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00:57:25 <esolangs> [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182606&oldid=182586 * Hotcrystal0 * (+0) 
01:00:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Simpler Subskin]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182607&oldid=182605 * PkmnQ * (+378) 
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01:27:22 <esolangs> [[Caca]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182608&oldid=180891 * Mari * (-18) remove undiscussed category
01:27:29 <esolangs> [[Interpriterlol]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182609&oldid=180892 * Mari * (-18) remove undiscussed category
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01:46:57 <esolangs> [[Befunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182610&oldid=182583 * EvyLah * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */ I don't think that loop is aligned correctly
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07:09:33 <esolangs> [[16 bits, 256 bytes]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182611&oldid=158966 * PrySigneToFry * (+199) 
07:19:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:Simpler Subskin]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182612&oldid=182607 * Blashyrkh * (+193) 
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08:24:07 <APic> Hi
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11:05:38 <esolangs> [[LAST]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182613&oldid=102884 * Blashyrkh * (-1) /* 194-bit self-interpreter */ Since Tromp optimized his BLC self-interpreter, the difference had been reduced from 12 to 2 bits.
11:42:05 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182614&oldid=181139 * Hammy * (-113) removed the weird thingy that made my username green for some reason
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13:42:07 <esolangs> [[User:Zinnia Glean]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182615&oldid=165333 * Zinnia Glean * (+470) 
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17:21:10 <ais523> do domestic phone numbers not exist in New Zealand? (this is one of the main anomalies in the locale differences)
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18:28:01 <int-e> Huh. I guess they don't quite have area codes but are instead assigning prefixes to telco/city pairs (many to one) on demand, by application: https://www.nad.org.nz/number-register
18:40:32 <int-e> Or maybe they have a very coarse area code that's just a single digit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialling_codes_in_New_Zealand says that you can use 0 as the trunk prefix (rather than starting everything with +64/0064), so having a domestic format would make sense from that perspective.
18:42:35 <int-e> So, I don't know. Maybe it's an omission in the locale DB. Maybe nobody uses such local phone numbers. Or maybe there's something I'm missing. Yay!
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18:44:45 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_New_Zealand#Numbering_plan certainly suggests that the 0... format sees some use
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18:53:45 <esolangs> [[Copyright makes no sense]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182616&oldid=94317 * Hakerh400 * (-2055) After thorough consideration, the page does not seem to offer any practical value. The article was intended to evoke the idea that copyright is a social construct rather than a mathematical one, and therefore any attempt at formalizing it would fail. However, 
18:56:02 <ais523> huh, I accidentally omitted the @ in an email address I was trying to send to, and my email client gave me an "are you sure?" – I'm surprised that there was an option to attempt to send it regardless
18:57:10 <ais523> it could almost certainly have formulated the corresponding SMTP but there's very little chance that the submission server would accept it, so I'm not sure why there was an option to do so – testing mailservers, perhaps? or maybe it would be interpreted as some form of mailing other than email via the Internet?
19:07:25 <esolangs> [[Copyright makes no sense]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182617&oldid=182616 * Corbin * (+2055) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/182616|182616]] by [[Special:Contributions/Hakerh400|Hakerh400]] ([[User talk:Hakerh400|talk]]): Nah, this is both hilarious and correct. Copyright is incompatible with information theory.
19:08:59 <esolangs> [[ShiftAleph]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182618&oldid=182341 * Broxol * (+80) /* INTRODUCTION */
19:09:39 <int-e> ais523: In any case, glibc's locale data has never had a domestic phone number format for NZ. I honestly don't know how one would notice, other than looking at that data (whether directly or through locale-related tools)
19:10:05 <ais523> it depends on whether any programs try to use the locale to format phone numbers, I guess
19:11:13 <int-e> . o O ( you'd first need a program that uses phone numbers )
19:11:15 <ais523> korvo: the proof's argument may be correct but its premises are wrong (specifically premise 3)
19:11:35 <int-e> (only half serious)
19:11:40 <ais523> I guess most programs that use phone numbers would want to consider the possibility that the phone numbers they store might not be domestic
19:12:06 <ais523> and so wouldn't try to format phone numbers as though domestic, perhaps unless there was evidence to the contrary?
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19:13:56 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182619&oldid=182508 * Broxol * (+73) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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19:15:07 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182620&oldid=182619 * Broxol * (+4) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
19:15:51 <korvo> ais523: I would use a sorites argument to embarrass any legal pro who tries to assault (3). Yes, it's false, but *why* it is false is quite entertaining.
19:16:47 <korvo> Because surely we would not argue against the existence of a category which allows us to cut up books, with limited photocopying, such that we have an arrow from book B to book C precisely when we can transform (not too many copies of) B into C.
19:16:55 <int-e> Now wtf is this site: https://localedb.org/countries/NZ
19:17:00 <ais523> korvo: well the least controversial argument why it's false is the possibility that the copyrighted book is encoded in the reliable way rather than in the book you're reconstructing it from
19:17:31 <ais523> (this sort of thing is a real issue in, e.g., TCness proofs – you need to show that the TCness is in the program execution rather than in the way you're determining whether or not it halted)
19:17:41 <korvo> ais523: But there will always be highly detailed transformations, like permutations which shuffle the order of chapters, that are relatively un-transformative for copyright.
19:17:46 <ais523> or, if the program is infinitely long, in the way the program is created
19:17:50 <int-e> And why is the international prefix so wrong? *Checks US* No, I don't think 011 is right for the US either. :P
19:18:36 <ais523> korvo: I believe there are situations where some permutations of a list are copyrightable and others aren't (with the copyright being in the permutation itself rather than the list)
19:18:50 <ais523> although that might be more of a database right than a traditional copyright
19:19:13 <korvo> ais523: Sure. But that rather gives away the top-level premise we're supposed to prove, yeah?
19:19:48 <ais523> korvo: this is a very difficult subject to write reasonable proofs on, because the law doesn't follow logic in a traditiona lway
19:20:38 <korvo> Yep. The way I like to think of it is that a society can't coherently believe in copyright and information theory simultaneously.
19:20:57 <ais523> here's a fun thought experiment under UK law – suppose you take a copyrighted work A, generate a random stream of bits B, then give A^B to one person and B to another person, in a way where you don't record which is which
19:21:12 <ais523> who if anyone is breaking the law?
19:22:19 <korvo> I remember that! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OFFSystem
19:23:20 <int-e> ais523: There's those weirdly free-form looking empty hroup email list addresses (most commonly `undisclosed recipients:;`)
19:23:28 <int-e> hroup -> group
19:24:19 <int-e> so if you're too lazy to implement a parser for that, allowing to send an email without @ in the To: address[es] is a solution for that ;)
19:24:23 <ais523> int-e: oh right, the To: field can be different from the RCPT TO – so I could put an invalid address in To: and set the real address I wanted as a Bcc:
19:25:49 <korvo> ais523: Anyway, if you're interested in USA law at all, there's a great review from a few years ago that explains precisely how untenable copyright has become: https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/stlr/article/view/12761
19:27:03 <ais523> korvo: anyway, I'm pretty sure the copyright system is based on causality, so in my scenario, one of the recipients would be liable if they forwarded their block further and the other one wouldn't, but nobody can tell which – it wouldn't surprise me if setting up this situation intentionally might itself be illegal, as that would be the typical way to close that sort of loophole
19:27:58 <ais523> I've felt for a while that copyright laws would benefit from being weakened (but likely not removed entirely) but it is very hard to work out the exact correct point
19:28:00 <korvo> ais523: That'd be nice, but copyright is might-makes-right; it's a system which disproportionately rewards big publishers with capital investments.
19:28:46 <ais523> but when LLMs became widespread, and governments showed a tendency towards allowing them to be legal, it struck me that this was one of the stupidest possible ways to weaken copyright law
19:29:07 <ais523> I have been following the lawsuit where the New York Times (and a number of other newspapers) sued Microsoft and OpenAI very closely
19:29:10 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182621&oldid=182620 * Hakerh400 * (+2086) /* Interactive theorem provers */ Add new ideas
19:29:25 <ais523> it is likely to be a couple of years before it produces meaningful results, though
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19:32:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * WarrenG *  New user account
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19:37:51 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182622&oldid=182621 * Hakerh400 * (+34) /* Interactive theorem provers */
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20:29:17 <zzo38> I had said before that I think many of the things they put in the locale should belong in other places instead; either with the data being handled or with the configuration of some other subsystem (e.g. modem, printer, terminal, etc)
20:32:11 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182623&oldid=182622 * Broxol * (+47) /* Mathematics */
20:36:49 <esolangs> [[-1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=182624 * Broxol * (+2536) Created page with "-1 is a stack-based language created by [[User:Broxol]]. It is designed to only allow stacking of imaginary numbers.  This language was made from the inspiration page, so Im not going to really explain it, but I do have some examples.  Unfortunately, I did not add any form of
20:38:02 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182625&oldid=182623 * Broxol * (+10) /* Mathematics */
20:38:26 <esolangs> [[User:Broxol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182626&oldid=182344 * Broxol * (+11) 
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20:44:26 <esolangs> [[ShiftAleph]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182627&oldid=182618 * Broxol * (-80) 
21:00:18 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182628&oldid=182625 * Broxol * (+157) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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21:07:49 <APic> Good Night      😴
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