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22:52:58 <Toreun> my esolang is turing complete
23:10:07 <fizzie> next you need formal proof of correctness for your interpreter.
23:11:56 <Toreun> for which interpreter?
23:12:09 <Toreun> my brainfuck interpreter or my esolang interpreter?
23:14:56 <fizzie> well, optimally 'both'. first one to confirm the turing-completeness and the second one to make sure you have something to reliably run it on.
23:16:28 <Toreun> well, the first thing I should do is convert my esolang interpreter to some sort of compiled language
23:17:40 <fizzie> what's it written now in?
23:18:05 <Toreun> I would've done it in C but I like having automatic typecasting
23:18:21 <fizzie> ah. how peculiar. I haven't ever written non-web-related php.
23:18:33 <fizzie> actually I think my php doesn't have the cli module compiled in.
23:18:39 <Toreun> it's such an easy language to use
23:18:46 <Toreun> doesn't it come with it?
23:18:56 <fizzie> yes, but it's not compiled in.
23:19:04 <fizzie> felt it was unnecessary.
23:19:45 <fizzie> I just think it's a bit boring language. it's not very special in any way.
23:20:12 <lament> fizzie: i thought it sucked in that it was designed for doing things that shouldn't be done
23:20:22 <lament> (i.e. embedding code in html pages)
23:20:34 <fizzie> well, but you don't need to do that.
23:20:41 <Toreun> you think code shouldn't be embedded into html?
23:20:42 <lament> fizzie: that's what it was designed for.
23:20:50 <lament> Toreun: of course it shouldn't.
23:21:40 <lament> Toreun: because the logic of an application is normally independent from its appearance
23:21:49 <Toreun> oh, that's what you mean
23:23:33 <fizzie> but I don't think people would guess the language was designed to be embedded in html pages, based on only the language.
23:24:05 <fizzie> if you don't count the "<?php" and "?>" parts as the language.
23:24:55 <lament> as far as i know, the whole design philosophy is based on that.
23:25:00 <Toreun> it's just a general purpose language, in my opinion... just for quick program development
23:25:05 <lament> i'm sure the decisions made were extremely far-reaching
23:25:23 <lament> and permeate the whole language
23:25:26 <fizzie> I don't see much "design philosophy" in php.
23:25:36 <lament> mind you, i don't know php, so i can't give concrete examples
23:25:40 <lament> fizzie: that's part of it :)
23:26:11 <Toreun> apart from the error outputting, which is in HTML, and the HTML/XML built in functions, it's not really /made for/ web development
23:27:05 <fizzie> generally I just think php is boring. it does the normal imperative programming basics. oh, there's something I dislike: the "object system", if it can be called that.
23:27:32 <Toreun> well, it is very primitive
23:27:48 <fizzie> verily, and quite obviously added as an afterthought.
23:27:55 <Toreun> but PHP 5 attempts to fix that
23:28:43 <Toreun> not successfully, of course
23:28:47 <fizzie> on the positive side, the few times I've written php the code hasn't turned out to look like line noise, which is what happens when I try perl.
23:29:19 <Toreun> in general, I find languages with a <=> operator are scary
23:29:53 <fizzie> for some reason with perl there's the subconscious urge to constantly do stuff like take advantage of the "$_" default-variable, and write lots of regexps.
23:30:22 <Toreun> I'm getting into regexp habits, even in PHP
23:30:35 <fizzie> but in php those are confined inside function calls.
23:30:38 <lament> that's also part of the design philosophy.
23:30:52 <fizzie> in perl the regexen are free and out there, ready to bite the programmer.
23:31:16 <lament> Toreun: of course php is made for web development
23:31:29 <lament> "personal home page" means just that
23:32:18 <fizzie> official explanation goes that PHP is a recursive acronym for "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor", actually.
23:32:25 <fizzie> web-development-related, still.
23:32:40 <lament> fizzie: the original name was the one i mentioned
23:32:54 <lament> but yeah, "hypertext preprocessor" isn't much better :)
23:33:12 <Toreun> the language really isn't anything special, so it isn't specialized for any one task
23:33:17 <lament> neither the hypertext nor the preprocessor part.
23:33:17 <fizzie> I wouldn't know, when I first heard about php it was 3.x already.
23:33:28 <lament> Toreun: why is it called "hypertext preprocessor" then?
23:33:51 <Toreun> I mean it's more general purpose
23:33:54 <lament> Toreun: are you sure it's not specialized for preprocessing hypertext? :)
23:34:07 <Toreun> it is meant to be, it's not very good at being specialized though
23:34:22 <fizzie> well, it's trying to grow out of that.
23:34:33 <lament> so the only reason it's not specialized is because it tries to be specialized, and fails?
23:34:36 <lament> a great language, indeed.
23:34:55 <Toreun> well, it is just a general language that's pretty easy to use
23:35:17 <fizzie> actually I think it was designed originally to be specialized, and then they've attempted to revise/retrofit the language to be more general-purpose.
23:35:38 <fizzie> (just a guess, I haven't seen 1.x or 2.x versions.)
23:35:52 <Toreun> originally it was called phtml, wasn't it?
23:36:22 <lament> "PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML"
23:36:41 <Toreun> that's just advertisement
23:36:58 <fizzie> also: " PHP is an HTML-embedded scripting language. Much of its syntax is borrowed from C, Java and Perl with a couple of unique PHP-specific features thrown in. The goal of the language is to allow web developers to write dynamically generated pages quickly."
23:37:29 <fizzie> considering that I use sed for general-purpose-stuff, I don't think I can judge people who use php.
23:38:16 <Toreun> really, I use whatever language that I'm most comfortable with at a given time for quick programs
23:38:48 <fizzie> they're definitely not trying to hide the web-development-aspect. also from the faq, "The biggest advantage of PHP over Perl is that PHP was designed for scripting for the web where Perl was designed to do a lot more and can because of this get very complicated."
23:39:34 <lament> but it's a fairly nice language
23:40:14 <fizzie> and sed was decided for stream editing ascii text, but it's a.. fairly.. nice.. oh, who am I kidding? it's horrid!
23:40:33 <Toreun> fizzie: try the 12 step program
23:41:24 <fizzie> the interpreter functions are written in a "pseudocode-like notation", so to say, so the interpreter can be changed on-the-fly.
23:41:46 <fizzie> (the code it uses to execute befunge is in a textfield on the page containing the interpreter code.)
23:42:13 <lament> and a nice, small core
23:42:28 <fizzie> (http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if someone's interested)
23:44:30 <Toreun> that's a pretty complex interpreter
23:44:34 <deltab> http://uk.php.net/history
23:45:34 <deltab> originally 'Personal Home Page Tools'
23:45:51 <fizzie> yes, but you can easily add befunge commands by simply editing the stuff in the textfield.
23:46:24 <deltab> I don't think PHP is all that good for the sort of web development it's used for nowadays
23:46:29 <Toreun> hmm... I wonder if my lang is similar enough to befunge to use this interpreter
23:47:31 <lament> http://lament.hypermart.net/thue.html
23:48:16 <Toreun> I'm getting errors, lament
23:48:51 <lament> Toreun: you are also very informative
23:49:05 <Toreun> I'll try it on moz, and see if it works
23:49:13 <Toreun> but the animate button returned "Object Expected"
23:49:23 <Toreun> line 127 to be specific
23:49:33 <lament> i don't think it works at all
23:49:43 <fizzie> wonder if that jakarta tapestry thing is nice.
23:49:59 <lament> yeah, it isn't implemented
23:50:04 <fizzie> our "data structures" course exercise management system uses it.
23:50:13 <lament> probably becasue i didn't find how to do timers
23:52:11 <lament> yeah, actually getting your program to output something is the most painful part
23:52:50 * lament wonders if either the befunge or the thue interpreters qualify as useful
23:52:51 <fizzie> hm. that 'tapestry' framework sounds like a good idea, but it's java. java makes me feel queasy.
23:57:08 <Toreun> wow this befunge interpreter is really nice