There is no real beginning, nor is there a real end. Everything is just a cycle. 1777199588 889331 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter 1314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180662&oldid=177736 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+97) 10 < 1777199840 6350 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1777199846 278749 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1777201287 942424 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1777202958 304210 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:cd5b:d1b:6ab:4974 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777203229 435573 :amby!~ambylastn@79-77-117-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN #esolangs * :realname > 1777203508 949072 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QLTYE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180663&oldid=180636 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+205) 10 > 1777204840 989226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Timm14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180664&oldid=179409 5* 03Timm 5* (+18) 10 < 1777206406 376676 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1777206551 677556 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Cerdef 5* 10New user account > 1777206633 385717 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Duodecem14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180665 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+296) 10Created page with "it's impossible to translate any more. but we can just use the whole page to translate and do meta-1, meta-2 and so on. Once some meta-x is too short, we can translate the meta-x page again to get 2-1, 2-2,... ~~~~" > 1777206875 882496 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Cleverxia 5* 10moved [[02Queje10]] to [[Stjck]]: the specification changed, and it is no longer based on queues. > 1777207086 600232 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Stjck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180668&oldid=180666 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+204) 10 > 1777207121 534979 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Queje14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180669&oldid=180667 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (-19) 10no longer a redirect > 1777207169 309705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cleverxia14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180670&oldid=180611 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+0) 10/* Current Esolangs I've created */ the name changed > 1777207450 473878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180671&oldid=177786 5* 03Ractangle 5* (-17) 10/* Examples */ < 1777207460 627429 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777209493 54308 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1777213133 871549 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777213254 624294 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1777215681 221385 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1777216975 774671 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1777217891 94709 :jinn6!jan6@tilde.team/user/jan6 JOIN #esolangs jinn6 :genThey're Advocatus Diaboli < 1777222841 818409 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777223900 863784 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I've figured out a naked-objects browser for Vixen. It's extensional; I ask objects to answer five methods (name, description, methods, files, objects) and generate a GUI for them. Right now I've generated a Web app and I'm adding more functionality to the shell. < 1777223956 152667 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm starting to notice patterns in what I've previously developed. Cammy has an object browser and a REPL. In Cammy, if you click on something that has the type of a pixel-maker (the "attitude" of "pictures") then the Web browser will show you the rendered pixels in addition to the AST. < 1777224003 987174 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The pixels are like an extensional model for the pixel-making expression. The methods are like an extensional model for directories-as-objects. < 1777224960 226192 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User < 1777227124 112032 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname > 1777228224 967847 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Memristor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180672 5* 03Miui 5* (+563) 10Created page with "Memristor is a language for describing OOP using hardware description language that is understood to be gradient to an interval of hysteresis pinch. The esolang [[User:Miui]] found handy was an ehdl (esoteric hardware description language) that looks like this
{| < 1777228499 144661 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name) < 1777228886 225716 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.105.248 JOIN #esolangs * :11,8aadenboy — it's pronounced [ˈejËŒdÉ›nbÉ < 1777228893 677753 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.105.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :good morning < 1777229122 747624 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777229191 831703 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.105.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unless I just haven't been paying enough attention, there seems to be an influx in AI-generated esolangs < 1777229209 851724 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.105.248 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least this year/few months alone > 1777229415 958253 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Memristor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180673&oldid=180672 5* 03Miui 5* (+21) 10 > 1777229470 642125 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:LynChern/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180674&oldid=180637 5* 03LynChern 5* (+294) 10/* */ > 1777229510 430917 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:LynChern/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180675&oldid=180674 5* 03LynChern 5* (+0) 10/* */ > 1777229520 956794 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:LynChern/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180676&oldid=180675 5* 03LynChern 5* (-13) 10/* */ > 1777229855 449630 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Miui14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180677&oldid=180635 5* 03Miui 5* (-103) 10/* current scope */ > 1777229904 562652 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:LynChern/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180678&oldid=180676 5* 03LynChern 5* (+163) 10/* */ > 1777229923 308575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:LynChern/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180679&oldid=180678 5* 03LynChern 5* (-2) 10/* */ > 1777230473 578700 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Memristor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180680&oldid=180673 5* 03Miui 5* (+61) 10/* See also */ < 1777230490 32236 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.105.248 QUIT :Quit: goodbye for now! back another day < 1777230519 113036 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 JOIN #esolangs * :11,8aadenboy — it's pronounced [ˈejËŒdÉ›nbÉ < 1777230898 621438 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1777231193 850378 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User > 1777231548 475259 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Memristor14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180681 5* 03Miui 5* (+98) 10Created page with "[[User:Miui]] found the interpreter here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shakespeare#External_resources." > 1777231665 628038 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Fantzy 5* 10New user account > 1777231781 108235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Memristor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180682&oldid=180681 5* 03Miui 5* (+36) 10 > 1777231987 191778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Memristor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180683&oldid=180682 5* 03Miui 5* (+38) 10 < 1777232806 688857 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: indeed < 1777232817 710866 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although it's more like an influx in AI-written pages that look like esolang specs < 1777232824 364238 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1777232839 274738 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on closer examination, many of them don't describe actual esolangs, they just look like they do < 1777232878 752057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh, a lot of the old pages were like that too, that's not really a change < 1777232907 41210 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm still trying to make out what to do with pages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_bliss-pit < 1777232928 158260 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: so I think there are two basic categories of pages on the wiki that appear to describe esolangs < 1777232953 628472 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one of them is where an actual language exists, and the page is trying to give details on the language; some of these are very light on details, e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jelly < 1777232994 329250 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and the other is where someone has written about a hypothetical language as though it were real – the "lesser-known programming languages" is one of the oldest examples of this < 1777233012 983799 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although in many cases an actual language was designed based on the description) < 1777233021 217513 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh, TURKEY BOMB is another good example of the latter sort < 1777233056 289207 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that basically all of the first category of pages are desirable (although in the case of an AI-generated language we would want a non-AI-written description of it) < 1777233068 569178 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the latter category, much of it we don't want, but I think it would be wrong to exclude all of it < 1777233204 256988 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wow, [A bliss-pit] achieves near-fungot levels of coherence. < 1777233235 410707 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, the author seemed to have a narrative in mind (fungot usually doesn't) < 1777233281 830688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_bliss-pit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xkcd_1537 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xkcd_1537 are of the latter kind, there's no actual language that they don't describe; so is https://esolangs.org/wiki/PL/MIX < 1777233382 753844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It's clearly miscategorized. But it's a failure even as an attempt of off-topic entertainment. Just awkwardly punning a few esolang keywords just isn't enough :-/ < 1777233398 759123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd is an empty page that looks like it never even tried to describe a language < 1777233398 797818 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I feel like, for non-languages, the value of the page depends on a) whether anyone's likely to expand it into a real language, b) whether people are likely to want to discover more information about it. c) how good the joke is < 1777233435 710338 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( "Why did I read this." ) > 1777233489 763862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10moved [[02Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd10]] to [[Talk:Spellblocks]]: Revert move renaming a page to a random title is not a good way to try to delete it, it just means that you end up with more pages that need deleting > 1777233489 811436 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02Talk:Spellblocks10]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd]]" < 1777233508 814936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :TBH I don't think the problem here is to decide what *should* be done with such pages. It's finding the bandwidth to actually moderate all the new crap. < 1777233537 331520 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the problem is finding the boundary < 1777233557 522547 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1777233560 344421 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1777233573 888163 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the reasoning for "I ran this page describing an esolang through some translation tools and laughed at the result" being deletable, but something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Vaguest not being so? < 1777233609 305355 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the PL/MIX page should probably stay because it is something that people might potentially want to look up < 1777233656 159150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Well if we want to allow good jokes, it will be subjective. < 1777233684 175837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :[Vaguest] kind of works on a meta level but I don't think anyone would miss it ;-) < 1777233688 134417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, PL/MIX is one of those cases where Knuth's failures are more interesting than an ordinary programmer's successes, so they're worth to document < 1777233701 139505 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1777233703 134573 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I proposed a basic boundary: https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Corbin/Spring_cleaning < 1777233802 185639 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that isn't really a boundary, that's just a list of pages < 1777233816 308952 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it presents a couple of principles, but even those are not generalisable to things they don't directly cover < 1777233857 58353 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: I guess I'm not convinced that any written-by-AI pages are interesting. < 1777233872 911840 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: that is a principle but I don't think it's a dividing line < 1777233901 94841 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things like "is this page describing an actual language" are potential dividing lines, but may not be in the right place < 1777233921 342545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION shrugs
< 1777233941 489360 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(it should be noted that in theory, any executable that doesn't interpret a practical language can be considered to be an esolang interpreter – so if the AI has made an executable to go with the language spec, a language theoretically exists, although it may not have anything to do with the specification) < 1777233964 942196 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I agree that it's a bandwidth problem. It'd be quite frustrating if this were a problem of boundaries and dividing lines when one of my items is merely to delete a user's second sandbox. < 1777234012 430299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...Would you find an article interesting if I assured you that I generated it with a d20? What's the burden of proof for that? < 1777234227 193931 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: the wiki (at least originally) wasn't so much about "interesting" as about "preserving information" – one of the things that is hardest for me to deal with as an admin is when someone comes up with an idea for a language, posts it to the wiki, decides it was a bad idea and tries to delete it (but other people may have been interested in it and want to find out what the language is like) < 1777234254 948680 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a sense, documenting the useless or bad ideas is particularly important to stop people wasting time trying to track down details on a wild goose chase < 1777234307 430146 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a great example is https://esolangs.org/wiki/IMAGERY which I found an interesting source of inspiration despite there clearly being no useful language there < 1777234333 230435 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I feel that most edits are citogenic at best, though; they aren't documenting the past, but imagining a hypothetical future. < 1777234343 39083 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(in particular, I realised that the rule 110 interpreter potentially *does* generalise and it would be possible to generate "rules for an esolang" that would happen, if given a picture of a running cellular automaton, to extend the picture) < 1777234443 64828 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Wikis used to have a natural filter that's now broken though: A person would have to be inspired enough by an idea to write an article about it. Now all these parts are optional. < 1777234448 728325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(discounting spam) < 1777234493 216624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :So unfortunately, even if "preserve everything" was the idea in the past, I don't think it works in this LLM era. < 1777234513 810875 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: there's been a few times where I've done that, but I've only moved it to userspace instead so I can still think or reflect about it if time comes, and I've been tacking on other ideas I am not fully confident with in the same area as well < 1777234536 678318 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: I am OK with a move to userspace, it is clear what happened and no information is lost < 1777234570 82652 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am less OK with people doing things like "deleting" a page by renaming it to the name of the next page they are creating and overwriting it, meaning that the same page contains the history of all the pages they've ever deleted < 1777234585 819904 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because it is confusing to work out what happened and an extreme pain to undo as an admin < 1777234615 90245 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus broken/irrelevant redirects < 1777234646 170115 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: I think probably the best solution to AI-generated languages is to redirect to a list of them describing the basic idea (especially given that the details don't really matter due to having been randomly generated and are often self-contradictory) < 1777234651 604024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(TBH I'm rather detached from this, because there's a strong filter between the wiki and my access to it: Usually I only end up there because I follow some link (usually from IRC) or from one page to another. Oh and I guess the occasional search engine hit.) < 1777234683 394586 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really we would want a list describing the name of the language idea and the prompt used to create a specification < 1777234912 58898 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: anyway I really have been wanting to put up a draft policy to allow more page deletions (in particular I also want user-editable pages to be deleted unless there's evidence that they have actually created a viable language), but I have failed to do so due to a lack of mental bandwidth (both in general and due to having higher-priority things to do on the rare occasions that I have sufficient mental bandwidth to do anything at all) < 1777235206 871906 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION suddenly realises that AI-generated languages should probably be merged into the list of ideas
< 1777235264 11427 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :…because the only useful part of the page is the idea < 1777235283 700738 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :. o O ( assuming there was one ) < 1777235302 114264 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like I fully believe that some of these prompts are just "make an esolang" < 1777235324 386171 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and maybe a few templates and instructions about style < 1777235454 837502 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: Well, thanks to the magic of chronic unemployment in a crumbling economy, I have plenty of bandwidth for drafting policies. I can leave them on the relevant talk pages. < 1777235556 625846 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat < 1777236150 915213 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a JOIN #esolangs fungot :fungot-0.1 < 1777236178 605828 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Saw the "near-fungot levels of coherence" comment and it made me realize it was gone again. < 1777236179 101871 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: the coyotos folks sadly turned down transparent persistence at a level of indirection. kawa compiles to a simplified bfm subset, which itself is used with mhp? < 1777236443 970383 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kawa? < 1777236454 710177 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my esolang... < 1777236533 299020 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :I suspect it's about the Scheme implementation instead. < 1777236657 283918 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The "irc" style includes material from the #scheme channel as well. And nothing from the last decade.) < 1777236679 414755 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm < 1777237471 101990 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether giving fungot a new decade of material would even help < 1777237471 397070 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: mm. that's funny, it *didn't* bother me at first blush, riastradh, for your information < 1777237518 296720 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might produce more recognizable nicks :P < 1777237534 254534 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :other than that, I suspect the answer is no < 1777237636 311070 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: what do you think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Windy ? an LLM was clearly involved somewhere but it is much more coherent than the typical LLM-written page < 1777237661 718947 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:3cbd:46b5:a3b9:7ed1 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1777237683 340218 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't yet determined whether it's actually a language or whether it's something that does a really good job of looking like an esolang spec without being one < 1777237714 444902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Maybe there's a useful distinction to be made between LLM-generated and LLM-edited. < 1777237862 600406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(The difficulty is to tell those apart. And there's a philosophical question related to the infinite monkeys thing: If you generate something using an LLM, read it, and decide it's interesting... is that enough of a filter to make it suitable?) < 1777238092 974130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The language has 35 opcodes total." -- it's such a terrible idea to put this into a language description ;-) (I counted 44) < 1777238201 546932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some details are bad. What is the "Arbitrary precision throughout" subsection saying? < 1777238247 997598 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really the "correct" things to do with this sort of language are to reverse-engineer the spec from the implementation < 1777238257 186574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that is a lot of effort that it's unreasonable to ask any given person to put in < 1777238307 598181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Speed, like the stack, is BigInt" < 1777238342 924912 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's more likely to be written by a human than a computer, but I'm not sure < 1777238354 827665 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh, it's really pretty bad when you get to the details. Could be purely LLM generated with something contemporary that "thinks" a lot. < 1777238378 427301 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or maybe there *is* human direction at the high level. Who knows! < 1777238455 711401 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :It says "sparse grid" but never defines what that means < 1777238489 625143 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I think I know what that means, but it is a sign of AI – it is confusing the specification with the implementation, which AIs do a lot more than humans do (but humans do sometimes too) < 1777238619 375222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it claims TC-ness but it's unclear how unbounded coordinates would contribute to that. (speeds are too limited to do interesting interceptions with the "collision merge"). It's probably TC purely because you can fit a 2 register Minsky machine. < 1777238821 304845 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, I'm wrong, it has random access into *something*. < 1777238994 439324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :Eh. That raises different questions though: what happens if a written value is not a Unicode point? < 1777239047 404720 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't this basically the same issue that Funge-98 implementations have? < 1777239129 2755 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: It is coherent but also junk, if that makes sense? < 1777239134 590029 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh and if you write a '>', and then read, will that give back '>' or '→'... < 1777239168 26788 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: the sensible way to interpret the article is that any > in the source code gets macro-replaced to → before the program even starts to run < 1777239178 593340 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might not be what the implementation actually does, of course < 1777239186 884700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so, some of what I wrote was wrong (I missed the `p` and `g` instructions) but it's still annoying how much things fall apart when you try to delve into the details < 1777239238 544918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: well, it says "the printed form" < 1777239255 52690 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(at least in one place) < 1777239268 358398 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't like it. < 1777239323 433833 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's probably substantial enough to deserve a place on the wiki? Maybe with a warning to treat it as a concept rather than a specification :P) < 1777239424 392011 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1777239429 396788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: regarding the sparse thing... the usual way we'd do this is to say that there's an infinite grid and all but a finite part is initially filled with spaces < 1777239440 808175 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :(said finite part is given by the source code) < 1777239466 105919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the sparseness is an implementation detail that has no place in a specification < 1777239602 242538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: agreed, I was talking about how the specification is confused with an implementation < 1777239623 632636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, yes < 1777241076 218925 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sometimes those implementation details can make it easier for the reader to understand the rules of the language < 1777241088 321850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps not in thise case though < 1777241878 651230 :aadenboy!~aadenboy@172.56.107.160 QUIT :Quit: goodbye for now! back another day < 1777243056 543127 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK so I think the issue is that there isn't a straightforward/simple answer to this sort of thing, and I don't have the mental energy to work out a complicated one < 1777243639 754210 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The repository for that thing might be the first one I've seen those "X and claude" attributions outside of screenshots. < 1777243641 181985 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(There's a SPEC.md file in it that's more detailed than the wiki article, by the way.) < 1777244144 349902 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Funge-98 requires the Funge-Space cells to use the same data type as the Stack Stack, and for that type to be a signed integer type that's at least strongly suggested if not required to be bounded. It doesn't define how characters are encoded in source files. < 1777244528 912580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: why? can't putting to funge-space just truncate values? there's enough stack manipulation that the program can encode a bigger integer from the stack to multiple funge cells < 1777245016 499949 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :The spec doesn't say why, but it's very explicit about that being the case. < 1777245029 753061 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :"The important thing is that the stack cells have the same memory size as the Funge-Space cells." < 1777245053 201002 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :It could just be because that's more convenient for the programmer. < 1777245151 527625 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I see < 1777245359 822115 :emery!~quassel@217.155.30.169 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1777245585 379847 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I'm pretty sure that cpressey decided that bignum Funge-98 didn't violate the spec (or at least that the spec should be modified to allow it), although it probably wasn't part of the initial plans < 1777245622 529258 :emery!~quassel@217.155.30.169 JOIN #esolangs ehmry :Emery