←2008-11-02 2008-11-03 2008-11-04→ ↑2008 ↑all
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03:50:21 <GregorR> Is that where you only have sex with asians HAW HAW HAW
03:50:38 <GregorR> (Stereotypes rül)
03:51:32 <psygnisfive> wh..what?
03:52:31 <GregorR> Read without context :P
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04:01:17 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Pepper
04:01:27 <psygnisfive> OKLOPOL DO YOU LIKE THIS
04:01:59 <GregorR> You rarely see something /flavored/ with ammonia salt:P
04:06:55 <psygnisfive> rarely, except in finland
04:07:11 <psygnisfive> where they apparently put ammonium chloride on EVERYTHING
04:45:32 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGP_word_list
04:47:28 <psygnisfive> lol
04:47:40 <psygnisfive> a way of speaking PGP over the phone? XD
04:50:14 <bsmntbombdood> no, a way of communicating binary data over noisy channels
04:50:36 <psygnisfive> well.. yes, but apparently specifically designed for PGPed stuff. :P
04:55:17 <bsmntbombdood> it's just interesting how they picked it
05:04:39 <pikhq> It would be especially handy for, say, PGP key signatures.
05:05:49 <bsmntbombdood> no way!
05:07:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they are there because java wants me to be clean..
05:47:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no i don't especially like that
05:47:19 <psygnisfive> :p
05:47:29 <oklopol> then again i don't like candy at al
05:47:30 <oklopol> *all
05:49:43 <oklopol> but i especially don't like ammonium chloride on candy; i *do* like it as raw powder though.
05:50:22 <psygnisfive> lmfao
05:50:31 <psygnisfive> i can just see you snorting likes of salmiakki
05:50:34 <psygnisfive> lines*
05:55:11 <oklopol> i did that as a kid yes
05:55:34 <oklopol> (i also smoked tea)
05:55:43 <oklopol> (god i was bad, sooo bad)
05:56:18 <GregorR> Smoked .... tea ....
05:56:47 <psygnisfive> man
05:56:50 <psygnisfive> tea will get you fucked UP
05:58:35 <oklopol> nah you don't get high from it
05:58:48 <oklopol> just tastes nice
05:59:12 <GregorR> Smoked .... tea ....
06:04:07 <oklopol> :P
06:06:12 <bsmntbombdood> lapsang suochong!
06:06:16 <bsmntbombdood> shit is so cash
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06:13:08 <psygnisfive> i can speak some mandarin. :O
06:14:28 <psygnisfive> 我会说一点儿中文 :D
06:18:41 <oklopol> yes, i agree, that is some fine ice cream
06:29:15 <fizzie> 我可以使用翻译工具
06:30:10 <oklopol> why thank you, i think this dress looks pretty too.
06:31:41 <psygnisfive> whoa whoa i can barely read what i wrote there, buddy
06:31:51 <psygnisfive> wo ke .. .. .. .. .. gong ..
06:31:56 <psygnisfive> thats all i know of what you wrote :p
06:32:09 <psygnisfive> tones randomly left out for ease of typing
06:32:39 <psygnisfive> fizzie, ni hui shuo zhongwen ma?
06:32:46 <oklopol> is mandarin trendy now? everyone seems to know spike it
06:33:02 <psygnisfive> mandarin is the language of the future, havent you ever seen Firefly?
06:34:20 <fizzie> What I wrote comes courtesy of Google Translate, I have no idea how someone who actually speaks the language would read it.
06:34:48 <oklopol> i haven't seen firefly
06:35:02 <oklopol> ...i've seen *a* firefly
06:35:13 <fizzie> oklopol: What language did it speak to you?
06:35:13 <psygnisfive> surfthechannel.com
06:35:14 <psygnisfive> watch firefly
06:35:15 <psygnisfive> its awesom
06:37:41 <oklopol> i have an exam in 23 minutes
06:37:49 <oklopol> so i have to study!
06:38:00 <oklopol> *22
06:38:21 <oklopol> our lecturer is such a funny dude
06:38:27 <oklopol> i mean, in one of his notes
06:38:36 <oklopol> there's this brilliant caption
06:38:42 <oklopol> about sockets (but not about sugar)
06:38:57 <oklopol> i lolled like 5 minutes
06:39:08 <oklopol> i wonder if it makes any sense.
06:39:39 <fizzie> The best picture caption I've seen was in a mathematics journal I saw on the "new journal issues" table of our library. There was a picture of some graph, and underneath it: "Fig. 1: A fascinating picture."
06:39:59 <oklopol> :P
06:40:37 <fizzie> After that I've had a habit of using "A fascinating picture." as a placeholder text for image captions when writing LaTeX or such.
06:40:47 <oklopol> heh
06:41:02 <oklopol> hmm, i should prolly consider thinking about leaving
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08:27:43 <pikhq> The Sims: The Movie.
08:27:45 <pikhq> NO.
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10:31:30 <oklopol> o
10:31:35 <oklopol> pikhq: i'd watch that
10:31:36 <ais523> oko
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10:35:16 <oklon> okoko
10:35:25 <ais523> okokoko
10:35:30 <ais523> also, I like the name oklon
10:35:43 <oklon> it's kinda cute shurr.
10:35:51 <AnMaster> heh
10:35:56 <AnMaster> ais523, hi!
10:36:03 <oklon> yeah hi ais523!
10:36:14 <ais523> and hi AnMaster!
10:36:18 <AnMaster> heh
10:36:23 <oklon> oh and hi AnMaster!
10:36:30 <AnMaster> hullo oklon!
10:36:51 <AnMaster> (spelling actually intentional)
10:37:21 <oklon> (yeah that i know it was)
10:39:26 <AnMaster> ais523, which of these pics would you say look best? http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_channel_mix.png http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_blend.png
10:40:04 <ais523> the blend one, but I like them both
10:40:16 <AnMaster> ais523, what about this one: http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_4.png
10:40:45 <oklon> what are these?
10:40:46 <ais523> I like that one but not as much as the others
10:41:20 <AnMaster> oklon, images generated in a few minutes with gimp's flame plugin as examples for the article http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/GIMP_Fractal_Backgrounds
10:41:32 <AnMaster> most of those minutes were spent by gimp calculating
10:41:44 <oklon> those are coooool
10:42:02 <AnMaster> thanks (I generated those three)
10:42:33 <AnMaster> http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Image:GIMP_CGI_3_base.png <-- the blend one before colourising it
10:42:42 <AnMaster> might be useful to someone
10:42:53 <oklon> ...useful?
10:43:06 <AnMaster> well if you want a green version of it
10:43:20 <oklon> that looks like a nice setting for a game
10:43:22 <AnMaster> hm I should make some fractal "which one do you like best"
10:43:29 <AnMaster> oklon, eh?
10:43:37 <AnMaster> or did you mean the same as me?
10:43:42 <oklon> well i wanna play it even though it's a picture.
10:44:17 <AnMaster> oklon, it takes several minutes to generate one of those
10:44:23 <AnMaster> gimp processing
10:44:49 <oklon> err yeah for gimp, but that's just threads that wimble around
10:45:03 <AnMaster> eh?
10:45:05 <AnMaster> wimble?
10:45:26 <oklon> i want like a strategy game where you're like a virus that infects things, with those graphics
10:45:58 <AnMaster> oklon, something like a reverse Darwinia?
10:46:03 <oklon> esoteric games have been stealing my interest quite a lot these days
10:46:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think wimble is a real word, but I sort of know what oklon means anyway
10:46:38 <AnMaster> Definitions of wimble on the Web:
10:46:38 <AnMaster> * A boring tool, such as a gimlet or auger.
10:46:38 <AnMaster> www.chaddsfordhistory.org/history/glossary.htm
10:46:43 <oklon> darwinia? isn't that just a 2d strategy game with no interesting aspects
10:46:50 <AnMaster> oklon, 3D one but yeah
10:46:52 <ais523> ok, I didn't know that meaning
10:46:56 <oklon> 3d in graphics, but not movement.
10:47:02 <AnMaster> oklon, true
10:47:03 <AnMaster> well
10:47:16 <AnMaster> ais523, what did oklon mean then?
10:47:41 <AnMaster> Definitions of gimlet on the Web:
10:47:41 <AnMaster> * A cocktail composed of sugar syrup, lime juice, vodka (or gin) and sometimes soda water.
10:47:42 <AnMaster> heh
10:47:42 <ais523> I interpreted it as meaning wandering around in a vague and non-purposeful way
10:47:59 <ais523> although that probably isn't exactly what oklon meant by it, I hope it's close
10:48:03 <oklon> darwinia's *story* may have to do with viruses, but it's just a strategy game
10:48:10 <AnMaster> oklon, ok
10:48:17 <oklon> ais523: yeah it's exactly what i mean
10:48:19 <AnMaster> oklon, I never played it, due to being closed source
10:48:23 <oklon> wimbling.
10:48:35 <oklon> AnMaster: me neither, but a friend of mine did
10:48:54 <AnMaster> or actually, I played a demo
10:49:00 <Deewiant> darwinia is a work of art
10:49:09 <AnMaster> kind of crappy IMO
10:49:17 <Deewiant> :-O
10:49:18 * AnMaster agrees with oklon there
10:49:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice idea, poor implementation
10:49:32 <oklon> Deewiant: what's great about it?
10:49:49 <oklon> isn't it just move-soldiers-around
10:50:06 <AnMaster> more or less iirc
10:50:18 <oklon> hmm, actually there may have been something about saving some neutral thingies?
10:50:23 <Deewiant> like I said it's a work of art; I find it captures the retro feel of cannon fodder really well
10:50:45 <Deewiant> if you look at just the gameplay aspects it's not that special, true.
10:51:00 <oklon> i only look at gameplay aspects
10:51:09 * AnMaster agrees with oklon there
10:51:13 <oklon> story and graphics are for kids and noobs
10:51:15 <oklon> :o
10:51:22 <Deewiant> bah :-P
10:51:44 <Deewiant> you need all four (+ sound) to have a complete game
10:51:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really? What about nethack?
10:51:59 <AnMaster> no sound
10:52:00 <Deewiant> if you're going to leave something out or do it poorly it has to be balanced out
10:52:02 <AnMaster> complete game
10:52:14 <Deewiant> text adventures have no graphics or sound
10:52:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nethack have graphics
10:52:24 <Deewiant> they make up for it with descriptions which cause your imagination to fill in the gaps
10:52:28 <AnMaster> ASCII graphics
10:52:42 <oklon> text adventures are all about story, usually, they have their puzzles, which may work as minigames, but overall they usually suck.
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10:53:09 <Deewiant> bah, no point in talking to you guys :-P
10:53:21 <oklon> and story is even less interesting than graphics, i actually *prefer* games without a story, whereas graphics i may occasionally find nice.
10:53:30 <AnMaster> hey
10:53:33 <AnMaster> I want story
10:53:34 <AnMaster> too
10:53:36 <ais523> AnMaster: actually NetHack does have sound, I just don't think it's supported on any platforms which still exist
10:53:39 <AnMaster> oklon, RPGs
10:53:41 <oklon> Deewiant: i'm pretty sure it's always pointless to talk to me :P
10:53:44 <AnMaster> ais523, heh!?!
10:53:50 <ais523> if you play a tune on an in-game instrument on the Amiga, you get the same tune out of its speakers
10:53:50 <oklon> AnMaster: rpg's are utterly uninteresting
10:53:55 <AnMaster> oklon, I disagree!
10:54:18 <ais523> oklon: NetHack doesn't have a story, it's all about gameplay because it doesn't really have graphics either
10:54:24 <ais523> and personally I play games for the gameplay
10:54:32 <ais523> it isn't a text adventure, it's ASCII art graphics...
10:54:34 <oklon> ais523: well true, i like that kind of... umm... "extracted" rpg's
10:55:01 <ais523> oklon: I'm writing a text adventure which is nothing but subgames, and they're all eso-programming related
10:55:02 <oklon> where it's so simplified and purified it really doesn't have anything to do with the real world anymore
10:55:05 <ais523> although I haven't got very far
10:55:56 <oklon> yeah i do like games that are basically just stringing-together's of subgames
10:56:32 <oklon> also i occasionally like stories that are completely separate from the gameplay, for instance in world of goo i enjoyed the story
10:56:54 <ais523> I remember a while back ehird made it into a webapp and ehird and someone else (was it AnMaster?) had a go at the 3 puzzles I've created so far
10:56:55 <oklon> ais523: i know that game
10:56:58 <oklon> yes
10:57:16 <oklon> didn't do the puzzles, but i heard the spoilers, which is essentially the same! ;)
10:57:27 <ais523> can you still remember the spoilers?
10:57:34 <ais523> if not, you may still enjoy the puzzles
10:57:50 <ais523> incidentally, I submitted one as a puzzle in Agora, and got lots of interesting answers, including someone who brute-forced the best solution
10:57:52 <AnMaster> hm?
10:57:55 <ais523> none of us in #esoteric found it
10:58:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
10:58:06 <oklon> i don't forget things that are of eternal relevance, as puzzle solutions always are
10:58:09 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe you didn't see it
10:58:23 <AnMaster> also nethack isn't an rpg
10:58:26 <AnMaster> it is a rougelike
10:58:35 <ais523> *roguelike
10:58:38 <oklon> well, actually i didn't hear the solution of the staircase thing.
10:58:44 <AnMaster> yeah that
10:58:47 <AnMaster> ais523, link then?
10:59:01 <oklon> and i guess that was the interesting one
10:59:16 <ais523> AnMaster: probably no longer online
10:59:38 <oklon> hmm you had brainfuck, that step thing the name of which i can't remember, and what was the last one?
10:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, describe them then?
10:59:53 <oklon> anyway you could have like a piano in one room and have a fugue puzzle
11:00:00 <ais523> there was a Brainfuck puzzle, where you entered brainfuck puzzles
11:00:02 <ais523> *programs
11:00:11 <ais523> and you had to deduce from the reaction of the things in the room what you had to write
11:00:17 <ais523> a SMETANA puzzle which is the step thing
11:00:26 <ais523> where I actually made the steps of the program into a staircase
11:00:38 <ais523> and you could walk up and down it swapping the steps around
11:00:53 <ais523> and an INTERCAL puzzle which was basically a 2D version of INTERCAL where you were the IP and could change direction at will
11:01:00 <ais523> and had to get to the other end of the program
11:01:15 <ais523> most of my esoprogram puzzles have the player as a free-willed IP
11:01:30 <ais523> but that's effected by gotos and such, so you can't just walk to the other end of the room
11:01:36 <ais523> (and COME FROMs in the case of INTERCAL)
11:02:00 <oklon> fun
11:02:07 <AnMaster> heh
11:02:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you got to find the link :D
11:02:25 <ais523> as I said, I don't think it's online at the moment
11:02:30 <ais523> I still have the program as an offline program though
11:02:37 <ais523> and I can send you source which you can compile and have a go at
11:02:44 <AnMaster> ais523, that violates "uris are fixed" that w3c likes ;)
11:02:48 <AnMaster> ais523, thanks
11:02:54 <ais523> I'll pastebin it
11:03:07 <AnMaster> ais523, C?
11:03:10 <ais523> yes
11:03:21 <ais523> would paste.eso-std.org be OK, as you have to save the file to compile it anyway?
11:03:26 <ais523> or shall I use a different one?
11:03:34 <AnMaster> paste.eso-std.org ok
11:03:40 <oklon> hmm
11:03:47 <oklon> muriel might make an interesting puzzle of some sort
11:03:58 <ais523> most esolangs do, that's the charm of the game
11:04:04 <oklon> well yeah
11:04:43 <ais523> AnMaster: http://paste.eso-std.org/h
11:04:49 <ais523> and anyone else interested fwiw
11:05:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what is it called?
11:05:19 <ais523> esogame, so far
11:05:23 <ais523> although it could do with a better name
11:05:37 <ais523> probably I'm going to restructure the game to some extent too, it sort-of starts in the middle atm
11:05:49 <ais523> and none of the puzzles connect, you have to quit once you solve them
11:06:03 <ais523> and the INTERCAL one doesn't even react when you've solved it because I haven't created a room beyond there
11:06:16 <oklon> :P
11:07:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | vhdl is reactive by the nature of this channel.
11:07:26 <oklon> hmm, i should probably check out the c++ spec for a good structure for delicious funge's spec
11:07:40 <ais523> delicious funge?
11:08:22 <AnMaster> HUH
11:08:47 <ais523> AnMaster: why the capital huh?
11:08:47 <AnMaster> ais523, don't have time to figure out that game atm
11:08:54 <ais523> ah, ok
11:08:57 <AnMaster> ais523, because caps lock was on
11:08:58 <ais523> what's confusing about it though?
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11:09:06 <AnMaster> ais523, intercal room
11:09:07 <AnMaster> for one
11:09:16 <ais523> ah, probably you should try one of the others
11:09:17 <oklon> Delicious Funge is an attempt at a modern Funge variant with an infinite-dimensional fungespace on reals, (optional) strong, static typing, variables, scopes, lambdas, fully fledged OOP using message passing with single and multiple inheritance, metaclasses, generalized Funge stacks, language-level support for threads, networking and GUI, flexible debugging tools, just-in-time compiling, extendable syntax, modules, namespaces, dynami
11:09:24 <AnMaster> ais523, brainfuck one too
11:09:40 <ais523> the smetana one's the easiest one to 'get' what you have to do
11:09:44 <ais523> even if you don't know SMETANA
11:10:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I dislike text adventures
11:10:19 <AnMaster> too hard to remember or get a pic of where you are
11:10:26 <oklon> hmm, the c++ spec is not freeee?
11:10:28 <ais523> that's why they have look commands
11:10:30 <AnMaster> I prefer isomeric, or at least look down
11:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, even so
11:10:46 <ais523> oklon: I'm pretty sure it is, I've come across free versions before, although I don't know if they're the official one or a draft
11:10:52 <fizzie> It's very much not free.
11:10:55 <fizzie> But the drafts are free.
11:10:58 <ais523> ISO will definitely sell you the official one for money, that doesn't mean you can't necessarily get a free one
11:10:59 <AnMaster> <oklon> Delicious Funge is an attempt at a modern Funge variant with an infinite-dimensional fungespace on reals, (optional) strong, static typing, variables, scopes, lambdas, fully fledged OOP using message passing with single and multiple inheritance, metaclasses, generalized Funge stacks, language-level support for threads, networking and GUI, flexible debugging tools, just-in-time compiling, exten
11:10:59 <AnMaster> dable syntax, modules, namespaces, dynam
11:11:00 <AnMaster> heheh
11:11:01 <AnMaster> nice
11:11:02 <AnMaster> !
11:11:08 <AnMaster> got a link to it?
11:11:10 <ais523> ah, and it's like C, all the versions except the official one are free, then
11:11:18 <fizzie> So if you just want to look at the format, see http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1905.pdf or something.
11:11:33 <fizzie> There are later drafts too, probably.
11:11:47 <oklon> AnMaster: that's all i have sofar, i'm basically just listing features atm, and figuring out how to integrate them with funge.
11:11:56 <AnMaster> oklon, ah
11:12:04 <AnMaster> oklon, "dyman what"
11:12:08 <AnMaster> it was cut off there
11:12:28 <AnMaster> (get a clients that splits, instead of cutting off
11:12:34 <oklon> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p513415413.txt
11:12:37 <ais523> btw, someone in another channel just claimed that "poke" was Finnish for "bouncer", can anyone here who knows Finnish confirm/deny?
11:13:08 <oklon> the kinda bouncer that kicks people off party doors
11:13:16 <AnMaster> oklon, what about privilege levels?
11:13:24 <AnMaster> like ring 0 and ring 3 threads
11:13:32 <AnMaster> oklon, there is even an existing example
11:13:33 <oklon> AnMaster: right a whole 100 page chapter about security!
11:13:36 <AnMaster> let me find the link
11:14:07 <AnMaster> oklon, http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/#Fungus
11:14:11 <AnMaster> it have security
11:14:11 <oklon> ring 0 and ring 3 threads? err like, usermode and kernel mode and shit?
11:14:16 <AnMaster> oklon, yes
11:14:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you will enjoy that link too
11:15:15 <oklon> i don't think i'll have that. too low-level for me :\
11:15:21 <AnMaster> oklon, oh ok
11:15:23 <AnMaster> :(
11:15:26 <oklon> :(
11:15:40 <oklon> the language isn't exactly designed for kernel development :P
11:15:46 <AnMaster> oklon, damn :P
11:15:46 <ais523> <fungus.pdf> It is hoped that this will give rise to further nightmares, possibly involving Cthulhu in a bikini teaching INTERCAL to first-year law students.
11:15:53 <AnMaster> ais523, :D
11:16:14 <oklon> although i guess if befunge has time travel, i can't beat it no matter how many ridiculous features i add.
11:16:18 <AnMaster> ais523, the ring stuff is in the implementation specific stuff iirc
11:16:31 <ais523> oklon: not very well, it's like continuations that affect I/O
11:17:08 <oklon> yes
11:17:17 <oklon> i'm just gonna have regular continuations.
11:17:54 <AnMaster> hm allocating an unique block from funge space of a given size
11:18:00 <AnMaster> that could be an useful fingerprint
11:18:01 <AnMaster> actually
11:18:26 <ais523> the worrying thing about Fungus is that I might implement it in hardware as a hack at some point, for fun
11:18:29 <AnMaster> terribly hard to implement
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11:18:32 <oklon> fizzie: thanks. really any big language spec would do, i might as well take guidance from that.
11:18:55 <ais523> I have access to all the stuff I need as an electronic engineering student
11:19:05 <AnMaster> ais523, read http://www.club.cc.cmu.edu/~ajo/funge/fungus.html too then, the spec had some inconsistencies iirc
11:19:09 <ais523> even the reprogrammable silicon chip things that would be needed to build it at the end
11:19:12 <ais523> and yes, I will
11:20:24 <AnMaster> <fizzie> So if you just want to look at the format, see http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1905.pdf or something. <-- C89?
11:20:31 <AnMaster> oh no
11:20:32 <AnMaster> C++
11:20:43 <ais523> the C++ spec has a saner numbering scheme
11:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh how so?
11:21:07 <ais523> I still don't understand the wisdom of ISO and ANSI publishing standards for C which are identical except in the page numbers and section numbers
11:21:15 <ais523> making it very hard to reference an individual part of the standard
11:21:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how exactly do they differ?
11:21:28 <ais523> whereas C++ gives text labels to the sections as well as page numbers
11:21:38 <ais523> AnMaster: section 4 in one of them is section 7 in the other, IIRC
11:21:40 <AnMaster> I only have ISO 99:TR3 one
11:21:54 <ais523> I think they differ in what's a section and what's a subsection
11:22:02 <AnMaster> heh
11:22:35 <AnMaster> WG14/N1256 Committee Draft — Septermber 7, 2007 ISO/IEC 9899:TC3
11:22:41 <AnMaster> that is the copy I have
11:23:22 <ais523> I think the regulars on c.l.c who cite chapter & verse a lot have a C standard section numbering conversion table somewhere
11:23:26 <ais523> although I never managed to prove that
11:23:26 <oklon> is ".delicious" a good file suffix? :D
11:23:30 <ais523> oklon: yes
11:23:33 <ais523> or maybe .deli
11:23:35 <AnMaster> bbiab
11:23:36 <ais523> which sounds good too
11:23:41 <oklon> ah
11:23:46 <oklon> deli is nice.
11:23:55 <oklon> because it means delicious if i'm not mistaken.
11:24:09 <ais523> actually, normally it means delicatessen
11:24:11 <oklon> i may be mistaken, but no need to correct me, because that would only complicate things.
11:24:23 <ais523> whoops, sent that off slightly too quickly...
11:24:29 <oklon> well yeah sure, but i mean in the italolatispanish language
11:24:32 <ais523> ah, ok
11:24:54 <oklon> but i don't actually *know* that :P
11:26:26 <ais523> ugh, I never considered the problems of endianess in multi-dimensional languages before
11:26:45 <oklon> hmm, yeah i guess i should use unicode
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11:28:15 <ais523> also, I like the idea of a register designed to be a source of zeros but is writable anyway so you can redefine 0
11:28:25 <ais523> very INTERCALlish /and/ Smalltalky
11:29:03 <oklon> mips has a writable zero register, but the value doesn't change
11:29:20 <oklon> well
11:29:26 <oklon> i guess it's not exactly writable then.
11:29:37 <oklon> hmm, god i'm bad at sounding official.
11:30:09 <oklon> i should probably start writing the middle of the spec first, in a random fashion, and fix the chaos later.
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11:41:43 <oklon> memory allocation from the delicious fungespace is actually considerably easier than in the usual fungespace, considering it has infinite dimensions, and you can just allocate an unused dimension for that...
11:42:17 <oklon> well, you can't guarantee it will always be unused, but, well, it's bad practice to use dimensions without allocating them first anyway
11:43:37 <oklon> also the coordinate system is on reals, so you can just allocate (x to x+e, y to y+e) to be a square containing any amount of objects you wanna keep safe.
11:45:03 <ais523> actually, a fungeoid with real coordinates is one of the first things I've heard that gave me that eso feel
11:45:11 <ais523> of some new and exciting eso idea coming up
11:45:18 <ais523> with respect to that language
11:45:26 <ais523> rationals, or arbitrary reals?
11:45:33 <oklon> arbitrary reals.
11:45:39 <ais523> how do you specify irrational reals?
11:45:47 <ais523> or indeed, process the results?
11:45:55 <oklon> you can't do that in general, there is no declarativity.
11:45:57 <oklon> at least atm
11:46:14 <oklon> i may add "find largest number in set" if you want irrationals... :P
11:46:19 <ais523> I mean, how do you set the delta to (pi, e, 0, 0....)?
11:46:49 <oklon> pi and e may exist as constants
11:47:23 <oklon> but i'm not saying you can actually create arbitrary reals, it's just the number system must hold any number without ever losing precision.
11:47:43 <ais523> restricting it to rationals would at least make it implementable
11:47:51 <ais523> but that rather defeats the point, probably
11:48:14 <oklon> well you can only make the kind of reals the stdlib lets you.
11:48:37 <oklon> and that's sin/cos and friends, square root, and e
11:48:41 <oklon> probably.
11:49:07 <oklon> just better not check equality with = if you don't want to loop infinitely.
11:49:46 <oklon> i mean, it's not actually hard to store these numbers and do calculations, the only hard thing is equality, and if that can't be determined, ip reflects.
11:51:32 <oklon> well
11:51:48 <oklon> actually reflection is probably not allowed.
11:52:02 <ais523> why not?
11:52:07 <AnMaster> back
11:52:30 <oklon> well i don't want implementations to just store everything but rationals as black holes.
11:52:49 <oklon> a black hole is a number you can't do anything with anymore, because it's too complex to compare it with other things.
11:53:30 <oklon> you can still add stuff to it, and do other operations, but those are simply swallowed, because there is no need to get anything sensible out of it anymore.
11:54:05 <AnMaster> oh my
11:54:14 <AnMaster> your fungoid would need symbolic numbers
11:54:18 <AnMaster> you need a bloody CAS
11:54:35 <AnMaster> at least if e square root and so on should be exact
11:54:41 <ais523> oklon: couldn't you approximate it to n decimal places?
11:54:44 <AnMaster> instead of, say, long double
11:54:49 <oklon> anyway you can restrict the fungespace if you wish, because, well, there will be static typing anyway, so naturally there will be optimized 2^n type of numbers.
11:54:53 <ais523> that works even if you don't know the exact value
11:55:08 <oklon> ais523: yeah that's good
11:55:16 <AnMaster> oklon, I think reflection should be replaced with interrupts
11:55:20 <AnMaster> or something like that
11:55:22 <ais523> ofc, you have to allow that for arbitrarily large n
11:55:25 <oklon> and pure rationals MUST BE compared exactly, and rules like that
11:55:26 <ais523> or it misses the point
11:55:26 <AnMaster> exception tables
11:55:34 <oklon> AnMaster: yeah.
11:55:55 <AnMaster> oklon, what will be file format be?
11:55:58 <AnMaster> it can't be plain ascii
11:56:08 <AnMaster> if you allow non-integer coordinates
11:56:18 <AnMaster> X,Y,value\n
11:56:19 <AnMaster> maybe?
11:56:33 <oklon> i was thinking unicode, 2d, and you can tell it where to start and which direction to put the plane in
11:56:47 <AnMaster> oh a scaling factor too?
11:57:10 <oklon> POSITION_VECTOR PLANE_DIRECTION_VECTOR\n<2d program written in unicode>
11:57:16 <ais523> I remember that although Shove's a 2D language, practical programs tended to be 1D
11:57:24 <ais523> and generate the 2Dness at runtime
11:57:26 <AnMaster> oklon, what unicode encoding?
11:57:34 <ais523> instead of writing a 2D program, you wrote a 1D program that generated it
11:57:46 <oklon> AnMaster: i don't know anything about unicode, so i do not know yet.
11:57:51 <AnMaster> oklon, UTF-8
11:57:53 <oklon> ais523: heh :D
11:58:03 <ais523> oklon: UTF-8's easiest, lots of things use it nowadays
11:58:19 <oklon> ah that one
11:58:35 <oklon> yeah standard is good here.
11:58:43 <AnMaster> hm standard..
11:58:49 <AnMaster> you should use XML then ;P
11:58:52 <AnMaster> no don't
11:59:04 <ais523> AnMaster: even suggesting an XML fungeoid is grounds to be shot, I suspect
11:59:14 <AnMaster> haha
11:59:29 * ais523 so hopes that optbot puts that line in the topic at some random point in the future
11:59:29 <optbot> ais523: we first need a notation
11:59:30 <AnMaster> oklon, anyway if input is 2D UTF-8, how would you put stuff at real coordinates?
11:59:43 <ais523> optbot: yes, that's what we're dicussing now
11:59:43 <optbot> ais523: http://www.noah.org/science/audio_paradox/endless.mp3
12:00:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and mathml to express coordinates :P
12:00:10 <oklon> AnMaster: hmm, you can probably just put the program at fixnum-represented coordinated
12:00:15 <ais523> ok, I'm starting to like this, insane as it is
12:00:16 <oklon> or maybe any rationals
12:00:24 <AnMaster> ais523, mine or oklon
12:00:25 <AnMaster> ?
12:00:29 <AnMaster> oklon's*
12:00:52 <ais523> I was referring to yours, I said I liked oklon's already
12:00:55 <oklon> so something like 5 2 6 # 4 2/3 1/898
12:00:56 <AnMaster> ah
12:00:59 <AnMaster> yes I like oklon's idea
12:00:59 <ais523> both are good ideas
12:01:09 <ais523> well, yours is awfully bad but should be done anyway
12:01:12 <AnMaster> oklon, how would you do GC stuff?
12:01:13 <AnMaster> I mean
12:01:15 <AnMaster> ref counting?
12:01:23 <AnMaster> or sweep-mark?
12:01:31 <oklon> starts at [5, 2, 6, 0, 0...], and the scale would be [4, 2/3, 1/898, 1, 1, ...]
12:01:35 <AnMaster> and then how the heck to find out of something is referenced?
12:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I won't do that idea I had
12:01:50 <AnMaster> I would ask w3c to do it
12:01:53 <AnMaster> ;P
12:02:05 <oklon> but, maybe 5 2 6 # 7 would be [5, 2, 6] and scale [7, 7, 7, 7, ...] :D
12:02:17 <AnMaster> oklon, heh
12:02:17 <oklon> are exceptions good? :P
12:02:28 <AnMaster> oklon, translation matrixes for funge-space
12:02:31 <AnMaster> like opengl ones
12:02:55 <oklon> basically, have one number in the scaler, and everything will be scaled by it, have multiple numbers, and they will be used as a scaling *vector*
12:03:14 <AnMaster> hm
12:03:15 <AnMaster> nice
12:03:19 <oklon> so 7 = 7, 7, 7..., and 7, 7 = 7, 7, 1, 1...
12:03:43 <AnMaster> I just got another horrible idea
12:03:50 <AnMaster> that can be done with existing trefunge
12:03:51 <oklon> you can't do stuff like 7, 1, 7, 7, 7..., but i think that's okay, because then you'd start wanting to do all kinds of cycles and shit...
12:03:56 <AnMaster> want to hear?
12:04:01 <oklon> sure sure.
12:04:16 <AnMaster> Make a program that runs and works, but also looks like that standard OpenGL 3D teapot
12:04:18 <AnMaster> :D
12:04:28 <AnMaster> in the shape
12:04:42 <AnMaster> ais523, poke ^
12:05:01 <AnMaster> I think ais523 timed out
12:05:04 <AnMaster> no ping reply
12:05:22 <AnMaster> oklon, still what do you think?
12:05:41 <AnMaster> and yeah I like your idea oklon
12:05:42 <AnMaster> I think
12:09:24 <oklon> yeah that's a nice idea
12:09:25 <oklon> but
12:09:39 <oklon> if you start doing things with shape, i'd prefer something less discrete than befunge
12:09:51 <oklon> something like.... gradients
12:14:56 <oklon> Exact comparisons between reals need not have any guarantees of succeeding if the numbers are equal, but comparison must be complete if the numbers are different. <<< does this sound right?
12:16:48 <oklon> hmm, well clearly it can just try one more digit of precision at a time, until it finds proof that they are different.
12:18:00 <oklon> hmm...
12:18:17 <oklon> wonder if i should allow twisting the cube... :o
12:18:42 <oklon> well, no one is actually going to use these features, so i guess it doesn't matter :P
12:18:50 <oklon> (i mean, even if they used delicious funge itself)
12:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: not timed out, I just had to leave in a hurry
12:20:27 <ais523> back now, anyway
12:22:02 <oklon> i think i'll just store real numbers in the fungespace, and add explicit serialization procedures for putting objects in cells
12:22:16 <oklon> so that you usually use the real as a pointer
12:22:57 <AnMaster> heh
12:23:05 <oklon> hmm, maybe a cell should hold real/pointer.
12:23:06 <AnMaster> oklon, what about tuples?
12:23:10 <AnMaster> or other non-integers
12:23:18 <AnMaster> for storing in cells I mean
12:23:29 <oklon> you can just store non-integers in the cells
12:23:33 <AnMaster> ah
12:23:34 <oklon> without serializing
12:23:41 <ais523> oklon: just use an explicit serialisation from an infinite number of reals into one real
12:23:42 <oklon> (which i actually call atomizing btw)
12:23:46 <AnMaster> oklon, statically and strongly typed?
12:23:47 <ais523> such serialisations exist
12:23:59 <oklon> atomizing is a better term for it imo, because you're encoding it in a number.
12:24:02 <AnMaster> so type tagged values?
12:24:04 <ais523> well, yes
12:24:16 <AnMaster> oklon, oh another thing: something like mprotect()
12:24:22 <oklon> AnMaster: yeah that's something i want to have, in some form.
12:24:29 <oklon> i don't know mprotect()
12:24:41 <AnMaster> oklon, can execute/can write/can read
12:24:46 <AnMaster> as flags on a memory block
12:25:09 <oklon> AnMaster: yeah type tagged values, objects are usually stored as small blocks of code where you have an ip that handles requests given to the object.
12:25:33 <oklon> this is how functions and objects are generally done
12:26:08 <oklon> static typing is basically only an issue when you're jitting the code.
12:26:15 <oklon> and i'm not sure how that's gonna work :D
12:26:25 <oklon> but i must have it!
12:26:53 <oklon> ais523: well i just need to encode a *finite* amount of reals into a real.
12:27:12 <ais523> oklon: isn't it good to be able to encode an infinite-dimensional location in space into one number?
12:27:26 <ais523> anyway, alternating the digits before and after the decimal point is one way to encode two reals into one
12:27:32 <ais523> INTERCAL mingle ftw
12:27:39 <oklon> well i was thinking you'd never actually use infinite dimensions, but just a finite amount at a time.
12:27:46 <oklon> and the rest would be zeroes
12:28:00 <ais523> ah, ok
12:28:15 <ais523> just do mingling, mingling on reals is insane, impressive, and maps R^2 to R
12:28:34 <ais523> strangely, that's the solution a mathematician who'd never heard of INTERCAL suggested too when the discussion came up a few years ago
12:29:12 <oklon> i don't see the encoding as an issue really, especially as i can just have the imaginary mathematical operation merge(objecta, objectb), which *returns a real number that, when unmerged with 1, returns objecta, and when unmerged with 2, returns objectb*.
12:29:23 <oklon> i mean, the reals aren't exactly infinite sequences
12:29:39 <ais523> well, yes
12:29:41 <oklon> in the general case they are mathematical expressions that evaluate to a number if needed.
12:29:54 <ais523> hmm... mingling two rationals always gives a rational answer
12:29:59 <ais523> I wonder how easy that would be to implement?
12:30:00 <oklon> yes
12:30:04 <oklon> oh
12:30:05 <oklon> hmm.
12:30:40 <oklon> let's see the binary case
12:30:44 <oklon> we have two numbers, a and b
12:30:48 <oklon> and we wanna mingle them
12:31:11 <oklon> what operation is "add zeros to a as every second digit" exactly
12:31:14 <oklon> what does it do :|
12:31:17 <oklon> that's the gist really
12:32:25 <oklon> wtf. the calculator in vista can't handle binary floating point xD
12:32:34 <oklon> oh my god this world sucks
12:32:39 * oklon opens python
12:35:29 <oklon> asd, god i'm getting
12:35:39 <oklon> tired at making a base converter every day.
12:35:46 <oklon> should reeeeally consider storing one somewhere
12:36:10 <oklon> but really it's quite a wtf languages rarely have that
12:36:33 <oklon> and, occasionally, i want to kill all humans because of it.
12:37:04 <oklon> lo
12:37:11 <oklon> lol, my python won't open.
12:37:26 * oklon cuts wrists.
12:37:52 <ehird> oklon: i like yer new name
12:40:18 <oklon> ehird: thanks. now can you point me to a calculator that is not retarded?
12:40:25 <ehird> oklon: python
12:40:58 <ehird> 03:23:26 <oklon> is ".delicious" a good file suffix? :D
12:40:58 <oklon> what module do i import for binary floating point?
12:41:02 <ehird> .Delicious Funge
12:41:03 <ehird> do it
12:41:04 <oklon> :D
12:41:07 <ehird> oklon: dunno :D
12:41:10 <AnMaster> I prefer the .deli
12:41:11 <oklon> yeah i was actually thinking that
12:41:46 <ehird> oklon: or
12:41:50 <ehird> , a Delicious Funge program
12:41:51 <ehird> like
12:41:57 <ehird> Hello world, a Delicious Funge program
12:42:38 <AnMaster> no spaces in the extension please
12:42:47 <Deewiant> do it, just to annoy AnMaster
12:42:57 <AnMaster> other than that it is fine
12:42:57 <ais523> actually, CLC-INTERCAL crashed Debian mandb
12:43:02 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
12:43:03 <ais523> by having spaces in the executable's filename
12:43:14 <Deewiant> bloody broken software
12:43:18 <AnMaster> I agree
12:43:30 <AnMaster> but, spaces is still irritating on command line
12:43:34 <AnMaster> are*
12:47:52 <oklon> ehird: lol that's awesome xD
12:49:06 <ehird> Deewiant: i would do anything just to annoy anmaster
12:49:13 <ais523> oo,\ ick
12:49:14 <Deewiant> ehird: I know
12:49:15 <ais523> simple enough
12:49:24 <ais523> strangely the comma didn't seem to cause problems
12:49:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well it wouldn't, doesn't have any special meaning
12:49:56 <ais523> even DOS handled it fine
12:49:58 <AnMaster> not in there
12:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, in {foo,bar} you would need to escape it for example though
12:50:46 <AnMaster> (that expands to foo bar, not very useful until you combine it: my_{foo,bar} -> my_foo my_bar
12:50:59 <AnMaster> )
12:51:00 <ais523> yes
12:51:04 <ais523> useful for filenames
12:51:09 <AnMaster> indeed
12:51:38 <AnMaster> or generating permutations
12:51:58 <AnMaster> (assuming you can duplicate items, so not really no)
12:54:03 <oklon> ais523: isn't 0.abcd...abcd...(abcd...), where abcd... is the repeating n-digit sequence the number abcd.../z{n}, where z is the largest digit and {n} means n z's?
12:54:14 <oklon> so 0.11011101(1101) would be 1101/1111
12:54:17 <ais523> oklon: yes
12:54:18 <oklon> in binary
12:54:28 <oklon> okay. well i think it's pretty simple to get from that
12:55:23 <oklon> 1101/1111 `mingle` 110000101/111111111 = 01010001/11111111 + 101000000000100010/111111111111111111
12:55:28 <oklon> ...
12:55:33 <oklon> ...i think
12:55:47 <oklon> basically you just add the zeros to the cycled thingie
12:55:48 <ais523> ah, yes
12:55:52 <oklon> but in one you add them on the left
12:55:56 <oklon> and in the other, on the right
12:55:57 <ais523> what about terminating "decimals"?
12:56:11 <oklon> err terminating decimals?
12:56:16 <ais523> like 0.51
12:56:18 <ais523> or whatever
12:56:20 <ais523> or mixes
12:56:24 <ais523> like 0.71828182818281828
12:56:28 <ais523> those are rational too
12:56:29 <oklon> well that's 0.51(0)
12:56:33 <ais523> yes
12:56:43 <ais523> it probably isn't too much of a change to handle those too
12:56:45 <oklon> well it's trivial to do the finite part
12:56:49 <oklon> but hmm
12:57:43 <oklon> i'm not sure how those break down into a more mathy expression
12:58:20 <oklon> you could just have a separate integer part, and multiply the finite decimals there
12:58:35 <oklon> well, you'd have to store the offsets then
12:58:37 <oklon> bleh.
13:02:07 <oklon> about that game without graphics, realized it might feel like kind of a waste for the programmer, as it will need a raytracer of some sort anyway, because the sounds must be handled exactly
13:02:29 <ais523> have graphics too, just don't show them by default
13:02:37 <oklon> well yeah i was thinking about that
13:02:47 <oklon> but that's... well you know, it's a bit lame
13:03:09 <oklon> "it was such hard work making this game i included the graphics so you can see how well the raytracer works"
13:03:22 <oklon> "even though you're not supposed to actually use them"
13:03:31 <oklon> well, i guess they would be helpful when learning the game
13:04:15 <oklon> really crude graphics where you basically just see the different sounds as different colors.
13:05:15 <oklon> the problem is i'm not exactly sure what the goal would be, and what the game would be about. i just have ideas about more specific stuff.
13:05:28 <oklon> like, targeting something could be about tuning the weapon.
13:05:51 <oklon> so that the two notes telling you whether your aim is right have to be at an interval of exactly one octave
13:05:52 <oklon> or something.
13:07:07 <oklon> different objects would have different sounds, you would hear their distance from the loudness, naturally, some kinda muffing filter for detecting whether the object is above you or behind you or in front of you
13:07:46 <oklon> so that you'd learn to associate the effects with height
13:08:00 <oklon> pan and volume would just work as in the real world ofc
13:08:49 <oklon> and maybe something like a reeeeeally exaggerated doppler effect for determining what way the objects are heading
13:10:44 <oklon> weird perception and weird controls are really what i consider the perfect basis for a game, the problem is i just have weird perception here, and by itself it doesn't really make a good game
13:11:45 <oklon> probably would be hard enough just to find some object in the level, and avoid bad guys.
13:17:02 <AnMaster> oklon, how would ppl with simple stereo speakers play it?
13:17:13 <AnMaster> It sounds like you would need surround
13:17:44 * AnMaster only got a headset
13:21:49 <oklon> just stereo
13:22:20 <oklon> with surround you wouldn't need anything special for determining the exact relative position of an object
13:23:01 <oklon> but i want to keep that in effects, if the brain adapts to it, i don't know much about brains, but i think it might work.
13:24:12 <oklon> anyway i doubt anyone would play it anyway. that's not really one of my design goals
13:24:29 <oklon> or have you tried any of my games?
13:25:10 <ehird> heh, oklon is talking to a balack hole
13:25:11 <ehird> *black
13:25:31 <oklon> ehird: actually i was monologuing most of that time
13:25:40 <ehird> recently it was AnMaster i assume
13:25:48 <oklon> yes, he said a few sentences in the middle
13:26:26 <AnMaster> hm interesting
13:27:55 <oklon> also i'm planning this control system for a racing game using two joysticks; the racer would not limit your speed at all.
13:28:11 <oklon> would be just about your own reaction time
13:28:57 <oklon> of course the acceleration would be finite, but you would get so much acceleration you would never be able to use it unless in space.
13:30:47 <oklon> also i was thinking you could crash the vehicle by just accelerating fast enough.
13:30:54 <oklon> might be pretty fun.
13:44:41 <AnMaster> oklon, you would die if you accelerate with more than 10 G or so, even with a G pressure suite, and you would become unconscious long before that.
13:45:11 <ais523> maybe it's remote-control
13:46:02 <oklon> yes remote control
13:46:11 <ais523> optbot!
13:46:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes.
13:46:15 <ais523> optbot!
13:46:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | nope.
13:46:21 <ais523> indecisive....
13:46:23 <ais523> indecisive....
13:46:24 <oklon> also i don't exactly care about realism.
13:46:24 <ais523> optbot!
13:46:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | binary transfer is faster and safer than analog.
13:46:51 <ais523> maybe optbot commands should all be punctuation marks
13:46:52 <optbot> ais523: wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically
13:46:56 <ais523> with "optbot" as the sigil
13:46:56 <optbot> ais523: double(each integer)
13:47:06 <ais523> optbot? optbot! optbot...
13:47:07 <optbot> ais523: pikhq, go!
13:47:31 <ais523> ok, the first and third of those were AnMaster, I reckon
13:47:46 <AnMaster> really?
13:47:54 <ais523> the first because that's a grammar mistake AnMaster used to make, and because it's the kind of thing he says
13:47:59 <AnMaster> well "yes" and "nope" could both be mine
13:48:01 <AnMaster> but the third
13:48:05 <AnMaster> I don't remember saying that
13:48:06 <ais523> and the last because AnMaster's the only person in here whose client uses a comma to specify nicks
13:48:08 <ais523> as far as I remember
13:48:22 <ais523> most people use colons, and optbot strips those nick prefixes out
13:48:23 <optbot> ais523: so cool
13:48:29 <AnMaster> ais523, err xchat default is ,
13:48:31 <AnMaster> just FYI
13:48:38 <ais523> lots of things have default ,
13:48:40 <ais523> but most people change it
13:48:43 <AnMaster> and I liked it and made my other clients have it too
13:48:45 <ais523> in my experience
13:48:46 <oklon> "wrapping unsigned numbers happen automatically" is not an error.
13:48:51 <oklon> it's just a weird sentence.
13:48:54 <ais523> shouldn't it be "happens"?
13:49:00 <ais523> oh, wait
13:49:17 <ais523> wrapping = adjective in your interpretation, and the sentence means something entirely different
13:49:21 <oklon> yes.
13:49:30 <AnMaster> hah
13:50:08 <ais523> "forest planting genetically modified squirrels" is a good example of that sort of thing
13:50:35 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a headline and a garden path sentence?
13:50:42 <ais523> it is a headline
13:50:46 <ais523> it wasn't intended to be silly, I don't think
13:50:48 <AnMaster> and what did it mean?
13:50:53 <ais523> just the obvious interpretation isn't the one they meant
13:51:04 <ais523> read it as (forest planting) (genetically modified) squirrels
13:51:08 <ais523> then it makes a lot more sense
13:51:15 <AnMaster> a forest that is planting genetically...
13:51:16 <AnMaster> hm ok
13:51:25 <AnMaster> ais523, no that doesn't make sense either
13:51:34 <ais523> for some reason, though, people tend to read it as forest (planting ((genetically modified) squirrels))
13:51:35 <oklon> ...it doesn't?
13:51:37 <AnMaster> you mean squirrels trained to plant forests?!
13:51:38 <AnMaster> wtf
13:51:42 <ais523> AnMaster: nope
13:51:46 <ais523> it means that planting in a forest
13:51:52 <ais523> caused squirrels to have their genes modified
13:52:08 <AnMaster> oh right
13:52:22 <AnMaster> but, how? I mean apart from normal mutations
13:52:26 <ais523> but I prefer the interpretation in which forests were busy planting GM squirrels
13:52:33 <ais523> the headline's a load of bunk anyway
13:52:36 <ais523> just nicely ambiguous
13:52:50 <AnMaster> ais523, or GM squirrels planting forests
13:52:52 <oklon> okokokokokokokoko
13:52:55 <ais523> yes
13:53:02 <ais523> wait, how do you get that one
13:53:06 <oklon> wtf
13:53:11 <ais523> that would be forest planting by genetically modified squirrels, surely?
13:53:12 <oklon> i didn't see the third one immediately :\
13:53:18 <ais523> I can't think of a way to do it without extra words
13:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting squirrels
13:53:23 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting GM squirrels
13:53:26 <ais523> ah
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13:53:30 <AnMaster> ais523, forest-planting genetically modified squirrels
13:53:33 <ais523> all one noun-phrase, rather than a sentence
13:53:34 <AnMaster> ais523, forest planting genetically modified squirrels
13:53:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
13:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, that was the second variant I saw
13:54:22 <oklon> if there's a fourth one i'm not seeing, i'm gonna hit myself.
13:54:27 <AnMaster> the first was the forest one doing it
13:54:37 <AnMaster> and I can't see a 4th variant either
13:54:44 <ais523> neither can I
13:54:48 <ais523> so if there is one we all missed it
13:54:58 <AnMaster> oh wait yes...
13:55:14 <AnMaster> Forest, Ltd. planting GM squirrels
13:55:15 <AnMaster> :D
13:55:16 <oklon> well, (forest planting genetically) modified squirrels
13:55:25 <AnMaster> if Forest is a company that is
13:55:26 <oklon> AnMaster: names aren't allowed.
13:55:30 <AnMaster> oklon, oh ok
13:55:30 <oklon> but mine is a fourth.
13:55:37 <AnMaster> oklon, how?
13:55:48 <AnMaster> I can't parse it that way
13:55:58 <oklon> the act of planting forests genetically has modified squirrels
13:56:03 <AnMaster> ah
13:56:11 <AnMaster> how do you plant genetically?
13:56:17 <AnMaster> that didn't make any sense
13:56:30 <oklon> yeah and how do forests plant stuff
13:56:37 <oklon> that's really pointless to ask.
13:56:45 <oklon> this is about syntax
13:57:10 <AnMaster> true
13:57:25 <ais523> oklon: ah, yes, I missed that one
13:57:28 <AnMaster> oklon, oh and forests, never read Tolkin?
13:57:39 <AnMaster> The ents or whatever they were called would plant of course ;P
13:57:44 <ais523> although it would be written better as forest planting, genetically, modified squirrels
13:57:49 <oklon> planting forests genetically would probably be something like taking tree genes and putting them in the squirrels, kinda genetically implanting them in them?
13:57:55 <oklon> the whole sentence makes sense that way,.
13:58:00 <ais523> even the sentence with commas is ambiguous though
13:58:08 <AnMaster> :D
13:58:16 <oklon> it's trivial to invent a meaning to anything.
13:59:35 <oklon> err and by that i mean, all grammatically correct sentences are easy to find a model in which they are true for
13:59:40 <oklon> and that was a complicated sentence
13:59:56 <oklon> and it seems it's read o'clock.
14:00:40 -!- oklon has changed nick to oklopol.
14:00:41 <oklopol> ->
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14:43:51 <GregorR> You plant tree genes in a bunch of field mice, then one day they all freak the HELL out until *BANG* they pop and giant effing redwoods grow up out of them.
14:44:18 <ais523> ha
14:44:29 <ais523> but field mice != squirrels
14:44:46 <GregorR> Yeah, but I've never heard of field squirrels :P
14:44:59 <ais523> ah, ok
14:45:09 <ais523> I've seen flourescent light squirrels
14:45:18 <ais523> they got into the ceiling of the library at my old school
14:45:27 <ais523> they used to make lots of noise running around inside the ceiling
14:45:39 <GregorR> I've EATEN flourescent light squirrels.
14:45:44 <ais523> and would sunbathe under the lights from time to time, projecting a squirrel-shaped shadow onto the floor
14:45:45 <GregorR> Boy were those scientists PISSSSSED
14:46:02 <GregorR> Hah
14:59:09 <oklopol> :-)
14:59:17 <oklopol> you're all bots.
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15:33:14 <oerjan> <ais523> also, I like the name oklon
15:33:31 <oerjan> that's not cute. it smells of evil overlord.
15:33:43 <ais523> doesn't mean I can't like it
15:33:49 <oerjan> but then, maybe i've read too much Mandrake
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15:34:51 <oklopol> yeah i'd make a great overlord
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15:35:16 <ehird> oklopol:
15:35:20 <ehird> is today your coding day, no>?
15:35:23 <ehird> CODE A MARKOV CHAIN BOT
15:38:00 <oklopol> turned out this is mostly a reading day :<
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15:40:30 <oerjan> <oklopol> you're all bots.
15:40:34 <oerjan> I'm not a bot.
15:40:42 <oerjan> I may be simulated by one, though
15:42:31 <oerjan> also, i don't think i should read more of Eliezer Yudkowski's writings
15:42:44 <oerjan> *y
15:44:49 <ehird> oerjan: why not?
15:45:09 <oerjan> because it makes you paranoid, that's why
15:45:20 <ehird> true true.
15:47:13 <oerjan> there is also the tendency to stay awake long past bedtime, but that's not unique to him :/
15:48:15 <oerjan> (see also: Tv Tropes)
15:48:45 <oerjan> (or better, don't)
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16:06:45 <M0ny> plop
16:06:51 <ais523> pl0p
16:07:04 <oerjan> pløp
16:07:18 <ehird> plooop
16:07:24 <ehird> <AnMaster> why plop? why not hi?
16:07:32 <ehird> (just in case he didn't already)
16:07:56 <oklopol> he did.
16:08:42 <ehird> really?
16:08:42 <ehird> lawl
16:09:52 <oklopol> well, i lied a bit, but apart from that, he surely did.
16:10:16 <ehird> heh
16:11:35 <oklopol> ha to leaf ->
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17:03:20 <ehird>
17:04:17 <oerjan> KC
17:07:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you mean can there be implicit conversions?.
17:08:30 <oerjan> yes, but not to islam
17:08:47 <oerjan> you need to be very explicit then
17:09:17 <oerjan> pastafarianism otoh...
17:09:25 <oerjan> is best kept implicit
17:10:57 <ehird> ␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠
17:11:33 <oerjan> is that an implicit SP (ISP) or an explicit one (ESP)?
17:13:00 <ehird> ␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠␠
17:13:04 <ehird> it's an <SP>
17:13:29 <oerjan> ah
17:13:53 <oerjan> so it's a coverup
17:26:10 <ais523> ehird: why did you paste a character which is an abbreviation for SP?
17:26:22 <ehird> ais523: it's not
17:26:26 <ehird> it's an unassigned character thing
17:26:35 <ais523> ah, ok
17:26:43 <oerjan> wait a minute...
17:27:19 <oerjan> darn irssi automatic transcription of unicode
17:31:17 <jayCampbell> wait why are all the nomic people here
17:31:27 <jayCampbell> that was highly confusing for a minute
17:31:32 <jayCampbell> hi guys
17:31:42 <oerjan> BWAHAHAHA
17:31:42 <ais523> hi jayCampbell
17:31:53 <jayCampbell> <- j@b.nomic
17:31:55 <ais523> and yes, I was surprised to see yet another nomicer turn up in #esoteric
17:32:00 <ais523> there seems to be a lot of overlap...
17:32:04 <jayCampbell> it makes perfect sense, really
17:32:27 * oerjan is the Ghost of Nomics Past
17:34:21 <ais523> anyway, what brings you here?
17:37:43 <ais523> actually, I must remember to bring thutubot back here
17:37:51 <ais523> after comex killed it with a forkbomb a while back
17:37:58 <jayCampbell> i'm a language hacker
17:38:08 <jayCampbell> like, that's me: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=139703
17:38:29 <jayCampbell> i did the logo for COW
17:38:44 <jayCampbell> i'm thinking about a smalltalk implementation of Taxi
17:38:49 -!- thutubot has joined.
17:38:55 <ais523> wb thutubot!
17:39:31 <ais523> +ul (|)(~(-)~*S~:^):^
17:39:32 <thutubot> -| ...: out of stack!
17:39:38 <ais523> +ul (|)(~(-)~*:S~:^):^
17:39:39 <thutubot> -|--|---|----|-----|------|-------|--------|---------|----------|-----------|------------|-------------|--------------|---------------| ...too much output!
17:40:32 <jayCampbell> and i can't seem to let go of the idea of a natural language for nomic
17:40:48 <ehird> hey jayCampbell !!
17:40:58 <ais523> as in, a programming language suited to nomic, or as in Lojban?
17:41:12 <jayCampbell> programming language
17:41:22 <jayCampbell> a foo is a bar, a bar may squeak
17:41:34 <ehird> jayCampbell: feather!
17:41:35 <ais523> ah, a natural-looking programming language
17:41:37 <ehird> :p
17:42:00 <jayCampbell> it's discouraging when you eventually discover it's not the language that's the hold-up
17:42:02 <ais523> ehird: please don't randomly throw out Feather references to people who haven't seen it before, it took several weeks to explain the first time
17:42:09 <jayCampbell> even the best nomic'ers are completely logical
17:42:19 <ehird> ais523: just retroactively make everyone born with knowledge of it
17:42:20 <ais523> and I'm not particularly in the mood for trying again atm
17:44:20 <jayCampbell> what is feather?
17:44:43 <ais523> jayCampbell: a programming language which doesn't exist yet, and takes far too long to explain
17:44:48 <oerjan> actually, sounds like http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ORK
17:44:59 <ais523> however I think the theory is sound, just it's a pain to work out the details
17:46:54 <jayCampbell> what parser toolkit are you looking at using?
17:47:11 <ais523> for what, Feather?
17:47:18 <ais523> the problem is it's completely self-referential
17:47:29 <ais523> so the parser, and indeed the entire interp, needs to be written from scratch in Feather
17:47:46 <ais523> also an identical version needs to be written in a different lang, or it'll be impossible to get the thing to run in the first place
17:48:15 <jayCampbell> squeak did it
17:50:41 <ais523> yes, that's not the main problem
17:50:51 <ais523> the main problem is keeping track of what's what when you change things retroactively
17:50:59 <jayCampbell> self-described is lofty
17:51:09 <ais523> which is about the only meaningful operation in Feather, and also the one that causes all the headaches
17:51:46 <ais523> a Feather codenomic would be entirely platonic, and you could retroactively change what the rules were in the past and have everything reinterpreted under those rules
17:52:23 <jayCampbell> by replaying the actions through?
17:52:37 <ais523> pretty much
17:52:46 <ais523> the main problem is that this is how Feather handles /everything/
17:52:49 <ais523> you don't assign to variables
17:52:54 <ais523> you change the value they had when they were created
17:53:02 <jayCampbell> haskell-ish
17:53:06 <ehird> jayCampbell: not really
17:53:26 <ais523> Feather defies comparison to anything, really
17:53:41 <ais523> its syntax is designed to look very like Smalltalk, but behave much the same way for entirely different reasons
17:53:50 <ais523> except I keep changing my mind about how to do that
17:54:13 <jayCampbell> btw i figured out how to infinitely scale squeak on amazon ec2 cloud woot
17:54:44 <jayCampbell> there are other approaches to the problem
17:55:08 <jayCampbell> the "problem" being creating a code-based nomic, not feather's implementation
17:55:26 <jayCampbell> players could vote on inclusions to an ORK story, f'rinstance
17:55:50 <ais523> well, you're aware of PerlNomic presumably
17:56:07 <jayCampbell> atnomic ecmanomic niomic
17:56:09 <jayCampbell> yadda
17:56:20 <jayCampbell> self-described isn't all it's cracked up to be :P
17:56:29 <ais523> ever seen Hunter?
17:56:38 <ais523> it's perfectly self-describing, yet basically impossible to use
17:56:47 <ais523> if I've associated the right name with the right lang, I don't discuss that one a lot
17:56:52 <ais523> hmm... maybe it was called Sorted!
17:57:08 * ais523 creates some links to check: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hunter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sorted
17:57:44 <ais523> neither...
17:58:02 <ais523> ah, Sorted! has an exclamation mark on the wiki too
17:58:21 <ais523> http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/sorted.html
17:58:28 <psygnisfive> exactly 14 statements?
17:58:34 <psygnisfive> does this work? D:
17:58:38 <jayCampbell> i was there last night
17:59:02 <ais523> psygnisfive: the statements can be arbitrary length, so yes
17:59:11 <ais523> also, they're always a /particular/ 14 statements
17:59:14 <ais523> just with different args
17:59:17 <psygnisfive> ok, so 14 top-level statements
17:59:33 <psygnisfive> not 14 statements in total, including all recursive application of rules
18:00:00 <ais523> Sorted! is a bit like BASIC with line numbers, but you sort by command type not by line number when writing the program
18:00:16 <ais523> so all the PRINTs are at the top, then all the GOTOs, then all the assignments, then all the additions, and so on
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18:00:43 <psygnisfive> interesting
18:00:47 <psygnisfive> sounds hard to program in!
18:01:03 <jayCampbell> sorta the point
18:01:37 <psygnisfive> but only because keeping track of things would be hard
18:01:42 <psygnisfive> not because the model of computation is hard
18:01:42 <psygnisfive> :(
18:02:36 <jayCampbell> http://www.bigzaphod.org/whirl/
18:02:44 <jayCampbell> *that* is hard to program in
18:02:58 <psygnisfive> whirl is just annoying.
18:03:00 <ais523> J: what sort of langs have you seen before?
18:03:14 <jayCampbell> everything mentioned here so far
18:03:33 <jayCampbell> i've avoided lisp and its variants, and anything microsoft
18:03:43 <psygnisfive> lisp is awesome! :|
18:03:49 <psygnisfive> but so is forth
18:03:50 <ais523> what about some of mine: Underload, Thutu, BackFlip?
18:03:57 <psygnisfive> and i still dont understand forths branches
18:03:59 <jayCampbell> smalltalk is my current favorite but is losing out to ruby for usability
18:04:30 <ais523> I invented Feather originally because Smalltalk wasn't Smalltalky enough IMO, but it ended up as something moderately different
18:05:06 <psygnisfive> ais show me feather again
18:05:11 <ais523> how?
18:05:20 <ais523> it's not as if there's a spec or anything to show
18:05:27 <ais523> just a lot of confused notes which contradict each other
18:05:28 <psygnisfive> examples
18:05:30 <ais523> and me having the latest ideas
18:05:37 <jayCampbell> ha, these are yours
18:05:41 <ais523> also the syntax changes every 5 minutes while I'm thinking about it
18:05:47 <jayCampbell> good to meet you
18:06:16 <ais523> optbot!
18:06:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think it might be interesting to write a license which was in fact an esoprogram.
18:06:37 <ais523> I also maintain C-INTERCAL
18:06:41 <ais523> although I didn't invent INTERCAL, obviously
18:07:54 <jayCampbell> it was cool to see all the Piet canvasses folks have come up with
18:07:58 <ehird> ais523: while you're plugging yourself, might as well mention the wolfram prize too. :-P
18:08:11 <ais523> why? people mention it far too often, it wouldn't do with me joining in too
18:08:51 <ehird> ais523: perhaps you could mention how your beard is turing complete? (Note: Injoke not expected to be gotten by anyone in here as the other party to it is not in here.)
18:09:02 <psygnisfive> ais how did you proof go again?
18:09:12 <psygnisfive> it required like.. infinite steps right?
18:09:15 <psygnisfive> or something?
18:09:20 <ais523> nope, the proof had a finite number of steps
18:09:21 <jayCampbell> ha!
18:09:26 <ais523> the program it generated was infinitely long
18:09:29 <psygnisfive> oh ok right
18:09:32 <psygnisfive> thats what it was
18:09:35 <ehird> ais523: btw, that vaughan pratt person
18:09:36 <ais523> but that's not a problem as Turing machines run out of tape if you give them a finitely long tape
18:09:39 <ehird> was he right about your proof? :-P
18:09:52 <ais523> ehird: his original argument was based on a misconception, he misread my proof
18:09:56 <ehird> heh
18:09:58 <ais523> other points came up later
18:10:03 <ehird> were they right?
18:10:17 <ais523> they weren't based on maths, we basically got into an argument about what particular words meant
18:10:26 <psygnisfive> ais, would the TM finish in finite time???
18:10:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: it can't halt
18:10:34 <ais523> if it ran a non-terminating program, yes
18:10:38 <ais523> *terminating program
18:10:43 <ais523> it can do something halt-like
18:10:45 <psygnisfive> so what was the proof for again?
18:10:55 <ais523> a TC proof for a very simple lang
18:11:11 <psygnisfive> and why then did you require an infinitely long program?
18:11:40 <ais523> do you know what a Turing machine is?
18:11:46 <ais523> you have to put something on the tape to start with
18:11:55 <ais523> and you have to specify every cell on the tape
18:12:09 <ais523> one argument that developed was about what exactly you were allowed to fill the tape with
18:12:12 <psygnisfive> right, but i dont see how that relates to proving something about the language
18:12:52 <ais523> the argument is whether my proof was a proof or not
18:13:05 <ais523> as in, whether I'd proved the right thing
18:13:15 <ais523> in the end they decided that the thing I was trying to prove was ambiguous in the first place
18:13:28 <psygnisfive> ok what im saying tho is i dont see how the requirement of an infinitely large program could be relevant to a proof
18:13:42 <ais523> as it had shades of grey rather than being black and white
18:13:42 <ais523> so it became an argument about semantics not maths, as to where to draw the boundary
18:14:02 <psygnisfive> well whatever.
18:14:08 <psygnisfive> we should come up with our own competition
18:14:09 <psygnisfive> !!
18:14:28 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:12:51] <ais523> the argument is whether my proof was a proof or not
18:14:29 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:05] <ais523> as in, whether I'd proved the right thing
18:14:30 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:14] <ais523> in the end they decided that the thing I was trying to prove was ambiguous in the first place
18:14:33 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:28] <ais523> as it had shades of grey rather than being black and white
18:14:34 <psygnisfive> thank you ais
18:14:36 <psygnisfive> i read that
18:14:37 <ais523> [Mon Nov 3 2008] [18:13:40] <ais523> so it became an argument about semantics not maths, as to where to draw the boundary
18:14:54 <ais523> ah, I didn't know
18:15:00 <ais523> my connection dropped and I'm not sure how much I managed to send first
18:15:02 <ais523> never am
18:15:03 <psygnisfive> ok.
18:15:11 <psygnisfive> sounded like you were being smarmy ;P
18:15:34 <ais523> between me and ehird, quoting yourself basically means "my connection dropped"
18:15:49 <psygnisfive> so anyway
18:15:54 <psygnisfive> lets come up with our own competition
18:16:13 <psygnisfive> i say the competition should be a "figure out how the esolang works" competition
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18:16:34 <ais523> you mean, post a source written in an esolang, without a reference interp or a spec
18:16:41 <psygnisfive> well
18:16:42 <ais523> and other people have to guess what the spec is?
18:16:44 <psygnisfive> some example source code
18:16:50 <psygnisfive> and an interpreter
18:17:05 <psygnisfive> the interpreter has to be a black box tho
18:17:15 <jayCampbell> wouldn't be a court enforceable license
18:18:20 <psygnisfive> what
18:18:28 <ehird> yeah
18:18:29 <ehird> what
18:18:31 <ais523> the topic, presumably
18:18:41 <ehird> ah
18:18:44 <ehird> that's just optbot
18:18:44 <optbot> ehird: if you have a global int foo
18:19:20 -!- Azstal has joined.
18:19:49 <ais523> Please do not copy this code without permission, or [if permitted by Mr. Smith, or a guardian he designates] copy it without attribution
18:22:20 <ais523> so it takes me 0 seconds to ping myself, but 2 seconds to receive the reply?
18:22:46 <ais523> +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^
18:22:47 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
18:23:03 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:03 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko koko ...
18:23:07 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:07 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko kokokokok ...
18:23:11 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokokokokoko
18:23:11 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko okokokokokoko kokokokokoko okokokokoko kokokokoko okokokoko ...
18:23:15 <ais523> ^choo okokokokokokoko
18:23:15 <fungot> okokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko okokokokokoko kokokokokoko okokokokoko kokokokoko okokokoko kokokoko okokoko kokoko okoko koko oko ko o
18:23:24 <ais523> it should do it two chars at a time really
18:23:26 <ais523> ^show choo
18:23:26 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
18:23:35 <ehird> <ais523> Please do not copy this code without permission, or [if permitted by Mr. Smith, or a guardian he designates] copy it without attribution
18:23:35 <ehird> what
18:23:43 <ais523> ehird: it's a license which is in fact an esoprogram
18:23:50 <ehird> ahhh
18:23:51 <ehird> brainfuck
18:23:53 <ehird> :D
18:24:20 <ais523> and I don't see why it wouldn't be legally binding
18:24:41 <ais523> on the other hand, hiding substantial BF programs in messages is much harder than with cat
18:25:58 <ais523> ^def choko bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[-]>[[.>]<[<]>>[-]>]
18:25:58 <fungot> Defined.
18:26:01 <psygnisfive> so cmon guys
18:26:07 <psygnisfive> how about we start a contest :o
18:26:07 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:07 <fungot> kokokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokokoko kokokokokokokoko kokokokokokoko kokokokokoko kokokokoko kokokoko kokoko koko ko
18:26:11 <ais523> ugh
18:26:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: no
18:26:12 <ais523> almost
18:26:18 <oklopol> o
18:26:19 <psygnisfive> :(
18:26:22 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
18:26:23 <ais523> ^def choko bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>>[-]>]
18:26:23 <fungot> Defined.
18:26:24 <psygnisfive> :D
18:26:26 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:26 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokoko okokokoko okokoko okoko oko o
18:26:31 <psygnisfive> wanna start a competition? :D
18:26:36 <ais523> +ul (o )(~:S(ok)~*~:^):^
18:26:36 <thutubot> o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko okokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...too much output!
18:26:43 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:44 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokoko ...
18:26:53 <ais523> ^choko okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:26:53 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokokoko okokokokokokokoko okokokokokokoko okokokokokoko okokokoko ...
18:26:59 <psygnisfive> samnit, ais, stop this nonsense
18:27:00 <psygnisfive> !!
18:27:02 <ais523> sorry
18:27:13 <ais523> oklopol is probably enjoying it though
18:27:14 <psygnisfive> ok continue
18:27:50 <ais523> +ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:27:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: its oko
18:27:53 <ehird> you never try and stop oko
18:27:54 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:27:55 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:28:24 <oklopol> my computer is so laggy i can't enjoy anything right now
18:28:28 <oklopol> should never leave it alone
18:28:33 <thutubot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much memory used!
18:28:33 <ais523> that seems to have got thutubot thinking...
18:28:51 <ais523> also, interesting that they both reached 512
18:29:09 <ais523> hmm... if I reduce the max number of digits to 5, will they get further? probably not tbh
18:29:16 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:17 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:29:23 <ais523> nope, just faster
18:29:28 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:29 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:29:58 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:29:59 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:30:05 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:30:06 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 ...too much stack!
18:30:11 <ais523> ^ul ()(~:()~()~(((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^))~^a(((*)~a*^(((((1)S!^)((1)S!!^))~^)(!(((2)S!^)((2)S!!^))~^)(!!(((3)S!^)((3)S!!^))~^)(!!!(((4)S!^)((4)S!!^))~^)(!!!!(((5)S!^)((5)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!(((6)S!^)((6)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!(((7)S!^)((7)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!(((8)S!^)((8)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!(((9)S!^)((9)S!!^))~^)(!!!!!!!!!(((0)S!^)(!^))~^((a(:^)*a(!!!!!!!!!^)~*^):^)))~a(:^)*~^):^)~*^^^!^!!!!!!!!!!!!()~((0)S!)~^^(:*)*( )S~:^):^a
18:30:12 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64
18:31:49 <ais523> anyway, time to stop spamming
18:32:53 <psygnisfive> so lets organize a competition
18:33:03 <ais523> who would compete?
18:33:06 <psygnisfive> anyone!
18:33:16 <psygnisfive> i propose a second part: parser writing
18:33:20 <ais523> also, does it have to be a new esolang?
18:33:25 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:33:27 <ais523> or can one that everyone's forgotten about count?
18:33:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:33:35 <psygnisfive> no, it just has to be something you cant go and find easily
18:33:49 <ais523> what if the interp only runs in DOS?
18:33:52 <psygnisfive> i mean, we dont want to be able to just go find some reference
18:33:57 <ais523> and OK
18:34:02 <ais523> I was thinking about MiniMAX
18:34:08 <ais523> which was my attempt to golf an interpreter
18:34:25 <psygnisfive> no! interps must be compiled, or must run in browser
18:34:29 <ais523> you have to use DOS to get really really short interps
18:34:39 <psygnisfive> so like, say, server side interp
18:34:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: minimax interp IS compiled
18:34:47 <psygnisfive> yes but it uses dos
18:34:47 <ehird> into a few bytes of dos
18:34:48 <psygnisfive> :P
18:34:48 <ais523> ehird: actually I wrote the asm by hand
18:34:50 <psygnisfive> no it can be dos
18:34:51 <psygnisfive> thats fine
18:34:57 <psygnisfive> i just dont have dos so i couldnt participate in that shit
18:35:01 <ais523> presumably psygnisfive means from a portable lang
18:35:09 <ais523> also, DOSBox exists
18:35:14 <ehird> yeah, dosbox
18:35:16 <ais523> it's just that I've never dared run a MiniMAX program
18:35:16 <psygnisfive> it doesnt matter, i was kidding
18:35:28 <psygnisfive> but the ideal scenario i think would be a server-side script
18:35:31 <ais523> I wrote lots of interps, but I've never run any of them
18:35:34 <psygnisfive> so that its 100% portable
18:35:37 <ais523> and yes, a CGI sounds good
18:35:48 <ais523> even better: no example programs, interps must produce sensible error messages?
18:36:28 <ais523> and have prizes for the first hello world, the first 99bob, the first cat, the first Lost Kingdoms, etc
18:36:40 <psygnisfive> sensible error messages, ok.
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18:36:59 <psygnisfive> also, parser challenge.
18:37:06 <ais523> what, writing parsers?
18:37:11 <ais523> that's easy once you've got the hang of it
18:37:17 <psygnisfive> writing parsers for especially difficult languages
18:37:24 <ais523> heh, like Cyclexa
18:37:34 <psygnisfive> and conversely, designing languages that are especially hard to parse
18:37:36 <ais523> the parser was the only part of that I wrote, and it was buggy
18:37:45 <ais523> unlike Feather, Cyclexa does have a spec
18:37:52 <ais523> but like Feather, it doesn't have an implementation
18:37:55 <psygnisfive> i dont know cyclexa
18:37:56 <ais523> also the spec isn't finished yet
18:38:04 <ais523> it's a TC regex-like lang
18:38:19 <ais523> with an excessively gammaplexy (read: bloated) set of features
18:38:24 <ais523> and designed to be very golfable
18:38:43 <psygnisfive> lol ok
18:39:31 <ais523> hey, there's actually an interesting problem on Anagolf atm, with lots of time left
18:39:39 <ais523> convert an Unlambda number to decimal
18:41:55 <ehird> ais523: trivial
18:42:04 <ais523> yes, I know
18:42:08 <ais523> but can you golf it?
18:42:18 <ais523> also, it seems like a great program for some esoteric entries
18:42:22 <ais523> one in Unlambda itself would be nice
18:42:22 <ehird> link
18:42:27 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Church+Numerals+in+ski
18:42:33 <ehird> oh i thought you said underload
18:42:37 <ais523> ha
18:42:44 <ais523> Underload's easier, I think
18:42:47 <ais523> due to being easier to parse
18:42:57 <ais523> apart from that the rules for numerals aren't all that different
18:45:15 <oklopol> there's an internet, the interpreter could be on the other side of it.
18:45:35 <oklopol> inventing a language, writing a program in it, making others guess how it works?
18:45:39 <oklopol> i've suggested that a few times
18:45:46 <oklopol> and, naturally, think it's an awesome idea
18:45:48 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes. lets do it.
18:45:59 <oklopol> but yeah letting others use an interpreter to figure out the language sounds good.
18:46:16 <oklopol> psygnisfive: "let's", you mean make a language together, make others figure it out?
18:46:20 <psygnisfive> no
18:46:26 <psygnisfive> let's organize this competitiony thing
18:46:30 <oklopol> or "officially start it"
18:46:44 <oklopol> hmm.
18:46:52 <oklopol> need to read the last lines of the logs.
18:48:05 <oklopol> for ski numbers you need an ski interpreter, the rest takes really no code.
18:48:14 <oklopol> ski might, depending on language
18:48:25 <oklopol> for instance my thue ski is like 200 lines
18:48:31 <oklopol> (or 10, i haven't counted)
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18:52:37 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well i'm thinking more like, puzzles.
18:52:48 <psygnisfive> ok how so
18:53:05 <oklopol> so that i could just make a puzzle, and paste it here... :P
18:53:16 <psygnisfive> :P
18:53:23 <psygnisfive> what would they look like bitch
18:54:08 <oklopol> basically i was thinking, a few example programs, a web-interface for running progs, and you have a certain thing you need to code in the lang, and if you manage to do that, you liek win
18:54:57 <psygnisfive> hmm
18:55:05 <psygnisfive> sounds good!
18:55:19 <psygnisfive> a combination of figure out how the language works AND put that knowledge to use
18:55:26 <oklopol> yeah
18:55:47 <oklopol> i have an idea already
18:55:53 <psygnisfive> ok so that + parser/interpreter writing
18:56:04 <psygnisfive> + designing impossible to parse/interpret languages
18:56:10 <psygnisfive> not impossible but
18:57:30 <ais523> Perl is impossible to parse
18:57:32 <ais523> in finite time
18:57:35 <ais523> in all cases
18:57:39 <psygnisfive> hahaha
18:57:40 <psygnisfive> :)
18:57:46 <ais523> the problem of determining whether a Perl program contains a syntax error is TC
18:57:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: hes not joking
18:57:55 <ehird> it's true
18:58:12 <ehird> http://mazonka.com/mp3/index.html <- The awful, awful music by the inventor of Subleq and the writer of the fastest bf interp
18:58:12 <ehird> :D
18:58:55 <jayCampbell> a programming challenge around Liquid or its kin would be fun
18:59:07 <jayCampbell> what's the basis for the contest you're talking about?
19:00:19 <psygnisfive> ey what
19:00:21 <jayCampbell> e.g. is it driven or ad hoc
19:00:26 <ehird> what
19:01:12 <ais523> contests here tend to be ad hoc
19:01:18 <jayCampbell> cool
19:01:29 <oklopol> okay i think the language is ready
19:01:32 <ais523> and never actually judged, the 2000 Essies went down in history because they actually finished, with a defined winner
19:01:32 <oklopol> it's awesome.
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19:02:10 <oklopol> i'm actually surprised how fun things i can concoct when not aiming for absolute perfection
19:02:13 <ehird> how did ABCDEF go
19:02:15 <oklopol> well also i'm not aiming for tcness here, so
19:03:34 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host).
19:03:56 <ais523> ehird: never call it that, and it collapsed because nobody made the ideas into an esolang
19:04:04 <ehird> ais523: why never call it that
19:04:14 <ais523> it says so, you always have to write the name out in full
19:04:30 <ais523> just like brainfuck isn't a proper noun
19:04:39 <ais523> thus is spelt lowercase-b except at the start of a sentence
19:05:11 <ehird> ABCDEF
19:05:11 <ehird> ABCDEF
19:05:11 <ehird> ABCDEF
19:05:12 <ehird> ABCDEF
19:05:12 <ehird> ABCDEF
19:05:14 <ehird> RULEBREAKAGE
19:09:11 <ais523> also, I have a working solution in Perl to that anagolf problem but it times out
19:09:19 <ais523> probably I'll have to compile rather than interpret
19:09:45 <ais523> $r=qr/[^`]|`(??{$r})(??{$r})/;while($_="``".<>){s/
19:09:46 <ais523> /xy/;s/`i($r)/$1/&&redo;s/``k($r)$r/$1/&&redo;s/```s($r)($r)($r)/``$1$3`$2$3/&&redo;s/`x($r)/$1/&&++$l&&redo;print"$l
19:09:48 <ais523> ";$l=0;}
19:09:49 <ais523> if you're interested
19:10:04 <ais523> as always in golf programs, literal newlines are common to save on characters
19:10:29 <ais523> it's a pretty simple naive SKI interp
19:11:57 <psygnisfive> someone explain forth branching to me! :|
19:12:53 <Deewiant> ais523: do literal newlines depend on the newline format or is it always 0x10
19:13:04 <Deewiant> their value, that is
19:13:25 <ais523> Deewiant: Anagolf maps all newlines in the program to 0x0a before feeding them to the interp
19:13:37 <ais523> but counts them as two bytes unless you upload, as it receives them as \n\r
19:13:43 <ais523> so uploading is the way to get really high scores
19:13:49 <Deewiant> :-P
19:13:49 <ais523> *\r\n
19:14:09 <Deewiant> hmm, if you can rename 'redo' shortly that'd save a few bytes
19:17:30 <ais523> it's too slow to be entered anyway
19:17:54 <ais523> and yes, you can group the redos together using s/a/b/||s/c/d/||s/e/f/ and redo
19:18:03 <ais523> I've done that before when using a similar structure
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19:24:46 <oklopol> okay
19:24:51 <oklopol> i'm not going to make a php version yet
19:24:59 <oklopol> but you can try figuring this out from the example program
19:25:17 <psygnisfive> hold on oklopol, we need to organize this proper like
19:25:17 <oklopol> may be trivial, may be insanely hard, i haven't exactly heard anyone try this.
19:25:24 <oklopol> we do? :P
19:25:28 <psygnisfive> yes
19:25:42 <psygnisfive> we need to put up a little website with links to the interpreters
19:25:48 <psygnisfive> and a list of rules and such
19:25:54 <psygnisfive> then we need to take out advertisements
19:26:01 <psygnisfive> promote it for a few months
19:26:06 <oklopol> butbut, can i just paste it ;)
19:26:14 <psygnisfive> no!
19:26:43 <oklopol> well, if no one else has anything to say, then i guess there's no need to.
19:27:04 <psygnisfive> let me put together a page to act as an index
19:28:10 <psygnisfive> what kinda of challenge is your?
19:29:07 <oklopol> umm
19:29:13 <oklopol> it's basically a small program + output.
19:29:25 <oklopol> but, actually, because i already made the interp, i could just as well make a more complex one
19:29:27 <psygnisfive> right but what is the challenge
19:29:30 <oklopol> (hello world)
19:29:36 <psygnisfive> write a hello world?
19:29:52 <oklopol> hmm. i haven't actually thought about that, probably just something like hello world, it's a real tarpit, and prolly not tc
19:30:00 <psygnisfive> :P
19:30:09 <psygnisfive> this is why we need to think about these things first!
19:30:12 <psygnisfive> ok so three categories
19:30:37 <psygnisfive> 1: Given a blackbox interpreter and a sample program, write a program that does such and such
19:30:51 <oklopol> thinking is for noobs, i want ais523 to start reverse-engineering it.
19:30:54 <psygnisfive> 2: Given a language spec, write a parser (interpreter gets extra points)
19:31:09 <psygnisfive> 3: Design a language that's especially hard to parse
19:31:09 <oklopol> for some reason i think no one else will try, unless it's trivial.
19:31:13 <psygnisfive> 2 and 3 are paired, obviously
19:31:44 <oklopol> tbh i prefer having to code in the language.
19:31:51 <psygnisfive> ok?
19:32:03 <oklopol> but well, you're a linguist, so :P
19:32:04 <ais523> well, see if you can write a decent program before I can reverse-engineer the one you have already
19:32:14 <psygnisfive> oklopol, what?
19:32:21 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so you like syntax!
19:32:30 <psygnisfive> oh, you mean the parser/design thing
19:32:31 <oklopol> i'll try to write a hello world
19:32:32 <psygnisfive> ?
19:32:34 <ehird> syntax is boooring
19:32:36 <ehird> just make it #1
19:32:49 <psygnisfive> just what?
19:32:50 <psygnisfive> lol
19:32:56 <oklopol> but, anyway, i'm pretty sure i can create more of these languages, no matter if one gets spoiler.
19:32:58 <oklopol> *spoiled
19:33:22 <psygnisfive> ok so what were the ideas from before?
19:33:35 <psygnisfive> Hello, World!; 99 Bottles of Beer; Cat
19:33:36 <psygnisfive> what else?
19:33:43 <psygnisfive> Quine
19:33:51 <ais523> Lost Kingdoms
19:33:54 <ais523> (compiled, obviously)
19:33:58 <ais523> but Quine's a good one for the list
19:34:02 <oklopol> what ideas?
19:34:06 <psygnisfive> from earlier
19:34:11 <ais523> programs to write to prove you understand the language
19:34:11 <oklopol> umm did i have ideas
19:34:16 <oklopol> oh.
19:34:28 <oklopol> i didn't think i've talked about my ideas
19:34:37 <oklopol> but there are many standard ones people tend to make
19:34:53 <ais523> maybe interps for some simple esolangs?
19:34:57 <ais523> BF interp? dupdog interp?
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19:35:03 <ais523> Underload interp?
19:35:06 <oklopol> hmm
19:35:11 <oklopol> in my opinion, it should be simple
19:35:18 <oklopol> just enough to prove you know how it works.
19:35:25 <psygnisfive> no ais had ideas
19:35:42 <ais523> that would involve control flow, I/O, and data processing, I think
19:35:47 <ais523> those are what BF-complete langs need
19:35:56 <ais523> ofc in an esolang, data processing can mean more or less anything
19:36:01 <ais523> and I/O can be weird too
19:36:11 <ais523> and control flow can be even weirder than both
19:40:23 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
19:41:11 <oklopol> hmm.
19:41:29 <psygnisfive> oklopol, to pms
19:47:48 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152246423.txt
19:49:05 <oklopol> "run" is python, as are the """'s
19:49:38 <oklopol> also, the spaces shouldn't be in the output, they are there because python
19:53:09 <psygnisfive> what?
19:53:35 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
19:53:43 <psygnisfive> theres a link at the bottom see?
19:53:46 <psygnisfive> use it :p
20:00:30 <oklopol> err what link?
20:00:38 <oklopol> what does that have to do with anything
20:00:49 <oklopol> that was a sample program, and a sample output
20:01:29 <psygnisfive> yes but you should put all this in the page for the interp
20:01:35 <ais523> oklopol: psygnisfive wants everyone to make a web-page that looks like that for a web-based interp
20:01:37 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/sampleinterp.html
20:01:50 <psygnisfive> yes. the idea is that its nice and uniform
20:02:10 <ehird> um
20:02:11 <ehird> thats bullshit
20:02:15 <psygnisfive> what?
20:02:16 <ehird> everyone can work out how to use an online interp
20:02:18 <ehird> it's not rocket science.
20:02:33 <psygnisfive> yes, but its easier if theres just a standard thing that the author doesnt have to think about
20:02:37 <psygnisfive> i wrote the html for you
20:02:44 <psygnisfive> all you have to do is wrap your interp around it.
20:02:50 <psygnisfive> and put your sample code in.
20:02:51 -!- ais523 has left (?).
20:03:59 <psygnisfive> i mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
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20:04:02 <ehird> hi ais523
20:04:12 <ais523> whoops, messed up the keybindings in my window manager
20:04:18 <psygnisfive> good job :P
20:04:29 <Sgeo[College]> psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:04:42 <ais523> and hit /part by mistake
20:04:44 <ehird> Sgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:04:48 <ais523> which is a button here as well as a command
20:04:51 <ais523> and I clicked on it accidentally
20:04:59 <ais523> trying to figure out why nothing was responding to clicks
20:05:04 <psygnisfive> ehirdSgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:06:27 <ehird> psygnisfiveehirdSgeo[College]psygnisfivei mean, make oyur own, whatever, but the page is there for you to use if you want. and should have all those elements. thats the curcial point.
20:06:39 <psygnisfive> so anywqy
20:06:50 <psygnisfive> use the page, dont, whatever. but have all that shit.
20:06:54 <psygnisfive> because its necessary.
20:09:06 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
20:09:40 <oklopol> umm yeah i can use that interface if i put an interp up somewhere...
20:09:51 <psygnisfive> well you're gonna have to put the interp up somewhere :P
20:09:52 <oklopol> but i don't see what that has to do with my code sample.
20:10:10 <psygnisfive> put the code sample into the page.
20:10:15 <oklopol> not necessarily, perhaps i think that one sample is enough to reverse-engineer the whole language ;)
20:10:25 <psygnisfive> yes but then how will people know they did it right?
20:10:25 <oklopol> ohhhh
20:10:48 <oklopol> err they ask me?
20:10:51 <psygnisfive> the point of the interp is that you have to reverse engineer the language by experiment as well
20:11:06 <psygnisfive> i mean, you dont want to just GIVE THEM everything
20:11:08 <oklopol> afaik vjn's server doesn't run python with current configurations
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20:11:17 <psygnisfive> you want to let them figure this shit out
20:11:42 <oklopol> no i'm not giving them everything, i'm giving them one code sample atm.
20:11:43 <psygnisfive> lemme see if my server runs python
20:11:59 <ehird> mine does.
20:12:11 <psygnisfive> sure. but the challenge, theoretically, is for more than just Hello World
20:12:16 <psygnisfive> did you read the page? :P
20:12:50 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
20:12:52 <oklopol> did i read the page?
20:12:54 <oklopol> err sure
20:13:13 <psygnisfive> your sample code should be enough to make it possible to do all four of those
20:13:25 <psygnisfive> (unless your language can't do some at all)
20:14:16 <oklopol> if you can run python, i can give you a .pyc, anything more is too much hassle
20:14:23 <ehird> oklopol: um
20:14:26 <ehird> you cant run .pycs as a cgi
20:14:27 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p152246423.txt is all anyone will ever need!
20:14:32 <ehird> well
20:14:33 <ehird> you could do
20:14:34 <ais523> ehird: why not?
20:14:36 <ehird> a regular cgi
20:14:38 <ehird> which does 'import foo'
20:14:40 <psygnisfive> oklopol: PMs.
20:14:42 <ehird> ais523: because you can't put a shebang on them
20:14:44 <ehird> because they're binary
20:14:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what about pm's?
20:14:52 <ais523> it's easy enough to do a wrapper
20:14:55 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
20:14:57 <psygnisfive> GO.
20:16:29 <ais523> psygnisfive: I don't get who you're trying to do what atm
20:16:48 <oklopol> ais523: i don't get what sentence you mean is
20:16:55 <psygnisfive> ais: that was ungrammatical.
20:17:05 <ais523> I don't get who you're trying to get to do what atm
20:17:20 <psygnisfive> im trying to get anyone who wants to to do what they need to
20:18:16 <oklopol> ais523: did you reverse-engineer it yet? ;)
20:18:28 <ais523> nope, haven't been paying much attention
20:18:36 <ais523> also, my client's loading text files in OpenOffice atm
20:18:52 <ais523> making it a pain to read that
20:19:36 <oklopol> heh
20:23:18 <psygnisfive> so, anyone wanna do entries? :D
20:23:55 <ehird> nope.
20:23:59 <psygnisfive> :(
20:24:05 <psygnisfive> ais? :D
20:24:50 <ais523> not right now
20:24:51 <ehird> brb
20:24:53 <ais523> maybe later
20:24:58 <psygnisfive> later as in?
20:25:01 <ais523> but, you know, I can't design interesting esolangs straight-off
20:25:05 <ais523> so later as in when I have a good idea
20:27:33 <psygnisfive> deewiant!
20:27:41 <Deewiant> yikes!
20:29:15 <psygnisfive> wanna contribute? :)
20:30:14 <Deewiant> what, the challenge?
20:30:19 <psygnisfive> yeah :D
20:31:23 <Deewiant> can't think of anything
20:31:44 <psygnisfive> well try!
20:31:51 <psygnisfive> part of the challenge is coming up with stuff
20:32:02 <psygnisfive> its like nanowrimo but for esolangs!
20:32:46 <Deewiant> I notice that the 2006 contest is still somewhat a WIP :-P
20:33:40 <psygnisfive> yes well noones bugging anyone about that
20:33:44 <psygnisfive> i however will bug you people
20:34:01 <oklopol> this is a very different kind of competition
20:34:43 <psygnisfive> it is :D
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20:40:56 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/2008esolangchallenge.html
20:41:06 <psygnisfive> submit entries!
20:41:12 <psygnisfive> get your esocreative juices flowing!
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21:12:00 <oklopol> i think i have another language idea, but this one is even weirder.
21:12:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the spaces between chars are because python, the program shouldn't actually produce them
21:12:42 <psygnisfive> what/
21:12:52 <oklopol> also can't you use a fixed character width?
21:12:58 <psygnisfive> sure
21:12:59 <oklopol> the output, it's h e l l o now, should be hello
21:13:05 <psygnisfive> ok
21:13:09 <psygnisfive> and in the source??
21:13:15 <jayCampbell> ::::::::::.:.:::::::.
21:13:15 <jayCampbell> ........23!.::::.
21:13:15 <jayCampbell> 20!..:..56!:.::...:.:@...::@@.:@
21:13:16 <jayCampbell> 66!..::@........
21:13:27 <jayCampbell> doesn't look much different fixed width
21:13:33 <jayCampbell> i was hoping for a moria map
21:13:36 <oklopol> i mean, periods don't exactly look all that clean next to each other, and some languages may require vertical lines.
21:13:41 <oklopol> (2d languages taht is)
21:13:47 <oklopol> ...moria map?
21:14:12 <ais523> I have a few guesses, from inspection of the program
21:14:15 <oklopol> with fixed width you can *read* it, that's the difference.
21:14:17 <psygnisfive> oklopol
21:14:18 <psygnisfive> pm
21:14:21 <ehird> psygnisfive: submission:
21:14:22 <ehird> sjfldsfjdls jskldfjsdklfj sljlskdfklsdf
21:14:24 <ehird> figure out what it does
21:14:37 <ais523> ehird: that's you banging on your keyboard, or else made to look very like that
21:14:41 <ehird> ais523: the latter
21:14:54 <psygnisfive> ehird: please adhere as strictly to the guidelines as possible.
21:14:58 <psygnisfive> submission rejected.
21:15:00 <psygnisfive> F+
21:15:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: no.
21:15:13 <ehird> gee a high barrier to entry sure is the way to get people involved
21:15:28 <psygnisfive> its not a high barrier to entry at all cunt bag
21:15:39 <jayCampbell> ehird's is a `cat` in a ringed state engine
21:15:45 <jayCampbell> next?
21:15:49 <ehird> jayCampbell: no.
21:15:50 <oklopol> ehird: there's really not much you can do without sample input
21:15:58 <oklopol> you probably didn't know that.
21:15:59 <ehird> it is like a cat banging on a keyboard admittedly
21:16:01 <ehird> but not `cat`
21:16:01 <jayCampbell> maybe it's something else *also*
21:16:36 <ais523> anyway, should I share my guesses about oklopol's lang here, or privately, or just keep them to myself?
21:16:47 <oklopol> ais523: tell in my pric
21:16:49 <oklopol> *priv
21:16:53 <ehird> ais523: in here
21:25:53 <ehird> oklopol: OKLOPOL
21:26:14 <ais523> ehird: I told oklopol in /msg so as not to spoil for anyone else
21:26:20 <ehird> oklopol: oklopol llllllllll
21:26:33 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk selfmodifying syntaxyyyyyyy
21:26:41 <psygnisfive> oklopol is away
21:26:49 <ehird> >:(
21:26:55 <ehird> but if i talk long enough to him
21:26:56 <jayCampbell> by moria i meant a dungeon map
21:26:57 <ehird> he will HEAR ME
21:27:06 <psygnisfive> he wont
21:27:08 <psygnisfive> hes dead
21:27:09 <psygnisfive> i killed him
21:27:16 <ehird> oh.
21:27:16 <ehird> k
21:31:55 <oklopol> well yeah i will, but i'm really trying to leave for tonight. and actually decided i wouldn't say anything when i sit here. but then i did say this message.
21:32:22 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk done have self-modify syntax
21:32:49 <psygnisfive> ais523
21:32:55 <jayCampbell> what default parser toolkit do you guys use?
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21:32:58 <psygnisfive> you have to make a program that does Hello World
21:33:03 <psygnisfive> at least.
21:33:10 <ehird> jayCampbell: we hand-code, mostly
21:33:13 <psygnisfive> 99 bottles of beer if you want the prize
21:33:16 <ais523> jayCampbell: it depends on the situation, for esolangs it's often either possible or necessary to hand-code
21:33:21 <oklopol> it's not done have it's designed have. actually was one of my design goals for the later version plannings of oklotalk.
21:33:23 <ais523> so hand-coded if it's either very easy or very difficult
21:33:24 <ehird> the language of choice for implementing seems to be either c or python around here
21:33:27 <ehird> depending on the person
21:33:41 <ais523> all sorts of stuff for in-between, for instance C-INTERCAL is lex/yacc
21:33:45 <oklopol> to have very syntax syntax.
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21:33:52 <ais523> also, I commonly use Perl for stuff for which it's appropriate
21:33:56 <ehird> other esolangs are also prime things for implements
21:33:57 -!- ehird has left (?).
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21:34:05 <ehird> oh yeah perl too
21:34:09 <psygnisfive> i prefer to implement with JS or Ruby because of the flexibility
21:34:13 <ais523> and yes, implementing esolangs in other esolangs is common if it works
21:34:21 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:34:21 <jayCampbell> perl is the original rapid development platform
21:34:28 <lament> rabbit
21:34:51 -!- ehird has joined.
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21:35:26 -!- ehird has joined.
21:35:56 <ehird> hey
21:35:59 <ehird> aaaaaa
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21:36:16 <lament> aaaaaaa
21:36:30 <ehird> lament: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
21:36:34 <lament> aa
21:43:59 <jayCampbell> i'm pondering a parsablility challenge where the program text is a set of parameters to a darwinian environment full of code snippets .. you can't program, you can simply attempt to grow a program that approaches the desired output
21:45:11 <ehird> great
21:45:46 <ehird> a program which generated the correct grower for a program would, of course, be called intelligent_design
21:46:28 <jayCampbell> we'll be happier when we figure out god's fitness test methods?
21:47:23 <ehird> :D
21:47:48 <psygnisfive> jaycampbell: be aware that the parsability challenge requires that you design and submit specs for a language, and then people try to make a parser for it.
21:48:00 <psygnisfive> presumably you should have some idea of how it should work. :P
21:48:12 <ais523> psygnisfive: why have you gone all "I'm defining the contest to work exactly like this and you do as I say" on us?
21:48:17 <jayCampbell> that's the problem, i'd rather write the parser than the spec
21:48:20 <ehird> ais523++
21:48:22 <jayCampbell> specs are just sci-fi
21:48:28 <ehird> psygnisfive is being a dictator
21:48:35 <psygnisfive> well you can write a parser thats fine
21:49:05 <jayCampbell> this is a job for ruby
21:49:46 <jayCampbell> randomly constructed methods in _why's sandboxes
21:49:49 <ais523> probably lots of langs would work
21:50:11 <jayCampbell> it has to be interpreted
21:50:15 <ehird> _why is awesome.
21:50:22 <ais523> you could write an interp in a compiled language
21:50:33 <ais523> for that matter, you can write compilers in interpreted langs
21:50:47 <ais523> useful for golfing as if you're compiling into the same lang, you can just put an eval at the end to get an "interp"
21:50:52 <jayCampbell> ruby metaprogramming feels right for this one
21:51:11 <jayCampbell> but yeah
21:51:27 <jayCampbell> the genetic programming harness and the critter language don't have to be the same
21:52:00 <jayCampbell> i remember the other competition meta-idea i head
21:52:01 <jayCampbell> had
21:52:21 <jayCampbell> core wars-ish
21:52:44 <jayCampbell> programs must not only execute their intended function, but defend themselves from other submissions
21:52:57 <jayCampbell> base it on one of the friendlier languages
21:53:13 <ais523> there's FukYorBrane already, but it's broken
21:53:22 <jayCampbell> something high level, ideally something that can be stepped through to keep compute cycles divvied fairly
21:53:33 <ais523> probably Funge would be a good choice then
21:53:41 <ais523> it's one of the higher-level esolangs
21:53:48 <ais523> and has strict concurrency stepping rules
21:54:01 <ais523> also, it's self-modifying (and thus other-modifying), what more could you want?
21:54:07 <jayCampbell> actually
21:54:53 <jayCampbell> most esolangs could be given the core wars abstraction layer
21:55:26 <jayCampbell> add a second pointer and thread
21:55:44 <jayCampbell> N running programs, one memory space
21:57:10 <jayCampbell> you guys are real fans of these compact esolangs .. single byte commands and limited stacks
21:57:45 <ais523> Tarpits
21:57:57 <ais523> they're a good way to show off a particularly unusual idea
21:59:58 <ehird> jayCampbell: they're simple to make, is why they're so popular
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22:00:11 <psyg5> >.<
22:00:22 <psyg5> damn connection
22:00:47 <psyg5> uh
22:00:56 <psyg5> so yeah, jaycampbell it was
22:00:56 <psyg5> ?
22:02:05 <jayCampbell> those little state engines are good practice for tcp programming
22:02:48 <jayCampbell> shakespeare is mis-categorized, it's not a high level language
22:02:54 <ais523> nope
22:02:57 <ais523> hardly any esolangs are
22:04:56 <psyg5> so, like i said
22:05:04 <psyg5> if you submit both the language and the parser, thats fine
22:05:10 <jayCampbell> i guess as soon as you introduce reflection you open up porting to whole ruby standard library to your not-so-eso-anymore-lang
22:05:12 <psyg5> we're just going to keep them separate in the challenge
22:05:30 <psyg5> and if your parser doesnt work, well, that sucks for you. :P
22:05:59 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:06:23 <psyg5> but yeah, jaycampbell, do design such a language
22:06:51 <jayCampbell> it's non-deterministic
22:06:56 <jayCampbell> and can't be turing complete
22:06:57 <psyg5> im going to try to design one and provide a parser, sometime two weeks from now
22:07:38 <psyg5> as i noted, you can design any sort of language not just a programming language, for the parsability challenge.
22:07:40 <psyg5> so do it :D
22:08:01 <jayCampbell> ha
22:08:33 <jayCampbell> that's a broad challenge then
22:09:06 <psyg5> yep. its more in the Esoteric Formal Language category than strictly Esoteric Programming Language category
22:09:24 <psyg5> but esoproglangs can be esoformlangs too
22:09:41 <psyg5> and parsability is especially more a formal thing
22:09:49 <psyg5> whereas interpretability is a programming thing
22:09:52 <psyg5> so either one is cool
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22:10:47 <psyg5> if you do the parsability part, the weirder the language the better
22:10:56 <psyg5> the harder it is to parse something, the better it is as a challenge.
22:11:46 <psyg5> which means weirder = better
22:15:50 <oklopol> 23:53:11 ais523: there's FukYorBrane already, but it's broken <<< ?
22:16:08 <ais523> oklopol: because you can move your IP faster than the enemy program can catch up with it
22:16:31 <ais523> so you can have 1000000 bytes of junk inside a loop that never runs, then you have a million free cycles undisruptable by the opposing program
22:18:03 <oklopol> i see
22:18:13 <oklopol> GregorR: i hear you suck ass, is this true?
22:21:54 <ehird> GregorR: me too
22:25:05 <jayCampbell> it doesn't have to be a direct core war analogy where you pollute the other guy's code
22:26:32 <jayCampbell> other intermediate goals and challenges could be artificially glued on
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22:49:06 <oklopol> ehird: i heard from a reliable source that you suck too, is this true?
22:49:25 <ehird> yes
22:49:51 <oklopol> anyway wasn't BeYourFunge ehird's corewards on befunge?
22:49:57 <oklopol> *core awards
22:49:58 <ehird> yes
22:50:01 <ehird> but it didnt work lulz
22:50:13 <oklopol> yeah i vaguely recall something like that.
22:50:15 <oklopol> sleep ->
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23:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
23:01:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I forgot to ask: Had any time for gcc-bf?
23:01:33 <AnMaster> or ick?
23:02:07 <ais523> AnMaster: no
23:02:54 <psyg5> anmaster
23:03:00 <psyg5> will you participate in the challenge?
23:12:00 <jayCampbell> rather than genetic cycles, what if program text was the source for a markov chainer
23:12:26 <jayCampbell> with a deterministic random number generator
23:12:51 <jayCampbell> so given the right source texts it might eventually be shown turing complete
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