00:00:06 <MarkFan9801> we knew the first part, though we're only just now catching on to the discussion part
00:00:08 <korvo> ais523: So, the full answer is actually in the first part of that big ramble about power relations. Just that part: let the spacetime events of interest (like now and the past) be nodes in a partial order, and annotate each event with the authors of the system at the time of each event. Then Conway's Law says that everything commutes.
00:00:27 <korvo> In your example, we get triangles that relate the current system, the past system, and the past authors.
00:01:36 <b_jonas> korvo: I think it's two different kinds of tubes with different thickness, but that's not really important. I currently suspect that one of the rods test registers and possibly aggregate tests into a temporary condition that doesn't survive the clock cycle, then the other kind of rods set or clear the persistent variables if one of those temporary conditions is true, and the persistent variables behave
00:01:42 <b_jonas> like flip-flops that keep their state when not touched
00:01:55 <ais523> I am not convinced that it's possible to apply category theory to human interactions and get reliable results – it's a very general theory but it isn't *that* general
00:01:57 <b_jonas> but this still isn't a full enough spec, I want to know what the tests can do
00:02:39 <MarkFan9801> we're not convinced outside logic can really do this either
00:03:04 <MarkFan9801> cuz we fundamentally dont believe in attempts to try and 'extract' human behavior
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00:03:16 <ais523> also I think the Conway's Law correlation goes both ways (e.g. if you have a program that can reasonably be implemented using two parts that are very loosely coupled, and have two developers who can work on it, it makes a lot of sense to assign one developer to each part to save on context-switching overhead)
00:03:18 <korvo> ais523: Then you'd hate some side research I'm doing, where I'm trying to understand a particular military truism: the deployed military always carries with it a structure of humans which mirrors the society that is paying for it. This is an extremely Conway-coded observation IMO.
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00:04:47 <MarkFan9801> how the hell do you keep track of whose 'paying' for the military
00:04:51 <ais523> korvo: I don't think that's explainable by communication restrictions, though
00:05:09 <MarkFan9801> enough to say that they *always* mirror each other
00:05:53 <MarkFan9801> our most charitable interpretation of this is that both groups are people who otherwise support the military
00:06:08 <MarkFan9801> and obviously ppl who are on the ground battling are a part of that group
00:06:23 <korvo> MarkFan9801: They tend to wear their logos on their sleeves like racecar drivers. Anyway, this isn't about today's military, although e.g. it's interesting how McDonald's and Amazon are available at USA military bases abroad. It's more like how merchants and cooks walked alongside ancient armies.
00:06:56 <korvo> ais523: Right. Instead, the mediating forces between humans are bundles of responsibilities: who does what, who is accountable for what, who authors what, etc.
00:07:35 <ais523> korvo: cooks being alongside armies is not a reflection of society, rather it's a consequence of armies needing food to operate correctly
00:07:43 <esolangs> [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191422&oldid=188014 * B jonas * (-400) /* Todo */ Digi-comp 1
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00:08:09 <ais523> I guess you can argue that if a society has discovered that having separate cooks is more efficient than everyone doing its own cooking, they are likely to reflect that in their military
00:08:12 <korvo> ais523: Sure. Similarly, cooks being alongside e.g. construction workers is not a reflection of society?
00:08:24 <ais523> but in fact, I think militaries are more likely to have dedicated cooks than the general population is
00:09:30 <ais523> I would suspect there to be plenty of societies where it's usual for families to prepare their own food, but for militaries to have specific people who are dedicated to food production and handle almost all of it
00:09:52 <korvo> Militaries where people are used to cooking for themselves tend to have foraging instead; everybody gets a small amount of standard grain and salt, but the rest has to be pillaged or gathered or self-provided. Maybe purchased from merchants. Other militaries had dedicated cooks and food sources. There's a big tradeoff in range and agility, since militaries can't operate without supply lines of some sort.
00:10:40 <ais523> korvo: I don't agree with that, plenty of modern-day societies have people who are used to cooking for themselves, hardly any modern-day militaries forage outside emergency situations
00:11:53 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Zerons]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191423&oldid=169812 * Aadenboy * (+0) /* Generalizations */ that's not right...
00:12:18 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191424&oldid=191253 * I am islptng * (+106)
00:13:03 <korvo> Sure. "modern" is a funny word here; military science has the idea of the "Modern System", where individual militants are empowered to make low-level tactical decisions without full instructions from the top. The communication structure itself has become more flexible over time.
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01:12:55 <HackEso> Royal Dahl is the king of Norway.
01:12:58 <b_jonas> ^ do we have to edit this entry now?
01:16:40 <aadenboy> holy shit it's the end of august already? I could've sworn there was a week remaining
01:17:40 <b_jonas> aadenboy: no, there's almost two whole more days, it's one of the long months
01:18:17 <aadenboy> 29th is close enough to the end for me
01:39:44 <esolangs> [[Usernames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191425&oldid=191412 * Miui * (-341) /* Pi (approximation) */ that weirdo is gonna break this program so I removed it so he can save his breath
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01:55:12 <esolangs> [[Kia SorrentoLX with no power-steering evading police in reverse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191426&oldid=183470 * Miui * (+8) Tag W.I.P.
01:55:45 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191427&oldid=191421 * Miui * (+69) /* Works in progress */ add Kia SorrentoLX with no power-steering evading police in reverse
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02:13:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191428&oldid=191413 * PrySigneToFry * (+554)
02:14:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191429&oldid=191428 * PrySigneToFry * (+74) Oops, I forgot to sign!
02:17:23 <esolangs> [[Alexandrion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191430&oldid=187161 * Miui * (-73) /* See also */ avoiding more vandalism from ipsltng or however you spell it
02:18:55 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191431&oldid=191427 * Miui * (+18) /* esolangs */ added Color Dialog to the list of my esolangs
02:25:31 <esolangs> [[9 trits, 19683 trytes]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191432&oldid=186618 * Miui * (-63) preventing further interactions from a self-proclaimed "hater" of mine
02:27:44 <esolangs> [[Jesus!Alive!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191433&oldid=187764 * Miui * (-131) /* See also */ preventing further interactions from a self-proclaimed "hater" of mine
02:28:46 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191434 * Cordership * (+290) Created page with "Alberqueque challenge extended is an extended version of [[Alberqueque challenge]] by [[User:Cordership]]. Every time a character loops, it loops back to its first use, like this: <pre> Hello, World! | v Helllo, World!o, Wo, World!rllo, World!ll
02:29:09 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191435&oldid=191434 * Cordership * (-1)
02:29:25 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191436&oldid=191435 * Cordership * (+0)
02:30:00 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191437&oldid=191436 * Cordership * (+1)
02:31:54 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191438&oldid=191437 * Cordership * (+77)
02:38:58 <esolangs> [[User:Hammy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191439&oldid=182637 * PrySigneToFry * (+13) This polyglot also works in FlamePL.
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02:51:39 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191440&oldid=191299 * Cordership * (+27)
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03:07:26 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191441&oldid=191440 * Cordership * (+65)
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03:25:53 <None1> Is esolangs.org down again?
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03:35:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191442&oldid=190868 * None1 * (+375) /* esolangs.org down for a while */ new section
03:38:20 <esolangs> [[Vines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191443&oldid=189737 * AeroPurple * (+1886) Bit set tests, memory pointer merge quirk
03:55:15 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191444&oldid=191441 * Cordership * (+91)
03:56:24 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191445&oldid=191444 * Cordership * (-10) /* Primes using Erastothenes sieve */
03:57:06 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191446 * None1 * (+1371) Created page with "'''Turtlefuck''' is an esolang based on [[brainfuck]] that allows you to do simple graphics with a turtle. It's invented by [[User:None1]]. ==Memory== Turtlefuck uses an unbounded tape with wrapping bytes. All cells are initialized to zero. ===Unit for angles=== Becau
04:02:02 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191447&oldid=191445 * Cordership * (+783) /* 4-function calculator */
04:02:19 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191448&oldid=191447 * Cordership * (+1) /* 6-function calculator= */
04:02:25 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191449&oldid=191448 * Cordership * (+1) /* 4-function calculator= */
04:02:53 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/ function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191450&oldid=142261 * Cordership * (+27)
04:03:13 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191451&oldid=191446 * None1 * (+1) /* Commands */
04:06:17 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/ function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191452&oldid=191450 * Cordership * (+17) /* Value List */
04:06:51 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191453&oldid=191438 * Cordership * (+6)
04:09:07 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191454&oldid=191451 * None1 * (+6) /* Draw a square */
04:11:54 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191455&oldid=191454 * None1 * (+66) /* Commands */
04:12:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Junkshipp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191456&oldid=191289 * Cordership * (+12)
04:13:40 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191457&oldid=191327 * None1 * (+17) /* T */
04:14:36 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191458&oldid=191115 * None1 * (+68)
04:15:39 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191459&oldid=191455 * None1 * (+1660) /* Examples */
04:19:18 <esolangs> [[9 trits, 19683 trytes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191460&oldid=191432 * I am islptng * (+63) This action doesn't mean anything. Let it be there. Do not mention my works again.
04:20:12 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191461&oldid=191459 * None1 * (+8) /* Python */
04:20:57 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191462&oldid=191461 * None1 * (+50) /* Examples */
04:33:47 <esolangs> [[Usernames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191463&oldid=191425 * Miui * (-41) change my command
04:34:51 <esolangs> [[Usernames]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191464&oldid=191463 * Miui * (+45) find another way to approximate Pi
04:35:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Turtlefuck square.png]]"
04:36:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * None1 * uploaded "[[File:Turtlefuck circle.png]]"
04:36:44 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191467&oldid=191462 * None1 * (+62) /* Examples */
04:37:09 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191468&oldid=191467 * None1 * (+7) /* Draw a square */
04:37:20 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191469&oldid=191468 * None1 * (+6) /* Draw a circle */
04:37:53 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191470&oldid=191469 * None1 * (+47) /* Implementations */ See also
04:41:17 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191471&oldid=149107 * None1 * (+49)
04:46:40 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191472&oldid=191470 * None1 * (-2) /* Python */
04:49:46 <esolangs> [[Albuquerque challenge upgraded]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191473&oldid=191453 * I am islptng * (-211)
04:54:43 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191474&oldid=191472 * None1 * (-3) /* Commands */
05:06:16 <esolangs> [[+-)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191475&oldid=169775 * None1 * (+2) /* Calcuate 65 */
05:16:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191476 * PrySigneToFry * (+1) Created page with "?"
05:21:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191477&oldid=191476 * Miui * (-1) Blanked the page
05:22:38 <esolangs> [[Jail system makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191478&oldid=182644 * None1 * (-2399) Replaced content with "{{delete|Unrelated to esolangs}}"
05:23:19 <esolangs> [[Jail system is Turing-complete]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191479&oldid=132495 * None1 * (-725) Replaced content with "{{delete|Unrelated to esolangs}}"
05:27:56 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191480&oldid=191400 * None1 * (+515) /* Page deletion requests */ new section
05:55:24 <esolangs> [[FlamePL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191481&oldid=191330 * PrySigneToFry * (+980)
05:59:30 <esolangs> [[FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191482&oldid=191168 * PrySigneToFry * (+8614)
06:01:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191483&oldid=191429 * PrySigneToFry * (+24)
06:16:43 <esolangs> [[Overshoot Dirac Delta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191484&oldid=191352 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1273)
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06:20:58 <Yayimheretoo> also heres the lang I talked about before I left yesterday: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Overshoot_Dirac_Delta
06:22:08 <esolangs> [[Copyright makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191485&oldid=182645 * Hakerh400 * (-12742) After a thorough internal discussion, we have decided to remove this article. Our reasoning is that the article in its current form has no practical or artistic value, does not provide enough new information to inspire or enlighten readers, and creates confu
06:22:58 <esolangs> [[Copyright makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191486&oldid=191485 * Corbin * (+12742) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/191485|191485]] by [[Special:Contributions/Hakerh400|Hakerh400]] ([[User talk:Hakerh400|talk]]): Sorry, this is still gut-bustingly funny.
06:23:36 <korvo> Not pleased with myself. I burned a fascist, but I was messy and aggressive about it. They got spooked and started deleting evidence.
06:23:49 <korvo> I happened to be here and it happens to still be a funny page.
06:24:18 <korvo> Anyway, fascist got burnt, which is great, and their project (neovim) is now dragged into the sunlight, but I'm rightfully being blamed for making this harder than it had to be.
06:25:19 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Angel problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191487&oldid=189290 * Hakerh400 * (+818) /* Alternative formulations */
06:25:31 <Yayimheretoo> also I swear Hakerh400 has to be a shared project. They exclusively use we for themselves
06:25:51 <korvo> Justin M. Keyes, see https://programming.dev/post/55693999 for lots of discussion.
06:26:03 <korvo> Meh, some people are plural, let them use whatever pronouns they like.
06:27:16 <Yayimheretoo> (im not saying somebody cant use we, it just really seems like it for whatever reason)
06:27:30 <Yayimheretoo> (ah wait, "internal discussion" refers to the talk page! well great)
06:27:43 <korvo> Anyway, it sounds like you're having fun learning about audio engineering.
06:28:16 <Yayimheretoo> it actually wasn't that it was inspired by, funnily enough
06:29:16 <Yayimheretoo> it comes from a habit of mine, in which I'll imagine a drum pattern in my head, and then count that pattern on my fingers(i.e the number of transients, wrapping around when I read the end of amount of fingers), and got curious on some things
06:31:32 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191488&oldid=190772 * Hakerh400 * (+933) /* Interactive theorem provers */ New theorem prover idea
06:33:01 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191489&oldid=191488 * Hakerh400 * (+0) /* Interactive theorem provers */ Typo
06:43:07 <esolangs> [[Semi-serious language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191490&oldid=191387 * None1 * (+15) /* R */
06:47:34 <esolangs> [[Vines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191491&oldid=191443 * AeroPurple * (+206) More interesting quirks to keep in mind
06:49:36 <esolangs> [[Vines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191492&oldid=191491 * AeroPurple * (+140) /* Checking if a bit is set */ Clarification on the budding scaffolding
06:51:25 <esolangs> [[Vines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191493&oldid=191492 * AeroPurple * (+17) /* Checking if a bit is set */ More comments
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06:53:37 <esolangs> [[User:Marcus 2n2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191494&oldid=190986 * Marcus 2n2 * (+69) /* Esolangs (3 so far) */
06:54:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Marcus 2n2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191495&oldid=190987 * Marcus 2n2 * (+9) /* Esolangs (in case you are too lazy to go to my home page) */
07:03:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191496&oldid=189240 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+383)
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08:02:18 <esolangs> [[TurtleBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191497&oldid=171493 * None1 * (+133)
08:03:01 <esolangs> [[Drawfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191498&oldid=175556 * None1 * (+45)
08:03:19 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191499&oldid=191474 * None1 * (+15) /* See also */
08:07:36 <esolangs> [[TurtleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191500&oldid=185988 * None1 * (+32) /* See Also */
08:22:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191501 * Blashyrkh * (+126) Created page with "New challenge - graphical quine, eh? --~~~~"
08:57:29 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191502&oldid=191499 * PkmnQ * (+0) /* Commands */ % -> s
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09:21:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:BF Joust strategies]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191503&oldid=191293 * None1 * (+417) /* Dead links */ Finished
09:23:55 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191504&oldid=191458 * None1 * (+25)
09:35:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191505&oldid=191501 * Mrtli08 * (+70)
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09:46:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:FlamePL/Python Interpreter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191506&oldid=191483 * I am islptng * (+144)
10:02:45 <esolangs> [[Pi(e)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191507&oldid=136295 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+63) Tag as a CL (Constant language)
10:03:57 <esolangs> [[Chomp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191508&oldid=109086 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+93) categorization
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10:07:21 <esolangs> [[KofThatChickonBonkHeadAndEatITAfterDinnerWithTHeKids0rElseWEwIllDiE,S0PleseDoITForUSWhiLeWestillAreALIVEPLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191509&oldid=163095 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+134) categorization, plus joke languages still belong in Category:Languages if they "resemble" a language, esoteric or not. w
10:08:20 <MarkFan8901> hold on wait another thing about that edit
10:08:49 <MarkFan8901> "plus joke languages still belong in Category:Languages if they "resemble" a language, esoteric or not."
10:09:01 <MarkFan8901> wouldnt that fill the Category:Languages with joke langs
10:09:01 <Guest82> yeah idk what i meant by that sorry
10:09:29 <Guest82> i guess that means if a joke language still has some qualities of a language, like commands, which [i'm not gonna type all of that] does have
10:09:32 <Guest82> so it can still do some computation
10:10:02 <esolangs> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191510&oldid=151076 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+98) categorization
10:10:03 <MarkFan8901> if joke langs deserve the Category:Languages category then you wouldnt be able to sort serious languages by it
10:10:23 <MarkFan8901> and there'd have to be a Category:Non-joke Languages or something
10:11:28 <Guest82> i guess the line is kinda thin because joke languages are still languages in the sense that they are (at least most of the time) but you'd also want to be able to sift through non-joke languages only
10:12:21 <MarkFan8901> theres still the word 'language' in 'joke language'
10:12:37 <MarkFan8901> being a joke doesnt deprive a lang of being usable
10:12:46 <MarkFan8901> perhaps that is what Category:Unusable for programming is for
10:13:37 <Guest82> Some joke languages like two i made are usable for programming, but i still made them as a joke
10:13:56 <Guest82> *to some extent, they don't have to be TC but they were made as jokes
10:14:06 <Guest82> But still usable to some extent
10:14:09 <MarkFan8901> ya such as how a serious language doesnt have to be tc to be a real language
10:15:08 <MarkFan8901> also we actually just went through the talk page for [[Copyright makes no sense]]
10:15:15 <Guest82> I guess this would mean we need a more strict definition of what a "joke" language is, because creating an entirely new category is kind of crazy
10:15:51 <MarkFan8901> we think having a joke lang just be a language made with the intention of a joke works well enough already
10:15:54 <esolangs> [[CATASTROPHICA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191511&oldid=162035 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+86) categorization
10:16:20 <MarkFan8901> if you wanna filter by joke langs which you could use, you could just search for Category:Joke Languages -Category:Unusable for programming
10:16:31 <MarkFan8901> or however you write out omitting a certain category in wiki talk
10:17:18 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: holy shit they really tried using logic to try and counter that page
10:17:50 <MarkFan8901> like its so dumb BECAUSE its applying strict formulaic logic to an obviously political issue
10:18:04 <MarkFan8901> also because its so off topic to esolanging
10:18:15 <MarkFan8901> like its so easy to refute if you just dont give a fuck about what theyre actually saying
10:22:17 <esolangs> [[Gloosh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191512&oldid=182216 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+158) categorization and formatting, mark as stub
10:24:52 <MarkFan8901> we'll log off for now but we'll still be paying attention to the juicy fash bash story korvo apparently has
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10:33:00 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191513&oldid=191449 * Cordership * (+33)
10:33:21 <esolangs> [[Sigma Cortex]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191514 * Hakerh400 * (+2707) +[[Sigma Cortex]]
10:34:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191515&oldid=191457 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Sigma Cortex]]
10:34:20 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191516&oldid=190919 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Sigma Cortex]]
10:34:30 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191517&oldid=191513 * Cordership * (+148) /* Inheritance and polymorphism: */
10:35:14 <esolangs> [[Sigma Cortex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191518&oldid=191514 * Hakerh400 * (-4)
10:35:16 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191519&oldid=191517 * Cordership * (+56) /* Syntax */
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10:39:28 <esolangs> [[Sigma Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191520&oldid=191518 * Hakerh400 * (+311)
10:40:45 <esolangs> [[Sigma Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191521&oldid=191520 * Hakerh400 * (-91)
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10:43:03 <esolangs> [[Listfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191522&oldid=118905 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+98) categorization
10:44:26 <esolangs> [[KickMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191523&oldid=40567 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+10) Tag stub
10:46:37 <esolangs> [[LambdaWreck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191524&oldid=172036 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+109) categorization
10:52:52 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191525&oldid=191367 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+182) /* sino ba ako */
10:54:02 <esolangs> [[Sigma Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191526&oldid=191521 * Hakerh400 * (+1)
11:00:13 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191527&oldid=191340 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+591) /* Implementing */ I mean, you could just use the game server and rework it into a zero-player game, the main difficulty is making it in another language other than JavaScript.
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11:05:55 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191528&oldid=191527 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+644) /* Team players */ "Human" players have smarter AI than AI players
11:06:53 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191529&oldid=191528 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+116) clarify that this is more like a zero-player game than a programming language
11:15:36 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191530&oldid=191529 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+971) /* Map */
11:16:26 <esolangs> [[User:Cordership]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191531&oldid=190401 * Cordership * (+48) /* Links */
11:18:28 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191532&oldid=191530 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+191) /* Team players */ Clarify the long removed AI name
11:18:54 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191533&oldid=191532 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+44) add notes/references section
11:20:45 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191534&oldid=191519 * Cordership * (+107) /* Syntax */
11:52:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Jail system makes no sense]]": offtopic
11:54:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Jail system is Turing-complete]]": this isn't a description of an esolang
11:54:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191535&oldid=191317 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+644) my e key un-broke
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12:04:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Copyright makes no sense]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191536&oldid=182629 * Ais523 * (+433) I think this is offtopic
12:06:26 <esolangs> [[SStak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191537 * AlessandroMarp * (+4103) Created page with ":''Not to be confused with [[SStack]].'' '''SStak''' is a stack-based [[:Category:Languages|programming language]] created by Alessandro Marpino in 2026. It is interpreted, uses reverse Polish notation, and was written as a first exercise in language design. The r
12:10:01 <esolangs> [[Recursive sleeping]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191538&oldid=126572 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+141) categorization
12:11:53 <esolangs> [[InfuckBra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191539&oldid=149224 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+145) categorization
12:13:27 <esolangs> [[Stack whack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191540&oldid=159911 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+68) categorization
12:27:26 <esolangs> [[XPML17]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191541&oldid=76548 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+2078) categorization and add some details. Also, the refimpl is a dead link :C
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12:49:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: other people's similar experience to the high pointless traffic that the esowiki gets: https://people.kernel.org/monsieuricon/creepy-crawlies
12:53:57 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191542&oldid=191391 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+2129) Add implementations column
12:55:07 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191543&oldid=191542 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) /* ConstantLanguage() */ fix mistake
12:59:09 <int-e> Hmm. Shallow clones are costly? Interesting.
12:59:44 <int-e> But yeah, lots of parallels to find.
13:04:17 <esolangs> [[User:I am islptng/Draft]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191544&oldid=171076 * I am islptng * (+2053)
13:04:29 <int-e> well, maybe that's not surprising: git and mediawiki both are version control systems :)
13:05:17 <fizzie> Interesting to learn that Anubis doesn't work that well any more, though.
13:06:06 <int-e> both fundamentally, but also: residential proxies means you don't necessarily even pay for the compute
13:10:13 <b_jonas> that is a charitable way to call it
13:13:30 <int-e> The distinction to a bot is that the owner agreed (with varying degrees of dark patterns in the process). IIUC one form of these is people selling free internet; you get a router, they pay for your internet plan, but the router also acts as an intermediate (see me not calling it a proxy ;-) ) for third parties...
13:14:21 <int-e> That said, botnets are probably in the mix too.
13:15:02 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191545&oldid=191195 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+414)
13:15:50 <int-e> b_jonas: not that the distinction really matters to the crawlees.
13:32:17 <esolangs> [[MY E KEY BROKE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191546&oldid=191313 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+127)
13:36:35 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191547&oldid=191543 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-119) /* ConstantLanguage() */ not the same output you stupid, how can you possibly think that
13:42:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191548&oldid=191535 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+218)
13:42:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:MY E KEY BROKE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191549&oldid=191548 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+1)
13:43:52 <b_jonas> the situation is quite sad. if you had asked me four years ago, I would have told you that more people should download entire websites into local archives, even private ones that they don't redistricute. now I got that wish granted but in a really unhelpful way. and on some websites (not on the esowiki or kernel.org ), the gates that the websites put up make it hard for me to download their data.
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13:51:53 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191550&oldid=191431 * Miui * (+845) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/191421|191421]] by [[Special:Contributions/I am islptng|I am islptng]] ([[User talk:I am islptng|talk]])
13:54:23 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191551 * Miui * (+671)
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13:54:52 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191552&oldid=191550 * Miui * (+13) /* Constant languages */
13:55:53 <esolangs> [[Nah.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191553 * Miui * (+664) Nah.
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13:56:37 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191554&oldid=191552 * Miui * (+10) /* Constant languages */ '''Nah.''' is the [[constant language]] {{CL|"Nah."}}. You can code anything you would like, but the language will neither compile nor process it. This unfortunately means that Nah.
13:57:30 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191555&oldid=191547 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+69) /* ConstantLanguage() */ Add [[Nah.]]
13:57:43 <esolangs> [[Nuclear launch detected.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191556 * Miui * (+724) Nuclear launch detected.
13:57:43 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191557&oldid=191555 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1)
13:58:02 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191558&oldid=191554 * Miui * (+30) /* Constant languages */ Nuclear_launch_detected.
13:58:53 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191559&oldid=191557 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) /* ConstantLanguage() */ Add [[Nuclear launch detected.]]
14:00:09 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191560&oldid=191558 * Miui * (+70) /* actually hilarious */ Kia_SorrentoLX_with_no_power-steering_evading_police_in_reverse
14:01:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191561&oldid=191395 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+241)
14:02:26 <esolangs> [[lang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191562&oldid=163968 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+1) /* Interpeters */ fix typo
14:03:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191563&oldid=191561 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+544)
14:04:28 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191564&oldid=191559 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+74) /* ConstantLanguage() */ Add
14:05:47 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191565&oldid=191564 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+14) /* ConstantLanguage() */ where did I get that conclusion?
14:06:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:SStak]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191566 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+243) Created page with "i think that its possible to abuse functions to do control flow :-) --~~~~"
14:07:41 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191567&oldid=191565 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-14) I guess this is correct (also my left arrow key is stuck like the e key was)
14:08:09 <esolangs> [[SStak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191568&oldid=191537 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-2) /* Overview */ fix format
14:08:27 <esolangs> [[SStak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191569&oldid=191568 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-2) /* Overview */ why
14:09:10 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191570&oldid=191560 * I am islptng * (-64) Alright, if you really want that, i've fixed it.
14:12:16 <esolangs> [[Template:QACL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191571&oldid=191404 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-4) remove quotes since there can be cases such as QuineAvoiding("1", 500 trillion digits of sqrt(2))
14:12:40 <esolangs> [[No.pe.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191572&oldid=177487 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-20) use QACL template
14:13:06 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191573&oldid=191411 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+4) add the quotes back
14:15:03 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191574&oldid=191570 * Miui * (+17) /* Works in progress */ Miui's 2026
14:15:30 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191575&oldid=191567 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+93) /* QuineAvoiding() */ Add [[No.pe.]]
14:19:36 <ais523> b_jonas: kernel.org said that the officially supported way to download their data is via a git clone (and that most things available via the website have corresponding git repositories)
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14:20:43 <ais523> fwiw, I'm surprised that people haven't more widely adopted the strategy of switching from https to http in order to reduce server load: most publicly visible pages don't actually need https and it adds a lot of overhead
14:21:16 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191576&oldid=191545 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+733) /* Features */
14:21:20 <ais523> (and I consider it a bad allocation of resources for every website on the planet to need to protect people from their own ISP, which is the only threat model that https seems to reliably prevent)
14:21:46 <ais523> …there are a lot of dodgy ISPs out there, though
14:22:38 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191577&oldid=191525 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+77) /* 2026 - mesmerizer */
14:23:25 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191578&oldid=191575 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+48) /* QuineAvoiding() */ [[No.pe.]] has interpreters there
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14:57:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191579&oldid=191563 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+434) wow there actually isn't that much constant languages here
15:00:09 <esolangs> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191580&oldid=191368 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+384) /* Implementation */ C++ has a handful of these.
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15:14:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Function key + Page Up/Down]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191581&oldid=191379 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+867) true
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15:21:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191582 * Ractangle * (+190) Created page with "what's the purpose of this esolang tho?~~~"
15:23:46 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191583&oldid=191582 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+353)
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15:27:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ThatOneGuy * New user account
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15:29:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191584&oldid=191035 * ThatOneGuy * (+293) /* Introductions */
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15:45:05 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191585&oldid=191577 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+139) /* favorite (programming) languages */
15:51:45 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191586&oldid=191417 * Aadenboy * (+10) /* my own esolangs */
15:52:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191587 * Corbin * (+120) Created page with "What was the motivation for this article? ~~~~"
15:53:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eselangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191588 * Corbin * (+195) Created page with "We have discussed on IRC whether pages espousing latent racism are on-topic for the wiki. This page may be in scope. ~~~~"
15:54:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:GangLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191589 * Corbin * (+195) Created page with "We have discussed on IRC whether pages espousing latent racism are on-topic for the wiki. This page may be in scope. ~~~~"
15:55:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Satans Disciples GangLang $]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191590 * Corbin * (+195) Created page with "We have discussed on IRC whether pages espousing latent racism are on-topic for the wiki. This page may be in scope. ~~~~"
15:55:18 <korvo> ^^^ Being the bad guy.
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15:58:00 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191591&oldid=190540 * Dragoneater67 * (+5) :-)
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15:58:22 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191592&oldid=191591 * Dragoneater67 * (-6)
16:00:09 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191593&oldid=191592 * Dragoneater67 * (+9) muhahahhahaha
16:01:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191594&oldid=191593 * Dragoneater67 * (-83)
16:08:28 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191595&oldid=191594 * Dragoneater67 * (+31)
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16:18:39 <shachaf> ais523: How do you feel about https://tom7.org/httpv/httpv.pdf ?
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16:39:01 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191596&oldid=191578 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+76) /* Why does this exist */ rephrase?
16:39:38 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191597&oldid=191596 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+43) /* Why does this exist */
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16:46:30 <ais523> I just had an idea: if scrapers are now solving Anubis and the like, you could give a proof-of-work-ish problem for which the answer was actually useful to you (together with some way to verify it), and then use all the scrapers as a cluster
16:46:53 <ais523> …maybe Cloudflare is using their "checking you're not a bot" challenge to mine bitcoin?
16:47:11 <Guest82> so we should make the scrapers solve the halting problem or p vs np?
16:47:25 <ais523> the halting problem is known to be unsolvable
16:47:33 <ais523> P vs. NP isn't, but it's hard to see how you would prove it by brute force
16:51:06 <korvo> ais523: This leads to Hashcash, then to digital gold, then to Bitcoin, then to Monero. It's not a bad idea but it seems to not work out as we'd like.
16:51:29 <korvo> See also Ted Nelson's incorrect belief that something Internet-shaped would require micropayments; in fact, micropayments were one of the parts of Project Xanadu that were never figured out.
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16:53:01 <ais523> korvo: I'm thinking more in the sense of "it's unreasonable to require a human visitor to donate a lot of CPU time to you, but the scraperbots are being unreasonable and so you can probably milk them for more CPU than would be reasonable by a human"
16:53:23 <korvo> Anubis never made sense. It was always obviously going to inconvenience humans more than bots. The reason that it got popular is because its author went on a manic bender, declared themselves an important CEO who makes big plays, and a lot of nasty reactionary folks came out of the woodwork to get angry about anime girls. We support Anubis mostly to piss off the reactionaries, not because it's a good choice of component.
16:53:53 <korvo> ais523: Sadly, the only effective ways to deal with them are afoul of CFAA here, and probably afoul of similar statute over there.
16:54:21 <korvo> We live in a society that assumes and requires good faith, and punishes anybody who refuses to offer good faith to clearly-malicious interlocutors.
16:54:28 <ais523> well, it got popular because a) it has good marketing and b) people needed *something* to avoid the site going down from scraper load and it did work for at least a while
16:55:35 <korvo> On (b), again, there's the implicit constraint that we are following the law. A scaper who is knocking over their targets is *not* following the law. There's no technological solution to the asymmetry of responsible behavior vs criminal behavior.
16:56:12 <ais523> korvo: I think you're missing the point – the site owners don't care whether the scrapers are following the law or not, they care about their site not going down under an unmanageable amount of load
16:56:34 <korvo> ais523: *And* The site owners care about *the site owners* following the law.
16:57:10 <ais523> korvo: probably they do, but I don't think that's relevant, in the sense that I think non-illegal means for blocking scrapers are likely to be much more effective than illegal means
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16:58:03 <korvo> Anyway, Anubis has been known to be offloadable to accelerators for at least 18mo or so: https://github.com/sleeyax/anubis-solver When pressed, Anubis' author will admit that it's not meant to actually deny any access, but to punish bots who use dishonest user-agent advertisements.
16:58:48 <ais523> when it first came out, what mattered wasn't whether it was accelerable (it clearly was) but whether the scrapers had accelerators
16:58:51 <ais523> they didn't at the time, they likely do now
16:59:14 <korvo> ais523: Nah, if we were allowed, we could just take any frontier lab offline. As the bots themselves are demonstrating, the typical deployed OS is riddled with dozens of memory vulns and can be taken over by an RNG. Frontier labs aren't magically more secure, especially the ones that offer Web services.
16:59:34 <ais523> korvo: what makes you think that frontier labs are directly doing the scraping?
16:59:47 <korvo> The main reason that the Internet's not constantly hacked apart is good faith and law.
17:00:09 <ais523> I think identifying the entity or entities that are responsible for overscraping (in the sense of "attacking the entity would stop the scraping") is likely to be extremely difficult
17:00:13 <korvo> ais523: I don't see why that would put them out of range, TBH.
17:00:49 <korvo> Sorry if I'm approaching this from sort of a basic angle, BTW. There's nothing wrong with PoW, but it's not at all new, so I'm double-checking that we're on the same page WRT the phenomenon in question.
17:01:27 <ais523> I actually don't think PoW is the part of Anbuis that's relevant to stopping scraping
17:02:11 <ais523> it forces the scrapers to special-case it, *that's* the relevant part (but is undermined if it becomes too widely used)
17:02:51 <b_jonas> ais523: would you be milking the GPU capacity of the scraperbot in some useful way, eg. mine bitcoin using hashes on GPU, or would you be finding some task that requires lots of computation but can be farmed out to visitors' CPU yet isn't easier on a local GPU?
17:03:25 <korvo> I think that if we're not going to question the presence of HTTP in the system then there's no point talking about "scraping". The entire point of the system is to service GETs, isn't it? Maybe we should be unasking the entire question of why we have to centralize the data we're trying to maintain.
17:03:33 <ais523> b_jonas: it's hard to think of many compute-intensive tasks that inherently require a CPU
17:04:04 <ais523> korvo: no, servicing GETs isn't the purpose of the system, it's the mechanism via which the system operates
17:04:11 <korvo> Named Data is a serious project, for example. By no coincidence, a Named Data network only supports HTTP via encapsulation of requests and responses, freezing both in time and making them immutable.
17:04:44 <ais523> on, say, esolangs.org, the purpose of the system is to let people read about esolangs and to contribute new information about esolangs
17:05:06 <korvo> And to be scraped to death. That's Beer's axiom: the purpose of the system is what it does.
17:05:24 <b_jonas> currently the Cloudfare and Google recaptcha gates bother me more than the Anubis ones
17:05:42 <ais523> I don't think that can be right, because systems can be changed to better fit their purpose
17:05:46 <b_jonas> but possibly partly because I see Anubis only on a few sites
17:06:09 <ais523> would you say that one of the purposes of esolangs.org is to require that visitors don't specify the keys of the key-value pairs in the query string in alphabetical order?
17:06:16 <esolangs> [[Libraryfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191598 * Mrtli08 * (+515) Created page with "Libraryfuck is [[Brainfuck]] with libraries and is made by Mrtli08. === How it works === It has the 8 regular BF commands plus the library stuff, which works like this: <br> 1. {} fetches the library inside the brackets (i.e. {test.bf}). <br> 2. !() defines a librar
17:07:00 <korvo> Yep! The system could have been designed to not require that, but it certainly does.
17:07:19 <b_jonas> “many compute-intensive tasks that inherently require a CPU” => at least with the additional constraint that you can send the inputs and outputs through network and this throughput doesn't eat all the overhead, the latency doesn't bother you, and you don't trust the resulting answers because the other side may be malicious.
17:07:34 <esolangs> [[Libraryfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191599&oldid=191598 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+168) categorization
17:07:38 <korvo> Generalizing, one of the purposes is to gatekeep write access. The gatekeeping is not really oriented around whether the writing will be any good, though. There's not really any process for improvement over time, only for change over time.
17:07:39 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, ideally you want an answer that is easy to verify
17:08:17 <ais523> actually I think this axiom is inherently wrong, in that it seems to imply "all systems are perfect at fulfilling their purpose" which to me is an obviously false statement
17:08:59 <korvo> It more implies something like "all designers of systems are lying to themselves, their users, and their overseers about the purpose of the system".
17:09:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191600&oldid=191190 * Mrtli08 * (+148)
17:09:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191601&oldid=191600 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+330) /* thanks */ no problem
17:09:44 <ais523> from my point of view, you are attempting to redefine a fairly commonly used word ("purpose") to a nonstandard definition that isn't particularly useful
17:09:57 <ais523> and I'm not sure why you think that doing that is beneficial
17:10:14 <korvo> That's fine. From my POV, you're incredibly underread in systems theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does
17:10:36 <korvo> And I think that you do it because you've got some metaphysics that you haven't fully examined and you allow that metaphysics to delimit what you perceive.
17:11:11 <b_jonas> there was a recent article on this: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpose-of
17:11:57 <b_jonas> "allow that metaphysics to delimit what you perceive." => yeah, we're not the Guide mk. 2
17:12:24 <korvo> Yeah, but I'm also not citing Scott fucking Alexander~
17:13:56 <ais523> korvo: fwiw, I read that Wikipedia article, I just disagree with the points attributed to Beer in it
17:14:16 <korvo> b_jonas: https://gist.github.com/segyges/f540a3dadeb42f49c0b0ab4244e43a55
17:15:04 <esolangs> [[Sweat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191602&oldid=186281 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+166) categorization, also very cool language
17:15:17 <korvo> ais523: That's fine. I'm sure you can imagine that I have a parade-of-horribles argument here; I can list off real-world systems, point out what they primarily do, and then ask whether that's their purpose.
17:15:36 <ais523> korvo: the answer is usually that it's difficult to tell
17:15:45 <korvo> Sure, maybe the stated purpose of esolangs.org is to document esolangs, but the primary purpose is to act as a graffiti wall.
17:16:01 <ais523> a system that has intentionally been designed to do X is difficult to distinguish from a system that has unintentionally been designed to do X
17:16:15 <b_jonas> korvo: no, documenting esolangs is definitely not the only purpose
17:18:38 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191603&oldid=189910 * Blashyrkh * (+804) (some of) my golfing results
17:23:51 <korvo> ais523: So, when a system causes e.g. grievous human-rights violations as its primary effect, are we going to excuse its architects because it was unintended, because it was well-intentioned, because it was truly believed, because it was a matter of faith, because they were following good systems-design principles, ...?
17:24:22 <ais523> korvo: I think the correct approach is to look at the reactions of the architects
17:24:41 <korvo> It really grates that, rather than just *saying something* about racism on talk pages, or even doing the reasonable thing of *asking me* to leave notes on racism, you want me to be the bad guy both to you and to our young users.
17:25:40 <korvo> ais523: Oh. Their reactions in public, or their reactions in private? What does it say about those folks when they display one set of principles publically, and another when they think the public will never overhear them?
17:26:16 <korvo> (You can look up recordings of such luminaries as Mr. Reagan, Mr. Nixon, and their good friends Henry Kissinger, Roger Stone, and Lee Atwater if you want some USA examples of this.)
17:26:27 <ais523> korvo: what matters most is actions, not private opinions
17:26:49 <korvo> So what it does, not what we say the purpose of it is to do. (In private~)
17:27:23 <ais523> at school in the UK, we were taught that it is illegal to act in a discriminatory way towards ethnic minorities, but not illegal to have private opinions on the subject, regardless of what those opinions are
17:27:51 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191604&oldid=191585 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+853)
17:28:41 <ais523> (I commend the school for actually teaching people to not discriminate via actions, rather than leaving it up to people to figure it out on their own)
17:30:37 <korvo> At school in the USA, I wanted to go across the street during lunchtime to buy a slice of pizza or a baguette. But a few years in, they stopped letting students leave campus. A few years after that, they closed up the courtyard with fencing and glass, and today they require students to always be confined to specific halls when not in class.
17:31:10 <ais523> I think schools may be trending in that direction here too, but extremely slowly
17:31:17 <ais523> to the extent that I'm not sure it's a real pattern
17:31:30 <korvo> Michel Foucault would have said that this is because the actual purpose of a school is to imprison teenagers and indoctrinate them into capitalism, while the stated purpose is to educate and open minds. (And I won a debate as a teen by pursuing this line of reasoning.)
17:32:41 <ais523> there is, generally, a legal requirement to ensure that children do not place themselves into dangerous situations; over here, the requirement is placed on the child's parents most of the time, but while the child is at school, it is delegated to the school
17:33:31 <ais523> so schools normally attempt to make sure that they can keep an eye on the children (and the extent to which they do this may depend on how mature the child is)
17:33:36 <korvo> Yep, loco parentis is a thing here too. And indeed they say that the reasoning is school shooters. That's also the reason why there's a cop stationed in the school.
17:33:55 <ais523> school shooters are almost unheard of in the UK
17:34:34 <ais523> the dangers are more things like schoolchildren getting into fights with other schoolchildren (especially ones that go to a different school), which can lead to injuries even when weapons are not involved
17:35:04 <korvo> In practice, the purpose of the cop is to bust teens for drugs. Lately, the purpose is to bust teens for daring to be trans, autistic, furry, or queer.
17:35:45 <korvo> A cop in a school has never actually arrested a shooting in progress. Look up the cop responses to the Uvalde shooting, for example.
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17:36:23 <ais523> I think you're wrong – I think the purpose of the cop is to reassure the parents
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17:36:56 <ais523> this doesn't require them to be effective at their job, it just requires the parents to perceive that they might be
17:38:07 <korvo> And fortunately teens don't have rights~ https://www.opb.org/news/article/police-schools-oregon-remove-beaverton-lake-oswego-salem-keizer/ Here in Oregon, there was a COVID-era student-led movement to remove cops from schools because the *students* did not feel reassured.
17:38:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of (if anything)
17:38:58 <ais523> often you make a mix of statements I agree with and statements I disagree with, but can't tell where the argument is going or whether you're trying to make one
17:39:36 <korvo> Foucault would suggest that parents are only reassured to the degree that they can ensure that the school will follow through with the parent's expectations for punishment. For example, it was important to my parents that the school involuntarily medicate me in their absence. This is a hint that, like System of a Down said so many times, basically every power structure in capitalist society is prison-shaped.
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17:40:43 <korvo> Concretely? In terms of idealism, I'm hoping to liberate you from milquetoast liberalism by pointing out that we live in a society. In terms of the wiki, I'm trying to get at the roots of why it's obvious to some folks that some pages are racist, and also digging at why you were unwilling to act.
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17:41:28 <ais523> korvo: I would posit that the page is not *obviously* racist – to someone who does not have context, it is difficult to tell whether it is or not
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17:41:44 <korvo> Also, in terms of holding mirrors up to people, which is basically the only thing my personality can *do*, I'm hoping that you see that when you say stuff like "I think you're wrong" about the lived experience of people far away from you, that you can understand the sources of your presumptions.
17:42:42 <ais523> for example, one possibility that is consistent with all the facts I currently have is "the page is making fun of gangs, but this is not specific to any particular race" (in which case deleting the page on the basis that it were racist would itself be a racist thing to do, on the basis that it would brand members of a particular race as tending to be gang members)
17:43:20 <korvo> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cholo Well, those excuses are gone now.
17:43:47 <korvo> It's okay to not recognize a particular slur or insult. It's okay to have to go look them up. It's okay to not know until members of the community speak up and point it out.
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17:44:47 <ais523> korvo: I wasn't even looking on that part of the page
17:45:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Eselangs]]": language description contains a racial slur
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17:47:13 <ais523> I am curious as to why you didn't edit the problematic part out, though (which you could have done yourself)
17:47:39 <korvo> Teach man fish, etc.
17:48:23 <korvo> Also, I'm not one of *those* moderators. If somebody's problematic then I'm making an example out of them.
17:48:30 <ais523> the odds that I catch such things on my own in future are very low, and the point of a wiki is that multiple p
17:48:38 <ais523> *people can cooperate in trying to improve it
17:51:54 <ais523> in any case, I hadn't realised until searching for the word on the page that the problem was with the description surrounding the language, not the language itself, so I was looking in the wrong place
17:52:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191605&oldid=191587 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+205) duh
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17:55:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191606&oldid=191605 * Blashyrkh * (+249) my humble opinion on constant languages
17:55:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191607&oldid=190121 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+270) /* QUINE */
17:57:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191608&oldid=191607 * Blashyrkh * (+145) /* QUINE */
17:57:28 <korvo> ais523: Roommate looked over my shoulder at GangLang and said "so obviously racist. painfully racist. if somebody came up in a black or hispanic neighborhood and started talking like that, they'd get fucking shot. or accused of being a cop."
17:57:41 <korvo> So yeah, verdict is that you're really out of touch. Sorry.
17:58:28 <ais523> korvo: this is the point I was trying to make – because I am not in touch with this I am not the right person to make decisions about this
17:58:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191609&oldid=191606 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+708) They just wanted to create a language that prints "Nah.", though it should probably be merged with the others like it
17:59:15 <ais523> this is why you need to either a) contact another admin who understands the problem better than I do, or b) start a community discussion because the community is quite likely to have people who understand the issues
18:00:00 <ais523> a lot of dysfunction is caused by people making decisions about things they don't understand
18:00:40 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191610&oldid=191609 * Blashyrkh * (+199)
18:02:16 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191611&oldid=191610 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+463)
18:03:06 <korvo> Well, you've got an Autocracy on your hands. If there's no other Diplomats then it's up to you to find more Autocrats until you can sustain a proper Democracy. Right now, doing anything Democratic is going to fail and I'm sure you already know that this doesn't improve with scale.
18:03:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191612&oldid=191608 * Blashyrkh * (+306) /* A+B golfing challenge */ new section
18:04:05 <korvo> But, like, I personally am really doubting how much of that is sincere and how much of that is (c) that there's clearly a lot of deletions in scope for policy, and by not making those routine, we have seen an erosion of the *process* which would make cleanup possible. This is why I stubbed process and policy pages.
18:05:23 <korvo> Especially given that, right now, the wiki doesn't really support any sort of forward-compatibility with some non-prosaic format that can be reasonably computerized. We should think of ourselves as in a continuum with projects like PLDB, which I guess today is at http://pldb.info/
18:06:35 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191613&oldid=191604 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+430) /* Some strange questions and thoughts and ideas */
18:07:19 <ais523> korvo: looking after the wiki is extremely difficult for me; I attempt to do it because nobody else is and I don't want the wiki to collapse completely, but sometimes I've thought about just abandoning it
18:08:41 <ais523> there are a lot of deletions that would be beneficial, but it's hard for me to make a decision about all of them unilaterally, which is why I want things like widely agreed topicality rules to help guide the decisions so that i don't need to make so many of them
18:09:07 <korvo> ais523: You know full well that you're talking to somebody who writes new pages, organizes old pages, identifies patterns, tries to adhere to community norms, and in general would be well-qualified for additional power. We also both know full well that the main reason you won't do it is because I am 100% unafraid to delete [[language list]].
18:09:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191614&oldid=191612 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+237) /* QUINE */
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18:09:53 <korvo> So please don't set up claims like "nobody else is [looking/willing-to-look after the wiki]" when there's clearly a healthy community of editors, including high-quality editors, including (in theory) me.
18:10:05 <ais523> korvo: actually no, I am also planning to delete the language list at smoe point; I'm against giving you admin power because I think you would use too much of it too quickly and drive people away from the site
18:10:22 <ais523> <korvo> Also, I'm not one of *those* moderators. If somebody's problematic then I'm making an example out of them. ← like that
18:10:54 <korvo> Good! Be skeptical. But don't say I'm nobody.
18:10:56 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191615&oldid=191611 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+278) death to all trivial languages
18:10:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191616&oldid=191614 * Blashyrkh * (+148) /* QUINE */
18:11:11 <ais523> it is extremely common for someone to be initially problematic due to not understanding some aspect of how the community works, banning all such people is short-term reasonable but tends to kill a site in the medium term
18:12:07 <ais523> and you write articles like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Monoid which have no clear target audience
18:12:17 <b_jonas> fwiw, I also wouldn't like korvo to get wiki admin rights, even though I respect his contributions about object level programming language theory stuff
18:13:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191617&oldid=191615 * Blashyrkh * (+245)
18:13:15 <b_jonas> but if you korvo warn ais523 about problems on the wiki, here or on the wiki, that does help make his work easier
18:13:22 <korvo> That's fine. I don't mind being the bad guy as long as I can show problematic patterns by example.
18:13:43 <ais523> (I am also not sure if I even have the power to make new wiki admins; I think I have the technical ability but am not sure, but this is the sort of decision that would definitely need multiple admins to agree)
18:14:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191618&oldid=191617 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+223) deadfish
18:14:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191619&oldid=191618 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+1)
18:14:40 <b_jonas> sure, it's mostly on fizzie
18:15:09 <ais523> I think fizzie is in the same position as me from a sysadmin point of view, i.e. is running the site because nobody else is
18:15:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191620&oldid=191619 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+473)
18:15:49 <korvo> You may assume that articles like [[monoid]] are written solely for search engines. (Extremely funny that you cannot imagine why I would consolidate and clean up lab notes from around the wiki. Do we want to look like a messy lab bench?)
18:16:18 <ais523> korvo: I hadn't considered that as a target audience
18:16:37 <ais523> normally the reason you expose your site to search engines is so that they can help humans to find it, if they are looking at it
18:16:46 <ais523> * if they are looking for it
18:17:20 <ais523> admittedly search engines have been getting worse at this over time, but for niche subjects where there's only a few pages on the Internet that could possibly be relevant they are still generally able to find them
18:18:22 <ais523> I just searched for "underload programming language" and the Esolang page on it was the first non-ad result
18:18:50 <korvo> When I said "LLMs are good at reading and bad at writing", I meant it. Some text is worth writing simply because textbook-quality technically-minded clearly-written content will *steer* the bots.
18:19:04 <ais523> but why host it on esolangs.org?
18:19:32 <ais523> if you are trying to steer bots, it would make more sense to use a host that doesn't open up every page to editing by the general public
18:19:38 <korvo> But that's really just for generality. Because there *are* people out there beyond your perception who read stuff. I mean, would you ask why I post on certain AO3 tags too?
18:20:09 <ais523> my main complaint about the monoid article is that anyone who is able to understand it will already know what a monoid is
18:20:20 <ais523> (and most likely attempt to look it up at Wikipedia rather than here)
18:20:23 <korvo> [[monoid]] and [[computable]] are gifts to the community: here, I've cleaned up the lab notes. I'm not fully finished for [[monoid]], in that I think that there's a lot of content around BF minimalization that can be formalized too.
18:22:10 <korvo> English Wikipedia doesn't have intuition for monoids, work the examples of free monoids, or otherwise do the work to introduce the topic. Simple English doesn't really do well either; they start, "in abstract algebra, a monoid is a set of elements along with an operation", just like a textbook.
18:22:47 <ais523> a free monoid is just a list, right?
18:23:16 <ais523> (symmetrical list, not the cons cell version)
18:23:31 <ais523> I guess "string" fits the intuition better
18:23:32 <korvo> But I don't think of esolangs.org as a free web host. Rather, I think of it as a historically-important community, like a heritage site, which deserves community love and care. That's kind of why I'm at all emotionally invested in, y'know, preventing new graffiti from showing up.
18:23:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191621&oldid=191620 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+504) kind of interesting situation
18:24:37 <ais523> I think of it as primarily being about trying to prevent information about esolangs being *lost*, and secondarily about helping people to discover it (which is why there is a bias towards inclusionism)
18:25:25 <ais523> there is a limit to the first part of this, but I'm not sure where the line is
18:25:55 <ais523> (context: the site was set up in response to information about esolangs being deleted from Wikipedia due to not being considered sufficiently notable)
18:26:19 <ais523> sometimes, things that seemed pointless turned out to be useful/important in retrospect
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18:26:55 <ais523> e.g. trivial brainfuck substitutions are usually uninteresting and there are a lot of them out there, but a few years ago a project ended up needing them in quantity and then it was useful that they were documented
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18:35:35 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191622&oldid=191621 * PkmnQ * (+337) and I'm here too!
18:37:32 <korvo> ais523: Anyway, I'm sorry for pushing the point for two days. I won't do that in the future. I hope you can understand that, every morning, I wonder whether my trans girlfriend is home safely, or whether my neighbors are going to be detained by ICE, or whether RFK Jr. has ordered an overnight roundup of everybody like me to be taken to a Midwest labor camp, and that perhaps this has affected how I relate to power structures.
18:39:31 <korvo> But I hope that you're seeing the power of ten words or less. For the chatbots, it's "what is the monoid of brainfuck?" Currently above, it's "What was the motivation for this article?" Before, it was "how to translate [Spanish word] to English?"
18:40:13 <korvo> So, I'm gonna take a vacation, because I don't think I'm going to be useful for a while, but I want to leave with: What is the process for reviewing articles to be deleted?
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18:41:03 <ais523> I think the process is still technically "start a discussion on the talk page, hopefully people will join in, if an admin thinks there's a consensus they will delete it" but this is somewhat dependent on how long it takes the admin to notice
18:41:35 <ais523> it is not very good for time-sensitive deletions, but historically there hasn't been much of a need for those
18:42:18 <ais523> historically there was a separate process of "the site owner doesn't like it and deletes it unilaterally" which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't
18:45:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191623&oldid=191622 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+567) yeah good point
18:46:20 <aadenboy> ais523: what was the project that they were used for?
18:46:34 <ais523> aadenboy: a polyglot that worked in a very large number of languages
18:47:05 <ais523> BF substititions are normally pretty easy to work into a polyglot because they ignore everything other than 8 specific commands
18:47:17 <aadenboy> feels a bit cheaty that way though
18:47:37 <ais523> there were lots of practical languages in there too
18:47:50 <ais523> although that was cheated to some extent too via using different versions/variants
18:48:10 <ais523> Haskell has lots of extensions, the polyglot would treat Haskell with different extension sets as different languages
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18:49:27 <int-e> Hmm... prank or LLM slop? Praphrasing snippet I saw scroll by in a search engine: "using radare2 is as easy as running `r2 <file>` to open the radare tool; then all that remains is to learn how to use the tool" (I'm leaning towards LLM slop)
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18:50:01 <int-e> also... weird way to disconnect... I was still receiving messages but couldn't send any
18:50:05 <b_jonas> ais523: surely not all BF substitutions ignore everything else
18:50:24 <b_jonas> some of them probably give an error, or treat it as the end of the program
18:50:47 <ais523> int-e: this may be "LLM sunk cost fallacy", where it starts a sentence for which there's no reasonable way to end it, but just keeps on going anyway
18:51:04 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess this is a philosophical question about what is and isn't a BF substitution
18:51:20 <ais523> BF ignores things it doesn't understand, if you remove that rule from a language, is it still a substitution?
18:51:34 <ais523> clearly you still end up with a BF *equivalent* but that's a slightly different class of language
18:53:21 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but ignoring everything else is more natural when each command is a single character long than in substitutions with longer names for the commands
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19:02:57 <b_jonas> (it may still ignore *some* non-instruction things, eg. some substitutions could ignore whitespace)
19:03:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191624&oldid=191623 * Miui * (+297)
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19:12:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191625&oldid=191624 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+634)
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19:13:44 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191626&oldid=191625 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+466)
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19:23:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191627&oldid=191626 * Miui * (+696) Nah. foo
19:25:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191628&oldid=191627 * Miui * (+385)
19:26:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191629&oldid=191628 * Miui * (+1)
19:27:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:Eselangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191630&oldid=191588 * Miui * (+247)
19:29:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191631&oldid=191583 * Miui * (+504)
19:30:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Satans Disciples GangLang $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191632&oldid=191590 * Miui * (+257)
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19:33:21 <MarkFan8901> miuis reaction on Talk:Nah. makes us think we didnt go about page deletion correctly
19:33:45 <MarkFan8901> > upposedly "eselangs" contains a recaial slur and was deleted, and is just another bad faith argument it seems folks are using to gang up on me, but that language as well does not contain a racial slur, and it genuinely useful for people who speak that programming language naturally to learn how to program.
19:33:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:61: error: parse error on input `,'
19:33:55 <Guest82> lambdabot now is not the time.
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19:34:25 <MarkFan8901> from miuis perspective, a bunch of their languages are starting to get discussion seemingly for the sole point of deletion
19:34:41 <MarkFan8901> and we think thats making them really defensive
19:35:17 <MarkFan8901> we feel like miui should be talked to directly instead
19:35:27 <aadenboy> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2026-08-30.html#lxh this was what led to the deletion
19:36:02 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191633&oldid=191574 * Miui * (+76) /* actually hilarious */
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19:37:10 <MarkFan8901> taking each individual page of theirs down is NOT the right move
19:37:26 <Guest82> you mean they should have discussed with miui first before deleting the page?
19:37:41 <MarkFan8901> we mean they should discuss with miui about all of their behavior
19:37:46 <esolangs> [[BackroomsTDP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191634&oldid=188968 * Miui * (+8) Tag work in progrese
19:37:59 <MarkFan8901> since basically all their languages fall under candidates for deletion
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19:38:18 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191635&oldid=191633 * Miui * (+18) /* Works in progress */ add backroomsTDP to works in progress
19:38:28 <MarkFan8901> attacking each page individually does kinda feel like being ganged up on
19:38:56 <MarkFan8901> and like the decision to delete your pages was made behind your back
19:39:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nuclear launch detected.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191636 * Miui * (+217) Created page with "This one also exists for a reason, which related to my starcraft language [[Color Dialog]] and potential advancements I could make thematically. ~~~~"
19:41:18 <MarkFan8901> like we think 'have a discussion about it' on each individual page is just bogging the process down
19:41:32 <MarkFan8901> the topicality proposal was so we could delete stuff like this en masse without having to do that
19:41:44 <MarkFan8901> ofc not to say there shouldnt be consideration or even communication
19:42:06 <aadenboy> something I've seen and done myself on other wikis is moving pages to userspace; it's clearly going "hey, we can't have this in mainspace", but it's not outright deleting it
19:42:38 <aadenboy> and it's able to be moved back to mainspace once applicable for inclusion
19:42:39 <MarkFan8901> we dont remember the policy on multiple userspace articles
19:42:46 <ais523> aadenboy: that probably doesn't work well here
19:42:50 <ais523> userspace abuse was very common in the past
19:42:57 <ais523> so there was something of a crackdown on it
19:43:04 <ais523> (probably not enough of one, though)
19:43:08 <Guest82> is that why the "only one sandbox per user" rule exists?
19:43:32 <ais523> that rule exists because someone (not me) edited it onto the policy page and nobody reverted it
19:43:40 <ais523> I haven't tried to enforce it yet
19:43:55 <ais523> (but this is a valid way to make policy on a wiki, if enough people understand how it works)
19:45:49 <MarkFan8901> reading more on miuis takes, they have some weird warped view of what the purpose of esolangs are
19:46:00 <MarkFan8901> that might just apply more generally to the kind of pages we dont want
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19:46:26 <MarkFan8901> which is that theyre just containers for raw ideas
19:46:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Satans Disciples GangLang $]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191637&oldid=191632 * Miui * (+165)
19:47:29 <MarkFan8901> like theyre all less about actually building a language and more about "language about [insert topic here]"
19:48:08 <MarkFan8901> miui seems to be taking the attack as an attack on the topics of their languages
19:49:16 <ais523> I like the "containers for raw ideas" way of expressing it
19:49:41 <ais523> I guess "language about" / "language that" is also an interesting distinction (mine are primarily in the latter category)
19:50:14 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nah.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191638&oldid=191629 * Miui * (+78) add archived link for posterity
19:51:35 <MarkFan8901> yea if you pay attention most slop languages like that are really just, *themed* around some idea
19:52:03 <MarkFan8901> the language itself is kind of an afterthought
19:52:12 <MarkFan8901> in more charitable cases its made to work to fit the theme
19:53:00 <Guest82> sorry for being clueless but what do you mean by "containers for raw ideas", is it like a thematic language minus the language part?
19:53:14 <MarkFan8901> its okay we weren't sure if that made sense
19:53:35 <MarkFan8901> what we mean is like, the language is simply a means to express *some* idea
19:53:56 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191639&oldid=191635 * Miui * (+168) /* Constant languages */ add Kek
19:54:03 <MarkFan8901> so that emphasis on the language itself is put down in the process
19:54:16 <Guest82> ah so like the language is just a medium for the theme, instead of "wearing" the theme like with LOLCODE or Chef?
19:57:13 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dooblix * uploaded "[[File:Minez logo.png]]"
19:59:46 <esolangs> [[Minez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191641&oldid=189239 * Dooblix * (+62) Added the Minez Logo to the article
19:59:52 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191642&oldid=191551 * Miui * (+347) added some examples
20:00:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Desktop.png]]": copyright violation (contains copyrighted images, e.g. icons and the desktop background)
20:01:06 <MarkFan8901> >It works by arithmetically manipulating the integer in register 0 to the ASCII value of each character in sequence and printing it.
20:01:16 <MarkFan8901> that makes the hello world program sound SO dramatic
20:01:29 <esolangs> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191643&oldid=191151 * Salpynx * (+22) "Shameful" is part of this language's history, removing the necessarily non-existent category breaks multiple references on talk pages and elsewhere
20:01:50 <aadenboy> "arithmetically manipulating" sounds like LLM slop
20:02:37 <Guest82> you mean like when you try to hit a word count on an essay?
20:02:58 <esolangs> [[Minez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191644&oldid=191641 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+84) some more categorization
20:03:08 <aadenboy> more like making it seem more grandiose than it really is
20:03:42 <MarkFan8901> makes it sound like ur crawling ur way through a room of lazers to get the bits to the exact right places
20:04:16 <MarkFan8901> we swear the logo doesnt look ai generated tho
20:04:42 <MarkFan8901> looks like smth that could be made on that example drawing app ipads have at the store
20:04:55 <esolangs> [[Esme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191645&oldid=191643 * Aadenboy * (+1)
20:05:27 <MarkFan8901> also what is that argument >removing the necessarily non-existent category breaks multiple references on talk pages and elsewhere
20:05:41 <MarkFan8901> its a deliberately broken link. you cant break anything removing it
20:06:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191646&oldid=191631 * Ractangle * (+437)
20:06:17 <MarkFan8901> oh also what are your guys' thoughts on 'old' joke languages like esme?
20:07:04 <aadenboy> my stance is that if they're notable like [[HQ9+]] or usable like [[LOLCODE]] they can say
20:07:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191647&oldid=191477 * Miui * (+1322) tl;dr I can't verify that the translator reflected the meaning accurately, so I made this page.
20:07:17 <MarkFan8901> we think filtering by >2021 or smth would be good
20:07:17 <ais523> Esme is the same sort of thing that Miui is flooding the wiki with, except it was fairly unique back then
20:07:54 <ais523> it leads to a problem, because how can you allow one page like that without allowing all the pages like that? unless you merge them somehow
20:08:05 <MarkFan8901> just say its protected by historical context
20:08:08 <ais523> (IIRC Esme even did the "broken URL as extra context" thing)
20:08:19 <ais523> fwiw i don't personally care much about Esme, but I know some other people do
20:08:38 <MarkFan8901> we would say esme does quality for notability
20:09:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191648&oldid=191646 * Miui * (+179)
20:10:00 <MarkFan8901> maybe we should also be bringing this discussion to the topicality proposal
20:10:11 <MarkFan8901> so its not behind closed doors for ppl who arent on the irc
20:12:13 <MarkFan8901> wait hold on the edit history of esme is really funny
20:12:27 <MarkFan8901> theres like 8 edits in a row where someone gets rid of the nonexistent category and someone adds it back
20:13:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191649&oldid=191648 * Miui * (+201)
20:13:49 <MarkFan8901> checking back it does actually seem to be a part of the original language
20:14:12 <MarkFan8901> maybe there should be a comment in source abt how its important to the history of esme
20:14:23 <MarkFan8901> which the concept of would be really funny and fitting for esme imo
20:16:24 <MarkFan8901> yea marking esme as historical might be the best thing to do
20:16:50 <MarkFan8901> cuz it *was* made in a notably different context than languages right now
20:17:28 <MarkFan8901> enough so to justify its existence even when it violates topicality
20:17:47 <fungot> MarkFan8901: fnord/ fnord/ fnord
20:18:59 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191650&oldid=191639 * Miui * (+135) /* personal esopages */ add my personal esopage
20:20:02 <esolangs> [[QuadnaryLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191651&oldid=154484 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+133) categorization, also maybe don't use h[n] tags?
20:20:29 <MarkFan8901> okay our good will for miui is rapidly dwindling
20:21:04 <MarkFan8901> on their neocities they have a "maya kendrick #1 fan" page
20:21:45 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191652&oldid=178807 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+134) categorization
20:21:47 <MarkFan8901> and the description of her on the page is misleading to make you believe she was some sort of mexican activist
20:23:14 <esolangs> [[Common]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191653&oldid=173146 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+155) categorization
20:23:27 <MarkFan8901> ok yea no theyre just leading ppl to unwittingly look up porn
20:23:57 <MarkFan8901> ais523: you could probably do something about this pretty comfortably
20:24:12 <MarkFan8901> the edit in question is the one where miui adds their "personal esopage"
20:24:44 <esolangs> [[GLUG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191654&oldid=173150 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+140) categorization
20:25:04 <esolangs> [[GLUG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191655&oldid=191654 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) pls fix the case mistake in some of the categories
20:25:40 <ais523> MarkFan8901: I don't think that's an easy decision (it might even be a collision of names)
20:26:13 <ais523> sometimes two different people have the same name as each other
20:26:29 <ais523> my real name is extremely common and you probably wouldn't find me if searching for it
20:26:43 <ais523> at least, not without added context
20:27:07 <MarkFan8901> yea we looked that name up with nsfw off and it came back with literally 0 results
20:27:51 <MarkFan8901> if maya kendrick is the name of a real mexican advocate they are NOT notable enough for a "#1 fan page"
20:28:30 <esolangs> [[Password generator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191656&oldid=150951 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+10) stub page? the description of the program here is kinda vague
20:28:48 <ais523> in cases like this I would rather find a better reason to remove the link (e.g. because the page is offtopic (is it?) and it's inappropriate to use this site to advertise your personal pages)
20:28:58 <ais523> in any case, you don't need to be an admin to delete a link from a page
20:29:32 <ais523> the account creation process is a bit convoluted, in order to keep out spambots
20:30:03 <MarkFan8901> we're torn between MarkFan8901, eqispety, and lefmonbee
20:30:12 <aadenboy> ais523: I should ask, are the external links on my page OK? "VSCode Box Drawing" extension section might be an issue
20:30:54 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191657&oldid=191489 * Miui * (+60) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
20:31:00 <aadenboy> you can use displaytitle to makje it lowercase on your page
20:31:10 <aadenboy> {{DISPLAYTITLE:User:lefmonbee}}
20:31:23 <ais523> it'll still have the first letter capitalised in most places other than the page, though
20:32:06 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191658&oldid=191613 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-10355) wipe
20:34:12 <MarkFan8901> wait is `a b` the order they appear on the stack or the order they were pushed
20:34:59 <ais523> 1 2 - is 2 minus 1 I think
20:35:56 <ais523> (you may as well use the bot to solve the captcha for you rathe than trying to work it out by hand)
20:36:21 <somefan> i notation polish reverse love
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20:37:40 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191659&oldid=186157 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+648) not unimplemented anymore
20:37:51 <ais523> oddly, the spambots used to often get past the befunge part of the captcha, but then got stuck at the introduce yourself stage
20:38:16 <MarkFan8901> also wait which bot can we use for befunge code
20:38:28 <ais523> do `! befunge and then the program
20:38:53 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MarkFan8901 * New user account
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20:39:08 <esolangs> [[Nope. with no quine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191660&oldid=191659 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-1) bruh wrong order
20:39:15 <aadenboy> thought about some kind of QuineCycling() language where the quine cycles after N unique strings
20:39:33 <ais523> my guess is that spambot frameworks have a way to escalate to humans for solving weird captchas, but don't have any way to cope with after-captcha requirements
20:40:00 <ais523> aadenboy: programs like that have been written, both in specific languages and across languages
20:40:31 <MarkFan8901> maybe there could be something interesting in trying to get constant semantics to do stuff thats interesting
20:40:51 <ais523> hmm, how often is it to get a periodic error quine with a period other than 1?
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20:41:47 <MarkFan8901> ok a quine cycling language would seem to be an fsa
20:42:03 <MarkFan8901> where the state is determined by each program, rather than things *in* the program
20:42:28 <MarkFan8901> like you have to give it program a for it to go into state b, then program b for it to go into state c, etc
20:43:08 <aadenboy> I haven't seen any quine languages which have multiple unique quines; a -> a but also b -> b, or a -> b -> a but also c -> a -> b -> a
20:43:50 <aadenboy> this sounds like some sort of graph
20:43:59 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191661&oldid=191650 * Miui * (-1) /* Constant languages */ typo
20:44:05 <MarkFan8901> how many quines can a language have before its turing complete
20:44:35 <int-e> you can make all programs a quine
20:45:01 <esolangs> [[RNA/rna.c]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191662&oldid=21591 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+30) categorize as implementation, also the "all rights reserved" tells me this might not be public domain but seems like the author put it here themselves
20:45:20 <aadenboy> s -> (input concat): s0 -> 0 -> nil; s1 -> 1 -> 1
20:45:50 <ais523> aadenboy: I did consider a joke "broken quine-avoiding constant language" which always printed string A, unless the input was string B in which case it printed string B
20:46:01 <int-e> MarkFan8901: you can make a "real" programming language in this spirit by carving out a prefix (or other criterion) that interprets a small subset of inputs differently
20:46:08 <ais523> (quine-avoiding constant languages print string B if the input is string A, not if it's string B)
20:46:37 <esolangs> [[GolfBall]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=191663 * ASCIIguy * (+763) Created page with "'''GolfBall''' is a golfing language inspired by [[Binary lambda calculus]]. Due to the language's nature, if an ambiguous instruction is given, a greedy algorithm is employed. It was designed to be more usable than BLC, but still very compact. ==Operations and Syntax=
20:46:43 <MarkFan8901> int-e: we were thinking something along the lines of tree rewriting
20:46:46 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191664&oldid=191657 * Miui * (+145) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
20:46:48 <aadenboy> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant_language_directory#QuineInvoking()
20:47:02 <Guest82> only 1 quine invoking language on the wiki lol
20:47:16 <ais523> ah, so it isn't a new idea
20:47:23 <MarkFan8901> like what if s0 led to setting two quine states at the same time
20:47:30 <Guest82> QuineInvoking() was on [[ConstantLanguage()]]
20:47:40 <esolangs> [[!Matrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191665&oldid=171832 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+136) categorization
20:47:46 <MarkFan8901> similar to how a nonterminal can be rewritten to multiple nonterminals in an unrestricted grammar
20:48:06 <aadenboy> QI() could be generalizable; i.e a -> b, b -> b would be QI("a", "b"), QI("b", "b")
20:48:25 <ais523> hmm, this conversation is making me think about a language which, whenever you run it, outputs another program in the same language, and you run it repeatedly to do computation
20:48:35 <ais523> (I made a language like that ages ago, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag)
20:48:46 <ais523> approximately 20 years old
20:48:58 <int-e> TC languages don't need to have quines (this becomes a matter of encoding, which may involve running the same program with many inputs if the output is restricted to two different ones (enough for decision problems))
20:49:33 <MarkFan8901> we remember reading all the talk page about quineless languages when we were like 15 and it blew our minds
20:49:46 <int-e> Counting quines just isn't a very good way to approximate TC-ness.
20:50:08 <MarkFan8901> yea but its still a VERY interesting discussion on whether being tc entails having a quine
20:50:17 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191666&oldid=190523 * Miui * (+26) added link to PROLAN/M for more context on sequential replacement languages
20:50:45 <esolangs> [[Morse-Assembly-Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191667&oldid=170720 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+130) if your joke language can still do computation then it deserves the language category too
20:50:50 <ais523> the difficulty of writing a quine normally depends on how difficult it is for the language to escape strings (and to copy strings, which is usually easier but theoretically might not be in some languages)
20:51:15 <MarkFan8901> something that we thought of was a language that was actually just an array of all possible computations you could do
20:51:25 <MarkFan8901> and a program would simply just be indexing the array for the right one
20:52:34 <ais523> MarkFan8901: I considered that a couple of times
20:52:39 <MarkFan8901> theoretically, you could just make it so that none of the numbers could possibly correspond to any of the output of the computation in question
20:52:42 <ais523> in one case the computations were indexes into OEIS
20:52:45 <esolangs> [[Varstak]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191668&oldid=164866 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+8) mark as WIP
20:52:49 <MarkFan8901> but that raises the question of what 'computation' is
20:53:00 <ais523> (which would be difficult to implement because not all OEIS sequences have a program available to compute them)
20:53:19 <aadenboy> OEIS sequences aren't infinite either
20:53:22 <ais523> and in the other they were indexes into anagol challenges, taking the majority vote of all submissions
20:53:51 <MarkFan8901> yea we've also been fascinated by the concept of some "raw" computation
20:54:16 <esolangs> [[Bitwise]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191669&oldid=108876 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+86) some more categorization
20:54:18 <MarkFan8901> which you could manipulate directly to change what a program 'does'
20:54:41 <MarkFan8901> looking back on it it was very pseudomathematical but its still a nice thought we think
20:55:00 <MarkFan8901> pseudomathematical in the same sense of the word pseudoscientific
20:55:43 <esolangs> [[Muon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191670&oldid=160391 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) categorization
20:56:05 <MarkFan8901> specifically, one thought we had was that messing with the 'frame' of a problem could expose this 'raw' computation
20:56:17 <MarkFan8901> the canonical example we came up with was a tower of hanoi
20:56:53 <MarkFan8901> imagine you have two different things to simulate a tower of hanoi, an abstract mathematical model and a physical model which used stacking blocks on top of each other
20:56:55 <esolangs> [[Emmental/Printing Code That Prints Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191671&oldid=149480 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+38) formatting and categorize as example
20:57:21 <MarkFan8901> you can see pretty trivially how they both do 'the same thing'
20:57:49 <esolangs> [[StuLa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191672&oldid=93308 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+59) category 2019 and unknown computational class
20:57:50 <MarkFan8901> but say you had an actual function which could transform the two to each other
20:58:45 <MarkFan8901> where you could 'translate' physically moving a block to a stack and abstractly moving a ring to a stack
20:59:22 <MarkFan8901> now say your physical model has some level of error as you solve it
20:59:47 <MarkFan8901> if that error became significant enough, the blocks would fall
21:00:02 <MarkFan8901> but what if you used that translation function on *that* state?
21:00:25 <MarkFan8901> what would it look like for the abstract model to represent the raw meaning of the blocks having fell over
21:01:10 <MarkFan8901> and another thing, how would the state of the block error be represented in earlier parts of the execution of the abstract model
21:01:35 <ais523> "bisimulation" is the name for two things that can each simulate the other, due to in a sense doing the same computation
21:01:39 <esolangs> [[15]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191673&oldid=168840 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+93) categorization
21:02:13 <ais523> but if your blocks can fall over, it isn't obviously a bisimulation any more
21:02:36 <esolangs> [[Coercionfulity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191674&oldid=121038 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+86) some more categorization
21:02:55 <MarkFan8901> ye but What If You Applied The Bijection Anyway
21:03:15 <esolangs> [[Talk:Dropsort]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191675&oldid=127787 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+357) they're the same sorting algorithm with different names
21:03:41 <MarkFan8901> our thought was, would the abstract model represent how physics would work when shoved into the model its using
21:04:24 <MarkFan8901> we were thinking kinda similarly to that one carykh video where he makes a gan which gives you a sliding scale to make someone frown/smile on each end
21:04:41 <MarkFan8901> and then he 'went too far' and slid them WAY off each end to see what would happen
21:05:00 <MarkFan8901> and the faces kind of just, turned into pure colors and shapes
21:05:48 <ais523> so this is basically an extrapolation problem
21:06:20 <ais523> given data points for how two sets correspond to each other, work out what the correspondence would be for values outside the sets
21:06:33 <ais523> I don't think there's a general solution to that (although there are special cases which can be solved)
21:06:40 <MarkFan8901> like we think its kind of a natural question if you start with the idea that machine learning is intended to approximate functions which don't have a precise definition
21:06:57 <MarkFan8901> then ask what would happen if you actually *did* figure out what function you were approximating
21:07:04 <esolangs> [[Tiltedc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191676&oldid=96968 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+95) categorization, also they should make TiltedC++ next
21:07:16 <MarkFan8901> like in carykhs video, recognizing emotion from faces
21:07:55 <MarkFan8901> what would happen if you *did* have an exact function you could toy around with to see what happens 'out of bounds' relative to how real life actually works
21:09:25 <aadenboy> reminds me of a graphing calculator I made once, where it would determine pixel color based on equivalence (less, equal, greater), and it would produce weird results at positions for functions which normally aren't defined at those locations
21:09:52 <esolangs> [[Lamp]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191677&oldid=91074 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+59) categorization
21:10:32 <MarkFan8901> but with just difference instead of iteration
21:10:59 <MarkFan8901> we still need to introduce ourselves hold on :sob:
21:12:12 <esolangs> [[Imapl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191678&oldid=45334 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+98) categorization
21:13:53 <esolangs> [[Everyday]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191679&oldid=164965 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+135) categorization
21:15:03 <esolangs> [[Compose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191680&oldid=62133 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+133) some more categorization, mark as WIP
21:15:58 <esolangs> [[Alphacode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191681&oldid=166936 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+135) categorization
21:16:06 <MarkFan8901> it says we have to be a user to edit the page
21:17:36 <esolangs> [[1 8 1 8 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191682&oldid=157004 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+68) unimplemented + unknown computational class
21:18:07 <MarkFan8901> we didnt save logging in to our cookies so it just immediately logged back out when we went to the edit page
21:18:37 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191683&oldid=191658 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+91) /* 2026 - mesmerizer */
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21:21:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191684&oldid=191584 * MarkFan8901 * (+272)
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21:23:12 <aadenboy> unrelated, I've been thinking of adding a command to iterate that just prints the null byte (0x00) since the loop semantics don't allow any way to do that normally
21:23:37 <aadenboy> might go against the feel of it, though it could go in tandem with the `$` commands
21:24:18 <aadenboy> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Iterate ; I've described it as a language with only `for` loops
21:29:51 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191685&oldid=191533 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+986) /* Commands */ add some more tanks
21:37:17 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191686&oldid=191685 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+662) /* Commands */ some theme for the Sporulator branch
21:38:53 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191687&oldid=191686 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+125) /* Commands */ the amount of times I typed "at the victim's location" is definitely making the fbi suspicious
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21:52:28 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191688&oldid=191687 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1124) /* Commands */
21:53:07 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191689&oldid=191688 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-1) /* Commands */
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22:10:54 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191690&oldid=191683 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+690) /* favorite things in general */ IRC does not have the ascended pentagon (yet)
22:11:59 <esolangs> [[BackroomsTDP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191691&oldid=191634 * Miui * (+127)
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22:39:22 <esolangs> [[BackroomsTDP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191692&oldid=191691 * Miui * (+41) Add a computational class. Theorem: I dont know, nor do I think it is very well classified. I've spent years thinking about it and decided to post it to esolangs because either it simply is unknown by stratification or the creator (me) simply doesnt know.
22:46:35 <esolangs> [[BackroomsTDP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=191693&oldid=191692 * Miui * (+88) /* See also */ Added a link to an example output.
22:54:27 <int-e> Oh the Anubis discussion continued? I think Anubis got popular because it was unreasonably effective for a lot longer than anyone could reasonably expect. But it's over now.
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23:25:47 <b_jonas> MarkFan8901: that sounds like https://esolangs.org/wiki////