←2009-01-24 2009-01-25 2009-01-26→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:08 <oklopol> you can't reach the level i'm talking about. the absolute bottom of informational computationality.
00:00:22 <oklopol> so.
00:00:29 <ehird> i think the fundamental imperative computational is something like:
00:00:39 <oklopol> in other words i think i should sleep
00:00:48 <ehird> Perform an operation on two values and put the result somewhere, then go somewhere else depending on the result.
00:01:07 <ehird> so let's say
00:01:12 <ehird> sjz A B C
00:01:16 <ehird> A and B are memory addresses
00:01:23 <oklopol> "go" "put" "perform"
00:01:26 <ehird> subtracts the value in A and the value in B
00:01:34 <ehird> and puts the result in B
00:01:38 <ehird> then, if the result is zero
00:01:40 <ehird> it jumps to C
00:01:44 <ehird> otherwise, execution continues as normal
00:02:00 <ehird> good?
00:02:19 <ehird> equality comparison:
00:02:21 <oklopol> that's so compicated i can't understand it, let alone read or see it.
00:02:25 <ehird> sjz A B notequal
00:02:26 <oklopol> *complicated
00:02:28 <ehird> [its equal]
00:02:30 <ehird> notequal:
00:02:32 <ehird> [its not equal]
00:02:36 <kerlo> Notwithstanding, there is no Turing-complete language simpler than BCT.
00:02:42 <ehird> maybe.
00:02:47 <ehird> but i"m talking about instruction sets
00:02:49 <ehird> imperative unz
00:02:49 <kerlo> oklopol: is "equals" too complicated for you?
00:02:52 <oklopol> kerlo: you're wrong
00:02:55 <ehird> ocrap
00:02:57 <ehird> I invented subleq
00:02:58 <ehird> Execution of one instruction A B C subtracts the value of memory in A from the content of memory in B. If value after subtraction in B less or equal to zero, then execution jumps to the address C; otherwise to the next instruction.
00:03:05 <ehird> well, less or equal to zero
00:03:07 <kerlo> No, simplicity is objective and I'm always right.
00:03:10 <ehird> so mine's kind of less complex
00:03:25 <oklopol> kerlo: testing equality is pretty hard, yes
00:03:37 <kerlo> I never said testing equality.
00:03:43 <oklopol> so umm.
00:03:48 <oklopol> how about continuous computation
00:03:51 <kerlo> Proce.
00:03:55 <ehird> ok then:
00:03:55 <oklopol> you need an infinite amount of it to get anything done
00:03:57 <ehird> ej A B C
00:04:07 <kerlo> Proce.
00:04:08 <oklopol> programs are functions from reals to instruction fragments
00:04:11 <oklopol> proce?
00:04:13 <ehird> Reads A and B, if the values are equal, it stores 1 in B, otherwise it stores 0 in B.
00:04:16 <ehird> If they ARE equal, it jumps to C.
00:04:17 <impomatic> RSSB is less complex. One instruction and only one operand
00:04:24 <kerlo> Hmm.
00:04:24 <ehird> impomatic: link?
00:04:38 <ehird> i'm going for conceptual simplicity here
00:04:44 <ehird> so if RSSB does a lot, it doesn't qualify
00:04:47 <ehird> hmm you know what
00:04:53 <ehird> i think ej could possibly be TC
00:04:56 <ehird> if you scratched the storing
00:05:03 <oklopol> kerlo: proce?
00:05:09 <ehird> if the value in A is the value in B, jump to C. otherwise, continue as normal.
00:05:13 <ehird> dunno how you store things ofc :D
00:05:32 <oklopol> kerlo: so umm proce?
00:05:35 <kerlo> It's a programming language where every variable thingy is a function of real numbers.
00:05:48 <kerlo> You can implement the sine function very easily in Proce.
00:05:54 <oklopol> oh that lang of yours?
00:06:04 <kerlo> Yes.
00:06:07 <oklopol> that has nothing to do with what i said, but yeah, i remember it
00:06:20 <impomatic> See the RSSB page I made the other day http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB
00:06:29 <ehird> hrm
00:06:30 <ehird> interesting
00:06:37 <oklopol> essentially you have differential equations iirc
00:06:38 <ehird> but it has registers
00:06:40 <ehird> so not simple
00:06:45 <oklopol> which are automatically solved
00:06:53 <kerlo> Well, it had plenty to do with what you said until you said "programs are functions from reals to instruction fragments".
00:06:56 <oklopol> to get definitions for funcs involved
00:06:59 <kerlo> What do you mean by "instruction fragments"?
00:07:19 <ehird> impomatic: can't IP/ACC be in memory?
00:07:21 <ehird> like, at 0 and 1
00:07:31 <ehird> ah
00:07:32 <ehird> it is
00:07:37 <ehird> "The result is stored in both memory and the accumulator"
00:07:38 <ehird> both?
00:07:41 <ehird> surely that is not needed
00:07:46 <ehird> can't it just be in the accumulator/
00:07:47 <oklopol> kerlo: proce doesn't have continuous computation, it has computation applied on continuous things.
00:07:48 <kerlo> (Tough language: Programs are continuous functions from reals to reals where the image contains only integers.)
00:07:51 <oklopol> *applied to
00:08:03 <oklopol> hmm
00:08:17 <oklopol> kerlo: i have no idea what i mean by instruction fragments.
00:08:35 <kerlo> Oh.
00:08:48 <ehird> impomatic: ?
00:08:48 <oklopol> i mean continuous computation. instructions you can have any real amount of.
00:09:09 <impomatic> ehird: I'm not sure why the spec said both
00:09:20 * ehird writes simplified rssb
00:09:27 <oklopol> say you do instruction : 3.16 times, then # 87.001 times, and... umm... maybe something happens.
00:09:35 * kerlo nods
00:09:47 <ehird> impomatic: define below 0
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00:09:57 <ehird> signed integers in an architechture? Perverse.
00:10:03 <oklopol> kerlo: i'm just trying to think outside the box, computation's always so discrete and boring.
00:10:13 <impomatic> below 0: if the subtraction causes a borrow
00:10:41 <kerlo> So, memory is a continuous function from R.
00:10:47 <impomatic> There's a redcode implementation at http://impomatic.blogspot.com
00:10:51 <ehird> impomatic: i don't follow
00:10:54 <ehird> essplain?
00:10:56 <ehird> you mean like
00:11:00 <ehird> 1-2
00:11:00 <kerlo> And, um...
00:11:05 <oklopol> kerlo: yeah maybe, and instructions perform on single values
00:11:06 <ehird> despite not being below 0
00:11:08 <ehird> since there's no such thing
00:11:10 <ehird> counts as it?
00:11:14 <impomatic> Yes
00:11:18 <ehird> okie
00:11:26 <oklopol> kerlo: so you need an uncountable amount of them to get anything done
00:11:46 <impomatic> Basically if prior to the subtraction, acc > contents of memory location, skip the next instruction
00:12:10 <ehird> mem locs: 0 ip, 1 accumulator, 2 always contains 0, 3 input, 4 output
00:12:11 <ehird> Instruction: Subtract the accumulator from the contents of the operand, and
00:12:12 <ehird> store it in the accumulator. If this caused a borrow, jump to the instruction
00:12:14 <ehird> past the next one.
00:12:20 <ehird> simplified
00:12:22 <oklopol> kerlo: also flow control isn't jumping, it's more like slowly fading into another kind of computation, and somehow implement this by finding the conceptual integral of what the fading computation will achieve during its infinite fade.
00:12:23 <kerlo> An instruction is a continuous function f : <state> x real number -> <state> such that f(f(x,a),b) = f(x,a+b).
00:12:31 <kerlo> For all x, a and b.
00:12:36 <ehird> impomatic: so is there a reason it has to be stored in both?
00:12:59 <impomatic> There is an implementation of RSSB by David Tanguay, but I can't find a copy online
00:12:59 <kerlo> s/real number/non-negative real number/
00:13:11 <ehird> impomatic: ?
00:13:23 <impomatic> ehird: I just implemented as per David Tanguay's spec
00:13:26 <ehird> yeah
00:13:33 <ehird> I'm just wondering if only storing in the acc could be simpler
00:13:41 <oklopol> kerlo: that's a bit too concrete at this point.
00:13:49 <kerlo> Is not.
00:13:54 <oklopol> you don't want to have your functions be discrete objects....
00:14:10 * kerlo shrugs
00:14:13 <oklopol> they need to be continuous computation
00:14:13 <ehird> wait
00:14:18 <ehird> storing it in just one is useless
00:14:20 <ehird> hrm
00:14:21 <ehird> but both is ugly
00:14:33 <ehird> i think the accumulator is a hack
00:14:42 <oklopol> kerlo: i guess that's pretty much the definition of continuous computation though :P
00:14:48 <bsmntbombgirl> the accumulator is a lie
00:14:52 <oklopol> hmm or not.
00:15:16 <oklopol> kerlo: but err, probably a good definition.
00:15:23 <impomatic> ehird: if it only stores in acc, there's no way to modify memory. if it only stores in memory, then the only thing you can do with acc is set it to zero
00:15:45 <ehird> yeah
00:15:49 <ehird> still
00:15:51 <ehird> it's ugly
00:16:12 <kerlo> The set Q consists of all continuous functions Q -> Q.
00:16:27 <kerlo> Q is the least fixed point of that.
00:16:40 <kerlo> Or, if you prefer, the union of all fixed points of that.
00:16:47 <ehird> impomatic:
00:16:47 <ehird> sjlz a b: Subtract the contents of a from the contents of b, and store the
00:16:48 <ehird> result in b. If this caused a borrow, skip the next instruction.
00:16:52 <ehird> much more conceptually pure
00:16:54 <oklopol> kerlo: sounds feasible
00:16:58 <ehird> and only one more operand
00:18:34 <kerlo> I is in Q, as for all x in Q, x is in Q, and if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (that is, S) is also open.
00:19:13 <oklopol> kerlo: I as in identity?
00:19:16 <kerlo> For all x in Q, K x is in Q, as for all y in Q, x is in Q, and if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (either Q or empty) is also open.
00:19:23 <kerlo> I is identity combinator, K is constant combinator.
00:19:23 <oklopol> right.
00:19:30 <oklopol> yeah you answered that already
00:20:02 <oklopol> kerlo: did you invent Q just now?
00:20:20 <kerlo> Yes.
00:20:48 <oklopol> "if a set S of Q's is open, its preimage under I (that is, S) is also open" i don't understand this
00:20:59 <ehird> outputting a
00:21:00 <ehird> a out
00:21:00 <oklopol> but then again, you're the abstract nonsense guy :P
00:21:01 <ehird> =a 97
00:21:05 <ehird> where a out -> ajlz a out
00:21:13 <ehird> and =a 97 defines a bit of memory with that value in.
00:21:26 <ehird> ajlz a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b.
00:21:26 <ehird> If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction.
00:21:30 <kerlo> The preimage of S under I is S. Therefore, if a set S is open, its preimage under I is also open.
00:21:36 <kerlo> And yeah, I love abstract nonsense.
00:21:47 <oklopol> yeah who doesn't
00:22:07 <oklopol> preimage of x = the set of things that map to x?
00:22:13 <ehird> also
00:22:22 <ehird> here's a one-instruction one-character cat program
00:22:24 <ehird> in out
00:22:24 <ehird> :-D
00:22:27 * ehird makes it loop
00:23:00 <kerlo> oklopol: the set of things that map to elements of x.
00:23:24 <oklopol> kerlo: that's what i meant
00:23:27 <ehird> impomatic: how do you jump backwards with rssb?
00:23:31 <oklopol> liek, map into x
00:23:38 <oklopol> but yeah okay
00:24:30 <oklopol> kerlo: what's the significance of the "and if a set S of..." part?
00:24:36 <kerlo> For K to be in Q, it must be a function Q -> Q (it is) and it must be continuous. For it to be continuous, the preimage of every open set must be open.
00:25:05 <oklopol> oh. that's a definition for being continuous?
00:25:09 <kerlo> Yep.
00:25:13 <oklopol> ah, alright.
00:25:16 <ehird> impomatic: how do you jump backwards with rssb?
00:25:23 <oklopol> i'm quite new to this still
00:25:32 <impomatic> ehird: subtract something from ip
00:25:50 <ehird> ah
00:26:15 <ehird> and we all know that subtracting is a special case of addition ;-)
00:26:38 <oklopol> kerlo: oh actually i think i see how that relates to the crucial axiom of dedekind sets
00:26:42 <kerlo> The preimage of a set under K is {x : K x is in the set}, of course. And, um... bah, I'm going to ask #math a question.
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00:27:16 <impomatic> Jump requires 4 lines of RSSB:
00:27:16 <impomatic> rssb acc ; set acc to 0
00:27:17 <impomatic> rssb $+2 ; set acc to loop offset
00:27:17 <impomatic> rssb ip ; subtract acc from ip
00:27:17 <impomatic> rssb $-loop ; the loop offset
00:28:32 <ehird> then my infinite cat program is
00:29:14 <ehird> ajof 3 4
00:29:17 <ehird> ajof 2 0
00:29:29 <ehird> 3=input 4=output 2=maximum int (4294967295) 0=ip
00:29:34 <ehird> ajof a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b.
00:29:34 <ehird> If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction.
00:29:50 <ehird> hrm.
00:29:58 <ehird> actually since the whole idea there is to overflow that doesn't work. i think
00:30:36 <impomatic> Is there a brainfuck variant which adds a stack?
00:30:46 <ehird> many. but brainfuck sucks :P
00:30:52 <kerlo> Darn, the answer is "no".
00:31:30 <ehird> hmm
00:31:31 <ehird> I thought
00:31:31 <ehird> max max
00:31:33 <ehird> in out
00:31:35 <ehird> in out
00:31:37 <ehird> max ip
00:31:39 <ehird> but then when it loops, it runs it twice
00:31:45 <ehird> (max max doesn't touch max, ofc, since it's constant)
00:31:53 * kerlo ponders the definition of a neighborhood of an element of Q
00:32:00 <ehird> impomatic: any thoughts?
00:32:04 <oklopol> kerlo: yes i looked
00:32:17 <oklopol> kerlo: what are neighborhoods?
00:33:07 <impomatic> Back tomorrow :-)
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00:33:29 <kerlo> A neighborhood of a point is a superset of an open set containing that point.
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00:33:48 <oklopol> hmm. i'm not sure #math with appreciate your set
00:34:02 <ehird> okay so
00:34:05 <ehird> complete spec:
00:34:06 <ehird> 0 is ip, 1 contains 0, 2 contains max int (4294967295), 3 is input, 4 is output
00:34:07 <ehird> ajof a b: Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b.
00:34:09 <ehird> If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction.
00:34:11 <ehird> go forth and write progz >:(
00:34:20 <ehird> ps ajof a b can be written as ... a b
00:34:30 <oklopol> kerlo: okay right.
00:34:49 <ehird> :3
00:35:06 <kerlo> f is near g if and only if for all x, f(x) is near g(x). Unfortunately, "near" doesn't mean anything.
00:35:46 <kerlo> In a neighborhood F of f, for all x, F(x) is a neighborhood of f(x), I think.
00:36:31 <oklopol> kerlo: btw that's a pretty weird definition, like, (2,4) U {0} would be a neighborhood of 3?
00:36:51 <kerlo> I believe so.
00:37:03 <oklopol> probably would be less weird if i saw uses.
00:37:27 <ehird> someoneeeeee
00:37:34 <oklopol> kerlo: i'm not sure you understand what Q is.
00:37:42 <kerlo> What do you think Q is?
00:37:56 <kerlo> Nonexistent due to a power set cardinality theorem?
00:37:58 <oklopol> well i mean; how can a function from functions to functions be continuous?
00:38:33 <oklopol> kerlo: well my intuition says there might be a problem like that, but i don't actually know. what i do know is i don't understand what the definition even means.
00:38:38 <kerlo> I believe that for all topological spaces P and Q, there is a standard topological space P -> Q.
00:38:51 <oklopol> kerlo: problem is i don't know topology
00:39:15 <oklopol> you see i started doing math this fall. i'm doing integrals and groups now.
00:39:25 * kerlo nods
00:40:26 <oklopol> btw. gotta sleep i think.
00:41:13 <oklopol> -->
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02:20:40 <psygnisf_> wtf is this "instantaneous computation"?
02:20:56 <psygnisf_> and "strong synchronous programming"? D:
02:21:29 <Slereah2> You enter shit, and bam! It's computed!
02:21:34 <psygnisf_> :P
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02:38:31 <GregorR> Uh?
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04:11:23 -!- GregorR has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The Freshmaker!.
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06:29:01 <GregorR> A Dorponnified Talliachre is a lunchbox! It makes clicking noises!
06:29:37 <GregorR> Gregor is a lightbulb that floats in water! It pushes things down staircases and works underwater.
06:34:46 <GregorR> A woman is like a normal cricket bat, but it squirts clouds of black ink.
06:34:56 <GregorR> A man is like a normal pogo stick, but it's inflammable.
06:36:19 <GregorR> A pogo stick is a hair gel that fits in your pocket! It crushes ice.
06:36:29 <GregorR> Hair gel is a speaker system that's great for hammering in nails! It emits dangerous radiation and repairs itself.
06:36:40 <GregorR> I'm done :P
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07:13:03 <bsmntbombgirl> good god
07:13:08 <bsmntbombgirl> what is this /topic
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10:37:59 * oklopol is listening to some quality heavy metal bashing: http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3
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11:12:41 <Mony> plop
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13:49:05 <impomatic> 112 Hello, World! ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.>[<-<<+>>>-]<++.<<+.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
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14:00:42 <ehird> <impomatic> 112 Hello, World! ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.>[<-<<+>>>-]<++.<<+.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
14:00:44 <ehird> neato!
14:02:44 <impomatic> Hi Ehird. 1 instruction longer than Wikipedia, but it includes the comma.
14:02:56 <ehird> does it include the newline
14:03:00 <impomatic> No
14:03:08 <ehird> you really want a newline :p
14:03:28 <impomatic> Some of the other examples didn't have newline
14:03:35 <ehird> hrm.
14:03:39 <ehird> It is standard to terminate with 10, thoug
14:03:39 <ehird> h
14:03:45 <ehird> err, not 10 newlines :P
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14:35:22 <ehird> gah omg
14:35:25 <ehird> 2008-01-18
14:35:25 <ehird> 00:42:31 --- nick: oklopol -> Z
14:35:26 <ehird> 00:42:46 --- nick: Z -> oklopol
14:35:28 <ehird> 00:42:59 <oklopol> too late
14:35:31 <ehird> oklopol you let it get away
14:35:38 <ehird> uhhhh
14:35:39 <ehird> hi people
14:35:42 <ehird> :|
14:35:47 <ehird> ^bf ,[.,]!brainfuck. etc.
14:35:48 <fungot> brainfuck. etc.
14:41:06 <impomatic> Lol at censoring brainfuck to b****fuck :-)
14:43:33 <ehird> :)
14:48:15 <Mony> lol
14:48:57 <impomatic> Anyone want to implement Redcode++? http://corewar.co.uk/opcodes.htm
14:49:31 <Mony> sweet
14:50:00 <Mony> I wanted to make a esolang like this
14:50:04 <Mony> but now, it's too late :o
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14:51:30 <ehird> wait
14:51:32 <ehird> redcode++? ew
14:51:35 <ehird> why not just
14:51:36 <ehird> recode
14:51:36 <ehird> :P
14:52:02 * oerjan thinks that looks like the end of a haiku
14:52:19 <ehird> Yael still beats redcode
14:52:33 <ehird> 15 instructions
14:52:35 * AnMaster wonders...
14:52:38 <AnMaster> SQL++?
14:52:39 <AnMaster> :D
14:52:39 <ehird> admittedly, you only get 256 bytes of memory.
14:53:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Newsflash: taking SQL and bashing something on the end of it is not the source of a thousand hilarious ideas.
14:53:06 <ehird> as much as you want it to be.
14:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, actually C++ style object orientation bolted onto SQL would be quite nasty
14:53:57 <ehird> nasty != interesting and funny
14:54:01 <AnMaster> I mean even nastier than it already is
14:54:14 <ehird> in as much as the same way as a language based on the holocaust would be "nasty"
14:54:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well said
14:54:45 <ehird> speaking of which, who wants to beta-test holocaust++ :p
14:55:07 <AnMaster> specs?
14:55:48 <oerjan> O_O
14:56:50 <oerjan> ehird: what about SQLCOATL?
14:56:52 <ehird> jew: Takes a random jew off the heap. gas(x): Gasses the jew x.
14:57:11 <ehird> When you have gassed as many jews as the nazis, it executes the remaining program as Perl.
14:57:16 <AnMaster> also: QUERY foo = NEW QUERY('SELECT * FROM mytable'); foo.EXECUTE();
14:57:17 <AnMaster> ;P
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14:57:52 <oerjan> the great database serpent
14:58:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, :D
14:59:44 <oerjan> oh wait
14:59:57 * oerjan realizes that holocaust++ was made up on the spot here
15:00:06 <oerjan> i was starting to worry about ehird
15:00:49 <ehird> hee
15:01:13 <Slereah> The holocaust never happened, silly man
15:01:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, SQLULHU?
15:01:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: doesn't roll that well off the tentacle
15:02:08 <AnMaster> true
15:02:16 <AnMaster> hard to pronounce
15:02:20 <oerjan> Slereah: from you this is expected
15:02:21 -!- Judofyr has joined.
15:02:37 <oerjan> SQLHU perhaps
15:02:55 <Slereah> oerjan : You expect that from a jew?
15:02:57 <Slereah> Racist
15:03:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm maybe
15:03:10 <oerjan> Slereah: you've done so before
15:03:32 <oerjan> jew bashing, that is
15:03:56 <oerjan> actually there is probably some jew somewhere denying the holocaust
15:04:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw: wtf at iwc today
15:04:58 <oerjan> i mean i vaguely recall hearing about neo-nazi jews
15:05:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: um no spoilers
15:05:21 <oerjan> that's next on my schedule :D
15:05:22 <Asztal> I always read that as neon-nazis
15:05:27 <Asztal> it sounds so much cooler than it is
15:06:08 <oerjan> much easier to hit them when lighted up
15:07:05 <oerjan> ah the Espionage theory was right
15:07:38 <oerjan> er wait, disregard, SPOILER :D
15:08:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, it could be a red hearing
15:08:24 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=3190
15:08:33 <oerjan> no i mean the theory that since it wasn't in the list, it had escaped unscathed
15:09:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, that could be a red hearing
15:09:25 <oerjan> >_<
15:09:38 <oerjan> um wait are you misspelling that on purpose?
15:09:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, no?
15:09:48 <AnMaster> oops
15:09:51 <AnMaster> herring*
15:10:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, why should I misspell it on purpose?
15:10:15 <oerjan> another awful pun attempt of course
15:10:26 <AnMaster> I can't see how that could be a pun
15:10:27 <AnMaster> at all
15:10:38 <ehird> I can't see how any of your "puns" could be a pun.
15:10:40 <oerjan> good, good
15:11:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: now we're just missing a Supers strip
15:11:15 <AnMaster> ehird, Chehkov's pun
15:11:17 <AnMaster> sorry!
15:12:02 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsPun
15:12:14 <AnMaster> it exists?
15:12:23 <oerjan> (standard tvtropes warning applies)
15:12:31 <oerjan> but of course
15:13:44 <oerjan> oh it's a tvtropes meta-thing
15:14:00 <oerjan> and self-referential too :D
15:14:55 <AnMaster> huh, very confusing
15:14:58 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://impomatic.blogspot.com").
15:15:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh btw uf was quite funny today
15:15:32 <AnMaster> as for the current xkcd: I don't get it
15:15:37 <oerjan> it's about making new trope names by making puns on completely unrelated ones
15:15:57 <oerjan> uf?
15:16:10 <ehird> uf=userfriendly. shit comic.
15:16:39 <AnMaster> too long running
15:16:49 <ehird> no. too shit
15:16:52 <AnMaster> isn't it over 10 years now? daily
15:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, would you say garfield is shit?
15:17:35 <ehird> Why is that even a question? Who the fuck would say "no"?
15:17:48 <AnMaster> I agree. But some of the early ones aren't as bad
15:17:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: you don't want your genetic algorithm to develop sentience and destroy the world, is the point
15:17:52 <ehird> no
15:18:04 <ehird> all garfield comics are irredeemably terrible
15:18:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, true, but xkcd wasn't very good today
15:18:11 <ehird> and anyone who likes them has some sort of mental defect
15:18:13 <AnMaster> or whatever it was
15:18:14 <ehird> also, xkcd was hilarious.
15:18:15 <oerjan> it was yesterday
15:18:18 <AnMaster> Friday?
15:18:27 <ehird> if you want to read xkcd it's best to know pop culture.
15:18:39 <oerjan> Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 5:00 UTC
15:18:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=skynet
15:19:00 <AnMaster> square root of minus garfield rocks though
15:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I did google it
15:19:17 <AnMaster> but I didn't get the other things, like fuel and such
15:19:28 <ehird> umm, those weren't part of the joke.
15:19:34 <ehird> those were part of a regular genetic algorithm.
15:19:34 <ehird> duh.
15:19:36 <AnMaster> hm ok
15:19:45 <ehird> Sources: the _huge freaking arrow_ pointing to the skynet.
15:22:17 * oerjan reads the annotation and realizes why AnMaster spoke about red herrings
15:22:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, and read the forum
15:22:54 <oerjan> later, bus ->
15:23:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
15:24:02 * ehird reads logs and rediscovers that `vi` is a 4-character ruby infinite loop
15:24:04 <ehird> perl too
15:25:00 <AnMaster> I wonder who many read xkcd? I mean I googled for some of those phrases in the last blag post and got over 200 000 posts for some...
15:25:09 <AnMaster> (that he said was original when he tried)
15:25:29 <AnMaster> afk
15:25:31 <ehird> ~34974
15:25:43 <ehird> 34974 is the forum members. about 10% of people join the forum, I bet.
15:25:48 <ehird> so 300000
15:25:50 <ehird> ors o
15:25:51 <ehird> *or so
15:25:58 <ehird> probably more.
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15:29:38 <Asztal> I'd guess 10% is a very optimistic figure
15:30:33 <ehird> yeah
15:30:40 <ehird> probably 2% or something
15:30:47 <ehird> i mean, i never looked at the forum
15:31:06 <AnMaster> I have looked at it if I was linked by someone else
15:31:09 <AnMaster> but that is all
15:33:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:51:26 <ehird> hi ais523.
15:51:31 -!- Hiato has joined.
15:51:33 <ais523> hi
15:51:38 <ais523> to both ehird and Hiato
15:51:50 <ais523> who I have different reasons to say hi to, ehird because he just said hi, and Hiato for just joining
15:51:52 <ehird> i was 20 minutes late
15:51:52 <ehird> :)
15:52:07 <Hiato> Well hello ais523, glad I could 'just join' you :P
16:17:23 <AnMaster> hi ais523
16:24:26 <ais523> hi AnMaster
16:24:54 <AnMaster> bbl
16:26:55 -!- Metcalf has joined.
16:27:47 <ehird> hi Metcalf
16:28:21 <Metcalf> Hi
16:28:49 <Metcalf> Should I remove this from the Brainfuck wiki page, or add a note to say it doesn't work? http://max.subfighter.com/tools/brainfuck.php?subsite=eso
16:28:57 <ais523> add a note to say it doesn't work
16:29:07 <ais523> sometimes we try to find pages in Wayback
16:29:15 <ais523> as esoprogramming links tend to break pretty quickly
16:30:03 <Metcalf> ais523: the page hasn't disappeared. The JavaScript Brainfuck interpretter doesn't work. I think the problem is with nested loops.
16:30:33 <Metcalf> Example should display ijk: +++[>+++++[>+++++++[>+<-]<-]<-]>>>.+.+.
16:30:37 <ais523> oh, in that case all the more so say it's a non-working interp
16:30:49 <ais523> I'm surprised how many non-working BF interps there are out there, actually
16:30:51 <Metcalf> Works on this interpreter
16:30:52 <ais523> given it's such a simple language
16:31:04 <ais523> ^bf +++[>+++++[>+++++++[>+<-]<-]<-]>>>.+.+.
16:31:04 <fungot> ijk
16:31:30 <ais523> I remember a while back sampling how the BF interps linked from the esowiki that I could easily test handled EOF
16:31:49 <ais523> conventional wisdom here is that 0, -1, and no-change are the only three sane values, with arguments about the merits of each
16:32:08 <ais523> I came across all sorts of other values, though, like 32 and error
16:32:14 <ehird> i don't think many people argue for -1 nowadays
16:32:16 <ehird> so it's 0 vs no-change
16:32:35 <ehird> and there are programs that work with 0 but not no-change, yet all(?) no-change programs do [-], to loop anyway
16:32:38 <ehird> so 0 is prolly the best choice
16:34:11 <ais523> ehird: -1 is clearly correct if you have bignum cells
16:34:26 <ais523> inability to input NUL is just ridiculous
16:34:31 <ehird> is that a joke?
16:34:36 <ais523> no, it isn't
16:34:41 <ehird> BF cells are unsigned.
16:34:47 <ais523> ehird: not in bignum
16:34:53 <ehird> ummmmm, yeah.
16:34:58 <ais523> because you can't wrap from 0 to +infinity
16:35:08 <ehird> bignum interps don't wrap.
16:35:16 <ehird> they error on - at 0
16:35:17 <ais523> hmm... arguably, they ought to
16:35:23 <ehird> no.
16:35:26 <ehird> not arguably
16:35:42 <ais523> for instance, making [-] clear a cell in a bignum interp would be kind-of cleve
16:35:43 <ais523> *clever
16:35:48 <ais523> even if it accepted negative numbes
16:35:52 <ais523> but doable, I think
16:36:05 <AnMaster> back
16:36:07 <ais523> you'd have to do a lot of converting loops to polynomials to get that to work, thuogh
16:36:55 <ais523> anyway, I strongly disagree with a system which makes it possible to have a character the interpreter is incapable of reading
16:37:10 <ais523> which is an argument for no-change on bignum I suppose
16:37:19 <ais523> because you could set the cell to 0x110000 or something before reading
16:37:24 <ais523> even though that would take a while
16:38:12 -!- Metcalf has changed nick to impomatic.
16:40:04 <AnMaster> ais523, you could do it another way: out-of-band signaling?
16:40:14 <ais523> AnMaster: in Brainfuck?
16:40:18 <ais523> you'd have to redefine the language spec
16:40:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yes indeed
16:40:35 <ais523> I agree that might make sense for a new language, but not for a language as established as BF
16:40:37 <AnMaster> you have input store error code in one cell above
16:45:08 <ehird> <ehird`> molchuvka: the fuel that powers the steam engine that creates nightmares
16:45:15 <ehird> 2007-10-03
16:45:30 <ais523> ah, delving into the history of #esoteric
16:45:37 <ehird> yeah, I do this a lot.
16:45:37 <ais523> back when someone had stolen ehird's nick
16:45:43 <ehird> it's more fun than the present-day #esoteric :P
16:45:44 <ais523> the memories
16:46:01 <ais523> hmm... I need to finish Underlambda sometime
16:46:08 <ais523> and start the Great Esolang Compilation Project
16:46:20 <ehird> mm
16:46:28 <Slereah> ais523 : EsCo?
16:46:33 <ehird> funny thing is...
16:46:37 <ais523> Slereah: no, that's just to interpret things
16:46:38 <ehird> This channel was similar to how it is now in 2002-2003.
16:46:43 <ehird> Not actual esolang discussion.
16:46:49 <ehird> Just a few active people talking about random crap.
16:46:54 <ais523> I want a project that can compile any esolang into any other, as long as they're both TC
16:47:00 <Slereah> I resemble that remark >:|
16:47:18 <ais523> and write an interp for any esolang in any other, why not
16:47:42 <ais523> if you have the compilers themself written in an esolang, you need just the one interp and you can combine it with a couple of compilers to get an anything-to-anything interp
16:47:44 <ehird> I love how in 2002 lament set the topic to "this channel is not dead aummmmmmmmm"
16:47:46 <ehird> or something
16:47:53 <ehird> and yet it only gets more active over time
16:47:53 <Slereah> ais523 : Wouldn't that priject be gigantic?
16:47:58 <ais523> Slereah: pretty much
16:47:59 <Slereah> Or do you just mean the big esolands?
16:48:08 <ais523> I'll start with the famous ones, I think
16:48:11 <Slereah> Also I can't type today
16:48:22 <ais523> maybe make a generic BF-equivalent-compiler, that would handle half of them
16:54:15 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
16:55:58 <ehird> <Twitter> Error(461): #twitter Unable to update @replies. Twitter Fail Whale.
16:55:59 <ehird> >:(
16:56:48 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:01:06 <impomatic> Does anyone know what the smallest bf quine is?
17:01:37 <ais523> impomatic: the null string
17:01:40 <ais523> I'm not sure what it is without cheating
17:03:22 <ehird> dbc's
17:03:24 <ehird> prolly
17:03:36 <ehird> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/392quine.b
17:03:42 <ais523> is that the shortest possible, or just the shortest known?
17:03:49 <ehird> shortest known
17:04:01 <ehird> "(392 may be the shortest real one known)" -http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/
17:06:15 <impomatic> Thanks :-)
17:14:45 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:33:06 <impomatic> Revised bf interpreter in Redcode http://impomatic.blogspot.com/2009/01/brainf-interpreter-in-redcode.html
17:33:37 <ehird> someone should implement my add-jump-if-overflow :P
17:33:44 * ehird digs up spec
17:34:03 <ehird> one operation:
17:34:13 <ehird> a b -- Add the contents of a to the contents of b, and store the result in b. If this caused an overflow, skip the next instruction.
17:34:23 <ais523> how does it do backwards jumps?
17:34:30 <ehird> special memory locations: 2=input 3=output 1=maximum int (4294967295) 0=ip
17:34:36 <ehird> ais523: overflow the ip
17:34:50 <ais523> impomatic: probably not very useful for actual CoreWars games, but it's always nice to have esolang-in-esolang implementations
17:35:06 <ais523> how does it handle EOF, by the way?
17:37:42 <impomatic> I'd have to check, I think there's a problem with the Redcode interpreter. When it reaches EOF, I think it continues to wait for a character.
17:37:57 <ais523> ah, ok
17:38:05 <ais523> sometimes underlying IO issues are impossible to work aruond
17:38:08 <ais523> *around
17:38:26 <ais523> I've actually been trying to design an IO system for Underlambda which is general enough to compile easily into anything
17:38:36 <ais523> hmm... I have to go but I'll be back soon, need to go to a different connection
17:38:42 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: going to a different computer").
17:45:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:46:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:47:02 <ais523> wb me
17:47:48 <ais523> <sign I saw on the way here, presumably previously outside the Door but it had been moved> SECURITY DO NOT LOCK THIS DOOR, IT IS WORKING CORRECTLY
17:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, moved where?
17:52:03 <ais523> AnMaster: to what appeared to be a storage place for not-in-use signs
17:52:11 <ais523> so presumably that Door has started malfunctioning again
17:52:22 <ais523> the other one seems to be working, but now has about 3 brand new control panels around it
17:54:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how hard can door be...
17:54:26 <ais523> exactly
17:54:41 <AnMaster> well of course it depends on what material it is made of ;P
17:54:42 <ais523> this is one of the main amusements in the constant tale of the Doors
17:55:00 <ais523> AnMaster: don't explain that, I got it first time
17:55:05 <AnMaster> great!
17:55:25 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway there is more than one door with issues?
17:55:48 <ais523> yes, there are two doors
17:55:50 <ais523> and they've both had issues
17:55:59 <ais523> there is a third door which doesn't but we're not allowed to use
17:56:03 <AnMaster> no other doors at the place has issues?
17:56:07 <ehird> ais523: start a blog about the doors!
17:56:14 <ehird> :p
17:56:17 <AnMaster> also why aren't you allowed to use the third one?
17:56:18 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it's just external doors here
17:56:22 <ais523> from inside to outside
17:56:41 <ais523> AnMaster: they thought that having too many usable doors for entering and leaving was a security risk
17:56:57 <AnMaster> ais523, they key word here I feel is "usable"
17:57:14 <ais523> heh
17:57:21 <ais523> they did have to open up the third one for a while
17:57:25 <ais523> just because the other two had gone so mad
17:57:32 <ais523> but that was a while ago now
17:57:42 <AnMaster> ais523, the third one continued working even when they opened it up?
17:58:00 <ais523> the third one's been working all along
17:58:07 <ais523> normally they set it to lock itself permanently, though, nowadays
17:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, so make it the primary?
17:58:11 <ais523> but when they set it to do something else, it works
17:58:16 <ais523> and it's in an awkward place to be the primary
17:58:20 <AnMaster> oh
17:58:32 <AnMaster> also did you say "three control panels"+
17:58:34 <AnMaster> ?
17:58:54 <ais523> yes
17:58:56 <AnMaster> why more than one I wonder...
17:59:04 <ais523> because the first two didn't work?
17:59:11 <ais523> actually, I suspect one of them is actually for the air conditioning
17:59:15 <AnMaster> well if all three were brand new
17:59:17 <ais523> and it's just coincidence that it's next to the Door
17:59:18 <AnMaster> oh right
17:59:21 <ais523> but why spoil a good story?
17:59:27 <AnMaster> good point
18:01:31 -!- Corun has joined.
18:13:13 <ehird> graue used to have a very short fuse
18:13:15 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Stux&diff=2936&oldid=2935
18:14:12 <ais523> I remember that incident
18:14:36 <ehird> the category policy is pretty stupid
18:14:41 <ehird> it's a wiki...
18:14:46 <ais523> also, how rare to see an IP where all the numbers are less than 99?
18:14:59 <ehird> hm?
18:15:08 <ais523> look at the next edit
18:15:13 <ais523> which is Stux's reply
18:15:17 <ais523> from IP because he was blocked at the time
18:15:19 <ehird> ah, neat
18:16:53 <ais523> graue calmed down after a bit, anywya
18:16:56 <ais523> *anyway
18:17:10 <ais523> apparently the block was just to prevent the person causing any more damage before they saw the message telling them to stop
18:17:23 <ais523> and well-intentioned edits are sometimes blocked for the same reason in Wikipedia itself
18:17:30 <ais523> when someone isn't communicating
18:18:43 <ehird> it wasn't damage, though.
18:18:43 <ehird> :P
18:19:19 <ais523> it was from graue's point of view though, I think
18:19:42 <ais523> editing pages on a wiki is kind-of different from changing the set of pages that exist
18:19:51 <ais523> even though those are both considered fair game to tinker with on most wikis
18:20:01 <ais523> presumably graue wanted people to change the first but not the second
18:20:22 <ehird> meh. he's inactive enough for that policy to be irrelevant nowadays
18:21:28 -!- Hiato has joined.
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18:47:19 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
19:00:58 -!- jix has joined.
19:06:59 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
19:07:24 <AnMaster> can you explain wtf is up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erard_double_pilot_action.svg I just see a "transparency grid" there
19:07:32 <ais523> let me check
19:07:39 <AnMaster> full size works and so does thumbnail in articles
19:07:53 <ais523> AnMaster: well to confuse the issue, it works for me too
19:08:01 <ais523> visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erard_double_pilot_action.svg?action=purge
19:08:04 <ais523> does that work?
19:08:09 <AnMaster> ais523, no it didn't help
19:08:11 <AnMaster> already tried that
19:08:18 <ais523> ok, that is strange
19:08:33 <ais523> do a browser cache reset?
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not logged in, I don't have any account, could that affect
19:08:39 <ais523> it's control-F5 in firefox and IE
19:08:42 <AnMaster> and I tried ctrl-shift-r
19:08:45 <ais523> ok
19:08:59 <ais523> cache reset and purge, and it isn't working for you but it is for me?
19:09:02 <ais523> that's really odd
19:09:16 <AnMaster> ais523, ok now it suddenly works the fifth time or so...
19:09:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I just purged it
19:09:40 <ais523> and as purging is for all users, possibly my purge affected it for you
19:09:42 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe non-logged in can't purge?
19:09:52 <ais523> AnMaster: they can, but there's a click-through
19:09:53 <AnMaster> even though I clicked yes
19:09:55 <ais523> I wasn't logged in either
19:09:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I did click that
19:14:09 * ais523 just found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling
19:14:23 <ais523> the theory that gravity is incorrect, and some intelligent being causes things to fall
19:15:14 <Slereah> What about things that don't fall?
19:15:14 <AnMaster> ... maybe the flying spaghetti monster?
19:15:26 <ais523> who knows/
19:16:07 <Slereah> Balloons are of the devil
19:16:21 <Slereah> Especially devil shaped balloon
19:19:47 <ais523> hmm... it seems useless use of cat has evolved
19:19:54 <ais523> <some poster on Slashdot> cat " slashdot.org" >> /etc/hosts
19:20:23 <ais523> embarrassingly it took me a moment to spot what was wrong with that
19:24:45 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:24:48 <comex> what the fuck
19:25:17 <comex> (me too)
19:25:36 <oklopol> what's the wrong?
19:25:41 <ehird> cat should be echo
19:25:42 <ais523> ofc, there is a command that does just that, it just isn't cat
19:25:45 <ehird> ais523: you missed the previous line
19:25:50 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:25:58 <ehird> echo " slashdot.org" >" slashdot.org"
19:25:59 <ais523> ehird: didn't miss, messages crossed due to IRC and typing lag
19:26:05 <ehird> no
19:26:07 <ehird> the previous line of the post
19:26:08 <ehird> :P
19:26:13 <ais523> ehird: the post didn't say that
19:26:21 <ehird> what is humour
19:26:23 <ais523> although someone did comment on the fact that it might just be an oddly named file
19:26:32 <ehird> i don't understand, what is this humour you speak of
19:26:34 <ehird> i mean, jokes?? what
19:26:43 <AnMaster> indeed what are they?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> tell me ehird!
19:27:08 <AnMaster> (or not)
19:27:09 <ehird> it's funny because it's true.
19:27:31 <ais523> ehird: your joke just wasn't funny
19:27:42 <AnMaster> ehird, does this imply that anything that is true is funny?
19:27:45 <ehird> better than AnMaster's, ais523
19:27:50 <ehird> AnMaster: no.
19:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, also i wasn't making any joke here
19:45:31 <AnMaster> I was being sarcastic however
19:45:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders if the 18 minute delay in AnMaster's comment was due to looking up an internet joke-funniness-meter
19:45:52 <ais523> there must be one in existence by now
19:46:00 <ais523> some way to tell if something is funny or not automatically
19:46:09 <ehird> bayes
19:46:31 <AnMaster> ais523, no because I was afk
19:46:31 <ais523> ehird: you should so try that
19:46:40 <AnMaster> looking for a CD with classical music
19:46:40 <ehird> the training would be rather tedious.
19:46:41 <ais523> also, try with multiple sets of training data
19:46:46 <ais523> rated by different people
19:47:02 <ehird> actually, I could just feed it everything AnMaster has ever said in here as unfunny
19:47:10 <ehird> that'd probably work well enough
19:47:26 <AnMaster> ...
19:47:38 <ehird> I rest my case
19:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, {{pov}}
19:48:31 <ehird> I like how you're proving my joke
19:48:34 <ais523> AnMaster: {{tl|pov}}'s a block rather than inline template (at least it was last I looked), so you can't place it after a comma
19:48:49 <ais523> at least, not without formatting weirdness
19:49:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, well I don't edit much wikipedia. there is one that is inline however
19:49:46 <AnMaster> {{POV-statement}} it seems
19:49:48 <ais523> AnMaster: {{tl|pov-statement}}, apparently
19:49:54 <AnMaster> ais523, tl?
19:50:03 <ais523> AnMaster: for mentioning a template rather than using it
19:50:12 <ais523> tl| is basically the quote mark for template
19:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, and why are you doing that on irc...
19:50:16 <ais523> or tlx| if it takes arguments
19:50:22 <ais523> AnMaster: because the joke doesn't work otherwise
19:50:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I wasn't aware of this feature on wikipedia
19:50:46 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't a feature, it's just another template
19:50:53 <ais523> which takes template names as arguments
19:50:58 <ais523> and returns the markup used to call that template
19:51:27 <ais523> you don't use it in articles, but it's pretty common on discussion pages (and often substed there, btw)
19:51:34 <AnMaster> mhm
19:51:52 <AnMaster> why all that substing btw?
19:52:04 <ais523> to subst or not to subst tl is a huge argument
19:52:13 <ais523> and I can't even remember the arguments now, it's been so long ago
19:52:17 <ais523> since I last went over them
19:52:17 <AnMaster> mhm
19:52:40 <ais523> especially as half the arguments made on that particular debate tended to be wrong or irrelevant
19:52:55 <AnMaster> there is no performance gain if the system is properly designed (ie, cache pre-rendered pages)
19:53:06 <AnMaster> and that is about the only argument for I can think of
19:53:24 <ais523> performance was one argument
19:53:36 <ais523> and actually there is, it makes the templatelinks table smaller, but people were arguing about whether that was relevant or not
19:53:54 <ais523> also, pages are edited often enough on Wikipedia that once-per-edit costs are certainly potentially relevant
19:53:56 <AnMaster> did anyone profile it?
19:54:02 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
19:54:05 <ehird> it's hard to profile a live website.
19:54:11 <ehird> that you don't have shell access to.
19:54:13 <ais523> but see [[WP:AUM]] if you're interested in the history
19:54:15 <ais523> that was about something else
19:54:16 <ehird> without disrupting.
19:54:19 <ais523> but it was a similar argument
19:54:28 <AnMaster> well you could run a db dump and then re-run some edit history
19:54:33 <AnMaster> with/without subst
19:54:49 <ehird> ...
19:54:57 <ais523> there was also <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Transclusion_costs_and_benefits>
19:55:08 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) db dumps are public 2) that includes edit history
19:55:09 <ais523> which was an alleged non-POV version of AUM which some people still think was biased
19:55:17 <ehird> no shit, AnMaster
19:55:24 <ehird> that wasn't why I ...ed
19:55:25 <AnMaster> thus it shouldn't be that hard
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19:55:40 <ais523> and then <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance>
19:58:15 <ais523> and then, see <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2008-February/089548.html> for the followup
19:58:23 <AnMaster> mhm
19:58:33 <ais523> and there was an amusing but only vaguely related incident some time later when an admin deleted the Main Page by mistake
19:58:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch ouch ouch
19:59:00 <AnMaster> you can restore that right?
19:59:08 <ais523> you can restore anything
19:59:24 <AnMaster> mhm
19:59:25 <ais523> unless it was deleted before the deleted revisions archive got deleted by mistake, and that was ages ago
20:00:00 <AnMaster> ais523, what about images?
20:00:10 <ais523> they have deleted revision archives too
20:00:19 <AnMaster> didn't until recently iirc?
20:00:23 <ais523> I think so
20:00:32 <ais523> it's a feature new enough that I was there when it was added
20:06:02 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway about archive being deleted by mistake, that mean some with direct sql access and missing backups?
20:08:07 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it was lost in a crash
20:08:18 <AnMaster> ais523, missing backups then
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21:47:51 <oerjan> i don't think (h) belongs there. the others actually happen regularly. (h) fortunately does not.
21:48:26 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) 4chan.
21:48:32 <ehird> Now it more accurately represents this place.
21:48:45 <AnMaster> what was it before?
21:48:54 <oerjan> hm i haven't really noticed much 4chan. reddit, however...
21:48:55 <ehird> a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The Freshmaker!
21:49:04 <ehird> reddit is a copy of 4chan a year ago :p
21:49:09 <ehird> Slereah is responsible for most of the 4chan tbh
21:49:14 <oerjan> ah
21:49:19 <ehird> but I have my suspicions about some people around here.
21:49:24 <oerjan> i may not recognize it...
21:49:38 <AnMaster> what about esoteric languages?
21:49:44 <AnMaster> they *do* happen sometimes
21:49:52 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-k9C3v9Ng0
21:49:56 <ehird> AnMaster: no
21:50:00 <ehird> that is explicitly not an element of this place
21:50:06 <oerjan> (d) and (g) cover that somewhat
21:50:06 <ehird> and basically the whole joke of the topic
21:50:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, ick, ccbi and so on
21:50:14 <ehird> those are just convenient links, oerjan
21:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: no. esolangs is not a topic discussed here.
21:51:07 * oerjan shouldn't complain, given how many times he's reverted people trying to remove perl from the wiki :D
21:51:38 * AnMaster wants a complete collection of Mozart, wonder how many CDs it would fill...
21:51:44 <ehird> AnMaster: too many.
21:51:53 <ehird> also, you'd never be able to listen to it all. probably.
21:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I listen to about 1 classical music CD / day
21:52:20 <ehird> I bet mozart would fill like 50 bajillion cds :-P
21:52:28 <ehird> Assuming we're talking everything mozart ever wrote.
21:52:30 <oerjan> i expect you could get Oz/Mozart on a single CD ;D
21:52:41 <AnMaster> Oz/Mozart?
21:52:46 <ehird> oerjan: man
21:52:48 <ehird> that was awful
21:52:50 <ehird> even for you
21:52:56 <ehird> i mean, raelly
21:52:56 <AnMaster> it was a joke?
21:52:58 <ehird> it wasn't even funny
21:52:58 <ehird> jesus
21:53:01 <AnMaster> I didn't understand it
21:53:02 <AnMaster> ...
21:53:04 <oerjan> yay :D
21:53:10 <ehird> AnMaster: letmegooglethatforyou.com
21:53:11 <AnMaster> so
21:53:24 <AnMaster> "The Mozart Programming System"?
21:53:27 <AnMaster> first hit
21:53:30 <ehird> no. some other oz/mozart.
21:53:31 <ehird> duh.
21:53:50 <oerjan> indeed
21:54:02 <AnMaster> sarcasm detected
21:54:12 <ehird> wow, you actually have a sarcasm detector
21:54:17 <ehird> now that's legitimately surprising :D
21:54:24 <oerjan> ehird: he _is_ slowly improving you know
21:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't very sensitive
21:54:50 <oerjan> a couple more years on #esoteric and AnMaster could start doing standup
21:54:58 <ehird> that's a bit optimistic
21:55:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, no thanks, I wouldn't want that
21:55:17 <ehird> GregorR: holy shit that video is depressing.
21:55:20 <AnMaster> + I have "scenskräck", don't know English word
21:55:22 <ehird> and I'm only 2:30 in.
21:55:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Scene crack?
21:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird, nop
21:55:34 <ehird> Sense crack?
21:55:45 <GregorR> ehird: I know X-D
21:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, as in scared to be in front of a large audience
21:55:54 <GregorR> ehird: It's so well done in a horrible, horrible way.
21:55:57 <ehird> GregorR: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME
21:56:18 <AnMaster> what is the English term?
21:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think there is one
21:56:50 <AnMaster> wtf
21:57:00 <oerjan> agoraphobia is related
21:57:03 <oerjan> but not quite
21:57:30 <AnMaster> haha at google translate "scene of horror" <--- no. not at all
21:57:40 <ehird> GregorR: oh my god. I think you just ruined my life forever.
21:57:45 <ehird> I hate you.
21:57:47 <ehird> :(
21:57:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well right I'm not going to watch that video then
21:58:00 <GregorR> X-D
21:58:03 <ehird> AnMaster: It's about a cartoon rabbit. He dies.
21:58:17 <AnMaster> oh, doesn't sound too bad, unless it is bloody
21:58:31 <Slereah> Watch Watership Down then
21:58:34 <Slereah> :D
21:58:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It will ruin your life forever.
21:58:57 <AnMaster> Slereah, I explicitly don't trust what you say. ever.
21:59:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's not bloody, it's not even violent.
21:59:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's just really, really sad :P
21:59:35 <AnMaster> well too much work using youtube-dl and so on
21:59:43 <Slereah> AnMaster : You should
21:59:48 <ehird> You are safe, AnMaster.
21:59:49 <Slereah> 'cause Watership Down is totally awesome
21:59:52 <ehird> You can still feel happiness.
22:00:03 <ehird> Shed a tear for those lost to that video.
22:00:12 <AnMaster> also, have anyone here ever heard about the composer Kraus before?
22:00:14 <AnMaster> Just wondering
22:00:18 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watership_Down_(film)
22:00:42 <oerjan> ooh found it: "stage fright"
22:01:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that sounds right
22:01:40 <ehird> You know, I think I support internet censorship. We need to protect the human race from that video.
22:02:04 * oerjan searched http://phobialist.com/ . it was not a keyword, but part of a description.
22:02:28 <FireFly> Phobophobia- Fear of phobias.
22:02:30 <ehird> "Use Manipulative Psychology to Make People Like, Respect, and Befriend You"
22:02:42 <ehird> -http://www.thepopularlife.com
22:02:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch, don't you see, the pro-censor people made this to make people want to censor the internet
22:02:47 <AnMaster> clearly
22:02:54 <AnMaster> so devilish!
22:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: It destroys lives. We cannot accept this.
22:03:02 <ehird> Think of the goddamn children. :'(
22:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well their parents shouldn't let them enter on youtube
22:03:35 <AnMaster> parent control thing you know ;P
22:03:40 <ehird> I think compared to that video the rest of youtube is fine by me :P
22:03:43 <AnMaster> I think up until 15 maybe
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22:03:50 <ehird> I'm only glad I didn't click the HD version
22:03:53 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:03:58 <ehird> I think the high quality would have destroyed my brain
22:04:05 <ehird> On the other hand, that's better than my permanent torment.
22:04:23 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Phobophobia- Fear of phobias. <-- does that exist?
22:04:40 <ehird> Metaphobia.
22:04:45 <FireFly> It says in the list on that page
22:04:49 <AnMaster> oh ok
22:05:04 <AnMaster> what about a phobia against not having a complete list of phobias?
22:05:48 <ehird> Nothavingacompletelistofphobiasphhobia
22:05:52 <ehird> *Nothavingacompletelistofphobiasphobia
22:06:08 <AnMaster> something like that probably yes
22:06:16 <AnMaster> but too English
22:06:23 <AnMaster> you want Latin and/or Greek
22:06:24 <AnMaster> oh wait
22:06:34 <AnMaster> Google translate to the rescue!
22:07:32 <AnMaster> guess it doesn't have latin
22:08:20 <FireFly> It has greek, but it gives you greek letters (how surprising)
22:09:02 <AnMaster> FireFly, and that is modern greek I believe
22:09:12 * oerjan invents apanphobophobia
22:09:18 <ehird> swatterphobi
22:09:18 <FireFly> Could be, I know.. 0 greek
22:09:19 <ehird> a
22:09:53 <oerjan> a = not, pan = all
22:10:10 <kerlo> We should use lojban affixes to make these.
22:11:06 <kerlo> Fear of dogs, ge'uphobia. Fear of abruptness, suksyphobia. Fear of milk, ladryphobia.
22:11:28 <GregorR> Apandaphobia = not basing your entire life on fear or something :P (Not all from fear)
22:12:07 <oerjan> is da greek?
22:12:17 <GregorR> It's a corruption of "de" :P
22:12:33 <oerjan> is de greek?
22:12:53 <GregorR> Just because "phobia" is greek doesn't mean the prefix can't be latin, we're not speaking either.
22:13:07 <ehird> Pandaphobia = fear of pandas
22:13:14 <ehird> GregorR's is therefore fear of a lack of pandas
22:13:23 <FireFly> Apandaphobia = fear of no pandas ?
22:13:24 <GregorR> NUH UH
22:13:26 <oerjan> i was just about to claim that
22:13:27 <kerlo> Dyspandaphobia: fear of difficulty with pandas.
22:13:29 <GregorR> It's the lack of the fear of pandas :P
22:13:33 <FireFly> Bleh
22:13:39 <kerlo> Actually, I was--yes, what GregorR said.
22:13:54 <oerjan> pandanandaphobia
22:14:06 <ehird> Panda NAND a phobia
22:14:07 <GregorR> Bandabananaphobia
22:14:10 <kerlo> So you're about to say something, when someone else says something similar, and then another person says they were about to say the same thing, and then another person says they were about to say the thing you were about to say.
22:14:13 <ehird> sounds like a surrealist programming comic.
22:14:35 <kerlo> badnyphobia, fear of bananas.
22:14:50 <GregorR> And/or bad nys.
22:14:52 <oerjan> kerlo: clearly it was an idea whose time was come
22:15:40 <oerjan> badny? is that more lojban?
22:15:42 <kerlo> xralisphobia, fear of comic strips.
22:15:46 <kerlo> badny is lojban, yes.
22:16:17 <GregorR> Englishprefixaphobia, fear of words with prefixes from English (rather than Greek or Latin)
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22:18:15 <GregorR> Calorimeteraphobia: Fear of words formed from irrelevant roots or prefixes.
22:18:43 <FireFly> Lojbanophobia, self explaining
22:18:55 <GregorR> Fear of large bananas, of course.
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22:19:03 <kerlo> You mean gicli'erafyphobia.
22:19:18 <kerlo> (English-precede-affix-phobia.)
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22:20:00 <kerlo> And you mean jbophobia, of course, jbo being the lojban affix. :-P
22:20:47 <GregorR> Phobaphobaphobaphobaphobia: Fear of the fear of the fear of fear of fear.
22:21:33 <AnMaster> <oerjan> is de greek? .de is German....
22:21:49 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
22:22:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, it went right through without hitting anything
22:22:37 <oerjan> rooseveltophobia: the fear of nothing but fear itself
22:22:49 <ehird> GregorR: The only thing to fear is the fear of the fear of the fear of the fear of fear itself.
22:22:50 <ehird> dammit oerjan
22:23:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, um what? wouldn't it be the fear of meeting roosevelt?
22:23:15 <ehird> FAIL
22:23:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: Nej, han är ju død.
22:23:29 <ehird> that's a roosevelt quote
22:23:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, ja, jag skulle nog vara rädd att möta honom just därför!
22:24:21 <kerlo> Fear of the fear of fear of fear of the fear of fear of the fear of the fear of fear of inconsistency.
22:24:37 <AnMaster> I suggest a notation for that
22:24:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: you're supposed to say "Men han rör ju på sej!"
22:24:52 <AnMaster> you have basic phobias, I mean fear of snakes, fear or whatever
22:25:05 <AnMaster> then you have fear of fear of snakes, and so on
22:25:07 <AnMaster> this would be:
22:25:09 <kerlo> Sing it to the tune of "Clocks" by Coldplay: fear of the fear of the fear of fear of the fear of the fear of...
22:25:13 <ehird> It's called language, AnMaster
22:25:13 <AnMaster> <whatever>phobia^2
22:25:16 <FireFly> Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia — fear of the number 666.
22:25:24 <ehird> kerlo: That would involve listening to Coldplay.
22:25:28 <ehird> I really don't want to do that.
22:25:42 <oerjan> actually phobophobophobophobia _clearly_ means fear of recursion
22:26:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and fear of fear of recursion is?
22:26:16 <kerlo> Much simpler in lojban: xavyxavyxavyphobia = fear of 666.
22:26:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: too horrible to contemplate.
22:26:27 <AnMaster> oerjan: psykfall
22:26:29 <ehird> Lojban uses decimal. Why. :(
22:26:35 <AnMaster> if that is readable in no
22:26:36 <kerlo> It doesn't have to use decimal.
22:26:38 <AnMaster> .no*
22:26:47 <kerlo> I think decimal is default, but xa can be 6 in any base.
22:26:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: no idea what psykfall means
22:26:54 <kerlo> It even has words for the digits A-F.
22:26:57 <ehird> Decimal sux diks
22:27:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it is slang.... "nutjob" I believe the English slang would be
22:27:48 <oerjan> candlejackpho
22:27:50 <AnMaster> actually no
22:28:07 <ehird> oerjan: haha
22:28:09 <AnMaster> psykfall implies someone locked in too
22:28:23 <AnMaster> I mean, VERY much nutjob
22:28:28 <bsmntbombgirl> how do you do pure function O(1) dictionaries?
22:28:48 <kerlo> nagjibyphobia, fear of nut jobs.
22:29:06 <BeholdMyGlory> Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia- Fear of long words.
22:29:10 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: by implementing trivial pattern matching as a hash table
22:29:21 <bsmntbombgirl> ?
22:29:35 <AnMaster> bsmntbombgirl, with a perfect hash I guess
22:29:51 <kerlo> I believe gainovaivaireirei ju'u paxa is lojban for 0xC0FFEE.
22:30:33 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: as in
22:30:40 <ehird> f 0 = 1; f 1 = 45345345; f 2 = 892748396;
22:30:48 <ehird> should be implemented as a hash table from {0:1,...} in the lang
22:31:09 <bsmntbombgirl> well that doesn't work
22:31:13 <ehird> why not
22:31:57 <bsmntbombgirl> what's the table containing all the values from 1 to n, n determined at runtime
22:32:15 <ehird> lazy evaluation :P
22:32:41 <Asztal> ehird: what would you use, sexagesimal?
22:32:49 <kerlo> Say, have there been attempts to interpret the nick "kerlo" as a subtle hint that I'm a transwoman?
22:32:58 <ehird> kerlo: I think so.
22:33:04 <ehird> Asztal: duodecimal or something. It's meant to be perfect :-P
22:33:38 <Asztal> oh, 12 is good too
22:33:58 <AnMaster> kerlo, um? I googled the nick just now and first hit was some starwars wiki
22:34:30 <AnMaster> no I don't see what you mean
22:35:00 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:35:01 <AnMaster> night
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22:46:46 <kerlo> Consensus is that the nick "Warrigal" was by far the most explicit.
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23:39:06 <ehird> WHAT THE CHRIST. [[WP:DICK]] was turned into a soft redirect.
23:39:07 <ehird> Fuckers
23:43:55 <oerjan> you mean it went soft?
23:45:42 <ehird> groan
23:53:58 <ehird> http://svn.python.org/view?rev=68924&view=rev OH YEAH.
23:54:01 <ehird> OH FUCKING YEAH.
23:54:26 <ehird> Or rather, still slow :-P BUT STILL
23:55:11 <FireFly> An Exception Has Occurred
23:55:12 <FireFly> Python Traceback
23:55:15 <FireFly> [stuff]
23:55:24 <ehird> WFM
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