←2008-08-01 2008-08-02 2008-08-03→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:00:47 <tusho> oh, hi oerjan the mathematician
00:00:49 <tusho> we're discussing nullity.
00:00:55 <SimonRC> it is an interesting extension to the reals
00:01:02 <tusho> SimonRC: no it's not :3
00:01:34 <oerjan> was that the one that was equal to itself or the one that wasn't?
00:01:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:01:36 <adu> i like the reals
00:01:46 <tusho> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_(computer_scientist)#Transreal_arithmetic
00:01:59 <adu> is that anything like hyperreals?
00:02:00 <ihope> oerjan: the one that is equal to itself.
00:02:39 <ihope> adu: real numbers plus... positive infinity, negative infinity, and nullity, I think it is.
00:02:48 <ihope> 1/0 = +infinity, -1/0 = -infinity, 0/0 = nullity.
00:03:11 <oerjan> right, it's the IEEE numbers which aren't
00:04:19 <adu> lololololol
00:04:33 <adu> "The report implied that Anderson had discovered the solution to division by zero, rather than simply attempting to formalize it."
00:04:52 <moozilla> anyone want to join my religion
00:04:59 <adu> moozilla: what is it?
00:05:10 <moozilla> we believe that the human race is part of an esoteric programming language created by some higher being
00:05:23 <moozilla> as an experiment
00:05:23 <adu> what does that require?
00:05:25 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:05:31 <ihope> I like it when people laugh out loud out linguistic out Larry out lol out lemma.
00:05:36 <moozilla> it requires that you do your part for the experiment
00:05:46 <moozilla> by doing what you normally would do
00:05:58 <moozilla> :P
00:06:01 <adu> uh
00:06:04 <adu> sounds lame
00:06:08 <moozilla> yeah
00:06:10 <moozilla> it is
00:06:12 <moozilla> i just made it up
00:06:29 <adu> I wouldn't subscribe to any organization that would have someone like me as a member
00:06:38 <moozilla> heh
00:06:55 <tusho> oh wow, adu paraphrased groucho marx
00:06:57 <tusho> ha ha ha ha ha.
00:07:06 <adu> :)
00:07:19 <adu> i thought it was mark twain
00:07:21 <adu> o well
00:08:47 <psygnisfive> lallallalllalalallallallalalalalllallallalalllallal
00:08:56 <adu> psygnisfive:
00:09:02 <psygnisfive> oklofok . . .
00:09:55 <oerjan> moozilla: we already did that experiment years ago. ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/39 (note slow)
00:10:01 <adu> IEEE forms a wheel
00:10:21 <adu> and transreal arith. forms a wheel
00:10:33 <adu> theres a whole subject called "wheel theory"
00:10:34 <adu> wow
00:10:35 <oerjan> adu: you've checked the axioms?
00:10:41 <adu> wha?
00:10:43 <oerjan> or someone did
00:10:53 <adu> no
00:10:59 <adu> its just at the bottom
00:11:05 <oerjan> there are axioms for wheels. i should know as i put them on the wiki page
00:11:12 <adu> oerjan: o
00:11:14 <adu> oerjan: nice
00:11:15 <lament> 1995, i wasn't even born yet
00:11:22 <lament> oerjan: for AI wheels?
00:11:32 <moozilla> oerjan: awesome
00:11:36 <adu> I wrote this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleman_matrix
00:11:38 <oerjan> what are AI wheels?
00:11:50 <lament> oerjan: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
00:12:44 <tusho> '1995, i wasn't even born yet'
00:12:46 <tusho> i was just born
00:12:47 <tusho> :P
00:13:21 <oerjan> lament: somehow i am not quite prepared to believe you
00:13:22 <SimonRC> wow, you're young
00:13:43 <oerjan> but then i barely believe tusho
00:13:53 <tusho> SimonRC: 12
00:13:54 <moozilla> 2008, i wasnt even born yet
00:14:02 <adu> i was 13 years old in 95
00:14:07 <SimonRC> bah
00:14:08 <oerjan> moozilla: ah, a fellow time traveller!
00:14:18 <moozilla> oerjan you've outed us!
00:14:21 <tusho> 13 in 20 days, though.
00:14:22 * SimonRC dislikes clever young peopole to the
00:14:25 <tusho> what a boring number, 13.
00:14:36 * SimonRC dislikes clever young people to the degree that he is envious of them
00:14:36 <tusho> 12 is a far more awesome number. it is made of awesome.
00:14:38 <adu> I once read a book by someone who lived in 2036
00:14:53 <SimonRC> adu: and?
00:14:53 <tusho> SimonRC: I cannot stand people as clever or more clever than me of a similar age
00:14:54 <moozilla> ah, but what number system is he using
00:14:59 <lament> i dislike clever young people
00:15:01 <lament> let's ban tusho!
00:15:03 <moozilla> it could be quadrinary
00:15:05 <tusho> lament: yes
00:15:07 <tusho> that asshole
00:15:27 <oerjan> moozilla: oops, better go back and change it
00:15:41 <moozilla> oerjan: too lazy atm, let's just enjoy ourselves
00:15:50 <SimonRC> how much I like people depends on how I get on with them
00:15:58 <SimonRC> (deliberate tautology)
00:16:06 <moozilla> i don't dislike clever young people since i was one once
00:16:36 <adu> SimonRC: ever since I've been trying to get access to CERN, which is where he said the beginnings of the time machine were being discovered
00:16:45 <SimonRC> heh
00:16:55 <moozilla> adu: which book?
00:17:25 <adu> http://www.amazon.com/John-Titor-Time-Travelers-Tale/dp/1591964369
00:17:32 <SimonRC> oh no not him again
00:17:57 <SimonRC> I don't beleive in "jumping" time travel.
00:18:10 <adu> he never jumped
00:18:15 <SimonRC> huh?
00:18:26 <adu> he just rode a gravity wave around for awhile, no jumping
00:18:47 <adu> like surfing
00:18:49 <SimonRC> um, gravity waves don't take you back in time
00:18:51 <adu> only theu time
00:19:10 <adu> then maybe theres a better word for it
00:19:22 <adu> I call it surfing gravity
00:19:28 <adu> call it what you want
00:19:30 <SimonRC> :rolleyes:
00:20:16 <adu> maybe other people would call it stabilizing the event horizon of a rotating massive singularity...
00:20:21 <adu> whatever
00:20:37 <moozilla> you know what pisses me off?
00:20:43 <adu> moozilla: what?
00:20:55 <moozilla> how in most movies/books about time travel they assume you can alter the past
00:21:01 <psygnisfive> are we talking about john titor?
00:21:07 <SimonRC> specifcally, I can only beleive that you can get back in time if the time machine exists at that time.
00:21:12 <moozilla> makes more sense to me that it would just split off a different timeline
00:21:34 <SimonRC> it makes most sense to me that the past and future would fit together perfectly
00:21:34 <psygnisfive> he didn't use a rotating singularity he's used a rotating cosmic string
00:21:39 <adu> moozilla: you should read John Titor's book, he dispells the granfather paradox
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00:22:02 <moozilla> i'll look into it
00:22:02 <oerjan> moozilla: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTimeTravelIsDifferent (warning, addictive website)
00:22:03 <SimonRC> the problem is, you can't get back to before the string starting rotating, or whatever it did
00:22:23 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?models
00:22:25 <tusho> conversation over
00:22:33 <moozilla> SimonRC: alright, but is it possible to travel forward
00:22:35 <psygnisfive> simonrc: ofcourse, but he didn't use a string machine built by humans
00:22:44 <SimonRC> oerjan: just a slight understatement in the warning
00:22:49 <psygnisfive> he used one discovered in M31
00:22:59 <adu> moozilla: he basically says that his time machine is a piece of sh*t, so anytime you go back with it, you're not going to your own past, but an alternate past, so you can kill the guy who looks like your grandfather, because he's not
00:23:03 <SimonRC> moozilla: yes, see futurama, S1, E1
00:23:19 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that is fine
00:23:23 <oerjan> SimonRC: hey this time i actually told what the danger was :D
00:23:41 <tusho> tvtropes is basically as addictive as everything2 to me
00:23:54 <tusho> in that I open like 10 pages in tabs for each one page I read
00:24:00 <tusho> and then click another one, etc, until I come to a dead end
00:24:01 <tusho> close that tab
00:24:04 <tusho> and move onto the first opened tab
00:24:07 <tusho> etc, ad infinitum
00:24:10 <SimonRC> imagine a road from NY to Washington DC...
00:24:33 <SimonRC> the road does not "travel" from one place to another, it *extends* from one place to another
00:24:41 <SimonRC> tusho: yup
00:24:55 <SimonRC> tusho: its a cyclic tab machine
00:24:59 <SimonRC> *rimshot*
00:25:04 <tusho> that was awful
00:25:09 <tusho> i wonder if it's TC
00:25:09 <tusho> :D
00:25:23 <psygnisfive> time travel allows hypercomputation.
00:25:23 <tusho> hmm the way I stated it was wrong
00:25:40 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that may be a good reason to disbeleive in it
00:25:52 <ihope> I considered a time travel gate in quantum mechanics, you know. It returns the value that you will put into it.
00:25:53 <tusho> go to article 1 -> click click click loads of tabs in the background -> read all of it, click an interesting link on article 1 -> (repeat) -> dead end, no more links. close tab, move onto the next one, repeat until no more tabs (note: this never happens)
00:26:04 <pikhq> Time travel makes the Infinity Machine trivial to implement, really.
00:26:18 <SimonRC> Primer is a good movie and avoids some types of bad time travel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Primer
00:26:31 <ihope> I realized that it could be used to store practically infinite amounts of data, and retrieve arbitrary practically unremarkable amounts of it.
00:26:32 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: modulo reliability
00:26:43 <ihope> I later realized it could be used to control the universe.
00:26:51 <psygnisfive> i didnt like Primer
00:27:06 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: did you watch it on DVD?
00:27:12 <psygnisfive> dont remember
00:27:15 <pikhq> ihope: Ever read the description of the Infinity Machine?
00:27:15 <psygnisfive> all i know is, i didnt like it
00:27:18 <ihope> pikhq: nope.
00:27:33 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
00:27:37 <SimonRC> I recommend other people get it on DVD, and watch the confusing bits repeatedly
00:27:47 <SimonRC> then read the explanation threads on the forums
00:27:49 <pikhq> The description of a machine which can store an infinite amount of data and do computations infinitely fast.
00:27:51 <SimonRC> then watch it some more
00:27:52 <adu> ihope: wow
00:28:00 <SimonRC> then you might understand most of it
00:28:01 <psygnisfive> i didnt find it confusing, simonrc
00:28:04 <psygnisfive> i just found it boring
00:28:05 <lament> pikhq: cool, where can i buy it?
00:28:09 <adu> ihope: can you explain that in more detail?
00:28:10 <oerjan> ihope: i vaguely recall someone did calculations with faster-than-light particles (tachyons) and QM, and found out the quantum mechanics cancel out the time travel effects - information ends up only going forward, slower than light
00:28:11 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: hm :-S
00:28:16 <pikhq> lament: It's hypothetical.
00:28:22 <ihope> Take a qubit from the time gate. CNOT it with a target qubit. Put it back in the time gate.
00:28:26 <lament> oh :(
00:28:30 <pikhq> More so than, say, a Turing Machine.
00:28:30 <SimonRC> oerjan: how does one tell which way the information is going
00:28:42 <ihope> This is consistent if and only if the target qubit is 0; therefore, it selects the possible quantum states where the target qubit is 0.
00:29:06 <psygnisfive> one model of quantum mechanics says that particles travel forward and backward in time constantly
00:29:31 <psygnisfive> antiparticles, for instance, can be see as the normal particles moving backwards through time
00:29:37 <ihope> So you could control the universe by taking camera input and selecting the possible quantum states where it's a certain image. Of course, this could just control internal error rather than external happenings.
00:29:53 <ihope> It's easy to make a cellular automaton where things move backwards in time.
00:29:58 <psygnisfive> and some models of how things like wave function collapse occur involve messenger particles travelling backwards through time
00:30:04 <SimonRC> ihope: a bugger to implement
00:30:06 <adu> what was that one time travel movie with the original superman actor?
00:30:06 <moozilla> i loved the movie primer
00:30:22 <ihope> SimonRC: use Mirek's Cellebration.
00:30:27 <SimonRC> moozilla: the model is unsucky in uncommon ways
00:30:44 <moozilla> yeah
00:30:50 <SimonRC> ihope: why doesn't simulating it require a superturing computer?
00:30:50 <moozilla> i liked the looping thing
00:31:03 <oerjan> SimonRC: well i guess it prevents any effects that could be used to send information backwards in practice, like the usual theory for why you cannot use entanglement to send information faster than light
00:32:02 <SimonRC> [Author's note: the primer model is that when the time machine turns on, your future self gets out, and in the future, you get in just as you turn the machine off.]
00:32:17 <SimonRC> oerjan: ok
00:32:19 <tusho> SimonRC: What if you turn it on and don't get in?
00:32:27 <tusho> Nothing happens?
00:32:36 <SimonRC> tusho: ah, well the timeline branches
00:32:47 <tusho> SimonRC: Or: What if you turn it on, someone comes out, and then you don't go in?
00:32:51 <oerjan> otoh i have this vague idea that maybe the strange properties of quantum mechanics are _because_ particles time travel all the time (but with this kind of censorship rule to cancel out the worst effects)
00:32:54 <tusho> Pime taradox?
00:32:58 <SimonRC> the problem with branchin timelines is that you end up with too many Hitler-assassins
00:33:18 <oerjan> oh psygnisfive already mentioned something similar
00:33:50 <adu> "Somewhere in Time"
00:33:50 <oerjan> except i thought maybe the time travel could be the cause of the other weirdness
00:33:56 <SimonRC> every time traveller causes a branch, and each of those will branch a few times before the assassin sets off, so you always end up with more assassins than you have assasins
00:33:58 <adu> gtg
00:34:01 <SimonRC> unless there are 0 of them
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00:35:02 <tusho> anyway
00:35:05 <tusho> I have my own pet time travel theory
00:35:17 <tusho> you know the regular 'you can go back, change something, return and it's all changed?'
00:35:27 <tusho> and how it requires YOU to have your own personal timeline to experience that happening?
00:35:37 <tusho> well, the idea is simple: everything has an infinite stack of timelines.
00:35:47 <SimonRC> wait, is this the one where the split timeline has a second you?
00:36:25 <SimonRC> tusho: why doesn't that have the infinite-Hitler-assassins problem?
00:36:39 <tusho> SimonRC: the idea is
00:36:41 <tusho> you experience this:
00:36:47 <tusho> go into a time machine, change shit, go back, everything's different
00:36:53 <tusho> but if you rewrote time, you'd never go in the time machine!
00:37:00 <tusho> so you must have your own personal timeline where in the past you went in the time machine
00:37:07 <moozilla> i have a similar theory
00:37:08 <tusho> my idea is that that timeline then has a timeline
00:37:10 <tusho> and so on to infinity
00:37:15 <tusho> and every particle has it
00:37:20 <tusho> instead of every conscience or whateve
00:37:20 <tusho> r
00:37:30 <moozilla> i believe there are infinite timelines
00:37:43 <moozilla> when you travel back it must be on a different timeline
00:37:46 <lament> that loop inward on each other like a giant wheel
00:37:56 <moozilla> however it would be nearly impossible to come back to the same timeline
00:38:06 <tusho> moozilla: that's a common theory.
00:38:07 <moozilla> which is why we never see time travelers
00:38:10 <tusho> it's also less interesting than mine
00:38:23 <tusho> which allows the typical fiction of omg you killed hitler everything is different
00:38:28 <tusho> while still actually being consistent
00:38:34 <oerjan> there is also the theory that says that time travel will keep changing the past until time travel ends up never being invented
00:38:36 <moozilla> i dont see why everyone would have to have their own timeline
00:38:38 <SimonRC> moozilla: that requires discrete CTCs, not continuous ones... kinda
00:38:43 <moozilla> CTC?
00:38:49 <tusho> bye for today
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00:39:11 <SimonRC> I mean, that the time machines jumps from past to future, rather than being a journey that one walks to go into the past
00:39:38 <SimonRC> the former has a point where the time traveller "arrives" from the future
00:39:39 <moozilla> ah right
00:39:53 <SimonRC> the latter has a continuous stream of air and stuff arriving from the future
00:39:55 <moozilla> i havent really theorized on HOW time travel would be accomplished
00:40:02 <moozilla> more on just the nature of time
00:40:18 <moozilla> one of my ideas is that
00:40:22 <SimonRC> well, I don't beleive in a direction of fundamental causality
00:40:45 <SimonRC> so any model that is time-assymetric is suspicious
00:40:46 <moozilla> a sort of version of quantum entanglement
00:41:03 <moozilla> where particles are entangled with particles from a different time
00:41:30 <moozilla> my understanding of entanglement is cloudy so that might be what it already is
00:41:35 <SimonRC> you can't transmit information via entanglement surely?
00:41:47 <moozilla> not intentionally
00:42:12 <moozilla> but in this model all "randomness" is essentially input from a different time
00:42:39 <oerjan> SimonRC: a recent Scientific American wrote about a new theory of quantum gravity that worked better precisely by including a direction of causality in the basics
00:42:47 <ihope> SimonRC: because it's reversible.
00:43:28 <oerjan> although it was probably still time-symmetric mathematically
00:43:53 <oerjan> (since you could just reverse all arrows)
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01:05:52 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/aliases.html
01:05:59 <pikhq> Holy shit...
01:07:53 <pikhq> So. Very. Evil.
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01:27:38 * SimonRC goes to bed.
01:28:45 <lament> bash is hairy, why am i not surprised :(
01:28:56 <lament> would be nice if bash were finally replaced by something nice
01:29:05 <lament> unfortunately the only alternative is Windows PowerShell :)
01:32:25 <pikhq> Bullshit.
01:32:30 <pikhq> Zsh.
01:32:32 <pikhq> :D
01:32:50 <ihope> Couldn't you use ash or bsh or csh or dsh or esh or fsh or gsh ot hsh or ish or jsh or ksh or lsh or msh or nsh or osh or psh or qsh or rsh or ssh or tsh or ush or vsh or wsh or xsh or ysh or zsh?
01:33:03 <ihope> Actually, using ssh as a shell is probably a bad idea.
01:33:24 <pikhq> As is using rsh.
01:33:43 <pikhq> And you'll find yourself hating ash and csh.
01:34:03 <lament> pikhq: i said something nice, not a sh-based shell
01:34:16 <ihope> Yeah, rsh is also kind of bad.
01:34:27 <ihope> I imagine GHCi is not the worst of shells.
01:34:35 <pikhq> lament: Zsh isn't sh-based.
01:34:44 <pikhq> No more than Emacs is Vi-based. :p
01:35:23 <lament> well, it's close enough :)
01:35:28 <ihope> I should learn emacs.
01:35:41 <ihope> The only reason I use vi is that I know how it works.
01:35:48 <lament> all these shell have decades of backwards-compatibility cruft in them
01:35:58 <ihope> Press i and boom, Notepad! And then you have fancy commands like c5l.
01:36:13 <ihope> :wq to save and exit, :q! to exit without saving...
01:38:27 <pikhq> The Z shell has a ridiculous amount of features, BTW...
01:38:36 <lament> of coures
01:38:39 <lament> so does bash
01:38:47 <pikhq> "Because zsh contains many features, the zsh manual has been split into a number of sections:"
01:39:23 <lament> when a program contains a ridiculous amount of features, the features will start interacting in curious and unexpected ways
01:39:28 <lament> like functions and aliases :)
01:41:58 <pikhq> Its emulation of other shells is enabled by runtime configuration options.
01:42:14 <lament> haha
01:42:34 <pikhq> The Z shell is basically the Emacs of shells.
01:43:38 <ihope> Hmm, I just realized that I haven't actually designed that artificial intelligence language. I should do so.
01:44:24 <ihope> I now further realize that my idea for the language so far has no room for analog signal processing.
01:46:02 * oerjan sort of expected emacs to be the emacs of shells
01:46:38 * ihope rectifies oerjan for using "/me" as a substitute for "I"
01:47:03 * oerjan refuses to be rectified
01:47:24 * oerjan are not amused
01:47:33 * ihope attempts to make oerjan say something outside of a /me
01:47:55 * oerjan laughs at ihope's pitiful tries
01:49:46 * oerjan wonders if there is a way to have his irc client translate i to /me automatically. it would need to do something about verb inflection, also.
01:51:25 * oerjan reverses the polarity
01:52:06 <oerjan> *jumps up and down*
01:52:26 <oerjan> *cackles evilly*
01:59:01 <moozilla> what irc client?
01:59:11 <moozilla> fairly sure its simple to do with something like mIRC
01:59:19 * oerjan utilizes irssi
02:00:36 * oerjan would probably not actually endeavor to utilize a solution, if one were to be presented.
02:00:59 * oerjan also is somewhat a fan of Varsuuvius from OOTS
02:01:37 * moozilla is usually too lazy to type /me
02:44:02 <pikhq> oerjan: You know, Zsh *has an editor*.
02:44:27 <oerjan> ah.
02:44:50 <pikhq> And a tetris implementation.
02:45:03 <oerjan> what about an irc client?
02:45:09 <pikhq> No.
02:45:15 <pikhq> But it does have an FTP client.
02:45:45 <oerjan> it does sound ... promising
02:45:54 <pikhq> And since it has builtin handling of network I/O, one could probably write an IRC client for it trivially.
02:55:13 <ihope> I want to write a Proce-to-electronics compiler.
02:56:55 <pikhq> Oh, it also tends to byte-compile shell functions.
02:57:14 <psygnisfive> tusho, you here?
02:58:18 <oerjan> <01:38 tusho> bye for today
02:58:49 <oerjan> (now 03:58)
03:05:43 <psygnisfive> lametusho
03:05:54 <psygnisfive> anyone here use a mac? or know ruby?
03:05:55 <ihope> Memo him.
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03:11:09 <Sgeo> Hi futilius
03:11:14 <futilius> hey
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> I'm vaguely familiar with Ruby
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> don't use it a lot though
03:18:18 <futilius> is that an esoteric satire of perl?
03:20:27 <psygnisfive> cakeprophet: PMs.
03:20:41 <ihope> Ello.
03:21:10 <ihope> Are you familiar with functional programming? I think Unlambda is what introduced me to it. :-)
03:22:11 <psygnisfive> futilius: Ruby is far from esoteric
03:24:05 <oerjan> RUBE on the other hand
03:27:17 <pikhq> I disagree. Ruby damned well should be esoteric.
03:27:17 <pikhq> :p
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03:27:24 <psygnisfive> why?
03:27:27 <pikhq> oerjan: RUBE is just plain brilliant, of course.
03:27:32 <psygnisfive> do you know ruby at all btw?
03:27:39 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Because I don't like it, and what I don't like is esoteric.
03:27:40 <pikhq> :p
03:27:48 <psygnisfive> why dont you like it
03:28:00 <pikhq> Honestly, it's not that bad of a language. . .
03:28:10 <psygnisfive> i take it you know it then
03:28:15 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
03:28:42 <pikhq> I just don't like its little 'object oriented *everywhere*' shit and its syntax isn't something I'm all to fond of.
03:29:39 <lament> ruby is suck.
03:29:42 <lament> python is suck.
03:29:48 <pikhq> Tcl is win.
03:29:51 <lament> both are good enough, though.
03:29:56 <lament> i don't think tcl is good enough.
03:30:14 <pikhq> How familiar are you with Tcl?
03:30:18 <lament> not very.
03:30:20 <psygnisfive> i dislike tcl
03:30:24 <psygnisfive> it seems disjointed
03:30:28 <lament> i know that everything is a string in it.
03:30:45 <pikhq> I especially enjoy doing radical language modification in it.
03:30:49 <lament> a language based on such an idiotic premise can't be very good.
03:30:57 <pikhq> (that, BTW, was the implementation technique for PEBBLE)
03:31:00 <ihope> Quantum Proce is the future!
03:31:49 <pikhq> BTW, typically in Tcl implementations, not everything is a string. . .
03:31:55 <pikhq> Everything just has a string representation.
03:32:53 <psygnisfive> pikhq: pms.
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04:42:59 * ihope attempts to find what tusho said about returning to rootnomic
04:43:22 <ihope> I remember one of the conditions was a sane proposal system.
04:44:21 <ihope> The other... wasn't a justice system, surely. adduser proposals?
04:44:52 <ihope> I suppose he's gone with the "long life" approach. And with that, it's bedtime, so good night, ding ding ding, etc.
04:45:46 <pikhq> Night.
04:51:12 <ihope> (Archytas' 1/3-tone, minor semitone, minor diatonic semitone, major diatonic semitone, minor whole tone, middle second, major whole tone, septimal whole tone...)
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04:59:44 <pikhq> That's just a terrible description of the LotR: "Frodo and friends go on a quest to *find* a magic ring."
04:59:54 <Sgeo> oO where?
04:59:54 * pikhq mutters about bad newspaper reporting.
05:00:11 <pikhq> Reading tvtropes.
05:00:13 <pikhq> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CowboyBebopAtHisComputer
05:00:57 <moozilla> that is a bad description
05:01:21 <moozilla> how about "halfing and crew go on epic quest to destroy a mystical ring"
05:03:57 <pikhq> See, that would be accurate.
05:04:09 <pikhq> Except s/halfing/hobbit/
05:04:10 <pikhq> :p
05:04:21 <pikhq> This is Arda, not D&D.
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05:06:40 <moozilla> I'm pretty sure they use "halfing" in the LoTR books
05:06:51 <moozilla> halfing and hobbit are interchangable afaik
05:07:41 <pikhq> Not that I recall.
05:07:52 <pikhq> Though it has been a while since I read LotR.
05:07:56 <moozilla> same
05:42:04 <oklofok> 00:54… ihope: The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave. <<< this is just latin for 0-12
05:42:09 <oklofok> hmm
05:42:12 <oklofok> ihope isn't here
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06:04:20 <oklofok> awesome, logs ended!
06:04:35 <oklofok> i have my own theory about time travel too
06:04:39 <oklofok> it's fucking bullcrap
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06:11:41 <psygnisfive> oklofok
06:11:47 <psygnisfive> i want to have your babies
06:14:18 <oklofok> <3
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06:21:35 <psygnisfive> oklofok, do you know any ruby?
06:33:08 <oklofok> i've made a bot in it
06:33:34 <oklofok> i'm leaving for 5 days in 3 hours
06:33:49 <oklofok> so if anyone else wants my babies, time is running out.
06:41:12 <oklofok> oh btw, as i like promoting things everyone else hates, i've had this computer about 4 months or something, i don't think vista has crashed *once* so that i'd had to reboot.
06:41:47 <oklofok> vista <3
06:42:29 <oklofok> but oh god this is a crappy system, i just spent ages trying to save a file in adobe reader, the reason i couldn't was that the window limit was already full, so i couldn't open to save window :D
06:42:59 <oklofok> but there's no message, window creation just silently errors out :-)
06:48:19 <oklofok> i'd understand like a limit of a million windows
06:48:30 <oklofok> but i have only like a hundred open
06:48:48 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
07:18:45 <oklopol> well aren't you a quiet bunch
07:22:43 <CakeProphet> ...
07:22:49 <CakeProphet> I am trying to figure out
07:22:53 <CakeProphet> how unions could be useful.
07:22:58 <CakeProphet> (of the C variety)
07:24:35 <CakeProphet> ...oh lawl... I see.
07:25:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol
07:25:53 <psygnisfive> where are you going?
07:29:59 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm a scout :-)
07:30:03 <oklopol> scouting things
07:30:22 <psygnisfive> you're a scout?
07:30:25 <psygnisfive> like a boyscout?
07:30:32 <oklopol> right ya
07:32:53 <oklopol> o
07:33:14 <oklopol> i'll do some going now, although i may still return in a few hours ->
07:34:49 <CakeProphet> hmmm... it's kind of lame that C unions require you to point to names.
07:34:55 <CakeProphet> isntead of just like
07:35:02 <oklopol> oh unions.
07:35:05 <oklopol> i read onions
07:35:27 <CakeProphet> union {int; char *;} var;
07:35:30 <CakeProphet> var = "lol";
07:35:35 <oklopol> thought that was some complex C term for some kind of inheritance
07:35:36 <CakeProphet> var = 0;
07:35:38 <CakeProphet> ...
07:35:38 <oklopol> you know, layers and shit
07:35:42 <CakeProphet> rofl
07:35:57 <oklopol> :))))))
07:35:58 <oklopol> ->
07:38:14 <CakeProphet> is there some way in C to like... write functions for structs that have similar attributes.
07:38:24 <CakeProphet> so I don't have to, for example, write the same linked list code for like 4 billion different things.
07:42:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i demand photos of you in boyscout uniform
07:42:54 <psygnisfive> especially if you have to wear really short shorts
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08:21:28 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
08:21:33 <psygnisfive> you! short shorts! now!
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08:26:32 <Marc56435345> Hola a todos.
08:26:54 <Marc56435345> Soy el bot 45688FDS1-87
08:27:16 <Marc56435345> CONEXIN INICIALIZADA - AO 2089
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08:38:22 <oklopol> CakeProphet: yeah it's called use a real language
08:38:53 <CakeProphet> rofl, yeah.
08:39:25 <oklopol> i don't get all this praising c as the portable assembly, it's a retarded language, that's all it is.
08:42:09 <oklopol> anyway C has pointers
08:42:22 <oklopol> so it's easy to make a generic linked list thingie
08:42:30 <oklopol> thinguloid in this case ofc
09:01:04 <oklopol> psygnisfive: were egobot here, i could perhaps give you a 1% chance of getting pics for sparse requests.
09:01:25 <oklopol> but, anyways, bye ->
09:12:42 <CakeProphet> ...I'm assuming he meant like void pointers or something.
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11:56:05 <Tritonio_> hello
11:56:59 <tusho> hi
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12:56:07 <KingOfKarlsruhe> thats cool python :) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81013/
12:57:24 <tusho> no
12:57:27 <tusho> lolcode is a travesty
12:57:30 <tusho> this "lolpython" is a travesty
12:57:36 <tusho> and liking it is a travesty
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14:18:42 * tusho makes notes of possible domain alts to ephemera.org which is taken: pentagenia.org
14:20:00 <AnMaster> hm
14:20:17 * AnMaster decides to *not* register it
14:20:35 <tusho> AnMaster: i do believe you want to be an eso member
14:20:42 <tusho> (that there was a threat :) )
14:20:44 <AnMaster> tusho, haha
14:21:05 <AnMaster> as it costs money I would never do it anyway
14:21:23 <tusho> anyhoo, it's a genus containing one species (pentagenia robusta), which is an extinct type of mayfly
14:21:26 <tusho> and mayflies are ephemeral
14:21:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure of the English word.... but in Swedish I would say I'm "snål"
14:21:41 <AnMaster> as in extremely much don't want to waste money
14:21:47 <AnMaster> not sure of the English word
14:21:52 <tusho> AnMaster: cheap? ;)
14:22:21 <AnMaster> think Scrooge (spelling?) from that classical story, "A Christmas carol"(?)
14:22:33 <tusho> scrooge is the right spelling
14:22:38 <tusho> and that's the right name
14:23:00 * tusho ponders on the opposite of ephemera
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14:26:47 <tusho> halo pakihq
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14:37:44 <pikhq> Halo.
14:39:31 <tusho> pikhq: what do you think of pentagenia.org as a domain
14:39:39 <tusho> just in general domainular terms.
14:42:16 <pikhq> Meh.
14:42:22 <pikhq> Could be interesting.
14:42:52 <tusho> pikhq: I wanted ephemera.org but it's taken
14:43:14 <tusho> mayflies are ephemerical -> pentagenia robusta is an extinct species of mayfly -> the pentagenia genus contains only that species
14:43:29 <pikhq> Robusta.
14:43:49 <tusho> ... is not a very aesthetically pleasing name
14:43:54 <tusho> it makes me think of rust for some reason
14:44:07 <tusho> also, robusta.org is taken
14:45:53 <pikhq> Aww.
14:47:50 <tusho> if only photographers all died.
14:47:54 <tusho> then I could have ephemera.org.
14:51:08 <tusho> pikhq: Any related-to-ephemera domain names you can think of? The synonyms are all boring or taken.
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15:18:42 <ihope> If you write that proposal system, they will die! :-P
15:21:13 <tusho> ihope: <.<
15:21:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, any progress on your Def-BF implementation
15:21:31 <AnMaster> ?
15:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, or on the bison file?
15:22:52 <pikhq> None.
15:22:55 <pikhq> None at all.
15:23:01 <AnMaster> oh well...
15:23:08 * tusho is trying to find a big image of old paper-sorta
15:23:12 <tusho> like old maps and similar
15:23:25 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you plan to use it for?
15:23:52 <tusho> AnMaster: for pentagenia.org/whatever, /attic/ will be used to store common images, stylesheets etc
15:24:00 <AnMaster> k
15:24:02 <tusho> going to just /attic/ I have "Here Be Dragons"
15:24:07 <tusho> i'd like to put some old paper behind that
15:24:15 <AnMaster> so how is botte going?
15:24:24 <tusho> quite well, the actual implementation will be trivial
15:24:35 <tusho> it's just the making sure it can handle stuff
15:24:38 <tusho> which I've mostly got worked out
15:25:23 <AnMaster> blergh this old P3 got larger CPU cache than my modern 64-bit Sempron :(
15:25:32 <AnMaster> (256 kb vs. 128 kb)
15:28:17 <pikhq> Semprons are notable for having a low amount of cache. :p
15:28:22 <AnMaster> yeah :(
15:28:35 <tusho> bah, I found some good old paper
15:28:37 <tusho> but it doesn't tile
15:31:49 * ihope steals WordPress's Terms of Service
15:32:14 <tusho> ihope: For normish?
15:32:15 <tusho> That makes no sense.
15:32:28 <ihope> Well, it needs some sort of Terms of Service.
15:32:41 <tusho> Yes but it's meaningless just to pick one.
15:32:53 <tusho> I'll draft one around the same time as my proposal system, prob'ly.
15:32:57 <ihope> Okay.
15:33:12 * ihope plucks out unimportant bits and ponders things to be added
15:33:12 <tusho> "Don't be stupid, don't be evil" will probably suffice in the meanterm
15:33:12 <tusho> :P
15:33:29 <ihope> Don't be stupid, don't be evil, and don't sue us.
15:34:08 <tusho> Also, don't follow the terms of service.
15:41:09 <ihope> Hmm. It turns out the WordPress Terms of Service just aren't very good for a thing such as Normish.
15:41:20 <tusho> Zomg rly. :P
15:41:30 <tusho> But to be honest I doubt you need one right now, due to the complete lack of people.
15:41:49 <ihope> True. I might as well be working on something while you're slaving away at that proposal system, though.
15:42:01 <tusho> ihope: Write a theme song.
15:42:24 <tusho> Nooooormish! It's norma-norma-normish! Normish all day, normish all night, amending itself until it's right! Noooooooooooooormishhhhhhhhhh!
15:43:14 <tusho> ihope: No?
15:44:11 -!- Hiato has joined.
15:46:27 <ihope> Sounds like that recording my friends made for me.
15:46:34 <ihope> It was them enthusiastically repeating my name. :-D
15:50:15 <ihope> A slogan, perhaps.
15:51:53 <ihope> "The free* website that anyone can edit**. (*Most parts of the website are free to access.) (**Registration required. Some parts of the website may be closed to editing to some users.)"
15:53:50 <tusho> ihope: shall I explain the tune of my jingle
15:53:57 <ihope> Yes.
15:54:38 <tusho> AAaaaaauu! Ia nanananana! da da da du, da da da du, da da da da du da da da! Daladaladaldaldaldaldaldda!
15:54:41 <tusho> To the above lyrics.
15:55:05 <ihope> Sounds Katamari Damacyy.
15:55:51 <tusho> ihope: No, more 80s-90s jingle/theme song.
16:38:43 <AnMaster> tusho, when you get an idea is it "I got it!" or "I have it!" that is the correct English exclamation?
16:38:53 <tusho> AnMaster: I've got it!
16:38:58 <tusho> (I have got it)
16:39:01 <AnMaster> ah...
16:39:02 <tusho> so, it's both
16:39:02 <tusho> :P
16:39:05 <tusho> brb
16:39:06 <AnMaster> hahh
17:09:45 <ihope> tusho: should we discuss the Terms of Service at all, or shall we just complain about them when the time comes? :-)
17:09:58 <tusho> ihope: :D
17:10:29 <tusho> AnMaster: informally, 'Got it' is common
17:11:03 <ihope> I think we should say that by submitting your code, you certify that we may use it unless you state otherwise somehow, and you agree that we may use it.
17:11:51 <tusho> ihope: When I write it, it'll involve all your code being public domain
17:12:04 <ihope> Sounds good.
17:12:08 <tusho> or if that's legally impossible, giving everyone the right to do anything with it
17:12:40 <ihope> "You certify that it's public-domain-etc unless you state otherwise, and you agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:12:49 <ihope> Hmm, no.
17:12:56 <tusho> No.
17:12:59 <tusho> don't give them a choice
17:13:12 <tusho> anyway 'certify that it's public domain' is more-or-less meaningless
17:13:14 <ihope> Well, if they submit their own stuff, they agree that it's public domain no matter what.
17:13:41 <ihope> I take it there's no law saying that you can't certify something false, then.
17:14:08 <tusho> It's just that it isn't very meaningful
17:14:13 <tusho> anyway public domain is invalid in a lot of places
17:14:14 <tusho> I'll think about it
17:14:37 <ihope> Forget the certify, then. "You agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:14:45 <tusho> That is also pretty meaningless...
17:15:00 <ihope> "You make it public-domain-etc, if possible"?
17:16:43 <ihope> More legalesey: "By submitting content to the Server, you agree that it is in the public domain, or, if this is not legally possible, that anyone may use it for any purpose to the maximum extent that is legally possible."
17:16:59 <tusho> It's still terrible wording.
17:17:03 <tusho> Anyway I'd drop PD entirely
17:17:08 <tusho> and use the cc-pd wordin
17:17:08 <tusho> g
17:18:47 <ihope> Yeah.
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18:03:38 <tusho> lost the game
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18:15:30 <tusho> Wow. I seem to have 1 million dollars.
18:15:31 <tusho> Who wants it?
18:17:55 <tusho> Nobody at all?
18:20:00 <tusho> 1 million dollars and nobody wants it? Is that right?
18:20:53 <tusho> ihope: not even you?
18:21:11 <ihope> I do.
18:21:39 <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
18:21:50 <ihope> Yay.
18:21:52 <tusho> All I have to do now is find out how to convert Zimbabwean dollars to US dollars...
18:21:53 <tusho> :D
18:22:28 <tusho> who saw that coming
18:22:29 <tusho> <.<
18:22:39 <ihope> Me. :-P
18:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, I can help you with that
18:24:02 <tusho> ihope: Exactly that?
18:24:12 <tusho> Zimbabwean dollars? If so, you win a cookie.
18:24:17 <tusho> AnMaster: :P
18:24:19 <AnMaster> just scan the front and the back of your ID cards and send the scans to me
18:24:20 <AnMaster> !
18:24:26 <AnMaster> ;P
18:24:42 <tusho> :D
18:25:00 <ihope> So, you have... what, ZWD 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000--no, I figured it might be a much less valuable currency also called a dollar.
18:25:01 <AnMaster> also your bank details
18:25:09 <tusho> oh, and for any uncultured people who don't know anything about the world and don't need up with the news, USD$1 = Z$1,000,000
18:25:27 <AnMaster> tusho, ouch that is bad inflation
18:25:28 <tusho> approx
18:25:37 <tusho> AnMaster: est. 9,000,000% or so
18:25:38 <tusho> I believe
18:25:51 <AnMaster> tusho, per year?
18:25:55 <tusho> AnMaster: not sure
18:25:59 <tusho> they print Z$1bn notes, though
18:26:09 <ihope> Doesn't matter; the currency will be worthless eventually.
18:26:24 <AnMaster> they should try to make it go stable and then redefine in a new currency
18:26:30 <AnMaster> so you have sane values
18:26:46 <tusho> AnMaster: zimbabwean is run by a dictator
18:26:48 <tusho> pretty much.
18:26:52 <tusho> *zimbabwe
18:27:05 <AnMaster> Mugabe iirc?
18:27:09 <tusho> yep
18:27:18 <tusho> somehow I don't think a racist dictator who uses violence and plain ignoring of election results to stay in power cares much about the currency
18:28:20 <ihope> There was a video clip of a guy with a bucket of pennies, offering people to take some.
18:28:58 * tusho notes another domain: percolation.org
18:29:07 <tusho> I think I like percolation.org more than pentagenia.org
18:29:19 <tusho> it's also more unique than ephemera i think
18:29:33 <tusho> first result = wikipedia article
18:29:34 <tusho> always a good sign
18:29:39 <tusho> comments?
18:30:21 <ihope> Nope.
18:30:38 <ihope> Type it into a domain name service and watch it get registered before your very eyes.
18:31:19 <tusho> ihope: That's money. I want to make sure first. :P
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18:31:57 * ihope tests
18:32:09 <tusho> ?
19:03:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:03:19 <asiekierka> helo
19:03:26 <tusho> hi asiekierka
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Hi asiekierka
19:14:08 <tusho>
19:15:04 <psygnisfive> tushooo
19:18:03 <tusho> psygnisfiveeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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19:19:38 * Sgeo actually managed to go too far in a fractal program
19:19:47 <psygnisfive> tusho, you know ruby right?
19:19:52 <tusho> of course
19:19:59 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
19:20:28 <tusho> What is it?
19:20:42 <psygnisfive> pms
19:42:15 <SimonRC> pre-menstural syndrome?
19:42:28 <SimonRC> or plural of PM?
19:43:20 <tusho> latter
19:43:24 <psygnisfive> former
19:43:29 <psygnisfive> tusho's a girl, you know.
19:43:34 <tusho> shut up psygnisfive
19:43:40 <tusho> it wasn't funny the first time, it still isn't funny
19:43:43 <psygnisfive> he'll be a woman soon, and PMS will be a rather important issue
19:43:54 <psygnisfive> btw, your birthday is the 22 right?
19:43:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: just shut the fuck up. and yes.
19:44:04 <psygnisfive> ok.
19:44:48 * SimonRC wonders what evidence psygnisfive has for that claim.
19:45:20 <psygnisfive> what evidence that tusho is a girl?
19:45:26 <SimonRC> yeah
19:45:39 <tusho> SimonRC: he's just doing it to annoy me.
19:45:40 <tusho> ignore him.
19:45:44 <psygnisfive> firstly, none, its just humorous remarks based on his appearance and voice
19:45:52 <psygnisfive> secondly, by. :D
19:45:56 <psygnisfive> bye
19:46:00 <tusho> psygnisfive: humorous to one person - you
19:46:36 <SimonRC> you don't know each other IRL do you?
19:46:50 <psygnisfive> were lovers
19:46:52 <psygnisfive> bye
19:47:10 <tusho> SimonRC: no.
19:47:33 <SimonRC> ok
19:52:35 <tusho> pentagenia.org, percolation.org... /me continues considering alternatives to ephemera.org
19:52:46 <tusho> (Hmm. Roughly (exactly?) the same length and starting with p.)
19:52:49 <asiekierka> I want to create a NOISC
19:52:54 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
19:52:55 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:52:59 <SimonRC> lol
19:53:05 <asiekierka> I will make it as such
19:53:23 <tusho> asiekierka: when you look at programs, do they eat the screen space around them?
19:53:27 <tusho> do they run in negative time?
19:53:31 <asiekierka> i will explain
19:53:33 <asiekierka> there is...
19:53:34 <tusho> I'd love to have programs finish running before I start them
19:53:43 <asiekierka> One instruction that sure as heck doesn't exist in the language: a form of finishing the program
19:53:51 <asiekierka> So we dont know any instructions
19:53:54 <asiekierka> we only know what isnt
19:54:11 <asiekierka> Who'll now make an app for it?
19:54:37 <asiekierka> You use any instructions
19:54:43 <asiekierka> except a form of finishing the program
19:55:21 <tusho> heh
19:55:28 <tusho> that's actually infinite instructions..
19:55:44 <tusho> anyway here's my program
19:55:45 <tusho> HW
19:55:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what language is it?
19:55:52 <asiekierka> "NOISC"
19:55:53 <tusho> that is the "hello world then halt" instruction
19:56:02 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:56:11 <AnMaster> oh?
19:56:13 <AnMaster> sounds fun
19:56:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it's actually infinite instructions
19:56:16 <asiekierka> We only know what command isn't surely there
19:56:20 <tusho> he just specified one instruction that isnt there
19:56:20 <asiekierka> Also, tusho...
19:56:23 <tusho> and says that every other will work.
19:56:31 <asiekierka> I said "form of finishing a program" is banned
19:56:35 <asiekierka> ANYTHING counts
19:56:37 <tusho> asiekierka: no, you said one instruction was banned
19:56:39 <asiekierka> even crashes/halts.
19:56:43 <tusho> my instruction is "hello world & halt"
19:56:45 <tusho> not "halt"
19:56:49 <asiekierka> any form of finishing the program
19:57:00 <asiekierka> also, you can't combine instructions
19:57:00 <tusho> then it's even less like a -1 instruction set computer
19:57:04 <tusho> you can only ban one instruction.
19:57:09 <tusho> not one bit of functionality.
19:57:15 <asiekierka> -1 instruction set computer. Haha.
19:57:25 <asiekierka> Hahaha.
19:57:28 <asiekierka> Hahahahahaahahahaha.
19:57:33 <asiekierka> Muahaahahaha!
19:57:50 <tusho> What.
19:58:16 <asiekierka> I said it's an negative one instruction set computer. See? I say the set is "anything with a halt/crash/finishing the program"
19:58:37 <tusho> Then it's a negative infinity instruction set computer.
19:58:42 <tusho> There are infinite instructions which can halt.
19:58:47 <tusho> There's also infinite "other instructions".
19:58:52 <tusho> So it's -inf+inf instruction set computer.
19:59:09 <asiekierka> let's not complicate it too much
19:59:11 <asiekierka> PLEASE.
19:59:21 <asiekierka> Just call it NOISC and that's all.
20:00:01 <tusho> No.
20:00:04 <tusho> It's not very interesting.
20:00:10 <asiekierka> But NOISC sounds cool
20:00:21 <tusho> It's "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, apart from everything that halts the program"
20:00:26 <tusho> It's not negative instructions, it's just silly.
20:00:51 <asiekierka> ok
20:01:03 <asiekierka> so it'll be -I+IISC
20:01:16 <asiekierka> or EITW_afethtp
20:02:27 <tusho> But it's not implementable, usable, interesting, or hard, or anything really
20:02:52 <asiekierka> what about a IIC
20:02:56 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction CPU
20:03:28 <asiekierka> oh
20:03:28 <asiekierka> of
20:03:29 <asiekierka> or
20:03:33 <asiekierka> i meant, or.
20:03:39 <asiekierka> OR IIuHC
20:03:46 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction un-Haltable CPU
20:04:56 <AnMaster> hm
20:42:16 <tusho> brb
20:46:46 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Rule 2 is false. 2. If Rule 1 is true, Rule 3 is false. 3. If i'm false, rule 2 is false too..
21:01:15 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is true. This means rule 2 is false, meaning Rules 1 and 3 are both true.
21:01:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Every rule but this one is true. 2. I'm false, while rule 1 is true.
21:02:13 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is false. This means rule 2 is true, but we already knew that. If rule 3 is false, it's false but 2 is true; if it's true, no consequence.
21:02:45 <ihope> Now that's inconsistent.
21:02:51 <tusho> asiekierka
21:02:53 <tusho> not this again
21:03:03 <tusho> this is the second time you've made stupid "self-contradicting" rulesets
21:03:07 <tusho> and spammed the channel with them
21:03:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Tusho is always right. 2. If tusho is right, Rule 1 is false..
21:03:37 <tusho> No asiekierka.
21:03:38 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged..
21:03:39 <tusho> Stop.
21:03:42 <tusho> Thanks.
21:03:43 <SimonRC> lol
21:03:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly la--you mean SPAMMED..
21:04:21 <tusho> factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly.
21:04:25 -!- tusho has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly..
21:04:41 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:06:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:09:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:19:29 <AnMaster> I got nfs working \o/
21:26:07 <Tritonio_> ihope
21:33:27 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity. | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:33:38 <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it...
21:35:25 -!- tusho has set topic: HTTP://VJN.CC/X <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it....
21:35:34 <Tritonio_> :-D
21:36:47 -!- Corun has joined.
21:45:28 <tusho> here's the deal: change the topic to the line your client outputs to tell you i've changed the topic
21:45:30 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:43 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:59 <Tritonio_> do you need the asterisc too?
21:47:07 <tusho> sure
21:47:12 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x" by Tritonio_..
21:47:15 -!- SimonRC has set topic: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:16 <Tritonio_> the timestamp which i ignored?
21:47:18 <SimonRC> oops
21:47:21 <tusho> 'sok SimonRC
21:47:26 <tusho> Tritonio_: don't put in timestamps
21:47:26 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:41 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_..
21:48:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:34 <Tritonio_> we should do a poll to see where we come from... Something like that (put website name here, the default is frap) map that used to be...
21:49:51 <tusho> whoa ... symbolics.com was the first domain name
21:49:53 <SimonRC> that is probably still about
21:49:54 <tusho> yes, the lisp machine symbolics
21:49:56 <tusho> and it still exists
21:50:04 <Tritonio_> tusho, ??????????????????
21:50:11 <tusho> Tritonio_: what
21:50:40 <Tritonio_> what lisp machine symbolics??? :-D
21:50:48 <Tritonio_> oooooo
21:50:50 <Tritonio_> sorry
21:50:55 <Tritonio_> missed a line.... ;-)
21:51:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:57:49 <oerjan> <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
21:57:59 <tusho> what
21:58:21 <oerjan> you _are_ aware that they stripped 10 digits off Z$ just yesterday?
21:58:41 <oerjan> so that could be more expensive than you thought
21:58:50 <tusho> oerjan: oh dear
21:59:05 <tusho> oerjan: i wasn't aware, no
21:59:29 -!- ihope has set topic: tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:46 -!- ihope has set topic: =-=tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:55 <oerjan> otoh 100 million wasn't enough to buy bread, last i recall
21:59:55 <tusho> oerjan: so how much do I owe ihope
22:00:01 <oerjan> hm
22:01:18 <oerjan> google doesn't seem to do ZWD
22:01:43 <oerjan> so now, 10 Z$ still isn't enough to buy bread i assume
22:01:57 <oerjan> er wait
22:02:01 <oerjan> 100 billion
22:02:41 <SimonRC> yes
22:02:43 <tusho> ok, so it's probably like £10
22:02:54 <tusho> no wait
22:02:57 <tusho> much less
22:03:01 <SimonRC> yes
22:03:29 <tusho> dudes, let's go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_Island
22:03:31 <tusho> :D
22:05:37 <oerjan> official rate 7.58 on Aug 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Third_Dollar_2)
22:06:02 <tusho> oh. err.
22:06:04 <tusho> that's quite a lot then
22:06:32 <oerjan> so 1000000 Z$ probably was then about 131000 USD
22:06:42 <tusho> fuck.
22:06:46 <oerjan> although the _real_ rate is higher
22:07:28 <oerjan> 61 it says
22:07:32 <oerjan> (today)
22:08:01 <oerjan> 16393 USD
22:10:33 <oerjan> bouvet island is norwegian btw
22:11:08 <SimonRC> that would just be the greatest place to have a domain
22:11:24 <SimonRC> why doesn't it use .no anyway?
22:12:14 <oerjan> beats me. it's so remote even norwegians rarely think about it :D
22:12:14 <tusho> we should establish "esoterica" on bouvet island
22:12:25 <tusho> and claim independence from norway
22:12:30 <tusho> and take over the domain
22:12:41 <tusho> and ummm try and survive on the most remote island in the world while freezing to death
22:12:43 <tusho> and then die!
22:12:53 <oerjan> sounds like a plan to me
22:16:45 <oerjan> here's something relevant: http://www.norid.no/domenenavnbaser/bv-sj.html
22:17:37 <oerjan> presumably it has something to do with its being a territory and not a part of the kingdom proper.
22:18:03 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
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22:20:04 <SimonRC> surely setting up a mad scientist base out there is more fun?
22:20:15 <tusho> SimonRC: we could do that before dying
22:21:11 <oerjan> mad scientists could even do it afterwards
22:21:24 <oerjan> Brains...
22:21:57 <oerjan> although there may be a shortage of (human) brains on the island
22:22:31 <SimonRC> all one needs to do that is a plan to take over the world and a large amount of money
22:23:20 <tusho> urghhh
22:23:23 <tusho> stupid Agora.
22:23:29 <tusho> thinking speech acts have truth values
22:23:53 <SimonRC> explain?
22:23:57 <tusho> even michael norrish posted to say that they're all wrong
22:24:10 <tusho> SimonRC: they are stating that actions like
22:24:13 <tusho> "I transfer X to Y"
22:24:16 <tusho> have defined truth values
22:24:22 <tusho> this is relvant because until recently there was a rule stating
22:24:29 <tusho> that you can't make a statement that you don't believe to be true to a public forum
22:24:39 <tusho> this is outrageous - it means that failing actions are illegal
22:24:53 <tusho> so i've just been decided GUILTY for a failing action
22:25:13 <tusho> that rule was repealed, but CFJs apply to when they were called
22:25:18 <SimonRC> what tense did you say it in?
22:25:44 <tusho> SimonRC: it was "I register" (long story)
22:25:55 <SimonRC> ah
22:26:02 <SimonRC> ok
22:26:11 <tusho> oerjan played Agora, maybe he can share in my outrage
22:26:48 * SimonRC tries to remember what that is called
22:27:10 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! does this help?
22:27:19 <SimonRC> maybe that tense/mood/case doesn't have a name; one only encounters it in role-playing and the like, usually
22:27:29 <tusho> oerjan: depends, was it sincere
22:27:35 <oerjan> no
22:27:48 <tusho> oerjan: then no
22:27:53 <oerjan> aww
22:29:15 <oerjan> SimonRC: i vaguely recall having heard a name. but not what it was. :D
22:29:57 <oerjan> maybe it was in agora
22:29:58 * SimonRC just asked elsenet
22:30:43 <oerjan> oh, maybe it was just "speech acts"
22:31:10 <tusho> oerjan: do you agree that they don't have truth values?
22:31:18 <tusho> and that being punished for a failing action is redonkulous
22:32:01 <oerjan> wp leads on from "speech acts" to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illocutionary_act
22:35:05 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance which in fact discusses this true/false question!
22:35:40 <SimonRC> other things that were suggested elsenet: present, Narrative tense, roleplayative
22:35:49 <SimonRC> handy
22:36:23 * tusho wonders if oerjan is still subscribed to the agora lists
22:36:31 * tusho wonders if -anyone- has been subscribed since 1993 continuously
22:37:11 <oerjan> i'm technically subscribed, but only the backup lists are set to deliver
22:37:37 <tusho> heh
22:37:42 <tusho> why the backups?
22:38:04 <oerjan> just for the occasional nostalgic reminder i guess
22:38:17 <tusho> the backups were used a few months ago
22:38:17 <tusho> iirc
22:38:28 <oerjan> yes
22:38:48 <SimonRC> "backups"?
22:39:46 <tusho> SimonRC: agora's lists go down every now and then
22:39:52 <tusho> there are two extra lists that are used in that case
22:41:41 <SimonRC> ok
22:41:47 <oerjan> tusho: from quickly browsing that last wikipedia article it is clear that philosophers disagree on whether such statements have truth values or not
22:42:09 <tusho> meh.
22:42:17 <tusho> i definitely believe they don't
22:42:23 <tusho> either way, it should be specialcased
22:42:31 <tusho> so that failing actions aren't illegal
22:42:37 <tusho> the truth rule is gone now anyway so
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22:50:36 <oerjan> btw according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_valued_currency_unit the vietnamese dong is probably now the lowest value currency
22:52:14 <tusho> oerjan: why, are they really s*hot*
22:52:37 <oerjan> ?
22:52:56 <tusho> it was a crude joke on the name of the currency
22:53:02 <oerjan> gah
22:53:05 <tusho> and s*hot* was s*shot*, sans redundancy
22:54:16 <oerjan> btw, "In Vietnamese, dong literally means copper"
22:55:58 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:56:42 <tusho> oerjan: those vietnamese sure have weird bodies
22:57:42 <oerjan> "Since 2003, Vietnam has replaced its cotton banknotes with plastic polymer banknotes, which it claims will save money[6]. Many newspapers in the country criticized these changes, citing mistakes in printing and alleging that the son of the governor of the State Bank of Vietnam benefited from printing contracts[6]. The government clamped down on these criticisms by banning two newspapers from publishing for a month and considering other sanctions on
22:58:08 <tusho> on...
22:58:37 <oerjan> ?
22:58:59 <oerjan> i just found the last sentence .. fueled my prejudices :D
22:59:06 <tusho> it ended with "on"
22:59:10 <tusho> "ring other sanctions on"
22:59:13 <oerjan> oh
22:59:23 <oerjan> .. on other newspapers."
23:00:08 <oerjan> darn irc giving no cutoff warning :(
23:10:53 -!- ErkiDerLoony has joined.
23:11:02 <pikhq> Told ya.
23:11:42 <oerjan> when?
23:12:05 <pikhq> oerjan: That was for ErkiDerLoony, actually.
23:12:16 <pikhq> Who has come to us courtesy of ##brainfuck.
23:12:35 <pikhq> Population Gregor, ErkiDerLoony, Chanserv, and I.
23:13:20 <ErkiDerLoony> Yeah well, I just found the wiki article about brainfuck. And tried it. :)
23:13:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:13:34 <pikhq> Fun stuff.
23:13:44 <pikhq> That, BTW, is how a lot of us started on esoteric languages.
23:13:45 <pikhq> (most?)
23:14:24 <SimonRC> I still remember the NewScientist side-box that mentionned BF
23:14:32 <SimonRC> 'twas the only one I could recall the name of
23:15:36 <ErkiDerLoony> pikhq: So you started with BF. What are you doing today?
23:15:51 <pikhq> Just got done watching a movie...
23:15:57 <pikhq> ATM, I'm just sitting on IRC.
23:16:18 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:16:26 <ErkiDerLoony> I'm playing with my new KDE 4.1.
23:16:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:16:46 <ErkiDerLoony> And I'm going to watch some episode of Knight Rider right away.
23:16:53 <pikhq> I don't have the hard drive space for that yet.
23:16:59 <pikhq> Still waiting on 4 100G drives.
23:17:58 <tusho> hi ErkiDerLoony
23:18:02 <tusho> you can never leave now
23:18:47 <ErkiDerLoony> You mean this channel or programming in esoteric languages?
23:18:54 <pikhq> Both.
23:18:56 <tusho> both
23:19:04 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:20:08 <SimonRC> you can "svn co", but you can never "svn leave"
23:20:15 <oerjan> also we would say you are now officially mad, except your nick indicates you already know
23:20:29 <tusho> SimonRC: svn?
23:20:32 <tusho> how primitive.
23:20:39 <pikhq> Git.
23:20:45 <tusho> You can "git clone", but you can never "rm -r".
23:20:58 <pikhq> SVN is at least a bit like having discovered fire...
23:20:58 <oerjan> pikhq: no need to be rude
23:21:07 <tusho> oerjan: that was a joke right
23:21:09 <SimonRC> ErkiDerLoony: not related to "Mad Eric", the guiness world record holder for most stuff in pockets, are you?
23:21:31 <tusho> oerjan: please say that was a joke?
23:21:33 <oerjan> tusho: IMPOSSIBLE
23:21:34 <pikhq> Primitive, but a hell of a lot better than those CVS or RCS tribes.
23:21:38 <tusho> Phew.
23:21:38 <tusho> :P
23:21:45 <pikhq> (for those tribes: the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.)
23:21:52 <SimonRC> CVS = pain
23:21:56 <SimonRC> from my experience
23:21:57 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:22:00 <tusho> pikhq: I see your hhgttg quote.
23:22:02 <tusho> I see it done good.
23:22:08 <tusho> Anyway, real men use SCCS .
23:22:10 <tusho> And ed.
23:22:31 <pikhq> tusho: :)
23:22:48 <tusho> Well, ed is a bit too non-unixy.
23:22:54 <tusho> Even 'awk' is pushing it.
23:23:03 <pikhq> ed is non-unixy?
23:23:08 <tusho> 'sed' and 'cat' are really the only "unixy" manipulation tools.
23:23:20 <tusho> Because they operate as command-line based pipes which work on tiny tiny languages
23:23:23 <tusho> (cat's language is the identity function)
23:23:39 <pikhq> *cat*?
23:23:41 <pikhq> Psssh.
23:23:48 <tusho> pikhq: actually i'm being serious here
23:23:55 <pikhq> Unless you're concatenating stuff, cat is overdoing it.
23:23:56 <tusho> obviously the unix philosophy doesn't work in its pure form
23:24:11 <tusho> because 'sed' and 'cat' are basically the unixy text manipulation tools
23:24:18 <pikhq> <.bashrc
23:24:20 <tusho> and, of course, editing with just them would be hell
23:24:39 <oerjan> pikhq: echo >
23:24:49 <pikhq> Though, to be honest, <.zshrc would be more *appropriate*.
23:25:09 <tusho> cat, echo, sed: the UNIX suite of text manipulation tools
23:25:11 <tusho> Also known as "hell".
23:25:19 <pikhq> I use Zsh. "<.zshrc" actually outputs .zshrc. Paginated.
23:26:24 <tusho> pikhq: Which happens to be un-unixy.
23:26:31 <tusho> What i'm trying to say is that the unix philosophy is nice but it has major flaws.
23:26:52 <tusho> A mix of classic mac os / plan 9 / unix would probably not be such a bad OS.
23:27:02 <tusho> OS X is probably the closest operating system to that that you can use practically today
23:27:05 <pikhq> tusho: The Z shell is, I think, just calling $PAGER with stdin.
23:27:27 <pikhq> Granted, the Z shell is otherwise completely un-Unixy.
23:27:42 <pikhq> (it is an editor. And an FTP client. And Tetris.)
23:28:05 <tusho> I have both emacs, z shell and firefox installed here.
23:28:09 <tusho> And also qemu with loads of OS'.
23:28:13 <tusho> I have a lot of operating systems on here ;)
23:28:51 <pikhq> ;)
23:37:50 -!- ErkiDerLoony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:39:53 <pikhq> he left!
23:44:09 <tusho> :O
23:46:32 * SimonRC reads The Effects of Moore's Law and Slacking on Large Computations http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9912/9912202v1.pdf
23:46:49 <psygnisfive> simonrc: summarize?
23:47:25 <SimonRC> sometimes you get work done faster by waiting for a better computer before you start work
23:52:21 <tusho> bye for today
23:52:26 -!- tusho has quit.
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