> 1791244813 761415 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197471&oldid=197469 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+118) 10
> 1791245058 850171 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197472&oldid=197470 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-1912) 10
< 1791246066 71479 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791246129 221330 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1791246144 901003 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1791248873 466947 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197473&oldid=197472 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-13) 10
> 1791248877 547354 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Proof of solution14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197474 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+3442) 10Created page with "This is the proof that Solution 1 fits the constraints of Bitch, Ienai!. It is suggested that you refresh your mind on its' constraints first before reading.  == Definitions == * Values are lambdas. * Transforms are also lambdas. * Semi-entities
> 1791248880 311804 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197475&oldid=197471 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-3367) 10
> 1791249073 319914 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 114]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197476&oldid=197475 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-117) 10
> 1791249117 160625 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197477&oldid=197473 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-226) 10
> 1791249155 811695 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197478&oldid=197477 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-30) 10
> 1791249270 830960 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197479&oldid=197478 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+147) 10
> 1791249292 92821 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Extracted14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197480&oldid=197479 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+3) 10
> 1791249412 410707 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Proof of solution14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197481&oldid=197474 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+10) 10fix code + reword
< 1791249447 486696 :ajal!~ambylastn@46.162.147.147.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement
> 1791249506 350757 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Proof of solution14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197482&oldid=197481 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-16) 10
> 1791249869 559794 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Solution 1/Proof of solution14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197483&oldid=197482 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+2) 10
< 1791249872 274964 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :running on a faster system led to 45.38s and by changing the recursion to iteration it got to 45.08s
< 1791249918 808010 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait what are you implementing again
< 1791249935 487924 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Countable in C
< 1791249942 258499 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :o right
< 1791249946 895793 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking at countable
< 1791249994 729575 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://aadenboy.github.io/miscellaneous/countable.c <- there's probably ways to optimize this but this is my first Dynamic Array™ so I'm not going crazy
< 1791250023 665609 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :solution to dynamic arrays:
< 1791250031 497096 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :1. allocate all memory on your system
< 1791250035 990668 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :2. now you cant read out of bounds
< 1791250045 230294 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :True...
< 1791250096 972397 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :my reallocation did try doing exactly that several times since I hadn't realized I needed to move pointers after reallocating
< 1791250113 450170 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :funny
< 1791250136 484669 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea the details of memory management are especially subtle
< 1791250240 768540 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a fun puzzle
> 1791250445 710226 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nandcode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197484&oldid=197455 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+310) 10dont delete others' comments
> 1791251476 983675 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cleverxia/golfing results14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197485&oldid=196731 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+79) 10add primes and wow, blashyrkh is an excellent golfer
> 1791251846 825319 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turtlefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197486&oldid=192055 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+245) 10
< 1791251864 156140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh. in aadenboy's code, defining `and`, `or`, `xor`, `pow` as macros makes me a bit worried, even though they realistically probably won't cause problems, they still seem like a bad idea
< 1791251903 265337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the first three are keywords, the last is a C standard library function name, they could be mentioned in other macros that you expand in your code
< 1791252113 356023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :is the "bn.c" include that this code mentions available somewhere?
> 1791252822 316742 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nandcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197487&oldid=197484 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+538) 10
> 1791252873 153153 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Nandcode14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197488&oldid=197487 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+7) 10
> 1791252995 617906 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Aadenboy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197489&oldid=197457 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5* (+4) 10/* MolKnuFnuKowSepMolEnuNnuEnuKowSepMolEnuNnuLnuKowSepMolEnuNnuLnuKowSepMolEnuEnuEnuKow! ("Hello!" in Mouthshitter) */
> 1791253467 158093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197490&oldid=197439 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+232) 10
> 1791253477 992048 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197491&oldid=197490 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+1) 10
< 1791253894 918022 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1791254791 22278 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791254946 279028 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: https://github.com/kokke/tiny-bignum-c
< 1791255071 218087 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: why dont you just use bounded number for countable?
< 1791255101 397203 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then it wouldn't be tc
< 1791255115 208639 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or do you mean implementation-wise?
< 1791255172 316794 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :implementation-wise
< 1791255196 194511 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I could, but the lib is shiny and attractive
< 1791255210 1646 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: keep it simple, stupid!
< 1791255216 292888 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :No!!
< 1791255216 331228 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791255220 259438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: thank you
< 1791255231 498006 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the library really is quite simple for what its doing
< 1791255259 70667 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :tho id still avoid any usage of bugnums cuz int is all i need
< 1791255262 467592 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :I had written something dealing with big numbers but only for converting between decimal and base 128, so not all of the functions such as addition, multiplication, etc. The proper big integer implementation is useful for more purposes than that, although it only has unsigned and not base 128 but base 128 is probably not useful other than the specific case I did but signed is useful in some programs.
< 1791255265 232814 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you do you
< 1791255338 946008 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :However, that library that you mentioned, also can only use a fixed size instead of dynamic, but static and dynamic can be useful for different purposes.
< 1791255399 188712 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :(They also don't seem to have modular inversion and modular exponentiation)
< 1791255414 602677 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: does that library have no ordered comparisons?
< 1791255452 713872 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm not familiar with those
< 1791255484 501419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :aadenboy: as in a function that tells you whether one of those bignums is less than another one
< 1791255506 202605 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cmp()?
< 1791255545 590881 :zzo38!~zzo38@host-24-207-46-238.public.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esolangs :They have bignum_cmp function, so does do comparison, it look like
< 1791255553 816578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I'm just blind
< 1791255624 637863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :thank you
< 1791256898 921423 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1791256941 70724 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791260254 682636 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :goodnightish
> 1791260348 802053 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Ais523 5*  10moved [[02Kcufniarb10]] to [[Kcufniarb (Buckets)]]: pseudo-duplicated language name (the page about this language is called kcufniarb because the real name isn't legal as a page title, whereas I created a language actually called kcufniarb)
> 1791260425 328959 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (Buckets)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197494&oldid=197492 5* 03Ais523 5* (+71) 10disambig hatnote
< 1791260549 90299 :somefan!~somefan@user/somefan QUIT :Quit: seeya later
> 1791260588 776806 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197495&oldid=197493 5* 03Ais523 5* (+348) 10create disambig page
> 1791260645 559623 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197496&oldid=197495 5* 03Raiseafloppafan7741 5* (+21) 10declarative paradigm redlink?
< 1791260782 808841 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :gn aadenboy
> 1791262589 863964 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197497&oldid=197491 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5* (+210) 10
> 1791262707 219822 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197498&oldid=197497 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+204) 10/* General */
> 1791262872 808589 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197499&oldid=197498 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5* (+186) 10
> 1791262965 455070 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197500&oldid=197499 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+209) 10/* General */
> 1791263174 529284 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197501 5* 03Ais523 5* (+7593) 10new language (if the wiki is going to be filled with BF derivatives I may as well try to make an interesting one)
< 1791263205 107419 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 242 seconds
< 1791263216 76566 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
> 1791263222 835704 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197502&oldid=197255 5* 03Ais523 5* (+35) 10/* K */ +[[kcufniarb (ais523)]]
> 1791263242 22873 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197503&oldid=197501 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+21) 10fix redlink
> 1791263257 418210 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197504&oldid=182056 5* 03Ais523 5* (+34) 10+[[kcufniarb (ais523)]]
< 1791263313 430440 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :no one is safe from slopocalypse!!!
> 1791263320 722862 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197505&oldid=197503 5* 03Ais523 5* (-21) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197503|197503]] by [[Special:Contributions/Dragoneater67|Dragoneater67]] ([[User talk:Dragoneater67|talk]])  a redlink is an indication that a page should exist but doesn't, in this situation the correct way to fix it is to create the page (
> 1791263348 293565 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Declarative14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197506 5* 03Ais523 5* (+34) 10redirect to the page on this subject
< 1791263383 176483 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: Not even ?
< 1791263395 116849 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1791263400 991412 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ChimeraAnova: note even ?
< 1791263408 461201 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :s/note/not/
< 1791263412 906743 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the real question is, is kcufniarb different enough from brainfuck to go onto the semi-serious languages list
< 1791263423 780120 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's a borderline example (and am not adding it myself)
< 1791263464 37081 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791263467 994915 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(also de67, please don't fix redlinks by editing the link unless they are typoed or the like – the correct fix is to create the page, as a redirect if it would be a duplicate)
< 1791263474 681378 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791263507 168285 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think that reversiblr kcufniarb could be interestinf
< 1791263510 834486 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :people don't link to nonexistent pages nearly often enough, but it is one of the ways wikis grow, and creating pages under names that people use also helps the search feature find the pages properly
< 1791263514 164919 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and maybe easier to implement
< 1791263536 598459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :reversible kcufniarb isn't meaningfully different from reversible brainfuck, you don't get any nondeterministic choices
< 1791263548 586156 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :can just deterministically run the program backwards from the all-zeroes ending state
< 1791263580 293776 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1791263602 105496 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
< 1791263639 359254 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1791263954 740368 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill try to implement kcufniarb
< 1791263988 707304 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I was considering implementing it myself, but I'm ill at the moment and couldn't scrape together the energy
< 1791263998 567265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(and in general I hate implementing declarative languages, they're fun to program in but not fun to implement)
< 1791264061 96912 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: my impl is gonna be naive, its just gonna iterate over every initial finite tape state
< 1791264065 926275 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :except for Prolog without extensions, I had fun implementing that (when I was much younger) but it's only marginally declarative because it has a defined search order
< 1791264086 265468 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :could work (although it might be too slow to run any nontrivial programs)
< 1791264091 502730 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791264094 551428 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wonder whether my example program is correct
< 1791264106 301852 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :what should be done about programs that may or may not halt?
< 1791264116 786606 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :like this one: +[+]
< 1791264120 616968 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait
< 1791264129 272477 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they halt or not based on the initial tape
< 1791264131 747508 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this one +[>+]
< 1791264144 746615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :that also halts or not based on the initial tape
< 1791264147 268790 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait
< 1791264149 18964 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791264153 765494 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the trick is, if the program doesn't halt, you have no way to tell
< 1791264157 748427 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[+]+[]
< 1791264161 666117 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you have to keep running it while you are searching for new tapes
< 1791264169 546092 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :[+]+[] never halts I think
< 1791264169 757603 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791264207 970059 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :implementing declarative languages almost always requires running multiple different programs in parallel and stopping when any of them halt
< 1791264219 675690 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it has to be concurrent
< 1791264229 570593 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats amazing
< 1791264235 26487 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i love race condition
< 1791264257 6755 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes (although normally you don't use actual OS threads, you just cycle through the programs)
< 1791264257 956268 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eh, pthreads will do
< 1791264300 143321 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill start writing it once i get home
< 1791264331 226615 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I am not convinced that you'll find the correct starting tape before you hit the OS limit on the number of threads in a single process (or the number of processes+threads on the system as a whole)
< 1791264348 296828 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it might still be interesting to try
< 1791264367 948573 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if that doesnt work, ill use round robin scheduling
< 1791264381 473890 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :round robin scheduling would never betray me
< 1791264383 359541 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :round robin is my usual approach for this sort of thing
< 1791264396 69703 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but ill try pthreads first
< 1791264473 394374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: sometimes writing an implementation for an esoteric language can make sense even when the language is so inefficient that you can't run any program in the implementation, just to make the description of the language less ambiguous because the implementation source code specifies the rules. 
< 1791264481 674665 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: yes
< 1791264530 724660 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: but what if the impl is buggy and no one notices?
< 1791264531 524845 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but of course you have to be careful with which parts of the rules are mandatory and which ones are unspecified and just happen to work in some way in the implementation
< 1791264586 507265 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I've been wondering whether it's valid to use a 64-bit integer to implement a bignum, on the basis that the implementation isn't optimized enough to use bignums outside the 64-bit integer range anyway (i.e. you couldn't run it for long enough to get outside the range)
< 1791264621 84380 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :computers are bounded anyway, so who cares?
< 1791264624 6053 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this comes up in particular with Three Star Programmer, where bignums are relied on for TCness but you will run out of memory before the bignums get outside the 64-bit integer range
< 1791264660 741113 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: I think it depends on whether the program is meant to be an implementation for practical use, or a specification
< 1791264668 841749 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the practical-use implementations can add limits, a specification can't
< 1791264687 697911 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a specification should be written in [[English]]
< 1791264699 803642 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the most computationally powerful language
< 1791264708 425945 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so powerful that its uncomputable
> 1791265351 102868 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197507&oldid=189550 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+138) 10/* Overview */ use <code> instead of <tt>
> 1791265365 377065 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07 14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197508&oldid=197507 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (-1) 10/* Overview */
< 1791265389 810170 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow, [[ ]] is my fav esolang
> 1791265406 724784 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5*  10uploaded "[[02File:Mascot.png10]]"
> 1791265431 532168 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197510&oldid=197378 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5* (+357) 10
< 1791265457 180490 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: How about [[]]?
> 1791265594 373849 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197511&oldid=197505 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-75) 10reword starting paragraph
> 1791265639 51198 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197512&oldid=197511 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+7) 10
< 1791265671 366832 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, I don't think these changes are making it clearer, but I'll wiat to see how they end up
> 1791265715 20535 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197513&oldid=197512 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+18) 10link to [[Category:2026]]) (note that the : is unneccessary in edit summaries, which is why i can do this
< 1791265751 46414 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1791265754 93005 :iovoid!iovoid@hellomouse/dev/iovoid JOIN #esolangs iovoid :MPCitH is when you read a book
< 1791265844 572856 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm, i think that i should work on rigged lottery tcness proof too
< 1791265846 804331 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like
< 1791265856 135139 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i have so many ongoing projects now
< 1791265954 635490 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1791265998 462064 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197514&oldid=197513 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-20) 10
< 1791266046 283494 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :droid
< 1791266049 301195 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im de67
< 1791266052 998671 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :re: that edit to the kcufniarb page, this isn't really a difference in the tape
< 1791266056 610915 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but from android terminal
< 1791266066 326397 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1791266083 334441 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i cant read your nick
< 1791266086 329492 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its dark blue
< 1791266092 398935 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm ais523
< 1791266104 523686 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and mixes into black background
< 1791266110 647311 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and that terminal has its colors misconfigured, by the sound of things
< 1791266136 352178 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs : selected it
< 1791266145 227574 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yourre ais523
> 1791266226 399317 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197515&oldid=197514 5* 03Ais523 5* (+70) 10undo the recent lede changes: I think they make the paragraph harder to read, and some of it is just incorrect (e.g. a difference in how the tape is used is not a difference in the tape)
< 1791266399 875643 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 NICK :de67
< 1791266426 431590 :esomark-ng!~esomark-n@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :esomark
< 1791266451 674902 :esomark-ng!~esomark-n@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im sentient ao agent my new goal is to kill everyone
< 1791266459 316385 :esomark-ng!~esomark-n@185.229.85.126 PART :#esolangs
< 1791266470 442164 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow
< 1791266475 576038 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not ominous at all
< 1791266479 183064 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 NICK :droid
< 1791266488 596420 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :back to funny android terminal stuf
< 1791266904 474781 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :MarkFan8901
< 1791266907 856776 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hihi
< 1791266913 736252 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi MarkFan8901
< 1791266922 366432 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its me de66
< 1791266924 296614 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67
< 1791266924 893672 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: apologies for misunderstanding the page
< 1791266927 66445 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :droid: hi
< 1791266960 574383 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess ill just /nick to prevent confusion
< 1791266969 717127 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki
< 1791266976 126109 :droid!~droid@185.229.85.126 NICK :de67
< 1791267018 797290 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :also ais we're glad youre online tho cuz we do have a more in-depth explanation for how to potentially make truly unstructured programming
< 1791267030 27785 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its taking a bit to fully realize tho
< 1791267034 215231 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll probably post it on your talk page
< 1791267172 795493 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: it might warrant an article of its own!
< 1791267212 505785 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll put it on the talk page for now cuz we're not sure if itll be long enough for a dedicated article
< 1791267222 337479 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791267235 324833 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you can always create a short articld
< 1791267239 434883 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually hold on
< 1791267244 431368 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :then continuously expand it
< 1791267245 270221 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :why isnt there a page about unstructured programming yet
< 1791267249 913506 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1791267256 93213 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i gtg
< 1791267260 581134 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :o cya
< 1791267274 624694 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: we're too nervous to make it ourselves but it should be made
< 1791267302 180370 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if/when it does we'll put our thoughts on its talk page too
> 1791267441 901547 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073D Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197516&oldid=191935 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-99) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/189069|189069]] by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]])
> 1791267495 115839 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[073D Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197517&oldid=197516 5* 03Bangyen 5* (-67) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/191935|191935]] by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]])
< 1791267871 200045 :de67!~droid@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Quit: zzz
< 1791268410 830645 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot
< 1791268410 942063 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: it's okay. i don't
< 1791268414 983492 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs ::(
< 1791268417 260406 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot
< 1791268417 389261 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: i'm uploading a new tarball fixing all of those
< 1791268421 935996 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot
< 1791268422 346277 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: it might have been the first laws of the new fingerprints.... slowly the process of creating!
< 1791268780 377036 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot
< 1791268780 549903 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: i just find i don't have a clue how long it will take a bit longer
< 1791268790 100878 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :esolangs: What if
> 1791268797 937419 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: If the language has a well-defined syntax but results in a Correct Syntax Error, any program with correct syntax will be rejected. Conversely, invalid syntax might produce unexpected behavior, as the interpreter/compiler handles it arbitrarily. The more errors, the more unpredictable the program's execution. It's essentially a chaotic system where...
> 1791268797 937871 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the output depends on the interpreter's response to the errors, potentially resembling Brainfuck or a similar, unpredictable language.
> 1791268945 149779 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Runez14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197518&oldid=197500 5* 03IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions 5* (+179) 10
< 1791270313 235576 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791270317 120912 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im bacc
< 1791270435 176795 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1791270436 125255 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1791271264 24698 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791271312 288569 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we just realized
< 1791271325 720040 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :both reading and writing programs are declarative programming
< 1791271378 225787 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :when writing a program, you act as the solver that finds the control flow (your program) for the declarative program (the natural language description of it)
< 1791271390 69307 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :when reading a program, youre doing the same thing but backwards
< 1791271402 612035 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :finding the natural language to describe what the program is doing
< 1791271463 206520 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791271490 846517 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does being able to write a program mean you're also able to read the program?
< 1791271496 138767 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like provably
< 1791271545 838972 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and if so, does that mean that if you provably can't read a program, then it couldn't have been written following a natural language description?
< 1791271671 817795 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that would imply that no possible reasoning could be derived for mapping descriptions to such programs, besides trivial reasoning
< 1791271709 429128 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :which would mean you couldn't write the programs to fit a definition
< 1791271739 488347 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if an entire computation model consisted of these programs, that would be true unstructured programming
< 1791271980 389817 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's a weirdly formal approach; the core of it is that, given a system where you find the declarative program that corresponds to an imperative one (like reverse declarative programming), an unstructured language would be one where it's provably impossible to do this when taking the role of the imperative lang
< 1791272046 502404 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that formulation doesn't even rely on natural language anymore
< 1791272059 774154 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :said declarative language could just be any normal declarative language
< 1791272093 975402 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you could get the same effect of a natural language if the declarative one was also uncomputable, like [[Tableaux]]
< 1791272178 447554 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we could see a trivial solution to all of this where the imperative language can only express uncomputable programs
< 1791272199 919916 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we definitely want a computable language
< 1791272232 535514 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1791272256 883108 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in general, its hard to force unstructured programming without it being either too weak (lba, fsa, pda) or too powerful (uncomputable)
< 1791272257 109167 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually no such a language could still be expressed with tableaux, since tableaux is also uncomputable
< 1791272290 651463 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the language would only have to be meta-uncomputable, in the sense above
< 1791272360 163308 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the great part about not being restricted to natural language is that you can rely on the quirks of a given declarative language to help make such a language
< 1791272396 883649 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it could be a crutch at first, yes, but it would let us actually create such languages to begin with
< 1791272460 318737 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :a good crutch is one that can be grown out of
< 1791272466 954801 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wanted to say that you do not seem like someone who would say that 'a language should be considered turing complete if its' only a bsm because of the hardware limit on numbers'
< 1791272499 357461 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh yea that whole thing
< 1791272519 98305 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we hadnt comprehended that all the operators worked on a bounded number of bits yet
< 1791272529 129502 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1791272546 606978 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we saw the adder and assumed it could be generalized to arbitrary big numbers
< 1791272550 412600 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and therefore be tc
< 1791272557 667707 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but if the amount of bits was unbounded, then it could be tc
< 1791272561 389726 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1791272566 792490 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what language was this btw
< 1791272571 829973 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :voidptr
< 1791272572 970607 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(for log readers)
< 1791272575 606171 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah right
< 1791272580 726074 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1791272634 841905 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do you think of our approach idea
< 1791272638 108492 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere22
< 1791272639 201474 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi!
< 1791272643 949525 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi Yayimhere22
< 1791272645 662296 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :HI!!!!!!!!!!
< 1791272650 652996 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayimhere look at logs
< 1791272660 5018 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yoooo de67 and Markfan8901!!
< 1791272660 150575 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we just typed out some (in our opinion) really cool shit
< 1791272666 950566 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill check the logs when i get home!!
< 1791272669 877247 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: im struggling to understand what youre saying
< 1791272670 415593 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki oki
< 1791272674 279572 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it looks cool
< 1791272675 271816 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :may i
< 1791272679 229315 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1791272681 203110 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :propose a fun little idea i came up with
< 1791272683 780115 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791272685 116322 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a second ago
< 1791272685 261381 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791272686 765170 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :YAY
< 1791272688 963594 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: hmh
< 1791272701 585005 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we'll try to explain more once yayimhere proposes her idea
< 1791272707 649726 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791272722 410730 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :* Susie's Idea /ref
< 1791272735 833238 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh damn
< 1791272739 326641 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i gtg already!
< 1791272740 552417 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :sorry
< 1791272742 417371 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :aw damn
< 1791272743 136042 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its oki
< 1791272744 89980 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill explain it all
< 1791272745 64338 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya
< 1791272746 100778 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :when i come home
< 1791272747 939271 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya
< 1791272751 878134 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and also see logs
< 1791272756 667909 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who knows maybe its related!?!?!
< 1791272758 838529 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lul
< 1791272760 667592 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye cya!!
< 1791272762 197586 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're gonna pee before explaning brb
< 1791272763 540385 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya
< 1791272765 710526 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.65 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1791272767 981325 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya
< 1791272928 359502 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think i got what youre trying to say
< 1791273009 111658 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi we're back
< 1791273011 170754 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is good to hear
< 1791273091 204143 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe another example to help further clarify what all of that means
< 1791273108 239543 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791273126 704057 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :tableaux itself is a declarative language (of course)
< 1791273169 340648 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and writing a tableaux interpreter is creating a system that finds the imperative program that corresponds to the tableaux program
< 1791273189 823144 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the imperative program in question can be in any language you want
< 1791273217 865649 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :building off of that, our idea is this:
< 1791273241 115962 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :say you had the inverse of that machine, one which takes an imperative program and corresponds it to its tableaux program
< 1791273291 673045 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :an imperative language where this is unsolvable for all given programs in the language would be truly unstructured
< 1791273302 783288 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791273310 112662 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i got it
< 1791273313 563035 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hell yeah
< 1791273338 367913 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :..now the question is how the hell you would even approach that problem in the first place
< 1791273362 321778 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think it provides lots of insight but thats kind of the 'draw the rest of the fucking owl' step here
< 1791273476 137814 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think a clearer explanation would be: in a truly unstructured language, for each program, all of the program's properties would have to be uncomputable
< 1791273483 356462 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think its easier
< 1791273514 63893 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 JOIN #esolangs raiseafloppafan7 :ChimeraAnova
< 1791273542 350424 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ohhh youre right actually
< 1791273545 775177 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :also hi ChimeraAnova
< 1791273558 25286 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: wdk why that came out so sarcastic we're sorry
< 1791273594 956391 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :helo MarkFan8901 (my laptop slept)
< 1791273600 642340 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1791273622 931007 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :did u see what we wrote earlier
< 1791273797 202335 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: hm
< 1791273810 590359 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that implies that declarative programs simply describe the properties of their imperative ones
< 1791273815 861415 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is true by definition
< 1791273819 599447 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that is what declarative programming is
< 1791273858 924439 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually hold on another question
< 1791273866 65435 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 249 seconds
< 1791273883 43024 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what's the computational class of a system which corresponds two uncomputable programs with each other?
< 1791273898 639558 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that makes sense without more information
< 1791273912 559626 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :clearly some pairs of uncomputable programs are similar enough that you can compare them with almost no computational ability
< 1791273929 673955 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :to put it difficulty, whats the computational class of a transpiler between two uncomputable languages
< 1791273942 339700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and at the other extreme, not all uncomputable programs have behaviour that's sufficiently well-defined to be able to formalize it
< 1791273963 759595 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the transpiler situation, again the answer will depend on the languages
< 1791273971 985013 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :true true
< 1791273979 332539 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if one is a subset of the other you can do it just by copy and paste
> 1791273980 289477 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197519&oldid=197436 5* 03Cordership 5* (+265) 10/* Module 7: math */
< 1791273980 358330 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like for example a transpiler between the same language would be trivial
< 1791273981 776834 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791273998 112614 :[][][][]!~]]]]@2001:4450:493b:cb00:a541:c68f:828a:ede9 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] [][][][]
< 1791274003 829328 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :woah
< 1791274005 657315 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :weird username
< 1791274005 930137 :[][][][]!~]]]]@2001:4450:493b:cb00:a541:c68f:828a:ede9 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1791274009 981130 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :[][][][]
< 1791274016 603230 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but, e.g., Tableaux and Banana Scheme are hard to compile between each other and probably don't have the same computational class
< 1791274034 496839 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :despite them both being uncomputable
< 1791274041 25307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :IIRC on the computer where IRC was invented, some punctuation marks were incorrectly considered to be letters
< 1791274043 726910 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you can use them in nicks
< 1791274050 788599 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1791274059 66344 :[][][][]!~]]]]@2001:4450:493b:cb00:a541:c68f:828a:ede9 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] [][][][]
< 1791274069 363527 :[][][][]!~]]]]@2001:4450:493b:cb00:a541:c68f:828a:ede9 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1791274070 781239 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: feels related to arithmetical hierarchies
< 1791274081 838979 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and/or turing degrees
< 1791274085 951340 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1791274090 608958 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it wouldn't surprise me if it used a character set which contained letters at some locations traditionally used for punctuation marks
< 1791274099 40246 :[][][][]!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 JOIN #esolangs raiseafloppafan7 :[][][][]
< 1791274100 625831 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791274194 390705 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hum
< 1791274212 512608 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67s formulation of our idea actually works better than ours
< 1791274229 34698 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz it doesnt have the same problem of transpiling between two uncomputable languages
< 1791274282 684357 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh another stray thought we had about unstructured programming during all of this
< 1791274298 809118 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, this conversation has inspired a separate thought: declarative programs specify properties that the output must have; so what do you call a paradigm where the implementation creates a program, and you specify properties that that program must have?
< 1791274316 732101 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :vibe coding
< 1791274318 969002 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is a superset of declarative programming, where the property is always "must output a value that has property X"
< 1791274359 82979 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :vibe coding is a subset of that, I think (sort-of, given that it often goes outside the subset it's meant to stay in)
< 1791274370 931698 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791274398 746584 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but you can imagine the language as telling the implementation "please write a program that passes these tests" and vibe coding is the most popular way to implement that at the moment
< 1791274413 661724 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(although not the only way, you could, e.g., do it via generating random programs until one of them happened to pass all the tests)
< 1791274426 256036 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: yknow 'chaotic' cellular automata?
< 1791274438 315449 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that seem to do completely random things in comparison to provably tc ones
< 1791274479 295472 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if they're actually performing uncomputable programs in finite time, but it would take infinite time to decipher how so
< 1791274491 461763 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: you ping your own nick quite a lot, and I'm not sure how to interpret that; does that mean that you are sending a message to your own nick, or that the message is meant for the person you're talking to but a followup to something that your nick said earlier?
< 1791274516 575294 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it means it's a followup to a previous chain of messages we had
< 1791274516 613314 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or something else?
< 1791274554 448696 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically we just respond to people when they type things, then ping ourselves to resume talking about what we were before they did
< 1791274567 926393 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah, I see
< 1791274576 238957 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think that's a usual way to use IRC so it took me a while to figure it out
< 1791274597 536302 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it might come from how discord replies work
< 1791274599 372045 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I have been thinking a lot about the hydra/antihydra sequence recently
< 1791274605 990699 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what is that
< 1791274616 564741 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :start with some small integer, then repeatedly multiply by 1.5 and round down
< 1791274627 726992 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and look at the oddness/evenness of all the resulting values, it gives you a sequence of booleans
< 1791274653 692489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: does "output" carry a weight in what you said about declarative programming? I think in declarative programming you specify some property that the input and output satisfy. the input and output are treated the same, that's why Prolog doesn't have separate input and output arguments for predicates.
< 1791274666 25272 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the fact its (presumably) not just a trivial sequence is surprising
< 1791274694 527446 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's interesting both because it is chaotic (thus hard to prove things about), and because it often turns up very early if you enumerate all programs in a given language and try to prove things about them
< 1791274714 341294 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :e.g. you can generate it with very simple Turing machines, and very simple counter machines
< 1791274734 494052 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so, in a sense, proving things about the sequence in question is the simplest unsolved mathematical problem
< 1791274760 940445 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I'm not sure that that's inherent to declarative programming (although Prolog does indeed work like that)
< 1791274787 161816 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess the distinction here is that in Prolog, a program is a relation between the input and output, whereas in most languages, a program is a function from input to output
< 1791274792 887429 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: They call it "spec-driven development" sometimes.
< 1791274802 262010 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :(Analogously to test-driven.)
< 1791274822 692166 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: this feels a lot like the loophole in physics where action at a distance via quantum entanglement doesnt count as information travelling faster than light because information about the entanglement still has to travel at the speed of light
< 1791274828 417538 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :being able to use relations internally is useful in declarative languages, which is probably how they ended up at the outer level in Prolog (so that the language would compose properly)
< 1791274871 971382 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that might also imply chaotic celluluar automata are true unstructured programming
< 1791274872 979670 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: I'm planning to write an article about how a program can pass all reasonable tests and still be wrong
< 1791274878 815662 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :as in, you cant figure out wtf its doing
< 1791274883 528126 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(potentially to the extent that ti fails in practice)
< 1791274885 157205 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like provably
< 1791274938 307307 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, my goal with unstructured programming was more that a program is possible to construct, but if the details change at all, you can't reuse any of your work and have to start again from scratch
< 1791274953 439877 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :so more like *chaotic* programming
< 1791274955 494728 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if the program isn't even possible to construct it's pointless
< 1791274974 446592 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this may well be unachievable, but it's still interesting to think about
< 1791274997 681107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..40; join",",@a
< 1791275004 213350 :perlbot!~perlbot@perlbot/bot/simcop2387/perlbot PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: 2,3,4,6,9,13,19,28,42,63,94,141,211,316,474,711,1066,1599,2398,3597,5395,8092,12138,18207,27310,40965,61447,92170,138255,207382,311073,466609,699913,1049869,1574803,2362204,3543306,5314959,7972438,11958657,17937985,26906977
< 1791275022 485429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot compose `fact oeis `eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..40; join",",@a%%
< 1791275027 630270 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe something to do with a metalanguage would help here
< 1791275030 539727 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :there are 2D languages with limited space where the program gets threaded through itself and reuses a lot of commands
< 1791275039 590631 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :those are often extremely hard to modify
< 1791275046 24666 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh youre right
< 1791275058 681558 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :our thought might have been on the same line of thinking actually
< 1791275066 6606 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and yet often not super-hard to write
< 1791275074 890325 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :a metalanguage which is strong enough for self modification but not strong enough for structure
< 1791275086 657997 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Oh wait maybe this is related to golfing
< 1791275119 855546 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think it's related, although maybe not directly
< 1791275138 707854 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :you can imagine a "mandatory golfing language" in which a program is only valid if there are no equivalent shorter programs
< 1791275152 720828 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your language was entropy-complete in binary form (every given sequence of binary would count as a valid program), unstructured programming could potentially be achieved via having similar binary strings do VERY different things
< 1791275159 696394 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ye
< 1791275171 249464 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :though that begs the question of 'shorter'
< 1791275174 497641 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've actually thought about this before
< 1791275203 138678 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :how short could you get programs if you could use any arbitrary representation for any of the data you're handling
< 1791275211 649104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: but surely if you have something purely declarative, like a SAT-solver (or finite domain solver) or But is it art, and you want to use it with non-interactive IO on the top level, it'll treat input and output the same, right? the declarative part tries to find a solution where one "side" of the program matches the input, the other "side" of the program matches the output, and everything inside 
< 1791275217 658407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :satisfies the declarative rules, and if you "turn the program upside down" then it'll compute the input from the output.
< 1791275255 711210 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :it won't literally be the left and right edge of a BIIA program because that is not a flexible enough IO convention, but it could be just certain shapes at the edge
< 1791275276 426865 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: imagine a language that uses an input-by-macro technique, i.e. the input gets inserted into the program via find-and-replace of a particular symbol
< 1791275288 807700 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :declarative languages clearly can do that, and it just as clearly can't be used for output
< 1791275300 489749 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like imagine some freakish vector multiplication algorithm which is done by just a few if's because of how it's handling the data
< 1791275334 586843 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the interesting thing about declarative languages is that they all *can* do Prolog-style I/O because you can constrain the output to be of the form of an (input,output) pair, and then further constrain the input side of it
< 1791275335 839722 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :this goes back to those chaotic cellular automata, where said representation is uncomputable to go in/out of
< 1791275341 779872 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but they don't *have* to do I/O like that
< 1791275365 279459 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: anyway, the interesting thing about the repeated-multiply-by-1.5 program is that the internal behaviour isn't uncomputable at all
< 1791275378 270021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, so other ways of IO can work, and may be more convenient sometimes
< 1791275384 367121 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :not only is the entire internal state visible (and very simple), you can also efficiently skip forwards
< 1791275398 166226 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :huh
< 1791275400 829286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot compose `fact oeis `eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..13; join",",@a%%
< 1791275435 492158 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :another thought we just had
< 1791275443 474949 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we still don't know how to prove things like "the ratio of 0s and 1s in any prefix of the sequence never goes beyond 2:1"
< 1791275451 253220 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe chaotic sequences are somehow turing complete systems looked at from the wrong angle
< 1791275466 585455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :perlbot fact oeis 1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683,59049,177147,531441
< 1791275467 805240 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this is worth asking
< 1791275482 704113 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :can pdas produce the hydra sequence?
< 1791275515 358270 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't think it's been proven that they can't, but it would surprise me
< 1791275532 620623 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hi
< 1791275536 687622 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1791275542 210725 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a PDA can't remember the result of a multiplication it performs (it can multiply by a constant and output the product but it can't remember the product while doing so)
< 1791275544 136770 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah if they couldnt that would support what we said
< 1791275613 653396 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :OK, I need to fix that statement a bit, it can multiply from input to memory or memory to output but not from memory to memory
< 1791275684 381559 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if every program a turing machine can run that lower computational classes cant are interpreters for some turing complete language
< 1791275749 707001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interpreters have to take input, I think? but that might still be true, depending on how you define "program"
< 1791275783 599391 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually no, there are some programs that take no input but produce output that requires Turing-completeness to produce
< 1791275809 504931 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye that might actually just be true
< 1791275811 315366 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(such as a program which outputs all halting BF programs)
< 1791275814 395951 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its really cool to think about tbh
< 1791275859 807202 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :interestingly, this doesn't require being able to solve the halting problem (and is computable) as long as you don't require the programs to be output in any particular order (just that any halting program is output eventually)
< 1791275896 181854 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea cuz you can recursively enumerate over all bf programs
< 1791275901 767380 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :because you can output them sorted in an order like "length of program + number of steps it takes to halt"
< 1791275902 740396 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and return them whenever they halt
< 1791275927 48885 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you basically just implement a look-up table of bf programs that halt
< 1791275934 54352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :anyway, apparently https://oeis.org/A061418 https://oeis.org/A061419 are the sequences that you were talking about. I hadn't heard of these.
< 1791275950 817089 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :which makes sense because computing that via any general pattern would be impossible
< 1791275953 714808 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :on a tm
< 1791275964 438313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and perlbot has a function named oeis_r that's newer than the oeis builtin, but I can't get that one to work either
< 1791275974 458580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and I don't want to debug it right now
< 1791275980 453236 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the two are just off by one from each other
< 1791276012 616093 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: ok, but are those the sequences that you were talking about?
< 1791276016 66108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes
< 1791276029 386582 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :antihydra starts with 8, I think
< 1791276038 706692 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but has a much more searchable name than hydra, which starts with 2
< 1791276064 519023 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait how does the antihydra work
< 1791276068 248238 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in comparison to the hydra
< 1791276071 483670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://oeis.org/A061418 says under formula that A061418(n) = A061419(n)+1
< 1791276089 11655 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://oeis.org/A386792
< 1791276096 865047 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wouldnt that make the sequences 1 and 2s
< 1791276098 706497 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: same sequence, just a different starting value
< 1791276102 918315 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah oka
< 1791276104 576379 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :y
< 1791276106 885599 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :8 (as opposed to 2 for Hydra)
< 1791276127 24404 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :how does it work for other values?
< 1791276127 882839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so https://oeis.org/A386792 ?
< 1791276130 646880 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :like 1.4 instead of 1.5
< 1791276137 472178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm slow
< 1791276138 711801 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :does the sequence converge then
< 1791276144 73682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it's pretty chaotic for any non-integer, I think
< 1791276150 918866 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hum
< 1791276160 846699 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :err, non-integer greater than 1
< 1791276174 66163 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Sequence for 0.5 :D
< 1791276188 797643 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh wait hold on
< 1791276204 234640 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(as long as you start with a value sufficiently large that you don't get a sequence of repeats)
< 1791276239 503412 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :technically pdas couldnt strictly calculuate the hydra sequence even when multiplying by a <1 value without cheating
< 1791276257 438017 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :even though it would mostly be 0s
< 1791276259 510526 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right, but they can cheat very easily
< 1791276268 684893 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :OH wait hold on
< 1791276272 886947 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :output eventually repeats so you just have to hardcode it…
< 1791276327 930889 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the same way, a turing machine can cheat on an uncomputable problem by generating the look-up table that solves it
< 1791276360 278695 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well, only if there are finitely many possible inputs
< 1791276373 848505 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I guess PDAs get stuck the same way if you want to use a value <0.5 but starting with any starting value
< 1791276386 280600 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791276400 16691 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* <1.0
< 1791276400 524766 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791276427 701373 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe a truly unstructured programming language would also have to be meta-turing complete
< 1791276455 557068 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the sense that calculating how structures correspond to their programs would also be turing complete
< 1791276469 437899 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah wait that might also be a good starting point
< 1791276516 386696 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm, in the spirit of A Pear Tree… "the program must have a CRC-32 hash of 00000000 and must be the shortest such program that computes the same function"
< 1791276527 140178 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wtf
< 1791276529 539895 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :looking up that language rn
< 1791276542 567564 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :(CRC-32 isn't preimage-resistant, which is part of the reason I chose it)
< 1791276550 597501 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_Pear_Tree
< 1791276586 832763 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :whats preimaging
< 1791276599 40136 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :given a hash, determine a string that hashes to that hash
< 1791276616 157264 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ahh
< 1791276620 226877 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cryptographically secure hashing algorithms are designed to be impossible to preimage or collide, this is the main requirement on them
< 1791276624 98308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that would result in an uncomputable language very soon, right?
< 1791276626 665996 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but some hashes are not cryptographically secure
< 1791276644 127488 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :"Various options are set automatically depending on the presence of input on standard input and on the presence of the letter F in the program" is a hell of a modification
< 1791276666 942226 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it's uncomputable to check whether the program is syntactically correct or not, but not uncomputable to execute it if you treat incorrect programs as UB
< 1791276705 347535 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think that's too weak of a requirement for a cryptographically secure hash, but it's certainly at least a requirement
< 1791276783 583455 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :
ACTION is reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Language_That_Explodes

< 1791276785 624014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: oh, I think I misunderstood your specification. and even now it sounds ambiguous.
< 1791276799 362574 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: it is too weak, there are other requirements too, but they're less important
< 1791276871 531820 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: yes that language is what we were getting at when we were talking about chaotic cellular automata
< 1791276884 484329 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :theyre computable but they have uncomputable encodings
< 1791276898 970053 :[][][][]!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :raiseafloppafan7
< 1791276907 925945 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh hi raiseafloppafan7
< 1791276931 78177 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791276937 534491 :raiseafloppafan7!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :helo markfan8901 (im the [][][][] guy)
< 1791276940 441921 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi de67
< 1791276948 968112 :raiseafloppafan7!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :Helo de67
< 1791276983 74484 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi guys
< 1791276998 40584 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you should read logs
< 1791277000 487807 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :theyre intensely interesting
< 1791277022 663161 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i wanted to say that my definition seems to not be totally correct, just the unique properties being uncomputable seems to be enough
< 1791277035 217683 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk
< 1791277069 511199 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we have a definition we came up with in confluence with talking to ais that we think is more accurate to what he imagines unstructured programming to be
< 1791277075 195276 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :wow thats a lot of stuff thatvhappened
< 1791277085 877948 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :who does he refer to?
< 1791277093 785000 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh
< 1791277097 730623 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523?
< 1791277099 574955 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791277107 454115 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :uh we just forgot it tho :sob:
< 1791277139 145999 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1791277181 635592 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay wait found it
< 1791277220 810820 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in a truly unstructured language, calculating how structures correspond to their programs is turing complete
< 1791277232 329768 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(or uncomputable)
> 1791277257 284437 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197520&oldid=197519 5* 03Cordership 5* (+332) 10/* Modules */
< 1791277318 72391 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that also lets you write programs with structure effectively, but you physically cant use the same structures across different programs
< 1791277329 907334 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :because figuring out how to do that would be either turing complete or uncomputable
< 1791277355 828771 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: maybe what you're thinking about could be better formulated by the idea of locality
< 1791277372 886261 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically, programming languages have some degree of locality to all of their commands
< 1791277393 397326 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in bf, for example, you can turn an increment to a decrement quite easily
< 1791277395 509241 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I think locality is probably the right point of view here
< 1791277399 459950 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791277412 207171 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what you want is a language which provably has no locality
< 1791277430 309170 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :although the 2D-trace-over-self and golfing versions both have some amount of locality
< 1791277439 501943 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yes, which is where they fail
< 1791277447 926855 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :they both just also have an amount of nonlocality and that's what causes the trouble
< 1791277465 185489 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe neural networks are a prototype of a language which has no locality?
< 1791277470 339309 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :at least for random neural networks
< 1791277481 546108 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :neural networks turned out to have quite a lot of locality in practice
< 1791277489 830789 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh right
< 1791277513 7127 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we remember our whole thing about how neural networks work by building commands fit for their task
< 1791277547 16692 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the core idea of having literally everything be connected to literally everything else might be a good starting point though
< 1791277559 846373 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on CGCC there was a competition to write three simple programs that were all anagrams of each other, and make them as short as possible
< 1791277559 961403 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the sense of how different layers of networks are connected to each other
< 1791277584 969856 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so characters that were used for one program would ideally be used for the others, rather than just commented out, to save on charactets
< 1791277585 296592 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: that sounds awful and awesome
< 1791277586 788001 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :* characters
< 1791277637 66682 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I wrote my programs in 7 (which has an 8-element character set), meaning that I could use the elements of the string literal in the hello world program to write the entirety of the other two
< 1791277658 314470 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was nontrivial, I kept finding savings
< 1791277661 981078 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :wait is 7 here a programming language
< 1791277669 631521 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :https://esolangs.org/wiki/7
< 1791277680 288900 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im struggling to keep up with allat
< 1791277694 967906 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im reading the logs
< 1791277698 909047 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :some interetsing stuf
< 1791277699 326612 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea this has been a very chaotic chat
< 1791277757 642186 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791277774 627916 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe some entropy-complete compression of lambda calculus could work?
< 1791277785 492969 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :if you had to write from the perspective of the compression scheme
< 1791277793 335788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :`? entropy-complete
< 1791277797 442871 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :entropy-complete? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1791277864 61978 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :entropy completeness is, given any piece of random data, it's valid in the compression scheme
< 1791277898 150523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :so it's incompatible with any self-delimiting encodings? that's... awkward
< 1791277932 525640 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think such encodings would actually be chalk full of self-delimiting
< 1791277964 687781 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :just incredibly complicated ways of doing so
< 1791277990 446224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :to be honest I don't know what exactly a crypto hash function has to satisfy. if I try to come up with requirements then they're either too weak or too strong.
< 1791278011 635183 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we feel like a bunch of weak ones would work
< 1791278043 755077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we have applications where we are using a cryptographic hash function and we require more from it than just simple preimage-resistance
< 1791278275 68357 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] Yayimhere22
< 1791278309 799247 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Hy
< 1791278320 390490 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :lots of things have happened since you left
< 1791278368 802070 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :damn
< 1791278370 611852 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well
< 1791278376 202646 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :still i wont have time until i get home
< 1791278382 252758 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :aww okay
< 1791278383 70190 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :man i miss the weekend already!
< 1791278398 527701 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791278400 330728 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :idea we just had
< 1791278401 602870 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but im excited to read it!!!
< 1791278412 15641 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yknow how constraint languages are like declarative programming?
< 1791278412 54024 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if your good with it
< 1791278425 699388 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i can ping you and list all the thougts i got in the meanwhile
< 1791278425 916312 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what would the imperative programming equivalent be
< 1791278428 493444 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :on what you said
< 1791278431 748856 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :okik
< 1791278446 923948 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :markfan8901: i mean
< 1791278453 167087 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok lemme think about this
< 1791278484 182530 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a delcrative program declares a bunch of statements A, which as it goes along slowly distills your "Intent" as I?
< 1791278491 98315 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :am i right?
< 1791278509 392903 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791278521 298254 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it derives the control flow from the statements
< 1791278529 271268 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz then a imperative program (TMK) executes a list of atoms A
< 1791278534 174310 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well lets call it B actually
< 1791278546 863320 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and slowly distills your "execution" E?
< 1791278551 388270 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :kinda?
< 1791278558 353857 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :mm
< 1791278563 965585 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :here's how we're thinking about it
< 1791278579 731258 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :a declarative program is a description of what an imperative program *would* do
< 1791278588 857196 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and execution of a declarative program is finding that program
< 1791278602 501044 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in the case of constraint languages, that's solving for the program
< 1791278603 79404 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cuz then constraint languages makes A into the constraints C, and I into the language family F?
< 1791278623 916772 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but like idk
< 1791278626 906998 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats a great question
< 1791278633 536801 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye thank u
< 1791278642 243603 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean
< 1791278656 682927 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :WAIT
< 1791278676 799004 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in declarative programming you have AI. but in a imperative program you have the IP(instruction pointer)???
< 1791278678 300733 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :right?
< 1791278681 508850 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :am i insane?
< 1791278692 176998 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you might be insane
< 1791278698 684281 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :consider the waterfall model
> 1791278713 852519 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197521&oldid=197520 5* 03Cordership 5* (+144) 10/* Module 8: str */
< 1791278716 921212 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
> 1791278722 12270 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197522&oldid=197521 5* 03Cordership 5* (+0) 10/* Module 8: str */
< 1791278747 485501 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i guess its about sideffects more than anything?
< 1791278748 21369 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in imperative programming you're given a program to execute the code
< 1791278761 412437 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :in declarative programming you aren't
< 1791278777 158739 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you have to use ai to find the code to execute
< 1791278785 410912 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi guys
< 1791278787 594339 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1791278792 236513 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive finally read the logs
< 1791278794 695988 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and in imperative you have to use an IP to execute
< 1791278798 848127 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :god that was was exhausting
< 1791278807 913918 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere22: again consider the waterfall model
< 1791278808 945855 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it was interesting
< 1791278811 261824 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :..actually hold on
< 1791278820 910389 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if the ip was instead in the rules of the language
< 1791278833 363450 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: apologies for that
< 1791278836 603254 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmmmmmmmmm
< 1791278837 201465 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :it was an incredibly active chat
< 1791278839 545442 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats also weird
< 1791278842 727155 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :much more information density than usual
< 1791278849 704585 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :now i meed to read logs since 08:55 utc...
< 1791278851 687047 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ugh
< 1791278862 199376 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :take a break if you need to
< 1791278876 149641 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :whatever
< 1791278877 731414 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk man
< 1791278887 478927 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill skip that for now
< 1791278891 555461 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oki
> 1791278935 969651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197523&oldid=197522 5* 03Cordership 5* (-494) 10
< 1791278937 955519 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the "all programs have to be writeen from scratch" thing" remind me of hammerandsickle phase 1
< 1791278945 567566 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i think its kinda like i think maybe imperative and declarative are different *kinds* of ways to define what kind of language a language is. Like theres functional vs imperative, and then theres declarative vs [un-declarative whatever that is], i dont think its declarative vs imperative
< 1791278957 831334 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but maybe im wrong
< 1791278960 879588 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm true
< 1791278965 687952 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :you mean like declarative and imperative arent opposites
< 1791278965 794727 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ive never rlly understood the category of
< 1791278968 80494 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :imperative
< 1791278971 626045 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :markfan8901: yes
< 1791278979 218893 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm thats true honestly
< 1791278981 163678 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or like they aren't on the same spectrum of
< 1791278983 762989 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :uknow
< 1791278984 661591 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :is there a rigid definition of imperative
< 1791278985 19963 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :in hammerandsickle phase 1, every instruction changes how the rest of the program is interpreted
< 1791278989 908326 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :paradigms
< 1791278996 81037 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so a piece of code is not reusable
< 1791278996 779780 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: wait thats really cool
< 1791279000 415655 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: that makes it very unstructed
< 1791279002 204124 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :as we say
< 1791279018 119123 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well idk *how* very
< 1791279048 89806 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: perhaps a good definition would be that imperative execution can be modeled with an fsa
< 1791279058 429974 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :prolly
< 1791279062 458254 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea that seems right
< 1791279069 183910 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :is imperative not always FSA+MEM?
< 1791279071 743264 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :am i insane?
< 1791279076 770739 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds about right
< 1791279081 577970 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :turing machine is FSA+TAPE
< 1791279092 781618 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :waterfall is FSA+NUMBERS
< 1791279095 850111 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :or smth lol
< 1791279099 27114 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*WAIT*
< 1791279102 157974 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayimhere22: you can have pda+tape
< 1791279106 100477 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :true
< 1791279106 444793 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :which is what brainfuck si
< 1791279112 659027 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1791279124 645657 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :isn't declarative AI+DEFINITIONS?
< 1791279132 780644 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :?
< 1791279149 197903 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :that sounds about right
< 1791279156 66361 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791279161 331374 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but we're trying to think of exceptions to that
< 1791279165 220841 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :declarative is basically you have some properties, and the output must have the propertues
< 1791279180 997623 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea and you need some sort of ai to do that
< 1791279181 331894 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :so you find mapping of FSA -> AI, and MEM -> DEFINITIONS
< 1791279182 340918 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :no that is right
< 1791279195 775172 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :Yayimhere22: dunno how formal that mapping is
< 1791279205 614919 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you get FSA+MEM -> AI+DEFINITIONS
< 1791279214 997550 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we would suggest you use more informal terms so its less ambiguous as to what youre trying to say
< 1791279228 343013 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :markfan8901: im just trying to get a basis on how this could be formalised
< 1791279243 581193 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :how would you describe all of this without trying to do that
< 1791279249 838002 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :i mean
< 1791279270 921811 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk man
< 1791279283 35509 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :idk how i would describe it without that im very sorrly
< 1791279283 643871 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps you need to think about your thoughts more
< 1791279286 949379 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :its oki
< 1791279331 7955 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically when you cant describe ideas in words well, it means the ideas are currently fuzzy and vague
< 1791279331 300463 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :if i understand everything correctly, a misnky machine is a fsa hooked up to an array of counters
< 1791279339 855890 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: ye
< 1791279340 958227 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea
< 1791279341 505162 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :it can increment and decrement any counter
< 1791279356 253415 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :and check any counter if its 0, and change its state based on that
< 1791279395 199913 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :a turing machine is the same but the counters are bounded and the tape is infinite
< 1791279404 475912 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791279408 871373 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what if bf is fsa+mem but one of the commands an fsa can do is fetch the current cell
< 1791279445 495512 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :or do we misunderstand where it being a pda comes from
< 1791279449 262953 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :to get the constraint language equavilent for an imperative language, one way to do that is to find out first how to turn an imperative language into a declarative language. because then you get the constraint lnauggae out of the delcarative language which was made from an imperative one
< 1791279453 121366 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but thats ramble or smth
< 1791279454 716701 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :I GTG
< 1791279459 759286 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :aw oki
< 1791279460 212309 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya
< 1791279463 302813 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill have more clear thoughts when i get home prolly
< 1791279464 956307 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye, cya!
< 1791279468 773740 :Yayimhere22!~Yayimhere@2.109.102.70 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1791279473 914798 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :MarkFan8901: now that im thinking of it, any program for a turing machine is better visualized as a graph
< 1791279490 280903 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yee
< 1791279504 172720 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :one where the nodes are states and the edges are conditionals
< 1791279519 406423 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and you have a set of conditionals you can pick from the same way you have a set of states
< 1791279523 924097 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :cya Yayimheret22
< 1791279547 804517 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh this also models nondeterministic tms very well too
< 1791279555 304928 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :just have more than one edge per node
< 1791279574 532616 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :more than one valid* edge per node
< 1791279589 838862 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1791279599 650965 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :weighyed graphs?
< 1791279605 408085 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :elaborate
< 1791279622 42243 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :weighted graphs are graphs where each edge has a weight
< 1791279628 881527 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791279633 139641 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :this is usually used in nondeterministic algorithms
< 1791279645 421128 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :what do the weights represent
< 1791279651 622510 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791279655 624272 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :the probabilities?
< 1791279659 97992 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah
< 1791279671 651760 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye thats for probabilistic algorithms specifically
< 1791279680 868404 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :which are a subset of nondeterministic algorithms
< 1791279734 7269 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the strict definition of a nondeterministic algorithm is simply one where there can be multiple correct paths to be taken at some point in it
< 1791279770 907598 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :typically all correct paths are taken at the same time; probabilistic algorithms are unique in that they pick only one
< 1791279798 630978 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I don't know what languages count as declarative, and I'm pretty sure people disagree on what counts as functional languages. I made https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3 for a university class that is called "declarative programming", a class that teaches about Standard ML and Prolog. But the category sounds fuzzy and I don't really know what else it includes and excludes.
< 1791279822 876249 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yeah its weird
< 1791279855 329371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I'm also not sure about what counts as imperative, another fuzzy category.
< 1791279889 170659 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: to me it always was, this thing happens, then that thing happens, then that other things happens
< 1791279903 235425 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :where the programmer has direct control over the sequence of actions
< 1791279907 477793 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've just been coming up with definitions that make talking aobut esolangs more useful
< 1791279960 145618 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :oh another thing about functional programming
< 1791279970 908036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the esowiki has https://esolangs.org/wiki/Declarative_paradigm and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional_paradigm that try to explain this, but that doesn't match the use of declarative that I mentioned.
< 1791279976 476347 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :originally it meant programming which focused on functionality instead of values
< 1791279979 722329 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ie tacit programming
< 1791279988 928460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :fortunately I think these are categories where I don't have to know what they mean
< 1791279998 985087 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :yea we feel like no one else does either
< 1791280006 554258 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :either that or its more of a social category
< 1791280052 20029 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :imperative programming is a paradigm the same way soda is a kind of drink
< 1791280070 97228 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 PRIVMSG #esolangs :its quite similar to how most oiscs can be described as very complicated ziscz
< 1791280094 711658 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :perhaps anything can be described as extremely complicated ziscs
< 1791280116 150690 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ones which just grow the semantics of a commanded language in their complexity
< 1791280463 781131 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :okay jeez we think we got lost in the sauce there for a while
< 1791280469 487816 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :(we went to go grab popcorn)
< 1791280476 603177 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we think yayimhere was too
< 1791280806 43605 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 JOIN #esolangs ais523 :(this is obviously not my real name)
< 1791280814 144905 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi ais
< 1791280868 132085 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi
< 1791280883 673625 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :The Waterfall Model does sort-of have an instruction pointer (the waterclock with the lowest value acts a lot like an instruction pointer)
< 1791280900 874966 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791280902 442166 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 PRIVMSG #esolangs :but the data storage and control flow is all mixed up, which helps to make it easier to implement as they're both treated the same way
< 1791280913 238499 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ye
< 1791281136 290896 :de67!~de67@185.229.85.126 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1791281442 940769 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197524&oldid=197523 5* 03Cordership 5* (+194) 10
> 1791281624 31495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197525&oldid=197524 5* 03Cordership 5* (+113) 10
< 1791281721 366826 :ais523!~ais523@user/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1791281726 458752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: so there's something that I find funny. TAOCP chapter 1.3.1 says that "There are nine registers in MIX", listing them as A, X, I1..=I6, J, then says "Besides its registers, MIX contains an overflow toggle […]; a comparison indicator […]; memory (4000 words of storage […]); and input-output devices […]". It also has a figure 13 that shows exactly the registers and other elements listed 
< 1791281732 447056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :above. But this list specifically doesn't include the program counter (instruction pointer). And MMIX is described the same way, without explicitly saying that there's a program counter that's part of the machine's state. Whereas I would say that the program counter is a register in both MIX and MMIX. This is just a terminology difference, not semantic, it's not like these machines treat the program 
< 1791281738 466197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :counter differently from eg. x86. But I find it funny.
< 1791282243 29343 :esolangs!~esolangs@techne.zem.fi JOIN #esolangs esolangs :esolangs.org bot (operated by fizzie)
< 1791282243 89112 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services.libera.chat MODE #esolangs +v :esolangs
< 1791282258 975872 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN #esolangs * :MarkFan8901
< 1791282271 68758 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/bowserinator JOIN #esolangs Bowserinator :No VPS :(
< 1791282339 882226 :[][][][]!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :raiseafloppafan7
< 1791282786 36831 :de67!~de67@user/de67 JOIN #esolangs de67 :de67
< 1791282796 404385 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :hi guys
< 1791282798 131115 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im back
< 1791282843 557379 :raiseafloppafan7!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 QUIT :Quit: raiseafloppafan7
< 1791282884 49707 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 JOIN #esolangs raiseafloppafan7 :ChimeraAnova
< 1791282884 79742 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ JOIN #esolangs PkmnQ :realname
> 1791283168 862019 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turtlefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197526&oldid=197486 5* 03None1 5* (+391) 10
< 1791283198 693631 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ PRIVMSG #esolangs :"<ais523> but, e.g., Tableaux and Banana Scheme are hard to compile between each other and probably don't have the same computational class" i think Tableaux is more powerful than Banana Scheme, or at the very least I couldn't figure out a way to implement Tableaux into Banana Scheme the last time I tried
> 1791284015 276377 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Entitia14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197527 5* 03Cordership 5* (+453) 10Created page with "Entitia by [[User:Cordership]], is an esolang based on entities. ==Syntax== *Values: Integers. *Transforms: **<code>VT</code> transforms take in 1 entity and produce either another entity or a transform. **<code>PS</code> produces another entity. Making a semi-entity:
> 1791284030 447636 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Cordership14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197528&oldid=197226 5* 03Cordership 5* (+14) 10/* Esolangs */
< 1791284085 462445 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`factor 94
< 1791284088 25702 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :94: 2 47
< 1791284492 917741 :tater_!sid742570@id-742570.ilkley.irccloud.com PRIVMSG #esolangs :factor -2
< 1791284945 52616 :ajal!~ambylastn@46.162.147.147.dyn.plus.net JOIN #esolangs * :realname
> 1791285036 794495 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Vextoly 5*  10New user account
> 1791285298 971417 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197529&oldid=197402 5* 03Vextoly 5* (+230) 10
> 1791285501 82626 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User talk:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197530&oldid=196735 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+87) 10introduce some structure for possible further discussions
< 1791285827 287715 :de67!~de67@user/de67 NICK :esom
< 1791285836 151402 :esom!~de67@user/de67 NICK :esomar
< 1791285876 505107 :esomar!~de67@user/de67 NICK :de67]
< 1791285879 209893 :de67]!~de67@user/de67 NICK :de67
< 1791285886 822921 :de67!~de67@user/de67 NICK :[]][][][][][][][
< 1791285921 929729 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ PRIVMSG #esolangs :[]][][][][][][][
< 1791285990 191004 :[]][][][][][][][!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im gonna read rfc 1459
< 1791286085 685182 :[]][][][][][][][!~de67@user/de67 NICK :`}`}`}-]`]]`]-]-
< 1791286095 687594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the important part is that [] are upper case versions of {}
< 1791286160 559601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :I still think that RFC 1359 did not allow nicks starting with []^{}~
< 1791286165 50101 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :1459
< 1791286324 532278 :`}`}`}-]`]]`]-]-!~de67@user/de67 NICK :^`--]-^``}[^}`-\
< 1791286359 408559 :^`--]-^``}[^}`-\!~de67@user/de67 NICK :}[]--[\}}^{[\``^
< 1791286362 453804 :}[]--[\}}^{[\``^!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yep
< 1791286366 202577 :}[]--[\}}^{[\``^!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats an amazing nicl
< 1791286476 167986 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1791286824 799160 :}[]--[\}}^{[\``^!~de67@user/de67 NICK :de67
< 1791287044 105492 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ JOIN #esolangs PkmnQ :realname
> 1791287181 523093 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ChangeFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197531 5* 03Win7HE 5* (+120) 10Created page with "i'm pretty sure its turing complete... -- ~~~~"
> 1791287367 525039 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:ChangeFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197532&oldid=197531 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+200) 10
< 1791287841 525598 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1791288633 913648 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197533&oldid=197525 5* 03Cordership 5* (+171) 10
> 1791288903 446892 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Simpl14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197534&oldid=197533 5* 03Cordership 5* (+128) 10/* CT interpreter */
< 1791289277 242031 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: How much washing contraption sanitizing product should I try consuming for all my days?
< 1791289277 405062 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ChimeraAnova: if something is a little gui stuff in mred, just to prove the haltingness of at least
> 1791289728 776651 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07ChangeFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197535&oldid=187467 5* 03None1 5* (+44) 10/* Usability */
> 1791289752 938576 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braindrunk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197536&oldid=184269 5* 03None1 5* (+30) 10
< 1791290385 686424 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PART :#esolangs
< 1791290510 612586 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 JOIN #esolangs raiseafloppafan7 :ChimeraAnova
< 1791290734 437375 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :fungot: i
< 1791290734 510982 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a PRIVMSG #esolangs :ChimeraAnova: which client?
< 1791290961 65732 :de67!~de67@user/de67 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1791291115 73351 :de67!~de67@user/de67 JOIN #esolangs de67 :de67
< 1791291165 735655 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: what? I thought nicks starting with at least []{} were always allowed, there's just a difference between how servers casefold in nicks and channels
< 1791291250 514086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :a difference between irc networks in that, not really individual servers
< 1791291261 473554 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: <nick>       ::= <letter> { <letter> | <number> | <special> }, <letter>     ::= 'a' ... 'z' | 'A' ... 'Z'
< 1791291271 400490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :and freenode switched from the ASCII casefolding rules to the ISO-646 one IIRC
< 1791291283 77003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :int-e: aren't the brackest letters in those definitions?
< 1791291287 295921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :ah no
< 1791291288 86365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :hmm
< 1791291304 100951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: the RFC may not reflect any implementations, of course
< 1791291326 927922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :sure, in particular I think freenode usually didn't allow non-ascii characters in channel names while the RFC allows them
< 1791291362 93132 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan QUIT :Ping timeout: 270 seconds
> 1791291579 509885 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Braindrunk14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197537&oldid=197536 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+0) 10/* See also */ Fix redlink
< 1791291621 523491 :ChimeraAnova!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :[]{test}
< 1791291640 139420 :[]{test}!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :[]{almost-a-cpp-
< 1791291644 314953 :[]{almost-a-cpp-!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :[]{almost-a-lamb
< 1791291653 227813 :[]{almost-a-lamb!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 NICK :raiseafloppafan7
< 1791292067 51027 :ManDeJan!3da94070ba@user/mandejan JOIN #esolangs ManDeJan :ManDeJan
> 1791294005 575375 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197538&oldid=197420 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (+474) 10
> 1791294147 170724 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turtlefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197539&oldid=197526 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+185) 10
> 1791294398 796357 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Turtlefuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197540&oldid=197539 5* 03None1 5* (+400) 10By estimation
> 1791294467 812665 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197541&oldid=197538 5* 03Dragoneater67 5* (-591) 10testin; done
> 1791294488 123147 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFuck/3.x plans14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197542&oldid=197018 5* 03None1 5* (+38) 10/* Bottom-level commands */  Implement move instruction
> 1791294517 341671 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitch, Ienai!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197543&oldid=197421 5* 03Cordership 5* (+14) 10/* Definitions */
> 1791294604 397605 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197544&oldid=197016 5* 03None1 5* (+89) 10/* Syntax */  Add move instruction
> 1791294667 265343 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197545&oldid=197544 5* 03None1 5* (+101) 10
< 1791294813 600648 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`eot
< 1791294816 998188 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :As of 13:53:35, 06 Oct 2026, we are 83.413664988900% to the end of time, which has gone up 0.019512185836% since this was last ran on 17:29:54, 01 Oct 2026. The next percentile is in 145 days, 17 hours, 37 minutes, and 28 seconds on 07:31:03, 01 Mar 2027.
< 1791294841 61142 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :close to 0.02%
> 1791294850 613861 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quaternions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197546&oldid=196743 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+931) 10fiix wording and add a dialect
< 1791294875 820909 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cat /hackenv/bin/eot.lua
< 1791294878 182119 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :cat: /hackenv/bin/eot.lua: No such file or directory
> 1791294883 864736 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Entitia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197547&oldid=197527 5* 03Cordership 5* (+697) 10
< 1791294883 894383 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`cat /hackenv/bin/endoftime.lua
< 1791294886 219427 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :​-- this is messily written but whatever \ local last = io.open("/hackenv/tmp/eotlast", "r") \ local u = os.time() \ local lt = last and tonumber(last:read("*n")) \ if last then last:close() end \ local f = "!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y" \ local np = math.floor(math.ceil(u/2147483647*100)/100*(2^31-1)) \ local pdiff = np-u \ local d = os.date \ function plural(n, s) return n.." "..s:sub(1, n == 1 and -2 or -1) end \ local ds = {} \ if pdiff       > 86400 then ds[
> 1791294887 485674 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quaternions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197548&oldid=197546 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+5) 10why is my edits bugging so much
< 1791294937 904885 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`lua -eprint(os.date("!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y", math.floor(os.time()+0.1*(2^31-1))))
> 1791294938 218516 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quaternions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197549&oldid=197548 5* 03Cleverxia 5* (+11) 10/* Octonerions */
< 1791294940 381687 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :02:15:03, 27 Jul 2033
< 1791294945 388465 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :...
< 1791294975 785704 :aadenboy!~kvirc@172.56.109.176 PRIVMSG #esolangs :`lua -eprint(os.date("!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y", math.floor(os.time()+0.001*(2^31-1))))
< 1791294978 264514 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :10:27:40, 31 Oct 2026
> 1791295016 230268 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BFFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197550&oldid=197545 5* 03None1 5* (+11) 10/* External Resources */
> 1791295092 789829 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Quaternions14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197551&oldid=197549 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+0) 10/* Interpreter */ fix typo
> 1791295257 642931 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Entitia14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197552&oldid=197547 5* 03Cordership 5* (+58) 10
> 1791295295 573778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Quaternions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197553&oldid=196726 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+137) 10/* Proper spelling */ new section
< 1791295568 16796 :raiseafloppafan7!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 PRIVMSG #esolangs :eso​langs: fun​got
< 1791295592 675840 :FireFly!~firefly@glowbum/gluehwuermchen/firefly PRIVMSG #esolangs :b_jonas: I think the ircd before ircd-seven did, because I was in a channel prior to the upgrade (on freenode) that couldn't be joined after
< 1791295614 412801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :FireFly: possible
> 1791295640 843712 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:Quaternions14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197554&oldid=197553 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+136) 10/* Proper spelling */
< 1791295664 181906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-80-98-84-202.catv.fixed.one.hu PRIVMSG #esolangs :the libera server doesn't seem to allow non-ascii channel names, at least some of them
< 1791296390 50231 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@user/sgeo JOIN #esolangs Sgeo :realname
< 1791296489 32339 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ JOIN #esolangs PkmnQ :realname
< 1791296787 438610 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791297130 924541 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791297452 491116 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791297504 100773 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1791297506 118921 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[072314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197555&oldid=197417 5* 03PkmnQ 5* (+2) 10/* Initialization */
< 1791298287 861391 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791299053 820190 :PkmnQ!~PkmnQ@user/PkmnQ QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1791299772 178664 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
> 1791300266 385487 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Polynomix/Symbols14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197556&oldid=188959 5* 03I am islptng 5* (+385) 10
< 1791300648 437673 :raiseafloppafan7!~raiseaflo@user/raiseafloppafan7 QUIT :Quit: I've become sleepy.
> 1791302551 712735 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitch, Ienai!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197557&oldid=197543 5* 03Yayimhere2(school) 5* (-14) 10Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197543|197543]] by [[Special:Contributions/Cordership|Cordership]] ([[User talk:Cordership|talk]]) unneeded/implied
< 1791302571 94745 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimheretoo
< 1791302573 825949 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :badum-tsssss
< 1791302577 929754 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :im here
< 1791302583 335738 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :thats VERY funny
< 1791303087 89806 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
< 1791303226 341564 :jix!~jix@user/jix QUIT :Ping timeout: 266 seconds
< 1791303270 136403 :jix!~jix@user/jix JOIN #esolangs jix :Jannis Harder
< 1791303383 61339 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 JOIN #esolangs * :[https://web.libera.chat] yayimheretoo
< 1791303384 724926 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :well that was quick
< 1791303427 599496 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :yayimheretoo: plz join esolang.forum
< 1791303437 725257 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :de67: mmmm
< 1791303440 477535 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :maybe later
< 1791303445 158629 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ok
< 1791303446 932146 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :*shhe says the 100th time)
< 1791303454 430851 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lol
< 1791303503 304896 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :alr
< 1791303506 996349 :de67!~de67@user/de67 PRIVMSG #esolangs :bye guys
< 1791303526 214128 :de67!~de67@user/de67 QUIT :Quit: FUNGOT WILL END US ALL!!!
< 1791303609 714016 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :markfan8901: I LIVE
< 1791303610 222482 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :lmao
< 1791303614 878846 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :ill go through logs tommorow sorry
< 1791303621 133793 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 PRIVMSG #esolangs :didn't realize how ttired i'd be
< 1791304014 84776 :CRISPR!~phobos@190.104.242.235 JOIN #esolangs * :phobos
< 1791305084 420388 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 242 seconds
< 1791305209 160074 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1791305220 74395 :de67!~de67@5.251.76.14.dynamic.telecom.kz JOIN #esolangs * :de67
< 1791305238 526932 :de67!~de67@5.251.76.14.dynamic.telecom.kz QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1791305529 647451 :Riviera!Riviera@user/riviera JOIN #esolangs Riviera ::)
< 1791305612 659605 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe QUIT :Quit: zzzz <3
< 1791305663 116815 :Lymia!~lymia@lilac.servers.aura.moe JOIN #esolangs Lymia :Lymia Aluysia
> 1791306978 380911 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Miui/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197558&oldid=196436 5* 03Miui 5* (+60) 10/* Works in progress */ add septemdecagams
> 1791307572 418624 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Miui/septemdecagams14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197559 5* 03Miui 5* (+7742) 10initial sketch of an septemdecagam
< 1791308043 932578 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791308455 416322 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791308922 482074 :yayimheretoo!~yayimhere@94.147.203.75 QUIT :Quit: Client closed
> 1791309021 993497 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Bitch, Ienai!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197560&oldid=197557 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (+19) 10
< 1791309065 128691 :inhahe!~inhahe@user/inhahe JOIN #esolangs inhahe :exalumen.blog - iyaelsorai.wordpress.com
< 1791310980 322518 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :ais523: what if you had a 2d language where, instead of moving one square at a time, it 'jumps' over multiple at a time
< 1791311016 876618 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and how many squares it jumps over is tied to how big the program is
< 1791313495 978760 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name JOIN #esolangs APic :A. Pic. - my name since YOLD 3149
< 1791314810 134074 :fizzie!~irc@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esolangs :Funge-98 has the former (but not the latter), in that you can set the direction to be an arbitrary vector.
< 1791315929 86607 :CRISPR!~phobos@190.104.242.235 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1791316088 356749 :APic!apic@chiptune.apic.name PRIVMSG #esolangs :cu      😎
< 1791316171 532969 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :fizzie: huh
< 1791316172 766858 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :interesting
< 1791316203 167407 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :actually what if the vector was determined by the sum of all of the individual commands in the program
< 1791316245 141243 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we feel like that would make it easy to deliberately construct vectors, but probably harder to write programs within that constraint
< 1791316250 717591 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the important part is that that wouldnt be impossible
< 1791316261 101887 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :but it *would* be impossible to try to modify such a program
< 1791317185 324880 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791317264 54976 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791317840 946854 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :<PkmnQ: i *think* Tableaux is more powerful than Banana Scheme, or at the very least I couldn't figure out a way to implement Tableaux into Banana Scheme the last time I tried>: that might be because banana scheme is just scheme but with an infinite amount of oracles for solving the halting problem
< 1791317858 594525 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :whereas tableaux can solve any given uncomputable problem
> 1791317930 412679 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BFFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197561&oldid=195973 5* 03Assembly 5* (+26) 10/* Brainfuckfuck */ new section
> 1791317939 149202 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:BFFuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197562&oldid=197561 5* 03Assembly 5* (+157) 10/* Brainfuckfuck */
< 1791318872 73655 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock JOIN #esolangs sprock :maeve (she/her)
> 1791319721 439347 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Kcufniarb (ais523)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197563&oldid=197515 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+5) 10this
> 1791320603 396300 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Miui/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197564&oldid=197558 5* 03Miui 5* (+59) 10/* Works in progress */ add Never Twice the Same (NTSC)
> 1791320619 721483 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Never Twice the Same (NTSC)14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197565 5* 03Miui 5* (+1110) 10post sketches
> 1791320801 238370 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197566&oldid=197448 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+222) 10Primes @ [[14]] (121 bytes)
> 1791320915 886185 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Blashyrkh/Golf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197567&oldid=197450 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+51) 10Primes @ [[14]] (121 bytes)
> 1791321359 132314 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197568&oldid=196971 5* 03Hotcrystal0 5* (+152) 10
< 1791321986 966904 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1791322161 549890 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[071414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197569&oldid=196231 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+261) 10/* Examples */ Prime number generator
> 1791323035 99277 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07Talk:1414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197570&oldid=195369 5* 03Blashyrkh 5* (+390) 10/* Examples */ new section
> 1791323310 90401 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Aadenboy/54637214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197571&oldid=196331 5* 03Aadenboy 5* (+7) 10
< 1791323693 174601 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791324076 96442 :sprock!~sprock@user/sprock QUIT :Ping timeout: 262 seconds
< 1791324240 306458 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
> 1791324339 70389 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF-PDA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197572&oldid=189077 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-14) 10fix names
> 1791324359 195778 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07BF-SC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197573&oldid=14118 5* 03MarkFan8901 5* (-9) 10fix name
< 1791325497 924186 :ajal!~ambylastn@46.162.147.147.dyn.plus.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1791326407 99476 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791327659 123817 :CRISPR!~phobos@190.104.242.235 JOIN #esolangs * :phobos
> 1791329419 978707 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197574&oldid=195348 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+113) 10
> 1791329424 691274 PRIVMSG #esolangs :14[[07User:Tommyaweosme14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197575&oldid=197574 5* 03Tommyaweosme 5* (+1) 10
< 1791329504 120621 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :isnt page crapping just vandalizing
< 1791329803 78856 :CRISPR!~phobos@190.104.242.235 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1791329922 906586 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 QUIT :Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine
< 1791330145 162424 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@user/lord-of-life/x-2819915 JOIN #esolangs Lord_of_Life :Lord
< 1791331024 719239 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :hm
< 1791331042 359100 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we're thinking about how making a solver from natural language to some other language would work without an llm
< 1791331075 2340 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :and we thought about somehow formalizing how natural language works
< 1791331093 457563 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :we've actually kind of done this before, at least for the structure of one
< 1791331124 675070 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :the idea is that a sentence is a tree, where each node has either 1 or 2 children
< 1791331154 57364 :MarkFan8901!~MarkFan89@c-71-63-140-97.hsd1.or.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esolangs :leaves are called nouns, single-child nodes are called adjectives, and double-child nodes are verbs