00:09:15 <fizzie> I ran that last command from the command line, and it produced the following output: https://zem.fi/tmp/cpm-out.txt
00:09:26 <fizzie> Not sure why that wouldn't have been captured when executed by the bot, though in general the output handling via UML fake terminal devices can get a little quirky.
00:10:16 <fizzie> Yeah, there's no output if I add a `| cat` at the end.
00:11:03 <fizzie> Which usually means something along the chain switched from unbuffered or line-buffered output into a fully-buffered mode, did not complete a full block of output, and then terminated due to the timeout.
00:29:10 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2026-03.html#lAC is wrong, it's called Rem instead of Mod because the method isn't called mod because mod is a keyword for making namespaces in Rust.
00:35:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, line-buffering is the fault of the /hackenv/bin/\` and /hackenv/bin/\`\` commands, because those invoke the rnooodl filter that's implemented in a silly way and only lets through full lines. I was considering to replace them with a better implementation at some point, but eventually hadn't done it.
00:36:40 <b_jonas> `` (w=25; echo -n $s$' hello\nworld'; sleep $w)
00:36:47 <b_jonas> `` (w=35; echo -n $s$' hello\nworld'; sleep $w)
00:37:31 <b_jonas> `` (w=15; echo -n $s$' hello\nworld'; sleep $w)
00:38:30 <b_jonas> `run echo run hello; echo -n world; sleep 35
00:38:59 <b_jonas> `` echo backtick hello; echo -n world; sleep 35
00:41:32 <b_jonas> Sgeo: ^ the \` or \`` commands might swallow output if their command times out. use a different command if this may be a problem, or save important output to a file.
00:44:30 <fizzie> The output in question had more than one line, though.
00:46:08 <fizzie> There's in general a thing in C <stdio.h> facilities that the standard output stream becomes fully buffered if the output is not an interactive device, which isn't something the receiving end of the pipe has any control over.
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00:55:32 <fizzie> Though it is probably true that that's unrelated to what was eating the output there, because as I recall, umlbox itself by default will make the output of the executed command be a pipe (with the rationale that some commands may switch to a more IRC-friendly output when that's the case).
00:56:28 <fizzie> `run echo -e '#include <stdio.h> \n #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { printf("default\\nfully\\nbuffered\\n"); sleep(35); }' | gcc -x c - -o /tmp/x && /tmp/x
00:56:48 <fizzie> `run echo -e '#include <stdio.h> \n #include <unistd.h> \n int main(void) { printf("overridden\\nto\\nunbuffered\\n"); sleep(35); }' | gcc -x c - -o /tmp/x && stdbuf -o0 /tmp/x
00:57:24 <HackEso> overridden \ to \ unbuffered
00:59:03 <fizzie> On a mostly unrelated note, there should possibly be some sort of an extra marker that the timeout ended up getting triggered.
01:26:11 <fizzie> Oh, the umlbox behavior was a little subtler than that. The Python side does `cat_output=not os.isatty(1)`, and the init binary then adds a built-in pipe into cat if that's set. So it may still play a role here, because as mentioned I get that output when calling umlbox from the command line, but not when I pipe that into cat, neither of which involves rnooodl.
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01:37:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: the examples above show that `` might eat output even if it's more than one line if the command times out though, so it's not *just* lines
01:38:51 <b_jonas> `` /bin/echo hello; /bin/echo -n world; sleep 35 # invoking /bin/echo to make sure they definitely flush after printing
01:39:16 <b_jonas> what is eating the input is the rnooodle filter
01:39:45 <b_jonas> `` /bin/echo hello; /bin/echo -n world; sleep 15
01:40:17 <b_jonas> `run /bin/echo run hello; /bin/echo -n world; sleep 35
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01:51:32 <Sgeo> ???? what's with the dots
01:51:33 <Sgeo> `run echo -e "TYPE ELIZA.BAS\n" >/hackenv/tmp/cpmrun.txt; cd /hackenv/cpm2.d/; PATH=/usr/bin /hackenv/bin/altairz80l64 run; cat /hackenv/tmp/cpmrun.txt
01:52:18 <HackEso> \ Altair 8800 (Z80) simulator Open SIMH V4.1-0 Current git commit id: 10003113 \ . \ 64K CP/M Version 2.2 (SIMH ALTAIR 8800, BIOS V1.27, 2 HD, 02-May-2009). \ . \ A>TYPE ELIZA.BAS.. \ 5 \ . \ A>
02:03:17 <b_jonas> dunno, I think those might be coming from something you installed
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02:13:45 <Sgeo> The mainframe turnkeys are on the orders of hundreds of megs, that's probably too much
02:15:57 <Sgeo> DOS/VS is ~64MB, don't know if it has PL/I on it
02:16:13 <Sgeo> Might be a good excuse to learn DOS/VS though
02:23:27 <fizzie> CRLF newlines, most likely.
02:23:48 <fizzie> HackEso translates the characters \x00, \x01 and \r into '.'.
02:24:56 <b_jonas> `perl -e'print"0\x00r\rn\ne"'
02:25:09 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint"0\x00r\rn\ne"
02:45:04 <Sgeo> Someone is chatting with me and is telling me how limited that PL/I is
02:53:08 <Sgeo> https://github.com/rcornwell/sims/blob/master/IBM360/DOS.txt exists
03:23:45 <esolangs> [[ReversibleFerrariMSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181164&oldid=180760 * Miui * (+191) /* Cobra Cardog execution */
03:31:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:OwOlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181165 * CodePentuplets48 * (+112) Created page with "<nowiki>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=</nowiki>"
03:33:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:OwOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181166&oldid=181165 * CodePentuplets48 * (+139) /* Typo I noticed */ new section
03:33:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:OwOlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181167&oldid=181166 * CodePentuplets48 * (-251) Blanked the page
03:36:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:HAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181168&oldid=96139 * CodePentuplets48 * (+181) /* Typo I just fixed */ new section
03:37:29 <esolangs> [[HAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181169&oldid=101831 * CodePentuplets48 * (+0)
03:45:55 <esolangs> [[ReversibleFerrariMSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181170&oldid=181164 * Miui * (+6) /* Hello, World! */
03:50:36 <esolangs> [[ReversibleFerrariMSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181171&oldid=181170 * Miui * (+92) /* See Also */
03:52:16 <esolangs> [[Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181172&oldid=181047 * Miui * (-94) /* 2. GNU Multi-precision Arithmetic */
03:53:45 <esolangs> [[Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181173&oldid=181172 * Miui * (-8) /* 2. GNU Multi-precision Arithmetic */
03:54:44 <esolangs> [[ReversibleFerrariMSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181174&oldid=181171 * Miui * (+23) /* racecar workers and Ferrari services */
03:56:00 <esolangs> [[Mental Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181175&oldid=180503 * Miui * (+19)
03:58:34 <esolangs> [[Memristor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181176&oldid=180935 * Miui * (+56)
04:02:00 <esolangs> [[A bliss-pit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181177&oldid=180872 * Miui * (+41) /* See also */
04:03:36 <esolangs> [[Cain and Abel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181178&oldid=180936 * Miui * (+21)
04:04:21 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181179&oldid=180919 * Miui * (+22)
04:04:52 <esolangs> [[Abysys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181180&oldid=180923 * Miui * (+22)
04:07:05 <esolangs> [[Translated /PSTF Again4]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181181&oldid=150368 * Miui * (+38)
04:11:06 <esolangs> [[Old Joe's Milkshake]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181182&oldid=180972 * Miui * (+83)
04:45:18 <Sgeo> https://sky-visions.com/IBM360/ looks... promising
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04:47:46 <Sgeo> Except for S370. That does not look promising.
04:48:03 <Sgeo> But I know how to use vm and I hope IBM360 works with these
05:29:13 <esolangs> [[Mental Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181183&oldid=181175 * Miui * (+30)
05:32:29 <esolangs> [[ReversibleFerrariMSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181184&oldid=181174 * Miui * (+19)
05:34:41 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181185&oldid=161677 * Miui * (+56)
05:42:05 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181186&oldid=181150 * Miui * (+382) /* favorite esoquotes */
05:47:00 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181187&oldid=149254 * Salpynx * (+22) "Shameful" is part of this language's history, removing the necessarily non-existent category breaks multiple references on talk pages and elsewhere
05:49:09 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181188&oldid=181179 * Miui * (+364)
05:50:09 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181189&oldid=181188 * Miui * (+22)
05:57:17 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181190&oldid=181186 * Miui * (+20)
05:59:24 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181191&oldid=181189 * Miui * (+60)
06:02:16 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181192&oldid=181191 * Miui * (+112) /* Genotype */
06:04:24 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181193&oldid=181192 * Miui * (+45) /* Genotype */
06:06:34 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181194&oldid=181193 * Miui * (+22) /* See also */
06:08:05 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181195&oldid=181194 * Miui * (-40)
06:12:33 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181196&oldid=181195 * Miui * (+225)
06:15:01 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181197&oldid=181196 * Miui * (+27) /* See also */
06:19:27 <esolangs> [[Matrioshka language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181198&oldid=98143 * Miui * (+21)
06:21:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Matrioshka language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181199&oldid=145832 * Miui * (+49) /* Thematic Concept */ new section
06:25:05 <esolangs> [[Cain and Abel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181200&oldid=181178 * Miui * (-8) /* girls & plants */
06:26:42 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181201&oldid=181197 * Miui * (+2) /* Speciosa */
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06:37:07 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181202&oldid=181201 * Miui * (+153)
06:37:47 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181203&oldid=181202 * Miui * (-1) /* Program forms */
06:38:54 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181204&oldid=178850 * Ractangle * (+58)
06:39:09 <esolangs> [[Data and the Nymphir]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181205&oldid=181203 * Miui * (+12) /* Program forms */
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09:59:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mechazawa * New user account
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13:37:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181206&oldid=181163 * Miui * (+54) /* Candidates */
13:37:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181207&oldid=181206 * Miui * (-1) /* =Characteristics */
13:39:49 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181208&oldid=181207 * Miui * (+51) /* Candidates */
13:51:55 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181209&oldid=181208 * Miui * (+245) /* Characterization of Miracle langs: */
13:52:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181210&oldid=181209 * Miui * (+2) /* Characteristics */
13:53:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181211&oldid=181210 * Miui * (+6) /* Characteristics */
13:59:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181212&oldid=181211 * Miui * (+127) /* Characterization of Miracle langs: */
14:00:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181213&oldid=181212 * Miui * (-1) /* =result */
14:07:29 <esolangs> [[Usernames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181214&oldid=180992 * PrySigneToFry * (+846)
14:12:22 <esolangs> [[Python]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181215&oldid=178583 * PrySigneToFry * (+387)
14:13:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181216&oldid=181213 * Miui * (-14) /* Adjacent + Real */
14:14:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181217&oldid=181216 * Miui * (-24) /* Adjacent + Real */
14:17:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181218&oldid=181217 * Miui * (+87) /* Meronym */
14:18:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181219&oldid=181218 * Miui * (+35) /* result */
14:21:36 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181220&oldid=181153 * PrySigneToFry * (+182)
14:26:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181221&oldid=181219 * Miui * (+213) /* Realization */
14:30:59 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181222 * Miui * (+2967) Created page with "'''Linguistic Category:Math'''! A Language! Comedic! Scientific! == Category proposal. == Apologies for the few mentions I've accrued in the past few weeks. I've been using a mobile device and its a bit troublesome getting my work edited properly with it
14:31:38 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181223&oldid=181222 * Miui * (+1) /* Language */
14:32:12 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181224&oldid=181223 * Miui * (-329) /* Category proposal. */
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14:35:15 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181225&oldid=181224 * Miui * (-8)
14:35:59 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181226&oldid=181225 * Miui * (+19)
14:37:04 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181227&oldid=181226 * Miui * (+59)
14:43:59 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181228&oldid=138689 * Miui * (+24) test
14:45:39 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181229&oldid=170955 * Miui * (+24) implemented Miraculous
14:46:44 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181230&oldid=181190 * Miui * (+60) /* eternal scope */
14:47:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Linguistic Category:Math]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181231 * Miui * (+54) Created page with "not a joke just the name of the category type language"
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14:55:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181232&oldid=181155 * Miui * (+376) /* Category::Antimiraculous */
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15:15:49 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181233&oldid=181035 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+448) re-add kasane and skilsaw
15:49:39 <korvo> Somebody please fix [[User:ProjectEuler]], a program form that has become attached to a user for some reason.
16:14:41 <esolangs> [[Project Euler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181234&oldid=138686 * Aadenboy * (-31) can't seem to move with this in the way even though it's a redirect...
16:15:09 <esolangs> [[Project Euler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181235&oldid=181234 * Aadenboy * (+38) testing
16:15:35 <esolangs> [[Project Euler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181236&oldid=181235 * Aadenboy * (-7) Changed redirect target from [[Project Euler (language)]] to [[User:ProjectEuler]]
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16:40:53 <ais523> b_jonas: voicing-insensitive identifiers seemed like a pretty unlikely reason to name the trait Rem rather than Mod anyway :-D
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16:52:09 <b_jonas> we need a file system mount option, a compiler setting for Fortran (we have to figure out the interaction with implicitly declared variables because normally a variable whose name starts with K defaults to integer but one whose names starts with G defaults to float), and a linker
16:53:11 <b_jonas> oh, and a casefolding rule for IRC, which would apply to channel names and usernames. it's fine if it doesn't apply to channel mode or user mode letters, those are already case sensitive when channel names and usernames are case insensitive.
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16:55:03 <b_jonas> and maybe a third set of abbreviations of SI units and prefixes, with some way to distinguish between milli, micro, nano, and mega.
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17:13:31 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181237&oldid=181229 * Ais523 * (-24) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/1812
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17:14:02 <esolangs> [[User:ProjectEuler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181238&oldid=181228 * Ais523 * (-24) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/181228|181228]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) rm addition of unapproved category
17:20:54 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181239&oldid=181227 * Miui * (+317)
17:21:25 <b_jonas> I guess a compiler could have several different case folding settings for different kinds of identifiers, each of which you could set to case-sensitive, case-insensitive, case-and-voice-insensitive. you'd have one for names local to the compilation unit, one for extern names, one for what rule to assume the linker will use (so that eg. the compiler mangles fortran function names to lowercase), one for C
17:21:31 <b_jonas> struct/union tags (which supposedly have to match across compilation units, but in practice aren't mangled so only a sufficiently smart link-time optimizer will care about), one for C++ struct type names, one for C++ typedef names (where one name could have a different meaning in different compilation units, but if one is used inside the definition of a struct then they do have to match), etc.
17:22:51 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181240&oldid=181239 * Miui * (+30)
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18:04:41 <korvo> Not to sound like a deletionist but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Presumptive_removal_of_AI-generated_content
18:35:11 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181241&oldid=181240 * Miui * (+142) /* Usecase */
18:36:51 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181242&oldid=181241 * Miui * (+65) /* Usecase */
18:39:38 <ais523> korvo: there is a lot of incomprehensible content being added to the wiki recently, and I partly blame you for it – most people can't distinguish between writing everything in terms of category-theoretic terminology without further explanation, and whatever User:Miui is doing
18:40:01 <ais523> ideally Esolang would be written in a way that people can understand without specialist training, as it has a lot of enthusiastic amateurs
18:41:06 <esolangs> [[Linguistic Category:Math]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181243&oldid=181242 * Miui * (+4) /* Hello, World */ !&
18:41:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Baudot * New user account
18:42:42 <korvo> ais523: I'm happy to leave. I'm also happy to see everything I write be replaced. But, like, what an attitude to have when LLM-powered chatbots are *right there* as a culprit.
18:42:54 <ais523> korvo: I wasn't talking about LLM-created pages in that
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18:42:57 <ais523> those have their own issues
18:43:07 <ais523> I do think you're a net positive to the wiki
18:43:15 <ais523> but I also think you struggle to understand most of the other users on it
18:43:18 <korvo> I think Miui and PSTF are using some sort of machine translator. I don't care whether we call it LLMs or chatbots.
18:43:34 <ais523> I didn't get that impression from Miui at all
18:43:57 <ais523> (as in, I think their content is intentionally designed to be that incomprehensible, as opposed to it being a side effect of machine translation)
18:44:06 <ais523> machine-translations don't attempt to use seventh-level headings, for example
18:44:44 <korvo> I don't really struggle to understand. I accept that understanding is impossible in general and try to be receptive to criticism.
18:45:59 <korvo> (If you mean, "why don't you care about other people", I already completely destroyed my personality twice. I'm just not interested in the social aspects of life anymore. I'm only spending my time on incorrectness and misconceptions now.)
18:46:01 <ais523> part of the reason the wiki is a mess is that I have been struggling with mental health and trying to come up with a good way to fix it is going to be a lot of effort
18:46:22 <ais523> and hardly any of the other admins are around often enough to help
18:47:00 <korvo> I acknowledge your health issues. Part of why I recommend deleting large junk pages is to lighten your load so that there's less to be anxious about.
18:47:28 <ais523> well, I'm trying to keep the wiki as a useful resource – "useful" is a concept that is defined in terms of other people, which means caring about them to at least some extent
18:48:42 <ais523> I'm in a weird space of neuro-atypicality where I do end up sympathising/caring about other people just in general (which some people may see as a character flaw) but am also capable of seeing the point of view of people who don't
18:51:00 <ais523> I think maybe being able to even formulate an argument like "you shouldn't murder people, because it gives the community an incentive to try to prevent you killing anyone else in case they are next, so they will fund police to put you in prison" is reprehensible/immoral to many people (because it ignores what would to most people be a much better reason to not kill people), but I'm happy to make that sort of argument if it convinces someone and reduces the
18:51:02 <ais523> number of murders – and the same principle applies even in situations with much lower stakes
18:51:33 <korvo> Too much was asked of me when I was younger, so I am now tit-for-tat and transactional. I also see many of our graffiti artists as youngsters who need active education in order to be good contributors.
18:52:22 <ais523> this means that I'm OK trying to interact with transactional people, as long as I'm not responsible for them in areas beyond the areas I'm supposed to be in control of
18:53:46 <korvo> Also, as a language designer, I think that most pages are vanity pages. That includes pages about my languages, which again I'm happy to see deleted. I don't think vanity is a good usage of a community resource.
18:54:25 <ais523> anyway, having a rule that requires deletion of a large number of pages, especially if it's subjective, would create a lot more work for me because I would need to actually do the deletions and it would be hard to find every page (and to find pages near the borderline and make a decision about them)
18:55:23 <ais523> ah, I think this point of view contradicts the entire purpose of the wiki – it was created as a reaction to pages about esolangs on Wikipedia being deleted on the basis of not being notable enough / verifiable enough / of enough interest to other people
18:55:37 <korvo> I already made clear that I'd be willing to be deputized for such a task. Now, we both know that you don't trust me with elevated privileges, and again I completely understand, respect, and even endorse that lack of trust. But it seems like there's nobody else around who could be trusted, either?
18:56:01 <korvo> So maybe the actual issue isn't about how much time you have, but how little delegation you can perform to offload work.
18:56:06 <ais523> if I had to make someone active an admin I would probably choose None1
18:56:21 <ais523> but, I think before appointing more admins, it is useful to have clear rules
18:56:42 <ais523> back when I was first appointed an admin the rules appeared to be clear and made sense for what was happening at the time, and I just enforced them, everything was great
18:56:52 <ais523> but over time, people have found more grey area in the rules than previously appeared to exist
18:56:55 <korvo> Oh, I'm still not a deletionist. I'm an inclusionist. I also think that including *oneself* is vanity. Ideally we would all work to discuss *each other* without having to ever mention ourselves.
18:57:16 <korvo> Because otherwise we end up with graffiti walls where the objective is for youths to spray their tag without getting reverted.
18:58:03 <ais523> one of my biggest problems is that I am much faster at coming up with ideas than I am at expressing them in a form that can be communicated to others, or recorded durably
18:58:29 <ais523> I get so frustrated because people keep offering to help with "why don't you just tell me and I can write it down for you / translate" but that first step is the difficult one
19:00:04 <ais523> ah, here we go, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/6507 from 2006: "Articles on languages you made yourself are encouraged, unlike for example Wikipedia. However, these may still be mercilessly edited by others. In most cases this is a good thing."
19:00:13 <ais523> that rule is still in the policy, even with the same wording I think
19:02:28 <ais523> and I'm glad that I can just put my own esolangs onto the wiki – some are more interesting than others, and many of them, perhaps nobody else will care about, but I have no way to tell
19:07:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:THCA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181244 * Miui * (+74) Created page with "~~~~ Extreme of curious how to classify the THCA"
19:08:53 <esolangs> [[I Ate 562 Metric Tons Of Air And Now I Am Floating Into The Atmosphere's Various Layers At Approximately 0.401 Meters Per Second. If I Had Not Ate That Much Air Then I Would Be Fine Right Now. Now I Have To Exhale All Of This Air. The Lesson Here Is To No]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181245&oldid=181237 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+456) /* Commands */ hel
19:10:07 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181246&oldid=181230 * Miui * (+43)
19:10:11 <korvo> I'm not really capable of original ideas, so I can't empathize properly. I get that it's good to have community places to share and build upon each others' work.
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19:10:26 <ais523> there are a couple of new esolangs I created recently and need to write up
19:12:36 <esolangs> [[THCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181247&oldid=132824 * Miui * (+40)
19:18:28 <esolangs> [[THCA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181248&oldid=181247 * Aadenboy * (-40) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/181247|181247]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]])
19:25:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Miui * uploaded "[[File:Deadfish.jpg.jpg]]"
19:26:49 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181250 * Miui * (+109) Created page with "[[File:Deadfish.jpg.jpg|thumb|alt=demon frying fish with bsd daemons 3-d glasses compatible.|'''deadfish''']]"
19:27:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AeroPurple * New user account
19:29:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui/deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181251 * Miui * (+23) Created page with "I love [[THCA]][pstf].."
19:34:07 <esolangs> [[Quantum Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181252&oldid=180122 * Miui * (+49)
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19:47:05 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181253&oldid=181250 * Miui * (+25)
19:48:36 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181254&oldid=181246 * Miui * (+135)
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20:12:02 <esolangs> [[Deadfish-33]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181255&oldid=181093 * CodePentuplets48 * (+40)
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20:40:40 <esolangs> [[User:CodePentuplets48]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181256&oldid=181140 * CodePentuplets48 * (+17)
20:46:09 <esolangs> [[ndirae]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181257&oldid=181146 * CodePentuplets48 * (+27)
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20:59:23 <Sgeo> If I do a bunch of stuff locally and want to transfer to HackEso, what would... be a good way of doing that. Need a web host I guess, urgh
21:00:05 <Sgeo> vm.zip looks nice but doesn't seem to have PL/I (F) installed (unless I just don't know where to look) or the batch facility
21:01:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Linguistic Category:Math]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181258&oldid=181231 * Miui * (+186) /* Successor product */ new section
21:05:00 <b_jonas> Sgeo: so there's the builtin fetch command, which requires at least a temporary web host, such as a pastebin site, and you can use this to download directly into /hackenv/tmp ; and in theory there should be the https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/ interface, but I think that's not working right now
21:05:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: is the edit interface known to be broken, or do I just not know how to use it
21:05:49 <b_jonas> the edit interface should let you upload data into a file, but I think it has some form encoding problem so I don't know how, if it all, it mangles non-ascii data
21:06:21 <b_jonas> but you can always edit something base64-encoded into /hackenv/tmp and then decode it in a command
21:09:33 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181259&oldid=180765 * Miui * (+207)
21:09:54 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181260&oldid=181259 * Miui * (+1) /* "Hello, World!" example */
21:11:03 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181261&oldid=181260 * Miui * (-3)
21:11:54 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181262&oldid=181254 * Miui * (+13)
21:13:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181263&oldid=161703 * Miui * (+51)
21:14:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181264&oldid=181263 * Miui * (+23)
21:15:03 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181265&oldid=181261 * Miui * (-1)
21:16:46 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181266&oldid=181265 * Miui * (+18) /* "Hello, World!" example */
21:18:38 <esolangs> [[Iffinit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181267&oldid=181266 * Miui * (+33)
21:18:51 <esolangs> [[Iffiniternity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181268 * Miui * (+0) Created blank page
21:19:23 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181269&oldid=181262 * Miui * (+22) /* eternal scope */
21:21:10 <esolangs> [[Iffiniternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181270&oldid=181268 * Miui * (+66)
21:22:03 <esolangs> [[Iffiniternity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181271&oldid=181270 * Miui * (+35)
21:26:01 <esolangs> [[Syssolu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181272&oldid=161462 * Miui * (+206)
21:27:28 <fizzie> Yeah, the edit interface is broken, I forget exactly how but I think it was broken by an upgrade.
21:27:48 <fizzie> Though TBH it's not much more integrated with HackEso than any third-party pastebin.
21:28:26 <fizzie> Other than having that facility of loading an existing file into it for editing.
21:31:01 <fizzie> I guess in principle I could also publish the repository on one of the code-hosting sites that have some sort of a pull request process (and then just manually sync it now and then).
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21:32:31 <fizzie> I've been toying with the idea of converting the repo to Git (as a way to avoid the hgweb dependency for exposing it for cloning), but there's so many binaries that rely on `hg` commands that it would break, I probably won't.
21:44:50 <esolangs> [[Soundcheck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181273 * CodePentuplets48 * (+2644) Created page with "[[Category:2026]] '''Soundcheck''' is an esolang I did while running on nostalgic silliness and a prayer. Oh, you're asking why? Well, you have not seen Odd Squad, you chump. The commands are mostly all lyrics from the song "Dance Like Nobody's Watching" in
21:46:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181274&oldid=181145 * CodePentuplets48 * (+17) /* S */
21:47:01 <esolangs> [[User:CodePentuplets48]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181275&oldid=181256 * CodePentuplets48 * (+17)
22:00:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Usernames]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181276&oldid=180954 * Esolang lover123 * (+231)
22:01:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Moebiusbun * New user account
22:14:35 <esolangs> [[T U F]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181277 * Esolang lover123 * (+544) Created page with "joke version of [[T F]] and also balanced ternary {| class=wikitable ! name !! what it does !! why |-] | T || is T || constant |- | F || same as T |- | U |- | @ || nor || nand is overated |- | X || halt || wow |- | R:X=Y || if X=Y then repeat the stuff in <> |- |
22:15:45 <Sgeo> I feel vaguely guilty that I haven't been working on my PDP-1 emulator. I want to get PDP-1 Lisp running on it
22:18:59 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181278&oldid=181118 * Sgeo * (+164) PDP-1 Lisp
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22:27:22 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=181279 * Esolang lover123 * (+503) Created page with "{{stub}} computer speak emoji is a ""joke language" created by [[User:Emoji]] (real) ==Syntax/commands/whatever else== is halt. is input number is input ascii "string" outputs string/variable if not in ""s latest input XY pops the top value of the stack. if it
22:27:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maple * New user account
22:28:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181280&oldid=181274 * Esolang lover123 * (+22)
22:36:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=181281&oldid=181055 * Maple * (+214) Introducing myself (Maple)
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