> 1773187249 508988 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ima gte. Ima dana14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177543&oldid=177542 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+141) 10
> 1773187297 385365 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ima gte. Ima dana/Operation table14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177544 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
< 1773188247 262389 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1773188289 73048 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I implemented my gamepad typing algorithm: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/typing.html
< 1773188349 572511 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find my most common typoes are moving in the right direction but with the wrong hand, accidental overlaps when trying to type quickly, and accidentally pressing a diagonal when I meant to press an orthogonal
< 1773188388 348446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> I hope when you get a stable system from this you document it somewhere
< 1773188406 585197 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :may take a while to write out the rules but the implementation may be sufficient to determine them experimentally
< 1773188540 996970 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :note that you will need to connect a standard-layout (17-button or compatible) game controller in order to use the page
< 1773188543 989901 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or read the source code)
< 1773188937 700633 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think you're right that accidental overlaps may become more of a problem as typing speed increases, I wonder if there would be some easy way to tell them apart from the intentional ones
< 1773189340 466400 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's also not totally finished yet, missing many important punctuation marks and digits
< 1773190533 959212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I don't quite understand this code. does this mean that if you want one of the secondary consonants [dkmbzvwx] then you hold the following vowel first before you press the consonant, or hold the right shoulder button if there's no following vowel?
< 1773190550 634381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is 5 even the shoulder button, or does that refer to pressing the joystick?
< 1773190573 374908 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: you can get it two ways, either hold the preceding vowel and press the consonant, or hold the consonant until you start the following vowel
< 1773190578 514969 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yes, 5 is the right shoulder button
< 1773190588 384747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1773190593 508104 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the HTML/JS gamepad API has really stupid button numbering
< 1773190607 194850 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the face buttons and d-pad aren't at all consistent in their numbering schemes
< 1773190622 157276 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the right shoulder button is the spacebar, it acts like a ninth vowel
< 1773190633 851248 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so holding t and pressing the right shoulder button gives you "d "
< 1773190647 234993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, it's space
> 1773190663 479750 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177545&oldid=177521 5* 03InLuaIKnow 5* (+227) 10/* Lua (made by User:InLuaIKnow) */
< 1773190665 536921 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :qu and j are the most difficult, you have to hold orthogonal, press the vowel, then change to a diagonal before releasing
< 1773190677 624181 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a fairly easy input to make but a little harder to remember
< 1773190691 707377 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this works because qu and j are always followed by a vowel in English)
< 1773190736 799144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so because you can hold either the previous vowel or the next vowel to get the secondary consonant, you can use that to get any two of the 16 main consonants one after another if there's a vowel or space before and after?
< 1773190759 707042 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1773190769 713782 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but actually there are a lot of special cases to avoid needing to use word boundaries
< 1773190780 253521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. you can hold a vowel and press two consonants, holding a and pressing t twice gives "add"
> 1773190794 333851 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177546&oldid=177545 5* 03InLuaIKnow 5* (+62) 10/* Syntax */
< 1773190822 445215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm surprised that x rather than j is the secondary consonant paired with c 
< 1773190825 40193 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you can hold a vowel through an n to affect the consonant beyond, holding a and typing "nt" gives "and" rather than "amd" (the choice of m or n in the middle depends on what the third letter is, holding "a" and pressing "np" would give "amb")
< 1773190838 483472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"x" is sometimes followed by a consonant, e.g. "explosion"
< 1773190850 499559 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but "j" is always followed by a vowel, so it can use an input that requires one
< 1773190856 398638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes sense
< 1773190894 618022 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's not totally based on letter frequency (although that was an important factor, it wasn't the only one)
< 1773190933 105095 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the other nontrivial thing is that after c, s, and th, the positions of g and k swap, as do the positions of m and n
< 1773190942 444211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this "just works" in a very large number of cases
< 1773190971 857281 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's worth the extra confusion of the letters changing places sometimes
< 1773191566 771205 :amby!~ambylastn@host-78-151-24-174.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
< 1773191571 388378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: how do you type "handful"?
< 1773191615 448772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also how do you type "thanks"? is there a special case to cover these?
< 1773191633 78856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, for "handful" you hold a and type n t
< 1773191653 135847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and for "thanks" you hold a and type n g
< 1773191680 727871 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :holding a vowel and pressing n, then pressing another consonant, the middle letter is m or n depending on what the third letter is
< 1773191691 939800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah indeed, those are the "two special cases for vowel-n"
< 1773191739 155295 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a syllable in English can't end "amd" or "amk", and if the d or k were part of the next syllable it would have a vowel/l/r after it
< 1773191762 755971 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or rarely n if the k is silent
< 1773191979 974846 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is another special case that handles, e.g. "jackknife", but it isn't shown on the guide because it's rarely used and it's easier to scan the guide for the letter you want if it only uses each letter once
< 1773192039 954734 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the entirety of /usr/share/dict/words (except proper nouns and loanwords) is typable without ever having to use the spacebar to help
< 1773192049 285644 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although I made quite a few late tweaks so I'm not totally sure
< 1773192096 251166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how do you type "meanwhile"?
< 1773192137 953862 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I'm searching a dictionary for consonant clusters)
< 1773192236 793932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also "nothingness"
< 1773192284 523224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "amongst"
< 1773192322 803913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :no wait, "amongst" isn't a problem
< 1773192332 59727 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :nor is "nothingness"
< 1773192354 456598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is a glide for entering "wh", the same way as you would type "qu"
< 1773192385 986674 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold h, type the vowel, move the d-pad to the right before releasing it
< 1773192412 463880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1773192420 952388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same trick works for "mn" (e.g. "unmnemonic", which I had huge trouble typing even on this normal QWERTY keyboard)
< 1773192448 846071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :unmnemonic
< 1773192506 658441 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and "dw" although you have to stretch really far to put that into a problematic position (e.g. "postdwarf")
< 1773192680 999746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think this might cover all common words. next question "cutzpah"
< 1773192738 120227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that one might actually defeat it, but you can still type it by holding a vowel after the t, backspacing the vowel and then typing the z with the vowel still held
< 1773192754 309890 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(backspace is the left bumper)
< 1773192789 928625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1773192793 426691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you can do it the other way round, type, e.g. "ze" then backspace the e
< 1773192803 816819 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(this also works for j, qu and lone q)
< 1773192814 766278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the normal way to type the punctuation marks shown on the right of the legend?
< 1773192828 4269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold the vowel then press the right bumper
< 1773192836 417798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :normally it inserts a space after them too (although for - and / it doesn't)
< 1773192849 100941 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1773192887 308280 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the reverse pattern (hold space then press the vowel) is currently unused, it would make sense to put another set of punctuation marks on that input
< 1773192927 31127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how about "pocketknife"?
< 1773192964 595491 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :special case for kn (and for ck, although that one isn't necessary to type the word); hold n then hold/tap i then move the d-pad towards k
< 1773192975 348930 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you get "kni"
< 1773193004 27604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, so there's qu, wh, mn, kn as these sequences?
< 1773193024 62799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :qu, wh, mn, kn, dw, j
< 1773193032 521896 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and two unused because they aren't important enough
< 1773193049 473154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see
< 1773193054 528509 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they would logically be dn and zn but neither of those appears at the start of words in practice
< 1773193188 49214 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that reminds me, I was considering making s+space produce "'s " rather than "z ", that would handle all the words ending 's which would otherwise be problematic
< 1773193195 627269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(primarily due to not having an apostrophe)
< 1773193360 218834 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for apostrophes that aren't 's, I was considering (in the common case) typing them as some other letter and using a dictionary to correct, as there aren't that many words with apostrophes in – o appears to have no collisions in /usr/share/dict/words
< 1773193371 801524 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, e.g., "it's" would be typed as "itos" and autocorrected
< 1773193379 796539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, you could have exceptions for all the other common apostrophe combinations in english then, like "'d", "'re", "n't" "I'm"
< 1773193396 828612 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1773193418 674554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if s+space produces "'s" then how do you type "waltz"?
< 1773193421 332375 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'re is difficult because r and e are both on the vowels side
< 1773193448 882094 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would have to type another vowel and delete it
< 1773193453 501415 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so there would be a compromise involved
< 1773193511 795769 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"dz" is an extremely rare ending, so maybe it could have a special case like the case for "nk"
< 1773193551 226448 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the right shoulder button add a second space if you start to type a word holding it? for when you release space before you decide what the next word you want to type is
< 1773193571 761279 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would
< 1773193584 416779 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been considering making that a special case to type "the" but that may be too cute
< 1773193604 612185 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I've been trying to design the system to not rely on holding space onto the start of a word
< 1773193611 862410 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so that unknown compound words are typable)
< 1773193631 241037 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is also important if typing the first word on a line
< 1773193696 273163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, let me check that
< 1773193737 348923 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"and" relies on a special case, it's the most common word that does I think
< 1773193767 682430 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, and the second-most common is "which"
< 1773193768 907193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that should mostly work except for "vs"
< 1773193775 60550 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :which special case?
< 1773193798 283287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, the "md" special case
< 1773193801 236565 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1773193838 500301 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"vs" is interesting because it's an abbrevation (and isn't actually pronounced the way it's spelled), so it gets to dodge the pronunciation-based reasoning
< 1773193855 47174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :besides "vs", I find "khaki" and "khan"
< 1773193879 822167 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering a kh special case because of that
< 1773193885 409183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but didn't think it'd be useful enough
< 1773193897 246166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're rare enough that backpacing could be fine
< 1773193901 786245 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there is space on d, vowel, upwards
< 1773193931 370989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't that where you're putting "'d"?
< 1773193941 258314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, that's only with space as the vowel
< 1773193962 454265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, that's interesting – letter, space, rotate to produce apostrophes
< 1773193967 952211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and it could even multiplex as "'t" after an "n"
< 1773193986 552542 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you would just rotate an n for that I think
< 1773194009 620527 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could have n't, 'd, 's very easily and there is room for five more
< 1773194051 358068 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although there's nowhere really mnemonic to put 're because it doesn't contain any left-hand letters
< 1773194111 410493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw, I'm considering swapping pb and fv – I am happy with the other 14 placements (which were determined with a lot of experimentation as to what would flow well) but not sure about that one
< 1773194124 960958 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's an alternative, which is that you type "n't" as "not" and have a dictionary of the forty or so words that end in "n't"
< 1773194151 469509 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering "type ' as o, except 's, and use a dictionary"
< 1773194154 217995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but "'d" and "'s" are living endings that you can put to new words so it doesn't work there
< 1773194193 245324 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'d is normally used to abbreviate "had" or "would" and can only do that on finitely many words
< 1773194206 789169 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or, hmm, can it do that on names?
< 1773194223 411224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe
< 1773194224 961388 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :'s of course can be used on any noun
< 1773194231 540211 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it has to be a special case
< 1773194256 270877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :there's also "'ve", and "o'clock" definitely needs a one-off exception
< 1773194283 16372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"ma'am" too, and you can't put that on "Maoam" because that's a real word
< 1773194286 730088 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then you have to start dealing with words like "o'er"
< 1773194334 516303 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there should be some general-case way to type an apostrophe and maybe a shortcut for common words that contain it
< 1773194386 596935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but there are so many punctuation marks, ASCII has 94 printable non-whitespace characters and only 62 of them are alphanumeric, so that's 32 punctuation marks that need inputs
< 1773194474 502507 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, another problem with my demo is that you have to mash the left bumper to backspace multiple characters, I should make that backspace repeatedly if held
< 1773194485 681493 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe time the backspace key that I'm used to and get the controller's backspace to match
< 1773194574 131801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or just add a way to delete a word
< 1773194580 77220 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION vaguely wonders if U+0020 should be called the "forward space" character

< 1773194585 497836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you probably need some way to enter a capital letter
< 1773194597 121316 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, I haven't decided what to do about capitalisation yet
< 1773194609 474098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it might involve one of the other buttons on the controller
< 1773194626 262309 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :digits, likewise
< 1773194663 880995 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe there could be US-TTY-style modes, uppercase letters / lowercase letters / digits and punctuation
< 1773194683 300285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've no idea how you'd enter digits at all
< 1773194707 850051 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a modal system it's easy enough, the hard part is remembering where they are
< 1773194806 97990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fwiw I'm pretty sure the left analog stick should move the cursor (but I haven't implemented that yet) – and I was planning to have a sort of mark/point-style selection system where any edit moves the mark to the point of the edit
< 1773194817 951654 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I'm not sure what to do with the selections after creating them
< 1773194882 669133 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(I was considering making selection / cursor movement be based on the gyro, but haven't figured out how to get my computer and controller to talk to each other in such a way that the gyro is usable)
< 1773194898 438513 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :eww no
< 1773194924 36785 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it would be done in such a way that gyro movement never had any effect other than moving a marker showing where the gyro was aiming, until you pressed a key to confirm
< 1773194936 422397 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and with a way to fine-adjust afterwards without using it
< 1773194948 202064 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :even then, though, I wasn't sure about the idea, would have to test it to see if it works
< 1773195066 909986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :capital letters is what worries me the most, I've no idea how you'd type them without freeing up something that you're currently using
< 1773195155 580671 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rest I can imagine fitting there, like cursor movement and editing, a digits lock, and an escape for rare characters
< 1773195237 535259 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think another button would be involved
< 1773195271 749353 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also there's a lot of unused space in "hold a consonant and type two vowels"
< 1773195280 903114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be possible to replace one or two of those eight punctuation marks
< 1773195293 466807 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and a lot of buttons that aren't currently in use
< 1773195369 222829 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in my initial testing, I was making moving the left analog stick diagonally down-right do a newline (it feels satisfyingly return-like) although I haven't implemented it yet – it seems like that might not conflict with the use for cursor movement, unless you wanted to insert a newline mid-line
< 1773196473 384488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm assuming if you press the left stick you enter something like vi's normal mode where the d-pad and face buttons and their combinations let you enter editing commands, and the left d-pad moves the cursor. in normal mode, i takes you back to insert mode; u places the mark; y copies text between mark and cursor to the clipboard; e deletes text between mark and cursor; l pastes text; c and g let you 
< 1773196479 392773 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :enter any one character by typing two or four hex digits respectively where each of the 16 hex digits is assigned somehow to the d-pad and face buttons. pressing the right stick (in any mode or pressing t in normal mode) puts you into locking digits mode where 10 of the 16 button combos let you type a digit, the rest let you type a dot, a hyphen, a comma, go to insert mode, go to normal mode. space and 
< 1773196485 395557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :backspace work the same in digit mode as in insert mode.
< 1773196722 542690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but I think you will have to replace the exclamation sign with a capital letter prefix. press it twice and it's a locking capital letter shift.
< 1773196730 439164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd make it not type a space of course
< 1773196743 985960 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :remember that there are two shoulder buttons on each side
< 1773196755 189238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but not if you're using the Switch
< 1773196758 342470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering using the back ones as capital letters or digit switches
< 1773196758 500572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :with its joycons
< 1773196765 580533 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no, the Switch has them too
< 1773196774 870936 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're called ZL and ZR
< 1773196785 222465 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not usable in single-joycon mode, but usable with docked joycons
< 1773196785 641314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a place where you can reach all four without awkwardness?
< 1773196795 117716 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not sure, I don't actually have a Switch
< 1773196869 622442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, I think you're right, they do have two shoulder buttons
< 1773196883 886546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's good, then if you have a recent controller then you can use all four
< 1773196902 43634 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1773196978 994663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's unclear what to use the right analog stick for, that has a lot of potential as well
< 1773197014 389292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but experimentation showed that analog sticks are extremely bad at digital inputs
< 1773197021 789262 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it should be something that's continuous in a sense
< 1773197134 263839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think one of the sticks doesn't do entering text, it either moves the mouse cursor or moves to a different control than the current textarea
< 1773197153 260910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not entirely sure what's left stick and what's right stick
< 1773197220 788634 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, hmm, if we're thinking about use on a website, presumably one of them moves the cursor and the other one scrolls
< 1773197241 784530 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right stick is traditionally the camera control, almost all games use it for that, so it would make sense to use it for scrolling
< 1773197262 688130 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and left stick is player movement so that would be used to move the cursor
< 1773197267 317369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's possible too, so you can move the text cursor only in normal mode
< 1773197322 651843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think what right stick does is that it's a combination scroll and mouse cursor movement – it moves the cursor but it also scrolls (along with the cursor) to move the cursor as close to the centre of the screen as possible
> 1773197325 448663 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ZecZec14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177547&oldid=177417 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+120) 10/* Examples */
< 1773197332 241339 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(so that it only moves to the side once you reach an edge of the scrollable reagion)
< 1773197333 681192 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* region
< 1773197360 415569 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1773197362 929373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I dunno
< 1773197374 678636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was thinking more along the lines of a webapp than a browser, though, when I wrote this (HTML/JS was a convenient way to make a cross-platform editor that could read a gamepad)
< 1773197460 434836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it doesn't have to be a browser, it could be some other program where you're entering text into a field then switching to other controls
< 1773197485 385259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :you'd need that unless this is specifically just a text editor
< 1773197584 816773 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well I was thinking that it would be a text-editing mode within a larger program
< 1773197608 128292 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if it isn't in the mode in question, then the controls don't really matter, you can have whatever clashes you like
< 1773197608 672972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if it's a text editor then right stick scrolls would make sense
< 1773197652 470443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, you probably need some way to exit from text editing mode at least
< 1773197720 967656 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so many unused combinations :-)
< 1773197738 688489 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :space + backspace is a good one for a global-menu type of thing
< 1773197738 743266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably need to find a better way to enter digit lock mode
< 1773197755 881683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :what? no, space+backspace deletes a word
< 1773197764 958832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or is that caps+backspace?
< 1773197765 35433 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that'll be nearly as common
< 1773197780 166183 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think the back shoulder buttons are probably the best options for caps lock and digit lock
< 1773197859 507414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :dunno, I use delete word often when I change my mind about what to type, as opposed to when I press the wrong key
< 1773197910 442865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I normally hold backspace for that
< 1773197927 221752 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but caps lock and digit lock would make sense to change the scope of backspace
< 1773197929 630193 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :although you could add more functions to the backspace key if you press it in combination with some other button
< 1773197935 602275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they're basically shifts
< 1773198693 565087 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1773198833 22904 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Client Quit
> 1773200349 543540 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177548&oldid=174205 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+0) 10/* Tips */  ASSCI
> 1773200367 608820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177549&oldid=177548 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+1) 10/* Tips */ ASCI
< 1773201803 224026 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1773202701 466489 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
> 1773203000 829749 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ima gte. Ima dana/Operation table14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177550&oldid=177544 5* 03BODOKE2801e 5* (+620) 10unfinished
< 1773205968 140499 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1773205992 56556 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
< 1773208544 835892 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1773213059 528978 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1773221372 419709 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :A thing: https://github.com/nevesnunes/z80-sans
> 1773224973 955958 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mrmr2 5*  10New user account
< 1773228132 295523 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1773229705 218736 :msv!~msv@user/msv QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1773229722 15677 :msv!~msv@user/msv JOIN #esolangs msv :msv
> 1773230876 895485 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:Unf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177551 5* 03None1 5* (+36) 10Used when the page is not finished, but the language is
> 1773231031 898652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ChangeFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177552 5* 03None1 5* (+209) 10Created page with "{{lang|a=User:None1|i=[[brainfuck]] and [[Malbolge]]. It's [[brainfuck]] but every command has a wierd side effects on the memory or program, in order to make programs hard to be written.  ==Commands== {{Unf}}"
> 1773231196 928762 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ChangeFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177553&oldid=177552 5* 03None1 5* (+175) 10
< 1773233196 563005 :Owen!~Owen@host-ftxk9008b7ovrwdqj.pd.sdm-w7d1-a.v6.dfn.nl JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Owen
< 1773233200 271535 :Owen!~Owen@host-ftxk9008b7ovrwdqj.pd.sdm-w7d1-a.v6.dfn.nl PART :#esolangs
< 1773233872 77060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so after sleeping over this, ais523's text entry scheme makes more sense in that it's elegant, but I still think it will be a problem that you're often not allowed to overlap presses from your two hands and this will slow you down. how much problem this is in practice I don't know.
> 1773235601 880133 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Qpx5997 5*  10New user account
> 1773235852 818752 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177554&oldid=177528 5* 03Qpx5997 5* (+120) 10
> 1773236152 15852 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177555&oldid=177554 5* 03Qpx5997 5* (+88) 10
> 1773236378 833185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177556 5* 03Qpx5997 5* (+236) 10Created page with " is a [[joke language list|joke language]] created by qpx5997 which uses emojis as part of its syntax. Its demo version has been released at [https://github.com/qpx5997/ewemohcheese/ this page].  more to be added soon!"
< 1773236858 604369 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1773237248 109998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177557&oldid=176532 5* 03Qpx5997 5* (+79) 10
< 1773239519 813182 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yay, my color mixing plans are coming together: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-mixer-2.jpg is the simple version and https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-mixer-3.jpg the perfectly balanced one (with some logic externalized, that's the extra 1x1 platform)
> 1773241060 659544 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:Unf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177558 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+323) 10Created page with "[[Template:Stub]] already exists for this purpose ~~~~"
< 1773241108 10153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: so you're saying that unlike in shapez 1, low latency isn't as important here, so it's fine to mix colors based on control signal inputs?
> 1773241361 350721 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:OskuDev14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177559 5* 03OskuDev 5* (+391) 10Created page with "I-I-I-I just bought more land in the metaverse Now I'm getting paid cash with Atlas Earth (Yeah) Got virtual land all across the globe (Across the globe)  The next wave is digital Catch me on the way up The glow up is visible Cop a couple more Watch my income go up 
< 1773241364 789047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. The MAM shapes have formulas like... for the n-th shape, deliver 1e3 * 1.04^(n-1) of them (and that's the slowest growing one), capped at 2^31. This is divided by some factor that for me is 5 and goes up to 12. So... initially, latency matters. But exponential growth will make the effect negligible quickly.
< 1773241394 547308 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(A full belt carries 180 items per minute.)
> 1773241411 156887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:Unf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177560&oldid=177558 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+120) 10
> 1773241412 112776 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:OskuDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177561&oldid=177559 5* 03OskuDev 5* (+12) 10
< 1773241447 813998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :for how many items does one of these paint mixing sectors supply paint?
< 1773241454 130668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :how many delivered items
< 1773241464 91970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :because that decides how often they have to switch
< 1773241477 145915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This is planning for 12 belts. This is for the painting quarters stage.
< 1773241537 511172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, that does sound like the exponential growth will be fast enough 
< 1773241923 333042 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Let me see real numbers. I mean, at first the latency will feel very significant still: One MAM goal sits at 28k, which with factor 5 and 12 bytes is  2m35s; the other one sits at 9.2k which is 51s. But for each goal completed,shape delivered
< 1773242005 2033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But the first one goes up by 7% per completed goal, and the second one by 4%. So soon enough it'll take hours anyway.
> 1773242008 887039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ChangeFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177562&oldid=177553 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10stub
< 1773242027 545314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :12 bytes? 12 belts!
< 1773242028 875668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1773242041 528747 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess they sound vaguely similar?
> 1773242068 960392 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ima gte. Ima dana14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177563&oldid=177543 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10fix example
< 1773242105 266158 :ethan1!ethan@tilde.team JOIN #esolangs * :ethan
< 1773242322 872644 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: It's safe to say that I'm spending way more time on designing this stuff than I expect to wait for the resulting latency. :)
< 1773242528 994820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, that's normal 
< 1773242590 971866 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well in shapez 1 if you were pushing silly goals like reaching level 100k, the story would be different :P
< 1773242706 290324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The highest "operator level" I've seen for shapez 2 is below 1.7k and maybe 650 of those levels came from MAM shapes.
< 1773242734 338378 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
> 1773242768 129718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Thisthat14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177564&oldid=175582 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+0) 10/* Update order */
< 1773242873 547264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :And I'm convinced that there's *months* of playtime on that one, though I have not seen any actual number for that.
< 1773242899 350599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(mostly idling, I hope)
< 1773242952 121171 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :<b_jonas> ok, so after sleeping over this, ais523's text entry scheme makes more sense in that it's elegant, but I still think it will be a problem that you're often not allowed to overlap presses from your two hands and this will slow you down. how much problem this is in practice I don't know. ← my opinion is similar to this, it appears to be a problem to some extent but I don't know how much or whether it could be easily fixed by requiring a minimum 
< 1773242953 678653 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :duration for the overlap
< 1773242980 479200 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I find my accidental overlaps were usually consonant to vowel at the end of a word, e.g. "twe" instead of "the"
< 1773243030 200360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it could well become more of a problem as I get faster
< 1773243055 11755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in the case of "twe" it could easily be made an alias for "the", like "teh" is in Microsoft Word)
< 1773243483 41224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that could work, you'd just need a short regex for exceptions for real words starting with "twe", like twenty, twelve, etc. the only conflict is probably the rare word "twee".
< 1773243661 861292 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1773244467 461164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template talk:Unf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177565&oldid=177560 5* 03Corbin 5* (+149) 10
< 1773244933 91639 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:3487:1b00:2807:b44c:c102:bda9 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1773245464 795904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177566&oldid=177555 5* 03Mrmr2 5* (+83) 10/* Introductions */
> 1773245493 421066 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C/Cb14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177567 5* 03Mrmr2 5* (+616) 10Made the initial page
< 1773245496 125824 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: oh, I was thinking more the one specific word
< 1773245562 895842 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really if I want to be serious about this I should write typing speed testing programs for the new layout, and have them record the times of the inputs for both typos and correctly spelled words, and then try to determine if there's a clear difference in the timings that could be used to tell apart intentional from unintentional overlaps
> 1773245567 390113 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C/Cb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177568&oldid=177567 5* 03Mrmr2 5* (+8) 10/* Examples */  changed hi mom to hello world
< 1773245578 278607 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and then force myself to get faster and see if the patterns change
< 1773245750 528115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that, and try to find other input methods
> 1773246162 444703 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07C/Cb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177569&oldid=177568 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-12) 10
< 1773246322 564661 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1773246739 449771 :Artea!~Lufia@artea.pt QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1773249631 55493 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Iterate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177570&oldid=175578 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+47) 10Compiled Iterate file extension
> 1773249765 185622 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07List of esolang file extensions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177571&oldid=174880 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+30) 10add [[Compiled Iterate]]
> 1773249784 530569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Compiled Iterate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177572 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+33) 10Redirected page to [[Iterate/Compilation]]
< 1773250191 410220 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1773251676 563346 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] impomatic
< 1773253407 843801 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1773254960 227568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so I used to have the impression that the C and C++ rules for how different compilation units has to match are very different, because I didn't know how the C rules work. I have now read more about the C rules, and they aren't *that* strange. So both C++ and C say that if a global function or object is declared in multiple compilation units then those declarations must be compatible. Also if those 
< 1773254966 237922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :declarations refer to a struct/union then in all compilation units among these where that struct/union is defined, that struct/union must be defined in a compatible way too. There are two main differences between C++ and C here. (1) C++ is stricter in what it considers compatible. In insists that two declarations can only be compatible if they match both in syntax tokenwise (after preprocessing) and 
< 1773254972 248994 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :semantics. C wants exactly the same semantics but allows syntax differences, eg. it sees through typedefs so doesn't care if you mention a type directly in one declaration but through a typedef in another, doesn't care about the position of the const/volatile/signed/unsigned/long/short keywords nor about optional signed/int keywords, and only wants array lengths to be equal rather than spelled the same 
< 1773254978 254200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :way. 
< 1773255020 806818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(2) C++ insists that if two compilation units declare a struct/union with the same name in the same namespace then they must be compatible; C allows for different (incompatible) struct/union types in the same name as long as their definitions never meet in the same compilation units.
< 1773255124 36808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :To be clear, for C struct/union defined in two compilation units to be compatible, it still needs the name of the struct/union and the name of its members the same.
< 1773255331 852156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Afaiu, this means that if you have a set of C compilation units, then as far as global declarations are concerned, you can mostly convert them to C++ compilation units by putting different struct/union types into different namespaces, changing references to those struct/union types everywhere to refer to that namespace, then replacing all definitions of each struct/union with the exact same spelling of 
< 1773255337 861677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :that declaration. You'll have to replace arrays of runtime length with arrays of unspecified length, because arays of runtime length don't exist in C++. You're screwed if the C code uses _Atomic or C complex, because C++ doesn't have those features.
< 1773255455 533219 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also afaiu, nobody bothered to write a general standard for how you're supposed to use C and C++ together, such as when the declaration of a global function or object in a C compilation unit is compatible with that in a C++ compilation unit. You just have to hope that putting a struct/union in any namespace on the C++ side is fine. 
< 1773255476 405112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, also you have to mark functions extern "C" on the C++ side, that much is clear.
> 1773255578 774031 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07COSOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177573&oldid=123664 5* 03SirBrahms 5* (-3) 10Update Implementation Link
> 1773255656 172671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Sporeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177574&oldid=82558 5* 03Sporeball 5* (-139) 10clear
< 1773255796 89433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are rules at the machine code and ELF level documented, as in how these types of structures and functions are represented in compiled code, but those are much omre relaxed than the C or C++ level rules.
< 1773255858 244269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's kind of like a two chinas situation, nobody wants to write a documentation that refers to both C and C++ and define exactly how they combine.
< 1773255881 954948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But I think now I'm at least closer to understanding the expectations.
< 1773255996 99499 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1773256162 244681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :The complication is that the much more relaxed representation rules come into effect if you combine C with some other language, like export or call functions from rust or direct machine code. You don't give a full C type, so the same function that you implement in rust or assembly with a C-compatible interface could be referred to by multiple incompatible C declarations. If you want to make a C 
< 1773256168 251003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :implementation for a new platform that does more strict typechecking between compilation units, it will have to allow much more differences than even the relaxed C rules to accomodate functions not defined in C.
< 1773256226 78812 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This could be true even if you're adding extensions to an existing platform where object files can optionally contain more strict type information and that's checked across compilation units.
< 1773256259 892710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :You could still give *warnings* for when the C rules are broken across translation units of course.
< 1773256311 324482 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Presumably it should be defined so that if you write extern "C" then it will be compatible, although I don't know if this might need to change some of the C++ rules for that circumstance to make it compatible in this way.
< 1773256498 242480 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`unidecode d›e
< 1773256504 951026 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​[U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+009B <control>] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
< 1773256555 675323 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :This goes both ways by the way: whether you define a function in C and import it to rust or define a function in rust and import it to C, you have have multiple different rust declarations that are compatible with the same C declaration, and multiple different C declarations compatible with the same rust declaration. The names of struct/union and the names of their members don't need to match, for one, 
< 1773256561 684000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and there can be layers of rust wrappers such as transparent structs, MaybeUninit, UnsafeCell, and more. The three integer ranks int, long, long long don't correspond in a straightforward way to the three integer ranks in rust i32, isize, i64.
< 1773256714 799712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also a C pointer or const pointer can correspond to a rust raw mut pointer, raw const pointer, std::ptr::NonNull, reference, mut reference, Box.
< 1773256806 132471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :There are probably even some open-ended questions of some of the corners of how the C and rust memory models can interact.
< 1773257052 168695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so "twe" is actually quite common, e.g. "outweigh" or "retweet"
> 1773257061 62758 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Prehistory14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177575 5* 03Corbin 5* (+58) 10Redirecting for a commonly-visited humor page. Feel free to replace this.
< 1773257065 650444 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, and "between" although that's common enough to likely be in a dictionary
< 1773257069 122813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, but I think you convert it to "the" only at the start of words
< 1773257076 120693 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"twelve"
< 1773257110 148567 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :most of the complications around w is because it's logically a vowel but I had run out of space on the vowel wheel (l is more important)
< 1773257124 94732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes, I did say “you'd just need a short regex for exceptions for real words starting with ‘twe’, like twenty, twelve, etc.”
< 1773257133 229469 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right
< 1773257135 917066 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think there are too many of them
> 1773257141 78794 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Object-oriented paradigm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177576&oldid=169181 5* 03Corbin 5* (+33) 10/* See also */ Redlink a new topic. Because the number of topics here could be as many as several dozen, it's not appropriate to do the subsection/main-article wine-tasting approach that we have in e.g. [[computable]] or [[monoid]] or [[prehistory]].
< 1773257145 290680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be sure that we have them all
< 1773257185 857196 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"twerk" is in my /usr/share/dict/words but it's a comparatively new word that didn't exist a few decades ago
< 1773257196 122071 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it is reasonable to expect that new "twe" words may be coined
< 1773257199 122598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :too many of them if you insist on a full list of words; not too many if you're fine with prefixes, like anything starting with "twent" or "twelv" or "twelf", so you don't list each of "twentyone twentytwo twentythree twentyfour ... twentynine" separately
< 1773257306 242329 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com JOIN #esolangs Everything :Everything
> 1773257330 809433 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Sporeball14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177577&oldid=91661 5* 03Sporeball 5* (+69) 10update user page
< 1773257338 568219 :impomatic!~impomatic@lock-04-b2-v4wan-171175-cust377.vm10.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1773257365 892636 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, the fastest known typing method (stenotype) doesn't actually do very many strokes per second, the reason it's fast is that each stroke presses a lot of keys at once so there are millions of possible strokes, and most of the goal of the system is to create a method of assigning strokes to words that humans are able to memorize
< 1773257379 811673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: keep /^twe(nt|l[vf]|ak|e[dtnz]|erp/ 
< 1773257404 196198 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that has unbalanced parens I think?
< 1773257409 637970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yes
< 1773257414 205260 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: keep /^twe(nt|l[vf]|ak|e[dtnz]|erp)/ 
< 1773257460 992711 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that works for every word in my /usr/share/dict/words except "twerk"/"twerks" (which are new enough that they might not be in yours)
< 1773257482 642738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, I find I am more likely to make that sort of overlap-error at the end of a word rather than the start
< 1773257822 356581 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it is possible to make the transformation more conservative, covering only common words that start with "the" and keeping "twe" for anything dubious, in which case for some rare words that start with "the" you have to be careful not to overlap the "h" with the "e". it wouldn't be shorter to code the list, but it might be better for typing.
< 1773257835 633749 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the transformation of "twe" to "the" at the start of a word
< 1773258073 436670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like transform /^twe(at|[fimostwy]|/theen\W|nc|r\W|r[aem])/
< 1773258078 59353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :argh
< 1773258090 172970 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like transform /^twe(at|[fimostwy]|\W|nc|r\W|r[aem])/
< 1773258132 462738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :neither "twer" nor "ther" is a real word
< 1773258152 75253 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, but "ther" is closer
> 1773258171 58489 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Arbitrary memory emulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177578&oldid=175207 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+429) 10
< 1773258184 845098 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like if I were typing a non-word I would slow down and make sure to get the letters correct
< 1773258204 955821 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, you can keep that one as "twer", doesn't matter
< 1773258229 683343 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was testing my typing algorithm on #esolangs logs (in order to get a sufficient amount of plausible text that I hadn't seen before) and backspacing was basically only required for acronyms and the like
< 1773258239 378170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which I was typing out quite slowly as a consequence
< 1773258245 899409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the one tricky case is if what to do with "twee" as a full word, because "twee" is a real word but "thee" is a much more common real word
< 1773258295 238531 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not certain about your claims about relative frequency there – "thee" used to be very common but isn't very common nowadays
< 1773258295 641142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, that's still messed up
< 1773258307 821587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :transform /^twe(\W|at|[fimostwy]|n\W|nc|r[aem])/
< 1773258322 877957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"twen" is important to transport to "then", that's very common
< 1773258490 522490 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apparently "thee" is over 256 times as common as "twee" in Google Ngrams data, although it's likely biased by including a lot of old books
> 1773258500 245337 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Naked object14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=177579 5* 03Corbin 5* (+1078) 10Stub a niche concept from the OOP world.
< 1773258525 212550 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: hmm, I feel like "them" is just as likely a typo (probably more likely) but that's also a very common word so you couldn't correct it
< 1773258559 351075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry? why is "them" relevant?
< 1773258572 413007 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: if you overlap e and n rather than h and e
< 1773258598 613342 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1773258606 454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, do you mean type between "them" and "then" because the typer's fingers think that the "th" switches m/n even past the vowel?
< 1773258610 809213 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1773258663 952673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, it'll be easy to type "then" as "them"
< 1773258685 882596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not much you can do about close pairs like that unless you want to make the system much more complicated with lots of exceptional shortcuts
< 1773258713 382663 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: not the "th" switch beyond the vowel (although there was a bug in an earlier version that did that), but pressing the "n" before fully releasing the "e" due to typing quickly
< 1773258729 521613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :like you'll always have "we" vs "he", or "am" vs "an", "was" vs "has"
< 1773258739 182679 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess you could make it so that overlapping a consonant with a vowel on *both* sides turned it back to the original version
< 1773258766 609129 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1773259563 678744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Naked object14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177580&oldid=177579 5* 03Corbin 5* (+76) 10/* Examples */ Forgot one.
< 1773259587 295724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, so weird idea, what if you swap space and backspace, so ZL1 is space and ZR1 is backspace, and you no longer care about a vowel overlapping a consonant, but backspace works as a shift for secondary consonants (usually kmbzvwxd), and it backspaces only if you press and release it without any other button in between? 
< 1773259733 34141 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something similar with ZL1 is space, ZR1 is alternate consonant shift, ZL2 is backspace, and you put the digit mode and edit mode on either combinations or on the stick presses? the alternate consonant shift doesn't change the vowels, so you get some freedom in when exactly you press and release it in relation to other letters
< 1773260058 475209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :probably not good ideas but I think we at least have to consider it
< 1773260199 736770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm no, we can't multiplex backspace with alternate consonant shift because you said you want to hold backspace for deleting multiple characters and that would make the UI confusing
< 1773260902 901069 :ethan1!ethan@tilde.team PART #esolangs :WeeChat 4.7.1
< 1773261362 477238 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my earlier plans had an alt-consonant shift
< 1773261386 965843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I found it was awkward to synchronize it with the actual consonants
< 1773261416 729912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, that was before I came up with the two-wheel method with consonants on one hand and vowels on the other
< 1773261446 130219 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could multiplex it with forward space easily enough (tap the button with no other keys held for space, overlap it with a consonant to reach the second set of consonants)
< 1773261542 304942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :not really, you do wnat to overlap space with the last letter of the previous word often
> 1773265289 847787 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07G Sharp14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=177581&oldid=174541 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+60) 10
< 1773266948 388168 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
< 1773267300 4293 :Everything!~Everythin@172-232-54-192.ip.linodeusercontent.com QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1773270032 397478 :chloetax6!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
< 1773270121 611568 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1773270121 951587 :chloetax6!~chloe@user/chloetax NICK :chloetax
< 1773271136 834199 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: fwiw I realised that Start/Select are probably good buttons to use to leave edit mode entirely
< 1773271148 86201 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we don't need an option for that elsewhere
< 1773271690 419356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yeah, possibly
< 1773271841 286940 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooh, idea – the original idea of this was for a programming environment – could we create a programming language whose APIs only use the 16 primary letters?
< 1773271857 316278 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :few words seem to need the 10 rare ones
< 1773271898 11 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that way, typing the rare letters would only be required for string literals and comments
< 1773271945 215847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(even so, I think you'd want to use some API-and-type-driven technique for entering code, rather than typing it out, so the gain from 16-primary-letter APIs would just be in making the lists faster to filter)
< 1773272108 588993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so you'd make identifiers not only case-insensitive but also vowel sounding insensitive?
< 1773272120 585121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :case-insensitive and vocalisation-insensitive, yes
< 1773272157 335286 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although some of the pairs aren't voiced/unvoiced (e.g. mn are very similar but it's a different distinction from voicing, and wh aren't really the same letter at all)
< 1773272176 604524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah
< 1773272197 153986 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and c and g are both primary letters even though g is the voiced version of k and c is usually pronounced like k
< 1773272250 840172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :would "q" be considered equivalent to "h" or to "c"?
< 1773272273 153793 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was actually planning to just avoid the rare letters altogether
< 1773272276 65120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lipogram-style
< 1773272288 555523 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so what they would be equivalent to doesn't matter
< 1773272297 813880 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might be a bit weird to not have a .equals, though
< 1773272318 410990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1773272360 64694 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :would you also restrict which punctuation the language can use? because that would likely force you to use more alphabetic keywords or identifiers
< 1773272392 863863 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my current plans are that operators are equivalent to method calls
< 1773272401 371798 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you type the method name but it displays as the operator
< 1773272414 664941 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x + y would be x.add(y), perhaps, and the IDE can swap back and forth between them
< 1773272433 470075 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok, but even discounting that, some programming languages need a lot of punctuation characters
< 1773272471 669311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that said, I am increasingly thinking that it is wrong for a language to provide arithmetic operators, except perhaps if it is based around bignums – doing arithmetic correctly is difficult and has a lot of edge and corner cases that need specifying, and one operator isn't enough for that
< 1773272475 953930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you want to mark comments and string literals and stuff
< 1773272525 295362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the arithmetic can be just ordinary non-privilaged library functions, many languages these days do that
< 1773272528 923624 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1773272552 315227 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like you'd want a syntax that was mostly equivalent to Lisp's, but maybe rendered more nicely
< 1773272568 833723 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although, hmm, still want method chaining
< 1773272589 168398 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :x.add(y.add(z)) and the like is basically homoiconic but I don't think it's equivalent to either s-expressions or m-expressions
< 1773272610 697991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do want to cheat that a little bit in enchain in that the conditionals are built-in so the language knows about the integer type and that nonzero integers of that type are truthy, but the rest of arithmetic are just ordinary functions 
< 1773272642 647532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in there's only one integer type that you can use for conditionals directly
< 1773272663 830973 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :enchain is compile-time typed
< 1773272707 465759 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, how does an if statement work in this syntax
< 1773272713 218093 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a.if(b, c)
< 1773272721 478352 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :would need either CBN or a special case to work properly, but it seems fine
< 1773272725 841210 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1773272810 929882 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have to be careful about this because this is one of those decisions that I can't just change in a later language extension -- I very much want to make just a first version of Enchain that later versions can extend, though in practice (1) I probably won't bother to actually make those extensions and (2) even if I do I'll probably make some of them incompatible, but I want to at least try
< 1773272830 345651 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe the right special case is that methods can choose to be CBN and doing that is marked by the IDE at the callsite, even though the syntax doesn't technically change
< 1773272868 658269 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess there's always the closure option of a.if(||b, ||c) but that's terrible :-D
< 1773273016 570859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah, there are all sorts of different solutions for this. smalltalk/ruby/postscript/GML makes it easy to pass closures to such functions. haskell is call by name. scheme makes if a built-in but gives a macro system so you can define macros with interface similar to that built-in. 
< 1773273050 425595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Haskell is call-by-need, which doesn't work for a while statement (but Haskell can't meaningfully express a traditional while statement anyway due to not having side effects in the traditional sense)
< 1773273082 235428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh, I just realised that TCL is basically call-by-name, except for strings
< 1773273097 538268 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and integers but those are also strings)
< 1773273138 252443 :amby!~ambylastn@host-78-151-24-174.as13285.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
< 1773273572 863493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :prolog has an awkward mixture where functions like , and ; and -> take code as their arguments, but it's still awkward to write a while loop