←2008-11-13 2008-11-14 2008-11-15→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:07:45 <psygnisfive> hey guys :D
00:10:36 <lament> optbot!
00:10:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure, but it's also substantially superior to the Wiz :P.
00:10:39 <lament> optbot!
00:10:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | My head is hairy..
00:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Its just really frustrating.
00:41:37 <MizardX> Hmm... I made an interpeter for Redivider in python, and an interpreter for Brainf**k in Redivider. It throws up after ~1000 bf instructions (stack overflow), but does Redivider still count as turing complete?
00:43:43 <oerjan> python stack overflow?
00:43:56 <oerjan> if so, that's not redivider's problem
00:44:11 <MizardX> python stack overflow, yes.
00:44:49 <oerjan> iirc python has an arbitrary stack limit that can be annoying
00:45:38 <oerjan> and presumably no tail call optimization either
00:45:49 <MizardX> no
00:47:26 <MizardX> Neither in python nor my rd interpreter. That could be a goal for the next version.
00:48:41 <MizardX> Where could I upload the code? Pasting 500 lines of python on the wiki doesn't sound very appealing.
00:48:58 <oerjan> for turing completeness, you usually assume no arbitrary resource limits
00:49:50 <oerjan> right, some people here have access to the esoteric file archive, not me though
00:51:31 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esolang:The_Esoteric_File_Archive
00:53:47 <oerjan> GregorR and pgimeno are here regularly, at least, GregorR might even be here now
00:55:02 <oerjan> although it's probably not a good idea if the interpreter is still under too much development
00:55:51 <oerjan> hm also there's that eso-std.org site or something like that which some are using
01:00:03 <oerjan> i'm sure there are lots of free places, but i don't use them, what little i do i put on my homepage
01:00:59 * oerjan notes that the eso-std.org homepage is not overly informative :D
01:01:17 <oerjan> i _think_ it may be ehird's and ais523's site
01:02:46 <MizardX> Well... I put the bf-interpreter on the wiki at least. It's only 182 lines, 100 of which is atoi/itoa. http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter
01:06:22 <oerjan> hm right, optbot is running there and belongs to ehird
01:06:23 <optbot> oerjan: ~exec sys.stdout.write("foo")
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01:26:36 <GregorR> "sometimes i fly around in a spaceship :>"
01:26:38 <GregorR> Wow
01:26:43 <GregorR> THAT's useful.
01:27:28 <oerjan> i guess ehird is secretly Calvin
01:27:39 <oerjan> and ais523 is Hobbes
01:27:49 <Slereah2> Once I was in a spaceship and I saw my house!
01:28:19 <GregorR> oerjan: And the (2,3) machine has only been proven complete in the minds of comic book readers everywhere D-8
01:28:40 <oerjan> GregorR: maybe that's for the best
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01:38:22 <warrie> I nominate myself for the position of Hobbes.
01:38:50 <GregorR> Because of the Calvin-raping-Hobbes scenes you don't usually see in the comic.
01:39:03 <Slereah2> I have pictures of such scenes
01:39:06 <Slereah2> Do you want them
01:39:28 <GregorR> Rule 34 8-D
01:39:49 <warrie> I also nominate myself for the position of Ozymandias Justin Llewellyn, who, according to the Encyclopedia Dramatica, is just a lousy clone of Hobbes. I think.
01:40:13 <Slereah2> *Ozy
01:40:31 <Slereah2> Ozy and Millie is a more LIBERAL version of Calvin and Hobbes
01:40:38 <warrie> Ah, of course.
01:41:25 * warrie peeks at the Bird Brains, the I Drew This blog, authored by D. C. Simpson, Thomas K. Dye, and some other guy
01:42:19 <Slereah2> Do you remember that INTERNET WAR with R H Junior?
01:42:23 <Slereah2> That was hilarious
01:43:43 <GregorR> so i herd u liek BLOODkips
01:44:31 <warrie> No, I just read about it on the Encyclopedia Dramatica.
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06:04:13 <oklopol> hi i'm new here, what's this channel about is it about mudkips?
06:04:31 <oklopol> (i liek mudkips somewhat)
06:04:49 <oklopol> talk to you later, need to go do stuff ->
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06:32:53 <lament> <><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><<><
06:33:13 <lament> ><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>>
06:33:51 <lament> ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <>< ><> <><
06:34:15 <lament> ><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><
06:34:30 <lament> ><>< ><>< ><>< ><>< ><><
06:35:38 <lament> #! < <>< < ><> ><> <>< > >
06:35:51 <lament> fishp?
06:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and join #bsmnt_bot_chroot_errors so you can see all the exceptions that you just raised.
06:43:24 <lament> FISHP
06:50:04 <bsmntbombdood> so i herd u liek mudkips?
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08:54:34 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant, I have another for you to verify if you don't mind (and also if you could get it primted in a decimal string): 3^6184 -2
08:56:08 <Deewiant> is prime
08:56:19 <AquaLoqua> Oh yeah :D
08:56:24 <AquaLoqua> Thanks Deewiant :)
08:56:47 <fizzie> "bc" will give you a decimal string of it just fine, though.
08:57:07 <AquaLoqua> Can it be ported (Cygwin)?
08:57:14 <Deewiant> cygwin has it.
08:57:27 <AnMaster> morning
08:57:31 <AquaLoqua> Ok, roger that
08:57:38 <Deewiant> AquaLoqua: and you can just put it into GHCi as well :-P
08:57:58 <AquaLoqua> What, really?
08:58:07 <Deewiant> sure
08:58:15 <AquaLoqua> Heh, you're right, wow, I didn't know it had arbitrary precision
08:58:18 <AquaLoqua> that's awesome
08:58:41 <fizzie> (- (expt 3 6184) 2) in any Scheme system worth it's salt, also.
08:58:57 <fizzie> s/'//
08:58:58 <AquaLoqua> (brb, pre-lunch meal)
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09:38:42 <AquaLoqua> back, should anyone be interested
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11:21:46 <oklopol> mornin.
11:22:31 <AnMaster> -oklopol- Fri Nov 14 13:22:02 2008 <-- hm
11:22:36 <AnMaster> well not morning IMO ;P
11:22:52 <oklopol> but i'm tired :<
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12:27:09 <oklopol> fizzie: actually i was wrong about knowing how to run, i've only recently learned to run.
12:27:27 <oklopol> technically i was just "jumping around" before.
12:27:48 <oklopol> because i think the definition of running is only one foot touches ground between the jumps.
12:28:07 <oklopol> and in walking you always have 1-2 feet on the ground
12:28:44 <oklopol> i was doing something in-between, because i relied on the leg behind me to make me kinda tilt forward at impact so i can jump into the right direction.
12:28:51 <oklopol> hard to explain really.
12:29:24 <oklopol> but anyway, now i'm actually running, i'm pretty fast too. still falling down a lot, but now it occasionally actually looks like running.
12:29:43 * oklopol continues ->
12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | dad runs our wireless internet.
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12:50:03 <AquaLoqua> Hrmm, I logged in?
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13:02:48 <oklopol> got to 83.9 meters
13:03:18 <oklopol> the problem is after the ~10 hours of gameplay i get so excited from getting near the goal i actually forget what the buttons do.
13:04:18 <oklopol> this is usually my problem, i can either get it done on a few attempts, or i can die a few times near the beginning, after which i lose self-confidence, and progress becomes slow.
13:04:36 <oklopol> but, it's not like i'm in a hurry, i have a good 120 years left.
13:08:08 <oklopol> lol. now i can suddenly get to 50 meters routinely.
13:08:13 <oklopol> i should really get my brain inspected
13:08:20 * oklopol continues
13:13:44 <fizzie> You're making good progress there.
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13:31:33 <oklopol> fizzie: being sarcastic? :P
13:32:01 <oklopol> my only real feat here is patience, i doubt anyone else could play this for this long without succeeding.
13:33:01 <oklopol> but, enough for today, it's in god's hands now whether i succeed tomorrow or on sunday
13:33:09 <oklopol> if i don't, it's going to be a rough monday :P
13:33:55 <oklopol> actually i'll play another half an hour, this day is going to be wasted anyway, due to certain social events :<
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13:41:35 <oerjan> +ul ((<)(>)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
13:41:37 <thutubot> <>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<><>><><<>><<><>><<>><><<>><<><>><><<><>><<>><><<> ...too much output!
13:49:45 <oklopol> o
13:51:02 <oerjan> +ul ((o)(k)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
13:51:03 <thutubot> okkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkookkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookokkokookkookokkokookokkookkokookkookokkookkokookokkokookkookokko ...too much output!
13:58:29 <oerjan> hm that's funny
13:58:59 <ehird> hi ais
13:59:00 <ehird> hi ais523
13:59:04 <ais523> hi ehird
13:59:26 * ais523 thinks they wrote the world's slowest Underload interpreter yesterday
13:59:31 <oerjan> ais523: do you know why it prints twice as much of the second program as the first, despite only differing in the printed characters?
13:59:58 <oerjan> (thutubot)
14:00:50 <ais523> oerjan: it only breaks after the end of an S command
14:01:05 <ais523> it finishes the string it's on before realising there's too much output
14:01:14 <fizzie> But the only change was the characters inside ()s.
14:01:23 <oerjan> as fizzie said
14:01:35 <ais523> < and > are two characters in Thutu
14:01:39 <ais523> each
14:01:40 <oerjan> oh
14:01:50 <ehird> why?
14:01:59 <ais523> it escapes all punctuation marks
14:02:03 <ehird> ah
14:02:06 <ais523> so that the unescaped versions can be used to avoid collisions
14:02:09 <ais523> with the input
14:02:34 <fizzie> Coincidentally, "kokko" (which is an often-occurring substring in that output) is the Finnish word for a bonfire.
14:03:51 <oklopol> Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko
14:04:03 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
14:04:21 <oklopol> is "Kokko" actually a name? i never checked.
14:04:44 <oklopol> oh
14:04:46 <oklopol> actually it's
14:05:03 <oklopol> "Kokko, kokoo kokoon koko kokko." "Koko kokkoko?" "Koko kokko."
14:05:16 <oerjan> does that mean something?
14:05:26 <oklopol> Kokko, please build the whole bonfire
14:05:30 <oklopol> the whole bonfire?
14:05:33 <oklopol> the whole bonfire.
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14:06:16 * oerjan now understands kokko, and the -ko suffix
14:06:49 <oklopol> "koota" is kinda "to gather up" or something similar
14:07:15 <oklopol> in third person becomes "kokoa", "kokoo" is the colloquial way to say it
14:07:46 <oklopol> err, becomes "kokoa" in imperative, also in third person, but that was not used in the sentence
14:07:58 <oklopol> "koko" is "whole"/"entire"
14:08:48 <oklopol> "kokoon" doesn't really mean anything there, it's like "build into a state of being built".
14:08:52 <oklopol> build is a bad verb for that
14:09:07 <oklopol> anyway, hope you enjoy your new vague knowledge about finnish.
14:09:11 <oklopol> i need to read stuff now
14:09:12 <oklopol> ->
14:09:14 <oerjan> http://www.hvafor.no/article/setninger-best-ende-av-kun-like-ord.html
14:10:40 <oklopol> languages make me tickle
14:10:43 <oklopol> ->
14:19:36 <fizzie> There's another phrase a bit like that involving the word "kasvain" (tumor), the interjection "kas vain" (denoting vaguely something like being surprised), the adjective "vaivoin" ('with difficulty') and the verb "kasvaa" (to grow).
14:19:47 <fizzie> It's not as obviously silly as the "kokko" one, though.
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14:20:00 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Language_of_Finland
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14:22:14 <fizzie> I like the little-known fact there.
14:23:54 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/j
14:24:02 <ais523> ^ my Underload interpreter in Thue
14:24:15 <ais523> although I forgot how Thue did input when I wrote that so the program it runs is hardcoded
14:25:21 <oerjan> eep
14:26:18 <ais523> it's the slowest Underload interp I know
14:27:00 <fizzie> How slow is it, compared to, say, fungot's brainfuck interpreter running the brainfuck underload one?
14:27:01 <fungot> fizzie: use string=? and char=? to test the quality of those awake hours though :p.
14:27:24 <ais523> fizzie: even slower I think
14:27:25 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, how exactly am I supposed to do that?
14:27:26 <fungot> fizzie: although the statement you responded to a comment i made)
14:27:58 <oklokok> For exampy the prase "Sorry, I didn't hear correctly what you said, please repeat that?" is spelled "Anteeksi, en oikein kuullut, mitä sanoitte, olkaa kiltti ja toistakaa?" and pronounced as "hä?"
14:27:59 <oklokok> :P
14:28:17 <oklokok> well, that's just "huh?"
14:28:30 <oklokok> but i lolled a bit
14:28:56 <Deewiant> :-D
14:29:41 <Deewiant> "Juoksentelisimmekohan" was in my finnish book in lower secondary
14:29:50 <fizzie> The page continues -- or "mitäh?" or "vittu puhu suomee!"; those are just "what?" and "[expletive] speak Finnish!"
14:30:04 <oklokok> i usually say "ö" for "yes"
14:30:18 <Deewiant> A cat was saying that, with a dog going "Skulle vi springa lite hit och dit utan någon särskilt ändamål"
14:30:31 <Deewiant> Or then the dog was saying it in finnish, I forget... the art was rather poor anyway
14:30:59 <oklokok> "e" for "no", but that's common
14:31:05 <oklokok> the rest can usually be done using "o"
14:31:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: That might be where the Uncyclopedia article got it from.
14:31:47 <Deewiant> Indeed
14:32:19 <Deewiant> Hence I related the tale so that all may partake in this interesting tidbit of Uncyclopedia history
14:33:03 <oklokok> we thank you for thaat
14:33:51 <fizzie> The one quote I remember from my Finnish book was the one about using relative pronouns correctly: "At home I spoke about the tiger to mother, who was kept locked in [her] cage." -- the relative clause was supposedly referring to the tiger, not the mother.
14:33:55 <Deewiant> The text was about agglutinative languages, of course.
14:34:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: I think that's ambiguous.
14:34:33 <oklokok> not in finnish
14:34:37 <fizzie> (In the Finnish version the word for cage was "häkissään", which includes the possessive suffix.)
14:34:37 <oklokok> oh
14:34:44 <oklokok> yeah it's not amb
14:35:04 <fizzie> "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jota pidettiin lukittuna häkissään."
14:35:08 <Deewiant> "Kotona puhuin tiikeristä äidille, joka oli lukittuna häkissään?"
14:35:11 <Deewiant> right
14:35:19 <oklokok> yeah, that's unambiguous, means the mother is in her own cage.
14:35:45 <Deewiant> right, true
14:35:52 <fizzie> Something like that. I think Korpela's pages might have that quote. :p
14:35:53 <Deewiant> makes no sense but fine
14:35:54 <Deewiant> :-P
14:35:59 <ais523> $ time ./thue.pl ulhello.t
14:36:00 <ais523> Hello, world!
14:36:01 <oklokok> "jota" refers to the words just before it, unless there's a pronoun that changes the referent.
14:36:01 <ais523> real0m10.081s
14:36:03 <ais523> user0m9.809s
14:36:04 <ais523> sys0m0.044s
14:36:24 <ais523> and that's just the (Hello, world!)S program
14:36:36 <Deewiant> The sentence itself is weird, though. The mother is in her own cage? What's she doing in there?
14:36:47 <fizzie> "Kotona kerroin tiikeristä äidille, jonka täytyi elää vangittuna häkissään." says google.
14:36:49 <ais523> Deewiant: protecting herself from the nearby mobile phone mast
14:36:51 <oklokok> "...tiger to mother, which..." is about the mother, "...that tiger to mother, which..." refers to the tiger, but that sounds bad in finnish, there's really no simple way to say it right.
14:37:21 <oklokok> err
14:37:24 <Deewiant> just flip the word order
14:37:28 <oklokok> actually there is in this case, just flip yeah
14:37:32 <Deewiant> "Kotona kerroin äidille tiikeristä, "...
14:37:42 <oklokok> i assumed there wasn't, because i thought that was the point
14:37:52 <oklokok> there often isn't
14:37:55 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if it's fitting or not that we're discussing Finnish in #esoteric ;-)
14:38:19 <oklokok> the metalanguage is english, that's all that matters
14:38:25 <fizzie> Yes, and the point of the sentence was just to illustrate how "joka" very easily refers to the previous words.
14:38:47 <fizzie> Although I'm not sure... in some families, who knows.
14:38:48 <Deewiant> It always refers to the previous word.
14:39:08 <oklokok> "kerroin siitä tiikeristä äidille, jota eniten rakastan"
14:39:46 <oklokok> you can change the referent artificially, and sometimes it even sounds okay, even though i didn't feel like trying to find such an example.
14:40:14 <oklokok> if there's a set of tigers, which you're choosing the loveliest from, that refers to the tiger.
14:40:55 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
14:40:57 <Deewiant> No it doesn't, it's just incorrect. :-P
14:41:03 <fizzie> oklokokko.
14:41:07 <oklopol> Deewiant: no.
14:41:20 <Deewiant> "Kerroin eniten rakastamastani tiikeristä äidille." ;-)
14:41:33 <oklopol> a sentence meaning the same doesn't really prove much.
14:41:54 <oklopol> i don't fail at finnish, if i did, i'd change finnish to retroactively be right.
14:42:36 <oklopol> admittedly it does sound weird, it's a bit poetic. it's not incorrect.
14:43:08 <oklopol> your tiger is incorrect.
14:43:08 <Deewiant> It doesn't sound weird; it means "I told the mother whom I most love of that tiger."
14:43:09 <oklopol> ->
14:43:18 <Deewiant> And I'm trying to prove it. :-P
14:43:36 <oklopol> it can mean that, but it can also refer to the tiger.
14:43:40 <Deewiant> http://fi.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suomen_kieli/Sis%C3%A4lt%C3%B6 is unfortunately blank
14:43:44 <Deewiant> No, it cannot. :-P
14:43:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: help me out here.
14:44:04 <oklopol> "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan"
14:44:10 <Deewiant> Wrong.
14:44:28 <Deewiant> You'd lose a point for that in an essay. :-P
14:44:45 <oklopol> no i wouldn't. ask any native.
14:44:47 <Deewiant> it has to be "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen"
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14:44:55 <Deewiant> I am native and I tried to ask fizzie
14:45:07 <oklopol> yes, that was the joke
14:45:25 <Deewiant> I saw the joke and ignored it
14:45:28 <oklopol> "se tiikeri, jota eniten rakastan, on äidin mieleen" is definitely better
14:46:21 <oklopol> but it's common to change the referent using a pronoun, it's not wrong, just usually doesn't sound nearly as good.
14:46:27 <Deewiant> actually that's a relative, not an indefinite, pronoun.
14:46:48 <oklopol> true.
14:47:04 <Deewiant> But the wikibook fails anyway.
14:47:33 <fizzie> I do think "se tiikeri on äidin mieleen, jota eniten rakastan" sounds weird, but I also do think the relative clause there is still referring to the mother.
14:47:37 <Deewiant> Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Relative_pronouns says "refers to the previous word"
14:48:39 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if I have any old finnish books around
14:48:50 <oklopol> if you both believe it, i will wait for proof.
14:48:58 <fizzie> Generally on these kinds of debates I just check http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/index.html but I can't seem to find anything relevant right now.
14:49:01 <oklopol> not that i will believe you if you can prove you're right.
14:49:09 <oklopol> but you may have to believe me.
14:49:21 <fizzie> Are we distracting you from your running, by the way?
14:49:30 <oklopol> oh no, you're distracting me from reading
14:49:32 <ehird> hi ais523
14:49:49 <ais523> hi ehird
14:50:06 <fizzie> And why do I keep adding a space after a trailing ? in sentences still. It's been at least five years since that was last necessary to avoid the question-answering bot.
14:50:26 <oklopol> "se oppilas puhuu, jolla on puheenvuoro"
14:50:36 <oklopol> "se oppilas kertokoon mielipiteensä, jolla on puheenvuoro"
14:50:47 <oklopol> i'm so sure i'm right i could eat a horse.
14:51:13 <oklopol> evil plenker
14:51:22 <fizzie> How does eating a horse help?
14:51:41 <oklopol> you would be afraid of me, and thusly tell me anything i want to hear.
14:51:43 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, in those examples I would interpret it to refer to the student.
14:51:49 <ehird> fizzie: Why oid the bot? :P
14:52:28 <fizzie> ehird: The bot was just a bit annoying when trying to have a real conversation. Should've made it name-triggered instead of question-mark-triggered, really.
14:52:45 <ehird> Eh, annoying bots are cool beanios
14:52:46 <oklopol> fizzie: naturally, that's one of the cases where it sounds natural. that's the exact same construct, it's just you'd put the relative clause after the referent if it was any longer, so it doesn't look natural for longer examples.
14:52:49 <Deewiant> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/kielenopas/7.9.html#joka
14:52:57 <oklopol> that was a lot of natural
14:53:05 <Deewiant> hmm
14:53:11 <Deewiant> he doesn't say whether it's right or not
14:53:14 <Deewiant> Seuraavassa taas joka-sanan viittauksen kohteeksi tarjoutuu ensisijaisesti sana ”nelostiellä”. Lukija kyllä ymmärtää tämän tulkinnan mahdottomuuden ja hakee kohteen aiempaa. Mutta lukija rasittuu aivan turhaan.
14:53:18 <Deewiant> > Ohitimme Möttösten auton nelostiellä, jossa istui viisi henkeä.
14:53:28 <oklopol> Ohitimme niiden Möttösten auton, jotka olivat naapureitamme Kittilässä.
14:53:28 <oklopol> Tuolla on sen miehen koira, jota ehdotettiin isännöitsijäksi.
14:53:33 <oklopol> that's what i did.
14:53:34 <fizzie> He never says "right" or "wrong", it's not like it's a binary thing.
14:53:46 <Deewiant> Ah, there he says "right"
14:53:46 <Deewiant> Joskus tämäntapaiset tilanteet hoidetaan seuraavalla tavalla, joka on muo­dol­li­ses­ti kielen sääntöjen mukainen:
14:53:53 <Deewiant> O_o at the copy-paste
14:54:02 <Deewiant> firefox fails at &shy; ?
14:54:44 <fizzie> More likely whatever you paste it in is the one that fails.
14:54:54 <Deewiant> irssi?
14:54:56 <oklopol> yeah he says "the reader will find this confusing", but that's bullcrap, i'm not talking about "finnish that sounds pretty", i'm just telling you i'm technically right.
14:54:57 <fizzie> The soft hypens are, after all, part of the text, and should be copied.
14:54:59 <oklopol> the best kind of right.
14:55:20 <Deewiant> right
14:55:42 <Deewiant> Welp, I learned something today
14:55:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: The hyphens you pasted there are soft, it's just that terminal emulators don't much bother with that stuff.
14:56:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I figured Firefox's "view source" wouldn't bother either
14:56:11 <Deewiant> but I guess it did.
14:56:14 <oklopol> ...can i go now, or will there be more linguistics to argue about?
14:56:51 <oklopol> psygnisfive would be so pissed were he here
14:57:10 <fizzie> Run, oklopol, run. (Or read, as the case may be.)
14:57:11 <Deewiant> how's that
14:57:12 <ehird> wb ais523
14:57:27 <oklopol> Deewiant: well he's a linguist, but he couldn't really contribute
14:57:31 <ais523> well, I have an improved version of my Underload in Thue now which actulaly takes input
14:57:33 <ais523> let me paste it
14:57:40 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah, right, i shallll ->
14:58:08 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/k
14:58:26 <ais523> I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, but I'll stick with that for the time being
14:58:34 <ais523> now all I need is to tweak it a bit to do Underlambda Core in Thue
14:58:41 <ais523> I have a new project, you see
14:58:49 <ais523> which is to get all known TC esolangs to compile to each other
14:58:57 <ais523> and I'm hoping to do it by using Underlambda as an intermediate lang
14:59:21 <ais523> the idea is to have Underlambda as a high-level tarpit, that sounds like a contradiction but basically it can be done with only a few commands and loads and loads of libraries
14:59:54 <ais523> and Underlambda Core = Underload with different I/O
15:00:14 <ais523> incidentally, just adding one more command to Underload leads to all sorts of beauty
15:00:28 <ais523> the command is n, which replaces the stack with () if it has exactly one element
15:00:40 <ehird> http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/cgi-bin/shortpath.cgi?from=Hitler&to=List%20of%20Pokemon%20(241-260)
15:00:58 <AnMaster> hi ehird and ais523
15:01:10 <AnMaster> ehird: have you got KDE to work? :)
15:01:22 <ais523> hi AnMaster
15:01:28 <ais523> seen my Underload-in-Thue?
15:01:32 <AnMaster> no
15:01:34 <AnMaster> link?
15:01:42 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/k
15:01:42 <AnMaster> not that I know Thue so wouldn't help I guess
15:01:48 <ais523> luckily it doesn't open in a new window atm
15:01:51 <ais523> because ehird changed it
15:01:58 <AnMaster> ehird++
15:02:00 <AnMaster> for that change
15:02:03 <ehird> actually, i changed it 'cuz of a bug
15:02:09 <AnMaster> bug in what?
15:02:10 <ehird> and will probably change it back when i fix said bu
15:02:11 <ehird> g
15:02:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know Thue, so...
15:02:48 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
15:02:50 <ais523> it's very simple
15:02:56 <ais523> one of the most tarpitty tarpits around
15:03:04 <ehird> AnMaster doesn't know what thue is?
15:03:07 <ehird> jesus christ
15:03:10 <AnMaster> I know what it is
15:03:15 <AnMaster> but I don't know the syntax
15:03:18 <AnMaster> ...
15:03:29 <AnMaster> it is not a language I can program in
15:03:33 <AnMaster> or read programs in
15:03:51 <AnMaster> ehird, "not knowing a language" != "not knowing about a language"
15:04:04 <ais523> well that interpreter's mostly generated code anyway, to deal with all the possibilities for characters inside strings
15:04:19 <ais523> it doesn't allow < and > inside strings, but Underload's specified to not allow those
15:04:31 <fizzie> It's funny that the inverse path is just two clicks; List of Pokemon -> Time travel -> Adolf Hitler.
15:04:45 <ehird> fizzie: XD
15:05:33 <ais523> anyway, my main eso achievement of yesterday was an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler written as an Underlambda header file
15:05:44 <AnMaster> ais523, nice
15:05:55 <ais523> but unfortunately nobody but me knows any of the languages involved so they won't be able to tell what sort of achievement that is
15:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, still on GoboLinux?
15:06:26 <ehird> i know underlambda
15:06:27 <ehird> kinda
15:06:39 <ais523> ehird: well I changed some things and didn't tell anyone
15:06:55 <ais523> I want the language to be right first time for my Grand Unified Esolang Project
15:07:09 <AnMaster> "Execution consists of picking, from the list of rules, an arbitrary rule whose original string exists as a substring somewhere in the program state"
15:07:13 <AnMaster> random basically?
15:07:13 <ais523> whereby I write compilers from Underlambda to all known TC esolangs, and compilers from all known TC esolangs to Underlambda
15:07:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, at random
15:07:31 <ais523> although deterministic Thue interpreters normally produce the same results and run faster
15:07:32 <AnMaster> ais523, then getting the order of IO correct is very hard
15:07:35 <AnMaster> if not impossible
15:07:43 <ais523> no, it's easy
15:07:48 <AnMaster> really?
15:08:02 <AnMaster> "Input is performed using a special rule like this:
15:08:02 <AnMaster> <original string>::=:::
15:08:02 <AnMaster> "
15:08:23 <AnMaster> so it requires the input string to contain something that will make it change to the new state
15:08:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: usually you just have one spot in the string where you are actually doing rewriting.
15:08:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm
15:08:44 <oklopol> i mean
15:08:56 <AnMaster> but how would that work for input, since you *can't* know what the user will enter
15:09:10 <ais523> [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:07:59] <ais523> you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O
15:09:11 <ais523> [Fri Nov 14 2008] [15:08:39] <ais523> for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd
15:09:15 <ais523> (where / is newline)
15:09:15 <AnMaster> ah
15:09:17 <oklopol> you can have something like 0001100110X0110101, and X is kind of the "turtle", not sure what a good term would be
15:09:23 <oklopol> oh
15:09:27 <ais523> you just arrange things so that earlier I/O removes substrings that block later I/O
15:09:34 <ais523> for instance, ad::= world!/bc::=Hello,/::=/abcd
15:09:48 <oklopol> input is a problem
15:09:52 <ais523> oklopol: it acts sort of like an IP but you can have more of them
15:10:04 <oklopol> IP might work, but it's not exactly the same thing
15:10:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes that was what I meant
15:10:06 <ais523> oklopol: yes, luckily Underload bans various characters so you can rely on them not being in the input
15:10:12 <ais523> Underlambda bans # and |
15:10:20 <ais523> and Underload bans <>{}"
15:10:29 <ehird> ais523: so this project will replace c-intercal? ;)
15:10:36 <ehird> just treat C as an esolang for it :P
15:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, how will you know for sure that after user input there will actually exist something that is valid for user input?
15:10:51 <AnMaster> err
15:11:03 <AnMaster> that is valid for new state*
15:11:04 <AnMaster> I mean
15:11:14 <AnMaster> since order is unknown
15:11:20 <ais523> ehird: no, it's just a different project to work on
15:11:21 <ais523> although there will have to be an INTERCAL->Underlambda compiler involved somewhere, of course
15:11:31 <ehird> treat c as an esolang
15:11:35 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, you enclose it in known characters
15:11:36 <ehird> you get c->intercal and intercal->c
15:11:36 <AnMaster> ais523, to prevent another rule running before the input it would have to only be valid after input
15:11:45 <oklopol> ais523: if you get lazy, i volunteer for making some of the compilers, in case that wasn't a given.
15:11:52 <AnMaster> ais523, and I can't see any pattern matching or?
15:11:58 <ais523> and you make sure that nothing in the input might match the head of the rule
15:12:11 <ais523> no pattern matching is the main annoyance of Thue, you have to write all the patterns out by hand
15:12:16 <ais523> oklopol: thanks, probably I'll need it
15:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you make sure that other rule isn't run before?
15:12:21 <ais523> I need to finish speccing Underlambda first
15:12:25 <ehird> oklopol had a thue-alike
15:12:28 <ehird> that used actual graphic things
15:12:29 <ehird> it was 2d
15:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, since order isn't defined
15:12:38 <ais523> AnMaster: as long as you describe what you do logically, the order doesn't really matter
15:12:40 <ehird> foobar blah
15:12:41 <ehird> quuxz = etc
15:12:41 <ehird> bazzz foobar
15:12:42 <ehird> except, aligned
15:12:55 <ehird> not TC though; len(replacement) must == len(pattern)
15:12:59 <ais523> my Underload interp uses markers which are numbers in angle brackets to mark bits of the code that haven't been calculated yet
15:13:11 -!- oklokok has joined.
15:13:15 <ais523> they can't normally move past each other except in a few cases, so it has to finish calculating a bit of the program before it can be used
15:13:55 <ais523> although, it is a pipelined Underload interp, it can start on one command before it's finished the one before
15:13:55 <ais523> e.g. if you write aa both the closing parens will probably be added before either opening paren
15:14:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well. lets say you want the user to input a string, and no other state may be run before the user have input something. Sure you can ban certain bits from being entered. Fine. But how do you know that the string the user enter will suddenly enable one of the other states to be run
15:14:03 <AnMaster> ?
15:14:06 <ais523> but that doesn't matter, if you run, say, ^ or * after that it'll wait for the parens to be added before continuing
15:14:08 <AnMaster> say you want this basically:
15:14:09 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:14:13 <AnMaster> Enter your name:
15:14:16 <AnMaster> Hello <name>
15:14:20 <AnMaster> in Thue
15:14:35 <AnMaster> name may contain letters and spaces
15:14:39 <AnMaster> nothing else
15:14:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, say you know the name will be letters and spaces
15:14:52 <ais523> you can have, say, <1><2><3> as the initial string
15:14:57 <ais523> replace <2> with ::: (i.e. input)
15:14:57 <AnMaster> right
15:15:02 <AnMaster> indeed
15:15:15 <ais523> then you replace <1>A with <1><4>A and <4>A with output A
15:15:23 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:15:24 <ais523> <1>B with <1><4>B and <4>B with output B
15:15:26 <ais523> and so on
15:15:29 -!- oklopol has joined.
15:15:35 <AnMaster> ah you have to special case for all possible values
15:15:38 <AnMaster> I see
15:15:40 <ais523> yep
15:15:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what if the user just hits enter
15:15:57 <ais523> AnMaster: you have a replacement for <1><3> which runs at the end
15:16:01 <AnMaster> right
15:16:03 <ais523> and which can obviously only run once the string's been output
15:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you duplicate a string?
15:16:33 <AnMaster> say you want to output the name several times
15:16:45 <ais523> AnMaster: with difficulty, the string duplicate thing's probably the longest part
15:16:55 <AnMaster> heh
15:17:03 <AnMaster> and this language is actually tc?
15:17:05 <ais523> basically, you have a marker which runs through the input changing A to A<5A>, B to B<5B> and so on
15:17:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: you just saw a proof it is
15:17:25 <ais523> then you have a rule to change <5A>A to A<5A>, <5A>B to B<5A>, and so on
15:17:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, true
15:17:35 <AnMaster> but hard to believe
15:17:39 <oklopol> dunno
15:17:50 <ais523> so the <5> versions end up sorted at one end, and the original string at the other
15:17:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm
15:17:54 <oklopol> sk combinators take like an hour to make
15:17:56 <ais523> then you can de-<5> them
15:17:58 <oklopol> and it's conceptually trivial
15:18:06 <AnMaster> ais523, right
15:18:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you want to match ::= ?
15:18:21 <AnMaster> or match :::
15:18:23 <ais523> you have to match it in bits, that's a syntax thing
15:18:27 <AnMaster> ah right
15:18:31 <ais523> say by changing : to ; separately
15:18:38 <oklopol> programming it is actually simpler than, for instance, boolfuck, because you can extend from within, it's kinda like a langauge with two stacks.
15:18:40 <AnMaster> or some other encoding yeah
15:18:44 <ais523> (btw, that's what <88> is about in my Underload interp, it's so I can have replacements starting with ~)
15:18:54 <oklopol> it's just when moving around, you have to list all the possible characters that may be next to the ip.
15:18:59 <oklopol> if you want to be able to skip over them
15:19:07 <ais523> yes
15:19:08 <oklopol> *language
15:19:20 <AnMaster> is there really an IP?
15:19:25 <oklopol> not sure that makes much sense if you haven't actually programmed in it, but the point is it's simple.
15:19:26 <ais523> the bulk of the Underload interp is to allow arbitrary characters to skip over /other/ arbitrary characters
15:19:27 <oklopol> you can make an ip
15:19:35 <ais523> AnMaster: all Thue programs I've seen start off by implementing an IP
15:19:43 <ais523> the lang doesn't have one by default, but you can write one
15:19:43 <ehird> i'm sad that i missed MUD
15:19:45 <ehird> s
15:19:45 <oklopol> by making all rules explicitly only do stuff to a place where you have some kinda ip character.
15:19:54 <AnMaster> well you could make them massively parallel by not using an ip
15:20:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but that's more complicated to do.
15:20:11 <AnMaster> well true
15:20:26 <oklopol> i think my ski had some part where it can do two things in either order.
15:20:39 <ais523> oklopol: there's lots of nondeterminism in the Underload interp
15:20:45 <ais523> because commands are run asynchronously
15:20:51 <ais523> apart from ^ and S
15:20:51 <AnMaster> oh and since Game of Life is TC and very very parallel it should be able to take advantage of multi-core computers
15:20:53 <AnMaster> ;)
15:21:03 <ais523> (^ because it needs to know what to run before running it, S to make sure output happens in the right order)
15:21:11 <oklopol> ais523: yeah, but my ski doesn't work like that, evaluates lazily
15:21:15 <oklopol> err
15:21:26 <oklopol> yeah, lazily, always the outermsot
15:21:28 <oklopol> *outermost
15:21:41 <oklopol> (i think. don't remember exactly, something like that anyway)
15:21:46 * ais523 likes nondeterministic evaluation orders
15:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, is underlambda documented somewhere?
15:21:55 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underlambda says "no text"
15:21:56 <oklopol> nondeterminism is great
15:22:10 <oklopol> why am i here.
15:22:10 <oklopol> ->
15:22:17 <AnMaster> ehe
15:22:19 <AnMaster> heh*
15:22:45 <ais523> AnMaster: not publically yet
15:22:49 <ais523> I want to work out the details first
15:22:57 <ais523> but think Underload + preprocessor + different I/O + standard libraries
15:23:06 <ehird> ais523: give me an idea for a lang
15:23:09 <ais523> with the standard libraries normally optimised by interps
15:23:18 <ais523> ehird: I have a really crazy idea for a joke lang
15:23:24 <ehird> o?
15:23:27 <ais523> basically, all programs are numbers
15:23:45 <ehird> all programs ARE numbers
15:23:45 <ehird> :p
15:23:48 <ais523> when you enter a number, it goes to anagolf, looks for the problem with that number, then takes majority opinion of the non-cheat entries for it
15:23:54 <ehird> lol!
15:24:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well not really interesting if there is no page about the syntax
15:24:02 <Deewiant> non-cheat?
15:24:10 <AnMaster> since it is kind of hard to understand then
15:24:13 <ais523> so all sorts of well-known problems are very short
15:24:15 <ehird> Deewiant: special-casing the tests
15:24:22 <ehird> i.e. it only works on the inputs actually tested, nothing else
15:24:22 <AnMaster> I'm *NOT* going to reverse engineer that interpreter ;P
15:24:31 <Deewiant> ehird: ah, meh :-/
15:24:36 <ais523> AnMaster: the thing you saw above was an Underload interp, Underload's well-known
15:24:42 <AnMaster> ah
15:24:47 <ais523> Underlambda syntax is the same as for Underload, it just has a few more commands
15:24:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you talked about underlambda around the same time
15:24:54 <AnMaster> which confused me
15:24:56 <ais523> ok
15:25:02 <ehird> ais523: no it has ""
15:25:03 <AnMaster> too similar names
15:25:04 <ehird> as extra syntax
15:25:06 <ais523> ehird: oh, yes
15:25:10 <ais523> but that's just preprocessor stuff
15:25:29 <ais523> it becomes ((:::***)(:::::::::::::::***************))-like stuff once it's been preprocessed
15:25:30 <ehird> btw ais523 when will you finish overload
15:25:45 <ais523> ehird: probably never, as it's probably impossible to implement in a reasonable length of time
15:25:55 <ehird> :(
15:25:56 <ehird> why?
15:25:57 <ais523> whereas for Underlambda I'm actually trying to make it optimisable and compilable
15:26:15 <ais523> Underlambda is sort of fixed-Overload, learning from the lessons of what went wrong there
15:27:01 <AnMaster> ais523, no wiki entry on overload either?
15:27:07 <AnMaster> so what is that lang
15:27:09 <ais523> no, it definitely hasn't been released
15:27:16 <ais523> Overload is the lang that Underload is a tarpit version of
15:27:22 <AnMaster> hm
15:27:29 <AnMaster> and what stuff does overload add?
15:27:30 <ais523> it has pointers
15:27:33 <ais523> and gotos
15:27:35 <AnMaster> heh
15:27:42 * ehird watches AnMaster cringr
15:27:44 <ehird> *cringe
15:27:48 <ais523> well, it makes me cringe too
15:27:51 <ehird> without actually seeing him cringe, heh.
15:27:58 <AnMaster> ais523, fun, but seems like very very opposite to the underload paradigm
15:28:00 <ais523> goto + pointers + Underload is a worrying combination
15:28:05 <AnMaster> also I didn't cringe ehird!
15:28:08 <ais523> Overload was meant to work well in /every/ paradigm
15:28:20 <AnMaster> ah
15:28:23 <AnMaster> well that makes sense
15:28:30 <AnMaster> also I assume ehird is back on OS X
15:28:53 <ais523> [15:28] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from ehird: Colloquy 2.1 (3761) - Mac OS X 10.4.11 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info.
15:28:56 <ais523> easy enough to check
15:28:59 <AnMaster> true
15:29:12 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway he was nicer when he was on linux
15:29:15 <ehird> ais523: wat
15:29:17 <AnMaster> wonder if there is any connection
15:29:22 <AnMaster> probably not
15:29:29 <ais523> please, don't blow up an argument between you two now
15:29:35 <ehird> oh, AnMaster is talking about me?
15:29:40 <ais523> MOMENTOUS THINGS are happening in esolang programming
15:29:41 <ehird> i have him on /ignore, so no possibility of argument
15:29:48 <AnMaster> indeed
15:30:05 <ehird> although he's pissing me off indirectly, as it happens
15:30:10 <Deewiant> ais523: how momentous?
15:30:10 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what are these momentus things?
15:30:18 <Asztal> and if you don't want to see an argument, you can just ignore them both!
15:30:19 <AnMaster> ous*
15:30:27 <ais523> Deewiant: compilation from everything into everything else
15:30:30 <ais523> it's my goal with Underlambda
15:30:33 <Deewiant> heh
15:30:42 <ais523> to make it low-level enough for everything to be able to implement it easily
15:30:49 <ais523> but high-level enough to make it good at implementing things itself
15:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I really want to learn about it's syntax
15:30:50 <Deewiant> I suppose you'll implement every frontend and backend as well
15:31:01 <ais523> yes, that would be nice
15:31:11 <ehird> ais523:
15:31:13 <ais523> the great thing is that the frontends and backends can be implemented in any esolang to begin with
15:31:14 <ehird> you need to do underlambda->underlambda
15:31:15 <Deewiant> well, at least you have something to do
15:31:17 <ehird> and underlambda->underlambda
15:31:17 <ais523> then compiled into Underlambda
15:31:20 <ais523> ehird: I have that already
15:31:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about stuff like file IO and such for funge-98?
15:31:26 <ais523> first thing I did
15:31:26 <ehird> hahahah
15:31:33 <ehird> ais523: i suppose it's just cat(1)?
15:31:34 <ehird> that's cheatin
15:31:35 <ehird> g
15:31:36 <ais523> I don't have an Underlambda interp in Underlambda
15:31:38 <ais523> ehird: no
15:31:40 <ehird> you need to actually write a compiler
15:31:41 <ais523> but I do have a compiler
15:31:43 <ehird> that reduces it into simpler things
15:31:44 <ehird> XD
15:31:55 <ais523> atm I have an Underlambda Special -> Underlambda Core compiler
15:31:56 <ais523> apart from I/O
15:32:05 <ais523> (the tiers have more descriptive names now, yay)
15:32:10 <ais523> Underlambda Core is Underload minus S
15:32:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well it really locks me out since I have never seen any spec of underload
15:32:43 <AnMaster> while it seems ehird have
15:32:45 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
15:32:48 <AnMaster> err
15:32:50 <ais523> Underlambda is that + a few extra commands
15:32:53 <AnMaster> undelambda*
15:32:54 <AnMaster> I meant
15:32:57 <AnMaster> ..
15:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, they have too similar name
15:33:05 <AnMaster> names*
15:33:08 <ais523> ehird has seen an older version but I changed most of the extra commands since
15:33:12 <ais523> so really you're in the same boat
15:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well what makes it easy? And since you said it should be possible to compile anything to it, what about Funge-98 with SOCK and FILE and such?
15:33:51 <ais523> Q/(((!(a(:^)*):^)):)~^
15:33:52 <ais523> n/((a(^!^)a~*(^!^)a*a((^~!^)()(^!^))a*~^)((e%)S))~^
15:33:53 <ais523> !/((!)((e%)S))~^
15:33:55 <ais523> ^/((^)((e%)S))~^
15:33:56 <ais523> */((~!*(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:33:58 <ais523> ~/((~!~(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:33:59 <ais523> a/((a(^!^)a*a(:(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^)*(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:34:01 <ais523> :/((:(^!^)~(^!^))((e%)S))~^
15:34:02 <ais523> (/((
15:34:04 <ais523> )/)(^!^)):(^!^)a~*a~(^~!^)a~*a*~^
15:34:05 <ais523> #/(^~!^)
15:34:07 <AnMaster> hm
15:34:07 <ais523> |/
15:34:08 <ais523> /
15:34:10 <ais523> I'm planning to stick to BF-complete I/O for the grand translation
15:34:13 <AnMaster> ais523, and what is that?
15:34:24 <ais523> AnMaster: the same I/O capabilities brainfuck has
15:34:28 <ais523> anyway, see my paste above
15:34:29 <AnMaster> ais523, no that paste
15:34:30 <AnMaster> ....
15:34:36 <ais523> it's an Underlambda -> Underlambda compiler
15:34:42 <ais523> written as an Underlambda header file
15:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm.
15:34:57 <ais523> think: Underlambda before the slash, Underload afterwards
15:35:04 <AnMaster> right
15:35:09 <ais523> although the (e%)S is just a placeholder for an error routine atm, I'm not sure what to do on error
15:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well are those all the extra commands underlambda add?
15:35:48 <ais523> Q and n are two of the special commands it adds
15:35:53 <AnMaster> also if it is added to fungot, what would the command be? ^ul is in use
15:35:54 <fungot> AnMaster: unless they're pixel hunting games. i designed my own gui in sdl was too slow.
15:35:56 <ais523> # means "start of program"
15:36:03 <ais523> and Underlambda abbreviates to udl
15:36:06 <ais523> that's the file extension
15:36:09 <AnMaster> ah
15:36:23 <ais523> maybe I should start calling it Uddle, it would be easier to remember separately from Underload
15:36:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about other IO than just bf-complete ones?
15:37:02 <AnMaster> I mean funge98 got more IO
15:37:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't interest me as much from a programming point of view, because mathematically it makes no difference
15:37:08 <ais523> as you can always use something like PSOX
15:37:14 <AnMaster> *cringe*
15:37:56 <ais523> hmm, it seems like this is a good day for cross-language esolang interpretation: "Brainfuck interpreter written in [[Redivider]] by [[User:MizardX]]."
15:38:08 <AnMaster> ais523, hm?
15:38:14 <AnMaster> ah
15:38:15 <ais523> from the wiki recent changes
15:38:15 <Deewiant> came out today
15:38:18 <ais523> I haven't had a look at it
15:38:20 <Deewiant> I think
15:38:28 <ais523> Date:Friday 14 November 2008 00:58
15:38:30 <ehird> ihope will be pleased
15:38:33 <ais523> so today if you use the UTC sense
15:38:46 <ais523> ehird: ihope = warrie
15:38:50 <ehird> yes
15:38:51 <ehird> i know
15:38:56 <ehird> but i'm calling him ihope
15:39:00 <ehird> as he has various monikers that he's used here
15:39:05 <ehird> ihope, dogface, warrie, perhaps more
15:39:10 <ehird> iirc he used something else on sine, too
15:40:06 <AnMaster> hm this Redivider, what paradigm?
15:40:15 <AnMaster> I can't figure out from a quick look at the wiki page
15:40:42 <ais523> link for me to click on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider
15:40:51 <MizardX> Probably string rewriting...
15:40:57 <AnMaster> hm
15:41:13 <AnMaster> so what is all that about parsers then
15:41:49 <ais523> I don't think it's rewriting, it looks to me more like a procedural lang that uses regexen and strings as the main data type
15:41:56 <ehird> nah
15:41:59 <ehird> it's a TC parser
15:42:09 <ehird> i know because i was there when it was inventedd
15:42:10 <ais523> yes
15:42:21 <ais523> so, effectively a procedural lang, but with backtracking
15:42:33 <AnMaster> hm
15:42:56 <AnMaster> there are no examples of hello world and such either
15:42:58 <AnMaster> :/
15:42:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:43:03 -!- puzzlet has joined.
15:43:09 <ais523> going for a while (moving to a different connection); I'll be back soon
15:43:16 <MizardX> Limited back-tracking. Only if the first item in a block fails. Any other, and the program breaks.
15:43:28 <AnMaster> MizardX, what does hello world look like?
15:43:30 <AnMaster> in it
15:43:36 <MizardX> main: "Hello World!"
15:43:40 <AnMaster> heh
15:44:17 <AnMaster> MizardX, so main: have a special meaning? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider doesn't mention that
15:44:28 <ehird> hee, i was the one who made ihope make ()s optional
15:44:28 <ehird> ^_^
15:44:37 <MizardX> It doesn't say anything about how to invoke the program.
15:44:40 <ehird> and also told him what the [] vs () stuff should be like.
15:44:41 <AnMaster> ah
15:45:03 <ehird> MizardX-: main, I think
15:45:05 <ehird> name a parser main
15:45:43 <MizardX> In the parser I wrote in python, I made it so that the user have to specify what predicate to start with.
15:46:03 <ehird> just make it run main with a string being stdin, and print the result
15:46:09 <ehird> iirc that's what we decided on
15:46:57 <MizardX> ok
15:47:12 <ehird> also, post your interp! I was gonan write one once
15:47:17 <ehird> Should the language allow multiple declarations with same name, but different argument counts? (Overloading) --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:18 <ehird> ^ no
15:47:29 <ehird> What do do when trying to call a declaration while a variable shadows it's name? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:29 <ehird> ^ try to call the variable, and fail if it's not a parser
15:47:35 <ehird> How to run the "program"? E.g. select a starting predicate and an input string. --MizardX 00:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:35 <ehird> ^ i just told you this one
15:47:39 <ehird> Shouldn't <wexpr> "[" <piexpr> "]" have it's own non-terminal? --MizardX 00:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
15:47:39 <ehird> ^ probably
15:47:57 <MizardX> thanks
15:48:15 <ehird> np
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15:58:28 <MizardX> I made it so that it reads from stdin if no input file was specified. python redivider.py bf.rd helloworld.bf
15:58:46 <MizardX> Where could I upload the code?
15:59:10 <ais523> wb me
15:59:56 <MizardX> Was that directed at me? Or you welcoming yourself back? ais523
16:00:04 <ais523> it's me welcoming myself back
16:00:07 <ais523> because I'm on a bouncer
16:00:11 <ais523> people can't tell if I'm here if I don't
16:00:14 <ais523> except from ehird
16:00:21 <ehird> um
16:00:23 <ehird> yes they can
16:00:26 <ehird> /who ais523
16:00:35 <ais523> well, except by pinging now and again just in case
16:00:45 <ais523> or polling some other way
16:08:50 <MizardX> Well... until other arrangements can be made: http://snippets.dzone.com/posts/show/6506 -- Redivider interpreter written in Python
16:09:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:09:14 <ais523> MizardX: is that yours?
16:09:18 <MizardX> yes
16:09:29 -!- Ilari has joined.
16:10:08 <MizardX> Maybe should add 'by MizardX'...
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16:59:23 <AquaLoqua> Deewiant, what constitues big in terms of primes?
16:59:39 <ais523> AquaLoqua: it depends on what you need big primes for
16:59:57 <Deewiant> Well, the GIMPS guys have some pretty big primes :-P
17:00:14 <Deewiant> 13 million digits being the record, I think
17:00:20 <AquaLoqua> Well, I need them for no real reson reall. But would this be considered big/large: 3^7989-2?
17:00:32 <ais523> yes. pretty big
17:00:44 <ais523> I'd say a prime's big if writing it out by digits over IRC is a bad idea
17:01:13 <Deewiant> I'd say a prime's big if it takes over a day to factorize it
17:01:33 <AquaLoqua> Heh, well, it's only 3812 idigits long, so be GIMPS standards that's nothing
17:01:39 <ais523> Deewiant: primes are trivial to factorise, if you know in advance they're primes
17:01:51 <AquaLoqua> well, does it count if it took *me* a day to find? :P
17:01:56 <Deewiant> ais523: of course you're not supposed to know :-P
17:02:21 <ais523> also, determining if a number is prime can be done in P-time nowadays, determining its factors if it isn't can't be
17:02:32 <AquaLoqua> But how does one factorise a prime, being the product of itself and one
17:02:38 <Deewiant> Oh, it's P?
17:02:44 <Deewiant> Then scratch that
17:02:57 <ais523> quite a recent algorithm, discovered only a couple of years ago IIRC
17:03:08 -!- Mony has joined.
17:03:22 <AquaLoqua> (ais523, isn't only probabilistic? And still a conjecture of sorts?)
17:03:39 <AquaLoqua> *probabalistic :P
17:03:47 <ais523> AquaLoqua: no, I think it was a definite algorithm, it doesn't tell you the factors though if it isn't
17:03:52 <AquaLoqua> Stuff it, typo night is open
17:03:59 <Mony> hi
17:04:01 <AquaLoqua> Oh, I see
17:04:03 <AquaLoqua> Hello
17:04:24 <ais523> hi Mony
17:04:45 <AquaLoqua> Any links ais523? Hell, if it's faster than Miller-Rabin (7 iters) and it's not probab.. [that word] then I'd be better off with it
17:05:04 <ais523> Mony: http://paste.eso-std.org/k
17:05:10 <ais523> AquaLoqua: it was in New Scientist IIRC
17:05:25 <Mony> ais523 ??
17:05:38 <AquaLoqua> hrmm, I hope they have archives :P
17:05:45 <ais523> I'm trying to find the original paper
17:05:49 <ais523> Mony: Underload interp in Thue
17:06:05 <Mony> lol
17:06:22 <ais523> AquaLoqua: http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/manindra/algebra/primality_v6.pdf
17:06:27 <ais523> is the paper that described the algorithm
17:06:51 <AquaLoqua> he-hay, thanks :)
17:07:10 <ais523> the algorithm itself is on the middle of page 3
17:07:35 <AquaLoqua> Copy that, thanks (thought it was this: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17523560.500-prime-number-puzzle-solved-at-last.html - but seeing as I don't subscribe I can't tell)
17:09:08 <Ilari> The algorithm (AKS primality test) is fully determistic polynomial time algorithm. But the exponents and constants involved are pretty bad (at least unless GRH is true)...
17:09:22 <ais523> Ilari: GRH?
17:09:46 <AquaLoqua> Hrmm, so is it practical then?
17:10:15 <Ilari> General Rieman Hypothesis... Note that there later refiniments of the algorithm are asymptotically faster...
17:11:09 <Ilari> IIRC, latest versions are O(beta^6)...
17:12:16 <AquaLoqua> Well, either way, it's a whole let better than the exponential growth for remainder tests
17:12:55 <Ilari> For crypto-grade prime numbers, Miller-Rabin is pretty much the only way to go...
17:12:59 <AquaLoqua> (Which I don't use though, way too slow in comparison to non-deterministic methods that yield acceptable results)
17:13:16 <AquaLoqua> Yeah, that's what I'm using :P But I find I have to validate the larger results
17:13:50 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Just run enough iterations?
17:13:53 <AquaLoqua> raed somewhere that beyond 7 or so iters. Miller-Rabin has no visible difference in accuracy for numbers with less than 3000 digits
17:14:45 <AquaLoqua> So, I'm not so keen on idly running cycles.. But, it may be worth it as this last one broke the 3000 mark
17:15:50 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: For 7 iters, the probability for false positive is 0.006%...
17:16:04 <Ilari> s/0.006%/<0.006%/
17:16:28 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p441626313.txt <<< currently compiling this to subleg and running, it does +++>++.<.
17:16:43 <ais523> subleg?
17:16:48 <ais523> is that a subleq deriviative
17:16:54 <oklopol> wanted to finish it before saying anything, but as i'm leaving now, i better tell you so i have some incentive to finish it.
17:17:06 <oklopol> err that's just what i hacked up to make it easier to code in subleg.
17:17:06 <AquaLoqua> Heh, I see. Well, I didn't know that one, hrmm, well then I guess it's mroe than enough for the numbers I'm likely to ever reach (having taking a day or so to find 3^7989-2
17:17:43 <oklopol> . means next instruction, #number means the memory slot with offset "number" from current instruction
17:17:50 <oklopol> label:value names a cell
17:17:54 <oklopol> ?label looks up a cell
17:18:04 <oklopol> these are trivial to compile
17:18:20 <ais523> again, subleg?
17:18:29 <oklopol> *subleq
17:18:31 <ais523> ah, ok
17:18:32 <oklopol> sorry.
17:18:55 <oklopol> will do [ and ] tonight, after which it's trivial to do bf -> subleq.
17:19:14 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Real prime number finding algorithms probably first do some trial divisions (because you can test a lot of divisiors faster than doing one round of MR, and such tests eliminate a lot of composites).
17:19:34 <ais523> this is getting really good for the compile-everything-into-everything-else project
17:19:38 <oklopol> just wanted to compile something to something because that seems to be the hot stuff today.
17:19:49 <ais523> as bf compiles into lots of things, I just need an Underlambda to BF compiler to simplify half the work
17:19:52 <oklopol> also god i love esolanging
17:20:04 <ais523> and that should be simple enough, given that an Underload interp exists in BF which loads all its input in advance
17:20:14 <ais523> (thus you could simply hardcode the input to get a compiler, bundle-an-interp style)
17:20:51 <oklopol> so we'd get underload -> subleq
17:21:00 <ais523> yes
17:21:03 <ais523> and underlambda -> subleq
17:21:07 <ais523> via my underlambda -> underlambda compiler
17:21:16 <oklopol> someone should make a program that had all the compilers, and found the shortest paths between compilations for two given languages.
17:21:19 <oklopol> and then did the compilation
17:21:25 <oklopol> given code and the language names
17:21:26 <AquaLoqua> Heh, yeah, again, I do that. Trial div by all primes less than 100 000. It's fast, sotred as a constant array and so it does end up cathcing most candidates out rather fast. I gues I should really add odd/even filtering, but I'm not sure if a power of three minus two can be odd (you're probably about to dig up a trivial example of that Ilari). Then again, code denisty vs overall efficiancy
17:21:37 <ais523> anyway, I think Underlambda Special is sufficiently easy to implement that normally it wouldn't need compiling to Underlambda Core first
17:21:40 <oklopol> that's trivial, but might be neat.
17:21:54 <ais523> but the option's there just in case
17:22:27 <oklopol> also you could kinda tell it how fast compilers are and it could use that as heuristics (== edge costs) when searching for the compilation sequence.
17:22:34 <Ilari> AquaLoqua: Power of 3 must be odd, because 2 can't divide it since 2 and 3 are both primes. So 3^n-2 is odd.
17:22:43 <ais523> oklopol: sounds like a great followup project
17:23:07 <oklopol> ais523: yes, but that won't take me much more than 30 minutes
17:23:13 <ais523> even better
17:23:18 <ais523> but I mean, working on optimising the compilers
17:23:23 <ais523> and creating more links
17:23:31 <ais523> e.g. a direct compilation is better than bundle-an-interp, usually
17:23:31 <oklopol> it's just dijkstra + some abstraction + some file stuff
17:23:40 <oklopol> abstraction for getting the graph
17:23:48 <oklopol> yeah
17:24:13 <oklopol> we're going to change the world.
17:24:16 <oklopol> :P
17:24:24 <AquaLoqua> yay, then my gamble paid off. Heh, Ilari you are but the bearer of good news (had I gone Mersenne Primes though, it would've been different - then again there would've the Lucas-Lehmer I could've used, but why bother, there's already a GIMPS)
17:24:53 <oklopol> but, i need to go listen to music and drink alcohol, if i still remember how to do that.
17:24:54 <ais523> http://paste.eso-std.org/l <--- the output of my Underlambda -> Underload compiler for a very simple program
17:25:25 <ais523> the program was (x)(y)(z)((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I
17:25:27 <ais523> originally
17:25:51 <ais523> but that's what it ends up like when all the machinery to support the I command is added
17:26:14 <oklopol> hmm. actually the compiler could be a bit more complicated, like try multiple compilation paths and find the shortest code produced.
17:26:17 <ais523> so not very efficient
17:26:34 <oklopol> could use A* and have the heuristic given for each compiler to choose the order in which to try.
17:26:38 <oklopol> and be given a timeout
17:26:49 <ais523> has anyone started to read my paste above, btw?
17:27:04 <ais523> that's why I want people to implement Underlambda Special, not Underlambda Core (which is a subset of Underload apart from I/O)
17:27:20 <Asztal> I did, but then I decided that it's clearly not designed for making the compiled programs readable :P
17:27:20 <oklopol> hmm
17:27:23 <oklopol> what's the I command
17:27:26 <ais523> oklopol: infra
17:27:28 <ais523> from Joy
17:27:42 <oklopol> i don't know joy
17:27:46 <ais523> it's sort of like chroot
17:27:47 <oklopol> i'm a very boring guy
17:27:49 <ais523> it takes the top stack element
17:27:52 <ais523> and converts it to a stack
17:27:57 <ais523> and uses that stack temporarily
17:28:03 <oklopol> :o
17:28:04 <ais523> then once the command's finished, it goes back to the original stack
17:28:17 <ais523> so ((X)(Y)(Z))(!)I is equivalent to ((X)(Y))
17:28:32 <ais523> as the Z gets popped
17:28:57 <oklopol> hmm.
17:29:07 <oklopol> so
17:29:11 <oklopol> takes the top stack element
17:29:13 <oklopol> (!)?
17:29:21 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.
17:29:25 <ais523> infra takes a program and a stack as its args
17:29:30 <oklopol> yeah okay.
17:29:30 <ais523> so the stack is ((X)(Y)(Z))
17:29:33 <ais523> and the program is (!)
17:29:45 <ais523> ((X)(Y)(Z)!) is ((X)(Y))
17:29:53 <oklopol> what's the use? i don't have time to think
17:30:02 <ais523> not a lot in basic Underload
17:30:09 <ais523> as you could just have used * instead
17:30:18 <ais523> but it's good for getting the length of a list, for instance
17:30:27 <oklopol> ah
17:30:27 <ais523> by seeing how many elements are in the resulting stack
17:30:30 <ais523> also things like sandboxing
17:30:33 <oklopol> "n"
17:30:40 <oklopol> works nicely with that, methinks
17:30:42 <ais523> yes
17:30:45 <ais523> it's implemented using it
17:31:39 <oklopol> what happens when you run outta stack?
17:31:50 <oklopol> is that where you see the difference between that and *^?
17:31:50 <ais523> it prints e% and then starts acting randomly
17:31:54 <oklopol> oh.
17:32:06 <ais523> but the compiler would be easy to modify
17:32:10 <oklopol> well then i don't see what the difference between that and *^ is
17:32:11 <ais523> to do proper stack checks
17:32:15 <ais523> hmm... even exceptions, for that matter
17:32:28 <ais523> it's not a program that uses the power of I
17:32:33 <ais523> just a proof-of-concept
17:32:52 <ais523> for instance, say you want to take the head of a list
17:32:54 <oklopol> hmm.
17:33:03 <ais523> that's ((A!)_)I
17:33:05 <ais523> where _ is dip
17:33:08 <ais523> and A! clears the stack
17:34:48 <ais523> not easy to do at all without infra
17:35:11 <ais523> (A is the ultra command btw, it's sort of the opposite of infra, it wraps the entire stack in () as opposed to a which just wraps the top element in ())
17:36:46 <oklopol> umm, what's dip? :P
17:36:52 <oklopol> my stack terminology is a bit rusty.
17:37:01 <ais523> oklopol: temporarily remove the top element of the stack, run the command, and put it back again
17:37:06 <ais523> ~a*^ in Underload
17:37:13 <Asztal> not a typo for dup then :)
17:37:23 <ais523> e.g. (a)(b)(c)(~)_ is equivalent to (b)(a)(c)
17:37:41 <oklopol> umm.
17:37:49 <oklopol> why isn't it just :^ in underload?
17:38:00 <ais523> :^ runs something with itself as an argument
17:38:11 <ais523> (a)(b)(c)(~):^ is quite different to (a)(b)(c)~a*^
17:38:11 <oklopol> ohhhhh
17:38:19 * oklopol gets it.
17:39:18 <oklopol> i just realized i'm not in any kind of hurry yet
17:39:27 <oklopol> i'll try to quickly implement [ and ]
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17:54:23 <oklopol> lol, ended up debuggin my dec :P
17:55:40 <oklopol> inc/dec are three instructions, fetch mempointer, use that mempointer to inc/dec using a constant one or negative one, then normalize the middle instruction
17:56:00 <oklopol> because the memory access is done by setting it's output parameter to mempointer
17:56:07 <oklopol> quite an obvious construction
17:56:13 <oklopol> but
17:56:29 <oklopol> i had the code for inc, and changed it to sub without thinking too much
17:57:00 <oklopol> i actually set the middle instruction's destination register to -memorypointer, and incremented it, instead of setting it to memorypointer and decrementing it
17:57:17 <oklopol> perhaps i should make my debug output show the code, not the assembly instructions
17:57:20 <oklopol> oh, well
17:57:24 <oklopol> now i do need to leave.
17:57:25 <oklopol> ->
17:58:20 <oklopol> lol i don't xD
18:01:30 <ais523> oklopol: wb, then
18:02:20 <oklopol> the while loop is less trivial than i thought, at least if i want it to be as short as possible.
18:02:38 <oklopol> i initially assumed i'd just write it without thinking
18:08:18 <oklopol> at least nontrivial the way i'm doing all memory action
18:08:31 <oklopol> that is, rewriting parts of instructions to refer to memory cells
18:08:38 <oklopol> the problem is, i need to erase that info
18:08:55 <oklopol> for which i either need a loop or i need to know what i added to the value.
18:09:05 <ais523> could you erase them immediately after each instruction is run?
18:09:07 <oklopol> and if i do some sorta jump, it's not that easy to know what was removed
18:09:11 <ais523> as in, have the instructions self-resetting?
18:09:33 <oklopol> umm.
18:09:36 <oklopol> actually
18:09:41 <oklopol> the real problem here
18:09:47 <oklopol> is that i'm an idiot.
18:10:03 <oklopol> i can just subtract the register from itself xD
18:10:12 <oklopol> seriously, that never occurred to me
18:10:14 <oklopol> :DD
18:24:19 <oklopol> okay i have a do while
18:24:49 <ais523> oklopol: just goto the end of it and you have a while
18:25:50 <oklopol> yes
18:26:37 <oklopol> that was misleading, that was very helpful, i was going to make a separate ==0 logic.
18:27:02 <oklopol> although i probably would've realized that's stupid at some point.
18:28:08 <oklopol> okay, i've basically done bf now.
18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I won't it to be challenging... puzzle-like..
18:47:25 <oklopol> i won't either.
18:48:00 <ais523> oklopol: ah, a topic reference?
18:48:05 <ais523> bf -> subleq is nice, anyway
18:48:10 <ais523> bf -> lots of things is nice
18:48:24 <ais523> as Underlambda -> bf should be relatively easy
18:50:12 <oklopol> i'm naming this language subleg, because it's almost subleq, and because i always typo it to subleg anyway.
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18:56:42 <psygnisfive> oklopol
18:56:47 <psygnisfive> i read a bit of what you were talking about
18:56:49 <oklopol> hmm. something's not working
18:56:53 <psygnisfive> im not sure if i get it
18:57:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it was about the finnish word "joka", a relative pronoun
18:57:40 <oklopol> refers to whatever is directly on the left of it, in the usual case
18:57:51 <oklopol> we argued about whether you can change the referent using another pronoun.
18:58:01 <psygnisfive> ok?
18:58:11 <oklopol> because why would finns agree on something like that, it's a craaaaaazy language
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18:58:22 <ais523> hi oerjan
18:58:29 <psygnisfive> so oklopol
18:58:32 <oerjan> evening
18:58:38 <ais523> lots of esodevelopments today
18:58:47 <psygnisfive> im doing this generative syntax thing
18:59:01 <psygnisfive> where you give the program a set of semantic predicates and it builds a sentence out of them
19:00:06 <ais523> oerjan: we now have almost a BF -> Subleq compiler (oklopol), a BF -> Redivider compiler (MizardX) and an Underload interp in Thue (ais523)
19:01:05 <ais523> not bad for a day's work
19:01:09 <oerjan> ic
19:01:46 <ais523> my interp is very slow, it took 11 seconds to run the stock Hello World program IIRC
19:01:47 <oerjan> still, all of those would have been more impressive in the opposite direction
19:02:03 <ais523> Subleq -> BF shouldn't be too hard
19:06:48 <oklopol> run(bftosubleg("++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.+..-."),False,[])
19:06:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:06:54 <oklopol> >>>
19:06:54 <oklopol> A B B A
19:07:07 <ais523> still called subleg?
19:07:56 <oklopol> yes yes, SUBLEq with Great extra syntax
19:08:01 <oklopol> ...
19:08:04 <oklopol> or something like that
19:08:43 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p432311255.txt this is the generated program
19:08:44 <oerjan> MizardX: hm from ais523's interpreter i take it paste.eso-std.org takes pretty big pastes. since you asked where to put things yesterday.
19:09:07 <ais523> oerjan: what do you think by the way? it's mostly generated code, after all
19:09:13 <ais523> and I think paste.eso-std.org takes unlimited pastes
19:09:57 <MizardX> Ok, I'll copy it there.
19:10:26 <oerjan> you'll have to ask him how permanent it is i guess...
19:10:58 <ais523> by grace of ehird, I suspect
19:11:10 <ehird> hm?
19:11:14 <ehird> entirely permannet
19:11:16 <ehird> *permanent
19:11:20 <oerjan> ais523: what about, OMFG IT'S HUGE
19:11:55 <ehird> unless i become physically or mentally unable to maintain eso-std.org, there is data loss, or I die and nobody takes it over, paste.eso-std.org links should stay up.
19:11:56 <oerjan> and unreadable, too
19:12:02 <ehird> (or everyone stops using HTTP)
19:12:46 <MizardX> There, http://paste.eso-std.org/q
19:12:47 <ais523> oerjan: it's mostly generated code
19:13:08 <ais523> due to the large variety of characters that could occur in an Underload program
19:13:13 <ais523> I have some ideas as to how to optimise it, though
19:13:21 <ais523> representing characters in binary, rather than literally
19:13:29 <ais523> or even better, Huffman codes
19:13:56 <oerjan> ah thue has no way of doing wildcards i guess
19:14:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p622341536.txt <<< if anyone is interested in the code
19:14:13 <oklopol> that's one of the cleanest pieces of code i've ever written
19:14:32 <oklopol> (i'm not saying it's readable though.)
19:15:04 <oklopol> well, actually i'm not compiling subleg into subleq
19:15:18 <oklopol> i modified it a bit, because i felt like it.
19:15:19 <ais523> I am interested but probably I'll read it later
19:15:29 <ais523> we need a Python -> esolang compiler
19:15:33 <oklopol> basically, if you subtract from -1, the value subtracted is printed
19:15:39 <ais523> so we can use all the esolang interps written in Python
19:15:48 <oklopol> if you jump to -1, the execution ends
19:16:03 <ehird> MizardX-:
19:16:03 <ehird> """ % {'file':__file__}
19:16:05 <ehird> try sys.argv[0]
19:16:13 <oklopol> i don't have input in the bf compiler yet, but if you subtract -1 from something, you're actually subtracting user input
19:16:22 <oklopol> that's it really
19:16:54 <oklopol> i can write a small spec for subleg if anyone is interested, although it's not exactly that interesting.
19:17:19 <oklopol> actually that whole thing isn't all that interesting, it was quite trivial to make
19:17:38 <oklopol> just a lot of work, mainly because i'm too stubborn to make debugging easy for myself :P
19:18:15 <oklopol> but yeah oerjan is right, the other way would be more impressibe
19:18:17 <oklopol> *impressive
19:18:30 <oklopol> unfortunately that is... incredibly hard.
19:19:17 <MizardX> ehird: They are the same, and __file__ would work even if the interpeter is called from another module. (Why you would do that I don't know)
19:19:37 <ehird> MizardX: they are not the same:
19:19:48 <ehird> import foobar; foobar.main(sys.argv)
19:19:59 <ehird> e.g. setuptools essentially does that, but with 5000 levels of indirection
19:20:09 <ehird> __file__ is the code file that it's contained in, sys.argv[0] is the program that was run
19:21:58 <ais523> oklopol: it would probably be relatively easy based on what I've done for gcc-bf already
19:22:44 <MizardX> ehird: I wouldn't know if the file in sys.argv[0] supports the arguments passed. I do know that the file in __file__ does.
19:22:55 <ehird> True. Still.
19:23:42 <MizardX> I could move the syntax-message to the "if __name__ == '__main__'" block instead...
19:24:07 <oklopol> ais523: well it's just the pointer stuff that's hard in both those.
19:24:17 <ais523> oklopol: I have code to handle pointers already, I think
19:24:21 <ais523> but it's very inefficient
19:24:31 <ais523> is subleq TC, by the way?
19:24:32 <oklopol> that's part one
19:24:36 <ais523> or does it have limited memory?
19:24:36 <ehird> ais523: yes
19:24:38 <ehird> uh
19:24:39 <ehird> dunno
19:24:39 <oklopol> then just add bignums.
19:24:43 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/subleq
19:24:48 <oklopol> hmm,
19:24:56 <oklopol> my implementation has bignums, i assumed it always does
19:24:59 <oklopol> but it's tc without them
19:25:02 <oklopol> err
19:25:05 <oklopol> asmtc
19:25:12 <oklopol> actually
19:25:28 <oklopol> yeah, can't be tc withouth bignums ofc
19:25:30 <ais523> yes, tc with bignums
19:25:41 <ais523> I was wondering if it used relative pointers or something
19:25:47 <oklopol> no
19:25:49 <oklopol> doesn't
19:25:53 <ais523> ok, probably not all that easy to compile into a non-bignum version of TC
19:25:59 <ais523> but my BF -> Underload compiler uses bignums
19:26:07 <ais523> (although it doesn't handle input)
19:26:20 <oklopol> what does bf->ul help?
19:26:37 <ais523> nothing obviously
19:26:40 <ais523> it's just a nice link to have
19:26:47 <ais523> if you're compiling subleq into underload, for instance
19:26:54 <ais523> you could compile subleq -> bignum bf -> underload
19:28:53 <oklopol> that i did bf->subleq and not the other way around was due to a random choice.
19:29:09 <oklopol> i just took the first two language names that popped to mind
19:29:12 <ais523> ah, ok
19:29:17 <ais523> I was going to ask why subleq in particular
19:29:20 <oklopol> turned out to happen to be a trivial compilation.
19:29:23 <ais523> hmm... someone should update http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters
19:30:25 <oklopol> god i love making interpreters and compiling languages to another
19:30:54 <ais523> yes, so do I
19:31:05 <ais523> although ideally the compiler should itself be in an esolang
19:31:14 <ais523> how hard would it be to translate your compiler to something high-level like INTERCAL?
19:31:31 <oklopol> i don't know, i don't know intercal.
19:31:35 <oklopol> but that would be a great way to learn
19:33:59 <fizzie> I've got that befunge-underload at least, which is not mentioned in that table. Although it was a trivial thing too.
19:34:24 <oklopol> okay, time to go get drunk with a few friends.
19:34:26 <ais523> fizzie: hmm... I'll have to get you to adapt it to befunge-underlambda when I finish speccing underlabmda
19:34:26 <oklopol> wish me luck :\
19:34:32 <ais523> good luck
19:36:56 * oklopol leaves
19:36:59 <oklopol> ->
19:37:02 <fizzie> I wonder if underload.b98 counts; it's Funge-98 (thanks to use of STRN), strictly speaking not Befunge.
19:37:17 <ais523> well, it's a different lang
19:37:23 <ais523> but Funge-98 is definitely an esolang
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20:27:48 <AnMaster> hm
20:33:06 <oerjan> +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~a*~:^):^
20:33:07 <thutubot> hm
20:33:11 <oerjan> oops
20:34:00 <oerjan> +ul ((h)(m)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
20:34:01 <thutubot> hmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmhhmmhmhhmhmmhmhhmmhhmhmmh ...too much output!
20:34:18 <ais523> ?
20:34:41 <oerjan> !
20:35:05 <oerjan> +ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
20:35:07 <thutubot> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110 ...too much output!
20:35:19 <ais523> oklopol: I'm wondering why you're running that particular program
20:35:21 <ais523> *oerjan:
20:35:35 <oerjan> just for fun
20:35:59 <oerjan> also, it's a well-known sequence
20:37:14 <ais523> oh, thue-morse
20:39:13 <ais523> is that Keymaker's Thue-Morse in Underload?
20:39:59 <oerjan> if so, purely by coincidence :D
20:40:36 <ais523> Keymaker definitely wrote one, I'm wondering if it's the same one or if you reimplemented it yourself
20:40:53 <oerjan> reimplemented, afaik
20:41:11 <ais523> +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~S!!~:^):^
20:41:14 <thutubot> :^ ...out of time!
20:41:15 <ais523> that one's Keymaker's
20:41:25 <ais523> hmm... must have mispasted
20:41:51 <ais523> +ul (:^)(~()~((1)Sa~a*~(~:^:^)*~^)~((0)Sa~a*~(:^~:^)*~^~)~^(/)S!!~:^):^
20:41:53 <thutubot> 0/01/0110/01101001/0110100110010110/01101001100101101001011001101001/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110/0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100 ...too much output!
20:42:01 <oerjan> i was slightly inspired by a fibonacci i saw, i think (putting the initial pair in a list)
20:42:06 <ais523> I missed that it had a literal newline in a string, I changed it to /
20:43:01 <Slereah_> BEEP BOOP
20:43:11 <oerjan> that looks like a sequence of increasing parts of the thue-morse sequence
20:44:59 <ais523> yes
20:45:47 <oerjan> oh it's just on the talk page
20:46:38 <oerjan> um, a link from there
20:47:16 <ais523> oerjan: http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/
20:47:42 <ais523> +ul (*/*/*/)S(*)::(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a:*~*^*:(/)*Sa~a*~a*^a~a~*~a*~a*^:^):^
20:47:43 <thutubot> */*/*/**/**/***/****/*****/*******/*********/************/****************/*********************/****************************/*************************************/ ...too much output!
20:47:45 <oerjan> that one fails to load
20:47:53 <ais523> really? it works for me
20:48:02 <ais523> it's a directory listing of Keymaker's underload programs
20:48:25 <oerjan> oh wait
20:52:08 * oerjan adds that link to the article proper
20:53:21 <oerjan> what in the world are the numbers in that sequence?
20:54:52 <ais523> oerjan: it's the Padovan sequence
20:54:56 <ais523> not sure what that is
20:55:02 <ais523> I'm going to give a random link to Wikipedia, then click on it
20:55:05 <ais523> [[w:Padovan sequence]]
20:55:08 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Padovan_sequence
20:55:26 <oerjan> FAIL
20:55:37 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padovan_sequence
20:55:45 <ehird> oerjan: not fail
20:55:46 <ais523> blame Konversation not me
20:55:51 <ehird> that's a reasonable thing to do
20:55:56 <ais523> my link does go to the right place, after all...
20:56:04 <oerjan> well...
20:56:28 <ais523> it's like a dipped version of Fibonnacci, it seems
20:56:59 <ais523> there's also the Perrin sequence, which is defined the same way except it starts 3 0 2
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22:16:34 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes ick, gcc-bf, feather and so on?
22:17:26 * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls
22:17:39 <ais523> AnMaster: actually I've been working on Underlambda
22:18:15 <AnMaster> ah
22:18:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yeah
22:23:28 <ehird> * oerjan looks at ais523 juggling a huge number of balls
22:23:30 <ehird> get your own channel.
22:23:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I also wrote an Underload interp in Thue, I think I told you that already though
22:24:35 <oerjan> ehird: huh?
22:24:49 <ehird> oerjan: I was making a HILARIOUS INNUENDO
22:25:10 <fizzie> Like juggling esoteric balls in variable gravity.
22:25:20 <oerjan> ah a pun
22:25:26 <oerjan> YOU ALL KNOW I HATE PUNS
22:25:27 <ais523> ehird: it was a very bad innuendo
22:25:40 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not certain I believe you on that...
22:25:40 <ehird> ais523: Shut up, ball-juggler.
22:25:51 <ais523> and Thutubot agrees with me, just has no way of indicating that
22:26:02 <fizzie> fungot: Do you agree? Y/N?
22:26:02 <fungot> fizzie: i don't rename variables, i would like to
22:26:57 <ehird> optbot?
22:26:57 <optbot> ehird: The only time when you would explicitly wait for a box to be filled is when you branched based on its value.
22:27:00 <ehird> optbot!
22:27:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but; moreso.
22:27:27 <fizzie> ^bool
22:27:27 <fungot> Yes.
22:27:32 <oerjan> ^fool
22:27:48 <fungot> No.
22:28:12 <oerjan> oh well then
22:28:24 <oerjan> ^cool
22:28:24 <AnMaster> ^fool
22:28:30 <AnMaster> wtf?
22:28:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, you made it say that
22:28:42 <fizzie> Well, sure.
22:28:52 <fizzie> I thought it fitting.
22:28:55 <fizzie> fungot's no fool.
22:28:55 <fungot> fizzie: what was the 4d about? srfi 15?
22:29:25 <oerjan> scheme is such a srfing language
22:29:39 <fizzie> Surfing?
22:29:49 <Slereah_> It's totally rad dude
22:29:51 <AnMaster> fungot, 4d2
22:29:52 <fizzie> Smurfing, maybe.
22:29:52 <fungot> AnMaster: i'm just going to say, you probably want is pair-for-each from srfi 1?) would justify the fnord!
22:29:59 <AnMaster> hm
22:30:14 <oerjan> fizzie: just because i'm such a masochist, i made a pun
22:31:25 <oerjan> ^style
22:31:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
22:31:35 <oerjan> ^style pa
22:31:36 <fungot> Selected style: pa
22:31:42 <oerjan> fungot: what's that about?
22:31:43 <fungot> oerjan: no, it's him. you hit him. instead, press button and wait for the authorities to arrive. maybe you could tell me why your game is a kart racer? yeah. that shouldn't be a problem.
22:32:28 <oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf
22:32:28 <fungot> oerjan: tomselleck_666: what are you two fairies up to? ( yes is ticked). we'll only need it for the day." so i ask him what their pings are. they're all over the place.
22:32:54 <oerjan> hm it's some other irc channel?
22:33:35 <oerjan> ^style fisher
22:33:36 <fungot> Selected style: fisher
22:33:43 <oerjan> fungot: how is that fishy
22:33:44 <fungot> oerjan: ye- yeah it's interesting ah so we're supposed to talk
22:34:12 <oerjan> fungot: is it that conversation thing?
22:34:12 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( well see i dialed
22:34:21 <fizzie> "pa" is Penny Arcade comics.
22:34:28 <AnMaster> night
22:34:31 <fizzie> And Fisher is the telephoen conversation corpus.
22:34:39 <oerjan> ^style ic
22:34:39 <fungot> Selected style: ic
22:34:46 <oerjan> fungot: no i don't
22:34:51 <oerjan> oops
22:35:00 <ais523> fungot?
22:35:01 <fungot> ais523: it is and doesn't give a computed `next' stack is the c-intercal version 0.26 ( both the intercal program, but may not appear to have the right software, it's very important to make more memory available to intercal exist, all commands of any of the resulting threads backtrack; this is most likely, this means that you have the correct emulation mode for the full text of the mechanisms available for free for other syntax
22:35:10 <Mony> 'night
22:35:13 <ais523> night Mony
22:35:23 <Mony> thx :)
22:35:26 -!- Mony has quit ("Join the Damnation now !").
22:35:42 <oerjan> um it's esoteric but not the same as irc?
22:35:44 <AnMaster> hm
22:35:45 <AnMaster> ic?
22:35:50 <AnMaster> fungot, hi
22:35:50 <fungot> AnMaster: 7.3 next, forget and resume to that of the result), and the least significant bit is the same name. it's written like an ordinary `abstain' and `reinstate' that point on a whim did an ubuntu package search for ' intercal' and `.2/.1' together cause `.1' to `gcc' is
22:35:56 <ais523> oerjan: it's from the INTERCAL revamped manual, IIRC
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ah
22:36:00 <AnMaster> lol
22:36:05 <oerjan> oh
22:36:11 <AnMaster> ^style
22:36:11 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
22:36:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea show the current one too?
22:36:25 <AnMaster> idea:*
22:36:50 <AnMaster> night!
22:38:37 <oerjan> ^style ss
22:38:38 <fungot> Selected style: ss
22:38:42 <oerjan> fungot: and so
22:38:42 <fungot> oerjan: ang. neere byrnan wood shall we well meet them, and they, stand in assured loss. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
22:38:53 <oerjan> ah
22:39:36 <GregorR> Hmmmmmm ... does something have to be a plant to be a vegetable?
22:39:45 <ais523> GregorR: I think so
22:39:56 <oerjan> hm what about fungi
22:39:59 <GregorR> Are mushrooms vegetables? Is fried algae a vegetable?
22:40:42 <Slereah_> Mushrooms aren't even plants.
22:40:45 <ais523> algae are plants, normally, though, aren't they
22:40:51 <ais523> apart from cyanobacteria which aren't algae really
22:41:15 <oerjan> i think divisions get fishy at that level
22:41:28 <oerjan> (although fishes are not plants)
22:41:57 <oerjan> wp claims green algae are plants
22:42:18 <oerjan> "Most algae are no longer classified within the Kingdom Plantae"
22:43:20 <GregorR> And yet, I would call red algae (a delicacy amongst no one) a vegetable
22:45:08 * oerjan isn't sure whether that means it is or isn't a delicacy
22:45:26 <ais523> to nobody, it's a delicacy
22:45:34 <ais523> that means that it's really really rare for it to be a delicacy
22:45:39 <ais523> therefore, in the abstract, it's a delicacy
22:45:40 <oerjan> ic
22:45:46 <ais523> just it isn't a delicacy to anyone in particular
22:45:50 <oerjan> i'm sure some fish disagree
22:46:14 <GregorR> WP says people eat Cyanobacteria
22:46:22 <GregorR> And that's most CERTAINLY not a plant.
22:46:29 <GregorR> But is it a vegetable?
22:46:34 <fizzie> I think it's more interesting if you have to guess. (In any case the current style isn't actually stored anywhere, just the corresponding file names. Though it would just mean extracting stuff after the last '.'.
22:48:47 <ehird> fungot: poop
22:48:48 <fungot> ehird: bianca. and may through all the worlds new fashion planted, that hath so much ouerborne her, that she which marries you, must in your allowance o'reway a whole theater of others. god keep me from their worse then killing lust, and wak'd halfe dead with nothing. worthy martius, had we no other quarrel else to rome, and when you are gentle, you shall not
22:49:35 <oerjan> o la paloma bianca
22:51:26 <oerjan> darn it's blanca
22:55:35 <oerjan> " Mushrooms belong to the biological kingdom Fungi, not the plant kingdom, and yet they are also generally considered to be vegetables, at least in the retail industry"
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23:04:42 <fizzie> ^reload
23:04:42 <fungot> Reloaded.
23:04:48 <fizzie> Couldn't resist one improvement.
23:04:53 <fizzie> ^style irc
23:04:53 <fungot> Selected style: ircR(IRCglogs ofefreenode/#esoteric,efreenode/#schemedandcircnet/#douglasadams)
23:04:59 <fizzie> Uh...
23:05:04 <ais523> ^style ic
23:05:04 <fungot> Selected style: icI(INTERCALamanual)
23:05:09 <ais523> ^style
23:05:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
23:05:12 <ais523> ^style wp
23:05:13 <fungot> Selected style: wp1(1/256thfoflalliWikipediaT"Talk:"anamespaceapages)
23:05:25 <fizzie> They've all got descriptions, but the list wasn't cleared properly.
23:05:27 <ais523> fizzie: it's almost right except the text in the parens is garbled
23:05:32 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:05:37 <ais523> I like it
23:05:41 <ais523> it's like typical fungot babble
23:05:43 <ais523> on a smaller scale
23:05:55 <fizzie> It's just that the spaces were filled with some other older stuff.
23:06:16 -!- fungot has joined.
23:06:25 <fizzie> ^style ic
23:06:25 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
23:06:36 <fizzie> Thre, now it's boring again.
23:07:31 <fizzie> Just used ^code + 'i' to load the updated list (with descriptions) and forgot that it won't clear those parts that had spaces in them.
23:07:33 <ehird> ^style alice
23:07:34 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
23:07:37 <ehird> Oh.
23:07:44 <ehird> fizzie: add ELIZA dialog
23:07:52 <fizzie> At some point, sure.
23:08:11 <fizzie> ^style darwin
23:08:11 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
23:08:34 <fizzie> I think darwin still has that problem with smileys, though.
23:09:09 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you think Darwin's writings would've been a lot better if he had just used a bit less of the ":)" sign?
23:09:09 <fungot> fizzie: leersia oryzoides. pollen-grains :). odorata. palustris. roxburghiana. ruppii. sylvatica. tricolor.
23:09:40 <fizzie> I'm surprised anyone took him seriously like that.
23:10:22 <Slereah_> optbot, make a better topic of conversation
23:10:23 <optbot> Slereah_: not being nested
23:10:35 <Slereah_> What is your opinion on not being nested, people?
23:10:52 <fizzie> It's a sad state of affairs, not being nested.
23:10:57 <fizzie> Everyone should have a nest.
23:11:28 <Slereah_> Do you know of the INTERNEST
23:11:40 <oerjan> but twigs are so rough to sleep on!
23:11:41 <fizzie> Is that like the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHNEST?
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23:12:56 <Slereah_> World Wide Webeverse
23:13:19 <ehird> fizzie: did he actually say :)
23:13:20 <ehird> XD
23:13:41 <fizzie> No, it's just a bug my scripts used to have.
23:13:54 <Slereah_> I should finish the functions for Mulambda
23:14:17 <fizzie> Currently it maps the words "a" and "the" into ":)" and "/".
23:14:25 <ehird> fizzie: haha, what
23:15:24 <fizzie> The script I used filtered unused tokens away, and darwin didn't use all my punctuation (":)" and ":(", most likely) so the last two token numbers that used to be punctuation in the IRC logs were given to the two most common words, "a" and "the".
23:15:40 <fizzie> But fungot's Funge-coded tokens-to-text part has the punctuation stuff hardcoded, so...
23:15:40 <fungot> fizzie: on september 14, 1862 page 721.) that/ main part :) his letter dated march 10th, 1871.
23:16:18 <fizzie> The current version of the data-eating script doesn't have that bug any longer, I just haven't rebuilt those .darwin data files.
23:17:09 <Slereah_> OM NOM NOM
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23:23:05 <Slereah_> Sometimes, I think it would be easier to write mulambda in Lazy Bird D:
23:23:15 <Slereah_> At least there's a functional thing!
23:23:18 <Slereah_> Unlike that fraud Scheme
23:24:39 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what sort of "functional language" features Scheme would be missing; and as far as syntax is concerned, it's got quite nice macros.
23:25:11 <Slereah_> Well, it's not missing.
23:25:19 <Slereah_> Just annoying for what I'm looking for
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