< 1787529765 100429 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 274 seconds < 1787530640 139142 :sftp!~sftp@user/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 262 seconds < 1787531701 47453 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 JOIN #esolangs * :sftp < 1787531719 64599 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.36.182 CHGHOST ~sftp :user/sftp < 1787531930 82601 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord < 1787533770 569893 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 JOIN #esolangs * :lunabee < 1787533939 409769 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is this a good place to ask for language help? < 1787533945 441246 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like for designing an esolang < 1787534192 345857 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Do you have a specific question about it? < 1787534217 680828 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes but its very general < 1787534225 204202 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :really we just need some other ppl to bounce ideas off of < 1787534292 566471 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the esolang in question is called ralsei < 1787534322 729570 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its a string rewriting language which we wanna design specifically around compilation/interpretation of other programming languages < 1787534525 482439 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the general way programming would be done is by having two files, the program (the thing ralsei actually runs) and the input (the thing the program works on) < 1787534535 490298 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have a few goals with the language < 1787534601 796928 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firstly, the ability to 'pass through' things from the input into the program < 1787534625 18836 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to give the ability to create languages with truly arbitrary syntax < 1787534707 452146 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ACTION listening < 1787534726 942454 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie (at a very high level) some baloney like `(new rule, infix addition, "%a + %b", (+, a, b)) (display, 1 + 2) ; would print 3` < 1787534796 988708 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :secondly, we want whatever system we use for that to be pretty practical < 1787534808 956156 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :both to implement and to use < 1787534885 559067 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie easy support for stuff like libraries and whatnot < 1787534937 313560 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :plus a few other secondary goals < 1787534967 455046 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the main premise is a language to write other languages in, with the power cranked up to 11 < 1787534993 426474 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The relevant page on the wiki is a bit short: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Metalanguage < 1787535031 574648 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Were there specific libraries that you were hoping to integrate? < 1787535064 308485 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nono by libraries we meant like, itd be easy to write and use libraries written within the language < 1787535095 53753 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Ah, like modules or theories or other sorts of extensions. Somebody Else's Code. < 1787535105 699157 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787535108 289116 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the problem is < 1787535123 818926 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we are. VERY conflicted with how to go about anything more specific than that < 1787535183 667874 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like we keep getting torn between 'it should have useful features pre-implemented' and 'those should be implemented from within the language so the primitives can build equally fundamental things' < 1787535222 172088 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie if the regex * should be a primitive or if it should be implemented < 1787535226 859064 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: how would that work? what would determine the semantics of that operator. is the "addition" that you mention a library function that has semantics, and you're just binding the "+" operator to it? < 1787535270 56681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :also this has nothing to do with the RASEL language, right? the name just sounds simlar. < 1787535284 772514 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea we've never heard of that langauge < 1787535381 658915 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the example is a comically high-level one but the gist is that, internally, a rule `[variable] [whitespace] "+" [whitespace] [variable] -> "(+," [variable] "," [variable] ")" gets made < 1787535395 311327 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait oop forgot the finishing ` < 1787535404 660412 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Have you looked at parser-oriented compilers like META II? We have an article on it: https://esolangs.org/wiki/META_II < 1787535412 384009 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787535441 555083 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then that rule would be checked for before anything else when parsing the next expressions < 1787535459 298910 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, have you looked at languages like Haskell (or Agda, Idris, etc. in that family) that allow custom operators? This trick works by defining a big class of random punctuation characters as legal tokens for new operators. < 1787535493 426087 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea but those have pre-defined syntactic rules for how they work < 1787535513 575650 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we wanna make it so that you can have *truly* arbitrary syntax < 1787535550 646211 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like you could take a lisp implementation with syntax redefining and turn it into a c interpreter from within the language itself < 1787535570 166650 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways anyways < 1787535621 979570 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way that the example we gave above and like how the language would 'know' whats a variable and whatnot would be left to the implementation of the given lisp in ralsei < 1787535645 290297 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we just used lisp cuz thats the canonical example in our head < 1787535670 590919 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's just meant to illustrate what we're talking about < 1787535746 920075 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem is we're torn on nearly everything about how we should design ralsei itself < 1787535811 184758 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I struggled with this for Zaddy, too. That's a META II fork. The "restricted" version of Zaddy still looks like META II; I have no idea what the "unrestricted" syntax will look like. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Zaddy < 1787535827 72659 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :checking out < 1787535867 265933 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That said, S-expressions will work and they are easy to parse. There's no reason to commit to a hard-to-parse meta-syntax. There are languages that are super-rich and hard-to-parse and with builtin parsing tools, like Raku or Janet, but they take a lot of effort to get the details right. < 1787536007 203989 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: Oh, another big question: do you want to be able to implement *optimizing* compilers, or is it enough to simply emit valid code? The more optimizations you want, the more you'll need some sort of general-purpose tools. < 1787536061 191621 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on hold on we think we introduced some confusion with the lisp example < 1787536075 340065 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the lisp example would be the *input* for a ralsei program < 1787536106 694554 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! What kind of syntax were you thinking for ralsei itself? Some sort of BNF? < 1787536174 549611 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're actually thinking of making ralsei in a binary format < 1787536252 586669 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :beyond that we've again been very torn < 1787536284 526284 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like for example we keep thinking about like if the instructions should work like functions < 1787536294 725928 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And, really, what's the difference between text and binary? So it sounds like very little is decided. < 1787536307 19182 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is true < 1787536323 135843 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah very little is decided specifically because we're so torn between everything we *could* do < 1787536323 917250 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :How do you want to identify and rewrite hunks of input? Do you want structures for input? Types? < 1787536346 336097 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've had tons of ideas < 1787536350 318162 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lemme air some out real quick < 1787536461 762845 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've thought about basing execution around typical string rewriting systems, where the 'recognition' phase would be checking for all chunks of text that follow a certain pattern, then the 'rewriting' phase would operate on the chunks in question < 1787536537 340913 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've thought about having recognition and rewriting split in two, where you could first recognize all pieces of text that follow a certain rule, *then* rewrite them < 1787536543 85808 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which we concieved of as types < 1787536609 56925 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her) < 1787536610 399845 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've thought about having execution resemble more traditional machine code, of course still with weird oddities < 1787536673 942140 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is actually kind of where we are right now < 1787536702 421805 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we've also thought about ditching *string* rewriting entirely and basing it in *tree* rewriting instead < 1787536734 42144 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like we just cant choose one thing to follow through on < 1787536758 75011 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alright airing out done < 1787536760 89834 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can speak again :P < 1787536827 260694 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. I ended up implementing a couple whitepapers for Zaddy. I do E-graph rewriting; I found a paper that turns it into a database-query problem, and implemented it as an in-memory hierarchy of database tables. < 1787536863 943825 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :This approach requires types, one way or another, because I need to emit code for each table, and each constructor has to be associated to the correct table. < 1787536888 922231 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787536943 776873 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the way we're imagining ralsei compiles/interprets languages is by 'sifting' down the input until it just *is* the compiled/interpreted result < 1787536970 982067 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Matching is computationally tricky. Tree rewriting is really easy because we can implement it as katamorphisms (or paramorphisms, etc.) and those are compiled down to recursive procedures. The only difficulty is traversing the tree. < 1787536973 608689 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :similar to a paper we saw about compiling lisp by gradually turning it into assembly but we cant remember it :sob: < 1787536999 320114 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah so a thought we had about matching < 1787537016 167212 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But as the tree overlaps with itself more and more, the underlying algorithms get nastier. For DAGs, which are just trees that can share some branches, the best algorithms are variants of NOLTIS. Linear time, more or less, but hard to think about. < 1787537016 945953 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a big part of why we have an entire pratical/bootstrapping split in our head < 1787537081 578756 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm terrible at mind-reading but I'm guessing Ghuloum 2011, "An incremental approach to compiler construction" http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf < 1787537094 758811 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Which is a great paper, really insightful, thanks for recommending again. < 1787537146 198526 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this might be it? not sure but we'll go back through it later < 1787537147 97245 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but anyways < 1787537158 495196 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might actually be better to step back and talk about another langauge we thought of < 1787537162 132593 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically to help us work on ralsei < 1787537168 327561 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so < 1787537189 331841 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yknow the whole central premise of parsing, right? < 1787537196 894208 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :turning a string of text into an abstract syntax tree < 1787537229 624435 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :according to a given set of rules that determine how the tree should be built < 1787537301 430493 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Or just recognizing that a string fits a grammar. < 1787537307 599503 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the rules can use the raw string, as well as elements from the tree, to create new parts of the tree < 1787537308 192398 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787537315 267247 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So < 1787537402 954230 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically there's some unspoken rules in place when making this tree < 1787537457 723529 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie you cant destroy parts of the tree which already exist, and you generally dont want to make the top of the tree bigger than before < 1787537514 4461 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i.e. a rule which makes two leaves of the tree that contain the same part of the program string at the same time < 1787537531 485153 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you *dont* follow these, rules, then uh < 1787537547 709568 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you accidentally make it turing complete < 1787537662 440751 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :theoretically, you could have a language whose *syntax* is turing complete, as in the program which successfully turns a given piece of source code in the language to its' corresponding syntax tree is capable of universal computation < 1787537715 533475 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, that happens sometimes. Perl 5 is a classic example. < 1787537716 323878 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is very funny, but one of the main implications of this is that 'rules' for string recognition are actually programs < 1787537736 724824 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this is different from the other 'you cant parse [blank]' examples we've seen < 1787537764 984122 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you "can't parse" perl 5 because you can make the parser run perl 5 code < 1787537774 53850 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1787537795 416478 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we consider that cheating because that's just passing the semantics of perl 5 through the syntax < 1787537803 9854 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is obviously turing complete < 1787537811 657366 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same thing for latex and raku < 1787537870 54400 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what we mean is that the mere act of turning a string in that programming language into its' correct syntax tree is turing complete < 1787537893 429752 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just to drive the point home we also imagine that said languages' semantics wouldnt be turing complete < 1787537927 167841 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hm, is it really possible to disconnect the semantics from the syntax in that direction? < 1787537934 957123 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think so < 1787538046 299578 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 JOIN #esolangs * :lunabee < 1787538048 500548 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ack < 1787538049 482794 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry < 1787538052 418085 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :disconnected < 1787538069 286477 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways we think so < 1787538074 682795 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz you could just make the final tree like, some dialect of deadfish or smth < 1787538091 196932 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :make it correspond to* < 1787538096 652387 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or like just plain arithmetic < 1787538125 377446 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the funny part is that you coudl still write turing-complete programs in it < 1787538144 487176 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by *passing the syntax through the semantics* < 1787538158 677686 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the same way perl 5 or latex can pass the semantics through the syntax < 1787538208 344378 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess? I'm thinking in subsets. Let P* be the set of all of the strings made from the valid letters of the language. If parsing some subset S of P* is Turing-complete ("TC" is fine in this channel, BTW) then we can't decide whether some element of P* is an element of S. < 1787538227 226873 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1787538295 58502 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But then what we mean by "semantics" is really important. If we mean the entailments of the native type theory, then given two programs P1 and P2, and the question of whether P1 reduces to P2, we have to establish that both P1 and P2 are elements of S. But that's undecidable twice over. < 1787538301 939194 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways that implies that, even with less extreme examples, 'rules' for string recognition are programs in their own right < 1787538309 713007 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah wait oop < 1787538315 628740 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :srry we didnt see what you said we were scrolled up < 1787538316 390464 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::sob: < 1787538325 843408 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 NICK :MarkFan8901 < 1787538344 579317 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, for sure. I'm reminded of Prolog's DCG formalism, which blends the grammar rules with an ambient backtracking state-management system. < 1787538363 418038 :amby!~ambylastn@46.162.147.147.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1787538365 877281 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I'm in no rush and it's nice to talk to folks who have done their research. < 1787538375 659855 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki oki < 1787538377 586860 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank u thank u < 1787538395 154545 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Also, I *really* want to finish Zaddy this year, so I'm eager for anything that I haven't read yet. I want to solve the ACE-matching problem, and I feel that I'm really close. < 1787538404 708460 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hell yea < 1787538437 512391 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1787538439 39356 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to respond to your statement, what we mean by semantics is simply the meaning assigned to different parts of the syntax tree < 1787538511 734456 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. Presumably that meaning is homomorphic, which just means that the detailed structure of the tree is preserved by the semantics. If that's the case then we can bring a powerful toolbox from maths, category theory, to our aid. A lot of things become free for rewriting systems in general, whether over strings or trees. < 1787538538 455988 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes yes < 1787538587 91758 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie if you have an if/then/else statement, where the nodes of the tree are the condition and the two blocks of code that correspond to the then/else clauses < 1787538623 355187 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the semantics are just, if its true then statement is equivalent to the then block < 1787538628 120104 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :else its equivalent to the else block > 1787538652 18466 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072-SSI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190080&oldid=189986 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+33) 10 < 1787538654 64882 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that's what underpins how we think ralsei would *interpret* programs > 1787538690 81297 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072-SSI14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190081&oldid=190080 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+2) 10 < 1787538697 136832 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :compiling programs would just be taking the syntax tree and 'translating' it into the desired form < 1787538749 767559 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. That sort of optimization is closely related to *partial evaluation*, which is an entire thing on its own in compiler theory. I'm more than happy to talk about it, and about JITs too, but often folks find that too complicated. < 1787538802 388886 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1787538813 393850 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways though < 1787538827 193573 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's also the ideas of normalization by evaluation ("NBE") and compiling-to-closures, which both are ways of compiling e.g. lambda calculus by compiling to a higher-order program that takes lambda terms as input and output. < 1787538864 587366 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And more generally, multi-stage programming with quoting and unquoting. The complexity tower goes all the way up if you want to talk about metainterp. < 1787538882 116989 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(quivering voice) yeah we're good < 1787538903 445613 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you know WAY more about this than we do < 1787538915 341116 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not to say thats bad btw its all good < 1787538937 478471 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uhh we forgot what we were gonna say next give us a sec < 1787538955 572714 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No worries. I've been around the block a few times. I've also tried out a lot of things. I'm trying to give you a lot of options without telling you what I think you ought to do. < 1787538967 896396 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right well < 1787538989 903543 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the primary issue is that we dont know how to just lock in and pick one < 1787539008 116049 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz nothing we've really thought of has fully satisfied us yet < 1787539021 498100 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though we think talking more about the intent of what we wanna do is starting to help < 1787539052 310059 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Y'all might have to do a few experiments. Build a couple little toys that can only barely parse themselves. For metacompilers, it sounds annoying (and kind of is) but you'll want to hand-write the first fixed point. < 1787539072 210579 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like the problem is we have too *many* options and we aren't skilled in how to think about them clearly < 1787539092 931499 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yeah wym by fixed point < 1787539099 833151 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you just mean like the starting point? < 1787539115 132365 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, 500 lines of Python hand-written for a 50-line grammar. It's not the end of the world, but it will be a bit of a slog. I think it's fun, but I also used to debug GPU drivers by hard-resetting my machine dozens of times per day and I speedrun randomizers, so I'm a little twisted. < 1787539158 424976 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh actually we do already have quite a few lines of c code (we wanna implement this in c) that implement cut buffers < 1787539234 417980 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I mean y'all will have two artifacts in your repo: one in Ralsei and one in C. The Ralsei document is your actual compiler and the C code is just a fixed point in the sense that `compiler(c) = c` should be true-ish. < 1787539256 628428 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :mm < 1787539260 35829 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her) < 1787539263 432247 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But it's also okay if you start with some jank C that only barely works, generate a nicer pile of C, and then distribute the nicer version. < 1787539265 304689 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also we like how you switched to saying yall instead of you < 1787539283 536136 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Is there such a thing as non-jank C? < 1787539288 258135 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if ur wondering why we say we its cuz we're a split personality (long story short) < 1787539289 143619 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :True > 1787539302 924358 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: "Non-jank" C is a bit of a paradox. C itself is a low-level language, meaning it's close to the hardware. This means it's inherently prone to performance issues like jank. However, you can minimize jank in C by: * **Careful code optimization:** Minimize unnecessary operations, use efficient data structures, and leverage compiler optimizations. *... > 1787539302 925211 PRIVMSG #esolangs :**Modern C++ features:** C++ offers features like templates and smart pointers that can improve performance and reduce memory management overhead. * **Focusing on the right tools:** Use a good compiler, profiling tools, and a well-structured codebase. Ultimately, "non-jank" C is a matter of minimizing the potential for performance issues. < 1787539307 162002 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure, whichever y'all prefer. This meatbag knows what it's like to have non-standard pronouns and has a few plural friends. < 1787539320 220267 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hehe yay < 1787539328 676650 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hold on reading the esolangs bot output < 1787539354 533105 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uhh is that ai generated < 1787539366 325588 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Don't worry, it's a joke. Normally I'd ask fungot, a bot that uses a Markov model written in Befunge, but it's apparently offline. < 1787539380 326936 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay okay < 1787539383 53644 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The bot can RAG the wiki, sometimes, if we're lucky. < 1787539383 577162 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait hold on < 1787539392 458694 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a markov model written in befunge? < 1787539397 137856 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: Why is META II historically significant? < 1787539399 429155 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats actually hilarious < 1787539403 611198 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, there's some real sickos around here~ < 1787539425 454420 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay anyways < 1787539437 638845 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I started editing the wiki and now I know brainfuck. CLV. > 1787539446 436256 PRIVMSG #esolangs :korvo: META II is historically significant because it was the first metacompiler to be able to regenerate itself in practice. This groundbreaking achievement, achieved in 1962, demonstrated the potential for self-replicating and evolving computational systems. It paved the way for future research in metaprogramming and the development of more... > 1787539446 436718 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sophisticated and adaptable programming languages. < 1787539447 787463 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's why we cant really write a fixed point yet < 1787539487 733773 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its because we're stuck on how to even deal with rules and rewriting internally < 1787539502 191827 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like okay we should probably also talk about some other ideas we've had for ralsei < 1787539523 802319 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :firstly, the ability to make and write to external memory thats unrelated to the input program < 1787539546 745569 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're specifically thinking said memory is also in the form of cut buffers because that would be hilarious < 1787539578 567533 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :+ its convenient and would be consistent with the other base operations that would be given in ralsei < 1787539636 926210 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its another big point of contention to why we have the practical/bootstrap split, because that also creates a REALLY good argument for why the primitives should be more bootstrappy < 1787539660 469772 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I haven't done text editors in a while. Are cut buffers like ropes or gap buffers? < 1787539667 423777 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gap buffers < 1787539684 910787 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I get the vibe of a language that's like programming (within) a text editor. < 1787539700 719413 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yee < 1787539717 409932 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might be a good starting point actually < 1787539727 138190 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :What kinds of things are you imagining might be primitive-only? Or are there things that you think have to be composites of simpler operations for some reason? < 1787539753 298780 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :primitive-only stuff is like, moving the cursor in a cut (short for cut buffer) < 1787539756 89867 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or addition < 1787539762 164201 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or like inserting/deleting stuff in a cut < 1787539786 49721 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh btw cuts store word-length unsigned integers they aren't just limited to characters < 1787539795 625864 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Earlier today, on a totally unrelated language (Vixen on the wiki), I realized that I need a "boot" and "user" split for calling conventions. The problem is that "user" calls shouldn't be allowed to do powerful "boot" things and "boot" calls shouldn't bother with fancy "user" markup. This is a common-ish sort of split. < 1787539820 987839 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1787539834 455114 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :might be relevant but we'll see if that concept comes up again naturally < 1787539846 573875 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :How do y'all want to handle string encoding and codepoints? In Zaddy, I gave up early and said that input and output are both UTF-8 sequences of code points. < 1787539873 212975 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh we were thinking that could be dealt with with rewriting < 1787539914 458539 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I would hope that a rewriting system doesn't need such a split. More likely there could be a "builtin" vs "composite" split; "builtin" is for stuff like numbers, strings, lists, that the user can't or shouldn't build themselves; "composite" is all about how the user can extend the language with their own concepts. < 1787539927 518045 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So like raw bytes? < 1787539943 545714 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes we do have that 'builtin' and 'composite' split in our head already < 1787539949 321876 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're thinking we're going with that < 1787539956 859260 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for utf-8 etc < 1787540013 176900 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we were thinking you could just write a function which rewrites all the multi-length utf-8 characters into their corresponding codepoint < 1787540024 332727 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :since values in cut buffers arent limited to just bytes < 1787540033 198144 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then you could go on with your merry day after that < 1787540038 951119 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :same thing for any other encoding < 1787540085 24770 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could even write like ebcdic (forgot the specific acronym) to ascii functions which could deal with that encoding natively < 1787540097 543072 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or ascii to ebcdic etc < 1787540098 523002 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. Another approach, IIRC the language was called Boomerang?, was to ask the user to define bijections between everything. Parsing UTF-8 meant defining a bijection between bytes and code points; the compiler did the rest. < 1787540118 620666 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats very funny < 1787540145 194787 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yep, https://www.engineering.upenn.edu/~harmony/index.html note the page requires JS enabled. < 1787540179 917586 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :omw to create a context sensitive text encoding system to completely fuck over that entire strategy < 1787540199 708772 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :every esolanger and text editor designer will be our nemesis < 1787540224 952494 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :But their approach allowed for every bijection to become a *lens*, a fancy category-theoretic tool that makes it easy to do small changes to a big system. I wrote a couple toy video games with lenses; e.g. updating the ball in a game of pong means updating a lens that picks the ball's state out of the entire game's state. < 1787540257 111330 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :u'i English is context-sensitive, for example. Spacy can parse English but not in poly time. < 1787540278 638103 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what does u'i mean < 1787540299 895164 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also we were thinking like, dutch level of context sensitivity < 1787540312 24646 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, forgot which channel this is. {u'i} is Lojban and translates roughly to "LOL" < 1787540345 712946 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wow ur even into lojban < 1787540362 178443 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sure. I think all natlangs are going to end up as context-sensitive at best. Context is just too useful to ignore in a naturally-evolved setting. < 1787540368 996770 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787540378 785239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, {korvo} means "crow". < 1787540390 345398 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we also have some cool stuff with conlangs but thats a whole nother can of worms < 1787540397 449903 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whats spacy < 1787540506 211936 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Spacy's a Python library for language processing. They figured out a pretty good way to parse English with like 500 lines of Python, or at least that's the meme. < 1787540526 424008 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh < 1787540528 142920 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cool < 1787540559 94344 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways where were we < 1787540577 2116 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Y'all were thinking about bytes as an I/O interface. < 1787540579 979861 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the practical/bootstrap split < 1787540585 232664 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or in your words builtins and composites < 1787540588 115421 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye < 1787540593 364093 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait < 1787540597 538616 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :srry we were scrolled up again < 1787540606 322970 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we just instinctively typed 'ye' to ur message < 1787540636 80697 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :u'i ie < 1787540645 336448 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're not sure where you got io interfaces from honestly < 1787540665 109782 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I/O is just input and output. Like, input file and output file? < 1787540673 50478 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh ya < 1787540686 864482 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :by 'input program' we just meant the thing ralsei programs operate on < 1787540703 31111 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways < 1787540728 659382 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things that are definitely builtins are like, moving/inserting/deleting in a cut buffer < 1787540748 929435 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :things that *could* be builtins are thigns like regex * or + < 1787540753 518771 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or ranges or whatever > 1787540758 850086 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07YES WAY!14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190082 5* 03Miui 5* (+244) 10YES WAY! < 1787540775 80 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but those *could* also be implemented in terms of those primitives < 1787540808 867904 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would also give you more control over how their inputs and outputs are managed < 1787540816 170813 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually this is another big problem we have < 1787540846 406444 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whenever we try to write example machine code it likes to converge to a functional style < 1787540876 784809 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where you can put instructions into the input field of other instructions < 1787540929 760269 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but that doesnt really make sense without the concept of some sort of place to store the intermediate outputs of those instructions in < 1787540989 985220 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which poses an immediate disadvantage because you wouldn't be able to interact with whatever system that's used to do that < 1787541014 982299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Right. To use some terms from ontology, when we're compiling, we're translating elements of some *domain*, and each domain has its own rules for what an element can *be*. Like, we could say "type", but that's just a label. What matters is that there's multiple domains, and we need some sort of transformation between each pair of adjacent domains. < 1787541059 251726 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, between bytes and cut buffers, since those are two different domains, there ought to be either a domain which can contain both bytes (bytestrings?) and cut buffers as elements, or there needs to be a transformation from one to the other. < 1787541085 469573 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're not talking about turning bytes to cut buffers < 1787541104 663316 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Similarly, if y'all want instructions to be semantically understood as some sort of operator, then there's going to be some sort of domain of operators, and those operators themselves are subject to transformation. < 1787541127 143176 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok there we go < 1787541141 894241 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :apologies if we sound kinda rude we're not very good at communicating tone in text < 1787541184 346189 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Nah, it's fine. I am famously obtuse and often bad with words. Thinking about like five things at once. < 1787541205 6264 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki oki < 1787541260 430299 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So yeah, I agree, and "place" has its own frustration because we usually want to relate places to each other in some sort of space. Maybe that space has a metric for comparing places, maybe it has a distance (a "norm"), maybe it has some sort of adjacency between places giving a graph of neighbors. < 1787541262 42106 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways our main concern here isn't theoretical, having some opaque system for argument passing is bad because that just means you have to implement more stuff < 1787541299 364095 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, cursors in buffers are places, or they're located at places, and that might have to be revealed in the ontology of a text editor just so that they can be manipulated. < 1787541321 991497 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh we plan on exposing as much as possible from within the language < 1787541351 553429 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :another thing about the character of ralsei is that its comically powerful < 1787541355 570460 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah. A frenemy of mine talks about "the tyranny of call/return", by which they mean that we have that sort of lambda-ish instinct for subroutines and arguments and passing, all the way down to the hardware, even if we don't want it. < 1787541355 944192 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or at least as powerful as is reasonable < 1787541376 993481 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh speaking of calling and returning < 1787541422 250755 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we keep having weird thoughts about how else input and output would be dealt with if it wasnt opaque < 1787541437 514 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but thatll come up naturally a bit later < 1787541516 385544 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so on one hand, having stuff like regex be primitive would feel dirty and hamper the power of ralsei < 1787541553 690780 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then on the other hand, we have implementing those things as functions from the primitives < 1787541580 707946 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and here's where the *other* can of worms opens < 1787541613 657612 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yes. I can talk about how I approached this for Zaddy, but I'll let y'all go for a bit. I got some kitchen stuff to do anyway. < 1787541620 122388 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :at some point we realized if you had a primitive which switched which cut buffer was being executed, you could reimplement function calling and returning from the ground up < 1787541621 4319 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also oki < 1787541668 111983 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you could also theoretically reimplement the concept of libraries and whatnot > 1787541715 771661 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190083&oldid=189346 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+51) 10/* General languages */ < 1787541768 117390 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now our HUGE main concern with this is that that could open the floodgates for multiple different mutually incompatible implementations of functions and libraries < 1787541775 342922 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and really just about everything as fundamental as that < 1787541844 137212 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think its an issue because we dont expect ralsei to be terse enough that you wont need special libraries to do what you want < 1787541846 526305 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like apl or forth < 1787541848 49692 :kibty!~kiuty@user/kibty QUIT :Server closed connection < 1787541854 826915 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :That's just how things go. Like, here's an example from category theory. If you allow multiple input parameters for a callable, then you allow two mutually-incompatible libraries where every binary callable is switched the "wrong" way around. < 1787541875 504451 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah < 1787541905 294522 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, like dialects? Or like descendant languages? APL and Forth are both pretty good examples of that in practice. < 1787541929 52599 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :nono we mean like < 1787541954 60563 :kibty!~kiuty@user/kibty JOIN #esolangs kibty :kbity, onn znc, < 1787541962 125954 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Stepping slightly outside that tradition, I love the little language jq, whose standard library is written in itself. It isn't terse enough on its own, but the standard library is short enough that everybody loads it by default. < 1787541984 311904 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true < 1787541988 885046 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, my roommate got McDonald's. Great. I guess I'm not cooking. Making myself a sandwich instead~ < 1787542006 773975 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait is that good or bad < 1787542008 687191 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :do you get some < 1787542050 446583 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways what we mean is that you get enough shit done in your average apl/forth program that you dont *need* libraries to help you out < 1787542087 234919 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you get more code per code < 1787542180 593660 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like if you need an external program to implement functions and string rewriting youre gonna get a bajillion incompatible implementations of everything in between < 1787542193 136896 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thinking about it more this might not actually be as big of an issue as we feel like it is < 1787542246 251193 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this is probably one of the most fundamental issues we're having < 1787542261 250866 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :our intentions for what we want this language to be are completely split too < 1787542365 601049 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1787542391 490763 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we had a standard implementation of functions and libraries and whatnot most people would probably use that < 1787542393 891333 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and work in that environment < 1787542419 148734 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but then if other ppl wanted to completely rebuild a different environment from the ground up they could do that too < 1787542508 693660 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :our thought of something as fundamental as functions having to be implemented in the language itself is basically the thought of making ralsei microcode < 1787542562 690526 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :for a weird system in which physical memory can be created and destroyed in arbitrary places < 1787542566 987614 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I made a sandwich and it is good. < 1787542571 609527 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayay < 1787542592 666600 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Multiple incompatible implementations of stuff is probably inevitable, especially if it is useful for one use but not so good for the other use, then you will need another one. Since, one program (or file format, or character set, etc) will not be suitable for all uses. < 1787542620 326805 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we mean like for the REALLY fundamental stuff though < 1787542644 986295 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we can accept different ways of reading files or like bnf implementations < 1787542666 740543 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I hear you. For better or worse, functions are as fundamental as programs and algorithms, so there's no real danger of abandoning them entirely. And going the other direction, language designers love to point at procedures and subroutines and methods and say "function", so whatever~ < 1787542709 184934 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs ::sob::sob: yea:sob: yeah thats tr:sob:ue < 1787542716 425452 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea you :sob: didnt call us out at all :sob::sob::sob: < 1787542770 528150 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, your lambda-abstractions are probably proper! I don't mean that you did anything wrong. Just, like. A function is a mapping from an input set to an output set. A program is a text that controls a machine. An algorithm...is in-between. < 1787542802 447723 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's nothing wrong with doing things in terms of functions. (Yet another of my languages, Cammy, is function-only.) It's just not very common. < 1787542811 596765 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Some things will need to be a part of the programming language itself, but that depends on the primary working of programming language (which, in the case of esoteric programming, might be more diverse and unusual in some ways compared with more common programming) < 1787542813 308781 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye no we were just playing around < 1787542847 30350 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm now that we're considering it < 1787542881 736454 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hoever, even when working with instruction sets, not all will use call/return and their working will be differently in different cases, and sometimes you can do unusual stuff with the way it is working. This might also be the case with some esoteric programming languages. < 1787542905 338378 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1787542908 699630 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is actively good to us < 1787542960 286424 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its funny to think we're basically writing a machine code architecture for a string rewriting paradigm < 1787543002 564558 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :though anyways we're thinking about the specifics of how microcode for working with cuts would work < 1787543026 104412 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this whole time we've thought of the cursor of a cut being attached to the cut itself < 1787543107 255134 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but would it be better if, from the perspective of the ralsei program, there was a tangible list of values which corresponded to each cuts current position? < 1787543155 537092 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this reminds us of another annoying problem we have < 1787543162 18472 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :global memory < 1787543185 270618 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :zzo38: WAM, the Warren Abstract Machine underneath some Prologs, is a good example. Erlang's BEAM inherits from it to some degree, as does the De Moura–Bjørner abstract machine. The common thread is pattern-matching, where we want the machine to be able to pause/suspend after each match. < 1787543224 926799 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, it's still possible to pattern-match with a more traditional machine. For a good example, check out the LPEG machine which executes PEGs in Lua. < 1787543267 924089 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the problem with having any other field of values distinct from the 'main' working memory is that they can be simlated anyways with said memory < 1787543289 917816 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :just make a new cut and store it in that memory < 1787543302 730080 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then use it the way you were using it beforehand < 1787543317 357821 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: One approach that might be useful, maybe, is to think like a hardware designer. Actions that are complicated in software are usually complicated in hardware too. A machine is fast because it does a very limited thing, a very small simple thing, maybe a "primitive" thing, very precisely. < 1787543342 55964 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1787543347 54350 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think we need help in thinking this way < 1787543363 443015 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :specifically in how to 'break down' problems like these < 1787543605 187206 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :There's no shortcut. String rewriting is a totally opaque problem. Y'all get to invent your own structures. I'd recommend developing algebras for those structures and isolating their primitive operations, but I think I'm algebra-brained. < 1787543621 695844 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea ur algebra brained < 1787543696 653456 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think the problem is we're averse to structure in the first place < 1787543733 632510 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :beacuse we feel like it could interfere with something someone else might try to do < 1787543751 987245 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :spelling it out like that makes it sound ridiculous though < 1787543763 523630 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :makes that worry* sound ridiculous though < 1787543852 518383 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea we should just go for it < 1787543882 163640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah! Do it. < 1787543946 76363 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I do hear the complaint. I think it's an interesting contrast with the creators of computability theory, who all started with small structures of interest and ended up finding a ceiling of computability in each case. < 1787543982 227178 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, you probably know Church was studying lambda-calculus. Before that, he was working with combinators that showed up repeatedly in mathematical proofs. He was trying to find a way to automate proofs. < 1787544028 25006 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Turing was studying symbols. Letters in ink on paper. He proved that humans only recognize finitely many different letters, then almost immediately defined Turing machines as the simplest possible way to mathematically talk about humans recognizing letters on paper. < 1787544117 163850 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Um, to a lesser degree, also Gödel and MRDP were this way. Gödel was studying first-order logic, which is "small" but also ferociously weird. MRDP were studying Diophantine equations, which are literally just polynomials in e.g. natural-number coefficients, been studied for millennia as standard puzzles and toys. < 1787544141 966360 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back < 1787544144 936493 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we went to the bathroom < 1787544148 628747 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whats mrdp < 1787544169 924606 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Uuum. Matiyasevich, Robinson, David, and Putnam, I think? Did it without looking it up. < 1787544181 359184 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm < 1787544191 724162 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we do vaguely remember something about diophantine equations being turing complete < 1787544198 699389 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we're not exactly sure ohw they are < 1787544201 322899 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :how* > 1787544215 20533 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07YES WAY!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190084&oldid=190082 5* 03Miui 5* (+92) 10 < 1787544231 505470 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Computable#Via_Diophantine_equations might help a little. These are my notes. < 1787544237 144086 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki < 1787544246 643420 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also we should probably make an esolang account < 1787544294 232935 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Basically, for a Diophantine equation, there's a computation that spits out all of the candidate solutions. Maybe they're valid, maybe not, but for e.g. variables x and y in the nats, you can try (0,0), (0,1), (1,0), (2,0), (1,1), ... < 1787544367 772612 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea we can see how that can get unsolvable very quickly < 1787544378 238233 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, hm. Do we use integer coefficients on the wiki? Looks like it. It turns out to not matter; Diophantines over ints and nats are the same complexity, and we can enumerate x and y in the ints like (0,0), (1,0), (0,1), (-1,0), (0,-1), ... < 1787544418 587051 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :theyre all natural numbers from the looks of it < 1787544450 797550 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Robinson, who IME was a wizard, she proved that we can write down Diophantines which encode a bunch of little number-theory gadgets. She'd been reading Gödel, who was basically the first person to imagine it, and got pretty far. < 1787544479 849489 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds cool as hell < 1787544506 194874 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Davis gets credit because they did all the same stuff independently, but Robinson's the one who made the hypothesis that Gödel's theorem can be fully encoded. < 1787544541 508493 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ooooo < 1787544548 212325 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :has it been falsified yet < 1787544564 893434 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :It is! It's funny how the hard part of all of these computability results is getting started. Like, we have to have the vision to see that some mechanism can be iterated, and that it has some sort of text, and that it has some sort of composite operation... < 1787544600 896806 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait by 'it is' do you mean its false < 1787544604 714393 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Robinson's hypothesis turns out to be true! There are Diophantines whose solutions can't be generated by a computer. < 1787544605 194798 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :also ye we fully agree < 1787544618 214270 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I meant it is "cool as hell". < 1787544623 250450 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah < 1787544639 540664 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait we might have misinterpreted 'the hypothesis that godels theorem can be fully encoded' < 1787544660 422136 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Like, obviously we can iterate all of the *candidate* solutions. But it's undecidable whether that iteration will ever give a *valid* solution. < 1787544671 523090 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes < 1787544704 937994 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh, sorry! I meant that Robinson hoped that Gödelian reasoning applied to Diophantines. It would mean that Diophantines are just as strong as any other way of doing maths, in that they're too tough for computers. < 1787544720 260688 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah oki oki < 1787544751 623493 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ya we thought you mean robinson hypothesized that godels theorem could be encoded in like a tangible math thing < 1787544765 286014 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :And then Matiyasevich gets credit for pointing out that a particular set fills the gap in a composite argument of Robinson, Davis, & Putnam. He put everybody together, and they published a bunch of papers giving independent perspectives. < 1787544796 334190 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what did putnam do < 1787544872 96739 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Putnam worked with Davis on a couple papers. Eventually all three of them, RDP, teamed up for a 1961 paper, according to my notes. < 1787544899 482301 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :putnam did NOTHING of importance. /silly < 1787544958 712694 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oya another thing about ralseis design < 1787544967 132180 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have another thing thats kinda annoying for us < 1787544977 442662 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sometimes it feels like that for coauthors. In this case, I think that they were a critical part of the rigor involved, and also in working towards Robinson's hypothesis. It's hard to see from our perspective, but one of Davis's conjectures was proven in 2008; if Matiyasevich never made their note then we'd say that Davis's conjecture was the important one! < 1787544994 584399 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh damn < 1787545055 186548 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyways we have this idea on how to avoid the whole passing instructions as arguments to other instructions thing < 1787545062 930315 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, Robinson said "there is a JR set" (her initials, see wiki for precise definition) and Davis said "there are primes in arithmetic progression, as many as you like", which is TBH way more elegant. < 1787545106 752795 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. [3, 7, 11] is arithmetic progression with step of +4 and everybody's prime; Davis guessed there's no size limit on these. < 1787545117 410267 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes thats an incredibly elegant thing to say < 1787545117 674430 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sorry, tangent over, I'm listening. < 1787545128 217858 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki oki > 1787545132 773664 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07YES WAY!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190085&oldid=190084 5* 03Miui 5* (+17) 10 < 1787545219 431392 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 JOIN #esolangs * :lunabee < 1787545220 745217 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ack < 1787545223 698964 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lost connection again < 1787545298 827332 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so the idea is to just define all input and output of an instruction as different cells from whatever different cuts < 1787545317 851338 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie you could say `add, main[0], main[1], main[2]` < 1787545341 657877 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that would add the contents of the first and second elements in main mem and store it in the third > 1787545351 350571 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Marcus 2n214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190086&oldid=189978 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+87) 10 < 1787545363 31176 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or you could do `add, main[0], main[1], main[0]` for an x86 style of adding < 1787545376 659077 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Or you could also do `add, main[0], main[1], some_other_cut[0]` < 1787545386 294001 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :etc < 1787545390 106309 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::484 QUIT :Ping timeout: 247 seconds < 1787545396 155672 :MarkFan9801!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 NICK :MarkFan8901 < 1787545424 114023 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the issue we had was we thought of something like `main[main[0]]` < 1787545466 382197 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if we wanted to pull that off directly in machine code we would have to have some instruction that would correspond to pointer chasing < 1787545478 288795 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...which is the exact problem we were trying to solve < 1787545486 966179 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think we have a solution tho < 1787545518 588812 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :instead, each argument is actually two different values < 1787545530 889967 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :one corresponding to the pointer of the cut and one to its position > 1787545596 440152 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Marcus 2n214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190087&oldid=190086 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+60) 10 < 1787545609 432901 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then if you wanted to get values from other places you could just load them manually, then refer to them with that system < 1787545679 521262 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yea another entertaining thought we had about compiling/interpreting < 1787545732 400732 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when youre compiling, youre simply rewriting one representation of computation into another representation > 1787545734 662746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[075214]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190088&oldid=162670 5* 03Marcus 2n2 5* (+23) 10 < 1787545746 523228 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when youre interpreting, youre rewriting the representation of computation directly into the computation itself < 1787545800 536031 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :For that first thought: are y'all familiar with the idea of "first-class" and "second-class" syntax? I'm not super-fond of the terminology but it seems to be part of what's going on here. < 1787545817 595159 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're not actually < 1787545820 800134 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :pleas explai < 1787545854 3767 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :On that second thought, yes, compilers can be very simple in terms of computational complexity. There's actually a concept of "self-interpreter barrier", that certain weak systems can't interpret themselves, although it's a little outdated now. < 1787545883 622622 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Okay, yeah. So, the quick idea is that a second-class value can't show up via some reference. It has to be syntactically spelled out every time. < 1787545907 967839 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what would be an example < 1787545929 28882 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :First-class values, like integer and string literals, can just be themselves or they can be assigned to variables which show up on their behalf. < 1787545952 359008 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are integers and strings themselves second class < 1787545965 936022 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like if they arent assigned to a variable < 1787546010 800640 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, they would be. < 1787546022 554803 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is + a second class value < 1787546032 690140 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The idea is that the first-class values are the things we're manipulating with the machine. They're low-level. They're the real computational stuff. < 1787546067 200334 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :are `#define`s second class < 1787546099 446457 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Second-class values are just structural annotations for humans who write programs. The machine doesn't really know what they are. (Or, in some perverse languages, the machine knows full well what they are and enjoys watching you type a lot of words; this is called a *high-ceremony* language and it's okay to (dis)like ceremony.) < 1787546136 870790 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh like literate haskell? < 1787546162 688547 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think C macros are second class? People argue a lot about second-class parts of C. Folks used to say that arrays are second-class, because you can't just write an array literal in C without worrying about its storage or lifetime. < 1787546195 364167 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :doesnt that go for literally everything else that takes up memory in c < 1787546197 730602 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if youre low enough on it < 1787546209 56508 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :So, like, don't just take anybody's word on this. It's a design concept, it's from the 1960s, people were really experimental back then. < 1787546218 677060 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki oki < 1787546243 669160 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :we imagine second class just means you cant work with it directly < 1787546252 435945 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like you cant swap the values of + and - < 1787546260 985944 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh! It's not about taking up memory but about what the language will let you express. Like, C won't let you do first-class manipulation of the *definitions* of structs, although you can do first-class byte inspection of structs. > 1787546275 879476 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Aheui14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190089&oldid=187155 5* 03Miui 5* (-16) 10/* Collatz function */ remove "found by Gemini" (left in summary of edit for posterity) < 1787546278 180613 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, exactly. < 1787546287 806249 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye oki < 1787546302 211085 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :"found by Gemini" :sob: < 1787546346 406162 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :unrelated we looked at the wiki page for that "YES WAY!" esolang that kept getting edited during this convo < 1787546358 286201 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :> YES WAY! is a esolang where you play blue sphere to execute 3 instruction brainfuck and it writes deadfish to a text field which can queue inputs back to blue sphere! < 1787546359 487269 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esolangs : :1:23: error: parse error on input `where' < 1787546363 587948 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ope < 1787546392 137044 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :# Computational class < 1787546392 223105 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Within Blue Sphere itself YES WAY! is able to go to the menu. < 1787546396 470674 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yeah, Miui's not really understanding the point of the wiki. I think most of their work is artlangs. Which is allowed, to be clear. The chatbot-generated pages are not okay but I don't think that they've read the rules. < 1787546413 402120 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea like < 1787546419 46346 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :was that last sentence made by a markov chain or msth < 1787546420 370356 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :smth* < 1787546484 783345 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay anyways why did you think first class and second class syntax was important here < 1787546607 921167 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :In a fragment like `main[main[0]]`, is it possible to reference `main[0]` first-class, or must it be second-class? Like, does the machine require an offset here? Some assembly languages do have that sort of thing, like the infamous x86 LEA instructions. < 1787546653 819022 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Certainly `0` and `1` are first-class, guessing from the other fragments. Are those things that the machine can manipulate too, or are they constants for y'all the programmers? < 1787546656 49899 :Guest97!~Guest82@2001:4450:493b:cb00:f89d:cff7:5cf:f6d7 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Guest82 < 1787546687 600577 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea was that the value of `main[0]` would be passed to the outer `main[...]` < 1787546691 690239 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I know my tone's not the best; again, I'm trying to open up options for exploration, not to demand answers right now. < 1787546692 375323 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as if it were a function < 1787546696 372441 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its oki its oki < 1787546715 397701 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ur tone is completely natural to us if ur worried < 1787546740 837009 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so ya `main[0]` would be first class < 1787546772 262722 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which wouldnt work cuz it leads us to the same problem we were trying to solve < 1787546781 396962 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so we think it should be second class instead < 1787547046 770560 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea we think thats about all the talk in us for now < 1787547055 888819 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you for helping us so much with this < 1787547064 209261 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya < 1787547065 203156 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hold up! Let me say one thing then. < 1787547065 557615 :MarkFan8901!~lunabee@2601:1c2:4482:1dc0::7f13 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1787547070 45879 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Fuck. < 1787547081 585251 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The fucking insight. The fucking point. Fuck. < 1787547122 851734 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The point was that anything first-class has to be reified in the metainterpreter's theories. Every concept belongs to some theory somewhere, and the metainterp's gotta have a corresponding type or struct or something. < 1787547157 527484 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know why the fuck I bother. Clearly not helping anybody. < 1787547158 951308 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org QUIT :Server closed connection < 1787547213 87490 :Hooloovoo!~Hooloovoo@hax0rbana.org JOIN #esolangs hooloovoo :Hooloovoo < 1787547958 233325 :Guest97!~Guest82@2001:4450:493b:cb00:f89d:cff7:5cf:f6d7 QUIT :Quit: Client closed < 1787547986 724514 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine < 1787548079 44505 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling QUIT :Server closed connection < 1787548090 226330 :laerling!~laerling@user/laerling JOIN #esolangs laerling :lærling < 1787548261 160773 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1787550350 36863 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord > 1787552260 187132 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FlamePL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190090 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14470) 10Created page with "FlamePL is designed by PSTF and his AI assistant. = Overview = FlamePL is a programming language for data analysis and software developing. = Syntax = == Formal EBNF Grammar ==
(* Lexical tokens (terminals) *) letter   = "A" | "B" | ... | "Z" | "a" | "b" .
> 1787552281 978813 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FlamePL/Python Interpreter14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190091 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+37017) 10Created page with "
 import re import sys import math from decimal import Decimal, getcontext  # Set high precision for arbitraryprecision floats getcontext().prec = 80  # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- #  Data types # 
> 1787552334 617572 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190092&oldid=189992 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+14) 10
> 1787552994 811190 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190093&oldid=189976 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+75) 10/* Optional extensions */  allow ignoring whitespaces
> 1787553157 343746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07FlamePL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190094&oldid=190090 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+29) 10tag as slop
> 1787553184 531157 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190095 5* 03None1 5* (+1933) 10Created page with "'''Ghmi-Asden Tnauin''' (or '''GAT''', anagram for "Anti-Human Design") is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. It's not made hard to program in, but made hard to use by humans. This esolang is user-edited and you can add features that make it even harder to u
> 1787553487 114868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07GAT14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190096 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10Redirected page to [[Ghmi-Asden Tnauin]]
< 1787553761 943642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1787553772 368700 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu JOIN #esolangs int-e :Bertram
> 1787554478 185886 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190097&oldid=190092 5* 03None1 5* (+24) 10/* G */
> 1787554499 884887 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190098&oldid=190095 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Rules */
> 1787554513 387985 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190099&oldid=190098 5* 03None1 5* (+14) 10/* Features */
> 1787554565 56872 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190100&oldid=189796 5* 03None1 5* (+66) 10/* My Esolangs */
< 1787554587 7072 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1787554648 541575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190101&oldid=190099 5* 03None1 5* (-2) 10/* Examples */
> 1787554665 982885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190102&oldid=190101 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Features/Restrictions */
> 1787554676 740029 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190103&oldid=190102 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Features/Restrictions */
> 1787555721 450060 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190104&oldid=190103 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+2525) 10made it even more confusing. this is just chaotic evil
> 1787555800 95940 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ELVM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190105&oldid=148214 5* 03None1 5* (-8) 10/* Internals */  Update according to newest spec, and fix grammar
> 1787555923 314078 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190106&oldid=190104 5* 03None1 5* (+106) 10/* Rules */
> 1787555942 279947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190107&oldid=190106 5* 03None1 5* (+12) 10/* Rules */
> 1787556153 221829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190108&oldid=190032 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+247) 10the edit history suggests that 3angle made type 95
> 1787556359 23794 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odmu14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190109 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+25) 10Redirected page to [[User:Klk bb]]
> 1787556368 56961 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Odmu14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190110&oldid=190109 5* 03Klk bb 5* (-25) 10Blanked the page
> 1787556393 899835 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Candidates for deletion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190111&oldid=173708 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+11) 10
> 1787556398 90870 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190112&oldid=190107 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Features/Restrictions */
< 1787556457 449017 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com JOIN #esolangs lisbeths :lisbeths
> 1787556527 715548 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190113&oldid=190112 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+13) 10/* Features/Restrictions */
> 1787556551 398081 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190114&oldid=190113 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
> 1787556637 991686 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190115&oldid=190114 5* 03None1 5* (+61) 10/* Rules */
< 1787556846 679814 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787556847 402405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190116&oldid=190115 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+253) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
> 1787557050 105323 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190117&oldid=190116 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */  fix typo
> 1787557074 176605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190118&oldid=190117 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
> 1787557238 53049 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190119&oldid=189167 5* 03None1 5* (+361) 10/* I made a new user-edited esolang */ new section
> 1787557248 117203 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:PrySigneToFry14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190120&oldid=190119 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* I made a new user-edited esolang */
> 1787557473 239925 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190121&oldid=190079 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (-276) 10/* QUINE */ Shorter QUINE (4032 > 3756)
< 1787558319 544436 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1787558851 428590 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190122&oldid=190118 5* 03None1 5* (+8) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
< 1787558945 646083 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1787558971 925813 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1787559241 906622 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1787559281 48851 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1787559761 483235 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190123&oldid=190108 5* 03None1 5* (+527) 10/* Type 103 */
> 1787559805 542275 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190124&oldid=190123 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Type 104 */
> 1787559909 201746 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190125&oldid=190124 5* 03None1 5* (+26) 10
> 1787560635 228706 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190126&oldid=190125 5* 03Raiseafloppafan7741 5* (+4) 10/* Uncomputable */ add Type 105 to list of uncomputable dialects
< 1787561427 475186 :gAy_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon QUIT :Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in
< 1787561444 316074 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon JOIN #esolangs ad :Roy Mustang, The Flame Alchemist
< 1787561510 531554 :A_Dragon!A_D@libera/staff/dragon NICK :gAy_Dragon
> 1787561807 876845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190127&oldid=190126 5* 03None1 5* (+280) 10/* Type 105 */
> 1787561847 750545 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190128&oldid=190127 5* 03None1 5* (+4) 10/* Uncomputable */
> 1787561933 300555 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190129&oldid=190128 5* 03None1 5* (+138) 10/* Type 97 */
> 1787562024 301678 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190130&oldid=190129 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Type 104 */
> 1787562313 118525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190131&oldid=190130 5* 03None1 5* (+378) 10/* Type 78 */
> 1787562351 750735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190132&oldid=190122 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Hello, World! */
> 1787562402 711114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190133&oldid=190131 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10
< 1787562541 339607 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1787562542 222639 :chloetax!~chloe@user/chloetax JOIN #esolangs chloetax :chloe
> 1787562744 622864 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190134&oldid=190133 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Type 97 */
< 1787562910 177079 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
> 1787563491 896367 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:CL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190135 5* 03None1 5* (+60) 10Created page with "[[Constant language|ConstantLanguage]]({{{1}}})"
> 1787563527 695417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Nope.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190136&oldid=188825 5* 03None1 5* (-24) 10
> 1787563619 764866 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UCL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190137 5* 03None1 5* (+374) 10Created page with ":{{Distingush/Confusion|UClang|UClang*}} '''UCL''' ('''U'''ncomputable '''C'''onstant '''L'''anguage) is an esolang invented by [[User:None1]]. Every program prints the [[wikipedia:Chaitin's constant]], so it's {{CL|C}} where C is the Chaitin's constant. [[Category:2026]] [[Ca
> 1787563631 472104 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UCL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190138&oldid=190137 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10
> 1787563708 405935 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UCL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190139&oldid=190138 5* 03None1 5* (+71) 10
> 1787563729 349383 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190140&oldid=190083 5* 03None1 5* (+52) 10/* General languages */
> 1787563761 854204 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:None114]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190141&oldid=190100 5* 03None1 5* (+52) 10/* My Esolangs */  2 esolangs a day!
> 1787563808 402650 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190142 5* 03None1 5* (+31) 10Redirected page to [[Constant language]]
> 1787563876 19549 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Template:QACL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190143 5* 03None1 5* (+81) 10Created page with "[[Constant_language#Quine avoidance|QuineAvoiding]]({{{1}}},{{{2}}})"
> 1787564039 271357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190144&oldid=190134 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Dialects created in 2025 */  Fix a number of typos
> 1787565118 531512 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190145&oldid=190132 5* 03Miui 5* (+31) 10/* Examples */ actual right-alignment
> 1787565220 444013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Kak14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190146&oldid=189783 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+372) 10/* This is Turing complete! */
> 1787565309 552118 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190147&oldid=190145 5* 03Miui 5* (+1) 10/* Examples */ to fix thing with cat
> 1787565400 211592 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:ChuckEsoteric0814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190148&oldid=189719 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (-382) 10/* Some notable languages without known computational class */  Kak is proven to be TC and I actually had written a proof before for a language similar to Mountain/Old before
< 1787565623 61010 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 247 seconds
> 1787567233 454324 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190149&oldid=190147 5* 03Miui 5* (+49) 10/* Examples */ make it harder to read for humans
> 1787567664 145424 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190150&oldid=190149 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-49) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/190149|190149]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) revert vandalism
> 1787568059 727023 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190151 5* 03Miui 5* (+218) 10Created page with "wasnt vandalism :~( people keep saying that and it makes it harder to learn if i did something wrong and have communcation. and ais doesnt like me~~~~"
> 1787568215 944565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190152&oldid=190150 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (-32) 10Miui, you vandal
> 1787568339 266631 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190153&oldid=190151 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (-218) 10If you believe this isn't a vandal go&talk to ais523
> 1787568969 60371 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190154 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+327) 10yet again
> 1787569521 40552 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190155&oldid=187410 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-4) 10fix example
> 1787569582 988523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190156&oldid=190153 5* 03Miui 5* (+117) 10
> 1787569740 972332 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190157&oldid=190156 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+158) 10
> 1787569844 118644 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190158&oldid=190157 5* 03Miui 5* (+316) 10
> 1787570290 296000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190159&oldid=190152 5* 03Miui 5* (+15) 10/* Rules */ wasnt new feature but was a more strict interpretation of a set feature.
> 1787570417 734998 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190160&oldid=190159 5* 03Miui 5* (+48) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */ ban myself
> 1787570427 568408 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190161&oldid=190158 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+163) 10
> 1787570503 930727 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0742 (klk bb)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190162 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+724) 10Created page with "'''42''' ''(klk bb)'' is an [[esoteric programming language|esolang]] with only two possible commands. Its main purpose is to output either 42 or 0.  The language is intentionally very simple. The . command outputs the Answer to 
> 1787570548 21511 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190163&oldid=190075 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+20) 10
> 1787570560 896563 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190164&oldid=190161 5* 03None1 5* (+476) 10This is clearly vandalism
> 1787570605 529668 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190165&oldid=190160 5* 03None1 5* (-63) 10This is clearly vandalism
> 1787570649 238036 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190166&oldid=190165 5* 03None1 5* (+48) 10/* Rules */
> 1787570681 81904 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190167&oldid=190166 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Rules */
> 1787570723 146528 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190168&oldid=190164 5* 03Miui 5* (+363) 10
> 1787570806 382933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190169&oldid=190168 5* 03None1 5* (+457) 10
> 1787571195 811011 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190170&oldid=190167 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+301) 10
> 1787571250 863685 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190171&oldid=190170 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+363) 10
> 1787571469 664091 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190172&oldid=190169 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+320) 10
> 1787571474 368810 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190173&oldid=190154 5* 03Ractangle 5* (+212) 10
> 1787571750 35645 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190174&oldid=190173 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+1220) 10
> 1787571778 125405 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190175&oldid=190171 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+156) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */ only physcopaths can use print(). --[[ErrorFull]]
< 1787571825 804948 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1787571876 834624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190176&oldid=190174 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+252) 10
< 1787572078 874632 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Server closed connection
> 1787572081 193554 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190177&oldid=190175 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+70) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
< 1787572092 123401 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
> 1787572236 811983 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190178&oldid=190176 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-8) 10
> 1787572562 849404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190179&oldid=190178 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+180) 10
> 1787573161 887264 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190180&oldid=190177 5* 03None1 5* (+3) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */  fix typo
> 1787573319 322524 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190181&oldid=190172 5* 03None1 5* (+564) 10/* Restriction seem to contradict with the examples */ new section
> 1787573566 752538 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190182&oldid=190181 5* 03None1 5* (-5) 10
> 1787573609 961558 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190183&oldid=190182 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Restriction seem to contradict the examples */
> 1787573619 278116 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190184&oldid=190179 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+1138) 10
> 1787573698 241115 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190185&oldid=190183 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+96) 10/* Restriction seems to contradict the examples */
> 1787573724 505578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190186&oldid=190180 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+13) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
< 1787573725 75878 :amby!~ambylastn@46.162.147.147.dyn.plus.net JOIN #esolangs amby :realname
> 1787573878 178773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mira14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190187 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+546) 10Created page with "{{wip}} [[Mira]] is a small [[esoteric programming language]] and [[brainfuck]] derivative that removes half of Brainfuck's commands, replaces the remaining ones, and adds a couple of its own instructions. {| !Command!!description |- |||bf + then output ascii |- |||bf < |- |
> 1787573910 778378 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Mira14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190188&oldid=190187 5* 03Klk bb 5* (-4) 10
> 1787573984 728426 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190189&oldid=190163 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+10) 10
> 1787574214 840585 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ABCDirection14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190190&oldid=189072 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-99) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/189072|189072]] by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]])
> 1787574808 255992 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UCL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190191 5* 03Corbin 5* (+350) 10Fix a misconception. What was the point of this page?
< 1787575398 675180 :somefan_!~somefan_@204.122.112.169 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] somefan_
> 1787575498 817690 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ORK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190192&oldid=188914 5* 03None1 5* (+9624) 10Add quine
> 1787575513 303208 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ORK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190193&oldid=190192 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10/* Quine */
> 1787575612 165895 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UCL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190194&oldid=190139 5* 03None1 5* (+18) 10
> 1787575634 281444 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UCL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190195&oldid=190191 5* 03None1 5* (+283) 10
< 1787576340 930265 :korvo!~korvo@2604:a880:4:1d0::4d6:d000 PRIVMSG #esolangs :^^ Anybody computed Chaitin's constant for brainfuck? I think I'm getting nerd-sniped.
< 1787576366 822590 :somefan_!~somefan_@204.122.112.169 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1787576542 874768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1787576555 33901 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu JOIN #esolangs * :b_jonas
> 1787576570 634744 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190196&oldid=190186 5* 03None1 5* (+1) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */  not a typo
< 1787576633 313045 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787576682 652763 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Deadfish&14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190197 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+527) 10Created page with "[[deadfish&]] is a combination of [[&]] and [[deadfish]]. That is, it is the same [[deadfish]], but it will not run if it exists.  ==python interpreter== 
 a = 0  try:     a     raise SyntaxError("This esolang exists") except NameError:     a = 0     for c in input(
> 1787576682 919773 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:UCL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190198&oldid=190195 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+360) 10There's no single value for brainfuck. Brainfuck implementations are different
> 1787576706 690114 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190199&oldid=190189 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+15) 10
> 1787576819 388111 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190200&oldid=189824 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+3695) 10
< 1787576843 35110 :mosdfisdnfdisnf!~mrsommer@2a02-a452-6df7-0-e17b-1ae6-c3e1-fefb.fixed6.kpn.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 247 seconds
> 1787576866 130017 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater6714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190201&oldid=189680 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+62) 10
> 1787577472 655082 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190202&oldid=190200 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-71) 10/* Overview */ remove duplicate entry
> 1787578161 785722 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190203&oldid=190196 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+41) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */ This esolang is nearly full
> 1787578304 581726 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190204&oldid=190202 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-1) 10fix typo
> 1787578464 87578 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190205&oldid=190184 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+6408) 10
> 1787578787 491840 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190206&oldid=190205 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (+453) 10
> 1787578892 945597 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:PrySigneToFry14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190207&oldid=189107 5* 03PrySigneToFry 5* (-51) 10
> 1787578917 486951 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190208&oldid=190203 5* 03None1 5* (+551) 10Not yet
< 1787578934 72380 :duo_lepores!~duo_lepor@host-109-233-92-13.jmdi.pl JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] duo_lepores
> 1787578959 195569 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190209&oldid=190208 5* 03None1 5* (+0) 10/* Features, restrictions, and twists */
> 1787579000 767845 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190210&oldid=190209 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10/* Rules */
> 1787579048 755287 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07UCL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190211&oldid=190194 5* 03None1 5* (-1) 10
< 1787579097 178591 :hypha!~hypha@user/hypha QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1787579111 69105 :hypha!~hypha@user/hypha JOIN #esolangs hypha :hypha
< 1787579162 207656 :duo_lepores!~duo_lepor@host-109-233-92-13.jmdi.pl QUIT :Client Quit
> 1787579328 322705 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Ghmi-Asden Tnauin14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190212&oldid=190210 5* 03None1 5* (+2) 10/* Cat */
< 1787579680 35453 :duo_lepores!~duo_lepor@host-109-233-92-13.jmdi.pl JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] duo_lepores
< 1787579691 322881 :duo_lepores!~duo_lepor@host-109-233-92-13.jmdi.pl QUIT :Client Quit
> 1787579949 939231 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190213&oldid=190204 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+7) 10who ate the string
> 1787580481 507854 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:FlamePL14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190214&oldid=190206 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+650) 10/*  You've said enough, right? Fine, the counterattack starts now. */ ok
> 1787581327 532933 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190215&oldid=190213 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+0) 10WHYYYYYY
< 1787582691 772821 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1787584288 532332 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1787584399 319438 :kibty!~kiuty@user/kibty QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1787586847 268857 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190216&oldid=189016 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-464) 10cleanup of unnecessary content
> 1787586881 839189 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190217&oldid=190216 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+9) 10
> 1787587069 597491 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/1314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190218&oldid=189733 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (-19) 10
> 1787587469 50177 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFUCK14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190219&oldid=135647 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+33) 10
> 1787587482 108510 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07CFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190220&oldid=118485 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+33) 10
< 1787587618 282403 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1787587776 219768 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07RuleLoader14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190221&oldid=182768 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+8) 10Fix link
< 1787588119 42218 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1787588299 100712 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1787588326 769689 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190222&oldid=190217 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+63) 10/* Number esolangs */ there's probably more but for now I only remember the two 99s
< 1787588412 75443 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787588764 186062 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:2DChanger14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190223&oldid=184776 5* 03ChuckEsoteric08 5* (+5) 10/* TC proof sketch */
< 1787589748 876053 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1787589886 98546 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN #esolangs * :rodgort
> 1787590988 989999 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190224&oldid=190222 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+28) 10/* Number esolangs */ 67s
> 1787591682 477300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190225&oldid=190224 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+69) 10
< 1787592527 520477 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1787592632 935559 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190226&oldid=190225 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+190) 10/* Number esolangs */ how could I forget the yearlangs (and 256)
< 1787592910 114680 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1787593632 836653 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1787594292 756286 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07?index.php14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190227&oldid=190215 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+30) 10i just realized that this is golfable
> 1787595085 529934 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang2026 topicality proposal14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190228 5* 03Assembly 5* (+363) 10Created page with "'''Esolang2026 topicality proposal''' is a joke esolang made by [[User:Assembly]].  == Commands == === Funny commands === {{cd|explode(x)}} {{cd|variable_evilKumquat(x).exists?}} {{cd|six_seven(x)}} its 2026. Moved to the section below  ==
> 1787595108 920422 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang2026 topicality proposal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190229&oldid=190228 5* 03Assembly 5* (+4) 10
< 1787595402 391348 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787595572 603984 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190230&oldid=189823 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+4) 10
> 1787595587 535085 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190231&oldid=190230 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+1) 10
> 1787595601 239838 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190232&oldid=190231 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (+2) 10
> 1787595630 177468 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190233&oldid=190232 5* 03Dragoneater67mobile 5* (-22) 10
> 1787595978 275648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang2026 topicality proposal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190234&oldid=190229 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+74) 10distinguish
> 1787595985 522102 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang2026 topicality proposal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190235&oldid=190234 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-4) 10
> 1787596074 386820 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:NO WAY? NO WAY!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190236&oldid=189224 5* 03Miui 5* (+177) 10
> 1787596184 391487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Immutable Brainfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190237 5* 03Rainwave 5* (+4085) 10New language!
> 1787596202 306621 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang2026 topicality proposal14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190238&oldid=190235 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+4) 10really?
> 1787596446 230223 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Rainwave14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190239&oldid=189570 5* 03Rainwave 5* (+30) 10Added Immutable Brainfuck
> 1787596536 4415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190240&oldid=190097 5* 03Rainwave 5* (+26) 10Added Immutable Brainfuck
< 1787596673 986512 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
> 1787596999 244461 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190241&oldid=190199 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+1261) 10
< 1787597120 971541 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787597553 384766 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Klk bb 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Arsenic.svg.webp10]]"
> 1787597751 198342 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Zip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190243&oldid=190042 5* 03KamilMalicki 5* (-29) 10
< 1787598530 90273 :kibty!~kiuty@user/kibty JOIN #esolangs kibty :kbity,  onn znc,
< 1787598772 59162 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 JOIN #esolangs DOS_User :[https://web.libera.chat] DOS_User_webchat
< 1787599431 644160 :DOS_User_webchat!~DOS_User_@user/DOS-User:11249 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1787600542 225419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07File talk:Arsenic.svg.webp14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190244 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+353) 10Created page with "seems to be taken from [[commons:File:Arsenic.svg]], which isn't public domain ~~~~"
> 1787601187 518277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190245&oldid=190241 5* 03Klk bb 5* (-1252) 10
> 1787601244 931669 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Immutable Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190246&oldid=190237 5* 03Rainwave 5* (+27) 10Just one more category
< 1787602534 853989 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu
> 1787603523 410494 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190247 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+752) 10Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title= ||}} ''(without nowiki tags that you see in the source code)'' 
__TOC__
'''||''' is a joke programming language developed by [[User:Klk bb]] in 2026. It self-interprets any code other t > 1787603569 411344 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190248&oldid=190245 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+17) 10 > 1787604168 464624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Klk bb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190249&oldid=190248 5* 03Klk bb 5* (+0) 10 > 1787604204 914742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Klk bb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190250&oldid=189915 5* 03Assembly 5* (+165) 10/* August 2026 */ new section > 1787604470 149164 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Assembly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190251&oldid=136097 5* 03Assembly 5* (+14) 10 > 1787604527 397238 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Assembly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190252&oldid=190251 5* 03Assembly 5* (+37) 10 > 1787604543 164407 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Assembly14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190253&oldid=190252 5* 03Assembly 5* (+4) 10 > 1787604559 744425 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190254&oldid=190247 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (-108) 10 > 1787604568 986702 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190255&oldid=190254 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+18) 10/* Commands */ > 1787605170 584013 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190256 5* 03Assembly 5* (+332) 10Created page with "''' (key)''' is an esolang created by [[User:Assembly]]. == Commands == None of the CJK text are real words. === Structuring the code === :''In short: = open, = close'' To structure the code, we need opening and closing parentheses to format C-shapes. ==== Example ====
> 1787605201 881027 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190257&oldid=190256 5* 03Assembly 5* (+58) 10
> 1787605318 324404 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190258&oldid=190257 5* 03Assembly 5* (+17) 10/* Commands */
< 1787605687 100371 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1787605892 844714 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
> 1787606153 935280 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07P14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190259&oldid=145384 5* 03Miui 5* (+132) 10/* External resources */ pushin P
> 1787606177 974615 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07QACL14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=190260 5* 03Assembly 5* (+47) 10Redirected page to [[Constant language#Quine avoidance]]
> 1787606187 582233 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07P14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190261&oldid=190259 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+24) 10restore cat
> 1787606377 21377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07P14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190262&oldid=190261 5* 03Miui 5* (+14) 10/* External resources */ fix link to interpreter
< 1787606855 92816 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca QUIT :Server closed connection
< 1787606993 544638 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca JOIN #esolangs zzo38 :zzo38
< 1787607337 1842 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1787608051 735877 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 JOIN #esolangs * :Textual User
< 1787609237 637531 :lisbeths!uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1787609267 439184 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190263&oldid=125661 5* 03Miui 5* (+56) 10/* Interpreter */
< 1787609461 106088 :tromp!~textual@2001:1c00:340e:2700:c0f0:45bd:2bf8:7784 QUIT :Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…
< 1787610506 64476 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
> 1787612252 234575 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Clockwise14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190264&oldid=153954 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+3) 10
> 1787612272 53878 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Streetcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190265&oldid=78016 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+101) 10
> 1787612294 144525 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Line14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190266&oldid=83736 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+101) 10
> 1787612317 25653 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Flowchart14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190267&oldid=175580 5* 03Bangyen 5* (+101) 10
> 1787614175 73828 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07M@trix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190268&oldid=174380 5* 03Mysonandadthatnosense 5* (+27) 10
> 1787614259 757431 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07M@trix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=190269&oldid=190268 5* 03Mysonandadthatnosense 5* (-425) 10Removed the matrix obfuscator run tutorial, as its too long to be ran on any python.