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01:23:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mirrors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196986&oldid=196946 * None1 * (+372) My only concern
01:37:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196987&oldid=195963 * A random guy * (+354) /* Can NANDlang, or maybe as a extension, NANDlang+ become implemented? */ new section
01:39:15 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196988&oldid=196987 * A random guy * (+0)
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01:45:04 <aadenboy> hmm, the logs are giving a 402 error
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01:54:53 <esolangs> [[Layered Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196989&oldid=196964 * Cordership * (+131) /* Example */
01:55:13 <esolangs> [[Layered Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196990&oldid=196989 * Cordership * (+1) /* Implementations */
01:55:28 <esolangs> [[Layered Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196991&oldid=196990 * Cordership * (-19) /* Implementations */
02:02:40 <esolangs> [[User talk:PkmnQ/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196992&oldid=196972 * PkmnQ * (+213)
02:04:44 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196993&oldid=196970 * PkmnQ * (+47)
02:15:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Layered Deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=196994 * Cordership * (+286) Created page with "so I created this language because yall told me not dead fish was too similar to the original deadfish also I made the interpreter in python ~~~~"
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03:20:06 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196995&oldid=196993 * PkmnQ * (+157) Brain-Flak is a weird case, but I'm forcing it into this table any way I can
03:25:43 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196996&oldid=196723 * Cordership * (+54) /* Codegolfing */
03:28:08 <esolangs> [[ORK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196997&oldid=190326 * None1 * (+5687) /* Examples */
03:28:44 <aadenboy> hm, I wonder how the home prime trick works in other languages
03:28:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish/Implementations (M-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196998&oldid=168613 * None1 * (+1987) /* OOLANG */
03:32:12 <aadenboy> 13_10 = 11_12, 211_12 = 301_10
03:32:37 <aadenboy> no way can I do this in my head haha
03:32:59 <aadenboy> `` cat /hackeso/bin/factorchain.lua
03:33:02 <HackEso> cat: /hackeso/bin/factorchain.lua: No such file or directory
03:33:13 <aadenboy> `` cat /hackenv/bin/factorchain.lua
03:33:15 <HackEso> assert(arg[1],"No number provided")t=0 n=arg[1]c=n repeat f=io.popen("factor "..n:gsub("%s",""))n=f:read("*a"):match(".- (.+)")t=t+1 c=c.." -> "..n:gsub("%s","")until not n:match(" ")print(t.." factorizations: "..(#c+#(""..t)<256 and c or c:gsub(">.+>", "> ... ->")))
03:37:13 <aadenboy> searching and ended up finding this amazing reddit post title: "are numbers prime across bases?"
03:38:25 <aadenboy> the concept of bases is great but I think obscures various things. like my thought is that it would be better perceptually to imagine numbers as sort of. amorphous things without any single base
03:38:40 <ChimeraAnova> You mean separate the value of the number from its representation?
03:39:03 <ChimeraAnova> Like how III = 3 = 10 (base 3) = 11 (base 2), it's always 3
03:39:05 <aadenboy> I like imagining them as points on a line, or that's the best my synesthesia can visualize it as
03:39:24 <aadenboy> unary would be the best base for that tbh
03:40:13 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=196999&oldid=193017 * None1 * (+27) /* Main table */ Add Deadfish in ORK
03:40:14 <ChimeraAnova> Speaking of unary, I wonder if people have tried making unary rationals like ***/**
03:40:51 <aadenboy> ChimeraAnova: https://github.com/aadenboy/Quanta/blob/main/parser.lua#L120-123
03:41:11 <aadenboy> (thing:sub(1, 1) == "-" and -1 or 1) * #thing:match("0i(1+)") + 1 / (#(thing:match("%.(1+)$") or "") + 1)
03:47:33 <aadenboy> hm, misinterpreted what you meant
03:48:14 <esolangs> [[Hexafunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197000&oldid=196948 * Cordership * (+543) /* 4-function calculator */
03:51:15 <esolangs> [[4-function calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197001&oldid=196719 * Aadenboy * (+34)
03:51:33 <esolangs> [[Basic calculator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197002 * Aadenboy * (+35) Redirected page to [[4-function calculator]]
03:51:40 <esolangs> [[Simple calculator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197003 * Aadenboy * (+35) Redirected page to [[4-function calculator]]
03:51:57 <esolangs> [[Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197004&oldid=181083 * Aadenboy * (-1)
03:53:20 <esolangs> [[Hexafunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197005&oldid=197000 * Cordership * (+189)
04:04:53 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197006&oldid=196042 * Cordership * (-7) /* Simpl */
04:04:58 <HackEso> [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
04:08:14 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197007&oldid=194612 * Cordership * (+746) /* GotoScript */
04:08:26 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197008&oldid=197007 * Cordership * (+5) /* Hexafunge */
04:11:01 <esolangs> [[FizzLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197009&oldid=186836 * Cordership * (+148) /* Examples */
04:12:07 <aadenboy> FizzBuzz doesn't require the use of modulo, right?
04:15:55 <aadenboy> `lua -e i=0print(("n Fizz n n Buzz Fizz n n Fizz Buzz n Fizz n n FizzBuzz "):repeat(7):gsub("n",load'i=i+1 return i'))
04:15:57 <HackEso> lua: (command line):1: <name> expected near 'repeat'
04:16:06 <aadenboy> `lua -e i=0 print(("n Fizz n n Buzz Fizz n n Fizz Buzz n Fizz n n FizzBuzz "):rep(7):gsub("n",load'i=i+1 return i'))
04:16:08 <HackEso> 1 Fizz 2 3 Buzz Fizz 4 5 Fizz Buzz 6 Fizz 7 8 FizzBuzz 9 Fizz 10 11 Buzz Fizz 12 13 Fizz Buzz 14 Fizz 15 16 FizzBuzz 17 Fizz 18 19 Buzz Fizz 20 21 Fizz Buzz 22 Fizz 23 24 FizzBuzz 25 Fizz 26 27 Buzz Fizz 28 29 Fizz Buzz 30 Fizz 31 32 FizzBuzz 33 Fizz 34 35 Buzz Fizz 36 37 Fizz Buzz 38 Fizz 39 40 FizzBuzz 41 Fizz 42 43 Buzz Fizz 44 45 Fizz Buzz 46 Fizz 47 48 FizzBuzz 49 Fizz 50 51 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 54 Fizz 55 56 FizzBuzz 56
04:16:58 <aadenboy> `lua -e i=0 print(("n n Fizz n Buzz Fizz n n Fizz Buzz n Fizz n n FizzBuzz "):rep(7):gsub("%S",load'i=i+1 return ...=="n"and i or ...'))
04:17:00 <HackEso> 1 2 Fizz 7 Buzz Fizz 16 17 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 31 32 FizzBuzz 41 42 Fizz 47 Buzz Fizz 56 57 Fizz Buzz 66 Fizz 71 72 FizzBuzz 81 82 Fizz 87 Buzz Fizz 96 97 Fizz Buzz 106 Fizz 111 112 FizzBuzz 121 122 Fizz 127 Buzz Fizz 136 137 Fizz Buzz 146 Fizz 151 152 FizzBuzz 161 162 Fizz 167 Buzz Fizz 176 177 Fizz Buzz 186 Fizz 191 192 FizzBuzz 201 202 Fizz 207 Buzz Fizz 216 217 Fizz Buzz 226 Fizz 231 232 FizzBuzz 241 242 Fizz 247 Buzz Fizz 256 257 Fizz Buzz 266 Fizz 271
04:17:07 <aadenboy> `lua -e i=0 print(("n n Fizz n Buzz Fizz n n Fizz Buzz n Fizz n n FizzBuzz "):rep(7):gsub("%S+",load'i=i+1 return ...=="n"and i or ...'))
04:17:09 <HackEso> 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz 101 Fizz 103 104 FizzBuzz 105
04:32:38 <esolangs> [[N-Type]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197010&oldid=176831 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-80) /* Example */
04:33:40 <esolangs> [[N-Type]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197011&oldid=197010 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Memory */
04:44:28 <esolangs> [[N-Type]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197012&oldid=197011 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* Types */
04:45:00 <esolangs> [[N-Type]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197013&oldid=197012 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1) /* Builtin functions/primitives */
04:48:12 <esolangs> [[BFFuck/3.x plans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197014&oldid=196259 * None1 * (-33) /* Features */ Revision: 1. Move Bitwise operations to standard library (since they're unimplemented in brainfuck algorithms) and replace with logic operations. 2. Add math library to plan 3. Remove raw brainfuck code injection (because to my surprise it was already impl
04:48:26 <esolangs> [[BFFuck/3.x plans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197015&oldid=197014 * None1 * (+2) /* Standard library */
04:51:53 <esolangs> [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197016&oldid=196219 * None1 * (+37) /* Syntax */ Document raw brainfuck code injection
04:58:32 <esolangs> [[BFFuck/3.x plans]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197017&oldid=197015 * None1 * (+75) /* Features */
05:01:54 <esolangs> [[BFFuck/3.x plans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197018&oldid=197017 * None1 * (+355)
05:06:08 <aadenboy> <aadenboy> hmm, the logs are giving a [502] error <- fizzie: I should probably ping you about this,
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05:08:45 <yayimheretoo> just finished reading Ais523's pirating blog post which was cool.
05:10:23 <yayimheretoo> why in hell did autocorrect turn the into thye????
05:10:35 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197019&oldid=196996 * Cordership * (+97) /* Cheating narcissist */
05:11:12 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197020&oldid=197019 * Cordership * (+8) /* Codegolfing */
05:11:34 <yayimheretoo> aadenboy: probably- but im surprised it would replace a correct with with an incorrect one.
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05:44:38 <MarkFan8901> we wonder if its possible to make a 'naive' c interpreter which goes character by character
05:44:47 <MarkFan8901> and doesnt do any lexing or parsing whatsoever
05:48:10 <yayimheretoo> could be an interesting concept but I personally dont know any C so im probably irrelevant to the discussion
05:48:48 <MarkFan8901> nah this could go for any language which doesnt have one-command-per-character syntax
05:49:10 <PkmnQ> MarkFan8901: is it allowed to assume that the program will always be valid (i.e. no unmatched brackets) or is it required to check along with interpreting?
05:49:44 <MarkFan8901> imagine a c interpreter written like a brainfuck interpreter, where the main loop is a switch case between all characters
05:50:00 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: we've had a few whiffs of ocaml
05:50:49 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: everything ive heard of it I like.
05:51:05 <yayimheretoo> it has straight up a language creation feature TMI
05:51:38 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: hopefully im remembering the correct language but I think yea
05:51:43 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197021&oldid=195451 * Cordership * (+850)
05:51:58 <MarkFan8901> thats a little less cool but understandable
05:52:18 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: we say that cuz we dont like how you build languages in racket
05:52:53 <esolangs> [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197022&oldid=197021 * Cordership * (+19) /* Implementations */
05:53:49 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: its just a lex/yacc workflow, which restricts you to traditional grammars and concepts of how semantics relate to syntax
05:53:57 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: what other language are you talking about
05:54:18 <yayimheretoo> I meant racket bbut confused it with Ocaml, lol
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05:55:25 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: thinking about it this is actually one of ralseis goals
05:56:05 <MarkFan8901> to be able to implement incredibly weird languages by being so damn flexible and easy
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05:58:22 <MarkFan8901> last we were implementing it we had a bug where it seemed like one of the commands would just get eaten by the program and not have its intended effect
05:58:51 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: thanks!!!! I dunno how General it is
05:59:14 <MarkFan8901> actually that might beg the question of what 'general' means
05:59:34 <yayimheretoo> truly. I think its generally what people think about as useful for many things
05:59:38 <MarkFan8901> it seems like ppl think it means gener*ic*
06:00:04 <MarkFan8901> but the core goal of general languages are simply ones which can be applied to a wide range of problems
06:00:25 <MarkFan8901> which could be very interesting to think about if you actually take that idea seriously and examine it up close
06:00:41 <MarkFan8901> and like try to Solve for what such a language would look like
06:00:58 <yayimheretoo> in that case I guess this probably is pretty general. but it isn't made to do things like concurrency or web accses, but those could be library'ed
06:02:06 <MarkFan8901> we think the concept is cool but the language itself is too undescriptive to really be interesting in our opinion
06:02:43 <MarkFan8901> also technically you actually describe a whole *class* of languages which have the properties you lay out whenever you do that
06:03:24 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: on the second thing you said, that was intentional and known when it was made
06:04:20 <yayimheretoo> i do kinda want to re-do a constraint language again. I personally like FWOTD and find it interesting but I have other constraints I'd want to try
06:04:33 <MarkFan8901> perhaps [[Category:Constraint Language]] should be a thing
06:05:39 <MarkFan8901> something we would wanna try is building the constraints off an automaton, but then dressing them up in typical programming language terms for the final rules
06:05:49 <MarkFan8901> and see how people would try and implement it
06:07:14 <yayimheretoo> so like a constant looping process applied to some predetermined memory
06:08:03 <MarkFan8901> imagine describing the properties of the automaton with that form of execution implicit
06:08:13 <MarkFan8901> then deliberately taking that out in the rules themselves
06:08:26 <yayimheretoo> what I said was the definition of an automaton:)
06:09:12 <MarkFan8901> but imagine trying to get the behavior of an automaton in the semantics of a language Without that process
06:10:11 <MarkFan8901> oh perhaps said automaton would be the 'solution' to the constraints
06:10:57 <yayimheretoo> I think these kinds of problems are more interesting when theres a family of languages in which the constraints apply
06:11:28 <MarkFan8901> having an actual set Solution would go against the spirit of constraint langs, but it would be really cool to see what the constrains were based off anyways
06:11:39 <MarkFan8901> also yes thinking about this in a social sense is very helpful
06:12:31 <yayimheretoo> could be its whole own thing seperate from esolangs to be fair
06:13:01 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: yea its a pretty general kind of puzzle
06:14:38 <yayimheretoo> building a constraint language off of an existing language is interesting bcuz on one hand, it kinda goes against the spirit(as you mentioned) but also makes the rules less arbitrary
06:14:58 <MarkFan8901> nono its only against the spirit if you say its The solution
06:15:24 <yayimheretoo> but if you build off a single e language you still have to make sure theres other results
06:15:50 <MarkFan8901> that ties directly into the rules being less arbitrary
06:16:22 <MarkFan8901> since you can quantify your intent and design around it
06:16:47 <MarkFan8901> like in our idea of making people fit automaton behavior in the semantics of a typical language
06:17:21 <yayimheretoo> theres also kinda the question of how precise constraints have to be.
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06:18:12 <MarkFan8901> theres also a distinction between precise and clear
06:18:23 <MarkFan8901> we think the rules should always be clear, but the precision can vary
06:19:16 <MarkFan8901> also time to get back to working on ralsei
06:19:21 <fungot> MarkFan8901: we were talking about sml, why does ( list ( quote expression)), right
06:19:54 <yayimheretoo> well ill probably stay to ramble about my ideas but I'll be off for some amount of time to get a concept at all
06:21:51 <fizzie> I don't know what was up with the logs, it'd died with a segfaul seven times in a row last night, then it hit its restart limit, but when I started it back up now it didn't die and seems to be working. :shrug:
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06:49:02 <yayimheretoo> hmmm, i kinda want to build a constraint language off of N-type
06:53:49 <yayimheretoo> one rule, would be a transformation F onto a value X, and separately onto Y, must transform into the same value, iff X and Y share a property(beyond their individual value), unless the transformation is not defined specifically for the property thats shared by X and Y, in which their results may not be equal, unless X = Y.
06:55:06 <yayimheretoo> another rule is much simpler, every value X must be able to be interpreted as a transformation from a value A to a value B.
06:57:40 <yayimheretoo> a third is: Every transformation must be readable as a value.
06:59:28 <yayimheretoo> a fourth: Every value/transformation when initially defined(by the program, this does not apply to built in values) must be defined either as a transformation or a value, and its value or transformation interpretation must be derived, not defined.
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07:04:32 <yayimheretoo> Also: There exists a number of transformations which create other transformations
07:04:32 <yayimheretoo> And last: There exists a property universal to every value/transformation
07:22:31 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197023&oldid=160586 * Qazwsxplm * (-956) Symbolization
07:23:38 -!- de67 has joined.
07:24:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197024&oldid=196988 * Dragoneater67 * (+171) /* Can NANDlang, or maybe as a extension, NANDlang+ become implemented? */
07:26:36 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197025&oldid=197023 * Qazwsxplm * (+0) TAB = Horizontal Tabulation (HT)
07:28:26 <de67> hi yayimheretoo
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07:29:52 <yayimheretoo> had quite the interesting convo with the person who just left
07:30:11 <de67> need to check logs then
07:30:38 <de67> is it MarkFan8901?
07:32:56 <de67> a lot of 2d rsolangs popped up recently
07:33:22 <de67> this is quite similar to how a lot of markup esolangs were created in late august
07:34:08 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197026&oldid=196984 * Blashyrkh * (+99) Add [[Brain-Flak]] and [[GolferNightmare]] to the table. The latter looks promising, and PkmnQ is fond of the former
07:34:51 <de67> hm, the bases thing is interesting
07:35:07 <de67> it just proves that base 1 is the best
07:36:15 <de67> how would factorchain for base1 work?
07:37:34 <de67> lemme trace 30: 111111111111111111111111111111 1111111111 1111111
07:38:01 <de67> its actually just summing the factors
07:38:12 <de67> so i think its guaranteed to keep going down
07:38:52 <de67> since if a and b are natural numbers than ab ≥ a+b
07:41:16 <de67> but its less arbitrary
07:41:43 <de67> cuz when you think of it, any base other than base1 is quite arbitrary
07:43:09 -!- MarkFan8901 has joined.
07:43:51 <de67> hi MarkFan8901
07:46:03 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: we're trying to understand the rules you put down rn
07:46:12 <esolangs> [[Cat (Language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197027&oldid=138272 * Qazwsxplm * (+6)
07:46:37 <MarkFan8901> firstly, all values are valid transformations (we'll call them functions from here on out)
07:47:44 <MarkFan8901> secondly, functions which work off a certain property must return the same result for two values which share said property
07:48:02 <MarkFan8901> i.e. f(x) = f(y) if x and y share the property f works with
07:49:05 <MarkFan8901> thirdly, functions which dont work off a certain property must have different results for different values
07:50:10 <MarkFan8901> fourth, all values and functions are defined at the start of the program, but not directly
07:50:36 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: ill read all yo messages in a sec but I acknowledge!
07:50:49 <yayimheretoo> I used transformations to just be a bit more general
07:51:10 <MarkFan8901> using the word function makes some things obvious
07:51:47 <MarkFan8901> like the fact all values are transformations and vice versa tells us this is a lambda calculus of some sort
07:52:21 <MarkFan8901> also the fact that all values and functions are defined at the start of the program feels typical for programming in lambdas
07:52:41 <MarkFan8901> the derived thing is somewhat interesting though
07:53:10 <yayimheretoo> yep!! again, just wanted to be as general as possible. also, they dont have to be defined at the start of the program, could be anywhere. its just that you have to define it as either a value or a function, and the "other side" must be derived
07:53:41 <MarkFan8901> we thought the definitions of each had to be derived from the rules you put down
07:53:46 <MarkFan8901> so you couldnt just directly define a value or function
07:54:00 <MarkFan8901> yeah that collapses it way further down into lambda calculus
07:54:14 <yayimheretoo> also, this doesn't mean it has to be possible to define as a value, or possible to define as a function. you could further restrict it to just do one. N-type does this, you can only define its function form lol.
07:54:19 <de67> MarkFan8901: btw, there was some discussion around fwotd back in april
07:54:57 <fungot> yayimheretoo: good enough. kiddy grade on the other
07:55:24 <de67> im nonfunctional
07:55:54 <de67> MarkFan8901: cuz you use the stupid web client
07:56:31 <de67> yayimheretoo: yuh, i do a lot of imperative things cuz its very simple
07:56:33 <MarkFan8901> hm we wonder what a language with a general recursive paradigm would look like
07:56:38 <de67> you do this then do that
07:57:41 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: as in like, one which tried to make generalizations over them and make it usable for general programming
07:57:48 <MarkFan8901> like what haskell does with lambda calculus
07:58:02 <MarkFan8901> or what (arguably) algol-likes do with turing machines
07:58:23 <MarkFan8901> are there any languages which generalize over how specifically turing machines work?
07:58:33 <yayimheretoo> imma Haskell yo ass *makes you a GPL based off of your simple structure*
07:58:42 <de67> hm, could declarative paradigm be generalized?
07:58:43 <MarkFan8901> like not machines with ram and registers like with normal computers
07:58:44 <PkmnQ> actually, now i'm wondering if https://esolanging.wiki/wiki/User:PkmnQ/Reinterpretable would count as a (user-edited) constraintlang
07:59:02 <PkmnQ> de67: would Prolog count?
07:59:04 <de67> PkmnQ: probably
07:59:23 <de67> isnt haskell functional?
07:59:43 <yayimheretoo> the constraints are the programs, and it slowly gets more restricted by user edits
08:00:13 <de67> MarkFan8901: i think theres a edolang wiki page abt it
08:00:14 <MarkFan8901> oh burn is an accidental constraint language
08:00:16 <de67> lemme search it up
08:00:36 <de67> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Declarative_paradigm
08:00:43 <yayimheretoo> finally the people dont have to fake forgetting something
08:00:55 <PkmnQ> MarkFan8901: yeah the reason i haven't looked into the increasing possibility more is because i'm fairly sure i'm gonna be stumbling onto a family of CAs rather than just one
08:01:39 <de67> yayimheretoo: how do you even forget an esolang?
08:02:01 <yayimheretoo> PkmnQ: holy shit I just forgot it's YOU who did the FWOTD! thanks!
08:02:09 <de67> MarkFan8901: to the paradigm??
08:02:13 <MarkFan8901> de67: this is a completely different definition of declarative than what we had in mind
08:03:03 <de67> im confused on whats going on, there are multiple ongoing conversations in one channel
08:03:05 <PkmnQ> MarkFan8901: oh well for Burn I mostly considered the possibility that cells only ever decrease
08:03:44 <yayimheretoo> de67: multi-conversation in the single channel
08:03:46 <MarkFan8901> PkmnQ: what increasing possibility are you referring to
08:03:54 <de67> yayimhere: btw, what did you intend to mean by skill issue?
08:04:15 <yayimheretoo> de67: "how do you even forget an esolang" "skill issue"
08:04:16 <de67> MarkFan8901: i think hes referring to burn
08:04:22 <PkmnQ> MarkFan8901: well one of the speculated pieces of information for Burn is "I think the irreversibility was implemented via requiring each colour channel of each cell to only ever decrease (or maybe only ever increase, but decreasing seems more likely)."
08:04:40 <de67> yayimheretoo: does that mean bad memory? or just forgetting to save a file with all your notes?
08:05:14 <PkmnQ> i went with decreasing since it was a lot more constrained than increasing, if i ever get to investigate increasing i think there'll be a whole family of possible Burns rather than one
08:05:40 <de67> yayimheretoo: thats why i oftentimes write txt files with all the notes on them, and then delete them once i get everything sorted out
08:06:07 <yayimheretoo> de67: yea that makes sense. I just change it so often in my head a textfile is bothersome cuz I have to update all the time
08:06:11 <MarkFan8901> increasing burn has the possibility of becoming a constraint lang
08:06:50 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:07:19 <MarkFan8901> <MarkFan8901: this is a completely different definition of declarative than what we had in mind>: the issue with making a language out of that definition of declarative programming is that at some point you need to quantify the programmers intent
08:07:29 <MarkFan8901> which. isnt possible without some sort of artificial intelligence
08:09:45 <MarkFan8901> like, the optimal declarative language would look something like `fac(n) {0 -> 1, 1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 6, 4 -> 24, 5 -> 120, 6 -> 720, ...}`
08:10:16 <MarkFan8901> zero control over how the function actually works internally, just what its supposed to do
08:10:54 <MarkFan8901> even with our example, at some point you would have to put those functions together to make the program
08:11:11 <MarkFan8901> which would be controlling the flow of the program
08:12:35 <MarkFan8901> actually prolog does seem like a kind of good stepping stone for making such a language like that
08:13:00 <MarkFan8901> cuz its rules *are* defining your intent, in a pretty pure sense
08:13:09 <MarkFan8901> if your intent can be written out logically, at least
08:13:21 <MarkFan8901> it also works cuz logic solvers Are a kind of ai
08:14:05 <MarkFan8901> since they can formalize human knowledge and automate it
08:14:24 <MarkFan8901> 'human knowledge' here being the part of our brains that do logic
08:17:02 <MarkFan8901> actually scratch our original example, the optimal declarative language would just be plain natural language
08:18:00 <MarkFan8901> perhaps llms can work as (shitty) transpilers between natural language and programming languages
08:19:01 <MarkFan8901> so To avoid this logical extreme we have a different definition of declarative
08:19:09 <MarkFan8901> which also seems to fit a lot of languages which get called declarative too
08:19:52 <MarkFan8901> instead, having a declarative paradigm means that you can deduce what a program in your language is just by specifying your intent more and more
08:20:38 <MarkFan8901> we've brought this up before but there's a pretty simple paper about the theoretical combinator J, where JJ -> K and J(JJ) -> S
08:21:23 <MarkFan8901> and it does this by deducing what the properties of such a combinator would be
08:21:39 <MarkFan8901> until the actual combinator just plops right into their hand
08:21:40 <yayimheretoo> 1. Every Property has a corresponding value/transform, and every value/transform has a corresponding property. For ease of use, P(X) is the property which corresponds to X.
08:21:40 <yayimheretoo> 2. There must exist the following builtin values/transforms:
08:21:41 <yayimheretoo> A value/transform M which turns values of the universal property into itself.
08:21:41 <yayimheretoo> A value/transform l which takes in a value X and creates a transform which transform everything with the property P(X) into X.
08:21:42 <yayimheretoo> A value/transform which takes in a value X, and creates a transform which makes values of P(M) into l(X)
08:21:42 <yayimheretoo> 3. There exists transforms U which turn a value/transform into a transform F, where U never calls any values C that are equal to F.
08:21:43 <yayimheretoo> 4. the above transforms act upon every property which has a single value(i.e the property which refers to the value that represents that property)
08:22:52 <MarkFan8901> we realized that that same thing is actually kind of what type programming is like in haskell
08:23:41 <MarkFan8901> you interrogate what you wanna implement really hard until the program just naturally falls out from it
08:24:24 <yayimheretoo> maybe theres a way you can do that to a set of constraints for a constraint language
08:24:56 <MarkFan8901> actually wait arent they just the same thing
08:25:05 <MarkFan8901> solving for that combinator J was a constraint problem
08:25:15 <MarkFan8901> where the constraints are that JJ -> K and J(JJ) -> S
08:26:10 <MarkFan8901> anyways we're gonna filter the rules you typed through our brain rq
08:28:58 <PkmnQ> just remembered https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tableaux
08:36:24 <MarkFan8901> 1. every type has a function, and every function has a type. x' swaps a type/function x to its corresponding function/type respectively
08:36:25 <MarkFan8901> 2. there's a universal property (not sure what that means tho)
08:36:25 <MarkFan8901> 3. there's a built in identity function M for the universal property
08:36:26 <MarkFan8901> 4. there's a built in function I(x) which makes a function λ where x -> x''
08:36:26 <MarkFan8901> 5. there's a built in function *(x) which makes a function λ where M' -> I(x)
08:36:27 <MarkFan8901> 6. there's a built in function U which (ok we dont know what this does)
08:38:01 <MarkFan8901> does that mean the property every value has
08:39:30 <yayimheretoo> theres a number of transforms (let just call one U). U(x) returns some function λ based on x. When U is executed, it never calls any function F thats equal to λ.
08:41:49 <yayimheretoo> no, whenever U returns λ, we assume U never called a function λ. Basically, it's a kinda roundabout way to explain that U is never a constant function
08:42:24 <yayimheretoo> and also, the rule I said earlier, thaat if X and Y share a property and F acts on that property, then F(X) = F(Y)? well with U...
08:42:49 <yayimheretoo> U always acts on the property thats unique to that single value, so if U(X) = U(Y), X should equal Y
08:45:02 <MarkFan8901> does the universal type also correspond to some function
08:45:20 <yayimheretoo> nono, U's result is just never set to be equal because X and Y share a property.
08:45:34 <yayimheretoo> The result could be equal for other reasons, but never because of property
08:45:50 <yayimheretoo> it still obeys the property law though, because every object has a property unique to it
08:46:47 <MarkFan8901> fsr we thought it meant the universal type
08:48:59 -!- de67 has joined.
08:49:05 <yayimheretoo> this is very confusing llmao. cant wait to write it down and try to find a solution myself
08:49:22 <de67> hi guys im back
08:49:29 <yayimheretoo> im thinking smth Thue like( theres a reason I said transform and not just function;) )
08:49:37 <de67> whats going on
08:49:47 <MarkFan8901> we're talking about yayimheretoos new constraint language
08:49:57 <MarkFan8901> also we got out the thoughts we wanted to on the declarative thingy we were talking about earlier
08:50:14 <MarkFan8901> u should read it.......................................................................................
08:50:19 <yayimheretoo> turns out constraint languages and declarative paradigms are the same /j
08:51:32 <de67> is esolangs.org down?
08:51:48 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: no I was just joking on the connection
08:52:08 <yayimheretoo> but sometimes it renders in raw text without any CSS or anything
08:52:18 <de67> oh so its under heavy load
08:52:26 <de67> lemme check esolanging wiki too
08:52:50 <de67> wow esolanging wiki is healthy
08:53:14 <yayimheretoo> sounds like a great home for constraint languages tbh
08:53:49 <de67> yayimheretoo: i actually did nothing server side for past few days, i guess stupid ai crawlers didnt find my wiki yet
08:54:27 <yayimheretoo> was about to do a blind leading blind reference but it didn't fit
08:54:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BlueHaunter * New user account
08:55:08 <de67> yayimheretoo: there are some companies and orgs that are scanning the entire ipv4 address space for new sevrers
08:55:18 <MarkFan8901> 2. each unique function has a unique type, and vice versa. (notation: x' swaps a type/function x to its corresponding function/type)
08:55:18 <MarkFan8901> 3. there's a built in identity function M for functions of the universal property
08:55:19 <MarkFan8901> 4. there's a built in function I(x) which makes a function λ where x -> x''
08:55:19 <MarkFan8901> 5. there's a built in function *(x) which makes a function λ where M' -> I(x)
08:55:19 <de67> so idk whats stopping them
08:55:20 <MarkFan8901> 6. there's a built in function U which makes a function λ where λ wasn't called by U
08:55:31 <de67> its alsp indexed on google
08:55:41 <de67> if you search esolanging wiki on google youll find it
08:56:00 <de67> the cralwer protection measures are almost the same as in esolang wiki
08:56:09 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: theres still sum misunderstandings let me reword a bit so it makes sense
08:58:12 <yayimheretoo> 1. Every function is of the type v, the universal type.
08:58:12 <yayimheretoo> 2. each function has a corresponding type and each type has a corresponding function(x' saps between type and function)
08:58:13 <yayimheretoo> 3. theres a builtin function M for v(i.e every value with the type v will come out with the same value), where the result is M
08:58:57 <yayimheretoo> 4. theres a builtin I(x) which produces a function λ where it takes a value of type x' and produces x
09:00:30 <MarkFan8901> since it says every function has *a* type, implying singular, but they already have the universal type
09:01:48 <yayimheretoo> 5. theres a builtin *(x) which makes a function λ which turns values of M' into I(x)
09:04:29 <MarkFan8901> perhaps U is too complicated in its current state
09:04:34 <MarkFan8901> ur taking quite a bit of time trying to put it intuitively
09:05:39 <de67> there are so many functions
09:05:43 <MarkFan8901> maybe just saying U isnt a constant function would be better
09:05:55 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901 yep. its hard to abstract for whatever reasoon
09:07:10 <yayimheretoo> 6. (pretty much forget everything I said about it before lol) theres a CLASS(distinct from type, its not smth the program reads, its not a property). It takes in a value X, and creates a function where somewhere in its definition, a value is replaced with X. Even though the functions in this CLASS practically ignore type, technically under the
09:07:11 <yayimheretoo> hood, they rely on the type which is singular for X.
09:08:16 <MarkFan8901> maybe classes should be defined beforehand
09:09:45 <yayimheretoo> Class: A class is a set of functions/values, that is literally jsut used to describe the rules. its not actually used by the program as a value or anything like that
09:10:37 <MarkFan8901> maybe this could be defined with a function that returns a function that returns a function
09:11:38 <MarkFan8901> maybe you should try splitting this into multiple rules
09:12:17 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: it is, because for whatever reason its rlly hard to abstract and I DONT KNOW WHY!
09:14:14 <MarkFan8901> maybe have one function which deals with the class shenanigans, then define U with it
09:18:29 <yayimheretoo> A is *some*(i.e a random one not anything specific) "template" for a function. This means it had somewhere where a value is missing
09:18:59 <yayimheretoo> now in this class of functions, every function F takes in a value X, and inserts it into A, and returns the result of x in A
09:20:16 <yayimheretoo> well, every function operators "for" some amount of types, and If X and Y both are in one of those types the function operators "for" F(X) would be equal to F(Y). However, every function in this class acts for every single 1(X) of every single X, so it remains unique across types
09:20:33 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197028&oldid=196618 * Cordership * (+27) /* commands */
09:20:56 <MarkFan8901> oh so 1(X) is a workaround to not break the other constraints
09:21:52 <yayimheretoo> well I dunno if its a problem but it is a workaround to preserve uniqueness
09:22:27 <MarkFan8901> maybe you could just change how the function works
09:22:28 <yayimheretoo> other than to define this class as a whole different like system of functions
09:22:43 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197029&oldid=197028 * Cordership * (+19)
09:22:59 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: then it stops being connected to the original language to a large extent
09:23:19 <MarkFan8901> that implies the rest of the constraints are filler
09:23:19 <yayimheretoo> also U isn't a builtin I ws using it to represent some arbitrary function in the class
09:23:26 <esolangs> [[Dolfins grace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197030&oldid=197029 * Cordership * (-18) /* commands */
09:23:41 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: not really they set up a heavy part of how the language operates
09:24:04 <yayimheretoo> its just if this class of functions disappear then one half of the language is gone
09:24:16 <yayimheretoo> because most of the rules govern BOTH kinds of functions
09:24:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197031&oldid=196985 * BlueHaunter * (+142)
09:25:27 <MarkFan8901> like, define the class first in the constraints, then the rest of the language
09:25:44 <yayimheretoo> I mean the rule that the functions have to like base uniqueness of of types right?
09:25:53 <yayimheretoo> that could just be constrained to one part of the language
09:26:27 <MarkFan8901> that implies multiple 'parts' of the language
09:27:14 <MarkFan8901> which would supercede the current definition which speaks in terms of fundamentals
09:28:11 <MarkFan8901> we meant it would supercede the attitude the current constraints have right now
09:28:27 <MarkFan8901> which speak on the other 'part' of the language as if its the only one
09:29:53 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197032 * BlueHaunter * (+9453) Ceremonial 4 ("ABYSS" edition) is a ritualistic, Turing-complete esolang that features letter-balance constraints, politeness quotas (pls), depth-based scope rules, triple checksums, ternary numbers, dynamic mood shifts, memory decay, and a Tkinter graphics engine.
09:30:44 <yayimheretoo> ok we can replace that rule we would have to change:
09:30:44 <yayimheretoo> 1. Every function must either define uniqueness input to input, or type to type.
09:30:45 <yayimheretoo> This means a function F which od the first, F(X) = F(Y) iff X = Y.
09:30:45 <yayimheretoo> And every function G which does the second, F(X) = F(Y) iff X and Y are both in the same type.
09:31:00 <yayimheretoo> now we can put this more elegant, if we just say ≈ is "they have equal types"
09:31:40 <MarkFan8901> 1. every function must either work on value or type
09:31:46 <yayimheretoo> 1. Every function must either define uniqueness input to input, or type to type.
09:31:47 <yayimheretoo> This means a function F which od the first, F(X) = F(Y) iff X = Y.
09:31:47 <yayimheretoo> And every function G which does the second, F(X) = F(Y) iff X ≈ Y
09:34:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197033&oldid=197031 * BlueHaunter * (+41)
09:34:55 <yayimheretoo> 1. Every function determines its output either based on the inputted value, or the inputted values type
09:35:53 <MarkFan8901> 1. for all functions f(x), f either works on x or x'
09:38:26 <MarkFan8901> describe how U works with this newfound terminology
09:38:49 <MarkFan8901> didnt you say that was like half the language
09:39:09 <yayimheretoo> U was meant to represent every function that acted like that, like I(x) or *(x)
09:39:43 <MarkFan8901> this is actually a very good learning point though
09:39:51 <MarkFan8901> both for designing and solving constraint langs
09:40:10 <yayimheretoo> first time its rlly been done with the intent of being a constraintlang
09:40:58 <yayimheretoo> constraintlang is a bad name I think. Conlang doesn't work thoigh
09:41:14 <MarkFan8901> wait how come constraint lang is a bad name
09:41:31 <yayimheretoo> it would be nive with an additional term thats shorted
09:42:44 <MarkFan8901> perhaps something could be done with set construction
09:43:20 <yayimheretoo> so actually set construction = constraint lang = declarative paradigm
09:43:48 <MarkFan8901> you do realize constraint programming is a delcarative paradigm right
09:44:46 <MarkFan8901> where its like "jajaja (spanish laughter)" "h*" "oh sorry, jhjhjh"
09:45:49 <MarkFan8901> <MarkFan8901: perhaps something could be done with set construction>: since the constraints could be considered the set constructors for the set of all languages that fit t
09:46:36 <yayimheretoo> thats an interesting connection too between a logic solver(as in PROLOG) and a set constructor(AS in a constraintlang)
09:50:12 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * BlueHaunter * uploaded "[[File:Ceremonialicon.png]]": the icon for ceremonial
09:50:21 <MarkFan8901> hm what if we put all the constraints together now
09:50:44 <MarkFan8901> we elect to have one that says smth like "there exists 'entities' which are both values and transformations"
09:50:54 <MarkFan8901> so you dont have to say values/tranformations all the time
09:51:27 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197035&oldid=197032 * BlueHaunter * (+74)
09:51:45 <yayimheretoo> ok but, I wonder how you can translate LANGUAGE constraints to say, LOGIC constraints
09:52:14 <MarkFan8901> oh we were actually thinking about putting all the rules you put in fancy formal logic notation
09:52:25 <yayimheretoo> and also. constraint languages could be described by aa Meta-declarative language
09:53:04 <MarkFan8901> wawa we dont mean we wanted you to do that
09:53:40 <yayimheretoo> i dont wanna set you to too much work over my little stupids
09:53:59 <MarkFan8901> ya we'll only do the notation for the ones which we can do elegantly
09:54:18 <yayimheretoo> also funny thing is a constraint language is just a very very ambiguous language
09:54:37 <MarkFan8901> its like ambiguous syntax but semantics instead
09:54:38 <yayimheretoo> so ambigous you could create whole different LANGUAGES by reading the statements differently
09:54:45 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197036&oldid=197035 * BlueHaunter * (-309) Ceremonial 4 ("ABYSS" edition) is a ritualistic, Turing-complete esolang that features letter-balance constraints, politeness quotas (pls), depth-based scope rules, triple checksums, ternary numbers, dynamic mood shifts, memory decay, and a Tkinter graphics engine.
09:55:05 <yayimheretoo> or in this case, filling in specific stuff in the ambiguous "holes" of the lang
09:55:27 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197037&oldid=197036 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+138) meow (ha get it because categorization -> cat and cats meow? not funny didn't laugh) also hey graphical output!
09:56:23 <yayimheretoo> "its like ambiguous syntax but semantics instead".... now im thinking, if those are equivalent, a syntax acts as a whole language, if complex enough?
09:57:08 <MarkFan8901> grammars are programming languages which turn a string of tokens into a corresponding tree
09:57:53 <MarkFan8901> if you made a language whose syntax was unrestricted, that would make it turing complete
09:57:54 <yayimheretoo> constraint languages = ambiguous grammars = set construction = declarative paradigm
09:58:53 <yayimheretoo> the only thin here is the =. We could try, some day, at some point, to try and find the translation between the thingd
09:58:56 <MarkFan8901> the general theme of "find solutions from vague rules" has tons of reach in computer science
09:59:32 <yayimheretoo> I wonder if theres a connection here to the "logic system = type system"
09:59:36 <MarkFan8901> we'd say constraint languages, ambiguous grammars, and set construction are all examples of declarative programming
09:59:56 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: that feels like it already exists
10:00:07 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197038&oldid=197037 * Dragoneater67 * (+29) /* Printing hello world in Ceremonial */ tag slop
10:00:07 <MarkFan8901> but if it doesnt, we think a good place to start would be with modal logic
10:00:37 <yayimheretoo> no type system = logic exists, but, does constraint language = type system or smth like that exist
10:03:27 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: it would probably imply a type system in the metalanguage describing it
10:03:49 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197039&oldid=197038 * BlueHaunter * (+57) Ceremonial 4 ("ABYSS" edition) is a ritualistic, Turing-complete esolang that features letter-balance constraints, politeness quotas (pls), depth-based scope rules, triple checksums, ternary numbers, dynamic mood shifts, memory decay, and a Tkinter graphics engine.
10:04:20 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197040&oldid=196983 * Blashyrkh * (+2982) /* Lazy K */ 2523 bytes [[Quine]]
10:04:20 <MarkFan8901> Also we feel like that meta-declarative language could just be defined via algebraic constraints
10:04:43 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197041&oldid=197039 * Dragoneater67 * (-57) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197039|197039]] by [[Special:Contributions/BlueHaunter|BlueHaunter]] ([[User talk:BlueHaunter|talk]]) the page was obviously writren by an llm
10:04:51 <MarkFan8901> perhaps it would be a language which abstracts over algebra
10:05:12 <yayimheretoo> also, weird language thing, we've been using the term constraint language to refer to te thing rules themselves- whats the resulting language called? a solved language?
10:05:57 <MarkFan8901> ye solution language sounds like the best term
10:05:58 <yayimheretoo> the solution or solved language provides more clear distinction
10:06:19 <MarkFan8901> we prefer solution cuz solved sounds like the language itself was solved
10:06:44 <de67> i also prefer solution
10:06:48 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197042&oldid=197026 * Blashyrkh * (+38) Shorter [[Quine]] @ [[Lazy K]] (2644 > 2523)
10:07:13 <MarkFan8901> <MarkFan8901: perhaps it would be a language which abstracts over algebra>: like how haskell abstracts over lambda calculus
10:07:41 <MarkFan8901> we wonder if such a language could be made turing complete to define uncomputable languages
10:08:03 <MarkFan8901> maybe some weird arithmetical hierarchy shenanigans could be roped into this
10:08:51 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197043&oldid=197041 * BlueHaunter * (-851) Ceremonial 4 ("ABYSS" edition) is a ritualistic, Turing-complete esolang that features letter-balance constraints, politeness quotas (pls), depth-based scope rules, triple checksums, ternary numbers, dynamic mood shifts, memory decay, and a Tkinter graphics engine.
10:08:59 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197044&oldid=196243 * Blashyrkh * (-233) /* Lazy K */ Shorter version (2644 > 2523)
10:10:10 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197045&oldid=197043 * BlueHaunter * (+4)
10:10:41 <yayimheretoo> like its rare I'll have SO much fun messing with esolang stuff
10:10:53 <yayimheretoo> to think this discussion spawned of fucking FWOTD
10:11:08 <MarkFan8901> sign that you can grow your esolanging skills
10:11:28 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197046&oldid=197045 * Dragoneater67 * (-46)
10:11:40 <yayimheretoo> its not that I dont have fun, its just more fun with other people
10:11:59 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: something weird about it, when we stop judging languages for being low effort we suddenly see way more things that can be done with any ideas put in front of us
10:12:14 <MarkFan8901> theres a whole discussion between us and ais and someone else talking about fucking constant languages of all things
10:12:33 <MarkFan8901> supposedly the epitome of low effort got us talking about like, cyclic quines
10:12:45 <MarkFan8901> a program a which outputs program b, which outputs program a again
10:12:48 <yayimheretoo> I think part of it might be what seems simple to humans isn't simple to a machine?
10:12:53 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197047&oldid=197046 * BlueHaunter * (-5)
10:12:58 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197048&oldid=197047 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+138) recategorize
10:13:22 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197049&oldid=197048 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+5) link to your userpage unless you have your own mainspace page
10:13:37 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: ye that feels like a big part of it
10:13:53 <MarkFan8901> translating your own thoughts and feelings into such a different system is weird and satisfying when you do it right
10:14:05 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197050&oldid=197049 * BlueHaunter * (+12)
10:14:36 <MarkFan8901> an esolang based off a third system which is distinct from human thought and computer languages
10:14:55 <MarkFan8901> so you would have to put considerable work to describe it in either
10:15:08 <MarkFan8901> heh the concept of 'implementing' an idea in language
10:15:36 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197051&oldid=197050 * Dragoneater67 * (+46)
10:16:39 <MarkFan8901> what if you type out the new constraints for that language again
10:17:16 <yayimheretoo> I played my first music gig yesterday and know I ave done quite a bit of thinking on top of that, I need to chill out lol
10:17:50 <fungot> MarkFan8901: which means i disclaim all interest in controlling what people do unless they bother me
10:18:11 <MarkFan8901> fsr we assumed you were in the same time zone as us
10:19:18 <MarkFan8901> we were gonna continue that but we hesitated
10:19:58 <de67> hwat just happen
10:20:07 <de67> theres tons of spam in #esolanging
10:20:21 <de67> and theres murder going on in here
10:20:31 <de67> ChimeraAnova: its ok
10:20:38 <de67> yayimheretoo got murdered in america
10:20:57 <MarkFan8901> it was self defense actually /tongueincheek
10:21:32 <MarkFan8901> fungot: how much se do you make on average
10:21:32 <fungot> MarkFan8901: users other than me has a copy of scheme.cgi and call it
10:21:35 <yayimheretoo> Markfan has their tounge so far inside their cheeck
10:21:54 <fungot> yayimheretoo: yes ok for larceny fnord from fnord
10:22:03 <fungot> MarkFan8901: no. my mom's not here silly. and she's scared of snow.
10:22:24 <de67> fungor's mom is scared of snow?
10:22:40 <yayimheretoo> I mean fungot's mom is probably esolangs to be fair
10:22:40 <fungot> yayimheretoo: even nome. nome thinks it is
10:22:47 <MarkFan8901> esolangs: rawr :3 xd rawrr *nuzzles u* >w<
10:22:54 <esolangs> MarkFan8901: The script would replace 'rawr' with 'a:3', 'xd' with 'f', 'rawrr' with 'a:3', '*nuzzles' with 'l', 'u*' with 't', and '>w<' with ' '. The resulting batch file would contain the modified text, effectively replacing the specified words and emotes with their corresponding replacements. The script then executes this modified batch file, which displays...
10:22:56 <de67> what should we do regarding thue?
10:23:05 <de67> its been featyred for years now
10:23:25 <PkmnQ> de67: i think i've seen three different attempts at replacing it
10:23:28 <yayimheretoo> the second the constraint language is done, it goes up there /j
10:23:29 <PkmnQ> none have come to fruition
10:23:34 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197052&oldid=197040 * Blashyrkh * (+359) /* 2523 bytes */ Few more info
10:23:40 <fungot> yayimheretoo: you mean he? :) what implementation do you use escaped symbols instead of strings.
10:24:02 <de67> i think that we should all go to [[Esolang talk: Featured languages]] and express our opinions
10:24:09 <PkmnQ> anyway as for candidates
10:24:09 <PkmnQ> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
10:24:34 <MarkFan8901> wait has befunge not been a featured language yet?
10:24:54 <yayimheretoo> "Languages with more novel concepts and themes are given preference. That is, languages with obscure paradigms are given preference to those that have many siblings and, for example, two stack-based languages are unlikely to be featured consecutively." this requirement applies to constraint languages
10:25:56 <MarkFan8901> brainfuck, malbolge, and deadfish are all esolang greatest hits
10:26:32 <de67> id rather have something obscure featured
10:26:35 <ChimeraAnova> The fact that Befunge hasn't been featured is hard to believe since it was (one of) the first 2d languages
10:26:42 <de67> something like [[Three Star Programmer]]
10:27:27 <MarkFan8901> maybe there should be like a stack of featured languages to come up
10:27:38 <MarkFan8901> so we dont run out and have some huge gap like this for so long
10:28:13 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo do that teleporting thing again
10:28:34 <PkmnQ> hmm i wonder if i should keep my nomination on FALSE or try and find something else
10:28:39 <de67> MarkFan8901: sounds like something a serial killer would say
10:29:01 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: it only works if im told im in another timezones
10:29:04 <MarkFan8901> (has a shirt that says "SERIAL KILLER" on it)
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10:29:55 <de67> i havent made esolangs in a long time (3 days)
10:30:29 <de67> i just realize
10:30:38 <de67> youre timezone is gmt+2
10:31:22 <PkmnQ> yayimheretoo, de67, MarkFan8901: how many of you know of Brain-Flak? i used to think it was well-known but i'm realizing i don't actually know
10:31:33 <de67> ive heard of it
10:31:42 <MarkFan8901> but it got lost in the sea of brain farces
10:32:23 <PkmnQ> how much do you know about it? i'm considering possibly replacing my nomination of FALSE with it
10:32:39 <MarkFan8901> we basically know next to nothing about it
10:32:42 <de67> PkmnQ: i know that it exists
10:33:22 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197053&oldid=197051 * BlueHaunter * (+0)
10:33:24 <de67> its quite interesting that 3 of ais523's esolangs are currently nominated
10:33:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JustSomeDude * New user account
10:33:47 <MarkFan8901> yea ais consistently makes high quality langs
10:34:21 <de67> maybe i should get better at consistency
10:34:34 <de67> cuz currently the quality of what i make varies
10:34:47 <de67> its 2 crappy esolangs per 1 good esolang or so
10:35:31 <yayimheretoo> ais is also just like straight up a mathematician sooooo
10:36:01 <MarkFan8901> and also toys heavily with video game stuff
10:36:07 <de67> i think ais523 sometimes goes by the name Alex Smith
10:36:09 <MarkFan8901> we actually saw his name in a video about smb3 arbitrary code execution
10:36:13 <de67> atleast on nethack4.org
10:36:45 <de67> yayimheretoo: might be a pseduonym
10:36:47 <yayimheretoo> he just has knowledge of other programming stuff than esolanging
10:37:24 <MarkFan8901> or more accurately, he lets himself use more points of references
10:37:35 <de67> most of the people on this wiki have a life outside of esolanging
10:38:32 <de67> why would a non programmer be here?
10:38:33 <MarkFan8901> however we think perhaps thats not necessary to achieve ais' creativity
10:38:52 <de67> iirc keymarker is not a programmer
10:38:59 <de67> hes still good at esolanging
10:39:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197054&oldid=197033 * JustSomeDude * (+252) /* Introductions */
10:39:18 <de67> who tf is Bone1
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10:40:04 <de67> yayimheretoo: none of us spoke
10:40:22 <de67> we were all just clicking buttons to compose sentences out of glyphs
10:40:42 <de67> and sending them using radio waves
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10:42:14 <PkmnQ> hmm bad timing but I just now remembered Incident
10:43:19 <de67> what incident?
10:43:24 <de67> oh is that an esolang?
10:44:41 <PkmnQ> something about it seems novel enough to be featured, I don't think I understand it well enough to be able to write the paragraph for it though, so I'll stick with Brain-Flak as my nomination for now
10:46:44 <de67> incident is that pattern based esolang
10:46:54 <de67> it looka cool atleast
10:47:20 <de67> i kinda like pattern based esolangs
10:47:36 <de67> but imagine how cool a pattern based metalanguage would be
10:48:03 <de67> itd be even cooler if the source code was nontextual
10:48:41 <PkmnQ> yeah the pattern-based thing is pretty novel on its own, but even beyond that it's interesting to me even only considering the semantics without the syntax
10:53:14 <esolangs> [[User:JustSomeDude]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197055 * JustSomeDude * (+23) Created page with "JustSomeDude user page."
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11:08:06 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197056&oldid=197053 * BlueHaunter * (-12)
11:11:14 <esolangs> [[Oceanfunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197057&oldid=196718 * Cordership * (+0) /* Syntax */
11:15:14 <esolangs> [[2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197058&oldid=194996 * Cordership * (+14)
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12:05:44 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197059&oldid=197056 * BlueHaunter * (+95)
12:08:05 <esolangs> [[Minez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197060&oldid=195866 * * (+0) Broken category fixed.
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12:19:27 <esolangs> [[CRAZYLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197061&oldid=192845 * GraysonLaux * (+104)
12:27:52 <ChimeraAnova> ^echo xx-90-6202 no deusne soahc neht dna "kramose" dias enoemoS
12:27:52 <fungot> xx-90-6202 no deusne soahc neht dna "kramose" dias enoemoS xx-90-6202 no deusne soahc neht dna "kramose" dias enoemoS
12:32:37 <de67> this is #esolangs btw
12:56:35 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197062&oldid=197059 * BlueHaunter * (+25406)
13:00:02 <ChimeraAnova> 25406 bytes for syntax highlighting span tags is insane tbh
13:00:07 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197063&oldid=197062 * Dragoneater67 * (+2) /* Printing hello world in Ceremonial */
13:00:27 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197064&oldid=197063 * Dragoneater67 * (+5) /* Drawing a Shape in Ceremonial (graphics test + drawing a window) */
13:00:34 <ChimeraAnova> Syntax highlighting is mesmerizing tho so I think there should be an HTML syntax highlighting golfing tool
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13:04:02 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197065&oldid=196995 * PkmnQ * (+179)
13:11:16 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197066&oldid=197064 * BlueHaunter * (-7)
13:13:04 <esolangs> [[Dianoia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197067&oldid=184195 * * (+0) Broken link fixed.
13:16:05 <esolangs> [[Push-down automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197068&oldid=21146 * * (+21) Broken link fixed.
13:17:39 <esolangs> [[Assembly++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197069&oldid=192453 * * (+0) Broken category fixed.
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13:40:00 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197070&oldid=197052 * Blashyrkh * (+347) /* Lazy K Quine */ Improve explanation
13:53:10 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197071&oldid=197024 * A random guy * (+358)
14:00:08 <esolangs> [[User:A random guy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197072&oldid=195923 * A random guy * (+222)
14:00:55 <esolangs> [[User:A random guy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197073&oldid=197072 * A random guy * (+12)
14:02:18 <esolangs> [[User:A random guy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197074&oldid=197073 * A random guy * (+62)
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14:20:06 <esolangs> [[User talk:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197075&oldid=197071 * Dragoneater67 * (+207) /* Can NANDlang, or maybe as a extension, NANDlang+ become implemented? */
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14:37:48 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197076&oldid=197066 * Dragoneater67 * (+7) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197066|197066]] by [[Special:Contributions/BlueHaunter|BlueHaunter]] ([[User talk:BlueHaunter|talk]]) undo vandalism
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15:13:29 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197077 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4120) Created page with "'''Bitch, Ienai!''' is arguably a single language, but also a family of languages, created by [[User:Yayimhere]] with assistance from [[User:MarkFan8901]]. How does this make any sense? Well, this is because it is a constraint language. A constraint lan
15:13:42 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197078&oldid=197077 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0)
15:14:34 <yayimheretoo> hey PkmnQ, you seemed interested in my and Markfan's convo, and the resulting constraint language was just documented. would you wanna give it a try and solve it?
15:14:41 <yayimheretoo> this is it, btw: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitch,_Ienai!
15:16:40 <de67> id flag the page as ai slop due to the excessive use of bolding and and bullet points, but i doubt that youd use an llm to write a wikipage
15:17:12 <de67> oh and also some of your writing quirks tell me that it was you who wrote the page
15:17:30 <inhahe> i've heard llms are bad at wiki format
15:17:56 <de67> the most obvious being the fact that you never put spaces before the opening parantheses
15:18:13 <yayimheretoo> the bolding, if you notice, is on the same words every time, because its to make clear its this pages specific definition of those words
15:18:29 <de67> the second most obvious, which requires carefuly reading the page, is the fact thats its a bit informal
15:19:16 <de67> it at least gets the point across
15:24:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197079&oldid=184280 * Dragoneater67 * (+732) /* Thue has been featured for 7+ years */ new section
15:25:14 <de67> hopefully THIS will result in the end of thue's dictatorship
15:26:37 <de67> i think that esolanging wiki page should have etymology section
15:27:25 <aadenboy> iterate should be the next featured language :) (EXTREMELY BIASED)
15:27:41 <de67> aadenboy: watch me do something
15:28:06 <aadenboy> in a fit of ego and slef appreciation I nominate All of my GOod esolangs for featured. Since I am so goated
15:28:20 <de67> good morning aadenboy
15:28:43 <de67> i have awesome life advice for you: dont wait for your next esolang
15:28:45 <yayimheretoo> on the topic of submitting ones own language for smth
15:29:01 <de67> thats what happened to me
15:29:10 <de67> i created a subpage called miracle
15:29:25 <de67> i waited for a good idea to spawn in my mind
15:29:37 <de67> i quitting esolanging
15:29:44 <de67> for a month or so
15:30:04 <de67> and then returned
15:30:22 <de67> moral of the story: uuuh
15:30:24 <aadenboy> my subpages are mostly braindumps
15:30:39 <de67> aadenboy: you could say, [[brainfart]]s
15:30:55 <de67> get it? im advertising my own esolang!
15:31:17 <yayimheretoo> i was about to too but it probably didn't grab enough attention for me to actually do it
15:31:36 <aadenboy> about drafts, I think [[User:Aadenboy/ɻ]] has potential
15:31:45 <de67> we dont share timezones, so a lot of my activity on this irc channel could be described as a [[soliloquy]]
15:32:33 <de67> looks cool, too bad i skimmed through the page and understood nothing
15:34:27 <de67> i think i understood it
15:34:31 <de67> it seems interesting
15:34:53 <de67> it might be able to do stuff similarly to nopfunge and friends
15:35:15 <aadenboy> I thought "friends" was the name of an esolang lmao
15:35:46 <de67> nopfunge and friends refers to nopfunge and esolangs similar to nopfunge
15:35:54 <de67> like nopfunge solid and yoctofunge
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16:50:11 <HackEso> base? No such file or directory
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17:02:03 <de67> were all gonna die
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17:16:58 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Myepicuse012940 * New user account
17:17:22 <de98> thats quite a random username
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17:20:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197080&oldid=197054 * Myepicuse012940 * (+178) i added me
17:21:10 <de67> correct grammar!
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17:47:55 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197081 * Myepicuse012940 * (+1995) makes a page
17:48:28 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197082&oldid=197081 * Myepicuse012940 * (-112)
17:51:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197083&oldid=196924 * Myepicuse012940 * (+28) added brainfuck never clear
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18:01:46 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197084&oldid=197082 * Dragoneater67 * (-240) /* Computational Class */
18:01:56 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197085&oldid=197084 * Dragoneater67 * (+2) /* Computational Class */
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18:53:03 <zzo38> The canonical order of a set of integers in DER will be the ordinary order if there are no negative integers, but if some are negative then the order is a bit more mixed up.
18:55:00 <zzo38> Before each number which is half of a power of 256, there will be the negative numbers, negative of the half of the power of 256, and then increasing up to whatever number was already included in this order.
18:56:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aadenboy * uploaded "[[File:Esobug.png]]": Bug [[Esolang:Trilime|trilime]]
18:57:33 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197087&oldid=196747 * Aadenboy * (+45) figured I should Perhaps upload it
18:57:48 <zzo38> The canonical order of a set of bit strings is by (7 XOR ((Length in bits) - 1)), and then the ordinary order for bit strings with the same length than each other.
18:58:12 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197088&oldid=197087 * Aadenboy * (+0) hm
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19:39:59 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197089&oldid=197078 * MarkFan8901 * (-489) rewrite first paragraph to be more concise + remove mention of the 'base' solution (it should be on a subpage to avoid spoilers)
19:42:15 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197090&oldid=197089 * MarkFan8901 * (+1)
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19:54:14 <ais523> I was reading a discussion (as part of the design of a serious language) about how 0-bit signed integers should behave
19:54:56 <ais523> after thinking about it for a while, it turns out that to be consistent with signed integers of other bitwidths, the value of a 0-bit signed integer should be -0.5 (which has its own problems due to not being traditionally considered an integer)
19:55:09 <ais523> (0-bit unsigned integers are fine, they have the value 0 as expected)
20:00:32 <aadenboy> since all bits set would be the negative of half of the maximum value unsigned? that doesn't make sense in words actually but I assume that's related to how that number is found
20:01:21 <ais523> the clearest argument to me is that for all other widths of signed integers, if you average all the possible values, the average is -0.5
20:01:29 <ais523> so that should also be true in the case where there's only one value
20:03:07 <ais523> but you can also figure it out using formulas like "the maximum is 2**(n-1)-1 and the minimum is -2**(n-1)" which causes both the maximum and minimum to be -0.5
20:05:07 <aadenboy> I wonder why 0-bit signed ints were being discussed
20:06:51 <int-e> or maybe disallow signed 0-bit numbers because there is no sign bit
20:06:56 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197091&oldid=188639 * Bangyen * (-104) /* Examples */ Add a short H example and remove prose annotations from runnable Hello World code
20:07:46 <int-e> and then there are also one-s complement and sign magnitude options which average to 0
20:08:35 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197092&oldid=197091 * Bangyen * (-872)
20:13:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197093 * MarkFan8901 * (+296) /* Bitch, Ienai!/Solution */ new section
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20:17:38 <esolangs> [[SLOW ACV MAMMALIAN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197094&oldid=197092 * Bangyen * (-28) /* Print H */ Quote literal output in heading and remove redundant sentence
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20:31:21 <ais523> aadenboy: well, the language allowed both signed and unsigned integers with other numbers of bits
20:31:41 <ais523> and possibly didn't realise that the minimum widths for signed and unsinged integers before the pattern breaks down are different
20:32:39 <ais523> int-e: and two's-complement with a sentinel value rather than an asymmetric range (in which case a 0-bit signed integer makes sense but has only the sentinel value, no actual values)
20:34:25 <int-e> FWIW, "unsinged" is one of my favorite typos
20:36:42 <ais523> I like it too (but it wasn't intentional)
20:37:20 <ais523> I also like "rouge" for "rogue", which seems to be something like >50% in people who aren't used to typing "rogue" regularly (oddly, I have the opposite problem, using "rogue" on a regular basis I find I need extra concentration to type "rouge")
21:53:18 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197095&oldid=197090 * MarkFan8901 * (-25) more rewording
21:53:40 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197096&oldid=197095 * MarkFan8901 * (+1)
21:55:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197097&oldid=197093 * MarkFan8901 * (+3)
21:56:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ayaandh * New user account
21:57:32 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197098&oldid=197096 * MarkFan8901 * (-15) more rewording top paragraph
21:58:49 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197099&oldid=197098 * MarkFan8901 * (-2)
22:01:12 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197100&oldid=197099 * MarkFan8901 * (-7)
22:01:25 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197101&oldid=197100 * MarkFan8901 * (+1)
22:07:31 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197102&oldid=197101 * MarkFan8901 * (-9)
22:37:47 <aadenboy> throws me off that the IPA symbol for voiced velar plosive is /ɡ/ (U+0261) since the tail is open
22:37:58 <HackEso> [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0261 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCRIPT G]
23:07:17 <zzo38> I had also thought about 0-bit signed integers, and also thought of -0.5 but that is not a integer and a 0-bit signed integer is presumably not valid. ASN.1 says that a 0-bit integer value (represented as 2U<> in TER) is not valid, presumably for the same reason that I had thought of and you had mentioned also.
23:08:52 <zzo38> (If it were valid, it would come before all positive and negative integers in the canonical order that I mentioned)