00:12:45 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197103&oldid=197102 * MarkFan8901 * (-1) 
00:13:37 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197104&oldid=197103 * MarkFan8901 * (-15) 
00:15:19 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197105&oldid=197104 * MarkFan8901 * (-1) 
00:20:03 <b_jonas> `olist 1350
00:20:08 <HackEso> olist <https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1350.html>: shachaf oerjan Sgeo boily nortti b_jonas Noisytoot
00:20:21 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197106 * MarkFan8901 * (+3301) Created page with "fuller rewrite of [[Bitch, Ienai!]]:  '''Bitch, Ienai!''' is a constraint language created by [[User:Yayimhere]] with assistance from [[User:MarkFan8901]]. Unlike a typical esolang, Bitch, Ienai! works like a constraint puzzle for esolangs; it's def
00:20:27 <ais523> b_jonas: ah, I was going to do that one but couldn't connect to Libera
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00:20:48 <ais523> I think they've hard-banned at least one address inside the dynamic IP range my connection uses, so if I happen to be given that one randomly I can't connect
00:21:37 <ais523> (I have OOTS connected to a feed reader inside my email client, so when a new OOTS comic is posted, I get notified as though I had received an email)
00:21:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
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00:28:35 <MarkFan8901> we just noticed on the [[Bitch, Ienai!]] page yayimhere uses a `{{cd}}` template instead of `<code></code>`
00:29:57 <aadenboy> it's just a shorthand for the same tag
00:30:20 <MarkFan8901> right, but it seems kind of excessive
00:30:50 <MarkFan8901> to make a whole template just so its shorter in the wikitext
00:34:31 <b_jonas> ais523: it's fine, there are two other people here who sometimes send that notification. And if we wanted to make it reliable we'd have automted it anyway.
00:38:23 <aadenboy> ais523: the 99 bottles of beer page is nearing the need to be split
00:39:12 <MarkFan8901> maybe code challenge pages should be automatically split between the problem itself and their implementations
00:40:58 <aadenboy> I'm in line with that idea, would allow more room to explain the problem a little deeper I think
00:41:33 <MarkFan8901> yesyes
00:42:10 <aadenboy> there's a comparison to be made with [[Hello, world!]], [[99 bottles of beer]] and [[FizzBuzz]] since they're all "Kolmogorov complexity" problems, but the means to which the problem is solved is different
00:42:45 <aadenboy> the first is just a constant, the second requires iteration and a unique final step, the third requires iteration and some sort of check for periodicity
00:43:31 <MarkFan8901> you putting all of those in such abstract terms gave us a whiff of an esolang idea
00:43:48 <MarkFan8901> to try to get close to the limit of kolmogorov complexity
00:44:13 <aadenboy> aadenboy: 99bb wouldn't be interesting if it were only the numbers 99 to 0; the fun is the additional concatenations and having to handle the plural form alongside the unique final verse
00:45:00 <aadenboy> fizzbuzz leads to modulo of course, but it can also use different methods of repeating a la counting up or string rewriting
00:45:25 <aadenboy>  
00:45:25 <aadenboy> `lua -e i=0 print(("n n Fizz n Buzz Fizz n n Fizz Buzz n Fizz n n FizzBuzz "):rep(7):gsub("%S+",load'i=i+1 return ...=="n"and i or ...'))
00:45:28 <HackEso> 1 2 Fizz 4 Buzz Fizz 7 8 Fizz Buzz 11 Fizz 13 14 FizzBuzz 16 17 Fizz 19 Buzz Fizz 22 23 Fizz Buzz 26 Fizz 28 29 FizzBuzz 31 32 Fizz 34 Buzz Fizz 37 38 Fizz Buzz 41 Fizz 43 44 FizzBuzz 46 47 Fizz 49 Buzz Fizz 52 53 Fizz Buzz 56 Fizz 58 59 FizzBuzz 61 62 Fizz 64 Buzz Fizz 67 68 Fizz Buzz 71 Fizz 73 74 FizzBuzz 76 77 Fizz 79 Buzz Fizz 82 83 Fizz Buzz 86 Fizz 88 89 FizzBuzz 91 92 Fizz 94 Buzz Fizz 97 98 Fizz Buzz 101 Fizz 103 104 FizzBuzz 105
00:46:41 <MarkFan8901> it can also be written in the objectively correct way, which is an if/else chain for each constant
00:50:02 <aadenboy> `lua -e t=0 f=0 w=io.write for i=1, 100 do t=t+1 f=f+1 if t<3 and f<5 then w(i.."")end if t==3 then t=0 w"Fizz"end if f==5 then f=0 w"Buzz"end w"\n"end 
00:50:05 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
00:50:56 <MarkFan8901> what if you generate a table that maps numbers to their fizzbuzz string, then iterate over that
00:51:01 <aadenboy> already writing that
00:51:27 <MarkFan8901> actually hold on perhaps haskell set constructors could do that pretty fluently too
00:51:29 <aadenboy> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[3]=f,[5]=b,[6]=f,[9]=f,[10]=b,[12]=f,[15]=f..b}for i=1,100 do print(f[i]or i)end
00:51:32 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ 72 \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ 78 \ 79 \ 80 \ 81 \ 82 \ 83 \ 84 \ 85 \ 86 \ 87 \ 88 \ 89 \ 90 \ 91 \ 92 \ 93 \ 94 \
00:51:32 <aadenboy> er
00:52:05 <aadenboy> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[3]=f,[5]=b,[6]=f,[9]=f,[10]=b,[12]=f,[15]=f..b}t=0 for i=1,100 do t=t+1 print(n[t]or i) if t==15 then t=0 end end
00:52:09 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
00:52:51 <MarkFan8901> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[3]=f,[5]=b,[6]=f,[9]=f,[10]=b,[12]=f,[15]=f..b}t=0 for i=1,100 do t=i%15 print(n[t]or i) end
00:52:54 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ Fizz \ 79 \ Buzz \ F
00:53:27 <aadenboy> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[3]=f,[5]=b,[6]=f,[9]=f,[10]=b,[12]=f,[15]=f..b}t=0 for i=1,100 do print(n[i%15]or i)end -- would've done this but I barred modulo for the original one
00:53:30 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ Fizz \ 79 \ Buzz \ F
00:53:36 <aadenboy> ...
00:53:46 <MarkFan8901> so theres a legit bug with modulo
00:53:50 <aadenboy> nono it's 0 indexed
00:54:19 <aadenboy> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[3]=f,[5]=b,[6]=f,[9]=f,[10]=b,[12]=f,[15]=f..b}for i=1,99 do print(n[(i-1)%15+1]or i)end -- would've done this but I barred modulo for the original one
00:54:22 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
00:54:51 <aadenboy> actually I can just shift the indices
00:55:31 <aadenboy> `lua -e f="Fizz"b="Buzz"n={[2]=f,[4]=b,[5]=f,[8]=f,[9]=b,[11]=f,[14]=f..b}for i=1,99 do print(n[(i-1)%15]or i)end -- would've done this but I barred modulo for the original one
00:55:34 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
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00:55:47 <aadenboy> fofrgot to remove the comment each time lmao
00:56:03 <MarkFan8901> ye cuz u would have done it
00:56:09 <MarkFan8901> but you barred modulo for the original one
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01:00:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197107&oldid=197097 * MarkFan8901 * (+454) /* what is a value, actually */ new section
01:03:17 <b_jonas> `lua -e "aadenboy: have you considered this?"; s=0;k=0;for c=1,100 do p="";s=s+1;k=k+1;if 3<s then s=0;p="fizz"end;if 5<k then k=0;p=p.."buzz"end;if""==p then p=c end;print(p)end
01:03:19 <HackEso> lua: (command line):1: unexpected symbol near '"aadenboy: have you considered this?"'
01:03:24 <b_jonas> argh
01:03:27 <b_jonas> f'king lua
01:03:31 <b_jonas> `lua -ev="aadenboy: have you considered this?"; s=0;k=0;for c=1,100 do p="";s=s+1;k=k+1;if 3<s then s=0;p="fizz"end;if 5<k then k=0;p=p.."buzz"end;if""==p then p=c end;print(p)end
01:03:33 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ fizz \ 5 \ buzz \ 7 \ fizz \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ fizzbuzz \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ fizz \ 17 \ buzz \ 19 \ fizz \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ fizzbuzz \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ fizz \ 29 \ buzz \ 31 \ fizz \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ fizzbuzz \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ fizz \ 41 \ buzz \ 43 \ fizz \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ fizzbuzz \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ fizz \ 53 \ buzz \ 55 \ fizz \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ fizzbuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ fizz \ 65 \ buzz \ 67 \ fizz \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ fizzbuzz \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ fizz \ 77 \ buzz \ 
01:05:44 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197108&oldid=197105 * MarkFan8901 * (-7) 
01:06:51 <aadenboy> that doesn't look quite right
01:07:29 <MarkFan8901> `lua -ev="aadenboy: have you considered this?"; s=0;k=0;for c=1,100 do p="";s=s+1;k=k+1;if 3<=s then s=0;p="fizz"end;if 5<=k then k=0;p=p.."buzz"end;if""==p then p=c end;print(p)end
01:07:31 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ fizz \ 4 \ buzz \ fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ fizz \ buzz \ 11 \ fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ fizzbuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ fizz \ 19 \ buzz \ fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ fizz \ buzz \ 26 \ fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ fizzbuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ fizz \ 34 \ buzz \ fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ fizz \ buzz \ 41 \ fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ fizzbuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ fizz \ 49 \ buzz \ fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ fizz \ buzz \ 56 \ fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ fizzbuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ fizz \ 64 \ buzz \ fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ fizz \ buzz \ 71 \ fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ fizzbuzz \ 
01:07:34 <ais523> <aadenboy> ais523: the 99 bottles of beer page is nearing the need to be split ← it is a wiki, this sort of edit usually doesn't need an admin (unless it runs into issues relating to the amount of content you can add in a single edit)
01:07:56 <aadenboy> `lua -e s=0;k=0;for c=1,100 do p="";s=s+1;k=k+1;if 2<s then s=0;p="fizz"end;if 4<k then k=0;p=p.."buzz"end;if""==p then p=c end;print(p)end
01:07:56 <MarkFan8901> oki oki
01:07:58 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ fizz \ 4 \ buzz \ fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ fizz \ buzz \ 11 \ fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ fizzbuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ fizz \ 19 \ buzz \ fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ fizz \ buzz \ 26 \ fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ fizzbuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ fizz \ 34 \ buzz \ fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ fizz \ buzz \ 41 \ fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ fizzbuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ fizz \ 49 \ buzz \ fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ fizz \ buzz \ 56 \ fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ fizzbuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ fizz \ 64 \ buzz \ fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ fizz \ buzz \ 71 \ fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ fizzbuzz \ 
01:08:01 <b_jonas> `lua -es=0;k=0;for c=1,100 do p="";s=s+1;k=k+1;if 2<s then s=0;p="fizz"end;if 4<k then k=0;p=p.."buzz"end;if""==p then p=c end;print(p)end
01:08:04 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ fizz \ 4 \ buzz \ fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ fizz \ buzz \ 11 \ fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ fizzbuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ fizz \ 19 \ buzz \ fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ fizz \ buzz \ 26 \ fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ fizzbuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ fizz \ 34 \ buzz \ fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ fizz \ buzz \ 41 \ fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ fizzbuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ fizz \ 49 \ buzz \ fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ fizz \ buzz \ 56 \ fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ fizzbuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ fizz \ 64 \ buzz \ fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ fizz \ buzz \ 71 \ fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ fizzbuzz \ 
01:15:29 <aadenboy> `lua -efor i=1,100 do print((("Fizz"):sub(i%3*4)..("Buzz"):sub(i%5*4)):gsub("^$",i))end
01:15:32 <HackEso> zz0 \ 21 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ Buzz0 \ Fizzz0 \ z0 \ 81 \ Fizz0 \ zBuzz0 \ z0 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ 141 \ FizzBuzz0 \ zz0 \ 171 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ Buzz0 \ Fizzz0 \ z0 \ 231 \ Fizz0 \ zBuzz0 \ z0 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ 291 \ FizzBuzz0 \ zz0 \ 321 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ Buzz0 \ Fizzz0 \ z0 \ 381 \ Fizz0 \ zBuzz0 \ z0 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ 441 \ FizzBuzz0 \ zz0 \ 471 \ Fizz0 \ z0 \ Buzz0 \ Fizzz0 \ z0 \ 531 \ Fizz0 \ zBuzz0 \ z0 \ Fizz0 \ z0 
01:15:42 <aadenboy> oh
01:16:09 <aadenboy> `lua -efor i=1,100 do print((("Fizz"):sub(i%3*5)..("Buzz"):sub(i%5*5)):gsub("^$",i).."")end
01:16:13 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
01:16:41 <aadenboy> `lua -efor i=1,100 do print(((("Fizz"):sub(i%3*5)..("Buzz"):sub(i%5*5)):gsub("^$",i)))end
01:16:44 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
01:18:30 <b_jonas> `lua -ep=1;for c=1,100 do q={c,c,"fizz",c,"buzz","fizz",c,c,"fizz","buzz",c,"fizz",c,c,"fizzbuzz"};print(q[p]);if p<15 then p=p+1 else p=1 end;end
01:18:33 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ fizz \ 4 \ buzz \ fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ fizz \ buzz \ 11 \ fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ fizzbuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ fizz \ 19 \ buzz \ fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ fizz \ buzz \ 26 \ fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ fizzbuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ fizz \ 34 \ buzz \ fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ fizz \ buzz \ 41 \ fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ fizzbuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ fizz \ 49 \ buzz \ fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ fizz \ buzz \ 56 \ fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ fizzbuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ fizz \ 64 \ buzz \ fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ fizz \ buzz \ 71 \ fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ fizzbuzz \ 
01:18:50 <b_jonas> aadenboy: ^ if you want a modulo 15 thing without the modulo operator
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01:20:16 <aadenboy> `lua -ef="Fizz"b="Buzz"t=0 for i=1,100 do t=t+1 print(({i,i,f,i,b,f,i,i,f,b,i,f,i,i,f..b})[t])if t==15 then t=0 end end
01:20:19 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
01:20:46 <aadenboy> `lua -ef="Fizz"b="Buzz"t=0 for i=1,100 do t=t+1 print(({i,i,f,i,b,f,i,i,f,b,i,f,i,i,f..b})[t])if 14<t then t=0 end end
01:20:49 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
01:21:04 <aadenboy> hmmm
01:21:50 <aadenboy> `lua -ef="Fizz"b="Buzz"t=0 for i=1,100 do t=14<t and 0 or t+1 print(({i,i,f,i,b,f,i,i,f,b,i,f,i,i,f..b})[t])end
01:21:53 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ nil \ 17 \ 18 \ Fizz \ 20 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 23 \ 24 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 27 \ Fizz \ 29 \ 30 \ FizzBuzz \ nil \ 33 \ 34 \ Fizz \ 36 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 39 \ 40 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 43 \ Fizz \ 45 \ 46 \ FizzBuzz \ nil \ 49 \ 50 \ Fizz \ 52 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 55 \ 56 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 59 \ Fizz \ 61 \ 62 \ FizzBuzz \ nil \ 65 \ 66 \ Fizz \ 68 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 71 \ 72 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 75 \ Fizz
01:22:47 <aadenboy> whoops
01:22:54 <aadenboy> `lua -ef="Fizz"b="Buzz"t=0 for i=1,100 do t=14<t and 1 or t+1 print(({i,i,f,i,b,f,i,i,f,b,i,f,i,i,f..b})[t])end
01:22:57 <HackEso> 1 \ 2 \ Fizz \ 4 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 7 \ 8 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 11 \ Fizz \ 13 \ 14 \ FizzBuzz \ 16 \ 17 \ Fizz \ 19 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 22 \ 23 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 26 \ Fizz \ 28 \ 29 \ FizzBuzz \ 31 \ 32 \ Fizz \ 34 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 37 \ 38 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 41 \ Fizz \ 43 \ 44 \ FizzBuzz \ 46 \ 47 \ Fizz \ 49 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 52 \ 53 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 56 \ Fizz \ 58 \ 59 \ FizzBuzz \ 61 \ 62 \ Fizz \ 64 \ Buzz \ Fizz \ 67 \ 68 \ Fizz \ Buzz \ 71 \ Fizz \ 73 \ 74 \ FizzBuzz \ 
01:29:05 <esolangs> [[FizzBuzz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197109&oldid=197008 * Aadenboy * (+781) /* Lua */ add some solutions in [[Lua]]
01:51:30 <esolangs> [[Toki pi ilo nanpa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197110&oldid=124015 * Aartaka * (+0) Fix a typo in "reference"
01:52:00 <MarkFan8901> ah
01:52:01 <MarkFan8901> toki pona
01:52:02 <MarkFan8901> scary
01:53:07 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197111&oldid=197106 * MarkFan8901 * (-819) 
01:54:38 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197112&oldid=197111 * MarkFan8901 * (+40) 
01:58:11 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197113&oldid=197112 * MarkFan8901 * (+24) 
01:59:31 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197114&oldid=197113 * MarkFan8901 * (-12) 
02:03:35 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197115&oldid=197114 * MarkFan8901 * (+9) 
02:04:32 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Blog draft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197116 * Aadenboy * (+7586) this was written in the middle of the night. I might rewrite this entirely tbh but Hey. May be fine as is
02:04:53 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197117&oldid=197115 * MarkFan8901 * (+2) 
02:05:15 <aadenboy> MarkFan8901: ^ the draft was based on our chat on computation
02:05:27 <MarkFan8901> oh hm
02:06:17 <MarkFan8901> having a subpage with "Blog" in the name is kind of on the nose for using the wiki like a blog though
02:06:22 <MarkFan8901> we'll still read it tho
02:06:36 <aadenboy> it will be moved to my personal wiki when it's finalized
02:06:48 <aadenboy> probably could've just shared the google doc directly tbh
02:07:15 <MarkFan8901> this might actually be better in the moment cuz we dont trust google docs
02:07:46 <MarkFan8901> if you wanna share a text doc with us (or here in general) we would suggest catbox.moe
02:08:23 <aadenboy> I'd've made it a github pages site if not esolangs, already what the /miscellaneous/ subdir is being used for
02:08:34 <aadenboy> * on my site
02:08:41 <zzo38> It is often considered that the symbols in logic will have values, which are usually TRUE and FALSE; however, the rules can be used even if they do not have any values, or you could have different values. For example, the values might be integers, and a modal operator could have a value of -1 if the operand is -1 or 0 otherwise.
02:09:31 <zzo38> (You might then also make up a "shift operator" and then the rules of that too)
02:09:35 <MarkFan8901> yea logic is actually just an algreba over two symbols true and false
02:10:14 <MarkFan8901> you could probably deliberately make a system that looks nothing like logic values-wise but has the structure of logic in its meta-structure
02:13:40 <zzo38> Yes, or have no values at all (in my opinion, the rules of logic does not have values by itself, even though they often say that they do).
02:14:25 <MarkFan8901> hm wait hold on
02:14:33 <MarkFan8901> a system like that might actually have some incredibly useful properties
02:14:53 <MarkFan8901> since you can apply the entirety of work that's been put into logic so far to the meta-structure of it
02:14:57 <zzo38> For example, they often say law of excluded middle "X OR NOT X" must mean that either "X" must be true or "NOT X" must be true, but I think, not necessarily. If you do not use values like TRUE and FALSE then it won't mean that.
02:15:01 <MarkFan8901> to get certain properties of the language
02:15:09 <zzo38> Even though, law of excluded middle can still be valid, despite that.
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02:31:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197118&oldid=196940 * None1 * (+363) /* BF Joust strategies */
02:36:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Blog draft]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197119 * MarkFan8901 * (+2434) /* thoughts on this */ new section
02:36:33 <MarkFan8901> aadeboy: Our response. (Not clickbait)
02:36:35 <MarkFan8901> aadenboy:
02:37:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Blog draft]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197120&oldid=197119 * MarkFan8901 * (+0) 
02:39:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Blog draft]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197121&oldid=197120 * Aadenboy * (+460) 
02:40:23 <esolangs> [[User talk:Aadenboy/Blog draft]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197122&oldid=197121 * MarkFan8901 * (+244) 
02:40:56 <aadenboy> enlightened felt like the right word :P
02:41:07 <aadenboy> properly it would be "revealing" instead
02:41:11 <aadenboy> er, "revealed"
02:41:38 <MarkFan8901> yea the emotions behind figuring stuff like that out are very weird
02:42:00 <MarkFan8901> its one we love though so we chase after it ceaselessly
02:42:31 <MarkFan8901> also something about the difficulty/challenge split, we originally came up with it in a completely different context
02:42:47 <MarkFan8901> yet it somehow managed to directly bust through into here too
02:42:56 <aadenboy> it makes sense
02:43:00 <MarkFan8901> yknow that language that got added earlier called [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]]?
02:43:06 <aadenboy> mhm
02:43:27 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197123&oldid=197118 * Ais523 * (+1102) /* BF Joust strategies */ some feedback
02:43:55 <aadenboy> "part of a series of other esoteric programming languages turned into awfully disgusting tools to use" aka derivative slop machine........
02:44:43 <MarkFan8901> the name is a reference to the "[blank] never clear" trope for really difficult levels/challenges/games made in video games with incredibly active builder communities
02:44:50 <MarkFan8901> like geometry dash and roblox, for example
02:45:13 <aadenboy> oh I think that sounds familiar
02:45:31 <MarkFan8901> the trope originated in geometry dash where [blank] would be popular people in the gd community, and the level would be made for them
02:45:41 <MarkFan8901> and the premise is that the level is Too Hard For Them To Beat
02:45:59 <aadenboy> noclip:
02:46:02 <aadenboy>  /j
02:46:03 <MarkFan8901> true....
02:46:32 <MarkFan8901> but its spread basically everywhere that communities centered around ultra-hard difficulty has, which spring up naturally from communities around building gameplay
02:47:23 <MarkFan8901> we were actually in one of those communities, one built around ultra-hard towers and whatever
02:47:34 <aadenboy> towers :]
02:47:39 <MarkFan8901> ye
02:47:41 <MarkFan8901> well we're Still in it, but not as active
02:48:09 <MarkFan8901> recently we've noticed a MUCH more massive and popular surge in them in the general tower community
02:48:27 <MarkFan8901> to the point we could feel the splash back of it from the little corners of the tower community we still pay attention to now
02:48:53 <MarkFan8901> and we noticed that a lot of the ultra-hard gameplay being pumped out in them were. uh
02:48:56 <MarkFan8901> very low quality
02:49:02 <MarkFan8901> but it was hard to put *why*
02:49:31 <aadenboy> arbitrary theoretical hardness, I presume
02:49:48 <MarkFan8901> nah thats a completely different ballpark
02:50:07 <MarkFan8901> however thats funny cuz that is an actual issue anyways, its just not related to this one
02:50:21 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: cuz otherwise a lot of them have TONS of production value, with gorgeous decoration and very meaty lengthy gameplay
02:50:33 <MarkFan8901> which is also a common theme in other games like geometry dash
02:50:44 <MarkFan8901> but their gameplay just,, kinda sucks
02:51:00 <MarkFan8901> and we managed to pin it down to that difficulty/challenge distinction
02:51:17 <MarkFan8901> a lot of the gameplay being made is *difficult*, yes, but its not very challenging
02:51:25 <MarkFan8901> you just figure out how to do the jump then you do it
02:52:05 <MarkFan8901> all of the difficulty is concentrated purely into executing the inputs to do the gameplay and nothing else
02:52:57 <MarkFan8901> any challenge that would come from having to think about how the jumps really work or how different mechanics interact with each other are considered incidental
02:53:01 <MarkFan8901> and not like a 'real' source of difficulty
02:53:17 <aadenboy> this makes more sense now, I've made level(s) exactly like that
02:53:19 <MarkFan8901> the problem, of course, being that thats where *most* of the intrigue of towers come from
02:53:24 <aadenboy> geometry dash levels*
02:53:42 <MarkFan8901> we're glad this is all ringing a bell for you
02:53:53 <MarkFan8901> we're doing important work here /kindatongueincheek
02:54:30 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: since towers are just platformers; to make a good hard platformer you still need to make a good platformer
02:54:37 <esolangs> [[Hexafunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197124&oldid=197005 * Cordership * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */
02:54:54 <MarkFan8901> ok but to bring this back to esolangs
02:55:43 <MarkFan8901> [[Brainfuck NEVER CLEAR]] is a perfect demonstration of this attitude about difficulty
02:56:18 <MarkFan8901> because its an attempt to apply it to esolangs, but the problem is that esolanging is literally composed 100% of that exploration
02:56:26 <MarkFan8901> an exploration of challenge
02:57:18 <MarkFan8901> that is how the original context of our idea got roped directly into esolanging
02:57:21 <MarkFan8901> and uh ya
02:59:04 <aadenboy> it was an insightful distinction, where it came from too it's clearer
02:59:23 <MarkFan8901> yayay thank u
02:59:27 <aadenboy> maybe esolanging is like puzzle designing......
02:59:51 <MarkFan8901> oh maybe thats why designing that constraint language felt so much like typical esolanging
03:00:24 <MarkFan8901> a funny idea is that all of this is just game design
03:00:29 <aadenboy> no yeah esolanging *is* puzzle designing in a way
03:00:33 <MarkFan8901> yee
03:00:37 <aadenboy> turing tumble would be the clearest example of that
03:00:57 <MarkFan8901> [[Final Word Of The Day]] and [[Bitch, Ienai!]] also
03:00:57 <aadenboy> you give the "player" a set of primitives to use and ask them to make programs from it
03:01:06 <MarkFan8901> actually wait hold on
03:01:10 <MarkFan8901> we're gonna check out turing tumble
03:02:14 <MarkFan8901> hm
03:02:17 <MarkFan8901> >Turing Tumble has been proven to be Turing-complete, given an infinitely long board and unlimited pieces.
03:02:32 <MarkFan8901> (we havent read it fully yet)
03:02:43 <aadenboy> hm the page doesn't link to the website for iit
03:02:45 <aadenboy> it*
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03:03:02 <esolangs> [[Turing Tumble]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197125&oldid=193486 * Aadenboy * (+41) /* External links */
03:03:06 <aadenboy> https://upperstory.com/en/turingtumble/
03:03:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * None1 *  uploaded "[[File:Turtlefuck.png]]": Logo for the [[Turtlefuck]] esolang.
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03:03:17 <MarkFan8901> if you cant add new pieces to the board, that requirement would seem to paint turing tumble as an fsa
03:03:44 <MarkFan8901> since the unlimited pieces would presumably act as the memory, aswell as the core computational bit
03:04:06 <MarkFan8901> like a neural network, which are fsa's
03:04:38 <MarkFan8901> it makes us think though, the concept of an infinite state automaton is kind of interesting
03:04:45 <MarkFan8901> as in an fsa extended to be infinite
03:05:13 <MarkFan8901> wonder if there could be any unique observations made about them being weirdly in between fsas and turing machines
03:06:38 <aadenboy> felt like mentioning: "all of the difficulty is concentrated purely into executing the inputs to do the gameplay and nothing else" this reminds me of the hardest level in cellua, which is a very large kaizo level requiring 700+ ticks of precise inputs (and has only been completed by a TAS)
03:07:00 <aadenboy> but "precise inputs" is a misnomer since each tick is discrete and immediate, so I don't know how well the concept holds
03:07:07 <aadenboy> (*a tick is 0.2 seconds)
03:07:14 <MarkFan8901> we think it still holds
03:07:32 <aadenboy> the platformer meta in cellua has not advanced at all so I don't have any of a reference point to compare it to
03:07:48 <MarkFan8901> actually we need to look up what cellua is again
03:07:50 <esolangs> [[Oceanfunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197127&oldid=197057 * Cordership * (+56) 
03:07:53 <aadenboy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFpfsU8RAAw <- this is the tas if you're curious
03:08:36 <MarkFan8901> watching
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03:09:27 <esolangs> [[Hexafunge]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197128&oldid=197124 * Cordership * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */
03:09:28 <MarkFan8901> yes great example of what we're talking about
03:10:52 <aadenboy> "so I don't have any of a reference point to compare it to" <- well, there is https://cellua.miraheze.org/wiki/File:FrostbiteHallCompletion.mp4
03:10:56 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: same thing for high level cut the rope, which people have depressingly reduced to just spamming the gravity button through tight spaces
03:11:36 <aadenboy> oh yeah I've seen that
03:11:40 <MarkFan8901> aadenboy: damn thats actually kinda cool
03:11:59 <MarkFan8901> its like shell kaizo in smw
03:12:04 <MarkFan8901> oh speaking of which
03:12:12 <aadenboy> that cellua level was fun to beat :]
03:12:21 -!- simcop2387 has joined.
03:12:23 <MarkFan8901> glad to hear
03:12:27 <MarkFan8901> hi simcop2387
03:12:49 <aadenboy> also the icicle from that level accidentally ended up being the only cell in cellua to be able to achieve true diagonal movement faster than c
03:13:01 <aadenboy> er, first cell
03:13:11 <MarkFan8901> funny
03:13:55 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: a GREAT counterpoint to typical conceptions of difficulty is the current high-level tas-oriented romhacking community in smw
03:14:16 <ais523> aadenboy: based on my experience with speedrunners, the number of inputs a human could learn to input accurately at a rate of 5Hz is, with enough practice, likely to be extremely high
03:14:18 <MarkFan8901> as in, the community around making romhacks that are designed to be tased
03:14:34 <MarkFan8901> here lets pull up a really good example
03:15:40 <ais523> a realtime puzzle game I used to play ran at 10Hz and many of the later puzzles needed accurate inputs on most of the ticks, I couldn't do it reliably but could get close, and that was without that much practice
03:16:11 <MarkFan8901> https://youtu.be/aOzg7Bjtiv4
03:16:16 <MarkFan8901> warning: 6 hour long video
03:17:13 <aadenboy> that is a LOT of cape
03:17:18 <MarkFan8901> ye
03:17:23 <MarkFan8901> this is a rom hack where the premise is (we think) you have 10 keys you need to juggle in a HUGE map
03:17:55 <MarkFan8901> and align them all at the very end so that you can clip through them perfectly through a (if we remember correctly) 2 block wide floor to the orb
03:18:43 <aadenboy> one wide, checking the end
03:18:56 <MarkFan8901> we chose that video specifically cuz the way they did it looks REALLY satisfying at the end, but this is this author completion vid https://youtu.be/3xjzI8YEqOo
03:19:36 <MarkFan8901> the gameplay of this hack is almost completely removed from actually playing mario
03:20:05 <MarkFan8901> the main challenge is actually in writing the script that generates the inputs to complete it
03:20:42 <MarkFan8901> thats basically pure Challenge, completely divorced from any standard difficulty mario would provide
03:21:21 <MarkFan8901> we think this hack is actually what inspired us to work on our current tower, which we've talked about a bit before
03:21:59 <MarkFan8901> which is about programming bots to beat certain sections of gameplay
03:22:02 <aadenboy> it's all a puzzle in the end!
03:22:24 <MarkFan8901> ye
03:22:47 <MarkFan8901> we think this might actually just be a consequence of how gameplay is conceived of
03:23:35 <MarkFan8901> if youre thinking about gameplay in terms of difficulty, you just think about what 'hard' things come to mind first
03:23:45 <MarkFan8901> and then focus on how to make them more difficult
03:24:30 <MarkFan8901> you kind of lock yourself out of creativity as you try to pursue it harder and mentally push more things out of the way
03:24:55 <MarkFan8901> if youre thinking about gameplay in terms of creativity, however, you think about how you can create unique sources of difficulty and challenge
03:25:29 <MarkFan8901> which are much more mental tasks than simply buffing gameplay to the hardest limit you can
03:25:52 <MarkFan8901> them being mental tasks means your frame of reference is in thought
03:26:00 <MarkFan8901> which naturally lends itself to puzzling
03:26:24 <MarkFan8901> in short, when you think about challenge you think about puzzles because youre thinking about thinking and puzzles are about thinking
03:26:57 <MarkFan8901> ^ rhetoric final boss
03:27:29 <MarkFan8901> hopefully this all makes sense ;w;
03:27:35 <aadenboy> it very much does
03:27:37 <MarkFan8901> oki good
03:27:50 <MarkFan8901> we check cuz we know we're still prone to just babbling about things
03:28:10 <aadenboy> that's how it feels like when I write wiki pages haha
03:28:36 <MarkFan8901> perhaps we are very highly skilled at babbling
03:28:47 <MarkFan8901> to the point that we figured out how to make it useful
03:29:13 <MarkFan8901> actually no we think babbling is inherently useful
03:29:28 <MarkFan8901> when we said our original message we just mean like, we're prone to saying shit
03:29:49 <MarkFan8901> and not really paying attention to what overarching idea we're actually communicating
03:30:15 -!- lisbeths has joined.
03:30:26 <MarkFan8901> hi lisbeths
03:30:31 <aadenboy> quote of mine in a dm: "the only problem with enjoying writing in a wiki-like fashion and having Enough knowledge on a topic is that I sometimes feel like I'm kind of. spewing crap? in a way? like it's sensible in my mind but there's probably already existing, better definitions and language or what I'm saying just Isn't Right At All"
03:30:48 <lisbeths> MarkFan8901 hi can I be of assistance to you?
03:30:55 <MarkFan8901> wha
03:30:58 <MarkFan8901> are you a bot
03:31:08 <lisbeths> no. could a bot do this? 01010101001100101010100101
03:31:13 <MarkFan8901> okay okay
03:31:23 <MarkFan8901> sorry for being so stark thats just a very unnatural way to introduce yourself
03:31:23 <lisbeths> are (((you))) a bot?
03:31:29 <MarkFan8901> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
03:31:34 <MarkFan8901> you do know what those ((())) mean right
03:31:49 <aadenboy> ?
03:32:09 <lisbeths> its a way to emphasize a word popularized by japanese imageboards. some people associate it with the political far right but it isnt politically charged
03:32:36 <MarkFan8901> yea we recognize it from the fact neonazis use it to flag something as jewish
03:32:53 <lisbeths> well I am jewish and I voted for hillary clinton
03:33:13 <lisbeths> it is false that everyone who uses sites like 4chan are right wing. they are just the loudest voices tehre
03:33:33 <MarkFan8901> yeah we know our shit about 4chan and whatnot
03:33:38 <MarkFan8901> and also neo nazis
03:34:02 <lisbeths> 17 years ago when I started using the site most 4chan users were communist. and this changed over the years
03:34:09 <lisbeths> some boards are still very communist like /wg/
03:34:33 <MarkFan8901> actually okay we kinda lied we dont know like, the specifics of 4chan
03:34:41 <MarkFan8901> like we've only looked there a few times
03:34:54 <zzo38> Such thing like ((( ))) look to me like stuff like how in MediaWiki you can write [[ ]] to make a link, but something else instead
03:34:56 <lisbeths> its just a place to share pictures and to say outlandish things and watch people argue with each other
03:35:01 <tater_> Getchan has good music on YT but I've never looked at the boards
03:35:11 <aadenboy> zzo38: like ''' ''' for bolding?
03:35:38 <lisbeths> the reason people started using ((())) to emphasize a word is that when someone responds to you on 4chan it says (you) and so people started emphasizing words with (this) and it evolved to (((this)))
03:35:52 <MarkFan8901> hm
03:36:08 <lisbeths> the reason I like using (((this))) is that it isnt a notation used in any coding language
03:36:19 <MarkFan8901> oh thats a fair point
03:36:24 <zzo38> aadenboy: Yes I suppose similar to stuff like that
03:36:33 <MarkFan8901> but just know we've only ever seen that used by nazis before
03:36:35 <MarkFan8901> for nazi stuff
03:36:40 <MarkFan8901> so its kind of a culture shock for us
03:37:40 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197129&oldid=197108 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+16) /* Definitions */
03:37:56 <MarkFan8901> hey yayimhere is back
03:38:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197130&oldid=197107 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+160) /* what is a value, actually */
03:38:39 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197131&oldid=197130 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+198) /* Bitch, Ienai!/Solution */
03:39:42 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197132&oldid=197131 * MarkFan8901 * (+403) 
03:39:44 <lisbeths> understand that alot of these so called "nazis" are just young teenagers who are trying to be edgy, and many of then grow out of it when they get older
03:40:05 <lisbeths> and another large portion of them are literally just trying to be upsetting and dont fundamentally understand the politics they are speaking to
03:40:14 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197133&oldid=197129 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-10) /* Definitions */
03:40:43 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: ye we understand that to an extent
03:41:06 <tater_> The future of Nazism is a bunch of teens yelling slurs and not even bothering to read Mein Kampf. Even Hitler would be rolling in his flaming grave. But yea, there are some legitimate Nazis out there and it is sad.
03:41:22 <lisbeths> you can imagine a young disgruntled male playing video games and they look at all of these nazi uniforms and nazi guns and they think "wow I like these uniforms and guns this seems cool"
03:41:29 <lisbeths> but they often grow out of it to some degree
03:42:16 <lisbeths> theres a phrase on 4chan where people say "you wont do shit" and the joke is that alot of people larp like they are gonna go revolt but they never do. they just go to work and come home and watch youtube
03:42:19 <MarkFan8901> yeah we've heard being a nerd for ww2 artillery is one of the biggest ways ppl get exposed to nazi ideas
03:42:37 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: yea that is very true
03:43:07 <MarkFan8901> but theres still lots of people who are in the pits of the internet that they go to, and that still hurts the people in them
03:43:30 <MarkFan8901> like even if we're talking about a random twitter thread argument, there's still real people behind those arguments
03:43:54 <MarkFan8901> and a lot of ppl stay trapped talking to them
03:44:15 -!- ChimeraAnova has joined.
03:44:17 <MarkFan8901> we say this with experience of having been trapped like that too
03:44:51 <aadenboy> hey ChimeraAnova
03:45:15 <MarkFan8901> we do think stepping back and realizing a lot of this isnt irl like that is useful, especially for healing, but they still do harm
03:45:18 <MarkFan8901> and its harm we've been thourhg
03:45:23 <MarkFan8901> hi ChimeraAnova
03:45:47 <MarkFan8901> that snippet of text must look fucking crazy just cutting into the chat
03:46:41 <MarkFan8901> also lisbeths apologies our rhetoric isnt up to spec atm
03:46:59 <MarkFan8901> we just got done with having a HUGE conversation about the fundamentals of esolanging
03:47:12 <lisbeths> sure could you give me some key highlights
03:47:15 <MarkFan8901> and also talking about such a serious thing in a place like this is big whiplash for us
03:47:16 <lisbeths> maybe feed the logs into ai and summerize it
03:47:38 <MarkFan8901> Sure thing — I'll gladly do that for you!
03:47:57 <lisbeths> the m-dash...
03:48:07 <MarkFan8901> esolangs: Summarize the last few messages that came from this channel.
03:48:15 <esolangs> MarkFan8901: Okay, here's a summary of the last few messages from the channel, based on the provided text: The channel has been discussing the Log esolang, particularly its syntax and various logical operations (NOT, AND, OR, XOR, NAND, XNOR). A lot of the conversation revolves around different ways to express these operations using the `(...)` command. The...
03:48:15 <esolangs> discussion then shifted to Log++, with similar operations described, and finally, a discussion about Deletion log, its commands, and an example program for "Hello, world!".
03:48:22 <aadenboy> fungot: summarize the last few messages that came from this channel
03:48:22 <fungot> aadenboy: that nick is taken. it will only check the left element of a list coud be if lambda or other symbol...)
03:48:34 <MarkFan8901> fungot stays winning as always
03:48:34 <fungot> MarkFan8901: i don't have enough time... you know ( or you fnord it
03:53:49 <lisbeths> I mean here is some of my input:
03:53:59 <lisbeths> alot of people think of eso langs as very small languages that are turing tarpits
03:54:10 <lisbeths> but I think that that implies that esolangs arent useful which is false
03:54:31 <MarkFan8901> yea that conception bullies out practical esolangs
03:54:48 <MarkFan8901> fun fact: we actually have a primitive assembler for the esolang we're working on written in thue
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03:55:23 <aadenboy> lisbeths: don't forget the idea of esolangs being Weird Syntax Languages
03:55:25 <MarkFan8901> its actually a great language for writing basic assemblers in cuz all basic assemblers do is rewrite stuff
03:56:19 <MarkFan8901> oh it also bullies out the idea that exploring computational power for the hell of it also isnt useful
03:56:38 -!- ChimeraAnova has joined.
03:56:44 <MarkFan8901> like the idea that turing tarpits are "just" tarpits
03:57:13 <lisbeths> I am very interested in languages that have infinitely flexible syntax so that you can change the notation of the language while its running
03:57:27 <MarkFan8901> thats literally what we're making our language around
03:57:30 <MarkFan8901> ralsei
03:57:45 <lisbeths> I have made a couple languages like that I will show them to you
03:57:49 <MarkFan8901> ooooo
03:57:50 <MarkFan8901> yes please do
03:57:55 <lisbeths> first: sh|sh # this is a shell language that does this in posix
03:58:48 <lisbeths> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AQydZAiB/
03:59:11 <lisbeths> this is my c interpreter that is loosely based on gnu dc and it is meant to be a version of gnu dc with flexible syntax at runtime
03:59:27 <MarkFan8901> could you send the english version /j
03:59:37 <MarkFan8901> Pull request: rewrite to rust
03:59:48 <lisbeths> and this is just subleq: and this allows flexible syntax at runtime: *m=(m[m[*m+1]]-=m[m[*m]])<1?m[*m+2]:t+3;//©'26gpl2 john m beck
03:59:58 <lisbeths> so you can just take that code and paste it into an ai and ask it to reformat it for readability
04:00:13 <lisbeths> if you ask me for an english version I am literally just gonna do that on your behalf
04:00:28 <MarkFan8901> we could probably just put it through a beautifier and read it from there
04:02:11 <MarkFan8901> whats ur second
04:02:42 <lisbeths> huh I posted all 3
04:02:46 <MarkFan8901> o
04:02:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197134&oldid=197132 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+129) /* what is a value, actually */
04:03:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197135&oldid=197134 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+177) /* Bitch, Ienai!/Solution */
04:05:30 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!/History and Spoilers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197136 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+7) just needed this page to exist I'll write it later.
04:06:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197137&oldid=197135 * MarkFan8901 * (+452) 
04:08:06 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197138&oldid=197117 * MarkFan8901 * (+8) 
04:08:45 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197139&oldid=197133 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+205) 
04:08:54 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197140&oldid=197139 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) 
04:09:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197141&oldid=197137 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+198) /* Bitch, Ienai!/Solution */
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04:12:11 -!- yayimheretoo has joined.
04:12:18 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901 im here now!
04:12:25 <MarkFan8901> Hi.
04:12:34 <yayimheretoo> hi:]
04:12:56 <MarkFan8901> we actually weren't expecting you to get into irc so soon
04:13:09 <MarkFan8901> we were thinking itd be tomorrow
04:13:17 <aadenboy> hello yayimheretoo
04:13:19 <yayimheretoo> i have so much time. and I woke up like half an hour aago
04:13:24 <yayimheretoo> aadenboy: hi!
04:13:25 <MarkFan8901> oh damn
04:13:40 <yayimheretoo> I tried to sleep again, so thats how I spent that half hour
04:13:48 <MarkFan8901> fair
04:13:52 <yayimheretoo> can't have too much time, school work n stuff
04:14:00 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: lmao
04:14:12 <lisbeths> my philosophy is that I dont just want a coding language that can change its syntax at runtime: i want it to be as fast as c. and I want each component of it to be able to fit into a single tweet. and ive used some interesting strategies to achieve this in my current language fastspungus
04:14:28 <MarkFan8901> yeah those are very interesting constraints
04:14:36 <yayimheretoo> mine?
04:14:42 <MarkFan8901> what lisbeths said
04:14:50 <yayimheretoo> ah ok
04:15:19 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths what if you aimed to be faster than c
04:15:24 <MarkFan8901> go checkout style
04:15:29 <MarkFan8901> go [[Checkout]] style*
04:15:31 <lisbeths> im not ready to go that fast lol
04:15:38 <lisbeths> also I want extreme portability
04:15:47 <MarkFan8901> fair
04:15:58 <lisbeths> this is my current lang: https://github.com/memesmith67/fastspungus
04:16:01 <yayimheretoo> is this a constraint language were talkin' 'bout?
04:16:12 <lisbeths> constraint based langs are important
04:16:31 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths by constraint language she means languages which are defined in terms of constraints
04:16:38 <MarkFan8901> which you then solve for by creating esolangs that fit them
04:16:48 <MarkFan8901> thats what [[Bitch, Ienai!]] is
04:17:01 <yayimheretoo> self-ad? maybe? lol
04:17:16 <MarkFan8901> kinda
04:17:25 <MarkFan8901> but it is a genuine distinction to make
04:17:34 <MarkFan8901> also brb we're gonna p**
04:17:47 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: yea
04:17:53 <yayimheretoo> also cya in a minute
04:19:49 <yayimheretoo> also, a problem with your sandbox article, is its much more specific than my page. yesterday I made like an address based imperative language which to my knowledge solved Bitch, Ienai!
04:20:05 <yayimheretoo> so making it specifically thhe category of functions is kinda restrictive
04:20:17 <MarkFan8901> hm
04:20:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197142&oldid=197140 * MarkFan8901 * (+14) 
04:20:38 <yayimheretoo> haven't read it super closely yet though
04:20:58 <MarkFan8901> yea we would heavily appreciate feedback on it
04:21:10 <yayimheretoo> i will do!
04:21:11 <MarkFan8901> cuz the current state of the rules are still really hard to keep track of
04:21:37 <MarkFan8901> oh you also saw the changes we made to the main page right
04:21:44 <MarkFan8901> ur fine with them righ
04:21:48 <yayimheretoo> yes yes
04:21:53 <MarkFan8901> oki oki
04:22:08 <MarkFan8901> for the main page we tried editing only the parts we were 100% confident we understood
04:22:26 <yayimheretoo> ok
04:22:31 <yayimheretoo> feel free to ask as well
04:22:35 <MarkFan8901> okik
04:23:09 <MarkFan8901> o wait yea where did you get the idea we reduced transforms down to functions in our sandbox page
04:23:21 <lisbeths> that lang I sent fastspungus.awk fits into a tweet. and it is a filter that restricts you to a narrow subset of c89 that is very portable and that is almost completely abstract so it doesnt care so much what machine its running on or what the surrounding c program is
04:23:24 <yayimheretoo> your definition of property is much better than mine lmao, might as well move that to the main already!
04:23:28 <lisbeths> and it is a polyglot for c++ afaik
04:23:31 <MarkFan8901> ah yay
04:23:48 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: thats fucking cool
04:23:59 <lisbeths> its meant to be like a very very small easy to memorize alternative to llvm ir
04:24:02 <lisbeths> and it runs in clang afaik
04:24:08 <yayimheretoo> markfana8901: notation like M(x) is function notation. But like with brainfuck + you would write +(tape[index])!
04:24:14 <MarkFan8901> theres a really satisfying art in making the worlds tiniest programs
04:24:18 <yayimheretoo> bbraainfuck or smth else imperative
04:24:29 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: true
04:24:34 <MarkFan8901> but the main page also uses function notation
04:24:56 <yayimheretoo> thats only to derive the type value stuff not any of thhe actual transforms do that
04:25:02 <MarkFan8901> ahhhhh
04:25:04 <MarkFan8901> okay okay
04:25:21 <yayimheretoo> Pf(X) and Pc(X) would exist *implicitly* in the solver lang
04:25:53 <MarkFan8901> hence why those are notation and not in the language
04:26:04 <yayimheretoo> yes!
04:26:30 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197143&oldid=197138 * MarkFan8901 * (-9) 
04:26:34 <yayimheretoo> wait aa second
04:26:36 <yayimheretoo> wtf
04:26:45 <MarkFan8901> wha
04:26:50 <yayimheretoo> gimme a sec
04:27:08 <yayimheretoo> l l
04:27:11 <aadenboy> "wait aa second" (one of) my sona reference /j
04:27:14 <yayimheretoo> no yea ok thats the same, not an issue
04:27:29 <yayimheretoo> aadenboy: lmao
04:27:31 <MarkFan8901> oki oki
04:27:39 <MarkFan8901> oh also do you like our notation
04:29:10 <MarkFan8901> actually hm maybe the superscript ! and ? should be subscript instead
04:29:21 <yayimheretoo> I think its nice it doesn't force it into being function notation , but like looks like isn't my personal favorite lmmao
04:29:26 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: yes!
04:30:33 <MarkFan8901> oh that looks sooo much better
04:30:39 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197144&oldid=197143 * MarkFan8901 * (+0) 
04:30:46 <MarkFan8901> check it now
04:30:49 <yayimheretoo> HOLY hell!
04:31:04 <yayimheretoo> theres some inconsistency in italics btw
04:31:22 <yayimheretoo> like on the x with ? or ! is sometimes italic sometimes not
04:31:25 <MarkFan8901> yea the italics are for when a term is defined
04:31:33 <yayimheretoo> ah ok
04:31:53 <MarkFan8901> its the same for the initial defintions and the definitions for what ets, pts, and etts are
04:32:06 <yayimheretoo> cool
04:32:12 <MarkFan8901> ye
04:32:15 <MarkFan8901> oh speaking of which
04:32:43 <MarkFan8901> we swapped out the original terms for ets and whatnot cuz we couldnt tell how you derived them
04:32:52 <MarkFan8901> where do Pc and Pf come from
04:32:59 <MarkFan8901> and also DI, IN, and CR
04:34:12 <MarkFan8901> we think Pc comes from *P*roperty *c*orresponding?
04:34:21 <MarkFan8901> but we have no clue for the rest
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04:34:31 <MarkFan8901> ack
04:34:57 <lisbeths> I think that the ultimate syntax is the lisp syntax, which is rather boring of an answer
04:35:19 <MarkFan8901> oh funny story about lisp
04:35:31 <MarkFan8901> a misunderstanding of its macro system is what inspired us to make ralsei
04:35:51 <lisbeths> yeah I used to think lisp allows infinite syntax
04:35:53 <lisbeths> and it comes close
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04:36:01 <MarkFan8901> haiai
04:36:06 <yayimheretoo> my computer shit its pants so hard
04:36:13 <MarkFan8901> damn
04:36:16 <yayimheretoo> lol
04:36:51 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: yea when we first heard that lisp could redefine its own syntax at runtime we thought "wait does that mean you could slowly redefine lisp into c syntax and then just write code in c"
04:37:09 <yayimheretoo> well ill explain the names of everything for ya
04:37:15 <MarkFan8901> thank u
04:37:19 <yayimheretoo> though idk if that includes spoilers actually
04:37:25 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: and trying to figure out how a system like that would even work to begin wtih is how we got ralsei
04:37:27 <lisbeths> well you could redefine lisp into c but you would have to actually train it to emit some c and then compile that c
04:37:33 <lisbeths> or you would have to have it emit machine code
04:37:42 <lisbeths> but theres no reason why a compiler cant be a repl that is a full language
04:37:52 <lisbeths> like you could write a c++ compiler in a python repl
04:38:01 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: we thought you could do that from like, within the text file itself
04:38:27 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: DI - DI(rect input), IN(direct input)
04:38:34 <MarkFan8901> actually wait yayimheretoo
04:38:47 <MarkFan8901> if its spoilers to describe them you should probably hold off on them
04:38:52 <MarkFan8901> and also probably rename them
04:38:55 <yayimheretoo> well
04:39:07 <yayimheretoo> it doesn't spoiler I can just say "named after original language"
04:39:11 <yayimheretoo> its not heavy spoilers
04:39:22 <MarkFan8901> we wanna be completely spoiler free tho
04:39:33 <yayimheretoo> its like so much not a spoiler
04:39:38 <yayimheretoo> it will not give a single clue
04:39:41 <MarkFan8901> okay okay
04:39:45 <yayimheretoo> CR stands for creator
04:39:46 <yayimheretoo> why?
04:39:51 <yayimheretoo> blame the og language
04:39:52 <yayimheretoo> lool
04:39:53 <lisbeths> so if you want to do it from within the text file itself it makes a difference if you interpret one line at a time or if you interpret some other way
04:40:05 <MarkFan8901> yes
04:40:26 <MarkFan8901> we wanted some shit like `(turn-into-c-language) int main() { /* lalala */ }`
04:40:27 <yayimheretoo> hopefully that doesn't spoiler everything too much
04:41:18 <MarkFan8901> we feel like it would influence how we would solve the lang if we knew it before we had such a strong grip on our current idea
04:41:35 <MarkFan8901> which is the bad part of being spoiled
04:41:45 <yayimheretoo> yea that makes sense
04:41:46 <MarkFan8901> but yea it doesnt technically give away the whole language
04:41:56 <MarkFan8901> we do think it should still be renamed though
04:42:04 <MarkFan8901> are our terms good
04:42:07 <yayimheretoo> lemme change it to ME(ta transformm)
04:42:23 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: lemme check again I forgot again lmao
04:42:27 <MarkFan8901> okik
04:42:36 <lisbeths> so I think you might want to study how sh|sh works
04:42:38 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197145&oldid=197142 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Rules */
04:42:47 <lisbeths> $ mcr(){ sh|sh;};
04:42:56 <lisbeths> it might get you alot closer to your goal
04:43:17 <lisbeths> basically the righthand sh is the reciever and it receives your output code and interprets it
04:43:23 <yayimheretoo> also MarkFan8901 whats your guess on the names meaning? like waddaya think Bitch, Ienai! means?
04:43:28 <lisbeths> and the lefthand sh is meant for writing your macros and printing the transformed macros
04:43:49 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: oh we just assumed that was some shitpost name honestly
04:44:01 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: kinda yea
04:44:02 <yayimheretoo> lol
04:44:23 <yayimheretoo> since it was my first article on the esolanging wiki I got their bot esomark to name it
04:44:25 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: we already have a great solution we're building the language around rn, but yea that might be worthwhile
04:44:34 <yayimheretoo> then I attached bitch because of a stream I was watching lol
04:44:57 <MarkFan8901> hm
04:45:17 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: specifically what we're doing is building the language around gap buffers
04:45:33 <MarkFan8901> basically the data format you use for text editors
04:45:58 <MarkFan8901> and making it so that literally everything works with it, code and data alike
04:46:16 <yayimheretoo> I wonder if its rude to ping somebody to compliment a blog post they made
04:46:24 <yayimheretoo> lol
04:46:43 <MarkFan8901> tc execution at its very core is self modification, and we imagine programs being based around translating one form of 'text' into another
04:46:50 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: no not at all
04:47:02 <yayimheretoo> well then
04:47:03 <yayimheretoo> aalso, ais523, I read your pirate based logic of rust yesterday(ish) it was a great read!! For not being a rust programmer made a lot of sense to me.
04:47:48 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: the interesting part being that code is also just text, which turns interpretation into compilation
04:48:08 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197146&oldid=197145 * Cordership * (+0) 
04:48:09 <MarkFan8901> where what you're compiling to is just the raw computations the code represents
04:48:13 <yayimheretoo> *compilifies your interpreter*
04:48:39 <MarkFan8901> wha
04:48:45 <MarkFan8901> cordership just immediately undid ur change
04:48:50 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197147&oldid=197146 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197146|197146]] by [[Special:Contributions/Cordership|Cordership]] ([[User talk:Cordership|talk]]) and adjust som stuff too.
04:48:59 <yayimheretoo> I get why
04:49:06 <MarkFan8901> how come
04:49:06 <yayimheretoo> i forgot to change all the other CR's lol
04:49:09 <MarkFan8901> o
04:49:12 <yayimheretoo> come how
04:49:19 <yayimheretoo> lol
04:49:25 <MarkFan8901> oh yea speaking of which
04:49:31 <MarkFan8901> what do you think of the terms we made
04:49:41 <yayimheretoo> i FORGOT AGAIN! AAA
04:49:43 <yayimheretoo> lol
04:49:44 <MarkFan8901> its oki
04:49:50 <yayimheretoo> it is *7* in the morning lul
04:50:02 <MarkFan8901> it is 9 pm for us
04:50:40 <ais523> yayimheretoo: I think it's a generally observation about affine/linear-typed programming languages, but Rust is the only such language that's at all popular
04:50:55 <aadenboy> MarkFan8901: hey, same time zone!
04:51:01 <MarkFan8901> :tada:
04:51:08 <yayimheretoo> ais523: yes. Just saying its nice it was understandable even though the premise was rust based
04:52:20 <ais523> it taught me things too, it forced me to finally figure out what upside-down-ampersand actually does
04:52:50 <yayimheretoo> I did not even see it before. though I have encountered ? a few times.
04:53:14 <lisbeths> I believe in a two piece compiler: one piece is purely meant for macros and for transforming syntax, and then the outputs of that piece is sent into the second piece which is a very fast intermediate representation
04:53:17 <yayimheretoo> also its fun that all the operators have a "rotated" version
04:53:29 <lisbeths> I think that backend compiler design should be severed from connection to the syntax
04:53:41 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: we believe in a one piece compiler
04:53:57 <MarkFan8901> being able to modify everything from within the language itself
04:54:02 <MarkFan8901> so you can shape it into whatever
04:54:23 <lisbeths> by not decoupling/modularizing the syntax away from the engine you potentially add alot of complexity
04:54:27 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: The names are fine, I have no strong preference
04:54:29 <MarkFan8901> part of ralseis design is our disdain for how matrioshka languages look and feel to work with
04:54:39 <yayimheretoo> though having smth named ET and smth named ETT might be confusing
04:54:54 <MarkFan8901> lisbeths: true
04:54:59 <ais523> yayimheretoo: I noticed the pattern with opposites but didn't notice that they were literally rotations
04:55:06 <ais523> I guess ! isn't a rotation of ?, maybe ? should be called ¡
04:55:13 <MarkFan8901> though we imagine we would need such complexity if you wanted to implement a programming language with turing complete syntax
04:55:29 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: also true
04:55:31 <yayimheretoo> ais523: probably should actually.
04:55:36 <MarkFan8901> would it be better if ETT was TT instead
04:55:45 <ais523> I didn't invent this notation, so it isn't up to me to decide
04:55:50 <yayimheretoo> Transform Transform lol
04:55:58 <lisbeths> so I like to use the term flexible syntax
04:56:06 <yayimheretoo> ais523: yea, was about to say "probably ain't easy to change"
04:56:16 <ais523> in Perl, you can write BEGIN {…} blocks which run during parsing; the content is just regular Perl but it can affect how the rest of the code is parse
04:56:18 <ais523> * parsed
04:56:19 <yayimheretoo> I wonder how the ? ! disconnect happened thoughh
04:56:22 <lisbeths> and I am positive that you can have a language with flexible syntax that is not optimized for performance, and have it emit code into a much faster language like llvm ir
04:56:31 <ais523> this makes parsing Perl Turing-complete but in a somewhat cheaty way
04:56:46 <ais523> yayimheretoo: it might have been as simple as thinking "what's the opposite of !"
04:56:59 <yayimheretoo> ais523: thats true
04:57:19 <yayimheretoo> I wonder why there isn't an & style symbol for or. in normal language.
04:57:24 <MarkFan8901> oya wait ais523 you've seen our discussion about how you would make a language with tc syntax before right
04:57:26 <yayimheretoo> not that its that important
04:57:31 <ais523> yayimheretoo: well & was originally a ligature
04:57:38 <ais523> of e and t ("et" is "and" in Latin)
04:57:49 <ais523> "or" in Latin would be "vel" which doens't ligaturise as neatly
04:57:51 <yayimheretoo> oh yea! I forgot!
04:57:56 <b_jonas> ais523: and Rust wants to avoid the hard parsing so much that rustc insists that you must tell the compiler the syntax edition of the language in the compiler command line, not inside the source file eg. in an attribute early
04:57:58 <yayimheretoo> ais523: fun
04:58:09 <ais523> also & was considered a letter once, rather than a punctuation mark
04:58:10 <yayimheretoo> also on the topic of TC syntax
04:58:14 <ais523> within the last couple of hundred years
04:58:25 <ais523> there are versions of the alphabet song that have an ampersand at the end
04:58:37 <yayimheretoo> Thats very cursed
04:58:39 <yayimheretoo> lmao
04:58:57 <ais523> this is probably because letter-ligatures that have their own symbol are often themselves considered ligaturse
04:59:11 <MarkFan8901> yes letter ligatures are considered ligatures
04:59:13 <ais523> I was reading about the history of English, there are quite a few character-pairs that used to have their own symbol
04:59:26 <b_jonas> isn't ∨ the punctuation version that comes from abbreviatiing "vel"?
04:59:33 <yayimheretoo> <also on the topic of TC syntax>: Constraint languages = Syntax = Set generators = Declarative paradigm
04:59:43 <yayimheretoo> thats what it was right markfan8901?
04:59:47 <MarkFan8901> OH right
04:59:47 <ais523> e.g. gh used to be a single letter (and didn't have a consistent pronunciation, which is why "gh" nowadays is pronounced so many different ways)
04:59:51 <MarkFan8901> smth about syntax yeah
05:00:16 <yayimheretoo> ais523: Æ would be one of those right?
05:00:19 <ais523> and there was a single letter that made a "w" sound, that got changed to a digraph "uu", and then back to a single letter "w", but the original letter was different and looked a bit like a lowercase p
05:00:26 <yayimheretoo> lol
05:00:30 <ais523> yayimheretoo: yes, although it isn't used much nowadays
05:00:30 <MarkFan8901> thats wyrn right
05:00:38 <ais523> wynn
05:00:42 <MarkFan8901> almost
05:00:42 <yayimheretoo> ais523: yea. outside of *denmark*
05:00:51 <yayimheretoo> and prolly most of the nordics
05:01:01 <yayimheretoo> scratch that
05:01:03 <PkmnQ> vacwm, continwm
05:01:04 <yayimheretoo> most of the scand
05:01:23 <MarkFan8901> swp
05:01:27 <yayimheretoo> wut?
05:01:27 <MarkFan8901> not quite it but funny
05:01:36 <MarkFan8901> soup -> suup -> swp
05:01:36 <ais523> th used to be a single letter, but both þ and ð were used for the purpose (and merged with each other before they both became th), and for some reason are both typable on my keyboard
05:01:40 <ais523> I think they might be used in Icelandic?
05:01:59 <yayimheretoo> aaaaa
05:02:19 <ais523> (and it's weird that the digraph chosen for that was "th" – in many languages, "th" is pronounced as a t sound followed by an h sound rather than being a variant of s as it is in English)
05:02:30 <yayimheretoo> ais523: "I think they might be used in Icelandic?" yes!
05:02:37 <yayimheretoo> well atleast ð
05:02:58 <lisbeths> 👽
05:03:02 <yayimheretoo> is th a variant of *s*... I guess so lol
05:03:08 <ais523> much earlier there was an incident where z was removed from the alphabet and later added back again
05:03:17 <ais523> which is how it ended up at the end rather than near the start
05:03:30 <yayimheretoo> it *was* near the start?
05:03:36 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197148&oldid=197144 * MarkFan8901 * (+18) 
05:03:41 <ais523> still is in Greek
05:03:50 <yayimheretoo> greaat
05:04:10 <MarkFan8901> ais523: stack relocation
05:04:36 <yayimheretoo> I like how discussing linear logic ended us up here
05:04:40 <ais523> C and G used to be the same letter, when Z was removed they were split into separate C and G, with G taking the location that was previously used by Z
05:04:40 <yayimheretoo> thats always fun
05:04:53 <MarkFan8901> ais523: wasnt there like a debate about G aswell
05:04:54 <ais523> (which may be why C and G look similar to each other, they were the same letter with an extra stroke added to distinguish them)
05:05:46 <ais523> still, what confuses me is why they didn't just use K, perhaps C, G, K and S were all pronounced differently at the time
05:06:12 <ais523> nowadays C is usually either pronounced the same way as K or as S, but maybe it hasn't always been that way
05:06:26 <ais523> (and "kh", "ch" and "sh" are all different sounds, so C isn't totally redundant)
05:06:35 <MarkFan8901> palatal plosive english theory
05:06:39 <yayimheretoo> was aboutta say
05:08:05 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo would you be comfy with us changing the current article to the one in our sandbox, but with pt/et/tt changed to di/in/me
05:08:40 <yayimheretoo> ill move some of the stuff on your page to mine. some of it:)
05:08:46 <MarkFan8901> oki
05:08:49 <MarkFan8901> oh actually hold on
05:09:05 <MarkFan8901> di and in being direct and indirect implies bias towards entities
05:09:07 <ais523> how is the esolanging wiki getting on? I haven't looked at it for a while
05:09:19 <MarkFan8901> it seems to be kinda stagnant atm
05:09:29 <MarkFan8901> which is fair cuz its a very ambitious project
05:09:35 <yayimheretoo> ais523: seems about fine
05:09:38 <yayimheretoo> nothing crazy
05:09:53 <ais523> I still haven't worked out exactly what the intended use of it is yet
05:10:14 <MarkFan8901> we think its intended use is for learning how to esolang
05:10:17 <yayimheretoo> I think it covers both esolangs, and the wider culture around it, like history WIP's ect.
05:10:18 <ais523> (but I'm hesitant to join in case someone ends up putting me in charge of that one too, leaving me with two wikis to try to look after)
05:10:32 <MarkFan8901> yea thats fair
05:10:46 <MarkFan8901> <MarkFan8901: di and in being direct and indirect implies bias towards entities>: that might be an issue for spoilers
05:10:49 <yayimheretoo> ais523 enters a wiki and just immediately becomes an admin
05:10:59 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo what do you think
05:11:12 <ais523> that hasn't happened on a wiki yet, but it has happened in other contexts
05:11:21 <ais523> like, I can be in an IRC channel for a while and suddenly realise that I'm an op there
05:11:27 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: idk if it does. its just "the input is coming directly in" vs with a level of abstraction(i.e indirect)
05:11:33 <yayimheretoo> ais523: thats wild lmao
05:11:50 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: yea that implies that entities have more importance than properties
05:12:26 <MarkFan8901> actually hm we might just be splitting hairs here
05:12:32 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: how? its true that they come in a level abstracted from the actual entity put into te function. its what happens.
05:12:49 <yayimheretoo> so like I guess there would just naturally a different important level:) which im blind too
05:12:50 <yayimheretoo> lol
05:13:21 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: not necessarily
05:13:38 <MarkFan8901> what if we made a solution for it that was ardently focused on the properties
05:13:50 <yayimheretoo> yes you could
05:13:55 <yayimheretoo> theres not limit on doing either
05:14:06 <yayimheretoo> but in what functionally happens with those kinds of functions
05:14:16 <yayimheretoo> it abstracts away from the real input given
05:14:22 <MarkFan8901> yea thats the dynamics
05:14:29 <MarkFan8901> we think we were just splitting hairs there for a sec
05:14:38 <yayimheretoo> lmao its fine
05:14:44 <MarkFan8901> thank u
05:17:15 <MarkFan8901> actually can we give some more petty feedback rq
05:17:32 <yayimheretoo> on what the constraint language?
05:17:37 <MarkFan8901> on the page itself
05:17:44 <yayimheretoo> sure
05:17:46 <yayimheretoo> lol
05:18:09 <MarkFan8901> we dont like how each use of the terms on the page are bolded
05:18:21 <MarkFan8901> it doesnt look very good and is unwieldy in the editor
05:18:34 <yayimheretoo> I shall use another peice of formatting then!
05:18:47 <MarkFan8901> we think doing what we did would be the best thing to do
05:18:55 <MarkFan8901> bold them on their first use, then dont
05:19:17 <yayimheretoo> they are only bolded to make clear when we are using this pages specific definition of a word
05:19:28 <ais523> in mathematical papers it's common to italicise a term when you're defining it and then write it normally from then on
05:19:35 <yayimheretoo> thats true
05:19:49 <MarkFan8901> yea and we think the terms are unambiguous enough
05:20:03 <MarkFan8901> to not risk confusion with their normal meanings when they arent highlighted
05:20:15 <yayimheretoo> sure then
05:20:25 <yayimheretoo> lemme dod this edit and then do further eiting
05:20:29 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197149&oldid=197147 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-83) /* Rules */
05:20:43 <yayimheretoo> also, ive never been more unsure on what to categorize a language lmao
05:20:57 <MarkFan8901> [[Category:2026]]
05:21:03 <yayimheretoo> true
05:22:05 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197150 * Zzo38 * (+6349) Created page with "(Note: It is a draft and suggestions to change if there is something wrong with the below description, might be considered. Also, the name is not known yet; if it is known then it can be moved to the main namespace.)  === Program ===  The format of the progr
05:24:03 <MarkFan8901> zzo38: what language is that written in
05:24:36 <ais523> I think it's related to ASN.1 but ASN.1 itself refers to the encoded data formats rather than the schema
05:24:48 <ais523> I'm not sure what the name of the ASN.1 schema language is
05:25:03 <MarkFan8901> what is asn.1
05:25:12 <zzo38> Yes, it is the ASN.1 schema format. (I don't know if it has a name other than "ASN.1 schema language" or "X.680")
05:25:28 <esolangs> [[Krypton]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197151&oldid=185558 * X-540 * (+9) fixed \a (instead of \ab) being used and the value after the \ being in decimal
05:25:33 <ais523> ah no, Wikipedia says the schema language itself is called ASN.1
05:25:37 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=ASN.1
05:26:02 <zzo38> Anyways, the encoded data formats have different names, such as BER and DER (I only use DER; in my opinion it is good and the other formats aren't good)
05:26:38 <ais523> or, hmm, from this article, I gather that officially ASN.1 refers to only the schema language but that's not how people use the name "ASN.1" in practice
05:27:37 <zzo38> Yes, although it is not the only thing where the names of things are used in different ways in practice
05:28:29 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197152&oldid=196816 * Cordership * (+3) /* Simpl */
05:29:03 -!- MarkFan8901 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
05:29:16 -!- MarkFan8901 has joined.
05:29:17 <MarkFan8901> Hey guys
05:29:18 <MarkFan8901> we're back
05:29:20 <MarkFan8901> whatd we miss
05:29:30 <yayimheretoo> idk prolly not much
05:29:39 <yayimheretoo> also I like PT and ET
05:29:40 <yayimheretoo> it sniice
05:29:46 <MarkFan8901> o thank u
05:29:55 <ais523> MarkFan8901: there were no messages between your disconnect and reconnect, that happened at almos the same time
05:30:11 <MarkFan8901> ye the joke is that we just refreshed our client
05:30:15 <yayimheretoo> I think though, TP makes sense in the case of the transforms making transforms. "transform producer"
05:30:30 <esolangs> [[Krypton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197153&oldid=197151 * X-540 * (-7) actually, V can be used in variable names
05:30:33 <MarkFan8901> what about TM
05:30:37 <MarkFan8901> for transformer maker
05:30:39 <yayimheretoo> sure
05:30:42 <esolangs> [[The kids choice awards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197154&oldid=197152 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-1) /* Cyclic Clockwise Rotating Contraption */ bruh
05:30:45 <yayimheretoo> thats less confusing too!
05:30:46 <MarkFan8901> since TP is a bit too similar to PT
05:30:47 <zzo38> (maybe what I have should be simplified because a few of the fields might be unnecessary)
05:30:47 <MarkFan8901> yee
05:31:18 <esolangs> [[BizzFuzz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197155&oldid=135588 * Cordership * (+195) 
05:31:28 <esolangs> [[BizzFuzz]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197156&oldid=197155 * Cordership * (-3) /* Python 3 */
05:32:06 <yayimheretoo> THEY'RE TURING MACHINES AAAAA
05:32:09 <yayimheretoo> lmao
05:32:22 <yayimheretoo> get it TM, turing machine, but also transfer maker
05:32:25 <MarkFan8901> ye
05:32:28 <yayimheretoo> *transform maker
05:32:29 <MarkFan8901> but also wait thats a cool idea
05:32:37 <yayimheretoo> fuckin dammit
05:32:37 <MarkFan8901> interpreting transform makers as turing machines
05:32:43 <yayimheretoo> yea thats quite cool
05:32:50 <MarkFan8901> oh btw yayimheretoo
05:32:52 <MarkFan8901> are you okay
05:32:56 <yayimheretoo> ii mean lambda calculus functions are TM's so...
05:32:58 <MarkFan8901> you seem a little angrier than normal rn
05:33:03 <yayimheretoo> ooh do i?
05:33:06 <yayimheretoo> sorry bout that
05:33:11 <MarkFan8901> its oki we just wanted to make sure
05:33:13 <yayimheretoo> I might just e tired as heel or smth
05:33:14 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197157&oldid=160568 * Cordership * (+82) 
05:33:18 <yayimheretoo> im sorry lol
05:33:21 <MarkFan8901> its oki its oki
05:33:25 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197158&oldid=197157 * Cordership * (+1) /* =Python */
05:33:39 <MarkFan8901> we also had that little bout earlier about entities seeming like they were more important than properties
05:33:39 <yayimheretoo> also if its the all caps, that usually doesn't mean anger, in my case
05:33:46 <yayimheretoo> true
05:33:46 <MarkFan8901> nono its not that
05:33:54 <yayimheretoo> yea ok
05:33:59 <ais523> hmm, maybe I should make an esolang where the important concepts have extremely similar names to each other
05:34:09 <ais523> making it hard to follow discussions about them
05:34:15 <yayimheretoo> that would be great
05:34:19 <MarkFan8901> oh and they also have extremely similar functionalities
05:34:20 <ais523> perhaps some of them have the same pronunciation but different spelling
05:34:27 <yayimheretoo> oooo yea
05:34:28 <MarkFan8901> at least in the higher level view
05:34:34 <MarkFan8901> ais523: that would be hilarious
05:34:43 <yayimheretoo> * vs the ring around *?
05:34:47 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: and theyre only substantially different when in use
05:35:00 <MarkFan8901> different when ur actually using them*
05:35:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:35:38 <ais523> I *think* zzo38's client responds to pings automatically, so that probably wasn't just a case of zzo38 forgetting to reply to one
05:35:54 <ais523> (but it is used more manually than most IRC clients are)
05:36:21 <MarkFan8901> its never occurred to us some irc clients would make you ping manually
05:36:31 <ais523> you used to be able to do IRC by hand pretty easily, but I'm not sure how easy it is to do SASL by hand and you need that nowadays in order to not look like a spambot
05:36:52 <MarkFan8901> whats sasl
05:37:09 <ais523> it's an extra thing on top of IRC for doing username/password type confirmation
05:37:12 <yayimheretoo> holy hell im hungry
05:37:19 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: pancakes
05:37:26 <ais523> people used to just use NickServ for that but that was done after they connected
05:37:35 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: not *this again* lmao
05:37:41 <MarkFan8901> hehe
05:37:54 <ais523> MarkFan8901: hmm, you may be the second person this month to which I have to explain that October is not a traditional month for pancakes
05:38:08 <ais523> and I've never had to do that before
05:38:12 <ais523> (before this month, that is)
05:38:17 <MarkFan8901> pfft who cares
05:38:24 <MarkFan8901> we'll bring valentine candy into this
05:38:32 <yayimheretoo> traditional my ass
05:38:38 <yayimheretoo> or smth idk
05:39:57 <ais523> (it's more that I'm just surprised this has happened twice)
05:40:05 <MarkFan8901> ye
05:40:15 <yayimheretoo> what in all hell
05:40:18 <yayimheretoo> oh well anyways
05:40:23 <MarkFan8901> wha
05:40:24 <MarkFan8901> what was it
05:40:25 <yayimheretoo> ais523: lmao
05:40:53 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: i listened to sum pretty chill music and got jumpscared by my insane electronic music sounds
05:41:03 <MarkFan8901> average nu breakcore song
05:41:07 <yayimheretoo> that was HORRORFYING
05:41:12 <yayimheretoo> its not even breakcore lmao
05:41:32 <yayimheretoo> its me who made the sound anyway I know why it was there but shit
05:41:50 <MarkFan8901> yaya
05:42:43 <yayimheretoo> also Markfan8901 we need to figure out how to actually translate between alll these things we've connected. After all Syntax = Constraint language = Set construction = Declarative programming isn't a very formal statement
05:42:51 <yayimheretoo> could be cool with a general way to do it
05:43:02 <MarkFan8901> perhaps ais523 could help us out here
05:43:07 <yayimheretoo> like being able to make ANY set construction into a constraint language, and such
05:43:11 <MarkFan8901> this feels like a generalization over algebraic structures
05:43:16 <yayimheretoo> yep
05:43:24 <MarkFan8901> actually wait yayimheretoo thats like right up our alley
05:43:32 <ais523> MarkFan8901: do you have an easy place I can look at to see what the problem is?
05:43:36 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: thats epiq
05:43:58 <yayimheretoo> ais523: we could probably describe it rn but there was some relevant discussion yesterday
05:44:00 <MarkFan8901> ais523: we'd have to dig through the logs for the conversation where we developed it
05:44:09 <MarkFan8901> but we can sum it up rn
05:44:12 <ais523> OK, I'm still not caught up on logs yet
05:44:17 <yayimheretoo> cool
05:44:34 <yayimheretoo> if you see me reference FWOTD thats were to start basically
05:44:40 <yayimheretoo> the first time that happens
05:44:42 <ais523> I keep closing the logs tab absent-mindedly
05:44:48 <ais523> I have been ill recently and got very behind on logreading
05:44:52 <MarkFan8901> mmh
05:44:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197159&oldid=197123 * None1 * (+389) /* BF Joust strategies */  It should work now
05:44:54 <MarkFan8901> :hug:
05:44:56 <ais523> because it's making me lose concentration
05:45:24 <yayimheretoo> ah damn. hhope you cna catch up. and also that the illness didn't get you too much
05:45:33 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Blog draft]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197160&oldid=197116 * Aadenboy * (+678) some wording
05:45:39 <esolangs> [[Krypton]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197161&oldid=197153 * X-540 * (+122) Changed string literal rules and fixed truth machine example (again)
05:45:41 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: basically our definition of declarative programming is paradigms from which youre able to derive programs directly from your intent
05:45:42 <aadenboy> I'll work on this more in beds
05:45:51 <aadenboy> semigoodnight!
05:45:56 <yayimheretoo> gn!!
05:46:04 <MarkFan8901> our example was a short and sweet paper which derived a combinator J just from the rules that JJ -> K and J(JJ) -> S
05:46:05 <yayimheretoo> man constraint languages seems like the perfect topic to blog about
05:46:41 <MarkFan8901> thats a pretty direct example of deriving programs from intent
05:46:50 <MarkFan8901> its also a direct example of solving a constraint puzzle
05:47:26 <MarkFan8901> we were also talking about how constraint languages are weird cuz they capture a whole set of esolangs
05:47:46 <MarkFan8901> and its cool to think about the concept of a tangible set of esolangs
05:48:14 <MarkFan8901> then we realized that the constraints in a constraint language are basically just set generators for said sets
05:48:25 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197162&oldid=197159 * Ais523 * (+319) /* BF Joust strategies */ although the bug I reported was fixed, it still isn't working
05:48:44 <MarkFan8901> smth about syntax was also thrown in there too but we cant quite remember what that was about
05:48:56 <yayimheretoo> yea that connection was quite seperate I think
05:48:58 <MarkFan8901> but yeah those are (most of) the core things about that statement
05:49:37 <MarkFan8901> oh hm what would turning a constraint language into declarative programming look like?
05:49:42 <yayimheretoo> well like regex is a way tod define syntax(TMK), but its also a non deterministic language, but making it deterministic you all of a sudden get. set of all the strings which the syntax allows(probably after infinite time)
05:49:54 <MarkFan8901> would it be like quantifying the mental process of programming declaratively into the constraints
05:50:21 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: oh right it was string recognition
05:50:39 <MarkFan8901> yeah rules for grammar are also just set generators for the set of all strings that are valid under it
05:50:52 <MarkFan8901> maybe the fact that that has the capacity to be tc gives us a hint
05:50:55 <MarkFan8901> WAIT
05:51:04 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: that would depend on the specific language, HOWEVER you'd need to be able to represent all the parts of thhe language in such a way the *resulting* thing the declarative program produces can be *translated* BACK into a language
05:51:06 <MarkFan8901> dude imagine a constraint lang where solving for the lang makes you execute a program
05:51:15 <yayimheretoo> heck yea!
05:51:19 <yayimheretoo> wait....
05:51:22 <yayimheretoo> fuck
05:51:28 <MarkFan8901> wha
05:51:36 <yayimheretoo> this is related to the whole type = logic thing!
05:51:41 <MarkFan8901> YEA!!!!!!!
05:51:54 <yayimheretoo> because there te type system is the either theorems or axioms I cant remember, and the program is a proof... I think?
05:52:08 <yayimheretoo> so like if the constraint language then also executes the program in being solved...?
05:52:17 <yayimheretoo> idk man im rambling but theres a chance
05:52:25 <MarkFan8901> nono it was that type programming in haskell is a prime example of declarative programming
05:52:38 <MarkFan8901> OH and something about logic solvers
05:52:43 <yayimheretoo> theres BOTH things
05:52:51 <yayimheretoo> lemme find out precisely
05:52:55 <MarkFan8901> yeah cuz logic solvers are also just constraint programming
05:53:00 <MarkFan8901> but like traditional constraint programming
05:53:15 <ais523> <MarkFan8901> secondly, functions which work off a certain property must return the same result for two values which share said property <MarkFan8901> thirdly, functions which dont work off a certain property must have different results for different values ← couldn't you cheat by choosing the property a function works on to be "two values share the property if they return the same result from the function"?
05:53:42 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197163&oldid=197158 * Aadenboy * (+48) /* Lua */ golf in [[Lua]]
05:53:48 <ais523> fwiw I am interested in declarative programming but don't really like how Prolog does it
05:53:49 <yayimheretoo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry–Howard_correspondence this is what I was talking about
05:53:59 <MarkFan8901> ais523: thats under the interpretation that 'property' means semantic property
05:54:01 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197164&oldid=197163 * Aadenboy * (+0) 
05:54:06 <yayimheretoo> ais523: I agree it is somehow a little unsatisfying
05:54:22 <MarkFan8901> which is a really cool one but yea you can poke holes in the rules with it
05:54:28 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: ah
05:54:40 <MarkFan8901> ye that is a cool theorem
05:54:44 <MarkFan8901> correspondence* sry
05:54:49 <ais523> I have considered the concept of a sort of "breadth-first Prolog", especially for Prolog-based golfing languages
05:55:23 <MarkFan8901> OH wait hold on
05:55:27 <ais523> declarative languages that work via backtracking often have the problem that they get stuck in a very slow or possibly even infinite branch of the search tree rather than looking elsewhere which might produce a result quicker
05:55:31 <MarkFan8901> we remember how we fit logic solvers into all of this
05:55:39 <esolangs> [[Fixed Repeating Output]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197165&oldid=197164 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+58) /* Python */ surprised it hasn't been golfed yet
05:55:46 <yayimheretoo> oooo
05:56:02 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: its cuz of the connection that they were considered ai when they were first made
05:56:16 <MarkFan8901> and declarative programming relies on ai to take care of control flow at some fundamental level
05:56:28 <ais523> one redeeming feature of Prolog's evaluation order is that you can do weird control-flow-ish things with it (which are fun in much the same way as esolangs) but I don't think that's a good fit for a serious language
05:56:54 <MarkFan8901> yeah prolog feels like an esolang chris pressey would come up with
05:57:23 <ais523> I don't think you need actual AI to run declarative programs though, worst case a brute-force breadth-first search would work
05:57:51 <MarkFan8901> we mean ai in the sense of extracting human intelligence and automating it
05:58:07 <MarkFan8901> in the purest sense, anything which derives the intent from a set of rules is ai
05:58:15 <MarkFan8901> even a brute force search
05:58:17 <yayimheretoo> also, on the Curry–Howard correspondence's importance here, if you can make finding a constraint language's solution into a simulation of a program, then thats literally using the Curry–Howard correspondence to make a program into a logic system(the set of constraints) and the theorem(finding the solution and proving its correct)
05:58:23 <ais523> this reminds me of a concept that I probably didn't come up with but have thought a lot about: if you are unsure which of two algorithms for computing the same thing is faster, you can just run them in parallel and get a worst-case slowdown of ×2 over the time of the faster algorithm, which is often much better than running one of them because it might be n times slower
05:58:30 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: its still ai even if its not good ai
05:58:50 <ais523> I do consider search algorithms to be a sub-field of Ai
05:59:02 <MarkFan8901> we think search algorithms *are* ai
05:59:07 <yayimheretoo> beam searches seem very AI
05:59:14 <ais523> (I used to work on a NetHack bot which treated the game pretty much as a search problem, so the bot was just a search algorithm)
05:59:17 <MarkFan8901> like we think theres a direct correspondence between efficient searching and ai
05:59:24 <MarkFan8901> like how there is between compression and ai
05:59:33 <esolangs> [[User:Cordership/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197166&oldid=195616 * Cordership * (+4) /* Random Sorting Hat Ceremony in Python */
05:59:41 <ais523> I think there's a direct correspondence between searching *efficiently* and AI
05:59:46 <yayimheretoo> <also, on the Curry–Howard correspondence's importance here, [...]>: what do you think of this markfan8901?
06:00:01 <yayimheretoo> I think I understand the Curry–Howard correspondence correctly btw, but maybe im stupid
06:00:10 <MarkFan8901> wait whats the [...]
06:00:14 <ais523> I don't think "try all the possibilities in sequence until one of them works" is AI unless you do something nontrivial to try to decide on a good sequence, though
06:00:25 <MarkFan8901> we would call that a really dumb ai
06:00:57 <ais523> yesterday I was thinking about American Fuzzy Lop as basically being an agentic random number generator
06:00:59 <MarkFan8901> actually yeah no it might be more practical to just say thats not ai
06:01:06 <MarkFan8901> ais523: hold on we're looking that up
06:01:18 <ais523> it is much faster at finding inputs that reach desired program states than a regular fuzzer is
06:01:33 <ais523> MarkFan8901: it is both a computer program and a type of rabbit, one is named after the other
06:01:38 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: I did it to abbreviate my message is longer upwards in chat
06:01:44 <MarkFan8901> o
06:01:59 <PkmnQ> ais523: i do remember hearing something about an algorithm which is just the running-two-programs-in-parallel thing except running every algorithm in parallel
06:02:18 <MarkFan8901> yea wait ur right
06:02:23 <ais523> PkmnQ: the problem there is what to do if there are infinitely many algorithms
06:02:34 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: referring to yayimheretoo
06:03:05 <MarkFan8901> we were also thinking merely the process of working through the language could also somehow be translated into its own program
06:03:24 <yayimheretoo> I think both work
06:03:26 <MarkFan8901> PkmnQ: thats called global search
06:03:28 <ais523> it *is* possible to run all programs in a given language in parallel (looking for one that, e.g., halts with a particular value), even if there are infinitely many, but it's very slow due to the way in which you have to interleave them
06:03:40 <yayimheretoo> also that means Bitch, Ienai!... is aa type system????
06:03:45 <yayimheretoo> I think-
06:03:56 <MarkFan8901> goddamn it its all types
06:04:03 <MarkFan8901> everyone go home
06:04:05 <MarkFan8901> esolanging is solved
06:04:09 <MarkFan8901> its just type programming
06:04:17 <yayimheretoo> lmao
06:04:23 <yayimheretoo> nono its just types is everything
06:04:23 <ais523> in particular the runtime of any given program gets multiplied by a constant (depending on where it is in the sequence of programs) and squared (you can avoid the squaring of the runtime but then you need to exponentiate the constant)
06:04:26 <yayimheretoo> lol
06:04:39 <PkmnQ> found it, "levin's universal search" is what i was thinking of
06:04:48 <ais523> so it's not very good if trying to find an optimal-time algorithm
06:04:56 <PkmnQ> ais523: yeah, that's what i recall hearing about it
06:05:14 <ais523> (that said, the exponentiate-the-constant version does give you an optimal algorithm up to constant factors, just the factors are too large to be practical)
06:05:39 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197167&oldid=197149 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-169) 
06:06:00 <yayimheretoo> I think I fixed everything you said MarkFan8901
06:06:08 <MarkFan8901> reading
06:06:15 <yayimheretoo> holy shit I didn't know \@ did that!
06:06:27 <yayimheretoo> or just @ was using \ to escape
06:06:58 <MarkFan8901> oh would it be ok if the snippets of syntax weren't in code blocks
06:07:05 <MarkFan8901> thats also a little clunky in our opinion
06:07:28 <int-e> ais523: There's that really inefficient SAT solver construction that interleaves simulations of all turing machines on its input, collects the outputs as they halt and checks them against the input, which runs in polynomial time iff NP = P.
06:07:44 <yayimheretoo> if you find another clean way too make it distinct whats Meta-Notation VS UnMeta-Notation
06:08:22 <MarkFan8901> what are the examples of non meta notation in the page
06:08:24 <ais523> <de67> im confused on whats going on, there are multiple ongoing conversations in one channel ← you get used to it, typically what happens is you learn by participating in multiple conversations at the same time in *different* channels, then eventually you can do it in the same channel too
06:08:42 <ais523> there have been cases where I and someone else have had two different conversations with each other simultaneously in the same channel
06:08:55 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: M, l, N, v
06:09:08 <int-e> ais523: which I assume is ancient (relative to the history of computer science), but I don't know how old it really is.
06:09:14 <yayimheretoo> they are properties, and entities
06:09:46 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197168&oldid=197167 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+45) /* Rules */
06:09:51 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: those seem small enough to be understandable as parts of the language without being marked as meta syntax
06:10:21 <ais523> int-e: hmm, this isn't just P vs. NP but x vs. Nx for all x, right?
06:10:27 <ais523> err, all computable x
06:10:42 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: also, on another note, I dont think code blocks are very clunky? they are very widely used on this wiki
06:10:57 <MarkFan8901> true, but we think here specifically they are
06:10:57 <ais523> actually no, x has to be a computational class that's simulatable on Turing machines with only constant-time slowdown
06:11:00 <MarkFan8901> or maybe thats just our dark mode
06:11:14 <ais523> * constant-factor slowdown
06:11:17 <yayimheretoo> I wouldn't know about dark mode lmao
06:11:19 <int-e> ais523: hmm I think you need x >= P because of simulation overheads
06:11:21 <int-e> but yes
06:11:24 <ais523> which P is, but specific polynomials aren't
06:11:27 <MarkFan8901> oya did you see that we made a dark mode for the vector 2010 theme
06:11:38 <int-e> oh I guess you also need complete problems for x
06:11:44 <yayimheretoo> yes I did but I dont use it lol
06:11:51 <MarkFan8901> fair
06:12:21 <MarkFan8901> we also think its cuz of how frequently its used
06:12:32 <int-e> for Nx, rather
06:12:42 <MarkFan8901> typically we only see like two or three inline code snippets used in a paragraph
06:13:00 <MarkFan8901> plus theyre normally longer we think
06:13:05 <yayimheretoo> notation exists to be used!
06:13:12 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere2(school)/common.css]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197169&oldid=167047 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4142) 
06:13:16 <MarkFan8901> true...
06:13:31 <MarkFan8901> hehe
06:13:33 <MarkFan8901> our power spreads
06:13:36 <yayimheretoo> quite like this actually
06:13:43 <MarkFan8901> thank u
06:13:43 <yayimheretoo> but like I dont see whats wrong with cde
06:13:51 <MarkFan8901> it might just be a personal thing
06:14:09 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197170&oldid=197168 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-4) /* Rules */
06:14:22 <MarkFan8901> mm
06:14:42 <MarkFan8901> perhaps we can reword how the system is described
06:14:55 <MarkFan8901> rn it has quite a bit of redundancy
06:15:14 <yayimheretoo> like?
06:15:28 <yayimheretoo> I guess PT is never used as notation
06:15:43 <MarkFan8901> "and notation that isn't are actual entities" + "These aren't notation as the others, thats their actual names as if they were manually defined"
06:15:52 <MarkFan8901> you basically say the same thing twice
06:16:00 <MarkFan8901> like youre desperate to get it across to the reader
06:16:09 <yayimheretoo> oh I didn't se that was still there
06:16:15 <MarkFan8901> ye
06:16:25 <MarkFan8901> also we're fine with PT
06:16:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197171&oldid=197170 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-176) /* Rules */
06:16:39 <yayimheretoo> fjixed
06:17:18 <ais523> re: featured languages, one problem is that in addition to the language being worth featuring, the article about it has to be good enough to be worth featuring too
06:17:21 <MarkFan8901> oh yea the fact that ME transforms are ET is redundant by their definition
06:17:24 <MarkFan8901> cuz they take in entities
06:17:48 <MarkFan8901> ais523: another good reason for befunge to be a featured lang
06:18:21 <ais523> <MarkFan8901> yea ais consistently makes high quality langs ← this is actually not true but most of the low quality ones either don't get posted, or (if I post them) don't get linked from my userpage
06:18:31 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: that would be untrue, PT also take in entities, just abstract them *after*
06:18:46 <MarkFan8901> ahh
06:18:58 <MarkFan8901> ais523: true
06:19:05 <ais523> recently I was thinking about BF derivatives and came up with the name "kcufniarb" but now I am trying to find a good set of semantics that fits the name
06:19:12 <MarkFan8901> you have very good quality control
06:19:24 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197172&oldid=197171 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+13) /* Rules */
06:19:40 <yayimheretoo> ais523: lmao
06:19:55 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/Blog draft]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197173&oldid=197160 * Aadenboy * (+24) this should be its own section
06:20:17 <ais523> I was thinking about a nondeterministic sort of language which exploits the fact that when exiting a BF loop, the value in the cell is always 0 but there are two places that control flow could have come from (likewise at the start of a BF loop body, the value in the cell is always non-0 but there are two places that control flow could have come from)
06:20:25 <ais523> and somehow time-reversing this to do a deterministic choice
06:20:34 <MarkFan8901> oh `or abstracts it into Pf(X) through a "layer of abstraction".` should probably just be shortened to `or abstracts it into Pf(X).`
06:20:38 <MarkFan8901> ais523: thats a cool idea
06:20:44 <ais523> …but that's as far as I've got, I'm not sure which specific set of details (if any) would make this interesting
06:21:00 <yayimheretoo> mark8901: oops forgot to delete that!
06:21:08 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197174&oldid=197172 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-33) /* Rules */
06:21:37 <ais523> I guess the difference between me and most of the wiki is that I don't just pick an arbitrary choice and post it, and only later find out whether the choice was good or not
06:21:50 <yayimheretoo> ais523: that sounds cool
06:21:51 <ais523> err, that sentence is hard to parse, I'll add parentheses
06:21:55 <ais523> I guess the difference between me and most of the wiki is that I don't just (pick an arbitrary choice and post it, and only later find out whether the choice was good or not)
06:22:06 <MarkFan8901> ais523: yea more people should be doing that
06:22:26 <MarkFan8901> we think we do that naturally just cuz its already so hard for us to wanna work on an esolang
06:22:31 <MarkFan8901> and not just come up with ideas
06:22:44 <MarkFan8901> so it takes an exceptional idea to get us working
06:22:55 <MarkFan8901> which is what ralsei and that language for the platformer bots are
06:23:15 <yayimheretoo> i do that before making the language, I always try to make sure the idea is good and at then make sure the language follows the idea correctly
06:23:16 <ais523> <ais523> and somehow time-reversing this to do a deterministic choice ← s/deterministic/non-deterministic/
06:23:36 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: thats kinda impossible
06:24:04 <MarkFan8901> you dont know how good an idea is unless you explore it and take it seriously
06:24:09 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: how? like if its a bad idea, or I think its a bad idea I just wont... make something with that idea
06:24:24 <ais523> <MarkFan8901> we actually saw his name in a video about smb3 arbitrary code execution ← that's actually the second time where I've deduced the likely existence of a video game bug purely by reading documentation, and concluding "this is very hard to program correctly so maybe it got programmed incorrectly"
06:24:28 <yayimheretoo> and if I explore it and don't find a language which does smth cool *with* the idea at every attempt I just dont
06:24:38 <MarkFan8901> we mean its impossible to say that an idea is Bad before going through with it
06:24:44 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: ah
06:24:58 <yayimheretoo> i have many half finished language docs in my notes app
06:25:08 <MarkFan8901> ye ok we thought you were like, trying to figure out if ideas are bad before making anything about them
06:25:24 <yayimheretoo> nah nahh
06:25:24 <MarkFan8901>  ais523: thats really really funny
06:25:29 <yayimheretoo> i have so much time
06:25:40 <yayimheretoo> so i do always explore atleast a bbit
06:25:49 <MarkFan8901> ye thats good
06:25:50 <ais523> (although correctly reading a NES controller isn't so hard in the abstract, doing it correctly would be more code to handle a case that isn't realistically going to happen, so who'd bother writing it? especially as most/(all?) NES games were handwritten in 6502 asm)
06:26:07 <MarkFan8901> yea
06:26:21 <MarkFan8901> oh whats the first time you did that btw
06:27:03 <ais523> it was in Neverwinter Nights, it has a place in which you can recover lost plot items
06:27:32 <ais523> it was intended for situations where in multiplayer, someone disconnected while holding a critical item, to prevent the game becoming unwinnable for everyone else
06:28:12 <ais523> but the manual also mentioned that a) it also worked on accidentally dropped items and b) it was added last minute (it was in a separate section of the manual for documenting last-minute changes as they were made after most of the manual had already been printed)
06:28:47 <ais523> and I was thinking, if there's a way to get hold of a copy of a plot item that got dropped, what happens to the original? in that game you can pick up items again after dropping them, even much later
06:28:53 <MarkFan8901> sounds like prime time for item dupe
06:28:56 <ais523> exactly
06:29:24 <MarkFan8901> if only we had minds like this in the roblox community
06:29:28 <MarkFan8901> actually we kinda do
06:29:35 <yayimheretoo> also MarkFan8901 anymore flaws in the Bitch, Ienai! article
06:29:39 <yayimheretoo> ?
06:29:47 <MarkFan8901> give us a sec
06:29:58 <yayimheretoo> cool
06:30:12 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: theres this guy who rebuilt like 3 different versions of roblox physics from stratch *in* roblox
06:30:23 <yayimheretoo> holy hell
06:30:25 <MarkFan8901> specifically 2016, 2021, and (mid) 2026 physics
06:30:28 <ais523> the fun thing is that some chapters are coded as requiring you to complete (or partially complete) a set of plot items in order to be able to continue, but they just count the number of the relevant type of plot items you collected, so if you duplciate plot items you can just get one of them and duplicate enough of them to complete the chapter
06:30:45 <MarkFan8901> funy
06:31:08 <ais523> but the amazing thing is, I subsequently discovered that there's code trying to prevent you using duplicates of a given plot item for the chapter completion check, it's just broken (being tied to some parts of a dialog tree but not to other parts that are supposed to be equivalent)
06:31:24 <MarkFan8901> huh
06:32:12 <yayimheretoo> that is literally amazing
06:32:17 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: the fact it was reimplemented from the ground up lets you do stuff like a real tas system (something we've been heavily missing for years) and bringing back old glitches from the grave
06:32:46 <MarkFan8901> its called eternal obbying btw you can like. play this right now
06:32:49 <MarkFan8901> its actually crazy
06:33:05 <MarkFan8901> okay anyways
06:33:19 <ais523> <PkmnQ> yeah the pattern-based thing is pretty novel on its own, but even beyond that it's interesting to me even only considering the semantics without the syntax ← the syntax came first, and strongly suggested the semantics as there's only so much you can do when the language has only three commands (first incidence, second incidence, third incidence) and they're all connected to each other as a set
06:33:21 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: only other flaws are just wording stuff in our opinion
06:33:38 <MarkFan8901> actually hold on lets be more specific
06:33:42 <ais523> it's one of those languages where I remember where I was when I came up with it
06:33:52 <MarkFan8901> its a little too wordy right now in our opinion
06:34:05 <MarkFan8901> that was another thing we tried fixing up in our sandbox version
06:34:55 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197175&oldid=197174 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* Rules */
06:35:10 <ais523> that said, the most confusing such memory to me is The Program Is Mostly Ignored because I remember it as having been come up with while waiting on a platform of a train station, which is reasonable enough except that the platform in question is one that I would only normally use after my train had already arrived at its destination, so why would I be waiting at it?
06:35:34 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197176&oldid=197175 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-35) /* Rules */
06:35:39 <ais523> I am guessing that I just misremembered the specific platform, but am not sure, maybe I was doing something weird that day
06:35:59 <MarkFan8901> enjoying the scenery
06:36:14 <yayimheretoo> mmmaybe you were waiting bcuz you were thinking
06:36:15 <yayimheretoo> lol
06:38:18 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197177&oldid=197176 * MarkFan8901 * (-31) 
06:38:51 <ais523> yayimheretoo: I've been wondering about that
06:39:07 <yayimheretoo> ais523: about what? the waiting?
06:39:10 <ais523> yes
06:39:15 <yayimheretoo> ahok
06:39:21 <MarkFan8901> ais523: that just confirms it /tease
06:40:55 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197178&oldid=197177 * MarkFan8901 * (-134) 
06:41:17 <ais523> actually no, that wasn't TPIMI, that was Echo Tag
06:41:20 <yayimheretoo> hey markfan8901  its edit conflicting right now? theres some stuff that was kinda redefined, is it fine if I push through with my edit?
06:41:34 <MarkFan8901> ye thats oki
06:41:36 <ais523> I was probably thinking about trying to prove Echo Tag TC, and the TCness proof became TPIMI
06:41:40 <MarkFan8901> our edit was pretty basic
06:41:49 <ais523> but TPIMI, I created in the middle of the night while my computer was broken
06:41:54 <yayimheretoo> cool. feel free to copy your edit to adjust after I push
06:42:02 <ais523> so I actually wrote it down on paper so that I wouldn't forget it
06:42:05 <MarkFan8901> we have it copied
06:42:08 <yayimheretoo> nice
06:43:55 <ais523> it's been a while since I created a program somewhere interesting, the most recent was Genera Tag
06:44:12 <ais523> (it was created close to a beach, I was walking towards the beach at the time and hadn't quite reached it)
06:44:19 <yayimheretoo> go to a river and let it inspire you /j
06:44:33 <MarkFan8901> the waterfall model:
06:44:39 <yayimheretoo> that seems like the perfect activity for MY brain
06:45:00 <ais523> for TWM I think I was just in bed at home, not as interesting
06:45:24 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: waterfall = river
06:45:24 <MarkFan8901> when ur at the river u'll think of an esolang inspired by being in bed
06:45:35 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: yea a waterfall is just a vertical river
06:45:43 <yayimheretoo> true
06:45:52 <b_jonas> ais523: login to IRC via SASL isn't hard. in theory SASL supports multiple authentication methods, but the one you will probably use just transmits your account name and password encoded with something like base64. the main difference from nickserv is that you can do it before you get a usable IRC client connection. 
06:46:08 <ais523> I don't have the base64 of my password memorized
06:46:20 <MarkFan8901> get to work then dummy
06:46:26 <yayimheretoo> skill issue
06:46:26 <ais523> …I guess I could just change my password to something with a memorable base64?
06:46:29 <yayimheretoo> as the young say
06:46:33 <yayimheretoo> ais523: sure
06:46:41 <MarkFan8901> 'the young' is crazy
06:46:57 <yayimheretoo> im allowed to say that I am one! lol
06:47:01 <MarkFan8901> oya yayimheretoo did you get that edit through yet
06:47:06 <yayimheretoo> yes!!
06:47:13 <MarkFan8901> o we didnt notice
06:47:18 <ais523> a while ago I was working on a language which used inverse-base64 as its syntax (the interpreter would base64 *encode* the input and then treat the resulting characters as commands), in order to be able to fit four commands into every three bytes of program
06:47:42 <yayimheretoo> that feels cursed
06:47:53 <b_jonas> ais523: it's basically just "AUTHENTICATE PLAIN\nAUTHENTICATE :" . encode_base64("$account\x00$account\x00$password") . "\n"
06:47:55 <MarkFan8901> hold on this is related to something we were talking about with compression and whatnot
06:48:13 <MarkFan8901> having more than 1 command per character
06:48:37 <yayimheretoo> I wonder how compression connects to constraint languages /j
06:48:44 <MarkFan8901> ai
06:48:59 <yayimheretoo> dammit
06:49:02 <yayimheretoo> lol
06:49:14 <MarkFan8901> cuz declarative programming to an extent relies on quantifying human intelligence
06:49:18 <MarkFan8901> and compression is intelligence
06:49:19 <b_jonas> it wouldn't even really be better over NickServ if it weren't for that libera servers half-ban certain IP address ranges such that they only accept connections if they authenticate via SASL. (also NickServ has confusingly different syntax between IRC networks where where the IDENTIFY command takes the account and password parameters in different order.)
06:49:20 <ais523> yayimheretoo: recently I was thinking about converting a diff-compression algorithm into a regular compression algorithm by taking the least fixed point of the encoded diff
06:49:33 <ais523> that might be seen as a constraint-compression connection
06:49:40 <yayimheretoo> hmmmmm
06:49:47 <yayimheretoo> dammit
06:49:53 <yayimheretoo> wtf
06:49:54 <MarkFan8901> everyone go home
06:49:57 <MarkFan8901> its all just declarative programming
06:49:59 <yayimheretoo> interesting
06:50:04 <yayimheretoo> the hell
06:50:08 <yayimheretoo> ¨
06:50:14 <MarkFan8901> wha
06:50:14 <yayimheretoo> ok...
06:50:18 <yayimheretoo> weird , anyways
06:50:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, deflate already has a least fixed point thing because it can copy a long string where the source partly overlaps the destination in order to repeat a string many times
06:50:49 <b_jonas> well, it's more like the only fixed point, but still
06:51:16 <ais523> only is still least
06:51:24 <MarkFan8901> oya yayimheretoo can we shorten `Every property can also act as/has a corresponding entity` to `Every property can be used as an entity`
06:51:42 <MarkFan8901> we're nervous about just turning your page into our page
06:51:52 <yayimheretoo> oh yes great, but remember to include the fact its reversible
06:51:57 <MarkFan8901> ye
06:52:48 <b_jonas> "October is not a traditional month for pancakes" => I think this might be a difference between Europe vs America. 
06:53:09 <MarkFan8901> damn........
06:53:28 <ais523> b_jonas: in which direction?
06:53:50 <MarkFan8901> oya implicit in the second rule is that the transformations youre talking about are ones which work on entities
06:54:17 <yayimheretoo> wut?
06:54:21 <yayimheretoo> could you say that again
06:55:16 <MarkFan8901> `Every transformation applies either to the actual entity given X, or abstracts it into Pf(X) first.` seems to only apply for transformations which work on entities
06:55:18 <HackEso> Every? No such file or directory
06:55:35 <yayimheretoo> ok hackeso
06:55:45 <MarkFan8901> which leaves transformations which work on values in the dust
06:55:58 <yayimheretoo> ??? entities have both values and transforms
06:56:15 <MarkFan8901> right, but the definition of transforms also lets them work on values directly
06:56:22 <MarkFan8901> instead of entities
06:57:16 <yayimheretoo> yes...? when you're working with an entity you could choose to work on the transform or the value. the reason its worded that way is because transforms apply to entities but to describe entities you already need transforms
06:58:13 <MarkFan8901> wait okay so
06:58:28 <MarkFan8901> transforms either work on the values or the properties of the entity they take in
06:58:44 <yayimheretoo> yes
06:58:47 <ais523> hmm, I logread up to me joining and talking about 0-bit integers, and now I'm wondering what "0's complement" would mean
06:58:51 <MarkFan8901> thats a very elegant way to put it
06:59:17 <yayimheretoo> elegant way to put what? whats being put? which message is in this reference to?
06:59:18 <yayimheretoo> llol
06:59:19 <ais523> I guess the logical expansion of that would be to use 0 and -1 as bit values rather than 0 and 1, which I guess just means all the numbers are negative (like sign-magnitude but without the sign)
06:59:40 <ais523> or maybe it's balanced ternary
06:59:49 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: the second rule
07:00:32 <MarkFan8901> hold on we'll make an edit but we're not sure if its accurate
07:00:33 <MarkFan8901> tell us if its not
07:00:49 <yayimheretoo> ok will tell
07:01:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197179&oldid=197178 * MarkFan8901 * (-242) 
07:01:46 <yayimheretoo> thats actually very elegant yea. you could even implement the vase where an entity is used as a transform
07:02:05 <MarkFan8901> yee
07:02:11 <b_jonas> ais523: Neverwinter Nights recover item by abusing behavior for when someone disconnected while holding a critical item => that sounds like the item duplication bugs that older versions of Minecraft had, which came from that the game saves your inventory more frequently than it saves most of the rest of the world, so if you crash the game shortly after you pick up an item then you can have it in your 
07:02:17 <b_jonas> inventory while the game forgot that it's no longer elsewhere
07:02:28 <ais523> that works in some versions of Pokémon too
07:02:47 <ais523> (cutting the power at the right time relative to a save)
07:03:16 <ais523> I think in Emerald, if you trigger the save in the right way, you don't even need to do it midsave, just turn off the power after saving
07:03:31 <yayimheretoo> this implies entities are 3-tuples: (λ,X,{P1,P2,P3,...})
07:04:24 <yayimheretoo> which is always nice
07:06:00 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197180&oldid=197179 * MarkFan8901 * (+39) 
07:06:24 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: i dicovered the above, should that be on the page?
07:06:55 <b_jonas> ais523: there is some sweet food like pancakes or waffles that Americans think is valid breakfast food but (continental) Europeans think is inappropriate for breakfast. but this isn't *all* sweet food, Europeans can still eat bread with jam and/or honey for breakfast, and drink sweetened tea or cocoa, so it's possible that it's the Europeans who have weird customs for this.
07:06:57 <MarkFan8901> wait wha
07:06:59 <MarkFan8901> hm
07:07:21 <MarkFan8901> wait hold on entities can also work as transformations?
07:07:28 <ais523> "waffle" at least has very different meanings between British and American english
07:08:01 <yayimheretoo> `(λ,X,{P1,P2,P3,...})`: `λ` is the transform, `X` is the value, and `{P1,P2,P3,...}` is the property set.
07:08:05 <HackEso> ​(λ,X,{P1,P2,P3,...})`:? No such file or directory
07:08:06 <b_jonas> yeah, a lot of food names are confusing, no surprise since you can rarely ship most food across the ocean
07:08:45 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: sry for being dumb but how do entities also have transforms
07:08:55 <MarkFan8901> oh also should we replace the word 'transformation' with just 'transform' on the page
07:08:59 <MarkFan8901> cuz its more natural
07:09:05 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: yes. the only things which you can actually access is the entity, its jsut that entities represent multiple things. this is mentioned in: "Entities must be defined with either a value or a transformation. The other side must be derived from what was given."
07:09:23 <MarkFan8901> oh we're like actually dumb
07:09:25 <MarkFan8901> okay we get it
07:09:39 <yayimheretoo> its like lambda calculus, in principle. Entities are just ALWAYS defined by the function route
07:09:45 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: lmao its fine
07:10:01 <MarkFan8901> maybe defining it as a 3-tuple would be a bit restrictive
07:10:06 <b_jonas> also network multiplayer on a network that can have delays for a real-time game is hard to implement, and the weird bugs that Spelunky 2 network multiplayer has illustrates these. there's a way to duplicate back items, and some occasional complete desyncs.
07:10:22 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: yea. idk thats up to you
07:10:26 <yayimheretoo> but its a fun discovery
07:10:27 <MarkFan8901> since you could theoretically make a solution where those are all taken care of in a single data field
07:10:29 <MarkFan8901> ye
07:10:42 <b_jonas> players sometimes deliberately use the back item dupe to gain advantage
07:10:47 <MarkFan8901> what do you think of our transformations -> transforms idea
07:11:09 <b_jonas> but multiplayer is almost never played in a competitive way so this doesn't matter much
07:11:22 <MarkFan8901> competitive spelunky sounds really funny
07:11:30 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: sure!!
07:11:33 <MarkFan8901> oki oki
07:11:45 <ais523> b_jonas: isn't the standard solution to that "rollback networking", in which there's one authoratitive game state stored on the server, clients send their commands to it and get back updates about the game state, but show to the player what they predict the current gamestate is most likely to be even though they're not aware of recent commands by other players?
07:12:42 <ais523> this sometimes means that you get sudden unexpected changes to what's onscreen if another player does something unpredictable and there's a lot of lag, but that sort of thing is rare in practice
07:12:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the game does something like that, at least there's certainly a difference between players and the back item dupe depends on which player has the earlier slot, but apparently there are or were some unsound optimizations
07:13:49 <ais523> (and some realtime games design the rules of the game in such a way that any command must be given some length of time before it has any visible effects for anyone else, allowing the fact the that the command has been sent to network-propagate, although that would make it possible to cheat by sniffing the network to discover actions by other players slightly before you were supposed to be aware of them)
07:14:09 <ais523> s/authoratitive/authoritative/
07:14:24 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: seems like the page is pretty much fine by now
07:14:34 <yayimheretoo> I don't think we need to modify anything
07:15:52 <MarkFan8901> oh maybe N can be defined with l
07:16:01 <MarkFan8901> since they just do the same thing but N applies l to the result again
07:16:11 <MarkFan8901> N(x) -> l(l(x))
07:16:21 <b_jonas> a minimum delay could make sense for something like a real-time strategy, or even a first-person shooter, but I think it would be harder to make it work for something like Spelunky 2
07:16:40 <yayimheretoo> I mean, N is already defined in terms of l:
07:16:41 <yayimheretoo> N(x) = M -> l(x)
07:16:56 <MarkFan8901> ye
07:17:10 <yayimheretoo> its explicitly stated
07:17:12 <MarkFan8901> but the descriptions for N and l are the exact same up until the last part
07:17:30 <MarkFan8901> they both have `a {{cd|ME}} transform which takes an entity {{cd|X}} and makes a transform which takes in an entity of {{cd|P<sub>c</sub>(X)}} and produces {{cd|X}}` in common
07:17:51 <yayimheretoo> no? its an entity oc Pc(M)
07:18:02 <MarkFan8901> wait
07:18:14 <MarkFan8901> ohhhh okay
07:18:15 <yayimheretoo> "N, a ME transform which takes an entity X and makes a transform which takes in an entity in Pc(M) and produces X transformed by l."
07:18:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197181&oldid=197180 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Rules */
07:18:36 <MarkFan8901> ok straight up we thought the fact that one said of and the other said in was a typo
07:19:00 <yayimheretoo> it was! its just different properties
07:19:04 <yayimheretoo> and different results
07:19:12 <PkmnQ> I keep forgetting that's a lowercase l and I keep reading it as a capital I instead
07:19:21 <MarkFan8901> yea its weird
07:19:54 <MarkFan8901> also yayimheretoo we unrealized why N cant just be defined as l(l(x))
07:19:59 <yayimheretoo> idk why thats the symbol I chose to use but it remains true to the original Type
07:20:07 <MarkFan8901> ye
07:20:12 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: wtf does that mean lol
07:20:47 <MarkFan8901> cuz now they both do the same thing except N applies l again
07:21:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197182&oldid=197162 * None1 * (+402) /* BF Joust strategies */
07:21:11 <yayimheretoo> they dont do the same thing cuz the INPUT property is different
07:21:20 <yayimheretoo> like N(x)(M) = l(x)
07:21:53 <MarkFan8901> and l(x)(M) = x, right
07:21:58 <MarkFan8901> or are we missing something
07:22:08 <yayimheretoo> no its equal to l(x)
07:22:20 <yayimheretoo> l(x)(y) = x if y is in Pc(x)
07:22:34 <MarkFan8901> ohhhh okay
07:22:56 <yayimheretoo> so its N(x)(y)(z)
07:22:56 <MarkFan8901> Wait okay we just realized it
07:23:19 <MarkFan8901> okay phew
07:23:32 <yayimheretoo> this is one hell of a project to work on lol
07:23:40 <MarkFan8901> yea
07:23:56 <MarkFan8901> this is like the second time in a row similar wording caught us in a misunderstanding
07:24:08 <yayimheretoo> yea
07:24:11 <MarkFan8901> our brain kind of just glossed over the different input
07:24:19 <yayimheretoo> yea its annoying when that happens
07:24:23 <MarkFan8901> maybe we should work on making it a little more terse
07:24:26 <MarkFan8901> so its easier to see the difference
07:24:40 <yayimheretoo> ive done that quite a few time with ais languages where im like "thats the same!"... "no!"
07:24:43 <yayimheretoo> loll
07:24:49 <MarkFan8901> yea:sob:
07:25:03 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: idk how that would be done:sob: but if you have a way go ahead!
07:25:30 <MarkFan8901> OH wait hold on
07:25:32 <MarkFan8901> not related to that but
07:25:47 <MarkFan8901> since the Pf(X) isnt there anymore that means Pc(X) doesnt need the subscript
07:25:48 <MarkFan8901> to distinguish it
07:25:52 <MarkFan8901> it could just be P(X)
07:25:58 <yayimheretoo> true!!
07:26:00 <yayimheretoo> yay!
07:26:56 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197183&oldid=197181 * MarkFan8901 * (-98) 
07:27:07 <MarkFan8901> page golfing
07:27:12 <MarkFan8901> wait hold on this is compression
07:27:16 <yayimheretoo> nice
07:27:18 <yayimheretoo> yes...
07:27:18 <MarkFan8901> and compression is intelligence...
07:27:22 <yayimheretoo> GOD FUCKING DAMMIT
07:27:22 <MarkFan8901> which is .......
07:27:31 <yayimheretoo> SO THE PAGE IS A CONSTRAINT LANGUAGE NOW?
07:27:38 <MarkFan8901> and a set generator
07:27:41 <MarkFan8901> and declarative programming
07:27:49 <yayimheretoo> so code golfing is a constraint language and set generation AND SYNTAX
07:27:57 <yayimheretoo> GOLF IS SYNTAX?
07:27:58 <yayimheretoo> GOD NO!
07:28:20 <MarkFan8901> this is the shit lovecraft was talking about when he said science would lead us to knowledge the human mind couldnt comprehend
07:28:33 <yayimheretoo> truly
07:28:46 <yayimheretoo> ok I cant wait to find out how you translate between all these thats rlly interesting
07:28:54 <yayimheretoo> IMAGINE THE GOLFING LANGUAGES THHAT CAN BE MADE!
07:28:58 <yayimheretoo> witn this new understanding
07:29:21 <MarkFan8901> yeah golfing with the compression = intelligence in mind actually seems really helpful
07:29:37 <MarkFan8901> not just cuz its related to ais' quip about a language which fits 4 commands in 3 characters
07:29:58 <yayimheretoo> but like imagine how weirdly abstract you can get if you take like... linear logic, and use that to golf, for example...???
07:30:30 <MarkFan8901> we're still thinking about taking just a line of thought and turning it into the execution of a program in a declarative paradigm
07:30:45 <MarkFan8901> literally extracting human intelligence and automating it
07:30:49 <yayimheretoo> that *is* very cool
07:31:03 <yayimheretoo> but I rlly just like in general how many different connections this makes
07:31:07 <MarkFan8901> yee same
07:31:16 <yayimheretoo> ok but wait
07:31:23 <MarkFan8901> imagine making a symbolic regression ai where the symbols in question are the symbols in that language
07:31:51 <yayimheretoo> imagine a machine which compresses some arbitrary compressor, applied to itself, applies to itself, applied to itself, forever
07:31:58 <yayimheretoo> ... idk what that does but sounds cool
07:32:01 <PkmnQ> yayimheretoo: wait a minute, M is defined as being PT, but it returns a transform (namely M itself), so shouldn't it be ME and thus VT
07:32:27 <MarkFan8901> oh is that cuz of the typo
07:32:30 <MarkFan8901> ""it takes makes"
07:32:30 <yayimheretoo> PkmnQ: so heres the *thing*
07:32:53 <yayimheretoo> wait
07:32:55 <yayimheretoo> wait wtf
07:32:55 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: we actually openly thought of that idea for an ai in this channel
07:32:58 <yayimheretoo> hmm lemme think
07:33:26 <MarkFan8901> where the ai works by taking functions and optimizing them for their goal
07:33:37 <MarkFan8901> where 'optimizing' is either compressing or making more correct
07:33:52 <yayimheretoo> ok but then this AI applies to itself.
07:33:55 <MarkFan8901> yes
07:33:57 <MarkFan8901> thats the point
07:34:03 <MarkFan8901> free rsi (real) (not clickbait)
07:34:05 <yayimheretoo> nice
07:34:33 <MarkFan8901> more specifically, it does this by the fact that its written in the same language its working wit
07:34:34 <MarkFan8901> with*
07:34:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197184&oldid=197183 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Rules */
07:34:52 <yayimheretoo> ok the thing with ME is it was originally defined more complex
07:36:09 <yayimheretoo> sppecificelly ME takes in a value, and places it inside a "template" program. M isn't doing that it's just taking some general property and making everything of that property into M. M is PT, so it cant be ME
07:36:56 <yayimheretoo> pkmnq ^
07:37:19 <MarkFan8901> M takes an entity and works with one of its values, which makes it PT
07:37:54 <yayimheretoo> no, M is based off of if its in the v property it becomes M
07:38:27 <MarkFan8901> wait shit we meant "works with one of its properties"
07:38:38 <yayimheretoo> ah ok
07:38:39 <MarkFan8901> that property just so happening to be v
07:38:43 <yayimheretoo> yes
07:39:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197185&oldid=197182 * Ais523 * (+1926) /* BF Joust strategies */ thoughts
07:39:49 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197186&oldid=197184 * MarkFan8901 * (+18) 
07:40:35 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197187&oldid=197186 * MarkFan8901 * (-26) 
07:40:41 <yayimheretoo> like the thing is it gets put INSIDE of a transform instead of being modified itself
07:41:03 <yayimheretoo> thats a weird thing, MT is fully injective
07:41:31 <MarkFan8901> hm we're starting to think
07:41:40 <MarkFan8901> could you make a constraint language based around actually have a correct answer?
07:41:45 <MarkFan8901> or some correct central concept
07:41:54 <MarkFan8901> that could tie all the constraints together in one fell swoop
07:41:58 <yayimheretoo> idk doesn't seem interesting then
07:42:07 <MarkFan8901> it could be if you designed around it
07:42:22 <yayimheretoo> but then other solutions dont exist!
07:42:34 <MarkFan8901> ok we dont mean like
07:42:36 <MarkFan8901> a strict answer
07:43:14 <MarkFan8901> we mean like some idea which can solve all of the constraints at the same time
07:43:36 <MarkFan8901> with the language being designed around puzzling for what that idea is
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07:43:57 <MarkFan8901> it would probably take stricture rules but we could imagine how itd be fun
07:44:14 <MarkFan8901> oh another idea we had is describing some other popular language but then adding one rule which fucks literally everything up
07:44:30 <yayimheretoo> yeeee
07:44:31 <MarkFan8901> like brainfuck but theres a rule that somehow supersedes the idea of a tape and numbers
07:44:36 <yayimheretoo> i wanna do that with LC
07:45:18 <MarkFan8901> oya wait hold on
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07:45:42 <MarkFan8901> by `makes a transform which takes in {{cd|P(X)}} and produces {{cd|X}}` do you mean `makes a transform which produces {{cd|X}} when given {{cd|P(X)}}`
07:45:49 <yayimheretoo> man MT bothers me so much. I dont know what but smth makes it different
07:46:00 <MarkFan8901> apologies
07:46:05 <yayimheretoo> and yes markfan8901
07:46:14 <yayimheretoo> apologies?
07:46:19 <yayimheretoo> MT as in the actual category
07:46:25 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197188&oldid=197187 * MarkFan8901 * (+0) 
07:47:03 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197189&oldid=197188 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Rules */
07:47:22 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197190&oldid=197189 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) /* Rules */
07:48:12 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197191&oldid=197190 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+67) 
07:48:46 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197192&oldid=197185 * None1 * (+467) /* BF Joust strategies */  Fixed inconsistency
07:49:05 <MarkFan8901> 'synthetic template' is a very left field thing to put in the explanation
07:49:08 <MarkFan8901> we're not quite sure what it means
07:49:08 <yayimheretoo> ok PkmnQ I think MT is now properly describe
07:49:16 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: typo
07:49:29 <MarkFan8901> oh Syntactical template
07:49:34 <yayimheretoo> yes!
07:49:47 <PkmnQ> yayimheretoo: yeah I think I get it now
07:49:52 <yayimheretoo> great!!!
07:49:59 <yayimheretoo> HOLY HELL! IS IT DONE?
07:50:03 <yayimheretoo> I think so!!!
07:50:09 <MarkFan8901> nono hold on
07:50:10 <MarkFan8901> theres one more edit
07:50:15 <yayimheretoo> finally!
07:51:49 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197193&oldid=197191 * MarkFan8901 * (-65) 
07:52:18 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197194&oldid=197193 * MarkFan8901 * (+2) 
07:52:40 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197195&oldid=197194 * MarkFan8901 * (-2) 
07:52:57 <MarkFan8901> hoooohhhhhh we think its done
07:54:28 <esolangs> [[Krypton]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197196&oldid=197161 * X-540 * (+2082) Changed computational class to turing complete and added proof (a brainfuck interpreter)
07:54:45 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197197&oldid=197148 * MarkFan8901 * (-2562) Blanked the page
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07:56:03 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197198&oldid=197195 * MarkFan8901 * (-6) 
07:56:03 <de67> hi guys
07:56:05 <de67> im back
07:56:17 <MarkFan8901> we and yayimheretoo just finished up [[Bitch, Ienai!]]
07:56:19 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197199&oldid=197192 * Ais523 * (+598) /* BF Joust strategies */ another bug
07:56:20 <MarkFan8901> you should check it out
07:56:41 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197200&oldid=196657 * None1 * (+376) 
08:00:19 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197201&oldid=197198 * MarkFan8901 * (+2) 
08:01:27 <yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: EPIIIIIC
08:01:49 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197202&oldid=197201 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+22) 
08:02:30 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: you can work on solving it whenever!!! tell me the results
08:03:56 <de67> "(a whole damn lot of)" ah yes, adhering to the encyclopedic tone, i see
08:04:58 <yayimheretoo> man we Caan break it every now and then
08:06:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197203&oldid=197199 * None1 * (+467) /* BF Joust strategies */
08:07:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197204&oldid=197203 * None1 * (+1) /* BF Joust strategies */
08:07:32 <de67> i just realize
08:07:42 <de67> [[Moggler]] was kinda inspired by [[Not]]
08:08:09 <yayimheretoo> as in MY not?
08:08:18 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197205&oldid=197204 * None1 * (+35) /* BF Joust strategies */
08:08:19 <de67> yuh
08:08:25 <yayimheretoo> nice
08:08:28 <yayimheretoo> lol
08:09:54 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197206&oldid=197205 * Ais523 * (+322) /* BF Joust strategies */ a pair that didn't work
08:10:56 <de67> it was based on the idea of oracle machines
08:11:40 <de67> basically, a turing machine that can call an oracle machine that can compute uncomputable things, is itself equivalent to an uncomputable machine
08:12:00 <de67> but it doesnt have to be about turing machines
08:12:14 <de67> it can be push down automata calling a turing machine
08:12:30 <yayimheretoo> i dont see how the oracle is uncomputable! lol
08:12:30 <de67> which would allow it to do things that pushdown automata normally cant do
08:12:36 <yayimheretoo> ah ok
08:12:49 <de67> which is what [[moggler]] demonstrates
08:14:09 <de67> btw, neither [[Not]] nor [[Moggler]] are actually push down automatons
08:14:19 <de67> s/ons/a
08:14:45 <yayimheretoo> mhm!
08:15:35 <de67> hm, the black box system thing reminds me of those guess languages
08:15:43 <de67> and burn
08:15:47 <de67> and bring to another
08:16:02 <de67> and  end
08:16:12 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197207&oldid=197206 * None1 * (+388) /* BF Joust strategies */  It worked after I expanded the stack size, this should be enough for most other pairs of programs as well.
08:16:17 <de67> theyre all quite interesting due to the mystery
08:17:03 <yayimheretoo> black box system? as in the oracle?
08:17:08 <esolangs> [[Turtlefuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197208&oldid=197200 * None1 * (+119) /* Examples */
08:17:29 <de67> yea
08:18:36 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197209&oldid=197207 * None1 * (+1) /* BF Joust strategies */
08:21:22 <esolangs> [[Checkers]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197210 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+3126) Created page with "'''Checkers''' is a very simple pattern-based esolang created by [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]. ==Description== '''Checkers''' uses a queue of unbounded integers (whether signed or unsinged depends on the implementation) as data, which initially starts with three ze
08:21:36 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197211&oldid=196925 * None1 * (+0) 
08:23:28 <de67> ooh
08:23:35 <de67> new esolang!
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08:24:17 <yayimheretoo> btw PkmnQ are ya gonna try to solve today? its all clear and redy
08:24:39 <PkmnQ> yeah I just had one false start
08:24:48 <PkmnQ> it's not a guarantee that I get a solution but I will certainly try
08:24:56 <yayimheretoo> cool!!
08:25:00 <esolangs> [[Checkers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197212&oldid=197210 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-3) /* Computational class */
08:25:04 <yayimheretoo> hopefullly its more manageable than last time
08:25:21 <yayimheretoo> and feel free to ask me stuff
08:34:42 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197213&oldid=197202 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+0) 
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08:57:22 <esolangs> [[10Brainfuck]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197214&oldid=125454 * JustSomeDude * (+261) Added wikitable for commands, fixed some spelling.
08:58:03 <esolangs> [[User:JustSomeDude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197215&oldid=197055 * JustSomeDude * (+16) 
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09:03:35 <yayimheretoo> btw Markfan8901 when do you think you'll have time to try and solve?
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09:10:46 <esolangs> [[Interpret Esolangs Online]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197216&oldid=192813 * None1 * (+11) /* Introduction */  Add [[Thue]], even though it's boring
09:12:49 <esolangs> [[Thue]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197217&oldid=191701 * None1 * (+162) /* External resources */
09:13:12 <esolangs> [[User:None1]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197218&oldid=197211 * None1 * (+24) /* My Implementations */
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09:38:10 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197219&oldid=197080 * Ayaandh * (+106) Added introduction
09:44:55 <esolangs> [[Gridify]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197220&oldid=196708 * Cordership * (-2) /* Hello, World! 2 */
09:47:05 <esolangs> [[Tekst]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197221 * Ayaandh * (+9663) Created page for the Tekst programming language
09:47:28 <esolangs> [[Tekst]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197222&oldid=197221 * Ayaandh * (-9663) Blanked the page
09:49:03 <de67> whar
09:49:23 <esolangs> [[MinskyX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197223 * Cordership * (+1577) Created page with "MinskyX is an esolang by [[User:Cordership]], derived from [[Portable Minsky Machine Notation]]. ==Syntax== Same as PMMN, with changes: * Counters are now referred to as c0, c1, ... * Direct assignment (A counter can be an integer only)  <i>counter</i> = <i>value</i>
09:49:34 <esolangs> [[MinskyX]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197224&oldid=197223 * Cordership * (+0) /* Cat program */
09:49:47 <esolangs> [[MinskyX]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197225&oldid=197224 * Cordership * (+0) /* Cat program */
09:50:04 <esolangs> [[User:Cordership]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197226&oldid=196953 * Cordership * (+14) /* Esolangs */
09:50:09 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: we have like all the free time on our hands
09:50:15 <MarkFan8901> its really a question of if/when we feel up to it
09:50:27 <MarkFan8901> but we do wanna try our hand at solving this honestly
09:50:29 <esolangs> [[Tekst]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197227&oldid=197222 * Ayaandh * (+4721) Added all content
09:51:39 <esolangs> [[Tekst]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197228&oldid=197227 * Ayaandh * (+2) Fixed syntax error
09:52:20 <esolangs> [[Tekst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197229&oldid=197228 * Ayaandh * (+4) Fixed error
09:52:37 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: heck yea!!!
09:53:09 <esolangs> [[MinskyX]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197230&oldid=197225 * Cordership * (+56) /* Syntax */
09:54:44 <esolangs> [[Tekst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197231&oldid=197229 * Dragoneater67 * (-107) 
09:56:32 <esolangs> [[Tekst]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197232&oldid=197231 * Ayaandh * (-15) Fixed module syntax
09:58:00 <de67> hm
09:58:12 <de67> the website for [[Tekst]] seems to be ai generated
09:58:31 <de67> to be more specific, it smells like gpt output
09:58:32 <MarkFan8901> yea it also seems to be another not very esoteric language
09:58:44 <MarkFan8901> oh theres also borked wiki text
09:58:58 <MarkFan8901> or at least there Was broken wiki test
09:59:19 <ChimeraAnova> That was probably markdown
09:59:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tekst]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197233 * Dragoneater67 * (+192) Created page with "this does not quite look esoteric --~~~~"
09:59:50 <ChimeraAnova> Second time a clearly non-esoteric language made it onto the wiki
10:00:15 <MarkFan8901> and unfortunately the zillionth time an ai generated language made it on the wiki
10:00:54 <de67> im not sure if i should tag the page as slop
10:01:07 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197234&oldid=170879 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+798) Corrected the examples and added TC proof by translating Yurt's building blocks into it, so it isn't the most efficent
10:01:08 <MarkFan8901> probably should
10:01:09 <ChimeraAnova> [[Inthon]] I think is the first example of a very non-esoteric language mainly off the wiki making its prescence on the wiki
10:01:13 <ChimeraAnova> Yaeh I second that
10:01:25 <de67> alr
10:01:36 <MarkFan8901> ChimeraAnova: jesus christ
10:01:41 <esolangs> [[Tekst]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197235&oldid=197232 * Dragoneater67 * (+29) /* External resources */ also tag slop
10:01:51 <MarkFan8901> just got blasted with coprorate design
10:01:53 <ChimeraAnova> ?
10:01:55 <MarkFan8901> corporate*
10:01:59 <MarkFan8901> that logo they have on there
10:02:01 <ChimeraAnova> [[Inthon]] website or [[Tekst]]?
10:02:14 <MarkFan8901> inthon wiki page
10:02:19 <ChimeraAnova> Oh yeah that lmao
10:02:38 <MarkFan8901> yea what in the goddamn shit
10:02:42 <MarkFan8901> that like needs to be deleted
10:02:42 <esolangs> [[Yurt]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197236&oldid=194724 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-295) Moved -c part to the end of translated instructions
10:02:45 <de67> the reason i dont mark ai slop tagging as a minor edit is to hopefully catch the attention of page author that it was marked as slop, and action may be required
10:02:54 <MarkFan8901> yeah
10:02:57 <ChimeraAnova> I guess these people want more free advertising for their shit languages
10:03:02 <MarkFan8901> also we feel like there's probably much earlier examples of non-esoteric languages being on this wiki
10:03:15 <ChimeraAnova> MarkFan8901: Processor/1, W32 Titanium, and BellBase
10:03:16 <MarkFan8901> ChimeraAnova: we feel like for inthon specifically that is the case
10:03:24 <MarkFan8901> wait actually we need to re-check teksts page
10:03:27 <de67> holy shit [[Inthon]] is so obnoxious
10:03:36 <ChimeraAnova> MarkFan8901: Yeah the page literally reads like a promotion
10:03:37 <de67> theres no fixing it
10:03:40 <ChimeraAnova> (for Inthon)
10:03:43 <de67> the only remedy is deletion
10:03:45 <MarkFan8901> RIGHT!?!?!?!?!
10:03:59 <MarkFan8901> its so obnoxiously gpt-3
10:04:02 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197237&oldid=197234 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+40) /* Computational class */
10:04:02 <yayimheretoo> oh god. im writing the Bitch, Ienai! story page... time to pull up sum fuckin' LOGS
10:04:12 <ChimeraAnova> de67: You *can* fix it, however the language is not esoteric and has been proven to not be good at its job so it should not be here
10:04:15 <ChimeraAnova> (Inthon)
10:04:25 <MarkFan8901> EUGH
10:04:26 <MarkFan8901> the website
10:04:27 <MarkFan8901> for tekst
10:04:31 <de67> MarkFan8901: i think the history page would fit esolanging.wiki very well
10:04:46 <MarkFan8901> for which lang
10:04:56 <de67> Bitch, Ienai!
10:05:02 <MarkFan8901> oh yea it would
10:05:04 <yayimheretoo> de67: hat should have been *me*
10:05:07 <yayimheretoo> lol
10:05:09 <MarkFan8901> ^
10:05:15 <yayimheretoo> ill add it there too.
10:05:34 <MarkFan8901> when you add it there make sure to note that its spoilers for a constraint language
10:05:51 <yayimheretoo> its on a subpage called "History and spoilers"...
10:05:59 <MarkFan8901> we mean on esolanging.wiki
10:06:08 <yayimheretoo> ahh yes I will
10:06:28 <de67> MarkFan8901: [[Inthon]] was made quite recently, so i doubt it was actually made by gpt-3, perhaps it was made by a much newer model
10:06:29 <de67> gpt-3 afaik was made in 2022-2023
10:06:34 <yayimheretoo> tbh... I might just make a full "constraint language" history page on esolanging and link it from the Bitch, Ienai! page
10:06:49 <MarkFan8901> ye that sounds like a good idea
10:06:52 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!/History and Spoilers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197238&oldid=197136 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+19) delete this page.
10:06:55 <MarkFan8901> de67: thats fair
10:07:11 <MarkFan8901> it fucking reeks of gpt though
10:07:19 <de67> ikik
10:07:29 <MarkFan8901> its like the guy who wrote it changed the output to be even more like older gpt models
10:08:10 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!/History and Spoilers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197239&oldid=197238 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+38) use template
10:08:38 <yayimheretoo> ah yes I forgot
10:09:07 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197240&oldid=197213 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-153) 
10:09:40 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197241&oldid=197237 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-1) /* Computational class */
10:10:40 <esolangs> [[User:PkmnQ/Golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197242&oldid=197065 * PkmnQ * (+92) should probably clarify this
10:12:25 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197243&oldid=197241 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-825) Oh, I forgot it was "if not zero"
10:14:25 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197244&oldid=197240 * MarkFan8901 * (+0) 
10:14:31 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197245&oldid=197243 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* Computational class */ grmamar
10:14:37 <de67> "grmamar"
10:14:44 <yayimheretoo> lul
10:21:45 <esolangs> [[Unstoppable]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197246&oldid=163697 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+69) Language on the talk page is enough to prove it TC
10:24:57 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197247&oldid=197245 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) "as" is correct here I think
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10:25:43 <de67> damn
10:26:19 <esolangs> [[Xaxa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197248&oldid=197247 * Dragoneater67 * (-47) /* Truth-machine */
10:27:27 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197249&oldid=197244 * MarkFan8901 * (+12) 
10:27:33 <MarkFan8901> This changes everything.
10:28:06 <esolangs> [[ChooseNumber]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197250&oldid=193242 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+58) It is equivalent to Miny
10:29:56 <esolangs> [[User:Eekee]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197251&oldid=196751 * Eekee * (+265) revise, focus on the interpreters in forth project, less negative
10:45:57 <esolangs> [[User:Eekee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197252&oldid=197251 * Eekee * (-111) forgot a word
10:57:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Benjaminfberger *  New user account
11:01:34 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197253&oldid=197219 * Benjaminfberger * (+30) 
11:01:54 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197254 * Benjaminfberger * (+632) Created page with "'''nandcode (v1.0.0)'''  This language explores the absolute limits of computational minimalism by using NAND as its sole logical operation. Every logical gate, variable mutation, and hardware component is built entirely by chaining and reusing variables with th
11:02:23 <MarkFan8901> doesnt that like, already exist
11:04:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197255&oldid=197083 * Benjaminfberger * (+15) /* N */
11:05:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nandcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197256 * MarkFan8901 * (+320) /* this premise has already been done several times */ new section
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11:07:42 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197257&oldid=197249 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Definitions */
11:08:18 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197258&oldid=197257 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+63) /* Definitions */
11:08:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197259&oldid=197256 * Dragoneater67 * (+310) 
11:09:07 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197260&oldid=197258 * MarkFan8901 * (-13) 
11:09:16 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197261&oldid=197260 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+4) /* Rules */
11:12:10 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197262&oldid=197261 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+168) /* Rules */ idk I think this is important to note
11:13:46 <yayimheretoo> hmmm
11:13:54 <yayimheretoo> i wanna solve this
11:14:31 <MarkFan8901> we are neck deep in solving this
11:15:07 <MarkFan8901> also do you mean that entities have to be equivalent to some semi-entity
11:16:02 <yayimheretoo> I mean like, when defining na entity theres no more information added than the name. so semi entities are always also either written as a function or as a value
11:16:04 <yayimheretoo> uknow
11:16:26 <MarkFan8901> okay okay
11:16:33 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197263&oldid=197254 * Benjaminfberger * (+3768) 
11:16:44 <yayimheretoo> I cant WAIT to see your solution(but no pressure)
11:17:14 <ChimeraAnova> If only that number were 1000 lower
11:17:21 <ChimeraAnova> *1005
11:17:29 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197264&oldid=197263 * Benjaminfberger * (-7) 
11:17:35 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197265&oldid=197264 * Dragoneater67 * (+29) /* External Resources */ tag slop
11:17:57 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197266&oldid=197265 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-32) No need to specify esoteric languages, this wiki's full of them!
11:19:03 <MarkFan8901> dude our solution is so goofy
11:19:14 <MarkFan8901> its not done yet tho
11:19:28 <yayimheretoo> lmmmao
11:19:32 <APic> Hi
11:19:34 <yayimheretoo> wtf does goofy mean lol
11:19:40 <yayimheretoo> Hi APic!!
11:19:48 <MarkFan8901> hi APic
11:19:56 <APic> Heya MarkFan8901, yayimheretoo     😌
11:20:07 <yayimheretoo> APic: we have Made sum pretty wild discoveries the last day
11:20:12 <APic> 👍
11:20:13 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: you couldnt have possibly accounted for the poopage we are unleashing on the constraints rn
11:20:46 <yayimheretoo> markfan8901: lmao
11:20:47 <de67> hi APic
11:21:01 <MarkFan8901> hi de67
11:21:04 <yayimheretoo> remember to include a proof that It follows the constraints
11:21:07 <yayimheretoo> hi de67
11:21:15 <MarkFan8901> hi yayimheretoo
11:21:24 <yayimheretoo> ok wow
11:21:28 <de67> ive always been here..
11:21:31 <MarkFan8901> hi MarkFan8901
11:21:47 <APic> Hi de67 
11:21:48 <APic> ☺
11:22:36 <yayimheretoo> de67: sure sure
11:23:54 <PkmnQ> why so many NAND languages but no NOR languages :(
11:24:08 <de67> PkmnQ NAND is more popular than nor
11:24:25 <yayimheretoo> because people have skill issue
11:24:28 <yayimheretoo> n
11:24:30 <yayimheretoo> lmao
11:24:39 <de67> i think i remember wanting to make an oisc called NORZ
11:24:42 <MarkFan8901> why no and languages:(
11:24:51 <yayimheretoo> who nows maybe a NOR solution exists for Bitch, Ienai!
11:24:53 <de67> but it ended up becomming a command in a user edited language
11:25:04 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: because its USELESS /j
11:25:08 <ChimeraAnova> XAND better
11:25:17 <MarkFan8901> xnot*
11:25:31 <MarkFan8901> what about xrelay
11:30:18 <MarkFan8901> gosh so we have a strong base
11:30:23 <MarkFan8901> but now we need to make it actually interesting
11:32:22 <de67> i love xnor so much
11:32:37 <de67> its like bitwise check for equality
11:32:49 <MarkFan8901> true
11:32:52 <de67> returns 1 if 2 bits are equal, returns 0 otherwise
11:43:18 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197267&oldid=197266 * Benjaminfberger * (-29) 
11:43:47 <MarkFan8901> HA
11:43:54 <MarkFan8901> ChimeraAnova: they got rid of your ai generated tag
11:44:50 <ChimeraAnova> MarkFan8901: I didn't place one
11:45:00 <ChimeraAnova> That was de67
11:45:08 <MarkFan8901> wait ya we got you two mixed up
11:45:26 <ChimeraAnova> I don't categorize pages as AI slop unless I'm absolutely positively sure and that's very rare (only happened once)
11:45:37 <ChimeraAnova> Wait no
11:45:41 <ChimeraAnova> Actually
11:45:44 <ChimeraAnova> 50/50
11:45:51 <ChimeraAnova> idk
11:46:03 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197268&oldid=197267 * Dragoneater67 * (+29) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197267|197267]] by [[Special:Contributions/Benjaminfberger|Benjaminfberger]] ([[User talk:Benjaminfberger|talk]]) the page was obviously written by an llm
11:46:16 <ChimeraAnova> Rapid response times
11:46:56 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197269&oldid=197262 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* Rules */ use ** isntead of :*
11:48:02 <ChimeraAnova> `? locale
11:48:06 <HackEso> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The one true locale in #esolangs is en_NZ.UTF-8.
11:48:14 <yayimheretoo> yoooo
11:48:35 <yayimheretoo> YOU CANT QUIT ME IRC. so yea just needed to do that so I dont time out
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11:50:24 <de67> that aged poorly
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11:51:06 <ChimeraAnova> irc got them
11:51:07 <ChimeraAnova> nvm
11:51:26 <de67> yayimheretoo: have you considered installing an irc client?
11:51:40 <de67> itll have a much more stable connection than any web irc client
11:51:45 <yayimheretoo> ChimeraAnova: *her
11:51:59 <yayimheretoo> de67: my computer wont have no space
11:52:31 <ChimeraAnova> wait what do you use then?
11:52:31 <de67> how small your hard drive has to be to not have any space at all???
11:52:38 <de67> ChimeraAnova: web client
11:52:39 <ChimeraAnova> oh right
11:52:44 <ChimeraAnova> I somehow skipped a line
11:52:45 <de67> i think she uses gamja specifically
11:52:57 <yayimheretoo> I use libera
11:53:01 <ChimeraAnova> kiwi irc?
11:53:05 <ChimeraAnova> (the web one)
11:53:14 <de67> yayimheretoo: libera is an irc network, not a web client
11:53:16 <yayimheretoo> de67: I mean idk how large an irc client is
11:53:28 <de67> yayimheretoo: it should be pretty small
11:53:29 <yayimheretoo> de67: well then idfk
11:53:42 <yayimheretoo> de67: idk maybe I will then
11:53:43 <de67> yayimhere: are you using the kiwi one or the grey one?
11:53:57 <yayimheretoo> errrrm. kiwi? prolly?
11:54:15 <de67> yayimheretoo: what do you see when its loading?
11:54:25 <de67> is there a kiwi?
11:54:32 <MarkFan8901> we want kiwis now
11:54:37 <yayimheretoo> theres a kiwi as the icon next to thhefan
11:54:39 <de67> also i just realized that kiwi is an annagram for wiki
11:54:49 <esolangs> [[User:Eekee]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197270&oldid=197252 * Eekee * (+118) fix floopy minor edit
11:55:00 <de67> yayimheretoo: then youre using kiwi irc
11:55:05 <de67> which is a web client
11:55:05 <yayimheretoo> Markfan8901: ok, KiwiFan8901, AKA PancakeFan8901 /j
11:55:10 <yayimheretoo> de67: great
11:55:12 <yayimheretoo> lol
11:55:31 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
11:55:32 <MarkFan8901> WAAAAAAAA
11:55:41 <MarkFan8901>  /playful
11:56:45 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197271&oldid=197268 * Benjaminfberger * (+117) Add disclaimer
11:56:51 <yayimheretoo> hey markfan, could you join the esolanging wiki please? it would make me happy. and then also you can edit the constraint language history page
11:57:17 <de67> it would make me happy too!
11:57:59 <MarkFan8901> olay
11:58:16 <de67> also, i just realized that none of what im doing matters since eventually fungot will set everything on fire anyway
11:58:16 <fungot> de67: that has uber fnord? args) ( for-each display ' ( 1 2 3) using bfbasic, 4)
11:58:30 <ChimeraAnova> fungot
11:58:30 <fungot> ChimeraAnova: we want superb html support
11:58:36 <de67> yes!
11:58:36 <ChimeraAnova> we already have that
11:58:38 <ChimeraAnova> but 
11:58:47 <ChimeraAnova> only thing we dont have is html recognition as program language
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12:06:48 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197272&oldid=197197 * MarkFan8901 * (+1038) 
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12:49:11 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197273&oldid=197076 * BlueHaunter * (+17) 
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13:08:40 <yayimheretoo> hi:)
13:09:00 <yayimheretoo> btw Markfan8901 im near discovering a solution. how is u doing?
13:09:12 <yayimheretoo> als I like the fact you brought back u(I saw your sandbox)
13:12:23 <esolangs> [[Bitch, Ienai!]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197274&oldid=197269 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+87) /* Rules */
13:25:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197275&oldid=197253 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+275) /* Introductions */
13:25:43 <esolangs> [[User:IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197276 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+410) Created page with "= IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions = As the name suggests, I make ridiculously terrible Esolangs, terrible only for the programmer. == New to me? == You can find my worst one here: [https://www.google.com/searchq?=Not+here+ye
13:26:49 <esolangs> [[User:IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197277&oldid=197276 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+0) 
13:27:34 <esolangs> [[User:IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197278&oldid=197277 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+10) 
13:33:19 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197279&oldid=197273 * BlueHaunter * (+15083) 
13:37:46 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197280&oldid=197279 * BlueHaunter * (+680) 
13:48:05 <esolangs> [[Checkers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197281&oldid=197212 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+41) 
13:48:13 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197282&oldid=197280 * Dragoneater67 * (+29) /* Drawing a Shape in Ceremonial (graphics test + drawing a window) */ tag slop
13:49:07 <esolangs> [[Checkers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197283&oldid=197281 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-65) 
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13:56:50 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * BlueHaunter *  uploaded "[[File:Cmnl5.png]]"
14:00:01 <esolangs> [[Ceremonial]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197285&oldid=197282 * BlueHaunter * (-804) 
14:01:56 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload  * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions *  uploaded "[[File:This is 1 way to be asked questions.png]]"
14:02:20 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197287&oldid=196977 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+13) 
14:02:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tekst]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197288&oldid=197233 * None1 * (+311) 
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14:18:37 <esolangs> [[X strike]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197289&oldid=164833 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+13) I am sure if arguments could be only positive then it would be TC only if it allowed negative integers as data
14:23:15 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197290&oldid=197271 * Benjaminfberger * (+66) Clarify that the language is not turing complete.
14:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197291&oldid=197287 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-44) Actually 5++ is basically Dranoer but with "if not zero" removed
14:41:15 <esolangs> [[Book of Truth]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197292&oldid=175257 *  * (+76) Categorization.
14:54:47 <esolangs> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197293&oldid=189457 * Qazwsxplm * (+204) 
14:59:41 <esolangs> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197294&oldid=197293 * Qazwsxplm * (+40) 
15:02:39 <esolangs> [[ASCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197295&oldid=197294 * Qazwsxplm * (+0) 
15:10:45 <esolangs> [[5++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197296&oldid=173989 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+1646) It is Turing-complete
15:11:28 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197297&oldid=197291 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+9) /* Turing-completness Proofs */
15:12:41 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197298&oldid=197070 * Blashyrkh * (+1957) /* Lazy K - Quine */ Much smaller with right fold lists (2523 > 1875)
15:13:59 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197299&oldid=197042 * Blashyrkh * (+22) Shorter [[Quine]] @ [[Lazy K]] (2523 > 1875)
15:16:42 <esolangs> [[5++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197300&oldid=197296 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+5) /* Computational class */
15:51:07 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197301&oldid=197298 * Blashyrkh * (+0) /* 1875 bytes */ Now exit code=0, same size
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16:29:53 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197302&oldid=197301 * Blashyrkh * (+1894) /* Lazy K - Quine */ 1875 > 1755
16:32:02 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197303&oldid=197299 * Blashyrkh * (+22) Shorter [[Quine]] @ [[Lazy K]] (1875 > 1755)
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16:39:19 <esolangs> [[Unrandom]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197304&oldid=192558 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+37) 
16:39:29 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/Solve1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197305 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+376) Created page with "entities are 4-tuples: {{cd|(S,,,{(),(),(),(),(),(),(),...},{,,,,,,,,...})}}<br>  is value,  is transform. An entity is {{cd|MT}} until its {{cd|}} or {{cd|}} is put inside another entity, in which it becomes {{cd|VT}}. If the function that made 
16:39:52 <esolangs> [[Non-Random]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197306&oldid=190890 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+35) 
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16:41:19 <yayimheretoo> hi again!!!
16:46:23 <esolangs> [[5++]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197307&oldid=197300 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+0) /* Computational class */
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17:46:19 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 6]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197308&oldid=197150 * Zzo38 * (+71) 
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17:56:43 <esolangs> [[Checkers]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197309&oldid=197283 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (-274) /* Computational class */  don't think that is needed
18:06:15 <aadenboy> good morning
18:08:39 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197310&oldid=185253 * Menguinponky * (-28) 
18:12:00 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197311&oldid=197310 * Menguinponky * (-28) 
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18:40:30 <esolangs> [[Nandcode]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197312&oldid=197290 * Aadenboy * (+103) re-tag slop w/ comment
18:51:33 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197313&oldid=197311 * Menguinponky * (-4) 
18:55:42 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197314&oldid=197313 * Menguinponky * (-26) 
18:57:11 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197315&oldid=197314 * Menguinponky * (+3) 
18:58:45 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197316&oldid=197315 * Menguinponky * (-97) 
18:59:48 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197317&oldid=197316 * Menguinponky * (-85) 
19:01:07 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197318&oldid=197317 * Menguinponky * (+29) 
19:03:39 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197319&oldid=197318 * Menguinponky * (-15) 
19:04:25 <esolangs> [[Monky]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197320&oldid=197319 * Menguinponky * (-50) 
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19:31:59 <ais523> I'm not totally sure Inthon isn't an esolang, some of the language features are bizarre (such as explicit syntax to spawn subagents)
19:32:29 <ais523> (as opposed to Tekst which appears to be a practice language with no esoteric features)
19:33:02 <esolangs> [[Angelfrick]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197321&oldid=188924 * Acidbytes.h * (-29) 
19:33:10 <ais523> but, the Inthon page is written in an especially commercialized/advertisey sort of way
19:33:45 <esolangs> [[Angelfrick--]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197322&oldid=188926 * Acidbytes.h * (-29) 
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20:34:04 <APic> cu
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21:15:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * Rock Pie *  New user account
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21:26:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197323&oldid=197275 * Rock Pie * (+358) Hello, world!
21:32:52 <esolangs> [[User:Rock Pie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197324 * Rock Pie * (+62) Created page with "hi  i programming  https://github.com/rock3tsprocket/stacklan/"
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22:22:34 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197325&oldid=197272 * MarkFan8901 * (+1182) 
22:42:34 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197326&oldid=197325 * MarkFan8901 * (-10) 
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22:55:52 <MarkFan8901> ChimeraAnova: could you proofread our current description of our solution for [[Bitch, Ienai!]]
22:56:02 <MarkFan8901> its @ [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]
22:56:22 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197327&oldid=197326 * MarkFan8901 * (+181) 
22:57:03 <ChimeraAnova> Wdym proofread
22:57:10 <ChimeraAnova> What kind of proofreading
22:57:13 <MarkFan8901> like read it to make sure it makes sense
22:58:15 <MarkFan8901> pls ask questions about stuff that needs clarification
22:58:21 <MarkFan8901> (if you wanna ofc)
23:08:41 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197328&oldid=197327 * MarkFan8901 * (-11) 
23:10:05 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197329&oldid=197328 * MarkFan8901 * (-21) 
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23:19:34 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197330&oldid=197329 * MarkFan8901 * (+229) 
23:22:50 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197331&oldid=197330 * MarkFan8901 * (-5) 
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23:55:32 <esolangs> [[User:MarkFan8901/Sandbox]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197332&oldid=197331 * MarkFan8901 * (+35)