←2005-08-16 2005-08-17 2005-08-18→ ↑2005 ↑all
00:00:15 <GregorR> I've reached the 40s in nethack with only one key.
00:00:18 <jix> i died as a knight in the first few moves because i fall from my horse 2 times
00:00:35 <WildHalcyon> THats sad
00:03:16 <jix> i want to write a roquelike in asm
00:03:27 <jix> preferable some old cpu
00:04:10 <WildHalcyon> Older the better
00:04:37 <jix> 1802 is infinite cool
00:04:43 <jix> it's from like 1976
00:05:23 <jix> but i don't know a computer based on it that is roquelike-able
00:06:03 <WildHalcyon> Hmm, yeah, that could be an issue
00:06:18 <jix> the voyager uses 1802 cpus
00:06:28 <jix> (the space thing...)
00:06:51 <jix> the NASA asked me for a cpu and i told them a random number...
00:08:32 * jix searches a computer at http://emulation.net/
00:10:37 <jix> maybe i should use a 6502 cpu based computer
00:11:36 <jix> maybe i shouldn't start writing that because i won't finish that anyway
00:12:07 <WildHalcyon> Might be a good idea. I haven't really started any details until I finish the spec...
00:12:20 <WildHalcyon> I've got one more issue to deal with, then I think I can move on to the instruction reference and be done
00:15:00 <WildHalcyon> I'll spend a while writing a manual and handy printable pdf reference chart, then work on the interpreter
00:15:28 <WildHalcyon> And the dev tools I mentioned earlier - file format spec (easy) and conversion utility (relatively easy)
00:16:50 <jix> i'm going to write a mandelbrot renderer in 1802 asm and then mv self bed
00:17:09 <WildHalcyon> Sounds good... I think
00:17:43 <jix> but i don't get how to controll PIXIE(b/w) graphic chip...
00:18:12 <jix> it uses the 1802 data channel to direct access the memory and slow down the cpu by stealing a few cycles
00:20:30 <WildHalcyon> Hmm...
00:20:40 * WildHalcyon tries to do some vague research on that
00:20:58 <jix> the tinyelf emulator for osx is pretty cool for development
00:21:19 <jix> it has a mem viewer internal state viewer execution tracer breakpoints stepping...
00:22:01 <jix> and the 1802 has a SEX instruction
00:22:05 <jix> SEt X
00:22:36 <Gs30ng> lol
00:23:18 <jix> and you often need to set x
00:23:28 <jix> so 1802 programs contain a lot of SEX
00:23:45 <WildHalcyon> hmm... never seen a chip that needs to be rated M
00:23:50 <jix> and even the voyager space thing has a lot of SEX
00:24:17 * WildHalcyon lacks an OSX machine
00:24:29 <jix> WildHalcyon: buy one
00:24:33 <Gs30ng> what about designing a SEX Programming Language
00:25:02 <Gs30ng> EOF -> orgasm or something
00:25:22 <Gs30ng> i may be kicked
00:25:40 <WildHalcyon> Jix: Once I pay off my $70K student loans
00:26:01 <jix> my machine is 5 or 6 years old...
00:26:25 * WildHalcyon votes not to kick Gs30ng, provided he mentions John Holmes in the contributers section of his spec for the lang
00:26:51 <jix> i did some upgrades on it and it's still pretty fast
00:27:18 <WildHalcyon> First order of business is to get a new linux box
00:27:22 <Gs30ng> who is John Holmes
00:27:47 <WildHalcyon> An actor from the 70s
00:28:00 <jix> John Holmes, Porn Star
00:28:21 <jix> google is your friend
00:28:23 <WildHalcyon> He's fairly famous, and slightly esoteric, but not really.
00:39:46 <GregorR> BF->Sex translation (for encoding possibly illegal algorithms when your only means of production is porn): + = standard missionary vaginal sex, - = standard doggy-style anal sex, < = woman-on-man oral, > = man-on-woman oral, [ = 69ing, ] = anything kinky ;), ',' = female orgasm, '.' = male orgasm
00:40:40 <GregorR> Now, for DeCSS encoded as sex :P
00:41:43 <WildHalcyon> Does the program cause an error if . comes before , ?
00:42:10 <WildHalcyon> That sounded cleaner in my head. I apologize
00:42:53 <GregorR> It's purely a method of encoding BF, all quirks of BF apply.
00:43:10 <Gs30ng> you don't have to translate BF... BF is already sex. like, brainF*CK.
00:43:18 <GregorR> Heheh
00:47:29 <Gs30ng> ok reboot in windows
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00:59:50 <jix> i got the pixie to display a fixed mem position without interrupts..
00:59:59 <jix> i'd like to do it with interrupts
01:00:03 <WildHalcyon> ... yay?
01:00:07 <WildHalcyon> oh
01:00:09 <WildHalcyon> hmmm
01:03:17 <jix> and the up down resolution of the PIXIE is higher than i thought
01:03:27 <jix> most programs downsample it using tricky timing
01:03:48 <jix> and my programm is destruktive.. it destroys itself
01:03:53 <jix> by zeroing the first byte
01:04:01 <jix> and 0 == idle == halt cpu until interrupt
01:05:07 <jix> the updown resolutine is like 3x leftright resolution
01:06:36 <jix> gn8
01:07:50 <WildHalcyon> What are the resolutions?
01:08:13 <jix> i didn't count the pixels
01:08:16 * jix is searching a spec
01:08:46 <jix> 64 pixels in a line
01:09:27 <jix> 128 lines
01:09:41 <WildHalcyon> Thats fairly small. You'd be hard pressed to write a reliable roguelike on that
01:10:06 <jix> the odd thing is that it is for tv output but tvs have more ppl than lines
01:10:13 <jix> ppl is a tla for pixels per line
01:11:01 <WildHalcyon> got it
01:11:18 <jix> tla is a tla for three letter acronym
01:11:24 <WildHalcyon> Well... it makes some sense, if they're trying to get square output
01:11:39 <jix> square output?
01:12:23 <jix> the pixels are like dashes
01:12:29 <jix> not like dots/squares
01:12:37 <jix> the other way around it'd make sense
01:13:14 <WildHalcyon> I suppose because conventional pixels aren't square, they're rectangular as well
01:14:14 <jix> but conventional pixels are supposed to be 1:1 like not 1:3.. 1:1.n is ok but 1:3...
01:15:55 <WildHalcyon> Well, I can confidently claim that I have no idea why they did that
01:18:08 <jix> hehe
01:18:09 <jix> gn8
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01:57:53 <lament> conventional pixels aren't 1:1, are they?
01:58:20 <WildHalcyon> I dont think they are...
01:59:43 <WildHalcyon> PAL uses a square ratio
02:00:20 <WildHalcyon> NTSC doesnt
02:00:59 <WildHalcyon> NTSC uses 1.23
02:53:57 <GregorR> ............
02:54:06 <GregorR> I didn't think PAL was square ....
02:54:18 <GregorR> Not that I have any reason to think either way :P
02:55:16 <GregorR> Furthermore, televisions don't have horizontal pixels per se.
02:56:06 -!- calamari has joined.
02:56:12 <calamari> hi
02:56:19 <WildHalcyon> I was just looking at the site
02:56:20 <GregorR> They have a fixed number of scanlines (480 in NTSC if I remember right) with non-discrete content.
02:56:22 <WildHalcyon> Hey!
02:56:26 <WildHalcyon> You two can help me!
02:56:30 <GregorR> Oh no.
02:56:31 <GregorR> ;)
02:56:50 * calamari hides
02:57:13 <WildHalcyon> Im taking a break from my REAL esolang to work on one that is more or less just a shell of an idea.
02:57:16 <calamari> come in here! ----> +[] ;)
02:57:31 <WildHalcyon> Is it a party?
02:57:45 * WildHalcyon wears a funny hat
02:57:57 <calamari> it's liek the hotel california.. you can enter but never leave ...
02:58:10 * GregorR wears a black top-hat.
02:58:36 <WildHalcyon> hmmm... I suppose, but thats only IF you believe the eagles. I personally think they were a bunch of lying bastards.
02:58:40 * calamari doesn't generally wear hats..
02:58:54 <calamari> which is weird because it's so sunny here in AZ
02:59:32 <calamari> WildHalcyon: sorry.. bf joke.. hehehe,
02:59:44 <WildHalcyon> So, I discovered the beauty of balanced ternary arithmetic
02:59:55 <WildHalcyon> No, I get it ;-)
03:00:01 * WildHalcyon knows some BF
03:00:50 <calamari> ooh, you called it ternary istead of trinary.. coolness.. what's up?
03:01:30 <WildHalcyon> Now Im trying to implement an esolang with {-,0,+} with the + representing angels, and - represent demons, and the language motto is: "The ultimate battle between good & evil is now turing complete!"
03:02:20 <WildHalcyon> I thought about implementing a 2D terrain map, with little roads that the armies of men could take to travel between cities (operators)... but Im not quite sure where to go from there, or even if I should go anywhere with this
03:02:26 <calamari> what's 0.. luke-warm?
03:02:42 <WildHalcyon> I suppose, 0 would be neutral, like.. um... purgatory
03:02:46 <WildHalcyon> or Earth, even.
03:03:09 <lament> sounds interesting
03:03:20 <calamari> that'd be cool
03:03:23 <WildHalcyon> Essentially, each variable is an army, with the individual trits representing good/neutral/evil souls within the army
03:03:30 <calamari> especially once I get my 3-d graphics card working again
03:05:57 * calamari has been messing around with particles and gravity.. still working out how to do the math
03:06:12 <calamari> I have an idea, just can't seem to make the final connections
03:06:55 <WildHalcyon> Thats where Im at with my normal esolang, which is much less esoteric, much more practical
03:06:58 <calamari> F=G*m1*m2/r^2, resulting force = sum of force vectors acting on the object
03:07:18 <WildHalcyon> Right?
03:08:11 <calamari> oh wait.. tan angle = opp / adj, iirc
03:08:42 <calamari> yep.. figured it out then :)
03:08:55 <WildHalcyon> yup
03:09:02 <WildHalcyon> Oh, hmm... alright
03:09:19 <calamari> been too long since physics class
03:09:54 <WildHalcyon> I vaguely remember physics, with my hippie professor. Man, that was crazy
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04:50:44 <WildHalcyon> Hmm
04:50:53 <WildHalcyon> well.. welcome back doppelganger
04:51:10 <calamari_> hi WildHalcyon :)
04:51:19 <WildHalcyon> Ive been reading some slashdot on ternary computing. Man... they get defensive!
04:51:51 * calamari_ has particles wiggling around (no physics yet, random walk) but some kind of bug makes it reset or something every few seconds
04:52:16 <WildHalcyon> So... what exactly does it... ermm.. what is it supposed to do?
04:52:21 <calamari_> wonder if the garbage collector is doing it
04:52:42 <calamari_> I wanted to apply gravity forces to the particles and see what happened
04:53:04 <calamari_> just simple curiousity
04:53:39 <WildHalcyon> So, you have several particles, and they're all under gravitational forces from one another, correct?
04:54:21 <calamari_> not yet.. but yeah
04:54:30 <calamari_> so initially they have 0 velocity and 0 accel
04:54:33 <WildHalcyon> I hate GC
04:55:23 <calamari_> but as the forces are applies they should start moving around :)
04:56:06 <calamari_> I was thinking that if two particles collided I would make it an inelastic collision
04:56:25 <calamari_> then the new mass would be the sum of the two old masses
04:56:35 <WildHalcyon> It should, unless you're providing some kind of repelling force
04:57:14 <calamari_> anyhow.. it's weird that it is doing this resetting thing
04:57:48 <WildHalcyon> What do you mean by "resetting" ?
04:58:40 <calamari_> the dots will be wiggling around, then all the sudden they will all be in totally different places and there will be less of them
04:59:05 <WildHalcyon> Oh.. yeah, thats resettin' all right
04:59:17 <WildHalcyon> Is there some kind of counter overflow?
04:59:47 <calamari_> hmm interesting.. doesn't seem to happen if I Thread.sleep() with a high enough value
05:01:04 <WildHalcyon> Anyhow, Ive got class tomorrow, so Im outta here for the night ;-)
05:01:05 <calamari_> not really using counters.. using an iterator to go through the particles
05:01:10 <calamari_> cya WildHalcyon
05:01:18 <WildHalcyon> later!
05:01:24 -!- WildHalcyon has left (?).
05:03:12 <calamari_> hahahaha.. I know what's wrong.. dumb dumb dumb
05:03:45 <calamari_> not thread safe :)
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07:48:31 <WildHalcyon> Anyone still up? I ended up doing the non-sleep thing
07:50:55 <calamari_> hi
07:50:59 <WildHalcyon> Hey!
07:51:06 <calamari_> what about class?
07:51:23 <WildHalcyon> I know..
07:52:11 <WildHalcyon> I have a problem with insomnia occassionally. I tend to think too much, or something.
07:52:15 * WildHalcyon is thinking
07:53:07 <calamari_> I have a similar problem if I go to bed just after programming something
07:53:41 <calamari_> I mgiht sleep, but badly.. usually filled with "nightmares" such as trying to figure something complicated out but never being able to
07:54:00 <calamari_> or having to remember something
07:54:06 <WildHalcyon> lol, programming nightmares? That sounds like... hmm.. programming
07:54:14 <calamari_> (which never seems to be useful once I wake up)
07:55:00 <calamari_> reading slashdot or sites like imdb usually seems to cure it
07:57:23 <calamari_> found a neat linux program called planets.. better than the program I was hoping to write
07:57:36 <WildHalcyon> well, there we go!
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08:02:06 <WildHalcyon> I finished the prelim spec on my language: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL.txt
08:02:13 <WildHalcyon> its in alpha development :-D
08:03:45 <calamari_> what class did you have?
08:04:39 <WildHalcyon> Genetics, not a terribly difficult class
08:05:02 <WildHalcyon> But I should probably show up in the hopes of getting a karmic reward or something
08:23:04 <WildHalcyon> Alright, Im gonna give sleep another go
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08:26:53 <calamari> re
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11:50:52 <jix> moin moin
13:52:59 -!- int-e has joined.
14:29:23 <jix> moin int-e
14:29:29 <int-e> Hi
14:29:45 <jix> bbl
15:07:40 <jix> /back
15:07:50 <jix> GregorR: ping
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16:18:53 <Kmkr> 'ello
16:19:25 <Kmkr> can anyone summary the past days logs in few words?
16:38:27 <int-e> mostly harmless.
16:41:08 <Kmkr> ah
16:41:10 <Kmkr> :)
16:45:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:46:28 <Kmkr> hmmm this CRAWL seems interesting
16:48:48 * GregorR stumbles across the desert, bleeding from the ping wound through his shoulder.
16:49:11 * GregorR collapses, no longer able to stay conscious because of blood lost from his ping wound.
16:49:26 <jix> hrhr
16:49:41 <Kmkr> hi
16:50:43 <GregorR> Hmm, jix has a vowel in the name but none in the message, Kmkr has a vowel in the message but none in the name :P
16:52:25 <Kmkr> NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
16:52:37 <Kmkr> it can't be coincidence
16:55:21 <Kmkr> grh.. no time to do anything.. back to reading..
16:55:42 * Kmkr 's head explodes.
16:55:45 -!- Kmkr has quit ("I've seen this dj vu before..").
16:56:03 <jix> his head exploded.
17:10:34 <GregorR> These things happen *shrugs*
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18:14:20 <Keymaker> back again.. enough of reading :p
18:18:58 <int-e> well, your head exploded
18:19:15 <Keymaker> yes
18:19:27 <int-e> that's a good point to stop reading ;)
18:19:34 <Keymaker> ah
18:33:32 <Gs30ng> that's why we need multiple head
18:33:36 <Gs30ng> democracy or something
18:33:56 <Keymaker> hehe
18:49:11 <Keymaker> mh
18:50:24 <Keymaker> [insert several angry animal voices here]
19:40:51 <Keymaker> [insert several happy animal voices here]
19:46:40 <GregorR> lol
19:46:52 <GregorR> [insert several in-heat animal voices here]
19:48:12 <Keymaker> aarhhg z]
20:01:56 <Keymaker> bye
20:02:12 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
20:34:57 <Gs30ng> HURRAH FOR ALL THE ESOLANG!!!!!!
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21:52:17 * GregorR hands cpressey a case of terminals, plus a few pseudoterminals and xterms.
21:52:36 <jix> haha
21:53:09 <GregorR> He seems to be losing them awfully fast, figured he could use them more than I could *shrugs*
21:53:12 * int-e hopes GregorR left a hole for pizza delivery
21:54:06 * Gs30ng is now stuck in it
21:56:52 <Gs30ng> i think that terminal means some kind of examination and cpressey lost it, like, failed or something
21:57:28 <Gs30ng> GregorR would rather give him some advice to be a copycat rather than more terminals
22:06:11 <cpressey> thank you, GregorR.
22:06:20 <cpressey> it could have been worse... my connection could be been refused by peer
22:06:36 <cpressey> or, perish the thought, there might have been no route to host
22:08:37 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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22:10:27 <lament> or, in the worst case imaginable, your client could have quit
22:10:57 <Gs30ng> or NASA guys again
22:15:40 -!- calamari has joined.
22:15:48 <calamari> hi
22:15:56 <jix> moin calamari
22:17:05 <Gs30ng> i always feel a bit weird when i see that moin of jix... in my hometown language moin means 'grouped' or 'congregated'
22:17:15 <Gs30ng> so it goes 'grouped calamari'
22:17:33 <lament> in my language moin means "I hope you die"
22:18:56 <jix> lament: lol
22:18:57 <calamari> hi jix, grouped Gs30ng :)
22:19:07 <calamari> moin lament ;)
22:19:30 <Gs30ng> lol
22:22:14 <calamari> afk
22:22:20 <jix> GregorR: how's your mud going?
22:24:43 <calamari> he's doing a game too?
22:24:59 <Gs30ng> he's designing an engine
22:25:11 <Gs30ng> mud engine, i heard
22:25:29 <Gs30ng> unfortunately not in esolang
22:25:35 <jix> calamari: yes but not for the contests afaik
22:25:36 <Gs30ng> but in C++
22:25:38 <calamari> was just about to ask... :)
22:26:04 <pgimeno> again, what kind of terminal did you lose, cpressey? a token? a literal? did you ever lose a non-terminal?
22:26:12 <jix> calamari: i need some weird computer for writing a textadv for it
22:26:23 <jix> and when i say weird i mean REALLY weird
22:26:37 <calamari> jix: abacus?
22:26:41 <jix> maybe cosmac elf works
22:26:48 <jix> but the screen is that lowres
22:26:58 <jix> 64x128 (yes 68x 128y)
22:27:11 <jix> and on a real tv screen it doesn't show the full area afaik
22:27:26 <calamari> ;) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/images/misc/bfcomp.jpg
22:27:28 <jix> and i don't know what part of the area is displayed
22:27:37 <jix> hrhr
22:28:09 <Gs30ng> where's the space to insert the code
22:28:09 <pgimeno> oh that's not lowres; ZX-81 had 64x44
22:28:26 <jix> pgimeno: pixel in bw?
22:28:28 <pgimeno> has, even (I have one handy)
22:28:31 <pgimeno> yep
22:28:36 <jix> wow
22:28:47 <jix> ok tiny elf has to work
22:28:55 <calamari> I can't remember what channel f had
22:28:55 <pgimeno> it's actually a semi-graphic character (the screen is 32x22)
22:29:14 <jix> the good thing 1802 asm is really short
22:29:44 <calamari> 128x64.. wow.. advanced :)
22:29:47 <jix> all instructions are 1 byte (but may take a 1byte value/adress or 2 byte adress)
22:29:54 <jix> calamari: wait
22:29:58 <jix> 64x128
22:30:10 <jix> that's really stupid that its 64x128 instead of 128x64
22:30:39 <calamari> the thing about the channel f is that the games looked and sounded pretty bad.. but they were fun!
22:30:45 <pgimeno> then it's pretty much the same as Z80, except the Z80 has some prefixes to extend the instruction set
22:31:08 <jix> pgimeno: but z80 has not 16 16bit registers
22:31:28 <jix> oh and whenever you play one of GregorR's muds never type pwnd.. that kill's you
22:31:28 <pgimeno> indeed, it has just 9 IIRC
22:31:43 <jix> and the z80 can't use ANY of them as IP
22:32:26 <pgimeno> right (oh well, I didn't count PC, IR, AF or AF')
22:32:33 <jix> and the z80 isn't in the voyager (satellite )
22:32:43 <jix> i didn't count the 8bit accumulator
22:32:47 <pgimeno> but it's in the good ol' Speccy :P
22:32:50 <jix> and the 4bit X and P register
22:32:58 <jix> and the 8 bit T register
22:32:58 <calamari> maybe your own computer out of transistors
22:33:07 <jix> calamari: thought about that
22:33:20 <pgimeno> 4bit registers? funny
22:33:21 <jix> but i'd prefer a fpga it's easier..
22:33:27 <jix> pgimeno: they are register pointers
22:33:28 <pgimeno> that DOES make it superior
22:33:37 <jix> they point to one of the 16 16bit registers
22:33:43 <jix> P points to the IP
22:34:02 <jix> and X points to the register used for memory addressing for many instructions
22:34:16 <jix> and you can set X using the SEt X instruction .. short: SEX
22:34:32 <pgimeno> yeah, I've read it in the backlog :)
22:34:37 <calamari> I once programmed an asm that had the SEX instr
22:34:55 <calamari> it was pretty nice.. had 16 registers r0 to r15
22:35:07 <jix> calamari: maybe it was 1802
22:35:10 <calamari> can't remember the chip model
22:35:36 <jix> 1802 is a cpu from the 70s
22:35:53 <calamari> this was the 90's, maybe a decendant of the 1802
22:36:07 <jix> there are two decendants
22:36:19 <jix> and they were 70s too i think
22:36:33 <jix> they weren't very popular..
22:36:39 <jix> but they are COOL
22:36:39 <calamari> the only reason to use a chip that old is if it was cheap
22:36:54 <jix> it was cheap to that time too
22:37:11 <jix> the cosmac elf was a build it yourself computer for only 100$
22:37:29 <calamari> or you can build a cpu from other logic chips
22:37:29 <jix> altair cost like 1000$ afaik
22:38:15 <jix> many phone line powered devices used? the 1802
22:38:36 <jix> because it has no minimum frequency and could work slow but without consuming much power
22:38:44 <calamari> cool
22:38:52 <jix> and they were manufactured silicon on sapphire too
22:39:06 <jix> (thats why they used it in satellites)
22:39:14 <calamari> that'd be perfect for the whole programmable watch thing
22:39:33 <jix> maybe they are too slow
22:39:49 <calamari> can't be THAT slow
22:39:51 <jix> and with today technologies it would be possible to design a low power cpu that is much faster than the 1802
22:40:00 <jix> calamari: you have to slow it down to safe power
22:40:04 <calamari> can fpga's be low power?
22:40:12 <jix> calamari: don't think so
22:40:54 <jix> they need more gates for simulating a gates => they need more power
22:41:07 <jix> and they are bigger than normal ICs
22:41:15 <jix> and i know how they work
22:41:21 <jix> they use LUTs for EVERYTHING
22:41:37 <jix> that's why it's inefficient to design a fpga logic gate by gate
22:41:48 <jix> verylog => 4bit LUTs is more efficient
22:41:52 <jix> or VHDL
22:43:05 * jix is writing a 1802 assembler because the one he has SUCKS
22:43:28 <pgimeno> isn't there a table-driven assembler for Linux?
22:43:33 <pgimeno> like TASM for DOS
22:43:36 <calamari> hmm just reading about the 1802.. couldn't have been my old cpu, as I remember being able to call subroutines
22:43:56 <calamari> pgimeno: there's tasm for linux too
22:43:58 <jix> calamari: you can call subroutines just branch to them using another IP
22:44:01 <pgimeno> oh, nice
22:44:07 <jix> and return by using the old IP
22:44:21 <calamari> yeah, I have the registered version of tasm and the guy is still supporting it
22:44:50 <pgimeno> ah, no wonder it's not in Debian
22:45:06 <calamari> yeah, it's shareware..
22:45:56 <calamari> I use it for 6502
22:46:07 <jix> i use cc65 for 6502 comes with an asm
22:46:12 <jix> i don't use it
22:46:14 <jix> but i have it installed
22:46:32 <pgimeno> jix: you said x86 asm was ugly?
22:46:39 <jix> pgimeno: imo it is
22:46:52 <pgimeno> that's because you haven't tried AT&T's assembler
22:46:56 <jix> i just hate ju?mp
22:46:57 <pgimeno> assembly, even
22:47:08 <jix> i want branch not jump
22:47:44 <calamari> bra
22:48:08 <pgimeno> it's kind of weird... an inconditional jump is not a branching in the flow graph
22:48:11 <calamari> actually, that instruction doesn't exist on the 6502's in the old atari's
22:48:30 <jix> calamari: branch-relative-absolute? that makes no sense
22:48:38 <calamari> bra branch always
22:48:48 <jix> bla makes sense thats branch-link-absolute
22:48:50 <calamari> it was a 1-byte relative branch
22:48:54 <jix> valid ppc instruction
22:49:09 <pgimeno> I want an assembly language where the instruction that changes PC is called GOTO :P
22:49:18 <jix> pgimeno: uh
22:49:19 <calamari> so instead of using 3 bytes for a jump, you could do it in 2 if it was short range
22:49:31 <pgimeno> just to bug jix
22:49:35 <jix> i just like to write b because it's shorter than jump
22:49:47 <int-e> it's jmp
22:49:52 <int-e> ;)
22:49:55 <jix> int-e: b is still shorter
22:50:01 <jix> or on the 1802 br
22:50:15 <jix> calamari: br is 1 byte adressing
22:50:18 <int-e> I know. And it does not matter. je is shorter than beq ;-)
22:50:34 <jix> int-e: k...
22:50:41 <jix> i just don't like jump
22:50:46 <jix> dunno why
22:50:47 <pgimeno> the only problem of jmp is that j and m are both typed with the same finger
22:50:48 <calamari> jz :)
22:50:50 <int-e> that's ok.
22:51:00 <int-e> jz, je, same thing.
22:51:05 <jix> pgimeno: no jmp is typed using 3 finger
22:51:13 <jix> I type it with 3 fingers
22:51:19 * calamari doesn't touch type....
22:51:47 <jix> i dont use a this finger that key.. i just use a finger that is free and near to that key
22:51:50 <calamari> probably why I'm so slow.. hunt & peck with years of experience
22:52:04 <int-e> I know exactly what you're talking about.
22:52:14 <calamari> it was freaky when I realized I could do it without looking
22:52:17 <jix> i never "learned" how to type i just did it
22:52:36 <jix> calamari: i started typing on keyboards in the kindergarden
22:52:44 <pgimeno> btw, in Z80 they're jr (relative), jp (absolute)
22:53:01 <calamari> afk
22:53:07 <pgimeno> and speaking of SEX...
22:53:34 <pgimeno> the Z80 has no SEX but has STI which is an ultra-high level instruction (that's what is left when you take the 'E' out of 'SETI')
22:53:44 <pgimeno> usually it finds none so it just sets the interrupt flag and goes on, disappointed
22:54:04 <jix> haha
22:54:22 <jix> and it's not SeT Interrupt?
22:54:45 <pgimeno> oh, maybe that's it and I've been wrong all this time!
22:54:53 <jix> no...
22:55:00 <jix> i don't think it's SeT Interrupt
22:55:27 <jix> that's unlikely.. i think it's the SETI thing
22:55:47 <pgimeno> anyway it's strange because it doesn't even find me :P
22:55:58 <jix> mnemonic quiz is fun
22:56:10 <jix> a easy one: ldi
22:56:14 <int-e> wbinvd
22:56:23 <jix> int-e: no idea
22:56:26 <pgimeno> in Z80? load, increment
22:56:28 <int-e> jix, z80, load index register.
22:56:31 <int-e> oh
22:56:34 <int-e> ikh
22:56:36 <int-e> eek
22:56:44 <int-e> wbinv is 'write back and invalidate cache'
22:56:48 <int-e> 486 ;)
22:56:54 <jix> on 1802 LoaD Immediate
22:56:56 <calamari> jix: know of any other cpu's that can accept any clock speed?
22:57:06 <jix> calamari: they have an upper limit
22:57:11 <jix> but not a lower
22:57:18 <calamari> sorry.. I meant slower
22:57:19 <jix> and afaik arm is able to run at a few khz
22:57:26 <pgimeno> oh, didn't remember about wbinvd
22:57:34 <jix> the iPod mini 2nd generation uses it to safe power
22:57:45 <jix> always uses minimal clock speed needed
22:57:51 <int-e> it was the most obscure instruction in the x86 reference guide that came with borland pascal
22:58:01 <pgimeno> 32KHz crystals are (were? I'm not very up-to-date with this) usually found in wrist watches
22:58:36 <jix> implementing brainfuck using transistors could be fun
22:58:36 <int-e> fclex was neat, too
22:59:00 <pgimeno> argh
22:59:14 <pgimeno> it ligths a bulb somewhere but everything is diffuse
22:59:29 <int-e> oh, and some really useful instructions, one of them being btr
22:59:44 <pgimeno> ah, that one I remember :) bit test right
22:59:44 <int-e> fclex: fpu clear exception. btr: bit test and reset.
22:59:51 <pgimeno> argh
22:59:57 <pgimeno> had the last word wrong
23:00:04 <calamari> jix: I'd probably implement a bf variant where [ and ] are combined into a conditional jump instruction
23:00:29 <GregorR> I'm thinking of writing a MISC VM.
23:00:40 <calamari> that'd be even easier
23:00:52 <calamari> wonder how many transistors misc would take
23:01:12 <int-e> the obscure thing about btr (and bt and bts) is that when used with a memory operand, btr [bx+di], bp , you can actually address 8kb of memory, bitwise.
23:01:15 <GregorR> Time for a gcc/binutils backend, then there'll be pressure to make one ;)
23:01:20 <pgimeno> I can still type Z80 code in decimal in DATA lines but I can't remember the damn 486+ instruction set
23:01:43 <pgimeno> I confused it with BSR (bit scan reverse)
23:01:45 <int-e> (and 0.5 GB in 32 bit mode)
23:01:51 <int-e> pgimeno, ah!
23:01:55 <int-e> and bsf :)
23:02:52 <pgimeno> (I never used these instructions; I wanted to keep 386 compatibility back then when I wrote assembly code)
23:03:15 <calamari> I never learned em.. all my x86 programs are 8088 compatible :)
23:03:38 <int-e> uhm, bt* and bs* do work on i386
23:04:02 <pgimeno> they do? oh O:)
23:04:58 <pgimeno> then it's probably because I never managed to fully learn the new instructions when I switched to the 386
23:05:24 <pgimeno> the timings were weird IIRC
23:05:35 <int-e> afaik only bswap and cmpxchg were new on the 486, and the builtin FPU.
23:05:36 * pgimeno is aging and forgetful
23:06:32 <calamari> how old is aging?
23:06:40 <int-e> aging is permanent
23:06:42 <calamari> lol
23:07:24 <int-e> depending on your definition you might stop aging when you die.
23:07:58 <pgimeno> I'm 38 fwiw
23:08:40 <int-e> ok, you're old. are you happy now?
23:08:44 * int-e grins mischieviously.
23:08:57 <pgimeno> hehe, yes, thanks :)
23:11:16 <calamari> yay.. I'm young! :)
23:13:45 <jix> i'm young
23:14:06 * jix is 14 years old
23:14:53 <pgimeno> how old are you, calamari?
23:16:02 * int-e is 27
23:16:10 <jix> pgimeno: you are 2,71 times as old as i am
23:18:07 <calamari> 27
23:18:30 <calamari> was afk looking at cpu's on digikey hehe
23:19:20 <lament> pgimeno is e times older than jix?
23:19:21 <lament> wow
23:19:27 <lament> pgimeno: you're fricking OLD
23:19:34 <pgimeno> hahaha
23:19:42 <int-e> try ancient ;)
23:19:53 <pgimeno> argh
23:20:07 <pgimeno> :)
23:20:48 <calamari> I think I
23:21:02 <calamari> 'll feel older pretty quickly in Feb
23:21:16 <calamari> that's when the baby's due :)
23:22:14 <lament> ooh
23:22:17 <pgimeno> wooo
23:22:35 <pgimeno> congrats calamari :)
23:22:37 <calamari> thanks
23:25:29 <pgimeno> he will hopefully not be UNBABTIZED or SON OF UNBABTIZED
23:25:59 <calamari> not son of unbabtized
23:26:08 <calamari> but unbabtized until at least 8 :)
23:26:48 <pgimeno> er, that joke didn't mean to have any religious implications :)
23:27:00 <calamari> pgimeno: I know.. :)
23:27:13 <Gs30ng> is it sure that he is 'he'?
23:27:19 <calamari> nope
23:27:53 <Gs30ng> then he/she could be kinda DAUGHTER OF UNBABTIZED
23:28:02 <calamari> could have found out last time, but we went to a new clinic and they had horrible resolution on their scanner
23:29:28 <Gs30ng> well it's Aug 2005 yet... due is Feb 2006, right?
23:29:54 <calamari> yeah
23:35:28 <calamari> hmm, looks like 386/486 have a static design too
23:37:39 <GregorR> Well ... that MISC VM was way too easy.
23:37:52 <GregorR> (Although I had to contend with little-endianness)
23:38:23 <jix> GregorR: MISC VM?
23:38:44 <jix> little-endiann is stupid
23:39:05 <jix> what is misc vm?
23:39:33 <GregorR> See http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/MISC (unless I just mislinked you)
23:41:00 <jix> any hw implementations with memmory mapped IO?
23:41:43 <jix> shouldn't be that hard
23:43:20 <GregorR> AFAIK there aren't any hardware implementations :P
23:43:47 <jix> my brother has an fpga i could use but i have no computer to program the fpga
23:49:00 <pgimeno> hm, IMO the MISC turing completeness proof is flawed in the sense that MISC-16 uses bounded memory
23:50:57 <int-e> well, assume unlimited memory cells then
23:51:52 <pgimeno> in that case it's not MISC-16 and the proof is not valid
23:52:18 <pgimeno> plus, what's two's complement of 1 in unlimited arithmetic?
23:52:42 <int-e> -2
23:52:59 <pgimeno> is MISC signed?
23:53:30 <int-e> MISC works in a finite field
23:53:45 <int-e> err. ring or group
23:56:26 <pgimeno> that kind of reminds me of a Daily WTF entry which read like: var += -1;
23:56:44 <GregorR> MISC is signed, it's clearly not turing complete but it's turing-complete-within-the-construct-of-reality.
23:57:15 <calamari> I think there was a category for that
23:57:20 <GregorR> (IE, you could make a one-instruction instruction set that was turing complete, but you couldn't make a real computer to use it, so who cares)
23:57:54 <pgimeno> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine
23:57:58 <pgimeno> that was it
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