←2007-10-02 2007-10-03 2007-10-04→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:07:59 <SimonRC> zzzzzzz
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00:24:39 <bsmntbombdood> bah, flag desacration is illegal in colorado
00:34:08 <GregorR> Feels weird to remove a hard disk from an old computer, plug it into my computer and then boot it in QEmu :P
00:34:17 <GregorR> Seems sort of insulting to the real computer when it runs faster in QEmu X-D
00:41:50 <RodgerTheGreat> BrainGentlyCaress
00:48:17 * pikhq pisses on a flag, taking advantage of the federal law superseding state law in that instance
00:49:08 <bsmntbombdood> hooray constitution
00:49:20 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: We can recompile it... we have the technology. Stronger, faster, better than before.
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00:51:55 * pikhq starts playing "harder better faster stronger"
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00:52:42 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Around The World / Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger by Daft Punk from Coachella 2006
00:53:08 <pikhq> :)
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00:53:36 <RodgerTheGreat> 'tis the music that great programming is made of
00:54:06 * bsmntbombdood is listening to The Gathering / Infected Mushroom
00:56:43 <lament> that's music great acid trips are made of
00:58:01 <RodgerTheGreat> haha. I have witnessed forum brilliance.
00:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> a guy named "With Your Ass" posted a thread asking suggestions for removing shards of a broken beer bottle from his backpack entitled "How do I get tiny glass shards out of my sack?"
00:59:39 <bsmntbombdood> putting it in the dryer probably
01:00:00 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. That might actually work.
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01:01:20 <RodgerTheGreat> most people are suggesting duct-tape
01:02:04 <bsmntbombdood> that won't get the stuff embedded in the fabric
01:02:58 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- I think a dryer is the best idea I could think of
01:03:03 <bsmntbombdood> it would really suck to get tiny glass shards in your sack though
01:03:06 <RodgerTheGreat> do you have experience with this sort of thing?
01:03:11 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, no kidding
01:03:46 <bsmntbombdood> i bet it would get infected
01:04:01 <RodgerTheGreat> worse than glass shards: fiberglass
01:04:07 <RodgerTheGreat> imagine the rash. :S
01:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> a la http://wiki.bmezine.com/index.php/Scrotal_infection (nsfw)
01:04:34 <RodgerTheGreat> eeew
01:04:40 <RodgerTheGreat> but yes
01:08:06 <RodgerTheGreat> out of morbid curiosity, did you just type "infected scrotum" into google for that thing?
01:08:48 <bsmntbombdood> no, i've read that article before
01:09:16 <bsmntbombdood> although that is the first result
01:09:18 <bsmntbombdood> OH MY GOD
01:09:30 <bsmntbombdood> look at the images
01:09:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I don' wanna. D:>
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01:13:06 <bsmntbombdood> "A Case Of Multiple Sebaceous Cysts Over Scrotum In A 35 Years Old Male"
01:14:22 <bsmntbombdood> that is just about the grossest thing ever
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03:44:22 * bsmntbombdood is listening to Pink Floyd - The Final Cut
03:53:55 * pikhq approves
03:55:55 <bsmntbombdood> i'm not sure i like
03:55:57 <bsmntbombdood> too uniform
04:00:47 <pikhq> Not listened to that album, so my approval is of the band. . .
04:00:52 <bsmntbombdood> ok
04:01:05 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Emotion 98.6 by Mylo from Destroy Rock & Roll
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06:41:38 <GregorR> I made macros to make functions/calling easier in MISC :)
06:42:38 <GregorR> (cpp macros that is)
06:52:00 <GregorR> Now, I just need a backend for GCC ...
06:52:02 <GregorR> :P
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07:54:06 <GregorR> I have macros for MUL/DIV/MOD now :)
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10:26:05 <ais523> I'm annoyed at regular expressions not having enough computational class to do everything I want them to do
10:26:33 <ais523> for instance, several times I'd have found it useful to have a regexp that matches a string with matched parentheses
10:26:52 <ais523> so I'm working on a Turing-complete enhanced-regexp language
10:28:37 <Arrogant> Perl 6 rules look pretty cool.
10:29:01 <ais523> I haven't seen them
10:29:03 <ehird`> ais523: why
10:29:06 <ehird`> perl 5 regexps are TC
10:29:16 <ais523> only by embedding Perl into them, I think
10:29:39 <ehird`> really?
10:29:41 <ehird`> i dont think so
10:29:49 <ehird`> i seem to remember with some bizzare hacks you can make it TC
10:29:54 <ehird`> e.g., that regexp that can solve sudoku
10:29:57 <ehird`> uses no perl
10:30:33 <ais523> in my language, I can write (\($+\)|'^\(\)'|) and get an expression that matches only strings with matched parens
10:30:37 <ais523> how is that done in Perl?
10:30:55 <ais523> (the $+ means 'match a copy of the containing group')
10:30:58 <ehird`> i do not actually know, sorry#
10:31:03 <ehird`> but i have heard a few times that they are TC
10:31:40 <ehird`> http://perl.abigail.be/Talks/Sudoku/HTML
10:32:28 <ais523> also, I have things like (a*)b*:-c*:- to solve the famous n as, n bs, n cs problem, which I think is considerably shorter than the corresponding BF program
10:33:48 <ais523> by the way, a non-TC program can solve Sudoku
10:33:56 <ais523> (in theory, you could do it with a lookup table)
10:35:08 <ehird`> well
10:35:10 <ehird`> take a look at the examples
10:35:13 <ehird`> i sure don't grok them,
10:35:19 <ehird`> but i don't think they're using a lookup table
10:35:36 <ais523> no, they're just placing a huge number of constraints on the problem
10:35:45 <ehird`> hm
10:35:49 <ehird`> so it isn't tc
10:36:11 <ais523> traditional regular expressions can be compiled into a finite-state machine
10:36:19 <ehird`> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KCL&q=perl+5+regular+expressions+turing+complete&btnG=Search&meta= Perhaps you will find something here.
10:36:20 <ehird`> and
10:36:25 <ehird`> perl 5 regexps are not traditional
10:36:32 <ais523> I don't think Perl regular expressions are any better in that respect, but I don't know
10:45:06 * ais523 is reading through the Google results, and so far has found a lot of people disagreeing with each other
11:00:31 <SimonRC> mathematical regexs can be compiled into FSMs -- I studied it at Uni
11:02:18 <ais523> I'm reading through Perl5 and Perl6 regex syntax
11:02:38 <ais523> Perl5 allows ?{} (embed Perl code), which obviously makes it TC, but that's cheating
11:03:29 <ais523> it also allows ??{} (defered evaluation), which can be used to execute arbitrary Perl or which can be used to create a context-free grammar
11:03:35 <ais523> I'm not sure if using that is cheating
11:04:07 <ais523> Perl6's regexes are like Perl5s, but re-written to be more verbose and 'readable' to beginning programmers
11:04:31 <ais523> if multiple 'rules' are given, it again creates a context-free grammar
11:04:54 <ais523> but I'm not sure if a context-free grammar can match (a*)b*:-c*:-
11:07:24 <ais523> it's interesting to see the parallel evolution of my regex language and Perl6's, though; for instance, they both contain constructs equivalent to Prolog's 'cut' and 'fail'
11:08:35 <ais523> ...and we both changed . to also match newlines
11:28:22 <ehird`> back
11:28:49 <ehird`> i might make a regexp-like language
11:29:04 <ehird`> i've always wanted for ?[\\$]%(.=&)/ to match something
11:29:12 <ehird`> s/for// (How ironic)
11:29:56 <ais523> what you wrote is a syntax error in my language, unfortunately (partly because I deliberately don't use square brackets for anything)
11:31:29 <ehird`> i've always wanted regexps that can match entire languages
11:31:30 <ehird`> ;)
11:31:46 <ehird`> a kind-of-regexp parser in one kind-of-regexp would be awesome!
11:31:49 <ais523> I was designing my regexp language partly for that purpose
11:32:02 <ehird`> why don't any regexp impls have nested regexp groups?
11:32:17 <ais523> what exactly do you mean by that
11:32:25 <ais523> s/$/\?/
11:32:29 <ehird`> (a) -> [['a']]
11:32:39 <ehird`> (a(b)) -> [['a', ['b']]]
11:32:43 <ehird`> see?
11:32:56 <ais523> what do the square brackets represent?
11:33:01 <ehird`> you could generate an entire parse tree, with some additional commands (like "don't nest", "pop out" etc)
11:33:02 <ehird`> and
11:33:04 <ehird`> arrays in the language
11:33:18 <ehird`> from a match_str(pattern, str)
11:33:29 <ais523> I think my language might be able to do that, but I can't remember the syntax offhand
11:33:32 <ehird`> so instead of (a) when given "a" returning ['a']
11:33:37 <ehird`> it'd return [['a']]
11:33:49 <ehird`> so, a match is a list of text and submatches
11:33:51 <ehird`> the root list is too
11:33:57 <ehird`> so, it's a parse tree, really
11:34:18 <ais523> it wouldn't do it by default, but you could write something like (a=\Ba\E)
11:34:21 <ehird`> if there is a way to say "append this to the result set, even if it is not in the string:", then you can parse an /entire language/ with one regexp0thing :D
11:34:28 <ais523> where \B and \E change into [ and ] in the output
11:34:32 <ehird`> no no no
11:34:42 <ehird`> pretend we are in a programming language
11:34:44 <ehird`> NOT the regexp language
11:34:48 <ehird`> [x,y,z] is an array
11:35:00 <ehird`> [[x, y, z], [a, b, c]] is an array with two arrays as elements
11:35:08 <ehird`> matching (a) on the string a would produce [['a']]
11:35:28 <ehird`> think of the result of matching as something like [$1, $2, $3...] in perl
11:35:31 <ais523> that's it: my regexp language outputs a set of nested arrays as its answer when \B and \E are used
11:35:44 <ehird`> except, $1, $2, etc. are ALSO match results
11:35:54 <ehird`> so just matching (a) on the strng 'a' gives [['a']]
11:36:01 <ais523> the = causes its LHS to be 'replaced' with its RHS in a vague sense
11:36:07 <ehird`> (a(b))c((d)e) on 'abcde' produces:
11:36:21 <ehird`> [['a', ['b']], [['d'], 'e']]
11:36:44 <ais523> so your output just mirrors the group syntax of the input?
11:37:48 <ehird`> kiiind of
11:37:55 <ehird`> except
11:38:11 <ehird`> there would be a modifier of some sort for () which says 'put this N levels upward in the tree' or 'pop out N levels'
11:38:16 <ehird`> or 'don't nest this match'
11:38:38 <ehird`> (a(b))c((d)e) in regular regexps in 'abcde' would be ['a', 'b', 'd', 'e'] which i do not think is nearly as useful for simple matching OR parsing
11:38:55 <ais523> something like you suggest can be done reasonably simply with Perl5 regexps
11:39:06 <ais523> you put an extra group around each section between groups, like this:
11:39:26 <ais523> ((a)((b)))(c)(((d))(e))
11:39:42 <ais523> and then you simply have a template to fill $ns into, like this:
11:39:53 <ehird`> sure, i know
11:39:58 <ehird`> but its not as convenient, imo
11:40:07 <ehird`> you could do everything your regexps do with perl's regexp eval feature
11:40:12 <ehird`> that doesn't mean it's useful to do it like that
11:40:34 <ais523> [[$2, [$4]], [[$8], $9]] (I'm going to finish writing this comment anyway, even though it's long after it's relevant)
11:40:52 <ais523> the point is you could write a program to automatically compile regexps like you suggest into the existing form
11:42:06 <ehird`> sure, but add the other features of my regexp stuff i have in my head
11:42:11 <ehird`> which you can't compile short of eval
11:43:37 <ais523> well, I like my language because I can do (\(($1)\)=\B=1\E|'^\(\)'|)
11:43:58 <ehird`> what does that do?
11:44:39 <ais523> if applied to the string (a(b))c((d)e) it would return [['a',['b']],'c',[['d'],'e']]
11:44:58 <ais523> in other words, it's parsing the brackets in the input string into the array notation of the language that you're using
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11:45:54 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure i could do similar
11:45:56 <ehird`> the nesting is not required
11:46:07 <ehird`> you can make a () pair not nest inline
11:46:10 <ais523> to be exact, you'd have to put =^ at the end if you were using this as part of a larger regexp, but the system adds that automatically if it's not given anywhere
11:46:13 <ehird`> and you can manually add nesting levels with it
11:46:18 <ehird`> and add/remove elements to them
11:46:26 <ehird`> so, mine can do what yours does too
11:46:41 <ais523> what would a regexp for doing that look like in your language?
11:48:10 <ehird`> i have no idea. i haven't written down my language yet.
11:48:13 <ehird`> i just have ideas for it.
11:48:17 <ehird`> that above would definately be possible though
11:49:24 * ais523 is still reading the Perl6 regexp syntax
11:51:53 <ais523> ehird`: it seems that Perl6 does hierarchical capturing through capture brackets like you were suggesting above
11:52:12 <ais523> (although it returns a nested hierarchy of Match objects rather than just arrays)
11:52:15 <ehird`> FUCK! I'm starting to think like Larry Wall.
11:52:23 <ehird`> arrays was kinda symbolic
11:52:31 <ehird`> the notation was a way to represent match data
11:53:40 <ais523> so given the regex ( a ( b ) ) c ( ( d ) e ) you would get an output in which $1[0] was "d" (because the matches are 0-based)
11:54:51 <ehird`> cool.
11:55:02 <ehird`> can you do nammed submatches?
11:55:18 <ais523> yes, in both Perl6 and my language
11:55:25 <ehird`> so, $r['g']['g2'] or similar
11:55:54 <ais523> I don't think the named submatches are hierarchical, but I admit I'm a bit confused trying to read the document in question
11:56:02 <ais523> http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S05.html
11:58:22 <ais523> so here's a problem: suppose you have an Unlambda expression, and you want to convert it to another expression in which the arguments to every ` have been swapped
11:58:29 <ais523> considering just s and k for simplicity,
11:59:19 <ais523> I would write this as (`($1)($1)=`=2=1|s|k)=^ (the =^ is optional if this is the whole regex)
11:59:33 <ais523> I wonder if it's possible to do anything like that in other regex languages?
11:59:37 <ehird`> bakc
11:59:39 <ehird`> *back
11:59:52 <ehird`> and hm
12:00:07 <ehird`> intuitively i think yes, but the regexp would be repetitive i think
12:00:10 <ehird`> also
12:00:19 <ehird`> another feature my regexps will have, is nested regexps
12:00:27 <ehird`> you can run other regexps on other strings, get their matches, etc
12:00:36 <ehird`> you can run a string as the regexp, even!
12:00:50 <ais523> I was planning something similar, but hadn't worked out all the syntax
12:00:53 <ehird`> strings of course include groups, replacements on groups, etc
12:01:21 <ais523> you could run a regexp on just what was matched by a group, even using that regexp to /change/ what that group matched from the point of view of the rest of the expression
12:01:39 <ais523> or you could take what was matched by a group as the regexp itself, or both (or neither)
12:03:52 <ehird`> exactly
12:03:53 <ehird`> same here
12:04:03 <ehird`> the possibilities are endless ;)
12:04:41 <ais523> 'what was matched by a group' is the closest my language has to variables, as it can be changed retroactively (without modifying the original string; there are other ways to do that)
12:07:39 <Tritonio> WD is GTP
12:07:47 <Tritonio> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
12:07:58 <SimonRC> ??
12:08:24 <Tritonio> problems with my hard drive
12:08:30 <Tritonio> the external one
12:08:35 <Tritonio> serious problems
12:09:15 <ais523> a good quote I just came across: 'we think the popular term "regex" is in the process of becoming a technical term with a precise meaning of: "something you do pattern matching with, kinda like a regular expression"'
12:09:22 <Tritonio> the funny thing is that before some days a friend of me found bad sectors in his disk which is the almost the same model with mine.
12:10:01 <Tritonio> is there a tool for surface scan in Linux?
12:11:56 <Tritonio> ?
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12:30:36 <ehird`> ais523: :)
12:30:45 <ehird`> my language will let you assign arbitary things to groups
12:30:59 <ais523> same here
12:31:01 <ehird`> so, combine the 'arbitary' and 'don't add to match results' modifiers,
12:31:02 <ehird`> and voila
12:31:02 <ehird`> variables
12:31:18 <ehird`> or, just use 'arbitary' to insert elements into various places in the match tree
12:31:22 <ais523> I assume there's some way to generate an infinite number of them
12:31:23 <ehird`> -> easy parsetree generation
12:31:36 <ais523> mine can, but only in a push-down way
12:32:28 <ehird`> turing complete parse-tree generation
12:32:30 <ehird`> bliss =)
12:32:38 <ehird`> no more fscking yacc or workalikes!
12:33:09 <ais523> it seems you, me and Perl6 all have the same aim here
12:33:33 <RodgerTheGreat> turing-complete parse tree generation? wow.
12:34:04 <ehird`> yes, RodgerTheGreat.
12:34:08 <ehird`> with regular-expression-alikes.
12:34:14 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
12:34:21 <ehird`> have i mown your blind sufficiently yet?
12:34:34 <ais523> one traditional problem in parsing a language: the construct (a, b):=(c, d) which assigns c to a and d to b exists in some languages
12:34:41 <ais523> it's very hard to write those semantics in BNF
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12:34:50 <molchuvka> why
12:35:14 <ais523> because there have to be the same number of variables on each side, and the first variable on the LHS maps to the first variable on the RHS
12:35:15 <molchuvka> in coco/r, it's straightforward to write this in EBNF
12:35:33 <molchuvka> ll(k) compiler compiler
12:35:39 <ehird`> coco/r is horrid though, so shush ;)
12:35:54 <ais523> the traditional solution was to accept any number on each side, and then check there were the same number on each side when translating the parse tree
12:35:56 <ehird`> ais523: good old a*nb*nc*n problem
12:36:09 <ais523> yes, just in a different form
12:36:24 <molchuvka> ehird`: please describe the word 'horrid', i dont have dictionary at hand
12:36:39 <ehird`> molchuvka: the fuel that powers the steam engine that creates nightmares
12:36:44 <ais523> the a^nb^n problem can be solved by a push-down, with an expression like (a$+b|) in my notation
12:36:51 <ais523> but it matches the last a with the first b
12:37:54 <ehird`> i wonder...
12:38:04 <ehird`> since these re-alikes are turing complete
12:38:18 <ehird`> and with mine at least, you can parse a full language into a parse-tree with only one single re-alikes
12:38:23 <ehird`> what expression parses perl 5?
12:38:52 <ais523> Perl6 apparently has a built-in expression for parsing perl6; it's a constant that's just defined by the language
12:39:04 <ais523> an expression to parse perl5 would take a while to write, I expect
12:39:28 <ais523> but it would be useful because I've never seen a really good Perl syntax highlighter (that can handle regexps and the weird quoting syntax)
12:40:07 <ehird`> damn, just think how complex it would be
12:40:19 <ehird`> you'd be utilizing turing complete hacks all over the place to be 100% correct
12:40:53 <ehird`> for convenience i think my regexp language will include a special quine "variable" (group) that is just the string of the expression it is contained it
12:40:55 <ehird`> *in
12:41:02 <ehird`> this, incidentally, makes a quine very trivial :P
12:41:15 <ais523> well, the null string's a quine in mine
12:41:23 <ehird`> heh
12:41:30 * ais523 tries to thing of a quine in their language that's at least one byte long
12:41:30 <ehird`> i can just imagine the docs for my quine
12:41:42 <ehird`> "This expression matches nothing into itself."
12:41:50 <ehird`> actually, anything
12:42:00 <ehird`> "This expression matches anything into itself."
12:42:41 <ehird`> you know, my regexp language will probably be really hard to parse (even in itself) and a mammoth task to implement
12:42:55 <ais523> I'm having serious problems trying to implement mine
12:43:09 <ais523> I'm writing the docs first and although they're unfinished, they're already several pages long
12:43:38 <ehird`> I do not think I will bother implementing mine, from the features I have in mind it'd be a project on the level of full-scale open source projects
12:43:57 <ehird`> Maybe if someone offers some help after I write a spec. :-)
12:44:21 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps you should focus on a simpler proof-of-concept
12:44:37 <ehird`> no, i want my amazingerific expressions in full ;)
12:45:06 <RodgerTheGreat> heh. Or design an esolang that requires this feature in order to achieve turing-completeness.
12:45:29 <ehird`> that's simple
12:45:45 <ehird`> just make a program input and a regular expression
12:46:00 <ehird`> since they can perform turing complete calculations, voila
12:46:15 <ehird`> the match tree would be the output of the program
12:46:49 <ehird`> in fact you don't even need an input string
12:46:52 <ehird`> (it could just be empty)
12:47:01 <ehird`> since you can assign arbitary values to groups, and run regexps on groups
12:47:02 <ais523> mine can generate output off no input at all, because it has features for inserting text into the input string
12:47:03 <ehird`> etc
12:47:22 <ehird`> ais523: mine can do that but only because you can explicitly modify and generate matches in the match tree
12:47:49 <ais523> in mine, you can write (Hello\, world\!)^ to add Hello, world! to the input string
12:48:04 <ais523> where the ^ 'negates' the preceding group
12:48:13 <ais523> it has many more interesting uses as well
12:48:58 <ehird`> ais523: can yours be used to parse an entire language in one expression?
12:49:03 <ehird`> within reason that is, not using tons of TC-hackery
12:49:10 <ais523> yes, pretty easily
12:49:13 <ehird`> because from what i have in my head mine could do that very easily and naturally
12:49:18 <ehird`> as in, not a hack a tall
12:49:21 <ehird`> just natural common usage
12:49:24 <ehird`> which i think is cool
12:49:33 <ehird`> PARSER constant in a language = XD
12:49:34 <ais523> I have an = command that's not actually necessary, but makes such expressions more readable
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12:50:13 <ehird`> i think mine will have "and" and "or" constructs
12:50:32 <ais523> it depends on what you mean by 'and'
12:50:45 <ehird`> i.e. "if this (X) matches, then this (Y) must too, otherwise there is no match"
12:50:56 <ais523> if you're just checking variables, you write the checks one after the other (possibly with a cut) and you get a short-circuit match
12:51:07 <ehird`> or, "if (X) does not match, but (Y) does, there is a match"
12:51:13 <ais523> Perl6 has a 'two or more matches that must start and end at the same place construct'
12:51:15 <ehird`> and by x and y i mean two groups of some sort
12:51:31 <ais523> as for or, that's just the (a|b) construct that's been in every regex language ever AFAIK
12:52:00 <ehird`> sure
12:52:05 <ehird`> but this could handle more complex constructs
12:52:13 <ehird`> and so can or
12:52:22 <ehird`> so it makes sense to ditch (a|b) and get the new syntax
12:52:27 <ehird`> actually, the syntax may be the same
12:52:28 <ehird`> who knows?
12:52:31 <ehird`> but it'll behave different
12:52:35 <ais523> the syntax is the same in my language
12:52:45 <ais523> and it behaves the same way, for esoteric values of 'same'
12:53:23 <ais523> so (a|b) means 'match a, if that fails or there's a fail somewhere later try matching b instead'
12:53:39 <ehird`> &, i think, is a bit more interesting than |
12:53:42 <ais523> if you don't want it to backtrack into the (a|b) group you can write (a|b)!- instead
12:53:51 <ehird`> anyway
12:53:52 <ais523> you're right, & is definitely more interesting
12:53:56 <ehird`> with mine you can have different modifiers on a and b
12:53:58 <ehird`> etc
12:53:59 <ehird`> :)
12:54:21 <ais523> obviously that's possible, you just put the modifiers inside the groups in question
12:54:31 <ehird`> i have no idea what the implications are, but or-ing an arbitary, in-output group with a non-arbitary, out-of-output group sounds... interesting
12:54:39 <ehird`> but, let's think about &
12:54:46 <ehird`> what are the implications? i get the feeling it could be very useful
12:54:50 <ehird`> but i don't quite see which
12:54:54 <ehird`> well, let's boil it down
12:55:21 <ehird`> A&B = if A, then B. else, A.
12:55:39 <ehird`> now - what are the implications of that in a regexp language? (Where the "if A" means "if A matches")
12:55:42 <ais523> ehird`: for the or you can just write (a|b^), for instance, which either removes an a from the input string or failing that adds a b
12:56:45 <ais523> for the and you've just defined, that's ab? (or (ab?)? depending on whether you want the not-a situation to succeed or fail)
12:56:59 <ais523> and you can always just cut away any choicepoints that are left behind that you don't want
12:58:16 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure it isn't ab?
12:58:19 <ehird`> since
12:58:25 <ehird`> if a was true, and b was
12:58:29 <ehird`> only b would be "returned"
12:58:30 <ehird`> not ab
12:58:59 <ais523> my regexes don't 'return' things, they just modify the input string and/or group-match memory
12:59:31 <ehird`> "return" means "add to the match tree"
13:00:09 <ais523> then you want (a=x)(b=y)? in my language where x and y are the things to add to the output corresponding to a and b
13:00:09 <ehird`> but, you know what i mean
13:00:18 <ehird`> i'll demonstrate
13:00:36 <ehird`> x -> y -> z, meaning "expr x with input y matches tree z":
13:00:50 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:01:03 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "b" -> nope
13:01:14 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "a" -> nope
13:01:25 <ehird`> i think that's right
13:01:42 <ais523> does nope refer to a fail, here?
13:02:02 <ais523> in my language, because returning is explicit, you just don't return anything from a: (a=)(b=y)
13:02:37 <ehird`> i think it means a fail
13:02:39 <ehird`> ;)
13:03:11 <ais523> all languages should have some backtracking construct IMO
13:03:29 <ehird`> how about:
13:03:29 <ais523> because it makes it much easier to implement backtracking languages, and doesn't affect programs that don't need to use it
13:03:36 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:03:36 <ais523> likewise for multithreading
13:03:38 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:03:48 <ais523> you just wrote the same thing twice
13:03:49 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "a" -> [["b"]]
13:03:50 <ehird`> I know
13:03:58 <ehird`> (a&b) -> "b" -> [["a"]]
13:04:09 <ehird`> because that is "directly" if A then B else A
13:04:28 <ais523> (a=b|b=a)?
13:04:53 <ais523> incidentally, on single characters, you can write that 'ab=ba' in my language as shorthand
13:06:01 <ehird`> i dont know
13:06:14 <ehird`> i'm just trying to think of a useful way to implement an and construct
13:06:55 <ais523> I think ab is probably the simplest sort of and construct; after all, both a and b have to match for ab to match
13:07:13 <ais523> that sort of and has been around for ages, and nearly all regexes use it
13:07:20 <ais523> sort of like and in Prolog
13:07:27 <ais523> it's the 'and then' operator
13:11:01 <ehird`> no
13:11:16 <ehird`> in your programming language of choice, does a & b return [a, b] if both a and b are true?
13:11:19 <ehird`> no -- it returns b
13:11:29 <ehird`> so, ab is not a&b
13:11:51 <ais523> in many languages, and just returns true or false, which was more the idea I was getting at
13:12:03 <ais523> or in backtracking languages, succeed/fail
13:12:25 <ais523> the 'and then' is clearly a separate operator from perl's and
13:12:39 <ehird`> "many languages" suck ;)
13:12:54 <ehird`> ok, let's take a lowest-common-denominator language
13:13:06 <ehird`> one that follows most patterns intuitively, but isn't very interesting : python
13:13:22 <ehird`> >>> 1 and 2
13:13:22 <ehird`> 2
13:13:30 <ehird`> in just about every language i have used (that i didn't hate) that happened
13:13:59 <ais523> I agree that all the best languages seem to implement it like that, apart from C-based languages (some of which are also good)
13:14:03 <ehird`> so --
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "ab" -> [["b"]]
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "b" -> nope
13:14:03 <ehird`> <ehird`> (a&b) -> "a" -> nope
13:14:09 <ehird`> seems to be a reasonable construct
13:14:24 <ais523> but in my language, nothing returns anything unless a return value is guaranteed
13:14:25 <ehird`> but the question is, is it useful like that? what is a reasonable usecase?
13:14:33 <ehird`> or is there another way to implement it that makes it more useful?
13:14:42 <SimonRC> actually, in C, 1 && 2 == 2
13:14:49 <ais523> no, 1 && 2 == 1
13:14:54 <ais523> && always returns 0 or 1
13:14:59 <SimonRC> ah, yes, silly me
13:15:17 <SimonRC> lisp: (AND 1 2) ==> 2
13:15:18 <ais523> you can write 1?2:0 for a Perl-style and (where the 0 is a constant)
13:15:43 <ais523> BASIC: 1 AND 2 ==> 0
13:15:49 <ais523> (because it always does it bitwise)
13:15:52 <ehird`> basic as an example? :P
13:16:09 <ehird`> anyway by 1 and 2 i didn't neccessarily mean 1 and 2 because of bitwise-ness
13:16:24 <ehird`> i just meant two things that have the truth-value of "true" but are not "true" themselves
13:17:00 <ais523> I only picked BASIC because it did something different from the other languages
13:17:26 <ais523> and I was demonstrating that for values other than true or false, what it did didn't just jump to set values nor take the second value
13:18:07 <ehird`> so i guess we're all stuck on trying to work out a use for my (a&b) semantics? :)
13:18:36 <ais523> imagine a BASIC interpreter written in regexes
13:18:58 <ehird`> i don't want to
13:18:59 <ehird`> however
13:19:00 <ais523> PRINT 6 is equivalent to (PRINT&&6) with an ehird`-style AND
13:19:06 <ehird`> lisp interpreter written with regexes?
13:19:09 <ehird`> trivial
13:19:14 <ehird`> and no, ais523, it is not
13:19:26 <ehird`> (a&b) with "ab" as input >produces [["b"]]<
13:19:44 <ehird`> whereas (ab) with "ab" as input produces [["a", "b"]]
13:19:56 <ais523> I assumed you were piping the output to a console that was flattening
13:20:03 <ais523> you wouldn't want to print the PRINT as well as the 6
13:20:12 <ais523> so it's just the 6 that's being printed
13:20:42 <ehird`> oh i get it
13:20:55 <ehird`> you are saying that PRINT 6 (basic code) is (PRINT&&6) in mine?
13:21:31 <ehird`> right?
13:21:33 <ais523> I'm saying that the ehird`-regexp (PRINT&&.*) will output just what's after the PRINT if fed PRINT 6 as input
13:21:40 <ehird`> yes
13:21:55 <ehird`> (PRINT&&a) -> "PRINTa" -> [["a"]]
13:21:55 <ais523> in my language, that's (PRINT.*=.*)
13:22:10 <ais523> because it matches corresponding .s and *s together
13:22:10 <ehird`> (it's &, actually, right now :P)
13:22:21 <ehird`> and that is interesting but it seems like it could be ambigious
13:22:41 <ais523> what does 'that' refer to in your preceding statement?
13:23:04 <ehird`> <ais523> in my language, that's (PRINT.*=.*)
13:23:25 <ehird`> (PRINT.*.*=.*)
13:23:28 <ehird`> which does the RHS .* refer to
13:23:39 <ais523> that's an error because the two sides don't have the same structure
13:23:53 <ehird`> ah
13:24:06 <ehird`> so, does & seem useful to you at all with my semantics?
13:24:20 <ais523> you could disable one for matching purposes as (PRINT(+.*).*=.*) if you liked, because a group starting with + isn't counted
13:24:22 <ehird`> i am not sure if it could be given better semantics, or if these are good, or if it's even useful either way
13:24:59 <ais523> I think & might be useful, but it should be codable within the language, rather than being a feature of it
13:25:05 <ais523> sort-of like a standard library function
13:26:08 <ehird`> now now this is regexps
13:26:13 <ehird`> let's not get overboard
13:26:13 <ehird`> :)
13:26:24 <ehird`> but try as i might i just can not think of a usecase for &
13:26:29 <ehird`> no matter how intuitively useful it sounds
13:27:04 <ais523> 'and then' is probably a more useful operator, boring as it is
13:27:30 <ehird`> there has to be some obscure & usecase! :<
13:27:39 * ais523 has to go now in order to have a chance of getting lunch before being busy, but will read the end of the conversation in the logs
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13:28:49 <ehird`> who wants to continue this discussion? :P
13:29:30 * oklopol says "penis" and everyone laughs
13:30:09 <oklopol> i can't think of a usecase, and unfortunately i don't have time for that either :<
13:30:20 <oklopol> but ehird`: check out ihope's parser language
13:30:23 <oklopol> that's pretty neat
13:32:26 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: have you mown your blind sufficiently yet?
14:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> something like that
14:01:34 <RodgerTheGreat> observe the first two pages of a story I started working on last night:
14:01:35 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1191376302-Cosm1.png
14:01:40 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1191386100-Cosm2.png
14:09:02 <ehird`> NOT END ->
14:09:07 <ehird`> very zen ending marker
14:10:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm still writing
14:10:53 <ehird`> ;)
14:14:16 <RodgerTheGreat> do you like the general concept, though? Are you interested in where things are going?
14:15:31 <SimonRC> looks good so far
14:15:34 <ehird`> i think the next frame will involve lots of spam popup-demon-things
14:15:40 <SimonRC> now do 998 more, and you have a webcomic
14:15:44 <ehird`> "Congratulations! You win a free iPod!"
14:15:45 <RodgerTheGreat> woo
14:16:03 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: lol- there's a line similar to that
14:22:07 <ehird`> also
14:22:14 <ehird`> why does that popup use decimal
14:22:15 <ehird`> :P
14:26:59 <RodgerTheGreat> there is an explanation for that
14:28:09 <ehird`> it better be good
14:28:21 <ehird`> and not just "Oh, well you have 10 fingers, so I talk using decimal so it's easier for you"
14:28:34 <ehird`> that's on the same level as "Oh, well you use English, so I do the same so it's easier for you"
14:28:39 <ehird`> (that better have an explanation too :P)
14:29:04 <RodgerTheGreat> more like "there's a reason you have 10 fingers!"
14:29:49 <RodgerTheGreat> the english thing only applies to the popup, and it speaks english for a perfectly valid reason. Not everything does or will.
14:30:49 <ehird`> i am very intrigued then
14:30:55 <SimonRC> I wish popups left me alone for 22 years if I am busy
14:31:05 <ehird`> you should put up a site for it, dumped images aren't fun to navigate :P
14:31:48 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe
14:32:02 <ehird`> ... possibly fix the blur on the left side of the page too :P
14:32:19 * SimonRC wonders what NetBasic is
14:32:36 <ehird`> http://support.novell.com/techcenter/articles/dnd19961103.html this?
14:32:44 <RodgerTheGreat> that's because my scanner isn't technically large enough for my bristol board
14:32:51 <ehird`> a very ugly basic dialect it seems
14:33:06 <RodgerTheGreat> wtf? NetBASIC already exists? Well, fuck me
14:33:17 <ehird`> huh?
14:33:27 <RodgerTheGreat> my version is much prettier, if less useful.
14:33:42 * ehird` is confused
14:35:32 <SimonRC> this: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1190938723-downsteam.png
14:35:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm writing a BASIC implementation called NetBASIC
14:35:39 <SimonRC> ok
14:35:40 <RodgerTheGreat> exactly
14:36:13 <ehird`> out of curiosity
14:36:14 <ehird`> why?
14:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> it's part of a game
14:39:13 <SimonRC> what kind of game?
14:40:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kindof a coding/puzzle game. You write programs to traverse a simulated network, retrieve various files, and get around obstacles, in some cases with code length restrictions or time limits
14:41:07 <RodgerTheGreat> some puzzles may even involve "distributed computing" challenges
14:41:30 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, hacking-like
14:41:36 <RodgerTheGreat> more or less
14:41:48 <ehird`> couldn't you make it more obsucre?
14:41:53 <ehird`> like, an APL/Lisp alike ;)
14:41:55 <ehird`> (Both!)
14:41:59 * SimonRC tries to remembner the name of the popular "virtual hacking" game
14:41:59 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a little abstract, and not intended to be particularly accurate, but it's pretty fun
14:42:11 <RodgerTheGreat> arbitrary code execution, for example, is pretty trivial
14:42:23 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: Uplink
14:42:30 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: yes
14:42:31 <RodgerTheGreat> by introversion software.
14:43:21 <ehird`> uplink is fun
14:43:34 <ehird`> it's silly
14:43:34 <ehird`> but fun
14:43:38 <ehird`> i like introversion software
14:43:41 <RodgerTheGreat> Uplink was in no small way an inspiration to this game. I love the concept and execution, but I felt a hacking game with more to do with coding would be even more fun
14:43:56 <RodgerTheGreat> introversion makes some great stuff- have either of you tried DefCon?
14:44:58 <ehird`> darwinia was popular a while back
14:45:25 <RodgerTheGreat> darwinia was breathtakingly beautiful, but I think the gameplay was a little slow-paced
14:45:59 <RodgerTheGreat> plus, they ditched the gesture-driven task manager for a regular menu in the patch. :(
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14:51:17 <RodgerTheGreat> introversion's games are interesting in that you can see they were designed as a bunch of interesting demos that eventually merged together into a game. They also tend to appear very simple and contain a tremendous amount of depth upon further inspection. The commandline on hacked computers in Uplink is an example.
14:51:55 <ehird`> yeah the command-line actually suprised me when i first saw it
14:52:03 <ehird`> i didn't expect that kind of control
14:53:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I was just like "Uh... this can't possibly be that realistic... [cds around and looks at filesystem.] huh. What happens if I delete the OS and tell it to restart? [connection lost.]" and then the machine was dead for the rest of the game!
14:53:34 <RodgerTheGreat> that was kinda my "holy shit this game is awesome" moment right there
14:54:16 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
14:55:29 <ehird`> it was crazy taht you could remove the logfiles via the command-line
14:55:35 <ehird`> you didn't actually need the log-remover frontend
15:11:09 <SimonRC> I think I am turning into a troll: "{18, 213, 235, 238, 247, 254} <-- allegory about belief systems"
15:24:09 <Sgeo> SimonRC, hm?
15:24:53 <SimonRC> nvm
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16:05:01 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: yeah, the frontend was just more thorough- as I remember, deleting things via commandline still left log entries that the files had been deleted
16:07:48 <ehird`> yeah
16:07:50 <ehird`> so
16:07:54 <ehird`> remove the log directory
16:07:55 <ehird`> :)
16:08:00 <RodgerTheGreat> hahaha
16:08:05 <RodgerTheGreat> that works? I never tried it
16:08:25 <RodgerTheGreat> will it recreate the dir next time it logs something, or does it stay dead?
16:19:52 <ehird`> i dunno
16:19:54 <ehird`> i think it just dies
16:19:57 <ehird`> =)
16:20:45 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, uplink computers and their fantastic operating system
16:20:53 <ehird`> dies as in doesn't log anything
16:20:57 <ehird`> not dies as in PFFFTKRRRNK
16:21:03 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I got what you mean
16:21:11 <RodgerTheGreat> which is frickin' awesome
16:21:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if only it wasn't so damn hard to get a commandline for more than a handful of seconds most of the time
16:21:40 <SimonRC> yeah
16:22:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I've routed through just about every computer on InterNIC, and those bastards can still track me down in no time flat! The best ones to route through are government systems or banks, I've found.
16:22:46 <ehird`> i never actually got on to the storyline, hah
16:22:57 <ehird`> it just never came
16:23:14 <RodgerTheGreat> me neither. I have way too much fun just playing around, not entirely unlike how I play the Grand Theft Auto series
16:23:27 <RodgerTheGreat> neat trick for becoming rich in Uplink:
16:23:31 <ehird`> it's weird, though, i did everything i had to do,
16:23:35 <ehird`> but the email from ARC never came
16:23:48 <ehird`> though if i were to play the storyline
16:23:55 <ehird`> i would so fscking release that virus all over the net :D
16:24:04 <ehird`> you get to see it destroy every connected computer through red dots ;)
16:24:57 <RodgerTheGreat> - crack a bank. Steal shit-tons of money and put it in your Uplink accounts. The banks will immediately begin a slow trace that will ruin your shit when it gets to you. Route through a bunch of targets, do a legit series of transactions between several accounts to get your money laundered, and then store it in an account you remember. Proceed to cover your tracks like hell.
16:25:12 <RodgerTheGreat> then, the original bank will catch you, and you'll lose your uplink account
16:25:33 <ehird`> heh
16:25:37 <RodgerTheGreat> create a new account, connect to the bank you stashed your money in, and make a withdrawl
16:25:48 <ehird`> wow, it carries across acounts?
16:25:49 <ehird`> that IS neat
16:25:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bing-bam-kaching, buy all your tools and a better gateway and you're set
16:26:11 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, some stuff remains persistent
16:26:55 <RodgerTheGreat> Uplink is the *only* game where I've ever seen anything close to that
16:27:32 <RodgerTheGreat> you can also sometimes store your hacking utilities on machines you crack, but it needs to be something low security like InterNIC or the Uplink Test Server.
16:27:41 <RodgerTheGreat> backups are good when software costs money
16:28:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I often stash code on the test server if I don't have enough storage for all my utilities, and then I can retrieve them later
16:28:25 <ehird`> its amazing how open Introversion are
16:28:34 <ehird`> the dev CD for uplink, the fact that they support linux, windows and os x
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16:28:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, Ambrosia handles all the OSX ports
16:29:35 -!- Tritonio has joined.
16:29:42 <ehird`> yes -- but on the disk, there is ALL THREE
16:29:53 <ehird`> one purchase, you have the version for each OS, right there
16:30:00 <ehird`> no other game company that i know does that
16:30:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Blizzard does 2/3, but yeah. Introversion kicks so much ass.
16:30:50 * Sgeo doesn't like buying stuff
16:30:50 <RodgerTheGreat> They make games so utterly unlike anything else... it's really inspiring
16:31:18 <SimonRC> I should direct my cash in their direction
16:31:20 <RodgerTheGreat> Support independent game developers.
16:31:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking about buying Defcon- the demo was amazing
16:32:15 <ehird`> Sgeo: this is why people complain about capitalism... lazy people.
16:33:06 <ehird`> i'm not going to say "stop" to anyone who pirates games or anything... but if it's an indie developer, you really owe it to them
16:33:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Introversion makes wonderful things, and their games are inexpensive. They deserve money.
16:34:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I know a bunch of assholes that'll buy a legit copy of Halo and turn around and pirate a copy of Uplink. It makes me sick. Bungie/MS don't feel it when their shitty games are pirated, but independent developers get the screw
16:35:58 <ehird`> its really quite a difficult subject...
16:36:19 <ehird`> there is a car cloning machine which you can simply point at a car from any range, and you immediately get your own. the cloner is free.
16:36:24 <ehird`> yet, car companies --big and small-- still sell cars.
16:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't pirate software myself at all.
16:36:34 <ehird`> is it "stealing" to use the cloner device on a car?
16:37:04 <RodgerTheGreat> Stealing from the company that invested time and money to design the car, perhaps
16:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> but the car analogy is really terrible for software discussions
16:38:30 <ehird`> replace car with anything you want
16:38:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the main reason most people pirate software is the bastard self-important sense of entitlement everyone seems to have these days. "I pirate music because I can't afford it". THEN DON'T LISTEN TO MUSIC, YOU BASTARD- IT'S A LUXURY, NOT A NECESSITY! YOU DO NOT DESERVE FREE MUSIC!
16:39:38 * ehird` pirates music because he is an asshole, but agrees in principle ;)
16:39:39 <RodgerTheGreat> nobody *deserves* free anything on the internet, it's just what they've become accustomed to.
16:40:17 <RodgerTheGreat> god forbid anyone try to profit from their own creative energies and labor if they so choose
16:41:28 <ehird`> i do make a point to buy albums i like when i get the chance
16:41:43 <RodgerTheGreat> It pisses me off tremendously when people steal music, games and software programs, justifying their actions by saying they can't afford to buy them.
16:41:46 <ehird`> if I pirate an album, really like it, then if I see it for a reasonable price I will buy it
16:42:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I pay for my music via iTunes, and if I don't feel like paying money for music, I turn to one of the many sources of genuinely free sources of music on the internet, like creative commons stuff and the modarchive
16:43:02 <RodgerTheGreat> it helps if you like chiptunes
16:43:12 <ehird`> I do not buy iTunes music because I do not enjoy DRM.
16:43:36 <ehird`> I use the iTunes player, though, because 1. it's good 2. it can play gaplessly 3. it's the only decent one for OS X
16:43:57 * GregorR wonders if anybody cares at all about his awesome MISC environment :P
16:44:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: For an additional fee, you can buy DRM-free music on iTunes.
16:44:32 <ehird`> ... Only for some albums.
16:44:41 <ehird`> Specifically, EMI albums.
16:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> it's only for some record labels, but more often than not I can buy what I want that way
16:44:57 <GregorR> "Recorded in 1902, this album is now out of copyright!"
16:45:21 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: enjoy your pre-wax-cylenders
16:45:34 <RodgerTheGreat> *cylinder
16:45:40 <GregorR> Pff, that's not an accurate assessment, they had wax cylinders <1900
16:45:45 <RodgerTheGreat> ouch, that misspelling brought me pain
16:45:48 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: I do not listen to many mainstream bands, the (3?) labels participating are all major labels.
16:49:17 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Also, it could be a piano roll :)
16:49:34 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: alright, fair enough- didn't think of that
16:53:07 -!- bsmntbom2dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
16:54:31 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
16:58:56 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
16:59:06 -!- jix has joined.
16:59:07 <bsmntbombdood> i pirate music without justifying my actions
16:59:56 <ehird`> ditto!
16:59:57 <ehird`> :)
17:03:53 <GregorR> I justify my action ... my justification is "fuck you I'm taking this"
17:04:04 <ehird`> we're a bunch of commies! ;)
17:04:05 <ehird`> or not.
17:08:16 * GregorR actually has no illegal music :P
17:08:45 <puzzlet_> like, music where outlaws sing about killing people?
17:08:57 <GregorR> That's perfectly legal music.
17:09:01 <GregorR> It's called rap.
17:09:04 <ehird`> no, music whose tonal structure embeds the HD key
17:10:25 * GregorR wonders if anybody cares at all about his awesome MISC environment :P
17:10:31 * GregorR enjoys repeating himself.
17:12:22 <ehird`> GregorR: do tel, then
17:12:35 <ehird`> also... who's on windows? http://www.gamersquarter.com/tennisfortwo/ tennis for two simulator with internet play!
17:12:43 <ehird`> i'll put up a server if anyone wants
17:12:53 <bsmntbombdood> no one's on windows
17:13:17 <GregorR> I made an ASM language for MISC, and implemented basic math primitives with C preproc defines, so now writing MISC code is aaaaaaaaalmost like any other RISC.
17:13:24 <GregorR> The advantage? None! But it's amusing :P
17:13:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: i'm not on here for long :P
17:29:19 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/miscdocs/
17:39:09 <Sgeo> GregorR, being amusing is an advantage >.>
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17:43:42 <GregorR> Well, another advantage is that it's not totally unrealistic to imagine a GCC backend.
17:44:04 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:44:19 <GregorR> Unlike BF, which is not only registerless but exceedingly register-emulation-unfriendly :P
17:44:54 <GregorR> In MISC, I just reserved 0xFFFExxxx and called a few of them registers.
17:47:08 <SimonRC> what is the instruction?
17:47:30 <GregorR> Subtract and branch if negative.
17:47:38 <GregorR> See http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/MISC
17:47:48 <SimonRC> and that needs 4 arguments how?
17:48:38 <GregorR> Arithmetic destination, source 1, source 2, branch target
17:48:54 <GregorR> It's dest = src1 - src2, not a = a - b
17:49:22 <GregorR> Admittedly, MISC is pretty lavish for an OISC ;)
17:52:13 <SimonRC> the best one I have seen is the one with "reverse subtract and skip if negative", I think
17:52:32 <SimonRC> you have to do jumps by modifying the IP
17:53:12 <GregorR> The IP isn't memory-mapped in MISC.
17:53:27 <GregorR> You do conditional jumps by writing to the branch target of the next instruction.
17:53:41 <SimonRC> hey! subskin is classified as a tarpit!
17:53:59 <SimonRC> GregorR: the pipeline-engineers are going to love that
17:54:27 <GregorR> I like MISC independent of esotericity - in all seriousness, this could be implemented with a processor smaller than the head of a pin, and is fully TC (within the limits of bounded memory)
17:55:57 * GregorR imagines MISC nanobots.
17:57:20 <SimonRC> GregorR: do you want to get Dugg?
17:57:38 <GregorR> Not desperately :P
17:57:56 <SimonRC> Ha ChooseMyHat been dugg yet?
17:58:02 <GregorR> O_O
17:58:08 <GregorR> Maybe THAT'S why I got 75 votes yesterday!
18:03:27 <ehird`> no, nobody has
18:03:29 <ehird`> just fyi
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18:08:49 <GregorR> Then why DID I get 75 votes yesterday X-D
18:09:10 <SimonRC> it is being passed around, maybe
18:09:26 <GregorR> But it was just for that /one day/.
18:14:00 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
18:26:46 <ehird`> someone used a bot
18:31:37 <GregorR> It logs IPs.
18:31:47 <GregorR> Somebody used a botnet, maybe.
18:31:53 <GregorR> But it seems like a waste of a botnet ;P
18:32:06 <GregorR> It's a DUOS - Distributed Use of Service
18:35:06 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: digg it
18:35:08 <bsmntbombdood> you must
18:35:31 <GregorR> I refuse to digg.
18:35:35 <GregorR> It's against my principles.
18:35:41 <bsmntbombdood> no
18:35:43 <bsmntbombdood> you must
18:35:55 <GregorR> Mainly, the principle of using people who aren't me to filter digg for me :P
18:37:24 <GregorR> Why don't /you/ digg it :P
18:38:01 <ehird`> reddit it!
18:38:04 <ehird`> redd-it!
18:38:21 <GregorR> I refuse to reddit.
18:38:26 <GregorR> It's against my principles.
18:38:36 <GregorR> Mainly, the principle of using people who aren't me to filter reddit for me :P
18:38:43 <GregorR> Why don't /you/ reddit it :P
18:39:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I have returned
18:39:33 <ehird`> i might just reddit it
18:39:35 <ehird`> OH, ONE PROBLEM
18:39:44 <ehird`> i have 1 karma thus ensuring nobody will vote it up
18:39:44 <ehird`> :P
18:40:22 <Sgeo> karma?
18:41:34 <GregorR> Reddit has an infinitely obscure algorithm for devaluating the submissions of people who submit too much.
18:41:37 <GregorR> Two is too much.
18:41:57 <GregorR> Correct me if I'm wrong, that's entirely heresay :P
18:42:05 <GregorR> *hearsay >_>
18:42:16 <GregorR> Feel free to correct my spelling of hearsay if it's wrong as well :P
18:42:18 <RodgerTheGreat> infinitely obscure...
18:42:24 * SimonRC goes to dinner
18:42:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I like this phrase
18:42:48 <ehird`> you are wrong GregorR
18:42:51 <ehird`> karma is good
18:42:56 <ehird`> it goes up when more people vote you up
18:43:01 <ehird`> it is, of course, highly teasured
18:43:13 <GregorR> I didn't say that positive karma = too many submissions
18:43:21 <ehird`> the joke is that people will instinctively downvote anyone with a low karma, which is of course false
18:46:14 <GregorR> If somebody with negative karma downvotes you, does that increase your karma? :P
18:46:35 <ehird`> :P
18:51:49 <GregorR> That would be interesting. There would be huge amounts of churn as karmas flew around zero, and then random people would find themselves with high enough karma that they could really start building it up :P
18:51:58 <GregorR> I'll call it the "ridiculously terrible karma system" :P
18:52:29 <RodgerTheGreat> positive karma + modup = karma boost. negative karma + moddown = smaller karma boost?
18:54:44 <ehird`> that's kinda stupid though
18:55:02 * ehird` has toyed with a hypothetical link site in the past
18:55:30 <ehird`> it's kind of like a blend between the selectivity and summaries of slashdot (but shorter and to-the-point), the efficiency of reddit, and some parts from digg
18:55:32 <ehird`> it is very nice
18:56:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
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19:07:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:13:08 <ehird`> hmm
19:13:10 <ehird`> :P
19:13:45 <GregorR> I don't suppose anybody has actual /comments/ on my MISC syntax?
19:14:59 <ehird`> nope!
19:15:35 <GregorR> Is that because it's extremely perfect?
19:18:18 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm just assuming it's perfect
19:18:39 <oklopol> wanna link it once again? ;)
19:19:04 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/miscdocs/
19:19:19 <GregorR> On the one hand, it's legit to assume anything I wrote is perfect, but on the other hand I could use comments.
19:22:58 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
19:25:23 <oklopol> seems nice, although i don't have time to have a close look
19:25:32 <oklopol> can i have an interpreter for that or smth?
19:25:43 <bsmntbom1dood> there's a girl sitting next to me <_<
19:25:56 <oklopol> although i didn't play much with that urinal thing once you said you were sure it's pretty useless
19:26:01 <GregorR> oklopol: Depends on whether you A) have a D+Tango compiler or B) will take a binary.
19:26:07 <oklopol> bsmntbom1dood: touch her and tell us how it felt
19:26:18 <GregorR> oklopol: The Order of Urinals is not, as it turns out, Turing Complete :(
19:26:19 <oklopol> GregorR: binary, sure
19:26:24 <oklopol> yep :<
19:26:29 <GregorR> oklopol: Platform?
19:26:29 <oklopol> you actually proved it?
19:26:32 <bsmntbom1dood> ha
19:26:34 <bsmntbom1dood> no.
19:26:36 <oklopol> win/ubuntu
19:26:52 <GregorR> oklopol: No, I din't write a proof per se, I just dug myself into a corner.
19:26:59 <oklopol> bsmntbom1dood: touched, but won't tell? :<
19:27:19 <oklopol> GregorR: not sure what that means :|
19:27:27 <oklopol> i think i made a proof of some sort myself
19:27:30 <bsmntbom1dood> i tend to not touch random people
19:28:05 <bsmntbom1dood> oh em gee, she asked me for some paper
19:28:25 <GregorR> bsmntbom1dood: BE MORE PATHETIC
19:28:30 <oklopol> xD
19:28:41 <ehird`> you're on the internet, we make jokes about patheticness
19:28:43 <ehird`> get with the program
19:28:44 <ehird`> ;)
19:28:44 <oklopol> i usually stare at girls
19:28:57 <oklopol> if i get the chance
19:28:59 <bsmntbom1dood> GregorR: i don't think that's possible
19:30:00 <GregorR> oklopol: http://www.codu.org/misc/ <-- includes binaries for GNU/Linux
19:32:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:32:19 <oklopol> thanks, i'll try and find a use for that :P
19:32:19 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:32:43 <GregorR> Well you asked for it X-P
19:33:04 <oklopol> i wasn't being sarcastic in any way :)
19:33:07 <bsmntbombdood> now a guy came
19:33:22 <oklopol> omg, there's no one here with me
19:33:23 <bsmntbombdood> he's sitting across the room
19:33:29 <bsmntbombdood> omg another girl
19:33:30 <oklopol> my room is empty :<
19:33:36 <oklopol> where are you?
19:34:04 <bsmntbombdood> in a roo
19:34:06 <bsmntbombdood> m
19:34:14 <bsmntbombdood> aaw, now a teacher came in
19:34:32 <oklopol> female?
19:34:35 <bsmntbombdood> yes
19:34:46 <GregorR> Hahahahah, you're even more pathetic than I thought X-D
19:34:46 <oklopol> what size?
19:34:50 <bsmntbombdood> what size?
19:34:54 <oklopol> boobies
19:35:04 <bsmntbombdood> dunno
19:35:08 <oklopol> oh :(
19:35:10 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh kay, escaping this conversation. *fwoom*
19:35:13 <oklopol> :)
19:37:09 <bsmntbombdood> now there's 5 people
19:37:19 <oklopol> no one here still
19:37:44 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: what's the purpose of that room?
19:38:00 <oklopol> are you listening to the teacher or does there just happen to be a teacher in the room?
19:38:04 <GregorR> I'm sitting in a cubicle. I'm alone in my cubicle. It's extremely exciting.
19:38:13 <GregorR> Probably a computer lab.
19:38:35 <oklopol> i'm sitting in my armchair, eating chicken
19:38:52 <bsmntbombdood> i think they call it a "group study" room
19:38:56 <bsmntbombdood> it's for the program i'm in
19:39:01 <GregorR> (oklopol named his dog "chicken")
19:39:10 <bsmntbombdood> and the teacher isn't teaching
19:39:18 <oklopol> yeah, indeed that's funnier if you know that
19:39:25 <oklopol> chicken is my dog
19:39:46 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: so you're studying now?
19:39:50 <bsmntbombdood> no
19:39:58 <bsmntbombdood> i probably should be though
19:39:59 <ehird`> i am now going to get a chicken
19:40:01 <ehird`> and name it dog
19:40:09 <GregorR> And eat it.
19:40:13 <bsmntbombdood> i have 7 chickens
19:40:13 <ehird`> yes
19:40:16 <ehird`> and claim to be eating dog
19:40:40 <GregorR> I'm going to get a chicken and name it "Filipino child"
19:41:15 <bsmntbombdood> i'm going to get a gregor and name it "george"
19:41:54 <ehird`> i'm going to get a PC and name it "mac"
19:42:18 <bsmntbombdood> i'm going to get a penis and not give it a name
19:42:22 <bsmntbombdood> oh wait, i did
19:43:17 <oklopol> i love it how every joke must be exhausted until the original subject (though there wasn't one this time) gets forgotten
19:43:58 <oklopol> well, actually not sure if that's ever happened, but you'd think
19:44:05 <ehird`> 1st Law of IRCodynamics: Every conversation approaches maximum penis-reference.
19:44:16 <ehird`> Err, 2nd Law
19:44:26 <GregorR> I don't penis that actually happens.
19:44:29 <GregorR> I penis that's just a penis.
19:44:32 <oklopol> interesting turn! my mom was here for a few seconds
19:44:57 <ehird`> Let's test these laws.
19:45:07 <ehird`> I like chicken! Which chicken, the species or the dog? You decide!
19:45:11 <GregorR> Penis are penis other penis?
19:45:15 <ehird`> Penis.
19:45:23 <GregorR> Penis penis penis?
19:46:13 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: your mom was with your penis?
19:46:22 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: Penis.
19:46:35 <bsmntbombdood> hawt
19:47:25 <oklopol> hehe, epic
19:50:34 <bsmntbombdood> b0r3d
19:52:34 <bsmntbombdood> b0n3d
19:53:34 <GregorR> Heh, I just realized that my MISC #define will go into an infinite loop if you divide by zero :P
19:53:41 <GregorR> Erm, #define DIV that is.
19:53:52 <bsmntbombdood> zomg, boobies
19:54:35 <GregorR> Just thrust your face into 'em and see what she does.
19:56:06 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think taht will end well
19:56:34 <GregorR> DOIIIIIIIIIIIIT
19:56:36 <GregorR> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
19:56:47 * GregorR leaves for lunch while you get expelled.
19:59:22 * bsmntbombdood is drinking soe water
20:09:35 <ehird`> soe water?
20:09:35 <ehird`> :P
20:09:48 <bsmntbombdood> some water
20:13:33 <ehird`> obviously
20:13:36 <ehird`> i was poking fun
20:14:05 <bsmntbombdood> I WAS POKING POON
20:14:07 <bsmntbombdood> oops
20:14:44 <oklopol> i should make a game maker program with an actually *good* scripting language
20:15:06 <oklopol> i kinda sucks when the language is something like actionscript that doesn't allow *anything* to made easily
20:15:10 <oklopol> *it kinda
20:17:02 <oklopol> to be honest i haven't really checked out other than flash, game maker and games factory, and flash isn't really made especially for games
20:26:36 <ehird`> pygame!
20:26:38 <ehird`> although, it's not the same
20:26:41 <ehird`> but game making programs suck
20:26:49 <oklopol> yeah, that was my point
20:27:12 <oklopol> you could actually make a language with game programming in mind
20:27:16 <oklopol> 2d that is.
20:27:32 <oklopol> i don't care for 3d
20:27:35 <oklopol> :P
20:27:40 <oklopol> http://dagobah.biz/flash/linegame.swf
20:28:10 <oklopol> that should be like 10 lines max
20:31:04 <oklopol> (the movements of the worm i mean)
20:31:15 <oklopol> might be a bit hard to get the levels in 10 lines :P
20:31:38 <ehird`> that does not look 10 lines ;P
20:31:41 <ehird`> however
20:31:45 <ehird`> i am interested in game-oriented stuff
20:31:51 <ehird`> maybe i should kind of pack this into an experimental language
20:31:51 <oklopol> the movement doesn't?
20:32:03 <ehird`> my turing complete regex-alikes which i discussed with oerjan earlier
20:32:11 <ehird`> graphics-oriented stuff like game stuff
20:32:12 <oklopol> with oerjan?
20:32:14 <oklopol> hmm
20:32:17 <ehird`> yeah, earlier today
20:32:23 <ehird`> today in the GMT sense, its 20:40 here
20:33:35 <oklopol> unless you mean ais, i don't have the logs i guess :<
20:34:06 <ehird`> both
20:34:08 <oklopol> you had a long talk with ais, but you also did with oerjan?
20:34:10 <oklopol> oh
20:34:11 <oklopol> hmm...
20:34:12 <ehird`> it started ais, then oerjan cut in
20:34:39 <ehird`> look at the ircbrowse.com logs
20:34:40 <ehird`> in topic
20:35:08 <ehird`> also, that line game is impossible
20:35:09 <ehird`> :p
20:35:31 <oklopol> i'm doing the hardest level with keyboard
20:35:45 <oklopol> i get to the second rotating thingie
20:35:56 <ehird`> i did 20 seconds on "a"
20:35:57 <ehird`> with keyboard
20:36:04 <ehird`> mouse is impossible
20:36:50 <ehird`> b is impossible
20:36:59 <oklopol> okay
20:37:04 <oklopol> i can't find it in the logs either.
20:37:33 <oklopol> also, i do have a lot over 24h of logs showing here, so...
20:37:55 <oklopol> anyways, i guess that's beside the point
20:37:59 <ehird`> search for regexps
20:38:05 <ehird`> and then scroll up
20:38:10 <ehird`> it is really quite interesting
20:38:10 <oklopol> i just read everything oerjan has said
20:38:25 <ehird`> i discussed my own ideas too
20:39:13 <oklopol> i've read the logs, of course
20:39:24 <oklopol> but really, show me oerjan, this is getting scary :P
20:40:33 <ehird`> search regexp
20:41:21 <oklopol> but... i've read your and ais523's conversation :<
20:41:29 <oklopol> i really see no oerjan
20:41:54 <oklopol> also, i did search for "rexexp", twice, and scrolled the whole conversation.
20:42:01 <GregorR> WTF?
20:42:03 <GregorR> Line game?
20:42:17 <oklopol> yeah, pretty great, ain't it
20:42:56 <ehird`> on the subject of flash games
20:42:57 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Cursor_Invisible.swf
20:44:50 <oklopol> 146
20:45:07 <oklopol> god my heart is pounding
20:45:10 <ehird`> i always get like one pixel off after 76
20:45:14 <oklopol> heh
20:45:26 <GregorR> ehird`: That game is extremely easy on a tablet PC :P
20:45:35 <oklopol> i have a touchpad
20:45:37 <ehird`> XD
20:45:40 <ehird`> you bet GregorR
20:46:18 <oklopol> hmm... why is it easy?
20:46:54 <oklopol> (GregorR) WTF?
20:46:57 <oklopol> (GregorR) Line game?
20:47:00 <oklopol> what did you mean? :D
20:47:12 <GregorR> I meant "WTF? Line game?"
20:47:21 <oklopol> ...because?
20:47:28 <oklopol> wtf @ what? :|
20:47:43 <ehird`> rrrrthats5rs.com <-- most deliberately confusing domain name ever
20:47:44 <oklopol> hmm... is there something weird @ line games?
20:47:56 <GregorR> <ehird`> also, that line game is impossible
20:48:11 <ehird`> tnhe line game oklopol linked to
20:48:17 <oklopol> http://dagobah.biz/flash/linegame.swf
20:48:26 <GregorR> Oh. Heh, missed the URL 8-X
20:49:45 <GregorR> Wow, that line game is extremely difficult.
20:50:03 <ehird`> aaaand another: http://dagobah.biz/flash/Particles.swf
20:50:04 <ehird`> and no it isn't
20:50:06 <ehird`> hint: use keyboard
20:50:08 <ehird`> and go slow
20:50:12 <ehird`> do not hold up all the time
20:50:21 <oklopol> never slow! always to the MAX
20:50:21 <GregorR> I thought there was a time limit?
20:50:26 <oklopol> nope
20:50:41 <oklopol> but you can beat your time of course
20:55:11 <oklopol> how the fuck do ppl get under 9 @ a...
20:55:51 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Smash2_final.swf crazy breakout game
20:57:32 <ehird`> (hint: you can go up and down, it's kind of like tennis)
21:04:34 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/jeu_chiant.swf Is it just me or is this impossibl;e
21:09:34 * oklopol TRIES
21:10:57 <oklopol> how many seconds do you get?
21:11:23 <ehird`> like
21:11:24 <ehird`> 7
21:11:30 <oklopol> oh
21:11:34 <oklopol> pretty easy till 30
21:12:27 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/evilpong/ < man this game rocks
21:14:08 <oklopol> i don't have a big enough resolution
21:14:10 <oklopol> :<
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21:21:40 <oklopol> GregorR: that's pretty amazing
21:22:35 <oklopol> yeah, 2 hours of flash games again, that was point-free :)
21:22:39 <oklopol> gotta eat something
21:22:43 <oklopol> ...and play some more i guess
21:22:51 <GregorR> oklopol: EVIL Pong! isn't a flash game, it's all JS :)
21:22:56 <oklopol> same thing
21:22:57 <oklopol> :)
21:23:00 <oklopol> i mean, game.
21:23:01 <GregorR> :P
21:23:13 <oklopol> also, *script, anyway
21:24:09 <oklopol> i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was...
21:31:51 <ehird`> back
21:32:53 <ehird`> GregorR: out of curiosity
21:33:07 <ehird`> why the overblown home page for a really simple JS game that will have taken about 15 minutes to make? :-)
21:35:06 <GregorR> Because it's an AWESOME simple JS game that would have taken about 15 minutes to make.
21:35:18 <oklopol> :DSDSDD
21:36:39 <ehird`> its not very hard :P
21:36:41 <ehird`> or challenging
21:36:50 <oklopol> how many points did you get?
21:36:54 <GregorR> It is when you go past the first five points.
21:37:04 <oklopol> i just got 12 :<
21:52:56 <ehird`> http://dagobah.biz/flash/Keep_an_Idiot_Busy.swf God damnit! I can't stop!
21:53:16 <ehird`> WOW
21:53:18 <ehird`> I clicked one!
21:53:53 <bsmntbombdood> what
21:54:20 <ehird`> what
21:54:54 <ehird`> when you click one it turns to 2 more times
21:54:56 <ehird`> then 1 more time
21:54:57 <ehird`> then i dont know
21:55:59 <ehird`> it disappears
21:56:01 <ehird`> now for the 2 others
21:56:17 <GregorR> Seems like another game that would be great on a tablet PC X-P
21:56:40 <ehird`> :P
21:56:41 <ehird`> try it
21:56:44 <ehird`> tell me whats at the end
21:56:56 <GregorR> <-- at work
21:57:25 <ehird`> 2 to go!
21:58:05 <ehird`> 1 to go
21:58:40 <ehird`> LAME
21:58:47 <ehird`> it just tells you that you just have too much time on your hands
22:00:12 <GregorR> Hahahhaha
22:00:21 <GregorR> Be proud :P
22:01:44 <ehird`> so who thinks this "experimental language" is a good idea
22:02:07 <ehird`> right now, it'd have as unique things: that amazing, warped TC regexp language AND many graphical features useful for games (re: oklopol)
22:02:09 <ehird`> not just for games of course
22:02:15 <ehird`> but plenty of constructs that make them easy
22:02:33 <GregorR> Experimental as in not designed to be esoteric, presumably?
22:05:36 <ehird`> esoterica will follow naturally when you have a regexp language as insane and simple graphics+input controls built right in#
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22:29:22 <ehird`> =)
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