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01:07:03 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Unary-encoded bases]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191230&oldid=191214 * Aadenboy * (+45050) 
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01:40:39 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Unary-encoded bases]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191231&oldid=191230 * Aadenboy * (+328) 
01:46:45 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Unary-encoded bases]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191232&oldid=191231 * Aadenboy * (+380) 
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02:03:14 <aadenboy> int-e: you could omit delimiters with a bijective encoding if each digit uses a different character, such as "AAABBAAAABBBA"
02:05:20 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Unary-encoded bases]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191233&oldid=191232 * Aadenboy * (-24) 
02:12:31 <esolangs> [[XKCD Random Number]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191234&oldid=191229 * Miui * (+371) /* Piet++ */ add portable pixmap version
02:14:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:Piet++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191235 * Miui * (+9895) Created page with "=Interpreter= <pre> """Piet++ interpreter (per https://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet%2B%2B).  Navigation follows Piet. Commands are selected by the transition between colour blocks: dG mod 2, dR mod 4, dB mod 4 over the 4-level colour space. """ from PIL import Image  LEVEL =
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02:21:45 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/InDev/+$InMemNanoG=]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191236&oldid=183653 * Miui * (-155) found another old sketch to blank
02:31:26 <esolangs> [[Usernames]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191237&oldid=190871 * PrySigneToFry * (+1475) 
02:34:10 <esolangs> [[Piet++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191238&oldid=117409 * PrySigneToFry * (+160) Fix format so that on deep background you can read text clearly
02:35:57 <esolangs> [[++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191239 * Miui * (+2540)   (Create page)
02:39:28 <esolangs> [[++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191240&oldid=191239 * Miui * (+0) Pronounced: "eng"
02:42:52 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191241&oldid=186713 * PrySigneToFry * (+5658) 
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03:04:42 <esolangs> [[NotDeadfish++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191242&oldid=190602 * Cordership * (+64) 
03:15:32 <esolangs> [[Trivial bf substitution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191243 * Marcus 2n2 * (+44) Redirected page to [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]]
03:16:34 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191244&oldid=191171 * Cordership * (+91) 
03:18:41 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191245&oldid=191244 * Cordership * (+7) 
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03:43:49 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191246 * Marcus 2n2 * (+1050) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|O}} '''''' is an esolang made by [[User:Marcus 2n2]] where every symbol is an O, making it really hard to distinguish. This is basically a [[trivial bf substitution]]. ==Instructions== {| class="wikitable" |+ Instructions |- ! [[bf]] !!  |- | + || O 
03:44:53 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191247&oldid=191246 * Marcus 2n2 * (+24) 
03:46:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Piet++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191248&oldid=191235 * Miui * (+116) /* Interpreter */
03:48:31 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191249&oldid=191032 * Marcus 2n2 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */
03:50:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Piet++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191250&oldid=191248 * Miui * (-9859) Moved interpreter to repositor and added an IDE.
03:54:15 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191251&oldid=191247 * Marcus 2n2 * (+89) /* Examples */
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05:04:21 <int-e> aadenboy: Sure. But then you need more characters or a completely different encoding to find the end of numbers.
05:09:57 <int-e> aadenboy: aadenboy: There are other silly ways to move the goalpoast. For example, you could use / for n := 2*n, 1 for n := 2*n + 1, 11 for n := 4*n + 3, 111 for n := 8*n+7, etc. This looks a bit similar to one of those unary schemes, but it's really the ordinary base 2 representation with the effect of runs of 1s compressed into a single step.
05:10:45 <int-e> aadenboy: (And once again you'd still need to squeeze in an end-of-number indicator too.)
05:15:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cordership/List of users from both Esolang and ConwayLife forums]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191252&oldid=187641 * Cordership * (+152) 
05:31:44 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191253&oldid=189321 * Cordership * (+27) /* The people that I (dis)like */
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05:48:49 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191254&oldid=191196 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1108) /* Semantics */
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05:57:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/xml maybe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191255 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+154) Created page with "I might try to finish it if thats ok. --~~~~"
06:06:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Vines]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191256&oldid=189526 * AeroPurple * (+534) 
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06:46:40 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191257&oldid=191201 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+655) /* Some strange questions and thoughts and ideas */
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07:04:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191258 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+309) Created page with "<pre><nowiki>{{lowercasetitle}}</nowiki></pre> is not actually a real template, use <pre><nowiki>{{lowercase}}</nowiki></pre> instead --~~~~"
07:04:33 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191259&oldid=191258 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+5) 
07:04:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191260&oldid=191259 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1) fix typo
07:15:26 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191261&oldid=191254 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1984) 
07:18:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191262&oldid=191260 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+241) 
07:18:57 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191263&oldid=191261 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+72) 
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07:29:06 <MarkFan8901> dude holy shit
07:29:24 <MarkFan8901> we checked a random lang from the irc log
07:29:26 <MarkFan8901> by miui
07:29:30 <MarkFan8901> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Eselangs
07:29:36 <MarkFan8901> this is just straight up racismlang
07:29:48 <MarkFan8901> they made racistscript
07:30:01 <esolangs> [[4ME]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191264&oldid=161545 * Ractangle * (+5) /* See Also */  updating shi
07:30:06 <MarkFan8901> that is all
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07:36:23 <esolangs> [[BODOKE2801's Redirect]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191265&oldid=175172 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+17) 
07:36:32 <esolangs> [[BODOKE2801's Redirect]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191266&oldid=191265 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1) 
07:38:02 <int-e> I... don't quite understand where MarkFan8901 got that idea. I mean, I see the slang, but I don't see intent. Is this a Jar Jar Binks situation?
07:39:21 <int-e> (It is a superfluous esolang though; there's not much there in terms of semantics, and that's being generous :P)
07:43:58 <APic> Hi
07:50:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191267&oldid=170787 * Cordership * (+215) 
07:51:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Cordership]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191268&oldid=188375 * Cordership * (+149) /* more beer pls */
07:56:44 <esolangs> [[Opal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191269&oldid=152557 * Ractangle * (-466) what the 4me bro
07:57:52 <esolangs> [[Template:AbandonedFree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191270&oldid=129378 * Ractangle * (+17) 
07:58:01 <esolangs> [[TISC (Esolang)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191271&oldid=180186 * Ractangle * (-9) 
08:02:31 <esolangs> [[Input hello world or else:/the file in questoin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191272&oldid=138759 * Ractangle * (-46) Removed redirect to [[Input hello world or else:/the file in question]]
08:05:35 <esolangs> [[User:Ractangle/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191273&oldid=188732 * Ractangle * (+16) /* Stuff */
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08:13:55 <esolangs> [[Snakel/Errors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191274&oldid=150644 * Ractangle * (+7) Changed redirect target from [[Snakel]] to [[Snakel#Errors]]
08:22:31 <esolangs> [[Queue-based esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191275&oldid=151202 * Ractangle * (+13) /* Interpreters */
08:22:53 <esolangs> [[Queue-based esolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191276&oldid=191275 * Ractangle * (-88) /* See also */ dang it
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08:33:22 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191277&oldid=191245 * Cordership * (+54) /* Sgn Machine */
08:39:25 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191278&oldid=191277 * Cordership * (+168) /* User:PrySigneToFry/ function */
08:44:51 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191279&oldid=191278 * Cordership * (+122) /* Syntax */
08:45:31 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191280&oldid=191279 * Cordership * (-8) /* Examples */
08:48:22 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191281&oldid=191280 * Cordership * (+9) 
08:50:34 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191282&oldid=191281 * Cordership * (+167) /* Syntax */
08:51:18 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191283&oldid=191282 * Cordership * (+59) /* Syntax */
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09:04:05 <esolangs> [[Template:TBS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191284 * None1 * (+165) Created page with "[[trivial brainfuck substitution]] <code>TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution("{{{1}}}", "{{{2}}}", "{{{3}}}", "{{{4}}}", "{{{5}}}""{{{6}}}", "{{{7}}}", "{{{8}}}")</code>"
09:05:29 <esolangs> [[Template:TBS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191285&oldid=191284 * None1 * (-1) 
09:07:53 <esolangs> [[Dule]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191286&oldid=190756 * None1 * (+65) 
09:08:01 <esolangs> [[Dule]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191287&oldid=191286 * None1 * (+3) 
09:08:08 <esolangs> [[Dule]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191288&oldid=191287 * None1 * (+1) 
09:09:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191289&oldid=191267 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+139) 
09:10:17 <esolangs> [[Dule]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191290&oldid=191288 * None1 * (+90) 
09:10:28 <esolangs> [[Len(language,encoding)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191291&oldid=139749 * None1 * (+11) /* See also */
09:10:40 <esolangs> [[OCPL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191292&oldid=177638 * None1 * (+11) /* See also */
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09:21:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF Joust strategies]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191293&oldid=189648 * None1 * (+343) /* Dead links */  For the trace and animations, I'm developing a web page for that.
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09:27:03 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191294&oldid=191283 * Cordership * (+29) /* Syntax */
09:29:44 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191295&oldid=191294 * Cordership * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer on the wall */
09:30:40 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191296&oldid=191295 * Cordership * (+3) /* Sgn Machine */
09:30:58 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191297&oldid=191296 * Cordership * (+2) /* Syntax */
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09:36:44 <esolangs> [[BitChanger]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191298&oldid=161379 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+29) /* See also */
09:49:44 <esolangs> [[Simpl]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191299&oldid=191297 * Cordership * (+84) 
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11:13:05 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess I was aiming for one integer, rather than one rational (although I do like the "commands are skipped if the number is negative" construction)
11:13:43 <ais523> arguably Deadfish *already* skips commands when the accumulator is negative (once you allow for the -1 and 256 special cases, it's unobservable whether it does this or not)
11:14:55 <ais523> I guess if you want to do something similar with integers, you have to halve the even bits while doubling the odd bits, or something along those lines
11:15:53 <ais523> (something that crossed my mind is that the -1 and 256 special cases could be retained without having a meaningful TCness impact because most TC programs would never reach those specific states when compiled)
11:16:18 <esolangs> [[Flipfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191300 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1425) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''flipfuck''' is an esolang derived from [[BitChanger]] as an intermediate step when translating it into [[3L]] ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | } || Invert the bit that the current tape cell holds, and move the tape
11:16:25 <ais523> ooh! "reverse digits of number" would provide the right amount of data-storage power and yet wouldn't be totally out of place in a Deadfish derivative
11:18:09 <esolangs> [[Flipfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191301&oldid=191300 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+40) 
11:18:20 <esolangs> [[Miny]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191302&oldid=190902 * PkmnQ * (+1) /* Computational class */ y->f
11:18:28 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191303&oldid=191263 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-55) /* Memory */
11:28:55 <esolangs> [[Rube Goldberg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191304&oldid=191157 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+128) /* ConstantLanguage() */ add some variations
11:33:18 <esolangs> [[Flipfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191305&oldid=191301 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+49) 
11:36:24 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191306&oldid=191257 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+243) 
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11:38:53 <esolangs> [[StackBit]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191307&oldid=169608 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+91) /* Reversible StackBit */
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11:43:49 <esolangs> [[Template:AbandonedFree]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191308&oldid=191270 * Miui * (+2) spelling + punctuation ("permission" + ".")
11:46:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[Template:AbandonedFree]]": misleading template (it implies that pages are owned by particular people and need their permission to edit, which is not true)
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12:02:26 <esolangs> [[TISC (Esolang)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191309&oldid=191271 * Dragoneater67 * (-1) 
12:07:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[TISC (Esolang)]]": redirect left behind after a page move to [[TISC]], it's unlikely that there are many incoming links here and the disambiguator isn't needed
12:10:24 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191310&oldid=191303 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+169) /* Semantics */
12:13:13 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191311&oldid=188312 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+73) 
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12:34:14 <Yayimheretoo> hello once again!
12:34:33 <Yayimheretoo> how are you all doing?
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13:24:42 <b_jonas> ais523: re reverse digits of number => you'll need to make sure that you can transfer some state between the two ends of the deque though
13:24:56 <ais523> hi Yayimheretoo
13:25:28 <Yayimheretoo> hi ais523!
13:25:32 <Yayimheretoo> been a while I feel
13:25:40 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, although that might just be a case of 
13:25:54 <ais523> hmm, I wasn't sure how to finish that sentence and accidentally submitted it rather than backspacing
13:26:02 <Yayimheretoo> huh
13:26:05 <ais523> there isn't an end to the sentence, I guess we'll just have to leave it as half a sentence
13:26:17 <Yayimheretoo> I mean pretty much yea
13:26:18 <ais523> return and backspace are adjacent on most keyboards, I consider this to be a major design mistake
13:26:28 <int-e> a conditional reverse might just be enough
13:26:46 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: are they? huh, never experienced that, on mine they are just very close/near
13:26:53 <ais523> int-e: ooh, like the bit bucket pattern 
13:26:59 <Yayimheretoo> also hows sleep? still having issues?
13:27:20 <ais523> it's been more stable recently but still far from what most people would consider normal
13:27:37 <Yayimheretoo> damn. well atleast its getting better
13:28:49 <esolangs> [[MY E KEY BROKE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191312 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+2788) Created page with "{{WIP}}  '''MY E KEY BROKE''' is an esolang by [[user:raiseafloppafan7741]] in [[:Category:2026|2026]] after realizing the E key on his keyboard completely stopped working. <!-- I'm using my laptop keyboard btw, I hate using laptop keyboards, I prefer
13:29:58 <ais523> I like the comment explaining how the page was written without a working E key
13:30:31 <Yayimheretoo> it seems to say it was written with the working E key but on a laptop
13:30:37 <esolangs> [[MY E KEY BROKE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191313&oldid=191312 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-17) /* Truth-machine */ correct this
13:30:39 <Yayimheretoo> but it is fun nonetheless
13:31:25 <ais523> recently I've been looking quite deeply into unsafe Rust and LLVM IR, both of which are unreasonable to the extent that they could be considered esolangs
13:31:45 <Yayimheretoo> lmao
13:32:12 <Yayimheretoo> on that(though perhaps a bit unrelated), regex's syntax seems very random, aam I crazy?
13:32:43 <ais523> in particular, trying to write efficient unsafe Rust code that actually gives useful optimizer hints (rather than just using raw pointers everywhere) has enough pitfalls and weird things you have to avoid that it feels very like esolang programming
13:33:40 <ais523> mathematical regex is pretty simple and neat, it has only two operators (which in modern regex syntax are (…|…|…) and *
13:33:59 <Yayimheretoo> I really need to progrm in more esolangs but im struggling to find one I have the will to challenge myself with
13:34:14 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: i was reffering to the extended regex normally used in python and whatnot
13:34:19 <Yayimheretoo> I like math regex its great
13:34:23 <ais523> the problem is that practical regexes want a lot more features than that, e.g. [a-z] is easier to write than (a|b|c|d|e|f|g|h|i|j|k|l|m|n|o|p|q|r|s|t|u|v|w|x|y|z)
13:34:45 <ais523> so people kept on adding features and tried to come up with syntax for them that wouldn't break too many existing regexes
13:35:09 <ais523> early regex syntax is even weirder, e.g. + was originally written as \+
13:35:31 <Yayimheretoo> yea that makes sense
13:35:31 <ais523> at some point people realised it made more sense to have backslash-punctuation always be literal, and use bare punctuation marks for new operators
13:35:56 <Yayimheretoo> so \ would be added to an operator?
13:36:01 <Yayimheretoo> and not the other way around?
13:36:04 <ais523> but, that had the problem that they didn't disallow the use of bare punctuation marks to match themselves, so then adding any new operators as punctuation marks would break the existing regexes
13:36:20 <ais523> no, \ was only added to the *new* operators, old operators like * didn't use it and \* would be a literal *
13:36:44 <ais523> that said, I think (…) was written as \(…\) once too
13:36:47 <Yayimheretoo> that seems ridicoulsly confusing
13:36:50 <Yayimheretoo> lmao
13:37:36 <ais523> anyway, having used up pretty much all the possible encodings already, newer operators had to do weird things in order to be backwards compatible
13:37:53 <Yayimheretoo> is that what like... (?:...) is?
13:37:57 <ais523> in particular, most new operators start (? which is invalid in old-fashioned regex because ? is supposed to be preceded by something
13:38:26 <ais523> (?:…) for suppressing capturing may originally have been an accident that caught on
13:38:46 <ais523> the syntax is more general than that, e.g. (?i:…) means "… but case-insensitive"
13:39:02 <Yayimheretoo> ok I guess that makes sense
13:39:10 <ais523> but someone must have realised that you could put no modifiers between the ? and : in order to get a non-capturing group
13:40:05 <Yayimheretoo> […&&[^…]] looks horribly cursed
13:40:23 <Yayimheretoo> i assume a non capturing group js functions like brackets?
13:40:35 <ais523> it's purely for grouping
13:41:07 <ais523> whereas (…) without the ?: is also for grouping, but also most regex runners have a way to tell you what was captured by the first, second, third, etc. (…) group in the regex (so that you can use it as a sort of simple parser
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13:41:44 <ais523> remembering what was matched can be slow in some languages, so the ?: is used as an optimization to tell the regex runner that it doesn't need to remember
13:41:50 <Yayimheretoo> ah ok
13:42:44 <Yayimheretoo> also, js a random thought but how would like flat regex look like? because like regex is flat-nested IIRC
13:43:01 <Yayimheretoo> coulld it stay equally powerful
13:43:06 <Yayimheretoo> or would it have to loose smth
13:49:13 <ais523> I think it's no longer FSM-complete if you do that
13:49:34 <ais523> e.g. I don't think there's a way to flatten (x(a|b)*|x(c|d)*)*
13:49:40 <Yayimheretoo> yea that makes sense
13:49:53 <Yayimheretoo> I wonder what comp class it is though, flat regex
13:50:18 <Yayimheretoo> and the other way around, exclusively nested regex(i.e no concats)
13:50:47 <ais523> strangely, the current version of regex, which does control flow entirely with balanced parentheses, is actually really inefficient for some things
13:50:58 <ais523> it's FSM-complete but the programs are sometimes extremely long, even for simple state machines
13:51:07 <ais523> it would be much more efficient if it had a goto statement
13:51:50 <Yayimheretoo> dijkstra would not be happy
13:52:10 <Yayimheretoo> also what does a regex goto look like anyways
13:52:17 <Yayimheretoo> maybe smth like
13:53:04 <Yayimheretoo> n m -> a b (probably with different syntax, but goto n if a matches, m if b matches)
13:56:26 <ais523> some regex syntaxes added function calls (which makes them PDAs rather than finite state machines), and you can use those to emulate gotos by doing tailcalls
13:56:40 <Yayimheretoo> huh
13:56:42 <ais523> and as a result of that, there wasn't historically a need to add in actual gotos as well, so they didn't have their own syntax
13:57:04 <Yayimheretoo> i assume it stays equally powerful with goto added?
13:57:43 <ais523> yes
13:57:56 <ais523> in terms of computational class, at least (some programs get a lot easier to write)
13:58:23 <Yayimheretoo> yea ok that makes sense.
13:58:39 <Yayimheretoo> it must be the same otherwise too right? like only goto. no bracketw
13:59:07 <ais523> if you have only goto and no brackets then you basically just have a syntax for a nondeterministic finite state machine
13:59:29 <ais523> although you need to implement | somehow, typically by allowing it to goto any of multiple plaes
13:59:30 <ais523> * places
14:01:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191314 * Dragoneater67 * (+238) Created page with "i think itd be a fun challenge to program in this without touching e, shift, or caps lock --~~~~"
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14:10:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191315&oldid=191314 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+423) 
14:12:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191316&oldid=191315 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+389) 
14:15:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191317&oldid=191316 * Dragoneater67 * (+426) 
14:20:42 <esolangs> [[Piet++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191318&oldid=191238 * Miui * (+587) "The goal of Piet++ is to provide a means to limit side effects from manipulating the stack "\n //;;It is unclear to the contributor of this example program whether that specific aspect has been fully debugged.;;//
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14:29:56 <Yayimheretoo> also, I have been thinking of this concept, which I find quite interesting
14:30:27 <Yayimheretoo> so i was working on a GPL just because, and needed a way to store like values globally without needing like...
14:30:37 <Yayimheretoo> a separate kind of statement for assignmemnt
14:30:48 <Yayimheretoo> (I like most things to be able to be placed in an expression if one so wishes)
14:30:51 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191319&oldid=190998 * Miui * (+115) added pseudonaturals sections
14:31:53 <Yayimheretoo> and i endedd up coming up with a global dequeue for that, but to push to that, you need some sort of imperative language, and I ended up with the idea to tie imperative programs onto functional values(i.e constants can have an imperative program tied to it)
14:32:48 <Yayimheretoo> and because the imperative programs controls the queue in which values are stored, it ends up with the weird symmetry in which imperative programs are objects in functional programs, and functional programs are objects in imperative ones!
14:32:55 <Yayimheretoo> and idk why but I find that quite satisfying
14:33:01 <Yayimheretoo> and I wonder if that exists somewhere
14:33:06 <Yayimheretoo> already
14:33:20 <ais523> I've seen similar-shaped patterns in other contexts
14:33:32 <Yayimheretoo> well now im hooked lol
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14:34:25 <ais523> you can create coroutines using continuations, where a coroutine yields by converting itself into a continuation and then passing it somewhere
14:34:42 <Yayimheretoo> huh
14:34:43 <ais523> in that situation, two coroutines can effectively each store the other
14:34:47 <Yayimheretoo> cool
14:34:54 <ais523> (the one that is running stores the one that is not running)
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14:35:21 <Yayimheretoo> it would as such be impossible to run them both at once?
14:35:41 <ais523> with this implementation of coroutines, yes
14:35:56 <Yayimheretoo> well great to know
14:36:08 <ais523> there are implementations that can run two coroutines at once but they are written differently (but running coroutines concurrently but not in parallel is more common)
14:37:01 <ais523> there's also an implementation of B-trees I was working on recently, and just (while writing this sentence) realised was effectively equivalent to the pointer-reversal algorithm for traversing a tree without auxiliary storage
14:37:18 <Yayimheretoo> I feel like that continuation coroutine "duality" might be possible to create in smth like an imperative functional duality language(as described above) in itself?
14:37:33 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: I'll have to google B-trees but sounds cool
14:38:14 <ais523> I wanted to write an implementation of B-trees in safe Rust, and in Rust each object is supposed to have only a single owner (and although it's not quite the case that an object can only reference things it owns, most of the exceptions aren't usable in this case)
14:38:42 <ais523> so, while you are not using the B-trees, the root owns the larger branches, which own the slightly smaller branches, etc. which own the leaves
14:39:31 <ais523> but, while using the trees, say you are looking at a particular branch but want to be able to backtrack, that branch has to have a backreference to the branch nearer to the root, which (in this case) means it has to own it
14:39:47 <ais523> so, as you move around the tree, the ownership direction gets reversed so that it always points away from the part you are currently looking at
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14:41:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Miui *  uploaded "[[File:Xkcd221pgmpiet.png]]"
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14:42:08 <Yayimheretoo> dammit
14:42:17 <Yayimheretoo> my computer crashed again
14:43:00 <Yayimheretoo> well hello again
14:43:16 <ais523> hi again
14:43:58 <Yayimheretoo> thanks, and hi again to you too
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14:45:01 -!- Yayimheretoo has joined.
14:45:08 <Yayimheretoo> well wtf now Libera js disconnected me lol
14:45:16 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietoncracklang]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191321&oldid=190727 * Miui * (+413) add XKCD Random Number example + External Resources & link to IDE
14:51:57 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191322&oldid=191249 * Miui * (+25) /* Pgmpietoncracklang */
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14:59:38 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191323&oldid=191319 * Miui * (+67) add constant languages section
15:01:29 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191324&oldid=191323 * Miui * (+9) /* semi-serious */ .:
15:06:18 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191325&oldid=191306 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+21) /* 2026 - mesmerizer */
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15:08:12 <korvo> int-e (also ais523): Yes, [[Eselang]] is racist. In general, appropriation of Latino gang culture is not great, since it simultaneously demeans Hispanic folk as gang-oriented while also glorifying gang violence. Similar concerns for [[Ganglang]], which appropriates African-American gang culture.
15:09:27 <ais523> so the problem here is to either figure out an existing rule that allows deleting it, or decide that we allowed deleting this sort of thing as an unstated rule all along and it had just never come up before
15:10:40 <Yayimheretoo> I think not-racism is a pretty simple rule that could be justified as unstated
15:10:47 <korvo> The underlying memes are popular in the USA and, when espoused by actual gang members, are usually given a pass. First example that comes to mind is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insane_in_the_Brain which opens with a spoken line, "Who you trying to get crazy with, ese? Don't you know I'm loco?"
15:11:11 <korvo> You don't need a rule or to delete it. Much more important is to understand the underlying racism.
15:11:31 <korvo> Moderator doesn't delete a bad page? Whatever, happens. Moderator doesn't understand USA racial dynamics? That could be a problem.
15:11:54 <Yayimheretoo> thts true
15:11:56 <ais523> well, the problem is more that Miui probably doesn't understand the racial dynamics
15:12:55 <korvo> Racism is correlated with low IQ, brain damage, lack of education, cognitohazardous toxins, etc. Do not expect the typical racist contributor to understand why they are problematic.
15:13:34 <Yayimheretoo> holy wow did not know such statisticss
15:13:49 <ais523> I hate that all the higher-up admins seem to have vanished
15:14:31 <korvo> I continue to think it's hilarious that I'm here, able to to admin tasks, and clearly not trustworthy to be granted admin. I know that the problem isn't a lack of people with admin powers.
15:14:37 <ais523> I've sort-of been left in the position of being a dictator by default, when there are plenty of things that I'm not really qualified to deal with
15:15:16 <ais523> for me the hard part isn't doing the tasks but trying to work out whether I should be doing them
15:15:46 <ais523> for pretty much the site's entire history we've had a "when in doubt just close your browser" rule, which is easy to follow, but has left it a bit undermoderated in the case where the only active admin isn't sure
15:16:53 <ais523> something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/VALGOL is clearly discriminatory / parodying a particular culture in an unkind way
15:17:03 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: I bet you've heard of lead, at least. Not good for neurons. In Miui's case, I think it's lack of education, possibly combined with a language barrier and lots of chatbot usage.
15:17:36 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: I mean I have heard of lead being bad for brains but not the racism correlation
15:17:51 <ais523> I'd be interested in korvo's opinion on whether VALGOL is also a problem (the language, and/or the page about it)
15:18:07 <korvo> ais523: But valley-girl speech isn't associated with a historically-oppressed culture. Moreover, today's racists do not institute anti-valley-girl policies. As a capstone, I've never heard anybody suggest that valley girls are non-human.
15:19:01 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Oh, yeah. Several right-wing beliefs are associated with cognitive impairment. We can sometimes see this happen in real time; in the USA, a senator named Fetterman who was center-left had a stroke, took some brain damage, and shifted dramatically to the right.
15:20:09 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: well then damn
15:20:33 <korvo> ais523: I guess it's worth highlighting that racism is bad not because it discriminates (although it does), not because it's scientifically wrong (although that's true too), but because it results in gross human-rights violations. This isn't a matter of hurt feelings, and indeed I really don't care about peoples' feelings when it comes to racism.
15:21:15 <korvo> I don't think Miui literally draws a line from [[eselang]] to ICE dragging people from their homes, but I certainly perceive how it contributes.
15:21:34 <ais523> I guess it might just be a matter of degree: racism and accentism have both historically lead to discrimination and human-rights violations, but one much more so than the others
15:23:56 <korvo> Meh. I think "accentism" that isn't based in racial animus is a bit of an eye-roll. I do recognize that the UK, having hundreds of local accents, might take it more seriously; however, outside the UK, the fact that RP's rhotic sound is so vacant as to be regularly hallucinated makes it difficult for me to embrace that way of complaining.
15:25:31 <ais523> a quick search about it turned up https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55069048 which is about discrimination based on accents in France
15:27:26 <ais523> korvo: trying to understand your opinions in detail: would you consider something that was racist against hispanic people (in the US) to be equally problematic, or less problematic but still problematic?
15:27:58 <korvo> Sure. It happens in the USA too, as news broadcasting standardized on a single accent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American_English However, it's not a protected trait; instead, we treat it as an instance of ableism, act as if the offender were attacking a speech pathology, and appeal to the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).
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15:28:43 <esolangs> [[Waterfall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191326 * PrySigneToFry * (+1657) Created page with "Waterfall is designed by PSTF. It is somewhat related to Brainfuck.  = Command Set = This program has two data storage: one is a tape, another is three accumulators (a, b, c). {| class="wikitable" |+ Command Table |- ! Command !! Meaning |- | <nowiki>></nowiki> 
15:28:57 <korvo> ais523: More problematic, TBH. Somebody who discriminates against Southern twangs is being a rude dick; somebody who discriminates against Hispanic accents is committing a hate crime and requires some sort of immediate attitude adjustment.
15:29:12 <ais523> korvo: I meant, compared to discrimination against african-americans
15:29:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191327&oldid=191322 * PrySigneToFry * (+16) 
15:30:00 <ais523> my view is along the lines of "both should be equally unacceptable today, but one has caused more damage historically than the other", so I was wondering whether you cared more about the current situation or the history
15:30:05 <korvo> Oh, I don't do oppression olympics. I don't rank racist acts; that's for a judge to do during a criminal trial. Rather, I try to eject racists, and the willingness to offer them a second chance at redemption is the only thing that scales with severity.
15:32:41 <ais523> in terms of the page you're discussing, I think that any racism is of the dogwhistle sort (i.e. it will only be perceived as racist by people who already know that it is racist), in particular there is nothing that can be determined to be racist without outside context
15:33:08 <ais523> I don't currently have that context and suspect that Miui doesn't either
15:33:23 <Yayimheretoo> also Korvo, I know this is kinda irrelevant to the conversation but wanted to say ive been thinking more of the comment you made when we talked about FWODT, that TC languages are created when sloving real problems. ANd recently my langs have been a lot more inspired by real life habits and such. So thanks for the advice.
15:33:34 <Yayimheretoo> (the conversation as of its current state)
15:33:38 <ais523> I think it is not unreasonable to have a rule about deleting this sort of thing, although it would be very hard to enforce in practice
15:35:01 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: That's great to hear.
15:35:19 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: perhaps its best to leave it there so people atleast know its probably not the best idea
15:35:29 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: yea. its a lot more fun
15:35:52 <Yayimheretoo> looking at it from an "its art" perspective it therefore also means a lot more for my life since its abstractions of real experiences
15:36:09 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: the problem is that dogwhistles can nonetheless have a major impact on people who know what they mean (which is why it can be beneficial to not learn what they are, so that you don't get affected by them)
15:36:23 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: thats also true
15:36:29 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191328 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+4100) Created page with " This is a (non-exhaustive) listing of the [[constant language]]s on this wiki, including QuineAvoiding() and QuineInvoking() languages.  == ConstantLanguage() ==  {| class = "wikitable sortable" ! Language !! Aut
15:36:31 <korvo> ais523: Sure, no worries. The general pattern is that administration/management really only do something about racism when there's no longer any plausible ability to deny the presence of racist memes, at which point properly ejecting the racist becomes a huge drama-filled hassle. At the same time, it seems that there's no better thing folks can do than cry Cassandra and point out the structural issues and history.
15:37:09 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191329&oldid=191325 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+86) 
15:37:16 <esolangs> [[FlamePL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191330&oldid=191170 * PrySigneToFry * (+93) 
15:37:31 <ais523> korvo: the other general pattern is that someone who is not actually a racist gets ejected from a community because they are incorrectly suspected of being a racist, which also becomes a huge drama-filled hassle (and potentially a lawsuit for libel)
15:38:11 <ais523> for things like dogwhistles that are often posted intentionally and can plausibly be posted by mistake, this becomes an extremely difficult moderation problem
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15:39:01 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191331&oldid=191328 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+13) /* ConstantLanguage() */ mark UCL as uncomputable
15:39:15 <korvo> Example? I suppose that that happens occasionally, but I haven't seen it. (I have seen *other* accusations do that, though, and agree that in those other situations, prudence is necessary.)
15:39:18 <ais523> wait, how can a constant language be uncomputable, is it outputting an uncomputable constant?
15:39:38 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: yes! thats how
15:39:44 <Yayimheretoo> to my knowledge
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15:39:55 <Yayimheretoo> is there an abbreviation for smth like to mmy knowledge
15:40:03 <ais523> korvo: gah, I'm not sure i have a good example to hand, and may be muddling up various discriminations (especially as many people who discriminate against one thing often also discriminate against other things)
15:40:17 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: AFAIK = "as far as I know" is the most common, I think
15:40:23 <korvo> The traditional one is "AFAIK", "as far as I know", but there's others. "TMK" would be fine if you use it a lot.
15:40:32 <ais523> the nice thing about abbreviations is that you can just start using them and people will catch on eventually
15:40:40 <Yayimheretoo> i will probably be using TMK then
15:40:43 <Yayimheretoo> or ill loose my mind
15:40:56 <ais523> I think I have seen TMK before, although it takes me a bit longer to work out
15:41:01 <Yayimheretoo> funny thing is I used TMI like once bit then was like oh wait...
15:41:09 <Yayimheretoo> thats not what that means!
15:41:18 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191332&oldid=191331 * PrySigneToFry * (+66) 
15:41:26 <ais523> ah yes, it is a constant language outputting Chaitin's constant
15:41:49 <Yayimheretoo> i saw you pointed out smth with that
15:42:03 <ais523> I was reacting to an edit summary posted by esolangs
15:42:04 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191333&oldid=191332 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) Alphabetical order, non-alphanumeric then numeric then alphabetical
15:47:37 <korvo> ais523: No worries. Anyway, I don't think any action needs to be taken. I am kind of surprised that Miui is tolerated as a contributor, but I'm also kind of surprised that I'm tolerated as a contributor, so whatever.
15:48:20 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191334&oldid=191333 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+93) /* ConstantLanguage() */ XKCD random number has "corresponds to ConstantLanguage(4)" on there so why not put that here?
15:49:57 <ais523> the problem from my point of view is trying to determine a) to what *extent* to deal with what Miui is doing, b) how many other pages would need to be deleted as a consequence (for consistency), and c) how much damage would be done as a result
15:50:23 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191335&oldid=191334 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+49) since XKCD Random Number is here, then anything that corresponds to a constant language will be put here too
15:50:41 <ais523> "art that resembles a language specification" has a very long history on the wiki, even though I'm not completely sure it's ontopic
15:50:46 <ais523> and is found in other lists of esolangs too
15:51:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191336 * Dragoneater67 * (+267) Created page with "this probably should be merged into [[Constant language]] at some point, similar to [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] --~~~~"
15:51:25 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: this is relevant to what conversation? (just to clarify im ever so confused)
15:51:29 <ais523> TURKEY BOMB is a classic (https://catseye.tc/view/specs-on-spec/turkey-bomb/turkey-bomb.markdown), and it's on the catseye list which mostly consists of serious esolangs
15:51:52 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: it was a response to "I am kind of surprised that Miui is tolerated as a contributor"
15:52:15 <Yayimheretoo> ah yes ok
15:52:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191337&oldid=191336 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+570) 
15:52:59 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191338&oldid=191337 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1) formatting
15:53:40 <ais523> korvo: in any case, one of the big motivations for the topicality survey/discussion was to try to figure out what to do about Miui's pages
15:53:46 <ais523> but I didn't get enough input to really make decisions
15:54:29 <korvo> ais523: Just like with exercise, sometimes a muscle group needs to start with the easiest exercises that have the simplest motions. There are already pages on the wiki which are already in defiance of policy; for example, some users have more than one personal sandbox page.
15:55:02 <ais523> korvo: were you here for the sandbox wars?
15:55:18 <korvo> I don't remember. I do recall writing the current sandbox policy.
15:55:31 <korvo> I guess if I don't remember it then the answer is "no"~
15:55:51 <ais523> almost certainly, I think if you were here at the time you would have remembered it
15:56:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191339 * I am islptng * (+130) Created page with "DID YOU JUST WROTE THIS YOURSELF?!!! ~~~~"
15:57:04 <Yayimheretoo> I feel like I was at some sort of weird re-startofthefire situation
15:57:09 <ais523> historically, the policy page acted more as a list of observations on how the admins had been observed to act than as a prescriptive guide for admins to follow
15:57:45 <ais523> this made it fairly easy for me to admin things, as I didn't really have to set a policy, just follow what the other admins were doing
15:58:04 <ais523> the "no new categories without discussion" rule came about when someone got unilaterally banned by the old site owner for creating year categories
15:58:25 <ais523> and was intended to protect other people from the same thing happening to them
15:58:41 <Yayimheretoo> which was strange, almost simulacra esque because I had no idea what the original. point was only what it resulted in(which in my case was vandalism of pages)
15:58:41 <ais523> (they were unbanned after a while, but the rule turned out to be a really good one so we kept it)
15:58:52 <Yayimheretoo> thye sandbox wars were so strange lol
16:01:16 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: This is a perennial issue in computing. New students only see the computer's surface, its HCI and UX, and only maybe connect it to various models of computation. The abstractions that a student learns are the newest, easiest, most powerful ones, rather than the ones that were used to build the computer in the first place.
16:02:46 <korvo> In terms of simulacra, there's the additional problem that a computer is always a simulator; the physical reality of a computer is totally disconnected from the simulated behaviors which we perceive inside it. Like, a solid-state computer's physical reality is that the power supply's capacitors will kill you if improperly discharged!
16:02:49 <ais523> I suspect most programmers don't know what most of the levels of abstraction are
16:02:55 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: funny you say that(I think you perhaps have misunderstood what my original message was about, it was about the sandbox wars and what not, but interesting nonetheless), our school teacher has begun doing literally the oppesite in maths, he is going from the basics of "we have a point. Thats an abstraction from this. But how do I describe this
16:02:55 <Yayimheretoo> other thing(a line). Well, let build that from a point!" type shit
16:03:09 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: I mostly likely dont either
16:03:42 <ais523> korvo: do they really not have resistors (or some other discharge mechanism) that ensure that they get safely discharged when there is no power to the system?
16:03:59 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Fun! FWIW that's a historical tradition that goes back to some ancient Greek named Euclid. They wrote a book called Elements. About a century ago, a German named Hilbert wrote down an upgraded version but it's not as common.
16:04:10 <ais523> two lines define a point, two points define a li,en
16:04:13 <ais523> * two points define a line
16:04:39 <ais523> I forget what the third and fourth rules are, but they're pretty natural
16:04:44 <korvo> It turns out that the two-dimensional plane is *very* complicated to define axiomatically; we intuitively know that it's a flat smooth 2D thing, but that's about it.
16:04:48 <ais523> the fifth is the famous one because it's much more complicated than the others
16:04:53 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: yea it is fun! I have heard about elements a bit but never read it
16:05:20 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: isn't the fifth one the one that got us non euclidean geometry cuz somebody was like "what if I just change this a bit" lmao
16:05:37 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: it's because people didn't like how complicated it was so they hoped to prove things without it
16:06:10 <Yayimheretoo> also, im probably drawing parallels that dont exist, but lines can define points, points can define lines, and two coroutines can also store each other, which feel like the same kind of weird self referentialism kinda thing
16:06:12 <Yayimheretoo> idk though
16:06:18 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: yea I know most of the story
16:06:34 <Yayimheretoo> Smth smth veritasium
16:06:37 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: The kind of construction in Elements is called "compass and straight edge". I'm terrible at them but I have a phone game that lets me practice. I think it's called "Euclidea"? The ancients hoped that this sort of thing was universal, and it wasn't until Gauss that we started to have serious proofs that some stuff isn't constructible with compass and straight edge alone.
16:07:20 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: also heard of that! could you technically not call that a computational class, all shapes which are constructible using those two?
16:07:36 <ais523> korvo: isn't it something like "to construct a regular polygon, the number of sides must be a power of 2 times the product of a set of distinct Fermat primes"
16:07:47 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: it's a class but I'm not sure it's a computational class
16:07:56 <ais523> it might be a constructibility class, or something like that
16:08:00 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: well great!
16:08:10 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Instead of self-referentiality, think about *duality*. Two points define a line. Two lines, if they intersect, define a point. What if lines *always* intersect? Then we could imagine that there's a way to turn points into lines, and lines into points. You can search "projective geometry" for more, but be warned that it'll spoil your class.
16:08:34 <korvo> ais523: Something like that. And IIRC we don't know if there's finitely many Fermat primes yet?
16:08:51 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: ive spoiled many of my classes already just by being here
16:09:00 <ais523> korvo: we don't know for certain but it's widely suspected that 65537 is the last one
16:09:09 <Yayimheretoo> like I already know a line is constructed via points ect., its just fun seeing it outside of Esolangs
16:09:22 <Yayimheretoo> where, weirdly enough I have a lot of knowledge from lmao
16:09:45 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: So the way that we measure constructibility is kind of weird at first, but maybe it'll be insightful. Elements is all about using compass and straight edge to *transfer measurements* from one stone to another. Like, if you're a stone cutter and you want to make a lot of identical stones, how do you copy marks from one place to another?
16:10:05 <ais523> this is interesting because the most common algorithm for multiplying really big numbers quickly naturally wants to depend on Fermat primes, but 65537 isn't big enough, so it has to be fudged around to relax some of the constraints
16:10:29 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: note that when ais brought up the coroutine storing each other we were talking about duality, just forgot the word lmao
16:10:32 <ais523> the normal fudge is to use Fermat *numbers* without requiring them to be prime, but then one of the steps in the algorithm processes a lot less data than it's supposed to
16:10:36 <korvo> The compass and straight edge, as well as alterations like the rusty compass which can't change or the copying compass which can be fixed to measure the distance between two points, are examples of real stone-cutting techniques.
16:10:48 <Yayimheretoo> might try to pull on that thread at sum point to see if anythings there
16:10:58 <Yayimheretoo> anyways ill look into projective geometry sounds fun
16:11:05 <ais523> korvo: one thing I like is that you can do some otherwise impossbile constructions by using the compass and straightedge in ways that aren't allowed by the usual theorems
16:11:49 <ais523> e.g. I think there's an algorithm for trisection which relies on jamming the compass next to the straightedge and moving them around until the two compass points are on two lines and the straightedge also passes through a given point
16:12:09 <ais523> this is something you can physically do with a compass and straightedge but is totally not allowed by the traditional rules
16:12:55 <ais523> (to clarify, the compass is right next to the straightedge so that its two points are also points on the straightedge)
16:12:59 <Yayimheretoo> is there a good way to define what you can do physicallly with the two objects in rules or will the physical fuckery of objects always evade rulles
16:13:02 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, I remember the last time I found Fermat numbers and mistakenly thought that they were Fermat primes. Maybe Fermat himself also suffered this! https://math.stackexchange.com/q/2184444/425071 is the version I asked to an audience.
16:13:33 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: probably not, especially given that there are likely a variety of different ways to manufacture compasses
16:13:45 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: yea
16:13:55 <ais523> the technique I specified is probably possible with any compass, but I would expect there to be lots of more compass-specific things you can do
16:14:24 <Yayimheretoo> I mean you could probably make a blender physics simulation and use whatever it allows as the ruleset but that seems very complicated
16:14:25 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Great question! You've hit upon the central question here. So, if we talk about two fixed points that are given to us, and assign the distance between them 1, then what other real numbers can we construct? For example, we can build a square with those points as sides, so we can make √2 and 1/√2.
16:15:05 <ais523> what's the number you have to construct to square the circle? pi?
16:15:29 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: the ruleset question I assume?
16:15:30 <ais523> probably sqrt(pi), thinking about it, but they're both likely to be equally impossible
16:15:43 <korvo> ais523: Yes! Trisection is practically possible and the stone-cutters worked around it easily. Probably the entire reason that graded turns (degrees, grads, etc.) arose was to make those practical; Babylonians had the advantage that 360 was already a nice number for them.
16:16:14 <Yayimheretoo> 36000000000000
16:16:18 <Yayimheretoo> ggreat number
16:16:32 <Yayimheretoo> reminds me I made a 420 joke in class and nobody got it lol
16:16:44 <Yayimheretoo> (we were working with it as a number in some equations)
16:17:04 <Yayimheretoo> and I couldn't stop saying it in English for whatever reason after I made the joke
16:18:44 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Anyway, your more general question leads into physics. We have a bunch of really good idealizations for this, but we think that it's always going to be computationally expensive to simulate physics. Like, exponentially more expensive than just doing the physics experiment directly.
16:19:01 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: yea that makes sense.
16:19:05 <Yayimheretoo> phuckin' physics man
16:19:07 <Yayimheretoo> lmao
16:19:31 <ais523> for my A levels (exams done at 18) I wrote a quantum computer simulator (on a normal computer), it was exponentially slow for complexity class reasons
16:19:32 <Yayimheretoo> and thats why movies should do their explosions IRL, much less computationally expensive!!
16:19:40 <Yayimheretoo> lol
16:19:47 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: damn
16:19:51 <ais523> and did the usual hello world thing of factorizing 15
16:19:51 <Yayimheretoo> was it fun though?
16:20:00 <ais523> I think so, I can't remember much of the details any more though
16:20:03 <korvo> Oh, it gets so much worse. Everything so far has been classical, but there's also quantum computers. Classical computers probably need exponential time to simulate quantum mechanics, but quantum computers can simulate quantum mechanics with only a polynomial slowdown.
16:20:21 <ais523> korvo: but they don't give you the probabilities, just one outcome
16:20:31 <korvo> ais523: Ha, that must have been frustrating to debug.
16:20:39 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: I mean siulating the thing your built upon probably is a little easier to an extent lol
16:21:02 <ais523> korvo: I meant, my simulation gave the whole probability distribution of possible outcomes, but if you run on an actual quantum computer, you only get one outcome at random
16:21:12 <ais523> so the simulation is "more useful" in a sense
16:21:13 <korvo> ais523: Right, Hardy and Holevo leave no room between them. All that computational power, most of which is provably inaccessible.
16:21:46 <korvo> ais523: Oh! Yeah, that makes sense. The composite object would be exponentially large, though, right? So you'd still have to expend the storage for it.
16:21:49 <Yayimheretoo> quantum computer simulating quantum computer simulating...
16:22:18 <ais523> korvo: I think you probably need exponential storage (and definitely need exponential time)
16:22:27 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: They already do that. A single logical qubit is implemented as multiple physical qubits. The reason is that it's easier to error-correct a composite object.
16:22:29 <ais523> actually, from a theoretical computer science point of view, I think the really hard question is why computers obey causality
16:22:44 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: I mean great lol
16:22:53 <ais523> formalizations of programming seem to naturally end up not obeying causality and you have to sort-of force it into the formalizations in a hacky way
16:23:08 <Yayimheretoo> one thing I like about this channel is I can pose smth s a joke and it will be taken as a serious concept to some extent
16:23:10 <ais523> (by "not obey causality" I mean that an event can cause itself)
16:23:44 <Yayimheretoo> was that not like an issue with feather if I understodd
16:23:48 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Think of it as more like amplification than simulation, when we do it that way. Same idea with solid-state electronics: if I put more copper into a wire, making it thicker and bulkier, I'm not changing the digital logic of whether it's low- or high-voltage; instead, I'm changing how reliably it conducts that voltage (and also the minimum voltage required to do useful stuff).
16:24:19 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: yea that makes a lot of sense
16:24:47 <ais523> Yayimheretoo: Feather is a bit more complicated because of the use of multiple timelines, there's an unresolved question about whether an event in one timeline can cause the same event in a different timeline but it becomes hard to even define what "same event" means
16:24:58 <korvo> ais523: So, there's a really basic answer, which is that BQP and PostBQP are distinct classes. However, I feel like that's a sort of Aaronson-tier answer that is technically correct (the quantum computer exits at the edge where we measure everything) but fails to do anything metaphysical for us.
16:25:47 <korvo> Reminded of the cult classic film Primer, where time travel is only possible between two endpoints, between which the traveler bounces multiple times, before exiting at one of the endpoints. (Trust me, this is *not* spoilers. Best low-budget geek film you'll ever watch.)
16:25:51 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: isn't that fundamentally an issue with causality to an extent
16:26:06 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: I'll watch it sure
16:26:17 <ais523> on the LLVM code forge at the moment, there is a debate going on about how noalias (which specifies that parts of memory that are accessed by a given pointer won't be read by other pointers within a certain timeframe, unless all accesses are reads) interacts with spurious reads
16:27:01 <ais523> err, not spurious, I meant speculative
16:27:35 <Yayimheretoo> also, this just came to my head, isn't APL kinda a pidgin to some extent a bit mmaybe? like a programming pidgin.
16:27:47 <Yayimheretoo> well I guess its just
16:27:54 <ais523> the problem is, the obviously correct behavior is "if a speculative read happens while the memory is locked down by noalias, it reads some value but you can't actually make use of that value without causing undefined behavior" – LLVM calls this situation a poison value
16:27:56 <Yayimheretoo> a naturally developed language lol
16:28:25 <ais523> the problem is, the noalias lock only happens once the pointer with noalias on it actually accesses the memory, so whether the speculative read reads a normal value or poison depends on events that happen in the future
16:28:45 <ais523> this can totally lead to causality loops, I've been trying to argue that despite this it is nonetheless the correct implementation
16:29:18 <Yayimheretoo> just add time travel we'll figure it out /j
16:31:28 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: It might look like it, but APL was actually developed by a mathematician to communicate mathematical ideas on a blackboard to other mathematicians. If you want to do linguistic analysis, a better approach is to think of it as a constructed creole; APL is a conlang, like most proglangs.
16:31:42 <Yayimheretoo> oh
16:31:53 <Yayimheretoo> I must have mis understood your previous telling of the story
16:32:13 <Yayimheretoo> which I remembered as people notating to each other and slowly standardizing among each other
16:32:17 <ais523> korvo: I'm wondering how many accidentally created programming languages there are
16:32:27 <Yayimheretoo> reminds me I actually was inventing one in class
16:32:36 <ais523> programming language type systems sometimes are, but I think nowadays those are recognised as programming languages and intentionally created as such
16:32:53 <Yayimheretoo> a flowchart kinda languagge for solving for values n shit
16:33:05 <Yayimheretoo> I cant run, the languages will always catch me
16:33:18 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191340 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+9652) I'm not proud of it, but I guess this should be out here in case someone interested finds this project.
16:33:32 <ais523> there's that case a while back where someone figured out a Turing-complete-except-that-memory-is-bounded construction using the MMU, in which it would trigger a series of page faults as a consequence of other page faults forever and that could do computation
16:33:39 <korvo> ais523: I would think that the type of values would include a possibly-poison value, which is dynamic and residualized, as well as a definitely-poison value, which is static and results in DCE or compiler error. But that might be two-level type theory whispering at me.
16:33:54 <ais523> and the various card games that turned out to be Turing-complete
16:34:38 <ais523> korvo: I proposed basically that, although expressed more simply by using mathematical nondeterminism
16:34:51 <ais523> (i.e. you evaluate both possibilities and choose one that doesn't later lead to a contradiction)
16:35:08 <ais523> the problem is that a causality loop does not cause a contradiction, so you somehow have to ban those separately
16:35:10 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: Ah, sorry to mislead. The story is that one guy, Iverson, built up APL over a period of three years or so. Then he went to work at IBM, developed it for a couple more years, and published the book "A Programming Language", which is the first time APL got a name.
16:35:27 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: you did not mislead I mislead myself
16:35:35 <Yayimheretoo> I would love that as a project though
16:35:37 <korvo> Before that it was just Iverson's array notation that he used in his private notes. So not a pidgin exactly, since it wasn't really being negotiated by other people.
16:35:41 <Yayimheretoo> a lil experiment
16:35:58 <ais523> having seen quite a few APL derivatives, I've come to the conclusion that regardless of what symbols you use it won't be particularly readable
16:36:08 <Yayimheretoo> if anybody here would wanna participate it could be fun
16:36:16 <Yayimheretoo> ais523: i luv APL visually
16:36:48 <Yayimheretoo> like syntax highlighted APL, even if unreadable, looks amazing
16:37:11 <ais523> e.g. APL uses ⌽ for "reverse a list-like thing" but I find Brachylog's ↔ clearer
16:37:22 <ais523> (Brachylog isn't an APL derivative but it has some of the same primitives)
16:38:00 <Yayimheretoo> i funnily enough have a movie of my opinions on these things which ive been working on
16:38:04 <Yayimheretoo> on arbitrariness
16:38:19 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191341&oldid=191329 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+196) /* 2026 - mesmerizer */
16:38:29 <Yayimheretoo> I somehow see logic in ⌽ and it looks nicer I'd say
16:38:34 <Yayimheretoo> but again js me
16:38:59 <ais523> oh, this reminds me, a while ago I was working on an Underload derivative with more commands, but the commands were represented as little pictograms of their effects on the stack
16:39:06 <aadenboy> Yayimheretoo: syntax highlighted APL brings Uiua to mind, a beautiful proglang in that sense imo
16:39:27 <ais523> I should look into Uiua some time, I've seen it mentioned a lot but don't know much about it
16:40:09 <Yayimheretoo> aadenboy: yea
16:40:27 <Yayimheretoo> Something about Uiua angered me but I cannot remember what
16:40:28 <Yayimheretoo> lmao
16:40:51 <esolangs> [[Sm]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191342&oldid=56840 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+167) categorization
16:41:14 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/xml maybe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191343&oldid=191255 * Aadenboy * (+461) 
16:42:22 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/bondbondbondbondbond]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191344&oldid=164372 * Aadenboy * (-4) 
16:42:42 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191345&oldid=191324 * Miui * (+9) fix link to category:pseudonaturals page
16:42:45 <esolangs> [[Licorne]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191346&oldid=139751 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+97) more categorization
16:44:26 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191347&oldid=191335 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+195) /* ConstantLanguage() */ Oh wow, another constant language! Add Pi(e)
16:46:10 <esolangs> [[Laddermaker]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191348&oldid=136495 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+41) unknown computational class?
16:46:51 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191349&oldid=191310 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-3035) incomplete so I marked as WIP again my god this is a language a sheller of one
16:47:08 <Yayimheretoo> the website just lost its CSS while I was editing that looks cursed
16:47:34 <esolangs> [[Piko]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191350&oldid=97041 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+168) categorization
16:47:37 <Yayimheretoo> I love and hate this language, cuz again, it takes korvo's advice and is abstracted from smth real, but its weirdly hard to abstract from
16:48:25 <esolangs> [[OTS]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191351&oldid=176862 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+68) mark as unknown computational class and unimplemented
16:50:18 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191352&oldid=191349 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) 
16:51:06 <esolangs> [[Try/hello world]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191353&oldid=138291 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+23) categorize as examples
16:51:49 <Yayimheretoo> THATS what OTS was lmao
16:52:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/xml maybe]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191354&oldid=191343 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+129) 
17:03:57 <Yayimheretoo> gtg now cya'll it was fun seeing ais again, great discussion. before I go korvo would you wanna see the language I created? the one which really took your message of taking it from a real problem or thing to heart?
17:06:23 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191355&oldid=191347 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+740) /* QuineAvoiding() */ self-insert
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17:09:31 <esolangs> [[Bitty]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191356&oldid=168549 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+162) categorization + infobox
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17:09:57 <korvo> Yayimheretoo: I do want to see it, but I can't give you my attention right now. There's a neighborhood cat emergency.
17:10:20 <Yayimheretoo> korvo: makes sense, not fully documented anyways
17:10:31 <Yayimheretoo> hopefully the emmergency doesn't escalate toooo hard
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17:11:00 <esolangs> [[Deadgirlfriend]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191357&oldid=180573 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+49) categorize as pseudonatural and thematic
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17:40:08 <korvo> Cat is fine. Cat wants to live in neighbor's backyard, despite neighbor's protests. Will take cat to vet on Monday.
17:40:25 <korvo> It is, of course, not my cat.
17:41:09 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191358&oldid=191345 * Miui * (+94) /* add a works in progress section */
17:41:40 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191359&oldid=191358 * Miui * (+0) fix link
17:45:35 <esolangs> [[Function key + Page Up/Down]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191360 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+2725) another counter machine ^v^
17:46:28 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191361&oldid=191341 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+148) /* 2026 - mesmerizer */ add Function key + Page Up/Down
17:46:47 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191362&oldid=191361 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) /* my esolangs */ update count
17:48:34 <esolangs> [[Function key + Page Up/Down]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191363&oldid=191360 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+33) /* Invoke undefined behavior */
17:49:24 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191364&oldid=191362 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) /* my esolangs */ off by two
17:53:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191365&oldid=191338 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+534) what would happen if a new one appeared after a hypothetical merge
17:53:53 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191366&oldid=185659 * Miui * (+25) /* :P */
17:56:10 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191367&oldid=191364 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+288) /* my esolangs */ add the constant languages
18:10:42 <esolangs> [[Segmentation fault]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191368&oldid=164012 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+97) /* C */ Much shorter interpreter
18:16:28 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191369&oldid=191355 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1430) add more constant langages
18:18:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191370&oldid=191365 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+953) stupid question
18:19:02 <esolangs> [[FloppaML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191371 * Mrtli08 * (+1068) Created page with "FloppaML is... well, a markup language.  === Commands ===  ( and ) can be replaced with "( and "), # will be replaced with "#, ; is "; "" is ", { and } is "{ and "}  <code>hello;</code> writes "hello" onto the screen. <br> <code>(hello(x));</code> writes hello onto the
18:20:30 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191372 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+905) Created page with "'''Frog''' is a counter-based esolang created by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] without conditional instructions ==Specification== It has unbounded amount of possible counters storing nonnegative integers infinite in size, which names are alphanumeric st
18:20:51 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191373&oldid=191193 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+11) /* 2026 */
18:21:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Function key + Page Up/Down]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191374 * Mrtli08 * (+158) gzvbyh
18:22:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191375 * Mrtli08 * (+107) Created page with "got x86 vibes from this --~~~~"
18:42:59 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191376&oldid=191372 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+1) /* Specification */  fix typo
18:49:33 <APic> Good Night      😴
18:49:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Function key + Page Up/Down]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191377&oldid=191374 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+761) 
18:53:07 <esolangs> [[Function key + Page Up/Down]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191378&oldid=191363 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-4) /* Syntax */ fix mistake
18:53:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Function key + Page Up/Down]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191379&oldid=191377 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+542) /* Control + Page down and Control + Page Up do the same thing */
18:54:13 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191380&oldid=191376 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+46) cat
18:55:35 <esolangs> [[Function key + Page Up/Down]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191381&oldid=191378 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+8) /* Invoke undefined behavior */ emphasis
19:00:01 <esolangs> [[FloppaML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191382&oldid=191371 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+205) cat
19:01:20 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191383&oldid=191380 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+19) add missing cat
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19:02:17 <esolangs> [[FloppaML]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191384&oldid=191382 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) "Markup Languages" got renamed to "Markup languages"
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19:02:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191385&oldid=191370 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+271) 
19:06:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191386&oldid=191385 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+954) 
19:08:38 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191387&oldid=191366 * Ais523 * (-41) rv addition of two languages which, as far as I can tell from their articles, are nowhere near Turing-complete (indeed, one of the articles about the languages claims that all programs in the language are trivial quines, which would necessarily exclude it from t
19:08:57 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191388&oldid=191383 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+40) Forgot to add arguments
19:09:44 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191389&oldid=191386 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+680) What do we do about their implementations?
19:12:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191390&oldid=191389 * Ais523 * (+373) a table with short-format links
19:12:19 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191391&oldid=191369 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+74) anyone can add constant languages here
19:13:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191392&oldid=191059 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+377) /* Frog TC proof */ new section
19:15:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191393&oldid=191390 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+493) would the links point to an article here like "Constant language/Nope. implementations" or an external pastebin?
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19:16:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191394&oldid=191392 * Ais523 * (+616) /* Frog TC proof */ thoughts
19:19:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191395&oldid=191393 * Ais523 * (+485) normally external hosting is preferred, although the wiki is usable to some extent
19:20:29 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191396&oldid=191394 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+264) /* Frog TC proof */
19:22:10 <esolangs> [[Frog (ChuckEsoteric08)]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191397&oldid=191388 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+79) 
19:22:19 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191398&oldid=191359 * Miui * (+17) /* semi-serious */ not entirely sure i understand but nevertheless
19:23:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191399&oldid=191396 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+32) /* Frog TC proof */
19:28:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191400&oldid=191399 * Ais523 * (+1428) /* Frog TC proof */ this is TC, a sketch of what the proof would look like
19:45:13 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191401 * Miui * (+2608) Created page with "'''QuineAvoiding("", "")'''  is a quine-avoiding constant language QuineAvoiding("", ""), inspired by chinese characters. Its purpose is print "Chinese characters" in Chinese without allowing a quine.  ==Syntax== If the program is exactly "" (without the quot
19:53:35 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191402&oldid=191398 * Miui * (-8) bruh whotf said esolangs are easy im still salty abut that
19:57:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191403&oldid=191339 * Ractangle * (+216) 
20:11:48 <esolangs> [[Template:QACL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191404&oldid=190143 * Aadenboy * (+4) 
20:11:54 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191405&oldid=191401 * Aadenboy * (-5) 
20:14:41 <esolangs> [[Template talk:QACL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191406 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+607) Created page with "Would it be a good idea to have the quotes built into the template? Because there are some rare cases where, for example, we want <code>QuineAvoiding("1", Pi to 5 trillion decimal places)</code> to have the second part not be wrapped in quotes so i
20:15:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * Miui *  uploaded "[[File:.png]]"
20:15:48 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191408&oldid=191405 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+34) fix redlink
20:16:39 <esolangs> [[Template talk:QACL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191409&oldid=191406 * Aadenboy * (+285) 
20:17:06 <esolangs> [[Template talk:QACL]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191410&oldid=191409 * Aadenboy * (+154) 
20:18:12 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191411&oldid=191408 * Miui * (+153) Add logo and external resources
21:02:33 <esolangs> [[Usernames]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191412&oldid=191237 * Hammy * (+532) im back
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22:02:37 <zzo38> Are there .NET executables with a DOS stub that allows the program to work in DOS (e.g. by calling another program that implements .NET or including its own implementation)?
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22:27:54 <b_jonas> ais523: for the deadfish-like, I think you may be on to something with reversing the bits to manipulate a deque. you can multiply or divide the number with small non-power-of-two numbers (say 3) that's observable on both ends, add and subtract that's observable only just one end. but we need a bit more to allow universal control flow.
22:29:01 <ais523> zzo38: that's an amazing question, I don't know the answer, but I think Microsoft would be very unlikely to support such a configuration so it would depend on whether an enthusiast had decided to implement that sort of thing for fun
22:29:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I think "mathematical regex has two operators" is misleading. besides alternation and Kleene star, you need concatenation, empty string, single character, and possibly empty language.
22:29:51 <b_jonas> korvo: https://www.euclidthegame.com/ or are you thinking of some other one?
22:30:41 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you got the "five rules" thing wrong, Euclid stated five plus five rules, calling five of them axioms and five of them postulates. of course they're very spotty, the proofs using lots of hidden rules besides these.
22:30:59 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm… concatenation is an invisible operator but empty string and single character are operands, not operators
22:32:21 <b_jonas> I think the postulates are what we would now call axioms, while the axioms are the construction steps which are the operations in the language
22:32:25 <korvo> b_jonas: I think the app I have is https://www.euclidea.xyz/ but I'm not 100% sure.
22:32:29 <b_jonas> let me look up what they were exactly
22:32:41 <korvo> Haven't played it in a while. I'm pretty bad at compass-and-straightedge!
22:35:37 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe that's backwards and the axioms are our axioms
22:35:54 <b_jonas> also, drat, surely these were listed in one of my books which is how I knew about it, why can't I find it
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22:36:58 <MarkFan8901> we read up again
22:37:14 <MarkFan8901> we specifically got to the point which Yayimheretoo said "I mean siulating the thing your built upon probably is a little easier to an extent lol"
22:37:16 <korvo> AFAICT "axiom" and "postulate" are an example of Greek vs Latin sources. Same word, different source languages.
22:37:23 <MarkFan8901> ah wait sry
22:37:47 <MarkFan8901> is it ok if we continue
22:38:02 <korvo> ...But Euclid predates the Hellenistic era, right? So I wonder why translators of Elements use "postulate".
22:38:17 <korvo> MarkFan8901: Go for it! Concomitant chat is allowed here.
22:38:17 <b_jonas> ok, I found them and I'm completely wrong about this
22:38:24 <MarkFan8901> oki oki
22:38:30 <b_jonas> there's just one set of 5, the postulates and axioms are the same
22:38:58 <MarkFan8901> for future reference that quote is about quantum computers being able to simulate quantum physics with only a polynomial slowdown
22:39:12 <b_jonas> so Euclid's postulates/axioms are (1) through any two points you can construct a line (segment), (2) line segment can be extended arbitrarily on both ends to get a line, (3) for any center point and length you can construct a circle with the distance as radius, (4) all right angles are equal, (5) and the complicated fifth one that distinguishes Euclidean from hyperbolic geometry
22:39:17 <MarkFan8901> in contrast with typical computers, which have an exponential slowdown simulating classical physics
22:39:22 <b_jonas> sorry
22:40:05 <MarkFan8901> which made us think of a really funny system of computation which was also based on classical physics
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22:40:50 <MarkFan8901> and you could pass through physical simulations to the computer to run natively
22:41:25 <MarkFan8901> we forgot the specific term but we're thinking like how you can interpret lisp code in lisp by just passing it through to the base interpreter
22:41:30 <MarkFan8901> instead of having to make one yourself
22:42:23 <MarkFan8901> mfw i simulate a nuclear bomb on my computer that works via pass-through interpretation:
22:43:36 <MarkFan8901> oh also about the discussion on racism
22:43:48 <MarkFan8901> you dont have to connect it to any actual physical violence for it to still be racist
22:44:43 <MarkFan8901> and it doesnt have to be malicious for it to still be bad and worthy of deletion
22:45:21 <MarkFan8901> we think thatd not only be much more healthier to enforce, itd also be easier
22:46:56 <MarkFan8901> just assume that deleting a page for racism would knock some sense into someone about what they did, and if it doesnt and they keep doing it/try to defend it then they can get the hammer
22:47:18 <MarkFan8901> we did think of a small caveat though
22:47:53 <korvo> b_jonas: Right. BTW (5) is actually pretty simple in modern language: two lines, both perpindicular to some third line, never have a point in common. This doesn't help reading Elements but does help with understanding e.g. spherical geometry, where such lines have exactly two points in common IIRC.
22:47:56 <MarkFan8901> like if someone makes an esolang mocking i.e. chilean culture, and the page gets deleted, but they reveal that they are chilean themselves
22:48:47 <MarkFan8901> we'd say that the page should be undeleted in that case cuz that information completely changes the intent of the page
22:49:40 <MarkFan8901> ofc there could be other people who might not know that who look at the page and think its acceptable behavior to just mock other cultures like that, and make pages accordingly
22:49:40 <ais523> korvo: it's exactly one in elliptical geometry; spherical geometry doesn't obey all the first for postulates because it allows two lines to intersect at two points
22:49:54 <ais523> * first four postulates
22:49:58 <korvo> MarkFan8901: Yeah, we try to allow for jokes, including culture-specific stuff. I think that a lot of the translated-Chinese pages are in this situation, for example; some of them were just straight-up translation-party junk (and did get deleted!) but some of them are Chinese folks reacting to English in a way that we aren't entitled to fully understand.
22:50:00 <MarkFan8901> but again we think the 'knock some sense into them' principle should apply when that happens
22:50:50 <korvo> ais523: Ah, that was it. The number of intersections of parallel lines is what classifies them, otherwise? Or maybe that's too limiting of a POV.
22:50:52 <MarkFan8901> korvo: yea we think just a general basis of understanding would be the best way to approach it
22:51:06 <MarkFan8901> ofc following page deletions
22:52:01 <ais523> korvo: so in elliptical geometry, parallel lines don't exist (constructions which in Euclidean geometry would give parallel lines nonetheless create crossing lines in elliptical geometry)
22:52:35 <MarkFan8901> like some air of vulnerability in your decisions, but also like
22:52:41 <ais523> whereas in hyperbolic geometry, parallelness is not transitive (two lines can be non-parallel to another but both parallel to a third) and is not predicted by crossing angles
22:52:50 <MarkFan8901> surely ganglang wasnt made by a black person
22:52:58 <MarkFan8901> or anyone with gang history
22:53:17 <MarkFan8901> ditto for eselang
22:53:18 <ais523> although I think two lines that are both at right angles to a third line might necessarily be parallel to each other
22:53:22 <b_jonas> korvo: that can't be right, doesn't the fifth Euclidean postulate supposed to distinguish euclidean from hyperbolic space?
22:54:00 <MarkFan8901> hopefully what we've said is good enough and also formal enough for a policy
22:54:06 <ais523> one of the main challenges of navigating hyperbolic space (which I used to do quite a lot while playing computer games) is that directions aren't really definable there
22:54:10 <korvo> ais523: Ah, so in hyperbolic geometry, there's no nice way to reuse Euclid's phrasing with exactly one negation added/removed? So far today I've avoided actually opening the book but I might have to now.
22:54:13 <MarkFan8901> just delete racist pages, if the person who made it keeps being racist ban them
22:54:41 <ais523> MarkFan8901: the problem is more that it's hard to tell whether or not the page is racist without a lot of context
22:54:54 <MarkFan8901> yeah
22:55:17 <b_jonas> so now I'll have to think a bit about whether we can make an infinite looping instructions style language with just a deque and instruction pointer and not much more state that's TC and is simpler than what I suggested with a single tape
22:55:22 <MarkFan8901> our thought process is you first delete the page, then ask to make sure that you aren't missing any context
22:55:24 <ais523> and there is the opposite problem of "all gang members are racists" probably not being a true statement, so you end up having to make a ruling on word association and hte like
22:55:36 <MarkFan8901> maybe there's something less severe then page deletion which would allow for this kind of dynamic better
22:55:57 <korvo> b_jonas, ais523: Ah, I've gone and looked it up. Very funny how I was precisely backwards. (5) says that if two lines *aren't* parallel, because a perp between them has an angle defect, then they intersect on the side of the defect.
22:56:05 <b_jonas> I do prefer two queues over a tape if you have arbitrary control flow, and a deque can simulate two queues, but the reduced control flow makes this harder
22:56:28 <MarkFan8901> like we're thinking the crux of this kind of decision would be talking to the person who made it to see their intentions
22:56:39 <ais523> korvo: hmm, isn't that also true in elliptical geometry? has to be an if and only if
22:56:40 <korvo> And hyperbolic geometry does have a clean negation of that: if two lines aren't parallel, then they *don't* necessarily intersect on the side of the defect.
22:56:41 <MarkFan8901> cuz it should be obvious if someone really just is that racist
22:56:53 <MarkFan8901> or if they were just dumb and didnt think of what theyre doing
22:57:08 <MarkFan8901> or if, again, they actually have the right to do what they did
22:57:18 <ais523> MarkFan8901: have you read the page in question?
22:57:26 <MarkFan8901> eselang?
22:57:32 <MarkFan8901> yea we were the first ones to bring it up
22:57:55 <MarkFan8901> the discussion was spawned cuz we pointed out how racist it was
22:58:29 <MarkFan8901> ack unrelated our eyes are doing a very weird thing rn (we're on the libera.chat client)
22:58:33 <korvo> ais523: I'm not sure. For spherical geometry, it has to be changed in another way: they intersect on both sides, including the side with the angle surplus. And it sounds like elliptic geometry is another generalization: they intersect on one side, but it could be either side.
22:58:41 <MarkFan8901> whenver we look at a line, it looks like all the lower lines are greyed out
22:58:58 <MarkFan8901> which makes us look at them cuz we think the message is still loading
22:59:01 <ais523> korvo: elliptic geometry loops
22:59:03 <ais523> there isn't a side
22:59:04 <MarkFan8901> etc until we each the bottom of the page
22:59:48 <ais523> I can see, e.g., a rule banning pages that celebrate or reference gang culture, which I think would be easier to apply in this situation
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23:00:08 <MarkFan8901> having it exclude gang culture specifically seems way too specific
23:00:23 <MarkFan8901> and would also not really be effective against future cases of racism
23:00:42 <ais523> MarkFan8901: the problem is that it's hard for someone who doesn't know the culture in question to determine whether the article is racist or not
23:00:56 <MarkFan8901> we'd just go by the sniff test
23:01:00 <MarkFan8901> and if we're wrong, we learn
23:01:00 <ais523> like, is this a reference specifically to racist gangs, as opposed to non-racist gangs?
23:01:09 <ais523> or is it referencing gangs in a way that is racist towards the gangs?
23:01:20 <MarkFan8901> the last thing
23:01:42 <MarkFan8901> cuz the punchline of the page(s) is that its gang talk
23:01:51 <MarkFan8901> that is quite literally the definition of making fun of gang culture
23:02:07 <MarkFan8901> like ok
23:02:43 <MarkFan8901> what we've been saying about checking with the person who wrote it to ask about their intent is for future cases of racism
23:03:00 <MarkFan8901> but for this specific instance we're uh
23:03:14 <MarkFan8901> Pretty sure the person who wrote it doesnt know shit about gangs
23:03:37 <ais523> I would be surprised if it were intended as racism (basically because I'd be surprised if anything written by Miui properly reflected Miui's intentions)
23:03:44 <MarkFan8901> yes
23:04:10 <MarkFan8901> this page firmly falls into the 'theyre being dumb and arent aware of why what theyre doing is racist'
23:04:22 <MarkFan8901> which is why we think a delete would knock some sense into them
23:04:37 <korvo> The page was created by Wonkanese, for what it's worth.
23:04:41 <MarkFan8901> o
23:05:04 <MarkFan8901> we remember getting it from a miui edit
23:05:10 <MarkFan8901> thanks for the context
23:05:38 <korvo> I think that both of them should be warned. Also SDGL4RNG, who created Satans Disciples GangLang $.
23:05:48 <MarkFan8901> yes
23:06:11 <ais523> this is the sort of situation where I would be happy for one of the other admins to delete it without further discussion but don't feel qualified to make the decision myself
23:06:24 <MarkFan8901> we think its very much qualified
23:06:29 <MarkFan8901> 'dont be racist' is a pretty basic rule
23:06:49 <MarkFan8901> aswell as just 'dont be bigoted' in general
23:07:01 <MarkFan8901> considering we have some queer folk in here too (yayimhere and us)
23:07:15 <korvo> I think that it might be hard to perceive why it's clearly racist from outside the USA. I think it's easy to watch Hollywood media and believe the copaganda.
23:07:30 <MarkFan8901> we didnt think of that actually
23:07:35 <ais523> I agree with "don't be racist" but it's hard for someone who doesn't know the culture in question to determine what is and isn't racist
23:07:41 <korvo> Basically, there's statistically no such thing as gangs. Or, rather, the correct name for "gang" over here is "sherriff's department".
23:08:21 <MarkFan8901> ais523: we get the sense they dont know it either
23:08:36 <MarkFan8901> they just compiled a bunch of gang-sounding words into a page for a punchline
23:08:38 <ais523> over here gangs come in a variety of races, some of the gangs are racist, some of them aren't
23:08:53 <MarkFan8901> oya what country are u in btw
23:08:55 <MarkFan8901> we're american
23:08:58 <korvo> The 1980s portrayal of Mexicans and African-Americans as violent inner-city gang-banging pimps and thugs was (and yes I know how unhinged this sounds) the result of a long-running psyop, jointly between the CIA and the White House, which pushed drugs like crack and marijuana onto redlined populations.
23:09:12 <MarkFan8901> wait wtf
23:09:14 <ais523> there were historically major issues with gangs that identified themselves with particular soccer teams (often without those teams' consent) and would fight gangs that supported other soccer teams
23:09:27 <MarkFan8901> we knew about the crack thing but
23:09:36 <MarkFan8901> the portrayals were also a part of the psyop?
23:10:06 <korvo> When left to their own devices, Mexican-American neighborhoods have taquerias and African-American neighborhoods close part of the streets for walkability. Also, due to not trusting psyops, they e.g. have worse tree cover and less access to e.g. Internet.
23:10:45 <MarkFan8901> we're gonna be honest we dont know our shit on this as much as we should
23:11:07 <MarkFan8901> we dont think we really have to get into the specifics of different cultures to say eselang is racist though
23:11:19 <b_jonas> ais523: on the B-tree in Rust, what kind of statements would you like to state to the optimizer that you can't currently do? at first I was thinking of some nodes that you access being distinct, but Rust can already express that pretty well with mut references.
23:11:24 <MarkFan8901> we think the main problem right now is ais not feeling comfortable with just deleting the page
23:11:33 <korvo> MarkFan8901: Largely. There have been large organized-crime syndicates, and they have had ethnic components (famously The Combination, also Cosa Nostra), but the reason that people e.g. heard about Tupac's life, threats, and death is because it was a dramatic opportunity for cashing in by retelling the story and reselling the now-martyred music.
23:11:57 <MarkFan8901> huh
23:12:06 <MarkFan8901> wasnt gangster hip hop already popular before that
23:12:09 <ais523> b_jonas: it's mostly that but you can't mix mut references with backreferences
23:12:23 <MarkFan8901> like biggie was big even before he died right
23:12:28 <MarkFan8901> (for example)
23:12:42 <korvo> Incidentally, Cosa Nostra's part of why Hollywood got to be the way it is. Too many executives are made men, e.g. Irving Azoff. You wanna look at a gangster, look up Phil Spector!
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23:13:21 <ais523> fwiw I don't trust korvo (or indeed most other people) to be 100% accurate on this sort of thing
23:13:30 <MarkFan8901> yes
23:13:40 <MarkFan8901> though you kinda have to accept you won't always be accurate when dealing with racism
23:13:42 <ais523> but I don't know enough about it myself to tell how much is right or wrong
23:13:51 <MarkFan8901> same
23:14:14 <MarkFan8901> like we feel like you kinda have to make mistakes to learn why theyre mistakes
23:14:38 <MarkFan8901> especially with something like racism, which is a social thing
23:14:57 <korvo> ais523: Fair, but also I live in a multicultural neighborhood and live with folks who suffer daily from racism. My neighbors get pulled over for e.g. driving while black, walking while black, wearing hoodies while black, speaking Spanish, looking Mexican...
23:15:44 <ais523> korvo: oh, racism is definitely still a major problem – the problem is more that it can require a lot of context to determine whether a particular action is racist or not
23:15:45 <MarkFan8901> yea and we'd say we are at least a little more aware of racism than other ppl
23:15:50 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean you want nodes to store both forward references and backreferences in the nodes in their undisturbed state? and maybe when you traverse you want to be able to assert that the back and forward references are consistent? I don't really see what you can't do by storing only raw pointers in the nodes, and temporarily owning reference the nodes as you touch them
23:16:02 <korvo> MarkFan8901: Yeah, hip hop was popular. But also, the entirety of Billboard has been what we call "payola" or "pay for play" ever since the end of WW2. It's always been steered by a fairly small group of highly opinionated executives, most of whom are not musicians.
23:16:16 <ais523> b_jonas: you can't traverse a backrefefence while the forward reference is mutably borrowed
23:16:17 <MarkFan8901> good point
23:16:22 <ais523> otherwise you're breaking the aliasing rules
23:16:47 <MarkFan8901> though yea korvo we think we should be talking about ais here
23:16:59 <MarkFan8901> maybe there needs to be more admins
23:17:26 <ais523> but also there is a potential use-after-free: if I start at a leaf, and traverse the backreference to the branch, I can then replace the leaf because the branch owns it, and then I have a usable reference to the leaf even though it's now free
23:17:41 <ais523> * ussable reference to the original leaf even though it's since been freed
23:18:01 <ais523> there needs to be more people making decisions, at least
23:18:11 <MarkFan8901> yea
23:18:21 <ais523> actually performing the admin actions is not difficult, working out when it's correct to perform an admin action is much harder
23:18:53 <MarkFan8901> Coud we be admine please :pleading:
23:18:57 <MarkFan8901> actually we're not sure about that
23:19:05 <MarkFan8901> we're not active enough to be one we think
23:19:15 <MarkFan8901> also like we've only been chatting here for like
23:19:17 <MarkFan8901> what
23:19:20 <MarkFan8901> 2 days?
23:19:36 <MarkFan8901> yall barely know us
23:19:42 <MarkFan8901> also we still dont even have an account
23:19:49 <korvo> MarkFan8901: I mean, I have no problem being the bad guy. I can leave something on their talk pages like "Hi! We discussed [pages] in IRC. We're concerned that, while these pages are not overtly bigoted, they may spread harmful stereotypes which encourage racist behaviors. As such, we're likely to either heavily revise or delete these pages."
23:19:59 <MarkFan8901> ?
23:20:03 <MarkFan8901> why is that being the bad guy
23:20:21 <ais523> it might be worth starting by writing on the discussion page of the pages in question
23:20:33 <korvo> "We are interested in any feedback that you might have, particularly around your intentions when creating [page] as well as how you think we should approach this topic in the future. Thanks!"
23:20:46 <MarkFan8901> oh something we haven't clarified yet
23:20:56 <ais523> saying something along the lines of "this page might be unintentionally racist" together with explanations of the context
23:21:04 <MarkFan8901> ^
23:21:05 <korvo> MarkFan8901: Because when telling taggers that they aren't allowed to leave graffiti, the response is rarely a polite agreement to go do something else.
23:21:29 <ais523> that's normally how we do deletion discussions (on the talk page of the pages in question)
23:21:29 <MarkFan8901> well this is different than that
23:21:38 <MarkFan8901> we assume miui is just some random kid
23:21:38 <ais523> people sometimes pick them up in recent changes, and sometimes don't
23:21:47 <MarkFan8901> and theres an equal chance that they actually would respond politely
23:21:56 <MarkFan8901> ais523: good info
23:22:31 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: taggers typically know why theyre doing what they do
23:22:33 <MarkFan8901> in contrast
23:22:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191413&oldid=191403 * I am islptng * (+281) 
23:22:42 <korvo> ais523: Okay, that's a fair plan. Shall I?
23:23:04 <ais523> korvo: I don't think you need my permission, although I do think it's a good recommendation
23:23:13 <MarkFan8901> ye
23:23:15 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Stratification]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191414 * Miui * (+8386) cheating on my homework
23:23:29 <MarkFan8901> also korvo
23:23:44 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191415&oldid=191402 * Miui * (+31) /* miscellany */
23:23:44 <MarkFan8901> we should probably reiterate, it doesnt *need* to promote violent behavior for it to be bad
23:24:07 <MarkFan8901> the premise is just mean spirited and we think that makes it unsavory enough for deletion
23:25:01 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Collapsing Building]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191416&oldid=168789 * Aadenboy * (+24) minor context
23:25:04 <MarkFan8901> actually we forgot if we already said that or not
23:25:07 <MarkFan8901> it might not be a reiteration
23:25:08 <MarkFan8901> sry ;w;
23:25:33 <korvo> MarkFan8901: I agree! FWIW I use a very expansive definition of racism; a belief is racist if it's entailed from the belief that there's more than one human race. I'm something of an anti-chauvinist, though, and I know that most folks care about racist actions instead.
23:26:07 <MarkFan8901> yea
23:26:33 <MarkFan8901> what we're saying is that what they did is also a racist action and doesnt need the "it can lead to worse" reasoning
23:27:04 <MarkFan8901> like you dont need to connect it to more obvious acts of racism to call it bad
23:27:27 <ais523> hmm, that user subpage that Miui just posted – I don't think it's a traditional copyright violation but it may well be LLM-generated
23:27:41 <MarkFan8901> oh thats bad
23:27:57 <ais523> korvo: I hope you don't try to generalise that definition to sexism :-D
23:28:05 <korvo> It's definitely generated. At least they self-tagged it. I don't think that they understand that, under the topicality proposal, this sort of page is completely unacceptable.
23:28:22 <korvo> ais523: Sexism is anything entailed from the belief that there are only two gender scripts.
23:29:10 <ais523> huh, an opposite definition, although there's a clear parallel
23:29:10 <korvo> Hilariously, not limited to human gender scripts; people are sexist about animals, plants, inanimate objects.
23:29:46 <MarkFan8901> yea sexism is similarly stating some inherent irreconcileable split between groups of people
23:30:09 <MarkFan8901> and secondary/tertiary things can intuitively be implied to be parts of 'different' groups
23:30:42 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191417&oldid=191215 * Aadenboy * (-31) /* my own esolangs */ revising tags
23:30:47 <MarkFan8901> the concept of irreconcileable differences is actually just our broader definition of bigotry
23:30:50 <korvo> ais523: Both racism and sexism think that the clade of humans has some extremely fine structure to it. It does have some temporal structure, but mostly it has the structure of a clade, and to be crude, the definition of a clade is the double-negation that one cannot copulate their way out of a clade.
23:31:08 <MarkFan8901> its useful cuz you can also apply it to non-structural things
23:31:45 <korvo> MarkFan8901: This reminds me of an essay I haven't finished writing. I define a first-order bigot as somebody who classifies humanity into classes, a second-order bigot as somebody who can recognize first-order bigotry and thus classify first-order bigots, ...
23:32:01 <MarkFan8901> wtf
23:32:03 <MarkFan8901> formalizing bigotry
23:32:11 <MarkFan8901> bigot set theory
23:32:12 <ais523> korvo: I think your definition of racism has false negatives (e.g. at some points in history, parts of the US imposed literacy requirements for voting, this had racist motivations despite not clearly being directly connected to the existence of multiple races)
23:32:15 <MarkFan8901> new esolang based on bigory
23:32:50 <MarkFan8901> ais523: agree
23:33:39 <MarkFan8901> "literacy requirements" specifically meant "you have to pass a literacy test before voting" which meant you had to be educated to vote
23:34:03 <korvo> ais523: "literacy" tests did not test literacy, FWIW. I think that if you were to look at such a test, you might start to consider that they were designed to be impossible to pass.
23:34:06 <MarkFan8901> which meant freed slaves typically couldnt cuz they didnt have access to education
23:34:16 <MarkFan8901> yea and also what korvo said
23:34:33 <korvo> To allow white voting, people could be "grandfathered" into the voter roll: if your grandfather could vote then you could vote too.
23:34:59 <MarkFan8901> if you actually look at some of those tests they have questions which had two valid answers
23:35:07 <MarkFan8901> but also they had a rule saying you could only put one
23:35:09 <korvo> It's really hard to deny that this was structurally racist when taken in toto. I agree that it doesn't *look* racist, but also that's like the MO of racists for centuries.
23:35:16 <MarkFan8901> so if a black person put one they could say 'wrong it was the other one'
23:36:11 <ais523> I'm actually mildly amazed that they came up with a scheme that was that easy to prove malicious, when a more deniable scheme would likely have been sufficiently effective
23:36:43 <MarkFan8901> well this is just what america is like
23:36:43 <korvo> Another example of this is "Jewish problems", which are math problems on Russian exams that were designed to exclude Jews from higher education. On the surface, of course Jews were allowed in Russian university! But under the hood, structurally racist.
23:36:49 <MarkFan8901> pretending their obvious racism is actually progressive
23:38:12 <MarkFan8901> uh anyways could we go back to talking abt the esolang wiki
23:38:26 <MarkFan8901> specifically miuis stuff and also the lack of ppl moderating the wiki
23:38:30 <MarkFan8901> brb we're gonna go to the bathroom
23:41:11 <MarkFan8901> back
23:42:41 <MarkFan8901> uh yeah maybe we should think about getting some more people who can admin the wiki actively
23:42:45 <MarkFan8901> along with ais
23:43:00 <ais523> we need more people who can decision-make, at least
23:43:07 <MarkFan8901> yes thats what we mean
23:43:23 <MarkFan8901> we dont consider the other ppl with admin roles actual admins cuz they dont do anything
23:43:28 <MarkFan8901> they have have the admin roles
23:43:33 <MarkFan8901> they just* have have the admin roles
23:43:51 <ais523> one of them turned up after a few years of admin-inactivity and deleted an unapproved category, then disappeared again
23:43:52 <MarkFan8901> they just* have have* have have the admin roles
23:43:56 <MarkFan8901> damn
23:44:10 <MarkFan8901> they they* just* have have* have have the admin roles
23:44:36 <MarkFan8901> fungot: thoughts?
23:44:37 <fungot> MarkFan8901: how about sisc?) if i'm not mistaken, sarahbot randomly selects one of the people that can fnord paper ( although i think it's the same
23:45:14 <MarkFan8901> ais523: can yall find ppl who can fnord paper
23:47:43 <korvo> Adding more decision-makers to a delayed decision isn't going to deliver it faster. It's literally Brooks' law.
23:48:22 <MarkFan8901> we'd hope we could find an admin who wouldnt hesitate to delete shit like ganglang
23:48:50 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Stratification]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191418&oldid=191414 * Miui * (+3426) add some stuff (Blake, I. F. and Kolesnikov, V. (2004). "Strong Conditional Oblivious Transfer and Computing on Intervals". In P. J. Lee (ed.), Advances in Cryptology  ASIACRYPT 2004, LNCS 3329, pp. 515529. Springer-Verlag.)
23:49:50 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Stratification]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191419&oldid=191418 * Miui * (+156) /* See also */ add link to GT SCOT paper
23:50:06 <ais523> korvo: this made me realise there's an obvious counterexample to brooks' law (the case where the project is late and currently has 0 developers)
23:50:25 <MarkFan8901> yea like
23:50:31 <MarkFan8901> brooks law fails ALL the time
23:51:04 <ais523> I guess it might not be that obvious because I hadn't noticed it at all (but it's obviously a counterexample once one becomes aware of the possibility)
23:51:18 <b_jonas> has any of you happened to have figured out how Digi-comp 1 works? I've been looking at the manual but I find it kind of boring and written in a style that's hard to understand. I'm pretty sure it's not very interesting as a computational model, because it has no indirect addressing of any sort, the code can only access specific bits at constant address of the memory. But I'd still like to know the 
23:51:23 <MarkFan8901> yea its only after you notice it
23:51:25 <korvo> Brooks' Law is a specialization of Conway's Law. It's tighter than you'd think. For example, if there's zero developers, then there's no system whatsoever, because otherwise some subsystem would be mapped to no developer whatsoever.
23:51:25 <b_jonas> details of what exactly it can do with those bits, to figure out from the rules how powerful it is. And it's historically interesting just because it's so old.
23:52:20 <MarkFan8901> korvo: what are the assumptions underlying this 'law'
23:52:47 <ais523> korvo: what if there are currently zero developers, but were more in the past?
23:53:04 <korvo> b_jonas: From what I saw in the video, it looked like there's six actions, which are maybe setting each register to 0/1 respectively? And it also looked like the actions could be triggered by each register being 0 or 1. The video's suggestion that it can represent some non-constant loops seemed reasonable.
23:53:09 <ais523> (some context: I strongly disagree with korvo's beliefs about what Conway's Law says)
23:53:36 <korvo> MarkFan8901: That the system has human authors.
23:54:09 -!- MarkFan8901 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
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23:54:18 <MarkFan9801> ack
23:54:24 <MarkFan9801> our computer froze up
23:54:24 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Stratification]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191420&oldid=191419 * Miui * (+79) add warning not to use this
23:55:38 <MarkFan9801> ok we read up
23:56:07 <MarkFan9801> korvo: we mean like the nature of what 'systems' and 'actions' are
23:56:20 <b_jonas> I think each iteration computes some kind of binary function on its state bits and that function is programmable but has very few levels of depth, but I'd like to know what kind of expressions they are. korvo: the manual just doesn't seem to match what I gathered from the video, and the video was vague. In particular the manual tells that the program consists of both "logic rods" and "clock rods", which 
23:56:26 <b_jonas> are two kinds of plastic tubes, one placed on the front side of the machine and one on the back side, while from the video it seemed like there was only one kind
23:56:28 <MarkFan9801> and like if theres the assumption that humans will always do what they need to
23:56:48 <MarkFan9801> and if they always need to discuss things before making any decision
23:57:46 <MarkFan9801> cuz our logic is that if ais doesnt feel comfortable deleting the page, and wants to be able to hand it off to someone who does, then there should be a person like that
23:57:59 <MarkFan9801> aka another admin/decision-maker
23:58:00 <korvo> b_jonas: Maybe the one kind of tube has two functions, depending on which side it was plugged into? I'm gonna have to rewatch it.
23:58:00 <ais523> I consider Conway's Law to be primarily an analog statement: there is a correlation between how closely the authors of two parts of a program cooperated when writing them, and how tightly coupled together those parts of the program are
23:58:39 <ais523> MarkFan9801: think of it this way: at wikis, it is very rare for an admin to delete a page without a proper discussion unless it unambiguously breaks the rules
23:58:55 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191421&oldid=191415 * I am islptng * (-845) You're not allowed to use my work lol. I hate you.
23:59:16 <MarkFan9801> woa jeez wait
23:59:27 <ais523> "don't be racist" is a rule that I am comfortable with implying into the current rules (even though it isn't explicitly listed), but it can be very hard to determine whether or not a given page is actually racist, and thus it needs a discussion to establish that
23:59:28 <MarkFan9801> even isltpng is hating on miui
23:59:46 <MarkFan9801> ais523: ah