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00:21:23 <ehird> <RodgerTheGreat> the halting problem can be solved trivially on a machne without time or memory constraints
00:22:35 <ehird> he then clarifies that he was talking about an FSM.
00:22:43 <ehird> because it's not as if the halting problem refers to turing machines or anything.
00:23:50 <ehird> no, because "halting problem" means "turing machine halting problem"
00:24:01 <ehird> since ther eis no such problem on a FSM
00:24:57 <ehird> sure, halt-checking an FSM on a turing machine is trivial.
00:25:02 <ehird> you just check for repeated states.
00:25:38 <ehird> I was talking about FSMs.
00:27:34 <oerjan> ehird: actually the halting problem for lower complexity classes is somewhat important. for one thing, it gives an easy way to prove that there _are_ an infinite hierarchy of such classes.
00:27:48 <ehird> oerjan: we were discussing turing machine halting problems at the time, tho.
00:30:39 <oerjan> not sure, i'm not used to think of those as potentially non-halting
00:33:59 <oerjan> since they are usually combined with parsing, for which the important thing is which languages they recognize
00:34:27 <oerjan> any non-halting would have to happen _between_ two input chars (or at the ends)
00:37:39 <oerjan> the recognized languages are context-free, so contained in the context-sensitive ones, which can be recognized in linear space
00:39:32 <oerjan> if you can do that on the level of computation, then a little more than linear space should be sufficient to solve the halting problem.
00:42:40 <oerjan> http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~gurari/theory-bk/theory-bk-threese6.html: "Theorem 3.6.3 The halting problem is decidable for pushdown automata."
00:46:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombgirl: so apparently, yes
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01:04:23 <oerjan> (non-deterministic pda)
01:06:32 <oerjan> well befunge without self-modification
01:07:36 <bsmntbombgirl> because it would be interesting to see how useful a language for which the halting problem is solvable is
01:08:45 <oerjan> oh and no deep stack operations in case befunge has that (i forget)
01:10:42 <oerjan> i don't think you could use it to add two bignums in ordinary decimal notation, say
01:11:22 <oerjan> although bizarrely if you reversed the second number, you could print the reverse result :D
01:11:53 <oerjan> won't work for multiplication though
01:17:13 <bsmntbombgirl> because the halting problem is still solvable there
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02:33:40 <GregorR> Kipple is a PDA if you only use one stack :P
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10:26:00 <oklopol> possible? no. happened? fuck yeah.
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11:25:19 <ehird> <pikhq> SimonRC: You've just commited a grave logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Paul Graham.
11:41:48 <ehird> You will be happier not knowing.
11:43:46 <Slereah2> "Paul Graham (born 1964) is a programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist, known for his work on Lisp."
11:46:08 <ehird> It's kind of complicated.
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12:55:48 <ehird> 10:56:12 <oklokok> "I enjoy doing thing spontaneously." <<< thing is a character in addam's family
12:55:48 <ehird> 10:56:19 <oklokok> it's a hand10:56:24 <oklokok> does this refer to masturbation?
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17:13:26 <impomatic> ^bf ++++++++++++++[>>+>++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]>>>>>[+++<]>-.>>.+++++++..+++.>>++.<+.<<.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
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17:16:50 <ehird> impomatic: i think that's longer than it could be
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17:18:28 <Hiato> Does anyone have an intricate understanding of FAT12+[N/Y/F]ASM here?
17:19:05 <ais523> Hiato: FAT12 sounds like a 12-bit filesystem
17:19:13 <ais523> presumably it isn't that
17:19:44 <Hiato> nope, shouldn't think so.. Personally I have no actual clue, just did the ole "copy-n-paste" and it failed me
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17:21:47 <impomatic> It's 12 bit, I wrote code to read files from it about 15 years ago
17:22:06 <impomatic> But I wouldn't be much help. I only read it, never tried to manipulate it
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17:25:05 <Hiato> Well, it's a start, so if you dig it up that would be nice :)
17:25:24 <Hiato> I think the write code is fine, but I can't test it until I can read :P
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19:55:21 <impomatic> ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>>.+++.------.<-.>>+.
19:55:46 <ais523> triple-nested loops in a BF hello world?
19:55:48 <ais523> I don't see that often
19:56:43 <oklopol> we should make a <=50 character hello world
19:57:01 <impomatic> Yeah, shame it's 107 instructions and not <106
19:57:16 <ehird> you can shave off an instruction
19:57:26 <ehird> ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>.+++.------.<-.>>+.
19:58:08 <ehird> anyway it isn't even a correct program right now
19:58:11 <ehird> the w should be lowercase
19:58:14 <ehird> does it do newlines?
19:58:18 <ehird> ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++>+++>+++>++>+++<<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>>-.<++.<<<---.>>.+++.------.<-.>>+
19:58:33 <ais523> ehird: there are all sorts of debates about the exact spelling and punctuation of hello world
19:58:48 <ehird> Hello, world!\n is the most common for human-written ones as far as I can se
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19:59:45 <impomatic> I've seen "Hello, World!", "Hello World!\n" and "Hello, world!"
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20:00:02 <ehird> without newline is just a bug
20:00:11 <ehird> since it will fail on any correct console interpreter
20:00:16 <impomatic> I'm working on "Hello, World!" because that's the example someone showed me
20:00:28 <ehird> I'd go for Hello, world!\n
20:00:32 <ehird> just a change of case and one new char
20:02:20 <GregorR> I would go with Greetings, personified globular iron construct orbiting sol!\r
20:02:40 <ehird> he's been here days
20:02:46 <ais523> only a few days, though
20:03:30 <ehird> psygnisfive_: you're new too :p
20:04:32 <psygnisfive_> also, im pretty sure i was actually first here in like
20:04:41 <ehird> I grepped for both augur and psygnisfive
20:05:25 <ehird> for the record: I first joined 2006-12-29, left like 20 seconds after, next joined (and spoke and stuff) 2007-05-14
20:06:26 <ehird> then you were here as a ghost.
20:06:28 <ehird> what was your nick
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20:06:48 <psygnisfive_> dude, thats after your first reported sighting of me :P
20:07:02 <ehird> that's your first join as augur
20:07:10 <ehird> you first joined as augur
20:07:16 <ehird> then on the 27th as psygnisfive
20:07:19 <ehird> 08.05.27:07:36:40 --- nick: augur -> psygnisfive
20:08:55 <psygnisfive_> so from the 16th to the 19th i was using mibbit for irc i guess
20:09:07 <ehird> guys, remember faxasthisia? he was cool
20:09:25 <ehird> why did he fall off the face of the earth?
20:09:26 <ais523> although not what they were like
20:09:49 <oklopol> i remember the nick, and that there was something worth remembering about it, but i don't remember what it was.
20:10:05 <oklopol> oh wait is it just that he *may have been* the guy who knew j.
20:11:06 <ehird> he was last here 38 weeks ago
20:11:50 <ehird> wow, someone has a text file of ridiculous faxathisia quotes.
20:11:52 <ehird> http://ross.fappett.com/misc/fax.txt
20:11:56 <ehird> he never acted like that in here :P
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20:17:56 <ehird> Faxathisia is dead. RIP.
20:19:29 <oklopol> lol some of those were pretty funny
20:19:58 <ehird> FAXATHISIA IF YOU BE READING THIS COME BACK K
20:20:34 <ehird> http://fax.twilightcoders.net/ Site of a dead man
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20:22:43 <ehird> http://fax.twilightcoders.net/AquaBreakout/ Cute
20:23:00 <ais523> a polyglot binary that ran on lots of different OSs and architectures could be interesting
20:23:07 <ais523> but probably impossible due to the way ELF headers work
20:23:09 <psygnisfive_> i think i shall start working on an actual interpreter for my language. :T
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20:38:17 <impomatic> psygnisfive_: new here, not new to esoteric languages :-)
20:39:59 <ehird> i kind of doubt that
20:40:38 <psygnisfive_> i mean, its not like i marked it in my calendar, you know, but
20:41:19 <psygnisfive_> i think i first discovered esolangs in yahoo's directories
20:41:40 <psygnisfive_> this was before wikipedia was what it is now, obviously
20:42:02 <ehird> wikipedia started in 2001.
20:42:11 <ehird> your lies are revealed!
20:42:16 <psygnisfive_> yeah, but i didnt know about it until like .. 2002?
20:42:32 <ehird> thats not what you asid
20:42:38 <ehird> you said before wikipedia was what it was now
20:42:46 <oklopol> i probably learned about wp in like 2007
20:42:48 <ehird> thus implying the existance of wikipedia
20:42:58 <ehird> or you would have just said, before wikipedia
20:43:01 <ehird> ergo, not 10 years
20:43:16 <psygnisfive_> i actually thought wikipedia started in the late 90s
20:43:18 <ais523> I discovered esolangs via the 99bob website
20:43:25 <ais523> and esolangs.org via Wikipedia via google
20:43:37 <ais523> and #esoteric via esolangs.org
20:43:53 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure "before wp was what it is now" meant wikipedia didn't exist, with the additional "don't make smart-ass comments about it somehow technically existing in some form"
20:44:00 <ehird> ais523: but I thought you could do without google.
20:44:08 <ais523> I can nowadays, mostly
20:44:18 <ais523> this was back before I was very internet-savvy
20:44:24 <ais523> I didn't even know about IRC or Usenet back then
20:44:50 <ehird> umm, 1992 wasn't it
20:44:56 <impomatic> I started playing with esolangs in 1993.
20:45:04 <ehird> redcode counts, impomatic
20:45:08 <ehird> so when did you start then
20:45:09 <ais523> redcode's more an interesting variant of asm
20:45:26 <ais523> and asm would be an esolang if it wasn't so widespread
20:46:00 <ehird> all this only proves that your definition of esolangs is needlessly vague and wide-spanning, ais523
20:46:38 <psygnisfive_> since my definition is needlessly specific and narrow-spanning
20:47:24 <oklopol> NARROW NARROW NARROW IT DOWN, GENTLY DOWN THE STREAM
20:49:21 <oklopol> lol i wasn't even alive in 91 :\
20:49:25 <impomatic> My modem is apparently not connected?
20:49:28 <ehird> oklopol: nor I :-D
20:49:31 <ehird> impomatic: i hear you
20:49:46 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNGUNS.
20:49:48 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNG UNS.
20:50:03 <ehird> that is why i added the space
20:50:03 <oklopol> that's much worse than eurocreme...
20:50:34 <impomatic> oklopol: You're making me feel old!
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20:54:38 <ehird> I don't think we need to know, psygnisfive_
20:56:18 <oklopol> was just about to ask "what are those", but i guess ehird is right
20:56:29 <ehird> 20:50 ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) Felching – The 4chanmaker!; i) YOUNG UNS
20:56:44 <ais523> I think it's time for a new topic
20:56:56 <ehird> so does GregorR, since he's added to it.
20:57:02 <ehird> also, i didn't even originate it, you did
20:57:08 <ehird> the first three items are yours
20:57:09 <ais523> it's just got out of control
20:57:16 <ehird> it's not that long
20:57:23 <ehird> remove up to the end of the wiki link, I guess
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21:05:30 <GregorR> Awww, but you shouldn't have removed imne :(
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21:12:18 <impomatic> Anyone here got a programming blog?
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21:22:52 <Judofyr> impomatic: http://judofyr.net
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21:27:48 <ais523> Judofyr: about that tail-call optimisation
21:27:55 <ais523> why doesn't Ruby have that tail-recursion operator from Perl?
21:28:12 <ais523> it's one of my favourites!
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21:43:04 * ehird blogs, but doesn't atm. :-P
21:43:59 <oklopol> i can't blog, because i dislike the term :<
21:45:48 * ehird bookmarks http://vjn.fi/oklopol/og/ pre-emptively
21:46:17 <oklopol> guess i could og my reading diary....... that would pretty much sum up my life.
21:46:27 <oklopol> that is, publish thems.rtf.
21:46:46 <ehird> i would totally pay you to maintain an html page with date-attached oko towers and reading log entries.
21:46:53 <ehird> it'd be like. the oko shrine
21:47:00 <ehird> the ogo shrine hur hur
21:47:22 <oklopol> yeah, maybe it could be an og about oko.
21:47:37 <oklopol> liek jib down the oko aspects of my life.
21:48:40 <ehird> 2009-01-26<br>Today I made an oko so big it crashed the IRC server.<br><br>
21:49:09 <ais523> crashing Freenode with an oko would be impressive
21:49:15 <ais523> it would effectively have to be a DDOS oko
21:49:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you should stop provoking me to give you the full rant on why XHTML lovers are idiots.
21:50:02 <ais523> ehird: that common maxim that you keep quoting, I suspect is dangerous
21:50:09 <AnMaster> ehird, simple: If I loved html you would love xhtml instead ;P
21:50:27 <ais523> if everyone's being liberal in what they accept, then people with an agenda can be liberal in what they produce
21:50:40 <ehird> AnMaster: fun fact: I have had opinions before I unfortunately met you.
21:50:47 <ais523> in XHTML, it's the people who don't know what they're doing that look like idiots
21:50:49 <ehird> ais523: Postel's Law isn't the whole argument by far.
21:51:00 <ehird> Also, people with an agenda being liberal in what they produce...
21:51:03 <ehird> will change what, exactly?
21:52:17 <ais523> it will change the standard
21:52:25 <ais523> as other people will have to conform to their liberal productions
21:52:31 <ais523> rather than other people's liberal prodcutions
21:52:59 <ehird> You misunderstand Postel's Law, but I'm not having this conversation atm.
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21:56:07 <oklopol> can you translate that, i do not understand natural language.
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22:02:56 <ehird> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Uncyclopedia:An_Appeal_From_Uncyclopedia_Mother%2C_Codeine%27s_Mum
22:04:12 <ais523> %27 is apostrophe, IIRC
22:09:29 <Slereah> Don't go to uncyclopedia, ehird
22:09:46 <ehird> the idiot m p darke linked to it. But I found the linked article, linked to in the header of the linked article, funny.
22:09:52 <ehird> was that sufficiently confusing
22:10:03 <ais523> I think one of the only times I went to Uncyclopedia was because someone had copied one of their articles over to Wikipedia
22:10:22 <ais523> and people kept removing deletion tags from it
22:10:37 <ais523> so I marked it copyvio
22:10:51 <ais523> yay for incompatible licences
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22:43:26 <oerjan> <Slereah2> "Paul Graham (born 1964) is a programmer, venture capitalist, and essayist, known for his work on Lisp."
22:43:39 <oerjan> <Slereah2> Why is he so terrible
22:43:59 <oerjan> iiuc he is essentially a lisp fundamentalist
22:44:26 <ehird> he's just an idiot
22:44:27 <oerjan> although i haven't paid that much attention to him
22:45:46 <oerjan> ehird: i _might_ claim that follows as a consequence, if he is a fundamentalist
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22:47:06 <oerjan> s/fundamentalist/fanatic/ if the first word doesn't actually fit
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23:13:35 <ehird> 0xFF bottles of beer on the wall
23:13:37 <ehird> 0xFF bottles of beer
23:13:39 <ehird> Take one down, two's complement it
23:14:50 <oerjan> or is there a size problem?
23:15:25 <oerjan> and how do we reverse entropy?
23:15:38 <oerjan> (last one thrown in just in case)
23:15:57 <GregorR> ... "two's complement" is not a verb ...
23:16:13 <oerjan> i think it verbs just fine
23:16:34 <GregorR> Then what does it mean? There's no action that's "two's complement"ing a ... number? Stream of bits?
23:18:41 <oerjan> it whats a meaning of calculating the two's complement. stop complainingly mindlessing.
23:19:30 <oerjan> probably in-placing it, too
23:24:11 <ehird> GregorR: I don't care, it amuses me.
23:24:19 <ehird> (It's from the 2007 logs, said by me)
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23:57:38 <oklopol> GregorR: i think you just lack a skill in an english.
23:58:04 <oerjan> oklopol: i sentiment exactly
23:58:30 <oklopol> i think i should probably book a read
23:58:52 <oerjan> also, since finnish doesn't have articles, would those be reasonable mistakes for a finn to make?
23:58:54 <ehird> concatenative languages are awesome