00:00:13 [[Solution 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197471&oldid=197469 * MarkFan8901 * (+118) 00:04:18 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197472&oldid=197470 * MarkFan8901 * (-1912) 00:21:06 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 00:22:09 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:22:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 01:07:53 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197473&oldid=197472 * MarkFan8901 * (-13) 01:07:57 [[Solution 1/Proof of solution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197474 * MarkFan8901 * (+3442) Created page with "This is the proof that Solution 1 fits the constraints of Bitch, Ienai!. It is suggested that you refresh your mind on its' constraints first before reading. == Definitions == * Values are lambdas. * Transforms are also lambdas. * Semi-entities 01:08:00 [[Solution 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197475&oldid=197471 * MarkFan8901 * (-3367) 01:11:13 [[Solution 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197476&oldid=197475 * MarkFan8901 * (-117) 01:11:57 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197477&oldid=197473 * MarkFan8901 * (-226) 01:12:35 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197478&oldid=197477 * MarkFan8901 * (-30) 01:14:30 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197479&oldid=197478 * MarkFan8901 * (+147) 01:14:52 [[Solution 1/Extracted]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197480&oldid=197479 * MarkFan8901 * (+3) 01:16:52 [[Solution 1/Proof of solution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197481&oldid=197474 * MarkFan8901 * (+10) fix code + reword 01:17:27 -!- ajal has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement). 01:18:26 [[Solution 1/Proof of solution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197482&oldid=197481 * MarkFan8901 * (-16) 01:24:29 [[Solution 1/Proof of solution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197483&oldid=197482 * MarkFan8901 * (+2) 01:24:32 running on a faster system led to 45.38s and by changing the recursion to iteration it got to 45.08s 01:25:18 wait what are you implementing again 01:25:35 Countable in C 01:25:42 o right 01:25:46 looking at countable 01:26:34 https://aadenboy.github.io/miscellaneous/countable.c <- there's probably ways to optimize this but this is my first Dynamic Array™ so I'm not going crazy 01:27:03 solution to dynamic arrays: 01:27:11 1. allocate all memory on your system 01:27:15 2. now you cant read out of bounds 01:27:25 True... 01:28:16 my reallocation did try doing exactly that several times since I hadn't realized I needed to move pointers after reallocating 01:28:33 funny 01:28:56 yea the details of memory management are especially subtle 01:30:40 it's a fun puzzle 01:34:05 [[Talk:Nandcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197484&oldid=197455 * Dragoneater67 * (+310) dont delete others' comments 01:51:16 [[User:Cleverxia/golfing results]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197485&oldid=196731 * Cleverxia * (+79) add primes and wow, blashyrkh is an excellent golfer 01:57:26 [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197486&oldid=192055 * Cleverxia * (+245) 01:57:44 uh. in aadenboy's code, defining `and`, `or`, `xor`, `pow` as macros makes me a bit worried, even though they realistically probably won't cause problems, they still seem like a bad idea 01:58:23 the first three are keywords, the last is a C standard library function name, they could be mentioned in other macros that you expand in your code 02:01:53 is the "bn.c" include that this code mentions available somewhere? 02:13:42 [[Talk:Nandcode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197487&oldid=197484 * MarkFan8901 * (+538) 02:14:33 [[Talk:Nandcode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197488&oldid=197487 * MarkFan8901 * (+7) 02:16:35 [[User talk:Aadenboy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197489&oldid=197457 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+4) /* MolKnuFnuKowSepMolEnuNnuEnuKowSepMolEnuNnuLnuKowSepMolEnuNnuLnuKowSepMolEnuEnuEnuKow! ("Hello!" in Mouthshitter) */ 02:24:27 [[Talk:Runez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197490&oldid=197439 * Dragoneater67 * (+232) 02:24:37 [[Talk:Runez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197491&oldid=197490 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) 02:31:34 -!- MarkFan8901 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 02:46:31 -!- de67 has joined. 02:49:06 b_jonas: https://github.com/kokke/tiny-bignum-c 02:51:11 aadenboy: why dont you just use bounded number for countable? 02:51:41 then it wouldn't be tc 02:51:55 or do you mean implementation-wise? 02:52:52 implementation-wise 02:53:16 I could, but the lib is shiny and attractive 02:53:30 aadenboy: keep it simple, stupid! 02:53:36 No!! 02:53:36 hm 02:53:40 aadenboy: thank you 02:53:51 but the library really is quite simple for what its doing 02:54:19 tho id still avoid any usage of bugnums cuz int is all i need 02:54:22 I had written something dealing with big numbers but only for converting between decimal and base 128, so not all of the functions such as addition, multiplication, etc. The proper big integer implementation is useful for more purposes than that, although it only has unsigned and not base 128 but base 128 is probably not useful other than the specific case I did but signed is useful in some programs. 02:54:25 but you do you 02:55:38 However, that library that you mentioned, also can only use a fixed size instead of dynamic, but static and dynamic can be useful for different purposes. 02:56:39 (They also don't seem to have modular inversion and modular exponentiation) 02:56:54 aadenboy: does that library have no ordered comparisons? 02:57:32 I'm not familiar with those 02:58:04 aadenboy: as in a function that tells you whether one of those bignums is less than another one 02:58:26 cmp()? 02:59:05 They have bignum_cmp function, so does do comparison, it look like 02:59:13 ah, I'm just blind 03:00:24 thank you 03:21:38 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:22:21 -!- de67 has joined. 04:17:34 goodnightish 04:19:08 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Kcufniarb]] to [[Kcufniarb (Buckets)]]: pseudo-duplicated language name (the page about this language is called kcufniarb because the real name isn't legal as a page title, whereas I created a language actually called kcufniarb) 04:20:25 [[Kcufniarb (Buckets)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197494&oldid=197492 * Ais523 * (+71) disambig hatnote 04:22:29 -!- somefan has quit (Quit: seeya later). 04:23:08 [[Kcufniarb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197495&oldid=197493 * Ais523 * (+348) create disambig page 04:24:05 [[Kcufniarb]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197496&oldid=197495 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+21) declarative paradigm redlink? 04:26:22 gn aadenboy 04:56:29 [[Talk:Runez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197497&oldid=197491 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+210) 04:58:27 [[Talk:Runez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197498&oldid=197497 * Dragoneater67 * (+204) /* General */ 05:01:12 [[Talk:Runez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197499&oldid=197498 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+186) 05:02:45 [[Talk:Runez]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197500&oldid=197499 * Dragoneater67 * (+209) /* General */ 05:06:14 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197501 * Ais523 * (+7593) new language (if the wiki is going to be filled with BF derivatives I may as well try to make an interesting one) 05:06:45 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds). 05:06:56 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:07:02 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197502&oldid=197255 * Ais523 * (+35) /* K */ +[[kcufniarb (ais523)]] 05:07:22 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197503&oldid=197501 * Dragoneater67 * (+21) fix redlink 05:07:37 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197504&oldid=182056 * Ais523 * (+34) +[[kcufniarb (ais523)]] 05:08:33 no one is safe from slopocalypse!!! 05:08:40 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197505&oldid=197503 * Ais523 * (-21) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197503|197503]] by [[Special:Contributions/Dragoneater67|Dragoneater67]] ([[User talk:Dragoneater67|talk]]) a redlink is an indication that a page should exist but doesn't, in this situation the correct way to fix it is to create the page ( 05:09:08 [[Declarative]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197506 * Ais523 * (+34) redirect to the page on this subject 05:09:43 de67: Not even ? 05:09:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:10:00 ChimeraAnova: note even ? 05:10:08 s/note/not/ 05:10:12 the real question is, is kcufniarb different enough from brainfuck to go onto the semi-serious languages list 05:10:23 I think it's a borderline example (and am not adding it myself) 05:11:04 hm 05:11:07 (also de67, please don't fix redlinks by editing the link unless they are typoed or the like – the correct fix is to create the page, as a redirect if it would be a duplicate) 05:11:14 ok 05:11:47 i think that reversiblr kcufniarb could be interestinf 05:11:50 people don't link to nonexistent pages nearly often enough, but it is one of the ways wikis grow, and creating pages under names that people use also helps the search feature find the pages properly 05:11:54 and maybe easier to implement 05:12:16 reversible kcufniarb isn't meaningfully different from reversible brainfuck, you don't get any nondeterministic choices 05:12:28 can just deterministically run the program backwards from the all-zeroes ending state 05:13:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:13:22 -!- sprock has joined. 05:13:59 oh 05:19:14 ill try to implement kcufniarb 05:19:48 I was considering implementing it myself, but I'm ill at the moment and couldn't scrape together the energy 05:19:58 (and in general I hate implementing declarative languages, they're fun to program in but not fun to implement) 05:21:01 ais523: my impl is gonna be naive, its just gonna iterate over every initial finite tape state 05:21:05 except for Prolog without extensions, I had fun implementing that (when I was much younger) but it's only marginally declarative because it has a defined search order 05:21:26 could work (although it might be too slow to run any nontrivial programs) 05:21:31 hm 05:21:34 I wonder whether my example program is correct 05:21:46 what should be done about programs that may or may not halt? 05:21:56 like this one: +[+] 05:22:00 oh wait 05:22:09 they halt or not based on the initial tape 05:22:11 this one +[>+] 05:22:24 that also halts or not based on the initial tape 05:22:27 oh wait 05:22:29 hm 05:22:33 the trick is, if the program doesn't halt, you have no way to tell 05:22:37 [+]+[] 05:22:41 so you have to keep running it while you are searching for new tapes 05:22:49 [+]+[] never halts I think 05:22:49 ok 05:23:27 implementing declarative languages almost always requires running multiple different programs in parallel and stopping when any of them halt 05:23:39 so it has to be concurrent 05:23:49 thats amazing 05:23:55 i love race condition 05:24:17 yes (although normally you don't use actual OS threads, you just cycle through the programs) 05:24:17 eh, pthreads will do 05:25:00 ill start writing it once i get home 05:25:31 I am not convinced that you'll find the correct starting tape before you hit the OS limit on the number of threads in a single process (or the number of processes+threads on the system as a whole) 05:25:48 but it might still be interesting to try 05:26:07 if that doesnt work, ill use round robin scheduling 05:26:21 round robin scheduling would never betray me 05:26:23 round robin is my usual approach for this sort of thing 05:26:36 but ill try pthreads first 05:27:53 ais523: sometimes writing an implementation for an esoteric language can make sense even when the language is so inefficient that you can't run any program in the implementation, just to make the description of the language less ambiguous because the implementation source code specifies the rules. 05:28:01 b_jonas: yes 05:28:50 b_jonas: but what if the impl is buggy and no one notices? 05:28:51 but of course you have to be careful with which parts of the rules are mandatory and which ones are unspecified and just happen to work in some way in the implementation 05:29:46 b_jonas: I've been wondering whether it's valid to use a 64-bit integer to implement a bignum, on the basis that the implementation isn't optimized enough to use bignums outside the 64-bit integer range anyway (i.e. you couldn't run it for long enough to get outside the range) 05:30:21 computers are bounded anyway, so who cares? 05:30:24 this comes up in particular with Three Star Programmer, where bignums are relied on for TCness but you will run out of memory before the bignums get outside the 64-bit integer range 05:31:00 de67: I think it depends on whether the program is meant to be an implementation for practical use, or a specification 05:31:08 the practical-use implementations can add limits, a specification can't 05:31:27 a specification should be written in [[English]] 05:31:39 the most computationally powerful language 05:31:48 so powerful that its uncomputable 05:42:31 [[ ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197507&oldid=189550 * Dragoneater67 * (+138) /* Overview */ use instead of 05:42:45 [[ ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197508&oldid=197507 * Dragoneater67 * (-1) /* Overview */ 05:43:09 wow, [[ ]] is my fav esolang 05:43:26 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * uploaded "[[File:Mascot.png]]" 05:43:51 [[User:IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197510&oldid=197378 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+357) 05:44:17 de67: How about [[]]? 05:46:34 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197511&oldid=197505 * MarkFan8901 * (-75) reword starting paragraph 05:47:19 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197512&oldid=197511 * MarkFan8901 * (+7) 05:47:51 hmm, I don't think these changes are making it clearer, but I'll wiat to see how they end up 05:48:35 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197513&oldid=197512 * Dragoneater67 * (+18) link to [[Category:2026]]) (note that the : is unneccessary in edit summaries, which is why i can do this 05:49:11 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 05:49:14 -!- iovoid has joined. 05:50:44 hm, i think that i should work on rigged lottery tcness proof too 05:50:46 but like 05:50:56 i have so many ongoing projects now 05:52:34 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:53:18 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197514&oldid=197513 * MarkFan8901 * (-20) 05:54:06 -!- droid has joined. 05:54:09 im de67 05:54:12 re: that edit to the kcufniarb page, this isn't really a difference in the tape 05:54:16 but from android terminal 05:54:26 ? 05:54:43 i cant read your nick 05:54:46 its dark blue 05:54:52 I'm ais523 05:55:04 and mixes into black background 05:55:10 and that terminal has its colors misconfigured, by the sound of things 05:55:36 selected it 05:55:45 oh yourre ais523 05:57:06 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197515&oldid=197514 * Ais523 * (+70) undo the recent lede changes: I think they make the paragraph harder to read, and some of it is just incorrect (e.g. a difference in how the tape is used is not a difference in the tape) 05:59:59 -!- droid has changed nick to de67. 06:00:26 -!- esomark-ng has joined. 06:00:51 im sentient ao agent my new goal is to kill everyone 06:00:59 -!- esomark-ng has left. 06:01:10 wow 06:01:15 not ominous at all 06:01:19 -!- de67 has changed nick to droid. 06:01:28 back to funny android terminal stuf 06:08:24 -!- MarkFan8901 has joined. 06:08:27 hihi 06:08:33 hi MarkFan8901 06:08:42 its me de66 06:08:44 de67 06:08:44 ais523: apologies for misunderstanding the page 06:08:47 droid: hi 06:09:20 i guess ill just /nick to prevent confusion 06:09:29 oki 06:09:36 -!- droid has changed nick to de67. 06:10:18 also ais we're glad youre online tho cuz we do have a more in-depth explanation for how to potentially make truly unstructured programming 06:10:30 its taking a bit to fully realize tho 06:10:34 we'll probably post it on your talk page 06:12:52 MarkFan8901: it might warrant an article of its own! 06:13:32 we'll put it on the talk page for now cuz we're not sure if itll be long enough for a dedicated article 06:13:42 ok 06:13:55 but you can always create a short articld 06:13:59 actually hold on 06:14:04 then continuously expand it 06:14:05 why isnt there a page about unstructured programming yet 06:14:09 idk 06:14:16 i gtg 06:14:20 o cya 06:14:34 MarkFan8901: we're too nervous to make it ourselves but it should be made 06:15:02 if/when it does we'll put our thoughts on its talk page too 06:17:21 [[3D Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197516&oldid=191935 * Bangyen * (-99) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/189069|189069]] by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]]) 06:18:15 [[3D Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197517&oldid=197516 * Bangyen * (-67) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/191935|191935]] by [[Special:Contributions/Bangyen|Bangyen]] ([[User talk:Bangyen|talk]]) 06:24:31 -!- de67 has quit (Quit: zzz). 06:33:30 fungot 06:33:30 MarkFan8901: it's okay. i don't 06:33:34 :( 06:33:37 fungot 06:33:37 MarkFan8901: i'm uploading a new tarball fixing all of those 06:33:41 fungot 06:33:42 MarkFan8901: it might have been the first laws of the new fingerprints.... slowly the process of creating! 06:39:40 fungot 06:39:40 MarkFan8901: i just find i don't have a clue how long it will take a bit longer 06:39:50 esolangs: What if 06:39:57 MarkFan8901: If the language has a well-defined syntax but results in a Correct Syntax Error, any program with correct syntax will be rejected. Conversely, invalid syntax might produce unexpected behavior, as the interpreter/compiler handles it arbitrarily. The more errors, the more unpredictable the program's execution. It's essentially a chaotic system where... 06:39:57 the output depends on the interpreter's response to the errors, potentially resembling Brainfuck or a similar, unpredictable language. 06:42:25 [[Talk:Runez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197518&oldid=197500 * IMakeTerribleEsolangDecisions * (+179) 07:05:13 -!- de67 has joined. 07:05:17 im bacc 07:07:15 -!- de67 has quit (Client Quit). 07:07:16 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:21:04 -!- de67 has joined. 07:21:52 we just realized 07:22:05 both reading and writing programs are declarative programming 07:22:58 when writing a program, you act as the solver that finds the control flow (your program) for the declarative program (the natural language description of it) 07:23:10 when reading a program, youre doing the same thing but backwards 07:23:22 finding the natural language to describe what the program is doing 07:24:23 hm 07:24:50 does being able to write a program mean you're also able to read the program? 07:24:56 like provably 07:25:45 and if so, does that mean that if you provably can't read a program, then it couldn't have been written following a natural language description? 07:27:51 that would imply that no possible reasoning could be derived for mapping descriptions to such programs, besides trivial reasoning 07:28:29 which would mean you couldn't write the programs to fit a definition 07:28:59 if an entire computation model consisted of these programs, that would be true unstructured programming 07:33:00 it's a weirdly formal approach; the core of it is that, given a system where you find the declarative program that corresponds to an imperative one (like reverse declarative programming), an unstructured language would be one where it's provably impossible to do this when taking the role of the imperative lang 07:34:06 that formulation doesn't even rely on natural language anymore 07:34:19 said declarative language could just be any normal declarative language 07:34:53 and you could get the same effect of a natural language if the declarative one was also uncomputable, like [[Tableaux]] 07:36:18 we could see a trivial solution to all of this where the imperative language can only express uncomputable programs 07:36:39 but we definitely want a computable language 07:37:12 yea 07:37:36 in general, its hard to force unstructured programming without it being either too weak (lba, fsa, pda) or too powerful (uncomputable) 07:37:37 actually no such a language could still be expressed with tableaux, since tableaux is also uncomputable 07:38:10 the language would only have to be meta-uncomputable, in the sense above 07:39:20 the great part about not being restricted to natural language is that you can rely on the quirks of a given declarative language to help make such a language 07:39:56 it could be a crutch at first, yes, but it would let us actually create such languages to begin with 07:41:00 a good crutch is one that can be grown out of 07:41:06 i wanted to say that you do not seem like someone who would say that 'a language should be considered turing complete if its' only a bsm because of the hardware limit on numbers' 07:41:39 oh yea that whole thing 07:41:59 we hadnt comprehended that all the operators worked on a bounded number of bits yet 07:42:09 damn 07:42:26 we saw the adder and assumed it could be generalized to arbitrary big numbers 07:42:30 and therefore be tc 07:42:37 but if the amount of bits was unbounded, then it could be tc 07:42:41 yes 07:42:46 what language was this btw 07:42:51 voidptr 07:42:52 (for log readers) 07:42:55 ah right 07:43:00 -!- ChimeraAnova has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:43:54 what do you think of our approach idea 07:43:58 -!- Yayimhere22 has joined. 07:43:59 hi! 07:44:03 hi Yayimhere22 07:44:05 HI!!!!!!!!!! 07:44:10 yayimhere look at logs 07:44:20 yoooo de67 and Markfan8901!! 07:44:20 we just typed out some (in our opinion) really cool shit 07:44:26 ill check the logs when i get home!! 07:44:29 MarkFan8901: im struggling to understand what youre saying 07:44:30 oki oki 07:44:34 but it looks cool 07:44:35 may i 07:44:39 ? 07:44:41 propose a fun little idea i came up with 07:44:43 ye 07:44:45 a second ago 07:44:45 ye 07:44:46 YAY 07:44:48 de67: hmh 07:45:01 we'll try to explain more once yayimhere proposes her idea 07:45:07 ok 07:45:22 * Susie's Idea /ref 07:45:35 oh damn 07:45:39 i gtg already! 07:45:40 sorry 07:45:42 aw damn 07:45:43 its oki 07:45:44 ill explain it all 07:45:45 cya 07:45:46 when i come home 07:45:47 cya 07:45:51 and also see logs 07:45:56 who knows maybe its related!?!?! 07:45:58 lul 07:46:00 bye cya!! 07:46:02 we're gonna pee before explaning brb 07:46:03 cya 07:46:05 -!- Yayimhere22 has quit (Client Quit). 07:46:07 cya 07:48:48 i think i got what youre trying to say 07:50:09 hi we're back 07:50:11 that is good to hear 07:51:31 maybe another example to help further clarify what all of that means 07:51:48 ok 07:52:06 tableaux itself is a declarative language (of course) 07:52:49 and writing a tableaux interpreter is creating a system that finds the imperative program that corresponds to the tableaux program 07:53:09 where the imperative program in question can be in any language you want 07:53:37 building off of that, our idea is this: 07:54:01 say you had the inverse of that machine, one which takes an imperative program and corresponds it to its tableaux program 07:54:51 an imperative language where this is unsolvable for all given programs in the language would be truly unstructured 07:55:02 ok 07:55:10 i got it 07:55:13 hell yeah 07:55:38 ..now the question is how the hell you would even approach that problem in the first place 07:56:02 we think it provides lots of insight but thats kind of the 'draw the rest of the fucking owl' step here 07:57:56 i think a clearer explanation would be: in a truly unstructured language, for each program, all of the program's properties would have to be uncomputable 07:58:03 i think its easier 07:58:34 -!- ChimeraAnova has joined. 07:59:02 ohhh youre right actually 07:59:05 also hi ChimeraAnova 07:59:18 MarkFan8901: wdk why that came out so sarcastic we're sorry 07:59:54 helo MarkFan8901 (my laptop slept) 08:00:00 ah 08:00:22 did u see what we wrote earlier 08:03:17 de67: hm 08:03:30 that implies that declarative programs simply describe the properties of their imperative ones 08:03:35 which is true by definition 08:03:39 that is what declarative programming is 08:04:18 actually hold on another question 08:04:26 -!- ChimeraAnova has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 08:04:43 what's the computational class of a system which corresponds two uncomputable programs with each other? 08:04:58 I don't think that makes sense without more information 08:05:12 clearly some pairs of uncomputable programs are similar enough that you can compare them with almost no computational ability 08:05:29 to put it difficulty, whats the computational class of a transpiler between two uncomputable languages 08:05:42 and at the other extreme, not all uncomputable programs have behaviour that's sufficiently well-defined to be able to formalize it 08:06:03 in the transpiler situation, again the answer will depend on the languages 08:06:11 true true 08:06:19 if one is a subset of the other you can do it just by copy and paste 08:06:20 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197519&oldid=197436 * Cordership * (+265) /* Module 7: math */ 08:06:20 like for example a transpiler between the same language would be trivial 08:06:21 ye 08:06:38 -!- [][][][] has joined. 08:06:43 woah 08:06:45 weird username 08:06:45 -!- [][][][] has quit (Client Quit). 08:06:49 [][][][] 08:06:56 but, e.g., Tableaux and Banana Scheme are hard to compile between each other and probably don't have the same computational class 08:07:14 despite them both being uncomputable 08:07:21 IIRC on the computer where IRC was invented, some punctuation marks were incorrectly considered to be letters 08:07:23 so you can use them in nicks 08:07:30 huh 08:07:39 -!- [][][][] has joined. 08:07:49 -!- [][][][] has quit (Client Quit). 08:07:50 MarkFan8901: feels related to arithmetical hierarchies 08:08:01 and/or turing degrees 08:08:05 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:10 it wouldn't surprise me if it used a character set which contained letters at some locations traditionally used for punctuation marks 08:08:19 -!- [][][][] has joined. 08:08:20 ye 08:09:54 hum 08:10:12 de67s formulation of our idea actually works better than ours 08:10:29 cuz it doesnt have the same problem of transpiling between two uncomputable languages 08:11:22 oh another stray thought we had about unstructured programming during all of this 08:11:38 hmm, this conversation has inspired a separate thought: declarative programs specify properties that the output must have; so what do you call a paradigm where the implementation creates a program, and you specify properties that that program must have? 08:11:56 vibe coding 08:11:58 this is a superset of declarative programming, where the property is always "must output a value that has property X" 08:12:39 vibe coding is a subset of that, I think (sort-of, given that it often goes outside the subset it's meant to stay in) 08:12:50 ye 08:13:18 but you can imagine the language as telling the implementation "please write a program that passes these tests" and vibe coding is the most popular way to implement that at the moment 08:13:33 (although not the only way, you could, e.g., do it via generating random programs until one of them happened to pass all the tests) 08:13:46 MarkFan8901: yknow 'chaotic' cellular automata? 08:13:58 that seem to do completely random things in comparison to provably tc ones 08:14:39 what if they're actually performing uncomputable programs in finite time, but it would take infinite time to decipher how so 08:14:51 MarkFan8901: you ping your own nick quite a lot, and I'm not sure how to interpret that; does that mean that you are sending a message to your own nick, or that the message is meant for the person you're talking to but a followup to something that your nick said earlier? 08:15:16 it means it's a followup to a previous chain of messages we had 08:15:16 or something else? 08:15:54 typically we just respond to people when they type things, then ping ourselves to resume talking about what we were before they did 08:16:07 ah, I see 08:16:16 I don't think that's a usual way to use IRC so it took me a while to figure it out 08:16:37 it might come from how discord replies work 08:16:39 I have been thinking a lot about the hydra/antihydra sequence recently 08:16:45 what is that 08:16:56 start with some small integer, then repeatedly multiply by 1.5 and round down 08:17:07 and look at the oddness/evenness of all the resulting values, it gives you a sequence of booleans 08:17:33 ais523: does "output" carry a weight in what you said about declarative programming? I think in declarative programming you specify some property that the input and output satisfy. the input and output are treated the same, that's why Prolog doesn't have separate input and output arguments for predicates. 08:17:46 the fact its (presumably) not just a trivial sequence is surprising 08:18:14 it's interesting both because it is chaotic (thus hard to prove things about), and because it often turns up very early if you enumerate all programs in a given language and try to prove things about them 08:18:34 e.g. you can generate it with very simple Turing machines, and very simple counter machines 08:18:54 so, in a sense, proving things about the sequence in question is the simplest unsolved mathematical problem 08:19:20 b_jonas: I'm not sure that that's inherent to declarative programming (although Prolog does indeed work like that) 08:19:47 I guess the distinction here is that in Prolog, a program is a relation between the input and output, whereas in most languages, a program is a function from input to output 08:19:52 ais523: They call it "spec-driven development" sometimes. 08:20:02 (Analogously to test-driven.) 08:20:22 MarkFan8901: this feels a lot like the loophole in physics where action at a distance via quantum entanglement doesnt count as information travelling faster than light because information about the entanglement still has to travel at the speed of light 08:20:28 being able to use relations internally is useful in declarative languages, which is probably how they ended up at the outer level in Prolog (so that the language would compose properly) 08:21:11 that might also imply chaotic celluluar automata are true unstructured programming 08:21:12 fizzie: I'm planning to write an article about how a program can pass all reasonable tests and still be wrong 08:21:18 as in, you cant figure out wtf its doing 08:21:23 (potentially to the extent that ti fails in practice) 08:21:25 like provably 08:22:18 well, my goal with unstructured programming was more that a program is possible to construct, but if the details change at all, you can't reuse any of your work and have to start again from scratch 08:22:33 so more like *chaotic* programming 08:22:35 if the program isn't even possible to construct it's pointless 08:22:54 this may well be unachievable, but it's still interesting to think about 08:23:17 perlbot eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..40; join",",@a 08:23:24 b_jonas: 2,3,4,6,9,13,19,28,42,63,94,141,211,316,474,711,1066,1599,2398,3597,5395,8092,12138,18207,27310,40965,61447,92170,138255,207382,311073,466609,699913,1049869,1574803,2362204,3543306,5314959,7972438,11958657,17937985,26906977 08:23:42 perlbot compose `fact oeis `eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..40; join",",@a%% 08:23:47 maybe something to do with a metalanguage would help here 08:23:50 there are 2D languages with limited space where the program gets threaded through itself and reuses a lot of commands 08:23:59 those are often extremely hard to modify 08:24:06 oh youre right 08:24:18 our thought might have been on the same line of thinking actually 08:24:26 and yet often not super-hard to write 08:24:34 a metalanguage which is strong enough for self modification but not strong enough for structure 08:24:46 Oh wait maybe this is related to golfing 08:25:19 I think it's related, although maybe not directly 08:25:38 you can imagine a "mandatory golfing language" in which a program is only valid if there are no equivalent shorter programs 08:25:52 if your language was entropy-complete in binary form (every given sequence of binary would count as a valid program), unstructured programming could potentially be achieved via having similar binary strings do VERY different things 08:25:59 ais523: ye 08:26:11 though that begs the question of 'shorter' 08:26:14 we've actually thought about this before 08:26:43 how short could you get programs if you could use any arbitrary representation for any of the data you're handling 08:26:51 ais523: but surely if you have something purely declarative, like a SAT-solver (or finite domain solver) or But is it art, and you want to use it with non-interactive IO on the top level, it'll treat input and output the same, right? the declarative part tries to find a solution where one "side" of the program matches the input, the other "side" of the program matches the output, and everything inside 08:26:57 satisfies the declarative rules, and if you "turn the program upside down" then it'll compute the input from the output. 08:27:35 it won't literally be the left and right edge of a BIIA program because that is not a flexible enough IO convention, but it could be just certain shapes at the edge 08:27:56 b_jonas: imagine a language that uses an input-by-macro technique, i.e. the input gets inserted into the program via find-and-replace of a particular symbol 08:28:08 declarative languages clearly can do that, and it just as clearly can't be used for output 08:28:20 like imagine some freakish vector multiplication algorithm which is done by just a few if's because of how it's handling the data 08:28:54 the interesting thing about declarative languages is that they all *can* do Prolog-style I/O because you can constrain the output to be of the form of an (input,output) pair, and then further constrain the input side of it 08:28:55 this goes back to those chaotic cellular automata, where said representation is uncomputable to go in/out of 08:29:01 but they don't *have* to do I/O like that 08:29:25 MarkFan8901: anyway, the interesting thing about the repeated-multiply-by-1.5 program is that the internal behaviour isn't uncomputable at all 08:29:38 ais523: ok, so other ways of IO can work, and may be more convenient sometimes 08:29:44 not only is the entire internal state visible (and very simple), you can also efficiently skip forwards 08:29:58 huh 08:30:00 perlbot compose `fact oeis `eval @a=2; push@a, int($a[-1]*3/2) for 0..13; join",",@a%% 08:30:35 another thought we just had 08:30:43 but we still don't know how to prove things like "the ratio of 0s and 1s in any prefix of the sequence never goes beyond 2:1" 08:30:51 maybe chaotic sequences are somehow turing complete systems looked at from the wrong angle 08:31:06 perlbot fact oeis 1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683,59049,177147,531441 08:31:07 oh this is worth asking 08:31:22 can pdas produce the hydra sequence? 08:31:55 I don't think it's been proven that they can't, but it would surprise me 08:32:12 Hi 08:32:16 hi 08:32:22 a PDA can't remember the result of a multiplication it performs (it can multiply by a constant and output the product but it can't remember the product while doing so) 08:32:24 yeah if they couldnt that would support what we said 08:33:33 OK, I need to fix that statement a bit, it can multiply from input to memory or memory to output but not from memory to memory 08:34:44 what if every program a turing machine can run that lower computational classes cant are interpreters for some turing complete language 08:35:49 interpreters have to take input, I think? but that might still be true, depending on how you define "program" 08:36:23 actually no, there are some programs that take no input but produce output that requires Turing-completeness to produce 08:36:49 ye that might actually just be true 08:36:51 (such as a program which outputs all halting BF programs) 08:36:54 its really cool to think about tbh 08:37:39 interestingly, this doesn't require being able to solve the halting problem (and is computable) as long as you don't require the programs to be output in any particular order (just that any halting program is output eventually) 08:38:16 yea cuz you can recursively enumerate over all bf programs 08:38:21 because you can output them sorted in an order like "length of program + number of steps it takes to halt" 08:38:22 and return them whenever they halt 08:38:47 you basically just implement a look-up table of bf programs that halt 08:38:54 anyway, apparently https://oeis.org/A061418 https://oeis.org/A061419 are the sequences that you were talking about. I hadn't heard of these. 08:39:10 which makes sense because computing that via any general pattern would be impossible 08:39:13 on a tm 08:39:24 and perlbot has a function named oeis_r that's newer than the oeis builtin, but I can't get that one to work either 08:39:34 and I don't want to debug it right now 08:39:40 b_jonas: the two are just off by one from each other 08:40:12 ais523: ok, but are those the sequences that you were talking about? 08:40:16 yes 08:40:29 antihydra starts with 8, I think 08:40:38 but has a much more searchable name than hydra, which starts with 2 08:41:04 wait how does the antihydra work 08:41:08 in comparison to the hydra 08:41:11 https://oeis.org/A061418 says under formula that A061418(n) = A061419(n)+1 08:41:29 https://oeis.org/A386792 08:41:36 wouldnt that make the sequences 1 and 2s 08:41:38 MarkFan8901: same sequence, just a different starting value 08:41:42 ah oka 08:41:44 y 08:41:46 8 (as opposed to 2 for Hydra) 08:42:07 how does it work for other values? 08:42:07 so https://oeis.org/A386792 ? 08:42:10 like 1.4 instead of 1.5 08:42:17 I'm slow 08:42:18 does the sequence converge then 08:42:24 it's pretty chaotic for any non-integer, I think 08:42:30 hum 08:42:40 err, non-integer greater than 1 08:42:54 Sequence for 0.5 :D 08:43:08 oh wait hold on 08:43:24 (as long as you start with a value sufficiently large that you don't get a sequence of repeats) 08:43:59 technically pdas couldnt strictly calculuate the hydra sequence even when multiplying by a <1 value without cheating 08:44:17 even though it would mostly be 0s 08:44:19 right, but they can cheat very easily 08:44:28 OH wait hold on 08:44:32 output eventually repeats so you just have to hardcode it… 08:45:27 in the same way, a turing machine can cheat on an uncomputable problem by generating the look-up table that solves it 08:46:00 well, only if there are finitely many possible inputs 08:46:13 I guess PDAs get stuck the same way if you want to use a value <0.5 but starting with any starting value 08:46:26 ye 08:46:40 * <1.0 08:46:40 hm 08:47:07 maybe a truly unstructured programming language would also have to be meta-turing complete 08:47:35 in the sense that calculating how structures correspond to their programs would also be turing complete 08:47:49 yeah wait that might also be a good starting point 08:48:36 hmm, in the spirit of A Pear Tree… "the program must have a CRC-32 hash of 00000000 and must be the shortest such program that computes the same function" 08:48:47 wtf 08:48:49 looking up that language rn 08:49:02 (CRC-32 isn't preimage-resistant, which is part of the reason I chose it) 08:49:10 https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_Pear_Tree 08:49:46 whats preimaging 08:49:59 given a hash, determine a string that hashes to that hash 08:50:16 ahh 08:50:20 cryptographically secure hashing algorithms are designed to be impossible to preimage or collide, this is the main requirement on them 08:50:24 ais523: that would result in an uncomputable language very soon, right? 08:50:26 but some hashes are not cryptographically secure 08:50:44 "Various options are set automatically depending on the presence of input on standard input and on the presence of the letter F in the program" is a hell of a modification 08:51:06 b_jonas: it's uncomputable to check whether the program is syntactically correct or not, but not uncomputable to execute it if you treat incorrect programs as UB 08:51:45 I think that's too weak of a requirement for a cryptographically secure hash, but it's certainly at least a requirement 08:53:03 * ais523 is reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Language_That_Explodes 08:53:05 ais523: oh, I think I misunderstood your specification. and even now it sounds ambiguous. 08:53:19 b_jonas: it is too weak, there are other requirements too, but they're less important 08:54:31 ais523: yes that language is what we were getting at when we were talking about chaotic cellular automata 08:54:44 theyre computable but they have uncomputable encodings 08:54:58 -!- [][][][] has changed nick to raiseafloppafan7. 08:55:07 oh hi raiseafloppafan7 08:55:31 -!- de67 has joined. 08:55:37 helo markfan8901 (im the [][][][] guy) 08:55:40 hi de67 08:55:48 Helo de67 08:56:23 hi guys 08:56:38 you should read logs 08:56:40 theyre intensely interesting 08:57:02 i wanted to say that my definition seems to not be totally correct, just the unique properties being uncomputable seems to be enough 08:57:15 idk 08:57:49 we have a definition we came up with in confluence with talking to ais that we think is more accurate to what he imagines unstructured programming to be 08:57:55 wow thats a lot of stuff thatvhappened 08:58:05 who does he refer to? 08:58:13 oh 08:58:17 ais523? 08:58:19 ye 08:58:27 uh we just forgot it tho :sob: 08:58:59 damn 08:59:41 okay wait found it 09:00:20 in a truly unstructured language, calculating how structures correspond to their programs is turing complete 09:00:32 (or uncomputable) 09:00:57 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197520&oldid=197519 * Cordership * (+332) /* Modules */ 09:01:58 that also lets you write programs with structure effectively, but you physically cant use the same structures across different programs 09:02:09 because figuring out how to do that would be either turing complete or uncomputable 09:02:35 ais523: maybe what you're thinking about could be better formulated by the idea of locality 09:02:52 typically, programming languages have some degree of locality to all of their commands 09:03:13 in bf, for example, you can turn an increment to a decrement quite easily 09:03:15 I think locality is probably the right point of view here 09:03:19 ye 09:03:32 what you want is a language which provably has no locality 09:03:50 although the 2D-trace-over-self and golfing versions both have some amount of locality 09:03:59 yes, which is where they fail 09:04:07 they both just also have an amount of nonlocality and that's what causes the trouble 09:04:25 maybe neural networks are a prototype of a language which has no locality? 09:04:30 at least for random neural networks 09:04:41 neural networks turned out to have quite a lot of locality in practice 09:04:49 oh right 09:05:13 we remember our whole thing about how neural networks work by building commands fit for their task 09:05:47 the core idea of having literally everything be connected to literally everything else might be a good starting point though 09:05:59 on CGCC there was a competition to write three simple programs that were all anagrams of each other, and make them as short as possible 09:05:59 in the sense of how different layers of networks are connected to each other 09:06:24 so characters that were used for one program would ideally be used for the others, rather than just commented out, to save on charactets 09:06:25 ais523: that sounds awful and awesome 09:06:26 * characters 09:07:17 I wrote my programs in 7 (which has an 8-element character set), meaning that I could use the elements of the string literal in the hello world program to write the entirety of the other two 09:07:38 but it was nontrivial, I kept finding savings 09:07:41 wait is 7 here a programming language 09:07:49 https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 09:08:00 im struggling to keep up with allat 09:08:14 im reading the logs 09:08:18 some interetsing stuf 09:08:19 yea this has been a very chaotic chat 09:09:17 hm 09:09:34 maybe some entropy-complete compression of lambda calculus could work? 09:09:45 if you had to write from the perspective of the compression scheme 09:09:53 `? entropy-complete 09:09:57 entropy-complete? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:11:04 entropy completeness is, given any piece of random data, it's valid in the compression scheme 09:11:38 so it's incompatible with any self-delimiting encodings? that's... awkward 09:12:12 we think such encodings would actually be chalk full of self-delimiting 09:12:44 just incredibly complicated ways of doing so 09:13:10 to be honest I don't know what exactly a crypto hash function has to satisfy. if I try to come up with requirements then they're either too weak or too strong. 09:13:31 we feel like a bunch of weak ones would work 09:14:03 but we have applications where we are using a cryptographic hash function and we require more from it than just simple preimage-resistance 09:17:55 -!- Yayimhere22 has joined. 09:18:29 Hy 09:18:40 lots of things have happened since you left 09:19:28 damn 09:19:30 well 09:19:36 still i wont have time until i get home 09:19:42 aww okay 09:19:43 man i miss the weekend already! 09:19:58 hm 09:20:00 idea we just had 09:20:01 but im excited to read it!!! 09:20:12 yknow how constraint languages are like declarative programming? 09:20:12 if your good with it 09:20:25 i can ping you and list all the thougts i got in the meanwhile 09:20:25 what would the imperative programming equivalent be 09:20:28 on what you said 09:20:31 okik 09:20:46 markfan8901: i mean 09:20:53 ok lemme think about this 09:21:24 a delcrative program declares a bunch of statements A, which as it goes along slowly distills your "Intent" as I? 09:21:31 am i right? 09:21:49 ye 09:22:01 it derives the control flow from the statements 09:22:09 cuz then a imperative program (TMK) executes a list of atoms A 09:22:14 well lets call it B actually 09:22:26 and slowly distills your "execution" E? 09:22:31 kinda? 09:22:38 mm 09:22:43 here's how we're thinking about it 09:22:59 a declarative program is a description of what an imperative program *would* do 09:23:08 and execution of a declarative program is finding that program 09:23:22 in the case of constraint languages, that's solving for the program 09:23:23 cuz then constraint languages makes A into the constraints C, and I into the language family F? 09:23:43 but like idk 09:23:46 thats a great question 09:23:53 ye thank u 09:24:02 i mean 09:24:16 WAIT 09:24:36 in declarative programming you have AI. but in a imperative program you have the IP(instruction pointer)??? 09:24:38 right? 09:24:41 am i insane? 09:24:52 you might be insane 09:24:58 consider the waterfall model 09:25:13 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197521&oldid=197520 * Cordership * (+144) /* Module 8: str */ 09:25:16 true 09:25:22 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197522&oldid=197521 * Cordership * (+0) /* Module 8: str */ 09:25:47 i guess its about sideffects more than anything? 09:25:48 in imperative programming you're given a program to execute the code 09:26:01 in declarative programming you aren't 09:26:17 you have to use ai to find the code to execute 09:26:25 hi guys 09:26:27 hi 09:26:32 ive finally read the logs 09:26:34 and in imperative you have to use an IP to execute 09:26:38 god that was was exhausting 09:26:47 Yayimhere22: again consider the waterfall model 09:26:48 but it was interesting 09:26:51 ..actually hold on 09:27:00 what if the ip was instead in the rules of the language 09:27:13 de67: apologies for that 09:27:16 hmmmmmmmmm 09:27:17 it was an incredibly active chat 09:27:19 thats also weird 09:27:22 much more information density than usual 09:27:29 now i meed to read logs since 08:55 utc... 09:27:31 ugh 09:27:42 take a break if you need to 09:27:56 whatever 09:27:57 idk man 09:28:07 ill skip that for now 09:28:11 oki 09:28:55 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197523&oldid=197522 * Cordership * (-494) 09:28:57 the "all programs have to be writeen from scratch" thing" remind me of hammerandsickle phase 1 09:29:05 i think its kinda like i think maybe imperative and declarative are different *kinds* of ways to define what kind of language a language is. Like theres functional vs imperative, and then theres declarative vs [un-declarative whatever that is], i dont think its declarative vs imperative 09:29:17 but maybe im wrong 09:29:20 hm true 09:29:25 you mean like declarative and imperative arent opposites 09:29:25 ive never rlly understood the category of 09:29:28 imperative 09:29:31 markfan8901: yes 09:29:39 hm thats true honestly 09:29:41 or like they aren't on the same spectrum of 09:29:43 uknow 09:29:44 is there a rigid definition of imperative 09:29:45 in hammerandsickle phase 1, every instruction changes how the rest of the program is interpreted 09:29:49 paradigms 09:29:56 so a piece of code is not reusable 09:29:56 de67: wait thats really cool 09:30:00 de67: that makes it very unstructed 09:30:02 as we say 09:30:18 well idk *how* very 09:30:48 MarkFan8901: perhaps a good definition would be that imperative execution can be modeled with an fsa 09:30:58 prolly 09:31:02 yea that seems right 09:31:09 is imperative not always FSA+MEM? 09:31:11 am i insane? 09:31:16 that sounds about right 09:31:21 turing machine is FSA+TAPE 09:31:32 waterfall is FSA+NUMBERS 09:31:35 or smth lol 09:31:39 *WAIT* 09:31:42 yayimhere22: you can have pda+tape 09:31:46 true 09:31:46 which is what brainfuck si 09:31:52 lol 09:32:04 isn't declarative AI+DEFINITIONS? 09:32:12 ? 09:32:29 that sounds about right 09:32:36 ok 09:32:41 but we're trying to think of exceptions to that 09:32:45 declarative is basically you have some properties, and the output must have the propertues 09:33:00 yea and you need some sort of ai to do that 09:33:01 so you find mapping of FSA -> AI, and MEM -> DEFINITIONS 09:33:02 no that is right 09:33:15 Yayimhere22: dunno how formal that mapping is 09:33:25 and you get FSA+MEM -> AI+DEFINITIONS 09:33:34 we would suggest you use more informal terms so its less ambiguous as to what youre trying to say 09:33:48 markfan8901: im just trying to get a basis on how this could be formalised 09:34:03 how would you describe all of this without trying to do that 09:34:09 i mean 09:34:30 idk man 09:34:43 idk how i would describe it without that im very sorrly 09:34:43 perhaps you need to think about your thoughts more 09:34:46 its oki 09:35:31 typically when you cant describe ideas in words well, it means the ideas are currently fuzzy and vague 09:35:31 if i understand everything correctly, a misnky machine is a fsa hooked up to an array of counters 09:35:39 de67: ye 09:35:40 yea 09:35:41 it can increment and decrement any counter 09:35:56 and check any counter if its 0, and change its state based on that 09:36:35 a turing machine is the same but the counters are bounded and the tape is infinite 09:36:44 ok 09:36:48 what if bf is fsa+mem but one of the commands an fsa can do is fetch the current cell 09:37:25 or do we misunderstand where it being a pda comes from 09:37:29 to get the constraint language equavilent for an imperative language, one way to do that is to find out first how to turn an imperative language into a declarative language. because then you get the constraint lnauggae out of the delcarative language which was made from an imperative one 09:37:33 but thats ramble or smth 09:37:34 I GTG 09:37:39 aw oki 09:37:40 cya 09:37:43 ill have more clear thoughts when i get home prolly 09:37:44 bye, cya! 09:37:48 -!- Yayimhere22 has quit (Quit: Client closed). 09:37:53 MarkFan8901: now that im thinking of it, any program for a turing machine is better visualized as a graph 09:38:10 yee 09:38:24 one where the nodes are states and the edges are conditionals 09:38:39 and you have a set of conditionals you can pick from the same way you have a set of states 09:38:43 cya Yayimheret22 09:39:07 oh this also models nondeterministic tms very well too 09:39:15 just have more than one edge per node 09:39:34 more than one valid* edge per node 09:39:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 09:39:59 weighyed graphs? 09:40:05 elaborate 09:40:22 weighted graphs are graphs where each edge has a weight 09:40:28 ye 09:40:33 this is usually used in nondeterministic algorithms 09:40:45 what do the weights represent 09:40:51 hm 09:40:55 the probabilities? 09:40:59 ah 09:41:11 ye thats for probabilistic algorithms specifically 09:41:20 which are a subset of nondeterministic algorithms 09:42:14 the strict definition of a nondeterministic algorithm is simply one where there can be multiple correct paths to be taken at some point in it 09:42:50 typically all correct paths are taken at the same time; probabilistic algorithms are unique in that they pick only one 09:43:18 I don't know what languages count as declarative, and I'm pretty sure people disagree on what counts as functional languages. I made https://esolangs.org/wiki/Olvashat%C3%B3 for a university class that is called "declarative programming", a class that teaches about Standard ML and Prolog. But the category sounds fuzzy and I don't really know what else it includes and excludes. 09:43:42 yeah its weird 09:44:15 I'm also not sure about what counts as imperative, another fuzzy category. 09:44:49 b_jonas: to me it always was, this thing happens, then that thing happens, then that other things happens 09:45:03 where the programmer has direct control over the sequence of actions 09:45:07 we've just been coming up with definitions that make talking aobut esolangs more useful 09:46:00 oh another thing about functional programming 09:46:10 the esowiki has https://esolangs.org/wiki/Declarative_paradigm and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Functional_paradigm that try to explain this, but that doesn't match the use of declarative that I mentioned. 09:46:16 originally it meant programming which focused on functionality instead of values 09:46:19 ie tacit programming 09:46:28 fortunately I think these are categories where I don't have to know what they mean 09:46:38 yea we feel like no one else does either 09:46:46 either that or its more of a social category 09:47:32 imperative programming is a paradigm the same way soda is a kind of drink 09:47:50 its quite similar to how most oiscs can be described as very complicated ziscz 09:48:14 perhaps anything can be described as extremely complicated ziscs 09:48:36 ones which just grow the semantics of a commanded language in their complexity 09:54:23 okay jeez we think we got lost in the sauce there for a while 09:54:29 (we went to go grab popcorn) 09:54:36 we think yayimhere was too 10:00:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:00:14 hi ais 10:01:08 hi 10:01:23 The Waterfall Model does sort-of have an instruction pointer (the waterclock with the lowest value acts a lot like an instruction pointer) 10:01:40 hm 10:01:42 but the data storage and control flow is all mixed up, which helps to make it easier to implement as they're both treated the same way 10:01:53 ye 10:05:36 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:10:42 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197524&oldid=197523 * Cordership * (+194) 10:13:44 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197525&oldid=197524 * Cordership * (+113) 10:15:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 10:15:26 ais523: so there's something that I find funny. TAOCP chapter 1.3.1 says that "There are nine registers in MIX", listing them as A, X, I1..=I6, J, then says "Besides its registers, MIX contains an overflow toggle […]; a comparison indicator […]; memory (4000 words of storage […]); and input-output devices […]". It also has a figure 13 that shows exactly the registers and other elements listed 10:15:32 above. But this list specifically doesn't include the program counter (instruction pointer). And MMIX is described the same way, without explicitly saying that there's a program counter that's part of the machine's state. Whereas I would say that the program counter is a register in both MIX and MMIX. This is just a terminology difference, not semantic, it's not like these machines treat the program 10:15:38 counter differently from eg. x86. But I find it funny. 10:24:03 -!- esolangs has joined. 10:24:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs. 10:24:18 -!- MarkFan8901 has joined. 10:24:31 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 10:25:39 -!- [][][][] has changed nick to raiseafloppafan7. 10:33:06 -!- de67 has joined. 10:33:16 hi guys 10:33:18 im back 10:34:03 -!- raiseafloppafan7 has quit (Quit: raiseafloppafan7). 10:34:44 -!- ChimeraAnova has joined. 10:34:44 -!- PkmnQ has joined. 10:39:28 [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197526&oldid=197486 * None1 * (+391) 10:39:58 " but, e.g., Tableaux and Banana Scheme are hard to compile between each other and probably don't have the same computational class" i think Tableaux is more powerful than Banana Scheme, or at the very least I couldn't figure out a way to implement Tableaux into Banana Scheme the last time I tried 10:53:35 [[Entitia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197527 * Cordership * (+453) Created page with "Entitia by [[User:Cordership]], is an esolang based on entities. ==Syntax== *Values: Integers. *Transforms: **VT transforms take in 1 entity and produce either another entity or a transform. **PS produces another entity. Making a semi-entity: 10:53:50 [[User:Cordership]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197528&oldid=197226 * Cordership * (+14) /* Esolangs */ 10:54:45 `factor 94 10:54:48 94: 2 47 11:01:32 factor -2 11:09:05 -!- ajal has joined. 11:10:36 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vextoly * New user account 11:14:58 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197529&oldid=197402 * Vextoly * (+230) 11:18:21 [[User talk:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197530&oldid=196735 * Blashyrkh * (+87) introduce some structure for possible further discussions 11:23:47 -!- de67 has changed nick to esom. 11:23:56 -!- esom has changed nick to esomar. 11:24:36 -!- esomar has changed nick to de67]. 11:24:39 -!- de67] has changed nick to de67. 11:24:46 -!- de67 has changed nick to []][][][][][][][. 11:25:21 []][][][][][][][ 11:26:30 <[]][][][][][][][> im gonna read rfc 1459 11:28:05 -!- []][][][][][][][ has changed nick to `}`}`}-]`]]`]-]-. 11:28:15 the important part is that [] are upper case versions of {} 11:29:20 I still think that RFC 1359 did not allow nicks starting with []^{}~ 11:29:25 1459 11:32:04 -!- `}`}`}-]`]]`]-]- has changed nick to ^`--]-^``}[^}`-\. 11:32:39 -!- ^`--]-^``}[^}`-\ has changed nick to }[]--[\}}^{[\``^. 11:32:42 <}[]--[\}}^{[\``^> yep 11:32:46 <}[]--[\}}^{[\``^> thats an amazing nicl 11:34:36 -!- PkmnQ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:40:24 -!- }[]--[\}}^{[\``^ has changed nick to de67. 11:44:04 -!- PkmnQ has joined. 11:46:21 [[Talk:ChangeFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197531 * Win7HE * (+120) Created page with "i'm pretty sure its turing complete... -- ~~~~" 11:49:27 [[Talk:ChangeFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197532&oldid=197531 * Dragoneater67 * (+200) 11:57:21 -!- PkmnQ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:10:33 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197533&oldid=197525 * Cordership * (+171) 12:15:03 [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197534&oldid=197533 * Cordership * (+128) /* CT interpreter */ 12:21:17 fungot: How much washing contraption sanitizing product should I try consuming for all my days? 12:21:17 ChimeraAnova: if something is a little gui stuff in mred, just to prove the haltingness of at least 12:28:48 [[ChangeFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197535&oldid=187467 * None1 * (+44) /* Usability */ 12:29:12 [[Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197536&oldid=184269 * None1 * (+30) 12:39:45 -!- ChimeraAnova has left. 12:41:50 -!- ChimeraAnova has joined. 12:45:34 fungot: i 12:45:34 ChimeraAnova: which client? 12:49:21 -!- de67 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:51:55 -!- de67 has joined. 12:52:45 int-e: what? I thought nicks starting with at least []{} were always allowed, there's just a difference between how servers casefold in nicks and channels 12:54:10 a difference between irc networks in that, not really individual servers 12:54:21 b_jonas: ::= { | | }, ::= 'a' ... 'z' | 'A' ... 'Z' 12:54:31 and freenode switched from the ASCII casefolding rules to the ISO-646 one IIRC 12:54:43 int-e: aren't the brackest letters in those definitions? 12:54:47 ah no 12:54:48 hmm 12:55:04 b_jonas: the RFC may not reflect any implementations, of course 12:55:26 sure, in particular I think freenode usually didn't allow non-ascii characters in channel names while the RFC allows them 12:56:02 -!- ManDeJan has quit (Ping timeout: 270 seconds). 12:59:39 [[Braindrunk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197537&oldid=197536 * Blashyrkh * (+0) /* See also */ Fix redlink 13:00:21 -!- ChimeraAnova has changed nick to []{test}. 13:00:40 -!- []{test} has changed nick to []{almost-a-cpp-. 13:00:44 -!- []{almost-a-cpp- has changed nick to []{almost-a-lamb. 13:00:53 -!- []{almost-a-lamb has changed nick to raiseafloppafan7. 13:07:47 -!- ManDeJan has joined. 13:40:05 [[User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197538&oldid=197420 * Dragoneater67 * (+474) 13:42:27 [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197539&oldid=197526 * Cleverxia * (+185) 13:46:38 [[Talk:Turtlefuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197540&oldid=197539 * None1 * (+400) By estimation 13:47:47 [[User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197541&oldid=197538 * Dragoneater67 * (-591) testin; done 13:48:08 [[BFFuck/3.x plans]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197542&oldid=197018 * None1 * (+38) /* Bottom-level commands */ Implement move instruction 13:48:37 [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197543&oldid=197421 * Cordership * (+14) /* Definitions */ 13:50:04 [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197544&oldid=197016 * None1 * (+89) /* Syntax */ Add move instruction 13:51:07 [[BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197545&oldid=197544 * None1 * (+101) 13:53:33 `eot 13:53:36 As of 13:53:35, 06 Oct 2026, we are 83.413664988900% to the end of time, which has gone up 0.019512185836% since this was last ran on 17:29:54, 01 Oct 2026. The next percentile is in 145 days, 17 hours, 37 minutes, and 28 seconds on 07:31:03, 01 Mar 2027. 13:54:01 close to 0.02% 13:54:10 [[Quaternions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197546&oldid=196743 * Cleverxia * (+931) fiix wording and add a dialect 13:54:35 `cat /hackenv/bin/eot.lua 13:54:38 cat: /hackenv/bin/eot.lua: No such file or directory 13:54:43 [[Entitia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197547&oldid=197527 * Cordership * (+697) 13:54:43 `cat /hackenv/bin/endoftime.lua 13:54:46 ​-- this is messily written but whatever \ local last = io.open("/hackenv/tmp/eotlast", "r") \ local u = os.time() \ local lt = last and tonumber(last:read("*n")) \ if last then last:close() end \ local f = "!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y" \ local np = math.floor(math.ceil(u/2147483647*100)/100*(2^31-1)) \ local pdiff = np-u \ local d = os.date \ function plural(n, s) return n.." "..s:sub(1, n == 1 and -2 or -1) end \ local ds = {} \ if pdiff > 86400 then ds[ 13:54:47 [[Quaternions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197548&oldid=197546 * Cleverxia * (+5) why is my edits bugging so much 13:55:37 `lua -eprint(os.date("!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y", math.floor(os.time()+0.1*(2^31-1)))) 13:55:38 [[Quaternions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197549&oldid=197548 * Cleverxia * (+11) /* Octonerions */ 13:55:40 02:15:03, 27 Jul 2033 13:55:45 ... 13:56:15 `lua -eprint(os.date("!%H:%M:%S, %d %b %Y", math.floor(os.time()+0.001*(2^31-1)))) 13:56:18 10:27:40, 31 Oct 2026 13:56:56 [[BFFuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197550&oldid=197545 * None1 * (+11) /* External Resources */ 13:58:12 [[Quaternions]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197551&oldid=197549 * Blashyrkh * (+0) /* Interpreter */ fix typo 14:00:57 [[Entitia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197552&oldid=197547 * Cordership * (+58) 14:01:35 [[Talk:Quaternions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197553&oldid=196726 * Blashyrkh * (+137) /* Proper spelling */ new section 14:06:08 eso​langs: fun​got 14:06:32 b_jonas: I think the ircd before ircd-seven did, because I was in a channel prior to the upgrade (on freenode) that couldn't be joined after 14:06:54 FireFly: possible 14:07:20 [[Talk:Quaternions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197554&oldid=197553 * Blashyrkh * (+136) /* Proper spelling */ 14:07:44 the libera server doesn't seem to allow non-ascii channel names, at least some of them 14:19:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:21:29 -!- PkmnQ has joined. 14:26:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 14:32:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 14:37:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 14:38:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 14:38:26 [[23]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197555&oldid=197417 * PkmnQ * (+2) /* Initialization */ 14:51:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 15:04:13 -!- PkmnQ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:16:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:24:26 [[Polynomix/Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197556&oldid=188959 * I am islptng * (+385) 15:30:48 -!- raiseafloppafan7 has quit (Quit: I've become sleepy.). 16:02:31 [[Bitch, Ienai!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197557&oldid=197543 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-14) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/197543|197543]] by [[Special:Contributions/Cordership|Cordership]] ([[User talk:Cordership|talk]]) unneeded/implied 16:02:51 -!- yayimheretoo has joined. 16:02:53 badum-tsssss 16:02:57 im here 16:03:03 thats VERY funny 16:11:27 -!- yayimheretoo has quit (Quit: Client closed). 16:13:46 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds). 16:14:30 -!- jix has joined. 16:16:23 -!- yayimheretoo has joined. 16:16:24 well that was quick 16:17:07 yayimheretoo: plz join esolang.forum 16:17:17 de67: mmmm 16:17:20 maybe later 16:17:25 ok 16:17:26 *shhe says the 100th time) 16:17:34 lol 16:18:23 alr 16:18:26 bye guys 16:18:46 -!- de67 has quit (Quit: FUNGOT WILL END US ALL!!!). 16:20:09 markfan8901: I LIVE 16:20:10 lmao 16:20:14 ill go through logs tommorow sorry 16:20:21 didn't realize how ttired i'd be 16:26:54 -!- CRISPR has joined. 16:44:44 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds). 16:46:49 -!- Riviera has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:47:00 -!- de67 has joined. 16:47:18 -!- de67 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:09 -!- Riviera has joined. 16:53:32 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: zzzz <3). 16:54:23 -!- Lymia has joined. 17:16:18 [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197558&oldid=196436 * Miui * (+60) /* Works in progress */ add septemdecagams 17:26:12 [[User:Miui/septemdecagams]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197559 * Miui * (+7742) initial sketch of an septemdecagam 17:34:03 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 17:40:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:48:42 -!- yayimheretoo has quit (Quit: Client closed). 17:50:21 [[Bitch, Ienai!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197560&oldid=197557 * MarkFan8901 * (+19) 17:51:05 -!- inhahe has joined. 18:23:00 ais523: what if you had a 2d language where, instead of moving one square at a time, it 'jumps' over multiple at a time 18:23:36 and how many squares it jumps over is tied to how big the program is 19:04:55 -!- APic has joined. 19:26:50 Funge-98 has the former (but not the latter), in that you can set the direction to be an arbitrary vector. 19:45:29 -!- CRISPR has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:48:08 cu 😎 19:49:31 fizzie: huh 19:49:32 interesting 19:50:03 actually what if the vector was determined by the sum of all of the individual commands in the program 19:50:45 we feel like that would make it easy to deliberately construct vectors, but probably harder to write programs within that constraint 19:50:50 the important part is that that wouldnt be impossible 19:51:01 but it *would* be impossible to try to modify such a program 20:06:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 20:07:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 20:17:20 : that might be because banana scheme is just scheme but with an infinite amount of oracles for solving the halting problem 20:17:38 whereas tableaux can solve any given uncomputable problem 20:18:50 [[Talk:BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197561&oldid=195973 * Assembly * (+26) /* Brainfuckfuck */ new section 20:18:59 [[Talk:BFFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197562&oldid=197561 * Assembly * (+157) /* Brainfuckfuck */ 20:34:32 -!- sprock has joined. 20:48:41 [[Kcufniarb (ais523)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197563&oldid=197515 * Hotcrystal0 * (+5) this 21:03:23 [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197564&oldid=197558 * Miui * (+59) /* Works in progress */ add Never Twice the Same (NTSC) 21:03:39 [[Never Twice the Same (NTSC)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=197565 * Miui * (+1110) post sketches 21:06:41 [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf/Code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197566&oldid=197448 * Blashyrkh * (+222) Primes @ [[14]] (121 bytes) 21:08:35 [[User:Blashyrkh/Golf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197567&oldid=197450 * Blashyrkh * (+51) Primes @ [[14]] (121 bytes) 21:15:59 [[User:Hotcrystal0/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197568&oldid=196971 * Hotcrystal0 * (+152) 21:26:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 21:29:21 [[14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197569&oldid=196231 * Blashyrkh * (+261) /* Examples */ Prime number generator 21:43:55 [[Talk:14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197570&oldid=195369 * Blashyrkh * (+390) /* Examples */ new section 21:48:30 [[User:Aadenboy/546372]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197571&oldid=196331 * Aadenboy * (+7) 21:54:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:01:16 -!- sprock has quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds). 22:04:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 22:05:39 [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197572&oldid=189077 * MarkFan8901 * (-14) fix names 22:05:59 [[BF-SC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197573&oldid=14118 * MarkFan8901 * (-9) fix name 22:24:57 -!- ajal has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:00:59 -!- CRISPR has joined. 23:30:19 [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197574&oldid=195348 * Tommyaweosme * (+113) 23:30:24 [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=197575&oldid=197574 * Tommyaweosme * (+1) 23:31:44 isnt page crapping just vandalizing 23:36:43 -!- CRISPR has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:38:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 23:42:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 23:57:04 hm 23:57:22 we're thinking about how making a solver from natural language to some other language would work without an llm 23:57:55 and we thought about somehow formalizing how natural language works 23:58:13 we've actually kind of done this before, at least for the structure of one 23:58:44 the idea is that a sentence is a tree, where each node has either 1 or 2 children 23:59:14 leaves are called nouns, single-child nodes are called adjectives, and double-child nodes are verbs