 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't even know what proportion of Reddit is serious discussion and what proportion is shitposting and memes
< 1767646290 588491 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :llama from meta spits stuff quoting from reddit
< 1767646298 760708 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but would expect the LLM to roughly match it
< 1767646301 50426 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :their scrapers definitely seen reddit
< 1767646309 738206 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, but they have other sources too
< 1767646314 500298 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least one version
< 1767646323 54891 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :quotes quora as well
< 1767646326 702467 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and other references
< 1767646340 526266 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so in the end... those kind of LLMs tend to be Internet.zip
< 1767646340 577255 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: GPT-2 and GPT-3 are good hints. A now-classic explanation of the "SolidGoldMagikarp" meme exists at (sigh) LW: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/aPeJE8bSo6rAFoLqg/solidgoldmagikarp-plus-prompt-generation
< 1767646393 970894 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :spits out something in a second, that you could have found with 1 min of googling
< 1767646415 655723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: They have to be! All general compression techniques have universal properties in common. Shalizi's got a great explanation: http://bactra.org/notebooks/nn-attention-and-transformers.html
< 1767646420 976221 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :while boiling some cooling water in some giant AI data centre
< 1767646438 967981 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :stockpiling on gazillion zigabytes of RAM, pumping up memory prices
< 1767646440 240353 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh whoops, you specifically want http://bactra.org/notebooks/nn-attention-and-transformers.html#gllz
< 1767646516 5977 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Not to defend the bubble, but data centers don't boil water. They buy standard drinking water *at market rates* and spray it into the incoming air for air conditioning. Most of it evaporates off. This is why they're so often located near rivers; they get cheap power from dams and cheap water too.
< 1767646575 58088 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, if you want to be angry about water usage, attack golf courses. 
< 1767646582 675881 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because they need those yottabyes of RAM to store Internet.zip for their AI agents
< 1767646629 931395 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's it's so fast because the (extracted) weights are already in memory. i.e. fast access
< 1767646646 991612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OpenAI's buying RAM because they want to own their own data center. *Anybody* who makes data centers needs to buy RAM. Check the secondhand RAM market if you want affordable RAM; I bought an old 150 GiB Dell workstation for $150, for example.
< 1767646654 673907 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the more memory they have... the faster they can process
< 1767646703 715656 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea, but to run AI you need like... a lot of RAM, compared to your average application
< 1767646720 675658 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :when checking how to run these models locally. some require quite a lot of RAM
< 1767646774 59210 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No. To run *LLMs* you need a fair amount of RAM. And, actually, you can get by with only having the model state in RAM and the model weights on disk! Inference only requires a few MiB of RAM.
< 1767646787 548609 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is why they are "large".
< 1767646823 715415 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Traditional AI schemes usually are less than a MiB. They had to be! We've been doing image classification since the 1960s. We've been doing speech synthesis since the 1970s.
< 1767646899 163267 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, everything could be cached from disk, of course
< 1767646907 945583 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably they don't do that for performance
< 1767646917 823883 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Ugh, wrong link, sorry. You want Part 3, where they discover the habits of certain Redditors: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/8viQEp8KBg2QSW4Yc/solidgoldmagikarp-iii-glitch-token-archaeology
< 1767646952 581805 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scoofy: Yep. I'm doing experiments on that 150GiB machine. I also build stuff like the Linux kernel, systemd, and Firefox, which can't be built on their target machines either. A *lot of things* need high-RAM machines to build!
> 1767646965 701468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172304&oldid=172254 5* 03A() 5* (-157) 10/* Calculator */
< 1767647074 911947 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At any rate, OpenAI's products need RAM *on the GPU board* so that the GPU can quickly access it, and that is *not* in competition with consumer RAM markets. What actually happened: Micron's winding down their Crucial consumer brand and this is raising prices because there's now less competition.
> 1767647083 590556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07PMPL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172305&oldid=172304 5* 03A() 5* (+18) 10
> 1767647131 621084 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03 5*  10moved [[02EmojiStack10]] to [[Mojifunge]] over redirect
> 1767647131 639826 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03 5*  10 deleted redirect [[02Mojifunge10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[EmojiStack]]"
> 1767647183 506634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07EmojiStack14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172308&oldid=172307 5* 03 5* (+2162) 10Removed redirect to [[Mojifunge]]
< 1767647431 776887 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: right, the problem is that less memory is being produced because one major manufacturer's entire memory-production capacity was bought up
< 1767647476 120788 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, it's been *allocated*. It hasn't actually been *paid for*. Big difference.
< 1767647507 165083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was hoping that Micron would ensure that this was being paid for in advance, especially as I expect some of their few remaining customers to go bankrupt at some point (maybe soon)
< 1767647538 4840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm more wondering about what's going to happen to all this neural-network hardware when the bubble bursts
< 1767647545 675847 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But yeah, the secondhand market hasn't seen a shift. I don't have a problem with people insisting on fresh DIMMs, but it's just like with new cars: you're paying that premium because it's new and you lose 20% of the value the moment it's driven off the lot.
< 1767647591 918952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't possibly make sense for it to be needed in this high quantity *even if* LLMs turn out to be successful and long-lived, people will work out the largest model they need and use just the resources on it that are needed
< 1767647634 227871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least for me, with respect to memory and data storage, second-hand doesn't make sense because by the time people stop using the memory/storage it is normally exponentially smaller than things that are cheaply currently available
< 1767647635 119481 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, it's not neural-network hardware. It's matrix-multiplying hardware. Maybe some more specialized groups like Coral will have trouble selling their TPU-on-a-stick, but Google's TPU business has only grown with time.
< 1767647675 362227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically dense matrices, right? spare matrices need different algorithms, so that reduces the use cases somewhat
< 1767647687 430249 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* sparse matrices
< 1767647697 327276 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :If you're thinking of nVidia, rumor is that the GPUs they're selling to Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and Coreweave aren't really suitable for GPGPU workloads. They're more like Bitcoin-mining ASICs; they *could* be reused but they're somewhat specialized and have shorter projected lifespans.
< 1767647706 950363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the number format may not generalise well either, neural networks often use very low-precision numbers
< 1767647720 205743 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, dense matrices. Like, Coral was originally targeting image-classification workloads IIRC.
< 1767647918 69860 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, my opinions/predictions about the future of technology is "LLMs are a dead end that will never be substantially more useful than they are today (where their usefulness is somewhat limited), but neural networks / machine learning in general are useful and probably underutilised"
< 1767647962 356726 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even so, I'm concerned about the quantity of fast neural-network hardware, because most plausible applications for them don't need to be at that kind of scale (even LLMs almost certainly don't need to be – for most of the tasks at which LLMs are good, smaller language models would also be good)
< 1767648020 109734 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would point out something new in every era of language modeling, going all the way back to Markov. LLMs have given us the ability to compare sentences for semantic similarity, and more generally to embed sentences into a vector space over floats; it's not nothing!
< 1767648055 927139 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :r/counting breaking ChatGPT's token inference is both amazing, and extremely plausible – the entire subreddit is almost entirely based on comment volume
< 1767648080 119506 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(IIRC I intentionally contributed exactly 1 number to that count – but I don't use Reddit nowadays)
< 1767648174 977945 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the state of the art becomes something other than attention-transformers, will people come up with a new term or will they keep calling everything "LLM" and obfuscating the difference?
< 1767648201 853442 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that the main problem with LLMs is that the products based on them are making horribly false and misleading claims. More generally, the project of robotics/AI is to create artifical laborers without rights, which we should reject on multiple moral grounds.
< 1767648425 528578 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :thoroughly uninterested in arguments about attention-transformers that rely _solely_ on the consequences of being a finite system, unless the speaker is trying to argue for duality and/or biological hypercomputation
< 1767648517 904616 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :kind of reminds me of the "we know a bunch of strategies to prove P!=NP that cannot possibly work because they relativize, in some sense, and P=NP under some oracles"
< 1767648598 278119 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that P≠NP situation is one of those results that makes the situation so much harder to resolve – we have a proof that entire classes of P≠NP proofs cannot possibly work, but it is not powerful enough to prove that P=NP even nonconstructively
< 1767648614 153961 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:99cd:cd7:ecf5:fac2 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767648650 955176 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not possible for P=?NP to be proven formally undecidable, right? because doing so would prove that no polynomial-time algorithm for solving NP-complete problems exist, and thus that P≠NP
< 1767648659 729015 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Personally I'm pretty sensitive to the difference because I study Mamba, RWKV, and other recurrent/transformers hybrids. I think that it's nice to have a basis for confabulation that makes oracles and genies impossible, even though I know that it won't convince everybody.
< 1767648660 123105 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and so if P=?NP is formally undecidable, there will be no way to prove it
< 1767648736 359024 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, Hofstadter (when discussing the Church-Turing thesis) brings up the possibility of biological hypercomputation (not as something he believes in, but as something he wasn't sure he could rule out definitively)
< 1767648771 985420 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's possible that P=NP but no correct algorithm can be proven correct for all inputs
< 1767648811 438028 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :sigma_2
< 1767648901 830556 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Whether P=NP is arithmetic, I thought? So it *has* an answer. Maybe we don't have a strong-enough number theory yet.
< 1767648999 538291 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, the case of an algorithm that is correct but cannot be proven so is interesting – I've seen similar situations before
< 1767649038 508339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the case of P=NP, such algorithms would practically be very useful because they cannot give the *wrong* answer, only a correct answer or a "don't know" (because checking if a purported solution to an NP problem is correct is fast)
< 1767649136 36444 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's a fairly standard approach, iterate over a program index and a runtime and stop when one of the programs outputs a satisfying assignment
< 1767649164 749579 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :easily proven to be correct and, conditionally on P=NP, runs in time of some polynomial
< 1767649237 274144 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't read Russian, but I gather that Levin's entire research programme worked that way. First, show that a brute search is complete and correct; second, show that it is optimal; third, show that it is NP-complete.
< 1767649266 404334 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So P vs NP is purely about determining the runtime of those algorithms; it's a fine-structure question about the Polynomial Hierarchy.
< 1767649276 327372 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: oh right, because for any given problem in P, this only has to search through finitely many programs and the number of programs it has to search doesn't depend on the input
< 1767649283 270326 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the result is polynomial-time but with a terrible constant factor
< 1767649298 605984 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if P≠NP, this algorithm is still correct but it isn't polynomial-time
< 1767649445 909360 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with "prove brute force search is optimal" is that it generally _isn't_, the exponential time hypothesis is a subtler statement than that
< 1767649587 702876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, we know an algorithm that solves NP programs in polynomial time if P=NP, but this is useless for two reasons, one is that even though it's polynomial time it's quite slow for our hardware, the other is that most likely P≠NP
< 1767649676 878305 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Right, and even folks like myself who are skeptical of SETH are still usually willing to concede ETH. AIUI we have no evidence against ETH, and instead we have stuff like phase transitions in k-SAT.
< 1767649693 439566 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not only is it polynomial time, it also gives you the lowest possible polynomial degree
< 1767649727 877565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was planning to do something similar in a golfing language – run all possible evaluation orders in parallel
< 1767649772 558901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because often when you're writing a golfed program, some of the evaluation orders terminate and others go into infinite loops, so this would guarantee that the program would terminate if there was any evaluation order for which it terminated
< 1767649788 79329 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in code golf, correctly behaving programs are almost always expected to terminate)
< 1767649892 309632 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tangent: Nobody has implemented [[Pola]] yet. If you can implement any NPC problem in Pola then P=NP. I'd expect any true believers in P=NP to jump at this opportunity to do some descriptive complexity theory with witnessing programs.
< 1767649956 903384 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I think I assign a higher probability to the possibility that P=NP than most computer scientists do (although it's still fairly low)
< 1767649971 100778 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are so many cases where things turned out to have a lower complexity than expected
< 1767650093 501499 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm one of those Bayesian freaks, and my prior is a composite of several surveys; I'm 99% sure that we are in either Minicrypt or Cryptomania based on empirical evidence. This is a relatively weak belief, so I could be moved by evidence, but it's above the magic threshold of 7/8, so I hold it.
< 1767650216 656448 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes, my beliefs about P=NP are fairly weak and could easily be moved by evidence – but on the other hand, I'm not expecting substantial new evidence any time soon
< 1767650257 236628 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Tangent to LLMs: My P(doom from AI) is too small to numerically estimate. It's dominated by e.g. P(doom from nuclear apocalypse), which is like 0.5%. I think people panic too much about black-swan events while ignoring the underlying patterns and implied required maintenance of societal infrastructure.
< 1767650257 860655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I have a complexity question. your input is a Catan board (hex grid) of unlimited size and the information of which edges have a road by the yellow player. The number of roads is also unlimited, unlike in real Catan and its extensions. Is there a polynomial time algorithm to find the longest path of roads that doesn't reuse any road? 
> 1767650259 430145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172309&oldid=172161 5* 03RaiseAfloppaFan3925 5* (-133) 10
< 1767650265 47136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was brought up to believe in Bayesianism, although that mostly just left me questioning it a bit
< 1767650355 804352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is an easy problem in real Catan, which is limited to 14 road pieces per player, and I think even in all Catan expansions though I don't actually know most of them, heuristics work well enough for those small inputs. but I don't know a general polynomial time algorithm, nor can prove that it's NP-hard
< 1767650356 167027 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the way I see it is that a) the theoretical risk from a sufficiently smart AI is very large, but the odds that such an AI actually exists or could be created short term is very small; b) in addition to risks from underestimating AIs, there are also risks from overestimating AIs, and those could potentially be much larger (but the odds of them being apocalyptic are quite low)
< 1767650394 917920 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I live in a long-term earthquake zone (Cascadia Subduction Zone) and so I need something like Bayesianism to manage the existential dread from the Floor of Damocles.
< 1767650400 624341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: hehe, that's https://xkcd.com/552/
< 1767650420 607236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like, if a country assumes an LLM is smarter than humans and decides to put it in charge of the government as a consequence, that could have huge consequences if the LLM
< 1767650465 638003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* if the LLM isn't particularly smart
< 1767650604 929970 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm going to call that "probably NP-complete" as a variant of the planar longest path problem but I haven't looked closely at that recently enough to know where the cutoff is
< 1767650642 705552 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Does it have to be a usable road? Like, does it have to stretch from port to port?
< 1767650654 56707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: no
< 1767650702 458100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: "planar longest path"? I'll try to search for that, good idea
< 1767650748 864103 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767650782 216658 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: That's understandable. I think that your framing, which I've heard from other folks, is 100% reasonable. At the same time, there's a parallel framing where we talk about e.g. P(doom from pyramid scheme). We won't go extinct from a pyramid scheme, but in 1997 one nearly destroyed the government of Albania!
< 1767650829 762522 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So should I say that P(doom from pyramid scheme) is high because government leaders are stupid enough to do it again, internationally, or low because pyramid schemes are obviously silly and we're all more reasonable people than that?
< 1767650945 940023 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Statistically "giant meteor" is surprisingly high on the list of most likely things to kill any given person
< 1767650979 14032 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think that this is techically a "longest trail problem", where a trail is a path that doesn't reuse edges but can reuse vertices. Not sure how you feel about that. I am not sure whether it's NP-hard, but it probably is reducible to longest-path by putting some restriction on vertices.
< 1767651038 273381 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Exactly! So should we talk of P(doom to me, personally, because of my personal choices) or P(doom to a country because its leader was influenced by something on their phone)?
< 1767651047 476386 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :catan roads are a cubic graph, you can't reuse a vertex except at the beginning or the end because that would require a degree >= 4
< 1767651067 12482 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or P(doom to somebody, somewhere, alive today)
< 1767651114 132522 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :subcubic
< 1767651123 698364 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hey, that'd work. So the longest trail can't be longer than the longest path + 2. Nice.
< 1767651164 818215 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :giant meteors are less worrying nowadays than they historically were because a) governments do actually check for them and would probably compete to being able to take credit for preventing doom from them, and b) the more devastating a meteor hit would be, the easier the meteor would be to spot and thus the earlier we could do something about it
< 1767651214 981369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: on the hex grid these are almost the same, because every node has at most 3 degree, so you can only reuse nodes at the ends of the path, so the length can differ by at most 2.
< 1767651216 247486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we spot a meteor a long distance away, its trajectory only needs to be changed very slightly to prevent it colliding with Earth, so a comparatively small intervention would be sufficient
< 1767651231 873100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, what sorear says
< 1767651277 887840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : So should I say that P(doom from pyramid scheme) is high because government leaders are stupid enough to do it again, internationally ← arguably, with LLMs, government leaders are actually doing that at the moment
< 1767651280 550610 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I also like the astrological analogy because it turns out that there are more interstellar comets than we expected, so our P(ancient aliens) should actually have been much higher from a Fermi/Drake approach. But they don't get close to Earth either, so maybe there's a more universal P(things come close to Earth) that we can use as a generalization.
< 1767651305 524906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm hoping that the damage will be confined to a somewhat suboptimal allocation of resources
< 1767651322 497430 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, maybe there's a P(doom from leaders looking at phone) which is more general than P(doom from BTC prices) in El Salvador or P(doom from Stable Diffusion images) in USA.
< 1767651519 677918 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Yeah, that's where I am right now too. The pattern of taking Softbank money, taking Saudi money, and finally hitting a wall is well-documented and inevitable at this point; there's simply not a spare trillion USD worth of spare wealth to turn into a spare trillion USD worth of silicon monocrystal.
< 1767651585 306733 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So our grey-goo scenario ends in the same place as my yeast during the pre-pancake period: out of food, unable to expand, ready to be converted and eaten in turn.
< 1767651607 87858 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have seen a conjecture that at least some LLM providers are using a strategy of racing to become too big to fail before they actually fail
< 1767651620 833521 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OpenAI, for sure.
< 1767651712 621486 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At this point, OpenAI's actual failure is partially like Microsoft's, where self-cannibalization is inevitable due to stagnant monopoly, but also increasingly like Enron's, a staggering amount of book-cooking that destroyed one of the big international auditors in turn. Not sure if Enron's taught outside the USA.
< 1767651745 365170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least in the UK, I think most people have heard of Enron and have a basic idea of what happened to them, but don't know the details – at least I'm in that situation
< 1767651770 504984 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The dude that unwound Enron is currently in charge of unwinding FTX. I think it will be an amazing cap to a career if he's appointed to unwind OpenAI.
< 1767651780 458028 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is sometimes hard for me to know what situation the typical person would be in, due to not being a typical person myself – but I have to guess whether my atypicalities are relevant to the situation
< 1767651821 405122 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Enron was a power utility in Texas. They cooked their books. Their auditor helped them cover up the books. That's really all that matters; it was a *big* fraud, mostly.
< 1767651836 56981 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :as someone directly affected I could probably know more about them than I do
< 1767651917 887713 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm wondering what the incentives are, for someone engaged in accounting fraud, to do it to a small extent rather than a large extent – it's well-established that for most crimes you want such incentives to exist, to discourage criminals from deciding to go all-in once they've decided to commit crimes in the first place
< 1767651967 980485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: ok, I think you're right, so apparently it's NP-complete to determine if a planar graph has a hamiltonian circuit, which is an old result from the 70s but I hadn't recalled it, and I think you can do a polynomial reduction from this to the catan longest road problem, so that one is NP-complete too.
< 1767651974 770470 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's the "here's one of the great natural language training datasets" angle, the "here's the blood that CAISO's market rules were written in" angle, and the "corporate fraud" angle, the last of which I know the least about
< 1767652063 185146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I was just about to reply! So I think I've informally sketched that it's NP-complete. The missing piece is how to ensure that there aren't any trails which are longer than the longest path but built from the *second-longest* path. I think that we can do a poly-time reduction: when doing the NP-complete longest-path search, we can find all longest paths for free, so let's just find all of the paths within length 2 of the longest path.
< 1767652113 65205 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there can only be poly many such paths, so just iterate through them and make all of the longer trails; there's only six possibilities per path, right? So that's a poly-time reduction.
< 1767652114 64238 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the annoying part will be length-matching the embeddings of edges
< 1767652235 256755 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that a lot of assumptions about how, specifically, AI doom plays out were established in the 20th century and became entrenched with less actual information than we have now
< 1767652372 825798 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep. Offering professional services, I'm constantly bumping against the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act (CFAA), which the USA established as a response to a film called "Wargames" which is basically about a teenager SSH'ing into the Pentagon and launching nukes.
< 1767652418 353634 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's not a good film. If you want something from that era, "Hackers" is a standard recommendation. It's also dated but at least it's got better representation of actual hacking and social engineering.)
< 1767652489 110501 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, almost all AI doom discussion devolves into referencing "Terminator", "Terminator 2", or "The Matrix". And it's all built upon Asimov and Dick and Heinlein and Bradbury, which in turn was built upon "Metropolis" and "Rossum's Universal Robots".
< 1767652507 309181 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :arguably a machine which can hallucinate on any subject _is_ an AGI as the term was originally defined, illustrating the limitations of the concept
< 1767652584 411718 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I've considered for a while that corporations are, in effect, artificial general intelligences
< 1767652600 768693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they are powered by human thought, which makes them not count from many people's points of view
< 1767652619 957277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but sometimes they can act as though they hold opinions that don't match those of any of the people present, and they can certainly take actions that reasonable humans likely wouldn't take
< 1767652620 211161 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :At a former employer, P(doom from AI) was not a serious topic, but P(person is killed by cobot) was a real thing we discussed. I'm told that P(person is killed by high-speed swinging arm) is a real thing too, although fortunately I've not had one of *those* jobs. Yet.
< 1767652672 397484 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can have a lot of people communicating and form an emergent system out of them, and not really have much of an idea of how the system as a whole will behave
< 1767652680 491750 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Charlie Stross, myself, and a few other Awful Systems regulars have discussed this many times. The consensus is that selling shares was the tipping point; the East Indies Trade Company was the first paperclip-maximizer.
< 1767652683 775748 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…perhaps this would be an interesting esolang idea
< 1767652710 945596 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, we locate the Singularity sometime in the past. Stross puts it near the beginning of the Industrial Revolution IIRC; I put it in the 1910s or so, near quantum mechanics.
< 1767652835 223054 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if by "high-speed swinging arm" you mean "sailboat boom"
< 1767653004 153203 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: Oh wow. I kind of love that? I was thinking of the welding and assembling arms in a car factory but now I'm also thinking of big looms. I see robotics, cybernetics, and AI as the same thing; I'd be willing to think of it as stretching further back, too.
> 1767653017 350237 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172310&oldid=172236 5* 03Buckets 5* (+12) 10/* P */
> 1767653045 15267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172311&oldid=172237 5* 03Buckets 5* (+11) 10
> 1767653063 517316 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Phurb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172312 5* 03Buckets 5* (+782) 10Created page with "Phurb is an Esoteric Programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2020. ] {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | "" || Print What is within The Quotes, their representations. |- | m = || Represent the Variable m as whatever US On the Other side Of t
< 1767653210 214166 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i spent a week on a ship with the boom at head height, did not get paid
< 1767653247 217118 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Terrifying and frustrating.
< 1767653337 850910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Oh! I'm sorry, 3 × 3 = 9 possible paths, not 6.
> 1767654115 339115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turing tarpit14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172313&oldid=172300 5* 03Corbin 5* (+487) 10/* What is the limit to The Turing Tarpit? */ Machine or language?
< 1767654309 280535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1767654700 801928 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767654828 924740 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: I've seen you claim a few times that a programming language must be a language over an alphabet – I'm not sure I agree
< 1767654914 428189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it maybe comes down to whether or not there's a distinction between a program and a description of a program
< 1767654942 477572 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if a program isn't represented as a string of symbols, we have to convert it to one in order to be able to describe it to a computer in order to have it executed
< 1767655495 713924 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm saying it for the benefit of the youngsters, to force them to clarify their thinking. I'd hope that my structuring of the page, so that we have many different kinds of computational systems and different metrics for each of them, is open enough to accomodate more non-languages.
< 1767655622 234545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Here, the clarity is in realizing that a BF machine must have eight opcodes, but a BF monoid might have smaller rank.
< 1767655904 447425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
< 1767655984 727546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: such as the classic wrapping-BF technique of implementing a - as 255 +s
< 1767656028 60445 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that works.
< 1767657360 438399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or even without wrapping, you can have -< as a single builtin instead of - and < separately, I think that's a well-known trick
< 1767657487 218430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :then rewrite < to + -< and rewrite - to -< > and add an extra > to the start of the program so you don't fall off the start of the tape
< 1767657504 657396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the whole BF minimization page is full of people starting like this and then going off the rails
< 1767657552 107855 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simple_translation is an attempt to make sense of the mess
< 1767657567 932687 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and might correspond to korvo's concept of language rank
< 1767657585 705429 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And [[monoid]] is an attempt to make sense of [[simple translation]], since so much of that is actually unproven and imprecise.
< 1767657672 939075 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, it's a definition, so "unproven" doesn't really make sense as an adjective to apply to it
< 1767657792 926546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think I would make it precise as follows: you have two transformations, each of which consistently replaces a single character in the source code of one language with a sequence of characters in the source code of the other (one where the single characters are from one language, one where the single characters are from the other), and for any syntactically valid program in either language, compiling it into the other language using the appropriate 
< 1767657794 286897 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :transformation yields a program with the same halting-and-IO behaviour
< 1767657917 740395 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect that BF can be compiled into a two-symbol language under this definition, incidentally (but with the tape contents looking very different – there might not even be a tape in the other language)
< 1767657984 828558 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, the definition of ST is fine, yes. I mean the various claims about Brainfuck.
< 1767658001 600959 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some of this should go to dedicated pages. Boolfuck seems like a common target.
< 1767658338 720340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, there are a huge number of dubious/impossible claims about BF on the minimalization page
< 1767658380 197238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to me, things like claims to combine [] into a single instruction are implausible and need very strong evidence to convince me
< 1767658682 928993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you don't insist on translating each character to the same string and you're willing to take an exponential program size hit then compiling to a two symbol language is easy enough. one symbol does >+ the other is just an interpreter that counts the number of 1 cells before the 0 cell at the start of the tape then interprets that as a program.
> 1767658785 177750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172314&oldid=171995 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+238) 10
< 1767658882 437818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the challenge to me is entirely the "translate each character to the same string" problem
< 1767658974 133546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, something that makes it much easier is that for the translate-into-BF direction, you can make the translation of both commands contain nested balanced loops, rather than one having to be opening-unbalanced and the other having to be closing-unbalanced
< 1767659029 966272 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is to make both commands compile into BF code that records the command, and then interprets as much of the program as it's seen, stopping when more program text is needed to continue the interpretation
< 1767659040 913720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually I think this solves the entire problem when using some sort of binary-encoded-BF
> 1767659138 286969 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang (Fast Lookup)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172315 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+169) 10Created page with "This is the faster, more efficient lookup table for ASTLang functions and their parameters. If you want a more detailed explanation for each function, go to [[ASTLang]]."
< 1767659155 243032 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically just macro-expressibility?
> 1767659164 809716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172316&oldid=172314 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+41) 10/* Info */
> 1767659174 422749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172317&oldid=172316 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+1) 10/* Info */
< 1767659214 915868 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm not convinced. how do you find the start of the interpreted program if you aren't allowed to add a prelude to the translated brainfuck program?
< 1767659258 633267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh I see, same way as what I said
< 1767659264 37937 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you can easily make the BF program (say) leave the tape pointer on a 1 at the end of each command, so it knows it's the first command if it sees a 0 there
< 1767659281 288569 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1767660676 805901 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2799.nat.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767661594 605175 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1767661619 906993 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1767661737 18720 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Client Quit
< 1767661757 445366 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1767663541 242814 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1767663614 943512 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1767663620 992462 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Client Quit
< 1767663655 690415 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1767666095 20806 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1767667176 325777 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172318&oldid=172046 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+2) 10
< 1767668135 285910 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1767668339 61920 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot JOIN #esolangs perlbot :ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1767668591 65657 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767668592 80665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767668595 231505 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767668611 285749 :callforjudgement!~ais523@user/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1767668782 806496 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767670340 529981 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1767674431 463840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172319 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+6945) 10Created Page
> 1767674662 404837 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172320&oldid=172319 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+2097) 10Added a brainfuck interpreter
> 1767674709 508796 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172321&oldid=172320 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+4) 10Linked to tc page
> 1767674757 988752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172322&oldid=172321 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+66) 10/* Overview */
> 1767674825 398895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172323&oldid=172322 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+80) 10Categorized
> 1767674912 614812 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172324&oldid=172310 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+17) 10Added flipscript
> 1767675408 34942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flipscript14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172325&oldid=172323 5* 03QuantumCalculator 5* (+0) 10math is hard
< 1767675983 340081 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:395d:5c96:b2eb:8f95 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1767682869 570334 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767683038 351831 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://enclose.horse/
< 1767683252 457885 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767683862 789592 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767686602 551913 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2742.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1767690451 129354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172326&oldid=172301 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767690461 321270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172327&oldid=172326 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-20) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767690512 663210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172328&oldid=172327 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-264) 10/* Examples */
> 1767691141 25528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172329&oldid=172083 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* Mint */ add space so its an actual code section
> 1767691163 614638 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172330&oldid=172329 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+54) 10/* Basic Stack */
< 1767692436 339412 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e0df:c61f:1ec:e12 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767692442 326862 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e0df:c61f:1ec:e12 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have returned
< 1767692793 603756 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1767692832 728048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172331&oldid=172328 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+121) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767693061 516273 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172332&oldid=172331 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+144) 10/* Examples */
> 1767693179 902077 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172333&oldid=172332 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+80) 10/* Examples */
< 1767693306 216422 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 JOIN #esolangs ehmry :Emery
> 1767693318 500091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172334&oldid=172333 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-38) 10/* Examples */
> 1767693354 387125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172335&oldid=172334 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Syntax */
> 1767693685 325052 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172336&oldid=172335 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+51) 10/* Syntax */
> 1767694884 962838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172337&oldid=172336 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+130) 10/* Examples */
< 1767695236 276479 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767695279 269738 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172338&oldid=172277 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1214) 10
> 1767696126 403916 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172339&oldid=172338 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+802) 10
> 1767696145 506044 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172340&oldid=168235 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+755) 10
> 1767696203 593137 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172341&oldid=172339 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-6) 10/* English */
> 1767696741 666462 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172342&oldid=172341 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+198) 10/* English */
> 1767696761 210790 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172343&oldid=172342 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+11) 10
> 1767696894 978284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172344&oldid=172343 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+2) 10/* Writing basic documents */
> 1767696988 854523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ATechPerson 5*  10New user account
> 1767697227 716975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172345&oldid=172233 5* 03ATechPerson 5* (+253) 10introduction
> 1767697244 834715 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172346&oldid=172345 5* 03ATechPerson 5* (+94) 10sign
> 1767697268 872033 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ATechPerson14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172347 5* 03ATechPerson 5* (+29) 10create page
> 1767697332 442653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172348&oldid=172344 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+164) 10
< 1767697369 738099 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767697414 404361 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172349&oldid=172348 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+98) 10
> 1767697497 874580 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172350&oldid=172349 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+48) 10
> 1767698076 508971 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172351&oldid=172350 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+857) 10
> 1767698293 305367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172352&oldid=172351 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+515) 10
> 1767698484 191101 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172353&oldid=172352 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+490) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1767698902 505005 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172354&oldid=172353 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-10) 10/* English */
> 1767699172 789365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Standard Test Paper14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172355&oldid=172354 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+251) 10
> 1767699329 471002 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172356&oldid=171378 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+10) 10
> 1767699395 436209 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172357&oldid=172356 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-1) 10/* See Also */
> 1767699451 10378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172358&oldid=172357 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-2) 10
> 1767699988 997157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Minecraft14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172359&oldid=171245 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+2) 10/* Instruction list */
< 1767700873 339620 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e0df:c61f:1ec:e12 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds
< 1767701111 340196 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
> 1767701314 39159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quineless I cannot understand that.14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172360 5* 03None1 5* (+536) 10Created page with "'''Quineless I cannot understand that.''' is [[I cannot understand that.]] but there's no (non-empty) [[quine]], it's invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Commands== Every ''line'' is a command which prints:  I cannot understand that.  I cannot underst
> 1767701403 253417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07I cannot understand that.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172361&oldid=171574 5* 03None1 5* (+55) 10
> 1767701460 637266 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172362&oldid=126997 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+95) 10
> 1767701510 70605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172363&oldid=172324 5* 03None1 5* (-32) 10/* I */
> 1767701541 506583 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172364&oldid=171876 5* 03None1 5* (+75) 10/* General languages */
> 1767701645 681526 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172365&oldid=171898 5* 03None1 5* (+49) 10/* My Esolangs */
> 1767702366 399642 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03River 5*  10New user account
< 1767702977 347043 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e0df:c61f:1ec:e12 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
> 1767703857 211925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172366&oldid=172337 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1001) 10/* Aphasia */
< 1767703878 240113 :proklop!~proklop@176.118.170.234 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] proklop
< 1767703908 673763 :proklop!~proklop@176.118.170.234 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1767704258 241546 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172367&oldid=172362 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+38) 10/* Truth machine */
> 1767704774 88274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172368&oldid=172367 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1) 10/* Cat */
> 1767704900 940403 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172369&oldid=172368 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1) 10/* Cat */
> 1767705667 409602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainless14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172370&oldid=106599 5* 03RikoMamaBala 5* (+1178) 10
> 1767707310 229104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172371&oldid=172366 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1) 10/* Combinators */
> 1767708591 455600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172372&oldid=172371 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+71) 10/* Examples */
< 1767710006 261936 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767711142 367912 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unicode World14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172373&oldid=172020 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+4) 10
< 1767711367 114961 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767711991 627140 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dragoneater67 5*  10New user account
> 1767712447 915993 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172374&oldid=172346 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+205) 10/* Introductions */
> 1767712489 681513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172375&oldid=161277 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+25) 10/* "Examples" */
> 1767712732 297451 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172376&oldid=172375 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+74) 10/* Implementations */
> 1767713776 407174 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere2(school)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172377&oldid=172269 5* 03 5* (+597) 10/* i always see you in the school account */ new section
> 1767713889 141388 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Yayimhere2(school)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172378&oldid=172377 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+243) 10/* i always see you in the school account */
< 1767714279 443811 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1767714745 785708 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e0df:c61f:1ec:e12 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1767715781 90864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172379&oldid=172294 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-12) 10
> 1767715791 633844 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172380&oldid=172379 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+10) 10Turing tarpt
< 1767716107 206240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1767716115 300525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172381&oldid=172372 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-1) 10/* Examples */
> 1767716630 921985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172382&oldid=172380 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+429) 10implement a subtraction algorithm
> 1767716772 17406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172383&oldid=172382 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+8) 10possible* Turing tarpit
> 1767717339 245898 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172384&oldid=172296 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+337) 10minsky machine?
> 1767717723 377751 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172385&oldid=172384 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+307) 10
> 1767720967 218143 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172386 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+106) 10Created page with "Does this language allow "full" lambda calculus? can you pass lambdas to other lambdas an curry and so on?"
< 1767721382 88390 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767721860 307584 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767722057 873763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172387&oldid=172386 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+279) 10
> 1767722077 245402 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172388&oldid=172387 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+156) 10
> 1767722338 394248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172389&oldid=172388 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+289) 10
> 1767722372 561244 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172390&oldid=167116 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+11) 10/* Childish dialect */
> 1767722389 731082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172391&oldid=172390 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (-4) 10/* Childish dialect */
> 1767722391 586447 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172392&oldid=172389 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+166) 10
> 1767722491 806516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172393&oldid=172391 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+21) 10/* To mention */
> 1767722588 446466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pythonable RusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172394&oldid=167110 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+29) 10/* The reduction */
> 1767722765 93763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pythonable RusLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172395&oldid=172394 5* 03Esoboring ideas 5* (+81) 10/* The reduction */
> 1767723626 348921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 034A10LOAIH 5*  10New user account
> 1767724316 23028 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FOSMOL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172396&oldid=172392 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+589) 10
> 1767726026 216420 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172397&oldid=172222 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+139) 10added interpreter link
> 1767726050 989308 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172398&oldid=172397 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+37) 10fixed grammar
> 1767726095 102921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172399&oldid=172398 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+17) 10fixed link (wrong link)
> 1767726121 99520 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Folat14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172400 5* 03Ytebbit 5* (+3182) 10Folat
> 1767726198 93814 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172401&oldid=172399 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+108) 10added external link
> 1767726206 772491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DTM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172402&oldid=170773 5* 03Ytebbit 5* (+21) 10Folat redirect
> 1767726394 359086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172403&oldid=172363 5* 03Ytebbit 5* (+12) 10/* F */
> 1767726690 250123 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03ConfluentDemiurge 5*  10New user account
> 1767727115 976215 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172404&oldid=172374 5* 03ConfluentDemiurge 5* (+202) 10/* Introductions */
> 1767727185 690127 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07~ATH14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172405&oldid=156879 5* 03ConfluentDemiurge 5* (+0) 10/* Implementations */
< 1767727995 351439 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1767728184 819272 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767728233 940883 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767728263 95831 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1767729186 525959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172406&oldid=172125 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+102) 10
< 1767731199 773600 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1767731249 432662 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Candidates for deletion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172407&oldid=170601 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+37) 10
> 1767733801 293206 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172408&oldid=172385 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+728) 10
> 1767733840 569377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172409&oldid=172408 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-18) 10
< 1767734286 350787 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:8c44:2d83:745e:2755 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1767734972 578072 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767735108 129975 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172410&oldid=172340 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-11) 10
< 1767735121 672897 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767735635 353004 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:8c44:2d83:745e:2755 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767735736 779717 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Good Night
< 1767736045 562198 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2742.nat.pool.telekom.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1767736865 155584 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02User:Aadenboy/Countable10]] to [[User:Countable]]: this is at a good position. become real!
> 1767736865 205188 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02User talk:Aadenboy/Countable10]] to [[User talk:Countable]]: this is at a good position. become real!
> 1767736876 997568 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02User:Countable10]] to [[Countable]]: that is the WRONG namespace
> 1767736877 44355 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Aadenboy 5*  10moved [[02User talk:Countable10]] to [[Talk:Countable]]: that is the WRONG namespace
> 1767736981 427182 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172419&oldid=171953 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+425) 10/* speedy delete */ new section
< 1767736990 262728 :pool8!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767737020 919948 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767737021 155551 :pool8!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan NICK :pool
> 1767737049 97006 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User:Countable10]]": redirects created by mistake in an attempt to move a page (and there is no user with this username)
> 1767737049 136914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10deleted "[[02User talk:Countable10]]": Deleted together with the associated page with reason: redirects created by mistake in an attempt to move a page (and there is no user with this username)
> 1767737106 53280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172420&oldid=172415 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+166) 10categories + link to talk page for the moment
> 1767737198 195186 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172421&oldid=172403 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+16) 10/* C */ add [[Countable]]
> 1767737327 437067 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172422&oldid=172286 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+267) 10add [[Countable]]
> 1767737345 447279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/randomuserpage14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172423&oldid=172146 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-28) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/172146|172146]] by [[Special:Contributions/Aadenboy|Aadenboy]] ([[User talk:Aadenboy|talk]])
> 1767737362 203774 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/randomesolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172424&oldid=169947 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+14) 10add [[Countable]]
> 1767737789 403791 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172425&oldid=172404 5* 03Profboady 5* (+338) 10Hi! I am Professor Mark Boady at Drexel. I added my introduction.
> 1767738114 226649 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172426&oldid=172420 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+104) 10add interpreter
< 1767738909 772655 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767738913 798966 :svm!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1767739040 1331 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1767739084 525579 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Finally did something I've always wanted to do, namely reason out one of those multiplication-based bit twiddling things from first principles, rather than looking it up on a website: https://0x0.st/Pono.txt
< 1767739086 416513 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It may not be the best way to accomplish it, but at least it left me feeling accomplished.
< 1767739344 829877 :lynndotpy60937!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 JOIN #esolangs lynndotpy :lynn
< 1767739465 562102 :lynndotpy6093!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1767739465 763781 :lynndotpy60937!~rootcanal@134.122.123.70 NICK :lynndotpy6093
> 1767739477 57749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172427&oldid=172369 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+1) 10/* Speak() */
< 1767739770 411361 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767739902 357604 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767740377 921263 :svm!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767740465 268542 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1767740481 697369 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767740506 206826 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
> 1767740557 326852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Everything Shop14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172428 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+639) 10Created page with "'''Everything Shop''' is an esolang by [[User:yoyolin0409]]. Its distinctive feature is that all the instructions appear to be about buying things from a shop.  ==Instructions==  Purchase   Integer assignment  Purchase  of the <
< 1767741045 206888 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767742046 766261 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: ooh, it's a three-way mingle
< 1767742097 171577 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unfortunately, this is very unlikely to get optimized into PDEP by current compilers
< 1767742105 292170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe if we had one specialised for INTERCAL-style bit-twiddling, it'd be able to figure it out
< 1767742170 707083 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well, fortunately (?) the Go compiler isn't that good at optimizing things in the first place, so it likely wouldn't anyway.
> 1767742202 668425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172429&oldid=172421 5* 03Buckets 5* (+10) 10/* M */
< 1767742222 307007 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :There was a proposal to add very PDEP- and PEXT-oriented functions to the "math/bits" stdlib package -- https://github.com/golang/go/issues/45455 -- but it got declined. :/
> 1767742226 21569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172430&oldid=172311 5* 03Buckets 5* (+9) 10
< 1767742405 172479 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(It's for a 3D Z-order curve for a thing that has 7/6/7-bit X/Y/Z coordinates.)
< 1767743298 162944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust's currently considering a proposal to add what's effectively PEXT/PDEP
< 1767743316 372277 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the libs-API team thought the functions themselves are fine but weren't sure what to call them
< 1767743375 341796 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767743507 363471 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767744880 691570 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767745081 234974 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp
< 1767745081 262251 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp
> 1767745612 289999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172431 5* 03A() 5* (+185) 10Created page with "[[GTPS| Group Theory Programming System]] is a programming language made by [[User: A()]] with the intention of being based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_theory| Group theory]"
> 1767745960 363141 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172432&oldid=172431 5* 03A() 5* (+70) 10
< 1767747877 126088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I remember noticing before that Z-order is basically just the INTERCAL mingle operation
> 1767747892 911904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172433&oldid=172412 5* 03 5* (-5) 10Fixed
< 1767747907 174477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :INTERCAL's select (i.e. PEXT) has come up in a number of contexts recently, in addition to being added as an instruction on x86, but mingle is less commonly used
> 1767748016 705559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy/Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172434&oldid=172414 5* 03 5* (-5) 10Fixed
< 1767749912 895336 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1767751339 986819 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172435&oldid=172432 5* 03A() 5* (+825) 10
< 1767752945 547768 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767755169 621161 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1767756577 207585 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767757791 13487 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767757914 700560 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan JOIN #esolangs PoolloverNathan :nathan
< 1767758959 996602 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1767759018 219373 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
> 1767759872 690175 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172436&oldid=172426 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+44) 10
> 1767759907 75676 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172437&oldid=172422 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+15) 10/* ESOLANGS */ add [[Countable]] to list of favorites
< 1767761278 340936 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1767765794 552174 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C2329.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1767765843 133759 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767766999 191611 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is often said that ASN.1 requires the use of a schema. Whether or not this is true depends on which format you are using; it is true for OER and PER but is not true for BER and DER. DER can be used without a schema (although it can also be used with a schema, which will be helpful if you want to handle data that contains implicit types, default values, etc, since those things are specified by the schema).
< 1767770134 286505 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767770947 5739 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767771842 341572 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767772176 496332 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Now I added another type into ASN.1X, which is called ASN1_SCIENTIFIC. It is like ASN1_REAL but the number of digits (or bits) is considered to be significant, and the canonical form for decimal numbers is different (there must be exactly one digit before the decimal separator, and trailing zeros are allowed and are considered to be significant).
< 1767772202 470803 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d PRIVMSG #esolangs :hello
< 1767774051 545321 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767774828 967723 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Cammy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172438&oldid=170868 5* 03Corbin 5* (+55) 10/* Constants */ Add a constructor for ratios of nats.
< 1767775150 279649 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sleep time.
< 1767776826 998876 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yea korvo, I dont remember you telling me about neckties, but I took your recommendation, and am working on a blog right now
< 1767776933 729264 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d PRIVMSG #esolangs :*neocities
< 1767777535 591103 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767777718 366080 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767777887 340104 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767778650 622320 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767778719 260332 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:e957:bab3:2128:292d QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767778813 307549 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767779549 441845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Book14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172439&oldid=171856 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+23) 10
> 1767779583 346935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yoyolin040914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172440&oldid=172265 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+0) 10
> 1767779636 367858 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yoyolin040914]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172441&oldid=172440 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+21) 10
> 1767779742 412267 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Do something14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172442&oldid=171609 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-36) 10/* Do job */
> 1767780697 268910 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07\14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172443 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+1719) 10Created page with "'''\''' is a version of [[_/]], with a few simple modifications. It's based on an observation that none of the sub replacement patterns could interact with each other. It also uses another syntax. == Syntax / Semantics == A program is a list of "sub replacements", 
> 1767780731 185051 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07/14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172444&oldid=168740 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+26) 10/* examples */
> 1767782917 914124 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07\14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172445&oldid=172443 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-103) 10/* Syntax / Semantics */
> 1767783098 50406 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172446&oldid=172427 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+487) 10
> 1767783111 550008 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172447&oldid=172446 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (+3) 10/* Minsky machine(similar) */
> 1767783185 441339 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Rpg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172448&oldid=172447 5* 03Yoyolin0409 5* (-5) 10/* Minsky machine(similar) */
> 1767783327 155716 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172449&oldid=172406 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+137) 10/* esolangs */
< 1767783370 862251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767785338 344692 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, interesting coincidence. In Go 1.26, they're actually planning to introduce a new standard library component to expose architecture-specific SIMD operations, kind of like how it works in C with intrinsics. But the current version of the package -- https://pkg.go.dev/simd/archsimd@go1.26rc1 -- seems to focus exclusively on actual SIMD stuff, and doesn't have BMI2 (PDEP/PEXT).
< 1767787535 340144 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767787660 622110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :meanwhile Rust already has the intrinsics, but is planning to add platform-independent pdep/pext, which is interesting with respect to how well the fallback will be optimised
< 1767787676 664800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you almost want an INTERCAL-style optimiser at that point
< 1767787703 386618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but nightly only?
> 1767787709 920202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172450&oldid=172449 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+82) 10
< 1767787752 329647 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the intrinsics are stable but platform-specific, I think: the platform-independent stuff is very new and still nightly-only
< 1767787945 4770 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1767787964 269742 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767787969 411852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh. I guess I wasn't looking in the right place when I was looking for this: https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/core/arch/x86_64/fn._pdep_u64.html
< 1767788095 913337 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I didn't try *too* hard to find the intrinsic; https://paste.debian.net/hidden/3755060c isn't *too* terrible)
< 1767788242 983710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :same speed too :)
< 1767788317 940437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so thanks for making me look harder
< 1767788384 821873 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there was a bit of a discussion about Rust documentation file sizes on the Rust internals forum recently, and the documentation for core::arch::x86_64 was mentioned
< 1767788419 834452 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so I had the appropriate location in medium-term memory already
< 1767788531 923417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/iter/trait.Iterator.html is another large ones
< 1767788536 913309 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi *
> 1767788547 946976 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172451&oldid=172425 5* 03HerobrineMWB 5* (+221) 10/* Introductions */
> 1767789584 654197 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172452&oldid=172450 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+23) 10/* ppl i like and dont like */
> 1767790113 648543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172453&oldid=171777 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+223) 10
< 1767791317 347670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1767792177 758399 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767793260 256851 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sadly you can't inline assembly in Go, and functions written entirely in assembler (which you can have) are limited to the much less performant (but stable) "ABI0" calling convention (whereas compiler-generated code can use the faster but unstable "ABIInternal"), and never get inlined, so the "just do it yourself" approach is much less feasible in terms of performance.
> 1767796415 541428 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Input hello world or else:14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172454 5* 03 5* (+541) 10Created page with "I came here in 14 redirects. [[User:|mario]][[User talk:|maker]] 1767799272 464952 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unspoken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172461&oldid=172460 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-18) 10
> 1767799908 652318 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AddByteJump14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172462 5* 03Timm 5* (+215) 10Created page with " A B C do  A* =+ B*  jump C  (?) is actual value
 -? is negation
 -(?) you get it
 (its low-level)
 -1 in A make output, B input and C make halt
 -2 has 1 always
 -3 has -1 always
 {{Made|Timm}}"
< 1767799960 685658 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1767799984 241271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Timm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172463&oldid=171289 5* 03Timm 5* (+19) 10
< 1767801774 328523 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767802532 339026 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :riscv has mingle but not select, somewhat odd (early bitmanip drafts had both but "we need zip for 32-bit keccak" was somehow judged as a more real use case than anything presented for pext)
< 1767803099 722417 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :strange to define a SIMD interface in 2026 that doesn't have first-class support for scalable types
< 1767803763 942666 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :scalable vectors are, oddly, quite hard to handle at the programming language level
< 1767803787 410481 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :especially if you try to fit them into the same sort of programming language API as fixed-length vectors
< 1767803832 539374 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the intention of the scalable vector machine code instructions is that you write software that doesn't care about the vector length, and yet most existing explicit-vectorisation APIs expect it to be cared about by the software rather than the compiler
< 1767803905 512042 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I really don't like the current state of vectorisation, autovectorisation is too inconsistent (both in terms of whether it happens and in terms of whether the result makes sense or not) and manual vectorization is too manual
> 1767804045 968764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bliss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172464&oldid=171156 5* 03H33T33 5* (+4) 10
> 1767804176 792533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bliss14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172465&oldid=172464 5* 03H33T33 5* (+25) 10
> 1767804446 694199 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Emulao 5*  10New user account
> 1767807956 67809 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172466&oldid=166807 5* 03H33T33 5* (+717) 10
< 1767808055 443580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do mostly like the current state of SIMD code. We write code using SIMD primitives that compilers can directly emit as instructions, while the compilers figure out register allocation and scheduling and similar. Vector scaling is limited, it exists only as much that you can write code assuming 64 byte wide vectors, some processors will run the instructions directly but with some or all operations on 
< 1767808061 689034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :32 byte wide execution units, and the compiler can recompile the code emulating the 64 byte wide operations with 32 byte wide instructions which is not optimal but at least works. 
< 1767808102 530986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are a few details that I don't like of course, but this mostly works well. Obviously there's a big delay between when the CPU instruction sets are designed and when most software adapts them, but that's fine, anything else would be premature optimization anyway.
< 1767808127 440187 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least on x86, 64→32 compiling is difficult because only the AVX-512 instructions support 64-byte vectors, but they also support other features like writemasks that can't be compiled down to AVX2
< 1767808159 110050 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767808434 335914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not very fond of masking and that part of the design of AVX2. It's kind of an inefficient use of CPU resources, with the completely separate mask registers and instructions for them instead of just using normal registers as masks with bitwise operations like we're doing in AVX2. 
< 1767808466 43893 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I can certainly see an argument for, e.g., using r8…r15 as mask registers
< 1767808517 534150 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but Intel seem to have decided recently that they still don't have enough registers
< 1767808809 263366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(who needs context switches anyway)
< 1767808856 272382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you know, that thing where you routinely save all registers and restore another set of values from memory)
< 1767808881 566732 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :avx-512 has had 32 architectural vector registers from the beginning
< 1767808887 411523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: right
< 1767808888 105272 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :not dependent on APX
< 1767808914 491930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Intel announced that they were going to add new GPRs as well, though (although it doesn't seem to have hit the instruction set docs yet, so maybe it's not actually available for sale at the moment)
< 1767808916 213229 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the mask registers are much smaller than the vector registers, why engage a 512-bit data path if you only need one bit per element?
< 1767808946 21809 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I think b_jonas is arguing that the masks should have been taken from GPRs rather than from their own register type
< 1767808959 459003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're exactly the right size (64 bits)
< 1767808963 262760 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: no
< 1767808967 510797 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe this is futureproofing for AVX-1024?
< 1767808980 879375 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm arguing that we should be using the XMM/YMM/ZMM registers for masks
< 1767809010 148549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(though there is one instruction to transfer them to a GPR, useful for condition testing in strlen and similar)
< 1767809020 318784 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the degree of coupling between the integer and vector (hardware) scheduling that implies would be a nightmare
< 1767809062 956274 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"maybe this is futureproofing for AVX-1024" => the futureproofing was that AVX512W already had instructions for 64-bit mask registers even though only AVX512B needs them
< 1767809077 3175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/AVX512W/AVX512D/
< 1767809077 376344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :> succ 'Z'
< 1767809078 414968 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : '['
< 1767809109 953385 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there won't be an AVX1024, AVX is stopping here because cache lines are 64 bytes wide
< 1767809149 288871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want wider, there's AMX (Advanced matrix extensions) with the "tile registers"
< 1767809157 812453 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically for matrix multiplication
< 1767809435 764720 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the 3-operand 32-register integer ISA is an interesting development, much more similar to the others and A64 in particular, I think that leaves s390x as the most relevant 16-integer-register ISA?  the high-word facility can do some similar things but it's equally weird as the newest implementation of subregisters
< 1767809525 204750 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: 64-byte cache lines isn't a fundamental rule, though, right? that one could be changed
< 1767809591 459090 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but they are hard to change and would affect a lot of other things. it might reduce the performance of non-vector programs. 
< 1767809647 781144 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :glad to see that with APX, the instruction encoding still doesn't make any sense :-D
< 1767809817 711989 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767810218 831001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder what the performance gain would be like if x86-64 had a sensible instruction encoding (the main advantage would be in saving L1c cache, and I'm not sure to what extent that matters) – my guess is that it would be small
< 1767810271 765476 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :surely that would depend on the segment
< 1767810383 674926 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the big cores do fairly involved pre-decoding to a "µop cache" (beware that µop is a loaded term and the things in the cache aren't necessarily what might be called a µop in any other context)... but if you're trying to achieve >6 IPC you need a trace cache _anyway_ because there are too many taken branches
< 1767810474 314026 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I think the trace/loop/µop caches probably aren't relevant to this, which is why L1c is the first relevant layer
< 1767810510 635896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, a sensible encoding would likely be easier to decode, meaning you could get more encoding parallelism or maybe a shorter pipeline, and both of those would give performance gains in certain contexts
< 1767810617 721222 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(by "aren't relevant" I mean that although the caches are relevant, changing the instruction format wouldn't make their performance any better or worse, so it's other parts of the processor we have to look at in order to gauge the impact)
< 1767810727 622666 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think I1$ mostly cares about size, and "how much does size matter" is ... intensely debated
< 1767810819 396733 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :indeed, I have seen a lot of plausible arguments in both directions but don't know what to conclude from them, and benching this is almost impossible due to alignment effects
< 1767810828 336722 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* benchmarking
< 1767810846 766264 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so although in theory there should be an objective answer, it is difficult to determine what it is
< 1767811011 207017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
> 1767811240 261102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:FluixMakesEsolangs/Secret14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172467 5* 03FluixMakesEsolangs 5* (+241) 10SHHHH SEECCREEEETTT
> 1767811625 618887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unspoken14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172468&oldid=172461 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+43) 10/* Encoding */
> 1767812444 866634 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs/Secret14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172469 5* 03 5* (+25) 10Created page with "how do i spoil people >:)"
> 1767812509 647660 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:202614]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172470 5* 03 5* (+43) 10Created page with "2026 is equivalnet to Python for this year."
< 1767812703 811272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I'm nto sure it would still count as x86 if you ripped out the current instruction encoding entirely. There were a few changes made when 64-bit mode was introduced, some of the old encodings are invalid in 64-bit mode to free up encoding space.
< 1767812721 191071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But if you just replace the entire encoding then you get a new architecture.
< 1767812755 430875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I think ARM has like four different instruction encodings by now
< 1767812917 425145 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :3 main ones?  I don't think Streaming SVE Mode counts
> 1767812941 283042 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172471 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1051) 10Created page with "Hi! Welcome to the wiki. I know you've been here for a while, but it seems that I'm the first person to greet you. '''You haven't done anything wrong''' but I wanted to let you know a few things:  * Please read [[esolang:policy]] if you haven't alrea
< 1767814445 656640 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :could be. I'm not too familiar with ARM, I'm mostly just looking at x86_64 all the time.
< 1767814531 354071 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think «a new architecture» means different things to different audiences
< 1767814593 819882 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767814648 856260 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767814659 964227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, I mean you could have something like x86_16 vs x86_32 protected mode where the same program can far jump between the two and share the same registers and call functions with arguments in registers and stack, in which case it wouldn't be an entirely separate architecture
< 1767814672 119729 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1767814708 111006 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :binary compatible, just link your new code together with the old code and make the processor dynamically switch decoding mode between them using a flag register
< 1767814752 339503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is kind of what we have between AVX and AVX2
< 1767814884 578273 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ia64 could dynamically switch decoding mode and had switch instructions (br.ia32 / JMPE)... not quite as seamless as 386 call gates
< 1767814931 554188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think 386 doesn't even need call gates to jump between 32-bit and 16-bit user-mode code, just different code segments
< 1767814949 264922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :call gates are for jumping to kernel mode or similar
> 1767818757 994764 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07A-SCP-M14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172472&oldid=125586 5* 03Scp-999 5* (+267) 10Added JMod to improve containment protocol
< 1767819030 851109 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
< 1767819167 552639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767819232 450160 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ARM has a scheme in which two of the encodings can coexist based on whether the instruction pointer is odd or even
< 1767819236 63130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(because both of them are aligned to 2)
< 1767819265 952002 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the only existing programs that this would break would be those that assumed function pointers were always even
< 1767819303 470004 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the IP effectively points to the second byte of the instruction rather than the first in the newer encoding, so the instructions stay aligned – you can also think of it as the IP being low-bit-tagged and I think that's how it's documented)
> 1767819348 642673 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clowder14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172473 5* 03Profboady 5* (+12434) 10Submit first draft of language specification for Clowder and Quantum Assembly Language.
< 1767819364 266343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, that works. The other scheme that you can do is make sure that a small part of the instruction encoding overlaps so that you can write a short polyglot that switches into the correct instruction set.
< 1767819456 609804 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess another approach would be to reserve a fraction of a bit in the page tables to specify the encoding when executing from that page (it's less than a bit of information because you can use it for something else if the NX bit is set)
> 1767819462 922159 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172474&oldid=172429 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10/* U */
> 1767819472 898753 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172475&oldid=172474 5* 03Profboady 5* (+14) 10I added my language clowder to the main list.
> 1767819501 225842 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172476&oldid=172430 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1767819510 633430 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mot14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172477 5* 03Buckets 5* (+578) 10Created page with "Mot is an Esoteric programming language Created by [[User:Buckets]] In 2020.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | > || Output the Current number. |- | @ || Skip the next Command if The value = 0. |- | ? || Reset this line. |- | { || Goto the Next {. |- | 
< 1767819511 976659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86_16 vs x86_32 protected mode does something like that but with the segment descriptor instead of the page table 
> 1767819520 959003 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Unsidue14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172478 5* 03Buckets 5* (+855) 10Created page with "Unsidue is an Esoteric Programming language created By [[User:Buckets]] in 2021.  {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | [m] || Modulo the current Number by m, if there's Residue, Move That many Times forward of A # such As a residue Of 2 would Goto the 
< 1767819534 466380 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :less of a scheme and more of an original sin
< 1767819540 17122 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now I'm reminded of the way that Linux can emulate the system call ABIs of various old UNIXes, in order to run some of their executables without recompiling
> 1767819577 241421 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Profboady14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172479 5* 03Profboady 5* (+124) 10Created page with "I am Mark Boady, a computer science professor who works at Drexel University. More about me at [https://boady.net boady.net]"
< 1767819577 589448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe, that would be funny, making the writable bit of the page to mean an alternate instruction set, if you had previously forbidden the same page table entry to have both executable and writable (you could still write through a different page aliased to the same physical addres)
< 1767819580 113615 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the oldest arm was limited to 26-bit address space because they decided "we don't need a saved PSR, we can just use the spare bits in the exception link register" 
< 1767819608 965459 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :they moved most of the flags out but "thumb/arm mode is bit 0 in LR" feels like a relic of that paradigm
< 1767819646 303000 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess a link register inherently has the same encoding as the instruction pointer, so that makes sense
< 1767819704 526725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: "emulate the system call ABIs of various old UNIXes" => don't they have like three different system call ABIs for x86_32, plus two x86_64 ABIs, plus windows system calls through Wine derivatives, plus FreeBSD system calls if it's a FreeBSD kernel?
< 1767819732 445349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :possibly multiple different Windows system call ABIs at the same time
< 1767819741 62088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x32 (the less commonly used x86-64 ABI) is weird
< 1767819761 926080 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :none of the windows or freebsd stuff is in linux proper, whereas mips linux _does_ pretend to be an irix kernel under certain conditons
< 1767819775 624264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :only I think you can't really mix x86_64 and x86_32 code in the same unix process, so that limits how many of the ABIs are active at the same time
< 1767819788 163170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: no, but the Linux ABI is in FreeBSD kernels
< 1767819788 411978 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wine isn't built into the kernel as far as I know
< 1767819788 438717 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I guess it technically could be!
< 1767819790 609037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC most BSDs don't have a stable kernel interface, you have to go via libc
< 1767819808 350305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: not the kernel, but the kernel allows Wine to catch the Windows syscall abi in userspace, right?
< 1767819822 95356 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I believe "page table bit to select instruction encoding" is how powerpc vle works
< 1767819849 878794 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :also enables BTI on arm and epc on ia64 but those are less dramatic
< 1767819859 489956 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: thinking about that that's probably what PTRACE_SYSEMU is for
> 1767819919 374271 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172480&oldid=172453 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+0) 10
< 1767819925 911552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"run this progam until the next system call, then skip the system call" doesn't have an obvious purpose for native executables, but it would be helpful on an executable for a different OS
< 1767819954 390316 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :user mode linux
< 1767819966 349664 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that does have an obvious use for debugging and reverse-engineering a program if it may call system calls not through a libc that you're familiar with
< 1767819977 617251 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, on Windows the standard way to make system calls is to dynamically link against a few system-provided shared libraries that make them for you, so all this time I assumed that Wine worked just by providing Linux implementations of the libraries
< 1767819983 100412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can even examine the system calls that it makes
< 1767819986 800183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that what strace does?
< 1767820005 123181 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think wine mostly works at the ntdll level, the ring0-ring3 ABI changes between windows builds anyway
< 1767820005 438289 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: there's a variant of that which *doesn't* skip the system call, that's what strace uses
< 1767820036 812445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because strace still wants the system calls to happen, it just wants to observe them
< 1767820038 135179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, but for a debugger it can still make sense to examine the system call before it decides to execute it or not or possibly execute a modified or emulated version. 
< 1767820052 226845 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can do that even with the version that doesn't skip by default
< 1767820064 582609 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you have to modify the program's registers to change the system call number
< 1767820069 851762 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :wine _does_ provide linux implementations of the libraries, you can link Windows C code directly against them and bypass the EXE loader (winelib)
< 1767820077 62255 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it halts on entry to the system call, and optionally on exit too)
< 1767820118 705113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there's a system call number that's guaranteed to do nothing, probably -1
< 1767820173 532472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :29 for pause, just send a SIGCONT?
< 1767820213 638951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or maybe modify the system call to time(0) 
< 1767820238 972761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so 13 with the first argument a nullptr
< 1767820240 745402 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd do NR_getpid if there isn't a dedicated skip
< 1767820259 428277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: that works too, yes
< 1767820342 138273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can give arguments to many syscalls to make them a noop, sometimes with an error
< 1767820373 293359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :even just a read with file descriptor 0 could wrok
< 1767820386 595106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, sorry, read with file descriptor -1
< 1767820467 985470 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :register handling across ptrace stops is a big mess and I'm not confident in my understanding of it
< 1767820823 821746 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I *used* to know how it worked, but haven't looked into it for ages and have forgotten many of the details
< 1767820885 466376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow, this program gets silly even in the header file includes, it needs to include both struct stat from  and struct stat from , which are different structures with the same name
< 1767820895 501669 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767821049 53879 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is the classic "I want to replace one system call with two, so I will rewind the IP two bytes so that the program hits the same system call instruction again"
< 1767821073 32991 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(both syscall and int 0x80 are two bytes long and I was doing this on x86/x86-64)
< 1767821155 214180 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :things which also happen with SA_RESTART
< 1767821215 434158 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: OK, so the way it works on x86(-64) is that when you request the registers from the process, there are *two* ?ax registers: the orig_ one contains the system call number, the one with the plain name contains the system call return value (which is -ENOSYS at the point in the kernel at which the system call gets interrupted)
< 1767821228 567271 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and changing them on system call entry will change the kernel's view of them too
< 1767821332 487787 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to disable system calls I just used an arbitrary unlikely number and then got ENOSYS back
< 1767821360 392228 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: aren't there like four different stat system calls with different types for historical reasons, but only on x86_32, and all but the last one got eliminated on x86_64?
< 1767821397 995390 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it wouldn't surprise me, it's very common for system calls to be near-duplicated with a different ABI
< 1767821414 853801 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the stat structure has changed several times when people decided that no, 32-bit ints aren't enough for file sizes
< 1767821418 265298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x86 has uname, olduname and oldolduname system calls
< 1767821446 115522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't looked into the details, I just had gdb magically do function calls in the debugged process for me
< 1767821468 683719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and even that was many years ago; these days I only do printf debugging, putting debugging code right into my program without any special library or debugger
< 1767821516 347782 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :most recently time_t but stat handling is a bit odd there - on the kernel side plain stat was deprecated instead of being extended so you have to migrate to statx for Y2038
< 1767821535 682883 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :but statx is not POSIX so the libcs invented a 64-bit-time struct stat that doesn't exist in the kernel
< 1767821703 198766 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dislike the way system calls are normally done through libc – it seems preferable to me to have two libraries, one which just provides a platform-agnostic way to do things that only the kernel can do, and one which is entirely portable (maybe calling into the first library)
< 1767821708 67293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it gets funny, leads to situations where you have one header file that calls the system calls oldoldstat, oldstat, stat, stat64; then another header files that calls them oldstat, stat, newstat, stat64; then a third that only lets you access the last two and calls them stat and stat64 but makes stat an alias to stat64 depending on what macros are set
> 1767821747 39968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172481&oldid=172435 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10
< 1767821772 942278 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way, non-C languages wouldn't have to depend on C baggage like printf and FILE* buffering, and the OS-portable and non-OS-portable parts of the C library seem easier to maintain separately in order to reduce duplication of effort between platforms
> 1767821779 272280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172482&oldid=172481 5* 03A() 5* (+30) 10/* A+B */
< 1767821809 501352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sure, but libc does too many things partly for historical reasons, partly so that system calls can set errno which is a macro that emulates a thread-specific variable but from before C had first-class thread-specific variables or something like that
< 1767821847 472480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think threads even existed in the early days of errno, it was just a global
< 1767821861 490493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then it had to be made thread-local for correctness reasons when threads were invented
< 1767821864 121082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, errno is very old
< 1767821948 19685 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :people always use printf as the example but I think the actually painful parts wouldn't be solved by splitting the library
< 1767821991 667150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :printf is the part that I want to have even in rust, because the floating point formatting bit is really hard to implement correctly and efficiently
> 1767822058 454258 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Error quine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172483&oldid=167414 5* 03Photostar 5* (+181) 10
< 1767822060 878551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I don't think it's too big a deal that libc is as big as it is. You don't have to use all of it, and the parts that you don't use aren't a big expense.
< 1767822066 339180 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: the most painful to me is actually things like gethostbyname – because on glibc those are implemented using shared-library dependencies that can't be statically linked, meaning that you can't make a system call without linking in the whole dynamic linking infrastructure
< 1767822115 842365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but if you don't want to then you don't have to use those parts.
< 1767822121 667383 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's totally fine to have a nice self-contained portable sprintf library, but why does it have to come with the OS?
< 1767822140 770143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the mere fact that it exists, whether or not you use it, causes the problem
< 1767822142 947186 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :on a reasonable platform we'd have some form of RPC dependency injection for that
< 1767822154 905138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it has to come with the OS so that my RAM isn't full with ten different libcs, but only one libc mmapped in every process
< 1767822189 301238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's one thing that Debian does well, they're actively working on programs sharing just one copy of each library, not just libc
< 1767822196 469394 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: well this is the major argument for shared libraries in general
< 1767822209 740283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I want shared libraries for everything. I don't like static libraries.
> 1767822237 325256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172484&oldid=172482 5* 03A() 5* (+238) 10
< 1767822274 771391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean, libc in particular
< 1767822289 507606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, there will always be some code duplication, the sharing won't be perfect, but I want to tend towards sharing. that also helps make sure that when I update my system packages to fix a security bug then it's fixed in all programs, that I'm not running programs with their own obsolete and never updated copy of a library that's full of security holes.
< 1767822309 329339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, shared libc too, and ideally shared libraries for rust
> 1767822337 469703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172485&oldid=172484 5* 03A() 5* (+33) 10
< 1767822392 588618 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've been considering writing a platform (that runs alongside regular x86-64 executables on the same Linux kernel but isn't ABI-compatible with them) for which the only things you can dynamically link are the system call library, the allocators (which have to be platform-provided for some reason I can't remember right now but I think it involves address space), and major language-support libraries like libc
< 1767822416 832091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why would you limit what you can dynamically link?
< 1767822420 545966 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :using more shared libraries than that, in practice, doesn't seem to help in practice on anything other than Debian-like "all these versions work with all those version" curate systems
< 1767822424 977769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* curated
< 1767822447 101471 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if install a program from outside the repositories, it normally comes with its own copies of the system's shared libraries and links to those except on the system
< 1767822468 568781 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :package formats like Snap and Flatpak come with all the shared libraries bundled, they don't use the system's
< 1767822478 608627 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* links to those instead of those on the system
< 1767822492 427638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and I don't like those package formats, partly for the reasons that I explained above. 
< 1767822498 61424 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does that work with libGL?
< 1767822525 90991 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of people/companies run their programs in containers, and have to put separate shared libraries into them (which could in theory be bind-mounted but in practice I think they're almost always container-specific)
> 1767822542 563700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Confusion14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172486&oldid=168431 5* 03Mun Hammer 5* (+21) 10shouldn't be first person
> 1767822562 100368 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172487&oldid=172485 5* 03A() 5* (+14) 10
< 1767822602 610364 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I'm not sure, I'm not familiar with how that works internally
< 1767822632 445954 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(but I searched my directories of unpackaged software and didn't find any libGL, but I did find several copies of libGLEW)
< 1767822785 11294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :communication with GPUs and windowing systems might in practice be the same sort of problem as communication with kernels
< 1767822826 812347 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: in any case, I think the reason most people don't share shared libraries is that it's too much effort to try to keep the programs compatible with them
< 1767822840 685692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure
< 1767822865 169775 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Debian goes to a lot of effort in testing "this version of this program works with that version of that library" but outside a distro's package manager it's almost impossible
< 1767822871 928516 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :most libraries aren't designed to have a long-term-stable ABI
< 1767822977 472463 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my personal reason to want to limit the number of shared libraries is that it allows you to give them fixed load addresses relative to each other and the program that links to them, making the dynamic linking step trivial – you lose a little ASLR power but ASLR is pretty easy to bypass anyway nowadays, and gain security from not having dynamic-linker-ish things happening in your executable at all
< 1767822997 571225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see!
< 1767823000 269744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many exploits that exploit parts of the memory map that only exist due to the dynamic linker
< 1767823004 491965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you want fixed addresses
< 1767823059 790303 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I *would* allow dlopen, but not for providing functions to call or be called directly, you would have to use a dlsym equivalent in order to get function pointers at runtime (meaning that no dynamic linking step would be needed there either)
< 1767823110 790022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh no, I think I've hit a really stupid ambiguity in English – "providing a function to call" could be "providing a function that you can call" or "providing a function that does calling"
< 1767823182 129315 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does the dlopened image allocate memory, make system calls, etc?
< 1767823212 757900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: does that mean you wouldn't allow dispatching between different versions of a library at dynamic link time without function pointers that have a runtime cost each time you call the function?
< 1767823258 542077 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :all calls between dynamic libraries are done via function pointers at the ISA level, PLT/GOT
< 1767823266 551410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: I was considering a few different plans for that, ideally I'd like the dlopened images to use fixed offsets for that too but that doesn't work if you dlopen more than one library at a time, unless you double-map the system call library
< 1767823290 370910 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least that you ensure you don't dlopen two images with the same offset
< 1767823311 480987 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wouldn't consider double-mapping a problem but what if the dlopened image has a link-time dependency on a different version of the system call library?
< 1767823316 500107 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the main purpose of dlopen is for providing plugins and the like, if those are tied to the executable then avoiding offset clashes should be a solvable problem
< 1767823342 512671 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: this is why I would want the system call library to be as small as possible, it would make it easier to keep the ABI stable
< 1767823362 420363 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you created a new version of a function you would have to leave the old one around
< 1767823433 10240 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: at dynamic link time, indeed – for some of those problems you can solve them at static link time instead and just generate multiple executables, but there are probably some cases that wouldn't solve
< 1767823449 29508 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although, you have function pointer cost *anyway* in the usual current way of doing things)
< 1767823482 263863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: my problem is that if I'm forced to use dlsym then the burden of type safety for the function calls is always on me. I'm find with allowing that for some cases, and it's almost always necessary when linking compilation units cross-language or with cyclic dependencies, but sometimes I just want the simple way when I set a dynamic library crate dependency at runtime and the rust/haskell compiler 
< 1767823488 268731 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ensures at compile time that I'm doing typesafe calls across crates.
< 1767823511 41025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/find with/fine with/
< 1767823523 51862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I would encourage people to statically link in that situation
< 1767823550 32547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1767823553 731821 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is worth noting that at least the current Rust compiler is not appropriate for this situation, it will check that the types match at the source level, but does not compile them consistently at the binary level
< 1767823581 561591 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can have types that match in the source code but go wrong when the binaries communicate
< 1767823618 278504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you can probably only do that if you always compile the crates together and with the same options, at which point you might as well link them statically 
< 1767823710 223154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hopefully future versions of rustc will at least be able to check the typesafety at binary level and give an error when something is incompatible, even if they can't solve that
< 1767823735 485526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doing that on a *dynamic* link would be… interesting
< 1767823754 884550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you're making a reasonable case for why static linking is better *in practice*, even if dynamic linking is what I want in some idealized world
< 1767823760 185528 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it isn't theoretically impossible, but I don't know whether you'd implement it in the dynamic link or in the implementation of / wrapper around dlopen
< 1767823764 95908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* in the dynamic linker
< 1767823787 780980 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :why? you just mangle the full type description (or at least a cryptographic hash of it) into the dyanmically linked symbol names
< 1767823801 585918 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I didn't even think of that
< 1767823816 697334 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least as much of the type description as matters for the ABI that is
< 1767823820 835228 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, mangling the ABI (as opposed to type name) would work
< 1767823873 865273 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that technique might be useful for the typed-asm thing I've been thinking about, it'd let you do the type checking before the linker and yet still use a regular linker to link the resulting files together
< 1767823907 318675 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by encoding the type assumptions into the name of everything that's linked across compilation units, so if the types don't match, the link fails
< 1767823915 532600 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…isn't this just "Hungarian notation for linkers"?
< 1767823981 142996 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :rust _does_ mangle cryptographic* hashes into dynamically linked symbol names, it's weird that it doesn't include enough information to catch memory safety issues
< 1767824038 985402 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Rust name mangling situation is complicated, and I'm not sure I fully understand it
< 1767824051 751868 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(* not long enough to be collision-safe, but the system can't protect against attacker-controlled binaries anyway)
< 1767824094 965468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there has been a lot of discussion about whether the hashes used by TypeId are even strong enough to be safe against *accidental* collisions
< 1767824114 194022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the symbol name hashes are different, I think (but might be using the same algorithm?)
< 1767824114 250377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have vague plans for a C interpreter that helps run untrusted code, with stronger guarantees about undefined behavior than is usual for most architectures, and that would always know the type of functions modulo compatibility. I'll probably never actually do that project. Obviously you can still get a function call incompatible at a higher semantics level, which is why it's good practice for the 
< 1767824120 253402 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :programmer to rename a function whenever its semantics changes, and possibly provide wrappers with the old name. I had series of such functions in code for my previous job.
< 1767824129 680500 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm on that thread)
< 1767824147 766263 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, Rust's very slowly moving towards "v0 mangling" (which is a weird name to give the second major version of your mangling scheme), and I think that doesn't use hashes at all
< 1767824212 155440 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :semi-recently they upstreamed demanglers for v0 mangling into a lot of unusual places, including the Linux kernel repository (but I think it was upstreamed into a userspace executable that's part of it, rather than the kernel source)
> 1767824216 974986 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172488&oldid=170626 5* 03A() 5* (+255) 10/* Proposed category: Data structures */
< 1767824226 985531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'd probably save the whole type description, not just a hash, though a hash may also be there for quick comparison.
< 1767824266 36230 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the v0 mangling encode enough information to enforce memory safety at link time and how large is it?
< 1767824289 326199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, you want to be able to remote debug a virtualized kernel instance, and the debugger (eg. gdb) should know about mangled names in that case.
< 1767824324 849713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not big on interactive debuggers, but if you're developping the linux kernel or something else that works with hardware then it's indispensible. 
< 1767824330 343609 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if symbol tables had slightly more structure than just strings we could make them smaller and have much faster bulk lookup)
> 1767824339 739665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172489&oldid=172487 5* 03A() 5* (+19) 10
< 1767824420 156782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : does the v0 mangling encode enough information to enforce memory safety at link time and how large is it? ← it won't catch situations where you compile against one version of a crate and link against a different version in which types have the same name but are defined differently
< 1767824469 786625 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :(don't think about dlsym.  if you're loading library A which has N undefined symbols and library B has M defined symbols, that is a JOIN)
< 1767824498 984819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the format does aim to optimize size subject to a few other constraints, the ones which are in the biggest tension are probably "can demangle to produce a human-readable type name containing all relevant information" and "computationally inexpensive to encode/decode"
< 1767824558 765110 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/symbol-mangling/v0.html seems to be the current spec
< 1767824573 420679 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what I'd like is that when a new rustc version changes ABI and you link code compiled with different rustc versions, possibly compiled with different options, then you can't accidentally get a silent ABI mismatch from that, but you get an error at dynamic link time. 
< 1767824592 350484 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if ELF symbols were represented as a DAG you could have all that information without repetition or slowing down links
< 1767824605 937689 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think that's a reasonable thing to want
< 1767824652 747658 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :repr(Rust) is "unstable" but how many times has it actually changed since 1.0?
< 1767824679 4436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could also catch some accidental ABI mismatches that are a fault of the person who writes the code. you can't catch all of these because the programmer can just cause deliberate UB with unsafe code, but it could catch some mistakes.
< 1767824681 609916 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:3110:dc2b:d7bb:a210 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767824688 370484 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: quite a lot I think, mostly with respect to enums
< 1767824723 725376 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the changes are spec changes, though, I think
< 1767824737 36033 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in, they're fully binary compatible both ways, just the guarantees changed
< 1767824774 966879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the current solution is to just make the cross-crates ABIs a stable C ABI as if you were linking code from another language, with a thin source code wrapper on one side of the ABI boundary that contains the type same as a C header file would in C or C++
< 1767824790 443933 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's an unstable option that randomizes field order in repr(Rust) structs, possibly subject to not having to introduce extra padding
< 1767824797 613337 :molson__!~molson@24-124-54-137-dynamic.midco.net JOIN #esolangs molson :realname
< 1767824798 737721 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :with that option, repr(Rust) changes every compile
< 1767824802 757810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I think this isn't an unreasonable solution exactly because that's what you want to be able to do to link between languages, such as to link between C++ and rust
< 1767824822 499702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so this should always be supported, but there could be more optimized easy cases in addition to this
< 1767824822 877631 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Night
< 1767824845 951125 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right, Rust linking to itself via a C ABI is the recommended (and only reasonable corrrect) way to do it atm
< 1767824861 288989 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :night APic
< 1767824880 738249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this isn't just Rust, you can do this in Haskell too, it's just harder with Haskell because it's harder to write C ABIs that match the Haskell code well
< 1767824900 407775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or for linking a C++ library into perl or python
< 1767824954 683354 :molson_!~molson@2605-4A80-2100-2E10-545D-F23A-70BD-B668-dynamic.midco.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1767824986 625884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or linking C++ code with rust code, which is the most practically relevant case for me
> 1767827502 473685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172490&oldid=172488 5* 03Corbin 5* (+459) 10/* Proposed category: Data structures */
> 1767827546 147022 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172491&oldid=172490 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1) 10/* Proposed category: Data structures */ Fix fragment.
< 1767827745 146975 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that "run this progam until the next system call, then skip the system call" can be useful for native programs, if you can change the effect of system calls by doing something else instead, although the way that such a thing works in Linux is perhaps not as well, due to many things including there are a lot of system calls.
< 1767827811 487239 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :My idea of a operating system design though would have the suggested way for a system call to do nothing would be "wait for all objects in a empty set to be ready", and the usual way to terminate a program is "wait for any object in a empty set of objects to be ready".
< 1767828209 204367 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1767829575 948836 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172492&oldid=172318 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+2) 10fixed mistake in first bad example
< 1767830413 814852 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767830421 361154 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767830572 108667 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I just came to a sudden realisation about Rust, and wanted to write it down somewhere before I forgot it, and I guess #esoteric will do: an aligned/nonnull raw pointer to T is basically just an &UnsafeCell whose lifetime isn't tracked
< 1767830619 747637 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's already a special-case rule that says an &UnsafeCell can exist even if the inside of the cell doesn't contain valid data, and I think this is where it comes from
< 1767830777 591552 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this fits in with an observation I had a while ago (but didn't post), that when working with raw pointers in Rust they seem to want to be created by doing something to a mutable reference – &mut T and &mut UnsafeCell are equivalent (safely interconvertable either way using UnsafeCell::from_mut and UnsafeCell::get_mut), then you pirate the &mut UnsafeCell to get an &UnsafeCell
< 1767830866 740701 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually, you can create raw pointers to uninitalized memory too, so maybe an aligned/nonnull raw pointer is &'unsafe UnsafeCell>
< 1767830909 224189 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :('unsafe isn't actual Rust syntax but it's a fairly well-known proposal at this point)
< 1767830939 51156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I guess this is the exact opposite of rubber-ducking, instead of asking questions into the void to help me understand something, I'm making statements into the void to help me express something
< 1767831174 535799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: you aren't allowed to have an &UnsafeCell point to the same address as an &mut UnsafeCell unless you reborrowed from the latter, but you can have a raw pointer point to the same address as the &mut UnsafeCell, so I don't think they're the same
< 1767831234 710429 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so the trick here is: if your raw pointers can only be created by pirating the &mut UnsafeCell, they're all derived from a share of that mutable borrow and so they're allowed
< 1767831259 130839 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in fact, I think the original &mut UnsafeCell is what a provenance is
< 1767831316 831298 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you offset them out of bounds you can't read or write through them until they're back in bounds
< 1767831338 543888 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :this seems to me kind of a narrow view of raw pointers
< 1767831350 128946 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so even if they're matching the address of some other &mut it's OK, as you need the read or write to break the rules
< 1767831353 903134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's certainly one thing you can use raw pointers too, but surely there are others
> 1767831425 892156 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172493&oldid=172489 5* 03A() 5* (-32) 10
< 1767831428 990370 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :under the current rules there are "raw pointers to memory outside the Rust virtual machine", but that's one of the special cases I've been actively working on trying to combine into the general case
< 1767831469 202993 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there are raw pointers without provenance, too, but you can't actually read or write through them so they don't cause any aliasing conflicts
< 1767831594 991003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the situation with aliasing is a little complicated because the rules that safe Rust implies (that an &mut T is never allowed to alias an &T not derived from it) is different from the rules that unsafe Rust is allowed to use (unsafe Rust currently allows them to alias unless both of them are accessed through – if one of them is unused it's OK – but it's unsafe because using a reference is a safe operation)
< 1767831637 477958 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I thought that's still forbidden in unsafe rust in general.
< 1767831707 751706 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there is a model of unsafe Rust called Stacked Borrows, which is the de-facto standard at the moment – most unsafe Rust programmers are willing to do anything that's legal in Stacked Borrows and the compiler avoids doing optimisations that conflict with it
< 1767831735 480757 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, it is not necessarily the final model – but it's considered much more likely for parts of it to be relaxed than parts of it to be made stricter
< 1767831762 898799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's why rust added the &raw syntax recently, because you're only allowed to have a reference if it always points to a readable object with a valid representation. I know you work that around above with MaybeUninit, but still.
< 1767831788 834319 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Stacked Borrows doesn't look at lifetimes at all when considering whether code is valid or not, just for the first/last use of each given reference (although there is a somewhat confusing "protectors" rule which means that some rules apply for the rest of a function body, even past the last use)
< 1767831827 440697 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reason &raw exists is partly because of that, and partly because if you go via a reference you narrow the provenance
< 1767831855 424832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, lifetimes belong to safe rust, that's how safe rust proves at compile time that it doesn't do anything that would be forbidden in unsafe rust, and unsafe rust is allowed to ignore lifetimes using an unsafe cast of pointer to reference
< 1767831875 769944 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right, so the problem isn't "I convert this to a reference and then to a pointer, and the reference aliases something so it's UB"
< 1767831890 768307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but typed references and typed mut references still have strict rules in unsafe rust
< 1767831916 111472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is "I convert this to a reference and then to a pointer, and the reference aliased something, so *when I use the pointer* it is trying to use the reference's provenance and so the fact that the reference aliased something then causes UB now"
> 1767831975 438833 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172494&oldid=172471 5* 03 5* (+35) 10
< 1767831992 630674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the way to look at it is that a reference that illegally aliases something isn't insta-UB, but it screws up the reference's provenance, so anything that you subsequently try to do with pointers derived from it is UB
< 1767832049 729544 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you might as well express this rule as "references aren't allowed to illegally alias things"
< 1767832100 536882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
> 1767832178 361348 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang talk:Categorization14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172495&oldid=172491 5* 03A() 5* (+206) 10/* Groups */
< 1767832251 983902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you are allowed to point an UnsafeCell anywhere, but I don't think that's an informative way to think of all raw pointers, simply because you aren't guaranteed to be able to do anything with an UnsafeCell
> 1767832431 669503 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:A()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172496&oldid=172252 5* 03A() 5* (+10) 10
> 1767832496 759000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang (Fast Lookup)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172497&oldid=172315 5* 03NTMDev 5* (-169) 10Blanked the page
> 1767832522 142129 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172498&oldid=172317 5* 03NTMDev 5* (-281) 10
> 1767832698 242534 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172499&oldid=172498 5* 03NTMDev 5* (+307) 10/* PrimitiveWrapper (DEPRECATED) */
> 1767832717 2766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ASTLang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172500&oldid=172499 5* 03NTMDev 5* (-133) 10/* Types */
> 1767832951 587353 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172501&oldid=172493 5* 03A() 5* (+30) 10
> 1767832987 991626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172502&oldid=172501 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10
> 1767833004 7904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172503&oldid=172502 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10
< 1767833033 697460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a raw pointer could have arithmetic done on it to store extra info, or it could point to a function or to an atomic. I think you're still allowed to make an &UnsafeCell from it in those cases, but you can't use that &UnsafeCell for anything, so I don't think UnsafeCell helps imagine what raw pointers can do.
> 1767833035 520245 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GTPS14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172504&oldid=172503 5* 03A() 5* (+0) 10
< 1767833054 321511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(other than casting that &UnsafeCell back into a raw pointer)
< 1767833176 805602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(well no, technically you can also pass it as an &UnsafeCell to a foreign function, but it would be strange to declare the function that way rather than with a raw pointer)
< 1767833206 748239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or you can reinterpret the bits of the reference as a pointer, they're represented the same)
< 1767833269 528268 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767833277 340501 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767833352 838396 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :are atomics something different from non-atomics?  i thought that was a property of the access, not the object
< 1767833390 351862 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :is "raw pointer pointing to a function" something different from the general case of "raw pointer to the wrong type"?
< 1767833431 903464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: it's technically a property of the access, but you can cast a raw pointer to a raw pointer of any other type so *anything* is a property of the access at that point. 
< 1767833501 189976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as for raw pointer pointing to a function, only in as much that I think some C APIs use a C pointer to void instead of a pointer to a function whose type isn't known until runtime, which is odd but not really wrong
< 1767833566 810025 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's allowed by POSIX as an extension but not in general legal C, e.g. x86-16 MEDIUM model
< 1767833623 162421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, C specifically allows that for void pointers
< 1767833670 102575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :C says that void pointers can represent pointers to functions or pointers to any type of object, it's safe to cast any of those to void pointer as long as you cast back before use
< 1767833746 274714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also any pointer to a struct/union can represent a pointer to any other struct/union, but that's mostly so that pointers to not incomplete structs can work sanely with a specific representation, which you use if the struct will either be delcared later or only in other compilation units)
< 1767833779 567838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :other pointer types can be more restricted, but void pointers are magic in C
< 1767833802 817392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, not really magic, just have strong guarantees
< 1767833901 172711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :AFAICS &UnsafeCell must be properly aligned because it had to point to valid memory when it was constructed: "whenever a &UnsafeCell is constructed or dereferenced, it must still point to live memory"
< 1767834012 592754 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want something that needn't be able to point to a function the you can use a pointer to struct, kind of. I think the C standard allows that all structs are 4-byte aligned even when you have 1-byte and 2-byte integer types, and pointers to struct could be such that they can only represent 4-aligned addresses, so if you want to do this you'll have to wrap anything you want to point to into a 
< 1767834018 589498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :struct. But I don't think C behaves like that on any real architecture.
< 1767834026 461302 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, but ais523 did say aligned and non-null
< 1767834112 873820 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : are atomics something different from non-atomics?  i thought that was a property of the access, not the object ← it's a property of the access *but* there's no useful way to correctly mix atomic and non-atomic accesses, so it makes sense for the type system to dictate what sort of access you're using
< 1767834145 774192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: Maybe I read something into https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2026-01-08.html#lR that you didn't intend to say, but to me it sounded like you were suggesting that you could, say, put a tagged pointer into a &UnsafeCell
< 1767834157 20382 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : no, C specifically allows that for void pointers ← I also thought function pointers were an exception to this, ahs something changed?
< 1767834212 810453 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: you can't do that specifically due to representation validity reasons (the compiler is allowed to assume that references haven't been tagged, even if you don't read through them, and uses this allowance to collapse enum size) – I don't think there are any provenance reasons why you couldn't do it though
< 1767834232 740975 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that's what I said just before?
< 1767834245 632840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: sorry, pings are confusing
< 1767834257 390316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was mostly replying to b_jonas but trying to quote your comment by reference
< 1767834274 296360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah. relatable.
< 1767834276 431424 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have realised recently that my use of pings on IRC is more to do with whether I am replying to a previous comment specifically than with who I am replying to
< 1767834352 821525 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :recently someone posted two comments, I replied to the second one with no ping, then replied to the first one with a ping, I think that's another example of the same sort of phenomenon (I think I subconsciously decided to gave the ping because the referent wouldn't be obvious otherwise)
< 1767834392 750066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…and now I'm realising that I have somehow managed to subconsciously create a new language convention that uses existing communication mechanisms for a purpose entirely different from the recommended or generally understood one
< 1767834420 736939 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :languages aren't real, it's idiolects all the way down
< 1767834448 629374 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I think of it as like when I'm doing dishes and talking to somebody. Pinging is like looking up, making eye contact, and ensuring that I've gotten a point across. More practically, I use pings to indicate that I think that the recipient might want to read what I'm saying.
< 1767834536 946679 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I can understand if you read it that way, but yes, you may still need the pointer to be aligned and it definitely needs to be non-null if you want to make an UnsafeCell there, and since ais523 mentioned that I didn't repeat.
< 1767834594 150154 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :references being aligned and non-null is a validity thing, otherwise type like Option<&T> wouldn't work properly (it relies on references always being non-null, even if they're never used, to be able to distinguish Some(null) from None)
< 1767834642 790312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if not for that rule an &UnsafeCell to null would actually work, as long as you never read or wrote it (there's a specific rule saying that you can free/unmap the memory behind an &UnsafeCell)
< 1767834677 929196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and because the compiler has to allow for the possibility that the memory is unmapped, it won't do anything that wouldn't work with null, because null is also just unmapped memory from the processor's point of view
< 1767834921 549209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you're right. sorear: sorry, I was wrong about function pointers, C doesn't claim that you can convert them to void * and back. I don't know why I thought it did. 
< 1767835280 501212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Rust rules have been relaxed to allow some limited mixing of atomic with non-atomic, though I hvaen't processed the details of whether this is useful. In particular, I don't understand if you can just zero memory and transmute it instead of initializing a rust atomic.
< 1767835347 253484 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: an &mut can be reborrowed as an &Atomic
< 1767835375 439553 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the basic way to think about it is that all the cell-like types can be switched between if you have a mutable reference, but not if you don't have a mutable reference
< 1767835445 290943 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, but if you reborrow that way, will it give a definite value if you atomic read it, and the same as if you had read it as an integer instead before reborrowing as an atomic?
< 1767835455 155403 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes
< 1767835468 60331 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :good
< 1767835485 64555 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can think of the Atomic types as basically being thread-safe versions of Cell
< 1767835490 408369 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that are limited to primitive types
< 1767835656 942033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, that's how they're implemented, but I want to know what's actually guaranteed about them in a future-proof way. this is relevant eg. if you want to atomic access the same atomic objects from rust and some other language concurrently
< 1767835701 492951 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :memory in Rust is not typed – the only type-like thing about it is whether it carries provenance
< 1767835733 131278 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rules about atomics are basically that accesses that *aren't* atomic can't race with each other, but accesses that are atomic can
< 1767835747 972905 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(if there is a race, both accesses need to be atomic)
< 1767835750 520415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :good
< 1767835788 265691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so if you have any reason to use atomics in the first place (i.e. races exist), you then have to somehow prove that the races have stopped existing before you can do non-atomic accesses on the same memory
< 1767835813 721730 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(prove to the compiler in safe Rust, or prove to yourself in unsafe Rust)
< 1767836082 44582 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so one weird thing that I could imagine is this. Say you have an ARM-like CPU that has arithmetic only between registers, but has both little-endian and big-endian 16-bit and 32-bit integer load and store instructions. So the C ABI has to pick one of big-endian or little-endian, it picked one of them and that spread. Then a later extension of the CPU adds an atomic compare and exchange 
< 1767836088 59644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :instruction, but only one endianness. Then you could end up with a C ABI where integers have the opposite endianness from atomic integers, and then the Rust ABI will match that too.
< 1767836108 673793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or the same but it's only 128 byte sized atomic compare an exchange instructions that are in one endianness only.
< 1767836136 448844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could still manipulate atomics of any endianness, the other endianness just takes an extra instruction or two to byteswap your registers.
< 1767836175 690590 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: AtomicUsize::from_mut / AtomicUsize::get_mut (unstable) would probably deal with the conversion, although it seems unlikely that such a situation would end up happening
< 1767836221 81137 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in practice I would expect all modern processors to use the same endianness for integers as they do for pointers, and normally pointers have to be pushed to the stack automatically by the hardware sometimes
< 1767836235 471130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I can just about imagine having a link register and an interrupt link register to avoid that
< 1767836278 507835 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's how pretty much all of the RISCs work except SuperH
< 1767836321 211030 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :arm1 exceptions store the PC into a general register, but R14/R15 are banked in all modes so it works out the same
< 1767836365 309585 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case, most processors that can't do arithmetic on memory use LL/SC as their atomic primitive rather than CAS
< 1767836383 361466 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I guess it's possible that LL/SC would only work on one endianness but MOV would work on both
< 1767836392 449240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is LL/SC?
< 1767836402 794431 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :load-linked/store-conditional
< 1767836415 212851 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you think of registers as being a sequence of bytes LL/SC and CAS are both endian agnostic
< 1767836423 327589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does that mean?
< 1767836440 270085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way it works on most processors is that LL loads a value from memory and also marks some amount of surrounding memory as busy
< 1767836455 463579 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and SC stores to memory, but only if none of the memory busied by the most recent LL instruction has been touched since
< 1767836493 470339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :otherwise it does some sort of error return instead
< 1767836530 407785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so that's like compare and swap but it's allowed to spuriously fail?
< 1767836551 920999 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(ideally LL would busy only the specific value you loaded, but normally it has to busy at least a cache line)
< 1767836563 770422 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: can indeed spuriously fail, but also it doesn't have the ABA problem
< 1767836565 808213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/sync/atomic/struct.AtomicI32.html#method.compare_exchange_weak
< 1767836576 508699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's "ABA problem"?
< 1767836585 834783 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can emulate "wrong endian" xadd/amoadd/ldadd using a LL/SC or CAS loop but the emulation has different lock-free/wait-free properties than native xadd/amoadd/ldadd
< 1767836594 205341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean at the CPU level it would have somehwat stronger guarantees on when exactly it can spuriously fail
< 1767836608 218430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: memory gets written to twice during an atomic sequence and ends up with its old value, so when you do the compare-and-swap at the end you think it hasn't chagned
< 1767836629 950914 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the ABA thing is an urban legend, LL/SC is stronger than CAS if you can do unrelated memory operations in the middle but this is not actually allowed by any ISA specification
< 1767836649 257709 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this can be problematic if, e.g., the atomic value is a pointer and you are relying on the pointer not having changed to indicate that the value it points to hasn't changed (e.g. because it doesn't change for as long as it's in the variable)
< 1767836685 710062 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because if in the middle of your compare-exchange loop, someone took out the pointer, changed the memory it points to, and put it back again, it'll look like nothing happened but now your information is stale
< 1767836690 286795 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :LL immediately followed by SC is observably equivalent to CAS because you can postdate the successful LL and pretend it happened at the same time as the SC
< 1767836708 438771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, I think this doesn't change much in how I imagine atomics could represent numbers differently than integers
< 1767836729 446855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it's still interesting
< 1767836732 812651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: LL immediately followed by SC is a swap, isn't it? (rather than a compare-and-swap)
< 1767836744 760365 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want a compare-and-swap you need to actually do the compare in between
< 1767836763 969265 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :"immediately" in the sense of the local memory order
< 1767836767 478789 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1767836771 763636 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it explains why so many functions that are generic between CPUs are defined to allow spurious fails where you have to retry
< 1767836775 703293 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, in that case it doesn't give you any extra power I think
< 1767836777 760796 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, explains some of  it
< 1767836786 57742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :some of the spurious failures may be introduced at a higher levle
< 1767836798 994414 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one thing that surprised me about this is just how much memory typically gets busied by the LL in practice
< 1767836816 947533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :realistically it has to be at least a cache line, but often it's somewhere around a kilobyte, which is surprisingly large to me
< 1767836830 429990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :of course, usually you get away with it because the LL and SC are so close together
< 1767836923 100628 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's mostly unobservable outside performance because the SC is allowed to fail spuriously
< 1767836953 552683 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh! there's a subtlety I forgot about converting between atomics and nonatomics – atomics have bigger alignment on some platforms
< 1767836987 481974 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. u64 sometimes has 4-byte alignment on 32-bit platforms, but AtomicU64 has 8-byte alignment basically everywhere because it's hard to stop it straddling a cache line otherwise
< 1767837014 19505 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :the Rocket implementation starts a ~16 cycle timer when it sees a LL, refuses remote invalidations while the timer is active, and succeeds SC if the timer is active and the address matches
< 1767837020 550727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, IIRC misaligned atomics actually work on x86(-64) except for the double-register ones
< 1767837031 346812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's reasonable. cache lines are small because the data actually has to be moved, and there are physical limits to how many bits fit through the wires quickly, but synchronization between CPU threads could be less fine-grained.
< 1767837036 134310 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the processor has to be able to lock two cache lines because of that
< 1767837083 790515 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this still doesn't mean that any sensible compiler/language will let you define misaligned atomics, though)
< 1767837185 969273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, x86_64 mostly tolerates unaligned accesses surprisingly well. there are some cases when they don't work, but it's mostly (1) the MOVDQA instruction that exists for historical reasons because it used to be faster in old CPUs but these days has no advantage over MOVDQU, (2) one flag that you can specifically set to disallow certain unaligned vector accesses, probably to catch code that 
< 1767837191 987892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :mistakenly does unaligned access, and (3) system-related stuff like page tables.
< 1767837206 463401 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: and the alignment check flag!
< 1767837215 14128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's (2) isn't it?
< 1767837229 51791 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, it controls non-vector accesses specifically
< 1767837236 683259 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :riscv has misaligned atomics within an aligned 16byte region as a feature "intended to be mandatory in a future profile", nobody will say what the actual use case for this is
< 1767837252 159825 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :only 16-, 32- and 64-bit accesses cause alignment traps, anything larger (or smaller) can't
< 1767837314 409921 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX and later allow misaligned vectors unless you are using a specifically aligned instruction like MOVDQA, but SSE instructions fault on misaligned vectors, so that's one way to custom alignment behaviour on vector instructions (as long as they're old enough)
< 1767837328 688349 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think AC mostly exists as a migration aid from when they weren't quite sure what the IA-32 successor was and whether it would support misalignment
< 1767837329 884030 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think originally the unaligned was because the 8088 got popular and people wrote code for it that did unaligned access, and some of the supposedly undocumented IBM PC BIOS variables at unaligned addresses ascended to de facto public API that every clone had to support. But I don't know why it got continued so far.
< 1767837372 550714 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :AVX encodings should in theory be faster due to zeroing the top of the register rather than leaving it alone (and causing a false dependency)
< 1767837373 72994 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :debian's current m68k ABI has sizeof int = 4, _Alignof int = 2
< 1767837414 779098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: disassembling network packets and concatenated files and the like may just be useful enough
< 1767837419 470539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it turns out that recent Intel has a sticky "some of the vector registers have data beyond the bottom 16 bytes" flag that isn't vector-specific, meaning that you get the false dependency even with AVX instructions
< 1767837428 383822 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(the only ways to clear it are VZEROUPPER/VZEROALL)
< 1767837437 453003 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* that isn't specific to a particular vector register
< 1767837467 124026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: plus the fact that within the same cache line you can do this "for free"
< 1767837478 460758 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this strikes me as a terrible idea, but Intel probably think they can get away with it because compilers do VZEROUPPER anyway to support linking against SSE libraries (and depressingly, they may be right)
< 1767837491 79407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :alignment check => I see
< 1767837520 910120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in any case this means that on recent Intel, SSE encodings have no actual downside over the AVX equivalent
< 1767837525 243248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: yes, that can be a good reason
< 1767837551 256543 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :useful in string functions too
< 1767837553 80200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because both of them have to write both halves of the register if the second-16-dirty flag is set, and neither of them do if it's clear
< 1767837589 11017 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it also means you can't use different widths of vector at the same time
< 1767837590 568591 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :or say you have a struct (necessarily with several fields) with size 8, align <8.  wouldn't it be nice to copy it with one instruction?
< 1767837605 575551 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(you *can* but you will get all operations acting at the speed of the largest vector you're using)
< 1767837629 593312 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: why does that need to be atomic, though?
< 1767837631 326951 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :do they still have the scratchpad?
< 1767837635 565166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I kind of wish compilers just had four first-class variants for their integer types according to whether they are aligned and their endianness. You can implement this as just library types, and it has been implemented in C++ a few times, but I feel like compilers could implement it easier.
< 1767837646 633276 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: it needs to not fault
< 1767837647 890722 :scoofy_!~scoofy@254C1327.nat.pool.telekom.hu JOIN #esolangs * :realname
< 1767837697 288952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Possibly six types if native endianness is considered different from both big and little endianness in the same way as C int and long and long long are three different types even if they're just two different representations.)
< 1767837707 800411 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: right, but couldn't the feature just say "you need to be able to read/write misaligned data nonatomically within a cache line", rather than supporting atomics too?
< 1767837758 315201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: this goes back to the whole distinction between storage representations and register representations
< 1767837767 317481 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :those weren't connected, I thought the conversation had moved to "why is unaligned access allowed at all"
< 1767837772 730707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: ah, I see
< 1767837792 830220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs : riscv has misaligned atomics within an aligned 16byte region as a feature "intended to be mandatory in a future profile", nobody will say what the actual use case for this is
< 1767837802 294631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then you started justifying it in the non-atomic case, which I agree iwth
< 1767837813 498874 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess a hypothetical new CPU architecture could even have unaligned reads just work like x86, but unaligned writes raise a fault.
< 1767837835 550800 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the best use I can think of in the atomic case is to somehow store more data in an atomic-safe way by using overlapping atomics
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< 1767837882 910580 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if it's doing that, it would be great if it faulted only on entirely unmapped memory and just returned zeroes for partially unmapped memory
< 1767837896 825891 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :misaligned load/store *without* atomicity guarantees is already required in all application profiles
< 1767837899 638345 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the problem there is that hardware normally can't distinguish between memory being unmapped and paged out
< 1767837955 130533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: like for strlen? I dunno, it could make sense
< 1767837971 44245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: right
< 1767837994 828942 :sorear!sid184231@id-184231.uxbridge.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :troll option: byte level NaT
< 1767838014 37966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have considered a mode in my C interpreter where any read from invalid memory silently reads 0, while writes fail, but you're right that at a hardware level this would be much harder
< 1767838028 410076 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorear: that's not quite a troll option if it applies at the byte level in registers but the page level in memory
< 1767838063 553985 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also it's basically how LLVM's virtual machine works
> 1767839098 597607 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MtPenguinMonster 5*  10New user account
> 1767839197 549203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172505&oldid=172451 5* 03MtPenguinMonster 5* (+202) 10/* Introductions */
< 1767839300 155046 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1767842078 350758 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
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> 1767856323 228873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Gur yvsr14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172506&oldid=172492 5* 03Placeholding 5* (+93) 10clarified how a conditional and a conditional destination correspond
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> 1767859624 713465 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Brainpocalypse II14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172507&oldid=164875 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10/* See also */ add goto start, very similair languages!
< 1767859805 959919 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1767862189 25422 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1767863012 639685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172508 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2643) 10Created page with "'''USI''', short for Unknown Source of Intervention, is a language based on the method of implementing of compiling one language to another, in which a counter is used as the program counter, and then when it has a certain value, a certain effect takes place. It 
< 1767863179 341031 :Yayimhere!~Yayimhere@2a02:aa7:464e:d550:a4b7:63fe:5700:f91d JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere
< 1767863510 946751 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
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> 1767866747 641692 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Yayimhere14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172509&oldid=172452 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+64) 10/* esolangs */
< 1767868022 833452 :scoofy_!~scoofy@254C1327.nat.pool.telekom.hu NICK :scoofy
< 1767868033 669970 :scoofy!~scoofy@254C1327.nat.pool.telekom.hu CHGHOST ~scoofy :user/scoofy
< 1767868594 318554 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1767873951 154869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu JOIN #esolangs b_jonas :b_jonas
< 1767874043 340960 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
> 1767874534 447217 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07DeltaLang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172510 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+5909) 10Created page with "DeltaLang is designed by PSTF. It is a formal programming language, roughly designed in [https://funcode.miraheze.org/wiki/Gdel's_Incompleteness_Theorems_vs_Programming_Languages Gdel's Incompleteness Theorems vs Programming Languages].  Note, the DeltaLang reco
< 1767875025 914530 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1767875255 201757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172511&oldid=172480 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-2) 10
> 1767878200 284593 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172512&oldid=172199 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+17476) 10Sequential tag system implementation
< 1767879763 231520 :pool!~nathan@user/PoolloverNathan QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1767883606 349857 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
> 1767883663 531543 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BrainTrix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172513&oldid=170948 5* 03JIT 5* (+10) 10
> 1767883693 993995 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Hata hata hata ton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172514&oldid=171054 5* 03JIT 5* (+24) 10
> 1767883754 136988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AddByteNegJump14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172515&oldid=171056 5* 03JIT 5* (+42) 10
> 1767883772 634087 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AddSys14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172516&oldid=171083 5* 03JIT 5* (+23) 10
> 1767883787 404236 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AddByte14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172517&oldid=171194 5* 03JIT 5* (+23) 10
> 1767883810 237459 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Memory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172518&oldid=171288 5* 03JIT 5* (+23) 10TIM
> 1767883864 240017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07AddByteJump14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172519&oldid=172462 5* 03JIT 5* (+23) 10its not THAT hard, TIM! just add a category:languages and tHATS it
> 1767884107 910329 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:USI14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172520 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+349) 10noticed
> 1767884209 512665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172521&oldid=172520 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+237) 10
< 1767884441 389001 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
> 1767884553 553352 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172522&oldid=172508 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+17) 10
< 1767884901 207017 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1767885020 181390 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767885414 955744 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1767885421 867738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`olist 1338
< 1767885426 627118 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :olist : shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
< 1767885500 401798 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( the wall of text comic is still going I see )
> 1767885813 664227 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172523 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+202) 10Created page with "Hey, you make some cool stuff!!! Would you perhaps collaborate with me on an esolang? --~~~~"
> 1767886067 538940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172524&oldid=172512 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+1209) 10Cyclic tag system implementation
> 1767886592 883968 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172525&oldid=172523 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+134) 10
> 1767886688 841737 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172526&oldid=172525 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+165) 10
< 1767886710 569690 :amby!~ambylastn@host-81-178-158-35.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1767887116 466825 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 QUIT :Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.
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> 1767887616 211007 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172527&oldid=172526 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+372) 10
> 1767887681 862653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172528&oldid=172527 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+189) 10
> 1767888101 133789 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172529&oldid=172528 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+402) 10
> 1767888267 606291 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172530&oldid=172529 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+136) 10
< 1767888275 725722 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767888421 489578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172531&oldid=171679 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+145) 10Link to UnnamedEsolang draft page
< 1767889428 491513 :ehmry!~quassel@217.155.30.169 JOIN #esolangs ehmry :Emery
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> 1767890379 61194 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/UnnamedEsolang14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172532 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+1544) 10Just an idea of a language
< 1767890391 150528 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1767890419 788661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172533&oldid=172530 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+131) 10
> 1767890583 755967 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/UnnamedEsolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172534&oldid=172532 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (-1) 10typo
> 1767890778 274877 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172535&oldid=172533 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+321) 10
> 1767890916 425192 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172536&oldid=172535 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+31) 10
> 1767891317 782145 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172537&oldid=172536 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+431) 10
> 1767891524 208469 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172538&oldid=172537 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+213) 10
> 1767891721 923595 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172539&oldid=172538 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+168) 10
> 1767891755 441739 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172540&oldid=172539 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+182) 10
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> 1767891919 732585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/UnnamedEsolang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172541&oldid=172534 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+41) 10some clarification
> 1767891959 602092 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/UnnamedEsolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172542&oldid=172541 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+12) 10
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> 1767896265 686746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172543&oldid=172436 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+843) 10implement the [[Kolakoski sequence]]
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> 1767896324 41225 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172544&oldid=168755 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+834) 10add [[Countable]]
> 1767896326 350880 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172545&oldid=172524 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+4765) 10/* Cyclic tag system */ Compiled form of cts-sts adapter
< 1767896402 331468 :svm!~msv@user/msv NICK :msv
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> 1767897677 283623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kolakoski sequence14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172546&oldid=172544 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Countable */ == -> ===
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> 1767897951 302918 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172547&oldid=172545 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+289) 10New rule with S combinator, update table, remove some todos
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< 1767898940 889807 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767898971 632931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172548&oldid=172543 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+8) 10make example programs have === === titles
> 1767899209 554164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172549&oldid=172522 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+208) 10/* Syntax */
> 1767899337 439218 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Pythong14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172550 5* 03FluixMakesEsolangs 5* (+1827) 10Initial Creation of Page
> 1767899339 233012 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172551&oldid=172549 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+2) 10/* Constructs */
> 1767899422 809425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172552&oldid=172551 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+23) 10/* Semantics */
< 1767899670 261470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :@metar EGBB
< 1767899670 606066 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs :METAR EGBB 081850Z 08010KT 1500 SN OVC004 01/00 Q0986 RESN RERA
> 1767899953 287320 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Apraxia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172553&oldid=172381 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+8) 10/* Combinators */
> 1767900200 434146 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172554&oldid=172552 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+34) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767900216 522929 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172555&oldid=172554 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+47) 10/* Memory */
> 1767900244 683741 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172556&oldid=172555 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+24) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767900293 865346 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172557&oldid=172556 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+18) 10/* Semantics */
> 1767900467 181513 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172558&oldid=172557 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+0) 10
> 1767900533 705382 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172559&oldid=172494 5* 03FluixMakesEsolangs 5* (+240) 10I eat dirt
> 1767900581 460260 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs/Secret14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172560&oldid=172469 5* 03FluixMakesEsolangs 5* (+145) 10
< 1767900702 341833 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1767901063 874843 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1767901073 974203 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1767901153 443063 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1767901177 868954 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07USI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172561&oldid=172558 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (+65) 10/* Memory */
> 1767901577 925297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172562&oldid=172011 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+237) 10
> 1767901662 214235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172563&oldid=172562 5* 03Frendoly 5* (+131) 10
> 1767901717 745234 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172564&oldid=172548 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-210) 10/* Commands */ simplifying language
> 1767901794 96942 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan392514]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172565&oldid=172563 5* 03Frendoly 5* (-1) 10
> 1767902219 962722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Countable14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172566&oldid=172564 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+46) 10/* Commands */
< 1767903503 716291 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767903511 339501 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
< 1767903684 823039 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767903761 115677 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1767905432 414602 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs/Secret14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172567&oldid=172560 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+206) 10
> 1767905554 925046 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pythong14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172568 5* 03 5* (+88) 10Created page with "but what if you type print("garfield")?! the program would be incorrect 20% of the time!"
> 1767905573 658600 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Pythong14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172569&oldid=172568 5* 03 5* (+0) 10
> 1767905605 865752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:FluixMakesEsolangs/Secret14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172570&oldid=172567 5* 03 5* (+19) 10
> 1767905612 257766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Crazy J14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172571&oldid=172547 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+14) 10Strike out few TODO entries
> 1767906828 415230 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 036S37l0314M0ri1109 5*  10New user account
> 1767907897 912233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172572&oldid=172511 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+54) 10
> 1767908603 760566 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172573&oldid=172401 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+458) 10Added why Backtick is Turing Complete.
> 1767908642 998752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172574&oldid=172573 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+0) 10Moved link.
> 1767908763 456269 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172575&oldid=172574 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (-1) 10fixed syntax
> 1767908807 158376 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172576&oldid=172575 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (-1) 10moved comment to new line
> 1767908830 827882 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Backtick14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172577&oldid=172576 5* 03Splot-dev 5* (+1) 10fixed grammar
< 1767909704 94382 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1767909842 775568 :impomatic!~impomatic@2a00:23c7:5fc6:3201:3cc5:8e33:3808:f449 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1767909842 891134 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1767909852 339720 :somefan!~somefan@208.58.192.69 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan
> 1767910097 905279 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172578&oldid=172475 5* 03Buckets 5* (+14) 10/* M */
> 1767910128 794506 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Buckets14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=172579&oldid=172476 5* 03Buckets 5* (+13) 10
> 1767910142 517598 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Masheen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=172580 5* 03Buckets 5* (+1064) 10Created page with "Masheen is an Esoteric Programming Language created by [[User:Buckets]] in 2022.  The IP Will start at the top-Left pointing Rightwards. {| class="wikitable" |- ! Commands !! Instructions |- | m || Point downwards if The Current value Is Perfectly Divisible by m(, so it
< 1767912038 257236 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:a460:d351:8685:d1f0 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1767913936 929891 :scoofy!~scoofy@user/scoofy QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds