00:01:12 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so any idea about the sysinfo one
00:02:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, sure that is wrong?
00:02:23 <AnMaster> and if so, what did you do differently from mycology
00:06:00 <lifthrasiir> i thought that "the least point which contains a non-space cell" and "the greatest point which contains a non-space cell" means a boundary of smallest rectangle containing every non-space cells
00:06:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it is relative the least point
00:07:00 <AnMaster> I track absolute coordinates internally (for wrapping, which is more common than y). And diff then at y
00:07:28 <AnMaster> it was a build without exact bounds
00:07:30 <lifthrasiir> and then <1,27> is leftmost, <92,25> is rightmost, <2,0> is topmost and <83,42> is bottommost; the least point within rectangle is <1,0> and the greatest point is <92,42> (which offset is <91,42> wrt least point)
00:07:52 <AnMaster> with exact bounds I get the same message
00:08:25 <lifthrasiir> i think you are pushing the past-to-the-greatest point, not the greatest point within the rectangle
00:08:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, err what? You mean I'm doing absolute coordinates instead of relative ones?
00:09:56 <lifthrasiir> for example, assume that the rectangle bounds the code is 7 columns wide and 3 rows high; what i mean is you are pushing <x,y> and <x+7,y+3>, not <x,y> and <x+6,y+2>
00:10:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why do I get correct results in mycology then?
00:10:32 <lifthrasiir> but i'm not sure, cfunge passed mycology and it can be other issues
00:10:52 <AnMaster> maybe off by one error somewhere?
00:11:24 <lifthrasiir> i assumed it, but then it should be appeared conditionally, which is quite hard to achieve i think
00:11:28 <AnMaster> it was off by more than that wasn't it?
00:12:10 <lifthrasiir> oh well, yes, it is off by _two_ in x coordinate
00:12:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, mycology writes to -1 too.
00:13:37 <AnMaster> I used to have conditional off by one errors ages ago. Dependant on mycology writing to -1,-1. But that was fixed.
00:14:09 <lifthrasiir> but it pushed correct least point... cannot think of possible causes
00:16:40 <AnMaster> there are more than 42 lines in it
00:16:58 <lifthrasiir> but the last line is newline, so that doesn't matter
00:17:11 <ehird> 15:10:20 <AnMaster> yes it was. Sad thing is it spread outside kernel development.
00:17:17 <ehird> Goddamn you're an idiot.
00:18:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, however editor says there are 93 columns. Meaning 92 when 0-based
00:18:37 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so not sure where you got 91 from+
00:18:47 <AnMaster> oh right. spaces in first one too
00:20:20 <AnMaster> $1 = {topLeftCorner = {x = 1, y = 0}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 92, y = 42}, entries = 0x2039010, col_count = 0x2039050, row_count = 0x2039090,
00:20:20 <AnMaster> boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true}
00:20:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is absolute values
00:21:56 <lifthrasiir> rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1;
00:21:57 <lifthrasiir> rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1;
00:22:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, but that +1 is correct iirc.
00:22:23 <lifthrasiir> of course sysinfo.c should be wrong, anyway
00:22:35 <AnMaster> stack_push(pushStack, rect.x+rect.w);
00:24:04 <lifthrasiir> but fungespace_get_bounds_rect returns width and height
00:24:34 <lifthrasiir> so <x+w,y+h> is exclusive bound, and <x+w-1,y+h-1> is inclusive bound
00:24:51 <lifthrasiir> and clearly fspace.bottomRightCorner IS inclusive
00:25:47 <AnMaster> if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.x < position->x)
00:25:47 <AnMaster> fspace.bottomRightCorner.x = position->x;
00:25:54 <AnMaster> if (fspace.bottomRightCorner.y < position->y)
00:25:54 <AnMaster> fspace.bottomRightCorner.y = position->y;
00:26:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is true. it is the bounding box
00:26:42 <AnMaster> it isn't the position of the spaces around
00:26:51 <lifthrasiir> so it pushed exclusive bounds AND absolute coordinates. in fact there were two bugs ;)
00:27:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, no, not absolute ones. It pushed something else instead.
00:28:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, removing the +1 and fixing the other bit helped indeed.
00:28:47 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so this managed to be right for mycology because it wrote to -1 right?
00:29:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant should really use -2,-2
00:29:38 <lifthrasiir> anyway x and y should be different, for stupid cases
00:31:31 <AnMaster> it just hung before when using fungy/fungi
00:31:47 <AnMaster> and I was unable to figure out why
00:32:13 <lifthrasiir> maybe i should make sysinfo.b98 prints actual printed value.
00:32:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is what is missing in mycology a lot of the time
00:32:50 <lifthrasiir> mycology is too huge, which means tracing is a lot harder
00:33:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I don't know for python. But at least C is quite easy to get it with, with gdb
00:33:43 <AnMaster> especially in the concurrent sections.
00:33:50 <lifthrasiir> so if you get some BAD, how to get near to the problematic commands?
00:34:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well I search for the string, both reversed and not reversed to find out x,y coordinates.
00:35:02 <lifthrasiir> but sometimes the string is placed vertically, or even splitted ;)
00:35:05 <AnMaster> then use brkcell defined in .gdbinit
00:35:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, for split, search for one word
00:35:57 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, unless it is possible to find anyway, I know how the fingerprints are located
00:36:04 <AnMaster> and I'm way past core bugs nowdays.
00:36:22 <AnMaster> new fingerprints tend to be where the problem is
00:36:54 <AnMaster> break execute_instruction if (ip->position.x == $arg0) && (ip->position.y == $arg1)
00:37:01 <GregorR> cfunge isn't a different /language/, right? The command shouldn't be "cfunge" then
00:37:08 <GregorR> It should be ... befunge98?
00:37:35 <GregorR> AnMaster: To clarify, interps/<name of INTERPRETER>, hcmds/<name of LANGUAGE>
00:37:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, aha. Can you fix it yourself or should I submit a bundle with a move and commit in as well?
00:37:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that is same to what i'm doing for pyfunge, but i think clearly separated test makes the debugging convenient
00:38:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, also you want to update cfunge to last revision. Fixed a bug in y
00:38:50 <lifthrasiir> and Deewiant will add that to his to-do list
00:39:03 <GregorR> AnMaster: Patch pweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
00:39:25 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: "change negative coordinate test to -3 -2", for example
00:39:32 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:41:09 <GregorR> Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work.
00:41:38 <GregorR> <GregorR> Y'know, if I compiled the interpreter, it may work.
00:42:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/r763.diff
00:42:11 <GregorR> There ya go. Enjoy your fungi goodiness.
00:42:16 <AnMaster> that is on the cfunge source itself
00:43:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, maybe with newline
00:43:34 <GregorR> To avoid flooding the channel, the 2nd line and further are sent to you personally.
00:43:35 <AnMaster> !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!"
00:43:41 <GregorR> So a program will only output one line here.
00:44:10 <pikhq> Not even doing rate-based antiflooding?
00:44:12 <AnMaster> I think he set up resource limit
00:44:27 <pikhq> That'd really screw up, say, daemons.
00:44:35 <AnMaster> or at least quit after 30 seconds
00:44:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, they are limited to 30 seconds
00:45:09 <GregorR> I will probably add support for daemons again some time.
00:45:23 <GregorR> !befunge98 <@,kc+2*3a"Hello world!"
00:45:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: Patch seems to work.
00:45:38 <ehird> pikhq: join my campaign for old egobot!
00:46:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, you need to update the USED_VERSION
00:46:03 <ehird> GregorR: We! Want! Real! Egobot!
00:46:16 <ehird> We! Are! Great! Avocados!
00:46:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, did you watch the configure output btw?
00:46:50 <pikhq> I'm not in favor of the old Egobot.
00:46:52 <lifthrasiir> of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p
00:47:01 <ehird> pikhq: Well you should be.
00:47:04 <pikhq> I'm in favor of the new Egobot achieving feature parity with old Egobot.
00:47:07 <GregorR> AnMaster: Not really in that I didn't watch it.
00:47:18 <pikhq> (except for the crashing "feature")
00:47:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, it checks lots of -W flags for GCC
00:47:52 <AnMaster> I think it gave ehird an heart attach
00:48:05 * GregorR attaches to ehird's heart.
00:48:27 <pikhq> ... GCC lets you write to strings?
00:48:37 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> of course that should be 2, but i wonder that should be unefunge98.. :p <-- it can do urls too
00:48:40 <GregorR> pikhq: That's correct (although bad) C.
00:48:41 <pikhq> It lets you write to freaking const char *'s?
00:48:51 <pikhq> GregorR: I thought in C99, they were const.
00:48:54 <GregorR> pikhq: No, it doesn't let you write to const char *
00:49:17 <GregorR> pikhq: Think of this situation: You have a global char *stringbuffer = "foobarf";
00:49:21 <GregorR> Then you change that in place.
00:49:26 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: pack mycology in one line, along with the small unpacker code which puts mycology and removes itself
00:49:40 <AnMaster> point is you don't get a warning without -Wwrite-strings
00:50:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, what was the url syntax
00:50:27 <AnMaster> just? !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
00:50:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, how do you write a befunge program that is also a valid url then
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00:50:53 <lifthrasiir> so it starts with h, which reflects in befunge-98?
00:51:06 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes used for g too
00:51:14 <AnMaster> to combine something to get from
00:51:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wrote g@ to output a g once
00:51:37 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
00:52:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, can you tell me why that didn't do anything
00:52:35 <lifthrasiir> if SOCK is enabled i'll implement HTTP client in befunge.
00:52:54 <ehird> Or he isn't at your beck and call ZOMG
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00:54:07 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say he is sorry.
00:54:09 -!- GregorR has joined.
00:54:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Have fun waiting.
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00:55:26 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:55:30 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
00:55:47 <oklofog> was i gone for so long it's past again
00:56:04 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it is spamming me with it in /msg yes
00:56:49 <lifthrasiir> !befunge98 http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/raw-file/tip/tests/befunge98/sysinfo.b98
00:57:08 <EgoBot> GOOD: y seems work for at least some fields
00:57:12 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> GOOD: wraparound with non-cardinal delta appears to work
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00:59:19 <GregorR> Apparently my limiting isn't limity enough :P
00:59:42 <AnMaster> !befunge98 <StartBackdoorAndKeyLogger>@Password123@
01:00:18 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> PWD=/home/egobot/egobot/multibot_cmds
01:00:18 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games
01:00:52 <GregorR> It doesn't need to, but that's the first way I ran it, so it does now :P
01:01:30 <AnMaster> in case anything is missing there
01:01:54 <GregorR> oklofog: http://www.google.com/search?q=gnu+screen
01:01:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, the list is in src/instructions/sysinfo-misc/safe_env.gperf
01:01:56 <ehird> it makes you see everything in black and white with things like #(*$&(!&@(*
01:01:56 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:02:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, which is the source file used to generate a perfect hash for it
01:02:09 <coppro> It's like emacs without a text editor
01:02:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood).
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01:02:32 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 37 as nothing: it reflected
01:02:35 <ehird> coppro: oh so they removed the bad component?
01:02:47 <ehird> ↑ as funny as perl-is-line-noise jokes
01:02:48 -!- lifthrasiir has left (?).
01:02:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, you know how many lines of output mycology generates?
01:02:54 -!- iano has quit.
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01:03:36 <AnMaster> that is a less restricted build
01:03:40 <GregorR> I don't know why it would continue to output ...
01:03:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, socat buffers it I bet
01:03:51 <ehird> "Tags: Made Of: XML," —Debian
01:04:00 <ehird> This is a fontconfig-config sandwich.
01:04:03 <ehird> It is made of XML.
01:04:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, I mean, it finished the output in less than a tenth of a second
01:04:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, so you must be buffering it somewhere
01:04:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood).
01:04:54 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> UNDEF: 0"1234.567890"R results in 1234.567871
01:04:57 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:05:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: The process that collects the output is itself limited to 30 seconds, and the buffer oughtn't to survive the process quitting X_X
01:05:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, let it finish this one time right?
01:05:30 <GregorR> ................... if I didn't just stop it, then OK :P
01:05:36 <oklofog> hmm, i think i've actually used screen. scary.
01:05:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'll pastebin my /msg log
01:06:04 <oklofog> (i used to think it was a basic linux feature which i just didn't have enabled on mine, now i think maybe it was that)
01:06:05 <AnMaster> it seems to have made a pause now
01:06:23 <oklofog> GregorR: thank you for expanding my horizon
01:06:33 <GregorR> Nothing should be able to output right now.
01:06:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, not !help either indeed
01:06:57 <GregorR> <GregorR> Nothing should be able to output right now.
01:07:06 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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01:07:16 <GregorR> Because I was tired of it getting dropped :P
01:07:38 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, lifthrasiir http://pastebin.ca/1409033
01:08:12 <GregorR> Gracenotes: FYI, a client that tab-completes without reading the mind of the user is not buggy.
01:08:39 <GregorR> I'm going to limit it to, say, 15 lines.
01:08:42 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, and live with it. I always entered gr<tab>.
01:08:42 <Gracenotes> GregorR: my client tab completes to common prefixes
01:08:44 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
01:09:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, thank you in advance :)
01:09:22 <Gracenotes> then, G R [tab] [tab]. What have you X>_<
01:09:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, um. The pattern is in the fingers
01:09:50 <AnMaster> I used it long before you came here
01:10:03 <AnMaster> in a year or so I will get it right I guess
01:10:19 <Gracenotes> fine, muscle memory, et cetera. But I don't think it's that deeply ingrained
01:10:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, so please let it finish this time ok?
01:10:31 <Gracenotes> anyway, I won't bother you if you accidentally ping me :)
01:10:33 <GregorR> Gracenotes: I'm just THAT COOL
01:11:00 <ehird> GregorR: Gracenotes GregorR Gracenotes
01:11:45 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I had the same issue with FireFly and fizzie
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01:12:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, you changed the flood limit?
01:12:17 <AnMaster> it didn't flood off as quickly this time
01:12:25 <GregorR> AnMaster: I can't change the flood limit, that's determined by Freenode :P
01:12:32 <Gracenotes> （ ´_ゝ`） it is me! I am the one to blame
01:12:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, well... the rate limit
01:12:35 <GregorR> On Sine there's somebody called Green<something>, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P
01:12:48 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, wth is up with those ()
01:13:15 <AnMaster> that shouldn't be part of unicode
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01:13:47 <AnMaster> <GregorR> On Sine there's somebody called Green<something>, so you need four characters to tab complete us :P <-- sine?
01:14:03 <GregorR> I've already said too much.
01:14:10 <GregorR> YOU SHALL NOT KNOW THE SINE
01:14:16 <pikhq> Except that said wide parans, unlike the normal ones, are the same width as a Japanese character.
01:14:25 <AnMaster> I'm on enough of them already.
01:14:46 * Sgeo pokes ehird to tell him that I might have caused people to be interested in PSOX again
01:14:47 <AnMaster> Not a separate code point issue
01:14:53 <ehird> That place was amusing.
01:15:05 <ehird> I went there for a month or two.
01:15:07 <pikhq> Sorry, should specify. Unless there's Roman characters embedded in the Japanese text, in which case normal parens are used.
01:15:10 <GregorR> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I have a great idea! I'll use exponential backoff for the output from commands.
01:15:29 <ehird> Say the word "fuck", get put into a special channel to think about what you've done! We're so private that we came out the other side and became prudes.
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01:15:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, <EgoBot> UNDEF: N outputs 40 in base 3 as 1111
01:15:35 -!- EgoBot has joined.
01:15:49 <ehird> 01:13 AnMaster: it is a font issue
01:15:49 <ehird> 01:13 AnMaster: not a symbol issue.
01:15:51 <AnMaster> expect another 2 or 3 excess floods
01:15:52 <ehird> Completely incorrect.
01:16:05 <Sgeo> I'm the one who introduced ehird, GregorR, and kerlo to Sine
01:16:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Please stop showing your cultural ignorance. Thx.
01:16:19 <GregorR> Sgeo is the Sine gatekeeper.
01:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, why not tell me *why* I'm wrong instead.
01:16:35 <ehird> Gracenotes: tell AnMaster why he's wrong
01:16:38 <Sgeo> lifthrasiir, there are currently 24 people in the main channel
01:16:39 <ehird> lifthrasiir: 30-50 people.
01:16:44 <ehird> ... when I was there
01:16:57 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Testing fingerprint DIRF... not loaded.
01:16:57 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Testing fingerprint EVAR... not loaded.
01:16:57 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Testing fingerprint FILE... not loaded.
01:17:01 <ehird> it's a pretty crap place.
01:17:25 <lifthrasiir> i'm also operating some irc network, which is for koreans of course
01:17:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Finally, the *actual* reason for Unicode having different code-points for that...
01:17:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, you strip space at start of line?
01:17:51 <pikhq> You know Unicode's stance that you should be able to go from old-character-set -> Unicode -> old-character-set?
01:17:57 <pikhq> Yeah, JIS had different code points.
01:18:07 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood).
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01:18:31 <ehird> It makes sense theoretically.
01:18:34 <ehird> Stop being so anglocentric.
01:18:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: I don't try to, but I might accidentally.
01:18:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Eurocentric.
01:19:02 <ehird> Anythingbutjapacentric
01:19:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, well lets wait for this to finish and I will pastebin the output. And the expected output.
01:19:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, which will differ slightly since my system has different env vars
01:20:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: You should come to Purdue next year. One of our resident Swedes is moving on to a professorship and our group won't have a Swedish majority anymore :(
01:20:11 <AnMaster> and "current time" will differ.
01:20:51 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> UNDEF: YODHMS claim that the GMT time is (or was a few moments ago) 2009 - 5 - 1 00 : 08 : 44
01:20:53 <GregorR> A subset of the PL research group at Purdue under Dr. Vitek.
01:21:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: I know it buffers, I just don't know which buffer is staying alive :P
01:21:29 <ehird> "The number of cylinders for this disk is set to 1337."
01:21:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it is still going...
01:22:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, hey. What was the exit status
01:22:04 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Trying to quit with q. If the return status is 15, consider it GOOD...
01:22:54 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: add exitstatus command to print the last exit status, like bash's $?
01:24:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://pastebin.ca/1409047
01:24:27 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1409048 is expected output free standing
01:24:39 <kerlo> It seems that the last note of a measure is the same as the root of the chord of that measure.
01:24:41 <AnMaster> time, date, and env will differ
01:25:06 <AnMaster> kerlo, not if the measure is metric</lame joke>
01:25:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, I know empty lines are stripped
01:25:36 <kerlo> Is that the sort of joke that it's even possible to get? :-P
01:25:38 <AnMaster> but I don't see why the leading spaces are
01:25:47 * kerlo uses that rule to measurify his little tune
01:26:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: I assume it's because bash read LN strips *shrugs*
01:26:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, still pretty impressive :D
01:26:40 <Gracenotes> Ｈｍ， Ｔｈｅ ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ ａｎｄ ｈａｌｆｗｉｄｔｈ ｓｅｃｔｉｏｎｓ ｒｅａｌｌｙ ｔｅｎｄ ｔｏ ｐｉｑｕｅ ｏｎｅ＇ｓ ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔ！
01:26:52 <ehird> Gracenotes: and I feel kind of bad about it :(
01:26:55 <GregorR> Gracenotes: So does your face.
01:27:24 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, that is hard to read
01:27:45 <Gracenotes> Ｉ＇ｍ ｓｏｒｒｙ， ｄｉｄ ｙｏｕ ｓａｙ ｓｏｍｅｔｈｉｎｇ ａｂｏｕｔ ｍｙ ｆａｃｅ ：（
01:27:58 <GregorR> Gracenotes: Yes. Your ｆａｃｅ
01:27:58 <ehird> Gracenotes: So do you feel kind of bad about it :( or not?
01:28:24 <lifthrasiir> half-width, full-width. why not double-width?
01:28:45 <GregorR> USB has low-speed, full-speed, and high-speed (which is greater than full speed)
01:28:52 <kerlo> Quadruple-width: NOMINAL HORIZONTAL TABULATION
01:29:23 <Gracenotes> ｅｈｉｒｄ： ｐｅｒｈａｐｓ Ｉ ｆｅｅｌ ｋｉｎｄ ｏｆ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｉｔ ：（
01:29:29 <GregorR> norly-this-is-our-fastest-speed
01:29:38 <pikhq> Yes, "SuperSpeed".
01:29:48 <kerlo> Anyway, that little rule is completely consistent with my intuition.
01:29:57 <Gracenotes> ｅｈｉｒｄ： ｂｕｔ Ｉ ｄｏｎ＇ｔ ｔｈｉｎｋ ｔｈｅ ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ ｓｅｃｔｉｏｎ ｓｈｏｕｌｄ ｂｅ ｌｉｍｉｔｅｄ ｔｏ ｊｕｓｔ ｆｅｅｌｉｎｇ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｔｈｉｎｇｓ！ ｙｏｕ ｋｎｏｗ？
01:30:42 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, why is that font smaller
01:31:04 <AnMaster> wider than other monospace chars (!) but smaller letters
01:31:18 <kerlo> In order from slowest to fastest: Full Speed, Ultra Speed, Super Speed, Great Speed, High Speed, Added Speed, Speed.
01:31:22 <pikhq> And it's apparently similar to PCIe 1x...
01:31:24 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what fullwidth text is.
01:31:37 <ehird> Gracenotes: feeling bad about things != and i feel kind of bad about it :(ing
01:31:52 <AnMaster> kerlo, fastest to slowest right?
01:32:15 <kerlo> Yes. Fastest to slowest, starting on the right.
01:32:17 <ehird> AnMaster: many characters do.
01:32:26 <ehird> see, e.g., MUCH GREATER THAN or w/e
01:32:37 <ehird> comex: I refuse to answer messages prefixed by a line with just my name and a colon.
01:32:54 <AnMaster> ehird, That should not happen in a mono-space font
01:32:58 <ehird> AnMaster: It does.
01:33:09 <ehird> Monospace is wrong.
01:33:10 <comex> the AFO and I have way way way too many crops
01:33:17 <ehird> comex: Give me some.
01:33:38 <comex> now that nobody usually cares, it's the perfect time to make bayes play AAA
01:33:53 <comex> it will be a good way for me to procrastinate studying for APs
01:34:15 <comex> and I can host it somewhere reliable if you can't :p
01:35:38 <comex> for example, posting "I request subsidization" ever week would be very helpful
01:35:38 <Gracenotes> by the way. javascript:alert((function(s){t=[];for(i=s.length;i--;){v=s.charCodeAt(i);t.unshift(v==32?' ':String.fromCharCode(v+65248))}return t.join('')})(prompt('','')))
01:35:44 <Gracenotes> for your own full-width encoding needs
01:35:55 <kerlo> comex: what, you have AP tests?
01:36:04 <comex> also: maybe I'll annoy people and put it in the ruleset
01:36:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/b83da7601e63 <-- no commit message?!
01:36:43 <ehird> ａｎｄ Ｉ ｆｅｅｌ ｋｉｎｄ ｏｆ ｂａｄ ａｂｏｕｔ ｓｈｉｔ ：（
01:36:46 <kerlo> You're in high-school-or-the-equivalent-in-your-country, then?
01:36:49 <GregorR> That was just changing two configuration values, and I'm lazy :p
01:37:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, in the future will you be able to pull cfunge yourself? I mean it isn't really hard. Just bzr
01:37:59 <GregorR> Part of the idea behind new EgoBot is that since I can just accept bundles and push them, I can remain mostly hands-off.
01:38:11 <AnMaster> GregorR: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/59aeb98a08ea#l2.10 <-- ?
01:38:14 <GregorR> As a result, I'll only update things when either people give me updates or I feel like it.
01:38:18 <AnMaster> I didn't add an extra space to that line
01:38:38 <kerlo> So, now that I've figured out the rule governing chords in music, I just have to figure out the rules governing melody and rhythm.
01:38:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, that extra space on the line "2.10" is not in the patch
01:39:13 <AnMaster> 2.7 - rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x + 1;
01:39:13 <AnMaster> 2.8 - rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y + 1;
01:39:13 <AnMaster> 2.9 + rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x;
01:39:13 <AnMaster> 2.10 + rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y;
01:39:30 <GregorR> ..... there's no extra space there ..... at least not in my view ..... tab vs spaces?
01:42:14 <ehird> anyone know how to check what filesystem a given device is on linux?
01:42:35 <ehird> no, but I can mount it, maybe.
01:42:51 <ehird> i'm not certain debian comes with ext4 out of the box, and I want to check my "mke2fs -t ext4" worked, y'see
01:42:56 <AnMaster> the -s makes it work on special files
01:43:00 <ehird> AnMaster: no file(1)
01:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, note it may be wrong for ext4
01:43:06 <ehird> minimal busybox installer environment
01:43:25 <ehird> do I have to specify "stripe-width=32" on mount time, I wonder?
01:43:27 <ehird> or just at create time
01:43:44 <oklofog> kerlo: so what's the rule?
01:44:40 <oklofog> dunno, maybe i'm just blind
01:44:47 -!- MizardX has quit ("zzz").
01:44:56 <AnMaster> ehird, note that filesystem may be mounted as ext3...
01:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, if it doesn't use any of the new features
01:45:12 <ehird> AnMaster: well this is the issue isn't it
01:45:56 <ehird> awesome, I forgot mount's syntax and I have no man(1)
01:46:02 <kerlo> oklofog: the root of the chord of a measure is the same as the last note of that measure.
01:46:14 <AnMaster> mount -t ext4 /dev/bar /mnt/quux
01:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if busybox mount is the same
01:46:42 <kerlo> oklofog: it states that a certain thing is always a certain thing.
01:46:45 <kerlo> That makes it a rule.
01:46:48 <ehird> AnMaster: this is an lvm partition, it doesn't seem to mount
01:46:56 <ehird> what trickery do I need to mount an lvm-hosted partition?
01:47:00 <oklofog> kerlo: are you saying some melodies go by that rule?
01:47:14 <ehird> it says no such device.
01:47:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly did you do
01:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, because you should need no trickery
01:47:32 <kerlo> With Nightwish's "Amaranth", it works perfectly. With a little tune I came up with once, it works perfectly. With Mozart's Minuet in F for keyboard, K. 5, it fails perfectly.
01:47:49 <AnMaster> ehird, assuming you did vgchange -y -a and such of course
01:47:50 <ehird> mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1
01:47:51 <oklofog> then i don't know what you mean
01:48:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> mkdir /mnt/sda1 ; mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt/sda1 # where mke2fs -t ext4 -E stripe-width=32,resize=500G /dev/sda1
01:48:12 <oklofog> amaranth's chorus' first chord is the basic [037]-chord
01:48:14 <ehird> AnMaster: correct, pvcreate –metadatasize 250k /dev/sda2 is the lvm one
01:48:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you would have /dev/my-volume-group/foo
01:48:32 <oklofog> first measure ends in an A
01:48:32 <ehird> that's just convention iirc.
01:48:41 <oklofog> where i'm using my standard 0-9A-Z scal
01:48:55 <oklofog> kerlo: maybe i forgot what a measure is
01:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, which would be a symlink to /dev/device-mapper/myvolumegroup-foo
01:49:34 <ehird> debian's kernel is too old for ext4
01:49:48 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Apr 16 20:05 control -> ../device-mapper
01:49:49 <AnMaster> brw-r----- 1 root disk 254, 4 Apr 16 20:06 vg-flightgear
01:50:39 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> that's just convention iirc." <-- pretty sure it isn't "just" that
01:51:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's worth nothing that i don't know shit about lvm
01:51:10 <ehird> AnMaster: i've caved now. i'm going to try arch linux
01:51:12 <kerlo> oklofog: if you're offering, then sure.
01:51:20 <ehird> distroshopping :-)
01:51:31 <oklofog> kerlo: counterarguments to my counterargument?
01:51:39 <oklofog> but i think i'm right, why would i do that
01:51:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. Lets take this easy. Right?
01:51:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I AM NEVER EASY
01:52:10 <AnMaster> ehird, You may have your opinions on Gentoo and so on. But it is well known the official docs are high quality.
01:52:18 <AnMaster> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/lvm2.xml
01:52:26 <AnMaster> which describes what you need to know
01:52:35 <kerlo> oklofog: I haven't actually tried it with the chorus.
01:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it is centered on gentoo install, just ignore that bit
01:52:53 <ehird> I kind of get the feeling that LVM2 is horrific but I hvae to use it anyway :)
01:53:03 <kerlo> It actually does work with one part of the Minuet, so perhaps it fails with part of "Amaranth".
01:53:04 <oklofog> kerlo: what part then? give me notes and chords
01:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it is flexible. Like text config files.
01:53:34 <oklofog> i just took the part i remembered first, it's usually the chorus in pieces that are built on one.
01:53:41 <AnMaster> ehird, then there is http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/ too
01:54:09 <oklofog> kerlo: i'm pretty sure base note of chord = first note of measure is a better rule.
01:54:43 <oklofog> if not, then you do make an interesting point, in either case the rules governing chords are much more complicated than that.
01:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, I'm afraid lvm is one of those apps you hate before you "get it" and love once you "get it". And "getting it" requires reading manual.
01:55:10 <ehird> I'm only using LVM to do aligning stuff :(
01:55:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well. You need to know about it still
01:55:47 <AnMaster> if necessary, at a knife point ;P
01:55:48 * ehird dl archlinux-2009.02-ftp-i686.iso
01:55:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I may do.
01:55:56 <kerlo> Notes: A C D .|. . . .|A . G F|E . D C
01:56:10 <kerlo> Decent chords: Dm, Dm, F, C.
01:58:02 <AnMaster> kerlo, what about D C#m E B#m7?
01:58:03 <kerlo> I don't think the first note of the measure is reliable at all.
01:58:41 <AnMaster> oklofog, Yes. Wasn't this the Shönberg competition?
01:59:02 <kerlo> AnMaster was not serious, as those chords make no sense. I think.
01:59:39 <oklofog> kerlo: i know that. no excuse to have errors.
01:59:40 <AnMaster> oklofog, yes change it to Gbm-7+(2/3^2)
01:59:45 <ehird> AnMaster: how much ram should I have for arch
01:59:46 <oklofog> excuse to have nonsensicalities.
02:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, Well on my Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM I use Arch Linux.
02:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes LVM. But not for /boot and / of course
02:00:21 <ehird> AnMaster: will 384 do?
02:00:24 <kerlo> Anyway, the chords for the Minuet can be fixed trivially by shifting them a certain amount. A perfect fifth up or down.
02:00:35 <ehird> I plan on using lvm for /
02:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well I only run sshd, nfsd and ntp on it...
02:00:57 <ehird> AnMaster: 384 is enough to run a gnome debian system w/ firefox
02:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, then you need initramfs. For arch this means you will need to edit mkinitcpio.conf or something iirc
02:01:21 <AnMaster> to say "yes I want lvm tools in my initramfs"
02:01:26 <ehird> i don't want lvm for this vm
02:01:44 <AnMaster> also not sure if last arch cd has ext4
02:01:47 <ehird> just want to know how much ram i need for a comfortable graphical arch.
02:02:01 <kerlo> "The root of the chord of a measure is a perfect fifth <above/below> the last note of that measure."
02:02:06 <oklofog> kerlo: at least first note is part of the chord with a much greater probability than the last one. the last note isn't an emphasized note.
02:02:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd try with that and expand if not enough
02:02:37 <AnMaster> ehird, easy since it is a VM right?
02:03:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also depends on if you select KDE 4.x with compiz or plain xfce or whatever
02:03:21 * kerlo checks his tune again
02:03:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and KDE is a separate package repo iirc. Called "kdemod"
02:04:08 <oklofog> kerlo: of course below, that means they are the top note of the chord
02:05:41 <ehird> AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical?
02:06:22 <kerlo> I was wrong. With my little tune, it sucks as well.
02:07:12 <oklofog> kerlo: you do realize most notes whose position are odd (zero-indexed) are secondary notes and can be shifted without major consequences
02:07:22 <oklofog> the last note is often coincidental
02:08:21 <kerlo> Heuristic, then: the longest note is often the root.
02:08:31 <oklofog> i don't really have any idea how well chording can be done computationally
02:08:41 <oklofog> well, songsmith works pretty well
02:09:51 <oklofog> kerlo: if there's a note that's clearly longer than others, it's usually part of the chord.
02:10:18 <oklofog> but, well. heuristics are heuristics
02:10:52 <oklofog> but not like a derived class is-a base class.
02:11:18 <oklofog> maybe not, i forgot what i was doing
02:11:56 <oklofog> 50 minutes till last shop that ever closes closes.
02:12:25 <oklofog> would take me about 20 minutes to get there
02:12:48 <kerlo> Songsmith: "Eye of the Tiger? No problem! I'll just play some sunny chords in E flat minor. I hope syncopation is fine..."
02:13:18 <oklofog> more like i'll just play some sunny e minor.
02:13:35 <kerlo> E flat major. The song is in C minor.
02:13:41 <kerlo> Maybe it's sunny C minor.
02:14:02 <oklofog> well i don't care, i don't have absolute pitch
02:14:24 <oklofog> god i hate your lesser standards
02:14:26 <kerlo> Oh, that's your way of saying "minor", isn't it.
02:15:10 <oklofog> [...] is the sequential way to denote simultaneous notes
02:15:17 <kerlo> Just giving the number of semitones doesn't retain information some people think is important. :-P
02:15:41 <kerlo> Though three semitones is probably not an augmented second, and four semitones is probably not a diminished fourth.
02:15:44 <oklofog> sure, but those people are wrong
02:16:29 * kerlo listens to the Songsmith version of Everlong that doesn't suck.
02:16:49 <kerlo> (Not to be confused with "the Songsmith version of Everlong, which doesn't suck". The official version doesn't suck either.)
02:17:06 <oklofog> i should probably learn some theory
02:17:29 <oklofog> well songsmith's songs are usually good, i think people just aren't capable of listening to them as separate from the originals
02:18:04 <oklofog> then again maybe i just like everything that sounds weird.
02:18:29 <kerlo> Theory teaches you important stuff, like how 2^(10/12) = 7/4, 2^(7/12) = 6/4, and 2^(4/12) = 5/4.
02:18:48 <kerlo> The second approximation is the best, the last is not bad, and the first is the worst.
02:18:50 <oklofog> i have no idea what university music theory even is
02:19:05 <oklofog> probably it's not as good as i'd hope, but probably it's better than what it was in elementary school.
02:19:12 <oklofog> and that other school after taht
02:19:21 <kerlo> Elementary school has theory?
02:19:41 <oklofog> i was in a special music ...stream? god i don't know any terms
02:20:06 <oklofog> that's probably one term maybe sure yes
02:20:09 <kerlo> The majority of elementary school students I've seen have all been anthropomorphic animals.
02:20:32 <oklofog> i outsmarted pretty much all out teachers
02:21:03 <oklofog> my experience is elementary school teachers are like that.
02:21:28 <oklofog> then again this is just me complaining about how i lost half my life in school
02:21:35 <kerlo> I think I've been mirando too much playful visual media.
02:21:57 <kerlo> ("Mirando" being the Spanish word for both "watching" and "looking at". I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".)
02:22:28 <oklofog> (oh that was not just a translation)
02:22:49 <kerlo> What was an insight, not a translation?
02:23:47 <oklofog> well it was a translation, i just meant you had other content than just enough for me to understand what you mean.
02:24:02 <oklofog> which is good because i hate people telling me what i already know
02:24:58 <oklofog> mainly this here: 'I guess a relatively naive calque would be "mirating".' doesn't add anything to the translation, therefore it was insight.
02:25:49 <kerlo> Now to look for non-naive calques.
02:26:22 <oklofog> sophisticated enough for me
02:26:27 <kerlo> Ooh! "Admire" contains the English root, staring right at you.
02:27:34 <oklofog> does that come straight from spanish?
02:27:36 <kerlo> So "miring". I've been miring too much playful visual media.
02:28:01 <kerlo> "Admire" comes from Latin.
02:28:52 <kerlo> The word "mirar" is just a corruption of "mirari", I think, so we're allowed to pretend that "mirari" and "mirar" mean the same thing.
02:29:24 <kerlo> ("Mirari" actually means "admire"; it's just that we English speakers can't do without our ancient, unrecognizable prepositional prefixes.)
02:30:20 <oklofog> "start" may be a bad verb for that
02:31:48 * pikhq pensas ke gxi estas malintelegxente.
02:32:13 <kerlo> Wow, someone said a sentence in Esperanto I can understand.
02:32:29 <oklofog> you're wondering who's stupid?
02:32:34 <kerlo> "I'm starting Spanish next year" is a perfectly idiomatic way of saying "My Spanish classes start next year" or "I'm starting to study Spanish next year".
02:33:29 <oklofog> kerlo: well it sounds right, i'm just gradually losing more and more confidence in my language skills.
02:33:44 <pikhq> Also, I need to study my Esperanto. ;)
02:34:10 <oklofog> statistically speaking it's "loosing"
02:34:33 <oklofog> (i read a lot of english written by finns)
02:34:59 <pikhq> Better than reading English by 'Mericuhns.
02:35:44 <oklofog> that's one helluva pretty spelling
02:36:03 <oklofog> pikhq: what did that sentence mean?
02:36:11 <oklofog> pikhq: yes, reminds me of walruses
02:37:03 <pikhq> "I think that's stupid."
02:37:10 <pikhq> At least, that's what I wanted it to say.
02:37:10 <kerlo> Properly speaking, it's "losing". :-P
02:37:27 <kerlo> Well, "unintelligent".
02:37:39 <oklofog> kerlo: a pretty lose definition of "proper"
02:37:53 <kerlo> I'm not sure it's "unintelligent" in the sense that non-people can be unintelligent.
02:37:56 <oklofog> (sorry, i couldn't come up with a better usage)
02:38:22 <kerlo> "That movie had a really low IQ." "This song has the lowest IQ ever."
02:38:24 <oklofog> pikhq: ah so gxi was a pronoun, couldn't deduce that
02:39:10 <oklofog> is "gx" the lojban "x" character?
02:39:43 <kerlo> No, gx is dj in Lojban.
02:40:15 <oklofog> makes sense for intelegxente
02:40:29 <kerlo> Properly written, it's actually g with a circumflex accent.
02:40:43 <pikhq> My terminal hates the compose key.
02:41:03 <pikhq> (which is kinda stunning... rxvt-unicode should surely support, y'know, Unicode.)
02:41:36 <oklofog> i need to leave pretty much now if i want foods.
02:43:42 <kerlo> Eating is sometimes nice.
02:44:09 <kerlo> Hey, look. I've spent so long trying to work on this email that it is now dark outside.
02:44:21 <kerlo> Because of my procrastination, I cannot take a walk.
02:44:51 <oklofog> i probably need to take a walk soon, i'm currently at the uni
02:45:48 <kerlo> This is a shame, as I was looking forward to doing that today.
02:46:19 <kerlo> It's more fun than sitting in IRC waiting for someone to say something.
02:46:46 <kerlo> Then I was rendering your voice wrong. Let's start over.
02:46:50 <oklofog> i've had some of my best ideas walking around
02:48:06 <oklofog> people tend to interpret everything to be as hostile as possible, given no explicit sign of friendliness; humans have only communicated textually for so long
02:48:58 <oklofog> not my theory, but i find it very true.
02:49:39 <olsner> well of course, unkown people are by default only out to kill you and take your food and women
02:49:57 <oklofog> probably the only thing i learned from the "computer science and society" course
02:50:31 <kerlo> Women are property because they cannot be shared whereas men can.
02:50:43 <kerlo> According to a dubious blog post, that is.
02:50:57 <olsner> if it was in a blog, it's probably true
02:51:16 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
02:52:08 <oklofog> kerlo: men can be shared but women can't?
02:53:19 <oklofog> in what sense? probably men are better at being shared than women
02:54:13 <kerlo> Well, yeah. Women can't be shared as much as men.
02:54:39 <oklofog> psychologically or biologically?
02:55:05 <oklofog> former seems obvious, but may well be completely false
02:55:29 <kerlo> Of course, some men are selfish.
02:57:16 <oklofog> hmm, so it seems i'm not going to the shup.
02:57:57 <oklofog> but i probably should consider sleeping soon, especially as i'm not really reading because i'm too tired :)
02:58:51 <oklofog> also why couldn't you take a walk?
03:10:04 <kerlo> Around here, walking at night is generally considered improper or something.
03:10:31 <oklofog> err. what kind of place do you live in?
03:11:03 <oklofog> in cities and the woods it's okay, i guess in the areas between those it might be improper.
03:11:21 <oklofog> well not sure, i've never lived in the woods
03:13:09 <oklofog> here it's probably somewhat unsafe to be walking tonight, because it's a holiday of some sort and students are drinking lots
03:13:41 <oklofog> one tried to offer me a night of free beers at a bar on my way here
03:14:31 <oklofog> (i'm fairly sure he was hot for me, i'm quite a gay magnet for some reason)
03:15:04 <oklofog> except magnets can't physically be gay
03:15:34 <oklofog> so umm that's kind of a weird idiom.
03:16:20 <kerlo> The Township Trail runs right behind my backyard; it mostly goes through forest.
03:16:35 <kerlo> (I think it also goes through lots of people's front yards. Those people are probably unhappy.)
03:17:28 <kerlo> And we all know that "magnet" is a metaphor for "thing that attracts", and you were using "gay" as a noun.
03:18:08 <oklofog> well it was a joke, based on thinking of gay there as an adjective.
03:19:07 <kerlo> I guess there's also the problem of getting into the house when I return.
03:19:29 <oklofog> you live with your parents?
03:19:46 <kerlo> It would probably be illegal for me not to. Yes, I do.
03:19:47 <oklofog> i mean is it a noise problem, or you don't own a key, or the house doesn't let people in at night in any case
03:20:17 <kerlo> Below the age of majority, I'm sure.
03:20:30 <oklofog> 16 isn't a uncommon age to move out in finland
03:20:39 <oklofog> or maybe i just know uncommon people once again
03:20:49 <kerlo> I guess it's not going to be illegal for me to live at school once I go to school.
03:21:25 <kerlo> And it wasn't illegal for me to live in Indiana, though I'm sure there were people responsible for my whereabouts.
03:21:42 <oklofog> probably not. which school was that again? i think you've mentioned so i can ask
03:22:30 <kerlo> It's likely that it's been different every time I've mentioned it.
03:22:36 <oklofog> the to-be school, not the old one
03:22:39 <kerlo> Grand Valley State University is pretty much a certainty by now.
03:23:27 <oklofog> is it awesome? i'm always looking for american universities tips
03:23:48 <kerlo> I get the idea that it's pretty darn non-awesome.
03:24:10 <kerlo> Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology is the awesome one.
03:24:22 <kerlo> And it costs about $45,000 per year without scholarships.
03:24:31 <oklofog> what subject, i actually probably don't know?
03:25:03 <kerlo> Mathematics, economics, linguistics, or something similar to those.
03:25:28 <oklofog> well i can get any scholarship, so money isn't much of an issue
03:25:37 <kerlo> I like to call them the MEL subjects.
03:25:49 <kerlo> How do you know you can get any scholarship?
03:25:51 <oklofog> right, i always assumed math but you've talked about english too
03:26:31 <oklofog> well if they are based on merit, i can get them
03:27:17 <oklofog> i have a perfect average, and i've done 2.5 years worth of courses this year, so on paper i'm probably in the top then in the country
03:27:38 <oklofog> well okay not perfect but i can explain the few flaws
03:28:50 <kerlo> Hmm. I wonder if I've ever admired an actual person for their intelligence.
03:29:06 <oklofog> i don't think i've ever admired an actual person
03:29:17 <oklofog> people tend to be kinda stupid, even when they're better than me
03:29:41 <kerlo> I've admired the fictional Charlie Gordon for his, but I tend to think myself able to outdo people, if I put the effort into it.
03:29:49 <kerlo> And I never put the effort into it, so I'm never proven wrong.
03:30:01 <oklofog> well that's pretty much what i did this year, put the effort into it
03:30:59 <kerlo> 2.5 years' worth of courses in one year? Bring it on; all of my classes are boring.
03:31:49 <oklofog> it's still not that much, i just took a few more courses than i did in high school, here you just usually take very little, so my little is globally speaking a lot
03:32:25 <kerlo> But next week and the week after, I have AP tests. They include Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism, and Chemistry.
03:32:49 <oklofog> well those all sound interesting enough.
03:33:11 <kerlo> The bulk of my knowledge about economics comes from a one-semester economics course I took two years ago. A lot of my knowledge about physics comes from a one-year physics course I took six years ago.
03:33:27 <kerlo> Advanced Placement; the idea is getting college credit for classes taken in high school.
03:33:33 <oklofog> i don't have any knowledge about either :<
03:33:50 <kerlo> Anyway, I'm hoping that the economics tests will be pretty intuitive.
03:34:23 <oklofog> i got "college credit" for the courses i took at the actual university during high school
03:34:45 <kerlo> I think the amount of stuff there is to know about physics is relatively small.
03:34:48 <kerlo> Yeah, not the same.
03:35:14 <oklofog> and from the cisco ccna stuff i did, which was 100% surface learning, i don't remember any of it
03:35:48 <kerlo> Chemistry is something there is a lot to know about, but I got an 800 on the SAT II for it, and I took Honors Chemistry last year.
03:36:00 <kerlo> Let's see, my other AP tests are...
03:36:04 <oklofog> i didn't actually know how to study at high school, i did well enough by just using my brain in the exams
03:36:38 <oklofog> there's not a lot to know about physics?
03:36:48 <oklofog> where's Slereah when you need him
03:36:51 <kerlo> English, Biology, and Calculus BC, I'm taking the classes for, so there's little question that I'll get 5s on those.
03:37:09 <oklofog> oh same grade system, fail-5?
03:37:30 <kerlo> These differential equations govern gravity. These differential equations govern electricity and magnetism. That's it.
03:38:36 <kerlo> 1 is "no recommendation", 2 is "possibly qualified", 3 is "qualified", 4 is "well qualified", and 5 is "extremely well qualified".
03:38:59 <kerlo> These refer specifically to "college credit or advanced placement".
03:40:25 <kerlo> And the other ones I'm taking are Computer Science AB and Physics C: Mechanics.
03:40:32 <oklofog> speaking of studies, i have four exams next week, so i should probably start considering leaving soon
03:41:14 <kerlo> Each test takes four hours; I think I'll finish each day by 5 PM at the latest. This leaves a nice four hours to study for the next test, eh?
03:41:38 <oklofog> how many you have in one week?
03:41:52 <kerlo> They're spread out relatively evenly over two weeks.
03:42:10 <oklofog> i usually do exams in about 3 hours, therefore i have about 14 hours a day for reading
03:42:28 <kerlo> What, four hours of sleep?
03:42:29 <oklofog> i have 6 exams in the next 2 weeks
03:43:02 <oklofog> but yes, that's how much i sleep when i have exams, or less
03:43:33 <oklofog> "OMG WHAT IF I FORGET THE DETAILS OF THIS HEADER"
03:44:16 <kerlo> So, it looks like I have a test on Tuesday, May 5; one on Wednesday, May 6; three on Monday, May 11; one on Tuesday, May 12; one on Wednesday, May 13; and two on Thursday, May 14.
03:44:45 <kerlo> But the three on May 11 are really more like one and two halves, since the Physics C ones are half as long as the others.
03:45:23 <coppro> also, /me should scroll up
03:45:28 <oklofog> that's a lot of exams; then again if it's about aptitude i guess it doesn't matter that much.
03:45:38 <kerlo> Also, I have a load of Spanish homework due on May something.
03:45:56 <kerlo> My Spanish teacher said that I need to be doing about five assignments a day to catch up.
03:46:08 <oklofog> i like to surface learn all the details before the exam, which isn't the point for aptitude stuff (and not for exams either, it's just how i roll).
03:46:13 <coppro> Due to the fact that I'm not in AP and the fact that AP exams won't get me anything at my target university, I'm not writing any AP exams.
03:46:54 <kerlo> What is "aptitude"?
03:47:19 <oklofog> the thing i thought ap was about, and still think it is
03:47:41 <oklofog> and not about learning some specific new thing
03:48:04 <kerlo> So practical ability, neither knowledge nor intelligence exclusively but a combination.
03:48:48 <oklofog> something like that, i just meant it's probably the kind of exam that's more about how well you know the general subject than it is about being you know studied it lots.
03:49:03 <oklofog> like you know understanding. forget it :P
03:50:18 <kerlo> That's why I don't plan on studying lots. :-P
03:50:22 <oklofog> i just assume it's not the kind of thing you revise that much before the exam, but more the kind of thing that tries to measure what you learned in high school or whatever.
03:51:35 <oklofog> hmm, i'll probably leave in 10 minutes
03:52:06 <kerlo> I can study for one on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Thursday, one on Friday, one on Sunday, one on Monday, one on Tueday, one on Wednesday.
03:52:39 <oklofog> next time i don't have to study is probably 19.5.
03:52:49 <kerlo> Or I could be responsible and begin studying the day after tomorrow.
03:53:05 <oklofog> excluding these random 3 hour irc breaks
03:53:08 <kerlo> Yeah, right. I have things due Monday.
03:53:26 <kerlo> And I have an email to finish. Be back right before you leave or something.
03:54:04 <oklofog> alrighty, i'll try to consume a few more pages of this trivial networking crap
03:54:08 <coppro> but what I /do/ need to do is my calculus work
04:00:18 * kerlo finishes the email.
04:00:46 * kerlo wins, non-exclusively.
04:01:00 <oklofog> except i'll just leave irc and read the rest of this thing
04:01:16 <oklofog> so yes, we see like the swedes say.
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04:06:06 <kerlo> And I guess I have to go now as well.
04:06:33 <kerlo> I have two options: be tired, or get addicted to caffeine.
04:06:58 <kerlo> The obvious explanation for my being tired is that I slept too much last night. :-P
04:07:56 <kerlo> So, plan: read no more than 50 pages of Flowers for Algernon, then work on Spanish. I'm currently on page 185.
04:10:59 <Gracenotes> I think I'll include a lolcat in my cryptography presentation
04:11:12 <Gracenotes> namely this specimen, http://geekfriendly.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/schrodinger_s-lolcat.jpg
04:23:07 <GregorR> We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose.
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05:02:01 <kerlo> That seems really simple.
05:02:31 <kerlo> It makes me wonder if there's a way to estimate the maximum nimber of a group given a random sample.
05:03:20 <kerlo> The obvious answer is no, because it's PSPACE-complete.
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06:23:48 <Gracenotes> I can hear the sound of a thousand geeks scrambling to make such a script and be Internet Famous
06:24:32 <bsmntbombdood> there's got to be some ebay-scraping libraries already
06:27:08 <psygnisfive> it'd be hilarious if someone set up a beartrap in the pentagon
06:29:39 <Gracenotes> yeah, and they'd probably get a thousand life sentences, if not death by disembowelment and a thousand advertisers trying to use the recent "terrorist attack" to sell their security
06:32:38 <Gracenotes> my clock is telling me it's too late for aimless rants
06:33:47 <Gracenotes> oh no, your clever wordplay has rendered every bit of logical reasoning I've picked up over the years utterly useless! :X
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07:13:02 <Gracenotes> psygnisfive: you clearly don't know how to speak Engrish
07:14:13 <Gracenotes> yeas, "set us up" sounds more natural and more menacing
07:14:49 <Gracenotes> but your base are not have property natural
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09:24:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: The arch installer is not graphical? <-- Yes. Ncurses has line art... :P
09:24:30 <AnMaster> I mean, you won't ever need to use it again after.
09:24:36 <AnMaster> since Arch is pure rolling release.
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16:50:03 <louzer> Is there a mechanical way to make a quine of a combinator?
16:50:23 <louzer> something like a fixed point combinator?
16:52:42 <Slereah> What do you call a quine from a combinator, exactly?
16:54:50 <louzer> A quine from an expression made of combinators is something that evaluates producing the same expression that was evaluated.
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16:56:19 <Slereah> That would be... a non-normal form?
16:56:26 <ais523> louzer: ```sii``sii is the most famous combinator quine, in that sense
16:56:33 <ais523> although any such quine is necessarily an infinite loop
16:57:03 <Slereah> And I'm not sure you can actually compute to check for it.
16:57:54 <Slereah> Unless you can, since it's not actually every non-normal forms
16:58:02 <ais523> Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is
17:01:56 <AnMaster> it has some new dependencies. Which has more dependencies.
17:02:38 <AnMaster> two deps left ot compile before it's time to compile gcc itself.
17:03:13 <ais523> I love the Ubuntu/Debian "install all build dependencies of this package" command
17:03:33 <ais523> lets you build what parts of the system you like by hand, without chasing dependencies
17:05:00 <AnMaster> ais523, they are not in stable arch linux at least yet.
17:05:02 <louzer> ais523, Perhaps there are ways for a combinator expression to loop forever without ever reaching its starting point
17:05:13 <ais523> louzer: there definitely are
17:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I had to recompile one dep (gmp) to enable some more options for it
17:05:45 <ais523> ```s``skki``sii becomes ```sii``sii after once round the loop, IIRC
17:05:56 <ais523> and from then on is ```sii``sii forever
17:06:00 <louzer> ais523, that was quick
17:06:18 <ais523> heh, ```s.a.b``s.c.d is the usual expression I use to test Unlambda interps
17:06:22 <AnMaster> ais523, what about one not ever reaching the same state again. As in, every state is unique
17:06:25 <ais523> so I'm rather familiar with how it loops
17:06:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I think that's possible too, but harde
17:07:10 <ais523> imagine something like (:*:^):^, translated to Unlambda
17:08:38 <Slereah> Around stacks, never relax.
17:10:11 <louzer> what if use Zobrist hashing to test whether some evaluation step during evaluation gets repeated? We will be able to do impossibility-space tradeoff attack on halting problem lol.. (People use Zobrist hashing to find whether chess board states get repeat when searching down the game tree.)
17:11:33 <louzer> wait ordinary hashing would do
17:12:07 <louzer> because expressions can be evaluated unambiguosly
17:12:51 <louzer> zobrist would help to check whether parts of the expression are getting repeated
17:13:39 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/ytest.bf
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17:14:14 <AnMaster> ais523, did you miss that yesterday about egobot?
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17:14:53 <louzer> I bet Turing would say there exists an expression that does not have any detectable pattern that signifies non-haltability
17:16:06 <AnMaster> oh and another thing... I made a patch to add befunge-98 to it. Using cfunge. Which made me add some new compile time options for cfunge. To enable/disable some things.
17:16:32 <AnMaster> (TURT is disabled in cfunge in EgoBot, so is NCRS and TERM. And it runs with -S so no unsafe IO)
17:18:40 <louzer> Guys, so there cannot be a mechanical way to generate a quine of a combinator expression because that would mean there exists halting predictor which is impossible?
17:19:36 <ais523> oh, you can certainly generate some infinite combinator loops
17:20:52 <ais523> ```s``ska``skb``s``skf``skg is an infinite loop no matter what a, b, f, g
17:21:07 <ais523> (Unlambda experts will know why I skipped c, d, and e)
17:21:21 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
17:21:31 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
17:21:45 <ais523> it's nice to see the exclamation mark prefix come back
17:22:26 <AnMaster> there are instructions for how to add new languages.
17:23:22 <ais523> but that would been I'd need an Underload interp written in something sane
17:23:53 <louzer> Life would have been so much easier if I had an Oracle machine.. fuck reality! it doesn't want me to have one.
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17:25:25 <AnMaster> ais523, C, java, haskell and several other ones are supported.
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17:25:32 <AnMaster> it executes the interpreter binaries.
17:25:39 -!- thutubot has joined.
17:26:18 <ais523> now 2 out of 5 bots here can do Underload
17:26:22 <ais523> rather than 1 out of 4
17:26:25 <ais523> Slereah: that wasn't deliberate!
17:26:38 <ais523> if it were, I'd have capitalised it properly
17:27:11 <ais523> !unlambda ```s.a.b``s.c.d
17:27:29 <ais523> I probably shouldn't have fed it an infinite loop
17:27:41 <ais523> Slereah: that produces no output, obviously
17:28:06 <ais523> I can only conclude I accidentally crashed it with that loop
17:28:14 <GregorR> Did you guys kill EgoBot >_<
17:28:21 <ais523> GregorR: I think quite possibly
17:28:27 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
17:28:37 <ais523> ok, it's listening to you
17:28:41 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
17:29:03 <GregorR> It's possible, and even likely, that unlambda doesn't work.
17:29:17 <ais523> I know that bf works, though
17:29:20 <ais523> and I'm not getting output from it
17:29:30 <ais523> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
17:29:37 <ais523> it's just not accepting input via !
17:30:16 <GregorR> What should ````kiss.x output?
17:30:17 <ais523> we certainly need to add Underload, but the problem is that the only two known sandboxed Underload interps are written in esolangs
17:30:38 <ais523> and `s.x has no output
17:30:43 <ais523> because it's an incomplete expression
17:31:08 <ais523> how does EgoBot handle infinite loops?
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17:31:14 <Slereah> !unlambda ````````kiss.m.y.a.s.s
17:31:41 <GregorR> It nices down, kills long-running scripts, and refuses to allow anything to take more than 25% CPU
17:32:13 <GregorR> Does underload have the ability to run I/O or whatnot?
17:32:19 <ais523> underload does O but not I
17:32:50 <AnMaster> one of the deps fail configuring
17:32:52 <ais523> +ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:32:54 <thutubot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/******************************************************* ...too much output!
17:32:58 <ais523> ^ul (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
17:32:58 <fungot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************/********************************************************************************* ...too much output!
17:33:00 <AnMaster> it claims a header that does exist doesn't...
17:33:00 <GregorR> So there's no complelling reason not to use a normal underload interp?
17:33:11 <ais523> the only compelling reason is that there are no normal underload interps
17:33:28 <GregorR> Well, one that's in an esolang is fine, really.
17:33:33 <ais523> it's simple enough to implement that everyone just wrote esolang versions
17:33:36 <GregorR> So long as it's an esolang that EgoBot supports.
17:33:36 <ais523> Slereah: no, fibonacci
17:33:42 <ais523> primes don't go up exponentially
17:34:07 <ais523> really, the best thing would just be to write an interp in something sane
17:34:21 <ais523> there's an efficient C version, but it's a compiler not an interp
17:35:01 <ais523> Underload interps have been written in: JS, Thutu, Befunge, Redcode, BF
17:35:18 <ais523> the other problem is it's very easy to use up memory really quickly in an Underload program
17:35:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i found some example that rcfunge is faster than cfunge... :p
17:35:22 <ais523> do you have a limit on memory used?
17:35:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the actual program?
17:36:02 <ais523> also, the only way to output a newline in Underload's to put a literal newline in the program
17:36:06 <ais523> but that could just be done via URL
17:36:06 <lifthrasiir> it puts p at <9^6,0> so it tests pure performance of the fungespace get
17:36:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, where does it put it
17:36:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is those value average over several runs btw?
17:36:32 <GregorR> ais523: That sort of issue I just dont care about ;)
17:36:48 <ais523> <lifthrasiir's link> 'q99*:*:*0p3
17:37:22 <ais523> I don't see how the ' before the q is ever overwritten
17:37:35 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it runs over lots of empty funge-space indeed,
17:37:49 <lifthrasiir> ais523: no, it puts q at <9^8,0>, so after ...p3 there is a generated q and exits
17:38:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about ccbi and pyfunge on it
17:38:41 <ais523> I suppose an interp really optimised for that program would skip all the spaces in one go, and handle that in O(1) not O(n) time
17:38:43 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i don't have a working ccbi build yet, due to out of time, and pyfunge... is too slow.
17:38:55 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to find all those spaces.
17:39:07 <ais523> you could know there was nothing in the columns inbetween
17:39:10 <AnMaster> which means lots of "check if value exist in hash table" for cfunge.
17:39:39 * ais523 tests Language::Befunge
17:39:45 <lifthrasiir> ~/hg/pyfunge$ echo '88*99*::**0p' | time ./pyfunge -v98 -
17:39:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I could. But then I would need to check the hash table for column count
17:39:58 <AnMaster> which would for most programs be a waste of time.
17:40:22 <ais523> that's why I said "optimized for that program"
17:40:52 <lifthrasiir> but still i cannot think why rcfunge is faster than cfunge then. maybe because of mac strangeness? :S
17:40:57 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, feel free to tune the size of the static array to include that. #defines are near line 100 of src/funge-space/funge-space.c. Note the comment about
17:41:13 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X 512
17:41:13 <AnMaster> #define FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y 1024
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17:42:27 <AnMaster> anyway: each must be a power of two. And (FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X * FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y * sizeof(funge_cell)) % 128 == 0
17:42:57 <AnMaster> the comment *was* correct after all
17:43:30 <ais523> jqbef98 is much slower than either cfunge or RC/funge
17:43:37 <ais523> not at all surprising, it's one of the slowest on Mycology
17:43:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I'll try profile it later today. Doing some other stuff atm. And food is soon ready.
17:44:11 * ais523 kills the process after 90 seconds
17:45:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, not that I know rcfunge code very well.
17:45:41 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
17:45:58 <AnMaster> ais523, were you around when Deewiant tested on 32 MB large text file from project gutenberg?
17:46:03 <lifthrasiir> FYI, i have #defined FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X to 0x4000000 and FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y to 1, and cfunge became very slow (i.e. 60s and still running)
17:46:06 <AnMaster> With a @ to just check parsing.
17:46:18 <lifthrasiir> for smaller FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X there is no difference.
17:46:23 <ais523> I like that idea, give a @ followed by 32 MB of junk?
17:46:47 <AnMaster> ais523, ah. cfunge was fastest. 27 seconds or such and 2.2 GB RAM. CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly)
17:46:55 <AnMaster> don't remember what other ones he tested.
17:47:06 <ais523> also, my guess for the 0x4000000 define is that cfunge caused the computer to swap by trying to access that much memory
17:47:38 <ais523> that's a 1 followed by 26 zeroes, isn't it?
17:47:54 <ais523> wait, *4 or 8 due to width of an int
17:48:07 <ais523> 256 MB isn't an insane amount for some modern computers
17:48:14 <ais523> presumably yours can't handle it, though
17:48:51 <ais523> 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though
17:53:50 <ais523> anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp?
17:53:54 <ais523> as opposed to a compiler?
17:54:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 3.x or 4.x RAM and 4x minutes
17:56:39 <GregorR> ais523: Super-optimiZed is not a requirement. (But American spelling is lawl ;) )
17:56:56 <ais523> yes, especially as I'm British
17:57:08 <ais523> I write in a mix of British and American English unless I concentrate
17:57:12 <ais523> due to being on the Internet so much
17:57:28 <ais523> but if I'm going to write an interp in a sane language, I want it to run quickly
17:57:29 <GregorR> AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE INTARWEBS
17:58:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: " CCBI was way more. And more than half an hour (forgot how long exactly)"
17:58:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> 256 MB should fit in 2GB without swapping, though
17:59:08 <ais523> but cache misses shouldn't slow cfunge down that dramatically
17:59:29 <Deewiant> Life was simpler when all memory was the same speed
17:59:47 <ais523> even back in the 6502, memory access to the bottom 256 bytes of memory was faster
18:00:03 <ais523> although only 16 bytes of it was available to user programs
18:00:52 <ais523> who's Lawrence Woodman, I wonder? He's been writing about Redcode and SUBLEQ
18:03:14 <AnMaster> ais523, 256 MB is quite a bit to fill with spaces initially though
18:03:33 <ais523> although again it shouldn't take that long
18:03:34 <AnMaster> even though I use streaming non-temporal stores.
18:03:46 <ais523> memtest86 can fill my entire memory with anything in less than a second
18:03:50 <ais523> and I have more than 256 MB
18:04:21 <AnMaster> actually, not the entire memory
18:04:30 <AnMaster> it needs to reserve some for itself
18:04:51 <ais523> yes, the entire memory
18:04:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean. For it's own code.
18:05:00 <ais523> it fills most of it, then moves itself to a different location, then tests the bit where it was
18:05:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about BIOS reserved bits.
18:05:47 <ais523> I'm not sure how it handles those
18:06:01 <ais523> I imagine it doesn't test memory-mapped registers with random data, though!
18:07:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, did that one you set ever finish?
18:07:27 <AnMaster> if not I suspect it just doesn't handle 1 for the dimension very well.
18:07:43 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i terminated it before it finishes.
18:18:28 <AnMaster> what does "ulp" mean in the context of floating point
18:19:06 <AnMaster> ok. And what does that actually _mean_
18:19:23 <Deewiant> ulp(x) is the difference between the two floating-point numbers closest to x
18:19:52 <lifthrasiir> a gap between it and closest representable number greater than it
18:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, does one need to do the bootstrap thing when building a new gcc version using the previous gcc version.
18:24:35 <ais523> possibly in this channel, but only an older version, and I bet there are people who know more about gcc than me elsewhere
18:24:53 <ais523> and you never "need" to do the bootstrap thing, not even for building with a different compiler
18:25:02 <AnMaster> ais523, why does it default to being used then
18:25:15 <ais523> because it gives a more efficient binary in most cases, and because you can't test unless you bootstrap
18:25:20 <GregorR> To verify trhat the generated compiler is correct.
18:27:07 <GregorR> And because the compiler doesn't taste like chicken until it's compiled itself.
18:27:45 <lifthrasiir> well, anyone can connect to eso-std.org domains? my DNS didn't resolve them at all.
18:28:03 <ais523> err, eso-std.org no longer exists
18:28:07 <ais523> ehird dropped the domain, and it's been parked
18:28:22 <ais523> if there's something for particular you're looking for that was there, I might know where it is now
18:29:34 <AnMaster> odd, why does trying to open a new ssh connection only work when the target computer isn't loaded.
18:29:43 <AnMaster> existing ones work fine in all cases.
18:30:59 <AnMaster> and even if I ctrl-z whatever is putting that load on the system... It doesn't help.
18:31:22 <AnMaster> as in, any existing ssh that is currently connecting doesn't finish connecting.
18:33:32 <AnMaster> especially configure running prevents it working. Compiles do it sometimes.
18:35:56 <ais523> heh, Microsoft's servers crashed when they tried to release Windows 7 RC to the MSDN and TechNet subscribers
18:36:27 <Deewiant> I was under the impression they just got slashdotted
18:36:45 <AnMaster> someone should slashdot slashdot
18:36:59 <GregorR> Why was eso-std.org taken down? (<-- ehird?)
18:37:08 <ais523> Deewiant: I consider being slashdotted as a form of crashing
18:37:29 <ais523> GregorR: I'm not entirely sure, I'm no good at following ehird's logic with server maintenance
18:37:39 <Deewiant> Slashdottedness doesn't require manual intervention to resolve
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18:37:52 <ais523> well, just slashdotted then
18:38:19 <GregorR> ais523: I don't suppose there was anything hugely relevant there anyway? :)
18:38:28 <ehird> GregorR: It was dormant.
18:38:42 <ehird> Will not be soon due to moving to prgmr
18:38:54 <ehird> 03:23 GregorR: We were talking about PSPACE-complete games in Theory today, and one that he mentioned I think has the potential to be used as the basis for a real game. Given a graph, a starting vertex, and two players, each player selects a vertex pointed to by the current vertex, and crosses the current vertex out. You're not allowed to move to a vertex which is crossed out, and if you can't move, you lose.
18:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: well, I can try Arch.
18:39:11 <ehird> downloading Slackware atm
18:39:41 <ehird> Started to, then had to go sleep.
18:39:45 <ais523> ehird: that game GregorR mentioned, if you did it with a directed graph you could use it to model any finite game, with an appropriate graph
18:39:54 <ehird> ais523: Even hawtter.
18:40:12 <oerjan> well nxn Go is supposedly PSPACE-complete iirc
18:40:13 <ehird> mayhaps I will try a BSD afater slack
18:40:39 <ais523> ehird: are you messing with lots of different Linux distros?
18:41:14 <AnMaster> ais523, could you model chess with it
18:41:28 <ehird> AnMaster: arch using grub on a cd freaked me out
18:41:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in theory, but the graph would be insanely massive
18:41:45 <ehird> it worked just fine
18:41:51 <GregorR> ais523: How massive? If exponential, that's not a valid reduction :P
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you do it. I mean how do you represent a game in it.
18:42:02 <ais523> GregorR: yes, exponential
18:42:11 <GregorR> Right, so that doesn't prove anything about Chess.
18:42:13 <ais523> AnMaster: with one node for every position, and directed arcs that don't let you go back
18:42:17 <ais523> GregorR: no, it wasn't meant to
18:42:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: chess has some timeout rules that force it to be finite
18:42:35 <GregorR> So in short, every game with a finite number of states can be represented as a graph of states.
18:42:50 <oerjan> (not just no. states but also length)
18:43:01 <AnMaster> ais523, you could only represent turn-based games with moves on a graph or board I think. And only deterministic ones.
18:43:22 <AnMaster> for example, you couldn't represent any game with dice right?
18:43:28 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, I don't mind a textual installer, it just tends to imply unpolishedness in other areas
18:43:36 <ais523> you're right, it would have to be deterministic
18:43:49 <ehird> ais523: just add a token
18:43:54 <ais523> but you don't need moves on a graph/board, anything with a finite number of defined states will do
18:43:55 <ehird> meaning a number from 0-N inclusive
18:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, and turn based. Not deterministic and continuous.
18:44:04 <GregorR> Is there a theory of nondeterministic graphs? :P (Quantum graphs?)
18:44:09 <ais523> AnMaster: continuous implies infinite number of states
18:44:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well maybe wrong word.
18:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume I want an ftp/http installation source?
18:44:27 <ehird> I'm using the ftp disk
18:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, now it was almost a year ago I installed. So I don't remember all details
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18:45:22 <oerjan> GregorR: strictly speaking a reduction from something bounded finite is not really exponential no matter how much it blows up
18:45:39 <oerjan> (you just stick it in the constant multipliers)
18:45:41 <ehird> AnMaster: oh god, I have to use the awful partitioning program
18:45:47 <AnMaster> ais523, make a graph to represent D&D first edition.
18:45:55 <AnMaster> I thought there was fdisk on it
18:46:10 <ais523> D&D first edition is nondeterministic and has an infinite number of states
18:46:13 <Deewiant> cfdisk crashed on my disk IIRC
18:46:14 <GregorR> oerjan: True. But I was assuming "generalized" Chess with nxn boards *shrugs*
18:47:24 <ehird> Pacman preparation failed.
18:47:31 <ehird> Even slackware's install is better
18:48:44 <GregorR> Slackware has an installer? :P
18:48:52 <oerjan> GregorR: i (very vaguely) recall that loop quantum gravity theory may use something that's almost quantum graphs, although the spin or was it area annotations may be on tuples of lines so it's a bit higher-dimensional
18:49:16 <ehird> GregorR: It has a command which tells you how to run the disk partitioner, and a program that lets you select what packages to install which then copies them to the disk.
18:49:24 <ehird> The package installer even uses ncurses.
18:49:40 <GregorR> They've given up on their heritage! :(
18:49:42 <ehird> Slackware isn't unusable... just minimalist.
18:50:12 <GregorR> LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro.
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18:50:22 <ehird> GregorR: I am going to kill you now.
18:50:28 <GregorR> LFS is so awesome it scared thutubot away.
18:50:35 <ehird> GregorR: You will then die.
18:50:46 <ehird> "They're just sitting there taking up (precious) disk space." — LFS
18:50:53 <ehird> Precious disk space.
18:51:05 <ehird> I think the last time I thought disk was precious was in the nineties.
18:51:31 <GregorR> That's why "precious" is in parens X-P
18:51:45 <GregorR> You could always install Gentoo (wimpmode LFS)
18:51:59 <ehird> I hate Gentoo with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.
18:52:10 <GregorR> Because it's wimpmode LFS.
18:54:21 <oerjan> <ais523> Slereah: that's an interesting question. "Does a combinator expression halt" is obviously unsolvable. "Does a combinator expression ever return to its starting point when evaluated" is I suspect unsolvable, but it's not obvious from the halting problem that it is
18:55:07 <oerjan> i think that's nearly obvious though, because you can take an integer function with unsolvable halting and turn it into a quine
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18:57:06 <ehird> GregorR: WOW, you can use cfdisk OR fdisk!
18:57:16 <ehird> Slackware is amazing.
18:57:21 <oerjan> also, if something returns to its starting point that can obviously be proved, just as it can be proved _if_ something halts
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18:58:00 <oerjan> (i guess this is really "obvious if you've thought about such problems before")
18:58:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> Even slackware's install is better <-- I never had any issues.
18:58:26 <AnMaster> but cd version I used was from august last year.
18:58:41 <ehird> Cool, slackware calls ext2 "standard".
18:59:13 <AnMaster> <GregorR> LFS is how people who aren't pansies install their distro. <-- I done it. And HLFS. You learn a lot, but you don't want to use it.
18:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you not going with ubuntu or debian
18:59:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Boredom. I have cheap VM creation.
18:59:37 <ehird> And a fast internet connection.
18:59:40 <oerjan> ehird: old standards are also standards?
18:59:42 <ehird> Distros are like pokemon,.
18:59:58 <ehird> Emacs is a separate package series in the slackware installer :DDDDDDDDDDD
19:00:11 <ehird> lawl, it comes with tex by default
19:00:22 <ehird> and games! BLOATWARE MORE LIEK
19:00:28 <ehird> I bet it comes with hunt(1)
19:00:36 <ehird> That bastion of funnity
19:00:37 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea about arch in vm
19:00:51 <ehird> "full Install everything (4.8+ GB of software, RECOMMENDED!)"
19:00:51 <AnMaster> I only tried it on a non-virtual computer.
19:01:00 <AnMaster> where it worked (and works) perfectly.
19:01:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> I bet it comes with hunt(1)
19:01:25 <ehird> AnMaster: a bsdgame
19:01:37 <ehird> goes over the network!
19:01:44 <ehird> although you'd best use localhost tbh
19:01:56 <ehird> you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels
19:01:57 <ehird> and shoot each other
19:02:22 <AnMaster> ehird, ASCII art with look down like nethack or adventure game style
19:02:44 <AnMaster> there are bsdgames that are text adventure
19:02:46 <ehird> nobody did adventure game style graphics then
19:02:58 <ehird> 19:01 ehird: you walk around nethack-style uncovering tunnels
19:03:02 <ehird> that implies graphical
19:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, adventure style == adventure(1)
19:03:19 <ehird> AnMaster: fail. it's ADVENT(1)
19:03:37 <AnMaster> ADVENTURE(6) BSD Games Manual ADVENTURE(6)
19:06:09 <ehird> why does lfs need a guide?
19:06:13 <ehird> it seems pretty simple
19:06:37 <AnMaster> you need to create a temp system in /tools first
19:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: err, I meant installing from an existing linux
19:06:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes even then that is recommended.
19:08:30 <ehird> "Debra Lynn Murdock and Ian Ashley Murdock"
19:08:37 <ehird> — List of divorces for aug 10-16 07
19:09:03 <GregorR> Not that either of them worked on Debian by then anyway :P
19:11:46 <ehird> Maybe I should make Hirdux ;-)
19:13:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Ian Murdock + Debra Murdock = Debian.
19:13:55 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>[.]
19:14:05 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<]>.
19:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Ian Murdock founded it...
19:14:08 <ehird> Debra was his wife.
19:14:12 <ais523> ehird: you have a girlfriend called Ux?
19:14:36 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[.]
19:14:45 <fungot> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ...
19:14:51 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
19:14:54 <ehird> Hirdux would deviate from all standards whenever possible
19:15:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, it runs for 30 seconds before ending program
19:15:10 <ais523> ehird: ReactOS already exists...
19:15:20 <ehird> but I mean, while still being linux
19:15:22 <ehird> I'd probably have no /usr
19:15:24 <oerjan> i see EgoBot doesn't handle infinite output
19:15:32 <ehird> Well, I'd have /usr, but it'd be /home.
19:15:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, process is killed after 30 seconds.
19:15:53 <AnMaster> I guess it is line buffer output
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19:16:05 <ehird> I'd also get rid of /boot
19:16:13 <ehird> After all, it's not anything to do with booting, it's just the kernel!
19:16:39 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest38386.
19:16:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: i am not saying it's surprising
19:17:10 <ehird> I wonder if the kernel is executable?
19:17:12 <oerjan> but it's much more fun when you can do infinite lists and stuff
19:17:13 <ehird> ais523: do you know?
19:17:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider adding an @
19:17:44 <ais523> ehird: I don't, but I doubt it is
19:17:50 <ais523> you'd have to wrap it in a container
19:17:56 <ais523> and even then, it wouldn't work running in user space
19:18:03 <ehird> ais523: but if you +x'd it, and put it in a container, and was in kernelspace, would it be executable?
19:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, how far do your funge get in mycology now btw
19:18:09 <ehird> Or is it not "directly" executable?
19:18:12 <EgoBot> kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
19:18:28 <ais523> ehird: well, in order to load a kernel you copy the image into memory and give it the instruction pointer
19:18:34 <ais523> that's the same process you need to run an executable
19:18:36 <ehird> AnMaster: older program
19:18:49 <ehird> ais523: right then, my kernel would go in /bin!
19:18:58 <ehird> /bin/linux or something
19:19:14 <AnMaster> because that should output lots of F not lots of k
19:19:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Why? It's a binary.
19:19:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Well phooey to that!
19:19:43 <Deewiant> ehird: Binaries are processes and belong in /proc
19:19:56 <ehird> Maybe I'd unify /bin and /lib
19:20:02 <ehird> Since the distinction is often shaky.
19:20:08 <ehird> Especially for scripts
19:20:11 <Deewiant> /bin is for all non-textual data
19:20:23 <oerjan> 09:53:50 <ais523> anyone here have ideas of how to write a super-optimised sane Underload interp?
19:20:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Probably I'd have /bin be all binaries & libraries.
19:20:36 <ais523> ehird: just have executable shared libraries
19:20:44 <oerjan> as for memory, you could always do some sharing of structures
19:21:03 <oerjan> would be easy in haskell
19:22:00 <oerjan> (just make * a constructor, essentially)
19:22:49 <AnMaster> ehird, better idea: /sys/* /proc/* /user/*, first one is system files. All of them. Config files, program, libraries, kernel, ..., second one is for those pseudo file things needed. You should combine /proc (classical) /sys and /dev in it
19:23:34 <AnMaster> no files may be written outside those dirs (that is, /foo is invalid)
19:23:36 <ais523> AnMaster: why use directories at all, if you're banning subdirs
19:23:47 <ais523> actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous
19:24:21 <AnMaster> ais523, for upgrades obviously. If user creates a file "X" and then you add X in new release you are into issues
19:24:30 <AnMaster> with /sys/X and /user/X you have no issues.
19:24:36 <ehird> http://pastie.org/465240.txt?key=suxdvgfmuazte7rug8rvw ← The Hirdux Hierarchy
19:24:45 <ehird> Simple, effective!
19:25:14 <ehird> AnMaster: /bin/grub.bin
19:25:20 <ehird> .bin means "raw executable data, yo, no headers"
19:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to patch grub then.
19:25:59 <ais523> ehird: you should have a SIGUSR3 signal
19:26:01 <ais523> you know, just in case
19:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, because it expects a certain layout.
19:26:10 <ehird> ais523: that's up to the kernel
19:26:17 <ehird> AnMaster: grub can boot non-linux OSes
19:26:20 <ais523> you can patch the kernel!
19:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and linux systems doesn't work without /proc.
19:26:23 <ehird> just do the multiboot stuff
19:26:27 <ehird> and fine, I'll have /proc too
19:26:35 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and /sys too iirc nowdays
19:26:42 <ehird> then I'll use an older kernel
19:26:46 <AnMaster> you might get that to work without udev
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19:27:09 <ehird> i'd also need /mnt
19:27:12 <ehird> but that file has the basic structure
19:27:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the thing with /usr/root
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19:27:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Basically, /usr/foo is the same hierarchy as /, except that there's no /usr/foo/usr (duh) and /usr/foo/home is their home directory.
19:27:48 <ehird> So you have /usr/anmaster/bin, etc.
19:27:52 <ehird> And /usr/anmaster/home/music
19:28:00 <ehird> ~ = /usr/$USER/home
19:28:18 <AnMaster> why is there a bin outside their home but inside their user
19:28:27 <ehird> ais523: tell him why it makes sense
19:28:37 <ehird> (/usr/foo is not a home directory, it's just that user's personal system files)
19:28:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> actually, the existence of dirs but not subdirs is nicely ridiculous <-- IIRC Mac OS 1 (!) had something like that
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19:28:50 <ehird> AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/local/bin is now /usr/anmaster/bin
19:28:58 <ais523> AnMaster: DOS 1 didn't have dirs at all
19:29:02 <ehird> AnMaster: what would be /home/anmaster/music is not /usr/anmaster/home/music
19:29:08 <ehird> AnMaster: see? it separates the two distinct concepts.
19:29:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. So what should be in home then
19:29:21 <ais523> ehird: err, Windows Vista works like that
19:29:23 <ehird> AnMaster: /usr/anmaster/home/music
19:29:25 <ais523> so that's hardly original
19:29:29 <ehird> ais523: i never said it was
19:29:34 <ehird> AnMaster doesn't understand it, though.
19:29:44 <ehird> AnMaster: also /usr/anmaster/code/foo
19:29:52 <AnMaster> ehird, that should be home/code?
19:30:03 <ehird> /usr/anmaster is just things like a user's local binaries, logfiles, databases, blah blah blah
19:30:11 <ais523> what if I write a program called .
19:30:11 <ehird> /usr/anmaster/home is their personal scratchspace
19:30:17 <ehird> ais523: it exists.
19:30:18 <ais523> can I use .. as a dotfile to store its data?
19:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway /lib needs subdirs on Linux. Where do you place kernel modules now
19:30:38 <AnMaster> since you can have more than one kernel version installed
19:30:41 <ais523> AnMaster: clearly, you distinguish kernel modules by the file extension
19:30:45 <ehird> AnMaster: /bin/linux/{kernel.bin,moduleblah.so,...}
19:30:57 <AnMaster> doesn't solve the version problem
19:31:02 * Hiato1 just wants to hear suggestions for an interesting, non-eso programming language from the chatroom. Is that so much to ask!?!?! :P
19:31:12 <AnMaster> kernel expects a structured layout iirc
19:31:12 <ehird> AnMaster: don't care about multiple versions
19:31:16 <ehird> and fuck the kernel :)
19:31:19 <ehird> i'll use bsdddddddddddd
19:31:32 <oerjan> Hiato1: i am obliged to mention haskell, despite not doing much in it... :D
19:32:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you'd still need to patch a lot of libraries to make this work
19:32:08 <oerjan> also, factor was recently mentioned
19:32:21 <ehird> don't caaaaaaare they can suck my diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick
19:32:24 <ehird> they suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
19:32:29 <ehird> just tell it that /bin is /lib.
19:32:39 <Hiato1> oerjan: right, though I've looked at it. I was thinking imperative, having just discovered Io, but it seems to have slowed to nothing in terms of dev/activity
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19:32:52 <Hiato1> hrmm... will hcek it out
19:32:52 <AnMaster> ehird, at the very least you need to patch the build system and some files to do that.
19:32:58 <ehird> Hiato1: factor is quite imperative, but stack based
19:33:03 <ehird> haskell is fun though.
19:33:16 <Deewiant> D is traditional-style imperative
19:33:17 <ais523> yay, concatenative langs
19:33:22 <ehird> erlang is not nice >:(
19:33:38 <ais523> also, you should learn Prolog if you never have done before
19:33:38 <AnMaster> Hiato1, concurrent and easily distributed. Functional language.
19:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you just hate it because I like it.
19:33:51 <ais523> I think every programmer deserves to know Prolog, even if they never use it or don't like it
19:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I've disliked erlang for a while
19:34:08 <ehird> its concurrency model isn't great imo.
19:34:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so I should learn haskell just to watch you hate it.
19:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, better than shared memory at least.
19:34:20 <ehird> AnMaster: are you listening to me?
19:34:21 <Hiato1> hrm.. well.. not exactly writing a complex system, just looking for romething fun to play with
19:34:27 <ehird> i don't give a damn about what languages you use
19:34:32 <ehird> and yes, I do, several
19:34:41 <ais523> Hiato1: definitely I'd recommend Prolog, then, making a complex system in it probably wouldn't work well
19:34:56 <ehird> evidently you're -not- listening
19:34:57 <ais523> but just like Perl's good for text-processing one-liners, Prolog's good for puzzle-solving ten-liners
19:35:09 <AnMaster> I guess stm is short for statement.
19:35:23 <Deewiant> Software Transactional Memory?
19:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I googled stm. Gives "STM - STMicroelectronics N.V. (ADR) (NYSE)"
19:35:38 <AnMaster> and "Société de transport de Montréal - [ Translate this page ]"
19:35:38 <Hiato1> ais523: ok, great. But it clumsy and over complex for normal tasks, right? I mean, that would be nice
19:35:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you've told me to JFGI for things that don't give a relevant first result and complained when I complained
19:35:55 <ehird> so there it stands
19:36:04 <ais523> Hiato1: it's a bit wordy when trying to do normal tasks, and the standard library isn't all that good, but it's not terrible
19:36:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you did that first though.
19:36:30 <AnMaster> So was just following your style
19:36:47 <AnMaster> ehird, at least I never linked non-existent wikipedia articles.
19:36:47 <Hiato1> ais523: ok, sounds promising. Know any good resources or should I ask "the g"?
19:37:22 <ais523> Hiato1: it helps to have someone who knows the language to learn it from, IME
19:37:38 <ais523> you can grab a compiler+interpreter+REPL like gprolog without much trouble, though
19:37:52 <Hiato1> ais523: right, so IRC channel's the way to go then
19:38:27 <ais523> you'll want to grab the docs for your interp, just to remember the names of standard library stuff that you use
19:38:39 <ais523> or just write them by hand, almost the whole of Prolog apart from I/O can be written without using the library at all
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19:38:51 * Hiato1 checks out wiki article
19:38:59 <Hiato1> now that's a nice feature
19:39:09 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15 Jan 6 11:54 /usr/lib/libavcall.la -> ../libavcall.la
19:39:21 <oerjan> Hiato1: also, Scala or Ocaml for languages that are combined object-oriented and (impure) functional, with advanced static types
19:40:00 <Hiato1> hrmm.. righty'o but I'm currently intreuged with prolog, Io, and factor
19:40:10 <Hiato1> they all look hideously complex OD
19:40:23 <ehird> Io is very simple.
19:40:26 <ehird> It's also, unfortunately, shit.
19:40:38 <oerjan> Hiato1: well then do scheme
19:40:42 <ais523> I learnt Ocaml for a University project, it's an interesting imperative/functional mix; I'd suggest it isn't a good language to learn, but it's a good language to use once you've learnt imperative and functional concepts on a different lang
19:41:12 <oerjan> ehird: i guess R6RS _did_ get hideously complex?
19:41:17 <Gracenotes> ais523: interesting. some people say it's a good link from imperative languages to more functional ones
19:41:36 <ais523> Gracenotes: I hate to look at the programming style of people who tried to learn OCaml like that
19:41:48 <Hiato1> ais523: right. Well I'm learning functional witn Haskell
19:42:03 <Gracenotes> ais523: heh. Programming style in what language? OCaml?
19:42:04 <ais523> I personally program it almost entirely functionally, just using things like imperative globals or exceptions or whatever when they're more useful
19:42:48 <ehird> I should probably make hirdux.
19:43:02 <AnMaster> strings -a /usr/lib/opengl/nvidia/*/*.so | grep -F 'GCC: (GNU)' | sort -n | uniq is interesting
19:43:10 <oerjan> ais523: well, Ocaml was my first static functional language
19:43:16 <AnMaster> they used lots of different versions:
19:43:25 <ais523> oerjan: did you know a dynamic functional language before that, though?
19:43:27 <ais523> if so, it's not so bad
19:43:30 <oerjan> (i guess i mostly knew scheme beforehand)
19:43:31 <ehird> The installer consisting of making a package manager configuration file that points to /mnt/newsystem as the root and running it with a bunch of packages to install, hopefully :P
19:43:45 <AnMaster> GCC 3.2, GCC 3.3.3 (SuSE), GCC 3.4.6 (altstack), GCC 4.1.1 (altstack)
19:43:53 <AnMaster> no idea what those "altstack" are
19:46:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh, and IWC :D
19:47:58 <oerjan> if i wanted to spoil it for you, don't you think i would have included some actual _content_?
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19:49:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway, I usually read it within an hour after it is updated.
19:50:55 -!- olsner has joined.
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19:52:01 <oerjan> except today i got derailed
19:54:55 <ehird> I suppose making Hirdux wouldn't actually be hard if I compromise with the hierarchy :P
19:55:52 * oerjan interpreted that as "Hurdux", and thought that was a suitably insane idea
19:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you must base it on Hurd.
19:56:48 <oerjan> where the -ux is from linux, not generic unix
19:57:09 <AnMaster> ehird, or at least do something mad like non-matching kernel and user land (exceptions allowed are tools to load/unload/list kernel modules, and some glue code in libc as needed)
19:57:25 <ehird> BSD userland w/ linux kernel is mundane and done before.
19:57:45 <AnMaster> bsd userland, darwin libc, hurd kernel,
19:57:56 <ehird> Hurd is an unacceptable monostrosity
19:57:58 <AnMaster> libc is of course part of userlang
19:58:23 <oerjan> ehird: what are the acceptable monstrosities?
19:58:25 <Deewiant> Patch the binary if you run into problems
19:58:26 <AnMaster> solaris userland, glibc, Plan9 kernel
19:58:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Fun fact: fun thing+fun thing not always = fun thing
19:59:07 * ehird 's slackware greets him with:
19:59:13 <oerjan> cthulhux, with non-euclidean file system
19:59:13 <ehird> Crucifixes are sexy because there's a naked man on them.
19:59:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh, so it wasn't french then
19:59:19 <ehird> Thanks, Slackware!
19:59:27 <ehird> oerjan: speaking of which
19:59:35 <ais523> ehird: that's quite a fortune quote
19:59:43 <ehird> $ # wow, this new oerjanix is modern
19:59:58 <ehird> $ gnuverse-simulator
20:00:03 <ehird> > ;; Oh god it uses Guile now.
20:00:11 <ehird> > (set! fine-structure "a pound of pennies")
20:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that was like months ago
20:00:37 <ehird> > (set! message-style 'old-uppercase)
20:00:40 <ehird> > ;; can't loose that
20:01:39 <ehird> $ cthulhu-scanner # I think we're infected by the sheesh-cthulhu virus
20:02:01 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't care? what bad sysadministration!
20:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I do. But I would do a clean reinstall in case it includes a rootkit
20:02:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I have a far more fun way to fix cthulhus.
20:02:36 <ehird> oerjan: scan results?
20:02:45 -!- WangZeDong has joined.
20:02:46 <oerjan> THERE ARE NO GREAT OLD ONES IN THE SYSTEM
20:02:53 <ehird> oerjan: Well, make some then.
20:03:19 <AnMaster> ehird, /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin
20:03:39 <AnMaster> no clue what it is. But ssh always installs such a file
20:04:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, /usr/share/Ssh.bin on arch
20:04:19 <AnMaster> # file /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin
20:04:20 <AnMaster> /usr/share/openssh/Ssh.bin: DBase 3 data file (507582464 records)
20:04:31 <ehird> that's a big database!
20:04:43 <ehird> oerjan: Well, I'll just assume that the old ones lied and said they weren't there.
20:05:09 <ehird> > (forever (thread (create-universe :old-ones #f :ehird-has-a-million-pounds #t)))
20:05:11 <oerjan> BUT THERE _ARE_ NO GREAT OLD ONES, THIS IS A _NEW_ SYSTEM
20:05:20 <ehird> > ;; By the omega point hypothesis, we are in one of those universes.
20:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, check your account balance
20:05:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Google suggests that it's for smart cards.
20:05:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I'M RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:06:00 <ehird> oerjan: Well, okay, we're clean now.
20:06:13 -!- Guest38386 has changed nick to Mony.
20:06:16 <ehird> > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi))
20:06:17 -!- Mony has changed nick to M0ny.
20:06:28 <ehird> ;; that'll give the mathematicians a fright
20:06:44 <AnMaster> Why not go work on your befunge implementation
20:07:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm planning for cfunge 0.4.1 tomorrow. btw
20:07:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just thought I'd let you know.
20:07:25 <oerjan> POUND OF PENNIES ARE MISSING
20:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, hey. Give them back to him.
20:07:54 <AnMaster> that is where the million pounds were taken from.
20:08:02 <ehird> > (set! fine-structure "million poundsworth of pennies")
20:08:20 <ehird> what can't science do?
20:08:31 <AnMaster> ehird, ^Z would suspend guile not the program right
20:08:40 <oerjan> RAMPANT PENNY INFLATION
20:08:44 <ehird> AnMaster: DO NOT ARGUE WITH GNUVERSE
20:09:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, that was a really bad pun
20:10:11 <ehird> oerjan: i'm scared that the "pi-god" will kill mathematics
20:10:14 <ehird> please provide an update
20:10:50 <ehird> oerjan: (note that i did > (set! pi (dialog "What's it to you?" pi)))
20:10:53 <AnMaster> oh my, we are set for economic jokes
20:11:18 <AnMaster> I'll go code on cfunge or something...
20:11:39 <oerjan> GIANT BULL FOUND IN SPACE
20:12:04 <oerjan> BULLSHIT FORMS PLANETS
20:13:27 <ehird> AnMaster: no more economics
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20:15:34 <oerjan> UNIVERSE ENTERS RECESSION. BULL IMPLODES DUE TO GRAVITY OF SITUATION.
20:16:17 <fizzie> OpenSSH README.smartcard: "To enable -- load the Java Cardlet to the Cyberflex card -- sectok> jload /usr/libdata/ssh/Ssh.bin"
20:16:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually, it might take a day or two more
20:16:37 <AnMaster> depending on how much work I have to do for gcc 4.4
20:16:47 <AnMaster> in case of new warnings or whatever
20:16:53 <AnMaster> gcc 4.4 is still compiling atm
20:17:26 <oerjan> PLANET EVOLVES SAPIENT BEARS
20:18:13 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah.
20:18:50 <oerjan> CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS
20:20:51 <oerjan> MAINLY BASED ON TRADING STAG MEAT
20:22:10 <oerjan> GENETIC ENGINEERING GREATLY INCREASES MEAT PRODUCTION
20:22:44 <oerjan> ALSO KNOWN AS STAGFLATION
20:22:49 <AnMaster> <oerjan> CIVILIZATION FORMS BASED ON BEAR MARKETS <ehird> groan <-- IDGI
20:23:16 <ehird> AnMaster: The terms bull market and bear market describe upward and downward movements respectively and can be used to describe either the market as a whole or specific sectors and securities (stocks).
20:23:21 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_trends#Bear_market
20:24:41 <oerjan> FTL TRAVEL INVENTED. USED TO INVESTIGATE NEARBY BLACK HOLE.
20:24:47 <ehird> For the lose travel
20:25:39 <oerjan> GIANT BULL RETRIEVED, REVOLUTIONIZING MEAT PRODUCTION
20:26:18 <oerjan> UNIVERSE LEAVES RECESSION
20:26:25 * pikhq listens to "Dark Side of the Moon"
20:26:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, sounds like a reference to a TP novel
20:26:50 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like a pink floyd album.
20:26:55 <pikhq> It's a Pink Floyd album.
20:27:11 <AnMaster> I didn't know about that though :P
20:27:22 <ehird> AnMaster: pratchett book: 1976. dsotm: 1973.
20:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is the other way around then
20:27:36 <ehird> and "dark side of the moon" as a phrase is older.
20:27:41 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's not any way around
20:27:43 <AnMaster> or possibly not connected at all
20:29:09 <oerjan> UNIVERSE ENDS IN THE BIG RIP-OFF
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ehird, did you know that the city of "Sto Lat" in the Discoworld happens to be the name of a Polish traditional song. I read some interview with TP where he said that completely unitentional.
20:29:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm surprised you didn't know about the album; it's generally considered one of the most known/significant albums of all time (maybe on that scale for "modern cultural icon" too)
20:29:24 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sto_lat
20:29:37 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever heard of the album
20:29:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Seriously?
20:30:10 <Deewiant> I'm somewhat known for not knowing things
20:30:33 <AnMaster> http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Sto_Lat mentions it too. But not the "unintentional" bit.
20:30:46 <pikhq> It's one of the best-known albums.
20:31:05 <pikhq> It stayed in Billboard's top 200 albums list for about 13 years...
20:31:05 <oerjan> now if sto helit had a hidden meaning we might start doubting him
20:31:19 <ehird> pikhq: it's one of the best known items of modern culture...
20:31:29 * ehird runs xdm. /me's eyes burn out
20:31:32 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, definitely.
20:31:48 <ehird> CRISS CROSS BLACK/WHITE AS FORM OF: GRAY, TORTURE
20:32:58 <oerjan> ah, so "sto lat" means a hundred years
20:33:31 <ehird> "in which the subject is wished a life one hundred years ("sto lat") long."
20:33:37 <ehird> i see the polish don't have very high ambitions
20:34:05 <ehird> He wasn't talking about xdm :P
20:34:10 <ehird> also, xdm IS terrible
20:34:17 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png
20:34:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. Worse than twm even
20:34:20 <ehird> zoom in on that gray
20:34:26 <ehird> it seriously kills your eyes
20:34:29 <ehird> it hurts to look at
20:34:47 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the default bg colour of X with no window manager stared
20:35:01 <Deewiant> Zoom out and it looks prettier
20:35:21 <AnMaster> I don't know what format <color> is in
20:36:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what if you want #E6E6F8 for example
20:36:55 <AnMaster> which is what I prefer for bg colour
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20:38:58 <pikhq> Either that or X11 color names.
20:39:40 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, in my tests cfunge is about twice as fast on that example file
20:39:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, Release build of cfunge with 32 bit cells
20:40:02 <fizzie> "For backward compatiblity" also "#e6e6f8" color specification should work.
20:41:04 <AnMaster> cfunge: 32bit, exact-bounds, concurrency
20:41:13 <AnMaster> hm I should make a build string thingy or such
20:41:24 <AnMaster> so you can get all that info from cfunge -f in one line
20:42:07 * ehird replaces xdm with wdm
20:42:28 <ehird> anyone used icewm?
20:42:42 <ehird> Deewiant: how can I make its menus not require clicking to open?
20:43:27 <Deewiant> Can't remember how to config that
20:44:06 <ehird> IceWM is less Cool-For-The-Sake-Of-Unusability-I'm-So-Minimalist-Yo
20:44:21 <Deewiant> Which might be why I didn't like it ;-)
20:44:40 <Deewiant> I can't actually remember, I had some small issue with each of Ice and Flux
20:45:04 <fizzie> Changing window managers every now and then is good for you; keeps you from getting into a rut.
20:45:30 <ehird> fizzie: why, which do you use?
20:46:07 <fizzie> ehird: Oh, I've been using awesome lately. But I've been through so many I couldn't reconstruct the complete list anyhow.
20:46:39 <fizzie> The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color.
20:48:15 <fizzie> I did consider trying out Ion, but, well, this is directly quoted from Ion's FAQ re Xinerama support: "Xinerama this, Xinerama that, baawaawaa!! Too bad. I'm not going to waste my time rubbing your unecological penis enlargement."
20:48:39 <ehird> fizzie: Tuomov is a retard; he's switching to Windows.
20:48:44 <ehird> Because he had some problems with an old Ubuntu.
20:48:51 <ehird> His blag is quite lollerific
20:49:01 <Deewiant> I wonder what he's going to do with Ion on Windows
20:49:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Run Linux in a VM, I think he said.
20:49:13 <ais523> blag = short for "weblag", the amount of time it takes to access a website due to internet latency?
20:49:24 <ehird> ais523: Let's just say yes.
20:49:58 <Deewiant> ehird: I wonder how running Linux in a WM is supposed to be an improvement over running it natively
20:50:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Why are you applying logic
20:50:11 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The "lavender" X11 color name (#e6e6fa) is probably closest to that requested color. <-- ?
20:50:50 <AnMaster> well that isn't very close IMO
20:51:52 <fizzie> "-- it [the Ion license] is targeted against distributions – the middle-men, the equivalents of the big record companies in FOSSphere – that have become far too powerful, wielding de facto central control over easily installable software --" such vitriol.
20:52:04 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so how is your compiled then.
20:52:24 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: with default options. no change applied.
20:52:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, set the build type to RELEASE and try again
20:52:56 <AnMaster> maybe I should try to figure out how to make that default
20:54:03 <ehird> fizzie: he's also threatened to license it under a license which requires packagers to upgrade it 30 or so days after every release or remove it
20:54:07 <ehird> because debian had a version a month or two old
20:54:27 <fizzie> Yes, well: "The Linux/FOSS distributions are such powerful entities that will abuse authors (and users!) as long as they remain in power."
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20:55:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, by changing to "Release"?
20:55:17 <ais523> ehird: I'm sure that wouldn't be DFSG-compliant
20:55:26 <ehird> ais523: it wouldn't eb.
20:55:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I tend to use ccmake though.
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20:55:43 <AnMaster> should figure out how to make default
20:55:46 <ehird> he said debian would have to move it into the non-free repository, but i'd just leave the old version or remove it altogether
20:56:04 <ais523> even funnier, fork the old version
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20:56:20 <ehird> "(They might not bother: the trend seems to be to force everyone to use Xft shite and blurred fonts.)"
20:56:34 <ehird> this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY!
20:57:00 <ehird> Mm, IceWM+gtk theme mist+Debian is quite comfortable.
20:57:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:57:10 <fizzie> Ion3 is in debian non-free now.
20:57:21 <ehird> If only I could hover on IceWM menus to make them view.
20:58:04 <ehird> Also maybe smooth out the dis— you know, I could rewrite ionwm with gtk in a few hours, probably :P
21:00:26 <ehird> anyone know what that pretty package installer thing is?
21:00:30 <ehird> the more lightweight one
21:00:44 <ehird> ais523: ubuntu's "add/remove"
21:00:55 <ais523> oh, I've known it at least twice
21:00:59 <ais523> but forgotten each time
21:02:05 <ehird> Is the problem Gnome-related?
21:02:07 <ehird> — Ion bug reporting page
21:02:15 <ehird> Did you run any Gnome software in your session (especially gdm or gnome-settings-daemon)?
21:02:16 <ehird> Yes. Remove all Gnome software from your system. Then go to next step.
21:02:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> this just in: fonts that have actual curvature that you can read are BLURRY!
21:02:27 <AnMaster> that is opposite of what you think
21:02:28 <ehird> damn tuomov is funny
21:02:44 <ais523> ehird: gnome-app-install
21:04:58 -!- MizardX- has joined.
21:05:10 <ehird> Maybe Hirdux will end up as Debian + a shell script to install some stuff :P
21:06:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:06:25 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
21:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm about to break IFFI again...
21:07:31 <AnMaster> ais523, to be able to provide useful -v option somewhat like gcc -v to check compile flags.
21:07:42 <ais523> why would that break IFFI? I don't use your main
21:07:52 <AnMaster> ais523, /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/main.c:196: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘CFUN_USER_CFLAGS’
21:08:04 <AnMaster> well I could add some #ifndef IFFI
21:08:21 <AnMaster> so you could skip that completely
21:08:24 <ais523> there aren't any useful command-line options with IFFI as-is
21:08:54 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But you still need parts of main.c. Since some variables are defined there.
21:09:32 <AnMaster> but yes I could ifdef them out when ICK_IS_IFFI or whatever is defined (either ICK_* or CFUN_IS_IFFI should be the name of the define)
21:10:24 <ehird> Deewiant: you know how you said a desktop environment is needless?
21:10:42 <ehird> if you don't have one you get to use 5 billion incompatible setting programs
21:10:47 <ais523> AnMaster: CFUN_ would be fine, define names don't come up in user code
21:10:58 <Deewiant> I don't use setting programs, I use setting files :-P
21:11:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee, that sure sounds fun.
21:11:20 <AnMaster> ais523, CFUN_* FUNGE_* and CF_* are all used in cfunge. Or no prefix at all. Depends on how old that code is.
21:11:27 <Deewiant> ehird: What do you config so much that it matters?
21:11:39 <ehird> Nothing much, but it is irritatin
21:11:44 <fizzie> I find it hard to take this stuff seriously when terms like "the AA fascist movement" are used.
21:11:59 <fizzie> (When speaking of people who like anti-aliasing in their fonts.)
21:12:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I assume he has one of those 300 dpi monitors then
21:12:33 <AnMaster> where AA actually would be bad.
21:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No, he just things edges are edgy.
21:12:44 <ehird> Grr, gksudo sux since you lose theme settings
21:12:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there."
21:12:58 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you running graphical programs as root!?
21:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: synaptic, etc.
21:13:14 <AnMaster> lots of not well reviewed code
21:13:15 <ehird> only as insecure as running a cli program as root.
21:13:41 <AnMaster> (but it is likely to change in the future, thanks to GEM and kernel mode switching)
21:14:00 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: No, no. "200dpi is not enough for blurring not to show. I can see the dots in 300dpi prints. -- You have to embrace the pixels, not act as if they are not there." <-- what
21:14:12 <ehird> AnMaster: He's mad.
21:14:21 <ehird> What's debian's nonfree repository called again?
21:15:01 <fizzie> "You're expected to sacrifice the present on the altar of the future, and to sacrifice personal ergonomics on the altar of fads and techno-high priests."
21:15:12 <fizzie> It is very fontcubeish.
21:15:33 <fizzie> When you antialias, you're sacrificing the present on the altar of the future!1
21:16:56 <ehird> Why is it so ugly?
21:16:56 <ehird> a) It is not. Are you sure you're not on a bad trip from the aqua in teletubbyland?
21:17:52 <ehird> &°·̂‡†̂̀‡̂%7ˆÞt675
21:17:55 <AnMaster> checking for suffix of object files... configure: error: in `/home/anmaster/gcc/build/i686-pc-linux-gnu/libgcc':
21:17:55 <AnMaster> configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile
21:17:55 <AnMaster> See `config.log' for more details.
21:18:09 <ehird> fizzie: man, footnote 1
21:18:19 <ehird> he actually ties antialiasing into being un eco friendly
21:18:48 <fizzie> Yes, they're building separate power plants for all the CPU cycles consumed by "the blurring".
21:18:51 <pikhq> ehird: That's quite impressive.
21:19:40 <pikhq> Also, I suspect that these people have only seen very, very bad anti-aliasing.
21:19:53 <ehird> pikhq: No, he complains about Xft.
21:19:56 <ehird> Tuomov is just insane, man.
21:20:04 <ehird> OS X antialiasing would probably drive him insane
21:20:11 <ehird> OMG IT'S AS CLEAR AS PRINT!! ANTI-PIXEL BLURRING EVIL!
21:20:16 <ehird> ALL MY BOOKS USE BITMAP FONTS
21:20:16 <pikhq> Huh. I was under the impression that Xft actually did decent anti-aliasing.
21:20:26 <ehird> pikhq: Eh, it's alright. Not as good as OS X's.
21:20:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I believe it ignores LDFLAGS somewhere
21:20:42 <ehird> pikhq: Its subpixel rendering in particular is quite horrific
21:21:03 <pikhq> Though OS X handles fonts not designed with it in mind much better.
21:21:21 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc's configure is terrible, you'll go mad if you look at it
21:21:29 <ehird> Freetype handles Helvetica nicely
21:21:34 <ehird> That's about it :-P
21:21:36 <ais523> so much so that even though it did everything C-INTERCAL needed, I wrote my own method of doing it rather than using gcc's
21:21:40 <pikhq> ehird, that's because of patent law.
21:21:57 <pikhq> It can't use *good* auto-hinting, because that's patented.
21:21:58 <ehird> pikhq: I've ran the HIGHLY ILLEGAL IN THE US patched freetype.
21:22:17 <ehird> The autohinter, in particular, produces consistently worse results than the interpreter.
21:22:53 <pikhq> There's a reason I run Helvetica, Bitstream, and Lucida. ;)
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21:25:08 <ehird> I'd better write my nice WM.
21:25:16 <AnMaster> ais523, seems I can set BOOT_LDFLAGS
21:25:28 <AnMaster> and then wait a few more hours
21:25:30 <ais523> there are so many steps in compiling gcc that there are a lot of options
21:25:38 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/install/build.html
21:25:50 <AnMaster> a grep shows there is a corresponding LDFLAGS one
21:26:00 <ehird> Shouldn't be exceedingly hard. Draw a simple border around a window -- mimicking Metacity's Mist theme -- with some simple buttons, double-click-to-maximize behavior and drag-to-move.
21:26:29 <ehird> Then, write a panel application that displays a bog standard menu with blah blah launchers, some application shortcuts and a window list, still with gtk.
21:27:47 <fizzie> Unfortunately, in practice, X.
21:28:02 <ehird> Especially since I want to do it non-reparenting.
21:28:04 <ehird> That could turn out hard.
21:30:30 <GregorR> I'm sorry, but I own patent #54372895472543: "IRC Nicks Beginning with the letters 'G' then 'R'". You will have to change your nick or pay me royalties.
21:31:01 <ais523> IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings
21:31:29 <ais523> yes, although luckily it's more specific than that
21:32:37 <fizzie> "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name.
21:32:44 <ehird> Anyone else have an appreciation for the gtk/metacity theme Mist? It really does make gtk quite the nice.
21:34:53 <ais523> ehird: it's included in Ubuntu Jaunty, but I'm not sure about it
21:35:09 <ehird> ais523: you just can't handle the minimalism!
21:35:24 <ehird> You're, um, sacrificing usability at the altar of the future. I think
21:35:41 <fizzie> Anything with a title bar is not minimalist.
21:35:51 <pikhq> GregorR: I already own patent 0xDEADBEEF: "Nicknames representable only using ASCII", though. You violate that. ;)
21:36:01 <ehird> fizzie: The gtk theme is separate from the metacity one.
21:36:06 <pikhq> Using only, rather.
21:36:10 <ehird> Although my mega wm will imitate the window decoration style; it is rather tiny
21:36:22 <GregorR> I was having weird problems with my credit card, so I went to my bank and they "fixed" it, then I charged something to it, and now they've canceled it X_X
21:36:36 <fizzie> That's one definition for "fixed".
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21:37:59 <ehird> fizzie: have you seen the Mist window decoration? It's just a tiny blue line with the window title and the three ubiquitous buttons as boring white symbols :-P
21:38:06 <AnMaster> <ais523> IBM took out a patent on not using Lotus Notes in meetings <fizzie> "METHODOLOGY AND PROCESS FOR SUPPRESSING DE-FOCUSING ACTIVITIES DURING SELECTIVE SCHEDULED MEETINGS"; quite a name.
21:38:08 <ehird> It's not tinywm minimalist, but it's minimalist
21:38:30 <fizzie> Using Lotus Notes during the meeting is the "de-focusing activity" they're suppressing.
21:38:30 <AnMaster> and doesn't IBM develop Lotus *
21:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: the patent was about Lotus Notes, and how to prevent people using it during a meeting
21:38:47 <ais523> the joke, of course, is that if IBM patent not using Lotus Notes, everyone else has to use it
21:39:22 <fizzie> http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1="20090063996".PGNR.&OS=DN/20090063996&RS=DN/20090063996
21:39:28 <ais523> it's an office suite, I think
21:39:33 <ais523> is it based on OpenOffice? I can't remember
21:39:51 <fizzie> Lotus Notes is e-mail and calendaring and such.
21:39:53 <ehird> Lotus notes is ancient
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21:40:05 <ehird> ais523: 1989 ancient
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21:40:28 <AnMaster> ais523, did they do it as a joke
21:40:42 <ais523> I don't see anything particularly joky about it
21:40:52 <ais523> just because it's possible to joke /about/ it doesn't make it in itself a joke
21:41:12 <ehird> ibm filing a patent as a joke?
21:41:16 <fizzie> But really, what they patented is just a system that lets you automagically (and enforcedly) disable some "distracting" features during meetings.
21:41:24 <ehird> stupidest thing I've ever heard
21:41:28 <fizzie> It's only jokeable if you deliberately misinterpret it; like most things are, I guess.
21:43:16 <fizzie> Patent language is quite a joke on its own, though. "A method for the suppressing computing system activities during a scheduled event, the method comprising: creating an invitation for an event at an event scheduling application executing at a primary computing system, the event invitation comprising an exclusive attendance event acceptance category and a non-exclusive attendance event acceptance category; .." continuing ad nauseam.
21:43:54 <fizzie> "-- accepting the event invitation at the event scheduling application executing at the secondary computing system, where in the instance that the event is accepted as an exclusive attendance event then communication and non-event scheduling application executing activities within the secondary computing system will be suspended upon the initiation of the event, and in the instance that the event is accepted as a non-exclusive attendance event a message is ge
21:43:54 <fizzie> nerated and delivered to the primary event scheduling application reporting that the event has been accepted as a non-exclusive event --"
21:44:05 <fizzie> All that without any punctuation in it.
21:44:17 <fizzie> Wait, there's a couple of commas.
21:45:53 <fizzie> The description parts usually seem human-readable, but the patent-claims-part is like in some sort of crude mockery of English.
21:47:37 <pikhq> Sadly, our patent system has completely and utterly failed at its purpose.
21:47:54 <ehird> pikhq: It's about as misguided as copyright law...
21:48:08 <pikhq> You know, publishing how an invention works so that after some time, it's part of the body of human knowledge?
21:48:30 <pikhq> Yeah, now we just publish some bullshit that could possibly describe the invention and then sue everyone.
21:49:53 <pikhq> ehird: Except that copyright reform would be quite a bit more radical. ;)
22:17:41 <AnMaster> I plan to add some way to get revision too
22:20:25 <AnMaster> Compiled on: Linux 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 (x86_64)
22:20:34 <AnMaster> now to find how to get compiler version from cmake too
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22:47:34 <AnMaster> GCC's preprocessor have computed includes
22:47:55 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Computed-Includes.html#Computed-Includes
22:48:15 <AnMaster> I was looking for an official list of GCC predefined macros
22:48:24 <AnMaster> it seems to define __VERSION__ to what I need.
22:48:40 <AnMaster> but I'm not sure it is official or not
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22:57:07 <psygnisfive> but, ironically, the implementation would be inspired by something from linguistics ;p
22:58:03 <psygnisfive> an expression like the following pseudohaskell: _ ++ "foo" ++ _
22:58:31 <psygnisfive> would become the lambda \a.\b.(a ++ "foo" ++ b)
22:59:06 <psygnisfive> would become the lambda \a.(a ++ "foo" ++ a)
22:59:20 <Deewiant> I think Scala has approximately-if-not-exactly that
22:59:31 <Deewiant> Of course not Haskell syntax, but the _s.
22:59:53 <psygnisfive> the _'s arent supposed to be haskell's "these dont matter" variables
23:00:11 <psygnisfive> rather, theyre a sort of "i dont care about the name of this variable" variable
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23:01:36 <psygnisfive> have some sort of type-shifting operations
23:02:02 <psygnisfive> meaning, whatever type the thing that you give the lambda
23:02:57 <psygnisfive> but _ ++ "foo" has a type-gloss of t (String/String)\String String
23:03:43 <oerjan> erm, not String -> String?
23:04:12 <oerjan> oh some linguist thing...
23:04:34 <psygnisfive> a gloss is just an item-by-item "Translation" of sorts
23:04:59 <psygnisfive> so _ is type t, ++ is type (String/String)\String, and "foo" is type String
23:06:59 <psygnisfive> so the type-shifter consumes the items left-to-right like
23:08:02 <oerjan> well, that (String/String)\String i seem to recall you doing with grammar previously
23:08:37 <psygnisfive> yeah, its CCG directional lambda application notation
23:09:11 <psygnisfive> essentially (A\B)/C is a left-first lambda type
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23:09:59 <AnMaster> "The compiler values a multi-character character constant a character at a time, shifting the previous value left by the number of bits per target character, and then or-ing in the bit-pattern of the new character truncated to the width of a target character. The final bit-pattern is given type int, and is therefore signed, regardless of whether single characters are signed or not (a slight change fro
23:09:59 <AnMaster> m versions 3.1 and earlier of GCC). If there are more characters in the constant than would fit in the target int the compiler issues a warning, and the excess leading characters are ignored."
23:10:31 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.0/cpp/Implementation_002ddefined-behavior.html
23:10:52 <ais523> AnMaster: multicharacter character constants in C exist, but are implementatino-defined
23:11:02 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But why that behaviour
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23:11:12 <AnMaster> why is that specific behaviour useful
23:11:26 <ais523> it's the most common behaviour for a multichar constant
23:11:47 <AnMaster> why is that an useful behaviour though
23:12:19 <lifthrasiir> for example, pushing handprint in funge-98. e.g. ip_push(ip, 'WTF!');
23:12:58 <psygnisfive> so the type-shifter gets to the ++ and says; ok, _ is type t, and ++ is type (Str\Str)/Str, so I have to lift _ to type Str/(Str\Str)
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23:13:44 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I don't do it that way, I have a defined hexdecimal constant
23:13:48 <lifthrasiir> okay, i'm just kidding but such constants are hardcoded to several file formats, for example.
23:14:14 <psygnisfive> once _ is lifted to Str/(Str\Str), it can compose with ++ (Str\Str)/Str to produce something like \x.(_ ++ x)
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23:15:33 <psygnisfive> the _ itself is probably some sort of magic lambda that stays on the outermost periphery of this whole thing
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23:16:26 <psygnisfive> so that "_ ++" actually produces something of the type \M.\x.(M ++ x)
23:16:46 <psygnisfive> but since the _ objects are parsing magic, not application magic, its all cool.
23:17:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: scala & arc do that, but with less ridiculous "type gloss" rubbish.
23:17:28 <ehird> it's a trivial syntactic translation
23:18:00 <psygnisfive> the type gloss stuff is a) not rubbish, and b) just a way to represent the types for describing whats going
23:18:18 <ehird> that's "nice" but also useless, it's a trivial syntactic translation
23:18:55 <psygnisfive> maybe! but im thinking about it in combinatory terms. :P
23:20:58 <psygnisfive> mainly because it has no lambda delimiters to denote the whole thing as a lambda
23:21:12 <psygnisfive> so im not sure how i'd code something to recognize the extent of the lambda
23:23:07 <psygnisfive> i dont even remember at this point why i had this idea. XD
23:23:16 <psygnisfive> but it seemed like something i could use at the time
23:23:35 <oerjan> i recall there were some discussions in #haskell about this
23:24:08 <oerjan> mostly, it wasn't considered worth complicating the language for, i think
23:25:16 <oerjan> (haskell already has sections, which is essentially an implicit such _ at one end of a parenthesized (x ++) or (++ x)
23:25:47 <psygnisfive> the intention was to have a sort of... auto-lambda-izer for arbitrary expressions
23:26:42 <oerjan> it gets really messy if nested, with itself or with ordinary lambdas
23:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can you update IFFI build process to define CFUN_IS_IFFI
23:31:43 <oerjan> like, if you have both _ and _a, and no specific indication which is innermost
23:31:43 <ais523> AnMaster: pretty easily, but not now
23:32:09 <ais523> AnMaster: because it's late and I'm about to go home
23:32:11 <psygnisfive> oh. well, my intention was it'd just be in-order
23:32:13 <oerjan> so _ _a could mean either \_ _a -> _ _a or \_a _ -> _a _
23:32:15 <ais523> and in the middle of conversations with other people
23:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, and do it tomorrow then?
23:33:16 <oerjan> or wait, even \_ -> _ \_a -> _a
23:34:00 <psygnisfive> the magic lambdas just go in order of appearance of the _'s
23:34:30 <oerjan> well i guess the question is where the whole thing starts
23:34:47 <psygnisfive> the intention is that its the whole expression that the _ appears in
23:35:44 <oerjan> ah yes that was another problem for haskell, it would mess with referential transparency
23:35:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm going to commit that then
23:36:09 <psygnisfive> {...} could delimit the magic lambda, i guess.
23:36:10 <oerjan> since you couldn't just substitute in an expression containing _'s
23:37:30 <psygnisfive> a language that takes full advantage of type-shifting and function composition
23:37:30 <AnMaster> ais523, pull from me please :)
23:38:25 <psygnisfive> so that expressions like sqrt + negate 5 == (\x -> sqrt x + negate x) 5
23:39:03 <ehird> psygnisfive: you just invented forks
23:39:14 <ehird> in J, (sqrt+negate)x = sqrt x + negate x
23:39:25 <ehird> well all commands in j are one-char
23:39:27 <AnMaster> ais523, btw since a few days cfunge has an option to disable all floating point calculations. (That is disable all fingerprints using them, core doesn't use it)
23:39:33 <ehird> and psygnisfive, that's EXACTLY your concep.
23:39:36 <psygnisfive> in J you need to use special forked functions, i think, ehird
23:39:53 <AnMaster> ais523, this is of course a step in my evil plan to take over the world of embedded funge. ;P
23:39:55 <ehird> ((verb1 verb2 verb3) noun) = ((verb1 noun) verb2 (verb3 noun))
23:40:46 <psygnisfive> because it should be able to do more complex things
23:40:56 <AnMaster> ais523, it is possible (with advanced options) to get cfunge only to depend on libc now. Dropping need of libm, librt (optional, but previously always used if found), ncurses (likewise before)
23:41:05 <ais523> time to go home, anyway
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23:41:23 <AnMaster> since clock_gettime() is in libc on freebsd
23:41:30 <ehird> psygnisfive: you can do that with just a fork
23:41:30 <AnMaster> and all other platforms I know of
23:41:41 <oerjan> psygnisfive: something like this has been done partially in haskell by creating numerical type class instances for functions
23:41:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, limited output more yet
23:42:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: if you have an apply function you can do it, probably
23:42:04 <ehird> the fork will be ugly but meh
23:42:22 <oerjan> although that's not very generic
23:42:27 <psygnisfive> the interpreter can recognize type-mismatches, and lift around them
23:42:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: the problem is that your ideas, while sounding nice, often come down to trivial transformations :)
23:42:55 <ehird> i attribute this to you being a linguist ;-)
23:43:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, use some complex ones then
23:44:24 <GregorR> <AnMaster> GregorR, limited output more yet // no
23:44:30 <psygnisfive> its not really a simple transformation tho
23:44:38 <oerjan> psygnisfive: well AnMaster is hardly the person to ask about convincing ehird ;D
23:44:45 <psygnisfive> its not a syntactic thing, atleast not at the level of the syntax of the language
23:45:53 <oerjan> psygnisfive: but then you are instead getting around to needing a "sufficiently advanced type system"
23:46:30 <ehird> have I mentioned that dependent types solve every woe
23:47:10 <ehird> permutations of (values|types) indexing on (values|types), truly une beautifule!
23:47:53 <oerjan> psygnisfive: i know that haskell's type system very much _avoids_ trying to deduce alternatives to type mismatches, presumably because it would be unsolvable and/or unbearably messy
23:47:54 <psygnisfive> oerjan, on the offchance that you're interested in the sort of ideas that im basing this off of, check out Combinatory Categorial Grammar
23:48:08 <ehird> http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users
23:48:30 <oerjan> (well with type classes that is)
23:48:31 <psygnisfive> its a minor extension on plain old categorial grammar, which uses a simple directional-application function type
23:48:56 <psygnisfive> see, type-lifting and such are very well defined operations in CCG
23:49:20 <psygnisfive> theres basically only two novel operations in CCG that make it do what it does
23:49:59 <psygnisfive> given a function of type a, you can live to type (a -> b) -> b
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23:50:57 <psygnisfive> the other novel operation in CCG isnt novel to us, its just function composition, but its novel for CG
23:50:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: if you will speak of linguistics without any context, please learn logic too.
23:51:26 <oerjan> curry-howard isomorphism
23:51:28 <ehird> oerjan: yep, and (a,b=>c) == (a=>b=>c)
23:51:44 <ehird> you can do all logic with just forall and →, I think.
23:51:50 <ehird> with _|_ = forall a.a
23:51:57 <psygnisfive> oerjan, yes, sure, i guess. i mean, afaik these ideas themselves arent magically knew, you know, but
23:52:00 <ehird> (and ~a = a→_|_ ofc)
23:52:24 <ehird> a^b = forall c.(a→b→c)→c
23:52:25 <oerjan> ehird: i think calculus of constructions does that
23:52:27 <psygnisfive> i mean, CCG has been around since the early 80s, i guess? and its an extension off of traditional logic as applied to natural language
23:52:40 <ehird> oerjan: what about or?
23:52:54 <ehird> aVb = forall c. ((a→c)V(b→c))→c
23:52:57 <ehird> but that's self-referential
23:54:01 <ehird> aVb = forall c. (a→c)→(b→c)→c, maybe?
23:54:14 <ehird> if you can't satisfy one, do (a→_|_)?
23:54:27 <ehird> yeah, that seems right
23:56:28 <ehird> oerjan: do you have the unicode _|_?
23:56:54 <psygnisfive> oerjan: ftp://ftp.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/pub/steedman/ccg/manifesto.pdf CCG manifesto. lol
23:57:26 <psygnisfive> because theres no fun in using someone elses language
23:58:07 <oerjan> Slereah: ~a is defined using _|_
23:58:46 <Slereah> oerjan : Only if you chose it such :3
23:58:58 <psygnisfive> plus, i dont know if J does what im asking for, so nya. :P
23:59:11 <Slereah> Defining symbols with _|_ means you have to include at least two
23:59:12 <psygnisfive> not like im /asking/ for this, as such, but you know
23:59:35 <oerjan> Slereah: _|_ = forall a.a, said ehird
23:59:41 <psygnisfive> wtf is all this -> and _|_? _|_ looks like the symbol for bottom
23:59:55 <ehird> A ∧ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ (B ⇒ C)) ⇒ C
23:59:57 <ehird> A ∨ B = ∀C. (A ⇒ C) ⇒ ((B ⇒ C) ⇒ C)
00:00:05 <ehird> you're all welcome.
00:00:10 <oerjan> Slereah: i have no idea what that was about
00:00:28 <psygnisfive> wasnt sure if thats what you were talking about or not :D
00:00:34 <oerjan> however you can avoid -> if you let forall have a premise
00:01:03 <Slereah> You could do the Schonfinkel thingy
00:01:13 <oerjan> ehird: P -> Q = forall a \in P : Q
00:01:27 <oerjan> that's what CoC does iirc
00:01:52 <oerjan> Slereah: i'm not unicode clean
00:02:48 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:03:09 <ehird> Using the definition of xor:
00:03:09 <ehird> (A ⊕ B) = (A ∧ ¬B) ∨ (¬A ∧ ¬B)
00:03:13 <ehird> A ⊕ B = ∀C. ((∀C. (A ⇒ ((B ⇒ ⊥) ⇒ C)) ⇒ C) ⇒ C) ⇒ (((∀C. ((A ⇒ ⊥) ⇒ (B ⇒ C)) ⇒ C) ⇒ C) ⇒ C)
00:03:18 <ehird> Delightfully verbose.
00:03:42 <Slereah> f(x) |^x g(x) = forall x. f(x)|g(x)
00:04:21 <ehird> http://pastie.org/465557.txt?key=nevd9omyyjsa2nvbn4g
00:04:40 <ehird> oerjan: do you know why that xor is so verbose?
00:04:44 <ehird> i'd expect it to be shorter
00:04:53 <oerjan> ehird: CoC logic is intuitionistic, so A -> B is _not_ (¬A \/ B)
00:04:54 <ehird> i suppose it has some redundant clauses
00:05:54 <oerjan> i don't think xor is a particularly intuitive operation :D
00:06:29 <ehird> oerjan: now to translate that to haskell
00:09:24 <ehird> type Bottom = forall a. a
00:09:24 <ehird> type Not a = a -> Bottom
00:09:25 <ehird> type a `And` b = forall c. (a -> (b -> c)) -> c
00:09:27 <ehird> type a `Or` b = forall c. (a -> c) -> ((b -> c) -> c)
00:09:29 <ehird> type a `Xor` b = (a `And` Not b) `Or` (Not a `And` b)
00:09:31 <ehird> now to prove modus ponens
00:09:47 <oerjan> huh so that's what wolfram looks like http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8026331.stm
00:10:09 <coppro> looks like my math teacher
00:10:27 <oerjan> i had imagined him rather more maniacal, with huge hair
00:10:47 <Slereah> That he finally solved his problem made him so horny
00:10:57 <Slereah> He gave him his special "wolfram prize"
00:11:38 <oerjan> no dice, wolfram only breeds with CAs
00:12:06 <ehird> dammit, modus ponens doesn't type yet
00:12:25 <ehird> oh, trivial mistake
00:13:23 <ehird> Slereah: translated my implies-and-bottom logics to haskell
00:13:59 <ehird> Slereah: oerjan: http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=4466
00:14:12 <Sgeo_> "How old are you now? You're 20?" "Yes" "You've hit the double-digits!"
00:16:46 <Sgeo_> ehird, as of today
00:17:00 <ehird> Sgeo_: The world would start making a lot more sense if I stopped viewing 20 as a bastion of maturity.
00:17:18 <oerjan> i'm 38, and definitely not mature
00:17:34 <Sgeo_> ...did you just say that I'm immature?
00:17:50 <ehird> Sgeo_: Mmmmmaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyynooooooooyyyyyyyyyybe.
00:18:34 <ehird> Ssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeintercourse.
00:19:10 * pikhq has another ~year to go before hitting 20.
00:19:12 <ehird> oerjan: say, how could I implement a boolean with this?
00:19:13 <oerjan> seintercourse? sorry i don't speak french that well
00:19:50 <ehird> I'm trying to define (type Set a = a -> Bool), 'cept without using Bool since that's against the rules
00:19:52 <oerjan> well the system F definition is something like
00:20:30 <ehird> oerjan: right but that's sort of tautological
00:20:43 <ehird> since there aren't really distinct a's in the type system, right?
00:21:33 <oerjan> that's too subtle for me at this time, i'm about to go to bed
00:23:45 <ehird> although that's not really conditional any more
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00:55:39 <ehird> pikhq: what do you use for helvetica on linux btw? i could convert the os x font, but...
01:03:29 <pikhq> Argh. So *that's* why I don't use Helvetica.
01:03:37 <pikhq> Oh, Helvetica's installed alright...
01:03:42 <pikhq> The bitmap font. Ick.
01:04:15 <pikhq> You could probably just use the OS X font.
01:04:17 <ehird> pikhq: AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
01:04:23 <ehird> And yeah, but OS X fonts generally lack hinting.
01:04:35 <ehird> Because OS X's text rendering doesn't need it :P
01:04:49 <ehird> Probably finding a Windows one would be best
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01:05:22 <ehird_> so I got debian all how I like it, hooray
01:05:56 <ehird_> but more or less does!
01:06:08 <ehird_> at least I think more or less does.
01:06:15 <ehird_> hmm, xchat-gnome could do with more line spacing
01:08:49 <ehird_> Let's try this "smuxi" client.
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01:13:07 <pikhq> I, myself, am partial to irssi.
01:13:55 <ehird_> pikhq: I'd be all over irssi if it had a GUI frontend.
01:14:12 <ehird_> As it is, I have an objection to mimicking a restricted GUI on top of VT terminal codes...
01:14:51 <pikhq> What is this "GUI" of which you speak?
01:15:16 <ehird_> pikhq: An attitude typical of many unix users, who should be sent back to the 80s. :)
01:16:07 <ehird_> Netcraft confirms it: Smuxi is nice.
01:16:14 <pikhq> Okay, so I'd be using an actual terminal instead of a psuedoterminal.
01:16:22 <Slereah> They should be sent back to the 50's.
01:16:29 <Slereah> To program by rerouting wires.
01:16:31 <pikhq> Oh, and I'd be using the OS that inspired UNIX-HATERS.
01:16:40 <ehird_> pikhq: Or a lisp machine.
01:16:45 <ehird_> You could actually buy them those days.
01:17:00 <pikhq> Oh, *God*... UNIX-HATERS would be full of perfectly valid points!
01:17:04 <pikhq> ehird_: Oh, right.
01:17:31 <pikhq> Except that many of the points are becoming increasingly moot unless you want them to not be.
01:17:50 <pikhq> Eh, 'tis the Unix way.
01:17:58 <pikhq> But oooh. A Lisp machine.
01:18:02 <pikhq> Buckey bits and Emacs. :)
01:18:35 <ehird_> The 80s was great for computers; bad for music, hairstyles.
01:19:17 <pikhq> Oh, I dunno about it being bad for musi... Oh, wait. *80s*.
01:19:31 <pikhq> That decade that my music collection almost entirely skips.
01:19:57 <pikhq> (I have some Styx. That's about... It, as far as the 80s go)
01:20:14 <AnMaster> wolfram alpha says "Launching May 2009"
01:20:14 <ehird_> pikhq: On December 31st, 1979 at 23:59:59 -- specifically, one planck time before January 1st -- the world's collective music lobe was knocked out in a freak accident.
01:20:19 <AnMaster> is there any info on when in May
01:20:21 <ehird_> It is well known that it takes 10 years, precisely, to grow back.
01:20:28 <AnMaster> since it is the second may now
01:21:09 <pikhq> ehird_: And it still needs at least two decades to recuperate.
01:21:35 <ehird_> AnMaster: i do not know
01:25:08 <ehird_> http://imgur.com/Gcy.png Yum.
01:25:13 <ehird_> (Sans tiny resolution due to VMity.)
01:25:21 <ehird_> Modulo, not sans, that is.
01:26:08 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood: Pray tell, how is it shitty?
01:26:31 <ehird_> The future of unergonomical pseudo-leetness, yes.
01:26:40 <ehird_> I'm not one for inhumane interfaces
01:27:40 <AnMaster> (yes I was doing it on my old pentium3)
01:28:13 <Slereah> You are both an idiot and a glutton for punishment
01:29:01 <AnMaster> Slereah, I just didn't want it on my main desktop
01:31:41 <ehird_> http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/63227281/Helvetica.ttf?tab=summary
01:32:30 <ehird_> Windows Helvetica TTFs, useful for Linuxing.
01:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird, don't you have those on OS X
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01:32:59 <ehird_> AnMaster: OS X fonts lack hinting, and often are tuned for just OS X's font rendering
01:33:03 <ehird_> Windows fonts are closer to Linux
01:33:33 <ehird_> Now how do I install these painlessly?
01:35:19 <ehird_> go to fonts://, drag in
01:36:23 <pikhq> Stick them in ~/.fonts
01:37:26 <ehird_> pikhq: that's what it does
01:37:29 <ehird_> I'd prefer system-wide though :(
01:38:02 <pikhq> As root, stick it in /usr/share/fonts/
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01:38:49 <ehird_> pikhq: that contains subfolders truetype, type1 and X11
01:39:04 <ehird_> Does /usr/local/share/fonts work, I wonder?
01:39:11 <pikhq> It might. Worth trying.
01:39:52 <AnMaster> ehird_, why do OS X ones lack hinting
01:40:04 <ehird_> because OS X doesn't hint
01:40:15 <ehird_> its rendering is accurate enough not to
01:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, becuase of high res screen
01:40:38 <ehird_> because the font rendering is better :P
01:41:26 <ehird_> pikhq: how do I add a directory to fontconfig's list?
01:41:34 <ehird_> it doesn't look at them :<
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02:47:29 <rabideejit> I thought of a new language. It's one of these cheesey thematic languages.
02:48:15 <rabideejit> It should be called JUSTICE. It should read like a court transcript.
02:48:17 <GregorR> We'll be expecting your submission to http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ promptly :P
02:48:48 <GregorR> Have an implementation, or is it still in the design stage?
02:49:37 <rabideejit> Well, I'm trying to think of an interesting foundation for the language. While loops etc seem rather dull. Perhaps some sort of combinatory logic would be good.
02:49:48 <rabideejit> The basic idea is it should read like a court transcript.
02:49:57 <rabideejit> Actually, I'm a little pissed, it's coming back to me
02:50:08 <rabideejit> What it is is: it's the lambda calculus
02:50:19 <rabideejit> The evidence presented at the trial represents the bound variables
02:50:57 <rabideejit> Named functions can be called by someone in the court saying that there's precedence from another trial...
02:52:59 <rabideejit> Haha. I'm not sure -- they could be used for conditionals, but I think that would make the syntax weird -- My major problem is that in court transcript, I don't think you get to see the minutes of the juri
02:53:37 <pikhq> rabideejit: You do get the jury's results, however.
02:53:45 <pikhq> Obviously, the jury should be for input and output.
02:54:00 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah, but you only get the results once.
02:54:34 <pikhq> Hrm. I guess this is a kangaroo court, then.
02:55:54 <rabideejit> perhaps kangaroo would be a good name for the language
02:56:17 <pikhq> A kangaroo court is show trial.
02:56:28 <pikhq> Or, rather, the court running the show trial.
02:58:10 <rabideejit> Anyway, I have to sleep. Your feedback is excellent. I shall return with tidings of the progress. Goodbye!
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15:07:58 <ais523> oklopol597: link to the logs
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16:00:35 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea why gcc generates .eh_frame sections in the ELF binaries when compiling C programs. As far as I understood it, it is used for unwinding in case of exceptions but none of the -fno-exceptions -fno-unwind-tables and so on seems to remove them
16:01:02 <ais523> err, no, I ignored all the exception-handling stuff when doing gcc-bf
16:01:06 <ais523> so it almost certainly doesn't work for C++
16:01:22 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but why is it generating them for C!?
16:01:38 <ais523> are they just debug data, I wonder?
16:02:16 <ehird> i think that Debian's fontconfig has less illegal-in-US subpixel stuff than ubuntu's...
16:02:46 <ais523> Ubuntu's European, so doesn't care about the illegal-in-US stuff when it's legal everywhere else
16:02:50 <ehird> OTOH, debian have special non-US repositories
16:02:55 <ehird> for all mirrors other than the US ones
16:03:02 <ehird> so I wonder if they have the illegals?
16:05:08 <AnMaster> ah I finally made it reduce the the .eh_frame segment to a few bytes. Byt instead it grew the .text segment with 64 bytes?
16:05:50 <ais523> anyway, I spent this morning writing an Underload interpreter
16:06:04 <ais523> which is pretty fast, it's only about 20% slower than programs generated from the ehird/me Underload compiler
16:06:16 <ais523> and I intend to expand it to handle Underlambda some time later
16:06:54 <ehird> ais523: you know how you use noscript to get rid of annoyances and be more secure? it's adware, and uses obfuscated code to further this end: http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users
16:07:12 <ais523> ehird: yes, I'm reading the story atm
16:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, this makes no sense: http://pastebin.ca/1410386
16:07:19 <ais523> but I never visit the noscript homepage
16:07:27 <ais523> I went and blocked that through about.config ages ago
16:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, difference was adding -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables as well
16:07:41 <ehird> ais523: you still have obfuscated code designed to subvert adblock plus running on your FF instance
16:09:39 <ehird> 16:08 ski expects `mod n 0 = n' .. :/
16:09:51 <GregorR> ais523: SO SHOW US THE GOODS
16:11:06 <ehird> " wget http://keithp.com/~keithp/truetype.tar.gz
16:11:06 <ehird> (and wait... it's about 3 megs ;)"
16:11:27 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1410392
16:12:11 <ehird> ais523: I like how the compiler is infinitely clearer.
16:12:27 <ais523> what makes you think that?
16:12:33 <GregorR> ais523: You realize that newlines and comments don't make the interpreter run slower, right? X-P
16:12:39 <ehird> err ... have you read that interpreter, ais523?
16:12:45 <ehird> the compiler is a trivial transformation for 90% of it
16:12:53 <ehird> the interpreter has bitshift rubbish
16:12:58 <ehird> and int_least32_bigger_t
16:13:01 <ais523> and the bitshift's implementing utf-8
16:13:04 <ehird> and big_least_32_bigger
16:13:12 <ehird> ais523: err ... why?
16:13:19 <ehird> Underload is ASCII...
16:13:25 <ais523> ehird: err, what makes you think that/
16:13:39 <ehird> ais523: you didn't disagree when my compiler used ascii...
16:13:49 <ehird> and because it uses no non-ASCII characters
16:14:29 <ais523> well, in Underload the meaning of codes above 128 is irrelevant
16:14:52 <ais523> in Underlambda it isn't, and I'm trying to get the compiler to do both
16:15:23 <ais523> anyway, anyone complaining about a lack of newlines in that obviously doesn't like Python, it's indented exactly the same way
16:16:06 <ehird> ais523: or maybe they think different languages deserve different styles
16:16:14 <ehird> also, python uses 4-space indents
16:16:20 <ehird> precisely because it'd be impossible to read with 2-space indents
16:16:24 <ehird> since everything would munge together
16:16:32 <ais523> just resize spaces in your editor
16:16:57 <Deewiant> ehird: Noscript was already updated to remove that Adblock Plus filter subscription.
16:17:44 <GregorR> !underload (Hello, world!)S
16:17:55 <GregorR> Again with the not compiling.
16:18:01 <GregorR> Again with the not compiling.
16:18:02 <GregorR> !underload (Hello, world!)S
16:18:03 <EgoBot> Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile]
16:18:14 <ais523> you need to give -o for Underload
16:18:17 <ais523> or invoke with the name derlo
16:18:48 <GregorR> !underload (Hello, world!)S
16:18:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Still doesn't stop it being shady. I wouldn't struct it anyway.
16:19:56 <ais523> !underload (a(:^)*S):^
16:20:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Next stop: Missing the point
16:20:30 <ehird> !underload (:aSS):aSS
16:20:48 <ais523> it optimizes tailcalls, so that'll just run until it runs out of time
16:21:00 <ehird> my compiler optimized tailcalls too :P
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16:23:34 <GregorR> "Click Here now http://embryogenesiswatches.cn"
16:25:17 <ais523> ehird: my interp's a lot more memory efficient than your compiler, though
16:25:32 <ais523> !underload ((+)S:*:^):^
16:25:32 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
16:25:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: Next stop: Missing the point <-- I clearly see what ehird meant there
16:25:49 <ais523> ehird: try that program on your compiler, I bet it won't get nearly that far
16:25:51 <AnMaster> because the idea is good. And it used to be good at least.
16:26:08 <ehird> ais523: er, what? It would run forever.
16:26:11 <ehird> I optimized tail calls.
16:26:16 <ais523> ehird: look more carefully at it
16:26:20 <ais523> it uses exponential memory
16:26:29 <ehird> Shrug. Then you need exponential memory.
16:26:31 <ais523> although constant callstack space, it uses exponential data-stack space
16:27:09 <fungot> +++++++++++ ...too much stack!
16:27:15 <ehird> http://www.oyhus.no/SubLCD.html this is pretty cool
16:27:25 <AnMaster> that was very quick to give that error in fungot
16:27:26 <fungot> AnMaster: ' of course they answer to their names? is it particular or universal? perhaps looking-glass milk isn't good to fnord oh, oh, hear!" cried sylvie, in a melancholy voice. ' it's very provoking,' humpty dumpty cried, breaking into a sudden passion. ' you've only a few inches high, and was gone in a moment.
16:27:52 <AnMaster> that is a very good summary of the book fungot
16:27:52 <fungot> AnMaster: " oh, don't go on like that!'
16:28:19 <ais523> hmm.... thutubot doesn't like exponential programs
16:28:25 <ais523> it should have hit the too much stack warning already...
16:28:31 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't it have a limit
16:28:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, and it should have reached it by now
16:28:51 <thutubot> ++++++++++ ...too much memory used!
16:29:05 <ais523> nah, the limit's obviously just a bit too high
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16:32:30 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, any idea why gcc generates .eh_frame sections in the ELF binaries when compiling C programs. [...] <<< obviously it's for framing canadians.
16:32:56 <ehird> http://www.oyhus.no/Monitors6.html Holy. Fuck.
16:33:31 <ehird> AnMaster: " I recently threw them away, since they used so much current that they often blew the house fuses and aborted the server. "
16:34:08 <ehird> it's a horrible xinerama setup
16:34:15 <ehird> xinerama would work with monitors without any borders :P
16:34:55 <AnMaster> ehird, where on the page is it
16:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, not the same page on it that you linked though. meh
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16:38:05 <AnMaster> there, disabled noscript. Disabled javascript.
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16:50:28 <oerjan> <ehird> 16:08 ski expects `mod n 0 = n' .. :/
16:50:47 <oerjan> that _is_ the most logical definition if you make it defined
16:51:06 <oerjan> since k + 0*m = n has only one solution k
16:51:35 <ehird> er, it has no solutions, no?
16:52:13 <oerjan> of course it has no solution fulfilling the expected inequality 0 <= k < n
16:52:24 * ais523 tries to figure out whether nobody being able to read my Underload interp is a good thing
16:52:45 <oerjan> ais523: i haven't tried yet
16:53:11 <ais523> I spent hours debugging the GC this morning
16:53:37 <oerjan> oh it's not written in a language with GC?
16:53:59 <oerjan> ais523: reference counting should suffice
16:54:24 <ais523> just I use the refcounting for other purposes too
16:54:29 <ehird> refcounting is so inefficient
16:54:50 <ais523> not in terms of memory used
16:55:13 <ais523> Underload programs that use memory exponentially tend to only use quadratic memory in derl
16:55:30 <ais523> due to the compression it uses to store thigns
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16:59:06 <oerjan> ais523: sharing subexpressions i assume
16:59:14 <ais523> oerjan: yes, that's how it's done
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16:59:44 <ais523> also, if subexpressions are only used in one place, I modify them when doing ^ or *, rather than creating another data structure to hold the relationship
17:00:20 <ais523> that becomes CAT(a,b) in memory if a is shared with anything
17:00:33 <ais523> if it isn't, I just change the end pointer of a to point to the start of b
17:00:41 <ehird> constitutes about half the things I hear from AnMaster
17:00:51 <ais523> I use UCS-4 internally
17:01:07 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Makes sense. Have you integrated this in EgoBot yet
17:01:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, GregorR's integrated it in EgoBot
17:01:28 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:02:12 <ais523> AnMaster: yes with debug level set 2 or higher
17:02:19 <ais523> lower than that, it skips free at program end
17:02:59 <ais523> ehird: I was valgrinding it a /lot/ to test for bugs
17:03:06 <ais523> more or less every bug in there showed up on valgrind
17:03:12 <ehird> still, a rather pointless thing to ask someone who shows a propgram
17:03:12 -!- coppro has quit (Connection reset by peer).
17:03:16 <AnMaster> ais523, you indention is mixed space and tabs
17:03:45 <ais523> anyway, here's an expression it took over an hour to get working:
17:03:54 <ais523> !underload (((1)S)^):^^
17:04:21 <ais523> that's a minimal testcase for an obscure optimizer bug
17:04:38 -!- coppro has joined.
17:04:57 <AnMaster> ais523, not likely any other interpreter will hit it then
17:05:21 <ehird> ais523: now I have to make a new interpreter/compiler that's really fast
17:05:24 <ais523> well, unless they try to optimise the same way
17:05:25 <ehird> I will do TYPE INFERENCE.
17:05:32 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, your code: tl;drmoi
17:05:33 <ehird> :::*** will be stored as {num,3}
17:05:44 <ais523> ehird: I'm planning to do that too, some time
17:05:55 <ais523> both my unfinished Overload interps optimise numbers already
17:05:55 <ehird> I have patented it
17:06:02 <ais523> I have prior art, so there
17:06:13 <ehird> ais523: Like the patent system ever listens to prior art
17:06:56 <ais523> derl's O((log n)^2) for numbers atm
17:06:57 <AnMaster> ehird, also it is the same as I already do in my brainfuck compiler, optimising +++ and such to set constants when they are known (like cell is known to be 0 before, from a [-] or whatever)
17:06:58 <ais523> which isn't all that bad
17:07:11 <ais523> that's in memory, it's O(n) in actual processing for the same reason as brainfuck
17:07:16 <ehird> that is not even close to the same
17:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. "Optimising sub-optimal esolang representations for numbers into efficient representations"
17:08:09 <AnMaster> yes it covers church numerals too
17:08:58 <AnMaster> in fact, it would include constant folding in any esolangs too
17:10:51 <ais523> AnMaster: if you want to concatenate two linked lists
17:10:59 <ais523> then you set the last pointer in the first one to point to the start of the second
17:11:08 <ais523> it only works if nothing else is using the first one, though
17:11:17 <ais523> that saves a bit of memory, I was more paranoid about memory usage than speed for some reason
17:11:40 <AnMaster> I mean, I have done that in programming before. And never knew what it was called.
17:12:04 <AnMaster> ais523, it saves speed too doesn't it
17:12:15 <ais523> probably, but I haven't profiled
17:12:21 <ais523> it avoids the need to malloc
17:12:30 <ais523> but it requires a while loop to find the end of the list
17:12:31 <AnMaster> I mean you only have to traverse the first list, so O(n) (unless you already have a pointer it's end, in which case that is O(1))
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17:12:42 <ais523> yep, but the other way's O(n) too
17:12:47 <ais523> the question is which is faster on a typical list
17:13:10 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't the other way be copying the linked list, AND finding the end of one of them.
17:13:21 <AnMaster> Thus being O(n) too indeed (I think)
17:13:23 <ais523> the other way is to do a lazy cat
17:13:31 <ais523> which is what I do when the first list is shared and so can't be modified
17:13:46 <ais523> I create a cat element in memory, and evaluate it later when the first list has already been consumed
17:13:52 <ais523> so the first list doesn't need copying
17:13:57 <ais523> as it's already gone by then
17:14:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well compared to that, lazy cat should be faster right?
17:14:37 <AnMaster> where do you store this lazy cat
17:14:38 <ais523> I suspect lazy cat will be faster on large lists, certainly instantaneously
17:14:41 <ais523> but it produces more memory
17:14:45 <ais523> and it's stored on the heap
17:14:55 <ais523> I'm wondering if lazy-catting everything would make memory usage a higher computational order
17:14:59 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant, how do you check in the code for a lazy cat situation
17:15:02 <ais523> which could make speed a higher computational order
17:15:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it's in the big switch, look for case CAT:
17:15:22 <ais523> and then I have the zero stack
17:15:31 <ais523> which is a stack of pointers to use instead if you hit a null pointer
17:15:38 <ais523> lazy cat's implemented in terms of it
17:16:08 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you store it relative the first list
17:16:23 <AnMaster> "<ais523> I create a cat element in memory, and evaluate it later when the first list has already been consumed"
17:16:24 <pikhq> Obviously, this lazy cat is stored right next to Einstein's cat with a long tail.
17:16:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it has a pointer to the first list and the second list
17:16:33 <AnMaster> I may have misinterpreted that
17:16:44 <ais523> once it's evaluated, it returns the first list, and pushes a pointer to the second on the zero stack
17:16:58 <ais523> then when the end of the first list is reached, it hits a NULL, so it pops the second from the zero stack and keeps going
17:17:26 <oerjan> ais523: hm if you cat n lists together, you only get n-1 cat cells, so as long as you don't use it for empty lists i think you only get a constant multiplier at most
17:17:38 <ais523> oerjan: I don't use it for empty lists
17:17:52 <ais523> but you can end up catting the lazy cats themselves
17:17:55 <ais523> and you end up in a big lazy glob
17:17:59 <ais523> which is why I think it might blow up
17:18:28 <ais523> say (x):*:*:* becomes x lazy-catted to itself, that lazycat's lazy-catted to itself, and that lazycat's lazy-catted to itself
17:18:36 <ais523> so you have more lazy cats than actual elements there
17:18:47 <ais523> OTOH, doing that's much more efficient than actually trying to store the number
17:19:00 <oerjan> ais523: um but you cannot use mutation on self-catting, obviously
17:19:26 <ais523> actually, come to think of it, you could; if the second list was modifiable, you could modify that
17:19:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can you do that exponentially. I mean cause that interpreter to create an exponential number of such lazy cats
17:19:49 <ais523> and if the first list was modifiable then, you could force the lazycat at that point and then attach to the forced list
17:19:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure
17:20:06 <ais523> OTOH, it's certainly better than the naive approach, which would be hyperexponential for the same program
17:20:34 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, just by considering what would happen if you forced all the cats immediately
17:20:50 <ais523> !underload ((+)S:*:^):^
17:20:51 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
17:21:03 <pikhq> Spiffy. Just spiffy.
17:21:03 <AnMaster> I thought you meant a program creating hyperexponential number of lazy cats in it
17:21:17 <fungot> +++++++++++ ...too much stack!
17:21:26 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I haven't modified thutubot
17:21:34 <ais523> you can tell that by the fact it hasn't left and rejoined
17:21:40 <ais523> thutu's a compiled language, at least in all known implementations
17:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, it will run out some time soon or what
17:22:01 <ais523> I don't think it's necessarily a bug, just a limit (in this case, memory use) set slightly too high
17:22:05 <ais523> it hits the memory limit first
17:22:12 <ais523> time's measured in commands
17:22:17 <ais523> and Thutu is O(n) slower than anything else
17:22:21 <thutubot> ++++++++++ ...too much memory used!
17:22:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I missed that message last time
17:23:01 <AnMaster> rather. just left 5 seconds before
17:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, tested ick with gcc 4.4 yet
17:24:43 <ais523> I suspect it will work, though
17:24:59 <ais523> given that gcc will have been trying not to break compatibility, and ick's designed to run on anything as it is
17:25:22 <ais523> "If you're using IE, do not be alarmed. This page does not really look like crap, it is only your browser."
17:25:24 <pikhq> GCC tries not to break compatibility, but sometimes compatibility is broken.
17:25:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it does have parts that are gcc specific
17:25:43 <pikhq> (some projects depend on behavior of the optimising pass.)
17:26:00 <AnMaster> unless you changed that recently
17:26:03 <ais523> it depends on ({ }) and a command-line option to gld
17:26:07 <pikhq> For example, ffmpeg won't compile without -O.
17:26:26 <ehird> 17:25 ais523: "If you're using IE, do not be alarmed. This page does not really look like crap, it is only your browser."
17:26:31 <pikhq> Erm. It'll compile, it won't execute at all.
17:26:32 <ehird> that site IS ugly, though, ironcially
17:26:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do they debug it then
17:26:50 <ehird> you can use -g with -O
17:26:59 <AnMaster> yes right. But it doesn't work well
17:27:10 <oerjan> ehird: the graphical version of muphry's law? :D
17:27:11 <ais523> ehird: I'm actually surprised that string only gives one result
17:27:16 <AnMaster> -O0 works a lot better when you are working in gdb
17:27:17 <ehird> ais523: in quotes, ofc
17:27:21 <ehird> yep, ubuntu's subpixel rendering is different and better than Debian's
17:27:25 <pikhq> It is my professional opinion that the ffmpeg developers are freaking mad.
17:27:58 <pikhq> ehird: Probably because Ubuntu's a fork of sid. ;p
17:28:05 <ehird> AnMaster: soon two?
17:28:21 <ehird> pikhq: no -- because Ubuntu doesn't care about breaking US law, just european law
17:28:26 <ehird> it may be in a debian non-US repository
17:28:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. one from that site. One from google crawling the logs for this channel
17:28:38 <ehird> AnMaster: you confused me since tunes are making a new site, supposedly
17:28:46 <pikhq> And Ubuntu doesn't even care about breaking European law.
17:28:51 <pikhq> Just South African law. ;)
17:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, with spiffy GUI for the logs
17:28:58 <ehird> Canonical aren't a south african country
17:29:01 <ais523> pikhq: their main servers are in Europe
17:29:03 <ehird> AnMaster: the logs are not a part of the tunes project...
17:29:08 <ais523> ehird: they aren't even a european country
17:29:10 <pikhq> Oh? Guess I'm wrong.
17:29:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the tunes project is mainly the OS project
17:29:13 <ais523> although that would be impressive
17:29:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you failed to detect the sarcasm...
17:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, where are they a company then
17:29:43 <ehird> AnMaster: people, as a rule, can't detect sarcasm without any hints that it would be sarcasm -- i.e. it could easily be perfectly serious -- and that is not funny at all
17:29:53 <ehird> since, y'know, we're not psychic
17:30:09 <ais523> AnMaster: Europe, they just aren't a country
17:30:24 <ais523> the main server's in the UK, although that doesn't mean the company is of course
17:30:27 <ehird> ais523: heh, country XD
17:30:30 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I mentally corrected the typo
17:30:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but my sarcasm is detectable
17:30:44 <ehird> AnMaster: i disagree, since others have detected it
17:30:53 <ehird> 17:28 AnMaster: ehird, with spiffy GUI for the logs
17:30:54 <ehird> 17:28 AnMaster: or what
17:30:59 <ehird> @anyone: does this smell even slightly of sarcasm to you?
17:31:43 <ais523> it is potentially sarcasti
17:31:48 <ais523> but you can't tell without more context
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17:34:07 * ehird concludes that Debian, if it has a non-US nice freetype, is his best choice.
17:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hyperexponential == "like exponential but with the hyper operator" right? I can only find "hyperexponential distribution" which seems to be a slightly different concept
17:35:49 <ais523> AnMaster: something that blows up faster than exponential
17:36:07 <ehird> ais523: hyperexponential reaches infinity in finite time, no?
17:36:09 <AnMaster> so not specific to the hyper operator then
17:36:24 <ais523> I may have used the wrong term
17:36:26 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's true
17:36:34 <ehird> Maybe "superexponential"
17:36:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: greek:hyper = latin:super
17:36:52 <ehird> there should be a way to install some of the ubuntu polish on debian.
17:37:05 <ais523> I don't know what happens if you enable the ubuntu repos in debian
17:37:12 <ehird> like the cleaned up system→preferences/administration and the nice wireless/wired connection helper thingies
17:37:12 <ais523> I wonder if it's as disastrous as doing it the other way round?
17:37:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, why are you highlighting *me* about that
17:37:17 <ehird> ais523: almost certainly
17:37:36 <ais523> the connection helper thing is NetworkManager + nm-applet-gnome
17:37:42 <ais523> Debian probably has the packages
17:37:45 <ehird> but yeah, I'd like some of ubuntu's polis without its bloaty feeling and without the goddamn ubuntu logo :-D
17:37:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: <AnMaster> ais523, hyperexponential == "like exponential but with the hyper operator" right?
17:37:54 <pikhq> (don't know if they *still* have that...)
17:37:58 <ehird> ais523: system→preferences/administration cleanup is a godsend though
17:38:02 <ehird> that thing's a maze on debian
17:38:06 <oerjan> that sort of implied you didn't know the basic meaning of the prefix
17:38:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, well hyper == super == "more wow" ;P
17:38:37 <ehird> still, I can handle Debian, prolly
17:38:44 <ehird> esp. since its installation is more flexible
17:38:49 <ehird> so I can do my LVM rubbish for the ssd
17:39:24 <ais523> err, AnMaster used an interrobang?
17:39:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It's slang.
17:39:28 <fizzie> Debian does have the network-manager package, and a network-manager-gnome systray applet.
17:39:31 <ehird> It doesn't mean "crap".
17:39:37 <AnMaster> the correct term is "baroque" for lvm
17:39:50 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't expect it from you
17:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't like the first time...
17:39:53 <ehird> Oh, and to piss off AnMaster:
17:39:56 <ehird> LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish LVM rubbish
17:40:09 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't seen you do an interrobang before
17:40:10 <ehird> fizzie: I wonder if it comes with its desktop-environment packageset
17:40:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't seen you around more than at most half of the days
17:40:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't have Internet at home
17:41:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I know. It doesn't change the fact that you have rather limited coverage of the channel and don't read all the logs.
17:41:12 <AnMaster> (the latter I don't blame you for)
17:41:53 <fizzie> Well, the "gnome" package recommends network-manager-gnome, which would pull in the network-manager itself. But it's just a "recommends", not a "depends" or a "suggests".
17:42:08 <ehird> I'd like to say something CONTRAVARSIAL:
17:42:11 <ehird> I like Compizzzzzzzzz
17:42:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: 50% is more than enough for statistical evidence
17:42:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure. However it doesn't *always* work. As shown in this case.
17:43:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm what is the difference between "recommends" and "suggests" in *.deb based systesm
17:44:14 <ehird> pikhq: do you know if there's a way to tell Debian to use gksudo instead of gksu?
17:44:19 <ehird> Since I want to lock the root account.
17:45:51 <pikhq> No; I don't use a desktop environment.
17:46:04 <ehird> pikhq: What's that got to do with anything?
17:46:09 <fizzie> The "recommends" list is supposed to contain "packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations" while "suggests" should have things that are potentially useful but not in any sense required. So I guess "suggests" is the milder version, in fact. Funny that aptitude orders them depends/recommends/suggests. Well, maybe it's just alphabetical in that sense.
17:46:10 <ehird> gksudo is just a gtk sudo thing :P
17:46:23 <ehird> All Gtk-but-you-know,-rooted apps in debian use it by default
17:46:43 <AnMaster> only GTK app I use on a regular basis is Gimp I think
17:46:50 <AnMaster> possibly there is some other that I forgot about
17:47:05 <pikhq> The only GTK app I use on a regular basis is Xulrunner.
17:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: firefox?
17:47:20 <ehird> anyway, gtk's a fine graphical toolkit.
17:47:40 <pikhq> If you don't have to code for it.
17:47:48 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, no doubting, GObject is a mess.
17:47:48 <fizzie> Debian-installer asks whether you want to use a root account with a password, or whether just to set up sudo. I've no idea about graphical-but-root stuff, though.
17:47:53 <pikhq> Gobject is... Evil.
17:47:54 <ehird> Nothing a bit of abstraction couldn't fix.
17:48:01 <AnMaster> there is no good GUI toolkit if you have to code for it that also looks good
17:48:03 <ehird> fizzie: Does it? It didn't to me. Do you mean the advanced install?
17:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah... Qt is OK to code for... but OTOH it doesn't really have a nice selection of themes.
17:48:29 <ehird> But, Qt 4.4 has QGtkStyle, which renders directly via gtk.
17:48:30 <fizzie> ehird: Well, I've always done the expert install-mode thing, yes. It asks a bit more questions that way, I guess.
17:48:32 <ehird> Which is kick-ass.
17:48:52 <ehird> So maybe Qt is a nice Gtk abstraction ;-)
17:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, except that doesn't work well when I tested it
17:49:07 <ehird> Does it not? Darn.
17:49:18 <AnMaster> buggy for most GTK themes I tried.
17:49:22 <pikhq> And there's gtk-qt-engine. I wonder what happens if you use both of them?
17:49:36 <GregorR> Massive failure I'm thinkin' :P
17:49:36 <AnMaster> the default gtk theme worked ok with it
17:49:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: I thought that Tk had recently started rendering using GTK?
17:50:05 <AnMaster> I might not have hit that version yet
17:50:15 <ehird> as a separate theme
17:50:23 <ehird> Tk has some ways to make it look modern
17:50:23 * pikhq doesn't know; no Tk usage.
17:50:27 <ehird> But not by default, eurgh.
17:50:31 <AnMaster> because the one I have here looks somewhat like.... Motif + CDE + pure X
17:50:40 <ehird> you guys ever used nedit? :-)
17:50:50 <ehird> http://www.nedit.org/
17:50:53 <ehird> very old X11 editor
17:50:56 <pikhq> Guess it'll be in officially in 8.6?
17:51:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it reminded me:
17:51:09 <ehird> http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-1.php
17:51:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: At the time it was written, the main UI toolkit was Motif.
17:51:45 <AnMaster> it still looks bad in the latter one
17:51:45 <ehird> And the less-3Dness :P
17:51:56 <ehird> AnMaster: It looks acceptable
17:52:03 <ehird> I mean, there's not much there to look ugly
17:52:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually I like motif. For the retro feeling it gives to mosiac
17:53:18 <AnMaster> (yes I have a mosaic version which runs on modern Linux and even have some bugs fixed in it, oh and it is set to not display css or scripts inline, just to make it able to render google.com reasonably)
17:54:01 <fizzie> It certainly looks better than, say, xman.
17:54:07 <ehird> fizzie: oh man, xedit
17:54:10 <ehird> you ever used xedit?
17:54:14 <ehird> that thing did SEARCH!
17:54:24 <ehird> i wonder what toolkit it was
17:54:29 <ehird> it's the black and white one
17:54:33 <ehird> with just a two pixel border on buttons
17:54:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I used xedit once. Used defined as ^C
17:54:57 <pikhq> I used to have OpenMotif installed... I can't remember why.
17:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: xedit is perfectly intuitive
17:55:22 <ehird> it's just very very X
17:55:40 <pikhq> Oh, I still do have it.
17:55:40 <pikhq> Why do I have xpdf?
17:55:54 <ehird> pikhq: Evince uses gtk?
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17:56:14 <pikhq> ehird: xedit didn't use a toolkit. It used libX11.
17:56:24 <ehird> pikhq: well, those widgets are in xman too
17:56:30 <fizzie> The "scrollbar scrolls down on left-click, up on right-click, and you can drag it with middle-click" stuff is the horrible.
17:56:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is like in emacs iirc
17:56:50 <AnMaster> but you can change it there I think
17:56:54 <fizzie> xman's linked with libXaw.so.7 here, so I guess it's from Athena.
17:57:03 <AnMaster> never been bothered enough to figure it out
17:57:16 <ehird> AnMaster: xterm is the main offender
17:57:21 <ehird> that's why you should use urxvt.
17:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, actually xterm isn't too bad
17:57:29 <ehird> or gnome-terminal if you're not gnome averse
17:57:32 <ehird> AnMaster: it is for the scrollbar
17:57:36 <ehird> that's exactly the behaviour it has
17:57:47 <ehird> xterm has a scrollbar.
17:57:52 <ehird> you can turn it off but it has one.
17:58:02 <AnMaster> so I guess it is off by default
17:58:08 <AnMaster> I never turned it either on or off
17:59:16 <fizzie> "scrollBar (class ScrollBar): Specifies whether or not the scrollbar should be displayed. The default is ‘‘false.’’"
17:59:22 <fizzie> Of course I don't know if that's the universal default.
18:00:30 <AnMaster> gentoo tends to not change defaults for stuff. And not install customised icons replacing KDE/Gnome/whatever logos with the distro ones
18:02:46 <pikhq> Yeah, it's kinda nice that Gentoo only tends to do patches to, y'know, make shit work right.
18:03:01 <ehird> Debian does that stuff a bit, but OTOH you get a nice desktop that always works together
18:03:07 <ehird> And you can probably replace the debian logoshits.
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18:16:28 <AnMaster> I mean, a logo at the boot or such (though I prefer text bootup) is fine with me. And possibly default desktop background picture. (I'm going to replace it with a single solid colour anyway!)
18:16:36 <AnMaster> but when it gets to the menu...
18:16:54 <ehird> AnMaster: all debian does beyond that is make gnome's menu icon the debian logo instead of the gnome foot
18:17:01 <ehird> which is probably easily replacable
18:17:04 <ehird> i agree they should do less
18:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, can you get the MP foot
18:17:11 <ehird> but it's easily reversible, nothing really permanent
18:17:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It's probably just a png or an svg
18:17:39 <ehird> The gnome foot is ugly anyway, Debian's logo is nicer :P
18:17:54 <ehird> I dunno, that spiral is pretty nice.
18:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but the MP one is pretty isn't it
18:18:16 <ehird> I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
18:19:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you know their foot right
18:19:49 <AnMaster> (I'm never sure when it comes to you)
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18:24:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC! (Or have I said that already today?)
18:25:55 <oerjan> i wonder if DMM is going to rewrite history for very long
18:26:25 <oerjan> (well, apart from the historical themes, for which the answer is obviously "yes")
18:26:27 <AnMaster> also mezzacotta was interesting today. I never heard the word "astrogator" before
18:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: an agoran office for keeping the gate to the stars, obviously
18:27:30 <AnMaster> ehird, spacecraft navigator in fact
18:27:36 <ehird> ais523: do you know how that started btw? It's not the Speakor.
18:27:56 <ehird> Speaker is an agoran office.
18:28:00 <ehird> Agoran spells offices with or.
18:28:03 <ehird> so rulekeeper is Rulekeepor
18:28:03 <AnMaster> Did you mean: speaker Top 2 results shown
18:28:06 <ehird> but it's Speaker, not Speakor
18:28:10 <ehird> and I was wondering why
18:28:13 <ehird> speaker was there from the start
18:28:15 <ehird> so it must be newer than that
18:28:21 <ehird> and I was wondering how it started
18:28:50 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, it's from 1993 to present
18:28:56 <ehird> and a large number of years were lost
18:28:56 <oerjan> ehird: when i was around it was only for -keepor
18:29:02 <ehird> I think the current logs start around 2004, right ais523?
18:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, surely there is a "search" feature
18:29:13 <oerjan> i don't think it was Bankor, say
18:29:13 <ehird> and as I said, pre-2004 logs are lost
18:29:20 <ehird> AnMaster: it's just mailman.
18:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Crappy in other words.
18:29:33 <ehird> it was logged on escribe.com
18:29:38 <ehird> which then promptly died and took all logs with it
18:29:54 <ehird> and you guys think i'm crazy to hate rafb.net :-)
18:30:16 <ais523> rafb.net always takes logs with it
18:30:21 <ais523> for the others, it's less predictable
18:30:37 <AnMaster> I always set expire on any other pastebins when pasting to this channel
18:30:52 <AnMaster> oh and ais523's program above was set to expire I noticed
18:30:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no it wasn't
18:31:23 <ehird> we'll see who's laughing when civilization collapses because we couldn't find the specs to a nuclear anti-destruction shield that were pasted on rafb.net 3 years ago
18:31:44 <ehird> the last action done by humanity? reading the logs where everyone praises its technical prowess.
18:32:24 <AnMaster> yay a 72 KB executable for cfunge *with* the floating point fingerprints.
18:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you get such a small ccbi
18:33:09 <AnMaster> without floating point using fingerprints: 59 KB
18:33:12 <Deewiant> No, even hello world with a non-minimized D stdlib is over 100 KB
18:33:54 <Deewiant> And minimizing the stdlib would result in pretty much C :-P
18:34:51 <GregorR> ARGH, just how much memory does Java WANT X_X
18:35:02 <GregorR> ulimit -v $(( 64 * 1024 )) # not enough for java
18:35:10 <GregorR> ulimit -v $(( 256 * 1024 )) # not enough for java
18:35:37 <AnMaster> -march=native -Os -DNDEBUG -fno-unwind-tables -fno-async-unwind-tables -Wl,-O1,-s
18:35:58 <AnMaster> the key things there are "-fno-unwind-tables -fno-async-unwind-tables"
18:36:08 <AnMaster> even for C code gcc generates unwind stuff
18:36:27 <AnMaster> and even with those I still have .eh_frame and .eh_frame_hdr
18:36:31 <AnMaster> but a lot smaller such sections
18:39:06 <AnMaster> GregorR, err I think it over-allocates
18:39:17 <AnMaster> there is a command line option iirc
18:39:24 <GregorR> Doesn't seem happy still X_X
18:39:42 <fizzie> You can tweak the initial Java heap sizes and such with something like "-Xms16m" to make it start with a 16-megabyte heap; I have no idea what the default could be. Although I guess setting the limit might work just as well.
18:39:51 <AnMaster> -Xss<size> set java thread stack size
18:40:04 <fizzie> Still, it seems to use a horrible amount of virtual memory, not so much resident.
18:40:25 <fizzie> Virtual size of this one java process is 1413696k, resident size 55960k.
18:40:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, found out where the buffer came from btw
18:42:18 <Deewiant> Virtual usage doesn't really matter, does it?
18:42:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, for cfunge running on mycology
18:42:40 <ehird> Virtual memory usage is irrelevant
18:42:52 <AnMaster> after it quit and then still sent it after reconnect
18:44:01 <Deewiant> Running foobar2000 in Wine results in four processes with 3.6 gigs of virtual memory usage
18:44:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, ... question was: have you fixed that issue or not
18:44:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can get a full featured cfunge (32-bit cells, -Os, stripped) in 96 K for x86_64
18:45:18 <Deewiant> Yes, C tends to result in small executables, especially with dynamic linking.
18:45:23 <ehird> Has anyone said they cared yet, AnMaster? :P
18:46:03 <AnMaster> I got a call from Nokia about using it on their phones today. They said something about needing a fingerprint GPRS though.
18:46:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll try static linking, sec
18:46:37 <fizzie> According to /proc/<pid>/maps the Java VM has one exactly 617.5M-sized anonymous mapping, and one 308.75M one. I'm guessing those are some sort of fraction-of-available-memory things.
18:47:18 <ais523> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ais523 ais523 13892 2009-05-02 18:46 derl
18:47:19 <AnMaster> linking errors for 32-bit ncurses hm
18:47:21 <ais523> that's after stripping
18:48:11 <Deewiant> On the subject of file sizes of unrelated things:
18:48:13 <Deewiant> -rwxr-xr-x 1 deewiant deewiant 4669 2009-04-12 22:48 dobelx64
18:48:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's impressive yes
18:48:46 <Deewiant> Stripping increased its size to 4888
18:48:50 <ais523> that's writtten in asm, isn't it?
18:48:55 <ehird> ais523: with custom headers
18:48:56 <ais523> also, how does stripping make something /bigger/?
18:49:09 <Deewiant> strip -s turned 4669 into 4888.
18:49:44 <Deewiant> Start of section headers: 120 (bytes into file)
18:49:47 <Deewiant> Start of section headers: 4696 (bytes into file)
18:49:48 <Deewiant> Start of section headers: 4696 (bytes into file)
18:49:55 <Deewiant> Anyway, that changed, at least.
18:50:18 <ehird> ais523: Right, that's it, I'm writing an optimized underload compirer.
18:50:19 <Deewiant> It also renamed STRTAB to .shstrtab, which adds a few bytes.
18:50:27 <ais523> ehird: optimized for what?
18:50:35 <ehird> ais523: Speed. Memory. Ponies.
18:50:57 <ais523> ehird: are you going to base it on the existing Underload compiler?
18:51:04 <ehird> No. I lost the code to that.
18:51:14 <ehird> I wanna call it overload in reference to overclocking but dammit that's taken :-)
18:51:24 * AnMaster tries on a non-multilib system
18:51:36 <ais523> please make it handle ((+):*:^):^ well
18:51:51 <ais523> you may want to add a ulimit when running that, though
18:52:23 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
18:52:28 <ehird> ais523: (+)(:*:^):^ grows longer, no?
18:52:38 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
18:53:05 <ais523> you can't manage more than about 16 +s that way
18:57:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is larger, because I can't strip that unwind info from the statically linked libraries
18:58:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but a large chunk of it is "useless" unwind info!
18:58:41 <Deewiant> And a large chunk of CCBI is "useless" TypeInfo!
18:59:14 <AnMaster> anyway 865KB for this full featured cfunge, stripped.
18:59:30 <AnMaster> 22 KB is unwind info from linked libraries
18:59:35 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.4.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:32 c:32]
18:59:45 <AnMaster> ais523, were you here when I added that
19:00:10 <ais523> I saw you developing it
19:00:12 <ais523> but not the finished product
19:00:36 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/yVnwkh20.html
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19:14:19 <AnMaster> I wish C had more exact ways to tell the compiler about aliasing
19:14:51 <AnMaster> ais523, rather crude. You can't say "this one will alias exactly this one, might alias that one, and won't alias anything else"
19:15:14 <ais523> yep, splint annoys me about that too
19:15:20 <ais523> because you can't specify aliasing precisely enough
19:15:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and you can't say "this pointer in your parameter list points to a block that is guaranteed to be aligned on a 16 byte boundary"
19:16:04 <ehird> when will people learn that c is fundamentally flawed
19:16:35 <ehird> yes, fundamentally
19:16:40 <AnMaster> For a start, what would you call cobol then
19:17:07 <olsner> at any rate, cobol is even more flawed fundamentally, but that doesn't make C unflawed
19:17:10 <ais523> which cobol, the mainframe lang or the esolang?
19:17:18 <AnMaster> if it is a *programming language* might be harder to know
19:17:26 <AnMaster> ais523, they are the same iirc
19:17:38 <ais523> there's an esolang called COBOL just to cause confusion
19:17:41 <ais523> based on playing cards, IIRC
19:17:53 <ehird> does anyone know why a failed login to a unix system lags a lot before telling you?
19:17:57 <ehird> a security measure/
19:18:07 <olsner> C has like 4 decades of workarounds, libraries, and coder experience to work around the flaws though
19:18:07 <ais523> yep, to prevent brute-forcing via a plugged-in keyboard
19:18:13 <ais523> well, keyboard simulator
19:18:20 <ais523> I think it's exactly 1 second of lag
19:18:25 <ehird> it's grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
19:18:33 <olsner> and bruteforce by telnet, obviously
19:18:56 <ais523> a good security cage is enough to make most unixy systems secure against even physical access, if they can't get through the cage
19:19:07 <ais523> arguably that isn't physical access, though
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19:20:27 <Deewiant> There's a couple-second sleep when the system shuts down after sending SIGTERM, too, even though it could continue early if all processes responded to the SIGTERM
19:21:14 <ais523> of course, if they slowhashed the passwords, there could be another reason for the lag
19:21:24 <ais523> but I don't think most Linux distros use slowhashing by defualt
19:22:03 <ais523> Sgeo: using a hash function that's really computationally expensive to compute
19:22:14 <ais523> so that even if someone gets read access to /etc/shadw somehow, bruteforcing is impractical
19:22:15 <Sgeo> Why would that be done?
19:23:11 <Sgeo> Do any Linux distros encrypt the files with the user's password?
19:23:15 <Sgeo> That would make sense, right?
19:23:21 <ais523> no, because they don't know what it is
19:23:47 <Sgeo> I meant the user's files, not the system files
19:23:51 <ais523> Ubuntu lets you encrypt keyrings, though
19:24:05 <ais523> and if you give the same password for them as your login password, then they'll be unlocked at login
19:24:08 <ais523> if you check the box to let you do that
19:24:18 <ais523> and then the passwords the files are actually encrypted with are in there
19:24:35 <AnMaster> (sorry had to go afk due to an optical failure)
19:24:53 <AnMaster> ais523, both cobol are esolangs IMO ;P
19:25:01 <AnMaster> one also happens to be a mainframe one as well
19:26:50 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL#COBOL_2002_and_object-oriented_COBOL
19:27:55 <AnMaster> <ehird> does anyone know why a failed login to a unix system lags a lot before telling you?
19:28:35 <AnMaster> ehird, but why did it fail in the first place
19:28:52 <AnMaster> you don't typo your password a lot in general
19:33:56 <oerjan> <AnMaster> (sorry had to go afk due to an optical failure) <<< sorry to hear you broke your glasses
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19:37:41 <GregorR> Think plash is secure enough to run arbitrary C code? X-P
19:38:05 <ehird> GregorR: just run them in user mode linux
19:38:18 <GregorR> Yeah, that would be super, boot a UML every time X-P
19:38:29 <ehird> Deewiant: but is massively complex
19:38:42 <ehird> GregorR: Just reboot it when it starts doing weird shit
19:38:43 <Deewiant> ehird: What did you expect, it's C++ after all ;-)
19:39:03 <ehird> Deewiant: technically it's written in haskell
19:39:13 <Deewiant> Yes, but it has to deal with C++
19:39:37 <Deewiant> FWIW it also provides some handy C++-related tools which have nothing to do with running C++, which add to the complexity
19:42:55 -!- ehird_ has joined.
19:43:03 <ehird_> Yep, I still like this client.
19:43:08 <GregorR> !c printf("Hello, world!\n");
19:43:16 <ehird_> !c malloc(4587348957345345)
19:43:25 <GregorR> It still has all the same limits :P
19:43:33 <ehird_> !c printf("%i\n",1/0);
19:44:05 <GregorR> Just for ehird_, I'm outputting stderr to stdout :P
19:44:19 <GregorR> Or, y'know, failing to, whatever.
19:44:21 <EgoBot> <stdin>:8: error: expected identifier or '(' before 'return'
19:44:31 <ehird_> GregorR: Use clang, foo
19:45:00 <GregorR> Argh, where's my stderr X-P
19:45:06 <GregorR> !c fprintf(stderr, "Hello, world!\n");
19:45:06 <EgoBot> <stdin>: In function 'main':
19:45:25 <ehird_> GregorR: Clang is awesome
19:45:32 <GregorR> ehird_: It compiles to llvm, no?
19:45:47 <ehird_> It compiles cfunge, doesn't it AnMaster?
19:45:51 <ehird_> Therefore it can compile everything.
19:46:04 <GregorR> As far as I'm concerned, llvm is just yet one more environment to support ... unless llvm has nifty sandboxing support.
19:46:26 <ehird_> GregorR: You do know that llvm compiles to machine code, right?
19:46:43 <ehird_> It's just an intermediate step in the compilation process.
19:46:46 <GregorR> ehird_: I thought it was a JIT ... >_>
19:46:59 <GregorR> !c system("ls /home/egobot/");
19:47:11 <ehird_> !c system("rm -rf /home/egobot")
19:47:26 <GregorR> If that breaks, it's totally my fault X-P
19:47:33 <ehird_> !c system("ls /home/egobot")
19:47:52 <ehird_> !c system("http://4chan.org/")
19:47:55 <AnMaster> at least svn as of a few weeks ago
19:47:56 <ehird_> !c system("curl http://4chan.org/")
19:48:12 <GregorR> ehird_: That would work if curl was installed X-P
19:48:44 <oerjan> !c system("mv /home/egobot/egobot.hg /home/egobot/boo")
19:48:45 <EgoBot> Supported commands: help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:48:50 <ehird_> !c system("ls /home/egobot")
19:49:00 <ehird_> !c system("sudo rm -rf /")
19:49:12 <ehird_> oerjan: that's not a very oerjan smiley :o
19:49:15 <GregorR> ehird_: You must think that plash is the most useless system ever :P
19:49:22 <ehird_> Gracenotes: But of course.
19:49:39 <ehird_> !c system("telnet irc.freenode.net 6667")
19:49:41 <ais523> more to the point, that wouldn't work even on a completely unsecured system
19:49:56 <ais523> how would you enter the password?
19:50:10 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, so you can coordinate for ick release, plan is to release a new stable cfunge either this evening or tomorrow or soon after. I realised that that -DCFUN_IS_IFFI changed the API so I'm going to increment the API version and make IFFI handle it (so soon you will have to pull from my ick branch again)
19:50:18 <oerjan> !c system("more magic")
19:50:31 <ais523> I wonder how the sandboxing is done?
19:50:41 <GregorR> ais523: http://google.com/search?q=plash
19:51:52 <AnMaster> but I would have to read scrollback then
19:51:59 <AnMaster> instead I'm going to code stuff
19:53:29 <oerjan> !c int i = 42; printf("%d\n", i);
19:54:26 <ehird_> 19:51 AnMaster [n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster] requested CTCP VERSION from ehird_:
19:54:35 <ehird_> ais523 may know it; it's in the debian/ubuntu repos.
19:54:51 <ais523> memorising the whole of the debian/ubuntu repos would be ridiculous
19:55:00 <AnMaster> err, do you call a -DFOO=bar a "macro" or is it macro only if it takes parameters
19:55:04 <AnMaster> I mean, what is the official term
19:55:21 <ais523> !c printf("%d",(int)__LINE__);
19:55:31 <ehird_> AnMaster: Smuxi. It's an IRC client for Gnome.
19:55:36 <GregorR> Oh, right, each #include is on its own line
19:55:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well you are the C expert here.
19:55:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I thought you were
19:55:52 <AnMaster> ais523, not C standard expert!
19:55:56 <ais523> and it's a preprocessor definition, technically
19:56:27 <AnMaster> "[...] must now define the below listed preprocessor definitions to strings with the relevant values"
19:56:43 <ais523> just because a term's used in a standard doesn't mean you have to /use/ it
19:56:47 <ais523> especially when it's unwieldy
19:57:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what would you recommend instead
19:57:39 <ehird_> AnMaster: your sentence is messy
19:57:53 <ehird_> "must now define the below listed" *Brain turns off*
19:58:21 <ais523> AnMaster: put an example there
19:58:26 <ais523> and ask people to edit it to suit their purposes
19:58:53 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 0;
19:59:40 <ehird_> "The application has to be able to decrypt the password in order to authenticate users when they login." <-- >_<
19:59:44 <GregorR> I'm fekking around with it :P
19:59:59 <ais523> !c FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb"); while(!feof(in)) printf("%x",(int)getc(in));
20:01:10 <ais523> !c FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb"); while(!feof(in)) printf("%x",(int)getc(in));
20:01:21 <ais523> hmm, why isn't that working?
20:01:25 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a long list of defines with descriptions. I'll pastebin it so you can find a better way.
20:01:31 <ehird_> !c you lied to me when you told me this was a program
20:01:41 <EgoBot> 7f454c46211000000000203e01000d04400000040000000060120000000000400380804002502206000500040000000040040000004004000000c01000000c010000008000000030004000020000000240000000240000001c00000001c0000000100000001000500000000000004000000004000000bc7000000bc700000000200000010006000c07000000c076000000c07600000020200000030200000000200000020006000e87000000e876000000e876000000a01000000a0100000080000000400040001c20000001c240000001c240000002000000002000000004000000050
20:01:42 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/gmZTe577.html
20:01:48 <ais523> oh, it did work, just slowly
20:01:56 <ais523> that's rather sparse, probably it's the header
20:01:57 <AnMaster> ais523, that is not spell checked at all
20:02:26 <ais523> "Please define the following to string constants:"
20:02:43 <ehird_> Please #define the following as string constants
20:02:52 <ehird_> mainly as instead of to, but #define is clearer
20:03:16 <GregorR> !c int i=1;FILE*in=fopen(argv[0],"rb");for(;!feof(in);i++)printf("%02x%s",getc(in),(i%20)==0?"\n":"");
20:03:17 <EgoBot> 7f454c4602010100000000000000000002003e00
20:03:24 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 0;
20:03:29 <GregorR> Now EgoBot is spamming me.
20:03:39 <ais523> GregorR: yep, it returns multilines in /msg, doesn't it?
20:03:40 <oerjan> !c printf("%d\n", fac(5)); return 0; } int fac(int n) {if (n) return n*fac(n-1); else return 1;
20:03:47 <ais523> and !kill and !ps doesn't seem implemented atm
20:03:50 <GregorR> It'll get d/c'd pretty soon :P
20:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, that misses the point of "you only need to worry if you aren't using cmake"
20:04:19 <ehird_> AnMaster: "If you are not building with cmake, #define these as string constants:"
20:04:23 <AnMaster> "Also any code using another build system than cmake (such as IFFI) must now define [..]"
20:05:35 * GregorR is a little bit surprised that EgoBot hasn't been dropped yet :P
20:06:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood).
20:06:10 <GregorR> It's still spamming the binary at me :P
20:06:13 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:07:41 <AnMaster> GregorR, will it completely send the previous reply before starting next
20:07:45 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
20:07:57 <AnMaster> then I guess I made an error there
20:08:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it answered mine while still spamming GregorR
20:08:07 <GregorR> !c printf("Hello, world!")
20:08:16 <coppro> why is there malbolge? Is it even possible to fit a useful malbolge program in one message?
20:08:24 <ehird_> coppro: !malbolge http://foo
20:08:25 <GregorR> Either that or befunge98 is broken in there right now :P
20:08:42 <ehird_> !malbolge (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O<oLm
20:09:08 <AnMaster> !befunge98 'A aaa**k: aaa**k,a, @
20:09:09 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:09:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, so you don't add linebreaks
20:09:47 <AnMaster> !befunge98 'A aaaa***k: aaaa***k,a, @
20:10:33 <GregorR> I can't see that output easily.
20:10:43 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:11:22 <GregorR> EgoBot does slow everything down by insane degrees :P
20:12:06 <AnMaster> why didn't it output twice before
20:12:13 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:12:18 <AnMaster> 21.10:42 <AnMaster> !befunge98 aaaa***. @ never got a reply
20:12:37 <AnMaster> 21.11:01 <AnMaster> !befunge98 aaaa*** . a, @ got a reply
20:12:44 <AnMaster> and so did <AnMaster> !befunge98 aaaa*** . @ later
20:12:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, not even on what slox does
20:13:35 <GregorR> slox keeps a process from using more than a requested percentage of the CPU.
20:13:49 <ehird> GregorR: set up a reverse dns for that codu
20:13:53 <ehird> it comes as codu.xen.prgmr.com
20:14:07 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, I know, I need to. I assume it involves talking to humans though, and that sucks ;)
20:14:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok. How does it do it
20:15:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, um. cfunge has a compile time option to set a 3 second alarm() at startup.
20:15:39 <ais523> is SIGSTOP the right one? I would have assumed SIGKILL would be better
20:15:47 <GregorR> I don't /think/ that that should be affected by SIGSTOP.
20:15:53 <ais523> it's about CPU throttling
20:16:00 <ais523> so you have to be able to start again
20:16:14 <GregorR> It's super-lame CPU throttling ^^
20:16:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, why not use linux built in stuff for it
20:16:37 <Deewiant> You can't have precise control with nice
20:16:45 <ais523> !underload (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^
20:16:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you need that precise control
20:16:56 <Deewiant> If you want to do your own scheduling SIGSTOP is an easy way to get it
20:17:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know if he does, but there are cases in which you do.
20:17:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think SIGSTOP is safe
20:17:34 <AnMaster> what if it happens in the middle of a poll() or such
20:17:35 <GregorR> There are situations where you don't want a program to use much CPU even if the CPU is "free"
20:17:48 <ais523> AnMaster: you are using sigselect(), right?
20:17:55 <ehird> fizzie: does Debian's advanced install let you do kooky lvm stuff?
20:18:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: poll can be interrupted by signals just like any other system call?
20:18:01 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's defined, but plenty of programs don't handle it properly.
20:18:01 <ehird> like, obscure options to lvm
20:18:04 <AnMaster> ais523, um you can't ignore STOP
20:18:14 <AnMaster> and it is pselect not sigselect
20:18:31 <GregorR> (Where by "plenty" I mean "none that I've found", but anyway :P )
20:18:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, I think it depends on very precise timing
20:18:55 <AnMaster> to get it to show said issues.
20:19:33 <GregorR> Suffice it to say that I don't trust Linux's scheduler enough to allow these programs to take 100% CPU *shrugs*
20:20:14 <GregorR> I find that setting the UID of a process rarely changes its scheduling priority :P
20:20:15 <AnMaster> /sys/kernel/uids/<uid>/cpu_share
20:20:45 <GregorR> Doesn't look like I have that.
20:21:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, it can use more, but setting them for different UIDs mean that some UIDs will be guaranteed more under load.
20:21:10 <AnMaster> like per user priority kind of
20:21:33 <fizzie> ehird: I'm don't think it does "kooky" by default, but you can start a shell to mess up with things during the install.
20:21:43 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, 2.6.23 or something like that
20:21:51 <ehird> fizzie: I did that, then it wanted to reformat them :)
20:22:04 <ehird> fizzie: It seems Debian doesn't have new enough kernel for ext4
20:22:06 <AnMaster> GregorR, then I guess it was disabled in kernel config
20:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, 2.6.28, some older ones have ext4dev
20:22:53 <ehird> AnMaster: debian is 2.6.27
20:23:11 <fizzie> ehird: sid has 2.6.29 currently.
20:23:15 <AnMaster> ehird, try another distro, or build a newer one
20:23:25 <ehird> it'll be in testing by the time I get my machine then
20:23:45 <AnMaster> ehird, so you didn't like arch :(
20:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: ECOULDN'TINSTALL.
20:24:06 <ehird> EWASTURNEDOFFBYINSTALLERANYWAY.
20:24:18 <ehird> AnMaster: EPEBVIRTUALMACHINEANDARCH,LOSER.
20:25:05 <AnMaster> ehird, EUSERNOTBOOTABLEINSERTNEWUSERANDPRESSANYKEY
20:25:31 <ehird> So the Arch philosophy is "if you can't install it on a machine, it's your fault, always".
20:25:35 <ehird> Great, I'll stick to Debian.
20:25:56 <AnMaster> ehird, but I still think it was PEBKAC
20:26:04 <AnMaster> I never heard of anyone with similar issues
20:26:05 <ehird> Fuck that, I did exactly what it said.
20:26:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what exact error message did it give
20:26:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't remember, goddamn
20:26:30 <AnMaster> you never mentioned back then either
20:26:33 <ehird> But I can install slackware with my hands tied, I think I could get Arch right
20:26:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:26:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hands tied behind your back or in front of you
20:27:08 <ehird> I need access to a keyboard and a screen.
20:27:09 <AnMaster> and slackware isn't hard to install
20:27:25 <ehird> It's harder than Debian
20:27:57 <ehird> darn. grub can't boot ext4 systems that use extents
20:27:58 <AnMaster> ehird, err, I had more issues installing debian than slackware. Both were about a year and a half a ago
20:28:10 <ehird> AnMaster: PEBKAC PEBKAC PEBKAC
20:28:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:28:31 <AnMaster> ehird, and. Don't use ext4 for your /boot
20:28:37 <ehird> You're an idiot and so's your mother and you should never be allowed to install Linux again if an installer failed for you.
20:28:42 <AnMaster> why are you allergic to separate partitions
20:28:43 <ehird> Also, I need to use ext4 for my /boot.
20:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you need ext4 on it
20:28:56 <AnMaster> I mean you won't access it a lot
20:28:57 <ehird> SSD alignment concerns.
20:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you won't access it a lot still.
20:29:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:29:26 <AnMaster> and you need just 32 MB to have plenty of free space on it
20:29:26 <ehird> I don't feel like fitting it in with other, properly aligned, partitions
20:29:55 <Deewiant> ehird: Do you need extents for it to be aligned properly?
20:30:09 <AnMaster> my boot on gentoo is 9.9 MB, on my arch 20 MB
20:30:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Probably not, but I cba to turn them off. :)
20:30:19 <AnMaster> but I have a distro generic fallback kernel on arch
20:31:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Is that used space or the whole partition size
20:32:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, whole space is 32 MB on gentoo and 64 MB on Arch. Which is funny since the gentoo one is 64-bit and the arch one 32-bit
20:32:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have multiple kernels
20:32:41 <AnMaster> not just the arch generic ones. But also my own ones
20:33:09 <AnMaster> gentoo one only have two custom ones
20:33:18 <AnMaster> current version, and new version to boot to next
20:33:24 <AnMaster> sometimes it has three versions
20:33:49 <AnMaster> in a complex system, see logs of channel from 2009 for more info
20:34:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, system.map isn't required, is it?
20:34:14 <Deewiant> Isn't it just for kernel debugging
20:34:17 <ehird> 20:33 AnMaster: in a complex system, see logs of channel from 2009 for more info ← how useless
20:34:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not for booting no. But it is needed to interpret kernel panics iirc
20:34:32 <AnMaster> since they tend to just contain addresses
20:34:44 <Deewiant> Yeah, so if I don't care about interpreting kernel panics I don't need the map
20:35:02 <AnMaster> I keep 2.6.x and 2.6.y always, where x is last one, and y is current.
20:35:05 <Deewiant> Isn't it recreatable by recompiling anyway
20:35:23 <AnMaster> when I change from 2.6.y to 2.6.y.z I don't remove 2.6.x
20:35:31 <AnMaster> I always keep one from that level
20:36:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, moving /boot/old-configs to /root/old-configs reduced it to 8.5 MB
20:36:33 <AnMaster> old-configs contains configs all the way back from 2.6.9
20:36:47 <AnMaster> 2.6M /boot/kernel-2.6.27-gentoo-r8-L1
20:36:47 <AnMaster> 2.7M /boot/kernel-2.6.28-gentoo-r5-L1
20:37:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I used to have it at 2.2 before, but I needed more options later
20:37:48 <AnMaster> like usb audio for connecting usb keyboard. Parts of that I couldn't build as module.
20:38:07 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder where all that space is going given that du reports only 5.6M
20:38:09 <AnMaster> (keyboard meaning electrical piano, not qwerty here)
20:38:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is stuff I only use very seldom
20:38:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Doesn't du report block-sized anyway, except with --apparent-size
20:38:47 <AnMaster> why would I want it compiled in
20:38:52 -!- sebbu3 has joined.
20:38:59 <Deewiant> Why not, the kernel is only 2.4M anyway :-P
20:39:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err yes that is what I said
20:39:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, so why does df report 4M on top of the 5.6M of du
20:39:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 6.6M for /lib/modules/2.6.28-gentoo-r5-1
20:39:37 <AnMaster> a lot more for /lib/modules/2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1, since it contains the nvidia module too
20:39:47 <AnMaster> which I haven't built for new kernel yet
20:40:08 <Deewiant> Which is something that couldn't be disabled
20:40:18 <Deewiant> So I do have 2.8K's worth of modules ;-)
20:40:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err scsi_wait_scan.ko can be disabled
20:40:40 <Deewiant> Comes with the whole SATA system IME.
20:40:43 <AnMaster> 4M + 394K, you are a bit closer
20:40:47 <AnMaster> maybe there is some other file there too
20:40:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, the 5.6M included every single file+directory.
20:41:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did the 4.4 + 394K then
20:41:30 <AnMaster> and 4.4 + 394K == kernel + grub
20:41:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have SATA system. I don't have scsi_wait_scan.ko
20:42:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Total for multiple files.
20:42:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some distros install them
20:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to make you able to write /boot/foo in grub config instead of /foo
20:43:15 <AnMaster> thus less bug reports from users
20:44:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:44:26 <Deewiant> menuconfig says SCSI_WAIT_SCAN = m
20:44:27 <AnMaster> you don't have that one I guess
20:44:36 <Deewiant> No, I have my own backup which is also 2.4M.
20:44:55 <AnMaster> so you don't have arch fallback ones installed then
20:45:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, disable CONFIG_SCSI_SCAN_ASYNC
20:45:53 <Deewiant> Although I think I'll enable it, that sounds good. :-P
20:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't even have the option for SCSI_WAIT_SCAN there...
20:46:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, CONFIG_SCSI_SCAN_ASYNC is why you need SCSI_WAIT_SCAN
20:46:41 <AnMaster> │ Symbol: SCSI_WAIT_SCAN [=n] │
20:46:52 <GregorR> !cxx cout << "Hello, world!" << endl
20:47:04 <ehird> GregorR: using that Georgi thing?
20:47:17 <GregorR> ehird: No, just g++ wrapped in the same gunk as usual.
20:47:25 <ehird> !cxx cout << [](){"A PACKAGE FOR YOU!"}
20:47:27 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.17577.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)':
20:47:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Disabled everything under SCSI device support and it's still =m. Couldn't disable CONFIG_SCSI, though.
20:48:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, why did you include the namespace std:: by default
20:48:04 <ehird> GregorR: Well, it will.
20:48:08 <ehird> AnMaster: IRC line shorter.
20:48:18 <ehird> your definition of funny sucks :P
20:48:27 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.17622.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)':
20:48:36 <ehird> 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:123: note: candidates are: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& (*)(std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>] <near match>
20:48:41 <ehird> 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:127: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_ios<_CharT, _Traits>& (*)(std::basic_ios<_CharT, _Traits>&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>] <near match>
20:48:50 <ehird> 20:48 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:134: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::ios_base& (*)(std::ios_base&)) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>] <near match>
20:48:51 <AnMaster> more harmonic. More like the error messages
20:49:05 <ehird> 20:49 EgoBot: /usr/include/c++/4.3/istream:242: note: std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>& std::basic_istream<_CharT, _Traits>::operator>>(std::basic_streambuf<_CharT, _Traits>*) [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>] <near match>
20:49:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what are the deps of the symbol
20:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xconfig allows you to see it easily
20:49:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: SCSI_WAIT_SCAN? How would I know?
20:49:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Show debug info in make xconfig
20:49:36 <GregorR> !cxx cout << [](){"A PACKAGE FOR YOU!"}
20:49:37 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.17673.cc: In function 'int main(int, char**)':
20:49:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think menuconfig supports that
20:49:45 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
20:49:49 <GregorR> Hrm, I added -std=gnu++0x ...
20:49:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've only ever used menuconfig and oldconfig, didn't even know about this :-P
20:49:56 <ehird> GregorR: does gcc do it?
20:50:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it has "show all options" which let you see all greyed out options too
20:50:12 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno exactly what g++ does and doesn't support, but it certainly supports /something/
20:50:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those things are in the option menu iirc
20:50:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ctrl+f doesn't find scsi_wait_scan...
20:50:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe case sensitive
20:50:53 <ehird> GregorR: add machine code!
20:51:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, show all options first
20:51:04 <Deewiant> Or maybe it is but it didn't find it
20:51:06 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:51:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I did, and debug info
20:51:27 <Deewiant> Enabled everything under option
20:51:43 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
20:52:05 * ehird puts http://mastodon.biz/ in a vm
20:52:08 <Deewiant> Finds plenty for SCSI but nothing for WAIT
20:52:39 <Deewiant> I set it to =n in the .config but it got overridden
20:52:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, disable the modules option
20:52:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since you didn't use modules anyway
20:53:05 <GregorR> ehird: Give me a header for a .asm file :P
20:53:24 <Deewiant> I wonder if it can be built as =y though, for the async
20:53:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you don't have modules you don't need it
20:53:47 <AnMaster> and it is a user visible option in older kernels
20:53:53 <Deewiant> │ scsi_wait_scan module to ensure that all scans have completed."
20:54:09 <Deewiant> Oh, maybe I should read the whole paragraph
20:54:29 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
20:54:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I don't know if it has any effect on sata
20:54:53 <ehird> Ancient Linux GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:55:05 <ais523> !underload (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
20:55:06 <EgoBot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
20:55:07 <ehird> http://mastodon.biz/
20:55:12 <ehird> an old distro w/ bsd userland
20:55:18 <ehird> gcc 2, linux 2.0.x
20:55:25 <ehird> 7 years old at the time of that writing
20:55:28 <ehird> which I imagine was a few years ago
20:55:40 <ehird> it mentions ISDN lines in the download page
20:55:40 <AnMaster> "The most recent version is INST0066, which is no longer all that recent (~7 years old), but I'm trying to decide whether to roll to one of the super-bloated newer Linux kernels or write my own USB stack plus SATA and UDMA drivers for 2.0.28."
20:55:58 <ehird> he's not insane, he just likes minimal sw
20:56:03 <ehird> ion author is a raving lunatic
20:56:40 <ehird> AnMaster: it even has a netinst!
20:56:41 <AnMaster> gcc no longer supports it nowdays. Since 4.4 it is obsolete
20:56:47 <ehird> also, I don't think he cares
20:57:00 <ehird> nothing depends on gcc 4 afaik
20:57:10 <ehird> he probably wouldn't use any gpl software.
20:57:17 <ehird> 1MB netinst .img boot GO!
20:57:32 <ehird> aww, no bootable medium found
20:57:35 <ehird> guess .img isn't .iso
20:58:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can't use it on your new computer
20:58:01 <ehird> damn that brings some memories
20:58:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll probably still a floppy on there
20:58:23 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what it is
20:58:28 <ehird> a floppy "livecd" that netinstalls
20:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you said it brings memories
20:58:34 <ehird> pretty modern for 7+n years ago
20:58:45 <ehird> never, just floppy linux
20:59:15 <ehird> I attempted to run every linux distro I could find in like 2004-2005
20:59:19 <ehird> Mostly shitty floppy ones
20:59:24 <AnMaster> nowdays even the bz2 image of the kernel wouldn't fit on a floppy
20:59:33 <AnMaster> but I guess if you disabled some stuff
20:59:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Super-bloated, like he said
20:59:40 <ehird> The first OS I tried when I got my AWESOME NEW ETHERNET ROUTER no more winmodem I can use other OSes yay!! was QNX
21:00:09 <AnMaster> so what did you think about it
21:00:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it did not live up to my high expectations, I thought it was a desktop OS.
21:00:54 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it does have a desktop
21:00:55 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, it did look pretty
21:01:05 <ehird> the gui wasn't unmodern, it just had no apps
21:01:18 <ais523> ehird: could you recompile apps for QNX, I wonder/
21:01:24 <ehird> ais523: it's posix
21:01:40 <ehird> AnMaster: it's just too retro for virtualbox!
21:01:50 <ehird> here's the wonderful splash screen I got:
21:02:03 <ehird> (WARNING: YOUR EYES WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU)
21:02:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, worked under qemu yes., Decided not to try under vmware
21:02:29 <ehird> even imgur can't take it
21:02:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't put files in shock-site hosters
21:02:49 <AnMaster> ehird, but you said it was a shock pic
21:02:57 <AnMaster> and not shock site hoster, just shock pic
21:02:58 <ehird> it's awful but not shocking :P
21:03:26 <GregorR> !asm movl $72, %edi; call putchar; movl $105, %edi; call putchar; movl $10, %edi; call putchar
21:03:36 <ehird> AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00OQ
21:03:54 <ehird> it faded that in before booting the kernel
21:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, aiie emebdded color profile
21:04:06 <ehird> AnMaster: os x does that :)
21:04:22 <ehird> and thus it died again; let's try... um ...
21:04:45 <Deewiant> !asm .intel_syntax; mov edi, 72; call putchar; mov edi, 10; call putchar
21:04:45 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.17919.s: Assembler messages:
21:05:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, so you prefer AT&T syntax too then
21:05:28 <GregorR> Deewiant: I can fix that. What's the directive to switch back to AT&T syntax?
21:05:45 <Deewiant> !asm .intel_syntax; mov edi, byte 72; call putchar; mov edi, byte 10; call putchar; .att_syntax
21:05:46 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.17963.s: Assembler messages:
21:06:08 <ehird> LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOO
21:06:10 <AnMaster> ehird, bochs got an awesome debugger though.
21:06:13 <ehird> -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
21:06:16 <ehird> -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
21:06:17 <Deewiant> !asm .intel_syntax; movzx edi, 72; call putchar; movzx edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax
21:06:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.18042.s: Assembler messages:
21:06:19 <ehird> -LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGOOOOO-
21:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and wasn't bochs originally IOCCC entry
21:06:37 <GregorR> Apparently Deewiant can't even remember Intel syntax :P
21:06:54 <Deewiant> GregorR: I don't move constants into registers too often :-P
21:07:16 <Deewiant> !asm .intel_syntax; mov byte edi, 72; call putchar; mov byte edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax
21:07:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.18084.s: Assembler messages:
21:07:18 <ehird> How much disk do you think mastodon needs?
21:07:38 <Deewiant> GregorR: And FWIW "mov edi, 72" would work in FASM
21:07:50 <ais523> !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:08:01 <Deewiant> But it complains about ambiguous operand size
21:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, qemu was related. Just not directly
21:08:24 <ehird> 21:07 ehird: How much disk do you think mastodon needs?
21:08:33 <Deewiant> !asm .intel_syntax; mov byte ptr edi, 72; call putchar; mov byte ptr edi, 10; call putchar; .att_syntax
21:08:34 <AnMaster> Binary file 2004/fs.tar matches
21:08:34 <AnMaster> 2004/gavin.hint: see http://bellard.org/ for QEMU (Fabrice Bellard is an IOCCC 2001 winner),
21:08:34 <EgoBot> /tmp/ccclhLmE.o: In function `main':
21:08:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Nope, undefined reference to edi
21:08:51 <ais523> !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:08:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, att syntax is a lot faster to get it right in
21:09:00 <Deewiant> GregorR: And the directive was .att_syntax, incase you didn't notice :-P
21:09:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "mov edi, 72" should work.
21:09:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, you mean mov $72, %edi surely?
21:09:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, I mean intel syntax. I don't speak $%!@#%!@#%!
21:09:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't speak intel syntax
21:09:56 <ais523> hmm... obviously it isn't capturing stderr
21:09:57 <AnMaster> ais523, do you prefer Intel or AT&T syntax
21:10:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Like AT&T, but remove the ^$#!%!@ and flip operands.
21:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I grew up on Intel, but I haven't used asm recently enough to express a preference
21:10:14 <Deewiant> And lose the suffixes on instructions.
21:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Holy shit, mastodon has an ncurses installer!
21:10:18 <ais523> although gcc-bf is AT&T syntax
21:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no you add ^$#!%!@ and flip operands to get Intel
21:10:31 <ehird> err... intel has no such (#*$%*(@#
21:10:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, there's no ^$#@!!@#$
21:11:32 <Deewiant> Why can't that crap understand 'mov edi, 72'.
21:11:52 <ehird> Choose the web/ftp site to install Mastodon 0066 from
21:11:56 <ehird> Pell (Oregon, USA)
21:12:19 <ehird> Admittedly, it freezes then
21:13:44 <ehird> Better download the real OS beta
21:13:47 <ehird> Not the netinstall
21:14:21 <ehird> ha, it comes with adobe acrobat
21:14:48 <ais523> sudo acrobat # watch as my system gets infected
21:15:09 <ais523> there's a cross-platform zero-day bug in latest Acrobat
21:15:18 <ais523> that lets PDF Javascript take over the system
21:15:30 <ais523> obviously the payload's different on different OSes, but the bug's the same one
21:15:34 <ais523> Deewiant: well, that's the obvious solution, yes
21:15:46 <ehird> ais523: it's adobe 4
21:15:54 <ehird> and it's not acrobat any more
21:16:04 <ais523> oh, not "acrobat reader"
21:18:02 <GregorR> !c printf("Hello, world!\n");
21:18:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you use Intel or AT&T first
21:18:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I meant. Which one did you learn first.
21:18:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is the issue then
21:18:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is force of habit.
21:18:54 <Deewiant> I have absolutely no intention of learning it.
21:18:55 <ehird> AnMaster: you're a troll.
21:19:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There's no habit involved. I've coded exactly one thing in asm and did it in Intel because I evaluated both and found the other crap.
21:19:26 <AnMaster> ehird, oh. So all those persons saying Haskell is horrible, because they don't understand it, aren't trolls then
21:19:45 <Deewiant> I didn't say it's because I don't understand it, I said it's crap. :-P
21:19:45 <ehird> you're seriously being a retard, it's embarrasing
21:20:00 <Sgeo> http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225919&title=snoutbreak-09-what-to-call
21:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I met plenty of programmers who thought functional programming was stupid, because it can't do while loops and similar
21:20:22 <Deewiant> What does this have to do with anything?
21:20:23 <ehird> once again you prove yourself to be the one person who can say things completely irrelevant and act as if they're profound
21:20:29 <AnMaster> I'm saying this is the same thing. You don't understand AT&T syntax.
21:20:47 <ehird> i know it, i've used it, i hate it BECAUSE IT IS SHIT.
21:20:52 <AnMaster> You hate what you aren't used to it.
21:20:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Gentoo is awful. You don't understand Debian.
21:21:07 <ehird> You hate what you aren't used to it.
21:21:19 <AnMaster> then I would have no words left for Red Hat and *shudder* CentOS
21:21:21 <ehird> AnMaster: C is awful. You don't understand Pascal.
21:21:27 <ehird> You hate what you aren't used to it.
21:21:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No you don't.
21:21:38 <ehird> Evidence: You don't understand it.
21:21:41 <ehird> Because you hate it.
21:21:45 <ehird> You hate what you aren't used to it.
21:21:56 <ehird> You hate what you aren't used to it. →
21:21:59 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant said he didn't understand AT&T
21:22:27 <AnMaster> ehird, and you said I hate perl only because I don't understand it and such before
21:22:33 <AnMaster> which is exactly the same thing
21:22:43 <Deewiant> When did I say I don't understand it?
21:24:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have coded a lot in both intel and AT&T syntax. I strongly prefer AT&T one. But I wouldn't actually call the intel one horrible most of the time.
21:24:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you think the AT&T one is so bad.
21:24:30 <Deewiant> &^!@#$!@#$! and the operand suffixes
21:24:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is this "&^!@#$!@#$!" exactly
21:24:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: For instance, $ in front of numbers
21:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, AT&T is what most other platforms than x86 use.
21:25:18 <AnMaster> so while instruction set differ
21:25:23 <AnMaster> you don't have to learn a new syntax
21:25:30 <AnMaster> and I coded for many platforms
21:25:36 <Deewiant> You have to learn the instruction set anyway
21:25:38 <AnMaster> not having to learn another syntax
21:25:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Understand, then reply.
21:25:54 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> so while instruction set differ
21:25:55 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> you don't have to learn a new syntax
21:26:12 <Deewiant> My point was that learning the syntax along with the instruction set is not a noteworthy additional burden.
21:26:29 <Deewiant> The problem is learning the instruction set, not the syntax.
21:27:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a difference between "hm... so how did you write a mov to a register in this one..." and "hm... so what was the move instruction and the register name in this one..."
21:27:25 <AnMaster> when you coded for enough platforms not having to remember such details help
21:27:33 <Deewiant> Yes, and it is a small difference.
21:27:38 <AnMaster> especially if you haven't coded in it for some time
21:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you dislike those prefixes ok
21:28:18 <AnMaster> so that is all the "&^!@#$!@#$!"
21:28:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot of noise for a small issue IMO
21:28:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why should I have to remember to write -> in C. AAARGH
21:29:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was being sarcastic
21:29:21 <Deewiant> It /is/ a pointless distinction.
21:29:26 <AnMaster> AARGH WHY SHOULD I NEED TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN /**/ AND /++/
21:29:54 -!- calamous has joined.
21:30:10 <Deewiant> True, that is a pointless distinction as well.
21:30:29 <Deewiant> I don't like D's approach of going for C compatibility.
21:30:43 <Deewiant> I understand why it does and it's probably a good idea but I don't like it.
21:31:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you want a perfect language with no odd bits go use R5RS or someting
21:31:23 <Deewiant> That's not what this is about.
21:31:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, it is still force of habit.
21:32:05 <AnMaster> because sure you looked at GAS
21:32:22 <Deewiant> I could barely deal with either.
21:32:37 <Deewiant> I don't remember, that's probably over 10 years ago.
21:33:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh also, you shouldn't need to write 0x
21:33:22 <Deewiant> You don't, you can write h instead. :-P
21:33:46 <Deewiant> You need some way to distinguish between different number bases.
21:33:49 <AnMaster> so if it saw any letters in the range a-f
21:34:01 <Deewiant> f00 can be both an identifier and a number.
21:34:10 <AnMaster> or possibly always use minimal possible base
21:34:32 <Deewiant> That's a good idea for an esolang
21:34:53 <oerjan> ^ul (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:34:53 <fungot> -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...too much output!
21:35:18 <thutubot> -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ...too much output!
21:35:24 <AnMaster> !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, why is EgoBot so slow there
21:35:38 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
21:35:49 <ais523> AnMaster: my guess is that it's because it doesn't have a cutoff for too much output
21:35:54 <oerjan> !underload (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:36:07 <Deewiant> It just cuts off /after/ it's run the whole thing or timed out.
21:36:16 <Deewiant> Well, I guess that's what you meant anyway.
21:36:28 <AnMaster> since it spammed with me the whole mycology as you remember
21:36:33 <ais523> (-)S(O)(~:S:*(- -)S~:^):^
21:36:35 <ais523> -O- -OO- -OOOO- -OOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO- -O
21:36:37 <ais523> that's cut off by hand
21:37:01 <AnMaster> from yesterday or whenever it was
21:37:03 <Deewiant> How did you manage to run Mycology over IRC? O_o
21:39:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
21:40:14 <AnMaster> last I checked it excess flooded off every few minutes
21:40:35 <ais523> AnMaster: do you have sanity.b98 up?
21:40:38 <ais523> that would be a lot saner...
21:41:04 <Deewiant> It's fully Befunge-93 compliant!
21:46:19 <AnMaster> ais523, pull from my ick branch.
21:46:32 <AnMaster> ais523, and I see no changes to pull from you
21:46:52 <ais523> AnMaster: final exams for me atm
21:46:56 <ais523> so I have to be careful about what I do with my time
21:47:05 <AnMaster> ais523, like spending hours on irc
21:47:05 <Deewiant> Me too, but that hardly matters ;-)
21:47:15 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, IRC is one of my favourite uses of spare time
21:47:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:47:55 * oerjan _assumes_ that wasn't sarcastic, but you never know...
21:49:13 <GregorR> !sh echo Gregor shouldn\'t trust plash this much :P
21:49:13 <EgoBot> Gregor shouldn't trust plash this much :P
21:50:25 <GregorR> Deewiant: It puts it in a file, that's just an invalid script :P
21:50:49 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
21:52:22 <Deewiant> !sh rm Makefile && ls Makefile
21:52:39 <GregorR> Deewiant: It's the '&&' that failed there.
21:53:34 <EgoBot> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
21:53:50 <GregorR> Very little of the filesystem is exposed.
21:54:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://google.com/search?q=plash
21:54:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, it seems fairly broken
21:54:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: Broken in what way? It seems to work great to me.
21:54:39 <AnMaster> I would have expected to see /bin and such
21:54:53 <EgoBot> bash busybox cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more mount mountpoint mt mt-gnu mv nano nc nc.traditional netcat netstat open openvt pidof ping ping6 ps pwd rbash readlink rm rmdir rnano run-parts sed setfont sh sleep stty su sync tai
21:55:16 <GregorR> AnMaster: Because rm failed
21:56:03 <AnMaster> !sh /usr/bin/file /bin/busybox
21:56:03 <GregorR> AnMaster: The spamming is not going to be useful for >5 messages
21:56:04 <EgoBot> /bin/busybox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
21:56:24 <EgoBot> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
21:56:42 <GregorR> !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; echo hi
21:56:49 <EgoBot> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/plash/lib
21:56:51 <GregorR> !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; cat Makefile
21:57:10 <GregorR> The tricky thing about plash is that the LD_LIBRARY that's loaded in /allows/ it to see anything.
21:57:13 <AnMaster> !sh unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; env | grep ld
21:57:14 <EgoBot> I_ARG=unset LD_LIBRARY_PATH; env | grep ld
21:57:16 <GregorR> By default it /can't/ see anything.
21:57:35 <GregorR> AnMaster: It has a special libc
21:57:46 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes right. But what prevents me from using another one
21:57:56 <AnMaster> I mean a statically linked binary or such
21:57:59 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's in a chroot jail with nothing in it, running as a fake user.
21:58:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, a different chroot than the egobot one?
21:58:31 <GregorR> (plash dynamically makes chroot jails)
21:58:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, so egobot runs as root
21:58:54 <GregorR> AnMaster: plash is setuid root to make chroots
21:59:09 <EgoBot> accessdb activateCmosToken add-shell addgroup adduser arp arpd ascii2enUS_scancode aspell-autobuildhash assetTag avahi-daemon biosdecode chgpasswd chpasswd chroot ck-log-system-restart ck-log-system-start ck-log-system-stop cleanup-info console-kit-daemon cpgr cppw createUnitTestFiles cron cytune defoma-reconfigure delgroup dellBiosUpdate dellLEDCtl dellLcdBrightness dellMediaDirectCtl dellWirelessCtl deluser disable_console_redir dmidecode dpkg-diver
21:59:18 <GregorR> ... activateCmosToken? >_O
21:59:33 <AnMaster> !sh /usr/sbin/activateCmosToken --help
21:59:36 <GregorR> !sh dpkg-query -l | xargs echo
22:00:14 <GregorR> BTW, the ultimate purpose of all this silliness is that I'm making daemons work again, and I'd like it to be possible to write daemons in non-esolangs.
22:00:16 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> SSH_CLIENT=65.183.185.209 36199 22
22:00:28 <GregorR> AnMaster: Its messages have exponential backoff.
22:00:28 <AnMaster> I thought we weren't doing env any more
22:00:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: So that was from a much earlier env.
22:00:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, how long will it spam me
22:01:16 <EgoBot> X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar as aspell aspell-import awk base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftruncate bsd-write c++ c++filt c2ph c89 c89-gcc c99 c99-gcc c_rehash cal calendar captoinfo catchsegv catman cc chacl chage chattr chcon chfn chkdupexe chrt chsh ck-h
22:01:18 <GregorR> AnMaster: By my calculations, 15 minutes, then once more 15 minutes after that :P
22:01:36 <GregorR> Deewiant: Old EgoBot let users run programs in esoteric languages that would get their own !commands.
22:01:43 <GregorR> Deewiant: I want to get that working again, and nearly have.
22:02:06 <Deewiant> GregorR: So you could add them dynamically over IRC, or what?
22:02:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, just simulate the freenode model
22:02:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, simulate the freenode rate limiting
22:02:47 <GregorR> I don't know how FreeNode does rate limiting.
22:03:02 <Deewiant> 2-second sleep between messages is enough.
22:03:11 <AnMaster> each time a line is sent, substract one
22:03:23 <AnMaster> anyway I don't remember the exact valyes
22:03:30 <AnMaster> but the algorithm was like that
22:04:28 <GregorR> I think I'll just use exponential backoff but cut it off earlier *shrugs*
22:05:33 <GregorR> Eh, I'll poke around at that later.
22:05:40 <AnMaster> and cut it off after 5 or 10 lines
22:05:48 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have no prioritization between processes.
22:05:53 <AnMaster> that is of course 2 second delay globally
22:06:06 <AnMaster> GregorR, so do it in the seralizer process
22:06:22 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, but you could end up blocked by somebody else's process, which is irritating :)
22:06:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, otherwise you could still spam it off.
22:06:51 <GregorR> I'm not trying to make it impossible, just that you have to be actively malicious rather than just make a mistake.
22:07:07 <AnMaster> "<GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, but you could end up blocked by somebody else's process, which is irritating :)"
22:07:32 <GregorR> You seem to think that multibot is far more complicated than it is :P
22:07:45 <GregorR> I have a bin that all the messages go in to. And that's it. That's the whole setup.
22:07:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, no. I think it *should* be
22:08:14 <GregorR> Not worth the PITA right now *shrugs*
22:08:16 <AnMaster> "Plash modifies library calls by providing a modified version of glibc, PlashGlibc. Most executables are dynamically linked to glibc, so they do not need to be recompiled in order to run under Plash."
22:08:23 <AnMaster> what if I got a static executable in there
22:08:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, do you use plash for the !asm and !c ones
22:08:44 <GregorR> <GregorR> The tricky thing about plash is that the LD_LIBRARY that's loaded in /allows/ it to see anything. <GregorR> By default it /can't/ see anything.
22:08:54 <GregorR> AnMaster: plash is used for /everything/
22:09:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, even for cfunge there
22:09:11 -!- Slereah has joined.
22:09:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, does it still work correctly
22:09:30 <AnMaster> have you checked with mycology
22:09:40 <GregorR> I decided I wanted to worry a little bit less about bug checking the interps :P
22:09:50 <GregorR> Mycology is 12 trillion lines of output, right?
22:10:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, there may be certain features only that doesn't work
22:10:23 <GregorR> Bleh, URL for mycology X_X
22:10:28 <AnMaster> mycology would check that throughtly
22:10:35 <GregorR> !befunge98 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667
22:10:43 <GregorR> !befunge http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667
22:10:50 <GregorR> (Of course, I don't even know if that's valid befunge98 >_> )
22:11:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
22:11:30 <GregorR> Have I mentioned that you're annoying? :P
22:11:30 <Deewiant> GregorR: That looks like it should work.
22:12:47 * oerjan gives GregorR his "AnMaster is annoying" badge
22:12:52 <GregorR> BAD: 32x doesn't set delta to (3, 2)
22:13:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, um. That doesn't happen freestanding does it
22:13:12 <Deewiant> That's pretty fail-y for an interpreter right there.
22:13:16 <oerjan> i just distribute the badges
22:13:26 <AnMaster> it doesn't happen when I do it normall
22:13:46 <GregorR> It does appear to happen freestanding.
22:13:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, sure you are using cfunge not the other one then
22:14:17 * oerjan gives AnMaster an "Elephants are pink, tiny with whiskers and can fly" badge
22:14:27 <lifthrasiir> hmm, i wonder what is the most optimizing brainfuck compiler and how does it do.
22:14:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, and it worked yesterday
22:14:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No interpreter on http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/mycology-comparison.html fails at that.
22:14:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor does cfunge here
22:15:16 <AnMaster> $ build/cfunge mycology/mycology.b98 | grep BAD
22:15:16 <AnMaster> If the interpreter loads the fingerprint, subsequent lines will be GOOD or BAD depending on whether the interpreter behaves according to the fingerprint's specification.
22:15:34 <AnMaster> which is not a BAD but just an info line
22:15:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe you managed to mess up download *wgets from that url to check*
22:16:30 <GregorR> What part of "S - T - F - U" don't you understand.
22:16:37 <GregorR> I'm looking in to it, if I have questions I'll ask you.
22:16:43 <GregorR> If not, your spamming me that it should work is not helpful.
22:17:10 <AnMaster> I'm going to bed soon though, early morning tomorrow. But I will be around for maybe half an hour
22:18:32 <lifthrasiir> i have written some brainfuck-to-c compiler just out of curiosity, but i want to see world-class optimization ;)
22:19:11 <lifthrasiir> libbf seems to have some optimization passes but i'm not sure.
22:19:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I wrote one too. It kind of worked not very well
22:19:54 <AnMaster> like it compiled all in a single function
22:20:11 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Connection timed out).
22:20:23 <lifthrasiir> many compilers claiming optimization feature, in reality, only fold <<<<s and >>>>s etc.
22:20:57 <lifthrasiir> some compilers optimize [-], but that's all. i have seen only three or four compilers which optimizes multiplication loop.
22:21:12 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I did more. 1) folded +-<> 2) I made [-] set 0 3) [-]+++ -> set 3 4) I folded some loops into polynoms
22:21:19 <AnMaster> oh I also tried to reorganise code
22:21:19 <GregorR> It actually works fine, something (now fixed) removed the \x00 in the input.
22:21:56 <AnMaster> which was then folded into 2+>-<
22:22:32 <AnMaster> and only adjusted pointer when I entered some unbalanced loop or such
22:22:55 <lifthrasiir> "4) I folded some loops into polynoms" seems interesting. any details?
22:23:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I didn't optimise multiplication loop. I got bored before that.
22:23:08 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it was based on some other compiler
22:23:31 <lifthrasiir> http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py my attempt is here.
22:23:52 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/changes
22:24:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it didn't do it's job very well
22:24:50 <AnMaster> I got bored before that version
22:25:11 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/optimize.c
22:25:25 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/node.h
22:25:26 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/before/trunk/annotate/head:/src/node.c
22:26:39 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, tell me if you want any more info
22:27:53 <lifthrasiir> well, i think my attempt is same as yours;
22:28:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, "bff4" might be worth checking out
22:28:44 <lifthrasiir> it combines every <+>-s into the list and tries to eliminate dead code and propagate.
22:29:26 <lifthrasiir> so tightloop pass unrolls one loop, primarily for multiplications
22:29:54 <GregorR> !befunge98 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410667
22:30:07 <GregorR> My sandbox sandboxed networking away from the wget that downloads the requested file X-P
22:30:20 <lifthrasiir> but since i'm using expression classes for intermediate representation i should write some simplification codes for it
22:30:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, so it broke \0 that way
22:30:44 <GregorR> AnMaster: No, that was unrelated.
22:30:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I think I planned to run mine recursively until optimisation didn't change the code tree
22:30:50 <GregorR> AnMaster: That was just because of how I was testing it.
22:31:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, so mycology works inside the jail then
22:31:22 <lifthrasiir> i got hello world program (as seen in wikipedia pages FYI) optimized to this:
22:31:24 <lifthrasiir> mptr[1] += 9; mptr[0] += (8 * mptr[1]); mptr[1] = 0; putchar(*mptr); mptr[1] += 7; mptr[0] += ((4 * mptr[1]) + 1); mptr[1] = 0; putchar(*mptr); ...
22:32:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, and if so you possibly doesn't need -S from cfunge. It would allow you to do some interesting stuff like file io and socket io
22:32:44 <GregorR> I don't want to give it sockets :P
22:32:57 <GregorR> I'm fine with file I/O at this point if you'd like to make a more precise option.
22:33:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:33:05 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:33:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe I'll put that on TODO
22:33:47 <AnMaster> it isn't something I'll add right now anyway
22:33:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, what prevents the !asm one from making direct syscalls
22:34:42 <GregorR> Those were just a silly experiment (which, btw, is now gone :P )
22:35:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, you removed them after I said syscall didn't you
22:35:24 <GregorR> No, but I was removing them as you said that.
22:35:29 <GregorR> The only syscall I'm afraid of is socket.
22:35:41 <GregorR> All the other stuff is fine because it's running in a chroot jail as a fake user.
22:36:07 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
22:36:09 <GregorR> ... iptables can do that? >_O
22:36:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, iirc there is an owner match yes
22:36:37 <GregorR> If so, I'll set that up and put them back.
22:36:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, not sure if it is part of standard kernel sources or just part of gentoo hardened
22:37:18 <ehird> 22:11 GregorR: Have I mentioned that you're annoying? :P ← You don't say.
22:37:19 <ehird> 22:34 GregorR: Those were just a silly experiment (which, btw, is now gone :P )
22:37:26 <ehird> !c printf("NOOO!!\n")
22:37:34 <ehird> RIP EgoBot-being-fun 2009-2009
22:38:06 <AnMaster> │ CONFIG_NETFILTER_XT_MATCH_OWNER: │
22:38:14 <AnMaster> │ Socket owner matching allows you to match locally-generated packets │
22:38:14 <AnMaster> │ based on who created the socket: the user or group. It is also │
22:38:14 <AnMaster> │ possible to check whether a socket actually exists. │
22:39:05 <AnMaster> [!] --uid-owner userid[-userid] Match local UID
22:39:05 <AnMaster> [!] --gid-owner groupid[-groupid] Match local GID
22:39:05 <AnMaster> [!] --socket-exists Match if socket exists
22:39:07 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:39:30 <GregorR> I'm trying to see if there's a way to make it range-based though.
22:39:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, you use a standard kernel
22:39:53 <ehird> Bah, I'll have to make my own arbitrary-code-execution bot. WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS.
22:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: PLASH IS FASCIST SYSTEM RESTRICTEr
22:40:32 <AnMaster> ehird, he used that all the time for C
22:40:38 <ehird> EXECUTION LIBÉRATIONE!
22:40:59 <ehird> Yay Mastodon downloaded.
22:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the dirt over the first E in the second word
22:41:42 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:42:03 * lifthrasiir comparing http://pastie.org/466231 (before output) and http://pastie.org/466232 (esotope-bfc output)
22:42:39 <lifthrasiir> of course i didn't write template for expanding memory. :p
22:43:23 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you have it before
22:43:29 <ehird> AnMaster: the netinstall didn't work
22:43:40 <ehird> so I downloaded the beta disk
22:44:00 <ehird> AnMaster: 300-so megabytes @ 50kb/sec.
22:44:16 <ehird> Screenshot of the installer: (it has COLOURS!)
22:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cA
22:44:48 <ehird> And it's not THAT big.,
22:44:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, your optimise better right
22:45:02 <ehird> It contains all the binaries, probably unstripped, with libc 5 and gcc 2
22:45:13 <ehird> No networking at all, and a full system with things like adobe acrobat
22:45:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, as well as produces nicer output
22:45:23 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: not so good yet, but i want to optimize further so there is only putchar('H'); putchar('e'); ... and so on. :)
22:45:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, would only be possible for a special case
22:45:49 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you can optimize any loop with the same amount of <s and >s to a polynomial
22:46:07 <lifthrasiir> ehird: yes. and what i have done is exactly that
22:46:19 <ehird> OK, AnMaster: Mastodon install time.
22:46:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cA <-- simplistic installed
22:46:32 <ehird> wow, it even has a helpfile
22:46:38 <lifthrasiir> though it cannot handle non-constant increments/decrements for now.
22:46:38 <AnMaster> but why so much transparent padding around the window
22:46:38 <ehird> you can press F1 and get info on the current installer screen
22:46:46 <ehird> use a non-black BG
22:47:02 <AnMaster> ehird, err I use the checker pattern
22:47:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:47:13 <AnMaster> and I see it a third of the way
22:47:39 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so is it better than mine or worse
22:48:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Here, have a screenshot of the help: http://omploader.org/vMW00cQ
22:48:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not sure, i'll check for them.
22:48:33 <ehird> It's a pretty sleek installer for a >7 year old project by one guy
22:48:47 <ehird> Automatic installation GOOO!
22:48:50 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I didn't properly do nested loops
22:48:54 <ehird> lawl, it only does the first disk
22:48:56 <ehird> no other option :D
22:49:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and as I said I gave up on it
22:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00cg
22:49:25 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is esotope-bfc written in C or some other language
22:49:25 <lifthrasiir> then yours and mine is perhaps at same level, i also didn't optimize nested loops
22:50:13 <AnMaster> it had to work on old computers
22:50:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I dunno, so far this is the easiest, quickest Linux distro install I've done :-)
22:50:46 <ehird> Kind of disillusioning. Yay, it's installing kernel version 2.0.28 :-P
22:50:56 <ehird> And Perl 5.6! And Tcl/tk 8!
22:51:01 <ehird> A veritable smorgasbord of languages.
22:51:07 <ehird> It's bloated, clearly ;-)
22:51:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the last tcl/tk
22:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: it was 8.0.4 this one
22:51:17 <ehird> and I think 8.6.something
22:52:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's installed, now it wants me to set up the identity!
22:52:16 <ehird> Domain name: yeolde
22:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it just puts it in /etc/hosts, I think
22:52:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, so now we get !asm and such back
22:52:59 <ehird> Configure this device by hand OR Use dhcp/bootp for automatic configuration OR Do not configure this device
22:53:07 <ehird> hurr, when's the last time anyone last manually configured a networking device :P
22:53:23 <ehird> GregorR: It wants me to set up "Yellow Pages (NIS) administration"
22:53:29 <ehird> I'll just leave NIS domain blank and NEXT :-P
22:53:36 <ehird> Use ntp to set the time?
22:53:45 <ehird> AnMaster: what's a good utc ntp server
22:54:04 <ehird> what's a good ntp server
22:54:24 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.pool.ntp.org/zone/europe
22:54:48 <ehird> [0123].europe.pool.ntp.org, OK
22:55:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, unless you want to use a UK one or whatever.
22:55:24 <ehird> Deewiant: It's mastodon; I really don't care :-)
22:56:12 <ehird> AnMaster: http://omploader.org/vMW00dg
22:56:14 <ehird> This distro is nice :P
22:56:15 <GregorR> Oh, I've managed to entirely kill it, awesome :P
22:56:32 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:56:35 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:56:38 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
22:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Gooooooooo!
22:56:56 <AnMaster> ehird, shouldn't you be complaining about it not being GUI
22:57:05 <ehird> Well, it's simple enough that I don't care.
22:57:12 <ehird> Please set the root password for this machine!
22:57:27 <ehird> I shall set it to the same as what my user password will be BECAUSE I AM HARDCORE AND YOU ARE A FEEBLE VM
22:57:40 <ehird> Could not open new password file, left unset XD
22:57:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, I assume you have limits
22:57:55 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
22:57:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, it has a dialog-based X configuration system
22:58:02 <ehird> Most distros don't have that :P
22:58:42 <ehird> So does Debian etc but not many ones YOU like ;-)
22:58:53 <ehird> Configure the monitor, and it gives a long list of models.
22:59:14 <ehird> PROBING YOUR VIDEO HARDWARE
22:59:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that sounds interesting
22:59:43 <ehird> YOU MUST INDICATE HOW MUCH VIDEO MEMORY YOU HAVE!
22:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wow. I would have expected CGA
23:00:14 <ehird> Haha it wants to run at 640x480
23:00:28 <ehird> My VM imitates Cirrus Logic GD5446
23:00:30 <ehird> So I'll choose that
23:01:08 <ehird> Test current configuration!
23:01:12 <ehird> This is all on the installer CD still
23:01:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, do you kill all the processes in said config
23:01:26 <ehird> The x server seems to have died ;_;;;
23:01:30 <ehird> No keyboard config XD
23:01:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: I /think/ so X-D
23:01:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, what if I double forked. Would it still be killed after 30 seconds
23:02:03 <ehird> It's having keyboard issues
23:02:33 <ehird> Fatal server error:
23:02:37 <ehird> You must specify a keyboard in XF86Config
23:02:42 <GregorR> AnMaster: Your megaforks are all dead.
23:03:11 <ehird> I'll fix it once this is installed
23:03:11 <EgoBot> core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority (-r) 0 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 32 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131072
23:03:17 <AnMaster> !sh ulimit -a | xargs echo '| '
23:03:19 <EgoBot> | core file size (blocks, -c) 0 data seg size (kbytes, -d) unlimited scheduling priority (-e) 0 file size (blocks, -f) 10240 pending signals (-i) 16382 max locked memory (kbytes, -l) 64 max memory size (kbytes, -m) unlimited open files (-n) 1024 pipe size (512 bytes, -p) 8 POSIX message queues (bytes, -q) 819200 real-time priority (-r) 0 stack size (kbytes, -s) 8192 cpu time (seconds, -t) 30 max user processes (-u) 32 virtual memory (kbytes, -v) 131
23:03:26 <AnMaster> !sh ulimit -a | xargs -1 echo '| '
23:03:43 <ehird> Haha, no space left on device
23:04:00 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have no idea why that command didn't work :P
23:04:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 512MB; it seems bloat was everywhere even then
23:04:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> You must specify a keyboard in XF86Config
23:04:18 <GregorR> !sh ulimit -a | xargs -1 echo -n '| '
23:04:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude. Xorg started in 2004.
23:04:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Consider losing that tetex and whatnot.
23:04:50 <ehird> Welp, it's booting
23:05:03 <ehird> WORST CONSOLE FONT EVER
23:05:15 <ehird> http://omploader.org/vMW00eQ
23:05:27 <ehird> It's like COMIC SANS, CONSOLE EDITION
23:05:53 <ehird> yeolde login: root
23:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't it make you add an user
23:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe because it errored out when it ran out of space
23:06:25 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it continued
23:06:29 <ehird> Deewiant: We have root
23:06:34 <ehird> it just forbids logging in to it
23:06:42 <ehird> AnMaster: by skipping that step
23:06:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Keep guessing, i.e. try other users.
23:06:54 <ehird> Deewiant: There are none.
23:06:58 <ehird> AnMaster: The write-x-config step.
23:07:06 <GregorR> !sh wget http://localhost -O - | head -n 1
23:07:10 <AnMaster> ehird, try again with enough disk space
23:07:15 <GregorR> !sh wget http://127.0.0.1 -O - | head -n 1
23:07:16 <EgoBot> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
23:07:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok that is localhost though
23:07:29 <ehird> AnMaster: how much disk do you think I need?
23:07:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: I was just pointing out the small oddity that opening sockets is OK, they just can't be remote :P
23:07:54 <AnMaster> ehird, whare are the specified system reqs?
23:08:06 <AnMaster> ehird, try whatever crysis needs then
23:08:22 <ehird> Lawl, creating a 2gb image freezes Q
23:08:45 <ehird> Qemu gui frontend for mac.
23:09:01 <AnMaster> ehird, try virtualbox or parralells
23:09:04 <ehird> BTW http://www.colorforth.com/GA.htm
23:09:15 <ehird> AnMaster: virtualbox's vm crashes on mastodon, my parallels trial is probably up
23:09:52 <AnMaster> GA32 is a 32-computer chip in an 88-pin package
23:10:39 <ehird> it's chuck moore's new company
23:13:35 <ehird> Heh, it comes with emacs 19
23:15:53 <ehird> awesome, x almost works ;)
23:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: cursor is just a black square
23:16:35 <ehird> hokay, let's try this
23:16:36 <AnMaster> ehird, did it let you set up users
23:17:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Methinks, that I have some work to do regarding X configuration:
23:17:45 <ehird> Eh, it won't upload
23:17:49 <ehird> Basically, the text is mangled.
23:18:18 <ehird> that's because you didn't use Xfree86 in ~2000 in a virtual machine, AnMaster.
23:18:37 <AnMaster> but you said it "didn't upload"
23:18:53 <AnMaster> I never had issues with ompload
23:19:24 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> http://omploader.org/vMW00eQ <-- what is "Recovering jove files"
23:19:35 <ehird> jove is an old editor
23:19:56 <GregorR> !cxx cout << "jove sux" << endl
23:19:56 <ehird> let's try this again
23:20:11 <ehird> apt-cache show jove
23:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not on such a distro
23:20:34 <ehird> you've done the same before
23:20:35 <GregorR> Debianers love to troll apt-* though :(
23:21:12 <ehird> GregorR: it's not our fault we have a comprehensive, stable package base at our fingertips
23:21:27 <AnMaster> Available versions: 4.16.0.70.3.1 {unix98}
23:21:27 <AnMaster> Homepage: ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/cs/ftp/pub/hugh/jove-dev/
23:21:27 <AnMaster> Description: Jonathan's Own Version of Emacs - a light emacs-like editor without LISP bindings
23:21:56 <GregorR> I'm sure it looks more-or-less like emacs.
23:22:22 <GregorR> ............................................ ohhhhhhhhhhhhh kay.
23:22:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, or did I misunderstand you
23:22:45 <AnMaster> maybe you said emacs was great there
23:22:54 <GregorR> Description: ... a light emacs-like editor ...
23:23:00 <GregorR> Therefore I concluded that it looks more-or-less like emacs.
23:23:12 <AnMaster> <GregorR> !cxx cout << "jove sux" << endl
23:23:31 <GregorR> I knew nothing about it, I was just being an ass :P
23:23:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, so which editor do you use
23:24:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, you can't irc in vim as easily. Though there is an extension for it
23:24:23 <GregorR> My text editor is not my operating system.
23:24:27 <GregorR> It is, in fact, my text editor.
23:24:51 <GregorR> emacs would be a perfectly good operating system if it had a better text editor.
23:25:22 <AnMaster> emacs is a lisp system. elisp yes. Which is not as nice as clisp or scheme
23:26:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:31:39 <ehird> AnMaster: you use bochs right
23:31:43 <ehird> what card does its generic vga emulate?
23:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I more often use qemu and vmware-server
23:32:24 <AnMaster> haven't used vmware-server since January
23:32:33 <AnMaster> haven't used qemu for over a year
23:32:53 <GregorR> !forth ." Hello, world!" CR
23:32:54 <AnMaster> in fact I haven't used any kind of virtual stuff since January
23:33:04 <ehird> GregorR: what forth?
23:33:39 <ehird> GregorR: plz to be printing stderr
23:33:40 <GregorR> gforth is case-insensitive.
23:33:43 <ehird> AnMaster: CR isn't idiomatic
23:33:43 <Deewiant> "Most versions of MS-DOS 6.22 do not idle the CPU when they are idle." Damn, I didn't know that
23:34:34 <ehird> GregorR: Can you please make it talk to the channel?
23:34:41 <ehird> I haaaaaaaate having to switch :p
23:34:55 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> in file included from *the terminal*:0
23:34:55 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.19662:1: Invalid memory address
23:34:58 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE: a a @ . cr
23:35:06 <GregorR> ehird: The problem is that stdout and stderr aren't serialized WRT each other.
23:35:11 <GregorR> ehird: So your cr came first.
23:35:13 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE: a a . cr
23:35:31 <GregorR> ehird: The problem is that stdout and stderr aren't serialized WRT each other.
23:35:40 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE a a . cr
23:35:44 <GregorR> stdout and stderr, being the C files.
23:35:48 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE a 2 a ! a . cr
23:35:51 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE a 2 a ! a @ . cr
23:36:07 <ehird> !forth VARIABLE a : get-a a @ ; : set-a a ! ; 2 set-a get-a . cr
23:36:21 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
23:36:21 <AnMaster> (same word in Swedish, easy to mix up
23:36:31 <ehird> I just want egobot to dump shit to the channel
23:36:43 <AnMaster> I prefer first line in channel only
23:36:51 <ehird> that's a rubbish back-off style
23:37:00 <ehird> and i'll paste it in anyway
23:37:01 <AnMaster> just make your irc client put it in your channel window
23:37:05 <ehird> since I do things in here to show people, duh
23:37:27 <ehird> AnMaster: then they should make the request via /msg
23:37:41 <ehird> If not, it should.
23:37:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and I think you are wrong anyway
23:37:59 <ehird> i've given good arguments, you haven't.
23:38:04 <ehird> i presume you'll refuse to give them
23:38:33 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I prefer first line in channel only
23:38:35 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> just make your irc client put it in your channel window
23:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but,
23:38:49 <ehird> the line in channel only, less spammy: If you want it public you'll paste it anyway
23:38:52 <ehird> If you don't use /msg
23:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you could have made your client put it in this channel virtually locally
23:39:07 <ehird> i'd still have to paste it
23:39:10 <AnMaster> in less time than this discussion
23:40:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.19948.c:7:6: warning: unknown escape sequence: '302'
23:40:20 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
23:40:29 <ehird> GregorR: so are you gonna make it print to the channel or not :P
23:40:46 <kerlo> !c puts("one\ntwo");
23:40:49 <ehird> That is not the same thing. Do not speak for GregorR.
23:40:58 <kerlo> !c puts("one\ntwo")
23:41:09 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20145.c: In function 'main':
23:41:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well he did the Right Thing for asm before
23:41:18 <AnMaster> so I trust him to do that now too
23:41:19 <kerlo> What a descriptive error message.
23:41:37 <ehird> Hey, a UI you have to explain to each and every new user because it's so shit.
23:41:40 <ehird> That's so the Right Thing.
23:41:52 <AnMaster> because their clients are shit
23:41:58 <AnMaster> mine show what happened clearly
23:42:07 <ehird> Hear that everyone? If you don't use ERC, your client sucks.
23:42:31 <kerlo> !c puts((int)puts)
23:42:32 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20187.c: In function 'main':
23:42:33 <ehird> Thus we prove that only the two clients that AnMaster likes are acceptable.
23:43:21 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20230.c: In function 'main':
23:43:34 <kerlo> It appears to be a function.
23:43:57 <AnMaster> !c printf("%d\n", (int)fputs);
23:43:58 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20280.c: In function 'main':
23:44:25 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20320.c: In function 'main':
23:44:31 <kerlo> !c printf("%d", (long int) puts)
23:44:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: He did no Right Thing for asm, he just used GAS, probably just because he had it installed already.
23:44:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, he said he liked it
23:44:56 <kerlo> !c printf("%d", (long int) printf)
23:44:59 <kerlo> !c printf("%d", (long int) printf)
23:45:05 <ehird> Deewiant: gawd, just let him exist in his own GregorR-fellating world.
23:45:21 <kerlo> !c 4195272("%d", (long int) printf)
23:45:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20459.c: In function 'main':
23:45:26 <Deewiant> In any case the Right Thing is more about the fact that GAS's support for Intel syntax is obviously crap :-P
23:45:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, remember he coded a lot for MIPS
23:45:49 <AnMaster> which uses AT&T syntax most of the time
23:45:57 <kerlo> !c itfu("%d", (long int) printf)
23:45:58 <EgoBot> /tmp/ccX9BYHg.o: In function `main':
23:46:12 <Deewiant> Point being that if you're going to use GAS you're stuck with AT&T for all practical purposes.
23:46:28 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20540.c: In function 'main':
23:46:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and with nasm you are stuck the other way
23:46:42 <ehird> I like how I can't follow what the fuck you're all doing.
23:46:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:46:56 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20582.c: In function 'main':
23:47:29 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
23:47:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, request for language: shakespear
23:47:58 <ehird> shakespeare is le shit
23:47:58 <AnMaster> http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/report/shakespeare/shakespeare.html
23:48:11 <ehird> it's not actually interesting
23:48:26 <ehird> a lot of rubbish things are
23:48:45 <AnMaster> The Infamous Hello World Program.
23:48:45 <AnMaster> Romeo, a young man with a remarkable patience.
23:48:45 <AnMaster> Juliet, a likewise young woman of remarkable grace.
23:48:45 <AnMaster> Ophelia, a remarkable woman much in dispute with Hamlet.
23:48:45 <AnMaster> Hamlet, the flatterer of Andersen Insulting A/S.
23:50:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Success).
23:50:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:50:39 <kerlo> !c ((int) printf)(itfu)
23:50:40 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20661.c: In function 'main':
23:51:57 <ehird> Anyone know how to find out the RPM of my disk?
23:53:31 <ehird> That's very helpful of you
23:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, answer is I don't know for OS X
23:55:15 <kerlo> !c ((int*) printf)(itfu)
23:55:16 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20712.c: In function 'main':
23:55:37 <kerlo> !c ((int*) printf)("%n", 42)
23:55:38 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20754.c: In function 'main':
23:57:32 <kerlo> !c ((int()) printf)("%n", 42)
23:57:32 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20794.c: In function 'main':
23:57:33 <kerlo> 18:56 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20794.c:7: error: cast specifies function type
23:57:33 <ehird> AnMaster: by the way, the annoying resize thing on OS X has one purpose
23:57:33 <ehird> if you hold down shift to make it minimize slowly, then killall Dock
23:57:33 <ehird> it stays in its half-warped state
23:57:33 <kerlo> !c ((int()*) printf)("%n", 42)
23:57:33 <EgoBot> /tmp/source.20831.c: In function 'main':
23:57:33 <ehird> and yes, you can interact with it
23:58:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:58:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, screenshot of interacting with it I mean
23:59:37 <ehird> http://omploader.org/vMW01NQ
00:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: dock reopens after being killed
00:00:33 <ehird> but the process that was minimizing it stops, which is all you need
00:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, interacting with it must be odd
00:02:14 <kerlo> !c printf("%d", (long int) printf)
00:02:15 <ehird> Yes, it doesn't offset for the warping so it's mostly trial and error via link hover effects, and if focusing something requires going out of the frame, shit sux you can't click it
00:03:22 <fizzie> On the other hand, for a text editor with a cursor with no mouse-related activities it is rather usable.
00:03:35 <ehird> Yyyyyyyyyyyyyes, apart from the whole reading thing.
00:03:43 <ehird> Did you just try? :P
00:04:10 <ehird> OTHER PEOPLE KNOW? :(
00:04:18 <fizzie> Yes, the secret is out!
00:04:33 <fizzie> They should have some sort of generic window-deformation tool, though.
00:04:34 <ehird> Oh, you meant after I said
00:04:47 <ehird> You know those old java applets where you pinch a image around?
00:04:49 <ehird> Do that for windows.
00:04:49 <fizzie> No, I meant "a year ago or so".
00:05:36 <fizzie> Then you wouldn't need an image editing application to make a funny face; just twiddle the browser window.
00:11:34 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you discover it
00:11:48 <ehird> i think i was just messing
00:19:12 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Graphite?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=graphite_lambda_tutorial.pdf
00:21:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, was that sarcastic
00:21:51 <AnMaster> GCC does it on C and FORTRAN code and such
00:21:54 <lifthrasiir> just a thought after seeing AMD logo below.
00:22:17 <lifthrasiir> no, no, i said "great." after that thought
00:22:27 <ehird> Gawd, my system spends an awful lot of time seeking the HD
00:23:58 <lifthrasiir> in meantime i'm generalizing propagation pass to every node in the loop, rather than consecutive memory ops
00:24:31 <ehird> Meh, I gotsa write my own compiler now.
00:25:06 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't polynomialize an IO-using loop can you
00:25:21 <ehird> you can do before-io and after-io and then output poly1;io;poly2
00:25:46 <AnMaster> in fact I polynomalised any blocks iirc
00:25:57 <ehird> they have to have balancedness
00:26:40 <AnMaster> ehird, and for unbalanced I did as much flattening out as possible
00:26:52 <AnMaster> for that , you could move the - to before
00:26:58 <AnMaster> since it doesn't touch same cell
00:27:13 <AnMaster> so store motion pass or something with a fancy word
00:27:17 <ehird> _0+1, _1+2, _2-1, _0+1; _0=inp; _2-1
00:27:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> _0+1, _1+2, _2-2, _0+1; _0=inp;
00:27:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll optimize +/- before ,
00:28:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to track memory cells
00:28:13 <AnMaster> and see which ones are clobbered
00:28:16 <ehird> no, just final destination
00:28:21 <ehird> i see what you mean
00:28:50 <AnMaster> ehird, don't make , act as a full "fence", make it act as a fence on that specific cell.
00:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, you can do this limited even in unbalanced ones. Just not for all, rather per iteration
00:29:36 <ehird> $0+1; $2-1; ($-1)-1; $1=input; ptr=1
00:29:44 <ehird> is the optimal form of [+>+>-<+,<<-]
00:29:57 <AnMaster> this is done before polynomization
00:30:20 <ehird> lifthrasiir: do you optimize stuff into for loops?
00:30:24 <ehird> the current leading compiler does
00:30:49 <ehird> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/bf2c.hs
00:31:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh also you of course try to track known fixed values of cells
00:31:09 <lifthrasiir> hmm not yet. i'm counting loop count for restricted cases yet.
00:31:18 <AnMaster> after [-] you know the cell is 0
00:31:29 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you should check out that compiler, it eliminates "variables" (places on the tape) etc
00:31:31 <AnMaster> so then you can fold +++ into "set 3" instead of "add 3"
00:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, which simplifies a lot later
00:32:04 <AnMaster> if a cell is reset each iteration I mean
00:32:45 <ehird> If you made bf2c.hs do polynomials it'd kick everything else out of the water
00:35:09 <AnMaster> ehird, does that one turn ++>-<++ into ++++>-<
00:35:19 <ehird> AnMaster: it does everything
00:35:26 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00:35:28 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00:35:30 <ehird> -- the idea here is to combine Move-s along the program by pushing
00:35:32 <ehird> -- them to the end, pushing them through other operations by updating
00:35:34 <ehird> -- these operation's offset; the final move offset is then incorporated
00:35:36 <ehird> -- into the surrounding loop, or, in case of the main program, dropped.
00:35:38 <ehird> (apart from polys)
00:37:15 <ehird> AnMaster: it does pretty much all tricks apart from polys
00:37:15 <ehird> see the other functions
00:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure there is other stuff you can do that it doesn't.
00:37:16 <ehird> yes, but not known
00:37:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the actual program ++>-<++ is turned into
00:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, does it strip [-] at start of program
00:37:16 <ehird> it turns it into data[p]=0; which gcc optimizes out.
00:37:18 <ehird> AnMaster: also, [-]+[-]+ becomes
00:37:23 <ehird> well, with a space and a ;
00:37:26 <ehird> cba to copypaste :P
00:37:42 <ehird> AnMaster: oh wait, it does polynomials
00:37:45 <ehird> data Term = Const Int -- Int
00:37:45 <ehird> | Var Int -- data[p+Int]
00:37:46 <ehird> | Sum [Term] -- (Term+Term+...+Term)
00:37:48 <ehird> | Mul [Term] -- (Term*Term*...*Term)
00:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, like me. But does it do nested polynominals
00:38:17 <AnMaster> like [balaced loop [nested balanced loop ]]
00:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: ,[.+>,[>+<-].<,] becomes:
00:38:37 <ehird> data[p] = getchar();
00:38:37 <ehird> for ( ; data[p]; ) {
00:38:38 <ehird> putchar(data[p]); fflush(stdout);
00:38:40 <ehird> data[p+1] = getchar();
00:38:42 <ehird> data[p+2] += data[p+1];
00:38:46 <ehird> putchar(data[p+1]); fflush(stdout);
00:38:48 <ehird> data[p] = getchar();
00:38:52 <ehird> flattens it out into one loop :)
00:39:18 <ehird> eh? there IS input before
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03:12:08 <GregorR> Is there any Glypho example code?
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04:29:47 <EgoBot> Interpreter echo installed.
04:30:47 <GregorR> What esolangs are only implemented in esolangs?
04:31:24 <coppro> your cat is apparently
04:31:58 <GregorR> That's not the world's most exciting esolang :P
04:33:15 <GregorR> !addinterp rebf bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/BFI.BF
04:33:16 <EgoBot> Interpreter rebf installed.
04:33:28 <GregorR> !rebf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-.
04:33:36 <GregorR> Well that doesn't appear to work at all :P
04:34:04 <GregorR> Could it just be that slow?
04:35:05 <GregorR> We'll never know, it just got killed :P
04:35:10 <calamari> GregorR: doesn't it need an ! at the end?
04:35:12 <coppro> on a slightly related note, do you know any good languages for expressing Turing machines?
04:35:26 <GregorR> coppro: I would love to see one.
04:36:05 <calamari> !rebf !+++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-.
04:36:19 <pikhq> And since Egobot can handle C now...
04:36:24 <pikhq> That's one extensible bot.
04:36:28 <GregorR> bfi446 seems to like to output obscene amounts of whitespace at the end ...
04:36:43 <GregorR> pikhq: Unfortunately, it can't support sub-sub-interps, because the program is sent to the user interpreter via stdin.
04:37:11 <GregorR> Not really any other way to do it though :P
04:37:25 <pikhq> Named pipe as the first argument? :p
04:37:45 <GregorR> Most esolangs don't accept arguments.
04:38:17 * coppro goes and writes a simple Turing interpreter
04:38:58 <GregorR> coppro: Sweet, make sure it's open sauce so I can add it to EgoBot :P
04:39:45 <coppro> just don't leave it open too long or it'll get rotten :P
04:40:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter rebf deleted.
04:40:16 <GregorR> !addinterp rebf bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b
04:40:16 <EgoBot> Interpreter rebf installed.
04:40:23 <GregorR> !rebf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-.
04:40:23 <GregorR> <pikhq> And since Egobot can handle C now...
04:40:33 <GregorR> Heh, copied an extra line there :P
04:41:00 <coppro> GregorR: Does egobot have a way to control the stdin of your command?
04:41:53 <GregorR> I haven't thought of how I want to cleanly (re)implement that.
04:42:00 <GregorR> But T.m.s don't have input anyway ;)
04:42:10 <GregorR> (Well, yes they do, the input on the tape)
04:42:26 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen delinterp help info userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rebf rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
04:42:36 <GregorR> Heh, gettin' near the limit there :P
04:43:47 <coppro> I'm envisioning that each tape unit can contain a whitespace-free string, and the input format would just be the number of spaces into the tape it starts at, the default symbol of the tape, and then the tape.
04:43:59 <coppro> all whitespace-separated
04:44:40 <coppro> oh, crap, boost 1.39 is out
04:44:48 <GregorR> Why not a bitwise tape? T.m.s with any alphabet are reducible to 1-bit T.m.s
04:45:29 <GregorR> (And don't give me any of this "because that's obnoxious" baloney :P )
04:49:30 <GregorR> !addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b
04:49:31 <EgoBot> Interpreter bfbignum installed.
04:49:35 <EgoBot> Interpreter rebf deleted.
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04:51:06 <GregorR> (kbfi apparently runs a bignum BF on an 8-bit BF! Whoot :) )
04:51:16 <GregorR> !bfbignum +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-.
04:53:53 <coppro> Proposed definition format: http://pastie.org/466430
04:54:23 <coppro> : ; * < = > are reserved symbols, anything else can be used in a state or tape name
04:54:46 <lifthrasiir> so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe.
04:55:33 <lifthrasiir> (that is my attempt for brainfuck optimizer, written for hours)
04:57:48 <GregorR> coppro: What is the meaning of Q, A, E?
04:57:58 <GregorR> lifthrasiir: Does it ever eff up valid programs?
04:58:04 <coppro> yellow and blue are tape values
04:58:26 <coppro> <= or => is the direction to move
04:59:12 <GregorR> TBH I'm not enamored with it ...
04:59:13 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: at least i managed to reduce gcc's compilation time. though there are more optimizations to do.
05:00:21 <lifthrasiir> i don't know whether gcc treats invidiual memory cell as variable and does optimize accordingly.
05:00:24 <coppro> GregorR: I wrote that in about 10 seconds, feel free to suggest better ideas!
05:02:41 <coppro> syntax will be an easy thing to rewrite anyways... best to have somewhere to start
05:03:51 <GregorR> coppro: (E(yellow) < Q(yellow)) (E(blue) > A(yellow)) (A(blue) accept) (A(yellow) = E(blue)) (Q(yellow) = Q(blue)) (Q(blue) < E(yellow))
05:04:11 <GregorR> Only with newlines instead of paren'd groups.
05:04:29 <GregorR> I was assuming that '*' = halt?
05:04:41 <GregorR> So, is it halt and accept or halt and reject?
05:04:55 <coppro> oh, you're counting accept and reject separately
05:05:17 <GregorR> It's nice for when the T.m. is supposed to accept or reject something and not just convert something :)
05:05:33 <coppro> it could be accomplished with the tape, but I'll put it in anyways
05:05:52 <GregorR> Well, alternately, change 'accept' => 'halt' there *shrugs*
05:06:37 <GregorR> The main thing I didn't like about the original suggestion was that every transition from an input state is together ... I think it's more ... Idonno, "correct" if every transition is independent.
05:33:22 <GregorR> Hrm, pgimeno wrote an ORK interpreter, and now it seems lost :(
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06:19:38 <GregorR> !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print;
06:19:38 <EgoBot> Just another Perl hacker,
06:24:27 <GregorR> (If perl isn't an esolang, I don't know what is ;) )
06:28:34 <coppro> I'm totally with you there
06:32:04 <coppro> I'm about to hit the hay
06:32:25 <coppro> nothing runnable as of yet; I took the liberty of playing with a new parser framework and I'm not exactly doing well
06:34:17 <coppro> currently it works, except it can't parse accept and reject for some reaosn
06:38:07 * coppro tries replacing those with a series of character literals
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07:16:25 <GregorR> !c printf("%c%c%c", 0xBA ^ 0xF2, 0xA0 ^ 0xC9, 0xE9 ^ 0xE3)
07:16:35 <GregorR> (Hey, I did it right 8-D )
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07:28:41 <GregorR> Yeah, that sounds like "fun" X-P
07:32:02 <psygnisfive> neat. so it really is compiling it then running it in a terminal instance
07:32:28 <xor> !c system("rm -rf /");
07:33:02 <psygnisfive> that probably wouldnt work. remove the ;, because i suspect ; is auto-inserted
07:33:14 <xor> empty statements are legal
07:34:30 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Not happening.
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07:34:56 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
07:35:14 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented
07:35:16 <xor> !c unlink("/");
07:35:19 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin/': Function not implemented
07:35:26 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
07:35:49 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.24938: line 1: sudo: command not found
07:36:19 <xor> !c printf("%d\n", getuid());
07:36:40 <xor> !c printf("%d\n", (int)getuid());
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07:37:04 <xor> who has uids that high
07:37:20 <xor> !c printf("%d, %d\n", (int)getuid(), (int)getuid());
07:37:34 <xor> !c printf("%d\n", getpid());
07:37:36 <xor> !c printf("%d\n", getpid());
07:37:42 <GregorR> I loev how much confusion this is causing.
07:37:55 <GregorR> Everybody who was on earlier knows exactly how it works :P
07:38:05 <xor> i walked in in the middle
07:38:10 <xor> what is actually going on?
07:38:38 <GregorR> It's using the plash sandboxing framework.
07:38:45 <GregorR> It puts it in an empty chroot jail, running as a random UID.
07:41:49 <xor> !c DIR*x;struct dirent *y;x=opendir("/");while(y=readdir(x)) printf("%s\n", y->d_name);
07:42:12 <GregorR> I didn't #include <dirent.h>
07:42:23 <xor> is it possible to?
07:42:47 <EgoBot> bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr
07:43:07 <xor> <GregorR> It puts it in an empty chroot jail
07:43:20 <GregorR> My description was a bit incomplete :P
07:43:34 <GregorR> It puts it in an empty chroot jail with a special version of glibc that provides a false filesystem over that.
07:43:52 <GregorR> So things that use syscalls directly won't work at all, but things that use glibc will get only the files they're allowed to see.
07:46:33 <xor> !c struct dirent x[10]; int i; getdents(open("/", O_RDONLY), x, 10);for(i = 0; i < 10; i++) printf("%s\n", x[i].d_name);
07:46:42 <xor> damnit, how do i use the preproccesor?
07:47:11 <GregorR> Well, because everything has to be on its own line, you'd have to paste a complete file at e.g. pastebin.ca, then !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/whatever
07:47:44 <xor> does it need a main?
07:48:33 <GregorR> Yes. That's what I meant by "complete file" :P
07:59:36 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo
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08:03:34 <xor> ok, here we go
08:03:37 <xor> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410988
08:04:27 <GregorR> I don't think stdout will work by the direct syscall interface.
08:04:32 <xor> <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.25334: No such file or directory
08:04:38 <xor> i'm not using stdio
08:05:07 <GregorR> It must have failed to compile and not realized that it failed to compile <_<
08:05:23 <GregorR> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410988
08:05:47 <GregorR> xor: Are you sure that wasn't from earlier, when it failed to compile?
08:06:03 <xor> ermm...it was
08:06:24 <GregorR> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410990
08:06:33 <GregorR> It just didn't do anything interesting.
08:07:37 <GregorR> What's it supposed to do? It's clearly opening / and then, Idonno, reading from it (quay?)
08:07:50 <GregorR> And then doing something arbitrary with it.
08:08:00 <xor> syscall 141 is getdents
08:08:16 <xor> 5 is open, 4 is write
08:08:47 <xor> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410991
08:08:52 <EgoBot> got -1 bytes of dirents
08:08:52 <GregorR> So ... you're writing to stdin?
08:10:59 <xor> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410994
08:11:37 <xor> !c http://pastebin.ca/raw/1410995
08:13:57 <GregorR> !addinterp hello c char buf[1024]; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf);
08:13:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter hello installed.
08:14:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter hello deleted.
08:15:17 <GregorR> !addinterp hello c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf);
08:15:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter hello installed.
08:15:25 <EgoBot> Unknown command (d) encountered
08:15:43 <xor> 1 line c is hard to read
08:15:54 <GregorR> It's not easy to write, either :P
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08:20:18 <xor> !addinterp foobar c char buf[1024]; int n; while((n=read(0, buf, 1024)) > 0)write(1, buf, n);
08:20:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter foobar installed.
08:20:24 <xor> !foobar baz bomb
08:20:44 <GregorR> Yes, cat is an extraordinarily useful interpreter :P
08:21:54 <xor> !addinterp better_hello c char c;read(0,&c,1);if(c=='h')printf("Hello, world\n");
08:21:55 <EgoBot> Interpreter better_hello installed.
08:22:00 <xor> !better_hello h
08:22:03 <xor> !better_hello d
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08:22:21 <xor> mines shorter
08:22:41 <GregorR> But it doesn't follow the spec of the language.
08:22:49 <GregorR> Which must complain if (e.g.) hhh is entered.
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08:23:40 <GregorR> I'm referring to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello , by the way :P
08:24:12 <xor> i think syntax errors can be considered undefined behaviour
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08:25:43 <GregorR> I just added support for daemons (potentially-long-running programs that can accept input), but I have no real use for them :P
08:26:13 <xor> are you trying to make anything more specific that just an irc bot?
08:27:09 <GregorR> Well ... it's an IRC bot that interprets programs in esoteric languages.
08:27:13 <GregorR> All the other stuff is just for giggles.
08:27:41 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>++++>+<<<<-]>++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>>-.
08:27:54 <xor> ...you already have one
08:28:56 <GregorR> OH, heh, daemons in EgoBot aren't daemons in that sense :P
08:29:35 <xor> is this a complete rewrite of EgoBot ?
08:29:44 <xor> or if not, why the sudden interest?
08:30:36 <GregorR> The old version of EgoBot was so ill-organized I couldn't even get it to run (well, at least not without more work than I wanted to put in to it)
08:30:50 <GregorR> So I made a new one. It's a bit more modular, although also weirder in some ways >: )
08:31:01 <xor> hopefully you didn't use c++ again
08:31:13 <GregorR> My choice won't make you any happier >: )
08:32:21 <GregorR> I wrote a simple scriptable bot in C that just hooks up to IRC and then runs scripts based on input from IRC. The scripts themselves are mostly ~10-line shell scripts.
08:33:00 <xor> C is far better than C++
08:33:07 <GregorR> (Is xor an alias for somebody I should remember, btw? :P )
08:33:34 <xor> you mean you don't recognize me? :(
08:34:19 <GregorR> Although looking through my logs, it looks like you come here often, but never when I'm here :P
08:35:04 <xor> you ought to recognize my demeanor
08:35:21 <GregorR> I don't maintain a demeanor->identity association.
08:36:51 <xor> you can construct one from your identity->demeanor association in O(n) time
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08:37:11 <GregorR> I don't maintain an identity->demeanor association either :P
08:38:15 <xor> you do, perhaps it is subconscious
08:38:21 <xor> there you go
08:38:33 <GregorR> Although I don't maintain an identity->demeanor association, luckily I do maintain a nick->hostmask association :P
08:39:00 <GregorR> http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ if you're interested in the new version.
08:45:24 <xor> you know, spawning all those new proccesses get's expensive
08:45:30 <xor> i think you need a mod_brainfuck
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08:58:23 <psygnisfive> would anyone be willing to review a draft of a paper for me?
08:58:51 <xor> only if it's interesting
08:59:21 <psygnisfive> dunno if you'll find it interesting. i certainly do! :p
09:02:52 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/draft.pdf
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11:55:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: OMG what has DMM done to Steve!
11:55:56 <oerjan> this is _evil_ i tell ya
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11:57:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, agreed. Didn't notice you join.
11:57:53 <AnMaster> (who I hope remembered to pull yesterday or today)
11:58:15 <ais523> AnMaster: why is it important that my repo's completely up to date, while I'm not working on it?
11:58:22 <ais523> especially during exam time?
11:58:48 <ais523> my situation's rather amusing; actually
11:59:01 <ais523> because it's exam time, nearly all the computer labs are completely full
11:59:10 <ais523> but this one's only half-full, because it runs Vista
12:00:07 <ais523> there are a couple of tiny Linux labs in the department, and all the computers there can X-forward from UNIX
12:00:21 <ais523> but I can't get into the department atm, both doors failed
12:00:24 <ais523> and so they had to be locked by hand
12:00:37 <psygnisfive> would one of you mind reviewing a draft of a paper im writing?
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12:01:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> but I can't get into the department atm, both doors failed <-- ouch
12:01:58 <ais523> as you said several months ago, how hard can a door be?
12:02:20 <AnMaster> the Door controller virus is spreading!
12:02:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, you think it isn't infected
12:03:51 <oerjan> fortunately it has not yet learned to transmit to humans
12:04:19 <oerjan> but beware if you sense the Smell of Bacon, that means it's almost there
12:05:01 <oerjan> this is likely to happen when it mixes with the swine flu in a few weeks
12:06:23 <oerjan> you will then have to hermetically seal the department, including its internet connections.
12:06:52 <AnMaster> ais523, does x86 support signaling NaN
12:07:04 <oerjan> you will then be lulled into a false sense of security, until one day, before christmas 2012...
12:07:42 <oerjan> when it shall escape through a combination of the sewers and a cable network.
12:07:57 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
12:08:05 <oerjan> the world's first Cyborg Virus
12:08:06 <ais523> hardware signals are a mess on x86 anyway
12:08:28 <ais523> there weren't really any in real mode, I think they were added in a hurry in protected mode
12:08:38 <ais523> but I'm not used to protected-mode x86 programming
12:08:57 <oerjan> Hollywood: Please contact me for the movie rights.
12:12:39 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... Was just wondering what would happen if some funge programmer crafted a signaling NaN and used it in FPSP and/or FPDP
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12:13:43 <ais523> you could just set up an ignore handler for it, it would hardly waste any time at startup and it wouldn't invoke a time cost on the rest of execution
12:14:40 <Deewiant> Unless the programmer /wanted/ a signal
12:14:50 <Deewiant> Which is probably likely, given that he made a signaling NaN.
12:14:59 <ais523> you'd need a signal-handling fingerprint, then
12:15:11 <Deewiant> I think Mike might even have made one.
12:15:18 <ais523> you could do it via IFFI, I suppose
12:15:29 <Deewiant> But no, you don't need one, you can just crash, which is probably what the programmer expected if he did that.
12:16:01 <ais523> I thought cfunge was never meant to crash no matter what the input
12:16:26 <Deewiant> Inducing a hardware crash like that is fine IMO
12:16:40 <Deewiant> It's somewhat arbitrary whether the program or the interpreter is the one crashing
12:16:45 <ais523> it could be a security bug, thuogh
12:17:17 <ais523> if the user of the large commercial Funge application goes and sneaks a signalling NaN in somewhere
12:17:20 <ais523> and everything crashes
12:17:29 <Deewiant> If you're transmitting floating-point data in binary, yes
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12:48:51 <fizzie> I think you can get x86 (or SSE at least) to throw signals when it sees signaling NaNs, but you need to twiddle some bits for it, it won't happen automatically. There's a gcc flag "-fsignaling-nans" which can be turned on to tell GCC that signaling nans might happen, and exceptions might be thrown, but it is "experimental and does not currently guarantee to disable all GCC optimizations that affect signaling NaN behavior."
12:50:36 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, "PSPF"4( 22:*:*:*:*2:*:*2**aaa**ab++* 1F A Pa,@ should use a signaling nan in a calculation (given IEEE-754 single-precision floats and x86-style signaling/quiet NaNs, where the first bit of the fraction part determines it), but around here it just prints out "nan".
12:51:29 <fizzie> I also saw some references about x87 automatically (when loading the fpu registers) setting that bit in NaNs, making it tricky to return a signaling nan from a function.
12:51:42 <fizzie> It's a bit platform-dependant, of course.
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13:21:29 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "PSPF"4( 22:*:*:*:*2:*:*2**aaa**ab++* 1F A Pa,@
13:21:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, that doesn't seem to signal badly
13:32:56 <fizzie> Yes. I'm not quite sure how to make it barf, but it does not seem to be very popular decision to barf on signaling nans by default.
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14:16:53 <EgoBot> testAttempt to execute unknown command 10
14:17:31 <ais523_> GregorR: you should stop EgoBot feeding newlines automatically to the Underload interp, whitespace is a syntax error in Underload unless commented out
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15:11:40 * ais523 yells mentally at some brilliant Perl6 design decisions, that have now been reversed
15:12:16 <ais523> they originally planned "$obj.method + 1" to mean "$obj.method() + 1" and "$obj.method +1" to mean "$obj.method(+1)"
15:12:29 <ais523> but unfortunately decided whitespace-sensitive DWIM wasn't a good idea, pity
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16:17:47 <AnMaster> scroll wheel kind of not working, and cleaning it didn't help.
16:18:32 <AnMaster> it get gets stuck in some places so hard that to get enough traction to scroll it past you end up clicking the scroll wheel
16:24:36 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:32:41 <ais523> heh, Perl6 has a "but" operator
16:33:57 <ais523> it's rather different from INTERCAL's, though
16:44:56 <pikhq> Hmm. I get the feeling that Perl soon is going to be a superset of INTERCAL.
16:45:19 <ais523> there's a patch for Perl (an older version than 6, though) lying around somewhere that adds all the INTERCAL operators to it
16:45:29 <ais523> I haven't noticed any sort of comefrom yet, though
16:48:31 <ais523> Perl6 has moved to non-ASCII operators, though, it seems
16:52:39 <EgoBot> Error: Expected ) at end of input
16:54:26 <fizzie> At some point they said ¥ will be infix form of the zip operator, but it seems to have changed to be just infix "Z". ≥ will still be a valid spelling of >=, I think.
16:56:58 <pikhq> I can type those, but not in a terminal.
16:57:02 <GregorR> Perl6 should aim to be a language that nobody can actually type.
16:57:07 <pikhq> (urxvt hates the compose key)
16:57:17 <GregorR> Which is to say, even worse than Perl 5.
16:57:18 <ais523> does Perl5 have a $^H, I wonder?
16:57:39 <ais523> because if it does, then it would support $ followed by a literal backspace as a pseudonym
16:57:46 <ais523> and everyone knows langs need more literal backspaces in
16:58:15 <GregorR> perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print;
16:58:21 <GregorR> !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print;
16:58:21 <EgoBot> Just another Perl hacker,
16:58:45 <ais523> wow, EgoBot has a !perl?
16:58:59 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo foobar forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
16:59:01 <GregorR> ais523: Perl is an esolang :P
16:59:14 <Deewiant> Discrimination against the other generic scripting languages
16:59:38 <GregorR> !c printf("And to be fair, C isn't an esolang, but it's in there :P")
16:59:39 <EgoBot> And to be fair, C isn't an esolang, but it's in there :P
17:00:10 <ais523> [16:59] <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: /tmp/compiled.28812: No such file or directory
17:00:16 <Deewiant> !c #include <stdlib.h> assert(0);
17:00:17 <ais523> a slightly weird error for me to be getting...
17:00:25 <Deewiant> It's the error it always gives when it fails, I think
17:00:44 <Deewiant> Something didn't compile so it tells you that it couldn't find the compiled file :-P
17:00:56 <Deewiant> GregorR: It is the kind of thing that shouldn't go to IRC, though...
17:00:59 <GregorR> Yeah, I should probably make it exit after it fails to compile:P
17:01:10 <GregorR> Oooooh, the name of a temporary file, I'm afeared.
17:01:14 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION__)
17:01:28 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION)
17:01:44 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)STDC)
17:01:56 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)4)
17:02:30 <ais523> it is __STDC_VERSION__, it seems
17:03:06 <GregorR> !c printf("%d.%d.%d", __GNUC__, __GNUC_MINOR__, __GNUC_REVISION__)
17:03:17 <GregorR> Apparently none of us remember this stuff ;)
17:03:22 <GregorR> !c printf("%d.%d.%d", __GNUC__, __GNUC_MINOR__, __GNUC_PATCHLEVEL__)
17:03:31 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)__LINE__)
17:03:41 <ais523> !c printf("%ld",(long)__STDC_VERSION__)
17:03:49 <ais523> ugh, i just looked it up as well
17:03:50 <pikhq> !c while(1)fork();
17:04:06 <ais523> that's got to be sandboxed, surely?
17:04:09 <GregorR> I don't recall __STDC_VERSION__ existing.
17:04:13 <GregorR> ais523: Yeah, that does nothing.
17:04:24 <pikhq> He's got a heavy process limit in place.
17:04:29 <pikhq> It does *something*, but not much.
17:04:35 <GregorR> !c system("echo I can\\'t even system :(")
17:05:00 <GregorR> pikhq: Well, it fails to fork repeatedly for 30 seconds :P
17:05:12 <pikhq> GregorR: See? That's something.
17:05:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?).
17:05:48 <pikhq> !sh echo foo >bar;cat bar;rm bar
17:06:06 <ais523> !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo test");
17:06:08 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29351 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
17:06:13 <GregorR> pikhq: Sorry, I removed sh :P
17:06:20 <ais523> wow, I didn't expect that...
17:06:26 <GregorR> ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P
17:06:31 <ais523> !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo test",0);
17:06:33 <EgoBot> /bin/sh: echo test: No such file or directory
17:06:37 <GregorR> ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P
17:06:39 <ais523> !c execl("/bin/sh","-c","echo","test",0);
17:06:40 <EgoBot> /bin/echo: /bin/echo: cannot execute binary file
17:06:44 <GregorR> ais523: Learn to use execl, luser :P
17:06:45 <ais523> GregorR: no, learn to use test
17:06:57 <GregorR> No, in fact, learn to use execl.
17:07:16 <Deewiant> !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test\0");
17:07:17 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29455 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
17:07:19 <ais523> !c execl("/bin", "sh","-c","echo test",0);
17:07:36 <Deewiant> !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test",0);
17:07:42 <Deewiant> !c execlp("sh","sh","-c","echo test\0");
17:07:43 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 55: 29555 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
17:07:51 <ais523> GregorR: I misread the manpage twice...
17:08:00 <pikhq> Deewiant: Null terminating a null-terminated string won't help. ;)
17:08:15 <GregorR> pikhq: It will use one delicious extra byte though.
17:08:19 <Deewiant> pikhq: I was wondering how it's different from passing a null argument.
17:08:20 <ais523> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","echo test",0);
17:08:34 <GregorR> Deewiant: By being not the same in any way, shape or form.
17:08:39 <ais523> Deewiant: execl is varargs, it uses a null argument to terminate the arglist
17:08:57 <GregorR> Anyway, long story short, you can exec, you j ust can't fork.
17:09:00 <pikhq> Deewiant: Sticking a NULL as the last argument pushes 0 on the stack.
17:09:06 <ais523> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","echo *",0);
17:09:07 <EgoBot> Makefile PRIVMSG daemon.sh daemons daemons.tmp fifowrap fix hcmds interps lib scmds slox subinterp.sh subinterps
17:09:08 <Deewiant> Hmm, right, it turns into an array of pointers.
17:09:19 <ais523> that was interesting...
17:09:24 <ais523> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd /bin; echo *",0);
17:09:25 <EgoBot> bash busybox cat chgrp chmod chown chvt cp cpio date dd df dir dmesg dnsdomainname dumpkeys echo ed egrep false fgconsole fgrep fuser grep gunzip gzexe gzip hostname ip kbd_mode kill less lessecho lessfile lesskey lesspipe ln loadkeys login ls lsmod mkdir mknod mktemp more mount mountpoint mt mt-gnu mv nano nc nc.traditional netcat netstat open openvt pidof ping ping6 ps pwd rbash readlink rm rmdir rnano run-parts sed setfont sh sleep stty su sync tai
17:09:25 <pikhq> Sticking a NULL on the end of the string does nothing more than add an extra byte to the string.
17:09:31 <Deewiant> I've just been coding too much Funge :-P
17:09:50 <GregorR> !c execl("/bin/sh", "/bin/sh", "-c", "rm -rf /*", NULL)
17:09:51 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented
17:09:52 <Deewiant> There there's no difference between a double-null-terminated string and a null-terminated string followed by an empty null-terminated string
17:10:03 <pikhq> Well, not necessarily an array of pointers, but yeah.
17:10:06 <pikhq> Just too much funge for you.
17:10:17 <GregorR> "Function not implemented" is a weird error for the sandbox to give :P
17:10:37 <ais523> well, ENOTIMPLEMENTED to block unlink() is certainly a sane way to say you can't do it
17:10:42 <ais523> although maybe EACCESS would be better
17:10:45 <GregorR> Deewiant: Conceptually this is an array of pointers to strings, not just a bunch of concatenated string arrays ...
17:10:55 <GregorR> ais523: Yeah, EACCESS is what I expected.
17:11:16 <ais523> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd /home; echo *",0);
17:11:16 <Deewiant> For some reason I was thinking that it'd be concatenated in memory.
17:11:30 <ais523> aww, egobot knows its own name
17:11:31 <Deewiant> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","cd $home; echo *",0);
17:11:48 <Deewiant> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","ls -l $home; echo *",0);
17:11:49 <EgoBot> /bin/sh: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
17:11:59 <Deewiant> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","ls -l $home",0);
17:12:00 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: Makefile: Function not implemented
17:12:09 <GregorR> Sorry, ls is a program, so sh will want to fork into it.
17:12:21 <Deewiant> !c execlp("/bin/sh","/bin/sh","-c","exec ls -l $home",0);
17:12:22 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: Makefile: Function not implemented
17:12:28 <ais523> !c execlp("/bin/ls","/bin/ls","-l","/home/egobot",0);
17:12:29 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /home/egobot: Function not implemented
17:12:52 <ais523> [17:12] <EgoBot> drwxrwxrwx 0 0 0 0 Jan 1 1970 egobot.hg
17:13:03 <ais523> it seems it can read the file, but not determine modfile or link count or something
17:13:36 <pikhq> GregorR: Why not a fork limit of, like, 10? *Just* enough for non-abusive purposes?
17:14:01 <ais523> because 10 processes are a lot harder to sandbox than one
17:14:04 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo foobar forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:14:06 <GregorR> !sh echo 'People clearly want to play with sh, so enjoy.'
17:14:07 <EgoBot> People clearly want to play with sh, so enjoy.
17:14:12 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: better_hello bfbignum echo foobar hello
17:14:14 <ais523> GregorR: stick an INTERCAL interp in there/
17:14:18 <EgoBot> Unknown command () encountered
17:14:35 <GregorR> Deewiant: You realize they need input, right? :P
17:14:38 <ais523> GregorR: it's saner than CLC-INTERCAL
17:14:55 <GregorR> ais523: Is that an advertisement for C-INTERCAL, or CLC-INTERCAL?
17:15:05 <ais523> although, CLC-INTERCAL would have a simpler interface
17:15:07 <pikhq> ais523: Not really. plimits work just as well for 1 and 10.
17:15:09 <Deewiant> GregorR: I was hoping one of those would be something that doesn't, so I could discern what it is
17:15:10 <ais523> C-INTERCAL needs to fork gcc to compile
17:15:18 <ais523> whereas with CLC-INTERCAL, you can just use -lRun to run the program
17:15:57 <GregorR> Deewiant: hello and better_hello are C implementations of Hello (the language that only accepts 'h'), echo echos, bfbignum implements bignum BF on top of normal BF, and foobar ... well, I don't remember foobar.
17:16:16 <Deewiant> !foobar 64 and 64 and 64, oh my.
17:16:17 <EgoBot> 64 and 64 and 64, oh my.
17:16:27 <GregorR> It seems that foobar echos too :P
17:16:30 <Deewiant> (Not http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar)
17:16:48 <ais523> foobar and foobaz and barbaz, oh my?
17:17:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter foobar deleted.
17:17:24 <EgoBot> Interpreter bfbignum deleted.
17:17:34 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
17:17:46 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
17:17:48 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
17:17:52 <GregorR> addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b
17:17:54 <GregorR> !addinterp bfbignum bf http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/src/kbfi.b
17:17:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter bfbignum installed.
17:18:23 <EgoBot> Unknown command (g) encountered
17:18:44 <ais523> what forms of giving input to programs does EgoBot support atm?
17:18:59 <GregorR> ais523: With !daemon, stdin.
17:19:10 <GregorR> !daemon anotherecho bf ,[.,]
17:19:10 <EgoBot> Daemon anotherecho running.
17:19:10 <Deewiant> !addinterp slowbf98 befunge98 iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98
17:19:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter slowbf98 installed.
17:19:22 <EgoBot> Daemon anotherecho killed.
17:19:37 <Deewiant> !slowbf98 a"dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@
17:19:55 <ais523> Deewiant: is slowdown foolable, by the way?
17:19:58 <GregorR> Deewiant: It'll get killed after 30 seconds :P
17:20:04 <Deewiant> GregorR: It shouldn't be /that/ slow
17:20:05 <ais523> as in, can a program running inside slowdown tell that it's been slowed?
17:20:17 <Deewiant> Yes, since the storage offset isn't (0,0)
17:20:18 <ais523> yep, cfunge was optimising to try to handle slowdown in reasonable speed
17:20:49 <AnMaster> so did anything important happen
17:20:51 <ais523> AnMaster: we've been playing with EgoBot
17:20:53 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:21:00 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
17:21:05 <GregorR> Everybody wurves EgoBot :P
17:21:24 <GregorR> AnMaster: None of significance, but it has both !addinterp and !daemon now.
17:21:52 <Deewiant> GregorR: How did you build cfunge?
17:22:02 <Deewiant> Or wait, that shouldn't matter for that
17:22:11 <Deewiant> I was wondering whether EXACT_BOUNDS was on or off
17:22:13 <GregorR> (The only difference being that when you use an !addinterp, it runs it once for each line of input, whereas when you use a !daemon, a single instance gets all input)
17:22:18 <Deewiant> But since that doesn't wrap it shouldn't matter
17:22:27 <GregorR> Deewiant: It is still running, it's just not saying anything :P
17:22:31 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:22:42 <GregorR> Deewiant: Nowait, it got killed for taking too long, sowwy :P
17:22:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, exact bounds are on iirc
17:23:04 <Deewiant> Seriously, that should take a couple of seconds at most.
17:23:14 <Deewiant> Even on a not-very-new machine.
17:23:22 <GregorR> !befunge98 a"dlrow ,olleh">:#,_@
17:23:44 <Deewiant> GregorR: It takes 0.02s here, FWIW.
17:24:10 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh slowbf98 test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:24:17 <Deewiant> GregorR: Do you give the program in stdin?
17:24:23 <ais523> really, a null daemon is pretty pointless
17:24:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it runs in sandbox mode
17:25:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter slowbf98 deleted.
17:25:45 <Deewiant> i only works on files so it would've been too much work to deal with stdin :-P
17:26:16 <AnMaster> !befunge98 ;@.1;#; "file.b98"00 #; i 2.@
17:26:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you can't mmap() stdin
17:26:38 <AnMaster> so then you would need to write a patch to how files are loaded
17:26:42 <ais523> err, you use mmap for i, with no fallback to something unmappable?
17:27:50 <AnMaster> ais523, that would need a different parser then. Since if I used fread() or such I would have to deal with \r at end of block might be followed by \n at the start of next
17:28:09 <AnMaster> that complexity was the main reason I used mmap() to begin with :P
17:28:14 <ais523> you could just use fgetc
17:28:27 <AnMaster> ais523, feel free to use FILE :)
17:28:41 <AnMaster> I don't think it is a bug anyway.
17:29:31 <AnMaster> ais523, and i would still be banned in sandbox mode. Since the check is done quite early on
17:29:52 <AnMaster> in -S it acts like i and o are not implemented. And y reports that way.
17:31:07 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
17:31:26 <EgoBot> daemon: !daemon <name> <language> <code>. Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time !<name> <input> is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input.
17:32:00 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:32:04 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for befunge98!
17:32:07 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for foo!
17:32:13 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:32:18 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for a_b!
17:32:24 <GregorR> Only addinterp, daemon and friends are !help'd right now.
17:32:40 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for _______!
17:32:46 <GregorR> And yes, it does sanitize its arguments :P
17:32:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, you could make this tell language name and url for each
17:32:54 <EgoBot> daemon: !daemon <name> <language> <code>. Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time !<name> <input> is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input.
17:33:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: I could. So could you ;)
17:33:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe fetch data from USED_VERSION
17:33:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: If only USED_VERSION was useful >_>
17:33:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, no, I'm preparing a cfunge 0.4.1 atm
17:33:37 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:33:41 <GregorR> ......................... /me fails to see how that's relevant to this.
17:33:48 <AnMaster> "<GregorR> AnMaster: I could. So could you ;)"
17:33:48 * GregorR goes back to adding INTERCAL
17:35:35 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:36:48 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Success).
17:38:05 <GregorR> Bleh, CLC-INTERCAL pretty much can't live without being installed, can it ...
17:38:46 <ais523> no, but you can install it into a hierarchy somewhere else
17:38:53 <ais523> and then use PERL5LIBS or command-line options to tell it where
17:39:04 <ais523> in theory, at least, I've never tried
17:39:23 * GregorR hates makemaker, but tries to remember it to be fair.
17:40:35 -!- nooga has joined.
17:41:40 <nooga> i'd like to have something like botnet, but made to perform distributed computing :d
17:41:59 <nooga> like erm... silent seti@home
17:43:03 <GregorR> How about protein folding.
17:43:12 <GregorR> I WILL FORCE YOU TO CURE CANCER WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT
17:43:43 <nooga> computer slave labour ;F
17:49:52 <fizzie> I hear you can buy botnet access from CRIMINALS; I wonder if any research lab has done "oh, crud, we have to compute this simulation before weekend, but our cluster is too small; let's call the Storm guys".
17:55:08 <GregorR> ais523: CLC-INTERCAL installed
17:55:15 <nooga> maybe i should try this "yellow/red/orange square" trick from 4chan
17:55:32 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
17:55:46 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #4
17:55:51 <EgoBot> *000 Invalid statement
17:56:03 <ais523> it gave the correct answer, but gave the error first
17:56:19 <ais523> I wonder why it errored?
17:56:42 <AnMaster> I'd go for bz2 because it is easier to unpack
17:56:52 <GregorR> So long as it's an obnoxious format that's difficult to unpack.
17:56:53 <nooga> !c printf("eeek");
17:56:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, can't do rar. .Z I could do
17:57:08 <GregorR> You have access to compress? :P Solaris?
17:57:35 <ais523> well, yes if I ever post it on Usenet
17:57:40 <ais523> but things should be used for what they're designed for
17:57:51 <GregorR> ... encode it as Brainfuck? .bf.gz
17:58:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you do that on command line
17:58:24 <AnMaster> <GregorR> You have access to compress? :P Solaris? <-- no. I installed it from portage.
17:58:34 <AnMaster> I don't plan to do recursive .a
17:58:44 <ais523> AnMaster: "zip", with the same syntax as tar except you omit the cvf argument
17:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what would I *gain* from .pax
17:58:49 <GregorR> WTF? Since when is there a version of compress for nonshittyOS?
17:58:54 <ais523> AnMaster: standards-compliance
17:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, so zip cfunge-0.4.1.zip cfunge-0.4.1
17:59:14 <Deewiant> GregorR: Comes with gzip, apparently
17:59:22 <AnMaster> app-arch/ncompress http://ncompress.sourceforge.net/ Description: Another uncompressor for compatibility
17:59:43 <fizzie> Distribute it as a lzma-compressed squashfs image; that has the added-value benefit of not being in the main squashfs tree, requiring separate patching. (Although I guess distributions package that stuff, still.)
18:00:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, would mean I would have to do it too
18:00:12 <Deewiant> And I think cramfs is even less widespread than squashfs
18:00:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, "main squashfs tree" meaning the places where squashfs-utilities come from; but it's also not in the mainline kernel.
18:01:08 <GregorR> Damn, textgen.java can't generate a BF version of a 1.1M block of text :P
18:01:27 <AnMaster> lets see what advzip can do to that
18:01:30 <GregorR> Somebody write me a better BF text generator! :(
18:01:32 <ais523> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
18:01:35 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [859]
18:01:47 <ais523> why did it add that infinite loop at the end?
18:01:50 <GregorR> (And by "better", I only mean "supporting obscenely huge input")
18:02:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: zip -9 should be better.
18:02:20 <ais523> GregorR: "[859]" is an infinite loop, because the current tape element isn't a 0
18:02:39 <GregorR> ais523: That's the number of generations it ran X-P
18:02:50 <fizzie> 7zip can also generate zips; it might even do smaller ones. I don't happen to have cfunge-0.4.1 so I can't really test.
18:03:33 <AnMaster> that is using the best compression possible for each
18:03:55 <ais523> distribute the binary, with a --quine option?
18:04:00 <AnMaster> I'm going for bz2 I think here. The difference to lzma is minimal in this case, and bzip2 is rather common these days.
18:04:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't have it installed
18:04:29 <ais523> actually, why binaries? Why not decimals?
18:04:48 <ais523> someone should write an executable which doesn't have a single a, b, c, d, e, or f when encoded into hex
18:05:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was that to me or ais523
18:05:04 <fizzie> "7z a -tzip -mx=9 blah.zip files" for most-compressed zip 7zip can do, if I read the docs right.
18:05:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: I use -mfb=273 on top of that
18:05:48 <AnMaster> so 1 kb less than after advancecomp
18:05:48 <fizzie> "Sets number of Fast Bytes for Deflate encoder."
18:05:49 <Deewiant> 7za a -r -tzip -mx9 -mfb=258 -mpass=15 $f.zip $f
18:06:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same size as from command fizzie gave
18:07:22 <Deewiant> Alright, guess it does nothing then
18:07:35 <fizzie> -mx=9 implies (without the other flags) -mfb=128 -mpass=10, again if I read this table right.
18:07:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it might, just not in this specific case
18:07:38 <ais523> having more than 256 possible bytes is rather strange anyway
18:09:05 <AnMaster> sourceforge changed my username from AnMaster to anmaster
18:09:57 <Deewiant> I'm not sure where I got 258 and 273
18:11:13 <ais523> wow, Perl6 lets you get the length of a string in pixels
18:11:19 <ais523> I wonder what happens if you try that in a text-mode program?
18:11:47 <ais523> I haven't tried it, I'm just reading the docs
18:11:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> wow, Perl6 lets you get the length of a string in pixels
18:12:05 <AnMaster> isn't that up to the GUI toolkit
18:12:15 <ais523> that's what I'd assume, too
18:12:18 <AnMaster> I mean, getting length in pixels
18:12:20 <ais523> presumably you have to have an active GUI, or something
18:12:24 <ais523> just like you have an active filehandle
18:12:26 <AnMaster> it isn't like it is core feature
18:15:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: You probably got 258 from the fact that it's the maximum for that particular value for zip/deflate.
18:16:25 <Deewiant> Yeah, I figured it'd be something like that, but I don't know where in particular I found that out
18:16:32 <Deewiant> Unless it says so right there in the manual?
18:16:46 <fizzie> Well, in the /usr/share/doc/p7zip-full/DOCS/MANUAL/switches/method.htm manual in my case.
18:16:54 <fizzie> "It can be in the range from 3 to 258."
18:17:34 <ais523> 3 to 258 is a range that fits inside an 8-bit int
18:17:37 <ais523> with appropriate encoding
18:19:13 <ais523> heh, Perl6 added support for all the bracket characters in Unicode, for things like s{}{}
18:19:29 <ais523> that reminds me of C-INTERCAL treating all the currency characters in Unicode as mingle...
18:20:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I was just talking...
18:21:39 <AnMaster> well I'm going to submit that news item thing. And sf.net will add it on slashdot again.
18:21:50 <AnMaster> ais523, http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=4375881
18:22:01 <GregorR> $ du -h cfunge-src.shar.bf
18:22:09 <fizzie> s❮foo❯❮bar❯ for heavy-duty string-replacement.
18:22:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, err.... they dropped / now?
18:22:32 <fizzie> That being "heavy left/right-pointing angle quotation mark ornament".
18:22:34 <GregorR> You mean I just wrote this awesome text->BF translator that supports arbitrarily long input for NOTHING :(
18:22:48 <fizzie> For brackets it's always been in the "s{foo}{bar}" style.
18:22:49 <Deewiant> Exact bounds wasn't in a release yet?
18:22:59 <ais523> GregorR: you're supposed to compress the bf afterwards
18:23:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no. It was added between 0.4.0 and 0.4.1
18:23:03 <fizzie> For non-parenthesis-like characters it's the same character.
18:23:13 <ais523> and I'm interested in it, even if AnMaster isn't
18:23:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, It will be in 4.0 I'm sure.
18:23:22 <GregorR> ais523: But it takes a while to compress 47MB :P
18:23:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why is cfunge less than 1.0 anyway
18:23:36 <ais523> AnMaster: upmodded, but basically no chance it'll make the front page anyway
18:23:40 <GregorR> $ du -h cfunge-src.shar.bf.lzma
18:23:41 <GregorR> 392K cfunge-src.shar.bf.lzma
18:23:49 <GregorR> This is clearly your best format.
18:23:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There's nothing 'missing'
18:23:53 <ais523> that's not all that bad...
18:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird would disagree I think. ;O
18:24:26 <Deewiant> CCBI was at 1.0 when it could run Mycology minus the fingerprints
18:24:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway. There is. I'm not below 0.010 yet
18:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, IMO Linux should be 3.0 by now
18:24:53 <GregorR> ais523: It only takes 2.4s for egobfi8 to extract the .bf
18:24:58 <AnMaster> since so much changed since 2.6.0
18:25:08 <AnMaster> but each version changed very little
18:25:21 <ais523> how efficient is your text-to-BF translator, in terms of output size?
18:25:31 <GregorR> ais523: Really quite awful :P
18:25:45 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
18:25:50 <GregorR> ais523: All it does is factor, multiply up the factors, then add that in. It doesn't even make good use of cells.
18:25:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, did you use bf_txtgen
18:25:59 <GregorR> AnMaster: No, that won't handle 1.1M files :(
18:26:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, don't use shar for the input then
18:26:17 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #4¢#6
18:26:22 <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.>>+. [305]
18:26:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not at all. Firstly, Linux is past 1.0, and secondly, saying that Linux should be at a higher version makes it seem even more that cfunge should be at a higher version too :-P
18:26:36 <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++[>+>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++><<<<-]>>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.<+. [207]
18:26:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: I don't think tar would do better, but I'll give it a shot.
18:26:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the "71" there for
18:26:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, tar produces non-ascii armoured one
18:26:57 <GregorR> AnMaster: Length of the BF program.
18:26:59 <ais523> GregorR: what character set are you giving CLC-INTERCAL its input in? It needs Latin-1, I suspect you're passing it UTF8
18:27:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, then what is the [207] for
18:27:09 <kerlo> Remind me what WRITE IN and READ OUT do.
18:27:15 <GregorR> ais523: I'm passing it raw exactly what comes from IRC.
18:27:16 <ais523> well, or I'm passing it UTF-8
18:27:23 <EgoBot> 76 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+++.+++++++++++++++.-------.-------.--.>. [64]
18:27:30 <ais523> I'm not even sure I could paste raw latin-1 in this client
18:27:33 <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.>>+. [215]
18:27:49 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #4#6
18:27:52 <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [475]
18:27:53 <fizzie> It's funny how it always uses that fixed number of cells, ends up doing that "><" in the loop.
18:27:57 <EgoBot> *000 Invalid statement
18:28:06 <ais523> ah, correct answer this timme
18:28:18 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It's funny how it always uses that fixed number of cells, ends up doing that "><" in the loop.
18:28:26 <GregorR> fizzie: It uses a genetic algorithm and I cut it off before it can really perfect things.
18:28:31 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #4#6 DO GIVE UP
18:28:39 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> 69 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [human]
18:28:52 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #130~#125 DO GIVE UP
18:29:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, you could at least compress the result
18:29:03 <GregorR> $ du -h cfunge-src.tar.bf.lzma
18:29:03 <GregorR> 316K cfunge-src.tar.bf.lzma
18:29:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: I do, but it takes a while to compress 36MB X-P
18:29:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <EgoBot> 69 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [human]
18:29:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: With "-t 2" and letting it run a while gives a 64-character version: +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.
18:29:31 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++++++++++<<-]>.+++.>.-------.<+.--.
18:29:32 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> 71 +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+. [475]
18:29:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: I just give the raw output directly from textgen.java
18:29:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, it wouldn't be much work stripping ><
18:30:03 <GregorR> And yet, I'm soooooooooooooo lazy.
18:30:09 * nooga is browsing milw0rm
18:30:24 <nooga> coud you guys test my worm, later?
18:30:42 <GregorR> nooga: If it's a good worm, you don't need to ask us, nor will we ever realize we tested it.
18:30:59 <ais523> nooga: what OS are you designing it for? Most likely, I wouldn't be able to run it
18:31:20 <nooga> ais523: try running windoze in virtualbox
18:31:29 <ais523> nooga: I don't have a Windows licence
18:31:35 <ais523> nor would I install one to help you test malware
18:31:40 <ais523> GregorR: no, I run Linux
18:31:54 <ais523> I think I've got a spare Windows 98SE license lying around
18:31:57 <ais523> but probably not the install media
18:32:16 <pikhq> ais523: BitTorrent it?
18:32:32 <ais523> pikhq: but that would be illegal, wouldn't it?
18:32:36 <nooga> /b/tards will test the worm
18:32:48 <ais523> you get a license to a particular copy of Windows, not to other people's versions, IIRC
18:32:56 <ais523> and I'm not sure offhand what sort of license it was
18:33:12 <pikhq> I suspect it's merely a tiny bit of a grey area.
18:33:34 <pikhq> You might be able to go to court for it, but you'd be rather likely to win the case; after all, you *do* have a license.
18:34:05 <GregorR> !c printf("lawlehcoptahs")
18:34:11 <ais523> pikhq: but if torrenting, unless I was leeching, I'd be uploading it to other people at the same time
18:34:14 <ais523> and /that/ would be illegal
18:34:55 <ais523> I love perl6's but operator, anyway
18:35:16 <ais523> in perl5, the string "0 but true" was often used to give a value which was numerically 0, but true
18:35:32 <GregorR> http://pastebin.ca/1411339 <-- my lame-o BF textgen.
18:35:40 <ais523> in perl6, you can write 0 but true as an expression, and get a copy of 0 that is true
18:35:54 <pikhq> That's so very... Screwy.
18:35:56 <ais523> probably it's most useful for $var but untainted
18:36:24 <ais523> Deewiant: that would be a copy of true, except for being false
18:36:29 <ais523> which would just be false, as far as I can tell
18:36:38 <ais523> because true and false are the same apart from their truth values
18:36:40 <Deewiant> Yes, as far as I can tell also
18:36:46 <Deewiant> So it's just a cool way of writing false
18:37:04 <ais523> except I'm not sure if true and false are the names of the booleans
18:37:11 <nooga> GregorR: and how is your c2bf?
18:37:16 <ais523> probably they are, though
18:37:19 <GregorR> I've become too lazy to manage my memory even when it's trivially simple :P
18:37:24 <GregorR> nooga: Unmaintained for years.
18:37:47 <ais523> gcc-bf's only unmaintained for months, it must be winning!
18:38:15 <pikhq> nooga: It works, but not well. ;)
18:38:27 <ais523> gcc-bf doesn't work, but well
18:38:36 <ais523> although it's a bit inefficient, or would be if it worked
18:38:41 <pikhq> ais523: Well, if it generates correct code, than it is much better. :p
18:38:42 <ais523> O(n) pointer access, for instance
18:38:53 <ais523> and it generates incorrect code, but that's due to bugs
18:39:01 <ais523> and unimplemented things, like multiplication
18:39:04 <Deewiant> Bugs don't count when it comes to correctness
18:39:11 <ais523> does anyone know a decent way to do 64-bit multiplication in BF?
18:39:14 <GregorR> nooga: http://pastebin.ca/1411342 , there, no gc :P
18:39:20 <Deewiant> As long as it would be correct if it didn't have any bugs, it's correct
18:39:23 <GregorR> ais523: By tearing ones eyes out.
18:39:35 <ais523> GregorR: I'm sure that doesn't comply with the C standard...
18:39:49 <ais523> I'm aiming to be both standards-compliant, and also working on many real-world programs
18:39:58 <pikhq> ais523: There's a multiplication algorithm, and there's a way of making 8-bit Brainfuck act as 64-bit.
18:40:00 <ais523> gcc-bf's meant to act as much like genuine gcc as possible, whilst still giving output in BF
18:40:09 <Deewiant> Assuming you can do n-bit multiplication you can probably do m-bit multiplication for m > n
18:40:25 <ais523> yes, but I want efficient implementations of everything
18:40:33 <ais523> assuming an impl which optimises run-length
18:40:39 <pikhq> But there's not many *good* ways to do 64-bit multiplication.
18:40:42 <nooga> GregorR: where is the src of c2bf? :o
18:40:48 <ais523> in fact, I may make gcc-bf output in run-length encoding by default
18:40:52 <pikhq> Somewhere on codu.org...
18:40:56 <ais523> otherwise my computer starts swapping trying to compile hello world
18:41:43 <ais523> the actual compile's fine, it turns out to be the output routine that can't handle it
18:42:02 <ais523> probably by outputting a bit at a time rather than doing the whole thing in memory, I could get around that problem
18:42:26 <pikhq> Hrm. Something like the output format from my (kinda lazy) bfcompress program, then...
18:42:38 <GregorR> nooga: It's on sourceforge, project c2bf
18:42:57 <GregorR> In SVN, its under the directory c2bf
18:42:58 <ais523> GregorR: are you gregorr on sourceforge yet?
18:43:08 <ais523> AnMaster was complaining about being undesirably lowercased
18:43:11 <GregorR> I don't use sourceforge any more :P
18:43:16 <pikhq> That program that inspired me to write PEBBLE.
18:43:29 <ais523> I wonder how similar PEBBLE is to ABI?
18:44:18 <GregorR> Application Binary Interface, duuuuh
18:44:35 <ais523> well, I chose the acronym due to the clash
18:44:39 <pikhq> GregorR: In this context, that leaves me more confused than before. ;p
18:44:43 <ais523> in this case, it's Assembable Brainfuck Instructions
18:44:53 <pikhq> I'd need to look at it.
18:44:56 <GregorR> Awww, /me liked "Assembable" :(
18:44:57 <ais523> it's an asm-like precursor to BF
18:45:04 <ais523> pikhq: let me find some
18:45:35 <pikhq> Either me or oerjan would be the only people that could judge, I think. (did anyone else do much of anything with PEBBLE?)
18:45:44 <GregorR> At this point, if I really wanted a C->BF, I would use mips-gcc and make a MIPS->BF translator.
18:46:10 <pikhq> A MIPS->BF translator? That sounds like a really painfully cool idea.
18:46:23 <ais523> $ zcat libm.a > /tmp/libm.abi
18:46:25 <pikhq> Less painful than a straight C->BF compiler, I bet.
18:46:27 <ais523> wow, I can't believe I just wrote that
18:47:23 <GregorR> Or maybe a MIPS->{pebble,ABI} translator? :P
18:47:54 <pikhq> MIPS->PEBBLE wouldn't be too much easier than MIPS->Brainfuck...
18:48:12 <pikhq> You'd be able to use some macros instead of implementing arithmetic, I guess.
18:49:23 <pikhq> Maybe create some macros to help with the function stuff.
18:49:24 <nooga> can't google it :C
18:49:50 <pikhq> nooga: I've lost my hosting, sadly.
18:50:35 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1411353
18:50:38 <ais523> that should give a good idea
18:51:24 <ais523> the linker will split that into more fundamental instructions before converting it to bf
18:51:59 <pikhq> Ah. That is higher level than PEBBLE. ;)
18:52:12 <ais523> many of the instructions map pretty closely onto BF, though
18:52:19 <pikhq> PEBBLE gives you macros, variables, and that's about it.
18:52:19 <ais523> what in particular made you think it was higher-level?
18:52:37 <ais523> it has several other things, too
18:52:41 <ais523> like hardware stack and frame
18:52:52 <pikhq> To do that in PEBBLE, you need to set up nested loops.
18:53:01 <ais523> probably the biggest difference is autoseek
18:53:15 <ais523> < and > can't be translated, instead you say where on the tape to operate
18:53:19 <ais523> and it figures out how to get there
18:53:20 <pikhq> (using the if or ift macros instead of while, for readibility's sake)
18:53:31 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:53:43 <ais523> the C -> ABI part of gcc-bf is pretty much finished
18:53:51 <ais523> the ABI -> BF part is running into trouble, though
18:54:05 <ais523> yes, I could implement multiplication using a loop, but that would be massively inefficient
18:54:10 <pikhq> In PEBBLE, you can go use < and > on the tape any time you want.
18:54:24 <ais523> ok, so they aren't really that similar
18:54:25 <pikhq> Accessing variables while you're doing that is undefined behavior. ;)
18:54:35 <Deewiant> ais523: Brainfuck /is/ rather inefficient.
18:54:51 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:54:52 <ais523> but I do things like optimise multibyte addition
18:55:02 <ais523> so that it adds bytewise, not numberwise
18:57:07 <pikhq> Which isn't something PEBBLE does.
18:57:19 <pikhq> (I could add a macro for multibyte addition, though.)
18:57:38 <ais523> I use my new favourite technique for compiling ABI
18:57:46 <ais523> which is to compile a language into itself
18:57:55 <ais523> ABI, therefore, is compiled into lower-level ABI
18:58:02 <ais523> until it's at a low enough level to automatically convert into BF
18:58:05 <nooga> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ans smells like sadol
18:58:19 <ais523> towards the end, it's mostly full of loloop and tadd2 instructions
18:58:33 <ais523> (loloop = [], tadd2 = [>+>+<<-])
18:58:53 <pikhq> ais523: That, amusingly, is how PEBBLE is implemented.
18:59:03 <ais523> it's the main way to implement such langs
18:59:16 <ais523> it's a gcc internal term
18:59:26 <ais523> for a sort of loop that doesn't require the overhead of a full goto
18:59:39 <pikhq> Each pass of the compiler just does a few operations on the code, and sends newly generated code on down.
18:59:43 <ais523> OTOH, gcc wasn't designed for a distance between a loloop and a conditional goto quite as big as gcc-bf has
19:00:14 <GregorR> Did anybody other than me ever write a MISC simulator? (I never released mine, because I'm an idiot)
19:00:52 <pikhq> One pass does macro evaluation, one does optimisation, one handles debugging output (basically just writing out *exactly* what instructions the compiler sees to generate stuff), and one finally does code generation.
19:01:30 <GregorR> nooga: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MISC
19:02:13 <pikhq> (well, code generation *or* just doing some crazy psuedo-Tcl shit to interpret it)
19:02:23 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Awww, /me liked "Assembable" :( <-- huh. What is likable about that typo.
19:02:57 <GregorR> Only baby-talk of something that it's silly to talk to a baby about.
19:03:24 <GregorR> OHHH WIDDLE PIDDLE POO, ITS ASSEMBABLE! WIDDLE ABI IS ASSEMBABLE! A DOOBLEDOOBLEDOOO
19:04:36 <pikhq> That's especially funny if I imagine you actually saying that. ;)
19:05:06 <GregorR> I don't think you've heard enough of my voice to properly imagine that :P
19:05:42 <ais523> GregorR: about !intercal, it might be easier for entry over IRC to include a version that used CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode
19:05:50 <ais523> which you can do by passing --preload=ick as a command-line option
19:06:03 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
19:06:11 <pikhq> That video with you describing how to build Dsss, for example?
19:06:14 <GregorR> pikhq: Hence my use of the term "enough"
19:06:25 <pikhq> Well, I can still imagine it.
19:06:32 <pikhq> Probably not all that well, though.
19:06:35 <GregorR> And don't forget the kill yourself song :P
19:07:06 * GregorR is a bit scared that in his backup discs he has a directory "laptop/brainfuck/linux-2.6.11.8"
19:07:24 <ais523> I don't think gcc-bf can handle the Linux kernel yet, though
19:07:28 <ais523> but wouldn't it be great if it could?
19:07:51 <pikhq> GregorR: That's quite scary.
19:07:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> GregorR: about !intercal, it might be easier for entry over IRC to include a version that used CLC-INTERCAL's C-INTERCAL emulation mode
19:08:09 <AnMaster> shouldn't that be !clc-intercal and !c-intercal
19:08:17 <pikhq> ais523: I doubt Linux would run without some massive work.
19:08:23 <ais523> because it's still CLC-INTERCAL, just with C-INTERCAL emulation
19:08:40 <GregorR> pikhq: There's no I/O, so there's no purpose in running an OS :P
19:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it should use real ick
19:08:44 <pikhq> No MMU, for example.
19:08:44 <ais523> maybe !clc-intercal-atari or something would be closest to what's actually happening
19:08:54 <pikhq> GregorR: There's plenty of I/O.
19:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: that would involve two compile stages
19:09:11 <pikhq> GregorR: Also, it could use PSOX.
19:09:15 <ais523> first from INTERCAL to C, then from C to executable
19:09:19 <ais523> it might be a pain to sandbox
19:09:27 <GregorR> ais523: Nah, that's easy to sandbox.
19:09:35 <ais523> well, feel free to use C-INTERCAL too
19:09:41 <ais523> although it demands files have filenames ending .i
19:09:48 <GregorR> I didn't reaaaaaaally want to have a whole family of intercals :P
19:09:50 <ais523> so you'll have to use a symlink to /dev/stdin, that's what I do
19:09:59 <ais523> GregorR: there are only three
19:11:51 <ais523> GregorR: INTERCAL is rather nonstandard in operation, more or less by definition
19:11:58 <ais523> so it tends to cause a lot of brain explosion
19:12:19 <ais523> removes the random compiler bug
19:12:42 <ais523> but really, a 10% chance of the program erroring out at random really isn't that bad for an IRC bot
19:13:45 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea when in May wolfram alpha will be released?
19:15:09 <AnMaster> ais523, there are 4 aren't there. The original one too
19:15:23 <ais523> there's both Princeton and Atari
19:15:29 <ais523> Atari is probably source-lost
19:15:45 <ais523> it's believed that there are still hardcopies of the Princeton compiler source lying around somewhere, though
19:15:45 * GregorR can't figure out how to make ick do anything X-D
19:15:55 <ais523> GregorR: what are you trying?
19:16:07 <Deewiant> A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE
19:16:13 <ais523> GregorR: I mean, as the command line
19:16:13 <GregorR> DO READ OUT #130~#125 DO GIVE UP
19:16:36 <AnMaster> well you don't need -b of course
19:16:47 <ais523> bear in mind that ick invokes system to run a C compiler
19:16:52 <GregorR> Clearly I need something, as it doesn't read :P
19:16:56 <ais523> so you need to give it a process limit of 2, or do it separately
19:17:10 <GregorR> ICL999I NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! ON THE WAY TO 1 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
19:17:12 <ais523> gcc uses lots of processes
19:17:17 <ais523> GregorR: what version are you using?
19:17:25 <ais523> the no skeleton indicates a bad install
19:17:36 <ais523> but more recent versions make that harder and harder to mess up
19:17:46 <GregorR> That's because I didn't install, I'm running it in place :P
19:17:59 <ais523> oh, more recent versions should run in place, too
19:18:05 <ais523> there's a lot of dwimmery in finding the skeleton
19:18:14 <ais523> it looks everywhere plausible it can think of
19:18:25 <ais523> argv[0]'s path, argv[0]/../lib, etc
19:18:35 <ais523> try dumping pit/lib/syslib.i and src/ick-wrap.c into the current directory
19:18:39 <GregorR> Nope, needed to be installed
19:18:43 <GregorR> ICL000I DO READ OUT #130~#125
19:18:43 <GregorR> CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
19:18:54 <GregorR> Which is probably correct X-P
19:19:01 <ais523> there was a bug in my program
19:19:14 <ais523> try DO .1 <- #130~#125 DO READ OUT .1 PLEASE GIVE UP
19:19:20 <AnMaster> isn't it internal compiler error
19:19:26 <ais523> no, 000 is syntax error
19:19:36 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the funny message
19:19:47 <ais523> the funny message is the line that errored
19:19:52 <ais523> writing amusing syntax errors is encouraged
19:20:29 <ais523> like the famous PLEASE KNOCK BEFORE ENTERING at the start of syslib
19:20:57 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello intercal kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:21:04 <ais523> not there yet, obviously
19:21:07 <AnMaster> btw I will accept patch for TRDS to cfunge. Under three conditions: 1) No slowdown for programs not using it. 2) No increase in memory usage for programs not using it. 3) No mess up in the core code of cfunge.
19:21:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I won't implement it. Simply
19:21:32 <Deewiant> But then you need to open the file again
19:21:50 <ais523> does TRDS work retrospectively, from before you loaded the fingerprint?
19:21:52 <Deewiant> And it might have disappeared in the meantime, so it's not very robust
19:21:52 <GregorR> Which should it run when you type !intercal ?
19:21:53 <GregorR> (Or should that just be invalid)
19:21:59 <AnMaster> or accept a patch for it either. Well I could accept a patch to build both cfunge and cfunge.trds
19:22:04 <Deewiant> ais523: You need to keep a copy of the initial funge-space to be able to roll back time
19:22:12 <Deewiant> ais523: By default, you can just overwrite it as you run.
19:22:14 <ais523> GregorR: may as well make it invalid, C-INTERCAL is more popular but that's just bias
19:22:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no increase in memory usage also includes "not a single byte added to ip struct"
19:22:36 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's a lot faster, so that might help for simple programs; OTOH gcc's rather slow, so it might hinder
19:22:47 <ehird> pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta
19:22:49 <ehird> 20:54:46 <lifthrasiir> so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe.
19:22:53 <ehird> oh my god have my babies :|
19:23:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only the extra memory from the extra code itself is allowed
19:23:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think at least one global array for "TRDS IP data" would be required
19:23:29 <ais523> you could use malloc on first load
19:23:32 <ehird> ais523: err, look at the paste
19:23:34 <Deewiant> Your TRDS impl would be butt-slow under those conditions, though :-P
19:23:44 <ais523> ehird: but how do I know it isn't an ascii art rickroll?
19:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh that wouldn't be allowed either.
19:23:48 <ehird> GregorR: Dicks have stds.
19:23:55 <ehird> ais523: Your loss.
19:23:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so not an option then :)
19:24:05 <ehird> ais523: Here's the juice:
19:24:09 <ais523> also, haha at that program (I did look at it)
19:24:14 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:24:15 <ehird> printf("Hello World!\n");
19:24:17 <ehird> ais523: Compiled from BF
19:24:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> 20:54:46 <lifthrasiir> so far i got hello world program almost optimized: http://pastie.org/private/j5veaiikl1x8vtwm0ov2ta . hehe.
19:24:20 <ehird> ais523: it isn't a special caser
19:24:23 <ehird> ais523: it really optimizes it to that
19:24:30 <ehird> now I have to beat it
19:24:32 <ais523> ehird: yes, presumably it's constant-folding prints?
19:24:38 <ehird> ais523: also polynomials I think
19:24:49 <ehird> I can beat it by recognizing that those cells's values aren't used anywhere else
19:24:53 <ehird> but yeah, I can get
19:24:56 <ehird> printf("Hello World!\n");
19:25:07 <ehird> char mem[30000], *mptr = mem; ← No segfault-handler-to-resize-tape fail :-)
19:25:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> I can beat it by recognizing that those cells's values aren't used anywhere else
19:25:33 <ehird> but will he get bored first?
19:25:37 <GregorR> Not if it's on the stack, you won't have a segfault if you step /barely/ over.
19:25:49 <ehird> GregorR: mprotect, mmap
19:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, once he add that there is nothing more to add. Well he can see "char mem[30000], *mptr = mem;" isn't needed either.
19:26:01 <GregorR> Hence "not _IF IT'S ON THE STACK_"
19:26:05 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing more to add for that program
19:26:08 <ehird> but I can beat it on others
19:26:22 <ais523> !c-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:26:41 <ais523> !clc-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:26:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:26:48 <ehird> ais523: !cintercal, not c-intercal, I'd guess
19:26:51 <ehird> he doesn't have any -s in others
19:26:55 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:26:56 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c c-intercal clc-intercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:27:03 <GregorR> It doesn't support commands with - in them.
19:27:12 <ehird> Well typing - is a pain make it cintercal
19:27:14 <ais523> ehird: GregorR added it with - but - doesn't work
19:27:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well typing - is a pain make it cintercal
19:27:31 <AnMaster> your keyboard layout sucks then
19:27:34 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
19:27:35 <ehird> nope, I'm just lazy
19:27:37 <ehird> !cintercal AN BUTT!
19:27:38 <EgoBot> ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST
19:27:41 <ais523> !clcintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:27:43 <ais523> !cintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:27:45 <EgoBot> ICL000I(1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:27:48 <EgoBot> *997 Illegal operator 1BUT for base 2
19:28:01 <ais523> oh, that program was TriINTERCAL
19:28:04 <AnMaster> yay for not spamming channel more than that
19:28:06 <ais523> no wonder it isn't running correctly
19:28:12 <AnMaster> !clc-intercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:28:18 <AnMaster> !cintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:28:20 <EgoBot> ICL000I(1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:28:23 <AnMaster> !clcintercal (1) DO .1 <- #?6 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING INTERCAL-72 (5) PLEASE COME FROM (1) DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING C-INTERCAL PLEASE COME FROM .1 DOING DETECTION... YOU ARE USING CLC-INTERCAL
19:28:29 <EgoBot> *997 Illegal operator 1BUT for base 2
19:30:25 <GregorR> !sh echo '>+[->++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<+>-]<.>+[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<+>-]<.>+[->+++<]>[<+>-]<[<->-]<.>+[->+++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->+++++++<]>[<+>-]<[->++<]>[<+>-]<[<->-]<.>' | ./interps/egobf/src/egobfi8
19:30:29 <AnMaster> !cintercal PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP
19:30:30 <EgoBot> ICL774IRANDOM COMPILER BUG
19:30:36 <AnMaster> !cintercal PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP
19:30:37 <EgoBot> ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST
19:30:52 <ehird> !sh rm -rf interps
19:30:53 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `interps': Function not implemented
19:31:03 <AnMaster> !cintercal (1) PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP
19:31:04 <EgoBot> ICL129IPROGRAM HAS GOTTEN LOST
19:31:09 <EgoBot> 2009/05/03 18:31:09 socat[4711] E sendto(4, 0x7f8caae11080, 48, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/multibot.EgoBot", 22): No such file or directory
19:31:13 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
19:31:20 <ais523> AnMaster: that error happens when you run off the end of a program
19:31:21 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.4757: line 1: ./PRIVMSG: is a directory
19:31:31 <ehird> !sh daemons/daemon.sh
19:31:32 <EgoBot> 2009/05/03 18:31:31 socat[4816] E sendto(4, 0x7f17c9323080, 48, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/multibot.EgoBot", 22): No such file or directory
19:31:32 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't DON'T GIVE UP for the loop thing
19:31:38 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's a no-op
19:31:40 <ehird> !sh daemons/fifowrap
19:31:41 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.4839: line 1: daemons/fifowrap: No such file or directory
19:31:44 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.4866: line 1: ./fifowrap: is a directory
19:31:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the one to loop forever
19:31:56 <ais523> if you want an infinite loop, try either (1) DO COME FROM (1) or DO TRY AGAIN
19:32:07 <ais523> or (1) DO (1) NEXT if you don't mind running out of stack space
19:32:31 <EgoBot> .: interps lib slox ./interps: 1l 2l Makefile Makefile.orig adjust axo befunge bf_txtgen c-intercal cat cfunge clc-intercal dimensifuck egobch egobf gcccomp gforth_quit glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl ./interps/1l: 1l_a.bin 1l_a.c ./interps/2l: 2lc.c 2li.bin 2li.c Makefile README conv.sh ./interps/adjust: USED_VERSION adjust.bin adjust.c ./interps/axo: axopp
19:32:37 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access daemons/daemon.sh: No such file or directory
19:33:09 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.5015: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:33:32 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the point of writing busyloops? they get throttled, and are killed after 30 seconds
19:33:44 <ais523> !underload (Look, I run despite all this load!)S
19:33:45 <EgoBot> Look, I run despite all this load!
19:33:56 <ehird> i'd like to note that "cd" does not always cd to ~
19:34:02 <AnMaster> ais523, are they limited to a per-process or a per-egobot limit
19:34:19 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
19:34:23 <ehird> "I'll limit you to a per-process or a per-egobot limit, if you see what I mean."
19:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I discovered this locally.
19:34:37 <ais523> !underload ((!underload )SaS(:^)S):^
19:34:37 <ehird> If you're in a directory that doesn't exist, "cd" does nothing
19:34:37 <EgoBot> !underload ((!underload )SaS(:^)S):^
19:34:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> "I'll limit you to a per-process or a per-egobot limit, if you see what I mean."
19:35:02 <AnMaster> will enough limited processes clog things up
19:35:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:35:31 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:35:37 <AnMaster> as in, each one get an equal amount from a max. Or each one has a fixed limit
19:36:23 <GregorR> Again, this is more about preventing mistakes from killing things than stopping malicious users from being asshats.
19:36:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, so if you limit each to 10%, then two running processes will use 20%?
19:37:50 <ais523> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:50 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:50 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:51 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:51 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:51 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:51 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:51 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:52 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:52 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:52 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:52 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:53 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:53 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:53 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:53 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:53 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:54 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:54 <EgoBot> ^ul (+ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S)S
19:37:54 <fungot> +ul (!underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^)S
19:37:54 <thutubot> !underload (a(!underload )~*(:^)*a(+ul )~*(S)*a(^ul )~*(S)*S):^
19:37:55 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
19:38:11 <ais523> sorry, I'm just such a botloop fan...
19:38:20 <GregorR> Plz no iterating quines kthxbai
19:38:26 <ehird> ais523: He did just call doing that a mark of an asshat.
19:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, was that three after each other
19:38:35 <ehird> (Not a gripe, nothing wrong with hats on butts.)
19:38:39 <ais523> well, I ended the loop pretty quickly
19:38:50 <ais523> and I was only running one process at a time on each bot
19:38:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, please ignore thutubot and EgoBot in fungot
19:38:55 <fungot> AnMaster: ' i've sent them all!'
19:39:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
19:39:05 <ais523> AnMaster: that's not the solution
19:39:09 <GregorR> Wait, that was a three-bot loop? lawl X-P
19:39:22 <ais523> because you could still do EgoBot/thutubot
19:39:26 <ais523> and what if a fourth bot turned up?
19:39:33 <ehird> % mkdir ~/Code/debfenestrate
19:39:35 <ais523> the solution's to ignore repeated identical queries
19:39:37 <xor> GregorR: run EgoBot in an EgoBot deamon running EgoBot running EgoBot
19:39:38 <AnMaster> ais523, make thutubot ignore EgoBot
19:39:42 <ehird> hmm that should be reserved for a .deb -fenestrator
19:39:47 <ehird> AnMaster: bots ignoring bots are evil.
19:39:50 <ais523> ehird: oh, what is it?
19:39:58 <ehird> this is a social problem, not a technical one
19:40:00 <ais523> I assumed it was something to do with .debs
19:40:03 <ehird> ais523: de-bf-enestrate
19:40:10 <GregorR> <ehird> this is a social problem, not a technical one // agree
19:40:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, um, that's completely irrelevant.
19:40:37 <ehird> No, no, it really is.
19:40:42 <ais523> xororand with a shorter name?
19:40:42 <AnMaster> anyway some troll could do what ais523 just did
19:40:56 <ehird> AnMaster: trolls don't bother us and when they do we ban them or ignore them.
19:40:59 <ais523> anyway, I like botloops, it's just nice when they come to an end
19:41:03 <ehird> a troll could bring their own two bots in
19:41:07 <ais523> I should write a terminating three-bot iterating loop, involving arithmetic
19:41:17 <AnMaster> ais523, was just about to suggest that
19:41:28 <ehird> 22:19:38 <GregorR> !perl $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print;
19:41:29 <ehird> 22:19:38 <EgoBot> Just another Perl hacker,
19:41:31 <ehird> 22:24:27 <GregorR> (If perl isn't an esolang, I don't know what is ;) )
19:41:33 <ehird> nothing esoteric about that
19:41:33 <GregorR> !c printf("EgoBot is the greatest of the bots. All other bots are subservient.")
19:41:34 <EgoBot> EgoBot is the greatest of the bots. All other bots are subservient.
19:41:52 -!- thutubot has joined.
19:41:54 <ehird> % tr 'a-z' 'oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!'
19:41:54 <ehird> wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgc
19:41:56 <ehird> Just another Perl hacker,
19:42:06 <GregorR> !daemon stupidcat bf ,[.,]
19:42:06 <EgoBot> Daemon stupidcat running.
19:42:19 <EgoBot> Daemon stupidcat killed.
19:42:24 <GregorR> Somebody find a use for daemons :P
19:42:26 <ehird> You killed a kitten.
19:42:29 <AnMaster> ^ul (fungot is greater than EgoBot)S
19:42:29 <fungot> fungot is greater than EgoBot
19:42:35 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(thutubot|EgoBot)
19:42:39 <GregorR> ehird: Every time you kill a kitten, God masturbates.
19:42:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, how long do daemons run
19:42:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, and can they keep state
19:43:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: That's the whole idea.
19:43:07 <ais523> fizzie: pity, I was planning to write a terminating 3-way botloop then
19:43:09 <ehird> !daemon lol bf +[>+]
19:43:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, how do they keep the state.
19:43:26 <GregorR> AnMaster: They're an actual daemon, they just run.
19:43:31 <AnMaster> and how do you write a daemon in another language than bf
19:43:33 <GregorR> ehird: They are still memory limited :P
19:43:43 <EgoBot> daemon: !daemon <name> <language> <code>. Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time !<name> <input> is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input.
19:43:50 <ehird> what the heck do you think
19:43:52 <ehird> do you think bf means
19:45:00 <AnMaster> !daemon AARGH! befunge98 'Aaa*k: aa*k, a, n
19:45:00 <EgoBot> Daemon AARGH_ running.
19:45:17 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:45:21 <GregorR> AnMaster: Names are whitelisted to A-Za-z0-9
19:45:26 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+[[,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[.>]+]
19:45:26 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:45:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, but how comes it doesn't continue to spam in /msg
19:45:46 <EgoBot> PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daemon accumulate killed.
19:45:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:46:06 <ais523> the PRIVMSG showing up like that
19:46:10 <ais523> EgoBot must have written it twice
19:46:31 <GregorR> Oh, actually, I know why it happened.
19:46:45 <GregorR> Because accumulate never created any output, it still had PRIVMSG #esoteric : on the buffer.
19:46:54 <GregorR> So it just appended another one to that :P
19:47:01 <fizzie> Maybe I should just make fungot so that it doesn't accept more than N consecutive queries from any one person; that's the way it currently does stop chatter-loops.
19:47:02 <fungot> fizzie: " taking three as the subject of our proposition is to be fnord from pride, they treat a phantom as something quite beneath contempt just as no turkey ever fnord of noticing a fnord.
19:47:06 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+[[,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.----------->]++++++++++.]
19:47:07 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:47:24 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:47:29 <ais523> still borken, I think...
19:47:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, better make it check for duplicate ones. From same person
19:47:44 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:48:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you could get around it with three bots easily, Less easy with "same message" / per person check
19:48:16 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.----------->]++++++++++.]
19:48:16 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:48:18 <GregorR> AnMaster: Then you just need to make an iterating quine.
19:48:31 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:49:09 <fizzie> It's pretty easy to make it so that a part of the bot-loop-message changes. Well, "easy" depending on the language, anyway. Something with numbers and arithmetic can easily have a incrementing counter there; duplicate-checking won't help much.
19:49:13 <AnMaster> should be optimised into strchr()
19:49:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, command to show program command for daemon please
19:49:42 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:49:42 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:49:56 <GregorR> AnMaster: Your wish is my command.
19:49:59 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:50:01 <AnMaster> ais523, test it locally first?
19:50:06 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:50:07 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:50:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh! Then change it to "give me all your money" ;P
19:50:24 <GregorR> AnMaster: Oh wait, actually, that'd be a PITA, as I didn't keep it around X-P
19:50:29 <EgoBot> test1 test2 test3 test4
19:50:36 <ais523> now just to remove the junk &
19:50:38 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:50:39 <GregorR> I love the random data at the beginning.
19:50:42 <AnMaster> ais523, why is there at [0005] there
19:50:44 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:50:46 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:50:46 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:51:02 <ehird> !accumulate a shit
19:51:05 <GregorR> !addinterp rot13 bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/rot13.b
19:51:07 <ehird> !accumulate lol wat
19:51:07 <EgoBot> Interpreter rot13 installed.
19:51:19 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:51:21 <ehird> !rot13 MILKING COWS; FOR PROFIT
19:51:21 <EgoBot> ZVYXVAT PBJF; SBE CEBSVG
19:51:31 <ehird> AnMaster: the archive.
19:51:32 <AnMaster> I have seen it before somewhere
19:51:33 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:51:34 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:51:38 <GregorR> The olde brainfuck archive.
19:51:43 <fizzie> ^rot13 ZVYXVAT PBJF; SBE CEBSVG
19:51:43 <fungot> MILKING COWS; FOR PROFIT
19:51:46 <ais523> !accumulate accumulate
19:51:49 <GregorR> ais523: You don't seem to be doing so well :P
19:51:57 <ais523> oh well, I'll just leave the random ampersand there
19:52:07 <fizzie> The esolang mailing list was on sange.fi at some point, I think.
19:52:09 <ehird> ais523: what ampysandy
19:52:11 <GregorR> It's not an ampersand for me :P
19:52:12 <AnMaster> ais523, why do you need something in front at all
19:52:22 <Deewiant> For me it's an inverted-color K
19:52:23 <ais523> AnMaster: so that it enters the loop
19:52:31 <fizzie> Oh. I wonder if I'm subscribed, and with what address.
19:52:35 <ais523> ah, it's an ampersand for me
19:52:38 <ehird> ais523: make it [10]
19:52:43 <ehird> ais523: then it'll send a blank message
19:52:51 <GregorR> ehird: That's hyperuseful :P
19:53:01 <GregorR> No, because a blank message will waste your output line.
19:53:16 <AnMaster> ais523, make it a space instead
19:53:20 <GregorR> Output lines are precious, you only get one per input line :P
19:53:29 <ais523> AnMaster: that would make the input program longer
19:53:40 <EgoBot> rot13 accumulate ampersand
19:54:00 <ais523> actually, I'm about to go home
19:54:00 <ehird> !accumulate 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand
19:54:00 <EgoBot> rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand
19:54:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, do the programs run between input lines
19:54:04 <GregorR> !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:04 <EgoBot> rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand Then Gregor made it uselessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:05 <GregorR> ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:14 <ehird> !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:14 <EgoBot> ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:19 <ehird> !accumulate Then Gregor made it uselesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:19 <EgoBot> rot13 accumulate ampersand 19:53 EgoBot: rot13 accumulate ampersand Then Gregor made it uselessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
19:54:25 <GregorR> AnMaster: They're true daemons in the classic sense.
19:54:30 <ais523> so I'll clear it now, please put topics of conversation in there, not junk, and I'll look at it when I come bacj
19:54:34 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:54:37 <ehird> GregorR: a malevolent spirit?
19:54:37 <ais523> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:54:38 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:54:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:55:05 <pikhq> !c printf("\nPRIVMSG #esoteric: Flimble.\n")
19:55:06 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:55:06 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:55:18 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again ;
19:55:24 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:55:24 <EgoBot> That daemon is already running!
19:55:27 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again ; junk
19:55:30 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:55:30 <pikhq> !c printf("Test?\nPRIVMSG pikhq: Flimble.\n")
19:55:31 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:55:31 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:55:37 <ehird> junk is a topic of conversation
19:55:44 <ehird> evidence: we're talking about it
19:55:45 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:55:45 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:55:53 <pikhq> Aaaw, no raw IRC commands.
19:55:57 <GregorR> <ehird> evidence: we're talking about it // laaaaaaaaawl
19:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: i am logically correct, by your own admission:
19:56:03 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:06 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:06 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:08 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:56:09 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:56:12 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:15 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:15 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:16 <ehird> I can do this all day.
19:56:20 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:56:20 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:56:26 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:28 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:29 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:31 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:56:32 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:56:35 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:36 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:37 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:38 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:56:38 <EgoBot> ehird being annoying again
19:56:40 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:41 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:42 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:44 <nooga> you're being even more annoying than i
19:56:48 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being annoying again
19:56:48 <EgoBot> junk ehird being annoying again
19:56:51 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:56:52 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:56:52 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:56:59 <ehird> I plead insanity, by the way.
19:57:05 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being very annoying again. As usual.
19:57:05 <EgoBot> junk ehird being very annoying again. As usual.
19:57:09 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:57:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd like to point out that this is 50/50.
19:57:15 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:57:16 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:57:31 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate killed.
19:57:41 <ehird> !daemon accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:57:41 <EgoBot> Daemon accumulate running.
19:57:51 <ehird> !accumulate j u n k
19:58:03 <ehird> !accumulate rubbish
19:58:33 <AnMaster> !accumulate ehird being very annoying again. As usual.
19:58:36 <ehird> !daemon gain bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:58:47 <ehird> !gain , a chinese one to be precise
19:58:47 <EgoBot> junk , a chinese one to be precise
19:58:53 <AnMaster> !gain ehird being very annoying again. As usual.
19:58:53 <EgoBot> junk , a chinese one to be precise ehird being very annoying again. As usual.
19:59:14 <ehird> !daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
19:59:15 <EgoBot> Daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever running.
19:59:15 <AnMaster> why can't he just do something else
19:59:17 <ehird> The solution to anything!
19:59:21 <ehird> !I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever junk
19:59:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, sigh. Please make it ignore ehird or something. Since he can't behave.
19:59:50 <AnMaster> !kill I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever
19:59:50 <EgoBot> Daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever killed.
19:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: it's good to come out
20:00:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I see you don't know who you are.
20:00:37 <ehird> no, mine was a false statement since "I am AnMaster" was
20:00:37 <GregorR> OK children, it's time to go to kindergarten, stop fighting and eat your waffles.
20:00:54 <ehird> GregorR: of course, that only applies to the other person, I handled this maturely and responsibly
20:00:59 <ehird> ↑ what everyone thinks when they hear that
20:01:04 <AnMaster> now lets get back to relevant stuff.
20:01:15 <ehird> !daemon I_am_AnMaster_and_I_am_the_most_gayest_gay_person_ever bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
20:01:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, he is abusing the bot!
20:01:48 <GregorR> AnMaster: Actually, it outputs "No." whenever it receives a command from him.
20:02:03 <Robdgreat> you're going to make GregorR turn this channel around and go back home
20:02:08 <ehird> GregorR: so I assume that AnMaster didn't do anything wrong at all
20:02:13 <ehird> only contributing to half of it
20:02:23 <GregorR> ehird: I've stopped the cycle.
20:02:57 <GregorR> ehird: Given that AnMaster is not now using the bot at all, I'm gonna go with "I stopped the cycle"
20:03:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:03:21 <ehird> ^def accumulate bf >+>+[<[>,----------]++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[++++++++++.---------->]++++++++++.]
20:03:25 <ehird> ^accumulate 2cool4skool
20:04:14 <GregorR> Why is it that you two are so much more immature around each other than in any other situation anyway X_X
20:04:31 <ehird> Because he's annoying.
20:04:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> Because he's annoying.
20:04:40 <AnMaster> I don't know why ehird is. Meh.
20:05:07 * GregorR walks away from the channel for a while.
20:05:08 <ehird> It takes a startling amount of cognitive dissonance to partake in the exact same activity as someone else and claim it only makes *them* immature.
20:05:23 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Bloody fekking oy X_X <-- I wonder what happened there.
20:06:04 <ehird> Robdgreat: My voice is quite high-pitched, yes. ← I
20:06:08 <ehird> 'm funny because I deliberately misunderstand people
20:06:47 <Robdgreat> ehird: and then when I point out the hypocrisy I get "so the fact that I do it means you have to?!"
20:07:14 <ehird> Do what I say not what I do, unless it's obvious that you should be doing what I do, don't you know anything
20:08:19 <Robdgreat> I keep telling her my mind-reading license was revoked some years before we met.
20:08:50 <ehird> Marriage ruins everything!
20:14:38 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/ante] % runhaskell Main.hs
20:14:38 <ehird> Main.hs: Prelude.undefined
20:14:43 <ehird> one small step for a keyboard
20:14:48 <ehird> ONE GIANT LEAP FOR BRAINFUCK OPTIMIZATION KIND
20:15:38 <GregorR> ehird: Clearly your BF optimizer is working great :P
20:24:50 -!- xor has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
20:30:28 <ehird> someone link to lostkng
20:37:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:37:22 * oerjan was worried there for a moment
20:37:45 <oerjan> i turn on my laptop and the screen is black...
20:43:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
20:44:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection reset by peer).
20:44:39 <nooga> i became openCOBOL hacker
20:48:03 <kerlo> It'd be nice if Gmail could send you an email every time you get an email so that you know when to check.
20:58:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat
20:59:09 <oerjan> kerlo: maybe an RSS feed?
20:59:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: amusingly I was just reading some logs where you were talking about trying Uberman's; how did that go?
20:59:17 <ehird> oerjan: gmail has a feed.
20:59:41 <ehird> well, 29th, more like -06
21:00:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how long did you do it?
21:00:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the article says days 3-10 are the worst
21:00:40 <ehird> ...god created the something.
21:00:58 <kerlo> So how many of us have ehird on /ignore now?
21:01:03 <oerjan> the something something
21:01:05 <ehird> kerlo: you and AnMaster
21:01:18 <ehird> nobody else is stupid enough to miss out on me :-)
21:01:19 <bsmntbombdood> i was supposed to be waking up from a nap, slept about 4 hours through me hideously loud alarm, mother came into my room and tried to wake her, and i apparently sleep-talked her into letting me go back to sleep
21:04:55 <ehird> 13:35:14 <aarcane> speaking of brainfuck, how does one use the Database in brainfuck ?
21:05:06 <bsmntbombdood> and all i could manage to do with my extra time was sit in front of the computer and watch tv
21:05:59 <kerlo> I have my alarm clock set to make a little clicking noise at 4 AM.
21:06:34 <kerlo> The exact same little clicking noise wakes me up at 6 AM, but not once has it woken me up at 4 AM.
21:07:33 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
21:07:59 -!- coppro has joined.
21:08:01 <bsmntbombdood> the sound of my alarm clock is physically repulsive
21:08:23 <ehird> My alarm clock is my iPhone; it sounds fine, but it's simultaneously in its dock and trying to vibrate
21:08:31 <ehird> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
21:15:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
21:24:02 <ehird> "CPU: PIII 450MHz, Id 0x673, Stepping 3 "
21:24:09 <ehird> Nils M Holm uses that CPU.
21:24:17 <ehird> He wasn't joking when he said he had an old computer
21:24:21 <ehird> "Memory: 256MB PC133 SDRAM w/ ECC"
21:30:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: beats a p3 450mhz
21:30:45 <oerjan> heh, http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/wp-content/img200811/GraphJam3d.jpg
21:30:47 <ehird> heh, i have a core 2 duo 2.16ghz w/ 2.5gb of ram and *I* feel limited ... :-)
21:32:05 <oerjan> you filthy capitalists
21:32:05 <ehird> i think a 4-core core i7 3.2ghz w/ 12gb of (ddr3) ram should last a while at least
21:32:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i have 4gb on you bitch
21:32:25 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, tell me about it
21:35:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: very... but also delicious
21:35:26 <ehird> 20-40% faster memory access? delicious
21:35:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: oh, and with an i7 you have to use ddr3
21:35:50 <ehird> and the new AMDs are kind of crap
21:35:51 <Deewiant> Then you can run Mycology in less than 0.001 seconds!
21:36:00 <ehird> they're slightly less thermally challenged and competitive with core 2 extremes
21:36:09 <ehird> they are cheap though
21:36:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but ddr3 really is expensive
21:36:29 <ehird> £300 or so for 12GB
21:36:29 <Deewiant> The core 2s are still faster than the i7s for some CPU-bound stuff
21:36:37 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:36:46 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, but at 3.2ghz it's probably unnoticable unless you're doing wacky stuff
21:36:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah way
21:37:05 <ehird> that was high-clocked ram tho
21:37:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, I don't think it's a very big difference. Maybe a few minutes if you're doing video encoding or something.
21:37:30 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah - and that ram access is nice
21:37:35 <ehird> esp since it has a small l2
21:37:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i7s have hyperthreading too
21:37:56 <Deewiant> bsmntbombdood: Probably notrly since I pulled that out of my sleeve, google for benchmarks if you want rly
21:38:21 <ehird> oh, you also need a new mobo
21:39:37 <ehird> lemme look up the cost of 8gb "bog standard" ddr3
21:39:55 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227388
21:40:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $244 from mushkin http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=766
21:40:18 <ehird> not sure I'd trust ocz with my ram
21:40:41 <ehird> Deewiant: irrational human bias
21:40:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a company
21:41:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: who make things like a thing that reads your brainwaves to control a computer badly
21:41:12 <ehird> well, and good ssds, but let's not let facts get in the way of irrational bias
21:41:21 <Deewiant> I know them only for good RAM and semigood SSDs
21:42:39 * bsmntbombdood gives ehird $1500-2000 and tells him to buy me a computer
21:42:50 <ehird> damn I wish my new rig was that cheap :(
21:43:05 <ehird> ofc it would be if I wasn't trying to silence it
21:44:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm bored so I'm going to find the best parts I can for that money
21:44:21 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:44:24 -!- ehird has joined.
21:44:32 <ehird> ... that was intentional, totally
21:44:37 <ehird> i leave channels for dramatic effect
21:45:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: rightyho
21:45:23 <Deewiant> If you want hardware RAID that'll be another $1000
21:45:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you want hardware raid.
21:45:40 <ehird> Deewiant: I've seen ones for $700
21:45:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'll just assume you want hardware raid.
21:46:01 <ehird> and can compromise cpu clockage for it :P
21:46:03 <bsmntbombdood> hardware raid won't speed up raid1 significantly will it?
21:46:08 <ehird> dunno, ask Deewiant
21:46:10 <AnMaster> coppro, vanilla icecream > garlic > *
21:46:16 <ehird> Deewiant: will hardware raid speed up raid1 significantly
21:46:48 <ehird> right then no hardware raid
21:46:58 <bsmntbombdood> i imagine if you have a raid controller with a big cache it'll speed up anything, but it's probably not worth it if you have a large amount of ram
21:47:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you care about noise or coolers or any of that shit or can I have a break from fussing about that rubbish ;-)
21:48:00 <AnMaster> I wonder if there is any music using the lowest octave on the piano. Well of course there is music for other instruments using it. But I can't think of any for piano specifically
21:48:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'm currently hardlimiting to $1500 fwiw
21:48:38 <ehird> Which means you get a clock speed lower than 3.2ghz :-P
21:48:49 <ehird> 2.93ghz is half the price, lol.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> possibly the lowest *and* the highest at once :)
21:49:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 6gb of ram fine for you? nehalem works better with odd amounts iirc :-P
21:50:10 <ehird> 8gb or 12gb it is :P
21:50:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 6gb of ram fine for you? nehalem works better with odd amounts iirc :-P <-- [citation needed]
21:50:31 -!- tombom has joined.
21:50:39 <AnMaster> it seems rather strange that it would
21:50:49 <ehird> odd number of actual ram stix
21:51:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 12gb it is then
21:51:29 <ehird> unless i can find 8gb
21:52:05 <ehird> AnMaster: meh, it's true anyway :P
21:52:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: any video card requirements
21:52:34 <ehird> AnMaster: because the nehalem's integrated memory controller thing has 3 slots that's why
21:52:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: kay
21:52:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just onboard then?
21:53:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dammit, the mobo only has 3 ram slots, so I can't fit 12gb in there. [dealwith6gb/picknewmobo] _
21:54:11 <ehird> mobo picking process initiated
21:54:30 <ehird> Deewiant: find me 4gb of ddr3 ram on newegg
21:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, are you ordering for bsmntbombdood
21:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm finding the components for bsmntbombdood
21:54:53 <ehird> since I'm le bored
21:55:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah, $10 more gets you a mobo with 6 slots
21:55:48 <AnMaster> ehird, hm http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1024053/performance-ram-damage-nehalem
21:55:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ...but it has no onboard video, so I'll have to get an el cheapo card
21:56:23 <ehird> cpu+mobo+ram currently @ $1084.96
21:56:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you run linux right
21:57:20 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah I know
21:57:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just saw it as a reference on wp
21:58:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: rite?
21:58:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so, cheapest modern nvidia card I can find then
21:59:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, can't you find this yourself btw
22:01:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i assume you're ok with onboard audio
22:01:37 <ehird> and don't need a new monitor :P
22:01:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: probably nothing.
22:02:01 <ehird> 2x1tb drive time, rather
22:05:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I currently have a 2.93ghz i7, mobo, 12gb ddr3 ram, radeon 4350 gfx, and two hitachi 7200rpm 1tb drives at $1294.93
22:05:56 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: no <-- why not
22:06:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: any comments or shall i continue
22:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd do it anyway, i find this kind of thing fun
22:06:28 <AnMaster> I hate trying to find new computer
22:06:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no duh
22:06:46 <ehird> that's why I said "shall I continue"
22:06:47 <AnMaster> making sure it works with Linux. And wlan
22:07:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: any case requirements? some people like a transparent case showing loads of wires, it makes them feel 1337. i can't begin to imagine why
22:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that open case
22:07:36 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: nothing retarded like that, it should just be roomy
22:07:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just construct a new room in your house and put the hw in there
22:07:57 <ehird> http://instantrimshot.com
22:08:15 <ehird> hmm, wonder how much watts this thing needs
22:08:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so how roomy is roomy for you
22:09:11 <pikhq> ehird: I'd be more impressed if the room was necessary.
22:10:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how's 18.9"x8"x17.2" sound
22:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, bsmntbombdood http://www.antec.com/Believe_it/product.php?id=NzA0
22:11:35 <AnMaster> http://www.futurelooks.com/antec-skeleton-open-air-case-review/
22:12:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: kay, I got a psu and a case
22:12:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/467029.txt?key=rdogtxjhg9o05mr5xndwq
22:14:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so that's
22:15:01 <ehird> quad-core core i7 940 @ 2.93ghz
22:15:06 <ehird> bog standard i7 mobo
22:15:13 <ehird> 12gb of ddr3 ram (6x2)
22:15:36 <ehird> radeon hd 4350 512mb, 2*1tb 7200rpm drive
22:15:40 <ehird> and a blah regular roomy case
22:15:50 <ehird> i don't see any obvious non-graphics-intensive bottlenecks there
22:16:07 <Deewiant> Overkill GPU if he's not going to use it for anything
22:16:16 <ehird> Deewiant: It's $39.99
22:16:26 <ehird> And it's a relatively modern card
22:16:49 <bsmntbombdood> i can't remember if it's ATI or Nvidia that has bad linux support
22:16:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ati
22:16:57 <ehird> ati have bad linux support
22:17:07 <Deewiant> Yeaah, worse than a Radeon 9700
22:17:14 <ehird> Deewiant: he said gaming is for fags.
22:17:17 <ehird> he wanted onboard video
22:17:26 <ehird> I just got the cheapest card I recognized cause the mobo didn't have that
22:17:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hmm
22:17:43 <ehird> although the crappier atis have better linux support
22:17:46 <ehird> but right, i'll repick a nvidia
22:17:51 <ehird> i just don't know anything about nvidias :-)
22:18:09 <Deewiant> But anyway, that card is worse than something I was thinking of purchasing back in 2003
22:18:14 <Deewiant> I wonder why it has 512MB of RAM
22:18:32 <ehird> Deewiant: SPARKLE GeForce 9400 GT SFPX94GT1024U2 Video Card - Retail 1gb
22:18:44 <ehird> do YOU know anything about nvidias?
22:18:47 <Deewiant> Seems to be in the same category
22:18:56 <Deewiant> Also worse than that 2003 card :-P
22:19:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you care that the gfx card is worse than a card Deewiant was going to purchase in 2003
22:19:20 <Deewiant> Oh, scratch that, I was thinking of a 9700 Pro
22:19:28 <Deewiant> Which is a couple of times better than the 9700 that thing is worse than
22:19:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: good, the reviews say it's good performance for the cost anyway so let's just go with that
22:20:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/467034.txt?key=2sd0gfqxxsrbgd9euvs1eq
22:21:03 <ehird> Deewiant: newegg reviews say it's good and people were complaining about WD and saying this one was much better in them
22:21:15 <ehird> doesn't look like it should cause any troubles
22:21:16 <Deewiant> Everybody has a hard disk vendor they hate
22:21:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you might need a proprietary nvidia driver for that card
22:22:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what truth value does blah have
22:22:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: oh hm
22:22:21 <Deewiant> What's the status of the non-proprietary linux nvidia drivers
22:22:36 <ehird> Deewiant: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/nv
22:22:40 <ehird> no 3d acceleration
22:22:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what OS?
22:22:54 <ehird> god I hate that habit
22:23:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, it's X drivers
22:23:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you need 3d
22:23:10 <ehird> ie compiz or gaming, I assume not
22:23:16 <ehird> if not, go for http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/nv, which is open source.
22:24:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so, anything I need to change? :p
22:26:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I imagine, as a non-gamer programmer, the cpu/ram/hd are your main bottlenecks... well, the i7's gonna be enough for everything, 12gb is ridiculous and the 7200rpm hd... I think the most you can get for 1tb is 7500rpm, so i don't see an issue there
22:26:22 <ehird> so unless i've made a stupid mistake i think that's about right
22:27:02 <ehird> i think the main upgrade on that would be an SSD but the x25-m is like $300
22:27:14 <ehird> and alignment on those is a bitch (this may be my frustration speaking)
22:27:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: on linux you have to do arcane LVM stuff (how redundant) to get it aligned to the write boundary stuff
22:27:58 <ehird> no idea about freebsd.
22:28:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it'll be way faster than a regular hd anyway, iirc, though. at newegg the 80gb x25-m is $324.99
22:28:46 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167005
22:28:55 <ehird> your choice, if you're going for $1.5k i'd skip it
22:29:03 <ehird> since the hw in my paste brushes that limit anyway
22:29:20 <ehird> you had $2000 as an upper bound, if you're willing to go near there i'd probably go for the x25
22:29:42 <ehird> since the performance benefit is really high from what i've read
22:30:48 <ehird> i watched a video where two identically specced machines apart from one having an X25-M in booted up windows and opened some bloated applications; the SSD one was over 2x quicker to finish
22:31:03 <ehird> but for the price, yeah, not worth it if that's a concern
22:33:13 <bsmntbombdood> so a raid1 of those drives will get like 200mb/s sustained read
22:33:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what, of x25ms?
22:33:46 <ehird> and, well, depends, i mean, dunno about software raid
22:33:49 <ehird> Deewiant: do you know?
22:34:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: are you sure raid-1 is the best backup method for you?
22:34:31 <ehird> but raid 1 is backup to a degree
22:34:42 <ehird> the whole point is guarding against one disk failing
22:34:48 <Deewiant> It's protection against one-disk failure
22:35:04 <ehird> But if you back up you don't really need that
22:35:08 <Deewiant> Backup is protection against accidental rm $HOME and such
22:35:28 <Deewiant> You can backup as well as keep a raid
22:35:56 <ehird> But if I was backing up I'd skip raid 1
22:36:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: go for hardware raid then
22:36:23 <ehird> enjoy our $700 :-P
22:37:54 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116030 this is pretty cheap for a raid isn't it?
22:38:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that one has drivers included in freebsd sez a review
22:38:26 <Deewiant> If not, there's the fact that it's 2-port and SATA-only
22:38:32 <ehird> Deewiant: i'd assume the reviews would reflect that if so at least to a degree
22:38:45 <ehird> Deewiant: beats software raid, no?
22:39:03 <Deewiant> Hardware is not better than software by default
22:39:39 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816131001 lots of freebsd people reviewing this stuff
22:39:47 <pikhq> ehird, software RAID isn't that bad. Bit better than cheaper RAID cards, since those tend to be poorly implemented software RAID with a disk controller attached.
22:41:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird http://www.futurelooks.com/nzxt-tempest-midtower-atx-case-review/
22:41:15 <pikhq> Actually, unless the RAID involves parity, the difference between hardware and software RAID is almost moot...
22:41:52 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, that wasn't the main thing about it...
22:44:19 <pikhq> Also, Linux software RAID is rather ridiculously flexible.
22:44:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is a hallmark (right word?) of Linux IME
22:50:04 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: now, how much farther would the other $500 get me
22:54:46 -!- comex has joined.
22:54:56 <comex> http://prgmr.com/xen/
22:55:15 <pikhq> Yes, 'tis awesome.
22:56:09 * GregorR wonders why comex came here just to say that :P
22:56:15 <GregorR> !c printf("I'm on prgrm lawl")
22:56:21 <GregorR> !c printf("I'm on prgmr lawl")
22:57:20 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
22:57:23 <EgoBot> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented
22:57:46 <comex> !sh find / | xargs echo
22:58:02 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Oh? Whyzzat?
22:58:44 <kerlo> Hey, that's almost cheap.
22:59:26 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Their blog and log suggests they've been in business since 2006.
22:59:34 <kerlo> How much does long-term file storage cost?
22:59:56 <kerlo> And by "long-term", I mean "write to it once a week".
23:00:18 <kerlo> Write to it once a week, read from it every few months or something.
23:02:17 <kerlo> Presumably, overwriting means you pay again.
23:02:49 <comex> actually, just for kicks
23:03:05 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.10021: line 1: strace: command not found
23:03:21 <kerlo> It seems that pwd doesn't do anything.
23:03:30 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:03:31 <EgoBot> L2hvbWUvZWdvYm90L2Vnb2JvdC5oZy9tdWx0aWJvdF9jbWRzCg==
23:03:41 <kerlo> Hey, look at that.
23:03:47 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:03:56 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:04:00 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:04:06 <comex> !sh bash -c ':(){ :|:& };:'
23:04:06 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable
23:04:13 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: interps: Function not implemented
23:04:57 <kerlo> Oh, I'm receiving a transmission.
23:05:20 <kerlo> !sh echo 'echo foo' > foo; chmod +x foo; foo
23:05:20 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.14550: line 1: foo: Permission denied
23:05:28 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:05:59 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: .: Function not implemented
23:06:14 <kerlo> drwxrwxrwx 0 0 0 0 Jan 1 1970 .
23:06:38 -!- calamous has joined.
23:06:38 <comex> !sh bash -c 'echo hi > /dev/tcp/69.124.60.187/9999'
23:06:39 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /dev/tcp/69.124.60.187/9999: No such file or directory
23:07:10 <comex> !sh perl -e 'print 1;'
23:07:22 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: ..: Function not implemented
23:07:27 <comex> !sh ls -ld `pwd`/..
23:07:27 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds/..: Function not implemented
23:07:34 <comex> !sh ls -ld /home/egobot/egobot.hg
23:07:34 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg: Function not implemented
23:07:42 <comex> !sh ls -ld /home/egobot/*
23:07:43 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /home/egobot/egobot.hg: Function not implemented
23:07:44 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /home/: Function not implemented
23:07:50 <comex> !sh echo /home/egobot/*
23:07:50 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg
23:07:54 <comex> !sh echo /home/egobot/egobot.hg/*
23:07:54 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:07:58 <comex> !sh echo /home/egobot/*
23:07:58 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg
23:08:12 <comex> !sh strings /bin/ls | xargs echo
23:08:14 <kerlo> That looks like a really, really short executable.
23:08:15 <pikhq> !sh /bin/ls /home/
23:08:34 <EgoBot> 277 2151 110248 /bin/ls
23:08:51 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.14997: line 1: unamer: command not found
23:08:52 <EgoBot> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:09:16 <comex> !sh hd /tmp/compiled.*
23:09:16 <EgoBot> 00000000 7f 45 4c 46 02 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.ELF............|
23:09:24 <comex> !sh /tmp/compiled.*
23:10:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:10:19 <kerlo> I've had plans to write an imitation bash-bot for a while.
23:10:31 <calamous> Its the real deal. it runs in a sandbox
23:10:53 <comex> !sh kill $(pgrep -u `id -u`)
23:10:57 <pikhq> !sh echo "bar" > foo
23:10:57 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15253: line 1: foo: Permission denied
23:11:10 <pikhq> !sh echo "bar" > /tmp/foo
23:11:13 <comex> !sh /bin/kill $(pgrep -u `id -u`)
23:11:31 <pikhq> !sh echo "\n" >> /tmp/foo
23:11:43 <comex> !sh dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/foox
23:11:44 <EgoBot> /bin/dd: opening `/dev/zero': No such file or directory
23:12:07 <comex> !sh perl -e 'print 1 while 1;' > /tmp/foox
23:12:12 <kerlo> For five bucks a month, I could buy a teeny tiny server and give people root access to it.
23:12:21 <comex> kerlo: and then we could set up some stuff on it
23:12:24 <comex> it would almost be like a nomic
23:12:50 <kerlo> Except anyone would be able to do anything.
23:12:57 <comex> which reminds me, why don't I have #esoteric and #rootnomic as default joins
23:13:27 <comex> !sh stat /tmp/foox
23:13:35 <EgoBot> 0 1 10485760 /tmp/foox
23:13:43 <pikhq> kerlo: With the possibility of doing kernel patches while running. ;)
23:13:50 <comex> !sh cp /tmp/foox /tmp/fooy
23:14:03 <kerlo> I could dissolve Normish and get six teeny tiny servers for about the same price.
23:14:08 <EgoBot> 0 1 10485760 /tmp/fooy
23:14:28 <kerlo> More combined disk space, more combined RAM, no backups.
23:14:55 <comex> !sh i=0; while true; do cp /tmp/foox /tmp/foo$i; let i=i+11; done
23:15:23 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/foo* | xargs echo
23:15:23 <EgoBot> /tmp/foo /tmp/foo0 /tmp/foo11 /tmp/foo110 /tmp/foo121 /tmp/foo132 /tmp/foo143 /tmp/foo154 /tmp/foo165 /tmp/foo176 /tmp/foo187 /tmp/foo198 /tmp/foo209 /tmp/foo22 /tmp/foo220 /tmp/foo231 /tmp/foo242 /tmp/foo253 /tmp/foo264 /tmp/foo275 /tmp/foo286 /tmp/foo297 /tmp/foo308 /tmp/foo319 /tmp/foo33 /tmp/foo330 /tmp/foo341 /tmp/foo352 /tmp/foo363 /tmp/foo374 /tmp/foo385 /tmp/foo396 /tmp/foo407 /tmp/foo418 /tmp/foo429 /tmp/foo44 /tmp/foo440 /tmp/foo451 /tmp/foo
23:15:33 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/foo* | wc
23:15:41 <bsmntbombdood> when i get a new computer i'll probably do something with this one
23:15:52 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/* | tail -n 1
23:15:55 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/du: cannot read directory `/tmp/hsperfdata_egobot': Function not implemented
23:16:02 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:16:10 <AnMaster> !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo
23:16:14 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:16:30 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
23:16:33 <kerlo> Let's see, with my credit, I could get...
23:16:58 <kerlo> 2,400 mini-servers.
23:17:00 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n `
23:17:01 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16204: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``'
23:17:02 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:17:09 <AnMaster> !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo
23:17:34 <EgoBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
23:17:37 <AnMaster> !sh file /tmp/foo* | xargs echo
23:17:48 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:18:13 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:18:15 <kerlo> A month later, the payment would run out, and then I'd have to make minimum payments on $12,000.
23:18:24 <comex> !sh du -shc /tmp/foo* | tail -n 1
23:19:00 <AnMaster> !sh ls -l /tmp/foo0 | xargs echo
23:19:08 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /tmp/foo0: Function not implemented
23:19:09 <comex> !sh which nc netcat
23:19:30 <comex> !sh killall bash; rm /dev/foo*
23:19:35 <EgoBot> bash(8994): Operation not permitted
23:20:05 <AnMaster> comex, anyway it runs in a jail as a non-privileged user
23:20:18 <comex> !sh nc --help 2>&1 | md5sum
23:20:19 <EgoBot> 1dc0f3f78fd02036a71a61f3e37975ab -
23:20:24 <kerlo> I think I'll continue pondering my cute little Freenet-like thing.
23:20:24 <comex> !sh nc --help 2>&1
23:20:24 <EgoBot> /bin/nc: invalid option -- -
23:20:55 <comex> oh, I thought it was GregorR's bot
23:20:56 <kerlo> !sh ping 127.0.0.1
23:20:56 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping'
23:21:25 <comex> heh, that's interesting
23:21:27 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1266358
23:21:30 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1924550
23:21:34 <AnMaster> comex, since it was me who told him about -m owner
23:21:40 <AnMaster> [!] --uid-owner userid[-userid] Match local UID
23:21:40 <AnMaster> [!] --gid-owner groupid[-groupid] Match local GID
23:21:40 <AnMaster> [!] --socket-exists Match if socket exists
23:22:47 <comex> !perl print `whoami`;
23:22:48 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1256859
23:22:50 <comex> !perl print `whoami`;
23:22:51 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1079595
23:22:53 * pikhq wonders if someone could get UML in a single C file, so as to make EgoBot run a sub-Linux. :p
23:23:27 <AnMaster> is leaking some kind of watery fluid.
23:23:31 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:23:35 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.24540: line 1: iptables: command not found
23:23:40 <EgoBot> Usage: /usr/bin/whoami [OPTION]...
23:24:09 <EgoBot> Can't call method "echo" without a package or object reference at /tmp/input.25845 line 1.
23:24:13 <AnMaster> it is using phash or pash or something
23:24:14 <EgoBot> Usage: /usr/bin/id [OPTION]... [USERNAME]
23:24:29 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
23:24:54 <comex> !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done
23:25:02 <kerlo> I guess your mouse wheel contains the fluid that it is leaking, and it is leaking because the containment is no longer intact.
23:25:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:25:12 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
23:25:17 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
23:25:32 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
23:25:55 <ehird> !sh while true; do ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l; done
23:26:14 <comex> !sh kill `pgrep -f 'while true'`
23:26:14 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.31467: line 1: kill: (31026) - Operation not permitted
23:26:16 <kerlo> What's ehird doing now?
23:26:30 <ehird> the same thing comex did but more efficient
23:26:38 <comex> too bad only you get updates
23:26:54 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
23:26:57 <ehird> comex: complain to GregorR
23:27:53 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> the scrollwheel on this mouse <AnMaster> is leaking some kind of watery fluid.
23:28:12 <ehird> AnMaster: take apart mouse, inspect
23:28:15 <kerlo> AnMaster: turn the mouse upside down and leave it there.
23:28:25 <AnMaster> kerlo, it only leaks under preasure
23:28:28 <EgoBot> Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.2033": No such file or directory
23:28:31 <kerlo> Then don't apply pressure.
23:28:37 <AnMaster> I think I got a flat scroll wheel
23:28:40 <comex> ^ what kind of error is that
23:28:43 <EgoBot> Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.2655": No such file or directory
23:28:54 <EgoBot> Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.3137": No such file or directory
23:29:01 <AnMaster> but this is first time I heard of flat scroll wheel
23:29:05 <EgoBot> Can't open perl script "/tmp/input.3640": No such file or directory
23:29:30 <comex> so, I guess the sandbox user is writing to /tmp/input.*; it's failing in this case
23:29:41 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc-l
23:29:41 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.5161: No such file or directory
23:29:43 <comex> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
23:29:43 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.5263: No such file or directory
23:29:53 <comex> I broke the world :p
23:30:15 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.6564: No such file or directory
23:30:19 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.6765: No such file or directory
23:30:55 <AnMaster> comex, GregorR isn't around to fix it
23:30:57 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 better_hello bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
23:31:02 <EgoBot> Running daemons: accumulate
23:31:03 <EgoBot> kill: !kill <name>. Kill a running daemon.
23:31:18 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9150: No such file or directory
23:31:32 <EgoBot> FATAL: Failed to process file "/tmp/input.9269": No such file or directory
23:31:46 <AnMaster> you managed to make it impossible to write files in /tmp
23:31:58 <AnMaster> comex, care to tell me what the heck you did exactly
23:32:03 <fizzie> No, he filled it with broken symlinks.
23:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it was me
23:32:15 <fizzie> <comex> !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done
23:32:28 <ehird> so my checking just automated the checking
23:32:49 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9302: No such file or directory
23:32:57 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9337: No such file or directory
23:33:13 <kerlo> At this rate, we only need to fail about 60 more times.
23:33:24 <AnMaster> kerlo, check the number of digits
23:33:39 <kerlo> The rate keeps changing.
23:33:39 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9370: No such file or directory
23:33:43 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9404: No such file or directory
23:33:46 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9438: No such file or directory
23:33:47 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9501: No such file or directory
23:33:47 <comex> I think it's based on the time
23:33:51 <EgoBot> /bin/cat: /tmp/input.9553: No such file or directory
23:33:54 <kerlo> Yeah, 1,000 more times.
23:34:02 <fizzie> Personally I think it's the PID, and it wrap-arounds at 32k.
23:34:10 <kerlo> It's not increasing by one every time.
23:34:26 <comex> ehird: you fail it
23:34:28 <fizzie> Based on the fact that it went up to 30491 and then wrapped to 2033.
23:34:32 <ehird> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
23:34:39 <kerlo> Don't get me started.
23:34:43 <comex> http://pastie.org/467093
23:34:46 <AnMaster> ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
23:34:46 <comex> could've been a <3 thunder
23:34:53 <kerlo> ^; ^^; ^ ^; ^^^^; ^ ^; ^^ ^^; ^ ^ ^ ^; ^^^^^^^^
23:35:00 <ehird> comex: fuck <3 thunders
23:35:26 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.9727: No such file or directory
23:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: http://wiki.xkcd.com/irc/Heart_Thunder
23:36:15 <ehird> #xkcd on foonetic.
23:44:29 <ehird> Deewiant: bsmntbombdood wants to know how to use two monitors
23:44:38 <ehird> (card = http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187037)
23:47:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:55:05 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: /tmp/input.9996: No such file or directory
23:57:51 <calamous> <-- GregorR at a friend's place
23:58:51 <pikhq> So, Gregor voyages forth?
23:58:56 <pikhq> ehird: Been in #xkcd?
23:59:22 <ehird> pikhq: Never. I know that someone I would rather not encounter went there in 2006 at least and may still do.
23:59:45 <ehird> !sh for i in ... nah, I'm too kind
23:59:45 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.10153: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
00:00:03 <ehird> calamous: limit the number of files on the system?
00:00:10 <ehird> eg it resets if you write more than 100 files
00:00:10 <pikhq> I tend to spend time in #xkcd, on the offchance that there's interesting things there.\
00:00:45 <pikhq> Though the smaller channels on Foonetic are far better; signal/noise ratio and all that.
00:01:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm sure Deewiant will be here sometime :P
00:02:23 <calamous> !sh for i in {1..99999}; do ln -s /home/egobot/egobot.hg/foo /tmp/input.$i; done
00:02:36 <ehird> calamous: it took an hour or so
00:02:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: bsmntbombdood wants to know how to use two monitors
00:02:49 <ehird> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
00:02:53 <ehird> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
00:02:54 <ehird> !sh ls /tmp/input.* | wc -l
00:02:54 <EgoBot> /bin/bash: line 1: :ehird!n=ehird@208.78.103.223: command not found
00:03:06 <calamous> OK, I made it delete them at the end, but that's clearly not good enough.
00:03:19 <ehird> calamous: just limit the number of writes to 100 files
00:03:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tell AnMaster how he failed :-P
00:03:35 <calamous> ehird, You can only limit the number of total open files.
00:03:44 <ehird> calamous: To 100, then.
00:04:04 <ehird> er i misread AnMaster
00:04:18 <calamous> ehird, The number of open files is limited to a very low number.
00:04:27 <calamous> ehird, The problem is that it doesn't keep them open after it writes them.
00:04:28 <AnMaster> which is better if they are different height
00:04:36 <AnMaster> having different height is confusing
00:06:46 <ehird> AnMaster: do you think http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187037 can handle dueling monitors
00:07:02 <ehird> the specs seem to imply no
00:08:20 <ehird> seems to cost less, so I assume the 9400 GT is better
00:08:30 <ehird> for values of better equal to still not a good card but bsmntbombdood doesn't want a good card :P
00:09:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I used two TFTs, one vga only and one dvi +vga
00:09:53 <AnMaster> so one went on dvi the other on vga
00:44:39 <bsmntbombdood> my current monitor is vga so that would probably work
00:56:34 <ehird> "Intel(R) Core i7 PC's from £7"
01:15:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Transmission
01:16:38 <ehird> Which is minimal and awesome and <3
01:20:46 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:21:56 * bsmntbombdood wonders if he should actually buy ehird's computer
01:22:12 <ehird> you want an upgrade, I got it for the price you wanted, prophet? :-P
01:25:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: for the same budget, the only real other options there are is getting an amd processor instead, but that'd just be sacrificing speed and you'd have some of the budget just lying around doing nothing
01:25:56 <ehird> so if you'd upgrade to that budget anyway, it's pretty much what you'd come out with
01:26:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: over what?
01:26:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: amd's top processors are competitive with core 2 -- the LAST generation of intel processors
01:26:34 <ehird> i7 has the yummy integrated memory
01:26:38 <ehird> so a lot less latency
01:26:44 <ehird> and it has some nice architechtural improvements
01:26:52 <ehird> more speed clock-for-clock under a lot of situations
01:27:25 <ehird> i7 >>> amd phenom black edition 2 electric boogaloo > core 2
01:29:11 <pikhq> I was under the impression that AMD's top processors were competitive with some of the lesser i7 chips, making them great if you're on a budget.
01:29:33 <ehird> pikhq: i haven't seen that; but the i7 was a 2.93ghz
01:29:41 <ehird> so not exactly a lesser i7 chip
01:30:03 <pikhq> AMD's existence for most of the company's history *has* depended on being cheaper than Intel chip, so *shrug*.
01:30:03 <ehird> there's only 3.2ghz and 3.33ghz (the latter i haven't seen sold anywhere) above that
01:30:24 <ehird> pikhq: but that integrated memory controller + ddr3 = definite yum
01:30:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err
01:30:42 <ehird> the i7 comes with it i'm pretty sure
01:31:10 <ehird> i've seen people say "stock cooler" referring to i7s
01:31:10 <pikhq> ehird: Integrated memory controller? I've had one for 3 years, and it was old then. :p
01:31:17 <ehird> pikhq: er, that's not what i meant
01:31:25 <ehird> pikhq: "On-die memory controller: the memory is directly connected to the processor. It is called the uncore part and runs at a different clock (uncore clock) of execution cores. "
01:31:38 <ehird> 20-40% less memory latency has been reported
01:31:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "Cooling DeviceHeatsink and Fan included "
01:31:53 <ehird> from the spec page of the i7
01:32:03 <pikhq> And AMD's done that since they introduced AMD64. Your point? :p
01:32:11 <ehird> pikhq: i'm not sure that's the same thing
01:33:05 <pikhq> Wikipedia says it is.
01:33:13 <ehird> hmm looks like the same thing; still what i've read puts the i7's memory access faster
01:33:40 <ehird> I expect AMD will come out with an i7 competitor _sometime_
01:33:46 <ehird> but atm the i7 is the best choice imo
01:33:55 <pikhq> Can't say I blame Intel for doing it; it *is* a rather easy way to get better memory access speeds.
01:35:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if you do go with it will you go with the x25-m? i'd recommend it if you do have the $300 extra budget (hmm, I distinctly recall asking this before...)
01:36:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, that sounds wise
01:37:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: raid-1ing that will leave you with only 500gb of space
01:37:31 <pikhq> Hmm. No wonder the i7's somewhat higher performance; it's the newer architecture.
01:37:43 <ehird> pikhq: Durr, Nehalem's the whole point of an i7 :P
01:37:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: newly calculated total inc. ssd: $1689.91
01:38:52 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: what makes you think that mobo is a good choice?
01:39:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: first, I went with the stock Intel mobo for i7
01:39:10 <ehird> then i realised it had only 3 ram slots
01:39:14 <ehird> so I searched newegg
01:39:25 <ehird> and that was a high-rated one that's the same as the intel one but w/ 6 ram slots
01:40:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: they don't seem to have really changed the intel mobo apart from adding the more slots and sth
01:40:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how many do you need?
01:40:56 <ehird> this one looks bette
01:41:08 <ehird> Cons: As noted in previous reviews, the BIOS needs an update out of box before you can install triple channel RAM. I loaded one stick of RAM and installed windows
01:42:02 * ehird searches newegg for x58
01:42:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but how many pci slost are you gonna use?
01:42:25 <bsmntbombdood> i would like to play with some coproccesors in the future
01:42:40 <ehird> PCI Express 2.0 x16: 3 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (at x16/x16/x4 mode)
01:43:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131359
01:43:25 * ehird amends his spec document to include these
01:44:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the mobo actually saves money
01:45:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: for when you return: http://pastie.org/467175.txt?key=ijtxvejybwknzzyr4yea
01:49:24 <ehird> My conclusion: You can build a top-top of the range PC (sans video card) for around $1.6k.
01:53:13 <pikhq> And the video card isn't really worth it unless you're playing Crysis on 3 different monitors.
01:53:40 <ehird> pikhq: Weeeeeeeeeeeeel, that GeForce 9400 GT seems rather the shit as far as cards you're actually gonna use goes.
01:53:49 <ehird> It's just a stand-in for the missing on-board video on the mobo for this machine.
01:54:33 <ehird> " it ran between 65 and 72 deg C"
01:54:39 <ehird> i wonder if that's under large load
01:54:41 <ehird> because that's a hot card
01:55:08 <pikhq> Eh, as far as graphics cards go, I'm not all that picky.
01:55:22 <ehird> the reviews seem ok
01:55:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the gfx card has an audio card built in
01:55:54 <ehird> that apparently is better than onboard video
01:56:56 <pikhq> My current standards: able to handle Source engine games and able to render 1080p h264 in realtime. And the latter becomes "Can handle 1080p" if my CPU's fast enough to decode 1080p h264 in realtime...
01:57:21 <ehird> My standards: Be the best fanless card you can get.
01:57:39 <ehird> (atm that's the radeon hd 4850)
01:57:42 <pikhq> Completely different standards, but likely to get similar results.
01:57:56 <ehird> pikhq: no way, the radeon 4850 can do much more than that
01:58:06 <ehird> it's the third best single (non-X2) card ATI offer
01:58:23 <ehird> i wish newegg had a uk version
01:58:33 <pikhq> I think it's the best card I could actually see myself bothering to purchase, though.
01:58:46 <pikhq> Much beyond that seems... Silly.
01:59:31 <ehird> pikhq: Heck, even with the 4870X2 -- the best card ATI sells -- Crysis at 19xx-xxxx (I forget what the exact res is) with all settings on high or very high only runs at 20 or so fps
01:59:40 <ehird> Games are wicked demanding
02:00:19 <pikhq> And I play games about a generation behind what's current.
02:00:41 <pikhq> So, it'll be another 5 years or so before I get around to playing Crysis. :p
02:01:08 <ehird> Crysis kind of looks shit :P
02:01:31 <pikhq> Ah, but it's very expensive shit.
02:01:37 <pikhq> And you're thinking 1920x1080.
02:03:32 <ehird> maybe i should build my own system, 'cept i hate thermal paste
02:04:23 <ehird> pikhq: maybe, maybe
02:04:39 <ehird> I'd prefer to pay more to get a silent system from people who know what they're doing in that area, prolly
02:04:46 <pikhq> I build my systems as a matter of habit...
02:05:11 <pikhq> Of course, I upgrade my systems piecemeal, so not exactly what you're dealing with.
02:05:27 * pikhq has a couple of 10 to 15 year old parts
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02:49:04 <calamous> !c printf("addr of main %p\n", main);
02:49:08 <calamous> !c printf("addr of main %p\n", main);
02:50:04 <pikhq> !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", __start);
02:50:22 <pikhq> Fik. Different entry point. XD
02:50:38 <pikhq> !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", _start);
02:50:48 <pikhq> !c printf("addr of entry point %p\n", start);
02:50:54 <pikhq> Sure I'll get it one of these days.
02:52:38 <pikhq> Huh. main *is* the entry point.
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03:24:11 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: i forgot, i need an optical-disc drive also
03:27:25 <GregorR> OK, now I have to think of a way to fix the shared /tmp/input.* problem
03:35:49 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /tmp: Function not implemented
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03:57:40 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /tmp: Function not implemented
03:58:13 <pikhq> What the fnuck is it doing, I wonder...
03:59:47 <GregorR> ls stats or something, Idonno
04:05:04 <EgoBot> /bin/mkdir: created directory `/tmp/home'
04:05:11 <EgoBot> /bin/sh: line 6: cd: -v: invalid option
04:05:25 <GregorR> !psh export HOME=/tmp/home
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04:09:12 <GregorR> !psh wget http://google.com/
04:09:12 <EgoBot> --2009-05-04 03:09:12-- http://google.com/
04:09:13 <EgoBot> Resolving google.com... failed: Name or service not known.
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04:46:47 <kerlo> So, I guess I'm trying to find out where Firefox keeps its profiles under Windows.
04:56:34 <lifthrasiir> somewhere in %userprofile%\Local Settings\Application Data\Mozilla\, iirc.
05:02:12 <kerlo> Users/Fozzie/Local Settings is empty.
05:02:22 <kerlo> No, those forward slashes are not necessary.
05:09:35 <kerlo> I'm not using Windows right now; I want to share a profile between Windows and Linux.
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06:01:29 <kerlo> Wow. YouTube under Linux here sounds really fun.
06:04:21 <kerlo> I meant that it sounds very slow and choppy.
06:04:33 <kerlo> I just recorded an hour-long audio file. It took a couple seconds.
06:05:02 <puzzlet_> how about other video websites
06:05:31 <puzzlet_> could be a problem with flash plugin
06:06:46 <kerlo> A problem that also exists with Sound Recorder?
06:07:26 <kerlo> Here, I'll click "record" again.
06:08:09 <kerlo> It says it's been recording for four hours.
06:08:27 <puzzlet_> no, tell me it's not the alsa problem again
06:08:56 <kerlo> This problem appears to be entirely distinct from the problem I had before.
06:09:11 <kerlo> Now it says it's been recording for ten hours.
06:09:18 <kerlo> Maybe some other people have had this same problem.
06:10:40 <kerlo> This is why I don't generally use Linux.
07:06:08 <GregorR> In my experience, the people who have the ever-dwindling set of hardware that Linux doesn't support are the people who think it has terrible hardware support :P
07:06:23 <GregorR> (Which is to say, that sounds like a problem with the sound driver)
07:34:29 <bsmntbombdood> you mean...the people who have problems with linux are the ones who have problems with linux?
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10:42:16 <AnMaster> <GregorR> OK, now I have to think of a way to fix the shared /tmp/input.* problem
10:42:28 <AnMaster> that avoids race conditions too
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11:54:00 <kerlo> AnMaster: Gnome Sound Recorder.
11:54:15 <AnMaster> no clue about that. Since I don't use Gnome
11:54:26 <AnMaster> I would blame it on gnome probably
11:54:49 <AnMaster> try audacity, it is a good sound recording and editing program.
11:56:21 * kerlo reboots under the alibi of figuring out where the Firefox profile resides
12:16:53 <kerlo> Windows still won't make any connections to the Internet, but I made a symbolic link from a Firefox profile on Linux to one on Windows, and it worked quite magically.
12:20:46 <Deewiant> I just set the profile in Firefox to point to /mnt/...
12:33:58 <AnMaster> why dual boot. The only reason I can think of is massive 3D games.
12:34:36 <AnMaster> for most other windows only stuff you can usually use either wine or virtualbox/vmware-server/whatever
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12:42:26 <impomatic> The #corewars channel will be moving to freenode if anyone is interested.
12:42:38 <impomatic> By the way, is anything happening with BF Joust?
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16:09:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: so optical drive eh
16:09:57 <ehird> I'm sure i can do that :P
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16:11:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: shall I throw in a floppy drive? some firmware upgrades still come on those.
16:11:48 <pikhq> Floppies are cheap...
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16:15:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: http://pastie.org/467702.txt?key=7xpp0vdnf1ukje2vbjdq
16:16:00 <ehird> $1709.39, same as before but w/ dvd/cd-reader/writer and floppy drive
16:18:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: btw, graphics cards are useful for vector computation etc as well as just graphics...
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16:23:35 <ais523> meh, what happened to it?
16:23:40 <ehird> ais523: i did !accumulate junk
16:23:51 <ehird> then AnMaster did !accumulate ehird being annoying again, or something
16:23:56 <ehird> and we went at it for a few hours
16:24:26 <ehird> result: AnMaster's ignoring me, keeps saying I'm immature, ignores the fact that it was 50% him, and also that if we were arguing over junk it's obviously a topic we're discussing :D
16:24:28 <AnMaster> a lot less than that. You killed it every time.
16:24:38 <ehird> that ignore lasted a long time there AnMaster
16:24:41 <AnMaster> ehird, GregorR made the bot ignore you too
16:24:46 <ehird> a few hours perhaps
16:24:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, to break the chain
16:30:39 <ehird> "Ubuntu To Ship With Super Talent SSDs" ← I totally thought this meant that ubuntu cds would come with an ssd, not the otherway around
16:36:36 <ais523> because there wasn't a decent use for them?
16:36:36 <GregorR> Because there was some issue with them leaving cruft behind I haven't resolved yet.
16:37:03 <GregorR> There's no decent use for most of what EgoBot supports, but I don't want a chicken with its head cut off taking 100% CPU on Codu :P
16:37:40 <GregorR> Anyway, they'll probably come back when I can fix some bugs.
16:37:55 <pikhq> Don't kill Codu with Egobot. ;)
16:38:10 <GregorR> Or alternatively, if I can figure out a way to use chkpt to checkpoint between lines, then I can actually have daemons only run while in use.
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17:08:49 <lifthrasiir> ehird: if you are interested in esotope-bfc, it now supports exact loop counting for nontrivial deltas.
17:09:02 <ehird> example code/output?
17:09:11 <lifthrasiir> http://pastie.org/private/4z2i9vo3y8kviwet42fma
17:10:16 <ehird> One of the most publicized changes in Windows Me, was that it no longer included real mode MS-DOS.[3] With real-mode support removed, Windows Me can boot up a couple of seconds faster, without loss of Windows functionality. Autoexec.bat and Config.sys are no longer executed during startup by IO.SYS, and the system cannot boot to a MS-DOS command prompt or exit to DOS when Windows has booted. Because of this, applications that needed real mode DOS to run,
17:10:18 <ehird> such as older disk utilities, did not run under Windows Me.
17:10:22 <ehird> if ((mptr[1]%2) != 0) {
17:10:24 <ehird> lifthrasiir: that's hot.
17:10:26 <ehird> is that really general?
17:10:43 <ehird> ais523: take a look at that, it's awesome
17:10:52 <ehird> lifthrasiir: congrats, your BF interp is the est
17:11:15 <pikhq> ehird: Uh, lies. Windows ME shipped with real mode MS-DOS. *However*,, it was not enabled by default.
17:11:17 <lifthrasiir> not yet, i realized that generalization while looking at bfdb ;)
17:11:31 <lifthrasiir> it translates every possible case of while(mptr[k]!=x) { ... mptr[k]+=delta; }.
17:11:48 <ehird> lifthrasiir: bfdb?
17:11:48 <pikhq> Wikipedia lies, then.
17:11:55 <ehird> pikhq: I used ME :-P
17:12:06 <pikhq> I turned on real-mode DOS in ME.
17:12:36 <ehird> lifthrasiir: never heard of it
17:12:44 <lifthrasiir> it needs a fix to compile in recent gcc, but it seems worth looking
17:12:48 <ais523> I'd like to see how esotope-bfc.py handles gcc-bf output, actually
17:13:20 <ais523> presumably it isn't yet good enough to deduce that I'm simulating a hardware stack and a stack of frame pointers?
17:13:40 <lifthrasiir> it cannot handle array operations yet, and i think that is quite challenging
17:14:15 <ehird> lifthrasiir: try compiling with clang, not gcc
17:14:17 <lifthrasiir> anyway, if you are interested see http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py for recent version.
17:14:43 <ehird> that's not c++, lifthrasiir
17:14:44 <ehird> I mean your output
17:14:51 <ehird> but yes, clang's c/c++/obj-c support is mostly okay
17:16:54 <ais523> in other news, it turns out that MS Office's new native ODF support is abysmal
17:17:03 <ais523> for instance, it strips out formulas when loading spreadsheets
17:18:07 <ehird> openoffice is so bloated
17:18:19 <ehird> 17:17 ehird: Does clang/llvm do the optimization of changing some array positions into variables? like, {int x[2];x[0]=1;x[1]=2;return x[0]+x[1]} becoming {int x0,x1;x0=1;x1=2;return x0+x1}
17:18:21 <ehird> 17:18 sabre: ehird: yes
17:18:23 <ehird> 17:18 ehird: sabre: yay!
17:18:26 <ehird> lifthrasiir: yep, use clang.
17:19:39 <ehird> @openoffice.org users: try abiword & gnumeric :P
17:19:54 <ais523> gnumeric's ODF support is also awful, I think
17:20:02 <ais523> but then, it doesn't claim to do it correctly
17:20:07 <ais523> it looks like they've only just started implementing it
17:20:16 <ehird> I mostly meant abiword
17:20:22 <ehird> but then I thought people might complain about spreadsheets
17:20:26 <ehird> so i added gnumeric
17:20:52 <ehird> ais523: openoffice is pretty bad though; it doesn't pick up fonts in ~/.fonts for instance IME
17:20:58 <ehird> which is really irritating
17:21:06 <ehird> bloody portability :)
17:21:16 <ais523> openoffice manages to not follow the conventions on any system
17:21:21 <ais523> the difference is, on Windows, I'm glad it doesn't
17:21:41 <ehird> I always thought that openoffice was Java because it was so badly integrated... but Java is more integrated and less ugly!
17:21:48 <ehird> I don't even know how they did it
17:21:56 <ais523> openoffice is I suspect mostly written in Java
17:22:08 <ais523> or by people who write in the same style, anywa
17:22:12 <ehird> well, it's a Sun project
17:22:19 <ehird> but it doesn't use Swing
17:22:23 <ehird> and I don't think it uses SWT
17:22:30 <ehird> or if it does use either, it hacks them weirdly
17:22:34 <ehird> it's what eclipse uses
17:22:45 <ais523> oh, I like AWT anyway, though
17:22:54 <ais523> it's easily the best of the windowing systems Java has come up with so far
17:23:08 <ais523> AWT = Java is a programming language
17:23:28 <ais523> personally I think treating Java as a programming language makes more sense
17:23:57 <ehird> ais523: you can make swing use native widgets
17:24:01 <ehird> not native text rendering, though
17:24:45 <ais523> native-widget swing would be an improvement, certainly
17:24:46 <fizzie> I did a bit of SWT once; it wasn't too shabby. It's pretty much just a wrapper for native GUI toolkits over JNI; except of course using the SWT abstractions.
17:24:59 <ehird> that's java's c ffi
17:25:06 <ehird> well, not much of an ffi, you have to tailor your code to it
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17:25:11 <ehird> c extension interface
17:25:24 <ehird> well, not specifically C
17:25:29 <ehird> but it'd be a pain to use anything else
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17:25:39 <ehird> it has some c++ stuff i think though
17:26:01 <ais523> someone link Java to Befunge-98 via C and INTERCAL
17:26:03 <ehird> to hell with portable GUI libs, anyway
17:26:06 <fizzie> Yes, in C++ code you can pretend you're calling Java classes, or something.
17:26:08 <ehird> you can't automate UI guidelines
17:26:24 <ehird> you need to have a separate UI for each platform if you want to have a good UI
17:26:53 <ais523> the Gnome/KDE mirrorflip is one of the most annoying things about that
17:27:15 <ehird> ais523: gnome/kde's minor compared to anything_on_linux vs OS X
17:27:22 <ehird> you basically have to completely forget your other UI to go either way
17:27:31 <ehird> i get using a portable toolkit if you just want something that works
17:27:43 <ehird> but just use Tk or something; that's really easy to use, it's pig ugly most of the time though
17:27:48 <ais523> really? the most annoying thing for me when I had to use OS X on someone else's laptop for a bit was muddling the apple and control keys
17:27:50 <ehird> but that doesn't matter if you just want something that works
17:27:53 <ais523> and the lack of pgup/pgdn
17:27:57 <pikhq> It integrates well with everything but Linux.
17:28:05 <ehird> tk is horrid on os x
17:28:07 <ehird> it's fine on windows
17:28:12 <ais523> so it was really keyboard layout confusion, rather than anything to do with the UI itself
17:28:19 <ehird> ais523: for the user, there may not be much difference at first sight
17:28:25 <pikhq> Hrm, last time I used Tk on OS X, it looked like native widgets...
17:28:26 <ehird> but the philosophy is massively different
17:28:30 <ehird> pikhq: yes, to a degree
17:28:38 <ehird> but half-heartedly doing something on OS X is a bit laughable
17:28:52 <ehird> they pretty much only get buttons and checkboxes right
17:29:04 <ehird> and integration goes far further than how the widgets look anyway
17:29:20 <pikhq> Hrm. Either I used some odd OS X-only fork, or it's gone downhill over time.
17:29:37 <pikhq> Because I remember it being, well, native.
17:29:38 <ehird> pikhq: Or you're not an obsessive-compulsive OS X user (redundant) that notices things :-)
17:29:48 <ehird> For instance, it uses a white background and the window has no padding by default.
17:29:56 <ehird> And text boxes are totally non-native
17:30:01 <pikhq> I'm picky about things looking right. ;)
17:30:03 <ehird> I suspect it of merely rendering things that look like native widgets
17:30:07 <ais523> for me, it's not widget look that matters, but behaviour
17:30:08 <ehird> not actually using them
17:30:14 <ehird> ais523: yep, tk gets both wrong
17:30:22 <ais523> e.g. on Gnome I can right-click on a scrollbar tab to scroll to the other end
17:30:32 <ais523> that doesn't work anywhere else I've tried, but it's really useful
17:30:38 <pikhq> I *distinctly* remember a pinstripe background (it was old OS X).
17:30:42 <ais523> (as in, if I right-click on scroll-up, it scrolls ot the top)
17:32:44 <pikhq> It was some "Tcl/Tk Aqua" with batteries included Tcl distribution. Probably some fork to make it act right, then.
17:37:27 <ehird> Nah, it's in mainline, must just have fallen behind
17:37:31 <ehird> Or at least, it comes with OS X
17:41:19 <ais523> you know how in C, if you allocate a variable, it isn't initialized and you get whatever happens to be in memory at the time?
17:41:27 <ais523> you can do that in Perl6 too, but you have to request it explicitly
17:41:51 <ais523> is it the default, though?
17:42:01 <GregorR> No, in D you get zero'd stuff.
17:42:10 <Deewiant> By default integers are zero, floats are nan, chars are all-bits-1
17:42:54 <pikhq> 0xFE? That's an odd choice.
17:42:57 <ais523> I do like the idea of lazy exceptions, though
17:43:13 <pikhq> ais523: That's all bits.
17:43:29 <ais523> not "all bits but one one"
17:43:35 <pikhq> I read that as all bits minus one.
17:43:45 <Deewiant> I don't understand how "all bits" means a numeric value :-P
17:43:48 <pikhq> Okay, 0xFF is slightly less odd.
17:44:01 <pikhq> (I'd just go with 0x00, myself)
17:44:08 <fizzie> So 255 is "less odd" than 254? Odd definition for odd.
17:44:13 <Deewiant> Possibly 0xffffffff for UTF-32
17:44:29 <pikhq> fizzie: 254 just seems arbitrary.
17:44:42 <ais523> the idea behind lazy exceptions is that if something goes wrong when calling a function, it returns a return value that throws an exception if you try to use it
17:45:06 <ais523> but you can look at it to see if it's a genuine return value or a lazy exception
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17:45:39 <ehird> I wonder what Perl 6 would look like if you chopped off the sigils and the semicolons.
17:45:55 <ais523> Perl 6 has both sigils and twigils, though
17:46:03 <ehird> Well, fuck them too, whatever they are
17:46:09 <ais523> with the result that it would be hideously ambiguous if you chopped the sigils off
17:46:15 <ais523> a twigil is sort of a sigil for a sigil
17:46:28 <pikhq> Vaguely close, though.
17:46:43 <ehird> Perl 6 is pretty shit
17:46:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: So how does a non-initialized variable declaration look like?
17:47:01 <ais523> as in, $var is a scalar variable, $.var is a scalar property of a class
17:47:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: <type> variable = void;
17:47:19 <ais523> ehird: Perl6 is just even further into the realms of perlness than perl5, I rather like it
17:47:55 <ehird> Perl 6: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/examples/life.pl
17:47:57 <ehird> Ploferl 6: http://pastie.org/467798.txt?key=i3fnmc5yygtz8yly0k1zq
17:49:23 <pikhq> I don't think it's all that Ploflike.
17:49:38 <pikhq> Though I'm sure it could be implemented in PSL.
17:49:46 <ehird> pikhq: It's not too far off
17:50:06 <ais523> that is insanely similar, of course
17:50:15 <ais523> except, I suspect various other bits of Perl6 wouldn't translate
17:50:30 <ehird> 17:50 pikhq: Vaguely similar.
17:50:30 <ehird> 17:50 ais523: that is insanely similar, of course
17:50:36 <ais523> that seems to have been using just the Perl5y bits
17:50:49 <ehird> that's because most of the perl 6 bits are useless
17:50:57 <ais523> what's Plof's OO like?
17:51:01 <ais523> what are its regexps like?
17:51:08 <ehird> Plof's OO is, uh, Javascript.
17:51:15 <ehird> Its regexps are PCRE.
17:51:20 <ehird> But you can only have them in the bnf declaration thing.
17:51:20 <ais523> so really rather different, then
17:51:26 <pikhq> Plof's OO is basically the Javascript method done better.
17:51:34 <ehird> Er, pikhq, it barely differs.
17:51:37 <ehird> Apart from removing constructors.
17:52:26 <pikhq> Also, there's PCRE bindings for Plof.
17:52:57 <ais523> does Plof have typed variables?
17:53:18 <pikhq> Erm. That's not done yet.
17:53:32 <pikhq> ais523, the type system consists of the object system.
17:53:46 <pikhq> Variables are untyped.
17:53:49 <ais523> my guess is that Plof will model a subset of Perl6
17:54:00 <ais523> actually, fwiw, /every language in existence/ will model a subset of Perl6
17:55:33 <pikhq> plofbnf { top = /flimble/ => plof { print("Flimble!\n") } }
17:56:02 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how is clang working?
17:56:09 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:56:18 <lifthrasiir> i was working on other optimization passes.
17:56:23 <ehird> ais523: no, perl 6 misses a lot of things
17:56:36 <ehird> lifthrasiir: i'm upset because i can't think of a way to improve on what you're doing :-)
17:57:16 <ais523> <perl6 spec in svn> my Cat|Dog Fish $mitsy = new Fish but { Bool.pick ?? .does Cat !! .does Dog };
17:57:32 <ehird> MORE SYNTAX! MOOOOOOOOAR SYNTAX!
17:57:37 <ehird> SYNTAX SOLVE EVERYTHING!
17:58:04 * pikhq can add that to Plof
17:58:17 <lifthrasiir> ehird: it only performs a basic optimization. it even didn't remove codes after infinite loop... :S
17:58:29 <lifthrasiir> i just implemented that and pushed to hg repo.
17:58:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> actually, fwiw, /every language in existence/ will model a subset of Perl6 <-- so true...
17:58:37 <ehird> lifthrasiir: it's the most anything does atm
17:58:57 <ehird> turning things into expressions, polynomials, for loops
17:59:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> <perl6 spec in svn> my Cat|Dog Fish $mitsy = new Fish but { Bool.pick ?? .does Cat !! .does Dog }; <-- what does it do...
17:59:45 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a variable that's both a fish and a (cat xor dog)
18:00:03 <ehird> you know. like in real life
18:00:17 <ehird> lifthrasiir: "I implement this interface" I think
18:00:21 <ais523> to be precise, it generates a Fish, then makes a copy of it with either catness or dogness applies, at random
18:00:37 <ais523> ehird: .does is an abbreviation for $_.does
18:00:46 <ais523> *catness or dogness apllied
18:00:48 <ehird> ais523: that's just awful
18:00:59 <ais523> ehird: we were discussing "true but false" earlier
18:01:05 <AnMaster> ais523, sorry, but this is *worse* than intercal
18:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's not
18:01:13 <ais523> which in Perl6, is a scalar value identical to true, apart from being false
18:01:16 <lifthrasiir> i thoroughly read perl 6 specs a year ago, but cannot think of it. heck.
18:01:17 <ehird> if you think that you don't know intercal :)
18:01:20 <AnMaster> ehird, this specific aspect of it at least.
18:01:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> which in Perl6, is a scalar value identical to true, apart from being false <-- err.. what
18:01:41 <ehird> you can probably implement comefrom in perl
18:01:45 <ehird> AnMaster: boolean value
18:01:50 <ehird> object True is true as a boolean
18:01:53 <ehird> object False is false as a boolean
18:01:55 <ehird> object 3 is true as a boolean
18:02:04 <ehird> (true but false) is an object identical to True, but it's false as a boolean
18:02:14 <ehird> yeah, it's just an edge-case
18:02:20 <iano> I added return stack access to my False variant
18:02:32 <ais523> AnMaster: makes a modified copy
18:02:36 <ehird> AnMaster: (3 but false) is an object identical to 3 but false as a boolean
18:02:46 <iano> for better stack access and custom control structures
18:02:47 <ais523> that's different in some way, to do with properties or roles or traits or whatever
18:02:48 <ehird> it makes perfect sense...
18:03:00 <ehird> iano: it may be TC
18:03:13 <ais523> it depends on what sort of access
18:03:14 <iano> ehird: exactly
18:03:23 <AnMaster> ehird, So 3 is an object representing 3, but booleans are not objects?
18:03:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you misunderstand me
18:03:40 <pikhq> In Plof: (var tmp = new(True);tmp.ifTrue = Bool.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = False.ifFalse;)
18:03:41 <ehird> what booleanity an object has is an aspect of it
18:03:52 <ehird> True is an object which has nothing other than booleanity-true
18:04:07 <ehird> So (true but false) is True but with booleanity-false
18:04:19 <pikhq> Takes a bit more work than that; no opOr, opAnd, or opNot.
18:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what about primitive datatypes. Do they exist, or is everything an object.
18:04:23 <ehird> this is rather useless, ofc
18:04:29 <ais523> atm, I'm trying to work out what (true but false) stringifies as
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i think everything's an object, apart from the array/scalar/hash distinction; ask ai
18:04:49 <ais523> it depends on whether true has its stringification as "true" bundled with it, or whether it's calculated automatically from its truth
18:05:07 <ais523> ehird: actually, in Perl6 everything can be treated as an object or as a nonobject
18:05:07 <ehird> LOL, Jeff Atwood uses a password in the dictionary
18:05:11 <ehird> His idiocy is unbounded
18:05:29 <ais523> to the extent that it's rather difficult to tell if anything is boxed or not at any given moment
18:06:13 <ehird> Jeff Atwood is a retarded microsoft drone who has a shitty blog where he is a moron extraordinaire.
18:06:18 <ais523> isn't Jeff Atwood that Microsoft fan who spends all his time trying to be famous?
18:06:19 <ehird> He owns stack overflow with Joel Spolsky.
18:06:41 <ehird> Joel Spolsky's an idiot but he's said some clever things in his time... Jeff Atwood, uh, not so much.
18:06:49 <pikhq> In Plof: (var tmp = new(True);tmp.ifTrue = Bool.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = False.ifFalse;tmp.opAnd = False.opAnd;tmp opOr = False.opOr;tmp opNot = False.opNot;)
18:06:53 <Deewiant> He said it wasn't "really" a dictionary password
18:07:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah it was one of those non-dictionary dictionary passwords
18:07:06 -!- tombom has joined.
18:07:11 <ehird> I like how he calls people dummies in the same sentence
18:07:18 <ehird> Real smart there today Atwood
18:07:25 <pikhq> Or, to make that an operator:
18:07:37 <ais523> beh, Perl6 isn't in the Ubuntu repos
18:07:53 <ehird> ais523: err, rakudo IS the canonical perl6
18:07:59 <ehird> ais523: anyway, is Parrot?
18:08:13 <ais523> but I mean, Perl6 isn't finished yet
18:08:16 <ais523> but Rakudo exists today
18:08:16 <ehird> get parrot, then http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
18:08:24 <ehird> Perl6 is not an implementation
18:08:30 <ehird> Rakudo is the "perl.org" implementation of perl 6
18:08:36 <ehird> ie the sort-of-canonical one
18:08:43 <ehird> ais523: anyway, get parrot then http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
18:08:45 <ais523> there can't be an implementation of Perl6 yet, because it isn't finished; Rakudo presumably implements the work-in-progress spec
18:09:03 <ehird> ais523: don't get parrot
18:09:04 <ehird> it does it for you
18:09:16 <ehird> git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git && cd rakudo && perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot && make
18:11:08 <ehird> ais523: I would like to point out that Perl 6's other name is PEYHM.
18:11:32 <ais523> no results for that either
18:11:48 <ehird> ais523: I'm not being too serious: http://www.pugscode.org/images/pugs.small.png
18:11:57 <ehird> It's more like Pugs' other name for PErl 6, though.
18:12:24 <ais523> aww, Perl6 no longer allows ' as a namespace separator
18:12:28 <pikhq> opBut = (x, y as Bool) {var tmp = new(x) : Bool;tmp.ifTrue = y.ifTrue;tmp.ifFalse = y.ifFalse;tmp.opAnd = y.opAnd;tmp.opOr = y.opOr;tmp opNot = y.opNot;}
18:12:29 <ais523> admittedly, that's been deprecated for ages
18:12:32 <pikhq> plofbnf { plof_unopr => plof_but; plof_but = plof_but "but"w plof_but_next => plof {opBut($0, $1)}; plof_but = plof_but_next => plof { $0 };}
18:12:41 <pikhq> And yes, I am completely mad.
18:12:56 <ehird> ais523: done that git/cd/perl/make dance to get rakudo?
18:12:58 <ehird> it handles everything for you
18:13:02 <ais523> ehird: yes, it's running atm
18:13:08 <ais523> I checked the commands and the website first, thuogh
18:13:48 <ehird> --gen-parrot is code for "launch nuclear weapons", obviously
18:15:27 <ehird> "its performance is excellent (in terms of both compilation speed and - literally - execution speed)"
18:16:08 * ehird looks at Rakudo building and decides to look away because it's probably awful and bloated and meta
18:16:10 <ais523> I think we're referencing the same website
18:16:25 * pikhq is pleased at having implemented the but operator in Plof)
18:16:36 <ais523> and the build's mostly full of cc and parrot invocations
18:16:45 <ais523> pikhq: but it doesn't do all of what Perl6's but does
18:17:07 <ehird> 18:16 ais523: I think we're referencing the same website ← ofc
18:17:17 <pikhq> That takes more than two lines of silly stuff hashed out in an IRC buffer.
18:17:20 <ais523> can you make it apply roles to classes?
18:17:41 <ais523> that's probably its major use
18:17:47 <pikhq> No, that takes a more sophisticated opBut.
18:17:48 <ehird> Leeeeeeeeet's gooooooooooo!
18:17:58 <ais523> although I look forward to testing things like "4 but Callable
18:18:00 <pikhq> The syntax definition there is just fine, though.
18:18:13 <ehird> Could not find non-existent sub false
18:18:19 <ehird> there is no "false"
18:18:31 <ehird> The but operator can only be used with a role or enum value on the right hand side
18:18:33 <ais523> > say (true but false)
18:18:34 <ais523> Could not find non-existent sub false
18:18:36 <ais523> > say (True but False)
18:18:37 <ais523> The but operator can only be used with a role or enum value on the right hand side
18:18:39 <ais523> > say (True but false)
18:18:40 <ais523> Null PMC access in isa()
18:18:49 <ehird> > say (4 but Callable)
18:18:54 <ehird> (4 but Callable)()?
18:19:01 <ehird> ais523: invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'
18:19:11 <ehird> this thing is slow
18:19:18 <ehird> i can feel the delay from typing to error
18:19:44 <ais523> rakudo feels rather buggy to me
18:19:51 <ais523> compared to the spec, at least
18:20:32 <ehird> will try the rakudo tests and the perl6 tests from pugs
18:21:36 <ehird> All tests successful.
18:21:36 <ehird> Files=29, Tests=236, 56 wallclock secs ( 0.16 usr 0.12 sys + 47.38 cusr 3.89 csys = 51.55 CPU)
18:21:51 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Downloads/rakudo/parrot/parrot perl6.pbc --target=pir --output=Test.pir Test.pm
18:22:41 <ehird> "This is one of our favourites. The value of NULL on a DeathStation 9000 varies from one compile to the next. It might be all-bits-zero and it might not."
18:22:52 <ehird> "So this code: memset(&weapon, 0, sizeof weapon); wasn't quite as robust as it might have been"
18:22:56 <ehird> 0 as a pointer is always NULL
18:23:00 <ehird> that's correct code
18:23:03 <ehird> THE DEATHSTATION IS WRONG!
18:23:10 <ais523> the second argument of memset isn't a pointer
18:23:19 <ais523> 0 as a char != 0 as a pointer, necessarily
18:24:17 <ehird> ais523: all these spectests are succeeding atm
18:24:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: hi
18:24:34 <ais523> ehird: I doubt they're in sync with the actual spec, though
18:24:45 <ehird> ais523: they're reasonably in sync.
18:24:50 <ehird> the spec doesn't change much
18:24:51 <ehird> mostly it's hot air
18:26:39 <ais523> heh, Perl6 doesn't just have unary plus, it also has unary concatenate
18:28:38 <lifthrasiir> http://pastie.org/467828 esotope-bfc is, i think, getting much slower over the revisions... :S
18:28:58 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how does it do lostkng?
18:29:05 <ais523> Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per"
18:29:27 <ais523> the error message strongly implies I passed correct UTF-8 to it
18:29:36 <lifthrasiir> ehird: given link has a table of time taken to compile lostkng.
18:29:40 <ehird> ais523: tell it you're using utf-8, then
18:29:45 <ehird> lifthrasiir: but what's the output
18:29:47 <ais523> maybe it's trying to interpret my utf8 as latin-1, for some reason
18:30:05 <ehird> lifthrasiir: perhaps!
18:30:07 <ehird> eh, just like to esotope
18:30:35 <ais523> $ perl6 --encoding=utf8
18:30:38 <ais523> Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per"
18:30:39 <ehird> link to esotope anyway lifthrasiir :-P
18:30:55 <ehird> ais523: i highly doubt it doesn't support that syntax; it's something else
18:31:05 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/raw-file/tip/esotope-bfc.py
18:31:46 <ais523> $ LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 perl6 --encoding=utf8
18:31:49 <ais523> Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\x{c2}\x{ab}b\x{c2}\x{bb}).per"
18:31:50 <lifthrasiir> when it once became stable i'll release it to avoid pasting that link everyday. :p
18:32:01 <ais523> if Rakudo has some way to indicate an encoding, it isn't an obvious one
18:32:28 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ImportError: cannot import name namedtuple
18:32:36 <ais523> ehird: "Running "make spectest" will import relevant portions of the official Perl 6 test suite from the Pugs repository (http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/) and run all of the tests that are currently known to pass."
18:32:46 <ais523> so it only tests the bit they've implemented against the spec
18:32:49 <ais523> no wonder it was passing
18:32:59 <ehird> shrug, rakudo is quite complete
18:33:04 <ehird> you seem to think it's a lot worse than it i
18:33:11 <lifthrasiir> ehird: sorry, namedtuple is not in use in current revision. remove "from collections import namedtuple" line from the code.
18:33:24 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl6 work-in-progress bytecode compiler
18:33:39 <ehird> how come you're the only person who gets the privilege to ask questions that you could easily find out, nobody else?
18:34:20 -!- iano has quit.
18:34:34 <ehird> % python esotope-bfc.py LostKng.b > LostKng.b.c
18:34:38 <ehird> lifthrasiir: this is taking >11s...
18:35:21 <ais523> > my Int $x = (fail "testing");
18:35:24 <ais523> Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in
18:35:25 <ais523> I'm finding bugs everywhere
18:35:28 <ais523> and yes, that is the entire error message
18:35:36 <ehird> ais523: Are you sure you know the spec more than they do?
18:35:40 <ehird> I bet your code is invalid
18:35:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> how come you're the only person who gets the privilege to ask questions that you could easily find out, nobody else <-- What are you talking about.
18:35:52 <ehird> lifthrasiir: doesn't seem to do much more than bf2c.hs on lostkng
18:35:58 <ais523> ehird: I have the spec open atm...
18:36:06 <ehird> ais523: report the bugs then
18:36:15 <ehird> lifthrasiir: http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/compilers/bf2c.hs
18:36:17 <ais523> it's possible that the REPL runs each line in a separate scope
18:36:23 <ehird> it says that on the page
18:36:29 <ehird> the get rakudo page
18:36:34 <ehird> each line is a separate compilation unit
18:36:37 <ehird> so subs persist, but not vars
18:36:44 <ehird> lifthrasiir: until recently the best compiler
18:36:53 <ehird> lifthrasiir: does move-shifting, variable elimination, polynomialization...
18:37:00 <ehird> BF optimization is a field in itself...
18:37:28 <ais523> > {my Int $x = (fail "testing"); say $x+1;}
18:37:38 <ais523> presumably, attempting to output an unthrown exception doesn't throw it
18:38:14 <ais523> well, yes, but they're meant to throw themselves whenever you try to do something with them that's obviously intended not to be done with an exception
18:38:59 <ehird> lifthrasiir: does your compiler work on [>]?
18:39:33 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what, it fails on valid code?
18:39:35 <lifthrasiir> i'm thinking about how to optimize such code.
18:39:42 <ehird> i just mean does it work :-P
18:39:46 <ehird> lifthrasiir: also, [>] is pretty easy
18:40:11 <lifthrasiir> of course it does work on every valid code, just not get optimized
18:40:14 <ehird> lifthrasiir: [>] is mptr = memchr(mptr, 0, (size ofmemptr))
18:40:24 <lifthrasiir> and you're right, but how about [>>] or variants?
18:40:24 <ehird> which is mptr-mem, I think
18:40:47 <lifthrasiir> i think combined array analysis is needed for complete optimization.
18:40:56 <ehird> and that sounds hard :-)
18:41:37 <lifthrasiir> for example the memory cells 7+2*k is actually one array, and optimized to be stored as like etc.
18:42:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> lifthrasiir: [>] is mptr = memchr(mptr, 0, (size ofmemptr))
18:42:11 <AnMaster> yes, I said that yesterday iirc
18:42:35 <ehird> lifthrasiir: yeah, that'd make it turn into "real" c
18:42:40 <ehird> if you analyzed data structures
18:42:44 <ehird> to get variables, arrays, etc out of it
18:42:48 <tombom> what'#s the best compil;er nowtrhen
18:42:55 <ehird> tombom: esotope-bfc
18:43:15 <ehird> tombom: & compiling the generated c with clang/llvm
18:43:32 <lifthrasiir> i'm not sure, but it does certain degree of optimization
18:43:40 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you should optimize the 1,X,1,X,1,X,0 array format
18:43:57 <ehird> AnMaster: console(v)
18:44:11 <GregorR> Ah yes, computer science has entirely destroyed the previous meaning of the word console :P
18:44:56 <GregorR> (OK, I guess consoles in the noun sense predate computers by a bit)
18:45:55 <lifthrasiir> ehird: btw, pastie says "Your paste cannot be larger than 100 kb. Sorry." so is this a new goal? :p
18:45:56 <Deewiant> Where 'a bit' = a few centuries, yese
18:45:57 <ais523> hah, IBM's offering companies $8000 for each Sparc processor they replace with a Power processor
18:45:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is the name for those triangular things you put under shelves to mount them on the wall
18:46:16 <AnMaster> but I don't remember if it is console on English as well
18:46:20 <ehird> i forgot people still use non-x86s in non-embedded environment
18:46:32 <GregorR> I'm not sure what you're referring to.
18:46:47 <ais523> AnMaster: they're normally called shelf brackets in English
18:46:55 <GregorR> It might be that Swedish furniture technology is advanced to the point that you have words for things we don't even have.
18:46:59 <ais523> not that I often need to call them anything
18:47:32 <AnMaster> ais523, nor do I. I don't think I have any shelves mounted that way in the house...
18:47:48 <ais523> I do, but have never felt a need to name the things holding the shelf up
18:49:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well, if you are going to buy some it might be useful to know
18:50:13 <ais523> ah, first google result for "shelf brackets": http://www.wickes.co.uk/Shelf-Brackets/Metal-Brackets/icat/tsmetalbrack
18:50:16 <ehird> GregorR: yeah ikea is like the LHC
18:51:32 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Was thinking of larger ones in wood though. Usually triangular. Sometimes ornamented(sp?)
18:51:45 <ais523> they're all shelf brackets either way, though
18:51:51 <ais523> it seems wickes only make the metal ones
18:53:13 <ehird> AnMaster: remember when I showed you a cooler which you thought was mad because it was big and heavy and would fall?
18:53:15 <ehird> AnMaster: cpu cooler
18:53:22 <ehird> AnMaster: here's the cooler I'm currently planning on using: http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/prolima-megahalems/12.jpg
18:53:35 <ehird> women and children, shield your eyes
18:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like it would put quite a large load on the mobo
18:54:12 <AnMaster> especially if the mobo is mounted vertically
18:54:14 <GregorR> "<ehird> women and children, shield your eyes" // must just be a giant penis you attach to your CPU
18:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the attaching system is pretty solid
18:54:58 <ehird> AnMaster: "A backplate is placed beneath the CPU socket and bolts with threads on both sides are secured to it." "Two aluminum side bars are placed over the bolts and nuts are used to tighten them. There are a second set of holes on these bars for use with the LGA1366 backplate." "The heatsink is then placed on top of the CPU and a crossbar is fitted above the mounting plate. Large spring-loaded bolts are then screwed into the side bars. This is the only
18:55:00 <ehird> step that requires any tools — the rest is done by hand."
18:55:05 <AnMaster> ... Ok ... I never understood what this "That's what she said" was about.
18:55:17 <AnMaster> is it just random xkcd reference, or?
18:55:18 <ais523> > my $foo = "Bar"; my $Bar=4; say $::("MY::$foo");
18:55:20 <ais523> say requires an argument at line 1, near " $::(\"MY::"
18:55:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a sexual innuendo
18:55:27 <ais523> ehird: I just copied that example from the spec
18:55:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: It's meant to suggest that something is sexual innuendo when it really isn't.
18:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster: "That's so small." "That's what SHE said [in bed, referring to your penis]." ← example
18:56:00 <GregorR> AnMaster: Since I said the cooler must look like a giant penis, I decided that "<ehird> AnMaster: the attaching system is pretty solid" must be innuendo.
18:56:08 <ais523> I wonder if anyone's ever tried that riposte to a woman?
18:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, backplate hm.. Hope it isn't a conductive one.
18:56:20 <ehird> AnMaster: those megahalems are 820g with the crossbar, bolts and fan clips, apparently
18:56:26 <ehird> 790g for just the heatsink
18:56:41 <ais523> that's in terms of weight, presumably
18:57:22 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it upper case G for acceleration iirc
18:57:25 <ais523> I thought so, I wasn't quite sure there wasn't a second meaning though
18:58:11 <ais523> it might be reasonable propulsion caused by a nuclear explosion
18:58:17 <ehird> hmm, apparently with one fan on the megahalems running at only 800 RPM, with full load of a top of the range core 2 quad (NOT i7), it runs at 62c
18:58:31 <ehird> so probably 65-70c for an i7 at full load
18:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anything involving a (former) human being
18:58:40 <ais523> is megahalem a trade name, or does it have a technical meaning?
18:58:44 <ehird> question is if you can drop the fan
18:59:01 <ehird> AnMaster: "Megahalems" is the brand of those giant heatsinks for the Core i7s, which use the Nehalem architechture
18:59:24 <ais523> AnMaster: Did you mean: Did you mean: ais523:
19:00:08 <ehird> the megahalems are a lot less hot in silentpcreview's review
19:00:16 <AnMaster> ais523, no. Shouldn't there be a dot at the end
19:00:28 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird said "AnMaster:"
19:00:37 <ais523> which is what you were trying to correct in the first place
19:00:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I perform word splitting on :
19:00:39 <ehird> so I'm assuming that dropping the fan would be easy
19:00:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I give context in corrections
19:00:56 <ehird> you'd get 30-40C or so on average and higher on load
19:01:06 <ais523> just like diff -u >> diff for patching programs
19:01:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ok. I should have done /<AnMaster> Did/s/: /: $/
19:02:01 <ais523> replace end-of-string with start-of-string?
19:02:05 <ais523> does that even make sense?
19:02:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, ok. I should have done /<AnMaster> Did/s/: /: $/
19:02:27 <ehird> ugh, I can't believe I'm actually considering applying my own gigantic heatsink
19:02:28 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, ok. I should have done /<AnMaster> Did/s/: /: ^/
19:02:36 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Did you mean: ais523
19:02:40 <ais523> I don't get why you want a ^ in the replacement anyway
19:02:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Did you mean: ^ais523
19:02:50 <ais523> yes, but surely ehird didn't mean "^ais523"
19:03:06 <ais523> oh, you're trying to anchor the context to the start of the line/
19:03:12 <ais523> lines start with : not ^ on IRC
19:03:12 <ehird> "In keeping with the spirit of the [H] we are once again doing hardware heat measurment. This means drilling a very small path into an expensive CPU to place our thermocouple in. This is by far the best way to test coolers and the only way here at the [H]." Holy shit, they're insane
19:03:19 <ehird> http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIzMjU1MjM1MlEyZ1NFQzg5ckJfMV81X2wuanBn
19:03:21 <ais523> so s/^/:/ in your most recent metacorrection
19:03:26 <ehird> They cut open a cpu and put a wire into it
19:03:34 <AnMaster> ais523, not the way the client displays it
19:03:43 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Did you mean: :ais523
19:03:45 <ais523> AnMaster: for client display, you want >
19:03:57 <ais523> unless your client displays IRC messages as regexps?
19:05:46 <ais523> well, I was deliberately trying to make it absurd
19:09:39 <ehird> "The fan completely blocks any RAM from being installed in the first slot and even the second slot blocks the retention clip from properly holding the fan. "
19:09:46 <ehird> Hope my mobo's big enough to avoid THAT.
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19:16:14 <ehird> lifthrasiir: test with mandelbrot.b
19:16:20 <ehird> lostkng is big but not intensive
19:16:38 <lifthrasiir> is that http://www.menuetos.net/mandel.txt ?
19:16:54 <ehird> lifthrasiir: http://swapped.cc/bf/
19:17:00 <ehird> http://swapped.cc/bf/files/mandelbrot.b
19:17:21 <ehird> also, ew, menuetos :-P
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19:27:20 <ais523> Scope not found for PAST::Var '$x' in
19:28:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I forwarded you an e-mail earlier today, FWIW.
19:30:02 <AnMaster> " Your interpretation would be considered undefined at best. The specs say that the child should execute before the parent next executes but does not specify immediately before, only that it must execute an instruction before the parent executes its next instruction. In fact it does not even state whether the child ip needs to execute in the same tick as the t command that created it, or execute it
19:30:02 <AnMaster> for the first time in the next tick. Both CCBI and Rc/Funge-98 execute it the next tick, but again, which tick it executes in is undefined and only really has importance when using TRDS. "
19:30:34 <AnMaster> if we are going to go undef like that almost half of the GOOD in mycology will turn into UNDEF
19:31:14 <ais523> I'm pretty certain that process creation taking more than one tick would be a DS9K implementation of Befunge-98
19:31:44 <ais523> oh, what is it about then?
19:32:08 <ehird> AnMaster: who wrote that?
19:32:17 <ais523> almost cetainly mike riley
19:32:22 <AnMaster> ehird, do you agree with it or not
19:32:23 <ais523> although there isn't any direct evidence for that
19:32:25 <ais523> just an implication from contetx
19:32:33 <ehird> he writes better not on IRC then
19:32:40 <Deewiant> Well, the original message was that if you have, say IPs [ 1 2 3 ], then if 2 forks to create 4 you should get [ 1 2 4 3 ] and not [ 1 2 3 4 ]
19:32:47 <ehird> maybe his irc client inserts the ,,,, ... and ehhehehehehs
19:33:04 <ehird> Deewiant: yep, that's right
19:33:18 <ehird> yes but it's the right option :-)
19:33:20 * AnMaster tries to figure out DS9K interpretations for the fingerprint acryonyms
19:33:47 <ehird> FPSP: Fire-Powered Shattering Pulser
19:33:58 <Deewiant> And Mike's "it does not even state" is about whether, when the child IP is created, it executes for the first time in that same tick or the next one
19:34:01 <ehird> but with more fire and explosion
19:34:52 <ehird> MVRS: Multiverse tools, including D: destroys the current universe.
19:35:55 <ehird> REXP: Rectal Excavation eXtra Powertools
19:36:04 <ehird> Used in hospitals to control a rectal excavation machine.
19:36:28 <ehird> "SOCK": Securely Operated Checkless K-Bolts
19:36:38 <ehird> SUBR: Submarine control system.
19:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: a weapon of some sort; it sounds like a long, thin bolt that's highly explosive or somethin
19:37:02 <ais523> AnMaster: I think they're explosive bolts used to hold parts of rockets together
19:37:03 <ehird> it doesn't actually exist, but that's what it sounds like
19:37:06 <ehird> ais523: what, really?
19:37:10 <ehird> i just invented them!
19:37:10 <ais523> which are blown up to separate the stages
19:37:16 <ais523> ehird: they may be called something else
19:37:23 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=K-bolt&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
19:37:26 <ehird> yeah, I just invented them ;-)
19:37:37 <ehird> TRDS: controls the *real* TARDIS.
19:37:54 <ais523> ehird: wow, that was really weird
19:37:55 <ehird> UNIX: Castration utilities.
19:37:59 <ais523> I followed your link, and only got one advert
19:38:04 <ais523> then I removed the client=safari, and got lots
19:38:13 <AnMaster> ehird, err. That isn't a backronym
19:38:19 <ehird> if i s/safari/firefox/ i get more
19:38:24 <ehird> i get 2 with safari
19:38:26 <ais523> with client=epiphany, I get 2
19:38:38 <ehird> AnMaster: How is that fail?
19:38:40 <ais523> and client=lynx gives 6
19:38:45 <ehird> I know trds means tardis.
19:38:45 <ais523> I tried it before you suggested that
19:39:35 <ais523> and ie7 shows none at all
19:39:44 <ais523> wait, or 1 on the refresh
19:39:49 <ais523> I suspect it's just giving random numbers of ads
19:40:03 <ais523> nope, ie7 never gives more than one ad
19:40:28 <ais523> and ie8 is not giving more than one now either, even after about 8 refreshes
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19:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523 or is it statistical significant?
19:43:49 <ais523> it probably depends on other things like the IP
19:44:02 <ais523> I mean, Google have a user-agent, why would they care about the useragent specified in the address bar?
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19:44:40 <AnMaster> why is the user-agent even in the address bar
19:47:14 <ehird> AnMaster: done with JS I think
19:47:17 <ehird> to avoid server side load
19:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, err. How does it have to parse less that way
19:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't
19:48:14 <ehird> AnMaster: but they're already parsing the query string
19:48:21 <ehird> they're probably just throwing away the user-agent header
19:48:25 <ehird> and besides, it's easier to read
19:48:34 <ehird> Internet Explorer Mozilla AWESOMEFEST (aaa;;:43847 NETSCAPE)
19:48:45 <ehird> AnMaster: that's part of it
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19:50:02 <ehird> AnMaster: i've seen worse; a particular idiot thought that including the highest Acid standards test they pass would be best... even though the acid tests are 100% edge cases, and are DELIBERATELY INVALID to test browsers' handling of invalid pages
19:50:10 <ehird> as in, just having the UA be "Acid 2" or "Acid 3"
19:50:27 <ehird> the acid tests aren't even official w3c!
19:50:40 <AnMaster> ehird, err acid 1 doesn't have any invalid bits iirc
19:51:01 <ehird> AnMaster: barely anything doesn't pass acid 2 these days
19:51:04 <ehird> but my point stands
19:51:22 <Deewiant> My Firefox (3.5b4) doesn't pass Acid2
19:51:33 <Deewiant> I haven't tried in safe mode, though, so it could be an extension
19:51:47 <AnMaster> I guess it might be a beta bug
19:51:56 <ehird> acid tests don't matter anywhere
19:51:59 <ais523> Deewiant: Acid2, or Acid3?
19:52:02 <ehird> a load of talk and nothing useful or worthwhile
19:52:05 <Deewiant> The nose is a pixel or so too big and the chin is one block too tall
19:52:19 <Deewiant> Even the latest alphas don't pass Acid3.
19:53:08 <Deewiant> With extensions on, my browser doesn't pass Acid1.
19:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have odd extensions then
19:53:44 <Deewiant> I refuse to allow pages to set the font size of monospaced fonts.
19:54:19 <Deewiant> Because they are invariably either way too small or way too big, because they assume a different font than I specify.
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20:00:02 <pikhq> I refuse to allow pages to set the font.
20:00:22 <pikhq> You've got a choice between sans serif, serif, and monospace.
20:00:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Someone using that gets shot.
20:01:20 <ehird> 20:00 pikhq: I refuse to allow pages to set the font. ← My designer sense is tingling, and it wants to throttle you.
20:01:35 <ehird> Please assume a relaxed position so that it may commence.
20:02:05 <Deewiant> I used to have that on but it broke too many pages
20:02:14 <ais523> IMO, designers should design pages so that with any reasonable sane settings for the user, it'll display as the user wants
20:02:59 <Deewiant> IMO designers shouldn't touch the 'font-foo' CSS settings at all.
20:02:59 <ehird> OTOH, a font with different metrics fucks up the whole vertical/horizontal rhythm entirly.
20:03:21 <ehird> Which is not a problem unless you actually, y'know, design.
20:03:29 <ehird> When it all breaks down.
20:03:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Agreed wholeheartedly.
20:03:44 <ehird> Irrelevant in this case, however.
20:03:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't assume the user will have any of the fonts
20:03:52 <ehird> AnMaster: That's why you specify fallbacks.
20:04:03 <AnMaster> you can only assume there is some sans-serif, some serif, some monospace
20:04:18 <ehird> you can't assume anything
20:04:26 <pikhq> ehird: I've done this because far, *far* too many 'designers' misuse it.
20:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. But lynx doesn't support CSS anyway :P
20:04:44 <ehird> pikhq: They ruin it for everyone else :P
20:04:48 <AnMaster> so all you can assume is "a font"
20:04:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: elinks supports CSS. ;)
20:05:52 <pikhq> ehird: What I'd like is a way to refuse allowing sites to set the font, with a whitelist for sites that aren't really retarded with font selection.
20:06:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, make an extension.. called nofont
20:07:21 <pikhq> Very damned tempting.
20:07:41 <pikhq> Opposite hands. ;)
20:09:15 <Deewiant> Since you'd have to whitelist the site anyway to check whether it's retarded or not :-P
20:09:58 -!- olsner has joined.
20:11:53 <fizzie> Tempt-ping; it sends seductive ICMP messages.
20:13:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not have a setting for "default allow/disallow"
20:17:27 <Deewiant> Because that complicates things
20:17:33 <Deewiant> You have to keep track of both a blacklist and a whitelist
20:17:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that allows exceptions to0o
20:17:44 <Deewiant> Unless you just want to wipe it or invert its meaning whenever the setting is changed :-P
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20:26:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just add the complement to the list when the option is changed ;P
20:40:01 <oerjan> !underload (S):(u)(:*)(:*)::**^^(re :-P)**~^
20:40:01 <EgoBot> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure :-P
20:40:20 <ais523> heh, a link someone pasted on Slashdot to try to explain the Daily Mail to Americans: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Adailymail.co.uk+%22ministers+are+considering%22
20:40:49 <ais523> oerjan: I'm sure that program could be simplified
20:41:00 <ais523> actually, that must have been deliberately obfuscated
20:41:05 <ais523> or you would have used more than one S
20:41:47 <oerjan> once i realized (S)S could be rewritten, the rest was irresistible
20:42:35 <oerjan> oh of course (:*)(:*) = (:*):
20:42:47 <ais523> and :::** will boggle people somewhat
20:44:03 <pikhq> !underload (S):(u)(:*):::**^^(re...)**~^
20:44:04 <EgoBot> Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure...
20:44:42 <oerjan> hm in fact that's a nice compression of 256
20:45:04 <ais523> (:*):::**^ is the compression
20:45:14 <ais523> the second ^ is using the 256 to duplicate the u
20:45:20 <pikhq> !underload (:*):::**^
20:45:44 <pikhq> Church numerals...
20:45:52 <pikhq> Make my head hurt.
20:46:04 <ais523> I like Church numerals
20:46:25 <AnMaster> I think we need yet another odd number system
20:46:25 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
20:46:34 <AnMaster> I liked that idea I had some days ago
20:46:50 <AnMaster> that the interpreter selected the minimal possible base to interpret the number in
20:46:54 <pikhq> ais523: They're brilliant, they just screw with my head.
20:46:58 <AnMaster> so 30 was in base 4, 45 was in base 6
20:47:04 <oerjan> !underload (X):*:*:*(~S:^):^
20:47:04 <EgoBot> XXXXXXXXError: Stack underflow in ~
20:47:15 <fungot> XXXXXXXX ...out of stack!
20:47:35 <ais523> they seem to be disagreeing about what in particular underflowed
20:47:41 <ais523> EgoBot and thutubot, that is
20:47:48 <ais523> AnMaster: "underflow", not "overflow"
20:48:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i just wanted to check if it would print anything before the error
20:48:28 <oerjan> so you can use that for printing the whole stack like in the others
20:48:37 <AnMaster> ais523, where should it really have underflown
20:49:11 <ais523> if a ~ succeeds, the subsequent S can't possibly underflow
20:49:16 <ais523> because there must be at least two stack elements
20:49:41 <ais523> or to be more precise, a bug in its error-handling
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20:51:13 <ais523> oh, it didn't say ...' out of stack
20:52:42 <fizzie> fungot doesn't say what underflows.
20:52:42 <fungot> fizzie: " fnord?" she inquired. so, as i thought good, ' as many as five nights fnord warmth, you know.'
20:52:53 <fizzie> It's just a generic "out of stack" message.
20:52:57 <ais523> I suspect it has some sort of underflow token that's being swapped onto the stack
20:53:03 <ais523> and you get an underflow error when you try to use it
20:53:13 <ais523> I didn't do that deliberately, but thutubot's complicated enough that I might have done it by mistake
20:55:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> I suspect it has some sort of underflow token that's being swapped onto the stack
20:55:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> and you get an underflow error when you try to use it
20:55:38 <oerjan> seems only ~ gets fooled, and only for the second element
20:55:42 <ais523> yes, but that's not the same as knowing how it works
20:56:04 <AnMaster> ais523, so how did you detect underflow then
20:56:08 <oerjan> so probably ~ just checks for one argument
20:56:50 <ais523> AnMaster: if the program underflows, none of the regexps match, so it falls out of the main loop unexpectedly
20:56:55 <oerjan> ah * has the same bug :D
20:57:10 <AnMaster> what does * do then. I don't remember
20:58:32 <oerjan> those are the only two-argument commands
20:59:44 <oerjan> interesting that * doesn't mess up more though, since it actually combines the two args rather than just swapping them
21:01:13 <ais523> my current guess is that * and ~ both do the same thing as ! if there's only one element on the stack
21:01:23 <ais523> which would be weird, but not completely implausible
21:01:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what does ! do now again...
21:03:12 <oerjan> +ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)SS
21:03:53 <AnMaster> looks like it dropped certainly :P
21:04:11 <oerjan> yeah the accident was in the printing part
21:04:15 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any underload in underload implementation
21:04:54 <oerjan> +ul ((Underload in Underload)S)^
21:04:55 <AnMaster> ^ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)SS
21:05:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that is cheating... I meant a non-eval implementation
21:05:16 <oerjan> SS should have been *S
21:05:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: underload has no input
21:05:41 <AnMaster> but surely you could embed the input in some way
21:05:44 <AnMaster> ^ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S
21:05:48 <AnMaster> +ul (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S
21:05:58 <AnMaster> !underload (!):( drops)~^( accidentally)*S
21:06:08 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an Underload interp in BF, and a BF-minus-input to Underload compiler
21:06:13 <ais523> you could trivially combine the two
21:06:32 <oerjan> you could code it in binary with : and ^, like i did with the rule 110 automaton
21:06:53 <AnMaster> but you couldn't do it as a base64 encoded string.
21:07:05 <AnMaster> Since strings in underload are more like atoms
21:07:28 <oerjan> yep, no way of decoding except by running
21:07:52 <ais523> Underlambda takes that further, incidentally, there's no way to do anything with information in Tier 1 except by running it
21:08:08 <ais523> if you want to get at the details of the code, you load a library that puts metadata into things
21:08:11 <AnMaster> that is irritating. Makes it require more thought to be sure if it is TC or not.
21:08:12 <ais523> it's a lot cleaner that way
21:08:29 <oerjan> um wait was it : and ^ i used or was that the other option i gave up
21:08:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's pretty easy to compile SKI into Underload
21:09:00 <ais523> Underlambda just uses the function from stacks to stacks as its basic data type
21:09:06 <ais523> so it's very purely concatenative
21:09:12 <ais523> whereas Underload is slightly dirtier due to S
21:09:27 <ais523> (in Underlambda, S serialises a function, but the form of the serialisation is implementation-defined)
21:09:31 <oerjan> yeah it was : and ^, the other was : and a i think
21:09:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I could compile befunge into underload easily if there is no input...
21:10:09 <ais523> I would have thought it was impossible due to ?
21:10:14 <AnMaster> OUTPUT="$(./cfunge $1)"; echo "($OUTPUT)S"
21:10:16 <ais523> although I suppose you could stick a PRNG in there somehow
21:10:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: those are as far as i can tell the only pairs of commands whose sequences can be cleanly decoded
21:10:28 <ais523> also, that fails on infinite loops
21:10:36 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But it was a joke
21:10:43 <ais523> it was an /incorrect/ joke, though
21:10:55 <ais523> besides, what if there are parens in Befunge's output?
21:10:59 <ais523> you didn't even escape properly
21:11:28 <AnMaster> it was a "initial import" rather
21:11:59 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42283-135.html
21:12:39 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-440.htm
21:15:17 <oerjan> !underload (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^
21:15:30 <oerjan> still no infloop printing
21:15:38 <oerjan> +ul (u)(~:S( )S:*~:^):^
21:15:39 <thutubot> u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output!
21:16:05 <fungot> u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output!
21:16:11 <thutubot> u uu uuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ...too much output!
21:16:15 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
21:16:17 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
21:16:42 <AnMaster> I mean, how can you track that
21:17:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's the rule 110 automaton
21:17:20 <AnMaster> multiline would make it easier
21:17:34 <oerjan> yes but the irc bots don't allow that
21:18:06 <oerjan> (it would require giving a newline in the input, for one thing)
21:18:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, EgoBot can load from urls
21:18:35 <AnMaster> fungot can't yet. it was planned however
21:18:35 <fungot> AnMaster: " a far fnord one than mine, said arthur. " why, they're only a pack of cards!"
21:18:42 <oerjan> it shows fine in irssi though, due to line wrapping
21:18:56 <ais523> fungot: Arthur in Wonderland!
21:18:56 <fungot> ais523: " but he needn't run over me!" or to any loud cry, such as " fnord me!" i said to myself " that's very curious!" she cried. ' yet i must sell my sunday fnord the fnord almost unnatural fnord which arthur met the woman who had won his heart, and outgrabe in despair, took to pointing out places for himself, and feebly asked " is that great yellow fnord fairyland?"
21:19:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
21:19:11 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, ask the bot
21:19:15 <fizzie> "Any loud cry, such as 'fnord me!'."
21:19:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: well for EgoBot only the first line would be on channel, too
21:19:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:19:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can use it outside the printed bits
21:20:14 <oerjan> i considered making a "quine" version but there is an enormous amount of extra noise
21:20:50 <oerjan> the rule 110 automaton
21:21:15 <oerjan> but something that would do the automaton between two bots
21:21:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you fit that in one line
21:21:40 <oerjan> actually i think they don't allow enough output for it
21:22:03 <fizzie> You can do length-unlimited fungot programs if you want to do a bit of scripting which uses ^str add in a privmsg. I don't think those have a length limit. (You can also use that to make fungot run out of memory, so don't do it.)
21:22:04 <fungot> fizzie: how it happened. ' that fnord full of them. ' i'm sure mine only works one way,' and then its eyes looked fnord" and an " o."
21:22:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, err (!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*))) <-- seems repeated there. Can't you use : somehow to cut that down?
21:23:13 <AnMaster> surely it can be made shorter somehow
21:24:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's the encoding of the automaton rules
21:24:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, still, can't you make it shorter
21:27:31 <oerjan> maybe a bit of tweaking
21:27:55 <oerjan> ((^)*)(!(^)*) = ((^)*):(!)~*
21:28:36 <oerjan> a bit complicated for saving one char :D
21:30:07 <ais523> in Underlambda, higher tiers have a few charsaving abbreviations
21:30:14 <ais523> in particular, ` for ~^ and & for ~*
21:31:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: thing is, the representation of a bit in that tree depends not just on what the bit is, but also on whether it is left or right branch
21:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... would be funnier it it looked like combined
21:32:53 <ais523> yes, but that's less useful
21:33:00 <ais523> oh, ' is another typesaving character
21:33:11 <ais523> likewise for '^ == (^) and for any other character
21:33:19 <ais523> also, I suspect '(a) == ((a))
21:33:24 <ais523> because there's no other obvious meaning
21:33:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: or rather, every right branch contains an extra ! to get rid of the left branch still on the stack
21:33:58 <ais523> AnMaster: but that would make the input /longer/
21:34:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, one char saved is one place up in anagolf gained!
21:34:42 <AnMaster> ais523, only if you count bytes rather than chars
21:34:59 <ais523> oerjan: if the rules were long enough, presumably it would be shorter to write a recursive !-adder
21:35:11 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but golfing servers do count bytes
21:36:37 <oerjan> ais523: oh and also there is a recursion on the stack, because you look at the last two bits and one bit, each of which have two elements on the stack for accepting next bit
21:37:20 <fizzie> You can add a combining ^ into the mathematical ~ operator, ∼. That should give a reasonably-rendered ~^-combination. Would look something like ∼̂. Maybe the ascii-~ would work too. Though combining characters tend to render uglily.
21:38:42 <coppro> fizzie: is that actually a combining circumflex over a tilde?
21:38:54 <fizzie> It should be, but I might've gotten them in the wrong order.
21:38:57 <ais523> it's a combining circumflex over something that looks like a tilde but isn't
21:39:02 <ais523> why not just use a genuine tilde?
21:39:15 <fizzie> Because the TILDE OPERATOR is obviously greater than some crummy ASCII tilde.
21:40:01 <fizzie> Besides, the mathematical operators block has, for those situations where a regular ~ is too weak, also the ∾ -- "inverted lazy S = most positive".
21:40:59 <fizzie> Heh, there's also a Unicode codepoint with the official name "NOT TILDE", but sadly it's just a tilde-with-a-slash (≁) and not something that's really not tilde, like, say, a duck.
21:41:14 <coppro> First one is an ascii tilde, second is a TILDE OPERATOR
21:41:18 <ais523> the one on the left looks better to me, that's the ASCII tilde based on how it looks
21:41:29 <fizzie> They render pretty similarly here.
21:41:36 <coppro> the only difference here is that the OPERATOR is antialiased
21:41:42 <coppro> possibly a different font
21:41:51 * ais523 wonders why everyone is guessing that Jeff Atwood's password is "orange"
21:42:46 <oerjan> ais523: orange u glad that isn't your password?
21:43:01 <ais523> oerjan: where does that joke come from, I never understood it
21:43:14 <oerjan> it's a knock knock joke iirc
21:43:30 <ais523> substitution of "orange" for "aren't" isn't particularly obviously funny
21:43:36 <ais523> although I've seen it several times in jokes
21:43:44 <fizzie> Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃.
21:43:46 <ais523> for me it's become funny due to the repetition
21:44:09 <oerjan> ais523: http://www.listphile.com/Best_Knock_Knock_Jokes_of_All_Time/Orange_Banana
21:44:42 <oerjan> ais523: also, knock knock jokes are _supposed_ to be puns like that
21:44:54 <ais523> I still don't get the pun
21:45:02 <oerjan> hm the banana part isn't though
21:45:03 <ais523> I know they're supposed to be puns
21:45:09 <ais523> but orange doesn't sound anything like aren't
21:45:19 <ais523> nor does aren't sound like something orange-related
21:45:24 <oerjan> ais523: "aren't you glad i didn't say banana"
21:45:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so, any underlambda implementation yet
21:45:37 <oerjan> ais523: i suppose it depends on dialect
21:46:06 <ais523> I can't even imagine how "orange" could sound like "aren't"
21:46:36 <oerjan> you have to mingle the two words
21:46:55 * ais523 wonders if he's being meta-trolled
21:47:28 <ais523> all the vowels are different, nearly all the consonants are different...
21:47:36 <oerjan> ais523: oh you're british, maybe you don't have an r sound in aren't?
21:47:39 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃. <-- what about ~ with ^ above
21:47:57 <AnMaster> how do you make those combining ones
21:47:57 <ais523> AnMaster: loads of those have been pasted earlier
21:48:05 <ais523> AnMaster: and via character map
21:48:10 <ais523> you mean, you don't have a GUI program for htat?
21:48:21 <ais523> AnMaster: the combiners are there too
21:48:36 <fizzie> I've usually been using gucharmap, which is a gnomey sort of program.
21:48:44 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a KDE thing too.
21:48:53 <oerjan> ais523: i suspect it works best in a texas accent, or something midwest US like that
21:48:55 <fizzie> It might even have a built-in character-select-o-tron, for all I know.
21:49:13 <fizzie> Just remember to stick combining characters after the thing you want them to combine with.
21:50:15 <AnMaster> will compile it and try it later
21:50:51 <oerjan> any americans around who can tell us whether "aren't" really sounds anything like "orange"?
21:51:28 <AnMaster> different in Oxford English I think
21:51:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("I must sleep!").
21:51:56 <pikhq> *Maybe* in some exaggerated parody of Texas English...
21:53:00 <oerjan> so GWB gets it perfect? :)
21:53:56 <ais523> oh, if it needs an American accent, possibly I can imagine how it works
21:54:11 * oerjan should have seen that AnMaster comment coming
21:54:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: famous ex-president with bad speech
22:03:26 <GregorR> ORANGE YOU GLAD I DIDN'T SAY BANANA?
22:03:41 <ais523> GregorR: oerjan linked me to it, I'd never seen it before
22:04:05 <GregorR> Oh I was just responding to <oerjan> any americans around who can tell us whether "aren't" really sounds anything like "orange"?
22:04:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, yay back to square one
22:04:43 <AnMaster> that was the start of the discussion duh
22:05:03 <GregorR> I have a program looking for all potential 26-letter pangrams right now.
22:05:06 <oerjan> GregorR: ais523 being british couldn't imagine how that pun actually works
22:05:33 <GregorR> Fail Brittania (couldn't resist the pun urge :P )
22:05:54 <ais523> GregorR: there was a 26-letter pangram as the answer to a massive puzzle on Agora that lasted five weeks
22:05:58 <GregorR> AnMaster: A sentence containing every letter of the alphabet, e.g. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
22:06:02 <oerjan> This sentence contains 43 'a's, 9 'b's, ..., and 16 small jumping rats.
22:06:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is a huge search space
22:06:24 <oerjan> oh not self-describing ones
22:06:32 <ais523> "Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph."
22:06:43 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think there's a 26-letter self-describing pangram
22:06:45 <GregorR> And the trick is not to use lame ones like that :P
22:06:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, you need to check if they are gramtically valid.
22:06:48 <oerjan> those Kurds are always getting it
22:06:58 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, that's gonna be the PITA part X-P
22:06:59 <oerjan> ais523: well not in english. maybe Rotokas.
22:06:59 <ais523> oerjan: actually, it's just a Kurd who drew the qoph
22:07:18 <ais523> someone should write a minimum-length pangram in Chinese
22:07:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about: The brown fox quick over jumps the lazy dog.
22:07:39 <GregorR> AnMaster: That's not a _26-letter_ pangram.
22:07:49 <ais523> there's a minimum-length pangram in Japanese kana, IIRC, which makes a lot of sense and even scans correctly, IIRC they use it to order the alphabet
22:08:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, any example of such as 26 one
22:08:05 <GregorR> AnMaster: Which is to say, contains ever letter exactly once.
22:08:15 <GregorR> <ais523> "Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph."
22:08:16 <pikhq> GregorR: Been watching Code Geass or something?
22:08:24 <GregorR> I've seen two or three, but they're all hyper-lame.
22:08:35 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, although some of them are rather obscure
22:08:45 <AnMaster> ais523, too obscure for aspell even
22:08:50 <ais523> that's one of the few isogram pangrams which actually makes grammatical sense
22:09:00 <GregorR> Nobody outside Wales would ever use "cwm"
22:09:06 <ais523> AnMaster: "zing" is the noise a bullet makes as it whizzes past you
22:09:15 <pikhq> I thought that was Welsh.
22:09:21 <AnMaster> like all words but "fly" there
22:09:28 <pikhq> (I don't know of any other languages that use w as a vowel...)
22:09:30 <GregorR> pikhq: It's a Welsh loan word, yes.
22:10:04 <ais523> it's a sort of valley shaped like a semicircle
22:10:36 <ais523> Vext is an old spelling of "vexed"
22:10:37 <AnMaster> fly jabs I think I know, unless they mean something odd
22:10:40 <ais523> which means confused, or annoyed
22:10:57 <ais523> qoph is a letter in the Hebrew alphabet
22:11:08 <ais523> and a Kurd is a member of the Kurdish ethnolinguistic group
22:11:14 <ais523> Deewiant: I thought so too, but I looked it up
22:11:35 <AnMaster> so. what does the entire sentence mean
22:11:40 <GregorR> Of course "vexed" means confused.
22:12:07 <oerjan> you didn't explain cwm
22:12:09 <GregorR> Confused flying valleys jab those instances of the letter qoph that are (quite inexplicably) Kurdish.
22:12:11 <ais523> AnMaster: Zing! An angry fly that lives in a semicircular valley jabs the Hebrew letter qoph, as drawn by a Kurd
22:12:14 <ais523> oerjan: I did, just earlier
22:12:24 <ais523> GregorR: it's ambiguous, my meaning is slightly more sensible
22:12:26 <GregorR> Oh, I'm sorry, yes, fly as in a noun, bleh
22:13:15 <AnMaster> what about one using space at most once ;P
22:13:52 <AnMaster> how did anyone come up with that one
22:14:10 <AnMaster> how the hell do you pronounce "cwm"
22:15:02 <ais523> AnMaster: the w's a vowel, it sounds like about half an oo
22:15:49 * GregorR wonders how AnMaster pronounces "book" :P
22:15:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't help me if I don't know how it is supposed to sound
22:16:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, not like a double single o no
22:16:19 <AnMaster> I just can't figure out how to pronounce half an o
22:16:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: Only the Welsh truly know.
22:16:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that u the Swedish u?
22:17:20 <GregorR> Well, y'know, those Swedes speak in a blurry way.
22:17:42 <Deewiant> I can't think of a Swedish word with /u/ :-/
22:17:52 <AnMaster> works great of ASCII and åäöÅÄÖ but not anything else really
22:17:54 <Deewiant> Anyway, it's like the Swedish o
22:18:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so Swedish o is /u/?
22:19:04 <GregorR> IIII'm a monoglot and I'm OH-KAY, I sleep all night and I work all day.
22:19:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so ais523 was just misleading me then
22:19:25 <kerlo> A 26-letter self-describing pangram: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z.
22:19:30 <Deewiant> More likely he's confused about the vowel sounds in his own language :-P
22:19:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I still can't figure out cwm, I mean... what is the c there. is it s or k sound
22:20:06 <kerlo> C is only S before E, I and Y.
22:20:09 <kerlo> W is not E, I or Y.
22:20:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so like "kom" in Swedish?
22:20:37 <Deewiant> Right, Swedish o is *not* always /u/
22:20:43 <kerlo> And the letter "w" is almost always the long "oo" sound, I think. Like, um...
22:20:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah it is more like å in there
22:20:56 <oerjan> i vaguely recall welsh c is always k
22:21:54 <AnMaster> ok.... So I have something like 4 totally different descriptions of how cwm is pronounced now
22:22:21 <kerlo> Ideally, everyone would understand me if I called a goose a gwç.
22:22:27 <oerjan> heh, "The letter "k" was in common use until the sixteenth century, but was dropped at the time of the publication of the New Testament in Welsh, as William Salesbury explained: "C for K, because the printers have not so many as the Welsh requireth". This change was not popular at the time."
22:22:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and that is like "kom" but with the other o sound? As in "gol"?
22:22:52 <kerlo> AnMaster: in IPA, /u/ is the "oo" of "goose".
22:23:01 <ais523> so in other words, it isn't spelt "kwm" because old printers didn't have enough ks?
22:23:20 <AnMaster> ais523, now you are just being absurd.
22:23:29 <ais523> AnMaster: I was replying to oerjan
22:23:32 * AnMaster wonders why "om" at end of words in Swedish make a short o sound.
22:23:43 <kerlo> Okay, maybe I'm weird.
22:24:05 <oerjan> ais523: so it seems :D
22:24:40 <kerlo> No, "goose" isn't /gʊ:s/, unless either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English is lying or my knowledge of English is very fail.
22:24:56 <fizzie> Wiktionary's IPAfication of "goose" is /guːs/ actually.
22:25:14 <kerlo> The word "foot" is /fʊt/.
22:25:33 <Deewiant> Yeah, that's definitely a different sound
22:25:37 <Deewiant> But I think /u/ is not what I thought it was
22:25:57 <AnMaster> so spelled in English it would be koom?
22:26:15 <coppro> dictionary.com lists it as koom
22:26:30 <kerlo> Yeah, it would probably be "koom".
22:26:36 <AnMaster> I think I hit a hidden TP reference there...
22:27:00 <Deewiant> Okay, I just don't get how Finnish "kuu" is /ku:/ while English "food" is /fu:d/
22:27:03 <AnMaster> I guess "koom valley" in the Discworld is a pun on cwm
22:27:05 <kerlo> Rhyming with "boom", not the first half of "woman".
22:27:26 <kerlo> Too bad I don't know any Finnish.
22:27:32 <kerlo> Is it Indo-European?
22:27:43 <ais523> anyway, I love the word "cwm", because it's normally a giveaway that someone is attempting a pangram
22:28:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't it the only language in that family?
22:28:20 <fizzie> I freely admit I probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between 'food' /fu:d/ and 'foot' /fʊt/ based on only the wovel; I mean, sure, there's a difference, but in the grand scheme of life, the universe and everything, it's not so big.
22:28:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and a bunch of very-tiny languages
22:28:38 <Deewiant> Meänkieli, Saami, Mordva, etc.
22:28:41 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I freely admit I probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between 'food' /fu:d/ and 'foot' /fʊt/ based on only the wovel; I mean, sure, there's a difference, but in the grand scheme of life, the universe and everything, it's not so big. <-- it is rather obvious to me
22:29:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Very-tiny, like I said.
22:29:11 <kerlo> I could differentiate between "wide" and "white" based only on the vowel.
22:29:29 * AnMaster hates when you get double "of" in English
22:29:44 <kerlo> Everyone hates when you get double anything in English.
22:30:03 <Deewiant> Is that not a very different vowel
22:30:06 <kerlo> But sometimes we just have to accept that that that is is.
22:30:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, foot vs. food is more different
22:30:19 <kerlo> Deewiant: those vowels sound pretty much the same to me.
22:30:26 <kerlo> Foot is different from both.
22:30:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, but I'm not interested in that.
22:30:31 <AnMaster> <kerlo> But sometimes we just have to accept that that that is is. <-- parser failure on three of them
22:31:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: but but but it's easy
22:31:16 <fizzie> Heh, typical Wikipedia style: "The term Finno-Ugric is somewhat controversial today[citation needed], with many historical linguists[who?] feeling --"
22:31:20 <kerlo> Noun phrase: that that that is is
22:31:23 <kerlo> Sentence: that that is is
22:31:52 <kerlo> Restrictive clause: that is
22:32:48 <kerlo> If you understand the phrase "that that is is", you just stick a complementizer in front of it and get the noun phrase found in "accept that . . .".
22:34:21 <kerlo> Spanish is less ambiguous: Pero a veces sólo tenemos que aceptar que lo que es es.
22:35:22 <oerjan> and norwegian even less: ... akseptere at det som er, er.
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22:37:31 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_%28phonetics%29
22:37:40 <Deewiant> In English, the back vowel /u/ is farther forward than what is normally indicated by the IPA letter <u>. This fronting may be shown explicitly, especially within a narrow transcription: [u̟]. Whether this is as far front as the central vowel [ʉ], or somewhere between [u] and [ʉ], may need to be clarified verbally.
22:37:51 <Deewiant> No shit it's farther forward, it's a mile away :-P
22:38:20 <fizzie> You have one big-ass mouth, then.
22:38:25 <oerjan> those english always sticking out their tongue
22:38:27 <fizzie> (Do not move the dash.)
22:40:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: But seriously, am I the only one who thinks that "food" and fi:"kuu" have completely different vowel sounds
22:40:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say "completely", but different, yes.
22:41:04 <fizzie> Of course my understanding of 'food' might be the wrong.
22:41:10 <Deewiant> I honestly thought they'd be different even in broad transcription
22:41:15 <fizzie> I am reasonably sure I know what fi:kuu sounds like.
22:41:33 <Deewiant> I assume you know what that sounds like, in general
22:42:27 <Deewiant> Although it does obfuscate a bit with the /j/ rolling into it
22:43:21 <oerjan> doncha comfuse yer prunciation, ye haer
22:44:10 <fizzie> I can plausibly believe a "you" that's exactly like fi:juu, with identical wovel to fi:kuu, but I'm not so sure I know what "you" should exactly sound like; I think if I were to say "you" and "food" they'd have somewhat different sounds, anyway.
22:44:30 <fizzie> I mean "plausibly believe that someone, esp. a Finnish someone, would say it like that".
22:44:46 <Deewiant> Certainly a Finnish someone might, but no English one IMO :-P
22:45:13 <pikhq> ... Kuu? For food?
22:45:31 <fizzie> fi:kuu is made out of cheese.
22:45:35 <pikhq> That's kinda funny, since in Japanese, "Kuu" is a informal way of saying "to eat"...
22:45:49 <fizzie> (It is the same as en:moon.)
22:50:44 <fizzie> We could switch to a two-sound phonology -- say a Hamming-encoded bitstring formed out of 0 = IPA y, 1 = IPA ɑ, duration-insensitive -- that'd certainly make the acoustics side of speech recognition easier, for one thing.
22:51:02 <fizzie> With distinct stops between bits, of course.
22:51:16 <Deewiant> No, I don't think we could. :-P
22:52:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, y-ɑ-ɑ-ɑ-y-ɑ-y-y-y-y-ɑ-ɑ-y you.
22:54:15 <pikhq> ASCII-ise that question mark?
22:55:42 <pikhq> The IPA thing that's not a y.
22:56:02 <Deewiant> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel
22:56:05 <fizzie> It's the a variant without the hook-at-the-top thing.
22:56:52 <fizzie> Actually "latin small letter alpha" seems to be the Unicode name.
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22:58:56 <pikhq> It's also encoded as A is X-SAMPA.
22:59:46 <fizzie> Those X-SAMPA "b_<" and friends look like botched horizontal-smileys.
23:01:11 <pikhq> Yeah, X-SAMPA is a pain.
23:01:21 <pikhq> What's more a pain is the notable lack of terminals that do Unicode right.
23:01:33 <pikhq> And they're the only programs that don't on my system.
23:03:09 <Deewiant> Clearly you're using the wrong terminals.
23:06:00 <pikhq> rxvt-unicode is misnamed.
23:06:10 <pikhq> Must be rxvt minus unicode.
23:07:48 <ehird> pikhq: urxvt doesn't do unicode?
23:08:31 <pikhq> It sure hasn't for me.
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23:30:17 <fizzie> It's been doing unicode very well for me. Well, I guess the combining-character rendering could use some work. But other than that, and even that stuff rudimentarily works.
23:34:24 <fizzie> One might need to give it reasonable fonts, though; I'm not sure what the default font search list looks like. I've been using a "URxvt.font: xft:DejaVu Sans Mono:size=8, xft:Kochi Gothic:size=8" (and identical boldFont) resource line.
23:36:37 <fizzie> Well, and I haven't really tried anything fancy, like switching direction with the right-to-left mark; but certainly it's been reasonably good in rendering fancy characters.
23:37:54 <fizzie> ehird: I started with 10, I think; used that about a year, switched to 9, used that one more year, and recently switched to 8.
23:38:04 <fizzie> It's some sort of adaptation technique, I guess.
23:38:15 <fizzie> Maybe I can graduate to 7 soon.
23:38:47 <coppro> pango's got incredible Unicode rendering
23:39:01 <ehird> coppro: that's what SHE said!
23:40:08 <ais523> ehird: doesn't work in that context
23:40:20 <ehird> ais523: that's the point
23:40:27 <ais523> I'm using size-9 font atm, I deliberately sized it down from the default
23:41:00 <fizzie> Heh, urxvt FAQ; "here is a more complete set of non-standard colors" (to replace the ones that look mostly like a VGA screen) "They have been described (not by me) as 'pretty girly'."
23:42:00 <fizzie> This one is low-ish in the DPI rankings; the reasonably common 94dpi.
23:43:56 <ehird> fizzie: ITYM 96dpi
23:44:16 <ehird> This house has some CRTs, my 100dpi screen, and the ole 84dpi screen
23:49:48 <fizzie> No, 94, officially; pixel pitch of 0.270 mm, translating to (25.4 mm/in) / (0.270 mm/dot) = 94.074... dot/in. I guess it might not be "reasonably common", though.
23:53:43 <fizzie> Hadn't noticed before that they're making "normal" laptops nowadays with 16" 1920x1080 displays (which means ~140dpi) -- I did know about the really high-DPI screens in some VAIO models and other "high-end" things, but that 16" one was a cheapo-laptop, some <1000 eur price.
23:54:24 <ehird> fizzie: macbook pros have 17"
23:54:39 <ehird> iphone has 160dpi display
23:55:21 <GregorR> 9 a i o pb qs rn te whyd xv
23:55:41 <fizzie> Last looked at Apple laptop specs when getting the iBook G4.
23:56:19 <fizzie> (That one was 12" 1024x768, meaning a bit over 100 dots.)
23:56:31 <fizzie> Sleepity-sleep anyway.
00:04:39 <pikhq> fizzie: Any idea how you make urxvt handle the compose key?
00:11:12 <pikhq> Hrm. Well, now I wonder if it's screen that's screwing with me.
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00:12:22 <pikhq> Quick! Someone use Unicode!
00:13:03 <pikhq> ... A question mark?
00:13:29 <ais523> that's the same as ehird's with a different accent
00:13:33 <pikhq> GOD DAMNED YOU URXVT.
00:13:53 <pikhq> I see question mark after question mark.
00:14:17 <pikhq> fizzie: You said urxvt actually worked for you?
00:14:20 <pikhq> What magic did you do?
00:14:38 <ehird> is yer terminal set right pikhq?
00:17:40 <pikhq> More question marks.
00:19:45 <pikhq> It shows every Unicode character with a single question mark.
00:20:16 <pikhq> Odd, given that it's using Deja Vu Sans, which I *know* has Unicode characters.
00:22:00 <ehird> anyone have a fast internet connection and an open udp port? fizzie?
00:22:16 <ehird> I'm talking to ais523 about internet latency; we'd like to have a roundtrip of less than a tenth of second
00:26:53 <GregorR> 6 a i o pb qt rm sd we xl yuk zn
00:28:20 <GregorR> That's the status of my pangram seeker :P
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00:28:34 <ehird> GregorR: make it optimize for longer words.
00:28:53 <GregorR> ehird: In retrospect I would do that, but it's too late now.
00:29:03 <ehird> GregorR: That'll take years, sir
00:29:10 <ehird> GregorR: Make a self-describing sentence
00:29:17 <GregorR> I'm not convinced that it will *shrugs*
00:29:17 <ehird> This sentence has 1 As, ...
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00:39:07 <pikhq> ehird: A tenth of a second? I wish. I've got a lag of 4 seconds ATM.
00:42:08 <oerjan> lag lag lag your boat, gently down the tubes...
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00:44:34 <ehird> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/5255394/Alien-skull-spotted-on-Mars.html
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01:23:10 <comex> Prelude> ((/) 2) 8
01:23:37 <ehird> ones infix ones prefix
01:23:48 <comex> except _/x is not valid syntax
01:24:04 <comex> then do I have to do (`subf` x)
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01:26:04 <comex> what if I have a f a b c d
01:26:11 <comex> and I want to curry the c
01:26:49 <oerjan> (\c -> a f a b c d) yourC
01:27:16 <oerjan> flip (a f a b) d, i think
01:27:17 <comex> the first 'a' was an article, you know :p
01:27:42 <comex> flip :: (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
01:28:03 <oerjan> (`whatever` x) = flip whatever x
01:28:49 <oerjan> but you can only use `` with single identifiers
01:29:53 <oerjan> also, subf exists, it's called subtract
01:30:27 <comex> it was a contrived example anyway :p
01:30:36 <oerjan> it exists for a technical reason
01:30:51 <oerjan> because (- x) is negative x, not a section
01:31:10 <oerjan> so you need to use (subtract x) if you want the section
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02:05:28 <pikhq> I'd like to take this opportunity to state that all sellers of digital information are guilty of price fixing.
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03:09:14 <GregorR> The commercials for Star Trek $MOVIE_NOT_NUMBERED makes it look godawful.
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03:15:52 <Sgeo> Anyone feel that programming classes shouldn't be required for non-programmers?
03:15:53 <pikhq> Also, I note that Sam Hughes needs to write for Star Trek.
03:16:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, but they should be taught better.
03:16:40 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, good luck with that
03:16:44 <pikhq> (there's a freaking programming class for non-programmers at my school that uses C++. C++ for non-programmers? Madness!)
03:17:05 <Sgeo> Saw some student who wanted help testing. I saw code like:
03:17:13 <Sgeo> MULTIPLICATION = multiplication()
03:17:20 <pikhq> psygnisfive: C++! Madness!
03:17:26 <Sgeo> since he never figured out void functions
03:18:04 <Sgeo> (yes, a function like multiplication() made sense in context. The fact that it returned something (always 0), not so much)
03:21:36 <GregorR> <pikhq> This summer, I have so far designed a new (miniscule) processor architecture, written an emulator for it, and came up with an optimising Brainfuck compiler in Brainfuck.
03:22:23 <pikhq> Ah, yes. That was a productive summer for me.
03:22:33 <pikhq> And to think, I did it all on dialup.
03:22:35 <GregorR> I can't seem to find Sgeo's first messages in the logs ...
03:23:10 <GregorR> * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-(
03:23:16 <GregorR> YOUR NAME CHANGE CONFUSES AND INFURIATES ME
03:24:20 <GregorR> Hah, psygnisfive (then augur)'s first messages were "<augur> GregorR -- gregor richardson? <augur> i know a gregor richardson and i was gonna be all like <augur> ZOMG IS IT YOU"
03:25:38 <GregorR> How many people here HAVEN'T had a name change?
03:25:52 <psygnisfive> how many people here HAVEN'T has a sex change?
03:25:53 <pikhq> pikhq <-- always pikhq
03:26:07 <psygnisfive> i wouldve stayed augur if it werent for some cock using that name
03:26:09 <pikhq> I've had this nickname for *11 freaking years*.
03:26:10 <GregorR> ehird <-- had a backtick, but otherwise
03:26:27 <pikhq> Doesn't seem like that long, but, well, I'm 19. Forever for me.
03:27:38 <GregorR> <bsmntbombdood> how does one learn to speak Klingon?
03:27:58 <pikhq> I think I remember that.
03:48:22 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/8hqgy/fire_check_shot_check_idiot_check/
03:55:56 <GregorR> Lodz VFW benchmarks jug pix qty.
03:57:55 <pikhq> It still needs to be said.
04:03:18 <GregorR> <Brian> And it suddenly makes a lot more sense when you consider 'jugs' can be a euphemism!
04:03:19 <GregorR> <Brian> I honestly typed "pictures of jugs" into Google
04:23:31 <Sgeo> Is "OSAM Autorun Manager" good?
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04:38:23 <GregorR> <puzzlet> http://puzzlet.org/puzzlet/~Funge/PuzzletChung/SquareRoot <puzzlet> One of my experiments..
04:39:17 <GregorR> Damn, pgimeno hasn't been on in 5 months.
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04:49:17 <puzzlet> still can be found at http://puzzlet.org/personal/wiki.php/~Funge/PuzzletChung/SquareRoot
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05:37:05 <GregorR> puzzlet: I'm quoting peoples' first few words.
05:38:43 <psygnisfive> puzzlet, this is a befunge program that takes square roots?
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05:42:31 <GregorR> Heh, my first words here were about FYB.
05:42:37 <GregorR> I should get that goin' again :P
05:42:49 <GregorR> Somebody's got to beat logicex-3
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06:06:50 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
06:09:46 <GregorR> Now I just need to get somebody interested in FYB again ...
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12:05:29 <kerlo> (^x.xx)(^x.xx) = /x/^x.xx/xx, but I don't think ^x.xx can be translated.
12:11:58 <fizzie> You are probably just imagining being here.
12:15:55 <kerlo> AnMaster: a mixture of lambda calculus and ///.
12:19:33 <Slereah> I guess it's /a/b/c -> replace a's by c in b, given the context?
12:19:59 <fizzie> It's /a/b/c -> replace a's by b in c, actually.
12:20:11 <AnMaster> but that is just plain /// isn't it?
12:20:31 <Slereah> Although you'll have variable collision if you do that
12:20:47 <oklopol> do you think i should be a farmer?
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12:25:04 <oklopol> last time i read that as "dickandsuck"
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12:47:35 <AnMaster> hm did xkcd update two days after each other
12:48:11 <oerjan> ah yes and it's a multipart story
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13:04:55 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> /a/b/c is very similar to (.a.c) b
13:05:19 <oerjan> the problem is that that also garbles any instances of /a/b/ in c
13:06:25 <oerjan> the problem is, it is _very_ hard to modify just _some_ instances of anything
13:07:24 <oerjan> i mean to show slashes TC is hard
13:07:40 <oerjan> because it _doesn't_ work like lambda calculus
13:08:23 <oerjan> oh btw it's (\a.b) c, if anything
13:10:40 <oerjan> oh you need to escape all / in b
13:11:52 <psygnisfive> im not entirely up on how the slashes get escaped
13:14:07 <fizzie> Personally I couldn't even do an infinite loop in ///, one that wouldn't have a single non-terminating /// expression. To loop "aaa" you need some code that translates "x" into "aaa [code that translates x into aaa] x", and it seems to be pretty difficult to do anything involving just the first "aaa" part without messing up the latter code.
13:18:18 <Slereah> He means shit ain't TC so stop trying
13:18:28 <psygnisfive> i think that ///s might be an alternative notation for de bruijn notation lc.
13:19:04 <psygnisfive> de bruijn notation is almost identical, except /a/b/c is (b) [a] c
13:19:29 <psygnisfive> it could be an important difference tho. i dont know.
13:22:20 <fizzie> I just mean that anything with /// that involves generating code seemed to be rather tricky in practice. I couldn't write a /// expression Z that would turn "x" into "Zx", for example. (And in fact /x/...x.../ will never terminate, of course, so you'd need something pretty clever.)
13:23:32 <oerjan> ah yes, the substitution is repeated until it no longer applies
13:23:52 <fizzie> I mean /x/...x.../ will never terminate, since it keeps applying the substitution as long as there is a single x in the rest of the code.
13:24:12 <psygnisfive> well, surely that by itself wont not terminante, since its substituting x for ...x... in nothing
13:24:55 <psygnisfive> /a/b/c keeps replacing a with b in c and all the versions of c that get produced by substitutions?
13:25:21 <psygnisfive> so /a/b/c -> /a/b/c' -> /a/b/c'' ... until c^(n) has no a's?
13:26:11 <oerjan> it means that afterwards, there _will_ be no a in the code
13:26:35 <oerjan> and so some easy ways of looping are excluded
13:26:36 <psygnisfive> i guess thats a problem if you have a /// that should apply to another version of itself
13:27:53 <oerjan> in particular, if b contains a you get a tight infinite loop, which never prints anything
13:31:52 <oerjan> to get around this, i recall trying thinking about making a something with more than a single character, so you can reconstruct it
13:32:05 <oerjan> (if a were a single character, you could never get it back)
13:32:25 <oerjan> but then the need to escape slashes gets added to that, and i gave up
13:32:40 <psygnisfive> so that \a doesnt match a until the replace cycle??
13:33:08 <psygnisfive> :|} is a frustrated guy with an amish beard
13:33:20 <oerjan> broke his wagon wheel?
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13:33:56 <fizzie> I did also try thinking about using some other longer strings, and then replacing them back with something like a simple /foo/bar/, but that hit the snag that it would of course replace any later "/foo/bar/" you wanted to run in the whole future of the program with a /bar/bar/.
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13:34:23 <fizzie> An easy language it is not.
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13:43:12 <Slereah> Par la guerre personne ne devient grand
13:44:16 <Deewiant> That's a good attitude for a linguist to have
13:46:38 <Slereah> Don't you call me cockface
13:46:40 * oerjan imagines psygnisfive somewhere in the depths of the amazon, saying "english, cockface."
13:46:46 <Slereah> Until your cock is in my face.
13:47:39 <Slereah> But this place is full of finns and Frenchmen
13:48:17 <psygnisfive> apparently some nutters have tried to apply type theory to the social sciences
13:48:49 <oerjan> first it was darwinism, now it's type theory
13:50:40 <Slereah> The holocaust was because of type theory
13:50:54 <Slereah> Bertrand Russell is a murderer
13:51:18 <oerjan> he was just following orders
13:52:26 <Slereah> Are you aware that Hilbert is just an anagram for Hitler b
13:52:59 <Slereah> Hilbert came up with the extermination of untyped objects.
13:53:28 <psygnisfive> In the second argument of `(+)', namely `jew'
13:53:32 <psygnisfive> In the definition of `it': it = german + jew
13:53:49 <Slereah> Let's make a language out of this
13:53:56 <oerjan> + has a strict segregation policy
13:56:09 <Deewiant> int process_spell_target(int who, int what, int y0, int x0, int y1, int x1, int spell, int level, u32b flg, int region_id, int delay, int damage_div, bool one_grid, bool forreal, bool player, void retarget(int *ty, int *tx, u32b *flg, int method, int level, bool full, bool *one_grid), bool *cancel)
13:56:41 <Slereah> is it some code for magic?
13:57:12 <Deewiant> I got it from http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2009/04/moral-simplification.html
13:57:49 <fizzie> Some people would've just used a typedef for the function pointer in there. I call those people quitters!
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14:47:10 <lifthrasiir> it's likely that SSA-based analysis is needed to propagate brainfuck IL correctly.
14:48:16 <lifthrasiir> intermediate language, used in esotope-bfc compiler
14:49:20 <lifthrasiir> i have written analysis code for one basic block, but there are so many small basic blocks and i should analyze them in the whole...
14:49:28 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/tip/esotope-bfc.py
14:50:16 <lifthrasiir> there are many rooms of improvement, many of them requires SSA form or something like that
14:51:35 <lifthrasiir> wikipedia contains some article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form
14:51:54 <lifthrasiir> it is a popular technique in the compiler construction.
15:18:36 <Sgeo> ehird, new Fine Structure out
15:22:54 <pikhq> Another new one? Sweet.
15:23:06 <pikhq> Oh, it's a few days old.
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16:35:49 <GregorR> I'm up to 14 potential 26-letter pangrams :)
16:35:53 <GregorR> They're all pretty terrible though :P
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16:43:32 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: are there common pattern in them? for example, certain word is likely to appear in them?
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16:58:21 <impomatic> Have you heard about Lee Sallow's pangram machine?
16:58:56 <impomatic> Cool looking machine from about 25 years ago.
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17:33:03 <GregorR> lifthrasiir: Yes. Those acronyms I didn't manage to filter out are popular :P
17:33:25 <ehird> 01:05 pikhq: I'd like to take this opportunity to state that all sellers of digital information are guilty of price fixing.
17:33:26 <ehird> 01:05 pikhq: That is all.
17:33:29 <ehird> Ex-fucking-XACTLY.
17:33:46 <ehird> Bits are not scarce; there is infinite supply and finite demand.
17:34:47 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ i once heard of mercurial support in google code, but when i registered the project i realized mercurial support is for invited users... :S
17:34:52 <GregorR> That's by definition. The free market has not yet figured out how to deal with non-scarce resources, for that very reason, and to compensate they're treating them like scarce resources.
17:35:02 <ehird> lifthrasiir: Github ftw ;-)
17:35:17 <GregorR> lifthrasiir: If you'd like mercurial support, I could set you up a page on codu.org/projects .
17:35:19 <ehird> GregorR: Selling non-scarce resources is inherently immoral, imo.
17:35:28 <ehird> Also, free markets are dumb to the max :P
17:35:57 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: i feel google code is quite convenient, except for its VCS support
17:35:57 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you can integrate google code with mercurial
17:36:02 <ehird> lifthrasiir: go to the admin panel
17:36:05 <ehird> to do the tabs panel
17:36:08 <ehird> input Source in the box
17:36:11 <ehird> now, edit the Source wiki pag
17:36:18 <ehird> and put checkout instructions on there and a link to the web interface
17:36:25 <ehird> = the source tab on google code links to that; hooray
17:36:32 <ehird> you can also hide e.g. Downloads if you're not going to use that
17:36:43 <ehird> lifthrasiir: I've done it befor
17:36:47 <ehird> it works excellently
17:36:52 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/github-and-google-code/
17:36:57 <ehird> the actual github project has been deleted
17:37:00 <ehird> but that shows the tab
17:37:31 <GregorR> <ehird> the actual github project has been deleted // I'm going to use this out of context hundreds of times >: )
17:37:32 <ehird> lifthrasiir: then if you put in e.g. the URL field on your hgweb, you can put a link to the google code there
17:37:43 <ehird> I deleted it myself
17:37:57 <GregorR> <ehird> the actual github project has been deleted <ehird> I deleted it myself
17:38:05 <ehird> GregorR: Er, what's so funny?
17:38:10 <ehird> That's what she said?
17:38:24 <GregorR> That says nothing about Google code. If I take that out of context, it sounds like you're saying you deleted github :P
17:41:04 <ehird> GregorR: I deleted the project-on-github
17:42:04 <GregorR> Of course you did, that's clear enough.
17:42:14 <GregorR> But it's less clear when I don't include those details, hence "out of context"
17:42:24 <GregorR> This joke has now been so over-explained it's been beaten to death.
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18:45:19 <ais523> this connection's rather flaky, it seems
18:50:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:45:17 -!- Slereah has joined.
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20:00:13 <ais523> some of Perl6's features seem only useful to golfers
20:00:34 <ais523> for instance, the pair (foo => 42) can be abbreviated :foo(42), which can be abbreviated :42foo
20:04:03 <lifthrasiir> so it treats 42 and foo as two tokens, not an error (still)?
20:04:19 <ais523> not just that, it's a deliberate abbreviation AFAICT
20:04:30 <ais523> :42 foo would mean something entirely different, probably
20:04:50 <ais523> actually, even (foo => 42) is an abbreviation for ('foo' => 42)
20:05:07 <fizzie> What would :42'foo' mean?
20:05:21 <ais523> probably a syntax error
20:05:23 <fizzie> What's that : about, anyway?
20:05:46 <ais523> Everyone wants the colon.
20:13:35 <ais523> more fun Perl6 syntax: "\c[NEGATED DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR DOUBLE RIGHT TURNSTILE]"
20:15:00 <lifthrasiir> >>> u'\N{NEGATED DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR DOUBLE RIGHT TURNSTILE}'
20:16:50 <fizzie> >>> u'\N{tetragram for vastness or wasting}'
20:16:55 <fizzie> The most useful thing ever.
20:17:22 <fizzie> I wonder how many copies of over-a-megabyte Unicode character name database I have because of stuff like this.
20:17:24 <ais523> what about glagolitic capital letter spidery ha?
20:18:15 <ehird> >>> print u'\N{glagolitic capital letter spidery ha}'
20:18:21 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: no, it surely can be compressed less than 64K. i have done such thing once.
20:18:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what did I do now?
20:18:44 <lifthrasiir> afaik python also uses such compression, making entire database less than 100K iirc
20:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it was a sigh in awe of the glagolitic capital letter spidery ha clearly!
20:19:05 <ais523> that's still over 5% of a floppy disk
20:19:34 <ehird> AnMaster: 20:17 ais523: what about glagolitic capital letter spidery ha?
20:19:42 <ehird> AnMaster: If you think I did that spontaneously, lern2scrollback.
20:19:51 <lifthrasiir> but python distribution doesn't fit in a floppy disk, does it?
20:19:58 <AnMaster> ehird, did I say it was spontaneous...
20:20:14 <ais523> lifthrasiir: maybe not, but I've had to fit python onto a small computer with only 16MB Flash space before now
20:20:31 <ais523> we did manage it in the end by uninstalling all the things we didn't need
20:20:33 <ehird> AnMaster: the 'sigh' seemed to imply you were blaming me.
20:20:34 <ais523> lifthrasiir: hadn't heard of it
20:20:41 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> ehird, it was a sigh in awe of the glagolitic capital letter spidery ha clearly!"
20:20:56 <ehird> AnMaster: if I took that seriously you'd accuse me of lacking a sarcasm detector AKA mind reader.
20:21:07 <lifthrasiir> tinypy is a minimalistic python implemenation whose loc is just over 60K lines.
20:21:33 <lifthrasiir> if you absolutely have to integrate python within restricted environment, it might help
20:21:33 <ehird> lifthrasiir: '60K lines', 'minimalistic'
20:21:57 <fizzie> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 481008 2009-02-18 06:20 /usr/lib/python2.5/lib-dynload/unicodedata.so
20:22:05 <fizzie> The fact that it can be compressed of course doesn't mean it will.
20:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't sqlite rather minimalistic iirc? Yet it is something like 90k lines iirc
20:22:50 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: it also contains normalization tables for NFK?[CD]
20:54:54 <ais523> I love the way the Perl6 manual talks repeatedly about a function called "if"
20:55:03 <ais523> the idea being it's talking about how to do weird things with the parser
20:55:14 <ais523> in this case, how to use a function with a name that means something else
20:55:29 <ais523> likewise, it talks about how to refer to a variable called $@%$@
20:55:35 <ais523> or something like that, anyway
21:01:56 -!- olsner has joined.
21:06:30 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:06:55 <impomatic> Hi, just a quick question. How does this channel get logged? We want to log the #corewars channel
21:07:14 <ehird> impomatic: don't bother
21:07:19 <ehird> last log was accepted in 2005 iirc
21:07:29 <ehird> because it's unmaintained
21:07:35 <ehird> nef doesn't maintain it, Faré doesn't care
21:07:49 <ehird> when you COULD get it, it was done by asking
21:08:12 <ehird> impomatic: there are many free IRC log services
21:08:14 <ehird> try ircbrowse.com or something
21:08:24 <impomatic> Ah, okay. How do I ask? It's worth a try.
21:08:32 <ehird> impomatic: you can't; they don't exist :P
21:08:44 -!- ais523_ has joined.
21:08:46 <ehird> impomatic: there's one that does it by filling out a web form
21:09:19 <ehird> impomatic: http://www.irseek.com/
21:09:22 <ehird> fill in the opt in form
21:09:28 <impomatic> Does that count as unauthorised public logging? I saw a warning about that!
21:09:48 <ehird> You have to put it in the topic.
21:10:05 <ehird> impomatic: it may not be the best option for long-term archival
21:10:06 <ehird> "IRSeek will keep channel logs for upto 7-years (for example, a message that has been archived by our log-bots on January 1st, 2001 will be kept in our database until January 1st, 2008, unless a channel contact/operator has specifically requested that we remove it before that time). This policy will reduce the concern that a message once sent to a logged-channel will be archived forever. "
21:12:04 <ehird> impomatic: does anyone in the channel have a server?
21:12:39 <impomatic> I think we all used shared hosting for our webpages.
21:12:46 <ehird> ← impomatic: I may be able to set up something.
21:16:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:18:37 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:18:44 <ais523_> > {my $x = "dnab0001.png"; say ++$x;}
21:18:47 <ais523_> now that's just showing off
21:20:20 <GregorR> That's a little bit scary actually.
21:21:37 <ais523_> > {my $x = "foobar 1.0.1"; say ++$x;}
21:21:43 <ais523_> that definitely isn't what I expected
21:21:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:21:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
21:22:32 <ais523> that contradicts the spec, though, must be a bug in rakudo
21:22:35 <Deewiant> ais523: Parses it as a floating-point 1.0 and discards the rest?
21:22:38 <ais523> the spec would indicate "foobar 2.0.1"
21:26:32 <GregorR> How 'bout "foobar 1.0.1" + 0.0.1
21:28:01 <fizzie> And do you get a "foobar 2.3.4" out of "foo 1.1.1" + "bar 1.2.3"?
21:28:39 <GregorR> I suppose a link in the topic that's required to show that there's public logging going on should probably not be obfuscated :P
21:29:02 <ais523> umm, how is that any different from a direct link?
21:29:08 <ais523> neither are obviously logs from the structure of the URL
21:29:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: Logs: <http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained.>.
21:29:20 <fizzie> The word "Logs:" could...
21:29:33 <fizzie> I even spelled it the same way.
21:29:47 -!- GregorR has set topic: Logarithms: <http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained.>.
21:29:48 <fizzie> You must be some sort of thought-pire.
21:30:47 <ais523> > {my $x = "αωω"; say ++$x;}
21:30:51 <ais523> ugh, Rakudo encoding fail
21:37:03 * GregorR voodoos FYB at the channel.
21:37:12 <GregorR> You know you want to beat logicex-2!
21:37:48 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
21:37:55 <ehird> How do you show the scoreboard?
21:38:24 <GregorR> Right now when you submit a program it just runs it against all the other ones it's seen and gives you the total, when I get home tonight I'm integrating int-e's nice scoreboard (in some way)
21:38:36 <ehird> GregorR: what's the additional instructions again
21:38:53 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/ // spec is here
21:39:24 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
21:40:21 <ehird> > | 3 | moves the data pointer to the right (looping if necessary)
21:40:37 <GregorR> You have a pointer in the opponent's code.
21:40:38 <ehird> GregorR: also, show logicex-2? :P
21:40:49 <GregorR> It's also on that site, under exa/
21:42:09 <ehird> !fyb :@%>+++++++++++++++[..............................................................................................................................................................................+]*;:++!>;*
21:42:09 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
21:42:12 <ehird> !fyb butt :@%>+++++++++++++++[..............................................................................................................................................................................+]*;:++!>;*
21:43:29 <impomatic> By the way, what happened to BF Joust?
21:43:37 <ais523> impomatic: Goethe the contestmaster deregistered
21:43:53 <ais523> I want em to restart it, now might be a bad time though
21:44:02 <ais523> e reregistered but Agora's rather busy with contest shenanigans atm
21:44:19 <ais523> anyway, my plans for BF Joust are:
21:44:20 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
21:44:39 <GregorR> Stop calling them all butt :P
21:45:12 <GregorR> Amazingly, the "only-comments" FYB program doesn't win so much :P
21:45:36 <Deewiant> !fyb butt ++++++++++++++:{>}!;*
21:45:56 <Deewiant> !fyb butt ++++++++++++++:{>>>>}!;*
21:46:11 <GregorR> Deewiant: You realize the chance of that actually committing a bomb is near-zero, right?
21:46:34 <GregorR> Ah, so you're just poking around and haven't actually read the spec ;)
21:46:36 <ais523> !fyb test {>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:46:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:47:05 <Deewiant> GregorR: I don't get program buffers
21:47:16 <Deewiant> I read what ! does but I don't get it :-P
21:47:47 <ais523> !fyb test {>}[+]++++++++++++++!;
21:47:48 <Deewiant> I have to modify space first using +-
21:48:11 <Deewiant> But anyway, ! on its own just... commits.
21:48:25 <ais523> anyway, quick rules of ais523-modified BF joust:
21:48:29 <impomatic> Has anyone played with Corelife? It's a 2D version of corewar
21:48:31 <GregorR> The changes you make aren't in the program code until you commit them.
21:48:35 <ais523> two BF programs share a tape, > for one program is < for the other
21:48:55 <ais523> each starts at the < end of the tape from their own point of view on a cell with value 128, all other cells have value 0
21:49:04 <ais523> programs run simultaneously, each command takes one tick
21:49:13 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>>}++++++++++++++!;*
21:49:31 <ais523> and if at the end of each of two consecutive turns, the starting value of the tape of a program is 0, that program loses
21:49:37 <ais523> also, a program loses if it goes off the end of the tape
21:49:42 <ais523> . and , are no-ops, but still take one tick
21:49:44 <Deewiant> Hmm, it won't be zero will it now, hence the [+].
21:50:44 <GregorR> Deewiant: {} searches for the opponent's program pointer, [] is like BF's.
21:50:49 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;;{<<<}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:50:51 <GregorR> Deewiant: So that's not likely to be zero.
21:50:59 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:51:14 <Deewiant> Threads share the data pointer?
21:51:48 <Deewiant> Does the program buffer wraparound (if I <, do I get to the end)?
21:51:49 <GregorR> +++!;;{<< <-- notice a problem here :P
21:51:55 <impomatic> ais523: so ------- etc on the flag wouldn't win because it isn't 0 for 2 consecutive rounds.
21:52:17 <impomatic> but [-] would win if run on the flag because it stops when it gets to zero
21:52:22 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;:{<<<}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:52:26 <GregorR> ais523: And how big is the buffer in BF Joust, btw?
21:52:53 <ais523> GregorR: oh, it used to be rather long, but for my version I suggest random from 10 to 30 inclusive
21:52:59 <impomatic> In the one which was online before, about 130
21:53:13 <ais523> because the old long buffer menat that you couldn't both attack and defend, and had plenty of time to set up defences
21:53:47 <ais523> impomatic: yes, the two-rounds thing should invalidate most of the degenerate strategies from last time
21:53:56 <ais523> and give defensive strategies an actual chance of working
21:54:25 <ais523> woe betide anyone who tries [>[-]+] this time, they're likely to fall off the end against a defensive strategy
21:54:38 <GregorR> Maybe you should get to thread.
21:54:41 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{<}[+]++++++++++++++!;
21:54:57 * GregorR has no idea what difference that made :P
21:55:05 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;
21:55:08 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:55:26 <GregorR> Strange, did it just magically start working >_O
21:55:32 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:55:34 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:55:36 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:55:46 <Deewiant> Maybe I typoed the number of +
21:56:10 <Deewiant> !fyb butt :{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;:{>>>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;
21:56:11 <pikhq> !fyb vejni +[:{>>}+;]
21:56:27 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;
21:56:35 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;*
21:56:37 <GregorR> pikhq: Any given ':' can be spent, so doing it in a loop is mostly pointless.
21:56:52 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje {>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:06 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :fooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:12 <pikhq> GregorR: I was doing random symbols. Wee.
21:57:19 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :************************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:24 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:34 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :**********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:38 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:57:40 <pikhq> !fyb vejni All of this is a comment. Really.
21:57:42 <ehird> !fyb pietje :{>>}<[-]++++++++++++++!;*
21:58:07 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!:****;
21:58:07 <ehird> !fyb butt :{>>}[-]<+>++++++++++++++!;*
21:58:13 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:58:16 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
21:58:25 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
21:58:41 <impomatic> http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html
21:59:12 <ehird> !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
21:59:16 <ehird> !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
21:59:20 <ehird> !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>+;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
21:59:23 <ehird> !fyb butt ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>+!;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
21:59:31 <GregorR> ehird: Each thread is one more point of weakness.
21:59:33 <pikhq> I'm afraid that null beats doing stuff.
21:59:39 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
21:59:47 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{<<}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:00:13 <ehird> !fyb {>}[-]++++++++++++++!
22:00:14 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
22:00:17 <ehird> !fyb butt {>}[-]++++++++++++++!
22:00:20 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:00:49 <ehird> !fyb butt {>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:00:49 <Deewiant> Anyway, I'm going to stick with the 'this is random as hell' stance
22:00:58 <ehird> Deewiant: evidently there is a -
22:01:03 <oerjan> <ehird> try ircbrowse.com or something <<< i thought that died, it was the one cmeme used
22:01:05 <ehird> because my [-] won more :P
22:01:18 <GregorR> There's no - because that would make putting bombs much quicker and easier.
22:01:25 <ehird> !fyb butt +[{>}[+]++++++++++++++!]
22:01:25 <Deewiant> !fyb comment {>}[x]++++++++++++++!
22:01:51 <oerjan> it was very nice when it worked, although often horribly slow
22:02:03 * GregorR wonders why he can't kill the tide of fukyorbranes :P
22:02:03 <ehird> GregorR: what does the any given : thing mean
22:02:14 <ehird> !fyb butt +[:{>}[+]++++++++++++++!;]
22:02:19 <ais523> !fyb selfdestruct ?[>]++++++++++++++!
22:02:20 <ehird> | | NOTE: any given : will only fork once, then it's spent
22:02:31 <ais523> err, how did selfdestruct win so much?
22:02:38 <Deewiant> ehird: If you put a : in your code, the forking will happen only the first time it's executed.
22:02:42 <Deewiant> ehird: But you can have multiple :.
22:02:46 <GregorR> ehird: If it comes across a ':' at that program position again, it will not fork again.
22:02:48 <ais523> I was trying to get it to suicide by putting a bomb in its /own/ code
22:02:57 <ehird> ais523: | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character.
22:03:03 <GregorR> ais523: Except your own code has no %'s, so that's an infinite loop.
22:03:13 <ais523> !fyb selfdestruct ?[>]++++++++++++++!%
22:03:16 <Deewiant> That just means you can't place one directly.
22:03:26 <ais523> GregorR: ok, it does even better now
22:03:26 <ehird> how did that win 2
22:03:35 <ehird> they killed themselves in less than one tick?
22:03:42 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
22:03:45 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
22:03:49 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
22:03:53 <ais523> and you can set a bomb, just only by self-editing
22:03:57 <ehird> ais523: no you can't!
22:04:02 <ehird> | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character.
22:04:03 <ehird> | | NOTE: You cannot set a bomb in your own program, so it doesn't have a character.
22:04:18 <GregorR> Actually, you can set up us the bomb.
22:04:23 <ais523> ehird: that spec note is misleading, in that you can't set a bomb in the initial program
22:04:27 <ais523> but you can edit one into your own program later
22:04:41 <GregorR> I'll fix that when I get home tonight.
22:04:56 <GregorR> Deewiant: That's both 'so' and 'as', actually :P
22:05:09 <GregorR> Deewiant: I didn't give it a character because you're not allowed to put one in your source.
22:05:28 <Deewiant> I still think 'as' would be better ;-)
22:05:37 <ehird> !fyb buttstolen :{>}[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]+++++++++++++!>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;:@[>+++]!;*
22:06:00 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:06:07 <ehird> Deewiant: what does pietje mean?
22:06:22 <ehird> !fyb pietje :**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:06:27 <ehird> meant to rename to butt
22:06:35 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:06:52 <ehird> !fyb pietje ::**********;*;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:06:56 <Deewiant> !fyb pietje :***********************;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:07:03 <ehird> !fyb butt ::**********;;{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!
22:07:35 <Deewiant> I use it where somebody else might use "Jack"
22:08:07 <ehird> !fyb butt ::**********;;:{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!;
22:08:18 <ehird> !fyb butt ::**********;;::{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!*;;
22:08:28 <ehird> !fyb butt ::**********;;:{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!*;
22:08:40 <ehird> !fyb butt ::**********;;:[{>>}[+]++++++++++++++!]*;
22:10:04 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt is now automatically generated. Although it looks a bit freaky mid-generation :P
22:10:26 <ehird> GregorR: can you order it properly?
22:10:53 <GregorR> ehird: You mean by points? I can if you write a new mkreport program that does that ;)
22:11:45 <GregorR> It would be even easier if I made a new version of fukyorbrane that exited with a status code specifying which one won rather than having to parse its text output (I was an idiot in 2005 :P )
22:15:29 <GregorR> ehird: The only reason why it's "hard" is that the current one is just a simple script that outputs as it goes, doesn't keep any info around.
22:16:24 <pikhq> Pipe it into sort.
22:16:33 <GregorR> pikhq: Look at the output then say that again :P
22:16:53 <GregorR> Oh, btw, like the rest of EgoBot, !fyb accepts URLs, so don't think you have to fit these in an IRC line :P
22:17:18 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:17:48 <ais523> GregorR: is !fyb programmed any differently from the rest of EgoBot?
22:17:59 <ais523> I should write a !bfjoust so we can have that too
22:18:14 <GregorR> ais523: It's just another scmd. Feel free to check out the source.
22:18:18 <GregorR> ais523: That would be sveet.
22:19:29 <pikhq> GregorR: I assume you have it as a shell script?
22:19:49 <GregorR> But there's nothing shell-script-dependent about multibot of course.
22:20:00 <pikhq> Erm. mkreport, I mean.
22:20:15 <GregorR> Yeah, that's a shell script.
22:21:21 <pikhq> sort is really insanely flexible. ;)
22:21:42 <pikhq> Hmm. Where is this script, anyways?
22:21:57 <GregorR> The mkreport that that uses presently only exists in EgoBot.
22:22:08 <GregorR> (I managed to hunt down int-e and get a copy of it, he made it in the first place)
22:22:24 <pikhq> So, codu.org/eso/fyb/in_egobot/mkreport.sh
22:23:26 * GregorR leaves for home, he'll see everybody in either fifteen minutes or forty-five minutes depending on how hungry he gets on the way.
22:24:27 <pikhq> ehird: Short for "Gxis la revidu."
22:33:21 -!- ais523_ has joined.
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22:33:54 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
23:02:52 <ais523> wow, Perl6 has short-circuit exclusive or
23:02:59 <ais523> which can only happen if you write $a ^^ $b ^^ $c
23:03:11 <ais523> which is different from ($a ^^ $b) ^^ $c
23:05:17 <ais523> $a ^^ $b ^^ $c means "exactly one of $a, $b, $c is true"
23:22:17 <kerlo> The US International keyboard layout refuses to put a circumflex over a g.
23:23:03 <kerlo> â ^b ^c ^d ê ^f ^g ^h î ^j ^k ^l ^m ^n ô ^p ^q ^r ^s ^t û ^v ^w ^x ^y ^z
23:23:08 <kerlo> Proper vowels only.
23:23:36 <oerjan> that's the only ones in latin-1 i think
23:23:54 <oerjan> it's the same with a norwegian keyboard
23:24:14 <kerlo> I want a keyboard that can make circumflex-g.
23:24:26 <kerlo> Hmm, I wonder if I can find an Esperanto keyboard layout.
23:24:39 <ehird> "First of all, these fears are nonsense. C and C++ are never going to disappear. Why? Because there are classes of programming problems that are still and will always be CPU bound and there is still no language as fast as C or C++ for these problems. I highly doubt that there ever will be. "
23:25:35 <kerlo> I can type English (Zimbabwe) and Estonian (Estonia), but nothing in between.
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23:26:26 <kerlo> Too bad Esperanto is something like the only language with those characters.
23:26:36 <ais523> ehird: there was that experiment recently in which an OCaml program turned out to be faster than an equivalent C program
23:26:43 <ais523> although the C program was probably badly written
23:27:03 <ais523> kerlo: look at the Esperanto Wikipedia, they have their own format for writing Esperanto in
23:27:38 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
23:28:28 <ais523> it basically involves writing x after a letter to circumflex it
23:28:32 <ais523> but there are a few special cases
23:29:45 <kerlo> Wow. The source code does indeed contain x like that.
23:29:49 <kerlo> What are the special cases?
23:30:47 <pikhq> ehird: A well-written assembly program can at least match the C program. ;)
23:31:03 <ais523> kerlo: I don't know off by heart
23:31:10 <ehird> pikhq: Unlikely. Modern CPUs are insane.
23:31:18 <ehird> well, maybe it can beat gcc
23:31:19 <ais523> I don't know Esperanto, so I've never bothered to learn how to write in the Esperanto Wikipedia
23:31:22 <ehird> gcc isn't the best at optimizing...
23:31:38 <ais523> but I think it's to do with cases where you actually want an x, and with capital letters
23:31:52 <ehird> pikhq: "well-written" probably comes to "identical to the compiler's output".
23:31:59 <pikhq> The CPU being insanely good has *nothing* to do with how fast assembly is compared to C.
23:32:13 <ais523> pikhq: CPUs nowadays are so complex that writing asm for them by hand is very fast
23:32:27 <ehird> pikhq: The only way to beat a good compiler is to generate the same code nowadays.
23:32:32 <pikhq> ais523: Well, yes.
23:32:34 <ehird> It's as simple as that
23:33:04 <pikhq> ehird: In some cases, the assembly programmer will generate better code.
23:33:08 <pikhq> (no optimiser is perfect)
23:33:18 <ehird> Very few nowadays I would imagine.
23:33:23 <ehird> And no human optimizer is perfect.
23:33:32 <pikhq> Obviously, in general, the assembly programmer will be, at best, generating equivalent code...
23:33:56 <ehird> are the microcode specs for modern cpus available?
23:34:02 <pikhq> Of course, all this is in response to someone claiming that there is no language as fast as C...
23:34:05 <ehird> you could improve an optimizer a lot with those, I imagine
23:34:09 <pikhq> Which, frankly, is dumb.
23:34:27 <ehird> if we're still coding C in 50 years I'll weep
23:34:42 <pikhq> Assembly is just the *obvious* language with similar performance.
23:35:01 <ehird> OCaml: 0.6 seconds interpreted, 0.3 seconds fully compiled.
23:35:03 <ehird> Java: 1 minute 20 seconds.
23:35:05 <ehird> Python: over 5 minutes."
23:35:08 <pikhq> Sorry, similar performance characteristics.
23:35:10 <ehird> OCaml is insanely fast. Wonder if you could get Haskell that fast.
23:36:36 <pikhq> It'd take a lot of work, but I bet you could.
23:36:50 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, there are C-competitive Haskell programs.
23:36:54 <pikhq> Also, I wonder how that Java program is when compiled to machine code.
23:37:05 <ehird> Put a bit of inlining hints, some strict-forcing bang-patterns.
23:37:08 <ais523> I wonder if asm is beatable?
23:37:16 <ehird> pikhq: he said that in a few years java took 0.7s with 1s startup time
23:37:19 <ais523> maybe by using undocumented machinecode opcodes that can't be generated from the asm?
23:37:24 <ais523> or by compiling straight to hardware?
23:37:29 <ehird> ais523: can you run microcode?
23:37:37 <ehird> if not by a supported way, via an exploit?
23:37:44 <pikhq> ais523: Theoretically, no. In practice? Possibly.
23:37:45 <ais523> ehird: no idea, it's certainly worth thinking about though
23:37:52 <ais523> I wasn't lying about going home, though
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23:38:24 <pikhq> If you assume a perfect assembly programmer, this hypothetical programmer will always be able to generate code that is at least as fast as its competition.
23:38:29 <pikhq> Of course, no man is perfect.
23:38:45 <ehird> If you assume a perfect assembly programmer, that there was the singularity.
23:39:00 <kerlo> In many cases, English is faster than any programming language.
23:39:15 <pikhq> kerlo: Not for computer execution.
23:39:41 <kerlo> I don't have to defend my point because I've forgotten what I meant by it.
23:39:49 <ehird> kerlo: Take any number of words on the command line; sum the ASCII digits of each one, then take the product and print it out.
23:40:06 <ehird> main = interact (show . product . map (sum . ord) . words)
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23:40:27 <ehird> Er, wait, that's invalid
23:40:31 <ehird> main = interact (show . product . map (sum . map ord) . words)
23:40:49 <ehird> Ah, you want a newline at the end of that
23:40:56 <ehird> main = interact ((++ "\n") . show . product . map (sum . map ord) . words)
23:41:05 <ehird> Shorter than the English and about as readable.
23:43:17 <pikhq> foreach $args i {incr ::sum [expr [join [split $i {}] "+"]]};puts $sum
23:43:28 <pikhq> (why doesn't Tcl have a builtin map?)
23:43:29 <ehird> pikhq: I can golf, also:
23:43:37 <oerjan> main = print . product . map (sum . map ord) . words =<< getContents
23:43:42 <ehird> main=interact$(++"\n").show.product.map(sum.map ord).words
23:44:48 <ehird> pikhq: that's not it
23:44:49 <ehird> you forgot the product
23:45:06 <ehird> ('h'+'e'+'l'+'l'+'o')*('w'+'o'+'r'+'l'+'d')
23:45:18 <pikhq> Oh. Well, then. Just a sec.
23:45:20 <ehird> So you have to do that shorter than main=interact$(++"\n").show.product.map(sum.map ord).words
23:45:47 <oerjan> main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=<<getContents
23:45:47 <pikhq> I'm trying to do it elegantly; sorry. ;)
23:46:17 <oerjan> since print includes show and ++"\n" automatically
23:46:21 <ehird> pikhq: good luck getting more elegant than main = print . product . map (sum . map ord) . words =<< getContents
23:46:29 <ehird> I wanted that at first
23:48:05 <ehird> GregorR: wtf is wrong with my/oerjan's code
23:48:15 <ehird> amusingly, it has NO foos and bars, it has no names
23:48:24 <ehird> I thought foobarf was barfing at my/oerjan's code :P
23:48:31 <pikhq> proc map {lambda x} {foreach $x i {lappend ret [apply {*}$lambda $i]}};puts [* {*}[map {{x} {+ {*}[split $i {}]]}
23:48:42 <ehird> pikhq: Now THAT's barf-worthy.
23:48:45 <pikhq> That'd be so much more shorter if I didn't have to implement map first.
23:48:59 <ehird> Even without the map, it'd take me a while to figure out even the algorithm from that.
23:49:02 <GregorR> I see there are no new FYB programs X-P
23:49:05 <ehird> I'm going to enroll #haskell to golf it :P
23:49:47 <pikhq> Fine, y'want golf?
23:49:57 <ehird> pikhq: Absolutely.
23:50:09 <ehird> Haskell, in its divine elegance, can stay beautiful and tiny at the same time.
23:50:15 <ehird> You have no chance to survive, make your Tcl.
23:50:31 <ehird> You think C will be shorter?
23:50:38 <ehird> We can defeat your follies.
23:51:37 <GregorR> If I'm allowed to define the programming language, than I can always write a program shorter and clearer than Haskell :P
23:52:01 <GregorR> Oh, you wrote 99 Bottles of Beer in 200 characters of Haskell? Well, I just wrote it in one character of HQ9+
23:52:02 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but we won't listen to you :-)
23:55:32 <oerjan> main=getContents>>= \c->print$product[sum$map ord w|w<-words c]
23:55:48 <ehird> on which planet is this shorter, oerjan?
23:55:53 <ehird> main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=<<getContents is shorter
23:56:00 <oerjan> i just wanted to write it out to check
23:56:05 <pikhq> i,c,d;main(a,char**b){(**b)?c*=main(a-1,b++)return;:while(*b[i],d+=*b[i++]);return d;}
23:56:18 <pikhq> And that's not quite right.
23:56:26 <ehird> pikhq: 31 characters extra to do it wrong fail :-)
23:56:32 <oerjan> since some of that mapping could be removed with a list comprehension
23:56:41 <ehird> see how awesome haskell is pikhq?
23:56:57 <pikhq> GregorR: Any way of getting command line arguments in Plof?
23:57:36 <ehird> pikhq: command line arguments?
23:57:40 <ehird> Sir, we use stdin.
23:57:44 <ehird> That's what the Haskell dose.
23:58:46 <oerjan> main=print.product.map(sum.map ord)=<<getArgs
23:58:53 <oerjan> except you need an import as well
23:59:01 <ehird> we need an import for Data.Char
23:59:06 <ehird> but let's just assume we don't
23:59:13 <ehird> because imports are silly
23:59:46 <oerjan> ord = fromEnum, type restricted
23:59:53 <ehird> that's longer, my son.
23:59:59 <ehird> other languages can ignore imports too
00:01:02 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, bow down to haskell
00:01:55 <pikhq> puts [* {*}[map {{x} {+ {*}[split $i {}]]}
00:02:03 <ehird> pikhq: Where does that read from stdin?
00:02:19 <pikhq> And you said command line, sir.
00:02:23 <ehird> main=print.product.map(sum.map ord).words=<<getContents
00:02:38 <oerjan> main=print.product.(sum.map ord<$>).words=<<getContents
00:02:40 <ehird> pikhq: i never said that btw
00:02:41 <pikhq> So, you're writing a program different from what you asked for.
00:02:49 <ehird> i didn't ask for that
00:02:53 <pikhq> 17:39 < ehird> kerlo: Take any number of words on the command line; sum the ASCII digits of each one, then take the product and print it out.
00:02:57 <oerjan> ehird: actually you did
00:03:04 <ehird> it was a simple thinko, kay?
00:03:11 <ehird> the haskell is longer with stdin than args, so it's not bias
00:03:23 <ehird> 00:02 oerjan: main=print.product.(sum.map ord<$>).words=<<getContents
00:03:30 <ehird> and another import
00:03:34 <oerjan> ehird: ^ if we can ignore imports, <$> could help
00:03:41 <ehird> it's the same length!
00:04:10 <pikhq> puts [* {*}[map {x} {+ {*}[split [read stdin] {}]}]] then
00:04:31 <ehird> pikhq: kay, I'm sure I can beat that
00:05:06 * pikhq hopes someone bothered sticking map in Tcl 8.6...
00:05:35 <ehird> % puts [* {*}[map {x} {+ {*}[split [read stdin] {}]}]]
00:05:35 <ehird> extra characters after close-brace
00:05:39 <ehird> pikhq: 'splain yourself
00:06:10 <pikhq> ehird: You're not using Tcl 8.5.
00:06:23 <ehird> what does it output when you give it
00:06:24 <pikhq> {*} and lambda were added in 8.5
00:06:43 <pikhq> Dunno; I'm not actually testing these. :p
00:07:13 <pikhq> Also, I myself don't have Tcl 8.5 for some reason.
00:07:38 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think it outputs for ab cd\n{EOF}?
00:07:45 <ehird> it should be 38805
00:08:55 <oerjan> any of the J connoiseurs want to try?
00:09:00 <ehird> pikhq: note that, if we allow omitting the main=, my fundamental code is smaller than yours
00:09:02 <ehird> oerjan: sure, I will
00:09:24 <ehird> oerjan: but j's support for shit like ascii codes is verbose
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00:09:37 <ehird> it has them though
00:09:44 <oerjan> because it probably pwns on the rest
00:10:55 <ehird> oerjan: well, not quite
00:11:01 <ehird> you can't have an array of arrays
00:11:09 <ehird> just a box-array of arrays or a 2d array
00:13:51 <ehird> oerjan: the basic algo:
00:13:52 <ehird> */+/2 2$97 98 99 100
00:14:12 <ehird> (2 2 $ a b c d = 2d array: first col a b second c d )
00:14:15 <ehird> (it's just a reshape)
00:15:15 <ehird> oerjan: i'll look up the foreign stuff
00:16:10 <ehird> (1!:1)3 is the contents of stdin
00:16:45 <ehird> i see nothing for splitting strings :-(
00:18:14 <ehird> oerjan: but (product.map sum) is */+/
00:19:16 <ehird> oerjan: which is odd, because
00:19:23 <ehird> v/ (v:verb) is v fold
00:19:36 <ehird> so it's */ (+/ foo)
00:19:51 <ehird> oerjan: here's the clever part
00:20:18 <ehird> then we fold * over it
00:20:30 <ehird> it's a consequence of using multi-d arrays; when we treat them as 1d arrays we get each row as a single element
00:20:33 <ehird> oerjan: clever, eh?
00:22:09 <ehird> and that's how using multi-d arrays and a nice commutative-in-every-which-way operation like + you can fold to map. Yo dawg.
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00:33:28 <ehird> we were just using folds to map
00:34:54 <Gracenotes> ohai, I'm going to a concert in 6 minutes
00:35:01 <oerjan> there is a way to do that in haskell too
00:35:15 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but only with + defined on lists
00:35:17 <oerjan> map f = foldr ((:).f) []
00:35:19 <ehird> to do vector addition
00:35:23 <ehird> mine's more general
00:35:29 <ehird> it's more specific
00:35:33 <ehird> Gracenotes: +/ in J can map
00:35:35 <ehird> even though it's (plus fold)
00:35:50 <ehird> if you give it a 2d array it treats it as 1d, and gets each row as an elemement
00:35:59 <ehird> [[97,98],[99,100]]
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00:36:19 <ehird> which is map sum [[97,98],[99,100]]
00:36:27 <Gracenotes> lifthrasiir: I am certainly aware of that
00:36:28 <ehird> thus, +/ serves the purpose of a map!
00:36:44 <ehird> it's not zipWith (+) at all
00:36:49 <ehird> it uses vector addition
00:37:00 <Gracenotes> right, an vector addition is zipWith (+)
00:37:07 <ehird> but with + it doesn't matter
00:37:11 <ehird> since we then */ it right away
00:37:13 <ehird> to take the product
00:37:17 <ehird> productofsums =: */+/
00:37:34 <ehird> THE MOAR YOU KNOW!
00:37:50 <Gracenotes> this J program calculates my tax returns: *:$%#@O$%:O*(*())^)))^%($@*!!$#:@{}$#!{#!!!
00:37:59 <Gracenotes> and one a few lines longer can simulate the universe
00:38:06 <ehird> J is awesome regardless.
00:38:33 <oerjan> Gracenotes: and if you make a typo the earth gets swallowed by a black hole?
00:39:29 <oerjan> of course that's one of wolfram's hypotheses, that the universe could be a short program
00:39:46 <Gracenotes> oerjan: no, a physics constant gets tweaked slightly, apparently making it impossible that life appear anywhere in the universe (saith a few supporting the anthropic principle)
00:39:50 <oerjan> (although i won't bet that he invented it ;D)
00:40:09 <ehird> oerjan: by omega point I meant "Either (a) we never simulate universes in the future, or (b) we are living in a simulated universe."
00:40:25 <ehird> which holds to a good probability assuming we have huge universe simulation orgies all the time
00:40:31 <GregorR> I remember that at some point in the not-too-distant past, Sun (now Oracle) made a backend for GCC that output C code ... does that still exist?
00:40:45 <Gracenotes> oerjan: randomly pointed joke! them creationists..
00:41:18 <ehird> Gracenotes: i hope...
00:41:20 <oerjan> ehird: i just thought of a third possibility, it could be that universe simulations are expensive enough that only a few are done. this could lead to p being neither 0 or 1
00:41:25 <ehird> Gracenotes: they have enough grace notes.
00:41:32 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, thus my next line
00:41:36 <ehird> what I said was a simplification
00:41:42 <ehird> Gracenotes: shut up
00:41:44 <ehird> Gracenotes: YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:41:48 <ehird> WHOAAAAAAAAAAHAHAA
00:42:32 -!- Gracenotes has set topic: Logarithms: <http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained.> | ~fin~.
00:43:16 <pikhq> GregorR: I want that backend...
00:43:32 <pikhq> I want to see how much it bloats arbitrary C code.\
00:43:55 <pikhq> Or, of course, arbitrary C++...
00:44:17 <oerjan> pikhq: and to check if iterations stabilize?
00:44:59 <GregorR> Well, the idea was that you'd compile it through GCC to get the features that only GCC supports, then compile it with Sun Proprietary So It Must Be Better C
00:45:33 <ehird> Ah yes, the psimbb C compiler.
00:45:52 <ehird> Often called "pis-shit-mb" by its disgruntled users.
00:49:40 <GregorR> I suspect that gccfss may be the new version of that ...
00:51:05 <GregorR> http://cooltools.sunsource.net/gcc/ // this compiles with GCC, then uses the Sun compiler as a backend ... but the only way this could be done legally is if the GCC compiler spit out something the Sun compiler can input (they can't be linked together), and what else could that be but C?
00:51:47 <ehird> GregorR: know anything about unionfs?
00:51:57 <GregorR> (I wouldn't suspect it was C except I /know/ they had a GCC hack to do that)
00:52:18 <pikhq> UnionFS is a hack that I'm rather fond of.
00:52:25 <ehird> GregorR: I'd like to put ~/.* ie dotfiles on my ssd; but leave the rest of ~ on my mechanical slowhd
00:52:28 <ehird> can unionfs do that
00:52:57 <ehird> i also want creating ~/.foo to put it on the ssd
00:53:01 <ehird> to avoid manual work
00:54:26 <pikhq> But to do that with UnionFS, except for create ~/.foo putting it on the SSD, just unionFS them together.
00:54:42 <ehird> pikhq: my other idea is to just have ~ be on the ssd, and keep ~/media/ on the mechanical HD; but media includes downloads and shit so I'd pretty much have ~/{.dotfiles,local(bin/,etc),media}
00:55:00 <GregorR> A friend of mine used my font in a program for a show he did X-D
00:55:04 <pikhq> With, I think, the SSD as the lower-level filesystem...
00:55:21 <pikhq> ehird: That other idea is easy. Nay, trivial.
00:55:32 <pikhq> mount the mechanical HD in ~/media/.
00:55:34 <ehird> Naturally; it's just mounting media
00:55:46 <pikhq> GregorR: Your font?
00:55:47 <ehird> pikhq: But don't you agree that having to type ~/media/src instead of ~/src is a bitch?
00:55:51 <ehird> It kind of defeats the point of ~.
00:56:02 <GregorR> pikhq: http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf
00:56:30 <ehird> pikhq: So, any ideas? It's rather complicated
00:57:20 <pikhq> Indeed, it is rather complicated.
00:57:35 <pikhq> UnionFSing it wouldn't be hard, except for the . files.
00:57:51 <ehird> pikhq: It's a consequence of unix being so stupid as to lump "OS-related data specific to the user" and "user's personal documents" together
00:58:09 <ehird> If we had e.g. /usr/ehird/etc/... and /usr/ehird/home, where HOME=/usr/ehird/home, this'd be trivial
00:59:24 <ehird> Ah, well. pikhq: if you think of anything, please /msg me.
01:05:14 * pikhq votes that we create a new distro for you
01:08:35 <oerjan> i thought he was already making hirdux?
01:12:03 <GregorR> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, gccfss converts things into Sun's internal IR then dumps that :(
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01:15:19 <GregorR> The output is practically C
01:16:37 <GregorR> I was just saying that Sun made a compiler that dumps C code from GCC, but have apparently abandoned that.
01:16:46 <GregorR> Then I discovered that the GCC -fdump-tree-gimple option /almost/ does that.
01:24:54 <pikhq> Uh, it seems to do nothing.
01:26:14 <pikhq> And what do you mean, "almost"? I'm seeing valid GNU C.
01:26:34 <GregorR> That must have been one insubstantial file you dumped :P
01:27:00 <GregorR> Surely you must have at least one variable named D.43243?
01:27:18 <pikhq> Yes... Very odd, but definitely valid.
01:28:23 <pikhq> You could almost make that C.
01:28:42 <pikhq> Erm. Almost? You could make that into C.
01:28:59 <GregorR> Try it for C++ too. It's a little bit farther, but still quite Cish.
01:30:37 <pikhq> It wouldn't take too much effort to make gcc output C, then.
01:32:38 <GregorR> I think I'll go hack up BF-Joust
01:33:41 * pikhq does -fdump-tree-all
01:33:58 <GregorR> pikhq: Enjoy your seventy files.
01:34:29 <pikhq> What can I say? I'm curious.
01:34:51 <pikhq> And the total is 129 files.
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01:37:49 <pikhq> And that's some interesting stuff.
01:49:13 <GregorR> Does anybody know how BF Joust Hill calculated its scores?
01:59:56 <GregorR> The scores in FYB are just number of wins minus number of losses *shrugs*
02:05:56 <psygnisfive> apparently the going price for Twitter is $700m
02:16:48 <GregorR> No, you get a special deal for 3.
02:16:55 <GregorR> That was the joke, never mind, bleh X-P
02:17:56 <GregorR> Heh, $100,000,000 is "slight" :P
02:33:58 <GregorR> Competitive Brainfuck (well, one form of it)
02:34:04 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README
02:36:18 <GregorR> Anyway, I registered #fyb because I'm trying to revitalize interest in FYB :P
02:36:53 <GregorR> (Which is TOTALLY not self-serving :P )
02:43:18 <psygnisfive> last night i had a thought about classifying esolangs
02:43:36 <GregorR> <psygnisfive> But only one.
02:43:58 <GregorR> Yeesh, my jokes really aren't landing in here recently.
02:48:38 <GregorR> Sgeo: Feel evil by writing some FYB :P
02:50:44 <Sgeo> I want to start a war between Agora and the Aerican Empire
02:51:00 <pikhq> I want to start the Aerican Empire.
02:51:41 <GregorR> I want to start a war between the Aerican Empire and the American Representative Republic.
02:52:16 <pikhq> And I want to make Agora sovereign.
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04:28:45 <GregorR> I wrote a new report program for FYB that has a fairer scoring system, outputs the score board in order, and is a hunk of extremely gross C code, and for some reason I can't even begin to fathom it works everywhere /except/ when it's running under EgoBot.
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04:33:15 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt : Even though waitpid actually does WAIT for the child process before complaining that there are none. WTF?
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04:39:53 <fizzie> "POSIX.1-2001 specifies that if the disposition of SIGCHLD is set to SIG_IGN -- then children that terminate do not become zombies *and a call to -- waitpid() will block until all children have terminated, and then fail with errno set to ECHILD*."
04:40:07 <fizzie> That's about the only case I can think of where waitpid would first wait, then return ECHILD.
04:42:05 <GregorR> Only of course I didn't set SIGCHLD to SIG_IGN, because that makes no sense :P
04:44:31 <GregorR> I just added signal(SIGCHLD, SIG_DFL) to the beginning of my program and it works.
04:44:46 <GregorR> Do you inherit signal state from your parent??
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04:45:02 <fizzie> I would guess so, yes. Since I can't see where else it could come from. :p
04:45:27 <GregorR> I thought it was always default. It doesn't make /too/ much sense to inherit it, since it's a set of pointers to programs in user code ...
04:45:43 <GregorR> But then, I guess you could inherit the ignored/not-ignored matrix.
04:47:00 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt Now THAT'S a pretty report :)
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04:55:33 <fizzie> GregorR: Well, you know, inheriting signal state on fork() makes sense since the function pointers and all are still valid; then POSIX exec() says that all signals have SIG_DFL disposition except those that were SIG_IGN in the calling process; with a special exception that in case of SIGCHLD, it is unspecified whether it's ignored or default-action in the new process.
04:56:11 <fizzie> So you had, in fact, a program with unspecified behaviour there.
04:56:22 <GregorR> fizzie: Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh :P
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05:00:07 <fizzie> (To clarify: it is unspecified in the case it was set to SIG_IGN; of course it's SIG_DFL if it was something else in the exec-caller.)
05:02:24 <GregorR> Anyway, it works now, and my scorecard is hypersexy.
05:03:45 <fizzie> I did a text-based report for that "introduction to AI" course tournament I ran, too; it was a bit less-than-sexy -- http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~htkallas/ai-2009.txt -- because I saved all the sexiness for the final HTMLized results page.
05:04:50 <GregorR> ASCII "Re", "Bl" and "Ti" aren't distinct enough IMHO
05:05:09 <pikhq> Ding dong, the witch is dead!
05:05:18 <pikhq> (SCO's going chapter 7)
05:05:58 <fizzie> The HTML version does colors: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/ -- come to think of it, that's not very friendly towards people with color-related vision issues.
05:08:00 <GregorR> pikhq: Sweet, that's better (for us) then chapter 11, right?
05:08:21 <pikhq> Chapter 7 means that the court sells off everything they own.
05:08:26 <fizzie> Sorting the rows/columns of the results matrix in order of score makes it have a rather pleasant distribution of colors, though.
05:08:27 <pikhq> And the company ceases to exist.
05:08:37 <fizzie> pikhq: So can you buy Linux for cheap from the court, then?
05:08:42 <GregorR> pikhq: Right, as opposed to chapter 11 which is "We're gonna try really hard not to! :("
05:09:09 <pikhq> GregorR: Chapter 11 means that the debtors and the company talk about how best for the company to get out of debt.
05:09:35 <pikhq> fizzie: I hope that someone buys SCO for the FSF. ;)
05:09:49 <pikhq> (or the OSDN; that'd work just as well, really)
05:10:22 <GregorR> pikhq: I love GCC's SCO message. It's something like "People have told us to remove SCO support as protest against SCO being douchebags, but they're such insignificant douchebags that it's not even worth the effort."
05:11:04 <GregorR> It's a little bit more lightly worded than that :P
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05:29:32 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES // can anybody understand this who isn't me?
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05:31:38 <pikhq> However, I have something to tell you.
05:31:53 <pikhq> I am you from a mirror universe where the average IQ is 50.
05:32:35 <GregorR> ........... I can't even begin to comprehend the implications of that statement :P
05:32:46 <pikhq> ... On second thought, nor can I.
05:32:54 <pikhq> It's 11:30, and I'm a tiny bit sick.
05:33:07 <pikhq> And that seemed clever at the time.
05:33:25 <pikhq> So, yeah. I can't even begin to comprehend the workings of my mind ATM.
05:33:41 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Well aware of it.
05:33:56 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Right, that was mainly what made it so confusing, is that since 100 is just arbitrary, that could mean any number of things :P
05:34:25 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I screw with your head.
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06:24:24 <GregorR> It's rare that a commercial shows people enjoying peanuts shortly before their (implied) grizzly death.
06:24:48 * Sgeo is reading My Immortal
06:25:04 <Sgeo> If I start acting like an imbicil, it's because MI drained me of my intellect
06:25:41 <GregorR> What sort of an imbicil would spell imbecile as imbicil? :P
06:40:01 <pikhq> I recently discovered that there are people who are incapable of changing the battery in their car.
06:40:19 <pikhq> I'm strongly considering changing my name to Wonko now.
06:42:57 <GregorR> But have you licked a car battery?
06:43:33 <GregorR> How would you describe the flavor of 9-volt-battery-with-leads-touched-to-tongue?
06:44:41 <GregorR> What a useless (and not particularly accurate) answer :P
06:44:48 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Tasted lead acid?
06:44:59 <psygnisfive> have you ever tasted a 9-volt before, gregorr?
06:45:20 <GregorR> A depleted one, so I'm really tasting it rather than tasting the effects of electricity on my tongue?
06:45:21 <pikhq> With that, I bid you guttennacht.
06:45:25 <GregorR> Ah, that's sort of different :P
06:45:56 <GregorR> I recall it being painful, but sweet.
06:46:17 <GregorR> Not really, it's not like food, it's just shocking your tongue, so I don't know if everybody tastes it the same :P
06:46:33 <GregorR> I definitely recall it as sweet.
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10:48:00 <lereah_> Any of you fellows know some ROOT?
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12:22:34 <lereah_> Let's say that I declared the object TH1F *h2 = new TH1F(stuff in it) in C++, how to DESTROY IT
12:23:56 <lifthrasiir> just destorying or deallocating allocated memory as well or doing something else?
12:25:10 <lereah_> Mostly that the program stop saying Warning in <TROOT::Append>: Replacing existing TH1
12:25:42 <lereah_> Or if you know how to empty an histogramme in ROOT, that could work too
12:26:25 <lifthrasiir> i have absolutely no idea on TROOT, as i don't know the context
12:26:44 <lereah_> Well, just destroy the object then you know
12:27:48 <lifthrasiir> i'm still unsure whether that question is any way related to esolang... anyway.
12:28:33 <lereah_> It's just the only chat I'm on with people who know coding
12:28:49 <lereah_> Also now I've got *** Break *** segmentation violation and a shitload of errors D:
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13:19:04 <fizzie> What you are doing is tasting the unearthly joys of manual memory management.
13:19:56 <fizzie> s/joys/delights/, that word fits better.
13:22:17 <ehird> I'm around now, offline bsmntbombdood.
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14:05:11 <ehird> "I have just uploaded Embedded GLIBC (EGLIBC) into the archive (it is currently waiting in the NEW queue), which will soon replace the GNU C Library (GLIBC). "
14:05:14 <ehird> Debian's switching libc!
14:05:19 <ehird> http://blog.aurel32.net/?p=47
14:05:46 <ehird> "And then, suddenly, Ulrich Drepper became irrelevant."
14:09:59 <tombom> hahaha those ulrich drepper bugs are incredible
14:10:16 <ehird> ------- Additional Comment #17 From Dave Houston 2008-07-07 05:05 [reply] -------
14:10:16 <ehird> Paid $1 via paypal. Trans ID 3H4989806A1962407
14:10:28 <ehird> (in reply to ulrich saying he wasn't paid by the reporters)
14:11:14 <tombom> hahaha yeah i just read that
14:11:47 <ehird> ------- Additional Comment #27 From Paul Wankadia 2008-07-08 04:48 [reply] -------
14:11:48 <ehird> I concur, Ulrich. This bug has been discussed to death and only the trolls are
14:11:50 <ehird> reopening it. If anyone wishes to "me too" this bug, please open a new bug.
14:11:54 <ehird> ------- Additional Comment #28 From Ulrich Drepper 2008-07-08 05:08 [reply] -------
14:13:30 <ehird> tombom: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4403
14:13:39 <ehird> if it's such a stupid joke why doesn't he remove the function :)
14:13:56 <ehird> "glibc is not meant for embedded crap and I'm not going to start adding
14:13:56 <ehird> work arounds for garbage like that."
14:14:08 <ehird> I hope that all embedded systems fail when Ulrich Drepper tries to use them forevermore.
14:16:21 <tombom> does anybody really consider that shit acceptable
14:16:54 <Deewiant> I mean, he /is/ allowed to do what he wants
14:16:55 <ehird> I bet eglibc X.org's glibc's Xfree86
14:17:00 <Deewiant> He just shouldn't be such an asshole about it ;-P
14:17:18 <ehird> Or egcs's its fsf-gcc2
14:33:46 <ehird> "The Pirate Party becomes the third biggest party in Sweden by membership count"
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15:18:39 <ehird> 15:17 dhfhdhdh: anyone reads tarot here
15:18:43 <ehird> (from just before you came in)
15:18:49 <ehird> yet another misinterpreter :^)
15:19:03 <ehird> it's funny because they're idiots, see
15:19:08 <pikhq> I don't read tarot, but I have played Shin Megami Tensei.
15:19:13 <ehird> pikhq: hey, dialup isn't in your hostname
15:19:21 <pikhq> (such a good series...)
15:19:23 <pikhq> ehird: I'm on satellite.
15:19:39 <ehird> pikhq: Heh. what speed?
15:19:58 <ehird> . o O ( I imagine you live on top of a mountain somewhere :-P )
15:20:23 <ehird> I used to think satellite internet was the fastest you could get when I was young and dumb. :-D
15:20:26 <ehird> pikhq: Beats dialup.
15:20:29 <pikhq> Not on top of a mountain; then I'd have better Internet.
15:21:17 <ehird> pikhq: It may be less taxing on your mental health to get the required infrastructure to be a DSL provider (not a lot, actually, IIRC) and use that :-P
15:21:31 <ehird> Bonus: I'm pretty sure it'd be really fucking fast.
15:22:04 <ehird> And, y'know. Impractical.
15:22:42 * pikhq is living with grandmother for cost reasons
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15:32:37 <ehird> md5("369df80") = 0x369df804185add9e156ea9d033950296
15:33:44 <pikhq> That's almost an md5 quine.
15:34:04 <ehird> yeah; finding a full one would take a while
15:34:12 <ehird> (17805635143236190248826092 years to try all md5s of the length of the hex output)
15:34:25 <ehird> http://www.elliottkember.com/kember_identity.html [turn off CSS if you want, that background/italic thing is fucking irritating]
15:40:41 <oerjan> http://echochamber.me/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=36233
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15:47:30 <ehird> oerjan: "Given that MD5 is considered to be Collision Free (weak and strong),"
15:47:40 <ehird> i calculated 50 md5 collisions for breakfast
15:48:22 <oerjan> also check out the linked older thread, i guess
15:48:57 <oerjan> ehird: and then you head breakfast at Milliways?
15:49:43 <oerjan> i was going to correct my grammar, but then i noticed a typo had already corrected it
15:50:04 <ehird> oerjan: um no that's still incorrect
15:50:14 <oerjan> i assume "head" is the correct time travel grammar
15:50:26 <pikhq> No hash algorithm has no collisions.
15:50:43 <ehird> oerjan: what did you think the grammar error was
15:51:06 <oerjan> "had" is obviously incorrect there
15:51:17 <pikhq> (except maybe that "Xor that string with some known string" algorithm? :p)
15:52:57 <oerjan> pikhq: the assumption is a hash has a length bound...
15:53:06 <oerjan> otherwise it would be useless as a hash
15:53:28 <pikhq> My point being that the only perfect hash is useless.
15:53:39 <pikhq> (exceptions for when you know the range of values that you'll be hashing)
15:54:10 <ehird> "Is there really a fake rapture coming or is it just disinformation to get people to think a fake rapture is coming so when the real one does everyone rejects it?"
15:54:11 <ehird> http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/fake-rapture.htm
15:54:36 <pikhq> ... How the fuck would you create a fake rapture?
15:54:39 <oerjan> ehird: you experiencing a fake rapture right now?
15:54:51 <ehird> pikhq: projecting it in to the air, say new agers
15:55:03 <ehird> images of aliens and shit, they project it on to the chemtrails
15:55:09 <ehird> ufos = testing the chemtrail projection system
15:55:17 <ehird> but that paragraph I pasted is amazing in its mind-breakage
15:55:58 <pikhq> I thought it was a matter of public record now that most of those UFO reports are military aircraft testing?
15:59:06 <GregorR> WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SULFUR!
15:59:45 <pikhq> Why must so many people be dumb about Revelations?
16:00:24 <oerjan> i just farted, that would be sulphur wouldn't it?
16:01:15 <ehird> pikhq: *Revelation
16:01:39 <ehird> And because to get to that point you already have to let down all your rational thinking and logical reasoning. 'Scalled religion.
16:02:43 <GregorR> I love how there are aliens AND Satan out to get us.
16:02:51 <ehird> Satan is an alien from the planet HELL.
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16:17:01 <ehird> GregorR: ...and he is ME!
16:17:18 <oerjan> we all suspected that.
16:17:25 <ehird> """Fake rapture = lie" is a lie to distract you" - just a lie" is the lie you have fallen for, GregorR.
16:17:33 <ehird> Death will be upon you!
16:17:44 <ehird> Unless you accept JEBUS2000(C)(R)(TM)(MONKEY)
16:17:47 <ehird> Which you must not!
16:17:56 <ehird> For I am Satan, and, uh, I'd like some market share, y'know?
16:18:12 <oerjan> and you cannot even cast a die to decide because gambling is the work of SATAN
16:18:32 <ehird> SO IS THINKING RATIONALLY
16:18:38 <ehird> THEREFORE EITHER YOU MUST
16:18:43 <ehird> (1) BLINDLY ACCEPT SATAN ON FAITH
16:18:47 <ehird> (2) THINK ABOUT IT THUS ACCEPTING SATAN
16:19:00 <ehird> AND DON'T THINK ABOUT THAT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO FALL PREY TO ME
16:19:28 * oerjan blindly ignores the question. again.
16:19:56 <ehird> oerjan: Aha, but blindly ignoring the world around you? That is no mark of Jesus! Well, um, okay, yes it is BUT by reading this sentence you've become confused and thus YOU ARE MINE.
16:20:16 <ehird> GregorR: I also purvey in contradictions, so you're mine too.
16:26:37 <ehird> 23:01:18 <oklopol> since if two objects are close, their balls don't really intersect
16:26:38 <ehird> 23:02:09 <oklopol> so basically, balls would take their shape from 1. how unique they are, or how far they are from others, and 2. their importance... the probability at which a certain object is described should grant it greater space
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16:58:34 <ehird> Deewiant: know anything about nvidia cards? I'm trying to work out what the rough ATI equivalent of a GeForce 9800 GT is.
16:59:23 <Deewiant> http://www.jathardware.com/2/video.html#lista
17:00:14 <ehird> Deewiant: So, "crap".
17:00:23 <ehird> Between the 4830 and 4770.
17:00:29 <ehird> I'll pass on that.
17:00:47 <Deewiant> It's better than my previous card :-P
17:01:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, but the only reason it's a contender against the 4850 is the better linux drivers.
17:02:37 <ehird> Deewiant: It'd probably help if I could read finish
17:03:34 <ehird> Okay, as I scroll down the price list the cards get shittier (as is to be expected.)
17:03:39 <ehird> So it looks like it's the 4850 for me.
17:04:13 <ehird> I wonder if ATI will come out with a 4890 X2. That would be ridiculously over the top.
17:09:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Know anything about the SanDisk 256GB SSD? I'm betting on "suck", but...
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17:15:52 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=704
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17:16:04 <ehird> Deewiant: That's not it.
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17:16:09 <ehird> Oh, you mean another thing.
17:16:16 <ehird> Hmm. It looks ridiculously expensive just looking at the picture.
17:16:22 <ehird> That is the look of a ridiculously expensive drive.
17:16:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Also crap, since I don't wanna rely on volatile memory for non-volatile data ;-)
17:17:31 <Deewiant> It does save the data when it's off :-P
17:17:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Holy shit @ that case.
17:17:38 <Deewiant> It's not just $1500 for 4GB >_<
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17:22:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft it only has 4GB :P
17:22:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Does anyone actually need that speed?
17:23:25 <ehird> Deewiant: critical servers do
17:23:31 <Deewiant> SSDs supposedly make your shit start up faster
17:23:33 <ehird> but not 300K iops speed
17:23:37 <Deewiant> I imagine that would speed it up 1000x beyond that
17:23:41 <ehird> Deewiant: but when you get that high, can you really tell?
17:23:59 <Deewiant> You can probably tell the difference between that and an SSD
17:24:12 <Deewiant> I mean, there's noticeable delay before opening stuff even on an SSD. On that, not necessarily.
17:25:25 <Deewiant> But really, it's like the current versions of cfunge vs. CCBI.
17:26:04 <Deewiant> If you're running Mycology, it doesn't matter whether it's 0.2 or 0.02 seconds. :-P
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17:48:40 <ehird> Deewiant: "SATA based SSD's usually run at 0.1ms, while PCI-E based SSD's usually run at 0.0ms. "
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17:49:59 <ehird> Deewiant: They actually have zero latency, literally.
17:50:02 <ehird> That's how amazing they are.
17:51:53 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227407 ← This is the most expensive memory you can get on newegg (save for a 16GB DDR2 kit from corsair)
18:00:42 <ehird> "irony, n: [Ulrich] The morale of this is that people will hopefully realize what a control freak and raging manic Stallman is."
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19:34:44 <GregorR> That final was /painfully/ easy.
19:34:48 <GregorR> Good friggin lord it was easy.
19:37:35 <ehird> It was so easy, it was hard!
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20:00:07 * ehird watches Parallels Desktop install DirectX 6
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20:08:59 <ais523> wow, I got quite a lot done last night actually
20:09:08 <ais523> I wrote a BF Joust (ais523-style rules) interpreter
20:09:13 <ais523> and tried out some example programs on it
20:09:19 <ehird> AAAAAARGH! This game needs the CD in the drive to work.
20:09:40 <ais523> ehird: which platform is the game intended for, and which platform are you trying to run it on?
20:09:48 <ais523> I agree it sucks, but it might suck even more depending on circumstances
20:09:49 <ehird> I'll take shitty DRM over HAVING A GODDAMN CD IN MY DRIVE ALL THE TIME
20:10:03 <ais523> requiring the CD /is/ a form of DRM, just a primitive one
20:10:07 <ehird> ais523: The game's for Windows, I'm running it on OS X via Parallels (in Coherence mode to try and help me forget that it's windows)
20:10:15 <ehird> and yeah, but I'd prefer rootkits to requiring the cd, srsly
20:10:32 <ais523> Windows users get all sorts of stupid tricks pulled on them when they try to play games
20:11:39 * ehird gives up, puts CD in
20:11:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Worms: Armageddon. A true classic.
20:12:05 <ehird> (Thus the installing of the ancient DirectX 6...)
20:12:20 <Deewiant> I seem to recall that I liked Worms 2 more, for some reason
20:12:34 <Deewiant> Maybe it was my frustration at getting stuck on the fourth level or so, while Worms 2 didn't have levels
20:12:43 <ais523> I'm pretty sure even Wine can manage that
20:12:53 <ehird> you need a hacked ddraw.dll though
20:12:59 <ehird> grr, it errored out
20:13:01 <Deewiant> Master of Orion 2 wants DirectX 2
20:13:12 <ehird> Deewiant: you don't have to do the levels in w:a
20:13:37 <ehird> wa caused an Access Violation (0xc0000005)
20:13:38 <ehird> in module wa.exe at 001b:0044f994.
20:13:39 <ehird> CyberShadow beta, version 3.6.29.0
20:13:42 <Deewiant> But I've equated W:A < W2 in my head
20:13:44 <ehird> Don't do that, W:A, 'kay?
20:13:58 <ehird> It dereferenced NULL.
20:14:07 <comex> also, ehird: later today I'm going to make it actually useful just sayin'
20:14:13 <ais523> I wonder why there was a anull there?
20:14:27 <ais523> and by extension, I wonder where it was?
20:14:29 <ehird> comex: consent to what
20:14:40 <ehird> I won't consent to that
20:14:52 <ehird> because bayes 2 isn't ready yet
20:15:11 <comex> don't care, it will be
20:15:18 <ehird> Will. Future tense.
20:15:48 <comex> oh well, bobthj's pledge cannot be terminated, so we'll do it next month if necessary
20:16:29 <ehird> http://www.macuser.de/forum/f105/worms-armageddon-parallels-286152/
20:16:32 <comex> go implement this shit www.randomhacks.net/articles/2007/03/03/smart-classification-with-haskell
20:17:43 <ehird> that doesn't work but oh well
20:20:38 <kerlo> GregorR: then take the next one up as well.
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20:44:52 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1414581
20:45:31 <ehird> the fix is apparently "turn off 3d acceleration for the vm"
20:45:37 <ais523> that's BF joust, me-style
20:45:41 <ehird> wow, wa.exe is just 4MB
20:46:14 <ais523> also, it allows a couple of abbreviations in input programs
20:46:22 <ais523> which expands to just pure BF, but it makes the programs a lot shorter
20:46:29 <ehird> apparently the vm already has directx
20:46:29 <ais523> (a)*5 is equivalent to aaaaa
20:46:33 <ehird> and installing it breaks it
20:46:46 <ais523> (a{b}c)%5 is equivalent to aaaaabccccc
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20:57:18 <ehird> Deewiant: do you happen to know how to uninstall directx?
20:57:27 <ehird> I suppose not, but you mentioned directx 6
20:58:12 <Deewiant> I mentioned DirectX 2, actually
20:58:55 <ehird> Oh, fuck my life I'll must remake the goddamn vm >_<
20:59:22 <ais523> oh, uninstalling is one of the things Windows does /really/ badly
21:00:24 <ehird> one day I'll solve virtualization issues. all of 'em.
21:02:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:02:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:02:45 <ehird> "Digg (finally) gets Facebook Connect integration"
21:04:08 <ehird> Facebook Connect serves the same purpose as OpenID except more locked down and vendor-specific.
21:04:18 <ehird> And, well, shittier in general.
21:04:36 <Deewiant> And Digg used to use OpenID but doesn't any longer, or you imply that it will not, or what?
21:05:10 <ehird> Deewiant: With such large sites integrating Facebook Connect (CNN, Digg, ...) OpenID's future adoption prospects seem very bleak.
21:07:05 <ehird> "Starting today, Mininova will use a content recognition system that detects and removes torrent files linking to copyright infringing files"
21:07:12 <ehird> (A lot of things are dying today...)
21:07:41 <Deewiant> I was wondering what would be left to download from mininova after all ”illegal” torrents are gone? Anyone have a clue?
21:07:51 <ehird> Deewiant: LINUX ISOS!
21:07:55 <ais523> SCO aren't technically dead yet
21:08:04 <Deewiant> Yes, I get all my LINUX ISOS from Mininova
21:08:09 <pikhq> Deewiant: Also, Star Trek New Voyages.
21:08:09 <ais523> and unfortunately, knowing SCO, they need to be more than technically dead before they'll shut up
21:08:32 <pikhq> Can't be too much longer, though.
21:08:53 <pikhq> Their offices will probably be auctioned off in a couple months.
21:09:07 <ehird> I wish something terrible-but-not-fatal would happen to the SCO people who keep pushing their shitty lawsuits.
21:09:36 <ais523> pikhq: who knows, maybe the bankruptsy will be dismissed rather than converted to chapter 7
21:09:39 <ais523> stranger things have happened
21:09:45 <ais523> maybe the judge will even hold it in 11 for some reason
21:10:06 <pikhq> Which would be horribly dumb. :/
21:10:51 <ais523> but enough weird things have happened in the SCO litigation already I'm not taking anything for granted
21:11:03 <ehird> heh, apparently the current SCO is full of mormon kooks
21:11:20 <ehird> utah's so ridiculously full of them...
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21:19:20 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:26:51 <ehird> bwahahahaha... I'm reading some 2005 logs of CakeProphet saying he's so happy he's going to be unschooled, is asexual and always will be, forever and ever. I seem to distinctly recall him talking about getting girls naked on webcam a year or two ago in #wikipedia. XD
21:26:58 <ehird> irc logs are such fun.
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21:30:20 <GregorR> <kerlo> GregorR: then take the next one up as well.
21:30:37 <ehird> The next one up, GregorR,
21:31:00 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
21:31:07 <comex> mininova's doing what?
21:31:13 <comex> I don't see anything on their site about it
21:31:25 <Deewiant> At the top, 'latest blog article'
21:31:27 <ehird> comex: see torrentfreak.com
21:31:32 <Deewiant> http://blog.mininova.org/articles/2009/05/06/torrent-removal-trial/
21:31:45 <kerlo> Congratulations, you've run out of math.
21:31:54 <comex> ehird: I looked there, top article is something about pirate party :p
21:40:40 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/esotope-bfc_comparison well, i'd thank you if you suggest more compilers worth including here.
21:40:55 <ais523> err, oh dear, looking at Esolang
21:41:09 <ais523> someone's written a language which is basically BASIC, except that you define commands by writing definitions of them in JS
21:41:19 <ais523> at least, they didn't specify JS, but that's what the language looks like
21:41:30 <ais523> also you can't redefine GOTO or END, presumably the author didn't figure a better way to do flow control
21:42:15 <ais523> lifthrasiir: fungot uses run-length coding
21:42:15 <fungot> ais523: " is it a nice way?" holding her hand on the top of his head.)
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21:45:55 <ais523> anyway, me-modified BF Joust seems to have three main strategies
21:46:19 <ais523> one is the aggressive one of running to the enemy flag and reducing it to 0
21:46:45 <ais523> the second involves guarding your own flag, trying to leave it at 0 for exactly one cycle so your opponent falls off the end
21:46:58 <ais523> and the third involves messing around slowly near your opponent's flag so a defensive opponent will self-destruct
21:47:29 <ais523> they stone-paper-scissorsise quite nicel
21:47:39 <ais523> but you can try multiple strategies in the same program
21:55:27 <fizzie> fungot uses run-length coding for +, - and <, but not >; that's reasonably uncommon.
21:55:28 <fungot> fizzie: advice for offby1 thanks, i'll read in it a sec. i can see " iood" there.
21:56:07 <ais523> but why is there a "iood" there?
21:57:14 <fizzie> A "iood" is a person I know, although he's changed nicknames since then. I think fungot's seeing into the past, or some such thing.
21:57:14 <fungot> fizzie: it is -much- more fun when they don't, they warn you about the contents of a string
21:57:34 <ais523> oh, I'd love to know the context of that
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22:01:21 <ais523> what comes before "it is -much- more fun when they don't"
22:01:24 <ais523> probably there isnt' a consistent context
22:01:33 <ais523> but it sounded like fungot was replying to someone
22:01:34 <fungot> ais523: ( ( flip) 5 10))
22:02:15 <ehird> I just had to uninstall the video drivers :P
22:02:43 <fizzie> ais523: It's from #scheme in 2005; here are five lines of context, such as it is.
22:02:47 <fizzie> [2005-03-30 09:16:52] < evoli> (who is Riastradh like?)
22:02:47 <fizzie> [2005-03-30 09:17:13] < evoli> must be the lobster guy?
22:02:47 <fizzie> [2005-03-30 09:17:47] < Riastradh> I really can't say that _I_ find any resemblance there with a...four-nosed lobster who poses as Jesus, Uncle Sam, some cowboy, a medic, or a lawyer...
22:02:47 <fizzie> [2005-03-30 09:18:04] * evoli sticks to the raging ancient prophet then
22:02:50 <fizzie> [2005-03-30 09:18:36] < evoli> it is -much- more fun when I have no idea who someone resembles in appearance :D
22:04:07 <fizzie> There is something about a "Zoidberg" in a "Futurama" (okay, I know what the latter thing is). That channel is not always so lucid either.
22:16:47 <ehird> "Vertical space is precious since if it's not wasted you can see more program in the terminal space, so don't waste it!"
22:18:00 <Deewiant> You say that like it's a bad thing
22:19:57 <ehird> Deewiant: also, plz delete your comment on that same article, I mean, internet people elsewhere = freaky, kay. :P
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22:33:30 <ais523> interesting defines...
22:36:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:51:48 <ais523> wow, debian's switching their libc to a fork of glibc, rather than the original
22:52:01 <ehird> a fork designed for embedded systems too
22:52:03 <ehird> I welcome the change
22:52:12 <ais523> well, a fork that doesn't involve Ulrich is probably the main reason
22:52:19 <ehird> pikhq: it works for non-embedded systems too
22:52:25 <ehird> and it isn't just embedded
22:52:27 <ehird> that was just the main goal
22:52:36 <pikhq> ehird: Linux libc 7 ahoy!
22:52:45 <ehird> pikhq: No, eglibc.
22:52:56 <ehird> Drepper fanboy :-P
22:53:11 <pikhq> No, I'm just joking about a libc fork.
22:53:42 <pikhq> Why else do you think that glibc 2 is libc.so.6? ;)
22:54:11 <oerjan> 13:30:37 <ehird> The next one up, GregorR,
22:54:12 <oerjan> 13:30:40 <ehird> is YOUR FACE.
22:54:24 <oerjan> that's when it gets scary.
22:55:48 <oerjan> i noted that the wp article on Ulrich Drepper mentioned nothing about his assholeness, apparently it once did but was removed as insufficiently sourced, i think
22:56:09 <oerjan> (inferring from the talk page)
22:56:52 <oerjan> and one comment suggested deleting the article as he wasn't really known for anything other than being an asshole :)
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23:33:41 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl
23:34:21 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo hello rot13
23:34:42 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for !
23:34:45 <ais523> we should add bfjoust, somehow
23:35:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:36:11 <oklopol> just finished a nice 8 hours reading streak
23:36:36 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
23:37:37 <EgoBot> daemons: !daemons. List running daemons.
23:38:07 <EgoBot> kill: !kill <name>. Kill a running daemon.
23:39:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:41:37 <GregorR> Daemons don't work right now ;P
23:41:39 <oerjan> !addinterp yodawg unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
23:41:41 <EgoBot> Interpreter yodawg installed.
23:42:47 <oerjan> !yodawg ``````````````.H.e.l.l.o.,. .w.o.r.l.d.!ri
23:43:11 <GregorR> Not hugely useful to install an interpreter for a language that's already supported :P
23:43:13 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bfbignum echo hello rot13 yodawg
23:43:37 * GregorR beats his head against 1l_a
23:45:11 <GregorR> I made a program that should (so far) output 01
23:45:16 <GregorR> But instead, it outputs nothing X_X
23:45:24 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
23:45:24 <GregorR> Errr, cancel that, it just doesn't output the 0.
23:45:25 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
23:45:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
23:45:47 <oerjan> !addinterp /// perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
23:45:47 <EgoBot> Interpreter ___ installed.
23:45:57 <EgoBot> Interpreter ___ deleted.
23:46:01 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
23:46:02 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
23:46:12 <oerjan> !slashes test/a/test/aaa
23:46:42 <GregorR> !addinterp /// bf +++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.+++.<.-------.>+.--.>+.
23:46:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter ___ installed.
23:46:58 <oerjan> does it copy the web page, or download it each time?
23:46:59 <EgoBot> Interpreter ___ deleted.
23:47:03 <GregorR> oerjan: It keeps it around.
23:47:22 <GregorR> That was the worst and most ambiguous way I could answer that X-P
23:47:25 <GregorR> It only downloads it once :P
23:47:33 <oerjan> not that i'm aware of having any web quota
23:48:55 <GregorR> The server for EgoBot does, but it's 120GB :P
23:50:35 <oerjan> !addinterp chiqrsx9p perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9p.pl
23:50:35 <EgoBot> Interpreter chiqrsx9p installed.
23:53:14 <GregorR> Does that take the program as input?
23:54:49 <oerjan> !perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9p.pl
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23:55:13 <oerjan> it doesn't give me any error either :(
23:55:26 <oerjan> oh wait that's not an error
23:55:47 <oerjan> the empty program is a quine :D
23:56:00 <oerjan> but no error on the defined interp
23:56:13 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for perl!
23:56:23 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
23:56:30 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for info!
23:56:35 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
23:57:02 <GregorR> I guess I should add ", or use addinterp"
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00:00:16 <oerjan> btw chiqrsx9+ _may_ take a file name.
00:02:03 <GregorR> It doesn't put anything else on the command line *shrugs*
00:03:21 <EgoBot> Interpreter chiqrsx9p deleted.
00:04:26 <oerjan> !addinterp chiqrsx9p perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/chiqrsx9+.pl
00:04:27 <EgoBot> Interpreter chiqrsx9p installed.
00:04:35 -!- okloduk has joined.
00:04:47 <pikhq> Is that HQ9+ improved?
00:05:03 <EgoBot> Deep recursion on subroutine "main::interpret" at /tmp/input.25214 line 56, <STDIN> line 1.
00:05:11 <oerjan> GregorR: addinterp needs to tell when the URL doesn't exist ;D
00:05:44 <pikhq> WTF do c, r, and s do?
00:06:15 <oerjan> c is cat, r is rot13, s is sort
00:07:45 <oerjan> works fine, although only i see most lines
00:08:08 * pikhq thinks it needs ski
00:09:00 <oerjan> oh wait the sort is line based
00:09:14 <oerjan> not too useful on irc :D
00:09:31 <oerjan> pikhq: ski would be against the spirit of it
00:09:49 <pikhq> Ski that can't take s or k as arguments?
00:09:51 <GregorR> WTF, 1l_a_mmi REFUSES to output a 0 >_<
00:10:16 <pikhq> So, khq would be valid, but skkh wouldn't. ;)
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00:26:23 <GregorR> I made a "language" called 1l_butnot to help me write 1l_a code :P
00:26:41 <GregorR> It's 1D, but has only >, <, [] and {} ({} is a loop-while-0)
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00:27:00 <GregorR> I think I need to restrict it a bit more though, because I'm ending up having to add in a bunch of weird code to make it do what I want :P
00:27:10 -!- puzzlet has joined.
00:28:04 <GregorR> (Oh, and it's bitwise :P )
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01:32:53 <GregorR> Whoot, I have 1l_a outputting 010 :P
01:59:22 * GregorR is meticulously and by-hand converting his 1l_butnot code into 1l_a :P
02:01:20 <GregorR> YAY, I printed an 'H' in 1l_a 8-D
02:03:10 <GregorR> (In 1l_a, that's something to be proud of :P )
02:06:07 <oerjan> so you'll get to the d sometime next week?
02:06:50 <psygnisfive> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=saint-louis-du-ha!+ha!&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=37.735377,54.316406&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=11&iwloc=A
02:07:36 <GregorR> Maaaaan, Canada gets the funny versions of our cities :(
02:11:14 <psygnisfive> why is it that when i do a google image search for "laughing frenchman" i get images of horses
02:11:45 <GregorR> psygnisfive: What did you expect?
02:11:54 <GregorR> (haw haw haw we Americans hate ze Franch)
02:13:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho!
02:15:25 <pikhq> Not sure why I hit Ctrl-R, anyways.
02:16:16 <oerjan> psygnisfive is out of control
02:18:24 <oerjan> huh, i didn't know irssi was that dominant, about half the VERSION responses were from it
02:18:38 <pikhq> Well, irssi is awesome.
02:20:19 <oerjan> um, the capital R's are mirrored as well
02:21:02 <oerjan> psygnisfive: in the logs they show as mirrored (also rotated upside down)
02:21:29 <oerjan> the upper case ones, not the lower case ones
02:21:33 <psygnisfive> which i guess is mirrored along the horizontal axis
02:21:36 <oerjan> oh they're all upside down
02:21:47 <psygnisfive> the lowercase r's are vertically and horizontally mirrored
02:22:17 <oerjan> the upper case are only vertically flipped
02:26:06 <psygnisfive> the first is a decent approximation of english r's, the second of parisian and munichian r's
02:27:36 <oerjan> i was suddenly wondering if there was something about parisian and munichian ortography i wasn't aware of
02:47:27 <GregorR> psygnisfive: Which English 'r'?
02:48:07 <GregorR> psygnisfive: American English's schwer isn't the same as the consonant 'r'.
02:48:21 <psygnisfive> consonant r. schwar is a rhotic vowel, not r.
02:48:33 <GregorR> Schwer is a rhotic vowel spelled 'r' :P
02:48:41 <GregorR> (With any vowel before that)
02:48:48 <GregorR> (Well, really just 'u' or 'e')
02:51:04 <GregorR> psygnisfive: It's not simply any V+/r/ sequence, but in American English many of them are. (quoth wikipedia:) standard, dinner, Lincolnshire, editor, measure, martyr
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02:51:24 <GregorR> (I love that that includes every vowel :P )
02:51:52 <psygnisfive> theyre all written with different letters, but thats completely irrelevant.
02:52:00 <GregorR> Yes. And that vowel is a schwer.
02:52:02 <psygnisfive> theres only one vowel represented in those words.
02:52:30 <psygnisfive> and its the schwa+r sequence, in a single syllable, and not across syllable boundaries, which becomes schwar
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02:53:40 <GregorR> I have no idea what you're trying to argue, because what I'm trying to argue is that saying that something is pronounced like English 'r' is ambiguous because it could be the consonant 'r' or a schwer, and what you just said seems to agree with that.
02:54:09 <GregorR> Oh, or are you saying that you would have said "er" if you meant schwer or something...
02:54:21 <psygnisfive> english r is pronounced lik english r. schwar is not an english r. its a separate sound that results from phonological processes
02:55:13 <psygnisfive> and it only arrises in place of an underlying /@r\/. its not, in itself, a way of pronouncing /r\/, but rather a way of pronouncing /@r\/
02:56:16 <GregorR> This seems like a silly argument :P
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04:22:26 <GregorR> I'm starting to un-suspect that 1l_a is T.C.
04:22:47 <GregorR> I think that making practical loops may be impossible.
04:30:57 <GregorR> How (if possible) do you put underscores in the titles of Mediawiki pages?
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04:49:53 <GregorR> BTW, what do people use to edit programs in 2D languages?
04:50:35 <GregorR> I'm using oocalc. It works surprisingly well, and can even save without needing any further modifications to get it in the target form if you know how to ask it right, but it's a bit of a PITA because you can't just type, you have to press an arrow after every key.
04:50:46 <GregorR> I don't suppose somebody's written an editor?
04:53:36 <oerjan> it's been a while, but i think i used vim with the virtualedit option
04:55:08 <oerjan> hm that doesn't help with writing in other directions though...
04:57:48 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i may even have tried emacs for it
05:23:16 <GregorR> Yeah, that's not bad ... I think I prefer oocalc by a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit.
05:46:46 <oerjan> GregorR: i think the emacs thing was called picture mode or something, and did allow for writing in other directions
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06:20:21 <GregorR> One other very nice feature of using oocalc is that, since it's a spreadsheet, I can really trivially copy 2D areas. Can presumably do that in emacs too?
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08:48:51 <lereah_> The number of people dying is determined by the Fermi-Dirac distribution
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10:04:44 <lereah_> Madre de dios, es el Dong!
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14:58:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what did you want me for yesterday/day before?
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15:22:35 <ehird> 3d realms shut down
15:22:38 <ehird> Duke Nukem Forever is over
15:23:49 <Sgeo> That reminds me, even though Free Realms looks like junk, I should try it
15:26:04 <ehird> "Poor developers got screwed over. They coded the whole thing in Arc before an implementation was released, then Paul Graham pulled a stunt and released a set of MzScheme macros instead of the auto-vectorizing native code compiler he promised them." —Slava Pestov
15:28:01 <ehird> Sgeo: on Duke Nukem Forever in response to 3D Realms shutting down
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15:49:50 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ihf5/3d_realms_shuts_down_no_duke_nukem_ever_forever/c09e6or
15:49:53 <ehird> Please let that bullshit be true.
15:52:00 <ehird> http://duke.a-13.net/?080907
15:52:12 <ehird> Things done during the development of duke nukem forever
15:52:16 <ehird> and bonus: things that took shorter.
15:52:23 <ehird> Asztal: could have been registered just to post that :p
15:52:32 <ehird> i mean, by a real ex-employee, highly doubtful though
15:52:36 <ehird> but I fucking want it to be true
15:52:41 <Sgeo> Um, that site mentions a twitter user, but doesn't link to it
15:52:58 <ehird> Sgeo: 'hodapp' is a link, retardo :P
15:53:05 <ehird> it links to twitter.com
15:53:12 <pikhq> The freaking *Beatles* took less time than Duke. :)
15:53:15 <ehird> Sgeo: just above, though: Updated by Eli Hodapp - http://twitter.com/hodapp - http://a-13.net/ - Last Edit: 5/06/09
15:53:27 <ehird> pikhq: the beatles weren't especially long lived...
15:53:39 <Sgeo> But still, having @hodapp link to twitter.com is braindead
15:53:51 <ehird> pikhq: the rolling stones have lasted 47 years so far...
15:53:56 <ehird> Sgeo: or an honest mistake zomg
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15:57:32 <ehird> i totally didn't give a shit about dnf until that recent 15-second-or-so gameplay video, that thing just looked amazing
15:58:16 <pikhq> ehird: True. However, the Beatles had a very innovative and, well, *filled* career.
15:58:24 <pikhq> Fine, for something more stunning.
15:58:31 <pikhq> *Project Manhattan* took less time.
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15:59:00 <ehird> It'd be hard to even get it going elsewhere; nobody would fund it or buy it
15:59:26 <oerjan> project manhattan actually needed to get finished first...
15:59:42 <ehird> Project Manhattan was the name of a duke nukem game
15:59:58 <ehird> he meant the nuclear shit
16:00:01 <ehird> but it was a duke game too
16:00:04 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nukem:_Manhattan_Project
16:15:27 <ehird> http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time ← hahaha
16:19:27 * ehird starts the Bailout 3D Realms Party
16:20:11 <oerjan> but is that the fake rapture or the real one?
16:24:08 <fungot> BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB ...too much output!
16:31:24 <ehird> lawl, dumb redditors responding to me with the same tired, broken anti-piracy arguments
16:31:37 <ehird> i replied to one and was going to bother with the others but then I realised I don't give a shit <:)
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16:39:38 <ehird> http://blog.interop.com/blog/2009/05/06/the-father-of-the-crc-passes-away/
16:42:06 <ais523> wow, for ages my keyboard wasn't working for anything but MouseKeys
16:42:13 <ais523> but it's started working again, it seems
16:46:21 * ehird starts W:A in VM. Let's see if I can't pass grenade training this time.
16:48:33 <ehird> Bah, only got the first one. As usual.
16:48:38 <ehird> Sgeo: indeed, 'tis the awesome
16:48:52 <Sgeo> ehird, we agree on something? *gasp*
16:50:41 <ais523> Sgeo: do you disagree with AnMaster on anything?
16:51:07 <Sgeo> I don't remember ever agreeing or disagreeing with AnMaster on anything
16:51:54 <ehird> It's funny, W:A in this 512MB-of-RAM VM running a full virtualized Windows is as fast as on my real pc
16:54:49 <Sgeo> Ugh, I don't know if I should go to school today
16:55:28 <Sgeo> On the one hand, the only thing that the class is today is finding out if I passed or failed, which I may or may not be able to find out via email
16:55:44 <Sgeo> On the other hand, there are girls at the pizza place on the way home that I might not see again
16:56:30 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb fyb.orig help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
16:56:55 <ais523> why do EgoBot commands not tab-complete?
16:56:57 <ais523> it would be really useful...
16:57:03 <AnMaster> ais523, make your client do it
16:58:24 <Sgeo> !chiqrsx9p xgibberish
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16:59:57 <oerjan> the x command is a _tiny_ bit hard to use, i fear
17:00:08 <ehird> it doesn't even make it TC
17:00:10 <ais523> nah, 1 in 256 of the time it's trivially easy
17:00:26 <oerjan> you could rerun it until it worked
17:01:03 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
17:01:14 <Sgeo> aww, it messages me the rest
17:01:23 <Sgeo> Instead of being an evil menace to the channel
17:01:49 <ehird> it should just do like lambdabot
17:01:55 <ehird> do the first few lines, then require a command to do more
17:01:57 <Sgeo> Ok, it's going a bit slowly
17:02:00 <ehird> thus if it floods it's your fault :)
17:02:32 <GregorR> Sgeo: It does exponential backoff, and only sends 8 messages. There is no way to get the full output.
17:02:34 <Deewiant> 99 bottles of beer * 2 seconds / bottle = over 3 minutes of spam via PRIVMSG
17:02:57 <Sgeo> It's slower than 2sec/bottle
17:03:25 <Deewiant> Meh, 2 seconds / line is the acceptable rate
17:03:39 <ehird> i forgot how amazing worms' music is
17:03:43 <GregorR> <GregorR> Sgeo: It does exponential backoff, and only sends 8 messages. There is no way to get the full output.
17:04:06 <Sgeo> It sent 5 messages, including the one to the channel
17:04:20 <ehird> and it'll send a few more
17:04:51 <GregorR> Nowait, I'm sorry, five messages, the last one is /eight/ seconds.
17:05:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: Your "acceptable" rate of drinking is 2 seconds / bottle? Rather hard-core.
17:05:44 <GregorR> Any slower and you're a cop-out.
17:05:45 <Deewiant> To be pedantic, I did not claim 2 seconds / bottle was acceptable
17:06:32 <ehird> actually i'm not sure it counts as music, more ambience
17:06:46 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:02 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:03 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:05 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:07 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:09 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:11 <ehird> !chiqrsx9p xprint "Hi!";
17:07:14 <ehird> by the birthday paradox, how many times do we have to do this>
17:07:15 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:07:15 <GregorR> ehird: Yes, very helpful of you.
17:07:28 <oerjan> birthday paradox doesn't apply
17:07:39 <ais523> nah, it's not birthday
17:07:58 <ais523> and no, oerjan, multiplying by 0.5 gives the expectation, which isn't what's wanted here
17:08:10 <ais523> for the median number of times, you have to multiply by approximately ln 2
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17:08:58 <GregorR> "-----###" looks more like a mace than a fly-swatter to me.
17:09:04 <GregorR> And a mace is a mean thing to swat somebody with.
17:09:58 <Sgeo> D&D style alignment system for nomics: Silly/Serious Lenient/Pedantic
17:10:25 <GregorR> Does "Silly/Pedantic" make sense?
17:10:41 <ais523> GregorR: yes, I've seen such nomics in the past
17:10:59 <GregorR> (I've generated 35 potential 26-letter pangrams, but they all include either "VFW" or "WV" >_<)
17:11:10 <oerjan> so is agora still at Serious/Pedantic?
17:11:21 <ehird> agora's serious/pedantic-with-handwaving
17:11:26 <ais523> in fact, it may be in a B-style crisis atm
17:11:29 <ais523> which is almost unprecedented
17:11:37 <ais523> because if it is a genuine crisis, ratification wouldn't have worked
17:11:43 * GregorR assumed that Sgeo was referring to participants, not the nomics themselves.
17:12:26 <oerjan> GregorR: i'd suggest doing the rarest letters first, since that gives fewest options
17:12:26 <GregorR> The participants can span the board and just sort of "average out" to something.
17:12:50 <GregorR> oerjan: A friend of mine suggested that, but I had already been running this for days, so now he's running that :P
17:12:51 <ehird> oerjan: the latest herald's report mentions that you're behind insane proposals
17:12:53 <ehird> will you marry me?
17:13:46 <oerjan> it was a silly proposal
17:14:01 <oerjan> insane proposals still exist?
17:14:26 <ehird> oerjan: did the map exist in your time?
17:15:13 <oerjan> there may have been a game something map-based
17:15:27 <ehird> oerjan: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt; first rule is the map
17:15:40 <ehird> it's not much of a rule, having no effect
17:17:20 <oerjan> ehird: that same silly week i also voted by phone
17:18:15 <oerjan> alas, i only hit steve's answering machine
17:19:08 <ehird> i only know steve from the spam scam
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17:20:31 <oerjan> that map is definitely from after my time
17:20:57 <ehird> i don't actually know when you left :P
17:22:23 <ehird> H. Distributor Steve gets a spam email to the lists. He edits it to include a without-objection rule amendment
17:22:26 <ehird> and lets it go on to the lists
17:22:34 <ehird> Everybody's spam filters ignore it
17:25:05 <ais523> GregorR: I didn't know you were a nomic fan
17:25:07 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, it is a bit of an abuse of office though
17:25:12 <ehird> ais523: does he have to be to appreciate that?
17:25:29 <ais523> not knowing X does not necessarily imply that X is true, though
17:25:47 <GregorR> I've never nomic'd because I think the whole thing is a waste of time, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them :P
17:26:03 <ehird> GregorR: dude you operate a site about choosing what hat you will wear
17:26:16 <ehird> and use a neural net to match colours
17:26:18 <GregorR> WARNING. WARNING. ABOVE STATEMENT WAS SARCASM
17:26:44 <GregorR> I /still/ want to find a group of people to play my card-game Nomic.
17:26:49 * ehird kills two worms in his first two turns by (1) fire punch (2) baseball bat into the sea. Yay.
17:26:56 <ehird> GregorR: make it playable online and you're on :-P
17:27:16 * ais523 vaguely advertises ##nomic
17:27:18 <GregorR> ehird: That would sort of kill it, as any change to the rules that deviates too much would require a rewrite of the engine >_>
17:27:25 * ehird vaguely disadvertises ##nomic
17:27:28 <ais523> which has been really active recently despite ehird's attempts
17:27:29 <Sgeo> ehird, that's why I set the Agora filters to not let emails from there go into spam
17:27:38 * GregorR vaguely vagueomits all over ##nomic
17:28:14 <Sgeo> Why does ehird hate ##nomic ?
17:28:20 <Sgeo> Not because I'm there, I hope
17:28:31 <ehird> one which is not on topic for #esoteric
17:28:38 <ehird> in case ais523 wants to but in with his own version of events ;-)
17:28:50 * ehird thinks of an esolang based on Worms.
17:28:59 <ehird> that would be quite hard to program in, I imagine
17:29:31 <ehird> you'd have worms which when you hit them with weapon X output a certain character, etc
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17:39:42 * AnMaster ponders writing an SQL database engine in befunge
17:40:22 <ehird> ais523: do you know any reason a background animation in an old game should speed up because you move your mouse?
17:40:33 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out how you do animation that leaves that oddity...
17:40:41 <ais523> ooh, I'm aware of the general principle
17:40:45 <ehird> maybe they're doing it every event?
17:40:52 <ehird> and setting a timer to trigger the event every N
17:40:52 <ais523> all sorts of things speed up if you move your mouse
17:40:56 <ehird> but your mouse moving triggers it
17:40:56 <ais523> and yes, it's generally based on event loops
17:41:13 <ais523> also to do with borken implementations of slowing down idle programs in a multitasking environment
17:41:23 <ais523> you move your mouse -> the program isn't idle -> it isn't slowed
17:41:24 <ehird> there should be a bit of hardware that just gives an event to the OS as fast as possible, evidently
17:42:43 <AnMaster> using SOCK to allow client(s) to connect.. hm
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17:53:08 <GregorR> There are now two programs written in 1L_a
17:54:01 <GregorR> Now, for a Boolfuck interpreter!
17:59:40 <Deewiant> Intel's phasing out the i7 940
17:59:50 <ehird> Nuthin' wrong with it.
18:00:04 <Deewiant> http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-42332-135.html
18:00:08 <ehird> Well fuck Intel :-P
18:00:14 <ehird> The 940 is a nice balance.
18:00:49 <GregorR> !boolfuck ;;;+;+;;+;+;+;+;+;+;;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;+;;;;+;+;;+;;;+;;+;+;+;;;;;;;+;+;;+;;;+;+;;;+;+;;;;+;+;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;;;+;;+;+;;+;;;+;+;;+;;+;+;+;;;;+;+;;;+;+;+;
18:00:50 <ehird> doesn't matter though
18:00:53 <ehird> if you have one, you have one
18:00:59 <ehird> Deewiant: do you use ecc memory btw?
18:01:05 <ehird> the i7 doesn't support it which is weird
18:01:34 <ehird> it doesn't really seem worth it
18:02:14 <AnMaster> what exactly does static mean in the context of C++...
18:02:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut?
18:02:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's overloaded even in C
18:02:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but not as much
18:02:45 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: they say that non-ecc has 1 bit error per gigabyte per month
18:02:59 <ehird> that's funny, my computer isn't crashing randomly due to bits being misplaced.
18:03:04 <Deewiant> It's even more overloaded in D
18:03:04 <ehird> are you sure that's not marketing talk from the ecc people :)
18:03:09 <ais523> a random misplaced bit generally has no effect anyway
18:03:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err... static == local to file in C? Can be used for functions and variables.
18:03:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, at global scope. At function scope, it means that a variable is global but visible only from there.
18:03:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> that's funny, my computer isn't crashing randomly due to bits being misplaced. <-- a lot of the time it will be in currently unused memory I suspect.
18:03:59 <ais523> ehird: because of all the bits that might flip in memory, only a small proportion of them generally have an effect on control flow
18:04:09 <ais523> many will be unused, or in an image or text
18:04:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah right true, don't use that a lot so didn't think of that.
18:04:12 <ais523> or loop counters in delays
18:04:20 <ehird> surely it can't be such a problem
18:04:23 <ehird> if they sell non-ecc memory
18:04:24 <ais523> tbh, even a random bitflip in an executable will be unlikely to do anything worse than making it crash
18:04:25 <ehird> and people are fine with it
18:04:47 <Deewiant> In D, we have: static variables, static constructors/destructors, static assert, static if, static import
18:04:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i've never used ecc memory and I've never had a problem at all
18:04:58 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: much less than once per month, most likely on a program that crashes more often than that for other reasons?
18:05:00 <ehird> I think the problems may be greatly exaggerated
18:05:11 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: what OS do you run?
18:05:12 <Deewiant> And stuff crashes more than once per month for me anyway.
18:05:15 <ehird> also, it slows down ram access a tiny bit :P
18:05:28 <Deewiant> If I get an additional crash due to not using ECC memory, I really won't notice.
18:05:35 <Deewiant> ehird: 2% is the usual figure IIRC.
18:05:47 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: write a program to md5sum 1 gb of randomly initialized memory and put it at nice 19 for a month
18:05:57 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: I write lots of programs, they crash all the time until I get them working properly
18:05:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't do that shit :P
18:06:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Any reason you can't introduce new keywords instead?
18:06:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Walter doesn't like doing that.
18:06:21 <ehird> is ECC memory really needed
18:06:29 <ehird> I can't think of one corruption I've had of memory
18:06:30 <Deewiant> I understand that doing it too much is bad, but I think static is too overloaded :-P
18:06:32 <ais523> anyway, the vast majority of memory used by an executable is in large malloced objects
18:06:46 <ais523> and bitflips there are unlikely to be particularly disastrous
18:06:53 <ais523> probably just cause one particular result to go haywire
18:06:58 <ais523> or a segfault, if it hits a pointer
18:07:15 <ehird> ais523: that sounds pretty bad to me
18:07:21 <ehird> OTOH that's never ever ever ever EVER happened to me
18:07:30 <ehird> and i'll bet it's never happened to most other people
18:07:35 <ehird> if it does, then non-ecc memory is a sham
18:07:52 <Deewiant> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8i77h/do_you_use_ecc_dram_why/
18:07:54 <ais523> ehird: what proportion of your memory do you normally use?
18:08:01 <ehird> Deewiant: that's where I got my question from
18:08:08 <ais523> this sort of thing would probably happen about once a decade
18:08:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure yes, you can run into issues with user named identifiers in some cases. But in most that interpretation doesn't make sense
18:08:22 <AnMaster> on the other hand I guess that makes the grammar even harder to parse...
18:08:43 <ehird> Deewiant: can you buy superfast ram with ecc, even?
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18:09:08 <ehird> Deewiant: as in "excessive like that ddr ssd" sort of fast :-)
18:09:42 <ehird> I wonder if xeon has any DISadvantages vs i7
18:09:44 <AnMaster> ehird, with enough money I bet you could develop such a thing
18:13:27 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-400.htm
18:13:42 <ehird> http://www.ramsan.com/products/ramsan-440.htm
18:13:50 <ehird> also that's not RAM :-P
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18:40:12 <GregorR> Bleh, Boolfuck is little-endian.
18:40:24 <GregorR> Is there a *fuck that's JUST bitwise brainfuck?
18:40:54 <GregorR> That is, the only change is removing - and + switches bits? Not little-endian like Boolfuck, not combining more operators like Bitchanger?
18:41:09 <Deewiant> It should take about 2 minutes to whip up Bitfuck :-P
18:41:34 <GregorR> Yeah, but I was hoping for one that already existed and already had a trivial translation from BF so I wouldn't have to do that first :P
18:41:36 <Deewiant> I.e. no, I don't know of one, but feel free to make one
18:42:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: It does the bits backwards. It's bit-wise little-endian.
18:42:16 <GregorR> AnMaster: Which makes no kind of sense X_X
18:42:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, big endian makes just as much sense.
18:43:17 <GregorR> When was the last time you wrote a binary number in little-endian order :P
18:43:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, well, bit-endianness usually isn't visible on most platforms. But for bytes... hm... half a month ago I think.
18:44:29 <AnMaster> It was when messing with inline asm and SSE.
18:45:12 <GregorR> OK, how about I go from this angle instead: 1L_a uses "big-endian" bitwise reads/writes, so writing a Boolfuck interpreter in it would suck because I'd have to buffer.
18:45:28 <AnMaster> I don't even know what 1L_a is
18:45:42 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/1L_a
18:46:29 <GregorR> I want to prove that it's T.C., although I'm not yet convinced that it is :P
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18:58:18 * ehird listens to Graue's noise to attempt to come to esozen
18:59:22 <ehird> I like this. I don't think I'm supposed to.
19:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, err... what is "esozen"
19:01:54 <ehird> http://oceanbase.org/data/files/music/Scrap%20Heap%20-%20Live%20at%20Electric%20Possible,%20Feb.%202009.mp3
19:01:59 <AnMaster> somehow I read it as "reason" on the first pass. I have no idea how that happened.
19:02:00 <ehird> recorded quietly, he sez.
19:02:08 <ehird> also, esozen is the exact opposite of reason
19:02:17 <ehird> it stands to esozen that it should be very similar in appearance
19:02:34 <ehird> AnMaster: creator and curator of esolangs.org
19:02:41 <ehird> aka catatonic purpoise
19:03:12 <ehird> It's not actively hostile, it just doesn't have melody.
19:03:17 <ehird> It's quite soothing
19:03:43 <ehird> Mostly a bit of bashing some stuff and a little not-that-whiney feedback.
19:03:47 <lifthrasiir> i'm tired of pattern matching in python and trying to write esotope-bfc in ocaml again, aww.
19:03:53 <ehird> lifthrasiir: HASKELL.
19:04:21 <ehird> Bah, but I want to write mine in haskell :P
19:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I only hear a few clicks?
19:04:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Turn the sound up (it's recorded quiet) and wait.
19:04:47 <ehird> I promise you it doesn't suddenly turn into white noise :P
19:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, or suddenly turn into high volume?
19:05:02 <lifthrasiir> at least i have written some more codes in ocaml than haskell, so... :p
19:05:07 * AnMaster wgets and imports into audio editor just in case
19:05:23 <ehird> i have better things to do than find noisy music that turns int o white noise just for you AnMaster :P
19:05:35 <lifthrasiir> anyway they both are not familiar to me, i indeed have to learn functional languages seriously.
19:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't need to be white noise to break eardrums. I have headphones so I'd prefer to be extra careful. I do want to be able to hear anything tomorrow too.
19:06:42 <ehird> goddamn, it's not loud, honestly
19:07:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 5-7 minutes?
19:07:14 <lifthrasiir> well i also have used prolog (not free software environment, btw) but i felt uncomfortable whenever i use it.
19:07:18 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:07:20 <ehird> prolog kind of sucks
19:07:28 <ehird> what i want is haskell+prolog syntax
19:07:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it sucks in a brilliant way?
19:08:25 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, talking about slowness. Link to your optimising compiler?
19:08:33 <AnMaster> I assume it is even better now
19:08:45 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
19:09:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how good is it at lostkingdom now
19:09:41 <AnMaster> ehird, audacity says 15 minutes..
19:09:55 <ehird> i was guesstimating.
19:10:27 <lifthrasiir> i was fixing some bugs and considering several corner cases so far. the main optimizer didn't see much progress.
19:11:08 <lifthrasiir> on the other hand i'm planning array optimization, but i'm not decided how to do yet.
19:11:20 * ehird gains esolightenment
19:12:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I listened to it for a bit. Not my type of, mu^Wno^Wperformance.
19:12:13 <ehird> I never claimed it was
19:12:18 <ehird> You're the one who brought it up :P
19:12:29 <ehird> Graue has like 10 releases of that kind of stuff
19:13:54 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you could remove those stores to cells right
19:14:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, plan to implement that?
19:14:13 <ehird> lifthrasiir: use fputs
19:14:17 <ehird> in case someone outputs %s
19:14:22 <ehird> (not puts, it gives a newline)
19:14:37 <lifthrasiir> ehird: well you're right. of course i escaped % properly ;)
19:14:43 <ehird> printf is slower! :-(
19:14:58 <Deewiant> You'd think puts(x) and fputs(x, stdout) are equivalent but no
19:15:00 <ehird> printf("Hello World!");
19:15:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well you could just turn it into fputs("Hello World!"); and drop those assignments before
19:15:02 <ehird> you don't need to write to p
19:15:04 <ehird> since they're never read
19:15:06 <ehird> trivial optimization
19:15:08 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah it pisses me off
19:15:10 <ehird> fputs("Hello World!")?
19:15:18 <Deewiant> ehird: GCC is quite clever enough to figure those out?
19:15:27 <ehird> Deewiant: GCC can figure a lot of shit out
19:15:33 <ehird> But clang also does array→variable conversion
19:15:34 <Deewiant> Assuming the resulting C code is put through an optimizing compiler I wouldn't bother
19:15:36 <ehird> So relying on just gcc is silly
19:15:37 <lifthrasiir> i also plans to do so but i think global optimizer is needed to do it efficiently
19:15:39 <ehird> Also, might as well be sure,.
19:16:00 <AnMaster> unsigned char m[30000], *p = m;
19:16:01 <Deewiant> ehird: My point being that any decent compiler should be able to see that it's not used.
19:16:10 <ehird> Deewiant: not worth relying on
19:16:14 <ehird> it's trivial to remove anyway
19:16:19 <Deewiant> Not necessarily, if it is trivial
19:16:22 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, allows optimiser to see it won't be used outside the single file
19:16:25 <Deewiant> But if it isn't, I wouldn't bother.
19:16:34 <AnMaster> it doesn't know that it is only one file yet. The linker does.
19:16:49 <AnMaster> of course you can tell the compiler that
19:17:09 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that is ad-hoc too, i really have to analyze how many cells are used.
19:17:12 <AnMaster> but usually that involves finding whatever switch the compiler use.
19:17:22 <lifthrasiir> for example, static unsigned char m[5], *p = m;... etc.
19:17:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, not decidable in the general case.
19:17:36 <ehird> nor are most optimizations
19:17:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: are you gonna make an auto-growing tape?
19:17:50 <ehird> e.g. let ,[a thousand >s] work
19:18:07 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: at least you know optimized hello world program won't use any memory cells.
19:18:22 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes. It will work for trivial programs
19:18:47 <AnMaster> in fact it will work for any "balanced loops only"-program
19:20:18 <AnMaster> and possibly for some with unbalanced ones (for example, you could potentially know what cell is set in this program: >>>,<<<[>].)
19:21:12 <AnMaster> in case you optimise [>] into a memchr() or similar anyway.
19:25:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I lie -- it does get really loud all of a sudden at one point.
19:25:06 <ehird> The applause at the end :P
19:25:24 <AnMaster> ehird, applause from people or from GM?
19:26:10 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: there are many cases such as [>>>>] (memory operation independent to p[0] here) [<<<<] in lostkng; my current concern is how to optimize them, as it is effectively an array operation.
19:26:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't remember instrument number, but GM and/or GM2 contains applause.
19:27:08 <lifthrasiir> i can optimize [>] into memchr(), but i cannot [>>] or [<]. nor i think using memchr is important optimization.
19:27:29 <ehird> [>>] is very common for th 1 elem 1 elem 1 elem 0 structur
19:27:51 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you can optimize [>>] to
19:28:07 <ehird> but I assume you do
19:28:50 <lifthrasiir> well of course we can use similare techniques used in memchr to [>>] or [>>>>]; but that's another story.
19:28:51 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you can do -=n for [<] [<<] and so on
19:29:20 <lifthrasiir> example in lostkng output: while (p[43] != 0) p -= 2;
19:29:22 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anyway memchr is _probably_ better than for (;*p; p++)
19:30:08 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you mean the (int*) way of reading shit?
19:30:15 <ehird> that sort of stuff
19:30:35 <AnMaster> since glibc memchr() is insanely optimised. Like strlen(), memchr() is made to search <machine word size> of bytes at once.
19:30:58 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: SIMD instructions are good for some thousand bytes... iirc.
19:31:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: am i wrong? my knowledge on x86 is quite limited. :S
19:32:14 <Deewiant> memchr just reads using using (unsigned long*)
19:32:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, SSE operands and registers are 128 bits wide.
19:32:44 <AnMaster> not sure you can do byte searching with it
19:33:04 <AnMaster> memcpy() and such definitely can use SSE to copy fast.
19:33:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, really? which SSE instructions would you use for it.
19:35:29 <bsmntbombdood> i think theres a compared packed bytes -> mask instruction
19:35:48 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, which SSE version?
19:36:45 <AnMaster> can't find anything like it in the AMD64 reference docs.
19:36:55 <bsmntbombdood> PCMPEQB, Compare packed bytes in mm/m64 and mm for equality.
19:39:07 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: as far as i know libc memchr() does similar thing, xoring current dword with (byte * 0x1010101) and find null byte in it.
19:39:12 <AnMaster> hm that could work. But testing if you hit any match would not be that trivial. Control flow + SSE doesn't match well.
19:39:40 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, err 0x1010101... don't you mean 0x101010101010101
19:40:13 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well actually it would be a machine sized word on my computer.
19:40:42 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i think that's a very reason that SIMD-based memchr is slower than original memchr for smaller cases.
19:40:48 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: load one register full of the byte you are looking for, the other with a portion of the string, then xorps, then use the bytes -> bitmask operation, then ffs
19:42:09 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, you need to store the result to temporary memory then
19:42:32 <AnMaster> afaik you can't easily find first set on an sse register directly
19:43:02 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, since my computer only has SSE3 that feels completely irrelevant to me :P
19:43:51 <lifthrasiir> bsmntbombdood: "Packed Compare Explicit Length Strings, Return Index"? does it work like repe/repne prefix?
19:43:55 <ehird> MORE REASON WHY THE i7s/XEONS ARE TOTALLY AWESOME <_<
19:44:16 <fizzie> SSE4.2 has a CRC32 opcode, that's also pretty funky.
19:44:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: with your new machine you can write hyper efficient code that nobody else can run! woohoo :-)
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19:44:49 <Deewiant> The newer Core 2s have SSE 4.1, the older ones have SSSE3, AMD's still at SSE3
19:44:55 <ehird> AnMaster: What's that do
19:45:05 <AnMaster> ehird, it's like SSE5 or something iirc
19:45:17 <ehird> INTEL FUCKS AMD SUCKS. I can't think of anything better to rhyme with sucks
19:45:18 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I will sell you 1 assembly knowledge for 1 proof of 1L_a-Turing-completeness.
19:45:25 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I think ABM was intel
19:45:31 <ehird> GregorR: STOP SELLING NON-SCARCE ASSETS BITCH
19:45:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I was talking to Deewiant :-P
19:45:43 <ehird> 19:44 Deewiant: The newer Core 2s have SSE 4.1, the older ones have SSSE3, AMD's still at SSE3
19:45:59 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:46:00 <Deewiant> AVX is Intel's and due in 2010
19:46:03 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: i think i remember seeing an ffs instruction on sse registers
19:46:07 <ehird> amd are adopting avx
19:46:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Doesn't ring a bell.
19:46:18 <ehird> Therefore avx is better qed
19:46:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is mentioned in man gcc for the -msse* section
19:46:39 <Deewiant> AMD are incorporating parts of AVX, to be exact.
19:46:52 <Deewiant> Intel may or may not incorporate parts of SSE5.
19:47:00 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, well that is irrelevant to me too.
19:47:19 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: it's not my fault you have an archaic proc
19:47:30 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, um. archaic is way older
19:47:38 <AnMaster> this is just "not last edition"
19:47:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dude, you use a P4
19:48:04 <ehird> unless your computer arrived already :P
19:48:34 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: newegg is slow, my order is "processing", whatever that means
19:48:55 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood: Here is how it is defined: archaic = PDP/11, very old = pentium3, old = pentium 4, early 64-bit sempron = not state-of-art but still rather new
19:48:56 <fizzie> It means they're using your computer.
19:49:03 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:49:05 <fizzie> "Hey, it's processing."
19:50:39 <Hiato> what's the best primality test? Bu that I mean which uses the least/lowest complexity time for the best probability?
19:50:52 <Deewiant> Your early 64-bit Sempron is slower than some Pentium 4s.
19:51:01 <bsmntbombdood> Hiato: it depends if you want deterministic or nondeterministic
19:52:34 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, "This pass is likely to change, since it depends on ad-hoc analysis currently. SSA-based optimizer is planned, but not yet implemented."?
19:52:40 <Hiato> bsmntbombdood: well, at this point, its pretty immaterial. I was looking at AKS, but I can't find a good implementation. The number I want to test is too massive for the standard trial division or elliptic methods
19:52:48 <ehird> PDP11 is more than archaic
19:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you call PDP11 then
19:53:08 <ehird> AnMaster: an abacus
19:53:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: mainly for constant & copy propagation and dead code elimination.
19:53:14 <Deewiant> ehird: What do you call an abacus
19:53:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that is technically incorrect.
19:53:25 <ehird> Deewiant: A collection of atoms
19:53:32 <lifthrasiir> current optimizer doesn't do any optimization across basic blocks
19:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you call a collection of atoms.
19:54:06 <Hiato> heh, well, the thing is I just wanna plug (3^797161-1)/2 into something and see what I get
19:54:08 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
19:54:31 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for fyb!
19:54:41 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for befunge98!
19:54:45 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README
19:55:00 <Deewiant> Oh right, that thing we played with yesterday :-P
19:55:38 <Hiato> bsmntbombdood: cool, will check
19:55:41 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt // Somebody tied with logicex-2 :P
19:55:42 <Deewiant> Hey, I beat everybody except you, w00t.
19:55:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about polyhedra loop optimisation?
19:56:37 <Hiato> awesome, will do, thanks
19:56:56 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's for distant future right now. heh. i didn't view any paper or articles on it yet.
19:57:06 <AnMaster> "One is to use two or more cells per item, where one is used for actual value, one is used to mark the boundary of array (for [>>] or variants), and others are scratch cell."
19:57:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, iirc ais bf backend to gcc used 5 cells
19:57:33 <ehird> 19:53 AnMaster: ehird, what do you call a collection of atoms.
19:57:37 <ehird> a collection of quarks
19:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and what do you call a collection of quarks? ;P
19:57:49 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: are you talking about brainfuck optimization?
19:58:02 <ehird> AnMaster: a collection of quarks
19:58:07 <ehird> Discrete space, bitch.
19:58:18 <lifthrasiir> bsmntbombdood: i'm making highly-optimizing brainfuck compiler for now. :)
19:58:30 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, no. I'm talking about optimising intercal of course... what do you think
19:59:06 <lifthrasiir> if you are interested, please visit http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
19:59:47 <AnMaster> read the page and the linked ones.
20:00:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, where is the "browse code" thing?
20:00:41 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, no browser there, only download info.
20:00:52 <ehird> it has a web viewer
20:01:02 <AnMaster> ehird, not clickable. Too much work ;P
20:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/
20:01:15 <ehird> http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/
20:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I could just select it in the browser and right click and select "open url in new tab"
20:04:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why all in one file btw?
20:05:00 <AnMaster> personally I would probably split emitter code into one file, loading code in one, and optimisation in one. Possibly several for different optimisation passes
20:06:33 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: since it is in heavy development i won't split them before its structure once stablized.
20:07:48 <lifthrasiir> and it turned out that current intermediate representation has many deficiencies
20:07:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, sure, but why does splitting into modules make that harder? You have the same interfaces between the classes anyway? Just easier to manage in the editor
20:08:15 <AnMaster> I assume your editor has no issues with having more than one file open at once of course
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20:09:09 <AnMaster> "structured into multiple private modules" does not imply "stable public API" to me...
20:09:31 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: for that, it was just borethsome and there is no other reason.
20:10:08 <AnMaster> huh. I find long files more bothersome than multiple files. :P
20:11:52 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it isn't hosted on google code
20:12:05 <lifthrasiir> i write many codes both for work and for fun, and i just don't think of quality for fun unless there are a ton of codes.
20:12:07 <AnMaster> but if you open the non-clicky link..
20:12:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, meh. I always try to think of quality when coding for fun ;P
20:12:39 <AnMaster> but then again I guess that is a matter of taste.
20:14:10 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: of course some quality is automatically achieved, but i'm not aiming at best quality ;)
20:15:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yer right.
20:15:19 <ehird> fastest, most direct
20:15:22 <lifthrasiir> i totally ignored that. thank you for pointing out.
20:15:26 <ehird> lifthrasiir: listen to the man GregorR ;-)
20:16:07 <GregorR> But buffering is bad and write is portable.
20:16:19 <ehird> ah, buffering plays with lostkng
20:16:31 <ehird> if you enable long descriptions you have to input something to get the first room description
20:16:33 <ehird> if you have buffering
20:16:36 <GregorR> And makes PSOX etc difficult.
20:19:17 <lifthrasiir> okay, it emits fwrite(stdout, "Hello World!", 12); now.
20:19:20 <bsmntbombdood> how good can a c compiler be at using the sse instructions?
20:19:30 <Deewiant> As good as a C compiler can be
20:20:01 <ehird> lifthrasiir: write(1)
20:20:24 <ehird> lifthrasiir: death to buffering! death to no speed!
20:20:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: as I said, buffering breaks shit
20:20:29 <bsmntbombdood> do not use the system call interface if you can avoid it
20:20:51 <ehird> why not just use write(2)
20:20:56 <ehird> and get some extra microspeed
20:21:05 <Deewiant> ehird: Death to buffering == death to speed, in some cases.
20:21:21 <Deewiant> write(2) isn't Windoze-compatible.
20:21:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but you have to not buffer.
20:21:32 <ehird> For LostKng and PSOX, for two examples
20:21:37 <ehird> Also, what GregorR said
20:21:44 <Deewiant> GregorR: Cygwin doesn't count.
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20:21:51 <GregorR> Deewiant: Windows has write(2)
20:22:28 <GregorR> Haven't you ever used MingW? :P
20:22:29 <ehird> SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS, lifthrasiir use write(2) :-P
20:23:01 <lifthrasiir> btw, is there any brainfuck compiler worth adding to Comparison page?
20:23:20 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ah, wait
20:23:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> if you enable long descriptions you have to input something to get the first room description
20:23:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: GregorR's EgoBF suite.
20:23:53 <ehird> lifthrasiir: And the two best interps: http://swapped.cc/bf/ http://mazonka.com/brainf/index.html
20:23:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, whenever you have a input command, do an fflush() first.
20:24:02 <AnMaster> then you can still allow buffering
20:24:11 <AnMaster> because it will flush before it waits for input
20:24:12 <ehird> wtf bsmntbombdood, be patient
20:24:15 <lifthrasiir> ehird: those are mentioned in the page already. ;)
20:24:18 <ehird> postage can take like a week in the uk
20:24:20 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ah, kay
20:24:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, this is what cfunge does btw.
20:24:22 <ehird> lifthrasiir: even egobf?
20:24:25 <ehird> it has a compiler, jit and interpreter
20:24:45 <Deewiant> GregorR: Yes, I have, but obviously I don't use POSIX functions with MinGW. :-P
20:25:07 <ais523> it used to be a pain getting stdin/stdout working on Windows
20:25:08 <Deewiant> Anyway, I see that it is in io.h.
20:25:12 <ais523> although allegedly, it's easier nowadays
20:25:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you canucks are so impatient. you are a canuck right
20:25:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: canadian
20:25:35 <Deewiant> So using write(2) isn't non-GCC-compliant unless you're careful to import the right thing.
20:25:40 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> btw, is there any brainfuck compiler worth adding to Comparison page? <-- don
20:26:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err i seem to remember you were
20:26:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: k, USians are so impatient
20:26:09 <GregorR> Deewiant: People use compilers other than GCC? Hyuk hyuk]
20:26:10 <lifthrasiir> since it didn't have any project page i assumed that is not public
20:26:24 <Deewiant> GregorR: You've used DMC yourself. :-P
20:26:41 <GregorR> Only to see how shitty and not-GCC it is!
20:26:55 <GregorR> I've also used wcc, pcc and tcc :P
20:26:57 <ehird> GCC is pretty the crap...
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20:27:13 <Deewiant> DMC will error out on #include <unistd.h> on Windows.
20:27:31 <ais523> with "can't find unistd.h"?
20:27:35 <Deewiant> #error "unistd.h is not for Windows use"
20:27:36 <ais523> or does it have a unistd.h with a #error in?
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20:28:00 <ais523> I love the way that the old Windows documentation used to have portability boxes in it
20:28:08 <ais523> saying which of the functions were POSIX-compatible
20:28:21 <ais523> the answer is, not really any of the useful ones, unless they were in the C standard as well
20:29:38 <ehird> Hmm, Linus uses Fedora
20:29:44 <ehird> I'd have thought he would be more of an LFS man
20:30:16 <ehird> Well, I agree, but he's a make-a-kernel guy.
20:30:19 <GregorR> He probably compiles his own kernel ;)
20:30:28 <ehird> I'd expect him to, say, build his own base and then use some distro's packages on top of it
20:30:29 <Deewiant> He programs low-level stuff, sure, but he's not much of a sysadmin.
20:32:46 <ehird> Damn, I just realised that I first tried Ubuntu w/ 5.10. That's ages ago :P
20:33:09 <GregorR> ehird: If the first three digits of the year are the same, it's not ages ago.
20:33:31 <Deewiant> I've used it since our school has it, but not otherwise.
20:33:40 <ehird> GregorR: I only started existing ten years before that release was made.
20:33:42 <ehird> So it's ages ago for me.
20:34:03 <ehird> My first linux distro was a crappy thing called PCLinuxOS; I don't remember why
20:34:16 <ais523> ehird: I thought PCLinuxOS was rather popular
20:34:19 <GregorR> ehird: Well geeze, is it MY fault you couldn't get off your butt and into existence?
20:34:21 <ais523> although not as popular as Ubuntu, of course
20:34:26 <ehird> The name is really cheesy.
20:34:33 <ehird> It's an operating system for your personal computer!
20:34:37 <GregorR> It's a Mandr{ake,iva} derivative.
20:34:38 <ehird> I never stuck with any of them 'til 2006, ofc, because of winmodem issues
20:35:31 <fizzie> "PCLinuxOS, often abbreviated as PCLOS" makes it sound like a yet another Common LISP object system.
20:36:08 <ehird> Pico Common Lisp Object System
20:36:10 <ehird> It's really minimalist!
20:36:10 <GregorR> The Perl Common LISP Object System :P
20:36:12 <ais523> Deewiant: anyway Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with a nicer interface, some dubious patches, a really rigid release schedule, and a rather lax attitude towards bug reports
20:36:30 <GregorR> <ais523> Deewiant: anyway Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with a nicer interface, some dubious patches, a really rigid release schedule, and a rather lax attitude towards bug reports // an excellent description
20:36:48 <fizzie> "Ubuntu is basically Debian, but with the core values sacrificed."
20:36:54 <lifthrasiir> but that doesn't made Debian obsolete. they just have different goals.
20:37:04 <ehird> fizzie: a bad interface is a core value of Debian?
20:37:07 <ehird> That explains *a lot*.
20:37:08 <ais523> more to the point, Ubuntu isn't a fork, just a patchset
20:39:23 <ehird> I'd like an Ubuntu without the dubious patches, without the non-free stuff by default, more upstream interaction, and less tampering with other people's software.
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20:39:40 <ehird> Debian gets the first two but doesn't have the nice interface and release schedule and shit
20:39:56 <ehird> And other distros are either source based, have a tiny community and thus aren't really very polished, ...
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20:40:08 <ehird> I'd probably be all over fedora core if it didn't use rpm.
20:40:22 <ais523> it's the dubious patches that give Ubuntu its interface niceness, though, mostly
20:40:38 <ehird> No, that's the "tampering with other people's software"
20:40:46 <ehird> Most of ubuntu's niceness can be done w/ separate packages
20:40:50 <ehird> like the notification system, etc
20:42:12 <ehird> So separate polish packages for a nicer interface + nice release schedule + FOSS only by default (according to DFSG more or less) + upstream interaction + doesn't patch other's software more than necessary + good, medium-to-large sized community = distro heaven.
20:42:14 <ehird> Doesn't exist though.
20:42:22 <ehird> Oh, and + nice package manager + that means not RPM.
20:42:37 <ehird> (Because Fedora seems to fulfill most of the rest, heh.)
20:42:57 <ais523> what in particular do you have against RPM, by the way?
20:43:06 <ais523> I've never used it, so I don't know why it's so hated, and I'm interested
20:43:13 <ehird> ais523: You cannot possibly imagine.
20:43:53 <ais523> no, that's why I'm asking
20:44:01 <ais523> it's got to be better than CPAN, surely?
20:44:19 <ehird> Imagine distilled hell as a package manager, with many things that should be bugs but are design decisions. Imagine it breaks shit wildly. Imagine a weeping child. Imagine Satan typecasted to a package manager. Imagine this. Imagine this. Imagine -- you're falling, oh god it's me, *I'm* falling, where am I, who am Imagine this.
20:44:33 <ehird> That's basically what using rpm is like.
20:44:48 <GregorR> I think that's a bit over the top :P
20:45:07 <ais523> I'm after technical info, not metaphors
20:45:20 <ehird> ais523: That WAS the technical info.
20:45:25 <ehird> Are you sure you want to hear the metaphors?
20:45:38 <ais523> ehird: I don't believe you
20:45:51 <GregorR> I have no idea what's better about .deb and pals, but I know that I've always had weird packaging issues on RPM-based distros and never on .deb-based distros. Not much of a technical detail, because I've never been able to distill particular issues, it's just always that way.
20:48:18 <AnMaster> personally I prefer source based ones. IME it works better when you are mixing stable and testing packages.
20:48:24 <AnMaster> and also better in many other cases
20:48:35 <ais523> well, source-based is slower
20:48:50 <ais523> I generally use binary for most things, but swap out to source-based for things I'm testing or modifying
20:49:02 <ais523> one thing I like about debs is you can mix source and binary without much trouble
20:49:06 <ehird> AnMaster: my apparent issue with the arch linux installer is that when it tries to update the package manager definitions I get a Transient resolver failure.
20:49:10 <ehird> ais523: checkinstall++
20:49:18 <AnMaster> ais523, not really: scenario: glibc 2.6 -> 2.7 upgrade, discover valgrind package is broken and needs to be recompiled against new glibc
20:49:28 <ais523> well, for two versions of Ubuntu in a row, now, there's an error in at whenever I run the package manager
20:49:31 <ais523> it's been reported for months
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20:49:35 <ais523> but they haven't fixed it yet
20:49:39 <AnMaster> a) file a bug and build a new binary package locally then install it
20:49:50 <AnMaster> b for source based, a for binary ones
20:49:58 <AnMaster> there I say source based ones are faster.
20:50:01 <ais523> AnMaster: pull updates, and find that it's been automatically rebuilt against the new glibc by the build farm
20:50:02 <ehird> AnMaster: you have clearly never used a binary package manager.
20:50:14 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to say a good one
20:50:32 <ehird> anything other than dpkg/apt is shit, and if you don't know what you're doing with dpkg/apt they're shit too.
20:50:43 <ehird> getting cosy with dpkg/apt = package manager heaven.
20:50:55 <ais523> dpkg and apt are actually a separation of powers
20:51:02 <ais523> dpkg is a package manager, apt manages repositories
20:51:02 <GregorR> Yay slackware .tar.gz packages!
20:51:07 <ais523> dpkg doesn't care where the packages come from
20:51:08 <GregorR> tar vzxf mypkg.tar.gz LAWL
20:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, getting cosy with any good package manager == heaven. That is true for portage and pacman at least
20:51:16 <ehird> GregorR: YOU FORGOT THE POST-INSTALL SCRIPT
20:51:19 <ais523> oh, and .debs are tar.gz too, just with a different extension
20:51:27 <ehird> AnMaster: not as good as dpkg/apt.
20:51:44 <AnMaster> ehird, only if you don't know what you are doing with portage and/or pacman :P
20:51:46 <GregorR> ais523: Actually they're three files in a .ar, one of which is data.tar.gz :P
20:51:49 <ais523> I'd say a good source-based package manager can be as good to use as a good binary-based manager
20:52:03 <ais523> and the diff file, and the dsc
20:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you totally ignored my example above
20:52:11 <ais523> just you get them unpacked if you use apt-get source
20:52:14 <ehird> Deewiant: it's not going on to a tape!
20:52:22 <ais523> that's for legal reasons, I think
20:52:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because ais523 covered it, and also dpkg/apt can handle BOTH SOURCE AND BINARY PACKAGES
20:52:27 <ehird> which you don't seem to have realised
20:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it needs the package manager to remember to rebuild valgrind and such, IME they often forget that
20:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe debian managed that somehow. Marking "must be rebuilt when dependency foo is updated in the y bit of x.y-patchlevel" or such could work.
20:53:47 <pikhq> ehird, dpkg/apt is not a very good source-based package manager.
20:53:49 <ais523> ehird: whenever anyone on Slashdot claims that open source program (insert name here) is really hard to compile, I grab the source package and dependencies and compile the source package to prove them wrong
20:53:58 <pikhq> It *is*, however, the best damned binary package manager.
20:54:04 <ehird> pikhq: it isn't the best, but it's the best binary package manager, and it does okay at doing source stuff
20:54:12 <ehird> so you can mix them without too much pain; binary works in most cases
20:54:12 <ais523> yes, as source-based you have to compile by hand
20:54:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what about nethack. That is one hard to compile IMO.
20:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster's only example was an edge case
20:54:21 <ehird> ais523: you can write a script to do that
20:54:29 <AnMaster> ais523, at least, for multi-user installs.
20:54:32 <ehird> but yeah, AnMaster's only example was an edgecase, and when doing source stuff with apt as an edge case it works
20:54:35 <pikhq> I'd say that either Portage or Ports is the best source-based package manager...
20:54:44 <ais523> but the assumption is that, if you got the source package, you probably wanted to modify before compiling
20:54:54 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I find that kind of stuff is rather common with rolling release.
20:55:05 <ehird> AnMaster: and you attribute this to everything but rolling release :)
20:55:33 <pikhq> Portage, of course, is a poor binary package manager. Mostly, its usage for binary packages is rolling out the same configuration to a bunch of systems.
20:55:52 <GregorR> FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHLE
20:55:59 <GregorR> This conversation never ends.
20:56:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, I find ports a bit bad at updates to packages like perl and python, where you need to rebuild various modules afterwards. Generally ports seems to work well but need more work (reading /usr/ports/UPDATING and so on)
20:56:08 <ehird> blame that other guy
20:56:25 <GregorR> Somebody write some FYB code! :P
20:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, non-rolling releases have lots and lots of other issues.
20:56:53 <pikhq> GregorR: I'll give you some credit here: Slackware is definitely the most *elegant* package management system. ;)
20:57:34 <GregorR> Somebody write some FYB code! D8<
20:57:34 <pikhq> There's something nice about "Well, it's just a tarball."
20:57:54 <GregorR> Somebody write some good FYB code :P
20:58:06 <AnMaster> ehird, like bumpy rides when it is time for major upgrades. A lot of work then. Personally I prefer to have the non-trivial upgrades spread out over the year, like one non-trivial package / month rather than 5 non-trivial ones at the same time.
20:58:07 <ais523> GregorR: you have to limit FYB program length
20:58:19 <ehird> click update manager, like you always do
20:58:24 <ehird> click upgrade on the "new distro!" thing
20:58:32 <ais523> because otherwise you can start with something like %?[%%%%%%%%%... 1000000 more no-ops here...%%]?
20:58:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well debian is better than ubuntu when it comes to that iirc.
20:58:44 <ehird> ubuntu's the best at easy distro upgrades
20:58:47 <GregorR> ais523: The best you can hope for is a tie with that.
20:58:58 <ais523> GregorR: you put the rest of your program at the end
20:59:03 <AnMaster> ehird, from what I heard from ais that seems not true.
20:59:09 <GregorR> ais523: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, 'struth.
20:59:15 <ais523> the point being that the other program needs to run a million > commands to reach your pointer
20:59:19 <GregorR> ais523: Maybe I should make nops not-typable.
20:59:23 <ehird> AnMaster: ais is, I fear, one of those people who breaks everything he touches.
20:59:51 <ais523> GregorR: either you should make all [] run at least once, or limit program length, really
21:00:01 <ais523> otherwise something similar could be done
21:00:23 <ais523> maybe you could do it INTERCAL-style, where [ abstains from everything up to and including the next ]
21:00:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well, maybe I'm one of them too. Thus I prefer a very robust system. One that is easy to mend when you broke it. One with less GUI abstractions, since I will always need to edit the text configs anyway sooner or later.
21:00:33 <ais523> actually, even that's speed-of-light movemetn
21:01:07 <ehird> I need to learn to not argue with people who only use the same arguments and who I already know are wrong ;-)
21:01:10 <ais523> fwiw, just starting with one million % without the loop would have a similar effect, just not as strongly
21:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, Gentoo is robust in my experience.
21:01:31 <ehird> AnMaster: see what I just said?
21:01:35 <ehird> Not interested, stfu.
21:01:46 <ais523> ehird: anyway, from what I've heard, Ubuntu distro upgrades work well, but Debian's work even better
21:01:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you say that every time you realise I won the discussion.
21:02:01 <ais523> I admit that only one out of four Ubuntu upgrades have gone smoothly for me
21:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I didn't
21:02:12 <ais523> but in at least one of those, and probably two, it was my fault
21:02:15 <ehird> stop reading a fuckin' conspiracy into everything
21:02:23 <ehird> you've said all your arguments, stop rallying your goddamn troops
21:02:31 <AnMaster> ehird, You can have a conspiracy with just a single person in it?
21:02:46 <ehird> only you could imagine such a thing, but it seems so.
21:03:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to be suggesting it. I never even considered the idea before.
21:03:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gentoo is actually not all that robust.
21:03:36 <pikhq> Gentoo is a distro that assumes you know what you're doing.
21:03:47 <pikhq> And if you don't, bad shit happens.
21:04:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes. But it is easy to mend if bad thing *does* happen.
21:04:03 <GregorR> No, LFS is a distroy that assumes you know what you're doing :P
21:04:20 <AnMaster> not that bad things happened since 2004 on gentoo to me.
21:04:20 <pikhq> (generally next time they do a major change, like XFree86 -> X.org or 2.4 -> 2.6)
21:04:28 <pikhq> GregorR: LFS is more so.
21:05:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, LFS is "follow the manual" then "realise the system is unmaintainable due to no easy way to upgrade" then a few days later "switch back to the gentoo install"
21:05:30 <ais523> incidentally, I've once before now built a Linux system via makefile
21:05:37 <ais523> it was a makefile that was full of wget
21:05:42 <ais523> basically, linux-from-scratch
21:05:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that exists already. ALFS iirc
21:05:58 <ais523> it got all the bits it used from their original websites
21:06:04 <ais523> the kernel from kernel.org, for instance
21:06:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: LFS is for learning, not for being your "real" distro.
21:06:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, and I have done LFS, HLFS, CLFS
21:06:41 <ais523> GregorR: why don't they make LFS more user-friendly, then
21:06:54 <ais523> so it does work as a real distro
21:07:04 <AnMaster> wasn't it the last stable version when I did it too
21:07:06 <ehird> the author of lfs uses it
21:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no single author of it
21:07:29 * AnMaster has been on the linux from scratch irc server
21:07:32 <ehird> there's the original author.
21:07:35 <GregorR> <AnMaster> They're all married.
21:08:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, care to explain that totally non-sequitur reply...
21:08:46 <GregorR> No, I'm tired of explaining my jokes :P
21:09:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, well since you directed it at me...
21:09:04 <ehird> GregorR: that's the harsh reality of AnMaster
21:09:14 <ehird> <foo> x isn't directing, it's impersonating.
21:09:31 <GregorR> Except when you're MAKING A FUCKING JOKE
21:09:47 <GregorR> <AnMaster> ehird, there is no single author of it <AnMaster> They're all married.
21:09:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, well since you impersonated me... What was the joke.
21:09:53 <GregorR> Because they're all MARRIED
21:09:56 * ehird rubs eyes, swigs whiskey ← don't do anmaster, kids
21:10:04 <ehird> it'll ruin your life
21:10:06 <GregorR> See how it's not funny when I have to explain it X_X
21:10:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, is this a reference to something?
21:10:25 <ehird> GregorR: let's go mad together
21:10:39 <ehird> ahahahahahaahahahaha
21:11:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Single" as in unmarried.
21:11:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah right. that meaning.
21:11:48 <ehird> GregorR: so, about that going mad
21:11:50 <ehird> I'm done, how about you?
21:12:01 <GregorR> ehird: I'm holding on to my sanity by thinking about eating breakfast for dinner.
21:12:19 <ehird> <GregorR> Furthermore, time is cyclic.
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21:12:57 <AnMaster> would be interesting with a cyclic universe
21:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well, if you invented some way to become immortal you could have fun the second time around.
21:14:09 <ehird> if time's cyclic, you'd do the exact same thing each time
21:14:14 <ehird> and the matter would be exactly the same
21:14:19 <ehird> thus you would not have any memories
21:14:30 <ehird> effectively you'd be a new person
21:14:33 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on cyclic in what way
21:14:36 <GregorR> ehird: Unless you were a living time paradox :)
21:14:41 <ehird> AnMaster: In the cyclic way.
21:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what if you could survive the end and pass through to the beginning next time around. Then you could use it as a time machine
21:15:39 <ehird> Then time is not cyclic.
21:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't make good sf...
21:16:10 <ehird> "Time is cyclic except when it's not."
21:16:31 <AnMaster> ehird, s/when it is not/when you reverse the polarity/
21:16:42 <AnMaster> there you have a perfect concept!
21:19:09 <fizzie> Hm; that's no fun: VirtualBox's "OSE" open-source edition doesn't support the SATA controller, according to their web page; but since the configuramator GUI still has a "enable additional controller" checkbox in the hard disks tab, and lets you attach things up to 30 SATA ports, so I thought maybe they enabled that feature in the open-source version too; but then it just gives a cryptic VERR_PDM_DEVICE_NOT_FOUND error when starting.
21:19:13 <ehird> Hey, Arch installed.
21:19:19 <ehird> fizzie: it works for me.
21:19:30 <ehird> Do I have the closed source one?
21:19:46 <fizzie> How should I know what you have? It's free-for-personal-use, though, so you might well have it.
21:20:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> How surprising. <-- why?
21:20:05 <ehird> fizzie: Use qemu/virtualbox's closed source one?
21:20:15 <ehird> AnMaster: It hasn't worked in two VMs previously?
21:20:47 <ehird> So you keep saying. No, it was Arch not supporting a part of the VM configuration.
21:21:01 <ehird> Although I suppose that's heretical to the Holy Church of Distro Perfectness.
21:21:10 <AnMaster> ehird, You haven't given enough details to debug the issue
21:21:20 <fizzie> I don't mind the lack of SATA controller so much (that I'd bother doing something that's not directly aptable), it's just that I don't like how they're giving me false hopes by making it available in the config screens, then crashing them down by not booting.
21:21:27 <ehird> I didn't ask anyone to debug it, AnMaster.
21:21:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you complained loudly though
21:21:59 <ehird> If by loudly you meant I mentioned I gave up on arch due to not working in a vm as a one-line remark.
21:22:15 <AnMaster> constructive feedback and details bug reports is more useful
21:22:30 <ehird> And I don't give a damn what you want me to do regarding Arch bugs.
21:24:08 <fizzie> And anyway the open-source edition supports a couple of SCSI controllers, so I can build this "going-to-be-transferred-on-a-real-hardware-where-the-HD-will-be-/dev/sda" thing without any device-naming differences.
21:25:10 <fizzie> Or maybe not. Strange. I thought it was supposed to do the SCSI controllers.
21:25:23 <ehird> fizzie: just use qemu
21:25:27 <ehird> it's slow but acurrate
21:27:13 <fizzie> I guess I could, but since I have it in the 'box already... did qemu happen to do the .vdi thing? Not that I couldn't just convert the image.
21:27:29 <ehird> Qemu uses .raw and .qcow, I think.
21:27:40 <GregorR> qemu supports tons of formats, but not .vdi
21:28:14 <GregorR> Supported format: nbd parallels qcow2 vvfat vpc bochs dmg cloop vmdk qcow cow host_device raw
21:28:35 <fizzie> Well, it's a fixed-size .vdi, so it's pretty much .raw with an offset; and "VBoxManage converthd --format RAW" should get rid of the offset, too.
21:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, so you recommend to not file any bugs to any projects, instead only complain in some totally unrelated irc channel and not report the issue at all
21:28:45 <fizzie> Er, clonehd, not converthd.
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21:30:10 <AnMaster> "open source editions" lacking most of the useful features are worse than "closed source, but no-cost" software IMO
21:30:19 <AnMaster> at least the latter doesn't pretend to be open
21:30:33 <fizzie> It doesn't really lack "most of the useful features"; it's pretty usable as-is.
21:30:37 <GregorR> Actually, VirtualBox OSE excludes only some spectacularly useless featuers.
21:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, lacking SCSI emulation is "lacking major feature" to me
21:31:14 <AnMaster> also what about forwarding serial port and usb devices?
21:31:17 <GregorR> Lacking emulation of a technology no one uses?
21:31:29 <AnMaster> oh wait, it can't do the latter in any edition iir
21:31:36 <AnMaster> not sure about forwarding serial and usb
21:31:45 <fizzie> GregorR: Lacking the possibility of using >3 HDs.
21:32:16 <fizzie> (Assuming the open-source edition doesn't do the SCSI controllers; I'm not quite sure about that.)
21:32:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it do serial and usb forwarding?
21:33:08 <AnMaster> http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Editions <-- seems like no
21:33:10 <fizzie> I think USB-passthrough is also only in the closed-source edition. Not that I've ever wanted to have that.
21:33:22 <fizzie> Serial is supported everywhere.
21:33:52 <AnMaster> I have some silly devices that only support windows sadly. Like a GPS unit I need to update the maps on every now and then
21:34:07 <fizzie> That's a good candidate for some reverse-engineering fun.
21:34:14 <fizzie> Oh, and you can use native partitions.
21:34:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, even sillier: the gps unit actually runs linux on arm internally
21:34:40 <GregorR> I was under the impression that USB forwarding had made it into the OSI.
21:34:44 <fizzie> (You have to create a .vmdk file referring to the raw partition.)
21:35:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: VirtualBox can use VMWare files.
21:35:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, and the raw-partition support is done as a part of the vmdk support.
21:35:39 <AnMaster> well I think I prefer vmware-server then. At least it doesn't pretend to be open source.
21:35:49 <AnMaster> while stripping vital features
21:36:38 <fizzie> I don't prefer it, because last time I tried it, it made an unholy mess of things. I really don't like installers touching my files all around, anyway.
21:37:03 <AnMaster> gentoo has a package for it, that contains the mess
21:37:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, from what I can see it uses sed a lot.
21:37:36 <fizzie> Might be; I guess no Debian-enthusiast has bothered to go through all that trouble.
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21:38:24 <fizzie> There is "vmware-package" which gives a make-vmpkg tool that you can use to build .debs out of vmware workstation/player/server installer files.
21:38:37 <fizzie> I guess that would handle the mess too.
21:38:51 <GregorR> "Again,don't be angry with me if you see this message in SPAM of your mailbox; it will be because I send it with low internet connection."
21:39:00 <fizzie> It wasn't there the last time I looked.
21:39:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, um. what is a "low internet connection" supposed to be...
21:39:51 <GregorR> AnMaster: I don't know, but don't you just wurve how stupid spam is? :P
21:40:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, except I don't know what "wurve" means. *googles*
21:40:28 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for wurve.
21:40:31 <GregorR> I especially love how it then goes on to say "I am the Executive Auditor and Head Of Computing Department in my bank." And yet for some reason, he can only afford "low internet connection" :P
21:40:49 <Deewiant> "wurve" is some kind of cutesy-or-something spelling for "love"
21:40:57 <AnMaster> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wurve
21:41:06 <AnMaster> and google doesn't know it at all
21:41:26 <GregorR> You're trusting Urban Dictionary? :P
21:41:26 <Deewiant> That would make me smarter than Google and Urban Dictionary combined, now wouldn't it
21:41:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, it is usually useful for irc
21:42:00 <GregorR> Well, Deewiant was right :P
21:42:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, aspell doesn't like it either
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21:42:26 <Deewiant> It's not a real word, it's onomatopoeic.
21:42:37 <AnMaster> nor is it in /usr/share/dict/words
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21:51:51 -!- GregorR has set topic: Logarithms: <http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained.> | ~fish~.
21:55:54 <fizzie> I noticed it just recently when twiddling through Linux kernel menuconfig; there's a CONFIG_CRYPTO_CRC32C_INTEL setting that makes use of it.
21:56:07 -!- GregorR has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:56:16 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:57:15 <ais523> ah, I always get a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling when we have "the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment" in the topic
21:57:35 <GregorR> I decided it was time to switch it back to my original topic :P
21:57:58 <GregorR> 05.10.10:19:09:35 --- topic: set to '#esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric' by GregorR
22:00:53 <fizzie> I can't seem to find any speed benchmarks between the crc32c and crc32c-intel modules. :/
22:01:39 <GregorR> fizzie: I should hope that somebody did benchmark them, rather than just assuming the latter was faster :P
22:02:25 <Deewiant> I'd hope that it's a fairly safe assumption that it is.
22:03:42 <fizzie> I'd still hope that the original patch-writer would've tested hir implementation at least with some sort of rudimentary speed benchmark; but if that happened, it's not a very well-published result. I might be using the wrong sort of keywords, though.
22:07:07 <fizzie> I could theoretically speaking be motivated enough to try it myself, but I don't have any sort of fancy-pants CPU for that; I guess my second-newest Intel CPU would be... a Pentium-150 in a laptop. (And then I have this Atom box, but it doesn't do anything newer than ssse3 either.)
22:09:39 <Deewiant> Atom doesn't count as Intel? :-P
22:10:39 <fizzie> It does; that's why the P150 is the second-newest.
22:10:56 <Deewiant> Ah. "And then" made it sound like it was a third box.
22:11:13 <fizzie> Although I think I managed to forget a Pentium-M somewhere.
22:12:46 <bsmntbombdood> "crypto" and "crc32" should not be in the same sentence
22:13:53 <ehird> 21:28 AnMaster: ehird, so you recommend to not file any bugs to any projects, instead only complain in some totally unrelated irc channel and not report the issue at all ← not what I said.
22:13:57 <ehird> is that what I said?
22:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I extrapolated from your behaviour.
22:14:29 <ehird> That's some sucky extrapolation.
22:14:31 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: you could use crc32 in order to verify that a public-key had transmitted properly
22:14:40 <AnMaster> but yes it seems to match your opinion
22:14:43 <ais523> you don't want to use it for the actual crypto, though
22:14:53 <ais523> it doesn't guarantee that things haven't been tampered with
22:14:55 <ais523> just that they don't contain typos
22:15:02 <ais523> which isn't very useful for crypto
22:15:07 <fizzie> It was a bit unclear why crc32 is in the "cryptoapi" part; the help says it's used in iSCSI headers and things like that.
22:16:33 <fizzie> Yes, there's still the "library routines" crc32 thing too; but the intel-accelerated patch was for a cryptoapi digest.
22:16:42 <fizzie> I guess they just liked the cryptoapi digest-calculating API more.
22:17:12 <fizzie> It is not immediately obvious what would be a more suitable way of exporting that sort of stuff to userspace.
22:17:58 <fizzie> (Or can you use "raw" cryptoapi quasi-directly from a userspace application? I have no clue. The dm-crypto thing uses it, but that's inside the kernul.)
22:19:25 <ehird> Let's have a change. /me tries "sudo pacman -S kde".
22:19:47 <ehird> I wonder if this package manager is good enough to do "remove this and all its dependencies apart from vital shit, 'kay?" to wipe out ze kde.
22:20:11 <ehird> Or, as apt puts it: remove packages that aren't depended on.
22:20:40 <ais523> "remove X and all its dependencies" is what Windows uninstallers try to do, which is why they're so broken
22:20:48 <ais523> "remove X, then remove all unused dependencies" is so much saner
22:21:04 <ehird> I was just describing the general operation
22:21:14 <ehird> "rid me of this foul beast and all that it sides with! apart from my chums."
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22:21:44 <ehird> Coo, it's downloading gcc.
22:21:50 <ehird> ^C let's just install the build-essential equivalent.
22:21:54 <ehird> ... also, why does kde depend on gcc?
22:22:07 <ehird> Anyway, sudo pacman -S core-devel was it? or dev. or base.
22:22:11 <ehird> Deewiant: do you know?
22:23:16 <ehird> Deewiant: would there happen to be a way to streamline its output and not make it ask me whether to install it twice ;-)
22:23:44 <ehird> "INSTALL THIS SHIT?" "OKAY, HERE ARE THE DEPENDENCIES. REALLY INSTALL THIS SHIT?"
22:23:51 <ehird> ais523: "Do you want to erase your system for this package? [Yn]"
22:24:17 <Deewiant> --noconfirm do not ask for any confirmation
22:24:23 <ehird> Deewiant: That's exactly what I don't want
22:24:29 <ehird> I just don't want it to ask me the same question twice dammit :P
22:24:42 <ehird> you can run vista without uac
22:25:10 <Deewiant> ehird: It only asks you twice for groups, btw.
22:25:15 <Deewiant> Which you won't be installing often.
22:25:17 <ais523> ehird: but that's insecure!
22:25:23 <ehird> It has been my misfortune to mainly install groups ;-)
22:25:30 <ehird> ais523: just run as a non-admin?
22:25:41 <ais523> that's how the Vista computers over here are set up
22:25:54 <ais523> they're as secure as I can get Vista without much Windows knowledge
22:25:58 <ehird> you set up a windows machine willingly?
22:26:00 <ais523> and with only Norton 360 as the antivirus
22:26:15 <ehird> turn into a christian and repent
22:26:18 <ais523> with any luck they haven't been hacked into yet
22:26:23 <ehird> you can stop being a christian after that, it's ok
22:29:30 <pikhq> I think I'd rather run DOS than Vista.
22:29:58 <pikhq> (at least DOS does what you ask it and gets the fuck out of your way)
22:30:08 <ais523> nowadays there's FreeDOS
22:30:25 <ais523> whose main advantage is that it's crazy fast
22:30:27 <pikhq> Well, yeah. I of course was thinking of FreeDOS.
22:30:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: good god, have some patience
22:30:34 <ehird> do you really need it in 5 minutes? :P
22:30:42 <pikhq> It's a damned good DOS.
22:30:43 <ehird> I've waited 3 weeks for things to be shipped
22:30:54 <ais523> Dell actually offer it on new computers as an OS choice along with Ubuntu or Windows
22:30:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: >_<
22:31:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so you get everything the day after you order it?
22:31:55 <ehird> ehh, bug their support team?
22:32:22 <bsmntbombdood> Status: Submitted - Your order has been successfully submitted. Your credit/debit card has not yet been charged. Please allow 1-2 business days for your order to process and ship.
22:32:46 <ehird> you americans are spoilt rotten
22:32:54 <ehird> 1-2 business days is luxury over here!
22:33:17 <Deewiant> Is 1-2 business days a long time for an online order? O_o
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22:34:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nope
22:34:42 <Deewiant> Like ehird said, it's luxury :-P
22:34:54 <Deewiant> 1-2 weeks is my default expectation.
22:34:54 <ehird> an online order usually takes about a week from ordering to getting it
22:35:10 <pikhq> The only time I expect it to ship next day is when the web site says so...
22:35:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: where do you order shit where you get it a day after ordering
22:35:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> Let's have a change. /me tries "sudo pacman -S kde". <-- kdemod. Read on arch wiki
22:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: explain in 5 words, I don't wanna cancel my download :P
22:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: ah. tweaked.
22:36:01 <pikhq> Which generally means it's one of the few bits of inventory that they've got right next to the boxing guys, and they just need to stick a label on the box...
22:36:07 <ehird> I'm trying arch to escape from modified upstreams, y'know
22:36:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wtf is up with you :D
22:36:42 <ehird> you first said about wanting a new pc a few months ago
22:36:47 <ehird> and now 1-2 business days is terrible?
22:37:05 <Deewiant> ehird: Modularized version of KDE from a third-party Arch package repo, or something like that
22:37:15 <ehird> Upstream modification, boo
22:37:26 <Deewiant> IME that means that it works better. :-P
22:37:38 <ehird> It's not like I want to use KDE in practic
22:37:40 <pikhq> Not all such modification is bad.
22:37:47 <ehird> It's just that the last 3458973489573495345 distros I've used use gnome :P
22:37:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why?
22:37:59 <pikhq> Some packages need such modification to freaking *build*.
22:38:05 <ehird> pikhq: That's fine.
22:38:08 <Deewiant> Most KDE programs I've tried still crash for me, but with kdemod I at least managed to run some things. :-P
22:38:11 <ehird> I just don't like changes beyond "make it work properly"
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22:38:34 <pikhq> Ah. Well, then, you'd like Gentoo...
22:38:42 <ehird> pikhq: Noooooooooooo way.
22:38:51 <pikhq> The only package that does more than "make it work properly" is gentoo-sources.
22:38:53 <ehird> Fuck source distros, fuck Gentoo's community, fuck Gentoo's relation with upstreams. :P
22:39:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> nowadays there's FreeDOS <ais523> whose main advantage is that it's crazy fast <-- stop making me want to port cfunge... AUGH
22:39:15 <ehird> AnMaster: no posix :-)
22:39:20 <ehird> OTOH, it'd work on Windows then
22:39:22 <GregorR> ehird: There is (nearly) with DJGPP
22:39:22 <pikhq> Gentoo has an excellent relationship with most of its upstreams; exceptions being, well, dicks.
22:39:35 <ehird> GregorR: Not exactly nearly.
22:39:40 <GregorR> DJGPP supports a bunch of POSIXy stuff. No, not mmap.
22:39:41 <ehird> pikhq: I haven't seen that.
22:39:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-05-08 00:36:11 ( AnMaster) I'm going to bed
22:39:47 <ehird> Deewiant: he does that all the time
22:39:48 <GregorR> DJGPP supports what can be supported without killing yourself ;)
22:39:50 <ehird> he takes a few hours
22:39:54 <pikhq> And Gentoo's community is mostly smart people with a few dumbasses.
22:39:57 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster uses those things.
22:40:11 <GregorR> I mean supported /on DOS/ without killing yourself, of course.
22:40:15 <ehird> pikhq: like hell it is, I've never seen more people think they're cool because they can run a compiler and turn on optimization flags
22:40:18 <pikhq> (you can tell whether they're smart depending on their opinion on funroll-loops.info)
22:40:34 <ehird> GregorR: Just saying that it wouldn't work for cfunge.
22:40:38 <AnMaster> ehird, not representative. I have met lots of gentoo users who aren't like that.
22:40:52 <AnMaster> in fact I met very few gentoo users like that
22:40:53 <ehird> Do they hang out in #the-secret-gentoo-channel-wihtout-all-the-idiots?
22:41:03 <ehird> Because I've never, ever seen them.
22:41:13 <ehird> 'part from a few in here.
22:41:15 <pikhq> And you're saying "fuck source distros" while using arch.
22:41:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh main #gentoo? Well the sub-channels tend to be saner
22:41:24 <ehird> pikhq: Arch... is a binary distro...
22:41:29 <ais523> ehird: settled on a distro yet?
22:41:37 <ehird> ais523: nope; thank god for cheap VM creation
22:41:37 <AnMaster> though it has makepkg to build binary packages
22:42:00 <ehird> ais523: probably Ubuntu is what I'd use atm, for the "goddamn, just work" value.
22:42:06 <GregorR> On the twelfth day, the LORD created cheap VM creation. And it was good.
22:42:24 <pikhq> ehird: That's what I use Debian for, myself...
22:42:50 <pikhq> Or maybe Slackware.
22:42:50 <ehird> pikhq: Debian's default gnome isn't quite as polished.
22:43:07 <ehird> Also, installing and using Slackware is not much of a "hey, I just clicked this and it did it all for me, life is good" experience.
22:43:42 <pikhq> Maybe I was just insane, but when I used Slackware, it kinda... Just Worked (tm).
22:43:59 <pikhq> (probably just insane; Slackware was my first distro)
22:44:45 <pikhq> Actually, Slackware 8.
22:44:52 <ehird> Hehe, slackware started because SLS switched to ELF...
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22:45:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: not imo
22:45:24 <pikhq> Funny, I thought Slackware started because SLS *wouldn't* switch to ELF...
22:45:28 <ehird> it's a bit of a pain to configure but after that it's pretty smooth sailing
22:45:37 <ehird> kde is awful indeed
22:45:42 <ehird> but I like a bit of glue between my components
22:46:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: out of curiosity, what wm do you use?
22:47:14 <ehird> i consider tiling wms unergonomical :)
22:48:41 <fizzie> Slackware 3.2 "broken edition" was my first distro.
22:49:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Why, hello, fellow Tiling WM user.
22:49:22 <ehird> fizzie: my friend's got you all beat
22:49:30 <pikhq> (shame you use one by a dick, though)
22:49:57 <fizzie> I do Awesome3 here; it's a tiling wm too.
22:50:22 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood, he also is distributing Ion3 illegally. :p
22:51:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: licensing issues
22:51:07 <pikhq> (at least, he is if there is a single bit of code from Ion3 before the non-free change not written by Tuomo)
22:51:14 <ehird> tuomov's opinion on them seems to be "I CAN DO WHAT THE FUCK I WANT, YEAAAAH!"
22:51:57 <ehird> does the latest ion distro even have a LICENSE file?
22:52:24 <ehird> it's extended LGPL with bullshit terms
22:52:29 <ehird> - Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on
22:52:29 <ehird> the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days
22:52:30 <ehird> of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete
22:52:34 <ehird> HAHA he actually added that
22:52:38 <ehird> due to debian having a few month old version
22:52:44 <ehird> - Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user
22:52:44 <ehird> explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and
22:52:45 <ehird> is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered
22:52:48 <ehird> the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder.
22:52:49 <ehird> The version string displayed by the program must describe these
22:52:51 <ehird> modifications and the "support void" status.
22:52:53 <ehird> - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
22:52:55 <ehird> copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.
22:52:57 <ehird> i just quoted all 3 clauses out of order
22:53:00 <ehird> because they're all absolute gold
22:53:10 <ais523> I would so love it if Debian somehow put on a script which took the latest version and patched it back to an old version
22:53:25 <ehird> - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
22:53:25 <ehird> copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.
22:53:33 <ehird> tuomov is such a retard
22:53:48 <ais523> the third term there is a weird wording of one DFSG-approved term
22:53:58 <fizzie> That "significantly altered" refers (among other things, I guess) the incident where Arch's non-official "user repository" had a script that fetched Ion and installed the xft "blurry-fonts patch", yet called the result "ion".
22:54:01 <ais523> which is "all modified versions must be provided in the form of a diff from the original version"
22:54:02 <GregorR> When did Slackware switch to ELF? :P
22:54:10 <ehird> ais523: provided to the user
22:54:11 <ais523> Debian don't like that rule, but don't think it makes software nonfree
22:54:19 <ehird> apt-get install ion
22:54:22 <ehird> they must get a stock one
22:54:27 <ehird> apt-get install ion-megadebian
22:54:28 <pikhq> GregorR: Probably about when they switched to libc 6.
22:54:34 <ehird> and which then must display prominently
22:54:39 <ehird> WE SUCK DICKS AND YOU CANNOT GET SUPPORT FOR THIS VERSION <3
22:54:57 <pikhq> The thing I really "like" about all this is that he thinks that he can repeal the previous LGPL versions.
22:55:04 <ehird> basically, tuomov has no fucking idea what foss is and demands that packagers work like crack addicts to keep up to date with his shitty updates :-D
22:55:29 <ehird> "Significant change: Bug fixes are insignificant as additions."
22:55:44 <ehird> Debian should consider their changes to Ion to be a bugfix for tuomov's idiocy ;-)
22:56:05 <pikhq> I'm surprising Ion's not been forked by now.
22:56:07 <ais523> it wouldn't be the first time...
22:56:18 <ehird> ais523: well, you couldn't call it eion
22:56:22 <ehird> you'd have to completely change the name
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22:56:32 <pikhq> eglibc itself isn't the first time.
22:56:34 <ehird> although debian could redirect ion3 to opm
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22:57:07 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Ratpoison.
22:57:15 <pikhq> Mean to switch to StumpWM one of these days.
22:57:28 <fizzie> Slackware went from libc5 into glibc when they jumped versions from 4 -> 7 because redhat and friends were already at number 6. I don't remember the ELF thing; I think there was some sort of ELF support in 3.x already.
22:57:47 <ehird> I once drafted up in my head what would be needed to make a tiling wm usable (mainly manipulated w/ mouse, fitts law compliant etc) and it basically turned into a shit floating wm
23:00:20 <ehird> the clue's in the name
23:00:52 <pikhq> I use the mouse for Flash.
23:02:13 <ehird> (It's not completely unheard of, though - GNU emacs used to greet Symbolics users with the message "In doing business with Symbolics, you are rewarding a wrong.")
23:02:23 <ehird> Poor rms and his Symbolics hate.
23:02:32 <ehird> Rewarding a wrong!
23:02:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:02:53 <pikhq> At least Emacs didn't have an invariant clause. :p
23:02:53 <ais523> <perl6 doc> Conjecture: other such patterns may be recognized in the future, depending on which unrealistic benchmarks we want to run faster.
23:03:11 <ehird> Okay, arch installed kde
23:03:22 <ais523> the Emacs manual used to have a lengthy rant about why it didn't run on Windows
23:03:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:03:28 <ais523> although that's been fixed now too
23:04:07 <ehird> http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms
23:04:42 <ais523> wow, assignment in Perl6 is as lazy as possible without breaking imperative semantics
23:04:59 <ais523> you can write @array = 0..*;
23:05:01 <ehird> Perl 6 is just shit.
23:05:06 <ais523> and get an infinitely long array
23:05:13 <ais523> Haskell doing that makes sense, seeing it in Perl is pretty mindblowing though
23:06:26 <ais523> it's also the only language I've seen with todo operators
23:06:40 <ais523> most people just put todos in comments...
23:06:59 <ehird> OK, KDE installed on Arch and KDM set.
23:07:16 <ehird> Time to reboot and check it out.
23:07:28 <ehird> At least, nothing so far has happened that's any worse than Debian, so.
23:07:38 * ehird sudo shutdown -r now
23:07:41 <ais523> are you planning to uninstall KDE again as a test?
23:08:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:08:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:08:26 <ehird> It's asking me for a login.
23:08:56 <oerjan> !perl print "What do you mean, not associated?";
23:08:57 <EgoBot> What do you mean, not associated?
23:14:58 <ehird> Deewiant: I have KDE, I just don't have X11. Wtf.
23:14:58 <oerjan> <Deewiant> If I get an additional crash due to not using ECC memory, I really won't notice.
23:15:46 <oerjan> i do recall reading about a Java exploit that could use a large fraction of memory bit errors to break security
23:18:59 <oerjan> by arranging for a reference to point to an object of the wrong class
23:19:46 <oerjan> this could be an issue for any language based on strong static typing, i guess
23:20:42 <oerjan> well, probably dynamic too
23:25:48 <ehird> holy unantialiased text and no mouse batman
23:25:59 <ehird> holy no keyboard batman
23:26:14 <ehird> holy Deewiant how do you uninstall a package and remove unused dependencies batman
23:37:23 <ehird> I'll bet fizzie has
23:39:54 <fizzie> I might have tried it, but not really used.
23:40:15 <ehird> fizzie: isn't awesome based on dwm
23:40:26 <fizzie> It seems a bit like evilwm, except tiling. (Evilwm also does the whole "no title bar, no configuration files, not much of anything" thing.)
23:40:39 <ehird> I'm sure awesome is based on dwm
23:40:42 <fizzie> I don't know the genealogy.
23:40:52 <ehird> fizzie: awesoem does floating windows, right?
23:40:54 <ehird> are they a pain to use?
23:41:08 <pikhq> ehird: Well, you might just have libX11. Technically, you don't need an X server. ;p
23:41:14 <ehird> pikhq: indeed that was the case
23:41:21 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pain". They float, that's about it.
23:41:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: are you actually running into troubles with your current one or just impatience?
23:41:35 <oerjan> 11:57:37 <ehird> a collection of quarks
23:41:38 <ehird> fizzie: i mean, what if I basically just wanted to use floating windows
23:41:43 <ehird> would that mesh with awesome? :p
23:41:49 <oerjan> what did the poor leptons do to you since you ignore them?
23:41:58 <ehird> oerjan: sry leptons!
23:42:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Making noise? Hate to break it to ya but that i7 rig isn't going to be _quiet_...
23:42:33 <fizzie> I... guess you could. One of the possible window layouts is "everything floating". I'm not sure how nice it is to use in a window-managmenty sense; my needs are so very simple.
23:43:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, calm down or you'll forget t he spacers :-P
23:43:39 <oerjan> most people don't want their fans to die
23:44:03 <ehird> Please tell me you know what I meant.
23:44:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the spacers are the screws that come with your case that you attach so your mobo doesn't touch the case
23:45:04 <ehird> i mean when you get it :
23:45:10 <ehird> it was just a joke since i've known one or two cases where people have fried mobos by not putting the spacers on
23:45:15 <ehird> one guy did it _thrice_
23:47:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well that'd explain why it took "so long"
23:47:16 <ehird> what's their problem
23:49:35 <bsmntbombdood> now it prompts me to change it but won't let me...
23:49:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat?
23:55:23 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think tuomov would do if I took his code and blatantly violated the license :-)
00:00:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:02:34 <ehird> is there a bsd with binary pkgs?
00:03:42 <ehird> really? Even Open?
00:03:49 <ehird> do you still have to use ports, though?
00:03:55 <ehird> I suppose there may be frontends
00:04:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=pkg_add&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=OpenBSD%20Current&arch=i386&format=html
00:04:19 <ehird> Does bsd have anything similar to lvm?
00:04:20 <Gracenotes> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:04:38 <Gracenotes> yes, it was total skill that my eww was exactly as long as your comment
00:06:12 <Gracenotes> nothing. btw mah raytracer. http://67.223.225.106/tasd/
00:06:29 <oerjan> <GregorR> On the twelfth day, the LORD created cheap VM creation. And it was good. <<< No, that was on the zeroth day. You don't seriously think he would run us without sandboxing?
00:07:57 <psygnisfive> there has been discovered a new and wonderful form of poetry! :o
00:08:43 <psygnisfive> what, you dont like my inelegant use of the there+passive? dont give me your grammar nazism!
00:09:06 <ehird> What's the poetry.
00:09:11 <oerjan> no, he meant angkor wat. that's where it was discovered, right?
00:09:38 <psygnisfive> the discoverers were eating soup from that very area when the reporters arrived
00:10:05 <psygnisfive> take a text in language A. spell check it as if it's language B. then translate the text from language B into language A.
00:10:36 <ehird> Thhhe, were eating poetry
00:10:36 <ehird> drinking tea from that
00:10:45 <ehird> area where it was discover-
00:11:09 <psygnisfive> The oil problem is, lead away I switch languages in Misheard 2000 (wedge mouthguard does automatically hen I switch keyboard lay-outs), mouthguard bugs me bolt the facet that dinner table slow is note supporter Bi the game crazier, Belause {name} mouthguard haircut bone install. And let me count ouch, that is far point of attachment.
00:11:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's far too coherent for that process surely
00:11:56 <ehird> so similarish words
00:12:35 <ehird> MAYBE SHOULD JAPANESE
00:13:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: hey that's just one strand of reading!
00:13:39 <ehird> MAYBE you SHOULD KILL THE JAPANESE
00:13:42 <ehird> MAYBE I SHOULD try JAPANESE
00:13:42 <Gracenotes> Oh, I love having a monospaced IRC client
00:13:50 <Gracenotes> but :\ reading it horizontally doesn't make sense
00:13:54 <ehird> MAYBE you SHOULd try JAPANESE
00:14:01 <ehird> Gracenotes: yeah I tried that at first
00:14:18 <oerjan> We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap
00:14:37 <ehird> hey I used to be a
00:14:37 <ehird> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPIRAL<
00:14:46 <ehird> i'm all about meaningless furor as art.
00:15:27 <Gracenotes> spiral, you say? http://www.onemanga.com/Uzumaki/
00:16:31 <Gracenotes> the same guy who made Enigma of Amigara Fault
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00:25:01 <psygnisfive> has anyone ever tried to read finnegans wake?
00:27:10 <psygnisfive> its less comprehensible than the dutch-english thing from above
00:27:34 <ehird> riverrun, past Eve and Adam's
00:27:57 <psygnisfive> bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!
00:28:06 <oerjan> three quarks for muster mark
00:28:59 <psygnisfive> who i would guess has read the thing full through
00:30:46 <psygnisfive> Brékkek Kékkek Kékkek Kékkek! Kóax Kóax Kóax! Ualu Ualu Ualu! Quaouauh!
00:38:35 <Gracenotes> Finnegan's Wake wiki, by the way: http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Page_3
00:39:25 <ehird> Analyzing it destroys it.
00:40:15 <Gracenotes> ehird: beat you by two and a half years on that point :P http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=202042&cid=16540372
00:40:57 <Gracenotes> wow... it's been a long time, internet.
00:41:09 <ehird> 2006 ain't long ago
00:41:28 <ehird> true. I was an idiot in 2006.
00:41:53 <ehird> started netting in '98. so... about 9 years to become unstupid
00:46:27 <psygnisfive> im listening to a reading of finnegans wake
00:46:35 <ehird> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg
00:46:55 <psygnisfive> and im almost willing to believe that if this was read with a very thick accent, itd actually be readable
00:47:22 <ehird> Idea: Finnegans Wake... sung!
00:48:11 <ehird> *70s sort of rock, think Led Zepplin* Riverrun, past Eve and Adam's yeah/From swerve of shore to bend/Of bay, brings us by/A commodius vicus/Of recirulation back to Howth Castle/aaand Enviro-ons
00:48:20 <psygnisfive> maybe joyce was just illiterate and couldnt spell :o
00:51:06 <psygnisfive> finnegans wake is very reminiscent of the output of a markov chain model of english sentences
00:52:02 <psygnisfive> we could construct some sort of grammatical model of english and have it generate random sentences that are wake-esque :o
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01:02:34 <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png
01:03:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: Windows 1.01 Vista!
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01:07:47 <GregorR> file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
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01:10:03 * ehird considers if you could use compiz-fusion + dmenu for a minimalist environment
01:10:16 <Sgeo> GregorR, what wsa stupid?
01:10:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png // what I meant to link.
01:10:23 <GregorR> Sgeo: <GregorR> file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
01:10:24 <ehird> 01:07 GregorR: file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
01:11:00 <GregorR> Anyway, go look at http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png :P
01:11:05 <GregorR> That was relevant to <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png
01:11:11 <ehird> toasty tech has shit like that too, yeah
01:11:33 <GregorR> Gracenotes: This is just my hg clone
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01:12:11 <Sgeo> There's a Moka5 thingy for Win 3.1
01:12:12 <GregorR> Err, that is, that file:// path is just an hg clone
01:12:16 <Sgeo> Don't know how legal it is
01:12:35 <ehird> MokaFive LivePC Engine makes use of VMware Player as a virtualization platform, but includes additional features such as automatic updates of virtual machines, streaming and caching of virtual machine images, integrated backup, hardware-accelerated 3D graphics support, and zero install when running from a USB drive.[1]
01:13:19 <GregorR> The thing that people are supposed to see as weird in my screenshot is that it's Firefox and bash running on Windows 3 :P
01:13:41 <ehird> It's not too interesting :P
01:13:43 <ehird> Been there done that
01:13:43 <Sgeo> And being in NT351
01:13:56 <GregorR> Bleh, you people are too smart :P
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01:18:16 <ehird> eh, it seems likely that Arch is the distro for m
01:18:30 <GregorR> ORLY? I've never tried Arch.
01:18:38 <GregorR> Summarize its advantages in one IRC line :P
01:19:13 <GregorR> (Using Debian as a base for comparison if necessary)
01:19:37 <ehird> GregorR: it doesn't mod upstreams much, large amount of user-contributed packages, friendly & big community, it's minimalist, and yet you can still install big glob suites with one command, the package manager seems alright, and it has 64-bit binaries and all that
01:20:04 <ehird> compared with debian: mods upstreams less, seems to be generally more oriented to fixing things at upstream instead of patching downstream
01:20:22 <ehird> and is generally more minimal
01:20:43 <GregorR> Yeah, Debian makes sometimes-significant modifications to upstream, meaning that sometimes the Debian version is actually quite a bit different than upstream.
01:21:01 <ehird> I don't mind value-add stuff, I just don't want it by default
01:21:02 <GregorR> Example: netpbm sucks on Debian, I always install it manually :P
01:21:12 <GregorR> Oh, my example is a value-subtract.
01:21:24 <ehird> Upstream's for me, and arch is similar enough to debian that I can probably just use it as a lean, mean Linux universe machine
01:21:48 <ehird> try it in a vm if you want
01:22:10 <ehird> GregorR: oh, and rolling release, which I don't actually care about
01:22:18 <ehird> rolling release works better when you don't mod upstream ofc
01:22:44 <GregorR> Out of curiosity, does Arch work on any non-x86alike platforms?
01:22:57 <ehird> GregorR: i686 and x86_64 only, it seems.
01:23:20 <ehird> GregorR: The only things I'd consider running a non-x86 on is embedded stuff, though.
01:23:29 <ehird> And for embedded stuff I wouldn't use a full linux distro :-)
01:25:20 <Sgeo> The Chrome 3D button disappeared
01:25:21 <ehird> GregorR: Oh, and, Arch uses a BSD-style init.
01:25:25 <Sgeo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
01:25:30 <ehird> GregorR: Runlevels, you understand. And whatnot.
01:25:38 <ehird> /etc/rc.conf pointing to shit in /etc/rc.d/.
01:25:44 <ehird> It's simple. I like that. init.d is confusing.
01:25:55 <ehird> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/FAQ#Q.29_What_exactly_is_this_.27BSD-style.27_init_framework_I_keep_hearing_about.3F
01:27:16 <ehird> Oh, and Arch's community seems to generally prefer throwing text around instead of big anti-unix environments.
01:27:21 <ehird> I can work with either, but minimalism is nice.
01:27:29 <ehird> Even if I _do_ need something to fill up that 12GB ram.
01:28:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: mine's faster ;-P
01:28:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: competing against my own rig is hard, don't make me :P
01:30:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Arch? :-P
01:30:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Well, a linux helps, for the LVM alignment stuff.
01:31:01 <ehird> I don't know how to do that on BSD.
01:32:45 <oerjan> !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/.//.//.0.1.1.0
01:32:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'm not sure where you'd put the mechanical HD, though. /home would put dotfiles on it defeating the point. ~/stuff as the mechanical HD is a bit inelegant.
01:33:33 <oerjan> !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/./.0.1.1.0
01:33:36 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: ~/media, with symlinks at ~/music, ~/porn, ~/movies
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01:34:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what about source code? it's not media, but do you want to hammer the SSD with those writes? I guess it's just me being paranoid :-P
01:34:16 <ehird> But yeah, I'm generally suspicious of symlinks, it may be the best solution in that case.
01:34:47 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0
01:35:03 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//*******/.//.0
01:35:03 <EgoBot> 01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001
01:35:19 <ehird> Anyway. Bye. bsmntbombdood: if you want to ask me something or whatever, do it in /msg so it sticks out tomorrow :P
01:35:45 <bsmntbombdood> you mean you don't have a script to show you highlights in a different window?
01:54:17 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0
01:54:23 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//.0
01:59:58 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//++.0.1
01:59:58 <EgoBot> ==01001010-0100101001001
02:01:19 <GregorR> What's the quickest way from 0 to Sha1 sum in C?
02:01:49 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///-/\\\\///0/1//1/\*/++.0.1
02:01:49 <EgoBot> 1/++01,,==0101001001010010100100101001001
02:02:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:02:58 -!- puzzlet has joined.
02:03:08 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++.0.1
02:03:09 <EgoBot> ++01-010-01001-01001010-0100101001001
02:04:44 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++
02:04:57 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++
02:06:05 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\//++
02:06:18 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\/\//++
02:06:32 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++
02:06:57 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++.1
02:07:04 <coppro> What are you trying to do?
02:08:16 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\\/++.1
02:08:30 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\//++.1
02:09:25 <oerjan> !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1
02:09:51 <oerjan> !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!!!!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1
02:09:51 <EgoBot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************
02:13:03 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: What's the least-overhead SHA-1 library.
02:13:36 <GregorR> (I want to toss one into something I'm writing, without also including MD5, SHA-bleh, MD4, MD-insecure, ...)
02:14:29 <GregorR> Yeah, that's what I ended up doing :P
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02:33:46 <oerjan> although we don't know how to do infinite loops in ///, it does seem like it is much easier to do computations involving bounded looping
02:36:34 <oerjan> unless there are other obstacles, that should be enough to allow the equivalent of primitive recursion
02:38:30 <GregorR> I'm making a programming language that is literally impossible to program in.
02:39:23 <coppro> astrosteve: 700zm means that a spellbook is either cancellation or
02:39:33 <coppro> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/
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02:45:46 <kerlo> You know, I'm not sure that even in real life I could talk the way ehird types. I don't speak in series of phrases; I say entire sentences at once.
02:45:58 <kerlo> Or maybe not. You know how unreliable introspection is.
02:46:21 <oerjan> not at all, _my_ introspection is utterly flawless.
02:49:59 <kerlo> So you're a self-improving artificial intelligence.
02:50:15 * kerlo locks oerjan in a Yudkowsky Box and submerges him under ten feet of seawater.
02:50:35 <kerlo> Hmm, this won't block sound all that well.
02:51:15 <kerlo> Sorry. I'm not allowed to let you out until this emergency meeting I've called concludes that it's safe to do so.
02:51:36 <kerlo> Everything will be very expeditious; you should be on dry land within 15 minutes if everything goes well.
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03:02:27 <Sgeo> GregorR, details?
03:02:36 <GregorR> Sgeo: I'm putting it up on the wiki now.
03:06:31 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck
03:07:02 <GregorR> It's so stupid it's stupid! :P
03:08:08 <Sgeo> Anyone want to bruteforce a Hello world?
03:08:22 <Sgeo> Actually, some programs might not even be writable in that
03:08:35 <kerlo> Is SHA-1 160 bits?
03:08:56 <GregorR> Sgeo: Oh, because the SHA-1 sums of 1024 bytes may or may not cover every possibility, right.
03:09:08 <GregorR> Sgeo: I chose such a large number in hopes that it would be "enough" *shrugs*
03:09:38 <Sgeo> A lot of sha-1 sums might result in code that would be valid if it were not for comments
03:09:45 <Sgeo> Easing the comment restriction might help
03:10:29 <GregorR> Easing the comment restriction would make it trivial.
03:10:35 <GregorR> You would just have to find eight sequences.
03:16:00 <GregorR> oerjan: Yes, that IS an interesting statistic :P
03:16:31 <oerjan> so, something like several million years to find a single legal program with a current CPU?
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03:28:47 <GregorR> Would it be easier if I interpreted every 3 bits as a BF operation? That way everything would hash to valid BF, and it would be a problem of finding isomorphic BF ... which is probably still totally impossible :P
03:31:41 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck
03:32:12 <oerjan> at least it should then be possible to find actually syntactically correct programs
03:33:00 <GregorR> oerjan: Well, then it would be /im/possible to find /non/-syntactically-correct programs :P
03:33:13 <oerjan> you still have to match []
03:33:55 <GregorR> Poor, deluded bsmntbombdood :P
03:34:12 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: as currently written, the main problem is the comment prohibition
03:34:57 <GregorR> There are other ways of nopping, but even they would be nearly impossible to find.
03:35:16 <oerjan> the problem is it takes millions of years to find a program whose SHA-1 contains only bf commands
03:35:35 <GregorR> Only (8/256)^20 sequences are valid /at all/. Even finding one that's valid would take millenia.
03:36:08 <oerjan> thus the new 3 bit suggestion
03:36:28 <GregorR> Which would still be nigh-on impossible, because those nopping isomorphisms are still pretty darn rare :P
03:36:58 <bsmntbombdood> i have a feeling you will be able to get it down to ~60 bits of complexity per block
03:37:10 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Feel free :P
03:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> so you will be able to produce shafuck at a rate of like 1 instruction per week
03:37:34 <oerjan> i think any program which contains [] has a hard time being a nop
03:38:58 <oerjan> now 20 bytes = 160 bits, which isn't divisible by 3
03:39:39 <oerjan> but discarding one bit, 53 commands
03:39:59 <GregorR> Right, yes, discarding the last bit.
03:40:11 <GregorR> Mind you, I didn't agree to that, I'm just presenting it as a thought experiment :P
03:40:43 <oerjan> (6/8)^53 ~ 2.4e-7, so it's not that hard to find something not containing []
03:40:58 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: it would probably be more interesting to use something like md5 or even md4
03:41:13 <GregorR> More interesting as in more possible to write.
03:41:21 <GregorR> But I wasn't aiming for something that could actually be written :P
03:41:55 <oerjan> hm you probably want to avoid ., as well, for most building blocks
03:42:37 <GregorR> It's a PITA to make nops out of +-<>, it's almost impossible to make nops out of .,[]
03:42:46 <bsmntbombdood> so how many different combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there?
03:42:49 <GregorR> (Well, it is impossible to make nops out of ,.)
03:43:17 <oerjan> with +-<> the whole becomes a kind of vector problem
03:43:46 <oerjan> add something to a number of cells, shift some amount
03:44:04 <oerjan> two with opposite shifts can nullify
03:44:40 <oerjan> and then linear algebra to find something which +- only one cell
03:45:02 <oerjan> which should be possible with enough of those
03:45:11 <oerjan> um, this is not making it complicated
03:45:33 <GregorR> oerjan: Actually it is, you can just /run it/ to see what it modifies :P
03:45:49 <oerjan> er i'm not talking about single programs
03:46:08 <oerjan> i'm talking about using linear algebra to combine blocks into something with a simpler effect
03:46:09 <GregorR> I thought you wanted them to be clean /within/ a single chunk.
03:46:52 <bsmntbombdood> how many combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there?
03:47:10 <GregorR> Oh, I thought that was rhetorical.
03:47:12 <oerjan> if you don't have <> then those cancel, you know
03:47:50 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: no, given that you have an easy upper bound for complexity
03:48:05 <oerjan> 42 over 21, or 42!/(21!*21!) iirc
03:48:07 <GregorR> Something like 21! I'd guess, but I don't know.
03:48:16 <GregorR> Apparently oerjan knows :P
03:49:00 <oerjan> over is not division, but binomial coefficient
03:51:39 <oerjan> and given control over +-<>, you can probably find a program that contains only those plus a single .,[ or ]
03:52:23 <oerjan> so i think this might be doable
03:56:04 <oerjan> (4^52 * 53)/(8^53) ~ 1.47e-15, so that is somehow slightly easier than a pure +-<> program - this cannot be right
03:59:37 <GregorR> I think the long story short is "you're screwed"
04:01:03 <oerjan> well that is a bit of programs to search for
04:03:31 <GregorR> That's 680,272,108,843,537 sequences.
04:04:08 <GregorR> That's only 7 days at 1 BILLION sequences per second :P
04:04:35 <GregorR> At a more reasonable 1 million sequences per second, that's 22 years.
04:05:04 <bsmntbombdood> AND you only have to do it 8 times, and you can then just compose blocks
04:05:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure about that 8 times
04:06:01 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: you need to add some sort of chaining of blocks to prevent that
04:06:31 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Note that this concept is only pseudotractable IF I make it use 3-bit operations, which I'm not going to.
04:06:39 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: With 8-bit operations, it's not even remotely tractable.
04:07:15 <GregorR> If I did allow comments, it would be trivial! The whole idea is for it to be IMPOSSIBLE :P
04:07:32 <oerjan> alas, if you allow comments it becomes trivial yeah
04:08:35 <oerjan> (248^19 * 20)/(256^20) ~ 0.042
04:08:52 <oerjan> that's to search for something equivalent to a single command
04:09:02 <bsmntbombdood> much more interesting just to require an immense, but practical computational load to write
04:09:39 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: And you think that the 3-bit variety is immense but practical?
04:09:50 <oerjan> now if you used 3 bits plus chaining, it might become just about right?
04:10:23 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: so the same block has a different meaning depending on where you put it
04:10:37 <oerjan> i assume it means so that you cannot append found blocks easily
04:10:54 <GregorR> And I would do that by ...?
04:11:16 <bsmntbombdood> if you have a block that hashes to '+nopnopnopnop...', '-nopnopnopp...' etc, you can just put them together without any work
04:11:45 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Yeah, but I still find it EXTREMELY unlikely that you'll ever find those :P
04:12:07 <coppro> you can't find such a block
04:12:12 <coppro> every nop in BF takes two operations
04:12:41 <GregorR> coppro: We've already been over that, they're claiming it's (just barely) tractable, I'm not convinced.
04:13:23 <GregorR> (Right, yes, the 3-bit version)
04:13:41 <coppro> well, actually, you could get an odd-numbered nop, but it will erase some part of the memory
04:13:55 <GregorR> How about this: The hash of each 1024-byte block is taken to be the hash of everything in the file up to and including that block?
04:14:44 <GregorR> If I made it 4-bit, with the fourth bit allowing comments, that would be waaaaaaaaaay too easy, right?
04:15:20 <bsmntbombdood> do that and only use 60 or so bits of the hash, and you have system that trivial to interpret but very hard (but still possible) to write
04:16:16 <GregorR> Bleh, the whole joy was that it was just plain impossible to write X-P
04:17:10 <oerjan> maybe if the fourth bit _disallowed_ comments instead?
04:17:47 <GregorR> Well, I'm going to sleep one way or another.
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06:05:08 <kerlo> So, about that sonic computer.
06:05:28 <pikhq> A computer that uses Sonic for computation?
06:05:42 <coppro> g'night... time to think up a new precedence system for Agora
06:05:56 <pikhq> coppro: No precedence.
06:06:10 <kerlo> No, a computer that uses sound for computation.
06:06:13 <pikhq> (I'm not sure what the game state would devolve to after that)
06:06:27 <coppro> lots and lots of Paradox wins, I expect
06:06:59 <pikhq> Oh, I'd get Canada to win by paradox somehow.
06:07:18 <coppro> Am I a member of Canada's basis?
06:07:50 * coppro looks up the Wikipedia article on phonons... time to boggle
06:07:50 <pikhq> Then yes, you are.
06:08:03 <pikhq> Moot point unless you can get Canada to join Agora, though.
06:08:09 * kerlo ponders /// code to escape stuff
06:08:29 <kerlo> Replace / and \ with a and b, replace a and b with \/ and \\.
06:08:51 <kerlo> I guess you'll want to have guards as well.
06:10:03 <kerlo> !slashes /#\//a//#\\/b//a/\///b/\\//#//it's #/#/#\#\
06:10:20 <coppro> pikhq: it's not required to be a player to win
06:10:30 <coppro> though getting Canada to be a person would be tough
06:10:48 <kerlo> !slashes /#\//a/d/#\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's #/#/#\#\
06:10:55 <pikhq> Actually, we could probably get the definition of "player" changed.
06:11:16 <pikhq> It's already a non-first-class person, right?
06:12:47 <kerlo> !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\
06:16:00 <kerlo> !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\ abba
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07:40:18 <fizzie> Sonic computers reminded me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory#Acoustic_delay_lines which are an awesome idea... I mean, just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg with a boring DIMM memory chip.
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09:29:48 <mtve> http://arxiv.org/abs/0905.0740
09:56:53 <Deewiant> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
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10:08:20 <M0ny> spèce de scélérat
10:08:39 <mtve> Deewiant: rotfl
10:08:58 <M0ny> c'est pas vrai !
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10:43:53 <GregorR> <psygnisfive> i just got back from Star Trek
10:44:02 <GregorR> psygnisfive: And is it as godawful as the commercials make it out to be?
10:44:15 <GregorR> I figured it couldn't be that bad.
10:44:26 <psygnisfive> and it takes place in an alternate universe
10:44:47 <psygnisfive> the vision of the star trek universe is quite nice
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10:50:57 <impomatic> Anyone know which was the first 2D programming language?
10:51:17 <mtve> befunge i suppose
10:56:11 <impomatic> Strange that Befunge wasn't mentioned on usenet until 1996
10:57:17 <Deewiant> Which probably saw most of the discussion
10:58:03 <mtve> it was invented in 1996
10:58:17 <Deewiant> "Later the Befunge Mailing List evolved into the Esoteric Topics Mailing List, and the word began to be used to describe this kind of language. "
10:58:30 <Deewiant> -- http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
10:59:54 <Deewiant> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ goes only as far back as 2001
11:01:08 <Deewiant> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=funge-list has a tiny amount of stuff
11:01:56 <impomatic> I just wanted to check if Corelife (April 1993) was predated by any other 2D languages.
11:02:05 <fizzie> Like the wiki puts it: "Befunge was preceded in 1991 by a similar but less featureful language Biota, which was designed for experiments in self-reproduction. It was followed soon after, in 1994, by another similar language, Orthagonal, the design of which was spurred by a discussion on alt.folklore.computers."
11:02:56 <impomatic> So it was predated by Biota and possibly Befunge, depending on the month Befunge was released.
11:03:33 <fizzie> "Original document September, 1993" says the Befunge-93 spec in Catseye.
11:05:37 <Slereah> Well, that's pretty recent then
11:05:38 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Calamari has a broken link to a partial archive of the befunge mailing list
11:05:45 <Slereah> Because this september is still going on
11:06:40 <mtve> esolangs archives should be on the web.
11:08:09 <impomatic> So I guess Corelife was the second 2D programming language :-)
11:08:14 <Deewiant> There's the forum, of course, but that's recent: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html
11:08:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: The broken link is (was?) a pkzipfixed former broken zip; it was talked here on http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/05.11.17 -- I guess it's gone dead again.
11:08:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, that's how I found it.
11:09:15 <mtve> well, i can upload those maillist archives, if somebody need them.
11:09:17 <Deewiant> I guess we can poke calamari about it if he shows up.
11:09:59 <mtve> well, i was a subscriber since almost the begining :)
11:10:34 <mtve> ok, noted, will do it in a few days.
11:10:52 <Deewiant> I'd rather have it on more machines than just yours, it'd be a shame to lose them to a drive crash or something ;-)
11:12:08 <mtve> yep, a bitrot becomes a real problem. i can't find many interesting things on the web which were there, i'm sure.
11:12:31 <fizzie> Heh, http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/current is a collection of spam. :p
11:12:52 <Deewiant> Actually hmm, I've got some FBBI patches which are older than the stuff on sange.fi, I wonder where I got them from
11:12:55 <fizzie> Lots of offers for millions of dollars.
11:13:36 <Deewiant> Scratch that, they were from 2003, not the 2000 I thought.
11:13:42 <mtve> most of interesting things are already on the wiki, but archives do have their value.
11:14:15 <GregorR> Archives give you a linear view of history, wikis give you a flat view of the current state.
11:14:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: Looks like both 2006 and 2007 are also all spam.
11:14:52 <GregorR> WTF COMMERCIAL!! Why is there a commercial for Emerald Nuts that implies a grizzly death of the three main characters shortly after the commercial ends >_<
11:15:23 <impomatic> I've been archiving stuff I find interesting so it isn't lost forever.
11:20:19 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
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12:09:36 <Deewiant> Aw, mooz's Befunge pages are gone
12:12:15 <Deewiant> But no pics/downloads, of course
12:13:06 <impomatic> Hmmm... some pages have pics / zips archived too.
12:14:07 <Deewiant> mtve: Exactly how slow is http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/ supposed to be? (Or, what interpreter can run it)
12:14:37 <mtve> pretty fast, any sane interpreter should run it well.
12:15:01 <mtve> less then a second to response afair
12:15:09 <Deewiant> CCBI and FBBI are both going at 45 minutes on the first move, tkbf93 segfaulted :-P
12:15:19 <Deewiant> I don't have other -93 interpreters.
12:15:38 <fizzie> I think I asked mooz about that stuff, and he said he has an archive in some non-public place.
12:15:42 <mtve> eh, maybe i forgot something :) i have my own interpreter somewhere near to that
12:16:34 <mtve> actually a link from that page
12:16:49 <Deewiant> Okay, the C one offers fast response
12:16:53 <Deewiant> Let's see how it breaks the standard ;-)
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12:17:13 <mtve> i was trying to write it as strict as possible afair
12:18:24 <Deewiant> Wonder what's going on... will have to look into this at some point
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12:34:52 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks"
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13:12:58 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:13:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokkokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:13:12 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
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13:20:29 <fizzie> I guess we did the kokko-thing here already, though.
13:21:25 <fungot> koko kokkooko kokkoko kokkoo kokko kokkokokkookkokkokoo
13:21:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
13:21:42 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:22:10 <fungot> koko kokko oko kokko ko kokko o kokko kokko kokko okko kko ko o
13:22:18 <fizzie> There were those two functions of dubious usefulness.
13:22:21 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:22:40 <fizzie> That's pretty much the same except with a space added between repetitions.
13:22:48 <oklopol> using syntax elements from both C++ and Haskell feels a bit weird.
13:23:21 <oklopol> i just love how C++ uses << and >> for streams
13:23:26 <oklopol> i guess not strictly syntax thing
13:23:36 <fizzie> Bitshift the output stream, yes.
13:25:17 <oklopol> well true, i guess "hello world" >> cout would be more logical, because right argument tells how much ~ where to shift
13:25:37 <oklopol> (how much) ~ (where), that is
13:26:38 <oklopol> but cin >> variable makes sense at least
13:26:58 <oklopol> anyway strongly typed operators are a pretty stupid idea anyway
13:27:17 <fizzie> I don't suppose the streams overload <<= and >>= with something fancy?
13:27:43 <oklopol> i doubt it, not that i've checked
13:28:11 <oklopol> actually << and >> already have those semantics
13:28:21 <oklopol> so they could just be the same thing
13:29:11 <fizzie> Yes. I don't think they are, though.
13:30:29 <oklopol> i'm not sure why they would be
13:32:57 <fizzie> ^choo ososo soso oso so o
13:32:57 <fungot> ososo soso oso so o soso soso oso so o oso soso oso so o so soso oso so o o soso oso so o soso oso so o soso oso so o oso oso so o so oso so o o oso so o oso so o oso so o so so o o so o so o so o o o o ...
13:37:00 <oklopol> if there was a reverse choo, you could say "o so", and your "meaningful" would be meaningful
13:37:47 <Deewiant> ^cho >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:37:47 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]>[[.>]<[ ...
13:38:45 <oklopol> Deewiant: what does that do
13:39:12 <Deewiant> I don't know about fungot's one
13:39:13 <fungot> Deewiant: meet is simple enough.) indent all of the tail of the list. :p
13:39:27 <Deewiant> The one I gave to ^cho is cho's source
13:39:51 <fizzie> It indents all of the tail of the list, I guess.
13:39:51 <oklopol> i know it's cho's source, i just saw it
13:39:57 <fizzie> I'm sure fungot knows what it's speaking of.
13:39:58 <fungot> fizzie: on dit fnord, en kerro miten, mutta liittyy fnord ja fnord ilman siihen fnord fnord fnord"
13:40:14 <fizzie> fungot: Stop with the Finnish gibberish.
13:40:14 <fungot> fizzie: nice job on ooe on c.l.s. btw this is called " robotron"
13:40:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
13:40:40 <fizzie> That's from #douglasadams@ircnet; we have occasionally lapsed into Finnish there.
13:41:51 <fungot> Deewiant: but i don't really know enough about s48's internals to see where i can
13:42:15 <fizzie> To fnord a fnord you need intimate knowledge of s48's internals.
13:43:01 <fungot> Deewiant: i'll go going to work on srfi 44 seems too complicated for too little gain.
13:43:19 <fungot> Deewiant: pretty much. although regular continuations don't do fnord? ( although i find sdl a bit distasteful. but not enough to actually volunteer to write it
13:43:30 <fizzie> I really should make it take the trailing parts of the comment it's replying to as a context, but that would mean I'd have to map back from strings to tokens in a reasonable time.
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14:48:47 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
14:48:55 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
14:49:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't turn [-] into set 0?
14:50:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I think esotope-bfc needs a plugin architecture! ;P
14:50:38 <AnMaster> that way you could easily write new optimisations, possibly in some DSL.
14:51:23 <fizzie> No. I only run-length-encode consecutive <>+- (and there's that bug). I don't have a "set" instruction in the bytecode, either, although I guess I could easily have one. Should probably fix at least the bug.
14:52:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not saying you should implement esotope-bfc in befunge. Just that [-] is so common and easy to do
14:52:29 <AnMaster> possibly [-]+ into set 1 and such
14:52:59 * AnMaster thinks he should write a semi-optimising one in scheme. Just doing the basic stuff.
14:53:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why the name "esotope"?
14:55:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, by the way, I have some other ideas: What if some code snippet is reused a lot. Maybe add an "size optimising" option that tries to "factor out" common code into separate functions
14:55:18 <AnMaster> if the code snippet is long enough that is
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14:55:50 <AnMaster> this also opens the questions of intrinsics in an extended mode of course. But maybe that is a bad idea...
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15:15:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you think about a DSL like this for an optimising bf compiler:
15:15:45 <AnMaster> match: { loop: { '-', move : (store myvar count), '+', move: (is_equal? -myvar count) } } replace: { set: { offset: (var myvar), value: {get_cell 0}}, set: { offset: 0, value: 0}}
15:16:00 <AnMaster> to match [->>>+<<<] into a "move and set old to 0"
15:16:59 <AnMaster> (like: the syntax there is a horrible mix of python dicts and scheme)
15:19:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt
15:20:44 <Deewiant> I asked him about it and he said it saves stuff forever :-P
15:20:53 <Deewiant> But more copies is always a good thing :-)
15:21:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it contain 97 versikn?
15:21:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It has messages from -96 and -97 where they discuss Befunge.
15:22:05 <Deewiant> And the -96 and -97 standards.
15:22:19 <Deewiant> Probably not since the last message is from June.
15:22:26 <Deewiant> I don't even know if -97 ever had a finalized spec.
15:22:49 <Deewiant> But that also has stuff on BeGlad and the like, which is interesting.
15:22:50 <AnMaster> "I also got most of Visual Befunge for Windows actually working."
15:22:56 <Deewiant> impomatic might be interested in that stuff, too.
15:23:11 <AnMaster> did he implement some interpreter?
15:23:19 <Deewiant> No, but it's similar to Core Wars.
15:23:34 <Deewiant> I haven't read any of that yet.
15:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it explain the team id thing?
15:23:48 <Deewiant> That was the first thing I grepped for, actually :-)
15:23:59 <Deewiant> Maybe it does, just not under that name
15:24:03 <Deewiant> Like said, I haven't read any of it.
15:24:42 <Deewiant> Chronefunge: Subject-singularity Time-Travel Befunge!
15:24:48 <Deewiant> Chris Pressey's idea, originally.
15:24:57 <AnMaster> "PS. Competition: smallest self-listing prog (but not f****n' emptiness)"
15:26:49 <Deewiant> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/
15:27:14 <Deewiant> I was wondering why FBBI and CCBI both infinite-loop on it but his Bef93 interp doesn't
15:27:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, might be due to reflecting on something in 98?
15:27:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In 93 compatibility mode, of course :-P
15:28:56 <Deewiant> Haven't looked into it in detail yet.
15:31:15 <Deewiant> In Befunge-96 all IPs had the same stack
15:31:47 <Deewiant> g and p were deprecated, that's interesting
15:40:45 <AnMaster> Real life needs lazy evaluation...
15:41:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Visual Befunge - http://members.home.nl/wimrijnders/bef.htm
15:42:42 <Deewiant> "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as
15:42:42 <Deewiant> the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than
15:42:48 <AnMaster> I don't have any vm set up atm. So testing it will be highly messy
15:42:54 <fungot> Deewiant: that pesky exponential growth!! i'm having too much fun with this guy
15:43:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes the ul stack... in funge-space
15:43:41 <Deewiant> Ah, it's stored in Funge-Space?
15:44:00 <AnMaster> and it grows into negative funge-space
15:44:13 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what I set the ^ul stack limit to, it might go below -32768.
15:45:03 <fizzie> Other than that I don't use many far-off coordinates. The ^bf tape is at some row, columns [0, 999] or something equally small.
15:46:32 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:46:43 <EgoBot> 39 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.>-. [22]
15:46:48 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [95]
15:46:55 <AnMaster> surely that could be much shorter?
15:47:05 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [18]
15:47:14 <AnMaster> apart from the >><< bit I mean
15:47:23 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>--. [35]
15:47:27 <EgoBot> 35 ++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>++. [59]
15:47:32 <EgoBot> 35 +++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.>-. [33]
15:48:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "Get and Put Discouraged in favor of Get-Left, Get-Right, Put-Left and Put-Right"
15:48:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, as I said, g and p deprecated.
15:48:59 <AnMaster> but you didn't say anything about TOYS
15:49:06 <Deewiant> And yes, "get left/right hand" are stated to have been based on get-left / get-right in Befunge-96.
15:49:27 <Deewiant> They may or may not be the exact same commands.
15:49:34 <AnMaster> One-shot Stringmode - Looks useful. <-- is this ' I wonder...
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15:49:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for 'Edit #2 - Dec 19 1996 Chris Pressey, Cat's-Eye Technologies.
15:50:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll find a Befunge-96 spec.
15:50:04 <asiekierka> but this time it should be dead for good
15:50:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Includes descriptions of directives.
15:50:15 <asiekierka> and proceeding with safety to the remaining ones
15:50:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, clean reinstall duh
15:50:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Also those instructions. And yes, ' is "One-Shot Stringmode".
15:50:59 <asiekierka> I would call it "half-clean" reinstall
15:51:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, full format was what I meant
15:51:43 <AnMaster> only keep plain text files, stuff you can manually inspect
15:51:57 <asiekierka> too much stuff on my hard disk to sort them
15:52:22 <asiekierka> XP either offers omnipotent admin or cantdoanything guest
15:52:56 <AnMaster> err. I'm pretty sure it has a mode in between called "normal user" or such, instead of "limited user"
15:53:14 <AnMaster> there was that "power user" too
15:53:15 <asiekierka> well, on XP SP2 there's either "Admin user" or "Normal/Limited user"
15:53:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for "Edit #3", it's from 1996-12-31 and is the final Befunge-96 spec :-)
15:53:41 <Deewiant> I've FINALIZED the Befunge-96 spec (because, uh... it's about 2 hours away
15:53:41 <Deewiant> from 1997... and anything after that would have to be called "Befunge-97".
15:53:59 <asiekierka> actually, XP says that there's either "Computer Administrator" mode (Admin mode basically) or "Limited mode"
15:54:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm 100% sure "power user" mode
15:54:35 <AnMaster> check the user management thing found in one of them *.msc files
15:54:49 <asiekierka> so either Power User or Can't-do-Anything-Useful-Other-Than-Use-Apps-Dammit User
15:54:52 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Hahaha, holistic deviancy <-- in 96 draft?
15:55:52 <Deewiant> I think -93 came "out of the blue" when Chris released it.
15:56:36 <asiekierka> Also, is there any esoteric language that's "top at the moment" here right now?
15:56:43 <AnMaster> ; that was a compiler directive to include another .bf source
15:56:51 <Deewiant> Chris sez "I don't think there will be any more major changes" -- 1997-01-23
15:57:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you going to add a 96 compat mode to ccbi?
15:57:25 <Deewiant> Haven't looked at that in enough detail to be able to say if it is :-)
15:57:28 <asiekierka> Also, is there a tutorial on the mess of commands that's called Be(a)funge?
15:57:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Maybe, if it's simple to do. <-- hey, that's my comment
15:57:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what the hell is the "(a)" there for
15:58:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you put the "(a)" there. What did you mean with it
15:59:58 <AnMaster> "stack by a particular extentible null command"
16:00:06 <AnMaster> not sure what an "extentible null command" is yet
16:00:14 <AnMaster> but sound like one not defined by the spec?
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16:00:51 <asiekierka> Also, I want to implement BF for the C64
16:01:03 <AnMaster> I assume it was you being confused then
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16:01:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not so sure, but I suspect 98 could be done.
16:01:17 <Deewiant> The C64 doesn't have enough memory for 96.
16:01:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, limited memory of course
16:01:43 <AnMaster> if you remove the 32 bit max it works
16:01:45 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Whatever you assume, I added (a) to make a sentence that I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT MEANS
16:02:11 <asiekierka> doh, there is already a BF interpreter for the C64
16:02:13 <Deewiant> You lose fingerprints without 32, though.
16:02:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually you could do it
16:02:30 <AnMaster> since funge-space would be sparse anyway
16:02:34 <asiekierka> This is a birthday demo for Martin Wendt, a true C64 fanatic. It's a multicolour brainfuck interpreter, using the screen RAM for data and code, meaning that you see the code execute and modify itself!
16:02:37 <AnMaster> you just will get OOM rather fast
16:02:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can manually do 32-bit numbers with 8 bit ones
16:03:19 <Deewiant> Hmm, 80*25 = 2000 * sizeof bytes for a Befunge-93-sized program
16:03:40 <asiekierka> The C64 with BASIC FEATURES ON has ~38911 bytes of free memory
16:03:52 <asiekierka> BASIC FEATURES == everything BASIC offers
16:04:02 <asiekierka> And if you turn BASIC off you get even more memory
16:04:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is an OS with a webserver and web browser for C64
16:04:23 <AnMaster> I don't think it is impossible
16:04:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Where to download it because I am wondering since forever
16:05:00 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, i don't even need it so nah
16:05:14 <AnMaster> I don't really care a lot about C64
16:05:28 <AnMaster> to me it is history, and not very interesting history
16:07:25 <asiekierka> I also own an Amiga but I don't own hardware to transmit data between PC and Amiga
16:09:17 <asiekierka> Deewiant: DIdn't you work on a DOBELA interpreter?
16:09:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, he finished it iirc
16:11:08 <asiekierka> Augh, not only for Linux only, but also 64-bit
16:11:41 <asiekierka> ...did I use a very old meme just about now?
16:13:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, but why can't you test it
16:14:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you could install qemu and emulate 64-bit in case you only have a 32-bit CPU
16:14:20 <asiekierka> and I'm not sure if my Core 2 Quad is 64-bit
16:14:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, core 2 quad is most likely 64-bit
16:14:41 <asiekierka> I already wasted 3 hours today installing XP
16:14:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, agreed. installing windows is wasting time
16:15:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yes... that was what I said
16:15:11 <asiekierka> and NO WAI is from the same meme as O RLY and YA RLY, thought that you should know
16:16:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, last time I checked installing linux usually took way less
16:16:12 <ehird> 16:14 asiekierka: Core 2 Quad IS an intel CPU, doh
16:16:15 <AnMaster> something like, uh, 30 minutes?
16:16:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not even in UK is it "morning" now
16:17:09 <ehird> AnMaster: ehird time is objectively right.
16:17:11 <ehird> 11:34 Deewiant: ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks"
16:17:26 <ehird> open source hardware specifications are the best kind of porn!
16:17:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Last time I checked installing my favourite distro of Linux usually took about the same time
16:18:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, which distro is that...
16:18:21 <ehird> AnMaster: probably pclinuxos or something xD
16:18:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and why aren't you dual booting then already
16:18:42 <ehird> It's like Fedora except crappier!
16:18:53 <AnMaster> actually I used suse lots of years ago. And ehird's summary was perfect
16:19:08 <asiekierka> I am used to it and I don't want to waste time to learn a bunch of different stuff
16:19:09 <AnMaster> I went back to slackware after
16:19:52 <ehird> i'm having a bit of cognitive dissonance here
16:20:01 <ehird> my brain knows I shouldn't like Arch
16:20:05 <ehird> but my mind knows I like it
16:20:11 <Deewiant> asiekierka: It might work on BSDs too :-P
16:20:13 <ehird> i'm pretty sure it's dangerous to hav ethem out of sync
16:21:06 <Deewiant> In fact, it not only might but should work on BSDs and Solaris, though I haven't tested it
16:21:07 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as
16:21:07 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than
16:21:09 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: 65000 x 65000."
16:21:15 <ehird> Did we find the 96/97 specs?
16:21:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. The mind must be allowed to win, or you risk going mad. And not a good kind of mad (like esolang crazy/mad), but the gibbering lunatic kind of mad.
16:21:35 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-05-08 17:19:35 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt
16:21:53 <ehird> AnMaster: OTOH, I think that consciousness and the mind is merely a byproduct of the brain's process.
16:22:01 <ehird> So the mind thinking something the brain doesn't might cause a metaphysical quantum rip ;-)
16:22:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so quickly make the brain think the same
16:22:22 <Deewiant> mtve said he's digging up more stuff so with any luck we'll have the full archives online sooner or later.
16:22:23 <ehird> how? I'm the mind, I don't have control over it
16:23:46 <AnMaster> The h "Holistic Deviancy" command pops a value off the stack and uses it as the
16:23:46 <AnMaster> Holistic Deviancy value for the current program counter (and ONLY the current
16:23:46 <AnMaster> PC), throughout the entire program.
16:23:53 <AnMaster> what exactly is "Holistic Deviancy value"
16:23:56 <ehird> "Forgive me, I've taken the drastic step of subscribing all of you to this
16:23:56 <ehird> list, as you've been kind enough to take some interest in Befunge. "
16:24:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read the next paragraph.
16:24:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like storage offset, except it offsets the value instead of position?
16:24:50 <Deewiant> It wasn't a high-volume list when only that message was there, so I don't think it's very not-nice.
16:25:46 <Deewiant> Storage offset only applies to commands that mess with funge-space; that, as I understand it, applies to execution as well.
16:26:45 <AnMaster> (There is no reflect 180 degree
16:26:45 <AnMaster> operator; but one can be simulated with T@.)
16:27:20 <ehird> Lol, it's fun watching people come up with inferior keyboard alternatives to a very mouse operation (clicking links)
16:27:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err won't the G turn into a H by then?
16:27:32 <AnMaster> or does it only affect fetches and such?
16:27:46 <Deewiant> Which is exactly what I intended.
16:28:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Except that H puts the holistic deviancy on stack; you want 'h' instead?
16:32:08 <fizzie> Speaking of limited-memory systems, the TI-86 has mooz's rather nice interpreter/debugger, and that thing has 96 KB of user-accessible RAM. Of course that's befunge93 only.
16:33:40 <Deewiant> Befunge93 isn't much of a memory hog.
16:34:41 <ehird> I had to buy 12GB of RAM to run my befunge-98 mission-critical programs
16:34:45 <Deewiant> Still, CCBI manages to use 1484 K.
16:36:23 <AnMaster> From srcc!crocus!pangea.ca!befunge-request Sat Jan 04 05:02:14 1997
16:36:37 <fizzie> There's also rather little (can't really remember how little) of RAM that's really designated as "working RAM", since all programs the user installs (and other variables) are stored in the RAM too. Although you can add string variables to the VAT and use their contents as working RAM, and there's some free space you can use if you don't call the ROM function-plotting routines.
16:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't they have MX records by then?
16:37:06 <ehird> what's that got to do with anything
16:37:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh not !-bang path in routing
16:37:30 <ehird> it's that too, I think
16:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure that is even older
16:37:48 <ehird> I'm pretty sure there's a reason for it
16:38:31 <AnMaster> "Before I make the commitment to design a fully Befung-ctional system for the Mac"
16:38:37 <AnMaster> what is "Befung-ctional" I wonder
16:38:53 <ehird> Functional befunge.
16:39:00 <ehird> "a fully functional Befunge"
16:39:03 <ehird> "a fully Befung-ctional"
16:39:09 <ehird> they sound similar
16:39:33 <AnMaster> such things are easier for native speakers as usuak
16:39:40 <AnMaster> "I got an idea for Befunge playing SimCity. Why not envision a Befunge program as a road map of a
16:39:40 <AnMaster> city? Each cell is part of a line of cells in one row or one column, so why not structure them
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16:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: unsurprising
16:40:51 <ehird> Mac OS's official applications language was Pascal
16:41:26 <AnMaster> ehird, they were different posts
16:41:38 <ehird> AnMaster: still could have been a macci
16:41:50 <ehird> i mean, in 1997 you could use one of:
16:42:03 <ehird> - a buggy, hell on earth to configure linux or some sort
16:42:03 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it seems to be describe some kind of run-length compression of funge-space using "streets"
16:42:11 <ehird> - a stable, even more hell to configure bsd
16:42:22 <ehird> - a quite buggy but easy mac os
16:42:29 <ehird> pretty shit choice
16:42:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it was talking about Modula-2 too
16:42:42 <AnMaster> don't even remember what type of language that was
16:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: first OO
16:43:10 <ehird> modula-3 was the first oo
16:43:17 <ehird> modula-2 was niklaus's pascal successor
16:43:19 <ehird> AnMaster: well, sure
16:43:31 <ehird> AnMaster: but that was just windows 95 that's buggy in different ways
16:43:35 <ehird> and has a rubbisher interface
16:43:56 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't afford a Sun box!
16:44:00 <ehird> those things cost *thousands*
16:44:45 <ehird> also, I think NT was quite hard to get vs 95
16:45:01 <ehird> so yeah, in 1997 your best choice was probably a BSD or MacOS
16:45:11 <ehird> the former if you hate yourself :-P
16:45:30 <Deewiant> ehird: In 1997, many would still use DOS.
16:45:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how's the order
16:45:46 <ehird> Deewiant: True, but probably not by choice...
16:46:01 <Deewiant> I think I used DOS more often than Windows in those days.
16:46:06 <ehird> You could buy a NeXT box in 1997, couldn't you?
16:46:18 <ehird> Well, those cost multi thousands too. But if you could afford it, that'd be sweet nectar.
16:46:27 <ehird> yeah, you could, NeXT started in late 80s
16:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it have been even more obscure than SunOS?
16:46:41 <fizzie> In 1997 I was a slackwareist, and it wasn't all that bad, really.
16:46:46 <fizzie> I didn't even break it very many times.
16:46:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, TBL used it to make the web.
16:46:54 <ehird> And it was more known then than now.
16:47:03 <ehird> It'd be kind of like using a BSD today, probably.
16:47:10 <ehird> (on the desktop that is)
16:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, somehow "then than now" just sounds funny
16:47:22 <AnMaster> at least if you say it without context
16:47:28 <ehird> Apple Computer announced an intention to acquire NeXT on December 20, 1996
16:47:42 <Deewiant> BeGlad: short for Befunge Gladiators
16:47:44 <fizzie> The _asm_exec_ram memory range on TI-86 (which is the main place for both code and data for the currently running application) is 9000 bytes; that's rather luxurious, given that the 80x25-byte Befunge93 space only needs 2000.
16:48:04 <Deewiant> Was at http://www.cats-eye.com/funge/doc/97/beglad-97.html, according to Google.
16:48:36 * AnMaster tries to remember what ^ was in pascal
16:48:42 <AnMaster> I haven't coded pascal for *YEARS*
16:49:01 <fizzie> It's more pointy than a *.
16:49:05 <ehird> y'know, Apple were gonna buy BeOS instead of OS X etc. But the CEO said something like "I have Apple by the balls and I am going to squeeze", iirc, so uh that didn't work out :-)
16:49:21 <ehird> may be apocryphal I think i heard it on reddit
16:49:48 <fizzie> Didn't that alternative C++ syntax (SPECS) adopt ^ for pointers because it's more pointy than the old *?
16:51:00 <fizzie> I guess the rationale ("^ is more pointy") is not in the specification, though. At least explicitly.
16:51:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err "cabbagepatch variable"? I'm pretty sure I saw it in the -96 spec, but I don't want to loose the location I'm at in the file atm
16:51:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Err, are you on a single-tasking OS or something?
16:51:55 <AnMaster> I found the first trefunge mention
16:51:58 <ehird> Deewiant: It's called emacs
16:52:05 <ehird> I don't think you can open the same file twice in emacs
16:52:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know what that term means
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16:52:39 <AnMaster> No results found for "cabbagepatch variable".
16:52:59 <AnMaster> Did you mean: "cabbage patch variable" -> No results found for "cabbage patch variable".
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16:53:40 <AnMaster> right you can of course get different views of same file in emacs
16:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant: fact is however I was using less
16:54:15 <Deewiant> I wasn't talking about emacs, I was talking about your OS
16:54:18 <ehird> ^Zup enter /cabbage<ENTER>
16:54:24 <Deewiant> AFAIK less doesn't delete the file while it's viewing it
16:54:32 <Deewiant> Yeah, so you'd rather have me do it :-P
16:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot gnu less supports --self-destruct
16:55:04 <AnMaster> so you don't have to eat the paper
16:55:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was hoping you would happen to remember it
16:55:59 <Deewiant> I like the idea of an alcoholistic delta command. I can see it now: not
16:55:59 <Deewiant> only does the actual number added to each command change, but the program
16:55:59 <Deewiant> counter weaves around, occasionally hitting things and saying "ow" and
16:55:59 <Deewiant> "sorry, policeman, I'm drot nunk and I spasn't weeding!"
16:56:21 <ehird> spasn't weeding? I wasn't having spasms while on weed.
16:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could add that to a fingerprint in 98
16:58:19 <Deewiant> All of -96 could be a fingerprint in 98.
16:58:40 <ehird> everything could be a fingerprint in 98
16:58:54 <AnMaster> Each pane can have a different instruction on each side. The Program Counter
16:58:54 <AnMaster> would follow in a straight line along the surface of the pane. If a pane was
16:58:54 <AnMaster> blocking its way in front of it, it would turn upwards and follow it. If there
16:58:54 <AnMaster> was no pane to walk onto, it would 'fall' over the edge and either go downwards
16:58:54 <AnMaster> round the corner, or flip upside-down onto the other side of the pane.
16:59:10 <AnMaster> "To help you visualise this, imagine a rubik's cube with Befunge instructions drawn on the edges."
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17:00:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi. I don't get IWC today. Care to provide "IWC explained"?
17:03:10 <Deewiant> He's worried about Death of Being Stared At Angrily By A Giant Frog
17:03:26 <oerjan> wow so he didn't disappear for good after all
17:03:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. But it seems to be referencing something from popular culture
17:03:55 <AnMaster> but I have no idea what it is referencing
17:03:56 <ehird> Your feelings suck
17:04:22 <oerjan> Deewiant: Head Paradox, too, i expect
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17:10:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems asiekierka disliked your interpreter btw?
17:11:07 <ehird> asie is a fickle person.
17:11:08 <Deewiant> If he can't run it I'm not surprised :-P
17:11:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could run it even on a sparc I think. Just use qemu's support for emulating other architectures.
17:12:07 <AnMaster> assuming qemu works on non-x86 (which iirc it does)
17:12:18 <Deewiant> Of course you can run it on anything if you emulate, that's the whole point of an emulator. But then you're not really running it on the environment the emulator is running in.
17:13:32 <ehird> I think I'll write my own browser. Why? Indeed, why.
17:14:03 <Deewiant> Writing a reasonably-sized program.
17:14:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think there is a specific reference anyway, diaries are everywhere in fiction
17:14:30 <Deewiant> Befunge-96 is a bizarre, half-formed, misfeatured, brain-damaged
17:14:30 <Deewiant> standard that appears to have been written at 3:00 in the morning. The
17:14:30 <Deewiant> standard itself was written by Chris Pressey, and appears on his site
17:14:30 <Deewiant> (see question 5). Do not write in it! Do not bother to implement it!
17:14:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, right. But it seemed more than that
17:14:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's probably a trope
17:14:57 <AnMaster> btw, do any of you write a diary in real life? Or know someone who does.
17:15:15 <Deewiant> Given that it took 4 months for people to completely dismiss -96... I'm not going to implement it :-P
17:15:23 <AnMaster> it seems rather uncommon outside fiction...
17:15:39 <ehird> Have pretty much replaced diaries for TEH NU GEN.
17:15:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: Anne Frank made one, i hear
17:15:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that is less private. a diary is not public like a blong
17:15:58 <ehird> oerjan: pfft, like a dirty jew could be clever enough to write
17:15:59 <ehird> pull the other one
17:16:04 <ehird> they couldn't even figure out vowels
17:16:16 <AnMaster> though they do have a similar use
17:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: kids are less private. there are probably blogs with details that would be considered only suitable for a diary years ago
17:20:08 <Deewiant> C compilers back then were a pile of incompatibilities
17:20:16 <Deewiant> tried PCC (a shareware compiler), but then I realized it is
17:20:16 <Deewiant> missing STRING.H. I tried Microsoft Quick C, but it does not
17:20:17 <Deewiant> seem to support srand() and rand() commands.
17:21:12 <Deewiant> Not the pcc you're thinking of.
17:21:36 <ehird> lol@not supporting rand
17:22:01 <Slereah> I support Ayn Rand all the way
17:22:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so there is some stuff discussing 97 but where is the 97 spec?
17:22:58 <AnMaster> not on the list as far as I can find
17:23:08 <Deewiant> Why do you ask me? If it's not there it's not there.
17:24:12 <Deewiant> FUNGINOMY: The practice of fully naming fungoids (Cartitoribefungoid is the
17:24:13 <Deewiant> full name for Befunge-93, and it looks like Befunge-97 will be
17:24:13 <Deewiant> Cartispheribefungoid. Both implementations are Cartefungoids - Cartesian
17:24:13 <Deewiant> FUNGINOMINOMY: The process of coming up with words like "funginomy."
17:24:42 <AnMaster> "well, this is really sick, but I had a thought..
17:24:42 <AnMaster> it could be a form of encapsulation, making sure that any PC that enters that
17:24:42 <AnMaster> block of code has to do it through the right port (which will global-shift
17:24:42 <AnMaster> it correctly) or get fucked up. Otherwise someone could hit it slightly off
17:24:42 <AnMaster> and end up skipping vital steps of your process."
17:24:54 <AnMaster> but this sounds extremely weird
17:25:05 <ehird> Cartitoribefungoid?
17:25:08 <ehird> That's an awesome name for -93
17:25:38 <ehird> That's not very funge-soundin
17:25:55 <Deewiant> Since I guess it is Cartesian.
17:27:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for `Here's the list of "what it all means."`, list of very short names/descriptions for Befunge-97 instructions at the time
17:27:17 <oerjan> it's a shark programming language
17:27:32 <AnMaster> I think this might be the start of the idea of storage offset
17:27:40 <Deewiant> 80,25-Cartefinitoribefunge-93.
17:28:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Storage offset-related ideas were hashed quite early there, I think.
17:28:35 <Deewiant> Somebody said that a new thread should access relative to where it was born
17:28:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any idea of what the thread where you can find this in:
17:28:50 <AnMaster> Can we leave it for "Befunge-97" or perhaps "Befunge-97: The Director's Cut"
17:28:50 <AnMaster> ("The Truly Twisted Compile?") :-)
17:29:01 <AnMaster> so what is that thread about. I can't figure it out
17:29:19 <Deewiant> >Goddess, that's sick. But I think it's sufficiently befunged.
17:29:31 <Deewiant> You can work your way back can't you?
17:29:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried but I can't find the start of that thread
17:30:10 <Deewiant> Well, if befunge is to be multiple-PC'ed, you could have the "global"
17:30:10 <Deewiant> attributes affect only particular PC's (eg, have them as fields in
17:30:10 <Deewiant> PC structs). That way, a "global increment" would only affect a particular
17:30:33 <ehird> can't you lot import it into a mail client?
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17:30:58 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I guess I could try to open it in mutt
17:31:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:31:26 <AnMaster> except this mutt is set to work on maildir style mailboxes by default
17:33:03 <Deewiant> Hahaha, a Java Befunge-93 interpreter which uses strings as indices into a hash table for infinite space
17:33:10 <Deewiant> /*NEED AN OBJECT FOR A KEY ANYWAYS..WHY NOT A STRING?*/
17:33:19 <Deewiant> return new String(String.valueOf(_x) +","+ String.valueOf(_y));
17:33:24 <ehird> NEED UPPERCASE COMMENTS..WHY NOT USE TWO-DOT ELLIPSES?
17:33:27 <Deewiant> Maybe because it's a bad idea? :-D
17:33:42 <Deewiant> I love the way he creates 6 strings in one line
17:33:48 <Deewiant> In order to index a hash table
17:34:20 <Deewiant> ehird: From the mouth of Christopher Lahey himself: cartinfinilahebefunge
17:34:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Beautiful.
17:34:36 <ehird> http://www.christopherlahey.com/ ey
17:34:46 <ehird> "ASP.NET Development"
17:34:53 <Deewiant> Christopher James Lahey <clahey@umich.edu>
17:35:10 <ehird> ah, googling suggests it's not the same person
17:35:28 <Deewiant> Interesting, his name is pronounced /lehi/
17:35:44 <Deewiant> Stress on the first syllable, too.
17:36:57 <Deewiant> But anyway: "As prescribed in the Hawaii Admission Act that granted Hawaiian statehood, the federal government recognizes Hawaii to be the official state name."
17:37:44 <pikhq> So the glottal stop is implicit. Got it. :p
17:38:06 <Deewiant> Actually, before that, pasting this:
17:38:07 <Deewiant> Another thought on Quantefungoids (Quantum Mechanics):
17:38:07 <Deewiant> How about T is like a subatomic particle decay? That is, the PC is split
17:38:07 <Deewiant> into two PC's (or ip's if that's your cup of tea), one going (relative)
17:38:07 <Deewiant> left, one going right. All delta-commands either PC further encounters are
17:38:10 <Deewiant> listened to IN MIRROR SYMMERTRY BY BOTH PC's. Yes, Quantefunge could be
17:38:12 <Deewiant> the first programming language ever to implement spooky action at a
17:38:37 <AnMaster> From: "Chris Pressey" <cats-eye@cats-eye.com>
17:38:38 <AnMaster> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
17:39:36 <ehird> Watercooling uses such creepy terms. "Fill and bleed".
17:40:05 <GregorR> Anybody written a program in ShaFuck yet? :P
17:40:38 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
17:40:54 <GregorR> Hey, don't get mad at me for YOUR incompetence.
17:40:55 <ehird> GregorR: describe?
17:40:59 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
17:41:03 <ehird> find sha1(x)=y(bf prog)
17:41:11 <ehird> when y is interpreted as binary
17:41:41 <GregorR> But I wrote an interpreter and everything!
17:41:48 <GregorR> And nobody's written any code! :(
17:42:23 <oerjan> the syntax is a little awkward to get just right, you see
17:42:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, err does it mean interpreter tries to calculate the corresponding program for a sha1 sum?
17:42:57 <GregorR> AnMaster: If by "calculate" you mean "just run", then yes.
17:43:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, I meant finding a string corresponding to the sum
17:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: your 1024 byte program is a string
17:44:08 <ehird> the interpreter calculates
17:44:15 <ehird> and runs bf as brainfuck, comments not allowed
17:44:17 <GregorR> Yeah, there's no math to that. You take the sum, and interpret it as a string.
17:44:25 <ehird> in case you haven't realized yet, it's a bit hard to write a program for
17:44:41 <GregorR> If by "hard" you mean "quite literally impossible within the lifespan of the universe" :P
17:44:41 <AnMaster> I just didn't figure out which direction it was done
17:44:47 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/eso/ this page is funny
17:45:09 <GregorR> It used to work great, but I can never align it right now >_<
17:45:25 <ehird> it looks like a geocities page
17:46:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, why are you using two layers, it would be easier to just put it inline
17:47:00 <GregorR> It's a different color. It would actually be a fair PITA to put it inline. Plus that makes copy/paste useless.
17:47:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, you need an extra newline before FYB, and then one before ORK
17:47:58 <AnMaster> other than that it looks fine in konqueror
17:48:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, the problem is that certain browsers were displaying the boldness weird. I'm fixing it now to just not use bold (why did I not do that in the first place? :P )
17:48:36 * ehird configures the most expensive Mac possible: $87,247.
17:48:57 <GregorR> ehird: That'd better come with free blowjobs.
17:49:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, ah you added the missing newlines
17:49:26 <ehird> Admittedly, it's an Xserve with $49,995 "Alliance" Apple support, a service part kit, a $18,999 Promise VTrak E-Class 16x 450GB SAS RAID subsystem (7.2TB), an unlimited managed systems remote desktop kit,
17:49:29 <ehird> all the display adaptors,
17:49:31 <ehird> TWO power supplies,
17:49:38 <ehird> a dual-channel 4gb fibre card
17:49:41 <ehird> and a quad-channel of the same
17:49:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: No, the problem is that /some browsers/ made bold lines take up more space, so things got wonky.
17:49:51 <ehird> 3 1TB 7.2k rpm ones with a raid card
17:49:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, those are buggy IMO :P
17:49:59 <ehird> 24GB (6x4GB) ddr3 ecc ram
17:50:08 <ehird> and 2 x 2.93ghz quad core Nehalem xeons
17:50:18 <ehird> All for the LOW LOW LOW price of $87,247!
17:51:05 <ehird> It's practically free.
17:51:52 <ehird> Just a bit of price from free.
17:54:08 <ehird> "This Auction is for 3 x Apple power Mac G3 400Mhz, 128 Ram" for £1.04 on eBay.
17:54:16 <ehird> Damn selling shit on ebay is stupid :-P
17:55:08 <ehird> (I was trying to find the most expensive mac possible and the least expensive mac possible)
17:55:32 <ehird> $1.56 to $87,247. Apple's covered all the market.
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17:59:16 <oerjan> "Best quality organic fertilizer, bovine based"
18:00:58 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, you can buy far more expensive computers than that.
18:01:21 <GregorR> ehird: My point being that they haven't "covered all the market"
18:01:22 <ehird> That is the singlemost expensive computer you can buy from apple.com
18:01:40 <ehird> GregorR: They've covered about 99% of it, then, at least :P
18:01:51 <impomatic> Have some info about CoreLife now, the second 2 dimensional programming language: http://corewar.co.uk/corelife/
18:02:02 <ehird> I'm not sure supercomputers like the RoadRunner can count as (a) one computer (b) a market of any kind
18:02:10 <GregorR> Somebody should reimplement that in JS.
18:04:39 <impomatic> CoreLife in JS, that'd be great :-)
18:05:18 <impomatic> Just submitted it to reddit to see what kind of comments it gets.
18:06:12 <oerjan> impomatic: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Biota
18:06:24 <oerjan> also, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages
18:06:45 <pikhq> Power Mac G3 for $1.04? Hot damn.
18:06:54 <ehird> pikhq: Three of them!
18:06:59 * pikhq needs to upgrade his PII router.
18:07:01 <ehird> pikhq: And yeah, it only has one bid, but 22 hours to go
18:07:13 <ehird> (a) seller refuses to give
18:07:17 <ehird> (b) price shoots up
18:07:19 <ehird> (c) miracle happens
18:07:47 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
18:07:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Allow me to try to make an absurdly expensive PC...
18:07:55 <ehird> Sorting ebay sections by "Price + P&P: lowest first" is a nice way to prey on people's innate disability to recognize what things are worth
18:08:21 <ehird> "2x MAC OSX CDROMS V10.2"
18:08:49 <ehird> pikhq: With 2 x Nehalems, just enable hyperthreading = 16 threads at once
18:09:03 <ehird> You definitely want to work in multiples of Xeon Nehalem 3.2ghzs
18:09:22 <ehird> and that's from newegg
18:09:24 <pikhq> Well, yeah. If we're talking expensive, we're going with Intel.
18:09:36 <pikhq> (unless AMD decided to make chips out of gold?)
18:09:37 <ehird> the i7 of same speed is just $1k
18:09:38 <lifthrasiir> well i fell asleep too early and wake up right now (2:10 AM here). :|
18:09:45 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: (as a reply that should be done 6 hours ago) oh well, you know tkbf93? :p
18:09:50 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117179
18:10:01 <ehird> pikhq: Get 4 of them.
18:10:13 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I have a copy of it :-P
18:10:15 <pikhq> I'll get more if there's a motherboard that can handle it.
18:10:24 <ehird> pikhq: Also, for each one, get a Megahalems from Prolimatech: http://www.prolimatech.com/products/megahalems.html
18:10:32 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: And it segfaulted on chess.bef :-P
18:10:32 <ehird> pikhq: It's not on newegg, but it costs about $80 iirc
18:10:46 <ehird> pikhq: So yeah, pretty expensive heatsink
18:11:01 <ehird> $320 for 16 cores and you still need to buy fans :-)
18:11:07 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Is it 64-bit clean? I didn't try 32-bit, maybe that's the reason?
18:11:22 <ehird> pikhq: I'll help you find some megaexpensive ram, ey?
18:11:27 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i cannot remember all the detail now.
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18:13:44 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Looks like it uses just int so it should be safe
18:13:54 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: hmm it seems to have growable (singly-linked) stack at least
18:14:24 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Ah, I was wondering what Z was :-)
18:14:55 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:15:05 <Deewiant> Since you're closing the file only when you exit you might as well have made that exit(0)...
18:15:36 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: anyway that was a holy crap. i could write better thing now... in terms of length of program. ;)
18:17:06 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: if you want to see more horrible thing, see http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/angolmois-1.0/angolmois.c
18:18:08 <Deewiant> 00manifest.i@angolmois-1.0: no match found
18:18:27 <lifthrasiir> try this: http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/22549e0cee7a/angolmois.c
18:18:28 <Deewiant> http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/a49bf45b49ef/angolmois.c
18:18:46 <lifthrasiir> more recent de-obfuscated version is quite readable. but 1.0 was horrible.
18:19:27 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: the name esotope is a portmanteau of esoteric and isotope, popped from my head someday.
18:20:04 <lifthrasiir> and DSL idea is good, but that could need heavy canonicalization that is yet not good in current phase. anyway thanks for suggestion.
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18:20:51 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I got the idea from the optimiser DSL "oil" found in ick
18:23:04 <Deewiant> languages (like, C and Perl) really are Unefungoids.
18:24:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Befunge-97 spec is there
18:24:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Edit #2 (rough) - Jun 5 Chris Pressey"
18:25:07 <Deewiant> As I thought, directives contain =
18:25:37 <Deewiant> I knew I wasn't thinking just about Mini-Funge :-P
18:26:22 <AnMaster> ok, don't have time to read it right away, going afk for a bit. I guess I will put them cut out specs (and the original file) up somewhere, with permission from the person you got the file from
18:26:29 <Deewiant> Some nice multithreaded instructions there
18:26:54 <Deewiant> Funky blocking is provided by Y "Merge Threads".
18:27:00 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: back to the angolmois, it has an embedded font; it parses game data file itself and generates all the surfaces on the fly. i wasted my time a lot 5 years ago, and never want to do such thing more XD
18:27:09 <impomatic> Hmmm... time to go, it's a quiz night :-(
18:27:19 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:27:29 <Deewiant> In Befunge-97, any existing command (see Appendix A) can be redefined in
18:27:29 <Deewiant> one of three ways: rebinding it to another existing Befunge command with B
18:27:29 <Deewiant> "Bind Command", defining a routine with D "Define Routine", or defining it
18:27:29 <Deewiant> to a runtime library call with L "Bind Library Call".
18:28:34 <Deewiant> Library calls look like just implementation-dependant FFI
18:28:38 <fizzie> Heh, five different types of wrapping you can select from.
18:30:41 <Deewiant> *Monefungoid: like a Unefungoid but only capable of going one direction
18:30:41 <Deewiant> (the IP can't move backwards.) 6502 Assembly language is a monefungoid.
18:30:41 <Deewiant> (I considered Polariziunefungoid but discarded it for obvious reasons.)
18:30:42 -!- tombom has joined.
18:32:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FWIW that's not the latest version, he updates it later but only links to his now-defunct web site.
18:42:14 <Deewiant> Hah, queuemode got added to Befunge-97
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18:50:31 <ehird> Deewiant: Me and pikhq's megarig is currently at $22,790.56 for CPUs, mobo, RAM, CPU coolers, thermal compound and graphics cards
18:50:38 <ehird> We're nowhere near done :-)
18:51:00 <ehird> Deewiant: $6,239 of RAM.
18:51:06 <ehird> ... only DDR2, though, but...
18:51:14 <ehird> 8 CPUs of 4 cores each.
18:51:23 <ehird> We had to buy a $553 expansion card for the mobo to support more CPUs and RAM
18:51:24 <Deewiant> Where'd you find a mobo with 8 sockets? O_o
18:51:27 <ehird> The RAM is in 32 sticks
18:51:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Nope, 4 sockets
18:51:34 <ehird> And an expansion card using two pci x16
18:51:39 <ehird> That gives more RAM and CPU sockets
18:51:43 <pikhq> As hypertransport slots.
18:51:46 <ehird> AMD's more expensive
18:51:50 <ehird> Because Intel only do dual motherboards
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18:52:20 <ehird> Most Expensive CPUs As Power Goes Upwards: Intel AMD
18:54:17 <ehird> Deewiant: we just spend $141.96 on RAM fans.
18:54:26 <ehird> Four of them, to cool our 32 RAM sticks.
18:54:47 <Deewiant> How many decibels do you estimate that thing is at?
18:55:04 <pikhq> No, but I bet it's going to hit 100.
18:55:05 <ehird> Deewiant: So far, probably about 60dB or thereabouts
18:55:17 <pikhq> (the air can only handle 180dB or so)
18:55:28 <ehird> That's 8 CPU fans, 4 RAM fans, and 2 stock graphics card fans
18:55:35 <ehird> Apparently the RAM fans are horribly noisy from a review
18:55:41 <ehird> Deewiant: We have 8 of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103056
18:55:48 <ehird> I'm not sure they'd fit, but we can just mod them if not, right?
18:56:09 <ehird> Deewiant: It's a GTX 285
18:56:12 <ehird> It's only been out since december
18:56:19 <ehird> And also, VGA coolers top out at around $50 on newegg
18:56:22 <ehird> Deewiant: nothing supports it
18:56:33 <Deewiant> My cooler supports up to the X1300 or so
18:56:36 <pikhq> And we don't care about $50.
18:56:42 <ehird> $50 isn't worth it.
18:56:43 <Deewiant> It fit just fine, after removing a bit of the heatsink
18:56:45 <ehird> There are bigger fish.
18:56:46 <pikhq> We're spending more on SATA cables.
18:56:53 <ehird> And stock GPU coolers are really fucking loud anyway ;-)
18:57:09 <pikhq> (I assume we'll max out the onboard SATA and the RAID card, right?)
18:57:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Me and pikhq trying to build the most expensive computer, ever.
18:57:23 <ehird> We're spending $6k just on RAM.
18:57:38 <ehird> OK, so pikhq, we have processors, motherboard, cpu expansion card, RAM, ram fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound and video cards.
18:57:52 <ehird> I think, I think we should go buy some expensive harddrives
18:57:55 <pikhq> I'll look at hard drives, you look at RAID cards?
18:58:04 <ehird> I'll look at hard drives
18:58:05 <Deewiant> For RAID cards I recommend Areca
18:58:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: We don't have spare PCI slots any more.
18:58:17 <ehird> AnMaster: comes with the deal
18:58:18 <Deewiant> I think they're on the high end of things
18:58:24 <ehird> pikhq: THe ramsans go into pci
18:58:25 <AnMaster> ehird, AND just do IBM RoadRunner but with twice as many CPUs. That will be more expensive I bet
18:58:31 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not a computer
18:58:46 <pikhq> Our 8 CPUs are using two PCIe, the GPUs are using two more, and we have another PCI slot for the RAID.
18:58:47 <ehird> I'll find the most expensive SATA harddrives
18:58:58 <ehird> Probably an SSD, mayb
18:59:19 <pikhq> Or some absurdly speedy 1.5TB drive.
18:59:35 <ehird> The most expensive single harddrive on newegg
18:59:40 <ehird> LEt's look at the...
19:00:00 <ehird> pikhq: Something like 64GB
19:00:10 <ehird> pikhq: How many sata slots do we have?
19:00:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Because this is epic.
19:00:21 <pikhq> 8 on the mobo, dunno on the RAID.
19:00:26 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck off
19:00:38 <ehird> pikhq: OK, so $6,392 of SSD madness.
19:00:49 <ehird> pikhq: A whopping 512GB of storage.
19:01:01 <pikhq> Get an SATA RAID card and stick a 2TB drive on there.
19:01:16 <AnMaster> (For best viewing experience please use a monospace font.)
19:01:25 <ehird> pikhq: Maybe we should fill EVERY SLOT with a SATA RAID card.
19:01:29 <ehird> And fill those cards with X25-Es
19:01:41 <pikhq> Y'mean, instead of the graphics card?
19:01:46 <pikhq> I think I approve.
19:01:53 <ehird> Can't you get SATA raid things
19:01:55 <ehird> They go direct into SATA
19:02:28 <ehird> pikhq: the top single areca raid card is $1,599
19:02:35 <ehird> and I loathe to lose graphics cards
19:02:39 <ehird> But, um, we'll use onboard video, right?
19:02:49 <ehird> So we want two of them.
19:02:59 <ehird> The fucking RAID card. Has a fan.
19:03:08 <ehird> This RAID card. Is the most powerful RAID card on the planet.
19:03:10 <fizzie> Gahs this library is very unfun to install.
19:03:16 <fizzie> # This file is part of SEP's set of GNU make rules for painless compilation
19:03:16 <fizzie> # This file overrides defaults that are incorrect for the SUN4 architecture
19:03:22 <fizzie> SYSLIB= /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/egcs-2.91.66/libg2c.a -lm
19:03:22 <Deewiant> ehird: Interesting that your HDs are so cheap
19:03:33 <fizzie> That line is not making this very painless.
19:03:42 <Deewiant> I found some things that cost 2000 €
19:03:49 <ehird> Internal Connectors6xSFF-8087
19:03:54 <ehird> Are those the harddrive thingies
19:04:23 <ehird> I wanna know how many HDs can go in one of these cards
19:04:29 <ehird> We're still filling the sata ports with x25-E
19:04:34 <ehird> and we'll fill these raids with them too
19:04:58 <pikhq> It's a SAS connector.
19:05:11 <ehird> pikhq: So we can't connect SATA drives?
19:05:15 <ehird> ... is there an adaptor?
19:05:19 <ehird> We can buy 6 adaptors, you see.
19:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are trying to make it as loud as well?
19:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: That's just a bonus.
19:05:35 <ehird> Cost takes precedent.
19:05:42 <AnMaster> ehird, how much would replacing this with passive cooling cost
19:05:46 <pikhq> SATA drives can be hooked to SAS controllers.
19:05:50 <ehird> AnMaster: $infinity for passive cooling.
19:05:51 <pikhq> Just not the other way around.
19:05:58 <ehird> $-something for water cooling
19:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, go for replacing it all with water cooling then!
19:06:10 <ehird> It would cost less.
19:06:15 <ehird> You can't beat $1,119 on fans and heatsinks for the CPUs.
19:06:22 <fizzie> SFF-8087 is something you can connect four SATA drives into, I think.
19:06:23 <ehird> pikhq: So one card holds 6 drives?
19:06:32 <ehird> pikhq: So we need 12 more drives.
19:06:51 <fizzie> Well, at least there exists a four-port SFF-8087 connector; I'm not sure if they all are like that.
19:06:52 <ehird> pikhq: $15,980 on storage.
19:06:58 <AnMaster> ehird, sure the power supply can handle it?
19:07:06 <ehird> AnMaster: we'll have two
19:07:06 <pikhq> We can get a PCI RAID card, right?
19:07:12 <ehird> pikhq: these are pci
19:07:17 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151053
19:07:23 <ehird> And each does 6 drives
19:07:24 <pikhq> You said "PCI x8". Which is PCIe.
19:07:32 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm, you can't fit them inside the case then right? Unless you are using some weird server case with a backup power supply
19:07:42 <AnMaster> but in those cases it is for power supply
19:07:48 <ehird> pikhq: RAID cards + SSDs currently total to $19,179.98
19:07:54 <ehird> pikhq: I'll find the most expensive regular PCI raid card
19:08:13 <ehird> pikhq: I think we may need to invent a new kind of mathematics to calculate this price
19:08:25 <ehird> pikhq: how much IDE shit does our mobo have?
19:08:32 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, if it is that "ARC-1680IX-24 PCIe x8 SAS RAID Card" card you can connect 24 drives in it. Four to each SAS connector.
19:08:35 <ehird> And you can buy SATA←→IDE adaptors, right?
19:09:14 <AnMaster> what OS will you use? I bet window would be the most expensive OS to use on it
19:09:19 <ehird> AnMaster: No way man
19:09:28 <ehird> 56 fucking drives.
19:09:39 <ehird> Okay, pikhq? Find the most expensive SATA to IDE cable, please.
19:09:45 <ehird> pikhq: Then we'll add one more SSD in to it, you see.
19:09:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thousand or so a seat.
19:09:57 <pikhq> ehird: Two SSDs, you mean.
19:10:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, using windows would be cheaper indeed...
19:10:03 <ehird> pikhq: You said one IDE port.
19:10:04 <pikhq> One IDE handles two drives.
19:10:12 <ehird> OK, find two adaptors, pikhq? Or one.
19:10:16 <ehird> Just find the adaptors we need.
19:10:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Nice.
19:10:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Will you buy THIS rig for us?
19:10:27 <ehird> It's currently at...
19:10:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $70,016.52
19:10:54 <ehird> And no way are we done.
19:10:59 <ehird> pikhq: Go find that adaptor, boy.
19:11:03 <ehird> I'll find a regular PCI raid card.
19:11:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $44k of SSDs
19:11:13 <ehird> but the ram is $6k
19:11:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood, we're spending some $6,000 on RAM.
19:11:25 <ehird> the processors are $14k, bsmntbombdood
19:11:29 <ehird> eight four-core opterons
19:11:37 <pikhq> ehird: Those RAID cards each have an external SAS slot as well.
19:11:47 <ehird> pikhq: let's figure that out later
19:11:51 <ehird> GET THAT ADAPTOR BITCH :P
19:12:15 <ehird> Hey pikhq, we only have one PCI slot right?
19:12:18 <ehird> 19:11 ehird: eight four-core opterons , AnMaster
19:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you can't do more?
19:12:51 <ehird> pikhq: Hmm. Not worth it. $269.99 is the most expensive raid thing for PCI
19:12:58 <ehird> I'm sure we can find a better use
19:12:58 <AnMaster> I mean the most expensive mobo might not be the one that allows the most expensive equipment!
19:13:04 <ehird> pikhq: it is worth it
19:13:07 <ehird> since it adds another ssd
19:13:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so a cheaper mobo might result in a higher total cost
19:13:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151085
19:13:18 <ehird> AnMaster: We know, goddamn.
19:13:20 <ehird> We've played with permutations
19:13:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: This mobo supports the most CPUs.
19:13:36 <pikhq> We've got 32 freaking RAM slots.
19:13:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
19:13:49 <ehird> pikhq: there are no PCI raid cards
19:13:51 <ehird> pikhq: found that adaptor?
19:13:51 -!- cherez has joined.
19:13:56 <pikhq> In a motherboard that supports more than one CPU slot.
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19:14:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: turned out cheaper
19:14:11 <ehird> due to only being able to have 2 procs
19:14:27 <bsmntbombdood> don't go for money...go for performance without hinderance from money
19:14:32 <ehird> We're going for money.
19:14:45 <ehird> We can do performance tomorrow :P
19:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what form factor is that mobo O_o
19:15:05 <pikhq> It is also very high performance.
19:15:12 <ehird> AnMaster: We have a PCIe expansion card for the 4 more CPUs
19:15:20 <pikhq> We've got 4 GB per core.
19:15:35 <pikhq> ehird: It's a hypertransport card.
19:15:50 <pikhq> AMD has a freaky way of doing Hypertransport via PCIe slots.
19:15:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dude
19:15:53 <ehird> that's 128GB in total
19:15:56 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Largest DDR2 stick.
19:16:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes
19:16:11 <ehird> it's most expensive
19:16:15 <ehird> 4GB ddr2 is highly expensive
19:16:29 <ehird> God, bsmntbombdood, we're going for PRICE.
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19:16:51 <pikhq> We've spent over an hour on it.
19:16:52 <ehird> Yes it is. But we're doing it, you globmonkey.
19:16:56 <ehird> pikhq: found that adaptor?
19:17:08 <pikhq> ehird: I'm looking for it.
19:17:40 <ehird> Argh, they're all the wrong way around
19:18:25 <pikhq> We can go USB -> SATA, though...
19:18:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "contact for price"
19:18:35 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ide+sata+adapter&x=0&y=0
19:18:41 <ehird> Nippon Labs USB-SATA USB to IDE/SATA Adapter w/ power - Retail
19:18:43 <ehird> is the final connection
19:18:47 <ehird> SABRENT USB-DSC5 Serial ATA (SATA) or IDE 2.5" and 3.5" to USB 2.0 Cable Converter Adapter - Retail
19:18:59 <bsmntbombdood> why are you even considering usb or pata for anything?
19:19:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: shut up
19:19:07 <ehird> we're getting x25-Es
19:19:08 <ehird> and they're expensive
19:19:12 <ehird> and we want two more drives
19:19:16 <ehird> so we need to put IDE shit
19:19:16 <pikhq> How much was that x25-E?
19:19:18 <ehird> but the ssds only do sata
19:19:21 <ehird> pikhq: $700 or so a pop
19:19:26 <ehird> And we can do two more of them with these adaptors
19:19:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: STFU, we're getting 56 of them already
19:19:40 <ehird> with IDE we can get58
19:19:51 <ehird> pikhq: shall I add those adapters?
19:20:21 <pikhq> I think I found the normal IDE->SATA adaptors.
19:20:30 <ehird> pikhq: wrong way around
19:20:37 <ehird> we have a sata drive and want to plug it into ide
19:20:44 <ehird> we can do this by going via usb
19:20:54 <ehird> that's the way you do the diagram?
19:21:03 <ehird> pikhq: how much is it?
19:21:06 <ehird> via USB may be more expensive
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19:21:16 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200373 ?
19:21:23 <pikhq> But that's just plain silly.
19:21:26 <ehird> pikhq: ours is more expensive
19:21:29 <ehird> $39.98 for each drive
19:21:34 <pikhq> I mean, more so than what we've been doing previously.
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19:22:11 <bsmntbombdood> you can get external sata->sata raid cards can't you?
19:22:14 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200196 Also, this one is $26.99 per drive.
19:22:22 <ehird> we now have $46,342 in SSDs
19:22:39 <pikhq> Erm. That's just $26.99. Oh well.
19:22:46 <ehird> pikhq: want the current total?
19:23:06 <ehird> Processors, motherboard, CPU card, RAM, RAM fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound, RAID cards, IDE to SATA adapters, and drives
19:23:07 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200156 This is $30 per drive, though.
19:23:19 <ehird> hmm I'll add that then total
19:24:03 <ehird> WITH STORAGE: $72,674.41
19:24:07 <ehird> WITHOUT STORAGE: $26,332.41
19:24:13 <ehird> (that's JUST the ssds missing)
19:24:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Single system.
19:24:40 <ehird> that's if you RAID 0, of course
19:24:45 <ehird> 64GB per disk and 58 disks
19:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, RAID 1 them. More *wasted* money then
19:25:17 <ehird> pikhq: OK, I think we need some optical drives now?
19:25:24 <AnMaster> (RAID 1 does make sense, just not for *THAT* many drives)
19:25:29 <ehird> To burn and rip the family photos / music albums.
19:25:33 <ehird> You know, on this family PC.
19:25:34 <pikhq> Aren't there those SATA multiplexers?
19:25:39 <pikhq> ehird: Definitely.
19:25:47 <ehird> also, I think maxing out storage any further sux
19:25:51 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107
19:25:53 <ehird> it's almost like cheating
19:26:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what does that buy us
19:26:15 <ehird> it looks good, I just don't know what it does :-)
19:26:19 <ehird> also, it looks a bit too external
19:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, does the mobo actually have onboard video?
19:26:37 <ehird> AnMaster: We'll get the best fucking floppies in the universe.
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19:26:43 <ehird> It's a server board.
19:26:54 <ehird> $329.99 for the most expensive bluray burner
19:26:58 <ehird> pikhq: how many can we fit?
19:27:00 <bsmntbombdood> you can get 8 of those with your mobo, so 96 drives
19:27:03 <ehird> We've maxed out the slots, haven't we pikhq?
19:27:04 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827248014 Most expensive internal burner.
19:27:13 <AnMaster> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=13-151-085-S02&ISList=13-151-085-S01%2c13-151-085-S02%2c13-151-085-S03%2c13-151-085-S04%2c13-151-085-S05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813151085&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=TYAN%20S4985G3NR%20SSI%20MEB%20footprint%20Server%20Motherboard%20-%20Retail <--- *three* ethernet ports?
19:27:14 <pikhq> There's PCI SATA slots.
19:27:26 <ehird> pikhq: Just tell me how much free we have ;-)
19:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: OK, so only one burner.
19:27:46 <ehird> Do we need any adapter shit?
19:27:48 <pikhq> The external SAS slots on the RAID cards.
19:28:23 <pikhq> Each SAS slot is 4 SCSI slots.
19:28:49 <ehird> Do we need an adapter for the PCI slot thing, pikhq?
19:28:56 <bsmntbombdood> hopefully you are considering how to package this stuff
19:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, pikhq: case, what about case?
19:29:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: One absurdly massive case.
19:29:16 <pikhq> They make large enough cases.
19:29:16 <ehird> biggest case in the universe
19:29:17 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes I said that about a minute ago before
19:29:29 <ehird> just put it in a cardboard box
19:29:34 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107
19:29:54 <ehird> pikhq: have you got the adapter?
19:30:09 <ehird> pikhq: I kind of feel like we should cut back on storage, you can grow the price there pretty much unbounded
19:30:12 <pikhq> Not yet; will soon.
19:31:02 <bsmntbombdood> actually, i think you could arrange that external raid controller in a tree
19:31:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: see, that's the thing
19:31:19 <ehird> you can have pretty much infinite storage
19:31:23 <ehird> for pretty much infinite dollars
19:31:26 <ehird> where's the challenge?
19:31:31 <ehird> it's just free ... anti-money
19:31:32 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102080
19:31:41 <ehird> other components, now that takes skill to waste money
19:31:45 <bsmntbombdood> more interesting if you have to consider performance
19:31:51 <pikhq> Technically, it's a RAID card, but it can be used for JBOD.
19:32:40 <ehird> Time for the most expensive floppy drive
19:33:40 <ehird> pikhq: do you think we should cut back on the storage?
19:33:43 <ehird> It really is cheating
19:33:59 <pikhq> ehird: Replace those with those 2TB SATA drives.
19:34:11 <ehird> 2TB drives aren't expensive
19:34:11 <pikhq> We can at least have really silly stats while cutting back.
19:34:23 <ehird> pikhq: I think we should avoid spending much on storage
19:34:30 <ehird> $44k just on drives doesn't take any skill
19:34:33 <bsmntbombdood> you can get more expensive hard drives than the x25-e anyway
19:34:41 <ehird> also, priciest internal floppy is $7.99 so meh
19:34:45 <ehird> OK, let's cut back on storage.
19:34:47 <ehird> We still want the RAID cards.
19:35:01 <ehird> So we'll go for the most expensive non-solid-state drive.
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19:35:14 <ehird> Hopefully that should only add a few thousand.
19:35:18 <pikhq> 2TB SAS card I think.
19:35:34 <pikhq> 4 per RAID card, and the onboard SATA wouldn't be used...
19:35:38 * ehird picks regular SATA drives.
19:35:41 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102113
19:35:51 <ehird> STOP LINKING TO IT bsmntbombdood
19:35:55 <ehird> Storage is cheating. :P
19:36:12 <ehird> pikhq: 2TB regular speed drive, or 300GB 10k RPM drive. The latter is a velociraptor.
19:36:15 <ehird> I say the latter, because:
19:36:21 <ehird> 10k fucking RPM is loud.
19:36:53 <ehird> That's $13,339.42 in storage.
19:37:12 <ehird> pikhq: I think we'll need a fan per every 2 harddrives. We are putting these under load, right?
19:37:57 <ehird> $29.99 for a hard drive enclosure
19:38:00 <ehird> But we want fans too
19:38:38 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822332012
19:38:43 <ehird> pikhq: $22.99 for the most expensive HD cooler with a fan
19:38:46 <bsmntbombdood> i thought you could find an hdd more expensive than that
19:38:51 <ehird> $29.99 for the most expensive full stop, so not a big loss
19:38:58 <ehird> And it's ADJUSTABLE!
19:39:17 <ehird> pikhq: $1,333.42 on harddrive cooling.
19:39:35 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817122110
19:39:57 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to find the most expensive, highest-voltage power supplies.
19:40:04 <ehird> Actually, yeah, more.
19:40:10 <ehird> pikhq: Uh... issue./
19:40:16 <ehird> 58 harddrives. They need power.
19:40:22 <ehird> How many can one power supply do?
19:40:28 <ehird> We will need an awful lot of power supplies.
19:40:33 <ehird> pikhq: Wanna cut back on storage?
19:40:37 <ehird> As in, actually less drives? :-P
19:40:45 <ehird> So we can actually get this thing to POST
19:41:03 <ehird> iStarUSA IS-2000R4H1UP 2000W Redundant 1U Server Power Supply - Retail
19:41:25 <ehird> pikhq: ... even so...
19:41:30 <ehird> We need a bunch to power 58 drives.
19:41:33 <ehird> As in, it won't fit in a case.
19:41:34 <pikhq> I guess we're getting the 10U rack case? :p
19:41:39 <ehird> Fuck, I mean, 58 drives won't fit in a fucking case.
19:41:41 <bsmntbombdood> you are going to have trouble getting the psu physically close enough to the drives
19:41:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Exactly!
19:41:51 <ehird> We need less drives, pikhq.
19:42:07 <ehird> We need less drives too.
19:42:12 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817147073
19:42:18 <ehird> This thing doesn't seem to have many ports
19:42:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Bah.
19:42:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Give us a rackmount drive bay then.
19:42:35 <ehird> None of that tricky RAID stuff.
19:42:37 <ehird> We've handled that.
19:42:59 <pikhq> ehird: I'm searching for cases.
19:43:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $3,199 in RAID cards.
19:43:16 <ehird> Well, $139.99 extra
19:43:20 <ehird> For the bluray adapter RAID card thing
19:43:29 <ehird> pikhq: Srsly, I can find a case. :-P
19:43:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ... hmm. We can do that later.
19:43:50 <pikhq> Huh. There's *actually* 9U cases.
19:44:16 <ehird> AnMaster: $thousands
19:44:18 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161
19:44:27 <ehird> Does it come with case fans?
19:44:29 <ehird> We need case fans.
19:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, sure the case is large enough?
19:44:49 <ehird> AnMaster: We're putting the drives in external RAID rack mounts.
19:44:59 <ehird> Apart from the 10 for the SATA/IDE.
19:45:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't "one unit" thing for one computer then
19:45:07 <ehird> I'm sure we can fit 10 + an adapter.
19:45:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hell no!
19:45:22 <ehird> think of how heavy this will be
19:46:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the case is too small I think. And how would you mount the mobo in it
19:46:29 <ehird> It's not too small!
19:46:42 <pikhq> A 4U rackmount case alone can handle 24 disks.
19:46:49 <ehird> It's just 8 CPUs, some RAM, some RAM fans, some gigantic CPU fans and heatsinks and 10 drives.
19:46:59 <ehird> AnMaster: 35" x 24" x 23"
19:47:15 <ehird> How big do you think mobos are?
19:47:18 <bsmntbombdood> damn, the biggest rackmount cases newegg has are 4u
19:47:48 <ehird> AnMaster: the case is 88cm x 60cm x 58cm
19:48:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I just can't estimate distances in inches
19:48:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah. But. That's big, okay? :P
19:48:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811152124
19:49:01 <AnMaster> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161 says "Dimensions 35.44" x 24.22" x 23.63""?
19:49:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: We need something we can fit shit in.
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19:50:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it doesn't matter if our computer burns
19:50:08 <ehird> as long as it gives the POST beep, we've won
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19:54:26 <pikhq> I think we're done here.
19:54:38 <ehird> Well, yeah. We could go further but I've lost interest :P
19:54:47 <pikhq> $80,000 is enough. :p
19:55:44 <bsmntbombdood> and there is absolutely no practical use for this system
19:55:52 <ehird> Tomorrow I think we should go for "most powerful gaming computer ever". Then post a sale for it on an overclocking forum... plus a markup of a few hundred dollars.
19:55:56 <ehird> Watch the purchases roll in.
19:56:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yes there is.
19:56:40 <pikhq> Simulate a cluster.
19:57:12 <ehird> pikhq: cheaper to buy a cluster
19:57:27 <pikhq> But significantly less impressive and noisy.
19:57:45 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood, I beg to differ.
19:57:52 <pikhq> Blu-Ray disk *dumps*.
19:58:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Dude, it's just 16TB.
19:58:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: You could get a bloody porn collection that big, easy. :P
19:58:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: watch 58 vids from the porn collection without buffering all at once.
19:59:02 <pikhq> ehird: Blu-ray vids.
19:59:09 <ehird> Blu-ray porn dumps.
19:59:30 <pikhq> Compile Gentoo in an hour.
20:00:11 <pikhq> And you underestimate how freaking speedy Hypertransport is. :p
20:00:12 <Deewiant> I'd say the buses are the bottleneck
20:00:27 <pikhq> Though, yeah, at this point HT is actually a bottleneck.
20:00:35 <pikhq> (and that's actually damned impressive)
20:01:02 <Deewiant> What are the drives attached to?
20:01:03 <ehird> Do the Opterons do hyperthreading?
20:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: SATA, IDE, and various RAIDs.
20:01:10 <Deewiant> No, hyperthreading is an Intel thing.
20:01:12 <ehird> Two RAIDs, that is.
20:01:14 <pikhq> No. They do more CPUs.
20:01:34 <Deewiant> ehird: What is "a RAID" and what is it attached to
20:01:35 <fizzie> I would guess you can't saturate the whole hypertransport bus with just two PCIe 8x cards.
20:01:44 <ehird> A PCIe raid card, Deewiant.
20:01:54 <fizzie> That's 2*2000 MB/s in one direction.
20:02:05 <ehird> Deewiant: around $3k in total I think
20:02:07 <pikhq> There's also the onboard SATA.
20:02:11 <pikhq> Which I doubt is in the northbridge.
20:03:04 <pikhq> Since they're SAS cards driving SATA cards... A lot.
20:03:16 <Deewiant> Enough to saturate the PCI-E bus?
20:03:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: If I remember the model right. Six four-port interfaces.
20:03:43 <pikhq> Those PCIe cards are on a PCIe 4x slot.
20:04:14 <pikhq> No, the motherboards only offer 4x on those two slots.
20:04:16 <fizzie> Well, I haven't been following very closely.
20:04:27 <pikhq> (the 16x slots are being used for hypertransport)
20:04:40 <Deewiant> 24 drives will saturate that easily.
20:04:47 <fizzie> Well, then you definitely can't fill the whole hypertransport bus with disk activity.
20:05:08 <pikhq> Because the PCIe bus will be filled instead.
20:06:38 <fizzie> ./../include/mat_inc_d.H:13:22: error: iostream.h: No such file or directory
20:06:38 <fizzie> This is some annoyingly old code, I guess. Does removing "-pedantic" let it even a modern GCC find the silly "<foo.h> automagically imports std::" versions of C++ headers?
20:07:11 <ehird> lvcreate's failing
20:07:39 <ehird> I seem not to have device-mapper.
20:07:45 <ehird> I wonder if I need to modprobe something
20:07:53 <pikhq> modprobe device-mapper
20:08:02 <ehird> pikhq: Apparently I don't have that module.
20:08:05 <ehird> This is on a LiveCD.
20:08:12 <ehird> I'm trying to set up an LVM setup to install to.
20:08:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: Googling for that just finds people complaining about why their Hello world doesn't compile, and people telling them to use "using namespace std".
20:08:16 <ehird> I wonder if it is in a package.
20:08:35 <ehird> LVM: so intuitive it's unintuitive
20:08:42 <pikhq> Didn't realise; I've got the DM modules compiled in.
20:09:02 <ehird> fizzie: What do you need to do to have that loaded every time on bootup? I forget the file.
20:09:09 <pikhq> (easier than futzing with the initramfs to only have the modules I need to boot)
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20:10:06 <fizzie> You can put "dm_mod" in /etc/modules, that works in many systems. Although I guess it should be automagically loaded by udev or something; I've certainly never had to manually modprobe it. (Though maybe it autoloads only if it finds LVM volumes or something.)
20:10:13 <ehird> Yay, I have /dev/sda1 = /boot and /dev/sda2 = physical volume of /dev/osdrive with /dev/osdrive/root, /dev/osdrive/home
20:10:20 <pikhq> fizzie, my root filesystem is on LVM.
20:10:39 <ehird> Although, I will probably ... hm.
20:10:47 <pikhq> Then putting dm_mod in /etc/modules does nothing.
20:10:50 <ehird> On my real SSD, I'll only have /boot and a physical volume of /dev/osdrive containing /dev/osdrive/root.
20:10:54 <ehird> Do I actually need LVM for that?
20:11:02 <ehird> The guide here suggests so
20:11:15 <pikhq> ehird: No, but LVM is sexy.
20:11:29 <ehird> pikhq: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/
20:11:37 <ehird> It really seems to imply that LVM is needed to do the alignment.
20:11:38 <pikhq> Live migration of disks = Mmm.
20:12:11 <ehird> This thing is going to be horribly slow; putting SSD-tuned settings into a VM writing to a mechanical HD :-)
20:12:41 * ehird creates ext4 filesystems on the two osdrive things.
20:12:55 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think I should use for my 1gb /boot?
20:13:01 <ehird> I don't exactly need journaling on it
20:13:06 <ehird> Deewiant: it's what the blog post has
20:13:16 <Deewiant> Doesn't mean it's a good idea :-P
20:13:18 <ehird> Good enough for Theodore Ts'o, good enough for me. ;-)
20:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: What does journaling buy me on /boot?
20:13:35 <pikhq> Don't need it, but it's a good idea.
20:13:37 <Deewiant> Kernel developers probably have good reason to have a big /boot.
20:13:43 <ehird> Deewiant: True 'dat.
20:13:51 <Deewiant> Although I still think that's excessive. :-P
20:14:00 <pikhq> ehird: If you're writing to it when you crash, you haven't fucked it up.
20:14:24 <pikhq> Heck, mount that sucker with ordered; /boot is something you really don't want going.
20:14:40 <ehird> /boot isn't very vital.
20:14:52 <ehird> Can't boot? Stick in livecd, put kernel on there.
20:14:53 <Deewiant> Kind of sucks to find it broken when you reboot.
20:15:03 <ehird> Sure, I'm just saying it's not valuable
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20:15:16 <ehird> I wonder if the "stripe-width=32" will do anything on the olde-style-aligned /boot.
20:15:18 <Deewiant> It's not performance-sensitive either
20:15:23 <Deewiant> So there's no point in not journaling
20:15:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh but there is.
20:15:30 <ehird> Less writes to the SSD.
20:15:37 <ehird> Admittedly, that's barely anything :-)
20:15:47 <Deewiant> Thinking that way will just get you into trouble :-P
20:15:51 <ehird> I'll omit stripe-width. It's just /boot.
20:15:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, totally.
20:16:01 <ehird> I need to keep reminding myself that it's a fuckin' drive, it'll last years dammit.
20:16:12 <ehird> Worst case, SECURE ERASE the bugger and copy contents back on.
20:16:18 <pikhq> Just so long as you don't have swap on it.
20:16:29 <ehird> pikhq: I'm gonna have 12GB of RAM. No swap for me.
20:16:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Besides, SSDs are supposed to be better with SMART and such, knowing much more precisely when they're going to break.
20:16:55 <Deewiant> I don't know if that's the case in practice yet, though.
20:16:58 <ehird> It'd _slow_ me down... on the SSD, contribute to further wear and tear. On the mechanical HD? Iiiiiiiiiiiiiii'll geeeeeeeeeettt baccccccccccccck tooooooooooo yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
20:17:05 <pikhq> And their failure mode consists of "Uh, you can't write there."
20:17:14 <ehird> SSDs are really resilient.
20:17:49 <Deewiant> Depends on the firmware, I guess.
20:17:53 <ehird> OK, /arch/setup time.
20:18:02 <fizzie> I have this on-a-compact-flash-card system, and I haven't even bothered to think about anything flash-specific on it, even though the write-cycle-handling thing is probably something really really primitive compared to an actual "SSD drive" type of product. (Well, except putting everything that's going to be written more often than daily into tmpfs.)
20:18:11 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's assuming that you're completely out of write cycles.
20:18:27 <ehird> fizzie: Pfft, I'm going to have lots of stuff being written on /.
20:18:35 <ehird> Everything but /tmp and /home/ehird/media, probably.
20:18:48 <ehird> Probably, linux will have fully working TRIM support when I get this.
20:18:51 <ehird> So it won't be a big deal.
20:20:45 <ehird> ^_^, the Arch install program let me make the LVM setup just fine.
20:21:01 <ehird> I'll have to manually edit fstab for /tmp, ofc.
20:21:10 <ehird> But not on this install.
20:21:28 <ehird> AnMaster: you said you need a guide for LVM?
20:22:54 <ehird> Heh, my HD isn't liking this alignment stuff it's doing.
20:23:00 <ehird> Krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnkcluckcluckcluck.
20:23:26 <pikhq> The alignment stuff is for SSDs. ;)
20:23:33 <ehird> This is practice ;-)
20:23:48 <ehird> But the HD backing the VM storage isn't liking its antics.
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20:24:44 <Deewiant> Unsurprisingly, doing SSD alignment on an HD isn't very smart :-P
20:25:00 <ehird> It's not going to hurt anything, I imagine. Just be slow... which the VM already is, right?
20:25:19 <ehird> I doubt my HD is the bottleneck
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20:30:33 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what you do with it exactly
20:31:24 <ehird> http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console.
20:32:32 <pikhq> ehird, if there was a good framebuffer web browser, I would use a framebuffer console. ;p
20:32:49 <ehird> pikhq: you can even make it display graphics iirc
20:33:10 <pikhq> elinks doesn't do framebuffer.
20:33:16 <pikhq> That would be Links2.
20:33:23 <ehird> just run it as a normal console app?
20:33:23 <pikhq> Which doesn't even support CSS2.
20:33:34 <pikhq> Then it doesn't handle graphics.
20:33:48 <pikhq> Or complex Javascript.
20:33:51 <ehird> pikhq: just add a handler to run a framebuffer graphcis display when you choose an image
20:34:00 <ehird> and sheesh, that's not very framebuffer
20:34:05 <pikhq> What I run currently is based on Gecko.
20:34:19 <pikhq> "Not very framebuffer"...
20:34:56 <pikhq> I guess it's not very "graphical" either.
20:35:16 <fizzie> For the longest time I used a framebuffer console for just about anything; I guess the web going so multimedia was the major issue.
20:35:58 <pikhq> There's also the bit about my graphics card not handling widescreen via VESA.
20:36:00 <ehird> Hooray for WMs and graphics and mice.
20:36:10 <fizzie> I guess you could theoretically speaking run Firefox or something using the directfb GTK backend.
20:36:20 <pikhq> But then you're replacing X.
20:36:28 <pikhq> For no good reason.
20:36:54 <ehird> pikhq: Apart from X sucking, you mean.
20:37:03 <fizzie> Well, only for the web-browser, and at least switching between the console and the "fake-X" would be faster.
20:37:41 <ehird> Hmm. Arch seems to build its own kernel except with a binary.
20:37:42 <fizzie> Admittedly my framebuffer-console-using days were back when my display hardware was a Matrox G400 card, which worked pretty nicely with matroxfb; I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck with vesafb.
20:38:07 <fizzie> (Also mplayer had that G400-specific video acceleration, obviating the need for Xv.)
20:38:39 <fizzie> Well, Gxxx-specific, anyway. It wasn't just the 400.
20:38:45 <pikhq> Really, the main reason not to use the framebuffer aside from multimedia web stuff is vesa-fb sucks.
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20:39:00 <ehird> And because non graphical environments suck.
20:39:12 <pikhq> ehird, you're just dumb.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, they're bringing Scheme back: http://www.cs.hut.fi/~scheme/course-description.html
20:40:04 <pikhq> Also, a framebuffer is very much a graphical environment.
20:40:19 <ehird> It's a bad graphical environment.
20:40:20 <pikhq> It's just not an exceptionally complex one.
20:40:24 <ehird> That is mostly used for text.
20:40:36 <Deewiant> Lilja's there, unsurprisingly; he's a Haskell guy
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20:41:04 <ehird> OK, GNU/Arch/LVM/FakeSSD/BSDinit/ls/cp/RichardStallman'sBlood bootup is go.
20:41:05 <Deewiant> Which might explain why lazy evaluation is explicitly a goal, too
20:41:23 <ehird> ... No. No it did not.
20:41:34 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if I'll register for that
20:41:35 <ehird> It cannot find ze /dev/mapper/osdrive-root.
20:41:41 <ehird> fizzie: What's the file thing? modprobe?
20:41:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, laziness is in "latter part of SICP" too.
20:41:59 <ehird> Ha. Ha. Ha. The kernel rescue ramfs console has no ls.
20:42:01 <fizzie> ehird: If your root is on LVM, it's the initrd's responsibility for getting things loaded.
20:42:19 <ehird> fizzie: And it failed. It don't know shit about no /dev/mapper/blah.
20:42:33 <fizzie> Well, I don't know. If it's some Arch thing, then I definitely don't know.
20:42:51 <fizzie> I don't even know about Debian's initrd, since mkinitramfs or whatever has always built me a working one.
20:42:53 <ehird> I think it's just... Linux. :-P
20:43:08 <fizzie> No, the initrd contents are very distro-specific.
20:43:19 <ehird> I should probably boot up the live cd.
20:43:19 <fizzie> Or at least somewhat distro-specific.
20:43:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Debian's initrd has LVM stuff in it.
20:43:35 <ehird> pikhq: no pvscan on the ramfs
20:43:39 <ehird> maybe I should googol
20:43:45 <pikhq> And Gentoo requires you to use genkernel --do-lvm
20:43:47 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, so I've assumed, since it works.
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20:44:23 <ehird> pikhq: after reading that ssd alignment article, do you think LVM is needed? It seems to be but I can't figure out why
20:44:29 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:44:43 <pikhq> But LVM is sexy. :p
20:44:54 <ehird> I want to avoid it unless I need it for alignment :P
20:44:59 <ehird> Maybe I'll ask tedts'o.
20:50:18 <ehird> pikhq: the X25-M assumes 20GB of writes a day
20:50:28 <ehird> if you go over that it enables some sort of slowing down thing to extend its life
20:50:42 <ehird> i can't imagine many people actually write over 20gb/day...
20:51:07 <Deewiant> And "slowing down" probably means "only 50 times faster than an avergae HD"
20:52:45 <ehird> HI THERE YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE I DONT KNOW ANY THING ANY THING ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY NOW ARE USEING 1 MB TOO 4 MB BLOCKS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUD AND BESIDES THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINT READ WRITE
20:53:46 <pikhq> First, there's a key just to the left of the "a" key. Hit it. Second, here's a 1st grade basic spelling book.
20:54:07 <pikhq> And, hell, just to cover everything, here's a grammar textbook, too.
20:54:41 <ehird> pikhq: Try rapping that comment. It's designed for it, I mean "ANY THING ANY THING"? "SOO"?
20:54:44 <ehird> That's so filler to fit beats.
20:54:52 <ehird> HI THERE! YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE
20:54:58 <ehird> KNOW ANYTHING ANYTHING
20:55:05 <pikhq> Obviously, it's meant to be yelled.
20:55:06 <ehird> ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE...
20:55:17 <ehird> LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH
20:55:21 <ehird> MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY
20:55:26 <ehird> NOW, ARE USEING 1 MB TOO
20:55:31 <ehird> 4 MB BLOCKS -- NOT THE OTHER WAY
20:55:36 <ehird> AROUND, AND, BESIDES
20:55:39 <ehird> THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST
20:55:43 <ehird> OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION
20:55:50 <ehird> THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH
20:55:53 <ehird> MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINITE WRITE
20:56:00 <ehird> It's the SSD Cube Rap.
20:56:11 <pikhq> Like the time cube?
20:56:17 <ehird> lifthrasiir: Right you are.
20:57:46 <fizzie> INFINT is the int-typed constant for the +inf float value.
20:57:58 <ehird> So infint write life?
20:58:00 <ehird> That's a lot of writes.
20:58:11 <ehird> fizzie: how do you get +inf in C, again?
20:58:15 <fizzie> It's like MAXINT, only bigger.
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20:58:42 * pikhq notes that Gene Ray, Doctor of Cubic has gone racist of late
20:58:56 <ehird> Deewiant: So int infint = (int)(1.0f/0);
20:58:57 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's NAN, not +inf.
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20:59:13 <fizzie> There's the macro INFINITY in <math.h>.
20:59:30 * pikhq shakes a fist at floats
20:59:47 <ehird> [ehird:~] % cc -x c /dev/stdin
20:59:47 <ehird> int main(void){printf("%i\n",(int)(1.0f/0));return 0;}
20:59:49 <ehird> /dev/stdin: In function ‘main’:
20:59:51 <ehird> /dev/stdin:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’
20:59:53 <ehird> /dev/stdin:1: warning: division by zero
20:59:55 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ./a.out
20:59:59 <ehird> So in the future, SSD & flash memory will be able to handle 2147483647 writes.
21:01:08 -!- tombom_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:01:52 <ehird> Anyone used vmware?
21:01:59 <fizzie> Actually "INFINITE" is defined rather funnily in C99: it expands to (float-typed) constant expression "representing positive or unsigned infinity, if available"; if there is no infinity, it expands to a float constant that overflows at translation time, and therefore forces a diagnostic.
21:02:19 <ehird> pikhq: How are its linux-guest video drivers etc?
21:02:30 <ehird> Parallels' don't install, I've had flakiness with VirtualBox's.
21:02:37 <pikhq> Not bad, though I don't recall them handling 3D.
21:03:08 <ehird> pikhq: Do you think they could handle the latest kernel and Xorg and etc? :P
21:03:08 <pikhq> IIRC, VMware's video drivers are part of X.
21:03:45 <ehird> pikhq: do you still have to pay for the version that lets you OMG CREATE YOUR OWN VM?
21:03:58 <pikhq> Yeah, but you can get a 30-day free trial for that.
21:04:09 <pikhq> And after that, you can use the player.
21:04:25 <ehird> pikhq: with Parallels you just had to give a unique email address and reactivate
21:04:29 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed Debian installing a xserver-xorg-video-vmware (as a part of xserver-xorg-video metapackage) recentlyish.
21:04:33 <ehird> penguinofthegods+youreallfuckingmorons@gmail.com, yum.
21:05:33 <fizzie> VMware server is also sort-of freewareish, and it can create VMs. I'm not quite sure what it lacks; probably quite a lot on the GUI and graphics-emulation side.
21:05:56 <ehird> Uhhh. You can't get VMWare Workstation for OS X.
21:06:06 <fizzie> (I also have no idea whether you can run vmware-server-created VMs with the player.)
21:06:38 <ehird> fizzie: vmware server wants 5 billion personal details from me >_<
21:06:42 <ehird> Maybe I'll try qemu.
21:06:48 <ehird> It can emulate regular vga
21:07:22 <fizzie> Qemu emulates the VMware SVGA "card".
21:07:43 <fizzie> "-vga type: "vmware" VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter. Use it if you have sufficiently recent XFree86/XOrg server or Windows guest with a driver for this card."
21:08:03 <ehird> It also emulates a Cirrus noname card, which I use.
21:08:08 <ehird> Also, goddamn qemu is slow :-)
21:08:22 <pikhq> qemu is actually doing emulation.
21:08:36 <pikhq> Is there kqemu for OS X?
21:08:59 <fizzie> "preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows".
21:09:07 <fizzie> And no KVM either, of course.
21:09:16 <ehird> 'll try virtualbox
21:09:33 <ehird> User Mode Linux would be the fastest way to have a linux VM, I think.
21:09:43 <ehird> Doesn't it just patch up the kernel so it can be run as a userspace executable?
21:09:52 <ehird> At least that's what the name implies to me it should do.
21:10:48 <fizzie> Pretty much, yes. But it's a bit rough around the edges. I used UML for my virtual web-server before switching to Xen.
21:11:03 <ehird> Why would you virtualize your own server?
21:11:19 <ehird> Mm, VirtualBox is fast.
21:11:34 <fizzie> So that it's easier to play with snapshots and restoration and things like that.
21:11:44 <ehird> On a webserver? :P
21:12:09 <ehird> God damn VirtualBox is fast
21:12:29 <fizzie> Yes; the web server was a single LVM logical-volume snapshot, so I could just discard it if it went bad.
21:13:23 <pikhq> VirtualBox uses hardware virtualisation.
21:13:45 <pikhq> Of course it's fast. ;)
21:14:01 <ehird> So does Parallels.
21:14:04 <fizzie> Debian has a "virtualbox-ose-guest-x11" package if you want to run Linux+X guest in the VM; I'm not sure what other distributions include it too. I guess it does improve the integration a bit.
21:14:04 <ehird> But virtualbox is faster.
21:14:14 <ehird> Yes, it does improve it a lot
21:14:28 <ehird> Why didn't I try Arch before? I love it
21:15:28 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:17:05 <ehird> Modern electronic-rock music, inaugurated in the early 1960s, is, and always has been, a joint enterprise of British military intelligence and Satanic cults. On the one side, the Satanists control the major rock groups through drugs, sex, threats of violence, and even murder. On the other side, publicity, tours, and recordings are financed by record companies connected to British military intelligence circles. Both sides are intimately entwined with the
21:17:08 <ehird> biggest business in the world, the international drug trade.
21:20:06 <pikhq> ehird: Oooh, link?
21:20:12 <ehird> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellaneous/satanic_roots_of_rock.htm
21:20:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, can you do flock(2) advisory-locking on a filehandle that's actually an open(2)ed directory? I don't quite see why not, but I've been surprised before.
21:20:37 <ehird> pikhq: "Clearly, the Beatles' album was dedicated to Satanist Aleister Crowley (pictured to left). It was released 20 years, nearly to the day, after Crowley's death in 1947, and its title song began with the lyrics, "It was twenty years ago today..." The album's cover featured a picture of Crowley."
21:20:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console. <-- wow, url for download?
21:21:06 * pikhq finds that hilarious
21:21:09 <ehird> http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/
21:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: to do the multi-split thing you have to put a dvtm in a dvtm
21:21:22 <ehird> so you can tile while you tile
21:21:38 <pikhq> ... Beatles. Picture of innocence.
21:21:42 <AnMaster> WARNING: MEME DETECTED! EVACUATE CHANNEL!
21:21:57 <pikhq> "I am the Walrus". Need I say more?
21:22:15 <fizzie> Ubuntu's new screen-profiles thing looks rather curious; ran into it when testing a diskless husk of a computer with Ubuntu live-cd-on-a-USB-stick.
21:22:19 <ehird> I am the Walrus, whereby "am" I mean "take" and "the Walrus" I mean "heroin".
21:22:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:22:37 <pikhq> Also, "simple little tunes".
21:22:44 <pikhq> *Someone's* only listened to one album.
21:23:29 <pikhq> And... Wow. Claiming that the Beatle's popularity was a hoax?
21:23:32 <ehird> tomorrow never knows is the most simple tune ever
21:23:35 <pikhq> Someone cranked the crazy up to 11.
21:24:09 <fizzie> Up to X11. (Because that's obviously the pinnacle of crazy.)
21:24:59 <pikhq> Also, they claim Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was dedicated to the promotion of psychedelic drugs.
21:25:20 <pikhq> Wrong album; that would be just about every late-career album *but* that one.
21:25:58 <pikhq> Sgt. Pepper's was merely dedicated to pschedelic rock.
21:27:50 <pikhq> Also, LSD was 100% legal at the time. :p
21:28:11 <pikhq> (made illegal in '67 or '68...)
21:31:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you should have forced me to get arch working, dammit :-D
21:31:50 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you get it working?
21:32:05 <ehird> It's a ruddy good distro.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> ehird, why? Then you would have hated it because I forced you to do it I bet ;P
21:33:24 <ehird> But seriously, it's nice.
21:33:30 <ehird> They should totally use apt though/
21:33:48 <AnMaster> I only ever had one issue with it's package manager.
21:33:55 <ehird> I haven't had any.
21:33:57 <ehird> I just like apt ;-)
21:34:11 <ehird> Although pacman's probably second-best.
21:34:12 <pikhq> Every binary distro should use apt; it's freaking awesome.
21:35:00 <pikhq> Especially with such features as debootstrap...
21:35:24 <pikhq> (so very easy to set up a Xen VM running Debian...)
21:35:30 <AnMaster> I ran into some issue about pacman complaining that it couldn't upgrade bash because "/usr/share/man/man1/bash.1.gz already exists". I haven't seen that bug for months though
21:36:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess you will get the occasional issue with arch. since it is so bleeding edge usually.
21:36:43 <ehird> I like bleeding edge.
21:36:46 <AnMaster> usually easy enough to fix, and the irc channel is very friendly and helpful
21:36:50 <ehird> I mean, I'm using ext4 for everything but /boot!
21:36:58 <ehird> It was just declared stable in... december?
21:37:18 <ehird> Yay, the "AUR" thing has virtualbox-additions as a package.
21:37:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking more about "gcc 4.3.3 in stable less than a week after it was released"
21:37:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tip for AUR: use yauort
21:37:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I think gcc releases are generally conservative in themselves
21:38:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I love tab complete :P
21:38:03 <ehird> Oops, forgot to change hostname.
21:38:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:38:17 <ehird> Okay: change hostname, add user account, install sudo, passwd -l root.
21:38:46 <AnMaster> augh. What happened to man passwd
21:39:08 <AnMaster> passwd - ändra användarlösenord
21:39:19 <AnMaster> no idea why I have the man page in Swedish at all...
21:39:38 <ehird> pacman -Sy sudo, la la la la la
21:39:57 <AnMaster> ok now I changed things in a different way
21:40:05 <AnMaster> passwd - Axndra anvAxndarlA9|senord
21:40:13 <AnMaster> I have no idea how that could happen
21:40:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It should be fine. You considering it? I'd just buy the $600 160GB one if so; it'll be cheaper overall probably
21:40:22 <ehird> Also, it's not as if OS drives need an awful lot.
21:40:35 <AnMaster> it should say: "passwd - Ändra användarlösenord"
21:41:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I highly doubt it would be possible to notice the difference with an SSD>
21:41:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: No seeking.
21:41:38 <AnMaster> there is a matching command to su
21:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I just never noticed it before!
21:42:09 <AnMaster> of course I know about sgid binaries, like nethack
21:42:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it'd probably end up more or less unnoticable for the cost
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21:42:24 <ehird> nethack is setgid?
21:42:51 <ehird> yaourt isn't in arch :-D
21:42:58 <ehird> I guess I have to do what it does manually to get it
21:43:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so what you do is, get that manually and build it, then use yaourt for all future AUR package installs
21:43:41 <ehird> I'll need base-devel won't I
21:43:59 <AnMaster> don't remember what language yaourt is in
21:44:07 <ehird> might as well do it
21:44:09 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: http://hothardware.com/News/Intel-SSDs-RAID-0-A-Case-Study-In-Speed-Take-2/
21:44:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is rather simple to build it anyway
21:44:27 <AnMaster> as normal user create a directory
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21:44:45 <AnMaster> wget or otherwise download the PKGBUILD and any other patch files listed at the AUR web page for it
21:44:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: The question is whether it is noticable in 90% of regular usage cases
21:45:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: So's our $80k system
21:45:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you will have a *i686.tar.gz (replace i686 with x86_64 or such if that is what you use)
21:45:28 <ehird> I'm reading the wiki for it AnMaster
21:45:30 <AnMaster> then you do sudo pacman -U thispackagefile
21:45:55 <Deewiant> You don't even need to install it the first time?
21:46:10 <Deewiant> All you need to do is get the binary working
21:46:13 <ehird> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt
21:46:20 <ehird> Easy way is to install it via pacman
21:47:01 <ehird> ... it's just a few commands to install yaourt
21:47:20 <ehird> And it's a one-time thing; no sense cluttering the repo list
21:47:23 <AnMaster> of course, installing a package from source on gentoo is *even* easier
21:47:31 <Deewiant> AUR updates are more painful than non-AUR.
21:47:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: If you really have the cash, RAID 0 some of the X25-*E*s.
21:47:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Bah, fine.
21:47:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: That'll be superfast.
21:48:04 <pikhq> If you really have the cash, we speced a $80,000 machine.
21:48:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, can I see the full component list of it please
21:48:32 <ehird> It's useful for regular computing tasks as well as the crazy shit :P
21:48:39 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but I can give you one.
21:48:39 <pikhq> Probably far better to get 4 $20,000 machines or, I dunno, 80 $1,000 machines.
21:49:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/472570.txt?key=gzff3jen8qjjkn1gx7brlg
21:49:16 <ehird> Doesn't include a power supply or case or well a lot of things
21:49:20 <ehird> But that's how far we got
21:49:27 <ehird> Then we got bored since it was trivial to spill money on the rest
21:49:41 <ehird> Deewiant: What does archlinuxfr contain apart from yaourt, then?
21:49:42 <AnMaster> 300GB VelociRaptor ($229.99) x 58 = $13,339.42
21:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but that came to $44k
21:49:57 <ehird> and we decided it was stupid
21:49:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know how to query Pacman for that. I'm fairly sure I've got something else from it, too.
21:50:01 <ehird> since you can grow pretty much unbounded with them
21:50:15 <ehird> Deewiant: so how are AUR upgrades harder?
21:50:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you can grow unbounded with disks too
21:50:18 <pikhq> ehird: Though we'd need a less beefy PSU for them.
21:50:28 <pikhq> Which would actually matter with such a system.
21:50:32 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but we just scaled down so it wasn't so much cheating
21:50:55 <ehird> nor is the power supply
21:51:01 <Deewiant> ehird: For one thing, each AUR package is update-checked separately, instead of just checking a database timestamp (or hash? Not sure how it works)
21:51:01 <pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units.
21:51:12 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, exactly
21:51:14 <ehird> although the latency would suck
21:51:21 <ehird> but you can easily spend 5 gajillion dollars in storage
21:51:23 <pikhq> It would be horrendous.
21:51:27 <ehird> it's harder to spend it on, say, CPUs
21:51:27 <AnMaster> <pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units.
21:51:27 <pikhq> But you could do it.
21:51:32 <ehird> and graphics cards
21:51:36 <pikhq> And get several exabytes.
21:51:47 <ehird> pikhq: How to run a turing machine: Daisy chain them as you go.
21:51:59 <ehird> The latency is so low that they'll have time to come in tomorrow and do it at their leisure.
21:52:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I said that two seconds before!
21:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought of it before, though
21:52:17 <ehird> but I wasn't at the keyboard
21:52:32 <ehird> AnMaster: about 3-4s brain-to-start-typing latency there
21:52:55 <AnMaster> but I was thinking of it as soon as pikhq mentioned it. "<pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units."
21:54:04 <ehird> "error: could not register 'archlinuxfr' database (unexpected system error)" ← pretty cryptic error for "you didn't run me as root"
21:54:06 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, read the context kay?
21:54:12 <pikhq> So, I'm now imagining a freaking massive data center, filled with nothing but disks and a single system, hooked up to it via 8 SAS cables.
21:54:14 <ehird> AnMaster: How ironic
21:54:23 <Deewiant> ehird: yaourt uses sudo automatically.
21:54:29 <ehird> Deewiant: EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:30 <ehird> EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: We realise this.
21:54:32 <ehird> EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:36 <ehird> Deewiant: MAKE IT STOP!!
21:54:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Automatically sudoing is the devil.
21:54:44 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: We're joking about means to create a UTM, man.
21:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it tells you in advance iirc
21:54:53 <Deewiant> I think I read somewhere that it actually tries both.
21:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it is very clear with what it does
21:55:14 <ehird> It just shouldn't.
21:55:27 <AnMaster> since you shouldn't build packages as root
21:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, building as normal user is recommended
21:55:47 <ehird> It's exactly what I intend to do.
21:56:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, so I only use all my home. Awesome.
21:56:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but makepkg uses fakeroot!
21:56:20 <ehird> It's not like all my valuable data is on there or anything.
21:56:25 <Deewiant> I don't know anything about fakeroot.
21:56:32 <ehird> I'm just going to use it as root.
21:56:38 <pikhq> Pretends to be root.
21:56:39 <AnMaster> anyway IMO it should just su to a temp user
21:56:52 <pikhq> Fails if it does anything actually unsafe.
21:57:00 <ehird> Yaourt is written in Bash.
21:57:06 <AnMaster> like it internally does "su - package-builder"
21:57:09 <ehird> I ran "yaourt" and I watched each line of help scroll by individually, one by one.
21:57:13 <ehird> That's how slow it is :-)
21:57:13 <pikhq> And I thought Portage was bad.
21:57:25 <pikhq> (Portage is written in Python, with attempts to rewrite it in C)
21:57:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, um... portage does change to a different user.
21:57:31 <ehird> "Runing [sic] yaourt as a non-privileged user requiers[sic] some entries in sudoers file:"
21:57:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: I was describing how fakeroot works.
21:57:43 <ehird> (tells you how to make pacman be sudoable by everyone, pretty much)
21:57:46 <Deewiant> time yaourt --help >/dev/null -> 0.13user 0.38system
21:57:48 <ehird> So by default it doesn't do that
21:57:56 <pikhq> Not what Portage does for its sandboxing.
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21:58:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, similar results on my P3 even
21:58:14 <AnMaster> so ehird's computer suck badly we see,
21:58:18 <Deewiant> My point was that that is a long time.
21:58:21 <ehird> Yeah. My virtual computer sucks.
21:58:22 <Deewiant> 0.4 seconds to output a string?
21:58:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, portage sandboxes in two ways
21:58:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, 1) change to different user
21:58:40 <ehird> hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
21:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: should just do as macports: chroot
21:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well you could write a module to do that I think
21:59:26 <pikhq> Deewiant: Uh... Portage isn't much better.
21:59:28 <ehird> you put the base libraries and all the packages' dependencies into a build directory, chroot in, su to low-powered user that still has rights to the whole chroot, build & install package
21:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, however that needs to mirror stuff in the chroot
21:59:31 <pikhq> sudo emerge --help 1.29s user 0.16s system 98% cpu 1.463 total
21:59:33 <ehird> go out of chroot, copy files over
21:59:49 <Deewiant> pikhq: I was not comparing to Portage.
22:00:14 <ehird> 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
22:00:23 <AnMaster> # time pmerge --help &>/dev/null
22:00:26 <ehird> sudo pacman -S xorg
22:00:36 <Deewiant> ldc --help-hidden is over three times as long, and outputs in 0.00 seconds.
22:00:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
22:00:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean like install deps for AUR packages when needed from the normal repos?
22:01:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that too, but also, 'foo -S packagethatsinmainrepo'
22:01:13 <ehird> 'foo -S packgeinaur'
22:01:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:01:20 <Deewiant> ehird: yaourt has a pacman-compatible interface.
22:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, again yaourt can already do that
22:01:34 <ehird> More like slowterface.
22:01:45 <ehird> So why isn't yaourt the official pacman?
22:01:45 <Deewiant> The only thing I've found that pacman can do that yaourt can't is output a help string for a specific command.
22:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what in "interface" implies fast.
22:02:12 <AnMaster> ehird, interface is something slow. Like 200 baud serial.
22:02:39 <ehird> "I think the big peaks and valleys are a result of high erase/re-write latency of MLC flash. You don't see that with SLC actually."
22:02:41 <ehird> I wonder if that's true.
22:02:44 <ehird> It's not what Anand told me :P
22:03:04 <ehird> Anand. anandtech.com
22:03:13 * AnMaster tries to figure out what logical operation anand would be
22:03:19 <ehird> An and, obviously.
22:03:26 <ehird> see wut i did thur
22:04:02 <ehird> That's not a meme.
22:04:05 <ehird> That's just a cheesy phrase.
22:04:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:04:25 <ehird> See what I did cheddar?
22:04:28 <ehird> No, that doesn't work.
22:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, true, cheddar is too dry I guess.
22:05:04 <AnMaster> and I don't know the *English* names of other cheeses
22:05:28 <pikhq> Not even American "cheese"?
22:06:02 -!- nooga has joined.
22:07:42 <ehird> You know what creeps me out? Seeing CPUs. Too fucking small parts, dammit!
22:10:13 <ehird> WTF? I have no /etc/X11/xorg.conf
22:12:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:12:19 <AnMaster> ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it
22:12:27 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> anyway: strongly garlic flavoured bread + butter + cheddar
22:14:03 <pikhq> How's about blackjack and hookers with that? Y'know what, screw the bread. And the blackjack! </bender>
22:15:11 <AnMaster> "</bender>" <-- heuristics detected popular culture reference but not found in database.
22:15:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:15:25 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:16:21 <pikhq> Another one of those shows that Fox thought "Oh, it's good! Cancel it!"
22:16:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does the game blackjack have to do with it.
22:16:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Quoting Bender.
22:16:57 <pikhq> Well, channeling, rather.
22:16:59 <AnMaster> but what was the original context for it
22:17:14 <pikhq> Bender likes gambling.
22:17:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider reading curl -I slashdot.org on occasion.
22:17:23 <AnMaster> what do you mean "channeling"?
22:17:34 <pikhq> It's not quite a quote.
22:17:46 <pikhq> He never said anything about bread, specifically. ;)
22:17:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider reading curl --help.
22:18:13 <AnMaster> (when googling for the exact phrase)
22:18:32 <AnMaster> -I/--head Show document info only
22:18:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right that one is old
22:18:50 <AnMaster> X-Fry: Sweet justice! Sweet, juicy justice!
22:18:55 <AnMaster> I have seen other ones for other clients
22:19:09 <Deewiant> It doesn't depend on client, it varies by timestamp.
22:19:15 <Deewiant> I think it changes every minute or something.
22:19:30 <Deewiant> In any case, if you know of it, haven't you ever seen 'X-Bender'?
22:19:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:19:56 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:20:02 <Deewiant> Do it a couple of times, then, until you do, and you will have.
22:20:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I knew they did strange things in their headers. But I never really cared about it
22:20:12 <AnMaster> X-Bender: Nothing like a warm fire and a super-soaker of fine cognac.
22:20:37 <Deewiant> They just serve up random Futurama quotes in X-<character quoted>.
22:20:41 <AnMaster> X-Fry: That doesn't look like an "L", unless you count lower case.
22:21:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: You should; it's brilliant.
22:21:19 <Deewiant> I didn't think it was that brilliant, actually. It was OK.
22:21:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, well maybe, I don't have a tv currently
22:21:40 <pikhq> Not currently aired.
22:21:46 <pikhq> So, TV won't help.
22:21:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't do pirate copies.
22:21:55 <pikhq> BitTorrent or DVDs.
22:22:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I still have a VHS player somewhere. Just no TV
22:22:48 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, Comedy Central recently started a new season. So, never mind.
22:22:57 <AnMaster> this VHS player is so old it has a *wired* remote
22:23:02 <AnMaster> as in a cable for the remote :D
22:24:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway buying the DVD would require me to figure out how to use a non-data dvd in my computer
22:25:06 <AnMaster> I guess mplayer could handle it
22:25:14 <Deewiant> It's a matter of putting it in the drive and pointing a player at it.
22:25:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but mplayer has arcane syntax for doing that sort of stuff
22:25:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xine is messy. kmplayer is confusing.
22:25:58 <ehird> 22:12 AnMaster: ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it
22:25:58 <ehird> 22:12 AnMaster: auto config stuff
22:26:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. it uses hal and dbus
22:26:12 <Deewiant> I think he's right, X11 no longer needs a conf
22:26:19 <Deewiant> You can still make one, of course.
22:27:10 <ehird> Well, that's nice.
22:27:18 <AnMaster> I still use the config because 1) I already have a working one and I don't see a point in learning a different system 2) X auto config by hal had issues with my joystick before.
22:27:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's easy to do with mplay.
22:27:43 <AnMaster> issues == refused to let me use it for anything
22:28:07 * AnMaster wants to use axis 8 and 9 for mouse in X, and button 27 for click in X. The rest is left to the flight sim
22:28:17 <AnMaster> that works just fine with the good old joystick driver in X
22:29:07 <AnMaster> 8 and 9 are... uh, the two wheels on the throttle I think
22:29:27 <AnMaster> too many axises (axes?) to remember
22:29:40 <AnMaster> have it in the config for the flightsim :)
22:31:27 <AnMaster> anyway I saw some crazy cds recently. You know those old mini-format cds?
22:31:36 <AnMaster> I think they were discussed in here recently
22:31:54 <AnMaster> while mentioning that they broke slot-style cd drives
22:32:06 <AnMaster> anyway I saw one just last week
22:32:11 <ehird> This autoconfig thing is so awesome that it doesn't let me move my mouse.
22:32:14 <pikhq> A SACD is not a CD.
22:32:17 <ehird> How do I make it generate a skeleton xorg.conf?
22:33:00 <pikhq> It is physically a DVD, IIRC.
22:33:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, really? I saw this phrase oh the cover of a music cd: "OBS! Denna Super Audio CD går även att spela på en vanlig CD-spelare." <-- "Observe! This Super Audio CD can also be played on a normal CD player"
22:33:52 <fizzie> "Hybrid: The most popular of the three types, hybrid discs include a "Red Book" layer compatible with most legacy Compact Disc players, dubbed the "CD layer," and a 4.7 GB SACD layer, dubbed the "HD layer." It is not uncommon for hybrid discs to carry the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo to show that the disc is CDDA-compliant."'
22:34:28 <AnMaster> can a DVD player in a computer play the super audio layer in it?
22:34:37 <pikhq> Note that there is absolutely no Linux support for SACD.
22:34:44 <pikhq> With software support, yes.
22:34:45 <ehird> Deewiant: would you happen to know?
22:34:56 <pikhq> Software support is rare.
22:35:18 <pikhq> (and SACD uses 96 kHz to 192 kHz audio; most sound cards can't handle it)
22:35:22 <Deewiant> ehird: xorgconfig, or whatever it's called?
22:35:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, wouldn't it need a different laser type?
22:35:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: As said, the SACD layer is physically a DVD.
22:36:19 <fizzie> But it doesn't seem to use PCM sound at all; it's a one-bit delta-sigma encoding thing with 2822.4 kHz sampling rate.
22:36:39 <pikhq> SACD is DRM'd, and it has yet to be cracked.
22:36:42 <ehird> I highly doubt humans can distinguish better sampling than a CD.
22:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just interested in the music on it. that was all
22:37:08 <pikhq> ehird: In some cases, humans can distinguish 48 kHz.
22:37:12 <AnMaster> cd quality is good enough for me
22:37:16 <pikhq> But *that* is soley because of poor ADCs.
22:37:41 <ehird> Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality.
22:37:43 <ehird> Yes, that includes you
22:38:05 <fizzie> Infallopedia says that SACD's quality is comparable to a 20-bit PCM format and a 192 kHz sampling rate. Though it's not exactly the same thing.
22:38:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality. <-- Depends on what music. For some types of music the difference is more noticable
22:38:10 <ehird> pikhq: Show the double-blind ABX test results, please.
22:38:11 <pikhq> 192 kbps MP3s are quite a bit more difficult to distinguish, though.
22:38:18 <ehird> pikhq: Otherwise you're talking shit.
22:38:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, "Your search - Infallopedia - did not match any documents."
22:38:38 <ehird> pikhq: I fully admit I cannot distinguish them.
22:38:43 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a portmaneuver
22:38:59 <AnMaster> I wasn't sure if it was an existing joke of wikipedia
22:39:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes; it's the only infallible thing around here.
22:39:16 <fizzie> Curious that it's not a term that's in use.
22:39:19 <ehird> I seem to have no xorgconfig.
22:39:21 <ehird> Maybe it's in sbin.
22:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: to generate a skeleton xorg.conf
22:39:38 <ehird> so I can modify it
22:39:47 <ehird> My mouse doesn't work, AnMaster.
22:39:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you do it by editing HAL config
22:39:59 <ehird> I need to use the vboxmouse driver.
22:40:25 <AnMaster> anyway: don't ask me. I compiled xorg without hal support
22:40:32 <ehird> I'd be fine with evdev if I could use the mouse
22:40:36 <AnMaster> becuase I hate hal. With a passion.
22:40:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't allow the nice integration thingy
22:40:54 <ehird> It's so workitude.
22:41:18 <ehird> AnMaster: (1) I don't care about the integration thingy (2) Because it's never broken for me, ever, and it means I do a lot less configuring.
22:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you want "vboxmouse" if you don't want the integration bit
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22:42:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, I just got spam with the title "Stop sendingme this crap".
22:42:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I Cannot Move My Mouse.
22:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, does lsusb show your mouse?
22:42:07 <ehird> It just stays there.
22:42:14 <ehird> And no, just two root hubs.
22:42:15 <Deewiant> I wonder if spam senders take titles from messages they receive?
22:42:22 <ehird> It's virtual. I don't know
22:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well it has to fake it to the guest *somehow*
22:42:53 <ehird> from dmesg|grep -i ps/2
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.075700] PNP: PS/2 Controller [PNP0303:PS2K] at 0x60,0x64 irq 1
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.093979] PNP: PS/2 appears to have AUX port disabled, if this is incorrect please boot with i8042.nopnp
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.132103] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice
22:43:29 <AnMaster> (I don't have a PS/2 mouse, I do have a PS/2 keyboard though)
22:43:45 <ehird> psmouse serio1: ID: 10 00 64<6>input: ImExPS/2 Generic Explorer Mouse as /devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input5
22:43:50 <ehird> I typed that out by hand :P
22:44:37 <ehird> What did they ever do to you?
22:44:47 <AnMaster> ehird, begin using HAL for auto config dammit!
22:45:09 <ehird> Er... HAL is more unix than the old system.
22:45:16 <ehird> Do one thing, do it well, use it everywhere.
22:45:27 <AnMaster> ehird, traitors to true-"what UNIX was in practice"-kind
22:45:38 <ehird> It's not UNIXy in any form.
22:46:14 <Deewiant> Woot, signed up for a Scheme course.
22:46:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Have you read your SICP today?
22:46:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe I should do it too.
22:46:53 <ehird> Deewiant: Read SICP
22:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: International Christian Chamber of Commerce?
22:47:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: The IRC channel they mention is kind of quiet.
22:47:02 <Deewiant> ehird: It's the course book, so I might, partly.
22:47:07 <AnMaster> nter- Client Communications Conventions
22:47:11 <AnMaster> Inter- Client Communications Conventions
22:47:12 <ehird> Deewiant: *insert /prog/snake*
22:47:14 <fizzie> Only chapters 3-5 for the course, though.
22:47:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've been meaning to learn a Lisp anyway, so I figured I might as well do it thus. :-)
22:47:36 <ehird> Well read 1-2 then!
22:47:38 <ehird> You can never have enough
22:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, it must have been mentioned in that "unix haters handbook" you love to refer to
22:48:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure UNIX-HATERS would be aligned with a HAL-like system more than duplicate, incompatible configurations
22:48:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: "the material to read for the exam are the chapters 3-5 of SICP"; I guess chapters 1+2 could be relevant for the homeworks, though.
22:48:26 <AnMaster> the old system works better in practise
22:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's called bugs, not design deficiencies. And it works for me.
22:48:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: I did the old Scheme course, but this one seems to be the Extended Edition.
22:48:36 <Deewiant> "You can bring the coursebook to the exam."
22:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can move your mouse now?
22:48:54 <Deewiant> But then, SICP isn't very useful in that sense, I guess, so it makes sense.
22:49:08 <ehird> AnMaster: In case you haven't realised, VMs are not the typical use case of Linux.
22:49:16 <ehird> Besides, it'll just be flicking a switch somewhere
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22:50:27 <ehird> Can xorg deal with a partial xorg.conf?
22:50:30 <ehird> i.e., just specifying one thing?
22:51:22 <fizzie> "procedural abstraction, data abstraction, functional programming, concurrency, streams and lazy evaluation, programming language interpreters, logic programming, register machines and machine language programming"; that's a rather wide-ranging list; though it's pretty directly from the book.
22:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but you need to turn off HAL to define any input devices at all iirc
22:51:40 <AnMaster> or maybe you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse
22:51:42 <ehird> Now THAT is stupid.
22:52:01 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse.
22:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, read (short) http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.xml
22:52:32 <AnMaster> it describes the differences to between classical and HAL
22:54:21 <ehird> Alas, my keyboard is dead too, it seems.
22:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I only had troubles with HAL.
22:55:35 <Deewiant> I've had no troubles with HAL.
22:55:44 <ehird> Ditto. Apart from this minor VM-related one.
22:56:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I would call "keyboard and mouse not working" rather "major"
22:56:21 <ehird> ... in Yet Another Virtual Machine.
22:58:30 <nooga> it's smaller than my unix flavoured kernel
22:58:43 -!- okloduk has joined.
22:58:44 <nooga> and does something... unlike mine kernel ;p
22:59:10 <nooga> i've got stupid problem
23:00:30 <nooga> i'm writing SADOL editor, which should highlight parameters called by function under cursor
23:00:59 <nooga> but i've got problem finding proper AST node using cursor coordinates
23:01:57 * AnMaster so loves when non-Swedish websites misses åäö when mentioning Swedish things resulting in hilarious results
23:02:12 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead.").
23:02:30 <nooga> insulting re insults
23:02:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
23:03:10 <AnMaster> like a piece of music called "Förklädd gud" (translation: God in Disguise) was written as "Forkladd gud" meaning something like "traveled grease god"
23:03:26 <AnMaster> though the latter is gramatically incorrect.
23:03:49 <AnMaster> kladd isn't grease really hm. grease is "kladdig" though
23:04:00 <AnMaster> kladd is more like sticky/greasy/messy
23:04:22 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:04:35 <AnMaster> well anyway the result was hilarious
23:04:53 -!- GregorR has changed nick to TraveledGreaseGo.
23:05:05 <comex> btw, ehird, can you at least support bayes becoming active so it doesn't get deregistered?>
23:05:11 -!- TraveledGreaseGo has changed nick to TravelGreaseGod.
23:05:31 <ehird> it'd mess with quorum.
23:05:59 <AnMaster> wow another one in same site: "öron" (translation: ears) was changed to "oron" (translation: the worry)
23:06:20 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
23:06:59 <AnMaster> över meaning over, that being the correct preposition to use in there in Swedish
23:07:21 <comex> even latin has such a phenomenon in only a few cases
23:08:40 <AnMaster> comex, ö is not o with dots in Swedish. The difference is as large as between v and w or, a and e in English
23:09:00 <AnMaster> it is a completely different letter in the alphabet
23:09:12 <AnMaster> pronounced completely differently
23:09:50 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö
23:09:59 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö#Letter_.C3.96_in_Scandinavian_languages to be specific
23:10:14 <AnMaster> comex, the same is true for a vs å and a vs ä
23:10:23 <AnMaster> they are three totally different letters
23:10:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Å#Scandinavian_languages
23:11:15 <comex> The short version represents IPA /ɔ/.
23:11:17 <AnMaster> comex, wikipedia says: "In Swedish, Ö is pronounced [øː] (e.g. "öl"), [œ] (e.g. "kött") or [ɶ] (e.g. "dörr")."
23:11:18 <comex> well that's sure helpful
23:11:38 <AnMaster> comex, I can't make a recording atm. People sleeping in next room.
23:12:08 <AnMaster> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ä#As_an_independent_letter
23:12:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:12:40 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:13:18 <comex> I'm removing support for multiple players, it just makes everything 10 times more complicated
23:14:39 <comex> I'm just being off-topic :p
23:15:39 <comex> but this is the first real-w-orld thing I've written in haskell
23:15:41 <comex> (don't tell ehird)
23:15:57 <AnMaster> and you already highlighted him ;P
23:16:09 <ehird> But I'm well aware of comex's haskell incompetence.
23:16:33 <comex> AnMaster: yep, it's a joke
23:16:47 -!- Judofyr has joined.
23:17:20 <AnMaster> The configuration of dvtm is done by creating a custom config.h
23:17:20 <AnMaster> and (re)compiling the source code.
23:17:43 <nooga> same in Polish...: łącze -> link, lacze -> flat tires
23:17:47 <ehird> But seriously, it's not hard to parse an ini.
23:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it does the exact same.
23:17:58 <ehird> Seems that dvtm = dwm for framebuffer.
23:18:30 <nooga> robić łaskę -> to show mercy, robić laske -> to do a blowjob
23:18:54 <ehird> http://grx.no/kb/2008/08/17/notes-on-setting-up-arch-linux-in-virtualbox-with-awesome-wm/
23:18:58 <ehird> This should be helpful.
23:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: now -that'd- be overkill.
23:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, with a plugin architecture of course :P
23:19:34 <ehird> I'm probably going to use pekwm
23:19:58 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:23:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you can mix layouts in one window?
23:23:24 <ehird> pekwm isn't tiling
23:24:17 <ehird> You just run dvtm in dvtm.
23:25:04 <AnMaster> TravelGreaseGod it was a non-exact translation anyway
23:25:35 <nooga> guys, i've got such thing
23:25:37 <nooga> dbg: parsing "+12"
23:25:38 <nooga> dbg: ["+", (0,0), [1, (1,0)], [2, (2,0)]]
23:26:05 <nooga> (x,y) are coordinates of node in text field
23:27:07 <nooga> and i'd like to be able to find a node which has specified coordinates without traversing the tree every time
23:27:47 * ehird forgets how to unmount a loopback mount
23:28:04 <ehird> sudo umount . says it's busy...
23:28:29 <nooga> i need to map the tree, somehow
23:28:51 <comex> ehird, why doesn't my del key work in ghci
23:29:00 <ehird> comex: because ur doin it rong
23:29:44 <AnMaster> the correct way to say "traveled grease god" would be "berest smörjgud"
23:29:53 <AnMaster> though that is a lossy translation too
23:30:11 <AnMaster> loosy? lossy? losy? I can never remember that
23:31:53 <AnMaster> though actually "berest" is more like "well-traveled"
23:32:12 <AnMaster> but "for" is more like "yesterday I traveled somewhere"
23:33:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:34:12 <AnMaster> anyway important hint for the future: Should you ever need to write a Swedish name, song title or other word: Don't drop any dots. In the best case it will look rather silly. In the worst case it will either be incomprehensible or mean something totally different.
23:35:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:35:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, you might want to read the scrollback over silly dropping dots and rings from Swedish words
23:36:00 <AnMaster> it is the reason GregorR is now known as TravelGreaseGod
23:38:25 <nooga> my cat walks on my keyboard
23:38:54 * oerjan still wonders how they managed to name SATA
23:39:06 <oerjan> it seems - a little too close to something :D
23:39:21 <ehird> oerjan: am I missing something
23:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I think he was thinking of satan
23:40:31 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
23:40:53 <oerjan> oh no, AnMaster _is_ satan
23:41:16 <oerjan> i see three prongs, q.e.d.
23:41:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, err my fire poker dowstairs *does* have three prongs
23:41:41 <AnMaster> yes there is a fireplace in this house
23:42:17 <oerjan> always good to have for tormenting souls, i guess
23:42:21 <AnMaster> in fact two of them, and the fire poker at one of them has two prongs, and the fire poker at the other one has three prongs
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23:44:08 <AnMaster> this is even more hilarios at same site
23:44:21 <AnMaster> "önskekonsert" -> "onskekonsert"
23:44:55 <AnMaster> the former means "wished for/dream concert", the second means "evil concert"
23:45:06 <AnMaster> err concert or concerto in English?
23:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, does both mean the same?
23:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you unmount a loop back?
23:46:07 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you loop mounted it
23:46:21 <AnMaster> mount -o loop /file /directory
23:46:25 <oerjan> a concerto is probably a concert that's been too much in italy
23:46:31 <ehird> oh, I was in the dir
23:46:50 <ehird> umount . obviously fails
23:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, if you used losetup and then mount you would need to umount then use losetup to remove it
23:47:34 <AnMaster> but with -o loop it is just umount
23:47:42 <oerjan> if you use SATA for solving SAT, then you're really on thin ice
23:48:01 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:48:16 <oerjan> also a school test in the US, i think
23:48:26 * AnMaster waits for "hell frozen over joke"
23:48:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: continuation of previous
23:48:43 <pikhq> The more common of the two college entrance exams.
23:48:56 <oerjan> hell is not frozen over, we have spring here in trøndelag now
23:48:58 <ehird> school test in UK too
23:49:18 <pikhq> ehird: Different test.
23:49:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:49:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway
23:51:01 <nooga> also in A (with this tiny circle upon)
23:51:16 <oerjan> it's less than an hour's drive from trondheim, and just before our airport
23:51:46 <oerjan> and also the north-south trains pass through it, obviously
23:51:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, with godsexpeditionen too!
23:51:54 <nooga> with that stupid statue
23:52:11 <oerjan> i'm sure we have many :D
23:52:26 <nooga> that one with this "viking" near the water
23:52:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: has your comp arrived yet?
23:52:47 <oerjan> near the water? huh, i don't recall that
23:53:03 <oerjan> there is of course a viking on the central square
23:53:14 <oerjan> being a depiction of the city's founder
23:53:47 <oerjan> it's a bit over the top, really tall
23:54:28 <nooga> http://www.trondheim-photos.com/?k=view_photo&u=statues-5
23:54:59 <nooga> maybe i've got it on my photos
23:55:34 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure where that is
23:55:48 <oerjan> probably one of the newly built areas
23:56:57 <fizzie> The words "central square" reminded me of a thing that's not really especially funny, but I'll mention it anyway; there was at the central-most spot in Lieksa (a tiny "city" of about 13k people nowadays, pretty close to the Finland-Russia border) this: http://zem.fi/g2/d/1033-2/img_2707.jpg -- the website URL would be, if translated to English, "www.connectiontonature.com".
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00:00:12 <nooga> oerjan: Fjordgata ?
00:00:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, "according to EXIF data this image is rotated\nWould you like gimp to rotate it into the standard orientation? [Rotate] [Keep orientation]"
00:01:13 <fizzie> Just try whichever; but I think you want to keep it.
00:01:15 <nooga> anyway, somewhere near, because i've been only in that area ;d
00:01:52 <AnMaster> "www.connectiontonature.com" what is "tonature"?
00:02:23 <fizzie> It's the Gallery2-scaled version, and it has already been rotated; I didn't know that it embeds the original photo's EXIF data in the resized copies too.
00:02:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, I read it as "connect-ion-tonature"
00:02:38 * oerjan googles the company name visible
00:03:16 <nooga> http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6056/img0439anj.jpg
00:03:34 <oerjan> seems to be Pirsenteret
00:03:52 <oerjan> that's a bit further out towards the see
00:05:04 <oerjan> yeah this looks like the same from the other side: http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gregus.no/Inngangsparti.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gregus.no/Hovedside.htm&usg=__ACpOnKhddK_AY54nKR-Xw8NGIV4=&h=300&w=400&sz=30&hl=no&start=10&um=1&tbnid=GgQJp-VBb52YfM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpirsenteret%26hl%3Dno%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
00:05:22 <oerjan> er, http://www.gregus.no/Hovedside.htm
00:06:12 <nooga> http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4783/img0442d.jpg which one is me? ;p
00:07:37 <fizzie> The guy with the briefcase-like thing and a brown jacket?
00:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you may be surprised, but I really like dvtm
00:08:49 <AnMaster> just needs to be a bit more flexible
00:08:49 <ehird> AnMaster: shut down x and use it then
00:08:54 <oerjan> my bet is on the guy with the camera, since that's obviously a tourist
00:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I use it inside konsole with great success!
00:09:10 <nooga> teh red haired one
00:10:06 <ehird> AnMaster: alias dvtm-config="cd /usr/src/dvtm && $EDITOR config.h && make install"
00:10:11 <ehird> $ sudo dvtm-config
00:10:25 <ehird> and there's not exactly much to script :P
00:10:47 <oerjan> that last picture just barely fails to show my favorite restaurant
00:10:51 <ehird> `alias x=y` is shorthand for `x () { y $* }` imo
00:10:55 <ehird> if it's not it should be :P
00:11:07 <fizzie> I'd really have liked something like dvtm back in the fb-console age; but it seems to be a recent innovation.
00:11:18 <AnMaster> that function can't handle spaces
00:11:30 <ehird> that doesn't handle multiple arguments
00:11:37 <ehird> also, $* gets it quoted, I'm pretty sure
00:11:39 <fizzie> It does; that's the magic of $@.
00:11:48 <pikhq> That's what $@ does.
00:11:56 <fizzie> "$@" expands into: "arg 1" "arg 2" ... quoted separately.
00:12:03 <ehird> thus reinforcing my need for the orthogonal shell!
00:12:18 <fizzie> While "$*" would be all-in-one-quotes.
00:12:27 <ehird> $ find . -name \*.jpg -exec {x| echo $x; rm $x} \;
00:12:40 <pikhq> I just need to bother making Tclsh into a usable shell.
00:12:41 <nooga> oerjan: next time, dinner is my treat
00:12:51 <AnMaster> ehird, say arguments 1 is : "a b" argument 2 is: "c". Then "$*" -> "a b c", "$@" -> "a b" "c". without quotes both expand to "a" "b" "c"
00:12:53 <ehird> $ find . -name \*.jpg -exec /tmp/osh/closures/1d874r \;
00:13:08 <ehird> {...} is a closure
00:13:18 <ehird> $ fn hello {x y|echo "hello!"}
00:13:36 <ehird> fn defining a closure as a command obviously
00:13:39 <pikhq> Oh, wait. It almost is...
00:13:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Design for an orthogonal shell with closures.
00:13:56 <AnMaster> {} in find is NOT the same as function
00:14:02 <ehird> And, {} is shell syntax
00:14:08 <ehird> $ each * {x|echo $x}
00:14:12 <pikhq> Just need to do a bit of fiddling with tclreadline.
00:14:25 <ehird> $ each file1 file2 /tmp/osh.3478234/closure.349723
00:14:34 <ehird> each would be a builtin shell command, but needn't be
00:14:36 <ehird> and it'd come down to:
00:14:49 <ehird> foreach (args[0...-2]) { args[-1](it) }
00:14:52 <ehird> so you could also do
00:14:59 <ehird> to be a pointlessly verbose form of `rm *`
00:15:09 <ehird> and, since the closure files are executable, you can pass them to find, etc
00:15:13 <ehird> to do complex operations with find
00:15:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's pseudoC
00:15:25 <AnMaster> ehird, foreach is what a for does in bash
00:15:26 <ehird> I was demonstrating how each would be implemented
00:15:39 <AnMaster> for file in *; do echo "$file"; done
00:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: IT'S NOT SHELL SYNTAX
00:15:53 <ehird> I was telling you how "each" was implemented in the shell implementation language
00:16:01 <ehird> and I know bash kthx
00:16:11 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
00:16:13 <AnMaster> for ((i=0;i<10;i++)); do echo "$i"; done
00:16:31 <fizzie> I don't personally like the $*/$@ either; it feels a bit ugly that they do such strange things inside quotes; but I don't think my dislike is acute enough to switch shells.
00:17:04 <ehird> In My Shell(TM), it'd just be {*a| rm $~a}
00:17:16 <ehird> $~foo being "foo expanded out (i.e. not quoted)"
00:17:18 <ehird> because quoting is default
00:17:25 <ehird> and *a meaning "rest of arguments"
00:17:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, speaking of bash... how do you return a string from a bash shell-function?
00:17:41 <ehird> $ fn justLikeRm {a*| rm $~a}
00:17:44 <ehird> $ justLikeRm a b c
00:19:02 <fizzie> So do I need to call it inside $() or backticks if I want to stuff the "return value" in a variable? Guess so.
00:19:33 <ehird> fizzie: You can do foo=(bashSucks).
00:19:50 <ehird> That's the array syntax.
00:19:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do like the $*/$@ thing
00:19:56 <ehird> Why you using Bash anyway
00:20:09 <AnMaster> it allows you do do crazy things
00:20:13 <fizzie> How do I return a value from a function that prints out diagnostics to the user to stdout? (I guess by using a different pipe.)
00:20:23 <ehird> fizzie: You don't.
00:20:25 <fizzie> Oh, I certainly like that it exists, but I don't like the idea of it.
00:20:29 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Incidentally, speaking of bash... how do you return a string from a bash shell-function?
00:20:39 <AnMaster> is the more common, and slow way
00:20:50 <AnMaster> so setting global variables won't work
00:20:55 <ehird> And the amazing, envbot approved way...
00:21:02 <ehird> Is $("@$plaineval func)
00:21:09 <ehird> Which invokes an internal bash shell exploit.
00:21:21 <AnMaster> I will come to the envbot way soon
00:21:29 <ehird> "Factor VM ported to C++" WHY GOD WHY‽‽‽‽‽
00:21:52 <AnMaster> anyway one method is eval, like eval "\$$varname=\$varwithvalue"
00:22:01 <AnMaster> so I recommend the envbot way:
00:22:14 <AnMaster> printf -v "$varname" "%s" "$value"
00:22:35 <ehird> And you return via global variables?
00:22:40 <ehird> Neat. Your function calls must be ugly.
00:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, that is yet another way
00:22:50 <ehird> How do you return then?
00:22:51 <AnMaster> ehird, bash has dynamic scoping
00:22:53 <ehird> Vomiting over a baby?
00:22:57 <AnMaster> so I return to a local in the caller
00:23:39 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:23:39 <pikhq> That's some of the most horrid dynamic scoping I've seen.
00:24:02 <fizzie> So do you take the return-variable name as an argument or something? Or is it just mandated that all callers of that function must have a fixed-name parameter?
00:24:03 <AnMaster> ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; }
00:24:11 <pikhq> And I regularly program in a language that lets functions do things in the caller's scope.
00:24:17 <ehird> AnMaster: You're an awful person.
00:24:24 <ehird> An awful, awful person.
00:25:03 <ehird> caller() { callee "x="; echo "$x" }; callee() { eval "$1 hello" }
00:25:26 <ehird> If it doesn't work that's just because it's flexible
00:25:38 <ehird> caller() { callee echo; }
00:25:39 <AnMaster> ehird, eval is bug prone though. Not good in an IRC bot
00:25:45 <ehird> Truly a beautiful example of the continuation-vomiting style.
00:25:59 <ehird> AnMaster: your OS doesn't have cheap jails?
00:26:05 -!- puzzlet has joined.
00:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it does. But it shouldn't be needed
00:26:08 <pikhq> proc caller {} {callee myvar;puts $myvar};proc callee {var} {uplevel "set $var flimble"}
00:26:19 <ehird> actually, I should write some commands for extremely-cheap chroot jail creation and usage
00:26:22 <pikhq> That's what you're doing, in Tcl-ese...
00:26:51 <AnMaster> ehird, that thing TravelGreaseGod use?
00:26:56 <pikhq> Sticking it in a language that has dynamic scoping as a normal thing to do doesn't make it better.
00:27:01 <ehird> $ cjcreate ~/hello
00:27:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Definitely.
00:27:09 <ehird> $ cjadd myamazlinglibrary ~/hello
00:27:19 <ehird> $ cjadd ~/hello myamazlinglibrary
00:27:23 <pikhq> uplevel executes its argument in the caller's scope.
00:27:26 <ehird> $ cjexec ls ~/hello
00:27:31 <ehird> the last one being equivalent to:
00:27:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, hey it is a working and fast solution
00:27:40 <ehird> $ chroot ~/hello ls
00:27:50 <pikhq> (that's how the control structures are implemented)
00:27:53 <ehird> except setuid root, possibly
00:27:58 <ehird> why does chroot() require roo?
00:28:05 <ehird> because you can escape a chroot jail with it?
00:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that could be one reason
00:28:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's ugly.
00:28:32 <ehird> I'll make the chroot()-using tools setuid root, but then disallow chrooting below /
00:28:44 <ehird> Cheap, easy chroot jails in a few commands.
00:28:48 <ehird> You have no excuse not to use them ;-)
00:29:02 <pikhq> What if my OS supports jail()?
00:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I do. Because I need to interact with existing files
00:29:15 <AnMaster> like package database search for a gentoo related channel
00:29:25 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd have tools to give pathways into the parent, probably.
00:29:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, have you seen bashdoc btw?
00:29:34 <ehird> "Make hardlink in jail", for instance.
00:29:48 <ehird> Hmm, this OS X box has no jail()
00:30:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I've not touched bash since I learned of zsh.
00:30:02 <ehird> What does jail() give over chroot
00:30:14 <pikhq> Shame it keeps the bad of bash along with the good, though.
00:30:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/tools/bashdoc (note that I didn't write it originally, it is a modified version of the bashdoc program from sourcemage)
00:30:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, you will love this: http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/hash.sh
00:30:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: chroot can be perfectly secure
00:31:06 <ehird> you just don't let the jailed commands run as root
00:31:23 <pikhq> ehird, a jail is secure as root.
00:31:38 <ehird> why can't a chroot be secure
00:31:39 <pikhq> A jail also can have a different IP address.
00:31:40 <bsmntbombdood> a jail has different processes, different superuser, different filesystem
00:32:17 <AnMaster> a jail does limit network, and superuser, and processes though
00:32:33 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=jail&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+7.2-RELEASE&format=html
00:32:33 <AnMaster> file system could be just a subdir
00:32:38 <ehird> Network can be handled in other ways, don't give the jail superuser, and who cares about processes
00:32:46 <ehird> chroot handles like 90% of cases :P
00:33:00 <ehird> Argument by assertion.
00:33:10 <AnMaster> ehird, read the link bsmntbombdood provided
00:33:19 <ehird> I'm just saying that a chroot() is usually fine
00:33:32 <AnMaster> ehird, in less than 30 seconds?
00:33:39 <pikhq> If you're paranoid about the chroot security.
00:33:57 <ehird> pikhq: that's why I'm gonna make a toolchain to automate it :)
00:34:24 <AnMaster> ehird, how well does your befunge interpreter work atm?
00:34:40 <ehird> AnMaster: can you stop asking me that? it's an ongoing project that i haven't worked on for a few days
00:34:46 <ehird> are you trying to prove something?
00:34:49 <pikhq> Also, root escalation in a chroot is dangerous. root excalation in a jail is useless.
00:34:57 <ehird> it seems like you always bring it up when I diasgree with you
00:35:05 <AnMaster> ehird, no... what would I try to prove?
00:35:10 <ehird> pikhq: Root escalation is fucked up anyway
00:35:27 <pikhq> Jails can't create device nodes, can't mount or umount filesystems, can't modify their network configuration...
00:35:39 <ehird> ...execute instructions...
00:35:42 <AnMaster> can't see processes outside the jail
00:35:55 <ehird> I'm really failing to see actual issues here
00:35:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yep
00:36:03 <ehird> they'd be super fas
00:36:06 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That's a main use case.
00:36:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you'd need a script that renice's them a lot though
00:36:41 <ehird> you want renice for adaptive speeds
00:36:47 <ehird> so that people paying more get more of the idle time etc
00:37:01 <ehird> if I had a dedi and was virtual servering it out I'd use jail(), probably
00:37:04 <ehird> unless I wanted a linux
00:38:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: adjust ulimits
00:38:36 <ehird> it'd be an interesting project ... controlling a bunch of jail()s
00:38:46 <ehird> anyone want to donate a dedi for it? :-)
00:39:59 <ehird> damn, now that idea's perlocating in my head
00:40:18 <ehird> pikhq: maybe it's locating perl
00:40:46 <pikhq> How does one ocate?
00:41:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, using an ocater on an ocatee. duh
00:41:36 * pikhq needs to invent a new concept in CS just to call it "ocation".
00:42:12 <oerjan> <AnMaster> anyway important hint for the future: Should you ever need to write a Swedish name, song title or other word: Don't drop any dots. In the best case it will look rather silly. In the worst case it will either be incomprehensible or mean something totally different. <<< Ja val, forstatt
00:42:26 <ehird> Ocation: adjusting limits for various non-virtualized process jails automatically.
00:42:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, "yes whale, <gibberish>"?
00:43:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, quite a good example indeed
00:43:48 <AnMaster> might also mean "yes election, <gibberish>"
00:44:18 <bsmntbombdood> i don't see anything in the man page about ulimits
00:44:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it just jails a process
00:44:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so ulimit that process
00:45:28 <ehird> pikhq: It leads to the catchy name for the "v"ps host based on it: Ocator. :-P
00:47:07 <ehird> "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution"
00:47:18 <ehird> "No Person except a natural born Citizen at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution"
00:47:38 <ehird> Holy shit all the presidents born after the ratification of the constitution have been invalid
00:48:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, did you check http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/hash.sh
00:48:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: they're not shared?
00:48:37 <bsmntbombdood> which means you can only set the ram limit per process, and not per jail
00:48:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you like it then? :)
00:48:42 <ehird> then ulimits are useless
00:48:43 <oerjan> logic terrorists: endangering america by tying the constitution into knots
00:48:45 <ehird> just fork and use some more
00:49:01 <pikhq> Yes, but Intercal is meant to be bad.
00:49:13 <pikhq> bash is not meant.
00:49:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just watch the process for children and adjust the ulimits based on their usage
00:49:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you'll be dynamically adjusting them anyway
00:49:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah I rather suspected that bash wasn't meant, rather it was an accident.
00:49:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, is here an alternative to ulimits?
00:50:04 <pikhq> Yeah, that's bash.
00:50:07 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: it seems like jails ought to support soemthing like that
00:50:08 <pikhq> And, really, all shells.
00:50:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway you hate IOCCC then?
00:50:15 <pikhq> (except for csh. That is evil)
00:50:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I merely joke about hating you.
00:50:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: One thing's for sure is that a jail() based "V"PS would be way faster than Xen and UML and all of that crap
00:51:00 <ehird> Sets the kern.securelevel sysctl variable to the specified
00:51:01 <ehird> value inside the newly created jail.
00:51:03 <ehird> Oy, what's that do then
00:51:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you dare look at module loading/unloading?
00:51:24 <AnMaster> http://envbot.kuonet.org/trac/browser/anmaster-trunk/lib/modules.sh
00:51:45 <bsmntbombdood> securelevel doesn't have anything to do with ulimits
00:51:51 <pikhq> ehird: Xen is very freaking fast.
00:52:05 <ehird> pikhq: As fast as jail()?
00:52:17 <AnMaster> with hardware support it should be close
00:52:17 <pikhq> The difference is negligible, I'm sure.
00:52:30 <AnMaster> I used both freebsd jails and xen
00:52:32 <ehird> I have a Xen server
00:52:35 <ehird> It's not a fast as the host
00:52:40 <ehird> It's really fucking fast for a VM
00:52:43 <ehird> But it's obviously a VM
00:52:46 <ehird> whereas a jail() has 0 overhead
00:52:52 <pikhq> Probably the emulated devices.
00:52:57 <ehird> the only limits being what the ocator sets
00:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, quotas are a PITA in jails though
00:53:21 <pikhq> In fact, I'm rather certain of that; good God, the context switches that it goes through for disk access.
00:53:29 <AnMaster> unless you have one partition / jail
00:53:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Slicehost do one partition
00:53:48 <ehird> It's not a big deal for most VPSes
00:53:53 <pikhq> Ring 3 to ring 1 to ring 0 to ring 1 to ring 3 to ring 1 to ring 0 to ring 1 to ring 3.
00:53:53 <ehird> they're too small to warrant partitioning
00:54:00 <ehird> pikhq: jails or xen
00:54:03 <AnMaster> ehird, then quotas doesn't work. And I need per-user quotas on my servers
00:54:09 <ehird> AnMaster: sure quotas work...
00:54:29 <pikhq> What sort of jail goes through that many context switches for disk access?
00:54:30 <bsmntbombdood> if you use 1 partition per user you can't overcommit disk space
00:54:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: this is arguably a good thing.
00:54:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Xen runs the OS in ring 1 instead of the usual ring 0.
00:54:51 <ehird> if you tell someone they can have N gigabytes, and they can't, you suck dicks.
00:55:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, so it can't use SYSENTER/SYSEXIT stuff?
00:55:12 <pikhq> That's the syscall stuff.
00:55:16 <ehird> besides, disk is cheap
00:55:24 <AnMaster> err SYSCALL/SYSENTER, same thing really iirc
00:55:26 <ehird> a regular 10GB VM ... you can host 1,000 users with just 10TB of storage
00:55:45 <pikhq> And actually, I think that SYSENTER and SYSEXIT in Xen go to the hypervisor which sends it to the kernel.
00:56:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: let's say 24gb
00:56:29 <pikhq> That's for the paravirtualisation, rather.
00:56:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about with hardware support then
00:56:40 <pikhq> For the hardware-assisted stuff, um.
00:56:42 <ehird> 2tb WD drive on newegg: $279.99
00:56:51 <AnMaster> still a lot of emulation overhead
00:57:01 <pikhq> Actually, I think that just lets the hypervisor trap it instead of the kernel needing to be patched to handle it.
00:57:34 <pikhq> The solution on *Linux* is to make the entry gate not do sysenter.
00:57:37 <ehird> 1000 users with 24gib storage each
00:57:59 <ehird> which is 12 x 2TB drives
00:58:14 <ehird> That's dirt cheap for a host
00:58:30 <pikhq> (Linux, in addition to supporting int 8h and sysenter, has an "entry gate", which is just a function that does whatever's fastest)
00:58:31 <ehird> $3k to host a thousand users is basically fine, assuming you don't intend to grow to megahuge size
00:58:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: conclusion - overcommitting is mostly unneccessary
00:59:25 <ehird> and also, 24GiB is basically more than most VPS users need
00:59:50 <ehird> you can get by with 8 drives to serve 1,000 users on 16gib
01:00:16 <ehird> and really, I don't think anyone could argue that that's prohibitive for a VPS host
01:00:22 <ehird> compared to the price of the CPUs
01:00:24 <pikhq> ehird: If you do grow to megahuge size, you're getting paid well enough to expand. ;)
01:00:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you won't have 1000 users per server, more like 100 per server at most
01:00:38 <ehird> let's say $25/mo for a 24gib vps
01:00:57 <ehird> which simply dwarfs the $3k cost for storage
01:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: of course
01:01:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah; that's because of CPU usage, not HD usage.
01:01:02 <ehird> I was just being hypothetical
01:01:05 <pikhq> Which is his point.
01:01:30 <pikhq> If it's light usage, 100 is feasible.
01:01:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what?
01:01:47 <pikhq> (light, like "Geocities". ;))
01:01:48 <ehird> $25/mo for 24gib is really cheap
01:01:58 <ehird> more usual is $25 for 10gb
01:02:07 <pikhq> ehird: 100 users per server.
01:02:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Harddrive maker bytes.
01:02:25 <pikhq> ehird: That would be a GB.
01:02:47 <ehird> pikhq: nobody says gibibyte
01:02:49 <pikhq> GiB is the unambiguous way of saying that you're using the binary prefixes.
01:03:07 <bsmntbombdood> binary prefixes are the only sensible ones for storage anyway
01:03:12 <pikhq> A gibibyte is 1024 mebibytes, which is 1024 kibibytes, which is 1024 bytes.
01:03:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It's not what harddrive makers use
01:03:27 <ehird> Anyway, $25 for 24gb storage is cheap & reasonable.
01:04:34 <ehird> It occurs to me that being a VPS hoster is terribly profitable.
01:04:45 <AnMaster> both 10-based and binary are WAY off
01:05:03 <ehird> If you have 100 users paying $25/mo, you're earning $2,500 a month.
01:05:06 <AnMaster> ternary-based is the only sane way
01:05:20 <ehird> For a few hundred in dedi maintenance costs.
01:05:31 <ehird> And 100 users would be a pretty small VPS host...
01:05:32 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: half of that will go to colocation and bandwidth, a quarter to hardware
01:05:49 <ehird> I don't seem to remember colo being awfully expensive
01:06:15 <ehird> anyway, $625 in profit is still quite nice for such a small userbase
01:07:31 <AnMaster> night (not IRCing from bed tonight
01:07:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'm considering it :-)
01:08:00 <ehird> can a 13 year old even legally start a business
01:08:05 <ehird> i sort of doubt it
01:13:09 <ehird> Hey, I thought of another advantage of jails.
01:13:25 <ehird> Since it doesn't have to do virtualization, the tax on the server is less = cheaper to run
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01:14:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: balanced ternary, of course, otherwise you'd get an imbalance of positive charge
01:15:00 <ehird> oerjan: think I should start a VPS hosting business?
01:15:50 <Sgeo> "The game cannot continue: Please change your display settings to be 'High Color (16 bit)'"
01:18:39 <oerjan> i don't have the foggiest clue
01:19:04 <oerjan> well apart from the possible 13 year old problems
01:25:49 <pikhq> ehird: The trick is getting a few hundred users in the first place. ;)
01:26:07 <pikhq> Once you hit the break-even point, you're good.
01:26:54 <Sgeo> http://static.cbslocal.com/station/wcbs/img/flyover.jpg looks very CGIish
01:26:59 <ehird> pikhq: My first plan would be getting people I know on and having them do a bit of evangelizing ;-)
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01:30:01 <ehird> pikhq: Hmm... I'm trying to decide between Quad-Core 3.2GHz Intel Nehalems, Quad-Core 2.7GHz AMD Opterons and 6-Core 2.4GHz Dunningtons for the hypothetical server...
01:30:26 <ehird> The 6-core not being the most computationally powerful processor (it's last-generation, I beleive) and also being the most expensive, but I get 12 cores total then.
01:30:38 <ehird> The Nehalem being the best computational-wise, but I could only have two of them due to Intel being silly.
01:30:58 <oerjan> !slashes /a\\a/a\\aa\\a/a\a
01:30:58 <ehird> The Opteron not being the best computational-wise too, but it's cheap and I can have four of them.
01:31:06 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
01:31:30 <ehird> The cores: Nehalem - 8 (16 threads), Opteron - 16, Dunnington - 16
01:31:33 <ehird> pikhq: True enough.
01:31:41 <pikhq> You want to be able to crap out a hundred of these without too much effort if you *really* need to. ;)
01:31:59 <oerjan> !slashes /a\\a/a\\aa\\a/a\\a
01:32:01 <ehird> pikhq: OTOH, the range is $1,699 (nehalem) to $1,825 (opteron) to $2,399 (dunnington)
01:32:10 <ehird> pikhq: The dunnington is probably not the best option.
01:32:26 <pikhq> Opteron or Nehalem.
01:32:32 <ehird> Nehalem would give better performance and is cheaper; but the Opteron lets me have more cores, which is always a good thing when you have a lot of users.
01:32:54 <pikhq> Actually, in this case Opteron would be better performance.
01:32:57 <ehird> And also, saying "With the latest Intel Nehalem(TM) technology" is more catchy than "Using a regular AMD server CPU"
01:33:05 <pikhq> The Opteron does NUMA.
01:33:06 <ehird> Better parallelism?
01:33:31 <ehird> Now how many would I want in one server...
01:33:40 <oerjan> !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a
01:33:44 <ehird> With a 4-processor mobo, I wonder if there'd be any issues using 3?
01:33:55 <pikhq> AMD's not the best when it comes to consumer gear. Their architecture scales like crazy, though.
01:34:03 <pikhq> I honestly don't know.
01:34:14 <ehird> That would seem to be the right balance between parallelism and "I Can Shit These Out Of My Butt If I Need To"
01:34:38 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/xx\/\/x\/a\\\\a\//**a\a
01:35:14 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/xx\/\/x\/a\\\\a\//***a\a
01:35:24 <pikhq> Oh, Nehalem supports NUMA now.
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01:35:33 <ehird> pikhq: Nehalem can give me 16 cores for $3398 whereas Opteron can give me 12 cores for $5475
01:35:34 <oerjan> !slashes /*/ffff/***a\a
01:35:37 <ehird> Leaning to Nehalem now
01:35:39 <pikhq> It's the first Intel x86 chip that does.
01:35:49 <ehird> Nehalem can give me 16 THREADS
01:36:00 <ehird> which is probably more important than cores for VPSes; they can't max them out
01:36:04 <pikhq> Hyperthreading is a hack to get around poor pipelining.
01:36:14 <ehird> That's true, but it works, doesn't it.
01:37:05 <ehird> pikhq: Also, I'm not sure what the effects of having three Opterons in a 4-CPU mobo would be.
01:37:46 <ehird> I think I'll go Nehalem. It's cheaper, after all.
01:37:58 <oerjan> !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a
01:39:28 <pikhq> Oh, *damn*... Apparently, hyperthreading tends to increase cache thrashing by about 50%...
01:39:44 <ehird> Won't be doing that then.
01:39:50 <ehird> Esp. since the Nehalem's L2 is puny.
01:40:03 <oerjan> !slashes /a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//\//|//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a//a\\a/xx//x/a\\a/a\a
01:40:04 <EgoBot> |aa|aaaa||aa|aa||aa|aaaa||aa|aa|aaaa
01:40:06 <pikhq> And it tends to screw with scheduling.
01:40:17 <ehird> pikhq: Still, $7300 for four Opterons is pretty costly.
01:40:32 <pikhq> You don't need to have four of the damned things.
01:40:46 <ehird> But I'll probably want more than 8 cores.
01:41:01 <ehird> pikhq: remember, the jails are running instructions direct on the processor
01:41:18 <pikhq> The solution is to wait for Intel to start making the 8-core chips.
01:41:47 <ehird> pikhq: ya think using 3 Opterons in a 4-slot mobo would work?
01:42:01 <ehird> It sounds like the kind of thing that should work but will fry your computer ;-)
01:42:20 * pikhq also checketh down
01:42:27 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/x\\x\/\/x\\x\/a\\\\aa\\\\a\//***a\a
01:42:36 <ehird> pikhq: Checketh down?
01:42:46 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/a\\\\a\/x\\x\/\/x\\x\/a\\\\aa\\\\a\//**********a\a
01:42:46 <EgoBot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
01:42:47 <ehird> 3 opterons would give me 12 cores, which should be very much adequate
01:43:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hypothetical server for VPSery.
01:44:14 <pikhq> In other words, something practical.
01:44:33 <ehird> Practical, but performing, with an emphasis on parallelism over raw throughput.
01:44:49 <pikhq> Talk to IBM about a mainframe. :p
01:44:59 <ehird> pikhq: Hm, er... do the Opterons support DDR3?
01:45:03 <ehird> I'm not getting that vibe
01:45:55 <ehird> "Next-gen Opteron/DDR3 in 2009 - News and Siteseeing"
01:46:05 <ehird> pikhq: Back to Nehalem, I suppose.
01:47:20 * pikhq finds it increasingly tempting to upgrade his personal system...
01:47:44 <pikhq> 1 core -> 4 cores. 1 GB -> 4 GB or more. Um. Yeah...
01:48:08 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Student budget.
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01:48:18 <pikhq> We're talking about $200.
01:48:44 <pikhq> And I need a new motherboard in there.
01:48:54 <pikhq> (just *had* to skimp on my last one, didn't I?)
01:49:39 <pikhq> Low-end, obviously.
01:51:46 <pikhq> Keep in mind that I've been dealing with an old single-core processor... This will still seem like a major upgrade to me.
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01:57:43 <oerjan> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html :D
01:58:28 <pikhq> I... *Just* found that link from somewhere else.
01:58:38 <pikhq> I was literally about to paste it.
01:58:51 <pikhq> DAMN YOU OERJAN!!! :p
01:59:38 <oerjan> (this link pasted for the 5% of #esoteric members not following reddit)
02:01:03 * pikhq should follow reddit, though.
02:01:41 * pikhq loves the description of Haskell
02:02:01 * oerjan hasn't got to that yet
02:02:25 <oerjan> i stopped at the prolog description to paste
02:08:03 <pikhq> That part is not a joke.
02:08:15 <pikhq> (true but false) anyone?
02:08:44 <oerjan> "Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript.
02:09:11 <oerjan> what skin disease is that, anyhow?
02:09:58 <pikhq> It sounds vaguely like eczema.
02:10:38 <pikhq> And sounds a lot like some sort of skin disease.
02:14:30 <pikhq> Nah. They are far, far too easy on C#.
02:27:05 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8itq7/a_brief_incomplete_and_mostly_wrong_history_of/c09f5ur
02:27:35 <pikhq> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/08/obama-mustard-attack-beco_n_199953.html
02:27:51 <pikhq> Republicans accuse Obama of elitism because he orders spicy mustard on his burger.
02:27:55 <pikhq> I freaking hate humanity.
02:43:46 <Gracenotes> heh. I'm watching the Daily Show episode on that at the moment...
02:45:37 <Gracenotes> for my once-weekly-entertainment-spree >_>
02:55:00 <pikhq> Eh, you're forgiven. The Daily Show is worth watching.
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03:16:48 * pikhq bows before the former diety of traveled grease
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03:21:26 <GregorR> Sneaky 'o' key, pushing its way in on the 'i' key's territory.
03:22:06 <comex> what I don't like about haskell is exceptions :<
03:22:18 <comex> though I love the type
03:22:23 <comex> throw :: (Exception e) => e -> a
03:22:33 <pikhq> What I don't like about haskell is that I don't know enough math to understand monads. :p
03:23:25 <Gracenotes> What I don't like about C is that I don't know enough math to understand pointer arithmetic...... oh wait...
03:23:40 <GregorR> Gracenotes: You may want to revisit the third grade :P
03:24:19 <Gracenotes> heh. for pointers, it's mainly the syntax that gets you at first
03:25:07 <Gracenotes> easy peasy once you're comfortable. same with monads, and uncountable other language features
03:25:20 <Gracenotes> ... or should I say countably infinite? :o
03:25:44 <comex> I don't understand not understanding pointers
03:25:47 <comex> I do understand not understanding monads
03:25:52 <GregorR> I don't understand not understanding not understanding pointers.
03:25:55 <oerjan> i don't understand not understanding monads
03:25:56 <comex> this is because I understand the former, and not the latter
03:26:09 <Gracenotes> other things that are not intuitive whatsoever at first
03:26:12 <oerjan> BWAHAHAHA *CACKLE* *COUGH*
03:26:17 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's one of those things that you wrap your head around and then it makes perfect, perfect sense.
03:26:35 <pikhq> oerjan: You've got an Erdos number smaller than mine; shaddup.
03:26:41 <Gracenotes> now monads, like typeclasses in general, are abstract. They're like uber design patterns
03:26:55 <comex> well, that's not true. I understand monads, in the sense of how to use the list and maybe monads, declare a new monad (+google), whatever
03:26:58 <Gracenotes> just use specific cases of them. you'' be fine
03:27:02 <comex> but I don't have an "intuitive" grasp of monads yet
03:27:08 <GregorR> psygnisfive: "published" in
03:27:16 <Gracenotes> list and maybe are a good start. Try State now :)
03:27:21 <psygnisfive> oh i see. i didnt realize oopsla was a publication
03:27:33 <Gracenotes> State is a pretty big hurdle but getting past it is significant
03:28:01 <comex> and then I have to figure out monoids
03:28:10 <pikhq> GregorR: Oh, you have an Erdos number now? :p
03:28:13 <comex> and why do I want to learn a state monad in Haskell
03:28:20 <GregorR> pikhq: Probably a very high one :P
03:29:35 <pikhq> Oh, you're at a conference.
03:29:49 <pikhq> OOPSLA is a conference, not a journal. XD
03:29:59 <pikhq> GregorR: Well, then, your Erdos number is 7.
03:30:00 <Gracenotes> it is essentially a monad wrapping around an action, not a data structure. It shows even more so how they chain actions. and you basically get understanding Reader and Writer for free
03:30:10 <pikhq> Making its way through two other members of this chat room.
03:30:30 <GregorR> How does that establish it as 7?
03:30:45 <pikhq> Assuming you count working on a program together, sorry.
03:31:21 <Gracenotes> I have an Erdos number of .. undefined
03:31:22 <pikhq> Oerjan has an Erdos number of 5, he and I collaborated for PEBBLE, giving me an Erdos of 6. You and I collaborated for PEBBLE, giving you an Erdos number of 7. :p
03:31:34 <Gracenotes> no papers whatsoever. undergrad! *cringes*
03:31:59 <Gracenotes> I submit homework for you TAs to grade! *mwahahaha*
03:32:13 <pikhq> Gracenotes: I'm an undergrad myself.
03:32:16 <oerjan> pikhq: 4, thank you very much
03:32:26 <pikhq> oerjan: My apologies.
03:32:28 <Gracenotes> oh, nice :D when did you publish your first paper?
03:32:52 <pikhq> Have yet to. I said "assuming you count working on a program together". ;)
03:33:23 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Published work".
03:33:48 <Sgeo> So far, Free Realms is leaving a bad taste in my mouth
03:33:56 <pikhq> Some work published work of research.
03:34:22 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The question is, does PEBBLE count as a research project? :p
03:34:32 <GregorR> Me -> Jan Vitek -> Nir Shavit -> Michael E. Saks -> Erdos
03:35:24 <pikhq> Well, then. If PEBBLE doesn't count as a research project, does Plof?
03:35:41 <GregorR> pikhq: Only whenif I publish anything about it :P
03:35:45 <pikhq> I mean, it's a tiny bit unique as far as programming languages go.
03:35:56 * oerjan feels his #esoteric 1337-ness slipping
03:36:17 <pikhq> GregorR: Plof itself might count as a published work.
03:37:09 <Gracenotes> pikhq: ... sorry, when did you publish a paper? O-o
03:37:29 <pikhq> Gracenotes: I have yet to, as I said previously.
03:37:37 <GregorR> It really only counts if it's a research paper :P
03:37:45 <pikhq> GregorR: Yeah, shaddup.
03:37:56 <Gracenotes> pikhq: ah, okay. Doing any research, by chance?
03:38:13 <pikhq> Inevitably will be.
03:38:19 * pikhq plans to do grad school
03:38:36 <Gracenotes> okay. just wondrin. People going to research universities can get started somewhat early-ish, I've heard
03:38:50 <pikhq> Though my university does allow for undergrad research.
03:44:04 <comex> execState (tick >>= (\x -> tick >>= (\y -> return y))) 5
03:46:51 <comex> execState (tick >>= (\x -> return 42)) 8
03:47:29 <oerjan> what's the definition of tick?
03:47:47 <comex> tick :: State Int Int
03:47:47 <comex> tick = do n <- get
03:47:59 <comex> oerjan: what's the difference
03:48:04 <oerjan> execState only returns the final state
03:48:11 <oerjan> evalState only the final result
03:48:17 <oerjan> runState returns both in a tuple
03:49:16 <Gracenotes> and the way this works with lazy state is pretty interesting too :)
03:52:49 <comex> *Main> execState (tick >>= (\x -> tock >>= (\y -> return y))) 5
03:52:58 <comex> where tock is multiply by two
03:53:05 <comex> performs tick FIRST
03:53:46 <comex> well, I guess it makes more sense in do notation that way...
03:54:22 <oerjan> i think i actually saw someone make a ReversedState monad
03:54:31 <oerjan> which does the opposite
03:54:55 <oerjan> it probably needs one to be careful with deadlocks, though
03:55:20 <oerjan> since you would then have information passing both ways
03:55:59 <oerjan> the \x and \y are always passed to the right
03:56:12 <oerjan> as you can tell just by scope
03:56:31 <oerjan> but that monad somehow managed to make state change backwards
03:57:44 <comex> I still don't see why not run the inner function first
03:57:49 <comex> but I don't get states either so :p
03:58:16 <oerjan> monads differ in whether they mostly run the left or right part of >>= first
03:58:27 <comex> as in, I don't see where you would use a state instead of a function (a, b) -> (a, b)
04:00:04 <oerjan> comex: here's something that might help show you why it must be like that
04:00:05 <comex> mainly because every example I've seen is of the form
04:00:36 <oerjan> define tack n = do m <- get; put (m+n); return m
04:00:55 <comex> but why not replace it with f foo = (bar, qux)
04:00:57 <oerjan> (just to keep that tradition ;) )
04:01:14 <oerjan> oh i'm still on a previous question
04:01:38 <comex> with do notation it looks all nice and forwards
04:01:52 <oerjan> comex: indeed f foo = (bar, qux) is essentially what it is inside
04:02:52 <oerjan> now try execState (tick >>= (\x -> tack x >>= (\y -> return y))) 5
04:03:02 <comex> well, I have yet to see an example that doesn't have exactly those two lines
04:03:25 <oerjan> you then see that tack x cannot possibly run before you know what x is
04:03:44 <oerjan> (well, ignoring laziness, which might allow it anyhow)
04:03:54 <oerjan> which means it must run after the tick
04:05:11 <oerjan> comex: as for why not replace it with f foo = (bar, qux)
04:05:14 <comex> ah, that makes sense
04:05:19 <comex> you're not getting a meaningful return value
04:05:22 <comex> but you are getting a meaningful parameter
04:05:46 <oerjan> well if you do that you could not use all the nice monad combinators that work on _all_ monads for it
04:06:31 <oerjan> for example, with import Control.Monad you can do:
04:07:10 <oerjan> runState (replicateM 5 tick) 10
04:07:47 <comex> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/src/Control-Monad.html#sequence
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04:08:18 <oerjan> yeah replicateM is just ordinary replicate + sequence
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04:09:11 <oerjan> try runState (sequence [tick, tock, tick, tock]) 5
04:10:15 <oerjan> actually you can even try:
04:10:48 <oerjan> evalState (sequence (cycle [tick, tock])) 5
04:11:51 <oerjan> er maybe i should have warned you about infinite output :D
04:12:32 * GregorR wishes there was more Haskell at Purdue.
04:12:39 <comex> I didn't actually run it :p
04:12:59 <oerjan> take 20 $ evalState (sequence (cycle [tick, tock])) 5
04:13:07 <oerjan> if you want to abbreviate a bit
04:13:09 <Sgeo> ...Free Realms sent me 11 emails saying that my name has been approved
04:13:26 <GregorR> Sgeo: Well, they reaaaaaaaaaaaaally approve of it.
04:13:50 <comex> I want a picture :(
04:13:51 <oerjan> comex: ok if you hadn't run it then what was it that sucked? :D
04:13:55 <comex> but I'm going to bed, maybe I'll run it tomorrow
04:14:01 <comex> oerjan: well, I knew it was going to do something infinite!
04:14:10 <Sgeo> They're sending an email every 1-2 minutes
04:14:25 <comex> maybe I'll understand it tomorrow :)
04:14:29 <Sgeo> Wait, no, there's a 13 minute gap
04:14:40 <oerjan> comex: well this is a gradual process
04:15:01 <Sgeo> comex, of the emails?
04:16:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: did you ask to be approved?
04:16:50 <Sgeo> oerjan, since I used a custom name, it had to be approved before it could be used
04:29:45 <GregorR> So, I'm wondering if the American stereotype of a Swedish accent has anything to do with reality.
04:30:01 <GregorR> As far as I can tell, there's no similarity whatsoever.
04:30:42 <GregorR> It's not even just taken to the extreme or something, it just has nothing to do with anything.
04:32:50 <pikhq> The American stereotype of a Swedish accent has more to do with the Muppets than anything else.
04:37:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah; wasn't aware that anyone overseas would've seen that.
04:38:28 <oerjan> the muppet show was shown in norway already when we had a single state channel
04:38:52 <oerjan> which means that pretty much _everyone_ of that age has seen it
04:39:29 <oerjan> mind you that was a while ago and i may not remember that much of it
04:39:43 <pikhq> So, that's a piece of Americana that's about as well-known in Norway. Got it.
04:42:07 <GregorR> What piece of Norweigicana is known in the US?
04:42:31 <oerjan> the nobel price and, well, that's about it
04:42:54 <oerjan> beowulf is not particularly norwegian
04:43:02 <pikhq> (not necessarily Norwegian. Close?)
04:43:10 <oerjan> but then, i don't know beowulf
04:43:32 <oerjan> ok i vaguely recall it's mostly set in denmark and sweden or something
04:43:41 <oerjan> and that it's in old english
04:44:01 <pikhq> Scandinavian, at least.
04:44:48 <oerjan> might be too class-dependent...
04:45:34 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be _something_ from after the 19th century
04:45:55 <pikhq> Start naming things.
04:46:41 <oerjan> this may be complicated by the fact that for ten years or so, _i_ haven't got much of a clue what's hot in norway :D
04:47:23 * GregorR 's Americanness seeps into Europe
04:47:47 <pikhq> Henrik Ibsen isn't well-known amongst the general populace, but decently known amongst literature buffs.
04:47:51 <oerjan> (i don't play MMORPGs, but i know that's made in norway)
04:48:06 <pikhq> Age of Conan MMORPG is known *of*...
04:48:17 <pikhq> Not the most popular MMO, but it has a niche.
04:48:43 <pikhq> "The Scream" is something people don't realise they know. :p
04:49:49 <oerjan> it's our main diary export i think
04:49:51 <pikhq> Didn't know that was a kind of cheese.
04:50:09 <pikhq> We're Americans - we don't know things from other continents. :p
04:50:11 <oerjan> well i saw it when i was in the us
04:50:35 <pikhq> Doesn't mean I know what it is. XD
04:51:30 <oerjan> (if it's known, then it's probably as something to scare children with :D)
04:51:39 <pikhq> Never had it, which is kinda surprising considering the amount of family I have in Minnesota.
04:52:01 <pikhq> (Minnesota was settled by Norwegian immigrants)
04:52:29 <pikhq> And it's something to scare children with, definitely.
04:52:36 <pikhq> (good God, it's *caustic*!)
04:52:51 <oerjan> possibly whale meat, although we try not to remind you of it :D
04:53:31 <GregorR> Except for those common Norwegian-Amerindians :P
04:53:44 <pikhq> I think Norwegian cuisine is the most likely to be known in the US...
04:53:57 <pikhq> Except for the few fans of Norwegian metal, I guess? :p
04:54:08 <oerjan> brown cheese just to complete the stereotypically bad norwegian cuisine
04:54:11 * GregorR wonders what Norwegian cuisine is :P
04:54:26 <pikhq> GregorR: Visit Minnesota. You'll know.
04:54:31 <oerjan> (strangely enough norway has had several internationally award-winning chefs)
04:54:45 <GregorR> Or fish, just to cover both of those bases.
04:54:50 <oerjan> but i doubt they're cuisine is very traditional
04:55:00 <pikhq> That covers a good chunk of Norwegian cuisine.
04:55:10 * pikhq shoves sushi down GregorR's throat
04:55:21 <oerjan> it doesn't cover fårikål though
04:55:32 <oerjan> which was once voted the national dish
04:56:23 <pikhq> Actually sounds rather tasty, if a bit simple.
04:56:34 <oerjan> (that would be the relatively small black kind of pepper)
04:56:48 <pikhq> Ah, yeah... I was about to say.
04:56:55 <GregorR> pikhq: I like those sushi things that don't contain fish.
04:57:04 <pikhq> Kinda surprising to see capsicum in Norway.
04:57:15 <pikhq> GregorR: Mmm... Fair enough.
04:57:20 <oerjan> um is that what it is?
04:57:39 <pikhq> Capsicum is the genus of chili peppers.
04:57:42 <GregorR> Fårikål is a traditional Norwegian dish, consisting of pieces of mutton with bone, cabbage, whole black pepper and a little wheat flour, cooked for several hours in a casserole, traditionally served with potatoes boiled in their jackets.
04:57:51 <oerjan> well that is not what you use in fårikål
04:58:06 <oerjan> it's a very seasonal dish, btw
04:58:09 <GregorR> Now to find one of those popular on-every-corner Norwegian restaurants.
04:58:22 <GregorR> Americans have no conception of seasonality.
04:59:12 <pikhq> Mother Nature is America's bitch. :p
04:59:44 <GregorR> I would make a joke about eating an extremely-out-of-season fruit, but I literally have no conception of what fruits are in season at what time.
05:00:05 <pikhq> A hint: they're out of season in the winter.
05:00:25 <GregorR> There are fruits that are in season in the winter! Just not many.
05:00:27 <Sgeo> GregorR, same her
05:00:34 <oerjan> it depends what you mean
05:00:49 <oerjan> for example few norwegians eat figs and dates other than christmas
05:01:20 <oerjan> of course those are generaly dried
05:01:20 <pikhq> Hmm. Apparently pears and tangerines are in season during the winter.
05:01:48 <Sgeo> Free Realms is still spamming me
05:02:11 <oerjan> maybe google to see if it's a known problem?
05:02:12 <Sgeo> Although there was a 45 minute gap between the latest junk
05:03:05 <GregorR> Sgeo: Years from now, you'll be receiving it still, but so rarely that you always forget about it until you get another one.
05:03:58 <Sgeo> If it sends an email every time a separate mod approves it, then it might pick up tomorrow, or keep going for weeks, until it runs dry
05:08:44 * pikhq observes that American cuisine is very, very freaking odd...
05:09:09 <GregorR> pikhq: American cuisine: Take something simple, put cheese on it.
05:09:27 <pikhq> GregorR: That covers some things.
05:09:35 <pikhq> *cough* Cheeseburgers.
05:10:01 <Sgeo> GregorR, I'm eating Pasta and cheese tonight... just like most nights
05:10:32 <pikhq> Doesn't cover how somehow Italian, Mexican, and Chinese foods have somehow morphed into being a major part of our national cuisine...
05:11:11 <pikhq> Or, for that matter, British or Native American foods.
05:11:22 <pikhq> (or freaking adoration of corn. :p)
05:11:51 <GregorR> British "cuisine" is not dissimilar to American "cuisine"
05:12:06 <GregorR> Less focus on cheese, more focus on flavorless and fattening.
05:12:29 <pikhq> I thought that American cuisine had cornered the market on fattening.
05:12:52 <pikhq> The Brits may have such things as frying bread in bacon grease, but we, *we* have fast-food.
05:13:23 <GregorR> One day in an English pub I had eggs not-actually-over-hard-but-we'll-forgive-them-they're-British, baked beans, the liver of a whiskey-fed-chicken, mushrooms and fried tomato.
05:14:55 <pikhq> Also, not all British cuisine these days is flavorless; remember, curry has become a national dish for them. ;)
05:15:22 <GregorR> The McDonalds' there have curry for fries (chips)
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05:18:44 <pikhq> Also, they have tea. Any other culinary sins they make are forgiven by that alone.
05:19:03 * pikhq is fond of tea, in case you couldn't tell
05:19:55 <pikhq> Do I sense someone who has been mistreated by American tea 'sensibilities'?
05:20:42 <GregorR> I'm hyposmic, so it tastes like bitter water to me.
05:21:50 * pikhq notes that bad tea, coffee, and beer *is* bitter water.
05:22:17 <GregorR> My insane tea friends took me about seven or eight times to this deluxe absurdly-expensive tea place.
05:22:19 <pikhq> But with hyposmia, good tea, coffee, and beer might be a bit lost on you. :/
05:22:38 <pikhq> Reduced sense of smell.
05:22:57 <pikhq> GregorR: So, nothing with subtle flavors for you.
05:23:22 <GregorR> Or at least, no subtle flavors if there's also a significant bitter flavor to overwhelm :P
05:23:23 <pikhq> I hope you're at least fond of spicy foods. :p
05:23:28 <Sgeo> Is it possible to have hyposmia and not know it?
05:23:46 <GregorR> Sgeo: Hyposmia is a symptom, not a disease.
05:23:59 <GregorR> Sgeo: Which is to say, if you think you're hyposmic, you're hyposmic :P
05:24:16 <GregorR> Sgeo: But if you've never cooked a rotten chicken only for your roommate to come home and go "holy shit WTF is that smell", you're probably not.
05:24:18 <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm just bad with tastes. I notice other smells just fine
05:24:28 * pikhq likes his food with either subtle flavors or incredibly strong flavors
05:24:40 <pikhq> Mmm, salt and vinegar chips...
05:24:44 <Sgeo> (or at least, what I think is just fine)
05:26:10 <GregorR> pikhq: I don't like inviting friends over, because the experience often exposes odors I was not aware of ...
05:26:45 <pikhq> Meanwhile I, if anything, exhibit hyperosmia.
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05:27:21 <pikhq> ("fun" when combined with autism)
05:32:09 <GregorR> <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm just bad with tastes. I notice other smells just fine
05:32:13 <GregorR> Also, I'm not bad with tastes :P
05:32:30 <GregorR> The subset of food which really /requires/ smell (a subset I am uniquely qualified to identify) is quite small.
05:33:06 <pikhq> I'd imagine soda would be just fine.
05:33:08 <pikhq> Beyond that, well...
05:33:22 <Sgeo> But how would you distinguish between different sodas?
05:33:22 <GregorR> Yeah, I drink soda. I wurve the bubblitude :P
05:33:46 <GregorR> Sgeo: I can tell the difference between all sodas, and have a distinct (and distinctive!) favorite.
05:34:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Soda flavor is anything but subtle.
05:34:07 <Sgeo> I thought taste only existed for very general things ("sweet" etc)
05:34:24 <pikhq> Scent gives extra detail on flavors.
05:34:24 <Sgeo> And beyond that is smell, or maybe I'm just very confused and tired right now
05:34:37 <pikhq> Try tasting stuff with your nose plugged.
05:35:19 <pikhq> GregorR: Your favorite being?
05:35:23 <GregorR> Based on descriptions I've heard from people who've tried that, I think I've got a one-sense-weak-makes-the-other-stronger thing going on :P
05:35:31 <GregorR> It's distinctively different! (And better)
05:35:44 <GregorR> Of course not, you're not a Mainer :P
05:35:51 <GregorR> Of course not, you're not a Mainer :P
05:36:01 <GregorR> It's the oldest continually produced soda in the US.
05:37:17 * pikhq is rather fond of Dr. Pepper & Mountain Dew...
05:37:35 <GregorR> Surely you've heard the English term "moxie", though?
05:37:40 <pikhq> And also a *good* ginger ale. (most of it isn't)
05:37:52 <GregorR> That term comes from the soda, not vice-versa.
05:42:07 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie , btw
05:42:54 <pikhq> And kinda want to try it.
05:43:11 <pikhq> If for no other reason then that a soda I haven't tried is just wrong. :p
05:43:13 <GregorR> Unless you know somebody who imports it locally (e.g. me :P ), it's too expensive to try.
05:43:33 <pikhq> Next time I'm in New England.
05:43:39 <pikhq> (with any luck, next summer)
05:43:43 <GregorR> It's difficult to find outside of Maine proper.
05:44:16 <pikhq> There's a lot of stuff that's hard to find in Boston. :p
05:45:18 <pikhq> Hey, sure enough. The Star Market in Cambridge has it.
05:46:00 <pikhq> As does the one in Newton, and that odd grocery store in Somerville...
05:46:17 <GregorR> There are a few places here and there you can find it. That's noreast enough that I'm not sure whether you'd be getting authentic Moxie (look for orange) or the just-as-good-if-not-better Real Soda brand Moxie.
05:46:47 <pikhq> Doubt I'll find it here in Missouri, though.
05:47:07 <GregorR> Actually easier to find in Oregon I'd bet :P
05:47:12 <pikhq> ... But there's a shop in Montana that sells it. WTF?
05:47:31 <pikhq> ... Ah. Missoula. The only town in that hellhole worth living in.
05:47:32 <GregorR> It probably all comes down to "somebody from Maine moved there and opened a store" ;)
05:47:38 <pikhq> Odd coincidence, that.
05:47:46 <pikhq> Missoula is a college town.
05:50:09 <pikhq> Jeeze; $24 for 24 cans.
05:50:19 <pikhq> Yeah, just a little pricy.
05:50:25 <GregorR> Eh, you can get a better deal than that (before shipping)
05:51:00 <pikhq> I think it's a bit cheaper to be fond of Dr. Pepper without HFCS.
05:51:16 <GregorR> Yeah, my Moxie lust is expensive :P
05:51:19 <pikhq> (at least that I could reasonably drive down and load my car up with)
05:51:43 <pikhq> Dr. Pepper without corn syrup is a bit difficult to find...
05:52:08 <pikhq> There's one distributor that makes it.
05:52:20 <GregorR> I can find it easily, but only one bottle at a time and overpriced :P
05:52:53 * pikhq got addicted for that short time it was available nation-wide...
05:53:31 <pikhq> Now, the only way to get it sanely is to go down to Texas and clean out a store. :p
05:57:05 * GregorR wonders how "go down to Texas" and "sanely" can be in the same sentence.
05:59:19 <pikhq> It's not far into Texas, and it's in the name of one of the few American products that doesn't use corn syrup.
05:59:30 <pikhq> Making it worth it.
05:59:40 <pikhq> And I use that smily a lot.
05:59:53 <GregorR> Hey now, there are lots of American products that don't use corn syrup.
05:59:59 <GregorR> Few of them are beverages, but still.
06:00:34 <pikhq> And few of them are food products for that matter.
06:00:59 <psygnisfive> i think some day OOPSLA should be held in Upsala
06:01:24 <pikhq> I think that we should cut back on the sugar tarriff and the corn subsidies.
06:01:31 <GregorR> For example, a 2009 Ford F-150 contains no corn syrup, as that would be too efficient of an alternative fuel.
06:02:37 <psygnisfive> but thats partially because corn takes more energy to turn into fuel than it produces
06:03:18 <pikhq> As a side benefit: corn syrup tastes awful.
06:04:03 <pikhq> Of course, this is America; screw taste, the almighty dollar is in charge.
06:04:33 <pikhq> Oh, and also subversion of the free market.
06:04:40 <pikhq> (as we are wont to do here)
06:08:05 <pikhq> Hmm, that's interesting... In mice, HFCS has been shown to increase the absorption of fat.
06:08:25 <pikhq> So, we're manipulating the free market to make Americans fat. *Great*.
06:08:45 <pikhq> Oh, it also seems to supress mice's tendency to stop themselves from overeating.
06:09:24 <psygnisfive> as it does not release the hormones that make you feel full
06:09:48 <psygnisfive> it also doesnt cause the release of insulin, which leads to elevated blood sugar levels, and a higher risk of diabetes
06:10:00 <pikhq> Also explains a lot.
06:10:13 <pikhq> We're really fucking ourselves over here.
06:10:36 <pikhq> And we're not even getting better-tasting food out of it!
06:11:09 <psygnisfive> if were gonna kill ourselves, we shold atleast enjoy it
06:18:51 <pikhq> Really annoying when you consider that we've got the ability to grow a *lot* of sugar beet...
06:19:04 <pikhq> And a decent bit of sugar cane as well.
06:20:43 <pikhq> Both of which would make for a really good ethanol crop if corn weren't so damned subsidised.
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06:45:22 <Sgeo> Maybe I should start eating HFCS foods
06:45:31 <Sgeo> Well, the diabetes bit doesn't sound good
06:49:42 * oerjan figures his infinite loop in slashes should work but it may be easier to use haskell to generate it
06:50:22 <ais523> oerjan: you're trying to write a nontrivial /// infinite loop
06:50:45 <ais523> I spent hours working on that problem once, my conclusions were that it was obviously possible, but would require someone who made fewer silly mistakes than me
06:51:30 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Slashes
07:14:21 <lifthrasiir> okay, i got dead code elimination pass correct... now esotope-bfc prints only PUTS("Hello world!") for hello.b.
07:16:04 <ais523> is that a wrapper macro?
07:16:14 <lifthrasiir> ais523: defined as #define PUTS(s) fwrite(s, 1, sizeof(s)-1, stdout)
07:16:31 <ais523> also, does it optimise 99bob into printing a constant string?
07:17:42 <lifthrasiir> propagation pass is (as i mentioned days ago) ad-hoc, so it misses some cases
07:19:13 <lifthrasiir> for example, it doesn't propagate Output[] node yet so there are lots of code looks like p[3] += 72; PUTC(p[3]);
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07:34:21 <Sgeo> 7 more spam messages from guess who
07:57:08 <ais523> wow, someone was reminicing about old-fashioned copy protection schemes on Slashdot, and apparently one of them involved rot13ing the binary
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07:57:24 <ais523> I have to admit, I never even thought of rot13ing binary data...
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08:08:59 <ais523> memfrob would make more sense
08:09:05 <ais523> its purpose is to hide strings in executables, right?
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08:13:29 <fizzie> There was a demo of a game they told me to poke at, to see how it was made; the data files of that were memfrob()'d (except not with the constant 42) .zip files.
08:14:28 <ais523> I remember recommending that to a friend about 6 or 7 years ago to use on his website
08:14:40 <ais523> because it was stronger than the nonencryption he was using, but I would still be able to crack i
08:14:54 <fizzie> Not quite sure what purpose it served; I guess it was there to discourage any "non-approved" modificating, or the extraction of graphical resources, but those both seem to be rather lamey reasons.
08:18:17 <fizzie> And there was that actual "binary rot-0x1b modulo 256 applied to .tar archives" ehird's router-box-or-whatever had for configuration dumps.
08:19:01 <ais523> the impression that I got from the Slashdot comment was that the binary had actually changed all the opcodes and data that happened to correspond to letters of the alphabet round 13 alphabetical places
08:19:14 <ais523> and left everything else untouched
08:19:16 <fizzie> Yes, that's pretty senseless.
08:19:22 <ais523> quite a few common x86 instructions correspond to capital letters, though
08:19:44 <ais523> in realmode, at least, the lowercase letters all seem to be invalid opcodes
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08:26:11 <ais523> I'm having a completely crazy sleep pattern atm
08:26:22 <ais523> so I took advantage of the 24-hour opening of the University atm to come in at 6am
08:26:46 -!- daffa has changed nick to evincar.
08:28:16 <ais523> well, it's a case of "would I rather be lying in bed doing nothing wondering if 6am is too late to try to go to sleep, or come online and do nothing?"
08:29:36 <evincar> It's only 3:30 where I am. Been programming, and debating going for a run.
08:29:38 <ais523> esoteric-wise, the most interesting things I've done recently are write a BF Joust interp, and a fast Underload interp in a sane language
08:30:12 <ais523> because it's ridiculous that nearly all the Underload interps were in esolangs
08:31:00 <evincar> I dunno, I've been working on a legit language lately, so I figured it was time to take a break and see what the other half is doing.
08:31:50 <evincar> I had a great idea for a rather esoteric language, but unfortunately it seems too useful to count as an esolang in the truest sense of the term.
08:31:56 <evincar> More like domain-specific.
08:32:08 <ais523> I don't mind esolangs being useful
08:32:19 <ais523> in fact, I've been aiming towards that sort of thing quite a lot recently
08:32:43 <ais523> Underlambda is (will be) designed to be useful, Thutu turned out to be useful by mistake, and I've been progressively making INTERCAL more useful and hoping nobody notices
08:33:01 <evincar> Well, I guess it amounts to preference.
08:34:02 <evincar> My first esolang was rather useful, come to think of it, for batch scripting and lightweight graphics applications...
08:34:13 <evincar> ...made in good ol' QuickBASIC 4.5, of course.
08:35:49 <ais523> I was stuck with QBasic ages ago
08:36:44 <evincar> It was a certain flavour of esoteria in its own right.
08:37:37 <evincar> Consider the things that the QB community did with that language in the early 00's that should never have been done with it.
08:37:51 <ais523> you can say that about any language, more or less
08:38:00 <ais523> I know when I was younger I implemented pointers in QBasic
08:38:05 <ais523> actual memory pointers
08:38:09 <ais523> that's esoteric in its own way
08:38:31 <evincar> It feels so good to get a linked list working in QB.
08:38:41 <evincar> And at the same time vile and disgusting.
08:39:01 <ais523> I couldn't figure out how to extract the value of a number, so in the end I blitted into a temporary variable and read the value from there
08:39:12 <ais523> I was so programming-naive then I didn't even know about floating point
08:39:19 <ais523> so no wonder I couldn't figure out the byte order
08:39:40 <evincar> ...but programming knowledge builds on itself.
08:39:59 <evincar> I've come a long way in the...almost ten years it's been.
08:40:11 <evincar> Since I started getting interested, that is.
08:40:13 <ais523> a bit more than that for me
08:40:18 <ais523> I started programming when I was 6, I'm 22 now
08:40:30 <ais523> Pascal and BBC Basic were my first languages
08:40:40 <ais523> and, as you can probably guess, 6502 asm was my first asm
08:41:18 <fizzie> We recently HTMLized the QB manual.
08:41:24 <fizzie> Or QBasic manual, anyway.
08:41:29 <evincar> I was a QB/Pascal child, myself, but I got into C rather early on, and then C++ has pretty much stuck with me ever since, despite Perl, Python, and what have you.
08:41:35 <ais523> I know there was a discussion about it here a while ago
08:41:38 <fizzie> The dos .HLP decompiler didn't work on the QuickBasic one.
08:41:42 <ais523> I even managed to get what I think is a legal copy
08:41:47 <ais523> at least, it came from the Microsoft website
08:41:59 <ais523> (also, I have a spare Win98 license around, so I'll count it against that)
08:42:06 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/qbc.html
08:42:25 <fizzie> That's the one with CSS rules to make the colors correct.
08:43:25 <fizzie> It's the QBasic one; like I said, real qb45 manual didn't get through the "helphelp" tool.
08:46:50 <fizzie> It did get a couple of pages correct, but the rest of the output was just "^B^D^B^E^B^F^B^K^B^L^B^T^B^T\p^B\uP,P,P,P,<B3>i<A2>allimmedia\p" and so on. Must be an incompatible version.
08:48:08 * ais523 laments the death of winhelp
08:48:23 <ais523> even winhlp32 is pretty much dead nowadays
08:48:35 <ais523> and you can't get hold of compilers for winhelp nowadays, I don't think
08:48:51 <ais523> that's actually a good point, I'll have to see if I have one lying around on a hard disk somewhere
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08:49:01 <ais523> the source code was a really weird format
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08:49:14 <ais523> and you put metadata in footnotes, or as hidden text
08:49:35 <ais523> a link, for instance, was double-underlined-text, followed by the link target as hidden text
08:49:48 <ais523> I think it was double-underlined, anyway, I'm not sure, it was so long ago!
08:51:44 * ais523 opens up an old winhelp source file in OpenOffice to look
08:53:07 <ais523> oh, and it had a scripting language too
08:53:25 <ais523> which had a slightly weird syntax, it was mostly lots of nested camelcase functions
08:53:42 <ais523> it looks functional looking at the source, but I suspect it may be imperative written with a functional synax
08:53:51 <ais523> and you put the commands in footnotes
08:54:09 <ais523> I don't think it's TC, but only because you can't have a loop not containing user input, and there's no infinite storage
08:55:34 <evincar> There's no way to hack around the former?
08:55:46 <ais523> no, it basically has no control structures but if
08:56:48 <evincar> Hey, you mind if I rattle off my recent idea and get some feedback?
08:57:49 <ais523> <content of a footnote called !> IfThen(Not(IsMark("mpk2pa")), "JI(`m2loadgm.hlp', `lerror')")
08:58:18 * ais523 boggles at programming languages that use ` for open quote and ' for close quote
08:58:22 <fizzie> The "whc" program reads WinHelp project files (*.HPJ) and Rich-Text Format
08:58:22 <fizzie> file (*.RTF) and converts them into a WinHelp file with a .HLP extension.
08:58:30 <fizzie> That's included still in the OpenWatcom package.
08:58:35 <ais523> ah, that sounds about right
08:58:41 <ais523> I still have a few HPJs lying around somewhere
08:59:07 <ais523> they basically correspond to Makefiles
08:59:07 <fizzie> Who to Yell at if "whc" Explodes in your Face
08:59:07 <fizzie> ---------------------------------------------
08:59:10 <fizzie> If I'm not at Watcom, try:
08:59:10 <fizzie> email: pmilley@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
08:59:17 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure he's still interested in whc bugs.
08:59:24 <ais523> can it use memory outside the bottom 640K?
08:59:27 <ais523> if so, it's better than the one I have
08:59:33 <ais523> it keeps crashing on large images
08:59:50 <fizzie> It should build on Linux, so I would hope so.
08:59:53 <ais523> ooh, wait, I think you can do an infinite loop
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09:00:18 <ais523> I've just reseen the source of one of my most complex attempts to write a WinHelp program
09:00:27 <ais523> it has a lot of JI commands forming a chain
09:00:40 <ais523> in order to do more complicated coding than would fit into the footnotes of one page
09:00:49 <ais523> I expect you could fit the JIs into a load
09:01:00 <ais523> which would be much the same as an HTML page refreshing itself in the middle of loading to loop
09:01:18 <ais523> which is stupid, but this is #esoteric we're talking about and it's a lot saner than some control structures I've seen
09:01:39 <evincar> Reminds me of the abuses of the C preprocessor that you see in the IOCCC.
09:01:57 <ais523> even more amusingly, JI requires you to specify the literal filename of the target of the jump
09:02:06 <fizzie> That Watcom's WHC is a bit limited, though: supports only .bmp and .shg images, not .mrb/.dib/.wmf; no redefining of window styles, whatever that means; no support of the built-in table commands, and "no disk caching, and as a result is a RAM hog, especially with the 2MB help files people compile here at Watcom!"
09:02:16 <fizzie> I guess that last point isn't such a great thing any longer.
09:02:20 <ais523> don't worry, I'm perfectly capable of having two conversations at once, with the same people on occasion
09:02:48 <ais523> err, .dib = .bmp with a different extension, so they could support that one pretty easily
09:03:02 <ais523> and how nostalgic to see .shg there
09:03:18 <fizzie> "Support for Windows bitmaps and Windows SHG files is available, but other image formats supported by Microsoft's compiler (MRB, DIB, and WMF) are not supported."
09:03:29 <ais523> .shg is basically a .bmp, but with WinHelp commands embedded on rectangular and elliptical areas
09:03:32 <fizzie> I did think .bmp files were device-independent-bitmaps at heart.
09:03:55 <evincar> So my original concept was an "emotional" programming language. Roughing that out, I decided to design an arbitrary system for creating "emotional automata". Basically I mashed together the idea of the cellular automaton with that of a neural network, added some nondeterminism, and behold.
09:04:12 <ais523> well, this is sounding pretty esoteric
09:04:29 <ais523> although "temperamental" might be a better description, by the sound of it
09:04:40 <evincar> Well, I wanted something for simulation purposes.
09:05:05 <evincar> "Given these behaviours and arbitrary simulated inputs, how does this agent operate?"
09:05:31 <ais523> have you seen evfunge?
09:05:42 <ais523> unfortunately, neither have I
09:05:53 <ais523> it's been discussed here, but all we know of is a webpage describing it
09:05:58 <evincar> A program consists of a "space", which can be Cartesian, graph-based, or fully-connected; "agents", which are effectively just neurons in the network; and "traits", which provide the capabilities of the agent.
09:06:21 <evincar> A funge for genetic programming, I'd assume?
09:06:35 <ais523> apparently it worked rather well, but I haven't seen the source
09:06:45 <ais523> either of evfunge itself, or of the programs it generated
09:07:26 <ais523> aargh, I just found wininiss
09:07:36 <ais523> possibly one of my most ridiculous utility functions ever
09:08:00 <ais523> it was a rather silly FFI, that worked from programs I didn't write to programs I did
09:08:18 <ais523> it was an executable that took data from its command-line arguments and recorded them in the main Windows configuration file, in a custom setting
09:08:23 <ais523> from where the program I wrote could read them
09:08:34 <ais523> at the time, I was rather worried it might wear out the hard disk
09:08:43 <ais523> which was probably not what I should have been worried about
09:09:38 <ais523> I should look through my "programs written in things not meant to be programmed" directory more often
09:09:50 <ais523> it's a rather related field to esoprogramming, although not technically the same
09:09:56 <ais523> oandx.bmp is a classic
09:10:16 <evincar> Ah, right...so..."traits" express "capabilities", which are responses to traits of other agents; "responses", which are responses to sensory input (i.e., events); and "impulses", which are nondeterministic. So you've got a full range.
09:10:40 <ais523> a bitmap that plays noughts and crosses
09:10:58 <evincar> How'd you pull that one off?
09:11:11 <ais523> I also have the same program as .bat, .dot, .hlp, and .ppt
09:11:19 <ais523> and by relying on the way floodfill works
09:11:22 <ais523> and a lot of visual trickery
09:11:34 <ais523> it's mostly about looking cleverer than it is
09:14:07 <evincar> Every agent runs in its own thread, and is active and listening to all of its inputs unless otherwise stated. When no agent is active and it can be determined that no agent will become active again (e.g., via an impulse), the program ends.
09:15:39 <evincar> Writing a program consists of defining a space, declaring agents, and linking up their inputs and outputs into the initial state, if they're in a non-Cartesian space.
09:17:01 <evincar> I'm feeling a syntax like LISP or Unlambda.
09:18:28 <evincar> Um...thoughts? Questions? I've rambled an outline, at least.
09:18:33 <ais523> Unlambda's LISP with half the brackets
09:18:48 <ais523> and it seems a relatively standard general idea
09:19:54 <evincar> I think targeting simulation applications is going to make it worth it.
09:20:50 <evincar> "There. I've made my robot. Now give it some Mars-like terrain and weather, and keep blowing up the little guy until he learns from his mistakes. Then give me an analysis."
09:20:59 <psygnisfive> it sounds like youve just invented normal agents.
09:23:48 <evincar> So you're saying it's not necessary? Been done this way before?
09:24:00 <psygnisfive> it just sounds like youve reinvented agent based modelling.
09:25:29 <evincar> Well...yes. That's exactly what I've done. I'm just wondering if it's a good idea to make a programming language out of the method.
09:26:56 <psygnisfive> there already is one. its called agent based modelling. :P
09:27:07 <psygnisfive> or, after a fashion, object oriented programming.
09:30:00 <evincar> I was thinking esoteric language, but whatever. And over OO it's more of an architecture or design pattern than straight up part of the paradigm.
09:31:24 <evincar> I can write a program in an object-oriented language that uses the concept of agent-based modelling, but there's nothing about object-oriented programming that is specifically geared toward that technique.
09:32:25 <psygnisfive> its just that when we code things in the OO paradigm, we're doing it not for modelling so much as to achieve a particular goal
09:32:43 <psygnisfive> and so the emergent behavior of modelling doesnt really arise.
09:32:49 <ais523> OO as in true Smalltalk OO, or OO as in what people normally mean by OO?
09:33:25 <psygnisfive> C++ is rarely programmed in an OO fashion.
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09:33:46 <ais523> and C++'s OO is like machine code
09:33:56 <evincar> It tends to be more like a...hierarchical C.
09:34:02 <ais523> it's so ridiculously do-everything-by-hand that you can hardly get a proper OO system running
09:37:42 <evincar> I would say that OO is "more generic", that is, it applies to a wider problem domain than, and is a superset of, agent-based modelling, so I would tend to view it as a conceptual or architectural decision rather than a programming paradigm outright.
09:38:41 <evincar> I mean, I can write a genetic algorithm or agent simulation in C, or assembly, that takes advantage of far different techniques than an object-oriented language while accomplishing the same goal.
09:38:54 <psygnisfive> an agent-based model seems like merely a particular kind of OO program geared towards discovering emergent phenomena
09:39:15 <psygnisfive> sure, but you can write ANY program in ANY TC language
09:39:32 <evincar> Yes, but it's not necessarily OO.
09:39:39 <evincar> We're chasing ourselves around in circles.
09:39:40 <psygnisfive> you can write time-ordered code in haskell
09:40:23 <psygnisfive> i just dont see how what youve suggested is novel. :P
09:40:24 <evincar> Yes...and this is in favour of what I've been saying.
09:40:51 <evincar> I mean the funky esoteric programming language geared toward that concept.
09:41:03 <evincar> That's where I could be innovating.
09:41:25 <psygnisfive> well what does that language look like and why is it novel in looking like that
09:41:37 <evincar> That's what I'm working on.
09:42:08 <evincar> We seriously just had a million-line discussion for that.
09:43:11 <psygnisfive> http://blog.milkboys.org/topics/photo/milk-monday/
09:44:07 <evincar> The guy without the shirt isn't bad-looking.
09:44:29 <evincar> The girl would be better-looking without the...eh...well...milk.
09:44:51 <evincar> A suitably effeminate boi, then.
09:45:08 <psygnisfive> http://www.deedeecus.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/tokio-hotel-mtv.jpg
09:45:31 <psygnisfive> http://www.cartoondollemporium.com/forum/pics/cdeblog/tokio%20hotel.jpg
09:45:36 <evincar> I am both frightened and intrigued.
09:46:28 <evincar> You're telling me a boy who takes care of himself like that is not fond of a more familiar species?
09:46:42 <psygnisfive> well given that males and females are of the same species!
09:47:17 <evincar> Like my marbles, at this hour.
09:47:23 <psygnisfive> i deny your implicatures and substitute my own!
09:47:45 <evincar> He likes the male variety!
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09:48:17 <evincar> Heh...well, to be perfectly honest, I think it's rather silly to be guessing at someone's sexual preferences based on appearances alone.
09:48:56 <psygnisfive> given that hes german, and a popstar, and german, looking gay is expected
09:49:13 <M0ny> Heh...well, to be perfectly honest, I think it's rather silly to be guessing at someone's sexual preferences.
09:49:26 <evincar> ...European power pop does that to a person.
09:49:50 <evincar> Look at ex-Ozone Dan Balan, RadU, and Arsenium.
09:50:29 <evincar> And RadU, the young-looking, effeminate, "cute one" is the oldest, married, and maybe with a kid, I forget.
09:50:56 <evincar> This is a hell of a tangent.
09:53:49 <psygnisfive> also, he could just be a lesbian in a boys body.
09:53:52 <evincar> Crap. I just realised that I'm built just like him.
09:55:22 <evincar> So, how about that...anything else?
09:55:45 <evincar> Is there a Portal-based esolang yet?
09:56:03 <evincar> I have a feeling something awesome could be done with that.
09:56:27 <psygnisfive> ehhh see the problem with that is that if you have teleports, you get no interesting constraints
09:56:47 <evincar> And of course the nondeterminism that arises from the question of whether the cake is or is not a lie.
09:57:15 <psygnisfive> well, it depends on how you use teleports, i guess
09:57:15 <ais523> INTERCAL control flow feels a bit portally
09:57:20 <ais523> although it isn't exactly the same
09:57:41 <evincar> And program flow is only one object that can go through a portal, remember.
09:57:55 <evincar> Oh, I wasn't thinking that.
09:58:06 <psygnisfive> in that befunge forces you to work in 2 dimensions
09:58:33 <psygnisfive> once you go into three dimensions, theres no such restriction
09:58:44 <psygnisfive> and teleporting essentially does the same thing
09:58:49 <evincar> I don't know that a Portal language could be a fungeoid, but it seems like a logical conclusion.
09:59:07 <psygnisfive> well, portals only matter when you have something that moves about a space
09:59:32 <Slereah> Portal language was my idea!
09:59:54 <evincar> Hey, I haven't been here in *ages*.
10:00:11 <psygnisfive> slereah, what do you do at slereah.place_of_employment?
10:00:18 <Slereah> For the record, I also had the idea of a Lemmings language, so HANDS OFF OF THAT
10:00:30 <Slereah> psygnisfive : I program stuff and shit
10:01:17 <Slereah> Right know I'm trying to model a parton jet
10:02:39 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_(particle_physics)
10:03:52 <Slereah> Once free, it decays rapidly
10:03:58 <Slereah> Into a shitload of particles
10:04:05 <Slereah> All going in the same general direction
10:04:57 <Slereah> Worst part about work is that they're rationning Mathematica
10:05:04 <Slereah> You only get some time per day
10:13:23 <evincar> Well, I'm no longer productive.
10:13:30 <evincar> Time to turn in for a few hours.
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10:46:13 <ais523> ehird (when you're here): more Perl6 stealing ideas from INTERCAL: it uses just-in-case compilation for procedures that aren't declared yet
10:46:33 <ais523> as in, compiles as if they're declared later, then errors out if it doesn't find the declaration
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11:23:22 <ais523> ok, Perl6 has reverse-subtract as an operator
11:23:26 <ais523> along with reverse everything else
11:24:46 <ais523> and there you have the ever-useful reverse-addition operator
11:28:39 <psygnisfive> its subtraction with the arguments reversed
11:28:45 <lifthrasiir> ais523: why not a meta-operator for exchanging operands?
11:28:54 <ais523> that's exactly how it's implemetned
11:29:07 <ais523> and why things like reverse-addition exist
11:31:05 <ais523> there we have it, a less-than with no arguments
11:31:18 <ais523> to be precise, a reducing less-than
11:31:41 <psygnisfive> youre not running a bot on your computer :(
11:32:08 <ais523> apparently, both less than and greater than are true
11:32:13 <ais523> if applied to nothing at all
11:32:23 <ais523> just like [+]() is 0 and [*]() is 1
11:32:28 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to augur[sleep].
11:33:13 <augur[sleep]> because 0 and 1 are the identity values for those operators
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11:33:26 <lifthrasiir> that's something like foldl or foldr in many languages, but took a form of n-ary operator
11:33:28 <ais523> it's meant to be the identity value you get if you apply them to no operands
11:33:38 <ais523> and I'd say "true" is the identity value of less-than
11:33:43 <ais523> because 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 is true
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11:34:02 <ais523> lifthrasiir: yep, it's a folded-operator syntax
11:34:15 <augur[sleep]> but the chained < is not an accurate representation of < mathematically
11:34:25 <ais523> as in, chaining a less-than is an implicit "and" in pretty much all usage
11:34:30 <ais523> and the identity for and is truth
11:35:05 <augur[sleep]> but < cannot by its very nature have an identity
11:35:36 <augur[sleep]> since its not an operation from the domain back to the domain
11:37:35 <ais523> the identity's on the return value, there
11:37:50 <ais523> as in, a < b < c is parsed by Perl6 as (a < b) && (b < c)
11:37:56 <ais523> so it uses the identity for &&
11:38:13 <augur[sleep]> but i still cant reeeaaally comprehend what an identity for < would be
11:38:29 <augur[sleep]> because identities are not conceptualized as relating to chaining at all.
11:39:30 * AnMaster notes someone highlighted him but it is out of scrollback
11:39:44 <AnMaster> well if it was anything important I'm sure that person will re-highlight
11:39:45 <ais523> I highlighted you the day before yesterday, IIRC
11:39:49 <ais523> but I think you were online then
11:39:58 <ais523> and I was talking about you, not to you, then
11:39:59 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, this happened since yesterday evening
11:40:09 <ais523> in the context of people who ehird tended to disagree with
11:41:32 <ais523> > say((1,3,5)X+(2,4,6));
11:42:11 <ais523> strangely, that took it a while to calculate
11:42:12 <AnMaster> when X runs for a long time (several weeks) it's memory usage sometimes start to rapidly grow. /proc/pid/maps indicate it is the heap that grows. However this doesn't always happen.
11:42:19 <ais523> I wonder how much is coing on behind the scenes there
11:42:24 <AnMaster> This time it happened after just 5 days
11:42:25 <ais523> AnMaster: memory leak only in certain circumstances, I wonder?
11:42:37 <ais523> it could be that they're very rare circumstances
11:42:42 <ais523> but once they happen, they continue happening
11:42:50 <ais523> that would give apparently random lengths of time before it happened
11:42:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it happens about 2/3 of the times X runs for a few weeks without restart.
11:43:00 <ais523> also, I tend to restart X every few hours
11:43:05 <AnMaster> usually it doesn't happen after just a few days
11:43:11 <ais523> due to not staying on one internet connection for all thatl ong
11:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, why would you need to restart X when changing internet connection??
11:44:12 <ais523> because I turn the computer off
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11:58:17 <ais523> Perl6 has one of the silliest lambda syntaxes ever:
11:58:28 <ais523> -> $var { #(code here...) }
11:58:37 <ais523> the #() is an inline comment, btw
12:04:46 <ais523> in fact, you can use any of the bracket chars in Unicode
12:05:01 <lifthrasiir> and if i remembered correctly, there are anonymous arguments $^a, $^b etc.
12:05:26 <ais523> actually, $^anything works to implicitly give arguments to the closure you're in
12:05:38 <ais523> and all blocks are treated as 0-arg lambdas
12:05:44 <ais523> unless they have more than 0 arguments
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12:16:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> the #() is an inline comment, btw
12:16:47 <ais523> why are inline comments in Perl so surprising?
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12:16:59 <AnMaster> what if you write at the start of a line:
12:17:23 <ais523> # ( blah blah would be a one-line comment
12:17:31 <ais523> and space #( blah blah
12:17:33 <AnMaster> ais523, only if it ends with a matching space right?
12:17:35 <ais523> would be the start of an inline comment
12:17:40 <ais523> which can last multiple lines
12:17:46 <ais523> and space isn't a sort of paren
12:18:12 <AnMaster> but it would match s<any char here>blah<same any char>blah<again same any char>
12:19:01 <ais523> err, but s doesn't allow any char nowadays
12:19:05 <ais523> in fact, it never used to
12:19:10 <ais523> it didn't allow letters, for instance
12:19:26 <ais523> in perl6 it doesn't allow : or # either
12:19:38 <ais523> because it's legal to mix quote operators
12:22:44 <AnMaster> $ sed $'s\0foo\0bar\0' <<< foo
12:22:45 <AnMaster> sed: -e expression #1, char 1: unterminated `s' command
12:23:13 <ais523> you can use $'' to interpolate backslash-0?
12:23:29 <AnMaster> actually I'm not sure bash will handle it correctly
12:24:07 <AnMaster> sed: file /tmp/blah line 1: unterminated `s' command
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12:24:21 <AnMaster> and there I'm sure the null bytes are there
12:24:35 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes $'' interprets like echo -e
12:25:00 <ais523> and, obviously, I seriously doubt newline works as a separator
12:25:03 <ais523> I'm less sure about tab
12:25:23 <AnMaster> $ sed $'s\tfoo\tbar\t' <<< foo
12:28:01 <ais523> I wonder how backslash reacts to escape codes in the s\\\ itself
12:28:18 <AnMaster> try it yourself, I'm a bit preocupied
12:44:41 <AnMaster> ais523, seems \ doesn't work then
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12:55:33 <asiekierka> I implemented Deadfish in C64 basic O_O
12:55:40 <asiekierka> and I think I didn't see this channel more crowded
12:56:20 <fungot> asiekierka: which was the first thing that popped into my brain
12:56:33 <fungot> asiekierka: what will scheme42 be exactly? some kind of priorities between your rules. ha ha ha you changed some words.
12:57:20 <ais523> also, it's often more crowded than this, you must be in a weird timezone
12:57:53 <asiekierka> but i'm not in the US, which has GMT-6 or whatever :P
12:58:14 <asiekierka> ais523: Did you check out DEADFISH 64?
12:58:23 <ais523> it looks like portable BASIC to me
12:58:33 <ais523> presumably it would work on other basic interps too, though
12:58:56 <ais523> that's like saying that a particular standard strict-C89 program is x86 C
12:59:59 <asiekierka> if you click the external link to the webpage of Deadfish 64 (on the bottom of the Deadfish page) you can see what features does it have
13:00:07 <asiekierka> The one in the implementations only implements basic deadfish
13:05:07 * ais523 thinks it's an interesting comment on programmer psychology that deadfish has such appeal
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14:08:33 <oklopol> so i saw evilsort and decided to have some fun http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p114666125.txt
14:09:01 <oklopol> (not evilsort, my own verysort thingie, in case you don't read python or don't, for some reason, know evilsort)
14:09:57 <oklopol> it's competitive sorting, i just started writing code and that happened
14:10:27 <oklopol> i mean for a pessimal algo, which of course is a bad thing.
14:10:44 <oklopol> i mean it can easily sort lists of seven elements
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14:11:28 <oklopol> OH MY GOD I'M A GENIUS, wait a mo i know just what to do to fix that...
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14:25:22 <ais523_> wow, that's quite a sorting algorithm
14:25:55 <WangZeDong> It is O(0), but it will cost you YOUR SOUL
14:26:04 <ais523_> I was refering to verysort
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14:30:51 <oklofok> but i'm not sure it works, because i can only test up to lists of length 3.
14:31:21 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p214351221.txt <<< sorry, even more okloisms here
14:31:58 <oklofok> but basically what it does is pick a list at random
14:32:03 <oklofok> and order the rest randomly
14:32:13 <oklofok> and then take an element from each list
14:32:37 <oklofok> and if the chosen list has that element, and the one to the right of it in the correct order, and all the others don't, then it gets a point.
14:33:01 <oklofok> best has the list with the best score, it's returned if it's sorted
14:33:22 <oklofok> what i wanted to add to evilsort was nondeterminism and not using polynomial space
14:34:42 <oklofok> i guess i also added much more pessimality, but i guess this one looks somewhat pessimal already, that is, kinda hard to justify making sure it beats everyone else before giving it a point, which is a bad thing.
14:35:18 <oklofok> but i guess you could call it a tournament to the death, but with the dead guys getting another chance as opponents.
14:37:55 <oklofok> btw it's actually somewhat nontrivial that there even always is a terminating shuffling, if the elements aren't all equal
14:37:57 <AnMaster> oklofok, sorting by genetic algorithm?
14:38:05 <oklofok> AnMaster: you could call it that
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14:38:51 <oklofok> but genetic algos don't usually have explicit "fights"
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14:39:20 <oklofok> well, incrediblysort has more like a deathmatch than a fight, as i guess i explained already
14:40:35 <oklofok> btw not only doesn't a list of four elements get sorted in a reasonable time, it's not very likely that anyone will even get any points in a quadrillion years :D
14:41:00 <oklofok> the probability of getting a point is 1/2^(n!)
14:41:50 <oklofok> assuming elements not equal, if they can be equal, it's probably much easier
14:42:48 <oklofok> yep, it runs in an instant :<<<<<<
14:43:11 <oklofok> i should add like an epsilon, "to make it stable" :P
14:43:11 <oklofok> well, you probably have no idea what i'm talking about
14:43:24 <oklofok> pizza and family guy, as halfway mentioned ->
14:44:12 <oklofok> that is, epsilon is a bad term, more like.......... umm..... random skew
14:44:44 <oklofok> except not random or it wouldn't be stable
14:44:44 <oklofok> it's just i can't find another justification for it
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15:08:43 <nooga> anyone wrote something using GTK2?
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16:07:35 <GregorR> nooga: In the distant past.
16:12:08 <ehird> 10:31 ais523: there we have it, a less-than with no arguments
16:12:08 <ehird> 10:31 ais523: to be precise, a reducing less-than
16:12:32 <ehird> 05:04 pikhq: Oh, and also subversion of the free market.
16:12:34 <ehird> 05:04 pikhq: (as we are wont to do here)
16:12:36 <ehird> the free market sucks
16:12:48 <ehird> And now, back to assembling this hypothetical server for the VPSness.
16:13:59 <ehird> (in case anyone wasn't here yesterday: I've semi-come up with a semi-novel way to do VPSes fast and easily and now I'm toying with the idea of getting a dedi to sell them.)
16:15:09 <ehird> GregorR: what does moxie taste of
16:15:31 <GregorR> ehird: It's not comparable to any other soda, really.
16:15:42 <ehird> GregorR: compare it to something that isn't a soda then
16:16:01 <ehird> "For those without access to Moxie, the flavor can be approximated (and adjusted to taste) by adding Angostura bitters to root beer, or by mixing Campari with Coca-Cola, or by mixing a shot of Jägermeister in a glass of Coca-cola (6-8 oz.)."
16:16:06 <ehird> Uh. But of course!
16:16:28 <GregorR> Yeah, Idonno, can't help ya :P
16:16:40 <ehird> GregorR: Just give me some :-P
16:17:24 <GregorR> ehird: If you were in W. Lafayette, and I had some right now, I might :P
16:20:47 <ehird> GregorR: This online store is offering me six cans for $7.99 plus a probably inordinately huge amount of shipping to the UK, and I'm trying to decide whether my curiosity extends that far.
16:21:16 <GregorR> That would probably be some ultra-expensive shipping.
16:21:32 <GregorR> It's really good, I'd recommend that everyone try it, but it's not necessarily worth the price.
16:21:35 <ehird> "To obtain an accurate shipping amount, enter shipping postal code (US only) "
16:21:37 <ehird> GregorR: $infinity
16:21:52 <ehird> Unless that means they just can't estimate it for non-US
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16:25:04 <GregorR> ais523: Whar's the bf joust bundle for EgoBot? :P
16:25:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> 05:04 pikhq: Oh, and also subversion of the free market. <-- is the repo public?
16:25:22 <ehird> That was so unfunny it took me seconds to get it.
16:25:40 <GregorR> svn co https://svn.free-market.co.su/trunk
16:25:55 <ehird> AnMaster: soviet union
16:25:55 <ais523> GregorR: well, put it this way
16:26:00 <ehird> But they don't exactly have a free market!
16:26:02 <ais523> I last woke up at 5pm yesterday
16:26:12 <ais523> and went to University at 6am today because I couldn't sleep
16:26:21 <ehird> ais523: try Uberman's. It can't be as fucked up as your current schedule
16:26:22 <ais523> now I'm back closer to home, so I've been up for almost 24 hours
16:26:27 <ais523> and didn't sleep properly before then
16:26:29 <ehird> ( http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720 )
16:26:33 <GregorR> ais523: And you used all that extra time to write a bf joust interp for EgoBot, right? ;)
16:26:49 <ais523> no, I used most of it wondering why time had apparently broken down into discrete steps
16:26:55 <ais523> I suspect I'm so tired I'm hallucinating
16:27:07 <ais523> either that, or I'm just seeing the fundamental cellular automaton behind the universe
16:27:18 <ehird> ais523: just make sure things don't turn into 2D
16:27:19 <AnMaster> ais523, in what way did you notice it
16:27:23 <ehird> or you might start moving diagonally
16:27:30 <ais523> AnMaster: as in, it was like the universe's frame-rate was rather low for some reason
16:27:31 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't describe that kind of stuff...
16:27:47 <ais523> you know, too low to give a decent illusion of reality
16:28:00 <AnMaster> ais523, sure you weren't dreaming?
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16:28:08 <ais523> and no, I've spent most of the time reading the Perl6 docs, I think they make more sense when sleep-deprived
16:28:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I was technically awake, but probably not awake enough to do anything in practice
16:28:21 <AnMaster> ais523, aha, That is the cause clearly.
16:28:42 <ais523> GregorR: I have a BF Joust interp that pits two programs against each other, and returns the result to stdout and to exit status
16:28:48 <ais523> what else would it need?
16:29:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC was slightly amusing today.
16:29:04 <ais523> I was rather hoping the existing FYB scripts would fit to BF Joust well
16:29:07 <ehird> ais523: could you think inbetween the discrete steps? if not, that's some feat to notice it :P
16:29:12 <GregorR> ais523: Just an adaptation of FYB's report.c
16:29:35 <ais523> link to EgoBot source?
16:29:41 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
16:30:36 <ais523> I may as well have all three of the leading DVCSes, plus the one I actually use
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16:31:05 <GregorR> (The scmds/fyb script is sort of stupid because it was written before fyb exited with a useful status code, so I had to parse the human-readable output :P )
16:31:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: slight *groan*
16:31:56 <GregorR> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/README
16:32:53 <ais523> argh, Ubuntu, stop telling me at is broken, it's been broken for two versions now and I've reported the bug and there are lots of helpful comments indicating what's causing it and it should be a one-line fix and you still haven't fixed it
16:33:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, the last sqrt(-garfield) (from yesterday iirc?) was rather *groan* too IMO
16:33:58 <ehird> ais523: why are you using ubuntu again? :P
16:34:17 <ais523> it's the OS that the computer came with
16:34:55 <ehird> "This comic has been produced by applying the identity function simultaneously to every pixel of the comic of 2002-09-05. "
16:35:02 <ehird> ais523: is installing an OS hard?
16:35:23 <ais523> yes if you don't have enough backup media you trust to hand to back up all your files first
16:35:34 <ais523> besides, in theory this thing might still be in warranty
16:35:44 <ehird> ais523: oh, you don't have a /home partition?
16:35:54 <ehird> also, installing an OS breaks the warranty?
16:35:56 <ehird> what kind of shitty warranty is that
16:36:14 <ais523> it's standard excuse for more or less every major PC manufacturer ever
16:36:14 <oerjan> and mezzacotta today advocates killing children, i see
16:36:38 <ais523> actually, I have no idea what would happen if you tried wiping Mac OS X on a Mac, installing Windows/Linux as the only OS, and then asking them to fix a hardware problem
16:36:39 <ehird> ais523: so you buy a computer whose warranty involves not using it
16:36:42 <ehird> it's just like DRM!
16:36:53 <ais523> well, I don't plan to use the warranty
16:37:02 <ais523> half the hardware's malfunctioning prettily as it is
16:37:04 <ehird> also, I think as long as you didn't imply it was anything to do with windows they'd help
16:37:06 <ais523> the touchpad hasn't worked for years
16:37:07 <ehird> Boot Camp is supported
16:37:10 <ehird> although I'm not sure removing OS X is
16:37:23 <ehird> you can boot into an OS X install CD
16:37:27 <ehird> and remove your OS X partition
16:37:33 <ehird> so for a tenuous definition of supported it is
16:37:45 <ehird> boot camp doesn't actually do anything but partition, heh
16:38:10 <ehird> really, "boot camp" is just the EFI's bios emulation
16:40:42 <GregorR> ais523, ehird: They'd "fix" it, but when it came back it'd only have OS X installed :P
16:41:01 <ehird> GregorR: I find that unlikely.
16:41:22 <ehird> At least, if you had Windows AND OS X they'd stay since that's officially supported, and I don't recall seeing removing OS X be classed as unsupported
16:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, Is putting the computer in lava explicitly classed as unsupported?
16:42:30 <ehird> that's totally irrelevant
16:43:01 <ehird> I imagine that destroying the computer is classed as unsupported, though.
16:43:12 <AnMaster> right, that covers a lot of different cases.
16:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Lawyers wrote it. They have thought of everything ;-)
16:44:41 <kerlo> http://xkcd.com/373/
16:44:57 <ehird> kerlo: how's that relevant to anything
16:45:01 <kerlo> That comic is just as true if you replace "Claims of Supernatural Powers" with "Theories of Physics".
16:45:30 <ehird> kerlo: it's called casual conversation, s/confirmed/seems to work in practice for blah blah balh/
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16:47:25 * AnMaster wonders how hard it would be to make a web browser using XeTeX as rendering backend.
16:47:45 <ehird> Hard. Also impractical.
16:47:56 <ehird> Maybe WebKit or Gecko let you pug in a backend. That'd be hard though so I doubt it.
16:48:02 <GregorR> We're all about practicality here in #esoteric
16:48:14 <ehird> It's just that TeX isn't anything like HTML+CSS.
16:48:44 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd just re-render it every time
16:48:51 <ehird> that's basically what browsers do, 'cept incrementally.
16:49:01 <ehird> GregorR: I wrote some VBScript-using pages when I was young and idiotic.
16:49:04 <ehird> Despite not knowing VBScript or JS.
16:49:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Tough shit. It's just not suited.
16:49:23 <ais523> I tried writing in VBScript, but then gave up and went back to batch files
16:49:30 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not TeX.
16:49:48 <ais523> the only VBScript program I ever got working could be translated into bash as echo $(($1))
16:49:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you do it using some package for LaTeX?
16:49:55 <ais523> actually, the bash script is probably more featureful
16:50:40 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to hyperref (for pdf TOC and links in pdf) existed for pdf forms too
16:51:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what has that got to do with TeX?
16:51:16 <ais523> it's useful by WinHelp standards, but not by regular programming standards
16:51:22 <ais523> and because you can use it to implement links
16:51:43 <AnMaster> oh, links? Is that what it does. OK
16:52:18 <ais523> it's basically a goto, but you need to specify the filename of the file to jump to
16:52:24 <ais523> even if it happens to be the one you're in at the time
16:56:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: PDF is extremely powerful, actually.
16:56:29 <pikhq> It's basically a superset of Postscript...
16:56:35 <pikhq> Which is Turing-complete.
16:57:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc pdf is a subset, not a superset?
16:57:17 <ehird> Preview.app translates .ps files to PDF before rendering.
16:57:24 <ehird> Although maybe PDF doesn't have the code bits.
16:57:27 <ehird> And it just renders it.
16:57:49 <pikhq> PDF contains Postscript compiled to bytecode, some headers, and sometimes some other file sections.
16:58:05 <ehird> Wait, isn't it proprietary?
16:58:09 <ehird> Surely they couldn't use PS.
16:58:16 <AnMaster> from what I remember: pdf was originally a subset, but later on they added more features to pdf, so they are actually two intersecting formats, each having a few bits the other doesn't.
16:58:26 <pikhq> Postscript is a standard designed by Adobe.
16:58:30 <AnMaster> but yes I might have been wrong
16:58:34 <pikhq> PDF is also a standard designed by Adobe.
16:59:10 <ais523> translating postscript to pdf is like running ick -F
16:59:15 <ehird> ... Adobe made Postscript?
16:59:19 <ehird> I actually didn't know.
16:59:30 <ehird> ... wait, yes I knew that.
16:59:38 <ehird> But on the other hand I didn't know it as a sort of relation, just as a standalone fact.
17:00:03 <pikhq> AnMaster, you're right. PDF and PS have a common subset.
17:00:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, but both have features the other doesn't. Right
17:00:23 <ehird> Heh, an Apple printer was the first PS printer
17:00:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
17:00:34 <pikhq> Still Turing-complete.
17:00:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's what a common subset means.
17:00:51 <ais523> I thought PDF was rather light on control structures
17:00:57 <ehird> The use of PostScript did not come cheap. At an introductory price of US$6,995, the LaserWriter was more expensive than PC laser printers of comparable print speed and quality. The LaserWriter's high cost was largely due to the extra processing power needed to run the PostScript interpreter. As it was a complete programming language, PostScript came saddled with the overhead of a complex software rasterizer program (running inside the printer). Powering
17:00:59 <ehird> the LaserWriter was a Motorola 68000 CPU running at 12 MHz, 512KB of workspace RAM, and a 1 MB framebuffer. At introduction, the LaserWriter had the most processing power in Apple's product line — more than an 8 MHz Macintosh.
17:01:04 <ehird> Just use a LaserWriter to do your computing!
17:01:07 <ehird> It's extra-powerful ;-)
17:01:14 <pikhq> the conditionals are removed from PDF.
17:01:21 <pikhq> *Why* are the conditionals removed from PDF?!?
17:01:21 <ehird> Damn the old macs were slow.
17:02:20 <AnMaster> ehird, that's still faster than the C64 afaik
17:02:29 <ehird> The C64 is ancient.
17:02:33 <ehird> AnMaster: but the c64 didn't have a nice GUI.
17:02:40 <ehird> The C64 wasn't used for desktop publishing.
17:02:41 <AnMaster> just trying to add a perspective to this
17:02:55 <ehird> 8mhz is slow however you slice it :P
17:03:08 <AnMaster> by the standards back then Macs were not that slow.
17:03:29 <ehird> AnMaster: also, the NTSC c64 was 1.02MHz
17:03:33 <ehird> admittedly a different architechture
17:03:37 <ehird> but that's not massively slower
17:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and 8 mhz is faster than many embedded microcontrollers.
17:03:51 <ehird> Yes, but they're not desktop computers.
17:03:58 <ehird> They're embedded microcontrollers.
17:04:20 <ehird> I couldn't write a non-trivial program that ran under the constraints of the original Macintosh, probably
17:04:34 <AnMaster> ehird, in 20 years or so people will look at intel nehlam (spelling?) the same way.
17:04:48 <ehird> AnMaster: closer than 20 years
17:05:29 * pikhq is freaking crazy, and knows of some scary, scary ways to do multitasking on systems with low memory.
17:05:46 <ais523> I've done multitasking on a microcontroller without an OS before
17:05:57 <pikhq> ... Not as crazy as the guy who made a multitasking GUI on the C64, mind.
17:06:01 <ais523> by hooking all the tasks but one into signal handlers
17:06:39 <pikhq> ... Or the UNIX for C64, for that matter.
17:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, that is a rather high end PIC right
17:08:01 <ais523> also, someone's likely to have ported ucLinux or something to the C64 by now
17:08:05 <ais523> probably just to claim they could
17:08:12 <ais523> AnMaster: higher enough it's technically something different
17:08:16 <ais523> it's 16-bit, for one thing
17:08:51 <ehird> http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html
17:08:58 <pikhq> Written in assembly.
17:09:03 <ehird> This just makes "Lunix" to mean "Linux" even funnier.
17:09:49 <pikhq> Contiki, though, is just freaking crazy.
17:10:12 <AnMaster> anyone got a link to Contiki. I remember reading about it some years ago
17:10:27 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.png
17:10:47 <ehird> http://www.sics.se/contiki/
17:11:46 <ais523> why do people keep linking to the images themselves on Wikipedia, not the image description page/
17:11:47 <AnMaster> I assume it needs some form of changed hardware to support network?
17:11:55 <ehird> ais523: because we don't like the UIcruft.
17:11:58 <ais523> it's like people are going out of their way to violate the attribution requirements of the image
17:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, because that loads more slowly?
17:12:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and often it is scaled down
17:12:14 <ehird> almost all of the time the cruft around the image is worthless
17:12:17 <ehird> and yeah, scaled down
17:12:18 <AnMaster> so you HAVE to click the image to see what it means
17:12:27 <ehird> and feel free to sue me for not attributing
17:12:42 <ais523> ehird: I can't, it has to be the image's copyright holder who does that
17:12:50 <ehird> ais523: I'll wait here.
17:13:49 <AnMaster> ais523, there should be a stripped down format then. Just a minimal html page with no css, first a link to the image description page, then the image below in full size
17:14:14 <ehird> I wouldn't be, it's still cruft :-P
17:14:21 <ehird> For example, you can't do
17:14:23 <AnMaster> ehird, much *less* cruft though
17:14:29 <ehird> When it's an image we're linking to
17:14:43 <ais523> ah, it's no good, I'm going home
17:14:46 <AnMaster> it should have same file name with .html instead of .png/.jpg/.svg/.whatever
17:14:49 <ais523> I'm too tired to think straight at all
17:14:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, then you could just have http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.html
17:15:15 <AnMaster> and it would be easy to change
17:15:19 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but think of the plan 9 users
17:15:31 <ehird> (I think that's the right invocation)
17:15:44 <ehird> AnMaster: more convincing:
17:15:51 <ehird> they can't right/middle click the link in IRC (I forget whic)
17:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, surely there is some text replace to strip .html off http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Contiki-C64.png.html
17:15:55 <ehird> and get their image viewer up
17:16:17 <AnMaster> but it would open in their browser instead
17:16:32 <pikhq> Surely they have sed.
17:16:32 <ehird> AnMaster: if they have one. plan 9 browsers suck. And yes, one tool for one job.
17:16:40 <ehird> pikhq: 17:15 ehird: they can't right/middle click the link in IRC (I forget whic)
17:17:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, add a watermark to the picture. That is what is left then
17:17:11 <ehird> pikhq: so we waste people's time for no gain
17:17:15 <ehird> AnMaster: or just continue doing what we do
17:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you could script the client to automatically do that for you for wikipedia links
17:19:24 <AnMaster> s|http://upload\.wikimedia\.org/(.+)\.([^.]+)\.html|http://upload\.wikimedia\.org/\1.\2|
17:21:13 <AnMaster> hm contiki is ported to other platforms than C64 is it?
17:22:11 <AnMaster> http://www.sics.se/contiki/ doesn't mention C64 anywhere I can see
17:22:11 <ehird> It's a very technobabbly page.
17:22:33 <ehird> The Contiki Operating System - Home
17:22:33 <ehird> Highly portable, multitasking OS for low memory networked embedded systems; typical install is 2K RAM, 40K ROM; event-driven kernel, programs load and ...
17:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.sics.se/contiki/perspective/run-the-commodore-64-version-of-contiki-anno-2004-in-your-browser.html
17:22:49 <ehird> Today Contiki is mostly known as an operating system for networked embedded systems. A few years ago, however, Contiki's primary claim to fame was its Commodore 64 port. With the help of JAC64, a Java-based C64 emulator developed by my colleague and fellow Contiki developer Joakim Eriksson, you can now experience the C64 port of Contiki 1.2-devel1 again, directly in your web browser! Click here to enjoy it - unfortunately without networking support at pr
17:22:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked about, and so on and it only talks about embedded chipsets and such
17:23:02 <pikhq> Contiki is on a *lot* of platforms.
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17:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey. AMD have their own version of ICC-like stuff
17:59:28 <ehird> http://developer.amd.com/CPU/OPEN64/Pages/default.aspx
17:59:49 <ehird> Try cfunge with it :P
18:00:59 <AnMaster> I will look at the url later. Atm I wouldn't want to browse anything, system is heavily loaded, generating a graph of the space usage under /home
18:02:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Er... how big is your /home?
18:02:32 <ehird> So's mine but it takes less than one minute to list all the files and usages of them
18:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, loading firefox at the same time as the disk is working so heavily would be insane.
18:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, your computer is newer to begin with.
18:03:42 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a disk-bound operation
18:03:45 <ehird> I guess your disk might be slow
18:04:12 * ehird refers to floppies and HDs as disks but optical media as discs; I wonder why?
18:04:18 <AnMaster> and I have mostly lots of small files. Lots of directories
18:04:22 <ehird> It just feels right. "Disk is cheap", "Disc is cheap"
18:04:31 <ehird> "I'm ripping this disk", "I'm ripping this disc"
18:04:39 <ehird> "I got it off this floppy disk", "I got it off this floppy disc"
18:06:06 <AnMaster> trivia: sv:diskmaskin means en:dishwasher
18:06:50 <ehird> I got it off this floppy dish
18:08:27 <kerlo> The distinction I heard once and nowadays make myself: a disk is computer storage, a disc is a round thing.
18:08:44 <ehird> kerlo: HDs use discs.
18:08:55 <ehird> also, it's "Compact Disc"
18:08:57 <kerlo> A frisbee is a flying disc. A flash card is a disk. A CD or a hard drive platter is both a disc and a disk.
18:09:17 <AnMaster> sv:disk means en:dish as in dish washing, but not in the other meanings of dish
18:09:19 <ehird> I seem to use disk as a plural:
18:09:39 <kerlo> If you're using "is", it's not a plural.
18:10:32 <AnMaster> en:dishware is sv:servis, but a dirty set of dishware, may very well be sv:disk
18:10:46 <AnMaster> actually I can't think of any exact corresponding word in English
18:11:52 <kerlo> Wiktionary essentially says "floppy disk, hard disk, compact disc: optical media are discs, other media are disks."
18:12:20 <ehird> 18:09 kerlo: If you're using "is", it's not a plural.
18:12:21 <AnMaster> did both disk and disc existed in English before computers?
18:12:24 <ehird> but it's referring to multiple disks
18:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Disc existed. Disk did not,
18:12:48 <AnMaster> so what is the origin of disk then
18:12:56 <ehird> Neologism, probably.
18:12:59 <kerlo> Or, to use an actual quote: "If the medium is optical, the variant disc is usually preferred . . . if referring to a physical drive or older media (3" or 5.25" diskettes) the k is used, but c is used for newer (optical based) media."
18:13:00 <pikhq> Technically, it's a floppy diskette, BTW. :p
18:13:22 <kerlo> "Disk" is from Greek, "disc" is from Latin.
18:13:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think "cette" ever works.
18:13:30 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:13:31 <ehird> I think that forces it to be a k.
18:13:32 <AnMaster> "discette" looks slightly French...
18:13:34 <kerlo> "Discette" would be pronounced wrong.
18:13:35 <ehird> So probably disk came from diskette.
18:13:41 <ehird> Where diskette comes from disc-ette.
18:14:14 <kerlo> In Spanish, "disc" + "ette" would be "disquette". But "ette" isn't a Spanish suffix.
18:14:41 <kerlo> "disc" + "ito" would probably be "disquito", though, and it would mean "little disc".
18:15:36 <AnMaster> "<kerlo> "Discette" would be pronounced wrong." <-- why then are there quite a few words in English that aren't pronounced as they are spelled. Since those exists, why would another such word hurt.
18:15:42 <kerlo> If the Spanish word for "disc" were "disc". It's actually "disco". The diminutive would still be "disquito", or possibly "disquecito" or possibly-possibly "discocito".
18:16:16 <kerlo> AnMaster: it's quite rare in English for a "c" to be pronounced the wrong way.
18:16:39 <AnMaster> that is true, but weird spellings aren't unusual
18:16:45 <AnMaster> "guitar" comes to mind for example.
18:17:08 <kerlo> But that's not a "c" that's being pronounced the wrong way. I think it's a copying of Spanish.
18:17:08 <ehird> the "gui" in guitar is distinctly spanish feeling
18:17:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is probably an imported word
18:17:31 <kerlo> The Spanish pronunciation of "guitar" would be essentially the same.
18:17:51 <AnMaster> ehird, when said in English it sounds more like "gitar" iirc?
18:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Sort of.
18:18:12 <AnMaster> it is "gitarr" in Swedish btw.
18:19:40 <kerlo> "gitar", stressed on the second syllable, with a hard g and a short i.
18:19:49 <pikhq> "Disc" comes from the Latin "discus". Disk also.
18:20:35 <kerlo> According to Wiktionary, "disc" comes from "disque" which comes from "discus" which comes from "diskos", and "disk" comes directly from "diskos".
18:21:03 * pikhq shakes a fist at English
18:21:50 <kerlo> Instead of speaking English, we should just speak an anglicised amalgamation of Old French, Latin, and Ancient Greek.
18:22:25 <pikhq> So, you mean English.
18:23:06 <kerlo> English contains things that are not from any of those.
18:23:22 <ehird> I only remember that Lojban now.
18:23:42 <kerlo> I'm pretty sure "wife" is quite Germanic, for one.
18:23:48 <pikhq> (though the French influences in English are from Anglo-Norman, not Old French)
18:24:00 <kerlo> Wiktionary says that everything is from Old French.
18:24:02 <ehird> I wish Lojban had some sounds more suited to my name.
18:24:08 <ehird> Eli'at.xrd is not very Elliott Hird at all.
18:24:18 <ehird> It's more a-y than o-y, and my first name does not start with Bach's ch.
18:24:50 <pikhq> Anglo-Norman, of course, being itself an amalgamation of Old French and some Germanic language...
18:25:13 <pikhq> (granted, the main Germanic influences on Norman are in its grammer)
18:26:21 <kerlo> ehird: you're spelling it kind of weirdly.
18:26:32 <pikhq> I manage to misspell that word, and only that word, often.
18:26:34 <ehird> kerlo: It's what #lojban agreed on.
18:26:46 <ehird> That's just a typographical oddity.
18:26:55 <ehird> I've forgotten Lojban, you see.
18:27:14 <kerlo> It seems "Elliott" would be .eli,yt., though.
18:27:15 <ehird> I used "mi'e .Eli,at. xrd.", says google.
18:27:39 <kerlo> Unless you actually pronounce it with a short o.
18:27:50 <kerlo> So that it kind of rhymes with "polyglot".
18:28:36 <ehird> It's time for a recording.
18:28:48 * pikhq wants a Lojban programming language
18:29:19 <ehird> pikhq: Been there, tried that
18:29:31 <ehird> It's still natural language.
18:29:33 <kerlo> You can write Unlambda in Lojban.
18:29:38 <ehird> It just has an unambiguous grammar.
18:29:41 <pikhq> Seems like the grammar would be easy...
18:29:49 <pikhq> Getting sane semantics might be tricky.
18:29:56 <pikhq> ehird, it's a constructed language.
18:30:09 <pikhq> Not a natural language. ;)
18:30:12 <ehird> But it's constructed by humans, and to be a language for humans.
18:30:18 <ehird> It's not a programming language or a formal language.
18:30:20 <ehird> It's a natural language.
18:30:27 <ehird> kerlo: http://filebin.ca/oceeca/eliatxrd.ogg
18:30:33 <ehird> Released under the Share and Enjoy! license.
18:30:35 <pikhq> A natural language is the opposite of a constructed language.
18:30:39 <ehird> The Share and Enjoy! License
18:30:41 <ehird> 1. Share and Enjoy!
18:31:01 <pikhq> ehird, are you saying that I should stick my head in a pig?
18:31:02 <kerlo> ``sk`sk = lo me sy be lo my ky bei lo me sy be lo ky
18:31:23 <ehird> kerlo: that's using lojban's predicate stuff, right?
18:31:36 <ehird> so if you say ```sii``sii, you'll crash the brains of Lojban speakers?
18:31:46 <ehird> pikhq: I missed the joke.
18:31:58 <kerlo> It's impossible to say anything of worth in just about any language without using predicate stuff.
18:32:05 <pikhq> ehird: No, I'm doing a different one.
18:32:08 <ehird> a related line from h2g2?
18:32:29 <ehird> Specific quotes from that book have a tendency to roll off me shortly after reading the whole thing.
18:32:32 * pikhq has that song stuck in his head now, dammit.
18:32:34 <ehird> kerlo: So, what did I say in that ogg?
18:32:35 <kerlo> English has the same predicate stuff. That Lojban is pretty much precisely the same as the English "the S of the K of the S of the K", except with little words specifying associativity.
18:32:44 <kerlo> ehird: I haven't listened to ityet.
18:33:10 <kerlo> This is where you scold me for using Windows.
18:33:39 <ehird> kerlo, stop using a shitty operating system.
18:34:44 <kerlo> Would you like me to attempt to justify my use of Windows to you?
18:34:55 <ehird> kerlo: Yes, so I may laugh at you.
18:35:27 <kerlo> As far as I remember, this is a complete list of things I've been unable to do under Windows: 1. Run Freenet reliably. 2. Play an OGG file.
18:36:35 <ehird> kerlo: That's not a good argument. You need to argue why you won't use Linux, a technically superior operating system, not why you keep using Windows.
18:37:03 * pikhq notes that you also probably can't reliably play FLAC files
18:37:06 <ehird> Or any other operating system on the planet apart from DOS.
18:37:06 <kerlo> ...well, things I've been unable to do under Windows that I would expect to be able to do under Linux.
18:37:37 <kerlo> Sound doesn't work well under Linux. YouTube videos don't play acceptably.
18:37:42 <pikhq> ehird: I dunno, DOS seems at least better-designed.
18:37:46 <ehird> kerlo: Which Linux are we talking about here?
18:37:54 <ehird> Here's how you get YouTube videos working on Ubuntu:
18:38:01 <ehird> Accessories → Install/Remove.
18:38:02 <pikhq> kerlo: Sound works quite well under Linux, and I find YouTube works much nicer in Linux.
18:38:05 <pikhq> youtube-dl and all that.
18:38:13 <ehird> That Was Hard(TM).
18:38:37 * pikhq doesn't use the Flash player for YouTube, but that's just because mplayer is much better at playing videos
18:39:01 <kerlo> YouTube videos actually play better without Flash?
18:39:28 <ehird> kerlo: anyway, so, there's a refutation of the YouTube argument. If you're using a recent Linux (say with PulseAudio), there should be no sound problems either.
18:39:29 <pikhq> kerlo, what he suggests there is to *install* Flash.
18:39:31 <ehird> Any other arguments?
18:39:44 <pikhq> Ubuntu by default ships with a crappy partial implementation of Flash.
18:39:51 <ehird> No it doesn't, pikhq.
18:39:55 <ehird> It doesn't do any such thing.
18:40:01 <ehird> It ships without any flash plugin whatsoever.
18:40:10 <kerlo> I'm not used to operating systems under which "Add/Remove Programs" is capable of adding programs.
18:40:10 <pikhq> Must be thinking of Mandriva, then.
18:40:25 <ehird> kerlo: OK, so your new argument is "It's easier, I don't like that." :P
18:40:32 <pikhq> That's the normal way of installing stuff on Linux.
18:40:42 <kerlo> That wasn't a new argument, that was jsut a comment.
18:40:53 <kerlo> See you in a moment, when I'm running Linux again.
18:41:06 <ehird> kerlo: that's one quick installer
18:41:31 <kerlo> It's not like I installed Linux in the past couple minutes.
18:41:44 <ehird> kerlo: what version of Ubuntu is it?
18:41:55 <ehird> If it's pre-pulseaudio, that may explain screwy sound.
18:42:06 <ehird> If you've installed a non-Adobe Flash, that would explain YouTube.
18:42:11 <kerlo> I don't recall. Probably the newest.
18:42:23 <kerlo> I have seen the PulseAudio thing.
18:42:25 <ehird> You installed it after April 2x?
18:45:59 <kerlo> So here we are now, in containers. And by "in containers", I mean "running Linux".
18:46:22 <kerlo> The version turns out to be 8.10.
18:47:01 * Sgeo became a reddit person
18:47:05 <kerlo> The sound is set to "Autodetect", not "PulseAudio Sound Server".
18:47:37 <ehird> kerlo: Don't change it.
18:48:12 <kerlo> When you say Accessories → Install/Remove, do you mean Administration → Synaptic Package Manager, by any chance?
18:48:27 <ehird> I mean Programs → Install/Remove.
18:48:56 <ehird> And if it's not there, you've messed it up somehow and should just reinstall to exorcise whatever demons are in that installation.
18:49:15 * kerlo tries Applications → Add/Remove
18:49:28 <ehird> I haven't used Ubuntu in a day or two.
18:49:39 <Sgeo> What does an asterisk next to e.g. "2 days ago" mean?
18:49:55 <ehird> Sgeo: comment edited.
18:50:42 <kerlo> Will "Macromedia Flash plugin" do?
18:50:53 <ehird> Sgeo: Tips for keeping your sanity on reddit: unsubscribe to politics, news, worldnews, worldpolitics, atheism. Unless you like hearing about how awesome Obama is, how stupid Christians are, and how awesome Obama is (what do you mean "world").
18:52:07 <ehird> Or just read /r/{programming,science,technology} which is a good chunk of what's left :-P
18:53:22 <kerlo> Anyway, the "o" of "Elliott" there actually sounds a lot like a short "i".
18:53:35 <kerlo> Which means it's a schwa, which is y, not a short "o", which is a.
18:53:42 <ehird> kerlo: I suppose os.
18:54:01 <ehird> kerlo: what about xrd?
18:54:05 <ehird> That x is just so fake.
18:54:41 <kerlo> I don't think there's much you can do about that. I mean, you could make it .y'yd. or something.
18:54:54 <ehird> That's not very Hird
18:55:11 <ehird> kerlo: maybe .xird. is more accurate?
18:56:01 <kerlo> That's pretty much a long "e", after all.
18:56:08 * Sgeo wonders if ehird's comment will bring anyone into Agora
18:56:23 <ehird> Sgeo: probably not. stop stalking me :-P
18:56:40 <kerlo> Anyway, I have to go eat lunch. The sound problem still exists; it's not exclusive to YouTube, apparently. See you when I get back.
18:58:40 <kerlo> I was mistaken. See you when I get there.
18:59:22 <kerlo> And I guess I'll also see you before I leave.
18:59:33 <kerlo> It seems like buffer underruns, being slow and choppy.
18:59:47 <ehird> That seems very unlikely
18:59:51 <ehird> My suggestion: reinstall
19:01:04 <kerlo> I don't suppose there's a convenient "uninstall Ubuntu" thing I can use that will keep my home folder and Firefox's configuration.
19:01:28 <ehird> kerlo: Don't you have a flashdrive?
19:01:35 <ehird> cp -R ~ /media/flashdrive/home
19:01:39 <ehird> cp -R .firefox /media/flashdrive/ff
19:01:58 <ehird> kerlo: I think ubuntu has an import thing but it's likely some of your settings are contributing to this
19:02:01 <kerlo> Well, it's only minimal stuff that I would have to do.
19:02:35 <kerlo> All my data resides elsewhere; I'd just have to make new symbolic links to it.
19:14:06 <AnMaster> bbl, possibly night. (not feeling well)
19:16:25 <ehird> I could never sleep that early.
19:31:04 <comex> how do I make this less ugly
19:31:07 <comex> http://pastie.org/private/er1czt3oce9nf7tuqcfpg
19:31:56 <comex> in particular it's way too polite
19:32:02 <ehird> by not using state unneccessarily
19:32:16 <ehird> and not using that fucked up "Wrap" type
19:32:25 <ehird> does that thing even fulfil the monad laws
19:32:25 <comex> though that's kinda similar to how the HTTP module works
19:32:57 <ehird> comex: isn't that the ((->) t) monad
19:33:08 <comex> ehird: never heard of it
19:34:20 * comex looks at Gtk2Hs documentation
19:34:23 <comex> I want to see how real modules do it
19:34:41 <ehird> gtk2hs does it by being evil, comex.
19:34:49 <ehird> whatever you're trying to do is probably wrong
19:35:00 <comex> I want to make a GUI toolkit :p
19:35:25 <ehird> comex: you don't even know haskell properly, don't be stupid
19:37:54 * Sgeo is devising ways to torture norns
19:40:35 <Sgeo> I just figured you'd have interest in this
19:41:23 <comex> what about just declaring UIs functionally
19:41:36 <Sgeo> My plan is constantly injecting full Disappointment and Punishment into all the norns in the world
19:41:43 <comex> where the user defines a function blablastate -> UI
19:41:44 <Sgeo> And sustaining their lives
19:41:45 <ehird> I just suggest you learn hs first :P
19:41:48 <ehird> that's not functional
19:41:53 <ehird> that's just a manual monad
19:41:56 <comex> more functional than gtk2hs
19:42:20 <Sgeo> They wouldn't actually be in pain, but it would probably cause permanent brain damage after a while
19:42:20 <comex> you would declare the ui as a big list or something
19:42:22 <ehird> no, it's just a manual monad
19:42:29 <comex> rather than by specifying operations to create it
19:42:57 <Sgeo> As the bits that tell it "Ok, when I'm hungry, I should eat" eventually die from basically being told "WRONG!"
19:43:09 <Sgeo> and just about everything rldr
19:43:12 <comex> [Button, Button, Button] whatever
19:43:17 <comex> button < - buttonNew olol
19:43:27 -!- olsner has joined.
19:44:02 <ehird> Sgeo: Just give up the habit before Creatures 734723846823: Now They're Sentient
19:44:37 <comex> when I type :w on this remote file, the color goes away
19:44:58 <comex> I have to manually :syntax on
19:48:46 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make a potion that, when eaten, causes the norn to have very violent dreams
19:49:10 <ehird> "Mormons, mormons, mormons mormons mormons
19:49:12 <ehird> Mormons, mormons, morrrr-
19:49:13 <ehird> -mons, mormons, mormons mormons mormons
19:49:19 <Sgeo> When the norn wakes up, no matter what (e.g. hunger, bored, horny), its dream will have taught the norn to hit norns
19:49:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Just make them reproduce all the time and die of overpopulation (does inbreeding have effects in Creatures?)
19:50:26 <Sgeo> I don't think overpopulation is a serious issue, except slowing down the computer
19:50:37 <Sgeo> As far as I'm aware, inbreeding has no effects
19:50:48 <ehird> Sgeo: What, creatures take up no space?
19:51:43 <Sgeo> Well, they'd feel crowded eventually
19:51:58 <ehird> Sgeo: So you can have infinite creatures in infinite space
19:52:02 <Sgeo> Yes, they take up space, but except for the crowdedness drive, they wouldn't notice
19:52:03 <GregorR> Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon MUSLIM MUSLIM! A Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon Mormon MUSLIM MUSLIM
19:52:36 <ehird> GregorR: Obama! Non-natural-born citizeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
19:52:47 <ehird> a mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon mormon, mormon mormon mormon MUSLIN MUSLIN
20:03:01 <fungot> mormon ormon rmon mon on n
20:03:52 <fizzie> There were a couple of variants on the "echo" commands on fungot.
20:03:52 <fungot> fizzie: my hangman doesn't support unicode.
20:03:53 <ehird> ^choo A magical butt.
20:03:54 <fungot> A magical butt. magical butt. magical butt. agical butt. gical butt. ical butt. cal butt. al butt. l butt. butt. butt. utt. tt. t. .
20:03:58 <ehird> 20:03 fungot: fizzie: my hangman doesn't support unicode.
20:03:59 <fungot> ehird: but we're rebuilding anyway, since it makes some sense. but basically, it's riastradh's sketchings i'm filling out nicely...
20:04:06 <ehird> it DOES make some sense
20:04:10 <ehird> fizzie: what did you do to fungot?!
20:04:10 <fungot> ehird: an alternative would be for. there was this http://www.sarg.ryerson.ca/dmason/ common/ fnord/ comments
20:04:17 <ehird> fungot: What alternative?
20:04:18 <fungot> ehird: applying ep1 to ep2 now.
20:04:26 <ehird> fungot: That sounds like something liable to cause an explosion.
20:04:27 <fungot> ehird: grrr... why doesn't ( cons ' a ' b
20:04:32 <GregorR> !addinterp c choo char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i);
20:04:32 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for c!
20:04:37 <ehird> fungot: You're not cut out to be a Lisp programmer.
20:04:41 <GregorR> !addinterp choo c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i);
20:04:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo installed.
20:04:51 <ehird> !choo IM OKA LOTJOIER
20:04:52 <EgoBot> IM OKA LOTJOIER M OKA LOTJOIER OKA LOTJOIER OKA LOTJOIER KA LOTJOIER A LOTJOIER LOTJOIER LOTJOIER OTJOIER TJOIER JOIER OIER IER ER R
20:04:56 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
20:05:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo deleted.
20:05:17 <GregorR> !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
20:05:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo installed.
20:05:36 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo deleted.
20:05:40 <GregorR> !addinterp choo c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); buf[strlen(buf)-1] = '\0'; for (i = 0; buf[i]; i++) printf("%s ", buf + i);
20:05:40 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo installed.
20:06:04 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo deleted.
20:06:14 <ehird> !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
20:06:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo installed.
20:06:19 <GregorR> No, 'ts still no good because EgoBot sends a newline.
20:06:29 <ehird> 20:06 EgoBot: HOO!
20:06:58 <GregorR> Yeah, but that's still no good.
20:13:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo deleted.
20:14:26 <GregorR> !addinterp choo bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
20:14:26 <EgoBot> Interpreter choo installed.
20:14:44 <EgoBot> bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
20:14:44 <ehird> !choo Dij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof
20:14:45 <EgoBot> Dij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof ij fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof j fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof fog agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof og agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof g agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof agju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof gju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof ju ufdhaiug njkknfjks klefjw sdiof u ufdhaiug njkk
20:17:10 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo hello rot13 slashes yodawg
20:17:19 <EgoBot> perl #!/usr/bin/perl -w
20:17:31 <GregorR> Heh, I'm not going to get that output fully :P
20:18:07 <GregorR> Maybe I could make it ctcp send.
20:19:47 <ehird> GregorR: make it pastebin
20:20:34 <fizzie> Make it send it with smoke signals out of your chimney.
20:35:16 <kerlo> comex: it seems to me that the vast majority of your code there is unnecessary.
20:36:24 <kerlo> data Sometype = SomeType Int Int Int deriving (Show, Eq)
20:36:46 <kerlo> j (SomeType _ _ c) = SomeType 5 9 c
20:36:54 <kerlo> k = j (SomeType 10 11 12)
20:39:34 <kerlo> If you need a monad, it's data Wrap a = Wrap ((a, SomeType) -> SomeType), and already exists; it's called State SomeType.
20:39:57 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:40:23 <GregorR> Bleh, /me can't figure out how DCC CHAT is supposed to work.
20:42:25 * kerlo curses his terminal
20:42:37 <kerlo> g - a cursed terminal
20:43:40 <ehird> kerlo: I thought you were using linux
20:43:55 <GregorR> OK, so that's annoying. The IP needs to be in decimal form X_X
20:44:08 <GregorR> That is, one-decimal-number form.
20:44:13 <GregorR> The retarded form everybody forgets exists.
20:44:55 <kerlo> For sentimental reasons, I require an ssh client that does not send a username.
20:45:06 <kerlo> It's very nice to connect to an SSH server and be asked for a username.
20:45:20 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:46:23 <kerlo> Does EgoBot have a way to compose commands?
20:46:35 <ehird> kerlo: why download putty
20:46:38 <ehird> install it from the package manager
20:47:02 <ehird> THAT'S LIKE HALF OF THE WHOLE POINT OF USING LINUX!
20:47:04 <pikhq> Just about everything is in the package manager.
20:47:10 <ehird> YOU BARELY EVER INSTALL EVERYTHING MANUALLY! :P
20:47:17 <kerlo> Well, I knew that you could download just about everything using the package manager.
20:47:29 <kerlo> I just thought that PuTTY in particular was not available that way.
20:47:50 <ehird> Right. PuTTY is made of magical unicorns, which are impossible to stick into a .deb
20:48:51 <kerlo> No, I seemed to remember reading something along the lines of "nope, we don't make PuTTY for *NIX; do it yourself".
20:49:56 <ehird> That's why the distros make it themselves
20:54:11 <GregorR> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
20:54:13 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
20:55:07 <ehird> "Santa Clara (CA) – Yesterday, we learned that Intel has begun phasing out the Core i7 940 processor, today we are told that the Extreme version 965 will be retired this year as well. "
20:55:17 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING INTEL?!
20:56:04 <Deewiant> Is there something wrong with phasing out first-gen processors?
20:56:17 <ehird> Deewiant: They were only released a few months ago, and I want one :-P
20:56:26 <ehird> I guess the 975 will be out sometime, though.
20:56:31 <Deewiant> Most likely they'll release replacements.
20:56:53 <Deewiant> It's not like they'll just say "nah, we're out of the high-end processor business, AMD can have that"
20:57:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Weeell, you have to go AMD if you want >8 cores.
20:57:44 <ehird> Wait, I think the last-gen Xeons had a single 6 core chip.
20:58:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I just picked up on it since I'm assembling such a system in my head :-P
20:58:09 <ehird> ... or in an editor window as the case may be.
20:58:33 <GregorR> !befunge98 mycology/mycology.b98
20:58:50 <GregorR> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
20:59:27 <ehird> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
20:59:29 <GregorR> And no limits other than <4K total data.
20:59:29 <Deewiant> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
20:59:32 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
20:59:41 <GregorR> Still sends the first line to the channel though ;)
20:59:45 <ehird> GregorR: my client appears not to do dcc chat.
20:59:55 <GregorR> ehird: Wow, you have a reaaaaaaaally lame client :P
21:00:05 <ehird> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
21:00:08 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
21:00:23 <Deewiant> GregorR: Does it wait until it's been accepted before it sends?
21:00:23 <ehird> GregorR: No, this is odd, it hasn't said the first line of my mycology invocation yet.
21:00:36 <ehird> GregorR: 21:00 CTCP-query unknown(DCC CHAT) from EgoBot : chat 1077849409 10054
21:00:36 <Deewiant> Since I had to look up the command to accept a DCC chat request :-P
21:00:49 <GregorR> Deewiant: There is no command to accept a DCC chat request.
21:01:06 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, that's not gonna work :P
21:01:22 <GregorR> Deewiant: Well that's laem. It should still work though, it only sends once you've connected.
21:01:34 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Client-to-Client#DCC_CHAT
21:01:41 * Sgeo hates 16-bit color
21:01:42 <ehird> GregorR: Just make it run a minimal HTTP server and proxy it from $SERVER, so if the program outputs multiple lines it goes:
21:01:44 <ehird> <EgoBot> first line
21:01:47 <Deewiant> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
21:01:50 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
21:01:50 <ehird> <EgoBot> http://codu.org/egobot/snippets/342348
21:01:52 <GregorR> Deewiant: The handshake is "I send you DCC CHAT, you connect"
21:01:57 <ehird> GregorR: And then have people reload that to get more.
21:02:20 <Deewiant> But then the session got lost or something, half way through
21:02:25 <GregorR> ehird: That would be so much more obnoxious.
21:02:36 <Deewiant> GregorR: Yeah, exactly, I have to accept the connection, that's what I meant.
21:02:39 <ehird> GregorR: How? It'd let other people view it, and not have their irc clients beep every 2 seconds.
21:02:52 <Deewiant> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/mandelbrot.b
21:02:55 <EgoBot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDEGFFEEEEDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
21:02:55 <GregorR> ehird: Every 2 seconds? It sends everything INSTANTLY
21:03:11 <ehird> GregorR: My other reason, then.
21:03:24 <Deewiant> I only get one line, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDDDDDDEEEFGIIGFFEEEDDDDDDDDCCCCCCCCCBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, if the chat wasn't already open
21:03:27 <ehird> PMADDUBSWMultiply and Add Packed Signed and Unsigned BytesTake the bytes in registers A and B, multiply them together, add pairs, signed-saturate and store. IE [a0 a1 a2 ...] pmaddubsw [b0 b1 b2 ...] = [satsw(a0b0+a1b1) satsw(a2b2+a3b3) ...]
21:03:32 <ehird> What an obvious operation.
21:03:55 <GregorR> Letting other people view it isn't compelling to me, that's really not the point, and I wanted to keep everything more-or-less in-IRC.
21:04:21 <GregorR> A combo would be nice, but a bit of a PITA.
21:04:21 <ehird> GregorR: If someone runs a command in a public channel, I would assume they're displaying something to the world. They get the first line displayed at least.
21:04:27 <ehird> If they don't want that why not just /msg the bot?
21:05:09 <GregorR> Well, right now because due to a bug that I haven't figured out, the bot doesn't accept commands over /msg :P
21:05:55 <GregorR> I don't think people are always, or even often, showing something to the world, they're usually pokin' around.
21:06:28 <ehird> Pokin' around's perfectly possible in /msg. Besides, if it's the fun sort of public pokin' around (innuendo not intended. Maybe.) then THE WORLD SHOULD SEE IT IN ALL IT'S GLOOOOOOOOORY
21:08:06 <GregorR> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/beer.b
21:08:07 <EgoBot> 99 Bottles of beer on the wall
21:08:23 <GregorR> Heh, it only got as far as 63 :P
21:09:33 <Sgeo> And my "immortal" norn died
21:09:38 <fizzie> I wouldn't probably be in a very good speaking condition after `expr 99 - 63` beers either.
21:10:15 <Sgeo> It's not supposed to drown!
21:10:16 <ehird> Sgeo: make an immortal norn suicidal
21:10:34 <Sgeo> I don't think norns can be made suicidal. Violent, but not suicidal
21:10:43 <GregorR> OK, I have to know WTF norns are :P
21:11:30 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatures_(artificial_life_program)
21:12:50 * Sgeo deactivates the Death by Low Energy gene
21:13:20 <Sgeo> And death by low ATP, but even without that gene, 0 ATP kills organs, I think
21:13:51 * Sgeo adds full energy to his ATP creation gene
21:15:03 <Sgeo> You sleep with the fishies now, tough guy
21:15:15 <GregorR> You do a good job of making it sound godawfully dull.
21:16:21 <ehird> GregorR: He's not playing the game regularly.
21:16:26 <ehird> He's hax0ring the internal gene stuff.
21:16:32 <ehird> I don't think that's supported
21:16:43 <Sgeo> But it's not normal gameplay
21:16:44 <ehird> Well, it's not how you play the game regularly, at least.
21:18:31 <ehird> Who wants to write 8080 code?
21:19:12 <ehird> What about 4004 code?
21:20:44 <GregorR> This analogy is like a really bad analogy: It's not clever and it makes no sense.
21:21:04 <ehird> http://www.e4004.szyc.org/
21:21:52 <GregorR> Not as sweet as JSMIPS but still ;)
21:22:29 <ehird> (That's 40 00, hexwise.)
21:23:09 <GregorR> * 4-Bit Parallel CPU With 46 Instructions
21:24:10 <ehird> GregorR: A thought for you while I brb: ARMjs. From the Simple Gargantuan Gadgets (SGG) chip company; an early competitor to Ligence.
21:25:03 <GregorR> Wow, that tells me so little :P
21:26:17 <Sgeo> This might be considered torture: The norn will feel needs and make decisions like a regular norn, but will have a neurological issue that causes everything to come out as "hit norn"
21:29:44 <Sgeo> Ok, my "hyperviolent" norn, instead of doing what I want, is having sex with the victim
21:30:05 <Sgeo> And things that the answer to all of life's problems is to go right
21:30:12 <Sgeo> And she fell asleep
21:30:54 <pikhq> You are fucked up.
21:31:08 <Sgeo> I was trying to clear all other attempted actions, instead, I set them all to active
21:32:36 <Sgeo> lol at the violence machine
21:33:55 <GregorR> Sgeo: Any information on whether openc2e is goodish?
21:33:59 <Sgeo> The violence machine is asleep
21:34:09 <Sgeo> GregorR, it's not usable for norns yet, I think
21:34:13 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I checked
21:34:32 <GregorR> So that makes it not usable with any of the games then, presumably :P
21:34:59 <Sgeo> I think you can get DS running without the norns in them
21:35:02 <Sgeo> But I'm not sure
21:38:26 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:41:14 <Sgeo> The norns walk around with frightened looks on their faces
21:41:17 <Sgeo> Scared of Ms. Violence
21:42:46 <Sgeo> "em like ms. violence"
21:43:39 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to kill her
21:43:43 <Sgeo> She keeps falling asleep
21:44:51 * GregorR adds that to the "list of comments to repeat endlessly out of context"
21:45:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:45:33 <Sgeo> She killed all the kids. The only other norn alive is near-immortal
21:46:00 <GregorR> Sounds like this was a really good decision on your part :P
21:46:16 <Sgeo> What decision?
21:46:17 <GregorR> Which game in the series are you playing? I think I may actually own Creatures 1 :P
21:46:23 <Sgeo> Docking Station
21:46:46 <Sgeo> She can't eat. She doesn't need to eat, but she's hungry
21:46:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I should fix that
21:47:00 <GregorR> Sgeo: I thought that was some kind of add-on (judging by Wikipedia), is that an actual (free??) game?
21:47:11 <Sgeo> GregorR, yes, it's an actual free game
21:47:36 <Sgeo> It's also an add-on
21:47:40 <Sgeo> But C3 is optional
21:48:38 <ehird> 21:24 ehird: GregorR: A thought for you while I brb: ARMjs. From the Simple Gargantuan Gadgets (SGG) chip company; an early competitor to Ligence.
21:48:39 <ehird> 21:25 GregorR: Wow, that tells me so little :P
21:49:04 <ehird> 21:43 Sgeo: I'm going to have to kill her
21:49:04 <ehird> 21:43 Sgeo: She keeps falling asleep
21:49:13 <Sgeo> The thing is, she doesn't WANT to hit norns. She is neurologically forced to, but she doens't want to
21:49:31 -!- jix has joined.
21:49:31 <ehird> Sgeo: Do the same but with breeding.
21:49:38 <ehird> I predict a fucked up Norn family.
21:50:23 <kerlo> I find Creatures boring because of the potential for the creatures to become immortal.
21:51:15 <kerlo> And then evolution just stops.
21:51:30 <ehird> kerlo: Shouldn't you dislike the Singularity for the same reason?
21:52:39 -!- tombom has joined.
21:57:30 <ehird> kerlo: With immortality, you just switch to upgrading in-place.
21:57:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:57:51 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:58:11 <kerlo> That doesn't happen in Creatures.
21:58:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:58:51 <Sgeo> ehird, making horny norns now
21:59:09 <ehird> kerlo: Creatures isn't the singularity :P
22:02:00 <Sgeo> They're going at it, and still no preg.. ok, there we go
22:04:21 <Sgeo> Ms. Violence disapproves of this family's antics
22:04:33 <ehird> haha, what's happening
22:06:28 <Sgeo> I just fixed the violence genome, the new, untiring Ms. Violence is about to be born
22:06:56 <kerlo> Well, I said "kind of".
22:08:14 <Sgeo> Ok, so adults aren't as fragile as children
22:08:31 <Sgeo> Even stupid adults trying to do the murderer
22:08:35 <GregorR> $ /usr/local/bin/dockingstation
22:08:45 <Sgeo> GregorR, there's some patch for that
22:09:16 <Sgeo> try http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff (no guarantees)
22:09:45 <Sgeo> ...and I somehow forgot that the superbreeders were immortals
22:09:47 -!- jix has quit ("PRYTA!").
22:10:46 <Sgeo> That's it, I had to kill them all
22:11:03 <Sgeo> I'm going to send the violent norns to RANDOM PEOPLE!
22:11:14 <ehird> " # Is the awk/ls magic portable? "
22:11:52 <Sgeo> GregorR, is it working
22:12:42 <M0ny> norns ? what does it mean ?
22:13:08 <Sgeo> GregorR, make an account
22:15:50 <Sgeo> ROFL at the fighting match
22:16:17 <Sgeo> They like eachother
22:16:40 <Sgeo> The girls are fighting the girls and the guys are fighting the guys
22:18:35 <Sgeo> The astro girl's dead
22:19:23 <Sgeo> This one is watching over the girl's corpse. Probably trying to kill it
22:20:23 <Sgeo> Should I feel guilty about this?
22:21:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:21:06 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:23:33 <ehird> Sgeo: Are they alive?
22:23:57 <Sgeo> The norns that I sent to other random people, who don't realize their nature? Yes, when I sent them
22:24:19 <ehird> 22:20 Sgeo: Should I feel guilty about this?
22:24:35 <ehird> You shouldn't feel guilty about wrongdoing to things that aren't alive or valuable :-P
22:24:54 <Sgeo> But it could hurt the norns that others care about
22:25:00 <Sgeo> I don't care about them, but others might
22:25:13 <kerlo> Linux's market share isn't valuable! /me reboots into Windows.
22:29:03 <ehird> Sgeo: that's their problem.
22:36:48 <kerlo> It's not exactly a competitive game.
22:37:57 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:45:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:46:20 -!- iano has joined.
22:49:45 <GregorR> Sgeo: I already did make an account.
22:50:01 <Sgeo> And you can't connect?
22:50:19 <Sgeo> Try renaming server.cfg in the directory storing DS
22:50:25 <Sgeo> Then restarting DS
22:51:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:51:31 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:07:51 <GregorR> Sgeo: Thanks for the obscenely violent Norn :P
23:08:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:10:47 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
23:10:59 <Sgeo> GregorR, you received a norn from me?
23:12:03 <GregorR> Oh, I received a Norn from somebody, with you as the original breeder.
23:12:09 <GregorR> And it killed all my Norns.
23:12:29 <Sgeo> "You should stop warping that norn around. It's sick, and it hits other norns compulsively. Also you have seriously screwed up its DNA. It's a ridiculously fast-ager."
23:13:14 -!- coppro has joined.
23:13:33 <ehird> Sgeo: Do they not know you did it intentionally? :P
23:13:40 <ehird> Sgeo: Spread around the uberbreeder.
23:14:04 <Sgeo> I think the child of an uberbreeder and a normal norn might be deformed
23:14:20 <Sgeo> Well, not visibly deformed
23:14:32 <Sgeo> But might, say, be completely unable to do anything
23:14:41 <Sgeo> Or might be part immortal, and part suspectible
23:14:51 <Sgeo> Also, it's not quite the best breedability yet
23:15:22 <Sgeo> I want to improve the fertility first
23:15:53 <Sgeo> "Horny" is really the wrong word. They're not horny, they just compulsively do it
23:16:55 <pikhq> What game you guys playing?
23:17:03 <ehird> pikhq: Sgeo's breeding mutant Norms in Creatures.
23:17:07 <ehird> Well, engineering.
23:17:21 * pikhq has always wanted to try that game...
23:18:30 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:19:35 * Sgeo does stuff that should increase fertility
23:20:07 * pikhq discovers that it appears to be gratis
23:20:10 <GregorR> Sgeo: How do you send a Norn through the portal?
23:20:51 <Sgeo> Put it in containment, config the Containment Chamber, click the face of the norn in the bar above the CC, and clikc the green checkmark
23:21:00 <Sgeo> Or make a portal: There's a portal creator in that room
23:21:01 -!- iano has quit.
23:21:20 <GregorR> I was using the portal creator, but I couldn't figure it out >_>
23:22:05 <Sgeo> Ok, this should be hyper breeding
23:22:14 <Sgeo> Actually, I should make the female's pregnancy go quicker
23:30:37 <Sgeo> so far, it still isn't um.. what's the equivelentof birth, but for eggs?
23:31:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:31:10 <Sgeo> Did she just give birth after I killed her?
23:31:32 <Sgeo> ^^calculated to have maximum disturbing effect on oerjan
23:32:41 <oerjan> although that may be because i had already changed to logreading, and so saw the preceding part immediately
23:38:02 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
23:38:15 <Sgeo> kisspop, dangit
23:40:40 <GregorR> Well, I'm bored with not effing up my Norns :P
23:40:57 <ehird> GregorR: Learn CAOS!~
23:41:07 <ehird> All commands are 4 alphanumerics long
23:41:12 <ehird> So they fit into a 32-bit word
23:41:14 -!- jix has joined.
23:41:14 <ehird> So they have a lookup table
23:41:22 <ehird> And also they have a goto you can return from instead of functions.
23:41:34 <Sgeo> ehird, this isn't CAOS that I'm doing
23:41:37 <ehird> It is a torturous language to torture Norms.
23:41:41 <Sgeo> This is the Genetics Kit
23:41:43 <ehird> Sgeo: Yeah, but CAOS is easier :P
23:42:04 <Sgeo> GregorR, Ctrl-Shift-C
23:42:16 <oerjan> <kerlo> In Spanish, "disc" + "ette" would be "disquette". But "ette" isn't a Spanish suffix.
23:42:29 <oerjan> i suspect it's from french, and does it the same way
23:42:50 <Sgeo> enum 4 0 0 sway writ targ 0 1 0 2 0 3 0 4 next
23:42:58 <Sgeo> Check the amount of pain they're in
23:45:31 <Sgeo> Ultrabreeders, take 1 million
23:47:31 <Sgeo> Ah, the sound of continuous sex
23:48:11 <Sgeo> The lovers need to be separated in order for the egg to be laid :(
23:48:33 <ehird> 23:47 Sgeo: Ah, the sound of continuous sex
23:48:39 <ehird> GregorR: there's an out of context thingy for you
23:52:32 <GregorR> My impression of bash.org:
23:53:16 <ehird> <tomfoolery> there's a small fire burning in my room
23:53:17 <ehird> <beretta> lemme guess im supposed to act suprised that you're telling us and not making any attempt to extinguish it, so i can submit it to bash where it will join the ranks of the other "SOMETHING CATOSTROPHIC HAPPENED SO I CAME TO TELL YOU GUYS ON IRC FIRST INSTEAD OF ATTEMPTING TO DEFUSE THE HOSTILE SITUATION" quotes that are grossly abundant, similar, and overrated. and despite a new one is submitted each week and only the location of the fire is alt
23:53:22 <ehird> ered, loyal viewers firmly believe it is a unique and hilarious quotation, pledging support in the form of unneccesary votes
23:53:47 <ehird> Note that there's at least another digit on quotes nowadays.
23:53:50 <ehird> People just don't get the hint :P
23:57:25 <Sgeo> I think something's broken
00:04:39 <oerjan> <satan> oh no, my room stopped burning. now there's ice on the walls.
00:05:59 <oerjan> (not an actual quote btw)
00:06:52 <oerjan> although that would be a subverted trope, i guess by your explanation this is already at undead horse stage
00:08:52 <ehird> Another thing that basically sums up bash:
00:08:53 <ehird> < robT> Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant
00:08:54 <ehird> < bawss> Right click.
00:08:59 <ehird> (one of the 100 top rated quotes)
00:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:14:01 <ehird> First my middle clicks don't work sometimes, now my left clicks.
00:14:10 <ehird> This cheapo mouse has a ~2 year shelf life.
00:14:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
00:16:25 <pikhq> Maybe when I upgrade stuff, I should get a new mouse.
00:16:35 <pikhq> It's a bit... Old.
00:17:22 <pikhq> I think it's from my first Linux box, which was old 7 years ago.
00:17:54 <ehird> I'm pretty much throwing out everything w/ my new box, since I don't really have much attachment to anything. It's just an imac+apple kb+crap mouse
00:19:11 <pikhq> I've got an absurdly old CD burner that I plan to keep, since I'm too cheap to bother upgrading that.
00:20:25 <pikhq> I have a DVD-ROM drive.
00:20:26 <ehird> I'm probably going to nab some hw from this iMac for safekeeping...
00:20:38 <pikhq> My CD burner does CD-Rs at 12x and CD-RWs at 4x.
00:20:42 <ehird> e.g., there's 2.5gb of ddr2 ram in here.
00:20:48 <ehird> Could be useful somewhere.
00:20:57 <ehird> pikhq: Not even a dvd burner? :P
00:21:14 <pikhq> Say, is there a typing test that does *not* involve trying to transcribe something?
00:21:26 * pikhq notes that he is at his slowest when trying to copy text
00:21:35 <pikhq> ehird: Not even a DVD burner.
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00:45:30 <GregorR> What idiot thought the new food pyramid was a good idea?
00:45:44 <ehird> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/camerahouse.jpg this is meant to be photoshopped-looking can someone please explain
00:46:20 <GregorR> Anybody over five can draw the old one. The new one is like "You may eat 0.05 radians of oils"
00:48:30 <ehird> pikhq: is that re: my image or GregorR
00:48:35 <ehird> i cannot figure out the image
00:48:55 <GregorR> I can't see anything photoshoppish in that image
00:49:19 * pikhq wonders what the fuck the USDA was thinking with "MyPyramid".
00:50:26 <pikhq> Also, they've got the proportions all wrong. You need to eat at least 0.5 radians of caffeine-bearing beverages
00:51:13 <GregorR> pikhq: It's actually a circle, the normally-displayed "pyramid" section is actually like a pie slice of that, the remainder is caffeine.
00:51:32 <pikhq> That's more sensible.
00:52:25 <pikhq> Apparently, the USDA thinks that pyramid is simpler than the previous design.
00:52:39 <GregorR> That's because the remainder of their circle is pot.
00:54:30 <GregorR> It's part of a balanced diet.
00:55:13 <ehird> GregorR: What about moxie?
00:55:21 <ehird> Is the remainder actually moxie+pot
00:55:45 <GregorR> That is too perfect to be considered part of the circle. It is above the circle.
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01:03:04 <pikhq> It is in fact the sphere.
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01:42:09 <oklofok> <ais523_> is it O(n!), or worse? <<< it's (n^2)!
01:43:01 <oklofok> i have no idea about verysort, but it's much too fast to be n!.
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02:43:22 <oklofok> Gracenotes: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316313563.txt
02:43:42 <oklofok> just something i hacked up after a night without sleep.
02:44:17 <Gracenotes> ah, sleepless nights :D yeah. how does it perform?
02:44:44 <oklofok> an answer to you, and a correction to what i said to ais earlier
02:44:54 <oklofok> it is at least exponential
02:45:06 <oklofok> because you explicitly create all the possible orders.
02:46:01 <oklofok> except that both are slow, bogosort is much closer to bubblesort than this one
02:46:15 <Gracenotes> well, randomly picking an order vs. generating all of them..
02:46:30 <oklofok> oh right bogosort, i was thinking bozosort.
02:46:58 <oklofok> bogosort is somewhat similar, except the generate all permutations part isn't the pont
02:47:58 <oklofok> you randomly take two permutations of the list, and make them fight, which means picking a random pair of adjacent elements from both, A wins B if A's pair is in order, and B's is not
02:48:39 <oklofok> this part is fairly fast, and it's probably polynomial on n!, which lead me astray earlier
02:49:07 <Gracenotes> hm. Although... another alternative might be to start with a string for each letter, then continue building the permutation only if it's in order, until you reach something the length of the string
02:49:22 <Gracenotes> huh. this might require a bit of book-keeping.
02:49:59 <oklofok> are we sorting lists of letters?
02:50:38 <Gracenotes> this is an entirely different idea. sort of.
02:51:10 <oklofok> well. that's just depth-first search :P
02:51:38 <Gracenotes> if you have [2, 1, 3], start with [1], [2], and [3]. All sorted strings of length 2, from those: [1, 3], [1, 2] and [2, 3]
02:51:54 <Gracenotes> and from those, only [1, 2, 3] survives
02:52:13 <Gracenotes> hm. the interesting thing is... there is a lot of shared work here.
02:52:23 <Gracenotes> but yeah, I see that's not what you're doing
02:53:05 <Gracenotes> wait, it is actually O(n^n). unless you share work of course.
02:53:28 <Gracenotes> but it's not quite that amount, because many branches are eliminated early
02:53:56 <Gracenotes> but, yes. so how many iterations did your algorithm take for various input sizes?
02:54:40 <oklofok> incrediblysort never sorts a list of size 4
02:56:26 <oklofok> well theta (minimum possible) is n!, but the probability of ever getting it sorted is pretty much 9
02:57:06 <pikhq> I'm still fond of quantum bogosort.
02:57:33 <Gracenotes> unfortunately quantum bogosort would probably have the same time as regular bogosort
02:57:50 <pikhq> Allow me to describe the algorithm.
02:58:10 <pikhq> Randomise the list (thereby creating a universe for every permutation of the list).
02:58:19 <pikhq> If the list is not sorted, destroy the universe.
02:58:32 <Gracenotes> explain, in detail, your process for universe selection.
02:58:52 <pikhq> We don't. Multiple worlds theory.
03:00:08 <Gracenotes> but such a check requires observation, and if it turns out the list is not sorted, you should probably give up
03:00:40 <Gracenotes> destroying the universe won't make the one universe where the list *is* sorted any more accessible
03:01:01 <oklofok> Gracenotes: if you don't understand the theorem, just let it go, it's not worth thinking about anyway.
03:01:24 <oklofok> you're completely misunderstanding the idea (read: joke)
03:01:44 <Gracenotes> okay, and even so, you can't select the particular universe where the list is sorted >:(
03:01:53 <pikhq> Gracenotes, all such universes exist simultaneously.
03:02:01 <Gracenotes> of course I get it's a joke, but I don't think it's that funny...
03:02:13 <pikhq> By destroying the universes that don't have a sorted list, you ensure the existing universes have a sorted list.
03:02:58 <Gracenotes> although, the existing universes have a sorted list whether or not you destroy the other ones :)
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03:03:05 <pikhq> Or, in other words: o <-- the joke v-- You
03:03:48 <Gracenotes> excuse me for killing it. I feel no remorse...
03:03:55 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: rubbish
03:04:04 <pikhq> Feel remorse! In the form of pain!
03:04:50 * pikhq wishes urxvt would, y'know, *switch fonts* for non-ASCII characters
03:05:35 <oerjan> oklofok: so does your face!
03:05:38 <pikhq> My client is capable of rendering those characters.
03:05:42 <pikhq> However, it refuses to.
03:05:57 <oklofok> oerjan: well your face does your mum
03:06:26 <oklofok> or at least that's what *i* wish
03:07:20 <oerjan> that glacolitic spidery ha is quite a character
03:07:41 <Gracenotes> I mean, I did implement a quantum simulator after all...
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03:08:32 <fungot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...too much output!
03:08:55 <oklofok> oerjan: that's one blah too many
03:09:14 <Gracenotes> oh noes. I think my feet are turning into hobbit feet! *looks at hair*
03:09:31 <Gracenotes> of course, I am 6 feet tall, so I don't think it's that likely
03:09:38 <oerjan> oklofok: rubbish, they form a perfect rectangle
03:10:11 <oerjan> admittedly the 13 might be bad luck
03:10:20 <oklofok> Gracenotes: what's that in human units?
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03:10:42 <oklofok> oerjan: i meant the infinite amount of blahäs.
03:10:43 <Gracenotes> I use "foot" as a human unit, personally
03:11:11 <oklofok> Gracenotes: no i think you just used it was relevant to the joke, because feet aren't in use anymore
03:11:14 <oerjan> oklofok: ic. well then it is also aleph-zero blahs too many
03:11:56 <oklofok> i should really move to hex, so i could say the same for base 10
03:12:08 <Gracenotes> oklofok: I am personally a fan of metric adoption. but I find most people on the internet don't use it on English IRC networks
03:12:09 <oerjan> oklofok: feet aren't in use anymore? this explains the obesity epidemic
03:12:46 <Gracenotes> at least it's better than "stone" as a unit of weight
03:12:49 <pikhq> oklofok: Approximately 3 metres.
03:13:25 <pikhq> 3 is a bit... Tall.
03:13:55 <oklofok> Gracenotes: i'm finnish, therefore it's all i know :)
03:14:15 <pikhq> oklofok: Better than being American.
03:14:17 <Gracenotes> mm. metric still is a pretty arbitrary system
03:14:21 <pikhq> Most Americans only know American units.
03:14:34 <Gracenotes> but at least it's a bit more consistent
03:14:36 <oklofok> well i do *know* how much a foot is.
03:14:50 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Metric is more sensible only in that it's consistent.
03:15:02 <Gracenotes> for people who grow up in societies that use base 10 number systems
03:15:08 <oklofok> i had other reasons for asking.
03:15:15 <pikhq> Which is a vast improvement over imperial units.
03:15:35 <Gracenotes> I will clandestinely teach my children to use the metric system! mwahaha
03:15:48 <oklofok> base 10 is not really inherent to SI
03:16:13 * pikhq keeps in mind not to be on IRC when at dad's house
03:16:31 <pikhq> My dad is about as anti-homosexual as they come.
03:16:47 <oklofok> pikhq: Gracenotes is not the only gay on this channel, in case you haven't noticed
03:16:57 <Gracenotes> it's okay. I won't hack your computer and email him links to lemonparty
03:16:59 <pikhq> oklofok: I actually didn't.
03:17:15 <pikhq> Largely because I don't give a flying fuck.
03:17:52 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: *That*, however, is disturbing.
03:18:05 <oklofok> pikhq: right, it's just some are a bit hard not to notice (psygnisfive), but i guess you don't read absolutely everything that happens here.
03:18:45 <oklofok> (maybe hard to remember, in case you don't care)
03:18:48 <pikhq> And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;)
03:18:58 <oerjan> Gracenotes: rule 34 overrules that rule, surely
03:19:16 <oklofok> depends on shock sites, many are just clips from fetish porn, and not even the interesting parts.
03:19:20 <pikhq> oerjan: Rule 34 states that there is porn of it, it does *not* state that the porn actually has an audience.
03:20:01 <pikhq> Of course, most of the porn without an audience is not for a shock site...
03:20:09 <pikhq> It's merely bad porn.
03:20:18 <oklofok> pikhq: And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) <<< i tend to consider every detail about irc people important, including what holes they prefer.
03:20:20 <bsmntbombdood> and rules one and two demonstrate that you are all posers
03:20:50 <pikhq> oklofok: That's quite disturbing.
03:21:04 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: wait, what are those?
03:21:14 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: 4chan is the asshole of the Internet. ;)
03:47:48 <oerjan> LATTIFY A CONSERVATION
03:48:34 <pikhq> RATIFY A CONVERSATION
03:49:26 <oerjan> NATIONAL IFFY RAT CONVICT
03:55:13 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i thought we were finished with the sex talk for a while
04:01:44 <pikhq> ELECTRONS ARE BETTER THOUGH.
04:06:53 <pikhq> You're a Haskelsexual!
04:07:15 <pikhq> Don't you know that God Hates Haskells?
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04:08:42 <Gracenotes> We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it!
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04:08:46 <Gracenotes> We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it!
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04:30:34 <oerjan> nää, ä liöö y nähööltään viellysnäämmin
04:31:40 <oklofok> oerjan: you do a better fake finnish than psygnisfive :P
04:31:40 <oerjan> hm ääliö actually is a word
04:32:19 <pikhq> Na... Nananana Katamari Damashii...
04:32:37 <oklofok> i don't see ä an ö right, so had to take a guess which of those weird things means which
04:32:57 <oerjan> nope, the other one :D
04:33:35 <oerjan> so clearly if you have so much ööliä that you can't read properly, you get ääliö
04:35:24 <oerjan> you mean they actually told you the truth? what a stupid use of a foreign expletitive
04:35:42 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood_: no no when you swap the umlauted chars.
04:36:17 <oerjan> oklofok: erm you guessed wrong, incidentally
04:37:17 <oerjan> oh i misunderstood you
04:37:55 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: what an ääliö, have you had too much ööliä?
04:37:55 <oklofok> the same four, but probably not as well as i used to :<
04:38:25 <oklofok> some lojban too ofc, and starting latin next fall
04:39:46 <oklofok> well i know some swedish and german
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04:52:58 <bsmntbombdood_> some guy was gonna come in here and talk finnish to you
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10:54:03 <fizzie> (Time for some hardware upgrades.)
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14:23:43 <asiekierka> also ACK'd Oerjan's changes to dead64, just need to upload them
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15:08:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, tested Deewiant's dobela (sp?) interpreter yet
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15:39:23 <asiekierka> "dead64" or DEADFISH 64 is my interpreter of Deadfish made in C64 Basic
15:39:38 <asiekierka> The "light" version is on the esolang wiki
15:39:49 <asiekierka> and in external links is the version with a subset of Deadfish~
15:40:01 <asiekierka> added some more stuff to it by now and fixed it more than the esolang wiki version
15:40:43 <asiekierka> v2 has the behavior mostly fixed (thanks to Oerjan) and it's more optimized and smaller than v1
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15:56:31 <asiekierka> v3 has some statistics, help and another way to end a program (interactively)
15:56:36 <asiekierka> I may write a non-interactive version though
15:57:07 <asiekierka> which would probably support the stuffs that an interactive version can't
15:57:15 <asiekierka> and may be the first interpreter of Deadfish~
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16:33:51 <asiekierka> because it worked by now, loading will probably be worse though :(
16:34:39 <pikhq> The appropriate response is ACK.
16:34:49 <pikhq> Read some RFCs, man!
16:35:05 <pikhq> At least read the TCP RFC.
16:35:49 <GregorR> pikhq: The appropriate response is SYN/ACK :P
16:36:03 <pikhq> GregorR: Oh. You're right.
16:36:43 <GregorR> (GAWD I'M SO F***ING FUNNY)
16:44:58 <asiekierka> oh god, DEADFISH 64 is already a riding mess on wheels
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16:58:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm going to test that dobela thingy
16:58:33 <AnMaster> what was the spelling of it now again
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [Nr] Name Type Addr Off Size ES Flags Lk Inf Al
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 0] NULL 0000000000000000 00000000 00000000 0 0 0 0
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 1] SNST STRTAB 0000000000000000 00000138 0000000e 0 0 0 1
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 2] dobelx64 PROGBITS 0000000000000146 00000146 000010f7 0 WAX 0 0 8
17:00:06 <AnMaster> usually the seconds are like .text .data .rodata or whatever
17:00:35 <Deewiant> I know what GCC calls them; I have no obligation to call them that.
17:00:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought that was standard
17:00:59 <Deewiant> It is, fairly, but the names are completely irrelevant.
17:01:03 <AnMaster> also what do the different sections contain there
17:01:21 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Do (like in don't) - Bee - Lah
17:01:39 <asiekierka> also, I finished loading/saving in Deadfish 64
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17:01:44 <asiekierka> so it supports the non-interactive mode
17:02:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my system complains about writable stack in it
17:02:13 <Deewiant> It contains self-modifying code.
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17:22:07 <asiekierka> Augh, I can't implement {} with my design
17:23:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you represent the playfield?
17:23:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it size limited??
17:23:34 <Deewiant> Yes, it's allocated before any execution.
17:23:54 <Deewiant> DOBELA programs can't grow, so that's fine.
17:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they can't? Huh. That's very odd
17:24:24 <Deewiant> Only dots can travel outside the initial bounds, and dots without commands can't do anything.
17:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you discard them then?
17:25:54 <Deewiant> C doesn't wraparound at every } either.
17:26:07 <asiekierka> AnMaster: If I ever do a redesign it won't be in C64 BASIC
17:26:30 <Deewiant> It'd not be very useful but it could.
17:27:34 <AnMaster> would mean you needed goto a lot
17:27:51 <Deewiant> No, you just need to write "return" explicitly.
17:28:03 <AnMaster> if (blah) { code here; goto afterif; } afterif: morecode; ...
17:28:30 <Deewiant> For some reason I was thinking of only functions and loops.
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17:29:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, { ... } would be same as the legacy-C while(true) { ... }
17:29:07 <Deewiant> For those, the thing to do is "if (blah) { code here; something that makes blah false }"
17:29:33 <ehird> returning from a function jumps to its }
17:29:40 <ehird> therefore, return; doesn't help
17:29:43 <ehird> it just restarts the function
17:29:49 <ehird> ... tail recursion!
17:30:06 <Deewiant> I don't see return working like that
17:30:15 <AnMaster> you would need to longjump out of every function
17:30:30 <Deewiant> I suppose you can, although you need to explain where the return value goes
17:30:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, falling off the end of a function into } does the same as what return; does
17:30:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in a global variable?
17:30:48 <Deewiant> return; yes, but return 0; not.
17:30:49 <ehird> and since {} wrapping is our main paradigm, return jumping to } instead of vise-versa is the best choice
17:30:57 <ehird> also, } is just return garbage; :-P
17:31:06 <Deewiant> That's implementation-dependant.
17:31:29 <ehird> void foo() { printf("hi\n"); }
17:31:36 <ehird> that doesn't abort()
17:33:05 <asiekierka> omg, V1 was 426 bytes, V2 was 390 bytes, V3 was 1071 bytes and V4 is 2207 bytes
17:33:12 <asiekierka> GOD WHAT HAS THIS WORLD GONE TO!? TT__TT
17:33:53 <asiekierka> If I ever make V5, it will either be in Assembler or a minor update
17:34:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, rewrite it in C64 asm yeah
17:34:16 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Later. *sigh* I'm already tired working on this mess
17:34:50 <asiekierka> (There are programs to do so, but... just don't. It has been... "sqrt(hacked)".)
17:34:58 <AnMaster> it's basic, why would I look at the source...
17:35:12 <asiekierka> I'm just telling you to not because it has GOTOs on top of other GOTOs
17:37:44 <asiekierka> Basically. V2 = the C64 BASIC source in the Deadfish article + some other miscellany code
17:44:43 <asiekierka> asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt (The problem is it was the same piece of code being hacked over and over)
17:45:24 <asiekierka> I will make a "lite" version though, which just cuts out the source of the extra features
17:46:55 <asiekierka> And i DO know it's possible to clean it up a bit
17:48:37 <ehird> asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt is empty.
17:49:19 <GregorR> ehird: That's just how easy it is to implement Deadfish.
17:50:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:52:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC today was "groan, oh my"
17:52:57 <asiekierka> thanks for fixing my C64 implementation
17:53:30 <asiekierka> and went as far as to add loading/saving
17:53:44 <oerjan> i fixed the boundary checks but i didn't make the prompting entirely compatible
17:54:04 <oerjan> many other interpreters don't follow that slavishly
17:54:10 <asiekierka> oerjan: Also, AFAIK, you forgot to fix i, i, s, s, s
17:54:12 <oerjan> the >> before each command
17:55:15 <oerjan> every time it hits 256 regardless of reason, from above or below, it's reset
17:55:48 <oerjan> btw the C interpreter is the standard
17:56:07 <ehird> "It's more likely because those that write theorem provers want to be able to verify parts of the theorem provers implementation themselves within in a theorem prover."
17:56:21 <ehird> ;; Xzibit theorem prover
17:56:39 <asiekierka> I think I did read somewhere that "the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared"
17:56:54 <ehird> asiekierka: that's valid, sort of
17:56:59 <ehird> it just means you can go over 255 with squaring
17:57:00 <oerjan> asiekierka: well that means that you cannot escape the range without squaring
17:57:22 <oerjan> but once you've square _beyond_ 256 things go haywire
17:57:35 <oerjan> asiekierka: you need to be more clever to escape
17:58:04 <oerjan> (and is probably the minimal way to escape
17:58:28 <oerjan> (as in, escaping _through_ the minimal value)
17:58:51 <oerjan> yeah, something like that, and when you decrement to 256 it becomes instantly 0
17:58:59 <asiekierka> Citing the author of Deadfish from the Deadfish~ article
17:59:00 <asiekierka> Like its predecessor, the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared!
17:59:45 <asiekierka> "Predecessor" refers to Deadfish original
17:59:47 <oerjan> asiekierka: it should be noted that many [weasel word] suspect the author did not originally know how to make it do what he want
18:00:23 <asiekierka> Do you refer to the C implementation or to the idea
18:00:26 <oerjan> so in essence all the rest of us took the joke of running with translating a broken program faithfully
18:01:01 <oerjan> except i think the Ruby and ZiziQue interpreters don't, and maybe some of the ones i cannot read
18:01:06 <asiekierka> I think I will make V5 in BASIC which can run in both "compatibility mode" and "rightful" mode
18:01:16 <oerjan> (i don't know ruby enough to try to correct it)
18:01:44 <asiekierka> While I want to have a correct implementation, too
18:01:45 <oerjan> well it would be much closer with my changes from yesterday
18:02:46 <asiekierka> Also, where the hell can I find out anything about ZiZiQue
18:04:00 <AnMaster> so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it?
18:04:45 <oerjan> i don't know about ZiziQue
18:06:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: a language referenced among the Deadfish examples on the wiki
18:06:55 <AnMaster> that is the only reference I can find to it when I google
18:07:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh it's that number again
18:07:05 <asiekierka> let's search who added the ZiZiQue interpretation
18:07:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes. But the wrong theme!
18:07:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: has happened before
18:08:05 <ehird> zizique was a lang that used to be on the wiki
18:08:12 <ehird> i guess it was deleted for not really being very esoteric
18:08:18 <oerjan> but this time it was rather forewarned
18:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you remember about it
18:08:30 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing much
18:08:41 <ehird> the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel
18:08:58 <ehird> maybe not that one
18:09:16 <ehird> zzo msut have learned it
18:09:19 <ehird> it is the language I was thinking of
18:09:21 <oerjan> <ehird> the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel <<< you're just messing with us, right?
18:09:47 <ehird> i distinctly recall it
18:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and no source outside the wiki?
18:10:26 <ehird> AnMaster: the page used to exist
18:10:29 <ehird> so an admin can recover it
18:10:35 <ehird> it was designed for making text adventures
18:10:37 <ehird> interactive fiction
18:10:46 <ehird> must be defunct now
18:11:07 <oerjan> oh so it was not zzo38's own language?
18:12:30 * oerjan fixes the C64 Deadfish for proper squaring behavior
18:13:25 -!- tombom has joined.
18:13:36 <GregorR> MUST ... FIND ... ZIZIQUE :P
18:13:45 <ehird> GregorR: Step 1. Become wiki admin
18:13:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, make it V6, would accelerate faster.
18:13:54 <ehird> I am become wiki admin, destroyer of worlds.
18:13:59 <asiekierka> AnMaster: V5 is planned to be in Assembler
18:14:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no no no, pull a slackware, skip to V7
18:14:37 <AnMaster> ehird, odd number of cylinders aren't common afaik hm.
18:14:42 <GregorR> ehird: I find it weird that normal users can't read old pages at all >_>
18:14:52 <ehird> GregorR: it's for reasons of national security
18:14:59 <ehird> also, because they're usually spam etc
18:15:11 <ehird> Huh, Factor's new C++ VM (well, Slava just added some C++ features to the C) isn't half bad. Nicest C++ code I've eve seen.
18:15:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that won't last for long
18:16:00 <ehird> he's pretty much finished the C++ transformation
18:16:07 <ehird> and he isn't using any features that cause a run-time penalty
18:16:17 <ehird> so it's basically fine
18:16:28 <oerjan> hm zizique was _not_ linked when zzo38 first included it in deadfish
18:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, you start with good intentions, and it might be nice and such even... But soon some messy C++ feature will slither in...
18:16:49 <ehird> AnMaster: this only applies if the programmer is a retard.
18:16:57 <AnMaster> it happened in every C project going C++ "but only with the non-messy bits" that I have seen
18:17:00 <ehird> by the same logic, Lisp is a bad language to use because the programmer will get tricksy.
18:17:12 <ehird> Fact is, if they get tricksy, they're a bad programmer.
18:17:48 <pikhq> This is why I suggest using Lightweight C++.
18:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you misunderstood me I think.
18:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I didn't
18:17:58 <pikhq> It *is* C++ without the really screwy features. ;)
18:18:30 <ehird> pikhq: it's also obscure, probably not maintained to well, and you could just use the parts of C++ it has in C++ and ignore the rest
18:18:45 <ehird> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png
18:18:49 <AnMaster> I'm saying that "Lightweight C++" is possible. Just that on any larger open source project that will sooner or later turn into messy C++. A few years at most before the mess start showing up.
18:18:49 <pikhq> ehird: It has somewhat different semantics.
18:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: lightweight c++ is a separate project.
18:19:10 <pikhq> Since it's mostly implemented as a preprocessor.
18:19:12 <ehird> and you're talking absolute bullshit
18:19:16 <pikhq> (very complex one, but still)
18:19:17 <ehird> you can only get bad code if you use bad features
18:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, oh thought it meant just C++ with less features. It was not easy to see that.
18:19:24 <ehird> you only use bad features if you're a bad programmer
18:19:38 <AnMaster> but sure if the implementation of C++ that you use lacks the bad stuff you can prevent it
18:19:39 <oerjan> wait what, _i_ made ZiziQue a link?
18:19:40 <GregorR> There are no bad features, only bad programmers.
18:19:42 <ehird> there is not some inherent property of s/gcc/g++/ that causes the code to start to decay into suckiness
18:19:49 <ehird> saying so is simply stupid
18:19:52 <pikhq> So it has slightly screwy name mangling.
18:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png <-- ugh. GCC specfic :P
18:20:55 <asiekierka> GregorR: What if I make a feature to instantly delete the BIOS and it only can be used in a WHILE loop?
18:20:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_AMD_5x86.jpg ← lol@printing designed for windows 95 on an actual cpu
18:21:27 <AnMaster> fixed non-cruft link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/KL_AMD_5x86.jpg
18:21:30 <GregorR> asiekierka: Somebody out there NEEDS that feature maaaaaaaaaaaaaan :P
18:21:45 <asiekierka> GregorR: Oh, and it can't be used by virus authors. Or hackers.
18:21:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: What about that is GCC-specific?
18:22:02 <GregorR> asiekierka: Those are bad programmers :P
18:22:09 <asiekierka> And to use it you need to run it on your own PC.
18:22:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is using it to put some functions in link once sections
18:23:05 <pikhq> That is such an ugly hack.
18:23:17 <ehird> Lightweight C++: C++ without the bad parts and with bad parts
18:23:17 <pikhq> Using the __section__ attribute...
18:23:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, worse than dynamic scope return thing in bash?
18:23:38 <pikhq> ehird: That's the hackishness of the generated code.
18:23:48 <AnMaster> so, any good naming suggestions for that project. I didn't like asiekierka's suggestion
18:24:07 <pikhq> It basically wants to be a GCC frontend, but does C code instead of RTL.
18:24:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it?
18:24:33 <ehird> AnMaster: thiscodeisboundtobehorriblescheme
18:25:02 <ehird> AnMaster: call it "Not PFUCK."
18:25:13 <ehird> ~/src/Not PFUCK..scm
18:25:26 <pikhq> And it is, in fact, not PFUCK.
18:25:28 <ehird> PFUCK is pikhq's brainfuck→c compiler written in PEBBLE
18:25:36 <ehird> pikhq didn't want you to call it PFUCK
18:25:47 <ehird> So you should call it "Not PFUCK.". Verbatim. :-P
18:25:47 <asiekierka> Did anyone make a BF-to-C compiler in BF
18:25:55 <AnMaster> that is a pun on S-expressions even
18:26:03 <pikhq> Scheme's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay?
18:26:04 <ehird> Hey, it's not my fault you're dirty.
18:26:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, S-expressions (but move - two forward) and then SFUCK
18:26:25 <ehird> PFUCK: PEBBLE Fucking Up Crappy Kode.
18:26:45 <pikhq> I wrote mine in PEBBLE instead, just because I was lazy....
18:26:55 <pikhq> (PEBBLE, of course, compiles to Brainfuck)
18:26:58 <AnMaster> so no one is going to say that pun was brilliant?
18:28:01 <ehird> i wish it was the 90s. and we had Pentiums. With MMX and 3DNow!.
18:28:28 <AnMaster> apart from the technicality that pentium never had 3dnow, why do you want that
18:28:28 <ehird> pentiums never had 3DNow!
18:28:40 <ehird> AnMaster: because everything was a lot simpler
18:28:54 <ehird> if you said "watercooling" to a computer user they'd think you meant filling the computer with tap water :-)
18:29:08 <ehird> I love !s in names.
18:29:17 <ehird> Protip: They're pronounced as the click.
18:29:27 <pikhq> In fact, AMD still *has* 3DNow; Intel never did. Whee.
18:29:29 <ehird> So 3DNow! is 3DNow<click>
18:29:43 <ehird> Comments about the impossibility of pronouncing that will be gleefully ignored.
18:29:57 <ehird> Wanna hear a joke?
18:30:03 <GregorR> WTFBBQ, ZiziQue isn't even in the DB dump
18:30:04 <AnMaster> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm
18:30:21 <asiekierka> GregorR: Someone didn't really want ZiziQue
18:30:36 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I64 is a rather interesting architecture.
18:31:00 <AnMaster> the real joke is of course that "Itanium" is hard to remember how to spell
18:31:01 <GregorR> 'taws ahead of its (and relevant compilers') time
18:31:16 <ehird> and it may have some good ideas, but all I've heard points to "slow, inefficient, not powerful enough, and ditching IA32 was stupid"
18:31:20 <ehird> which make perfect sense :P
18:31:24 <ehird> and Nehalem is easy to spell
18:31:26 <GregorR> And Itanium is Titanium minus 'T'
18:31:29 <asiekierka> 6502 is the best architecture IN TEH WORLDZ!!!111ONE
18:31:31 <ehird> easier if you're a native I guess
18:31:35 <ehird> asiekierka: 4004 bitch
18:31:50 <ehird> The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989.
18:31:56 <ehird> Intel did RISC chips? :-D
18:31:57 <GregorR> ehird: Well, the problem is that it had the potential to be ultrafast, but not with anything real compilers could make.
18:32:08 <GregorR> ehird: Intel did ARM for a while :P
18:32:15 <ehird> But this was custom
18:32:31 <GregorR> Damn, I really want to find ZiziQue now X-P
18:32:56 <ehird> The Pentium name is used for a current-generation processor even today.
18:32:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Dual-Core
18:33:18 <ehird> GregorR: Well, Pentium's never meant much.
18:33:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989.
18:33:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Intel did RISC chips? :-D
18:33:37 <ehird> Apart from "It's from Intel and you can put it in a desktop and it's based on IA32."
18:33:44 <AnMaster> strange, I read about this just a few days ago
18:33:57 <ehird> RISC: i860 · i960 · StrongARM · IXP1200 · XScale
18:34:21 <ehird> none of which they still make
18:34:25 <ehird> last one was sold in 2006
18:34:32 <ehird> The XScale, a microprocessor core, is Marvell's (formerly Intel's) implementation of the fifth generation of the ARM architecture, and consists of several distinct families: IXP, IXC, IOP, PXA and CE (see more below). Intel sold the PXA family to Marvell Technology Group in June 2006[1].
18:34:50 <AnMaster> Marvell, sounds like a network card?
18:34:54 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IXP1200 I assume this isn't still made
18:35:03 <GregorR> I seriously don't understand why Intel sold ARM.
18:35:04 <ehird> Marvell (NASDAQ: MRVL) is an American producer of storage, communications and consumer semiconductor products. Their products can be found in a range of applications:
18:35:05 <ehird> Consumer: Technologies include Wireless LAN, Voice over IP (VoIP), system controllers, power management, storage products and embedded CPUs.
18:35:07 <asiekierka> yup, sounds like a network card company
18:35:08 <ehird> Enterprise: Marvell produces silicon devices for network switching, routers and wireless networking. Marvell was the first to develop merchant Gigabit Ethernet switching products.
18:35:11 <ehird> Storage: Marvell designed the first Gigabit all-CMOS read channel, the first Gigabit-capable system-on-a-chip and the first Serial ATA interface. These products are found in both disk drive and network-attached storage systems.
18:35:14 <asiekierka> and I think I even had one from Marvell back then
18:35:15 <ehird> ARM isn't Intel's, GregorR
18:35:24 <GregorR> ehird: It effectively was for quite a while.
18:35:34 <ehird> The StrongARM family are faster versions of the existing ARM processors with a somewhat different instruction set. Clocked at 206MHz they can perform up to 235 MIPS (1.14 MIPS/MHz). They have limited software compatibility with the earlier ARM families due to their separate caches for data and instructions, which causes self-modifying code to fail.
18:35:37 <ehird> Harvard architechture :-D
18:35:55 <asiekierka> Why didn't anyone do Hello World! in Genome
18:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, err, x86_(32|64) CPUs have that too nowdays
18:36:33 <AnMaster> Harvard architechture for the caches I mean
18:36:37 <ehird> Yeah it's not actually a Harvard architecture
18:36:42 <ehird> It just looks like it at first sight
18:36:50 * pikhq notes that Intel still makes Itanium chips
18:37:05 <GregorR> pikhq: If they don't, who will? :P
18:37:16 <GregorR> pikhq: They are used for e.g. scientific computing.
18:37:20 <ehird> itanium is used in super computers and shit
18:37:21 <oerjan> GregorR: i am not quite convinced ehird remembers correctly that ZiziQue was ever on the wiki
18:37:31 <ehird> oerjan: If it wasn't, it definitely existed
18:37:31 <oerjan> i may have linked it by error
18:37:33 <AnMaster> difference is that x86 goes to great length to be compatible with previous versions. Thus it does support self modifying code by flushing the IL1 when the same part of memory is written to
18:37:34 <GregorR> oerjan: Idonno, I just found it interesting :P
18:37:35 <pikhq> IA64 is actually a decent architecture, amazingly enough. However, its x86_32 emulation *sucks*.
18:37:36 <ehird> and it was definitely discussed
18:37:42 <ehird> pikhq: it has none nowadays
18:37:44 <ehird> pikhq: software emulation
18:37:50 <ehird> pikhq: that is actually faster than the old hw one :^)
18:38:17 <GregorR> $ grep -i zizique * | wc -l
18:38:21 <GregorR> In logs not including today.
18:38:33 <ehird> just stfu, okay :P
18:38:41 <ehird> it may have been discussed on talk: pages
18:38:57 <GregorR> ehird: I grepped the DB dump, it's only in that one page.
18:39:13 <ehird> GregorR: Look. Just shut up.
18:39:25 <ehird> It was discussed, it had a site, it was for text adventures, and we knew about it.
18:39:27 <ehird> That's all I know.
18:39:47 <AnMaster> it is like HQ9+ but with D for "interpret rest of source as deadfish"
18:39:59 <fizzie> Hrm; I thought this NAS box I had ran on some sort of XScale thing, but /proc/cpuinfo says
18:40:00 <fizzie> Processor : ARM926EJ-Sid(wb) rev 0 (v5l)
18:40:14 <asiekierka> Deadfish~, Deadfish~(subset) or Deadfish
18:40:39 <pikhq> So, this IA-32 software emulation layer...
18:40:43 <ehird> fizzie: have you got a powerpc machine
18:40:48 <pikhq> Why don't Linux distros just ship with qemu?
18:40:58 <fizzie> ehird: Just the G4 iBook.
18:41:07 <ehird> fizzie: booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring
18:41:13 <ehird> pikhq: because it's slow as fuck
18:41:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is certainly some package for it I bet.
18:41:47 <AnMaster> but what has it got to do with this
18:41:54 <ehird> that's not what he said
18:42:24 <pikhq> The IA32 emulation layer is nonfree stuff... Which implies that Intel actually spent time and effort making it.
18:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, also what do you call bosch (sp?) if you call qemu "slow as fuck"
18:42:40 <pikhq> Rather than, say, modifying a few files from qemu.
18:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: *Bochs. Box. Ch as in Bach. Bochs.
18:42:53 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: And slow as fuck also.
18:43:01 <AnMaster> bochs: would get parking fine if it was a car
18:43:03 <ehird> pikhq: Because theirs is faster
18:43:09 <ehird> pikhq: Take, for instance, icc.
18:43:17 <ehird> Intel KNOW their architectures really well.
18:43:48 <pikhq> Fine; why didn't they do a decent-sized patch to qemu and get some good PR out of it?
18:44:07 <ehird> And why would they?
18:44:17 <ehird> It was probably easier to make it from scratch.
18:44:20 <ehird> I bet it differs heavily.
18:44:27 <ehird> For instance, it won't emulate hardware, will it?
18:44:37 <ehird> Just translate the CPU instructions as directly and efficiently as possible.
18:44:40 <pikhq> Qemu doesn't always.
18:44:43 <GregorR> *ahem Qemu user mode emulation came first*
18:44:55 <pikhq> Qemu has user mode emulation as a major feature. ;)
18:45:06 <GregorR> Qemu has user emulation as its ORIGINAL feature :P
18:45:55 <GregorR> (Incidentally, it's bitchin' fast in that mode)
18:45:57 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Well, whatever." <-- you always say something like that when you are proven wrong. :D
18:46:09 <ehird> No, that was "OK, I'm wrong, didn't know, whatever."
18:46:20 <ehird> What's wrong with saying that?
18:46:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly does "whatever" mean in this context.
18:46:32 <ehird> It means "whatever".
18:46:32 <AnMaster> not clear to me as a non-native speaker
18:46:38 <GregorR> AnMaster: In English, "whatever" means just about anything in just about any context X-P
18:46:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, and what exactly does it mean in this one
18:46:55 <ehird> In this context, it probably means "ok, doesn't really matter, I just didn't know"
18:47:11 <GregorR> Yeah, I agree with ehird on that, that's how I interpreted it.
18:47:19 <GregorR> Anyway, qemu's user emulation is actually pretty darn cool.
18:47:31 <GregorR> I have an ARM Debian chroot for "cross-compiling" :)
18:47:39 <GregorR> ehird: qemu-<your favorite system> <some binary>
18:47:52 <GregorR> ehird: You need the libraries installed to a path specifiable by -L, of course.
18:48:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D
18:48:14 <AnMaster> "doesn't really matter", as in the "discussion not being important", or "that the new info doesn't really change my argument"?
18:48:18 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Q.app/Contents/MacOS/mips-softmmu.app/Contents/MacOS] % ls
18:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: "Not a big deal".
18:48:38 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, AFAIK user emulation doesn't work on OS X :P
18:48:40 <pikhq> Ah, right. You've got OS X.
18:49:05 <pikhq> GregorR: It does; the DarWINE project did most of the work for that.
18:49:24 <GregorR> pikhq, ehird: Ah, OK, but it presumably only supports powerpc and x86 (maybe x86_64)
18:49:29 <ehird> pikhq: that's for ppc
18:49:33 <GregorR> Whereas on Linux it supports OMGLOTS
18:49:33 <AnMaster> DarWINE... what a horrible pun
18:49:46 <ehird> Old Darwine was just x86 emulation + WINE.
18:49:47 <GregorR> ehird: Well, it requires that the target support the same OS so it can directly translate syscalls :P
18:49:50 <ehird> Modern Darwine is just WINE ported over.
18:49:55 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D <-- IDGI
18:49:59 <ehird> I'm on an IA32/AMD64 machine.
18:50:11 <pikhq> Darwine was qemu userspace emulation + WINE.
18:50:31 <ehird> Oh no, not psygnisfive.
18:50:36 <pikhq> Thus why Darwine's work on qemu matters. :p
18:50:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: the D&Der's response fits
18:51:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: ur no' fu'y
18:51:08 <asiekierka> oerjan: Adding v5 with "COMPATIBILITY MODE" and "PROPER MODE"
18:51:23 <ehird> Man, mi'ing con'o'ans i' fu'.
18:52:34 <ehird> Nah, I 'on' 'in' 'o.
18:52:55 <ehird> Nah, I don't think so.
18:53:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you removed too much for it to be readable there
18:53:29 <ehird> I' no' my faul'. I 'an' 'elp i'.
18:53:30 <AnMaster> "an h"... That sounds so strange.
18:54:37 <ehird> I know some idiotic americans think it's not, but that's because you fail at pronunciation and life.
18:54:48 <psygnisfive> actually ehird its you who fail at pronunciation and life
18:55:03 <psygnisfive> the "an" allomorph of "a" is used before words that start with a vowel sound
18:55:22 <psygnisfive> the name for "h" beings with an /eI/ diphthong vowel
18:55:35 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how would you spell (no IPA stuff! Just normal letters.) the way the letter "h" is pronounced. "eigcht" seems a bit off.
18:55:52 <psygnisfive> "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe
18:56:08 <AnMaster> in Swedish it is said more like "hå".
18:56:21 <psygnisfive> tho english letters have no genuine conventional name spelling
18:56:33 <AnMaster> I always found the way that English pronounce the _letters_ "h" and "r" rather odd.
18:56:58 <asiekierka> Yay, V5 uploaded, with the Compatibility Mode (that's for you, oerjan)
18:56:59 <ehird> 'aitch' is a stupid way of saying h BECAUSE IT HAS NO H
18:57:22 <ehird> i pronounce trees.
18:57:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so say out loud all the letters of the alphabet!
18:57:43 <AnMaster> what did you do, if you didn't pronounce them.
18:57:57 <fizzie> "Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard. It is however standard in Hiberno-English[citation needed] --"; Hiberno-English sounds strange. For people who hibernate?
18:58:03 <psygnisfive> letters of alphabets are used to represent the pronunciation or words and sounds in a language
18:58:04 <AnMaster> you just admitted "<psygnisfive> "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe" above
18:58:15 <psygnisfive> you can pronounce a SOUND in a language, sure.
18:58:22 <ehird> Hiberno-English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:58:23 <ehird> Hiberno-English – also known as Anglo-Irish and Irish English – is English as spoken in Ireland, partly the result of the interaction of the English and ...
18:58:37 <psygnisfive> yes, anmaster, "aitch" is the spelling of the name for the letter "h"
18:58:41 <ehird> http://www.eamonn.com/2002/11/hibernoenglish.htm
18:59:07 <asiekierka> I wish there were drivers for RTL8168/8111 (PCI-E) for MS-DOS
18:59:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and that is what pronouncing the letter means to a non-language-nerd
18:59:21 <asiekierka> so I could run 64HDD on my PC and make a netcat clone for the C64
18:59:22 <fizzie> Why is it called that, though?
18:59:56 <psygnisfive> "aitch" is probably closely related to the italian "acca" for the same letter.
19:00:34 <ehird> The Gaelic phrase tar eis, which means "after", is used by Hiberno-English speakers to modify verbs to indicate that an activity has been completed recently. So, instead of using the standard English present perfect " We have just finished our dinner," Hiberno-English speakers opt for: "We're after finishing our dinner just now."
19:01:26 <AnMaster> a be se de e ef ge hå i ji kå ell em en o pe ku err ess te u ve eks y säta å ä ö
19:02:00 <psygnisfive> why is the english name for "r" weird to you?
19:02:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("ay bee cee dee ee eff gee aitch eye jay kay el em en oh pee queue are ess tee you vee double-you ecks why zed").
19:02:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that is ~"are". Which is rather different
19:02:31 <ehird> it's why and zee, dammit
19:02:34 <ehird> the rhyme only works that way
19:02:42 <ehird> but in the song we turn amerikan
19:03:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not if you pronounce "err" in English no
19:03:24 <psygnisfive> i mean, swedish r's are different, granted
19:03:43 <psygnisfive> but that's a fact about the consonant not the name of the letter
19:03:47 <AnMaster> that is a short e too. While are has a long a
19:04:20 <AnMaster> why did you escape that last /
19:04:56 <AnMaster> to me it looks like an escaped / from a sed expression :P
19:05:24 <psygnisfive> i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up
19:05:26 <Deewiant> How many IPA symbols are there?
19:05:49 <psygnisfive> ignoring the diacritics and modifiers i guess
19:05:51 <Deewiant> 7 distinct letters, 52 diacritics, and 4 prosody marks
19:06:07 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up <-- As long as it shows up in Dejavu I'm happy
19:06:21 <Deewiant> I think Dejavu has all of IPA but I'm not sure
19:06:27 <fizzie> The Unicode "IPA Extensions" page has 176 symbols.
19:07:06 <psygnisfive> i only count 32 diacritics on the IPA wiki page
19:07:08 <Deewiant> It probably includes composed forms
19:07:25 <psygnisfive> i guess if you include the ExtIPA additions
19:07:57 <AnMaster> on a totally unrelated line of thought. What exactly does the English "blowing a raspberry" (spelling?) mean?
19:08:32 <psygnisfive> purse your lips so airflow is slightly restricted
19:08:46 <pikhq> I'd encourage you to use IPA, but urxvt and I don't get along.
19:08:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, resulting in a s-like sound?
19:09:35 <AnMaster> is the tounge sticking out? How far?
19:09:53 <psygnisfive> tho i think in the context of /giving/ a raspberry its much tighter, enough so that it could be tickling when done against skin
19:10:07 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=blowing+a+raspberry&aq=f
19:10:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it sounds like a leaking tube with pressurised air...
19:11:02 <Deewiant> I know some IPA because I'm interested
19:11:21 <psygnisfive> i wish more people were smart enough to do that
19:11:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I assumed we both got it right :-P
19:11:51 <Deewiant> And yes, I wish people were as smart as me as well
19:11:55 <psygnisfive> i know so many people who cant make such trivial pieces of guesswork :(
19:12:33 <psygnisfive> a professor can state something emphatically, and then go on to make a minor mistake that is obviously just a typographical error
19:12:46 <psygnisfive> but the people get all flustered like "BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID ~"
19:13:09 <Deewiant> Then they make a big deal about it and are all confused and 10 minutes are lost
19:13:21 <ehird> jos difj sof jio eo ijojt oertj eoirjt ort joer tjoerij eojt oetj oON ON ON
19:13:33 <Deewiant> And I'm like FFS it should have been an 'a' instead of an 'e' and that's it
19:13:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: oadijasjuueu! drukkeuekńak!
19:14:11 <Deewiant> Doesn't sound at all Hungarian to me :-P
19:14:31 <pikhq> Soon he'll be speaking Afrikaans. ... With an American accent.
19:14:39 <psygnisfive> k, weird n's, and lots of e+u stuff feels hungarian to me
19:14:51 <Deewiant> K doesn't feel Hungarian to me
19:15:00 <Deewiant> Maybe it should, but it doesn't :-P
19:15:05 <pikhq> psygnisfive: No, it wouldn't.
19:15:29 <pikhq> Though it'd be somewhat close; Afrikaans *is* Germanic.
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19:15:42 <psygnisfive> afrikaans is a descendent of early modern dutch
19:16:21 * pikhq likes being contrary
19:16:45 <asiekierka> Anyone wants to see 9 lines of DEAD64V5's code?
19:17:14 <Deewiant> But couldn't remember the name
19:17:17 <psygnisfive> but nothing here looks remotely like nahuatl
19:17:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yecatuanłã.
19:17:33 -!- jix has joined.
19:17:37 <ehird> (that's a ~ not a ")
19:17:54 <asiekierka> is this an example of the messyness of DEAD64V5
19:18:07 <psygnisfive> or i imagine i do, if l~ is what i expect it to be.
19:18:18 <asiekierka> Give me random numbers from 1 to 230 and I'll show code for that line
19:18:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: Łā! Brokélõs!
19:18:35 <psygnisfive> now THAT could almost be welsh, were it not for orthography
19:18:36 <Deewiant> I've been meaning to train myself to be able to pronounce every sound in IPA but haven't got around to it
19:18:47 <ehird> Deewiant: sounds impossible
19:19:13 <Deewiant> ehird: Maybe, I don't think so
19:19:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: Vŏktük palél :-)
19:19:38 <ehird> wasn't meant to be volapük :P
19:19:41 <psygnisfive> deewiant: its hard to learn from the interwebs
19:19:49 <psygnisfive> i know ehird, but thats what came to mind :p
19:20:48 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Combination of IPA-capable dictionary + youtube goes a long way, methinks :-)
19:20:49 <psygnisfive> i figure we have programming versions of SVO languages
19:21:32 <ehird> SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural.
19:21:50 <ehird> SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural/functional.
19:21:54 <Deewiant> More canonically functional, IMO.
19:22:00 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> i wish more people were smart enough to do that <-- Smart? So never having heard the word "sampa" before means someone is stupid?
19:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not what he said
19:22:13 <ehird> maybe you should learn to read, AnMaster
19:22:14 <Deewiant> So what, are we missing OSV OVS VOS?
19:22:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it seemed to be what he said.
19:22:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats! I bestow unto you the "cannot read or comprehend" award, then.
19:22:40 <ehird> Deewiant: I think S and O are interchangable.
19:22:41 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Do we have natural languages like that?
19:22:44 <ehird> It's down to the programmer, mostly.
19:22:51 <ehird> Although... OVS would be weird.
19:23:02 <ehird> That's just not good for a programming language.
19:23:07 <ehird> Even if it can be made to work naturally.
19:23:16 <psygnisfive> the use of Subjects is mostly applicable in OO style tho
19:23:18 <ehird> It doesn't reflect the operations performed at all.
19:23:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Well sure.
19:24:02 <ehird> (oranges,hungrily)eat.sam
19:24:06 <ehird> Oranges hungrily eat Sam.
19:24:25 <psygnisfive> and since its horrible for a programming language
19:24:30 <pikhq> Wasn't Klingon OVS?
19:24:43 <psygnisfive> the intention was to make it as un-english like as possible
19:25:11 <psygnisfive> interestingly, the notion of Object and Subject are, I would say, completely meaningless
19:25:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: agreed
19:25:17 <pikhq> psygnisfive: The intention was to make it as alien as possible, rather. Slight difference.
19:25:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: It's very single dispatch.
19:25:26 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Yeah, that's what ehird was going on about earlier
19:25:51 <psygnisfive> its just that in the underlying semantics theres no difference
19:26:12 <psygnisfive> normally people think of sentences as being Subject-Predicate
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19:26:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: Lojban is interesting here. It thinks directly in predicates.
19:26:49 * pikhq wants VSO, OSV, and: V, S, and O languages
19:26:55 <psygnisfive> because in formal semantics, P can be a lambda
19:27:12 <psygnisfive> which means it can be like multi-arg functions
19:27:20 <ehird> VSO... Eat Sam oranges.
19:27:28 <ehird> OSV... oranges Sam eat.
19:27:33 <ehird> Functional, concatenative.
19:28:09 <psygnisfive> we need an OO language with a weird ordering like this
19:28:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: Heh. So a strong type system + language is logic (curry-howard), and linguistics is programming (you).
19:28:17 <ehird> Therefore, linguistics is logic.
19:28:27 <pikhq> I'd demand an SOV language, but there is one.
19:28:44 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, some of linguistics is very closely related to logic
19:28:59 <psygnisfive> Curry and Howard did their work FOR linguistic semantics, essentially
19:29:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yeah, but we have a whole trifecta of equivalences: Programming = logic = linguistics. :-)
19:29:03 <Deewiant> Actually, why did I even ask about natural languages, Finnish can do all of SOV SVO VSO VOS OSV OVS, with the non-Vxx ones probably being the most normal-sounding ones.
19:29:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:29:12 <ehird> Deewiant: so can russian
19:29:13 <pikhq> (Samu ha orenji wo taberu)
19:29:24 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
19:29:32 <pikhq> Deewiant: So can English.
19:30:03 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I type as though it were going into a Japanese IME.
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19:30:09 <ehird> Deewiant: "Hello", Sam says.
19:30:12 <pikhq> And yes, it's valid English, if little-used.
19:30:13 <ehird> "Hello", says Sam.
19:30:23 <ehird> Are the valid orderings.
19:30:31 <psygnisfive> ehird: literary use of "say" is very different actually
19:30:42 <ehird> But you can twist most thigns into that.
19:30:46 <ehird> It's just that say is the only one that feels natural.
19:30:51 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, you need the comma.
19:31:09 <Deewiant> I was just thinking that that's somewhat of a special case.
19:32:01 <psygnisfive> english, despite being a "fixed" word order language, is replete with transformations for changing word order to add pragmatic content
19:32:20 <pikhq> English used to not be as fixed in its word order.
19:32:27 <Deewiant> I still can't see "oranges Sam eats" as being very valid :-P
19:32:43 <pikhq> Middle English wasn't much of a fixed word order language, and Early Modern English wasn't, either.
19:32:52 <ehird> Deewiant: "Oranges Sam eats" is valid.
19:32:53 <psygnisfive> as in "ORANGES, sam eats, but not apples."
19:32:55 <ehird> It's just awkward.
19:33:07 <ehird> It's Oranges[tiny pause] Sam eats.
19:33:13 <ehird> And "sa" is deeper.
19:33:17 <pikhq> Deewiant: Normally, I'd stick a comma in there. "Oranges, Sam eats" makes it seem a bit more natural.
19:33:27 <ehird> pikhq: not standalone
19:33:29 <pikhq> But yes, it's a quite valid construction.
19:33:35 <psygnisfive> yes, again, as i said, the comma denotes prosody
19:33:54 <pikhq> ehird: Standalone, it's also valid.
19:33:57 <ehird> the tiny pause is shorter than a comma
19:34:00 <ehird> in "Oranges Sam eats"
19:34:12 <ehird> i guess the comma is different in this case
19:34:14 <ehird> to a bog standard ,
19:34:23 <psygnisfive> interestingly, because a lot of these transformations demarcate presuppositional content of a sentence, you can only use them in the portion of a sentence that contains an ASSERTION
19:34:32 <Deewiant> What about "Oranges eats Sam"?
19:34:50 <psygnisfive> i cannot get any OVS constructions to work in english
19:34:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessss...
19:35:00 <ehird> But people will look at you very funny.
19:35:10 <ehird> Oranges, eats Sam. is slightly better
19:35:11 <Deewiant> People will look at you funny for "oranges eats Sam" as well
19:35:17 <psygnisfive> ehird: looking at you funny basically means its bad. :)
19:35:21 <pikhq> I'm going to say "no" unless you come up with something clever.
19:35:22 <ehird> where the , is basically as long as a ;
19:35:26 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's valid, just bad
19:35:29 <Deewiant> The problem with English is that there's no authority for what's valid
19:36:00 <ehird> I'd say it's valid
19:36:01 <psygnisfive> when you do large scale study of the syntax of english
19:36:03 <Deewiant> Meaning that if you're looked at funny it's not valid
19:36:17 <psygnisfive> you find that things are good or bad to different degrees
19:36:27 <pikhq> If you want to see what word orders are valid, it's probably easiest to see which ones Shakespeare used.
19:36:28 <psygnisfive> and OVS is generally not taken to be good.
19:36:36 <psygnisfive> the thing about grammaticality judgements tho is
19:36:42 <Deewiant> Validity is a relative concept in English.
19:36:50 <psygnisfive> most people will not understand what we mean by grammatical
19:37:07 <psygnisfive> a lot of times people think it means "can you figure out what im trying to say"
19:37:12 <psygnisfive> which is not what grammaticality is at all
19:37:33 <psygnisfive> grammaticality is more like "would it feel nature to you to say this?" or "would it sound odd if you heard this said?"
19:37:39 <ehird> wtf R U talk about psygnisfive???????? lol ur freak
19:37:49 <ehird> would it feel nature to you to say this
19:38:16 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/silverstone-raven/01.jpg Computer case. Comes with cat.
19:38:21 <Deewiant> Thinking about it more I'd have to say that "oranges Sam eats" is 'invalid', because nobody thinks that's normal
19:38:45 <Deewiant> I was hoping you wouldn't say that :-)
19:38:53 <pikhq> It's most commonly used in poetry, but it does come up in conversation rather often.
19:39:09 <psygnisfive> actually its probably more used in conversation than in poetry
19:39:20 <Deewiant> Can you give me a decent example
19:39:25 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm just not realizing it
19:39:45 <pikhq> "I can't see Alice." "What about Bill?" "Bill I can see."
19:40:14 <psygnisfive> another example, where its almost completely acceptable without ANY presuppositional meaning, is with quantified expressions
19:40:14 <Deewiant> I guess I can't argue validity for different instances of the same construct :-)
19:40:46 <psygnisfive> there it actually i guess some sort of focus use
19:41:01 <ehird> I'd say "he likes"
19:41:03 <ehird> For maximum confusion
19:41:22 <pikhq> It can be in context.
19:41:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: is to a linguist!
19:41:34 <pikhq> Say you've been talking about someone else for a bit.
19:41:40 <ehird> starting with "is"
19:41:45 <psygnisfive> thats just the nature of indexicals in general
19:42:26 <psygnisfive> its common in colloquial english, and in many romance languages
19:43:17 <psygnisfive> written/more formal english has grammatical null subject in imperatives
19:44:17 <pikhq> More formal English? That's common conversational English as well.
19:44:58 <Deewiant> Point was that validity in formal english is the highest level of validity... or something like that
19:45:00 <psygnisfive> i was merely saying that more formal english doesnt have null subject except in imperatives
19:45:12 <pikhq> Oh. Misunderstood.
19:45:31 <psygnisfive> ehird, if youre interested in the language = logic (or i guess if anyone else is)
19:45:47 <psygnisfive> you should look at Categorial Grammar and its offspring
19:46:34 <psygnisfive> CG, and its most famous derivative, CCG, are essentially just words-as-lambdas-with-direction-specific-application-rules
19:47:27 <psygnisfive> CCG is where i got all that type-lifting nonnyhoggins from
19:47:46 <psygnisfive> i discussed some of it with oklopol and we decided that the idea was interesting and worth making into an esolang
19:48:14 <psygnisfive> because you can code up some absolutely convoluted things that make NO fucking sense except they do, because you can do crazy type shifting operations and stuff
19:49:57 <psygnisfive> since were on the topic of natural language stuff
19:50:08 <psygnisfive> theres a particular construction in english and a number of other languages called determiner sharing
19:50:22 <psygnisfive> which results in one of the WEIRDEST fucking semantic properties ive ever seen
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19:52:03 <psygnisfive> with the appropriate prosody (slight emphasis on "dogs" and "cats")
19:52:04 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:52:13 <psygnisfive> gives the same reading as "many dogs eat alpo and many cats eat whiskas"
19:52:56 <psygnisfive> so theres this sort of ... "invisible" quantifier and invisible verb, that get picked up from the previous ones
19:53:14 <ehird> GregorR: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees?
19:53:15 <psygnisfive> "many_i dogs eat_j alpo and Q_i cats V_j whiskas"
19:53:20 <ehird> oh, it's 3d street view
19:53:21 <pikhq> English has very, *very* weird grammar.
19:53:35 <GregorR> ehird: Somebody is very clever :P
19:53:49 <psygnisfive> this does NOT mean "no dogs eat alpo, or no cats eat whiskas"
19:53:57 <psygnisfive> it means "no dogs eat alpo, and no cats eat whiskas"
19:54:15 <psygnisfive> in the D-shared version, you have OR, but in the explicit version you have AND
19:54:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: the or goes elsewhere, I think
19:54:29 <ehird> "no (dogs|cats) eat (alpo|whiskas)"
19:54:32 <ehird> it's ORing the two arguments
19:54:40 <pikhq> English is just a natural Esolang.
19:55:01 <psygnisfive> "some is the real quantifier thats being shared
19:55:13 <psygnisfive> while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or:
19:55:46 <psygnisfive> "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)"
19:56:03 <ehird> ais523: you'd like that
19:56:13 <ehird> ais523: if an operation is an abbreviation of two operations, precedence
19:56:31 <ehird> bar ((baz x) quux y)
19:56:32 <psygnisfive> because both NOT and SOME are lexicalized in the SAME WORD "no"
19:56:34 <ais523> ehird: I'm rather busy atm
19:56:34 <ais523> so not paying attention
19:56:36 <ais523> trying to catch up on weekly nomic duties before midnight...
19:56:44 <psygnisfive> so that one part of "no" scopes LOWER than OR, while the OTHER part scopes HIGHER
19:56:57 <ais523> ehird: like #define in C?
19:57:03 <ehird> ais523: yep, but in english
19:57:06 <ehird> ais523: no = not some
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19:57:14 <ehird> 19:53 psygnisfive: "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas"
19:57:14 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)"
19:57:22 <ehird> 19:54 psygnisfive: "no" is compositionall "not some"
19:57:23 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: "some is the real quantifier thats being shared
19:57:25 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or:
19:58:12 <ehird> I was pasting for ais523
19:58:30 <psygnisfive> anyway, its a completely baffling thing. i have no idea how to hand that syntactically
19:58:30 <ais523> I'm still not paying attention, so stop pasting for me
19:58:46 <psygnisfive> all i know is the facts about negation scoping there.
19:59:11 <psygnisfive> which can in some sentences have different scopes
20:00:00 <psygnisfive> this kind of shit is all over the place in natural language, its amazing
20:01:19 <psygnisfive> oh, also, ehird, i know you like haskell and type theoretic logicy things, right so
20:01:31 <psygnisfive> you should check out Montague semantics/grammar
20:01:51 <ehird> more like type theoretic dung beetle, am I right?
20:02:22 <psygnisfive> you can trivially translate montague's stuff into haskell types
20:02:39 <psygnisfive> montague uses (a,b) or <a,b> for haskells a -> b
20:03:35 <psygnisfive> quantifiers are presumed to have type ((e,t),t)
20:03:55 <psygnisfive> which i guess is equivalent to haskell forall a. (a -> Bool) -> Bool
20:04:51 <psygnisfive> tho there are only two primitive types in montague semantics, e for individuals, and t for boolean values, so...
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20:06:04 <psygnisfive> the quantifier itself is probably like ((e,t),((e,t),t)) or something
20:07:57 <psygnisfive> all(Birds)(Fly) ~= { x : Bird(x) } subset { x : Flyer(x) }
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20:13:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: that (a->Bool) thing is bunk
20:13:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: that "all" can't be valid because it can't check every single case
20:13:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: you need a way to iterate over all of them
20:14:09 <psygnisfive> well, this isnt supposed to be a true haskell thing ;)
20:14:22 <ehird> all :: ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Bool
20:14:26 <psygnisfive> this is just the truth conditional logic of the all quantifier
20:15:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, i guess if you had a haskell function subset
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20:17:05 <psygnisfive> forall a. forall b. all :: (a -> Bool) -> (b -> bool) -> Bool
20:17:06 <psygnisfive> all apred bpred = subset [x | x <- U, apred x] [x | x <- U, bpred x]
20:17:41 <psygnisfive> or something like that. really itd just be all :: (Individual -> Bool) -> (Individual -> Bool) -> Bool
20:17:51 <psygnisfive> since all _things_ are of the same entity type
20:21:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:23:40 <ais523> I'm a bit busy atm though
20:32:38 -!- jix has joined.
20:36:50 <Sgeo> GregorR, you're on DS now?
20:38:47 * Sgeo is thinking of making "Dream Serums"
20:39:33 <Sgeo> A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems
20:40:01 -!- tombom has joined.
20:40:36 <Sgeo> Peace serum make cause permanent brain damage
20:41:11 <Sgeo> Doesn't exist yet
20:41:16 <Sgeo> I need someone to make graphics
20:41:26 <GregorR> I can make shitty graphics, if shitty is what you're going for ;)
20:41:28 <Sgeo> And I'm still uncertain about making vendors
20:41:42 <Sgeo> GregorR, I'd like good graphics, but shitty will do for now
20:42:03 <GregorR> Is there an agent that will kill any norn that slaps another even once? :P
20:42:33 <Sgeo> GregorR, it can be made fairly easily
20:42:43 <Sgeo> And there are at least two general anti-slap agents out there
20:42:59 <Sgeo> Clucky's, which separates the norns, and mine, which prevents hitting from having any effect
20:43:08 <Sgeo> I suspect that mine isn't well know
20:43:26 <Sgeo> The Bondi norns are hitting me
20:44:36 <Sgeo> Not sure where mine is
20:45:15 <Sgeo> Looking for Clucky's
20:45:19 <GregorR> Sgeo: I have lots of pregnancies, lots of eggs, and they never hatch >_>
20:45:36 <Sgeo> GregorR, my superbreeders are in your world?
20:45:49 <Sgeo> Open the options panel, and change the lower green number to something higher
20:46:31 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/20080108054728/clucky.sts.winisp.net/Agents/Forms/AgentsForDS.aspx High Tech Hand, which includes Clucky's Stop Slapping Norns and Stop Slapping Creatures
20:47:00 <GregorR> Sgeo: Nope, these are all pure, I'm just letting it go and seeing what happens :P
20:47:27 <GregorR> (Except I want to toss in tons of agents before doing that :P )
20:48:43 <Sgeo> Best way to make sure norns are educated: Hook up a timer to a vocabulizer
20:51:43 <ehird> does ds work on osx
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20:52:30 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems <-- what on earth is a "norn"
20:52:44 <ehird> AnMaster: You have a great ability to rehash conversations.
20:53:01 <ehird> Game. Creatures. Artificial life.
20:53:36 <ehird> Docking Station is a recent one. Freeware.
20:53:45 <ehird> Windows, Linux, dunno about OS X.
20:53:57 <ehird> (The old ones aren't linux.)
20:53:58 <ais523> AnMaster: The Norn was in charge of a group of Valkyries in Norse legend, I believe
20:54:14 <ehird> ais523: that's both 100% correct and 100% irrelevant :)
20:54:19 <AnMaster> ais523, That explains why it sounded familiar!
20:54:21 <ais523> a different sort of norn?
20:54:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you probably know it from NetHack
20:54:27 <ehird> 20:53 ehird: Game. Creatures. Artificial life.
20:55:16 <AnMaster> ais523, haven't played val for several months by now
20:55:29 <AnMaster> haven't played nh for several months even
20:56:35 <ehird> great, you can have DS for OS X, but you have to pay
20:56:38 <ehird> Sgeo: pirate it for me plz
20:57:00 <ehird> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Exodus
20:57:14 <Sgeo> I am under the impression that DS for OS X sucks
20:57:22 <ehird> i am under the impression that your mom sucks
20:57:28 <Sgeo> Apparently, a lot of things don't work in DS for OS X
20:57:49 <Slereah> Creatures hasn't done anything good in ten years
20:58:01 <Sgeo> Slereah, heard of the Warp?
20:58:24 <Sgeo> Also, the Genetics Kit and stuff are free now
20:59:53 <ehird> docking station has a warp thing
20:59:58 <ehird> it gives norns to other people.
21:00:15 <Slereah> People have been exchanging norns on the internet way before that
21:00:27 <ehird> Slereah: tell that to the DS users, Sgeo gave them all an ultraviolent norn and an ultrabreeder norn
21:00:30 <ehird> without their consent :^)
21:00:33 <ehird> well, not them all, but a lot
21:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean why
21:00:38 <AnMaster> does GIMP input controller dialog
21:01:10 <ehird> also, maybe some custom input things give via midi
21:01:21 <ehird> unconventional "musical instrument" things could be used
21:01:22 <Slereah> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309after.gif
21:01:44 <ehird> (before: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309.gif)
21:03:31 <AnMaster> ehird, here it is: http://omploader.org/vMW5vYg
21:03:38 <AnMaster> (the gimp input config dialog)
21:03:53 <ehird> oh my god AnMaster, set up a gtk theme, even the one that uses qt
21:03:56 <ehird> raleigh breaks my eyes
21:04:07 <ehird> it's worse than windows 95!
21:04:32 <AnMaster> ehird, how does one do it with none of gnome installed (except gtk itself)
21:04:42 <AnMaster> and really, I like this gtk theme
21:04:48 <ehird> AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine-kde4
21:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine
21:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: it's gtk-qt-engine on gentoo, apparently
21:05:16 <ehird> anyway, once you've done that
21:05:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and I tried that gtk-qt-engine thing.
21:05:27 <ehird> it just uses your kde theme!
21:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, like, buttons over text next to them
21:05:43 <ehird> well, try updating it then :P
21:05:47 <ehird> software gets improved
21:05:59 <AnMaster> less work to live with current theme
21:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I had expected it to be much less work :P
21:06:43 <ehird> updating a package?
21:06:46 <ehird> that's so damn hard
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, no. I tried it recently you see. Like 2-3 weeks ago. Checked it was the last version
21:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: at least install the Mist theme; that's pretty much like the kde 2 theme
21:07:34 <ehird> i.e., plain but the edges are less subdued than Raleigh
21:07:58 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-engines-mist, fwiw.
21:08:11 <AnMaster> and x11-themes/gtk-engines-qt hasn't been updated since then
21:08:16 <ehird> gtk-themes is right
21:08:43 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-themes
21:08:52 <ehird> and install chtheme if you want to use a switcher
21:09:05 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, do gtk-engines
21:09:20 <ehird> AnMaster: and also gtk-chtheme
21:09:34 <ehird> then just start gtk-chtheme and choose Mist.
21:09:39 <AnMaster> hm x11-themes/gtk-engines-2.16.1 is installed
21:09:49 <ehird> then just start gtk-chtheme :-P
21:09:57 <AnMaster> bash: gtk-chtheme: command not found
21:10:04 <ehird> have you installed gtk-chtheme?
21:10:18 <ehird> then... guess what :-P
21:10:32 <ehird> install gtk-chtheme first.
21:10:45 <AnMaster> oh. I would never have guessed _THAT_
21:11:08 <AnMaster> anyway I didn't find what I was looking for in gimp
21:11:15 <AnMaster> which was that "one window" thing
21:11:19 <Sgeo> My arrow keys stopped working :(
21:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: any luck?
21:11:25 <AnMaster> because I got tired of trying to find all the different pallets
21:11:38 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-chtheme...
21:12:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm upgrading other stuff atm, will do it after. Yes gentoo supports concurrent installs and manages locking correctly, but I don't have enough ram to both handle rebuilding QT, having a huge image open in gimp and build yet another package :P
21:13:01 <ehird> did I mention source distros suck?
21:13:07 <ehird> i hereby mention thus
21:13:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there are both pros and cons. For both source and binary distros
21:13:36 <ehird> pros of binary distros: have ram left to install more packages, wait less
21:13:44 <ehird> cons: firefox takes 5ms longer to start
21:13:51 <ehird> what a hard choice :-)
21:14:48 <AnMaster> cons: you get all apps built against libXinerama just because some user *might* be able to afford more than one monitor.
21:15:16 <AnMaster> oh and curl is build with ipv6 support, when you need it with ares support
21:15:35 <AnMaster> curl couldn't do ipv6 and ares last I checked.
21:15:57 <ehird> AnMaster: (1) Oh no, that's SEVERAL MEGABYTES! (2) That's totally a bug. Also, you can do that with two packages or variants of packages.
21:16:57 <pikhq> What about having stuff with GTK support and *not* GNOME support?
21:16:57 <AnMaster> not a bug. It is just not possible currently.
21:17:37 <AnMaster> I don't want gnome support, and not gtk support unless the app needs it and I can't use some alternative one.
21:17:43 <AnMaster> Gimp falls into the latter categoryu
21:18:00 <ehird> pikhq: Multiple megabytes! Also, variants. AnMaster: Two orthogonal features conflicting = bug.
21:18:21 <AnMaster> ehird, orthogonal? How do you mean in this case.
21:18:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what have ipv6 and ares got to do with each other?
21:18:41 <ehird> there's no reason they should conflict
21:19:04 <ehird> I've heard of it, but I don't recall, no.
21:19:14 <ehird> Still, if two features conflict they should conflict at RUNTIME.
21:19:38 <AnMaster> async dns library. Which doesn't support ipv6.
21:19:39 <pikhq> ehird, you need to build packages more. :p
21:19:59 <ehird> Fuck source distros :)
21:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to be a package maintainer then
21:20:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I have written packages before, IIRC.
21:20:35 * pikhq wonders how well the typical binary distro handles USE="-ldap", for example
21:20:51 <AnMaster> ehird, not library/application maintainer. Rather maintainer of a package, of a distro
21:20:54 <ehird> pikhq: By forcing you to waste *megabytes* of disk space.
21:20:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. I know.
21:21:29 <AnMaster> ehird, megabytes of memory too
21:21:30 <pikhq> ehird: Uh... Megabytes of RAM space.
21:21:51 <AnMaster> ehird, not all of us have 6 GB RAM :P
21:21:51 <ehird> Also, a few milliseconds on startup due to not being tuned to your CPU.
21:21:56 <ehird> Truly our binary life is horrific.
21:22:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 2GB is very much enough...
21:22:07 <pikhq> Not all of us can stick 36GB RAM in a system.
21:22:18 <Sgeo> used to have 512mb
21:22:21 <ehird> Srsly, we're talking MEGABYTES here.
21:22:23 <Sgeo> until this year
21:22:27 <AnMaster> yes my old computer had 512 mb too
21:22:28 <ehird> Quit the hyperbole.
21:22:29 <pikhq> I find my RAM in plenty of use with hardly anything going.
21:22:41 <pikhq> ehird, I have a thousand of them.
21:22:54 <ehird> pikhq: That's the compilation :-P
21:23:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, even when not counting the kernel cache?
21:23:03 <pikhq> My browser takes about half of them.
21:23:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thousand megabytes total.
21:23:18 <ehird> Besides, if you don't have much RAM... why are you compiling all the time?! That's just gonna be hell.
21:23:29 <ehird> pikhq: 1024, surely.
21:23:37 <pikhq> ... Who the hell compiles constantly.
21:23:38 <ehird> Seagate gigabytes are only used for HDs.
21:23:44 <ehird> pikhq: people who use source distros
21:23:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you are misinformed then
21:24:00 <pikhq> My weekly update takes at most a couple of hours.
21:24:06 <pikhq> WHEN I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING.
21:24:11 <pikhq> WHEN I'M SLEEPING.
21:24:20 <ehird> WHEN I'M USING CAPSLOCK.
21:24:36 <pikhq> SHIFT; I DON'T HAVE A CPASLOCK.
21:24:52 <pikhq> NOR DO I HAVE A CAPSLOCK.
21:24:56 <AnMaster> what have you mapped your caps lock?
21:25:11 <pikhq> A proper Control key.
21:25:14 <ehird> I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP.
21:25:18 <ehird> pikhq: THAT'S GONNA GIVE YOU RSI, YOU KNOW.
21:25:37 <ehird> pikhq: TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HAND DOES WHEN YOU USE THAT CAPS LOCK CONTROL KEY.
21:25:38 <pikhq> UNIX keyboard layouts have a Ctrl to the left of A.
21:25:45 <AnMaster> ehird, rick roll takes a new meaning when it is about the caps lock indeed!
21:25:47 <ehird> Well, maybe not RSI. One of them tingymajigs.
21:26:06 <pikhq> Oh, my poor pinky.
21:26:12 * AnMaster watches ehird sing "never gonna give it up" to his caps lock key. "<ehird> I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP."
21:26:14 <pikhq> Moving from A a tiny bit.
21:26:27 <ehird> pikhq: Oh come on, try depressing it.
21:26:31 <ehird> It's simply unergonomical.
21:27:08 <pikhq> What, and having a Ctrl below Shift is less so?
21:27:26 <pikhq> What the crap are you smoking?
21:27:36 <ehird> Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift.
21:27:58 <pikhq> It doesn't for Ctrl at A, though.
21:28:08 * pikhq thinks ehird sucks at typing
21:28:09 <ehird> you have mutant hands
21:28:11 <AnMaster> actually the only issue with source based distros are: Firefox and Thunderbird. Even QT isn't very slow to compile. And for OpenOffice you use the binary package.
21:28:24 <ehird> I like how using a binary package still counts as source-based.
21:28:29 <ehird> It's deliciously nonsensical.
21:28:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: Firefox isn't that bad.
21:28:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. <-- mutant hands indeed
21:29:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, Actually ff 3 seems faster to compile than ff 2
21:29:03 <pikhq> ehird: OpenOffice is a terrible load of bloat.
21:29:07 <ais523> swapping control and caps lock is common, but I havne't
21:29:17 <pikhq> It takes a *lot* of time to compile.
21:29:24 <pikhq> (and about 5GB of disk space)
21:29:52 <pikhq> I just use Koffice instead.
21:30:05 <ehird> I use better paradigms :P
21:30:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use use lyx for word processing :P
21:30:32 <AnMaster> but LyX makes it so much easier.
21:31:17 <ehird> I don't "process words", I'm either typesetting something (TeX or alikes) or just lightly formatting some text (Markdown)
21:31:31 <ehird> I don't use spreadsheets, I use plain text files (and for the calculation parts, some scripts).
21:31:42 <ehird> Admittedly, these aren't the most mainstream paradigms, but they're the easiest way to do it for me.
21:31:55 <ehird> I find office suites to be almost entirely worthless.
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21:33:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. Only need them to open files I get.
21:33:34 <ehird> I hear good things about antiword for viewing Word documents.
21:33:49 <ehird> For ODF, though, no clue.
21:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, also, how do you do your presentations?
21:34:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Stab. Stab. Stab.
21:34:10 <pikhq> TeX has a presentation mode, though I'm not familiar with it.
21:34:18 <ehird> Interestingly, a lot more documents/spreadsheets are on Google Docs nowadays.
21:34:19 <fizzie> I do presentations with latex-beamer to PDF.
21:34:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah I heard ConTeXt was good for it
21:34:25 <ehird> So I just point my browser at them.
21:34:34 <ehird> Apart from that, though, I find I rarely want to read a spreadsheet.
21:34:40 <ehird> 21:34 AnMaster: ehird, huh ← I hate presentations.
21:34:54 <ehird> Please read Tufte's "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint".
21:35:34 <ehird> AnMaster: If you want a summary in presentation form... http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000931
21:35:56 <fizzie> It has a very nice front cover: http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_pp
21:36:10 <ehird> Tufte's a clever guy.
21:36:26 <Sgeo> must find replacement
21:36:26 <Sgeo> * Good: teaching kids to smoke
21:36:37 <fizzie> Our information-visualization course had a pile of Tufte books in the "potential reading for interested people" category.
21:38:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how many presentations have you seen btw. I have seen both good and bad ones.
21:38:22 <ehird> AnMaster: too many.
21:38:26 <AnMaster> and just reading the slides isn't useful at all.
21:38:59 * AnMaster hates when you find a link on the GCC wiki or whatever to slides from some developer meeting and that being almost useless to explain the issue.
21:41:04 <fizzie> Based on the prevalence of similar-looking slides in our seminar-format courses, using LaTeX with the "beamer" package is perhaps the most common way of making slides; well, at least for the more science-oriented departments. I guess presentation-culture might be different at the software business side.
21:41:05 <AnMaster> also powerpoint is horrible yes.
21:42:00 <AnMaster> slides can be useful when they are displaying something hard to describe in words. Such as a diagram, an image or similar
21:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, also, next time you are at a cinema, remember it is just slides, switched very quickly :P
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21:46:36 <pikhq> It's not so much that presentations are bad, but people really, really suck at using presentation tools right.
21:47:25 <pikhq> And Powerpoint doesn't help in the least.
21:48:58 <AnMaster> but I have seen it done right. Without computer. Hand written overhead.
21:49:32 <pikhq> A decent slideshow for presentations should have slides that show little more than, say, diagrams, visualisations... Relevant formulae or algorithms...
21:49:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, saw it done a lot by high school teachers.
21:50:05 <pikhq> Some of whom did a Powerpoint-style overhead. X_X
21:51:35 <ais523> good slides are just a backdrop to a speech
21:51:45 <ais523> they don't really convey the information by themselves, they're meant as something to look at whilst listening
21:52:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so no useful diagrams?
21:52:16 <ais523> oh, they can be useful
21:52:23 <ais523> just diagrams don't normally tell the whole story
21:52:55 <pikhq> Yeah, it should be a supplement to the speech. Definitely.
21:53:01 <ais523> they don't normally tell the whole story either
21:53:22 <ais523> generally speaking, when I do presentations, my slides are pictures but you can't tell what they mean without the description given in speech
21:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, not the whole story. But sometimes you can't say it in words easily.
21:53:53 <ais523> AnMaster: are you trying to disagree with me?
21:54:00 <ais523> I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing
21:54:04 <AnMaster> just saying sometimes slides are needed.
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21:56:00 <AnMaster> ais523, example: You are on an aircraft accident investigation team. You are now describing some specific damages to some relevant people outside the team. The media maybe? Who knows. Anyway it was decided to do it as a presentation. The pictures showing the damages would help a lot in explaining it. Of course, them alone would not be enough. But nor would just describing it be!
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21:56:49 <ehird> "nor" is incorrect
21:56:54 <ehird> you mean "neither"
21:57:46 * pikhq should create a programming language with the NOR operator as the only boolean operator. :p
21:57:59 <ais523> actually, I think "nor" might be correct there too
21:58:02 <ais523> and NAND is actually more common
21:58:14 <ais523> due to being slightly cheaper to make with standard transistors
21:58:28 <AnMaster> how comes you often see comments just before end of line in LaTeX btw?
21:58:29 <coppro> yeah, that's a good point
21:58:33 <ais523> IIRC, I'm not quite sure
21:58:33 <AnMaster> \begin{flushleft}\includegraphics[%
21:58:33 <AnMaster> width=1.0\columnwidth]{img/sgrass.base.111.eps}\end{flushleft}
21:58:44 <ehird> line continuation?
21:58:55 <AnMaster> ehird, thought of that. But it doesn't seem to make any difference if I remove it though
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21:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems even stranger
22:00:57 * AnMaster wonders if it is possible to write C with no spaces or newlines apart from what is needed for #include at the top
22:01:47 <pikhq> If you use only integers.
22:01:52 <pikhq> main(){a,b,c;} is legal C.
22:02:12 <pikhq> return(x); is legal.
22:02:34 <ais523> no, main() isn't legal C99
22:02:51 <ais523> and falling off main is defined in C99 to have an implied return 0
22:03:00 <ais523> Deewiant: main() isn't, int main() is
22:03:06 <ais523> C99 removed implicit int
22:03:12 <Deewiant> ais523: GCC, at least, accepts main().
22:03:18 <ais523> a,b,c is illegal if a,b,c aren't defined higher up the file, though
22:03:31 <pikhq> I didn't say it was valid C99.
22:03:35 <ais523> but I was just looking at the one line
22:03:39 <pikhq> And idiomatic K&R C.
22:03:42 <AnMaster> any way you can do it with other vars than int?
22:03:50 <ais523> yes, you can define function pointer vars
22:03:53 <pikhq> Oh, also pointers.
22:03:56 <Deewiant> pikhq: GCC doesn't accept those declarations, FWIW.
22:04:04 <ais523> you're right, those would probably be more useful than function pointers
22:04:11 <Deewiant> pikhq: At global scope, but not at function scope.
22:04:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: Hmm. Oh, right. It does for global vars, I think.
22:04:16 <ais523> you could do arithmetic on NULL+integer
22:04:30 <ais523> it would be undefined, but would mostly work in practice
22:04:34 <ais523> and yes, int*a is valid
22:04:46 <ais523> although you'd probably want to use char*
22:04:58 <ais523> you can use *a, not just a
22:04:58 <pikhq> ... God, you could do int*a=malloc(sizeof(int));*a=x;XD
22:05:12 <ais523> but how are you going to define malloc?
22:05:24 <ais523> #include <stdlib.h> doesn't work
22:05:25 <Deewiant> Alternatively, int*a; and then cast it to an integer type all the time
22:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523, "apart from standard includes at top" I said
22:05:30 <Deewiant> ais523: AnMaster allowed #includes
22:05:32 <ehird> ais523: #include<stdlib.h>
22:05:40 <ais523> well, you can write void*malloc(size_t);
22:05:43 <Deewiant> But even if you don't allow them, you can declare it
22:05:44 <ais523> without any whitespace
22:05:44 <pikhq> ais523, GCC will just complain about the implicit declaration.
22:05:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what about defining size_t then
22:05:57 <pikhq> And yes, you can do the declaration anyways.
22:06:03 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, good point
22:06:12 <ais523> you'd have to guess how big a size_t was, and put that type in there instead
22:06:18 <ais523> in fact, you'd have to hope it was unsigned int
22:06:21 <AnMaster> ais523, unsigned long wouldn't work
22:06:23 <ais523> because the other possible types contain spaces
22:06:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes it would. It's 32-bit on x86_32 and 64-bit on x86_64.
22:07:09 <pikhq> Oh. *Unsigned* long.
22:07:11 <ais523> size_t tends, in practice, to be as big as a pointer
22:07:12 <AnMaster> I think plain long would work if you made sure to only do small allocations
22:08:00 <pikhq> No structs or typedefs or unions.
22:08:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, just use int*structs_a;
22:08:49 <AnMaster> yes it would be split over several arrays
22:08:51 <ehird> just use arrays somehow
22:09:23 <pikhq> ehird: That wouldn't work.
22:09:38 <AnMaster> because the array isn't allocated anywhere
22:09:57 <pikhq> It was a crap example.
22:09:57 <ehird> i meant "basic idea, make it work"
22:10:22 <AnMaster> since I suspect it can't work, apart from for integer variables in the array in C89
22:11:06 <pikhq> Actually, it just *might* work, so long as that pointer never, ever leaves the function scope.
22:11:18 <AnMaster> anyway structs split over several malloced arrays would work fine, it would even be in line with current trends, stream processing stuff and such. Unit stride. Buzz words.
22:11:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't think it would compile
22:12:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: A lot of weird shit compiles.
22:12:47 * Sgeo sends 10 ultraviolent norns through the warp
22:13:22 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make them unrejectable, for extra fun!
22:14:28 <Sgeo> So far, Hinco hasn't rejected any of my norns, as far as I can tell
22:14:36 <Sgeo> Ok, Hinco rejected a norn
22:15:09 <Sgeo> Some random DS user
22:15:53 <Sgeo> Gah, when I send a rejected norn through, it keeps being sent to the user who rejected him
22:17:59 <ais523> time to go home, I think
22:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo, does this game exist in a single player edition?
22:20:12 * Sgeo vaguly wonders if his norns are causing death around the Warp
22:20:23 <Sgeo> AnMaster, well, you don't have to go online >.>
22:20:37 <AnMaster> and ehird said it was freeware for linux? hm
22:20:41 <Sgeo> Docking Station, part of the Creatures series
22:21:58 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=448_0_8_0_M13 for Linux
22:22:16 <Sgeo> You'll need to patch some script with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff
22:22:40 <AnMaster> naming suggestions (ehird is banned after previous bad suggestion): BF-to-C compiler written in Scheme, will be slightly optimising, but nothing fancy. Previous idea was SFUCK (as a joke on BF and S-Expressions), but I want some SFW name.
22:23:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that sounds like a sexual joke again :P
22:23:31 <Deewiant> To me it just sounds like it sucks
22:24:01 <Sgeo> What was ehird's suggestion?
22:24:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo, something like "thisappwillbehorrible", don't remember exactly
22:24:31 <pikhq> Including the period.
22:24:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I'm not going for that
22:26:51 <AnMaster> BF is short for BlueFang clearly, which is a pun on BlueTooth. Meaning it should be called RedEar?
22:28:06 <AnMaster> actually, I'll call it "after", since my other bf-to-c compiler was called "before"
22:30:21 * AnMaster throws a dice for which DVCS to use. 1 = bzr, 2 = darcs, 3 = hg, other values = rethrow.
22:30:50 -!- nooga has joined.
22:30:56 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T41ZRw45obs rotfl
22:31:03 <AnMaster> I was worried I would end up with darcs
22:32:54 <ehird> AnMaster: "12 months" in estonian sounds like "cock tastes good" in english.
22:33:28 <Deewiant> I had to ponder that for over 10 minutes when I saw it on reddit, thinking what the hell the point was
22:33:39 <Deewiant> It helps that it sounds almost the same in Finnish
22:34:12 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it didn't sound like the English one. More like kaksties qood
22:34:22 <ehird> Because you're not English. :P
22:34:37 <Deewiant> Yeah, only English can mangle other languages so successfully
22:34:44 <ehird> At first, I thought they'd been the subject of a prank
22:34:49 <ehird> the girls didn't know estonian
22:34:53 <ehird> but had been told that translation or something
22:35:00 <ehird> it took translating it myself to realise it was pronounciation
22:35:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to send some superbreeders through
22:36:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo, go play SL. And spam that instead. It was less bad.
22:36:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I prefer the Creatures talk.
22:36:41 <ehird> Mostly because I've tortured my fair share of norn in my time.
22:36:48 <AnMaster> Sgeo, or even better. Go play nethack
22:37:01 <ehird> ITT: AnMaster orders people around and tells them what they enjoy
22:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I just find this completely irrelevant to the channel ;P
22:37:26 <ehird> Like 99% of talk in here.
22:37:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, tell me about PSOX instead!
22:37:38 <AnMaster> ehird, only when you are active
22:37:55 <ehird> No, that's simply false.
22:38:00 <ehird> I do read the logs, you know.
22:39:11 <ehird> Unfortunately I don't have a strong AI to filter those
22:39:27 <AnMaster> ehird, your brain should be quite adequate I hope
22:39:53 * AnMaster tries to remember how to do file IO in scheme!
22:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not going to manually filter logs.
22:40:13 <ehird> It's less than 50 pages!
22:40:17 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
22:40:24 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6
22:40:27 <ehird> library procedure: (call-with-input-file string proc)
22:40:28 <ehird> library procedure: (call-with-output-file string proc)
22:40:40 <ehird> optional procedure: (with-input-from-file string thunk)
22:40:40 <ehird> optional procedure: (with-output-to-file string thunk)
22:40:49 <ehird> (with-input-from-file "foo" (lambda (s) (display s)))
22:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't, cat is "concatenate", meaning the point of cat is that it takes several files.
22:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Read esolang wiki.
22:41:40 <ehird> Our official definition of cat is copying input to output.
22:41:49 <ehird> Also, they're acceptable.
22:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm using the POSIX definition
22:41:57 <ehird> They deviate a bit too much from R5RS for my tastes.
22:41:59 <AnMaster> ehird, do you find any other implementation better?
22:42:04 <ehird> If you use the R5RS language, it's better.
22:42:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it depends. There is a gigantic variety, and none are perfect.
22:42:33 <Sgeo> This person must have left the door open.. they sent me my norns back in such a way that I can, without modifying anything, force them to accept it
22:42:38 <AnMaster> ehird, of course none is perfect. But which one is best.
22:42:51 <AnMaster> And it seems mzscheme defaults to R6RS.
22:43:02 <ehird> Well, slap it then and tell it to use R5RS.
22:43:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The best is probably Chez Scheme, but it's proprietary and $$$. (Chez Scheme Lite is freeware). Gambit is fast, Gauche has a lot of non-R5RS scripting-related tools. Guile is shit. MIT/GNU Scheme is *VERY* R5RS-compliant, but supports little else. (I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS).
22:43:48 <ehird> Scheme 48 is quite popular and R5RS-compliant, iirc. I have used it a bit and it is quite nice.
22:44:03 <ehird> Probably a good bet.
22:44:07 <AnMaster> "(I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS)." <-- why do you care?
22:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean, I'd prefer that implementation if I'm just writing R5RS
22:44:26 <ehird> That's what that usage means
22:44:39 <ehird> OTOH, I do recommend writing R5RS :-P
22:45:14 <ehird> ehird's recommended Scheme development environment: Scheme 48 (http://s48.org/) + Emacs + quack.el (http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/)
22:45:16 <ehird> and a copy of R5RS.
22:45:29 <ehird> quack.el is invaluable; just remember to set its fontify style to 'emacs in your .emacs
22:45:45 <ehird> and the implementation executable nam
22:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: If you just want to develop something Real Quick(TM), DrScheme (the "IDE") in R5RS mode + a copy of the standard works too.
22:46:54 <AnMaster> ehird, atm I just want to get a basic such compiler working
22:47:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
22:47:14 <ehird> Well, if you want something I'd recommend for R5RS work, install Scheme 48. Your package manager has it.
22:47:21 <ehird> (that's not even a conditional. It has it :-P)
22:47:36 <ehird> It's been under development since 1987, IIRC.
22:47:39 <AnMaster> and I dislike the indention style used in DrScheme :(
22:47:41 <ehird> It's a bytecode compiler/interpreter
22:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Use Quack. Srsly.
22:47:51 <ehird> Although it uses much the same style.
22:47:58 <ehird> The indentation of Scheme code is a subtle art. It takes getting used to.
22:48:07 <ehird> The name ‘Scheme 48’ commemorates our having written the original version in forty-eight hours, on August 6th and 7th, 1986.
22:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: and scheme48 :-P
22:48:33 <AnMaster> ehird, is 1.8 last version of that?
22:48:50 <ehird> well, it's over a year old, but it is the latest version
22:49:22 <ehird> 0.35, but it doesn't matter.
22:49:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack.
22:49:48 * AnMaster files a post-it note to the edge of his monitor to file a bug about the quack package being outdated
22:50:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. <-- guile had a VERY good line editing REPL, with highlighting of matching () too
22:50:33 <ehird> (setq quack-fontify-style 'emacs)
22:50:34 <ehird> (setq quack-default-program "scheme48")
22:50:36 <ehird> (setq quack-run-scheme-always-prompts-p nil)
22:50:38 <ehird> AnMaster: ↑ how to set up quack in .emacs
22:50:49 <ehird> and Guile doesn't even get continuations right!
22:50:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't ask you what scheme impl you want to start every single time.
22:51:07 <ehird> Anyway, after doing that, open a .scm and type C-c C-l
22:51:12 <ehird> the window will split into your file and a REPL.
22:51:30 <ehird> From there... well... M-x quack-<TAB> and see what it can do :-P
22:51:37 <AnMaster> I have that bound to other things
22:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: aka "load-file"
22:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: All Lisp modes use it.
22:52:15 <AnMaster> ehird, um no? I tried the elisp mode just now
22:52:27 <ehird> The elisp mode isn't much of a mode.
22:52:31 <ehird> Since it works nothing like most Lisps.
22:53:16 <AnMaster> checked in default scheme mode toop
22:53:25 <ehird> maybe I misremember
22:53:31 <ehird> just ask emacs what quack-load-file or whatever is bound to
22:53:51 <ehird> The nice thing about emacs/quack is that printf-debugging becomes really hard: you have to switch to a terminal, get the command to do it, and run it.
22:53:58 <ehird> Whereas trying in the repl is just a few keys.
22:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, which is worst: Guile or R6RS?
22:54:48 <ehird> They're both awful in entirely different ways.
22:55:07 <ehird> They can be both as terribly awful as each other and live separate, peaceful lives of hate and rage.
22:55:30 <AnMaster> someone should implement R6RS in guile
22:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you have contacts in the maffia?
22:56:19 <ehird> No. I have contacts in the maffffffffffffffffffffffffffffia though.
22:57:03 <AnMaster> isn't that the spelling in Englush
22:58:09 <ehird> We are being targeted by the mafffffffffffffffffffffffff(3 minutes of f)fffia.
22:59:02 <AnMaster> I can't even imagine how you thought that would be a joke. It can't be anything else though
22:59:40 <ehird> It is not a joke as such. It is just an amusing image.
23:03:01 <ehird> POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4564: watercool a 386.
23:03:38 <pikhq> POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4563: make a 386 that needs watercooling.
23:03:47 <ehird> That would be some terrible 386.
23:04:02 <AnMaster> what about massive SMP with 386
23:04:12 <pikhq> No, it would be a 386 with some incredible clock speeds.
23:04:23 <ehird> A cluster of three hundred and eighty-six 386s.
23:04:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no no. at least a thousand of them
23:04:29 <ehird> Running at 386MHz each.
23:04:33 <pikhq> A 386 at 3GHz would probably need some ridiculous cooling.
23:04:47 <ehird> 386 386s @ 3.86GHz
23:05:11 <AnMaster> where would you fit the 387 co-processors
23:05:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
23:05:38 <pikhq> You'd have 387 of them.
23:05:46 <AnMaster> ehird, heuristics detected popular culture reference. Not found in database.
23:05:49 <ehird> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace
23:06:00 <AnMaster> I'm not clicking tvtroupe links
23:06:06 <ehird> AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace | w3m -dump
23:06:21 <ehird> w3m -dump erases links :-)
23:06:37 <ehird> but you need to do
23:06:39 <ehird> w3m -dump /dev/stdin
23:06:57 <ehird> AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace>x&& w3m -dump x|$EDITOR
23:07:09 <ehird> that doesn't work either
23:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: w3m -dump http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace|$EDITOR
23:08:07 <AnMaster> everything in a thin column at the middle
23:08:09 <ehird> the text column is just a little small
23:08:13 <ehird> it's still perfectly readable
23:08:24 <ehird> or whatever the emacs command is to reformat
23:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, define:whatever in this context
23:09:25 <ehird> whatever=anything you want, except less enthusiastic
23:10:18 <ehird> I wonder how quiet modern watercooled systems are.
23:11:07 <ehird> "In April 2008, Cray and Intel announced they would collaborate on future supercomputer systems. The first product from this collaboration, the Cray CX1, was launched in September the same year. This is a blade server system, comprising up to 16 dual- or quad-core Intel Xeon processors, with either Microsoft Windows HPC Server 2008 or Red Hat Enterprise Linux installed. "
23:11:11 <ehird> THAT's a super-computer?
23:11:22 <ehird> 32 cores of a regular server processor. Woop de doo.
23:12:41 <ehird> pikhq: share in my outraeg.
23:12:43 <pikhq> That's two of our silly all-the-money build.
23:12:57 <ehird> also, that's cuz we weren't optimizing for processors :P
23:13:04 <ehird> but seriously, it only costs $10k too
23:13:15 <pikhq> Still, we had 8 chips in the damn thing.
23:13:21 <ehird> it's just a high end number-cruncher
23:13:50 <pikhq> A supercomputer is more than 4U.
23:14:16 <pikhq> I mean, jeeze. That's 16 freaking *blades*.
23:14:32 <pikhq> That's a single blade chassis!
23:14:36 <ehird> sheesh, this supercomputer thing is crap
23:14:43 <ehird> it's just a bunch of regular Xeon machines stuck together
23:14:46 <pikhq> Sure, it's pricy stuff, but a supercomputer?
23:15:02 <pikhq> That's a low-to-midrange cluster, I guess...
23:15:19 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links?
23:15:22 <Sgeo> Too addictive?
23:15:37 <ehird> AnMaster: /nick plz
23:15:53 <ehird> 23:15 Sgeo: Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links?
23:15:54 <ehird> 23:15 ehird: AnHammer.
23:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, not going to change to that nick. And you can take it if you want. I don't care.
23:16:28 <AnMaster> just going to confuse tab completion for everyone else
23:17:05 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Too addictive? <-- help help I'm held prisoner in a wiki about tv troupes
23:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what it means then
23:20:02 <AnMaster> crabbed: annoyed and irritable
23:20:02 <AnMaster> wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
23:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, why would it be odd not to know it?
23:20:37 <ehird> It's like the most commenest word ever :P
23:20:50 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I think "a" or possibly "an" is in English
23:21:16 <AnMaster> I don't have a word frequency table for English handly
23:23:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:25:56 <nooga> polish 'no' = english 'yep'
23:26:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:33:26 <ehird> I think we should start making other languages look bad. Brainfuck has too long been the standard for "this language is as readable as X!"
23:33:36 <ehird> We must create new horrific things to make mainstream languages look bad :-)
23:33:56 <pikhq> As it just so happens, Brainfuck is a poor language for such comparisons.
23:34:07 <pikhq> Brainfuck is relatively legible.
23:35:33 <oerjan> malbolge, on the other hand.
23:37:18 <Asztal> whitespace is kind of hard to read, too, without a syntax highlighter...
23:46:20 <ehird> Asztal: how goes your bef int?
23:46:41 <Asztal> haven't touched it in months :)
23:47:10 <Asztal> I'm quite happy to be avoiding C++, really
23:47:13 <ehird> Asztal: I wasn't asking about your mother
23:47:19 <ehird> dammit why did you have to get that line in
23:56:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_API anyone remember this
23:56:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:56:48 <ehird> goddamn, Voodoo cards.
23:56:52 <ehird> those things sucked :)
23:56:59 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest.PNG
23:57:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: those components arrived?
23:58:22 <Sgeo> Just killed them all
23:58:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what OS you sticking on it?
23:58:31 <Sgeo> Hahaha at the gravestones rolling across the screen
23:59:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'd go for a linux distro due to the lvm ssd shit
23:59:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sure it is
23:59:38 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest_dead.PNG
23:59:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: compared to the fragmented table that the SSD will do instead...
00:02:28 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:10:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:15:05 <ehird> i've never understood having an expensive computer with shit internet :)
00:15:13 <ehird> you can buy mac pros with stylish apple 56k modems :p
00:17:11 <Asztal> I'm on a pentium 3 on 20Mbps down cable, currently
00:17:56 <ehird> Asztal: Don't you run Windows?
00:18:16 <ehird> Pentium 3s are interesting, they were cartridges
00:18:20 -!- Tarap has joined.
00:18:51 <Asztal> I'm borrowing a laptop while my replacement motherboard arrives
00:19:56 <pikhq> Asztal, I've got a similar system.
00:20:01 <Asztal> also it has only one USB port without the dock
00:20:11 <pikhq> ehird: It's easy to understand shit Internet with expensive computer.
00:20:20 <bsmntbombdood> i used to have a computer with 192 mb of ram, the only thing that made it bearable was running a custom kernel and fluxbox
00:20:22 <pikhq> Internet is shit here.
00:20:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe you do crazy computation all the time :P
00:20:32 <Asztal> and my external USB hard drive causes the USB port to stop working until I power off the laptop :)
00:20:42 <ehird> also fluxbox isn't lightweight
00:21:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://incise.org/not-so-tiny-window-managers.html
00:21:21 <pikhq> You're thinking of a different WM.
00:21:33 <Asztal> there's a virtual machine installed on this too, but I'm scared to run it
00:23:09 <pikhq> Uh, what units are those cited binary sizes in?
00:23:35 <bsmntbombdood> fluxboxed used like 4 times less ram than anything else i used
00:23:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It's more minimalist than metacity. It is NOT minimalist absolutely.
00:24:22 <ehird> In a total overview, it doesn't come up anywhere near the top for minimalism
00:24:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: at the time that article was made:
00:24:39 <ehird> metacity 49787 loc
00:24:39 <pikhq> That's less than a megabyte of binary.
00:24:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, so massive.
00:24:53 <bsmntbombdood> getting rid of all the desktop enviroment was a huge savings though
00:25:02 <ehird> pikhq: it's an old article, and
00:25:03 <ehird> a personal comment
00:25:03 <pikhq> Fluxbox is a 566 kilobyte binary.
00:25:03 <ehird> This page is not to be taken too seriously.
00:25:08 <pikhq> That is light-weight.
00:25:11 <ehird> but the LOC counts are accurate.
00:25:25 <ehird> Let's define OS X's WM as "bloated".
00:25:30 <ehird> OMG! METACITY IS SUPER-MINIMALIST!
00:25:46 <pikhq> OS X's WM? Bloated?
00:25:49 <ehird> Objectively rated, fluxbox ain't one of the more minimal WMs...
00:25:56 <ehird> pikhq: in implementation? fuck yes!
00:26:12 <pikhq> It's a windowing system, not just a window manager.
00:26:25 <ehird> I am referring to the SystemUIServer.
00:26:29 <ehird> Which does not include the Dock, etc
00:26:37 <coppro> anyone know a utility I can abuse to pick a specific-numbered line from a file?
00:26:43 <ehird> coppro: head and tail
00:26:47 <ehird> coppro: tail +N | head -1
00:26:48 -!- Tarap has left (?).
00:26:55 <ehird> pikhq: I was just pointing out that if you pick a starting point, anything can be minimalist.
00:27:00 <pikhq> BTW, my window manager is a 148 byte binary.
00:27:17 <ehird> 148 bytes is cooler
00:27:31 <pikhq> Ratpoison is 148 kilobytes? That seems larger than is necessarry.
00:27:45 <pikhq> Though it *does* include a REPL.
00:28:19 <pikhq> (IIRC, the Ratpoison devs have started working on Stumpwm since Ratpoison was approaching a Lisp)
00:28:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It manages windows.
00:28:31 <ehird> Yeah... ratpoison should have gone the OTHER direction!
00:28:36 <ehird> It doesn't need a repl at all
00:28:38 <pikhq> Which is just what it needs to do.
00:28:50 <ehird> agreed with bsmntbombdood on ratpoison's shittiness
00:29:03 <ehird> but I'm an anti-tilist
00:29:17 <ehird> and anti-anti-mousist :P
00:29:43 <pikhq> You're in the infamous Reality Distortion Field.
00:29:47 <ehird> I like mice, bsmntbombdood.
00:30:03 <ehird> pikhq: I have thought exactly these thoughts since before I got this mac.
00:30:15 <ehird> I hold no special attachment to Apple other than liking the UI of OS X.
00:30:29 <ehird> http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/inspiration.html ← this is where ratpoison comes from. I think it sums it up very accurately.
00:30:39 <pikhq> Well, in that case, you just need to use the command-line more.
00:31:11 <pikhq> How many windows do you have open aside from terminals?
00:32:04 <ehird> pikhq: browser windows (My tabbing/windowing distinction is complex and weird.), IM client (a) contact list (b) conversation window, this IRC window.
00:32:11 <ehird> Yes, I use the graphical environment for things it is suited for.
00:32:19 <ehird> I use the terminal for things it is suited for.
00:32:51 * pikhq has a web browser open.
00:32:52 <ehird> Just because I don't subscribe to a philosophy of a terminal's-galore-all-the-terminals-you-can-eat-buffet-just-$1,000 orgy doesn't mean I don't appreciate them.
00:33:17 <pikhq> My IRC client is also my IM client, and it's on screen 0.
00:33:20 <ehird> pikhq: you're running an IRC client based on one of those cute things that badly emulate a graphical environment by using VT-100 codes, aren't you?
00:33:32 <ehird> that's cute. it really is.
00:33:39 <pikhq> It doesn't emulate a graphical environment.
00:33:57 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Irssi, what else?
00:34:04 <pikhq> Well, maybe RawIRC.
00:34:44 <ehird> I ended up contorting my IM conversational style to fit the ugly pseudo-IRC-channel emulation
00:34:44 <pikhq> It does a simple job and does it well.
00:34:57 <Asztal> bitlbee is a nice idea, but I don't like how it's implemented
00:34:57 <Sgeo> My step-mother told me that I have to write her a meaningful and sincere Mother's Day card, and that she'd bust up my computer if I didn't.
00:35:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: Might I interest you in small claims court?
00:35:25 <ehird> Sgeo: sounds like you have family issues.
00:35:49 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think it's only a threat, but still
00:35:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Judy^2.
00:36:23 <ehird> Sgeo: I like the concept of writing something sincere that is your true feelings under a threat.
00:36:30 <ehird> It's so bizarrely illogical.
00:37:03 <pikhq> Wait, she only asked for meaningful and sincere.
00:37:10 <pikhq> She didn't ask for a favorable impression of her.
00:46:00 <oerjan> ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S)a:^^
00:46:26 <oerjan> ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):^^
00:46:27 <fungot> Jud(Jud)S( )*S ...bad insn!
00:46:30 <pikhq> !ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S)a:^^
00:46:49 <oerjan> ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):^
00:47:01 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
00:47:09 <oerjan> ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
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00:47:46 <pikhq> Fungot's not here.
00:48:38 <pikhq> !unlambda 9y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
00:48:39 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.8529: parse error
00:48:43 <pikhq> !unlambda (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
00:48:44 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.8565: parse error
00:48:59 <oerjan> !underload (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
00:49:35 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
00:49:40 <oerjan> !underload (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
00:56:50 <ehird> 00:47 oerjan: ^ul (y)(ge)((Jud)S( )*S):*^
00:56:50 <ehird> 00:47 fungot: Judge Judy
00:56:52 <ehird> you just have him ignored
00:57:05 <ehird> (I know this from when you mistakenly left your irssi config open on my box :-P)
00:57:31 <oerjan> !unlambda `.y```sii`. `.e`.g```sii`d`.d`.u`.Ji
00:57:35 <fungot> pikhq: and it is eta. f))
00:57:46 <ehird> pikhq: my brain is like a sponge for useless trivia :^)
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01:01:12 <oerjan> !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y
01:01:58 <oerjan> 02:01 DCC CHAT from EgoBot [64.62.173.65 port 10052]
01:02:45 <GregorR> oerjan: I changed it to use DCC chat for remaining data so that it doesn't get kicked off.
01:02:47 <pikhq> Direct connection to Egobot, and Egobot spills the entire output.
01:03:01 <oerjan> 02:02 Irssi: Starting query in freenode with =EgoBot
01:03:01 <oerjan> 02:02 Irssi: Closing query with =EgoBot
01:03:01 <pikhq> Best way of handling that, IMO.
01:03:08 <oerjan> not immensely useful :D
01:03:22 <pikhq> GregorR: Get it to omit a single blank line.
01:03:41 <GregorR> oerjan: It's not my fault you sent too many newlines X-P
01:03:53 <oerjan> i didn't send _any_ newlines
01:04:01 <oerjan> !slashes /./Jud/.ge .y
01:06:42 <GregorR> !sh echo 'Judge Judy'; echo bleh
01:07:06 <GregorR> Wow, I really killed it this time.
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01:10:57 <GregorR> Dobleve te efe, when did EgoBot become so tempermental :P
01:11:18 <oerjan> Have you fed it recently?
01:11:32 <GregorR> Only the highest quality infant skulls.
01:12:24 <pikhq> And the corpse of the old EgoBot?
01:12:29 <pikhq> Remember, you are what you eat.
01:13:16 <oerjan> hm that _could_ be a problem, if it computes like an infant
01:13:36 <oerjan> they are known to be temperamental, too
01:14:08 <oerjan> GregorR: i suggest feeding it Vulcans in the future
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01:18:23 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
01:18:56 <oerjan> !yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:19:31 <GregorR> Is "yodawg" an unlambda interpreter? :P
01:19:33 * oerjan vaguely recalls that may have been a problem
01:19:59 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
01:20:59 <oerjan> !yodawg htttttttttttttttttttttt
01:21:17 <oerjan> so the userinterps actually do recurse?
01:23:19 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was a problem with recursing my unlambda interpreter if the base interp didn't distinguish all chars from EOF
01:23:55 <oerjan> if it was just running out of file, the error should have been different
01:27:36 <oerjan> !yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl2
01:27:53 <oerjan> !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:28:18 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
01:28:26 <oerjan> !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:28:40 <oerjan> that's not supposed to happen
01:29:24 <oerjan> that gives "Unexpected end of file" in a terminal
01:31:41 <GregorR> That's probably waiting forever for input.
01:31:42 <oerjan> !unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter2.unl
01:31:43 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.10206: parse error
01:32:36 <GregorR> It doesn't close stdin, it just doesn't send anything on stdin.
01:36:44 <oerjan> !addinterp r13 yodawg http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/rot13.unl
01:36:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter r13 installed.
01:37:12 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
01:37:32 <EgoBot> Interpreter r13 deleted.
01:38:12 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
01:38:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure you got the parameters right?
01:39:01 <oerjan> !addinterp r13 unlambda http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/rot13.unl
01:39:02 <EgoBot> Interpreter r13 installed.
01:39:29 <oerjan> apparently using addinterp with a language that was already an addinterp didn't work
01:39:38 <oerjan> yodawg = unlambda in unlambda
01:41:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter r13 deleted.
01:43:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, report a bug to GregorR
01:45:14 <oerjan> i assumed he was listening :)
01:45:23 <GregorR> <oerjan> apparently using addinterp with a language that was already an addinterp didn't work
01:45:28 <oerjan> anyway, i think that's a bit awkward to achieve
01:45:38 <GregorR> It sends the program on stdin.
01:45:42 <GregorR> Then the other program on ... super-stdin?
01:46:04 <oerjan> for my unlambda interp, you simply concat the stdins
01:46:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: That's language-and-interpreter-specific.
01:46:17 <AnMaster> allow the user to specify style
01:46:30 <GregorR> AnMaster: How do you propose I accomplish that?
01:46:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, add another parameter?
01:47:16 <AnMaster> something like: concat|delimiter:*|delimiter:\0
01:47:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, you could support the most common styles
01:47:43 <GregorR> The only style I've ever heard of is having a delimiter :P
01:47:56 <AnMaster> all I can think of is "some delimiter char or chars" and concat
01:48:42 <oerjan> GregorR: it doesn't work for my unlambda interp, but for some it would be reasonable to add more file arguments
01:49:43 <oerjan> those that are not written in esolangs, in particular
01:50:00 <oerjan> and even ... was about to say
01:50:29 <oerjan> there's probably a way in intercal too
01:50:34 <AnMaster> not that befunge-98 in it supports that atm. Since I haven't got around to making a compile time option to disable SOCK while enabling file IO
01:51:53 <oerjan> GregorR: oh also the delimiter for the other kind could be included in the program, for adduserinterp
01:53:13 <oerjan> if from a URL, the delimiter could be given after it
01:53:38 <oerjan> well i guess the possibility for features is endless, as usual
01:53:52 <oerjan> (you could have several URLs too)
03:30:23 <psygnisfive> so what wonderful conversations did i miss?
03:34:04 <Sgeo> psygnisfive, were you here for the Creatures stuff?
03:35:53 <Sgeo> I sent ultraviolent norns to random people against their will, so now worlds can be decimated
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12:18:47 <asiekierka> that doesn't stop me from making new C64 crap
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13:13:57 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
13:14:09 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [194]
13:14:13 <EgoBot> 114 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-. [460]
13:14:23 <AnMaster> what is the current shortest hello world in bf?
13:14:37 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
13:14:59 <lereah_> AnMaster : look up on golf?
13:16:15 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
13:16:40 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for asm!
13:17:23 <asiekierka> seems i'm going to program a deadfish interpreter for this now
13:17:44 <AnMaster> lereah_, changed nick recently?
13:18:15 <AnMaster> just languages doesn't have help items
13:18:57 <AnMaster> x86 or x86_64 asm, with gas syntax
13:22:40 <lereah_> My home computer is also connected
13:22:50 <lereah_> lereah_ is my work nickname
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13:24:38 <asiekierka> how does it interpret befunge with only one line to use
13:24:50 <Deewiant> As normal, you just have only one line to use :-P
13:25:32 <asiekierka> so i can type !befunge http://asienet.site40.net/befungecodeblahblah.txt ?
13:25:46 <Deewiant> My question mark indicated I don't know for sure
13:25:54 <Deewiant> Try it, not like anything can break...
13:28:05 <fizzie> I am quite sure it does support that.
13:28:27 <fizzie> Not completely sure, of course, but quite sure nevertheless.
13:28:49 <fizzie> Maybe I could run fungot under it. :p
13:28:50 <fungot> fizzie: nope. i haven't tried. don't have " the internet is like finding poop in the toilet, but doesn't work in quile throw it away.... http://home.comcast.net/prunesquallor/ macro.txt
13:30:03 <asiekierka> !bf http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/392quine.b
13:30:04 <EgoBot> ->++>+++>+>+>+++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>++>+++>++>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>>+++>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>>>+>+>>>+>+>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>++>+++>++>>+>+>++>+++>+>+>>+++>>>>>+++>+>>>>>++>+++>+++>+>>+++>>>+++>+>+++>+>>+++>>+++>>++[[>>+[>]++>++[<]<-]>+[>]<+<+++[<]<+]>+[>]++++>++[[<++++++++++++++++>-]<+++++++++.<]
13:30:53 <asiekierka> !bf32 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b
13:31:27 <fizzie> That's only a couple of lines more, though.
13:31:40 <asiekierka> <EgoBot> 5972304273877744135569338397692020533504
13:31:47 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
13:31:48 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
13:35:04 <fizzie> Maybe it uses the ! input separator, like fungot does.
13:35:04 <fungot> fizzie: manpage was a bit off)... well, in an fnord, etc
13:36:00 <fizzie> Well, I'unno how it does input.
13:38:02 <EgoBot> Unknown command (hhh) encountered
13:38:16 <EgoBot> Unknown command (hh) encountered
13:38:34 <EgoBot> Unknown command (h h) encountered
13:38:37 <EgoBot> Unknown command (h;h) encountered
13:40:22 <asiekierka> !addinterp bct bf http://www.bf-hacks.org/hacks/bct.b
13:40:24 <EgoBot> Interpreter bct installed.
13:40:56 <fizzie> !hello http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hh.txt
13:41:21 <fizzie> Hm, putting two h's separated by a newline made it accept the first h, but it didn't do anything for the second.
13:45:16 <fizzie> What's the !info for, though? A language or something else?
13:45:18 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
13:45:26 <fizzie> Oh, just a generic note.
13:46:11 <asiekierka> Wow, I did a non-wrapping constant for 68 that's 1 byte smaller than the one on the wiki
13:46:49 <asiekierka> Well, if going to the cell with the value counts as a byte (doing ">"), then it's the same size
13:58:42 <lereah_> His name is linked to masturbation, though all he did was, you know, pull out
14:00:07 <asiekierka> Is there BF code to output an 8-bit value as an in-te-ger
14:02:02 <fizzie> We've got a bad case of duplicated functionality here.
14:03:54 <fungot> asiekierka: " what's food for, anyways?" " not exactly the daycare-place i was thinking
14:04:42 <asiekierka> !rot13 shatbg: lbh ner n wrex. qhqr, pna'g lbh or pbbyre?
14:04:43 <EgoBot> fungot: you are a jerk. dude, can't you be cooler?
14:04:52 <fizzie> EgoBot's being ignored here.
14:05:19 <EgoBot> I'm not pleased with this!
14:05:26 <fizzie> We'd have botloops day and night otherwise. At least this way they're a bit discouraged.
14:05:44 <asiekierka> I can still pull out my own megahal bot
14:06:08 <asiekierka> having the content of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy inside
14:07:50 <asiekierka> !rot13 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainClub
14:07:51 <EgoBot> <!QBPGLCR ugzy CHOYVP "-//J3P//QGQ KUGZY 1.0 Genafvgvbany//RA" "uggc://jjj.j3.bet/GE/kugzy1/QGQ/kugzy1-genafvgvbany.qgq">
14:08:25 <fizzie> I don't think we have a hitchhikery style on fungot; I guess was too bored of just normal books at that point.
14:08:25 <fungot> fizzie: i'm off to the left somewhere.
14:08:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
14:09:55 <fizzie> I do have the books as text, but I don't think it'd be any more amusing than, say, discworld quotes.
14:10:08 <lereah_> Does fungot talk to people?
14:10:09 <fungot> lereah_: i need a train to tik since the bicycle is there. there is no standard way
14:10:27 <asiekierka> fizzie: I also wanted to make a "IEEE" style, as in, all the IEEE info from wikipedia AND the specs if possible, pasted into a .TRN
14:10:44 <fungot> lereah_: i suspect that optimisations could be made to execute code as some apparently take callbacks. when a variable's value?
14:10:55 <lereah_> How do you chose between styles?
14:11:06 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (Jargon File 4.2.0 or something)
14:11:06 <fizzie> Just use "^style foo" from that list.
14:11:15 <asiekierka> fungot: Tell me something about bananas.
14:11:16 <fungot> asiekierka: flame off. i suppose i should have been
14:11:16 <fungot> lereah_: a publisher that i have found out a certain special way.
14:11:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
14:11:28 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
14:11:29 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
14:11:35 <fungot> lereah_: callorhinus ursinus, relative size, and their heights were much less liable to reversion :)/ upper part :) a true sheep dog " as i hear from professor agassiz and dr. johnson states that they ran at 3 or 4 years,/ numerous recorded cases :) retrievers, in which latter/ fibres :) this muscle diverge downwards, with/ laminae coated by minute micaceous scales; it alternates many times with a coarse-grained, greenish grauw
14:11:47 <fizzie> Heh, the "jargon" style is actually the UNIX-HATERS list and not a jargon file. "Known issue."
14:11:58 <asiekierka> ...Where can I download the Esolangs Wiki database
14:12:01 <fizzie> As is Darwin using a whole lot of smileys.
14:12:26 <fizzie> There was a slight accident in building the Darwin language model, which managed to translate all "of" tokens into ":)", and all "the" tokens into "/".
14:13:13 <fizzie> Hm, you mean fungot-babble? No, it's just a bit of Funge. There's no sense in there, except what you make of it.
14:13:13 <fungot> fizzie: from/ varying accounts which i have just received your book,
14:13:35 <asiekierka> fizzie: Could you please, one day, separate the fungot-babble code from the rest
14:13:36 <fungot> asiekierka: aurora island, an upraised atoll.
14:14:26 <fizzie> It's just an unpruned n-gram model, with word selection directly from the n-gram frequencies with no smoothing. Anyway, I've got some C++ code for it too; I don't have it available right now, though.
14:14:44 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
14:14:46 <asiekierka> also, ...i didn't understand that sort of mathobabble
14:15:20 <asiekierka> also, where can i get the database of the Esolang wiki
14:16:28 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen any public links to database dumps; it's no Wikipedia, after all. (Might not have noticed even if there were.)
14:16:48 <asiekierka> So I think I will need to make a .TRN file from the Wikipedia database
14:17:02 <asiekierka> *then notices he'd need a supercomputer for that*
14:17:24 <fizzie> Oh, I have a "wikipedia" style already; it's a tiny fraction of all Talk: namespace pages.
14:17:27 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
14:17:33 <fizzie> One 256ths, apparently.
14:17:39 <fizzie> fungot: How do wikipedians speak?
14:17:40 <fungot> fizzie: fnord does not cover the informatics concept of structuring data, and the rating on other projects was brought up to stub class. user:betacommandbotbetacommandbot 08:22, 10 november 2007 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip
14:17:58 <fizzie> (Okay, the wiki-markup filtering could've used some work.)
14:19:29 <asiekierka> Will a YouTube style be good, as in, the largest "comment" videos, and all the comments from them pulled into one file
14:20:35 <asiekierka> for example "Airbus A320 Plane Crash" is the winner, with nearly 32000 comments
14:20:59 <fizzie> Any mostly plain-text file is okay, preferrably something with one sensible IRC-length element (like a comment) per line. I did think about YouTube comments, but it'd have needed some extrication work.
14:22:23 <asiekierka> I need a way to remove everything that's before a word
14:22:36 <asiekierka> For example: I have "aaa bbb ccc" and "ddd bbb fff"
14:22:49 <asiekierka> i want to remove everything on that line up to "bbb", or nothing if there's no "bbb"
14:22:59 <asiekierka> So the lines will become "ccc" and "fff"
14:23:08 <asiekierka> and "aaa ccc" would become "aaa ccc" xD
14:23:15 <fizzie> sed -e 's/.*bbb *//' is the crude solution.
14:24:12 <asiekierka> also, only putting like pages 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11
14:26:59 <fizzie> Uh, I don't have the computer with the language-model generation code turned on at the moment. Any fungot-babble-related things will have to be done later.
14:27:00 <fungot> fizzie: i think my favorite would be ssilence of the lambs i like to collect baseball cards i'm not really
14:27:23 <fizzie> It doesn't really work like that.
14:27:36 <fizzie> I could wake-on-lan the computer, but I've misplaced the MAC address.
14:28:21 <fizzie> I might have put the code somewhere for downloading, though.
14:28:38 <asiekierka> well, it's going to be a while before i'm done
14:32:39 * AnMaster wonders how iterating over a list and just adding it back together ended up with transforming (1 2 3 4) into ((2 (1 ())) 3 4)
14:33:58 <AnMaster> is there any shorter way than (cons a (cons b t)), I want to append two elements to the head of the list t
14:34:22 <fizzie> `(,a ,b ,@t) if you don't mind the punctuation.
14:35:49 <fizzie> (append (list a b) t) is reasonably readable too.
14:35:51 <Deewiant> Something like (append (a b) t)
14:35:56 <fizzie> It's not much shorter, though.
14:36:33 <fizzie> In fact it is longer by two characters than the cons thing.
14:36:57 <asiekierka> If there is a line "bbb ccc" and "aaa ccc"
14:37:19 <asiekierka> if bbb is at the beginning of the line
14:37:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's not exactly what was wanted here, I think.
14:38:27 <Deewiant> "If bbb is at the beginning of the line the entire line is removed"
14:38:35 <fizzie> Yes, but that was just an example.
14:38:57 <fizzie> /^bbb/d removes all lines that start with bbb; is that what you wanted?
14:39:21 <fizzie> Then I don't see how that's related to '"aaa ccc" should become ""'. But anyway.
14:40:01 <fizzie> I can't seem to find the code, though.
14:40:13 <asiekierka> 1500 from an AIRBUS A320 PLANE CRASH and 500 from an Obama-related video thing
14:40:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't suppose you happened to download that fungot language-model-building code? Someone was asking for it, even though I cautioned about it being really very user-unfriendly.
14:41:17 <asiekierka> fizzie: Should I send the Youtube Comment-o-Mess
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14:41:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't ask for it recently afaik
14:42:14 <fizzie> Not recently, no; this was rather long ago. But I might recall wrongly.
14:43:32 <fizzie> Well, maybe I can remote-boot that computer it's on.
14:44:49 -!- MizardX has joined.
14:47:55 <fizzie> So, how do I get them comments?
14:48:08 <lereah_> I have to do a powerpoint presentation thursday :(
14:59:44 <fizzie> Well, let's see... it doesn't support reloading the style-list-file (even though it should), so I'll have to do a quick restart.
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15:00:51 <fizzie> Eesh. Heh. Fungot doesn't recognize my authority, since I had a broken identd when connecting and I am now "n=fis@..." and not "i=fis@...". Heh.
15:01:13 <fizzie> Maybe I'll need to do some reconnecting myself, too.
15:01:18 -!- fizzie has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:01:20 -!- fizzie has joined.
15:01:47 -!- fungot has quit ("stylish").
15:02:35 -!- fungot has joined.
15:03:18 <fizzie> It should work. How do you feel, fungot?
15:03:18 <fungot> fizzie: to be under barack obama! wajajjajajjajajaja!!!
15:04:19 <fungot> asiekierka: why... why... why... why... why... why... why... why... i dont think it had pilots, no problems with relations p.s for the hell did the pilot, apart from its obvious characteristics its a computer
15:04:40 <asiekierka> it'll either talk about planes or about Obama
15:05:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
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15:06:42 <asiekierka> ok, some Max Payne-related comments there
15:08:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
15:08:38 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
15:08:41 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
15:10:03 <fungot> lereah_: cause i know captain, he spent a year, whilst the co-pilot and president of the official aeronautic websites?
15:11:17 <asiekierka> I will also send you a copy of a book if you can add it
15:11:36 <fizzie> I think I tried that once.
15:11:46 <fizzie> Probably not on-channel.
15:11:49 <fizzie> I do have a copy of it, at the very least.
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15:12:11 <asiekierka> I also have a different book, that's smaller, "Map the 64"
15:12:16 <fizzie> I didn't bother removing line-breaks, so it was a bit... abrupt. Bits of basic here and there.
15:12:26 <fizzie> Will have to leave now, though; I'll look at style-things later.
15:14:35 <asiekierka> Now, Deewiant, i will need your help with sed formatting
15:14:47 <asiekierka> 1. How to remove all "empty except a newline" lines
15:14:59 <Deewiant> I refer you to http://www.grymoire.com/Unix/Sed.html
15:14:59 <asiekierka> 2. How to remove every line starting with "::" and ending with "::"
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15:19:59 * AnMaster notes that this code would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than in Scheme.
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16:02:24 <ehird> 14:19 AnMaster notes that this code would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than in Scheme.
16:02:31 <ehird> do you not understand the concept of learning a language
16:03:13 <ais523> well, I suspect it would have been a lot clearer in Erlang than Unlambda
16:03:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I do. I just note that erlang is better fit for this task
16:03:22 <ais523> and quite a bit clearer in Unlambda than Malbolge
16:03:55 <AnMaster> this task fits perfectly a language with advanced pattern matching on lists.
16:05:57 <ehird> what, compiling brainfuck?
16:06:06 <ehird> AnMaster: protip: use SRFI-1.
16:06:24 <ehird> or just don't use scheme, since you evidently have some sort of mental block around learning a new paradigm
16:06:46 <ais523> and really, pattern matching libraries exist for more or less every real language nowadays
16:06:51 <ais523> if they don't have it built in
16:07:06 <ais523> PCRE is perfectly capable, although rather inefficient, at doing list pattern matching, for instance
16:07:14 <ais523> (rather inefficient because it deals with the lists in text form)
16:07:20 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
16:07:22 <ehird> if you're using Scheme, pattern matching is doin it rong
16:07:25 -!- MizardX has joined.
16:07:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> or just don't use scheme, since you evidently have some sort of mental block around learning a new paradigm <-- why do you think so?
16:07:39 <ehird> AnMaster: you're probably writing Erlang in Scheme
16:07:41 -!- MizardX- has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:07:44 <ehird> from what I've read
16:08:09 <ehird> oh, and today on Fucking Crazy Ways To Cool a Computer: Submerge all the components in oil. No, really. http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/
16:08:26 <lereah_> Wouldn't your and get all sticky?
16:08:40 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't follow the field ;-)
16:08:40 <lereah_> Plus, what would people think?
16:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't think of a better way to optimise a parse tree of bf than pattern matching. Sure there are other ways. In fact I'm doing closer to what I would do in C than what I would do in Erlang.
16:08:51 <ehird> lereah_: Wouldn't your all and get all sticky indeed.
16:08:52 <lereah_> If I see a man with his hand covered in oil
16:09:03 <AnMaster> but pattern matching would make it so much easier
16:09:41 <ais523> ehird: you've never seen a mineral-oil-cooled computer before?
16:10:05 <ais523> I haven't seen one in RL, but I've known about them for ages
16:10:21 <ais523> apparently the oil has a tendency to get into the inside of the wires connecting to peripherals, though
16:10:21 <AnMaster> I have seen them on internet. Old.
16:10:25 <ais523> and leak out of the keyboard
16:10:29 <ehird> It's sort of ridiculous. You can't keep any of the components as spares because they're fucking oily forever :-P
16:10:32 <ais523> although using a wireless keyboard would probably avoid that problem
16:10:42 <ehird> Eurgh, imagine upgrading.
16:10:54 <ehird> FIRST, STICK YOUR NEW COMPONENT IN THE VAT OF OIL. IT IS NOW OILY. THEN, ATTACH IT.
16:11:00 <ehird> NOW, ATTEMPT TO GET OIL OFF YOUR HANDS AND FAIL MISERABLY.
16:11:08 <ehird> USE COMPUTER AS-IS. IT'S HARDCORE.
16:11:23 <lereah_> Plus, what happens if it falls?
16:11:26 <ehird> I like how they immerse it in oil and then still have to use four fans.
16:11:34 <ehird> It's meant to touch the components.
16:11:49 <ehird> But seriously, with four fans you could probably watercool the same machine.
16:11:58 <ehird> Which doesn't involve putting all your components in oil.
16:12:36 <lereah_> Would mercury work well, I wonder?
16:12:36 <ehird> Wow, this hardcore computing place is ridiculous.
16:12:40 <ehird> You can buy THREE gtx 285s.
16:12:49 <ehird> I'm wondering what kind of game needs three.
16:12:54 <ehird> Or, hell, any task.
16:13:33 <ehird> "3 Intel 160GB SSDs in RAID 0"
16:13:52 <ehird> I'm wondering how you fill up 480GB with an OS drive.
16:15:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Even Crysis doesn't use that much.
16:15:30 <ehird> Deewiant: ... running two games at once?
16:15:45 <AnMaster> if you are going to do multi-screen installation for flightsim with built up cockpit you probably end up using multiple computers, one to render each screen.
16:15:47 <Deewiant> No, having two games on disk at once.
16:15:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, I was talking about the GTXs
16:16:00 <AnMaster> rather than three graphics card in one computer
16:16:08 <ehird> But still, the top games are what, 10GB?
16:16:22 <Deewiant> Yeah, these days around that much.
16:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, um? Full scenery for Flightgear is 17 GB iirc
16:16:37 <AnMaster> a lot more for xplane and MSFS iirc
16:17:03 <pikhq> ehird: That sounds very weird... I've got about 40GB used on my /...
16:17:06 <ehird> Deewiant: In that case I'd buy an X25-M as a boot drive and a 300GB velociraptor as an apps drive :P
16:17:09 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that is scenery for all the world. :P
16:17:20 <ehird> pikhq: Well, they are immersing this shit in oil.
16:17:21 <pikhq> And that includes headers for everything, source for everything, and binary packages for everything.
16:17:28 <ehird> pikhq: It's a rather excessive thing already.
16:17:46 <Deewiant> ehird: In practice, I'd say around 200GB is enough for OS+apps even with a fair supply of games.
16:17:51 <pikhq> I fail to see how that's excessive. Just very weird.
16:17:59 <ehird> pikhq: http://hardcorecomputer.com
16:18:08 <ehird> They're riding on the "THIS IS SO FUCKING EXTREME." marketing wave.
16:18:23 <pikhq> Deewiant: More than enough.
16:18:38 <pikhq> Really, for just OS+apps, a 50G hard drive can suffice.
16:18:45 * ehird adds 6 of all three monitor types they offer (the max you can get0
16:19:06 <pikhq> What, has Windows gone freaking crazy or something?
16:19:09 <Deewiant> I've got Linux+Vista taking up 70G currently.
16:19:14 <Deewiant> Linux includes apps, Vista doesn't.
16:19:15 <ais523> ehird: are you trying to see how expensive you can make it?
16:19:26 <pikhq> I've got Linux taking up 34G..
16:19:31 <impomatic> Has anyone played RobotWar or CoreLife? Both are programming games.
16:19:39 <ehird> I've played robotwar.
16:19:40 <Deewiant> I play Robocode but that's it.
16:19:48 <pikhq> That includes: binaries, headers, source, binary packages, and C compiler cache.
16:19:50 <ehird> Robocode i've played.
16:20:03 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said: For built up cockpits with screens covering all of your viewfield outside the cockpit you end up with multiple computers. For example there is a JAS 39 Gripen simulator like that at one of the flight museums in Sweden, powered by a cluster of 8 computers that runs Linux. Simulator software? Custom from SAAB.
16:20:09 <Deewiant> pikhq: And 100G for games isn't much, these days.
16:20:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Do you have a bot running on the roborumble?
16:20:23 <pikhq> Windows *has* gone apeshit-crazy.
16:20:24 <ehird> AnMaster: It sounds hilariously unfun to play.
16:20:25 <AnMaster> It's a PR stunt from SAAB kind of.
16:20:30 <ehird> pikhq: 100G for multiple games
16:20:48 <pikhq> That's only slightly crazy.
16:20:51 <ehird> Final price for the
16:21:05 <ehird> And it only has 4GB of RAM!
16:21:25 <ehird> http://pastie.org/474504.txt?key=9fooyz1aoaayeghiixktfq
16:21:31 <ehird> The graphics card is HARDCORE-CUSTOMIZED.
16:21:38 <pikhq> So, I could get roughly equal RAM and CPU for $200.
16:21:46 <Deewiant> That's not even very many games.
16:21:51 <ehird> pikhq: Well, it's DDR3.
16:21:59 <ehird> 2 650W power supplies
16:22:06 <ehird> For redundancy in case you lose your game.
16:22:09 <ehird> CAN'T HAVE THAT HAPPENING.
16:22:18 <ehird> 'snot even a fuckin' blu ray burner!
16:22:23 <ehird> In fact it's all rather crap.
16:22:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it is very realistic. Though the actual code is of course secret. SAAB made JAS 39 Gripen and it is in service currently in the Swedish Airforce + a few other airforces in different parts of the world. The public simulator thing is a PR stunt I guess.
16:22:30 <pikhq> ~/gameemu/ is 7.6G, and ~/.wine/drive_c is 17G...
16:22:32 <ais523> ehird: can't you get 8GB RAM computers nowadays?
16:22:40 <pikhq> I guess I just play very light-weight games?
16:22:44 <ehird> ais523: Well, up to 128GB.
16:22:46 <Deewiant> pikhq: My Vista install sans programs is 37G :-)
16:22:48 <ehird> ais523: But for desktops, 12GB.
16:22:56 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's just silly.
16:22:56 <ehird> That's what bsmnt and I willen-havebeen.
16:23:01 <ais523> ah, I was wondering where you'd get a motherboard you could fit 128GB of ram into
16:23:04 <ehird> (I'm not up to date on the time travel pronouns).
16:23:19 <AnMaster> realistic here meaning: realistic handling, a bit too few screens covering the viewfield to give you the proper experience.
16:23:21 <ehird> pikhq: how much ram did our $80k have?
16:23:21 <Deewiant> That's just the OS, I haven't put anything extra there.
16:23:39 <ehird> Only ddr2 though :-P
16:23:41 <pikhq> Enough to reasonably have the OS in a RAM disk.
16:23:49 <ehird> Now THERE'S an idea.
16:24:19 <ehird> I should assemble a machine that's the most powerful I can get to blow those hardcore computer assholes out of the water.
16:24:22 <AnMaster> I mean, you could have Linux on a ram disk with much much less.
16:24:24 <ehird> Although it'll probably cost 7 bajillion dollars.
16:24:53 <AnMaster> ehird, then the way to go is a cluster
16:25:04 <ehird> Anyway, limit one case.
16:25:09 <ehird> And a desktop case.
16:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird, use that Infiband thingy of course
16:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Also a rack is a type of case :P
16:26:26 <ehird> Let's see now... Two i7 965s...
16:26:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: You could without *too* much effort get Linux on a RAM disk with 1G RAM...
16:26:54 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115200
16:26:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, um, I could get it on a ram disk with 32 MB RAM. Assuming I began using something like DSL
16:26:57 <ehird> EVGA E759 CLASSIFIED LIMITED EDITION 3-Way SLI (x16) + PhysX w/ECP & NF200 1366 Intel X58 EATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
16:27:02 <ehird> Aww, only 6 ram slots.
16:27:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, In fact 16 MB would be enough I bet.
16:27:17 <ehird> Oh, it's only one.
16:27:20 <ehird> I need a server motherboard.
16:27:31 <pikhq> 8MB would be enough, actually.
16:27:36 <ehird> ... hmm, but I also want three gfx carsd in SLI.
16:27:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, pikhq all you need is kernel + minimal userland. Meaning busybox
16:27:47 <pikhq> Use a squashfs for your root FS, load the thing from a floppy.
16:27:54 <ehird> THIS IS TOO CONFUSING ;;_;;
16:28:09 <pikhq> The kernel itself could be quite minimal.
16:28:36 <pikhq> You wouldn't even need much in the way of drivers...
16:28:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, my rather feature-filled x86_64 bzImage is 2.7 MB for 2.6.28. I have a few modules, stuff I rarely use, or stuff built out of tree.
16:29:12 <pikhq> My bzImage is 1.1MB...
16:29:26 <AnMaster> almost all the stuff built in?
16:29:40 <pikhq> My bzImage is 1.8M.
16:30:03 <pikhq> My initramfs has no modules in there; it's there just to set up LVM.
16:30:22 <AnMaster> so getting something down on a floppy would be quite possible. You could begin by dropping support for stuff like oprofile.
16:30:22 <pikhq> (you need to run pvscan for the actual device nodes to show up)
16:30:41 <pikhq> I've done it a few times just for the hell of it.
16:30:58 <pikhq> Linux frodo 2.6.28-gentoo-r5 #2 PREEMPT Mon Apr 27 12:51:25 CDT 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 2800+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
16:31:02 <pikhq> What do you think? ;)
16:31:05 <ais523> AnMaster: now, try to get Vista on a RAM disk
16:31:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't own a copy of vista, no idea how big it is
16:32:06 <ais523> does it still fit on one DVD, by the way?
16:32:20 <AnMaster> but you would probably need a few GB of ram at least for XP. + a few more for the actual XP
16:32:26 <pikhq> I think the only OS that could rival it in size is (arguably) Debian.
16:32:33 * ais523 wonders why it is that big, given that it comes without drivers and without many applications
16:32:37 <pikhq> If you install everything, that is a huge installation.
16:32:38 <ais523> well, without any but basic drivers
16:32:55 <ais523> pikhq: but there's at least one disk space pedant in Debian
16:33:01 <ehird> lol, it's hard to configure an excessive game machine... since you end up configuring just a regular gaming machine :-D
16:33:06 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:33:07 <ehird> damn you gamers and your Poe's Law!
16:33:18 <ais523> doing things like replacing all the copies of the GPL with a symlink to the centralised copy
16:33:27 <ais523> that must save, what, a few tens of KB?
16:33:29 <ehird> http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law
16:33:36 <ehird> “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.
16:33:48 <pikhq> ais523: What, it's just 1 Bluray disc...
16:33:53 <AnMaster> ais523, um more. the GPL is a few tens of KB iirc :P
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16:42:28 <ehird> Deewiant: how big's that base vista install you said
16:42:47 <Deewiant> Since it's been running and updated and used
16:42:57 <Deewiant> And includes some stuff in Users/ etc
16:58:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you know how you said nobody big would sell a pre-watercooled machine since it'd be too risky?
16:58:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Dell do.
16:59:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Dell's the first big company I've seen do it.
16:59:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember that Apple did
17:00:02 <ehird> Apart from them :P
17:01:04 <AnMaster> I never said no big company would. Since I knew Apple used to. Though I probably said it was risky and I couldn't see why they did it. AND provided warrandy
17:03:01 <ehird> I'm not sure why it's actually risky.
17:03:07 <ehird> The fluid used isn't conductive.
17:04:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:04:23 <ehird> AnMaster: why'sit risky?
17:04:41 <oklopol> ehird: because sitting safe is just plain boring
17:05:03 <ehird> oklopol: oerjan will sue you for violating his intellectual property rights
17:05:52 <oklopol> i prefer to think of myself as his apprentice, so you know, he'll just be proud of my puns getting as bad as his!
17:06:25 <oklopol> btw if a is nilpotent, then 1-a is a unit.
17:07:30 <oklopol> i just wanted you to know that
17:08:13 <AnMaster> ehird, Q: what is worst that can happen with cooling? A: Cooling fails. Q: What happens when Air cooling fails? A: System begins overheating, detects it and shuts down to prevent damage. Q: What is worst that can happen when water cooling fails? A: Depends on how. Pump failing? Same as aircooling. Water leaking? Fried computer.
17:08:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The fluid. Is not. Conductive.
17:08:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm aware of that it is distilled water.
17:08:43 <ehird> No, that's one option.
17:08:50 <ehird> You can buy coolant that is non-conductive.
17:09:02 <oklopol> distilled water is not conductive
17:09:17 <ehird> It was the previous clause of my sentence that applied.
17:10:08 <AnMaster> ehird, over time impurities due to wear on the water cooling system will enter the fluid. And if it leaks and there is dust on the mobo that is impure too. Potentially it could end up conductive.
17:10:19 <ehird> AnMaster: That's why you replace it often enough.
17:10:35 <ehird> All you're saying is "if you grossly undermaintain your PC it'll break".
17:10:40 <oklopol> you could have like fish there, eating the dirt
17:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, Harddrive can fail. That is why you do backups often enough.
17:10:56 <ehird> Watercooling can fail. That is why you replace the coolant often enough.
17:11:41 <AnMaster> ehird, You trust the users will do it? Users who don't make weekly backups?
17:12:21 <ehird> ... If the user knows what watercooling is, and doesn't say "WATER + ELECTRONICS? LOL!" they know how it works.
17:12:50 <ehird> AnMaster: besides, modern coolant only needs replacing once a year, IIRC.
17:14:11 <AnMaster> ehird, Yeah it was much worse a few years ago.
17:21:28 <ehird> Chicken-Shit Asteroid Veers Away At Last Minute. http://www.theonion.com/content/news/chicken_shit_asteroid_veers_away
17:24:28 <ehird> asiekierka: give it a gui
17:24:49 <ehird> asiekierka: also, take advantage of the crt display to increase the perceived resolution/colours, somehow
17:24:55 <ehird> like subpixel rendering for blurry TVs :-D
17:25:26 <ehird> asiekierka: do that, and also take advantage of the fuzziness to make it look like it's higher-resolution
17:25:53 <ehird> asiekierka: bullshit, go buy a shitty CRT.
17:26:09 <ehird> on top of your head
17:26:27 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving").
17:26:27 <asiekierka> and my "other PC/TV space" is allocated with the TV, a DVD recorder, a scanner, a laptop and the C64
17:26:33 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[afk].
17:26:54 <oklopol> bye was fun talking to you
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18:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, string formatting in R5RS, what is the best way?
18:12:36 <ehird> display, write and newline, pretty much.
18:12:50 <ehird> If it's inconvenient, change your formatting. And try and only use strings at your I/O layer.
18:13:03 <AnMaster> hm... I guess file IO will work.
18:13:16 <ehird> > (string-append "a" "b" "c")
18:13:17 <AnMaster> (I'm considering how to generate the C code from the program tree)
18:13:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you may find that useful.
18:13:23 <ehird> along with number->string and the like
18:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, was thinking how to turn '(add 2 5) into p[2]+=5;
18:14:28 <AnMaster> just consider what do add in place of ... :P
18:14:35 <ehird> (string-append "p[" (number->string (cadr x)) "] += " (number->string (caddr x)))
18:14:57 <oklopol> can't the numbers be any expressions tho?
18:15:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, polynoms not yet implemented. They might be expressions later.
18:15:45 <ehird> AnMaster: not nasty
18:15:58 <ehird> AnMaster: you might also want
18:15:59 <oklopol> and yeah how's that nasty, that's the canonical way
18:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, compared to for example python's %, C's snprintf(), erlang's io:format(), and so on it is nasty IMO
18:16:33 <ehird> AnMaster: (list-ref list k) is the kth element of list
18:16:51 <ehird> but use c[ad]+r unless you have a reason not to
18:17:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I know that. Just caddar is a lot easier to read :P
18:17:54 <AnMaster> however I find it confusing that head of second cons cell is cadr not cdar
18:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: it does take a bit to get used to scheme's attitude
18:18:04 <ehird> AnMaster: not really, because
18:18:08 <ehird> (cadr x) = (car (cdr x))
18:18:17 <ehird> it's in the right applicative order
18:18:39 <ehird> AnMaster: note: you only have up to cddddr :-P
18:18:48 <ehird> library procedure: (caar pair)
18:18:48 <ehird> library procedure: (cadr pair)
18:18:52 <ehird> library procedure: (cdddar pair)
18:18:55 <ehird> library procedure: (cddddr pair)
18:19:07 <AnMaster> ehird, if I needed that much, the data-structure I'm using is wrong :P
18:19:22 <oklopol> that's a retarded limitation
18:20:46 <AnMaster> ehird, scheme is a very nice language. For knowing. It makes you program better in other languages. But it is not very nice to actually code in. Kind of like LFS is for Linux distros. It is useful to have done it, but you wouldn't want to use it as your everyday system.
18:21:05 <ehird> It's perfectly usable day-to-day, it just takes getting used to
18:21:14 <ehird> You have to structure your program around Scheme
18:28:55 <AnMaster> (string-append "p[" (number->string offset) "]"))
18:29:56 <ehird> AnMaster: -ref is possibly the wrong name; I'd go for -at
18:30:16 <ehird> I seem to recall -ref having some sort of defined meaning though it escapes me
18:30:23 <AnMaster> and what colour do you want your bike-shed? ;P
18:30:32 <ehird> Perhaps it's so that an implementation can extend set! to take places, so you can do (set! (list-ref l k) x)
18:30:38 <ais523> although I don't have a bike
18:30:48 <ehird> but yes, it's correct to define such a function
18:30:51 <ais523> AnMaster: for a bikeshed? Eww!
18:30:56 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, it's offsetted from the pointer, isn't it?
18:31:06 <ehird> cell-offsetted-by, then, or something
18:31:22 <ehird> not that it terribly matters, just nitpicking style concerns
18:31:25 <AnMaster> ehird, then it will break 80 columns, or I need a lot more new-lines
18:31:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you're meant to do newlines
18:31:44 <ehird> if you have two or more non-literal subexpressions, pretty mcuh
18:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but not everywhere
18:31:50 <ehird> and if you have a newline, each subform should go on its own line
18:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: That's irrelevant.
18:32:20 <ehird> If cell-offsetted-by is requiring newlines everywhere you need a new function anyway
18:34:54 <AnMaster> um. Behaviour in BF is allowed to be undefined if you < below the first cell right?
18:35:17 <ehird> Wait, offsetted is a stupid name. Make that offset.
18:36:10 * pikhq is fond of the C way of handling walking off the array.
18:36:15 <pikhq> "You're in random memory!"
18:36:36 <pikhq> (if someone is clever enough, they could write x86 assembly to memory doing that and execute it. :p
18:37:01 <ehird> pikhq: And you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory?
18:37:25 <pikhq> ehird: It's undefined behavior, bitch. ;)
18:37:50 <ehird> ((Moss: [picks up phone] Hello, IT? Yah-hah? Have you tried forcing an expected reboot? You see the driver hooks the function by patching the system call table, so it's not safe to unload it unless another thread's about to jump in there and do its stuff, and you don't want to end up in the middle of invalid memory.
18:37:57 <ehird> Editor's note: this is actually the wrong way around.))
18:38:09 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asiekierka.
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18:38:32 <ehird> AnMaster: The IT Crowd.
18:38:35 <asiekierka> well, an ASIE-STANDARD ESOTERIC milisecond
18:38:44 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IT_Crowd
18:38:54 <asiekierka> which is infinitely long until the one that declared it says that it ended
18:39:11 <AnMaster> ehird, link to that specific quote I meant
18:39:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Err... how am I meant to link to a portion of an episode of a TV show?
18:39:40 <ehird> I got the transcript from IMDB.
18:40:08 <AnMaster> ehird, this is too correct to be on a TV show. On TV it is all about hackers hammering the keyboard and seeing the image of the screen on their face.
18:41:16 <AnMaster> btw, that "see the image of the screen on their face". How is that supposed to work? As far as I know even from CRTs the light is emitted in more than one direction
18:41:26 <ehird> AnMaster: holoscreens.
18:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: And to offset the accuracy of the quote, here's a dose of irony:
18:42:07 <ehird> "In a first for Channel 4, each episode of the first series was available for download via the station's web site for the seven days preceding its initial TV broadcast. Downloads were only available for UK and Ireland viewers and were supplied in Windows Media Video format. All but the first two episodes were encoded with DRM restrictions."
18:42:09 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't make sense for non-sci-fi movies though.
18:42:23 <ehird> and computers in movies generally don't :-P
18:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, but that system call mention did make complete sense!
18:42:51 <AnMaster> I assume it is a windows driver
18:42:51 <ehird> Bit of cognitive dissonance here I see.
18:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just having a hard time coming to terms with _accurate_ computers on TV...
18:43:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:43:31 <ehird> Maybe you should have a nice relaxing sleep instead of thinking about it ;-)
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19:06:08 <fungot> asiekierka: there is not funny and that they would not have i ' twisted' now? oh, and he maintains that he cycled the throttle quadrant full up and the copilot pierre mazieres ( 10836 flight hours).
19:06:17 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
19:06:24 <asiekierka> doh, forgot to turn on the youtube comment style
19:07:40 <asiekierka> also, the youtube comment method is nice
19:07:57 <asiekierka> The Fun Thing About Youtube Comments #1: They can be used to generate new youtube comments!
19:07:58 <oklopol> bye for now, need to let a friend in.
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19:26:21 <fizzie> I saw an episode of that IT crowd thing the-day-before-yesterday; hadn't even heard about it before.
19:27:32 <fizzie> YLE, our local BBC equivalent, is even broadcasting it; but we don't have a television-machine any more.
19:27:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how many times have you ordered stuff online?
19:27:57 <bsmntbombdood> it's been en route to commerce city for like a year
19:28:23 <fizzie> Yes, well, http://xkcd.com/281/
19:28:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i bet you haven't done it much before or you'd expect this :p
19:28:56 <fizzie> I certainly was reloading the package-tracking page of that new router-box every five minutes or so.
19:30:06 <AnMaster> ehird, in R5RS. What is the name of stdout? I couldn't find it in the spec.
19:30:15 <AnMaster> I mean to treat it as a file for IO purposes.
19:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: A file? No such thing. Do you want a port?
19:30:43 <ehird> AnMaster: (current-output-port)
19:31:04 <ehird> (I don't think you can actually change it in R5RS, heh.)
19:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I want the same code for output to stdout and to a file. And that would work.
19:31:24 <fizzie> ehird: Sure you can; call-with-output-file alters the (current-output-port).
19:31:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It works ok most of the time. R5RS isn't really designed for IO heavy stuff.
19:31:25 <AnMaster> ehird, um, using the other with output thing right?
19:31:30 <ehird> fizzie: Ah. True enough.
19:31:41 <ehird> I forgot what those things did.
19:31:55 <ehird> Also, shouldn't we be like Riastradh? Procedure names are IN-UPPERCASE-ALWAYS.
19:32:50 <bsmntbombdood> and to be fair, he doesn't capitalize them in normal code
19:32:54 <ehird> he does it in documentation
19:33:15 <fizzie> Er, right, I meant with-output-to-file; call-with-output-file is the one that calls the provided procedure with the port as the argument.
19:33:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Famous #scheme-er.
19:33:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: If you can stand him, I guess.
19:34:13 <ehird> IME reading R5RS & the impl's docs & googling is more helpful than #scheme.
19:34:41 <fizzie> http://community.schemewiki.org/?riastradh has all the known information about him. Well, maybe not quite all.
19:37:52 <ehird> First Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics
19:37:53 <ehird> All conversations eventually degenerate to bot abuse.
19:37:53 <ehird> Second Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics
19:37:56 <ehird> All bot abuse eventually degenerates to yow!
19:37:57 <ehird> Third Law of #scheme Convo-Dynamics
19:38:02 <ehird> Never abuse the bots so that they will flood the channel.
19:38:06 <ehird> We obey the first :-P
19:38:11 <ehird> And might obey the second if we had a lambdabot.
19:38:16 <ehird> But #3 is the devil.
19:38:25 <fungot> asiekierka: what, even if the plane to land on it it was doing a google search for air france 296.
19:38:42 <ehird> although plain works too
19:40:19 <fungot> asiekierka: can't the french government. the autoland is a list of plane at the station, then i am wrong, but this was not programmed into the conversation is that there were 130 passengers for one of their planes crash cuz autopilot cantot be overided controled remotly. it was not ' wud', and he never married and always hung out around guys.
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19:40:43 <asiekierka> First Law of YouTube Comments (Schrodinger's Comment):
19:40:56 <asiekierka> Before you read a Youtube comment, it's in a state of both good and bad.
19:41:09 <asiekierka> Combining YouTube Comments creates a new YouTube Comment.
19:41:33 <asiekierka> They create great bot databases, thanks to law #2
19:41:43 <fungot> asiekierka: search google for " remote controlled, they scramble when ever anyone brings up a little over 3,000. granted, any crash is unacceptable but i think
19:41:54 <fizzie> I rather like the Fisher transcribed telephone speech corpus; at least it sounds like conversation.
19:41:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
19:42:15 <fizzie> I only had the script for FF7.
19:42:29 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:42:45 <asiekierka> and fizzie, should I send you the better version of the YouTube Comment pack (150kb larger)
19:42:48 <ehird> fizzie: grep -r '.* [\d:]+ <fungot>.*' | maekfungotdb
19:42:48 <fungot> ehird: lol that was flippen hilarious! i guess its a plane
19:42:54 <fungot> ehird: we all know this accident is similar to the families of the majority survived.
19:42:57 <fizzie> Sure, if you want it updated.
19:42:58 <fungot> ehird: but there is no way similar to the plane
19:43:05 <asiekierka> AND the "Map the 64" one with the :: Blah :: stuff removed
19:43:07 <ehird> fungot: indeed. just like buddha
19:43:07 <fungot> ehird: lmfao! xd lol!! :) the speed bled off. i'm going to fly was changed at the trees.
19:44:23 <ehird> "EU to Charge Intel with Anti-Competitive Acts"
19:44:24 <ehird> "AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - EU antitrust regulators are expected to say this week that Intel Corp illegally paid computer makers to postpone or cancel the launch of products containing chips made by its main rival, sources familiar with the case said on Sunday. "
19:45:08 <ehird> "In committing the first violation, Intel set percentages of its own chips that it wanted PC makers to use, the sources said. " Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the makers _agree_?
19:46:16 <ehird> asiekierka: just screenscrape yt
19:46:55 <asiekierka> then removing the beginning and the end
19:47:04 <ehird> just automate it with a script.
19:51:14 <ehird> asiekierka: automate the loading of the pages and extracting the comments too
19:55:35 <asiekierka> If you have any specific requests for comments from videos
19:55:40 <asiekierka> if you think they're useful or just funny
19:56:25 <ehird> "No Inverses for Injective but Non-Surjective Functions?"
19:57:25 <asiekierka> i'm taking comments from a variety of videos
19:57:36 <ehird> I'm not talking about that
19:58:56 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb].
20:05:33 <fizzie> Well, there's an updated juutuubery style in fungot now.
20:05:44 <fizzie> fungot: It's not that funny, really.
20:05:45 <fungot> fizzie: lol wow that was shooting at it" and enjoy knowledge. or if its a retard! controlled crash
20:05:49 <fungot> ehird: i thought it would). its a terrorst training video we better get gwb on to another crash
20:05:57 <ehird> we better get gwb on to another crash?
20:06:03 <ehird> That sounds post-treasonist, fungot.
20:06:04 <fungot> ehird: scary...... i got tits up on the ' tenor' roles... no matter what she wants to be a tomboy and then whazamm first language eitherl, so, then it's trying to land, gear down at an airshow
20:06:39 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, it is rather youtube indeed.
20:09:17 <fizzie> The C64 text is again tricky since it doesn't have clear separation between paragraphs; if I just feed it as-is, it learns the line-breaks as reasonable spots for starting/stopping a quote, and then it is very abrupt. For book-use I should probably have a script that'd heuristize sentences based on plausible "."s and put START/END tokens in place with that.
20:10:34 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
20:10:36 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
20:10:43 <fungot> asie[brb]: yeah, that was insane!! try to be so hard on ed he really can go into a forest at over 200mph? wikipedia should not be allowed to show that the movie
20:10:56 <fizzie> It does seem to have a two-space indentation at the start of most paragraphs, maybe I could use that.
20:11:12 <asie[brb]> fizzie: and yes it IS youtube comments
20:11:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, how many did you base it on
20:11:53 <asie[brb]> AnMaster: I made the youtube style thing
20:12:07 <asie[brb]> And I don't know but it has about 6878 lines ATM
20:12:14 <ehird> AnMaster: not many. He did it manually.
20:12:31 <ehird> Yes, he did it to bad.
20:12:46 <AnMaster> asie[brb], you should be able to script it, parsing the html
20:12:50 <fizzie> That's some 500k of text, still; it's not the smallest language model there is.
20:13:04 <AnMaster> doing it by hand is just wasted work.
20:13:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is the largest and smallest?
20:13:21 <asie[brb]> I copy-paste it and remove the beginning and end by hand
20:13:24 <fizzie> "irc" is the largest; "europarl" second.
20:13:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I've told him this, but the secret is that asie[brb] can't really code properly.
20:13:33 <asie[brb]> then i parse it through a series of sed commands
20:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ah right. Forgot that...
20:13:46 <asie[brb]> ehird: yes i can, but i'm too lazy
20:13:49 <ehird> ... the sed commands being written by fizzie and ... Deewiant? Iirc.
20:14:04 <AnMaster> um. You could just remove said beginning/end with sed too
20:14:09 <fizzie> The "ic" intercal style is the smallest. (These are generated model sizes, which depend on the N in n-gram; I don't have the original sizes handy.)
20:14:22 <ehird> fizzie: surely the wp talk: would be biggest raw; you had to use a cluster, right?
20:14:34 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
20:14:37 <fungot> asie[brb]: w018 that was modified with `maybe' is atomic with the status of being unlike any other given type).
20:14:55 <AnMaster> "status of being unlike any other given type" :D
20:14:57 <asie[brb]> I must make an Engrish language model
20:15:03 <asie[brb]> and maybe a Polish language model too
20:15:07 <fizzie> ehird: I probably used a smaller n-gram length there. And it's only 1/256ths of Talk: pages; that's not much. But yes, I think I had to run something on the larger-memory machines at work.
20:15:23 <ehird> fizzie: how much power does the cluster have?
20:15:59 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it's no huge thing. I think there's.. about 80 cores in it; 20*2 + 10*4. Let's see what sort of hardware.
20:16:00 <asie[brb]> Also, I wonder whether will you put up the source
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20:16:30 <ehird> fizzie: That's huge enough for me ;-)
20:16:38 <fizzie> For really hard-core computation we're encouraged to use csc.fi's ("center for scientific computation" or something) resources.
20:16:53 <ehird> Eh, just buy a CX1 :-P
20:17:09 <ehird> (Cray's "On-Your-Desktop" supercomputer thing; just a load of powerful Xeons stuck together.)
20:17:13 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:17:21 <ehird> (http://www.cray.com/products/CX1.aspx)
20:17:32 <asie[brb]> fizzie: Now try 1/64ths of Talk pages!
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20:17:51 <asie[brb]> also, put an Oxford English dictionary or something to it
20:18:01 <asie[brb]> along with the Megahal .TRN file containing simple sentences
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20:18:51 <AnMaster> ehird, question: If a function in Scheme has no useful return value, what is the idiomatic return value to use?
20:18:58 <AnMaster> As for that output one for example.
20:19:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Just Don't Think About It.
20:19:13 <fizzie> ehird: There's: "20 IBM eServer 325: 2 x AMD Opteron 248 (2.2 GHz, 1 MB of L2 cache), 4 GB of memory in 16 nodes, 12 GB in 4" (the old set) plus "10 Dell PowerEdge SC1435: 2 x AMD Opteron SE 2220 (2.8 GHz, 2 MB cache), 16 GB of memory"; the later Opterons are dual-core things, so that's 40 cores from there even though there are only 10 nodes.
20:19:17 <ehird> Let the last call drop through; if it's an output call, it'll DTRT, AnMaster.
20:19:22 <fizzie> It's not a *that* new cluster, after all.
20:19:31 <ehird> If you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally need an explicit "NOTHING LOL", do (if #f #f).
20:19:55 <AnMaster> ehird, except it is the then branch of the (if (null? tree) return (output stuff and tail recurse))
20:19:57 <ehird> (The result being "unspecific", which is what R5RS calls it's-like,-whatever return values.)
20:20:12 <ehird> AnMaster: (if (not (null? tree)) output stuff and tail recurse)
20:20:17 <fizzie> Deewiant could probably enumerate what sort of a cluster the TCS lab, which is nowadays part of the same department (but with the computer systems still partially separate), has.
20:20:21 <ehird> if it is null, the if returns an unspecific value, which is what you want.
20:20:44 <ehird> 20:19 fizzie: ehird: There's: "20 IBM eServer 325: 2 x AMD Opteron 248 (2.2 GHz, 1 MB of L2 cache), 4 GB of memory in 16 nodes, 12 GB in 4" (the old set) plus "10 Dell PowerEdge SC1435: 2 x AMD Opteron SE 2220 (2.8 GHz, 2 MB cache), 16 GB of memory"; the later Opterons are dual-core things, so that's 40 cores from there even though there are only 10 nodes.
20:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, except mzscheme complains if you don't have an else branch... And I'm trying to make it portable.
20:20:48 <ehird> ah okay that's pretty regular
20:20:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "Complains"?
20:20:59 <ehird> If it rejects the code, it is R5RS-incompliant.
20:21:02 <ehird> It is perfectly valid, proper code.
20:21:09 <AnMaster> readline::7: if: bad syntax (must have an "else" expression) in: (if (#t) #f)
20:21:10 <ehird> MzScheme can whine if it wants; it's perfectly normal.
20:21:12 <fizzie> mzscheme needs to be run as "r5rs" to work sensibly nowadays.
20:21:15 <AnMaster> like that, except not for the REPL
20:21:22 <ehird> What fizzie said, btw.
20:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, just as a short example
20:21:29 <ehird> MzScheme is not R5RS, AnMaster.
20:21:34 <ehird> For instance, it uses immutable conses by default.
20:21:36 <fizzie> Except it doesn't really work sensibly as "r5rs" either, I guess.
20:21:43 <fizzie> But it's closer, anyway.
20:21:43 <ehird> Using its default mode on R5RS code is just retarded. Don't do it.
20:22:09 <fizzie> That "every if must have an else" is very silly, though.
20:22:32 <ehird> It seems like the PLT people want an almost-purely-functional language based on Scheme, really.
20:24:32 <AnMaster> something is seriously messed up
20:24:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah. Don't do that, then.
20:24:36 <ehird> Here's my s48 alias:
20:24:37 <fizzie> The TCS cluster, which is I guess part of our department now at least in a bureaucratic sense, even if not in practice, adds another ten nodes of 2*2-core Xeon 5130 computers.
20:24:40 <ehird> s48='rlwrap -i -q '\''"\'\'' scheme48'
20:25:18 <AnMaster> rlwrap: error: unknown option -- q
20:25:20 <AnMaster> try 'rlwrap --help' for more information
20:25:35 <ehird> Don't say fail when it's your own damn fault.
20:26:41 <ehird> AnMaster: % rlwrap -i -q \'\" scheme48
20:26:45 <ehird> if it doesn't work, I don't know
20:27:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that -q supposed to do
20:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: quote characters.
20:27:20 <ehird> Although it's wrong, ' is not a quote character.
20:27:28 <ehird> rlwrap -i -q \" scheme48 is right
20:27:32 <ehird> AnMaster: rlwrap --help
20:27:35 <ehird> and pastebin the output
20:27:49 <ehird> (Also, Scheme 48 REPL tip: if your prompt starts with a number, ^D. You're in an error level.)
20:28:10 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/5F6pcE97.html
20:28:19 <ehird> -q <chars> --quote-characters=<chars>
20:28:26 <ehird> How exactly are you running rlwrap?
20:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. seems it was an issue with unicode and ISO-whatever causing a hidden half unicode char on the input line
20:29:32 <AnMaster> like you know. konsole set to UTF-8, and the wrong locale
20:29:56 <AnMaster> wrong locale due to messing with that before today when some app needed C locale (but reported yeah!)
20:30:07 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, `rlwrap -i -q '"' scheme48` in $PATH/s48 or alias s48="rlwrap -i -q '\"\' scheme48" in .profile, then you can just don't-worry-be-happy
20:30:26 <ehird> AnMaster: But you should be using the REPL from Emacs.
20:30:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't like that quack. Tried it
20:30:46 <ehird> So just use inferior-scheme.
20:30:59 <AnMaster> oh the normal scheme mode. Right
20:31:10 <ehird> What you get by doing C-c C-l in scheme-mode.
20:32:08 <AnMaster> ehird, when I disable my own binding of C-c C-l in .emacs it says it isn't bound.
20:32:26 <ehird> Hmm. What was the keybindng.
20:33:07 <AnMaster> it is "search this line on google in w3m-mode, open new w3m buffer if none found"
20:33:37 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I rather like drscheme's scheme editing mode.
20:33:46 <ehird> fizzie: do you recall what the load-this-file-in-repl command was in emacs?
20:34:12 <fizzie> I'm so very not an Emacser that I don't.
20:34:21 -!- fungot has quit ("just a moment").
20:35:01 -!- fungot has joined.
20:35:35 <fizzie> "An alcohol induced bout of sickness that occurs immediately after you awaken from the fuzzy night. AKA a hangover." Yes.
20:35:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you enumerate the list of styles in fungot?
20:35:38 <fungot> AnMaster: jsr listen basic to make the transition from having a dollar sign ():
20:36:00 <AnMaster> I don't remember any "list files in directory"
20:36:04 <ehird> AnMaster: C-c C-l.
20:36:10 <fizzie> There's a file it reads them and the descriptions from.
20:36:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I said it didn't do it!
20:36:32 <ehird> It may be a Quack thing.
20:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster: M-x run-scheme, anyway.
20:37:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it is activated with quack yes. But I didn't like quack. It had a "tab is evil option" but no "space is evil" option :P
20:37:31 <ehird> You can't indent Scheme code with just tabs, AnMaster.
20:37:37 * AnMaster is a hard-core "tab for indent, space for adjustment"
20:37:48 <ehird> So what's the problem with Quack?
20:37:54 <fizzie> It actually "i"s in the "styles.list" file; the file needs to contain real \0s to terminate the names and the list, since they're directly read with STRN/G and such. It makes it a bit trickier to edit, but much friendlier for the Funge-98 code to use.
20:38:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well also it didn't do what I wanted
20:38:15 <AnMaster> don't remember exactly what. It was yesterday!
20:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: it lacks a feature you want, so you remove it, thus having even less features and still not the one you want.
20:39:07 <AnMaster> ehird, try tab on a line with a comment
20:39:12 <AnMaster> it indents it to the other margin
20:39:22 <ehird> ... so disable that?
20:39:24 <AnMaster> rather than aligning it properly with the code
20:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't find that option
20:39:38 <ehird> Oh come on, the file is tiny.
20:39:40 <ehird> Just change the binding.
20:40:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm looking in customise buffer duh :P
20:40:30 <AnMaster> ehird, too much work. I'm happy using normal scheme mode, or drscheme
20:40:42 <fizzie> You can also just use a different amount of ;s.
20:40:43 <ehird> Then don't ask me to help?
20:40:48 <ehird> And what fizzie said.
20:40:51 <ehird> You're probably doin it rong.
20:41:00 <fizzie> Single ;s indent to margin, ;;s to the "code place", and ;;;s to first column. Or some such thing.
20:41:10 <fizzie> Though of course not everyone likes that system.
20:41:18 <ehird> It's the more or less standard, though.
20:41:30 <ehird> ;; for normal comments is ubiquitous; so's the ;;; for "global" comments.
20:41:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the ; one then?
20:41:53 <ehird> Generally not used much.
20:42:00 <ehird> You probably don't have to.
20:42:42 <AnMaster> ehird, drscheme indents all to the code's place
20:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, "<fizzie> Though of course not everyone likes that system."
20:42:59 <ehird> In general, ;;; never goes inside of code.
20:43:05 <ehird> So DrScheme would DTRT.
20:44:39 <AnMaster> the amount of bass sound you get would depend mostly on the speaker right? Or does the sound card also affect it?
20:44:50 <AnMaster> I don't really know that sort of stuff.
20:45:11 <ehird> It depends on using Monster(TM) Cable(R)s.
20:45:23 <fizzie> There was also some commentifying system with meaningful four-;;;; comments, but I've forgotten what those meant. Probably some sort of module-level comments, whereas you can use ;;;s outside "top-level" (define)s.
20:45:36 <ehird> fizzie: ;;;; is top-of-file-header comment
20:45:41 <ehird> description, copyright etc
20:45:48 <AnMaster> ehird, um wouldn't that be ;;; ?
20:45:51 <ehird> ;;; is column-one commenty thingies
20:45:56 <ehird> ;; is code-y commenties
20:46:02 <ehird> ; is in-line commenties, although I rarely see that.
20:46:51 <AnMaster> erlang uses %%% for top-of file, %% for function, % for inline.
20:47:02 <AnMaster> inline being "indented to code"
20:47:13 <ehird> By inline I mean on-the-same-line-as-some-code.
20:47:33 <ehird> ;;; Now we must recalculate the
20:47:36 <AnMaster> ehird, in erlang that is more or less bad style
20:47:39 <ehird> ;;; jickobobs. To do this we floob.
20:47:49 <ehird> ;;;; Calculates dinky-donks. (C) Elliott Hird 2009 Mega-Proprietary
20:48:02 <AnMaster> in fact I always disliked "same line as code"
20:48:11 <ehird> I don't like it either; that's why I don't do it.
20:48:13 <ehird> It's not very common.
20:48:15 <fizzie> You can probably just convert your Erlang %s into ;s and add one ; more, and skip using single-;s at all.
20:48:33 <ehird> fizzie: Except for the ;;;; summary of file vs ;;; summary of section thing.
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20:49:08 <fizzie> Boxed with ;;;s gives a pleasant stipply stipple.
20:49:27 <ehird> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
20:49:27 <ehird> ;;; stipply stipple ;;;
20:49:28 <ehird> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
20:49:56 <fizzie> It's like a shaded rectangle, except not at all.
20:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/cps.scm Here's some code that demonstrates the basic commenty style.
20:50:26 -!- puzzlet has joined.
20:51:06 <ehird> '(ANMASTER THIS IS FROM THE ORIGINAL SCHEME COMPILER RABBIT IT IS IN UPPER CASE http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/rabbit.scm)
20:51:25 <ehird> '(IT IS VERY THE UGLY)
20:52:11 <ehird> '(DOES THIS RUN GRACENOTES)
20:52:57 <AnMaster> hilarious. kate's syntax highlighting of scheme fails on upper-case DECLARE
20:53:16 <ehird> DECLARE ISN'T ACTUALLY IN SCHEME AnMaster.
20:53:29 <ehird> ACTUALLY THAT RABBIT THING IS IN LISP I THINK
20:53:33 <ehird> I THINK IT MODIFIED MACLISP TO BE SCHEME
20:53:43 <ehird> ALTHOUGH I'M NOT SURE; IT'S JUST WEIRD.
20:53:52 <ehird> -*-FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-*-
20:53:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is what I said. kate doesn't interpret emacs style mode lines
20:54:08 <ehird> UPPER CASE LETTERS WERE INVENTED IN 1985
20:55:05 <AnMaster> where the hell is the lisp one in kate -_-
20:55:27 <ehird> AnMaster: There's no such thing as "Lisp"
20:55:35 <ehird> I think that file is Scheme, but with lots of MACLISP features.
20:55:40 <ehird> Since RABBIT was written in MACLISP.
20:56:03 <Gracenotes> EHIRD I THINK THE TERM YOU DESIRE IS "MAJUSCULE"
20:56:09 <Gracenotes> THE TERM EVERYONE DESIRES IS "MAJUSCULE"
20:56:18 <ehird> I DESIRE YOUR MAJUSCULENESS
20:56:40 <fizzie> OOH YOU ARE SUCH A MAJUSCULE MAN.
20:56:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it fails at upper-case DEFINE too
20:56:51 <ehird> TIME FOR A MAJUSCULE ORGY, I THINK.
20:56:55 <AnMaster> but manages lower case define fine
20:57:11 <ehird> AnMaster: PLEASE SHUT UP WE ARE BUSY HAVING AN ORGY.
20:57:19 <ehird> EVEN IF THOSE TWO HAVEN'T REALISED IT YET.
20:58:00 <fizzie> You people can make even uppercase letters sound dirty. It must be some sort of gift.
20:58:23 <ehird> GREASED (MAJUSCULE) CAPITAL LETTERS
20:58:41 <ehird> Gracenotes: WE ARE MINISCULE MEN IN A MAJUSCULE ORGY ... THAT OF LIFE
20:59:32 <ehird> ... I'M PRETTY DEEP
21:03:19 <fizzie> ^ul ((MAJU )(scule ))(~:^:S~:S*a~^*a*~:^):^
21:03:19 <fungot> scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU scule scule MAJU scule MAJU MAJU scule scule MAJU MAJU scule MAJU ...too much output!
21:03:39 <Gracenotes> okay... I'm 30 minutes in to Primer and I understand it so far
21:04:02 <Gracenotes> I do not anticipate feeling this way in another 30 minutes, but, whateva.
21:07:42 -!- freakcrow has joined.
21:07:56 -!- freakcrow has left (?).
21:08:09 <ehird> Gracenotes: ooh, primer.
21:09:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:15:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:26:16 <ehird> "People were not forced into this style, you can still access your friend’s private members"
21:27:42 <Slereah> I want to access your private member
21:27:47 <ehird> That was the joke.
21:28:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it can compile hello world
21:28:37 <AnMaster> not much optimising yet. Won't be today at least
21:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, with the caveat (sp?): it needs cleaning up really. I'm well aware of that.
21:29:34 <ehird> Caveat is correct.
21:29:50 <AnMaster> like the one-more-nested function than needed in parse
21:29:51 <ehird> I like how you most often say sp when you get a tricky thing correct.
21:30:56 <ehird> that was what i was going for
21:31:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and it might be that I correct with aspell but wasn't sure I selected the right alternative.
21:31:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it needs cleaning up
21:32:01 <ehird> ;;; This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
21:32:01 <ehird> ;;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
21:32:03 <ehird> ;;; the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
21:32:05 <ehird> ;;; (at your option) any later version.
21:32:10 <ehird> GPL 4: All your codes are belong to me.
21:32:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Saw comments starting with single ; that weren't inline; didn't read.
21:33:03 <AnMaster> and the data structure is messy yes, this is because I changed the format in the middle
21:33:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Saw ad-hoc type declarations; didn't read.
21:33:10 <AnMaster> when I found out the original didn't work
21:33:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what ad-hoc one in specific?
21:33:31 <ehird> You're not coding Haskell.
21:33:39 <ehird> ; (func input-list initially-empty-outputlist) => output-list
21:33:45 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
21:34:00 <AnMaster> ehird, Helps me remember what format the function should have
21:34:08 <ehird> Well, it's bad style.
21:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a function passed to that!
21:34:32 <ehird> Because it simply is?
21:34:40 <ehird> int main( int v) {{return v+
21:34:45 <ehird> That's bad C style.
21:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird, suggest a better one in this case
21:34:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it just isn't the convention, ffs
21:35:18 <ehird> AnMaster: A better what.
21:35:23 <AnMaster> ehird, to describe that the function passed to as the parameter func should take two lists and return a list
21:35:31 <AnMaster> with the relevant parameter types
21:35:45 <ehird> Either describe it in plain english or just let the parameter names speak for themselves.
21:35:57 <ehird> Also, your define-recur-then-call recur could be named lets. Also,
21:36:04 <ehird> To steal a phrase you like to use: FAIL.
21:36:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, your define-recur-then-call recur could be named lets. <-- could yes. But why should be?
21:36:22 <Gracenotes> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
21:36:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Because that's what named lets are designed for!
21:36:42 <ehird> I'm assuming you don't know what a named let is.
21:36:42 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> ehird, with the caveat (sp?): it needs cleaning up really. I'm well aware of that.
21:36:51 <AnMaster> yes it needs cleaning up. I'm well aware of that.
21:36:58 <ehird> if I'm reading some code, I'm going to comment on what's wrong with it.
21:37:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I shouldn't have pasted it clearly.
21:37:40 <ehird> Indeed. Your code is a panacea; the very mark of good style and clearly all differences are flaws on the part of the differer.
21:38:37 <ehird> And "I know it needs a cleanup" is silly, since you've evidently not noticed some of the things I've pointed out, since you've challenged them.
21:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no. But I already said it needed cleaning up. And I know what named let is. I just find this way clearer. Since it is what SICP used.
21:39:23 <AnMaster> I don't remember seeing named let in SICP
21:39:31 <ehird> SICP uses a minimal set of Scheme because it is a teaching material.
21:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so? I learned scheme from that :P. And fixnum.
21:40:07 <ehird> Scheme in Fixnum days?
21:40:10 <ehird> That book is terrible.
21:40:16 <ehird> What it implements is nothing close to Scheme semantics.
21:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you recommended it back then
21:40:32 <ehird> And SICP is not how you learn how to write Scheme.
21:40:40 <ehird> I was thinking about another scheme-fixnum
21:40:55 <ehird> There's a tutorial called build yourself a scheme in 48 hours, or something.
21:41:01 <ehird> My brain s/48/fixnum/ for some reason.
21:41:09 <AnMaster> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html
21:41:23 <ehird> Anyway, SICP isn't how you learn to write Scheme; it's how you learn the concepts behind it.
21:41:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But the coding style stuck :P
21:41:49 <ehird> SICP's coding style is fine for its minimal subset.
21:44:40 <AnMaster> suire.... But the coding style _stuck_.
21:44:49 <ehird> I thought you said "suck".
21:45:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have said "sucks" then wouldn't I?
21:45:37 <ehird> It's not the first time you've made a similar mistake
21:45:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that is because my s-key is kind of "wonky" (right word?)
21:46:12 <ehird> That's fine. Also "shitty" :p
21:46:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I plan to get a new keyboard
21:47:23 <ehird> Get a Model M or something :p
21:47:35 <ehird> If you don't mind the noise and have strong fingers, the Model M is excellent.
21:47:47 <ehird> I do mind the noise and have weak fingers so it's not perfect for me.
21:48:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I have strong fingers. I do mind the noise. I would prefer not to have to have my hands straight ahead when typing, instead of in the shape of a triangle (seen from above)
21:49:04 <AnMaster> and yes I'm using a standard full size keyboard
21:49:13 <ehird> My hands are pretty triangulary with this regular keyboard.
21:49:31 <ehird> Also, the noise isn't as bad as you may be lead to believe; you can buy mechanical tactile-but-no-noise kbs, too.
21:49:44 <AnMaster> the arms in a triangular shape with yourself as the base of the triangle
21:50:15 <ehird> That's what I have.
21:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried a split keyboard recently. It was AWESOEM
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ehird, have you ever used one of those split ones?
21:51:13 <AnMaster> and yes it should have the mechanical feeling if possible
21:51:16 <ehird> It's not how I use a keyboard; my hands collaborate on both sides.
21:52:41 <ehird> I ripped/listened to a CD today too, but probably not anything anybody here likes :p
21:52:45 <AnMaster> you know really good music? Special feeling
21:53:10 <ehird> Slereah: I need your scientific prowess.
21:53:18 <ehird> It seems AnMaster has discovered how to convert porn into audial form.
21:53:23 <ehird> Research will commence immediately.
21:53:34 * AnMaster tries to figure out "gåshud" in English
21:53:43 <AnMaster> it is when the hairs on your body stand up
21:54:10 <AnMaster> the Swedish one is "gose skin"
21:54:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you can get goosebumps from really good music. Music that really touches your mind and feelings.
21:54:42 <ehird> Technically it's called piloerection.
21:54:52 <ehird> So I guess you get it if you're a pillow with an erection.
21:54:57 <ehird> Don't quote me on that one.
21:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, but you know what I mean about music giving that right?
21:55:39 <ehird> [that sounds like gregor]
21:55:48 <AnMaster> well these four CDs have been giving that on every track so far!
21:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, Britney spears does that to you.
21:56:21 <ehird> Kraus was reincarnated as Britney Spears.
21:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: It stands to reason.
21:57:06 <AnMaster> this has a very strong feeling of Sturm und Drang.
21:58:44 <ehird> Schnitzel of the glorben.
21:59:01 <AnMaster> I don't know what "glorben" is
21:59:01 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for Glorbenschnitzel.
21:59:16 <AnMaster> Did you mean: define:Globen Schnitzel
21:59:20 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for Globen Schnitzel.
21:59:49 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for Glorben.
21:59:53 <AnMaster> Definitions of Globen on the Web:
21:59:53 <AnMaster> The Stockholm Globe Arena or, in Swedish, Globen ("The Globe") is the national indoor arena in Stockholm Globe City, Sweden.
22:00:04 <fizzie> "mennä kananlihalle" is the Finnish version of getting goosebumps, which directly translates to something like "go/turn to chicken flesh".
22:00:18 <ehird> Schnitzel is "that-was-schnitzel-of-the-intaking"
22:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you meant a schnitzel from globen!?
22:00:43 <AnMaster> isn't schnitzel some sort of bread
22:00:58 <AnMaster> well, it would feed a lot of people
22:01:04 <AnMaster> considering how large Globen is
22:01:21 <AnMaster> lets just say: Best viewed from a moderate distance
22:02:02 <ehird> Yes. It's from the poem "Globen Schnitzel":
22:02:02 <ehird> Globen- schnitzel,
22:02:03 <ehird> of-the-feeding crowd,
22:02:05 <ehird> the-intaking-of- schnitzel,
22:02:07 <ehird> Schnitzel of globen.
22:02:27 <ehird> Tell that to Haurenhoff, the author.
22:03:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you are making that up still
22:03:14 <ehird> Here's the moving verse two:
22:03:15 <ehird> That would be schnitzel,
22:03:16 <ehird> Yes the-feeding-of from
22:03:18 <ehird> the Globen beseech-to-see-not
22:03:20 <ehird> the evils, unto you,
22:03:24 <ehird> Of course, this is all translated from Ancient Hartunian
22:03:31 <ehird> Some elements of subtlety may be lost in the process.
22:04:23 <ehird> Svettekelte on to which
22:04:23 <ehird> we see, here-today
22:04:25 <ehird> For the globen of giving
22:04:29 <ehird> a globen schnitzel
22:05:35 <ehird> And thusly, we see,
22:05:37 <ehird> globen schnitzel -
22:05:41 <ehird> Verse four, written shortly after the invention of rhyme.
22:07:50 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ehird: a "Grubenschnitzel" is a box with plastic snippets, used in pole vault
22:08:15 <ehird> KingOfKarlsruhe: A globenschnitzel is like that, except it's in the Globen.
22:08:18 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, wth is "pole vault"
22:08:23 <ehird> It contains bread.
22:08:34 <ehird> Pole vaulting is an athletic field event in which a person uses a long, flexible pole (which today is usually made either of fiberglass or carbon fiber) as an aid to leap over a bar. Pole jumping competitions were known to the ancient Greeks, as well as the Cretans and Celts. It has been a full medal event at the Olympic Games since 1896 for men and since 2000 for women.
22:08:35 <KingOfKarlsruhe> AnMaster: http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&search=stabhochsprung
22:09:11 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, why did you link that
22:09:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:09:17 <ehird> Oh, it's really that? Okay.
22:09:42 <AnMaster> KingOfKarlsruhe, it is just translation
22:10:59 <AnMaster> actually that would be funny. Since the Olympics probably have been played in Globen at some point, what with it being (iirc) the largest sports arena in Sweden.
22:11:10 <AnMaster> not that I care much about sports
22:13:04 <AnMaster> time for the next bf-to-C compiler: in-between
22:14:28 <AnMaster> so it can output both C and Erlang and so on
22:18:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:00 <EgoBot> 60 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>++.>.<-.>----.>--. [678]
22:21:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, but really I'm not aiming as high are esotope-bf
22:21:37 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you need to update optimising page iirc. It seems you optimise more now?
22:21:44 <AnMaster> and why are you not using fputs()
22:22:31 <lifthrasiir> and... oh, i thought that fputs prints trailing newline but that wasn't.
22:23:27 <AnMaster> "Esotope Brainfuck compiler is currently written in Python (2.5 or later). It is a part of Esotope project, which plans to give advanced implementation"
22:23:34 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which other ones do you plan
22:23:41 <AnMaster> "of every esoteric programming language."
22:23:55 <AnMaster> you aren't planning to do INTERCAL right?
22:24:00 <AnMaster> and there are some you CAN'T do
22:24:39 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: of course for implementable ones. and that is just a plan; i'm very certain that it will never be finished
22:24:44 <AnMaster> (possibly. Anyway I blame it on whatever line editing is used)
22:25:06 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is it esotope-pyfunge now?
22:25:52 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, will all be in python? :(
22:26:25 <AnMaster> "nor will they nerver be integrated"?
22:26:41 <lifthrasiir> i mean they will never be integrated. sorry.
22:26:43 <AnMaster> double negative detected. Please stand by when parsing.
22:27:13 <lifthrasiir> sometimes i even fail to produce correct statement in my mother tongue!
22:30:04 <ehird> also, do forners really translate from their native language to english and vise versa?
22:30:18 <AnMaster> you know those thin plastic threads found under on some plastic wrappings? that you use to open the wrapping
22:30:35 <ehird> i had to use one of them on the cd i ripped today
22:30:43 <ehird> well i did it yesterday still
22:30:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder who had the bright idea to put it on the outside on this wrapping!
22:31:16 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:31:37 <ehird> it's quite hot here, I wonder if my fans are working hard enoug
22:31:42 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it worked pretty well on the other wrappings. Because it was on the right side.
22:31:43 <ehird> on my computer that is
22:32:08 <ehird> hmm, i wonder if the brain runs hotter if you think more :^)
22:33:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> i had to use one of them on the cd i ripped today <ehird> was a pain <-- so. why was it a pain?
22:34:05 <AnMaster> it wasn't on the outside was it
22:34:12 <ehird> they're just irritating to open
22:34:18 <ehird> you have to find the place, pick at them for ages, then rip
22:34:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the place is usally easy to find if they didn't match up the end perfectly
22:34:41 <AnMaster> they seldom match up perfectly
22:36:01 <AnMaster> however this is rather odd. CD 1: Non-matched up ends. the thread going from top to bottom of the case. CD 2: Non-matched: Thread going from left to right. CD 3: Matched ends. Thread on outside. CD 4: No thread at all. had to get knife to open it with in a corner.
22:45:53 <kerlo> It would be best if everyone admitted that this sentence is true.
22:46:45 <kerlo> To say something that's actually pertinent, I think the brain does indeed run hotter if you think more.
22:59:49 <AnMaster> <kerlo> It would be best if everyone admitted that this sentence is true. <-- why
23:01:48 <kerlo> That sentence is an allegory or a metaphor or a symbol or something.
23:01:52 <kerlo> A satire. A sarcasm.
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00:38:54 <Gracenotes> the first time you watch it, you think things start getting weird 20 minutes before the film ends
00:39:09 <Gracenotes> but really... they start getting weird only 20 minutes after the film begins
00:39:49 <Gracenotes> it's pretty screwed up... and amazing...
00:41:18 <coppro> are there any threading-oriented esolangs?
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00:48:59 <oerjan> coppro: check out http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Concurrent_programming
00:50:56 <oerjan> it's fairly rare, but there might be uncategorized ones
00:52:15 <oerjan> heh Network Headache may be one
00:52:33 <oerjan> (found from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic)
00:54:16 <oerjan> hm SNUSP has a concurrent variant
00:54:25 <oerjan> (found by searching for "thread")
00:54:44 <coppro> of those 4, two are BF variants and two are Befunge-likes
00:55:05 <oerjan> and there is Threaded INTERCAL
00:55:38 <oerjan> coppro: just bad categorization i take
00:56:51 <oerjan> CLoop is parallel but not concurrent (no interaction)
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02:29:39 * pikhq sticks a cockroach on oerjan's keyboard
02:30:45 <oerjan> although i found another ant in the bathroom earlier
02:31:01 <oerjan> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
02:31:04 <pikhq> (it is non-existent; big difference)
02:38:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
02:38:25 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
02:38:27 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
02:38:53 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes
02:40:42 <oerjan> problem is, without newlines it never prints anything, with newlines no one but me will see it
02:41:09 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes
02:42:11 <oerjan> my other fear seems to come true: EgoBot doesn't allow enough time to reach the next iteration
02:43:23 <oerjan> now it doesn't work in my terminal either
02:45:12 <oerjan> huh the slashes interpreter has some trouble with newlines
02:47:18 * oerjan suspects some multiline setting problem
02:49:52 <oerjan> ah indeed missing s options on s///
02:50:12 <oerjan> a backslash followed by newline won't be unescaped
02:51:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
02:51:18 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
02:51:19 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
02:51:28 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes
02:52:11 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes
02:52:44 <oerjan> it now gives _one_ more line (with **) in DCC CHAT
02:53:00 <oerjan> this program is expensive :D
02:53:40 <oerjan> oh well it works in a terminal window
02:58:20 <GregorR> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/counter.slashes
03:01:10 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
03:01:18 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes.pl
03:01:18 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
03:01:35 <oerjan> (my own interp still had an old bug that was fixed on the wiki)
03:02:13 <oerjan> GregorR: do you see anything more than two lines?
03:04:31 <psygnisfive> i think ive built my first generic-ish parser that produces a parse tree. o.o;
03:04:51 <psygnisfive> all my previous parsers were really customized to the language, but this one, no!
03:13:49 * oerjan is busy preparing his slashes program with continuation line breaks
03:14:02 <oerjan> by modifying the haskell generator
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04:48:39 <kerlo> How's that ///ology coming along?
04:48:49 <oerjan> kerlo: see the wiki :) :) :)
04:50:38 <coppro> slashes has so much potential
04:51:03 <oerjan> yeah now my bet is certainly on turing-completeness
04:51:38 <kerlo> And yeah, non-Turing-completeness is kind of hard to imagine at this point.
04:51:54 <kerlo> I guess you win the $500 prize.
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05:58:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
05:58:22 <fungot> asiekierka: another problem is that stop causes the keyboard matrix tables should not exceed the limit. it will " wrap around" back to ascii text of the basic rom.
05:58:39 <asiekierka> fungot: I understand. Now, why would it wrap around?
05:58:39 <fungot> asiekierka: preparatory routines: none note: ror instruction is tacked on to location 894 which is decoded by your program will continue to do this either by hitting the return key
05:58:55 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
05:59:01 <fungot> asiekierka: and if there hadn't been people on board
05:59:09 <fungot> asiekierka: ive seen so many people wher on board this plane hit a forest at 200mph within 4 seconds of data to make a great father... your son seem to suggest, vote on.
05:59:16 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
06:00:09 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
06:03:19 <Sgeo> "Because I'm too busy right now to respond to important emails and update the site in a timely manner, I've taken the majority of the archives down."
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06:06:02 <Sgeo> http://sites.google.com/site/c3dsarchives/
06:12:28 <asiekierka> i'm amazed how no-one made a "twitter" style yet
06:23:00 <asiekierka> so twitter style would have many "twits"
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09:05:35 <fizzie> The messages themselves are "tweets", as I understand it.
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09:29:28 <fizzie> Now you gone went smaller.
09:31:37 <fizzie> Manage the age of man.
09:37:00 <oklopol> sera meganame manage mares <<< makes no sense maybe, but it's the best i could do.
09:43:04 <fizzie> E-manage moon, no omega name.
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09:46:56 <fizzie> I didn't think it was that bad. :/
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12:57:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
12:57:43 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
12:58:44 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's in ignore mode; it only does four or so replies for one particular person consecutively, to make it a bit less annoying for people who try to get something done.
12:59:00 <fizzie> fungot: Walk like a YouTubeian.
12:59:00 <fungot> fizzie: did every body die? sorry but thats just cuz she older and well documented crash but people died! put this in a box, and it wasn't...
12:59:14 <fizzie> There, now you have four replies again.
13:01:29 <asiekierka> well, I just wanted to see if it works
13:02:42 <asiekierka> and also, I just want to make a C64 OS :P
13:04:42 <asiekierka> And I think I finally know how to do it :D
13:07:28 <asiekierka> Well, I first need to have a way to output a single char. Answer: self-modifying code! :D
13:07:40 <asiekierka> well, you can also do it with A and X but nah
13:07:48 <asiekierka> you would still need to output it there anyway
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13:37:47 <AnMaster> Erlang is perfect for a bf optimiser really
13:37:55 <AnMaster> the pattern matching makes it very easy
13:38:07 <AnMaster> + the "multiple entry points to function"
13:38:34 <AnMaster> for example the "combine ++ into +" is:
13:38:36 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V1 }|T],
13:38:36 <AnMaster> [#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 } = A|Result]) ->
13:38:36 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]);
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14:33:10 <tombom> fungot: what does this do
14:33:10 <fungot> tombom: megadeth is who plays the role heath ledger plays in the movie?
14:36:16 <ehird> haven't seen you around
14:38:54 <ehird> slashes is totally a reverse ripoff of my lanaugae
14:40:35 <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/SlashesCounter.hs
14:44:33 <fizzie> It's not just oerjan-coding, but clever coding too. I did have the "use a character which scans through the program" idea too (it's so common in string-rewritingy things) but thought it'd need some looping; but of course it doesn't need to be unbounded there.
14:54:30 <upyr[emacs]> pseudorandom number generator with brainfuck - it's real?
14:55:02 <ehird> upyr[emacs]: Sure. it produces the same results every run, of course ...
14:55:18 <ehird> But the list of results it outputs should be more or less sufficient for pseudorandom purposes.
14:55:54 <asiekierka> I should implement it for my C64 OS later on
14:56:01 <ehird> upyr[emacs]: If you need, say, 1000 random numbers from 0-255, you can just tell the user to run as ((head -c 1000 /dev/urandom && cat) | bf foo.b)
14:56:12 <ehird> and 1000 ,>s at the start of your program
14:56:20 <ehird> but if you don't mind it being the same evry time...
14:59:56 <asiekierka> YOu could pretty much say "PRESS ENTER" and run an infinite loop of pseudorandom generation until the user hits enter
15:00:09 <asiekierka> also, doh, my printing code does not work
15:00:19 <ehird> asiekierka: you can't run code while listening for input
15:00:53 <ehird> this is trivial shit
15:01:37 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | to make fungot talk different use ^style.
15:02:00 -!- ehird has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:02:25 -!- asiekierka has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | to make fungot talk different use ^style.
15:03:39 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
15:03:52 -!- ehird has set topic: international pub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
15:03:53 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
15:03:55 <ehird> everyone knows about ^style
15:04:14 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
15:04:29 <ehird> ^scramble asterisks
15:04:33 <ehird> ^unscramble atrsskies
15:04:48 <ehird> it's the ehird srmlebac algorithm
15:04:53 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
15:05:08 <ehird> asiekierka: scramble is an alias for srmlebac
15:05:15 <ehird> same with unscramble/uenlsbcmra
15:05:23 <ehird> ^scramble uenlsbcmra
15:06:10 <ehird> ^scramble 123456789
15:06:17 <ehird> asiekierka: I did invent the algorithm, you know :P
15:06:25 <ehird> ^unscramble 123456789
15:06:30 <ehird> ^unscramble 12345678
15:07:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/SlashesCounter.hs <-- "-- By �rjan Johansen, May 2009."?
15:07:21 <ehird> AnMaster: What about it?
15:07:33 <ehird> Nope, it's your fail.
15:07:36 <ehird> It slows up perfectly fine for me.
15:08:00 <ehird> It has no charset= in the Content-Type, but oh well.
15:08:02 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe your client auto detect it as "ISO" and uses that.
15:08:11 <ehird> No, in my client it displays wrongly.
15:08:14 <ehird> In my browser it does not.
15:08:20 <ehird> -- By Ørjan Johansen, May 2009.
15:08:24 <asiekierka> ^def ascram bf >>,[>,][[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<]
15:08:24 <ehird> copy/pasting autoconverts
15:08:57 <asiekierka> ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]+[[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<]
15:09:21 <ehird> ^scramble spartans
15:09:23 <ehird> scrambled spartans
15:10:00 <asiekierka> ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[[<]>.[-]>.[-][>]<.[-]<.[-]<]
15:10:30 <fizzie> The server sends "Content-Type: text/x-haskell" with no charset modifier, so it's a bit debatable. Unless Haskell happens to have a well-defined standard encoding?
15:10:43 <fizzie> Oh, ehird mentioned already. Still.
15:11:04 <ehird> Still, there's a lot of mojibake out there if you don't autodetect.
15:11:13 <asiekierka> ^def ascram >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<][>>.<.>]
15:11:14 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
15:11:18 <asiekierka> ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<][>>.<.>]
15:11:35 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
15:12:16 <asiekierka> ^def ascram bf >>,[>,]<[---<-<--<-----<]>[>>.<.>]
15:12:19 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[-3<-<-2<-5<]>[>>.<.>]
15:12:26 <ehird> it looks like a crap algorithm :)
15:13:57 * AnMaster considers non-destructive copy in bf. The shortest I can think of uses one scratch cell: [->+>+<<][+>-<] to copy to the cell two above, and use the one at one above for scratch.
15:15:18 <fungot> asiekierka: i like the old pics!!!!! no way, is it? i did get to me, the pilot if he tries to touch the ground
15:15:30 <fizzie> You don't really need to define commands for testing; you can just use "^bf code!input".
15:15:33 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:15:44 <fizzie> And yes, the cells are 8 bits.
15:15:45 <asiekierka> I'd use egobot but it doesn't support input
15:18:04 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>+++++++++++++[<+++>-]<.!AAAAA
15:18:10 <ehird> 15:15 asiekierka: I'd use egobot but it doesn't support input
15:18:18 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:18:21 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bf!
15:18:28 <ehird> !daemon butt bf ,[.,]
15:18:31 <ehird> !butt on the floor
15:18:42 <ehird> !bf ,[.,]!hmm does this
15:18:55 <ehird> !c printf("butt\n")
15:19:37 <ehird> !c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b)
15:19:38 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>++++++++++++[<++++>-]<.!AAAAA
15:19:44 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[[>+<-]>>+<<,]>.>>++++++++++++[<++++>-]<.!ABCDE
15:19:46 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b)
15:20:42 <EgoBot> Daemon bottles running.
15:20:50 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
15:21:31 <Gracenotes> !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg);
15:21:33 <asiekierka> One day, I should make script-created lists of styles for each individual person on IRC
15:21:37 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout)
15:21:37 <EgoBot> That daemon is already running!
15:21:41 <EgoBot> That interpreter doesn't exist!
15:21:42 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout)
15:21:42 <EgoBot> That daemon is already running!
15:21:55 <asiekierka> there will be a style for Gracenotes, ehird, asiekierka
15:21:55 <fizzie> Kill, don't delinterp.
15:21:59 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout)
15:22:13 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];for(;;){gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout);}
15:22:14 <EgoBot> That daemon is already running!
15:22:17 <ehird> !daemon cs c char b[1024];for(;;){gets(b);puts(b);fflush(stdout);}
15:22:40 <EgoBot> don't play with fire.c
15:22:50 <ehird> Gracenotes: if you have some non-function body stuff you need to declare main()
15:22:56 <EgoBot> can i talk with you, ehird?
15:23:12 <Gracenotes> !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); return 0; }
15:23:14 <EgoBot> ehird: but the plane said so!
15:23:48 <EgoBot> Gracenotes: wtf, plane
15:23:58 <ehird> tombom: asiekierka is controlling him
15:24:00 <ehird> because he thinks it's funny
15:24:05 <EgoBot> tombom: Of epic plane proportions, so but.
15:24:06 <ehird> he does this kind of stuff *a lot*
15:24:25 <EgoBot> aight, let's stop this nonsense
15:24:36 <ehird> !c typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); fflush(stdout); return 0; }
15:24:58 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:25:04 <ehird> !forth ." hello world" cr
15:25:34 <Gracenotes> it works on GCC if I #include <stdio.h>
15:25:57 <fizzie> Based on a hg clone, it does: #include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) { <code from IRC> ; return 0; }
15:26:22 <ehird> fizzie: no, not if you declare things
15:26:31 <fizzie> I didn't see any code related to that, but I might've missed.
15:26:59 <fizzie> !c struct { int omg; } destruction = { 4 }; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); fflush(stdout)
15:27:04 <fizzie> Well, that's a no-go too.
15:28:04 <Gracenotes> !c #include <stdio.h>\n typedef struct { int omg; } WHAT_YOU_SAY; int main() { WHAT_YOU_SAY destruction = { 4}; printf("%d\n", destruction.omg); return 0; }
15:28:42 <tombom> THIS BOT IS NOT VERY GOOD
15:28:52 <ehird> asiekierka probably borken it
15:28:55 <ehird> !perl print "welp\n";
15:30:27 <fizzie> ^ul (left)(one)(this)(have)(just)(we)(now)(~S( )S:^):^
15:30:27 <fungot> now we just have this one left ...out of stack!
15:30:33 <fizzie> (Terminating conditions are so boring.)
15:31:30 <ehird> how large is the stackattack?
15:32:25 <fizzie> Fungot's ^ul stack is ffaa*** characters.
15:32:49 <fizzie> That's the misleading underflow message, though.
15:33:47 <ehird> fizzie: what's the separator?
15:34:09 <Gracenotes> ......................................................................................................................................................
15:34:18 <AnMaster> what would be a good name for an optimiser pass for bf that changes: add, move pointer, add into: add, add offset 1, move pointer
15:34:35 <ehird> that's nothing special
15:34:44 <fizzie> ehird: Actually "\0, I'm sure", since I use STRN's G/P to manipulate, and that does nul-terminated.
15:34:54 <AnMaster> the phrase "store motion pass" pops up but probably isn't relevant.
15:35:19 <ehird> AnMaster: "combine Move-s along the program by pushing them to the end"
15:35:27 <ehird> i'd call it move shifting
15:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and I never said it was special. I just need a short snappy name.
15:35:35 <ehird> fizzie: including the I'm sure?
15:35:42 <ehird> AnMaster: so (define (shift-moves ...
15:35:50 <fizzie> ehird: Yes. It's like Perl's "0 but true".
15:35:58 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I'm not working on after. I'm working on in-between
15:36:21 <ehird> fizzie: does it accept \0s over irc?
15:36:39 <fizzie> You can't send \0s over IRC; it's disallowed by the protocol.
15:36:46 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure how true that is in practice.
15:36:58 <ehird> i'd bloody well find out, except...
15:37:04 <ehird> i forget the key combination
15:37:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm pretty sure it is true
15:37:22 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:37:45 -!- fkjdskfdshjf has joined.
15:38:16 <ehird> just \0 said no text to send
15:41:07 -!- fkjdskfdshjf has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:46:22 <upyr[emacs]> ^bf >++++++[<++++++++>-]>++[<+++++>-]<[<.+>-]
15:47:42 <ehird> * Clang replacing GCC in the base system
15:47:44 <ehird> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2009-May/049873.html
15:47:49 <ehird> god, freebsd is looking hot
15:49:47 <upyr[emacs]> ^bf ++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++.<+++[>----------<-]>.[++++++++++>,----------]<[<]>[>.]!test
15:52:12 <GregorR> * Clang replacing GCC in the base system // so everything is going to be compiled via LLVM? Interesting.
15:52:20 <ehird> GregorR: not everything
15:52:22 <ehird> just the base system
15:52:26 <ehird> user applications will still be gcc'd
15:52:29 <ehird> and I'm not sure about that
15:52:31 <GregorR> Is the kernel part of the base system? :P
15:52:38 <ehird> but base applications
15:52:49 <GregorR> In my experience, compiling a kernel to a virtual machine is probably a fairly pointless task :P
15:52:56 <ehird> GregorR: LLVM fail.
15:52:59 <ehird> It isn't a virtual machine, really.
15:53:05 <tombom> why is it betrter thasn ghcc
15:53:08 <ehird> tombom: a c compiler
15:53:19 <ehird> and because it's faster, cleaner and bsd-licensed
15:53:22 <ehird> and because it builds on top of LLVM
15:53:33 <ehird> which is an intermediate "virtual machine" (notrly) that compiles to native code
15:53:42 <ehird> (it can also do JITting, so you can turn your compiler into a REPL etc)
15:53:46 <tombom> but doesn't gcc have better optimisations and stuff though
15:53:49 <ehird> that wouldn't work for the kernel ofc :p
15:53:57 <ehird> tombom: llvm's been developed by 2000 and is funded by Apple
15:54:01 <ehird> it does advanced optimizations
15:54:08 <tombom> i hadn't realised it had been around so long
15:54:08 <ehird> although they're not totally production-ready yet
15:54:15 <ehird> e.g. clang's c++ support isn't really ready
15:54:35 <ehird> yeah, it will be cool
15:54:52 <ehird> well, apple does more than fund, really; it's practically Apple's project
15:55:02 <ehird> due to a lot of Apple-employed developers
15:55:05 <ehird> it's still technically independent though
15:55:08 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:55:21 <ehird> hmm apparently apple started the clang projec
15:55:33 <ehird> that'd explain the objective-c support
15:56:03 <ehird> tombom: there's also gcc-llvm
15:56:10 <ehird> which is gcc's frontend + llvm's backend; that should be pretty much rock solid
15:56:18 <ehird> although you get a lot of the disadvantages of gcc
15:56:37 <tombom> what are the disadvantages of gcc actually
15:57:21 <ehird> (1) gcc's code sucks (2) so does its architecture (3) it's not all that fast optimizations-wise (4) GPL (5) apparently the team can be hard to work with; don't quote me on this
15:57:38 <ehird> (6) tries to compile every language on the planet; this leads to mediocrity
15:58:01 <ehird> tombom: apparently clang's error messages are miles better too
15:58:02 <tombom> heh, that's reasonable
15:58:10 <ehird> http://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html
15:58:25 <ehird> looks nice, I didn't realise it was THAT good
15:59:08 <ehird> $ clang -fsyntax-only t.cpp
15:59:08 <ehird> t.cpp:12:7: error: incompatible type assigning 'vector<Real>', expected 'std::string' (aka 'class std::basic_string<char>')
15:59:21 <ehird> i thought there was some technical reason for awful c++/stl template errors
15:59:33 <ehird> i will now kill the g++ developers
16:01:26 <ehird> GregorR: The LLVM developers are very helpful fixing most of the bugs we've reported (over 100). Unfortunately we are currently blocked on some bug reports that prevent us from building libc, libm, libcrypto and various CDDL libraries with Clang but the FreeBSD kernel itself compiles and boots.
16:01:30 <ehird> so the kernel is built with it.
16:02:09 <GregorR> Doesn't it need to have a little bit of inline asm?
16:02:18 <ehird> GregorR: Maybe it does?
16:02:23 <ehird> Nothin' wrong with that.
16:02:27 <ehird> GregorR: Protip: LLVM is not a "virtual machine"
16:02:30 <ehird> It's not a VM as such
16:02:34 <ehird> It's just a generic architechture
16:02:42 <ehird> It still has plenty of machine-code like things
16:02:44 <ehird> It's close to the machine
16:02:51 <GregorR> Right ... a generic architecture with its own assembly code variant ...
16:02:56 <ehird> GregorR: Also, you can always compile the .s's separately
16:02:56 <GregorR> So i386 assembly code is presumably no go ....
16:02:59 <ehird> and call into them from .c
16:03:01 <ehird> and who said that?
16:03:09 <ehird> it'll just only work on x86
16:03:49 <ehird> http://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang ← Yep, it does inline asm just fine
16:05:31 <ehird> GregorR: http://www.llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#inlineasm
16:06:01 <ehird> that's referring to llvm asm
16:06:46 <GregorR> I was gonna say, seeing as that bswap is a link to one of their pages :P
16:07:29 <asiekierka> yay, the "print" procedure of Codename CELF is done
16:09:10 <Slereah> There should be a language based on n-tuples of niggers.
16:09:48 * ehird hands Slereah the "Can't Think Of Anything To Say" medal
16:10:41 <ehird> "Clever presentation, but a weak database: The soon-to-be-launched Wolfram Alpha search engine is already being touted as the "Google killer." SPIEGEL ONLINE has tested a preliminary version. The conclusion: It knows a lot about aspirin, a little about culture -- and it thinks German Chancellor Angela Merkel's political party is an airport. "
16:10:45 <asiekierka> ehird: Codename CELF? It's my C64 pseudo-shell/OS
16:10:48 <ehird> http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,624065,00.html
16:10:57 <ehird> asiekierka: in asm I assume?
16:11:29 <asiekierka> if I did it in C it would probably be up to loading a few drivers :DDD
16:11:31 <ehird> Try and avoid spaghetti :-P
16:11:50 <asiekierka> to the ones that aren't quick to understand
16:11:52 <ehird> asiekierka: Meh, just make sure you don't splutter over memory and registers :P
16:12:01 <ehird> asiekierka: How are you gonna handle memory allocation?
16:12:13 <ehird> You only have 64K, so that will be challenging
16:12:23 <ehird> asiekierka: The list will take up a good amount of memory, though
16:12:34 <ehird> Maybe a slab allocator, asiekierka?
16:12:34 <asiekierka> I plan to make it as small as possible
16:12:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_allocator
16:12:49 <ehird> it should conserve memory
16:12:55 <ehird> and also the list size
16:13:26 <asiekierka> Well, I will allocate the space of... $2000-$9000 to programs
16:13:32 <ehird> That's not much at all.
16:13:43 <ehird> I'd give almost all the memory to programs, and golf the kernel's data space.
16:13:52 <ehird> I bet you could give the programs 50K
16:14:01 <asiekierka> the kernel already has space from $0800-$2000
16:14:24 <ehird> asiekierka: Challenge: give the programs 56K or more.
16:14:44 <asiekierka> and raw accessing of stuff via drivers will probably take more
16:14:44 <ehird> And the rest is for programs.
16:14:55 <ehird> asiekierka: It gets 8K.
16:15:05 <GregorR> the clang driver uses gcc for assembling and linking, we need to write FreeBSD ccc "hostinfo" so it can use as(1) and ld(1) directly (in progress).
16:15:07 <pikhq> asiekierka, you should totally do this on x86.
16:15:19 <asiekierka> i'm already turning off the BASIC rom full of crap
16:15:27 <ehird> asiekierka: hmm, okay, the kernel takes 8k
16:15:30 <pikhq> GregorR, why can't it just always use as and ld?
16:15:37 <ehird> then the kernel/drivers take 8K
16:15:38 <asiekierka> then there's a bunch of space for memory-mapped registery
16:15:41 <ehird> that should be more than enough
16:15:42 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that all GCC does is... Call as and ld. ;)
16:15:46 <ehird> and gives the programs about 48K
16:15:47 <GregorR> pikhq: All as-es and ld's have different syntaxes.
16:15:54 <GregorR> pikhq: Whereas GCC has the same syntax on every platform.
16:15:55 <ehird> asiekierka: a bit less than 48K should be doable
16:16:05 <GregorR> ........... you didn't know that? :P
16:16:19 <pikhq> I figured they'd at least standardise on command-line syntax.
16:16:22 <asiekierka> $0000-0800 is used by the screen/kernel
16:16:24 <GregorR> Hell, all ccs have different syntaxes, you're lucky to get "-c" and "-o" to mean the same thing.
16:16:31 <ehird> it's binary format specifci a lot of the time
16:16:35 <pikhq> I don't go outside of GNU-land much.
16:16:47 <ehird> asiekierka: how much does that get you?
16:16:56 <ehird> BSD kernel and userland!
16:17:10 <pikhq> ehird, that's aboust as far out of GNU-land as anyone sane goes.
16:17:12 <ehird> asiekierka: yep, should do
16:17:14 <GregorR> ehird: I will now mark all sarcastic lines with the tag [SARCASM] to remain clear [SARCASM]
16:17:23 <pikhq> Because BSD userland, though a tiny bit different, is at least *sane*.
16:17:24 <asiekierka> remember I also plan to have a "vector map", so drivers can make their own ways of doing stuff
16:17:27 <ehird> pikhq: it predates gnu-land, so it's pretty away.
16:17:38 <ehird> asiekierka: if your kernel turns out to use less in practice - say 8K - the programs can get more too
16:17:43 <GregorR> It predates GNU-land, so it's pretty primitive >_>
16:17:48 <GregorR> Better than Solaris though.
16:17:49 <asiekierka> but i also allocate this space for the maps
16:17:52 <ehird> it's not primitive
16:17:53 <ehird> it's just minimalist
16:18:09 <pikhq> GregorR: BSD userland has the advantage of implementing that primitive stuff well.
16:18:13 <GregorR> If there's one thing the GNU userland is not, it's minimalistic.
16:18:17 <asiekierka> it has all the vars and maps and stuff
16:18:18 <pikhq> Making it better than every other authentic UNIX.
16:18:23 <asiekierka> then comes the kernel (after .align $10)
16:18:27 <ehird> asiekierka: why do you have a notion of variables in asm?
16:18:42 <pikhq> ehird: Asm itself does.
16:18:45 <GregorR> pikhq: Solaris is solid as a rock. The rock it will proceed to beat you over the head with if you're stupid enough to use it.
16:18:50 <asiekierka> so I don't have spaghetti running all over
16:18:53 <ehird> solaris makes me want to vomit
16:19:02 <ehird> asiekierka: i take back what i said about you not being able to code
16:19:11 <pikhq> GregorR: Solaris does have one saving grace.
16:19:12 <asiekierka> ehird: I can send you the ASM code if you still don't believe i can code
16:19:20 <pikhq> Its userland is sufficient for installing a GNU one.
16:19:25 <GregorR> I'm surprised they haven't just replaced the userland with GNU in interactive shells :P
16:19:30 <pikhq> And you can install it with just a GNU userland these days. ;)
16:19:44 <pikhq> OpenSolaris distros.
16:19:45 <GregorR> Oh, are you referring to Nexenta?
16:20:13 <GregorR> Ever since Linux got the CFS, Solaris has no appreciable advantage.
16:20:18 <ehird> asiekierka: i don't understand a thing about the code but it looks good
16:20:25 <ehird> GregorR: One word. Zfs.
16:20:27 <pikhq> http://www.dailycupoftech.com/2009/05/04/the-geek-must-do-before-you-die-checklist/ This is a... Lame list.
16:20:38 <GregorR> God people go humpfest over ZFS.
16:20:41 <ehird> add a third monitor?
16:20:53 <ehird> anyone with >1 monitor is stupid ← generalization
16:20:57 <pikhq> ehird: That was the first thing ported to Linux.
16:21:08 <ehird> Build a Linux Firewall? WHY.
16:21:10 <pikhq> ehird: I've got two monitors.
16:21:19 <GregorR> pikhq: Wow, that is a lame list.
16:21:20 <ehird> I have a perfectly good firewall! It even runs Linux.
16:21:22 <pikhq> The second one is attached to my firewall/outer.
16:21:30 <GregorR> "Carry a Computer Cleaning Arsenal on Your USB Drive" // only if you use lame-OS
16:21:45 <ehird> Build an HTML based Website using Notepad
16:22:00 <ehird> "Bypass a Computer Password on All Major Operating Systems"
16:22:03 <ehird> good luck doing that on a bsd
16:22:14 <pikhq> I did that... For my Geoshitties site before they got bought out by Yahoo!.
16:22:19 <ehird> "Convert Cassette Tapes to Digital Audio Files"
16:22:28 <ehird> "Crack a Wi-Fi Password" ← WPA2 Personal, bitch.
16:22:29 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, seriously. *Really* good luck doing that on OpenBSD.
16:22:34 <tombom> [16:21:45] (ehird): Build an HTML based Website using Notepad
16:22:43 <pikhq> "Compile a Linux kernel".
16:22:44 <ehird> "Create a Disposable E-Mail Account"
16:22:46 <ehird> If you die without doing this
16:22:48 <ehird> YOU HAVE FAILED LIFE
16:22:51 <pikhq> And had been using Slackware for 2 weeks.
16:23:11 <asiekierka> the thing that I sent is nowhere near an OS
16:23:12 <pikhq> "Execute a shell script."
16:23:16 <ehird> asiekierka: i guessed
16:23:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:23:18 <ehird> "Create a WordPress Plugin"
16:23:24 <ehird> What a crock of shit.
16:23:32 <pikhq> I did that a tiny bit *before* I had installed Linux for the first time.
16:23:35 <ehird> "Create Music with Keyboard"
16:23:40 <pikhq> (guess what Slackware's installer is)
16:23:49 <ehird> "Download a Video from YouTube"
16:23:52 <ehird> and it links to an automated shitsite to do that
16:23:56 <tombom> "Create Music with Keyboard"
16:23:58 <ehird> FILL OUT THIS FORM AND YOUR LIFE WILL BE COMPLETE
16:24:00 <tombom> i guessed this was a joke
16:24:01 <ehird> tombom: beat you to it
16:24:11 <ehird> "Download Wikipedia"
16:24:16 <ehird> ...Including images.
16:24:25 <pikhq> "Learn the fastest way to kill a computer."
16:24:32 * pikhq brings out the Etherkiller.
16:24:43 <GregorR> pikhq: Open this list, making you so pissed off you literally beat the shit out of it.
16:25:05 <GregorR> (Computers totally have shit)
16:25:08 <tombom> 39.Know Who Mulder and Scully Arehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulder_and_Scully_(song)
16:25:13 <ehird> "Find a Website IP Address Without Web/CommandPrompt Access"
16:25:24 <ehird> this is the hilariestest thing ever
16:25:35 <ehird> Irrecoverably Protect Datahttp://www.truecrypt.org/
16:26:22 <ehird> Make Your Office Ergonomic
16:26:26 <ehird> Permanently Delete Data on a Hard Drive
16:26:33 <ehird> Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account
16:26:35 <ehird> now THAT i agree with
16:26:35 <ehird> Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account
16:26:36 <ehird> Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account
16:26:38 <ehird> Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account
16:26:49 <tombom> i was just going to mention that
16:26:56 <ehird> "Read 1337 At Normal Speed"
16:27:10 <ehird> "Recover Deleted Files" i like how this comes after telling you to remove them irreversably
16:27:31 <tombom> 50% of them are really pathetic and the other 50% are things nobody should care about
16:27:52 <tombom> "Upload a Video to YouTube"
16:28:08 <ehird> "Run Multiple Computers with one Keyboard and Mouse"
16:28:19 <GregorR> Apparently I can't be a Geek 2.0 because I can't wear a leather wristband (wtf)
16:28:24 <ehird> "Setup a Computer in the Cloud"
16:28:25 <tombom> 99.Use Bittorrent Effectivelyhttp://infinitium.blogspot.com/2005/03/js-essential-howto-guide-bittorrent.html
16:28:27 <ehird> THE CLOUD OF CLOUDNESS
16:28:33 <ehird> BECAUSE IT IS THE INTERNET
16:29:10 <ehird> "Survive in a Linux Argument"
16:29:15 <ehird> Most people die when arguing about Linux.
16:29:24 <ehird> lol, it links to the old shitfest linux.com
16:29:58 <tombom> i like how it's all computer related stuff and then blam
16:30:01 <tombom> "Learn How to Hot Wire a Car"
16:30:16 <GregorR> tombom: Nowadays, that's computer related stuff ;)
16:30:58 <ehird> "Understand What “There’s no Place Like 127.0.0.1″ Means"
16:31:06 <ehird> "Unbrick a Smartphone"
16:31:09 <ehird> IF SOMETHING'S BRICKED IT CAN'T BE FIXED
16:31:14 <ehird> "Use a Camera in Manual Mode"
16:31:34 <ehird> http://www.dailycupoftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/geek2.gif
16:31:43 <ehird> Geek 1.0: Person who doesn't care about societal norms
16:31:47 <ehird> Geek 2.0: Douchebaggius maximus
16:32:13 <GregorR> And I can't accomplish that because I can't wear the leather wristband!
16:32:19 <GregorR> And besides that, I wear my phone on my wrist.
16:32:40 <tombom> well apart from the fact it makes you look like a pillock
16:33:22 <GregorR> So pillock + welts all over my arm = an interesting look :P
16:33:50 <pikhq> ... "Use a camera in manual mode"...
16:34:02 <pikhq> I didn't know using an SLR was hard.
16:34:16 <GregorR> pikhq: BOW DOWN BEFORE TECHNOLOGY :P
16:34:27 * pikhq beats GregorR with his SLR
16:34:42 * pikhq then hits the darkroom to see what interesting shots were made from the above process
16:35:07 <GregorR> You have an ANALOG camera? D-8
16:35:43 <pikhq> I also possess a digital SLR.
16:36:11 <GregorR> <pikhq> I also possess a digital SLURPY.
16:36:18 <GregorR> (And with that, I disapperate)
16:37:50 <pikhq> And the image below the list...
16:38:31 <pikhq> Y'know, D&D is still a somewhat common geek pastime...
16:39:00 <AnMaster> running the optimiser passes recursively until nothing changes might not have been the best possible idea...
16:39:39 <AnMaster> I think it ran all the passes around 50 times or so for lostkingBF
16:40:09 <pikhq> And what sort of improvement did you make for Lost Kingdom?
16:40:12 <AnMaster> without the shifting pass it just makes 5 passes
16:40:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, esotope-bfc is the best compiler currently. Mine is doing basic stuff
16:40:53 <pikhq> I thought that you were producing optimised Brainfuck, BTW. ;)
16:41:13 <AnMaster> in this case the pass was changing "add > add" into "add add:offset=1 >"
16:42:08 <AnMaster> to allow more combining for stuff like ++>-<+, with the offset thing you would get add:2 add:-1:offset:1 add:1
16:42:27 <AnMaster> but then it also sorts it so the combiner pass can combine the first and the last add
16:42:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I am. Just not aiming for the level that esotope-bfc is on
16:43:22 <pikhq> There's a limited amount of stuff that you can optimise in Brainfuck when you're outputting Brainfuck.
16:43:23 <AnMaster> since it can optimise that hello world program on the wiki into a single PUTS("Hello, World!");
16:43:39 <pikhq> So I assume the fanciest thing you can do is dead-code elimination.
16:43:54 <pikhq> "Producing optimised Brainfuck"
16:44:03 <AnMaster> but you could write a BF one too
16:44:09 <pikhq> Oh, so you're setting it up so you can *have* a Brainfuck backend.
16:44:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact I'm setting it up so I can have a Erlang backend, a Scheme backend, a C backend and possibly a BF backend.
16:44:49 <AnMaster> and I'm doing semi-plugin-like optimiser
16:44:58 <AnMaster> each pass is in a separate module
16:45:29 <AnMaster> the main optimiser routine has a list of optimiser modules (could be changed to enumerate them on the file system I guess), and calls them
16:45:53 * pikhq checks out esotope-bfc
16:45:54 <AnMaster> and after calling all once it checks if the parse tree is the same or not, if not it runs them all again
16:46:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://rafb.net/p/ZilcqJ72.html
16:47:02 <AnMaster> ib_opt_cleanup is rather silly. It handles the "add 0" sometimes produced by the combiner
16:47:11 <AnMaster> like +- will result in "add 0" :D
16:47:28 <AnMaster> probably no real BF code contains that.
16:48:20 <AnMaster> "real" meaning "not a test suite for an optimiser, and not written by an idiot, and not auto generated by !bf_txtgen".
16:48:32 <pikhq> Some generated BF code contains it...
16:48:35 <EgoBot> 49 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>. [239]
16:48:52 <pikhq> PEBBLE generated code could generate it, except that I have an optimising pass.
16:48:54 <AnMaster> though in that case the other <<< would swallow that move 0
16:48:59 <pikhq> Which eliminates dead code. :)
16:50:03 <AnMaster> hm, might be interesting to add a BF backend in fact. See how much better it makes LostKingBF
16:50:15 <AnMaster> however it would be kind of a pain
16:50:34 <AnMaster> since the initial "add" at start of the program will get turned into "set" in my next pass
16:51:17 <AnMaster> then that backend needs to change [-]+ into "+" for example at start of program
16:51:44 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what is the best way to handle "assume 0 at start of program"
16:52:07 <AnMaster> I mean, I need to keep track of somehow of balanced loops near the start and so on
16:52:14 <AnMaster> tracking values of cells as far as possible
16:53:09 <AnMaster> maybe I should have a loop analyser pass that somehow marks loops as balanced...
17:00:12 <pikhq> Well, seems that esotope-bfc doesn't fully handle string optimisation right...
17:00:19 <pikhq> There's a lot of PUTCs in LostKng.
17:01:52 <pikhq> *Oh*. Because when it gets to the things it PUTCs, it isn't sure of the value of the cell.
17:02:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, It isn't always possible to figure that out
17:06:15 <Asztal> you should compile that into a symlink to cat
17:06:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:06:52 <GregorR> Except that cat will happily cat things that contain nulls.
17:07:11 <ais523> if you're a feline, anyway
17:10:00 <AnMaster> Asztal, doing that would be insane AND incorrect as GregorR showed.
17:10:50 * AnMaster tries rearranging the passes to see if it helps to have the set pass first
17:12:06 <AnMaster> I guess it was due to less loops to descend in.
17:12:55 <ehird> Public service announcement: asiekierka can in fact code.
17:13:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking with him about a (non-cooperative) multitasking OS for the c64.
17:13:42 <ehird> And he's written a bit of c64 asm for it.
17:14:16 <asiekierka> AnMaster: divmod, putc, puts, gotoxy, and a simple "main" routine
17:14:16 <ehird> AnMaster: It has enough to print "hello world" to the screen; which is a lot considering the fussy C64 graphics memory.
17:14:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what about the multi-tasking bit?
17:14:29 <ehird> And he's figured out how to do multitasking.
17:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: he hasn't written it yet
17:14:43 <ehird> we're still discussing how best to copy the stack etc
17:14:44 <asiekierka> AnMaster: I can't even run a SINGLE PROCESS
17:14:56 <AnMaster> asiekierka, that was what I expected!
17:15:30 <asiekierka> Also, I sometimes utilize a little bit of self-modifying code
17:15:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you're being a jerk
17:15:47 <ehird> you just started writing an OS and it can't run multiple processes on a 1mhz computer with 64k of ram and no multitasking support?
17:15:47 <pikhq> gcc -OS optimised LostKng is 624K...
17:15:49 <ehird> HA! you can't code!
17:16:24 * pikhq observes that multitasking is hard
17:16:34 <asiekierka> I started writing that OS and it has enough to input some text
17:16:52 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: how goes your compy shippy
17:17:06 <ehird> 17:16 AnMaster: he knows how to program a bit yes. He just doesn't know HOW he should program to solve a specific issue. I remember him saying he couldn't implement DOBELA himself due to having no idea how to do a sparse array.
17:17:16 * ehird has full disclosure policy on /msgs :}
17:17:43 <ehird> asiekierka: i think ignoring AnMaster until he writes a multitasking OS for the c64 is a good policy
17:17:49 <ehird> 17:17 AnMaster: he is kind of like I was back when I coded in Pascal. I could code, but I didn't know how to code non-trivial stuff.
17:17:54 <ehird> 17:17 GregorR: HA HA EHIRD IS A RETARD (full disclosure policy?)
17:18:10 <asiekierka> also, a newline would need to be a weird char
17:18:14 <tombom> i have that problem, how do i learn ebtter
17:18:22 <ehird> asiekierka: doesn't the c64 have graphical chars?
17:18:28 <pikhq> In other words, asiekierka should code more.
17:18:33 <ehird> asiekierka: what's char 0?
17:18:36 <pikhq> And possibly work on a CS degree.
17:18:46 <GregorR> What a weird place to put @#
17:18:48 <ehird> asiekierka: what's char 255
17:18:56 <AnMaster> anyway it isn't strange, you first learn how to write code. Then you learn HOW to program.
17:19:06 <asiekierka> chars 128-255 are reversed images of chars 0-127
17:19:08 <ehird> AnMaster: get off your high horse :)
17:19:17 <ehird> asiekierka: what you're saying is, there's no space in a byte for a newline
17:19:29 <ehird> asiekierka: have newline be a separate procedure
17:19:33 <ehird> Puts("Hello, world!"); Newline
17:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, just speaking out of own experience. For example would you say SICP is about how to write code, or how to program?
17:19:50 <AnMaster> I'd say it is about the latter.
17:19:53 <ehird> AnMaster: asiekierka can program
17:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. Better now than before.
17:20:27 <asiekierka> it's pha, lda #$00, sta text_x, inc text_y, pla, rts
17:20:44 * pikhq observes that he needs more RAM...
17:20:52 <ehird> pikhq: asiekierka's working with 64k
17:20:55 <pikhq> When you start getting swap-bound compilation, you need more RAM.
17:20:58 * AnMaster wonders how large the generated BF for LostKing would be with NO optimisation.
17:20:58 <ais523> asiekierka: that reminds me of 6502 asm
17:21:03 <ehird> ais523: that's cuz it is
17:21:10 <ehird> ais523: he's writing a multitasking OS for the C64
17:21:24 <GregorR> Isn't there already ... lunix or something.
17:21:37 <pikhq> GregorR: And Contiki.
17:21:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. But even with just combining ++ -- >>> and so on it is much less than the original program source.
17:21:50 <pikhq> Which has a per-process overhead measured in bytes.
17:21:57 <ehird> Still, I'm not sure anyone's done multitasking the way we have
17:22:10 <pikhq> ehird: That way being?
17:22:23 <GregorR> "Preemptive multitasking (up to 32 tasks, 7 priorities)" Do you need 7 priorities with a max of 32 tasks? :P
17:22:27 <ehird> pikhq: Set up a timer on a clock for 0.small seconds.
17:22:38 <ehird> pikhq: Then, when it sets off, find the process that's been ran the last
17:22:45 <ehird> the process that's had the longest time without executing
17:22:50 <ehird> to suspend a process, we do the pretty normal thing
17:22:53 <ehird> copy registers, copy stack
17:22:58 <ehird> and the obvious thing to resume
17:23:01 <AnMaster> the shift pass reduces it from 1.3 MB to 958K btw
17:23:03 <ehird> but I'm not sure the others use a timer
17:23:08 <pikhq> That's a rather normal multitasking method.
17:23:55 <pikhq> I don't think it's done often on a C64.
17:24:07 <pikhq> C64's timer does interrupts?
17:24:14 <ehird> not as much fun to read other OS's source
17:24:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Contiki preempts whenever a process makes a blocking call.
17:24:33 <ehird> just don't copy any code; license issues.
17:24:38 <ehird> pikhq: see, that's lame
17:24:50 <pikhq> It's meant to run on microcontrollers.
17:24:52 <ehird> ours can multitask when it's doing scientific computation or whatever ;-)
17:25:06 <ehird> asiekierka: it's lame to copy other OS's code anyway :P
17:25:16 <ehird> long-term goal is multiple graphical apps running at once, although that'll be sloow
17:25:39 <pikhq> BTW, LostKng with gcc -O2 -m32 is 564K.
17:25:47 <pikhq> That's a 60 kilobyte savings.
17:26:26 <AnMaster> I haven't dared compiling the generated lostkingdom!
17:26:45 <pikhq> It uses up quite a bit of RAM.
17:26:50 <AnMaster> tombom, then the output file is called 3
17:26:54 <pikhq> tombom: I don't have the RAM for that.
17:26:58 <asiekierka> http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunshots.html
17:27:05 <ehird> on lostkng.b esotoped
17:27:09 <AnMaster> um. That wasn't what he said though
17:27:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:28:46 <pikhq> Nice thing about this compiled LostKng...
17:28:51 <pikhq> strings does something!
17:29:02 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunshots.html <-- "comments"?
17:29:20 <ehird> AnMaster: french guy, I think
17:29:25 <asiekierka> But I think i'm not exactly the person that should do an OS
17:29:31 <ehird> asiekierka: are you giving up on celf?
17:29:39 <AnMaster> ehird, like "do you want help"?
17:29:48 <ehird> asiekierka: no shit sherlock :-P
17:29:51 <ehird> i may learn c64 asm.
17:30:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is the size of the source for that lostking.
17:32:00 <pikhq> Yeah, it's smaller than LostKng.b
17:32:26 <pikhq> GregorR: Will install it.
17:35:20 <pikhq> ... Gentoo installs a binary package for upx.
17:35:37 <GregorR> Hm, UPX can pack but not unpack an already-compressed version of that linux kernel. That makes "sense"
17:35:46 * AnMaster ponders parallel code generator
17:36:08 <AnMaster> basically threads handling sub-trees + mapreduce
17:36:16 <GregorR> UPX uses the NRV compression library for compression services. A compatible but somewhat less efficient OpenSource implementation is available through the UCL compression library.
17:36:31 <GregorR> It must be supplying the proprietary (read: lame) NRV version instead of the UCL version.
17:37:05 <pikhq> And, yeah, what UPX does to compress the Linux kernel is kinda interesting...
17:37:21 <pikhq> You see, the Linux kernel includes a decompression routine that a bootloader jumps to.
17:37:39 <pikhq> UPX decompresses the compressed bits, compresses them again, and inserts its own compression stub.
17:41:21 <ehird> pikhq: is that slow?
17:41:30 <pikhq> Actually, lemme try upx --lzma --ultra-brute
17:41:38 <ehird> so why isn't it standard
17:42:02 <pikhq> Because it has some disadvantages, like not sharing common segments in memory.
17:43:47 <pikhq> 44K if I use --lzma --ultra-brute.
17:44:03 <pikhq> And decompression time is not noticable.
17:45:40 * pikhq statically links it just for the hell of it; let's see how feasible it is to get LostKingdom on a floppy
17:45:56 <GregorR> UPX supports "TMT/Adam" as a binary format. So I looked it up and the UPX page says it's a Pascal compiler, and links to tmt.com for information. "TMT offers products for the taphole area at blast furnaces or reduction furnaces. Through the application of TMT measuring technology the blast furnace process can be optimized."
17:46:19 <GregorR> Those blast furnaces are powered by Pascal.
17:47:19 <pikhq> ehird: With any luck, I should be able to run LostKingdom from a 5 1/4" floppy.
17:47:31 <pikhq> (assuming the kernel itself is somewhat UPX-able. ;))
17:47:42 <pikhq> GregorR: No, that would take a bit more work.
17:47:56 <pikhq> Like compiling this to a C64 binary.
17:48:03 <pikhq> ... And having more than 64K RAM.
17:48:15 <pikhq> You see, UPX decompresses the whole thing to memory.
17:48:19 <asiekierka> pikhq: Does Lost Kingdom really use more than 30000 cells
17:48:40 <pikhq> The binary itself is more than 64K, though. ;)
17:48:48 <ehird> pikhq: just load the binary incrementally
17:48:52 <ehird> load one block, add code to load the next at the end
17:48:59 <pikhq> That involves more work.
17:49:29 <pikhq> I didn't say it was impossible; the C64 is a perfectly capable system, after all.
17:49:51 <pikhq> The binary would probably benefit from 16-bit pointers, though.
17:52:19 * pikhq wishes GCC would learn about this wonderful, wonderful function called "free()".
17:55:03 <ehird> pikhq: they use a gc
17:56:28 <pikhq> ehird: And Boehm hates "free()".
17:56:44 <pikhq> Okay, statically linked, I've got LostKng at 232K.
17:56:52 <pikhq> glibc is freaking huge.
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17:57:51 <pikhq> If I had it available, I would.
17:58:46 <ehird> don't you have a package management system pikhq
18:02:30 <pikhq> Yes, but uclibc is not some easily-installed package.
18:03:04 <pikhq> You need to install an entire build chain for it...
18:03:15 <pikhq> Basically, you install a freaking cross-compiler.
18:03:23 <ehird> Just use your current toolchain
18:03:32 <pikhq> But that doesn't work.
18:03:41 <ehird> use a different libc?
18:03:58 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/
18:04:01 <pikhq> My current toolchain produces pc-linux-gnu binaries.
18:04:16 <pikhq> To use uclibc, I would need to produce a pc-linux-uclibc toolchain.
18:04:38 <pikhq> Which cheats instead of making a pc-linux-dietlibc toolchain.
18:04:48 <pikhq> Said cheats are crufty and unreliable. ;)
18:04:59 <ehird> pikhq: yer just compiling lostkng!
18:05:48 <ehird> the dietlibc author is a kook, interestingly
18:06:06 <ehird> he worships djb (I suspect some homosexual undertones) and wrote this laughfest: http://www.fefe.de/nowindows/
18:06:13 <ehird> maybe I'll port all of his software to windows out of spite :)
18:10:55 <pikhq> Y'know, that's really, really dumb when you consider that there is ReactOS.
18:11:13 <pikhq> A free Windows implementation. ;)
18:11:39 <pikhq> Also, porting dietlibc to Solaris wouldn't help a nonfree software company any more.
18:12:00 <pikhq> Last I checked, Stallman recommended Solaris as an OS that only ships with free software. :p
18:15:53 <ehird> ahh, c64 asm is nice and simple
18:15:57 <ehird> three registers, A X Y
18:15:58 <fizzie> There's also "buildroot"; it quasi-automagically gets and builds a full uclibc cross-toolchain. (Well, when it works.)
18:16:11 -!- oklodok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:17:16 <pikhq> I think I'll stick with crossdev.
18:17:25 <pikhq> It's Gentoo's automagic cross-compiler-maker. ;)
18:18:52 <ehird> C64 called xor EOR
18:20:10 <pikhq> crossdev -t x86_64-pc-linux-uclibc.
18:24:23 <AnMaster> Lost Kingdom is now down to 885K generated C code, from 956K in previous revision
18:25:11 <AnMaster> yay crossdev, it makes crosscompiling easy. Without crossdev it tends to be a major PITA.
18:27:14 * pikhq waits for his currently-running build to finish before running crossdev
18:33:37 <AnMaster> is [+>-<] always same as [->+<]
18:34:07 <AnMaster> even if the non-index cell is set to a non-zero value. Right
18:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, so then that can turn into p[1]+=p[0]; p[0]=0;
18:35:02 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be -= for one and += for the other?
18:36:20 <ehird> and it conditions on p[0], so
18:36:44 <AnMaster> but what about the other one: [+>-<]
18:37:47 <ehird> sorry, i'm confused atm
18:38:47 <fizzie> For [+>-<] you do p[1] -= (N-p[0]), which (modulo N) is probably p[1] += p[0] too.
18:38:58 <fizzie> Assuming wrapping cells, of course.
18:39:18 <ehird> p[1]+=p[0];p[0]=0;
18:40:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, so they are the same with wrapping cells? right
18:40:12 <ehird> haha, this c64 emulator blurs the display to emulate a crt
18:41:03 <fizzie> Console emulators tend to have all kinds of "darken every second line to simulate TV scanlines" display options, too.
18:41:19 <fizzie> Is it vice or something else?
18:41:28 <ehird> with PAL emulation turned on
18:41:58 <ehird> i didn't talk to you
18:42:08 <ehird> for anyone who hasn't seen it, http://xs539.xs.to/xs539/09202/picture_1751.png
18:42:10 <AnMaster> the PAL emulation isn't convincing IMO
18:42:48 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how high res the TFT is
18:43:38 <ehird> ah, SIDs are wonderful
18:43:42 <AnMaster> <fizzie> For [+>-<] you do p[1] -= (N-p[0]), which (modulo N) is probably p[1] += p[0] too. <-- "probably"?
18:43:58 <fizzie> Well, I don't like doing unqualified statements.
18:44:13 <fizzie> If it sounds plausible to you, you can remove the "probably" part.
18:44:47 <AnMaster> I guess I need to prove it. Sigh
18:45:19 <AnMaster> actually, it is simpler to just brute force it for the unsigned char case :)
18:45:31 <fizzie> Uh, well.. a - (N-b) = a + b - N = a + b (mod N); there you go.
18:46:03 <ehird> proving it takes about 5 seconds in wetware
18:46:08 <ehird> vs 10-15 seconds to write bruteforcer
18:46:09 <AnMaster> hah. I finished writing the short iterate for brute force half a second before that line :P
18:46:29 <ehird> brute forcing: the tool for brutes' minds.
18:51:46 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb].
19:03:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm at 218 passes for LostKing now
19:03:49 <AnMaster> I think I need to make my shift pass do more at once.
19:05:55 <AnMaster> it would be faster if it moved more in both directions, swapping as it went, rather than moving a bit then doing a new scan over it
19:06:20 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: \o/
19:09:13 <ehird> decided what os yet?
19:09:51 <GregorR> If it's non-boring you're looking for, go ReactOS or BeOS or OS/2 :P
19:10:07 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: linux is boring but uh... also practical
19:11:03 <GregorR> <ehird> ah, SIDS is wonderful
19:12:11 <GregorR> OK, so I'm slightly misquoting you :P
19:21:15 <bsmntbombgirl> http://asserttrue.blogspot.com/2009/05/one-of-toughest-job-interview-questions.html
19:21:53 <bsmntbombgirl> sed 's/[^a-z]\+/ /g'|tr ' ' '\n'|awk '{words[$0] += 1} END{ for(word in words) print words[word], word; }'|sort -nrk1|head -10000
19:21:57 -!- asie[brb] has changed nick to asiekierka.
19:21:57 <ehird> that blog is funny because the author is a retard
19:24:21 <ehird> well actually put A2000 before that first inc
19:24:25 <ehird> and also MON<ENTER> before
19:24:28 <GregorR> Anyone with a blog named "assert true" would pretty much have to be a retard.
19:24:32 <ehird> and also emulator→load catridge→tfc3
19:24:43 <ehird> and also reboot-while-holding-commodore-key
19:24:46 <ehird> i'm not sure which key
19:24:49 <ehird> it's mapped to esc here
19:26:00 <ehird> Fun C64 fact: the drive was more powerful than the C64.
19:26:27 <GregorR> ... and it's even written as "assertTrue()" ... idiot
19:26:39 <GregorR> The drive could solve the halting problem?
19:26:42 <ehird> GregorR: assertTrue() is a function in javahead assertion libraries
19:26:48 <ehird> assertTrue(foo) is.. assert(foo)
19:26:51 <ehird> there's things like assertFalse
19:26:55 <ehird> and assertEquals(foo,bar)
19:27:18 -!- jix has joined.
19:27:31 <ehird> but the javaheads can't introspect on the code used so they use that to get half-decent output ;-)
19:27:50 <GregorR> !addinterp jix sh echo 'Jix is not a programming language.'
19:27:51 <EgoBot> Interpreter jix installed.
19:28:17 <EgoBot> Interpreter jix deleted.
19:28:32 <pikhq> ehird: Really; that's terrible.
19:28:34 <jix> hey don't delete me!
19:28:46 <ehird> jix: GregorR made fukyorbrane2
19:29:05 <bsmntbombgirl> "programming languages should not be designed by piling feature upon feature, but by removing the limitations that make extra features seem necessary"
19:29:19 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
19:29:22 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl++, although that sentence is ironically in R6RS.
19:29:25 <GregorR> I didn't change the language :P
19:29:50 <GregorR> Huh, EgoBot has gone wonko ...
19:30:01 <pikhq> bsmntbombgirl: In other words, all languages should be a superset of Lisp.
19:30:14 <ehird> pikhq: it's RnRS's intro
19:30:17 <ehird> GregorR: asiekierka was fucking with it
19:30:38 <ehird> pikhq: Revised^N Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
19:30:47 <ehird> Currently at R5RS; some heathens think it's at R6Rs.
19:31:30 <pikhq> I don't think there's many languages that embody that more than Scheme...
19:31:59 <ehird> LAMBDA: The Ultimate *.
19:32:10 <ehird> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_Papers )
19:32:35 <ehird> I WAS TALKING TO pikhq
19:38:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
19:38:43 <GregorR-L> !bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-----.>++.+++++++..+++.>.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-.
19:38:58 <tombom> !bf <-----------------------------------------
19:39:02 <tombom> !bf <-----------------------------------------.
19:39:36 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:39:43 <GregorR> If you're trying to break it, there are much better routes to try.
19:39:50 <GregorR> !c printf("%p\n", malloc(1024))
19:40:09 <tombom> : !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934))
19:40:16 <tombom> !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934))
19:40:44 <GregorR> Hm, it has a much smaller VM limit than that, it must be using mmap.
19:40:57 <GregorR> Oh wait, that's only 240k :P
19:41:03 <tombom> !c printf("%p\n", malloc(24093400))
19:41:08 <tombom> !c printf("%p\n", malloc(240934000))
19:41:37 <GregorR> (If you want to poke at it and not bother #esoteric , there's #egobot )
19:43:57 * pikhq reads Lambda: the Ultimate Imperative
19:48:38 <GregorR-L> I'm going to create a blog called Kappa the Penultimate
19:49:14 <ehird> Omega the Indubitably
19:49:58 <Gracenotes> as mentioned in #haskell, you can't miss "Lambda: The Ultimate Blub"
19:50:12 <ehird> Gracenotes: Paul Graham reference detected. Bozo bit set.
19:51:00 <Gracenotes> not my joke! And you realize that's the adorable bit, right?
19:55:33 * GregorR-L sets mode: +ooo ais523 Gracenotes ehird
19:55:46 * ehird has kicked GregorR-L
19:56:24 <ehird> how, you're not here
19:56:42 <Gracenotes> the channel has mysteriously become -n while you weren't watching
19:56:59 <ais523> what, you can set /modes/ from outside on a -n channel?
19:57:11 <Gracenotes> ais523: uh, dunno. It's a guess though :
19:57:13 <ais523> that makes no sense, how would you be an op if you weren't even in the channel?
19:57:21 <ehird> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
19:57:42 <Gracenotes> ais523: perhaps he'd set up an autoban then
19:57:43 <GregorR-L> Nobody here even has opability on #esoteric , do they?
19:59:34 <fizzie> That's the sort of relic-from-the past I am. Although I guess lament's been seen quasi-recently, too?
19:59:38 * GregorR-L takes all of tombom's wurvles and gives them to FireFly
20:00:38 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
20:01:40 <ehird> fizzie and lament and Aardappel (← last one being a joke :p)
20:01:50 <ehird> AARDAPPEL IS WITH US . . . IN SPIRIT
20:04:17 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:06:03 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to vsnprintf.
20:06:22 <fizzie> Ⓦⓗⓞⓞⓟⓢ. I accidentally the parenthesized letters instead of circled ones.
20:08:32 <fizzie> Strange. On this very much not an Apple computer, gucharmap shows the private-use-area letter U+F8FF () as the Apple logo.
20:09:39 <comex> greatest nick ever is rlwinm
20:09:49 <ais523> what's so great about that nick?
20:09:54 <comex> it's a powerpc instruction
20:10:26 -!- vsnprintf has changed nick to no-op.
20:10:34 <no-op> This nick is unowned.
20:10:37 <no-op> Can you believe that?
20:10:50 <no-op> (nop and noop are owned :P )
20:11:05 <ehird> the c64 has an instruction called
20:11:19 <ehird> it means Push Processor Status on Stack
20:11:38 -!- no-op has changed nick to Egolitarian.
20:11:52 <fizzie> Stop calling them C64 instructions, since the 6502 is used absolutely everywhere. :p
20:11:59 <ais523> is the c64 6502-based, or does it just have the same instructions?
20:12:06 <ais523> fizzie: ah, you answered my question for me
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20:12:37 <comex> the powerpc has an instruction called
20:12:46 <ais523> comex: that's a great name
20:12:48 <comex> (enforce in-order execution of I/O)
20:12:53 <ais523> and probably deliberate
20:13:08 <ehird> hurd has an error EIEIO
20:13:13 <ehird> it's the kernel panic code
20:13:19 <ehird> Computer has gone to the farm.
20:13:19 <AnMaster> real 1m3.411s -> real 0m12.334s
20:13:41 <ehird> computer brought the farm
20:13:45 <Egolitarian> AnMaster ran the "divide time by 6" operation
20:13:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what program?
20:13:57 <ais523> that's too slow to be cfunge
20:14:05 <fizzie> Z80 gpg-error.h has "GPG_ERR_EIEIO = GPG_ERR_SYSTEM_ERROR | 44"; I'm not quite sure what it's used for.
20:14:24 <fizzie> Er, not Z80 gpg-error.h; the usual gpg-error.h
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20:14:28 <ehird> "UNPLUG MODEM TO GET IT TO WORK!"
20:15:24 <AnMaster> ais523, First I made the bf-to-C compiler called "before" (compiler written in C), Then I made the bf-to-C compiler called "after" (coded in scheme), Now I'm making the bf-to-selectable-backend compiler called "in-between" (coded in erlang)
20:17:01 <Egolitarian> AnMaster: And what will you call the one written in BF?
20:17:55 <ais523> which is the name that would be produced if before was compiled via gcc-bf
20:17:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what I did was to change which list I add back the swapped operands to in the function sorting additions, sets and so on based on offset (changes ++>-<+ into +++>-< and so on).
20:18:00 <ehird> THIS IS LIVE FIRE IN THE YERA OF 1994,
20:18:03 <AnMaster> I now add back to the Input List
20:18:05 <ais523> or bf-unknown-none-before if you wanted to give the full triplet
20:18:19 <AnMaster> thus meaning I need fewer passes over it
20:19:55 <ais523> bf-unknown-none is the triplet name for gcc-bf
20:20:06 <ais523> triplets are used by the GNU build system to identify a target processor
20:20:19 <AnMaster> meaning it was hard to add optimising properly
20:20:22 <ais523> and yes, but it would technically speaking be written by you, and in BF
20:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I run the optimiser passes in a loop until the last time around didn't change anything.
20:21:08 <AnMaster> the "change list to add back to" reduced it from 218 iterations for lostking to just 5.
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20:22:06 <ehird> bah, how come VICE doesn't map ← to anything intelligable
20:22:41 <ehird> The commodore had a ← key to the left of 1 and just above CTRL.
20:22:44 <AnMaster> As in AltGr - whatever that generates the ← or the arrow key?
20:22:49 <ehird> Same sort of place ESC is on current keyboards.
20:22:54 <ehird> VICE purports to map ^ to it.
20:23:00 <ehird> But Shift-6 (=^) doesn't trigger it.
20:23:29 <ehird> 8 2 4 8 /* C -> C */
20:23:29 <ehird> 9 3 7 8 /* V -> V */
20:23:30 <ehird> 10 7 1 8 /* ^ -> Left Arrow */
20:23:32 <ehird> 11 3 4 8 /* B -> B */
20:23:34 <ehird> 12 7 6 8 /* Q -> Q */
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20:24:23 <ehird> AnMaster: you said you used vice right
20:24:30 <AnMaster> with ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' time is reduced to real 0m8.942s
20:24:43 <ehird> i assume you didn't use backarrow
20:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I probably didn't indeed.
20:25:06 <ehird> can't use TURBO-ASSEMBLER without it :-(
20:26:56 <AnMaster> yes that is from optimised lostkingdom
20:27:24 <AnMaster> and I'm *quite* sure that is really what happens in lostkingdom.
20:27:31 <AnMaster> Just need to locate it. Near the beginning
20:28:00 <ehird> that can be optimized AnMaster
20:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I just haven't written any pass that does it
20:28:29 <AnMaster> but that code is right at the beginning of lostkingdom
20:29:19 <ehird> AnMaster: use mandelbrot.b for a real benchmark
20:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I manage that quite fine. And I can compile that without GCC running out of memory
20:29:53 <ehird> yes, but for speed
20:29:54 <fizzie> It is also not *quite* that silly; it basically does "if (p[0]) p[1] = 1;".
20:29:58 <ehird> lostkng is just shitty generated code
20:30:33 <AnMaster> I haven't implemented the if pass yet
20:30:41 <AnMaster> since I haven't yet implemented the loop analyser
20:30:42 <ehird> does esotope do ifs
20:30:45 <fizzie> If you just turn it to p[0] = 0; p[1] = 1; you end up setting p[1] to 1 every time, while it wouldn't happen if p[0] were 0.
20:30:57 <AnMaster> ehird, but I don't aim for that good.
20:30:59 <ehird> ah, true enough fizzie
20:31:36 <AnMaster> I'm going to turn it into an if yes.
20:31:38 <fizzie> Although it could be [>[-]+<[-]] so that it doesn't do that set-to-one too many times. But maybe p[0] is for other reasons guaranteed to be 0/1.
20:32:07 * AnMaster wonders what is best: if (p[0]) { code; p[0] = 0; } or if (p[0]) { code; } p[0] = 0;
20:32:08 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owHCjEWjAvs&feature=related
20:32:15 <AnMaster> the latter could potentially be merged
20:32:32 <AnMaster> but if it wasn't it would set it when it wasn't needed
20:32:58 <ehird> shitty movie but interesting use of an atari
20:33:05 <ehird> i didn't know it could do such high quality stuff
20:33:22 <AnMaster> I could detect that, but it seems quite a bit of work. a pass after all other ones scaning for that.
20:34:45 <ehird> This is driving me crazy!!!
20:39:42 * ehird throws vice out the window
20:39:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and it is a SQL-like bool
20:40:27 <ehird> AnMaster: FRC reference.
20:40:45 <AnMaster> Definitions of FRC on the Web:
20:41:03 <AnMaster> ehird, was that the meaning of it?
20:41:05 <ehird> The Fantasy Rules Committee is a nomic-like game that started as a special committee of NomicWorld. It did however survive the disbanding of the latter game, and still exists as an independent entity.
20:41:06 <ehird> In FRC (as it is called in short), there are subsequent rounds. Each round starts with all players being eligible (except one who functions as the judge). Players try to make valid rules, that is, rules consistent with all previous ones. A valid rule extends a player's eligibility to fourteen days after the rule was posted, but an invalid one decreases it by two days. The last eligible player (who in almost all cases is also the player who posted the las
20:41:12 <ehird> t valid rule) is the winner, and will function as the judge in the next round.
20:41:15 <ehird> Theme "Logic", or more properly "FLogic"
20:41:17 <ehird> Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!!
20:41:19 <ehird> http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/
20:41:30 <ehird> Archived, by the looks of it, by oerjan.
20:41:38 <ehird> Or at least, same university as his site.
20:41:41 <ehird> He used to play FRC.
20:41:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure it is, it's a third truth value.
20:42:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what is <.-.> supposed to be
20:42:39 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!!"
20:43:07 -!- jix has quit ("brb").
20:43:35 <AnMaster> Does "<.-.>" have any meaning? Or is it just random.
20:44:05 <ehird> Presumably it'll define it.
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20:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Good god, what on earth is your problem? What is so confusing about "Where you can find out whether <.-.> is Frue, Talse or Floyd!!"
20:46:10 <AnMaster> I need a good name for a type which is true, false or undefined.
20:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, serious suggestion please. Plus it must be start with a lower case letter to be a valid type name.
20:47:32 <ehird> Why the fuck do you have to ask me to decide a trivial type name
20:47:35 <ehird> I thought you could code
20:47:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I suck at making up good names.
20:48:19 <AnMaster> bool_or_unknown seems so long.
20:49:07 <ehird> # Copyright 1995 Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert. All Rights Reserved.
20:49:07 <ehird> # You are not allowed to read this using any kind of Micro$oft product.
20:49:14 <ehird> ITT: License fail.
20:50:50 <ais523> err, I'm not sure a licence can do that
20:51:00 <ehird> ais523: thus the "fail".
20:51:07 <ehird> it's not even a license, actually, it's just a note in the file
20:51:15 * ehird opens 500 VMs of Windows and opens it in each
20:51:30 * AnMaster watches ehird's computer swap trash
20:51:31 <ais523> 500 VMs of Windows probably wouldn't fit in even your computer's memory
20:51:47 <ehird> windows 3.1 would do
20:51:52 <ehird> it can run on ... 16MB of RAM?
20:52:31 <FireFly> What about an EULA which indicates that the program can't be run?
20:52:38 <pikhq> ehird, copy on write.
20:52:45 <FireFly> Or has to be run under some odd circumstances
20:52:46 <pikhq> I think you'd need less than 8G.
20:52:54 <ehird> 8G ain't much these days :p
20:53:14 <pikhq> It is a decent chunk of RAM, though.
20:53:29 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not, you can buy 128GB of ram for like $1k
20:53:56 <pikhq> Yes, because everyone plops down $1,000 for a system.
20:53:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, that assumes you manages some memory sharing between those VMs. Which is a lot harder than for plain applications. I would be surprised if any of the current VMs did that. Because in most cases where you could share memory, it would be non-trivial to detect that it could be done.
20:54:07 <ehird> pikhq: not the point
20:54:12 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820159025
20:54:15 <ehird> 8GB DDR2 for $80.99
20:54:23 <ehird> that's quite mainstream territory
20:54:38 <AnMaster> ehird, for the state of art desktops.
20:54:45 <pikhq> ehird, most people these days buy rather cheap systems.
20:54:58 <ais523> yes, but $81 isn't all that much on top of the price of a typical computer
20:55:01 <ehird> I'd say the typical ram expenditure for a new, mid-range system is $40
20:55:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, that, and the average is a few years behind
20:55:13 <ehird> $81 for 8GB ... you can't say 8GB is difficult to buy
20:55:14 <ais523> and 8 GB is a massive amount to someone like me, who's used to really low-powered computers
20:55:17 <AnMaster> since most people don't upgrade every year
20:55:26 <ehird> if you want 8GB, you can get it, unless you're completely and utterly broke
20:55:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd listen to what you're saying if it was relevant at all
20:55:45 <pikhq> ehird: That's the attitude that makes 8GB RAM usage necessary.
20:55:52 <ehird> the point is that 8GB is not odd, expensive or strang
20:55:55 <AnMaster> but there is no point arguing with you.
20:56:13 <ehird> indeed there isn't, because I don't simply admit you're right when you blab about irrelevant shit :)
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20:57:05 <ehird> ah, right, I also don't accept arguments by assertion
20:57:12 <ehird> all in all I'm a pretty bad person to try and convince of stupid things
20:57:54 <Deewiant> I think the standard update interval for gamers is 2-4 years
20:58:23 <AnMaster> It is relevant, because you were asserting that 8 GB "ain't much these days". That implies that the majority have more than that. Which simply isn't true yet. In a few years sure.
20:58:44 <AnMaster> now, I have better stuff to do than argue with you. Cya
20:59:06 <ehird> that's actually not what I said.
20:59:14 <ehird> "8GB ain't much these days" != everyone has >8GB
20:59:28 <ehird> "8GB ain't much these days" = "it is not difficult, extravagantly costly or hard in any way to get 8GB of RAM at all"
20:59:41 <AnMaster> everyone has >8GB != "majority"
21:00:21 <ehird> congrats, you can nitpick at irrelevant bits to avoid rebutting my actual point.
21:00:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is. Because unless you have a very recent system you will need to upgrade your mobo too
21:00:48 <ehird> if you have a low-end mobo, sure.
21:01:05 <AnMaster> ehird, even if you have a high end mobo from a 2-4 years ago.
21:01:10 <Asztal> I have a 3 year old system and it supports 16GB fine
21:01:15 <ehird> AnMaster: you're bullshitting
21:01:21 <ehird> what mobo has less than 4 slots?
21:01:21 <Asztal> well, I haven't tried that, but it would
21:01:27 <ehird> what mobo supports less than 8GB?
21:01:35 <AnMaster> ehird, most ones I have seen have 2 or 3 slots
21:01:35 <ehird> A: one you bought on the cheap, or one that's ancient.
21:01:48 <ehird> AnMaster: i guess sweden is where they keep the dinosaurs
21:02:06 <AnMaster> as I said above. I don't consider "state of the art" as the norm
21:02:16 <ehird> that's fine, because I never said these are state of the art
21:02:18 <AnMaster> I rather consider average the norm.
21:02:27 <ehird> a motherboard with 4 DDR2 slots is not state of the art 3 years ago at all
21:02:30 <AnMaster> And not "gamer average". But "all user average"
21:03:18 <ehird> Argumentum ad AnMaster: Keep talking about a minor aspect of the argument that doesn't affect its actual truth value while ignoring future statements. This helps you seem like you're winning the argument without any fiddly thinking or rebutting or having facts on your side.
21:03:21 <AnMaster> and most people actually buy low end systems.
21:03:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ehird, most people these days buy rather cheap systems.
21:03:29 <ehird> 21:03 AnMaster: and most people actually buy low end systems.
21:03:33 <ehird> That's objectively false.
21:03:36 <ehird> If it's the norm, it's not low-end.
21:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, low end compared to your standards.
21:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the very definition of low-end, and norm.
21:04:06 <ais523> I define low-end as being lower than the average of what's on sale
21:04:10 <ais523> as opposed to the average of what people buy
21:04:22 <ehird> you can buy supercomputers
21:04:26 <ehird> bam, suddenly everything is low-end
21:04:27 <AnMaster> ais523, that is a better definition.
21:04:36 <ais523> ehird: except there aren't very many on sale
21:04:49 <ais523> maybe, let's say the median of all computers that haven't been sold yet, but can be bought
21:05:04 <ais523> but there are more non-supercomputers
21:05:42 <ehird> i'd say that your definition leads to very vague and fuzzy definitions of the ends
21:05:51 <ehird> since you have to analyze the exact proportions and specs of computers being sold
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21:40:51 <oerjan> <ehird> Archived, by the looks of it, by oerjan.
21:41:21 <oerjan> yep, although that was of course many years ago
21:41:39 <Sgeo> What did oerjan achieve?
21:41:53 <oerjan> archiving frc during its first years
21:42:17 <Sgeo> I loved reading the FRC archives
21:42:21 <oerjan> otherwise, looping in ///
21:42:40 <oerjan> but i have a simpler method now
21:43:38 <oerjan> (the horribly inefficient iterative scan should be unnecessary)
21:49:37 <oerjan> just need to actually code it :)
21:49:55 <ehird> oerjan: port it to the c64
21:52:08 <AnMaster> GCC's -O0 is horrible. It doesn't even constant fold +0
21:52:18 <AnMaster> I mean, that can't possibly hurt debugging
21:52:38 <GregorR> GCC -O0 isn't "don't do anything to hurt debugging", it's "perform no optimizations whatsoever"
21:52:44 <GregorR> It doesn't even assign values to registers with -O0
21:52:49 <AnMaster> to make i = 1 + 1 + 0 ; be i = 2; instead of calculating that at runtime.
21:53:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, therere should be a mode for "don't do anything to hurt debugging" then
21:53:10 <AnMaster> because -O1 does hurt debugging
21:53:35 <GregorR> I agree, there should be a -O<the two most basic optimizations there are, being constant folding and register allocation>
21:53:36 <ehird> what is -O by default?
21:53:48 <ehird> so gcc is shit by default
21:53:54 <AnMaster> I'm asking for something that does basic constant folding + "mov $0,%eax" => "xor %eax,%eax" and such
21:53:56 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, you mean if you specify -O? Then it's -O1 I think
21:54:05 <ehird> I meant if you don't specify
21:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I bet those turn into the same microcode these days
21:54:21 <ais523> default optimisation is -O0, unless you have some -O sitting in your cflags somewhere
21:54:22 <AnMaster> ehird, then it depends on ./configure time options iirc
21:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, um that doesn't matter.
21:54:51 <GregorR> ./configure puts things in the Makefile, thereby passing them to gcc X_X
21:54:52 <ehird> if "mov $0,%eax" and "xor %eax,%eax" turn into the same microcode
21:54:55 <ehird> they're the same thing
21:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, since the opcode for mov $0,%register is longer than xor %reg,%ref
21:54:59 <ehird> GregorR: yeah but I asked about gcc
21:55:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so not the same thing when it comes to cache
21:55:11 <GregorR> ehird: That was at AnMaster, not you
21:55:34 <AnMaster> <GregorR> ./configure puts things in the Makefile, thereby passing them to gcc X_X <-- in ./configure for gcc you can select default -march, -O and such iirc
21:55:44 <AnMaster> THAT is what I was talking about
21:56:19 <ehird> That sounds stupid actually
21:56:24 <ehird> liable to break stuff
21:56:24 <AnMaster> I'm 100% sure you can select default -march, not 100% sure about default -O
21:56:25 <GregorR> ehird: GCC uses this whole complicated mess of "spec files", it would just have to add the appropriate flag to the spec file for that.
21:56:33 <ais523> oerjan: your /// looping method looks like what I was trying and failing at
21:56:59 <GregorR> Why is /// colloquially called "slashes" instead of "slashslashslash"
21:56:59 <ehird> oerjan: now implement BF in /// ;-)
21:57:14 <GregorR> That's it, I'm making a language called //
21:57:18 <AnMaster> <GregorR> I agree, there should be a -O<the two most basic optimizations there are, being constant folding and register allocation> <-- some basic DCE would work too. Like when GCC emits "mov $0,%eax; mov $0,%eax;" after each other
21:57:46 <ehird> "As it is, text takes a lot of memory so dissuading the programmer from using a lot of text was probably a good thing."
21:57:49 <GregorR> It's hard to draw the line :P
21:57:56 <ehird> ais523: you know you talked about inherently large things?
21:58:03 <ehird> on the C-64, text was inherently large :-)
21:58:13 <GregorR> <ehird> ais523: you know you talked about inherently large things? *THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID*
21:58:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, not really. If it hurts debugging in gdb then don't do it
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21:58:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: "Hurts debugging in gdb" is ill-defined.
21:58:38 <oerjan> ehird: actually i'm considering an actual turing machine, that fits better i think
21:58:52 <ehird> oerjan: as a first step, why not implement slashes in slashes?
21:58:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, "value optimised out" is HURT definitely.
21:59:02 <ehird> that doesn't prove anything, but if slashes can do an infinite counter and also implement itself
21:59:04 <ehird> it seems likely to be TC
21:59:15 <ehird> (require preparsing ofc)
21:59:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, anything breaking s is too. If it breaks si then I'm fine with it.
22:00:50 <oerjan> ehird: but a turing machine or cellular automaton is so easy to do with local substitutions
22:01:06 <oerjan> s/local/global/, possibly
22:01:06 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 }|T],
22:01:06 <AnMaster> [#bfn{ ins = set, off = Offset, val = V1 } = A|Result]) ->
22:01:06 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]);
22:01:15 <ehird> oerjan: BCT can be done with repeated really-regular regexs
22:01:31 <ehird> oerjan: so it's very trivial to prove a lang tc with it
22:02:04 <ehird> AnMaster: how is ais523 meant to respond to that
22:02:08 <ehird> "oh, that's nice"?
22:02:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be one of many alternatives.
22:02:39 <ehird> "I am a piece of bread on fire."
22:02:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not as likely, but not technically impossible.
22:03:02 <AnMaster> another would be saying something like "oh like in prolog"
22:04:12 <oerjan> ehird: hm yeah BCT might be nice
22:04:30 <ehird> very trivial to implement
22:05:21 <AnMaster> what is BCT in this context? Below Turing Complete? Bread fire Control Template?
22:05:31 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BCT
22:05:47 <ais523> possibly the simplest of all languages to implement
22:05:56 <ehird> Boh Clike Tinprolog
22:05:57 <ais523> you can do cyclic tag in stuff where even BF would be a nightmare
22:06:31 * ehird notes that a piece of bread on fire is colloquially called "toast"
22:06:38 <ehird> Bitwise Cyclic Toast.
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22:11:15 <oerjan> hm also with BCT both the program and data might simply be data in the /// program, needing only trivial recoding
22:11:40 <oerjan> while for a turing machine you'd recode the state transitions as substitutions
22:11:58 <ehird> so get on coding ;-)
22:12:01 <ehird> it should be ubertrivial
22:14:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, are you about to prove /// TC?
22:14:23 <ais523> shouldn't take long, BCT is more or less a natural fit for this sort of thing
22:14:30 <ais523> I'm not sure if an interp or compiler would be easier, though
22:17:33 <ehird> the true marvel is that bct is tc
22:18:12 <ehird> "PRESS PLAY ON TAPE" — C64.
22:18:36 <ehird> AnMaster: There is no tape :-P
22:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a tape emulator surely
22:18:51 <ehird> it has no play button
22:18:56 <ehird> unfortunately my .prg doesn't seem to load... it just tries to load forever
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what emulator are you using
22:19:00 <ehird> probably I missed an entry point
22:19:28 <ehird> from asie's celf_main.asm ".null $9e,^main"
22:19:32 <ehird> I assume that has something to do with it
22:19:57 <ehird> nope; Turbo Assembler
22:20:38 <AnMaster> cd /usr/bin; sudo ln -s perl turbo-sed
22:20:57 <ehird> Did I mention that the C-64's 5'44" floppy drive was more powerful than the C-64?
22:21:14 <AnMaster> ehird, um. Powerful in what measure?
22:21:30 <ehird> not sure about RAM though
22:21:35 <AnMaster> why did the tape have a CPU...
22:21:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it implemented DOS
22:21:52 <ehird> but the disk operating system
22:21:55 <ehird> and the filesystem
22:22:18 <ehird> AnMaster: from the C-64 you called out to the floppy drive to run disk-operating-system commands
22:22:21 <ehird> to manipulate the filesystem
22:22:29 <ehird> you could access the floppy directly but it was harder
22:22:48 <ehird> AnMaster: the c64 ran at 0.9mhz in pal countries
22:22:50 <ehird> and had 64K of RAM
22:22:52 <Deewiant> That's kind of how every piece of hardware works these days
22:22:56 <ehird> it made sense to outsource the disk operation
22:23:04 <ehird> due to the insanely low system resources
22:23:14 <ehird> and what Deewiant said
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22:23:19 <fizzie> For contrast, the tape drive doesn't really have much in the way of electronics in it; so you have to PRESS PLAY ON TAPE manually.
22:23:23 <ehird> AnMaster: NTSC was 1mhz.
22:23:41 <AnMaster> I don't see how this is related
22:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know... screen refresh rates?
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22:23:54 <AnMaster> guess it was slow enough you had to time them
22:24:03 <Deewiant> Screen refresh rates are my guess
22:24:04 <ehird> they are not very fast machines
22:24:20 <ehird> probably it's timed so it can do calculation and update the screen at the native fps of the television
22:24:31 <AnMaster> ehird, US has 110 V and Europe has 230 V. Power supply can't be the reason.
22:24:32 <fizzie> Different video signal pixel clock, and just a suitable fraction of that for the CPU.
22:25:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, so video refresh was faster than CPU?
22:25:09 * ehird attempts to input a * on this c64
22:25:11 <AnMaster> Wait, you meant the other way around
22:25:17 <ehird> I can't find the key :^)
22:25:52 <fizzie> It's more about the pixel clock than actual frame rates. But yes, the video clock is faster than the processor, I think. It depends on the sort of resolution you want, of course.
22:26:10 * ehird attempts to figure out how to list the files on the drive
22:26:50 <fizzie> Wikipedia says "14.31818 MHz (NTSC) or 17.73447 MHz (PAL)" clock for the video chip, and that was divided with some suitable constant to get the CPU clock signal.
22:27:14 <ehird> fizzie: I wonder if the demosceners tried to do calculation on the video chip
22:27:19 <fizzie> LOAD "$",8,1 and the LIST. Or some such thing.
22:27:21 <ehird> "Just a second, the screen will go haywire..."
22:27:34 <ehird> Well, I guess I've loaded it the wrong.
22:27:45 <fizzie> Yes, you load "$" to get a LISTable list of the disk.
22:27:47 <ehird> or assembled it the wrong
22:27:54 <fizzie> LOAD "*" will load the autoloadable program.
22:27:56 <ehird> fizzie: ?OUT OF DAT ERROR
22:28:01 <ehird> (with the two spaces)
22:28:09 <Deewiant> I haven't actually used a C64, so maybe I should just shut up.
22:28:09 <ehird> % ./64tass flickr64.asm -o flickr64.prg
22:28:11 <fizzie> And 8 is the unit. I don't really remember what the 1 is.
22:28:19 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:28:41 * ehird pilfers more CELF code.
22:28:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Device number, target location IIRC
22:28:46 <fizzie> I don't think I have a working C64 emulator and/or any .d64 file, so I can't really try these. But I do seem to remember that it was LOAD"$" and LIST.
22:28:51 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:28:57 <Deewiant> 8 being the first disk drive, 9 being the next
22:29:26 <Deewiant> The other one was some kind of enum where 0 was for BASIC and 1 for asm proggies
22:29:32 <Deewiant> Can't remember the details of that one
22:30:32 * ehird kicks the assembler
22:30:38 <ehird> I'll try and assemble CELF to see if that works.
22:31:01 <ehird> It prints "LOADING CELF..."
22:31:09 <ehird> So im doin it rong
22:31:49 <ehird> The question is... what am I doing wrong?
22:33:07 <ehird> you'd think it'd be easy to compile
22:33:26 * ehird reads the 64tass manual
22:34:59 <ehird> 64tass = port of Turbo Assembler to unices/windows.
22:35:20 <ehird> AnMaster: and I'm not sure; I copied CELF's header and it didn't work but the one in the 64tass manual worked.
22:35:25 <ehird> I suppose CELF changed it for OSly things
22:35:31 <AnMaster> ehird, so Turbo is optimising?
22:35:41 <ehird> It's called Turbo because it's fast?
22:35:55 <ehird> http://xs539.xs.to/xs539/09202/picture_1960.png ← Pretty ugliness.
22:36:05 <ehird> (the program increments the border background, the regular background, then loops.)
22:36:14 <ehird> (Since it does this in a tight loop, it happens more than once per screen redraw.)
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22:36:53 <ehird> the header in question is
22:36:56 <ehird> .null $9e,^main;will be sys 4096
22:37:02 <ehird> and I have no idea what it does
22:37:04 <ehird> I think *=$foo means
22:37:08 <ehird> in the assembled file
22:37:19 <ehird> and I suppose 2005 is a magical c64 header
22:37:37 <ehird> then... I don't know what the null thing is
22:37:43 <ehird> Or exactly what ss is doing
22:38:28 <AnMaster> what is the best way to optimise that
22:38:35 <fizzie> prog.add(new Data(new byte[] {0x0c, 0x08, 0x0a, 0x00, (byte)0x9e,
22:38:35 <fizzie> (byte)'0', (byte)'2', (byte)'0', (byte)'6', (byte)'2', 0, 0, 0}));
22:38:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you can do that without any sort of loop
22:38:44 <fizzie> I've only been doing c64 .prg files completely manually. :p
22:38:53 <ehird> AnMaster: c[-1] = p[0];
22:38:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Um needs an if at least
22:39:06 <fizzie> It's the sort of header that should be there; I think that (byte)0x9e corresponds to what you have.
22:39:12 <ehird> if (p[0]) {p[-1]=p[0];p[0]=0;the rest of the stuff you had}
22:39:16 <ehird> is the optimal optimization
22:39:18 <AnMaster> ehird, but that is kind of Strong AI opt as far as I can see.
22:39:19 <fizzie> The header is there in order to make the BASIC interpreter run the assembly program.
22:39:34 <ehird> it's trivial that's what it is
22:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird, trying to see how the program could figure this out
22:40:12 <AnMaster> it is a copy,set with side effects
22:40:49 <bsmntbombgirl> i wonder how powerful of a computer can you make utterly solid state
22:41:13 <AnMaster> bsmntbombgirl, with a large enough passive heat-sink: any
22:41:28 <AnMaster> mind you, you might need a larger room in the most extreme cases
22:41:34 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: any: radiator
22:41:47 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: see: totally no noise by zalman
22:41:58 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article302-page1.html
22:42:04 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: convective cooling
22:42:19 <ehird> which one is it, I forget
22:42:45 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article301-page1.html
22:42:53 <ehird> completely passively cooled system that was quite good in 2006
22:42:58 <ehird> you could use the same sort of techniques to cool anything
22:43:37 <ehird> pretty useless though; you can get a system with one or two fans for like a bajillion times less fuss
22:43:40 <bsmntbombgirl> but i think you have to allow a pump to be practical
22:43:43 <ehird> and if you put it a meter or so away from you inaudible
22:44:00 <ehird> if you can cool something with few fans, it's probably the quietest way
22:46:09 * ehird searches for a simple reference of all c64 opcodes
22:47:25 <bsmntbombgirl> seems like the psu is the most difficult to cool in such situatioins
22:47:39 <AnMaster> use interference to cancel out the loud fans
22:47:41 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: you can get passive psus
22:47:43 <fizzie> Re the disk drive, probably the most important use for the processor in there is that you can make it do music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnMgmlKi_o promises to have an example; I don't feel like listening to it right now.
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22:47:58 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: look up silverstone
22:48:03 <ehird> http://www.hardware.info/images/news/silverstone_st45_1_550.jpg
22:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think about that idea
22:48:08 <ehird> 450W passive psu by silverstone
22:48:15 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: everything's shit without airflow
22:48:23 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: endpcnoise do some high-end fanless computers
22:48:32 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html
22:48:53 <ehird> so core 2 duo 3.3ghz, 280 watt seems to be the most you can feasibly do fanlessly
22:49:00 <ehird> w/ an ssd of course
22:49:02 <ehird> that's not bad at all
22:49:03 <AnMaster> ehird, my solution should solve ALL the issues!
22:49:47 <AnMaster> but I remember reading about headphones that used interference to cancel out outside noise.
22:50:03 <ehird> the easiest way to muffle computer noise is via the AcoustiPaks.
22:50:15 <ehird> soundproofing materials, pretty much
22:50:17 <ehird> http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/acoustipack.asp
22:51:09 <AnMaster> bsmntbombgirl, why is it cheating. And why won't it work well
22:51:55 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: empirical evidence suggests yes ;-)
22:51:58 <AnMaster> bsmntbombgirl, I'm aware of that it isn't technically trivial. But with enough effort it should be possible to get it to work
22:52:06 <AnMaster> but I don't see why it is "cheating"
22:53:11 <bsmntbombgirl> http://www.qrdc.com/Quiet_Computer_PC_Parts/PC_Water_Cooling/ATX_Watercooled_500W_PSU/221
22:53:14 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: did you look at www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku?
22:53:18 <ehird> also, watercooled!=passive
22:53:25 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html
22:53:29 <AnMaster> bsmntbombgirl, Fair enough. But why do you want solid state.
22:53:51 <ehird> as a theoretical exercise
22:54:20 <ehird> AnMaster: also, you simply can't get 0dB without fully solid state
22:54:31 <ehird> totally inaudible, yes. 0dB, no.
22:54:49 <AnMaster> ehird, Hm... I wonder how feasible cancelling out the sound would be though.
22:55:05 <ehird> that's what it's for
22:55:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant with interference.
22:56:24 <AnMaster> ehird, since I know it is possible. As I said above: I saw some headphones that used interference to cancel out outside noise.
22:57:02 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control
22:58:26 <bsmntbombgirl> http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=744914
22:59:13 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: hellooo? i've been linking you to a totally solid state computer that's relatively good spec-wise
22:59:33 <ehird> as a proof of what you can do
22:59:35 <ehird> max out http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html
23:00:12 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what do you mean doubt it works?
23:00:13 <AnMaster> ehird, um the cd isn't solid state
23:00:21 <ehird> AnMaster: so take it out, child.
23:00:23 <AnMaster> that isn't completely solid state
23:00:42 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: it's enough to power a dual-core @ 3.33ghz & 4gb *shrug*
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23:00:53 <ehird> the superpowered i7 I'm getting maxes out at around 400 watt
23:01:00 -!- inurinternet has joined.
23:04:53 <AnMaster> I even used headphones with ANC when flying once.
23:05:11 <ehird> The Amazing Flying Human
23:06:01 <fizzie> I doubt anyone will want to wear headphones all the time, though; and noise cancellation is rather a lot trickier when you don't have such a good control as to what sound's going to enter the ear.
23:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, Just sitting in the co-pilot seat. The heaphones with com and radio had noise cancelling.
23:06:17 <ehird> AnMaster: you sit in seats in the air‽‽‽‽
23:06:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, no way I'm going to take off the headphones in a noisy C-172 though!
23:08:36 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
23:08:40 <ehird> i wrote my awesome c64 program
23:08:44 <ehird> but I used 16 bit variables
23:08:51 <ehird> guess how many bits the c64 registers are?
23:09:06 <ehird> sooooo I either have to split it across two registers or put it in memory
23:09:38 <ehird> think my dad has one somewhere.
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23:10:36 <fizzie> I have a C128 in the closet ↑ that way, like I've probably said several times.
23:10:44 <fizzie> It has a reasonably compatible C64 mode, though.
23:11:07 <ehird> oh wait, it adds on
23:11:20 <ehird> as in, "inc x,y" is inc (x+y) i think
23:11:27 <fizzie> You can't really use 'xy' as a pair, anyway.
23:11:34 <ehird> i'd like to, though.
23:11:37 <ehird> since the maths would be simple
23:12:07 <fizzie> If you want to do 16-bit arithmetics, you'll have to do it with add-with-carry and some carry-handling.
23:12:09 <ehird> i know, thus im trying to figure out how to do it best :P
23:12:24 <ehird> fizzie: my loop is very mundane
23:12:40 <ehird> it's just "loop x from $d800 to $dbff"
23:12:46 <ehird> ;increment, if >$dbff reset
23:12:58 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: yep
23:13:26 <fizzie> It's just not a 16-bit CPU, you can't use it like it were. :p
23:13:41 <ehird> i just don't know how to address, say, $dbff when all you can do is
23:13:45 <ehird> which is inc (x+y)
23:14:02 <ehird> the literals can be $xxxx
23:14:05 <ehird> if you do inc $xxxx
23:14:23 <fizzie> You can use absolute addressing with INC, so you can increment any byte in memory.
23:14:48 <fizzie> Like you did there, inc $xxxx. I mean, assuming it's constant.
23:15:05 <ehird> fizzie: well, it's not, since I'm looping from $d800 to $dbff
23:15:15 <fizzie> If you need a 16-bit pointer-type of thing, you're pretty much going to have to use the indirect addressing modes.
23:15:25 <ehird> fizzie: great, how do you use them
23:15:28 <ehird> these docs are woeful
23:17:11 <fizzie> LDA ($ab,X) or LDA ($ab),Y -- where $ab is a memory address on the zero page (there's a couple free for temporary use, I think); the first will load A with the data in memory address pointed to by $ab+X and $ab+X+1.
23:17:24 <ehird> ah, the 4-byte zero page?
23:17:29 <ehird> asie said something about that
23:17:45 <fizzie> For the second, it's the memory address pointed to by $ab and $ab+1, with Y added to it after indirection.
23:17:55 <ehird> fizzie: but... those are still 8 bit right?
23:18:22 <fizzie> Well, no, in the sense that it uses the bytes at $ab and $ab+1 to form the 16-bit address where to load the 8 bits of A from.
23:18:59 <fizzie> Then you can (painfully) increment the 16-bit value at $ab and go on with your loop.
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23:19:14 <ehird> fizzie: so if you have $ab=ff and $ab+1=33, it behaves like LDA $ff33?
23:19:27 <fizzie> I think it might've been little-endian.
23:19:39 <ehird> well the c64 is so
23:19:47 <ehird> fizzie: is $ab an example or the actual addr :P
23:20:13 <fizzie> An example; I don't remember what the "free" bytes are (if you don't want to mess the C64 kernal stuff).
23:22:57 <fizzie> Anyway, if you want to write A to all bytes $d800..$dbff, you probably want to: loop through the values $d8..$db at some zero-page address $00ab (and keep $00ac == 0); and for each of those values do a single inner loop of Y=0..Y=$ff executing STA ($ab),Y.
23:23:30 <ehird> should be easy enough once i figure out where the zero page is
23:23:32 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk in-between
23:23:46 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what would it do
23:24:01 <AnMaster> ais523, you might be interested
23:24:07 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what is tile :p
23:24:08 <fizzie> FREKZP00FB-00FE251-254Free 0-Page Space for User Programs
23:24:15 <ehird> fizzie: ooh, thanks, where's that from
23:24:18 <fizzie> ehird: Those are the four officially free bytes you can use there.
23:24:22 <fizzie> http://www.cbmitapages.it/c64/c64ram.htm
23:24:32 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what arch is it?
23:24:33 <ais523> AnMaster: now is a bad time for me, RL-wise
23:24:41 <AnMaster> ais523, ok. It will stay there.
23:24:52 <ais523> fizzie: 4 bytes? the BBC Micro had an entire 32 bytes of Page Zero for the user
23:24:55 <fizzie> I think the official C64 programming guide had a reasonable memory map in it too; that is available as an e-text somewhere. In many places, I think.
23:24:56 <AnMaster> I think the design is very nice thoigh
23:25:07 <ehird> ais523: the c-64 is rather hardcore
23:25:08 <fizzie> ais523: There are a lot of bytes you can abuse, IIRC.
23:25:21 <ais523> actually, given that it's only 256 bytes large, 32 was an immensely large allocation for the user to play with
23:25:58 <ehird> 23:22 fizzie: Anyway, if you want to write A to all bytes $d800..$dbff, you probably want to: loop through the values $d8..$db at some zero-page address $00ab (and keep $00ac == 0); and for each of those values do a single inner loop of Y=0..Y=$ff executing STA ($ab),Y.
23:26:01 <ehird> don't you mean put it in 00ac
23:26:04 <ehird> and leave 00ab = 0
23:26:22 <fizzie> I was a bit big-endian there.
23:26:25 <ehird> I wonder if them defaulting to 0 is in the speck
23:26:27 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/files
23:26:53 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what do they run on
23:28:54 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what architecture do the tile64s use
23:28:56 <ehird> fizzie: foo.asm:17: Extra characters on line "sta ($00fb),0"
23:29:05 <ehird> seems like we dun be supporting nonuvat syntax.
23:29:07 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: oh.
23:29:22 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: shrug; it seems like you'd need something really hugely parallel to use it properly
23:29:44 <fizzie> ehird: It's "STA ($FB),Y" you want; there's no such thing as ",0" there -- if you don't want an offset, you'll have to clear Y.
23:30:05 <ehird> there's a better way to clear y than "ldy #$00"? :p
23:30:48 <ehird> foo.asm:18: Constant too large "sta ($fb),x"
23:31:26 <fizzie> You need to use Y with it.
23:31:41 <ehird> fizzie: it's a bloody odd syntax if you have to put ,y in there
23:31:42 <fizzie> Or you can write "STA ($FB,X)" if you want, since X=0.
23:31:55 <ehird> welp, works now with y
23:32:14 <ehird> nothing happens on the graphical display
23:32:47 <fizzie> It's either indexed-indirect with ($ab,x) or indirect-indexed with ($ab),y; but you always have to use x and y depending on the style you want. It's a bit... limited.
23:33:13 <ehird> I'm using ($ab),y.
23:33:35 <ehird> Is $d800-$dbff not actually video memory?
23:34:30 <fizzie> I've completely forgotten what the graphics modes look like; but I'm sure there's no direct-mapped framebuffery thing. It's all very 8x8-raw-pixel-tiley.
23:35:07 <ehird> Oh, I know, I'm doing text mode here
23:35:20 <fizzie> Oh. Well, I don't remember where that was either. :p
23:35:22 <ehird> asiekierka said that $d800-$dbff was the colours for chars, I think.
23:35:27 <ehird> The issue may be that there's no char there.
23:35:46 <ehird> Of course, finding a slot that is used would be überwork.
23:38:28 <fizzie> Yes, the foreground color of characters seems to be at that range; one byte per character, but only 4 lower bits are actually stored.
23:39:03 <ehird> fizzie: do you just sort of pick up the info from anywhere or are you getting this from an infallable resource?
23:39:06 <ehird> i'd like to know which if the latter
23:39:57 <fizzie> Googling for random strings this time. I did have some sort of bookmark collection back when I was doing a bit of C64 stuff, but I'm sure I've misplaced it.
23:41:06 <fizzie> http://www.c64.ch/programming/c64prg10.txt is the official reference guide; large sections of it are pretty basic-oriented, but there's useful stuff too.
23:42:17 <fizzie> For example, even though the "programming graphics" chapter 3 speaks of POKEing a lot, the memory addresses are the same. And chapter 5 is about assembly-things.
23:42:50 <fizzie> It is a bit overfond of decimal numbers, though.
23:44:41 <fizzie> Will have to sleep now; have 64fun.
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23:48:03 <ehird> “here is my virus, it's contained in the scanner for HIV 1. it scanns the disk for HIV1 (and removes it when it is found) but infects with HIV2.”
23:48:04 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: finally i splitted esotope-bfc into bfc package. not refactored yet, but it is being closer to pluggable architecture.
23:48:16 <ehird> just like the fake antiviruses for windows of today!
23:48:32 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: c64 viruses
23:48:38 <ehird> to clear up confusion :p
23:48:39 <lifthrasiir> Expr is moved to bfc.expr module, IR is to bfc.nodes, etc.
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23:58:01 <bsmntbombgirl> http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/includes/modules/image_browse.php?code=665&type=more&nindex=0
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00:38:40 <nooga> porting mobile app written on windows to iphone -> 10022 errors
00:41:51 <oerjan> ^ul ((:*)::*^S:):(f)~^(u)~^(c)~^(k)~^(!)~^
00:42:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((:*)::*^^S:):(f)~^(u)~^(c)~^(k)~^(!)~^
00:42:45 <fungot> ffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:49:14 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
00:49:26 <oerjan> even EgoBot doesn't have that
00:50:35 <nooga> ^sadol !+*"1f+99*"1u+99
00:51:20 <nooga> !sadol !+*"1f+99*"1u+99
00:51:20 <EgoBot> BDSM: Invalid argument types for '*': string, integer (index: 2, row: 1, col: 3)
00:51:44 <oerjan> GregorR accepts patches
00:52:10 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
00:52:33 <GregorR> hg bundles would be nice :P
00:54:12 <oerjan> nooga: you can also add things via the *interp commands, if it's written in a single file in a language that is already there
00:54:20 <oerjan> (although that doesn't recurse)
00:54:40 <oerjan> (programs can be URLs)
00:54:52 <oerjan> that's how i added slashes
00:55:02 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
00:55:55 <nooga> but written in C++
00:56:13 <GregorR> !cxx cout << "I can do C++" << endl;
00:56:53 <coppro> heh... !addinterp c++ /msg geordi
00:57:37 <nooga> http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/
00:58:00 <nooga> compile it and voila
00:58:37 <nooga> at least unless my SADOL->x86 compiler written in ruby will be finished ;F
00:59:03 <GregorR> Huh ... this seems to be the same version I already have ...
00:59:38 <GregorR> Yeah, that's the version I have.
00:59:45 <EgoBot> BDSM: Invalid argument types for '*': string, integer (index: 1, row: 1, col: 2)
01:00:01 <nooga> but it should multiply the string like perl does
01:00:29 <GregorR> I don't know why that's not doing what you expect, but that is the version I have.
01:02:27 <GregorR> Is Sadol newline-sensitive perchance?
01:03:08 <nooga> that string multiplication was my private patch
01:09:32 <GregorR> I should add a command like !addfullinterp <name> <url> <compiled interp name> that downloads code, extracts it, configures it (if applicable), builds it, and !addinterps it
01:13:26 <nooga> !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@<in(2]rs:i+i1r !+m"1f+99m"1u+69
01:13:26 <EgoBot> ffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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01:14:33 <GregorR> !sadol (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
01:14:34 <EgoBot> (4:C",216!"9(4:C",216!C!C!"9(4:C",216!C!C
01:14:44 <nooga> reversed one is cooler
01:15:01 <GregorR> !sadol http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/99_bottles_of_beer.sad
01:15:03 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer.
01:15:15 <nooga> jaro3000 wrote it in his head when he was on his way to school
01:17:12 <nooga> huge brain, he won Polish OI
01:18:09 <nooga> OI -> Olympiad in Informatics
01:18:49 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
01:19:32 <nooga> since when this is an international pub? :d
01:19:54 <oerjan> you know, i think 99 bob should be a kind of milestone for such things, like beethoven's 9th for cds
01:20:06 <oerjan> iow, please increase the limit
01:20:37 <oerjan> also, it might be nice if the dcc chat repeated the first line
01:21:38 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
01:22:01 <oerjan> EgoBot: you are a bit confused
01:22:10 <nooga> i think... sadol code looks quite cool, but the language is totally lame :C
01:22:20 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
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01:23:34 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
01:25:30 <GregorR> nooga: http://www.debian.org/ :P
01:25:54 <nooga> !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@<in(2]rs:i+i1r !m"5hate 5
01:25:54 <EgoBot> BDSM: Executing: Invalid argument for ']' - single character expected (index: 28, row: 1, col: 29)
01:25:58 <oerjan> GregorR: EgoBot hates digits?
01:26:08 <GregorR> oerjan: Only 'show' did :P
01:26:23 <nooga> !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@<in(2:r+rs:i+i1r !m"5hate 5
01:26:23 <EgoBot> hate hate hate hate hate
01:26:41 <nooga> !sadol ~m2(6:r"0:s#_0:n#_1:i0@<in(2:r+rs:i+i1r !m"5hate 9
01:26:41 <EgoBot> BDSM: Parsing: Unsupported character: '' (index: 40, row: 1, col: 41)
01:27:27 <GregorR> I see there are still no shafuck programs.
01:30:31 <Sgeo> I am going to kill AVG: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/avg_annoyance.PNG
01:31:15 <GregorR> Sgeo: Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
01:35:27 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
01:36:49 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
01:37:25 * oerjan is just testing dcc_autochat_masks
01:37:52 <puzzlet> but why does it assume the source ends with newline
01:38:00 <GregorR> That's just how it's passed in.
01:39:13 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
01:39:17 <EgoBot> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
01:41:21 <lifthrasiir> !sadol `````````",246",241",236",231",226",221",216",211"9!"6Hello!
01:41:44 <nooga> wtf? trying to kill eval?
01:42:34 <nooga> hmm, i'll try to implement towers of hanoi in sadol ;f
01:44:41 <GregorR> Y'know what I just realized? It's easy to write one particular program in ShaFuck ...
01:44:50 <GregorR> The null program is a valid program that does nothing.
01:51:51 <nooga> it does a segfault :D
01:52:33 <oerjan> GregorR: how embarassing :D
01:52:49 <oerjan> <GregorR> The null program is a valid program that does nothing.
01:53:06 <GregorR> That makes it trivially simple to write a program :(
01:54:06 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: is there any nontrivial shafuck program?
01:54:30 <GregorR> There almost certainly /is/ in that such a thing could exist, but it would take billions of years to find one.
01:59:00 <Sgeo> GregorR, how did you test the interpreter?
01:59:27 <GregorR> Sgeo: I removed the sha'ing part to make sure the BF part worked, and made it output the sums to make sure the SHA'ing part works.
02:00:07 <Sgeo> I should declare war on the warp
02:00:08 <lifthrasiir> hmm, assuming that f(h0..h4, chunk) is a SHA-1 compression function where chunk is 512 bits long, the calculated brainfuck program is f(f(...f(0x67452301, ..., 0xC3D2E1F0, first 512 bits of chunk), next 512 bits), ...), last 512 bits, fixed 512 bits 0x8000...002000). maybe.
02:00:35 <GregorR> SHA-1 is a compression function now. Interesting.
02:00:37 <lifthrasiir> (since SHA-1 preprocesses the chunk by appending padding and original length)
02:01:09 <GregorR> Compression isn't useful if it's irreversable and not 1-to-1 ...
02:01:49 <lifthrasiir> GregorR: SHA-1 consists of preprocessing step and compression function, and compression function merges previous hash with current block of data
02:04:13 <lifthrasiir> if we have to search the program space exhaustively, we could use that construction as shortcut; only last two application of "f" is needed, other application remains same and precalculated
02:04:32 <nooga> darwin ports don't work
02:07:14 <Sgeo> So, when can we expect the first ShaFuck hello world?
02:07:46 <Sgeo> ascii version?
02:08:14 <bsmntbombgirl> ascii encoding of brainfuck, rather than the 3 bit encoding
02:08:46 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: unlikely, even MD5 is not totally broken (afaik best attack against MD5 is chosen-prefix attack, but it requires the known prefix)
02:08:48 <Sgeo> Is there a standardized 3bit encoding?
02:09:40 <Sgeo> I was asking out of curiosity
02:09:41 <lifthrasiir> bsmntbombgirl: does that treat any non-command chars as error?
02:09:56 <nooga> dude transformed to girl again?
02:11:48 <Sgeo> Creatures gender-bending: http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/genderconf.png
02:14:30 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: that is what makes it so hard, it is essentially impossible to find a legal program
02:14:48 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: right, it's surely harder than malbolge
02:14:52 <oerjan> while with a 3-bit encoding you get something legal to start combining
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02:20:27 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: Unary maps 0..7 to ><+-.,[]; MGIFOS maps 1..8 to ><+-.,[]; Braincopter maps 0..7 to ><+-.,[] and treats 8..10 special.
02:21:04 <lifthrasiir> (okay, mapping for two ternary digits is an another story)
02:21:38 <lifthrasiir> <Sgeo> Is there a standardized 3bit encoding?
02:21:47 <Sgeo> I meant what was that about mapping to ternary
02:22:25 <Sgeo> Wow, it's almost like "?" is completely ambiguous as to what the question's about
02:22:41 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: for example, Ook maps every command to two ternary digits (actually the "digit" is one of Ook. Ook? Ook!)
02:24:32 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.26421: line 1: ls/interps: No such file or directory
02:24:39 <lifthrasiir> there are several cases maps bf commands to similar thing; Cupid uses the digit of >, < or - and so on.
02:25:41 <oerjan> !sh ls -l interps/unlambda
02:25:42 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: interps/unlambda: Function not implemented
02:28:44 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/underload
02:29:13 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload.bin
02:29:13 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.26570: line 1: interps/underload.bin: No such file or directory
02:30:05 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload.bin -
02:30:05 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.26599: line 1: interps/underload.bin: No such file or directory
02:30:51 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin
02:30:51 <EgoBot> Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile]
02:31:18 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -
02:31:18 <EgoBot> Usage: derl (-o|-a) [inputfile]
02:31:27 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o -
02:31:27 <EgoBot> -: No such file or directory
02:32:29 <oerjan> !sh echo '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o
02:32:29 <EgoBot> testAttempt to execute unknown command 10
02:33:02 <oerjan> !sh echo -n '(test)S' | interps/underload/underload.bin -o
02:36:46 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any idea how to implement a half of bit data type? (like TURKEY BOMB)
02:38:12 <lifthrasiir> well TURKEY BOMB's BI_IT type is 0.528 bits, anyway
02:42:18 <GregorR> oerjan: It took you a lot of tries to get that :P
02:49:39 <Sgeo> BI"Two thirds of a bit plus half a trit. "
02:50:15 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: yes, that holds 2/3 log_2 2 + 1/2 log_2 3 bits = approx. 0.528 bits of information.
02:50:46 <lifthrasiir> anyway i wonder that there is general principle for such types containing fractional number of bits
02:51:35 <Sgeo> Is TURKEY BOMB implemented?
02:51:37 <Sgeo> Or implementable?
02:52:39 <Sgeo> "A structure containing three other types, specified at compile-time, all of which must be different, one of which must be another HUMIDOR. " sounds impossible
02:53:01 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access interp/egobf: No such file or directory
02:53:06 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory
02:53:28 <Sgeo> I wanted to try programming in it
02:54:24 <GregorR> !sh ls interps/egobf | xargs echo
02:54:25 <EgoBot> AUTHORS COPYING ChangeLog INSTALL Makefile Makefile.am Makefile.in NEWS PORTING README aclocal.m4 config.h config.h.in config.log config.status configure configure.ac scripts src stamp-h1
02:54:30 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/egobf/scripts | xargs echo
02:54:30 <EgoBot> compile depcomp install-sh missing missing-real
02:54:45 <oerjan> where the heck is the binary?
02:55:02 <oerjan> !sh ls interps/egobf/src | xargs echo
02:55:03 <EgoBot> Makefile Makefile.am Makefile.in bfc.c bfc.h bfi.c bfi.h c2m c2m.c c2m.h egobfc egobfc-bfc.o egobfc-egobfi.o egobfc-optimize.o egobfc2m egobfc2m-c2m.o egobfc2m-egobfi.o egobfi-wib egobfi-wib.in egobfi.c egobfi.h egobfi16 egobfi16-bfi.o egobfi16-egobfi.o egobfi16-optimize.o egobfi32 egobfi32-bfi.o egobfi32-egobfi.o egobfi32-optimize.o egobfi64 egobfi64-bfi.o egobfi64-egobfi.o egobfi64-optimize.o egobfi8 egobfi8-bfi.o egobfi8-egobfi.o egobfi8-optimize.o
02:56:20 <oerjan> !sh echo '++++++++[->++++++++<]>.' | interps/egobf/src/egobfi8
02:57:07 <oerjan> addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl
02:57:11 <oerjan> !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl
02:57:14 <EgoBot> Interpreter ook installed.
03:00:00 <oerjan> !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook.
03:00:01 <EgoBot> No comma allowed after filehandle at /tmp/input.27191 line 15.
03:00:24 <EgoBot> Interpreter ook deleted.
03:00:27 <oerjan> !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl
03:00:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter ook installed.
03:00:31 <oerjan> !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook.
03:00:31 <EgoBot> Can't exec "interp/egobf/src/egobfi8": No such file or directory at /tmp/input.27276 line 13, <> line 1.
03:00:58 <EgoBot> Interpreter ook deleted.
03:01:00 <oerjan> !addinterp ook perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ook.egobot.pl
03:01:01 <EgoBot> Interpreter ook installed.
03:01:03 <oerjan> !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook.
03:02:47 <oerjan> !ook Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook? Ook! Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook.
03:04:09 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[>+++++++Ook. Ook.<-]>.
03:04:22 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[>+++++++Ook. Ook. <-]>.
03:04:43 <pikhq> !sh cd interps/egobf/src ; make
03:04:44 <EgoBot> make: Nothing to be done for `all'.
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04:26:08 <oklodok> ais523: i cracked nim for the three number case.
04:27:36 <oklodok> cracked as in found all triples that lose
04:29:26 <oklodok> but the "formula" describing them contains such a beautiful set of permutations there must be something very simple behind it, but it escapes me, as i'm just studying behavior, not actually trying to solve from the recursive definition of winning (which would require intelligence)
04:30:04 <oklodok> also if someone, after hearing this, tells me how it works and it's so simple it fits a line
04:30:22 <oerjan> oh. i will not do that yet then.
04:31:04 <oklodok> i wanna solve this, this is already my third attempt, and this time i actually managed to solve enough to trivially beat ais523's enigma level, so it's at least somethin
04:31:45 <oklodok> well okay first two attempts weren't really attempts, i was just looking for a trivial solution by enumerating the possible levels
04:34:15 <oklodok> gah, why can't i be like a super math genius or something
04:35:51 <oklodok> oerjan: on a scale from one to seven, how complex would you say the rule describing win-states is
04:36:41 <oerjan> mind you, given you know the necessary concepts.
04:36:51 <oerjan> but i am absolutely sure that you do.
04:37:10 <oklodok> does, say, ehird know them?
04:37:19 <Sgeo> What's going on?
04:37:33 <oerjan> i would be surprised if there was a regular in this channel which didn't
04:37:40 <oklodok> Sgeo: i'm asking oerjan about a thing i don't want him to tell me about.
04:38:07 <Sgeo> What are the necessary concepts?
04:38:10 <oerjan> also there are probably several others who know the actual solution from before.
04:38:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: if we told that, it would be trivial
04:38:23 <oklodok> Sgeo: that's what i don't want to know
04:39:08 <oerjan> oklodok: as a small consolation, i don't think i deduced the solution myself before reading it
04:41:05 <oklodok> hmm. probably the fact the permutation thingie i found arises from the solution is more mathematically significant than the actual solution is.
04:41:29 <oklodok> which is what usually happens when trying to reverse-engineer sequences i guess.
04:43:00 <pikhq> Nim... Nim... Oh, yeah. That was a weird game.
04:45:39 <oklodok> meh, i'll give up for now, and retry in a few months.
04:46:16 <oklodok> hopefully no one tells me the solution so it can be my life's work.
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06:37:44 <bsmntbombgirl> READ char -1 temp temp -1 char temp -1 NULL temp QUIT char WRITE -1 char char CODESTART char: 0 temp:
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07:38:21 <GregorR> <bsmntbombgirl> READ char -1 temp temp -1 char temp -1 NULL temp QUIT char WRITE -1 char char CODESTART char: 0 temp:
07:40:44 <GregorR> That was just so purely context-free it was amazing ;P
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07:50:08 <GregorR> I still want to see a MISC implementation though, MISC has a nice compact binary format. (The fundamental instruction in subleq and MISC is the same, right? Like, there's no difference on 0 or whatnot)
07:50:37 <GregorR> And it has to not be written by me, because if it was I'd end up making a MISC ELF file format, and nobody wants that.
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07:54:57 <GregorR> Err, sorry, didn't mean "compact" :P
07:55:02 <GregorR> Really just meant "nice" :P
07:55:13 <GregorR> It's actually anything but compact, of course.
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08:00:44 <GregorR> That /is/ why the system call is called unlink.
08:00:53 <GregorR> After all, if it was removed, then multiply linked files would be really wonky.
08:01:29 <GregorR> That's the only reason why anyone would say the line <bsmntbombgirl> that's why the system call is called "unlink"
08:01:37 <GregorR> I was trying to act psychic, in a silly way :P
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08:29:29 <psygnisfive> a language in which there must be no ambiguity as to what is applied to what, thanks to types
08:30:50 <psygnisfive> i imagine that for a large number of functions the notation would require that it be completely prefix or completely postfix
08:31:10 <psygnisfive> and i guess obviously in postfix notation there never /is/ ambiguity so..
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13:44:56 <lereah_> No one would happen to know how to do a statistical distribution that is, while random, constrained to have a fixed sum?
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13:56:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how do you do the polynom bit
13:57:15 <AnMaster> the optimisation page seems outdated
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14:04:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you write IWC today?
14:05:04 <oerjan> it's not like DMM is unknown for puns
14:06:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah but it was exactly in your pun style
14:08:11 <oerjan> hm sure it's not more like a reddit pun thread
14:08:29 <oerjan> of course i assume that's geeks everywhere
14:11:16 * oerjan decides .sss is a good extension for slashes files
14:21:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you manage to implement BCT in it?
14:22:05 <AnMaster> or are you still working on it
14:22:30 <oerjan> i'm currently rewriting my counter program to use the much simpler method
14:22:37 <oerjan> it is now simple enough to do by hand
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14:51:36 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss
14:52:17 <oerjan> yay, EgoBot managed 89 lines
14:52:29 <oerjan> some improvement from 2 :D
14:54:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
14:54:24 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
14:54:28 <fungot> lereah_: oh, really? does he do american standard or freestyle?
14:54:31 <fungot> lereah_: if we're in the matrix." and over here, and here. recent releases. just pick one, and give it to me.
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14:55:13 <fungot> asiekierka: fucking refs. those calls were bullshit! huh? bullshit, right? i don't think i want anymore.
14:55:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube
14:55:27 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
14:55:43 <oerjan> ah this time EgoBot hit the byte limit instead of time
14:56:44 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
14:56:51 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
14:56:56 <fungot> lereah_: for a bug is in the current directory will be casted to an imaginary label preceding it.
14:57:13 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
14:57:18 <fungot> asiekierka: this reference guide is designed to do this successfully, you could copy the contents of a photograph).
14:57:58 <asiekierka> oh, so you CAN'T copy the contents of a photograph on the C64 unless you want to do this successfully? O_O
14:58:25 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
14:58:37 <fungot> asiekierka: slen. did her grand-sire leaue her seauen hundred pound? euan. i most unfeignedly beseech your lordship call her backe
14:58:39 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
14:58:54 <lereah_> fungot, let's have sex with little girls
14:58:54 <fungot> lereah_: fnord. all pale people are fnord no one can sing who has a cold.'
14:59:08 <lereah_> Does Lewis Carroll say fnord?
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15:09:35 <GregorR> Do you have some PROBLEM with 24?
15:11:00 <oerjan> i do. the day needs more hours.
15:15:09 <asiekierka> currently improving putc to support a more defined "charset"
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15:19:56 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
15:20:14 <pikhq> fungot: Winnitude.
15:20:14 <fungot> pikhq: over here. i'll see you.
15:25:38 <asiekierka> Oh woah, I actually finish $00-$7F (i currently ignore $00-$1F)
15:27:20 <asiekierka> So I ignore $00-20 (except 08 and 10) and process $20-$7F
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15:46:46 <oerjan> So now the simpler counting program is on the wiki with some explanation.
15:48:19 <oerjan> It prints growing lines of asterisks
15:48:53 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Slashes#Simpler_counter
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16:03:10 <asiekierka> What my puts routing does now is output the first char, some spaces and the last char
16:05:08 <asiekierka> I did lda, inx and stx on the same value
16:07:01 <oerjan> i don't mean to imply that i _know_ 6502 asm
16:07:22 <oerjan> but i did write my own disassembler to peek into memory
16:07:44 <oerjan> which was a bit awkward as the manual lacked several pages of instructions
16:09:44 <asiekierka> ah, Oric-1 and it's awkward graphic mode
16:09:59 * asiekierka doesn't have stuff to reminisce cuz he's too young to see an Oric-1 in his life
16:10:41 <oerjan> it worked well enough for a bit of mandelbrot as i recall
16:11:31 <asiekierka> and you could only have 2 per a 6x1 block
16:12:52 <GregorR> asiekierka: Watch and learn.
16:13:07 <GregorR> I bought it three years before I was born, in a country I wouldn't go to for another 20 years.
16:13:15 <oerjan> technically it's in the drawer next to me
16:13:26 <GregorR> I learned BASIC on my Oric-1.
16:13:37 <oerjan> technically it's my father's
16:13:56 <asiekierka> if yes, then GO AND PLUG IT THE HELL ON
16:14:26 <oerjan> i recall it gave some horrible interference when i plugged it in
16:14:38 <oerjan> it may not be safe in a modern house
16:15:00 <oerjan> also, my only tv is in a closet
16:15:06 <asiekierka> Well, our "2nd channel" is so strong it actually went through the C64 RF cable
16:15:16 <asiekierka> so i could receive it (very weakly) through an RF cable
16:15:17 <GregorR> BUILT IN LANGUAGE Oric Extended Basic v1.0
16:17:21 * oerjan recalls graphing trigonometric functions with it
16:17:22 <asiekierka> oerjan: also, connect it to a TV tuner
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16:58:45 <nooga> after compiling half of gnu things i've managed to install irssi on this mac fuc
16:59:37 <ehird> "sudo port install irssi"
16:59:42 <nooga> yea, macports did that for me :D
16:59:52 <ehird> you made it sound more traumatic than it was then :p
17:00:41 <nooga> i'm getting used to this whole osx
17:00:54 <nooga> all in all it's quite pleasant
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17:01:43 <lifthrasiir> is there any sane irc client in mac os x, excluding console-based one?
17:01:52 <ehird> lifthrasiir: LimeChat!
17:01:58 <ehird> http://limechat.net/mac/
17:02:04 <ehird> (Ignore the stuff about RubyCocoa; the OS X version works fine.)
17:02:15 <nooga> i imagine that pleasure is comparable to having a big, warm cock in your anus
17:02:38 <ehird> Let's just imagine the conversation died for 5 minutes.
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17:02:56 <GregorR> Why do people never get this distinction: The anus is just the opening, the RECTUM is the cavity :P
17:03:09 <nooga> i don't know about this stuff
17:03:15 <nooga> i'm not homosexual
17:03:59 <ehird> i'm lauxesomoh, basically I'm only homosexual if I'm going backwards in time
17:04:14 <nooga> wo, limechat looks better than colloquy
17:04:20 <ehird> that's because it is.
17:04:34 <ehird> colloquy's a buggy piece of crap that tries to avoid saying "channel" :p
17:04:43 <nooga> let me DELETE colloquy.app from my Applications
17:04:57 <ehird> oh, and this theme is nice: http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/
17:05:10 <ehird> the default ones seem to be either out of place or ugly
17:06:11 <nooga> but now i've got my irssi D:
17:06:26 <ehird> nooga: you came out with some libraries and shit too
17:06:32 <ehird> i bet irssi didn't take long to install at all
17:06:39 <ehird> it's not even compiled iirc, i think it's written in perl
17:07:07 <nooga> but ports compiled perl, ncurses, glib, gettext and other stuff
17:07:14 <ehird> so you come out with that
17:07:53 <ehird> i mean the time spent installign irssi is not wasted if you like limechat :P
17:08:54 <nooga> excuise me, i not understand
17:09:14 <ehird> 17:06 nooga: but now i've got my irssi D:
17:09:17 <ehird> i thought that meant like
17:09:21 <ehird> but i just spent all this time installing irssi
17:09:25 <ehird> i can't like limechat
17:10:06 <nooga> it's just that i like irssi and i don't see a reason for installing lime
17:10:25 <ehird> 'cuz lime's more maclike and better :p
17:12:13 <nooga> it's written in ruby
17:12:26 <nooga> i just loved it instantly :F
17:12:52 <ehird> nooga: remember you don't need to install rubycocoa
17:12:58 <ehird> the one in recent osxs works
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17:16:03 <nooga> yea, i figured it out
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17:17:30 <nooga> ugly themes are ugly
17:17:53 <ehird> nooga: use the Colloquial one :P
17:18:21 <ehird> although you have to click the alert to get rid of it, I'm not sure why
17:18:26 <ehird> probably you can fix that in growl settings
17:18:47 <nooga> where was that theme?
17:18:52 <ehird> http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/
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17:22:51 <nooga> now it's white and cool
17:22:59 <ehird> nooga: logs aren't enabled by default btw
17:23:07 <ehird> you have to enable Transcripts in the prefs if you want them
17:23:57 <ehird> if you're not in many channels you can resize the bottom window to nonexistance
17:24:04 <ehird> since it just shows messages from channels you're not looking at atm
17:24:37 <nooga> thanx, did it at the beginning
17:25:31 <nooga> any other useful apps that you'd recommend?
17:27:06 * ehird glances at dock. I use Adium for inferior-to-IRC IM services, I edit some stuff with TextMate (and other stuff in other editors :p)... apart from that... eh... I use Seashore for basic image editing stuff? And Transmission for torrents. And I have a few VM apps. Oh. And Enigma's quite a fun game. That's pretty much all I use
17:27:17 <ehird> Oh, and I use Audacity for basic audio editing. My app selection is quite an uninteresting one.
17:28:26 <nooga> i can't afford textmate :D
17:29:02 <nooga> adium, transmission; got them
17:29:14 <ehird> nooga: It's $65... BBEdit, the "standard" Mac editor since the System 7 days, costs $99.
17:29:23 <ehird> So it's quite a deal ;-). You can pirate it anyhoo.
17:29:23 <nooga> isn't enigma a remake of oxyd?
17:29:36 <ehird> enigma's a remake + extension + lots of levels of oxyd and similar games
17:29:48 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what
17:29:52 <nooga> ah, played oxyd magnum under dos
17:29:55 <nooga> and enigma under linux
17:30:07 <ehird> enigma's #esoteric's official computer puzzle game :p
17:30:18 <ehird> well. official unofficial.
17:30:20 <ehird> you know how it is
17:30:59 <ehird> nooga: I THINK YOU SHOULD INSTALL ECLIPSE IS VERY GOOD JAVA ID*blown to bits*
17:32:10 <Slereah> "It may seem perverse to use a computer, that most precise and deterministic of all machines conceived by the human mind, to produce "random" numbers"
17:35:13 <nooga> can't crack textmate ;d
17:35:24 <ehird> nooga: search for a shady serials website and search for textmate there.
17:36:46 <ais523> hey, a mac botnet was discovered
17:36:56 <ais523> it seems that people put trojans into "cracked" software
17:37:05 <ais523> and got people to install the botnet software that way
17:37:14 <ehird> ais523: you can't get trojans off serial keys.
17:37:23 <nooga> it's not linux, i don't feel secure
17:37:26 <ehird> also, that usually happens more with the Gnutella type networks than bittorrent
17:37:31 <ehird> nooga: it's based on freebsd
17:37:34 <ehird> if anything you should feel more secure :p
17:38:11 <nooga> there are no such things like fishy cracks and shady warez for linux ;p
17:38:21 <ehird> nooga: sure there is
17:38:28 <ehird> I pirated Mathematica, you can get mathematica on Linux
17:38:43 <ehird> anyway, there aren't fishy/shady cracks/warezes on OS X; I've only seen serial keys
17:38:55 <ehird> for mathematica i had to fire up a windows vm
17:43:40 <ais523> ooh, the EC just fined Intel £948m
17:43:59 <ais523> it's the same bunch of people who keep fining Microsoft for anticompetitive practices, it seems they think Intel has been up to much the same thing
17:44:00 <nooga> ehird: what's with my home, end and del keys?
17:44:08 <ehird> nooga: what about them
17:44:18 <ehird> ais523: 948 million pounds ?!
17:44:34 <ais523> yep, that might almost be large enough to actually make a dent
17:44:37 <nooga> end and home jump to end and beginning of a file
17:44:49 <ehird> ais523: hell yes; Intel/AMD profits haven't been too good lately
17:45:01 <ais523> Intel are apparently planning to appeal
17:45:01 <nooga> i'd like s/a file/a line/
17:45:04 <ehird> Revenue▼ US$37.6 billion (2008)[1]
17:45:04 <ehird> Operating income▲ US$9.0 billion (2008)
17:45:05 <ehird> Net income▼ US$5.3 billion (2008)
17:45:11 <ehird> ais523: hardly surprising
17:45:20 <ehird> Ctrl-A, ctrl-E (from emacs)
17:45:34 <nooga> and delete does not work
17:45:40 <ais523> ugh, a drop from $5.3 to $3.8 or so is quite a massive dent in net income
17:45:40 <ehird> nooga: which delete
17:45:43 <ehird> forward or backwards
17:45:46 <ais523> no wonder Intel are so annoyed
17:46:04 <ehird> ais523: £948m is pretty damn excessive...
17:46:17 <ehird> i mean, even if they are guilty
17:46:28 <ais523> apparently it was for bribing manufacturers to not use AMD chips
17:46:31 <ehird> unless they killed kittens or sth
17:46:56 <ais523> <BBC News> In addition to providing rebates to manufacturers that bought almost entirely Intel products, the Commission found that the chipmaker had paid them to postpone or cancel the launch of specific products based on AMD chips.
17:47:02 <ehird> ais523: it's more like "we'll cut this deal on our chips you want IF you avoid using amd chips in more than n% of your products"
17:47:03 <ehird> or something like that
17:47:16 <ais523> yep, where n% is close to 0
17:47:33 <ais523> there was that case a while back where AMD gave some manufacturer loads of free chips, and they refused to use them
17:47:34 <ehird> this is a pretty quick decision
17:47:40 <ehird> I only heard about the case yesterday or the day before
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17:47:45 <ais523> and the case has been going for ages
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17:47:57 <ehird> 17:47 ais523: there was that case a while back where AMD gave some manufacturer loads of free chips, and they refused to use them
17:48:00 <ais523> it hit the news a couple of days ago because the probable verdict leaked
17:48:01 <ehird> that would suggest to me that these bribes are gigantic
17:48:24 <ais523> ofc, there are other reasons to not use a load of free chips, say if it would be too expensive to redesign your machinery to install them
17:48:29 <ehird> maybe they can handle the fine if they stop offering them :-)
17:48:53 <ehird> In [Commodore] PET Microsoft Basic (3000 series only), typing the command “WAIT 6502,100” will fill the screen with the text "MICROSOFT!"[5]
17:48:57 <ais523> the thing I love about all these fines is that they're added to the EU tax budget
17:49:02 <ais523> which indirectly means lower taxes for us
17:49:09 <ehird> let's fine every company!
17:49:34 <ais523> only if they do something illegal
17:49:39 <ais523> although, most companies do, probably
17:49:44 <ehird> let's declare being a company to be illegal :|
17:49:47 <ais523> and corporation tax is at about 30% or 40%, IIRC
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17:50:53 <ehird> I wonder why people use Intel/Nvidia and AMD/ATI and rarely other combinations (even before AMD bought ATI)
17:51:26 <pikhq> That's really weird, especially since for a while Nvidia made very good AMD chipsets.
17:52:15 <ehird> Terrible theory: AMD seem to use more black and dark blue and red and other dark-sort-of-feeling colours in their marketing, and so does ATI. Intel is white and blue, Nvidia is light green. Perfect fits.
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17:53:58 <ehird> "TODAY IS SO YESTERDAY." — intel.com
17:54:01 <ehird> http://www.intel.com/
17:55:05 <ehird> "They would have paid their ad men more to come up with a slogan, but they've been fined a billion euros for breaching competitivity law." —friend, on seeing that
17:55:18 <ehird> everything related to current events is hilarious.
17:55:54 <ehird> http://www.nvidia.com/object/GeForce_3D_Vision_Main.html ← 1. Sell 3D glasses for a load of money 2. Claim it's revolutionary 3. Profit
17:56:16 <pikhq> ais523: The EU has been fining quite a few companies for antitrust.
17:56:41 <pikhq> To be fair, they *are* legitimate cases.
17:56:58 <pikhq> The US's stance on monopolies lately has resulted in a repeat of the early 1900s. ;)
17:57:13 <ais523> I agree, /someone/ needs to enforce the rules
17:57:27 <pikhq> And the US sure isn't.
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17:57:40 <nooga> from 10022 compilation errors i've got 9991
17:57:46 <ehird> [["Copy Exactly" solves the problem of getting production facilities up to speed quickly by duplicating everything from the development plant to the volume-manufacturing plant.]]
17:57:47 <ehird> Yo dawg, I herd u liek fabricators so I made a fabricator for your fabricator so you can fabricate your fabricators
17:57:52 <pikhq> (I suspect they've forgotten how to)
17:58:02 <ehird> pikhq: There are people in the US who think that the current crisis is due to not enough people reading Ayn Rand.
17:58:12 <ehird> If the free market is causing issues, clearly what we need is MORE of a free market!
17:58:17 <pikhq> ehird: Ayn Rand is an idiot.
17:58:37 <pikhq> People who agree with Ayn Rand are people who need a Darwin Award.
17:58:40 <ehird> MARKET AWESOMENESS AS FREENESS INCREASES: Crap, Awful, Terrible, Unbearable, Crisis shitter, AWESOME
17:59:10 <pikhq> "Hmm. Lack of regulation caused this. Obviously, we need to bring back Standard Oil."
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18:14:34 <nooga> is there some tool that is capable of building #include diagram ?
18:14:52 <nooga> to clearly show the whole graph, what includes what
18:15:15 <ais523> but i do't know of one
18:15:30 <nooga> so i am supposed to write that?
18:15:30 <ais523> thanks for the correction
18:15:42 <ehird> nooga: wouldn't be hard
18:15:59 <ehird> anyone remember the atari st
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18:35:37 <Asztal> doxygen can, I believe
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19:05:19 * AnMaster is trying to come up with an elegant way to merge across distance in the tree of bf instructions
19:06:55 <AnMaster> finding that previous set to offset, and then convert into for
19:11:47 <nooga> the graph came out little.... hairy
19:12:28 <nooga> how to adjust vertical distance between nodes? they're packed A BIT too tight
19:15:21 <AnMaster> no idea (I don't use graphviz much), check man page?
19:15:43 <nooga> i have no idea which property does it
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20:08:13 <nooga> wanna see the graph? :D
20:11:40 <nooga> http://sv017.sendspace.pl/file/J2ey9Jf9/XuZGdVBByJRfdqhI/test.pdf ;D
20:15:15 <Slereah> Your face is pretty cool bro
20:15:32 <nooga> Your fece is pretty cool bro
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20:21:49 <ehird> [[British pub has exploited a loophole in the country's smoking ban by opening a "smoking research centre"]]
20:21:59 <ehird> SCIENCE WILL TRANSCEND FASCISM!
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20:32:20 <fizzie> I think some sort of smoking-room at our university was labeled that.
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20:35:49 <GregorR-L> I'm on SUPERSLO public WiFi at an airport
20:38:34 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: \o/
20:38:47 <ais523> well, my computer's here, because if it was somewhere else I couldn't IRC using it
20:38:58 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: boot it up without putting it together
20:39:03 <ehird> that's something that takes real skill
20:39:09 <ehird> telepathic wires in the astral plane
20:39:30 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: do eet
20:39:40 <ais523> what sort of computer is it?
20:39:41 <ehird> what os you putting on it? still undecided? :P
20:40:02 <ehird> ais523: the one I assembled the parts for
20:40:06 <ais523> and you may as well try out the OS it has at the moment (presumably Vista?), to see if you like it
20:40:06 <ehird> to replace his crusty p4
20:40:14 <ehird> he bought it in parts'
20:40:29 <ais523> well, the choice would be a Linux distro, FreeDOS if you're insane, or Windows System Builder
20:41:03 <ehird> tl;dr summary: Core i7 940 @ 2.9ghz... 12GB DDR3 RAM... ancient nvidia card... Intel X25-M 80gb ssd... 1TB storage drive
20:41:41 <ehird> final cost I think was $1,700 or so, right bsmntbombgirl?
20:41:53 <fizzie> You left out the most important detail of all: what color it is.
20:41:56 <ehird> ps did you go and have another sex change?
20:42:08 <ehird> fizzie: the case is the oh-so-uncommon computer colour black
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20:42:19 <fizzie> Black is the new beige.
20:43:32 <pikhq> And beige is the new white.
20:43:33 <ehird> things that confuse me: people commenting on expensive computers saying "what a waste you could buy a car with that money". why would you buy a car if you use your computer much more?
20:43:36 -!- nooga has joined.
20:43:42 <pikhq> (beige Apple computers in 3, 2, ...)
20:43:56 <ehird> pikhq: Macs are alumininium these days.
20:44:02 <pikhq> ehird: These are people that use their cars more.
20:44:16 <pikhq> ehird: Except iMacs.
20:44:29 <ehird> the imacs are aluminium
20:44:38 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: \o/
20:44:52 <ehird> pikhq: the only white product is one of the low-end macbooks
20:44:57 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: how loud is it?
20:44:59 <Asztal> what graphics card, out of interest?
20:45:11 <ehird> Asztal: it's a really shitty passive nvidia :)
20:45:16 <pikhq> Aluminium is the new white.
20:45:22 <pikhq> And beige is the new aluminium!
20:45:24 <ehird> well okay not that shitty
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20:45:35 <GregorR-L> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/PowerBook_redjar.jpg
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20:45:36 <ehird> i can't believe anyone actually liked beige
20:45:36 <bsmntbombgirl> i am switching monitor and keyboard back and forth
20:45:47 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what did it boot in to
20:46:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: yeeees?
20:46:27 <pikhq> Nobody liked beige. Beige was merely a convenient color.
20:46:30 <GregorR-L> ehird: Oh I'm sorry, you were talking about the modern PowerBook Pros, that's a Powerbook G4
20:46:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: Modern powerbook pros?
20:46:50 <ehird> You mean modern macbooks
20:46:58 <ehird> Power anything went with intel
20:47:04 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what did it boot into?
20:47:11 <GregorR-L> You'd think I'd be able to tell that since I'm staring right at a (non-pro) MacBook X_X
20:47:29 <ehird> GregorR-L? Using a mac?
20:47:57 <pikhq> Ah; early computers were beige so that they wouldn't stand out in an office.
20:48:05 <fizzie> Back when I got the iBook, el-cheapo iBooks were white, while all really-someone people had those titanium PowerBooks.
20:48:05 <pikhq> So, beige was used because beige is boring.
20:50:19 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: ping
20:50:57 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: you said it booted, what did it boot in to :
20:52:23 <GregorR-L> Wow, that's one lame definition of "booted"
20:52:39 <ehird> More accurate: POSTed
20:52:40 <ais523> did you then get the no-OS error?
20:52:49 <ehird> Insert OS and press F1.
20:53:53 <ehird> YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE SHIT UP AND EXPECT THE COMPUTER TO MAGICALLY KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, RETARDO!
20:53:59 <ehird> [Press F1 to continue]
20:54:35 <pikhq> [Press F1 to continue]
20:54:54 <GregorR-L> Critical failure computer will explode in 15 seconds omfgrunrunrun
20:55:11 <fizzie> The P150 laptop I have here is sort-of mid-gray, that's not such a common color: http://www.pcrtp.com/700CDT.gif (not exactly that model, but I think it's the same housing)
20:56:08 <fizzie> http://www.toshiba-europe.com/bv/computers/products/notebooks/tecra730cdt/index.shtm
20:56:28 <ehird> fizzie: Heavy duty.
20:56:33 <fizzie> "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today!"
20:56:34 <ehird> "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today! Now there's the Tecra 730CDT. "
20:56:59 <GregorR-L> "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor"
20:57:11 <ehird> It has a 150MHz pentium!
20:57:12 <fizzie> The 12.1" TFT at 1024x768 resolution is essentially as good as in my iBook, though.
20:57:19 <pikhq> Not even a Pentium MMX. Lawlz.
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20:57:24 -!- slowpoke has changed nick to slowpoke_.
20:57:25 <GregorR-L> ehird: Just not /much/ raw speed >_>
20:57:44 <fizzie> (Except that with only 2 megs of video RAM, you have to degrade to 64k colors if you want the native panel resolution.)
20:57:51 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to Egolitarian.
20:57:59 <pikhq> ... Is that a Pentium with the *FDIV* bug? :)
20:58:06 <fizzie> Yes, I think it has the bug.
20:58:27 -!- slowpoke_ has changed nick to ehird.
20:58:30 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:58:39 <fizzie> I seem to at least recall Linux kernel saying something like "FDIV bug detected, working around it" in dmesg.
20:58:53 <ehird> "2160 million bytes hard disk"
20:58:54 <Egolitarian> There was a line of m68ks that didn't have an FPU, and furthermore would crash and burn horribly if you tried to use an FPU operation, even though it's supposed to just have an unsupported instruction interrupt.
20:59:04 <ehird> Two thousand one hundred and sixty MILLION bytes!
20:59:07 <Egolitarian> They used them it Macs, and you can't install Linux on them :P
20:59:22 <ehird> http://www.toshiba-europe.com/bv/computers/navigation/left/products/page_icons/pi_tecra730cdt.gif Look at the red-faced man in the suit!
20:59:34 <fizzie> They certainly are proud of their big numbers.
20:59:36 <fizzie> "the 2.16 billion byte hard disk and 16 MB EDO RAM (expandable up to 144 MB - yes that's one hundred and forty four MB)"
20:59:46 <fizzie> YES THAT IS REALLY 144 IT BOGGLES THE MIND
20:59:57 <fizzie> I think I have 48 MB in that thing.
21:00:05 <ehird> "Lithium-ion battery Up to 3.0 hours"
21:00:11 <ehird> Up to THREE HOURS of CONTINUOUS USE!
21:00:37 <fizzie> Also 6-speed CD-ROM drive; which is unable to read CD-RW discs; only CD-R discs work.
21:00:41 <Egolitarian> ehird: I doubt I'd get three hours of use on this (if I was compiling every version of OpenOffice in the background)
21:01:19 <pikhq> fizzie: Nice, a nearly 2G hard drive. ;)
21:01:20 <ais523> a 2.16 billion byte hard disk, but only 144 MB of memory?
21:01:23 <ais523> that's rather unbalanced
21:01:35 <ehird> "No beep - Power supply, system board problem, disconnected cpu, or disconnected speaker, "
21:01:38 <ehird> — wikipedia on POST
21:01:40 <fizzie> pikhq: I've replaced the original 2.16 billion byte HD with a 2G compactflash card, though.
21:01:56 <ehird> It actually purposefully signals no beep.
21:02:07 <pikhq> You could probably stick 16G microdrive in there without too much issue.
21:02:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:02:46 <ehird> "3 long beeps - 3270 keyboard card"
21:02:50 <ehird> Oh shit, your system is really broken?
21:02:54 <ehird> What's wrong with it?
21:03:01 <ehird> Well, y'see... it's 3270 keyboard carded.
21:03:23 <pikhq> ehird: A system without a keyboard controller can't enter 32-bit execution.
21:03:59 <pikhq> Because enabling 32-bit mode involves sending a message to the keyboard controller, since that happened to have a free I/O line.
21:04:16 <ehird> the chimes of death >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post error beeps
21:04:46 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: how's your new system working? fried it yet?
21:07:06 <pikhq> That's right: to enter 32-bit execution, you send a signal to the keyboard controller to *get it to stop hogging the 21st address line*.
21:08:30 <pikhq> And modern motherboards merely emulate that behavior, because 386 motherboards did it.\
21:08:35 <fizzie> You don't have to actually implement a full keyboard controller, you can do a system which has enough of the framework in place so that the A20 line..
21:09:11 <pikhq> God, i686-pc-* is such a screwy architecture.
21:12:23 <fizzie> And the whole possibility of disabling the A20 line (forcing that bit 0) was there because they wanted the 286 to be backwards-compatible for some dirty DOS programs that assumed the memory to wrap-around when it went past 1 MB, since the original 8086 didn't have that many address lines.
21:13:07 <pikhq> So it's cludge after cludge.
21:13:27 <ehird> I'm pretty sure Nehalems are entirely backwards compatible to the original x86.
21:13:38 <ehird> It's rather entrenched.
21:13:47 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: bah?
21:13:51 <Egolitarian> I'm surprised they're not backwards-compatible with the original 4004 :P
21:14:02 <ehird> Egolitarian: IA32 only. :-P
21:14:05 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: ... why?!
21:14:05 <pikhq> Egolitarian: The 8086 wasn't backwards-compatible.
21:14:22 <pikhq> ehird: IA16, you mean.
21:14:26 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what os did you brun
21:14:29 <ehird> pikhq: True enough.
21:14:53 <ehird> You can't run IA16 code on IA32/AMD64 machines.
21:15:02 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: masochist :)
21:15:16 <pikhq> It is in fact necessary.
21:15:18 <fizzie> FreeBSD. Are you sure you want to do that? See: http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/the_power_of_freebsd/
21:15:21 <tombom> there's nothing wrong with windows, don't be silly.
21:15:30 <pikhq> The processor starts in real mode, which is... IA16.
21:15:31 <ehird> tombom: I will now shoot you.
21:15:39 <ehird> tombom: I suggest suicide to avoid trauma.
21:15:45 <pikhq> The processor goes into IA32 from there.
21:16:06 <ehird> also bsmntbombgirl: what fizzie said.
21:16:13 <ehird> i've wiped out planets just installing bsd.
21:17:28 <Egolitarian> You cannot run 16-bit real-mode code while in 64-bit mode.
21:17:30 <fizzie> But you can no longer run 16-bit code when the processor is in the native x64-64 "long mode", which is a pity. Well, at least the "virtual 8086" mode is gone from that, anyway.
21:17:39 <fizzie> Gah, why do I always conflict with people.
21:17:42 <ehird> you can't run 16 bit code
21:17:56 <pikhq> Yes. I never said you could.
21:18:07 <pikhq> I said that a Nehalem could still execute 16-bit code.
21:18:12 <Egolitarian> But the processor can run 16-bit code, just not while in 64-bit mode.
21:18:23 <ehird> You can't run, when in 64-bit long mode,
21:18:30 <Egolitarian> ..............................................
21:18:30 <ehird> on a modern IA32/AMD64.
21:18:37 <ehird> Guys, did you know that
21:18:42 <ehird> Ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis
21:18:44 <ehird> -ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis-
21:18:47 <ehird> -ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis-
21:18:50 <pikhq> IA32 is a different architecture from AMD64.
21:18:53 <pikhq> IA32 is a 32-bit architecture.
21:18:55 <Asztal> I did know that, it's why edlin was removed from x64 windows :(
21:18:56 <ehird> pikhq: Thus the slash.
21:19:09 <pikhq> And you can run 16-bit code on modern IA32.
21:19:12 <Asztal> not that I use edlin, but I just feel like it should be there
21:19:15 <ehird> Asztal: edlin was removed because ellipsis ellipsis ellipsis ell-
21:19:26 <pikhq> You can even run it on modern x86_64, just not in long mode.
21:19:35 <Egolitarian> Asztal: And yet, ed is still available for equally-stupid people on Unixen :P
21:19:40 <Asztal> it's the oldest program in windows and they just remove it like that
21:19:42 <ehird> Hey! I've used ed.
21:19:51 <ehird> And fruitful, sometimes.
21:19:55 <ehird> 21:19 Egolitarian: Asztal: And yet, ed is still available for equally-stupid people on Unixen :P
21:20:10 <ehird> "Although seldom used in modern times, Edlin may sometimes be used as an Edlin-script interpreter, in environments where no other editors exist. Scripts may look like Edlin command sequences and they may be run as:
21:20:11 <pikhq> Egolitarian: ed is about as old as ls. It's not ever going away. :p
21:20:16 <fizzie> They also removed DEBUG.COM from Windows 7. (I'm not sure what's the status of that in x64 windows; don't have any.)
21:20:16 <ehird> If no other editors exist, how did they create script?
21:20:31 <Egolitarian> I haven't seen ed used in a script in a very long time.
21:20:44 <pikhq> ehird: edlin can be used on its own.
21:20:49 <EgoBot> 47 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>--. [52]
21:20:54 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but it's a silly way to say it :P
21:20:57 <EgoBot> 47 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>--. [208]
21:21:16 <EgoBot> 47 +++++++++[>+++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>+. [68]
21:21:17 <EgoBot> 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [92]
21:21:17 <EgoBot> 47 ++++++++[>++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+.>++. [124]
21:21:20 <ehird> maybe we can optamaze out the >><<
21:21:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it runs too few iterations for it
21:21:56 <AnMaster> two different, equally long solutions
21:22:54 <fizzie> The amount of cells to use (and therefore ><s in the loop) is a fixed parameter for the textgen.java thing that uses; you can specify it on the command line, though, just not in the bot.
21:23:05 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
21:23:27 <AnMaster> odd, where the hell did I put the checkout of egobot
21:23:28 <fizzie> 36 ++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.+.+.+.+. [1]
21:24:04 <ehird> fizzie: do -t 1000
21:24:28 <fizzie> ehird: It'll probably just use a single cell and do a 999-character >>...>><<...<<.
21:24:31 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: so, how much did the 12GB of ram speed up the post
21:24:52 <ehird> that thing takes up like a gajillion point four bytes of ram!
21:24:55 <fizzie> 114 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>+.+.+.+.+. [1316]
21:25:55 <pikhq> Out of immense curiosity, why doesn't that evolutionary algorithm use that for an upper-bound, rather than exactly what it'll use?
21:26:44 * pikhq asks him with in the library with a monkey wrench
21:26:53 <EgoBot> 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [251]
21:27:09 <EgoBot> 38 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.+.>. [95]
21:27:09 <fizzie> I guess it's easier to do crossover when the structures of the programs are so very similar.
21:27:39 <pikhq> ... Because it's inefficient for all but some special cases?
21:27:55 <AnMaster> 27 +++++++[>+++++++<-]>.+.+.+. [1]
21:27:59 <fizzie> Yes; for sensible strings 4 seems to be rather sensible.
21:28:00 <AnMaster> is the best it come up with for 1234
21:29:00 <AnMaster> what does the -t one do really
21:29:29 <bsmntbombgirl> damnit, why can't you find a live cd when you need one
21:29:29 <fizzie> The number of cells it uses.
21:29:35 <fizzie> That's pretty obvious from the outputs.
21:29:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't it evolve that too?
21:30:01 <AnMaster> it's just another parameter after all
21:30:15 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure it's *possible*; it just doesn't do it.
21:31:06 <fizzie> Like I said, it's probably a fixed number of terms so that it's easier to do a crossover mixture of two programs. (Though that's still just a guess; I didn't write it, after all.)
21:31:57 <AnMaster> $ java textgen -p 2 'Hello, World!'
21:32:00 <AnMaster> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: n must be positive
21:32:00 <AnMaster> at java.util.Random.nextInt(Random.java:250)
21:32:00 <AnMaster> at textgen.main(textgen.java:180)
21:32:47 <AnMaster> anything below 10 in population results in that
21:33:19 <fizzie> It should complain earlier.
21:33:28 <fizzie> My version has for -p:
21:33:31 <fizzie> population = Integer.parseInt(cmdline[n + 1]);
21:33:31 <fizzie> System.out.println("Must have population of at least 10.");
21:33:45 <fizzie> Er, I guess that test is botched. :p
21:33:59 <AnMaster> I have the copy from EgoBot's source
21:34:17 <fizzie> This is probably the same.
21:34:32 <fizzie> Anyway, it needs at least 10 because (by default) it keeps the top 10 % of the programs for next generation.
21:34:57 <fizzie> Though that's the "-%" parameter; and it doesn't test for -p+-% combined-sensibility at all.,
21:35:30 <AnMaster> !bf_txtgen To be or not to be that is the question.
21:35:32 <EgoBot> 283 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.<++++.<<++++++++++++++.+++.>>.>.+++.<.<--.+.>>++.<.>.<<.>.<<---.+++.>>.>.<<<+++.-------.>+++++.>.<<++++++++.>-.>.<+.------------.---.>.<<++++++++.++++.>.<--.+.>++++.++++++.-.>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------. [862]
21:36:47 <AnMaster> 226 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.<++++.<.+++.>.>.+++.<.>----.+.+++++.<.>.-----.<.<<++++++++++++++.>.>.>+++++.<<+++.<-.>>>.<.<+.>>-.<.>+.<<-.<++++.>>.<+++++++++.++++.<.>--.+.<++++.>-----.-.>++++++++++++++. [18913]
21:36:52 <AnMaster> is the best I got locally for it
21:37:00 <Gracenotes> well. You could just increment/decrement indiscriminately
21:37:05 <fizzie> It always has one loop.
21:37:13 <AnMaster> it could have more than one I think
21:37:20 <EgoBot> 55 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.+.-.+.-.+.-.+.-.>--. [391]
21:37:37 <EgoBot> 74 ++++++++++++[>>++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>+.>++.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.>.>--. [205]
21:37:38 <fizzie> The program is always "p0 = N; p1 .. pT = N*(k1 .. kT); print things using the p1 .. pN numbers, sometime with +/- as needed."
21:37:39 <Gracenotes> perhaps if you recognized patterns. Keeping track of the variations and number of times to repeat might be cumbersome though
21:38:20 <fizzie> Er, the p1 .. pT numbers.
21:39:25 <fizzie> The Individual.getCode method is responsible for generating it; it is physically unable to generate more than just that one loop.
21:39:47 <EgoBot> 109 +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.>-.>+++.<---.+++++++++++++++++++++.++++.----.>+.--.<------.>>-. [845]
21:40:32 <AnMaster> 99 ++++++++++++++[>++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>+++++.>.++++.>>---.<++++.++++.----.<+.--.>------. [5697]
21:40:34 <fizzie> I assume it would take too long to just generally evolve an arbitrary brainfuck program to print out the desired string.
21:43:00 <AnMaster> !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++.
21:43:25 <AnMaster> still, a simple folding pass over the string afterwards could remove those extra >><<
21:45:28 <EgoBot> 60 ++++++++++[>+>+++++>+++++><<<<-]>>--.+.>.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.<-.<. [171]
21:45:37 <EgoBot> 48 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>-.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>. [242]
21:46:40 <EgoBot> 84 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+++++++++++>+><<<<-]>.>.<.>-.<.-------------.>>-----. [166]
21:46:57 <EgoBot> 84 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++++.>.>+++.>---. [32]
21:47:25 <fizzie> Hm, € needs 3 bytes in UTF-8? Well, I guess the currency symbols are pretty high up there.
21:47:30 <EgoBot> 134 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>+++++.>.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>---.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>---. [580]
21:47:55 <AnMaster> it gave me a 800+ char long string for that here
21:48:51 <fizzie> It is a bit random. Though that large a gap sounds unlikely. Maybe it got encoding-confused or something.
21:49:06 <AnMaster> more than 255 + after each other makes no snese
21:49:16 <AnMaster> unless the java here interprets it as unicode
21:49:42 -!- Egolitarian has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/jw47TY16.html
21:49:57 <fizzie> It might. € is at something past 0x2000, which is 8192 decimal.
21:50:47 <AnMaster> when reading from a file it gives sensible results
21:50:50 <fizzie> Java's native character encoding is UTF-16, and I'm guessing it's using the platform default (hopefully LC_CTYPE, though I have no idea if it is locale-aware at all) to interpret the command line arguments.
21:50:55 <AnMaster> but not when passing it on command line
21:51:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is a bf_txtgen bug!
21:51:40 <fizzie> You could try it with "LC_CTYPE=POSIX java ..." if you want. It might not make any difference, though.
21:52:06 <fizzie> Or "LC_CTYPE=C", that's shorter. I think they should mean the same thing.
21:52:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway LC_CTYPE isn't set, LANG is.
21:52:29 <AnMaster> and that means LC_CTYPE defaults to that
21:52:29 <fizzie> Okay. Well, it's Java.
21:53:28 <fizzie> It's just a generic sort of answer.
21:53:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean "<fizzie> Okay. Well, it's Java."
21:53:35 <fizzie> "Who knows why it works like that? It's Java."
21:54:24 <fizzie> It does do something locale-related, because if I write "LC_CTYPE=C.ISO-8859-1" I get three .s in the output for € (so three bytes) but a bit over 64k + characters.
21:54:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that sort of locale specification even makes sense.
21:55:06 <AnMaster> A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
21:55:10 <AnMaster> a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
21:55:32 <fizzie> "LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO-8859-1 java textgen -t 1 €" seems to generate reasonable output.
21:55:38 <AnMaster> A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ ] ^ _ ` a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
21:56:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:57:05 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++<-]>.------------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------.
21:58:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah it isn't unicode aware
21:58:47 <fizzie> If you want to write it, sure.
21:59:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you give me one of your combined mad ones
21:59:49 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:00:46 <fizzie> Here's the ASCII tilde with a combining tilde both above and below: ~̰̃.
22:00:54 <fizzie> I don't have a very good one handy right now.
22:01:52 <ehird> ais is the master of them
22:01:55 <fizzie> Actually that's just five bytes; ~ is ascii, and the basic combining chars are two-byte ones.
22:01:57 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++<<<<-]>++++++.>------.<+++++.>.>----.>+.
22:02:17 <ehird> write the outputter naively
22:02:21 <ehird> then run an optimizer on it
22:02:22 <ehird> that can output to bf
22:02:25 -!- nooga has joined.
22:02:26 <ehird> like, esotope w/ bf backend or something
22:02:30 <ehird> that could do serious optimization :P
22:02:56 <fizzie> The fungot output looks different, yes. I get the different tildes sequentially. Don't know what's up with that.
22:02:57 <fungot> fizzie: there's been a horrific battle.
22:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, go write such a backend
22:03:45 <fizzie> fungot: But what? The battle wasn't horrific at all?
22:03:45 <fungot> fizzie: time's up. i'm taking the treasure. we are off to save you all? how come holy isn't moving?
22:03:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:04:06 <ehird> fizzie: is it quoting verbatim?
22:04:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Final Fantasy 7
22:04:19 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII
22:04:21 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++<<<<-]>.>-.++++.<-.>>>.<+++.>++.--.<++.<<+.>.+++++++++++++++.-------.>++++++++++.<+.+++++.
22:04:35 <fizzie> The single sentences are almost verbatim, I think; though "we are off to save you all?" does some sort of jump to get that ? there.
22:05:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: EgoBot doesn't do the "code!input" thing in !bf.
22:06:07 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++>++++>++++++<<<<-]>>.<-.++++.>-.+++++++++++....>-..<...>....<<-----------.>>>----.<..<......>>.<..<.......+++++++++++++++++++..--....>++.<<++.>>>.-----------------..<+.<++.>.-....>...<+.<--.>>--.<.<++.-------------------.>.<.....>.
22:06:07 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++.
22:06:13 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>.>>-.++++.<<-.<-......>+++++++++++.....<..>>>-----------.<----.<<........>>--.<++.>>++.<++.<+.<.>.
22:06:14 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.+.
22:06:29 <ehird> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
22:06:32 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [877]
22:06:42 <ehird> !bf_txtgen !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:06:46 <EgoBot> 627 +++++++++++[>++++>+++>+++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>.>-.++++.<-.+++++++++++.<-...>...>>-.<<<.>.>-----------.-----------------------------.<.>>.<-------------------.>.<..<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-------------------.>>>..<.<<......+++++++++++++++++++.>>.>...<<<.>.<--....>>>++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.>>.<.>>+.++++++++++++++++.<.<<----------------.>>.<.>.<.>...<<..>>.<..+++.>>.<.<---...+++.-.>++..<...<-..>..>..+.>--.
22:06:47 <ehird> **EgoBot explodes**
22:06:56 <ehird> Well that is nicely cut off.
22:07:00 <ehird> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>+++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>.>-.++++.<-.+++++++++++.<-...>...>>-.<<<.>.>-----------.-----------------------------.<.>>.<-------------------.>.<..<<.+++++++++++++++++++.-------------------.>>>..<.<<......+++++++++++++++++++.>>.>...<<<.>.<--....>>>++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.>>.<.>>+.++++++++++++++++.<.<<----------------.>>.<.>.<.>...<<..>>.<..+++.>>.<.<---...+++.-.>++..<...<-..>..>..+.>--.
22:07:00 <fungot> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.------------.<
22:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:07:09 <AnMaster> >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
22:07:13 <ehird> Graceful degradation.
22:07:17 <AnMaster> that is the hello world on the wiki
22:07:46 <AnMaster> what is the SHORTEST hello world in bf so far
22:08:04 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some shorter than the one egobot gave
22:12:16 -!- fizzief has joined.
22:12:23 <fizzief> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++>++++>++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>.>>>-.++++.<<<-.>>-....<-.......>>-----------.-----------------------------.<......>.<<....>..<...+++++++++++++++++++.>...<.<+++++++++++..>>..<--....>>-----------------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-------------------------------.<..>>....>+.<<.<..>----------------.>......<<.+++..---...+++.++++++++++++++++..>.<--.>-.+.<.>>......>---..+++.-..<++.....>.+.---...+++.-...<...<.>>......<..<.<++.>---.>+.
22:12:23 <fungot> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>+++>++++<<<<-]>++++++.>++.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.
22:12:29 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: heh
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22:12:40 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: it'll probably run too fast, get confused, and fry itself out of confusion.
22:12:53 <AnMaster> for a newline it gives: +++[>+++<-]>+.
22:12:54 <ehird> that's the problem with fancy-schmancy computers
22:12:57 <fizzie> I had to use telnet for that, for some reason XChat splits lines far earlier than it actually needs to.
22:14:54 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: that cpu cooler's gotta be making a lot of noise
22:15:15 <bsmntbombgirl> it's sitting right next to my current box so i can't tell
22:15:50 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: just be glad your gfx card is passive
22:16:00 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: when in the bios did you check the cpu temp?
22:16:37 <EgoBot> 36 ++++++++++[>+++++>+>><<<<-]>++.--.>. [176]
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22:25:41 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: your cpu is on fire fyi
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22:27:55 <fizzie> A classic: linux-2.6.29.2/drivers/char/lp.c: printk(KERN_INFO "lp%d on fire\n", minor);
22:28:14 <ehird> fizzie: That predates linux, I'm sure
22:28:38 <ehird> fizzie: values of β will give rise to dom!
22:28:55 <fizzie> Yes, I guess so; that just happened to be the most accessible place I could get it.
22:29:06 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: did it explode :-(
22:29:41 <ehird> linux is so awesome that it doesn't need boot media
22:29:49 <fizzie> Well, drivers/net/eexpress.c: printk(KERN_INFO "%s: transmit timed out, %s?\n", dev->name, (SCB_complete(status)?"lost interrupt":"board on fire"));
22:30:07 <fizzie> Those are the only two error scenarios for that chip.
22:30:38 <ehird> fizzie: I like how the board being on fire is just INFO level
22:31:09 <fizzie> "No worries, the board's just on fire."
22:34:55 <fizzie> There's also drivers/macintosh/therm_windtunnel.c for the hardware monitoring on Apple G4 "windtunnel" models; there's an array fan_table with temperatures 55.0, 55.3, 56.0, ..., 60.1 degrees, and a final entry with raw number 0xfffff (corresponding to about 4096 degrees) and the comment "/* on fire */". That's about it for things being on fire, except the usblp driver has the "on fire" as one of the four possible status messages.
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22:40:18 <ehird> fizzie: what about when we invent supernova based cooling
22:40:24 <nooga> ehird: what was that thing you've said i need to instal for dock?
22:40:31 <ehird> you cause an insy winsy little supernova and just ride the CPU on that
22:40:37 <ehird> be more specific :p
22:41:19 <pikhq> fizzie: The "lp on fire" error comes from early, early UNIX systems.
22:41:21 <nooga> i asked what else do i need besides limechat
22:41:27 <pikhq> At the time, the printer could, in fact, be on fire.
22:41:33 <nooga> and you've said something about *** for dock
22:41:54 <ehird> 17:25 nooga: any other useful apps that you'd recommend?
22:41:55 <ehird> 17:27 ehird glances at dock. I use Adium for inferior-to-IRC IM services, I edit some stuff with TextMate (and other stuff in other editors :p)... apart from that... eh... I use Seashore for basic image editing stuff? And Transmission for torrents. And I have a few VM apps. Oh. And Enigma's quite a fun game. That's pretty much all I use
22:41:58 <ehird> 17:27 ehird: Oh, and I use Audacity for basic audio editing. My app selection is quite an uninteresting one.
22:42:29 <nooga> my memory is broken
22:42:29 <pikhq> I don't think he's recommended anything for a dock.
22:42:37 <pikhq> Apart from, say, OS X. :p
22:42:55 <nooga> i thought that you recommend something called 'glances' for dock :D
22:42:58 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: what on earth are you doing
22:43:02 <ehird> nooo:-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
22:43:04 <pikhq> bsmntbombgirl: No, really?
22:43:20 <nooga> i'm trying to resolve that graph i showed
22:43:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombgirl: They're from an era where a 12k modem was very freaking fast.
22:43:36 <nooga> and every node stands for quite big file
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22:45:57 <nooga> http://sv017.sendspace.pl/file/J2ey9Jf9/eUF5lGkJ8pv81sVm/test.pdf
22:47:24 <fizzie> Since there was all that C65/1541 talk earlier, here's another good thing about the floppy drive's programmability: the implemented-in-the-ROM serial protocol had the blazing speed of about 2400 bps, which in other units is 1 floppy / 10 minutes; but since it's programmable, you can write a fast-loader which can transfer floppy -> C64 at speeds of around 30 kbps.
22:47:34 <nooga> ehird: what do you say? :d
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22:47:45 <AnMaster> hah, a set containing sets. Confusing
22:47:50 <ehird> nooga: i can't read polish, where's the download button
22:47:55 <ehird> AnMaster: {{1,2},{3,4}} is confusing?
22:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the first is a set as in the data structure. The second is a [-] set
22:48:00 <ehird> nooga: the big purple one.
22:48:08 <AnMaster> so a set containing locations of [-]
22:48:11 <ehird> nooga: wow that's pretty
22:48:15 <nooga> i thought that's the direct link
22:48:27 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, the C64 floppy was damned cool.
22:48:32 <nooga> 10022 compile errors
22:48:47 <nooga> now i'm trying to resolve this mess and compile it for iphone :D
22:49:02 * AnMaster tries to figure out better names for it
22:49:21 <AnMaster> I'm using the sets module, and the instruction is called set.
22:49:27 <ehird> nooga: i like want to use a scaled down version of that graph as an ornamental header on something
22:50:02 <nooga> porting this lib is impossible
22:51:00 <pikhq> The drive itself had an OS. :)
22:51:17 <ehird> It was more powerful than the C64 as I've said.
22:51:46 <pikhq> The C64 floppy drive had a 6502, the C64 had a 6510.
22:51:57 <pikhq> The 6510 being a 6502 with an additional I/O port.
22:51:58 <ehird> But the muhurts was more.
22:52:02 <fizzie> If you don't like the rank-style graph, you can use the spring-based graphviz layouters like "neato" or "fdp"; those tend to generate more compact stuff. (Though usually that equals to unreadable; then you'll have to add some "avoid overlap" and "route edges" options, and wa-boom, suddenly your reasonable "not very many hundreds of nodes" graph takes multiple hours to layout.)
22:53:05 <pikhq> So, a clever C64 programmer could temporarily replace the floppy drive's OS and have a sort of NUMA multiprocessing setup going.
22:53:33 <pikhq> There's something about that that makes me smile.
22:53:43 <ehird> i want to overclock a c64 to 5mhz
22:53:47 <ehird> and put a fan on it
22:54:05 <nooga> ehird: i rendered this graph again with coloring specific nodes placed in groups and printed it
22:54:05 <pikhq> You could daisy-chain those floppy drives.
22:54:08 <ehird> call it the C-64 elite
22:54:11 <pikhq> "8 processors! Oh yeah!"
22:54:18 <nooga> now it occupies the wall in my office
22:54:22 <ehird> pikhq: Overclock the floppy drive.
22:54:33 <AnMaster> list:reverse(List) makes sense. But why list:reverse(List,Tail)
22:54:37 <ehird> SUPERCOMPUTER CLUSTER
22:54:41 <AnMaster> where it appends the non-reversed Tail
22:54:43 <pikhq> "I overclocked everything. *Everything*."
22:54:48 <ehird> AnMaster: efficient list operation
22:54:50 <nooga> oh, i've seen something rly cool
22:54:59 <fizzie> I printed a couple of A4-sized copies of The Fungot Graph; I don't think I remembered to try the A3 (i.e. readable) version.
22:54:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I ended up using it.
22:55:01 <pikhq> Sadly, I suspect you can't overclock the main C64 chip all that well.
22:55:05 <ehird> pikhq: what about the tape drive
22:55:15 <ehird> have an extension that PRESSes PLAY ON TAPE automatically
22:55:16 <AnMaster> I just couldn't figure out why 1) that name 2) anyone else would need it
22:55:18 <pikhq> Its clock speed is a function of the display speed.
22:55:36 <pikhq> The floppy drive, though...
22:55:37 <AnMaster> it seems rather kind of uncommon
22:55:47 <pikhq> I don't think the CPU has anything to do with the serial bus speed. ;)
22:56:27 <ehird> pikhq: overclock the floppy so it needs a fan
22:56:29 <fizzie> nooga: Since you like graphs, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png -- you can remove the word "small" if you want the 7485x15016-pixel version.
22:56:29 <fungot> fizzie: aerith just blurted that out all the way.
22:56:30 <ehird> and have a cluster of 8
22:56:34 <ehird> it'll be about as loud as an old pc
22:56:40 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmfHHLfbjNQ << this is just fucking awesome !!!!!!!!11111111
22:56:54 <ehird> oh yeah that thing
22:57:05 <ehird> (so's the original song)
22:57:33 <nooga> fizzie: dow did you manage to make it so tidy?
22:57:40 <pikhq> ehird: Oooh. You could hook two C64s to a single floppy drive.
22:58:03 <pikhq> Not just a 8-core NUMA system...
22:58:09 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: :-D
22:58:14 <pikhq> A Beowulf cluster.
22:58:17 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: how many bogomips is it?
22:58:24 <ehird> pikhq: we so have to do this
22:58:39 <fizzie> bsmntbombgirl: The "fungotsmall" version is just 1497x3003.
22:58:42 <pikhq> ehird: Get a webserver on this baby.
22:58:56 <ehird> pikhq: shit, you could distribute a contiki instance across it
22:59:01 <fizzie> There was some tweaking of graphviz parameters involved; don't remember them at all.
22:59:10 <pikhq> High-performance Contiki.
22:59:30 <nooga> bass by scanner is orgasmic :D
22:59:57 <ehird> nooga: if you like that stuff then
22:59:59 <ehird> http://www.treewave.com/
23:00:13 <fizzie> The C128 has a 6502-like CPU too, and it's officially "overclockable" (if you can call it that) 1 -> 2 MHz, if you don't mind the fact that the video chip can't live at that speed. (But you can use the C128-specific video chip which can do a 80x25 text mode, if you have a suitable digital-interface monitor.)
23:00:24 <ehird> they use c64s, atari 2600s, compaq portable iis, epson lq500 dotmatrixs
23:00:43 <ehird> paul slocum is pretty cool
23:02:23 <fizzie> And speaking of SMP, the C128 *also* has a 2 MHz Z80 processor (for CP/M mode)... though for hardwarey reasons you can't run the 8502 (6510 + the 2 MHz mode) and the Z80 simultaneously.
23:02:34 <ehird> fizzie: hack it so it can!
23:02:57 <fizzie> Still, not many dual-processor machines have dual processors of completely different architecture. (Though the DS with ARM9+ARM7 is not that far off, and at least those can run simultaneously.)
23:02:58 <pikhq> ehird: Probably each CPU has full control over the memory.
23:03:01 <ehird> By paul slocum, a c64 synthy thingy: http://qotile.net/cynthcart.html
23:03:20 <pikhq> fizzie: The Wii has two processors.
23:03:30 <pikhq> One is a PowerPC, for running the game code.
23:03:36 <pikhq> One is an ARM, for running the DRM code.
23:03:43 <pikhq> Yes, it has a second processor for DRM.
23:03:54 <ehird> http://qotile.net/files/cynth1_2_4.prg It's very small for a synthesizer.
23:04:01 <fizzie> "A possibly unique feature of the C128 among CP/M systems was that some of the low-level BIOS services were executed by the 8502 chip instead of the Z80. The latter transferred control to the 8502 after having placed the pertinent parameter values in designated memory locations. The Z80 then turned itself off, being awoken by the 8502 at completion of the BIOS routine, with status value(s) available in RAM for inspection." Heh, freaky.
23:04:11 <pikhq> Also, there's the Gameboy Advance.
23:04:23 <pikhq> A Z80 and an ARM7.
23:04:26 <pikhq> (don't run simultaneously)
23:04:32 <fizzie> Right, for GB compatibility.
23:04:41 <pikhq> And the Playstation 2.
23:04:46 <pikhq> God, the Playstation 2.
23:05:09 <fizzie> Too bad they dropped GB compatibility from the DS; it would've had ARM9+ARM7+Z80 then.
23:06:22 <pikhq> The PS2 featured a 32bit and 64bit MIPS.
23:06:28 <pikhq> In PS2 mode, both ran simultaneously.
23:07:34 <fizzie> Consoles tend to be rather... idiosyncratic, re hardware.
23:07:38 <pikhq> I seem to recall it having another processor shoved in there, though.
23:07:56 <pikhq> fizzie: With the exception of the Xbox.
23:08:09 <pikhq> Erm. Never mind; the Xbox was quite idiosyncratic.
23:08:20 <pikhq> Because of it's Wintel legacy. XD
23:09:07 <ehird> pikhq: The Xbox 360 uses a powerpc (seriously)
23:09:12 <ehird> Three cores, too. That's quite odd.
23:09:16 <ehird> And a high-for-a-console 3.2ghz speed.
23:10:01 <ehird> Also, not much memory.
23:10:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, We need an irc bot for esotope. To see how much it optimises :P
23:11:05 <pikhq> ehird: The Xbox 360 uses a Cell PPU. Even weirder. ;)
23:11:34 <ehird> Y'know, I bet one day GPUs will change their name. We'll have sequential processing units and concurrent processing units.
23:11:42 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: sorry, the next exams are ahead; i will be away for a while.
23:12:01 <lifthrasiir> (indeed the next one is after 7.5 hours! :S)
23:13:02 <ehird> lol, the 8086 had 5x the mhz of the ntsc c64
23:13:08 <ehird> several years earlier
23:13:11 <ehird> more expensive ofc
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23:18:27 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: has it exploded yet?
23:18:52 <chromakode> GregorR: what can you tell me about bsmntbombgirl
23:18:54 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: aiee, you've got hyperthreading enabled?
23:19:01 <ehird> chromakode: Er... what's going on?
23:19:07 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: that thing plays hell with the cache i hear
23:19:27 <chromakode> ehird: hehe, just trying to tell if he's full of shit in #askreddit or not :)
23:19:37 <ehird> chromakode: oh, what's he saying
23:19:43 <chromakode> I'm good IRL friends with GregorR so I thought I'd make a query
23:20:01 <ehird> oh, you know GregorR? I just recognized your name from reddit.
23:20:14 <pikhq> Oh, we've got an IRL friend of Gregor? Interesting.
23:20:45 <pikhq> Come out, thy hattedness!
23:21:09 <fizzie> I have this single-core Atom 230 thing, and the interwebs refused to tell me whether it's a good idea or not to turn HyperThreading on on it; in the end decided not to, since it probably won't really be doing more than one thing at a time anyway.
23:21:50 <pikhq> fizzie: For the Atom, you'll probably benefit.
23:21:56 <fizzie> (Incidentally, since it's called "Core i7", it really should have 7 cores.)
23:21:56 <pikhq> Poor pipelining and all that.
23:22:08 <ehird> fizzie: Just like the Core 2 only comes in dual-core versions.
23:22:52 <fizzie> At least they add the "quad" in there even in the marketed names; I haven't seen i7 things referred to except by mysterious numbers.
23:23:03 <chromakode> I have seen at least 50% of Gregor's hats in real life.
23:23:09 <chromakode> including the badass one with the tassel.
23:23:15 <ehird> chromakode: Can I have your autograph?
23:23:24 <pikhq> Intel decided that the mysterious numbers were "more meaningful".
23:23:38 <ehird> fizzie: All i7s are quad-core.
23:23:50 <pikhq> chromakode: We've seen www.choosemyhat.com . ;)
23:23:54 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, but there is no sense of four-ness in the name.
23:24:04 <pikhq> ehird: Dual-core and oct-core versions have yet to ship.
23:24:08 <ehird> fizzie: It has two letters, which is half of four.
23:24:15 <ehird> pikhq: I'm pretty sure they've yet to be announced
23:24:37 <fizzie> I don't even have a GCC with "-mtune=atom" capabilities; I guess those are not going to be in the 4.3 series. :/
23:24:58 <ehird> is there an -mtune=i7, I wonder?
23:25:10 <ehird> could do something w/ the puny l2
23:25:22 <ehird> chromakode: do you even know what this channel is about? about half of our visitors don't
23:25:46 <Gracenotes> hm. has anyone ever taken 5 classes a day during a semester?
23:25:48 <ehird> you belong to the other 0.5%, clearly.
23:25:58 <ehird> or, rather, flip it.
23:26:25 <pikhq> Gracenotes: I've known someone who did.
23:26:39 <pikhq> He was on the Uberman sleep schedule for most of it, too.
23:26:48 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl did uberman!
23:26:49 <Gracenotes> I'd be in class for a total of 7 hours on monday. largely split up.
23:26:50 <ehird> i am not a stalker.
23:26:54 * pikhq had a crazy roommate.
23:27:09 * pikhq will have said roommate again next semester. :)
23:27:16 <Gracenotes> but in that case I've have a max of 3 hours on all other days
23:27:20 <ehird> I wonder what "drop lack of tea" does in the HHGTTG game.
23:28:41 <ehird> pikhq: "Your common sense tells you that you can't do that."
23:28:47 <ehird> Common sense? Is this the hitchhiker's guide I know?
23:29:22 <pikhq> Give it a break, man. Arthur Dent has to hold onto *something*.
23:29:40 <pikhq> Aside from the clothes on his back, I mean.
23:30:00 <ehird> he only has clothes on his back?
23:36:13 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: it'll be faster to disable hyperthreading in most cases
23:36:42 <pikhq> Oh, right. The Atom was based on the Pentium *3*.
23:36:53 <pikhq> Which had good pipelining.
23:37:12 <pikhq> Yeah, hyperthreading on the Atom is just pointless.
23:40:00 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: ask pikhq; he found some shit about hyperthreading
23:40:06 <ehird> basically: your cache will pay, iirc
23:40:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombgirl: Hyperthreading is a hack to get around bad pipelining.
23:40:14 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: also, there's some security issues
23:40:21 <pikhq> And it has, as a side effect, a terrible impact on your cache.
23:40:35 <ehird> see for instance http://www.daemonology.net/hyperthreading-considered-harmful/
23:40:37 <pikhq> On the Pentium 4, it was beneficial.
23:40:56 <pikhq> (the Pentium 4 had gobs of cache and some of the worst pipelining out there)
23:41:07 <ehird> the i7 only has 256K of l2 cache
23:41:15 <pikhq> On anything else, and I mean anything else, it just creates cache misses.
23:41:15 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: uh?
23:41:33 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: the L2 cache on the i7 isn't shared
23:41:35 <ehird> (the L3 is though)
23:41:39 <ehird> anyway, the other arguments sitll apply
23:42:30 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: loads of cache misses, not an appreciable performance benefit (are you really using 8 threads? does it outweigh the disadvantages?), and it's a hack to get around bad pipelining
23:42:39 <ehird> (Pronounced "kwed.")
23:43:25 <pikhq> Pentium 4s tended to have at least 1M of L2 cache...
23:43:50 <pikhq> There were some with 2M.
23:44:16 <pikhq> The cache misses on an Atom will just be painful.
23:45:40 <pikhq> ... Holy fuck, Atom chips are overpriced.
23:46:07 <ehird> err? they're for budget netbooks
23:46:29 <pikhq> ehird: AMD sells dual-core Phenoms at similar price points.
23:46:45 <ehird> I can't buy a dual core Phenom for the cost of a cheap Atom box.
23:46:46 <pikhq> Actually, the cheapest one is reasonable.
23:46:57 <ehird> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91
23:47:13 <ehird> cpu only takes 8 watts, amazingly
23:47:29 <pikhq> I've got a triple-core Phenom almost completely specced for $200. Short a hard drive.
23:47:53 <pikhq> Oh, and an optical drive. :/
23:48:08 <ehird> pikhq: that one has no optical drive too :P
23:48:18 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: how goes your system
23:48:31 <ehird> pikhq: but it isn't prebuilt
23:48:33 <ehird> prebuilts always cost more
23:49:04 <pikhq> Lemme see what I could get an 80G HD for.
23:49:29 <ehird> I configured a complete dual-core system for a little over $200. It wasn't good, but for most people it'd do just fine.
23:49:37 <ehird> Apart from the having to build it thing
23:50:11 <ehird> Athlon X2 4050e @ 2.1ghz, 2GB of RAM, 160GB harddrive.
23:50:38 <ehird> seriously; the cpu's just $39.99
23:50:49 <pikhq> $33 for an 80G drive. Whoo.
23:50:57 <ehird> whole thing comes to $222.41
23:51:16 <pikhq> Moral of the story: prebuilts cost more.
23:51:16 <ehird> inc. a 52x cd burner, floppy drive, case and 380w power supply
23:51:47 <ehird> i7 systems cost a lot due to the DDR3 requirement
23:52:07 <pikhq> True, DDR3 is pricy.
23:52:17 <ehird> Pricy and also delicious.
23:53:51 * pikhq feels sorry for ehird's stomach
23:54:03 <ehird> I am a silicon-based lifeform.
23:54:29 <ehird> "Putting the pro back in power" —OCZ marketing
23:54:45 * pikhq feels sorry for ehird, then.
23:54:54 <pikhq> Your grocery shopping must be pricy as hell.
23:54:55 <ehird> pikhq: What's wrong with silicon :<
23:55:06 <ehird> pikhq: No kidding; I'm watercooled.
23:55:11 <ehird> That's why I still drink human fluids.
23:55:17 <ehird> They transfer heat well.
23:55:38 * pikhq runs away from the Si-based vampire
23:55:52 <ehird> ... wait, you point that out and then just think *blood*?
23:56:17 <pikhq> Blood is one of the more prevalent human fluids.
23:56:43 <pikhq> Of course, you could mean piss, instead.
23:56:53 <Gracenotes> my blood is very nutritious! It has iron!
23:57:13 <ehird> pikhq: No. That did not even cross my mind. :-P
23:57:21 <ehird> Gracenotes: could you extract just the iron please
23:57:24 <pikhq> Gracenotes: My caffeine stream is very nutritious! It has trace nutrients such as blood!
23:57:53 <Gracenotes> although, you know what they say about hormones in food nowadays. I'm betting that my blood is crawling with all sorts of hormones
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00:00:47 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: btw, you might wanna memtest sometime
00:00:54 <ehird> since 12gb is a loooot
00:01:19 * pikhq memtests whenever he obtains a new motherboard, CPU, or RAM...
00:01:34 <ehird> pikhq: I would memtest, but it takes houuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurs.
00:01:59 <ehird> Sure, I probably will sometime with the new box.
00:02:11 <ehird> All my other computers just aren't quiet enough to leave on overnight though ;-)
00:02:16 <ehird> Yes, even this one. I have bat ears.
00:02:36 <pikhq> It's been worth the effort in the past.
00:02:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I have separate bedroom :D
00:02:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Unfortunately, cramped architecture dictates.
00:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, or leave it on over-day and read a book / go outside?
00:03:11 <ehird> What is this "book"?
00:03:13 <pikhq> (my current motherboard has a *memory slot* that causes errors)
00:03:22 <ehird> How can you be out of a side?
00:03:26 <ehird> That makes no sense.
00:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, You know what a kindle is right?
00:03:57 <ehird> Ooh! Something to do with a fire? ...In the amazon?
00:04:14 <ehird> to kindle (third-person singular simple present kindles, present participle kindling, simple past and past participle kindled)
00:04:14 <ehird> (transitive) To start (a fire) or light (a torch).
00:04:16 <ehird> Please kindle a fire in the barbecue.
00:04:20 <ehird> kindle (plural kindles)
00:04:22 <ehird> (obsolete) A collective term for a group of kittens.
00:04:24 <ehird> A kindle of kittens.
00:04:26 <pikhq> That's not a Big Blue Room thing. ;)
00:04:28 <ehird> I know what kittens are.
00:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well what about wikipedia. You know what it is? Now imagine it printed on paper.
00:04:57 <pikhq> Out of a side, though.
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00:05:08 <ehird> AnMaster: ...Why would I kill trees?
00:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, paper being thin sheets made of dead wood
00:05:54 * pikhq wonders what ehird's house is made of
00:06:13 <ehird> My house is made of digital.
00:06:23 <pikhq> That thing that keeps you seperated from the daystar?
00:07:09 <pikhq> ehird: Is there a door that you don't use very often?
00:07:28 <ehird> Yes! Inside there is the thing that blinds you. I do not go there!
00:07:29 <pikhq> If so, open it. You should see the Big Blue Room.
00:07:45 <pikhq> Larger than the Internet.
00:07:46 <ehird> Let me go and look...
00:07:59 <pikhq> Also, the day star is the thing that blinds you.
00:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, the thing that blinds you is called the "sun" or "day star". The former being a more common name.
00:08:11 <ehird> pikhq: I looked at it but there was no light in there so I couldn't see and when I put my hand in to find a lightswitch it was cold.
00:08:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is midnight in UK now I think
00:08:25 <ehird> It must not be very well maintained!
00:08:25 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, it's not day.
00:08:28 <pikhq> You won't see the daystar, then.
00:08:48 <ehird> This sounds like one of those fairytails. You know, Santa, Tooth Fairy, Allah, Day star...
00:08:52 <pikhq> You will see the nightstars.
00:09:05 <ehird> Pull the other one!
00:09:17 <pikhq> They don't blind you.
00:09:30 <ehird> They don't light anything either...
00:09:37 <ehird> What's so special about this room anyway?
00:09:41 <pikhq> They are not very bright.
00:09:48 <pikhq> It's the original room.
00:10:04 <pikhq> All the other rooms were made by putting walls up in it.
00:10:10 <AnMaster> that is because the day star is closer.
00:10:36 <ehird> And on the seventh day, the daystar put up some walls. Tee hee.
00:11:04 <pikhq> Because the Big Blue Room is kinda crappy.
00:11:06 <ehird> Where did they get the walls from? Walls come from big buildings with walls in them.
00:11:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and how do you think those are made
00:11:23 <pikhq> ehird: They made buildings.
00:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Quantum fluctuations!
00:11:39 <pikhq> The roof leaks, the heater is broken, and the air conditioning hates you.
00:11:55 <pikhq> Oh, and sometimes very large rocks fall in.
00:12:09 <ehird> What kind of architect designed that bullcrap?!
00:12:18 <pikhq> It wasn't designed.
00:12:27 <pikhq> (unless you believe some Christians)
00:12:33 <ehird> pikhq: Hah, what are you gonna say?
00:12:36 <ehird> A big ball of rock was flying along
00:12:40 <ehird> and just turned into the big blue room?
00:12:44 <ehird> This gets more ridiculous by the minute.
00:12:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the whole existence was a freak accident.
00:13:07 -!- nooga_ has joined.
00:13:08 <AnMaster> existence of everything that is
00:13:57 <ehird> pikhq: about these rocks falling.
00:13:59 <ehird> Does everybody dies?
00:14:17 <ehird> If rocks fall, everybody dies.
00:14:39 <AnMaster> ehird, Most of the time the damage is localised. Only affects a small area.
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00:14:58 <pikhq> And the Room is very, very large.
00:15:30 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you measure
00:15:37 <ehird> You're all lunatics
00:15:40 <ehird> Like scientologists
00:15:45 <ehird> Bigblueroomologists
00:16:02 <pikhq> Approximately 510 gigameters.
00:16:15 <pikhq> 148 gigameters of which is not water.
00:16:26 <ehird> Wait, it has water too?
00:16:29 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:16:29 <pikhq> Square gigameters, I mean.
00:16:30 <ehird> Like, instead of floor?
00:16:37 <pikhq> In some places, yes.
00:16:52 <pikhq> About 70% of its surface area, in fact.
00:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um. Not exactly. Ever seen a bathtub that was lowered to the floow level?
00:17:03 <ehird> ok, well as you can see i have a q6600 with a whole 65 nanometers, and its awesome. So my friend gets an e7400 and they totally rip him off. Instead of giving him 65 nanometers or more, they only give him 45, like WTH!!
00:17:03 <pikhq> Want to see a picture of about half of it?
00:17:04 <ehird> So nedless to say i am pretty mad as intel is jipping my friend of his nanometers, so now his cpu will not be as good as my q6600, which is bad. Intel used to give people like a whole 130 nanometers but lately they are being very stingy and are not giving us their nanometers so our cpu's are not as good. Please help me boycott intel so they stop stealing our nanometers
00:17:23 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/The_Earth_seen_from_Apollo_17.jpg
00:17:40 <ehird> pikhq: Oh come on, obviously photoshopped; look at the smooth edges and the black background
00:17:46 <ehird> Also, that white shit.
00:17:50 <ehird> What the FUCK is that meant to be?
00:17:53 <fizzie> Yeah, the reflections are all wrong.
00:18:00 <ehird> The cloud is the internet, noobcaek.
00:18:07 <ehird> Everyone knows that.
00:18:08 <pikhq> And that's the Earth.
00:18:16 <ehird> Earth. Sounds like "Xenu".
00:18:49 <ehird> Yeah, theology always does when you poke at the obvious flaws.
00:18:54 <pikhq> The Big Blue Room, the Earth, is a planet.
00:19:08 <ehird> AnMaster: That's sci-fi. L Ron Hubbard was a sci-fi writer too and he founded scientology
00:19:09 <AnMaster> ehird, think "like that, without the aliens (as far as we know)"
00:19:09 <pikhq> It is a very, very large rock with things on it.
00:19:11 <ehird> coincidence? i think not
00:19:23 <ehird> pikhq: I was joking about the flying rock, goddamn!
00:19:25 <pikhq> It is in orbit around the "Sun", the daystar.
00:19:26 <ehird> You're all bananas!
00:19:31 <ehird> fizzie: you don't believe this crap do you?
00:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, where do you think they got the idea to space invaders‽
00:19:38 <pikhq> This is a gigantic mass of burning hydrogen.
00:19:43 <ehird> AnMaster: star trek!
00:19:55 <AnMaster> ehird, and where did they get the idea for star trek
00:20:00 <ehird> pikhq: You're a dipshit. Hydrogen is a gas.
00:20:00 <pikhq> ehird: The evidence suggests that this is true.
00:20:08 <ehird> pikhq: How come it isn't flying everywhere?
00:20:15 <ehird> AnMaster: The creators's mind?
00:20:20 <ehird> pikhq: Gravity makes things go down.
00:20:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you think they could make up something that stupid?
00:20:43 <pikhq> No, it makes things be attracted to other mass.
00:20:51 <pikhq> Which tends to form a sphere.
00:20:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Einstein said that only two things are infinite:
00:21:00 <AnMaster> Actually, Gravity is uncomputable.
00:21:05 <ehird> the universe and human stupidity, and that he wasn't sure about the former.
00:21:06 <AnMaster> Would have been the right answer.
00:21:09 <ehird> I don't know what he means by "universe", but...
00:21:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the universe is the same as this space!
00:21:31 <ehird> Oh, don't drag Einstein into your religion.
00:21:51 <pikhq> He described pretty well how gravity works.
00:21:56 <pikhq> By bending spacetime.
00:22:03 <ehird> That was *fiction*.
00:22:09 <ehird> C'mon, "spacetime"? right out of star trek.
00:22:16 <pikhq> Ah, but we've observed it.
00:22:25 <ehird> You kooky cultists, maybe.
00:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, we believe in science!
00:23:00 <ehird> 'sthat the name of your religion?
00:23:04 <pikhq> Experiments with the space shuttle, among other things.
00:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, Einstein style science.
00:23:33 <ehird> pikhq: "space shuttle"?
00:23:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you missed out on that?
00:23:47 <pikhq> It goes into orbit around the sun.
00:23:53 <pikhq> *Earth*, not the sun.
00:24:01 <ehird> You can't even keep your facts straight, I see.
00:24:03 <AnMaster> yeah, the Earth is in the orbit around the Sun
00:24:12 <AnMaster> so in fact it also orbits the sun
00:24:13 <pikhq> That, among other things, is how we have pictures of the Earth.
00:24:19 <AnMaster> because it orbits the orbiting Earth
00:24:42 <AnMaster> actually yes it is modified. The image was turned upside down. That was all.
00:25:18 <pikhq> Sorry, that specific picture was from 1972.
00:25:27 <pikhq> Before UNIX, still.
00:26:49 <AnMaster> not before epoch though. Though epoch was before UNIX.
00:28:04 <coppro> time started in 1970 :P
00:28:35 <pikhq> coppro: my music collection disagrees.
00:28:49 * pikhq listens to the Beatles
00:29:33 <pikhq> ehird: Go to the Big Blue Room sometime during the day.
00:29:42 <coppro> At 0, the world was created with an artificial history, obviously
00:29:57 <pikhq> Observe the existence of things like "the Sun".
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00:30:02 <pikhq> Then do the same at night.
00:30:08 <pikhq> Observe the plentiful stars and the moon.
00:30:18 <pikhq> Come back and we'll talk again. ;)
00:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, space shuttle mounted on launch platform: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0905/shuttlepredawn_danforth_big.jpg The Space Shuttle is the white thing with the half-hidden text "NASA" and "Atlantis" (the name of this specific shuttle, no idea why the named it that) on it.
00:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Nice render. POV-Ray?
00:31:19 <ehird> Might be a film studio
00:31:21 <ehird> But probably a render
00:31:21 <pikhq> You can also fly to Cape Canaveral and see it for yourself.
00:31:23 <ehird> It's all too perfect.
00:31:31 <ehird> You believe your adherents can FLY?!
00:31:52 <pikhq> Not without help. We have machines that fly.
00:31:56 <pikhq> We sit inside them.
00:32:17 <AnMaster> works by using wings to produce lift.
00:32:25 <pikhq> It's a very good way of moving about in the Big Blue Room, since it's very, very large...
00:32:46 <pikhq> And even going 200mph, it takes hours to get places.
00:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird, and the room is so large you CAN'T see it is a room-
00:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird where do you think I am?
00:36:59 <AnMaster> ehird, try going out the door you don't use a lot tomorrow
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00:37:41 <AnMaster> ehird, because you missing something that is way better than inside.
00:37:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it may take a while to adjust to the light level
00:38:03 <ehird> pikhq: is AnMaster part of a weird sect of your cult?
00:38:08 <ehird> that _likes_ the B.B.R.?
00:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, also don't your house have windows? Holes in the walls. With glass in them
00:38:26 <pikhq> ehird: There are pleasant things in the B.B.R.
00:38:28 <ehird> Sure; they display generated sci-fi scenery.
00:38:31 <pikhq> Such as other people.
00:38:38 <pikhq> And they don't generate anything.
00:38:43 <pikhq> They are just transparent.
00:39:07 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what you will reach when you go through that door.
00:39:15 <pikhq> Look out the window, then go out the door.
00:39:21 <pikhq> Should be the same thing.
00:39:42 <AnMaster> well, you might have to go around the house to reach the right window of course
00:39:50 <AnMaster> if the door is in the opposite end
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01:22:39 <nooga_> my #define maping tool is awesome
01:23:04 <nooga_> added 'perspective' and various types of nodes
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04:54:34 <Sgeo> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PizzaTheorem.html
05:03:14 <Sgeo> http://kylegabler.com/WorldOfGooSoundtrack/
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06:06:17 <asiekierka> ok, finally finished my putc routine for chars 00-7F
06:06:40 <asiekierka> so this means I can finally move to other things
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06:28:52 <asiekierka> I just hope it's not C64-DTV running CELF
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12:34:34 <AnMaster> hi ais523 (no response first time around, was just before the timeout)
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13:01:32 <asiekierka> Codename CELF progress: putc and puts are completely finished! woo-hoo!
13:05:41 <asiekierka> Well, for PUTC, the only thing I am required to do is to do TAB (#09)
13:16:06 <nooga> asiekierka sounds polish :D
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13:32:48 <nooga> to fajnie, ja tez :P
13:34:03 <nooga> better to go prv ;p
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14:17:35 <oerjan> i'll have a guinness, please
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14:28:27 <nooga> free space on my HD shrinks constantly
14:28:51 <nooga> but TimeMachine is disabled
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15:12:59 <nooga> Ļ∑óę󮳹…ą„żźłźźĶ∑󙼀–™Ľ€•
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16:01:28 <ehird> 13:28 nooga: free space on my HD shrinks constantly
16:01:29 <ehird> 13:28 nooga: but TimeMachine is disabled
16:01:32 <ehird> timemachine doesn't back up to your hd
16:01:43 <nooga> then what it does?
16:02:07 <ehird> nooga: backs up to an external Time Capsule drive.
16:02:17 <nooga> there is no such drive
16:02:25 <ehird> i'm telling you what it dose.
16:02:36 <nooga> so my free space shrinks without any reason
16:02:46 <ehird> it shrinks for a different reason
16:03:00 <nooga> yesterday i've had 88GB free, now i have 86GB
16:03:11 <ehird> swap space, temporary files.
16:03:14 <nooga> and i don't remember downloading/creating something 2GB big
16:03:28 <ehird> the OS will manage them itself
16:07:41 <ehird> nooga: don't worry, be happy
16:09:15 <ehird> Google is lagging...
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16:19:16 <ehird> oerjan: is that a joke :p
16:19:54 <oerjan> no, i just wanted to google something
16:20:19 <ehird> my poor gmail, too
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16:21:41 <ehird> inurinternet: who are you? :p
16:22:10 <ais523> heh, if that realname is correct, that's quite a good nickname pun
16:22:18 <ehird> heh, I just looked it up
16:25:04 <ehird> it seems to be very sporadic
16:26:31 <oerjan> it's currently refusing to load here
16:26:44 <ehird> it indefinitely loads and sometimes finishes for me
16:26:53 <oerjan> the norwegian version, naturally, i don't know how much that matters
16:27:50 <oerjan> although i did get in a couple searches
16:27:53 <AnMaster> !bf_txtgen Test for optimiser.
16:27:55 <EgoBot> 164 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++>+++<<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++.>+++.+.>++++.<<+.>-----.+++.>.<---.+.++++.<+++.++++.----.>-.<----.>-.>>++++.<----------------------. [329]
16:27:59 <ehird> nooga: stop sweating over it
16:28:09 <ehird> the OS can manage some temp ;-)
16:28:09 <nooga> something eatc my drive!
16:28:31 <ehird> if it keeps going down just rm -rf /tmp/* and reboot or something
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16:28:55 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
16:29:35 * ehird arrests oerjan for child abuse (unless FireFly is an adult, in which case disregard this)
16:29:46 <ehird> FireFly: stockholm syndrome!
16:29:57 * oerjan swats ehird in a lurid way -----###
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16:30:43 <FireFly> "The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg in Stockholm"
16:31:00 <ehird> you swedes still have google don't you
16:31:15 <oerjan> robbery? i thought it was a terrorist attack...
16:31:17 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
16:31:29 <ehird> Need...google...juice
16:31:35 <FireFly> I don't like the combo of swedish and english :\
16:31:55 <oerjan> darn, switching to google.se doesn't help me...
16:32:01 <ehird> oerjan: it's ze routing
16:32:06 <ehird> FireFly: swedish sounds like joke english
16:32:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer).
16:32:17 <ehird> It's the bank-en of [kc]redit!
16:33:26 * oerjan crosses his fingers for the space observatory
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16:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, still issues with google in UK?
16:38:56 <ehird> everywhere but sweden, it seems.
16:40:43 <AnMaster> ehird, UK + Norway != Everywhere :P
16:41:03 <ehird> yes, but i'm pretty sure it's not two isolated cases
16:41:07 <ehird> so probably a portion of europe
16:41:12 <ehird> and maybe elsewhere
16:42:58 <ehird> what, again again?
16:43:21 * ehird looks up a project to see if that changedt oo
16:44:01 <ehird> the death throws of an obsolete service
16:44:13 <ehird> <ballmer> redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners redesigners
16:46:07 <AnMaster> obsolete? Shitty yes, but not obsolete. Since lots of projects still use sf.net... Then "obsolete" must mean that you consider the concept of such sites outdated?
16:46:34 <ehird> sf.net itself had its time...
16:46:41 <ehird> but I don't think its model is useful
16:46:48 <ehird> some of its services, certainly
16:47:01 <ehird> regardless of the model, there's no question its popularity for new projects is dwindling...
16:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that is because of the constant redesigns IMO :P
16:48:38 <ehird> oh, it happened before the design
16:48:42 <AnMaster> well, at least it is probably part of the reason.
16:48:48 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:48:56 <ehird> AnMaster: the first major one in ever
16:49:04 <ehird> from the gigantic sidebars, orange-ball logo etc
16:49:05 <AnMaster> ais523_, and have you noticed sf.net resigned again?
16:49:08 <ehird> to the web 2.0y one
16:49:14 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, I never visit it
16:49:17 <ais523_> at least, not deliberately
16:49:28 <ais523_> it's not that I'm avoiding it
16:49:34 <ais523_> just that I have no reason to go there
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16:49:50 <AnMaster> indeed. Only reason I had to go there today was to comment on a bug report.
16:50:16 <ehird> urgh, sf's issue tracker system
16:50:19 <ehird> it's almost as bad as their forums
16:51:08 <ehird> you just reminded me of it:)
16:51:28 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, the issue tracker used to be worse.
16:51:38 <AnMaster> they made it slightly less bad recently
16:51:42 <ehird> yes, but it's still awful
16:51:46 <ehird> and the forums have always been that bad
16:52:20 <ehird> AnMaster: for projects, yep
16:52:24 <ehird> some even use them
16:52:32 <ehird> go to a project page, find the forums
16:52:37 <ehird> they're truly awful
16:52:42 <nooga> oerjan: how to say "don't run away" in norwegian? ;d
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17:34:42 <ehird> wow, sun will sell you Unix-style keyboards
17:35:52 <ehird> http://www.sun.com/desktop/products/peripherals/keyboard/
17:37:17 <Gracenotes> okay, the first comment here is a bit odd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibZaxgnBsaU
17:37:41 <ehird> 'Tis music to his genitals indeed.
17:38:03 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/user/bubukaka5
17:38:06 <ehird> He is indeed an odd one.
17:38:10 <ehird> 3219joejonas (1 week ago)
17:38:10 <ehird> look I'm only going to say this.................. when you get sick and your in a hospital dieing REMEMBER WHAT you said and then think again!!!!
17:38:13 <ehird> And Just Maybe You get out OK! But As long as you wannabe Canadian self don't stop acting like a jerk. aren't go to get no respect.....Just bcuz ur from Canada don't mean anything...wow Ur Canadian
17:38:16 <ehird> so Wat , but there r going to be Black,White Or even Mexicans(wat ever u called them they are people like u and me) trying to save Ur life,working they butts off for you and all you can do is talk about crap.
17:38:44 <Gracenotes> PEDRO USADO CONDOM QUANDO ENCULO PORCINA POR FAVOR !
17:39:02 <Gracenotes> and... wtf about the Alicia Keys comment
17:44:20 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttW3gJ7Uun0 no o o
17:44:56 <ehird> wow that song is crap
17:45:18 <nooga> it looped on some itunes radio
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18:16:19 <ehird> i wonder how long till 160GB X25-M prices go down
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18:19:00 <AnMaster> is it in theory safe to move a known constant output across a seek in bf? that is: other code here [>] [-]+++, which turns into "seek, set 3, output(3)" which is then sorted to "seek, output(3), set 3"
18:19:11 <AnMaster> potentially I guess it isn't safe
18:19:16 <ehird> AnMaster: how is that not safe
18:19:18 <ehird> of course it's safe
18:19:24 <AnMaster> ehird, if the seek never hits any set cell
18:19:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you handle that in the seek part
18:19:51 <ehird> AnMaster: if the seek never finds a cell, it runs forever
18:19:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I might not know if it will hit any set cell yet at compile time
18:19:55 <ehird> so the other instructions aren't executed
18:19:58 <ehird> and thus don't execute
18:20:12 <ehird> "seek, set 3, output(3)" which is then sorted to "seek, output(3), set 3"
18:20:17 <ehird> that sorting is perfectly fine
18:20:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but my question was, is it then safe to move the output across the seek
18:22:29 <ehird> AnMaster: how are you optimizing [>>]
18:22:48 <ehird> that's the best you can do, really
18:23:01 <AnMaster> ehird, into a seek node. How that is output depends on the backend.
18:23:14 <ehird> "For as long as I can recall, ATI/AMD video cards have typically had decent support in Linux"
18:23:19 <ehird> Linux users can't agree on ANYTHING :-)
18:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, currently the C backend translates it to while(*p) p+=stride;
18:23:42 <AnMaster> but could be changed into a for loop
18:23:52 <ehird> AnMaster: same code
18:23:59 <AnMaster> I really haven't spent much time on making the backend itself output the best possible code yet.
18:24:13 <AnMaster> anyway I'm trying to figure out optimal sorting.
18:24:24 <ehird> a thing i have learned over the past few days: the 2D/3D hardware acceleration stack for Xorg is a bloody mess
18:24:24 <AnMaster> the shifter code is getting messy with special cases.
18:24:32 <AnMaster> so I'm making a loop up table with conditions
18:24:37 <ehird> AnMaster: you just need to code one thing:
18:24:49 <ehird> AnMaster: "things that may or may not terminate are sort blockers"
18:24:54 <ehird> asiekierka: google is being the laggy
18:25:07 <AnMaster> ehird, um no, you can't move an out across an out for example. but you can move an add (which changes a different cell) across an out
18:25:09 <asiekierka> google loads for me, youtube does not load
18:25:22 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, alternative definition:
18:25:33 <ehird> AnMaster: my rule still works
18:25:36 <ehird> just specialcase output too
18:25:44 <ehird> but "things that may or may not terminate are sort blockers" + side effect handling
18:25:48 <ehird> catches everything
18:26:13 <AnMaster> ehird, and I move {out. offset = 2, constant_to_add = 0}, {add, offset = 2, value = -2} across so you have: {add, offset = 2, value = -2} {out. offset = 2, constant_to_add = 2}
18:26:24 <AnMaster> this is because often you can merge those add
18:26:31 <EgoBot> 47 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.>-. [206]
18:26:39 <AnMaster> like that. You can merge those adds
18:26:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so there are lots of special handling cases needed.
18:27:16 <AnMaster> and you can move set across add only if it has a different offset.
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18:27:29 <AnMaster> (the combiner pass will merge them if they have same)
18:28:03 <AnMaster> (either, add, set into a set, since the add is a dead store; or for set, add change to the value to set)
18:28:16 <nooga> can >><<<< be optimized to << ?
18:28:27 <AnMaster> nooga, combiner pass would do that
18:28:56 <AnMaster> anyway I'm working on making the shift-type look up table atm
18:30:48 <ehird> 18:27 AnMaster: (the combiner pass will merge them if they have same)
18:30:54 <ehird> then always do the shifting step last
18:31:29 <AnMaster> shifting or combining first :P
18:31:43 <ehird> (1) If they have different offsets, you can shift them.
18:31:50 <ehird> (2) If they don't, the combiner will merge them.
18:31:58 <ehird> If (2) happens, you don't have to deal with it in (1) because you don't know.
18:32:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but shifter calculates the offset when it shifts > forward.
18:32:01 <ehird> So always do (1) after (2)
18:32:04 <ehird> and you can avoid a special case.
18:32:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there are other special cases that you can exploit.
18:32:28 <ehird> but that saves one
18:33:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and I run all the optimiser passes in a loop until tree changes no more.
18:33:13 <ehird> yes, so run (1) last, ie the shifter, in the loop
18:33:15 <AnMaster> so all passes needs to be able to deal with output from later passes.
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18:33:24 <AnMaster> ib_opt_simple_loops, ib_opt_combine,
18:33:24 <AnMaster> ib_analyse_loops_simple, ib_analyse_loops_access,
18:33:34 <AnMaster> sorry for indention mess up when pasting
18:34:35 <AnMaster> like loop->if and polynomiser. That is because the loop access analyser needs more work.
18:34:37 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, so you don't need the special case
18:34:40 <ehird> they ARE different
18:34:45 <ehird> otherwise the combiner would have got them
18:34:47 <ehird> and merged them away
18:35:05 <AnMaster> ehird, only if they were directly after each other at that stage.
18:36:22 <nooga> decompiling sadol to mid-level C would be cool ;d
18:36:48 <ehird> Sweet! By RAID-0ing two X25-M 80GB disks, I can get the RAID-0 performance improvements and also save one cent.
18:37:00 <ehird> Of course, I'm leery of software RAID...
18:39:09 -!- tombom_ has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:40:52 <ehird> who says you can't have your eat and cake it too?
18:41:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Today on Marketdroid Channel:
18:42:12 <ehird> "Super RAID-0 performance, only $-0.01!"
18:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, software RAID puts a larger load on the CPU though
18:42:36 <ehird> ofc, two drives are more likely to fail than one, but it doesn't exactly matter too much if an OS drive fails
18:42:43 <ehird> AnMaster: isn't it very minimal for RAID-0?
18:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: besides, iirc some mobos have onboard RAID nowadays
18:43:00 <ehird> it'll be crappy, but enough for RAID-0
18:43:12 <ehird> after all, RAID-0 isn't even redundant!
18:44:03 <AnMaster> I thought most had it for years
18:44:10 <ehird> well, I wasn't too sure
18:44:27 <AnMaster> both mine and my old one have/had it. Yet both only have/had 2 ram slots.
18:44:35 <ehird> you always tie shit in :-)
18:45:07 <AnMaster> in fact. change that question to be for the whole line
18:45:12 <AnMaster> it didn't make any sense to me
18:45:20 <ehird> AnMaster: to "tie foo in" is to make a roundabout conversation path to make reference to foo when the topic isn't really related
18:45:22 <AnMaster> each word did, just not the whole
18:45:23 <ehird> in this case, at least
18:45:30 <ehird> it's more generic than that, but that's what it means in this context
18:45:53 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:46:34 <ehird> question about sata
18:46:46 <ehird> it's synchronous, isn't it?
18:46:54 <ehird> that is, only one request at a time
18:48:48 <nooga> what's typedef foo bar, baz; ?
18:49:04 <ehird> typedef foo as both bar and ba
18:49:18 <ehird> AnMaster: apparently onboard raid is just software raid.
18:49:21 <nooga> it's in WinNT.h :D
18:49:24 <GregorR> chromakode: Timezones! Tiiiimezones! :P
18:49:35 <ehird> GregorR: wait, how can you know chromakode IRL if different timezones
18:49:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't know
18:49:53 <ehird> maybe it has a mini processor doing it
18:50:02 * ehird looks for a cheap raid card on newegg
18:50:17 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I have a BIOS menu for the RAID. But the manual says it needs Windows 2000, XP or Vista
18:50:20 <GregorR> ehird: We know each other from undergrad, now he's still in undergrad and I'm in grad school.
18:50:31 <GregorR> ehird: Although, I just realized that the problem wasn't timezones, but that I was on a plane :P
18:50:34 <ehird> GregorR: MATHEMATICALLY SUPERIOR TO CHROMAKODE
18:50:49 <GregorR> We were not the same grade :P
18:51:25 <AnMaster> ehird, if you want multiple pending requests to drive you want SCSI, SAS or Firewire iirc.
18:51:37 <ehird> hey, a raid 0/1/jbod controller with 61 reviews @ 5 eggs for $139.99, looks promis— FUCK IT'S SATA 1
18:51:43 <GregorR> Well, Gregor is now in Oregon again. l'vacation.
18:51:46 <ehird> and regular pci, wowz.
18:52:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> hey, a raid 0/1/jbod controller with 61 reviews @ 5 eggs for $139.99, looks promis— FUCK IT'S SATA 1 <-- yes, they make RAID cards iirc.
18:53:20 <ehird> Home > Computer Hardware > Hard Drives > Controllers / RAID Cards > Type[SATA ],Type[SATA / IDE ],Internal Connectors[4 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[8 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[16x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[12x SATA II ],Type[SATA II ],Internal Connectors[2 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[1 x SATA II ],External Ports[8 x SATA II ],External Ports[2 x SATA II ],External Ports[4 x SATA II ],Type[SATA / SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) ],Internal Con
18:53:23 <ehird> nectors[24 x SATA II ],Internal Connectors[2 x SATA II + 1 x ATA 133 ], returned 3 results.
18:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird, "promis—" --> "Promise SuperTrak EX Series support (SCSI_STEX)"
18:53:26 <ehird> it looks like mathematica code.
18:53:32 <ehird> that's just awful,.
18:53:59 <ehird> I'm going to have to kill you
18:54:14 <ehird> i wish it didn't come to this
18:54:20 <GregorR> LEAST DRAMATIC SLAYING EVER
18:55:15 <AnMaster> it isn't valid if you don't list how you kill :P
18:55:40 <ehird> GregorR: it's like
18:55:52 <ehird> GregorR: a gun's silencer right?
18:55:55 <ehird> this is a dramatic silencer
18:55:59 <ehird> for all kinds of kill types
18:56:28 <ehird> * hitler does some killing
18:56:30 <ehird> AnMaster: who said bullet
18:56:33 <ehird> this is a dramatic silencer
18:56:36 <ehird> it works on all types of kill
18:56:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well how did you kill then
18:56:50 <AnMaster> I asked you and you didn't reply
18:56:56 <GregorR> I remember a "management utility" that represented all of your processes as monsters in IIRC the Doom engine.
18:57:01 <ehird> if I told you I'd have wasted the $7,000 I spent on the dramatic silencer!
18:57:11 <ehird> http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
18:57:17 <AnMaster> ehird, um. The kill doesn't work without a reason on IRC
18:57:28 <ehird> 's what it was like before dramatic silencers
18:57:31 <ehird> this is a whole new world now
18:57:41 <GregorR> A whole new wooooooooooooooooooorld *song*
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18:58:05 <AnMaster> ehird, good thing I got heavy armour then. Bullet proof.
18:58:27 <ehird> who said I shot you
18:58:36 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/ <ehird> AnMaster: that"
18:58:44 <ehird> 18:56 GregorR: I remember a "management utility" that represented all of your processes as monsters in IIRC the Doom engine.
18:58:50 <ehird> i meant to highlight GregorR
18:59:00 <ehird> 18:57 ehird: AnMaster: that
18:59:00 <ehird> 18:57 ehird: 's what it was like before dramatic silencers
18:59:06 <ehird> it was a mis-enter
19:00:08 <AnMaster> you can't just kill, you have to kill with something, like a weapon, or blunt trauma (possibly fist)
19:00:18 <ehird> dramatic silencer.
19:00:24 <ehird> keep up with the new irc tech.
19:00:44 <ehird> AnMaster: and creating your own fire poker as a magical oerjan-style weapon out of the blue is invalid too, but you insisted it worked :)
19:01:15 <AnMaster> ehird, a silencer itself can't kill, unless you you use it as a blunt weapon, throwing it against the victim or using it to bash the victim or whatever.
19:01:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you misunderstand
19:01:37 <ehird> a silencer silences the sound of a gun
19:01:46 <ehird> a dramatic silencer silences the record of any kill whatsoever on IRC
19:01:57 <ehird> it cost me $7k, dammit.
19:01:57 <nooga> gentlemans use word
19:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, they recalled them. Didn't you know? Because it turned out they not only silenced the kill, they made it never happen.
19:02:39 <ehird> No they didn't. ← assertion technology
19:03:24 <ehird> SYBA SD-LP-PEX2IR PCI Express SATA II Controller Card - Retail
19:03:25 <ehird> Internal Connectors: 2 x SATA II
19:03:26 <ehird> RAID: Supported Raid 0, 1 (optional) Raid 10, 5 are supported, if drives are connected to a Port Multiplier
19:03:29 <AnMaster> Assertion failed: "<ehird> No they didn't. ← assertion technology" in channel "#esoteric".
19:03:44 <nooga> ehird: I am not deep.
19:07:30 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816103105 ah, this looks nice
19:07:50 <AnMaster> at http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/ what is the "BFG" mentioned
19:08:04 <ehird> AnMaster: the Big Fucking Gun.
19:08:06 <Deewiant> Weapon number 7, the most powerful in the game.
19:08:07 <ehird> It shoots giant gobs of plasma.
19:08:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um. That sounds like a god mode weapon?
19:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: It doesn't kill everything in one shot, iirc, but it's damn powerful.
19:08:43 <ehird> Of course, it's hard to get.
19:09:08 <AnMaster> the "hard to get" like "you can only get it after the boss you would have needed it against" hard?
19:09:21 <ehird> No. Not that hard.
19:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it also has limited ammo.
19:09:40 <Deewiant> Vanilla Doom is so easy, you don't need it at all :-P
19:09:51 <AnMaster> I can't think of any shooting weapon that would have infinite ammo
19:10:05 <ehird> ... I can't think of anything infinite IRL apart from the universe.
19:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, um we don't know that iirc. It could be "huge but finite" iirc
19:10:49 <ehird> We don't "know" anything.
19:10:56 <AnMaster> but I'm no expert on topology.
19:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm using the word "know" here as in: "the evidence is inconclusive, more research needed"
19:12:07 <AnMaster> which is a gross misuse of the exact meaning of "know" indeed!
19:12:43 <ehird> and even that's with the caveat "... as long as there aren't contradictions"
19:15:17 <AnMaster> that doom process interface... The implementation has some major of issues (like processes attacking the sysadmin; though it isn't clear if they only attack in self defence). But with some work I think it could actually work!
19:16:20 <ehird> It'd work best on a fun server where everyone is a sysadmin.
19:16:36 <ehird> Mutually untrusting sysadmins is a huge problem on a non-play system.
19:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, believe me, co-admining a server is messy enough!
19:16:40 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:16:59 <ehird> Geeks aren't the most sociable
19:17:03 <AnMaster> people trying to solve the issue at the same time, from different parts of the world
19:17:25 <fizzie> Hmfh. Seems that orwell.freenode.net's (the FI server) not even trying to get back online.
19:17:58 <AnMaster> anyway: there are some processes that must never be killed, no matter what. Examples: init. the fake processes of the kernel, possibly syslog.
19:18:29 <ehird> what happens if you kill init?
19:19:33 <fizzie> "Kernel panic: Attempted to kill init!" At least I've seen something like that.
19:20:05 <Deewiant> So have I, but only when booting
19:20:24 <Deewiant> I wonder if the message is accurate and it triggers on the attempt, and thus init is immortal
19:20:36 <fizzie> "Note that 'init' is a special process: it doesn't get signals it doesn't want to handle. Thus you cannot kill init even with a SIGKILL even by mistake."
19:20:52 <Deewiant> Aye, thought something of the kind.
19:20:53 <fizzie> That's in arch/{a,lot,of,things}/signal.c.
19:21:04 <ehird> fizzie: Mommy says I'm speshul and don't need to listen to angry signals I don't wanna
19:21:14 <Deewiant> Killing init is like dividing by zero.
19:21:50 <ehird> zsh: floating point exception kill
19:21:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Indeed it is.
19:22:19 <Deewiant> In Soviet Linux, init kills you!
19:22:21 <fizzie> You get printk(KERN_WARNING "tried to kill init!\n"); if the OOM killer attempts accidentally to kill init.
19:22:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Set up a division by zero handler that tries to kill init
19:22:45 <ehird> If we can try one impossible thing, might as well try another.
19:23:05 <Deewiant> You'll end up with something like http://halshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/phpw9jvl0pm.jpg
19:23:27 <ehird> Inside that tunnel... init lurks.
19:23:48 <ehird> Process (1/0) is init.
19:25:03 <Deewiant> kill -9 1 indeed completes successfully but init duly ignores it.
19:25:18 <fizzie> More OOM killer code: p->rt.time_slice = HZ; set_tsk_thread_flag(p, TIF_MEMDIE); /* We give our sacrificial lamb high priority and access to all the memory it needs. That way it should be able to exit() and clear out its resources quickly... */
19:25:35 <ehird> the OOM killer gives its victim full access?
19:25:50 <fizzie> That's immediately before force_sig(SIGKILL, p);
19:26:05 <fizzie> So there's not much you can do with your high priority there.
19:26:09 <ehird> Damn that OOM's one sadistic bitch.
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19:44:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you disabled ht eh :P
19:44:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: is that thing running smoothly? What OS? FreeBSD?
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19:44:42 <ehird> coulda told you so
19:45:03 <bsmntbombdood> the most recent version of ion in ports or packages? from 2002
19:45:43 <ehird> well, you can't ship later than $time_tuomov_adopted_crackheaded_license_forcing_them_to_update_it_4eva
19:45:47 <ehird> but that was post-2002
19:45:55 <ehird> now switch over to the archside >:)
19:48:01 <ehird> "Linux has a NAZI theme--darwin evolution konquer. People who obsess on evolution are sick in the head. They all want to kill-off dumb people. "
19:49:07 <ehird> nothing whatsoever!
19:49:20 <ehird> it's by the weirdo who made this shitOS: http://www.losethos.com/v506.html
19:49:26 <ehird> it only runs in 64 bit real mode and you can only use 16 colours
19:49:29 <ehird> and it comes with a bible application
19:49:44 <ehird> quote from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/
19:50:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 12GB?
19:50:32 <ehird> yes, that is a lot of ram
19:51:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: write a program that uses 4 threads to sort /dev/urandom
19:51:48 <ehird> well, 8 if you're using crappythreading ;))))))
19:52:08 <bsmntbombdood> run the same thing two times in a row - wall clock time the first run was 43.01 seconds, the second run was 43.02 seconds
19:52:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's just your computer becoming obsolete.
19:52:42 <ehird> little known fact is that they actually do this actively
19:52:47 <ehird> your computer really was faster when you first bought it
19:53:01 <nooga> love shack nananana
19:53:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what's your cpu/ram/disk usages?
19:53:11 <nooga> my hdd usage is 1GB/h
19:53:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: er... what % of cpu (up to 800%) is used, how much ram is used, and what does df -h give
19:54:00 <ehird> i'm curious as to how much waste there is :-P
19:54:20 <AnMaster> ehird: http://rafb.net/p/XzzZgG24.html
19:54:28 <bsmntbombdood> with 8 threads running, cpu usage is 100%, load average is 8
19:54:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: is it reporting 8 sep counts
19:54:35 <ehird> AnMaster: too rafb.net; didn't use
19:54:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah. I meant without the crazy sort :-P
19:56:09 <bsmntbombdood> for each proccess it reports of percentage of the cpu it's running on
19:56:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i meant systemwide usage
19:56:31 <ehird> CPU usage: 7.11% user, 8.00% sys, 84.89% idle
19:57:03 <bsmntbombdood> CPU: 0.3% user, 0.0% nice, 0.1% system, 0.0% interrupt, 99.5% idle
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19:58:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what about memory?
19:58:28 <ehird> (does bsd have free(1)? My system doesn't)
19:59:00 <fizzie> There's a memory usage report in top, though.
19:59:10 <bsmntbombdood> Mem: 118M Active, 419M Inact, 490M Wired, 2356K Cache, 399M Buf, 11G Free
19:59:15 <ehird> fizzie: right, but does it include the "The system is reserving gigantic amounts of RAM for its nefarious purposes"
19:59:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so 0.1GB out of 12GB
19:59:51 <ehird> (w/ 0.5GB or so reserved by the OS)
20:00:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how loud's it? (Since I'm getting a similar system...)
20:00:34 <fizzie> htop on the university shell server says: 5348/62807MB; that's also rather a small percentage out of an absurd value.
20:00:55 <bsmntbombdood> but effective, mbmon says 35 degrees idle and 59 loaded
20:01:29 <ehird> you can get an i7 heastink/fan combination that's pretty silent and cools well for ~$45, iirc, but ofc that's only reasonable if it's bugging you
20:01:36 <ehird> but 35 degrees idle is niice
20:01:48 <bsmntbombdood> and the psu i think is making a high pitched whine
20:02:04 <ehird> i skimped a bit on the psu to get it in a case deal, sry
20:02:12 <ehird> apparently cheap psus whine like that
20:02:18 <ehird> meh, it had good reviews
20:02:41 <fizzie> According to 'sensors' this Athlon-X2 I have has a motherboard temperature of 39 degrees, CPU temperature of 30 degrees; while the on-CPU thermometers say 34 degrees for core 1, 36 for core 2. Not quite sure which one to believe.
20:03:29 <ehird> can you measure ram temperature with anything?
20:04:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's a cheap passive card... you said you didn't care about gfx cards :p
20:04:06 <ehird> didn't know it was hot, though
20:04:46 <ehird> didn't mean your ram :p
20:04:55 <ehird> I was just asking anyone if there was a program to look at ram temps
20:05:01 <fizzie> One of my cheap-ish passive cards (7600GT/8600GT) gets really hot too. Both have rather hueg heatsinks.
20:05:11 <ehird> but yeah, your ram is just a regulary ddr3 thing so it should run cool
20:06:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which one
20:07:20 <ehird> but the media one?
20:07:41 <ehird> did you plug it in properly :p
20:08:28 <ehird> ..........................
20:08:58 <fizzie> There's a Logitech "gaming keyboard" (the G19) which has a 320x240 color LCD you can watch youtube stuff on; approximately half of the net-reviews say the keyboard's running some sort of a Linux-based embedded thing, but there are no details anywhere about how it actually works. It does have an external power brick, though. (But it also has an active-powered USB hub, so there.)
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20:09:36 <ehird> fizzie: Now that was non-sequitur!
20:09:45 <fizzie> Hey, it's still about hardware.
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20:20:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tell newegg :P
20:21:58 <ehird> that's what i7, DDR3 and SSD will do to you.
20:22:07 <ehird> RAVAGE YOUR INSIDES
20:22:18 <ehird> it actually powers the application startup by sipping your soul…
20:22:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: start 50 firefoxes
20:23:56 <ehird> BSD userland is barren
20:24:35 * ehird shoves ftp://ftp.archlinux.org/iso/2009.02/archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso.torrent into bsmntbombdood's CD drive
20:25:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: debian stable?
20:25:07 <ehird> enjoy your obsolescence
20:25:38 <ehird> testing didn't even have ext4 stable last I checked
20:27:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: arch has ion3 20090110
20:28:05 <bsmntbombdood> good lord this person i'm talking to at newegg is either dumb, busy, or a really slow typer
20:28:12 <fizzie> Debian has "20090110-1" too.
20:28:23 <ehird> Debian's 20090110 is older than Arch's.
20:28:23 <fizzie> Though in non-free only.
20:28:27 <ehird> By pure law of nature.
20:28:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the debian cd you downloaded was 64bit right
20:29:06 <ehird> fizzie: what version of xorg does debian have?
20:29:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: erm
20:29:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i guess you only want to use 4gb of it
20:29:34 <fizzie> Current debian-installer daily build has kernel 2.6.29-1-amd64, so I guess it should do ext4 just fine.
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20:30:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: seriously, what?
20:30:34 <ehird> 32-bit os with 12gb of ram?
20:30:53 <ehird> that's just the ridiculust thing I ever heard.
20:31:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you'll really regret it
20:31:41 <fizzie> I don't know anything about xorg versioning; as far as I know Debian-unstable doesn't follow the most bleeding-edgeist stuff there, though. xserver-xorg-core is "1.6.1", whatever it means, and xorg itself is "7.4".
20:31:55 <bsmntbombdood> please return your sarcasm detector to the manufacturer for a tune up
20:32:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: oh.
20:32:23 <ehird> (set! (embarrassment-level ehird) infinity)
20:32:30 <ehird> in my defense, there are people that stupid in the world.
20:33:11 <fizzie> You don't get single huge process images, though.
20:33:55 <ehird> yeah, you'd have to split up any large computation
20:34:00 <ehird> which is ridiculous
20:35:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw, if you're gonna wipe the ssd to install $OS, use a tool to ATA SECURE ERASE it
20:35:28 <ehird> since otherwise the blocks from the old install will stay
20:36:08 <ehird> ATA SECURE ERASE is different
20:36:11 <ehird> you need to use a boot disk
20:36:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i think intel point to a tool to do it
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20:37:59 <bsmntbombdood> ...this customer service rep wished me an "eggcellent day"
20:38:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: looking up that eraser thingy
20:38:52 <bsmntbombdood> easier than i thought to get them to replace it though
20:39:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw, if you're installing linux... do the align thing, srsly
20:39:33 <ehird> it's just a few commands and installing to LVM
20:40:12 <ehird> If you are doing a clean setup of your machine and want to restore your drive to its native state you’ll have to perform a secure erase. Intel distributed a tool with the first X25-M review kits called HDD ERASE. This tool will take any SSD and free every last page on the drive. Obviously you’ll lose all of your data but your drive will be super fast again!
20:40:15 <ehird> In order for HDDERASE to work you need to have your SATA controller running in Legacy IDE mode, you can select this in your BIOS. Your drive will have to be connected to one of the first four SATA ports off of the controller.
20:40:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Step one: make DOS bootdisk. Step two: Turn on legacy IDE shit in your BIOS. Step three: http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/HDDEraseWeb.zip
20:41:21 <fizzie> hdparm has a "--security-erase" flag nowadays.
20:41:37 <ehird> fizzie: does that just overwrite many times
20:41:41 <ehird> is a very specific command
20:41:58 <fizzie> It's under "ATA Security Feature Set", I would hope that's what it does.
20:42:13 <ehird> Well, you'd need to boot from a livecd anyway to do it.
20:42:42 <fizzie> Sure, and the hdparm flag is "EXPERIMENTAL AND NOT WELL TESTED. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK."
20:43:00 <fizzie> You might, for example, lose all your data. :p
20:50:26 <fizzie> Shouldn't look at the smartctl info, it makes me paranoidishically worrysome about the numbers I don't know how to interpret.
20:51:48 <fizzie> Well, the http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ has hdderase included by default.
20:53:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i like how you'll spent $1.7k on a top-o'-the-range computer and then refuse to spend 5 minutes maintaining it :D
20:55:27 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure why you'd exactly have to wipe the disk, though; unless it's some sort of religious "this disk still smells like freebsd even though I made new filesystems" thing.
20:55:40 <ehird> fizzie: it's how SSDs work
20:55:48 <ehird> they try desperately not to reuse a block
20:56:02 <ehird> and when they have no blocks left, have to do the 2ms or so rewriting process on a write
20:56:13 <ehird> so you have to erase it totally to get back the blocks
20:56:34 <ehird> ATA TRIM support in OSes can help, but isn't really anywhere yet
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21:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.com/d5f49c085
21:10:14 <AnMaster> what I'm going to do is write a "kind of DSL" to do it. Basically a function taking pairs, which can return: false | {true, TranslatorFunction} | {sort, [Field, ...], [{Field,Field}, ...]}
21:10:25 <AnMaster> and possibly some other variants
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21:31:10 <ehird> also, eurgh debian
21:31:14 <ehird> why did i help him :^)
21:32:51 <ehird> yeah I even offered him Arch
21:32:58 <Gracenotes> I am one of them, most regretfully. I '$ cut' my files every day in remorse
21:33:14 <ehird> Gracenotes: I remember that Dasher screenshot you gave... that was the Ubuntu theme.
21:33:23 <ehird> SPREADING A BIT OF DISINFORMATION ARE WE?
21:34:03 <Gracenotes> personally, I use my favorite operating system, UIND
21:34:32 <AnMaster> ehird, did you look at that link?
21:35:02 <AnMaster> ehird, a single trivial rule won't solve that is my point
21:35:09 <ehird> Gracenotes: what's that OS that the crazy jap was posting about on /prog/ saying other OSes were whores and tools and this OS was a human
21:35:14 <ehird> because I used that before Anonix.
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21:36:22 <ehird> "At Railsconf 2009 the guys over at Phusion released Rubystein, a Wolfenstein clone written in Ruby."
21:36:26 <ehird> The epitome of Ruby's speed.
21:37:26 <impomatic> The original was written by the same guy who did RobotWar
21:37:41 <ehird> impomatic: I refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D
21:37:48 <ehird> Someone ported it to Ruby, which is funny because Ruby is slow.
21:38:52 <ehird> impomatic: he didn't do robotwar
21:38:55 <ehird> he just ported it to the apple II
21:39:07 <ehird> "Warner died in March 2004 after a long battle with kidney disease."
21:39:22 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.com/d7f374825
21:39:40 <ehird> I can't read Erlang.
21:40:15 <impomatic> I thought he wrote the original, and ported it?
21:40:50 <ehird> Warner was a major contributor to the early PLATO system in not just the area of gaming but also as an educational content developer. RobotWar and its editor program RobotWrite originated on the PLATO system in the 1970s. This
21:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that is quite a trivial subset: [foo] [foo, bar] are lists, {a,b} is a 2-tuple, {a,b,c} is a 3-tuple. Foo is a variable, foo is an atom. _ means "match anything"
21:41:08 <ehird> i know, I just can't follow the logic, AnMaster
21:41:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "Some other parts is not valid erlang syntax either"
21:41:32 <ehird> AnMaster: write it in haskell... same for lists... (a,b) is a tuple, foo is a variable, "foo" is an atom, _ means match anything >:)
21:41:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't care, but what did you mean with it :-P
21:41:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I need to translate it to foo(Ins, _) when Ins = foo; Ins = bar
21:42:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it is regex style |
21:42:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it is the syntax used in erlang -type and -spec specifications
21:42:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would be correct yes
21:42:54 <ehird> I want to learn how to program the C-64's SID chip.
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21:43:08 <ehird> I don't know where to start :-)
21:43:22 <ehird> Nope, just a bunch of archives.
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21:44:28 <Deewiant> Have a look at http://web.archive.org/web/20070513193613/http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/ for instance.
21:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, can a function have multiple entry points in haskell? LIke this set of pattern matching entry points used here.
21:44:51 <ehird> Although it's not "entry point".
21:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, names may differ.
21:45:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, rather than using "foo" for an atom, you could do data MyStuff = AnAtom | AnotherAtom Int | Foo
21:45:23 <ehird> where the Int is like passing {anotherAtom,3} in erlang
21:45:29 <ehird> (matched as (AnotherAtom x))
21:45:44 <ehird> Deewiant: that's more reference than tutorial
21:45:53 <AnMaster> Ett fel uppstod vid laddning av http://web.archive.org/web/20070513193613/http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/:
21:45:53 <AnMaster> Anslutningen var till web.archive.org på port 80
21:46:28 <Deewiant> Not when I posted that it wasn't
21:46:39 <AnMaster> ah now it works again. But slow
21:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It's our revenge for .se having google.
21:46:51 <AnMaster> ehird, damn, you stole my next comment!
21:47:11 <OoS> Web archive is slow here too. I've been searching for Programming Game stuff on there.
21:47:28 <AnMaster> OoS, it is *always* slow. Just usually not _this_ slow
21:49:43 <OoS> I've been going through the list of programming games at http://aiforge.net trying to archive the stuff which hasn't disappeared yet. I hate linkrot.
21:56:35 <ehird> "Handle it like nuclear waste! (i.e. with forks)"
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22:55:45 <fizzie> ehird: The same programming reference book I linked to has the SID waveforms and registers and such described.
22:55:57 <ehird> right; there's lots of references
22:56:19 <fizzie> Tutorials are for people who can't read references. :p
23:02:54 <ais523> ehird: you know earlier today you were talking about Google being down/slow, and I was talking about Internet politics?
23:03:00 <ais523> according to Slashdot, the two are linked
23:03:09 <ehird> Did Netcraft confirm it?
23:03:12 <ais523> it seems someone screwed up the routing rules at Google
23:03:17 <ais523> and it tried to route all its traffic via Asia
23:03:19 <ehird> fizzie: what was that comic with the army-of-wangs-stalking-nightmares thing?
23:03:59 <ais523> ehird: Google confirms it: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/this-is-your-pilot-speaking-now-about.html
23:05:48 <ais523> this reminds me of how Pakistan accidentally blackholed YouTube a while back, while just trying to block it within the country
23:06:02 <ais523> really, I'm not at all sure that managing the AS connections by hand is a good idea
23:06:32 <ais523> good thing an AS number is 16-bit, so there can only be about 65000 of the things messing up at most
23:07:20 <ais523> slightly less because some of them are private use
23:07:31 * ais523 idly wonders who's AS 1
23:07:48 <ehird> Ooh, slashdot reports that the Radeon HD 4890 has been clocked to 1GHz.
23:07:54 <ehird> How deliciously excessiv.
23:08:09 <Deewiant> lThere are 32-bit AS numbers, IIRC.
23:08:26 <ais523> heh: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/asnrequestform.html
23:08:31 <ehird> And there's a link to SPCR in the comments! How homely.
23:08:35 <ais523> that form scares me on about 3 levels
23:08:51 <Deewiant> ais523: http://www.iana.org/assignments/as-numbers/
23:08:57 <ehird> As of 1 January 2009, the RIPE NCC began assigning 32-bit (or four-byte) Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) by default. This is in accordance with a common policy agreed on in all Regional Internet Registry (RIR) communities and described in the RIPE Document, Autonomous System (AS) Number Assignment Policies and Procedures.
23:09:01 <ehird> Deewiant: not exactly old.
23:09:06 <Deewiant> Couple of 32-bit ones at the bottom there.
23:09:12 <ais523> ah, if it's 32-bit nowadays they aren't in such short supply nowadays
23:09:16 <ehird> ais523: name the ways!
23:09:22 <ais523> well, the import: export: at the end
23:09:27 <ais523> "please tell us your routing policy"
23:09:33 <ais523> as if anyone would do that
23:09:41 <ais523> the things tend to change every few minutes
23:09:58 <ais523> we know ARIN owns it, but not who they gave it to
23:10:11 <ehird> ais523: how many ASs would you have to operate to get a good portion of the internet down?
23:10:12 <ais523> also, the fact that it's a template for an email you're supposed to send them
23:10:29 <ais523> ehird: the entire internet has been brought down by misconfiguring 1 before
23:10:35 <pikhq> I'd need a network map to be sure.
23:10:36 <ais523> although they're more robust against that sort of thing nowadays
23:10:50 <pikhq> ehird: This was probably '95 or earlier, I'd imagine.
23:10:51 <ais523> a few years ago it seems
23:10:53 <ehird> ais523: but, more realistically
23:10:56 <ais523> and it would only have blocked inter-AS routing
23:11:07 <ehird> as in, how many would you need to bring them down without much luck
23:11:19 <ais523> a small ISP somewhere in Asia somehow managed to advertise a zero-length route to every IPv4 address in existence
23:11:31 <pikhq> Now, about the worst that happens with misconfiguration is a single AS or a group of AS's are screwed up.
23:11:33 <ais523> and blackholed every IP there was as a result
23:11:40 <ehird> ais523: right, but that's just local
23:11:52 <ais523> length 0 is pretty short
23:11:56 <ehird> blackholed every IP ever?
23:11:57 <Deewiant> Also for anything that goes through there.
23:12:07 <ais523> ehird: unless it was within one ISP
23:12:13 <pikhq> ais523: A large number of ASs filter out obviously false routes.
23:12:15 <ais523> Deewiant: everything /would/ go through there, it was the shortest route!
23:12:17 <ehird> ais523: did anything happen to them?
23:12:18 <ais523> pikhq: all of them nowadays
23:12:32 <ais523> ehird: yes, they got Usenet Death Penaltied, except generalised to the whole internet
23:12:33 <pikhq> And it wouldn't necessarily be the shortest route.
23:12:34 <ehird> seems like that sort of stuff ought to be illegal :P
23:12:43 <ais523> all the ASes they were connected to terminated their agreements with them
23:12:46 <pikhq> There's still the hops it takes to get to that ISP.
23:12:47 <ais523> and so they went out of busineses
23:13:04 <ehird> operating an isp must suck
23:13:18 <Deewiant> ais523: I wasn't sure if it would spread that well, but evidently so.
23:13:31 <ais523> Deewiant: it wouldn't have been perfect
23:13:37 <ais523> I imagine it wouldn't have affected the length-1 peering agreements
23:13:43 <ais523> maybe not provider-peer-customer either
23:13:45 <pikhq> We've got rather brittle routing protocols.
23:13:52 <ais523> anything more complicated, though, would likely have ended up being blackholed
23:13:57 <ehird> oh, length 0 = you can get to me with no hops!
23:14:10 <ehird> ais523: are they lied about a lot?
23:14:11 <ais523> although that would be translated by the ASes next door
23:14:16 <ais523> into "you can get to bad-ISP in one hop"
23:14:20 <ais523> so it starts to diffuse slightly
23:14:33 <ais523> it's more fun than that
23:14:39 <pikhq> Length 0 means "That's one of my other interfaces."
23:14:44 <ais523> ASes are known to make routes look more convoluted than they are
23:14:53 <ehird> "Don't go here, man."
23:14:57 <ais523> in order to try to persuade routers to send the traffic another way
23:14:58 <ehird> "It'll take you aaaaaagges. Pick the other guy."
23:15:14 <ehird> ais523: so, essentially, the job of an AS operator is to ensure it gets used as little as possible?
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23:15:23 <ais523> and to get rid of the traffic ASAP if it turns up
23:15:45 <ais523> imagine you are on an AS that serves all of Europe
23:16:00 <ais523> and you want to send a packet to someone in Egypt on an AS that serves all of north Africa
23:16:11 <ais523> when you send it, it'll go south and then across Africa
23:16:17 <ais523> because your AS is trying to get rid of it as soon as they can
23:16:23 <pikhq> ehird: That's the job of any AS that uses peered links.
23:16:37 <ais523> the return packet will go north and across Europe, because that AS is trying to get rid of it as fast as /it/ can
23:16:38 <pikhq> An AS that purchases transit has a different job.
23:16:50 <pikhq> Send those packets the cheapest way possible.
23:16:51 <ais523> so round-trips tend to be actually round, rather than along a straight line
23:17:01 <pikhq> Even if that means sending it through your rack of modems. :p
23:17:25 <ais523> peering is all about passing as little traffic as you can, while persuading the other guy to pass as much of your traffic as you can persuade them to
23:17:46 <ais523> with purchasing, you can happily pass all the traffic your customer wants as it gives you an excuse to charge them extra
23:18:30 <ais523> ehird: another scary thing on that AS request form is the website-if-available
23:18:30 <pikhq> I think the only reason our current setup works at all is that IP is one ridiculously robust protocol.
23:18:37 <ais523> "Hi, I want to start an ISP. No, I don't have a website."
23:19:32 <ehird> I wonder if the ASs in the more socialist countries are better. :-P
23:20:57 <ais523> <AS Number Request Form> x-ncc-regid:
23:21:06 <ais523> that x- almost scares me more than the rest of the form
23:21:10 <ais523> although I'm not entirely sure why
23:21:26 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:21:47 <ais523> ah, a bit of sanity: % Which address prefix will originate from the new AS number?
23:22:17 <ais523> which means that RIPE at least are planning to tell people what sort of sanity checks to put on new ASes
23:22:35 <ais523> if an ISP can only blackhole itself, it just ends up looking stupid rather than being ostracised to death
23:22:45 <ais523> and I'm sure RIPE would raise eyebrows if it was given 0.0.0.0/0
23:23:01 <ais523> like the top-tier ISPs end up being able to advertise
23:24:22 <ehird> ais523: what does that mean?
23:24:26 <ehird> the full ip space?
23:24:38 <ais523> ofc, they don't advertise the whole thing
23:24:44 <ais523> but they might need to advertise any individual bit of it
23:24:50 <ais523> depending on conditions elsewhere on the internet
23:25:12 <ais523> because the top-tier ISPs are top-tier precisely because people pay them to route anywhere without going via a parent ISP
23:25:29 <ehird> ais523: with all of these variables, I bet you could derive a mathematical proof that the internet can't possibly work
23:25:56 <ais523> as I've said before, it's been proven that it's uncomputable to determine whether it works at any given instant, even with perfect information
23:26:26 <ais523> that's different from a proof that it can't possibly work
23:30:03 <ais523> ooh, ASes have their own equivalent of example.com
23:30:23 <ais523> it's the range 65536-65551
23:30:36 <ais523> I have no idea what happens if you attempt to route there
23:30:41 <ais523> you'd have to be an ISP to even /try/
23:31:03 <ehird> well, then, let's fill out that form and see
23:31:11 <ehird> (↑ this is the kind of attitude I take to everything)
23:31:45 <ais523> RIPE would ask you to take out an account with them, I expect
23:31:52 <ais523> are they even the right continent?
23:32:26 <ehird> see? we're all set.
23:32:49 <ais523> there are instructions for filling out the form: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/asnsupport.html
23:33:24 <ehird> Enter your Registry Identifier (RegID) in the "x-ncc-regid:" field. RegIDs have the following format: <country code>.<name>.
23:33:25 <ehird> If you do not know your RegID, please contact <ncc@ripe.net>.
23:33:55 <ehird> AS Number Type: 16-bit
23:33:55 <ehird> Why 16-bit: Our routers are not 32-bit enabled.
23:34:02 <ehird> you can saturate the net with a perfect excuse!
23:34:10 <ais523> ehird: you may have problem filling in the bit where you mark the two ASs who will peer with you
23:34:25 <ais523> getting two existing ISPs to sponsor your application is likely beyond even your ability
23:34:26 <ehird> ais523: Bogons operates an open peering policy, and is keen to peer with ISPs, either publicly at a common Peering Point, or privately at a common site. We are especially keen to peer with networks offering multicast transit or to end users.
23:34:38 <ehird> it's two people, but unfortunately I think they're too ethical
23:34:41 <ais523> do you even /own/ an AS router?
23:34:54 <ehird> how much do they cost :^)
23:35:01 <ais523> apparently you can convert linux boxes into them
23:35:09 <ais523> so you could probably fix an old computer into one for free
23:35:29 <ehird> do I need any sort of special telephone line or something, like you need to start a dsl isp :-P
23:36:10 <ais523> seriously, you aren't going through with this, though, are you?
23:36:21 <ais523> I seriously wonder what RIPE's reaction would be
23:36:25 <ais523> this is a form of performance art
23:36:30 <ais523> like Agora running a court case against Hillary Clinton
23:36:47 <ehird> even though all the effort would come down to "We have decided to decline your AS application. -RIPE"
23:37:15 <ais523> what IPs would you advertise?
23:37:21 <ehird> ais523: can you choose?
23:37:24 <ais523> it can't be ones you already have, as they belong to a different ISP
23:37:30 <ais523> you have to rent out the IPs first
23:37:37 <ais523> from the people who assign IPs
23:37:48 <ais523> going IPv6 only would probably make it easier to get hold of a few IPs of your own
23:37:48 <ehird> ais523: advertising more IPs = more traffic coming my way, right?
23:38:00 <ais523> ehird: traffic comes your way only if it's to an IP you advertise
23:38:07 <ais523> and you get in trouble if you don't actually have a route to it
23:38:19 <ais523> you also advertise IPs that belong to your customers
23:38:24 <ehird> and, um, I'm going to be routing everything to the AS example.com
23:38:28 <ais523> because you don't carry traffic to other people
23:38:30 <ehird> I think "trouble" is an understatement
23:38:38 <ehird> (ok, I probably won't follow through with it...)
23:39:12 <ais523> probably not following through is all the best
23:39:12 <ehird> ais523: so how do you actually get traffic flow your way?
23:39:21 <ais523> well, most ISPs consider that a bad thing
23:39:32 <ais523> but if you're the (only|best) person who advertises an address
23:39:42 <ais523> then traffic to that address is sent to you, on the assumption that you know where to route it to
23:39:49 <ais523> so ISPs advertise the IPs of their customers, for instance
23:39:50 <ehird> wow, if you enable javascript on slashdot.org
23:39:53 <ehird> you get the endless pageless style
23:39:58 <ehird> (more items come as you scroll)
23:40:06 <ais523> yes, but so slowly it doesn't really feel endless
23:40:13 <ehird> fast enough for me
23:40:22 <ehird> ais523: the problem is that they don't do it before you get to the end
23:40:23 <ehird> which is the whole point
23:41:45 <ehird> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/14/0320234 "Cory Doctorow advocates impossible licensing technique in a desperate death throw attempt to give bits value"
23:42:12 <ais523> creative commons + a royalty requirement?
23:42:18 <ais523> has he checked that that isn't self-contradictory?
23:42:32 <ais523> but I'd advise at least reading the license you're modifying first
23:42:44 <ehird> Cory was one of the first major CC advocates
23:42:54 <ais523> for instance, with cc-by-sa + royalty requirement, who gets the royalties, the original author or the person who modified it?
23:43:45 <ehird> http://oxyron-party.untergrund.net/fanta_in_space.mp3 ← I can't believe this came out of a C-64.
23:44:02 <ais523> hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_carrier is interesting
23:44:39 <ehird> By definition, a Tier 1 network does not purchase IP transit from any other network or pay settlements to any other network to reach any other portion of the Internet. Therefore, in order to be a Tier 1, a network must peer with every other Tier 1 network. A new network cannot become a Tier 1 without the implicit approval of every other Tier 1 network, since any one network's refusal to peer with it will prevent the new network from being considered a Ti
23:44:43 <ais523> the funny thing, of course, is that most traffic's handled by peering at the tier-2 level
23:45:02 <ehird> actually, the list of tier 1 networks is rather disturbing
23:45:05 <ais523> and yes, if there are any two tier 1 networks who don't peer, it causes a rift in the internet
23:45:11 <ehird> most of them are gigantic blob ISPs
23:45:21 <ehird> like AT&T, Verio, Qwest, Sprint, Verizon...
23:45:28 <ais523> there are other ways to do that, but tier 1 vs. tier 1 is a rather simple way
23:45:59 <ais523> ooh, Cogent settled with Sprint
23:46:05 <ais523> I was wondering how that particular rift got sealed
23:46:14 <ais523> but it seems Cogent's paying Sprint money now to maintain the same relationship as before
23:46:28 <ehird> I've never heard good stuff about Cogent
23:46:55 <ehird> A case of industrial espionage arose in 1995 that involved both Intel and AMD. Guillermo Gaede, an Argentine formerly employed both at AMD and at Intel's Arizona plant, was arrested for attempting in 1993 to sell the i486 and Pentium designs to AMD and to certain foreign powers.[23] Gaede videotaped data from his computer screen at Intel and mailed it to AMD, which immediately alerted Intel and authorities, resulting in Gaede's arrest. Gaede was convicte
23:46:57 <ehird> d and sentenced to 33 months in prison in June 1996.[24][25]
23:47:11 <ehird> "I'm just going to send this to AMD out of the blue. They'll like that!"
23:47:47 <coppro> wait, AMD alerted Intel?
23:47:55 <ais523> if someone sends you a competitor's secret stuff
23:48:01 <ais523> you tell them so as not to be accused of using it
23:48:08 <ehird> that's not really respect
23:48:17 <ehird> it's a very trivial kind of ethics
23:48:23 <ehird> that even slimes probably know of :P
23:48:38 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Intel_Costa_12_2007_SJO_105b.jpg the little blocks look like heatsinks.
23:49:18 <Slereah_> Intel is actually a giant processor
23:49:20 <ehird> "No one has an office; everyone, even Otellini, sits in a cubicle."—[[Intell Corporation]]
23:49:37 <ais523> nah, the entire company of Intel lives inside my computer
23:49:45 <ais523> have you not seen their advertising?
23:49:45 <ehird> ais523: what happens when you turn it off?
23:49:52 <ais523> ehird: presumably they keep working
23:49:58 <ais523> they're large enough to have their own power supply
23:50:21 <ehird> ais523: so if you left it off long enough ...
23:50:42 <ais523> well, presumably they sometimes get hungry and pop out for a pizza
23:50:47 <ais523> but they're american, so they only do it while I'm asleep
23:50:56 <ais523> timezone difference, you see
23:51:02 <ehird> must be a dangerous place for someone so small
23:51:41 <ehird> wow, intel kept the same logo from 1968-2005
23:51:51 <ais523> and then changed it? no wonder they're in trouble
23:52:03 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Intel_Logo.svg old
23:52:04 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/Intel-logo.svg new
23:52:05 <ais523> changing a logo you haven't changed for decades strikes me as the sort of thing companies only do when desperate
23:52:07 <ehird> I prefer the new one tbh
23:52:28 <ais523> yes, even if it is an improvement, it's not the sort of thing a company does when they're doing well
23:52:40 <ais523> and I prefer the new one too
23:52:44 <ehird> ais523: I think Intel were doing well in 2005. Remember, they came out with the Core 2 processors then.
23:52:48 <ehird> Those were *wildly* successful.
23:53:14 <ehird> Core doesn't run the Core architecture
23:53:19 <ehird> Core 2 runs the Core architecture; are you confused yet?
23:53:35 <ehird> oh, and Core weren't desktop CPUs
23:53:44 <ehird> they were mobile cpus based on P6
23:53:45 <ais523> core 2 was one of Intel's first really succesfull CPUs in ages
23:53:51 <ehird> oh wait, core was 2006-2008
23:53:54 <ehird> so you had core and core 2 simultaneously
23:54:00 <ehird> core was based on P6 and was a mobile processor
23:54:06 <ehird> core 2 was based on Core and was a desktop processor
23:54:19 <ehird> the Core processor appeared in the mac mini
23:54:24 <ehird> despite not being a desktop processor
23:54:27 <ehird> are you confused yet?
23:56:04 <ais523> no, but only because I wasn't trying to follow it
23:57:20 <ais523> anyway, if you want to screw around with ASes, it only takes a minimum 8 computers to make an Internet
23:57:33 <ais523> yes, the traditional Jeremy Clarkson deliberate error is correct here
23:57:44 <ehird> The Internets connect to form an Internet!
23:57:49 <ais523> in fact, it's generally believed that more than one Internet exists as it is, there's just the one big famous one
23:58:16 <ais523> and if you make your own Internet, you can assign all the AS numbers and IPs as you like
23:58:18 <ehird> "generally believed"?
23:58:28 <ais523> well, the US Army almost certainly has one
23:58:34 <ehird> an internet is just a network of computers that is international :P
23:58:34 <ais523> but it's hard to tell for certain
23:58:43 <ais523> an internet is a network of network
23:58:50 <ehird> ais523: step one, join army, step two, see if there's any internets?
23:59:11 <ais523> I imagine the Army mostly uses the well-known public Internet
23:59:15 <ehird> (step 3, get killed in staged combat so you don't reveal the horrible secret of the army's cthulhunet)
23:59:27 <ais523> but I wouldn't be surprised if it had a private one too, for more important or secret messages
23:59:37 <ais523> Intellipedia is known to exist, after all
23:59:47 <ais523> it's like a US Wikipedia for spies
23:59:50 <ais523> it even runs MediaWiki
23:59:52 <ehird> more than known to exist
23:59:52 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Screenshot-Intellipedia.png
00:00:14 <ehird> "ANYONE USING THIS SYSTEM EXPRESSLY CONSENTS TO MONITORING"
00:00:19 <ehird> just put words in my mouth why don't you!
00:00:28 <ehird> https://www.intelink.gov/
00:06:32 <ais523> login page is not at all surprising
00:06:44 <ais523> I certainly imagine intellipedia doesn't have much vandalism
00:06:48 <ais523> people would likely get fired for that
00:12:00 <ehird> mm, i can't wait to get my new machine
00:12:08 <ehird> I'm becoming increasingly dissatisfied with os x
00:30:34 <ais523> is that bye #esoteric, or bye OS X?
00:30:42 <ais523> and what are you disliking about it atm?
00:33:36 <ais523> I guess that was bye #esoteric
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01:01:57 <ais523> haha: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Therac-25.&action=history
01:02:05 <ais523> someone at reddit typoed a link to Wikipedia
01:02:16 <ais523> and instead of editing the link, they just edited Wikipedia to add in a redirect
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02:55:21 <ski__> ehird,fizzie : you should do `load "$",8', then `list', without the `,1' secondary address to `load'
02:57:07 <ski__> (istr with the `,1' it will load the directory (as a BASIC program) on $0400, which is the start of the screen memory on C64 .. it might have been that $0400 was the start of BASIC program memory on older PET machines, i'm not sure)
02:58:44 <ski__> (the `,1' basically tells `load' to load the program not into the current BASIC memory, but instead to the address that the program was saved from .. in the case of the directory, though, the "program" is synthesized by the disk drive, so it just invents the origin address $0400 for some reason)
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08:00:02 <bsmntbombdood> my load average goes above 1 while watching flash video
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08:04:25 <fizzie> That's rather curious; on this work-workstation, playing a random U-tube video results in ~18% CPU usage for Firefox, and ~8% for Xorg.
08:12:40 <bsmntbombdood> it's also giving me all sorts of weird artifacts...
08:27:13 * ski__ listens to `Turkish_towel'
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12:50:05 <asiekierka> I had an idea on how to not waste ram with function i won't use later on
12:50:20 <asiekierka> I basically make a slot of $100 or $200 bytes, and then after the init function is done
12:50:47 <asiekierka> after execution is finished, i get about 128 bytes of saving for now
12:50:54 <asiekierka> also, I have a routine to clear blocks of $100 now
12:52:18 <asiekierka> As well as I have finally fixed putc (just need to do backspace and cursor), and I did HextoStr and stuff
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13:16:10 <asiekierka> 1010 bytes, everything except backspace is done
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16:05:54 <ehird> 23:30 ais523: and what are you disliking about it atm?
16:05:57 <ehird> it's too conventional
16:05:59 <ehird> also, bsmntbombdood:
16:06:06 <ehird> make sure you have the proprietary flash player,
16:06:08 <ehird> disable hyperthreading,
16:06:13 <ehird> and make sure you have the proper nvidia drivers
16:06:17 <ehird> preferably the proprietary ones
16:06:29 <ehird> also you can't edit links on reddit
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16:37:05 * pikhq discovers that the IBM mainframe hypervisor was released as public domain until the mid-80s...
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16:45:04 <ehird> hypervisor is such a cool nam
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16:53:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> I had an idea on how to not waste ram with function i won't use later on
16:53:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> I basically make a slot of $100 or $200 bytes, and then after the init function is done
16:54:14 <AnMaster> um, I remember seeing in the Linux kernel bootup output something like "Freeing unused SMP function variants... freed 5K"
16:54:52 <AnMaster> I assume it would do the reverse (freeing single cpu variants) on SMP machines.
16:57:16 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> also, I have a routine to clear blocks of $100 now <-- fixed size memset?
16:57:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> disable hyperthreading, <-- why.
16:58:08 <ehird> AnMaster: because hyperthreading is broken
16:58:26 <ehird> it's (1) a hack to get around bad pipelining (2) increases cache thrashing a lot
16:58:41 <pikhq> And the Atom doesn't have bad pipelining.
16:58:42 <ehird> it's unlikely that it's causing his load issues but he should disable it anyway :)
16:58:47 <ehird> pikhq: it's not an atom
16:58:49 <AnMaster> why then did Intel reintroduce it.
16:58:50 <ehird> it's a nehalem :-p
16:58:55 <ehird> AnMaster: marketability?
16:59:02 <pikhq> The Nehalem has *crazy good* pipelining.
16:59:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: It was popular in the Pentium 4 line.
16:59:22 <pikhq> And the Pentium 4 sorely needed it.
16:59:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, I had a P4 once. Early one
16:59:47 <pikhq> Hyperthreading made a difference on that architecture.
17:00:02 <AnMaster> it ran at 1.8 GHz or something like that
17:00:52 <ehird> I wonder when Intel will get off their butts and release Larrabee.
17:00:58 <ehird> Although apparently it's crap.
17:01:41 <ehird> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_(GPU), fyi]
17:01:48 <pikhq> Of course, the downsides of hyperthreading are somewhat reduced on Linux, which has a hyperthreading-aware scheduler.
17:01:55 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, but still
17:01:56 <AnMaster> ehird, is it crap? that is news to me
17:01:58 <ehird> that cache thrashing
17:02:02 <ehird> pikhq: and also, 4 cores is enough for anyone ;-)
17:02:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Larrabee's early presentation has drawn some criticism from GPU competitors. At NVISION 08, several NVIDIA employees called Intel's SIGGRAPH paper about Larrabee "marketing puff" and told the press that the Larrabee architecture was "like a GPU from 2006".[7]
17:02:17 <pikhq> (without one, it treats the hyperthreading CPU as two full cores. Bad performance ahoy!)
17:02:20 <ehird> ofc, nvidia has a reason to be biased
17:02:31 <ehird> but... otoh, it doesn't seem like they'd outright lie
17:02:44 <ehird> also, a GPU running x86 sounds fairly pointless.
17:02:55 <pikhq> ehird: Intel has always done low-end GPUs. That their GPUs are now from 2006 is a massive step up.
17:03:11 <pikhq> And the main draw of Larrabee is being highly programmable.
17:03:32 <AnMaster> well so are recent nvidia and ati cards iirc
17:03:33 <pikhq> This is a chip you play around with real-time raytracing on. ;)
17:03:45 <AnMaster> nvidia's cuda and whatever ati's one was called
17:03:47 <pikhq> They *are*, but they're a pain to program for.
17:03:52 <ehird> pikhq: Nah, you need a specialized chip to do that. See Caustic Graphics; they get about 5fps.
17:04:17 <pikhq> They're technically Turing-complete, but if your code does much branching, it's faster to do it on a CPU.
17:04:29 <AnMaster> having a computer based completely on fpgas would be interesting
17:04:32 <ehird> GPUs are for embarrasingly parallel stuff ;-)
17:04:39 <AnMaster> would allow some interesting optimised algorithms
17:04:39 <ehird> AnMaster: err, that;'s called any hobbyist computer
17:04:46 <ehird> it's also called "dog slow"
17:05:03 <AnMaster> ehird, why is it so slow? Because it is hobbyist?
17:05:05 <pikhq> The Larrabee is also for embarassingly parallel jobs.
17:05:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's an FPGA!
17:05:37 <pikhq> ehird: They do at least get some benefit from having appropriate circuitry possible.
17:05:49 <pikhq> Still, you're running it at 100Mhz.
17:05:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Think about how an FPGA works, and then think about fabricating silicon.
17:06:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: FPGAs are hard as hell to make with smaller processes.
17:06:38 <pikhq> Really, FPGAs are hard as hell to make.
17:06:38 <AnMaster> but programmable hardware is cool anyway!
17:07:03 <pikhq> It's cool, but not something that you're likely to ship on a production board.
17:07:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, how come they are used so much then. For when a ASIC would be too expensive.
17:07:38 <pikhq> Because ASICs are done in large batches.
17:07:52 <pikhq> Why order 100,000 ASICs if you need 100 FPGAs to do the same?
17:08:04 <ehird> 17:07 AnMaster: pikhq, how come they are used so much then. For when a ASIC would be too expensive.
17:08:07 <ehird> Because ASICs are expensive
17:08:38 <AnMaster> ever read about Synthesis? I think someone in here linked it.
17:09:10 <AnMaster> lockless SMP OS, with runtime modification. Ran on some old Motorola CPU with double-CAS instruction.
17:09:57 <ehird> Semiconductor fabrication scares me. It's so damn small.
17:10:25 <AnMaster> http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/
17:11:11 <ehird> lwn.net requires fuckin' subscription.
17:11:27 <ehird> But I clicked other links on the sidebar.
17:11:30 <ehird> And it asked me to pay.
17:12:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I read parts of the thesis/paper/whatever, and it described testing on a system with a programmable MMU to test performance in case of two CPUs requested at once. Which is hard to test reliably. So the MMU was programmed to simulate it.
17:12:29 <ehird> I wonder when we'll get 8-core chips from Intel
17:13:35 <AnMaster> ehird, double-ended queues with one producer and one consumer updating at the same time, lockless.
17:13:54 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like Snake ;-)
17:14:25 <ehird> every tick you lose a block at your end and get another at the start
17:14:33 <ehird> consumer, producer, consumer, producer
17:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they were wait-free too.
17:16:10 <AnMaster> "The current implementation of Synthesis runs on two machines: the Quamachine and the Sony NEWS 1860 workstation. As described in section 1.3.4, the Quamachine is a home-brew, experimental 68030-based computer system designed to aid systems research and measurement. Its measurement facilities include an instruction counter, a memory reference counter, hardware program tracing, and a memory-mapped cloc
17:16:10 <AnMaster> k with 20-nanosecond resolution. The processor can operate at any clock speed from 1 MHz up to 50 MHz. Normally it runs at 50 MHz. But by changing the processor speed and introducing waitstates into the main memory access, the Quamachine can closely emulate the performance characteristics of common workstations, simplifying measurements and comparisons."
17:16:20 <AnMaster> "The Quamachine also has special I/O devices that support digital music and audio signal processing: stereo 16-bit analog output, stereo 16-bit analog input, and a compact disc (CD) player digital interface."
17:17:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I guess early 80s.
17:17:22 <AnMaster> "The Sony NEWS 1860 is a commercially-available workstation with two 68030 processors. Its architecture is not symmetric. One processor is meant to be the main processor and the other is meant to be the I/O processor. Synthesis tries to treat it as if it were a symmetric multiprocessor, scheduling most tasks on either processor without preference, except those that require something that is accessible
17:17:22 <AnMaster> from one processor and not the other. While this is not a large number of processors, it nevertheless helps demonstrate Synthesis multiprocessor support. But for measurement purposes of this chapter, only one processor -- the slower I/O processor -- was used. (With the kernel's multiprocessor support kept intact.)"
17:17:47 <AnMaster> ehird, says 1992 on the front page
17:17:57 <ehird> "compact disc (CD)" in 1992?
17:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, in a computer it certainly wasn't common
17:18:40 <AnMaster> 'What do you mean a "change directory"?!"
17:18:43 <pikhq> Out of curiosity, is it specified what the frequency of its audio handling was?
17:19:12 <pikhq> 44.1 kHz 16-bit signed little-endian PCM, I'd *assume*...
17:19:19 <pikhq> But you never know with older systems. ;)
17:19:50 <AnMaster> http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/toc.html
17:22:00 <AnMaster> "The point is not to parade Synthesis speed nor justify the other's slowness. It is to point out that that speed is possible through careful thought and program structuring that provides just the right level of abstraction for each application. For example, one application that runs under Synthesis reads music data from the CD player, computes its Fourier transform (1024 point), and displays the resul
17:22:00 <AnMaster> t in a window, all in real-time. It displays 88200 data points per second. This is impossible to do today using any other single-processor workstation and operating system because the abstractions provided are too expensive and just plain wrong for this particular task. This is true even though the newer Sparc-based workstations from SUN are more than four times faster then the machine running Synthes
17:22:43 <AnMaster> "Worth noting is the cost of open. The simplest case, open /dev/null, takes 49 microseconds, of which about 70% are used to find the name in the directory structure and 30% for memory allocation and code synthesis to create the null read and write procedures. The additional 19 microseconds in opening /dev/tty come from generating more involved code to read and write the TTY device. Finally, opening a
17:22:43 <AnMaster> file requires synthesizing more sophisticated code and buffer allocations, costing 17 additional microseconds."
17:22:54 <ehird> 49 microseconds to open /dev/null.
17:23:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it was fast compared to mainstream then
17:23:46 <AnMaster> ehird, check "7.2.2 Comparing Window Systems"
17:24:09 <pikhq> ehird: That's 50 clock cycles, I think. :p
17:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: It cites GEB!
17:25:25 <AnMaster> "The simplification in applications programming that occurs using this scheduler cannot be overstated. One no longer needs to worry about assigning priorities to jobs, or of carefully crafting the inner loops so that everything is executed frequently enough. For example, in Synthesis, reading from the CD player is no different than reading from any other device or file. Simply open "/dev/cd" and read
17:25:25 <AnMaster> from it. To listen to the CD player, one could use the program in Figure 6.7. The scheduler FLL keeps the data flowing smoothly at the 44.1 KHz sampling rate -- 176 kilobytes per second for each channel -- regardless of how many CPU-intensive jobs might be executing in the background."
17:25:36 <AnMaster> it uses feedback based scheduler
17:25:44 <ehird> AnMaster: on the page
17:26:04 <ehird> http://valerieaurora.org/synthesis/SynthesisOS/ch7.html
17:26:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Somehow, I find it hard to find that impressive.
17:26:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, by today's standards yes
17:26:31 <ehird> AnMaster: grep Escher
17:27:24 <pikhq> Probably because right now I'm decoding an 823 kilobit stream with a 44.1 kHz sampling rate to 16-bit PCM, converting it to 48 kHz sampling rate, and handing it to ALSA. :p
17:27:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, could you do that on a CPU running at 25 MHz.
17:28:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, with none of the advanced pipelining and branch prediction and so on
17:28:10 * pikhq wonders what the clock speed is on his Sansa...
17:28:25 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was that orwell.freenode.net buggery. It might be up by now.
17:28:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't you use the round robin dns
17:29:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: fungot doesn't do DNS. :p
17:29:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Rockbox.
17:29:09 <ehird> It's an alternative OS for music players.
17:29:14 <ehird> Including the iPod, Rio Karma, ...
17:29:18 <ehird> It supports FLAC and stuff.
17:29:35 <AnMaster> anyway. It is not a general purpose OS.
17:29:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: I didn't want to depend on SCKE, so it takes an IP address as a parameter. (Although I ended up using SCKE anyway, for the currently-under-construction http support.)
17:29:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Doom was ported to Rockbox.
17:29:50 <ehird> It's general-purpose enough.
17:29:56 -!- fungot has joined.
17:30:05 <pikhq> It does multitasking, too.
17:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, that still doesn't make the device a general purpose computer though!
17:30:13 <fizzie> I'm hoping no-one is building any mission-critical systems on fungot's availability, anyway.
17:30:15 <fungot> fizzie: and you kill the nice man? call/ cc using only lambda. in general if you want thing to move half as far as i know,
17:30:15 <pikhq> And MPEG2 playing.
17:30:20 <ehird> AnMaster: They use ARM, I think.
17:30:37 <pikhq> Seems its clock speed goes from 24 to 80 MHz on-demand.
17:30:40 <ehird> And have screens, etc; some even coloured.
17:31:15 <pikhq> It's also got a GB emulator...
17:31:15 <AnMaster> still doesn't make it a general purpose device. And: Is it a full UNIX OS?
17:31:26 <pikhq> No, it's not a UNIX.
17:31:41 <pikhq> It's a different sort of general-purpose multitasking OS.
17:31:45 <AnMaster> which is what they are comparing Synthesis against there. SunOS 3 iirc
17:31:55 <ehird> Rockbox is a general purpose OS running on quite powerful general-purpose hardware with lots of I/O.
17:32:26 <AnMaster> and you have fast storage on an mp3 player
17:32:47 <ehird> It's just a flash drive.
17:32:57 <pikhq> ... Which is a moot point, since a CD drive is fast enough to play CDs. :p
17:33:40 <AnMaster> with or without buffering. As far as I understand it. Synthesis didn't buffer that audio much.
17:34:31 <pikhq> Well, it probably didn't have the RAM handy for large buffers.
17:35:06 <AnMaster> looking at the code it seems to have a 100 byte buffer.
17:36:31 <AnMaster> These programs can be connected together in a pipeline to perform more complex sound processing functions, in a similar way that text filters in Unix can be cascaded using the shell's "--" notation. <-- huh? Doesn't it mean |
17:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: typographical limitations.
17:48:39 <ehird> but -- is poor man's —
17:51:27 <fizzie> There's just the strange hybrid "hyphen-minus" dash in ASCII, none of the fancy ones.
17:51:45 -!- tombom has joined.
17:54:13 <ehird> what about that broken | char
17:54:16 <ehird> that's -- sideways :-P
17:54:20 <ehird> well, with a lil' ridge
17:56:30 <fizzie> Ah, the broken bar. That's still non-ascii, though. (But it is in latin-1, which is perhaps a bit unexpectadinous. It doesn't seem all that useful.)
17:56:50 -!- pikhq has quit ("Back in a flash").
17:57:10 <ehird> besides, "is — ASCII?" is silly
17:57:12 <ehird> because | is ascii
17:57:18 <ehird> so evidently if they can't type | they're not using ascii
17:57:22 <ehird> prolly a typewriter
17:58:05 <fizzie> Unicode name for | is a boring "VERTICAL LINE", while ¦ is the "BROKEN BAR".
17:59:10 <fizzie> Though Unicode naming is a bit stuffy anyway. They've opted to call / and \ the "solidus" and "reverse solidus" instead of slash/backslash.
18:01:49 <fizzie> "slash" was the name in Unicode 1.0. I wonder what sort of committee discussions there were when they decided to rename it to solidus. (That gucharmap tool also lists "slash" and "virgule" as aliases, but I'm not sure where it's getting those from.)
18:02:20 <fizzie> "How do I send commands to my IRC client? Just type a VIRGULE in front of the command."
18:03:15 <ehird> http colon virgule virgule virgulefullstop full stop org
18:04:29 <fizzie> http two-spot change change changespot spot org.
18:04:34 <fizzie> To use the INTERCAL names.
18:05:38 <fizzie> At least according to first google-hit e2 page; I'm not quite sure about the reliability there.
18:06:08 <ehird> fizzie: e2's like 10x more infallable than wikipedia because it's just from one reliable source
18:06:48 <fizzie> slat, says the manual. Though the e2 page lists / twice.
18:12:20 <fizzie> Right, "change" is the "c overstrike /" thing, they've just mangled the e2 page. Well, that makes more sense anyway. (Though one has to wonder why a slat and not a spike, since ¢ has a vertical line in it.) Still, even "http two-spot slat slat slatspot spot org" has certain charm.
18:12:21 <ehird> Pros: very fast cpu
18:12:21 <ehird> Cons: price and the company who makes it
18:12:22 <ehird> Other Thoughts: stop and think seriously think about where intel gets their new technology from............... AMD. Intergrated memory controller and 64 bit technology both comes from AMD so for those who bash said company well your r-tarded. AMD holds the patents on the new Technology Intel uses and intel is trying to cancel AMD's right to make x86 cpu's so that means AMD pulls those rights from Intel so all of you who jumped aboard the i7 boat will sin
18:12:27 <ehird> k because no one will support updates so good luck
18:12:42 <ehird> fizzie: cent is c/ in some typographical contexts
18:12:45 <ehird> c| is quite modern i think
18:12:54 <ehird> also, slatspot is sort of like a spoonerism of slashdot
18:12:59 <fizzie> Can be; I'm quite modern, I wouldn't know.
18:13:31 <fizzie> "-- the cent sign, a lower-case letter c pierced top to bottom by a forward slash or a vertical line --"
18:13:51 <ehird> the i7 975 will have 1mb of l2
18:14:03 <ehird> ...130 watts though...
18:14:16 <ehird> it seems the 1MB thing was lying
18:14:19 <ehird> they're multiplying it by cores
18:14:20 <ehird> since it's per-core
18:14:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:24:59 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
18:26:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:39:16 <ehird> GregorR: It's 256KB *per each core*.
18:39:37 <ehird> GregorR: And there's an 8MB L3 cache.
18:39:41 <ehird> (shared between all cores)
18:40:33 <GregorR> Bleh, the inconsistent labeling of L2 and L3 confuses me ...
18:40:43 <ehird> Well, the L3 cache is shared and the L2 isn't.
18:40:45 <ehird> Big difference :-P
18:41:58 <GregorR> Core 2 Quad has (IIRC) a 4MB cache, which is divided into two 2MB caches each of which are shared between two cores, or something like that..
18:42:29 <ehird> the yorkfield xe has 2 x 6MB L2s
18:42:46 <ehird> rather confuzzling
18:43:03 <GregorR> Well, it's something like that.
18:43:17 <GregorR> Anyway, the point is that 256KB/core L2 seems awfully low for Intel.
18:43:51 <ehird> It is a lot smaller than in recent times.
18:43:58 <ehird> GregorR: but the L2 is faster
18:44:01 <ehird> and you have the L3 too
18:44:07 <ehird> so it's just shifting the boundaries a bit
18:44:25 <GregorR> Yeah, but having an L3 shared amongst more cores is stupid, the whole problem is that shared memory doesn't scale :P
18:44:58 <ehird> It also leads to a security vulnerability, but Nehalem is worth it ;-)
18:45:18 <ehird> Yummy integrated memory controller... Yummy DDR3...
18:47:48 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
18:48:20 <oerjan> ic, it must be just this nvg machine
18:48:40 <oerjan> or possibly the old perl version
18:49:18 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
18:49:42 <GregorR> (Codu runs Debian Testing)
18:49:44 <oerjan> i'll make a file twice the size and retest, just in case
18:50:23 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
18:50:25 <EgoBot> Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19081 line 10, <> line 516.
18:51:30 <oerjan> ok a different error (not segmentation fault), but still annoying
18:54:11 <oerjan> so how does one optimize (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) further :(
18:55:52 <ehird> oerjan: don't use regexs?
18:56:56 <oerjan> well that _should_ be a finite automaton needing no recursion
18:58:29 <asiekierka> You know, I wonder what esolang to create
18:58:34 <ehird> wow, the 975 will only cost $999
18:58:45 <asiekierka> as in, you know, mixing colors and stuff
18:59:23 <asiekierka> add (R/G/B/W/K) x% - adds X % of the color to the brush
19:00:12 <asiekierka> set COLOR x , output brush, get brush...
19:01:13 <asiekierka> while BRUSH( (R(ed)/G(reen)/B(lue)/A(ll)) ) = x then...
19:01:30 <asiekierka> So I have an equalivment of [], +/-, , and .
19:01:35 <asiekierka> but sadly I don't have infinite memory
19:02:49 <asiekierka> water - waters the brush, I.E. clears it
19:07:31 <asiekierka> oh, and not watering the brush after finishing is an error
19:08:57 <fizzie> !perl print $^V, "\n";
19:09:20 <asiekierka> what do you think of this esolang I CAN POSSIBLY IMPLEMENT
19:10:46 <asiekierka> and yes, the output can be represented as colors
19:21:28 <AnMaster> <oerjan> so how does one optimize (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) further :( <-- how did you end up with that one
19:21:59 <AnMaster> there is too much escaped stuff for me to be able to parse it without more work that I'm willing to spend on it.
19:25:54 <fizzie> It matches /foo/bar/ where both foo and bar are sequences of either something else than / or \, or \ followed by any character.
19:26:23 <fizzie> So basically it removes a ///-language expression from the start of the string, and sets $1 and $2 to the two parts of it.
19:29:42 <fizzie> I'm not sure how optimizable it is, although you can (a) clarify it a bit with something like $body = qr{(?:[^/\\]|\\.)*}s after which you can write it as s!^/($body)/($body)/!!... or (b) obfuscate it a bit by referring to the first parenthesized subexpression in the other with something like s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?1))/!!s.
19:30:08 <fizzie> Because regular expressions are awesome, of course.
19:30:36 <AnMaster> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think ``I know, I'll use regular expressions.'' Now they have two problems. -- jwz
19:31:28 <fizzie> That particular one is not such a terrible abuse, though.
19:32:13 <ehird> Some people, when confronted with a joke, think ``I know, I'll use that Jamie Zawinski quote.'' Now they have a douchebag problem. -- jwz
19:32:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, that jwz quote was actually in the description for http://www.jwz.org/hacks/gdb-highlight.el (not found in that file, but in http://www.jwz.org/hacks/marginal.html)
19:33:02 <fizzie> And anyway awesome is what they are. It's like a finite state machine cleverly disguised as a one line of curious scratches.
19:33:40 * AnMaster writes down that line for future quoting
19:34:57 <AnMaster> and yes, regex are awesome, as a DSL for searching text, or doing non-trivial (but still not complex) text replacements.
19:34:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wrote the /// interpreter in perl, of _course_ i used regexes
19:35:08 <AnMaster> Plus, doing a regex across two lines tends to be a PITA
19:35:38 <oerjan> that's what that s at the end is for
19:36:03 <fizzie> The "how to optimize" question strongly depends on what you're optimizing; character count or clarity or what.
19:36:29 <AnMaster> what if I want to grep for "while(\*p) p\+=[0-9]+;\nwhile(\*p) p\+=[0-9]+;", something I wanted to do recently
19:36:54 <AnMaster> a grep limitation rather than regex limitation of course
19:37:08 <AnMaster> but a lot of the tools with regex are line based.
19:37:26 <oerjan> fizzie: erm, i'm trying to optimize its ability not to crash on >= 50000 byte strings :D
19:38:32 <fizzie> Oh. I wouldn't have thought that particular one would be very trying for the regex-exxxecutor.
19:39:05 <fizzie> Depends on how exxxxxtreme you are.
19:39:12 <ehird> fizzie, have an eggscellent day!
19:39:13 <tombom> it represents your computer's temperature
19:39:19 <ehird> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtreme
19:39:27 <ehird> Pronounced: chhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhstreme
19:39:29 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
19:39:34 <EgoBot> Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19351 line 10, <> line 516.
19:39:38 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's Xtreme.
19:39:47 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=xtreme&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
19:39:52 <AnMaster> regex are in general not very efficient.
19:40:01 <ehird> Pronounced buchsworch, where ch is like Bach.
19:40:38 <AnMaster> that google's code search does allow regex is strange.
19:40:48 <ehird> you mean FUCKING AWESOME.
19:40:56 <ehird> besides, they aren't full regexps, are they?
19:41:06 <ehird> no more powerful than google's (x OR y) OR z
19:41:10 <oerjan> and this nvg machine gave a different crash (Segmentation fault)
19:41:19 <AnMaster> "Google Code Search supports POSIX extended regular expression syntax, excluding backreferences, collating elements, and collation classes. [...]"
19:41:32 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/faq_codesearch.html#regexp
19:41:40 <ehird> Well, I don't know, maybe they just throw three machines at it every time you search. It can't be too popular of a search engine.
19:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, load would be very small compared to the load of normal google
19:42:17 <ehird> Have an eggcellent day!
19:42:25 <ehird> If it's Xtreme, feel good!
19:42:37 <AnMaster> "We also support the following Perl extensions: [list removed to not spam]"
19:42:42 <oerjan> let me try that ?> thing
19:43:39 <ehird> oerjan: rewrite it in haskell with PURITY
19:44:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, is there no other implementation of /// ?
19:44:20 <ehird> oerjan: Fine, I will.
19:44:25 <ehird> You're making me code.
19:44:33 <ehird> oerjan: HAPPY NOW‽‽‽
19:44:35 <AnMaster> ehird, Since you mention it....
19:44:52 <ehird> AND YOU WILL BE FORCED TO USE MY IMPLEMENTBWAHAHAHAH
19:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what happened with that befunge interpreter in haskell you were working on
19:44:56 <oerjan> no, because to usefully _use_ it i'll have to finally install ghc... :D
19:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:45:06 <ehird> oerjan: just grab a binary
19:45:24 <AnMaster> ehird, are you still working on it?
19:45:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Dormantly.
19:45:35 <ehird> oerjan: on unix, installing the binary is just "make install". on Windows, I think they have a fancy installer
19:46:17 <fizzie> I'm guessing it fails when it's trying to extend that (?:[^/\\]|\\.) pattern modified with *, since there's a lot of possibilities-except-not-really for backtracking there. You might actually try something like (?:(?>[^/\\]*)|\\.)* -- at least that should match long strings of non-escaped characters as a single blorb.
19:46:51 <fizzie> Though that's just a minor help, I'm guessing any reasonable /// program has quite a lot of escaped stuff in it.
19:47:10 <oerjan> er i just tried (?>[^/\\]*|\\.)*
19:47:25 <fizzie> Yes, but that's different.
19:47:32 <ehird> What's the defined behaviour of
19:47:37 <fizzie> I'm not sure how different, though.
19:48:03 <oerjan> fizzie: oh, and long strings of non-escaped characters are useful for what i'm currently doing
19:48:26 <ehird> If it's a /, characters are taken up to the next /
19:48:29 <oerjan> how the heck did i mistype that
19:49:01 <oerjan> ehird: don't know but my interpreter just gives up then
19:49:06 <ehird> yeah, so will mine
19:49:37 <oerjan> fizzie: er, i miscopied you
19:49:55 <oerjan> i'm trying (s!^/((?>[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?>[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s)
19:50:00 <oerjan> and that didn't help here
19:50:22 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
19:50:36 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
19:50:39 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
19:50:39 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
19:50:48 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg
19:50:49 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
19:50:50 <EgoBot> Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.19509 line 16, <> line 516.
19:51:17 <fizzie> I don't think it should help in that case, since it's just matching that single character as an independent blorb. But I guess my version won't necessarily help either.
19:51:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it work when run on your own computer
19:52:22 <oerjan> i don't have perl there
19:52:40 <AnMaster> what sort of computer doesn't have perl these days...
19:52:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Anyway, there are experimental-and-subject-to-change "Special Backtracking Control Verbs" in (at least) 5.10; if you write (*PRUNE) somewhere it should clear the backtracking tree at that point; I'm not sure if it helps with that recursion limit, though. And I don't know if that's in 5.8.
19:52:58 <ehird> he also uses IE, just so you can get more riled up
19:53:01 <AnMaster> activestate perl sounds familiar for windows
19:54:02 <ehird> (dest,xs'') = toSlash xs''
19:54:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure I remember oerjan using ubuntu for a while? Or was it oklopol
19:54:38 <ehird> oerjan: the example program,
19:54:43 <ehird> how does execution go there?
19:54:50 <ehird> replace foo\n with foo
19:55:13 <ehird> "If it's not / or \, it's printed."
19:55:15 <ehird> it's then removed, right?
19:55:20 <AnMaster> the only way I can see that working is with newlines being stripped
19:55:29 <AnMaster> but I must be wrong about that
19:55:30 <oerjan> first it prints a newline
19:55:32 * ehird tries the / world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world! program anyway
19:55:37 <ehird> simpler to understand
19:55:45 <ehird> *Main> run "/ world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world!"
19:55:45 <ehird> (" world! world!","Hello,"," world! world! world!")
19:55:48 -!- M0ny has joined.
19:55:51 <ehird> easy peasy lemon squeezey
19:56:06 <ehird> it isn't executing
19:56:12 <ehird> it's just print-debugging
19:56:13 <oerjan> !slashes / world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world!
19:56:21 <ehird> let (source,xs') = toSlash xs
19:56:22 <ehird> (dest,xs'') = toSlash xs'
19:56:23 <ehird> in print (source,dest,xs'')
19:56:27 <ehird> parsing, pretty much
19:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what bit in that handles the \
19:56:49 <oerjan> ehird: also can you make your interp more efficient by not backtracking all the way after a match?
19:57:02 <ehird> AnMaster: toSlash, and also run
19:57:06 <oerjan> the perl one obviously redoes the whole string
19:57:13 <ehird> oerjan: isn't that required?
19:57:25 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:57:29 <oerjan> ehird: i mean by not going further than necessary
19:57:34 -!- tombom_2 has joined.
19:58:15 <oerjan> say, /foo/o/abcdeffffoooooo
19:58:29 <oerjan> you can throw away everything up to the e
19:58:40 <ehird> oerjan: throw away is a bit strong
19:58:42 <ehird> it needs to be output
19:58:55 <ehird> oerjan: what about
19:59:02 <oerjan> and after the first match you don't need to go back to the very first f
19:59:03 <ehird> /foo/o//bar/quux/foo
19:59:08 <ehird> it gets a bit hairy
19:59:13 <AnMaster> /throw away/put in the already done list/throw away
20:00:03 <ehird> oerjan: but, /bar/quuux/o isn't rewinding
20:00:06 <ehird> it's the bad case you said
20:00:10 <ehird> oerjan: so, check for / and don't do it?
20:00:14 <ehird> that sounds like a hack
20:00:21 <ehird> if you give some more precise semantics it's done
20:00:33 <oerjan> ehird: i've pondered it a bit and doing it perfectly may be awkward
20:01:01 <oerjan> but you can (1) check initial characters (2) not backtrack more than the length of the matched string
20:01:04 <ehird> oerjan: how about "output-with-escapes and throw away everything up to either: the first unescaped / or the term we're looking for"
20:01:07 <AnMaster> thought I had !slashes in front not <ehird>
20:01:36 <oerjan> ehird: you cannot output until you are sure the match doesn't cause an infinite loop
20:01:47 <ehird> oerjan: this sounds more and more ugly
20:01:53 <AnMaster> still doesn't explain the multiline example that ehird pasted
20:02:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: let's use space instead of newline
20:02:45 <oerjan> output ' ' -> /foo /foo/bar
20:02:45 <ehird> there's no "foo " in the program
20:02:47 <fizzie> oerjan: You don't have to backtrack in the Perl interpreter either: you can use pos($str) = x; to set the position where \G matches, and then nail your replacing regular expression with that. (Although the savings there might be more than offset by the overhead of having to "replace" everything from the \G point with itself.)
20:03:02 <ehird> so it's a silly example :P
20:04:13 <ehird> oerjan: i'll implement without
20:04:19 <ehird> that's just the expressive power of HASKOLI
20:04:34 <ehird> !slashes foo/foo/bar/foo
20:04:55 <pikhq> GregorR: You know how you were wanting C++->C compilation? llvm can do it.
20:05:05 <pikhq> llvm has a GCC frontend, and it can target C.
20:05:43 <AnMaster> wow that was fun. Making oerjan say "eek"
20:06:19 <pikhq> The resulting C code when compiled won't fully comply with the C++ ABI, but it's otherwise correct.
20:06:25 <oerjan> the last one prints b\ar here
20:06:51 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> !slashes /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo <oerjan> the last one prints b\ar here <-- what? There are way more \ than that
20:06:52 <oerjan> /foo/b\\\\\\ar/foo -> b\\\ar
20:07:44 <oerjan> clearly egobot does some unescaping of its own
20:09:03 <oerjan> the interpreter gives up if the code ends with an incomplete command such as \
20:09:44 <AnMaster> !slashes /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/b\\\/a\\\/r/foo
20:10:03 -!- tombom_2 has left (?).
20:10:08 -!- tombom_2 has joined.
20:10:15 <AnMaster> !slashes /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/bar/foo
20:10:25 <oerjan> assuming EgoBot decodes that to /a/A/b/B/r/R/foo/b\/a\/r/foo
20:10:35 <oerjan> before sending it to ///
20:10:45 <AnMaster> !slashes /a/A//b/B//r/R/foo/bar/foo
20:11:12 <AnMaster> !slashes /a/A//b/B//r/R//foo/bar/foo
20:11:24 <ehird> oerjan: I almost have a working slashes
20:11:28 <ehird> with only one butt-ugly function!
20:12:22 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcdef"
20:12:34 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcxxx"
20:12:49 <oerjan> for a certain value of "almost"
20:12:56 * ehird attempts to clear head
20:13:05 * ehird cuts out replace function, writes better one
20:14:08 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
20:14:55 <ehird> oerjan: the basic problem is that "replace the first instance of this with this or do nothing if there isn't one" is not an intuitive operation
20:15:41 <oerjan> anyway i have an idea that you might use a zipper
20:16:06 <oerjan> as in, pass the characters already checked in reverse
20:16:25 <oerjan> easy to backtrack a short length then
20:17:18 <Deewiant> replace _ _ [] = []; r what with s@(x:xs) = let (a,b) = splitAt (length what) s in if a == what then with ++ b else x : replace what with xs
20:17:21 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abcdef"
20:17:22 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "aaabcdef"
20:17:26 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" ""
20:17:34 <ehird> replace :: String -> String -> String -> String
20:17:36 <ehird> replace [] r ys = r ++ ys
20:17:38 <ehird> replace _ _ [] = []
20:17:40 <ehird> replace s@(x:xs) r (y:ys)
20:17:42 <ehird> | x == y = replace xs r ys
20:17:44 <ehird> | otherwise = replace s r ys
20:17:51 <Deewiant> ehird: otherwise = y : replace s r ys
20:18:08 <ehird> Deewiant: it also doesn't handle this
20:18:16 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abx"
20:18:21 <ehird> i knew it couldn't be so trivial
20:18:28 <Deewiant> Shouldn't that otherwise handle it
20:18:40 <ehird> Deewiant: no, read it; it chops off the first two chars which do match
20:18:45 <ehird> but then the last one doesn't match, oshi-
20:18:47 <ehird> and is yours efficient?
20:18:55 <Deewiant> No, you should precompute length what
20:19:11 <Deewiant> Other than that; efficient enough.
20:20:46 <Deewiant> Alternatively, if what could be infinite, do something like; replace what with s@(x:xs) = if what `isPrefixOf` s then with ++ drop (length what) s else x : replace what with xs
20:21:22 <oerjan> erm if what could be infinite isPrefixOf is not going to finish
20:21:51 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" "def" "abxabcdef"
20:22:00 <Deewiant> repeat 1 `isPrefixOf` [] --> False
20:22:18 <ehird> *Main> run "/ world! world!/Hello,/ world! world! world!"
20:22:18 <ehird> Hello, world!*Main>
20:22:37 <ehird> Now, oerjan, I will run 99bob, then your simpler counter.
20:22:41 <ehird> Then, I will implement your efficiency thing.
20:23:16 <ehird> oerjan: Epic unsuccess.
20:23:32 <ehird> oerjan: You CAN replace inside future ///s, right?
20:23:39 <ehird> 99 bottles of beer on the wall,
20:23:41 <ehird> 99 bottles of beer
20:23:43 <ehird> Take one down, pass it around
20:23:45 <ehird> 98 bottles of beer on the wall.
20:23:47 <ehird> 98#98$97%97#97$96%96#96$95%95#95$94%94#94$93%93#93$92%92#92$91%91#91$90%90#90$89%89#89$88%88#88$87%87#87]
20:24:15 <oerjan> you are not redoing the replacement after success...
20:24:25 <ehird> Yes, yes that would be it.
20:25:16 <ehird> findFixPoint :: (Eq a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a
20:25:20 <ehird> | otherwise = findFixPoint f x'
20:25:32 <ehird> It wooooooooooooooooooooooooorks!
20:25:38 <oerjan> not very efficient though
20:25:55 <ehird> oerjan: it outputs all at once; I wonder why?
20:26:00 <oerjan> that findFixPoint will check all through
20:26:18 <Deewiant> findFixPoint = until =<< ap (==)
20:26:25 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm no obfuscator
20:26:52 <Deewiant> findFixPoint f = until (ap (==) f) f
20:26:59 <ehird> oerjan: does the 99bob program output all at once?
20:26:59 <Deewiant> findFixPoint f = until (\x -> x == f x) f
20:27:18 <oerjan> hm more or less i should think
20:27:29 <oerjan> it would do all the substitutions early
20:28:00 <ehird> oerjan: same with thue-morse?
20:28:08 <oerjan> ehird: that findFixPoint is going to be inefficient as the changes come later and later in the string
20:28:14 <Deewiant> findFixPoint f = fmap snd . find (uncurry (==)) . (zip `ap` tail) . iterate f
20:28:21 <ehird> oerjan: but that's just your optimization; I can fix that later.
20:28:30 <ehird> and what, oerjan, about infinite loops?
20:28:36 <ehird> oh, you can just check if dest contains source
20:28:44 <ehird> oerjan: take, for example
20:29:15 <oerjan> i was wondering if you could have an infinite loop without strict containment
20:29:15 <ehird> oerjan: /axx/ax/aaxxx → aaxx
20:29:21 <ehird> your don't-backtrack doesn't handle that
20:29:31 <ehird> also, do these examples have newlines at the end?
20:29:40 <ehird> oerjan: they handle → aaxx
20:29:42 <ehird> but then don't backtrack
20:29:45 <oerjan> i didn't say you _shouldn't_ backtrack
20:29:45 <ehird> and so mixx the extra axx replacement
20:29:46 <Deewiant> You can backtrack a limited amount
20:29:55 <Deewiant> You don't need to backtrack all the way, though
20:29:57 <oerjan> i said you shouldn't backtrack all the way
20:30:02 <ehird> oerjan: your counter works
20:30:12 <ehird> oerjan: it gets slower every time, of course
20:30:20 <ehird> oerjan: do you mean:
20:30:25 <ehird> only backtrack to the start of the replacement?
20:30:46 <oerjan> backtrack to start of replacement - length of replaced string
20:31:19 <ehird> oerjan: er minus length of replaced string?
20:31:25 <ehird> so if you start replacing at 5, and replace with a 3 char string
20:31:25 <oerjan> and that can backtrack further if there is a match there
20:31:51 <oerjan> the string that is replaced from
20:32:59 <ehird> *Main> run "/abc/cdefg/ababcde/"
20:32:59 <ehird> cdefgdefgde*** Exception: slashes.hs:(31,0)-(33,23): Non-exhaustive patterns in function toSlash
20:33:01 <ehird> nice typo handling
20:33:16 <oerjan> -> abcdefgde -> cdefgdefgde
20:33:36 <ehird> toSlash [] = error "OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE"
20:33:41 <oerjan> abc has length 3, so you only need to go back 3-1
20:34:02 <ehird> toSlash :: String -> (String,String)
20:34:03 <ehird> toSlash [] = error "OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE"
20:34:06 <ehird> toSlash ('/':xs) = ("",xs)
20:34:08 <ehird> toSlash ('\\':x:xs) = is x xs -- curses! foiled again!
20:34:10 <ehird> toSlash (x:xs) = is x xs
20:34:12 <ehird> i see no inexhaustive patterns
20:35:01 <ehird> I saved to the wrong place
20:35:16 <ehird> i was wondering why it accepted my invalid syntax too
20:36:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:36:18 <ehird> oerjan: okay, so here's the rule
20:36:38 <oerjan> for further tests, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter{1,3,4}.sss
20:36:41 <ehird> After making a replacement, backtrack to position start_of_replacement - length_of_replacement
20:36:49 <oerjan> (2 is the simple one you already tried)
20:37:09 <oerjan> ehird: terminology confusion
20:37:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:37:22 <oerjan> what do you call the first and second arguments of /// ?
20:37:30 <ehird> Source, replacement.
20:37:45 <Sgeo> Quick Linux question: If I make /home unwritable and owned by root, does that make it as secure as a LiveCD
20:38:23 <ehird> After making a replacement, backtrack to position start_of_where_replacement_begins_in_string - length_of_replacement_used
20:38:37 <oerjan> nope, length_of_source_used
20:39:18 <ehird> ok, need to mod replace to tell me where the replacement begins :-P
20:39:27 <oerjan> !slashes /abc/cde/ababababcde
20:39:28 <ehird> I'll just make it return (beforeReplacement,afterAndIncludingReplacement)
20:39:59 <Sgeo> ehird, how so?
20:40:28 <Sgeo> Is it at least close enough?
20:40:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: What you do to make it as secure as a LiveCD is to make your entire filesystem read-only and unioned with a RAM filesystem.
20:40:33 <oerjan> ehird: i repeat my suggestion to use a zipper
20:40:35 <ehird> Sgeo: what are you trying to do
20:40:44 <ehird> oerjan: I've never understood 'em.
20:40:46 <oerjan> (reverse of previous, remainder)
20:41:17 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" 3 "def" "xxabc"
20:41:28 <Sgeo> ehird, have a secure OS that I can use when I need to do something with sensitive information
20:41:30 <oerjan> ehird: let's say you've done the first match of that /abc/cde/ababababcde
20:41:42 <ehird> Sgeo: you're 20, why are you handling FBI documents?
20:41:53 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm handling my social security number
20:41:56 <oerjan> then your zipper state is then ("bababa", "cdede")
20:42:04 <ehird> Sgeo: encrypt it with GPG, put it in ~.
20:42:16 <ehird> Sgeo: also, you think that thing's secure?
20:42:21 <ehird> err, you give it to like a thousand businesses
20:42:46 <Sgeo> Better that than 1000 businesses and one hacker
20:42:57 <ehird> what's the hacker going to do
20:42:58 <pikhq> ehird: You're only legally mandated to give it to, lessee...
20:43:03 <ehird> give it to ANOTHER BUSINESS?!
20:43:05 <pikhq> The IRS, your employer... I think that's it.
20:43:11 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, but in practice...
20:43:15 <pikhq> Maybe some other government agency that I'm forgetting.
20:43:19 <ehird> also, your employer is still a huge leak
20:43:33 <pikhq> ehird, in every other instance, you can give out a fake one with no repercussions.
20:43:47 <Sgeo> I already gave the college my real one
20:44:08 <ehird> pikhq: OTOH, not many people do.
20:45:02 <ehird> argh, why isn't thsi code working
20:45:04 <ehird> is it because it hates me
20:45:06 -!- tombom_2 has left (?).
20:45:51 * AnMaster wonders why erlang think doing Node#bfn.extra#bfe_loop.input is a syntax error before the second #
20:46:32 * pikhq recommends 666-69-0666
20:46:41 <oerjan> ehird: oh i just realized something
20:47:10 <oerjan> each of which are an incomplete program which does nothing
20:47:18 <Sgeo> pikhq, if we ever go to the same college, and I end up using that..
20:47:29 <ehird> Sgeo: THEN THE WORLD WILL EXPLOOOOOOOOOOOOOODE!!
20:47:37 <ehird> ((And turned into an adult-only area.))
20:47:47 <ehird> ((Where you will have to give proof of your adulthood. Or shut down your store!))
20:47:54 <Sgeo> I'm just thinking it could cause problems for the college
20:48:00 <Sgeo> otoh, that could be fun
20:48:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Better still, ask them which law requires that you give them your SSN.
20:48:20 <pikhq> Also, there are a few cases where two people have been assigned the same SSN.
20:48:34 <ehird> Wonder what Dubya's SSN is.
20:48:44 <Sgeo> ....I only have 9GB free?
20:50:24 <oerjan> /abc/bcab/aabcc -> abcabc -> bcababc -> bcabbcab
20:50:36 * ehird reads his replace function v e r y c a r e f u l l y
20:50:44 <pikhq> ehird: Dunno, but I know Nixon's. 567-68-0515.
20:53:58 <ehird> Deewiant: your function broke catastrophically when i modded it :<
20:54:07 <ehird> replace :: String -> Int -> String -> String -> (String,String)
20:54:07 <ehird> replace _ _ _ "" = ("","")
20:54:08 <ehird> replace src srcLen dest s@(x:xs) =
20:54:10 <ehird> let (before,after) = splitAt srcLen s
20:54:12 <ehird> in if before == src
20:54:14 <ehird> then ("",dest ++ after)
20:54:16 <ehird> else let (before',after') = replace src srcLen dest after
20:54:18 <ehird> in (x:before',after')
20:54:20 <ehird> i can't see the flaw! :)
20:54:46 <Sgeo> WoG is a bit less enjoyable perhaps after seeing most of the solutions
20:54:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't call replace with after, call it with xs
20:55:03 <ehird> ... didn't you do that Deewiant?
20:55:20 <ehird> Works now ^_____________________^;;;;;;;;;
20:55:32 <ehird> *Main> replace "abc" 3 "def" "xabc"
20:55:37 <Deewiant> Otherwise /abc/foo/aabc wouldn't work, for instance.
20:55:37 <ehird> so we backtrack to |def, right?
20:57:57 <ehird> *Main> doReplacements "abc" "def" "aaabcxxabcxxdefabc"
20:57:57 <ehird> "aadefxxdefxxdefdef"
20:58:15 <ehird> oerjan: link to latest counter?
20:58:18 <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss?
20:58:31 <oerjan> counter4.sss is the latest
20:58:45 <ehird> oerjan: ... but not the most practical, it seems
20:59:01 <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss
20:59:04 <ehird> /Only / and \ from this point on/
20:59:08 <ehird> there's spaces and |
20:59:17 <oerjan> after the substitutions prior to that point
20:59:48 <ehird> oerjan: Congrats; your program now runs in... well, it's not constant time; it increases each time to the increased length of string to scan. But it's a lot less of an increase.
21:00:01 <ehird> oerjan: What buffering does your interp use? Regular line-based buffering?
21:00:11 <ehird> That's what I'm doing atm.
21:00:11 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:00:25 <oerjan> actually i put it on character buffering recently for debugging
21:00:40 <ehird> Which would you suggest? Since it's now infallably perfect.
21:00:49 <oerjan> (every print statement that means)
21:01:14 <oerjan> it would be nice for it to work with output that contains no newlines, and is infinite
21:01:23 <oerjan> (See that counter4.sss)
21:01:53 <oerjan> also, for infallably perfect please try http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss which is what made perl crash in the first place
21:01:58 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes < counter3.sss > f
21:02:01 <ehird> ./slashes < counter3.sss > f 1.25s user 0.03s system 99% cpu 1.284 total
21:02:03 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f
21:02:23 <ehird> The first 100 or so lines swim past immediately on the terminal, too.
21:02:24 <oerjan> counter3.sss is about as efficient as counter2.sss, just a minor variation
21:02:42 <ehird> Also, infinite output with no newlines; roger that.
21:03:11 <oerjan> ehird: what happens with the bct.sss ?
21:03:35 <ehird> first tell me the expected output
21:03:43 <oerjan> it crashed on me before i got to check if it's any good
21:04:18 <oerjan> \//\/\ endlessly repeated, i think is what i intended
21:05:27 <oerjan> it's supposed to check the program looping of the 100101 program (no data handling yet)
21:06:31 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes counter3.sss > f
21:06:32 <ehird> ./slashes counter3.sss > f 0.49s user 0.54s system 99% cpu 1.034 total
21:06:34 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f
21:06:37 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
21:06:38 <ehird> bit of a regression
21:06:45 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % time ./slashes counter3.sss > f
21:06:47 <ehird> ./slashes counter3.sss > f 2.41s user 3.09s system 99% cpu 5.506 total
21:06:49 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % wc -l f
21:06:49 <oerjan> the previous test was that counter4.sss, which only showed that the er, _slashes_ program looping worked
21:06:59 <ehird> oerjan: the regression is due to outputting lots and lots of *s individually
21:07:00 <oerjan> (as opposed to the BCT program)
21:07:11 <ehird> oerjan: doesn't matter though does it
21:07:14 <ehird> it's still wicked fast
21:07:26 <ehird> % ./slashes bct.sss
21:07:51 <ehird> oerjan: how did you add it to ze egobots?
21:08:16 <oerjan> with !addinterp slashes perl http://...
21:08:23 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:08:23 <oerjan> unfortunately there is no haskell in it
21:08:41 <ehird> GregorR: sudo apt-get install ghc on EgoBot, please.
21:08:45 <ehird> I'll be adding a new interpifoo.
21:08:47 <oerjan> ehird: well, at least it didn't crash at the same point for you
21:08:53 <oerjan> you actually got input
21:08:55 <ehird> GregorR: how do I add a compiled interp btw
21:09:03 <ehird> and it doesn't crash
21:09:18 <ehird> total lines: 54, includign whitespace and comments (all one of them takes its own line)
21:09:24 <ehird> well, plus the 3 line header
21:09:37 <oerjan> in fact it's the correct output for the first iteration
21:09:41 <ehird> % ./slashes slashes
21:09:42 <ehird> $?8__PAGEZERO?__TEXT??__text__TEXT@#??
21:09:57 <ehird> % ./slashes slashes.hs
21:09:57 <ehird> -- An interpreter for the
21:10:34 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss
21:10:36 <ehird> oerjan: yay, it uses constant memory on ///
21:10:54 <ehird> % ./slashes counter4.sss
21:10:54 <ehird> \/\\/\\\/\\\\/\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\
21:11:01 <ehird> it's a lot slower than counter3
21:11:08 <oerjan> EgoBot doesn't handle output without newlines :(
21:11:17 <ehird> although it gets faster as it goes on; or rather it doesn't, but it seems like it does, because of its outputting a lot of \s in succession
21:11:40 <oerjan> yes, the /\ only coding is much more verbose
21:11:48 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes
21:11:48 <ehird> slashes: No filename specified.
21:11:50 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes /dev/stdin
21:11:54 <ehird> slashes: OHGAHGHGHAGH WHAT DOES IT MEAN!! AN ARMY OF SNEEZING WANGS STALKS MY NIGHTMARE
21:11:57 <ehird> The best error reporting system, methinks.
21:12:24 <oerjan> that may not be strictly according to spec, but who cares
21:12:46 <ehird> there is no program with unmatched /s
21:12:53 <ehird> "If it's a /, characters are taken up to the next /"
21:12:54 <oerjan> "The program ends when there is no longer enough of it to execute, e.g.:"
21:13:07 <oerjan> and then the three examples
21:13:08 <ehird> oerjan: i don't think that's a valid interpretation :P
21:13:31 <ehird> oerjan: the program \ outputs a \ for me
21:13:35 <ehird> do you think that's right :P
21:14:26 <ehird> oerjan: I think that an unmatched // is invalid, though.
21:14:30 <ehird> run "\\" = return ()
21:14:44 <ehird> % ./slashes fibonacci.sss
21:14:44 <ehird> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************
21:15:19 <ehird> thuemorse takes from 0.012-0.016
21:15:54 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:16:03 <ehird> oerjan: i got a hang after the first * on counter1.sss, but another line came and I realised it was just dog slow
21:16:09 <ehird> less than 1 line/sec
21:16:32 <AnMaster> I want to see that epic program
21:16:38 <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter1.sss
21:16:40 <ehird> it's not very epic
21:16:47 <ehird> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss current sane version
21:17:02 <ehird> your interp is faster than mine on counter1
21:17:10 <AnMaster> why are you using \ so much btw
21:17:29 <ehird> oerjan: why is it faster?
21:17:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter1.sss for example
21:17:39 <ehird> my algorithms are better, haskell is faster than perl, I used your optimization...
21:17:46 <AnMaster> or in http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
21:17:54 <oerjan> but perl has heavily optimized regexes
21:18:04 <Deewiant> ehird: "Haskell is faster than Perl"?
21:18:04 <oerjan> which is what my interpreter uses most
21:18:11 <ehird> Deewiant: GHC is,.
21:18:20 <oerjan> unfortunately they break on the large programs :(
21:18:21 <Deewiant> If you're doing string processing, I'm not at all surprised that Perl + arrays beats GHC + linked lists
21:18:21 <ehird> oerjan: right, but there's not much more to optimize than my code.
21:18:25 <AnMaster> depends on what exactly you are doing I guess
21:18:32 <ehird> Deewiant: The string processing is mostly linked-listy.
21:18:40 <Deewiant> ehird: That doesn't mean it's fast.
21:18:42 <ehird> There's not really anything much bytestring about it.
21:18:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you do arrays in GHC?
21:18:47 <Deewiant> Arrays tend to be faster even for linked-listy stuff.
21:18:48 <ehird> Besides, that should be a memory issue.
21:18:52 <ehird> AnMaster: You can do ByteStrings.
21:18:59 <ehird> But ByteStrings are better.
21:19:40 <Deewiant> ehird: Some 8-10 bytes (?? I forget how many exactly) per char does not lead to speed
21:19:54 <ehird> Deewiant: That's memory.
21:20:09 <ehird> I can switch to [Int].
21:20:15 <Deewiant> As a bonus, linked lists aren't contiguous.
21:20:24 <Deewiant> [Int] is the same size as [Char], isn't it?
21:20:32 <ehird> I'll use a bloody ByteString.
21:20:48 <ehird> A strict bytestring, even./
21:20:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: the fundamental reason for backslashes is so that you can copy things
21:21:19 <oerjan> the looping happens by program self-replication, after all
21:21:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, go write a slashes interpreter for Linux x86_64 in asm!
21:21:55 <ehird> Grr, you can't pattern match on bytestrings.
21:22:05 * AnMaster wonders if a slashes compiler make any sense.
21:22:07 <Deewiant> I'm not particularly interested in slashes.
21:22:24 <Deewiant> And I'm done with asm for the time being.
21:22:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: too self-modifying
21:23:05 <AnMaster> an optimising and program folding compiler would work
21:23:13 * AnMaster waits for oerjan to figure that out
21:23:27 <oerjan> nah that's not my sort of thing
21:24:28 <AnMaster> basically what ick does when given that command line option I forgot
21:25:28 <ehird> *Main> run (B.singleton forwardSlash)
21:25:30 <AnMaster> if program is deterministic and uses no input: run program, save output. Write a shell script wrapper for it.
21:25:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: also that newer counter with less backslashes is quite deceptive, because i have just temporarily abbreviated <\\>\\\ to | :D
21:26:25 <oerjan> the older one at least used | internally, though inefficiently
21:26:41 <oerjan> | is like a prefix really
21:26:54 <oerjan> it "quotes" the next character
21:27:10 <AnMaster> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
21:27:36 <oerjan> it sends the next lines as DCC CHAT
21:32:31 <ehird> *Main> run $ B.pack [backSlash,backSlash,97,10]
21:34:55 <ehird> oerjan: one thing's for sure
21:35:02 <ehird> this bytestring haskell version will kick the perl interp's ass :)
21:35:46 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:37:58 <ehird> oerjan: so, you think that if you reach EOF in /foo, you stop executing?
21:38:13 <ehird> now *that's* something haskell
21:38:22 <ehird> i can't even exitSuccess
21:38:24 <ehird> since I'm out of IO
21:38:56 <ehird> oerjan: what about /foo\<EOF>
21:39:04 <ehird> and yeah, Maybe sounds right
21:39:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, it's '\' eof
21:40:41 <ehird> O(n) cons is analogous to (:) for lists, but of different complexity, as it requires a memcpy.
21:40:48 <ehird> time to restructure ::::))))))
21:41:11 <ehird> just have to track current string, trivial
21:43:11 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it sends the next lines as DCC CHAT
21:43:21 <ehird> you didn't accept?
21:43:25 <AnMaster> <*status> DCC Chat Bounce (EgoBot): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:59319]
21:43:32 * AnMaster tries to figure out the reason
21:45:12 <GregorR-L> Uhh, you shouldn't have an incoming connection, you should be establishing an outgoing connection to EgoBot.
21:45:22 <GregorR-L> And yes, even though some people have DCC problems, I still think this is the best solution :P
21:48:29 <oerjan> ehird: hm and yeah, thue-morse prints all at the end
21:48:45 <GregorR-L> !bf http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/beer.b
21:48:47 <EgoBot> 99 Bottles of beer on the wall
21:49:09 <GregorR-L> There, I increased the limit to be enough for 99 bottles :P
21:50:07 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it would be nice if you could also accept long lines, it's sort of a tradition to do infinite lazy programs on bots here
21:50:44 <GregorR-L> What do you mean by "infinite lines" ...
21:50:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: for(;;)putchar('a')
21:51:19 <GregorR-L> That's an infinite line alright :P
21:51:23 <oerjan> ^ul ( *)(~:S(*)*~:^):^
21:51:24 <fungot> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ ...too much output!
21:51:24 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Uhh, you shouldn't have an incoming connection, you should be establishing an outgoing connection to EgoBot.
21:51:57 <GregorR-L> Oh, just tell you when it gets cut off?
21:52:24 <oerjan> GregorR-L: for a start, actually print the line
21:52:41 <EgoBot> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.21406: parse error
21:52:49 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter4.sss
21:52:57 <oerjan> that doesn't print anything
21:53:04 <GregorR-L> It does print (truncated) very long lines.
21:53:08 <oerjan> because there are no newlines in it
21:53:20 <GregorR-L> Or at least, it's certainly supposed to :P
21:54:09 <GregorR-L> OHHH, that program is an infinite loop.
21:54:16 <GregorR-L> It'll get cut off before it accepts any input.
21:54:31 <ehird> An infinite loop is the only way to output infinite characters.
21:54:32 <AnMaster> << PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 'A,a,'A,@
21:54:32 <AnMaster> >> :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :+A
21:54:32 <AnMaster> >> :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com PRIVMSG AnMaster :<CTCP>DCC CHAT chat 1404135913 59867<CTCP>
21:55:04 <oerjan> GregorR-L: but it doesn't output slowly, so why shouldn't it reach the buffer limit first, and get printed?
21:55:25 <GregorR-L> oerjan: It always waits for either the program to complete or a newline to be printed :P
21:55:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, bouncer seems to mangle it somehow
21:55:41 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, fixed the \ bug yet?
21:55:41 <oerjan> well that's what we don't want, then
21:56:28 <AnMaster> and oerjan said it wasn't in his code
21:56:45 <AnMaster> ok. Seems the perl one is broken?
21:57:23 <oerjan> !sh echo "\\"hi there"
21:57:23 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.21670: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"'
21:58:23 <EgoBot> ghc-6.8.2: no input files
21:58:44 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.21837: line 1: cabal: command not found
21:58:49 <AnMaster> * DCC CHAT to EgoBot lost (Remote host closed socket).
21:59:09 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: That should be after you retrieved all the data.
22:01:00 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, well I generally blanket ignore CTCP and DCC. Why? Because it is irritating when you wake up in the morning and see a list of pending (and timed out) DCCs with spambots that tried to DCC you during the night.
22:01:37 <GregorR-L> Well that's too bad. DCC is a much-better way to handle long output, because I don't have to worry about flooding and users don't have to wait for lots of output.
22:03:08 <AnMaster> meh. *writes a white list that overlays the blacklist*
22:03:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:15:53 <fizzie> Is there some sort of limit for lots-of-output in the DCC chat thing too?
22:16:23 <GregorR-L> No speed limits though, just a flat total limit.
22:18:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you disappointed that the other bots know all kinds of DCC tricks and bazillion languages and whatnot?
22:18:54 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( oh yeah what))
22:20:10 <GregorR-L> EgoBot doesn't speak almost-English though.
22:20:13 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( they have a lot
22:20:37 <AnMaster> what? X just crashed. Someone give me a few lines of context above "<GregorR-L> EgoBot doesn't speak almost-English though." please
22:20:37 <GregorR-L> !echo I WILL DEFEAT FUNGOT MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHAH
22:20:40 <EgoBot> I WILL DEFEAT FUNGOT MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHAH
22:20:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:20:47 <AnMaster> (since I just reconnected to bouncer)
22:20:53 <ehird> fungot: Oh yeah what
22:20:54 <fungot> ehird: that i understood that you could
22:20:59 <ehird> fungot: be a green piece of food
22:21:00 <fungot> ehird: i need your help to get this treadmill inside and it my husband laughs everything you name it provided for us even after september eleven
22:21:00 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: fungot is feeling down because EgoBot supports more languages.
22:21:01 <fungot> GregorR-L: and you can chat while you play oh god they've got euka and spades and hearts and it it
22:21:09 <ehird> fungot: even after september eleven
22:21:09 <fungot> ehird: oh let's see sigh i didn't think it was
22:21:14 <ehird> fungot: i see i see
22:21:15 <fungot> ehird: excuse me but anyway um i mean
22:21:19 <fungot> ehird: ( ( really uh)) did we look at each other every now and then a
22:21:19 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, how was that determined?
22:21:24 <ehird> fungot: really, did we?
22:21:25 <fungot> ehird: ' cause think about it laughter laughter who knows maybe somebody else did um i'm kind of a
22:21:30 <ehird> fungot: laughter laughter!
22:21:31 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Well, fungot speaks almost-English.
22:21:32 <fungot> GregorR-L: um but but like i said nine one one they was aware of um
22:21:38 <AnMaster> and why is the damn spell checker suddely set to Afrikaans!?
22:22:04 <oerjan> ehird: i redesigned bct.sss to use about half the size, now it runs in perl but gives completely wrong output.
22:22:04 <GregorR-L> My guess: Because Afrikaans is, in the English alphabet, the first language :P
22:22:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, it complained it couldn't find the word list for Afrikaans.
22:22:21 <ehird> oerjan: that's nice; my interp will still rule.
22:22:36 <AnMaster> (that is because I don't have it installed duh)
22:22:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, but yeah would make sense
22:23:07 <oerjan> ehird: see you tomorrow then :)
22:23:12 <ehird> What's that gotta do with what GregorR-L said
22:23:13 <AnMaster> it usually starts with the one in LANG. Or English. Seems a bit random.
22:23:28 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night all").
22:23:49 <AnMaster> <ehird> What's that gotta do with what GregorR-L said <-- what has what got to do with it?
22:23:54 <GregorR-L> it should be $LANG, fallback to C.
22:24:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, LANG is sv_SE.UTF-8. But I always switch to English after starting client since I mainly chat in English channels.
22:33:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, will the current hostmask change?
22:33:50 <AnMaster> EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com
22:34:56 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It will change to codu.org soon.
22:35:19 <AnMaster> anyway I added the white list for it now
22:35:47 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, but why does it close as "connection lost" instead of the usual "connection closed"
22:35:54 <AnMaster> are you sure you follow the protocol?
22:36:19 <GregorR-L> When I'm done, I just close the port.
22:36:29 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, can you do it the proper way, whatever that is
22:36:40 <GregorR-L> If I can figure out what the proper way is, probably :P
22:38:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:40:59 <GregorR-L> There seems to be some magical DCC CLOSE message, which isn't documented anywhere on Earth :P
22:42:22 <AnMaster> if you saw a file ending in .es, what would you think it was?
22:42:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, it seems to be "EMCAScript" says wikipedia.
22:43:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, when it comes to IRC, few things are well documented.
22:43:51 <GregorR-L> The problem is that the non-browser-based ECMAScript-land is quite fragmented, so a .es file is probably an ECMAScript file for a very particular interpreter.
22:44:48 <AnMaster> I prefer to stick to languages where you have a high level of cross-implementation portability. Or possibly just one implementation
22:45:40 <AnMaster> !sh echo -n 'Hello'; echo 'World'
22:45:43 <GregorR-L> Well, that wasn't how it's done apparently :P
22:46:14 <GregorR-L> Gawd that's a lame way to do this, but OK :P
22:46:53 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:47:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, it is a reasonable way
22:48:29 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Unblock DCC from me so I can DCC CHAT you :P
22:48:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:49:36 <zzo38> Netcat does not use the shell functions in Linux. So if I get Linux, I will need to write interactive netcat.
22:49:47 <AnMaster> done, added exception for GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.209
22:50:22 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, done. Added exception for GregorR-L-who-can't-ssh-to-desktop!n=gregor@c-76-105-254-150.hsd1.or.comcast.net
22:50:41 <GregorR-L> I don't want to get wireshark running on my desktop over SSH, that's a PITA.
22:50:54 <AnMaster> * DCC CHAT connection established to GregorR-L [192.168.0.64:55613]
22:50:54 <AnMaster> * DCC CHAT to GregorR-L lost (Remote host closed socket).
22:50:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:51:11 <AnMaster> <*status> DCC Chat Bounce (GregorR-L): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:37086]
22:51:11 <AnMaster> <*status> DCC Xfer Bounce (GregorR-L): Socket error [Cannot assign requested address]
22:51:12 <GregorR-L> Well that didn't work properly at all :P
22:51:21 <zzo38> Can you write 99 bottles of beer in Furryscript? It is not indended for stuff like that at all. But I think I have heard it sone in sendmail also, which isn't designed for that either.
22:51:48 <GregorR-L> Never heard of Furryscript, although it sounds awesome :P
22:51:53 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, turned off the bounce
22:52:11 <AnMaster> * DCC CHAT connection established to EgoBot [64.62.173.65:10002]
22:52:11 <AnMaster> * DCC CHAT to EgoBot lost (Remote host closed socket).
22:52:37 <GregorR-L> Connection refused :P ... I'll try a different tact.
22:52:43 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, connection timed out to you
22:52:47 <GregorR-L> (With a different user, namely GregorR )
22:53:04 <zzo38> The sendmail codes is at: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-sendmail-588.html the Furryscript codes is at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/beer.txt
22:53:05 <GregorR-L> I did a passive-chat to you because I don't have access to the router here, I can't poke any holes.
22:53:46 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I'm behind double NAT and poking holes is a PITA.
22:54:04 <zzo38> The Furryscript codes sort of looks like it was designed for 99 bottles of beer, but actually, it wasn't. I'm just using the built-in function in different ways.
22:54:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, plus highly dynamic ip
22:54:19 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, for complex reasons.
22:54:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway, I don't think my client knows what passive DCC is
22:55:04 <AnMaster> the bouncer might, but not the client
22:55:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, passive dcc according to which model
22:55:34 <zzo38> Furryscript is design for generator of things such as D&D adventure idea, video game names, etc. Look at it in my web-site. Also look at the individual script codes you can see how it is supposed to work.
22:55:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, that model isn't supported here at all.
22:56:15 <zzo38> For example, the ARG command actually reads a number from the category 0( but it was designed for multiple parameter codes inside of strings, such as <X | <One> | <Two> | <Three> > a dynamic number of arguments.
22:56:45 <zzo38> Run it on the web-page at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php
22:57:04 <zzo38> See the video-games script for an example of the ARG command. And see the D&D adventure ideas script for an example of the plural command.
22:58:24 <zzo38> If you want to input code to Furryscript, you will need to get Furryscript.php (copy and paste the text from the web-page, or use a different program to remove the color-codes) and run it as a command-line program with the filename on the command-line argument.
22:58:55 <AnMaster> anyway. What has this got to do with netcat.
22:58:55 <zzo38> And if you make some codes, post them, I would like to see them so I can add them to my web-site!
22:59:12 <zzo38> Nothing to do with netcat. That was an unrelated comment.
22:59:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, and that comment about netcat made no sense either
22:59:38 <zzo38> Maybe not, but sendmail isn't an esolang either. I just wanted to post how it was done in similar things like that.
22:59:54 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: So what if it's not an esolang, it's still interesting :P
23:00:07 <AnMaster> is it? looks like a text generator language to me
23:00:57 <zzo38> The netcat comment has to do with, one day I went to FreeGeek office, I tried to access gopher and IRC through netcat but it doesn't do things like Windows push F2 for repeat up to something, arrow to select previous entry, etc. That is why I should write netcat interactive one day, for Linux only.
23:01:37 <zzo38> Try generating a list of adventure ideas with it to see how it works. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php?which=adventure.txt&count=20
23:01:43 <AnMaster> zzo38, on Windows that line editing is all in cmd.exe
23:01:57 <AnMaster> try using telnet instead of netcat
23:02:35 <AnMaster> "Furries are intentionally catching lycanthropy." <-- wut
23:03:09 <zzo38> Telnet doesn't do line editing either. Unless there is a program for that. But if I should write interactive netcat with mode for display of control-codes, color-codes, and line-editing (including the F2 of Windows, very useful in IRC but should be useful for other protocols also.)
23:03:34 <AnMaster> but maybe it is on the server side
23:04:21 <zzo38> AnMaster: That's just one of the entries in the list. There are many more, which include parameters and various other things. See (View selected script codes) to see the codes so you can know how the parameters are substituted. Also look at the codes in video-game-names if you want to see how they detect duplicates with that.
23:04:54 <zzo38> Telnet is good when the server accepts telnet commands but netcat (or netcat interactive) should be use for raw linemode protocols,,,...
23:04:56 <AnMaster> Spells and psionic powers start having weird quantum effects.
23:05:07 <zzo38> I like that one also!
23:05:10 <AnMaster> The gods announce a holiday for Paladins. A Paladin is not bound by his code on this day.
23:05:52 <AnMaster> Minotaurs want to live in your village but don't know the common language and refuse to learn it. <-- that's stupid
23:05:54 <zzo38> I didn't write all of them by myself but I did many of them, and I added parameters to many of them taken from other sources, also. If you have other ideas to add (with or without parameters), I would like to add it on.
23:06:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, so a lot of them are hard coded?
23:06:16 <AnMaster> I was hoping markov chain style
23:06:27 <zzo38> Many are hard-coded and many have parameters, and some of the parameters have their own parameters even.
23:06:42 <AnMaster> A bulette is tearing apart viable farmland. was generated twice
23:07:15 <zzo38> It can generate things twice. Furryscript itself only generates one per call to the program, but the web interface calls it multiple times and therefore might generate duplicates.
23:07:37 <AnMaster> A new noble seeks to clear a patch of wilderness of all monsters. <-- sounds like most computer RPGs/adventure games
23:08:38 <zzo38> You are right. But now I added a second one. <A new noble seeks to stop another new noble from clearing a patch of wilderness of all monsters> in addition to keeping the other one also
23:08:48 <AnMaster> zzo38, "The grim reaper has taken a human aprentice. " <-- you stole that from Discworld. Admit it.
23:09:29 <zzo38> AnMaster: No I didn't. Probably someone else stole it from Discworld and I just happened to find it listed somewhere, I certainly know nearly nothing about Discworld.
23:09:43 <AnMaster> Two hobgoblin bards argue about wheelbarrows. <-- exactly how is that an adventure :D
23:10:09 <zzo38> They aren't necessarily full adventures, they could be parts of adventures (when you want to modify parts), etc
23:10:27 <GregorR-L> "Minimal Booty Tactics" "Fruity Music Squadron" "Chinese Cheese Jamboree"
23:10:37 <AnMaster> A priest asks you to rescue his/her pet from a tree. <-- Before fire fighters were invented.
23:10:58 <AnMaster> err is that right English word?
23:13:17 <zzo38> I think if the DM combined what he already had with some of these ideas, it would make a interesting D&D game
23:13:34 <AnMaster> btw, the xkcd title/alt-text seems cryptic today
23:13:36 <zzo38> I don't play D&D like other people, I am a good defensive player at D&D.
23:14:06 <AnMaster> The entire game so far has been an illusion.
23:14:31 <AnMaster> I'm always a defensive player, in any game I play
23:15:00 <AnMaster> (which is why I suck at car racing games and similar)
23:15:40 <AnMaster> hah, as the last item listed was "The King of Nowhere hires you to secretly solve tense situtations."
23:16:00 <zzo38> Defensive play is not as simple as you might think. It is more interesting than offensive play in my opinion. Not only am I defensive play, my character has NG alignment so I try to good thing as well, like not kill someone if it is not necessary and if someone steal something I will give them back the money for buying a new one.
23:16:42 <zzo38> Many people want to play you have to kill everyone and steal their stuff but D&D is not a computer game! If you want to kill some monsters or whatever and steal their stuff, you should hire murderers and thieves, not adventureres
23:17:00 <zzo38> And it's D&D 3.5 edition, in case you didn't know.
23:17:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:22 <AnMaster> It turns out the tarrasque is really just cold. Find out how to knit him a sweater.
23:17:27 <ehird> 22:49 zzo38: Netcat does not use the shell functions in Linux. So if I get Linux, I will need to write interactive netcat.
23:17:47 <AnMaster> it was confusing yes, but in the end it was explained
23:18:06 <ehird> but I tried to read a bit
23:18:20 <ehird> 23:00 zzo38: The netcat comment has to do with, one day I went to FreeGeek office, I tried to access gopher and IRC through netcat but it doesn't do things like Windows push F2 for repeat up to something, arrow to select previous entry, etc. That is why I should write netcat interactive one day, for Linux only.
23:18:53 <AnMaster> ehird, is that allowed if nc isn't GPL compatible btw
23:19:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Legally, yes. According to rms, probably no.
23:19:15 <ehird> zzo38: nc is netcat, "rlwrap foo" runs foo with line editing capabilities
23:19:22 <zzo38> Use GNU netcat if normal netcat doesn't GPL compatible
23:19:23 <AnMaster> does it count as linking? Will Stallman use this to say every software ever made that uses the console has to be GPL?
23:19:24 <ehird> rlwrap wraps other programs to use readline
23:19:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope, yes,
23:19:39 <ehird> and not in the good way, so.
23:19:42 <GregorR-L> rlwrap so doesn't count as linking :P
23:19:52 <GregorR-L> And RMS is totally insane in the good way.
23:19:53 <AnMaster> Follow the interesting drama in the next episode of FSF
23:19:59 <zzo38> OK. Their computers are Ubuntu, does Ubuntu include rlwrap can I just type something like "rlwrap nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70" and it will work?
23:20:14 <ehird> zzo38: You have to install rlwrap.
23:20:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you answered too quickly
23:20:22 <zzo38> RMS is too impractical, lately, as far as I know.
23:20:31 <ehird> zzo38: the incident we're referring to was in 1992
23:20:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: If the clisp incident counts as viral, so does rlwrap.
23:22:16 <zzo38> If I make up my own Linux distribution then, rlwrap and netcat will be included and a command "nci" (netcat interactive) to run netcat with readline
23:22:31 <GregorR-L> "Post-Apocalyptic Thunder Psychiatrist" I would totally play this game.
23:22:37 <zzo38> And I make my own window manager also
23:23:25 <ehird> It's replacing "" with b.
23:23:25 <AnMaster> it should match every zero width
23:23:59 <AnMaster> zero width like ^ and $ in regex
23:24:06 <zzo38> Do you know something about optimize convert brainfuck to Javascript?
23:24:30 <zzo38> I tried to make it optimize but I want to know if it can be improved optimized
23:24:37 <ehird> zzo38: See esotope-bfc.
23:24:38 <AnMaster> you could write a javascript backend for esotope-bf
23:24:44 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
23:24:50 <ehird> compiles hello world to
23:24:50 <ehird> PUTS("Hello World!");
23:24:55 <AnMaster> he split the code generator out last I looked
23:25:12 <zzo38> It is into Javascript because of XUL-runner is programmed in Javascript, so when a client-script is being loaded from gopher it has to convert to Javascript.
23:25:35 <zzo38> My optimizer converts "," to "yield;"
23:25:43 <ehird> zzo38: you really want to use esotope for any hugely-optimizing BF optimizer.
23:26:35 <zzo38> Yes it does convert "+++" to "t[p]+=3;"
23:26:46 <ehird> zzo38: does it convert
23:26:48 <ehird> >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
23:26:48 <ehird> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
23:26:52 <ehird> print("Hello, world!")
23:27:01 <zzo38> Yes yes, it does do "[-]++++" into "t[p]=4;" as well. But it doesn't do everything.
23:27:13 <ehird> If not ... write an http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ backend ;-)
23:27:19 <zzo38> No. It doesn't do that last one.
23:27:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, and ++>-<++ into t[p]+=4; t[p+1]-=1;
23:27:25 <ehird> it also optimizes multiplication, all balacned loops, ...
23:27:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, that is. skip the pointer move
23:28:50 <zzo38> So far my program doesn't optimize I/O, it alawys converts "," to "yield;" and "." to "O();"
23:28:51 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/nosuchfile
23:29:05 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
23:29:28 <GregorR-L> Hey, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/nosuchfile doesn't exist! :P
23:29:42 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, indeed it doesn't. Was wondering about error message.
23:30:18 <zzo38> Look at my codes if you want to, to help me tell me what I am missing?
23:30:22 <AnMaster> also I think your version is outdated?
23:30:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: he probably released a new cfunge
23:30:59 <zzo38> And I can't use esotope-bfc because it is Python and I need the optimizer also be written in Javascript.
23:31:10 <AnMaster> locally: That the interpreter's version is 41
23:31:11 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
23:31:19 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> That the interpreter's version is 40
23:31:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, it was some time ago (weeks?)
23:31:30 <zzo38> See my codes in http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/Vonkeror.zip the file modules/brainfuck.js contains the optimizer of brainfuck into Javascript.
23:31:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is your file with the version info
23:31:55 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: If you think that I'm going to follow the versions of all the interpreters installed, you're quite severely incorrect :P
23:32:01 <AnMaster> so I can know what rev to diff from
23:32:15 <GregorR-L> !sh cat interps/cfunge/USED_VERSION
23:32:15 <EgoBot> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 0.4.0+bzr:trunk:r763
23:32:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: pojdpaosdjpoajp!!!!!!! !
23:32:50 -!- Sgeo[Pidgin] has joined.
23:32:56 <ehird> \\\\\\//////λλλλλλλλ
23:33:04 <ehird> ⁹⁸⁰‽↙ababababau˙ª´•
23:33:11 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Is the guest account of Ubuntu wiped at logoff?
23:33:11 <GregorR-L> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Having "[Pidgin]" on your name is just advertising "I use shitty IRC clients"
23:33:15 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> AnMaster: If you think that I'm going to follow the versions of all the interpreters installed, you're quite severely incorrect :P <-- you could sign up for the news letter (sourceforge project news simply)
23:33:24 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> If so, then I think that means it's secure enough for my needs
23:33:25 <zzo38> My program always wraps values of cells 0 to 255, and has two new commands * and ~ for using the second tape. I want to know if there is a way for checking when it doesn't need to wrap and therefore optimize it better.
23:33:25 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Storing your WORLD-ENDINGLY IMPORTANT SSN?
23:33:35 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: lern2gpg
23:34:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, does plain diff work for you?
23:35:04 <zzo38> Another thing that netcat does in Windows, if you are typing, it won't interrupt what you are typing with the output, it will let you finish typing first. Does readline do that?
23:35:46 <ehird> zzo38: that's awful
23:35:51 <ehird> it means you miss out on stuff :P
23:35:58 <ehird> readline will repeat the line again after
23:36:01 <ehird> so you don't lose the trail
23:36:41 <GregorR-L> Also, is zzo38 looking for http://codu.org/rawirc.c ? :P
23:36:57 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/r763_to_r777.diff is in the cfunge source dir directly. Then you need to change USED_VERSION to 0.4.1+bzr:trunk:r777
23:37:07 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, does that work for you
23:37:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, make clean and make after
23:37:20 <zzo38> OK if readline just puts output and then repeats the typing line afterward so that you can finish typing, that is even more better than Windows. Now the only thing needed is control-codes display mode and to make your typing a different color than the server's typing and then it is completely good.
23:37:56 <ehird> Bam! Underfeatured IRC client.
23:38:38 <AnMaster> !sh cat interps/cfunge/USED_VERSION
23:38:39 <EgoBot> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 0.4.0+bzr:trunk:r777
23:38:50 <AnMaster> !befunge98 http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/mycology.b98
23:39:32 <AnMaster> -zzo38- VERSION I am using netcat on Windows right now. But one day I will get Linux instead and maybe use rawirc.c or netcat with readline
23:39:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, anything wrong with a normal irc client
23:39:59 <GregorR-L> One big benefit of rawirc.c over netcat: It PINGs and PONGs for you :P
23:40:04 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> "Student Information effective from Fall 2008 to The End of Time"
23:40:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: freenode doesn't need pings/pongs
23:40:23 <zzo38> I don't need to reply to your PING message. The rawirc.c that you posted looks interesting, I will look at it more, a bit
23:40:29 <GregorR-L> ehird: FreeNode has a very long timeout for pings/pongs, but it does get pissed at you if you never pong.
23:40:34 <ehird> 23:36 GregorR-L: Also, is zzo38 looking for http://codu.org/rawirc.c ? :P
23:40:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: Very long = weeks?
23:40:46 <AnMaster> -GregorR-L- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Linux 2.6.29-1-686 [i686/2.40GHz]
23:40:49 <ehird> optbot never responded to ping
23:40:53 <ehird> and never got disconnected
23:41:07 <AnMaster> ehird, true, freenode doesn't require it
23:41:08 <GregorR-L> ehird: Idonno, I recall EgoBot getting bumped. Maybe its only if you send no output whatsoever.
23:41:23 <zzo38> The automatic ping-pong is useful. What would be very useful is a option to enable/disable that option, in case for whatever reason, you want to do it manually.
23:41:26 <ehird> Freenode is the only IRC network worth bothering with ;-)
23:41:33 <AnMaster> <zzo38> The automatic ping-pong is useful. What would be very useful is a option to enable/disable that option, in case for whatever reason, you want to do it manually.
23:41:35 <ehird> zzo38: WHY would you want to do it manually‽‽
23:41:48 <GregorR-L> zzo38: I haven't changed rawirc.c in years, but you can delete the relevant lines :P
23:41:48 <ehird> ahh zzo38 is great
23:42:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: BECAUSE THEY'RE FOR PUSSIES
23:42:15 <AnMaster> -GregorR-L- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Linux 2.6.29-1-686 [i686/2.40GHz]
23:42:37 <ehird> <GregorR-L> I WISH I HAD PUSSY
23:42:47 <zzo38> Probably no reason to do it manually, but it should be configurable, together with configurable colors and keyboard shortcuts (rawirc.c uses ^P for PRIVMSG and ^O for last channel, but if you could add more with a configuration file, would be useful,
23:42:56 <ehird> zzo38: The whole program should be configurable.
23:43:01 <ehird> The single configuration option is program_source.
23:43:14 <ehird> This is more flexible in case you want to, say, make toast.
23:43:28 <ehird> Actually that's been done
23:43:38 <AnMaster> I was just about to mention it
23:43:57 <zzo38> I like automatic ping-pong, so I don't want to delete it. But if I modify it I will make automatic ping-pong configurable, but still enabled by default (I have no reason to disable it, but later on there might be a use for it, in case you want to test something, maybe)
23:43:58 <AnMaster> because it is so configurable. More than any other normal client
23:44:06 <AnMaster> while still doing most of the normal client stuff
23:44:13 <ehird> zzo38: to test something couldn't you use netcat?
23:44:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:44:46 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Would it be bad for me to ask the average GPA of people in here?
23:44:54 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], what the hell is GPA
23:45:02 <ehird> AnMaster: school thing.
23:45:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(education)
23:45:11 <ehird> grade point average
23:45:30 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: this one ... goes up to 72.
23:45:32 <GregorR-L> I got an A- this term so I got demoted to a 3.98 >: (
23:45:37 <ehird> It's like going up to 11, but moreso.
23:45:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], in Sweden there is one that goes up to 20
23:46:02 <ehird> Or is it 22, AnMaster?
23:46:08 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Got an A in all classes but two. One I got an A-, and one I got a C
23:46:15 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven
23:46:28 <ehird> it's from Spinal Tap
23:46:38 <ehird> I know what you meant.
23:46:39 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: In the US, grades are basically: A=4.0, B=3.0, C=2.0, D=1.0, F=0.0, then average by number of credits.
23:46:44 <AnMaster> it is used when you apply for university
23:46:48 <ehird> The phrase was coined in a scene from the 1984 mockumentary/rockumentary This Is Spinal Tap by the character Nigel Tufnel, played by Christopher Guest. In this scene Nigel gives the rockumentary's director, Marty DiBergi, played by Rob Reiner, a tour of his stage equipment. While Nigel is showing Marty his Marshall guitar amplifiers, he points out one in particular whose control knobs all have the highest setting of eleven (unlike standard amplifiers, wh
23:46:50 <ehird> ose volume settings are typically numbered from zero to ten), believing that this numbering actually increases the volume of the amp ("It's one louder."). When Marty asks why the ten setting is not simply set to be louder, Nigel pauses, clearly confused, before responding, "These go to eleven".[2][3]
23:46:51 <AnMaster> after you finished high school
23:47:02 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: SO, if the max value is 20, then divide by 5 to get something roughly equivalent to US GPA.
23:47:09 <zzo38> Another feature to add to rawirc (I might add it, one day) is if you type PASS, it will echo the rest of your command as asterisks regardless of what you actually type (also configurable, of course).
23:47:22 <pikhq> Sometimes those numbers, in high school, are incremented for honors or college credit courses.
23:47:25 <ehird> Couldn't you just type asterisks, zzo38?
23:47:44 <GregorR-L> ehird: It will ECHO the rest of your command as asterisks :P
23:47:45 <pikhq> Making for 5.0 semesters being theoretically possible.
23:47:48 <ehird> oh for the PASS command
23:47:54 <ehird> that's still ridiculous :-P
23:48:10 <zzo38> What if your password isn't asterisks? The reason is so that you can type in your password and it is not displayed on the screen
23:48:17 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: WE ARE USA. YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME.
23:48:21 <AnMaster> and we have different systems in primary school, high school and university.
23:48:25 <ehird> You're remarkably anti-US, AnMaster; it makes you look even more idiotic than UScentric people
23:48:28 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> My HS cumulative GPA was 12.569... making me wonder what the max for that is
23:48:29 <pikhq> SOMEONE SET US UP THE BOMB.
23:48:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh burn.
23:50:50 <AnMaster> IG (not passed), G (passed), VG (passed with excellence), MVG (passed with lots of excellence) is the basic system used in Sweden. For primary and high schools. At university level there is U (not passed) G (passed) VG (pased with excellence)
23:51:20 <ehird> Passed with lost of excellence sounds so much funnier than summa cum laude.
23:51:41 <pikhq> Those don't seem very high-grained.
23:51:46 <ehird> Well, maybe it translates to magna cum laude
23:51:55 <pikhq> Not that A,B,C,D,F is very finely grained, either...
23:52:15 <GregorR-L> pikhq: That's why we have this A-, B+, B-, C+ sh** :P
23:52:22 <ehird> Wait, there's no E grade in the US?
23:52:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> Passed with lost of excellence sounds so much funnier than summa cum laude. <-- I didn't remember the Latin term
23:52:43 <pikhq> GregorR-L: My school had them, but didn't apply for the GPA.
23:53:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: A, B, C and D are just lettered from A, but "F" isn't meant to be the next letter, it stands for "failed"
23:53:07 <pikhq> A* = 4.0, B* = 3.0, C* = 2.0, D* = 1.0, F* = 0.0.
23:53:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA THAT SUCKS THERE NEEDS TO BE AN E GRADE
23:53:20 <AnMaster> it is "MVG = Mycket Väl Godkänd". Literal translation: "Much Well Passed".
23:53:21 <pikhq> Oh, and D was very much a passing graid.
23:53:27 <AnMaster> which just doesn't work in English ehird
23:53:54 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:53:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, maybe it translates to magna cum laude <-- yes
23:54:06 <AnMaster> and then VG would be cum laude
23:54:10 <ehird> In ascending order: F, D, C, B, A, ´, ¥, ↓, œ, ‽, *BEEP*,
23:54:12 <ehird> Segmentation fault
23:54:34 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, everyone know English is a mix of Germanic and Latin languages. Oh and a bit of celtic too iirc.
23:54:45 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Latin only through French.
23:55:00 <ehird> A new horror movie. Out Summer.
23:55:10 -!- darthnuri has joined.
23:55:19 <ehird> And the whole of Franc
23:55:22 <ehird> and the French language itself
23:55:32 <Gracenotes> argh, why do I have the word 'stewart' stalked
23:55:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Mostly place names are Celtic.
23:55:48 <GregorR-L> Gracenotes: Because you're such a French Stewart fan?
23:56:00 -!- darthnuri has changed nick to inurinternet.
23:56:10 <Gracenotes> oh yes, now I remember, it's because of James Stewart's calculus book
23:56:28 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> "The following survey pages must be completed prior to accessing the Registration:"
23:56:32 <pikhq> ( *cester == unholy amalgamate of Celtic and Latin)
23:56:50 <Gracenotes> which I don't have an ebook of by the way.
23:57:05 <pikhq> Something like "town"?
23:57:06 <GregorR-L> Gracenotes: Neither do I. And neither does French Stewart.
23:57:24 <pikhq> Kinda screwy when you consider that my last *name* is Worcester.
23:57:40 <ehird> pikhq: Whenever I think Worcester I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce
23:58:06 <GregorR-L> Pronounced "Warshrrrhshfshouapfhdoiafs"
23:58:09 <pikhq> ehird: Well, Worcestershire sauce comes from the shire containing the town that gives me my last name...
23:58:13 <ehird> (Which I seem to alternate between liking and hating every time I try it)
23:58:27 <pikhq> "Woostershir sauce" is the pronounciation, BTW.
23:58:38 <pikhq> (I'm not giving you IPA)
23:59:20 <ehird> War sest er sher. ← say it ten times quick
23:59:24 <pikhq> BECAUSE ENGLISH SUXORS.
23:59:48 <pikhq> ... Ten times quick will get you close to how it's actually pronounced, though.
23:59:51 <ehird> I was just doing it the obvious way
00:00:20 <GregorR-L> I pronounce it "War-chester-shire" and then people tell me I'm pronouncing it wrong and I say "fuck you I refuse to pronounce it like that"
00:00:37 <pikhq> Gregor, I kill you.
00:01:20 <GregorR-L> ehird got in to the liquor cabinet.
00:01:38 <ehird> I AM - the liquor. uhhhh
00:01:59 <ehird> that was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought.
00:03:17 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I have no way to listen to any music while on this account
00:03:29 <ehird> Wow, the endpcnoise support people are really helpful
00:03:48 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Unless someone can link me to some nice .ogg music?
00:06:24 <ehird> Ah, Kill Yourself - a song for the ages.
00:07:28 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Gregor's 5th through 8th opuses are also rather nice.
00:07:47 <ehird> No song is better than Kill Yourself. Especially because it completely lacks melody.
00:08:15 <GregorR-L> Gee, apparently my 9th and 10th suck.
00:08:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: is Kill Yourself prescribed for regular use, I mean if i kill myself and then feel bad again
00:09:34 * Sgeo[Pidgin] vaguely hopes that there's no one suicidal in here
00:10:04 <ehird> I doubt a song would convince someone to go through with it.
00:10:46 <AnMaster> <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I have no way to listen to any music while on this account <-- huh?
00:11:05 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], I'll link you. Sec.
00:11:33 <ehird> AnMaster: GregorR-L has already filled any need.
00:11:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/
00:11:52 <ehird> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg [counteracting]
00:11:58 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> AnMaster: the World of Goo soundtrack is in mp3s, and I can't set that up while on a guest account. Not sure how to get... Wesnoth music! OMG
00:12:10 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], um. Those I linked are *.ogg
00:12:34 <AnMaster> wget http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/elf-land.ogg?rev=29785
00:12:35 <ehird> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg
00:13:12 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music wesnoth-music
00:13:20 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> AnMaster: actually, I can just click on a file and click download
00:13:41 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: If you've got a build environment, mpg123.
00:13:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], and why can't you just get an mp3 player btw
00:13:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:52 <pikhq> Install it in ~/local/
00:13:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], surely gcc is installed?
00:14:19 <AnMaster> no system is complete without a full software compiling environment
00:14:25 <ehird> 00:14 AnMaster: no system is complete without a full software compiling environment
00:14:32 <ehird> Bull + Shit = That.
00:14:35 <ehird> (Apologies to GregorR-L)
00:14:39 <AnMaster> ehird, embedded systems excluded
00:14:52 <ehird> Shit + Bull = Atth.
00:15:44 <AnMaster> At least a C compiler, linker, make, system headers, and anything else needed to boot strap basically every other program
00:15:48 * GregorR-L wonders why "Apologies to GregorR-L" on that ...
00:15:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I stole it from you :P
00:16:18 <ehird> It's shit that comes from a bull.
00:17:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: Can you explain to AnMaster why the vast majority of users have absolutely no need whatsoever for a compilation environment?
00:17:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: Although it's clearly the case, no, I cannot :P
00:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, the vast majority of users won't need to program themselves sure. But they will some day need to compile a program. IMO.
00:18:00 <AnMaster> it should be taught in schools
00:18:13 <ehird> AnMaster: You're batshit insane and I hope you never get into a position to introduce things into the curriculum.
00:18:43 <ehird> And compile a program.
00:18:45 <ehird> You're mad. Barmy.
00:18:57 <AnMaster> write a document, and print it
00:19:00 <ehird> Completely out of the loop.
00:19:06 <ehird> Two marbles short of a fruitcake.
00:19:13 <AnMaster> and basic "read the INSTALL file"
00:19:25 <AnMaster> in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM
00:19:43 <ehird> ... Tom Cruise, who?
00:19:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: Please save me from the mad "every user will one day need to compile a program and it should be taught in schools" person who doesn't know who Tom Cruise is
00:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I revised that
00:20:12 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM "
00:20:39 <AnMaster> how you best search for information
00:20:50 <AnMaster> stuff like how to search on google, where to find manuals
00:21:27 <ehird> A manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases.
00:21:45 <AnMaster> ehird, there will always be users who do not understand the UI
00:21:58 <GregorR-L> The ones who speak Swedish haw haw
00:22:12 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, that joke didn't even make any sense.
00:22:29 <ehird> 00:22 mauke: my ($fst, $snd) = m{^((?:[^\\/]|\\.)*)/(.*)\z}s; $fst =~ s/\\(.)/$1/sg;
00:22:34 <ehird> a programmer in oerjan's kin
00:22:34 <pikhq> ehird, a lack of a manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases.
00:22:43 <pikhq> Really, 90% of all UIs are bad.
00:22:46 <ehird> pikhq: Your mom is a sign of your face in 110% of cases.
00:23:42 <AnMaster> Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law.
00:24:02 <ehird> Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:04 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:06 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:08 <ehird> ooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.
00:28:05 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Pidgin integrates with the thingy on the upper right
00:28:50 <AnMaster> what thingy on the upper right?
00:29:15 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: wait, you are concerned about security
00:29:24 * ehird lols all over the floor
00:29:34 <pikhq> You know the word "security", and use Windows?
00:29:34 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> When I'm concerned about security, I'll use Linux
00:29:39 * pikhq joins ehird in loling
00:29:47 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> When I'm not, which is most of the time, I'll use Windows
00:29:50 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin]
00:30:02 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Why can't I choose when to care about security?
00:30:11 <ehird> She is a duck witch Sgeo pidgeon.
00:30:15 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin] some more
00:30:29 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Because if you *really* want to run Windows, the sanest way to do it is in a virtual machine.
00:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, err, she also floats on the water?
00:30:33 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Most of the time, for me, Games > Security. When Security > Games, I'll boot into Linux. Not that difficult
00:30:51 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> pikhq: can I transfer my current system into a VM easily?
00:30:59 <GregorR-L> Not-wanting-to-kill-myself > games :P
00:31:10 <pikhq> Not-wanting-to-stab-computer > games.
00:31:23 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> So far, no viruses come with ext3 drivers, right?
00:31:28 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Possible, but not likely.
00:31:49 <AnMaster> not-wanting-to-run-Distributed.Storm > games
00:31:59 <pikhq> Also, it wouldn't be hard for a virus to have ext3 support.
00:32:09 <pikhq> First, the source code for userspace ext3 handling is out there.
00:32:17 <pikhq> Second, there is an ext2 driver for Windows.
00:32:24 <ehird> Linux virus: rm -rf ~
00:32:36 <AnMaster> ehird, unless there is a kernel bug it can exploit
00:32:43 <GregorR-L> It would be endlessly amusing if the first implementation of ext4 on Windows was part of a virus :P
00:32:46 <ehird> It's a Unix virus!
00:32:55 <GregorR-L> (That infects Linux by means of infecting Windows)
00:33:04 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That would be hilarious.
00:33:14 <ehird> open source viruses would be coo
00:33:23 <ehird> i'd be down with viruses if they were FOSS
00:33:32 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Using the Windows installer to install Linux doesn't make things worse than a regular multi-partition setup, does it?
00:33:39 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: It does.
00:33:46 <ehird> Wubi puts your linux partition as an ntfs file.
00:33:53 <ehird> It's le awful, and does no partitioning.
00:33:59 <ehird> And is le dependent on le windows.
00:34:08 <pikhq> Didn't realise that it was using *that* hack.
00:34:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: FIRE ZE MISSILES!!!!
00:34:20 <GregorR-L> *whew*, glad somebody got the reference :P
00:34:37 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I guess malware could just delete my Linux system without it even being designed to attack Linux in any way
00:34:44 <pikhq> Not as plain screwy as umsdosfs, though.
00:34:46 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: securitywise,
00:34:51 <ehird> it'll be infected by NTFS-infecting viruses
00:35:02 <GregorR-L> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Well, if it can get access from Windows to the Linux disk, then it could install something which will run as root.
00:35:03 <pikhq> Emulating UNIX filesystem features on FAT!
00:35:08 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> ehird: it's not a single file that uses ext3 internally?
00:35:15 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: yes, but viruses will fuck with it
00:35:47 <pikhq> They might well do something weird like insert their code into it.
00:35:53 <ehird> Yeah, and break Linux.
00:35:56 <ehird> Not infect, but break.
00:35:58 <AnMaster> " Genre: Romantic Classical" <-- how the heck did they class this morden game music in wesnoth as that. (mplayer reported that from the metadata in the file)
00:35:59 <ehird> Goddamn, just partition.
00:36:15 <pikhq> Especially with Ubuntu.
00:36:16 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: The metadata is annoyingly limited.
00:36:33 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, no way these are time typical instruments from the romantic period.
00:36:36 <pikhq> It literally has "Install alongside Windows? [yes] [no]"...
00:36:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: Winamp extended ID3 has Primus as a genre.
00:37:05 <ehird> And Christian Gangsta Rap, iirc.
00:37:05 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I thought Ogg metadata used arbitrary strings?
00:37:10 <ehird> It's limited because Winamp developers are dicks.
00:37:15 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Don't feel like walking across the house to get a CD to burn. I do feel like making lame excuses for everything
00:37:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, and no way the music is that either
00:37:20 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Hard rock played on a string quartet is not classical :P
00:37:35 <GregorR-L> (Which is to say, the instrument selection is a bad way to determine genre)
00:37:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, agreed. But what has that got to do with it
00:38:04 <AnMaster> actually, what would hard rock on a string quartet sound like
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00:38:06 <pikhq> Hard rock on a string quartet is certainly *awesome*...
00:38:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Awesome.
00:38:10 <pikhq> Just not classical.
00:38:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Post-rock would be close, but it's less... hard.
00:38:22 <pikhq> Don't have Youtube links handy, sadly.
00:38:36 <ehird> But post-rock has things like electric guitars being played with violin... pokers, and tons of strings, and whatnot.
00:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, just some good representative example that I can listen for 10 seconds to and then rant about for a minute or two.
00:39:44 <ehird> I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though.
00:39:50 <AnMaster> hm what genre is http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/casualties_of_war.ogg?rev=35621 actually
00:39:52 <ehird> But also, uh, 10 minutes.
00:39:54 <ehird> So you'd have to skip around a lot.
00:40:07 <ehird> 6:43 is quite representative.
00:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, there is fmt=22 nowdays too iirc
00:40:50 <ehird> That video does not have an HD version.
00:41:08 <AnMaster> ehird, which is the best format for video and sound quality
00:41:19 <ehird> but it also takes 5 years to load, and isn't real HD
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00:41:50 <ehird> 22 = HD, 18 = HQ, dunno = regular.
00:42:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube#Format_and_quality_comparison_table
00:42:18 <ehird> Well, I don't know.
00:42:32 <Sgeo> What's the difference between HD and HQ?
00:42:41 <ehird> HQ is just a bit higher bitrate
00:42:46 <ehird> HD is a lot higher resolution
00:42:50 <ehird> and all-around much better quality
00:42:53 <ehird> i.e. it is actually watchable
00:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, any sudden volume changes in that?
00:43:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though. <-- that one
00:43:46 <ehird> No. Listen to the first few seconds, go to 3 minutes in, 6:30 ... then 7:45, should give a representative sample of the entire track.
00:43:51 <AnMaster> and you said it had string quartet?
00:43:54 <pikhq> Youtube's HD is 720p.
00:43:58 <ehird> "I don't know about hard-rock-quartet"
00:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it has strings, though.
00:44:29 <pikhq> (last I checked, 720p is real HD)
00:45:02 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't very rock like. At least the classical type of rock.
00:45:05 <GregorR-L> Anything greater than 480 is HD :P
00:45:31 <ehird> Post-rock is more classical music with a beat and some modern instruments
00:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird, not much beat in that one
00:46:01 <ehird> Eh, it has drums in a rhythmical pattern.
00:46:04 <AnMaster> anything more than PAL is HD !
00:46:11 <ehird> Anything more than 1x1 is HD.
00:46:28 <AnMaster> I haven't got to the other bits yet
00:46:28 <Sgeo> Should I try actually playing Wesnoth?
00:46:31 <ehird> Post rock does have a lot of very long intros/outros.
00:46:45 <ehird> Seeing as almost all of it is about 10 minutes long.
00:46:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, if you like turned based strategy games set in a fantasy environment yes.
00:47:12 <Sgeo> AnMaster, never really tried one before
00:47:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't like the start at all. Not sure what the instrument was there
00:47:37 <Sgeo> I read a comic that's about something that looks like a turn based strategy game set in a fantasy environment
00:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, why is there just a still picture of some odd orange dots for the video part
00:48:05 <ehird> AnMaster: It is the cover of the EP it's from, Slow Riot for New Zerø Kanada. (Yes, with the ø.) It's Hebrew.
00:48:08 <ehird> "tohu va vohu" (תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ)
00:48:15 <ehird> It means "nothingness", "void", etc.
00:48:18 <ehird> It's from the Bible.
00:49:04 <ehird> Well, it's not much of an EP more as a gigantic single; it's just two tracks of 10/17 minutes respectively and they flow into each other.
00:49:33 * AnMaster has no idea about the difference
00:49:40 <ehird> EP is sub-30 minutes, pretty much.
00:49:49 <AnMaster> and what does the E stand for?
00:49:55 <ehird> Extended Play vs Long Play.
00:49:57 <AnMaster> (what does the L in LP stand for btw...)
00:50:17 <ehird> Godspeed You! Black Emperor's actual albums are quite the long; the LP version of Yanqui U.X.O. is 83:58 long.
00:50:19 <AnMaster> ehird, at 08:06 it is horrible btw
00:50:38 <ehird> Did it become too musical? ;-)
00:50:39 <AnMaster> well at 07:45 it is bad already
00:51:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) too much "guitar in pain"
00:51:28 <AnMaster> 2) mostly noise + hammering on the trums?
00:51:41 <ehird> It doesn't sound like noise to me.
00:51:49 <ehird> But then, I've listened to actual noise music.
00:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the guitar in pain bit
00:52:09 <ehird> It doesn't sound like a guitar to me.
00:52:17 <AnMaster> overdrive or whatever the technical term is
00:52:24 <ehird> No, that's not overdrive.
00:52:29 <ehird> Overdrive is the distorted guitar sound.
00:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that sound then
00:52:46 <ehird> I don't know; it just sounds like a violin-y type instrument to me. Bow-y sort of thin.
00:53:33 <AnMaster> whatever it is, it isn't violin as I'm used to. But then maybe a violin played non-classically is like that.
00:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12
00:54:23 <ehird> It seems my local copy of Moya is corrupted.
00:54:26 <AnMaster> starts at 09:18 to be specific
00:54:30 <ehird> It's been replaced with BBF3...
00:54:33 <ehird> So I can't seek there, sry
00:54:46 <ehird> BBF3 is the second track on the EP.
00:54:49 <ehird> And Moya is the name of that track.
00:54:56 <ehird> YouTube's seeking is broken for me
00:55:36 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/
00:55:42 <AnMaster> $ youtube-dl -f 18 -g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA
00:55:42 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFP3IBND5TL6Ui4VDVPVt1LViKkQEiNtjPc=&fmt=18
00:55:46 <AnMaster> not sure if they code that for ip or such
00:55:54 <AnMaster> try to wget that one. It might work
00:57:52 <ehird> http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp Oh my god cool
00:57:57 <ehird> It's a computer that you just plug in
00:58:06 <ehird> Smallest thing evar
00:59:10 <ehird> I don't have a thing to play flvs
00:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, err it should result in an *.mp4
00:59:34 <ehird> 2009-05-16 00:59:31 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
00:59:35 <AnMaster> $ youtube-dl -f 18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA
00:59:38 <AnMaster> [youtube] Rsf2LoLk3SA: URL: http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFMVFjf32EvGGWmN31bE9d4hzsYrdrQ_0ds=&fmt=18
00:59:38 <AnMaster> [download] Destination: Rsf2LoLk3SA.mp4
01:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, then you need to generate the url locally
01:00:19 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/
01:00:24 <ehird> Link to an actual file?
01:00:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it is in python or ruby iirc
01:00:51 <ehird> Bitbucket, the github ripoff using hg/python so probably Python
01:00:57 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/youtube-dl: a python script text executable
01:01:15 <AnMaster> http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/raw/2009.05.13/youtube-dl
01:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, remember to pass -f 18 for format 18
01:01:59 <ehird> bitbucket's UI is pretty much screen-for-screen identical to github's
01:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like same basic idea that sf.net uses
01:02:41 <AnMaster> Overview Downloads Source Changesets Wiki Issues
01:02:46 <ehird> but you can match any github page to any launchpad one, pretty much
01:02:57 <ehird> and the UI, layout, design and functionality are almost entirely identiacl
01:03:17 <AnMaster> sfnet: Overview, Downloads, Source (changes are found under that), wiki (they added wiki a year ago or so), bug tracker
01:03:36 <ehird> that's one minor list.
01:04:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but ok, it is very close to github
01:04:28 <AnMaster> wouldn't call it ripoff though
01:04:42 <ehird> Well, I've used github a lot so my senses may be more attuned :P
01:04:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and you might be bisaed
01:05:05 <ehird> Not really; github has a ton of flaws.
01:05:22 <AnMaster> use a more neutral word than ripoff then
01:05:42 <ehird> Flower is a very neutral word.
01:05:47 <ehird> What more could you want?
01:06:19 <AnMaster> that got a negative tone to it as well
01:06:52 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if there will ever be a game based on Erfworld
01:06:56 <AnMaster> just going out as far as you are, in the other direction
01:07:25 <Sgeo> AnMaster, comic about a fantasy turn-based world
01:07:25 <Sgeo> http://www.erfworld.com/
01:08:08 <Sgeo> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfworld
01:08:18 <ehird> AnMaster: whre's the screech
01:08:35 <Sgeo> "Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Knob is a story-driven fantasy/comedy webcomic about a master strategy gamer stuck in a wargame. "
01:08:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: whre's the screech <-- ?
01:08:50 <ehird> that you got me to dl this vid for
01:09:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12
01:09:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> starts at 09:18 to be specific
01:09:49 <ehird> I think that's just a bunch of echoes, maybe some fallout from the guitar.
01:09:57 <ehird> The drums are a likely culprit too.
01:10:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the drums start more too
01:10:34 <AnMaster> fallout. Rock fallout protection shelter.
01:11:07 <ehird> I have a high tolerance for noisy stuff... I guess i'm a lo-fi sort of person.
01:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, Yet you want a silent computer
01:13:01 <ehird> I have entire albums that spend their whole lives at 100% volume and distortion heaven...
01:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, go figure.
01:13:10 <ehird> Computer noise isn't very pleasing P
01:13:35 <AnMaster> ehird, to me the noise of a even slightly overdriven guitar is as bad as that of a computer
01:13:43 <ehird> You just have bad taste :-)
01:13:57 <AnMaster> and possibly electric if they skip the noise stuff.
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01:58:32 <pikhq> I quite like distorted guitar.
01:58:46 <pikhq> Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album.
01:58:54 <pikhq> That just sounds crappy.
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07:12:30 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
07:12:34 <Sgeo> Wolfram Alpha doesn't know about Brainfuck!
07:13:23 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
07:13:43 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:13:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
07:15:53 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:15:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
07:16:11 <oerjan> ok it's not the nvg web server's fault
07:16:21 <oerjan> GregorR: ^ web problem
07:17:02 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:17:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
07:17:28 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
07:17:30 <EgoBot> Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.636 line 16, <> line 516.
07:18:01 <oerjan> that didn't help either here or there
07:18:31 <Sgeo> So it was less a web problem and more a PEBKAC problem? (No offense)
07:19:29 * oerjan always finds himself interpreting PEBKAC as being in the russian alphabet
07:19:59 <oerjan> so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder
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07:29:33 <mtve> oerjan: nothing
07:30:23 <mtve> <oerjan> so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder
07:31:55 <oerjan> i got confused by GregorR-L entering, must have cleared my mental irc cache :D
07:37:48 <GregorR-L> rm -rf oerjan/.caches/mind/irc/freenode/\#esoteric
07:38:28 <oerjan> what does that mean? also, who are you?
07:39:21 <GregorR-L> "Cache" does not mean "speed booster" :P
07:39:29 <bsmntbombdood> free(hash_lookup_str(oerjan_irc_cache, "#esoteric"))
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07:41:00 <Sgeo> "Many mistaken the refrain for saying "Do the lucky lady," "Noodle knock the Navy," "Do it like a lady," or "Do the Macarena,""
07:41:09 <Sgeo> I laughed at macarena
07:41:10 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law.
07:41:15 <oerjan> well, so is your face.
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07:44:55 <Gracenotes> ugh. what kind of sad place is Digg's programming section?
07:45:23 <Sgeo> http://oneoverzero.comicgenesis.com/faq.html
07:45:25 <oerjan> Gracenotes: should i be very happy that i have no idea? :D
07:45:27 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, why?
07:45:58 <oerjan> ah, 1/0, my first webcomic
07:46:53 <Gracenotes> it's rather low volume, and the volume it has is hardly interesting? Largely web development stuff and plebeian complaints about software
07:47:04 <GregorR-L> I started reading the FAQ, then got bored because they were all really bad jokes.
07:47:25 <Gracenotes> web development meaning PHP, for the most part
07:52:30 <Gracenotes> but, I mean, as opposed to complaints about software from a design perspective, just complaining.
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08:30:04 <GregorR-L> If anybody has any interest in MUSHes, I just threw one up on codu.org for giggles. Type '!mush' or telnet/mushclient to codu.org:6250
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09:59:31 <impomatic> Has anyone played Pascal Robots? Most of the websites about it seem to have vanished.
10:01:40 <ais523> impomatic: I'm afraid not
10:04:53 <impomatic> Hi ais523. I don't expect many people have, considering how little there is on the net.
10:05:44 <ais523> I must get that BF Joust for EgoBot finished off
10:05:55 <ais523> you keep reminding me of BF Joust just by existing
10:05:59 <ais523> which is a good thing, I suppose
10:06:21 <impomatic> I'm just mirroring the p-robots stuff from Geocities at the moment.
10:07:06 <impomatic> Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes.
10:07:09 <ais523> so much useful stuff was there
10:07:15 <ais523> and the BANCStar site's probably the most important
10:07:28 <ais523> it received a cease-and-desist once, though
10:07:46 <impomatic> Oh? Is there any info about that anywhere?
10:08:13 <impomatic> Are you making a BF Joust King of the Hill?
10:09:01 <ais523> which I can link you to if you like
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10:10:46 <ais523> let me dig up the link
10:11:58 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1414581
10:16:45 <impomatic> I've copy/pasted it to experiment with later :-) I assume it'll work on any version of Perl
10:17:09 <ais523> as you can see near the top
10:17:19 <ais523> because I find it hard to un-learn new features
10:17:25 <ais523> some people are on 5.8 still
10:18:45 <impomatic> Hmmm... mine is 5.8.7, will upgrade later ;-)
10:19:02 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard to backport it
10:19:09 <ais523> you'd just have to rewrite the given blocks explicitly
10:19:56 <impomatic> Easier for me to upgrade. I've got a copy of Learning Perl, but haven't read it yet!
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10:20:59 <impomatic> There's a few programs I want to port to Perl before I publish them, so I really ought to start reading it.
10:24:27 <ais523> that program allows a couple of abbreviations that I often find wanting to use in BF Joust programs
10:24:40 <ais523> (+-)*5 is equivalent to +-+-+-+-+-
10:24:46 <ais523> so it accepts run-length encoding
10:25:14 <ais523> you can also create nested patterns like this: (>{+-}<)%5 is equivalent to >>>>>+-<<<<<
10:54:13 <oerjan> sheesh, i insert debug statements into my bct program and suddenly it works perfectly (but dog slow, naturally)
10:54:32 <oerjan> (well not the whole program, just what i have so far)
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10:55:12 <oerjan> hypothesis: something probably happens at the boundary between commands where i insert debugging
10:56:54 * oerjan rechecks that it fails without the debug statements
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11:06:08 <ais523> hmm... Wolfram Alpha's up now, and it seems partly slashdotted
11:06:13 <ais523> as in, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't
11:06:16 <ais523> it may in fact have been Cuiled
11:09:03 <ais523> unfortunately, it doesn't seem to know what the world's shortest mountain is
11:09:09 <ais523> it interprets the query correctly but gets no results
11:10:31 <impomatic> I suppose it depends how you define a mountain. Over 1000 ft?
11:11:10 <impomatic> I know my definition is different to my girlfriend's definition. Also here definition of climbing is different!
11:11:30 <ais523> well, I was hoping to use the question to probe Alpha's definition of a mountain
11:11:39 <ais523> I assume it must contain a finite number of mountains in its database
11:11:45 <ais523> and I was wondering what the shortest one was
11:16:24 <ais523> hmm... "multiply 6 by 9 in base 13" tells me that it interpreted the input as a request to multiply 6 by 9 in base 13
11:16:27 <ais523> then it doesn't tell me the answer
11:16:31 <ais523> which is slightly weird
11:17:40 <ais523> if I download the answer as PDF, in addition to the input interpretation, it gives me the result: "CalculateBaseForm(54Times, 13)"
11:17:56 <ais523> somehow I think Wolfram Alpha has trouble using Mathematica
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14:13:02 <fizzie> It also does not want to tell me the amount of mountains in the world. That out-of-capacity message is funny, though. "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that... Wolfram|Alpha has temporarily exceeded its current maximum test load. See the live video feed of the Control Center >>"
14:22:06 <impomatic> Is it wierd that I have a collection of executable compressors?
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14:24:57 <oerjan> impomatic: all squeezed together in a small place, i assume
14:27:23 * oerjan has realized he can cut off one character from his /// token encoding, by discouraging empty replacements
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14:30:58 <impomatic> Does anyone have experience of fixing "Runtime Error 200" on old executables compiled with Turbo Pascal?
14:31:21 <ais523> what's the corresponding error message?
14:31:32 <ais523> I've used turbo pascal before
14:31:38 <ais523> but don't have the error message database memorise
14:31:46 <impomatic> I've got 6 exes I want to fix. TPpatch fixed 2, but not the other 4. I also found a TSR that's supposed to fix it, but it doesn't either.
14:31:59 <ais523> do you have the source?
14:32:45 <impomatic> That's all I get, Runtime Error 200 and an address. It means there's numeric overflow in a timing routine in the setup code, due to running on a computer thats too fast.
14:33:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_error_200
14:33:25 <impomatic> It affects most programs compiled with TP which use the screen library.
14:34:32 <impomatic> I've tried 2 of these programs: http://www.brain.uni-freiburg.de/~klaus/pascal/runerr200/download.html
14:34:57 <fizzie> Well, try more. (The tppatch thing is the only one I think I've used myself, and it worked in that case.)
14:35:15 <impomatic> I also tried using CPU Killer to slow down my computer, but it made me crash :-(
14:35:43 <ais523> <ais523> minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) <Wolfram Alpha> min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]]
14:37:03 <ais523> and in Mathematica, {}[[1]] refers to the first element of a zero-element list
14:37:19 <ais523> Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu with respect to such things
14:37:44 <fizzie> Though if you write "minimize x^2-(x+3)" you get a rather more reasonable answer.
14:37:55 <fizzie> What's that "x^2 Subtract[x+3]" mean anyway?
14:38:16 <ais523> fizzie: x to the power two, times the subtraction of x+3
14:39:27 <fizzie> What is "the subtraction of x+3" then?
14:39:29 <fizzie> Subtract::argr: Subtract called with 1 argument; 2 arguments are expected.
14:40:55 <fizzie> Nice function help text, though.
14:40:56 <fizzie> x - y is equivalent to x + (-1 * y).
14:41:25 <ais523> fizzie: Mathematica works the same way as Thutu behind the scenes
14:41:48 <ais523> so although the subtraction of one number makes no sense, Mathematica just leaves it literally in the answer
14:41:53 <ais523> and pattern-matches as much as it can elsewhere
14:42:13 <fizzie> Oh, yes. It's a strange way of parsing the English part, though.
14:43:50 <ais523> well, especially as it was parsed into meaningless mathematica
14:44:59 <fizzie> Heh. "five minus six" is 5-6, "five minus six plus one" somehow does 5-(6+1) which is a curious precedence, "five minus (six plus one)" is '5 Subtract[6+1]' and finally "five minus the sum of six and one" has input interpretation: "5 - ∑6⋀1" and no real result.
14:45:13 <ais523> I agree that the precedence is curious
14:46:00 <ais523> hmm... strange that Alpha don't have an opensearch tag yet
14:46:06 <ais523> so it can't be added to the firefox search box
14:46:47 <ais523> hmm... "6 times 9 in base 13" is working now
14:46:50 <ais523> and it was broken this morning
14:46:55 <ais523> I think Alpha must have been Cuiled
14:48:53 <impomatic> None of those patches work on these 4 files :-(
14:49:10 <fizzie> Running in dosbox (if it's a possibility) tends to slow things down, too.
14:50:21 <impomatic> I wanted to fix them and put them online.
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15:41:39 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the world's fastest sort ever (for a competition) was done using Java
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16:01:22 <ais523> and pretty hefty hardware, obviously
16:01:31 <ais523> the requirement was just to sort a petabyte of data
16:01:47 <ais523> key-value pairs, with 10-byte keys and 90-byte values
16:01:50 <ais523> and sorting into key order
16:04:51 * oerjan is surprised to learn that the techtinkering link on the wiki is not really spam
16:05:07 <oerjan> the edit looked so awfully generic it _could_ have been made by a spambot
16:05:40 <oerjan> i was so paranoid i opened the link in lynx, just in case :D
16:05:51 <impomatic> I suppose I ought to put an edit summary
16:05:52 <ais523> it was added by someone with the username "techtinkering"
16:06:06 <ais523> anyway, a meaningful edit summary certainly tones our spam radar down a lot
16:06:08 <ais523> as does being logged in
16:06:24 <impomatic> There's normally some interesting stuff on Lawrence's blog.
16:06:27 <oerjan> ais523: the username only reinforced my suspicion
16:06:43 <impomatic> Oh okay. I think I've added one of his links too.
16:06:51 <ais523> on the other hand, having a username means they got past the CAPTCHA
16:07:08 <ais523> which reduces the chance it's spam
16:07:19 <ais523> even though that's a trivial CAPTCHA to script around, most people couldn't be bothered
16:07:32 * oerjan probably registered before the CAPTCHA, so has forgotten all about it
16:07:51 <ais523> the CAPTCHA hits new user registrations, and anons who try to add links
16:07:59 <ais523> it keeps out the majority of confused spambots
16:08:17 <ais523> although spam not involving links gets through
16:08:33 <oerjan> ah yes i recall that brouhaha about those two insane researchers trying to save data on wikis
16:08:33 <ehird> 09:07 impomatic: Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes.
16:08:36 <ehird> it's not disappearing
16:08:59 <oerjan> they tried to chastise us for having a lousy CAPTCHA
16:08:59 <ehird> impomatic: geocities is just being read-onlied
16:09:05 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, that was aumusing
16:09:12 <ehird> they said sheesh we can break trivial captchas in like 2 seconds
16:09:19 <ehird> wanted to punch 'em for that
16:09:29 <ehird> 00:58 pikhq: Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album.
16:09:29 <ehird> 00:58 pikhq: That just sounds crappy.
16:09:30 <ehird> it's more horror vacui than bad mixing in this case
16:10:40 <fizzie> "You can continue to enjoy your web site and GeoCities services until later this year. -- We'll provide more details about closing GeoCities and how to save your site data this summer, and we will update the help center with more details at that time."
16:10:47 <fizzie> That doesn't necessary sound like just being read-onlied.
16:11:00 <ais523> I'll be upset if nobody mirrors the BancSTAR stuff
16:11:01 <fizzie> Though I guess they might be communicating elsewhere than just their faq page.
16:11:22 <oerjan> perhaps they only stopped new registrations?
16:11:28 <ehird> fizzie: no, it is read only
16:11:29 <fizzie> That's what they already did.
16:11:32 <ehird> I know this for a complete fact
16:11:32 <impomatic> ehird: from what I've read it looks like it's all disappearing.
16:11:36 <ehird> because I read the original announcement
16:11:43 <ehird> impomatic: if that is true it is a new development
16:11:54 <ehird> also, they'll never get away with it.
16:12:12 <fizzie> They've closed it for new users, and all I've seen about the future is "things will work until later this year", with no specifices.
16:12:12 <ehird> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/geocities/geocities-05.html
16:12:20 <impomatic> I've prepared mirrors for all of the Geocities Corewar sites. Now I'm working on the sites for some other programming games.
16:12:23 <ehird> it used to be just: your site will stay
16:12:28 <ais523> ehird: <ais523> minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) <Wolfram Alpha> min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]]
16:12:41 <ehird> impomatic: Just contact the archive.org guys. They could mirror all of geocities ;-)
16:12:48 <ehird> ais523: so, wolfram alpha's out now is it?
16:12:57 <ais523> as in, wolfram alpha's out
16:13:04 * ehird asks it "how is babby formed"
16:13:05 <ais523> and archive.org are scraping geocities as fast as they can
16:13:15 <ais523> and that's the wrong sort of question
16:13:24 <ehird> ais523: i don't care, it should know it
16:13:26 <ehird> it's on the internet
16:13:31 <ehird> also, how did you know about archive.org
16:13:33 <ais523> it doesn't use the internet, though
16:13:43 <ais523> ofc, that could be unreliable
16:13:46 <ehird> wolfram alpha's just sitting there loading
16:13:49 <ehird> KIND OF LIKE MATHEMATICA ALWAYS DOES
16:13:52 <ais523> it's Cuiled at the moment
16:13:54 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results »
16:13:56 <ais523> although intermittently
16:14:03 <fizzie> "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input" is a rather common result, sadly.
16:14:07 <impomatic> archive.org scraping misses a lot.
16:14:18 <ais523> Alpha doesn't use the Internet, I don't think
16:14:21 <oerjan> i tried asking "What is the second tallest mountain in the world", and it didn't understand completely. although it did suggest a related question that gave the right answer
16:14:22 <ais523> it just uses its approved databases
16:14:26 <ehird> impomatic: Erm, I think they're doing it specially
16:14:28 <ehird> i.e. with the site list?
16:14:29 <ais523> oerjan: I asked "shortest mountain", and got no result
16:14:40 <ais523> I want to know what the shortest mountain in its database is
16:14:48 <oerjan> ais523: yeah i saw that so tried a slightly more sensible one
16:14:54 <fizzie> ais523: It also doesn't know anything about "number of mountains".
16:14:59 <ais523> it wasn't an "I don't understand", it told me how it parsed the question, but not the answer
16:15:53 <impomatic> Even if it's in archive.org a proper mirror would be better. There's no proper search for the web archive, just retrieve by URL
16:15:57 <ais523> but the above garble I've pasted all over the place, including here twice, #IRP, and Slashdot, is beyond the how-could-they-manage-that stage
16:16:29 <ehird> <me> Wolfram Alpha, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
16:16:38 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> I interpreted that as "how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"
16:16:41 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> Result:
16:16:55 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> Next question?
16:16:56 <fizzie> And their natural language parsing is idiosyncratic. I can do "primes <= 100" to get a list of below-100 primes, but "sum of (primes <= 100)" gets "Input interpretation: π(100) | series representation" and a "Computation timed out" message, even though number-of-primes-less-than-100 is quite a lot different than sum-of-primes-less-than-100.
16:17:02 <ais523> ehird: yes, it does that sometimes
16:17:13 <oerjan> ehird: not even "ZOT!!!"? :(
16:18:31 <ehird> <me> sum of primes below 1000 <alpha> Assuming "sum" is a function property | Use as a sum instead <alpha> Interpretation: pi(NextPrime[1000, -1]) | series representation <alpha> Computation timed out.
16:18:39 <ehird> ais523: it's awful, isn't it?
16:18:48 <ais523> it's occasionally useful
16:18:56 <ehird> ais523: oh, and below the interpretation it says
16:19:02 <ehird> pi(x) is the number of primes less than or equal to x
16:19:03 <ais523> but it's written in Mathematica, which is part of the reason it's too slow
16:19:05 <ehird> which is, uh, not what I wanted!
16:19:12 * ehird uses as a sum instead
16:19:24 <ais523> and I get the feeling from using it that they just special-cased every possible query in existence
16:19:27 <ais523> rather than writing general code
16:20:11 <ehird> ais523: yep; I guessed that when Wolfram entered his own phrasings of queries when asked
16:20:20 <impomatic> archive.org seems to miss files when it archives a site.
16:20:30 <ehird> impomatic: it depends
16:20:37 * ehird tries sum of primes below 10, c'mon, you can do that
16:20:53 <fizzie> That pi(NextPrime[100, -1]) stuff is weird. It's "number of primes smaller than the largest prime below 100".
16:20:57 <ais523> I got it thinking for several minutes a while back with "lambda x return x"
16:21:05 <ais523> until it decided it didn't know what I meant
16:21:10 <fizzie> You get reasonable list of primes, though; I wonder why it doesn't generally sum things.
16:21:15 <ehird> "sum of primes below 10" times out.
16:21:25 <ehird> primes < 10 works, though.
16:21:46 * ehird asks it what infinity is, gets too-much-load-lol
16:21:48 <fizzie> Sure, but it's not computing the sum of that list; it's trying to do a series representation for pi there.
16:21:57 <ehird> fizzie: yes, which is retarded
16:22:12 <ais523> heh, it had "did you mean 'sum primes below'"
16:22:18 <ais523> which is also an I-don't-understand output
16:22:30 * ehird goes to slashdot to read the comments, and gets distracted
16:22:31 <ehird> "DJ Danger Mouse famously fought with EMI over his Beatles/Jay-Z mashup, 'The Grey Album,' and now seems to be battling with the label again. Rather than release his latest album and face legal issues with EMI, Techdirt is reporting that Danger Mouse will be selling a blank CD-R along with lots of artwork, and buyers will be responsible for finding the music themselves (yes, it's findable on the internet) and burning the CD."
16:22:56 <fizzie> I tried "number of retards", and it's telling me just about everything about the English word retard, with a pretty synonym network graph and everything.
16:23:09 <ais523> the synonym network graph is ridiculous
16:23:17 <ais523> in that, only about four of the nodes are labeled
16:23:20 <ais523> and they all seem irrelevant
16:23:24 * ehird asks it "wolfram's ego in nanodijkstras"
16:23:38 <ehird> actually, you could probably measure it in dijkstras
16:23:48 <ais523> more or less than 1 billion, i wonder?
16:24:23 <ehird> bah, it doesn't understand me
16:24:32 <ehird> does it accept mathematica as input, I wonder?
16:24:57 <ais523> it manages "sum ((a to the n) over n factorial)"
16:25:13 <ehird> ais523: if you install flash, you can watch wolfram people look at vague statistics of the site in realtime: http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e
16:25:23 <ehird> one of them is standing up
16:25:28 <ehird> ooh someone came in with a cup!
16:25:33 <ehird> this is *exciting*
16:25:37 <ais523> due to being slashdotted
16:25:50 <ais523> and actually, I have Gnash installed nowadays, although I have it blocked by default by NoScript
16:25:53 <ais523> and I've never got it to work
16:26:17 <fizzie> Heh. "zeroes of riemann zeta function" => "Input interpretation: solve ζ(s) = 0. Solution over the reals: s = -2n and n ≥ 1 and n ∊ ℤ." But that's not the interesting part!
16:26:26 <ehird> ais523: I am not surprised, because Gnash does not work on anything.
16:26:39 <ehird> You could just block all flash + Adobe's player if you're using the evils anyway.
16:26:46 <ehird> "It is receiving universal praise... ...from all the commenters on Wolfram's blog [wolframalpha.com]. It is actually rather amusing to read through the long list of overwhelmingly positive comments." — /.
16:27:02 <ais523> so I get to shout at websites claiming their Flash isn't portable
16:27:15 <ehird> it's not their fault Gnash doesn't implement all of Flash
16:27:17 <ais523> and I refuse to install Adobe's Flash, not because it's closed-source, but because it's massively buggy and insecure
16:27:19 <ais523> ehird: and yes, I know
16:27:34 <ehird> ais523: and yes, but if you only enable it on things like video sites, it should be fine
16:28:18 <fizzie> Adobe's flash broke on me; all indicators point that the plugin's installed just fine, and it's also working just fine, but all flash content is just a translucent box. Wonder what's up with that.
16:28:33 <ehird> When we launch Wolfram|Alpha this weekend, it will be running Mathematica on about 10,000 processor cores, using gridMathematica-based parallelism. And every single query that comes into the system will be served with webMathematica.
16:28:42 <ehird> 10,000 cores and they still can't handle mathematica
16:28:55 <ais523> Mathematica is fundamentally inefficient, IMO
16:29:10 <ais523> making it useless for serious computation unless you have a Wolfram-style server farm
16:29:11 <ehird> "I want to have Wolfram Alpha’s baby!" — W|A blog
16:29:26 <ehird> "Wow, thanks to Wolfram Alpha I can quit my job, divorce my wife, sell all my possessions, shave my entire body, gain that frontal lobotomy I’ve always wanted, and become one with the computer!"
16:29:40 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm sorry, which reality are you currently residing in?
16:29:41 <ais523> it works very well for things that the Wolfram people thought of
16:29:47 <ais523> which != things that I want to do with it
16:29:51 <ehird> I think you might be trapped in an internet-based pocket of reality distortion field
16:30:16 <fizzie> Also the comments in the justin.tv stream have seemed universally positive, although I've only looked at about ten of them. But the ten have been things like "this is more important than putting a man on the moon" and "you did what is the dream of human mankind".
16:30:29 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't try to use it as an English compiler like you guys mostly apparently have.
16:30:44 <Deewiant> I haven't managed to break it with machine-readable input yet.
16:30:49 <oerjan> fizzie: lots of dripping sarcasm? :D
16:30:49 <ais523> hmm... it gave a pretty good answer for "refractive index of glass"
16:30:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee, I wonder why we're giving it mathematical statements as basic English? OH! MAYBE BECAUSE WOLFRAM DID!
16:31:03 <ais523> Deewiant: I've been trying to give it appropriate input
16:31:07 <ais523> rephrasing if necessary
16:31:12 <ais523> even so, I can't get it to work half the time
16:31:15 <ais523> it seems to be very patchy
16:31:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Not all the time, he didn't.
16:31:45 <Deewiant> Besides, I don't think what the marketing says is relevant.
16:31:48 <ehird> <me> average size of human anus <W|A> I'm not sure what to do with your input.
16:31:51 <ehird> That's what she said.
16:31:54 <ais523> for specific things like "fifteenth mersenne prime", it works fine
16:31:57 <ais523> but is clearly special-cased
16:32:09 <Deewiant> I'm very impressed that it works as well as it does.
16:32:10 <ais523> as in, it has an "nth mersenne prime" sort of query
16:32:12 <ehird> "avg. human height" works, that's a start. 5'4" apparently.
16:32:25 <ais523> so it's just the usual wolframming of special-casing everything
16:32:25 <ehird> Along with its conversions
16:32:35 <ehird> It tells me the average human height ... in electromagnetic frequency range
16:32:45 <ehird> VHF (very high frequency) | meter band, apparently.
16:32:54 <ais523> you'd be somewhere between microwave and radio
16:32:58 <ais523> if you were used as a wavelength
16:33:20 <ehird> <me> tallest human <W|A> info on the tallest human ever
16:33:25 <ehird> <me> tallest living human <W|A> LOL WUT
16:33:36 <ehird> I predict the source code is a gigantic hash table
16:33:46 <ais523> ehird: that was my impression too
16:33:50 <oerjan> em, literally LOL WUT?
16:33:53 <ais523> which explains why it's so long
16:34:06 <ehird> ais523: what's so long?
16:34:13 <ais523> the source code to Alpha
16:34:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "intelligent" input parsing was very hyped, though. And I still haven't gotten the sum of primes smaller than a constant out of it yet. Admittedly "sum of the first ten primes" worked very well; but why then not "sum of the primes below 10"?
16:34:19 <ais523> it's apparently over 2 million lines of Mathematica
16:34:25 <ais523> <ais523> elite hacker in lolspeak <Alpha> ?
16:34:43 <ais523> just thought it was a fun conversion
16:34:55 <ehird> <me> infinity <W|A> Input: ∞
16:35:29 <ehird> <me> 1/0 <W|A> I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...
16:35:43 <ais523> the I'm sorry dave is a general overload
16:35:43 <ehird> ais523: it's the load error
16:35:45 <Deewiant> I'm used to hype and have come to ignore it when evaluating things.
16:35:52 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but
16:35:57 <ehird> he lives on this kind of hype
16:35:58 <ais523> I'm glad to know that it handles "tcp port 8080" correctly
16:36:06 <ais523> which is one query that broke in the demonstration they gave me a while back
16:36:12 <ehird> W|A might work if everyone had their own cluster for it
16:36:13 <ais523> apparently because it wasn't in the database then
16:36:23 <ehird> ais523: I bet that's the only one that works
16:36:38 <ehird> "Oh shit, we missed one -- {"tcp port 8080","..."}"
16:36:39 <fizzie> ais523: It doesn't seem to know anything about ICMP, though; "Did you mean: scamp".
16:36:56 <ais523> <ais523> tcp port 64928 <Alpha> (no known assignments)
16:37:01 <ehird> <me> average human penis length <W|A> ?
16:37:14 <ehird> I can't even think how to phrase that differently
16:37:33 <ais523> clearly Alpha doesn't have porn in its database yet
16:37:39 <ais523> I therefore predict it will be a massive failure
16:37:49 <fizzie> Also "UDP port 22; Typical port assignment: ssh: SSH Remote Login Protocol". I guess it's just reading someone's /etc/services to me.
16:38:07 <ais523> so why didn't it get 64928?
16:38:11 <ehird> <me> oldest porn star <W|A> Did you mean: oldest star; Astronomy: star?
16:38:48 <ais523> <me> udp port 80 <Alpha> http: World Wide Web HTTP
16:38:58 <ais523> someone ought to give Alpha a lesson on the difference between TCP and UDP
16:39:00 <fizzie> ais523: What's 64928 then?
16:39:07 <ais523> fizzie: INTERCAL theft server
16:39:21 <ehird> <me> average size of star <W|A> Did you mean size of star
16:39:31 * ehird asks it size of star to figure out wtf that is
16:39:38 <ehird> "size of star" is "100 brightest stars | sizes"
16:40:03 <oerjan> average size of star is not very well defined
16:40:14 <ehird> But "size of star" being "100 brightest stars | sizes"?
16:40:17 <ehird> That's just wrong.
16:40:17 <Slereah> You could, you know, just do an average
16:40:35 <oerjan> Slereah: no, because you don't know all stars
16:40:43 <ais523> an average of all the ones in the database
16:40:49 <ehird> ais523: click the source information, you get Wolfram as the two primary sources even though they took the data from someone els
16:40:58 <oerjan> and the database will be biased towards larger stars
16:41:04 <ais523> ehird: I didn't realise that...
16:41:11 <oerjan> because they are easier to discover
16:41:58 <ais523> it doesn't like "sum of (udp port)"
16:42:00 <ehird> W|A is approximately as useless as I imagined
16:42:06 <ais523> I think Alpha's problem is that it isn't actually doing computations
16:42:11 <ehird> ais523: why did you make it seem sort of cool when we asked?
16:42:14 <ais523> as in, it isn't combining different parts of itself
16:42:23 <ehird> <W|A> Assuming "wolfram alpha" is a historical event | Use as an internet domain instead
16:42:24 <oerjan> ehird: aren't you glad we aren't close to the singularity yet? :)
16:42:27 <ais523> ehird: because Wolfram fooled me too in the demonstrations, a bit
16:42:29 <ehird> [["wolfram alpha" is a historical event]]
16:42:34 <ehird> AHAHAHAHAHAahadhdfjkdhgjkfdg
16:42:36 <fizzie> ais523: Based on http://isc.sans.org/port.html?port=64928 eevil hackurs are trying to use that server quite often, then.
16:42:51 <ehird> oerjan: wait, why is that a good thing?
16:43:00 <ehird> the singularity, by definition, has to be pretty good at what W|A is trying to do
16:43:30 <ais523> fizzie: yes, they're obviously trying to steal data from your computer
16:43:35 <ais523> that's what a theft server does, by definition
16:43:42 <oerjan> ehird: and the singularity could be pretty bad, therefore it is good that W|A isn't managing it
16:43:51 <fizzie> It won't be so good for the humans who have to live as HEAT MINERS under the singularitic robotic overlords.
16:43:58 <ehird> W|A isn't malicious, just crap.
16:44:03 <ehird> since it's crap, it isn't singularity-level
16:44:28 <ais523> how do you know it isn't malicious?
16:44:36 <ais523> it isn't competent enough to tell if it's malicious or not
16:44:37 <oerjan> ehird: i never said anything about W|A being malicious
16:44:41 <ehird> ais523: it's too stupid to be malicious
16:44:54 <ais523> <ais523> select.intercal.org.uk
16:44:59 <ais523> and Alpha's processing that at the moment
16:45:07 <ais523> it gives varying amounts of output on the same query
16:45:17 * ehird tries 1 2 3 plus 4 5 6
16:45:24 <ehird> let's see if it can do array computation
16:45:31 <ehird> "Assuming multiplication | Use a list instead"
16:45:33 <ais523> the first time it tried, all it did was say that its location was in Edinborough, and which company hosted it
16:45:54 <ais523> "1 2 (3+4) 5 6", let me guess?
16:45:57 <ehird> ais523: you won't believe this—
16:46:18 <ais523> there's a link to the printable text version
16:46:26 <ehird> i'm loading the page
16:46:29 <ehird> i went onto another thing
16:46:49 <fizzie> ehird: You can do "{1,2,3}+{4,5,6}" if you want to get {5,7,9}... that's in Mathematica syntax. But a web-interface for Mathematica isn't all that kewl.
16:47:06 <ais523> fizzie: what would Mathematica return for {1,2,3}*{4,5,6}?
16:47:08 <ehird> ais523: 2 (3 + 4 x 5 x 6)
16:47:26 <ehird> ais523: but if you ask it for the mathematica, it says 1 2 (3 + 4 5 6)
16:47:26 <ais523> ehird: ok, that's some parsing trouble
16:47:34 <ais523> and it's interpreted 1 2 as 1 times 2
16:47:38 <ais523> and simplified it before showing it to you
16:47:43 <fizzie> It also computes 5+7+9=21, mean value 7, vector length = sqrt(155), normalized vector, pie chart, triangle with those sides, cuboid with that size, and corresponding spherical coordinates.
16:47:53 * ehird uses as a list instead
16:47:56 <fizzie> In[3]:= {1,2,3}*{4,5,6}
16:48:08 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:48:08 <ais523> why didn't it dot-product, I wonder/
16:48:18 <ehird> ais523: if you tell it to interpret "1 2 3 plus 4 5 6" as a list, it parses as {1, 2, 3 + 4 x 5 x 6}
16:48:31 <ais523> "1 2 3 + 4 5 6" didn't give me a choice of interpretation
16:48:43 <fizzie> ais523: {1,2,3}.{4,5,6} does the dot product. Well, it's a dot.
16:48:45 <ehird> it then gives me the total, 126, the mean, 42, the vector length, 123.02, the normalized vector and the spherical coordinates
16:48:59 <ehird> I just want you to do {1+4,2+5,3+6} dammit!
16:49:15 <fizzie> ehird: Well, do it in the Mathematica syntax like I said, then.
16:49:23 <ehird> fizzie: i have mathematica
16:49:23 <fizzie> If you really need that sum, I mean.
16:49:29 <ehird> i don't need W|A to use mathematica
16:50:00 <fizzie> ehird: You can write "{1,2,3} plus {4,5,6}" to Alpha if you insist on using something that doesn't directly plug in to Mathematica.
16:50:27 <ehird> I don't think being able to replace + with plus is a great advantage.
16:50:32 * ehird clicks its music example
16:50:38 <ehird> The page “C E G Bb D F# A - Wolfram|Alpha” has content of MIME type “audio/midi&s=63”. Because you don’t have a plug-in installed for this MIME type, this content can’t be displayed.
16:50:42 <ehird> FFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLL
16:50:45 <ais523> it managed "solve a to the power b equals b to the power a"
16:50:58 <ais523> also, it returns a non-HTML page in response to a query?
16:51:09 <ehird> ais523: i clicked play sound
16:51:12 <ehird> on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=C+E+G+Bb+D+F%23+A
16:51:15 <ehird> but it should be audio/midi
16:51:19 <ehird> it tacked &s=63 on the end
16:51:42 <ehird> ais523: did they even test it, that's what I'm wondering
16:51:51 <ehird> surely playing sound on every browser would be part of their tests
16:51:56 <ehird> it's not like safari/webkit have a small marketshare
16:52:04 <ais523> would they have had time to test it?
16:52:14 <ais523> I mean, it's two million lines long...
16:52:23 <ais523> and probably coverage for any given query is very low
16:52:25 <ehird> ais523: incidentally, their text-as-images ... I reckon that's freetype rendering
16:52:31 <ehird> I wonder if there are any licensing issues with it?
16:52:34 <ehird> probably not, but I hope so
16:52:44 <ais523> it's probably mathematica OutputForm
16:52:48 <ehird> it'd be amusing if they had to GPL it
16:52:54 <ehird> ais523: i mean the actual font rendering
16:53:02 <ehird> it's freetype's, i.e. what's used on X11
16:53:52 <ehird> [[It couldn't tell me:
16:53:52 <ehird> "Who is Luke Skywalker's father?"
16:53:53 <ehird> You've got more chance of logging into reddit on a comments page than you have of getting a good answer from this engine.]]
16:53:56 <ehird> [[Why should it? Use Google for your dumb fiction questions.]]
16:54:00 <ehird> yeah information about anything that's not 500% real is useless
16:54:14 <ais523> information about fictional things is unlikely to be in the database
16:54:27 <fizzie> "integer solutions of x^3+y^3=z^3" => "Input interpretation: solve | x^3+y^3 = z^3 | over the integers; Result: z = Root[-x^3 - y^3 + #1^3 &, 1] and (x|y|z) ∊ ℤ". The maths it do is very Mathematicay.
16:54:37 <ehird> ais523: I reckon that the sweet spot for Wolfram Alpha is being a souped up Google Calculator
16:54:46 <ehird> if it was marketed as that, everything would have gone swimmingly
16:54:57 <ais523> fizzie: the maths clearly does it via Mathematica
16:55:01 <ais523> as you can tell when it goes wrong
16:55:12 * ehird asks it 700 dollars in roman numerals
16:55:16 <ehird> <W|A> Input interpretation:
16:55:22 <ehird> it doesn't even interpret it!
16:55:39 <ehird> it interpreted it okay
16:55:46 <ehird> convert $700 (US dollars) to Roman numerals
16:56:12 <ais523> ehird: yep, Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu on unexpected input
16:56:18 <ais523> because they work the same way behind the scenes
16:56:28 <ehird> ais523: but that's not what I typed in
16:56:31 <ehird> it parsed it perfectly
16:56:34 <ehird> the exact way it should
16:56:37 <ehird> it just then didn't evaluate it
16:56:55 <ais523> it'll have converted it to a Mathematica expression
16:56:58 <ehird> >Interpreting "MXLCIX" as "mlcit"
16:57:09 <ehird> a stock simple, apparently
16:57:19 <ehird> it's in euros, and I see Paris
16:57:26 <ais523> ehird: "XLC" isn't a valid roman numeral excerpt
16:57:27 <Deewiant> MXLCIX isn't a valid Roman numeral
16:57:33 <ehird> so presumably it thinks MXLCIX is the stock symbol of a french company, awesome
16:57:34 <ais523> try correcting it to "MCXLIX"
16:57:38 <ehird> I just wanted to know how it'd react
16:57:48 <fizzie> The fact that you get all kinds of incidental information is at least nifty, if not useful. "$700 in zloty" gives a good input interpretation ("covert $700 (US dollars) to Polish zlotych"), the result, but also: local currency conversion (in euros), exchange history for the last year with min+max, and value of $700 in random additional currencies.
16:57:51 <ehird> still, MXLCIX→mlcit is ridiculous
16:58:21 <ehird> ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=MCXLIX ← it seems to think that if I'm using roman numerals I care about mayan, babylonian and greek numerals too
16:58:25 <Deewiant> It's just using some kind of basic Hamming distance type measure to do correction
16:58:53 <ehird> "It also couldn't express Wolfram's ego in milliDijkstras" —reddit
16:58:57 <ehird> great minds think alike
16:59:31 <ehird> "miles in beardseconds"
16:59:33 <ehird> 1 miles = 321 868 800 000 beardseconds
16:59:34 <fizzie> I don't mind the "useless very vaguely related stuff" section of the answer; at least that's something novel.
16:59:37 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
16:59:52 <ais523> why do people keep comparing it to Google/
16:59:58 * ehird asks "average bluntness of knives"
17:00:00 <ehird> ais523: not google
17:00:19 <ehird> google calculator is like Alpha without the database; it just knows lots of units and conversions and such
17:00:28 <ehird> also, it parses way better :-P
17:00:43 <ehird> <W|A> wat is knive
17:00:49 <Deewiant> Simple things are easy to parse.
17:00:57 <oerjan> the smaller the realm of knowledge, the easier to parse
17:01:07 <ehird> sure, but google parses better than W|A regardless
17:01:25 <Deewiant> Google calculator can't handle "$700 in €", it wants "700 $ in €", for instance.
17:01:41 <ehird> Deewiant: google calculator doesn't do symbols
17:01:59 <ehird> and it does words better than W|A
17:01:59 <Deewiant> ehird: So how exactly does it parse better than W|A?
17:02:09 <ais523> Alpha mostly does well at "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha"
17:02:17 <ais523> but its drawing of the letter is wrong
17:03:30 <ais523> Alpha has Alexa information in, it seems
17:03:55 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure it considers "in" an infix operator with precedence and everything.
17:03:57 <ehird> ais523: heh, "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha"'s encodings has Unicode, HTML and then ITALICS MATHEMATICA
17:04:16 <ehird> Only Mathematica is worthy of obliquity.
17:04:38 <Deewiant> pikhq: Really? To me it seems like it just checks whether the input has "in X" at the end and then converts to X if it does
17:04:40 * ais523 visits http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolframalpha.com%2Finput%2F%3Fi%3Dwolframalpha.com
17:04:52 <ais523> that seems to have stumped it
17:04:54 <Deewiant> "1 in miles + 2 km" -> no results
17:04:55 <ais523> as in, it's stuck loading
17:05:03 <ais523> does it get stuck loading for anyone else?
17:05:15 <ehird> ais523: try reloading
17:05:18 <ehird> it works instantly
17:05:19 <pikhq> Deewiant: Doesn't parse right. ;)
17:05:25 <ais523> what did that query return?
17:05:31 <fizzie> Worked for me too. Although I don't quite get what's the HTML element hierarchy is useful for.
17:05:33 <ehird> ais523: a bunch of info about the URL and domain
17:05:40 <ehird> and, uh, a graph of the html hierarchy
17:05:43 <ehird> where you can't see the tags
17:05:43 <Deewiant> pikhq: "in" isn't much of an operator if you can only use it at the end of the input :-P
17:05:49 <ehird> so it's just a pretty drawing
17:05:59 <ehird> ais523: apparently, W|A is the 4069th site on Alexa. Hype, I suppose.
17:06:08 <ehird> so close to 4096, too
17:06:09 <fizzie> 710000 daily page views.
17:06:12 <ehird> that's a lovely round number
17:06:13 * ais523 adds one more layer of recursion
17:06:34 <ais523> unfortunately, it seems to use AJAX for returning the actual results
17:06:47 <ehird> ais523: it loads a new page and then uses ajax
17:06:53 <ehird> ais523: OTOH, I've seen that done before
17:07:01 <ehird> so presumably it's a webMathematica thing
17:07:06 <ais523> so even if I could somehow make a quine, it wouldn't send Alpha into an infinite loop
17:07:08 <Deewiant> Not really pointless, that lets it give you partial results
17:07:16 <ehird> Deewiant: but it doesn't
17:07:23 <ehird> all the results come more or less at once
17:07:39 <ehird> unless you only get the input then it takes 5 hours to load the results
17:07:42 <Deewiant> That just means they went to the same cluster node or w/e
17:08:02 <fizzie> What? "height of 10", interpreted as "height | 10" gives me two results. Distribution of human heights (8962 people, NHANES 2006 study), and one panel with header "Test information:" and contents "test panels | physical examination". I don't really know what that means.
17:08:35 <ehird> I think that W|A may make more sense on drugs.
17:09:05 <ehird> oerjan: I'm going to write a fast /// interp in C
17:09:16 <Deewiant> And on a refresh, I get nothing. Hmph.
17:09:18 <ehird> do you think anyone will care if I don't support \0 in programs? :-P
17:09:38 <ais523> and Deewiant would iff you claimed standards compliance
17:09:46 <ehird> ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?"
17:09:52 <ehird> (that was regarding anmaster)
17:10:19 <fizzie> I tried to ask for the heights of 10 tallest mountains, in preparation to trying to get the average of that list. I mean, it's supposed to be able to compute things from that data. (Also the ten tallest mountains table showed only 5, and when I clicked on "more" the units went from metres to feet.)
17:10:22 <ais523> how many seconds exactly was that/
17:10:31 <ais523> AnMaster: <ehird> ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?"
17:10:46 <AnMaster> what is it that you need to handle \0 in
17:11:11 <AnMaster> I don't know if it is legal in slashes.
17:11:13 <ais523> slashes + IRC = I need to concentrate more
17:11:26 <ehird> \0s in programs are legal in ///, but I don't think anyone uses them
17:11:30 <ehird> since you have to put a literal \0 in a file
17:11:35 <ehird> I might just use length-tracking strings anyway
17:11:43 <ehird> btw, mmap doesn't load the whole file usually, does it?
17:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you probably should handle it, but I'm not really interested in slashes.
17:11:48 <Deewiant> Mycology contains a literal \0; surely you'd want to run your slashes interp on it
17:11:50 <ehird> you have to read manually for that, right?
17:12:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait. A befunge interpreter in slashes?
17:12:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd have to encode it anyway
17:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it loads the file as it is required usually. Implementation defined.
17:12:48 <fizzie> Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit.
17:13:16 <Deewiant> brainfuck: Did you mean: brainerd
17:13:22 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit. <-- where was that from.
17:13:30 <ehird> AnMaster: wolfram alpha
17:13:37 <Deewiant> W|A, that is to say, WolframAlpha.
17:13:42 <ehird> AnMaster: needs JS
17:13:51 <ehird> Deewiant: today at 00:00 GMT.
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I can add a temp exception
17:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, it's cra
17:14:14 <ehird> Deewiant: eh, dunno; we didn't talk about it yesterday
17:14:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: 2009-05-15 is what it itself says.
17:14:19 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much
17:14:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's fairly useless
17:14:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't think it's that crap.
17:14:33 <ehird> Deewiant's bonkers, ignore him
17:14:35 <Deewiant> It's a web-interface to Mathematica, which in itself is very cool.
17:14:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: There already was a web-interface to Mathematica, wasn't there? Not open, though.
17:14:51 <ais523> not really, a web-interface to Malbolge would almost be more useful
17:14:53 <ehird> it's just an online REPL...
17:14:55 <AnMaster> How many people live in Sweden? -> Result: 9.12 million people (2007 estimate)
17:15:03 <Deewiant> ehird: Cool in the sense that you don't have to pay $1000 to get at it.
17:15:04 <AnMaster> that one seems to work at least.
17:15:14 <ehird> Deewiant: strange, I didn't have to do that either
17:15:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: The openness is the good bit.
17:15:30 <ehird> I had to break the law, but that's better than breaking your head against a wall when your queries keep timing out
17:15:36 <fizzie> Admittedly a *free* online Mathematica is nice. But it is a bit limited as to how much you can play with the results.
17:15:48 <AnMaster> it says it has exceeded the test load
17:15:48 <ehird> you can't use it like real mathematica at all
17:15:52 <ehird> AnMaster: so reload.
17:15:59 <ehird> it's the TOO MANY PEOPLE ASKING ME THINKS AAAAAAA page
17:16:00 <Deewiant> Certainly, but most of my uses of Mathematica /are/ just one-liners every now and then.
17:16:07 <ehird> even though they have 10,000 cores
17:16:13 <ehird> they just can't handle the internets
17:16:14 <Deewiant> If I had a Mathematica-bot on IRC I wouldn't use the real program at all, probably.
17:16:28 <ehird> Deewiant: but the pretty output and sounds!
17:16:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i, don't know? it's not, for me
17:16:45 <ehird> upgrade, your browser, or, computer
17:16:50 <Deewiant> ehird: I rarely graph and I don't think I've ever got sounds out of it. :-P
17:17:04 <ehird> Deewiant: you can listen to the reimann zeta function!
17:17:14 <fizzie> What's about the pretty output? Plot[x^2,{x,0,10}] works just fine in W|A.
17:17:20 <ehird> fizzie: he said IRC bot
17:17:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: That was about the IRC bot.
17:18:26 <ehird> http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Front.jpg ← this is what silent computers looked like in 2003
17:18:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: data: URIs so you can "open in your browser". (Packing all the pretty graphics in <512 base-64 encoded characters is left as an exercise.)
17:18:46 <ehird> "The speed holes on the side make the computer go faster."
17:18:58 <ehird> http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Insides.jpg
17:19:10 <ehird> 97 divided by x is 22 plus x?
17:19:30 <Deewiant> It's their first release and it's been at least on /. and all over IRC.
17:19:31 <ehird> But yeah, it can solve that.
17:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, "solve for x" was what I intended
17:19:43 <AnMaster> (%i3) solve([97 / x = 22 + x], [x]);
17:19:43 <AnMaster> (%o3) [x=-sqrt(218)-11,x=sqrt(218)-11]
17:19:46 <ehird> Alternate form: False
17:19:49 <ehird> ais523: that's a new error
17:20:04 <ais523> ehird: is that an error?
17:20:12 <ehird> ais523: I think so...
17:20:17 <ais523> x = x + 1 is equivalent to false
17:20:28 <ehird> ais523: I was saying "solve for x".
17:20:32 <fizzie> Deewiant was the faster.
17:20:41 <ehird> Whereby the output would be {}
17:20:46 <ehird> but that's not False
17:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, maxima returns an empty list for "no solutions"
17:21:04 <ehird> x/y = x+y for x = -4, y = 2.
17:21:16 <ehird> Also y = 1/2 (-x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)), -x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)!=0
17:21:16 <fizzie> ehird: You can write "solve x=x+1" and you get "Result: (no solutions exist)".
17:21:22 <ehird> And y = 1/2 (sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x), sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x!=0
17:21:58 <AnMaster> why can't you copy paste from alpha
17:22:14 <ehird> AnMaster: text in images.
17:22:21 <ehird> x/(y*x) = x+(y^2)/3 gives some funcomplex results.
17:22:21 <fizzie> Clicking on the image gives a "copyable plaintext" thing.
17:22:26 <ehird> y = ((1+i sqrt(3)) x)/(2^(2/3) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))-((1-i sqrt(3)) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))/(2 2^(1/3))
17:22:57 <ehird> ais523: it's quite fun for solving things, it seems
17:23:02 <ehird> although that's not very computational-knowledgy
17:23:10 <AnMaster> one way to handle the load would be caching results. Since it is likely that many people will all try the same shortly after each other. At least it seems so from reading this channel :P
17:23:18 <ais523> ehird: no, that's just refl into mathematica
17:23:31 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, but a nicer syntax.
17:23:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it turns out that the links they had for communicating between servers didn't scale properly
17:23:41 <ais523> and they only found out a few hours before release
17:23:42 <ehird> more mathematical.
17:24:06 <ais523> probably something to do with the protocol or the routing
17:24:08 <ehird> they're probably using wifi.
17:24:14 <ehird> it'd be a very wolfram thing to do
17:24:48 <AnMaster> why does it use pictures even for stuff like "i is the imaginary unit" or such
17:24:52 <fizzie> Haha. If you do something like "integrate x^2+x+1", the indefinite integral result has a "show steps" button, which will give a step-by-step solution with comments and everything.
17:24:59 <fizzie> Many a high-school student will love that thing. :p
17:25:08 <ehird> it seems that you can only solve for one variable
17:25:12 <ehird> AnMaster: because it sux
17:25:17 <ais523> wow, "derivative of zeta function" gives a really bad result in Alpha compared to "derivative of gamma function"
17:25:42 * ehird solve x/y = z, z = x*2
17:25:54 <ehird> y = 1/2 and z = 2 x and x!=0
17:26:01 <Deewiant> fizzie: That works? I tried it earlier and it always said "no more information" or whatever
17:26:01 <ehird> also x = 0 and z = 0 and y!=0, but that's unfun
17:26:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, it worked for that particular example, anyway.
17:26:51 <Deewiant> Doesn't work for me; "No more results available."
17:27:04 <pikhq> 1 2/y=z2x*=x0=!&& , you mean?
17:27:33 * ehird solve x+y=infinity, x!=infinity, y!=infinity
17:27:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I get: http://pastebin.com/m245f8c18
17:27:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: (That's the copyable plaintext version.)
17:27:48 <ehird> Result: (no solutions exist)
17:28:06 <ais523> anyone tried an SQL injection in there, btw?
17:28:23 <AnMaster> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:28:26 <ais523> obviously, it wouldn't work because it isn't even going directly into a database being escaped
17:28:29 <ehird> ais523: they'll use mathematica databse, clearly
17:28:31 <ehird> AnMaster: try aleph_0
17:28:35 <ais523> AnMaster: Mathematica doesn't know about different sorts of infinity
17:28:45 <ehird> it has infinity and complex infinity
17:28:47 <AnMaster> ehird " * Did you mean:aleppo"
17:28:53 <ehird> <me> solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x <W|A> x = -479^(1/(n-1)) and y = n and n>=2 and (n-1)/2 element Z
17:29:15 <fizzie> ais523: Entering "'; DROP TABLE AllKnowledgeInTheWorld; --" gives me the expected "?" reply, but also: "Related inputs to try: Chemistry: All".
17:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird, tried that, returns Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:29:32 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, try stuffs. :P
17:29:59 <ais523> one thing that annoys me is how the loading bars are not actually loading bars
17:30:00 <ehird> ais523: is there a way to get it to give some concrete solutions?
17:30:03 <ais523> just animations to look pretty
17:30:04 <ehird> instead of a list of constraints
17:30:04 <AnMaster> "solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x <W|A> x = -479^(1/(n-1))" works. but not the "and ...." bit.
17:30:07 <ehird> and really? EURGH!
17:30:13 <AnMaster> solve | {x+y<y,x y<x,x^y = 479 x<BitOr[A,W]>x = -479^(1/(-1+n))}
17:30:13 <ehird> so it has the data while you wait?
17:30:22 <ehird> AnMaster: ... <W|A> is Wolfram Alpha.
17:30:27 <ehird> my query was: solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x
17:30:41 <pikhq> One thing that annoys me about Wolfram... Mathematica? How dare it not be a Lisp?
17:30:51 <AnMaster> ehird, thought it was some math stuff I didn't know :P
17:30:58 <ais523> pikhq: it's Thutu with a massive standard library and a slightly less powerful regex syntax
17:31:02 <pikhq> I mean, hell. Look at Maxima. Mmm, Common Lisp.
17:31:20 <pikhq> And it's libre & gratis. Tasty.
17:31:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, though it can't do all the stuff. Like play sounds.
17:31:31 <ehird> ais523: how can you get a list of results instead of constraints? do you know
17:31:40 <pikhq> ... Who needs it to play sounds?
17:31:53 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure it can; I thought you could stick Lisp code into its REPL.
17:32:09 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:32:19 <ehird> ais523: do you not know?
17:32:30 <ais523> although substituting a value would be one method
17:32:37 <ais523> as in, by hand in the query
17:32:45 <ehird> i just want it to give me values, since I don't know them ;-)
17:33:12 <pikhq> LMAO... A Usenet copying group is suing the Dutch RIAA equivalent.
17:33:45 <pikhq> They claim that their activities are perfectly legal, and something like... The Dutch RIAA is slandering them?
17:34:03 <ehird> ais523: ah, it can't figureout any solutions it seems
17:34:12 <ehird> so we get the silent treatment but it'll give us the constraints needed
17:34:21 <ehird> probably the numbers don't exist
17:34:53 <ehird> In[5]:= Reduce[{x + y < y, x y < x, x^y == 479 x}, {x, y}, Reals]
17:34:53 <ehird> Out[5]= 1/2 (-1 + C[1]) \[Element] Integers && C[1] >= 2 &&
17:34:54 <ehird> x == -479^((1/(-1 + C[1]))) && y == C[1]
17:35:11 <ehird> no, that's just the W|A output
17:35:12 <fizzie> Alpha's output is prettier, though.
17:36:26 <fizzie> But you do have an infinite number of solutions there. I mean, it's just "x = f(n), y = n, n >= 2, (n-1)/2 is integer", you can substitute n=3, n=5, .. anything there.
17:36:32 <AnMaster> integrate (dx+2)/dy = 4*x + 2*x/3
17:36:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to get W|A or Mathematica to do it easily without any extra manual typing, though.
17:36:50 <ehird> fizzie: Oh. Bit boring.
17:36:58 <ehird> I thought my challenge was sufficiently... challenging.
17:37:06 <ehird> <me> solve x+y = 478*x, y^x = 7777+x*(x*y)
17:37:09 <ehird> <W|A> x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x
17:37:19 <ehird> I deem x "ehird's number".
17:37:31 <ehird> Why? It looks irrational.
17:37:41 <ehird> (Note: it's probably not irrational)
17:37:50 <ehird> (I don't want to think about it)
17:38:00 <ais523> but it's clear mathematica tried to solve it numerically
17:38:02 <ehird> I know what a surd is!
17:38:18 <ehird> An unresolved mathematical expression of an nth root, or an irrational number that can be expressed as such a root of a rational number
17:38:29 <ais523> let's see... x+y=478*x simplifies to y=477*x
17:38:51 <ehird> right, W|A solved that
17:38:55 <ehird> 17:37 ehird: <W|A> x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x
17:38:56 <ais523> so we're trying to solve (477*x)^x = 7777+477*x^3
17:39:15 <ais523> actually, the ^x there is nasty
17:39:20 <ais523> so it may quite possibly be irrational
17:40:51 <ehird> ais523: it's a pretty number, because seeing "771" and "711", your brain thinks it's repeating
17:40:53 <ehird> until you actually look
17:41:07 <ais523> mine didn't assume it was repeating
17:41:18 <AnMaster> ehird: <me> What is the VAT in UK? <W|A> Interpretation: is | Vatican City | in United Kingdom Result: no
17:41:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Hahahahaa
17:41:26 * oerjan didn't notice the 711 until you mentioned it
17:41:40 <ais523> that is really quite a misinterpretation
17:41:59 <AnMaster> anyone know how much the VAT is?
17:42:21 <fizzie> Also "VAT of UK" is interpreted as "Vatican City | United Kingdom" and then it starts to compare those two things.
17:42:26 <ehird> it was changed recently
17:42:40 <ehird> oerjan: he wants to know its value
17:42:51 <oerjan> and i suggested a better search term
17:42:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it used to be 17.5% and will be following 31 dec 09
17:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Same for all type of products?
17:43:33 <AnMaster> easier than Sweden. IIRC our "moms" (same concept as your VAT) varies between different types of products
17:44:04 <ais523> haha: <ais523> airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow
17:44:06 <pikhq> VAT? Vallue-added tax?
17:44:07 <ehird> makes me think plural-mom-mother
17:44:09 <ais523> gave african or european
17:44:12 <oerjan> norway is complicated too. unless they changed it.
17:44:12 <ehird> pikhq: valllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllue
17:44:16 <ehird> ais523: well they got taht one
17:44:24 <ais523> the african gives insufficient data
17:44:31 <AnMaster> wikipedia says it means mervärdesskatt btw
17:44:31 <ehird> 17:44 ais523: the african gives insufficient data
17:44:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... You guys have a nation-wide sales tax?
17:44:34 <ais523> for the european, Alpha says 25 mph
17:44:41 <ehird> pikhq: ... so does the UK.
17:44:44 <ais523> but Google says 24 mph
17:44:47 <ais523> I wonder which is right?
17:44:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, what would the alternative be...
17:45:03 <ehird> AnMaster: TAXLESS AMERICAN FREEDOM
17:45:08 <pikhq> Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful.
17:45:12 <AnMaster> "In Sweden, VAT is split into three levels: 25% for most goods and services including restaurants bills, 12% for foods (incl. bring home from restaurants) and hotel stays (but breakfast at 25%) and 6% for printed matter, cultural services, and transport of private persons. Some services are not taxable for example education of children and adults if public utility, and health and dental care, but educ
17:45:13 <AnMaster> ation is taxable at 25% in case of courses for adults at a private school. Dance events (for the guests) have 25%, concerts and stage shows have 6%, and some types of cultural events have 0%."
17:45:13 <ehird> ais523: Assuming estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen African swallow | Use estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow instead
17:45:15 <ehird> there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant)
17:45:16 <ais523> <Alpha> (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail)
17:45:16 <ehird> (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail.)
17:45:26 <ehird> 17:45 pikhq: Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful.
17:45:29 <ehird> pikhq: dude, you're an american
17:45:35 <ehird> STFU about government inferference
17:45:57 <ais523> in the US, the government interferes with different things to what it interferes with in Europe
17:45:57 <fizzie> I'm not getting Alpha to dig out tax rates. If I just write "tax", for me it says "Input interpretation: Helsinki, Uusimaa | total sales tax rate" and "(data not available)", but I can't specify the location anyhow.
17:46:01 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying that their countries have governments designed that way, while ours is only nominally *not* that way. ;)
17:46:14 <AnMaster> "What is the air speed of an unladen African swallow?"
17:46:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: The Finnish VAT (here "alv", for "arvonlisävero") is at least as complicated, I think.
17:46:16 <ais523> fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa?
17:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: welcome to 3 seconds ago
17:46:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it's clearly been special-cased
17:46:35 <ehird> 17:46 ais523: fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa?
17:46:39 <ehird> he's at the helsinki university isn't he?
17:46:39 <fizzie> ais523: Well, next to Helsinki. And Uusimaa is a larger regional grouping, in which I do live.
17:46:43 <ehird> renaming to WAVE UNIVERSITY or something
17:46:51 <fizzie> ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p
17:46:52 <ais523> ehird: I don't know which university fizzie is at off by heart
17:46:57 <ehird> 17:46 fizzie: ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p
17:47:06 <pikhq> Here, each state sets their own sales taxes, and those tend to be reduced for basic necessities, such as groceries...
17:47:10 <ehird> fizzie: how does tkk.fi work into this?
17:47:24 <pikhq> And the federal government adds an additional tax on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline.
17:47:31 <ehird> pikhq: I've always thought the federal/state system was silly
17:47:45 <oerjan> ehird: /// in C seems like the obvious thing now
17:47:48 <ais523> hmm, its results for "147.188.147.123" were decent
17:48:00 <fizzie> ehird: The Finnish name is "Teknillinen korkeakoulu", which is pretty much just "university of technology"; this is the main one, so it doesn't need to bother with the locational specifiers. The lesser ones elsewhere in Finland have the place in the Finnish names too.
17:48:03 <ehird> oerjan: yep... it'll require some allocation trickery, but it should work nice
17:48:05 <ais523> that's the IP of the proxy at the University I used for ages
17:48:05 <pikhq> ehird: I think it would be less silly if the federal government only had the powers granted to it by the constitution.
17:48:07 <ehird> oerjan: why obvious though?
17:48:11 * ais523 tries their current IP
17:48:15 <ehird> pikhq: it does, platonically
17:48:28 <ehird> but enforcement sort of damages that
17:48:31 <oerjan> because it's fast to manipulate mutable arrays directly in C
17:48:33 <AnMaster> <me> Monty Python <WA> Interpretation: Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl (movie)
17:48:34 <pikhq> Of course, then, the US would be more akin to the EU...
17:48:38 <ehird> oerjan: true enough
17:48:46 <fizzie> ehird: Anyway, TKK used to be in Helsinki, but the campus was moved to Espoo (Helsinki's neighbour city, and TKK is right there next to the border anyway) in 1955.
17:48:56 <ehird> fizzie: did they put it on wheels and move it across
17:49:24 <ehird> oerjan: it also lets you do sharing tricks
17:49:29 <ais523> ehird: there was a series on Channel 5 about building movers
17:49:32 <ais523> it was quite interesting
17:49:37 <ehird> oerjan: like make a new string_t, -= a bit from the length, then += data
17:49:41 <ais523> although a rather specific thing to have a TV series about
17:49:50 <ehird> ais523: Channel 5? Old, then.
17:49:59 <ais523> it seems lots of special equipment is needed to move buildings
17:50:08 <AnMaster> WA didn't know what "Ackermann function" was. But when typoed as "Ackerman function" it gave a strange result
17:50:08 <ais523> they might have renamed to five by then
17:50:08 <ehird> ais523: I mean, it's called five now
17:50:13 <ais523> but I still know them by their old name
17:50:20 <AnMaster> "Computability Additional functionality for this topic is under development...
17:50:28 <pikhq> I remember seeing that a few years ago on Discovery. Was a while back, though, when they'd show things that have something to do with reality other than blowing things up.
17:50:37 <ehird> AnMaster: try ackermann(a,b)
17:50:46 <ehird> pikhq: don't diss blowing things up
17:50:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I wanted general information about it, it's definition
17:50:55 <pikhq> ehird: It's all they air!
17:51:12 <ehird> pikhq: yes, and they have a place; they just need to rename to Explosions Channel
17:51:22 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Solve+the+halting+problem
17:51:25 <pikhq> ehird: I could get behind that.
17:51:27 <Slereah> This machine does not work
17:51:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that ackermann(1,2) -> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:51:49 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=itty+bitty+baby%2C+itty+bitty+boat
17:51:52 <fizzie> ehird: They built a new one. There's all kinds of related trivia, like they started building it in 1950 mainly because the place was used to host the participants of the 1952 Summer Olympics, presumably so they could get some sort of (financial or otherwise) help in the construction.
17:51:54 <ehird> AnMaster: A( works
17:51:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't seem to konw of the ackermann function
17:52:01 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=A%28G64%2CG64%29
17:52:01 <Slereah> Talk about a knowledge engine
17:52:05 <ais523> ehird: with the correct funtion?
17:52:05 <ehird> I'm not sure those are the right functions
17:52:16 <ehird> maybe it thinks G=gravity
17:52:31 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=butt
17:52:37 <Slereah> What the fuck is wrong with this
17:52:40 <ais523> ehird: it's interpreting G as an unknown
17:52:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: A( works <-- no
17:52:43 <ais523> and A as an unknown function
17:52:51 <ais523> and just returning a general answer, assuming G64 = G^64
17:53:11 <ehird> how do you get a (FILE *)'s fd?
17:53:15 <oerjan> ehird: i think it should be possible to just scan one array for matches, annotating it somehow, and then allocating the next array afterwards, at the correct length, then fill it and free the old one.
17:53:26 <AnMaster> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=google
17:53:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is "Daily returns versus S&P 500:"
17:53:38 <AnMaster> that graph, what is it supposed to me
17:53:56 <fizzie> ehird: fileno(stream).
17:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster: economics stuff.
17:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it's giving you stock symbol info
17:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that graph seemed so confusing
17:54:50 <fizzie> Not sure how conformant that is; obviously not ISO C, but it could be POSIX.
17:54:53 <ehird> it's a useless graph :-P
17:55:28 <ehird> an integer of some sor
17:55:31 <ehird> for file offsets it seems
17:55:48 <AnMaster> <me> Four seasons <WA> 3.154x10^7 seconds
17:55:52 <ais523> <ais523> Jimmy Wales <Alpha> date of birth | 8 August 1966 (age: 42 years)
17:55:57 <ais523> that'll be controversial
17:56:01 <AnMaster> I was looking for the famous work of Vivaldi
17:56:40 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Jimmy Donal "Jimbo" Wales (born August 7, 1966[2])
17:57:11 <ais523> and Wikpedia's source for that is Encyclopedia Britannica, and its sources
17:57:34 <ehird> ais523: what's controversial about it
17:57:42 <AnMaster> <me> Mathematica <WA> Assuming "mathematica" is a quantityUse as a historical event or an internet domain instead Interpretation: Wolfram Mathematica Result: Mathematica is an all-in-one computation and visualization system, development environment, and deployment engine. [...]
17:57:45 <ais523> there was a huge row about it
17:57:56 <ais523> Jimmy kept editing all references to it out of the Wikipedia article
17:57:59 <ais523> claiming no reliable soruces
17:58:10 <AnMaster> for historical event: "Mathematica 1.0 Released"
17:58:11 <ais523> and of course, people retaliated by finding lots of sources
17:58:19 <ehird> ais523: oh, more of the "jimbo is a pretty crap wikier who serves his own interests and has a shady past" stuff :p
17:58:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:58:28 <ais523> it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though
17:58:35 <ais523> Britannica agreed with Wikipedia on that, though
17:58:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I got a different error. "Sorry, Wolfram /Alpha/ is temporarily unavailable. Please try again. Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections".
17:58:46 <ais523> (I was wondering if it had been vandalised to show something different from the source...)
17:58:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though <-- what do you mean
17:59:13 <ehird> ais523: what's the bast way to read from a (FILE *) the natural block size, as much as possible?
17:59:32 <ehird> I'm just trying to stream a file into a buffer as properly as possible
17:59:40 <ehird> ais523: that isn't the natural block size!
17:59:46 <ehird> you're meant to use fread, I'm sure
17:59:56 <ehird> ais523: well, that's inefficient on memory
17:59:57 <ais523> getc turns into a call to get a natural-sized buffer
18:00:02 <ais523> followed by accessing into the buffer
18:00:07 <ais523> in most sane implementations
18:00:08 <ehird> instead of writing a word-sized block at a time
18:00:17 <ehird> I could do fread(buf, sizeof(long), ...)
18:00:30 <ais523> fread has function call overhead
18:00:31 <AnMaster> ais523, only true for buffered files.
18:00:36 <ais523> also, you probably want fgetc_unlocked
18:00:44 <ehird> ais523: I don't mind overhead
18:00:50 <ais523> but you can set the buffering explicitly if you think your compiler might be standards-incompliant
18:00:54 <ehird> This doesn't need to be especially fast - the files are tiny - I'd just like to get it correct
18:00:59 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact, only true for fully buffered files
18:01:08 <ais523> AnMaster: which it will be, unless it's stdio from tty
18:01:21 <ais523> and if it /is/ stdio from tty, fully-buffering is almost certainly incorrect
18:01:49 <AnMaster> ais523, fully buffered stdout to tty can make sense.
18:01:49 <ehird> fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file)
18:01:54 <fizzie> The pass-to-mathematica doesn't seem to be completely direct. If I write "f[x_] := x+1; f[42]" it interprets as "f(x_) = x+1; f(42)" and results "f(42) ~~ f(42.)..." with a unworky "more digits" option. I'm not quite sure how to define + evaluate a function there.
18:02:26 <ais523> AnMaster: std/out/, yes
18:02:51 <AnMaster> ais523, you said stdio, not stdin
18:02:56 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it was a thinko
18:03:04 <ais523> and I corrected it a couple of lines down
18:03:12 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rule+34
18:03:29 <AnMaster> (according to Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
18:03:50 <ehird> 18:01 ehird: fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file)
18:04:14 <Deewiant> ehird: ??The size of your buffer??
18:04:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm wondering how big I should make it :-P
18:04:56 <ehird> Yeah, that's not too helpful :-P
18:04:57 <Deewiant> But if you can't be bothered to find it out... 1024 is always good :-P
18:05:06 <ehird> Deewiant: That's 1024 bytes
18:05:09 <Deewiant> It's what I'd do if I actually cared
18:05:18 <ehird> So that's 1024 words
18:05:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, 1024 is good no matter the units
18:05:28 <fizzie> 4096 is also a good number; it's like four times better than 1024.
18:05:29 <AnMaster> <me> What is the airspeed of an unladen European swallow? <WA> Interpretation: estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow 950 km/day (kilometers per day)
18:05:39 <ehird> fizzie: 4096 bytes is bigger than most /// programs
18:05:44 <ehird> maybe 1024 / sizeof(long)
18:05:55 <Deewiant> What if it doesn't divide evenly
18:06:01 <ehird> Deewiant: who cares?
18:06:02 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you remove the qualifier "unladen"
18:06:23 <AnMaster> ais523, "too much load" atm...
18:06:35 <fizzie> ais523: It still interprets it as if there were "unladen" there.
18:06:38 <ais523> just keep trying, generating yet more load when it's already loaded is funny
18:06:58 <fizzie> It's also completely unable to find the same for other species of birds. :/
18:07:26 <ais523> special-cased, unfortunately
18:07:31 <ehird> The function ferror() tests the error indicator for the stream pointed to
18:07:32 <ehird> by stream, returning non-zero if it is set. The error indicator can only
18:07:33 <ehird> be reset by the clearerr() function.
18:07:35 <ehird> ↑ how am I meant to print out the error?
18:07:41 <ehird> printing the error from ferror?
18:07:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it adds the qualifier in the interpretation it seems.
18:08:01 <ais523> ehird: when something goes wrong reading a file, the reading function returns an error value and sets errno
18:08:10 <ais523> it also sets either the error or eof indicator
18:08:21 <ais523> so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error
18:08:25 <Deewiant> ais523: man fread says nothing about errno
18:08:28 <ais523> and use strerror or perror to get an error message
18:08:32 <ais523> Deewiant: it does set errno, though
18:08:36 <fizzie> Hm "wolf running speed" suggests "wolf speed", interpreted as "Wolf (movie) | Speed 2: Cruise Control (movie)" and then it does a movie comparison.
18:08:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Is that portable, then?
18:08:50 <fizzie> There's also a helpful "Assuming Wolf | Use Lobo, El instead" link.
18:09:06 <Deewiant> I'd expect at least man 3p fread to say something about it
18:09:20 <Deewiant> I was looking at ferror's manpage by accident
18:09:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error <-- err. Sure ferror() won't modify errno?
18:09:29 <ehird> it's specified not to
18:09:35 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it's one of the few that doesn't
18:09:35 <ehird> along with all functions on that page
18:09:36 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nigger
18:09:42 <ehird> These functions should not fail and do not set the external variable
18:09:45 <Slereah> I like how nigger is connected to raccoon
18:09:55 <ais523> although you might want to cache errno before anyway, just in case it stupidly calls malloc or something
18:09:58 <ehird> if I'm writing with nulls
18:10:07 <ehird> I have to round the allocation size to the nearest power of two
18:10:10 <ehird> what's the trick to do that again?
18:10:31 <ehird> not nearest power of two
18:10:32 <ais523> nearest, or larger, or smaller/
18:10:34 <ehird> nearest multiple of sizeof(long)
18:10:44 <ehird> nearest multiple of sizeof(long) rounding upwards
18:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the shortest way to round up to a multiple of some constant
18:11:03 <ais523> oh, (x+(sizeof(long))-1) & ~(sizeof(long)-1)
18:11:14 <ais523> wait, sizeof(long) might not be a power of 2
18:11:31 <ais523> ((x+(sizeof(long))-1)/(sizeof(long)))*(sizeof(long))
18:11:40 <ais523> AnMaster: nope, you can legally have a 24-bit long in C, for instance
18:11:56 <ais523> Deewiant: 7 is also too short
18:12:01 <ais523> although you can have a 9-bit char
18:12:08 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on which C version iirc
18:12:24 <ehird> Deewiant: minimum 8
18:12:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and you can't have 9 bit char in C99 logically. Since there is int8_t
18:12:40 <ais523> Deewiant: yep, unsigned char is specified minimum range 0-255
18:12:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Because they said so.
18:12:44 <ais523> so it has to be at least 8 bits
18:12:47 <AnMaster> ais523, how the hell would you represent int8_t with 9 bit chars
18:12:49 <ais523> AnMaster: you can, in that case int8_t is undefined
18:13:00 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it required? I don't remember
18:13:08 <ais523> it's required iff it exists
18:13:16 <ais523> which is why I hope you check if it exists by using ifdef, without using it
18:13:18 <AnMaster> ais523, POSIX 2008 specifies 8 bit char at least. No more no less.
18:13:22 <ais523> (POSIX does require char to be 8 bits, though)
18:13:32 <ehird> 18:13 ais523: it's required iff it exists
18:13:36 <ehird> that's brilliantly pointless
18:13:41 <AnMaster> ais523, since I depend on POSIX that is a non-issue :P
18:13:54 <ais523> ehird: I mean, if there is a signed type that happens to be exactly 8 bits long, then int8_t has to be defined
18:14:00 <ais523> if there isn't, then it needn't be
18:15:02 <fizzie> u?int_least{8,16,32,64}_t are always required in C99, though.
18:15:18 <ais523> just thinking DS9K for a moment: imagine a system with 8-bit char, 24-bit short, and a proprietary 16-bit type as an extension
18:15:29 <ais523> I wonder if it would be legal to define int16_t but not uint16_t in that case?
18:16:28 <fizzie> ais523: C99 phrasing is "These types [int/unitN_t] are optional. However, if an implementation provides integer types with widths of 8, 16, 32, or 64 bits, it shall define the corresponding typedef names." Make of that what you wish.
18:16:43 <fizzie> Although that does seem to imply that if intN_t exists, uintN_t should too.
18:17:33 <fizzie> For those widths, anyway. Maybe. Unless you are specifying the typedef even when the implementation does not provide an integer type with the corresponding width, but I don't know how that should work.
18:17:51 <GregorR-L> Psssssssssst ... somebody type !mush :P
18:17:59 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
18:18:07 -!- ehird has changed nick to someone.
18:18:12 <ais523> hmm... mush seems to have been programmed separately
18:18:16 -!- someone has changed nick to ehird.
18:18:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: I can't DCC.
18:18:48 <GregorR-L> Sort of, but you need to send \r\n mebbe
18:18:54 <ehird> Oh great. GregorR-L: No line editing.
18:18:55 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P
18:19:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: Add it and I'll try.
18:19:19 <ehird> or can telnet servers not do that?
18:19:19 <Deewiant> ehird: If you prefer netcat then don't complain about it's limitations
18:19:19 <fizzie> Can you run netcat with rlwrap?
18:19:24 <ehird> Deewiant: I used telnt
18:19:30 <ais523> but nobody else seems to be
18:19:42 <Deewiant> I tried to be there via DCC but it doesn't work
18:19:44 <ais523> and there only seem to be two rooms
18:19:58 <GregorR-L> People usually use MUSH clients, and an IRC client isn't actually a bad one.
18:20:31 <pikhq> (assuming a MUSH that handles TERM=VT100 well)
18:21:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, care to explain what the hell it is about
18:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a MUSH
18:21:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH
18:22:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, the who command doesn't work. It just prints the intro message
18:22:24 <ehird> 18:18 Deewiant: GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P
18:25:33 <ehird> Quinn is actually Gregor!
18:25:41 <ehird> Quinn is actually gregor!
18:29:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help.
18:30:26 <ehird> WAAH YOUR MUSH ISN'T HOW I WANT IT GO FIX IT LAMEO
18:30:34 <ehird> <W|A> Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead
18:30:35 * ais523 drops AnMaster in a Turign Tarpit
18:30:43 <pikhq> AND TAKING MY BALL WITH ME!
18:31:00 <ehird> ais523: if you click the other one, it gives you truth tables and forms etc, otherwise just the input
18:31:00 <AnMaster> since I'm much more interesting in coding on in-between than that mush
18:31:10 <ais523> ehird: I just dropped you in the turing tarpit too
18:31:19 <GregorR-L> Anyway, if anybody wants to actually poke around at the MUSH, I'll give you wizard privileges.
18:31:19 <ehird> what's the turing tarpet ay
18:31:26 <ais523> ehird: it's north of esoland
18:31:38 <ehird> as in, closed the window
18:31:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure I'm going to log in again. Unless GregorR addresses those mentioned issues.
18:31:56 <ais523> well, I've left for now too
18:32:00 <ais523> I may poke around later
18:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
18:32:17 <ais523> what pick up bug, anyway?
18:32:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help.
18:32:28 <ais523> grabbing other people doesn't strike me as a ridiculous thing to be able to do
18:32:29 <AnMaster> ais523, that you can pick up other people
18:32:38 <ais523> AnMaster: that's deliberate, almost certainly
18:32:39 <AnMaster> and put them in your inventory
18:33:17 <ehird> ais523: how do you make a stream unbuffered in c? setbuf/setvbuf etc need you to specify a buffer location etc.
18:33:24 <GregorR-L> That locks you so only you can pick ... you ... up. Except you can't actually pick yourself up :P
18:33:29 <ais523> ehird: it's with setvbuf
18:33:35 <ais523> there's a special combination of options
18:33:41 <ais523> probably involving null in the buffer location
18:33:43 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, there is no complete list of commands btw. I had to guess that it was "quit" to quit
18:33:45 <GregorR-L> In a MUSH, /everything/ is an object. Everything. That's just how MUSHes are. Rooms are objects, exits are objects, people are objects.
18:33:46 <ais523> together with another couple of things
18:33:54 <ehird> setbuf(stream, NULL)
18:33:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is yet another issue.
18:34:17 <ehird> also, prize to anyone who figures out a good use for p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))). http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+and+%28%28not+q%29+or+%28%28not+r%29+and+%28p+and+q%29%29%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator- for truth table
18:34:18 <GregorR-L> OMG, you have to learn how to MUSH before you MUSH, shocking :P
18:34:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: YO DAWG
18:34:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, help commands didn't give me a list of commands.
18:34:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, nor could I find one anywhere else
18:34:47 <ais523> AnMaster: there are a few hundred of them, I imagine
18:35:01 <ehird> I seee. I am far too esteemed for this.
18:35:07 <ehird> % ./slashes /dev/zero
18:35:07 <ehird> zsh: segmentation fault ./slashes /dev/zero
18:35:13 <ehird> I wonder if fstat reports the size of /dev/zero wrong?
18:35:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats, you're a flooder.
18:35:37 <GregorR-L> ehird: Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead
18:35:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just copying your behaviour
18:35:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yeah. :-P
18:36:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Soon you'll be copying behaviour I rarely do so much that you'll be a giant dickwad.
18:36:12 <ehird> % ls -lh /dev/zero
18:36:13 <ehird> crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 3, 3 6 May 18:17 /dev/zero
18:36:17 <ehird> I wonder what that comma is?
18:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to do it quite a lot.
18:36:27 <ais523> ehird: 3,3 is the name of the device
18:36:35 <ais523> as in, they're the numbers you tell the kernel
18:36:36 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care."
18:36:36 <ehird> AnMaster: And as we were taught in school: Two wrongs make a right.
18:36:40 <ais523> in order to access /dev/zero
18:36:43 <ehird> AnMaster: that was after you flooded me
18:36:57 <ehird> I only flood in response to being constantly bugged about something repeatedly.
18:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, Odd definition of flood.
18:37:05 <ehird> ais523: what do you think its size as reported as?
18:37:14 <ais523> it isn't, I don't think
18:37:17 <AnMaster> asking nicely until you get an answer != flood.
18:37:25 <AnMaster> flood is posting a lot quickly
18:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Nicely? haha
18:37:40 <ehird> you continually demand an answer from me as if you have some kind of obligation
18:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, the one above wasn't nicely no.
18:37:46 <fizzie> You can't use the st_size as more of a hint what you might be getting from the file, though.
18:37:57 <ehird> when has repeatedly asking me ever helped AnMaster?
18:38:05 <ehird> fizzie: Oh? Why not?
18:38:06 <fizzie> Anyway, I can hardly see how it could report a "correct size" for /dev/zero.
18:38:11 <ehird> fizzie: It's an fstat on an open file.
18:38:14 <ais523> well, it's infinitely large
18:38:18 <AnMaster> ehird, since you seem to be attacking me when I say that MUSH seems boring and I'm not going to look at it again unless these major issues are addressed.
18:38:28 <fizzie> ehird: Someone could still write more into it.
18:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's that we don't think they're major issues
18:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: I was mimicing your whining.
18:38:59 <ehird> You acted, AnMaster, as if you have a sense of entitlement to have these "bugs" fixed. You called them—objectively—bugs. You acted in a way that would suggest you'd "want your money back".
18:39:00 <ais523> in fact, you're complaining about intended behaviour
18:39:07 <ehird> This is called "unreasonable", and I mocked it.
18:39:08 <AnMaster> bbl, got more interesting stuff to do.
18:39:19 <ehird> fizzie: Well, true.
18:39:25 <ehird> fizzie: It's such a pain to reallocate, though.
18:39:26 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:39:27 <AnMaster> ais523, Like the horrible messy interface. That is hard to read.
18:39:37 <ehird> maybe you need glasses, AnMaster
18:39:41 <AnMaster> well 90% of all UIs are bad. True.
18:39:43 <ehird> it isn't perfect but it's easy to read.
18:39:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it's intended for streaming onto a client, I think
18:39:49 <ais523> it's exactly the same as IRC over telnet
18:39:52 <ais523> just with less metadata
18:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But why did he make it available over DCC then without adding that translation
18:40:36 <ehird> Because it's a quick hack?
18:40:51 <AnMaster> Since obviously Egobot acts as a gateway/proxy there
18:41:02 <AnMaster> translating to another protocol.
18:41:06 <ais523> beh, Wolfram Alpha fails on "turing machine 596440"
18:41:11 <ais523> which I'd expect it to be good at
18:41:38 <ehird> ais523: what about 2,3?
18:41:47 <ais523> ehird: I tried that search term too
18:41:53 <ais523> but there are lots of 2,3 turing machines around
18:41:54 <ehird> W|A can't handle (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s)
18:41:57 <ehird> but it can handle similar things
18:42:08 <pikhq> The DCC chat protocol is Telnet with metadata over IRC.
18:42:12 <ais523> it helps to specify which
18:42:15 <ehird> pikhq: are you sure?
18:42:31 <ehird> I thought you meant
18:42:34 <fizzie> W|A: "universal turing machine" => "Computability: Additional functionality for this topic is under development... Leave your email address to be notified whan it is ready."
18:42:34 <ehird> the dcc chats itself had metadata
18:42:37 <ehird> those are just raw telnet
18:42:37 <pikhq> ehird: The connection is negotiated via IRC.
18:42:47 <ehird> ais523: any idea why my query doesn't work?
18:43:38 <ais523> ehird: yes, Wolfram Alpha doesn't have a special case for that yet
18:43:54 <ehird> ais523: no, but, seriously; shorter forms using the same variables work
18:44:11 <ehird> for instance, "p and ~q and ~r and s" works
18:44:27 <ehird> ais523: (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) also works
18:44:31 <ehird> but the longer form — bzzt
18:45:06 <ehird> ais523: [ Infrastructure for this computation provided by Wolfram|Alpha launch partner Dell, Inc. ]
18:45:29 <fizzie> "(p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (q and p and r)" also works, but not if you add the missing "and s" to that last group.
18:45:44 <ehird> fizzie: that's truly bizarre
18:46:01 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:46:02 <ehird> i mean, i was starting to have fun!
18:46:25 <fizzie> Maybe their logic-circuit drawing tool would start to overheat at that point.
18:46:37 <fizzie> Or they couldn't figure out how to do the Venn diagram any more.
18:46:50 <ehird> ais523: I figured out what the math-or-math thing means
18:46:50 <GregorR-L> I'm trying to get it to give me the life expectancy in Europe in the middle ages, and it times out :P
18:46:59 <ehird> click use as referring to math and you get:
18:47:00 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*InfixFunctionOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times
18:47:05 <ehird> click again and you get
18:47:05 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times
18:47:10 <ehird> so it's infix function operator vs math operator.
18:47:17 <ehird> a mathematical distinction, probably
18:47:43 <ehird> I almost turned into wolfram there
18:48:06 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results »
18:48:06 <ehird> Related inputs to try:
18:48:07 <ehird> life expectancy in Europe the middle ages more...
18:48:13 <Slereah> Will you give me free Mathematicas then?
18:48:14 <ehird> where life expectancy in Europe is separate from the other
18:48:17 <oerjan> ehird: p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))) = p&&(!q||(!r&&q)) = p&&(!q||!r)
18:48:28 <ehird> oerjan: oh, how boring :-D
18:48:29 <ais523> <Wolfram> We’ve always thought that Mathematica was an increasingly development environment.
18:48:39 <ehird> ais523: they accidentally the adjective
18:48:49 <ais523> no, he accidentally the adverb
18:48:58 <ehird> ais523: "increasingly powerful development environment"
18:49:03 <Slereah> ehird : If you are now Wolfram
18:49:08 <ehird> thougth you said verb
18:49:13 <fizzie> ehird: Did you not notice the "p&&(!q||!r)" form in the "minimal forms" table?
18:49:31 <ehird> fizzie: Yyeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss...
18:49:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: middle+ages+life+expectancy+in+europe doesn't work either
18:50:31 <oerjan> ehird: i did not look at the page, actually *ducks*
18:50:57 <ehird> european life expectancy in middle ages
18:50:58 <ehird> doesn't work either
18:51:01 <ehird> even though each part does
18:51:11 <ehird> life expectancy in middle ages
18:52:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: I guess they don't have the data
18:52:08 <fizzie> The nonsensical "middle europe the middle of the" gets input interpretation "Europe | center coordinates | Europe | center coordinates" but no results.
18:52:48 <ehird> "middle europe the middle of the" is hilarious and I don't know why
18:53:16 * ehird asks european bulldogs' wingspan
18:53:42 <ehird> (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s) works now!
18:54:00 <ais523> ehird: I think it's Cuiled
18:54:09 <ehird> ais523: whadya mean
18:54:11 <ais523> which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results
18:54:21 <ehird> not worse results, I think
18:54:22 <ais523> which is what happened to Cuil, and everyone thought it was rubbish
18:54:29 <ehird> i'm having quite a fun time with this, actually
18:54:36 <ehird> it's good if you don't use it for what wolfram wants you to
18:55:18 <ehird> I fixed it to as-in-math
18:55:20 <ehird> and it chopped my input
18:55:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results <-- that makes a bad impression. Important rule: Always make it time out or display an error message in case of failure.
18:55:23 <ehird> oh, maybe i'd just entered it
18:55:36 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't make a bad impression in normal usage
18:55:37 <ais523> AnMaster: well, cuil /did/ make a bad impression
18:55:41 <ehird> some results are better than an error
18:55:44 <ais523> it isn't nearly as bad as everyone thought it was
18:59:52 <fizzie> Height of the tallest tree is 0.86 times the length of Noah's Ark; that's useful information if anything.
19:00:43 <fizzie> I did know that football fields and such are generally used as human-grokkable size units, but I didn't know Noah's Ark even had a well-defined length. (300 cubits.)
19:00:54 <ehird> Interpretation: Jesus | runtime
19:01:02 <ehird> Result: 117 minutes (1 hour 57 minutes)
19:01:05 <ehird> Assuming Jesus (1979) | Use Jesus (2000) instead
19:01:13 <ehird> The third and fourth comings, clearly.
19:01:26 <fizzie> The year 2000 Jesus runs for 240 minutes. It's a much improved version.
19:01:30 <ehird> "Genres drama | family"
19:01:52 <ehird> "box office total $43,124"
19:01:57 <ehird> Jesus in 1979 was wildly popular.
19:02:21 <fizzie> ehird: Well, "height of Jesus" => "Interpretation: Jesus, Itapua, Paraguay | elevation" => 221 metres.
19:02:27 <ehird> i was about to say
19:02:41 <fizzie> 221 metres, no wonder He made quite an impression.
19:02:57 <ehird> how tall's christ the redeemer?
19:03:07 <GregorR-L> BTW, making TinyMUSH spew colors and/or at least highlights = wowzersdifficult.
19:03:17 <ehird> it's the miniature version
19:04:06 <ehird> the issue seems to be is that it has no idea his height
19:04:13 <ehird> this is contravarsial
19:04:18 <ehird> it places his date of birth as 4 BC
19:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: as a christian, what is your stance on that? :-P
19:04:46 <ais523> I have no idea how accurate Alpha's data is
19:04:53 <ais523> if it got Jimbo's birthdate wrong, what else could be wrong?
19:04:58 <ehird> it also spells bethlehem as Bayt Lahm, which while correct is amusing
19:05:00 <ais523> (I reported the error to Alpha, btw, to see what happened)
19:05:04 <ehird> ais523: click source information
19:05:10 <ehird> primary source: Wolfram|Alpha
19:05:17 <ehird> ais523: i mean on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=jesus+christ
19:05:21 <pikhq> ehird: ... That's controversial?
19:05:23 <ais523> including Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica
19:05:33 <ehird> pikhq: it isn't? Wasn't he born - yknow - 1 AD?
19:05:45 <ais523> it's slightly worrying that they list the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 as a source for Jimbo's birth
19:05:50 <pikhq> ehird: I though that it was fairly well-known that 1 AD was the wrong date, and we only use it because of tradition.
19:06:07 <ehird> pikhq: I will never understand religion.
19:06:50 <pikhq> This isn't even a case of religion.
19:06:59 <pikhq> This is a case of dating methods.
19:07:24 <ehird> pikhq: ah, so the stance is "4 BC was called 1 AD when the bible was written"?
19:07:50 <ehird> er, i wrote that wrong
19:07:55 <ehird> whatever, infer the correct meaning :^)
19:08:25 <pikhq> No, the stance is rather "in the middle ages, we though Jesus was born 1 AD, so we stuck that as the calendar's epoch. As it turns out, we had the wrong date. Too late to change the epoch."
19:08:47 <pikhq> Our current dating system didn't exist during Christ's lifetime, you see. ;)
19:08:56 <ehird> i just don't understand how both "the people who wrote the bible were wrong about stuff" and "the bible is the true word of God" can co-exist
19:08:59 <GregorR-L> Distance to the moon / height of mt everest = 45296
19:09:25 <GregorR-L> Uhhhh, there's no mention of BC or AD in the Bible ...
19:09:33 <pikhq> ehird: There weren't many specific dates in the Bible itself.
19:09:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: thus my phrasology
19:09:42 <ehird> 19:07 ehird: er, i wrote that wrong
19:09:42 <ehird> 19:07 ehird: whatever, infer the correct meaning :^)
19:09:54 <GregorR-L> I have no idea what the correct meaning is :P
19:09:59 <pikhq> The dating itself is from 400 AD and later.
19:10:02 <ehird> yeah well that's your problem GregorR-L :)
19:10:02 <GregorR-L> There just was no exact date in the Bible, so they guessed.
19:10:24 <pikhq> And as it turns out, they were off by a few years.
19:10:57 <ehird> w|a doesn't know what christianity is
19:10:59 <pikhq> That's about as controversial in Christian circles as whether or not Christ was born. :p
19:11:03 <GregorR-L> Average distance to Jupiter in lightminutes = 41.26
19:11:04 <ehird> although it knows it's in the category religion
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19:13:15 <GregorR-L> I'm trying to make it give me a plot of the distance to Jupiter now, and it's failing :P
19:13:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: plot of what
19:13:42 <GregorR-L> ...... the distance to Jupiter. Over time.
19:14:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: Over time of what?
19:14:06 <ehird> I'm trying to get you to be specific to W|A here ;-)
19:14:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: What, exactly, do you want plotted?
19:14:39 <GregorR-L> The distance from Earth to Jupiter over ANY period of time.
19:14:46 <ehird> From earth. To jupiter. There you go.
19:15:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: try "plot distance to jupiter from earth over 2007 to 2008"
19:15:06 <ehird> http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e the same guy is still standing up
19:15:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: I tried something very similar before, and that now, and neither work.
19:16:03 <GregorR-L> GEEZE WOLFRAM ALPHA GIMME DA PLOTS
19:16:06 <ehird> Oh well, fudge with the input.
19:16:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: start simple and build up
19:16:34 <GregorR-L> I've tried tons of things, I'm out of ideas :P
19:16:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: "distance to jupiter" infers "from earth"
19:16:54 <GregorR-L> Yes, I've got all that, that's dull.
19:17:03 * ehird tries distance to jupiter
19:17:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: "distance | from to Jupiter, Florida, United States"
19:17:23 * ehird tries distance to jupiter, 2007 to 2008
19:17:23 <fizzie> It is hard to get it to understand "distance to Jupiter" without it interpreting the distance part as "current distance from Earth".
19:18:28 <fizzie> Hmm, "distance to jupiter 1999" works; "input interpretation: Jupiter | current distance from Earth | 1999" and "Result on Jan 1, 1999: 5.171 AU".
19:18:34 <fizzie> Hard to get plots out of it though.
19:18:51 * ehird asks distance+to+jupiter+2007+to+2008
19:19:01 <ehird> {2007 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States,2008 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States}
19:19:15 <ais523> Jupiter is in Florida?
19:19:23 <ehird> distance to jupiter 2007, 2008
19:19:23 <ehird> 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008
19:19:33 <GregorR-L> "Distance to jupiter since 1900" gives the distance to Jupiter in 1900 from the town Since, Colombia
19:20:15 <ehird> 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008
19:20:20 <ehird> distance to jupiter in 2007 and 2008
19:20:23 <ehird> interprets and as logical and
19:20:52 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+to+jupiter+in+2007%2C+distance+to+jupiter+in+2008
19:21:17 <Deewiant> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=why+did+the+chicken+cross+the+road%3F
19:21:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: wait, it plots functions
19:21:58 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm tring plot distance to Jupiter at time x
19:22:04 * ehird tries plot distance to jupiter x from x=1900 to 2008
19:22:12 <ehird> plot | Lysithea | current distance from Earth | x = 1900 to 2008
19:22:41 <ehird> plot (distance to jupiter in x) from x=1900 to 2008
19:23:55 <ehird> england to england works, england to england via australia doesn't :-(
19:24:28 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=england+to+jupiter+by+plane NOT FLORIDA AGAIN!
19:26:34 <Slereah> There is no constant distance between the two
19:26:46 <GregorR-L> That's why we're plotting it over time.
19:27:26 <Slereah> That's a pretty good time for Jupiter
19:28:12 <GregorR-L> I really think this is entirely incapable of giving me the plot I want.
19:29:57 <Slereah> Also how do you even calculate the geodesic from England to Jupiter?
19:32:51 <GregorR-L> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=JFK+to+Newark+by+plane
19:36:06 <ehird> W|A can't figure out someone's lifespan
19:41:37 <ehird> "age when john f kennedy died" works
19:41:41 <ehird> without anything before it
19:41:48 <ehird> ais523: W|A can infer more context than humans..
20:03:44 <GregorR-L> So BTW, all the commands at the login screen work, they're just case sensitive (like it says they are)
20:16:02 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28%28p+and+q%29+and+%28%28r+xor+%7Es%29+and+t%29%29+or+%28%7Ep+and+%7Et%29
20:16:09 <ehird> most fucked up expression ever?
20:16:13 <ehird> that venn diagram is fun
20:16:20 <ehird> it's a butterfly, one of its wings is highilghted
20:28:32 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> 145 seconds! INTOLERABLE <-- that seems way way too low
20:30:54 <ehird> I challenge you all:
20:31:12 <ehird> Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can.
20:31:15 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L: you're on.
20:31:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can. <-- cool idea
20:32:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: erm, JFK and Newark are in the same city iirc
20:32:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah. Even so it doesn't make much sense since an aircraft can't reach top speed right away.
20:33:12 <ehird> you could easily do it in 145 seconds
20:33:59 <AnMaster> That isn't allowed though. There is this check list thing before you take off. And then you need to wait for take off/landing permissions and so on.
20:34:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's by plane
20:34:13 <ehird> not by plane legally
20:34:19 <ehird> or by plane according to standard regulations
20:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, a rule for the competition: if there's a minimal form that gives a simpler logic circuit, you're out
20:34:45 <AnMaster> ehird, even so, for so short distances the take off time is a significant portion of it
20:35:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and you can't speed up to max speed that fast. Nor can you fly at the max speed at low level. Learn the difference between IAS, TAS and GS
20:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not entering that competition
20:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) though
20:39:08 <AnMaster> though, the nand form may be easier
20:39:33 <AnMaster> Sorry, Wolfram Alpha is temporarily unavailable. Please try again.
20:39:33 <AnMaster> Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections
20:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the (p&&q)||(p&&!r&&s&&!t) form of that has a simpler circuit
20:39:46 <ehird> the idea is to get an actual operation that's hard in a logic circuit
20:39:48 <ehird> try using loads of variables
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20:40:46 <AnMaster> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
20:40:50 <AnMaster> (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) or (a and not (not b or c))
20:40:55 <ehird> AnMaster: "and not"
20:40:58 <ehird> use ~ instead of not
20:41:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean "and not"?
20:41:10 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, I win
20:41:12 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=a+or+b+nor+c+xor+d+nand+e+xor+f+and+g+or+e
20:41:16 <ehird> arguably, that's cheating
20:41:21 <ehird> AnMaster: from your thing: "or (a and not (not b or c))"
20:41:26 <ehird> and not is probably tripping it up
20:41:38 <ehird> because its parser sucks
20:41:45 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes yours is cheating
20:41:55 <ehird> let's say: only p to s
20:42:21 <ehird> so boring that you attempted it
20:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, and while doing that i found out it was boring
20:43:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see what you mean with your comment above
20:43:27 <AnMaster> you can't know without testing it
20:44:05 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=And%5BOr%5BNand%5Bp%2CXor%5Bq%2Cr%5D%5D%2Cs%5D%2Cp%5D
20:45:24 <ais523> what a weird shape for a Venn diagram
20:45:39 <ehird> hey guys, AnMaster isn't playing
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no such diagram there?
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20:45:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so who did you win against
20:45:56 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:46:02 <ais523> AnMaster: there is, but not all the page will load if Alpha is busy
20:46:23 <AnMaster> there is no logic circuit either
20:46:45 <AnMaster> ais523, can you upload a screenshot
20:46:54 <ais523> that would not be worth it
20:47:00 <ais523> just try again when they are less busy
20:47:27 <ehird> strangely they did not magically get less busy
20:48:04 <ehird> fun fact: nand(p,xor(t,nor(p,t))) is nand(p,t)
20:50:58 <ehird> ais523: how do you think I should ask it about the forall/implies logic?
20:51:20 <AnMaster> three progress bars slowly crossing
20:51:35 <AnMaster> nothing at all apart from that now
20:51:58 <fizzie> FAQ: "Should I cite Wolfram|Alpha when I use results from it? Yes. For academic purposes, Wolfram|Alpha is a primary source."
20:52:03 <ehird> 20:51 kyevan: ehird: Eh, why?
20:52:04 <ehird> 20:51 kyevan: Also, ehird: SINE MISSES YOU
20:52:05 <ehird> 20:51 ehird: kyevan: Well, t'was done when Arc came out. I am become Haskell, destroyer of egos.
20:52:07 <ehird> 20:51 ehird: Also, aagh!
20:52:44 <ehird> AnMaster: which one
20:53:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That was in #haskell, and if you don't know what Sine is, you could try asking someone who does.
20:54:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what the sine function is
20:54:14 <AnMaster> but I don't see the joke anyway
20:54:17 <ehird> Nothing to do with that.
20:54:37 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i={x|x+not+in+x}
20:54:47 <Slereah> Why won't you understand me
20:55:44 <AnMaster> Slereah, isn't that Russell's paradox?
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20:58:17 <AnMaster> why does wolfram alpha has a control room that is mentioned whenever it times out
20:58:27 <ehird> AnMaster: why not?
20:58:33 <ehird> it's a bunch of people looking at figures and laptops
20:58:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like it is NASA.
20:58:53 <ehird> AnMaster: do not underestimate Wolfram's ego.
20:59:04 <AnMaster> ah yes, to him it *is* rocket science
20:59:07 <Slereah> Can they make an erotic dance?
21:01:45 <AnMaster> ok: http://www4a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP4883195gc302i3ag9ae1000057gfdb6c7cbg6h08?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=47
21:02:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you agree with what?
21:02:56 <AnMaster> No results found for "Boolean operator number".
21:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: wolfram's thing.
21:03:07 <ehird> mostly it = the 1d cellular automata number
21:03:10 <ehird> if it's simple enough
21:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, his fixation with numbers
21:03:29 <Slereah> Also no result for kolmogorov machine :(
21:03:39 <ais523> nor even turing machine
21:03:42 <fizzie> ehird: "If you are under age 18 you may use Wolfram|Alpha only if you have permission from a parent, legal guardian, or teacher." I assume you've taken care of this?
21:03:50 <ehird> fizzie: Wow, now that's retarded.
21:03:53 <ais523> err, how do they enforce that?
21:03:58 <fizzie> It's right there in the Terms of Use.
21:04:01 <ehird> Let's just say I teach myself things and thus am a teacher of me.
21:04:10 <ehird> I have indeed given myself permission to use Wolfram Alpha.
21:04:13 <ehird> AnMaster: "Wolfram|Alpha"
21:04:15 <fizzie> If you continue to use it, you're assuring them you're either 18 or have the required permissions.
21:04:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but where is the hidden link
21:04:46 <Slereah> ehird : Are you your own parent?
21:04:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's at least in the FAQ.
21:05:05 <ais523> "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service. "
21:05:12 <ais523> how can they manage that, if most people never read them?
21:05:16 <ais523> they don't even have a clickthrough
21:05:23 <ais523> and because people below 18 can't legally agree to contracts
21:05:44 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=porn
21:05:45 <fizzie> There's also a terms of use link at the bottom of the front page, though it's not very visible.
21:05:55 <Slereah> It does link to "child pornography" rather quickly
21:06:31 <fizzie> Haha, the continuation of that part is even better.
21:06:35 <fizzie> "By using the service you are telling us either that you are over age 18 and legally able to form contracts, or that an adult with authority to act on your behalf has agreed to these terms and to be responsible for ensuring your compliance with them in your use of the service and any results you obtain from it. If you don't want to be bound by these terms, do not use the service or its results. However, you may want to consider one of our paid subs
21:06:36 <fizzie> cription options, which offer modified terms of use that may be more desirable to you."
21:06:46 <fizzie> "If you're not old enough, you can just pay us."
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I only found out that google had terms of use after several years of using it
21:07:43 <ais523> "If you make results from Wolfram|Alpha available to anyone else, or incorporate those results into your own documents or presentations, you must include attribution indicating that the results and/or the presentation of the results came from Wolfram|Alpha."
21:07:51 <ais523> oh no, they have the odious Mathematica advertising clause in Alpha too
21:08:31 <fizzie> ehird: Besides, your little competition might have violated the terms too. "Any attempt to use a robot, script, or *organized group of humans* [emphasis mine] to repeatedly access Wolfram|Alpha -- is strictly forbidden."
21:08:42 <fizzie> Maybe we're too disorganized to count, though.
21:08:53 <ais523> "The specific images, such as plots, typeset formulas, and tables, as well as the general page layouts, are all copyrighted by Wolfram|Alpha at the time Wolfram|Alpha generates them." <--- is that even legal?
21:09:18 <fizzie> ais523: If Wolfram|Alpha is sentient, why not? :p
21:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the advert clause you mentioned
21:09:42 <ais523> second para of "Attribution and Licensing"
21:10:52 <AnMaster> A list of suggested citation styles and icons is available <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/comingsoon.html">here</a>.
21:10:54 <ais523> "If any provision of the Terms of Use is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be deemed superseded by a valid enforceable provision that most closely matches the intent of the original provision, and the remaining provisions shall continue in full force and effect."
21:11:15 <ais523> wtf, their lawyers have taken the standard severability clause much further
21:11:25 <ais523> if the contract is invalid, it rewrites itself so that it's valid
21:11:31 <ais523> that's a lot more ridiculous than just severability
21:12:37 <AnMaster> "Spidering, data-mining, scraping, or probing Wolfram|Alpha, or otherwise attempting to abuse the service, is not only a violation of these terms but may also constitute violation of federal and state laws concerning unauthorized access to computer systems."
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21:12:52 <ais523> they should sue Google
21:13:10 <AnMaster> ais523, who will just say "use robots.txt"
21:13:43 <fizzie> You are also not permitted to stick frames around Wolfram|Alpha (no matter how clearly you point out that it's not part of your site or any such thing) without their express permission.
21:13:56 <ais523> they're trying to ban all sorts of things
21:13:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't see why I should it
21:14:05 <ais523> that clearly wouldn't work as an EULA, but they're trying to make it work as a contract
21:14:07 <AnMaster> I don't want their messy web page
21:14:09 <ais523> without any explicit way to agree to it
21:14:24 <ais523> "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect
21:14:34 <ais523> because clearly, lots of people have used it without reading them
21:14:47 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to use it again.
21:15:01 <ehird> apart from it sucking
21:15:19 <ehird> 21:14 ais523: "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect
21:15:21 <ehird> therefore, they don't apply
21:15:24 <AnMaster> last I looked google's TOS was at least unusually sane.
21:15:39 <AnMaster> though that was a few years ago
21:15:44 <ais523> ehird: I suspect their lawyers have gone mad
21:15:57 <fizzie> Well, Google has a cached copy of http://www.wolframalpha.com/ so I'm sure they've violated at least some of them. It's been automagically crawled, for one thing, and the cached copy is "surrounding" it with some own material.
21:16:35 <AnMaster> someone should report this to wolfram alpha just to see how they react when they realise what happened.
21:17:05 <AnMaster> because then wolfram alpha might get mad when it isn't listed in google any more
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22:09:34 <AnMaster> 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic
22:10:06 <ais523> <AnMaster> 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic
22:10:15 <AnMaster> the remaining 1% hm... Well gralic icecream... It is a chance in a million, but it might just work!
22:10:19 <ais523> somehow, I'm surprised you have that opinion
22:10:23 <ais523> you in particular, that is
22:10:37 <ehird> and 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more bacon
22:10:43 <ehird> additionally, 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more chocolat
22:10:50 <GregorR-L> The only thing that can't be improved by adding garlic is those things that have already had too much garlic added :P
22:10:56 <ehird> and in case you think that's contradictory:
22:11:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, chocolate is chocolate; even the foulest of chocolates is an improvement— white "chocolate", of course, not counting as chocolate— and beyond that it is up to your own tastes.
22:11:37 <GregorR-L> That's some awfully dark dark chocolate :P
22:11:41 <AnMaster> or the more common milk chocolate
22:11:53 <GregorR-L> Bittersweet chocolate means no milk, little sugar.
22:12:10 <ehird> People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times.
22:12:12 <AnMaster> white "chocolate" > brown chocolate
22:12:21 <GregorR-L> And white chocolate is megagarbage.
22:12:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times. <-- I hate fat bacon
22:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, it's just yuck without the fat.
22:12:36 <GregorR-L> And bittersweet chocolate is even better.
22:12:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: I have some 80% chocolate
22:12:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, too dark chocolate tastes foul IMO
22:12:58 <ehird> It just doesn't taste like chocolate
22:13:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, a healthy dose of sugar is needed!
22:13:03 <psygnisfive> wolfram alpha must either have some very interesting AI
22:13:05 <ehird> You can buy 100% chocolate; I would like some.
22:13:14 <GregorR-L> ehird: 100% is baker's chocolate, it's terrible.
22:13:21 <AnMaster> ehird, don't eat it. I tried it.
22:13:23 <psygnisfive> or some very VERY laboriously laid out data and query interpretation
22:13:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Not that 100%
22:13:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: 80% is the peak for me. Beyond that it gets worse in either direction.
22:13:39 <ehird> You can buy 100% from Lindt for human consumption.
22:13:46 <ehird> Whatever, that sort of number.
22:14:03 <ehird> I hear that it's totally different to chocolate.
22:14:11 <ehird> As in, it's more a sort of spicy flavour than a chocolatey one
22:14:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> It's not awful <ehird> It just doesn't taste like chocolate
22:15:24 <AnMaster> the light brown kind of nougat
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22:17:25 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nougat_sweets.jpg <-- that looks tastey
22:18:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and why are you surprised that I like garlic.
22:19:03 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving").
22:19:21 <ais523> AnMaster: a huge preference for one particular food sounds more like oklopol or ehird than you
22:19:24 -!- ineiros_ has changed nick to ineiros.
22:19:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you know "autocondimentor"? From TP.
22:20:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not *quite* that, but I tend to add garlic flavoured herb salt (I don't know if it is called that in English) to most meals.
22:20:39 <GregorR-L> We just say "garlic salt", but it's probably the same.
22:20:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, it has more than just garlic in it
22:21:06 <GregorR-L> There are lots of garlic salts with more than just garlic :P
22:21:11 <AnMaster> that is, unless I have fresh herbs at home here.
22:21:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about garlic salts without garlic
22:21:43 <AnMaster> so lets call it seasoning salt with herbs?
22:21:54 <AnMaster> btw: also black pepper if it is pasta of course
22:22:03 <AnMaster> oh and soya if it is rice or rice-like
22:22:12 <GregorR-L> I put seasoning salt on popcorn. It's yummy.
22:22:40 * GregorR-L grounds garlic into psygnisfive's very SOUL
22:22:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I had some raw garlic just half an hour ago. Was very nice
22:24:15 <psygnisfive> anmaster: 1 head of garlic, minus the easily removed outer skin. cut the tips of the cloves off and coat lightly with olive oil. sprinkle on to it oregano, wrap in tin foil, and bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 400 degrees.
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22:25:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, plus, I don't have any more fresh garlic at home.
22:25:39 <psygnisfive> you turn the garlic upside down and squeeze and the cloves slide right out of the skin
22:26:14 <psygnisfive> if you cooked it long enough for the cloves to be REALLY soft, theyre sort of squish out, but either way, the oil is mostly on the skin anyway.
22:26:27 <psygnisfive> its there to like... conduct heat, or something, really.
22:26:41 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> the garlic comes out soft and sweet <-- garlic shouldn't be sweet. If I wanted sweet I would go for sugar
22:26:43 <psygnisfive> and you dont cover the whole thing in oil, its just mostly the top bits
22:27:25 <psygnisfive> its pretty simple.im sure you can get close by just baking a whole head of garlic
22:27:50 <psygnisfive> you jsut have to cut off the tops of the cloves before you do, otherwise itll be impossible to get the garlic out
22:28:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I only have dried garlic at home currently
22:28:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Um. It should be up next week (green house)
22:29:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you "grow" food when possible. Not "buy" it.
22:29:37 <AnMaster> better for the environment. Less transports.
22:29:46 <psygnisfive> well, sure, but you cant "grow" yourself some garlic to cook today, can you?
22:30:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no. Because it is half an hour to midnight. All shops are closed too.
22:30:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and what is lame.
22:30:40 <psygnisfive> your grocery stores not being open 24 hours
22:30:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and you said bake for 45 minutes. By that time it won't be today any more
22:31:24 <psygnisfive> do not make me bust out the lexical semantics on you.
22:32:00 <AnMaster> plus I could just /ignore you if it was too annoying linqustics stuff
22:32:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and why should shops be open 24h
22:32:22 <psygnisfive> anmaster: because then you could go get garlic!
22:32:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it.
22:33:07 <AnMaster> Slereah, that meme is way way way outdated.
22:33:36 <psygnisfive> or to the 50% of the population that is biologically predisposed to being awake at night
22:33:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, And I have garlic flavoured bread at home.
22:35:07 <psygnisfive> or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here
22:36:08 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to CARHoare.
22:36:17 <CARHoare> who cares about garlic, look at this medal i have! http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/thoare/tony2.jpg
22:36:21 -!- CARHoare has changed nick to psygnisfive.
22:37:42 <AnMaster> that name doesn't mean anything to me though
22:38:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and what has that got do with you
22:38:33 <FireFly> In such cases, one uses wiki, not google
22:38:37 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here
22:38:48 <psygnisfive> then i made a pun based on the name "hoare", which is said the same as "whore"
22:39:18 <FireFly> "C.A.R. Hoare, is a British computer scientist, probably best known for the development in 1960 of Quicksort (or Hoaresort)"
22:40:06 <fizzie> I assume we're not calling it "Hoaresort" nowadays due to the pronunciation-based misambiguatities.
22:45:56 <ehird> 22:29 AnMaster: better for the environment. Less transports. ← yeah walking is like the devil
22:45:58 <ehird> 22:32 AnMaster: psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it.
22:46:01 <ehird> you're full of shit
22:46:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: try dealing with him on a daily basis before saying that :)
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22:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, um... How do you think it got to the store
22:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what? it's in the store whether you buy it or not
22:51:29 <ehird> unless you think that you, as a tiny meaningless statistical factor, could cause pressure to ship more garlic in any meaningful way
22:51:39 <ehird> which is ridiculously egotistical
22:51:59 <AnMaster> ehird, don't vote. you are a tiny meaningless statistical factor. What you vote for won't change anything,
22:52:41 <ehird> AnMaster: You've brought up that bullshit before.
22:52:44 <ehird> I've rebutted it before.
22:52:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it is the same concept.
22:53:14 <ehird> I'm sure it is in AnMaster-land
22:53:28 <AnMaster> and yes I think not voting is bull shit too. But I'm just extrapolating from your own opinions.
22:54:33 <ehird> …where by "extrapolating" you mean "making shit up".
22:54:47 <ais523> I've done things to affect statistics before
22:54:49 <ehird> And asserting things
22:55:13 <AnMaster> ais523, And I try to tell other people about it, so they do the same thing.
22:55:24 <AnMaster> Plus of course home grown tends to taste better.
22:55:34 <ais523> you grow your own garlic?
22:56:02 <AnMaster> ais523, not as much me as having a mom how is a gardening geek.
22:56:02 <ehird> ais523: as far as I can tell, he views going to a store as a blot on his very soul
22:56:27 <AnMaster> but yes I tend to prefer home grown and home made food
22:56:28 <ais523> in that case, why does he think he has a statistical effect on the store
22:56:31 <ais523> because he doesn't go there?
22:57:37 <AnMaster> less artificial flavour from flavour enhancers and so on...
22:57:54 <ehird> ais523: by consciously thinking about not going to the store, he telepathically is "not there", as a positive instead of just not "there"
22:58:08 <ehird> thus influencing statisticsa
22:58:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what the hell do you mean.
22:58:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's what I'd like to know myself!
22:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: By the way, it's "bullshit"
22:58:47 <ais523> ehird: well, I've refused to buy things because they're too expensive before
22:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like you are trying a straw man argument...
22:58:58 <ehird> ais523: I don't see how that's relevant
22:59:02 <ais523> normally I spend the money at a competitor of the people who were charging too much
22:59:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's what you call "extrapolating from your behaviour"
22:59:13 <ais523> so that probably does put some sort of small pressure on
22:59:26 <ehird> which is, yes, a strawman argument
22:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, then in your case you couldn't explain the difference though.
22:59:52 <ehird> you haven't explained the difference yourself
23:00:09 <ais523> hmm... it seems Norway are getting a runaway win on Eurovision
23:00:13 <ais523> with the largest score ever
23:00:15 <ehird> "extrapolating from your behaviour" voodoo jumps to conclusions VS strawman
23:00:23 <ehird> ais523: what did you do wrong?
23:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, why are you watching eurovision?
23:00:34 <ehird> (I'm trying to figure out what you're being punished for)
23:00:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I said that far more classily :|
23:01:01 <ais523> oh, I find modern music so bad anyway that Eurovision isn't any worse by comparison
23:01:08 <AnMaster> ehird, seems we agree on something for once. That ais523 disagree with us on
23:01:17 <ehird> ais523: oh, I don't know
23:01:22 <ais523> only it was incredibly bad this year
23:01:24 <ais523> as in, even worse than normal
23:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the Swedish one
23:01:38 <ais523> as an example of just how bad the competition is, the UK are curretnly fourth
23:01:40 <ehird> ais523: if pop is like a plastic facade of music, eurovision is like the silicone version
23:01:42 <ais523> and Sweden's fourth-last
23:02:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I actually thought the Swedish one was good when I heard it on radio recently
23:02:19 <ehird> ais523: No more 'Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input'. Wolfram|Beta knows the answer to ALL your questions!
23:02:24 <ehird> ais523: http://www.wolframsbeta.com/
23:02:31 <AnMaster> the performer is in fact a opera singer for her day-to-day job
23:02:36 <ais523> before I click on that, what is it?
23:02:45 <ehird> ais523: it's like Wolfram|Alpha, except it knows the answer to everything
23:02:51 <ehird> (no shock sites or anything.)
23:02:53 <ais523> does it always answer 42?
23:03:10 <ehird> ais523: well, it also asks its mom for washing, and reads 4chan, while calculating 42
23:03:24 <ehird> it's sort of like the nutri-matic machine, except the thing it always gives is better than the truth
23:03:44 <ehird> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kz97/no_more_wolframalpha_isnt_sure_what_to_do_with/c09mbiq
23:03:50 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I was just giving a sample
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23:04:03 <AnMaster> <script type="text/javascript">
23:04:03 <AnMaster> var gaJsHost = (("https:" == document.location.protocol) ? "https://ssl." : "http://www.");
23:04:03 <AnMaster> document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + gaJsHost + "google-analytics.com/ga.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E"));
23:04:11 <ehird> AnMaster: google analytics, what's your point
23:04:12 <AnMaster> why do you see that in almost every page
23:04:19 <ais523> ehird: you should post Alpha's terms-of-use contract to reddit
23:04:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it collates browser statistics etc
23:04:26 <ais523> with a suitably scary headline
23:04:31 <ehird> AnMaster: for graphing and stuff by the webmaster
23:04:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, and why do you want to give that to google
23:04:40 <ehird> AnMaster: google doesn't read it
23:04:42 <ehird> the site owner does
23:04:43 <AnMaster> rather than just use webalizer or analog or whatever
23:04:53 <ehird> because that requires a web server setup, has a klunky UI, ..
23:05:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it's no more dangerous information than a logfile
23:05:15 <ehird> browsers don't go around giving just anyone important info...
23:05:28 <AnMaster> ehird, All web pages "requires a web server setup".
23:05:36 <ehird> AnMaster: you're a retard.
23:05:41 <ehird> try and set up webalizer sometime
23:05:44 <ehird> then set up google analytics
23:06:03 <ehird> protip: google analytics consists of pressing a button and adding it to the bottom of your footer template
23:06:12 <ehird> as a bonus, it has a better UI
23:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, but it will only work if the client has javascript turned on
23:06:40 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what almost every web browser in the modern world has turned on?
23:07:02 <ehird> yes, I know you use Noscript. Yes, you too, oh, and you!
23:07:06 <ehird> So that's about 0%
23:07:16 <ais523> actually, javascript-off use is increasing a lot
23:07:18 <AnMaster> sure. But you underestimate how popular extensions like noscript is
23:07:27 <ais523> and remember, crawlers scrape without javascript
23:07:33 <ais523> I'd say that's a bigger factor than javascript
23:07:39 <ehird> ais523: To about 0.5%, perhaps. And that's okay, because analytics don't matter for crawlers.
23:07:46 <ehird> It's to measure what humans are visiting your site.
23:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm interested to see if I have been crawled too
23:08:08 <ais523> well, I deliberately block analytics scripts
23:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you still have logfiles
23:08:15 <ais523> even more so than the general blocking of JS
23:08:25 <fizzie> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp says 5 % off.
23:08:28 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately you cannot block apache/access.log
23:08:30 <ais523> as in, I never let them in even when I unblock a site, and I have NoScript set to put them in a separate menu
23:08:31 <ehird> fizzie: that's w3schools
23:08:34 <ehird> fizzie: guess who their audience is?
23:08:35 <ais523> I don't mind access.log
23:08:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it's meaningless
23:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and. What audience do you think I have.
23:08:51 <ehird> w3schools has reported firefox as wildly popular since forever
23:08:52 <ais523> it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs?
23:08:57 <ehird> AnMaster: so don't bloody use it
23:09:08 <ehird> AnMaster: reddit requires javascript, it has a bunch of technical people
23:09:16 <ehird> how many people do you think it's lost due to requiring JS everywhere?
23:09:21 <ehird> i'd say a few thousand
23:09:21 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs? <-- that is what I'm arguing for too!
23:09:30 <ehird> ais523: because these give more detail?
23:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I turn it on for those sites I'm interested in.
23:09:41 <ais523> well, I don't like them trying to track me across sites easily
23:09:54 <ehird> ais523: that's okay because they can't.
23:10:04 <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:10:08 <ehird> I must be fucking bonkers
23:10:14 <ais523> I change my mind about some things
23:10:23 <ais523> also, I agree with ehird sometimes, and AnMaster sometimes
23:10:35 <ehird> it's rare enough that angels go by my window singing a heavenly song everytime it happens
23:10:54 <fizzie> Okay, thecounter.com statistics (which shouldn't be *that* technically-oriented) for April 2009 is 6% no-Javascript: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2009/April/javas.php
23:10:57 <AnMaster> wolframbeta: What is the question to life, universe and everything? <WB> 42
23:11:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it cannot possibly be wrong
23:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, the universe would have ended if it was right!
23:11:48 <ehird> i mean wolframbeta
23:12:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:12:19 <ehird> 23:12 AnMaster: <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:12:25 <AnMaster> I wonder why I argue with the one person who never change his mind
23:12:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you never change your grammar either
23:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, and what does that have to do with this
23:13:50 <AnMaster> interesting name for a movement: "Andante di molto - Allegro"
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01:06:30 <ehird> [[The one number it gave that seemed like it might be the number of infant deaths per year was actually the total number of deaths per year, multiplied by one child, i.e. pure nonsense.]]
01:10:13 <ehird> <W|A> $993,258.23 per person
01:10:25 <ehird> using estimates from 1993-2008 too
01:11:48 <ehird> ais523-in-future: i think they're improving it. It handles "gdp/average human height in centimeters"
01:20:55 <ehird> x!=0, log(x)!=0, x^(3/x^3+1/x^2+1)!=0, y = (x^3 (-W_n(-(e^((log(x))/x^2-(3 log(x))/x^3) log(x))/x^3))+x log(x)-3 log(x))/(x^3 log(x)), n element Z
01:21:06 <ehird> x=1, y-1; x=2, y=0
01:21:08 <ehird> x^y - x^3y + x - 3 = 0
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02:02:36 * Sgeo goes to set up a Paypal account while on Windows
02:03:57 <Sgeo> Unless a hacker's thinking of using a 2-minute Window between me transfering funds to the account and when I purchase stuff with it, I think I'm safe
02:06:35 <pikhq> They've already hacked in.
02:07:22 <Sgeo> I'm not going to hook it up to any "real" stuff
02:07:54 <Sgeo> "Once you link your bank account or credit card, you'll speed through online checkout without exposing your financial information." No thanks
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02:11:06 <pikhq> I wouldn't trust Paypal to be hooked to a credit card or bank account if I had Knuth do a formal analysis of the OpenBSD operating system and *then* installed OpenBSD.
02:11:41 <pikhq> Now, if I could replace Paypal itself with OpenBSD, then maybe we'd be talking.
02:12:56 <Sgeo> I'm just going to use some SL money
02:13:05 <Sgeo> I should probably start working on my SL product
02:13:21 <Sgeo> And figure out how to receive Paypal payments
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06:56:11 <evincar> Pretty dead tonight, then, eh?
07:02:41 <Sgeo> I think I may accidentally have done something that my dad will kill me for
07:03:19 <Sgeo> Turned L$ into USD and deposited into a paypal account
07:03:28 <Sgeo> I have no clue about the tax implications
07:04:48 <Sgeo> L$ is the currency used in Second Life
07:05:24 <psygnisfive> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=612999
07:05:24 <psygnisfive> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8l10s/a_brief_history_of_grammar/
07:05:25 <psygnisfive> http://digg.com/general_sciences/A_Brief_History_of_Grammar/
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08:50:50 <oerjan> <ehird> People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times.
08:52:17 <oerjan> lean, mean, evil agents who can easily outrun you
09:14:26 <GregorR-L> Wow. I hear this car zoom up behind me, so I start bleeding off speed (which is my automatic being-tailgated reaction), and look in the rear-view mirror to see ... a cop ... tailgating me ... without his lights on. He veers off of me and into the next lane, then zooms up and starts tailgating the next guy, whose automatic reaction was to speed up, presumably to faster than the speed limit, at which point the cop pulled him over.
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09:26:30 <oerjan> _is_ it really the case that a single /// substitution can only loop if the destination contains the source?
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09:47:41 * oerjan paranoidly checks for unicode
09:51:55 <Gracenotes> APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL CIRCLE DIAERESIS
09:56:34 <oerjan> /abcabc/bcabcabca/abcabc fails as the destination contains the source
09:57:02 <oerjan> even though two destinations can combine to create an extra copy
09:59:48 <oerjan> /abb/bbaab/abbbb -> bbaabbb -> bbbbaabb
10:02:26 <oerjan> /abb/bbaab/abbbb -> bbaabbb -> bbabbaabb -> bbbbaabaabb -> bbbbaababbaab
10:06:30 * oerjan just added a fourth debugging level to the interpreter just to check that :D
10:13:42 <oerjan> oh, also /ab/bbaa/abab, that's probably the simplest
10:25:50 <oerjan> make that /ab/bbaa/abb
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14:25:52 <AnMaster> Interesting. GCC generates better code at -O2 for do{...}while(foo); loops than while(foo){...}
14:26:12 <AnMaster> that is when foo is assigned just a few lines before
14:26:21 <AnMaster> so it could easily figure out that the loop will always be run
14:32:21 <pikhq> GCC's optimisation is not exactly best-in-class.
14:32:30 <pikhq> It's just rather good.
14:32:45 <pikhq> Just like almost everything else about GCC.
14:33:03 <pikhq> So, it managed to be one of the best compilers by not being bad at much anything. ;)
14:34:41 <olsner> being the only generally available compiler certainly helps too
14:35:06 <pikhq> Well, yes. It *is* just about guaranteed to be available for your platform.
14:35:58 <pikhq> Unlike, say, icc, which is for i686-pc-linux-gnu, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, i686-pc-windows-microsoft, and x86_64-pc-windows-microsoft...
14:36:20 <pikhq> Or MS VC++, which is available for half of those.
14:37:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, you forgot that icc handles Linux on Itanium too
14:37:20 <pikhq> Yes. That's the only compiler I see replacing GCC,
14:37:34 <pikhq> For about the same reasons that GCC got to be ubiquitous.
14:37:56 <pikhq> Except that it's a bit better.
14:38:41 <fizzie> There's ICC for OS X and QNX, though.
14:39:47 <fizzie> Well, it's listed on http://software.intel.com/en-us/intel-compilers/ at least; I don't know about up-to-date versions. And no Fortran compiler on QNX.
14:46:25 <pikhq> Still, ICC sucks for non-Intel processors.
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15:53:05 <AnMaster> anyone know a good non-compiled language to use for output to test lostking? From GCC I always get "out of memory". Even when letting it use 1 GB.
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16:23:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: dude, why di you submit that to proggit
16:23:57 <ehird> it has nothing to do with programming
16:24:11 <ehird> also, downvoted for news site whoring.
16:24:19 <psygnisfive> it was the closest thing i could think to add it to, given whats on the sites :P
16:24:34 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics
16:24:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: the list lists the most popular reddits.
16:24:59 <ehird> there are thousands.
16:25:36 <ehird> i'm going to log into digg and slashdot and hn for the first time in ages and downvote them too because i hate "UPVOTE DIS" buttons :)
16:25:50 <psygnisfive> well ill remove those buttons just for you then :P
16:25:50 <ehird> ooh, I don't have to for HN, the submission's deleted
16:26:15 <ehird> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=612999
16:26:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: "[dead]"
16:26:19 <ehird> I beg to differ, sir.
16:26:36 <psygnisfive> A Brief History of Grammar (wellnowwhat.net)
16:26:36 <psygnisfive> 3 points by psygnisfive 10 hours ago | 1 comment
16:26:39 <psygnisfive> 1 point by cendrillonea 8 hours ago | link
16:26:41 <psygnisfive> I really enjoyed this, and thought it was a well-detailed account that more than adequately explained the evolution of the grammar we use today.
16:26:47 <ehird> Hacker Newsnew | comments | leaders | jobs | submitlogin
16:26:53 <ehird> 1 point by cendrillonea 8 hours ago | link
16:26:55 <ehird> I really enjoyed this, and thought it was a well-detailed account that more than adequately explained the evolution of the grammar we use today.
16:27:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: you can see it because you are the submitter, I infer.
16:27:06 <ehird> for everyone else...
16:27:12 <ehird> yer submission's dead
16:31:28 <ehird> i don't care about grammar, tbh
16:32:16 <psygnisfive> its not so much about grammar as in "what do languages do blah blah blah"
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16:33:48 <psygnisfive> you have a finite language, that produces some small set of "kernel sentences", and then you have a number of unrestricted production rules that modify a sentence in particular ways, including adding in recursive elements
16:34:29 <psygnisfive> the TG approach wanted to see what was a sufficient enough set of kernel sentences and transformational rules in order to account for all over natural language
16:36:37 <ehird> psygnisfive: because fhd
16:36:41 <Slereah> Isn't beta more of a /v/ sound?
16:36:48 <ehird> Durünglork toshmosh, psygnisfive!
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16:41:54 <psygnisfive> anyway, ehird, you should check it out. just because. :P
16:42:08 <ehird> rewrite it in tardglish and i will
16:45:25 <ehird> Download now a shareware DOS executable version of UUdecode. Or, download a zipped version of the same.
16:45:26 <ehird> You can find fancier implementations of uuencode and uudecode in various places, but they do basically the same processing that my versions do. But if you are a software developer, beware that none of those other implementations make available the source code so that you can incorporate uuencode and uudecode functions into your own projects.
16:45:33 <ehird> http://my.execpc.com/~adw/uu.html
16:45:40 <ehird> It's written in BASIC!
16:49:27 <psygnisfive> http://www.flickr.com/photos/xorsyst/3494215156/
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16:56:57 <ehird> ISO 3103 is a standard published by the International Organization for Standardization (commonly referred to as ISO), specifying a standardized method for brewing tea. It was originally laid down in 1980 as BS 6008:1980. It was produced by ISO Technical Committee 34 (Food products), Sub-Committee 8 (Tea).
16:56:59 <ehird> The abstract states the following:
16:57:01 <ehird> The method consists in extracting of soluble substances in dried tea leaf, containing in a porcelain or earthenware pot, by means of freshly boiling water, pouring of the liquor into a white porcelain or earthenware bowl, examination of the organoleptic properties of the infused leaf, and of the liquid with or without milk, or both.
17:01:13 <ehird> "Just as liberal feminists are frequently content with a minimal agenda of legal and social equality for women and 'pro-choice', so liberal (and even some socialist) mathematicians are often content to work within the hegemonic Zermelo-Fraenkel framework (which, reflecting its nineteenth-century liberal origins, already incorporates the axiom of equality) supplemented only by the axiom of choice."
17:06:01 <psygnisfive> ehird: was this tea standard introduced by a brit?
17:06:27 <ehird> I have a feeling I'd like tea if I could be arsed to make it Properly(TM).
17:06:51 <psygnisfive> well are you following the ISO 3103 standardized method for bewing tea?
17:08:55 <fizzie> It also suggests the obvious (non-regexp) solution: building a ISO 3103 compliant tea-making robot.
17:09:17 <ehird> Letter O considered harmful
17:09:17 <ehird> During the same Fortran Standards Committee meeting at which the name "FORTRAN 77" was chosen, a technical proposal was somehow smuggled into the official distribution, bearing the title, "Letter O considered harmful". This deceptively simple proposal purported to address the confusion that sometimes arises between the letter "O" and the numeral zero, by eliminating the letter from allowable variable names. However, the method proposed was to eliminate t
17:09:22 <ehird> he letter from the character set entirely (thereby retaining 48 as the number of lexical characters, which the colon had increased to 49).
17:09:25 <ehird> Among the "PRO" arguments was the assertion that this would also promote structured programming, by making it impossible to use the notorious GO TO statement as before. (Troublesome FORMAT statements would be eliminated, as well.)
17:09:29 <ehird> The sole "CON" argument conceded that "this might invalidate some existing programs" but noted that most of these "probably were non-conforming, anyway".[16][17]
17:14:44 <ehird> http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6782/hackerbymetallicbox.jpg
17:16:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
17:16:29 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
17:16:33 <fungot> asiekierka: two lines located on the serial bus secondary device address, the microprocessor from a low active chip select conditions have been moved up, or via dedicated handshaking lines.
17:17:22 <ehird> "Mitnick served five years in prison, of which four and a half years were pre-trial and eight months were in solitary confinement because the Judge was convinced he could start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone if he were near one."
17:17:23 <ehird> I WHISTLED FOR A NUCLEAR BOMB AND WHEN IT CAME NEAR THE LICENSE PLACE SAID "FRESH" AND HAD DICE IN THE MIRROR
17:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from
17:44:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it's complicated.
17:44:32 <ehird> which quote are we referring to?
17:44:45 <AnMaster> the one about the nuclear war and the judge
17:45:27 <AnMaster> ehird, though I guess I should ask about the upper case line too.
17:45:45 <ehird> [[Kevin Mitnick]].
17:46:27 <ehird> And the UPPERCASE QUOTE is from The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air's theme song; if you don't have an attuned sense of post-hipster irony it may just be best to know that it's a *chan meme.
17:47:04 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:47:36 <ehird> s/CAB/NUCLEAR BOMB/
17:47:38 <ehird> Just a minor adjustment.
17:47:39 <AnMaster> "In addition, as per the plea deal, Mitnick was prohibited from profiting from films or books that are based on his criminal activity for a period of seven years."
17:47:50 <ehird> What do you mean, what?
17:48:06 <ehird> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159784/
17:48:18 <ehird> There was a movie made ... very, very loosely based ... on Mitnick.
17:48:26 <ehird> Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery loosely.
17:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, why would he be forbidden from making money on such movies
17:50:33 <AnMaster> I can't see how a movie would harm anyone
17:50:36 <ehird> AnMaster: To stop him coming out on top?
17:50:44 <ehird> If he profits from selling his story, he's profiting from committing crimes. Indirectly.
17:50:50 <ehird> It's stupid, but I can see where it's coming from.
17:50:54 <AnMaster> ok, makes kind of sense I guess.
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18:08:01 <ehird> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1562#comment-18623
18:09:48 <fizzie> The nuclear war quote is a "sourced statement" in the sense that it's from a newspiece saying "-- Mitnick was put in solitary confinement and prevented from using a phone after law enforcement officials convinced a judge that he had the ability to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone, he [Mitnick] said." A bit funny that Wikipedia presents it as fact.
18:11:55 <pikhq> Mitnick able to start a nuclear war by whistling into a pay phone?
18:12:17 <pikhq> Could we *seriously* get some judges that know anything about the technology they maintain?
18:14:12 <fizzie> Given that it's only Mitnick himself who said they were worried about he being able to start a nuclear war, it is conceivable that he might have been a bit hyperbolic there.
18:14:44 <pikhq> By '95, inband signaling was outmoded.
18:15:10 <pikhq> So, he couldn't even conceivably do the Cap'n Crunch hack and get free long distance.
18:15:35 <fizzie> (Not that knowledge and judges exactly seem to meet often in, say, the EFF legal case descriptions.)
18:16:03 <pikhq> And legislators aren't much better.
18:16:27 <pikhq> (come on people: making bits uncopiable is like making water not wet. You're not doing it.)
18:17:06 <ehird> I nevercopybitslu1
18:17:15 <ehird> *I nevrcopybitslu1
18:17:45 <pikhq> I sense copied bits.
18:17:57 <ehird> well i was not copying bytes can I get off with a slap on he wrist
18:27:51 <asiekierka> I have getc/putc already. What else do I need?
18:28:19 <asiekierka> i have getc, putc/puts, hex2string, divmod (crappy), initalization. What do I need next for my C64 kernel?
18:31:14 <fizzie> Generally speaking, a process scheduler is often a nice thing to have in an operating system.
18:31:22 <pikhq> Possibly also a fork.
18:32:23 <fizzie> I guess the order is up to you; most people certainly would appreciate a file system too, yes.
18:33:13 <asiekierka> Well, the filesystem is Commodore default
18:33:39 <asiekierka> also, forking needs a whole multitasking infrastructure
18:34:44 <fizzie> It's more than what DOS had. :p
18:34:55 <asiekierka> I need to make the CIA programming code, the "state copier" code, and the "process selector" code
18:36:21 <fizzie> Anyway, with "file system" I was more talking about the kernel/user interface for accessing files than any on-disk formats or such.
18:36:50 <asiekierka> i do need the kernel interface to access files
18:36:58 <asiekierka> but yeah, I should get forking there first
18:37:17 <ehird> Forking operating system!
18:37:21 <ehird> Forking computer! Just work!
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18:49:50 <ehird> % sudo port install xorg
18:49:55 <ehird> [giant lag as a slow tcl program calculates dependencies]
18:49:59 <ehird> it's been going for ~5 minutes now
18:51:06 <fizzie> What's wrong with X11.app, then?
18:51:43 <ehird> fizzie: This is the same Xquartz codebase, actually; it's just that MacPorts' matlab needs xorg-xextproto thing, and:
18:51:45 <ehird> Requested 'x11 >= 1.1.99.1' but version of X11 is 1.1.5
18:51:59 <ehird> and I looked for the new X11.app but it wants me to upgrade OS X to a newer minor release and I can't be bothered
18:52:13 <pikhq> ehird: What version of Tcl does that sucker run on?
18:52:15 <ehird> so i'm installing via this, which hopefully won't say thus
18:52:28 <ehird> % sudo port install xorg
18:52:29 <ehird> ---> Fetching xorg-applewmproto
18:52:32 <ehird> pikhq: how do I check
18:52:49 <ehird> as it tried to install xorg, the same error
18:52:49 <fizzie> There's a matlab in macports?
18:53:33 <pikhq> Hmm. I could've sworn 8.5 had a good bytecode compiler.
18:53:42 <ehird> X11, or X, is a vendor-neutral, system-architecture neutral \
18:53:44 <ehird> network-transparent window system and user interface standard. \
18:53:46 <ehird> In other words, it is a GUI for UNIX. X can use your network -- \
18:53:48 <ehird> you may run CPU-intensive programs on high powered workstations \
18:53:50 <ehird> and display the user interface, the windows, on inexpensive \
18:54:23 <ehird> How can I obliterate AppleX11 from my system, one wonders.
18:54:59 <ehird> pikhq: I'm pretty sure the usual X11 files are shat in their usual place.
18:55:08 <ehird> pikhq: Evidence: I have a /usr/X11.
18:55:11 <ehird> Guess I'll obliterate that too.
18:55:17 <pikhq> That's vomit-worthy.
18:55:25 <ehird> pikhq: Xorg's organizational system is vomit-worthy.
18:55:33 <ehird> I mean, /usr/X11? C'mon, that's not very unix of you.
18:55:44 <ehird> /opt/X11 is FHS, /usr is modern-unix-OS
18:55:55 <ehird> Although Xorg uses /usr in recent versions, I think.
18:56:03 <ehird> And also uses HAL instead of xorg.conf by default, so perhaps we're seeing some sanity.
18:56:12 <pikhq> I don't have a /usr/X11.
18:56:18 <ehird> There you go then.
18:56:23 <ehird> Do you have /usr/X11R6?
18:56:35 <pikhq> I do have an xorg.conf, but that's because my monitor needs a specific modeline that can't be autodetected.
18:56:47 <fizzie> I have an /usr/X11R6, but there's only a symlink "bin -> ../bin" in it.
18:56:55 <pikhq> (the thing came with freaking Windows drivers, because it's signalling was broken)
18:56:59 <pikhq> I don't have a /usr/X11R6.
18:57:12 <pikhq> Which is good, considering I don't have X11R6 installed.
18:57:21 <ehird> pikhq: can't you configure HAL for it?
18:57:48 <pikhq> Also, when I set up X, I didn't have HAL installed.
19:00:03 <ehird> % port installed|grep xorg|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall
19:00:11 <ehird> hmm, "% port installed|grep xorg|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall xrender xpm " first actually
19:00:12 <fizzie> Heh, Debian's "x11-common" contains (in addition to the /usr/X11R6/bin -> ../bin symlink) also an /usr/bin/X11 which is a symlink to ".". I'm guessing compatibility-to-broken-programs related reasons.
19:00:15 <ehird> oh, Xft2 as well, heh.
19:02:02 <ehird> Let's try this now then.
19:02:05 <ehird> % sudo port install xorg
19:10:26 <ehird> pikhq: speed it up
19:13:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes. and you're ruining it with hyperthreading ;-)
19:14:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "cache thrashing not not cache thrashing"
19:14:30 <ehird> "hack not not hack'
19:16:00 <fungot> asiekierka: when an nmi interrupt. the table that starts at 6. bit map are arranged in 25 rows of 40 columns, the
19:17:42 <fizzie> fungot: To be honest, that wasn't so cool.
19:17:42 <fungot> fizzie: in other words, the
19:18:21 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: think i'm ruining performance on this ssd with encryption?
19:18:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: encrypting an OS drive?
19:18:49 <ehird> that would most likely be bad
19:20:50 <bsmntbombdood> echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches; dd if=data bs=1M count=2K of=/dev/null
19:20:54 <bsmntbombdood> 2147483648 bytes (2.1 GB) copied, 18.8341 s, 114 MB/s
19:20:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but if you're not doing the lvm alignment you're already showing RECKLESS ABANDON for performance, so ;-)
19:21:07 <ehird> also, sequential operations for the fail
19:21:13 <ehird> most OS work = random read/writes
19:21:27 <bsmntbombdood> well, it's supposed to get 200mb/s sequential reads is what i'm saying
19:21:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if you disabled hyperthreading, SECURE ERASE'd that drive, and set up lvm2 with the alignment incantations, you could probably get away with it
19:22:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but writes are common
19:22:50 <ehird> think about firefox
19:22:56 <ehird> visit a page? 345734859345 gajillion small writes
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19:25:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw, you are mounting /tmp as tmpfs right?
19:25:41 <ehird> loadsa speed benefits, less ssd writs
19:26:53 <AnMaster> I somehow suspect I need to work on that optimiser a bit!
19:26:55 <ehird> AnMaster: an extension of Ayn Rand's A=A?
19:27:16 <AnMaster> ehird: Partly implemented copy propagation:
19:27:25 <ehird> Slereah: JOHN GALT=JOHN GALT QED
19:27:39 <AnMaster> needs to be cleaned up to remove that dead node
19:28:25 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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19:29:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you still have hyperthreading enabled? >:)
19:30:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:30:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: then no :-P
19:30:29 <ehird> [i'm just kidding around]
19:31:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's cores
19:31:22 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: it measures in erlangs
19:31:24 <ehird> 400% is max, or maybe 800% for hyperthreading
19:31:37 <ais523> 100% means full use of one core
19:31:44 <ais523> so if you have dual-core, it can go up to 200%
19:32:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: threads, foo
19:32:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: two pthraeds can max out two cores
19:32:21 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: things that i know are singlethreaded went to 102%
19:32:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: aha, I know why
19:32:38 <ais523> and it can go higher still under certain setups, like quad-core processors
19:32:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the i7 transfers power from idle cores
19:32:48 <ehird> ais523: bsmntbombdood has a quad-core
19:32:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: to nonidle ones
19:32:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: iirc something like 30% faster clockspeed sometimes
19:33:02 <ehird> presumably it doesn't tell linux this
19:33:07 <ehird> so it can exceed 100% of stock clock speed
19:33:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you think i'm wrong?
19:34:09 <fizzie> It's a bit confusing that the "%CPU" does that 100% == full use of a single core, but in the summary "Cpu(s): 3.8%us --" it's 100% == all processors in use.
19:35:05 <bsmntbombdood> and sometimes top says that top or xterm is using like 75%, which is weird
19:42:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you'd better; it made up a large chunk of the price :P
19:42:14 <fizzie> I can't believe it's not butter.
19:43:30 <bsmntbombdood> i couldn't even play a movie at anything but the original size
19:44:56 <fizzie> You can sort-of blame Nvidia for not releasing the hardware specs like ATI/AMD did.
19:46:11 <fizzie> That's probably the other reason people haven't been reverse-engineering nvidia stuff more.
19:46:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: beats ati drivers at least
19:47:22 <fizzie> What sort of card was it again?
19:47:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how lowest-common-denominator.
19:47:30 <ehird> fizzie: really old passive Nvidia from sparkl
19:48:06 <ehird> well, okay, not old
19:48:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: an extension of Ayn Rand's A=A? <-- btw, what did you mean with that?
19:48:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it's kind of complicated
19:48:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: true. Anyway, you told me you had no gfx card requirements :P
19:48:40 <ehird> AnMaster: "Ayn Rand is a retard"
19:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand ?
19:49:14 <Slereah> I actually once tried to make a language based on A=A
19:49:15 <ehird> she's dead now, which is a positive aspect.
19:49:20 <ehird> Slereah: Objectivist C
19:49:50 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: i should have gotten a GTX 295 or something
19:50:05 <Slereah> Forgot the specs, but here's a program : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Fibo.jpg
19:50:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: is my sarcasm-o-meter setting off correct?
19:51:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: DING! Sarcasm!
19:51:20 <fizzie> The nvidia binary driver also added that VDPAU thing recently; it was long so that it supported only a bit of xvmc, and only for geforce series <=7. (The readme says G96, which is in 9400, does IDCT+motion-compensation on the card for MPEG1/2, H.264 and VC1 (WMV), and bitstream decoding only for h.264; G98 would do also the bitstream decoding part on the card for mpeg1/2 and wmv.
19:52:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so was the reading correct
19:58:26 <fizzie> My passive gf7600gt card, with it's crummy G73 gpu and no VDPAU support in the nvidia drivers, can't do 1080p video in this rather-less-than-high-end system. :/ (Admittedly I don't think I have any 1080p media either.)
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20:01:45 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Your card is somewhat shitty for 3D stuff, but should handle most any video you throw at it.
20:02:16 <bsmntbombdood> i don't think it's worth it to download a 15gb full movie though
20:03:04 <pikhq> What resolution is your monitor?
20:04:07 <pikhq> Look for 720p videos.
20:04:20 <pikhq> That being the best that your monitor can display.
20:04:36 <pikhq> And also, your graphics card is overkill for 720p video.
20:04:49 <pikhq> My Geforce 6300 does 720p video just fine. :p
20:04:55 <fizzie> This 1920x1200 would suit 1080p rather well, if I had a habit of watching any moving pictures.
20:05:05 <ehird> 20:03 bsmntbombdood: only 1280*1024
20:05:15 <ehird> why are you using such a tiny monitor on such a powerful system :P
20:05:36 <pikhq> I'm going to agree with ehird on this one.
20:05:45 <ehird> it's like wiring a cray up to a 14" CRT and playing a card game, a few decades ago
20:05:49 <pikhq> I've got a 1400x900 monitor, and that's because I'm cheap. ;)
20:06:00 <ehird> well, 14" crt isn't quite cray era
20:06:04 <ehird> let's say a dumb greenscreen terminal
20:06:15 <pikhq> Let's say a teletype.
20:06:23 <pikhq> With paper and everything.
20:06:41 <pikhq> Home computers of the era had better output.
20:06:43 <bsmntbombdood> hopefully you are not wasting your cray on rendering eye candy
20:06:47 <fizzie> Funny, according to wp "G86 and G98 [quite different from the G86 -- features VC-1 video decoding completely in hardware] cards are both sold as "8400 GS", the difference can only be told from technical specifications". It's like they *wanted* to confuse people.
20:07:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'card game' being the operative word
20:08:51 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: How many gigaflops does your computer offer?
20:09:02 <ehird> pikhq: fuck that, how many bogomips?
20:09:45 <pikhq> I don't know how many bogomips the Cray offers.
20:09:48 <fizzie> That's a lot of bogons generated.
20:10:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's not many at all
20:10:14 <ehird> turn of hyperthreading, bitch :-)
20:10:33 <pikhq> My crappy Sempron offers 3215.44 bogomips.
20:10:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: *8 because of STUPOTHREADING
20:11:12 <fizzie> I get only 2000 bogomips... though I think that number changes when the cpufreq machinery decides to go up from 1 GHz to whatever-the-normal-frequency-was.
20:12:18 <fizzie> Heh, yes. If I start a "while true; do X=y; done" loop in another terminal, the bogomips rating goes to 5628.88. (2.8 GHz seems to be the normal frequency of a X2-5600+.)
20:12:59 <ehird> Deewiant: what cpu?
20:13:00 <ais523> what's with the caps there in the variable assignment?
20:13:03 <ais523> and why that assignment at all?
20:13:05 <ehird> ofc, this is very ghz-dependent
20:13:18 <Deewiant> ehird: Q9550, overclocked to 3.something
20:13:32 <ehird> ew, overclockers. /me steps away from Deewiant
20:13:35 <ehird> dirty overclocker :|
20:13:35 <fizzie> ais523: I couldn't think of what a no-op would be.
20:13:37 <Deewiant> (Default being 2.[89]something)
20:13:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: et tu, brute‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
20:14:07 <ais523> fizzie: the null string usually works
20:14:18 <ais523> although I'm not sure offhand if it would be do; done or do done
20:14:27 <fizzie> ais523: Well, "while true; do; done" gets bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'
20:14:33 <ehird> i have an allergy to "HARDKOR" gamers and the related ilk. which happens to encompass just about anyone who knows hardware without being able to program, and anyone under the discipline of such invented by and as.
20:14:43 <fizzie> And "while true; do done" => "bash: syntax error near unexpected token `done'"
20:14:45 <ehird> if the sentence got ungrammatical later on it's because it ended up not being tuned to say what i was saying
20:14:53 <ehird> fizzie: while true; do; done
20:15:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: Interestingly, that works in zsh.
20:15:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, bash is... peculiar.
20:15:36 <ais523> "while true; do; done" fails in dash too
20:15:47 <ais523> I have it installed, but it isn't my default shell
20:16:07 <ais523> ~ $ while true; do; done
20:16:08 <ais523> sh: syntax error: ";" unexpected
20:16:55 <fizzie> Based on a very cursory glance of the bash(1) man page "shell grammar" section, I can't really construct a "null command"y thing.
20:17:00 <ais523> $ while true; do :; done
20:17:07 <ais523> : is the no-op command
20:17:21 <ais523> I'd say all commands set $?
20:17:27 <ais523> so it's correct for a nop to, too
20:17:39 <ais523> that's like complaining that NOP in asm isn't a nop because it changes the IP
20:17:42 <ehird> a nop is an uncommand!
20:17:59 <ais523> there are actually two sorts of nop
20:18:07 <ais523> which is something I'm thinking about a lot in Underlambda?
20:18:12 <ais523> what's more noppish; true, or cat?
20:18:32 <fizzie> : is described as "No effect; the command does nothing beyond expanding arguments and performing any specified redirections. A zero exit code is returned." so I guess it's a reasonably noppy thing.
20:18:36 <ehird> 20:18 ais523: which is something I'm thinking about a lot in Underlambda?
20:18:49 <fizzie> Okay, next time I need a do-nothing loop I'll certainly use :.
20:18:54 <ehird> ais523: in a pipeline, nop is cat
20:18:59 <ehird> ais523: in a sequence of commands, nop is... nothing
20:19:02 <ais523> whereas true would destroy data
20:19:18 <ais523> it's the difference between 0 and 1 in Underlambda
20:19:19 <ehird> so, the only thing you can REALLY call a nop in shell is the pipeline nop - cat
20:19:27 <ais523> as in, it destroys data
20:19:29 <ehird> cat :: String -> String; cat = id
20:19:35 <ais523> because it leaves everything the same
20:20:22 <ehird> tac = unlines . reverse . lines
20:20:40 <ehird> yay, x11 installed
20:22:13 <ehird> sudo port install maxima
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20:25:00 <ais523> ehird: why wasn't x11 installed before?
20:25:15 <ais523> I thought you'd installed it earlier, though
20:25:16 <ehird> and I removed the x11 i had
20:25:21 <ehird> 'cuz dependency issues
20:25:25 <ehird> so i installed it via macports
20:26:04 <ehird> ... and I possibly don't even need x11 for this
20:26:27 * ehird installs gnuplot +no_x11 +wxwidgets; installs tk +quartz; installs maxima
20:26:36 <ehird> which will also install sbcl, despite me having my own sbcl
20:28:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it depends on gnuplot and tk
20:28:24 <ehird> for the UI, I assume; it may not be mandatory, but I want it.
20:30:15 <ehird> But I want plots and shit too, mmkay?
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20:34:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 56k?
20:34:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why did you buy an expensive i7 pc
20:35:09 <GregorR-L> I plug my CPU directly into the intarwebs.
20:35:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tiny monitor ... shitty internet... :P
20:35:55 <ehird> it just seems a bit ridiculous
20:37:42 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood uses it to calculate the trajectory of micromissiles to kill anyone who makes fun of his monitor and/or internet connection.
20:38:12 <ehird> Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
20:40:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: I strongly suggest that you invest in bandwidth and a better monitor.
20:40:35 <bsmntbombdood> i will probably get a better monitor, the bandwidth is more difficult though
20:40:47 <pikhq> The best investment for the former, of course, is moving to Japan, but moving to any first-world nation other than the US is also a viable option.
20:40:54 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood's options are limited after he bombed Comcast's basement.
20:41:19 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Dude, you didn't ask anyone to help you bomb Comcast?
20:41:24 <pikhq> How very selfish of you!
20:41:59 <ehird> pikhq: sth korea has better bandwidth iirc
20:42:41 <pikhq> Japan has 100 Mbps for $20 a month.
20:42:42 <bsmntbombdood> japan and south korea are both places where i do not want to go
20:43:16 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Might I suggest somewhere more... Euro?
20:43:47 <ehird> avoid sweden, anmaster's there
20:44:05 <pikhq> Norway's got Oerjan, though.
20:44:13 <ehird> Go for Norway or Finland.
20:44:25 <ehird> Finland are more net-wise, iirc, and they invented IRC, and fizzie & oklopol & Deewiant
20:44:32 <fizzie> Finland has (110 Mbps down, 5 Mbps up) for $73.99/month (blame the $ exchange rate) if you don't mind the cable-modem technologistics.
20:44:38 <ehird> Norway has fjords and oerjan.
20:44:38 <fizzie> Yes, the Finns invented fizzie.
20:44:49 <ehird> fizzie: What, all of them
20:45:11 <GregorR-L> ehird: That's just how Finns breed.
20:45:17 <AnMaster> Sweden has nice Internet unless you are far out in the country.
20:45:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Where I'm at, I can get 1 Mbps down, 256k up for $69.99 a month.
20:45:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 5 up isn't all that bad...
20:45:44 <ehird> unfortunately we can't get cable here
20:45:54 <ehird> moving to finland sounds nice
20:46:00 <fizzie> With careful picking of where to live, I guess you can get reasonable prices for "100 Mbps both ways" here too; but it's not very widely available yet.
20:46:15 <pikhq> fizzie: 100 Mbps *both ways*?
20:46:25 <ehird> And downhill. Uh, both ways.
20:46:26 <fizzie> Uphill both ways, yes.
20:46:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:46:46 <pikhq> Dammit, why must *all* of your infrastructure be better than ours?
20:47:04 <ehird> fizzie: how cold is finland?
20:47:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: US. Dealing with infrastructure that was last touched when my grandmother was a child.
20:48:04 <ehird> Internet-over-phone is ridiculously stupid.
20:48:29 <Sgeo> I know at least one person still on dialup :/
20:48:31 <ehird> fizzie: so yeah, coldity?
20:48:34 <Sgeo> Well, not in person
20:48:38 <fizzie> I guess fibre/ethernet-based 100MBps-up-and-down is still only in some random places, though. Personally I'm paying something like $70/month for puny 24 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up. (I happened to pick an expensive ISP, since they do the whole static-IP, custom-reverse-DNS, native-IPv6, tech-support-that-knows-what-they're-doing thing.)
20:48:55 <fizzie> ehird: It's about +10 degrees celsius here now.
20:49:01 <pikhq> I want phone-over-Internet, TV-over-Internet, etc.-over-Internet.
20:49:01 <AnMaster> a dictionary of dictionaries of sets. Is it time to try to work out a better data representation yet?
20:49:06 <pikhq> fizzie: 24 Mbps? Puny?
20:49:07 <ehird> fizzie: what isp was that again?
20:49:13 <GregorR-L> The US got the infrastructure early, so as a result it has the oldest infrastructure. It's really quite simple.
20:49:16 <ehird> pikhq: eh, you can get that in London
20:49:17 <pikhq> That's absurdly good for the US.
20:49:39 <ehird> AnMaster: ... and?
20:49:44 <ehird> He was commenting on "puny'.
20:49:44 <AnMaster> <pikhq> That's absurdly good for the US.
20:49:49 <AnMaster> that is because it isn't the US!
20:49:50 <ehird> Don't make yourself look like a jackass...
20:49:50 <fizzie> ehird: Nebula; nbl.fi or something. Here in the southernmost points it's rather rarely below -10 degrees in the winter, though occasionally it happens.
20:50:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... And I've been talking about how the US has crappy infrastructure.
20:50:11 <ehird> fizzie: going out in anything below 10 degrees makes me feel like death
20:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you need thicker clothes then
20:50:30 <pikhq> By "crappy", I mean "Ethiopia is set to surpass us in 10 years."
20:50:36 <ehird> it's 9 centigrade today apparently
20:50:36 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
20:50:40 <ehird> and I can handle that just fine
20:50:48 <fizzie> This year we had sub-zero temperatures at night-time as recently as... some two-and-a-half weeks ago?
20:50:49 <ehird> so -10 i could probably manage at worst.
20:50:57 <ehird> night-time doesn't bother me
20:51:13 <ehird> fizzie: do you think these uphill-both-ways isp do the ipv6 stuffs too?
20:51:24 <ehird> i mean, it's not like moving to finland is possible or feasible, but IN MY MIND it could be
20:51:29 <ehird> i could move my mind to finland
20:51:32 <ehird> and keep my body here
20:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, remember you will have to learn Finnish when moving there!
20:51:52 <pikhq> I could learn Finnish.
20:52:07 <GregorR-L> ehird: Unfortunately, the mind-Finland uplink is over 56k.
20:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I've tried learning languages before and failing, but I could probably get by to start with using basic vernacular...
20:52:18 <oerjan> pikhq: i recall reading that somalia has pretty kickass cell phone network
20:52:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: AIEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:52:42 <oerjan> because there was no state to regulate it
20:52:44 <fizzie> ehird: I don't think they do. I'm not quite sure where they are available, to be honest. Can't find any availability maps.
20:52:46 <pikhq> We're speaking one of the most commonly spoken languages right now. :)
20:53:06 <pikhq> oerjan: That's the first time I've heard of a lack of regulation creating competition.
20:53:07 <ehird> fizzie: hmm... what about the 100mbps both ways, it'd be supernice to have fast internet + ipv6 + reverse dns
20:53:25 * pikhq has been dropping words lately today. :(
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20:53:40 <fizzie> ehird: Well, the student housing at our university has that. :p
20:53:52 <ehird> fizzie: that's a rather unhelpful option :P
20:53:57 <ehird> what about the 100mbps one way
20:53:59 <pikhq> fizzie: ... Your university gets 100mbps?
20:54:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm not sure that is true actually.
20:54:03 <ehird> is what i meant to say lately
20:54:12 <pikhq> I don't think mine has that on our *LAN*.
20:54:14 <ehird> (i don't really talk much outside anyway, so finnish probably wouldn't be a problem for a good amount of time)
20:54:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, French is harder, trust me. I took French in school some years ago.
20:54:21 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, well... I think it's a shared 1 Gbps uplink to the interwebs, though.
20:54:41 <fizzie> pikhq: Or maybe they updated that to 10 Gbps already. I'm not quite sure.
20:54:59 * pikhq is jealous either way
20:55:22 <AnMaster> sure English has that too, but not to the same degree.
20:55:44 <ehird> lol— someone said that a password-removing thingy for linux/windows didn't work on OS X
20:55:49 <ehird> Power button Command-S 'nuff said.
20:55:53 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, the student housing network people upgraded the main Funet (Finnish university network thing, through which their internet goes) link to 10-gigabit-Ethernet on April 2nd.
20:55:55 <AnMaster> and except for "be", a simple rule for I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they
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20:55:59 <ehird> EFI-level backdoors FTW...
20:56:29 <ehird> AnMaster: boots into single-user mode
20:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you can set EFI password
20:56:51 <ehird> AnMaster: yeaah but i doubt this retard has
20:56:55 <AnMaster> that is needed for all non-normal boots
20:57:01 <ehird> AnMaster: you can encrypt your HD too
20:57:01 <fizzie> ehird: Oh, and the 110Mbps-down-5Mbps-up cable-TV-company/ISP is Welho, which is rather in the clueless group of ISPs, so I really don't think they do any IPv6 stuff or anything.
20:57:08 <ehird> so there's easy ways to prevent it; just not common ones
20:57:21 <ehird> fizzie: shit sucks.
20:57:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it comes with truecrypt built in
20:57:35 <ehird> and a UI to use it
20:57:43 <pikhq> fizzie: Most cities in the US are doing well to get 5Mbps down.
20:57:44 <fizzie> Most of the ISPs here have some silly "you are forbidden to run any server applications in your pipe" things in their contracts, and the general level of service for home customers seems to be "you get 5 IPs over DHCP and that's it".
20:57:57 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some "encrypt home dir"
20:57:58 <ehird> AnMaster: yes. Although, caution in that truecrypt, while open source, is shady.
20:58:03 <pikhq> We've got monopolies everywhere.
20:58:09 <ehird> The mods delete questions about the changelogs etc on their forums
20:58:13 <ehird> and they just release source tarball
20:58:17 <ehird> but, it has it built in.
20:58:31 <pikhq> Well, except for dialup providers. Those still compete with each other.
20:58:33 <AnMaster> ehird, does it let you encrypt the system dir :D
20:58:35 <fizzie> pikhq: I think the 24 Mbps down (well, theoretical; I get ~19 Mbps here) ADSL2+ thing is pretty widely available here, though personally I only know about the situation around the capital city here.
20:58:38 <ehird> I think so, AnMaster.
20:58:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, presumably it'd leave the bootloader unencrypted.
20:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, and have you ordered that linux PC yet btw :)
20:59:09 <ehird> I need to assemble a bag of parts, make sure the psu is fine, etc
20:59:13 <ehird> so it'll be a lil bit
20:59:20 <pikhq> fizzie: And you guys even get actual bandwidth close to what's advertised?
20:59:26 <pikhq> That's even more impressive.
20:59:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and your befunge interpreter, how is it coming along :)
20:59:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I think I will stab you with a stick.
20:59:56 <pikhq> I expect next you'll be telling me that your cable service doesn't recompress HD streams to the point that they're unwatchable?
21:00:01 <ehird> For asking that :)
21:00:25 <ehird> pikhq: let's move to Finland; we can pool our resources to pay for residence and kick-ass internet
21:00:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, um, Why do you use cable instead of your own antenna.
21:00:53 <pikhq> ehird: We'll probably be better able to pay for university, too.
21:00:59 <Deewiant> pikhq: I measured my connection last weekend and it indeed managed something like 107/4.8 Mib/s
21:01:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you... are you...
21:01:05 <ehird> Do you even know what...
21:01:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because that gets us 2 stations.
21:01:20 <ehird> AnMaster: cable channels are not the same as analogue channels
21:01:29 <ehird> also, analogue is terrible quality
21:01:37 <AnMaster> ehird, there are no analogue channels in Sweden. They are digital, over antenna
21:01:56 <AnMaster> some kind of political motivation for switching to that.
21:02:02 <pikhq> ehird: Nearly 3/4ths of our analog broadcasters were shut down.
21:02:11 <ehird> pikhq: there are only 5 analogue channels in the uk
21:02:12 <pikhq> As of June, all OTA signals in the US will be digital.
21:02:27 <ehird> and digital = non-antenna in the UK
21:02:34 <ehird> I don't know about this digital-antenna shit but we have none of it
21:02:37 <pikhq> Oh, the UK. The *other* country with third-world infrastructure.
21:02:43 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you call it "shit"
21:02:56 <pikhq> Though I thought you guys had nearly 75% coverage with Freeview?
21:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: shit does not mean rubbish
21:03:03 <ehird> unless it means rubbish
21:03:05 <ehird> in which case it means rubbish
21:03:32 <pikhq> ehird: At least you've got OTA stations worth watching.
21:03:33 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, and "freesat from sky", which has a marginally better channel choice, so we use it. We also have Sky, but $$$ and the channels are shit.
21:03:36 <ehird> Also bbc's HD freesat.
21:03:44 <ehird> pikhq: you sure about that?
21:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, but no I can't say I'm able to detect the difference between shit::stuff() and shit::rubbish()
21:03:50 <ehird> channel 4 and some stuff on five, maybe
21:03:54 <ehird> and a few bbc documentaries
21:03:59 <pikhq> Which is more than we have.
21:04:00 <ehird> but most of BBC 1 stuff, and all of ITV, is rubbish
21:04:02 <AnMaster> err, sorry, wrong type description language
21:04:08 <pikhq> You know the channels you get on Sky?
21:04:21 <pikhq> That's US television.
21:04:35 <ehird> It's pretty awful.
21:04:49 <ehird> fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 88478(tid 2685568800):
21:04:50 <ehird> bad runtime option "--userinit"
21:05:04 <pikhq> US culture is pretty nice. When you remove the corporations from it.
21:05:17 <pikhq> ... That is, when you remove the last 50 to 100 years of it. :p
21:06:16 <ehird> Maxima 5.18.1 http://maxima.sourceforge.net
21:06:18 <ehird> Using Lisp SBCL 1.0.28
21:06:20 <ehird> Distributed under the GNU Public License. See the file COPYING.
21:06:22 <ehird> Dedicated to the memory of William Schelter.
21:06:24 <ehird> The function bug_report() provides bug reporting information.
21:07:17 <ehird> YAY xmaxima starts
21:07:42 <ehird> Terribly ugly, but!
21:09:27 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's that Welho 110/5?
21:09:43 <ehird> There's a wxmaxima.
21:09:53 <ehird> Deewiant: context?
21:10:32 <fizzie> ehird: <Deewiant> pikhq: I measured my connection last weekend and it indeed managed something like 107/4.8 Mib/s
21:10:47 <ehird> Deewiant: Do they do ipv6?
21:11:05 <Deewiant> I'm not on that connection now so I can't test.
21:11:40 <Deewiant> Most Finnish ISPs probably don't, only Nebula or whatever it was that fizzie hyped.
21:12:11 <ehird> Deewiant: But Nebula doesn't do the fast!
21:12:18 <ehird> Finns are internetty people :<
21:12:39 <pikhq> In 2012, the US will still have people with 56k modems.
21:12:47 <pikhq> ... As their only option.
21:13:14 <pikhq> I don't think you understand how US infrastructure works.
21:13:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> There's a wxmaxima. <-- yes I use it personally
21:13:26 <pikhq> The US will be the last holdout on IPv4.
21:13:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I'm being a happy optimist :P
21:13:36 <pikhq> I expect us to upgrade sometime after World War III.
21:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you get just a simple maxima console with it?
21:13:41 <ehird> where you can plot and stuff
21:13:57 <ehird> AnMaster: just a regular maxima REPL
21:13:58 <fizzie> Nebula's fastest one with a price that's not "ask us" is 48M/6M, which is basically two bonded ADSL2+ channels; and that's horribly expensive, $200/month or so.
21:14:06 <pikhq> ... Speaking of. Anyone want to play global thermonuclear war?
21:14:10 <ehird> fizzie: what would ask us imply
21:14:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what you get in the main text box of wxmaxima?
21:14:18 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, "Maxima process terminated."
21:14:26 <ehird> guess i have to done configure shit
21:14:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds like what is technically called "a bug"
21:14:38 <fizzie> ehird: Probably at least more than that.
21:14:45 <AnMaster> ehird, it worked out of box for me on Gentoo :D
21:14:55 <ehird> fizzie: but also $$$
21:15:07 <ehird> AnMaster: seems my maxima install isn't workin'
21:15:24 <ehird> "Maxima program: /opt/local/bin/maxima"
21:15:28 <AnMaster> and I don't know, since it just worked out of box here
21:15:40 <fizzie> ehird: There's on their product list "SHDSL/EFM 2-100M" (and I think that technology implies the same speed both ways, so you could get 100M/100M) but it's probably a really large pile of $s for that.
21:15:48 <ehird> add "-s 4010" to additional parameters
21:16:07 <ehird> connect maxima to server on port N
21:16:13 <ehird> and 4010 was in the prefs as wxmaxima's port
21:16:29 <ehird> Maxima encountered a Lisp error:
21:16:29 <ehird> The function SETUP-SERVER is undefined.
21:16:31 <AnMaster> ehird, there are no extra parameters here
21:18:16 <AnMaster> ehird, wxmaxima preferences screenshot, in case it helps: http://omploader.org/vMW95dA
21:18:29 <ehird> ew, you're using clisp
21:18:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah sbcl had issues for me.
21:18:59 <AnMaster> ehird, specifically, it doesn't work if you turn off overcommitting memory.
21:19:01 <ehird> after setup-server failing it works
21:19:10 <ehird> it's its whole memory model
21:19:12 <ehird> so don't turn that off
21:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I consider the program that needs it buggy
21:19:29 <ehird> no, it's by design
21:19:33 <ehird> it reserves a pool of memory
21:19:58 <ehird> what's wrong with overcommits
21:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the fact that the OOM killer can kill any process. Not just the offending one (which isn't trivial to figure out either)
21:20:48 <ehird> Disable the OOM killer, then.
21:21:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, that is what I did, when you disable it, you disable memory overcommit
21:21:44 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you handle out of memory when overcommit is in use, without an OOM killer
21:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: you can refuse to allocate
21:22:12 <ehird> if you run out of real memory
21:22:22 <AnMaster> ehird, um, you already did when you overcommited.
21:22:32 <ehird> you ran out of virtual memory
21:23:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well I have 1.5 GB RAM. So It would refuse to allocate that 8 GB block in either case.
21:23:36 <AnMaster> ehird, then what exactly do you mean
21:23:40 <ehird> you have 1.5GB of PHYSICAL ram
21:23:44 <ehird> you only refuse to allocate when you run out of i
21:23:57 <ehird> AnMaster: the 8GB would fail if and only if you were out of physical memory
21:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what overcommit is. But it doesn't solve the issue.
21:24:24 <AnMaster> Since you could allocate those 8 GB and then start filling it!
21:24:25 <ehird> what issue? it's overcommit without OOM killer
21:24:47 <AnMaster> what would happen when it loaded data in more than 1.5 GB + 1.5 GB of swap
21:26:01 <AnMaster> ehird, But what if the app filled all but one page of that. And then syslog came along and wanted two extra pages (it also pre-allocated that).
21:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, sure this is such a good idea?
21:26:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you're out of memory.
21:26:36 <ehird> you can't expect everything to go swimmingly when you're out of memory
21:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why you disable memory overcommit
21:26:49 <AnMaster> so apps can handle it gracefully.
21:27:02 <AnMaster> or at least log an error and exit
21:27:06 <ehird> evidently you're not listening to me, so I won't bother
21:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, evidently you're not listening to me either.
21:27:31 <AnMaster> ehird, and, OOM killer is exactly what you suggested above
21:27:39 <ehird> ooh awesome, you have to use "wxplot2d" instead of "plot2d".
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21:28:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it SIGSEGVs (or SIGKILLs forgot which) the process that tries to use more than the RAM around.
21:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so you just reinvented the OOM killer
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21:28:48 <AnMaster> ehird, got a suggestion NOT involving the OOM killer.
21:28:49 <ais523> actually, the OOM killer uses a different algorithm to "the first process to request memory"
21:29:04 <AnMaster> ais523, right, it used to use that algo before though iirc.
21:29:23 <AnMaster> iirc nowdays it tries to find memory offender and avoid init
21:30:08 <ais523> going for today, anyway; bye everyone!
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21:39:32 <fizzie> Current OOM killer chooses the "worst" process, worst being defined as the one which gets most points from the badness() function; that's mostly based on the total memory size of the process, plus half the vmsize of its children (to kill memory-hungry forking servers), and tweaks (points /= sqrt(cpu_time), points /= sqrt(sqrt(run_time)), *2 for niced processes because they're unimportant, /4 for SYS_ADMIN/SYS_RESOURCE/SYS_RAWIO processes, ...)
21:41:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's some sort of justification for most things, but for the time-based ones... "CPU time is in tens of seconds and run time is in thousands of seconds. There is no particular reason for this other than that it turned out to work very well in practice."
21:42:01 <Deewiant> But in general, that. sqrt one and sqrt-sqrt the other, *2 for something, /4 for something else...
21:42:13 <fizzie> The "half of children" is there so that it kills servers with memory-hungry children, but (since it's only half) it kills a particular child if it's only that child that's eating most of the memory.
21:42:17 <Deewiant> The justification is, of course, that it works well.
21:42:26 <Deewiant> But I still don't like that kind of arbitrary stuff. :-/
21:42:39 <fizzie> Yes, the actual amount of the adjustment is pretty arbitrary.
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21:43:28 <fizzie> (It's actually first /4 for cap_sys_admin/cap_sys_resource processes, and then a further /4 for cap_sys_rawio, so I guess some processes could get /16 out of that.)
21:43:51 <fizzie> Too bad top can't show the badness values; I'd actually like to know what it would kill first here.
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21:45:55 <fizzie> (Okay, with 783/3951MB memory use it's not likely to kill anything, but still.)
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21:58:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can see it in /proc/pid/oom_* iirc
21:58:26 <AnMaster> to make it less likely to kill some specific process
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22:01:34 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's the oom_score. I did notice the oom_adj tweak though.
22:03:17 <Sgeo> I AM GOING TO BRUTALLY MURDER PAYPAL
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22:03:33 <fizzie> Heh.This is a bit... suspicious. The process most likely to be killed is "vi oom_kill.c". Protecting itself, is it?
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22:06:49 <oerjan> whatever you do, don't try to shut it off
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22:08:10 <Sgeo> Any help here?
22:08:22 <Sgeo> Oh, I forgot to say what I need help with
22:08:23 <Sgeo> Does anyone know how to force paypal to let me pay with the money that I have in there already, without connecting it to RL financials?
22:09:47 <fizzie> "for pid in [0-9]*; do echo `cat $pid/oom_score`: `cat $pid/cmdline | tr '\0' ' '`; done | sort -n | tail" seems to be a useful oom-score viewer.
22:10:20 <Deewiant> I was trying to do that and wondering why my output was all b0rken
22:10:57 <Deewiant> 1153943: C:\windows\system32\services.exe
22:11:21 <fizzie> Currently it seems to want to kill a un-offending "vi" that has some random notes in it, and "urxvtd" (which would kill all my terminal windows) is second. Third is PostgreSQL.
22:11:36 <fizzie> Would've though Firefox to be a candidate, too, but I guess it's been running for quite a while.
22:12:02 <Deewiant> Then more Wine-stuff, then init.
22:12:09 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:13:26 <fizzie> 1153943 is quite a score; my winner just gets 19574.
22:14:03 <Deewiant> With 'tail' my lowest is 45405
22:14:29 <fizzie> I have values 9807-19574 in the... "top-10", or "bottom-10", or anything.
22:14:39 <fizzie> Init gets 15644 here, #4.
22:14:49 <Deewiant> Openbox, the current #2, is 593089
22:14:58 <fizzie> Your numbers are bigger.
22:15:18 <fizzie> Wouldn't think you have *that* much more memory (or bigger processes), though; 4G here.
22:15:38 <Deewiant> I have a bunch of zeroes with empty command lines, /sbin/udevd is the lowest 'real' process at 0
22:16:02 <Deewiant> I've got 8G of memory, init's virtual size is 3784 (K, I guess)
22:16:20 <fizzie> Those empty ones are the kernel threads, I guess.
22:16:25 <Deewiant> Maybe your uptime is just so huge?
22:16:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:16:25 <pikhq> What, and you don't have gettys?
22:16:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:17:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:17:13 <Deewiant> mount.ntfs-3g has 17, being the second-lowest process with a cmdline
22:17:14 <fizzie> If you replace the $pid/cmdline cat with "ps hp $pid" you get their names too, but that's not exactly interesting since the scores are 0.
22:17:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:17:46 <fizzie> My lowest-scoring ones are at score 14: five gettys, klogd and acpid.
22:18:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:18:41 <Deewiant> Well, mine is less than 13 hours
22:19:31 <pikhq> 1153026: c:\windows\system32\services.exe
22:19:37 <pikhq> Definitely no surprises there.
22:21:06 <Deewiant> That took off, for some reason
22:22:07 <fizzie> Heh, I opened another "vi oom_kill.c", and it jumped to #1, with a 39198 score. It's definitely some sort of self-protecting thing.
22:22:19 <Deewiant> Wonder what that 'supervising' is about
22:22:51 <pikhq> Why is argv[0] SCREEN?
22:23:35 <pikhq> 2324: /usr/bin/../lib32/../bin/wineserver
22:23:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: "-:0" seems to be wdm, actually.
22:23:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: My OS is much less self-protective; it only gave 13841 to a vim oom_kill.c
22:24:05 <pikhq> bin/../lib32/../bin/
22:24:19 <Deewiant> Meanwhile, openbox is trying to show off
22:24:55 <fizzie> Well, a subprocess of wdm, anyway. It's a sibling of the actual X server, the one that's the immediate parent of the actual X session.
22:25:31 <Deewiant> /bin/login -- -> -zsh -> /bin/sh /usr/bin/startx -> xinit
22:25:52 <Deewiant> Which would explain it, I guess.
22:26:05 <fizzie> Funny, the ones I have score=0 (udevd and sshd) also have a -17 in the oom_adj file. I guess someone's protecting them.
22:26:33 <Deewiant> Indeed, udevd has -17 here as well
22:26:34 <fizzie> "export SSHD_OOM_ADJUST=-17" in Debian's /etc/init.d/ssh script.
22:26:43 <Deewiant> sshd has no such protection and is at 405
22:27:04 <Deewiant> dhcpcd and crond are much lower, at 64 and 45 respectively
22:27:47 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:27:48 <fizzie> I guess they're trying to avoid the "tra-la-la, I'm remotely administering my system that's 500 miles away in a locked room... hmm, I seem to be running a bit low on memory, let's see... hey, why did it get disconnected?" case.
22:28:13 <Deewiant> That makes sense, but I can't really conceive of a case where sshd would be the one to be killed
22:28:17 <fizzie> Though Murphy's law says the frustrated OOM killer is just going to kill the shell.
22:28:52 <Deewiant> The 'sort -n' on the output of that has a higher value than firefox
22:29:24 <fizzie> I've wondered about SCREEN uppercasing its name earlier, too. Not sure why it does that.
22:30:37 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:30:49 <fizzie> if (!strncmp("screen", ap, 6)) { strncpy(ap, "SCREEN", 6); /* name this process "SCREEN-BACKEND" */
22:30:56 <fizzie> That's not really a justification there.
22:31:05 <fizzie> It doesn't even name it SCREEN-BACKEND.
22:31:17 <Deewiant> strncpy(ap, "JOE", 3); /* name this process JACK */
22:32:13 <fizzie> That test is done "while (ap >= av0)" and after that there's ap--;
22:32:20 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Heh.This is a bit... suspicious. The process most likely to be killed is "vi oom_kill.c". Protecting itself, is it?
22:32:37 <ehird> 22:09 bsmntbombdood: hehe
22:32:37 <ehird> 22:09 bsmntbombdood: tmpfs is awesome
22:35:06 <AnMaster> wow, would be enough to build open office ON A RAM DISK right?
22:35:53 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, would be a tight fit if you had source tree on ram disk too though
22:36:45 <ehird> AnMaster: not crazy
22:36:50 <ehird> 12GB is common for i7
22:37:11 <ehird> Deewiant: i7 is the uncommon thing.
22:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "crazy being able to build OpenOffice on a ram disk"
22:38:13 <Deewiant> ehird: I'd say 6 Go is more common
22:38:41 <ehird> but it's more like 6GB: 55% 12GB: 45%
22:38:55 <Deewiant> As Core i7 increases in popularity that ratio will shift
22:38:57 <ehird> since i7 is, well, excessive.
22:39:06 <fizzie> 87 % of statistics are all made up on the spot.
22:39:08 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Giga-octets. <-- really?
22:39:18 <ehird> Deewiant: i7 IS for mega-super-gamer-moneywasters...
22:39:42 <Deewiant> ehird: For now, since it's the new thing.
22:39:55 <Deewiant> ehird: Having more than one CPU core was like that a couple of years back.
22:39:59 <ehird> Deewiant: They're planning on a separate model for regular people.
22:41:14 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where they're getting the numbers from.
22:41:39 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_i5
22:41:44 <ehird> Core i5 (codenamed Lynnfield)[1] is an upcoming family of Intel desktop x86-64 microprocessors. It is scheduled to be released in the third quarter of 2009[2] using the Intel Nehalem microarchitecture and is a mainstream variant to the Intel Core i7 family
22:41:57 <ehird> so, I predict that 6GB only being slightly more popular than 12GB for i7 will continue
22:42:05 <ehird> also typing without one finger is hard
22:43:25 <fizzie> You were in a gruesome industrial accident and lost a finger? Oh, not that? Aww. :/
22:44:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Because everyone is excessive like you :)
22:46:10 <fizzie> Well, "mainstream" *is* an anagram for "mate rams in".
22:48:09 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:49:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: there seems to be a tendency to overupgrade when you have obsolete hw :)
22:50:05 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, since you have so much ram, would you mind compiling something for me, which is too large for me to test. GCC OOMs here.
22:50:59 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, current LostKing from my BF-to-(C|other backends planned) compiler
22:51:05 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it is auto generated.
22:51:08 <ehird> AnMaster: it'd take hours
22:51:11 <fizzie> Oh, I hadn't run into "slabtop" earlier. It seems to be for when you want to see how the kernel's wasting memory.
22:51:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd be happy with -O0 or -O1
22:51:46 <ehird> enable overcommit :P
22:52:47 <fizzie> I could compile it on that "64GB of memory" shell server, but I guess that would be abusing it somewhat. (And I wouldn't be too surprised if they'd actually added some ulimits there.)
22:53:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/LostKng.b.c.gz compile with: gunzip LostKng.b.c.gz; gcc -std=c99 LostKng.b.c
22:53:36 <fizzie> Well, the shell server is in test use right now, and they did tell us to report any problems. :p
22:53:37 <AnMaster> anyway I'm just interested in if it produces a correct program atm.
22:54:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:54:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... You still gzip things?
22:54:07 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, If you do get a working binary: tell me how large it is
22:54:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do -mtune=i7
22:54:35 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yeah, but not Intel specifc. -march=athlon64 here :P
22:55:04 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: It's a generic shell server for all the university's... 10k or so students, I guess.
22:55:12 <AnMaster> actually, -march=athlon64-sse3 for me, if gcc is recent enough
22:55:39 <pikhq> -march=athlon64-sse3 instead of -march=athlon64 -msse3? Whoo.
22:55:48 <bsmntbombdood> nice -n 19 gcc LostKng.b.c -std=c99 -O2 -march=athlon64-sse3
22:55:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, scheduling differences iirc
22:55:54 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXnvVlNOcoM Pentium 3!
22:55:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err
22:56:05 <ehird> how about neutral amd64
22:56:07 <fizzie> rogue ~ 32 % gcc -o LostKng LostKng.b.c -O0
22:56:07 <fizzie> rogue ~ 33 % ls -l LostKng
22:56:07 <fizzie> -rwxr-xr-x 1 htkallas users 1698778 May 18 00:55 LostKng
22:56:11 <ehird> so you can actually run it?
22:56:15 <ehird> fizzie: wow, that was fast
22:56:36 <AnMaster> -march=generic -mtune=athlon64-sse3
22:56:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: brainfuck adventure game
22:56:42 <fizzie> rogue ~ 34 % ./LostKng
22:56:42 <fizzie> (C) Jon Ripley 2004, 2005
22:56:42 <fizzie> Brainfuck Edition v0.11
22:56:46 <fizzie> It seems to mostly work.
22:56:49 <ehird> translated from BF-BASIC
22:57:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, I mean, as far as I've tested.
22:57:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just pasted you the "ls -l" up there.
22:57:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 64GB of ram
22:57:26 <ehird> so I assume several Xeons
22:57:30 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: "2 x E5450 @ 3.00GHz"
22:57:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, if it is something I can run, could you put it somewhere I can download it
22:57:51 <ehird> are thos edual core?
22:57:55 <ehird> they're xeon harpertowns
22:58:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I was asking about the system.
22:58:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: I didn't give any flags, so I guess it should be quite generic.
22:58:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, can ou put it somewhere for download then!
22:58:36 * pikhq goes to recompile his entire system
22:58:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://users.tkk.fi/~htkallas/LostKng should work.
22:58:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: Changed CFLAGS.
22:58:56 <ehird> that's what they do
22:59:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, um, and? You can recompile it as you go
22:59:08 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just wget it.
22:59:30 <fizzie> It didn't quite guess the content-type, since there was no extension.
22:59:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, I just told what wget said
22:59:37 <fizzie> Maybe I should've gzipped it.
22:59:45 <fizzie> Runs on my Athlon X2, anyway.
22:59:49 <pikhq> Eh, I've changed a few other things than just CFLAGS.
22:59:52 <AnMaster> better guess for application/octet-stream
22:59:58 <pikhq> CFLAGS is just the straw that broke the camel's back.
23:00:11 <Deewiant> Why is octet-stream application/ anyway
23:00:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just ^C it and "-O3 -march=i7 -mtune=i7" if you're in for the long haul
23:00:35 <AnMaster> application, image, text, audio, video?
23:00:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: then you'll get a result you can actually use... and that is super-fast
23:00:50 <fizzie> IANA has defined application, audio, example, image, message, model, multipart, text and video.
23:00:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bah :)
23:01:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'd like to be able to run it
23:01:14 <ehird> AnMaster: fizzie just compiled it for you.
23:01:16 <fizzie> VRML, for example, is model/vrml.
23:01:26 <pikhq> ehird: -march implies -mtune.
23:01:40 <ehird> AnMaster: he didn't do -O2
23:01:48 <Deewiant> ehird: mtune is "do generic stuff that is faster on this arch", march is "do generic and this-arch-specific stuff that is faster on this arch"
23:02:09 <bsmntbombdood> fizzie: time -O2, i want to see how much faster than xeon is
23:02:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: its not current-gen xen
23:02:39 <fizzie> VRML, for example, is model/vrml.
23:02:44 <ehird> Annoying thing with OS X's invert screen feature: it doesn't fix up subpixel rendering.
23:02:50 <ehird> fizzie: VRML, for example, is model/vrml.
23:02:51 <fizzie> Waiting for the O2 now.
23:02:55 <ehird> I repeat myself. I repeat myself.
23:02:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about example and message?
23:03:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you got 8M of l3
23:03:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: "The 'example' media type is used for examples. Any subtype following the media type syntax may be used in those examples. No subtype can be registered with IANA."
23:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, and GCC is single threaded.
23:03:48 <ehird> AnMaster: 256K L2 per core.
23:03:51 <ehird> And I know, goddamn!
23:03:56 <ehird> Stop fucking saying that!
23:03:58 <ehird> I never disputed it...
23:03:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yep, but it will only use one
23:04:10 <fizzie> There's message/http (RFC2616), message/disposition-notification (RFC3798) and so on. http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/ is the definitive source.
23:04:18 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: Well, it's not actually *my* xeon.
23:04:22 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, upload it somewhere?
23:05:41 <ehird> hey bsmntbombdood, upload it
23:06:13 <fizzie> The -O2 is being slow... I'm not sure I'll bother running that for very much longer, given that there are other users for the system. Though using just one core out of eight is maybe not making them so unhappy.
23:06:24 <ehird> does clang multithread
23:06:37 <fizzie> A progress bar would be nice, though. It's taken at least four minutes now.
23:06:44 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: How long did your compilation take, anyway?
23:06:46 <AnMaster> ehird, not afaik, You can't really multi thread on a single file well.
23:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster: sure you can
23:07:01 <ehird> procedures, for instance
23:07:31 <AnMaster> ehird, good compilers nowdays consider the whole file at once, to be able to do interprocedural optimisation
23:07:46 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but once they get down to compiling each procedure...
23:07:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and some even considers the whole program at once. Like icc's -ipo mode
23:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the code generation phase you mean?
23:08:11 <AnMaster> normally that is a tiny part of it
23:08:13 <fizzie> I'll have to just state "-O2 takes longer than 5 minutes" and be done with it; it's not really my box, can't abuse it like that.
23:08:19 <ehird> AnMaster: orly? -O0 can be slow.
23:08:32 <Deewiant> With LDC, -O0 is slower than -O1
23:08:34 <AnMaster> ehird, for C or C++? Parsing both takes a lot of the time
23:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: C is easy to parse...
23:08:48 <Deewiant> ehird: Less code generated speeds up the LLVM backend
23:08:50 <ehird> fizzie: i'd hate having access, but not reign, to/on a powerful server
23:10:33 <fizzie> Which gcc, btw? "4.3.3-5ubuntu4" at that server.
23:11:10 <ehird> fizzie: that thing's running ubuntu?
23:11:19 <ehird> that's sort of worrying
23:11:38 <ehird> i mean, it's an excellent desktop OS, but...
23:11:46 <fizzie> ehird: I guess they want to just learn one thing well; all the Linux workstations run Ubuntu too.
23:12:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: er, lm-sensors thing?
23:12:42 <Sgeo> It's a miracle! ehird's in Sine!
23:12:50 <ehird> Get over yourself :P
23:13:02 <ehird> Sgeo: kyevan dragged me in yesterday
23:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing.
23:14:27 <ehird> (you asked that yesterday...)
23:14:58 <fizzie> The motherboard hardware-monitoring chipsets are all over the place, but I think "modprobe coretemp" + sensors should work rather more reliably. (Well, assuming they've updated the coretemp driver for i7 models, and it still supports the same things. I have no idea whether that's true.)
23:14:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: -march=i7
23:15:06 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, -fwhole-program -combine -O3 -march=athlon64-msse3 -fgcse-sm -fgcse-las -fgcse-after-reload -fsee -fipa-pta -fipa-cp -ftree-loop-linear -ftree-loop-im -ftree-loop-ivcanon -fivopts
23:15:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: speed
23:15:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that is suboptimal for me though
23:15:27 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: Well, the system couldn't have been *much* faster than yours, since it hadn't finished in 5 minutes.
23:15:32 <ehird> AnMaster: he already compiled it for you.
23:15:34 <bsmntbombdood> FATAL: Error inserting coretemp (/lib/modules/2.6.26-2-amd64/kernel/drivers/hwmon/coretemp.ko): No such device
23:15:47 <fizzie> 2.6.26 is not very new.
23:16:01 <ehird> core != i7? What a meaningless equation.
23:16:13 <fizzie> i7 is of the Core family, though.
23:16:20 <AnMaster> then that core module is too old
23:16:24 <fizzie> Given that even Atom does the coretemp stuff, I'd guess i7 does too.
23:16:35 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: What's your /proc/cpuinfo "model" number?
23:16:39 <ehird> AnMaster: he's running debian testing
23:17:29 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: Yes; that works with a newer coretemp module. So you'll get it sooner or later.
23:17:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: arch might have the newer module :-P
23:18:02 * AnMaster has it on that arch computer already
23:18:17 <ehird> http://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/gcc/ # 4.4!
23:18:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gentoo is not bleeding edge with its compilers.
23:18:27 <ehird> Clearly, it's 0.1 better.
23:18:33 <ehird> AnMaster: I was looking for it as you typed.
23:18:57 * pikhq just switched to 4.3 a few months ago
23:19:15 <fizzie> For the record; compiled LostKng with -O2 also at home with this Athlon X2. It took 9 minutes, 18 seconds. Used up very little memory for most of the time, then jumped to some 2.3 gigabytes in the end.
23:19:18 <AnMaster> and I didn't recompile everything!
23:19:57 <pikhq> Actually, recompiling for a new version of the compiler is highly recommended; the ABI sometimes changes.
23:20:06 <ehird> % gcc -march=deathstation9000
23:20:07 <ehird> i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1: no input files
23:20:10 <Sgeo> http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/college-students-use-glass-bottles-to-play-tetris-theme
23:20:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, interesting. And I only have 1.5 GB
23:20:20 <ehird> pikhq: er, what about binary blobs?
23:20:29 <ehird> AnMaster: lern2share
23:20:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah I read the GCC changelog to figure out when it does
23:20:50 <ehird> (ehird: lern2words)
23:21:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I have swap too. another 1.5 GB. But using it == slow
23:21:14 <ehird> he said it just jumped at the en
23:21:21 <ehird> so it'd only be a few seconds, I assume
23:21:26 <pikhq> ehird: Weird shit happens.
23:21:41 <ehird> i rely on binary blobby sort of things
23:21:42 <AnMaster> ehird, minutes. I have 512 MB ram *free* + 244 MB swap in use
23:21:55 <ehird> fizzie: how long did it use >2
23:21:58 <AnMaster> total used free shared buffers cached
23:22:18 <fizzie> ehird: I wasn't actually looking so closely. Not over a minute.
23:22:48 <ehird> AnMaster: -/+ buffers/cache sez 748 free
23:22:51 <ehird> swap says 276 free
23:23:01 <ehird> AnMaster: you DO know that the kernel reserves a ton of memory for itself, right?
23:23:09 <ehird> unaligned irc client
23:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, where does it end up with 1 GB
23:23:31 <ehird> AnMaster: "fail2"? lern2meme
23:24:41 <AnMaster> in your i = Use i as referring to math
23:25:05 <fizzie> Beauty is in the eye(5) 5x5 identity matrix of the beholder.
23:25:08 <ehird> actually you just came off as a drug-addled incoherent
23:25:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: srsly?
23:25:22 <ehird> your machine is smoking. gimme an ssh connection
23:25:35 <AnMaster> no no. Give me an ssh connection!
23:26:03 <ehird> wait, same binary size?
23:26:09 <ehird> that must mean that -O3 did not much
23:26:12 <ehird> or a very big coincidence
23:26:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization
23:26:35 <ehird> AnMaster: superoptimization is totally impractical
23:26:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it is still interesting.
23:27:51 <bsmntbombdood> didn't someone predict this compilation would take hours?
23:28:11 <ehird> but i7s are too fast ;-)
23:28:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do "-O3 -march=i7 -msse4.1"
23:28:46 <AnMaster> actually I got that OOM message after just a few minutes on my own Sempron
23:28:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it'll be ridiculously fast
23:28:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or try icc
23:28:59 <AnMaster> GCC is RAM bount, not memory bound
23:29:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do "-O3 -march=i7 -msse4"
23:29:17 <ehird> it should take about the same time
23:29:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I said that ages ago
23:29:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you should do it anyway, it'll just take 8 minutes
23:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to be forgetting it though
23:29:38 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, do it on GCC 4.4
23:29:41 <ehird> and it'll be a ridiculously fast computation for ridiculously fast hardware
23:29:49 <AnMaster> with the graphite loop optimiser
23:32:02 <bsmntbombdood> i once tried to compile the output of gperf on a large dictionary
23:32:31 -!- coppro has joined.
23:32:40 <ehird> eaten any feces lately?
23:32:41 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, you mean profiled feedback?
23:33:09 <bsmntbombdood> that was just from handling a large array of strings though
23:33:16 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, oh the perfect hash one
23:33:36 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, gperf works best on small sets. For large ones better use other hash libs.
23:35:00 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it worked well for me on large sets
23:35:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, http://cmph.sourceforge.net/
23:35:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes. testing that it works
23:36:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, next step is to improve the BF-to-C translation
23:36:34 <AnMaster> and, esotope-bfc is a way better compiler
23:36:51 <AnMaster> than in-between (the one that generated that output you compiled)
23:37:35 <AnMaster> I do most the the basic stuff it does though. What I don't yet (since I haven't worked out a good way to do it reliably and that works on nested loops): loop-to-polynom
23:37:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: compile mandelbrot.b with esotope-bfc, hthen
23:38:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: compile mandelbrot.b with esotope-bfc, then "gcc -O3 -march=i7 -msse4"
23:38:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it'll be jaw-droppingly ... fast.
23:38:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: AnMaster can :-P
23:38:28 <ehird> AnMaster: link to esotope-bfc
23:39:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i will supply this code on the condition that you use "gcc -O3 -march=i7 -msse4" :-P
23:39:24 <pikhq> ehird: -march=i7 implies -msse4.
23:39:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "gcc -O3 -march=i7" then.
23:39:41 <GregorR-L> http://google.com/search?q=esotope+bfc you mean :P
23:39:47 <pikhq> Now we're talking.
23:40:16 <GregorR-L> !bf_txtgen http://google.com/search?q=
23:40:26 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
23:40:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, I suspect quoting fail
23:40:43 <GregorR-L> Oh, hah, it's downloading that page :P
23:40:47 <EgoBot> 33 ++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>. [99]
23:41:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://pastie.org/481059.txt?key=nlsidb0ldiwfqybsv76tcg; "time gcc -O3 -march=i7 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot"
23:41:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, so how do you force it as text
23:41:03 <ehird> don't forget the time!
23:41:13 <GregorR-L> !bf_txtgen htp://google.com/search?q=
23:41:17 <EgoBot> 201 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++.----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.>-----. [730]
23:41:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: then "time ./mandelbrot > /dev/null" 5 times
23:41:35 <GregorR-L> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.
23:41:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> don't forget the time!
23:41:44 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't so much different from mine
23:41:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's hard to optimize such a program
23:41:54 <GregorR-L> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.>-----.
23:42:02 <ehird> but esotope seems to have dnoe a good job
23:42:17 <ehird> while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9;
23:42:18 <EgoBot> 142844 +++++[>+++++++++++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<-]>>----------.>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<---------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++++++++++.<<------------------------------------------------------.--.>-----.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.>----.>----------------------------------------------.>--------------------------------------------.<+++++++
23:42:26 <bsmntbombdood> mandelbrot.c:1: error: bad value (i7) for -march= switch
23:42:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> while (p[7] != 0) p -= 9;
23:42:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: upgrade gcc
23:42:43 <ehird> AnMaster: i looked at it and my brain broke for a second
23:42:47 <ehird> for (loopcnt8 = p[43]; loopcnt8 > 0; --loopcnt8) {
23:42:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: srsly, upgrade gcc just for this
23:43:04 <ehird> we need i7/sse SHPEED goodness.
23:43:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I did that in "before", and I have the needed metadata already to do it.
23:43:15 <GregorR-L> !addinterp google bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[.,]
23:43:15 <EgoBot> Interpreter google installed.
23:43:26 <ehird> !google let me google that for you
23:43:27 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=let me google that for you
23:43:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but I haven't got around to writing that pass yet.
23:43:57 <bsmntbombdood> with -march=native, running it takes about 1.2 seconds
23:43:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I have all the analysing data needed to do it all. Just need to write the optimiser pass that uses it :(
23:44:18 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=
23:46:26 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=esotope+bfc
23:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what does estope generate for the program in !google
23:46:45 <ehird> AnMaster: i'll try
23:46:51 <ehird> 23:43 bsmntbombdood: with -march=native, running it takes about 1.2 seconds
23:46:55 <AnMaster> I will be able to do that once I get the loop unrolling done
23:46:56 <ehird> the top interp takes ~13 secs
23:47:15 <ehird> PUTS("http://google.com/search?q=");
23:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, output from my compiler running it takes about 2 seconds here. And my CPU is slow
23:47:49 <ehird> AnMaster: not perfect, though
23:47:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I get this currently: http://pastebin.com/m1dc332dd
23:47:54 <ehird> it doesn't need to assign to the tape
23:48:01 <ehird> well, i guess it has to use a variable
23:48:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I already do the const, out -> out_const. Just not the loop flatterning
23:48:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll try life.b now
23:48:44 <ehird> http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/brainfuck/life.bf
23:49:01 <ehird> s/bf/b/ since the person evidently doesn't know about befunge-98
23:49:14 <ehird> holy nested loops batman
23:49:45 <AnMaster> out of solidarity or something. </retcon>
23:49:45 <ehird> life and mandelbrot don't get much constantizing
23:49:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it is hard to do in them
23:49:59 <ehird> i bet someone's been testing on lostkng's stupid generated code
23:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, still
23:50:10 <AnMaster> I have studied mandelbrot quite a lot
23:50:30 <ehird> how do I get a list of march's
23:51:04 <ehird> didn't know what to grep for
23:51:26 <AnMaster> ehird, grep for k8, that lands you in the right section (x86 specific)
23:51:27 <ehird> AnMaster: that is much shorter. over 300 lines for esotope
23:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, pastebin your life for esotope!
23:51:56 <ehird> i missed context there for a second
23:52:21 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/1425899
23:52:29 <ehird> 23:51 AnMaster: ehird, pastebin your life for esotope!
23:52:34 <ehird> i didnt know what life meant there
23:52:39 <AnMaster> examples/life.b.c lines 425-470/470 (END)
23:53:03 <ehird> due to font/browser-editor size differences
23:53:06 <ehird> and lack of indentation I guess
23:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, indention isn't needed in auto generated code
23:53:29 <AnMaster> if I need that while reading it I do astyle on it
23:53:36 <ehird> it jsut threw me off
23:53:48 <ehird> just prescott and p4 and shit
23:53:58 <ehird> 4.0.1; it's ancient but not THAT ancient
23:54:12 <ehird> it's not older than core2.
23:54:20 <ehird> gcc-4.2 has core2, huh.
23:54:28 <ehird> % time gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot
23:54:38 <ehird> gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 mandelbrot.b.c -o mandelbrot 1.56s user 0.25s system 18% cpu 9.958 total
23:55:00 <ehird> 6.5 seconds first time
23:55:07 <ehird> bff.c does it in 13
23:55:12 <ehird> and it's an interpreter!
23:55:39 <AnMaster> ~5 seconds for -O3 here on my Sempron
23:55:55 <AnMaster> for the one generated by my compiler
23:56:03 <ehird> it's just Eddie's in the space time continuum
23:56:07 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yeah, 2 GHz Sempron 3300+
23:56:25 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, http://pastebin.ca/1425908
23:56:35 <ehird> % time gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 life.b.c -o life gcc-4.2 -O3 -march=core2 life.b.c -o life 0.21s user 0.04s system 21% cpu 1.145 total
23:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: gimme some life.b input
23:56:47 <ehird> i forget the syntax
23:56:52 <ehird> you didn't know of it
23:57:20 <AnMaster> $ time gcc -std=gnu99 -O3 -Wall -Wextra -o life examples/life.b.c
23:57:34 <AnMaster> and I don't know how you do it
23:57:37 <ehird> "while Sweden turned down the euro in a 2003 referendum, and has circumvented the obligation to adopt the euro by not meeting the monetary and budgetary requirements."
23:57:42 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: your code takes 1.9 seconds, compared to 1.2 for the other compiler
23:57:47 <ehird> "Hah, take that, EU! We're gonna be poor so you can't force your currency on us."
23:57:58 <ehird> AnMaster: row/col turns it on
23:58:05 <ehird> AnMaster: then an empty line steps a simulation
23:58:22 <ehird> AnMaster: the UK just said "we're fat lazy euro-hating bastards and we'll do what the fuck we want k."
23:59:06 <ehird> AnMaster: to get a glider:
23:59:08 <EgoBot> Interpreter google deleted.
23:59:33 <GregorR-L> !addinterp google bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,]
23:59:33 <EgoBot> Interpreter google installed.
23:59:37 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=hello+world
00:00:12 <GregorR-L> That was way too much work for something serving almost no purpose :P
00:00:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:01:02 <ehird> AnMaster: ab;bc;cc;cb;ca
00:01:15 <ehird> note that the field is bounded
00:02:08 <AnMaster> ehird, rewrite it to make it use an infinite field
00:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, this is a lot easier in befunge btw. :D
00:03:32 -!- nooga has joined.
00:03:39 <ehird> befunge is for toruses
00:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um. No it isn't. It is for Lahey-space
00:04:04 <nooga> ehird: i'm trying to install grub under leopard, i need to create bootable cd
00:04:05 <ehird> I knew you would say that.
00:04:10 <ehird> AnMaster: "X is for squares"
00:04:18 <ehird> square meaning uncool/stupid/fag/purple-monkey.
00:04:29 <ehird> nooga: you can't use grub directly.
00:04:39 <ehird> nooga: also, grub can't boot os x
00:04:43 <ehird> nooga: only BIOS-based OSs
00:04:54 <ehird> nooga: OS X uses EFI, not BIOS, so shit's different.
00:05:11 <nooga> ehird: no no, i need grub to install it ON iso image to boot my kernel
00:05:13 <GregorR-L> OS X depends on having EFI though.
00:05:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: tell that to osx86
00:05:58 <ehird> efi has bios emulation
00:06:11 <ehird> so you can boot to grub from efi
00:06:18 <AnMaster> ehird, then what is bootcamp for
00:06:32 <ehird> AnMaster: bootcamp IS the bios emulation
00:06:40 <nooga> i need grub to make a bootable cd image WITH MY KERNEL
00:06:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Boot Camp the application is just a partitioner and a Windows-mac-hardware-driver-dispenser.
00:06:55 <ehird> AnMaster: It requires EFI update #blah, which adds the actual BIOS emulation.
00:07:25 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not #blah.
00:07:26 <nooga> can osx mount iso files?
00:07:35 * Sgeo falls asleep on the keyboa
00:07:37 <fizzie> I get a 936KB LostKng when I compile with gcc-4.3 -Os.
00:07:39 <ehird> nooga: to burn an ISO, use disk utility
00:07:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Just EFI update some-build-number.
00:07:54 <fizzie> And I get a "gcc-4.4: Internal error: Killed (program cc1)" when I try with gcc-4.4 -Os.
00:07:57 <ehird> nooga: drag the iso into the side pane, choose burn
00:08:15 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I suspect my compiler generates smaller output than esotope-bfc. Due to less un-needed spacing
00:08:30 <ehird> AnMaster: esotope uses real tabs
00:08:49 <AnMaster> I tend to write p[19]=0; in hand written code
00:09:22 <ehird> how the fuck is spacing ugly
00:09:30 <ehird> nobody gives a shit
00:10:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i need a poo
00:10:42 <nooga> i need damn mkisofs here
00:10:51 <nooga> where's my mkisofs
00:11:51 <fizzie> What's "yw" mean? "You wanker"?
00:12:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ask fizzie
00:12:44 <ehird> he has a nice thing.
00:12:51 <ehird> i don't mean it like that.
00:12:57 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: Not on the fast box, no.
00:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: stop being me
00:13:20 <ehird> i'm the one who goes :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddd although I stole it from oklopol
00:13:22 <nooga> ehird: so how can i create iso image using this thingy?
00:13:24 <ehird> where's oklopol been lately
00:13:27 <ehird> nooga: hdiutil create
00:13:38 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I was trying to go ":DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD"
00:13:43 <ehird> nooga: hdiutil create -help
00:13:51 <ehird> AnMaster: well w/e
00:13:54 <fizzie> The monitor I have here is a LG L246WH, but it's not *that* dissimilar to other 24" 1920x1200 screens. It's reasonably nice, though.
00:14:02 <nooga> but which fs, partitionType, etc
00:14:16 <AnMaster> ehird, although. That is an interesting idea.
00:14:30 <ehird> nooga: hdiutil create -ISOCD
00:14:32 <fizzie> Not so good if you want to connect two computers to it, though, since it only does HDMI+VGA (incl. a DVI-HDMI cable by default) while many others do the HDMI+DVI+VGA triplet.
00:14:53 <ehird> nooga: open disk utility
00:15:01 <ehird> nooga: To create an ISO image in OS X, use Disk Utility to burn a new image choosing “CD/DVD Master” as the Image Format. That creates an image with the cdr extension. Just rename the cdr file extension to iso and there you have it!
00:15:15 <ehird> nooga: although hmm
00:15:33 <ehird> AnMaster: not on os x
00:15:50 <ehird> use hdiutil, i hear it's nice
00:15:56 <ehird> it can make floppies easily, at least
00:16:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:16:13 <ehird> floppy images, that is.
00:16:15 <ehird> AnMaster: i made an os.
00:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I can make a floppy image too easily.
00:16:26 <ehird> i had a make target that put a bootable floppy into the place where my VM wanted it
00:16:32 <ehird> but hdiutil does it nicely
00:16:33 <fizzie> 24" is the most common size if you want 1920 pixels horizontally. Though nowadays there's a large-ish amount of 1920x1080 23" screens. That's probably not any less wide, though. And there are some 21.5" 1920x1080 screens too, if you want physically-smaller.
00:16:35 <ehird> just one or two commands
00:16:54 <ehird> fizzie: how much wider are 24"s than 20"s?
00:17:03 <AnMaster> ehird, same here. mkfs.fat /dev/fd0
00:17:04 <ehird> nooga: "man hdiutil"
00:17:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it did way more than that
00:17:13 <ehird> also, it made a floppy IMAGE
00:17:31 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. dd if=/dev/zero of=/image bs=whatever
00:17:46 <ehird> this put files on the image directly
00:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, but why would I want it
00:17:59 <ehird> AnMaster: you wouldn't if you weren't making an OS, but I was.
00:17:59 <fizzie> Well, my 24" monitor is physically 56 cm wide, while the 20" is just 44 cm, so quite a bit wider.
00:18:11 <nooga> i need to make bootable cd with grub
00:18:12 <ehird> too big for my neck
00:18:18 <ehird> nooga: man hdiutil
00:18:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I would make a wrapper for it
00:18:23 <nooga> and it seems to be impossible here
00:18:26 <ehird> nooga: man hdiutil
00:18:27 <ehird> nooga: man hdiutil
00:18:27 <ehird> nooga: man hdiutil
00:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: what fun; it took me 4 commands in the make target.
00:18:49 <ehird> nooga: that's nice.
00:19:04 <ehird> AnMaster: so i saved work by using hdiutil, and therefore hdiutil is awesome, malcontent.
00:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I could distribute that script
00:19:26 <AnMaster> and then everyone could do the same
00:19:28 <fizzie> ehird: I might consider a 21.5" 1920x1080 screen if I were picking a monitor now. After all, it's (almost) the same amount of pixels, just something like 94dpi -> 102dpi.
00:19:33 <ehird> what the fuck kind of problem have you got with me liking hdiutil, AnMaster?
00:19:43 <ehird> can't bring yourself to like anything apple?
00:19:46 <ehird> AnMaster: then why are you bothering me about it
00:19:52 <ehird> fizzie: yeah, but, so small.
00:19:53 <nooga> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Making-a-GRUB-bootable-CD_002dROM << recreate this under leopard
00:20:02 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you create an ISO image with RR extensions with it
00:20:09 <ehird> fizzie: and I want the standard 96dpi tbh
00:20:11 <nooga> should be easy but i don't know the tools
00:20:20 <ehird> nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL nooga: MAN HDIUTIL
00:20:29 <ehird> nooga: then stop whining
00:20:47 <ehird> "Waah how do I make a cd" "Like this!" "NO HOW DO I MAKE A CD WAAAAAAAH"
00:21:00 <AnMaster> nooga, then I agree with ehird
00:21:10 <nooga> because this whole leopard sucks, tehe are no basic tools
00:21:25 <AnMaster> nooga, actually. Go try using hdiutils
00:21:43 <ehird> AnMaster: i retract my classification of you as malcontent; it's nooga.
00:21:55 <ehird> create size_spec image
00:21:55 <ehird> create a new image of the given size or from the provided
00:21:57 <ehird> data. If image already exists, -ov must be specified or
00:21:59 <ehird> create will fail. If image is attached, it must be detached
00:22:01 <ehird> before it can be overwritten, even if -ov is specified. To
00:22:03 <ehird> make a cross-platform CD or DVD, use makehybrid. See also
00:22:07 <ehird> nooga: /EXAMPLES<enter>
00:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to give it eltorito no-emu mode
00:23:19 <ehird> AnMaster: it has -no-emul-boot
00:23:28 <ehird> and -boot-load-size
00:23:29 <AnMaster> -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table ?
00:23:40 <ehird> it supports most everything mkisofs does, it seems.
00:23:41 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a rip-off then (j/k)
00:23:53 <AnMaster> but what about -boot-info-table
00:23:54 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm sure if it was linux you'd be calling it compatibility :)
00:24:02 <ehird> no -boot-info-table
00:24:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: i'm sure if it was linux you'd be calling it compatibility :) <-- yes
00:24:44 <AnMaster> Specifies that a 56-byte table with information of the CD-ROM layout will be patched in at offset 8 in the boot file. If this option
00:24:44 <AnMaster> is given, the boot file is modified in the source filesystem, so make sure to make a copy if this file cannot be easily regenerated!
00:24:44 <AnMaster> See the EL TORITO BOOT INFO TABLE section for a description of this table.
00:25:23 <AnMaster> "the boot file is modified in the source filesystem, so make sure to make a copy if this file cannot be easily regenerated"
00:25:33 <ehird> my my my my my my my my my mym ym ym ym ymym my ym my my my mymymymym
00:25:54 <fizzie> I assume "sudo port install cdrtools" should bring in the mkisofs, if there is some religious reason for only using that.
00:26:31 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the debian fork?
00:26:43 <ehird> it's the original schilling shitfest
00:26:43 <fizzie> That's where mkisofs is from, after all. There's some "dvdrtools" fork; I don't think they have the Debian fork.
00:26:53 <ehird> of licensing shittiness, arrogance and bugs galore
00:26:58 <fizzie> The Debian one renames it to genisoimage, anyway.
00:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well the "schilling" one actually works with my system
00:27:14 <ehird> Clearly there are only two options.
00:27:27 <AnMaster> ehird, with cdrcrap it fail all burns
00:27:39 <ehird> Debian and Schilling
00:27:40 <AnMaster> or whatever the other one was callled
00:27:46 <ehird> There is no other software to do CD stuff on linux.
00:27:56 <ehird> AnMaster: http://google.com
00:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, There is no third afaik
00:28:10 <fizzie> Debian packages it separately into wodim and genisoimage, I'm not sure if the fork has a name.
00:28:30 <ehird> AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
00:28:33 <ehird> (those are two options)
00:28:34 <fizzie> Anyway, there is a third fork called dvdrtools, but it seems a bit dead.
00:28:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah right. and I tried that before. Didn't work either
00:28:48 <fizzie> cdrdao's not a cdrtools fork, though.
00:28:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, was about 2 years ago though
00:28:57 <pikhq> CD burner do you have, what interface, and are you still on 2.4?
00:29:13 <ehird> AnMaster: libburn, and the other one I linked
00:29:15 <ehird> are you ignoring me?
00:29:18 <ehird> you asked, I proved.
00:29:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, and DVD burned. Not CD burner
00:29:23 <pikhq> Okay, so IDE emulation bugs are right out.
00:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm putting you on hold until I discussed with pikhq
00:29:43 <pikhq> Kernel ATAPI bugs aren't eliminated, though.
00:29:49 <ehird> 00:28 ehird: AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
00:30:10 <pikhq> And ATAPI is the ATA-embedded protocol for talking to it.
00:30:42 <pikhq> Hmm. I guess the best I can say is give it a shot again and hope it works?
00:30:51 <nooga> fuck this apple shit
00:31:06 <pikhq> Honestly, I think I'd need a long session with gdb to find anything out if it didn't work again.
00:31:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, the drive refuses to burn CD-RW at all btw. CD-R works.
00:31:08 <nooga> i'm gonna boot slax in qemu to do this
00:31:17 <ehird> nooga: your fault for not reading the manpage
00:31:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, think it can't burn CD-RW slow enough
00:31:21 <ehird> it tells you almost exactly how to do this shit
00:31:24 <ehird> since the options are almost 1:1
00:31:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use my old computer with a slower drive for that
00:31:33 <nooga> ehird: i've read that
00:31:42 <pikhq> I'm vaguely leaning towards a buggy drive now.
00:31:50 <nooga> but hdiutil doesn't have -b option from osx
00:32:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, "writemaster" is all it says on the front
00:32:25 <AnMaster> well apart from the dvd/cd logos
00:32:47 <pikhq> Ah, the joy of whitebox equipment.
00:32:52 <pikhq> Yeah, I got nothing.
00:33:05 <pikhq> Except for delicious, delicious pizza.
00:33:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Cheap, generic computer hardware is generally called "whitebox.
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00:33:33 <fizzie> "2x HDMI, 1x DVI-D, 1x VGA, 1x component-video, 2x SCART, 1x S-Video, 1 DVB-T tuner"; whoa, that's a lot of connectors in a computer monitor.
00:33:38 <ehird> I am the only person who likes pizza?
00:33:46 <pikhq> fizzie: That's a TV set.
00:33:54 <fizzie> pikhq: No, they call it a monitor. :p
00:34:00 <ehird> 00:32 pikhq: Yeah, I got nothing. 00:33 pikhq: Except for delicious, delicious pizza.
00:34:03 <pikhq> It's got a fucking tuner.
00:34:04 <ehird> That's perfectly meaningful.
00:34:17 <ehird> AnMaster: He has nothing except pizza.
00:34:18 <fizzie> pikhq: It's still not a TV set. It's just a monitor with a DVB-T tuner attached.
00:34:26 <ehird> He's saying that he is eating pizza, I assume
00:34:32 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Ah, the joy of whitebox equipment. <pikhq> Yeah, I got nothing. <pikhq> Except for delicious, delicious pizza.
00:34:38 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with the drive
00:34:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Nothing.
00:34:52 <AnMaster> ATAPI CD-ROM, with removable media
00:34:52 <AnMaster> Model Number: TSSTcorpCD/DVDW SH-W162C
00:34:59 <ehird> Non-sequitur would be if he said "Yeah, I got nothing. Order the battalions to end the rape & pillage of the fishes."
00:35:09 <fizzie> bsmntbombdood: It's something conceptually different.
00:35:09 <ehird> It followed perfectly fine; it was just irrelevant.
00:35:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, fuck.
00:35:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: That tells me even less.
00:35:28 <fizzie> I'm guessing they're calling it a monitor since it's got that DVI input and it's too small to be a viable TV.
00:35:36 <pikhq> Except that my DVD-ROM drive comes from the same company.
00:35:43 <pikhq> fizzie: What size is it?
00:35:48 <ehird> fizzie: too small to be a viable tv? The main tv set in here is a 21" crt.
00:35:53 <ehird> Flatscreen, at least, but... tiny.
00:35:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe one of those that makes the circuits. And then various brands stick stuff on
00:36:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'd bet.
00:36:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, seems to mean "Toshiba Samsung Storage Technology Corporation"
00:36:26 <fizzie> It's 22". "LG M227WD-PZ"; 1920x1080 pixels. And TVs nowadays seem to be absurdly large.
00:36:40 <pikhq> fizzie, that's a TV set.
00:37:00 <ehird> I read a comic where a 52" screen was considered bizarrely large for playing Quake III. It was CRT, I recall, and went at something like less than 1 fps per second.
00:37:05 <ehird> This comic was ancient. (2002 :-P)
00:37:10 <fizzie> pikhq: If the guys who make it say it's a monitor, then it's a monitor.
00:37:24 <pikhq> When your 'monitor' has a tuner, it's a TV set, regardless of what bullshit the manufacturers say.
00:37:31 <ehird> pikhq: It probably differs from a TV set in ONE way:
00:37:42 <fizzie> Incidentally my DVD burninator is a "TSSTcorp CD/DVDW SH-S183A".
00:37:44 <ehird> TV sets are horribly unrealistic by default in their picture and audio settings.
00:37:48 <ehird> Too much contrast, etc.
00:37:57 <ehird> This is because people actually like it more, aparrently.
00:37:58 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, right. I forgot that they look like shit.
00:38:05 <ehird> They generally come configured right.
00:38:23 <pikhq> It's even worse with CRTs.
00:38:27 <ehird> pikhq: does it have a tuner or just a port for a tuner?
00:38:31 <ehird> what fizzie said implies port
00:38:32 <pikhq> Try as I might, I can't get them configured right.
00:38:42 <pikhq> ehird: Fizzie said "DVB-T tuner".
00:38:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, writemaster seems to be "samsung writemaster" btw
00:38:49 <fizzie> It does have a built-in tuner, yes.
00:39:09 <fizzie> And actually I'm guessing what makes it a monitor is that they sell the same thing without the tuner.
00:39:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, haven't asked alpha yet. But it wouldn't know
00:39:23 <ehird> fizzie: err, what makes it a MONITOR?
00:39:26 <ehird> Up is down down is up.
00:39:43 <pikhq> ehird: The HDMI, VGA, and DVI inputs.
00:39:50 <ehird> 00:39 fizzie: And actually I'm guessing what makes it a monitor is that they sell the same thing without the tuner.
00:40:12 <fizzie> Well, the model without the tuner is obviously a monitor; so since the tuner-version is so identical, it must be a monitor too.
00:40:38 <AnMaster> unusual that ehird didn't get it
00:40:41 <pikhq> Except that the tuner makes it a TV set.
00:40:48 <ehird> AnMaster: but it MAKES NO SENSE!!!111
00:41:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes perfect no sense.
00:42:23 <fizzie> (I'll do some sleeping now, 0230 localtime.)
00:42:54 <AnMaster> ehird, about http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/ "Secondly, the DVD burners available on the market can burn even CD-R[W] media and cdrecord is the tool for this job"
00:43:13 <ehird> AnMaster: so libburn.
00:43:40 <ehird> 00:28 ehird: AnMaster: libburn, http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
00:43:40 <ehird> 00:28 ehird: (those are two options)
00:43:47 <ehird> Reading comprehension is AwEsOmE
00:44:06 <ehird> http://libburnia-project.org/
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00:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, why should I switch since cdrecord actually works
00:44:50 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck you for making me go to the effort of finding that when your response was predecided
00:44:58 <ehird> "Prove there is a third option!" "OK." "LA LA LA"
00:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you said I shouldn't use the Schilly crap though
00:45:21 <ehird> i said that beforehand
00:45:25 <ehird> then you asked me to prove there is a third option
00:45:36 <AnMaster> ehird, but why should I use that third option
00:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and does it integrate into k3b :)
00:46:05 <ehird> do what the fuck you want, goddamn, i never told you to switch, i just said that schilling is a fuckwit, his licensing is stupid and he ignores bugs
00:46:08 <ehird> AnMaster: and it has a cdrecord emulator
00:46:14 <ehird> so yes, if you can change the executable name
00:46:40 <ehird> http://libburnia-project.org/wiki/Cdrskin
00:46:43 <AnMaster> and try this new thing I heard about "mindfullness"
00:47:14 <ehird> it's not my fault you try to wind me up by sending me on wild goose chases
00:47:16 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Sources/C/CPU%20Coolers%20Roundup%20For%20LGA1366%20April%202009/Images/results1.png
00:47:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, the megahalems
00:47:47 <ehird> I'm using them for my new build
00:47:56 <ehird> since that's 82C on the slowest one, 920
00:48:01 <ehird> and I'm going for >3ghz
00:48:10 <ehird> besides, 82C is quite possible dangerous
00:48:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Scythe fans are soundless. :)
00:48:37 <AnMaster> who have the lowest CPU temp her
00:48:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the megahalems non-passive there are 51C, that's odd because they're the biggest, most heavy duty i7 coolers, pretty much
00:48:55 <ehird> it's big enough to be able to run a fan really slow
00:48:57 <ehird> and 51C is just fine
00:49:28 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, even those who go for no-noise generally have a cpu fan at least
00:49:32 <ehird> since it's the hardest component to passively cool
00:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen solid state ones though
00:49:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bullshit!
00:50:06 <ehird> watercooling is louder than the quietest air rigs
00:50:08 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, water cooling is loud
00:50:22 <ehird> heck, you need a fan with watercooling too
00:50:43 <ehird> watercooling is quieter than air cooling for a really high end multi-graphics card rig
00:50:46 <AnMaster> some kind of solid state DC cooling
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00:51:24 <ehird> fans on my planned new rig: nexus value 430W power supply (most silent power supply on silentpcreview; inaudible at almost all levels), scythe fan of some sort for CPU cooler, and two nexus real silent 120mm case fans (probably @7V)
00:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it worked by two blocks. One geting cold, the other hot
00:51:48 <ehird> you can buy preassembled solid state computers
00:51:49 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=fanless_mcubed_pc.html?id=3FVHowPb
00:51:58 <ehird> up to 3.33ghz core 2 duo
00:52:01 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yeah pikhq answered
00:52:05 <ehird> well, it has a dvdrw
00:52:08 <ehird> but you can rip that out
00:52:11 <bsmntbombdood> and you'll burn up your peliter junction if you don't put a fan on it
00:52:49 <ehird> anyway, convective cooling is really silent - unlike watercooling - and can cool a lot of stuff
00:52:57 <ehird> not very common, but, see Zalman's Totally No Noise series
00:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: a shitload of heatpipes
00:53:52 <ehird> AnMaster: and making the case into a giant heatsink
00:53:55 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=tnn_300_core2_media.html
00:54:11 <ehird> that's the micro-atx version
00:54:51 <ehird> can do quad-core 2
00:55:01 <ehird> so it can handle most.
01:03:42 <nooga> grub is compiling under slax under Q under os x
01:03:56 <nooga> and it takes years
01:05:50 <ehird> "The Finnish government has announced plans for universal broadband access across Finland assuring that no person will be further than a mile and a half away from a broadband Internet connection of at least 100 megabits per second (Mbps). "
01:06:34 <ehird> I so want to move to .fi now :)
01:06:52 <nooga> in soviet poland broadband internet surfs you
01:06:58 <ehird> *sniff* But only Nebula seem to do IPv6 in .fi
01:07:08 <ehird> 100mbps fiber or IPv6 I CAN'T DECIDE
01:07:26 <nooga> i don't see anything cool in IPv6
01:07:37 <ehird> nooga: ipv6 is the future man
01:07:39 <bsmntbombdood> it looks like linux is actually lowering my cpu frequency when it can
01:07:40 <ehird> and also it's just pretty
01:07:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's a good thing
01:07:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, it may be the cpu
01:08:03 <ehird> due to that cores-feed-other-more-active-cores thing
01:10:02 <ehird> nebula's max <149euro/mo seped thing is 24M/3M
01:10:07 <ehird> which is disappointingly slow
01:11:41 <ehird> nooga: 85 euros a month for 24MB down / 3MB up.
01:11:56 <ehird> You get IPv6, custom reverse-DNS and tech-savvy support for that, sez fizzie.
01:12:00 <ehird> But 'tis excessively-priced.
01:13:11 <nooga> i've got 6M/1M for 22eur ;p
01:13:13 <AnMaster> http://theory.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf
01:13:33 <ehird> AnMaster: futamura's projections are cooler
01:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html
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01:16:38 <ehird> for compilers/interpreters
01:16:48 <ehird> write an interpreter, get an (in theory) good computer
01:17:02 <ehird> nooga: wait, that's "Annex M"
01:17:07 <ehird> their regular 24m/1m is 59euro/mo
01:17:21 <ehird> that's only 1m upload ofc
01:17:30 <ehird> I want 100M both ways + ipv6 + custom reverse dns.
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01:21:51 <AnMaster> I read "futamura" as "futurama" all the way along.
01:21:54 <ehird> Fuck it, I'm starting my own (Finnish) ISP.
01:21:58 <ehird> With blackjack. And hoookers!
01:22:17 <ehird> Hey, that fits in with "futurama".
01:22:20 <ehird> It's like synchronicity.
01:22:37 <ehird> It's a futurama reference
01:22:41 <ehird> also, look up synchronicity
01:23:57 <AnMaster> ehird, how pratical are these protections
01:24:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Projections.
01:24:17 <ehird> Some tools exist, they aren't perfect.
01:24:18 <AnMaster> ehird, any open source implementations?
01:24:23 <ehird> It's theory, mostly. Lots and lots of papers.
01:26:47 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, go live in a DC
01:27:29 <pikhq> A district of Columbia?
01:27:58 <pikhq> Speaking of: why the crap didn't the US get called Columbia?
01:28:01 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, replace all the fans with passive cooling
01:28:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, Indiana would have been better. They were first :P
01:28:24 * pikhq thinks he will start calling the US of A "Columbia".
01:29:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power
01:30:46 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, stop repeating yourself
01:30:53 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, I'm talking about Greenland dude
01:31:36 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, anyway, just put a huge radiator on the house
01:34:02 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, which would be around 20-27 C?
01:34:48 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, and then you are way too near the equator
01:35:32 <AnMaster> it was 14 C outside today iirc when it was hottest. Here that is.
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01:50:23 <nooga> i can't make this fucking iso
01:53:55 <nooga> could you perhaps create a clean, bootable cd with grub installed on it
01:57:58 <pikhq> Get a Gentoo install disc.
01:59:00 <pikhq> The Gentoo install disc is a lightweight LiveCD.
01:59:37 <nooga> and then remove gentoo from the image, edit menu.lst and put my kernel on the image?
01:59:52 <pikhq> ... Why stick your own kernel in there?
02:00:13 <pikhq> ... Oh, you expect an installer.
02:00:20 <pikhq> The Gentoo installer is as follows:
02:00:47 <pikhq> The Gentoo install disc is *just* a lightweight LiveCD. ;)
02:01:15 <nooga> it's late and i don't get it
02:01:30 <pikhq> It gives you a shell prompt.
02:01:34 <pikhq> It has Grub on it.
02:02:02 <pikhq> (as it just so happens, it also contains GNU Tar, GNU Coreutils, and Elinks)
02:02:14 <nooga> the situation is as follows: i have my own kernel compiled into one bin file: kernel. I need to put *kernel* on a bootable cd to boot it
02:02:39 <nooga> i can create a floppy
02:02:47 <nooga> but somehow not a cd
02:03:00 <pikhq> Why do you need a CD?
02:03:14 <nooga> to boot my "os" on a real machine
02:03:54 <nooga> and even though i'm in Poland, computers here don't tend to have floppy drives any more
02:05:18 <Asztal> can you put it on a USB drive?
02:05:38 <bsmntbombdood> "If I ever hear the words "that's final" come out of your mouth ever again, they truly will be."
02:05:40 <Asztal> you should be able to boot from that
02:05:44 <pikhq> GRUB 0.x supports USB drives when installed on them.
02:05:57 <pikhq> GRUB 2 has a USB stack, instead.
02:06:31 <nooga> dunno, just tell me how to prepare that fucking usb stick
02:07:01 <pikhq> Same way you'd do any GRUB install, IIRC.
02:54:05 <nooga> i've got bootable cd with a bootloader that boots grub from my already bootable floppy image that is written on the cd
02:55:14 <nooga> too tired to fight with mkisofs
02:57:06 <nooga> I NEED TO PUT MY KERNEL ON A CD THAT WILL BOOT WHEN INSERTED TO A PC
02:58:42 <nooga> because i need to deliver it to my teacher
02:59:25 <nooga> ow, my OSX is broken, need to reboot
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03:38:24 <Corun> Heya y'all. I'm looking for Fax/Ed, anyone seen him?
03:40:38 <pikhq> i have never seen him.
03:41:26 <pikhq> And I forgot how to capitalise on the capital letter market for a second there.
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06:57:34 <GregorR-L> IF YOU DON'T RESPOND IN THREE MINUTES I'M NEVER COMING BACK
06:59:35 <bsmntbombdood> now, 11 minutes for a response, that's more like a good irc channel
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07:26:37 <Gracenotes> ah, Chopin's first piano concerto, 3rd movement.... mmmmmm...
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07:57:40 <Gracenotes> hm. the Harry Potter fandom has it pretty good -- at least they still have the author of the work to bully into giving hints about what's canon
07:58:23 <Gracenotes> although that's mostly all of what I think is going for them. </rambling>
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08:03:08 <Gracenotes> oh. What were the romantic relationships featured?
08:05:48 <bsmntbombdood> i was impressed at the two guys banging each other
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09:29:08 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> very enjoyable to listen to <- agreed
09:30:32 <Gracenotes> well. my classical collection is somewhat small. But it's as large as it needs to be! :D
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09:52:42 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, How complete is it for J. M. Kraus?
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09:53:07 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, my favourite composer.
09:53:53 * AnMaster is listening to Joseph Matrin Kraus' Symphony in C sharp minor.
09:53:54 <Gracenotes> ah. what era? I'm lots more well versed in music theory than the history
09:54:07 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, contemporary with Mozart.
09:54:50 <Gracenotes> I see. How do they compare, do you think?
09:55:05 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, Mozart is great, but Kraus is better :)
09:55:23 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, Kraus is from Germany, however he worked in Sweden for most of his life.
09:56:49 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I have the 4 CDs with the complete collection of the symphonies that Kraus wrote. There is some other music of him that I'm missing though. (One CD with piano music, and some other ones)
09:58:06 <AnMaster> (also, 8.553734, in case you prefer that type)
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10:00:28 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=18 <-- One of the movements from that one, and a reworked version in C minor (instead of C sharp minor).
10:00:49 <AnMaster> But I have a better recording (Swedish Chamber Orchestra)
10:01:16 <Gracenotes> ooh. I've bookmarked it for listening later on... I'd just like to finish reading a chapter before I go to bed
10:01:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, that recording is inferior to the one I have IMO.
10:02:36 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, NAXOS 8.554777 is the id of the one I have.
10:03:42 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, What do you think of Vivaldi?
10:04:25 <Gracenotes> not a composer I can listen to while reading, exactly.
10:04:40 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, wouldn't say Kraus was that either
10:05:01 <Gracenotes> not a subtle texture he uses. But interesting enough
10:05:08 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I love Vivaldis' Summer. Especially the first and the last movement. Especially in this recording from City of London Sinfonia
10:05:13 * Gracenotes has not listened to much of him lately
10:05:50 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> not a subtle texture he uses. But interesting enough <-- who? Kraus or Vivaldi?
10:06:20 <Gracenotes> earphones are off for the rest of tonight...
10:06:49 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, the recording I have here of Kraus is a bit more stressed tempo than the one on youtube. Something which I like.
10:07:07 <AnMaster> (and I love violins, awesome sound)
10:10:45 <AnMaster> -Gracenotes- TIME Mon 18 May 2009 05:10:40 AM EDT
10:11:07 <Gracenotes> although the original target time was 4:00
10:11:16 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, you are nocturnal I see.
10:11:23 <Gracenotes> Harry Potter, 6th book... she does think of quite good plots
10:11:47 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: yes. But I can't be too nocturnal, otherwise I'll miss my 8:00 AM exam Tuesday. eh.
10:11:50 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, that isn't even the last one
10:12:28 <AnMaster> I think I read it in a week or so after it was released.
10:12:46 <Gracenotes> heh. well, the last I read the books were many years ago, 1-4
10:13:00 <Gracenotes> then I've watched all the movies in the last two days, 1-5
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10:13:14 <Gracenotes> no -- I've started off reading the 6th book
10:13:27 <Gracenotes> which means that the first four are in distance memory and I've skipped the 5th one
10:13:39 <Gracenotes> but the movie is a good enough summary, it seems
10:14:07 <Gracenotes> right now I'm at page 679/827 in the 6th book, at least in my ebook
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14:15:33 * AnMaster was going to ask about reliable detection of infinite/finite/unknown loops
14:21:28 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh btw I have more advanced copy/constant propagation than you do (move pointer isn't a blocker in my code, while unbalanced loops still are of course).
14:22:02 <AnMaster> that is, based on the comment in http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/file/1a700645b843/bfc/opt/propagate.py
14:46:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: good! i have to implement new ideas soon...
14:47:12 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, err, how do you do the detection of if a loop will loop forever
14:47:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I'm not good at reading python :/
14:48:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, another question: how do you do the +++[->++>++++<<] think into constants.
14:48:42 <AnMaster> I can constant fold it only if they are copies anre the values are known (I can translate [->+>+<<] into copy, copy , set 0 atm)
14:49:00 <AnMaster> but your generated code has stuff like: p[0] = p[1] * p[2]
14:49:01 <lifthrasiir> it is first transformed into Repeat[] loop, and soon flattened (in cleanup pass) to multiplication. propagate pass eliminates any expressions and turns them to constant.
14:49:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what is a repeat loop?
14:49:31 <AnMaster> constant number of iterations?
14:49:35 <lifthrasiir> what? currently it only generates the code in the form of p[0] = const * p[3].
14:49:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, maybe I misremembered then, saw it in some notes.txt or something?
14:50:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that explains why I couldn't make head or tail out of the code.
14:50:41 <lifthrasiir> i'm not sure notes.txt is invalidated though.
14:51:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, really you need more comments.
14:51:26 <AnMaster> ohcount says in-between have 34.6% comments. Though that is off a bit due to the GPL headers.
14:51:52 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, "# let w be the overflow value, which is 256 for char etc." is the bit about infinite or not?
14:52:39 <lifthrasiir> if the cell is of finite size the loop executes 255 times.
14:53:06 <AnMaster> including when you have ,[+>++<]
14:53:25 <lifthrasiir> yes, since resulting expression is simple enough
14:53:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, http://rafb.net/p/FN63Qk65.html is my crude draft idea for how to represent such loops.
14:53:53 <AnMaster> well, represent each member of it
14:54:44 <lifthrasiir> looks quite specific about param, but that should be enough imo.
14:55:16 <AnMaster> and that is invalid erlang btw. Just ideas. in pseudo-erlang
14:55:43 <AnMaster> and atm I'm implementing loop -> if. Except I found out that my loop_access analyses pass is buggy and stops too early
14:56:05 <lifthrasiir> one thing i have to do right now is adding automated tests. certainly. ;)
14:56:18 <lifthrasiir> since the original source code is quite messy.
14:56:24 <AnMaster> oh and I also seem to throw exception for loops known not to touch the index cell. Fun!
14:57:26 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: any idea about other codegen module rather than C? ;)
14:57:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I have been wondering about that too, something where you can easily test the generated result of LostKing would be a good one.
14:58:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, of course, a given one is outputting bf again.
14:58:29 <AnMaster> at least for lostking it should be able to optimise it
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14:58:42 <AnMaster> in-between currently removes quite a few dead loops in iut
14:58:47 <lifthrasiir> and i'm testing with lostkng, but it took much time and doesn't help isolating the bugs.
14:59:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh sure does. Generate output. Diff against previous.
14:59:07 <AnMaster> see if anything interesting happened
14:59:49 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, but normally I test with mandelbrot + 50 or so test cases (half no longer relevant after I added initial_memory pass).
15:00:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw, your initial memory pass, does it stop on balanced loops, or only on unbalanced ones/seek
15:00:14 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i should add such test cases now.
15:00:25 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you could check out in-between if you wanted.
15:00:54 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk in-between
15:01:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, needs Erlang R13A-0 at least
15:01:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I'm not aiming to beat you.
15:01:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, mine has some "long range" optimisations, but the majority is peephole-style still.
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15:02:15 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: but anyway mine and yours influence each other, and it is good for each other.
15:02:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you change set0, copy into set_from btw?
15:02:43 <lifthrasiir> so... erlang needs to be compiled manually in mac os x?
15:02:50 <AnMaster> and set_from into set if the source is known
15:02:54 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, no clue. I run Linux.
15:03:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and use erlang from my package manager
15:03:18 <AnMaster> (which compiles it for me! Yeah I run Gentoo)
15:03:30 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i have no idea what is copy command. you mean something like p[x] += p[y];?
15:03:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, [->+<] can be turned into "copy from p[0] to p[1], set p[0] to 0"
15:04:39 <lifthrasiir> currently AdjustMemory means p[x] += expr, and SetMemory means p[x] = expr.
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15:04:51 <lifthrasiir> i'm planning to remove AdjustMemory in lieu of SetMemory, though.
15:05:08 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about source propagation. Like "p[1] = 0; p[1] += p[0]; p[2] += p[1];"
15:05:32 <AnMaster> "p[1] = 0; p[1] += p[0]; p[2] += p[1];" -> "p[1] = p[0]; p[2] += p[1];" -> "p[1] = p[0]; p[2] += p[0];"
15:05:51 <AnMaster> that is, tries to find "original" source
15:06:13 <lifthrasiir> removing AdjustMemory will be quite helpful for copy propagation and source propagation.
15:06:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, AdjustMemory is like my add node then, and SetMemory like my set node
15:06:30 <AnMaster> but they take integer constants
15:07:02 <AnMaster> changing to take another node reference would be non-trivial, updating lots of the optimiser passes.
15:07:08 <lifthrasiir> since only SetMemory node does memory operation then, it will make the code simpler and easier to implement such cases.
15:07:24 <AnMaster> (I didn't consider data abstraction a lot, I preferred simple pattern matching )
15:07:36 <lifthrasiir> (at the expense of expression canonicalization, though. but that is very much needed for further optimization.)
15:07:45 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how will you represent a ++ the.
15:07:55 <AnMaster> when you don't know value before
15:08:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I hope that will be simplified somewhere before the output?
15:08:26 <lifthrasiir> the output will be printed out simplified, of course.
15:08:44 <lifthrasiir> but for internal processing, uniform memory operation is easier to process.
15:09:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh and in bytes my code is already shorter than your for non-trivial cases, I generate compact output in the C backend: no indention, as few spaces as possible.
15:09:24 <AnMaster> well a few more than "as few as possible"
15:09:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you seem to have C code generation spread out in the node representation btw?
15:10:13 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: the most recent revision moves code generation code into bfc.codegen.c module.
15:10:32 <AnMaster> 77 return '%r!=%r' % (self.expr, self.value)
15:10:43 <AnMaster> that wouldn't work for an erlang backend
15:10:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: well expression and condition is not yet refactored.
15:11:15 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also why do you do some optimisation already in the file loader?
15:11:40 <AnMaster> is that the only place where you move ">" forward?
15:11:51 <lifthrasiir> traversing all the node is quite expensive.
15:11:55 <AnMaster> or do you do it somewhere else after you converted [-] and such
15:12:14 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: it handles consecutive +, -, < and > currently.
15:13:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how is the node tree implemented? In in-between it is a linked list (cons style), with tuples (using records to simply changing the members, the erlang compiler translates it into a tuple)
15:13:16 <AnMaster> (but I see it more like a struct)
15:13:27 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what about >>[-]<<
15:13:43 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: it merges >> and <<, but not [-].
15:14:00 <lifthrasiir> [-] is handled in simple loop pass right now
15:14:48 <lifthrasiir> (or more exactly, simple loop pass detects constant number of loop count and cleanup routine flattens the loop)
15:14:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes but when does +>[-]>+ turn into +:offset=0 [-]:offset=1 0:offset=2 ptr+=2
15:15:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes but when does +>[-]>+ turn into +:offset=0 [-]:offset=1 +:offset=2 ptr+=2
15:15:33 <AnMaster> hit the wrong key (+ and 0 next to each other on Swedish kb layout)
15:15:54 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, surely you do move the moves forward. later on?
15:15:56 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: maybe in the cleanup? that is why i'm planning to move more optimization into file loader.
15:16:04 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh you don't do that already?
15:16:40 <lifthrasiir> i.e. offset is not an attribute of node; offset is calculated on-the-fly in the each passes.
15:17:37 <lifthrasiir> but after certain passes, the most node is pointer-propagated and looks like above.
15:17:44 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you turn (assuming value before is unknown) "add, out(p[0]), add, out(p[0])" into "add, add out(p[0]-1), out(p[0])"
15:17:55 <AnMaster> then merge the add nodes of course
15:18:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm ok. In my case offset is an attribute.
15:18:40 <AnMaster> (see src/in_between-types.hrl for details of my data structures)
15:19:12 <lifthrasiir> propagation pass could move some nodes, but anyway my passes don't depend on the order of nodes.
15:19:57 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm, how do you track data dependencies in general then?
15:20:09 <lifthrasiir> did you say in-between uses mostly peephole optimizer?
15:20:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well it has some "scan and build knowledge trees, sometimes store this to the parent loop (or other block) node"
15:21:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, but yes, a majority works on two or one operand
15:21:18 <lifthrasiir> it tracks the record of references and updates, and determines if the current node is merged into the some node seen before.
15:21:26 <AnMaster> like the shifter, which sorts by offset when possible
15:21:31 <AnMaster> as well as moves "mov" forward
15:21:42 <lifthrasiir> if the condition holds the current node is replaced with Nop[] (cleanup will get rid of these).
15:22:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that sounds quite like my constant propagator pass.
15:22:37 <AnMaster> well, I don't replace with nop, I just don't add the node to the result tree
15:23:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yeah and each pass rebuilds the node list reversed then calls lists:reverse() before returning the result.
15:23:49 <AnMaster> (which is rather fast, since lists:reverse is a built in function)
15:25:28 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is reversing the linked list optimal? it is efficient than non-tail recursion, but i wonder there is an alternative approach.
15:26:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, speed isn't really an issue atm.
15:26:49 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and doing it as a map over the list or similiar would only allow the function to look at one instruction at a time, while quite a few look at one from input and one from output
15:27:38 <AnMaster> oh and important: If you just merged two instructions in peep hole style (looking at a pair), add the resulting instruction to the *input* list
15:27:54 <AnMaster> this allows you to see if it can also be merged with the one before
15:28:27 <AnMaster> getting that right reduced it from 230 iterations of all passes before the node tree stopped changing to just 6. For lostking
15:28:36 <lifthrasiir> okay, it should be quite common in functional (or mostly-functional) languages. :)
15:28:45 <AnMaster> and about 5 minutes to half a minute
15:29:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, erlang is a mix of functional and declarative.
15:29:35 <lifthrasiir> i had tried to re-implement esotope-bfc in ocaml, but it is quite strange experience in my perspective, though i have enough background about functional languages. ;)
15:30:06 <lifthrasiir> certainly knowing the language is different than using the language (fluently).
15:30:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, don't know about ocaml. But my aim isn't to make the compiler itself fast. "Reasonable" is enough for me
15:30:26 <AnMaster> and erlang does have a compile mode for "to native code".
15:30:32 <AnMaster> not sure if it works on OS X or not
15:30:46 <AnMaster> ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make
15:30:52 <lifthrasiir> well, if i concerned with the speed why had i written esotope-bfc in python? :D
15:31:10 <AnMaster> (about halved time for lostking)
15:31:39 <AnMaster> though atm I mostly work with ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[debug_info]'
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15:33:28 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I'm quite positive that folding a dict to generate a new offset dict when constant propagation hits a mov node (moves pointer) node is far from the fastest way.
15:34:43 <AnMaster> in fact I do much worse than that. I also do the same over a dict of sets (that handles "discard copy propagation result if the source offset is modified")
15:35:01 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: flushing the entire commands kept is far from optimal, right. it should flush only needed command if possible.
15:35:38 <AnMaster> (so (copy 0 -> 1) (set 0 to 2) (copy 1 -> 3) isn't changed into (copy 0 -> 1) (set 0 to 2) (copy 0 -> 3))
15:36:02 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, in what place do you mean?
15:37:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: eh, no. i think i misunderstood the topic.
15:37:34 <lifthrasiir> what i said is about hard blocker in propagation pass.
15:38:04 <AnMaster> ah yes, for me only unbalanced loop and seek are hard blockers
15:38:30 <AnMaster> for mov I just translate the offsets in the data of consts and copies
15:38:50 <AnMaster> using an O(something horrible) algorithm.
15:40:17 <AnMaster> (but it seems to work well enough for lostking, however I will reconsider this if you can provide a program where it is an issue, (issue: [n] takes too long (subjectively) on the authors computer)
15:46:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you can turn any loop which is balanced and which will set index cell to 0 into an if right?
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15:47:48 <AnMaster> right, time for exception/warn feast (various other code bits not knowning about "if" insturction throwing exceptions or just warning)
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16:28:46 <ehird> 00:50 nooga: i can't make this fucking iso
16:28:47 <ehird> 00:50 nooga: mkisofs fails
16:28:49 <ehird> ↑ you're a retard, waah hdiutil isn't good want mkisofs, waah mkisofs doesn't work!
16:29:00 <ehird> 01:00 pikhq: The Gentoo install disc is *just* a lightweight LiveCD. ;) ←gentoo has a gui installer
16:30:18 <ehird> 06:27 bsmntbombdood: ah, Dream Theater - Images and Words
16:30:19 <ehird> 06:27 bsmntbombdood: mmm
16:30:20 <ehird> that album is crap
16:30:25 <pikhq> ehird: No longer maintained.
16:30:28 <ehird> 01:05 bsmntbombdood: "If I ever hear the words "that's final" come out of your mouth ever again, they truly will be."
16:30:44 <pikhq> ehird: Instead, there's a minimal LiveCD and stage 3 autogenerated every week.
16:31:04 <ehird> i guess the gui installer was just too easy and usable for them
16:31:40 <pikhq> Actually, that was a casualty in the decision to stop doing versioned releases.
16:32:21 <ehird> i refuse to believe being too easy wasn't a factor in it :)
16:32:52 <ehird> hmm, i have a bunch of sbcls taking up 22-23% of my cpu each
16:33:11 <ehird> 100% of both cpu cores used :)
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16:33:17 <ehird> probably borken maximas
16:33:27 <ehird> (I was wondering why my fans were going a bit loud for idle...)
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16:33:51 <ehird> if I kill one each one uses more cpu
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16:37:51 <ehird> awesome, my macs' sensors know what the ambient temperature is :>
16:38:00 <ehird> apparently it's 21 celsius here
16:38:10 <ehird> which is quite hot for recent weather
16:38:29 <ehird> CPU A Temperature Diode says 40C
16:38:33 <ehird> CPU core 1 says 27C
16:38:38 <ehird> CPU core 2 says 38C
16:38:54 <ehird> optical drive is at 24C
16:44:55 <pikhq> ehird: So, it's running a bit hotter than room temperature.
16:44:59 <fizzie> "core 0 temp: +32.0°C; core 1 temp: +33.0°C; NBr temp: +36.0°C; CPU temp: +28.0°C"; that's all the sensors I have.
16:45:14 <ehird> pikhq: yeah I got one of the cores up to 58C by running 4 ocaml interpreters doing "let x () = x ();; x();;"
16:45:40 <pikhq> My CPU shoots up to 40C when I run it full-blast.
16:45:46 <pikhq> Then, it's ultracheap.
16:46:15 <ehird> pikhq: wait, is 58C unusually low or high, I'd say low
16:46:21 <ehird> well more like regular
16:46:37 <ehird> the cpu fan started to kick up a liiiittle bit by the end
16:46:41 <fizzie> After a minute of running, core 0 temp +46, core 1 temp +42.
16:46:49 <ehird> fizzie: running wat
16:47:08 <fizzie> Just running in general; bash while true; do :; done. :p
16:47:18 <ehird> I did that but ocaml uses up more juice
16:47:41 <ehird> http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Sources/C/CPU%20Coolers%20Roundup%20For%20LGA1366%20April%202009/Images/results1.png ← i wanna know why the megahalems are so far above the xigmatek nepartak s983, i looked it up and it's practically the same
16:47:42 <fizzie> It seems to be going up still. +49/+46.
16:49:11 <ehird> that titan fenrir does really well
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16:51:12 <ehird> ugh, the default fan looks fugly
16:51:20 <fizzie> I have in the secondary box this really silly-looking cooler thing, http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_43&mID=133
16:51:30 <ehird> i suspect that chart of being woefully biased to how fast the stock fans spin on them
16:52:06 <ehird> fizzie: it doesn't look as silly as http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/prolima-megahalems/12.jpg
16:52:17 <ehird> it's like metal godzilla stepped on your motherboard
16:53:52 <fizzie> Well, it looks silly compared to what I'm more familiar with. The cooling things seem to have went quite crazy nowadays.
16:55:47 <ehird> fizzie: Correction— the processor things seem to have gone quite crazy these days.
16:56:31 <ehird> Oh, silentpcreview reviewed the P183. The case I would get if it wasn't so goddamn ugly.
16:57:22 <ehird> "Like the P182, the P183, at least on the outside, looks more or less the same as its predecessor."
16:58:42 <fizzie> There's no fan on my Atom, I think. Though there's a tiny one on the northbridge or whatever, and those two heatsinks are right next to each other, so I guess it cools the CPU too.
16:58:56 <ehird> You could trivially have a completely fanless Atom.
16:58:59 <fizzie> With 4W TDP (or that's what the ads say) I guess it shouldn't be making all that heat.
16:59:02 <ehird> Would make a nice laptop.
16:59:30 <fizzie> The "nettop" form factor (or whatever it's called) laptops seem to be Atomy.
16:59:41 <fizzie> I have this http://www2.multithread.co.uk/mtcshop/images/linitx.com/products/Jetway_JNC92-230-LF_ATOM_1.6GHz_Mainboard_main.jpg thing.
16:59:56 <ehird> fizzie: What, not even any heatsink on the Intel?
17:00:09 <ehird> If you added a teeny heatisnk on the intel you could ditch the mobo fan, I bet,.
17:00:11 <fizzie> I'm not sure what Intel it is, the picture is so blurry.
17:00:31 <ehird> fizzie: Well, there's obviously no heatsink on it in that pic
17:00:33 <ehird> It could just be the mobo though
17:00:37 <ehird> "Just add heatsink"
17:00:58 <fizzie> Possibly I could fanlessize it, but I don't think I'll bother. It's in the server room anyway, and not very noisy at that.
17:01:22 <ehird> Oh great, the rig SPCR are putting in the P183 is a gamer one.
17:01:27 <ehird> That's so relevant to silence.
17:01:45 <fizzie> (I got that Jetway motherboard primarily because they make a nice little daughterboard add-on card thing which adds three more gigabit-ethernet interfaces in addition to the one already there.)
17:02:02 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, it's not a nettop?
17:02:07 <ehird> You talking about them made me think it was
17:02:36 <fizzie> It's just a mini-ITX motherboard; I have it in a http://www.hec-group.com.tw/pccase/8k/ because it was the cheapest one I ran across.
17:02:53 <ehird> fizzie: Wait, mini-itx? Isn't that thing dead in favour of microatx?
17:03:13 <ehird> Mini-ITX is a 17 x 17 cm (or 6.7 x 6.7 inches) low-power motherboard form factor developed by VIA Technologies. Mini-ITX is slightly smaller than microATX. Mini-ITX boards can often be passively cooled due to their low power consumption architecture, which makes them useful for home theater systems, where fan noise can detract from the cinema experience.
17:03:14 <Deewiant> Dead or not, it's what the Atoms are.
17:03:27 <ehird> fizzie: you could just pop off that jetway mobo fan and be fine, most likely
17:04:48 <Deewiant> ehird: IIRC it runs at 55-60 C out of the box
17:04:52 <Deewiant> So that's not a very good idea
17:04:58 <ehird> Deewiant: The *motherboard*?
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17:05:14 <ehird> That's some, uh, heavy duty northbridge.
17:05:25 <ehird> Do jetway embed an i7 in them or something
17:05:32 <Deewiant> "most of the desktop form-factor atom boards use a desktop version of the northbridge, which uses a lot of power and runs very hot."
17:05:43 <Deewiant> "the NB uses something like 5 times the power of the atom cpu"
17:06:00 <fizzie> I don't know how bad the Jetway version is; most people seem to be using the Intel one.
17:06:23 <ehird> For a while I've had an idea for an ultra budget computer ... buy an integrated router/modem and put Linux on that.
17:06:38 <ehird> Maybe you could have a DVI/serial sort of connector thing for a monitor. :P
17:06:43 <ehird> I wonder if they're powerful enough to run Firefox.
17:07:00 <ehird> It'd be - literally - a nettop.
17:07:57 <fizzie> Jetway's one might be equally bad, too; I haven't really read specs enough. I just picked it because of the easy NICs. It was a bit toss-and-go between that and VIAs new Nano thing, but that was a bit more expensive, and I couldn't really see myself using the cryptographic hardware acceleration all that much.
17:08:32 <ehird> What sort of powersupply do you use for an Atom?
17:09:38 <fizzie> The case already had a very overpowered 120W power supply; I'm hoping it doesn't have a *horribly* bad efficiency. Some sort of picoPSUish solution would've been the alternative.
17:13:37 <ehird> fizzie: Harumph, just about all mini-ITX cases seem to do that.
17:13:45 <ehird> I want an excuse to picopsu
17:17:31 <fizzie> I think there was at least one linitx.com "bundle" type of deal with a external 12V AC/DC brick, some sort of box, and a picoPSU in it.
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17:34:37 <ehird> fizzie: You forgot the /me.
17:34:55 <ehird> Also, the anti-shift in front of I, I suppose.
17:35:04 <ehird> Also, a space after the /me.
17:35:19 <ehird> No no no, like this:
17:35:21 <fizzie> I didn't want to waste a valuable ^A there.
17:35:24 <ehird> It should look like that.
17:35:33 <ehird> What do you mean your IRC client interprets /me as something?
17:35:50 <fizzie> Oh, now I typoed back.
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18:15:05 <ehird> "And even more I don't think that it's healthy to leave whole OS in RAM or disk."
18:18:04 * oerjan found another bug loophole in his /// token scheme :(
18:18:27 <ehird> fizzie: Hay, you know stuffs about linux suspensiony don'tcha?
18:18:37 <oerjan> i have to disallow tokens that can be confused with //\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\ :D
18:18:54 <oerjan> er, //\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\
18:19:52 <oerjan> otherwise it gets hard to substitute actual substitution code into places
18:21:29 <ais523> is this what yo dawg has dropped to, being mentioned whenever anyone uses the same word twice in a sentence?
18:21:52 <oerjan> ais523: perhaps, but i _did_ put a substitution in a substitution
18:21:52 <ehird> ais523: dropped to?
18:21:57 <ehird> it's always been that!
18:22:14 <ais523> I thought you had to expand the entire phrase
18:22:14 <ehird> ais523: also, yo dawg isn't even about recursion
18:22:21 <oerjan> in fact i thought it was harmless, until i started actually using the token that this was currently confused with.
18:22:25 <ais523> but the meme is, even though the original isn't
18:22:25 <ehird> "you dawg, I herd u liek X so I put an X in your car so you can X while you drive"
18:22:31 <ehird> this is a spinoff of the meme
18:22:35 <ehird> where car-related things are replaced by X
18:22:42 <ehird> it seems to have eclipsed the old one, though
18:23:02 <pikhq> I heard you like UNIX so I put a UNIX in your UNIX so you can UNIX while you UNIX.
18:23:03 <ais523> "yo dawg, I heard you like /// so I put a substitution in your substitution so you can unescape while you loop"
18:23:16 <ehird> pikhq: wow, that's the most unfunny one yet
18:23:39 <ehird> http://data.tumblr.com/PRn7VIafuhc60f6moPwXp38Co1_500.jpg
18:24:57 <ehird> http://a.ads2.msn.com/CIS/18/000/000/000/001/019.jpg ← What the heck.
18:26:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I know do loop -> if conversion. Took longer than expected due to this pass started using data not fully used before. Uncovered some bugs.
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18:28:39 <AnMaster> interesting that even mandlebrot.b contains some dead code. I'm not surprised that lostking does. But I wouldn't have expected dead loops in mandlebrot.b
18:30:05 <pikhq> BTW, good luck finding dead code in anything generated by PEBBLE; it's got a dead code eliminator. Granted, that's *all* it has, but still...
18:30:32 <ehird> "hal deprecation started
18:30:32 <ehird> Karmic Alpha 1's underlying technology for power management and laptop Fn key maps was moved from "hal" (which is going to be deprecated soon) to "DeviceKit-power" and "udev-extras". When testing Alpha 1, please pay particular attention to regressions in those two areas and report bugs."
18:30:40 <AnMaster> when you think about it, it is even stranger that auto generated code contains dead sections. After all it isn't very hard to make a compiler detect if the index cell of a loop has been set to 0 before
18:30:45 <ehird> AnMaster: you'll be happy about that.
18:30:52 <ehird> Kernel team deprecating hal.
18:31:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: Indeed. I did it.
18:31:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the Xorg guys saying
18:31:10 <ais523> what are they going to replace hald with?
18:31:14 <ais523> or are they keeping it but not hal?
18:31:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Dunno; don't they support udev anyway?
18:31:21 <ehird> ais523: whatever udev does?
18:31:35 <AnMaster> ehird, err hal and udev do different things.
18:31:47 <ehird> AnMaster: the ubuntu announcement somehow implies that hal was being replaced with udev.
18:31:55 <ehird> doesn't make sense to me either, but.
18:31:59 <ais523> hald is the thing that does automounting, I think
18:32:02 <ais523> but hal itself is much more general than that
18:32:17 <ehird> ais523: probably hald will stay, then, or an equivalent
18:32:30 <ehird> AnMaster: lkml probably has something on what's replacing hal
18:32:53 <AnMaster> well. I'm not very interested in it. Since I can do without hal currently just fine.
18:33:08 <ehird> AnMaster: presumably, the new way will become the standard way to manage devices
18:33:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I bet you don't have an automounter at all
18:33:26 <ehird> ais523: that's not much of a bet
18:33:34 <ehird> that's like "I bet the grass is green"
18:33:48 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I do. /etc/fstab is set to auto mount some things on boot.
18:33:59 <ais523> that's not an automounter
18:34:09 <ehird> where's that xkcd comic about how misunderstanding words on purpose does not make you clever/funny?
18:34:11 <ehird> consider it linked.
18:34:45 <ehird> ais523: congrats, you win £0
18:34:53 <ais523> ehird: good, I only bet £0
18:35:00 <ehird> ais523: you're rich now
18:35:00 <ais523> also, nobody accepted the bet
18:35:08 <ehird> you bet £0 against yourself
18:36:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I have "Kernel automounter version 4 support (also supports v3)" as a module
18:36:30 <AnMaster> used to use it, don't any more
18:36:35 <AnMaster> since it didn't work very well
18:37:13 <AnMaster> ais523, used it for NFS. But yeah, doesn't work too well.
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18:51:13 <ais523> asiekierka: want a game of BF Joust?
18:51:18 <ais523> I need to adapt that for EgoBot sometime
18:51:28 <ais523> but if you like, paste a program here and I'll run it against one of mine
18:51:31 <ais523> I've already chosen which one I'll use
18:51:56 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523: it seems hal is being replaced with DeviceKit
18:52:04 <ehird> 18:51 asiekierka: what's Joust, in fact ← ...
18:52:28 <asiekierka> When I google "Joust" it only gives me the arcade game
18:52:46 <ais523> BF Joust is an entity of itself
18:53:00 <ais523> I should write a wiki page about it
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19:09:37 <oerjan> huh, avoiding that token did not fix the bug
19:12:08 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
19:13:18 <ais523> GregorR: I made a BF Joust hg bundle, although I don't know how well it will work
19:13:21 <ais523> where should I send it/
19:17:45 <oerjan> ah, the bug was due to my debug statements
19:18:19 <oerjan> i suspected it, they were always dangerous
19:18:38 <ais523> it wraps from 255 to 0, and vice versa
19:18:49 <ais523> which is why the flags start at 128
19:18:51 <ais523> although I changed the rules a bit to make the game much more interesting
19:18:54 <oerjan> but this fix (prepending them with //\) makes them unreadable
19:18:57 <ais523> it already has stone/paper/scissors strategies
19:19:06 <asiekierka> http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html
19:19:20 <ehird> asiekierka: ais523 has hijacked the BF Joust name.
19:19:23 <ais523> it /was/ accurate, but the rules have changed since
19:19:27 <ehird> to refer to his own version
19:19:29 <ais523> ehird: well, Goethe said he was going to change the rules
19:19:33 <ehird> ais523: but not to yours.
19:19:40 <ais523> well, he was soliciting suggestions
19:19:40 <ehird> you should rename it, really.
19:19:46 <ehird> it's Goethe's game
19:19:46 <ais523> and I was the only other person who suggested something
19:20:29 <ais523> and the tape is much shorter (10-30 elements)
19:20:39 <ais523> and you only lose if your flag is 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles
19:20:46 <ehird> ais523: abandoning it is not quite the right word.
19:21:01 <ais523> setting the rules to "coming soon", then not doing anything for a month, then deregistering?
19:21:06 <ais523> asiekierka: to do nothing for a cycle
19:21:09 <ehird> 'doing other things at the moment' != 'abandoned'
19:21:12 <ais523> it is useful on occasion, honestly
19:21:27 <asiekierka> Did anyone make any bot for your Joust?
19:21:53 <ais523> I just made an EgoBot bundle, but it hasn't been applied yet
19:22:41 <ais523> and the game itself is just a one-on-one win/lose/draw
19:22:53 <ais523> you can make it into a tournament in various ways, though
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19:23:17 <ehird> ais523: Theory: Wolfram personally answers every W|A query.
19:23:34 <ehird> ais523: It'd explain a lot!
19:23:36 <ais523> and I stopped using W|A once I read the terms of use
19:24:25 <ehird> asiekierka: badly, it does nothing :P
19:24:36 <ais523> asiekierka: that program would suicide
19:24:43 <ais523> the [>] goes to cell 2
19:24:47 <ais523> then < goes back to your flag
19:24:50 <ais523> then you set your flag to 130
19:24:55 <ais523> then you go off the left end of the tape
19:25:27 <AnMaster> the outer loop will never be entered
19:25:35 <ais523> asiekierka: you've already lost by then
19:25:43 <ais523> AnMaster: this is BF Joust, not regular BF
19:25:50 <ais523> it starts with a 128 on the first tape cell
19:26:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well what is the reason
19:26:16 <ais523> because the idea is to drop the opponent's first tape cell to 0
19:26:23 <ais523> and 128 needs 128 incs or decs to turn it to 0
19:26:33 <ais523> asiekierka: goes one cell to the right, then freezes
19:26:36 <ais523> until the opponent gets near
19:26:50 <AnMaster> ais523, then a program consisting of 128 + or - should be the fastest one
19:26:52 <ais523> asiekierka: because after [> you're on a zero
19:26:58 <ais523> AnMaster: you need to find the opponent's 128
19:27:02 <ais523> a program consisting of 128 + would just suicide
19:27:25 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the opponent's address space mapped then
19:27:29 <ais523> asiekierka: the tape is 128 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128
19:27:34 <ais523> AnMaster: to yours, but backwards
19:27:38 <ais523> asiekierka: with a variable number of 0s
19:27:51 <ais523> it's random from 0 to 30
19:27:56 <ais523> asiekierka: < would fall off the tape
19:27:59 <ehird> asiekierka: no wrapping
19:28:00 <ais523> you're always at the left end of the tape
19:28:03 <ais523> and your opponent at the right ned
19:28:08 <ais523> falling off the tape loses
19:30:37 <ais523> let me write a wiki entry
19:30:53 <ais523> $ cat /home/ais523/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack1.bj
19:31:02 <ais523> that's the archetypal simple BF Joust program
19:32:02 <ehird> That may be an inadvisable file extension.
19:32:48 <ais523> asiekierka: ah, that's clever
19:33:04 <ais523> let me run it against defend5, which is my favourite even though attack5 does slightly better on the hill
19:33:14 <asiekierka> It just gives a defense against -1 blocks
19:33:55 <ais523> $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj
19:33:57 <ais523> Program 2 went off the right end.
19:34:30 <asiekierka> won't using + at the end of the loop set opponent's flag to 1?
19:35:00 <ais523> asiekierka: but it'll already have been at 0 for two cycles
19:35:04 <ais523> one after the -, one after the ]
19:35:41 <ehird> ais523: apparently alpha is actually 5-6 million lines
19:35:51 <ais523> wow, that's a lot of specialcasing
19:36:36 <ais523> $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj
19:36:37 <ais523> Program 1's flag fell.
19:36:41 <ais523> asiekierka: congrats, you beat me
19:36:46 <ais523> pikhq: , is a comment in my version of BF Joust
19:37:03 <ais523> ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj
19:37:04 <ais523> Program 2's flag fell.
19:37:22 <asiekierka> Well, so i'm good against defense but worse against attack, it seems
19:37:23 <ehird> asiekierka: that means you're the new #2
19:37:47 <pikhq> [>-(repeat 128 times)]
19:38:36 <ais523> pikhq: that would be [>(-)*128] in my abbreviation syntax
19:38:52 <pikhq> ais523: A good syntax.
19:39:36 <ais523> $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/defend5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj
19:39:37 <ais523> Program 2 went off the right end.
19:39:43 <pikhq> Personally what I want is a parsable abbreviation syntax. Say, something simple like [>-(128)] for operator repetition and "foo\n" for strings...
19:39:49 <ais523> $ ./bfjoust ~/esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/attack5.bj /tmp/asiekierka.bj
19:39:51 <ais523> Program 2's flag fell.
19:40:00 <ais523> pikhq: the two abbreviation syntaxes:
19:40:06 <pikhq> Just that and the ability to compile to Brainfuck.
19:40:24 <ais523> (a{b}c)%5 = aaaaabccccc
19:40:36 <ais523> you can't have unmatched brackets in an abbreviation
19:41:03 <ais523> but you can do, say, (a[{b}]c)%5 = a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c
19:41:14 * ehird reads a scifi story by Steve Yegge
19:41:20 <ehird> true to form, it's long
19:41:20 <asiekierka> And can there be no spaces between my cell and the opponent's cell?
19:41:43 <pikhq> Hadny for, say, [-(>{+}<)%5]
19:42:05 <asiekierka> ais523: Can there be something like 128 128 or must it be 128 0 128
19:42:16 <ais523> it's from 10 to 30 chars long
19:42:28 <ais523> as in, 128 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 128 is the minimum
19:42:40 <ais523> asiekierka: ah, the old decoy strategy
19:42:45 <ais523> it would likely be better without the <<<
19:43:13 <ais523> beats defend5, loses to attack5
19:43:56 <asiekierka> augh, i don't know how to battle with attack5
19:45:04 <asiekierka> >>++++++++[-<++++++++++++++++>][>+[-]+.]
19:45:38 <asiekierka> but it takes too much time, but I wonder how it'd work
19:46:20 <ais523> asiekierka: ][ is nearly always bad to put in a BF program
19:46:26 <ais523> you probably don't mean that
19:46:46 <ais523> the [>+[-]+.] will never run
19:46:56 <ais523> you leave the 128 in a different cell
19:47:02 <ais523> you probably want a > in there or something
19:47:03 <asiekierka> >>++++++++[-<++++++++++++++++>]+[>+[-]+.]
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19:47:20 <ehird> oerjan: [[The Kondos took four adjacent seats near the center. A cheery voice filled the room. "Welcome to the Death of Saint Dawkins Historical Tour. I'm Marv, your Tour Guide, and I will be sharing exciting facts with you before the tour, and also during the tour in your Tour Bodies. ]]
19:47:32 <ehird> faintly Babykiller style her
19:47:33 <ais523> asiekierka: beats defend5, loses to attack5
19:47:59 <ais523> asiekierka: and how is a BF program meant to know it's set to 128?
19:48:25 <ais523> besides, attack5 will go onto the next tape element if it sees something that looks like a flag and sets it to 0
19:48:35 <ais523> but I mean, attack5 doesn't know it's a fake flag
19:48:36 <asiekierka> >>++++++++++++++++[-<++++++++>>++++++++<]+[>+[-]+]
19:48:42 <ais523> because it doesn't keep a count to see that it was 128
19:48:59 <asiekierka> >>++++++++++++++++[-<++++++++>>++++++++<]>[>+[-]+]
19:49:32 <asiekierka> because i noticed i waste 1 cycle each time
19:52:13 <ehird> The Tour Guide's voice became even more cheerful. "We will be carefully monitoring the entire tour. In the unlikely event that something really awful happens, such as a black hole appearing and sucking you all into a vortex beyond the reach of our equipment, we will refund your entire tour fee, no questions asked."
19:52:24 <ais523> asiekierka: no, now both my programs win
19:52:43 <ais523> that was running the second program there
19:53:22 <ais523> that by itself? or at the end of the program above?
19:54:14 <ais523> beats defend, loses to attack
19:54:28 <ais523> (defend's win above was you going off the right end of the tape from your point of view)
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20:14:34 * ais523 finishes http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
20:17:10 * oerjan watches his BCT interpreter successfully quit
20:17:35 <oerjan> now it just needs to do the right thing before doing so
20:18:03 <oerjan> oh it also deletes bits correctly
20:18:18 <ais523> just it's adding that's the problem?
20:18:25 <oerjan> and the quit is properly detecting that its out of bits
20:18:34 <ais523> are you writing a BCT interp in ///, or a BCT to /// compiler?
20:18:48 <oerjan> a BCT interp in ///, essentially
20:19:03 <oerjan> just paste the program and data into the right spot
20:19:22 <oerjan> slow as molasses of course
20:23:55 * oerjan is afraid of hitting that perl bug again, despite the redesign
20:24:51 <oerjan> well 5.8.8 which is here just crashes with Segmentation Fault
20:25:09 <oerjan> but 5.10 on EgoBot gives a regex recursion limit exceeded
20:26:13 <oerjan> apparently trying to match more than ~ 32768 [^/\\]|\\. in a row doesn't work
20:26:34 <oerjan> or something close to that, anyway
20:27:07 <oerjan> and that's exactly what the main self-replication substitution in the program does if it gets too large
20:27:43 <ais523> clearly a better interp is needed
20:27:53 <oerjan> ehird keeps promising one :D
20:28:03 <ehird> my C interp has a skeleton
20:28:06 <ehird> and my haskell interp works
20:28:10 <ehird> but it always works
20:28:20 <ehird> but, as I said, a lot slower than the perl one
20:28:31 <oerjan> since this program is slow as molasses already that doesn't sound too appetizing
20:28:48 <ehird> I will work on my C interp now, I think.
20:28:53 <ehird> Thanks for the inspiration.
20:29:26 <ehird> The main problem is goddamn C string manipulation sucking. :-)
20:29:34 <oerjan> of course i _might_ get lucky and not hit the limit, but if it's 32768 copies of \\. then i might hit it at ~ 64K
20:30:01 <oerjan> arrays of char seem right here
20:30:08 <oerjan> of course that's what they are
20:30:23 <ehird> Allocation information.
20:30:25 <ehird> Otherwise I'd be using strlen() a lot.
20:30:57 <oerjan> my point was really not to use C's string routines, only direct array manipulation
20:31:20 <oerjan> i feel this should give an optimal /// interpreter
20:31:24 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure there's good string libraries out there you could use.
20:31:35 <pikhq> Of course, writing your own basically works. :p
20:31:55 <ehird> The irritating thing is reallocation. To delete a char, I could do length--, data++ -- but then realloc will fail.
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20:32:02 <ehird> So I need to keep a pointer to the base. But then I'm wasting memory.
20:32:30 <ehird> ais523: any thoughts on how to basically say "hey malloc, move the start of this pointer +1"
20:32:35 <ehird> i suppose it's not possible
20:32:35 <oerjan> ehird: did you see my /ab/bbaa/abb example btw?
20:33:02 <oerjan> it's an infinite loop, but the source is _not_ a substring of the destination
20:33:12 <ais523> ehird: no, there isn't a mirrored_realloc
20:33:12 <ehird> that's ok, I don't rely on that
20:33:20 <ehird> ais523: what should I do?
20:33:37 <ehird> % ./slashes hello.sss
20:33:37 <ehird> zsh: abort ./slashes hello.sss
20:33:39 <ehird> we have bigger problems :-)
20:33:55 <ehird> ais523: er, what? how is that helpful at all?
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20:34:09 <ais523> ehird: as in, you keep a base pointer for a while, wasting memory
20:34:17 <ais523> when you've wasted too much, you just move everything in memory
20:34:17 <ehird> wasting memory is the problem
20:34:23 <ehird> i'll never waste too much
20:34:28 <ehird> but it'll be really hoggy
20:34:32 <ais523> sort-of like garbage collection, but not
20:35:17 <ehird> the abort was me calling abort()
20:35:39 <ais523> it wouldn't be an abort otherwise, it'd be a segfault or something
20:35:53 <ais523> it's only abort, assert, and manually raising a signal that gives you aborts
20:36:04 <ehird> http://www97.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=a+million+bacon Facts about a million bacon.
20:37:06 <ehird> ais523: setbuf(stdout, NULL); then doing a putchar doesn't make it appear :-(
20:37:10 <ehird> I dun wanna fflush all the time
20:37:46 <ais523> what if you do a write on stdout's fd, rather than using stdio?
20:37:54 <ais523> I'm not saying that's the best way
20:37:57 <ais523> I'm just wondering if it works
20:38:13 <ehird> ais523: heh, so write(0, &character, 1)
20:38:27 <ehird> write(0, &program->data[0], 1); ← bit redundant &ing on an [0] but there you go
20:38:47 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] % ./slashes /dev/stdin
20:38:49 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/slashes] %
20:38:53 <Deewiant> ehird: setvbuf(stdout, NULL, _IONBF, 0);
20:38:55 <ehird> I pressed a, enter, ^D
20:39:02 <ehird> Deewiant: that's what setbuf(stdout, NULL) does
20:39:11 <fizzie> ehird: I think you want write(1, ...) if you want stdout.
20:39:16 <Deewiant> And what are you doing that doesn't work
20:39:23 <ehird> Deewiant: putchar(x)
20:39:32 <ehird> write(1, &program->data[0], 1);
20:39:48 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeeeessssssss but what are you doing that makes you notice whether it's buffered or not
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20:40:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Printing a character without a newline.
20:40:10 <ehird> It doth not appear.
20:40:28 <ais523> it's probably something to do with the terminal application
20:40:29 <Deewiant> putchar('c') followed by getchar() WFM
20:40:53 <ehird> Deewiant: that's nice, I don't want to getcha
20:41:05 <Deewiant> ehird: So what /do/ you want to do
20:41:08 <Deewiant> ehird: That's what I was asking
20:41:23 <ehird> Oh, so that's the bug
20:41:24 <Deewiant> What are you doing after the print that makes you notice when it's been flushed or not
20:41:38 <ehird> Deewiant: it's nothing to do with that, but I found the bug anyway
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20:43:13 <ehird> Solution: Don't use fstat on stdin. It does not know how big your input will be. :-)
20:43:49 <ehird> So I have to realloc. Grumble.
20:44:43 <oerjan> ehird: (1) build a linked list (2) move to an array afterwards, if you want
20:45:03 <ehird> oerjan: Build a linked list? Yes, I'm going to give the C version the performance characteristics of the Haskell one.
20:45:19 <oerjan> ehird: not for _using_, just for initialising
20:45:35 <ehird> well, sure, but it's easier just to realloc
20:45:36 <oerjan> that way you don't need to know the size until you have read all
20:49:50 <ehird> % ./slashes hello-simple.sss
20:50:01 <ehird> length isn't increasing prop'ly
20:50:40 <oerjan> ok now we'll find out if i really need your interpreter :D
20:51:09 <oerjan> the program now contains all functional parts, modulo bugs
20:51:58 <ehird> oerjan: Well, mine will be better because it's fast :-)
20:52:37 <oerjan> also this program is not optimal /// of course, due to only using /\ in the core parts
20:53:44 <ehird> while ((read = fread(trail, 1024, 1, file))) {
20:53:44 <ehird> result->length += read;
20:53:51 <ehird> ais523: how would that leave length at 0?
20:53:55 <ehird> assume a non-empty file
20:54:01 <oerjan> hagbart:oerjan:slashes> ./slashes.pl bct.sss
20:54:31 <ehird> oerjan: hagbart is a funny name
20:55:06 <oerjan> i think it's some children's book character or similar
20:55:15 <ehird> oh not your machine, i forgot
20:55:31 <oerjan> well, also a norwegian name
20:55:40 <ais523> ehird: what was length to start with?
20:55:52 <ehird> result->length = 0;
20:55:54 <Deewiant> ehird: Print length before and after at every iteration, etc
20:56:12 <ehird> Deewiant: that doesn't help me reason why it's broken, just fix it
20:56:21 <ais523> a return value from fread less than its second argument implies that it didn't manage to read as much as requested, so either FRC or an error
20:56:29 <ais523> umm... I mean EOF or an error
20:56:39 <oerjan> 51262 bytes, that's less than 64K
20:56:40 <Deewiant> ehird: It helps you find where the problem is
20:56:41 <ais523> so if it's a non-empty file, it wasn't EOF, so it much be an error
20:57:00 <ais523> ehird: in that case, there's something wrong in the information you're giving me
20:57:11 <ais523> what's the scoping of "read"
20:57:13 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
20:57:18 <ais523> it's quite strange to give a variable the same name as a standard posix function
20:57:29 <ehird> hmm good pointI 'll change that
20:57:31 <oerjan> presumably it timed out
20:57:36 <ais523> I don't think that's causing the error, but I don't know
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20:57:50 <oerjan> which may mean 5.10 did _not_ hit a recursion limit
20:58:04 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/481985.txt?key=kvtbyozt1yhfcjbbl5uttg
20:58:19 <oerjan> since that happens long before the runtime-heavy parts
21:02:12 <ais523> ehird: xmalloc is just a wrapper around malloc?
21:02:20 <ehird> ais523: yes, the very trivial kind
21:02:23 <ehird> just checks its return value
21:04:26 <oerjan> apparently removing all debug statements was enough to make perl not crash
21:04:30 <ehird> ais523: any theories?
21:04:51 <oerjan> unfortunately the /// program is buggy, so i guess i'll have to carefully readd some :D
21:06:47 <ehird> ais523: quantum fluctuations?
21:08:04 <ais523> does the same bug repeat if you run again/
21:08:08 <ais523> you might have forgotten to compile
21:09:50 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, found a number of bugs using careful coverage analysis
21:09:55 <ehird> while ((bytes_read = fread(trail, 1024, 1, file))) {
21:09:56 <ehird> printf("HI MOM\n");
21:09:57 <ehird> ais523: never written
21:10:19 <ais523> fread's returning 0 the first time, obviously
21:10:41 <ais523> I was wondering if you'd set bytes_read to unsigned char by mistake, but you didn't
21:10:49 * ais523 made that mistake once in similar code...
21:11:06 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't gcc warn about that?
21:11:51 <AnMaster> I remember ICC warning "significant bits may be lost"
21:12:13 <AnMaster> ah hm, it seems -Wconversion does this in recent gccs (while it does something totally different in older ones)
21:12:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:14:18 <ehird> ais523: no ideas whatsoever?
21:14:33 <ais523> no, I'm doing something else
21:14:44 <ehird> number of objects read or written
21:14:47 <ehird> so it'll return 1 each time
21:15:04 <ehird> while ((bytes_read = fread(trail, 1, 1024, file))) {
21:17:00 <AnMaster> Why coverage analysis is useful: Without it I wouldn't have ended up writing a test program like: +>+<[>]>+[[-].>.+.<.+.]>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]+[++.>++<,]>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]>,<+[,[-]>[-<+>]<]>>>>>>>>>>>>+<+[>]>,<+[,[-]>[-<+>]>++<<++]>>>>>>>>>>>>. And no real code would have triggered the bug either.
21:17:19 <ehird> ais523: your trampoline style thing might work well— otherwise I have to realloc all the time.
21:17:28 <ehird> oerjan: I'm going to optimize for speed first, then memory usage, sound good?
21:18:54 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:18:59 <ais523> AnMaster: is that a minimal BF program that triggers all your code paths?
21:19:03 <oerjan> i'm only using about 50K maximal program length, so...
21:19:29 <AnMaster> ais523, um, in the index difference analyser
21:19:42 <AnMaster> the part that tells me if the loop always goes -1 every iteration or whatever
21:19:55 <AnMaster> and it doesn't trigger all. There is one variant left.
21:20:08 * AnMaster is trying to work out how to trigger it
21:20:19 <oerjan> hm maybe 50% more than that, at one point
21:21:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I aim at 100% coverage analysis. (Or 99.9% or so, since obviously the bits that says "throw({internal_error,...})" should be unreachable!)
21:21:28 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:21:35 <ais523> AnMaster: you should have 100% coverage with NDEBUG defined
21:21:45 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no NDEBUG for erlang
21:22:13 <AnMaster> ais523, um. I do have a ?TRACE() macro in some files.
21:22:39 <AnMaster> anyway I have a list of bugs found, but first to make sure to get as much coverage in other modules too.
21:22:45 <ais523> the purpose of NDEBUG is to check whether your debug code affects program flow
21:22:45 <AnMaster> and also found a few unreachable lines.
21:22:48 <ais523> by running both with and without it
21:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, all those internal error throws are meant to be in the live code
21:23:28 <ais523> well, you can leave NDEBUG off for the release version
21:23:31 <ais523> and just turn it on for debugging
21:23:34 <AnMaster> they will trigger whenever I add a new opcode and forgot to add handling of it in some module.
21:24:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that will still throw exceptions then, just different, more unreadable, ones. Stuff like: "{'EXIT',{{case_clause,{ok,{set_from,1,0}}}, [{ib_opt_value_prop,optimise,3},...]}}
21:24:54 <ais523> well, it's just for coverage testing
21:25:20 <AnMaster> btw, when running that in the REPL it formats it as:
21:25:22 <AnMaster> ** exception error: no case clause matching {ok,{set_from,1,0}}
21:25:22 <AnMaster> in function ib_opt_value_prop:optimise/3
21:26:09 <AnMaster> ais523, problem is it doesn't tell me what exact case clause, or even what function clause of ib_opt_value_prop:optimise/3
21:26:15 <AnMaster> which have quite a few entry points
21:26:26 <AnMaster> (need to enable debugger mode to get that)
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21:54:50 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
21:55:06 <EgoBot> perl #!/usr/bin/perl -w
21:56:09 <oerjan> did EgoBot stop using DCC CHAT?
21:57:05 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:57:07 <ais523> oerjan: is that correct output?
21:57:18 <ais523> that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl
21:57:28 <EgoBot> show: !show <interp>. Shows the definition of a user interpreter.
21:57:32 <oerjan> ais523: so to speak. it's the line _after_ that which goes haywire here
21:57:40 <oerjan> um that's not the perl
21:57:52 <AnMaster> copy propagation is hard. Much harder than constant propagation
21:58:05 <oerjan> because i also did !show slashes
21:58:08 <ais523> AnMaster: use a trail array?
21:58:11 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
21:58:13 <oerjan> to check that the interpreter was there
21:58:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know what that is. Please tell me
21:58:28 <ais523> and it DCCed just fine
21:58:30 <oerjan> why didn't it send DCC to me?
21:58:34 <ais523> AnMaster: read up on how Prolog is implemented
21:58:51 <AnMaster> ais523, um, any good resource for that.
21:58:56 <oerjan> maybe it was too hard at work with the ///
21:59:02 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
21:59:19 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
21:59:21 <AnMaster> ais523, if possible assuming no prior knowledge of prolog ;P
21:59:26 <AnMaster> but I realise that could be hard
21:59:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know of any good Prolog resources online
21:59:46 <ais523> I learnt from hardcopy books
22:00:05 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know how Forte is implemented?
22:00:09 <ais523> that uses a trail array too
22:00:09 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what I do currently is keep a reverse mapping of copies from a offset, then when that offset changes I remove the relevant "known copies" in the forward mapping
22:01:36 <AnMaster> ais523, forward: dict(key=Offset, value={const | copy_from | set_from, Offset}) reverse: dict(key=Offset, value=set(OffsetsReferencingMe))
22:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and no I don't know how Forte is implemented.
22:04:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it's basically a hash of mappings between pointers
22:04:41 <ais523> much the same, i think
22:05:55 <AnMaster> anyway, next step: Figuring out finite and infinite loops.
22:06:39 <ehird> 20:57 ais523: that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl
22:06:42 <AnMaster> In some cases it is trivial. Like the infinite loops: [] [>+<] and the finite loop: [+>++<]
22:06:42 <ehird> don't troll AnMaster :)
22:06:54 <ehird> AnMaster: wahey halting problem
22:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, of course, in the general case
22:07:11 <ehird> 21:19 oerjan: i'm only using about 50K maximal program length, so...
22:07:18 <ehird> what about running, say
22:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, but there are some more cases that can be figured out: +[++] is infinite assuming 8 bit cells
22:07:23 <ehird> an infinite loop that never grows in length, appends and deletes
22:07:28 <ehird> that'll use more storage forever and ever
22:07:29 <AnMaster> and that is what I'm wondering how to figure out
22:07:55 <oerjan> you mean if you do your memory very lousily
22:07:59 <ehird> i'm talking about slashes, AnMaster
22:08:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> 20:57 ais523: that just looks like ASCII line noise, rather than Perl <ehird> don't troll AnMaster :)
22:08:19 <ehird> oerjan: if I don't slowly realloc all the time, yes, the memory usage will never shrink
22:08:33 <ehird> AnMaster: "Don't troll AnMaster" != "Don't troll, AnMaster"
22:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the offset from UTC
22:09:10 <ehird> 0, unless it's BST now
22:09:19 <ehird> it's from my bouncer
22:09:22 <ehird> which has been reporting times wrong lately
22:09:28 <ehird> 21:04 AnMaster: and that is messy. :/
22:09:28 <ehird> 22:04 End of quicklog.
22:09:31 <ehird> i guess it's BST in britain atm
22:09:34 <ehird> so the bouncer is gmt
22:09:46 <ehird> ais523: is it BST?
22:10:02 <AnMaster> ehird, check in your own terminal with date -u
22:10:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it's 21:10 UTC
22:10:30 <ehird> I wonder if the clocks have been set.
22:10:46 <ais523> how did you not notice?
22:10:49 <AnMaster> ehird, since several weeks iirc
22:10:49 <ehird> ais523: when did that happen?
22:10:55 <ais523> ehird: quite a while ago
22:10:58 <ehird> and, well, I don't really notice these things
22:11:02 <ais523> it's may now, IIRC it happens some time in March
22:11:03 <ehird> since my computer and phone both automatically adjust
22:11:09 <ehird> then I probably noticed it
22:11:12 <ehird> but have forgotten by now
22:11:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway know any good way to figure out when you have a loop like: [-]+[++] that the second one will never hit 0
22:12:12 <ehird> AnMaster: just bruteforce it for 8 bit values
22:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, for all possible 8 bit offsets, for all possible starting values
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22:12:31 <ehird> if you repeat a state — which you will —
22:12:37 <ehird> then voila, it runs forever
22:12:41 <AnMaster> what about: ++[---] and ++++[----]
22:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, there must be a better solution
22:13:00 <ais523> ehird's idea would work, I suspect there's a more efficient way but can't be bothered to work out the details right now
22:13:13 <ehird> AnMaster: mine's the standard way to figure out an infinite loop if you have finite states
22:13:13 <ais523> it would involve checking each of the individual powers of 2, I think
22:13:21 <ehird> you can do it more efficiently,
22:13:26 <ehird> but mine will catch all the cases, pretty much
22:13:47 <ehird> it's how you check the haltingosity of a sub-TM program on a TM
22:13:53 <ehird> store all states, if you repeat, infinite loop.
22:14:07 <AnMaster> is it just me or is http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/bfc/ unreachable
22:14:35 <AnMaster> ehird, got a local copy of the source?
22:14:54 <ehird> I deleted ~/Downloads/bfc/; you are welcome to point me to an HFS+ file recovery tool.
22:15:25 <ehird> ais523: er... how does that help?
22:15:30 <ehird> I could grep /dev/sda
22:15:31 <ais523> well, even just grep will do if you can remember a line from the file
22:15:33 <ehird> but that'd take forever
22:15:35 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:15:45 <ehird> there are tools for e.g. ext3 that do it faster somehow
22:16:27 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some better way in it using GCD...
22:17:05 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:17:19 <ehird> I'd start doing regular backups with my new machine, but packing up 160GB+2TB isn't easy
22:17:25 <ehird> because you have to purchase an awful lot of storage...
22:17:40 <ehird> OR, use something like tarsnap, and pay something like $700 (iirc) a month to store it all
22:17:51 <ehird> as a bonus, the transmission time for the backup is <ages>
22:18:07 <ehird> those are the two components of plan9's fs
22:18:22 <ehird> AnMaster: yes; you store(foo) where foo is of limited length and it gives an sha-1 hash
22:18:25 <ehird> and you can do retrieve(hash)
22:18:36 <ehird> sha-1 is not advisable nowadays, but when it was safe:
22:18:44 <ehird> - people who don't know the hash can't get the file — so secure
22:18:54 <ehird> - you can verify whether the returned block is correct w/ the hash — so unforgeable
22:19:04 <ehird> - it guarantees uniqueness (not any more, though)
22:19:21 <ehird> Venti is a network storage system that permanently stores data blocks. A 160-bit SHA-1 hash of the data (called score by Venti) acts as the address of the data. This enforces a write-once policy since no other data block can be found with the same address. The addresses of multiple writes of the same data are identical, so duplicate data is easily identified and the data block is stored only once. Data blocks cannot be removed, making it ideal for perman
22:19:23 <ehird> ent or backup storage. Venti is typically used with Fossil to provide a file system with permanent snapshots.
22:19:26 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venti
22:19:31 <AnMaster> cp /var/tmp/kdecache-arvid/http/h/hg* .
22:19:43 * AnMaster reads the source from the cache
22:21:34 <ehird> oerjan: idea for the memory:
22:21:42 <ehird> oerjan: store a string as a linked list of 10KB blocks
22:21:48 <ehird> normally, it's just an increment-pointer affair
22:21:56 <ehird> but deleting over a node boundary frees the previous node
22:22:05 <ehird> so, the constant-infinite-loop would grow to 10KB, then reset
22:22:18 <ehird> should be reasonably fast
22:23:03 <ehird> http://pastebin.com/f566b8406 permanent :P
22:23:07 <ais523> AnMaster: have you saved the whole esotope-bfc?
22:23:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it will be up tomorrow
22:23:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and all that was in cache from the hg web thing
22:23:31 <ehird> AnMaster: so are you ripping off esotope-bfc's algorithms wholesale like you did with ccbi?
22:23:39 <ais523> have you saved it anyway, just in case lifthrasiir's had a catastrophic hardware failure or something?
22:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not. I'm trying to figure out the right way
22:23:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I never checked it out before
22:24:17 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:24:27 <AnMaster> I'll probably do it when it is back up
22:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and I already have better optimisation than esotope-bfc for a few specific things.
22:25:37 <AnMaster> it beats me in general by having better loop unrolling though
22:25:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
22:25:51 <AnMaster> while I have better copy propagation
22:26:38 <ehird> oerjan: sound good?
22:26:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:29:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:30:33 <ehird> ais523: there's a whole subreddit devoted to wolfram alpha inputs
22:31:12 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:31:31 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/AlphaInputs/
22:32:13 <ais523> haha, I love the SHA-1 thing
22:32:23 <Deewiant> http://www14.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=SHA1+%22Wolfram+Alpha%22
22:32:28 <ais523> the answer to 'SHA-1 "Wolfram Alpha"' looks plausible
22:32:30 <ais523> but changes when you refresh
22:32:56 <ehird> that's because it interprets it as SHA | 1 "Wolfram Alpha"; what that means I have no idea
22:33:15 <ehird> "I wonder if, instead of hashing your query, it's hashing the string representation of an object it creates to represent your query. "
22:33:19 <ehird> Deewiant: refresh more
22:33:41 <Deewiant> I've refreshed over ten times and it hasn't changed
22:33:50 <ehird> oerjan: as a bonus, I don't have to track allocation amount
22:33:53 <ehird> oerjan: it's always 10KB
22:34:07 <ais523> what about if you reclick on that = button?
22:34:22 <ehird> /* split into 10KB chunks */
22:34:22 <ehird> typedef struct _string {
22:34:29 <ehird> struct _string *next;
22:34:34 <ehird> http://www10.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=where+am+I ← pretty good
22:34:38 <ehird> it even tells you your ipv6 addr
22:34:44 <ehird> although not your ipv4 address
22:34:48 <ehird> and I don't HAVE an ipv6 addr
22:34:57 <ehird> i don't know what it gives me
22:35:02 <ais523> it's just the IPv4 one converted to IPv6 syntax
22:35:06 <Deewiant> It looks like an IPv4 address in IPv6 form
22:35:19 <ehird> ais523: that's 0::ff::3.4.234.23 or something
22:35:20 <ais523> the prefix means "this is actually an IPv4 address"
22:35:32 <Deewiant> ::ffff:<top 16 bytes in hex form>:<lower 16 bytes in hex form>
22:35:32 <ehird> oh, is it adding the digits?
22:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, since you seemed so interested: http://omploader.org/vMXA2Mw is the recovered cache as a .tar.lzma
22:36:14 <AnMaster> ais523, internal links won't work mostly
22:36:14 <ais523> there's about a 99% chance that that's irrelevant, and a 1% chance that this will cause something esoterically significant to not be lost forever
22:36:40 <ehird> is it so significant?
22:36:44 <ehird> anmaster's rewritten most of it already
22:36:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd say 99.999999% and 0.000001%
22:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster: not that many 9s
22:37:14 <ais523> would you say that at least 6000 people in the world will die today?
22:37:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't look at it's code until recently
22:37:24 <ehird> but you have most the same optimizations
22:37:26 <AnMaster> when I was trying to figure out the infinite loop issue
22:37:46 <AnMaster> ehird, also the method it is done in is very different
22:37:56 <AnMaster> it seems to work by simplifying blocks
22:38:19 <AnMaster> while mine is "sort and peephole" + a few long stretching ones (constant/copy propagation)
22:40:45 <Deewiant> http://www35.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=compare+male+to+female
22:41:30 <AnMaster> plus mine is slow as <badword />. It takes ~half a minute to process lostking
22:42:01 <AnMaster> "To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser" Hm... That should read "To see any output ..."
22:43:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "compare male to male" -> male population | 3.372 billion people (total)
22:43:50 <ais523> AnMaster: half a minute on lostkng is not slow!
22:43:56 <ais523> unless that's the output program, not the interp
22:44:30 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes it is the compiler.
22:45:37 <AnMaster> wait, misread "impl" as "iler"
22:45:46 <AnMaster> like you were adding to the end of compi
22:46:05 <AnMaster> (and I thought the extra i was a typo)
22:46:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't do balanced loop -> polynom in that
22:46:37 <AnMaster> it is the major part still left to implement
22:47:37 <ehird> ais523: do you think compilers will handle "char foo[1048576]"?
22:47:59 <ais523> but 16-bit DOS compilers are unlikely too
22:48:03 <ais523> without proprietary extensions
22:48:14 <AnMaster> http://www35.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Wolfram <-- aren't there other people with the same name who are more well known. Like whoever the element Wolfram was named after...
22:48:27 <ehird> AnMaster: W|A is wolfram world.
22:48:33 <ehird> he is the most important person in it.
22:48:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I'm just disagreeing
22:48:52 <ehird> Deewiant: how retarded
22:48:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It gives you tungsten as an alternative
22:49:09 <ais523> AnMaster: as ehird said, nanoDijkstras are too small a unit
22:49:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "use as a chemical element"
22:49:24 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: as ehird said, nanoDijkstras are too small a unit <-- what, where
22:49:26 <ehird> ais523: it's milliDijkstras that are typically used
22:49:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Wolfram isn't named after a person called wolfram
22:49:33 <ehird> but even those are too small
22:49:36 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:49:38 <ehird> Dijkstra seems terribly humble in comparison
22:49:39 <Deewiant> It's named after the mineral called wolframite
22:49:45 <ais523> is that named after a person?
22:49:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, and what is that named after.
22:49:56 <ehird> I postulate that Wolfram's ego is double digits of Dijkstras.
22:50:03 <ehird> and growing constantly
22:50:04 <Deewiant> Apparently it comes from "Wolf Rahm"
22:50:29 <ehird> so Wolfram is called Wolf soot?
22:50:31 <ehird> I can live with that
22:50:47 <fizzie> The IPv6-mapped IPv4-address is that 0:0:0:0:0:ffff:<32 bits of IPv4>; Alpha seems to be giving it in the normal IPv6 address form, that "::ffff:a.b.c.d" easier-for-humans notation would mean the same thing.
22:51:43 <Deewiant> "Tungsten", in turn, comes from "tung sten" meaning "heavy stone" in Swedish and related languages
22:52:46 <ehird> _foo = don't touch this in python
22:53:06 <AnMaster> ehird, "don't touch this"? So how comes he has lots of functions named that way
22:53:23 <ehird> AnMaster: extended in that it returns 3 values
22:53:30 <ehird> and because they're private-esque
22:53:34 <Deewiant> How does "don't touch these" imply "there are few of these"
22:53:36 <ehird> "don't call this from outside this class and subclasses"
22:53:42 <ehird> Deewiant: i don't even know
22:53:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah not "implementation don't touch"
22:53:58 <AnMaster> as in... "reserved by compiler"
22:54:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:54:10 <Deewiant> That's __foo__ in Python, AFAIK.
22:54:20 <AnMaster> ah, he has lots of them too. But normal names
22:54:25 <fizzie> You're allowed to represent the last 32 bits with dotted-decimal if you want in any address, so I could write one of mine (2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:fee4:a593) in an obfuscated form "2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:254.228.165.147".. though given how ugly the addresses are in the normal form, maybe that doesn't buy much.
22:54:30 <AnMaster> 6 def __nonzero__(self): return True
22:54:40 <ehird> AnMaster: those are compiler internal.
22:54:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it's like
22:54:47 <ehird> def __eq__(self,other):
22:55:01 <ehird> __foo__ is pronounced "magic foo"
22:55:06 <AnMaster> 16 def __nonzero__(self): return False
22:55:06 <AnMaster> 17 def __str__(self): return '0'
22:55:06 <AnMaster> 18 def __repr__(self): return 'False'
22:55:25 <ehird> 22:55 AnMaster: 17 def __str__(self): return '0'
22:55:25 <ehird> 22:55 AnMaster: 18 def __repr__(self): return 'False'
22:55:26 <ehird> ↑ ok, that's fucked up
22:55:26 <Deewiant> __str__ is probably automatic string conversion for printf-style things
22:55:38 <ehird> repr is representation
22:55:40 <Deewiant> __nonzero__ is implicit boolean conversin?
22:55:52 <ehird> nonzero is boolean shit, yep
22:56:02 <ehird> but repring as False and stringing as 0?
22:56:06 <AnMaster> he use nonzero for nodes to remove dead nodes
22:56:06 <ehird> that's a recipe for confusion!
22:56:21 <ehird> is what would happen
22:56:27 <ehird> if that makes sense to you, you're barmy
22:56:41 <Deewiant> It could just be convenience for something
22:56:59 <ais523> sorry, couldn't resist
22:57:07 <ais523> (that isn't legal Perl6 anyway, zeroness isn't a trait)
22:57:26 <ais523> you can express it in Perl5 as Scalar::Util::dualvar 0, "False"
22:57:43 <ais523> but dualvar messes around with compiler internals to get that weird result
22:57:48 <ais523> you probably aren't supposed to use it a lot
22:57:54 <AnMaster> 15 def __getitem__(self, offset):
22:57:54 <AnMaster> 16 return Expr(Expr(offset).code + [_EXPRREF])
22:58:01 <ehird> AnMaster: foo[x] = foo.__getitem__(x)
22:58:09 <ehird> also, metaclass is complicated
22:58:12 <ehird> and slots is complicated
22:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, is it bad or good thing
22:58:19 <ehird> learn the python object model :-)
22:58:24 <Deewiant> It's obviously operator overloading for []
22:58:39 <AnMaster> 287 self.code = self._simplify(self.code)
22:58:51 <ehird> AnMaster: stop pasting
22:58:53 <ehird> that __str__ is evil?
22:59:00 <ehird> printing an object modifying it‽‽‽
22:59:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Pasting from pastebins since 2006
22:59:10 <ais523> ehird: wow, I only just noticed that
22:59:30 <ais523> that's considerably more evil than doing all your calculations in the paint callback
22:59:37 <ehird> I charge lifthrasiir (sp) with the Class-A-Bajillion crime of writing terrible code
22:59:37 <ais523> or even the mousemove callback
22:59:57 <AnMaster> it overrides __gt__ __hash__ and various other ones
22:59:59 <ais523> (the paint callback is excusable on occasion, the mousemove callback isn't unless moving the mouse should sensibly trigger the calculations)
23:00:35 <AnMaster> it overrides __div__ and _rdiv__ btw
23:00:46 <fizzie> Am I mistaken, or was it not possible in Perl 5 to craft a scalar (with suitable magic) that returned arbitrary values for all three of {boolean context, string context, integer context}. I seem to remember reading something like that once, but Scalar::Util::dualvar only overrides string/integer ones, leaving truthness determined from the int value.
23:00:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the difference between __div__ and __rdiv__
23:01:04 <ehird> what deewiant said
23:01:15 <ehird> AnMaster: if in a/b, a can't handle the b division
23:01:17 -!- oklodok has joined.
23:01:21 <ehird> then b.__rdiv__(a) is called
23:01:26 <ehird> it's a hack because python doesn't have multidispatch
23:01:43 <ehird> python only does it for a few operators
23:01:49 <ehird> I don't think there's an req
23:02:10 <AnMaster> add/sub/mul/div/mod it seems like
23:02:32 <ehird> ais523: your wikipedia makes horrible abuse of the semicolon
23:02:36 <ehird> er, wikipedia user page
23:02:54 <ais523> I haven't looked at that for ages
23:03:02 <ehird> ais523: replacing ; a with . A:
23:03:03 <ehird> Hello! I'm ais523, an incrementalist metapedian ex-administrator. (I removed my adminship due to inactivity. I'm sufficiently inactive nowadays that I'm unlikely to be able to answer queries on a resonable timeframe.) I'm happy to help new users (or experienced users, for that matter). Just leave a note on my talk page. In particular, I can help with wikimarkup (especially template wikimarkup), user scripts, and signatures. However, I'm not always online
23:03:07 <ehird> . If you don't need help from me in particular, then placing {{helpme}} on your own user-talk page is likely to produce faster results.
23:03:10 <ehird> It's very. Broken up. If you do that.
23:03:22 <ais523> ehird: that's why it's better with a ;
23:03:31 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it's not valid with .
23:03:34 <ehird> therefore it's not valid with ;
23:03:38 <ais523> err, that was never a rule
23:03:54 <ehird> I was always taught that you use ; when an . would work but would be awkward
23:03:56 <ais523> this sentence is in two parts; and the second part starts with a conjunction
23:04:13 <ais523> that particular sentence would be more natural with comma
23:04:20 <ais523> but there are others where semicolon would work better
23:04:34 <ais523> semicolon's somewhere between full stop and comma, grammatically
23:04:48 <ais523> is it defining inclusive or for strings?
23:04:54 <AnMaster> ehird, where in python's docs are these documented
23:05:07 <ehird> AnMaster: http://python.org/doc/2.6/
23:05:08 <Deewiant> Probably the page on which google finds them
23:05:08 <AnMaster> Traceback (most recent call last):
23:05:08 <AnMaster> File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
23:05:08 <AnMaster> NameError: name '__mod__' is not defined
23:05:12 <ehird> searching for ior:
23:05:20 <ehird> function:: ior(a, b) __ior__(a, b) ``a = ior(a, b)`` is equivalent to ``a |= b``.
23:05:36 <ehird> AnMaster: __mod__ isn't a global function
23:05:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what about in the interactive help
23:05:45 <ehird> use the online docs
23:05:55 <ehird> actually, there's no global mod function
23:06:45 <ehird> AnMaster: this code sounds awful
23:06:54 <ehird> i suspect it of being hacked together randomly
23:06:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you loved esotope-bfc yesterday ;P
23:07:06 <ehird> I love the output.
23:07:10 <ehird> Just not the implementation!
23:07:20 <AnMaster> 126 # returns False if it is a no-op. cleanup pass will remove such no-ops.
23:07:20 <AnMaster> 127 def __nonzero__(self): return True
23:07:20 <ais523> presumably it has a good algorithm, written badly
23:07:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's so evil
23:07:40 <ehird> why not have a def nop(self): return True
23:07:40 <ais523> is it another thing to show Python people to demonstrate that really, not all python is necessarily well-written?
23:07:48 <ehird> ais523: they don't claim that
23:07:52 <ais523> ehird: some of them do
23:07:54 <ehird> ais523: they claim that all python is well-readable
23:08:03 <ehird> ais523: which it generally is, in a visual sense
23:08:08 <ehird> due to the indentation requiremen
23:08:14 <ais523> they claim that as there's only one way to write something, all python must be perfect
23:08:22 <ehird> ais523: there's a term for these people
23:08:26 <ehird> they're not specific to python
23:08:29 <ehird> it's called "idiot"
23:08:33 <ais523> one of them even suggested making Python Turing-incomplete in order to correct the problem that there was more than one way to write something
23:08:41 <ehird> are you making shit up?
23:08:47 <ais523> ehird: unfortunately no
23:08:52 <ehird> AnMaster: "do nothing"
23:08:54 <AnMaster> again python's interactive help fail me
23:08:55 <ais523> although I don't think he understood what turing-completeness was
23:08:59 <ehird> I'm tired of answering your questions
23:09:03 <AnMaster> ehird, fix the interactive help!
23:09:05 <ehird> ais523: what did e say in particular?
23:09:09 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT'S NOT WHAT MEANT FOR
23:09:14 <ehird> THERE'S DOCS FOR A REASON!
23:09:17 <ehird> To quote you: "RTFM"
23:09:19 <ais523> it was a long time ago, also most of the people there were drunk and I was tired
23:09:22 <ais523> I can't remember the exact words
23:09:25 <AnMaster> ehird, then what is the interactive help meant for
23:09:40 <ais523> "pass" is a consequence of Python's indentation rules
23:09:42 <ehird> to look up the docstrings of classes and functions.
23:09:51 <ehird> not to teach you about the fscking object model!!!!
23:09:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: help() seems to explain its purpose quite well...
23:10:43 <ehird> i want an lcd that has its off mode as white, not black
23:10:51 <ehird> then you could have the uneyestrain of black with the pretty of white
23:11:29 <Deewiant> "Hm ok"‽ Did you really not read it?
23:12:06 <ais523> what's with all the interrobangs around here recently?
23:12:26 <ais523> a lot more than anywhere else
23:12:26 <ehird> Deewiant: from me yes
23:12:30 <ais523> and a lot more than there used to be
23:12:37 <ehird> this ‽ glyph is ug ly
23:12:39 <ais523> although not many on an absolute scale
23:12:49 <ais523> and agreed with ehird, even though I'm likely seeing a different glyph to him
23:12:49 <ehird> ais523: I got my unicode keyboard shortcuts and I leapt ↗
23:13:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Interrobang.svg ← this is what a proper interrobang should look like
23:13:07 <ehird> (from palatino linotype)
23:13:16 <ais523> the ! bit is longer in mine
23:13:21 <ais523> it clashes with the top of the ?
23:13:23 <ehird> yeah, that's the problem
23:13:26 <ehird> they need to curve it more
23:14:46 <ehird> "this computer costs around 600 euros. I agree with you : this is expensive."
23:14:50 <ehird> $810 is expensive for a computer?
23:15:06 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:15:07 <ais523> well, dollars, maybe no
23:15:10 <ehird> ais523: it's expensive for a budget computer
23:15:24 <ais523> I'd expect to be paying about £400, and that was two years ago
23:15:28 <ais523> nowadays I'd expect to be paying less
23:15:33 <ehird> a decent core 2 duo laptop costs like £500
23:15:50 <ehird> a high-end machine... sky's the limit, but regular is probably about £1,000
23:15:51 <Deewiant> Computers that cost less than 1000 € are cheap
23:16:02 <ehird> I mean — this iMac cost £1,000
23:16:17 -!- coppro has joined.
23:16:19 <ehird> adjust for apple tax
23:17:16 <ehird> oerjan: problem with the linked list idea—getting length is hard
23:17:20 <ehird> since you have to sum up each elem's
23:17:29 <ehird> although for 10KB chunk it probably doesn't matter
23:18:06 <AnMaster> ehird, this is for the slashes interp?
23:18:09 <Deewiant> Just cache the length separately?
23:18:12 <ehird> But, yeah, a really good high-end computer is like £2,000
23:18:17 <ehird> Deewiant: that requires storing the base pointer
23:18:23 <ehird> which would be possible, I grant you
23:18:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm storing a string in allocations of 10KB
23:18:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Cache the length of the whole thing in each node
23:18:45 <ehird> Deewiant: then growing/shrinking becomes a huge pain
23:19:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Cache it in such a way that the only ones up-to-date are the ones you're currently using
23:19:16 <ehird> Deewiant: impossible
23:19:20 <Deewiant> So you don't have to update them all all the time
23:19:27 <ehird> AnMaster: if I do it as one big char array, then I have to realloc every.single.command to keep the memory usage not growing forever. With 10KB blocks, I just free() if i go over a boundary
23:19:44 <ehird> AnMaster: So an infinite loop that doesn't grow will grow memory usage up to 10KB, then shoot down
23:19:58 <ehird> avoids pricy realloc()ing
23:20:11 <ehird> http://forum.modrewrite.com/ ← mod_rewrite is so bloated it has its own forum
23:21:40 <ehird> thue in mod_rewrite
23:22:02 <ehird> grr, it annoys me that the best graphics card that you can buy passively cooled by default is an ATI
23:22:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so a .htaccess with mod_rewrite can hang a server forever
23:22:22 <ehird> I wonder if a nvidia card would work with a replaced cooler
23:22:29 <ehird> AnMaster: with thue it's done as a series of redirects
23:22:34 <ehird> so if you killed the browser, the computation would end
23:23:19 <ehird> the Accelero S1 Rev.2 claims to work with the 9800GTX+ but is that w/ a fan?
23:23:28 <oerjan> ehird: my interpreter ran a BCT program successfully
23:23:33 <AnMaster> ehird, is this olsner in here btw
23:23:39 <ehird> AnMaster: "our", so yes, he used to be.
23:23:47 <ehird> To provide passive cooling for high-end graphic cards, Accelero S1 Rev. 2 is a high performance passive cooler featuring 4 heatpipes connected with extra large surface area. It effectively removes a great deal of heat from the graphic cards keeping the components cool. Thanks to the elegant design, Accelero S1 Rev. 2 outperforms active cooling solutions. Accelero S1 Rev. 2 creates a true industry leading zero noise cooling solution for all enthusiast gam
23:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I said "our olsner"
23:23:59 <ehird> our implies he's one of us
23:24:18 <ais523> ehird: that's marketingspeak for what every passive cooler ever does
23:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't find thue in rewrite, only thue in haskell
23:24:28 <ehird> ais523: but it's passive, is the point
23:24:34 <ehird> and claims support of a nice card
23:24:47 <ehird> YAY!!! It seems it can do it
23:25:28 -!- jix has quit (No route to host).
23:25:57 <Gracenotes> "Did you think you'd be back to Mummy7 by Christmas?"... ah, OCR'd e-books, nothing like 'em...
23:25:57 <ais523> ok, mystery: one of SCO's accountants billed it $1.92 for two month's work
23:26:21 <oerjan> Now for an important question: Given only the characters / and \, what should the BCT interpreter output?
23:26:43 <ais523> actually, I think they might have been lawyers, not accountants
23:26:51 <ais523> the question is, what work is so minor that they'd only bill that much?
23:26:52 <ehird> oerjan: can we have a newline too?
23:26:57 <oerjan> currently it's all interspersed with debugging so i can see what it says
23:26:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:27:11 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, hi. Did you check that music?
23:27:23 <ehird> oerjan: <program unary with />\<tape unary with />\<repeat 4eva>
23:27:27 <Gracenotes> oof, not yet. *checks recently bookmarked links*
23:28:04 <oerjan> ehird: not within my design
23:28:40 <ehird> ahh can't wait for my new pc
23:28:44 <oerjan> more importantly, with this memory squeeze
23:29:04 <Gracenotes> very distinct mood he's trying to create
23:29:18 <oerjan> the BCT page says that for turing completeness, one should output the deleted data bits
23:29:25 <ehird> oerjan: do that then
23:29:28 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, of the C minor symphony, final movement. Afterwards is the final movement of the C sharp minor symphony (the C minor symphony is a rewrite of it. I prefer the original)
23:29:44 * ehird plugs new hardware into psu calculator
23:29:47 <ehird> can't go over 430W
23:29:49 <oerjan> oh well, maybe that's simplest
23:30:03 <Gracenotes> very Vienna-ish, if one can call it that
23:30:18 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, no idea what you mean with that
23:30:40 <Gracenotes> yes, not very clear, given that Vienna has had many different musical eras
23:30:55 <Gracenotes> is "sounds similar to Mozart" better? :P
23:30:58 <olsner> mod_rewrite has recursion limits (that can be configured to be above what's required to complete your program)
23:31:11 <ehird> aah! olsner's here?
23:31:14 <olsner> but it has a very stupid memory allocator so you'll quickly run out of memory on the server :)
23:31:43 <olsner> it essentially doesn't free anything it allocates until it has completed the request
23:31:43 <ehird> hmm... 85% of cpu tdp, 90% system load and no capacitor aging = 330 watts
23:31:58 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, Vienna - Classical period?
23:32:22 <ehird> at 100% load though goes to 440
23:32:33 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, still, he has a lot of different variants in his works.
23:32:44 <ehird> "In my view the card series requires you to have a 500 Watt power supply unit at minimum if you use it in a high-end system, and I think that's barely on the safe side."
23:32:49 <ehird> guess i'll have to get a more beefy psu
23:34:01 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: he seems to use a lot of classical idioms, but in an altered form (usually with them ending up going somewhere unexpected)
23:34:16 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from btw
23:34:33 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ acoustipack and the natural noise dampening of the case, I can afford a few more dBA on the PSU. Especially since the Nexus 430 Value is below audibility
23:34:39 <ehird> and from http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-9800-gtx-512mb-plus-review/3
23:34:40 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:34:44 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, I don't know enough about that kind of stuff to respond to it.
23:34:58 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
23:35:11 <Gracenotes> ah. Myself, I'm just going by what I think I hear... possibly mistaken
23:35:23 <ehird> i'm just happy since i was a bit sad about the 9800GT being the best nvidia passively-cooled-when-bought card you could get
23:35:45 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, well the cover of the cd does mention "unexpectedness" a lot
23:35:50 <ehird> http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/images/AcceleroS1Rev2_pic_300.gif
23:35:53 <ehird> a giant heatsink saves the day
23:36:00 <ehird> it's bigger than my cpu heatsink ^.^
23:36:26 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, and he lived during the classical era. Using these idioms makes perfect sense.
23:36:57 <Gracenotes> right. He seems to be aware of them on a meta level, I guess.
23:37:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it will take two PCI-E slots right?
23:37:11 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.pc-erfahrung.de/fileadmin/Daten/Bilder/vga-luefter-accelero-s1-07.jpg
23:37:22 <ehird> bigger than the card it goes on :)
23:37:35 <AnMaster> ehird, make sure you can fit in other cards as well as it
23:37:36 <ehird> http://media.photobucket.com/image/accelero%20s1%20rev.2/night_wolf_in/DSC00352.jpg
23:37:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't need other cards
23:37:54 <ehird> if I really do, I can get a shitty card to use when I do need to use them
23:38:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but graphics cards are mounted facing downwards
23:38:15 <ehird> so this shouldn't obstruct the slot
23:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, what about the next slot
23:38:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, yes
23:38:45 <ehird> the accelero will be well away from the slot
23:38:55 <ehird> if anything the videocard will block it
23:38:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yea, about three slots away! :P
23:38:58 <ehird> and I can't really help that
23:39:46 <ehird> along with games I'm gonna love doing parallel computation on the GPU
23:41:19 <ehird> Anything massively parallel can go to the GPU.
23:41:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know, having the means will provide the inspiration :-)
23:41:55 <ehird> if I turn out to not do much of it, welp, it's still there for games
23:42:08 <AnMaster> ehird, what about games. Didn't you say linux? The games I can think of on Linux runs just fine on a GeForce 7600 GS
23:42:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I plan to dual-boot at some point.
23:42:42 <ehird> Windows 7, probably.
23:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird, even so. that sounds crazy
23:43:06 <ehird> oklodok: not much, but that's mostly due to using a mac
23:43:18 <ehird> I'm not a huge gamer, but I've wanted to try quite a few games for a while
23:43:18 <oklodok> ehird: i can't imagine you wasting your time on games
23:43:20 <ehird> AnMaster: what sounds crazy/
23:43:34 <oklodok> ehird: okay i can imagine you trying out all games in existance
23:43:37 <ehird> oklodok: I waste my time all the time
23:43:41 <ehird> AnMaster: why's that sound crazy?
23:43:50 <ehird> there's no ext4 drivers for win7
23:44:04 <AnMaster> ehird, overwriting with zero would work
23:44:21 <ehird> that's why I'd run a virus scanner and a firewall and try and limit internetty stuff on the win7 partition
23:44:24 <AnMaster> oh and you could do a virus too
23:44:24 <oklodok> ehird: i can imagine you wasting your time, just not on games, i think of you as more of a channel surfer than an intensive player.
23:44:37 <ehird> oklodok: yes, I am very channel surfy
23:44:44 <ehird> but I've wasted a lot of hours on Worms: Armageddon
23:44:50 <AnMaster> oklodok, what about me and games
23:44:51 <oklodok> well that's an awesome game
23:45:14 <oklodok> AnMaster: i can imagine you playing a few well-chosen games
23:45:16 <ehird> hmm the 9800 gtx+ is still beaten by the Radeon HD 4850 sometimes xD
23:45:20 <ehird> oklodok: like TUX RACER!!
23:45:37 <ehird> using Hardware 3D Rendering(TM) technology
23:45:47 <ehird> requires at least a Pentium III
23:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: 23:45 oklodok: AnMaster: i can imagine you playing a few well-chosen games
23:45:53 <ehird> was what I was responding to
23:46:00 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
23:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: i probably won't be dualbooting with windows w/ a 160GB X25-M though
23:46:26 <ehird> a bit too small for comfort w/ games
23:46:34 <ehird> oklodok: tux raver
23:46:49 <AnMaster> oklodok, nethack, kmines, lbreakout, some stuff in zsnes and mupen64 (I love Zelda games). Oh and I could FlightGear as a simulator, not a game.
23:47:01 <ehird> AnMaster: you gotta have a powerful rig to play nethack
23:47:06 <ehird> that thing makes my hardware squeal
23:47:11 <ehird> esp. in some of the battles
23:47:20 <ehird> totally amazing graphics though
23:47:24 <ehird> AnMaster: enable anti-aliasing
23:47:33 <ehird> everything just smooths ou
23:47:37 <ehird> it's just like the real thing
23:47:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I always set 2x AA in nvidia-settings
23:47:53 <ehird> AnMaster: try overclocking your GPU sometime... nethack will never be the same again
23:48:05 <AnMaster> ehird, nethack doesn't use GPU powers
23:48:20 <ehird> haha, maybe that's what you think— but try higher anti-aliasing settings
23:48:26 <ehird> that thing is taxing
23:48:28 <AnMaster> you can only take irony to a limit before it gets tedious
23:48:29 <oklodok> ehird: i'm pretty sure AnMaster plays nethack in text-mode, that is, he uses somekinda thingy to play it with textual commands and responses instead of the usual graphics.
23:48:32 <ehird> AnMaster: not irony, joke
23:48:40 <ehird> oklodok: you're joking too right :D
23:48:43 <oklodok> like "a approaches from west"
23:49:02 <AnMaster> oklodok, and yes I play it in ASCII art mode. Tried QT mode. Didn't like it.
23:49:06 <ehird> AnMaster: he's joking
23:49:13 <ehird> you don't play it in the ncurses-esque mode
23:49:17 <ehird> you play it in the text adventure mode
23:49:21 <ehird> instead of the "graphical" (console) mode
23:49:30 <ehird> oklodok: sry for ruining it
23:50:11 <AnMaster> I always get lost in text adventures
23:50:17 <AnMaster> I prefer ASCII art like nethack
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23:50:23 <ehird> the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy text adventure is fun
23:50:30 <ehird> it's hard just getting out of the house
23:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: er... an infocom floppy in the 80s
23:50:50 <ehird> AnMaster: there's a Flash version of it
23:50:59 <ehird> basically an interface to the infocom version
23:51:05 <ehird> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game.shtml
23:51:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you could try and download the Z-machine file
23:51:45 <AnMaster> ehird, uhu. What emulator is best
23:51:49 <ehird> it'd be technically illegal, but the BBC have it online in Flash, so it's not as if getting it for free is unintentional
23:52:05 <ehird> AnMaster: not sure about emulators; I'll look it up
23:52:16 <AnMaster> ok I guess I could try them then
23:52:24 <AnMaster> just wondered if you knew some was good
23:52:26 <ehird> http://frotz.sourceforge.net/
23:52:38 <ehird> terminal based, even
23:52:50 <AnMaster> anyway I need to sleep now. Early morning tomorrow
23:53:34 <ehird> the 9800GTX+ runs Crysis at 1920x1200 at 41fps
23:53:36 <ehird> that's pretty good.
00:00:10 <ehird> AnMaster: welcome bac
00:00:12 <AnMaster> radio went out with public message
00:00:28 <ehird> AnMaster: aliens‽‽
00:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, major gas leak in big city
00:00:41 <ehird> AnMaster: of the deadly kind, I assume?
00:01:10 <ehird> i'd interject with something like "that's what you get for being a dirty swede!" but it seems inappropriate
00:01:25 * ehird waits for the BBC to pick it up
00:01:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it cut off in the middle of the news. Right in the middle of a sentence.
00:01:57 <ehird> AnMaster: ... what caused that? The gas?
00:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: must be pretty bad tthen
00:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, "please go indoor and close all windows door and ventilation"
00:02:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Severe, then.
00:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, from some industry there it seems.
00:03:06 * ehird F5 F5 F5 F5 on bbc.co.uk
00:03:09 <ehird> (well okay, Cmd-R)
00:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, there is nothing on the news anywhere about it yet...
00:04:35 <ehird> AnMaster: must be very early report then
00:04:38 <ehird> no time to write anything about it
00:04:46 <ehird> which implies that the leak is very serious
00:06:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you've got me all jumpy now :P
00:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, not that Swedish radio is very nocturnal. One channel shuts down after 01:30 until 06:00, one sends classical music streamed from BBC(!), the remaining two sends the same thing during the night, pop music.
00:09:18 * ehird F5s sr.se too for good measure
00:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: also, wait
00:10:48 <ehird> well, it seems like there wouldn't be many windows open at 2am :-P
00:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, um, I slept with open window since mid-April
00:11:23 <ehird> AnMaster: in sweden?
00:11:24 <oklodok> ehird: even if you're up at 2am?
00:11:27 <ehird> must freeze to death
00:11:43 <ehird> oklodok: well, the windows in this house generally get closed when it gets cold at night
00:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. I have a secret weapon
00:11:46 <oklodok> at least here it's been summer for weeks
00:11:58 <ehird> oklodok: but it never really gets warm in .fi/.se does it :-P
00:12:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, no ventilation in this house, it is too old
00:12:27 <ehird> this is a victorian sort of house I think
00:12:33 <ehird> so half of a victorian house
00:12:35 <ehird> well, it's sort of a flat
00:12:40 <ehird> the bathroom is up a flight of stairs
00:13:00 <oklodok> ehird: i don't know about your standards, but warm enough that i might keep a window open if i ever did
00:13:07 <ehird> oklodok: what celsius?
00:13:24 <ehird> AnMaster: waddya mean be freestanding
00:14:23 <AnMaster> ehird, like http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Villa-nyköping-ostra4.JPG
00:14:35 <ehird> AnMaster: term is "detached house"
00:14:44 <AnMaster> ehird, kay. in Swedish it is "villa"
00:14:48 <ehird> I live in a flat in a terrace, so not nearly as free as that :-P
00:15:13 <ehird> AnMaster: a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_house containing flats.
00:15:34 <ehird> if you're oh so very american
00:15:54 <oklodok> ehird: i don't really know. i saw a 14 a few mornings ago, but it was very early.
00:16:06 <ehird> oklodok: 14C is what it's like here at night :-P
00:16:20 <ehird> 10C atm outside and it's midnight
00:16:39 <fizzie> http://outside.hut.fi/ is the temperature sensor at our university, but it gets direct sunlight, like you can see from the graphs.
00:16:41 <ehird> fizzie: yeah but it's sweden. their celsi-ii is colder.
00:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, Finland is colder than Sweden
00:17:10 <ehird> I meant that fizzie's 10C is colder than my 10C
00:17:24 <ehird> it's a law of finnishology
00:17:28 <oklodok> fizzie: wow that graph is pretty
00:17:40 <ehird> oklodok: it's like a sine wave after a beating
00:17:48 <fizzie> There's that five-years-or-so big graph at http://outside.hut.fi/five.html which might average out the worst sunlight-freak-o-temperatures.
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00:18:06 <fizzie> Since it's 24h average, or so they say.
00:18:32 <fizzie> The radiolab or some other people had a real weather-station readings, but I can never remember the URL for that.
00:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, also, slightly open, not wide open
00:19:14 <AnMaster> http://www.yr.no says it is 8 C here
00:19:47 <fizzie> Oh, there it is. http://radio.tkk.fi/en/weather/ has some real data.
00:19:50 <AnMaster> ehird, rained today, so colder than yesterday
00:20:40 <ehird> still nothing on bbc or that sr.se thing
00:28:26 <AnMaster> "Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund"
00:28:30 <AnMaster> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:28:42 <ehird> AnMaster: /me runs google translate
00:28:51 <ehird> AnMaster: national crisis bad?
00:28:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
00:29:09 <ehird> AnMaster: holy. fucking. shit.
00:29:22 <AnMaster> says it was unclear how large it was
00:29:52 <ehird> Sorry, we are unable to translate the page you requested.
00:29:52 <ehird> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:29:58 <AnMaster> "Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering." <-- emergency service had not requested any help with evacuation at the time of writing. Well I guess that changed since
00:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: could you translate the tagline and the two paragraphs?
00:30:46 <AnMaster> Ammoniakutsläpp i Stenungsund <-- Leak of ammonia in Stenungsund
00:30:56 <AnMaster> Ett utsläpp av ammoniak har skett vid Axo Nobels anläggning i Stenungsund. Räddningstjänsten har i radion gått ut med ett så kallat Viktigt meddelande där allmänheten uppmanas att stanna inne, stänga fönster och ventilation.
00:32:08 <AnMaster> A leak of ammonia has happened at Axo Nobel's plant/facility in Stenungsund. The Emergency service has in radio sent a so called Important message where people are asked to stay indoors, close windows and ventilation
00:32:31 <AnMaster> (couldn't be arsed to try to fix it)
00:32:36 <AnMaster> Det var vid midnatt oklart hur stort utsläppet är.
00:32:36 <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:32:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "a so called Important" :-D
00:32:53 <AnMaster> It is at midnight it unclear how large the leak is.
00:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I think that is an official name "Important message"
00:33:35 <AnMaster> it was with upper case in Swedish
00:33:39 <ehird> since "so called X" means doubtfully-X
00:33:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:33:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like that in Swedish
00:33:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:35:07 <AnMaster> But (according to the police's communication central) the emergency service had not (at midnight) requested any help with barricades or evacuation.
00:35:10 <oklodok> AnMaster: <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:35:44 <oklodok> who cares about some silly catastrophy, let's just play the nick pasting game
00:35:58 <ehird> 00:35 oklodok: AnMaster: <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Men enligt polisens länskommunikationscentral hade inte räddningstjänsten vid midnatt begärt någon hjälp av polisen angående avspärrningar eller eventuell evakuering.
00:36:01 <AnMaster> I was trying to get back on topic
00:36:05 <ehird> AnMaster: gotta agree with him here, this is #esoteric
00:37:21 <oklodok> 5 pages to go, and i'll be done, and my next exam isn't in long times!
00:37:25 <AnMaster> http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article5177106.ab
00:37:36 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll come from a news agency
00:37:40 <ehird> like Reuters or AP
00:38:34 <oklodok> ehird are you still benchmarking bbc response time?
00:38:54 <ehird> oklodok: can I hire you to be funny at me all day?
00:39:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that can't be very pleasant
00:39:20 <ehird> click. wait. click. wait. click. wait. gee, if only I could drag
00:39:46 <oklodok> ehird: i don't think i'd work well paid by hour
00:39:58 <ehird> oklodok: flat monthly rate?
00:40:02 <AnMaster> ehird, lim_(x -> 0) x = google response time
00:40:18 <oklodok> ehird: well i'm all for a steady income :P
00:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: well sure but :P
00:40:29 <AnMaster> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stenungsund&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&split=0&ei=fvERSvCXIcnDsgaFoOSJDg&output=html&zoom=3&zp=OOOOOO
00:40:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't even click!
00:40:55 <ehird> you can't click on the map itself
00:40:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is for mobile phones
00:41:10 <ehird> too wide fram efor that
00:41:30 <oklodok> for every length of time there is a piece of news google caught on before said time had elapsed
00:42:16 <AnMaster> I remember trying without JS before
00:42:19 <ehird> Joke site idea: silentcarreview.com
00:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a good idea
00:42:44 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd have to silence all the other motorists' cars too :-P
00:43:06 <ehird> it won't make much difference if you're the only silent car on the road will it
00:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but make everyone buy one
00:43:35 <ehird> well if we're going down that route make it mandatory that everyone own a kitten
00:43:38 <ehird> morale will improve instantly
00:45:09 <AnMaster> ehird, allergic to them. Can't
00:45:32 <ehird> AnMaster: if I was allergic to kittens I'd never get out of bed
00:45:38 <ehird> i'd just lie there thinking about how worthless my life is
00:46:08 <AnMaster> ehird, allergic to dogs, cats and some sorts of pollen.
00:46:17 <ehird> well dogs is okay i don't like dogs
00:46:21 <ehird> and pollen isn't cute and fluffy
00:46:56 <oklodok> AnMaster: weren't you supposed to sleep?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
00:50:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "situation under control"
00:50:52 <oklodok> AnMaster: hmm no, my thinking cannot explain it
00:51:07 <ehird> AnMaster: boring, i was hoping for like, zombie outbreak
00:51:19 <oklodok> yeah those are always interesting for a while
00:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't be nice. I know people in that area.
00:51:37 <ehird> yes, but, zombies kind of outweigh that
00:51:53 <AnMaster> the effect is just dead people
00:51:59 <ehird> dead people turn into zombies via magic
00:52:03 <fizzie> Phngh. Finally got graded those AI course project-works. Meh, I've been making snide comments about our TCS lab professors who reply to emails in the middle of the night; but now I self sent those grades out at 02:30 am or so.
00:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, they still don't know how much leaked. But the leak is "probably" stopped
00:53:14 <AnMaster> they suspect that the tank that leaked wasn't full
00:53:23 <ehird> AnMaster: how comforting!
00:53:45 <AnMaster> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/artikel_2917959.svd
00:53:59 <ehird> brb learning to read swedish
00:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, copy paste to google translate
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00:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year.
00:54:44 <ehird> - Situation is under control. We do not yet know how much has been leaked. But the weather is favorable, there is no wind that can spread a possible gasmoln. It smells of nothing, which suggests that it is not so much leaked, "said Bengt Carlsson.
00:54:49 <AnMaster> ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max
00:54:49 <ehird> it smells of nothing
00:54:52 <ehird> what a way to detect
00:55:02 <ehird> It is a tank when it is filled capacity of 3 000 cubic meters of ammonia for some reason leaked.
00:55:07 <ehird> 3,000 cubic meters? ouch
00:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, could have been bad yeah
00:55:31 <ehird> the translation obscured the meaning
00:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "It is a tank which when filled has a capacity of 3 000 ..."
00:55:57 <ehird> the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland
00:56:02 <ehird> one of the 3 people living there could have got hurt
00:56:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> the real reason i was scared is that sweden is a province of finland <--- technically wrong
00:56:39 <ehird> no no totally true
00:57:39 <ehird> finland used to be a province of sweden
00:57:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, was it better we had that huge fire just a bit south of here? Last year. <AnMaster> ehird, 8 fire brigades worked on it at max
00:57:48 <ehird> but then time-space warped and Finland-space started
00:57:50 <ehird> AnMaster: "better" how
00:57:55 <AnMaster> wind was blowing the smoke my way
00:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I mentioned it in here then
00:58:23 <ehird> i don't recall last year
01:00:00 <fizzie> He's probably lulling us to a false sense of security; he'll jump out of hiding and attack any minute now.
01:00:07 <oklodok> 3000 cubic meters... could probably be used as a blue whale aquarium
01:00:43 <ehird> oklodok: yes store them in ammonia
01:01:29 <fizzie> 3000 cubic meters is still just a cube with approximately 14.422 meter sides. That's not so big.
01:02:09 <oklodok> it's quite big for an aquarium
01:02:24 <oklodok> in fact i don't think i've seen one as big
01:03:54 <fizzie> The boat-building department here at TKK has a pool of 7865 cubic meters (5.5 meters deep, 11 meters wide, 130 meters long), but that's just plain old water.
01:04:26 <oklodok> how many blue whales is that?
01:04:27 <ehird> fizzie: omg awesome
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01:04:46 <fizzie> They also advertise the "world's largest 40 x 40 meter ice-model-test-pool where you can perform experiments with 70 mm thick model ice", but they don't say how deep that thing is.
01:05:16 <fizzie> http://www.tkk.fi/Units/Ship/General/ and then the "ship laboratory"; it's a silly javascript thing that'll toggle the content open.
01:05:48 <fizzie> The English version doesn't say "world's largest"; only the Finnish one has that. Heh.
01:06:07 <ehird> they don't want to reveal their secrets
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01:06:26 <fizzie> Hopefully they build better ships than web pages.
01:07:40 <fizzie> There's wave-making machinery in both pools (except it's called a "basin", that sounds more officious); I'm *very* certain the students use them as huge-ass swimming pools (don't move the dash again) when no-one's looking.
01:07:59 <ehird> fizzie: huge ass-swimming pools
01:08:18 <ehird> huge ass swimming po-ols
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01:16:02 <oklodok> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:16:13 <ehird> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
01:16:47 <oklodok> i don't have a care in the world
01:19:23 <ehird> oklodok: well because glo-fold
01:25:47 <Sgeo> Metaplace is open beta!
01:26:23 <Sgeo> Pavitra's on MP
01:29:17 <Sgeo> w00t, it's possilble to go into the MP Central waters!
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01:36:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: grep on what
01:36:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's such a real-world operation.
01:38:13 <bsmntbombdood> i remember reading an article detailing how someone used DFAs to grep at like 12 gb/s
01:38:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: grep is singlethreaded
01:38:51 <ehird> how can it be faster w/ ht
01:39:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you said "grep"
01:39:40 <ehird> not "my parallel grep"
01:39:45 <ehird> which skews the results
01:41:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: try fgrep
01:41:21 <ehird> I bet you could hit 12gb/s
01:41:39 <bsmntbombdood> naw, grep uses the same algorithm on fixed strings
01:41:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but with less processing itme
01:41:54 <ehird> due to not having to interpret special chars
01:41:58 <bsmntbombdood> boyer-moore judging from the fact that you get better speed on longer strings
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01:43:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: cat it to a file
01:44:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you have more ram than my first HD size
01:45:35 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: What, you expect it to create entropy?
01:45:42 <ehird> pikhq: it's urandom
01:45:44 <ehird> it's meant to make shit up
01:45:46 <bsmntbombdood> i am running 8 dd's of /dev/urandom and each cpu is only at 35%
01:45:48 <ehird> random is the one that freezes
01:46:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's not going to make entropy.
01:46:19 <pikhq> It's going to pretend to have entropy.
01:47:14 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving...").
01:47:56 <pikhq> Well if you specify "computationally bounded"... So are primes, for some notion of computationaly bounded. :p
01:48:35 <pikhq> Depends on the psuedorandom number generator.
01:49:01 <bsmntbombdood> /dev/urandom is purported to be cryptographically secure
01:50:19 <bsmntbombdood> $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 grep foobarbaz
01:51:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: your rig is amazing. challenged only by my future one ;-)
01:52:02 <pikhq> ehird: God, if I had $10,000 in disposable income.
01:52:12 <ehird> pikhq: not that much! bsmnt's cost $1,7000
01:52:16 <bsmntbombdood> $ time echo ran* ran* ran* ran* ran* ran*| xargs -n 1 -P 8 fgrep foobarbadsfkj09i3209ilksajdfkljaslfjlasfjdlkajsfdlkjalsfjdksajdfkljaslllfkdkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkazffffffffffassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
01:52:27 <pikhq> ehird: Our uberbuild.
01:52:30 <ehird> mine will probably cost about $4,000
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01:59:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right?
02:06:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arl.wustl.edu%2F~sarang%2Fjsac_cameraready.pdf&ei=mAUSSpCGG8OHtgfOoeWACA&usg=AFQjCNGdR0vyT1iYMrr6xRtEeUuwGhjSAg&sig2=tdY3YBP1h0x85tTt4DtNPw
02:07:22 <bsmntbombdood> a measly core i7 is way faster than their specialized hardware
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03:04:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: wc(1) counts shit. Grep does regexps.
03:52:20 <Sgeo> I love Allegiance
03:52:21 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ__4qWLO7E
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06:21:35 <asiekierka> Heh, I had a scoring idea for BF Joust
06:21:57 <asiekierka> draws are 0, wins are +1 and loses are -1
06:22:13 <asiekierka> So for example if a program wins with the bot on 20 tape sizes but loses on one, it has 19 points
06:22:22 <asiekierka> Now, it battles with every program in the list other than itself
06:22:43 <asiekierka> so if there are 10 programs and the program we're talking about is not one of these
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11:39:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: omg Darths and Droids
11:42:47 <fizzie> It *so* has not been ten years. Soon you'll be telling me it's been over ten years since the Matrix.
11:43:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, when was Matrix released
11:43:42 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's been ten years according to our clocks. the simulation of course runs much faster.
11:43:48 <oerjan> probably a couple hours
11:44:00 <fizzie> March 1999, apparently.
11:44:23 <AnMaster> then it is 10 years + some months I guess.
11:45:32 <fizzie> 1984; I had just managed to be born the year before.
11:46:59 <fizzie> So even Terminator 2 can now drink alcoholic beverages. (Well, depending on the local age limits and so on; it's 18 around here.)
11:47:10 <AnMaster> I never seen Terminator, only Terminator 2
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13:20:27 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
13:22:23 * oerjan realizes debugging in the inner loop may not exactly help performance
13:23:01 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
13:23:19 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
13:23:19 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
13:23:25 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
13:23:28 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
13:23:40 <fizzie> Ooh, now that !show + DCC thing is *fancy*.
13:23:59 <fizzie> fungot: Silly bot, you don't even know how to do *anything* with DCC.
13:24:00 <fungot> fizzie: the chip select which joystick port. this port, there are characters waiting in the table that starts at the sprite in the individual terms by performing the indicated memory location. when you turn it back on.
13:24:06 <oerjan> !slashes /#/1,2,3/test #
13:29:04 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
13:30:44 <oerjan> ok that didn't really help any
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16:10:39 <AnMaster> is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+]
16:10:58 <AnMaster> it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]
16:11:32 <AnMaster> (this is because the inner loop is trivially provable to be infinite and will always run (also trivial to prove)
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16:14:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "current cell is same before and after loop"
16:14:49 <AnMaster> if it is you can do all sorts of optimisations in BF that you can't otherwise
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16:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, is [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+] balanced
16:16:40 <AnMaster> ais523, but it is equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]!
16:16:49 <ais523> I meant, balanced square brackets
16:17:17 <ais523> and given that the outer loop never finishes
16:17:23 <ais523> it doesn't matter whether that loop's balanced or not
16:17:40 <ais523> p++; while(1); p--; leaves p the same
16:17:43 <ais523> p++; while(1); doesn't
16:17:45 <AnMaster> meh have to rewrite part of the calculator
16:18:37 <AnMaster> this in theory opens up lots of ways to optimise
16:18:45 <psygnisfive> isnt there some sort of compiler you could write for this? :P
16:19:05 <AnMaster> since you know that after that outer loop anything done in it will be void.
16:19:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I'm writing a BF compiler...
16:19:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well right now I'm writing on irc
16:19:57 <AnMaster> and writing code at the same time
16:20:09 <AnMaster> (single core multi tasking style)
16:20:20 <psygnisfive> im going to go shower, then run off. bye. :P
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17:00:23 <ehird> 00:52 bsmntbombdood: the 6 seconds of system time worries me
17:00:23 <ehird> 00:53 bsmntbombdood: i'm thinking i can do better
17:00:24 <ehird> coppro has joined (n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro)
17:00:26 <ehird> 00:59 pikhq: bsmntbombdood: Uh, you do realise that file access consists of system time, right?
17:00:28 <ehird> 00:59 bsmntbombdood: yes
17:00:30 <ehird> align the ssd bitch
17:00:59 <pikhq> ehird: He was feeding from /dev/urandom.
17:01:27 <ehird> pikhq: whaddya think about his grep being faster w/ HT?
17:01:48 <pikhq> Very odd, considering that grep is single-threaded.
17:02:15 <ais523> a multithreaded grep isn't theoretically impossible
17:02:16 <ehird> pikhq: no, he ran multiple greps
17:02:25 <ehird> and they went twice as fast
17:02:29 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but it *is* single-threaded right now.
17:02:31 <ais523> GregorR: GregorR-L: there?
17:02:36 <ehird> Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum
17:02:40 <ehird> HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?
17:02:42 <pikhq> ehird: I'd imagine that grep doesn't touch the cache much.
17:03:03 <pikhq> A better test would be, say, compilation.
17:03:16 <ehird> i want to give whoever sent gvr sicp $1m
17:03:34 <ais523> ehird: you don't have $1m
17:03:41 <ehird> ais523: creator of python
17:03:45 <pikhq> ais523: Guido van Rossum.
17:03:55 <ais523> it's ehird's answer that's more useful to me
17:03:56 <ehird> and Benevolent Functional-Programming-Ignorant Dictator for Life
17:04:08 <ehird> obviously some /prog/ger sent him SICP
17:04:09 <pikhq> ehird: He's better than some.
17:04:12 <ais523> well, python has lambda...
17:04:32 <ais523> that's enough to implement functional programming from first principles, if you really want to
17:04:36 <ehird> "hur hur tail calls = tail recursion and can always be replaced trivially with a while loop what do you mean tailcalling another function"
17:04:43 <ehird> "I am dropping reduce() from the base language because IT HURTS MY BRAIN"
17:04:50 <ehird> "I HAVE TO TURN IT INTO A FOR LOOP this is obviously reduce's f ault"
17:05:00 <ehird> "also don't use map() it gives you rabies"
17:05:06 <ehird> pikhq: reduce = fold, he removed it from py3k
17:05:12 <ehird> because he can only think imperatively, apparently
17:05:15 <pikhq> Even *Tcl* does tail call recursion these days.
17:05:23 <ais523> is the name reduce or fold more common?
17:05:25 <ehird> does it do general tail call optimization?
17:05:30 <ehird> that's more useful than tail recursion
17:05:31 <ais523> and Perl has an /operator/ for tail call optimisation
17:05:41 <ehird> ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use
17:05:44 <ais523> so you have to do it by hand, but it supports TCO too
17:05:49 <pikhq> (granted, you do it via "tailcall" instead of calling your function, but that's because they're just a tiny bit lazy)
17:05:50 <ehird> scheme has fold, fold-right in SRFI-1
17:05:53 <ehird> haskell is even more specific
17:05:57 <ehird> foldl, foldr, foldl1
17:06:03 <pikhq> ais523: They've got a proc to optimise it in Tcl 8.6.
17:06:24 <pikhq> In current Tcl, you just have to rely on the stack not growing too large.
17:06:24 <pikhq> Or implement it yourself.
17:06:24 * ais523 vaguely wonders if gcc-bf does tail-call optimisation
17:06:31 <ais523> it has a stack, after all
17:06:44 <ais523> my guess is it's probably capable of using gcc's built-in TCO
17:06:48 <pikhq> (Tcl is rather ridiculously modifiable, after all)
17:06:56 <ehird> anyway, what I'm saying is, some hero from /prog/ gave gvr sicp as a joke.
17:07:07 <pikhq> ehird: Which is totally awesome.
17:07:29 <ehird> I only hope they included the /prog/snake. Live.
17:08:04 <ais523> anyway: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090518204959409
17:08:07 <pikhq> Hmm. Funny thing is, the only Python programmer I know well is accused of programming like Python's a Lisp...
17:08:19 <ais523> I mention Alpha's terms of use on Groklaw, and then this happens
17:08:25 <ais523> and I have no idea whether or not it's coincidence
17:09:05 <ehird> haha, in the /r/programming/ comments on the link to the tweet people are trying to understand it :-)
17:09:22 <ehird> "I think it can be a reference to MIT's changes in curriculum rather than the discussion on tail recursion."
17:10:47 <ehird> it's totally a /prog/ger trolling him.
17:11:00 <ais523> SICP's a nice high-brow way to troll someone
17:11:07 <ais523> although I've never actually read it
17:11:22 <ais523> not now because I have unrelated exams
17:11:32 <ehird> ais523: if you can avoid testing the Scheme code on 5 different broken implementations to check it's portable, then yes
17:11:46 <ehird> I'd recommend MIT Scheme to go through with it, since it's a very traditionalist R5RS sort of implementation.
17:11:55 <ais523> what's the exact subject of the book?
17:12:02 <ehird> ais523: Achieving satori.
17:12:12 <ais523> I already know quite a bit of functional programming, although I'm self-taught in it
17:12:12 <ehird> But, uh, it's about the structure and interpretation of computer programs.
17:12:31 <ehird> It's about the fundamental interactions between interpreters, compilers, languages, metacircular things, homoiconicism, Scheme, ...
17:13:19 <ehird> ais523: But I'm not sure SICP can be called high-brow in the context of /prog/
17:13:56 <ehird> ais523: Wikipedia sums it up well:
17:14:04 <ehird> [[Using a dialect of the Lisp programming language known as Scheme, the book explains core computer science concepts, including abstraction, recursion, interpreters and metalinguistic abstraction, and teaches modular programming.
17:14:07 <ehird> The program also introduces a practical implementation of the register machine concept, defining and developing an assembler for such a construct, which is used as a virtual machine for the implementation of interpreters and compilers in the book, and as a testbed for illustrating the implementation and effect of modifications to the evaluation mechanism. Working Scheme systems based on the design described in this book are quite common student projects.
17:14:21 <ehird> It's a very academic sort of book.
17:15:03 <ais523> hmm... I wonder if it's like UNIX
17:15:15 <ais523> in that it is possible to make something better than UNIX, but you'll almost certainly fail unless you understand UNIX first
17:15:28 <ehird> I think SICP is pretty much perfect.
17:15:37 <ehird> mit's website is really pretty: http://mit.edu/
17:15:40 <ais523> I mean, in its descriptions of how to make an interpreter
17:15:53 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't really describe that
17:15:59 <ais523> ugh, that picture in the middle is really glaring on the eyes
17:16:01 <ehird> it describes the theory of interpreters
17:16:01 <ehird> it's just executable theory
17:16:10 <ehird> your brightness is set too high
17:16:22 <ais523> it handles black on white just fine, though
17:16:26 <ais523> and I have terminals set to grey on black
17:16:33 <ehird> i just like the logo and lowercase title, pretty much :P
17:16:34 <ais523> so seeing random white-on-black things overglares
17:16:48 <ehird> ais523: i said yesterday that I want an lcd whose off state is white, not black
17:16:56 <ehird> so that white would be soft on the eyes, not black
17:17:23 <ais523> there are non-LCD screen architectures which manage that, but unfortunately they're impractical atm due to pixels taking almost a second to change colour
17:17:31 <ais523> when that's fixed, though, you may have your wish
17:17:46 <ehird> ais523: but I like LCDs!
17:17:55 <ais523> what about them do you like?
17:17:56 <ehird> also, I wonder if OLED can do it?
17:18:02 <ehird> they're very sharp
17:18:07 <ehird> pixels are very defined, not blurry
17:18:21 <ehird> unlike, say, plasma displays, from what I know
17:18:47 <ehird> also, I like subpixel rendering
17:18:59 <ehird> I saw a picture where a bunch of text moved 1/3 of a pixel left each line
17:19:11 <ehird> by using subpixel rendering
17:19:43 <ehird> ais523: so what technologies are you talking about?
17:19:56 <ais523> those flexible paper-based ones
17:20:05 <ehird> ais523: those aren't bright enough
17:20:10 <ehird> and don't have good enough colour
17:20:35 <ais523> no, the colour's physically inside the piece of paper
17:20:49 <ehird> wait, which displays are we talking about here?
17:20:52 <ehird> Amazon Kindle-style?
17:21:06 <ehird> they use real paper?
17:21:08 <ais523> they're about good enough to use for something like the Kindle atm
17:21:19 <ais523> and I'm not quite sure if it's chemically the same as paper
17:21:24 <ais523> but it has similar physical properties
17:21:41 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmwell.
17:21:53 <ehird> They use "organic" light.
17:22:05 <ehird> Light that's fairly traded and not using chemicals, I suppose :-P
17:22:22 <ais523> ehird: they use organic chemicals, rather than inorganic chemicals
17:22:53 <ais523> where organic = based around carbon chains
17:23:22 <ehird> The Optimus Maximus keyboard developed by the Art. Lebedev Studio and released early 2008 uses 113 48×48-pixel OLEDs (10.1×10.1 mm) for its keys.
17:23:32 <ehird> too bad it's a shit keyboard
17:23:44 <ais523> it seems engineered to be as expensive as possible
17:23:46 <ais523> rather than actually useful
17:23:48 <ehird> who looks at their keys, anyway?
17:24:04 <ais523> I do on occasion to hit the home row
17:24:13 <ais523> it's faster than feeling for it if I took my hands off the keyboard for any reason
17:24:18 <ehird> my style is too weird for things like home rows :-)
17:24:19 <ais523> and I am now, because you got me thinking about it...
17:24:27 <ehird> ais523: on a similar note, you're breathing
17:24:31 <ais523> but my fingers need to start somewhere
17:24:42 <ais523> ehird: blinking doesn't work on me, although the breathing thing does
17:25:06 <ehird> ais523: also, your heart is beating.
17:25:17 <ais523> ehird: I'm incapable of making my heart beat manually
17:25:25 <ehird> well that's your problem!
17:25:25 <ais523> so it'll just continue on auto, as always
17:27:57 <ais523> ehird: do you have your heart on manual?
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17:28:09 <ehird> ais523: no, I'm fairly sure that would be an emergency
17:28:16 <ehird> can _anyone_ do that?
17:28:20 <ais523> so why is it a problem if I don't?
17:28:34 <ehird> because I told you it's beating so it's stopped now!
17:28:36 <ais523> and although it's not quite on manual, some people have learnt to be able to control the speed with mental effort
17:28:38 <ehird> if it's still beating, well, quantum immortality.
17:29:02 <ais523> including stopping it for a few seconds
17:29:12 <ehird> that's one skill I'm happy not to have
17:29:20 <ais523> I'm not sure how useful that is, but presumably there's some reason they learnt it
17:29:24 <ais523> that's more important than party tricks
17:32:59 <ais523> ehird: everyone has some voluntary control over their blood flow
17:33:12 <ehird> I don't that I'm aware of
17:33:16 <ais523> because the heart doesn't push hard enough in order to get the blood all the way back up your legs
17:33:33 <ais523> therefore, you have to keep moving your legs or feet (although only a few centimeters every few minutes is enough)
17:33:37 <ais523> to stop all the blood getting stuck there
17:33:46 <ais523> people occasionally faint from standing too still as a result
17:34:08 <ehird> ais523: that's not what I'd call voluntary
17:34:10 <ehird> that's a side-effect
17:34:25 <ehird> it's sort of like saying putting your head in a paper bag is a way to voluntarily stop breathing
17:35:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> Somebody mailed me a copy of SICP. Now what would they mean by that...? —Guido van Rossum
17:35:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> HAVE YOU READ YOUR SICP TODAY?
17:37:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: reduce is what the scripting langs use, fold is what the academic languages use <-- which category do you put erlang in.
17:37:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know erlang
17:37:59 <ais523> AnMaster: does it use reduce or fold?
17:38:07 <ais523> also, I suspect it counts as academic, given its history
17:38:12 <ais523> although company-academic, not university-academic
17:38:59 <ehird> ais523: yes, it's "company research"
17:39:08 <ehird> rather than "university department of language research"
17:40:34 <ais523> I think we're all agreeing, that's nice to see
17:40:50 <AnMaster> heh I found a bug in this wireless telephone.
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17:41:14 <AnMaster> After you held down the "end call" button for 10 seconds it goes into a "mode" where every button you press cause the screen backlighting to flicker and an odd short noise to be emitted. Loudly.
17:41:14 <ehird> ais523: technically I think that means we died and went to heaven
17:41:24 <AnMaster> Like a mix between beep and static noise
17:41:35 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, that's probably a feature to stop you redialing after an argument, or something. I bet a marketroid came up with it. :-P
17:41:38 <AnMaster> only way to make it exit the mode is take out the batteries and reinsert them
17:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "end call" not "begin call"
17:42:08 <ais523> ehird: it does sound like the definition of some features I've heard, but they wouldn't do it like that
17:42:19 <AnMaster> I can't see it being a "feature"...
17:42:22 <ehird> 17:40 Ami: Antibiotic culture charged with failure to comply with the anticivic reportioning and reclamation decrees.
17:42:23 <ehird> 17:41 Ami: Jevanic polysyndicates post-charged for post-modern pseudosymbolism and monoreference.
17:42:24 <ehird> 17:41 Ami: Citizens, reminder. Inaction is conspiracy. Report counterbehaviour to your nearest stabilization delegate or workforce intake hub for full ration reward.
17:42:27 <ehird> ↑ this is basically what Sine is like all the time. or rather not, but it feels like it sometimes
17:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I was joking
17:42:32 <ais523> many cars, for instance, have a feature that if you hold down the lock button on the keys for long enough it sets the alarm off as loud as it can and there's no way to stop it for several minutes
17:42:37 <ais523> so you can use your car as a sort of rape alarm
17:42:42 <ais523> which is a bit ridiculous
17:42:50 <ehird> three words I never thought I'd see consecutively
17:43:18 <ais523> ehird: I'm trying to figure out what Ami is saying there, but failing
17:43:33 <ehird> ais523: Ami is a bot, although I think those lines are either from a preset list, or entered manually by an operator
17:43:41 <ehird> instead of, say, a markov chain
17:43:42 <ais523> although the third line reminds me a bit of Paranoia XP
17:43:46 <ehird> that's the general
17:43:55 <ehird> 16:59 Cyclic bulletin file is missing.
17:43:55 <ehird> 16:59 Civic presence at 11 opt-ins and 16 opt-outs on 3 zoning enforcercement spars.
17:43:56 <ehird> 16:59 1 stabilization delegate(s) in position.
17:43:58 <ehird> 16:59 19 biotic cultures
17:44:01 <ehird> 16:59 Controlling therapy for 5 civic opt-ins with 1 zoning enforcement spars.
17:44:02 <ehird> 16:59 Local civic biomass: 5 Max: 9
17:44:04 <ehird> 16:59 Civic mass: 27 Max: 30
17:44:06 <ehird> from the connection process
17:44:13 <ais523> it could be a computer game, I suppose
17:44:16 <ais523> it isn't, but it could be
17:44:18 <ehird> although most of the time Ami just hands out awards for having been the last person to said something for ages
17:44:21 <AnMaster> I found a test mode on a synth recently. It displayed TEST on the LCD. Then it played all tones, did a stepless "gliding" of a pure tone from ~40 Hz to well out of hearing range. After that it tested all LED segments on the display one by one. Then it shut down.
17:44:35 <AnMaster> how to trigger it: Hold the setting button down while you powered it on
17:44:48 <ehird> i've always wanted a speaker that I could play tunes out of the range of hearing on
17:45:01 <ehird> at least they couldn't be discordant
17:45:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? I tested range with a microphone
17:45:26 <AnMaster> and it registered tones long after I didn't hear anything
17:48:02 <ehird> * TaskManager will be replaced by TaskFreak!, dotProject and Trac
17:48:03 <ehird> * DocManager will be replaced by MediaWiki and Trac (wiki).
17:48:05 <ehird> * Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB.
17:48:07 <ehird> * Diary and Notes will be replaced by WordPress.
17:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: well, SF are removing the awful forums, but replacing them with ... phpBB.
17:48:22 <ehird> they moved into 2000!
17:48:31 <ais523> phpBB is excellent feature-wise, but truly awful code-wise
17:48:42 <AnMaster> they will remove the bug tracker for any projects using it?
17:48:45 <ehird> ais523: the features are mostly useless bloat
17:48:46 <AnMaster> or is taskmanager something else
17:48:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "tickets"
17:48:55 <ehird> so bug tracker will disappear
17:49:04 <ais523> and tbh, just replacing the whole thing with trac would probably be an improvement
17:49:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and any projects using it? What will happen then
17:49:09 <ais523> even though it doesn't have a forum
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17:49:26 <ehird> ais523: moving to trac being an improvement is a sign of a truly awful situation :)
17:49:47 <ais523> trac isn't bad, it's just bland
17:49:55 <ais523> it's good enough, but not much better
17:50:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't know that
17:50:03 <ehird> I dunno, I'm not a fan of its UI and general concept-y stuff.
17:50:07 <ehird> It's very mediocre.
17:50:12 <ais523> ehird: mediocre is a good word
17:50:19 <ais523> but then, I don't consider mediocre to be bad
17:50:22 <ehird> ais523: it's perfectly cromulent
17:50:44 <ehird> ais523: and if you think that's not actually a real real word, wiktionary lists it under "English": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cromulent
17:51:01 <ais523> cromulent is a real word
17:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Cromulent.
17:51:17 <AnMaster> aspell doesn't think it exists. Must be pretty rare
17:51:26 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a neologism, but one that caught on
17:51:26 <ehird> Wiktionary confirms it.
17:51:30 <ehird> It's like Netcraft
17:51:30 <ais523> it means roughly "makes sense"
17:51:38 <ehird> Principal Skinner: He's embiggened that role with his cromulent performance.
17:51:40 <ais523> ehird: that Wiktionary article has a big "do not trust this" box at the top
17:51:41 <ehird> ais523: nope, it means "fine"
17:51:51 <ehird> also, I'm selectively blind.
17:51:54 <ais523> ehird: well, as a neologism, I wouldn't expect it to have a consistent meaning
17:52:05 <ehird> ais523: in the same episode that coined it?
17:52:10 <ehird> "it's a perfectly fine word" works too
17:52:18 <ais523> well, as in "legitimate"
17:52:30 <ehird> perfectly legitimate performance?
17:52:34 <ehird> that doesn't really imply "good"
17:52:39 <ais523> I suppose you could translate "cromulent" to "there's nothing wrong with it"
17:52:46 <ais523> the implication to me is not "good", but "acceptable"
17:52:56 <ehird> I think it's like a weak "good"
17:53:03 <ehird> if you embiggen a role, obviously you did quite well
17:53:18 <ehird> btw, reality check: we're arguing about the definition of a word coined on The Simpsons
17:56:05 <ehird> Deewiant: link to that list of video cards ordered by awesome?
17:57:04 <ehird> Deewiant: it lists the GeForce 9800GTX+ as below the 4770, but it's actually competitive-and-sometimes-better with the 4850
17:57:06 <Deewiant> The links that say "nopeusjärjestys" ("awesome order") are the ones you want
17:57:27 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, they're in the same category
17:57:33 <Deewiant> So they're clearly competitive
17:57:43 <ehird> but the 4770 is a lot worse than both the 4850 and the 9800GTX+ from what I've seen
17:57:52 <Deewiant> The ???? means he doesn't know whether the 4770 is better or worse than the 4850
17:58:05 <ehird> Deewiant: wait, does it really translate as awesome order?
17:58:08 <Deewiant> And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse
17:58:24 <ehird> 17:58 Deewiant: And the space between 4770 and 9800 means he thinks the 9800 is a bit worse ← ati fan? :p
17:58:45 <Deewiant> ehird: ------ is the only "true" separator
17:58:52 <Deewiant> Everything else is kinda variable
17:58:56 <ais523> Deewiant: no, wrong number of -s
17:59:03 <ais523> or -- for a sig separator
17:59:24 <ais523> they should have used 4
18:00:29 <ehird> Deewiant: It lists the 9800 GTX+ one category below the 8800 GTX. What I've read suggests the opposite.
18:00:42 <ais523> Deewiant: because 4 is standard!
18:01:20 <Deewiant> ehird: The list is mostly about the hardware used
18:01:23 <pikhq> The Alex Smith standard.
18:01:46 <Deewiant> I.e. if one has more MHz than another but is otherwise identical it'll be higher, regardless of what tests say
18:01:53 <ehird> Deewiant: ... but the 9800 GTX+ is a G92 and the 8800 GTX is a G90.
18:01:56 <Deewiant> (Although in that case I'd be surprised if tests said it should be the other way)
18:02:00 <ehird> One came out last year, the other in late 2006.
18:02:09 <ehird> I'm incredibly surprised that it would be considered better by any measure.
18:03:22 <Deewiant> It seems that the 8800 GTX has 86.4 GB/s bandwidth whereas the 9800 GTX+ has 70.4
18:03:43 <Deewiant> Other than that, the latter is indeed advertised as better.
18:04:18 <Deewiant> Based on a quick browse of nvidia.com, anyway
18:04:21 <ais523> I'm amused that people can get so involved in high-ending their computers
18:04:33 <ehird> ais523: this is mid-range
18:04:33 <ais523> the graphics card on here's an Intel 915
18:04:39 <ais523> which isn't even powerful enough to run Vista, really
18:04:46 <ais523> and which I suspect is obsolete nowadays
18:04:49 <ehird> and I want to play certain games, certain games that a lesser card would give me bad FPS on; I have researched this :-P
18:05:16 <ehird> but god I hate the naming systems
18:05:29 <ehird> 9800 GTX+ < 8800 GTX, yes, a higher number and a + means it's worse!
18:05:31 <ais523> agreed, graphics card naming is almost impossible to fathom
18:05:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders if AnMaster even has a 3D graphics card
18:05:56 <ehird> 4770? that's better than the 4830! why? because of the technology used inside, not the actual market, duh!
18:06:02 <ehird> ais523: he has some GeForce 7780 or something
18:06:04 <Deewiant> Both ATI and nVidia have a 9600 GT, at least
18:06:11 <ehird> Deewiant: they do?
18:06:16 <Deewiant> ATI's is some two-three years old
18:06:29 <Deewiant> Actually, older than that, I think
18:06:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:06:31 <pikhq> ais523: And CPU naming is getting crazy, too.
18:06:38 <pikhq> I blame AMD for purchasing ATi.
18:06:39 <ais523> pikhq: well, it used to work on IC names
18:06:44 <ehird> now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right?
18:06:45 <ehird> noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
18:06:46 <ais523> which also don't make a whole lot of sense, normally
18:06:54 <ais523> as they were originally designed just to be unique, not ordered
18:07:35 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm googling, everyone's saying the 8800 GTX is good but not as good as the 9800 GTX, let alone the 9800 GTX+
18:07:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> now, if 8800 is better than 9800, you'd expect 7600 to be even better right? <-- In that case my old GeForce 3 Ti 200 would be AWESOME
18:07:49 <AnMaster> sadly it is no longer functional
18:07:52 <ehird> AnMaster: shit man, Voodoo cards!
18:07:54 <AnMaster> which is why I changed to this card I have
18:08:06 <ehird> anyone remember games installing an extra menu item for Glide?
18:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Glide? I remember seeing something about Glide in mupen64... but that is all
18:08:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Glide is the 3dfx Voodoo cards' hardware-based implementation of some OpenGL calls
18:09:31 <ais523> theory: someone should write a generic graphics card
18:09:41 <ais523> which automatically optimises graphicsy stuff
18:09:53 <ais523> so you can use pure-software implementations of the renderer, and it runs really fast anyway
18:09:59 <ais523> that way it's future-proof to standards improvements
18:10:01 <ehird> ais523: err, graphics cards ARE generic
18:10:08 <ais523> ehird: I mean, even more than that
18:10:10 <ehird> there's a reason they're called -PUs
18:12:09 <ehird> Deewiant: http://i7.techpowerup.com/reviews/Zotac/GeForce_9800_GTX_Plus_Amp_Edition/images/crysis_1920_1200.gif
18:12:14 <ehird> 9800 GTX+ is 22.6 FPS
18:12:35 <ehird> Hey, it has about 200MB more memory with which to be at the same FPS, though.
18:13:22 <ais523> hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible?
18:13:35 <ais523> DNA Maze runs at 20 FPS, for instance, even if the hardware is capable of more
18:13:48 <ais523> which it is, considering how simple the graphics are
18:14:41 <Deewiant> Most games don't have FPS limiters.
18:15:17 <ais523> well, there's nothing animated in DNA Maze
18:15:18 <pikhq> Personally, I'm in favor of limiting FPS to the monitor's refresh rate.
18:15:28 <pikhq> Updating in the middle of a refresh just looks like shit.
18:15:30 <ais523> nothing changes faster than once every 5ms
18:15:37 <Deewiant> pikhq: Which means what, exactly, on LCDs
18:15:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: LCDs still have a 'refresh rate'.
18:15:59 <ais523> so limiting to 20 FPS means that updates can happen exactly when they need to
18:16:02 <ais523> rather than waiting until the next frame
18:16:09 <pikhq> They can only update the LCD so often.
18:16:48 * pikhq notes that FPS might be a better unit than hertz for this purpose, but alas, LCDs themselves are still statted in Hz refresh rate.
18:17:49 <Deewiant> That's 60 Hz for just about all LCDs, isn't it
18:18:33 <pikhq> Though that is the norm.
18:18:39 <oerjan> 08:10:39 <AnMaster> is this BF loop balanced or not: [>[-]+++[>++>++<<],++.<+]
18:18:46 <oerjan> 08:10:58 <AnMaster> it is also equal to [>[-]+++[>++>++<<]]
18:19:16 <oerjan> i'd say the first is clearly balanced, and the second is then essentially balanced
18:19:45 <oerjan> the second could be phrased as: a loop that never finishes is balanced for most purposes
18:20:19 <ais523> it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway
18:20:31 <oerjan> the first is syntactically balanced
18:20:31 <ais523> if you get past the loop, the tape pointer didn't move
18:20:53 <oerjan> the second is logically balanced if you define that as "ends up in the same place _if_ it finishes"
18:21:05 <ais523> which is a good definition
18:22:11 <pikhq> Especially for optimisation purposes.
18:22:14 <oerjan> btw the second relies on cell size being even :D
18:22:46 <oerjan> there is nothing that says every bf variant _needs_ to use a power of 2 >:)
18:23:10 <ais523> presumably this one does, though
18:25:29 <oerjan> i vaguely recall redcode uses a prime, at least for memory size, maybe FukYourBrane could use the same
18:26:11 <ais523> oerjan: FukYorBrane has a prime number of possibilities for each tape element, I think
18:26:22 <ais523> whereas BF Joust uses 256, partially because it needs to be even
18:26:33 <oerjan> (as i recall, because this prevents you avoiding your own code just by placement with a fixed step scan)
18:26:54 <ais523> wait, no, redcode has a power of 2 for memory size
18:27:07 <ais523> it's round but not a power of 2
18:27:59 <oerjan> if it were a multiple of 256, say, you could just move a little bit off your code, and then move right 256, kill & destroy, repeat
18:28:34 <oerjan> and you would only hit enemies
18:28:44 <ais523> oerjan: that's a common tactic
18:28:47 <ais523> but using small numbers like 4
18:28:51 <ais523> rather than large numbers like 256
18:28:57 <ais523> 256 is likely to miss your enemies too
18:29:01 <oerjan> yeah i just realized that
18:29:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, have you noticed google maps work without js?
18:29:16 <AnMaster> not sure if you were here when it was discussed
18:29:36 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's balanced for the purpose of optimising, anyway <-- not exactly. It is unbalanced for some optimisations
18:29:54 <AnMaster> some of those working inside the loop
18:30:02 <ehird> 18:13 ais523: hmm... does crysis automatically try to run at the fastest FPS possible?
18:30:13 <ehird> but most games have vsync (= limit to my LCD's fps)
18:30:56 <pikhq> oerjan: The second doesn't rely on cell size being even, assuming cells wrap.
18:30:59 <oerjan> ok maybe they decided that was fun and made it a reason for _not_ using a prime
18:31:05 <pikhq> It relies on cell size being *greater than 2*.
18:31:14 <pikhq> Erm. Greater than 3.
18:31:25 <oerjan> pikhq: by cell size i mean number of possible values, not bits
18:31:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:31:47 <oerjan> if it's odd and wrapping, then that _will_ eventually reach 0 again
18:32:03 <asiekierka> did anyone write their own BF Joust stuff
18:32:03 <pikhq> oerjan: [>++>++<<]
18:32:06 <AnMaster> <oerjan> btw the second relies on cell size being even :D <-- where does it do that?
18:32:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, index_diff = unchanged
18:32:28 <pikhq> It doesn't do anything to the cell that's being tested.
18:33:14 <pikhq> The cell values needs to not be 3 for it to run.
18:33:17 -!- Corun has joined.
18:33:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:33:22 <oerjan> thought it did like [++>++<]
18:33:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:33:31 <ehird> "8800 GTX XXX Edition"
18:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:33:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that one I can't yet detect as infinite, haven't implemented that type of optimisation of it yet.
18:33:58 * oerjan swats some glory -----###
18:34:04 <ehird> XCorp 8800 GTX XXXXX Xdition
18:34:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see some code for it in esotope-bfc, but it messes up my head trying to work it out
18:35:00 <ehird> it's just greatest common divisor
18:35:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually that one _isn't_ infinite for all initial values, regardless
18:35:15 <ehird> Everyone should know GCD
18:35:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/6pRr7k45.html
18:35:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have context: I know the index cell is a constant already
18:35:50 <AnMaster> the constant propagation pass told me
18:36:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how gcd is defined
18:37:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to remove the stuff after the infinite loop above.
18:37:50 <asiekierka> You know, I wnnt to make a Boolf**k machine
18:38:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: that paste also requires you to know the Euclidean algorithm with coefficients
18:38:36 <oerjan> (for let u * m + v * w = gcd(m,w))
18:38:53 <oerjan> *extended Euclidean algorithm
18:39:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not familiar with "extended gcd"
18:39:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not the gcd that is extended
18:39:43 <oerjan> it's the algorithm for finding it that is extended so you get the other coefficients in that equation
18:40:29 <oerjan> which is very useful for solving linear integer equations
18:40:55 * ehird compares the 8800 Ultra w/ the 9800 GTX+
18:41:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Serial line.
18:41:36 <pikhq> Assuming it's on an FPGA.
18:41:51 <ehird> The worst thing about picking a graphics card is that gamers don't know the meaning of grammar.
18:41:57 <ehird> "9800GTX+ is faster than 8800 Ultra"←kay
18:42:18 <ehird> AnMaster: that was a separate thing
18:42:23 <asiekierka> pikhq: It's using 7400 series and the like
18:42:27 <ehird> two different lines
18:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to add some "the" though
18:42:47 <asiekierka> possibly two buttons to do < and > manually
18:42:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:43:31 <pikhq> asiekierka: I suggest a bank of 8 toggle switches.
18:43:56 <pikhq> Oh, and a button to enter it in.
18:44:04 <pikhq> Output via 8 LEDs.
18:44:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw that is the basis for several of the algorithms in [[Brainfuck constants]] on the wiki
18:44:41 <ehird> A char can be any size > 8 bits, pikhq.
18:44:48 <ehird> asiekierka: Boolfuck outputs in bytes.
18:45:07 <ehird> Outputs the bit under the pointer to the output stream. The bits get output in little-endian order, the same order in which they would be input. If the total number of bits output is not a multiple of eight at the end of the program, the last character of output gets padded with zeros on the more significant end. If the end-of-file character has been input, outputs a zero to the bit under the pointer.
18:45:08 <pikhq> It just builds those bytes up 8 at a time.
18:45:19 <oerjan> (for finding multiplicative inverses mod 256)
18:45:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see the algorithm on wikipedia for it. I understand it. But I don't understand why it is useful :/
18:47:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: as i said, it's useful for finding the integer solutions to linear equations
18:47:49 <asiekierka> I am implementing a variation of BF operating on bits, also in I/O
18:48:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: or do you mean useful for brainfuck?
18:48:44 <asiekierka> is there anything better (or easier) to implement
18:49:26 <oerjan> see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<]
18:50:05 <pikhq> asiekierka: As in more useful?
18:50:11 <pikhq> As in easier? OISC.
18:50:24 <asiekierka> pikhq: But both of these have been done!
18:50:46 <pikhq> As in cooler? Malbolge.
18:51:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, How does it help for the compiler wanting to find if loop is finite or infinite.. That is the bit I don't understand.
18:51:27 <asiekierka> pikhq: I don't have a house big enough to store wirewrapped 7400 series chips for Malbolge!
18:51:34 <oerjan> then that is essentially solving the problem: is there a y such that 3+4*y = 256*k ?
18:52:06 <pikhq> Fine, then. Create your own architecture.
18:52:12 <pikhq> Port a C compiler to it.
18:52:16 <oerjan> and if so, the result is 5* the smallest such y
18:52:27 <ehird> meh, seems like my i7 965 XE and the 9800 GTX+ will suck up >430W at load, so I need a diff power supply
18:52:37 <asiekierka> pikhq: I don't have a year to waste (See: BMOW)
18:52:38 <pikhq> If you're feeling especially motivated, port Minix to it.
18:52:54 <asiekierka> I don't have time, either (See: Magic-1)
18:52:56 <pikhq> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
18:53:04 <asiekierka> I also don't want something very hard (See: both)
18:53:12 <pikhq> asiekierka: Be hard-core!
18:53:21 <oerjan> <oerjan> see, if you have something like [-]+++[---->++++++<]
18:53:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. The fact that I'm representing - as "add 255" makes this slightly complex I think...
18:53:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Why? All that buys me is ECC (= slower ram), another $500 out of my pocket, having to buy a server motherboard, and lameness.
18:53:33 <asiekierka> I'm entirely sure you can write a C compiler for OISC
18:53:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Also, I doubt it'll suck up LESS watts...
18:54:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Make that another $2,000 out of my pocket vs an i7.
18:54:07 <ehird> And even more wattage.
18:54:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh. well in principle multiples of 256 don't matter (you could do most of this with (mod 256) arithmetic)
18:54:11 <ehird> And even more on the mobo.
18:54:15 <pikhq> asiekierka: Oh, I'm sure you could.
18:54:22 <pikhq> Maybe even get LLVM to target it.
18:54:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: no, not only a 9800
18:54:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, it makes stuff easier elsewhere to not have any "add -1" or similar. Since erlang is all bignum it is a pain to make sure the range of merged nodes have the proper value if negative. Much easier if the code only needs to deal with positive values.
18:55:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: a 9800GTX+, which is competitive-with-and-sometimes-better than a Radeon HD 4850
18:55:24 <ehird> 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT
18:55:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: yes. Yes it is.
18:55:33 <ehird> So's the 4870 and it still screams.
18:55:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh. well adding 255 might actually fit this equation slightly better
18:55:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: And I want something I can cool passively with the Accelero S1 Rev2.
18:56:05 <oerjan> since you then only have a few variables to worry about being negative
18:56:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Besides, the 9800GTX+ manages Crysis @ 1920x1080 at 41fps (with some settings bumped up, IIRC)
18:56:23 <ehird> So it's not exactly crappy.
18:56:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> 9800GTX+ >>>>>>> 9800GTX >>>> 9800GT <-- can be simplified into a + But that is a dead store. So generated code could be int main(void) { return 0; }
18:56:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: wait, did i say +4? i meant -4
18:56:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: An incredibly GPU-intensive game.
18:56:58 <ehird> Even the 4870X2 (two 4870s stuck together) can't max out all of the settings to the very max and still be playable at 1920x1080.
18:56:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: but you could make that 4*255*y to fit your framework perfectly
18:57:14 <ehird> maybe GTX 295 in 3xSLI could do it
18:57:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking?
18:57:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm... only thing that can be negative is offset, and mov nodes (< is {mov, -1} basically)
18:57:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: did you literally run or just joking? <-- ehird's line? Joking.
18:58:19 <oerjan> i assume so, unless you have a very portable irc client
18:58:30 <oerjan> which people might, nowadays
18:58:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: So I don't know what you meant by the 9800GTX+ not being good.
18:58:53 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=101.
18:59:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Dude, there aren't many graphics cards much newer than it.
18:59:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Heck, the i7 came out last year!
18:59:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: The i7 came out *18 months ago*
18:59:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: so you are not having anything negative, which means you do all loop checks by checking if things are divisible by 256, i assume
18:59:47 <ehird> And newer != better.
19:00:00 <ehird> The 9800GTX+ is a powerful card, and the most powerful you can cool with the S1 Rev.2 apart from a 4870.
19:00:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that is not a big cooler
19:00:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=105 this is a big cooler
19:00:29 <ehird> (in ctx: http://www.ngohq.com/attachments/news/769d1198274397-arctic-cooling-launches-accelero-s1-rev-2-100_1050.jpg)
19:00:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have a cleanup pass that runs after all the node merging passes which adjusts out of range values
19:00:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: so 3 + (4*255)*y = 256*k fits what you would do with [-]+++[---->++++++<]
19:00:43 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, val = Val } = H|T], Result)
19:00:43 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [H#bfn{val = Val rem 256 } |Result]);
19:00:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: For silence. Plus, I don't really need more performance than the 9800GTX+. Barely anyone except HARDKOR LEET GAMERZ do.
19:01:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh well. anyway that just becomes an additive constant to k, which we don't care about
19:01:03 <AnMaster> and irc client messed up indention
19:01:03 <ehird> So since I _can_ cool it passively...
19:01:20 <asiekierka> I want to make a 16-command no-parameter set
19:01:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: they use PS3 clusters ;-)
19:01:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw of course that equation has no integer solution
19:01:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, and you lost me. Best way is to try to replicate what esotope-bfc did here. Since it is in python it also has bignums iirc.
19:02:19 <AnMaster> not sure if it uses -1 or +255 though
19:02:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: was that paste from esotope-bfc?
19:02:24 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know anything about mathematics? :)
19:02:32 <pikhq> I suggest addition to an address, subtraction from an address, and conditional jumping.
19:02:43 <pikhq> Only marginally easier than Brainfuck!
19:02:55 <AnMaster> ehird, some, but the Swedish school system sucks. Ending high school without knowing about linear algebra
19:03:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Can't suck as much as the UK system.
19:03:20 <ehird> But tbh, I'm rather maths-retarded myself; mostly learned from WP.
19:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd say it is equally bad
19:03:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra.
19:03:31 <asiekierka> Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M
19:03:52 * oerjan goes back to web browsing
19:04:05 <ehird> pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:04:07 <ehird> that is, nop is 00 00
19:04:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No.
19:04:11 <ehird> to pad out for the argument, say
19:04:18 <ehird> AnMaster: CS involves linear algebra?
19:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, easier for you to learn from WP. It is your native language.
19:04:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Coulda fooled me
19:04:35 <ehird> also, isn't there a wikipedia in Swedish?
19:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, at least CS here has linear algebra
19:04:43 <pikhq> ehird: It is mandatory for most CS degrees.
19:04:50 <ehird> I guess I'm just cynical
19:04:54 <ehird> since there are a lot of idiots doing CS
19:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) very incomplete 2) should be called "Simple Swedish"
19:05:07 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:05:07 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00
19:05:58 <AnMaster> assuming time is UTC I can't find it
19:06:07 <ehird> pikhq: AnMaster: One can finish university without knowing about linear algebra.
19:06:07 <ehird> 19:03 asiekierka: Well, I currently have NOP, NOP, <, >, +, -, M->A, A->M
19:06:08 <ehird> 19:03 oerjan goes back to web browsing
19:06:10 <ehird> 19:04 asiekierka: and SKP - Skip the next command
19:06:12 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: pikhq: are there any instruction sets that don't have zero params on all instructions that have a constant length?
19:06:15 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: that is, nop is 00 00
19:06:17 <ehird> 19:04 AnMaster: pikhq, depends on what you study. Lawyer? Certainly. CS? No.
19:06:19 <ehird> 19:04 ehird: to pad out for the argument, say
19:06:23 <ehird> A few fucking seconds ago!
19:06:54 <ehird> what are the addresses of eax,etc on x86? are they constant?
19:07:03 <asiekierka> SNZ (Skip if A != 0), SKZ (Skip if A = 0), JMP (to set address), SKP (just skip), SAH (A->high byte of addr), SAL (A->low byte of addr)
19:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: addresses of eax, etc.
19:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a register. You can't have a pointer to a register
19:07:23 <ehird> do you know what etc. means?
19:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: not neccessarily
19:07:36 <asiekierka> Add A to cell and Subtract A from cell
19:07:37 <ehird> you could have a ptr-to-register just fine
19:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, memory mapped registers yeah
19:07:42 <ehird> by reserving the first N bytes of memory-space
19:07:48 <AnMaster> but iirc x86 doesn't have that
19:08:00 <ehird> it seems like a logical design decision
19:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, also that would mess up NULL pointers badly
19:08:03 <ehird> instead of having 3 instructions
19:08:05 <ehird> constant, memory and register
19:08:07 <AnMaster> well it could work with non-zero null
19:08:17 <ehird> AnMaster: last N bytes, then
19:08:35 <AnMaster> ehird, of the possible address space, not real memory installed right?
19:08:53 <AnMaster> could work. But iirc x86 doesn't do it like that
19:09:07 <asiekierka> So the opcodes are NOP, MVL, MVR, ADM, SBM, PLA, PHA, SNZ, SKZ, JMP, SKP, SAH, SAL, ADA, SBA
19:10:01 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, all opcodes being two bytes wouldn't work
19:10:07 <ehird> you need it to be >machine word
19:10:10 <asiekierka> and yes, setting an address is just setting them in 2 cells and then you can just do PLA, SAL, MVR, PLA, SAH, if you store low-high
19:11:18 <asiekierka> so to set a cell to 3 you do ADM ADM ADM
19:11:45 <asiekierka> to clear the cell you do (assuming $0000 is command 1, $0001 is command 2...)
19:12:03 <ehird> kay, instruction = 5 bytes
19:12:18 <ehird> pikhq: think I should align at a boundary more than "byte"? :P
19:13:07 <ehird> pikhq: per instruction‽‽‽‽
19:13:11 <ehird> hmm, i'd rather 3 bytes tbh...
19:13:25 <ehird> pikhq: any idea how to do a load-word-into-X when I can only pass a pointer?
19:13:29 * pikhq creates an architecture with 32-bit aligned instructions.
19:13:49 <ehird> a nop is 00 XXXX, where the XXXX is just ignored
19:13:55 <ehird> LOAD looks at the next instruction
19:13:59 <ehird> LOAD ptr; NOP value;
19:14:17 <ehird> pikhq: discuss my evility
19:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, x86 has very varying instruction size
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19:14:32 <ehird> I'm trying to make the cpu not have to guess about it
19:14:35 <ehird> i'm designing an instruction set
19:14:42 <ehird> where all instructions are exactly the same length
19:14:47 <ehird> but that's OP XXXX
19:14:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you could do all loads from memory :D
19:14:52 <ehird> and that's just enough to store one pointer
19:14:59 <ehird> and you need to load _something_ somehow
19:15:05 <ehird> LOAD ptr; NOP value
19:15:10 <ehird> since it has to be NOP XXXX
19:15:14 <ehird> the XXXX can just be ignored
19:15:16 <ehird> and LOAD can look at it
19:15:24 <ehird> that's not interesting, that's boring and slow
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19:16:01 <ehird> otoh, LOAD looking at the next instruction is Evil(TM)
19:16:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about "load and skip next instruction"?
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19:16:30 <pikhq> ehird: As is using NOP for storage. :)
19:16:33 <AnMaster> then have the next instruction as an operand
19:16:40 <ehird> AnMaster: that's just variable instruction size
19:16:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. But with a different name
19:16:56 <ehird> variable instruction size is so inelegant :P
19:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, are there any major architectures that use fixed size? Possibly Itanium I guess...
19:17:35 <ehird> keyword being Very Long instruction word
19:17:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: RISC architectures.
19:17:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what about the load one there
19:17:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, loading a constant into a register.
19:18:03 <AnMaster> or referencing a constant memory cell
19:18:13 <ehird> i guess they just have OP XXXX YYYY and ignore Y when it isn't applicable
19:18:16 <AnMaster> you need it larger than word size
19:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, that is variable instruction size basically
19:18:37 <ehird> the instructions are all the same length
19:18:41 <ehird> just parameters are often ignored
19:18:55 <ehird> more ugly than variable length
19:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean HUGE instruction?
19:19:08 <ehird> two words plus a byte
19:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a horribly uneven size to load
19:19:36 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, are you planning to implement some hardware with this?
19:19:44 <ehird> prolly not FPGA if I do
19:19:47 <ehird> that's so cheating
19:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's too high-level ;)
19:20:39 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor-transistor_logic
19:20:51 <ehird> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ is made entirely with 'em
19:20:59 <ehird> "It doesn't use an off-the-shelf microprocessor, but instead has a custom CPU made out of 74 Series TTL chips."
19:21:03 <ehird> what asiekierka was talking about a bit befor
19:21:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that have long signal paths
19:21:16 <AnMaster> it will be even slower than a FPGA...
19:21:54 <ehird> the magic-1 runs at 4mhz
19:22:00 <ehird> that's faster than an apple IIe
19:22:04 <ehird> and faster than a C64
19:22:08 <ehird> and faster than a PDP-11
19:22:12 <ehird> and faster then the IBM PC/XT
19:22:18 <asiekierka> BMOW doesn't use only 7400's, it also uses GAL's
19:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the same speed as a PIC12F629 iirc
19:22:24 <ehird> and a little slower than the Macintosh 512
19:22:33 <ehird> so... yeah, it's not exactly slow
19:22:40 <ehird> for a homebrew type thing
19:22:41 <AnMaster> ehird, which is a computer in a package with 8 legs.
19:22:44 <asiekierka> it outputs image to VGA, has sound, multitasking, cool stuff
19:22:53 <asiekierka> and it will be there (with Magic-1) at the Maker Faire or something
19:23:10 <ehird> http://hackaday.com/2009/02/27/bmow-a-home-made-cpu/ ah.
19:23:50 <ehird> "I was pleasantly surprised to find that Magic-1 has been quite solid at 4 Mhz."
19:23:54 <ehird> Hardcore overclocking
19:24:19 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!").
19:24:34 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out).
19:25:00 <ehird> "Magic-1 continues to run rock solid at 3.75 Mhz with the new (and last - I hope) wiring modifications. There is only one hardware item left that causes me some minor concern: Magic-1 can't stand the heat. It is located in the master bedroom of my house (which, because I live in a very mild coastal climate, has no air conditioning). Sometimes, though, the temperature in the room gets up to 80 F. When this happens, Magic-1 starts failing. A typical
19:25:03 <ehird> heat-related failure is when running the Original Adventure program and it aborts at start-up with a vocabulary initialization failure. Once the room cools down in the evening, though, correct behavior resumes. "
19:25:07 <ehird> Then, the invention of the noisy computer fan.
19:25:14 <ehird> FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU—
19:26:53 <ehird> Well, just for jollies I tried running the old Whetstone benchmark on Magic-1 to see how my floating point performance is. I knew it would be really, really poor - and it is. I had to do a bit of modification to the benchmark source because my score was so low that it didn't register in the normal "Millions of Whetstones per Second" metric. As I predicted, it would be better for me to report Magic-1 in the "Dozens of Floating Point Operations per seco
19:26:57 <ehird> Anyway, I estimate that a full run of the benchmark will take somewhat more than 20 hours. My shortened run ended up at around 0.000134 MWIPS, or 11.2 DWIPS.
19:27:00 <ehird> I'll probably go ahead and do the full 20-hour run this weekend and officially submit my results :-).
19:27:07 <ehird> 11 dozen floating point operations a SECOND! WOW!
19:27:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5150118.JPG is cool
19:27:34 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's like WOPR
19:27:41 <AnMaster> in fact, a computer where that is meaningful is cool
19:27:57 <AnMaster> I don't think you could read it fast enough
19:28:03 <ehird> (http://www.pldos.pl/bogus/hardware/komputery/imsai/pics/wargames_wopr.jpg)
19:28:07 <ehird> (from the movie Wargames)
19:28:09 <ehird> (in case you didn't know)
19:28:23 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of that movie
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, why does Magic-1 have a switch labled "DMA Req"
19:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anything with lamps on the front to show registers is by definition way too old to have DMA in my mind.
19:30:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it runs minix!
19:31:04 <ehird> AnMaster: modern computers have lights that flicker when the hard disk is used
19:31:35 <ehird> And no, they don't.
19:31:39 <ehird> Not even the Mac Pro.
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19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: any more ammonia news?
19:33:37 <Slereah_> AnMaster died of ammonia poisoning
19:34:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you seem dead to me
19:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and iirc they contained it
19:35:13 * pikhq suggests a system architecture
19:35:38 <pikhq> There are two instructions: NOP and HCF.
19:35:53 <AnMaster> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Magic1.pdf <-- seems like it has CF slot on the back
19:36:18 <pikhq> And it has a 1-bit addressing scheme.
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19:36:32 <ehird> pikhq: No, I think four would be best. hcf, sfi (set fire intensity), sfg (set fire geometry), str (stutter).
19:36:35 <pikhq> Sorry, it has exactly one bit of memory.
19:36:48 <pikhq> Which can be either 0 or 1.
19:36:54 <ehird> You fiddle about with them all the time to perform the computation, you see.
19:36:58 <ehird> Also, it has an infinite tape.
19:37:04 <ehird> To modify it, make the fire burn it the right way.
19:37:12 <ehird> Therefore, it is turing complete.
19:37:18 <ehird> Jumps? Just burn the bits on the IP.
19:37:39 <pikhq> It can be implemented by a light switch wired up to a power source and a spark plug in a barrel of gunpowder.
19:37:51 <ehird> pikhq: Mine's better because it is TC.
19:38:04 <ehird> asiekierka: halt-and-catch-fire
19:38:05 <pikhq> asiekierka: Halt and Catch Fire.
19:38:31 <pikhq> ehird: Your idea sounds like an interesting Turing tarpit.
19:39:35 <Slereah_> Turing tarpits are the cool thing around here doncha know
19:39:40 <ehird> ais523: how much do you think it'd cost to get an fpga/vhdl environment? yeah it's so uncool but :P
19:39:47 <ehird> pikhq: Turing firepit, rather
19:39:53 <ehird> ais523: just a simple slow thing
19:40:15 <ais523> ehird: not a ridiculous amount if you just want low-end stuff and demonstration boards
19:40:28 <ehird> ais523: will the software run on linux?
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19:41:11 <ais523> ehird: I don't know; I've only ever seen Windows software for that
19:41:18 <ais523> but IME, such software normally works well on WINE
19:41:39 <ais523> well, at home I use VHDL, which is Linux, but it's just a simulator
19:41:40 <Sgeo> Windows software for what?
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19:42:00 <ais523> at University, we have a choice of programs
19:42:06 <ais523> any of which may or may not work in any given situation
19:42:15 <ehird> I just want non-shitty tools for cheap and an fpga to run stuff on :-)
19:42:17 <ais523> but the one you'll likely have to use is the low-end one that comes free with the demo board
19:42:26 <ais523> as the others will tend to be price on request
19:42:27 <Sgeo> Hardware stuff goes over my head
19:42:32 <ehird> ais523: crappy, I assume?
19:42:39 <ais523> not bad, but generally limited
19:42:42 <Sgeo> Mostly because I'm cheap
19:42:47 <ais523> sort-of, shareware-style
19:42:50 <ehird> and I doubt there's a buzzing pirate scene around FPGA stuff :-P
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19:43:19 <ais523> ehird: there's http://opencores.org which is not piracy, but open-source hardware is a great concept anyway
19:44:02 <ais523> I haven't used it much
19:44:10 <ais523> but from what I've heard, the stuff there's good and high quality
19:44:20 <ais523> but you won't find anything amazingly big and complex
19:44:25 <ais523> small processors are about the best you can hope for
19:44:38 <Sgeo> Can an fpga be made into a video card?
19:44:40 <ehird> ais523: wait, that's not fpga software?
19:44:41 <ehird> you implied it was
19:44:47 <ehird> see caustic graphics
19:44:49 <ais523> ehird: it's VHDL and Verilog code snippets
19:44:56 <ais523> Sgeo: an FPGA can be made into anything
19:44:56 <ehird> they are going to sell an fpga that does realtime raytracing
19:45:05 <ehird> w/ accompanying software
19:45:20 <ais523> the only difference between an FPGA and a dedicated chip are that the FPGA's slightly slower, and the dedicated chip is cheaper in bulk amounts
19:45:20 <ehird> ah, do sell, it seems
19:45:44 <Sgeo> ........so once I have fpgas, it's like being able to download hardware?
19:45:55 <ais523> although, only digital hardware
19:45:59 <ehird> **Sgeo's mind blows**
19:46:04 <Sgeo> ehird, yes, it did
19:46:06 <ais523> and you'll need extra components in order to do anything but digital inputs and outputs
19:46:25 <pikhq> I suggest doing CMOS analog circuitry. :p[
19:46:33 <ehird> i suggest nanotechnology
19:46:39 <ehird> after all, Intel say they'll do it by 2015
19:46:42 <ais523> pikhq: but then the whole thing would be type B, and you'd get massive distortion
19:46:53 <ais523> you'd probably want to tweak CMOS somewhat to make a type AB circuit
19:46:58 <ais523> pure-B is only good for digital stuff
19:47:04 <pikhq> ehird: Nano-robots? Forward the singularity!
19:47:08 <ehird> "The 11 nanometer (11 nm) node is the technology node following 16 nm node. The exact naming of this technology node comes from the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS). According to the 2007 edition of this roadmap, by the year 2022, the half-pitch (i.e., half the distance between identical features in an array) for a DRAM should be 11 nm, although Intel's "Architecture and Silicon Cadence Model" places it closer to the year 2015.
19:47:10 <ehird> Intel's Pat Gelsinger claims that Intel sees a 'clear way' towards the 11 nm node.[1][2] "
19:47:11 <pikhq> ais523: It'd be crappy, yes.
19:47:12 <ehird> 11nm = nanotechnology
19:47:15 <pikhq> ais523: But it can be done.
19:47:22 <Sgeo> I've been fantasizing about open-source hardware, but only when imagining 3d printing that can do electronics
19:47:37 <ehird> it's called a fabricator
19:47:43 <ehird> do you have millions of dollars?
19:47:44 <ais523> pikhq: you'd have to be fighting the intrinsic digitalness of type-B circuits every step of the way
19:47:58 <ehird> pikhq: $200 silicon fabricator?
19:48:05 <pikhq> ehird: Reprap can print circuitry now.
19:48:08 <ais523> Sgeo: an FPGA's more like a single chip which is generic enough to be configured however you want
19:48:17 <ehird> pikhq: Reprap isn't really the same thing...
19:48:20 <pikhq> I'm thinking "circuit board" type printing.
19:48:21 <Sgeo> ais523, right, I understand
19:48:45 <ehird> Sgeo: you can buy fpgas pretty cheap, I think
19:48:46 <pikhq> ehird: That + FPGA = ... Well, print your own motherboard, anyone?
19:48:54 <ehird> ais523: how much is a demo kit? $200 or so right?
19:49:19 <ais523> but there are only two main manufacturers, more or less like with x86 chips and with graphics cards
19:49:26 <ais523> so it would be simple enough to just check both
19:49:47 <ehird> also, it seems that hardware companies gravitate to a two-manufacturer system
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19:50:28 <asiekierka> Well, I want to create a small-size computational machine, as in, a machine geared for computations
19:50:33 <pikhq> Because it's a hard market to get into, but a lucrative market to stay in?
19:50:39 <ais523> <Xilinx> (typical technology company homepage)
19:50:41 <ais523> <Altira> You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player. You also need to have javascript enabled.
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19:50:52 <ehird> ais523: the latter's typical too
19:50:53 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but, it's never 3 or 4
19:50:54 <ais523> hmm... round one goes to Xilinx, I think
19:51:01 <ais523> ehird: I mean in how it looks
19:51:11 <ehird> ais523: also, it's Altera
19:51:28 <ehird> that's a different FPGA company
19:51:29 <ehird> now that's confusing
19:51:54 <ais523> wow, that is confusing
19:51:59 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure I got the right one now
19:52:07 <ehird> http://www.hitechglobal.com/boards/v5ddr3_pcie.htm
19:52:09 <ehird> is that what I want?
19:52:12 <ais523> Altera are the FPGA people
19:52:14 <ehird> it seems terribly bloated!
19:52:23 <ais523> and no, no way you'll be able to afford a Virtex
19:52:26 <ais523> those are the high-end chips
19:52:27 <ehird> ais523: Altira are about energy things
19:52:39 <ehird> also, it says PowerPC
19:52:43 <ehird> that's not very custom!
19:52:52 <ais523> they have integrated microprocessors nowadays
19:52:53 <ehird> ais523: http://www.xilinx.com/products/devboards/index.htm
19:52:58 <ehird> spartan or coolrunner
19:53:12 <ais523> spartan's the one that the university buys for students to mess with
19:53:15 <ehird> coolrunner is CPLD
19:53:24 <ehird> The Xilinx Spartan®-3A Starter Kit delivers instant access to Spartan-3A FPGA device features such as SUSPEND power-saving mode, high-speed I/O options, DDR2 SDRAM memory interface, commodity flash configuration support, and FPGA/IP protection using Device DNA Security.
19:53:26 <ais523> and I don't even know what CPLD stands for
19:53:28 <ehird> god that's so bloated
19:53:35 <ais523> ehird: they're all bloated
19:53:44 <ehird> ais523: i want a lean mean custom FPGAing machine :-P
19:54:16 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/kit-dev_platforms.jsp
19:54:20 <ais523> seems rather unlikely, given the way the industry operates
19:54:26 <ais523> personally, I think the FPGA industry is insane
19:54:30 <ais523> the whole industry, that is
19:54:45 <ehird> The low-cost Cyclone® II FPGA Starter Development Kit is ideal for evaluating Altera's high-performance, low-power, 90-nm technology. By using this RoHS-compliant starter development kit, you will see 60 percent (on average) higher performance and 50 percent (on average) lower power than competing 90-nm, low-cost FPGAs. Several reference designs and demonstrations included in the kit make for a quick, "out-of-the-box" evaluation experience.
19:54:46 <ais523> they get away with all sorts of ridiculous stuff because they don't have real competition
19:54:46 * pikhq observes once again that Magic-1 is pretty awesome
19:55:04 <ehird> ok, that's more minimal like I expected
19:55:13 <ehird> http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/images/fig1-cyclone2-staterkit.jpg
19:55:17 <ais523> that's the measurement of how complex an FPGA is
19:55:24 <ehird> ais523: doesn't say, what does it stand for?
19:55:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> although, only digital hardware
19:55:37 <ais523> it's how they're implemented
19:55:41 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/products/devkits/altera/kit-cyc2-2C20N.html; it doesn't seem to tell you
19:55:52 <AnMaster> ais523, why not analogue FPGAs
19:55:53 <ehird> maybe the reference manual?
19:55:54 <ais523> ehird: look at the chip, not the development kit
19:56:04 <ais523> AnMaster: ever tried to write a truth-table for an analog circuit
19:56:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because FPGAs are a very, very digital-only design.
19:56:34 <ehird> ais523: http://www.altera.com/literature/lit-cyc2.jsp lots of cyclone ii shit
19:56:36 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact I have a vague memory of having read about such a FGPA... Something about "evolving" hardware...
19:56:38 <pikhq> We're talking logic gates here.
19:56:45 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't analogu
19:56:49 <ehird> that just used analogue IO
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19:57:08 <ais523> it was actually an attempt to use a digital combinatorial circuit in order to evaluate an analog sequential function
19:57:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it ended up using analogue bits inside iirc.
19:57:11 <ais523> which in theory is impossible
19:57:14 <ais523> but it ended up working anyway
19:57:39 <ehird> ais523: LEs seems to be it
19:57:51 <ais523> Altera use a different name for them
19:58:00 <ehird> ais523: the max of the cyclone IIS is 68,416
19:58:03 <ehird> so how good's 20K?
19:58:21 <ais523> 1 LUT is about equal to one byte of machine code
19:58:22 <ehird> (the min of the cyclone IIs is 4K :-P)
19:58:29 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc some components were not reachable, but when taken away the FPGA stopped working?
19:58:32 <ehird> ais523: ah, so it controls how advanced your machine can be?
19:58:45 <AnMaster> ais523, speculation about induction iirc
19:58:45 <ehird> ais523: what would, say, MIPS be?
19:58:58 <ais523> quite a lot more than that, I imagine
19:59:14 <ehird> ais523: ok, what about a really simple embedded ARM
19:59:20 <ais523> I've managed to use huge numbers of LUTs before just trying to do multiplication
19:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, My ISP sent one for free. My ADSL modem runs on MIPS it seems
19:59:32 <ais523> a 32-bit multiplier costs a lot, if you don't have a separate one on the chip
19:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, so do quite a few other ones that can run dd-wrt
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19:59:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't ask price
19:59:55 <ais523> RAM uses a lot of LUTs too (one per /bit/ of RAM, plus a few more), but nearly all FPGAs have on-board RAM separate from the LUTs
19:59:59 <ehird> ais523: i'd hate to be making a totally-awesome minimalist CPU and then run into a LE limit
20:00:04 <ehird> AnMaster: look up table
20:00:09 <ehird> this FPGA has 20K of them
20:00:23 <ehird> ais523: yeah—239,616 bits of RAM
20:00:40 <ais523> I love the way FPGA RAM is measured in bits
20:00:52 <ais523> because the word length depends on how you connect them up
20:00:57 <AnMaster> ais523, at least there is no 1000 vs 1024 thing then
20:01:00 <ehird> ais523: it's 39 kilobytes!
20:01:23 <ais523> ehird: is that the dedicated RAM, or the RAM if you use all the LUTs as RAM too?
20:01:36 <ais523> some manufacturers give the second value to make the chips look better than they are
20:01:40 <ehird> ais523: don't even know
20:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that is quite possible!
20:02:03 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 8-Mbyte SDRAM
20:02:03 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 512-Kbit SRAM
20:02:04 <ehird> 19:54 ehird: 4-Mbyte flash
20:02:08 <ehird> so it has external ram at well, at least
20:02:20 <ehird> how much do you think I could fit into 18,752 LEs?
20:03:22 <ais523> I'm trying to find some data on that atm
20:03:57 <ehird> wow, it supports 640x480 VGA
20:04:06 <ehird> it has a PS/2 connector
20:04:09 <ais523> they come with lots of useless features, normally
20:04:25 <ehird> ais523: like a 24-bit audio codec
20:04:43 <ehird> 4 seven-segment displays—that's FOUR calculators!
20:04:50 <ehird> ais523: a "USB-Blaster" port, whatever that is
20:04:52 <ehird> an SD card connector!
20:05:03 <ehird> microphone-in, line-in, line-out
20:05:05 <ehird> this is truly amazing
20:05:25 <ais523> those are one-digit seven-segment displays
20:05:34 <ehird> that's less than one calculator!
20:05:56 <ehird> Audio CODEC The development board provides a Wolfson WM8731high-quality, 24-bit,
20:05:56 <ehird> sigma-delta audio encoder/decoder (CODEC) for applications such as
20:05:57 <ehird> MP3 players and recorders, PDAs, smart phones, and voice recorders.
20:06:37 <ehird> ais523: so is altera verilog or vhdl?
20:06:47 <ais523> ehird: almost certainly both
20:06:56 <ais523> but the general rule is that the military uses vhdl, everyone else uses verilog
20:07:04 <ehird> I thought you used vhdl
20:07:10 <ais523> they're pretty much the same language nowadays anyway, just with different syntax
20:07:12 <ais523> and yes, I was tought VHDL
20:07:24 <ehird> Verilog's syntax looks nicer
20:07:25 <ais523> I suspect most talented FPGA people end up in the military...
20:07:37 <ais523> ehird: Verilog is C-like, VHDL is ADA-like
20:07:41 <ehird> ais523: figured out what 20K could fit?
20:07:53 <ais523> not yet, I'm still looking
20:07:59 <ehird> "However, using this 9-valued logic (U,X,0,1,Z,W,H,L,-) "
20:08:08 <ais523> booleans have 9 possible values in VHDL
20:09:02 <ehird> ais523: Verilog isn't that c like
20:09:05 <pikhq> ais523: ... 9 possible values?!?
20:09:07 <ehird> if (rst) // This causes reset of the cntr
20:09:10 <ehird> if (cet && cep) // Enables both true
20:09:14 <ehird> if (count == length-1)
20:09:17 <pikhq> HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
20:09:20 <ehird> count <= count + 5'b1; // 5'b1 is 5 bits
20:09:22 <ehird> end // wide and equal
20:09:24 <ehird> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1164
20:09:26 <ehird> impedance, drive and shit
20:09:29 <ehird> Because it's hardware.
20:09:55 <ais523> pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown
20:09:56 <ehird> ** pikhq has disconnected
20:09:56 <pikhq> I'll train a bunch of rodents to do my computations.
20:10:15 <ehird> http://www88.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=bacon+as+mass+of+milky+way&a=*C.bacon-_*ExpandedFood.dflt-&a=*C.milky+way-_*Astronomical.dflt-&a=*EAC.ExpandedFood.PreparedCuredPorkBacon-_**PreparedCuredPorkBacon.*Food%3ACookingMethod_Food%3APanFried---
20:10:18 <ais523> in RL, hardware can end up with a lot more values from 0 to 1
20:10:19 <ehird> Bacon as mass of milky way
20:10:42 <ehird> "Assuming "milky way" is an astronomical object | Use as a food instead "
20:10:44 * ehird eats the milky way
20:10:52 <pikhq> ehird: I use IP via carrier pigeon.
20:10:59 <ehird> (yes, I know it's a chocolate bar)
20:11:04 <pikhq> And I feed my pigeons coffee beans.
20:11:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> pikhq: true, false, true via a resistor, false via a resistor, contradiction, uninitialised, between true and false, unconnected, unknown <-- why is "via resistor" significant
20:11:17 <ehird> pikhq: that's hardware, just wetware
20:11:32 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yes. Wetware, however, makes much more sense.
20:11:38 <ehird> pikhq: Are you on crack? :-)
20:11:41 <ais523> AnMaster: because if you connect true via resistor to false, you get false
20:11:48 <ais523> but if you connect true to false, you get a contradiction
20:11:50 <pikhq> No, but my computer rats are.
20:12:01 <ais523> contradictions are /bad/, they can damage the chip in theory
20:12:31 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you model analogue cicuits
20:12:43 * pikhq makes sure the bit is in operating condition, gives it more crack, sets it back into RAM
20:12:53 <ais523> ehird: OK, I found some details: you can do an M68000 microprocessor in about 6000 LUTs
20:12:58 <ais523> depending on what other features of the chip you use
20:13:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: With a breadboard.
20:13:06 <ehird> ais523: that's pretty good
20:13:14 <AnMaster> would be nicer if you could do it more like VHDL
20:13:14 <ehird> that's very good, in fact
20:13:21 <ais523> AnMaster: using a language other than VHDL
20:13:29 <ehird> ais523: i could have over 20 68000s :P
20:13:38 <ais523> I'm not sure if there is one yet
20:13:52 <ais523> ehird: also, buy yourself an anti-static wrist strap, if you're planning to mess with FPGAs
20:14:00 <ais523> they're very static-sensitive, much more so than computers
20:14:24 <ehird> ais523: do you actually touch it much?
20:14:41 <ehird> I wouldn't expect so
20:15:12 <ais523> ehird: depends on what you're doing with it
20:15:24 <ais523> but mostly you wouldn't, I expect
20:15:43 <ais523> I'm paranoid about static, though, I've seen all sorts of good circuits ruined due to it
20:16:33 <AnMaster> what about making static-resistant/proof chipset
20:17:18 <pikhq> Possible, if you've got a chip fab.
20:17:20 <ehird> you mean a computer?
20:17:36 <ais523> AnMaster: could be, but the technique of using a static-sensitive chip and putting it in an antistatic box tens to be cheaper
20:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, no I mean FPGAs, ICs and so on
20:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: not what i meant
20:18:25 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the internal logic method
20:18:33 <ais523> TTL-based chips are a lot less static-sensitive than CMOS, for instance
20:18:53 <ais523> but they use more power
20:18:59 <ais523> more power = more heat = harder to cool
20:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, what method is used for current CPUs btw?
20:19:05 <ais523> so you have to run TTL-based circuits slower or they overheat
20:19:12 <ais523> and CMOS is pretty much standard for anything complicated
20:19:22 <ais523> simpler things are often lowpower-schottky-TTL
20:19:37 <ais523> if for some reason you don't want CMOS (say you're the military and want something that won't break in weird conditions)
20:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's some slightly different way to make a transistor, I think
20:20:05 <pikhq> ais523: Or if you're putting the thing in orbit.
20:20:12 <ehird> AnMaster: CMOS is used atm, but we're nearing on nanotechnology
20:20:12 <AnMaster> thought it was a typo for "shoddy"
20:20:20 <ais523> I imagine they don't use CMOS much on spacecraft
20:20:42 <ehird> 22nm is the last pure CMOS, iirc
20:20:47 <ehird> and 11nm is real nanoelectronics; I may be wrong
20:20:53 <pikhq> The space shuttle still has solid-state circuitry.
20:21:10 <AnMaster> ais523, did you mean "Schottky"?
20:21:12 <pikhq> Might even have some tubes.
20:21:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I said "Schottky", then you misqupted me
20:21:24 <ehird> "Fifteen nanometres is equivalent to 0.005906 thou, or 0.000015 millimetres, and is the width of a very very very very very thin human hair which you can't see unless your eyesight is very very very very very good." —The Inquirer
20:21:50 <ais523> there are a lot of nanometres in a deci-inch, surely
20:22:07 <ehird> ais523: it's very very very very very thin hair.
20:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: nope, 100% serious
20:22:28 <ais523> (deci-inches are /not/ the industry standard for pin spaces, that's the 2.54mm standard, but the name is inevitable given that it is exactly a tenth of an inch)
20:22:34 <pikhq> Wow. The space shuttle's RAM...
20:22:35 <ehird> the very-hair-very-eyesight measurement system is very very very common
20:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't get human hair that thin
20:22:43 <ehird> AnMaster: prove it
20:22:51 <ais523> pikhq: that's brilliant
20:22:54 <ais523> and actually, doesn't surprise me
20:23:03 <ais523> given that they must actually get loads of cosmic rays up there
20:23:18 <ais523> I imagine the transistors in the processors are massively big by today's standards, too
20:23:18 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_AP-101 They've got 5 of these.
20:23:23 <ehird> AnMaster: "Analyze every human hair on the planet" "too lazy" Understatement of the century
20:23:23 <ais523> probably measured in microns
20:23:48 <ehird> ais523: eh, 1 um was circa 1985
20:24:01 <ehird> and we had 0.X ums until 2002-2003
20:24:06 <pikhq> It's a System 360.
20:24:08 <ehird> (before that 0.13 um)
20:24:18 <ais523> ehird: big in order to avoid radiation disruption, rather than because they can't make them smaller
20:24:27 <ehird> I'm just saying it's not THAT old
20:26:20 <pikhq> They upgraded the thing in 1990.
20:26:27 <pikhq> They use an AP-101s.
20:26:31 <pikhq> Has semiconductor memory.
20:26:55 <pikhq> And a whole 1.2 MIPS.
20:28:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't say that. You said "prove it". Which could be referring to some report
20:28:35 <ehird> AnMaster: such a report would have to review all human hair too
20:30:23 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Just prove it isn't possible.
20:30:50 <ehird> "On Monday, I start at Google. I don't know the exact details of what I'll be doing there, but I can only assume that the bright folks there have realized that the future of massively powerful data centers belongs to wire-wrapped TTL. I'll be sure to bring my wire-wrap gun." —homebrewcpu.com
20:31:44 <pikhq> He works on Android.
20:32:45 <ehird> [[Shortly after I declared Magic-1 "hardware complete", I casually mentioned to my wife that I was starting to think about Magic-2. Her response was swift, and final:
20:32:47 <ehird> "No, there will be no Magic-2!"
20:32:51 <ehird> I can't blame her. She was an extraordinary good sport during Magic-1's design and construction - especially during the wire-wrapping phase. For most of a year, she put up with electronic junk littering the kitchen table, wire-wrap insulation fragments on the floor and a husband often lost in concentration while the kids were hollering for attention.
20:32:58 <ehird> She's the love of my life, the woman I plan on growing old with, mother of my children, my partner and best friend. I have to respect her wishes on this.
20:33:03 <ehird> So, there will be no Magic-2.
20:33:07 <ehird> Instead, we'll call the follow-on project "Magic-16".]]
20:33:18 <ais523> I know what wire-wrapping is
20:33:24 <ais523> just I'm slightly surprised it was being used
20:33:28 <pikhq> ais523: Magic-1 is a wire-wrapped TTL machine.
20:33:30 <ehird> ais523: it IS a homebrew cpu...
20:33:35 <ehird> and avoids soldering
20:33:37 <ais523> yes, but I would have soldered
20:33:45 <ehird> ais523: have you seen it?
20:33:46 <ais523> because it's easier and more reliable
20:33:52 <ehird> I wouldn't say it's easier
20:33:54 <ehird> soldering is a pain
20:33:56 <ais523> and no, I haven't seen it
20:33:59 <pikhq> He wanted it to be hard-core.
20:34:12 <ais523> and especially with the typical scale of TTL chips, soldering is easy
20:34:20 <ais523> they're some of the easiest things to solder
20:34:26 <ehird> ais523: http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/bu_3.JPG
20:34:35 <ais523> annoying soldering is if you have something in a SOIC package
20:34:42 <ais523> I once spent several hours soldering one of those
20:34:50 <ehird> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/Pictures/P5140113.JPG ← it has a window, just like HARDKOR PCS!
20:34:53 <ais523> with a magnifying glass and a special soldering iron
20:35:03 <ehird> ais523: wire-wrapping is more beautiful, though
20:35:09 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Computerplatine_Wire-wrap_backplane_detail_Z80_Doppel-Europa-Format_1977.jpg
20:35:29 <ais523> ugh no, that's just illegible
20:35:39 <ehird> ais523: but pretty
20:35:46 <ais523> and could be soldered in about half a second per pin for someone who knew what they were doing
20:35:54 <ais523> which is faster than the wire-wrap would be
20:35:58 <ehird> ais523: and who didn't care about burning themselves :)
20:36:16 <ais523> ehird: with the apparent scale of that, burning oneself would be really rather unlikely
20:36:27 <ais523> your hands would be nowhere near the soldering itself
20:36:42 <pikhq> Part of the idea was to be retro.
20:36:44 <ais523> soldering burns are more likely when putting the soldering iron away afterwards
20:36:47 <ais523> (I know this from experience)
20:36:49 <pikhq> And wire-wrapping is very retro.
20:36:57 <pikhq> ais523: You fail. :p
20:37:06 <pikhq> ... Granted, I've done worse.
20:37:10 <ais523> pikhq: no, it's nearer your hand then than at any time during the actual soldering
20:37:17 <ais523> I've burnt myself about three times like that
20:37:19 <pikhq> (I once grabbed a soldering iron by the tip by accident)
20:37:43 <pikhq> Yeah, I got a pretty solid burn from that.
20:37:51 <ais523> running your hand under the cold tap for a few minutes normally means you have no lasting effects
20:37:57 <AnMaster> I never burned on my soldering iron
20:38:03 <ais523> pikhq: maybe you should get one of the solder gun things
20:38:11 <ais523> which heats up in about 3 seconds, and cools down just as quickly
20:38:23 <ehird> I once touched a hot, bright lightbulb with the my hand directly.
20:38:27 <ehird> In a sort of grasping motion.
20:38:36 <ehird> That was not actually very damaging.
20:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: you wrap the wire around a lot, tightly
20:38:52 <AnMaster> ais523, trapping the end under the wraps?
20:39:04 <ais523> no, you wrap the end of the wire around the pin
20:39:09 <ais523> if you wrap tightly enough, it stays on
20:39:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: The process of wire-wrapping creates a cold weld.
20:40:08 <ehird> ais523: "Wire wrap construction can produce assemblies which are more reliable than printed circuits"
20:40:12 <pikhq> Bringing two pieces of metal in contact with each other at enough pressure welds them together.
20:40:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, I've seen some /really/ low quality printed circuits in the past
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20:40:45 <ais523> soldering is more reliable than wire-wrapping; but the actual printed wires on PCBs can often be awful
20:40:49 <ais523> so the connections are fine, but the wires break
20:41:06 <ais523> you can use stripboard if you want the reliability of wires and of soldering
20:41:07 <pikhq> Works only with metals that don't oxidize, IIRC.
20:41:18 <ais523> but that doesn't work on high-frequency circuits
20:41:34 <ais523> pikhq: most wires in use nowadays are tin-plated, though, even though they're made of copper
20:41:39 <ais523> that's why they don't look red like copper does
20:42:51 * pikhq observes that wire-wrapping is kinda cool, if absurdly labor-intensive.
20:43:10 <pikhq> Unless you've got a handheld wire-wrapping tool or an automatic wire-wrapper.
20:43:21 <pikhq> (the latter is about as cheap as a chip fab)
20:43:38 <ehird> i want one of those loom things
20:43:41 <ehird> and emulate x86 on them
20:43:50 <ehird> it'd totally be possible
20:43:54 <ais523> pikhq: but solder wave baths are cool too
20:44:03 <ais523> ehird: but x86 is an awful architecture
20:44:07 <pikhq> ais523: Indeed, they are.
20:44:10 <ehird> ais523: thus making the emulation more impressive
20:44:20 <pikhq> That's just painful.
20:44:31 <pikhq> Now, I bet that Magic-1 could run X.
20:44:37 <pikhq> Not well, but it could run.
20:44:42 <pikhq> (assuming video hardware)
20:44:45 <ais523> rather slowly, I'd imagine
20:44:49 <ehird> It could run X pretty nicely.
20:44:51 <ehird> 4mhz isn't too bad...
20:44:52 <AnMaster> ais523, are there good quality printed circuit boards?
20:44:56 <ehird> You could run a few xterms.
20:45:13 <pikhq> It wouldn't be fancy stuff like we're used to, but it'd at least run X.
20:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, right. But none of those you actually end up soldering on yourself!
20:45:22 <ais523> what's really disappointing, though, is that at University, we couldn't make our own PCBs for safety reasons
20:45:22 <pikhq> Not much more than Xterms and TWM, I'd imagine.
20:45:28 <ais523> so we had to pay for the technicians to make them
20:45:37 <ais523> and they came out lower-quality than the ones I'd made alone at secondary school
20:45:40 <pikhq> That's really lame.
20:45:49 <AnMaster> ais523, is it hard to make PCBs?
20:45:50 <ais523> pikhq: very, considering I was approved to make them when at school
20:45:51 <pikhq> All you really need to make a PCB is a dark room.
20:45:59 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you just need the appropriate equipment
20:46:10 <ehird> pikhq: xterms and twm should be enough for anyone
20:46:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it involves chemicals
20:46:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: The best way to do it at home is a photographic process.
20:46:25 <ehird> ais523: oxygen is a chemical!111
20:46:26 <ais523> some of which are moderately dangerous
20:46:26 <AnMaster> ais523, err... So what about chemistry classes at uni
20:46:32 <ais523> pikhq: you don't need a dark room
20:46:38 <ais523> I agree with the photographic process
20:46:42 <ais523> but it's done with ultraviolet
20:46:53 <ais523> so as long as you block out natural light and are fast, you don't care about visible light around
20:47:03 <ehird> ais523: that's how you make printed circuit boards?
20:47:04 <pikhq> ais523: The thing is, a dark room has all the equipment you need.
20:47:08 <ehird> like developing a photograph with ultraviolet?
20:47:24 <pikhq> I didn't say it needs to actually be dark.
20:47:38 <ehird> that's ultra mega awesome
20:47:44 <pikhq> ehird: Enlarger, wash basin, and some chemicals. :)
20:47:52 <ehird> what do you actually develop, though?
20:48:00 <ais523> ehird: basically, you have PCBs coated with copper, where the copper is itself coated with photoresist
20:48:08 <ais523> you print out your design on tracing paper
20:48:20 <ais523> then shine ultraviolet through the tracing paper onto the photoresist
20:48:29 <ehird> what does the design look like?
20:48:37 <ais523> ehird: the shape of the copper you need
20:48:45 <ehird> haha that's so awesome.
20:48:46 <ais523> ink where the copper is, blank where it isn't
20:48:57 <ais523> so it's arguably a positive, the whole process is a double-negative
20:48:59 <ehird> so this is how they make motherboards?
20:49:06 <ais523> for motherboards, it's automated
20:49:18 <ais523> and the boards have multiple layers, so it's a bit more complicated
20:49:19 <pikhq> ais523: Oh, didn't realise that it was positive-positive printing.
20:49:51 <ais523> pikhq: black on the input = no ultraviolet = fixed photoresist = the acid can't get to the copper
20:49:57 <ais523> so it's sort-of double-negative printing
20:50:01 <pikhq> I wasn't thinking.
20:50:25 <pikhq> That's positive printing. ;)
20:50:58 <ais523> anyway, once you've shined the ultraviolet onto the photoresist, you take the whole thing over to a vat of developer
20:51:01 <ais523> and submerge it in there
20:51:07 <ehird> I wonder what the ideal instruction set for C is
20:51:20 <ais523> the photoresist is naturally green, but it turns purple in the developer and washes off in a sort of wispy fashion, it's rather pretty
20:51:29 <ais523> then you dip the whole thing in a vat of acid
20:51:36 <ais523> and that's the bit that people keep screwing up
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20:51:48 <ehird> ais523: I always thought motherboards were just like, squirting and denting silicon and copper and shit with machines.
20:51:48 <pikhq> But you can run the original compiler on a PDP-11.
20:51:53 <ehird> Photographic motherboards is so cooler.
20:51:58 <ais523> if you don't leave it in there long enough, the acid doesn't have enough time to etch away the copper
20:52:00 <ais523> and you get open circuits
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20:52:20 <pikhq> ais523: That's kinda lame.
20:52:21 <ais523> if you leave it in there too long, the acid gets in under the photoresist and the wires become unreliable
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20:52:42 <pikhq> Especially since the etching isn't that much harder than a photographic fixer...
20:52:49 <ehird> wow, Minix doesn't do copy-on-write when fork()ing
20:52:57 <ais523> which is why it's beyond me that people keep screwing it up
20:52:57 <pikhq> Granted, the etch bath is a bit more caustic than a fixer.
20:53:02 <ais523> I am, as you guessed, rather bitter about this
20:53:31 <ais523> (also, a 45-degree angle or less on a PCB is known as an "acid trap", because the acid tends to get stuck in it even after you've taken the PCB out of the acid)
20:53:33 <pikhq> I mean, really. It's a process that's well over a hundred years old by now.
20:53:40 <pikhq> My *grandmother* could do it better.
20:53:57 <pikhq> (really; she has dark room equipment laying around)
20:54:00 <ais523> pikhq: what method do you use in order to get the spare photoresist off afterwards?
20:54:19 <ais523> when I used to do it, we did it by covering the whole board with ultraviolet and developing a second time
20:54:23 * Corun notes that tanenbaum is giving a lecture as his uni a week on thursday
20:54:27 <pikhq> ais523: For a circuit board?
20:54:32 <pikhq> I think that's the best method.
20:54:37 <ais523> pikhq: yes, it works because there are no components
20:54:48 <ais523> although there are at least two methods which work at that point
20:54:50 <pikhq> Might be a wash bath instead, but *shrug*
20:55:10 <ais523> I've seen a catalogue that recommended you used a PCB eraser to clean the lines of photoresist
20:55:17 <pikhq> Corun: That's pretty nice. I recommend going, he's a rather good speaker.
20:55:18 <ais523> and a PCB eraser works much the same way to a pencil eraser
20:55:41 <Corun> Tell him about all my next gen OS ideas :-)
20:55:41 <ehird> I wonder if tanenbaum still considers linux obsolete
20:55:44 <Corun> Or maybe I shouldn't...
20:55:52 * pikhq saw his address at USENIX ATC '08, after he got the USENIX Lifetime Achievement Award. Good lecture.
20:55:55 <Corun> I mean he could just steal them ^_^
20:56:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tanenbaum.
20:56:30 <pikhq> Corun: Feel free to tell him.
20:56:30 <ehird> You DON'T KNOW WHO TANENBAUM IS?
20:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it German for xmas tree...
20:56:34 <ehird> Stop using a computer right now.
20:56:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Less talking, more shutting off.
20:56:48 <Corun> Minix inventor, and author of like a million OS books and basically he's professor of all Operating Systems.
20:56:48 <pikhq> He likes talking about kernel designs.
20:57:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: He wrote the book on kernels.
20:57:09 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm pretty fscking sure ais523 knows who Tanenbaum is...
20:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, considering he didn't know who jwz was...
20:57:21 <ehird> He knew who jwz was.
20:57:27 <ehird> He just didn't know he worked on Netscape.
20:57:27 <ais523> AnMaster: according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" translated from German to English is "apertium"
20:57:39 <ehird> ais523: you knew who jwz was, didn't you?
20:57:41 <ais523> but as far as I know, "apertium" isn't an English world
20:57:43 <ehird> just not that he worked on netscape
20:58:10 <ais523> ehird: my situation with Tanenbaum is similar; I know he's famous in computers/programming, but can't remember what for
20:58:18 <ehird> ais523: flaming Linux
20:58:21 <ehird> is the most famous thing
20:58:29 <ehird> and a gigantic amount of operating system textbooks
20:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, so don't complain about me then
20:58:41 <ehird> but most famous popculture wise, definitely flaming Linux way back then
20:58:47 <ehird> AnMaster: at least he had a vague idea
20:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the name did sound familiar
20:59:05 <ais523> ah, Minix, that was it
20:59:08 <ais523> why did he flame Linux?
20:59:15 <ehird> ais523: monolithic kernel
20:59:17 <ais523> for doing things differently?
20:59:20 <Corun> Cos he considered it a step backwards in operating system design
20:59:40 <ehird> ais523: http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html
20:59:41 <ais523> and the funny thing is, with modules, Linux managed to work around many of the disadvantages of being monolithic
21:00:01 <ehird> although it was restarted in 2006, it seems
21:00:03 <AnMaster> ehird, why did he flame linux btw
21:00:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude! What is UP with your SCROLLBACK?
21:00:22 <ehird> You never seem to use it...
21:00:23 <pikhq> ais523: Linux is an example of good monolithic design.
21:00:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I was searching on wikipedia for it
21:00:37 <pikhq> I suspect a very sophisticated microkernel could be better, but *shrug*.
21:00:41 <ais523> oh, apparently, according to lingbot, "Tanenbaum" in German translates to "apertium" in English, Swedish, /and/ French
21:00:55 <ehird> pikhq: Microkernels are evil.
21:00:58 <pikhq> I'm just happy using a well-designed kernel.
21:01:01 <ehird> So's monolithic kernels.
21:01:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Minix style, bitch. ;)
21:01:30 <ais523> now I'm curious as to what "apertium" means, it looks vaguely Latin
21:01:32 <ehird> http://tunes.org/cliki/microkernel_20debate.html
21:01:36 <AnMaster> ais523, um I suspect a bug: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apertium
21:01:43 <AnMaster> it is a translation software it seems
21:01:45 <ehird> & http://tunes.org/cliki/kernel.html
21:01:50 <ehird> & http://tunes.org/cliki/no-kernel.html
21:01:54 <ais523> [21:01] <ais523> lingbot: en de "test"?
21:01:55 <ais523> [21:01] <lingbot> ais523: "Test" (en to de, apertium)
21:02:00 <ais523> I think it's a bug too
21:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is using that software, but it is buggy?
21:04:05 <ais523> ehird: according to that page you linked, NT's a microkernel
21:04:15 <ehird> according to it, NT was originally designed as a microkernel
21:04:21 <ehird> but grew into a monolithic one
21:04:30 <ehird> and then it says that was disputed by an NT architect
21:05:09 <ais523> heh, Tanenbaum seems to hate x86 just as much as everyone else
21:06:02 <ehird> But in all honesty, I would
21:06:03 <ehird> suggest that people who want a **MODERN** "free" OS look around for a
21:06:03 <ehird> microkernel-based, portable OS, like maybe GNU or something like that.
21:06:09 <ehird> I love how GNU was a reasonable OS proposition for the future in 1992
21:06:44 <ais523> maybe it would have been, if more people worked on it
21:06:55 <ehird> it'd have been terribly bloated
21:07:00 <ais523> I wonder if there's anything intrinsically wrong with Hurd, or just if it never caught on
21:07:03 <ais523> but then... GNU design
21:07:07 <ais523> ah yes, it would never have caught on
21:07:52 <ehird> ais523: have you read the HURD design?
21:08:04 <ais523> ehird: bits of it, but I think my brain shut off
21:08:15 <ais523> AnMaster: GNU programs tend to get bloated over time
21:08:16 <ehird> it involves kernels being kernels among other kernels while a centralized kernel manages them in a kernel way
21:08:26 <ehird> and then you get injected with LSD
21:08:31 <ais523> which is strange, as other open-source software doesn't
21:08:36 <ehird> (part of the bootup phrase, I thikn)
21:09:07 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even know
21:09:27 <ehird> It's not anything I've seen before
21:09:56 <ehird> heh, it has a server with the express purpose of handling crashes
21:10:35 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/env: python -O: No such file or directory
21:10:47 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not fail
21:11:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it's your system having an arbitrary limitation
21:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you can only give one parameter on that line
21:11:12 <ehird> only one is guaranteed, I think
21:11:19 <ehird> but the only reason more wouldn't work is due to artificial limitation
21:11:24 <ehird> AnMaster: _guaranteed_
21:11:26 <ehird> more isn't invalid
21:11:44 <ais523> AnMaster: fail, /usr/bin/env is more than 8 letters long
21:11:55 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's an artificial POSIX limitation
21:12:07 <ehird> POSIX has no limitation on it
21:12:12 <ehird> it just states that you're only guaranteed one argument
21:12:17 <ehird> if you can't handle more, your kernel sucks
21:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, going to stay on OS X then
21:12:44 <ehird> moving to a PC != the linux kernel is good
21:12:47 <ais523> ah, it seems that the limit's 32
21:13:03 <ais523> as in, some old shells will cut off #! lines after 32 characters
21:13:10 <ais523> man perlrun warns about that
21:13:17 <ais523> in case your command-line options get cut in half
21:13:22 <ais523> (Perl parses #! lines itself)
21:13:22 <AnMaster> Another way that some historical implementations handle shell scripts is by recognizing the first
21:13:22 <AnMaster> two bytes of the file as the character string "#!" and using the remainder of the first line of the
21:13:22 <AnMaster> file as the name of the command interpreter to execute.
21:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: if that's true, then /usr/bin/env is invalid
21:13:43 <ehird> as it'd mean you can't specify any arguments
21:13:45 <ehird> so sir, the fail is on you
21:14:00 <ais523> incidentally, would just #!python work?
21:14:24 <ais523> as in, does it do a path search for the executable you ask, or does it just go to the place you ask/
21:14:29 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % cat>a
21:14:33 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % chmod +x a
21:14:34 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ./a
21:14:36 <ehird> zsh: ./a: bad interpreter: python: no such file or directory
21:15:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the wrapper script is broken on Linux.
21:15:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, needs to be fixed
21:15:26 <ehird> AnMaster: can I point out some hypocrisy here?
21:15:40 <ehird> you refuse to support systems that don't support POSIX properly. why should lifthrasiir make up for a deficiency in your kernel?
21:16:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I support systems that support what POSIX + XSI requires
21:16:10 <AnMaster> and this is more than what POSIX + XSI requires
21:16:19 <ehird> he supports systems that don't have artificial limitations on #! arguments
21:16:43 <ais523> whereas with C-INTERCAL, I aim to eventually support anything which has a program vaguely resembling a C compiler
21:16:47 <ais523> although I'm not there yet
21:16:59 <AnMaster> 1. The shell reads its input from a file (see sh), from the −c option or from the system( ) and
21:16:59 <AnMaster> popen( ) functions defined in the System Interfaces volume of POSIX.1-2008. If the first
21:16:59 <AnMaster> line of a file of shell commands starts with the characters "#!", the results are
21:17:12 <AnMaster> ais523, the section on the shell
21:17:24 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, so depending on #!-lines is unportable
21:17:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: the german spelling is "Tannenbaum"
21:17:32 <ehird> you're digging yourself into a hole here, AnMaster
21:17:42 <ehird> this is exactly why strict POSIX compliance is bullshit
21:17:44 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster: wait, that's about calling a shell with a file starting #! as its argument
21:17:52 <ais523> that's different from running a program starting #!
21:17:57 <ehird> ais523: are you sure?
21:17:59 <ais523> unless the #! line specifies a shell
21:17:59 <ehird> ./a executes the shell on a
21:18:12 <ais523> ehird: no, because what if it's a binary?
21:18:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I fail to see why that's obvious
21:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, because XSH is system interfaces, the C API.
21:19:17 <ehird> SH means system interfaces
21:19:20 <ais523> yes, but I don't imagine that that's common knowledge
21:19:21 <AnMaster> ais523, POSIX comes in 4 volumes...
21:19:32 <ais523> so something that depends on it is not "obvious"
21:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, XCU means "Shell and Utilities"
21:19:59 <ehird> C stands for Shell
21:19:59 <ais523> that's like saying that #1 $ #1 equals #3, obviously
21:20:49 <AnMaster> XBD Is Base Defintion. Says stuff like "mount point" being an implementation defined concept
21:21:35 <ehird> ais523: We should make a DS9K implementation of POSIX
21:21:41 <ehird> just to trample on everyone touting POSIX compliance
21:21:45 <ehird> I'd do it on my own, but you're eviller
21:21:50 <ehird> ais523: that's more a DS9King of the tests
21:22:16 <ehird> something that'd pass a stock POSIX test suite run by an unbiased tester, but still be completely broken on more or less anything
21:22:22 <ais523> but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything?
21:25:56 <ehird> ais523: would it be possible to implement posix in user-mode?
21:25:59 <ehird> completely compliant
21:26:13 <ais523> ehird: I don't see why not, so long as you can implement devices somehow
21:26:33 <ehird> ais523: just map them to the host devices
21:26:37 <ehird> wait, which devices
21:26:42 <ehird> or physical I/O devices
21:26:52 <ehird> you'd have your own in-memory FS, ofc
21:26:54 <ais523> from the point of view of the testsuite
21:28:03 <ehird> BA-K-47: America's No. 1 bacon-based assault rifle
21:28:04 <ais523> and now it's hit Slashdot: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/19/1846258&from=rss
21:28:05 <ehird> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2009/05/bak47-the-gun-that-will-revolt-and-defeat-terrorists.html
21:28:13 <ais523> I have no idea if I'm responsible for all this or not...
21:28:52 <ais523> can't be bothered, and don't have a good way to ask
21:29:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
21:31:30 <ehird> ais523: a kernel that can run in user-mode would be interesting
21:31:41 <ehird> like, it requires a basis of functions that either map to the host OS or the hardware
21:31:46 <ehird> and the rest of the kernel is built on top of them
21:31:56 <ehird> so you could, say, do a VPS or a jail really cheaply
21:32:01 <ais523> ehird: that's basically how gcc-bf's fake operating system works
21:32:14 <ehird> right, but it could be both usermode and hardware
21:32:36 <ais523> I love the way I implemented a filesystem
21:32:50 <ais523> it's just a dictionary of file against file contents, implemented using linear search
21:32:56 <ais523> possibly the world's worst filesystem
21:33:23 <ehird> ais523: oh, with user-mode posix, you could run a standard filesystem on a real harddisk
21:33:29 <pikhq> ehird: So, something like UML?
21:33:36 <ehird> although you'd probably want to do it in a big file, to avoid the whole root thing
21:33:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
21:33:39 <ehird> and for convenience
21:33:47 * pikhq waveth at the Rodger
21:33:49 <ehird> pikhq: it just emulates the hardware for linux, doesn't it?
21:33:55 <ehird> not actually run a kernel properly tuned to usermodeity
21:34:22 <pikhq> ehird: It's not very well-tuned, but it does implement everything in terms of Linux system calls.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> but you mean, an implementation that's more interesting than ENOTIMPLEMENTED as a return value for everything? <-- isn't allowed for most stuff in 2008
21:34:32 <ehird> pikhq: eh, even so
21:34:39 <AnMaster> for example in POSX 2008 mmap() is required
21:34:44 <pikhq> And it's been ported to Cygwin before. I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to abstract it further.
21:35:30 <pikhq> Hmm. A usermode POSIX kernel would be pretty cool to implement, actually.
21:35:34 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, have you been away?
21:35:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm very much enjoying the public reaction to Alpha- "This seems to be pretty useless. It cannot tell me how many cigarettes would fit between the earth and the sun, the nutritional value of Lindsay Lohan, or how big Shaq would have to be to dunk the moon."
21:35:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Just not in this channel.
21:35:56 <ais523> AnMaster: mmap doesn't force you to map anywhere in particular in memory, though, does it?
21:36:20 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: It also can't plot the distance to jupiter over time, although it can give you the distance to jupiter in a given year. Don't make excuses for its shittiness.
21:36:31 <ehird> And yes, I worded it every which way.
21:36:31 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, I just never noticed you left.
21:36:36 <ais523> also, children can't legally use it, or so the terms of service claim
21:36:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I leave that to the OS. by passing a NULL pointer
21:36:51 <ais523> AnMaster: so couldn't you just allocate a bitmap and copy the file into it, and then copy the bitmap back into the file when it closed?
21:36:52 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I'm mostly on irc.esper.net these days, so I just haven't bothered to connect to freenode as well
21:37:25 <ais523> it would be inefficient; but no reason why you can't implement mmap in userspace
21:37:31 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can handle the updates on writes from other processes correctly
21:37:34 <ais523> attempts to map into a particular location would presumably always be rejected
21:37:43 <ais523> AnMaster: you could commit the file at every context switch
21:37:51 <ais523> that would be /really/ inefficient, but correct I think
21:38:07 <ais523> it would make mmap rather unusuable, but if this is meant to be a DS9K, why not?
21:38:23 <AnMaster> ais523, but I fail to see how it would break any app relying on common behaviour. Would just make them slow.
21:38:28 <ehird> ais523: it seems this has split into two; DS9Ksix and Usersix
21:38:36 <RodgerTheGreat> a neural-network backpropagation trainer in postscript!
21:38:38 <pikhq> Ah, the postscript neural network.
21:38:40 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: *clicks, browser freezes*
21:38:48 <ehird> Neural networks are pretty simpl
21:39:47 <ais523> ehird: about your link a couple of screens back, there was a story on Slashdot a few months ago about how someone had managed to cut through metal with a piece of bacon
21:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and anyway I rely on reading different member of union having a sensible result. Should anyone actually run into real issues with it for cfunge I could add a memcpy() variant as a compile time option.
21:39:54 <ais523> by making it really hot, or something
21:39:57 <AnMaster> but then I want actual proof for it failing
21:40:29 <pikhq> You know what'd be cool to build? A computer using cordwood construction.
21:40:34 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg
21:40:46 <ais523> AnMaster: using unions for type punning is legal, IIRC, because that's what they were designed for
21:41:04 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc reading from different member is implementation defined
21:41:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: High-density circuit design using wire-ended components.
21:42:00 <pikhq> You stick the components between two circuit boards. ;)
21:42:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, hard to solder I imagine
21:42:29 <RodgerTheGreat> actually not too bad to solder, but a bitch to assemble on any kind of scale
21:42:29 <pikhq> Even harder how it was originally done.
21:42:48 <ais523> one C weirdness: you can use different sorts of pointers to point to different things, but all pointers to unions must have the same representation no matter what sort of union it is
21:42:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the difficulty in aligning components grows exponentially relative to the number of components
21:43:33 <ais523> AnMaster: what exactly are you unioning?
21:43:34 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: At the time, your alternatives for high-density circuit design were non-existent.
21:43:47 <pikhq> This is before surface-mounted components and integrated circuits.
21:44:04 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you know float's 32 bits long
21:44:08 <ais523> that's obviously unportable
21:44:11 <pikhq> And now, you'd only do it for similar reasons to doing a wire-wrapped computer.
21:44:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: C doesn't say it's IEEE.
21:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: C doesn't demand IEE representation
21:44:47 <RodgerTheGreat> well, wire-wrapping has some distinct mechanical advantages that can occasionally make it worthwhile
21:44:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and I already replied to why
21:45:08 <pikhq> And floats are often-times done using x87 instructions.
21:45:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I think building a CPU as a freeformed circuit would be beautiful and impressive
21:45:21 <pikhq> Which are fucking crazy, instead of IEEE.
21:45:41 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Mmm, yeah.
21:45:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. But as long as float are 32 bits I'm happy. Anyway FPDP and FPSP won't work if the floats/doubles are of other sizes
21:46:25 <RodgerTheGreat> if I had more EE chops I'd totally do it. If someone designed one that seemed to be on a feasible scale I'd help assemble it
21:46:26 <ais523> ok, using a union for type-punning is permitted by 6.5.7, but there may be other reasons it's illegal
21:46:40 <AnMaster> ais523, C99 Annex F (normative)
21:46:42 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Same.
21:46:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I could probably build one out of TTL logic chips, but that seems like cheating
21:47:10 <AnMaster> ais523, exact behaviour is implementation defined iirc
21:47:25 <pikhq> I dunno. Free-form even with TTL logic would be impressive.
21:47:43 <pikhq> Actually, if you could build one with TTL logic chips, you could probably hand-build one.
21:47:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what section did you really mean
21:48:01 <pikhq> Surely you could just get a good design for logic gates instead?
21:49:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I meant 6.5.7, unfortunately there are two versions of the C standard which are identical apart from section numberin
21:50:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what section name did you mean
21:50:43 <ais523> let me finish reading, then I'll tell you
21:50:50 <ais523> and I don't know offhand, I'd have to go back and look
21:50:51 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_80487
21:51:00 <pikhq> ... That is one bizarre 'coprocessor'.
21:51:50 <pikhq> Your i487 SX could in theory be a downgrade. XD
21:52:46 <pikhq> Your previous 486 SX.
21:52:58 <pikhq> There was more than one clock speed on those. :p
21:53:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, surely you needed matching speeds?
21:54:04 <pikhq> ais523: 'Coprocessor', since by inserting it, you disable the 80486 on your motherboard.
21:54:18 <ais523> it's more an instead-processor
21:54:33 <pikhq> Thus the scare quotes.
21:54:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intel_Pentium_III_Katmai.jpg
21:54:55 <AnMaster> that's one strange CPU mounting
21:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> most PIIs were set up like that, and a lot of Sun's Ultra CPUs mounted the same way
21:56:17 <AnMaster> RodgerTheGreat, err. I have a P3 that is normal ZIF mounting
21:56:21 <pikhq> Not was weird as the Slot 1 -> Socket something adaptors that you could use for Celerons...
21:57:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_III_on_motherboard.jpg ?
21:57:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm confused: informative appendix J says that section 6.2.6.1 says that reading from a union member you didn't last store into is unspecified
21:57:52 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
21:58:03 <ais523> but I can't see a statement to that effect anywhere in section 6.2.6.1
21:58:22 <AnMaster> 6.2.6 Representations of types
21:58:28 <AnMaster> are we talking about the same one this time?
21:58:51 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
21:59:34 <AnMaster> 7 When a value is stored in a member of an object of union type, the bytes of the object
21:59:34 <AnMaster> representation that do not correspond to that member but do correspond to other members
22:00:12 <ais523> AnMaster: no, not that
22:00:19 <ais523> that's mentioned elsewhere in appendix J
22:00:24 <AnMaster> ais523, then what does the quoted bit imply
22:00:36 <ais523> it means, that say you have a union of a short and a long
22:00:45 <ais523> then if you assign to the short, the bits of the long you didn't assign to end up unspecified
22:00:56 <ais523> which makes sense I suppose
22:01:06 <ais523> although leaving them the same would be more useful
22:01:15 <fizzie> The slot-mountable Pentiums always reminded me of NES game carts.
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, say you can only write a 16 bits at once
22:02:27 <ais523> that's why it's done that way
22:02:42 <ais523> the C standard is designed to allow implementations to be close to the hardware if they want to
22:02:45 <AnMaster> ais523, or maybe reading/writing word size is faster, even if you can still do individual bytes
22:02:51 <ais523> and do to weird high-level stuff too, if they want to
22:03:28 <AnMaster> ais523, you wrote a backend for it. Surely you know!
22:04:15 <ais523> you don't need to understand all of gcc in order to write bits of it
22:04:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: A backend just does RTL->machine code translation.
22:05:03 <pikhq> RTL doesn't tell you much about how it does C.
22:05:22 <ais523> pikhq: actually, the backend generates the RTL too
22:05:45 <ais523> gcc's architecture is interesting
22:05:51 <ais523> you create templates that it converts standard opcodes into
22:05:56 <ais523> like addition, for instance
22:06:07 <ais523> it then pattern-matches the templates you generated to create asm
22:06:21 <ais523> but the RTL itself is modified in between
22:06:23 <AnMaster> ais523, what about peep hole optimising
22:06:30 <ais523> that's done on the RTL, normally
22:06:35 <ais523> although you can do it on the asm if you really want to
22:06:40 <AnMaster> yes and it is partly arch specific
22:07:00 <AnMaster> <ais523> but the RTL itself is modified in between <-- by what
22:07:14 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc, of course
22:07:17 <ais523> the less backendy bits
22:07:26 <ais523> register allocation, mostly
22:07:30 <ais523> and also various optimisations
22:07:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:07:47 <AnMaster> ais523, why was tha backend involved before that
22:08:13 <ais523> AnMaster: because it generates the sort of RTL that works well on the target platform
22:08:38 <ais523> the idea is that say, if you're faster at bitshifts than addition
22:08:45 <ais523> you'll generate a bitshift for x+X
22:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so that is where you turn mov 0,%eax into xor %eax,%eax ?
22:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: no! the mov 0,%eax is never generated
22:09:27 <ais523> well, the conversion works differently at different optimisation levels, it's a mess
22:09:38 <ais523> and the x86 code is /especially/ a mess
22:09:53 <ais523> presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero"
22:10:02 <fizzie> Since sourcefurge's been talked about here occasionally, and not everyone has a project there I guess, here's a bit of information that was emailed today: "Discussion Forums will be replaced by phpBB."
22:10:11 <ais523> yes, that was mentioned earlier
22:10:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> presumably they couldn't be bothered to add a new constraint letter for "compile-time constant zero" <-- what has this got to do with the inline asm
22:10:24 <AnMaster> or do they have that elsewhere too
22:10:37 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc is very monolithic, OK, different parts affect other different parts
22:10:45 <ais523> the constraint letters are used by the pattern-matcher
22:11:00 <AnMaster> ais523, are they the same as the inline asm constraint letters?
22:11:01 <ais523> and also by inline asm
22:11:11 <AnMaster> yeah then I know what you are talking about
22:11:22 <ais523> the inline asm isn't their main use
22:11:27 <ais523> they're /all over the place/ in the actual backend
22:11:49 <ais523> and many of the letters, such as "compile-time constant zero", are not particularly useful in inline asm
22:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, they are a pain figuring out if you meant m, =m =&m or whatever
22:11:59 <ais523> because if you know that something's a constant zero, why did you not just write a zero in your code
22:12:14 <ais523> I think so, but I don't deal with the inline asm syntax all that much
22:12:23 <ais523> the punctuation marks are different there, even though the letters are the same
22:14:26 <AnMaster> ais523, btw why is it unspecified if char is signed or unsigned without qualifier
22:14:34 <AnMaster> since apart from that all are signed
22:14:44 <ais523> AnMaster: inconsistency between past implementations
22:14:48 <ais523> C89 modeled existing practice
22:15:02 <AnMaster> ais523, but all did signed for int?
22:15:03 <ais523> the idea in writing C89 was that as many existing programs as possible should be C89-compatible without changes
22:15:07 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently so
22:15:32 <AnMaster> how much shorter would C99 become if you removed all such old compat...
22:16:44 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, it is interesting that gcc shuts up about type punning by pointer if you cast the pointer to void in between
22:17:07 <ais523> AnMaster: doing something extra-verbosely is normally taken by compilers as a hint to shut up
22:17:13 <ais523> like putting double-parens around an assignment
22:17:35 <AnMaster> ((const v4sf*)(const void*)&my_const_v4si);
22:17:43 <ais523> because it shows that you meant it deliberately
22:17:47 <AnMaster> well I missed one pair of parantheses there
22:17:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I did in that case
22:18:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and I deference it just outside
22:18:39 <AnMaster> __builtin_ia32_movntps(((float*)(void*)&cfun_static_space) + i*4,
22:18:39 <AnMaster> *((const v4sf*)(const void*)&fspace_vector_init));
22:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, takes quite a bit to make it shut up
22:22:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:24:06 <AnMaster> ais523, pattern matching seems like the best way to implement most compilers to me
22:24:20 <AnMaster> makes it easy to do in a lot of the cases
22:24:36 <ehird> pentium 3 mounting is fun
22:24:40 <ehird> because it's rather silly
22:24:45 <ehird> i mean, why a slot?
22:24:52 <AnMaster> ehird, because not all p3 had that
22:25:10 <AnMaster> ehird, P2 did have the same thing as the katmais iirc
22:25:12 <ehird> http://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=amd_hd4770&image=amd_rv740_slide3_lrg World's most advanced graphics manufacturing process, revolving around terrible kerning.
22:25:20 <ehird> Surely AMD could do better than that.
22:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, even I notice the issues with the I in the second entry
22:26:22 <fizzie> It would be nice if they could spell "semiconductor".
22:26:47 <pikhq> Such terrible kerning.
22:26:50 <ehird> It's the announcement of the 4770.
22:26:56 <ehird> Well, one page of it.
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22:27:13 <AnMaster> ehird, only upper case "I" seems affected
22:27:16 <ehird> It's appealing to the mainstream market it's aimed at, clearly.
22:27:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the whole kerning is pretty terrible but the uppercase I is the most noticable
22:27:35 <ais523> that isn't even a kerning fail
22:27:44 <ais523> that's just having the letter I far too wide
22:27:44 <ehird> ais523: it's kerning
22:27:58 <ais523> ehird: kerning's to do with combinations of two letters
22:28:52 <ehird> but maybe pedantically it's not
22:29:16 <ehird> kerning = the changing of letter spacing based on the text instead of a constant tracking, IMO
22:29:23 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kerning.png
22:29:34 <pikhq> If there was good kerning, it would be able to get rid of that extra space.
22:29:40 <pikhq> So, bad kerning *and* font design.
22:29:47 <ehird> I think the font is verdana
22:29:52 <ehird> which doesn't have a fucked up uppercase I
22:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
22:30:05 <ehird> even so - using verdana in a product announcement?
22:30:09 <ehird> who _designed_ this shit?
22:30:22 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I'm of the opinion it's rather silly
22:30:26 <ehird> sockets look nicer :P
22:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adapter_slot1-socket.jpg
22:30:46 <ehird> is it a socket→slot adapter?
22:30:49 <ais523> it doesn't seem to mess up lowercase i...
22:31:02 <fizzie> I like it, again because http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg looks like a game cartridge.
22:31:13 <ehird> fizzie: oh, it looks nice, and I agree
22:31:20 <ehird> I just don't think it's a particularly good way to do a processor
22:31:21 <fizzie> It's like it's calling me to blow on the contacts before I stick it in.
22:31:23 <ehird> for instance, what about heatsinks and fans?
22:31:35 <ehird> you can't really do much when it's all encased in a slot
22:31:38 <FireFly> Slot_1 made me think of the DS
22:31:52 <ehird> AnMaster: when game catridges lied around
22:32:01 <ehird> so you blew at the contacts before putting them in
22:32:03 <ehird> otherwise you'd get glitches
22:32:13 <AnMaster> not blow away in a destructive way
22:32:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think he meant he performed oral sex on game cartridges
22:32:20 <ehird> dammit, you ruined my joke with timing
22:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant as in "blow up"
22:33:16 <AnMaster> anyway why are the contacts hidden on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pentium_II_front.jpg
22:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the contacts doesn't stick out
22:34:41 <FireFly> Probably to protect against damage/dust/stuff?
22:34:46 <ehird> AnMaster: most game slots are like that
22:34:47 <fizzie> That's exactly what makes it look like a game cartridge.
22:35:02 <AnMaster> what about the holes on CF cards
22:35:12 <AnMaster> you don't need to blow stuff clean there usually?
22:35:19 <AnMaster> maybe because they are so small
22:36:12 <AnMaster> what is the holgram thingy there for
22:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: not a hologam
22:36:36 <ehird> it's a diagram of the chip
22:36:44 <ehird> but yes, for kewlness
22:36:53 <AnMaster> read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_1
22:36:59 <ehird> AnMaster: like this one for the nehalem: http://images.apple.com/macpro/images/overview_features_processor20090303.png
22:37:03 <ehird> well, it may be a hologram
22:37:08 <ehird> but it has the design of the chip on it
22:37:12 <FireFly> Ooh, there's yet another SD standard, after SDHC?
22:37:23 <ehird> FireFly: exciting!
22:37:34 <ehird> The Secure Digital Extended Capacity (SDXC) format was unveiled at CES 2009. The maximum capacity defined for SDXC cards is 2 TB (2048 GB). SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document.
22:37:42 <AnMaster> FireFly, isn't it closed spec?
22:38:13 <pikhq> Ah, Compact Flash.
22:38:23 <fizzie> There might be some sort of official reason along the lines of assuring you that you're getting the a real processor and not just some old dusty pentium some counterfeiter's done a plastic slot case for. Maybe.
22:38:24 <ehird> I prefer USB drives :-P
22:38:25 <AnMaster> most high end cameras seem to prefer CF
22:38:27 <pikhq> FireFly: Compact Flash is really the better format. ;)
22:38:28 <FireFly> stuff = Camera, DS, other stuff
22:38:36 <ehird> Since they come up to 128GB-that-you-can-actually-use
22:38:51 <fizzie> CF is the physically-larger format, though.
22:38:55 <FireFly> Maybe, but not the stuff I use :P
22:38:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean "can actually use"?
22:39:03 <ehird> AnMaster: " SDHC cards also have a maximum capacity of 2 TB based on the card data structures, but this is artificially limited to 32 GB by the SD 2.0 document."
22:39:10 <pikhq> fizzie: You can get freaking hard drives in CF format, though.
22:39:10 <ehird> You can only use 32GB of SDcard.
22:39:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is still way smaller than the camera battery
22:39:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's uncomfortably large for something like a mobile phone, though. (Which -- surprise, surprise -- might be why no mobile phones use it.)
22:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird, SD sure. But who cares about SD
22:39:57 <FireFly> I want a really huge SD micro card :(
22:40:03 <ehird> AnMaster: People with a camera that isn't high-end.
22:40:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, I have no idea why I would want it in a phone
22:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, um my mobile uses some other card
22:40:34 <ehird> Your mobile, perhaps.
22:41:01 <AnMaster> but I don't have a card for it
22:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Currently, CF is only up to about 100GB. The limit, though is something like petabytes...
22:41:19 <AnMaster> the built in 30 MB is enough for the address book
22:41:46 <FireFly> MicroSDs are quite extremely small, thought
22:41:48 <fizzie> MicroSD might be the most common mobile phone thing nowadays; Nokia had a lot of (or at least some) MMC using models at some point, though.
22:42:10 <FireFly> I mean, I'm surprised how you can fit 8 gig in something as thin as a nail
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22:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, pretty sure it is higher than most though
22:43:05 <fizzie> What's amusing is that they still show CF card speeds in "Nx", where N is the 150kbps audio-CD data rate.
22:43:14 <pikhq> Future revisions will implement SATA.
22:43:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, so new cards won't work on my current camera?
22:44:01 <pikhq> It will be a different, similar format.
22:44:38 <pikhq> CFast will use a standard SATA data connector and a slightly different power connector.
22:44:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, that will be quite a large connector
22:45:29 <pikhq> I'd expect a much smaller power connector.
22:45:40 <fizzie> That's the interface speed, though. I don't think I've seen advertised speed more than something like "300x", which would mean 45Mbps.
22:46:01 <pikhq> fizzie: That's because it's Flash.
22:46:20 <pikhq> A microdrive can probably hit faster speeds.
22:46:45 <AnMaster> I thought flash was faster than harddrives?
22:46:47 <fizzie> They have that smaller "microsata" connector (not sure about standardization status there), wonder why not use that in some SATA-based CF-y thing.
22:46:48 <pikhq> Or maybe I'm being dumb.
22:46:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, SSDs are.
22:47:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: An SSD is, flash memory is not generally.
22:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't those basically the same but done as harddrives instead of flash cards?
22:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really.
22:47:52 <ehird> I'm not too certain; ask pikhq.
22:48:24 <fizzie> More flash chips, for one thing.
22:48:35 <fizzie> You can write to/read from multiple in parallel.
22:48:53 <pikhq> They use smaller, faster chips.
22:50:15 <pikhq> Flash memory with large capacity stores more than one bit in each flash cell.
22:50:27 <pikhq> This gets a lot of storage, but is slower.
22:50:44 <ehird> pikhq: Nope, actually.
22:50:49 <ehird> the X25-M is about as performant as the X25-E.
22:50:51 <ehird> Sometimes even moreso.
22:51:02 <ehird> iirc, if you do a fuckton of sequential reads/writes it can be faster, but not by much
22:53:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm it should be safe to open the case of a SSD right (while it is definitely unsafe to do that in case of a harddrive!)
22:53:54 <pikhq> A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes.
22:54:10 <ehird> Anand did that his SSD reviews.
22:54:18 <ehird> 's just flash memory + a controller.
22:54:29 <ehird> Anand Lal Shimpi of anandtech.com
22:54:32 <pikhq> (hard drive doesn't have to seek for the first, and for the second, the hard drive doesn't have to do 1MB-granularity writes)
22:54:35 <ehird> The author of the ever-helpful SSD Anthology
22:54:52 <ehird> 22:53 pikhq: A hard drive is still somewhat faster for sequential operations, and a hard drive is much, much faster for small writes.
22:55:02 <ehird> the X25-M is faster than harddrives in every case.
22:55:09 <ehird> For sequential reads and writes, for random reads and writes.
22:55:16 <ehird> It's OPTIMIZED for tiny writes, chrissake!
22:55:24 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531
22:55:33 <ehird> read the 31 pages or just trust me
22:55:39 <ehird> that is independent
22:55:44 <ehird> no ties to Intel or anything
22:56:00 <ehird> or buy an ssd and try it yourself
22:56:03 <pikhq> Is the X25-M Flash memory or battery-backed RAM?
22:56:06 <ehird> pikhq: flash memory
22:56:12 <ehird> there's a reason it's recommended as a disk drive:
22:56:16 <ehird> it's really really fast on <4KB random write
22:56:26 <ehird> (and everything else, but especially so)
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22:57:50 <pikhq> ehird: ... That X25-M is slower for sequential writes.
22:58:06 <pikhq> And by "small writes", I should've said "for a single small write at a time".
22:58:25 <ehird> for random reads/writes, an SSD is definitely way faster
22:58:39 <pikhq> Obviously, if you're doing more than one at a time, the SSD is guaranteed to be faster.
22:58:49 <ehird> pikhq: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18640.png
22:58:56 <ehird> The x25-E is faster there
22:59:00 <ehird> Which is still an SSD
22:59:24 <ehird> so it's MLC that does that
22:59:30 <ehird> still, you don't do sequential writes much on an OS drive
22:59:39 <ehird> and the sequential read performance is still great: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18639.png
22:59:47 <ehird> and the random read/write performance blows everything else out of the water
22:59:49 <pikhq> Okay, the X25-E is just stunning.
23:00:07 <ehird> so you get about 30MB/sec slower than a 5400rpm HD with an X25-M when doing the rare operation of big sequential writes
23:00:16 <ehird> that's not really a big deal at all
23:00:37 <ehird> since it's a rare operation on an OS drive, and not actually all that much slower than HDs
23:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: sequential WRIT
23:00:44 * pikhq does sequential writes somewhat often. :p
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23:01:01 <ehird> pikhq: You do a bajillion random writes every time you load a page in your browser.
23:01:14 <ehird> And a bajillion random reads when you start a program.
23:01:30 <ehird> Large sequential writes are stunningly rare in comparison to everything else an OS drive does.
23:01:42 <fizzie> I would think the whole cache thing would mitigate the write issues somewhat, especially given that you're likely to have 6 gigabytes of memory free for caching data.
23:01:50 <fizzie> It's not like firefox's going to sync() after each write.
23:01:52 <pikhq> Why the fucking hell would a browser do random writes to your hard drive?
23:01:56 <ehird> pikhq: Dude. Cache.
23:02:04 <ehird> pikhq: Look at firefox sometime.
23:02:10 <ais523> fizzie: actually, a bug in firefox 3 rc meant it /did/, on Linux
23:02:11 <ehird> It does a ridiculous amounts of writes per page loaded.
23:02:13 <pikhq> Browsers tend to keep cache in RAM and then later commit it to disk.
23:02:14 <ehird> ais523: he was joking
23:02:30 <pikhq> The random reads, though, is a good point.
23:02:38 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, if you're seriously arguing that an HD is faster than an SSD for OS drives
23:02:44 <ehird> go buy an SSD, and pop it in your machine, and copy your OS over.
23:02:52 <ehird> and then weep at the performance ;-)
23:03:00 <ehird> pikhq: you seemed to be implying it
23:03:00 <pikhq> I'm just saying that an SSD isn't better in all cases.
23:03:13 <ehird> It's not better when you're doing large sequential writes and totally need max speed on them.
23:03:14 <pikhq> And I stand corrected with that X25-E.
23:03:20 <ehird> Which is terribly rare, to be honest.
23:03:27 <pikhq> That's just stunning.
23:03:35 <ehird> pikhq: Yes; but the X25-E is expensive. 64GB max space, for the cost of the 160GB M one.
23:03:46 <ehird> And the M beats it slightly on the more conventional operations quite a bit.
23:03:50 <pikhq> Eh, not worth it yet, but it will be.
23:04:01 <ehird> Nah; MLC is the way forward.
23:04:05 <pikhq> For now, I'll content myself with cheap magnetic disks.
23:04:08 <ehird> Except in enterprise server environments.
23:04:11 <ehird> Which is the target market of the _E.
23:04:33 <ehird> pikhq: Have fun with that; I'll be attempting to snap my fingers fast enough to measure the opening speed of applications.
23:05:00 <fizzie> I don't really see how the opening speed of applications is relevant at all, but I guess that might be just my peculiar use case.
23:05:09 <pikhq> ehird: I'll be holding onto my money.
23:05:21 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it's not; let's say operating speed of applications.
23:05:23 <ehird> But that's so vague.
23:05:41 <pikhq> "And this stack of bills went towards my education instead..."
23:05:48 <ehird> pikhq: I'll be spending thousands on every other part of my machine and thus making the reasonable decision for a high-end assembly :-P
23:06:03 <pikhq> ehird: Well, sure, if you're spending thousands.
23:06:21 <pikhq> Get a single SSD and a bunch of cheap disks for bulk storage.
23:06:22 <ehird> 'snot my fault "hardware is cheap" only applies relatively.
23:06:32 <pikhq> (or if you're spending tens of thousands, bunch of pricy SSDs)
23:06:38 <ehird> pikhq: Single SSD on / + single 2TB disk on /home/ehird/media.
23:06:55 <pikhq> ehird: That's a high-end setup there.
23:07:14 <ehird> pikhq: a 2TB 7.5k RPM drive actually only costs around ~$170
23:07:23 <ehird> which is just a little more than a 1TB drive
23:07:41 <ehird> 1TB drives are about $130
23:07:42 <pikhq> 1TB drives are under a hundred.
23:07:43 <fizzie> I don't actually think the operating speed of applications is relevant for me either, since I don't do much waiting; I guess I could be mildly pleased with faster compilation times, though.
23:07:48 <ehird> Under a hundred? Where?
23:08:03 <ehird> fizzie: Well, if you're totally satisfied with performance, obviously increasing it isn't going to satisfy you.
23:08:22 <pikhq> fizzie: Compilation is not very disk-bound, though.
23:08:28 <Deewiant> Over here 1TB is around 100 €, 1.5TB is around 130-140 €, 2TB is around 300 €
23:08:32 <ehird> fizzie: An SSD is about general snappiness.
23:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, matters for boot mostly
23:08:57 <ehird> pikhq: OK, cheapest 1TB drive on newegg is $79.99
23:09:00 <ehird> so I stand corrected
23:09:03 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it matters for everything
23:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, once system is up I tend to use the same running set of apps all the time
23:09:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: 81.90 eur ($112 approx.) seems to be the cheapest 1TB drive in verkkokauppa.com. But Finland's not a cheap place for hardware. :/
23:09:25 <ehird> it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting
23:09:28 <ehird> which is huge, psychologically
23:09:34 <Deewiant> verkkokauppa.com is what I was looking at, too
23:09:39 <pikhq> So, that $170 2TB drive is more than twice the cost of a 1TB drive. ;)
23:09:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the de-facto standard.
23:09:51 <ehird> pikhq: a cheap one.
23:09:57 <Deewiant> And that 81.9 € one is 5400 RPM
23:09:58 <ehird> $130 seems to be more common
23:10:17 <Deewiant> And yeah, getting hardware in Finland sucks.
23:10:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: The 82.90 is 7200 RPM.
23:10:56 <Deewiant> Getting hardware in continental Europe sucks in general.
23:11:06 <ehird> Deewiant: It seems like buying overseas and paying the shipping could be cheaper for finns.
23:11:13 <fizzie> They do advertise a lower power usage for the 5400 RPM model.
23:11:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Most US stores seem to have a shipping model of "California and Wyoming" or whatever
23:11:51 <ehird> I'm annoyed that I can't use the nice Nexus Value 430W psu for my machine; maybe I'll get one of those "10 watts less!" super-green harddrives to ease my soul!
23:11:56 <Deewiant> They don't even bother to state on their pages that they ship to the US only, it's so obvious :-P
23:12:03 <fizzie> There's also the "whole import tax and other stuff" thing for outside-EU ordering.
23:12:11 <ehird> The UK seems to have okay prices on tech.
23:12:21 <ehird> And shipping probably wouldn't be a huge problem.
23:12:25 <Deewiant> For hardware, US > UK > Japan >> Germany > the rest
23:12:35 <ehird> The US just rocks because of newegg.
23:12:35 <Deewiant> Not sure if China should be there somewhere.
23:12:43 <ehird> God, I wish they shipped to the UK.
23:12:45 <fizzie> The Atom box and assorted hardware came from UK, since it's EU-internal.
23:12:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Japan > UK; we just have a few okay sites.
23:12:56 <ehird> Japan has *everything*.
23:13:14 <Deewiant> Well, whatever. There's still that >> there.
23:13:16 <ehird> Scythe's website is so unprofessional. "6Heat Pieps"
23:13:45 <Deewiant> The problem isn't shipping costs; I'd gladly pay shipping costs if there were any store that actually shipped what I wanted to Europe
23:13:56 <pikhq> Deewiant: China's probably cheaper, because of insanely crappy knock-offs.
23:14:10 <Deewiant> Price wasn't the only thing I was considering
23:14:23 <Deewiant> If the only stuff available is crappy knock-offs then that's not too good either :-P
23:20:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's the difference between 0.5-1 second of waiting and 0.1 second of waiting
23:20:46 <ehird> For operations to complete.
23:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, most of the stuff is in page cache early on for me
23:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what specific operations. Most stuff I do is either CPU bound, memory bound, or just very harddrive trashing (would wear out a flash drive soon)
23:22:12 <ehird> i challenge you to wear out an SSD quickly
23:22:43 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. Use it as swap on a a system with 128 MB RAM
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23:23:23 <ehird> Yes, because SSDs are the least reliable things ever and break with 3 seconds of use.
23:23:53 <AnMaster> um. 3 seconds... is that how you define quickly?
23:24:03 <AnMaster> I define quickly to "within two years"
23:24:09 <ehird> Please look up "hyperbole".
23:24:12 <pikhq> while true;dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda;done
23:24:21 <ehird> You think they use *IDE*?
23:24:52 <pikhq> Ah, right. Thinko.
23:25:00 <ehird> AnMaster: er, for IDE...
23:25:01 <fizzie> Well, that's up to you; certainly the old PATA stuff is still in the kernel.
23:25:06 <pikhq> I should know that, I've got /dev/sd* for IDE and SATA here.
23:25:15 <pikhq> (though to be fair,
23:25:23 <pikhq> I just use /dev/mapper)
23:25:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: When I last bothered to look, quite a lot of the PATA drivers on the libata combined-SATA-and-PATA side were marked as EXPERIMENTAL.
23:26:04 <fizzie> That was quite a while ago, though.
23:26:15 <pikhq> fizzie: There's the general-purpose PATA driver. :p
23:26:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, last I read most worked fine even thought they were marked like that
23:27:12 <fizzie> The Atom box has the CF card adapter in the PATA bus (speed's not an issue) and it's /dev/sda there, because CONFIG_ATA_PIIX wasn't marked experimental any longer.
23:27:44 <fizzie> Quite a lot of the experimental markings have gone away. But the heading still reads "Serial ATA (prod) and Parallel ATA (experimental) drivers".
23:28:44 <fizzie> On this desktop I just twiddled the bios bit to turn the SATA controller to AHCI mode, and forgot about PATA support; I don't have any hardware in the bus anyway. Truly a box of the future, even if it's some years old.
23:28:52 <pikhq> I think it's going to be marked that way until they can remove the old PATA stuff.
23:29:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: SATA for that too.
23:30:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh why. surely the DVD is slower than SATA
23:30:30 <fizzie> The cable is smaller, blocks airflow even less than rounded IDE cables. :p
23:31:03 <fizzie> I did mention the drive ("TSSTcorpCD/DVDW SH-S183A") but admittedly the from the name it's not obvious which interface it has.
23:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, Pasta with Swedish meatballs
23:31:31 <psygnisfive> but my grandfather makes pasta and its so bad when he does it, so its completely ruined pasta for me.
23:31:36 <ehird> I'd think psygnisfive's tastes would be more pasta with Swedish balls...
23:31:55 <AnMaster> ehird, especially when my grandmother makes the meatballs
23:32:02 <ehird> psygnisfive: That's not what I meant.
23:32:03 <psygnisfive> anmaster: ikea sells swedish food and i love it.
23:32:06 <ehird> It was a pun on your gayness, you see.
23:32:14 <fizzie> fi:pata equals something like en:stew (as in the food class).
23:32:16 <ehird> I'm glad we're all aware.
23:32:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, IKEA food is horrible
23:32:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: You have a gaycore in your body, which transmits gayity to the world.
23:32:38 <psygnisfive> anmaster: im sure it is, but i dont mean the food they prepare
23:32:47 <ehird> It also provides alternate power in case your heart stops beating.
23:32:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, they don't sell that here
23:33:13 <psygnisfive> like that yummy chocolate-coated hard caramel candy
23:33:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: Of course not; it'd be like selling ice to an eskimo.
23:33:18 <ehird> AnMaster: duh; you guys can get it in a food store
23:33:26 <ehird> it's curios for the foreigners
23:33:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you can get stuff from all over the world in the food shop
23:33:39 <fizzie> IKEA does sell some packaged food supplies here in Finland, though they aren't exactly... exotic.
23:33:48 <ehird> AnMaster: well sure, but not with swedish pacakging and the like
23:33:51 <fizzie> It's just "Daim" here. Do they add an o in your place? :p
23:34:09 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have chinese packaging?
23:34:09 <AnMaster> and other countries close to it
23:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the packaging look like then at IKEA
23:34:25 <psygnisfive> also, you swedes have some sort of soft flatbread
23:34:31 <ehird> It looks very Swedish.
23:34:33 <fizzie> Infallopedia says Daim is called "Dime" in the UK/Ireland.
23:34:36 <ehird> Like Swedish food direct from sweden.
23:34:41 <ehird> That stuff is ick.
23:34:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, different letter remember
23:35:11 <ehird> Apparently it's Dajm in swedeland.
23:35:37 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:35:45 <ehird> YOU ALL HAVE TERRIBLE TASTES IN CHOCOLATE
23:35:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sweden, says WP.
23:35:52 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_Bar
23:36:01 <fizzie> "originated in Sweden in 1953"
23:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, my grandmother makes a very tasty cake with bits of dime in it
23:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster is actually behind all things swedish
23:37:07 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daim <-- "Dajm"...?
23:37:31 <AnMaster> "Daim är en sötsak tillverkad av Kraft Foods." <-- "Daim is a sweet produced by Kraft Foods."
23:37:39 <AnMaster> googling shows Kraft Foods is US based
23:37:42 <ehird> yeah en. says it's Dajm
23:37:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it originates from sweden
23:37:51 <ehird> but I guess a US company makes it now
23:37:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen both spellings in Sweden
23:37:56 <ehird> but you can buy it in UK Ikea anyway
23:38:06 <ehird> They are cyberspace americans.
23:38:47 <fizzie> As far as I can make out, Kraft Foods ate the whole Marabou thing, which was the Dajm-maker.
23:39:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Powerthirst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs That Munctional-Erlang thing parodies it.
23:39:11 <AnMaster> as in the think you measure in Newton
23:39:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
23:39:24 <psygnisfive> is this a programming language that Mr Monk uses?
23:39:27 <ehird> Functional programming for men.
23:39:31 <ehird> AnMaster: That MUNCTIONAL Erlang video.
23:39:39 <ehird> It's a parody of the Powerthirst thing that psygnisfive was quoting.
23:39:41 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not familiar with it
23:39:59 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs
23:40:04 <ehird> But you've seen the munctional one.
23:40:07 <ehird> You said it was old when I linked it.
23:40:15 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo anyway
23:40:28 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
23:41:01 <ehird> AnMaster: First is powerthirst, second is munctional.
23:41:08 <ehird> First is the original, second is the erlang-based parody.
23:41:12 <psygnisfive> AND GET DEPORTED BACK TO KENYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:41:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yes. I've seen it too.
23:41:58 <ehird> I love the p-maps tour maps part.
23:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, which is the original and which is the joke
23:43:23 <ehird> Powerthirst is original.
23:43:25 <ehird> But it's a joke too.
23:43:29 <ehird> The Munctional is the derivation.
23:43:33 <ehird> How many times have I said that?
23:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just. A joke.
23:43:46 <ehird> It's parodying energy drink adverts to a degree.
23:43:55 <psygnisfive> the MUNCTIONAL guy doesnt have the right amount of energy in his voice
23:44:26 <ehird> erlang is all about PARALLELISM.
23:44:39 <ehird> PARALLEL search on your PETABASE sorted IN PARALLEL.
23:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, actually sorting in parallel with mapreduce is fun
23:46:18 <AnMaster> I have done it in erlang of course
23:46:24 <ehird> "sorting in parallel" by itself is impossible
23:46:29 <ehird> well, quite impossibl
23:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not sorting every element in parallel
23:46:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, it's just map/reduce
23:47:14 <AnMaster> ehird, of course not fully, but reduces workload
23:47:23 <AnMaster> since combining two sorted lists is easy
23:47:36 <ehird> psygnisfive: maybe google map reduce
23:47:55 <AnMaster> actually. I was talking of google style map reduce
23:48:08 <AnMaster> rather than the two functions map and fold
23:49:00 <ehird> 23:48 AnMaster: rather than the two functions map and fold
23:49:08 <ehird> but there are non-google implementations of MapReduce
23:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is the alternative meaning I can think of
23:49:19 <psygnisfive> i watched a SICP class from berkeley and the prof demoed hadoop
23:49:23 <ehird> which is what I meant by "maybe google map reduce"
23:49:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. I'm using an implementation in erlang then
23:49:51 <AnMaster> but for sorting you of course need a sorting step
23:49:57 <AnMaster> I think that is what we were talking about
23:50:15 <ehird> map/reduce isn't really applicable to sorting
23:50:20 <AnMaster> other than that there wouldn't be any sort involved
23:50:25 <ehird> since it's hard to do a sort efficiently with reduce
23:50:29 <ehird> and map is rather useless for it
23:52:21 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not a pure reduce
23:52:59 <ehird> hmm with 85% tdp utilization for the cpu, 90% system load and no capacitor aging, http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine says my system will use 328 watts
23:53:07 <ehird> but tweaking a bit puts it over 430W
23:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I would suggest quickmergesort, merge sort to split load across the number of nodes/cpus. Then each node/cpu doing it's own sorting with heap sort
23:53:15 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("Leaving...").
23:53:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:53:17 <ehird> Deewiant: know anything like that?
23:55:37 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, I much prefer sorting networks
23:55:51 <AnMaster> a pitty it needs specialised hardware
23:57:42 <ehird> AnMaster: fpgas can raytrace at 5fps
23:58:09 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have any idea how hard raytracing is
23:58:10 <AnMaster> ehird, where are GPUs that can do way better
23:58:13 <ehird> 5fps is basically a miracle
23:58:20 <ehird> you cannot do 5fps raytracing with gpus
23:58:39 <ehird> there's a reason there's a whole company based around their realtime-raytracing FPGAs
23:58:46 <ehird> and it's that it's way ahead of anything else
23:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen software ray tracing on a i686. Demo guy made it
23:59:08 <ehird> Yes, there are demos with it. But the scenes they render are simple, and the quality is not high.
23:59:20 <ehird> these do 5-10FPS for high-quality images
23:59:24 <ehird> as in, same quality as end result
23:59:37 <ehird> so, yes. FPGAs are fast.
00:00:02 <ehird> Nobody knows shit about Larrabee, so nothing can be predicted.
00:00:12 <ehird> I doubt it can raytrace in realtime.
00:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there was some talk from intel about ray trace on it
00:00:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Even so.
00:00:37 <ehird> If Intel can do it at 10fps, fine.
00:00:40 <ehird> But an FPGA does it at 5.
00:00:45 <ehird> And that's still wicked performance.
00:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I want it done at 40 FPS or so
00:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHAHA
00:01:13 <ehird> buy a time machine
00:01:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it's impossible. This is not for using in games.
00:01:26 <ehird> This is for people working on e.g. car designs.
00:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But 5 FPS isn't "real time"
00:01:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It does in 5FPS what normally takes an hour.
00:01:51 <ehird> That is real time.
00:02:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and can't you do it in parallel
00:02:16 <ehird> Gee, that's lovely and meaningless. Let's throw "parallel" after every word.
00:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you can. So just throw more FPGAs at it
00:02:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, with a gigantic render farm, you could match the 5 FPS that a single FPGA handles.
00:02:48 <ehird> And you say that FPGAs are slow?
00:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um... I'm not comparing it to CPUs
00:03:10 <AnMaster> rather to an array of Nvidia Tesla
00:03:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Woo, for way more cost you can get way more power-hungry equipment that can match an FPGA.
00:03:34 <AnMaster> or whatever is their fastest one currently
00:03:35 <ehird> FPGAs are so slow.
00:03:49 <AnMaster> ehird, FPGAs are slow compared to ASIC
00:03:56 <ehird> But they are not slow.
00:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, which is what I was comparing to
00:04:09 <ehird> 5FPS ray tracing is not slow by any stretch of the imagination. You could do sorting networks in FPGA just fine.
00:04:14 <AnMaster> why can't you then use SEVERAL FPGAs to speed it up
00:04:35 <AnMaster> maybe each rendering part of the frame
00:07:19 <AnMaster> ehird, is it this http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~fender/pdfs/raytrace_fender.pdf ?
00:07:26 <AnMaster> was the first hit I found for ray trace FPGA
00:07:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.caustic.com/
00:15:34 <ehird> fizzie: what res is that lg thing again?
00:18:59 <ehird> the monitor he uses
00:19:12 <ehird> that one is a different one
00:19:20 <ehird> i don't know and I don't care
00:29:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, mowing. As in "lawn mower".
00:31:03 <pikhq> Because it's a machine to mow.
00:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: I went out to mow.
00:31:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because what Edwin Budding decided to call it.
00:32:26 <pikhq> He invented the mower.
00:32:33 <ehird> Edwin Beard Budding (1795–1846), an engineer from Stroud, England, was the English inventor of the lawnmower (1830) and adjustable spanner. [1]
00:34:53 <pikhq> Before that, one could maintain maintain a lawn using a scythe...
00:47:09 <ehird> playing with CUDA will be fun
00:47:16 <ehird> i'll multiply matrices and stuff.
00:48:53 <fizzie> Bought it a bit before the unsurprising proliferation of 1920x1080 screens, which seems to have happened recently.
00:49:10 <fizzie> Oh, and 94 dpi if you want actual resolution-resolution.
00:49:11 <ehird> fizzie: Right. I assume 1080p media just gets two lil' bars?
00:49:23 <fizzie> Yes. I don't mind the bars.
00:49:27 <pikhq> Those probably aren't 1920x1080; most PC monitors are 16:10, not 16:9.
00:49:37 <ehird> Real 1080p monitors.
00:49:39 <fizzie> There are many 16:9 PC monitors nowadays.
00:49:45 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, they decided to have 16:9 monitors?
00:49:47 <ehird> But I don't like screens *that* wide.
00:49:49 <fizzie> It's the latest craze.
00:49:51 <ehird> pikhq: For the HD craze.
00:49:57 <pikhq> Good; seems dumb to have 16:10 monitors.
00:50:00 <ehird> But yeah, I want 1920x1200; it's the more monitor-y resolution. Games, etc.
00:50:10 <ehird> Sure, the ultra-wideness is nice for movies and shit.
00:50:14 <ehird> But for actual computing?
00:50:21 <ehird> 16:9 is gonna seriously cramp you vertically.
00:50:31 <pikhq> 16:10 was chosen because it had little black bars for 16:9 content.
00:50:45 <ehird> pikhq: I don't care how it was chosen; it works well.
00:51:08 <fizzie> I don't have a firm opinion on how much the difference actually matters; I rather like the fact that I could put my 1920x1200 screen next to the 1600x1200 4:3 screen, and get a nice not-non-rectangular desktop out of it.
00:51:44 <ehird> 16:9 is very good for movies and stuff. Very realistic and whatnot. But I like the additional vertical headroom— I deserve height, dammit.
00:53:06 <fizzie> I haven't actually tried any 1080 pixels high screens, so can't really comment. But I don't really grok what sort of real disadvantages the 16:10 ratio should have. (I haven't noticed any.)
00:53:36 <pikhq> fizzie: It's just got dumb reasoning is all.
00:53:53 <ehird> Who cares about reasoning? It's the results that matter
00:54:41 <RodgerTheGreat> wide screens are good for viewing multiple documents or terminals side-by-side
00:54:49 <fizzie> The ratios are so arbitrary anyway. I guess there's "native" 16:9 content (esp. direct-to-TV stuff), but do they actually squeeze released movie-movies to that ratio?
00:55:05 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: they're good for just about anything— but 16:9 is just too wide vs height to be usable IMO.
00:55:11 <ehird> for computer usage
00:55:22 <ehird> fizzie: Movies are 16:9, yes.
00:55:27 <ehird> On DVD and such that is.
00:55:56 <fizzie> That sounds strange; how do they do it, since the movies-in-a-movie-watching-place are something absurdly wide?
00:56:05 <ehird> Flagrantly cropping?
00:56:12 <fizzie> Two 136x90 terminals side-by-side is my most common content on the 1920x1200 screen.
00:56:50 <fizzie> For a single full-screen web browser it's a bit disturbingly wide.
00:56:51 <ehird> On this dinky "1050p" 16:10 20" screen I have three Safari windows with tabs, only one of which is really visible, and an IRC client in the lower-right corner.
00:56:55 <ehird> They are frolicking.
00:56:59 <ehird> And I refuse to use full-screen windows.
00:57:22 <fizzie> Well, I'm one of those tiling-wm crazies.
00:57:26 <pikhq> Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed.
00:57:43 <pikhq> fizzie: There's also native (roughly) 16:9 movies.
00:57:53 <ehird> 00:57 pikhq: Funny, most movies I see on DVD and Blu-Ray are letter-boxed. ← really?
00:57:58 <pikhq> And also native 4:3 movies.
00:58:01 <ehird> I don't really buy digital content so I didn't know
00:58:15 * ehird checks a site of pirates to see the kind of resolutions
00:58:26 <pikhq> Original aspect ratio, bitch. ;)
00:58:51 <ehird> pikhq: Here's an odd one: 1824x992.
00:58:59 <fizzie> I own a single movie on DVD: Miyazaki's Totoro, bought for 6 eur from a sales bin, mostly because CAT BUS.
00:59:05 <ehird> It's a blu-ray rip, cropped since there were black bars on *all 4 sides*.
00:59:12 <pikhq> (4:3 was the original Academy ratio, then they moved to nearly 16:9, then they went wider. 16:9 was chosen by the ATSC group as a compromise).
00:59:13 <ehird> THE FAILURE, OH THE FAILURE.
01:00:05 <pikhq> Hmm. A whole 76 pixels on the sides and 88 pixels on the top and bottom.
01:00:24 <ehird> Here's an actual blue-ray rip.
01:00:41 <pikhq> ehird: Original aspect ratio.
01:00:47 <pikhq> Also, why the hell do modern HDTVs have overscanning?
01:00:54 <pikhq> Yes, that's right. Overscanning.
01:00:56 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but, black bars, man. Even on 1080p screens.
01:01:23 <ehird> pikhq: Ahh, our shitty 21" CRT TV does overscanning badly, I think. The sides get chopped off the image.
01:01:28 <ehird> Least I think that's it.
01:01:38 <pikhq> An LCD 1080p TV will (in some cases) do minor upscaling so it can chop off a few pixels.
01:01:58 <pikhq> Upscaling a picture it can display *natively*.
01:02:19 <ehird> pikhq: 16:9 DVDs seem to be 704x480.
01:02:26 <ehird> That is uncomfortably low.
01:02:44 <pikhq> ehird: Uh... That's completely bizarre, given that that's the resolution of 4:3 DVDs.
01:02:51 <pikhq> 16:9 DVDs are supposed to be 720x480.
01:02:54 <pikhq> And yes, it is low.
01:03:30 <ehird> "Video: h.264 (4:3)"
01:03:40 <fizzie> 720x576 or something for PAL, one would assume.
01:03:58 <ehird> pikhq: These 704x480 widescreens appear to be anamorphic.
01:04:07 <ehird> Meaning...blackbarred.
01:04:20 <pikhq> ehird: As are 720x480 16:9 DVDs.
01:04:28 <pikhq> And 704x480 4:3 DVDs.
01:04:33 <pikhq> SDTV is anamorhpic.
01:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: 704x480 16:9 anamorphic means "stretched".
01:04:46 <ehird> As in, you have to squish it back to the proper 16:9 to play it.
01:04:54 <ehird> But it's stored as squashed/stretched 704x480.
01:04:57 <ehird> Why? No. Fucking. Clue!
01:05:10 <pikhq> You do realise that the same applies for 4:3, right?
01:05:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:05:18 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
01:05:20 <ehird> I HATE VIDEO FORMATS
01:05:22 <pikhq> SDTV with square pixels would be 640x480.
01:05:51 <pikhq> HDTV is an attempt to make it non-retarded.
01:05:56 <fizzie> Square pixels are so square.
01:05:58 <pikhq> ... And people are still being dumb with it.
01:06:23 <ehird> We should just have square fucking pixels with unsquashed video in the resolution and aspect ratio it's actually going to be played back on.
01:07:00 <pikhq> I'll give the DVD spec some slack, because it still has to deal with the standards set in the 50s.
01:07:44 <pikhq> But everything that's not SDTV? Come on, just use fucking square pixels and encode it in the right aspect ratio.
01:07:50 <pikhq> There is *no reason* to encode freaking black bars.
01:08:06 <ehird> pikhq: If I recall correctly, my father was present at the consortium-meeting-things that defined DVD.
01:08:11 <ehird> Representing some sort of company or another.
01:08:20 <ehird> So I will take my anger out on him. :-P
01:08:30 <pikhq> ehird: I wouldn't.
01:08:39 <ehird> He is clearly an agent of the devil.
01:08:49 <pikhq> The DVD has to deal with legacy formats.
01:09:27 <pikhq> 720x480 is the only time I will accept anything but square pixels in the right aspect ratio.
01:10:18 <fizzie> I seem to have a video file that has the resolution 660x362, but I think that's trying to match original 1.82 aspect ratio in the content, scaled down to some rather random number.
01:11:17 <ehird> fizzie: does mplayer automatically handel anamorphic shit?
01:11:29 <fizzie> As far as I know it does.
01:11:44 <fizzie> Assuming the container format is intelligent enough to encode the aspect ratio that it should be played at.
01:11:45 <pikhq> ehird: It's the first one to handle it properly.
01:11:59 <pikhq> It's the only one that handles it right on AVI.
01:12:03 <ehird> mplayer seems to be very good at "give me a file, I'll play it properly"
01:12:08 <pikhq> Well, other ffmpeg-based player might also do it right.
01:12:15 <pikhq> Yeah, that's what mplayer's great at.
01:12:30 <pikhq> It's also a rather good encoder, if you're willing to mess with the command line.
01:12:54 <fizzie> It seems less good at "five me an URL, I'll play it properly"; at least there's been a couple of strange asf/mms/whatever-streams only VLC could play for me.
01:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: you mean mencoder?
01:13:34 <pikhq> fizzie: You have to add the -playlist argument for those, I think.
01:13:44 <ehird> I've always wondered how to rip a DVD without reencoding it.
01:13:52 <ehird> As in, just gimme the damn data in the standard MPEG2 format!
01:14:11 <fizzie> "-oac copy -ovc copy" could be suitable mencoder magic.
01:14:41 <pikhq> ehird: mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.vob
01:14:48 <pikhq> Doesn't even remux it.
01:14:49 <ehird> pikhq: that's a .vob
01:14:52 <ehird> not an .mpeg thing
01:15:00 <ehird> I want an .mpeg :-P
01:15:05 <pikhq> That's the DVD on-disk format.
01:15:07 <ehird> But WITHOUT reconverting.
01:15:11 <ehird> Just stuff-it-into-the-container.
01:15:14 <pikhq> Technically, .mpeg would also be a valid extension.
01:15:21 <ehird> A .vob is a valid .mpeg?
01:15:33 <ehird> pikhq: is dumpstream fast?
01:15:35 <pikhq> A .vob is a MPEG transport stream.
01:15:36 <ehird> it would seem like it'd go in realtime
01:15:45 <ehird> also, I want a regular video-style .mpeg
01:15:48 <ehird> like downloaded from the interwebs
01:16:02 <pikhq> Dumpstream says "instead of playing it, dump that shit to disk as fast as you can."
01:16:15 <ehird> But what about .mpeggggg
01:16:18 <fizzie> The web says: "Program streams are used on DVD video discs and HD DVD video discs. The file extensions are VOB and EVO respectively. Blu-ray Discs use a transport stream (TS) format with an additional 4 byte time code added to the beginning of each TS packet."
01:16:31 <fizzie> And it claims that a .vob file is actually an MPEG-PS.
01:17:00 <fizzie> Not my area of expertise, though. I do know that the DVB broadcasts we get from digital TV are MPEG transport streams.
01:17:12 <ehird> "mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.mpeg dvd://1" might work then.
01:17:51 <fizzie> At least mplayer'll play the result. :p
01:17:55 <fizzie> Seriously have to sleeps now.
01:19:12 <pikhq> Erm, right. MPEG-PS, not TS.
01:19:38 <pikhq> Just aggreing with fizzie.
01:30:09 -!- kerlo has joined.
01:30:15 <kerlo> Well, I guess I have to find this out at some point.
01:30:19 <kerlo> What do I do with a .cpp file?
01:33:09 <ehird> kerlo: You always surprise me with your lack of programming knowledge...
01:33:23 <ehird> how can you not know how to compile a .cpp file and yet own and administrate a virtual server?
01:35:00 <pikhq> kerlo: Windows guy?
01:35:03 <kerlo> ehird: by paying $25 a month and yet not having much experience.
01:35:37 * pikhq tosses kerlo a nickle for the blank media
01:35:38 <ehird> Uh oh, now we have to listen to a windows guy justify his choice
01:36:19 <pikhq> ehird: Almost as bad and archaic as hearing a SLS guy justify his choice.
01:36:31 <ehird> pikhq: No, no— Yggdrasil.
01:36:40 <ehird> Sgeo: softlanding linux system
01:36:42 <ehird> ancient linux distro
01:36:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: The original distro.
01:36:56 <ehird> "Yggdrasil was the first company to create a Live CD Linux distribution"
01:36:57 <pikhq> It's very fucking old.
01:37:10 <pikhq> By "old", I mean "Slackware is a *fork* of it".
01:37:11 <ehird> They charged for it
01:37:22 <ehird> linux boot cd in 1992
01:38:03 <kerlo> ehird: I believe that last time, I justified my choice because you asked me to.
01:38:12 <kerlo> So no, you don't have to listen to me justify my choice again.
01:38:17 <ehird> I don't have much of a memory
01:38:28 <ehird> kerlo: It was "Windows does everything I want", right?
01:38:30 <pikhq> kerlo: You still use Windows, so it can't have been a valid justification.
01:38:34 <ehird> Only the worst argument for using Windows ever.
01:38:47 <ehird> Actually, you listed... about 2 things Windows can't do that Linux could.
01:38:52 <ehird> Which makes it an even worse argument.
01:39:11 <kerlo> I think it was that.
01:39:40 <ehird> pikhq: Let's woe together about Windows users.
01:39:42 <ehird> Yes, woe is a verb.
01:40:40 <ehird> lament: let's woe.
01:41:29 <kerlo> Should I find this funny or be sympathetic?
01:41:38 <pikhq> kerlo: You should woe.
01:41:53 <ehird> kerlo: Woe at yourself.
01:42:04 <ehird> Then fix cause-of woe-from us.
01:42:53 * kerlo woes, and does not switch to Linux.
01:43:09 * pikhq beats kerlo with a real operating system.
01:43:16 <pikhq> Pick one, they're all more real than Windows.
01:43:25 <pikhq> Yes, including DOS.
01:43:46 * ehird punches kerlo and stomps on him. Drastic measures for (a) coloured people (as long as the colour isn't white), (b) immigrants and (c) Windows users.
01:44:02 <ehird> The scummery and villanry of modern society!
01:44:30 <ehird> Also, (d) Muslins. Death to fabric.
01:48:03 * Sgeo switched from Linux to Windows. What does that make me?
01:48:14 <ehird> Sgeo: Benjamin Button.
01:48:30 <ehird> pikhq: I prefer mine.
01:48:32 <kerlo> Sigh. I hate web sites where the password you have to use to log in is different from what you set your password to when you register.
01:49:08 <kerlo> I picked the password foo\bar. The account activation email told me my password was foo\\\\bar. My actual password ended up being foo\\bar.
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02:52:26 <Sgeo> http://icehot.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/humor-linux.jpg
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04:16:34 <coppro> I thought that was VLC?
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04:30:49 <Gracenotes> meh. mplayer's scaletempo has failed for me
04:31:22 <Gracenotes> compiling... different flags... repository needs updates... nonfree packages... o_o
04:31:54 <Gracenotes> so I can listen to audio and watch video at a rate I find more engaging
04:32:26 <Gracenotes> better to spend 30-something minutes on a lecture than an hour
04:33:18 <Gracenotes> for books on tape and video or audio lectures for computer science, not movies or anything.
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04:48:14 <Gracenotes> so I have to listen with the pitches screwed up, like a sixth or seventh up.
05:35:18 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, some MIDI players do what you want >.>
05:35:37 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood_, speeding it up and lowering the pitch in the opposite direction?
05:59:34 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood_, I'm assuming it's possible. Maybe it isn't without slowing things down
06:16:32 <Gracenotes> one can lower pitch by transposing one pitch to another
06:17:02 <Gracenotes> with MIDI files, this is very easy, since the internal representation is notes, not the sounds themselves
06:17:32 <Gracenotes> for wav/mp3/etc. there are various properties of sound you can exploit to do it...
06:18:03 <Gracenotes> obviously it's possible, since mplayer has a feature, just not here >:|
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06:27:54 <Gracenotes> afaik, you can either speedup+raise pitch or slow down+lower it. And you can calculate how much you raised/lowered the pitch mathematically and reverse that amount.
06:28:49 <Gracenotes> there is possibly an algorithm that combines these steps.. otherwise the quality might be lowered. I am not terribly familiar with sound science >_>
06:29:26 <Gracenotes> MIDI files are different entirely: instead of storing WAVs, they store discrete notes, noting exactly where they start and end and splitting them up into separate tracks
06:30:24 <Gracenotes> for example, a note might have the pitch C4. So to transpose it down an octave, just change it to C3, and likewise for all other notes.
06:31:25 <Gracenotes> or to speed up, just change the tempos used throughout the song accordingly.
06:31:37 <Gracenotes> which is an explicit variable, for tempo.
06:33:45 <Gracenotes> I know more than a few people who speed up lectures this way
06:34:22 <Gracenotes> are able to absorb content faster. It works for me too, but without the pitch correction it can get annoying.
06:42:44 <Gracenotes> I can't say I do entirely either. From a musical perspective at least (playing piano), pitch can be modeled nicely mathematically
06:50:18 <Sgeo> Should I try M*U*S*H?
06:55:09 <Slereah_> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/wolfram-alpha.php
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07:38:13 <fizzie> Yes, you can do both the speed-up-without-pitch-changes and alter-pitch-without-tempo-changes operations to generic digital audio, though you're always going to get some artifacts.
07:41:16 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_timescale-pitch_modification seems to be a (rather variable-quality) article about it.
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08:05:22 <fizzie> Speaking of memory cards (though the discussion ended a long ago, I guess), it seems that they've started to make 16 GB MicroSD(HC) cards since the last time I looked (when they went up to 8). That's the crazy.
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09:21:35 -!- oklodok has set topic: international tub http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
09:22:28 <fizzie> The international tub of esoteric language developers.
09:24:55 -!- oklodok has set topic: The international tub of esoteric language developers. Consider feasting on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
09:25:17 <oklodok> most of my suffices are just english words
09:25:37 <oklodok> i also have other birds like kok
09:27:57 <oklodok> fok is a hawk, f and h are the same character in finnish, for some values of lying my ass off
09:38:07 <oklodok> i'm not nearly as good with birds as my subconscious, no idea.
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09:56:56 <oklodok> was the food you ate last bitter
09:57:17 * oerjan just finished a slice with strawberry jam, so no
09:57:36 <oklodok> ima eat like noodles and meat today.
09:57:47 * oerjan now starts on the liver paté
09:57:57 <oerjan> i don't consider that bitter either
10:00:32 <oerjan> oh noes we're a tub now
10:01:55 <oklodok> well would you rather be in a cub or a rub? perv.
10:02:32 <oklodok> shit, the ai wins me in two rounds.
10:03:02 <oklodok> and here i thought i was special
10:20:57 <Slereah> How would you like to rub-a-dub-dub in my tub
11:15:51 <AnMaster> oklodok, it wasn't bitter. It was butter (well, mostly bread, but that isn't as funny)
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13:31:29 <AnMaster> I wonder why lostking contains a loop around that at all
13:31:48 <ais523> hmm... isn't that a repeat-once loop?
13:31:57 <ais523> which is not really a loop at all
13:32:10 <ais523> it could be an artifact of the way BFBASIC works
13:32:41 <AnMaster> ais523, however see the index cell is set to a constant just above
13:32:52 <AnMaster> so in that case it is a "dead if, once"
13:32:55 <ais523> which is why the loop always iterates exactly once
13:33:29 <AnMaster> and getting rid of the loop bit in it will help a lot
13:35:53 <ais523> the Windows computer right in front of me, which I'm not logged onto
13:35:58 <ais523> is being logged into remotely by the admins
13:36:12 <ais523> and I saw them type their username, and a concealed password
13:36:14 <AnMaster> and why does it show up on the screen
13:36:22 <ais523> and it's not spyware; it's remote keyboard/mouse control, but legitimate
13:36:29 <ais523> because they installed the software to do that deliberately
13:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, wait... can you interact with it too?
13:36:41 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently so, I just moved the mouse a few pixels
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13:36:59 <ais523> they logged in on a non-admin account, I think
13:37:17 <ais523> but even if it was an admin account, I wouldn't want to get in trouble by grabbing control of the logged-in session
13:37:57 <ais523> blame Windows for not really implementing remote sessions with a GUI
13:38:15 <ais523> I imagine Windows admins would find the idea of ssh with X forwarding really alien
13:38:25 <ais523> even though it would be a much easier way to accomplish what they're trying
13:38:37 <ais523> hmm... the mouse pointer is teleporting, rather than moving smoothly
13:38:49 <ais523> so it's not a direct interface
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13:38:59 <AnMaster> ?TRACE({"STUPID PROGRAMMER^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND.",H}),
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13:42:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that they loaded Excel, looked at the tools menu (presumably to verify a particular item was there), then logged off again
13:43:07 <ais523> well, not quite, they're at the logoff confirm screen atm
13:43:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that sounds extremely strange
13:47:45 <AnMaster> hm handling those dead repeat once/if loops had a large cascading effect on lostking
13:48:03 <AnMaster> from 74710 lines of output to 73376 lines.
13:48:08 <ais523> that's not really that large
13:48:22 <fizzie> Misread "^W^WREPEAT ONCE LOOP FOUND" as "WEAR HATS [something unintelligible]"
13:48:43 <AnMaster> ais523, but then the repeat loops are rather large
13:49:38 <ais523> as in, 719 isn't much smaller than 733
13:51:05 <AnMaster> next up is (if no IO, not deep and so on) flattern repeat loops. Polynom style.
13:51:20 <AnMaster> oh and being able to convert more types to repeat loops
13:51:46 <AnMaster> currently it only handles index_diff = {add,255}, not even {add,1}.
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15:59:01 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, did you see what I said about esotope-bfc being broken on linux?
15:59:17 <AnMaster> you can't give more than #!/path/to/program OneParameter
15:59:25 <AnMaster> so /usr/bin/env python -O didn't work
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16:13:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, are you able to detect some finite loops even when the constant isn't known btw?
16:13:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: first transform the loop into if (some_condition) while (1); actual_loop; and get rid of if(some_condition) ... codes later.
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16:14:47 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I mean, if you don't know constant loop can in general be either finite or infinite
16:14:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, see http://rafb.net/p/LeOL2E65.html
16:15:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I brute force tested it for all pairs {1..255,1..255} :P
16:15:45 <lifthrasiir> if the target cell is constant, esotope-bfc removes the redundant if statement; but that's all for now.
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16:16:26 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I can mark a loop like "input [add y to cell]" as finite now, if y is an odd number.
16:16:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, which means I can move IO nodes over it
16:17:05 <AnMaster> like, loop output_constant -> output_constant loop
16:17:31 <lifthrasiir> right, finite and pure (no-IO) loop is free to move
16:18:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I track if loop has input and/or output (for some reason I decided to track them as two separate parameters thinking "might be useful to know it has input but no output", but I can't think of a reason for it any longer...)
16:20:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh and here is a really trivial checker for is finite/infinite, less elegant than your code. But I understand how it works.
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, Diff) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Const + Diff) rem 256).
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(_Const, _Diff, 0) -> false;
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, _Diff, Const) -> true;
16:20:34 <AnMaster> is_inf(Const, Diff, Cur) -> is_inf(Const, Diff, (Cur + Diff) rem 256).
16:22:30 <AnMaster> probably slow. but when testing I detected no major slow down. about half a second extra for lostking, and since I'm already taking around 40 seconds for it...
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18:03:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there? IIRC you wondered what optimisations were broken by treating [>>[[-]++]] as balanced for example?
18:03:35 <AnMaster> that specific one: probably none
18:04:21 <AnMaster> ais523, because "balance" for me means that I can simply move > ahead and offset the instruction
18:04:52 <AnMaster> turning >> [>+[>]++[[-]++]] into [(offset 2) >+[>]++[[-]++]] >> isn't valid
18:05:06 <ais523> AnMaster: [>[-]>[>]+[<]<[-]] is balanced
18:05:12 <ais523> but doesn't fit your balance optimisatoin
18:05:23 <AnMaster> where offset means that p+=1; p[0] turns into p[1] p+=1;
18:05:34 <ais523> and actually, in that case it is, because you do no I/O between the time the opimisation messes up and the infinite loop
18:06:13 <AnMaster> ais523, in general it breaks though. I managed to generate a test case where it ends up accessing p[-1] in that case due to shifting the "p+=" forward
18:06:53 <AnMaster> ais523, well a[-1] in fact. Out of bounds.
18:07:13 <AnMaster> +>+>+<<[>]>>>> ,[ <,[,.]>[-]+ [++>->>>>,[,]<<<<-<]< ,] ,.
18:07:28 <ais523> you probably need a different term than "balanced"
18:07:37 <AnMaster> the first bit is there only to make the "initial memory is all zero and use that knowledge" pass give up before
18:07:42 <AnMaster> so it is easier to see what happens
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18:08:44 <ais523> AnMaster: in [-]+[>[-]] the second loop isn't balanced, but it still has a known offset
18:08:55 <ais523> (although, of course, nobody would deliberately write that particular program like that)
18:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think even lostking contains that!
18:09:40 <ais523> I think that what you need for that optimisation is not that the current loop is balanced, but that all loops it contains are balanced
18:09:56 <ais523> even [>+] could be optimised with that optimisation
18:09:59 <AnMaster> in fact you could optimise lost king by running it through an optimiser and outputting it back to bf
18:10:01 <pikhq> LostKng is horrible, but hey, it's auto-generated.
18:10:13 <ais523> instead of p+=1; *p++; you could do p[1]++; p+=1;
18:10:23 <ais523> of course, you don't gain anything directly in such a short loop, but you might if it were more complicated
18:10:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: A dead-code elimination pass alone does wonders.
18:10:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I do that already inside the loop
18:10:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that optimisation has nothing to do with the loop being balanced or not
18:10:49 <ais523> just to do with the loops /inside/ that loop being balanced
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18:12:55 <AnMaster> ais523, my shifter pass, which is peephole style (operates on pairs of instructions), does "don't ever shift across unbalanced loops, shift pointer moves forward across everything else, don't two IO instructions across each other, when possible sort by offset"
18:13:10 <AnMaster> it also recurses into loops to try to shift internally in them
18:13:38 <AnMaster> getting rid of created >< and such is up to the combiner pass next time it runs.
18:13:39 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I don't think unbalanced loops with embedded infinite loops mess that algorithm up
18:13:52 <ais523> and that reminds me of gcc-bf, actually
18:14:01 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if it cleans up >< created as a result of that sort of thing
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18:14:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a almost-DSL for it
18:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, more like you would make a DSL in scheme.
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18:15:07 <AnMaster> I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions.
18:15:23 <ais523> err... you serialised a table into a function?
18:15:28 <ais523> I don't think that's what "serialised" means
18:15:37 <ais523> ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster
18:15:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't know a better word
18:16:02 <ais523> you could try the general "compiled", I suppose
18:16:14 <ais523> or "hardcoded", even, although that might be ambiguous
18:16:20 <ais523> or just the even more general "converted"
18:16:26 <AnMaster> anyway the function returns false | {true, nochange | TranslatorFunc} | {maybe, TranslatorOrFalseFunc}
18:16:44 <AnMaster> it just gets instruction names, no details like offsets and such
18:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and I hand compiled it I guess
18:17:06 <AnMaster> by trying to create a minimal set of rules
18:18:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/zosmmI54.html was the table. Haven't updated it after I added if/repeat/loop_inf
18:19:24 <AnMaster> and and example from the serialising:
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({_,_}, {mov, _}) -> false;
18:19:26 <AnMaster> %% Offset shouldn't change for out_const.
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({mov, _}, {out_const, _}) -> {true, nochange};
18:19:26 <AnMaster> should_swap({mov, _}, {_,_}) -> {true, fun shift_mov/2};
18:20:09 <AnMaster> where the second parameter is used for loops to say if they are finite or infinite (or unknown), if they contain IO and so on.
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, you know that fingerprint specification file thing that cfunge uses?
18:22:04 <AnMaster> would you call that a DSL or not
18:22:11 <ais523> and not really, it's more a file format
18:22:22 <ais523> would you call PNG a domain-specific language?
18:22:45 <AnMaster> though not a plain text such then
18:22:58 <AnMaster> ais523, hm yeah you can't compute with it indeed
18:23:23 <ais523> it's more a markup system + a scripting language
18:23:28 <ais523> and JavaScript isn't very domain-specific
18:23:45 <ais523> as for whether XML's a language or not, that's probably flamewar-worthy, so I won't go into it
18:24:26 <AnMaster> you can't possibly disagree about XSLT being a DSL
18:24:49 <ais523> XSLT, I agree with you
18:26:02 <AnMaster> ok... this is strange how did an loop_inf end up with loop data saying it is unknown if it is finite or not...
18:28:43 <AnMaster> ais523, that [-]+[>[-]] ... Have there been much work on optimising unbalanced loops in BF before?
18:29:04 <ais523> although, I've been thinking about the problem a lot in relation to gcc-bf
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18:29:10 <ais523> where most of the loops are unbalanced
18:29:27 <ais523> the problem is to be able to demonstrate that the IP is known most of the time anyway
18:29:34 <AnMaster> like propagating "infinite loop" upwards for unbalanced loops that contain infinite that will always be run.
18:29:58 <AnMaster> though actual infinite loops I can only detect directly for balanced loops otherwise
18:31:00 <AnMaster> ais523, you could put a bound on [>] for example by building a tri-state map containing "known set to constant, possibly clobbered, unknown"
18:31:24 <AnMaster> example: +>+>+><<<[>] can be solves that way
18:31:47 <AnMaster> that is assuming at start of program or the values of those cells known to not be 254 due to something else
18:31:57 <ais523> in gcc-bf, knowing that every third cell is usually set to 1, for instance, is very useful to do various sorts of optimisations
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18:32:27 <ais523> AnMaster: if they were left at 1 forever, they wouldn't be useful at all
18:32:39 <ais523> but they only have different values for short periods of time
18:32:41 <ais523> and only one does at a time
18:32:43 <AnMaster> ais523, how could compiler know when it was at 1 then
18:33:00 <ais523> well, it always is in the outer loop
18:33:06 <ais523> although actually proving that might be rather difficult
18:33:08 <AnMaster> ais523, does the generated bf contain any dead code?
18:33:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it could do, but that would be if there was dead code in the asm
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18:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, so no possibly BfBASIC style dead code?
18:33:39 <ais523> and you'd need to investigate every function pointer in the input C to make sure it never called into that code
18:33:59 <ais523> AnMaster: again, possible if you have something like a while loop which never iterates
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18:34:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, if the input C contains dead code
18:34:31 <AnMaster> but I meant, will you ever generate anything like [-]+[->+++<]
18:34:35 <ais523> why are you so bothered about this, anyway?
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18:34:51 <ais523> and it might at the moment, I'm not sure how much I optimise
18:35:00 <ais523> it's quite likely you could even generate >< with the current code
18:35:19 <AnMaster> ais523, when BF code is so bad it can be optimised at the pure BF code level then I get rather uncomfortable
18:35:34 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I'm aiming for something that works first
18:35:47 <ais523> and the optimisations are likely to be peephole rather than global
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18:35:54 <AnMaster> ais523, lostking contains lots of dead code, and I don't detect all of it yet.
18:35:54 <ais523> as in, that gcc-bf is missing
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18:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, You mean you need peep hole optimisers?
18:36:40 <AnMaster> May I recommend erlang, it is truly awesome for those
18:36:44 <ais523> but they're trivial enough to hack onto the end
18:36:51 <ais523> and may I recommend Perl, it's even more awesome for those
18:36:53 <AnMaster> it fits the pattern matching of erlang perfectly
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18:37:12 <ais523> AnMaster: does erlang have pattern matching as powerful as Perl regexes?
18:37:12 <AnMaster> optimise([#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V2 }|T],
18:37:12 <AnMaster> [#bfn{ ins = add, off = Offset, val = V1 } = A|Result]) ->
18:37:12 <AnMaster> optimise(T, [A#bfn{ val = V1 + V2 }|Result]);
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18:37:56 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but it does have PCRE. Don't think it works at language level currently. Though I heard some rumours about that being considered.
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18:38:28 <ehird> 07:44 bsmntbombdood: ....my computer just crashed ← did you do something wrong?
18:39:55 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I recently read an interesting article about using superoptimiser to generate better peep hole optimisers.
18:40:05 <ais523> an optimiser optimiser?
18:40:27 <AnMaster> ais523, http://cs.stanford.edu/~sbansal/pubs/asplos06.pdf (linked from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superoptimization)
18:40:28 <ais523> and I've had a couple of kernel panics over here before too, I think the wireless driver was at fault
18:41:03 <AnMaster> I have rougly one or two kernel panics / year.
18:41:14 <ais523> AnMaster: what causes them?
18:41:18 <ehird> 17:15 AnMaster: I did a table describing all possible combinations, then I seralised it into a function returning a set of actions given two instructions.
18:41:18 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: err... you serialised a table into a function?
18:41:20 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: I don't think that's what "serialised" means
18:41:22 <ehird> 17:15 ais523: ehird: if you're here, please now laugh at either me or AnMaster
18:41:24 <ehird> /me laughs at AnMaster
18:41:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I think he's using Debian, and I don't care how many kernel panics you have.
18:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, usually nvidia or vmware drivers. Once buggy USB in kernel (around 2.6.8 or so)
18:41:51 <ehird> "Wolfram Alpha v Google: Which is better?
18:41:52 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha is the new computational search engine that could revolutionise the way we use the web. But is it good enough to replace Google as the most popular online search engine?"
18:41:54 <ehird> *smashes head against brick wall*
18:42:16 <ais523> I know I once managed to compile a division by zero into a custom kernel I was compiling
18:42:21 <AnMaster> ehird, about how many kernel panics I had
18:42:21 <ais523> so that panicked every single time
18:42:24 <ehird> well ais523 was talking about bsmntbombdood's panic too
18:42:30 <ais523> GregorR: GregorR-L: here?
18:42:34 <ehird> and I don't care about ais523's crashes either
18:42:46 <ais523> ehird: but AnMaster does, I think
18:43:01 <ehird> ais523: only so he can comment on how much more stable his system is
18:43:02 <ais523> I don't run custom kernels on my own hardware, but this was for a project where we needed a massively small kernel
18:43:03 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and of course I had a "panic, boot drive not found" when I messed up in grub on new installs.
18:43:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you mess around with grub by hand?
18:43:22 <ais523> my package manager sorts that out for me
18:43:29 <AnMaster> ais523, um... grub-install misdetected what hd0 and hd1 was
18:43:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so even if I had used a package manager to do it, it wouldn't have helped
18:43:52 <ehird> http://i.somethingawful.com/u/dannymanic/wolfram/wolfram04.gif ← oh, SA.
18:43:54 <ais523> it automatically generates a sane grub configuration based on which packages you have installed
18:44:09 * ais523 vaguely wonders what it would do if I tried to uninstall the kernel; maybe default to booting memtest86
18:44:13 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster messes around with _everything_ by hand
18:44:24 <ais523> ehird: you can mess around with the auto-grub thing by hand too
18:44:27 <ais523> just most people don't bother
18:44:33 <AnMaster> ais523, basically linux live cd saw /dev/sda (SATA) and /dev/hda (PATA), grub-install decided sda was hd0. When booting it had instead decided hda was hd0
18:44:50 <ehird> ais523: but that requires he let something else do trivially automatable work!
18:45:36 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?").
18:46:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and this could not possibly have been solved by a package manager. However. After switching to a new mobo (the old one broke, on warranty), I haven't had issues with reversed interpretations in grub
18:46:17 <AnMaster> different mobo model in case you wonder
18:46:48 <fizzie> Speaking of the somethingawful W|A test, here's one particular input that went around IRC too:
18:46:49 <fizzie> W|A "2 girls x 1 cup the meaning of life": Input interpretation "2 girls × 1 cup × answer to life, the universe, and everything", result "84 cup girls".
18:47:03 <fizzie> That's a... rather interesting unit.
18:47:26 <AnMaster> what is up with the google logo
18:47:33 <ehird> fizzie: http://www53.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2+girls+1+cup gives it too
18:47:35 <ehird> AnMaster: hover over
18:47:38 <ehird> it changes all the time...
18:47:41 <AnMaster> clicking on it gives me "missing link found"
18:47:47 <ehird> surely you've noticed google's holiday logso
18:47:49 <fizzie> It's about the new fossil discovery, I guess.
18:47:59 <ais523> (this is evidence about how rarely I use Google, and how even more rarely AnMaster uses Google)
18:48:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes.. but which one is this
18:48:04 <ehird> total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days
18:48:09 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster uses google all the time
18:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: hover ove
18:48:23 <ehird> click the links on the missing link found?
18:48:27 <ehird> it always links toa relevant search
18:48:37 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking on it -> http://www.google.com/search?q=missing+link+found&ct=missinglink&oi=ddle
18:48:45 <ehird> look at the articles
18:48:49 <ais523> ehird: that "missing link" fossil had a similar release to Wolfram Alpha
18:48:55 <ais523> so I don't entirely trust it
18:49:10 <fizzie> Well, the "news results" articles are reasonably relevant, at least some of them.
18:49:15 <ehird> ais523: I don't trust it because 18:48 ehird: total baloney of course, the world is 6000 years old and was created in 7 days
18:49:28 <ais523> ehird: you don't believe that
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18:49:31 <fizzie> One of them is http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i53486 which is not quite what it's about.
18:49:37 <AnMaster> ehird, "404 Not Fou.. Wait sorry, here it is. Err. 200!"
18:49:39 <ehird> ais523: Correct! I know it!
18:50:26 <AnMaster> sadly the HTTP protocol doesn't let you say you did a mistake halfway through the transmission
18:50:29 <ehird> Also, we're crafted out of clay.
18:50:42 <ais523> AnMaster: are you sure?
18:50:51 <ais523> so you could do it at the lower level
18:50:53 <ehird> after the headers, it's just a raw stream
18:51:04 <ais523> ehird: I was thinking, halfway through the headers
18:51:14 <ais523> AnMaster: if you send packets out of order, you can fill in the missing ones later
18:51:15 <ehird> ais523: impossible too
18:51:19 <ehird> there's no header for it
18:51:19 <ais523> in fact, the other computer will bug you for them
18:51:41 <ais523> AnMaster: useful because sometimes the packets end up out of order even though you sent them in the right order
18:51:49 <AnMaster> oh yes, if HTML you could add in, then put the broken part inside <!-- -->
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18:52:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you had to make space for that extra packet right?
18:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, and what if you decided you didn't need an out of order one there...
18:52:48 <ais523> just send a packet full of comments
18:56:14 <ais523> GregorR-L: I wrote a BF Joust hg bundle
18:56:17 <ais523> which is moderately tested
18:56:19 <ais523> where should I send it?
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18:58:01 <ais523> it requires Perl 5.10; I may have to produce a 5.8 version, depending on what you're running atm
18:59:07 <ehird> ais523: debian testings'
18:59:11 <ehird> hopefully perl 5.——
18:59:18 <ehird> ais523? Depend on modern Perl features?
18:59:22 <ais523> Ubuntu have been on Perl 5.10 for ages
18:59:24 <AnMaster> ais523, did you read that about super-optimisation to produce better peep hole optimisers?
18:59:27 <ehird> modern *5.10* features?
18:59:30 <ais523> AnMaster: not the full article
18:59:35 <ehird> ais523: Who are you, and what did you do with ais523?
18:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, see some examples near the end in a table
18:59:49 <ais523> ehird: my aim for backwards compatibility is specifically about C-INTERCAL
18:59:55 <ais523> it isn't so appropriate elsewhere
19:00:04 <ehird> ais523: you've always seemed quite disdainful to the new fangled 5.10 stuff
19:00:09 <ais523> I also believe in portability; but 5.10 is portable
19:00:18 <ais523> and I don't remember being disdainful towards the 5.10 stuff
19:00:23 <ais523> it makes the programs easier to read, at least
19:00:29 <ais523> which is useful when showing them to someone else
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19:18:13 <ais523> hmm... does anyone else here view multiple short files by piping more into less?
19:20:01 * AnMaster makes a pass the scans once forward, then once backwards on the tree...
19:20:55 <AnMaster> rather than having to do :n to see next fime
19:21:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I would never had thought of that...
19:22:42 <ehird> ais523: that doesn't seem to work :<
19:22:58 <ais523> ehird: as in, more *.c | less?
19:23:11 <ehird> I just get one of the files
19:23:27 <ehird> I get all of the files, concatenated
19:23:32 <ais523> from wikitech-l: <Bart> How does one access the toolserver to use commands like that? <Domas> with an axe.
19:24:03 <ais523> Domas is in charge of server maintenance, etc, he's basically the person who most often uses root access on Wikimedia's servers
19:24:15 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
19:24:47 <EgoBot> Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4)
19:25:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> I get all of the files, concatenated
19:25:05 <ais523> hmm... that maximum's one higher than it ought to be
19:25:20 <ais523> because in BF Joust, a program can never beat a copy of itself
19:25:25 <ais523> I should have noticed that in my testing
19:25:49 <ais523> GregorR-L: it puts a results table in a directory the same way the fyb one does
19:25:59 <GregorR-L> ais523: I see, I'll need to make that accessible some way :P
19:26:16 <ais523> in fact, it's mostly the fyb code I'm using
19:27:28 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
19:28:13 <GregorR-L> I don't see a solution immediately, but I do see my looming dental appointment, so byeeeee :P
19:28:38 <ais523> anyway, attack/defend/fool are the scissors/rock/paper of BF Joust, I think
19:28:50 <ais523> although writing good defence programs is /hard/
19:28:58 <ais523> at least, as far as I could tell
19:29:04 <ais523> and a good attack can normally break through them
19:29:12 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:29:19 <asiekierka> ais523: How's BF Joust? Did anyone beat me?
19:29:26 <EgoBot> Score for nop: -2 (maximum 4)
19:29:33 <ais523> asiekierka: you can try out your programs on egobot now
19:29:56 <ais523> your program, you mean/
19:30:02 <ais523> as in, BF Joust program?
19:30:06 <ais523> it should be in my logs, and in clog's logs
19:30:26 <ais523> and I've rebooted since
19:30:39 <ais523> but it's in my logs, because you told me in the first place
19:31:18 <EgoBot> Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 5)
19:32:00 <EgoBot> Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6)
19:32:11 <EgoBot> Score for asie2: -2 (maximum 6)
19:32:26 <ais523> +1 for each program you beat, -1 for each program that beats you
19:32:36 <ais523> and the test programs in there are different from the ones I was running against on my own computer
19:32:46 <ais523> asiekierka: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
19:32:59 <ais523> it runs each program against all previous programs
19:33:19 <EgoBot> Score for asie1: -1 (maximum 6)
19:33:25 <ehird> !bfjoust ehirdomatic [[>[-]]>+]
19:33:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7)
19:33:40 <ais523> the report runs in the background, so it won't update immediately
19:33:40 <ehird> ais523: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is empty now.
19:33:48 <ais523> see, it's non-empty now
19:33:50 <ehird> ais523: it wipes it while running, it seems
19:33:56 <ehird> shouldn't it leave the previous content until then
19:34:03 <ais523> I just copied the FYB stuff
19:34:13 <ehird> 19:33 EgoBot: Score for ehirdomatic: -1 (maximum 7)
19:34:15 <ehird> 4 | - - - 0 - 0 | 15.3| -4| ehirdomatic.bfjoust
19:34:25 <ehird> it says my score is 15, but correcting the obvious copypasta to pts, I get -4 there
19:34:27 <ehird> and -1 from the bot
19:34:33 <ais523> ehird: well, it's random tape lengths
19:34:37 <ais523> although I'm not sure if that matters
19:34:46 <ehird> ais523: it should average it out...
19:34:54 <ais523> only one run for each pair of programs
19:34:59 <ais523> otherwise it would take /ages/
19:35:28 <ais523> ehird: although I will point out that your program is probably incapable of winning if the tape length is even
19:35:32 <AnMaster> ais523, it might be interesting to have four states for the balance of a loop
19:35:34 <ais523> which would explain the variety in results
19:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, unknown, true and false are what I have currently. But it could be useful to have "sometimes" as well. Like: [>+,[>>[-]+]<]
19:36:52 <ais523> maybe I should input one of my good programs
19:36:59 <ais523> I just put the basic program for each strategy in there to start with
19:37:07 <asiekierka> I'm good with defense but bad at attack
19:37:30 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
19:37:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 8)
19:38:09 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-]
19:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, is high or low score bad
19:38:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 9)
19:38:15 <ais523> AnMaster: high is good
19:38:32 <ais523> attack5 does badly against other attack programs, but well against defense programs
19:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so negative values indicate sucky programs?
19:38:35 <ais523> which is why it's doing badly here
19:38:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it means they lost more than they won
19:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, which one won most
19:38:52 <ais523> asiekierka: the report will take a whle to generate
19:39:20 <ais523> hmm... the "score for" seems wrong
19:39:30 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
19:39:31 <ais523> as in, ais523_attack5 won every single game on the report, which I tested
19:39:35 <ais523> but is low on the score-for, which is wrong
19:40:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, it would be more useful if the list was sorted
19:40:14 <ehird> I'm not reading the whole damn thing
19:40:16 <ais523> AnMaster: the help? it isn't, it lists special commands first then interpreters
19:40:29 <ais523> fyb and bfjoust both need special handling
19:40:38 <asiekierka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYRLTF71Sow - check this out xDD
19:40:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I see... what about the text gen one though
19:41:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I suspect that's programmed weirdly too
19:41:06 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [83]
19:41:24 <ais523> and that's a lot of +s in a row in the middle...
19:41:27 <AnMaster> it has been discussed several times the last few days
19:41:29 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+><<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>-. [577]
19:41:52 <ais523> I reckon a human could probably beat that easily
19:41:59 <ais523> although I can't be bothered to right now
19:42:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it could beat itself by running for more generations
19:42:13 <EgoBot> 77 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>.++++.<-.>++++.>+.++++++.--.+.>-. [222]
19:42:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it is genetic algo after all
19:42:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what was it an?
19:42:55 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, you have 12 GB ram and you OOMed?
19:43:25 <ais523> why would you be sorting 5 gig of data?
19:43:43 <ehird> AnMaster: to use up RAM?
19:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: cuz he has no other use for 12g
19:44:10 <bsmntbombdood> and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash
19:44:43 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> and how well i could parallelize sort(1) with bash
19:45:28 <AnMaster> how can you use sort(1) + bash to sort a file in parallel..
19:46:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it is merge sort kind of I guess
19:46:06 <ais523> why did you need to test it on gigabytes of data?
19:46:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, but sort internally doesn't use that for all parts
19:46:32 <AnMaster> so it is merge for the outermost layer
19:46:36 <ehird> you can merge sort a quicksort
19:47:12 <AnMaster> the "inner" sort that works on the separate chunks are not using merge sort afaik
19:47:29 <ais523> AnMaster: pure-mergesort is a relatively common sorting technique nowadays
19:47:36 <AnMaster> btw, what happens if you try to use a buffer size smaller than the file
19:47:38 <ais523> because unlike quicksort, it isn't slowed by pathological data
19:47:54 <ais523> AnMaster: you can write temporary stages of mergesort on disk
19:48:03 <pikhq> Mergesort is pretty spiffy, indeed.
19:48:06 <ais523> slows it down slightly due to disk I/O time, but mergesort streams very well
19:48:06 <bsmntbombdood> i am preempting all of AnMaster questions by a couple of seconds
19:48:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, I'd have to look at the source
19:48:37 <pikhq> I'm a bit more fond of bucket sort for hand-sorting stuff, though. :p
19:48:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that'll fall down when he asks a really stupid question
19:49:17 <ehird> ais523: he said that yesterday do
19:49:19 <ais523> pikhq: I generally use insertion sort when hand-sorting
19:49:26 <ehird> probably they're all ~*PARALLEL*~ like <3Erlang<3
19:49:33 <ais523> because when sorting by hand, I'm not normally sorting much
19:49:40 <ais523> and normally sorting physical objects
19:49:46 <ais523> and they insertion-sort well
19:49:50 <pikhq> ais523: That's what I do if I'm hand-sorting something that's partially sorted.
19:49:55 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: if only 100, it shouldn't matter what algorithm you're using
19:50:03 <ais523> unless you can't automate it
19:50:09 <pikhq> (say, my Magic cards got a bit unsorted by someone)
19:50:14 <ais523> (well, excluding silly ones like stooge-sort
19:50:24 <pikhq> Bucket sort is much nicer for hand-sorting things that aren't very well-sorted.
19:50:24 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it O(log n) iirc?
19:50:34 <EgoBot> 102 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++>+><<<<-]>.++++.>-.<++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++.--.+.>>-. [99]
19:50:53 <ais523> all sorts are at least O(n) in size
19:50:57 <ais523> because otherwise you couldn't store all the data
19:51:17 <ais523> and mergesort is O(n log n) in time, O(n) in size, IIRC
19:51:33 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, I looked up sorting networks, and you're full of shit, because they're just a way to represent conventional sorting algorithms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Insertion_and_Selection_networks
19:51:41 <pikhq> Unless you've got inefficient allocation, that is.
19:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network#Optimal_sorting
19:52:10 <ais523> mergesort's nice because it hits theoretical optimums for both time and size, /and/ its worst-case performance is the same as its best-case performance
19:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: how's that relevant at all?
19:52:28 <ehird> ais523: wait, mergesort always uses the same amount of time for a given length?
19:52:46 <ais523> ehird: yes for some implementations
19:52:59 <ais523> I assume that it isn't exactly the same in practice due to things like branch prediction
19:53:03 <bsmntbombdood> it uses exactly the same amount of comparisons iirc
19:53:07 <ais523> and people not writing the program symmetrically
19:53:10 <ais523> but it's the same in comparison count
19:54:41 <AnMaster> an abacus can sort in O(sqrt(n)) says wikipedia
19:55:01 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bead_sort#Complexity
19:55:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Define n
19:55:30 <ehird> oh, gravity-based.
19:59:34 <ehird> i just do crapsort
19:59:51 <ehird> find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction
19:59:54 <ehird> repeat until sorted
20:00:19 <bsmntbombdood> merge sort is actually rather adaptive when you do it by hand
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20:05:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's called an abacus
20:05:55 <bsmntbombdood> with a scale large enough that it's actually faster than a general purpose cpu
20:05:55 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure you could build a sorting coprocessor to do bead sort.
20:05:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's useless without an infinitely long abacus
20:06:14 <ehird> pikhq: he means analogue
20:06:21 <ehird> robot to move them
20:06:40 <ehird> Both digital and analog hardware implementations of bead sort can achieve a sorting time of O(n)
20:06:41 <pikhq> That'd be pretty cool, too.
20:07:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just simulates an abacus?
20:07:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> find something that looks too big/small for position, throw it in right direction <-- one way to optimise it would be by when it is too big and you move it down, then go back one step and compare, and so on
20:07:46 <ehird> AnMaster: that's gnome sort
20:07:50 <bsmntbombdood> anyway, if it has to be O(n), you might as well use your fpga to do a counting sort
20:07:53 <ehird> but it's too boring to remember all that stuff
20:08:05 <ehird> it's so much easier just to throw stuff around
20:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it seemed like the best way for the instruction shifter in bf. Since there are so many restrictions on the top of the basic "sort by offset"
20:09:09 <pikhq> I'm rather fond of non-comparison sorts, really.
20:09:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe
20:09:18 <AnMaster> and of course it has to be a stable sort... "[-]>,<+" isn't same as "+[-]>,<"
20:09:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you have sse4.2; go play with it
20:09:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: just mix the sse instructions in with C
20:09:58 <ehird> it's just registers
20:10:24 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Depends; are you doing any vector operations?
20:10:46 <pikhq> Say, comparing 4 values to 4 other values at the same time? ;p
20:11:10 <ehird> I'm going to try some CUDA stuff
20:11:15 <ehird> Hope my shitty radeon can run it
20:11:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but my radeon absolutely cannot, being that CUDA is a nvidia technology :)
20:12:02 <ehird> what's your card? the 8600?
20:12:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it's not CUDA
20:12:32 <ehird> and CUDA seems nicer
20:12:48 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it isn't CUDA. But the one ATI uses is an open format iirc.
20:13:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: right, it's a mid-low-end gfx card
20:13:04 <ehird> as in, mid of the low enda
20:13:09 <ehird> AnMaster: cuda's specs are open, I think
20:13:13 <ehird> and I don't really care
20:13:16 <ehird> CUDA seems nicer to program in
20:13:33 <ehird> d'you mean OpenCL, AnMaster?
20:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe, I don't remember the name
20:13:48 <ehird> "OpenCL was initially developed by Apple Inc., which holds trademark rights, and refined into an initial proposal in collaboration with technical teams at AMD, Intel and Nvidia."
20:13:49 <ehird> "NVIDIA announced on December 9, 2008 to add full support for the OpenCL 1.0 specification to its GPU Computing Toolkit.[8]"
20:13:59 <ehird> so I could use it if I wanted, but CUDA looks nicer
20:15:12 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway Gnome sort is trivial to implement. And works fairly well for sorting BF instructions.
20:15:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and it is peep hole style too
20:15:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why, they're just GTXes without the gaming stuff
20:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, trivial when working on linked two linked lists (one input and one output) as well
20:16:09 <ehird> I'm considering getting a gtx, though, and putting a quiet fan on it
20:16:18 <ehird> but I'm not sure I need the extra performance :p
20:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, tesla doesn't have any VGA or DVI connectors. iirc
20:16:52 <AnMaster> But yeah you only use monitors for gaming
20:17:03 <ehird> but that's even more of a reason not to buy them
20:17:09 <ehird> I bet they're more expensive than GTXes too
20:17:21 <ehird> but I'd just buy a GTX for that anyway :p
20:17:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: meh
20:18:01 <ehird> just SLI a bunch of gtx's up
20:18:05 <ehird> should be enough for most anything
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20:20:10 <fizzie> They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU.
20:20:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: good lord
20:21:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a fuckload of fans
20:21:02 <ehird> I wonder how much you could quiet a gtx 275
20:21:20 <ehird> Huge heatsink would probably get it down to a just-too-high temp, you could probably add a nice quiet fan on to that
20:21:22 <ehird> but what about fan adjustment?
20:21:23 <bsmntbombdood> the puny little fan and heatsink i see on them doesn't look very capable
20:22:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it probably runs at 5k rpm or something daft like that
20:22:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or has 3 fans under the cover
20:22:45 <fizzie> Maybe a fan with tiny fans mounted on the blades.
20:23:12 <ehird> unfortunately, infinite dB
20:23:27 <ehird> but infinite cooling power!
20:24:06 <ais523> ehird: actually, log-infinity dB
20:24:18 <ais523> which means that you can have aleph-one cooling power, but only aleph-zero noise
20:24:23 <ais523> decibels are a logarithmic scale
20:24:34 <ehird> ais523: that's some good cooling/noise ratio
20:24:43 <ehird> unfortunately, I'm not sure my ears are clued up on aleph-one vs aleph-zero
20:24:49 <ehird> they might just break anyway
20:26:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> They should make some sort of combined sauna stove / GPU. <-- that would definitely be a hit in Finland. Not anywhere else though...
20:26:37 <ehird> AnMaster: whyever not? just have a sauna next to your house
20:27:00 <ehird> your gpu doubles as a sauna stove
20:27:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It'd also be a hit in much of the northern US and Canada.
20:27:07 <ehird> so make a sauna next to your house and use it as one
20:27:14 <ehird> and start a sauna business
20:27:17 <ehird> you can profit while you game
20:27:21 <ehird> and have an excuse to game all day
20:27:22 <AnMaster> but what about California and such
20:27:33 <pikhq> And it'd be ubiquitous in Alaska.
20:27:38 <AnMaster> and there is where computers are designed after all
20:27:49 <ehird> AnMaster: what a great generalization
20:27:52 <pikhq> Yeah, in California, you sell a combined air conditioner and CPU cooler.
20:28:19 <pikhq> I recommend a tank of liquid nitrogen for the computer and a fan to distribute the cold air.
20:28:23 <AnMaster> my point was, they wouldn't come up with the idea
20:28:45 <ehird> pikhq: people have overclocked CPUs to ~6.5ghz by just pouring liquid nitrogen on it
20:28:46 <AnMaster> it wouldn't occur to them. Too hot.
20:28:56 <ais523> ehird: submerging in liquid nitrogen, I thought
20:29:06 <ais523> given that it doesn't conduct electricity, it's not all that bad an idea
20:29:12 <ehird> ais523: well, the video just showed a huge amount of smoke and someone tipping a canister
20:29:16 <ehird> so it'd probably end up submerging it
20:29:21 <ehird> but they tipped it continuously
20:29:24 <ais523> that's steam, not smoke
20:29:26 <pikhq> ehird: 10GHz with Phenom II.
20:29:35 <ehird> 6.5ghz is world record
20:29:40 <ehird> on some AMD chip, maybe phenom ii
20:29:40 <ais523> well, sort of condensed liquid-phase steam
20:29:46 <ais523> I'm not sure if that technically counts as steam or not
20:29:54 <AnMaster> the photo I have seen showed them pouring it into a pipe mounted on the CPU
20:30:01 <ehird> AnMaster: that's possible too
20:30:06 <ehird> i don't really recall
20:30:27 <AnMaster> might have been a different madman
20:30:59 <bsmntbombdood> i think you would have to get all your components completely anhydrous
20:31:29 <ehird> AnMaster: AMD and Gigabyte do it at open events
20:31:31 <ehird> to promote their hardware
20:31:38 <ehird> so not exactly madman
20:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2007TaipeiITMonth_IntelOCLiveTest_Overclocking-6.jpg
20:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm quite sure they won't give support on those products if any customer did it!
20:32:27 <ehird> AnMaster: that's from an Intel event, it seems
20:32:50 <ehird> AnMaster: and, well— I read an AMD Athlon X2 manual today. it said that replacing heatsink/fan voided the warranty
20:33:00 <ehird> so... it's barely supported anyway!
20:33:29 <ehird> i played with the overclocking settings on it a bit
20:33:33 <pikhq> Amusing, since they sell it without a heatsink as well.
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20:33:40 <ehird> it was 2ghz and went to 2.67ghz quite painlessly
20:33:48 <ehird> although sometimes it'd try to boot, not post, give a click, then reboot again and work
20:33:58 <ehird> Sgeo: read the logs if you want to know
20:34:11 <ehird> but yeah, it ran just fine although I didn't do any intensive tests
20:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you have such a computer?
20:34:32 <Sgeo> Reading logs means waiting for Firefox to start up
20:34:37 <Sgeo> Which can be a few minutes
20:34:51 <ehird> it's my mom's but I was toying with it earlier
20:35:49 <ehird> the cray-2 was submerge-cooled
20:36:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-2
20:37:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Integrated_Chip_Cooling_Techniques
20:39:35 <ehird> when i pushed the cpu past 2.67ghz it refused to boot, which made me sad :p
20:40:44 <ais523> that's a pointless overclock, really
20:40:52 <ais523> why not run it at regular speed if that's all the improvement you can get?
20:41:08 <ehird> but I wanted to see how much it'd let me do
20:41:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: of course
20:41:47 <ehird> AnMaster: to spend less money on a cheaper processor to get more performance
20:42:19 <ehird> but this didn't really work too well... the base clock thing was 200 to start with, and more than 207 made it more unstable than the sometimes-boots-twice-automatically-before-POSTing (i.e. refused to boot). multiplier max was 13x but that worked fine.
20:42:22 <AnMaster> Hm. I never heard of anyone overclocking a laptop
20:42:37 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=overclocking+laptop&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:42:41 <ehird> 15 Nov 2002 ... Overclocking a laptop can be a mistake, as processor heat is not easily dissipated when using a heat sink with a fan pushing less air than I ...
20:43:16 <ehird> the fan on the athlon usually runs at 1600 rpm or so
20:43:28 <ehird> with the small .67ghz overclock it ran at 1900 rpm or so
20:43:32 <ehird> went a few degrees up too
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20:46:25 <ehird> ais523: .67ghz isn't that small; it's a 33.5% increase
20:46:35 <ehird> but performance-wise, 2 vs 2.67ghz probably isn't gigantic, for a low-endp orc
20:46:43 <ais523> that is pretty small, only 33%
20:46:48 <ais523> in terms of actual usefulness
20:47:00 <ehird> ais523: err, over 20% overclock is considered large, I believe
20:47:30 <ais523> so why do people even bother with it?
20:47:44 <ehird> ais523: because some CPUs overclock better
20:47:50 <ehird> the 2.6ghz Core i7 920
20:47:52 <ehird> can overclock to 4ghz
20:47:59 <ehird> which is higher than an i7 you can buy
20:48:17 <ehird> 965 (3.2ghz) $999.99
20:48:30 <ehird> so you save $720 and get .8ghz more
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20:52:04 <ais523> Sgeo: I'll wait a few days before visting it, I don't want to overload the servers
20:52:13 <ais523> in the meantime, don't spoil it
20:52:27 <ehird> ais523: what kind of server can't handle a few web hits?
20:52:33 <Sgeo> Maybe in the next few days, there'll be a new new one
20:52:39 <ais523> a single server that's very popular
20:52:41 <Sgeo> What are you up to?
20:52:44 <pikhq> ehird: Maybe a C64?
20:53:00 <ais523> apparently it's message board traffic that puts the most strain on it
20:53:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Order of the Stick.
20:53:06 <ehird> ais523: stress someone else's single popular server: http://imgur.com/8h4xz.gif
20:53:08 <Sgeo> The server was recently upgraded, and in a few months there will be two servers - one for the comic, one for the boards
20:53:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alaska_Pipeline_Closeup_Underneath.jpg
20:53:24 <ais523> ehird: not from this connection, and that's almost certainly copyvio if it's a copy of OotS
20:53:35 <ehird> rehosting free material is not a copyright violation
20:53:39 <Sgeo> It's a copy of OotS
20:53:40 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:54:06 <ehird> (and if it's ruled so, I shall have to build an asylum for the world. Mark two.)
20:54:25 <ais523> ehird: err, I don't see why it wouldn't be
20:54:26 <Sgeo> Mark one being in the HHGG "trilogy"?
20:54:39 <ais523> because "free" != "free for all purposes"
20:54:43 <ehird> ais523: *facepalms, builds underground bunker*
20:54:47 <ais523> he might want the ad revenue, for instance
20:54:52 <ais523> I know OotS has no direct ads
20:55:00 <ehird> if he wants to turn a profit he should get a server that can handle hits :)
20:55:00 <ais523> but it certainly advertises its own peripheral products a lot
20:57:09 <pikhq> ehird: I've already done that. This was after I discovered that most car owners were incapable of changing their oil or other such basic tasks.
20:57:31 <ehird> pikhq: can I leave the Asylum?
20:57:45 <ehird> I think you will find that I am incredibly sane, and thus can apply for entainment.
20:57:58 <pikhq> ehird: You are in the asylum, but not as an inmate.
20:58:03 <ehird> (being the opposite of detainment)
20:58:07 <pikhq> So, yes, you are free to leave it at any time.
20:58:16 <ehird> pikhq: where does it end?
20:58:47 <pikhq> I declare your home to be Outside of the Asylum.
21:00:40 <bsmntbombdood> heatsink reviewers need a more objective methodology
21:01:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: like how
21:01:35 <ehird> Infinite inversion snowflakes turn into MC Escher's dream about butterflies.
21:01:38 <bsmntbombdood> build a heater with a thermocouple and a processor shaped heatspreader, attach your heatsink, and measure how much heat you can put into the base until the temperature reaches some amount
21:02:25 <bsmntbombdood> and then you can compare any coolers based on their wattage rating
21:02:36 <ehird> yeah but that doesn't measure real-world processor performanc
21:03:26 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/logos/missinglink.gif
21:03:34 <Sgeo> Some Christians are upset by this
21:03:42 <ehird> I'm not surprised.
21:04:06 <ehird> ais523: err, what?
21:04:14 <Sgeo> ehird, ais523 was making a joke
21:04:21 <ehird> Sgeo: They can believe the world is 6000 years old and God makes each and every one of us out of clay, and we can advance humanity.
21:04:24 <ais523> Sgeo: it's actually a metajoke
21:04:41 <ais523> given what happened in this channel a few hours ago
21:04:50 <ehird> arctic cooling are pretty cool
21:04:55 <Sgeo> ...I'm curious now, what happened?
21:05:07 <ehird> Sgeo: AnMaster thought the link in the logo was an error
21:05:11 <pikhq> ehird: I'll tell you who gives a damn.
21:05:11 <ehird> as in, link-is-missing
21:05:21 <pikhq> The Christians that think the world is older than 6,000 years. ;)
21:05:35 <pikhq> And most of them are caring enough to face-palm.
21:05:40 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, they do associate with the other ones by choice... :-P
21:09:29 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2258
21:10:01 <ehird> the orochi is so large as to be impractical
21:10:07 <ehird> "less than 30 dBA noise"
21:10:15 <ehird> you mean like any decently silent heatsink/fan combination ever?
21:11:19 <fizzie> The heatpipes get bonus points for looking like some sort of tentacle monster.
21:13:59 <fizzie> I would like to move the innards of my secondary desktop computer from the current "boring beige box" into the not-in-use-since-the-smoke-went-out Lian Li "itty-bitty black box", but I think the monstrous hunk of a cooling device (which isn't even all that big by modern standards) is a bit too high to actually fit in.
21:16:33 <ais523> fizzie: CPU cases have magic smoke now?
21:16:42 <ais523> or did the smoke escape from the CPU inside it?
21:17:02 <fizzie> The smoke escaped from the parts that were formerly occupying the box, yes.
21:17:30 <fizzie> Well, I guess they still are occupying it in a physical sense, since I just stuck the thing in a corner so I won't stumble on it.
21:24:49 <bsmntbombdood> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:gzD5srbF0_sJ:www.cs.ualberta.ca/~niewiado/TR07-02.pdf+sorting+with+sse&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a
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21:28:38 <ehird> [ehird:/TheVolumeSettingsFolder/HFSExtentTables/MNT6835442416PHRKF87P115I8] % ls
21:28:39 <ehird> 6NGSHGFTH6UJ237QGNESSF403KDLU5C1N7V6OVSOMP4UC1JL3RM0
21:29:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: poking around /
21:51:46 <bsmntbombdood> the problem with using sse for sorting is that if you are able to use it, you are also able to use a non-comparison sort
21:52:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: heh
21:58:27 <Gracenotes> hah, I have to try this out: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html
21:58:42 -!- nooga has joined.
21:58:44 <Gracenotes> the probability of two large random integers being coprime is 6/pi^2
21:59:25 <nooga> i wonder if there is sense in writing SADOL compiler that employs partial evaluation for different types
21:59:29 <Gracenotes> I must put all the computing power of my GHC to this task
21:59:38 <Gracenotes> I'll tell you when I get 5 decimal places. >_>
21:59:45 <ehird> Gracenotes: ask bsmntbombdood
22:00:01 <ehird> he'll throw 4 cores/8 threads, 2.9ghz and 12GB of DDR3 RAM at it
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22:00:33 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: ooooh so now hyperthreading is a good thing
22:00:37 <ais523> Gracenotes: that's brilliant, a bit like monte carlo evaluation of pi, but less efficient
22:00:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nope
22:00:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I was just stating the facts
22:00:46 <Gracenotes> that actually wouldn't be a bad shootout problem
22:00:53 <ehird> Gracenotes: it'd be a bloody slow one
22:01:38 <Gracenotes> implement a 19937 mersenne twister and, given a seed via command line, calculate the number of iterations until you get pi to a certain accuracy
22:01:55 <Gracenotes> given consecutive pairs of high numbers from the twister
22:02:09 <Gracenotes> okay, maybe a little too specific for a shootout question
22:02:23 <Gracenotes> but still, lemme at least try implementing it first... mmmm.
22:02:45 <Gracenotes> ghc --make -O2 -funbox-strict, here I come
22:03:24 <ais523> is a funbox like a funroll?
22:03:30 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: let's sign up for a BOINC project!!!
22:04:10 <Gracenotes> actually, the full name is -funbox-strict-fields
22:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> ...to calculate pi via the most inefficient algorithm possible?
22:04:42 <pikhq> I vote that you calculate pi via an evolutionary algorithm.
22:04:54 <ehird> ais523: it unboxes stuff.
22:05:01 <ehird> strict fields in specific
22:05:03 <pikhq> Compare with a circle with known area and radius.
22:05:08 <Gracenotes> pikhq: eh. There's a different between that an hill-climbing
22:05:47 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Did I mention that this was meant to be implemented using floating-point emulation?
22:05:50 <nooga> where's my llvm-gcc
22:06:14 <Gracenotes> linked to from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ltxo/absolutely_without_a_doubt_the_most_inefficient/c09pfc8
22:06:30 <Gracenotes> who calculated pi by emulating the pin drop method
22:06:50 <nooga> ehird: does llvm-gcc exist on macports?
22:06:53 <Gracenotes> which is possibly more inefficient, but only the mathematicians can tell us!
22:07:07 <ehird> nooga: try "port search". but use clang, foo
22:07:19 <ehird> llvm-gcc42 @2.5 (lang)
22:07:23 <nooga> port install clang?
22:07:32 <Gracenotes> ais523: oh, a funbox isn't much like a funroll, but maybe a freschedule-modulo-scheduled-loops is
22:07:34 <ehird> you need to check it out from svn
22:07:41 <pikhq> I love that the PRNG seed is Pi.
22:07:46 <Gracenotes> or maybe -fsched-stalled-insns-dep=<number>
22:07:58 <nooga> ehird: i got llvm package from ports (2.5)
22:08:09 * Gracenotes looks for the weirdest gcc flag he can find
22:08:25 <ehird> nooga: http://clang.llvm.org/get_started.html
22:08:31 <ehird> nooga: before you do those instructions:
22:08:36 <ehird> otherwise it breaks
22:08:41 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
22:08:43 <ehird> then follow those instructions exacterly
22:08:55 <nooga> ehird: but it won't break my classic gcc? i need it for gayPhone
22:09:04 <ehird> nooga: it won't, clang != gcc.
22:09:07 <ehird> clang is a new compiler
22:09:07 <pikhq> ehird: Only works with gcc-4.2?
22:09:10 <ehird> nooga: also, just don't 'make install;
22:09:14 <ehird> pikhq: it just doesn't work with 4.1
22:09:16 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> finline-functions-called-once
22:09:24 <nooga> but setting CC might damage something
22:09:26 <ehird> nooga: and you can just use it from the source tree
22:09:31 <ehird> since it'll goa s you close your terminal
22:09:35 <ais523> once you close the terminal, it's forgotten
22:09:36 <ehird> so just close the terminal after that
22:09:47 <pikhq> Or just change CC back.
22:09:51 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: not really... it's somewhat specific, that's all.
22:10:06 <Gracenotes> I suppose if you're interested in a trade off between performance and binary size...
22:10:29 * pikhq should set up clang and LLVM...
22:10:53 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, and what are you implementing
22:11:02 <ehird> a scrollback searcher
22:11:20 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. Can I saw it with my current headache
22:11:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you can saw it but you might chop your finger off
22:11:39 <ehird> always be careful with saws
22:11:41 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html
22:11:55 <nooga> svn co http://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/cfe/trunk clang ; make
22:11:57 <Gracenotes> and also looking at random gcc options, cuz I feel like it
22:12:00 <pikhq> I know what the weirdest GCC opt is.
22:12:12 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you on irc with a migrane?
22:12:21 <ehird> nooga: follow the instructions directly.
22:12:23 <ehird> without differage..
22:12:31 <Gracenotes> oh yes, I only considered the ones beginning with -f
22:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, not being on it doesn't make a difference
22:12:38 <nooga> but i've already got llvm
22:12:46 <AnMaster> just turn the contrast down and it works quite ok
22:12:51 <ais523> -### is pretty weird, name-wise at least
22:12:51 <ehird> it won't work properly
22:12:59 <ehird> nooga: so just do what it says, it won't overwrite
22:13:01 <ehird> just don't "make install' ffs
22:13:58 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, anyway what are you implementing...
22:14:04 <nooga> ehird: what is the difference between clang and llvm-gcc?
22:14:11 <Gracenotes> calculating PI by the above-linked method
22:14:11 <AnMaster> <Gracenotes> AnMaster: http://web.archive.org/web/20001217124300/www.cacr.caltech.edu/~roy/upi/index.html <-- that?
22:14:13 <ehird> clang is a new c compiler
22:14:16 <ehird> llvm-gcc is gcc compiling to llvm
22:14:19 <ais523> nooga: llvm-gcc is based on gcc
22:14:23 <ais523> whereas clang is different
22:14:31 <Gracenotes> other than port my C++ ray tracer to Haskell
22:14:37 <Gracenotes> and figure out Haskell's SDL interface
22:14:42 <ais523> also, in terms of what I got C-INTERCAL working for, llvm-gcc compiles to native code, clang to bytecode
22:14:46 <ais523> but I suspect that isn't necessary
22:14:58 <nooga> is speed of code generated by clang worth doing all that weird installation procedure?
22:15:10 <Gracenotes> and figuring out whether I need existentials to make a heterogenous list of shapes in the scene
22:15:13 <ehird> you're just not any good at it :)
22:15:29 <nooga> regular installation is: sudo apt-get install clang
22:15:57 <ehird> yeah it's not as if anyone ever compiles anything themselves
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22:16:30 <AnMaster> ais523, then you are doing it wrong
22:16:30 <nooga> but when i get this llvm with clang compiled...
22:16:51 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a packaging bug in clang over here
22:16:53 <AnMaster> ais523, use -emit-llvm to llvm-gcc
22:16:58 <ais523> which is presumably my fault as I compiled it
22:17:17 <nooga> i don't want any software in my ~
22:17:27 <ehird> nooga: figure out something yourself then
22:17:36 <nooga> too late, too lazy
22:18:07 <nooga> (yes, i am being annoying on purpose)
22:18:35 <ehird> nooga: *help service terminated*
22:19:16 <AnMaster> nooga, I use ~/local/llvm/2.5/
22:19:35 <AnMaster> since I don't want non-package manager managed software elsewhere on the system
22:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah the system with llvm svn uses ~/local/llvm/svn/ for both clang and llvm
22:20:13 <AnMaster> since you place clang inside the llvm build tree
22:20:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can hack the main llvm build system so it builds clang too
22:21:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just modify the list of subdirs of the tools directory
22:21:35 <AnMaster> this is (was?) needed for out of tree llvm/clang builds
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22:29:43 <nooga> PS1=... in .bashrc does not work :C
22:31:14 <nooga> prompt like: macbook-xxxxx-yyyyyyyyyy:~ xxxxxxyyyyyyyyyyy$ is ... yuck
22:32:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:36:55 <nooga> Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C
22:37:06 <nooga> and that what comes out from llvm ;p
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22:45:04 <nooga> id how to build that shit on os x
22:46:59 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: you should get a fusion io io drive for your new computer
22:48:27 <nooga> the head does not build :C
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23:05:32 <Sgeo> Just pointed out a long-standing flaw in the M*U*S*H tutorial
23:17:10 <AnMaster> <nooga> Atomic.cpp:28: error: ‘__sync_synchronize’ was not declared in this scope :C
23:18:10 <AnMaster> nooga, out of interest.. What esolang programming have you done
23:19:33 <AnMaster> nooga, plus, that matches "out of question", not "out of interest"
23:20:08 <nooga> long time ago i did some befunge and bf
23:20:17 <nooga> + mangling sadol all the time
23:20:25 <nooga> eg. raytracer in sadol
23:24:15 <AnMaster> nooga, where is the ray tracer in it
23:24:34 <nooga> i wrote raytracer in sadol
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23:35:35 <nooga> AnMaster: did that =.=
23:35:37 <AnMaster> and wth was up with lament above...
23:35:38 <Sgeo> Ok, this is the second time I accidentally spammed M*U*S*H
23:35:45 <AnMaster> nooga, link to the ray tracer?
23:36:34 <GregorR-L> Incidentally, nobody told me that clang can act as a C++->C compiler :P
23:36:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe because we didn't know
23:37:03 <nooga> but my laptop is far away
23:37:06 <GregorR-L> clang compiles to LLVM, LLVM (llc) has a C target.
23:37:12 <nooga> can't access my data today
23:38:07 <ehird> 23:33 lament has joined (n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net)
23:38:07 <ehird> 23:33 lament: GIGANTIC COCKS
23:38:08 <ehird> 23:33 lament has left ("Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much better.")
23:38:20 <ehird> AnMaster: nooga invented SADOL
23:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: but if you want to be passive-aggressive, there are less obvious ways
23:39:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you talking about...
23:40:00 <ehird> <AnMaster> Hey nooga. I think you're being an idiot. I'm going to imply you're off-topic all the time by asking: what exactly have you done for esoteric programming? I seeee.
23:40:14 <ehird> it wasn't particularly subtle.
23:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea why you misinterpreted me like that.
23:40:17 <nooga> i feel this way too
23:40:24 <nooga> but nvm, i am an idiot
23:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird, suggest a better way to ask it in English?
23:40:57 <AnMaster> to me it sounds perfectly non-agressive
23:41:00 <ehird> it's the context, not the question
23:41:12 * ehird shrug. If you didn't mean that I apologize.
23:41:13 <nooga> uhm, yea it sounded a bit
23:41:24 <AnMaster> there wasn't much of a context
23:41:45 <nooga> context: my lame bawwing about something not compiling
23:42:04 <nooga> (as a hacker i should shut up and figure it out)
23:42:12 <AnMaster> oh, that was separate. and well I don't know OS X. I know compiling on windows is a pain though
23:42:18 <AnMaster> no idea how hard it is on OS X
23:42:29 <ehird> compiling on os x is just like compiling on bsd
23:42:30 <AnMaster> ever tried to compile anything using SDL on windows?
23:42:36 <ehird> except your gcc is old unless you append -4.2
23:42:41 <ehird> (even then it's still old, but :))
23:43:51 <nooga> then i don't know what to do
23:44:02 <nooga> configure runs smoothly and then kaboom
23:44:17 <AnMaster> well the sync one is a GCC builtin
23:44:17 <ehird> CC=gcc-4.2 ./configure
23:44:33 <ehird> That removes ./configure.
23:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, no that would be make maintainer-clean
23:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, make distclean remove generated Makefiles
23:45:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah, if it uses autotools I'm sure
23:45:28 <nooga> AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/419385
23:45:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it might be make maintainerclean, not sure if it is a dash there or not
23:46:06 <nooga> AnMaster: scene is hardcoded
23:46:33 <nooga> echo 2 | ./BDSM2 ray.sad > image.ppm
23:46:44 <nooga> where 2 is scale ;p
23:46:49 <ehird> http://pastebin.ca/419385 ← is the output of this any good, i mean most toy raytracers are ~200 lines
23:46:52 <AnMaster> and what is the unit of the scale
23:47:11 <nooga> AnMaster: don't remember
23:47:45 <ehird> my interwebs are going slow
23:47:51 <AnMaster> http://regedit.gamedev.pl/BDSM/
23:48:08 <ehird> http shit isn't loading but irc works
23:48:26 <ehird> http's just going very slow then
23:48:52 <ehird> Zip bombs is the most common way of doing zip.
23:48:56 <ehird> Zips are compressed folders.
23:49:05 <ehird> It's how zips are designed.
23:49:55 <ehird> AnMaster: .obj is .o on windows
23:50:03 <ehird> presumably the makefile was designed by a windowser
23:50:04 <AnMaster> and why not a Makefile, why make.sh
23:50:11 <ehird> AnMaster: because windows
23:50:29 <ehird> i'm sure it's a perfectly valid bat file too
23:50:50 <AnMaster> Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki
23:51:00 <AnMaster> why is there a gpl2.txt in there
23:51:08 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like misplaced boilerplate
23:51:12 <ehird> the page says it's GPL
23:51:15 <nooga> probably this is standard
23:51:20 <ehird> nooga: no, it is not
23:51:24 <ehird> all rights reserved != gpl, very strongly
23:51:37 <AnMaster> nooga, didn't you say you coded it?
23:51:37 <ehird> all rights reserved = just watch the blinkenlights, hands off
23:51:41 <nooga> sdandard header generated by his MSVC
23:51:43 <ehird> nooga: Adam Sawicki
23:51:46 <ehird> Martin Gasperowicz
23:51:57 <ehird> He didn't code the interpreter, evidently.
23:51:57 <nooga> Adam Sawicki implemented SADOL
23:52:04 <AnMaster> This is free software. You may redistribute copies of it under the terms of
23:52:04 <AnMaster> the GNU General Public License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>.
23:52:04 <AnMaster> There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
23:52:06 <nooga> i coded it, in ruby
23:52:15 <nooga> and now i'm coding a compiler
23:52:18 <ehird> AnMaster: 23:51 nooga: sdandard header generated by his MSVC
23:52:27 <ehird> his ide generated the all-rights-reserved thing
23:52:29 <ehird> and he added the gpl manually
23:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, in the output of the help?
23:52:42 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, that I don't know
23:52:45 <AnMaster> Copyright (C) 2005 Adam Sawicki
23:52:50 <nooga> "curse you meddling penguins"
23:53:25 <AnMaster> where is the damn raw line on pastebin...
23:54:02 <nooga> AnMaster: did you run it?
23:55:46 <ehird> everything takes 4 billion years on a sempron
23:56:15 <AnMaster> well.. the fact that the interpreter is compiled without -O doesn't help...
23:57:53 <ehird> AnMaster: upload the output?
23:57:56 <ehird> converted to png, preferably
23:58:06 <AnMaster> ehird, um. It is trivial on your intel :P
23:58:16 <ehird> i'm so the lazy though.
23:58:17 <AnMaster> so clearly uploading it will take longer
23:58:37 <ehird> 's one thing my new i7 won't be able to do: read my mind and act accordingly
23:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, since it took less than a minute on a sempron
23:58:54 <ehird> in fact it'll be even more tedious, since I won't be waiting for any computations— so all the time spent will be drudgery ;-)
23:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I would be scared if it could
23:59:02 <ehird> Powerful computers ruin lives!
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23:59:12 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, I'd like a mind-controlled computer
23:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, because interpreting thoughts would be Strong AI
23:59:15 <ehird> nice and efficient
23:59:26 <ehird> that's like, the strongest AI you can get
23:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, dangerous.. It will be an EVIL i7
23:59:42 <ehird> clearly yudkowsky was not properly involved
23:59:54 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, that make.sh is the linux compilation file for unix, but written by a unixer
00:00:01 <ehird> so not attuned to makefile-and-.o ways
00:00:06 <AnMaster> ehird, do you trust Intel to get it right
00:00:06 <ehird> "linux compilation file for unix"; fix that
00:00:12 <AnMaster> Let me just state two examples:
00:00:26 <ehird> AnMaster: because intel are the only company that makes mistakes
00:00:29 * oerjan put links to his BCT interpreter in /// on the wiki
00:00:32 <ehird> want me to dig up a bunch of AMD gaffs?
00:00:39 <AnMaster> ehird, of course AMD made ones too
00:00:54 <AnMaster> I'm just saying I don't trust Intel to get it right. Nor AMD
00:01:05 <ehird> as long as it has a power supply I can yank out
00:01:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> clearly yudkowsky was not properly involved <-- and after googling I don't understand the reference
00:01:27 <ehird> Eliezer Yudkowsky, Research Fellow at the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence.
00:01:34 <ehird> "Net income▼ $ -3.098 billion (2008) " — [[AMD]]
00:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, Net income ▼ US$5.3 billion (2008) - [[Intel]]
00:02:16 <ehird> errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
00:02:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Intel get $5.3 billion. AMD lose $3 billion.
00:02:41 <ehird> And down arrow = down from last year.
00:02:58 <ehird> So AMD's losing $3bn, Intel's gaining $5.3bn
00:03:03 <ehird> Not very ouch at all.
00:03:26 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, that just dropped it a billion or so
00:03:29 <ehird> still profiting quite a bit
00:04:17 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel#European_Union
00:04:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I am well aware of the fine.
00:04:43 <ehird> They make good products, I buy the products; I get my nice processor, they get money.
00:04:49 <AnMaster> ehird, support suspect marketing tactics?
00:05:05 <ehird> AnMaster: did you buy your microsoft keyboard/mouse?
00:05:12 <ehird> Why are you supporting their suspect marketing tactics?
00:05:16 <ehird> HOW FUN!11128126738213
00:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have a Microsoft keyboard
00:05:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and no, I got it as a present
00:05:46 <ehird> so you'd refuse to buy it
00:06:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd probably test other ones first... But if it was the only one that worked ergonomically I'd probably use it
00:06:53 <ehird> So you'd buy a product from Microsoft, giving them money, "supporting suspect marketing tactics".
00:07:01 <ehird> And this does not make you a hypocrite how?
00:07:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't buy an OS or a CPU though. Anyway I happen to know some Logitech mice are quite nice
00:08:12 <AnMaster> but if it did I would indeed be in a tricky dilemma
00:08:18 <ehird> CPUs are a magical thing. They're entirely different to mice in the context of a market, because *~SPARKLES!~*
00:08:28 <bsmntbombdood> i can't find documentation of sse functions for gcc
00:08:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah... And AMD ones work very well in my experience.
00:09:07 <ehird> AnMaster: So you seriously think that somehow, buying a CPU supports shady marketing, but buying a mouse doesn't, even though they both feed back into the company profits.
00:09:19 <ehird> You, sir, are on crack, and only attempting to justify how you would behave while criticizing me because you don't like the company.
00:09:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I certainly think both do
00:10:08 <ehird> AnMaster: But one is acceptable support of shady marketing practices?
00:10:20 <ehird> Shovel, meet AnMaster. Hole, meet shovel. Dig, dig, dig.
00:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but when there are no alternatives left that work...
00:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: There is no AMD processor that can match the performance of an i7.
00:10:36 <AnMaster> you are sometimes forced to take the least bad action
00:10:44 <ehird> Therefore, there is no alternative left that even exists.
00:10:46 <AnMaster> ehird, then ask yourself: do you actually need that peformance
00:10:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I do not need anything but food, water, warmth, ...
00:11:10 <ehird> But what would I *like*? Yes, I'd like that performance.
00:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, how much power does an i7 use btw
00:11:23 <ehird> I think that the EU fine is enough punishment for Intel.
00:11:42 <ehird> AnMaster: At maximum, around ~380 watts. At idle, about 100 watts.
00:11:56 <ehird> By the way, AnMaster? The Phenoms (AMD's high-end processors) suck up a ton of power.
00:12:02 <ehird> The i7s use way less juice.
00:12:13 <ehird> AnMaster: not just the processor
00:12:15 <ehird> that is the whole system
00:12:26 <ehird> the whole processor is 140W at absolutely maximum load, I believe.
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00:12:54 <ehird> Compared to the Phenoms, it's so green your red and blue subpixels will stop functioning.
00:13:14 <AnMaster> ehird, same. I used one of those watt meter thingies on my system some time ago. When idle with ondemand CPU scheduler it was about 88-91W
00:13:37 <ehird> AnMaster: So... it's about as green as your low end CPU.
00:13:38 <AnMaster> was about 2 years ago I measured
00:13:40 <ehird> I think that's just fine.
00:14:16 <ehird> nooga: Why didn't you hardcode the standard raytracing example?
00:14:45 <nooga> ehird: ah, it's WIP
00:14:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, your system is still only a few dozens of watts less than mine at idle.
00:15:00 <ehird> And I'm using an 80+ efficient CPU, etc.
00:15:10 <ehird> (This is hypothetical; I cba to actually measure it when I get it.)
00:15:17 <nooga> i planned to make a raytracer with multisampling, reflections etc. and write a scene compiler in sadol
00:15:19 <ehird> (But I think I'm approximately on mark.)
00:15:45 <nooga> or maybe... monte-carlo path tracer ;D
00:16:15 <nooga> but after i finish my sadol compiler
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00:17:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you think techniques applied to BF compilation could be applied to underload / unlambad?
00:18:01 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know enough about them to be sure
00:18:35 <AnMaster> stuff like constant folding and dead code elimination is pretty general
00:19:05 <AnMaster> stuff like balanced loops and such: well I don't know enough about ul and ul to be sure
00:19:46 <AnMaster> I'll resume the discussion once you worked out better acronyms!
00:20:15 <ehird> AnMaster: ul = unlambda
00:20:25 <ehird> oerjan: which way around?
00:22:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and I really don't know unl well enough to know what you could do in it
00:22:22 <ehird> it's quite similar to bf
00:22:24 <AnMaster> ul, well I don't know either exactly what would work
00:23:01 <ehird> let's say underload then
00:23:07 <ehird> it's quite similar to bf
00:23:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you can do a bit
00:23:27 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. But a lot of the stuff in bf optimising is "figure out where the damn pointer is"
00:23:28 <ehird> but nobody would write code like that
00:23:44 <ehird> AnMaster: in this case, it'd be "figure out how large the damn stack i"
00:23:55 <AnMaster> well you could try to track that
00:24:09 <AnMaster> possibly relative some prior point
00:24:31 <AnMaster> like you lost track after something that you can't easily decide
00:24:39 <AnMaster> which for bf would be unbalanced loop
00:24:44 <AnMaster> not sure what it would be for ul
00:24:50 <ehird> AnMaster: pushing more than you pop
00:24:59 <ehird> ~ pops 1 (since it combines two elements)
00:25:30 <ehird> * pops 1, and combines
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00:25:37 <ehird> AnMaster: ~ swaps top two elements
00:25:40 <ehird> so no stack change
00:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, is there anywhere you can't easily figure out the stack sise
00:26:02 <ehird> AnMaster: yes -- ^
00:26:04 <ehird> you can do, for instance:
00:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you can know it sometimes for ^
00:26:23 <ehird> but you can infer that too
00:26:32 <ehird> in fact, I'm not sure you can ever not infer it
00:26:44 <ehird> I might write an inferrer to see
00:26:49 <AnMaster> ehird, are there cases you can't infer
00:26:54 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm wondering
00:26:58 <AnMaster> when does this cross the line to compiler
00:27:11 <AnMaster> with compiling to a "output constant string"
00:27:18 <ehird> AnMaster: well, you'd never actually loop
00:27:22 <ehird> to infer the stack effect
00:27:34 <ehird> AnMaster: this wouldn't work if underload had user input, BTW
00:28:00 <AnMaster> you can't possibly infer there
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00:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you can:
00:29:15 <oerjan> ehird: it is easy to push an amount corresponding to a church numeral
00:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: stack effect of :^ is x=[y x [y x → z] → z], where [foo] is a quotation with stack effect foo
00:29:29 <AnMaster> that would be a nice optimisation
00:29:32 <ehird> where x=foo means "foo can mention x"
00:29:43 <AnMaster> into some optimised representation
00:29:50 <ehird> ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] )
00:29:55 <ehird> ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] ) ( x=[y x [y x → z] → z] )
00:30:01 <ehird> and apply the types
00:30:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it just leads to an infinite type
00:30:13 <ehird> which could be handled, with enough care
00:30:15 <ehird> oerjan: do you think so?
00:30:40 <ehird> nooga: inferring underload stack effects
00:30:48 <ehird> oerjan: so we can always infer the stack effect of an underload program in finite time?
00:30:50 <ehird> that's really nice
00:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't you optimise it into a bignum or whatever. I mean some representation that is fast (relatively to original) on a real computer
00:31:14 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
00:31:26 <ehird> oerjan: the opposite— why?
00:31:39 <ehird> but I want to go further
00:31:51 <ehird> oerjan: I don't see why you can't just handle recursive types like (:^), and thus infer any program
00:32:03 <oerjan> ehird: because you can calculate any recursive function it is impossible to calculate a church numeral for sure in finite time
00:32:07 <AnMaster> ehird, for UL the difference between interpreter and optimising compiler seems very very small
00:32:13 <ehird> oerjan: i'm not talking about church numerals‽‽
00:32:26 <AnMaster> ehird, just one generates a program that outputs the same thing
00:32:27 <ehird> oerjan: I'm talking about inferring the stack effect of underload programs
00:32:29 <oerjan> ehird: i was using them to prove you cannot do it
00:33:19 <oerjan> if you have a church numeral on the stack, then ((x))~^^ creates that number of (x) on the stack
00:34:20 <ehird> oerjan: you'd think once you infer (:^):^ properly everything else would be trivial :)
00:34:44 <ehird> oerjan: OTOH, isn't it possible to infer in a large number of cases?
00:35:33 <AnMaster> can't you infer from church numerals? I mean if you constant fold them. into some (church 4) representation.
00:35:54 <ehird> oerjan: explain to him properly :P
00:36:07 <oerjan> ehird: well sure it's probably quite analogous to bf balanced vs. unbalanced loops
00:36:23 <AnMaster> I meant, for many common cases
00:36:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: well sure if they're constants
00:36:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes of course you could build new ones
00:36:56 <AnMaster> and then you couldn't in general
00:37:37 <AnMaster> is optimising unbalanced loops
00:38:02 <AnMaster> like constant propagation to put a upper bound on the range of a [>]
00:38:21 <AnMaster> where I mean the constant propagation has the needed data sometimes
00:38:37 <ehird> AnMaster: does your compiler optimize >>>>>+<<<<<[>]+ into p[5] = 2;?
00:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, not yet. But it is planned
00:38:58 <AnMaster> ehird, is 6th item in my private TODO
00:39:23 <AnMaster> ehird, currently in-between sometimes does better, and sometimes esotope does better
00:39:37 <AnMaster> often on different parts of the same program
00:40:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I would have finished polynoms today, but this headache got in the way
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00:50:25 <ehird> i love sse instructions
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00:57:14 <nooga> porting MFC to iphone O_o
00:57:59 <coppro> that's the ABSOLUTE DUMBEST THING I have EVER heard
00:58:44 <ehird> coppro: he's porting some windows-shit application to the iphone
00:58:48 <ehird> and, um, apparently he's not porting it?
00:58:58 <ehird> nooga: i think you should go and choke on something before you do any more damage
00:59:04 <coppro> MFC is one of the worst libraries ever written
00:59:15 <coppro> it should not have been ported to Windows, much less the iPhone
00:59:50 * coppro goes and kills somebody
01:00:06 <ehird> coppro: don't you think you're overreacting a little
01:05:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Foundation_Class_Library
01:07:14 <pikhq> (and I mean no offense... To shit.)
01:07:33 <coppro> the wikipedia article failes to properly represent it
01:08:00 <ehird> *typeos, I suppose
01:08:05 <pikhq> I'm especially curious why one would use C++ on the iPhone.
01:08:05 <nooga> but i'm porting massive library that strongly depends on MFC and other M$ shit
01:08:23 <pikhq> You've got Objective C as the normal language.
01:08:24 <nooga> and we decided to port some parts of MFC
01:08:25 <ehird> nooga: you're evilorrible
01:08:28 <pikhq> nooga: Rewrite it.
01:08:31 <ehird> please jump out of a window
01:08:37 <nooga> it was written for 3 years
01:08:57 <pikhq> nooga: 'Porting' MFC (reimplementing it) will take more time.
01:09:32 <nooga> just some core classes
01:09:46 <nooga> like CString CTime CSize CTimeSpan... etc etc
01:11:26 <ehird> Now think about what you've done!
01:11:38 <nooga> it's just my job lol
01:11:59 <nooga> i try to keep cool abt that
01:12:10 <nooga> besides, i never used mfc
01:12:46 <pikhq> I'd sooner rewrite the STL.
01:12:58 <pikhq> And the STL makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
01:25:51 <ehird> http://plasmasturm.org/log/542/
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02:23:23 <Gracenotes> would calling my ISP about my fucking slow connection do anything?
02:23:52 <Gracenotes> maybe I'll talk to my parents about pitching in for getting a better rate, if it's low atm, just for the summer
02:26:12 <ehird> "To pull something from L1 cache is like looking at something already on your desk. L2 cache is like asking the guy in the cube next to you. L3 cache is like driving to the other side of town and coming back with your answer. Main memory is like writing a letter to someone in Taiwan and waiting for the response."
02:44:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Accessing the disk is like ordering something from a mail-order catalog.
03:03:00 <bsmntbombdood> ok, i think i kind of know how to do a sort of odd/even sort with sse
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04:23:15 <bsmntbombdood> i am backing up data from my old drive...it seems that bzip2 is the bottleneck
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05:07:52 <GregorR-L> And downloading something from the network is like what, reading smoke signals from Andromeda? :P
05:08:24 <bsmntbombdood> a local network can have a lot less latency than an hdd
05:13:19 <Gracenotes> okay. Here I was thinking that Firefly was okay so far, but... it suddenly got much much better
05:15:26 <bsmntbombdood> Gracenotes: pi = 3.14152625 after 1000000000 iterations
05:15:56 <Gracenotes> awesome! ... I still haven't gotten around to implementing it, darn it
05:16:46 <Gracenotes> forgot, lambdabot not in here >_> Haskell not esoteric enough
05:16:50 <bsmntbombdood> they are 64 bit ints from some mersenne twister implementation i pulled of the web
05:16:52 <Gracenotes> I think I meant to do logBase 10, too.
05:19:08 <Gracenotes> how much more do you think another billion would help?
05:19:53 <GregorR-L> ghci is GHC /interactive/, not GHC /interpreter/ :P
05:21:13 <Gracenotes> threads can't do much if there's one CPU context-switching all the time :)
05:22:57 <GregorR-L> You'd think you could do better with 2 billion iterations ....
05:24:07 <GregorR-L> My brain, after 1 iteration, pi = 3.14159265358979323
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05:25:58 <Gracenotes> you might also have a limit with the floating point itself
05:26:19 <Gracenotes> interestingly, you could also try to predict how many out of the 10000000000 would be coprime
05:26:32 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: The interrational tub of esoteric programming language designers and soap. No soap, radio! Pass the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:27:20 <Gracenotes> which Haskell kindly tells me is 6079271019
05:29:05 <Gracenotes> I'd imagine a Haskell solution could be nicely optimized
05:29:43 <Gracenotes> it's not a difficult algorithm. n times, check GCD of two random large numbers; increment a counter if it's 1....
05:30:05 <Gracenotes> if we unbox strict field, or as I like to call it, funboxing. :/
05:30:59 <Gracenotes> in Haskell, there are primitive types like Int#
05:31:22 <Gracenotes> actually, no, it doesn't have to do with primitive types
05:31:42 <Gracenotes> or does it? Either way, it removes the constructor if it can
05:31:59 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: you might be surprised :)
05:32:09 <bsmntbombdood> wait there's a better gcd algorithm than euclid or whatever's right?
05:33:03 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: well... I'm sure there are more efficient ways to check if two numbers are coprime
05:33:19 <Gracenotes> Euler's algorithm is the most efficient GCD-taker I know of though
05:34:29 <bsmntbombdood> gonna go for another order of maginitude, i'll have a result in 90 minutes
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05:45:04 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: how many digits you listed is based on a value of pi you already have?
06:01:59 <bsmntbombdood> 23:01:43 up 1:53, 30 users, load average: 8.13, 8.00, 8.00
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06:10:13 <bsmntbombdood> gprof doesn't work will with multiple processes :(
06:20:12 <bsmntbombdood> ouch, looks like most of my time is spent calculating gcds
06:22:24 <Gracenotes> right. not much I can find on the internet about more efficient means of checking coprime, though
06:22:36 <Gracenotes> you're using the iterative version, of course?
06:22:49 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking that generating the random numbers would be slower
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06:23:51 <bsmntbombdood> the completely trivial one though--http://pastebin.ca/1429617
06:26:30 <Gracenotes> here is a possible optimization, a precheck mentioned: http://echochamber.me/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22215
06:26:40 <bsmntbombdood> looks like there are algorithms that are asymptotically better, but n is relatively small here
06:27:57 <Gracenotes> well, we could use numbers that big. Would need special facilities though
06:28:21 <Gracenotes> if all you're doing is generating them to check if they're coprime, after all. Still, would be slower
06:28:56 <Gracenotes> anyway. gcd is efficient... enough. Some checks at the beginning (both even?) might help a bit, perhaps
06:29:05 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.springerlink.com/content/7042685247876171/
06:30:24 <Gracenotes> if any binary digits on the lower end are the same, they're not coprime
06:31:22 <Gracenotes> argh. But yeah, those come rarer for more and more 0s
06:34:32 <Gracenotes> hm... sort of a long-shot, but try making the function inline?
06:34:45 <Gracenotes> then again if you already have -O3 or suchlike it probably already is
06:43:39 <Gracenotes> well. anyway, the probabilistic algorithm would seem interesting
06:43:59 <Gracenotes> it might introduce a systemic bias in the pi calculation though
07:15:42 <Gracenotes> Perhaps you need higher numbers than 2^64-1 for better accuracy?
07:16:55 <Gracenotes> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprime#Probabilities
07:17:14 <Gracenotes> as N -> infinity, the probability goes to 6/pi^2
07:18:25 <Gracenotes> there must be some way to calculate how many digits you can get from an N
07:18:50 <Gracenotes> related directly to the Riemann zeta function, particularly
07:19:28 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: slower yet, but perhaps better results :D
07:20:33 <bsmntbombdood> i can't find the mpz function to convert from a bit array
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10:56:55 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
11:00:51 <oerjan> !c printf("%c", log(1000000000.0));
11:01:04 <oerjan> !c printf("%f", log(1000000000.0));
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11:04:52 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> ghci is GHC /interactive/, not GHC /interpreter/ :P
11:07:51 <oerjan> however, that takes an entire module iiuc
11:08:07 <oerjan> (not that adding main = is that much trouble)
11:08:54 <oerjan> GregorR-L: oh, also ghc -e
11:16:26 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> 10000000000 iterations, pi = 3.1415826392666
11:16:48 <oerjan> the precision may depend not just on the number of iterations, but also on the sizes of the numbers you test
11:18:22 <oerjan> the (probability of gcd = 1) being p^2/6 is a limit as number range size goes to infinity, after all
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11:22:13 <oerjan> it comes from that product over an expression in primes
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11:33:50 <oerjan> Main> product [1/(1-fromInteger p^^(-2)) | p <- take 100 primes]
11:33:50 <oerjan> 1.64451522172429 :: Double
11:33:50 <oerjan> 1.64493406684823 :: Double
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11:39:02 <oerjan> hm maybe that's relatively fast anyway
11:45:40 <oerjan> if the length of range of numbers selected is divisible by a prime, then the product term from that prime fits perfectly
11:46:42 <oerjan> and if the range is much huger than that, the probability of not fitting inside such a range becomes miniscule
11:47:00 <oerjan> *inside such a subrange
11:47:53 <oerjan> so for million digit numbers, primes < 10^100 say, should give practically no error
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11:48:17 <oerjan> and that's about 10^100/(100 ln 10) primes, by the prime number theorem
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11:48:46 <oerjan> someone probably calculated/tested this already.
11:50:05 <Sgeo> On some Facebook quiz: "Your best friend tells you (s)he's pregnant. What is your reaction?"
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11:55:11 <AnMaster> I just managed to transform some unbalanced loops into ifs
11:58:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you want to read Darth&Droids today... Pirate ninjas!
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12:33:38 * oerjan swats AnMaster for spoiling -----###
12:33:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought you read it already
12:34:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, get a water proof computer :D
12:35:32 <AnMaster> I changed something completely unrelated
12:35:51 <AnMaster> related to loop -> if conversion
12:36:08 <AnMaster> for no sane reason as far as I can see
12:37:11 <oerjan> a harmless reordering?
12:37:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure, but it shouldn't happen
12:38:34 <AnMaster> anyway it is not very harmless. It is supposed to sort by offset when possible.
12:43:51 <AnMaster> it didn't properly recurse into all types of loops. Just the standard loop type.
12:44:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway I think in-between is the first compiler that can optimise _some_ unbalanced BF loops into ifs.
12:45:03 <Slereah_> Would it be easy to program Limp on Mathematica?
12:45:19 <Slereah_> It's full of math shit that might be useful, so I wonder
12:46:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw... I have a question...
12:47:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, sorting BF instructions by offset has many restructions, for example it must be a stable sort ([-]+ isn't same as +[-]) and you can't swap two output or input instructions with each other.
12:48:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, currently I'm using something like a gnome sort. Which is a bit slow for lostking
12:48:34 <AnMaster> any idea of a better one that will still be able to handle the various restrictions
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12:53:42 <oerjan> it sounds more like a topological sort than an ordinary sort, since there are a lot of pair restrictions?
12:55:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, interesting. Yeah it seems so
12:55:30 <AnMaster> (after a quick read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_sorting)
12:56:05 <AnMaster> maybe implementing it as a graph of cells using each other would be useful...
12:56:26 <AnMaster> wouldn't work at all with current code which uses linked lists to create a parse tree
12:56:46 <AnMaster> it would allow tracking dependencies nicely and so on
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12:57:06 <AnMaster> not sure how to handle unbalanced loops in that though...
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13:08:09 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> the completely trivial one though--http://pastebin.ca/1429617
13:08:24 <oerjan> wait, you are using _unsigned long_ for the selected numbers?
13:08:48 <oerjan> i'm not sure that is large enough for a good precision
13:08:59 <oerjan> (not sure it isn't, either)
13:13:42 <oerjan> as for shortcuts, you could select both numbers odd from the outset, and just multiply the probability by ... 3/4, i think
13:15:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is he using that gcd implementation for
13:15:43 <oerjan> calculating pi using random numbers
13:16:01 <AnMaster> ah that one mentioned yesterday
13:16:29 <oerjan> i am just responding to the logs
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17:27:35 <ehird> 01:33 bsmntbombdood: ehird: what is accessing the disk then?
17:28:11 <ehird> waiting for time travel to be invented, going back to 1977, hopping on voyager 2, interpreting the geometry of the universe,
17:28:15 <ehird> waiting until you wrap around to earth,
17:28:24 <ehird> and then entering the bits with magnets
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17:33:17 <ehird> oerjan: think that's accurate?
17:35:25 <ehird> 17:27 ehird: 01:33 bsmntbombdood: ehird: what is accessing the disk then?
17:35:25 <ehird> 17:28 ehird: waiting for time travel to be invented, going back to 1977, hopping on voyager 2, interpreting the geometry of the universe,
17:35:27 <ehird> 17:28 ehird: waiting until you wrap around to earth,
17:35:29 <ehird> 17:28 ehird: and then entering the bits with magnets
17:36:41 * oerjan had to look up bsmntbombdood's original too
17:37:16 <ehird> "USB FLOPPY DISK STRIPED RAID UNDER OS X" http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm
17:37:42 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure that's accurate
17:38:09 <oerjan> what is the approximate ratio from main memory to main disk?
17:38:24 <ehird> oerjan: main memory is molasses-slow, disk is astronomically slow
17:39:01 <ehird> oerjan: i mean, to access the disk on a mechanical HD
17:39:06 <oerjan> that's equivalent to your _claim_, which i need numbers for in order to assess whether it's accurate
17:39:11 <ehird> you have to send the request across the quite slow connection
17:39:17 <ehird> it then has to seek
17:39:23 <ehird> which is so slow you can hear it!
17:39:30 <ehird> then it has to read it, and send the data back on the connection
17:39:33 <ehird> whereas, memory on a modern CPU:
17:39:53 <ehird> send the request across a fast transport, the RAM gets the data very quickly, and sends it back
17:40:18 <ehird> oerjan: memory takes something like 100 cycles. the fastest mechanical HD (VelociRaptor) can do a read from a random position of the harddrive in *7 milliseconds*
17:40:27 <ehird> so... no comparison
17:40:40 <oerjan> and i need numbers because (1) i have no intuition and little knowledge about hardware (2) my ballpark estimation ability is nearly nonexistent even for non-hardware subjects
17:40:59 <oerjan> i don't even know how much a cycle is nowadays
17:41:17 <oerjan> <- software guy at very abstract level at best
17:41:32 <ehird> oerjan: 7ms = 7,000,000 nanoseconds, ram goes at like 3nanoseconds/cycle
17:42:28 <ehird> oerjan: no, you've got two more zeros there
17:42:37 <ehird> disk is about a million times slower than RAM
17:42:52 <ehird> ok, so a letter to taiwan vs time travel, voyager 2, is more than a million
17:42:56 <ehird> but analogy-wise...
17:43:04 <oerjan> why couldn't you have said that when i asked for a fraction in the first place? :D
17:43:15 <ehird> cuz I had to google it
17:43:23 <ehird> oerjan: note that if you have an SSD, it's 0.1ms
17:43:32 <ehird> oerjan: = 100,000 nanoseconds
17:43:40 <ehird> still molasses slow, but, faster.
17:43:45 <ehird> I had to google the speeds
17:44:15 <oerjan> circle around earth ~= 1/7 light second iirc
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17:44:42 <oerjan> so, 1/3 million light seconds
17:44:54 <ehird> haha wow you're actually working it out
17:45:48 <oerjan> about 3.85 light days, barely out of the solar system
17:46:18 <oerjan> otoh there was that issue of snail mail vs. light speed
17:47:19 <oerjan> ok in time it's more impressive, say a week for mail to taiwan (see my lacking ability for ballparking)
17:47:58 <oerjan> that's about the age of the universe, right? ;D
17:49:01 <oerjan> dammit i forgot i'd cancelled the 7
17:53:59 * ehird burns an arch linux cd
17:54:10 <asiekierka> What's the hardest assembly language EVER
17:54:17 <asiekierka> that's the hardest to write in assembly
17:54:28 <asiekierka> Probably NOT x86, 6502, or any of deriatives of thes
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17:56:01 <oerjan> asiekierka: may i interest you in Malbolge Unshackled?
17:56:08 * oerjan cackles uncontrollably
17:56:17 <oerjan> oh right, that's machine code
17:56:25 <oerjan> a very *evil* machine's code
17:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you think about Darth & Droids today
17:56:58 <asiekierka> Well, I still want to have a machine that does SUBLEQ
17:56:58 <ehird> I don't read that comic.
17:57:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you will love the one today
17:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.darthsanddroids.net/
17:58:20 <ehird> you laugh now, but will you laugh when your home is destroyed by their power?
17:58:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you said before they couldn't be combined
17:58:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't laugh. It was you who did
17:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: they couldn't be combined *safely*
17:58:57 <ehird> AnMaster: think strange quarks
18:00:12 <ehird> i'm going to install arch as a second os on this mac
18:00:22 <ehird> hope I don't fuck anything up
18:00:58 <AnMaster> ehird, as always: make backups
18:01:09 <ehird> i don't have any viable backup media
18:01:19 <ehird> and even if I did I'd wait until I get my new pc
18:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, be careful with fdisk stuff
18:01:28 <ehird> and when I get my new pc, backing up will be unfeasible
18:01:42 <ehird> since enough media to back up 160GB+2TB for a long time incrementally is... expensive
18:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, just buy almost as much external storage
18:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: almost as much? you mean more
18:02:08 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you backup
18:02:21 <ehird> incrementally, but if I buy less storage then I can't use any more than that
18:02:23 <AnMaster> full every time: a bit less, no need to back up /tmp and /var/tmp
18:02:27 <ehird> which is redonkulous
18:02:43 <ehird> 18:02 AnMaster: full every time: a bit less, no need to back up /tmp and /var/tmp ← uhm that'd only handle one backup
18:02:55 <ehird> i want to keep backups forever, you see
18:03:11 <ehird> sure is if you buy a lot of storage
18:03:25 <AnMaster> you don't need to back up anything installed from package manager (exception: config files), since they can be restored by package manager easily
18:03:37 <AnMaster> nor most of the things in /var/cache and similiar
18:03:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i could just back up ~
18:03:40 <ehird> but I like snapshots
18:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I would probably do ~ and /etc
18:03:57 <ehird> keeping backups forever = ubiquitous revision control of all my computing
18:04:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, put your entire ~ in git?
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: that requires manual effort to commit, annotate, etc, and storing .git locally would be infeasible
18:04:41 <AnMaster> possibly exclude ~/vcs-checkouts so you can check out other git projects and such
18:04:49 <ehird> i don't mind it being hard to flip through the backups later on
18:04:52 <ehird> as long as it's possible
18:05:06 <ehird> that's why, e.g. i prefer to archive in raw form things like irc logs, emails
18:05:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... I fail to see where you would find the needed storage
18:05:43 <ehird> AnMaster: 160GB + 12TB = 2208GB
18:05:53 <AnMaster> ehird, generally, raw for for irc is pretty verbose. more so than using a partly parsed for
18:05:53 <ehird> let's say that 10GB of the OS drive is used
18:06:10 <ehird> let's say that 500GB of the 2TB drive is used
18:06:20 <ehird> the os drive includes ~
18:06:25 <ehird> so let's say 60GB of the OS driv
18:06:28 <ehird> and 500GB of the 2TB drive
18:06:37 <ehird> so a non-incremental backup = 560GB
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18:06:57 <ehird> 560GB for first backup
18:06:59 <AnMaster> ehird, but you forget that it will be compressed when backed up
18:07:05 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, of course
18:07:15 <ehird> the 500GB isn't very compressable
18:07:16 <AnMaster> ehird, but in worst case, yeah
18:07:18 <ehird> since it's movies/etc
18:07:27 <ehird> the 60GB could probably compress to, let's say, 45
18:07:32 <ehird> so 545GB for a non-incremental backup
18:07:41 <ehird> now, let's say that each monthly backup changes 1GB of data
18:08:21 <ehird> so ten years is 120GB
18:08:35 <ehird> now let's say that instead 10GB/mo changes, compressed
18:08:37 <ehird> that's excessive, but
18:08:45 <AnMaster> ehird, was this going to include /usr/bin and such?
18:08:54 <ehird> so 1200GB ten years
18:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, but not /tmp. It wouldn't make sense to include /tmp
18:09:28 <ehird> i'd want to do non-incremental backups often
18:09:33 <ehird> and I won't keep this system for 10 bloody years
18:09:35 <ehird> but those two cancel out
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18:09:47 <ehird> now, a 2TB drive costs
18:10:15 <Deewiant> 2TB of storage costs around 200€
18:10:21 <Deewiant> In a single drive, more than thata
18:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, you could have two storage units, you don't want to overwrite your only full backup, what if it fails when you are doing the backup
18:10:28 <ehird> ok, a 1TB drive costs,
18:10:58 <ehird> so let's say we buy 4
18:11:03 <ehird> for a total of 4TB backup space
18:11:09 <ehird> plus the cost of an external drive enclosure
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18:11:23 <AnMaster> ehird, plus a fire proof wall mounted safe?
18:11:38 <ehird> AnMaster: unfortunately I'm not egotistical enough to convince myself my works are worth surviving that :)
18:11:44 <ehird> especially since I likely wouldn't
18:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if you got out of the building in time
18:12:10 <ehird> i'd die trying to drag the safe with me :-P
18:12:31 <AnMaster> ah better to NOT have a safe, so you can easily take the backup with you
18:12:41 <ais523_> AnMaster: I don't get why the "wall mounted"
18:12:53 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:13:01 <ehird> ais523: it looks coolr
18:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523_, maybe wrong word. I meant those that is mounted to the support structure, so it is hard to steal
18:13:11 <ais523> flash drives may be better for backups, if you aren't backing lots of stuff up
18:13:18 <ais523> because they easily fit in your pocket in an emergency
18:13:31 <ehird> ais523: er, it was in the context of buying 4TB of backup space
18:13:31 <AnMaster> ais523, he is talking about 500 GB+
18:13:53 <ehird> so unless e.g. SSDs suddenly turn really cheap, that's not feasible
18:13:59 <ehird> OTOH, mechanical disks are unreliable
18:14:07 <ehird> OTOOH, I've never had one fail me
18:14:23 <ehird> but that was my fault
18:15:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you are welcome to donate 4TB of tape to me
18:15:41 <AnMaster> hm... What languages would you say have sane macro systems btw?
18:16:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is open for discussion.
18:16:31 <ehird> I've never seen another sane one.
18:16:37 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm using "good" as the definition.
18:16:51 <pikhq> There's not many that are all that good.
18:17:07 <pikhq> ehird: If you can call Forth's words 'macros', then Forth, too.
18:17:08 <Deewiant> GHC's Template Haskell is semi-good
18:17:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah but it's not really elegant.
18:17:23 <Deewiant> I.e. modulo implementation restrictions
18:17:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the erlang one is pretty sane, for being text replace based... All uses of macros must be prefixed with ?. And they are fairly limited.
18:17:47 <Deewiant> Like the fact that the macros have to be defined in a different module than where they're used, coupled with the fact that only one module per file is allowed
18:17:49 <ehird> "Text replace based"
18:17:52 <ehird> You are disqualified.
18:18:09 <ehird> AnMaster: can you install pkgs from arch livecd
18:18:10 <Deewiant> D has handy string macros, but yeah... string macros.
18:18:11 <AnMaster> since blah blah makes no sense
18:18:28 <ehird> AnMaster: to install irssi to chat while I install.
18:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I only ever done net install
18:18:32 <ehird> s/chat/bug you all/
18:18:44 <ehird> containing a minimal linux setup
18:18:55 <AnMaster> ehird, and no idea. Why not create a cheap VM and try it ;P
18:19:04 <ehird> cuz it's cheaper to reboot!
18:19:18 <ehird> see you later green suckers of amazing
18:19:59 <AnMaster> "<ehird> ←←←←←←←←←→" <-- Hm... Assuming that they are matching... He is more "here" than ever before
18:21:50 <ais523> AnMaster: I believe presence in a channel is saturating
18:22:12 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:22:22 <ehird_> it's better than kubuntu.
18:22:35 <ehird_> it recognized my wireless kb and mouse!
18:22:39 <ehird_> without doing anything!
18:23:09 <ehird_> wait mouse isn't wireless, w/e, kb is wireless w/ bluetooth and it goddamn recognized it
18:23:25 <ehird_> i can almost forgive it for being text-based
18:23:46 <ehird_> AnMaster- can you hear me?
18:24:10 <ais523> also, what OS is that?
18:24:30 <ehird_> Arch Linux install CD.
18:24:51 <ehird_> ofc, it's the bios emulation recognizing my bluetooth KB, but dammit, kubuntu didn't do it!
18:25:24 <ehird_> there's a possibility it won't work in X, but I doubt it
18:25:46 <ehird_> OK, time to break everything by partitioning
18:25:56 <ehird_> god nc is a terrible irc client
18:26:11 <pikhq> You should install a copy of RawIRC.
18:26:23 <ehird_> heh, heh, heh, cfdisk refuses to run 'cuz of GPT. Tells me to use parted.
18:26:32 <ehird_> time to see if pacman works on a ramdisk
18:27:14 <AnMaster> AnMaster, not with a - after no
18:27:48 <ehird_> anmaster it says protocol error when it tries to download the package list when i do pacman ;;;;(
18:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird_, um... sounds like network is broken?
18:28:10 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe mirror list is wrong
18:28:17 <AnMaster> it is in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist
18:28:20 <ehird_> how can i change what mirror I'm using? /etc/- ah
18:28:34 <ehird_> /etc/pacman.conf right
18:28:42 <AnMaster> ehird_, err that is not for the mirror list
18:28:46 <AnMaster> that is for the over all config
18:28:57 <AnMaster> mirror list is in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist or /etc/pacman.d/mirror_list
18:29:06 <ehird_> I want to force one particular mirror.
18:29:06 <AnMaster> not sure, and arch computer is turned off due to cleaning
18:29:19 <ehird_> "add your preferred mirrors here" --pacman.conf
18:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, then comment the other ones out and just uncomment the one you want
18:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird_, never done it that way
18:29:51 <ehird_> ah works now, luck of the draw
18:30:38 <ehird_> *fuck*, it already has parted, haha
18:30:59 <ehird_> [1~[5~argh, I can't scroll up.
18:31:38 <AnMaster> nc doesn't use pageup to to scroll
18:31:46 <ehird_> AnMaster: it's a console, you silly.
18:31:57 <ehird_> it works in none of the
18:32:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you may want to use the key combo for linux vt scroll then. which only seems to work until you switch vt
18:32:15 <ehird_> AnMaster: can you provide start/end to parted as anything other than sectors or whatever?
18:32:37 <AnMaster> ehird_, no idea. I tend to use fdisk or gparted
18:33:27 <ehird_> Apple's partition table thing != BIOS's.
18:33:29 <AnMaster> and if you already have free space at the end, which I assume, since you probably used bootcamp to free up some space?
18:33:42 <ehird_> nah, I have the drives from my old Kubuntu
18:34:00 <ehird_> AnMaster, could you "parted\nhelp" and tell me how to lit partitions?
18:34:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well ok, can't you just do that and mkfs on them
18:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird_, how short is your scrollback but ok
18:34:42 <ehird_> what is the vt scroll combo?
18:35:00 <AnMaster> print [devices|free|list,all|NUMBER] display the partition table, available devices, free space, all found partitions, or a particular partition
18:35:35 <AnMaster> it probably only works for frame buffer consoles
18:35:57 <ehird_> so vga. AnMaster, what is the cmd to add a partition? add odnes't work
18:37:59 <AnMaster> ehird_, sorry was afk, had to clean my glasses
18:38:06 <AnMaster> mkfs NUMBER FS-TYPE make a FS-TYPE file system on partititon NUMBER
18:38:06 <AnMaster> mkpart PART-TYPE [FS-TYPE] START END make a partition
18:38:06 <AnMaster> mkpartfs PART-TYPE FS-TYPE START END make a partition with a file system
18:38:27 <AnMaster> ehird_, it can probably only handle basic ones
18:38:32 <ehird_> lolwtf, it wants a partition name :-)
18:38:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also that help is LESS than 25 lines.
18:39:04 <AnMaster> how can you not be able to read it
18:39:33 <AnMaster> wait ok, some lines are longer than 80
18:40:35 <ehird_> Support for creating ext3 filesystems is not sdfksdf yet. lol ok
18:40:53 <AnMaster> ehird, just create partition then manually create file system
18:41:13 <ehird_> yeah. swap partitions have no fs right?
18:41:40 -!- tombom has joined.
18:42:01 <AnMaster> ehird_, just adds some header think. NOTE: mkswap doesn't ask for confirmation!
18:42:10 <ehird_> The installer will do that. AnMaster: wtf, parted is daemanding a partition type even for @"mkpart" and i dunno what to give it, it won't accept swap
18:42:23 <AnMaster> ehird, err that is the number think I assume
18:43:05 <ehird_> AnMaster: do i need to run any command to save? or does just quit work
18:43:06 <AnMaster> PART-TYPE is one of: primary, logical, extended
18:43:10 -!- asiekierka has quit.
18:43:21 <ehird_> i'm using the prompt version, and that doesn't apply to GPT iirc
18:43:32 <ehird_> if you omit params it prompts you
18:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm using the prompt too: help mkpart
18:43:38 <ehird_> but yeah is there a save/write command?
18:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird_, btw parted has tab completion
18:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird_, fun, help doesn't list all commands
18:45:36 <AnMaster> like "mktable" (don't do it, help mktable says it is for changing between GPT, MBR and so on)
18:45:38 <ehird_> it's installing time!!
18:46:19 <ehird_> i have an itch vto install w3m. bloody internet addiction
18:48:09 <AnMaster> ehird_, might be useful in case you need have issues with X and need to google to find out how to solve it
18:48:46 <ehird_> i mean on this ramdisk :-)
18:49:32 <ehird_> but I have every faith in Xorg's auto-detection. probably. i mean, evdev is the only thing that actually works with one of the mice i have :-)
18:51:57 <ehird_> THIS IS THE X86 CD NOT THE X86_64 ONE
18:54:36 <ehird> raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage
18:54:36 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:55:03 * ehird downloads the Real Fucking CD
18:56:22 <ehird> AnMaster: excuse me, be annoyed
18:56:57 <ehird> well it'd work just fine
18:57:02 <ehird> but not very 64bitlovefesty
18:57:18 <ehird> http://www.crooksdesign.co.uk/stock-photography-misuse.html ← ah, the BNP
18:57:31 <ehird> such irritating xenophobes
18:57:42 <ehird> (british national"ist" party)
18:57:45 <AnMaster> hm, is it possible to make a tail recursive version of the _Extended_ GCD.
18:57:53 <ehird> AnMaster: paste the code
18:58:28 <ehird> AnMaster: not truly tail recursive, no, it seems
18:58:29 <AnMaster> just based it on pseudo code found on wikipedia
18:58:33 <ehird> ofc, you could continuation-passing-style
18:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an iterative style
18:58:39 <ehird> but that just sucks up another part of memory
18:58:45 <ehird> AnMaster: show the iterative style
18:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, would be flooding on irc. sec for link
18:59:05 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Euclidean_algorithm#Iterative_method
18:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, you could do that
18:59:29 <ehird> AnMaster: change every variable in the pseudocode to a parameter
18:59:34 <AnMaster> ehird, would be rather inelegant though
18:59:34 <ehird> to change a variable, recurse with its new value
18:59:51 <ehird> AnMaster: so do it :)
19:00:46 <ehird> http://www.crooksdesign.co.uk/images/bnp_poster.jpg ← this is a polish plane
19:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like an UK one to me.
19:01:22 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/04/polish_spitfire/
19:01:40 <AnMaster> ehird, Spitfire is originally from UK though
19:02:02 <ehird> but for a party that goes around talking about how polish immigrants are ruining the UK with their devil fire and Muslins...
19:05:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Muslin is a type of fibre.
19:05:18 <ehird> It is destroying the world.
19:05:21 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with Polish
19:05:28 <ais523> ehird: if muslin is involved, then would polish immigrants refer to making things shinier?
19:05:42 <ehird> AnMaster: right wingers often misspell muslim as muslin
19:05:46 <ehird> because they're ignorant, see.
19:06:21 <ehird> "with their devil fire and Muslims"
19:06:27 <ehird> i.e., they're collaborating with muslims to end the world
19:06:39 <ehird> it's a joke, see. about the BNP's "send all immigrants back!!12182374" policy.
19:07:03 <ehird> fire personally provided by the devil?
19:07:54 <ehird> AnMaster: to basically sum up the BNP, their founder once said "Mein Kampf is my bible"
19:08:01 <ehird> and correct, but I made up "devil fire"
19:10:24 <ehird> "Text adventure blockbusters Zork I II III (PC/MAC) now free from Infocom!"
19:10:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: the table method listed on wp can be made to work tail recursive
19:10:35 <ehird> that's the old pirate site, I think
19:10:42 <ehird> what a disappointm—
19:10:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, which is the most efficient one though
19:11:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: don't ask me such questions :D
19:12:35 <oerjan> because accurate speed and efficiency is incompatible with how my brain works. or something.
19:17:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh, the table method and the iterative method may be equivalent. i was confused by how the description of the latter seemed to calculate the quotients first, but the pseudocode seems to interleave them
19:18:13 <pikhq> I don't want an efficient method.
19:18:16 <pikhq> I want a fast method.
19:18:40 <ehird> pikhq: i may have to slap you for that practical remark
19:18:41 <pikhq> (10 trillion CPUs for a single calculation is absurdly fast. It sure as hell isn't efficient. :D)
19:18:55 <pikhq> ehird: Not practical.
19:19:10 <pikhq> It's a desire for a room of blinkenlights.
19:19:12 <AnMaster> huh, the iterative one return one more result than the recursive one
19:19:15 <ehird> THEORY TRUMPS EVER— oh okay
19:19:16 <Deewiant> I don't want a practical method.
19:19:32 <ehird> is that good or bad
19:20:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps that a is just the gcd
19:21:15 <oerjan> the recursive one only returns the coefficients
19:21:51 <pikhq> Deewiant: Get 100 of the uber-build that ehird and I built.
19:21:54 <AnMaster> gcd_test:extended_gcd_rec(3, 9).
19:22:01 <ehird> pikhq: it wasn't all that fast
19:22:09 <ehird> isn't gonna really do anything for speed
19:22:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: right, the latter doesn't return the actual gcd. easy to modify though.
19:22:30 <pikhq> ehird: It had 32 cores.
19:22:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah. But I'm going for iterative one. Now just to clean it up
19:22:39 <pikhq> That's ridiculously fast.
19:22:48 <ehird> that doesn't cost $80k
19:23:00 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/0LVnQZ12.html is the "raw" translation of it
19:23:05 <AnMaster> there are some pointless variables there
19:24:44 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/Oy8qYb13.html that is better
19:24:54 <AnMaster> of course it could be merged into the call if we wanted
19:25:27 <ehird> AnMaster: extended_gcd(A, B, X, Y, LastX, LastY) -> Quot = A div B, extended_gcd(B, A rem B, LastX-Quot*X, LastY-Quot*Y, X, Y)
19:26:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that calculating div and rem simultaneously can be faster iirc if you have a function for it
19:26:22 <AnMaster> and since erlang doesn't actually need newlines there you could do it all in one line, apart from the initial -module(gcd_test). which needs to be on a separate one
19:26:29 <ehird> oerjan: dude he's using erlang
19:26:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't think I have... but it is possible erlang optimises that
19:26:57 <oerjan> ehird: i don't know if erlang does, i know haskell has it
19:27:15 <ehird> oerjan: i meant, microöptimization hardly helps
19:27:35 <ais523> ehird: haha, I love your technically-speaking-correct Englih
19:27:54 <oerjan> ehird: but if the bignum routines take most of the time, still...
19:27:58 <ehird> ais523: yes, the diaeresis is a true friend of mine
19:28:13 <ehird> what's its use called in English?
19:28:19 * oerjan recalls that his brain is not supposed to care about speed and efficiency
19:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: preëmptive
19:28:32 <ehird> micro-optimization used to be microöptimization
19:28:35 <ehird> it's the only accent english as
19:28:36 <ais523> AnMaster: in theory, you can use a diaresis (looks the same as an umlaut) to separate two syllables in English
19:28:45 <ais523> but nobody's used it for years
19:28:51 <ais523> so it's more or less died out from the language
19:28:56 <ais523> you can see it in old books, sometimes
19:29:02 <Deewiant> I use it in stuff I don't intend others to read
19:29:10 <ais523> and in a few names, like Zoë
19:29:20 <ehird> is Zoë an english name?
19:29:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: I meant with.
19:29:51 <ehird> Also, not an umlaut.
19:30:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: I meant _with_.
19:30:28 <GregorR-L> And I'm saying it is, but only without :P
19:30:39 <ehird> ais523: defend yourself!
19:30:43 <pikhq> You mean most people don't think of the diaeresis?
19:30:56 <ehird> pikhq: most people don't even know it's valid in English...
19:30:57 <GregorR-L> I've seen the name, but only without.
19:31:04 <oerjan> poor Zoë and her diarrhea
19:31:09 <ehird> ais523: that Zoë is a valid english name, not just Zoe. GregorR-L seems to think not.
19:31:14 <ais523> GregorR-L: that's because most English people never bother to learn how to type it
19:31:18 <pikhq> I suppose next you'll tell me that people don't think of "print'ed" making the e pronounced.
19:31:24 <GregorR-L> There's no such thing as an "invalid" name.
19:31:38 <ais523> GregorR-L: some countries have lists of legal names to give children
19:31:46 <ais523> although the UK doesn't, nor does the US as far as I know
19:31:53 * pikhq uses psuedo-dead keys instead of proper compose keys
19:31:56 <ehird> "He has proposed that a one-way trip to Mars could be a viable option."
19:31:58 <GregorR-L> Of course the US doesn't, otherwise nobody would be named Shaniqua
19:32:09 <pikhq> ais523: This is the land of people named "Gonnorhea".
19:32:15 <oerjan> norway used to have such a list, but i think it was abolished
19:32:30 <pikhq> There is neither a list of valid names *nor* any sense in choosing names.
19:32:38 <GregorR-L> However, I'd bet that far, far more people are named Zoe, as the parents don't know how to write a diacritical mark any more than anyone else :P
19:32:50 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure that there is nothing requiring your name to even use English phonemes.
19:33:05 <ais523> also, nowadays there's a big advantage to pure-ASCII names
19:33:10 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Tell that to the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince.
19:33:16 <oerjan> it's probably still illegal to give a child a name that "can be a burden to them", though
19:33:22 <AnMaster> Sweden used to have such a list at least. Not sure if it still does.
19:33:25 <ais523> which is that many websites you might have to use don't know how to handle encodings properly
19:33:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Unicode should have the Prince symbol
19:33:38 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I suspect it has to be representable in Latin.
19:33:43 <ehird> after all, it DOES have a valid use: entering albums under that name into a music player
19:33:51 <pikhq> Erm. The Latin alphabet...
19:33:57 <pikhq> Including diaretics.
19:34:01 <ais523> actually, even on paper forms, sticking to ASCII is helpful because the values are likely to be written into computers eventually, by people who don't know what they're doing
19:34:21 <AnMaster> ais523, if Zoë is valid... is that same as Zo-e ??
19:34:28 <ais523> AnMaster: pronunciation-wise, yes
19:34:53 <ais523> GregorR-L: Zoee would probably be the nearest representation without the accent
19:35:02 <ais523> but people just memorise how words are meant to be pronounced
19:35:07 <oerjan> avoid dianetics in your latin alphabet
19:35:08 <ais523> AnMaster: invalid, C isn't a vowel
19:35:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ASCII representation of the Artist's symbol: O(+>
19:35:16 <GregorR-L> Except that Zoe is pronounced like Zo :P
19:35:16 <oerjan> (says someone anonymous)
19:35:39 <ais523> AnMaster: although hyphens are sometimes used to replace diaereses, not all hyphens are used for that purpose
19:35:41 <ehird> more words need to have a place to use a ¨ in, in English
19:35:58 <ais523> GregorR-L: yes, people memorise the correct pronounciations of words, nowadays, rather than memorising the correct spelling
19:36:01 <pikhq> Why the *hell* do the umlauts show up when GregorR-L types it, but not for someone else typing it?
19:36:07 <GregorR-L> ais523: That's because this is English :P
19:36:10 <pikhq> Someone else familiar with urxvt care to enlighten?
19:36:10 <ehird> I AM GOING TO REBOOT AND REINSTALL ARCH ! !!!!
19:36:27 <ais523> pikhq: I wonder if GregorR-L is using Latin-1?
19:36:39 <AnMaster> and my client does auto detection
19:36:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nominally.
19:36:42 <GregorR-L> Mine may be Latin-1, I haven't configured it on this laptop.
19:36:48 <ais523> This line is written in Latin-1: premptive
19:36:56 <AnMaster> ais523, how did you pull that off
19:37:03 <ais523> This line is written in UTF-8: preëmptive
19:37:09 <ais523> AnMaster: I have an encoding setting in my IRC client
19:37:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:37:11 <pikhq> So why the crap does rxvt-unicode only handle Latin-1?
19:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, my client converts input too
19:37:19 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, switching it, right
19:37:31 <ais523> I /typed/ both in Unicode, but one of them I told my client to send in Latin-1 in
19:37:33 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:38:00 <pikhq> ... Why the crap is LC_ALL=C?
19:38:25 <GregorR-L> Because if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for pikhq?
19:38:29 <pikhq> I've made a point of making this en_US.UTF-8.
19:39:13 <GregorR-L> Apparently there's a genus of amoeba that can be as large as 5mm long.
19:39:36 <GregorR-L> I wonder if an amoeba farmer could use artificial selection to get amoeba that are 1cm long :P
19:39:49 <pikhq> ... And inexplicably, my system doesn't have the en_US.UTF-8 locale.
19:41:49 <pikhq> Now, any idea where to go for a system-wide locale setting in Gentoo?
19:42:49 <ehird> the iso downloaded md5 != the right one
19:42:52 <ehird> kekkekekkekekekekekeke
19:43:05 <ehird> how big are amoebas anyway
19:43:55 <ehird> i wanta pet amoeba
19:44:01 <pikhq> Deewiant: Lemme guess: not obvious.
19:44:09 <Deewiant> I think the biggest is 1 mm or so
19:44:18 <ehird> 18:39 GregorR-L: Apparently there's a genus of amoeba that can be as large as 5mm long.
19:44:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: The 'something' bit? Not necessarily, I can't remember
19:44:52 <ehird> pikhq: /etc/profile?
19:44:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, there? What are the members "value" and "target" for the Cond class in Esotope-BFC?
19:45:07 <Deewiant> pikhq: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/guide-localization.xml sez /etc/env.d/02locale
19:45:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Now, any idea where to go for a system-wide locale setting in Gentoo?
19:45:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, well.. what about the /etc/locale.gen thing
19:45:37 <GregorR-L> Most amoeba are microscopic, in the 10-20um size
19:45:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, to make sure the locales are generated at all
19:45:48 <GregorR-L> But Chaos (an awesome name for a genus) are as big as 5mm.
19:46:04 <ehird> why are gentoo docs .xml? they're html 4.01 transitional
19:46:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: I just checked that to make sure it's set right, and have gone ahead and edited 02locale.
19:46:14 <AnMaster> ehird, they are auto translated on server iirc
19:46:22 <GregorR-L> (And, technically, are amoebazoa, not amoeba, but anyway :P )
19:46:25 <ais523> ehird: is it valid XML as well?
19:46:26 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but the file you get just isn't XML in any form :P
19:46:35 <ais523> it would be very funny if it was valid HTML, and valid XML, but not valid XHTML
19:46:36 <pikhq> ehird: Crappy autogeneration.
19:46:36 <ehird> ais523: it has <br>
19:46:56 <ais523> well, I hope at least that it's valid SGML
19:47:05 <pikhq> Seems to be well-formed XML.
19:47:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you can add ?style=printable
19:47:50 <ehird> plus, the doctype doesn't point to a sgml doctype
19:47:57 <pikhq> I bet the file is stored on the server as XML, then.
19:48:14 <ehird> it points to an sgml doctype
19:48:22 <pikhq> ehird: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd is an SGML doctype.
19:48:27 <ehird> 19:48 ehird: it points to an sgml doctype
19:48:28 <ehird> 19:48 ehird: not an xml one
19:49:55 <GregorR-L> But it also has </br>, making it invalid HTML and XHTML, and valid XML :P
19:50:08 <ehird> 91228e6b71d74e7a52269f1aaf225a6d archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso—mirrorservice.org
19:50:09 <ehird> % md5sum archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso
19:50:10 <ehird> ec8d390ce27fa5bc3125004ba3e7c2f0 archlinux-2009.02-ftp-x86_64.iso
19:50:18 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:50:19 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:50:20 <pikhq> GregorR-L: </br> is valid XHTML in context.
19:50:24 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:50:29 <pikhq> <br></br> is perfectly valid.
19:50:30 <ehird> pikhq: it has content after <br>
19:50:42 <pikhq> Well, it's well-formed XML.
19:50:52 <AnMaster> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xml-guide.xml
19:50:57 <AnMaster> that seems to be what it is about
19:51:45 <pikhq> Actually, it has some <br> tags that it doesn't close.
19:51:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Just use it, who cares about the checksum
19:51:57 <pikhq> So, it's only valid SGML.
19:52:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you being sarcastic? But I did. The crc failed on decompression while booting
19:52:42 <AnMaster> ehird, if that is the minimal one, doesn't it take like 2-3 minutes to download it iirc
19:52:45 <Deewiant> I wasn't; some errors might not matter, and the expected sum could be incorrect :-P
19:52:50 <AnMaster> or maybe that is the gentoo minimal that does
19:53:09 <GregorR-L> ehird's modem is so slow it's described in baud.
19:53:18 <ehird> AnMaster: its 153MB
19:53:21 <ehird> so about 4 minutes
19:53:34 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but I'm on to my third cd
19:53:36 <AnMaster> I remember when I downloaded a 500 MB ISO on 512 kbps!
19:53:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I remember when I downloaded a 30MB file on 56kbps.
19:54:03 <Deewiant> I've downloaded several 600+MB files on 256kbps
19:54:04 <ehird> It took all day. And since it was 56kbps, couldn't load anything else while I waited.
19:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I never did. Since it was pay per time.
19:54:22 <ehird> In those days, if a file was >1MB I canceled it immediately.
19:54:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you could load other stuff, it would just be very slow
19:54:27 <GregorR-L> I remember when I downloaded a 3TB file on a 2880 baud modem!
19:54:27 <ehird> I just couldn't download it fast enough.
19:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Too slow for usabiilty.
19:54:53 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Shaddup.
19:54:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: I remember downloading every internet of every infinite planet via TCP/IP over carrier pigeon over space rocket.
19:55:06 <pikhq> You know as well as I do that that was 3TBs of 0s, and it was RLE'd.
19:55:06 <ehird> IT TOOK INFINITY TO THE POWER OF INFINITY YEARS
19:55:29 <ehird> another mirror works
19:55:40 <AnMaster> ehird, report the broken mirror?
19:55:42 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Also... Have you though of making a Javascript LLVM backend?
19:55:51 <ehird> AnMaster: It's mirrorservice.org, quite a big thing
19:55:54 <ehird> Maybe they'll notice themselves.
19:56:03 <ehird> Not as fun as emulating CPUs.
19:56:12 <ehird> AnMaster: So everyone will have to use another mirror
19:56:17 <ehird> It'll fix next release, I assume
19:56:17 <Deewiant> I think the biggest file I downloaded on 56kbps was around 60-70 MB
19:56:18 <pikhq> Technically, he could just make LLVM target MIPS and do that.
19:56:44 <GregorR-L> It would presumably be more efficient to compile directly.
19:56:55 <GregorR-L> And my MIPS-JS AOT compiler is stalled :P
19:57:14 <AnMaster> whatever was the size of netscape 3 was the largest file I downloaded on 28.8k
19:58:05 <ehird> http://www.theweek.com/article/index/96719/Dick_Cheney_2012 ← No. NO. NO, NO AND MORE FUCKING NOS FOREVER UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF THE INFINITE SUPPLY OF NOS. AND THEN AGAIN! AND THEN, FINALLY, ONE MORE NO!
19:59:14 <GregorR-L> Don't worry, Cheney'll be dead by then :P
19:59:52 <ehird> Wow, my drive is whirring.
19:59:55 <ehird> WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
20:00:31 <ehird> MOTOR-FUCKING-CYCLE TIME, WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I'M GOING TO ARCH UP THE POODLES
20:00:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
20:00:48 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend0 +*9999
20:00:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend0: -10 (maximum 10)
20:02:18 <ais523> wow, according to report.txt, defend0 drew with every single program in there at the moment
20:02:22 <ais523> which is slightly surprising
20:02:27 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Something else nice would be being able to compile Java to LLVM and then run Java in a browser via Javascript.
20:02:29 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Probably less than 10 MB <-- took all day
20:02:34 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend0_1 .+*9999
20:02:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend0_1: -11 (maximum 11)
20:03:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Googling suggests it's between 3 and 6 MB depending on the precise version
20:03:30 <ais523> another drew-with-everything
20:03:39 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:03:44 <ais523> every program's ending with an error
20:03:47 <ehird_> good MORNING america I'm feeling FABULOUS
20:03:50 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend0 (+)*9999
20:03:59 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend1 .(+)*9999
20:04:07 <ehird_> because AMERICA, AMERICA!3487 only the thing
20:04:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend0: -5 (maximum 11)
20:04:20 <ehird_> you, see, you see, you not see? okay.
20:04:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend1: -6 (maximum 12)
20:04:45 <ehird_> And so, the sage said: ,,Perl!''
20:05:01 <ais523> ehird_: you're not making a whole lot of sense
20:05:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, might have been 68k running in some sort of backward compat mode, not sure if those old macs had that
20:05:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think I downloaded Netscape 4.something too on that... Again for Mac, PPC.
20:05:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, switched to 56k soon after that
20:05:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: what were you using before 56k
20:06:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Netscape 4 is already 10 MB and up.
20:06:44 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend0_1 .(+)*9999
20:06:46 <pikhq> I believe that a good Morse keyer would have similar speed.
20:06:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend0_1: -6 (maximum 12)
20:06:57 <ehird_> yeah pikhq it was powered by a morse keyerer
20:07:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait. this is going in the wrong direction...
20:07:25 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend1 [>+[]<(.)*258(+)*127]
20:07:27 <ehird_> Deewiant: 9 is based on mozilla isn't it? 6MB for a mozilla browser? how novel
20:07:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Netscape 4 was quite crap, you know :-P
20:07:53 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: i put the side on this case and the gpu temp went up to like 75
20:07:56 <pikhq> ehird_: Netscape since 4.0 was rebranded Mozilla.
20:08:03 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood: that's fine
20:08:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend1: -6 (maximum 12)
20:08:11 <ehird_> GPUs run up to like 85C
20:08:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, all netscape after 3 was
20:08:23 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood: or was this at idle?
20:08:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 4.5 for PPC is 13.6 MB
20:08:29 <pikhq> 9 was based on Firefox, 6, 7, and 8 were based on the suite.
20:08:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: 4, you mean. Mozilla got the Netscape 4 source and rewrote the whole thing.
20:09:02 <pikhq> Netscape 6 was Mozilla 1.0.
20:09:05 <ehird_> someone gimme a hostname for this arch installation
20:09:22 <pikhq> ehird_: Roll a dice.
20:09:30 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood - just put a fan on that thing
20:09:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: And you're wrong.
20:09:45 <ehird_> Deewiant - brilliant. crcerror, though, no -
20:09:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: After *4*.
20:10:00 <Deewiant> pikhq: Right you are, that'd explain why it was good.
20:10:04 <AnMaster> Netscape Communicator 4 was bad
20:10:17 <Deewiant> ehird_: Some phrase from the CRC error you got, then
20:10:20 <AnMaster> I'm forced to assume you didn't
20:10:20 <pikhq> The Mozilla project was created when Netscape dumped the Netscape 4.5 source.
20:10:30 <ais523> wohoo, I wrote a program that attack5 doesn't beat
20:10:33 <ehird_> Deewiant - there was none. pikhq - IE5 was betetr than NS4
20:10:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, and they rewrote it
20:10:34 <Deewiant> ehird_: "not-91228e6b71d74e7a52269f1aaf225a6d' also
20:10:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but that doesn't change that Netscape 4 was not based on Mozilla.
20:10:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: Mozilla didn't exist until Netscape 4 was well and done.
20:11:03 <Deewiant> Although I guess that kind of goes against the whole point of hostnames by making it a long & hard to remember number
20:11:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't figure out if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me...
20:11:12 <pikhq> Mozilla was created instead of Netscape 5.
20:11:15 <ehird_> Mozilla was the name of Netscape's open-source-NS4 project, AnMaster.
20:11:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm saying you're being dumb.
20:11:23 <ehird_> No "basing on" - direct descendant.
20:11:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, I know what Mozilla is
20:11:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: And you still said NS4 was based on Mozilla, when it's the other way around.
20:12:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, it was you who talked about Mozilla
20:12:31 <pikhq> I completely misunderstood you when you said "all netscape after 3 was".
20:12:35 <pikhq> Yes, NS4 was crap.
20:12:38 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:12:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, tried NS6 too, was a memory whore, and buggy
20:12:58 <pikhq> NS6 through 9 were taking Mozilla's latest and making it into crap.
20:13:23 <pikhq> That's because NS6 was based on a Mozilla RC or a beta...
20:13:28 <pikhq> 1.0 RC, I think it was?
20:13:43 <AnMaster> iirc I tried NS9 too, never think I used NS8
20:13:45 <pikhq> And nobody in their right minds would use Mozilla 1.0.
20:13:56 <pikhq> NS9 was based on a pre-1.0 Firefox.
20:14:22 <Deewiant> I used Mozilla 1.0 for a brief period.
20:14:51 <Deewiant> I think I was using IE6 when I switched to Phoenix 0.4.
20:15:05 <pikhq> Ah, NS8 was based on pre-1.0 Firefox. NS9 was pre-2.0 Firefox.
20:15:41 <pikhq> Netscape had this odd tendency to use browser versions before the stable release.
20:18:43 <Deewiant> Pre-2.0 was stable, unless you mean it was a 2.0 RC?
20:19:28 <ehird> Deewiant: btw by no - i meant crcerror not crc-error
20:19:31 <ehird> not "not crc-error"
20:19:44 <pikhq> And NS9 didn't last very long.
20:19:56 <ehird> but efi doesn't realise its bootable
20:20:12 <ehird> i installed grub onto the partition i installed arch on to
20:23:10 <AnMaster> ooh I got esotope to traceback
20:23:16 <AnMaster> on one of my test programs for in-betwee
20:23:47 <AnMaster> +>+>+<<[>]>> ,[ >[-]+ [++>--<]< ,] ,[ >[-]++ [++>--<]< ,] ,[ >[-]++ [+++>--<]< ,]
20:24:11 <AnMaster> Traceback (most recent call last):
20:24:11 <AnMaster> File "./esotope-bfc", line 74, in <module>
20:24:13 <Deewiant> "segfault" in a Python context
20:24:22 <AnMaster> TypeError: object of type 'CGenerator' has no len()
20:24:39 <Deewiant> Dynamic typing ruins the day yet again
20:24:39 <AnMaster> too messy and undercommented code to have any idea what caused that
20:25:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, erlang has dynamic typing. But it has a tool to verify static contracts. Optionally.
20:25:23 <AnMaster> and it can also find some of those bugs without static contracts
20:25:27 * ehird installs rEFIt, puts grub on the global mbr, runs rEFIt's gptsync
20:25:33 <AnMaster> dialyzer is the name of the tool
20:25:42 <ehird> ais523: syncs gpt/mbr
20:25:50 <ehird> gpt = GUID partition table
20:26:07 <AnMaster> does something called "successive typing", I have no idea how it works.
20:26:42 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, are you on linux? there may be help if so
20:26:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which disks
20:27:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?").
20:27:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: use the new one?
20:27:15 <AnMaster> search for "Automatic Acoustic Management"
20:27:39 <AnMaster> wonder why man sometimes add two spaces
20:30:03 <AnMaster> in python, if I do print foo, where foo is a variable. And I get {2} back. What type is that...
20:30:25 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, isn't that { key : value } ?
20:31:24 <AnMaster> that overwides repr stuff yeah
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20:52:08 -!- M0ny has joined.
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21:09:52 <AnMaster> meh, too many abstractions, too little documentation, I can't make any sense out of the code
21:11:22 <pikhq> Too many abstractions? No such thing.
21:11:41 * pikhq abstracts away the computer into a butler.
21:11:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is nothing anywhere indicating what a block of BF code devided by an integer does.
21:12:11 <AnMaster> well one: "# This is a part of Esotope Brainfuck-to-C Compiler."
21:12:37 * pikhq abstracts away AnMaster
21:14:11 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, optimising compiler duh
21:14:40 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, it constant folds the hello world program on the wiki into PUTS("Hello, World!")
21:15:41 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, that program uses loops
21:15:46 <pikhq> Gracenotes, it does similar crazy shit to LostKingdom.
21:16:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, lostkingdom is easy to optimise. Eliminating dead code is the most important bit for LK
21:16:43 <AnMaster> apart from basic sorting and offset and such
21:16:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: It still does some crazy stuff to it.
21:18:38 <bsmntbombdood> heh, AnMaster can't even compile the output of his compiler
21:18:54 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, well nor can I compile the stuff esotope outputs for lostking
21:19:39 <AnMaster> also I already do better than esotope for some stuff
21:21:22 <AnMaster> from esotope: p[8] += 3; PUTC(p[8]); p[8] -= 7; PUTC(p[8]); I output that like p[8]-=4; oc(p[8]+7) oc(p[8]);
21:21:38 <AnMaster> for lostking this allows quite a bit of folding adds
21:21:50 <AnMaster> even sometimes leading to being able to figure out the constant value for it
21:25:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:26:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can either of these compilers optimize multiplication algorithms to direct multiplications
21:27:10 <Deewiant> Or similar; other primitives than +-
21:27:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mine can't currently, but I'm working on doing that right atm!
21:27:19 <AnMaster> if you mean like that in bf text gen
21:27:31 <EgoBot> 102 ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>.---.+++++++..+++.<.>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>++. [287]
21:27:39 <AnMaster> [>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-] <-- if you mean like that
21:27:46 <Deewiant> I can't read brainfuck at all :-P
21:27:56 <Deewiant> But if that does a multiplication, then yes ;-)
21:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what algos did you mean
21:28:23 <Deewiant> Whatever is used to do multiplication in brainfuck; if that's it, then that
21:28:56 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's just a few constants.
21:29:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, ,[>++<-] multiplies by two
21:29:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, yes.
21:29:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, the fact that it multiplies by a constant is, overall, irrelevant!
21:30:11 <AnMaster> it just means it can constant fold the multiplication later
21:30:41 <Deewiant> ,[>++<-]. should become putc(getchar() << 1)
21:30:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:30:56 <AnMaster> or earlier, since previous passes will already have transformed the loop in ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++++++>+><<<<-] to a "repeat 8 times"
21:31:10 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
21:34:44 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:34:58 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
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21:36:32 <comex> I want to "partially emulate" a binary
21:36:53 <comex> run some parts of the code in emulation, but others on the actual cpu
21:37:04 <ais523> IIRC qemu does something like that
21:37:14 <comex> I tried using softx86 but it appears to suck
21:37:36 <pikhq> Deewiant: DOSemu only emulates peripherals.
21:38:00 <pikhq> On x86_32, it executes the DOS code using virtual x86 mode.
21:38:15 <comex> well, I just want it to use real (user mode) memory and stuff
21:38:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
21:39:05 <comex> pikhq: how do I use qemu to run parts of the code on the actual cpu
21:39:31 <ais523> don't you need kqemu installed for that?
21:39:42 <ais523> but if you have it installed, and run qemu as root, it does automatically
21:39:44 <pikhq> ais523: kqemu lets you run kernel mode code on the actual CPU.
21:39:44 <comex> does that work for user-mod eemulation?
21:40:07 <ais523> I don't know, I'd imagine that would either work even without kqemu, or fail in both cases
21:40:17 <pikhq> Without kqemu, it only can run user-space code.
21:40:20 <AnMaster> ** exception error: no function clause matching io_lib:string_char(latin1,356,34,"!\"")
21:40:28 * AnMaster tries to figure out what on earth that means
21:41:08 <pikhq> That's, and dynamic recompiling, is why qemu is faster than Bochs. ;)
21:41:19 <comex> too bad I get errors like
21:41:21 <comex> qemu: Unsupported syscall: 240
21:41:23 <comex> and skype doesn't run
21:41:33 <comex> (probably because it's doing something weird on purpose, but nevertheless)
21:42:04 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, it is a class of exception in erlang
21:42:38 <comex> but I don't even want it to emulate system calls
21:42:43 <comex> just pass through for 99% of code
21:42:56 <pikhq> It's supposed to pass through the system calls.
21:43:07 <comex> the plan was to mprotect the 1% of code, then use a SIGSEGV handler to emulate it
21:44:54 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, there are three classes: 'error' (run-time errors, like division by zero, bad match and similar), 'exit' (when a process calls exit(Term)), 'throw' from when you just do throw(Term)
21:45:09 <AnMaster> I'm not sure why the difference between the last two is useful
21:46:31 <comex> but yeah, softx86 doesn't seem to do protected mode
21:59:09 <AnMaster> ah found it, there are reasons for the difference, related to linked processes in erlang, and supervising processes.
21:59:42 <AnMaster> too related to the details of Erlang and OTP to explain to a non-erlang programmer
22:08:31 <ehird> 12:27:33 <AnMaster> space messed up by man there
22:08:31 <ehird> 12:27:39 <AnMaster> wonder why man sometimes add two spaces
22:08:58 <AnMaster> a bit silly to do justified margins with a mono-space terminal
22:09:04 <AnMaster> but meh, can't have everything
22:09:22 <AnMaster> hm... idea: mixed formatting terminal
22:09:28 <AnMaster> like a normal terminal most of the time
22:09:49 <AnMaster> but with control codes that can change it to use different fonts in a section and such
22:10:27 <ehird> you could emulate a fb in x
22:10:46 <AnMaster> ehird, and usually if you exit the app that uses the framebuffer all the stuff from it is gone from scrollback
22:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, which wouldn't happen with my idea
22:11:09 <AnMaster> rather you could scroll back to that
22:11:26 <ehird> AnMaster: plan9 graphics system
22:12:14 <ehird> [[‘We did not know that child abuse was a crime,’ says retired Catholic archbishop. ]]
22:12:44 <ehird> AnMaster: [[We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature. ]]
22:12:49 <ehird> is the actual quote
22:13:02 <ehird> http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/21/‘we-did-not-know-that-child-abuse-was-a-crime’-says-retired-catholic-archbishop/
22:13:35 <ehird> Bit detached from reality ther
22:14:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh you mean somewhat
22:14:19 <ehird> IT'S NOT TWO WORDS <__<
22:14:32 <Deewiant> ehird: "What" isn't "wut" either
22:14:45 <Deewiant> I was using the space as emphasis, actually
22:14:56 <ehird> As the flipside of that, here is the title of the post right below it:
22:14:57 <ehird> [[My school blocks www.atheist.net and categorizes it as adult language, is this a suppression of alternate beliefs?]]
22:14:58 <Deewiant> Like a pause between "some" and "what"
22:15:03 <ehird> THEY ARE TRYING TO SUPPRESS YOU
22:15:08 <ehird> IT IS NOT AN ERROR IN THE CONTENT FILTER AT ALL
22:15:20 <ehird> REBEL! REBEL! FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER LOLOLOLOLOL
22:22:58 <ehird> now remove the tape accesses
22:23:17 -!- nooga has joined.
22:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, need to fix "crash due to outputting a char with the value of 823" first.
22:23:45 <AnMaster> which is [ X rem 256 || X <- Str ]
22:24:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes DCE from end is planned. Part of the code needed for it is already in place.
22:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are you on Arch or OS X now?
22:25:11 <ehird> AnMaster: os x, arch only booted via the grub console on the livecd and x didn't work first time
22:25:16 <nooga> GG (polish IM) servers are dead
22:25:19 <ehird> then I spilled some coke and decided to give up
22:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you aren't persistent enough IMP
22:25:35 <ehird> nooga: Gadu-Gadu's dead?
22:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: i spent a good while on it fyi
22:25:53 <comex> anmaster: what language is that
22:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, only because of wrong cd
22:25:57 <nooga> everything, all servers are down
22:26:07 <ehird> nooga: shut down or just glitch
22:26:57 <nooga> nope, since 20:00 all of 40 servers are dead
22:27:04 <ehird> shut down or just glitch
22:27:15 <AnMaster> thing with erlang and bf compiling: Erlang only have bignums. Thus you need to manually correct values to be in range
22:27:22 <nooga> http://gg.thinkspire.org/
22:27:29 <ehird> AnMaster: *waves Haskell and its Int8 type in your face*
22:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah sure, I'm not saying other languages doesn't have it
22:28:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and if I wanted to be sadistic I could do all my calculations inside 8 bit binaries
22:28:58 <ehird> masochistic you mean
22:29:36 <AnMaster> it would look like: <<RealValue:8/integer-native-unsigned>> = <<(FirstValue + Second Value):8/integer-native>>
22:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, and why do you think I treat - as "add 255" not "substract 1"
22:30:25 <ehird> AnMaster: add -1, foo
22:30:44 <AnMaster> ehird, when I see a - in the input I make a node {add, 255}
22:31:03 <AnMaster> ehird, simplifies calculations
22:31:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: *waves Haskell and its Int8 type in your face* <-- shouldn't that be UInt8?
22:31:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not mathematical!
22:32:05 <AnMaster> ehird, but how do I decide if I want signed or unsigned
22:32:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: you mean Word8
22:32:35 <AnMaster> well, BF uses unsigned 8 bit cells
22:33:14 <oerjan> also, signed or unsigned is completely equivalent for wrapping BF
22:33:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: BF cannot distinguish whether it is using signed or unsigned
22:34:09 <oerjan> all it cares about is how many incs/decs until you return to 0
22:34:10 <ehird> AnMaster: -128 to 127
22:34:18 <ais523> ooh, interesting: IRC is officially assigned TCP port 194
22:34:24 <ais523> even though everyone runs it on 6667 anyway
22:34:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's just a matter of conversion to characters
22:34:39 <ais523> as in, it isn't news at all
22:34:44 <ais523> but I only just discovered it
22:34:47 <ehird> ais523: i doubt anyone else knew
22:34:54 <ehird> i didn't, for instance
22:34:56 <ehird> so it's news to me
22:35:16 <ais523> it's not like now is a particularly appropriate moment to announce that IRC is on port 194
22:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: that's nice.
22:35:27 <ais523> which is why I'm not treating it as news
22:35:36 <AnMaster> I know various ircd developers who know
22:36:02 <AnMaster> I also know some ircd developers who _didn't_ know, which worries me more
22:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you should know the protocol you are working with
22:36:22 <ehird> why is knowing that the useless tcp assignment for irc is 194 helpful to implementing the IRC protocol
22:36:26 <ehird> apart from elitism?
22:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not the protocol
22:36:35 <ehird> the protocol is described in its entirety by a few RFCs
22:36:39 <ehird> its port assignment is irrelevant
22:36:52 <ehird> the only argument for "ircd developers must know it" is elitism
22:36:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't. Nobody fully follows the RFCs
22:37:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:37:06 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what
22:37:08 <AnMaster> a lot of stuff aren't documented in the RFCs, but is used by everyone
22:37:10 <ehird> AnMaster: NOBODY USES THAT PORT
22:37:18 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, I seen it used
22:37:21 <ehird> *snap! logical snare set by yourself*
22:37:26 <ehird> AnMaster: and I'm sure there are pure-IRC servers too
22:37:38 <ehird> but port 194 is irrelevant as implementing purely what the RFC says.
22:37:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:37:45 <nooga> oerjan: explain please -> http://www.insults.net/html/swear/norwegian.html
22:37:45 <AnMaster> and even them aren't 100% pure
22:38:40 <AnMaster> nooga, there are translations...
22:39:14 <nooga> but why "penisfuteral" :C
22:39:15 * oerjan didn't know about "fleskepanne"
22:39:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
22:40:11 <nooga> what's the difference between: snurebass and snabel?
22:40:11 <oerjan> nooga: i'm not sure all of those are quite often used
22:40:30 <AnMaster> the search is broken on that site
22:40:31 <oerjan> nooga: they're both just amusing words
22:41:40 <oerjan> the first really means "spinning top" (as in toy), the second means "trunk" (as in elephant)
22:42:32 <AnMaster> the latter word is the same in Swedish. But I never heard it as a alias for that thing
22:42:44 <AnMaster> as in snabel == Elephant trunk
22:43:19 <ehird> dra meg hardt i rompehara /
22:43:19 <ehird> knull meg hardt og fort - fuck me hard and fast
22:43:20 <ehird> ↑ this is also the norweigan mating ritual
22:43:33 <ehird> runknisse = wanking gnome
22:43:47 <oerjan> "dra meg baklengs inn i fuglekassa" is afaik by a bird character from a norwegian puppet movie
22:43:51 <ehird> mus = mouse (i.e. vagina)
22:43:51 <ehird> mouse, vagina, what's the difference
22:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, the difference between a rat and a cat
22:44:40 <oerjan> "dra meg hardt i rompehåra" actually means "pull my ass hairs hard"
22:44:50 <ehird> [[Jeg spretta søstra di mens den tilbakestående
22:44:50 <ehird> faren din sto bak og fumlet med ballene mine.
22:44:51 <ehird> = I stretched your sisters ass
22:44:53 <ehird> while your retarded dad stood
22:44:55 <ehird> behind me and fumbled my balls]]
22:49:13 <AnMaster> os("\nBrainfuck Edition v0.11\n\nTo read the back-story enter '!'.\nFor a list of commands enter '?'.\n");
22:49:26 <ehird> AnMaster: not exactly hard on generated code is it
22:50:00 <AnMaster> ehird, It constant folded quite a few strings in lostking, not all yet
22:50:07 <AnMaster> since I can't handle all polynoms
22:50:13 <AnMaster> ehird, and that one was lostking
22:50:19 <pikhq> ehird: Except that there's only so many ways for *most* people to do stuff in Brainfuck. ;)
22:50:29 <ehird> but lostkng is not realistic
22:50:57 <AnMaster> ehird, doing partial loop unrolling halved the output size btw
22:51:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Would you like the PEBBLE and PFUCK source to test with, as well?
22:51:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:52:04 <AnMaster> and I can't yet unroll if the constant is unknown, since I haven't yet coded a generic polynom node. This is for the simpler ones.
22:52:14 <AnMaster> the more complex ones I'll work on tomorrow
22:52:36 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:55:18 <nooga> anybody tried to do genetic programming in bf? ;o
22:55:45 <EgoBot> 49 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>. [60]
22:56:13 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:57:45 <AnMaster> also I have plans to in the future read everything into a graph of some kind. And then prune unreferenced nodes. It seems like an interesting way to handle constant propagation
22:57:53 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
22:58:00 <AnMaster> the source for that one is in there somewhere
22:58:18 <AnMaster> nooga, however it is coded in java, to generate the bf
22:58:27 <AnMaster> not sure if that is what you meant
22:59:42 <nooga> but still, some optimizer should be applied and clean up things like >><<<< to <<
23:00:25 <oerjan> nooga: oh that point is part of a fixed template
23:00:39 <oerjan> it always uses 4 cells in that loop
23:00:54 <nooga> bud doing >><< is for nothing
23:01:20 <oerjan> nooga: it will be used for any complicated text
23:01:35 <oerjan> it's just because foo is so short
23:02:06 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [350]
23:02:09 <oerjan> also, EgoBot doesn't run the genetic algorithm very long, so it's not optimal even for that
23:02:25 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [317]
23:02:39 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [706]
23:02:58 <oerjan> it seems to be deterministic...
23:03:08 <nooga> !bf_textgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs
23:03:20 <nooga> !bf_txtgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs
23:03:23 <EgoBot> 183 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>>.>++.<<<----.----.>----.>>.<<-.>+++.<++.<++++++.>--.>>.<+++.<-.>>.<<----------.---.-.<.>+.<+.>>.<++.>++++.>----------------------. [515]
23:03:25 <oerjan> i think it has that cached as a special case :D
23:03:38 <oerjan> or maybe it's because of length
23:04:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: i didn't notice nooga misspelled the command
23:04:05 <nooga> yea, i though that it's running so long
23:04:29 <oerjan> the old EgoBot used to run it much slower
23:04:57 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen i eat slugs or hedgehogs
23:05:00 <EgoBot> 185 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++>+++++++<<<<-]>.>>++.<<----.----.>----.>.<-.>>+++.<<++.<++++++.>--.>.>+++.+++.<.<-----------.---.-.+++.--.<+.+++++++.>++.>>+.<----------------------. [579]
23:05:11 <oerjan> ah not identical this time
23:05:16 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
23:05:19 <EgoBot> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [560]
23:05:46 <oerjan> but always the same on that one
23:06:26 <oerjan> i think the number after is number of generations or something
23:07:25 <oerjan> so strangely it reached the same code for Hello, World! 4 times, but after different numbers of generations
23:07:48 <oerjan> perhaps that really is optimal for that method
23:08:08 <nooga> !bf_txtgen iiiiiiii
23:08:11 <EgoBot> 47 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+........>++. [513]
23:08:34 <oerjan> i think it includes the newline
23:08:42 <oerjan> new EgoBot tends to do that
23:10:27 <fizzie> That particular 126-character version seems to be the one it ends up with a very high probability.
23:10:36 <fizzie> Though sometimes rather slowly.
23:10:36 <ais523> maybe it should use annealing, or something?
23:10:38 <fizzie> 126 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [5700]
23:10:49 <nooga> +++[>+<-----]>++........
23:13:00 <oerjan> !bf +++[>+<-----]>++........
23:14:01 <nooga> and who's awesome?
23:15:27 <nooga> we need better string generator
23:15:57 <ais523> nooga: are you messing around with wraparound there?
23:16:36 <oerjan> !bf ++[>-<+++++++]>+.----.
23:17:28 <nooga> aww my shrips have rotten
23:18:01 <fizzie> "shrip is an application for ripping and encoding DVDs into AVI, OGM, MKV, or MP4 files."
23:18:18 <oerjan> nooga: you rotten pirate you
23:18:19 <fizzie> It might've been about ripped DVDs and bitrot.
23:18:35 <AnMaster> ib_block_info.erl:335: The pattern 'false' can never match the type 'unknown' | {'false',pos_integer()} <-- I think dialyzer went insane. As far as I can see the type is wrong.... And isn't listed anywhere
23:18:36 <nooga> now ÿ is the smiley
23:18:57 <ehird> combining diaeresis v
23:19:47 <ehird> AnMaster: [combining diaeresis] [v]
23:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, all I saw was a plain v
23:20:14 <ehird> AnMaster: that's all i typed
23:20:24 <ehird> i can't type a combining diaeresis
23:20:27 <ehird> so i provided a recipe
23:20:27 <AnMaster> thought you mean it was there on the line
23:20:34 <nooga> ehird: combining diaeresis v
23:20:49 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I tried that here, didn't work
23:20:59 <AnMaster> my such key only works for a few...
23:21:11 <ehird> AnMaster: its not combining
23:21:18 <ehird> if you type ë it gives the one character
23:21:29 <ehird> those are single chars
23:21:32 <ehird> instead of [combiner][char]
23:21:41 <fizzie> You put the Unicode combining characters after the to-be-combined thing, though.
23:22:05 <fizzie> v̈ should work if you renderize it right.
23:22:24 <nooga> how to type the thing
23:22:38 <ehird> v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈v̈
23:22:51 <ehird> fizzie: is there a ) on side character?
23:23:32 <nooga> http://img.moronail.net/img/0/3/903.jpg
23:25:10 <fizzie> You mean ") rotated 90 degrees", not "combining ) that's on one side of the target"?
23:25:36 <fizzie> Something like in a͡a?
23:25:52 <ehird> fizzie: that's a (
23:26:06 <fizzie> Depends on which way you rotate it. But there's the other too.
23:26:17 <ehird> fizzie: that, but lower, with a ¨ on top
23:26:49 <fizzie> Oh, right, you don't need a combining thing. Well, that's easier.
23:28:27 <fizzie> I'm not sure which block it would be in... there's a very low thing, but it's also a bit wide, I'm not sure where the diaeresis would render. ∼̈
23:29:41 <ehird> fizzie: the umlaut gives a ridge to the ) which is up at the top
23:29:45 <nooga> how do you type it?
23:30:26 <ehird> "SeekFind.org is a unique “Christian-content-only” search engine. The major search engines such as Google, Yahoo, MSN, and Ask often produce quality results for searches related to Christian terms. However, mixed in with these search results will be results from pages attacking the Christian faith and/or presenting unbiblical views. For example, a search for “Jesus Christ” at Google will result in page 1 listings from the Mormon church, a genealo
23:30:28 <ehird> gical service, and a secular history of views about Jesus. "
23:30:30 <fizzie> Well, there's a boring old bottom parenthesis, ⏝. But that's pretty low.
23:30:37 <ehird> fizzie: no, that's perfect
23:30:45 <ais523> it isn't in my font...
23:31:11 <fizzie> Hmm, I don't remember where I got the bottom parenthesis from. ⍨
23:31:23 <fizzie> (That last one is "APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL TILDE DIAERESIS = smirk"
23:32:12 <fizzie> It's a bit sideways in my font, but...
23:32:22 <ehird> fizzie: http://imgur.com/f0gbm.png
23:32:52 <nooga> http://img.moronail.net/img/3/2/1232.jpg
23:32:57 <fizzie> Right, it's not very centered. Well, maybe it's a style issue.
23:33:13 <ehird> fizzie: it looks nicer like that
23:33:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:33:52 <fizzie> You can do the same with the "lower half circle" too, though not sure how that'd look like. ◡̈
23:34:00 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attackslow [>[-]-[+]+]
23:34:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attackslow: -1 (maximum 13)
23:34:54 <ehird> fizzie: http://imgur.com/4f04t.png
23:35:01 <fizzie> The small ⌣ is "U+2323 SMILE" from the "miscellaneous technical" set, one would think that's a very smileable character.
23:35:55 -!- coppro has joined.
23:36:50 <fizzie> I wonder who's been thinking up those also-known-as aliases for the APL symbol set. ⍤ is known as "hoot", ⍥ as "holler".
23:36:54 <ais523> hmm... EgoBot seems to be counting draws as losses, then halving the result
23:37:12 <ehird> coppro: 23:35 fizzie: ⌤ looks very unhappy.
23:37:40 <ais523> ehird: that character isn't in this font
23:37:49 <ehird> ais523: your loss!
23:37:56 <ehird> one with more smilies
23:38:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:38:14 <fizzie> It's actually not a smiley; it's the "up arrowhead between two horizontal bars", used to represent the enter key.
23:38:17 <nooga> http://img.moronail.net/img/8/4/1184.jpg AnMaster: is that correct?
23:38:34 <fizzie> It's right next to the option key symbol ⌥, which isn't very facey.
23:38:47 <ehird> nooga: I'm sure AnMaster has no idea what you're talking about.
23:39:01 <ehird> fizzie: right, I had that on my old apple keyboard
23:39:04 <ehird> more legible though
23:39:12 <AnMaster> nooga, it isn't what you usually see. But I guess it happened at least once.
23:39:38 <nooga> i've been to sweden and i can tell there are MANY of nice females there
23:39:41 <AnMaster> one of them has an url on the back of the clothes it seems
23:39:52 <ehird> 23:39 AnMaster: one of them has an url on the back of the clothes it seems ← this is so AnMaster
23:39:53 <AnMaster> but if you could it might help trace it
23:39:54 <ehird> so, so very AnMaster
23:40:11 <ehird> actually it's so AnMaster it wrapped around, stopped being AnMaster, but then went a whole lot further and became very very AnMaster again
23:40:12 <nooga> http://img.moronail.net/img/7/5/1175.jpg
23:40:14 <AnMaster> ehird, the one with the dark skin
23:40:23 <ehird> nooga: i see you have discovered a new domain name.
23:40:27 <ehird> unfortunately, nobody else cares.
23:40:46 <nooga> i'm not that naive :P
23:40:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you also know: the flying spaghetti monster doesn't really exist?
23:41:02 <nooga> ehird: i don't care if anyone cares
23:41:09 <ehird> Tune in for more facts, tomorrow.
23:41:09 <ais523> ehird: why should I believe you?
23:41:12 <ehird> Same bat time, same bat channel!
23:41:20 <ehird> ais523: Because, as above, I am batman.
23:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't have enough slack.
23:41:34 <oerjan> ehird: of course it does, the orbital teapot told me so!
23:41:47 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius
23:41:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:45:00 <AnMaster> would using a DAC for representing a stretch of BF code and the dependencies in it be sane?
23:45:27 <ehird> graphs are always right, just ask oklopol
23:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well the question is: What sort of grap
23:45:54 <ehird> the most pure and eso one you can find
23:46:19 <nooga> now i'm SubGenius follower
23:46:39 <oerjan> ehird: oklopol is gravely mistaken. nearly half of all graphs are in fact, left.
23:46:39 <ehird> someone introduce nooga to a less high-brow joke religion to save them
23:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, I want something practical, useful and easy to work with
23:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: then gtfo #esoteric and go to #BORING or something
23:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, if it means I can compile LostKing into a readable C program? ;P
23:48:01 <nooga> what's the LostKink?
23:48:19 <oerjan> i think there must some typo energy here today
23:48:21 <ehird> AnMaster: i think,
23:48:23 <ehird> that he is trying to be funny
23:48:29 <ehird> that is my in-depth analysis
23:48:38 <ehird> nooga: also correct
23:48:42 <ehird> we're on a roll of correctness toda
23:49:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, best graph to represent BF instructions with dependencies and so on
23:49:26 <AnMaster> IO needs to be ordered in this properly somehow
23:50:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: erm you put every instruction as a vertex, and put an edge between if they cannot be swapped
23:50:33 <nooga> yay, gg servers started
23:50:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, for unbalanced ones I think the best you can do is to start building a new such network after the loop
23:51:05 <AnMaster> for balanced ones you SHOULD be able to do something better
23:51:05 <oerjan> might have to treat loops as substructures which are graphs themselves, as well as vertices in the large one
23:52:45 <oerjan> for balanced ones you should at least be able to detect which cells they can touch, and swap the whole loop with things that don't touch that
23:53:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can do that already by tracking a dict of how cells are touched for each loop
23:53:21 <AnMaster> that is how I can figure out if a loop can turn into if and such
23:54:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:54:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, that topological sort page mentioned scheduling as an application, so i am sure there is already research on how to apply this to programming languages
23:54:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes it is what got me thinking...
23:57:04 <oerjan> nooga: so i take it gg wasn't a victim of the economic crisis yet?
23:59:26 <nooga> how come that you know what gg is
23:59:40 <nooga> it's polish only invention ;p
00:00:23 <oerjan> um because you mentioned it earlier today?
00:00:42 <nooga> but ehird expanded it to Gadu-Gadu
00:01:04 <nooga> maybe he googles fast... :p
00:01:20 <ehird> yeras of internet has given me a lot of useless knowledge
00:01:22 <oerjan> ehird is a secret pole
00:01:38 <ehird> oerjan: yes I am the pole of the http://goatonapole.com/
00:01:54 <oerjan> i am not sure if i want to click that link
00:02:08 <ehird> do not worry it is safe for work unless your work is anti-goat-on-a-pole
00:02:50 <nooga> i'd better go back to my work
00:02:59 <AnMaster> of course, I still have useless array and such
00:03:11 <AnMaster> needs to be handled at code generator level
00:09:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:12:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's just a goat on a fucking pole
00:12:53 <ehird> what's wrong with that?
00:13:19 <ehird> oerjan: do you have a problem with goats/fuckingpoles?
00:13:38 <oerjan> i am one with the goats on the fucking poles
00:14:05 <ehird> we are very, very serious about it
00:14:16 <ehird> we might even be very, very, very, very serious about it
00:14:40 <oerjan> so it's not just goatonapologetics?
00:15:10 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jesuschex/Goat_on_a_pole <-- citations needed and so on, but still interesting
00:15:17 <AnMaster> "established December 12th, 2005 on the Simon's Rock College of Bard campus"
00:15:34 <ehird> AnMaster: please stop thinking and accept the reality of the goat on a pole
00:15:36 <nooga> HATE HATE HATE HATE
00:15:48 <ehird> nooga: port install unrar
00:15:50 <oerjan> nooga: you trying to channel James Joyce?
00:16:01 <ehird> AnMaster: AUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
00:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you know that it is often typoed as OMMMM? So NAUMMMMM must be NOM NOM
00:16:27 <ehird> oerjan: absolutely not
00:16:45 <ehird> he's just riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
00:17:10 <oerjan> three quarks for muster ehird!
00:22:07 <coppro> Does English count as an esoteric language?
00:22:22 <ehird> coppro: english is basically like php.
00:23:01 <nooga> ehird: everybody can code in it more or less and natives produce most ugly code?
00:23:16 <Slereah_> coppro : https://www.osmosian.com/
00:23:36 <ehird> nooga: something like that
00:23:40 <ehird> Slereah_: hehheehehe
00:24:26 <AnMaster> why is there just a broken image on there
00:25:01 <ehird> AnMaster: also you can download it without paying
00:25:05 <ehird> because their code sucks
00:25:09 <ehird> and does it all clientside
00:25:20 <ehird> AnMaster: just read it and suck in the awful
00:25:22 <ehird> yes, they are serious
00:25:23 <Slereah_> I think this is my favorite part : https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
00:25:47 <ehird> Slereah_: i like how they think chomsky has ANYTHING to do with a programming language
00:26:04 <Slereah_> Well, he did grammar types, no?
00:26:16 <AnMaster> I thought at first it was a joke
00:26:20 <ehird> Slereah_: from their example program source:
00:26:21 <ehird> Extract the background given the screen's box. \*dahd or Create the background from the screen. Or something.
00:26:23 <AnMaster> if it was a joke it wouldn't have been too bad
00:26:27 <ehird> i like the comment
00:26:33 <ehird> To draw a string in a box in the center: \ *dahd needed in sausage
00:26:35 <ehird> Needed in sausage?
00:26:52 <Slereah_> They like to pretend that their language is entierly English
00:27:00 <Slereah_> But when you read the self-compiler, it's shit
00:27:05 <Slereah_> Machine code implied everywhere
00:27:44 <Slereah_> See, they have this beef with "abstract" languages
00:28:43 <ehird> Slereah_: where's the hidden download link?
00:30:30 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Compiler_optimizations <-- useful reading
00:30:30 <Slereah_> Can't find it, maybe they removed it to sell it bettar?
00:30:42 <ehird> it wasn't on the actual site
00:31:30 <ehird> Slereah_: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/06-02-126
00:31:37 <ehird> the guy advertises his own thing like he's just a user
00:31:41 <ehird> but slips up by using the same name
00:32:08 <nooga> my sadol compiler does some partial evaluation to boost the speed when various types are used
00:32:31 <nooga> my grandma's surname is Rzeppa
00:33:25 <Slereah_> "Since this is the 21st century, shouldn't we be able to talk to our computers in our own language?"
00:33:53 <nooga> that would be so impractical
00:34:06 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:34:27 <ehird> AnMaster: because english is more verbose and less precise than formal languages.
00:34:52 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it wouldn't be useful for everything, but it could be for some things, With a strong AI.
00:34:56 <nooga> only if the level would be reasonably high, like: do my math homework, here's the data.
00:35:05 <ehird> but it'd have to be a really fucking strong ai
00:35:19 <Slereah_> I guess it could be useful as a teaching tool
00:35:30 <Slereah_> But the osmosian people have way too high expectations
00:35:43 <Slereah_> They want it to replace regular languages
00:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, tea -c 1 -type 'Earl grey' -t 4 minutes
00:36:19 <pikhq> Lojban would be better for communicating with a computer, really.
00:36:42 <ehird> AnMaster: that's nothing like "Let a be x times two divided by 3. Create a new window with title "Hello" and the contents "The result is " followed by a's value, with the single button "OK", which closes the window and goes on to the next step."
00:36:57 <AnMaster> vs, *spoken* "Make me a cup of Earl grey, <whatever the word is for the time in English> 4 minutes"
00:37:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: you forgot the -temp hot
00:37:13 <ehird> let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] }
00:37:19 <ehird> I know which I'd rather type
00:37:20 <pikhq> ... Someone is actually making an "English" programming language?
00:37:29 <ehird> pikhq: that's what we're talking about
00:37:37 <ehird> pikhq: https://www.osmosian.com/page04.png
00:38:06 <ehird> 00:36 ehird: AnMaster: that's nothing like "Let a be x times two divided by 3. Create a new window with title "Hello" and the contents "The result is " followed by a's value, with the single button "OK", which closes the window and goes on to the next step."
00:38:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it wouldn't be good for everything
00:38:08 <ehird> 00:37 ehird: let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] }
00:38:11 <ehird> which would you rather type
00:38:14 <pikhq> ... "What our customers could be saying"?
00:38:16 <ehird> the osmosian guys?
00:38:17 <AnMaster> but it might be useful for a few things
00:38:25 <ehird> As a command interface, AnMaster, sure.
00:38:28 <ehird> But that is NOT WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.
00:38:56 * pikhq screams the screams previously reserved for denizens of hell
00:39:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> 00:37 ehird: let a=x*2/3 in newWindow $ window{ title="Hello", contents="The result is " ++ show a, buttons=[button{ text="OK", action=(closeWindow >> nextStp) }] } <-- what language
00:39:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what windowing API does it use
00:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: ehirdomatic inventomatron invention #34785893457
00:39:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Looks nothing like Tcl.
00:39:48 <ehird> pikhq: it has []s and {}s!112111
00:39:57 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, thought it was real syntax
00:39:59 <nooga> i eat moldy cheese, drink old wine and drive a car without it's roof... the global crisis got me
00:40:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, just nonexistent definitions
00:40:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Imagine Lisp with {} and [] instead of (). That's just about Tcl.
00:40:14 <AnMaster> ehird, like the tk or wxwidgets APIs for erlang
00:40:15 <ehird> nooga: or perhaps your bad decisions got you :)
00:41:21 <nooga> ehird: don't you understand? ;p
00:41:23 <pikhq> ehird: That exampe.
00:41:33 <ehird> nooga: i wasn't really paying attention
00:42:43 <oerjan> i'm not so sure about the car without it's roof though, not in this climate
00:43:03 <oerjan> but then, global warming might take care of that.
00:43:06 <nooga> good moldy cheese (you know, like brie of whatever) and old wine are not cheap... and also this convertible
00:43:11 <ehird> [[The "Cal Monet" draws like a person draws. It "remembers" or "sees" an
00:43:11 <ehird> image, then renders an original "dab, dab, dab" work of art based on
00:43:12 <ehird> the image. How does it "remember" and "see"? By looking in it's memory,
00:43:14 <ehird> which, in this case, is stored on various computers around the world.]]
00:43:16 <ehird> Slereah_: ↑ a post by help@osmosian.com in comp.compilers
00:43:21 <nooga> oerjan: why, it's hot here ;p
00:43:26 <ehird> if i'd paid attention...
00:43:28 * Slereah_ searches his computer for the compiler and manual
00:43:30 <pikhq> [set a [expr $x*2/3]];window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}]
00:43:50 <pikhq> That ought to be the Tcl equivalent if I'm up on my Tk foo.
00:44:11 <pikhq> Hmm. That syntax, though.
00:44:26 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that they borrowed ORK's syntax.
00:44:28 <AnMaster> % [set a [expr $x*2/3]];window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}]
00:44:57 <nooga> never tried tcl, syntax was repulsive for me several years ago
00:44:59 <pikhq> Remove the brackets around that set command.
00:45:14 <AnMaster> % window .h -title Hello;pack [label .h -text "The result is $a"];pack [button .h -text "OK" -action {.h close}]
00:45:23 <pikhq> Okay, so I don't touch Tk.
00:45:35 -!- Dewi has quit (Network is unreachable).
00:45:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe you need to import something first or so
00:47:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you get line editing and tab completion in tclsh
00:48:03 <AnMaster> should also highlight matching [] and such as you type it
00:49:11 <ehird> it's not a repl it's a shell
00:49:41 <AnMaster> almost all shells I can think of do
00:49:52 <Slereah_> The Osmosian compiler and manual
00:50:12 <oerjan> Slereah_: is that the year their language will actually work?
00:50:29 <Slereah_> I like how everything is written in a font that looks like a retarded comic sans MS
00:50:50 <ehird> note: his copy is illegal
00:50:52 <ehird> since he didn't pay :P
00:50:58 <ehird> (used to be viewable by everyone)
00:51:00 <ehird> (due to their idiocy)
00:51:06 <ehird> but I think you can excuse him not paying $100
00:52:01 <ehird> Slereah_: my windowsotron is running
00:52:37 <ehird> Slereah_: i eagerly await your blasphemy
00:53:00 <Slereah_> I would not advise you to use the GUI, it's ugly as sin
00:53:08 <ehird> Slereah_: I've used it before
00:53:10 <ehird> it's wonderfully bad
00:53:14 <ehird> completes the experience
00:53:58 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/cal-3037.rar
00:54:14 <AnMaster> Slereah_, what about a format easier to open
00:54:30 <ehird> AnMaster: it's easy to open on window
00:54:55 <ehird> AnMaster: there's a foss unrar
00:54:56 <AnMaster> wget: unable to resolve host address `membres.lycos.fr'
00:54:56 <Slereah_> I think I have a picture of the GUI somewhere
00:55:52 * ehird uses the ever-shitty IE6 to download winrar
00:56:12 <ehird> AnMaster: but not here.
00:56:32 <Slereah_> Lycos can be hard to open in some places, yeah
00:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, tried resolving from dedi in US. Same result
00:56:49 <ehird> Slereah_: success, 'tis downloaded
00:56:51 <Slereah_> Well, tell me where to upload it and in what format
00:56:53 <ehird> c:\cal3037 here we come
00:56:57 <ehird> Slereah_: filebin.ca
00:57:07 <ehird> since creating tgz is a pain on windows.
00:57:13 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you want it
00:57:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you said self interpreter
00:57:26 <ehird> AnMaster: compiler
00:58:52 * pikhq hates Osmosian already.
00:59:15 <Slereah_> It is in every programmer's heart to hate it
00:59:25 <ehird> Slereah_: gonna start this thing ^___^
00:59:38 <pikhq> It's like someone looked at ORK and thought that was a good idea!
00:59:49 <Slereah_> http://filebin.ca/pjsehz/cal-3037.zip
01:00:02 <pikhq> GregorR-L: And you, if anyone, know that ORK is dumb.
01:00:10 <ehird> Slereah_: It ruuuuuuuuuuuuuns
01:00:12 <pikhq> Hilarious, but dumb for serious programming.
01:00:19 <ehird> AnMaster: all zips are bombs
01:00:27 <ehird> Slereah_: wow their menu is terrible
01:00:34 <ehird> containins items starting with that letter
01:00:37 <ehird> how utterly *USELESS*
01:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: they're doin it rong
01:00:52 <AnMaster> the compiler: ISO-8859 English text, with CRLF line terminators
01:01:00 <ehird> AnMaster: correct.
01:01:02 <ehird> It's plain english!
01:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't double clickable
01:01:19 <pikhq> intel $8B8508000000. \ mov eax,[ebp+8] \ the byte
01:01:20 <ehird> AnMaster: PLAIN ENGLISH
01:01:26 <AnMaster> the desktop: ISO-8859 English text, with CRLF, NEL line terminators
01:01:26 <ehird> pikhq: very plain isn't it
01:01:27 <pikhq> I HATE THIS CODE ALREADY.
01:01:50 <Slereah_> Always a nice surprise on the unsuspecting.
01:02:04 * nooga run out of moldy cheese
01:02:16 <pikhq> ehird: Would it kill them to, y'know, make it portable?
01:02:32 <Slereah_> But that would mean programming in C, pikhq
01:02:42 <ehird> C IS A GRADE AFTER ALL
01:02:50 <Slereah_> Instead, they just sort of... Do machine code in English?
01:03:30 <Slereah_> Another stupid thing is that they don't have file extensions
01:03:39 <Slereah_> All of their files have no extensions
01:03:43 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I mentioned that above
01:03:48 <pikhq> And another stupid thing is that there doesn't seem to be another implementation.
01:04:00 <nooga> this whole osmosian thing is so dumb that even i am sharper
01:04:04 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean how does it work
01:04:13 <AnMaster> ehird, the language... whatever
01:04:28 <Slereah_> Read the documentation, AnMaster, it's hilarious!
01:04:51 <pikhq> ... And is the "instructions" file Postscript?
01:05:13 <pikhq> It makes Comic Sans look good.
01:05:21 * ehird looks at OS X's icon for PC remote computers and giggles again. (old-looking CRT with a bluescreen.)
01:05:25 <Slereah_> Now I know that right about here most programming books would drum up some dippy little "Hello, World" program — and expect you to be impressed — but I'd like to suggest that we skip the kid stuff and start makin' babies.
01:05:25 <Slereah_> I see you're trembling. Don't be afraid. This may be the first time for you, but I'm an old hand at this. I'll lead you through it. Gently.
01:05:36 <ehird> Slereah_: fap fap fap fap fap fap
01:05:52 <pikhq> ... "Plain English".
01:05:55 <Slereah_> Was it as good for you as it was for me? Look how handsome he is! But he is not me — you can prove it with the Version command. And if you look in the new directory on an empty tab, you'll see the executable file we begat.
01:06:08 <Slereah_> That computer touched me in my no no places :(
01:07:03 <ehird> to add two fragments given a string and a variable and a locus:
01:07:03 <ehird> add a fragment given the push address tag and the variable.
01:07:05 <ehird> add a monikette to some monikettes given the string.
01:08:01 <ehird> Let me put it this way. The CAL-3037 is the most advanced Plain English
01:08:01 <ehird> compiler ever made. No 3037 compiler has ever made a mistake or distorted
01:08:02 <ehird> information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof
01:08:04 <ehird> and incapable of error. Nevertheless...
01:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster: probably
01:08:32 <ehird> it can recurse can't it
01:08:34 <Slereah_> No one would be able to program anything on it
01:08:39 * ehird runs their example program on it
01:08:50 <ehird> its purpose seems to be to search for shit on google images then redraw it with dot
01:09:10 <pikhq> It has a "loop" construct.
01:09:15 <pikhq> And it seems to be able to do recursion.
01:09:28 <ehird> "When you start me up, I will quickly take over your screen so you no longer
01:09:28 <ehird> have to look at that painted whore of an interface that comes with the kluge."
01:09:39 <ehird> (Before: My primary function is to compile Plain English text files
01:09:40 <ehird> into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge. )
01:10:01 <pikhq> It doesn't do nested loops.
01:10:05 <pikhq> It doesn't do nested ifs.
01:10:07 <AnMaster> in the docs in the pdf, the TOC is broken
01:10:19 <ehird> their example program can draw george w bush
01:10:38 <nooga> i'll need to smoke a cig after seeing that
01:11:04 <ehird> Slereah_: i entered "george bush"
01:11:12 <pikhq> Would that recurse, or does it suck?
01:11:23 <ehird> To create a work given a URL:
01:11:23 <ehird> Allocate memory for the work.
01:11:28 <ehird> TALKING ABOUT MEMORY ALLOCATION IS SO PLAIN ENGLISH
01:11:30 <pikhq> If it does, then there is exactly one way to do anything, IMNSHO.
01:11:43 <oerjan> !slashes /*/0 \/ \\\/\/IX\\\/\/\/1\\I\/I0\/\/0\\I\/1\/\/\\\/\\I\/\\\/1\/\/X\\\/\/ \\\/\//****************/Q//
01:11:44 <EgoBot> 0 1 11 111 1111 11111 111111 1111111 11111111 111111111 1111111111 11111111111 111111111111 1111111111111 11111111111111 111111111111111
01:12:03 <AnMaster> you don't need recursion for TC. Assuming you have something like a while (condition) loop
01:12:10 <ehird> Slereah_: I am going to (valiantly) write a program in it
01:12:17 <ehird> in the butt directory of their compiler
01:12:24 <nooga> "we've put function in your function so you can derive while you derive"
01:12:30 <Slereah_> ehird : Would you be able to do a BF interpreter?
01:12:42 <ehird> \ this program is a butt
01:12:42 <ehird> \ (c) elliott hird 2009, aged 13
01:12:52 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, since when is \ plain English
01:13:00 <ehird> AnMaster: since never
01:13:06 <pikhq> Slereah_: It can't do nested loops.
01:13:13 <ehird> "Note that there are no unintuitive, distracting, space-consuming scroll bars
01:13:13 <ehird> anywhere in my interface. To scroll, press the right mouse button and shove."
01:13:17 <ehird> Scroll bars are unintuitive?
01:13:20 <ehird> Scroll bars are distracting?
01:13:21 <AnMaster> ok. This wouldn't be such a bad programming language idea, if it wasn't claiming to be plain English
01:13:22 <Slereah_> pikhq : But it can do recursion, no?
01:13:24 <pikhq> You would literally have to do crazy call shit. :)
01:13:27 <ehird> A few pixels of space is valuable?
01:13:48 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that it has enough to do a state machine.
01:14:01 <AnMaster> Almost, But not Completely, Different From English
01:14:02 <ehird> When you open anything else, it is converted in memory to a hexadecimal
01:14:02 <ehird> dump and displayed in the editor with the read-only flag set. You can,
01:14:02 <nooga> is there an esolang that bases on using underline, bold and italic? :D
01:14:04 <ehird> however, force me to open a file as text or as a dump. Look under "O".
01:14:20 <ehird> "To go back, use the Close command, click the tab, or whack the ESCAPE key."
01:14:24 <ehird> i feel obligated to actually whack it
01:14:26 <ehird> instead of just hitting it
01:14:32 * ehird whacks the escape key
01:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what about you tapping it?
01:14:36 <coppro> we need a ABNCDFE language
01:14:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not acceptable
01:14:54 <Slereah_> nooga : I try to do one that's based on exposants and shit
01:14:58 <ehird> "Here, for example, are the instructions my creators gave me for printing a
01:14:58 <ehird> number of copies of a source. It is part of the actual code in my editor file.
01:15:00 <ehird> Being edited in my editor. I love this. It's like looking into your own soul."
01:15:02 <ehird> this manual is far too sensual
01:15:21 <Slereah_> Yeah, it's a bit of a creepy computer
01:15:28 <ehird> [[Say you're looking for the above routine. Press CTRL-HOME to get to the
01:15:28 <ehird> top of the file. Then hit CTRL-F and start typing. T. We jump to the first "T"
01:15:30 <ehird> in the file. O. We're on the first "To". Keep this up until you're where you want
01:15:32 <ehird> to be. Use BACKSPACE if you make a mistake; CTRL-N to find the next;
01:15:34 <ehird> ESCAPE or a shortcut to end the search. It's as simple and efficient as that.]]
01:15:36 <ehird> Unfortunately, their editor does not use plain english.
01:15:46 <nooga> this is just a joke that became a horror
01:15:52 <AnMaster> ehird, AppleScript. But worse. And with a shitty implementation.
01:15:55 <ehird> pikhq: their documentation isn't a .ps
01:15:57 <ehird> it has a .pdf version
01:15:58 <AnMaster> is what this makes me think of.
01:16:01 <ehird> it's their own format
01:16:05 <ehird> based on "plain text"
01:16:09 <ehird> openable with... you guessed it
01:16:22 * ehird opens it in that for the full experience
01:16:52 <AnMaster> ehird, the links in the _PDF_ TOC point to the wrong places
01:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so doesn't work for you then
01:17:16 <nooga> or wait for mudkipz
01:17:57 <ehird> Slereah_: wow, it starts off with how to compile the compiler to make a new compiler
01:18:02 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I'll give you a hint: Table of C<something>
01:18:04 <ehird> i guess they just don't have any other programs apart frmo that and the sample
01:18:15 <ehird> AnMaster: give him a break he's foreign
01:18:28 <AnMaster> so I don't have to be nice to him
01:18:34 <AnMaster> since I'm in the same position myself
01:19:06 <AnMaster> on the other hand I worked with lots of TOCs in LaTeX, so I guess I got an upper hand there.
01:19:20 <Slereah_> i like a lot how they brag about how fast the thing self compiles and how small it is
01:19:36 <Slereah_> Which is not that small and not that fast, I think
01:19:42 <nooga> ehird: AnMaster: give him a break he's foreign << brothers: brit and swede
01:20:03 <ehird> "(3) I consider almost all other words to be just words, except for:
01:20:04 <ehird> (a) infix operators: PLUS, MINUS, TIMES, DIVIDED BY and THEN;"
01:20:07 <ehird> 3 to the power of OH SHIT
01:20:16 <AnMaster> nooga, oh you are agreeing with me
01:20:36 <nooga> AnMaster: agreeing with you
01:21:20 <ehird> Slereah_: "But there are things that may surprise you. Or challenge you. Or infuriate you."
01:21:22 <ehird> "Like EVERYTHING."
01:21:36 <ehird> "I don't care if you type in upper, lower, or mixed case. It's all the same to me.
01:21:36 <ehird> Life is hard enough without some JAVA programmer making it harder."
01:21:37 <ehird> Did they intentionally say JAVA?
01:21:38 <pikhq> I think one of the most awful things about this is the written-out operators.
01:21:43 <oerjan> !slashes /*/100 \/ \\\/\/IX\\\/\/\/1\\I\/I0\/\/0\\I\/1\/\/\\\/\\I\/\\\/1\/\/X\\\/\/ \\\/\//****************/Q//
01:21:43 <EgoBot> 100 101 1011 10111 101111 1011111 10111111 101111111 1011111111 10111111111 101111111111 1011111111111 10111111111111 101111111111111 1011111111111111 10111111111111111
01:21:48 <AnMaster> ehird, if it didn't claim to be plain English this wouldn't be too bad. It would be a rather verbose, and not really interesting, esolang
01:22:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: If it weren't serious.
01:22:28 <ehird> "I need a routine to 'initialize before run'."
01:22:48 <nooga> pikhq: but it isn't serious (is it?)
01:23:24 <ehird> I don't do REAL NUMBERS. I do ratios, very elegantly, but I don't do reals.
01:23:24 <ehird> My page editor reduces and enlarges and sizes shapes proportionately in and
01:23:26 <ehird> out of groups and it does it all without real numbers. Master Kronecker was
01:23:28 <ehird> right when he said, in German, "The dear God created the whole numbers; all
01:23:30 <ehird> else is the work of man." I'm not interested in menschenwerk.
01:23:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, when are you going to fix that bug
01:24:09 <pikhq> nooga: They've got a price tag.
01:24:10 <Slereah_> There should be an osmosian compiler on EsCo
01:24:41 * oerjan goes to double all \'s
01:24:44 <ehird> Last step. Make a new text file in our new directory and call it whatever you
01:24:44 <ehird> please. But don't give it an extension. I only compile files with no extension.
01:24:50 <ehird> so if you give it an extension it rejects it?
01:24:52 <nooga> what's EsCo? can't google it
01:25:18 <pikhq> nooga: Compiler suite for esolangs; work in progress.
01:25:41 <pikhq> Mostly, I've seen its BF compiler. Pretty good.
01:25:43 <nooga> may i ask... what for
01:25:45 <oerjan> !slashes /*/0 \\/ \\\\\\/\\/IX\\\\\\/\\/\\/1\\\\I\\/I0\\/\\/0\\\\I\\/1\\/\\/\\\\\\/\\\\I\\/\\\\\\/1\\/\\/X\\\\\\/\\/ \\\\\\/\\//****************/Q//
01:25:46 <ehird> oh, the error was cuz i didn't copy the NOOOODLE
01:25:51 <ehird> pikhq: no, it's crap
01:26:04 <pikhq> Esco is something else.
01:26:06 <ehird> esco is a shitty interpreter suite of rubbishcrap
01:26:09 -!- inurinternet has joined.
01:26:16 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
01:26:21 <oerjan> !slashes /*/0 \\/ \\\\\\/\\/IX\\\\\\/\\/\\/1\\\\I\\/I0\\/\\/0\\\\I\\/1\\/\\/\\\\\\/\\\\I\\/\\\\\\/1\\/\\/X\\\\\\/\\/ \\\\\\/\\//****************/Q//
01:26:41 <ehird> Slereah_: It needs full stops
01:26:44 <ehird> Say "Hello, world!"
01:26:51 <ehird> Error in butt. Idon't know how to 'Say [string] Shut down'.
01:26:54 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
01:27:04 <pikhq> On the bright side, I bet that it's easy to retarget.
01:27:12 <oerjan> huh EgoBot cannot connect
01:27:35 <nooga> http://esco.sourceforge.net/ < i hope that's not that Boehm of Boehm GC
01:28:18 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It's on my list, but I'm on vacation :P
01:28:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, it is a major BLOCKER bug
01:28:39 <pikhq> Now, what this *needs* is an LLVM backend.
01:28:50 <ehird> My creators thought alphabetical was best, so they put a "Sort Definitions"
01:28:51 <ehird> command under "S". It's a bit line-oriented, and loose comments stick to the
01:28:52 <ehird> routine above them. But try it out. You can Undo if you don't like the result.
01:28:54 <GregorR-L> It is a minor NEEDSONEIOTAOFTHOUGHT bug.
01:28:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've set up irssi to accept DCC from EgoBot automatically
01:29:18 <ehird> You will find that my editor displays simple comments in a delightful sky blue,
01:29:18 <ehird> making it easy for you to see what I'm going to ignore. And no, you can't
01:29:20 <ehird> change the color. My creators have assured me that this is the right color.
01:29:24 <oerjan> GregorR-L: so, why didn't !slashes respond at _all_ afterward?
01:29:41 <pikhq> ehird: ... Yet, they gave you the source code.
01:29:54 <ehird> There's one good thing about plain english
01:29:56 <ehird> It has an easy FFI:
01:30:01 <GregorR-L> Sometimes the system gets overloaded, and the interps run at such a low prio that they get booted off due to time limit, having gotten no cycles anyway :P
01:30:03 <ehird> Call "kernel32.dll" "Beep" with 220 and 200.
01:30:18 <AnMaster> ehird, forgot the [Hz] and [ms]
01:30:20 <ehird> Alas, I have no PC speaker with which to try it :-)
01:31:05 <nooga> http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/wiki/Optimization < QUITE nice
01:31:15 <AnMaster> Slereah_, google, first computer related result (there is "Fauna and Flora International" before "Foreign function interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia")
01:31:30 <oerjan> oh well, good night all
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01:31:45 <Slereah_> AnMaster : TLA are a bad thing to google
01:32:06 <ehird> The traditional term is "infinite loop", but since it is not large in size but long
01:32:06 <ehird> in duration, I prefer the term "eternal loop".
01:32:07 <nooga> AnMaster: any showable code yet?
01:32:07 <AnMaster> nooga, one thing missing, but produces equally good Hello world
01:32:55 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk/ in-between
01:33:15 <pikhq> A quote from this book.
01:33:19 <ehird> " If the event's kind is "left click", handle the event (left click); exit."
01:34:02 <pikhq> "I don't support nested conditionals. They're always unnecessary and almost always unclear. There are none in my code, and I'm the most advanced compiler alive today."
01:34:14 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/changes
01:34:33 <pikhq> FREAKING PEBBLE IS MORE ADVANCED!
01:34:45 <pikhq> AND IT'S A FREAKING MACRO LANGUAGE!
01:34:57 <Slereah_> Maybe we should make a page on the esowiki about it
01:35:12 <pikhq> Slereah_: 'Twould be best.
01:36:17 <pikhq> And they go on to claim that debuggers are for sissies.
01:36:22 <AnMaster> nooga, just pushed the "DCE end of program" code
01:36:31 <AnMaster> nooga, there are some stuff I'm missing yes
01:36:38 <AnMaster> but for hello world I preform as wlel
01:36:42 <pikhq> Yes, they claim that debuggers are wrong.
01:36:48 <nooga> looks extremely cool but i don't know erlang :D
01:37:18 <AnMaster> nooga, and where did it look cool?
01:37:44 <nooga> http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/annotate/head%3A/src/ib_opt_combine.erl
01:37:50 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/files/head:/test/ <-- rather large set of test files. Note they are for diffing generated code
01:38:04 <ehird> The background, as we've said, is a picture. Pictures require memory for
01:38:04 <ehird> storage. How much memory depends, of course, on the size of the picture.
01:38:06 <ehird> Since we don't always know in advance how big or small a picture might be,
01:38:08 <ehird> memory for pictures is allocated, dynamically, at run time. This memory must
01:38:10 <ehird> later be deallocated when it is no longer needed.
01:38:12 <ehird> THAT IS NOT PLAIN ENGLISH
01:38:50 <Slereah_> Malbolge has nothing on this :D
01:39:08 <ehird> If you don't, you will cause a "memory leak", and bits of memory will drip
01:39:08 <ehird> from your computer onto your shoes.
01:39:30 <AnMaster> you don't actually need then. x = a and b; y = d and e; result = x or y;
01:39:44 <nooga> AnMaster: where did you learn erlang?
01:39:48 <ehird> Slereah_: It actually tells you, when you quit a program that doesn't destroy what it creates, "1 drip(s)"
01:39:53 <ehird> Slereah_: So it knows you have objects left over
01:39:58 <ehird> But will it deallocate them for you?
01:40:11 <AnMaster> nooga, "Programming Erlang, Software for a Concurrent World" by Joe Armstrong
01:40:19 <pikhq> All these attempts to make something simple, and it doesn't garbage collect.
01:40:19 <Slereah_> Your computer is full of drips now
01:40:35 <nooga> i didn't know that paper forms exist
01:40:47 <ehird> pikhq: (3) Anything more than this falls under the heading "garbage collection" and,
01:40:47 <ehird> as every manly programmer knows, garbage collection is for sissies.
01:40:51 <AnMaster> I have an extensive library in this house
01:40:55 <ehird> That's a great, great justification
01:40:58 <pikhq> Really, this compiler would almost function as a textbook example of a bootstrap compiler.
01:41:07 <ehird> I bet they justified not having operator syntax with "Yo momma has operator syntax!"
01:41:55 <AnMaster> nooga, there are some newer books.
01:42:07 <AnMaster> and the one I have would be a bit outdated by now
01:42:25 <AnMaster> it is for Erlang R11B mostly iirc. while Erlang R13B is the current version
01:42:41 <AnMaster> for example, erlang now has Unicode and so on
01:42:50 <AnMaster> which the book says is a planned feature
01:42:53 <ehird> Slereah_: Pick a color between red and clue. ← fails
01:43:00 <ehird> Pick a color between the red color and the blue color.
01:44:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> Slereah_: Pick a color between red and clue. ← fails <-- I'm not surpised
01:44:30 <Slereah_> They didn't have a clue, si they ask for some :(
01:44:54 <ehird> If a counter is past 80000, break. ← when referring to the loop iteration.
01:44:58 <AnMaster> Slereah_, it asks user you know
01:45:00 <ehird> because that's how you declare a variable
01:45:05 <ehird> afterwards they use the proper "the counter"
01:45:31 <nooga> AnMaster: karlstad?
01:45:51 <nooga> you live there, right?
01:46:25 <pikhq> Their string representation is kinda weird.
01:46:26 <AnMaster> well. Mid-Sweden-kind-of-close
01:46:36 <pikhq> They store pointeres to the beginning and end of the string.
01:47:19 <pikhq> Not a pointer and a size_t, as any sane, non-null-terminated "a string is an array" implementation would do.
01:47:31 <nooga> AnMaster: then órebró
01:47:48 <nooga> with ó or with orebro? :p
01:48:19 <pikhq> Well, read most of it.
01:48:39 <AnMaster> nooga, if you have been in Sweden, surely you know how differently they are pronounced!
01:48:39 <pikhq> Well-documented, but quite hilarious.
01:48:46 <nooga> like: zrób mi łaskę - do me a favour; zrób mi laske - do me a blowjob
01:48:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, "Well-documented"... Nice.
01:49:16 <AnMaster> nooga, certainly in some cases...
01:49:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, they do give you most of the implementation details.
01:49:30 <pikhq> I know most of how the thing works.
01:49:39 <pikhq> I just think it's silly.
01:50:17 <nooga> AnMaster: oerebroo ?
01:50:39 <nooga> how to say this name
01:50:48 <AnMaster> nooga, not in Swedish at least!
01:51:07 <AnMaster> two o after each other doesn't make sense in Swedish
01:51:35 <nooga> then get a Polish pronounciation tutorial and try to say chrząszcz
01:51:55 <AnMaster> nooga, I prefer to stay (relatively) sane
01:52:49 <ehird> "Apple Rejects Ebook App Because It Could Be Used to Download Kama Sutra"
01:52:50 <AnMaster> nooga, you can't do ö -> oe in Swedish either. Doesn't make sense.
01:52:55 <nooga> chrząszcz -> beetle
01:53:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe it. Since it is Apple
01:53:15 <ehird> If you’re wondering why Eucalyptus is not yet available, it’s currently in the state of being ‘rejected’ for distribution on the iPhone App Store. This is due to the fact that it’s possible, after explicitly searching for them, to find, download from the Internet, and then read texts that Apple deems ‘objectionable’. The example they have given me is a Victorian text-only translation of the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana. For the full background,
01:53:18 <ehird> a log of my communications with Apple is below.
01:53:20 <ehird> http://www.blog.montgomerie.net/whither-eucalyptus
01:53:22 <ehird> AnMaster: apple are not the only stupid company
01:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed. But they are one of them
01:53:40 <ehird> mostly the iphone divison
01:53:42 <ehird> seems to be on crack
01:54:03 <AnMaster> "<ehird> AnMaster: apple are not the only stupid company"
01:54:12 <ehird> AnMaster: companies/bands are plural in British English.
01:54:12 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure it should be is
01:54:18 <ehird> no, that's an americanism
01:54:24 <ehird> in british english, groups are their members
01:55:25 <fizzie> They allowed the "Baby Shaker" iPhone app, though. Well, for a day or so, but still.
01:55:35 <nooga> is it possible that Jobs is an eunuch?
01:56:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's a picture of a baby, crying, and you have to shake the phone enough to make it quiet.
01:56:32 <fizzie> "On a plane, on the bus, in a theatre. Babies are everywhere you don't want them to be! They're always distracting you from preparing for that big presentation at work with their incessant crying. Before Baby Shaker, there was nothing you could do about it. See how long you can endure his or her adorable cries before you just have to find a way to quiet the baby down!"
01:56:57 <AnMaster> seems like the sanest one currently
01:57:08 <fizzie> Then you shake the phone and X's appear over the picture's eyes, I guess representing it losing consciousness.
01:57:26 <nooga> fizzie: that's the best part, i tell you
01:58:06 <fizzie> The publisher's web page now says it wasn't such a great idea: http://www.sikalosoft.com/
01:59:43 <nooga> AnMaster: you don't mind if i'll pop in for a visit when i'll be passing by orebro. amirite?
02:00:35 <AnMaster> nooga, wrong. Since I'm about two hours travel by car away
02:01:05 <nooga> two hours is nothing
02:01:10 <AnMaster> Plus. I prefer to keep things over irc.
02:01:22 <nooga> when i'm in scandinavia i drive for approx 8 hours a day
02:02:33 <nooga> AnMaster: okay, i respect that
02:05:01 <nooga> it's only that sweden is quite boring when you are there and got no aim: driving, driving, driving, eating, sightseeing lund, driving driving driving, having a beer, sleeping in a tent, not talking to anybody for 2 days, driving driving driving, admiring lake, driving, having a beer, sleeping in a tent, driving driving etc.
02:09:08 <nooga> but driving after sleeping
02:09:36 <nooga> buying beer in sweden costs me more than gas for my saab 9-5
02:09:57 <nooga> which is always broken
02:10:15 <nooga> i thought that too
02:10:25 <AnMaster> nooga, I know some saab owners, who say that
02:10:42 <AnMaster> one has a saab from the 70s which works just fine still
02:10:52 <AnMaster> and one has a rather modern one
02:10:57 <nooga> and i know that my 2.3t (200HP) engine stops in the middle of a highway
02:11:24 <AnMaster> nooga, out of fuel? didn't do the service every nth distance?
02:11:38 <nooga> full tank, did the service
02:12:04 <nooga> ignition chip is shitty
02:13:14 <nooga> my mercedes w123 from year 79 is more reliable than saab from 2005, pitty
02:14:23 <nooga> besides, i don't get how one can plan summer vacation in sweden
02:14:46 <nooga> i don't know anybody there, i don't know where parties are, i don't know what i want to see
02:15:14 <nooga> ...but i keep going there because the country is nice
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02:39:02 <pikhq> That's your hard drive hating you.
02:39:23 <bsmntbombdood> drive is unmounted, i can't imagine why it would spin up again
02:40:08 <pikhq> Some hacker from the 70s thinks your drive is a washing machine drive and is trying to make it walk?
02:40:17 <pikhq> (that'd be pretty awesome, actually)
02:41:27 <pikhq> Dunno; don't read reddit much.
02:42:34 <pikhq> Some article way the hell back?
02:42:46 <pikhq> Might've been jargon.txt, actually.
02:43:02 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Turing_tarpit
02:43:32 <pikhq> ... Walking drives?
02:43:37 <pikhq> Thought it was common knowledge.
02:46:46 <nooga> fuck, it's extremely late
02:51:38 <pikhq> Possibly bad shit.
02:51:45 <pikhq> IDE doesn't hot-swap ever.
02:52:07 <pikhq> SATA sometimes does, if your board and cable support it.
02:52:13 <pikhq> (why they didn't make it mandatory is beyond me)
02:53:40 <nooga> bsmntbombdood: once i've tried
02:54:02 <nooga> bsmntbombdood: some sparks, machine died and everything
02:54:13 <nooga> but after restart it booted smoothly
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06:31:17 <bsmntbombdood> it's like a zillion times quieter in here now that i finally got rid of that hard drive
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10:39:51 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ... Walking drives? <-- huh?
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11:41:14 <AnMaster> I just found out that you can have spaces in function names in erlang
11:41:24 <AnMaster> not usual, and rather confusing
11:42:53 <ais523> why did I just say la? I didn't mean to type that
11:42:57 <ais523> it must have been an extended typo
11:43:17 <ais523> ah, I was starting to type "also", got the first two letters the wrong way round, then hit return instead of backspace
11:43:51 <ais523> also, Prolog allows arbitrary characters in predicate names, but you have to escape the wierder ones
11:43:57 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway function names (and module names) are atoms
11:44:15 <ais523> I've never tried that in Prolog
11:44:35 <AnMaster> (you have to use single quotes, like in 'foo bar' if the atom isn't "the normal way")
11:46:08 <ais523> | ?- assertz((''(X) :- 3 is X)).
11:46:20 * AnMaster wonders what the null module filename would be
11:46:37 <AnMaster> and what about the produced code file... .beam or ''.beam
11:49:50 <AnMaster> foo bar.erl works for 'foo bar'
11:53:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I guess you could do lisp/scheme style function names with this if you wanted
11:53:58 <AnMaster> 'is-integer?'(Int) and 'integer->string'(Int) and so on
11:54:26 <ais523> not really, at least not in Prolog, because the calling conventions are so different
11:54:31 <ais523> your examples return a boolean and a string
11:54:40 <ais523> neither Prolog equivalent would return anything
11:54:44 <ais523> as Prolog predicates don't have return values
11:54:48 <AnMaster> ais523, perfectly possible in erlang though
11:54:52 <ais523> so you'd have integer(Int) and integer_string(Int,String)
11:55:03 <ais523> the second of which would convert either way round, depending on which argument it was given
11:55:16 <ais523> and the first of which would fail if given a non-integer value
11:55:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I would use the BIF is_integer/1 in erlang
11:56:22 <ais523> well, those are built-in functions in Prolog too, although I think the second has a slightly different name
11:56:31 <ais523> maybe atom_int or int_atom or something
11:56:38 <AnMaster> though, there is an EEP about allowing user defined functions in guards... iirc
11:57:32 <AnMaster> for integer->string I would actually do something like io_lib:format("~p", [MyInteger]) I guess...
11:57:47 <fizzie> atom_number(?Atom, ?Number), can be called both ways.
11:58:15 <fizzie> To convert from atom to number, or number to atom.
11:58:26 <AnMaster> io_lib:format("~p", [MyInteger]) <-- though that would be "anything to string..."
11:59:00 <fizzie> ?- atom_number(X, 42).
11:59:00 <fizzie> ?- atom_number('123', Y).
12:01:50 <fizzie> Prolog is so refreshingly different.
12:01:53 <fizzie> ?- atom_concat(A, B, foo).
12:02:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw... not sure if you saw it. but in-between now compiles that hello world as well as esotope-bfc
12:02:36 <AnMaster> some more work is needed on the polynom stuff to handle "constant isn't known in advance" case.
12:02:36 <ais523> maybe we should give it some gcc-bf output to see how it reacts?
12:02:44 <ais523> I'll see if I have a working hello world at the moment
12:03:23 <AnMaster> basically, all the stuff needed is there... Except I don't have an opcode to represent arbitrary stuff like p[2]=p[4]*p[9]
12:03:32 <AnMaster> so need to add that to the various passes.
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12:04:35 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, I got this idea for using a dependency graph, instead of operating on the parse tree... But I'm not sure how to represent loops. Neither balanced or unbalanced.
12:05:18 <AnMaster> ais523, if you have any idea about it... A DAG seems useful to handle it in general
12:05:42 <AnMaster> but I really know to little about these things
12:08:18 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 443921 2009-05-22 12:07 hworld1.bfrle
12:08:48 <AnMaster> ais523, the one I worked on was a simple one
12:08:59 <AnMaster> >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
12:08:59 <AnMaster> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
12:09:10 <AnMaster> I can also do the same for any !bf_txtgen
12:09:22 <ais523> AnMaster: 443921 for a hello world isn't that bad
12:09:29 <ais523> although that's avoiding both stdio and UNIXy output
12:09:41 <ais523> because it has to link in much of the C standard library
12:09:49 <ais523> I imagine that's mostly exception handling
12:09:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well. I probably can't do much for it
12:10:07 <AnMaster> ais523, err... can't you disable the pointless exception handling
12:11:06 <ais523> yes, by substituting your own __outside_main
12:11:18 <ais523> it gets a lot shorter if you do that
12:13:14 <ais523> ah, it's atexit that's taking up the space
12:13:41 * AnMaster founds out why something didn't work...
12:14:17 <AnMaster> because I tried to be smart and reduce work, but checking if value was already calculated and thus neededn't be recalculated... Except it it had been partially calculated...
12:17:40 <ais523> anyway, you might want to use my rather long hello, world as a test
12:18:25 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: fyi, i fixed the mistake in codegen for while. i'm also trying to improve readability of the code generally.
12:19:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I can't figure out how your code for the iteration count work, so I'm using a "stupid" way of doing it, but it works and is easy to understand
12:19:26 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(Const, Diff) ->
12:19:26 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, (Const + Diff) rem 256, 1).
12:19:27 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(_Const, _Diff, 0, Iters) ->
12:19:27 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(Const, _Diff, Const, _Iters) ->
12:19:31 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, Cur, Iters) ->
12:19:33 <AnMaster> is_add_infinite(Const, Diff, (Cur + Diff) rem 256, Iters+1).
12:19:47 <AnMaster> just iterating until it either repeats or hits 0
12:20:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, both if it is infinite or finite with a fixed count yeah
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12:20:38 <ais523> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/pqzmno/hworld1.bfrle
12:20:40 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, performance seems quite goof for the small numbers of bf
12:20:43 <ais523> note that that's run-length encoded
12:20:59 <AnMaster> how do I uncompress it or whatever
12:20:59 <ais523> in a format where +*10 means ++++++++++
12:21:28 <ais523> well, you may want to modify your interp to accept code that's already been encoded, that would be a lot more efficient than expanding and recontracting again
12:21:34 <ais523> because you almost certainly optimise runs of + and >
12:21:38 <lifthrasiir> well... let's assume the current cell is X before the loop, and the loop adds Y (or subtracts if Y<0) to/from the current cell .
12:21:43 <AnMaster> ais523, it would possibly break comments in normal bf files
12:21:53 <ais523> yep, which is why you make it a command-line option
12:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have command line option handling
12:22:20 <lifthrasiir> then there are several options: one thing is of course the trivial infinite loop, Y=0.
12:22:20 <ais523> but it's almost 444 metric kilobytes as it is
12:22:39 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, you are free to implement an alternative parser module
12:23:01 <ais523> AnMaster: setting up memory
12:23:08 <AnMaster> ais523, how many cells are needed
12:23:15 <AnMaster> currently I'm hard coded at 3000 iirc
12:23:16 <ais523> loads, several thousand I imagine
12:23:20 <ais523> I can have a look at the exact value if you like
12:23:36 <AnMaster> ais523, would need to know. as I treat "if you go outside the tape you are on your own"
12:23:55 <lifthrasiir> if Y!=0, then the loop runs k times where (X+Y*k) is a multiple of 256 (let's say it be W, for generalization), and runs forever if there is no such k.
12:23:56 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> then there are several options: one thing is of course the trivial infinite loop, Y=0. <-- yes, I handle that "unchanged" one elsewhere
12:24:57 <ais523> AnMaster: 0x862 * 6 tape elements of globals are used, plus 64 registers, plus a bit extra; the stack is shorter than that (it's mixed with the globals), and I don't think I use any heap
12:25:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so how large does the tape need to be?...
12:25:23 <ais523> so 13000 should be enough
12:25:24 <lifthrasiir> if Y<0, we can (safely) use W-Y instead, as it does same thing: adding Y is equivalent to adding (W-Y). so let's say Y>0.
12:25:45 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I would need a more complex parser module than currently
12:26:02 <ais523> AnMaster: no need to look ahead, just repeat the last character if you see a *
12:26:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I need to read the number after
12:26:18 <lifthrasiir> then X and Y is both assumed to be non-negative; we essentially have to solve the following equation, X+Y*k = W*x.
12:26:37 <AnMaster> ais523, which I assume is in hex for compactness? :P
12:26:53 <ais523> you could shave off a few bytes by making it hex, I suppose
12:26:59 <ais523> but the number rarely goes above a few thousand
12:27:39 <AnMaster> W was overflow value I remember
12:27:47 <ais523> the highest number in that code is <*12897
12:27:55 <ais523> that's coming back from the end of the tape to near the start
12:28:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and why was that code dividing a class by a number...
12:28:13 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: X is the current cell before the loop; Y is the addition to the current cell.
12:29:08 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: in case of ++[---->+<], X=2, Y=-4. i assume Y be positive so it should be Y=W-4=252 though.
12:29:25 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: it's because X is (generally) not known in advance.
12:29:50 <lifthrasiir> instead i construct (by dividing etc) the equivalent Expr object.
12:30:13 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what exactly does and expr represent?
12:30:31 <lifthrasiir> for example, Expr[0] / 4 gives the expression tree for "the quotient of the current cell divided by 4", etc.
12:31:05 <lifthrasiir> that's just for convenience, though i should have added more comments for it.
12:31:23 <lifthrasiir> this is equivalent to W*x-Y*k = X; we can solve W*a-Y*b = gcd(W,Y) then, by extended euclidean algorithm.
12:32:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I mean, lost me mathematically
12:34:38 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: you need more explanation, or give up about that then?
12:35:12 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how much would I gain from using your method, except speed.
12:35:46 <lifthrasiir> i'm not sure what is your method. does it work for every possible cases? or a subset of them?
12:36:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, currently not for when X is unknown. But I have an idea of how to make that work
12:36:42 <AnMaster> which is what I'm working on atm
12:41:31 * oerjan scares AnMaster with the extended euclidean algorithm. Boo!
12:43:28 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: i tried explaining it to him the other day, for the same purpose i think
12:44:09 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: and stuck at the extended euclidean like this, right?
12:44:25 <oerjan> actually he did implement the EEA in erlang...
12:45:28 <oerjan> maybe it was just all the letter symbols that scared him
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13:10:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't understand the algorithm
13:10:48 <AnMaster> sure, I can see how to calculate the EEA from pseudo code
13:11:13 <AnMaster> but that doesn't actually help me understand why/how it works
13:13:22 <oerjan> ok, point 1: a number X can be written as a sum of a multiple of W and a multiple of Y if and only if X is divisible by gcd(W,Y).
13:14:05 <oerjan> X = W*x - Y*k in lifthrasiir's equation
13:14:32 <oerjan> (you can make that - a +)
13:15:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw what is your rle file format officially called. For purpose of the parser name.
13:15:17 <ais523> I don't think it has an official name
13:15:27 <ais523> "gcc-bf run-lenth-encoded output" is descriptive enough
13:15:53 <AnMaster> ais523, one word name. ib_load_file_gccbfrle.erl ?
13:16:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, is W still the overflow value?
13:16:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the sort of name I might use
13:16:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: well for BF yes
13:17:12 <lifthrasiir> ais523: where is gcc-bf now? it seems to be disappeared with death of eso-std.org.
13:17:20 <ais523> lifthrasiir: on my hard drive
13:17:28 <ais523> since eso-std.org died, it isn't hosted anywhere
13:17:32 <ais523> but copies are available on request
13:17:38 <ais523> I haven't worked on it for ages, though
13:17:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, "X is divisible by gcd(W,Y)" implies "resulting in an integer"?
13:17:48 <ais523> next thing to implement is probably bitshifts
13:17:49 <oerjan> point 2: if X = m*gcd(W,Y), then we can solve for x and k by first solving the equation W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and setting x = m*x', k = -m*k'
13:17:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes. these are all integer equations
13:17:59 <ais523> some, like leftshifts without carry, are trivial
13:18:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, so that X mod gcd(W,Y) = 0
13:18:05 <ais523> some, like signed rightshifts, aren't
13:18:23 <AnMaster> <oerjan> point 2: if X = m*gcd(W,Y), then we can solve for x and k by first solving the equation W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and setting x = m*x', k = -m*k' <-- what is m
13:18:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: m = X/gcd(W,Y)
13:19:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, why lower case x but upper case y?
13:20:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: there was an upper case X too
13:20:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh is it case sensitive
13:20:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: math is generally case sensitive
13:20:59 <oerjan> it is even _font_ sensitive, but we cannot use that on irc
13:21:28 <oerjan> (for weirder fonts such as calligraphic, anyway)
13:21:32 <ais523> some programming languages are font-sensitive
13:21:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, x' is supposed to be "deriverad" right? (Don't remember the English word for it)
13:21:48 <ais523> algol 68 famously was, and specified all sorts of ways to indicate the two fonts
13:22:00 <ais523> AnMaster: "derivative" is the English word
13:22:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: ' = prime, it's just part of the name
13:22:09 <ais523> but the same notation can also just mean "a different x"
13:22:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't that more like a forward slanting ` ?
13:22:24 <ais523> the symbol's called "prime" when used in that context
13:22:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm trying to get by with mostly ascii here!
13:22:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, kay. Caused some confusion
13:23:32 <fizzie> Prime is ′, there's also the double-prime ″ and triple-prime ‴. But ' is a very good substitute.
13:23:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: i used the same names with a prime because the equation with gcd(W,Y) parallels the one with X
13:23:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the ' seems more like in y = 'y + x to me
13:25:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: anyway, since the extended euclidean algorithm also calculates gcd(W,Y) for us, we can first use it to solve W*x' + Y*k' = gcd(W,Y) and then check if X is divisible by gcd(W,Y)
13:25:44 <fizzie> It's exactly the same "prime" character they use with derivatives as well as in the "transformed x" case, so ' shouldn't really look "more like a derivative".
13:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I blame the typesetting in the textbook that introduced me to derivatives!
13:28:05 <fizzie> Well, Newton used the ḋȯṫ ȧḃȯv̇ė, that's even sillier.
13:28:25 <AnMaster> yes I just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_for_differentiation
13:28:35 <fizzie> So ö is the second derivative of o.
13:29:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that the algorithm only gives one solution for x' and k'. the others are x' + n*(Y/gcd(W,Y)), k' - n*(W/gcd(W,Y)) for an arbitrary n, iirc
13:29:27 <fizzie> Like wikipedia says, physicians tend to mix dots and primes and use the character to differentiate between time-derivatives and other-derivatives.
13:29:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, err *please stand by while parsing*
13:30:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, are the other solutions relevant though
13:31:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: only one is relevant, but i'm not sure the algorithm gives the right one immediately
13:32:07 <oerjan> in the original you want the smallest possible positive k for X = W*x - Y*k
13:32:40 <oerjan> because that corresponds to the first time you hit 256*x in the BF loop
13:33:52 <oerjan> since k is the number of iterations
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13:34:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, then another question is: What does I gain compared to my brute force variant.
13:34:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: you can solve it for general X, so you don't need it to be constant
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13:35:35 <lifthrasiir> the resulting equation is very simple, just a multiplication by constant.
13:35:53 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Maxsteele2 < this looks a bit useless so far
13:36:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, your expression code is confusing though
13:36:46 <AnMaster> but yeah I see how it could work
13:36:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: agree, since the entire code is started from ad-hoc script.
13:37:05 <oerjan> Slereah_: well it's a user page
13:38:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I didn't write a design document either. But I thought for about half a minute about design first. And I have written BF compilers before
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13:39:39 <AnMaster> and that meant: main control module (handles calling the other ones in the right order) file loader module, optimiser modules, output modules
13:40:29 <AnMaster> ais523, correct me if I'm wrong... But you said the only difference was that on * you read the number (in decimal) that follows, and multiplies the previous instruction by that
13:40:40 <AnMaster> ais523, and this is only allowed for - + > <?
13:40:46 <ais523> it's only generated for - + > <
13:41:08 <ais523> I wouldn't allow it for [ and ], anyway
13:41:24 <ais523> as for . and , I can't think of a sensible use-case for repeating, so they're disallowed too
13:41:35 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: well, i agree it is undocumented, but the design itself is, i think, reasonable.
13:41:42 <ais523> and repeating % makes no sense, but % in gcc-bf output is a true comment from the point of view of most interps
13:41:48 <ais523> as it's the equivalent of assert in C
13:41:52 <AnMaster> ais523, why the odd newlines. I mean >>>+\n>>>+\n is a bit wasteful
13:42:00 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+...............................
13:42:00 <fungot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
13:42:08 <ais523> AnMaster: the newlines correspond to different things in the original
13:42:09 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, possibly. But I'm not familiar with python OOP really.
13:42:20 <ais523> and \n isn't really that wasteful
13:42:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and I strongly dislike abstractions you can't easily inspect. like when print Expr didn't didn't something sane
13:42:45 <AnMaster> had to figure out I needed print Expr.code
13:43:23 <AnMaster> ais523, the integer will be [1-9][0-9]* right?
13:43:56 <AnMaster> [This code requires an 8-bit wrapping implementation, and
13:43:56 <AnMaster> lots of tape space! Use of an implementation that optimises
13:43:56 <AnMaster> long runs of + - < > is strongly recommended.]
13:44:05 <ais523> AnMaster: header comment
13:44:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it's at the very start of the file, it never runs
13:44:28 <AnMaster> ais523, so I need to skip the first few [] too?
13:44:30 <ais523> [.+-<>.] at the very start of regular BF does nothing
13:44:32 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you don't
13:44:35 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: you mean Expr.__repr__ in esotope-bfc has any side effect?
13:44:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> [.+-<>.] at the very start of regular BF does nothing <-- huh?
13:44:43 <ais523> [,+-<>.] is legal BF code
13:44:44 <fizzie> Tape is 0 at the beginning, so it's skipped always.
13:44:47 <ais523> but the [ sees that the tape is 0
13:44:50 <ais523> so it jumps past the ]
13:45:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, no. but figuring out why what I thought was a plain integer printed as {3}...
13:45:24 <AnMaster> it seemed to be the offset though
13:45:28 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: ah, that needs some explanation, right.
13:45:52 <lifthrasiir> that was once p[3], but changed to compact and language-neutral notation.
13:46:03 <ais523> a header comment - a no-op loop either at the start of a file or immediately after another loop - is a common BF idiom
13:46:12 <ais523> and trivial to optimise out
13:46:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, So your code generators parse the strings?
13:46:37 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: no, just code generator and inspection routine was same.
13:46:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, mine parse the bf code tree. Not sure if "parse tree" would fit. Since it isn't any longer at that point
13:47:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I also tried to print the __dict__ since that usually seems to work to inspect internals of python objects. Only when I found out what __slots__ did I understood why that didn't work
13:48:19 <ais523> AnMaster: people normally call it a parse tree anyway, even though it isn't
13:48:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so that is why lostking starts with (iirc) [-][.] ? :P
13:48:32 <ais523> AnMaster: quite probably
13:48:35 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't really an AST either
13:48:39 <ais523> no doubt there are comments there, just you've never looked
13:48:56 <AnMaster> well there are iirc. but not like that
13:48:57 <ais523> maybe they were removed in the version you have?
13:49:25 <AnMaster> but I seen one beginning with something like # Foo barh
13:49:38 <AnMaster> ais523, mine ends with a @ if that helps
13:49:43 <ais523> I have a version starting #!/usr/bin/bf, followed by some authorship information
13:49:51 <ais523> but it has just a plain [-][.] at the start
13:50:05 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: maybe i should make __repr__ prints '<Expr: ...>', and add something like ascompact() for helping other __repr__s. you're right at that point.
13:50:06 <ais523> mine also ends without an @, though
13:50:44 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc lostking came with some optimiser script... I might have used it
13:51:06 <ais523> wow, bfrle is /fast/ on LostKng, and it isn't even particularly optimising
13:51:23 <ais523> (bfrle's my BF interp, invented specifically to debug gcc-bf, and it has several features for doing that)
13:51:37 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I have nothing against objects and structs, as long as they are transparently inspectable for debugging/tracing purposes!
13:51:56 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: but __dict__ is not an universal way for inspecting python object.
13:52:12 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yeah, I'm missing that
13:52:26 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what is the universal way. That reveal all the relevant instance data
13:52:36 <lifthrasiir> so i think i just have to document the semantics, and that should be all.
13:53:24 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not sure, but __dict__ is not that way.
13:54:05 <AnMaster> for erlang records, I just have to print it. Internal format of erlang records are tagged tuples. So while a bit hard to read "{bfe_block,true,false,false,false,false,4,false,{add,3},{dict,.......},true}" it is quite possible. And I could just import the record definition in the REPL and it will pretty print it for me.
13:54:08 <oerjan> whoops, the wiki spammers are catching on: "This site is crazy :)"
13:54:09 <lifthrasiir> or using dir() to retrieve all attributes.
13:54:45 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, did you say dir() isn't it?
13:55:06 <lifthrasiir> but it will include a list of methods as well
13:55:19 <fizzie> Python has the "inspect" module if you want to poke live objects.
13:55:20 <lifthrasiir> (since bounded methods are accessed like attributes)
13:56:04 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: oh, i completely missed that module.
13:57:24 <AnMaster> ais523, hm an issue... pattern matching becomes less optimised for the RLE in this case. Due to how erlang optimises certain form of pattern matching to just pass a pointer to the tail instead of building a new binary. For pathological cases it might be slower to load a RLE encoded file thus
13:57:47 <AnMaster> not sure if it would be noticable
13:57:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the unencoded file has trouble fitting in my memory, the RLE-encoded file doesn't
13:58:02 <AnMaster> ais523, how large is the unencoded one
13:58:09 <ais523> probably not that much larger in this case
13:58:24 <ais523> but for large programs like C-INTERCAL, large enough that it's caused thrashing before now
13:58:31 <AnMaster> I need to scan the tail to read the integer
13:59:00 <AnMaster> I guess I could implement stateful parsing
13:59:12 <AnMaster> to have a "integer state" and "normal" state
13:59:48 <ais523> anyway, going for a couple of hours, I want to go home
13:59:51 <ais523> and have something to eat on the way
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14:44:33 <AnMaster> when he gets back I have to point out that
14:44:38 <nooga> nooo... there's a bug in my tea
14:44:59 <nooga> tried, bud now it tastes awful
15:01:29 <nooga> llvm still not buildable ;|
15:05:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: [-*- brainfuck -*-] is invalid at the start? why?
15:06:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, because it is run length encoded by (regex!) [+-<>]\*[1-9][0-9]*
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15:08:54 <lifthrasiir> but seems too artificial. is that regex mandated in some spec, or just chosen for convenience?
15:09:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I asked ais about the valid format above
15:09:31 <AnMaster> and from what he told me it matches
15:09:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not invalid, just not 1 lookahead...
15:09:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong. There must be a number after *
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15:10:20 <oerjan> and if there isn't, you can interpret it as a standalone *
15:11:25 <oerjan> the only reason to disallow it it is a slightly easier parsing
15:13:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, the integer will be [1-9][0-9]* right?
15:14:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: that regex doesn't mention comments at all, thus if comments are allowed anything which doesn't match it must be a comment, q.e.d. >:)
15:14:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, removing dead loops happen way later than parsing
15:14:59 <AnMaster> in the "intitial memory all zero" propagation pass
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15:15:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, why? It allows stuff you can't otherwise
15:15:37 <AnMaster> like constant folding ++ into "set 2"
15:18:21 <AnMaster> [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[- <-- this looks really strange
15:18:32 <AnMaster> yeah there are other code later
15:19:10 <AnMaster> [-[-]<[- is equal to [[-]<[- after all
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15:47:32 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I suppose that as it isn't asterisk-number, it's just a comment
15:48:07 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and the generated code is more than twice as large the generated code of lostking
15:48:29 <ais523> well, it contains atexit
15:48:34 <ais523> which in turn contians malloc
15:48:52 <AnMaster> ais523, roughly the first ~5000 lines are spent for setting those 1s every third cell
15:48:59 <AnMaster> gccbflife.c lines 5125-5170/97136 6%
15:49:09 <AnMaster> oh and you generate silly code too
15:49:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a case statement
15:49:29 <AnMaster> which when put on one line for readability
15:49:36 <AnMaster> [-[-]<[- which is equal to [[-]<[- after all
15:49:50 <ais523> and to keep the start of each statement consistent
15:49:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it is right after the constant setting code
15:50:05 <ais523> yes, it's the very first case of the case statement
15:50:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I had to ulimit erlang to 512 MB RAM to avoid swap trashing in the "initial memory is all zero" propagation pass
15:50:29 <ais523> and as they're in reverse order, it's the bit after the end of the program
15:50:33 <nooga> am i right that inline clause does not guarantee that function will be used inline?
15:50:50 <ais523> many compilers will respect hints such as inline and register
15:51:03 <ais523> which is ironic because the compiler can often do better than you can at figuring out where inline and register should go
15:51:18 <nooga> under what circumstances?
15:51:31 <pikhq> There's __attribute__ ((always_inline)) if you really *want* it to be inlined.
15:51:35 <AnMaster> the inner one is due to [<<<<<<]
15:51:40 <AnMaster> being converted into a "seek" node
15:51:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, I once used the opposite, never_inline, in cfunge
15:52:06 <ais523> nooga: the only compiler I know some of the rules for is the old Borland C++ 4
15:52:08 <AnMaster> it was for the --help output function
15:52:12 <ais523> which would never inline anything containing loops, for some reason
15:52:15 <AnMaster> which GCC liked to inline into the hot code path
15:52:16 <pikhq> ... That's an attribute?
15:52:22 <pikhq> static does the same thing.
15:52:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't remember the spelling
15:52:57 <nooga> because i thought that i can use functions for sadol loops that return value
15:53:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's just that static would do the same thing. ;)
15:53:35 <nooga> !sadol :i+91!@>i0:i+i1
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15:53:56 <nooga> !sadol :i+91!@>i0:i-i1
15:53:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, static does not prevent inlining
15:54:04 <nooga> !sadol :i+91!@>i1:i-i1
15:54:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, rather it makes it more likely
15:54:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, since compiler can know function isn't used from outside
15:54:25 <pikhq> The *lack* of static would.
15:54:55 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, once I removed the -*- line I can parse your file. The issue with with the initial memory all zero propagation pass
15:55:00 <pikhq> And actually, it wouldn't prevent inlining, it'd just make sure there was a non-inlined one.
15:55:15 <ais523> AnMaster: incidentally, [>>>>>>] and [>>>], etc, are very very common in gcc-bf
15:55:17 <AnMaster> ais523, which as it goes, builds a set of clobbered locations, and converts those + into sets
15:55:19 <ais523> they're how I implement pointers
15:55:31 <ais523> but the bit at the start is just initialising memory with constants
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15:55:42 <AnMaster> ais523, they are turned into seek nodes, and I can't currently track max/min bounds on where it could move
15:56:00 <AnMaster> only think I know after a seek is that current cell will be 0
15:56:01 <ais523> theory: I may somehow be able to get smaller programs by automatically setting every third cell to 1
15:56:25 <ais523> I mean, some sort of loop that sets every third cell to 1
15:56:30 <ais523> rather than doing it all by hand
15:56:38 <ais523> trying to figure out when to end might be tricky, though
15:57:05 <AnMaster> ais523, it would really need converting into a loop. From unrolled code
15:57:21 <AnMaster> something I can't do currently. Nor do most other BF programs gain anything from it
15:57:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it isn't trivial in that program
15:57:56 <AnMaster> a section of the constant folded code
15:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, not EVERY cell is actually 1
15:58:05 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, the idea would be to set all the non-third values separately
15:58:08 <ais523> then set every third cell to 1
15:58:14 <ais523> if you look, you'll notice that every third cell is 1
15:58:17 <ais523> just some of the others have values too
15:58:33 <ais523> that's the equivalent of the initialised data section
15:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you optimise out atexit() and such
15:58:46 <ais523> atm, I mix bss in with initialised data just because it's easy, I may optimise that later
15:59:01 <AnMaster> rewrite the stdio used in your libc
15:59:03 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not particularly easy to optimise it out
15:59:13 <ais523> given that it might be in a different object file, or a library
15:59:32 <AnMaster> ais523, you would know at link time. Store enough metadata to do LTO
15:59:48 <ais523> possibly worth it for the future
15:59:53 <AnMaster> ais523, also , user could give -fwhole-program
16:00:00 <ais523> although atexit's pretty small, most of the bloat is because atexist brings in malloc
16:00:05 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I think -Os would be the sanest for gcc-bf
16:00:18 <ais523> good point, actually, that compile was with -O0
16:00:23 <ais523> because I forgot to give an optimisation option
16:01:06 <ais523> oh, but it'll hardly make a difference
16:01:10 <ais523> as optimisation options don't affect libc
16:01:43 <ais523> I'm not sure what I use at the moment
16:02:17 <AnMaster> that could be optimised I think
16:02:25 <AnMaster> except I can't really detect that reliably currently
16:02:28 <ais523> AnMaster: incidentally, the p[-42]+=255, etc, is gcc initialising the stack
16:02:40 <AnMaster> ais523, to -1 every other cell?
16:03:00 <AnMaster> or, that depends on what current value is
16:03:03 <ais523> no, it's wiping out the markers that state that there is a stack element there
16:03:07 <ais523> I think it's probably changing 1 to 0
16:03:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also it contained dead code
16:03:49 <AnMaster> I found this due to it triggered a bug
16:03:56 <AnMaster> a balanced loop containing a dead unbalanced one
16:04:32 <ais523> I wonder what the dead loop is in the original ABI?
16:04:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no idea *where* it was even
16:04:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't track any sort of position information
16:05:55 <AnMaster> to the degree that when parser hits mismatching [] it can only say that happened, but not where
16:06:18 <ais523> ah, obviously I'm spoilt with bfrle
16:06:40 <ais523> it gives pretty good errors
16:06:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well, it dumps what I need to fix ICEs currently
16:06:58 <ais523> things like a tape dump as soon as the IP is anywhere other than where gcc-bg thinks it is
16:07:25 <ais523> and with columns marked so as to show what gcc-bf uses them for
16:07:34 <AnMaster> it was due to balance=false cells_touched_dict_complete=true not being supposed to happen
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16:08:35 <AnMaster> so I thought of possible reasons, wrote a small test case, which turned out (as expected) to trigger it, then I fixed it so the test case worked, and then gcc-bf also worked
16:09:42 <ais523> at least gcc-bf looks like a simple practical way to generate the longest BF programs ever
16:09:49 <ais523> I'm emulating an entire processor in there
16:09:59 <ais523> and it has its own mini-OS
16:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know how large it is without RLE... The RLE encoding is smaller than lostking though
16:10:53 <ais523> yes, but just imagine how large it would be if I used stdio
16:11:00 <pikhq> ais523: A *processor*.
16:11:14 <ais523> pikhq: it has a stack, a heap, and 64 registers
16:11:28 <pikhq> Imagine if you emulated libc via PSOX.
16:11:29 <ais523> oh, and an instruction pointer
16:11:36 <ais523> pikhq: I already emulate much of libc
16:11:53 <ais523> although it's a kind of rubbish one, only marginally better than DOS 1's in some respect
16:11:55 <pikhq> That's impressive.
16:12:00 <ais523> of course, this would all be more impressive if it actually worked
16:12:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I have now added a parser module for it. And pushed. Note that 1) It can currently only be used manually from the erlang REPL, not from the shell script wrapper. 2) It throws and user_error exception on * with isn't followed by at least one digit.
16:13:42 <AnMaster> "Invalid instruction to multiply.", "No integer found after *. ASCII ~B found.", "Integer expected but found EOF.", "Multiply not allowed without instruction in front." are possible errors for it
16:13:57 <AnMaster> the last one happens for [* too
16:14:03 <ais523> or you could just treat the * as a comment
16:14:17 <ais523> otherwise, how could I get emacs to highlight .bfrle files in brainfuck-mode?
16:14:22 <AnMaster> since the code is recursive and sees the same for [* and "start of file"*
16:14:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well I asked you about format before, but if you changed your mind, sure. Just make an official spec first ;P
16:15:12 <ais523> maybe once I get gcc-bf working
16:15:29 <ais523> bitshifts and 32-bit loop are the main things I'm missing, I think
16:15:36 <ais523> and a decently efficient multiply algorithm
16:15:50 <ais523> I suspect I used the copout of addition in a loop, it's a while since I did that though so I can't rememebr
16:16:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so would you say that * with no integer after is to be treated as comment? Does this apply when * is last in the file too?
16:16:44 <AnMaster> I can't possibly handle the case of * after [ or at start of file as comment though
16:16:50 <AnMaster> not without rewriting the parsing completely
16:17:04 <ais523> AnMaster: * with no integer after treated as comment is likely to be good enough
16:17:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but it must have something before
16:17:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and that something must not be a [
16:18:30 <ais523> although what crazy parsing method are you using?
16:18:48 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<>>, Tree, 0) ->
16:18:48 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<>>, _Tree, _Depth) ->
16:18:48 <AnMaster> ?THROW_USER_ERROR(unbalanced_loop);
16:18:54 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<$+ ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) ->
16:18:54 <AnMaster> parse_binary(T, [#bfn{ ins = add, val = 1 }|Tree], Depth);
16:18:54 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<$- ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) ->
16:18:55 <AnMaster> parse_binary(T, [#bfn{ ins = add, val = 255 }|Tree], Depth);
16:18:57 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<$> ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) ->
16:19:09 <AnMaster> handles unknown one at the end and such
16:19:33 <ais523> AnMaster: why can't it just treat unknown as comment, like every other bf interp does?
16:19:44 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<_H,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) ->
16:19:48 <ais523> also, that's so much uglier than the equivalent Cyclexa
16:19:56 <ais523> almost certainly, at least
16:19:57 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<$* ,_T/binary>>, [], _Depth) ->
16:19:57 <AnMaster> ?THROW_USER_ERROR("Multiply not allowed without instruction in front.");
16:19:57 <AnMaster> parse_binary(<<$* ,T/binary>>, Tree, Depth) ->
16:19:57 <AnMaster> parse_integer(T, [], Tree, Depth);
16:20:01 <ais523> I haven't specced out Cyclexa fully yet
16:20:08 <AnMaster> parse_integer then calls parse_binary again
16:20:20 <AnMaster> so they are mutually recursive
16:20:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it is almost same code as the normal parser
16:21:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't see any reason to change the code too much.
16:21:50 <ais523> the traditional LR(1) method would be to look at the next char, if it's an integer than parse it as an integer, otherwise just pass it back to parse_binary
16:21:56 <ais523> that prevents duplicating code
16:22:16 <ais523> in fact, I think that works even in LR(0)
16:22:30 <ais523> AnMaster: you said parse_integer and parse_binary had almost the same code
16:22:34 <ais523> which implies they're mostly duplicates
16:23:03 <AnMaster> parse_binary is almost the same as for the normal BF parser
16:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, is this how you mean for integer parser then: http://rafb.net/p/u0xfRT89.html
16:23:47 <AnMaster> also that to_integer failed should be THROW_ICE
16:24:31 <ais523> that looks about right
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16:28:31 <ais523> hmm... latest update on the door situation: the main doors are broken and have been for over a week (and so are getting locked by hand), and the other doors are behaving themselves for once but security sometimes locks them by mistake
16:28:57 <ais523> so the emergency door in the basement, the one that actually works, has now been set to let anyone leave, to prevent people getting accidentally locked in the department
16:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, and for full details of my parsing see: http://bzr.kuonet.org/in-between/trunk/annotate/head:/src/ib_load_file_gccbfrle.erl
16:30:19 <AnMaster> ais523, checkout url is as usual http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/in-between/trunk/
16:30:31 <AnMaster> (I think I mentioned it before right?)
16:30:45 <ais523> although I don't have an in-between repo
16:31:04 <AnMaster> ais523, probably needs Erlang R13B at least
16:31:27 <AnMaster> might work with R12B though. But I haven't tested. And I don't have that installed anyway
16:32:09 <AnMaster> and no I haven't yet had time to work more on the polynoms.
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16:35:41 <AnMaster> ais523, and no it won't work to run it directly on it
16:35:55 <AnMaster> if you want to I can give you the manual commands for now
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16:37:23 -!- ehird has joined.
16:39:54 <ehird> 01:08 AnMaster: nooga, s/beer/water/ ← that's liable to make sweden even more boring for nooga
16:40:26 <nooga> ehird: England will be next
16:40:41 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
16:40:53 <ehird> nooga: if you drop by hexham you're welcome not to visit me
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16:41:56 <ehird> 10:55 ais523: the second of which would convert either way round, depending on which argument it was given ← omg, prolog does bijective functions elegantly
16:42:00 <nooga> probably you've met some of my uneducated fellow-countrymans
16:42:12 <ais523> ehird: it's one of my favourite things about Prolog
16:42:17 <nooga> and i'm affraid that's all for England
16:42:30 <ais523> a function which doesn't biject properly, using the same code for both directions, is considered inelegant
16:42:42 <ais523> although in practice you have to write inelegant code quite a bit
16:42:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so do you want those REPL commands or not?
16:42:50 <ais523> AnMaster: not particularly
16:42:53 <ehird> nooga: i don't think I've ever seen a pole except in passing
16:43:52 <ehird> ais523: gcc-bf links? omgwtf
16:44:02 <nooga> ehird: isn't hexham that village near newcastle?
16:44:20 <ehird> we have (a) an abby, (b) a market
16:44:28 <ehird> it's delightfully boring although apparently well-known
16:44:40 <ehird> i guess if you like old crusty churches it's great
16:44:43 <AnMaster> ok I'm going to construct something like lifthrasiir's expression class in erlang I guess
16:45:10 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: do you have any idea on expression canonicalization?
16:45:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, not really currently. I'm just working on a small library to implement it
16:45:41 <ehird> 11:31 lifthrasiir: this is equivalent to W*x-Y*k = X; we can solve W*a-Y*b = gcd(W,Y) then, by extended euclidean algorithm.
16:45:42 <ehird> 11:31 AnMaster: you lost me about there.
16:45:44 <ehird> ↑ oh come on that was rather trivial
16:45:50 <nooga> ehird: i don't like churches, even though i'm polish ;p
16:46:05 <AnMaster> poly:mul(poly:const(3), poly:cell(-2)) to create something meaning p[-2]*3;
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16:46:18 <ehird> nooga: then the only thing you could do in Hexham is either come on the right day and look at the boring market and not visit a 13-year-old named elliott hird
16:46:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, does the API seem sane to you
16:46:41 <ehird> i'm reading the bottom log pane
16:46:41 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not good at erlang so i cannot really say. ;)
16:46:47 <ehird> which is only ~2.8 lines
16:47:30 <ehird> 12:17 AnMaster: oerjan, "X is divisible by gcd(W,Y)" implies "resulting in an integer"?
16:48:01 <ais523> latest news (as in today): Itanium will be delayed until 2010
16:48:03 <ehird> AnMaster: no, basic mathematical knowledge fail
16:48:04 <AnMaster> I'm not good at this in Englihsh.
16:48:17 <AnMaster> ehird, "divisible by" would be "jämt delbart med"
16:48:18 <ais523> I didn't realise Intel were still trying to work on it....
16:48:19 <ehird> AnMaster: would you know what it meant directly translated to swedish?
16:48:26 <ehird> ais523: it's used in supercomputer clusters
16:48:32 <ehird> but it's a bit of a dead horse
16:48:37 <ais523> it's very much a dead horse
16:48:42 <AnMaster> ehird, translated back to English it would be "evenly divisible by"
16:48:44 <ehird> but you can imagine... replacing supercomputer clusters is ha rd
16:48:47 <AnMaster> ehird, which is rather different
16:48:51 <ais523> incidentally, SCO blame IBM for intentionally sabotaging it
16:48:59 <ehird> ais523: what, itanium
16:49:01 <ais523> although I'm not entirely sure why, or why they thing this helps their case
16:49:28 <ais523> I gave up trying to understand SCO logic months ago
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16:50:26 <ehird> in other news, i have decided to write a brainfuck-or-something interpreter in the excellent language Plain English. Slereah_ will be plased.
16:50:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, basic "units" you could consider as constant:Value and cell:Offset . These can be combined like (+ basic_unit basic_unit)
16:50:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:50:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, except that these operations could be nested
16:50:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
16:50:57 <AnMaster> so you have such an expression in the place of the basic unit
16:51:09 <ais523> oh, I see: according to SCO, IBM created a market for Linux by refusing to advertise Itanium correctly, thus causing a big 64-bit UNIX partnership to fail
16:51:33 <ehird> how does that follow in any universe :D
16:51:52 <ehird> AnMaster: read it a few more times.
16:51:53 <ais523> let's just say, SCO logic does not make a whole lot of sense however you look at it
16:52:18 <ais523> oh, and all this was a distraction to make SCO fall behind developing UnixWare
16:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, why would IBM advertise Itanium at all, They would be more interested in their own POWER Arch I think
16:52:37 <ehird> ais523: someone has to diagnose them with some sort of mental illness and quickly
16:52:57 <ais523> AnMaster: so that everyone switched to their brand-new version of 64-bit UNIX
16:53:06 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Apple3.14 ← can you delete this? even I think it's not worth keeping and I hate deleting things
16:53:55 <ais523> ooh, and that's how IBM managed to steal SCO's trade secrets and put them into Linux
16:54:06 <ais523> ehird: I can, but it isn't obvious spam, so I suggest you start a delete debate on the talk page
16:54:19 <ehird> LOL@ AnMaster not realising that [foo] doesn't infiniteloop atthe start of a program
16:54:32 <ehird> ais523: in that case I'll just leave it, more trouble than it's worth
16:54:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I certainly do. I already had an optimiser pass removing it for several days
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16:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, read the logs
16:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, was just a temp brain fart
16:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to imply I didn't know it before.
16:55:47 <ehird> ais523: LostKng has no comments because it's compiled code...
16:55:58 <ehird> well, apart from the hand-added authorship info
16:56:08 <ais523> ehird: the [-][.] at the start is rather curious
16:56:20 <ehird> ais523: BFBASIC is a dumb compiler
16:56:31 <ais523> I can't even think about how a compiler would begin to generate that
16:56:51 <ais523> I mean, AnMaster points out -[-] in gcc-bf output, but that's simply a consequence of a switch case with no code in
16:57:09 <ehird> 12:52 AnMaster: lifthrasiir, what is the universal way. That reveal all the relevant instance data ← none, and this is by design
16:57:13 <ehird> that's evil in any OO language
16:57:28 <AnMaster> ais523, and I know there is other dead code in it. Just no idea where
16:57:39 <ehird> 13:44 AnMaster: when he gets back I have to point out that
16:57:39 <ehird> 13:44 AnMaster: [-*- brainfuck -*-]
16:57:39 <ais523> also, I doubt it's evil in SmallTalk
16:57:40 <ehird> ↑ how is that invalid?
16:57:40 <lifthrasiir> ehird: inspection doesn't hurt encapsulation. inspection is very useful for debugging.
16:57:46 <ehird> yes, for debugging
16:57:49 <ehird> but not for anything else
16:57:49 <ais523> ehird: I use * for run-length encoding
16:58:07 <ehird> AnMaster: ok mr "it is so annoying when you use multiple lines to say things"
16:58:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it has already been resolved
16:58:24 <ais523> I occasionally use multiple lines to say something, but mostly due to pressing return by mistake
16:58:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it spreads easily from you
16:58:42 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, soon you'll absorb all of my behavior and use me as an excuse
16:58:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> yes, for debugging <-- and that was the purpose
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16:58:54 <ehird> 'cept you're doing it far more often than I am, I haven't used multiple lines for about a week
16:58:56 <ais523> haha: Microsoft attempted to patent the iPod's user interface
16:59:00 <ais523> just before Apple tried
16:59:03 <ais523> as a result, neither of them succeeded
16:59:10 <ais523> yes, but I only just discovered it
16:59:14 <ais523> and it is rather funny
16:59:44 <ais523> it seems that Apple got the patent, or a similar one, eventually, though
17:02:28 <AnMaster> hm any better idea for a function called div that divides. div is a keyword in Erlang. To fit with a series of functions called add, sub, mul, mod
17:02:40 <ehird> along with add, subtract, multiply, modulo
17:03:19 <ehird> finally my logreading is over
17:03:41 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, keywords
17:03:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well I could quote it like 'div' and use that for a function name
17:04:24 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have to do
17:04:40 <ehird> then why is add a keyword
17:04:41 <ais523> div is probably integer divide, like in basic
17:04:43 <AnMaster> ehird, nor div usually. div is "integer division"
17:04:52 <ais523> and add isn't a keyword, it's anmaster's function name
17:04:52 <AnMaster> unlike / which results in floating point
17:05:04 * ehird writes a brainfuck interpreter in Plain English >:)
17:05:21 <ehird> thus proving the shittiest turing complete language yet
17:05:40 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a real plain english programming language
17:05:47 <ehird> I'm writing in that one.
17:05:49 <ehird> The osmosian shitfest.
17:06:02 <ehird> And it is called Plain English.
17:06:06 <ehird> https://www.osmosian.com/
17:06:21 <ehird> Nope, you were vague.
17:06:55 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> ehird, there is a real plain english programming language" <-- unlike that one you are talking about. If I had meant it I would have used "Plain English" not "plain english"
17:07:04 <AnMaster> though it should have been "plain English"
17:08:12 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: do you have any idea on expression canonicalization? <-- simply() would be the API I guess. Not sure about how to generate a representation for backend output
17:08:33 <ehird> Some code is a string. To interpret some code: ...
17:08:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I guess I could shell out to a CAS to simplify :P Like maxima
17:09:01 <AnMaster> but that would be a horrible way
17:09:06 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: should just tree walking be sufficient?
17:09:17 <ehird> ais523: someone just claimed that +[+] is a BF infinite loop..
17:09:21 <ehird> maybe they mean bignums
17:09:37 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, probably, but I was going to make representation internal to the polynom module.
17:09:51 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so maybe it needs a walk function that the backends call
17:09:53 <ehird> "a string thing is a thing with a string." —the noodle
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17:10:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the internal representation would also contain stuff like dependencies
17:10:25 <AnMaster> to simplify other analysis passes
17:11:35 <lifthrasiir> actually esotope-bfc takes much time for recalculating the derived information (like referenced cells) again and again.
17:11:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, ah I store that when possible
17:12:02 <lifthrasiir> that's only one room for improvement. (sigh)
17:12:05 <ehird> [["If the government tells us as Chinese citizens we should not know about something and shouldn't be searching material, we should be responsible and obey," Hou said.]]
17:12:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I have plenty of TODO too
17:12:47 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, from some causal looking at generated outputs, bfc does better sometimes, and ib at other times.
17:12:51 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: since ComplexNode is derived from python builtin list, it cannot determine when those informations are invalidated. so it cannot cache them.
17:13:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, for me it is just a dict that is stored in the node metadata
17:13:24 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: well it is not impossible, but too much work.
17:14:25 <ehird> [[ if the rider's token is not "if", abort with "It's 'Decide IF.' We always say, 'Decide IF'. Got it?" and the rider; exit.]]
17:14:29 * ais523 vaguely wonders why a thunderstorm forces AnMaster to shut down
17:14:41 <lifthrasiir> iirc python list has dozens of methods possibly can manipulate the list, or not.
17:15:21 <lifthrasiir> even if we can track them, mutable object will be another source of pain
17:15:23 <ehird> ais523: in case he loses data!11
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17:21:28 <ehird> i can't figure out how to get the first char of a string in plain english
17:21:53 <lifthrasiir> ehird: "Plain English" as a programming language?
17:22:02 <ehird> lifthrasiir: a truly awful one
17:22:04 <ehird> https://www.osmosian.com/
17:22:11 <ehird> click What Our Customers Could Be Saying
17:22:22 <ehird> they charge $100 for it but the file was on a URL unprotected
17:22:27 <lifthrasiir> yes i know. i was just to decide what type it is.
17:22:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: it's serious, but terrible
17:22:48 <ehird> it looks about as much like english as applescript
17:23:10 <ehird> [[ var calfilelocation="cal-3037.zip"; ]]
17:23:18 <ehird> the purchase page requires a purchase before redirecting
17:23:24 <ehird> but the upgrade page redirects clientside
17:23:34 <ehird> filelocation=calfilelocation;
17:23:40 <ehird> purchase does it too
17:27:51 <ehird> [[to append a string to another string (handling email transparency):]]
17:27:56 <ehird> ais523: do you have any idea wtf that means?
17:28:55 <ehird> good, I don't either
17:30:34 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out).
17:31:44 <ehird> play the cluck sound.
17:31:46 <ehird> the cluck sound is a wave equal to $524946463A02000057415645666D74201200000001000100401F0000401F000001000800000066616374040000000702000064617461070200007F7F807F7F807F7F808080807F807F7F80817F81817E7E827E7D847C79877D5F6D99B2A25D608269A5979869667F7D8D738C7D8C5E7E878F767A75868D84797278829A7D7E857A73929271657492907D7E7D787E8B887C758388827E817F7C7B89897C7A7E84838183827E7A8488877D7E8181808484817C7F84838181807E7F8283807E8081808182807F7F81818081807F7F808181808080
17:31:51 <ehird> 7F7F808180807F80808080807F8080807F8080808080807F7F7F7F7F8080807F7F7F7C7B8182817C7B7D7E8082807D7D7C7F8281807F7C7D808082807E7E7E7D7E807D7B7C7B7D7D7B7A7979797875727269797A490F4571FFF4FF0C001297FBF492525BB0F5B26A001C69BEE5BA76476F9EBD953C3757BAC9BB705C7F9AA883645D7897AA9B806977959588696976999B83766F828C907F7375828E91877B757D868B837A757C858D8880787B8187847B7A7D8788807B79808486817D7C7F8384817D7C7F8484817B7B7D83847F7C7B7E8182827D7C7C8082817D7C7D7F81807F7D7D7F82
17:31:56 <ehird> 817F7B7B7E8081807E7D7D7F80807E7D7D7E80807E7D7D7E7F807F7D7D7E7F807F7E7D7E7E80807F7E7D7E80807F7E7E7E7F7F7E7E7E7F7F7F7F7E7E7F7F807F7F7E7E7E7F8080807E7E7E80807F7E7E7F8081807F7F7E7F7F80807F7E7F8081807F7E7E7E80808080807F807F7F7F7F7F7F7F80808080807F7F7F808080807F80808180807F80808100.
17:32:02 <ehird> that's in the standard goddamn library
17:40:54 <ehird> they use "say" for return
17:43:21 <ehird> Routines of this kind are called "deciders", and they
17:43:21 <ehird> always start with the words TO DECIDE IF. If you've had the misfortune of
17:43:22 <ehird> programming in a less natural language, and you can't help yourself, you can
17:43:24 <ehird> think of deciders as boolean functions.
17:47:33 <fizzie> cluck.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 8 bit, mono 8000 Hz. Well, I guess the 52494646 and 57415645 parts were quite a giveaway.
17:48:06 <ehird> What a stupid thing to have in (a) the standard library, (b) as a literal
17:48:11 <ehird> fizzie: what does it sound like?
17:48:25 <ehird> oh the cluck sound?
17:48:28 <ehird> that thign is annoying
17:48:47 <fizzie> I don't know what it is; it sounds like http://zem.fi/~fis/cluck.wav
17:48:50 <ehird> Some code is a string.
17:48:51 <ehird> To interpret some code:
17:48:53 <ehird> If the code's first target is the plus byte, exit.
17:48:59 <ehird> Interpret ",[.,]".
17:49:02 <ehird> fizzie: yep that's the cluck sound from the editor
17:49:48 <ehird> Annoyingly, Plain English uses manual memory management... EXCEPT for strings.
17:49:56 <ehird> So I might represent the tape as a string
18:22:59 <ehird> there's an msn-owned site
18:23:00 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:23:03 <ehird> advocating an illegal windows-based product
18:31:19 <ehird> wow again, there's an Itanium windows xp
18:32:33 <pikhq> Why, yes. Windows decided once again to support another architecture.
18:34:31 <ais523> apparently Linus used to claim that Linux was unlikely to be supported on anything but the 386, as he'd written it in order to learn the weird corner cases of 386 assembly
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18:34:59 <pikhq> Yes, and it got a lot of reworking to support a second architecture.
18:35:07 <pikhq> From there, it wasn't too hard to port. ;)
18:35:45 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder why one would run Windows on Itanium, though.
18:36:02 <pikhq> It loses the main benefit of Windows; namely, your already-obtained programs work.
18:37:09 <ehird> pikhq: ENTERPRISE SERVER DEPLOYMENTS
18:37:47 <pikhq> ehird: Make that "programs you wish to run work".
18:38:11 <ehird> It's not windows therefore it is not suitable for enterprise deployment
18:38:12 <pikhq> I highly doubt that anything Windows-only works on Itanium, aside from its x86 emulation stuff.
18:38:16 <ehird> Therefore we must use Windows
18:38:25 <pikhq> Ah, right. That mindset.
18:38:35 <pikhq> The one that doesn't care that it's dumb.
18:41:53 <ehird> pikhq: Also, existing programs arguably aren't a good reason to use Windows any more: Parallels Desktop for the Mac, for instance, can run Windows programs *under the OS X windowing system*.
18:42:16 <ehird> So apart from the whole god-Windows-programs-are-ugly thing, and it being a little slower than regular, you don't need to use Windows to use Windows programs perfectly.
18:42:27 <pikhq> Virtual Box does the same on Linux.
18:42:49 <ais523> and you can get virtualised Win XP with the more expensive versions of Win 7
18:42:53 <ehird> pikhq: Does it, thoug?
18:42:59 <ehird> Doesn't it put everything in one window?
18:43:17 <GregorR-L> ehird: Yup, it's just a window with holes in it.
18:43:19 <pikhq> ehird: It's started doing a seamless desktop mode.
18:43:28 <GregorR-L> pikhq: But that's just one window with holes in it.
18:43:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: Window with holes... isn't that what we're talking about?
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18:43:41 <ehird> I made a joke about windows
18:43:44 <ehird> That's funny, see.
18:43:57 <GregorR-L> IF YOU DECREE THAT IT'S FUNNY THEN IT IS
18:44:26 <GregorR-L> Mind you, it still looks nifty for 1/4 of a second, which is why that feature exists.
18:44:45 <ehird> Parallels integrates quite a bit further, anyway - total filesystem mapping, OS X programs as Windows ones and vise-veras, etc.
18:44:50 <pikhq> Seems that VirtualBox is working on improving that feature.
18:44:52 <ehird> (Windows go in the taskbar, ...)
18:45:16 <pikhq> And 3D stuff, too.
18:45:27 <ehird> Yeah. You don't want to run a modern game on it, though.
18:45:46 <pikhq> I don't want to run a modern game on my system, anyways.
18:45:57 <ehird> pikhq: I mean anything after 1999.
18:46:34 * ehird puts Opera on the Windows VM; Firefox is a bit too much for it.
18:46:36 <pikhq> Even with it using the recent virtualisation stuff?
18:46:45 <ehird> pikhq: Well, maybe.
18:46:51 <ehird> It's still not nearly as fast as a native thingy.
18:46:56 <ehird> Runs W:A just fine, though.
18:47:14 <pikhq> So, Parallels doesn't compare too well to Xen. :p
18:47:42 <ehird> pikhq: Xen isn't a nicely-integrated desktop interface to Windows.
18:47:45 <pikhq> (granted, anything IO-based in Xen is fucked, and Xen doesn't do 3d...)
18:48:15 <pikhq> Yeah, Xen is just crazy-good virtualisation. ... And not much else.
18:48:46 * ehird reads about how sand is turned into silicon for semiconductor chips by making it visit the sauna.
18:49:06 <ehird> (It's true enough.)
18:52:01 <ehird> It's a miracle chips actually work.
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19:14:51 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
19:14:52 <oerjan> 07:14:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, removing dead loops happen way later than parsing
19:15:09 <oerjan> ok forget that, i managed to read that exactly backwards :D
19:15:17 <GregorR-L> I usually read dead loops before parsing.
19:15:51 <oerjan> oh AnMaster is not here
19:17:18 <oerjan> <AnMaster> [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[- <-- this looks really strange
19:17:37 <oerjan> actually that's a perfectly reasonable way to translate a switch/case statement...
19:18:50 * oerjan realizes the <-- convention doesn't look good when requoted
19:20:11 <oerjan> i could have added another at the end, but copying from the logs tends to include the final newline for me, even when i don't want it :(
19:21:06 <oerjan> as long as it isn't a laptoptop kitty
19:21:08 <GregorR-L> Well, she's more "in" my lap than "on" my lap :P
19:21:53 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I've got a pussy between my legs.
19:23:04 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
19:23:35 <oerjan> Corun: the categorical dual of a run
19:35:50 <oerjan> 08:21:50 <ais523> the traditional LR(1) method would be to look at the next char, if it's an integer than parse it as an integer, otherwise just pass it back to parse_binary
19:36:16 <oerjan> technically treating +* as + then * if not followed by an integer is at least LR(2)
19:36:33 <ais523> oerjan: except I treat +* as +, then * as "repeat last command more times"
19:36:39 <ais523> that would break on *0, but not otherwise
19:36:51 <ais523> and I think leaves the grammar LR(0)
19:36:56 <ehird> ais523: that's not context-free
19:37:04 <ehird> * depends on its previous command for context
19:37:12 <ais523> yes, but it depends only on previous
19:37:15 <ais523> so no lookahead is needed
19:37:25 <oerjan> ehird: that's not enough for non-context-free
19:38:07 <oerjan> of course an elegant workaround is to say * without following integer = *1
19:38:34 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
19:38:53 * oerjan swats ehird in an elegant way -----###
19:39:49 <ehird> elegant, kludgy, what's the difference.
19:40:50 <Slereah_> http://www.underfoule.net/b/src/124300263346.jpg
19:42:07 <ehird> Slereah_: SICP? What a useless piece of shit; haven't they ever heard of Plain English?
19:42:11 <ehird> I'm part of the Osmosian order you know!
19:43:45 <ehird> No, we're just enlightened.
19:44:21 <Slereah_> I wonder what that guy does in life
19:44:24 <oerjan> Slereah_: they have to go around carrying lamps all the time
19:44:28 <Slereah_> Is he trying to sell his product?
19:44:35 <ehird> The Grand Negus said on 01/11/07 23:29:22
19:44:35 <ehird> By the way, the Plain English Compiler is written entirely in Plain English and can recompile itself - with all of its development tools - in less than 3 seconds on a bottom-of-the-line Dell.
19:44:38 <ehird> He is a grand negro or something
19:44:56 <ehird> Slereah_: [[Adam R: Write me (help@osmosian.com) and I'll show you how Plain English can recompile itself. No cost or obligation. It's not quite like writing PHP5 in PHP5; it's like writing PHP5 using PHP4. ]]
19:45:03 <ehird> Helping people without getting money??!?!!
19:45:05 <oerjan> if he was a negro, wouldn't he using Plain Ebonics?
19:45:15 <ais523> Plain English is a language, right?
19:45:20 <ais523> which looks a lot like real english?
19:45:22 <ehird> oerjan: he's hooked on phonics
19:45:27 <ehird> ais523: for some values of a lot
19:45:35 <ehird> and their site says that bill gates is sad he didn't come up with it
19:45:38 <ehird> chomsky too for some reason
19:45:44 <ehird> except they use JS
19:45:49 <ehird> so you can just pilfer the download URL out of the page source.
19:45:56 <ais523> ok, that's rather ridiculous
19:46:09 <Slereah_> Only the tip of the iceberg, ais523
19:46:11 <ehird> ais523: the manual also sexually harasses you
19:46:15 <ehird> and keeps calling windows/intel a whore and a kludge
19:46:23 <ehird> and has its own terrible handwriting-esque font
19:46:28 <ehird> also, their website is all gifs with holes for form fields
19:46:32 <oerjan> so, it's most likely a joke, right?
19:46:33 <ehird> clicking on a "link" uses js to change the gif location
19:46:39 <ehird> it's absolutely serious, I'm afraid
19:46:44 <ehird> and the ~10,000 lines of code actually work
19:46:45 <fizzie> I acquired a laptop cat too. It's very sharp.
19:46:47 <ehird> and it can actually compile itself
19:46:50 <ehird> (in less than 3 seconds!!!12512)
19:46:58 <oerjan> i guess it's a little elaborate for a joke
19:47:18 <ehird> i'm afraid it's not a joke in any form
19:47:42 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/Cal.jpg
19:47:48 <oerjan> then you may be forgotting the joke on the author
19:47:49 <ehird> Slereah_: That also.
19:47:52 <Slereah_> Would you like to use this, or kludgy old windows?
19:48:02 <ehird> oerjan: it's not a joke, honestly
19:48:07 <ehird> I've researched this indepthly
19:48:27 <oerjan> ehird: doesn't joke on the author mean what i think it does?
19:48:36 <ehird> you just worded it oddly
19:48:49 <fizzie> Misread "you just whored it oddly".
19:49:18 <ehird> fizzie: the manual actually talks about the gui's fullscreenness as liberating you from the kludge
19:49:42 <ehird> Regarding the "bootstrapping compiler" you mentioned, I'm afraid it is now lost in the annals of programming history. It was a Pascal-like language of our own design and was implemented using a very tiny subset of Borland's Delphi. We employed it briefly to produce the extremely minimal CAL-1000 (our first Plain English development system) and then immediately abandoned it. At that point we took the Osmosian Oath ("I promise never to program in any langu
19:49:44 <ehird> age but my own" and used the CAL-1000 to develop the more robust CAL-1001, entirely in English. The CAL-1001, in turn, was used to produce the more capable CAL-1002, again in English, and so forth, all the way up to the fully functional CAL-3037, which we released as a commercial product. It's successor, the CAL-3040, is currently in testing.
19:49:55 <oerjan> fizzie: so what you are saying is that you need to get laid?
19:49:55 <ehird> A NEW PLAIN ENGLISH COMPILER!!!!11
19:49:59 <ehird> also, I like how they threw away the bootstrap compiler
19:50:11 <ehird> and I like how they made a language compiler to make their language compiler
19:50:16 <ehird> A NEW CAL RELEASE! Slereah_!
19:50:18 <ehird> We can pay like $100 again!
19:50:28 <ehird> [[But the really interesting work is about to begin as we enter Phase II of our project and use the the last of the CAL-series compilers to create the initial incarnation of our "apparently intelligent"(tm) machine, the PAL-1000. ]]
19:50:36 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha or Singularity?
19:50:50 <ehird> ais523: (this is a comment on 99-bottles-of-beer.net, lol)
19:51:42 <pikhq> I sure hope this is a joke.
19:51:49 <ehird> pikhq: it's not, goddamn
19:51:52 <pikhq> I'm afraid it isn't, though.
19:52:07 <pikhq> That should be "wish this were"
19:52:10 <ehird> When we recently launched our website, www.osmosian.com, it was
19:52:10 <ehird> classified by Jack Klein as "hideous" and "abusive", and by Randy
19:52:10 <Slereah_> They turned a perhaps somehow interesting language into a giant insane joke
19:52:11 <ehird> Howard as something that "looks like crap".
19:52:13 <ehird> Others, however, said it was "nice and simple", "quite pretty", and a
19:52:15 <ehird> "very slick" implementation of the AJAX philosophy.
19:52:17 <ehird> We're confused. Can a woman be both unbearably ugly and delightfully
19:52:19 <ehird> pretty at once? Of course not. So how can a web site be so?
19:52:21 <ehird> —help@osmosian.com in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design
19:52:23 <ehird> They are, unfortunately, not aware of subjectivity, it seems.
19:52:25 <ehird> It'd explain their strong language.
19:52:56 <ehird> Note that in those 60 lines,
19:52:56 <ehird> support for the Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down keys is included.
19:53:01 <ehird> Slereah_: Their sight has KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS.
19:53:18 <Slereah_> You mean like if you press F5?
19:53:24 <ehird> [[>That old kind of image map is not done in a way that is accessible.
19:53:24 <ehird> What do you mean by "accessible"?]]
19:53:28 <ehird> WHAT IS BLIND PEOPLES
19:53:33 <ehird> Slereah_: try home/end/pgup/pgdown
19:53:51 <Slereah_> Do I really have to go back on that page?
19:53:58 <ehird> [[Any good book or web tutorial on Perl+CGI or PHP should give you
19:53:58 <ehird> the information you need.]]
19:54:06 <ehird> Now they're gonna get a taste of Plain English.
19:54:17 <Slereah_> You know what I think, every time I see their picture of Noam Chomsky?
19:54:28 <Slereah_> I think he looks like Malcolm Corley from Full Throttle.
19:54:51 <ehird> You may have a point there.
19:55:43 <Slereah_> I wonder if I could like do a program that I might do at werk on Osmosian
19:55:51 <Slereah_> Like a model of physics and shit
19:55:57 <ehird> Slereah_: THE UNIVERSE IS AN ALGORITHM NOT A FORMULA
19:56:09 <ehird> That's why you can't do exponentiation
19:56:13 <ehird> Multiplication was enough for Jesus
19:56:37 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
19:56:52 <ehird> Slereah_: You can't even do 2+2
19:56:54 <ehird> It has to be "2 plus 2"
19:56:57 <Corun> SOMEONE SAID MY NAME.
19:57:03 <Corun> But this client has not much log
19:57:13 <ehird> Corun: 19:23 oerjan: Corun: the categorical dual of a run
19:57:27 <fizzie> fungot: Would you prefer to be written in PLAIN ENGRISH?
19:57:27 <fungot> fizzie: the details of these routines is to set the top of consecutive ram: ffcf ( hex) 65520 ( decimal). normally, when it reaches a non-ram address ( and leaving lis- tener(s) active on the screen, and
19:58:38 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
19:59:43 <pikhq> You know what's great about CAL? I wouldn't be surprised if someone did Trusting Trust on it.
19:59:51 <ehird> Slereah_: Did you read their docs as the pdf?
19:59:56 <ehird> Read the non-pdf version with CAL!
20:00:19 <pikhq> Inline assembled x86 machine code just screams 'Trusting trust'.
20:00:34 <ehird> Slereah_: WHAT THE FUCK. Go to cal-3037\lexicon\lexicon
20:00:42 <ehird> It's a bloody list of words
20:00:47 <ehird> Does it reject other ones or something?
20:00:50 <ehird> To force you to use PLAIN ENGLISH?
20:02:20 <ehird> - Since we can't know how big the window is, let's pick a minimum and
20:02:22 <ehird> - Let's guarantee the font by using anti-aliased pictures of it.
20:02:24 <ehird> - Let's guarantee the size and placement of text by using only pictures
20:02:28 <ehird> - Let's guarantee the colors by making them part of the pictures.
20:02:30 <ehird> STOP MAKING WEBSITES
20:03:31 <pikhq> ehird: The lexicon is used by the editor's spell checker.
20:03:58 <fizzie> Hey, what a coincidenciey; I just came across another text-in-image "website"; http://tzoot.com/
20:04:19 <ehird> fizzie: "frakking hot project integrating Twitter" KILL KILL KILL
20:04:23 <ehird> DEATH MODE ACTIVATED
20:04:27 <ehird> ALL SYSTEMS OVERRIDDEN
20:04:28 <fizzie> The job offer there was posted to the university's internal newsgroupsies.
20:04:30 <ehird> BOOKING PLANE TO FINLAN
20:05:10 <fizzie> To make a link in their fancy text-as-a-picture system, they've resorted to an image-map. Heh.
20:06:54 <ehird> pikhq: I feel like I need to praise some tiny part of CAL so that the rest of my criticisms stand out even more.
20:07:13 <ehird> The filesystem explorer thing works quite nicely, even though it has no fucking place whatsoever in it.
20:08:52 <pikhq> That compiler is pretty bad.
20:09:10 <pikhq> Sticking it in 'Plain English' doesn't help my understanding of it!
20:09:22 <ehird> pikhq: [[ append "intel $50. " to the routine's body string. \ push eax]]
20:09:31 <ehird> They just replace all the commands with the intel command, then compile THAT>
20:09:34 <ehird> No intermediate forms.
20:09:39 <ehird> Just changing strings into inline machine code.
20:09:49 <pikhq> Especially since there's hardly any commenting.
20:10:19 <pikhq> And they've got the nerve to call this the most advanced compiler around today.
20:10:33 <pikhq> I've written more sophisticated compilers in Brainfuck. ;)
20:10:55 <ais523> inline asm in plain english, how brillian
20:11:06 <pikhq> And PEBBLE is significantly more sophisticated...
20:11:11 <ehird> to pluralize a string: \ nouns only
20:11:11 <ehird> if the string is "alumnus", put "alumni" into the string; exit.
20:11:12 <pikhq> It does dead-code optimisation.
20:11:12 <ehird> if the string is "auto", put "autos" into the string; exit.
20:11:14 <ehird> if the string is "cello", put "cellos" into the string; exit.
20:11:51 <ehird> But OUR website is OUR brochure for OUR product.
20:11:51 <ehird> WE should be able to determine what OUR brochure looks like.
20:11:52 <ehird> —help@osmosian.com
20:11:57 <ehird> The Web. You do not understand it.
20:12:15 <Slereah_> I wonder, what does CAL mean anyway?*
20:12:43 <ehird> Compile Aur Language?
20:13:00 <ehird> [[The web was designed as a unix-like file transfer
20:13:00 <ehird> utility, and nothing more. ]]
20:13:02 <pikhq> Also, PEBBLE 1.0 comes in at 74,787 lines of code...
20:13:05 <ehird> I'm sure Tim Berners-Lee would not agree.
20:13:16 <ehird> How did you make it that big
20:13:28 <pikhq> ehird: Most of that is in the macro system.
20:13:40 <ehird> You can implement a great Scheme in like 5k lines.
20:13:42 <pikhq> And most of *that* is in the macros for Brainfuck constants.
20:13:45 <oerjan> <ehird> finally my logreading is over
20:13:51 <ehird> 74k lines = nuclear reactor control system.
20:13:55 <oerjan> lucky bastard, i still have nearly half left
20:14:30 <pikhq> ... That was the number of characters.
20:14:37 <ehird> [[Site Visits: 712
20:14:38 <ehird> Sample Program Downloads: 242
20:14:41 <pikhq> And I missed most of the macros.
20:14:41 <ehird> Actual, unsolicited user comment: "a minor work of genius"]]
20:14:45 <ehird> I'm sure you didn't make that one up, mr bill gates.
20:14:48 <ehird> pikhq: How many lines?
20:14:54 <pikhq> 14,434 LOC, 225033 characters.
20:15:00 <ehird> 14k is more reasonable for a huge stdlib.
20:15:28 <Slereah_> I will now try something I never tried before
20:15:34 <pikhq> And I've got 3 versions of some parts of the stdlib. Seems reasonable.
20:15:54 <ehird> Slereah_: You have to make a new directory
20:15:58 <ehird> Then Ctrl-C the noodle, enter it, C-v it
20:16:02 <ehird> then make a new file named anything
20:16:05 <ehird> for your program code
20:16:09 <pikhq> 1,465 LOC if you just count the compiler proper.
20:16:17 <pikhq> (that is one freaking massive stdlib)
20:16:18 <ehird> Slereah_: Also, you can't just print stuff.
20:16:22 <ehird> You need to use the shit graphics library
20:16:26 <Slereah_> ehird : Can't I just work in the Cal directory?
20:16:37 <ehird> It'll compile to cal-3037.exe if you do that
20:16:40 <ehird> Thus destroying the compiler
20:16:58 <ehird> I'm going to make a program that calculates factorials in it
20:17:07 <pikhq> Last I checked, I've got just about every bit of the Brainfuck Algorithms page in it.
20:17:26 <pikhq> And some C-specific and interpreter-specific replacements.
20:17:48 <Slereah_> How do I... do anything in the GUI?
20:17:54 <pikhq> (the interpreter, being unsophisticated, benefits greatly from those replacements)
20:17:55 <Slereah_> I can't do shit apart from opening files
20:18:18 <ehird> Slereah_: Use the menus
20:18:27 <ehird> Slereah_: The letters at the top
20:18:30 <ehird> Yes, it's sorted alphabetically
20:18:40 <ehird> Slereah_: New directory, name it, ctrl-c after selecting the noodle,
20:18:43 <ehird> enter the directory, ctrl-v
20:18:47 <ehird> new file, name same as directory
20:19:17 <ehird> Slereah_: Because it compiles to directoryname.exe
20:19:25 <ehird> So presumably you want your source to be named the same without .exe
20:19:33 <ehird> Also I'm not sure how you return a value
20:19:38 <ehird> "say yes/no" seems to just be for booleans
20:19:49 <ehird> Maybe you take another parameter
20:19:51 <ehird> ais523: prolog style!
20:20:10 <ais523> well, most languages you can express prolog-style passing, it just isn't idiomatic
20:20:18 <ehird> it modifies the parameter
20:20:47 <ehird> "if the number is less than 2, say 1; exit."
20:21:07 <Slereah_> Now what do I do, do I follow orders from the tutorial?
20:21:28 <ehird> I'm not sure how to have more than one variable of the same type in a procedure
20:21:55 <Sgeo> What are we tralking about?
20:22:15 <ehird> Sgeo: Plain English!
20:22:47 <Slereah_> Well, I did the two line program
20:23:14 <ehird> [[to calculate the factorial of a number:
20:23:14 <ehird> if the number is less than 2, say 1; exit.
20:23:15 <ehird> calculate the factorial of the number minus one.
20:23:17 <ehird> multiply the number with the factorial.]]
20:23:29 <Slereah_> Three lines, and it took 0.5 seconds to compile
20:24:05 <Slereah_> Well, they told me it wouldn't do anything, and it sure didn't
20:24:48 <ehird> "I don't know how to 'say [number]'"
20:24:53 <ehird> it only gave me that error when I actually called it
20:25:42 <Slereah_> I like how they say that you don't need to end up by ; and shit
20:25:48 <ehird> If the number is less than 2, the factorial is 1; exit. ← fails :(
20:25:48 <Slereah_> But you still need to punctuate
20:25:54 <ehird> Slereah_: ; becomes .
20:26:56 <ehird> Slereah_: You have to draw a background
20:26:58 <pikhq> Hmm. How many LOC is Cplof?
20:26:58 <ehird> and handle the refresh event
20:27:02 <ehird> and put the text on the screen
20:27:09 <ehird> Read the tutorial :P
20:27:23 <Slereah_> That sounds like something that would make everyone's lives easier!
20:27:58 <Slereah_> Why won't the tutorial go straight to the point, really?
20:27:59 <pikhq> 5,000 or so. Man, Osmosian is undense.
20:28:04 <Slereah_> Can"'t they just say "Here's a simple program, you can fuck around with it a bit"?
20:28:09 <ehird> Slereah_: It's totally engagin.
20:29:51 <ehird> Slereah_: I cannot figure out how to return a value from a function without just being implicit
20:29:59 <ehird> I get that, like, if you say multiply as the last thing, that's the result
20:30:03 <ehird> But how do I shot early result?
20:30:06 <Slereah_> I rage a lot because of the full screen GUI
20:30:16 <Slereah_> I have to press the windows key all the time to switch to the pdf
20:30:26 <ehird> Slereah_: Read it in the editor
20:30:31 <ehird> Just open instructions instead of instructions.pdf in it
20:30:36 <ehird> It's delightfully awful
20:31:23 <ehird> On CAL not running on Linux: "Sorry. It doesn't run on DOS or CP/M either."
20:31:34 <ehird> LINUX IS A COMMAND LINE BLACK AND WHITE
20:31:41 <ehird> ais523: the Plain English compiler
20:31:50 <ehird> and document viewer
20:31:52 <ehird> and word processor
20:31:59 <pikhq> Oddly enough, they've made it so that it's not hard to retarget.
20:32:04 <ehird> and no, you can't compile outside of it
20:32:23 <pikhq> ... Assuming you can deal with its handbuilt ASM.
20:32:37 <pikhq> It was bad when the Linux kernel devs did it, and it's still bad now!
20:34:08 <pikhq> (now, where did they have that, anyways?)
20:34:25 <Slereah_> I'm trying to compile stuff, but it asks me how do I compile background
20:34:45 <ehird> Slereah_: You have to write the subroutine
20:34:55 <pikhq> Slereah_: You need to bring the noodle over, as well.
20:35:09 <Slereah_> But the nüdle is in the same directory!
20:35:29 <ehird> you need to write your own subroutine
20:35:30 <ehird> for the background
20:35:47 <ehird> Slereah_: read the tutorial
20:35:48 <ehird> Now remember. I don't do nested ifs. I don't do nested loops. And I don't
20:35:49 <ehird> do objects, real numbers, equations, or any of the other menschenwerk that
20:35:51 <ehird> has inhibited the progress of the human race over the past 200 years. Talk
20:35:53 <ehird> to me like a NORMAL person, and we'll get along just fine.
20:35:59 <ehird> pikhq: equations and real numbers has inhibited the progress of the human race for 200 years
20:36:29 <pikhq> I could've sworn the reals were older.
20:36:43 <ehird> Oh awesome, they call ASCII the Windows-extended ASCII
20:36:55 <pikhq> The complex numbers might be about that old, but the reals are ancient.
20:37:06 <pikhq> ehird: ... That's because it is.
20:37:15 <ehird> pikhq: No, ASCII is ASCII.
20:37:18 <pikhq> Window's "ASCII" is a superset of ASCII that claims to be ASCII.
20:37:21 <ehird> ASCII != Windows-extended ASCII.
20:37:42 <ehird> My understanding of things around me became possible when my creators
20:37:42 <ehird> hard-wired six primitive data types into my brain. These six basic types are:
20:37:43 <ehird> BYTE, WYRD, NUMBER, POINTER, FLAG, and RECORD.
20:37:45 <ehird> Wyrds. My creators put wyrds in my brain because I can't talk to the kluge
20:37:47 <ehird> without them. They are 16 bits long and look to me like numbers from
20:37:49 <ehird> -32768 to +32767. The bits in each byte are stored left-to-right, but the
20:37:51 <ehird> bytes are stored backways. I don't like it that way, but the kluge insists.
20:37:51 <pikhq> The most egregious example is smart-quotes.
20:38:46 <ehird> pikhq: I like smart quotes, but Unicode ones.
20:38:48 <pikhq> It's especially annoying that this screws stuff up, since Windows doesn't even use ASCII any more.
20:38:49 <ehird> But I'm a typography geek.
20:39:07 <pikhq> ehird: If it were proper Unicode left and right quotes, then I'd have no problems.
20:39:19 <ehird> Pointers. Memory addresses are stored in 32-bit pointers, backways. They
20:39:19 <ehird> have the same range as numbers, but all the negatives belong to the kluge.
20:39:20 <ehird> Address 0 is invalid and is called NIL. You can VOID a pointer to make it NIL.
20:39:25 <ehird> This language is so tied to the kludge
20:39:31 <ehird> For something that claims to shield you from it
20:39:42 <ehird> Flags. They're 32 bits, but only the rightmost bit is used. Actually, it's eighth
20:39:42 <ehird> from the left, but you can think of it as rightmost.
20:39:43 <ais523> ehird: are you quoting from something?
20:39:45 <ehird> WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT
20:39:49 <ehird> ais523: The CAL manual.
20:39:55 <pikhq> U+201C and U+201D. Please, please.
20:39:58 <Slereah_> I'm searching for "extract", but it tells me nothing!
20:40:03 <pikhq> ais523: He's quoting the documentation.
20:40:09 <ais523> I don't get why wyrds at all
20:40:17 <ehird> ais523: Because it's ghetto
20:41:36 <Slereah_> Fine, let's do everything their way
20:41:36 <Slereah_> Do everything they say until it works
20:41:46 <ehird> Slereah_: It ignores the space when compiling
20:41:49 <ehird> I wonder if you can type
20:41:53 <ehird> Tocalculatethefactorialofanumber:
20:42:00 <ehird> I recognize these bytes as separators, of
20:42:01 <ehird> course, but otherwise do nothing with them.
20:42:49 <Slereah_> "My creators thought alphabetical was best, so they put a "Sort Definitions" command under "S"."
20:43:06 <ehird> it's so wonderfully illogical
20:43:09 <Slereah_> I want to shoot him with extreme prejudice
20:43:10 <ehird> also, where else would they put it?
20:43:31 <ehird> A "console" is a text-only, conversational interface. My noodle includes a
20:43:32 <ehird> default console that looks something like this in operation:
20:43:33 <ehird> The console can be activated at any time. It occupies the entire screen and
20:43:35 <ehird> uses the default font in the black color on the lighter gray background.I am the CAL-3037. What is your name?
20:43:40 <ehird> Good morning, Dr. Chandra. I'm ready for my first lesson.
20:43:42 <ehird> NO NEED FOR GUI CODE!!
20:43:46 <ehird> search for console in the manual
20:44:46 <Slereah_> "If you looked around in my noodle a few pages back, you know that just "starting up" on the kluge requires over 100 lines of the goofiest code ever seen by mortal man."
20:44:57 <Slereah_> Do you think I could kill someone with my mind if I hated him enough
20:46:01 <pikhq> "Goofiest code ever seen by mortal man."
20:46:18 <pikhq> Sounds like *someone* hasn't been doing a lot of x86_16 coding.
20:47:07 <Slereah_> I'm mostly kopipeing the tutorial examples, hoping it will work out in the end
20:47:12 <ehird> Slereah_: Just use the read/write things
20:47:25 <ehird> To run: Start up. Write "Hello!". Read a number. Write the number. Shut down.
20:48:44 <ehird> Where "something" represents a box, byte, color, flag, font, line, number,
20:48:45 <ehird> pair, pointer, ratio, spot, string, or wyrd. When they run the modified code,
20:48:46 <Slereah_> Is the main program always called "To run"?
20:48:47 <ehird> the kluge's ghastly message box appears with a clue inside.
20:48:50 <ehird> You can even use real windoze things!
20:51:22 <ehird> Slereah_: That's how the GUI works
20:51:24 <ehird> ALL programs look like that
20:51:29 <Slereah_> Let's try to make a fibonacci!
20:51:36 <ehird> Write "Enter a number.".
20:51:38 <ehird> Write "> " without advancing.
20:51:42 <ehird> Calculate the factorial of the number.
20:51:44 <ehird> Write "The factorial of " then the number then " is " then the factorial.
20:51:46 <ehird> Write "Press enter to exit.".
20:51:52 <ehird> Now I just need to make the calculator work.
20:51:54 <ehird> Slereah_: You can't, I think.
20:51:56 <ehird> There's no way just to return a constant.
20:52:13 <ehird> Slereah_: I've tried.
20:52:17 <ehird> "say 1" doesn't work
20:52:21 <ehird> "put 1 into the factorial" doesn't work
20:52:32 <pikhq> You'll have to implement a stack.
20:52:53 <ehird> It's probably possible I just don't know how to dooooo it
20:53:01 <lifthrasiir> ehird: are there other ways than "Shut down" to terminate the program?
20:53:55 <Slereah_> Is there any directory of functions in that piece of shit?
20:54:13 <ehird> Slereah_: Just noodle
20:54:14 <Slereah_> Like where are the basic definitions of functions?
20:54:21 <ehird> I have almost donnne it
20:54:25 <Slereah_> but noodle doesn't define primitives like loop
20:54:37 <pikhq> That's in the compiler.
20:55:03 <Slereah_> So much of the tutorial is devoted to GUI
20:55:10 <ehird> Yay it calculates factorials
20:55:21 <ehird> Naming the result the same as the variable all he time makes me rage
20:55:51 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:55:53 <ehird> I can't name them properly
20:56:02 <ehird> we're discussing an awful programming language
20:56:15 <ehird> impomatic: Haskell is awful?
20:56:20 <ehird> BEGONE, FOUL DEMON!
20:56:26 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:56:31 <ehird> ... no, not like that.
20:56:44 <ehird> oerjan: quick, bring the amulet of the unsafeCoerce!
20:56:52 <ehird> I verily did (impomatic :: forall a. a)
20:56:56 <ehird> And now we cannot retrieve his value!
20:57:16 <ehird> I fear it may be too late
20:57:23 <ehird> For this is what I see as his fate:
20:57:28 <ehird> The garbage collector will verily come,
20:57:41 <ehird> and from inside his cloak, the scythe will run-
20:57:48 <ehird> And, um, then he'll be freed.
20:58:18 <ehird> Yes. Let's try tthat again
20:58:21 <ehird> I fear it may be too late
20:58:24 <ehird> For this is what I see as his fate:
20:58:29 <ehird> The garbage collector will verily come
20:58:31 <Slereah_> I'm looking all over, it doesn't say shit
20:58:35 <ehird> and from inside his cloak, the scythe will run
20:58:39 <ehird> his blood down to the tiles
20:58:43 <ehird> And then his memory shall be reaped.
20:58:46 <ehird> Slereah_: Loop to repeat
20:59:13 <ehird> OK, I think I see my problem with my factorial thing.
20:59:18 <ehird> Plain English hates non-imperativeness.
20:59:38 <Slereah_> Saying LOOP is really plain English
20:59:48 <Slereah_> Can't he say "Do this until that?"
21:00:54 <ehird> pikhq: Rate my Haskell poetry from 0 to 11
21:01:01 <ehird> Although i's more garbage collector poetry, I guess.
21:01:10 <ehird> Actually -1 is an option too, since it's pretty awful
21:01:20 <pikhq> ehird: It goes up to 11.
21:01:21 <Slereah_> "Unlike neanderthal-era compilers, my rules for names are broad and flexible."
21:01:50 <pikhq> Slereah_: It's like Malbolge. Except worse.
21:02:03 <ehird> Slereah_: I figured out how to have two variables of the same type
21:02:11 <ehird> Give a name to the other one, and make a type:
21:02:17 <ehird> A the-name is a the-type.
21:04:36 <Slereah_> Oh god, I miss the equal sign so much :(
21:05:00 <ais523> and people /pay/ for this?
21:05:21 <Slereah_> Someone should make a tutorial written in non-stupidese
21:06:13 <ehird> If you find a bug in me, write my creators and they will send you something
21:06:13 <ehird> desirable like a blank t-shirt. If you can figure out how to make me simpler
21:06:14 <ehird> without making me slower, they will send you a monogrammed t-shirt. And If
21:06:16 <ehird> you can come up with a way to make me smaller, faster, and more powerful all
21:06:18 <ehird> at once, I'm pretty sure they will send you an embroidered wife-beater.
21:06:20 <ehird> ais523: do you want an embroidered wife-beater?
21:06:39 <ais523> ehird: not particularly
21:07:22 <Slereah_> You can't terminate an infinite loop with ctrl+z
21:07:29 <ehird> Slereah_: Tab to cal and use stop
21:07:30 <ehird> "Put the mouse's spot into another spot."
21:07:34 <ehird> You just need to say another!
21:07:40 <ehird> That's TWO WHOLE VARIABLES OF THE SAME TYPE
21:08:15 <ehird> "Multiply the number by the other number."
21:11:59 <Slereah_> How the fuck is a variable defined?
21:12:18 <Slereah_> I tried "number2 is a number", but when I do "put 1 into a number2", it tells me no
21:12:19 <ehird> You can sort of name them
21:12:25 <ehird> Search for local variables
21:12:51 <ehird> go to the names page
21:14:27 <ehird> I almost have it working
21:14:30 <Slereah_> How would I go on to define two number variables?
21:14:40 <Slereah_> I did Put 0 into a number, which works okay
21:14:42 <ehird> Read the names chapter and shit
21:15:03 <ehird> Aw man it's almost working
21:15:10 <ehird> To calculate the factorial of a number:
21:15:10 <ehird> Put the number into an original number.
21:15:13 <ehird> Put a counter plus 2 into a multiplier number.
21:15:15 <ehird> If the multiplier is past the original number, exit.
21:15:17 <ehird> Multiply the number by the multiplier.
21:16:14 <ehird> you have to check whether the counter is past a number
21:16:26 <ehird> Slereah_: "The foo is a number."
21:16:33 <ehird> might not work locally
21:17:41 <Slereah_> IT CAN'T DEAL WITH BIG NUMBERS
21:17:51 <ehird> Slereah_: show your code?
21:18:10 <Slereah_> Fibo the number and the other number.
21:18:18 <Slereah_> To Fibo a number and another number :
21:18:22 <Slereah_> Put the number plus the other number into a nigger number.
21:18:24 <Slereah_> Put the other number into the number.
21:18:26 <Slereah_> Put the nigger number into the other number.
21:19:45 <pikhq> It is probably also a tarpit.
21:19:54 <Slereah_> but god is that variable naming frustrating
21:20:16 <ehird> pikhq: is it tc though?
21:20:22 <ehird> no way to get an unbounded array
21:20:24 <Slereah_> I wonder what would be the simplest way of implementing TCness on it
21:20:25 <ehird> it thinks in pointers and shit
21:20:35 <ehird> strings are an implementation detail
21:20:38 <ehird> you could have infinite strings, theoretically
21:20:51 <pikhq> ehird, you could have infinite variables.
21:20:53 <Slereah_> Also can't you just do functions?
21:20:55 <pikhq> Treat it as a register machine.
21:21:01 <ehird> pikhq: you can't have infinite variables
21:21:03 <ehird> no way to declare them
21:21:07 <ehird> the set of variables is static at compile time
21:21:32 <pikhq> I think the best you could do is rely on strings, then.
21:21:45 <pikhq> Assuming there's a way to use it as a tape.
21:22:08 <ehird> pikhq: If a counter is greater than 10
21:22:10 <ehird> doesn't increment counter
21:22:13 <ehird> If a counter is past 10
21:22:14 <Slereah_> Why not just do it functional, though
21:22:20 <ehird> Slereah_: no higher order functions
21:22:42 <pikhq> This is a tarpit, and not necessarily a Turing one.
21:22:51 <pikhq> It might actually just be a FSA tarpit.
21:23:38 <Slereah_> I look for array in the instructions, it only has strings, yeah D:
21:23:46 <ehird> pikhq: you can call out to DLLs
21:24:26 <pikhq> Slereah_: If it can access arbitrary values in a string, it is barely TC.
21:24:27 <ehird> Slereah_: My program calculates the first 10 factorials
21:24:40 <pikhq> Like, say, using two strings to implement a stack.
21:24:46 <pikhq> A couple of stacks, rather.
21:24:50 <Slereah_> It can "INSERT something INTO a STRING before a byte#.
21:25:00 <Slereah_> Let's see if I can do some boolfuck on this shit
21:25:40 <ehird> pikhq: Slereah_: Here is my wonderful factorial program: http://pastie.org/486839.txt?key=6qdilffgbgw9dbwe6npuda
21:25:52 <ehird> It, of course, does not use bignums. Oh well. Works for the first 10 factorials.
21:26:24 <ehird> Sometimes, however, you want
21:26:24 <ehird> to change a parameter without letting your caller know. In this case, you can:
21:26:25 <ehird> PRIVATIZE a parameter.
21:26:27 <ehird> And I will make a copy of the parameter for you. But I will leave the name
21:26:29 <ehird> the same, so you don't get confused. I'll also put the word "original" on the
21:26:31 <ehird> front of the real parameter's name so you can still get to it, if you need to.
21:26:35 <ehird> I wanted that before
21:26:37 <ehird> It's all special cases and mirrors
21:27:49 <ehird> Slereah_: I have a challenge for you
21:28:34 <ehird> Slereah_: Make a mathematica-like system in plain english. >:))))))))))))))))
21:29:31 <ehird> Slereah_: >:((((((((((((
21:29:41 <Slereah_> I'm having enough difficulty understainding their string thing, it's barely explained
21:30:45 <ehird> Slereah_: Lol, its number type runs out after 12!
21:31:06 <ehird> Slereah_: Also, use a rider
21:31:10 <ehird> It's their parser shit
21:31:13 <ehird> you SLAP a rider ON a string
21:31:18 <ehird> search for it in the peedy eff
21:31:23 <ehird> or the non-peedy eff
21:31:27 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah i know
21:31:37 <ehird> Deewiant: for such hostile people to the wintel kludge they sure use it a lot
21:31:49 <Slereah_> "I set the first and the last of the substring to span the entire string. This allows you to work your way through the string forward or backward by adding to the first or subtracting from the last."
21:31:52 <ehird> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:31:54 <ehird> A "function" is a routine that extracts, calculates, or otherwise derives a
21:31:54 <Slereah_> I'm still not sure what it means
21:31:55 <ehird> value from a passed parameter. Function headers take this form:
21:31:57 <ehird> TO PUT something 'S something INTO a temporary variable:
21:32:07 <ehird> To put a number's factorial into a result:
21:33:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:33:35 <Slereah_> How do you deal with the position in a string?
21:35:43 <Slereah_> Well, I can remove the first letter of a string, that's easy enough
21:36:06 <Slereah_> I think this might be useful, but I don't know what it means : FILL a string WITH a byte GIVEN a count.
21:37:54 <Slereah_> Why can't I just input a character?
21:38:04 <ehird> I found out how to make functions
21:38:08 <ehird> that don't change the input variable
21:38:25 <ehird> TO PUT variable's thing INTO variable:
21:38:26 <ehird> Slereah_: http://pastie.org/486853.txt?key=2m1egetuar81rujxpg7blq
21:38:37 <ehird> my factorial program written with the factorial procedure separate
21:38:54 <ehird> I'm becoming quite a dab hand at this.
21:39:56 <Slereah_> intel $8B8508000000. \ mov eax,[ebp+8] \ the byte
21:39:56 <Slereah_> intel $660FB600. \ movzx eax,byte ptr [eax]
21:39:56 <Slereah_> intel $8B9D0C000000. \ mov ebx,[ebp+12] \ the wyrd
21:39:59 <ehird> You can also make your computer talk, with the kluge's thirty-nine esoteric
21:39:59 <ehird> "speech manager" functions, or these three simple statements:
21:40:02 <ehird> SAY a string AND WAIT.
21:40:04 <ehird> WAIT UNTIL SPEAKING IS DONE.
21:40:06 <ehird> Slereah_: That's not relevant
21:40:21 <ehird> haha the speaking thing works
21:40:52 <ehird> 1 factorial equals wun
21:41:03 <Slereah_> Oh god, my computer just said nigger
21:42:09 <ehird> Furthermore, you can concatenate strings with strings — and other kinds of
21:42:09 <ehird> data — using the infix THEN operator. See the topic on "Expressions" for a
21:42:10 <ehird> description of the clever way my creators implemented this.
21:42:12 <ehird> Slereah_: I use that in my thing
21:42:16 <ehird> the string then "butt"
21:42:28 <ehird> Slereah_: use riders
21:43:13 <ehird> A tick is approximately 1 millisecond. "The system's tick count" is the number
21:43:13 <ehird> of milliseconds since the last restart. It wraps around every 24.8 days or so.
21:43:14 <ehird> What happens then is unknown, since no kluge has ever stayed up that long.
21:43:16 <ehird> Slereah_: It's in the manual
21:43:30 <ehird> I use timers to make sure I can recompile myself in less than three seconds.
21:43:31 <ehird> Look in the bottom of a "listing" to see them all. You can use them to make
21:43:32 <ehird> your programs lightning-fast, as well.
21:46:46 <Slereah_> "I don't know how to " Write the first byte from the program string." "
21:51:16 -!- AnMaster has joined.
21:51:21 <Slereah_> Can't you say anything helpful, perverted compiler?
21:51:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:56:23 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:01:10 * kerlo frowns at HTML documents containing non-ASCII characters.
22:06:05 <Slereah_> Hm, googling Osmosian and rider on google
22:06:15 <Slereah_> "gay rider strong three men and a baby boy ghost sexy tout gratuit ..... osmosian.com pagearup.org otheedge.com oslokristiforsamling.no osg.hu paiefie.com ..."
22:07:44 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Hm, googling Osmosian and rider on google <-- is there any other place you can google, than on Google
22:08:01 <Slereah_> Let's see what "move" does to a string
22:09:51 * oerjan is not sure oslo kristi forsamling would enjoy being in that list
22:09:57 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
22:12:37 <fizzie> You can google things on yahoo, or MSN search.
22:14:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be yahooing and messing... Err I mean msning
22:15:17 <fizzie> Any web-searching is googling. (Though admittedly this is an extreme position.)
22:15:18 * AnMaster suddly remembers altavista. From back before google.
22:15:39 <Slereah_> Are riders a regular computer concept, or did they made it up?
22:15:50 <AnMaster> Slereah_, what is it supposed to do
22:15:52 <Slereah_> 'cause I have no idea how that shit works and the tutorial doesn't explain anything
22:16:11 <fizzie> There was a software-crack-hack-whatever search engine called Astalavista, too.
22:16:21 <Slereah_> I'm not too sure, that's the problem
22:16:24 <Slereah_> I set the "original" and the "source" to span the entire string. Then I position
22:16:24 <Slereah_> the "token" on the source — which leaves it blank but ready to go. When you:
22:16:25 <Slereah_> I add one to the source's first, and one to the token's last. This shortens
22:16:27 <Slereah_> the source while lengthening the token, letting you process the string a byte
22:16:29 <Slereah_> at a time. When you want to clear out the old token and start a new one, just:
22:16:31 <Slereah_> POSITION the rider's token ON the source.
22:17:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think that was the URL earlier, too.
22:17:46 <fizzie> It sounds familiar, at least.
22:17:48 <Deewiant> Yes, it has been there for as long as I have known it.
22:18:03 <Deewiant> Which is probably around 10 years or more.
22:18:08 <fizzie> There seems to also be an astalavista.com which is at least trying to look a legitimate information-search thing.
22:18:30 <fizzie> Information-security thing, I mean.
22:18:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:19:11 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astalavista.box.sk
22:21:09 <fizzie> Strange... they say it started 1994, and is a pun on Altavista; on the other hand, the Altavista entry says it was launched publically as late as December 1995 at altavista.digital.com.
22:21:23 <fizzie> They've been somehow reverse-time-punning.
22:23:12 <fizzie> Ooh, the nostalgy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Altavista-logo.png
22:23:21 <AnMaster> Hm do I misremember, or does windows have strange semantics for opening the same file from multiple programs?
22:23:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it often gets confused about what sort of lock you have
22:23:57 <ais523> especially as there's a known bug in that code through Vista, fixed in 7, that sometimes you get the wrong sort of lock
22:24:23 <AnMaster> ais523, can you open and read a logfile that another program is writing to
22:24:48 <AnMaster> either like tail, or just open in notepad or similiar
22:25:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think you can with most programs
22:25:15 <ais523> you get a file-busy error
22:25:44 <Deewiant> Did early versions of Windows even allow for different kinds of file locks?
22:26:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: By default, files are opened such that they can't be shared to other programs.
22:27:10 <Deewiant> It makes perfect sense. It might not be sensible, but that's another issue.
22:27:20 <ehird> what Deewiant said
22:27:24 <ehird> how does it not make sense
22:27:43 <AnMaster> it makes stuff like tail logfile.log hard
22:27:46 <ehird> <AnMaster> that makes no sense
22:27:49 <ehird> <me> how does it not make sense?
22:27:54 <ehird> <AnMaster> HOW DOES BANANA MAKE SENSE
22:28:15 <AnMaster> plus I can't think of any reasons it makes sense in
22:28:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it MAY NOT BE SENSIBLE
22:28:20 <ehird> but it makes sense
22:28:38 <ehird> AnMaster: see your nearest dictionary
22:28:45 <Deewiant> Makes sense = is logical as in not contradictory, or something like that
22:28:53 <Deewiant> Is sensible = what you're talking about
22:29:10 <AnMaster> well then I say it isn't sensible
22:29:13 <ehird> Slereah_: how's the plain englishity
22:29:21 <ehird> AnMaster: It isn't sensible if you're a unix user.
22:29:25 <ehird> Windows is not a unix.
22:29:36 <Deewiant> I find it a pain in the butt even as a Windows user.
22:29:41 <Slereah_> ehird : Sort of found out how to use riders.
22:29:57 <Slereah_> But I wonder, can you like bump them backward?
22:29:58 <ehird> Slereah_: it's just a string parser thing
22:30:07 <ehird> Ctrl-F rider Ctrl-N Ctrl-N etc
22:30:11 <ehird> "The US patent office no longer grants patents on perpetual motion machines, but has recently granted at least two patents on a mathematically impossible process: compression of truly random data. This document is an analysis of patent 5,533,051; see below for an analysis of another patent on the same subject."
22:30:14 <ehird> http://gailly.net/05533051.html
22:30:24 <ehird> "the direct bit encode method of the present invention is effective for reducing an input string by one bit regardless of the bit pattern of the input string."
22:30:41 <ehird> how can anyone seriously propose that?
22:30:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and the (at least under xp) issue with files being thought to be locked when they weren't
22:30:54 <ehird> it's the most obvious reductio ad absurdum to show that every input can then be reduced to one bit
22:31:01 <ehird> and expanded losslessly forever
22:31:04 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:31:11 <Deewiant> Of course, they actually are locked, they just shouldn't be
22:31:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there was some tool to force free it
22:31:22 <Deewiant> Or there's no obvious reason for why they should be
22:31:32 <Deewiant> Process Explorer can close individual handles
22:31:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but some automated "in your context menu" one
22:31:47 <Slereah_> You can bump it by a specific number
22:31:55 <impomatic> Hi, I thought I'd give the BF Joust bot a try. :-)
22:32:05 <ehird> impomatic: You're still allocated?!
22:32:11 <ehird> We thought the garbage collector got you
22:32:13 <Deewiant> It's a good way of causing blue screens by killing random handles of system processes
22:32:27 <Deewiant> (Or even some system handles in any normal process)
22:32:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, but usually it worked, since usually it was explorer.exe that held it
22:33:10 <ehird> impomatic: But I did (impomatic :: forall a. a). You can't get any value out of it. I asked oerjan for the amulet of unsafeCoerce but he wasn't there.
22:33:11 <ehird> ... Wait a second.
22:33:16 <ehird> Maybe there's more than one amulet.
22:33:20 <ehird> Maybe someone else saved you!
22:33:32 <ehird> *TUNE IN NEXT TIME FOR MORE OF HASKELL! SAME BAT TIME, SAME ESO CHANNEL*
22:33:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, closing "unimportant" handles is fine
22:33:40 <ehird> impomatic: The bot is:
22:33:41 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> (Or even some system handles in any normal process) <--- that can cause a blue screen?
22:33:46 <ehird> !bfjoust stuff +[w58
22:33:48 <EgoBot> Score for stuff: -18 (maximum 18)
22:33:55 <ehird> impomatic: Do you know the new language and its abbreviations?
22:34:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sounds terribly unsafe. Any normal user could do it
22:34:08 <ehird> There's a scoreboard, but I forget the URL.
22:34:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know about that
22:34:16 <impomatic> Anyone had much luck at BF Joust? Because it looks to me as though your not providing me with much of a challenge :-P
22:34:24 <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
22:34:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well they could to their own processes right?
22:34:52 * AnMaster imagines geting "ENOPERM" when doing fclose(stdout);
22:34:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Those important things might not be allowed to be closed even in your own process, unless you're admin
22:35:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It could also be that they're not really things that you can ever touch without admin-only tools like procexp
22:35:23 <ehird> impomatic: Oh, you've played it before?
22:35:51 <AnMaster> <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt <-- empty file?
22:36:00 <impomatic> Could do with a few more BFJ programs on there. There's only 15 for me to kill ;-)
22:36:10 <AnMaster> maybe it was being re-generated right then
22:36:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it blanks while calculated
22:36:44 <AnMaster> what is the code for that shortsword
22:36:48 <ehird> The problem with EgoBot's bf joust is that you can't hide the implementation.
22:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a good thing
22:37:10 <ehird> That makes it quite easy to beat things simply by targeting their algorithm, rather than intelligently predicting its behavior via experiments.
22:37:14 <ehird> AnMaster: it takes a lot of the skill out of it.
22:37:35 <AnMaster> ehird, where is the source for it though
22:37:43 <impomatic> Hmmm... new submission. Now I only have 94% wins and 6% ties. I'll have to work on improving that :-(
22:37:52 <ehird> Oh, you can do it via /msg, impomatic?
22:38:01 <ais523> EgoBot doesn't reply, but it still runs
22:38:21 <Slereah_> The pointer of the rider continues after the string ends D:
22:38:23 <ais523> syntax errors tie with everything
22:38:26 <ais523> it's a bug in the program
22:38:36 <EgoBot> Score for iwin: -19 (maximum 19)
22:38:37 <ais523> so don't worry too much about beating a program that's 100% ties
22:38:54 <ehird> oh, it reports it oddly
22:39:16 <ehird> 22:38 Slereah_: The pointer of the rider continues after the string ends D:
22:39:19 <ehird> AnMaster: just wait a bit
22:39:34 <AnMaster> why can't it wait with removing until it calculated the new data
22:39:48 <AnMaster> sounds trivial, just move when it writes
22:39:58 <ehird> because it is not coded that way
22:40:36 <Slereah_> Also I have no idea how to set the condition for it to stop
22:40:52 <Slereah_> If the rider's token is equal to the string maybe?
22:41:18 <ehird> Slereah_: Ask the manual
22:41:31 <AnMaster> Slereah_, so what is the rider for
22:41:38 <AnMaster> Slereah_, some form of crazy iterator?
22:41:55 <AnMaster> that is even more broken than the C++ ones (and in a different way)
22:42:01 <ehird> AnMaster: String parser.
22:42:08 <ehird> like Java's thing that does the same
22:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? You give it a grammar and it parses it?
22:42:16 <ehird> Basically a way to iterate through a string and shit
22:42:37 <Slereah_> Except not in a convenient way
22:42:38 <ehird> Slereah_: the rider section has an example
22:42:54 <Slereah_> Instead of JEWS -> J, E, W, S, it goes J, JE, JEW, JEWS
22:43:01 <ehird> Slereah_: Also, read the compiler
22:43:26 <Slereah_> add the number to the rider's token's last.
22:43:26 <Slereah_> add the number to the rider's source's first.
22:44:31 <Slereah_> If the rider's token is the program string, break.
22:45:27 <ehird> [[ [...] According to Earl Bradley, WEB Technologies' vice president of
22:45:27 <ehird> sales and marketing, the compression algorithm used by DataFiles/16
22:45:28 <ehird> is not subject to the laws of information theory. [...]]]
22:45:42 <ehird> And I am not subject to the laws of gravity.
22:48:16 <ehird> Slereah_: what program are you making?
22:48:24 <ehird> bitshitfuckbastard?
22:48:34 <ais523> in what, Plain English?
22:49:23 <Slereah_> I think I'll do a semi-infinite tape, because fuck you I ain't doing an infinite one
22:49:53 <ehird> Slereah_: That doesn't prove it TC.
22:49:58 <ehird> Plus, strings automatically grow.
22:50:12 <ais523> semi-infinite != non-TC
22:50:15 <ais523> if it's infinite one way
22:50:40 <Slereah_> Can you type the [] characters on CAL?
22:50:52 <ehird> But I use a US qwerty keyboard.
22:50:56 <Slereah_> I can't seem to be able to type any Alt character on it
22:50:56 <ehird> Maybe you should too, Frenchie.
22:51:03 <ehird> Slereah_: that's because it interprets alt as control
22:51:08 <ehird> so you can use EITHER KEY!11
22:51:19 <ehird> So switch keyboard layout, Mr White Flag Surrender French Military Victories.
22:51:24 <Slereah_> Fuck it, it will be parenthesises
22:53:42 <ais523> IDEs should be separate from the language
22:53:44 <ais523> to avoid mess like this
22:53:50 <ais523> at least, the language shouldn't require an IDE
22:54:16 <ehird> ais523: I'd listen to your point but please don't point out basic shit about plain english
22:54:26 <ehird> It transcends such mundane horribleness.
22:54:42 <ehird> We must turn our attention to the Cthulhu-like atrocities.
22:55:00 <Slereah_> Oh fuck, how do I change a character of a string at the rider's position
22:55:08 <ehird> Slereah_: change its target
22:55:19 <ehird> Put the at byte into the rider's token's target
22:55:26 <ehird> (would put @ into it)
23:00:57 <ehird> Slereah_: Look up MOVING OUR RIDERS in the TOC.
23:01:00 <ehird> It shows how to handle everything.
23:01:18 <ehird> " first's target is the right-alligator byte,"
23:01:40 <ehird> Slereah_: They call > the right alligator byte
23:01:45 <ehird> and < the left alligator byte
23:02:04 <ehird> ais523: you should support Plain English names in intercal!
23:02:17 <ais523> INTERCAL names aren't used by the language, though
23:02:31 <pikhq> You know what you guys should be doing instead of Plain English?
23:02:37 <Slereah_> Also I'm not sure this is helpfulm
23:02:45 <pikhq> It, too, has English syntax.
23:02:48 <Slereah_> It doesn't seem to involve changing the original string
23:02:59 <ehird> Slereah_: Riders are for parsing
23:03:00 <pikhq> However, it's deliciously esoteric.
23:03:04 <ehird> Slereah_: Parse it into a parse tree
23:03:06 <pikhq> Instead of claiming not to be.
23:03:07 <ehird> Then mutaterate that
23:03:13 <ehird> Slereah_: It'll be slightly less horrific
23:03:16 * pikhq thinks that Objects R Kool.
23:03:33 <ehird> Slereah_: Parse it into a data structure.
23:03:51 <pikhq> Slereah_: What are you doing here?
23:03:52 <Slereah_> Also ORK is not the best plain english compiler, pikhq
23:04:00 <ehird> pikhq: implementing boolfuck in Plain English
23:04:04 <pikhq> Slereah_: ORK is a much better language.
23:04:15 <Slereah_> But they say that Plain English is the best!
23:04:22 <ehird> pikhq: But the interesting thing about this is that it actually _works_, there's an actual 10,000 fucking lines of code in it to provide a compiler, a GUI, and a standard library doing all sorts of useless shit, and it's actually a full language, it's just shit and misguided, but it actually works and is real and is big and that's what's so horrific and interesting.
23:04:46 <Slereah_> What it really lacks is a detailled manual
23:04:52 <ehird> pikhq: Read the rest of my sentence, plz.
23:05:03 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah...
23:05:09 <Slereah_> It assumes that its commands are self explanatory because they're in English
23:05:18 <pikhq> I just have a similar opinion of this as I have of LOLCODE.
23:05:34 <pikhq> (it's still better than LOLCODE, but not by much)
23:05:35 <ehird> pikhq: LOLCODE is a small language, though.
23:05:41 <Slereah_> Except LOLCODE isn't the scourge of the earth.
23:05:43 <ais523> LOLCODE strikes me as probably better
23:05:44 <ehird> It's just uninteresting - it has basically no supporting code.
23:05:47 <ehird> It has no infrastructure.
23:05:50 <ais523> LOLCODE is just a boring language with a stupid syntax
23:05:53 <ehird> It doesn't have a full set, so to speak
23:05:57 <Slereah_> Plain English is interesting because it's crazy.
23:05:59 <ehird> This language is worse than LOLCODE...
23:06:01 <ehird> But it's complete.
23:06:01 <ais523> whereas Plain English is a BANCStar-like monstrosity
23:06:06 <ehird> It's a complete black hole of what the fuck?
23:06:16 <ais523> and LOLCODE is TC, IIRC
23:06:16 <pikhq> ais523: My opinion of both of them are mostly based on its proponents.
23:06:18 <ehird> But when you step in to the black hole, there's so much goddamn stuff and you can't believe to think it's real.
23:06:23 <ehird> But it is, and that's horrific.
23:06:43 <pikhq> ais523: And it took them forever to write an implementation.
23:06:52 <ais523> maybe they had no competent programmers
23:06:59 <pikhq> PEBBLE got a working implementation in 24 hours. :p
23:07:00 <ais523> you could probably implement it relatively easily in yacc, or Thutu
23:07:09 <ais523> pikhq: heh, you implemented LOLCODE in PEBBLE
23:07:24 <ehird> ais523: you misunderstand
23:07:26 <pikhq> I'm only so insane.
23:07:31 <ais523> that would have been pretty funny, though
23:07:47 <ehird> By the way, for a language that hates C so much,.
23:07:54 <ehird> it maps very easily on to a restricted subset of C>
23:07:57 <ehird> I find that amusing
23:07:58 <Slereah_> Thinking about it, I think there would be an easier way of proving TCness.
23:08:10 <ehird> Here, I'll translate my factorial function to C.
23:08:22 <Slereah_> I think it shouldn't be too hard to translate recursive functions in Plain English
23:08:30 <pikhq> Slereah_: It has loops that you can break out of and conditionals.
23:08:45 <pikhq> It just might be TC.
23:09:37 <Slereah_> What is infuriating is that it has no arrays
23:09:39 <Slereah_> Isn't the concept of array not English enough?
23:09:41 <ehird> For instance, pikhq:
23:09:42 <ehird> To (0)put (1)a number's (2)factorial (3)into (4)a result (5)number:
23:09:43 <ehird> void (0)put_(2)factorial(int a_number, (5)int (3)* (4)a_result)
23:09:58 <Sgeo> Took PSOX a long time to get a working implementation
23:10:27 <Slereah_> Let's drop that and do other things
23:11:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: And PSOX is significantly harder to implement. :p
23:12:02 <Slereah_> I just can't deal with such a bad implementation of arrays :(
23:12:44 <Slereah_> But still, I think a translation of recursive functions should be pretty trivial for that
23:12:49 <Slereah_> At least you don't need ARRAYS
23:14:41 <pikhq> One could patch the compiler. :p
23:15:03 <Slereah_> The compiler isn't the problem, I think it's the manual
23:15:47 <Slereah_> The big problem, I think, is that it wants to show a lot that it's "easy" for complex tasks like GUI shit, so it dwells way too much on that
23:15:59 <Slereah_> But it skims over important things like arrays and such
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23:16:16 <Slereah_> Half of it is pretty much about doing a paint program
23:17:14 <ehird> pikhq: Slereah_: A step-by-step demonstration that the anti-kludge Plain English is basically a rearrangement of a small subset of C: http://pastie.org/486940.txt?key=y7p297kilxy4kj0kelcig
23:17:29 <ehird> Each line translates almost directly with basically just a little moving around
23:17:58 <ehird> [note: the into variable is more like a C reference, but we'll just
23:18:01 <ehird> [note: the into variable is more like a C++ reference, but we'll just
23:18:16 <Sgeo> ehird, that doesn't prove that it always works. It just shows that it can be done for one particular example
23:18:32 <ehird> Sgeo: That example is what ALL plain english code looks like.
23:18:38 <ehird> It's all the essential structures.
23:18:46 <ehird> And I haven't yet seen an example I can't trivially do it mentally to.
23:18:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Did I say proof?
23:19:06 <ehird> It's just a demonstration.
23:19:16 <ehird> You can easily show it for all the other code if you hate yourself.
23:19:23 <ehird> You could probably automate it, if you hate yourself.
23:19:39 <Sgeo> Automate translating plain english into code?
23:19:52 <ehird> Sgeo: not plain english
23:20:00 <ehird> You're worse at context than AnMaster.
23:21:02 <pikhq> ehird: Automating it would mean a saner implementation.
23:21:16 <ehird> The noodle depends on THE KLUDGE
23:21:19 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:21:26 <ehird> Due to its referencing DLLs and inline machine code.
23:21:30 <ehird> pikhq: can you even do inline machine code in gcc?
23:21:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:21:48 <pikhq> Yes, but it's an epic hack.
23:22:29 <pikhq> Let's see if I can find the bit in Linux that does that.
23:25:20 <pikhq> You stick it in an unsigned char, you have inline assembly jump to it, and you have that inline machine code jump back.
23:25:35 <pikhq> (best to do that by sticking the address to jump to in a register)
23:25:45 <pikhq> Like I said, epic hack.
23:25:58 -!- inurinternet has joined.
23:26:04 <pikhq> And Linux does it for going down to real mode for a bit.
23:26:14 <pikhq> (startup and shutdown code)
23:26:20 -!- darthnuri has joined.
23:26:37 <ehird> pikhq: How come it doesn't just use asm?
23:26:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:27:06 <pikhq> gas doesn't do 16-bit code.
23:27:12 <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/headlines.cfm
23:28:54 <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/index.cfm
23:29:10 <Sgeo> Although the rest of the stuff isn't really that good
23:29:23 <ehird> I've always thought Mark Twain's satire about English spelling was actually good.
23:29:27 <ehird> "Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev alojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld." is a lot nicer than English.
23:30:12 <pikhq> Except that it still doesn't do a 1-to-1 mapping of phonemes to graphemes.
23:30:26 <Sgeo> Well, I've seen it before, so I guess I got tired of it :/
23:30:33 <Gracenotes> okay. So, my plan until my old boss calls me back: watch Battlestar Galactica from the start while playing Pokemon Emerald, from the start
23:30:48 <Gracenotes> I think I'll finish BSG before I finish Pokemon, though.
23:31:05 <ehird> pikhq: Oxi, xen, xou about xis?
23:31:40 <pikhq> ehird: ... That's actually worse than English.
23:32:36 <ehird> pikhq: uel, i xemplefid --bah-- pronunciation on the way, too.
23:33:04 <ehird> I'm aiming for one letter, one pronunciation, and less letters used in total, and close enough to English to be intelligible to an English speaker when pronounced.
23:33:35 <ehird> "uel, i xemplefid" only has one pronunciation for each letter it has, and sounds more or less identical to the original English "well, i simplified"
23:34:15 <ehird> So "xou" sounds like "sou" or "thou" (but with the th being quite weak), which is intelligible as "how" when spoken.
23:34:27 <ehird> I should be "Oxa" for okay, though.
23:34:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
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23:36:15 <ehird> "Oxa, xen, xou about xis" seems simpler to me.
23:36:24 <ehird> If not that, then at least "Uel, I xemplefid".
23:37:58 <pikhq> There's other orthographies that have a direct mapping between phonemes and graphemes.
23:38:12 <ehird> pikhq: in English?
23:38:42 <ehird> Anyway, mine simplified both spelling and pronunciaiton.
23:38:46 <ehird> So it isn't a 1:1 map.
23:40:09 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
23:42:09 <ehird> pikhq: so what's the flaws with mine?
23:42:29 <pikhq> It creates a Great Consonant Shift.
23:43:28 <ehird> Actually, you could drop f too. It's quite close to x.
23:43:37 <ehird> xemplexid is still comprehensible to an english speaker.
23:44:00 <pikhq> So's Middle English.
23:44:11 <ehird> Mine's simpler ;-)
23:44:18 <pikhq> ... You're creating a different language.
23:44:47 <ehird> pikhq: A language that, when pronounced, is easily understood by English users, has the same semantics at its core, and is not all that different apart from a simplified pronunciation and spelling.
23:44:57 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success).
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23:47:46 <pikhq> Also, 'xou' isn't intelligible as "how".
23:47:52 <pikhq> It's intelligible as "thou".
23:48:45 * Slereah_ tries to write Limp on Mathematica
23:48:54 <ehird> x = a weak blend of s/z, with a bit of a h hint
23:48:59 <Slereah_> It has some useful notations, I'll say.
23:49:07 <pikhq> ehird: No, but it's significantly closer to th than anything else.
23:49:08 <ehird> Slereah_: do it in plain english
23:49:17 <ehird> pikhq: I invented my own meaning for x.
23:49:29 <Slereah_> ehird : Shut up or I'll kill you
23:49:43 <pikhq> Basically what you're doing is creating a bunch of homonyms for no real gain.
23:49:44 <Slereah_> µ1[x_, y_] := If[x[y] == 0, y, µ[x, y + 1]]
23:49:56 <Slereah_> Try to do this, Plain English!
23:49:59 <ehird> pikhq: It doth reduce the letters and pronunces..
23:50:04 <Slereah_> Although I wonder if I could do that in one line
23:50:23 <ehird> µ[x_, y_] := If[x[y] == 0, y, µ[x, y + 1]]; µ[x_] := µ[x, 0]
23:50:24 <pikhq> Oh, and English's *phonemes* are not a problem.
23:50:37 <ehird> pikhq: i knoooooooooow but
23:50:42 <pikhq> That'd be like fixing C by merging {} with ().
23:50:56 <Slereah_> Mathematica is nicely functional and all
23:50:58 <pikhq> You're not helping the language, you're just doing linguistic masturbation.
23:51:16 <ehird> pikhq: Nuthin' wrong with masturbation.
23:51:25 <ehird> Apart from the masturbation of DEVILLISH VIDEO GAMES
23:51:28 <pikhq> And like most masturbation, it's not something you want to see.
23:51:52 <pikhq> And you're just fucking yourself. ;)
23:51:57 <ehird> (Jack Thompson, in a well-known bout of intellectual dishonesty, called video games masturbation and then noted that it doesn't have to actually mean something sexual - but in doing so, gave it the "negative" connotations of a sexual act. Fun fun.)
23:53:26 <Sgeo> sexual acts have negative connotations?
23:53:50 <pikhq> Where sex is ebil.
23:56:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> not the noodle <ehird> the compiler <-- yeah what was the noodle and compiler about...
23:56:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Noodle = stdlib.
23:56:48 <ehird> "Anyone in China reading this:" —reddit
23:56:50 <ehird> Logical flaw detected.
23:57:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> [[ [...] According to Earl Bradley, WEB Technologies' vice president of {...} <-- what the hell was that about, and where was it form
23:58:05 <ehird> AnMaster: See the link a bit above.
00:02:05 <Slereah_> How to test for atomomicity in Mathematica?
00:02:16 <Slereah_> I searched for "type" and "atom", but no dice
00:03:44 <Slereah_> Though it encompasses more than just lists
00:05:22 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit above the original?
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <impomatic> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt <-- empty file?
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: Slereah_: A step-by-step demonstration that the anti-kludge Plain English is basically a rearrangement of a small subset of C: http://pastie.org/486940.txt?key=y7p297kilxy4kj0kelcig
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/headlines.cfm
00:06:16 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/index.cfm
00:06:21 <AnMaster> that is all for http in lastlog
00:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it is out of my scrollback if it was listed there
00:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Try clog.
00:07:14 <ehird> Not my fault your backlog is tiny.
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00:13:37 <Slereah_> How do I define a function with an undefined number of variable?
00:17:35 <Slereah_> "Functions with Variable Numbers of Arguments"
00:24:08 <Slereah_> So it is __ indeed but how the fuck do I choose between the variables.
00:25:21 <ehird> __ is a list, then
00:27:06 <oerjan> Slereah_: um are you using two or three underscores there?
00:27:34 <ehird> In[7]:= fucking[args__] := args
00:27:36 <ehird> In[8]:= fucking[1, 2, 3]
00:27:38 <ehird> Out[8]= Sequence[1, 2, 3]
00:27:39 <ehird> you have to name it
00:28:00 <ehird> Slereah_: so fucking[args___] := args in your case
00:28:59 <Slereah_> I'll just do List[arg], it will prolly be easier to handle
00:29:15 <ehird> Slereah_: this way gives you a sequence
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00:30:35 <Slereah_> But I can't select a particular member of it
00:30:45 <Slereah_> p[y_, x___] := List[x][[y]] works nicely
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00:31:25 <ehird> it works just like a list.
00:31:35 <ehird> so just do butt[args___] := args is like a list yay
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00:32:11 <Slereah_> In[156]:= p[y_, x__] := x[[y]]
00:32:11 <Slereah_> During evaluation of In[157]:= Part::partd: Part specification \
00:32:11 <Slereah_> 1[[2,3,4,5,1]] is longer than depth of object. >>
00:32:30 <ehird> Slereah_: Just look up sequence in the help k
00:32:49 <Slereah_> But you can just put it in List
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00:36:45 <ehird> Slereah_: You know the best thing about mathematica?
00:37:38 <ehird> Slereah_: What about
00:37:44 <ehird> <ESC>pi<ESC><Ctrl-6>2
00:37:54 <Sgeo> I don't get it, what do those do?
00:38:04 <ehird> Sgeo: ESCpiESC turns into the pi symbol
00:38:08 <ehird> <Ctrl-6> enters a subscript
00:38:18 <ehird> So you get pi^2, but as the actual pi symbol, and a superscript 2
00:38:22 <ehird> And it actually works
00:38:33 <Sgeo> You said ctrl-6 was a subscript
00:38:56 <ehird> It also work nestedly.
00:39:07 <ehird> 2<Ctrl-6>2<Ctrl-6>2<Ctrl-6>2 →
00:40:22 <ehird> http://pastie.org/486988.txt
00:40:26 <ehird> The wonders of adding two more characters
00:40:48 <ehird> Slereah_: Say, I'm math-brainfarting at the moment: Is there like a modulo but for exponentiation?
00:40:52 <ehird> modulo = dus dis divide
00:40:58 <ehird> ??? = dus dis exponentiate-y
00:41:14 <ehird> "foo[N,M] is this M**X, and what is X"
00:42:28 <ehird> "In particular, an ordinary logarithm loga(b) is a solution of the equation ax = b "
00:42:30 <ehird> This I did not know!
00:43:02 <oerjan> you might want to get the superscripts correctly displayed
00:43:18 <ehird> oerjan: i just copied from wikipedia
00:43:24 <ehird> where it looked right.
00:43:36 <oerjan> ehird: wait, you didn't know about logarithms?
00:43:46 <ehird> I knew about logarithms
00:44:01 <ehird> I just didn't realise that's what they did, beacuse I've always used them in such familiar bases like e, I guess.
00:44:05 <ehird> Colour me retarded :-)
00:47:23 <Slereah_> What is quite boner about Mathematica is that sometimes, defined functions persist even after deleting them
00:47:29 <oerjan> although if you are not talking modulo arithmetic, solving N = M^X for X is a bit simpler (but rarely has a solution unless it's designed that way of course)
00:47:31 <Slereah_> I don't know what to do to delete them nicely
00:47:43 <ehird> Slereah_: how are you "deleting" them?
00:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: I just wanted the analogue of modulo to exponentiation
00:48:13 <ehird> (what modulo is to multiplication)
00:48:18 <ehird> Slereah_: wait what? show an example
00:49:08 <oerjan> ehird: hm that might be N/(M**X) where X is maximal such that it divides...
00:49:32 <oerjan> modulo is the same for N-M*X
00:49:39 <ehird> how doesn't it work?
00:50:38 <oerjan> ehird: except because smaller things subtract, but don't necessarily divide, N/(M**X) might end up being still much larger than M
00:50:50 <Slereah_> Also yay I did every lisp and recursive functions!
00:51:00 <oerjan> unless you go to fractions
00:51:21 <ehird> Slereah_: can you define types in mathematica?
00:52:18 <oerjan> ehird: oh, in floating point the going to fractions version would be the mantissa, i think
00:52:24 <ehird> Slereah_: Do you know how to bring up the last line in mathematica? It's so annoying going to it and hitting enter
00:52:38 <ehird> actually enter doesn't work
00:52:39 <Slereah_> During evaluation of In[21]:= Unset::wrsym: Symbol \[ImaginaryI] is \
00:52:40 <ehird> you have to copy/paste
00:54:14 <oerjan> ehird: actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significand seems to have two meanings related to my two last suggestions
00:56:58 <Slereah_> I'm not sure Mathematica can actually handle lambdas
00:57:08 <Slereah_> It's not too hard to do, but still
00:57:41 <ehird> Slereah_: just represent them as {lambda,closure,code}
01:00:57 <Slereah_> Let's try out a bit the recursive functions first
01:02:29 <ehird> Slereah_: do you know what is cool?
01:02:51 <Slereah_> Ah, maybe I have to define primitive recursion, too
01:03:59 <oerjan> go one step further and define jurassic recursion
01:04:44 <oerjan> (you may have to invent the term first)
01:04:54 <oerjan> the meaning of it, i mean
01:05:27 <Slereah_> rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] := If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, f[x - 1], y]]
01:09:49 <Slereah_> 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]] < This does not look very worky
01:10:30 <ehird> Slereah_: how can x be 0
01:11:23 <ehird> i has a mathematica function that doth not work myself
01:12:36 <ehird> just one element is just "x"
01:12:52 <ehird> Slereah_: what happens if you just do
01:12:56 <ehird> does it think its an atom
01:12:59 <ehird> THAT SOLVES MY PROBLEM
01:13:53 <ehird> Round[96.75 + -21.98*Cos[x*1.118] +
01:13:54 <ehird> 13.29*Sin[x*1.118] + -8.387*Cos[2*x*1.118] +
01:13:56 <ehird> 17.94*Sin[2*x*1.118] + 1.265*Cos[3*x*1.118] +
01:13:58 <ehird> 16.58*Sin[3*x*1.118] + 3.988*Cos[4*x*1.118] +
01:14:00 <ehird> 8.463*Sin[4*x*1.118] + 0.3583*Cos[5*x*1.118] +
01:14:02 <ehird> 5.878*Sin[5*x*1.118]]
01:14:06 <ehird> In[70]:= FromCharacterCode[HelloWorld /@ Range[0, 11]]
01:14:08 <ehird> Out[70]= "Hello world!"
01:14:14 <ehird> (http://www.poromenos.org/node/89)
01:14:29 <Slereah_> In[55]:= rec[x_, y__, f_, g_] :=
01:14:29 <Slereah_> If[x == 0, g[y], f[x, y, g, f[x - 1, y]]]
01:14:29 <Slereah_> In[54]:= plus[x_, y_] := rec[x, y, y, s[p[3, x]]]
01:14:29 <Slereah_> Out[56]= 1[1, 1, s[p[3, 1]], 1[0, 1]]
01:14:55 <ehird> Slereah_: rec[x,y,y
01:14:59 <ehird> so you pass in y as f
01:15:01 <ehird> and from your code
01:15:06 <ehird> so you're trying to call 1 as a function
01:15:47 <Slereah_> It should be... well, the projection function, really
01:15:51 <fizzie> I think I fitted ("fut"?) a Hello, World! polynom; I don't remember what the purpose was.
01:16:51 <Slereah_> Except... I can't really pass the projection function as a function?
01:17:18 <Slereah_> I need to redefine p as a class of functions, I guess
01:17:18 <ehird> Slereah_: You need to implement that yourself, I think.
01:17:29 <Slereah_> An argument brings back the correct projection function
01:18:05 <Slereah_> Although I'm not too sure how to do it
01:21:38 <ehird> x_] := -95650 + (21843120265*x)/72072 - (112096622047*x^2)/
01:21:40 <ehird> 277200 + (555063110881*x^3)/1814400 - (536874245743*x^4)/
01:21:42 <ehird> 3628800 + (353243077547*x^5)/7257600 - (54539603707*x^6)/
01:21:44 <ehird> 4838400 + (1696200589*x^7)/907200 - (1079063647*x^8)/
01:21:46 <ehird> 4838400 + (68808973*x^9)/3628800 - (16265027*x^10)/
01:21:48 <ehird> 14515200 + (872351*x^11)/19958400 - (53819*x^12)/
01:21:50 <ehird> 53222400 + (991*x^13)/94348800
01:21:52 <ehird> An alternate hello world function.
01:21:54 <ehird> Has comma, newline.
01:24:19 * pikhq contemplates jurassic recursion
01:26:35 <Slereah_> While 1+1=1, at least there's a result.
01:28:26 <Slereah_> Oh, I guess I can't compose functions like that.
01:29:49 <oerjan> pikhq: it probably involves a food chain somehow
01:37:06 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
01:37:41 <oerjan> you are trying to confuse the magickians even more, i take
01:38:05 * pikhq wants someone to think of him as a technomage. :)
01:39:46 <Slereah_> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/SICP_wizard.jpg/SICP_wizard-full;init:.jpg
01:39:46 <Slereah_> http://dqn.dqn.lol.googlepages.com/GJS_Jay_Sussman_Feat._JSB_Sebastian_.mp3
01:46:51 <Slereah_> Although Limp would be a bitch to program on Mathematica, or anywhere, really
01:46:58 <Slereah_> Arithmetica should be easy to whip up!
01:59:58 <Slereah_> Kudos to Mathematica, for it has the obsolete greek characters
02:15:58 <oerjan> so can it give results in greek numerals?
02:20:02 <Slereah_> I'm trying to define the syntax so that it does, but so far, not a lot of results
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04:18:26 <zzo38> Well, how do *you* think FlogScript and GolfScript compare with each other?
04:20:03 <zzo38> Nobody has been on here for more than an hour?
04:22:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up a music for MZX game, some people on other channel doesn't do that
04:24:07 <zzo38> This one I can't sent CTRL+G it tells me is no text to send.
04:26:30 <zzo38> O it is slow that's why it doesn't work OK
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07:10:34 <bsmntbombdood> gzip - 26 minutes, bzip2, 110 minutes, lzma - 246 minutes
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12:33:56 <Slereah> Can you redefine the syntax in Mathematica?
12:34:11 <Slereah> I tried using ^:=, but it doesn't seem to work so well
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16:39:19 <ehird> 00:39 Slereah_: It's actually a song ← originally a sick pea lecture quote
16:39:27 <ehird> and i liked that song before it was cool :|
16:39:43 <ehird> 00:54 Slereah_: Pi is a protected symbol
16:39:43 <ehird> 00:55 Slereah_: Ah, you can unprotect shit
16:39:44 <ehird> 00:55 Slereah_: Good
16:39:46 <ehird> good god, just giv eit another name
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16:54:53 <ehird> haven't seen you here before, you new?
16:55:12 <seanstickle> I am. I saw a reference to the channel from coverage of the Brainfuck KOTH
16:55:17 <ehird> (/me looks at logs and notices two other new people since Slereah changed the topic. coincidence? I think not)
16:55:20 <seanstickle> Thought I'd stop in and see what all is cool and stuff
16:55:23 <ehird> seanstickle: "Brainfuck KOTH", heh
16:55:29 <ehird> 's just ais5523's BF Joust variant :-)
16:55:49 <ehird> if you want to play, "!bfjoust nameofchallenger code" in here or /msg EgoBot works. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt has the report :-)
16:55:52 <seanstickle> Back in the day, I dabbled in Corewar, and this seemed interesting to me
16:56:31 <ehird> Yes, but more ... pirate.
16:57:07 <ehird> Hmm... the first comment on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html: "BF? this was that whole thing that came out of where perl stands?". I tell you, when the last esolang finally loses its last user, someone will make that tired joke.
17:00:08 <ehird> FromCharacterCode[72 + (29 + (-11 + (5/2 + (-5/24 + (-3/4 + (241/360
17:00:10 <ehird> + (-171/560 + (3779/40320 + (-31/1440 + (197/50400 + (-11521/19958400
17:00:12 <ehird> + (1523*(-12 + #1))/21772800)*(-11 + #1))*(-10 + #1))*(-9 + #1))*(-8
17:00:14 <ehird> + #1))*(-7 + #1))*(-6 + #1))*(-5 + #1))*(-4 + #1))*(-3 + #1))*(-2 +
17:00:16 <ehird> #1))*(-1 + #1)& /@ Range[13]]
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17:07:01 -!- ehird has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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17:27:55 <Taejo> !bfjout Neniam [>-]
17:34:59 <ehird> It's amusing how impomatic can make this channel twice as active :-)
17:35:05 <ehird> Taejo: try "joust"
17:35:41 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniam [>-]
17:35:50 <EgoBot> Score for Neniam: -7 (maximum 25)
17:36:43 <ehird> Taejo: that does not blank any cell
17:36:49 <ehird> Taejo: it also stops immediately
17:36:59 <ehird> Taejo: it just does
17:37:11 <ehird> 0 0 0 0 -> 255 0 0 0 -> 255 255 0 0 ->
17:37:26 <ehird> that makes your opponent possibly slow down
17:37:29 <ehird> but never blanks their flag
17:37:37 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel [-+]
17:37:46 <ehird> does bfjoust have +?
17:37:47 <Taejo> defend, Neniel, defend
17:37:51 <ehird> wait that was fukyorbrane
17:38:08 <ehird> Taejo: an improvement to consider: if it's non-zero, [-]. otherwise, -
17:38:15 <ehird> that'll set up a lot of guards, but get rid of flags (but also duds)
17:38:48 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 25)
17:38:57 <Taejo> ehird: yeah, just throwing in a few trivialities to get myself going. been a while since I wrote brainfuck
17:39:30 <Taejo> ehird: is it +1 for a win, -1 for a loss, 0 for a draw?
17:41:16 <ehird> I think it's -1 for a draw or something
17:41:20 <ehird> The program is a bit odd and has some bugs, iirc
17:45:19 <Taejo> ehird: struggling to figure out the "otherwise" part of your improvement
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17:46:15 <ehird> Taejo: As in, if the cell we're on is zero, decrement one. This makes it 255, and serves as a barrier. If it's non-zero, [-] to set it to zero. This wipes out flags, but slows down on duds. However, your current program can never win a match, so it's an improvement.
17:46:52 <Taejo> ehird: I meant, I'm struggling to figure out how to implement it
17:47:20 <ehird> Taejo: Hmm. Something like:
17:47:25 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
17:48:07 <MizardX> Is program name the name of an existing program, or one that I make up?
17:48:28 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -4 (maximum 26)
17:49:14 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel (>)*10-[[-]>-]
17:49:49 <ehird> Taejo: [-[>(I forget how, but: If non-zero,)[-](else)-(endif)].+]
17:49:51 <ehird> Something like that.
17:50:06 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
17:50:15 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel: -11 (maximum 26)
17:50:24 <ehird> Taejo: But with actual code in place of (placeholders) :P
18:00:07 <Taejo> strange game: the score reported by the bot is different from the one in http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:01:09 <Taejo> !bfjoust Neniel2 (>)*10-[[-]>>-]
18:01:11 <ehird> That's called a bug. :-)
18:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for Neniel2: -7 (maximum 27)
18:01:46 <ehird> It'd be nice if people prefixed their prog names with their name.
18:02:00 <Taejo> ehird: sorry, never thought about it
18:02:50 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Neni.
18:03:03 <Neni> oh, this nick is registered
18:03:07 -!- Neni has changed nick to Nen.
18:03:12 <Nen> this one too
18:03:48 -!- Nen has changed nick to Ne.
18:04:20 <Ne> I give up, they're all registered
18:04:23 -!- Ne has changed nick to Taejo.
18:05:05 <Taejo> ehird: that's not a prefix of Neniam
18:05:15 -!- Taejo has changed nick to Nenie.
18:05:19 <ehird> Taejo: your pograms are Neniel
18:05:23 <ehird> Nenie is a prefix of Neniel
18:05:47 <Nenie> my first was called Neniam
18:06:09 <Nenie> it's esperanto for never, since it would never win a game
18:06:24 <Nenie> Neniel = no way, nenie = nowhere
18:06:28 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -6 (maximum 27)
18:08:45 <Nenie> !bfjoust Nenie.hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-]
18:08:46 -!- inurinternet has joined.
18:09:03 <ehird> Nenie: think . is invalid
18:09:21 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]--->[-[-[-[++++[+[+[-]]]]]]]+++]
18:09:55 <EgoBot> Score for MzX2: -7 (maximum 29)
18:10:05 <Nenie> !bfjoust Nenie_hopeful (>->+)*5[[-]>>-]
18:10:53 <EgoBot> Score for Nenie_hopeful: -6 (maximum 28)
18:11:55 <EgoBot> Score for Nenie_hopeful: -3 (maximum 29)
18:13:02 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:15:44 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX_fail [-]-[+<[-]-]
18:16:07 <ehird> MizardX: that goes left off tape
18:16:26 <MizardX> I know. I wanted too see how low score you can get
18:16:41 <EgoBot> Score for MzX_fail: -9 (maximum 30)
18:16:58 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish [-].
18:17:56 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish: -11 (maximum 31)
18:18:24 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish2 <
18:18:25 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid >--->+++>--->+[[>][-][<]+]
18:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish2: -2 (maximum 33)
18:18:30 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -4 (maximum 33)
18:18:41 <ehird> I think my -11 is the worst yet
18:18:52 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish3 [+].
18:18:58 <ehird> I think that may obliterate itself even faster.
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18:20:05 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish3: -12 (maximum 34)
18:20:09 <lifthrasiir> wait, my bfjoust code didn't match my intention.
18:20:33 <ehird> ofc that's just because there's one more challenger
18:20:58 <ehird> lifthrasiir: mine does better, as it completely erases itself instantly
18:21:04 <ehird> instead of waiting to be killed
18:21:17 <ehird> well not instantly it takes some cycles
18:21:19 <ehird> but you can't do it faster
18:22:29 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX3 >(+[[-]>+])*3
18:23:14 <EgoBot> Score for MzX3: -7 (maximum 35)
18:24:02 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_rubbish4 (-)*128
18:24:09 <ehird> Takes less cycles ;).
18:24:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rubbish4: -6 (maximum 36)
18:24:15 <ehird> (Since, iirc, looping has a cos— WTF?
18:25:19 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid2 >--->+++>--->+[>[-]+]
18:25:59 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid2: -10 (maximum 37)
18:26:29 <lifthrasiir> frankly i cannot think of any stretagy for bfjoust
18:26:38 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX4 >+[[>]<[-]>+]
18:26:39 <ehird> lifthrasiir: defend, attack, and another
18:26:46 <EgoBot> Score for MzX4: -4 (maximum 38)
18:27:51 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid3 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]]
18:28:16 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX5 >+[[->+][>]<[-]>+]
18:28:32 <EgoBot> Score for MzX5: -4 (maximum 40)
18:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid3: -12 (maximum 39)
18:29:10 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir_stupid4 >--->+++>--->>+[[+>][<]>]
18:29:50 <ehird> Slow like a green.
18:30:11 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid4: -11 (maximum 41)
18:34:06 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX6 >++++>---->++++>+[>[->>]<[-]>+]
18:34:12 <coppro> !bfjoust copppro1 >+[[-]>+]
18:34:31 <EgoBot> Score for MzX6: -6 (maximum 42)
18:35:06 <EgoBot> Score for copppro1: -8 (maximum 43)
18:35:24 <coppro> how do you actually play someone else?
18:35:30 <coppro> oh, nevermind I get it
18:35:34 <GregorR-L> When you give a program, it p--- yeah :P
18:35:36 <coppro> the score is you versus everyone else
18:35:49 <coppro> anyway to delete a program
18:35:55 <GregorR-L> Yuh, and it gives a breakdown at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:36:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: can you delete all of the crap ones :P
18:36:35 <GregorR-L> coppro: It has to finish running them all before it can generate the report, which takes for freaking ever X_X
18:36:56 <coppro> GregorR-L: it shows a blank fully loaded file
18:37:15 <ehird> which blanks report.txt first
18:37:21 <ehird> that's why cat a b>a doesn't work
18:38:23 <MizardX> What does "." do in bfjoust?
18:39:03 <ehird> MizardX: the opponent has to be 0 for two cycles
18:39:08 <ehird> so if you know it's not defending, you can . to nop
18:40:02 <coppro> it's still not loaded :(
18:40:17 <GregorR-L> Somebody rewrite bfjoust.pl in C :P
18:40:30 <GregorR-L> And/or determine why it's so slow.
18:40:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's ais523 code
18:40:44 <ehird> i don't know how that's relevant
18:40:48 <ehird> but it's probably very inherent
18:40:53 <ehird> I bet he used a really slow perl feature or something
18:41:19 <ehird> coppro: perl regexs are superoptimized
18:41:26 <GregorR-L> Holy crapsicles, there are like 30 programs here.
18:41:29 <ehird> I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs
18:41:33 <ehird> and that's compiled haskell
18:42:23 <coppro> s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?<BRACE>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?<AFTER>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?<NUM>[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex
18:43:17 <pikhq> s/^(\(((?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\{(?<BRACE>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%\[\]]|$bgroup|\{(?&BRACE)\})*)\}(?<AFTER>(?:[\-+<>.*0-9%{}\[\]]|$bgroup)*)\))\%(?<NUM>[0-9]+)/$+{NUM} ? "$2$1%".($+{NUM}-1).$+{AFTER} : $+{BRACE}/ex
18:43:40 <ehird> I am talking about http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
18:43:44 <pikhq> Trying to just select that and send it to someone else.
18:43:46 <ehird> Not whatever you guys are talking about.
18:43:51 <ehird> pikhq: that's not oerjan's code.
18:43:54 <ehird> Maybe it's from bfjoust.pl
18:43:59 <ehird> It looks very ais523
18:44:00 <pikhq> ehird: That's also insane.
18:44:09 <coppro> that paste is from bfjoust, yes
18:44:11 <ehird> pikhq: Eh, there's only one gnarly regexp
18:44:14 <ehird> if (s!^/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/((?:[^/\\]|\\.)*)/!!s) {
18:44:17 <ehird> which isn't that bad really
18:44:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just kill all of 'em?
18:44:33 <ehird> Nothing much valuable here
18:44:36 <GregorR-L> When the programs time out, they can take as long as 3 seconds.
18:44:48 <GregorR-L> I'm deleting any of them that timeout, one sec :P
18:45:11 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:47:23 <EgoBot> Score for attack2: -2 (maximum 5)
18:47:30 <ehird> Only 5 challengers now.
18:47:42 <coppro> report.txt is still blank
18:47:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: you should make it delete the worst few challengers every now and then, say
18:47:50 <ehird> coppro: BE. PATIENT!
18:47:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: or just do it manually
18:47:59 <MizardX> Is it possible to get positive score?
18:48:12 <GregorR-L> coppro: That's 25 runs, it's up now.
18:48:51 <ehird> You deleted impomatic's programs.
18:48:55 <ehird> Why did you do that?
18:49:11 <GregorR-L> I reverted everything. Which programs do you want to keep, I didn't delete anything permanently.
18:49:49 <ehird> Only the ones doing badly...
18:49:54 <ehird> (And ones labeled "fail" etc.)
18:50:13 <MizardX> !bfjoust MzX >+[[>]<[-]>+]
18:50:14 <EgoBot> Score for MzX: -1 (maximum 6)
18:50:14 <ehird> (Anything with a positive score is absolutely not doing badly :P)
18:50:16 <GregorR-L> It took so freaking long to generate the report I didn't know which ones were doing badly :P
18:50:29 <coppro> !bfjoust staller [.][+.][>[-]+]
18:50:40 <EgoBot> Score for staller: -3 (maximum 7)
18:51:15 <coppro> GregorR-L: why does it rerun every program when a new one is added? Can't it just use the old data?
18:51:41 <GregorR-L> It could, but I wrote it for FYB and FYB was fast enough that that doesn't matter :P
19:00:08 -!- Nenie has changed nick to Taejo.
19:00:36 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
19:00:43 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -1 (maximum 8)
19:03:13 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
19:05:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:07:45 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[[-]>-]
19:07:50 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -5 (maximum 9)
19:08:14 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag >-(>)*9-[[-]>-]
19:08:20 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -3 (maximum 9)
19:13:10 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.drag >-(>+)*9-[[-]>-]
19:13:17 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_drag: -7 (maximum 10)
19:36:57 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.jumpndrag (>)*10-[>[-]+]
19:36:58 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_jumpndrag: -2 (maximum 10)
19:37:25 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[>[-]+]
19:37:26 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -4 (maximum 10)
19:37:34 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
19:37:41 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -2 (maximum 10)
20:11:20 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:11:31 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][+<]>]
20:11:46 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:12:04 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.stupid >>+[[+>][<]>>]
20:12:18 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
20:13:19 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_stupid: -2 (maximum 10)
20:13:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:17:34 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:27:46 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L (stupidly) reset bf joust when I told him to just remove some of the time-out, deliberately-terrible ones.
20:27:55 <ehird> So your challengers are gone. impomatic's too.
20:28:03 <ais523> I was wondering what caused the reset
20:28:08 <ais523> but all my challengers are saved on my hard-drive
20:29:06 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but he just wiped it all
20:29:09 <ehird> that's not weeding out the timeouters
20:29:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:29:44 <ais523> well, defence programs playing each other can often both wait for the opponent to arrive, and the opponent doesn't
20:30:01 <ais523> my interp detects when both interps are stuck in a tight infinite loop (i.e. [])
20:30:05 <ais523> but not other situations
20:31:22 <ehird> He said some opponents lagged up to 3 seconds.
20:31:27 <ehird> So you should really put an upper bound on it.
20:31:42 <ais523> it's deliberately large for various reasons
20:31:52 <ais523> such as wait-for-ages-then-attack-slowly programs
20:33:45 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-]
20:33:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack5: -2 (maximum 11)
20:34:00 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
20:34:25 <ehird> ais523: then don't make it overwrite the report while it calculates? :P
20:34:28 <ehird> Or is that a GregorR-L thing
20:34:45 <ais523> it's copied from the fyb interp, that does the same thing
20:34:56 <ais523> but if the report's inaccurate, not showing it seems appropriate
20:35:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: -3 (maximum 12)
20:36:00 <pikhq> !bfjoust wait_forever +[.+]
20:36:02 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -3 (maximum 12)
20:36:48 <ais523> pikhq: that doesn't wait forever, it'll suicide after a while
20:37:10 <pikhq> !bfjout wait_forever +[.[-]+]
20:37:11 <ehird> !bfjoust wait_forever [+-]
20:37:18 <ehird> (Your flag starts on.)
20:37:34 <ais523> note that falling off the end of the program isn't a loss
20:37:38 <ais523> just a detected infinite loop
20:37:54 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -5 (maximum 12)
20:38:02 <pikhq> !bfjoust wait_forever [.[-](+)*128]
20:38:11 <EgoBot> Score for wait_forever: -2 (maximum 12)
20:38:14 <ehird> someone with an IBM T221
20:38:20 <ehird> how could you use those things, everything would be so small
20:38:24 <ehird> way too high dpi and res for 22" :-)
20:39:23 <ehird> they paid $3k for it :P
20:39:39 <lifthrasiir> !bfjoust lifthrasiir.defend1 >[+>+<(+>)*2(+<)*2(+>)*3(+<)*3(+>)*4(+<)*4(+>)*5(+<)*5(+>)*6(+<)*6(+>)*7(+<)*7(+>)*8(+<)*8(+>)*9(+<)*9]
20:39:46 <EgoBot> Score for lifthrasiir_defend1: -5 (maximum 11)
20:39:48 <ais523> ehird: maybe they used large and very well-shaped fonts
20:39:49 <pikhq> ehird: You can up the DPI setting, you know.
20:39:53 <ais523> you wouldn't need anti-aliasing with something like that
20:39:57 <ehird> ais523: they didn't
20:39:58 <ehird> http://codehaus.org/~topping/screen.JPG
20:40:02 <ehird> regular windows xp font sizes
20:40:07 <ehird> which are tiny even on this 100dpi display
20:40:14 <ehird> their IDE has a tiny font size too
20:40:43 <pikhq> I've got larger fonts in my terminal.
20:40:50 <pikhq> And that's a freaking 9 point font!
20:41:23 <pikhq> ... And that's a 22" monitor? *Jeeze*.
20:41:34 <ehird> pikhq: I have a 165dpi display.
20:41:37 <ehird> ... it's an iPhone :-)
20:41:45 <ehird> Only 3.5" inches and 480x320, but still.
20:42:24 <ehird> I have a "bog standard" 20" widescreen iMac thingy at 1680x1050.
20:42:30 <ehird> Almost exactly 100dpi.
20:42:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wat
20:42:50 <pikhq> Similar in DPI to my monitor.
20:42:57 <pikhq> Kinda cheap monitor, but whatever.
20:43:32 <pikhq> ehird: I said *similar*.
20:43:42 <ehird> pikhq: The only range actually sold commonly is 84-100...
20:43:47 <ehird> And the difference between 87 and 100 is gigantic.
20:44:04 <ehird> Anything ~94dpi or above is hard to make out the pixels on, but below that it's quite visible.
20:44:11 * pikhq would ideally like, say, a 20" or 22" 1080p monitor...]
20:44:34 <ehird> I'm going for a 22" or 24" ... "1200p" monitor.
20:44:36 <pikhq> That's of the money-cost variety, though.
20:45:10 <ehird> Haven't decided which. The 24"s have about 94-96dpi, which means I don't have to configure that sort of stuff (since it's default on just about everything) and things should be mostly the size that everyone else sees them as, but otoh 24" is bloody huge.
20:45:29 <ehird> I mean, it might actually hurt my neck.
20:45:41 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.novoventus.com/pics/T2211x.jpg pic of a T221
20:45:45 <ehird> illegible as all fuck
20:45:45 <pikhq> I use my monitor for video display, as well.
20:45:58 <pikhq> Be nice to have something slightly larger.
20:46:13 <pikhq> But heck; in a dorm room, 19" works.
20:46:48 <ehird> I just want a high-dpi ~30" screen mounted further behind me, but alas my room does not want that in its geometry.
20:46:53 <ehird> Would be nice, though.
20:47:07 <ehird> pikhq: What was that wow to?
20:47:10 <ehird> The pic or my comment?
20:47:20 <ehird> Completely unusable.
20:47:29 <pikhq> It *could* be usable.
20:47:32 <ehird> pikhq: "The window in the top left is a 1600x1200 remote desktop. :|"
20:47:36 <ais523> ehird: why would you want a screen behind your head?
20:47:40 <ais523> you wouldn't be able to see it
20:47:57 <ehird> pikhq: THEY HAVE A REMOTE DESKTOP BIGGER THAN MY SCREEN IN A SMALL CORNER
20:47:58 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:48:00 <pikhq> Configure your DPI settings right and you'll get some gorgeous fonts.
20:48:16 <pikhq> ehird: THEY COULD DISPLAY 4 1080P VIDEOS ON IT!
20:48:27 <ehird> pikhq: Why the fuck would you want to do that.
20:48:33 <ehird> Unless you have 4 brains.
20:48:42 <ehird> WHO CARES I WANT ONE.
20:49:03 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
20:49:06 <pikhq> You could probably display most of your cable stations on it at once.
20:49:40 <oerjan> !addinterp test perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
20:49:40 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for test!
20:49:44 <ehird> ais523: remember that argument/debate we had about whether "You can X before Y" lets you do X if Y never happens?
20:49:48 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
20:49:58 <oerjan> !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
20:49:59 <ehird> ais523: it was agora-related
20:50:00 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 installed.
20:50:14 <ais523> I just don't remember the details
20:50:16 <ehird> ais523: the internets seem to agree with you (you can't do X): http://cowbird.110mb.com/185/premarital.png
20:50:18 <ais523> although I vaguely remembre it happened
20:50:29 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 deleted.
20:50:38 <ehird> Proposal: {All rule disputes are settled via reddit posts}
20:50:42 <oerjan> !addinterp test2 perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int
20:50:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 installed.
20:50:48 <ais523> ehird: also, someone tried to set up a paradox in the FRC like that once, it failed but for unrelated reasons
20:50:49 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
20:51:02 <ais523> wait, no, that one succeeded, and the judge had to keep giving provisional judgements
20:51:03 <EgoBot> Interpreter test2 deleted.
20:51:14 <ehird> pikhq: What we need is flipbook monitors.
20:51:36 <oerjan> It seems the nvg web server has suddenly decided to treat *.pl files differently. perhaps it's trying to run them or something...
20:52:21 <ehird> oerjan: did you chmod +x it?
20:52:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:53:03 <oerjan> ehird: sure, i did my testing directly in that directory
20:53:17 <ehird> oerjan: chmod -x it then
20:53:34 <oerjan> but i think it was like that previously, and they reinstalled the web server or something
20:53:40 <oerjan> it was down for a day or so
20:54:30 <oerjan> ehird: the thing is, slashes-int has the same permissions but loads as text, so it's definitely extension oriented
20:54:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: rsync and shit?
20:55:05 <bsmntbombdood> it would be cool to have them completely incremental
20:55:13 <oerjan> ehird: in fact chmod a-x helped nothing
20:55:16 <pikhq> rsync does incremental backups.
20:55:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: completely? You want to do a full one every now and then
20:55:31 * oerjan just renames to something else, they use #! lines anyway
20:55:43 <oerjan> i don't think i linked from the wiki to them
20:56:52 <oerjan> there you are. btw that directory has no index.html so you can look into it if you want
20:56:59 <pikhq> Sorry, that would be rdiff-backup.
20:57:19 <pikhq> Which makes incremental rdiff deltas.
20:57:29 <pikhq> (rdiff being the rsync delta algorithm)
20:57:42 <ehird> I might backup nightly. Since my new system will be silent enough to leave on :P
20:57:49 <ehird> Need a fuckload of external storage, though.
20:58:10 -!- azumanga has joined.
20:58:33 <ehird> haven't seen you before you new here? etc.
20:58:53 <bsmntbombdood> i can't imagine incremental backups taking that much space
20:59:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i calculated it at like 2TB
20:59:37 <ehird> i'd probably just buy 4TB of drives and stick 'em in an enclosure, since that's like $200, but drive failure.
20:59:45 <ehird> so i'd prolly want a raid 5 or sth
20:59:48 <azumanga> ehird: Yes, I read a blog post about a brainfuck battle, and a monic, both related to here, and thought that sounded like the kind of channel I might wander in and visit
21:00:02 <ehird> azumanga: Monic? Do you mean nomic?
21:00:18 <ehird> Which one was that then?
21:00:30 <ais523> BF Joust is in here, yes
21:00:34 <ais523> and it originally started in a nomic
21:00:59 <ais523> azumanga: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is the current hill
21:01:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: software raid? nonono, external enclosure RAID.
21:01:07 <ais523> and http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust are the current rules
21:01:14 <ehird> what if my heatsink explodes?
21:01:15 <ais523> which have changed a bit since when it was part of the nomic
21:01:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, external enclosure anyway.
21:01:42 <ehird> also, 1TB drive = $70
21:01:49 <ehird> 5 of them, one as RAID 5 parity = $350
21:01:54 <ehird> + minimal enclosure cost
21:02:03 * ehird calculates it exactly
21:04:15 <azumanga> So, talking about BF joust (if that's allowed!), what happens if you '-' a 0 value?
21:04:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: issue: there aren't any 5-drive enclosures :-)
21:04:23 <ehird> azumanga: we're more off-topic than not :-)
21:04:24 <ais523> azumanga: it becomes 255
21:04:25 <ehird> and it wraps to 255
21:04:31 <ais523> likewise, if you + on 255, it becomes 0
21:04:38 <ais523> that's usual behaviour for 8-bit wrapping BF
21:04:49 <oerjan> ais523: has BF joust been reddited today?
21:04:56 <ehird> oerjan: impomatic'sbloggitted
21:04:58 <ais523> oerjan: not as far as I know, but I haven't looked
21:05:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's only 3TB of storage!
21:05:26 <ais523> yep, number 20 on proggit
21:05:33 <ehird> azumanga: oh, his blog was redditted?
21:05:49 <ehird> ah, posted by impomatic himself :P
21:06:06 <azumanga> Although that post wasn't as popular as hotgoth posting it
21:06:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, there aren't many 3 ones either
21:06:30 <ais523> ooh, impomatic put the code for his jouster on his blog
21:06:36 <coppro> !bfjoust reverseattack >+[[-].->+]
21:06:36 <ais523> which means I can enter it back into EgoBots
21:06:37 <EgoBot> Score for reverseattack: -1 (maximum 11)
21:06:45 <ais523> this is impomatic's, not mine:
21:06:52 <ais523> !bfjoust shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:06:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817716067
21:07:01 <azumanga> At first I thought - would lock, but then things seemed too trivial, as you would have to all - every block you came across to 0.
21:07:05 <EgoBot> Score for shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:07:14 <azumanga> Now you get a choice between choosing to - it or + it until you hit 0
21:07:15 <ais523> the in-channel scores seem to be buggy to some extent
21:08:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: (a) $259.99 (b) it has a fucking fan, don't you think it's a little excessive
21:08:12 <ehird> well, a fan isn't excessiv
21:08:14 <ehird> ebut the whole thing is
21:08:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "Cons: Adding anything more than 2 drives kills performance and RAID10 doesn't work at all. "
21:08:41 <ais523> and impomatic's shortsword still wins overall
21:08:46 <ais523> although it isn't getting 100% wins any more
21:08:53 <ehird> ais523: I thought of an unfilled programs-warring niche
21:08:59 <oerjan> ais523: -2 is the largest score? :D
21:09:01 <ehird> Purely functional battles!
21:09:10 <ais523> oerjan: the score is actually 10
21:09:16 <ais523> just the in-channel scores seem buggy somehow
21:09:19 <ais523> and I haven't worked out how
21:09:31 <coppro> :D reverseattack is the second-best
21:10:08 <ehird> ais523: you should have named it impomatic_shortsword
21:10:12 <ehird> we started prepending our n ames
21:10:38 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_drowstrohs (>-->++)*2(>)*6([+[-]]>)*20
21:10:43 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_drowstrohs: -2 (maximum 11)
21:10:58 <oerjan> <ehird> I wrote a haskell slashes interp, and it was beaten by oerjan's which abused every feature of perl regexs
21:10:59 <ehird> ais523: although the bot should handle that, really
21:11:06 <oerjan> i didn't abuse nothing
21:11:07 <ehird> oerjan: hyperbole :P
21:11:33 <ais523> ehird: /every/ feature of regexes? that would be impressive
21:11:37 <oerjan> it's not like i'm a perl expert
21:11:45 <ehird> 487.009ehird_drowstrohs.bfjoust
21:11:48 <ehird> I AM AT THE TOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
21:11:53 <coppro> huh... shortsword was removed!
21:11:54 <ehird> where it shortsword go?
21:12:05 <ehird> ais523: how many points did it get?
21:12:07 <ehird> more or less than 9
21:12:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why did you do that?
21:12:15 <coppro> it got 9 without reverseattack being there
21:12:26 <ais523> and various programs are disappearing
21:12:32 <ehird> so reversing + and - = same
21:12:32 <ais523> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:12:36 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L is doing something, I suppose
21:12:39 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 11)
21:12:48 <ehird> up to no good, I say
21:13:23 <ehird> Mine just disappeared
21:13:36 <ehird> ais523: maybe he implemented my "eliminate sucky programs automatically"
21:13:43 <ehird> and it's removing the best contenders
21:13:59 <ais523> yep, ehird_shortsword just vanished
21:14:05 <ehird> 21:13 ehird: Mine just disappeared
21:14:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: YOU BROKE IT UNBREAK IT
21:14:23 <azumanga> !bfjoust azumanga_stupid_tape [(+)*7]
21:14:24 <EgoBot> Score for azumanga_stupid_tape: -3 (maximum 11)
21:14:44 <ehird> azumanga: That is remarkably stupid indeed
21:15:00 <ehird> Considering that it only ever hurts itself or helps itself not be defeated by 7 cycles
21:15:04 <ehird> (But lets itself be killed anyway)
21:15:07 <coppro> !bfjoust stabitty (>-)*8[>[-]-]
21:15:08 <EgoBot> Score for stabitty: -2 (maximum 11)
21:15:16 <ehird> coppro: coppro_stabitty, you mean.
21:15:27 <coppro> it'll probably be killed pretty quick
21:15:34 <ehird> nuclear fallout of some kind
21:15:42 <ais523> ooh, I see what's happened to the win announcement
21:15:55 <ais523> the way it's programmed, it counts wins as losses, losses as losses, and wins as draws
21:16:16 <ehird> the board has been 10 elements, always
21:16:24 <ehird> maybe GregorR-L just made it delete shit at random when it grows more
21:16:29 <ais523> an attempt to make it a final hill
21:16:30 <ehird> or via some algorithm that we can't figure out yet
21:16:36 <ais523> but to do that, you should delete the worst program
21:17:17 <ehird> that's what i suggested
21:17:29 <ehird> ais523: yep, the max score has always been 11
21:17:31 <ais523> ehird: that's what the code /appears/ to do
21:17:32 <ehird> GregorR-L broked it
21:17:39 <ehird> ais523: let's read egobot's cod
21:17:41 <azumanga> !bfjoust azumanga_less_stupid >+>++>--->->++>-->+++>+>->[>[-]-]
21:17:48 <EgoBot> Score for azumanga_less_stupid: -5 (maximum 11)
21:17:59 <ais523> did you know that EgoBot automatically commits the repo whenever you run bf joust?
21:18:09 <ais523> that's in GregorR's new code
21:18:09 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: all the external 4 drives enclosures are >$200
21:18:12 <ehird> his architecture must fucking suck
21:18:15 <ais523> and link is an hg repo
21:18:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: lame
21:18:29 <ehird> ais523: correction - the link is a symlink or alias to the hg one
21:18:32 <ais523> ehird: it keeps the 10 best programs in the repo all the time, or is meant to
21:18:37 <ehird> the real location is http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
21:18:51 <ais523> ehird: that's not the real location, that one's the symlink
21:19:15 <ehird> ais523: no, since that one has other, unrelated fil—
21:19:20 <ehird> all the programs' source is available
21:19:25 <ehird> that so defeats half of the tactics
21:19:39 <ais523> anyway, looking at the code
21:19:44 <ehird> with goethe-joust you had to work to find out how other programs worked
21:19:45 <ais523> it does indeed keep the worst 10 programs
21:19:47 <ehird> and how to fight them
21:19:52 <ehird> This page last ShaFuck is a variant of Brainfuck
21:19:54 <ehird> updated on that is impossible to
21:19:56 <ehird> 08 May, 2009. write, as writing any program
21:19:58 <ehird> would require breaking SHA-1.
21:20:04 <ehird> ↑ impossible? not quite...
21:20:08 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>-)*8[>[-]-]
21:20:09 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11)
21:20:10 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:20:26 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:21:00 <ais523> GregorR-L: the bug in your code: the scores are stored from worst to best, and you eliminate array elements starting from element 10
21:21:52 <AnMaster> split_by_group([], Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs) ->
21:21:52 <AnMaster> {Consts, CRefs, Adds, Subs, Muls, Mods, Divs};
21:21:58 <oerjan> <ehird> ? impossible? not quite... <-- you mean you know how? note i think he removed the 0 block possibility
21:22:24 <ehird> oerjan: by having an incredibly good supercomputer
21:22:26 <ehird> and bruteforcing it
21:22:33 <ehird> completely and utterly infeasible? yes
21:22:35 <ehird> impossible? hell no
21:22:42 -!- Taejo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:23:08 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>-)*8[>[-][+]-]
21:23:10 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:23:15 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity2: -2 (maximum 11)
21:23:15 <ehird> azumanga: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
21:23:21 <oerjan> ehird: you can bruteforce SHA-1?
21:23:22 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:23:29 <ehird> You can bruteforce anything, oerjan.
21:23:33 <ehird> Start with null string, then try \0
21:23:46 <ehird> until you get the right SHA-1 sum
21:23:55 <ehird> (as in, the one being the 20 operations you want)
21:24:51 <ais523> you'd probably only need eight strings
21:24:55 <ais523> one for each operation
21:24:58 <ais523> then you could write any program
21:25:07 <coppro> the [+] one beats defend1, but draws with less_stupid
21:25:09 <ehird> no comments allowed
21:25:12 <coppro> still loses to shortsword :(
21:25:17 <ais523> but, you could get the other 19 to cancel each other out
21:25:22 <ais523> there's a parity problem
21:25:30 <ais523> so I suspect you'd need to leave every second element at 0
21:25:37 <ais523> so you can use junk loops to waste an odd number of characters
21:25:38 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately, 19 is not even
21:26:07 <ais523> or, you could simulate 7-bit wrapping
21:26:10 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity2 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:26:11 <azumanga> Seeing as invalid characters in brainfuck are comments, I don't think shafuck would be too hard actually
21:26:12 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:26:13 <ais523> using [[ << >> -- ++ ]]
21:26:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:26:16 <ais523> and only have to deal with , and .
21:26:17 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity2: 0 (maximum 11)
21:26:20 <ais523> azumanga: comments are banned
21:26:24 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -2 (maximum 12)
21:26:30 <ehird> ais523: you don't need -, due to wrapping
21:26:34 <ehird> and you don't really need IO
21:26:39 <azumanga> Ah, didn't read carefully enough
21:26:43 <ehird> so you just need +, >, < and []
21:26:48 <ais523> hmm... it seems GregorR took out the repo autocommit
21:27:17 <azumanga> I would think there is a good chance shaC would be almost as hard to write :)
21:27:33 <ehird> There are more distinct operations to bruteforce.
21:27:34 <ais523> yes, you'd have to bruteforce for longer on average
21:27:46 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity3 (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:27:48 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:27:54 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity3: -3 (maximum 11)
21:28:01 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12)
21:28:06 <EgoBot> Score for suicide: -1 (maximum 13)
21:28:12 <oerjan> ais523: we discussed earlier the case of ShaFuck with 3 bit BF encoding and mostly concluded _that_ was close to feasible, but that the ascii with no comments allowed wasn't unless you could break SHA-1 entirely
21:28:13 <azumanga> But, there is a higher chance you will get a valid part..
21:28:27 <ais523> coppro: I want to see if suicide will end up staying in the hill
21:28:35 <ais523> or if GregorR's fixed that bug yet
21:28:40 <oerjan> because it's so incredibly unlikely you'll ever get a legal program
21:29:01 <ehird> oerjan: but not impossible
21:29:06 <coppro> wow it actually lost to MzX
21:29:27 <azumanga> I wonder what the probability a random string will contain */C/* for some character C, and not contain */ and /* anywhere else
21:29:33 <ais523> well, suicide seems to be working
21:29:35 <azumanga> Because from those, you could stitch together C
21:29:37 <ais523> it lost every single game
21:29:50 <ais523> azumanga: you'd need a /* and a */
21:29:53 <ais523> also, comments count as whitespace
21:30:01 <ais523> so you couldn't do any multi-character identifiers like that
21:30:20 <coppro> !bf coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:30:28 <pikhq> Except that one could do it with preprocessor hackery.
21:30:39 <azumanga> Yes, you could look for */##/*
21:30:45 <azumanga> and you'd need a start and finish as well
21:30:45 <pikhq> Token combining is something the preprocessor could do.
21:30:58 <ehird> that's c+cpp, though
21:31:01 <azumanga> But, if you generate random strings, you should find /*... after only 65000 tests or so
21:31:01 <ais523> ooh, the report's now staying up while other things are calculated
21:31:02 <ehird> cpp changes c+cpp into c
21:31:09 <ehird> (it is however a required part of c compilation)
21:31:13 <pikhq> ehird: The preprocessor is part of C.
21:31:18 <ehird> ais523: I wish GregorR-L would actually talk to us about this while doing it...
21:31:33 <coppro> What's the score mean?
21:32:14 <oerjan> ehird: discussing ShaFuck without distinguishing between physical possibility and abstract mathematical possibility is meaningless
21:32:21 <ehird> Amazing awesomesauce.
21:32:25 <ais523> coppro: in-channle, no idea
21:32:28 <ehird> oerjan: it is physically possible!
21:32:33 <ehird> it's just infeasible
21:32:35 <pikhq> ehird: ... Now you're being more pedantic than the average obsessive-compulsive.
21:32:48 <ais523> also, EgoBot hasn't got back to us about the coppro-stabbity program
21:32:53 <coppro> the report appears to just be not updated right now
21:32:56 <ais523> coppro: you wrote !bf not !bfjoust
21:33:06 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_stabbity (>->+)*4[>[-][+]->[-][+]+]
21:33:08 <ehird> oerjan: if you devoted the whole universe - or most of it, anyway - to the calculation of an ShaFuck program, and let it run for uncountable eons, then you could generate a program
21:33:08 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_stabbity: -2 (maximum 11)
21:33:11 <ehird> physically possible.
21:33:17 <ais523> ok, the report is blanking now
21:33:55 -!- wendy has joined.
21:33:59 <coppro> nope, suicide is still there
21:34:07 <ehird> you from impomatic's blog/reddit too?
21:34:12 <ehird> ↑ see, I'm psychic, I am
21:34:13 -!- wendy has quit (Client Quit).
21:34:21 <ehird> someone doesn't like psychics.
21:34:25 <ais523> winning the hill is getting easier and easier
21:34:31 <azumanga> I don't think it's true that SHA1 is a reversible function, so it's very faintly possible there isn't any string which hashes into valid brainfuck (extremely unlikely of course)
21:34:34 <oerjan> ehird: that is not certain, entropy does increase after all
21:34:41 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_totallynotshortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:34:46 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_totallynotshortsword: -2 (maximum 11)
21:35:00 <ais523> theory: we should all write programs which are very good, but lose to the programs there due to having subtle flaws
21:35:02 <ehird> azumanga: I'd wager a bajillion that there are such a strings
21:35:13 <ehird> oerjan: work it out ;-)
21:35:20 <ehird> first calculate the computational power of the universe
21:35:28 <ehird> oerjan: i mean, on a universal scale, SHA-1 isn't that hard to braek
21:35:32 <azumanga> ehird: Yes, but if you want to define such a stupid language, you should make sure it's at least valid
21:35:32 <ehird> 2**50 complexity iirc?
21:35:36 <ehird> there is recent research, oerjan
21:35:39 <ehird> people are moving away from it
21:35:42 <coppro> ais523: exactly how do [] factor in for timing?
21:35:44 <ehird> and it's officially recommended to upgrade to SHA-2 etc
21:36:00 <ehird> so clearly there is a general opinion breaking it is going to get easier, and if you put more or less the whole universe to the task...
21:36:09 <ais523> coppro: they both take one cycle, and look at the value at the start of the cycle; [ jumps to after the ], ] jumps to after the [
21:36:12 <ais523> it's explained on the wiki
21:36:22 <coppro> so [-] takes 2 cycles to loop?
21:36:33 <azumanga> You'd probably be better of putting all the mathematicans on earth on the task, and see if they can shake out any more weaknesses
21:36:42 <ais523> in terms of which command runs on each cycle
21:37:20 <ehird> azumanga: even so— the universe could probably crack SHA-1 quite quickly
21:37:28 <ehird> it's not as if it's the most difficult hash function to break evarr
21:39:01 <azumanga> Would be interesting to try to do shafuck with comments allowed, as that language is probably implementable (although would still take a while)
21:39:25 <oerjan> azumanga: that would be quite easy as i recall
21:39:28 <coppro> I wonder if this is just a creative suicide
21:39:49 <ehird> azumanga: er, shafuck is implemented
21:39:55 <ehird> anyway, it'd be trivial
21:40:05 <ehird> you just have to get one of the bf chars in, and avoid bf chars anywhere else in the string
21:40:10 <azumanga> ehird: I mean, it would be possible to actually write programs in
21:40:10 <ais523> how did suicide end up above MzX in the rankings, I wonder?
21:40:12 <ehird> it's the kind of thing you'd hit just hashing random strings
21:41:28 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_sleeper []+.-[>[-].+]
21:41:45 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_sleeper: -7 (maximum 11)
21:42:12 <oerjan> azumanga: 248^19/256^20 ~= 0.0021368922769481, that's the probability of hitting something that has precisely the character you want first, and the rest comments
21:42:25 <oerjan> that's essentially trivial to hit
21:42:43 <azumanga> It even more trivial than that, because it just has to be any character, without other ones
21:43:14 <oerjan> well, multiply that by 20 to put the desired character anywhere
21:43:15 <coppro> hey, my program never loses!
21:43:35 <ais523> coppro: against an antihill
21:43:46 <ehird> azumanga: that's what a comment is
21:43:55 <ehird> coppro: the worst programs
21:44:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:44:32 <ehird> it's a nice hill, ais523
21:44:39 <ehird> it probably takes more skill to beat the absolute worst programs
21:44:47 <ehird> how can you beat something that kills itself in one cycle?
21:44:51 <ehird> (beat for worseness, that is)
21:44:58 <coppro> let's try it against the sword
21:45:02 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_sleeperagain []+.-[>[-].+]
21:45:04 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
21:45:13 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -3 (maximum 12)
21:45:28 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_sleeperagain: -7 (maximum 11)
21:46:06 <oerjan> ais523: weren't the flags initialized to 128? so it would take more than one cycle to suicide
21:46:21 <ais523> oerjan: it suicides by going off the end of the tape
21:46:24 <ais523> rather than sinking its own flag
21:47:15 <ehird> ais523: another way to suicide:
21:47:31 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework ]
21:47:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_defying_the_conventions_of_antimoral_narrative_in_a_postmodernist_scientific_framework: -11 (maximum 11)
21:47:33 <coppro> is going off actually death, or is it just you wait until your flag drops?
21:47:33 <ais523> ehird: that's not a suicide, but an invalid program
21:47:37 <ais523> so it draws with everything
21:47:39 <ais523> coppro: going off is death
21:47:43 <ais523> that's how defence programs work
21:47:44 <ehird> i like my name, anyway
21:47:48 <ais523> they try to trick the opponent into going off
21:48:02 <ehird> ais523: oh, i thought they just tried to make them timeout
21:48:05 <ehird> but that makes sense
21:48:11 <ehird> (that was correcting you)
21:48:34 <ais523> basically, they exploit the two-cycles thing
21:48:42 <ais523> to leave their flag at 0 for one cycle
21:48:50 <ais523> so the opponent thinks they've sunk the flag, and continue with >
21:49:06 * coppro tries to work out a real sleeper, which was his intent
21:49:27 <ais523> coppro: ais523_defence5 is a sleeper
21:49:59 <ais523> although it tries to detect if the opponent is a sleeper too
21:50:07 <ais523> and uses a counter-sleeper strategy in that case
21:54:58 * oerjan is almost tempted to register on reddit to get rid of the crap norwegian subreddits they recently added to my menu
21:55:30 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_realsleep ([{>+[>[-]]<}]+.-)*15[>[-]+]
21:55:31 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_realsleep: -10 (maximum 11)
21:56:23 <coppro> eh, let's wait for Gregor to fix things
21:57:47 <oerjan> dammit they're all empty or just spam, except no whose top article is a month old
21:58:39 <ehird> oerjan: Register and participate in pun threads.
21:58:48 <ehird> Except always make the pun mathematics-related.
21:58:53 <ehird> No matter what the actual topic of the thread.
21:58:53 <oerjan> well that _is_ somewhat tempting
21:59:02 <ehird> Tenuous links give extra points.
21:59:31 <oerjan> except the mathematical part
21:59:44 <oerjan> unless it really fits, of course
22:02:18 <oerjan> dammit changing the language to english works for everything except that menu
22:03:04 <AnMaster> hm I think I'm writing a simple CAS here...
22:03:12 <oerjan> oh wait there's a checkbox - it worked!
22:03:34 * oerjan now can happily press technology without using the MORE link again
22:03:41 <AnMaster> what is the best way to represent a polynom in a computer, to be able to simplify it
22:03:42 <fizzie> Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04.
22:03:42 <fungot> fizzie: programmers loose their right to arm bears
22:04:02 <AnMaster> currently I represet it as a tree of operations.
22:04:35 <AnMaster> (and references and constants and so on)
22:04:35 <fizzie> (Now some sleep, wake-up time in order to catch the plane is in four hours.)
22:04:52 * AnMaster thinks either oerjan or ais523 should know more about this.
22:05:11 <ais523> AnMaster: polynomials are often represented as a list of coefficients
22:06:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: you might want to keep associative operations such as addition and multiplication with lists at their level
22:06:44 <oerjan> and possibly sort the lists
22:06:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I want to constant fold as much as possible too
22:07:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you would traverse the lists for the parts that are constants
22:08:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just that with (a+b)+(c+d), mathematically a,b,c and d are mostly at the same level
22:08:31 <oerjan> also, you may want to treat subtraction as addition of a negative, for related reasons
22:09:09 <AnMaster> you can't represent 5*(a + 4) + 9 * (a + (4 * c)) as a polynom right?
22:09:20 <oerjan> and division as multiplication by ... hm, you could actually use a standard quotient of products thing
22:09:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: well after rearranging, of course you can
22:10:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, and that is probably what my question is really about
22:10:33 <AnMaster> given such an equation, how would you in a computer program turn it into a simplified polynom form
22:10:50 <AnMaster> equation isn't right word is it?
22:11:11 <oerjan> term? after using distributive law enough you should have a sum of products
22:11:22 <AnMaster> if that is the English term for it
22:12:30 <oerjan> on the other hand, using the distributive law where it _doesn't_ help can be expensive
22:12:38 <oerjan> such as when factorizing polynomials
22:12:58 <oerjan> because distributivity is not easily reversible
22:13:26 <oerjan> but grouping associative operations is harmless in comparison
22:15:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:26:33 * AnMaster now wonders how to best code the distributive law in software...
22:27:33 <ais523> AnMaster: you have powerful pattern matching, don't you?
22:27:36 <ais523> you could just pattern-match it
22:32:55 * oerjan notes that this is essentially sequence in the [] monad *ducks*
22:33:48 <oerjan> mind you that is assuming it's a sum of a list whose elements are each products of a list
22:34:06 <oerjan> er the other way around
22:34:10 <AnMaster> how do you represent division, in general...
22:34:24 <AnMaster> multiply by inverse would work I guess
22:34:42 <AnMaster> (if it can be constant folded that is)
22:34:43 <oerjan> if you have division it's not a polynom any longer >:)
22:35:16 <oerjan> however you frequently simplify it to a single division of two polynoms
22:35:42 <AnMaster> maybe better would be to simplify general expressions... hm
22:36:06 <AnMaster> (possibly turning it into polynoms, if it is possible)
22:37:13 <oerjan> there are of course an infinite number of additional rules to use as you add an infinite number of additional functions...
22:38:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm? You mean like handle sqrt(), sin(), cos() and so on? Not needed here. Just need to handle + - * / mod
22:39:25 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:39:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I'm working on known integers
22:39:48 <oerjan> if you do integer stuff you need to be much more careful with /
22:40:38 <ehird> 22:03 fizzie: Since you people seem to be present here right now; [in case there are fungot-related issues or whatever] if someone happens to wonder why I don't seem to be here; I'll be away from the internets (silly phone doesn't do wifi, roaming-gprs is overly expensive, don't want to carry any unnecessary stuff) vacationing in Italy for 2008-05-24 -> 2008-06-04. ← why would you ever leave finland
22:40:39 <fungot> ehird: you could read from files *shrugs*... but it does matter in that signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, instead of
22:40:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yes I need to take care of when it isn't divisable.
22:42:52 <oerjan> if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic
22:43:02 <ais523> which is easy in C, just use unsigned char
22:43:15 <ais523> and is relatively easy in many other languages
22:46:51 <oerjan> / still is hairy though. modular inverse generally exists when the divisor is odd, otherwise it gets even hairier
22:47:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:48:27 <zzo38> Even User:Patashu has ask if I was submit interpreter to golf.shinh.org and I try, but I can't!
22:49:06 * oerjan guesses interpreters are added on a case by case basis?
22:49:36 <zzo38> But they won't even answer it.
22:51:40 <zzo38> You look at "WHOIS shinh shinh" they are idle for 132416 second (1.5 days approx) Can you try to send message later please? Because I can't.
22:51:49 <oerjan> btw you are not registered. are you aware that unregistered users generally cannot send private messages on freenode?
22:52:29 <ehird> zzo38: well, shinh might just be doing other things...
22:52:33 <zzo38> It seens to work I sent to "oerjan" the CTRL+A PING and reply.
22:52:42 <ehird> ctcp != other private messages
22:52:48 <ehird> zzo38: Say "hi" to me in /msg
22:52:54 <ehird> Then tell me when you have in here
22:53:00 <ehird> I'll tell you if I've got it
22:53:06 <ehird> zzo38: PRIVMSG ehird :hi
22:53:20 <oerjan> shinh's idling does fit a weekend break pretty well, doesn't it
22:53:31 <zzo38> I can send messages to PocketMonsterIRC on Freenode and also multiple widnows I have connected is that because of the same address or something like that?
22:53:46 <ehird> it worked your message to me
22:53:52 <zzo38> It send the message OK?
22:53:57 <oerjan> zzo38: there's a flag people can set whether they want to accept unregistered pms or not
22:54:02 <ehird> zzo38: yes, although see oerjan
22:54:08 <ehird> shinh may have set the flag, or may just be busy doing other things, etc
22:54:14 <ehird> zzo38: he may have an email address
22:54:31 <zzo38> The help on this IRC won't list any user flags and modes only the list of commands.
22:54:52 <ehird> zzo38: it's in the connect splurge
22:54:59 <zzo38> I even tried on the channel before and still got no reply on the corresponding channel either
22:55:22 <zzo38> Is there a way to repeat the connect text before the MOTD
22:55:37 <ehird> and /shrug, people are just busy, doing other things, can't help, etc
22:56:12 <zzo38> I should just reconnect in other window to read it
22:56:28 <oerjan> zzo38: btw there is a MemoServ, although i've never used it, i don't know if it works when people are just idle and not logged off
22:56:46 <ehird> only when they log in, I think
22:56:55 -!- azumanga has quit.
22:57:58 <zzo38> I didn't see a list of the user-modes
22:58:14 <zzo38> How can MemoServ function be activated
22:58:20 <ehird> PRIVMSG MemoServ :HELP
22:58:27 <oerjan> zzo38: i saw about this flag in the freenode faq on freenode.org, i think
22:58:40 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 004 aaaaaaaaaaa pratchett.freenode.net hyperion-1.0.2b aAbBcCdDeEfFGhHiIjkKlLmMnNopPQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ01234569*@ bcdefFhiIklmnoPqstv
22:58:42 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server
22:58:46 <ehird> :pratchett.freenode.net 005 aaaaaaaaaaa SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server
22:58:47 <zzo38> O thanks that helps.
22:58:49 <ehird> that contains the modes ... somewhere
22:59:22 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it's that long alphabet list
22:59:43 <oerjan> or wait there's also the CHANMODES list
23:00:29 <oerjan> lambdabot was nice, it told about messages when you talked again
23:00:33 <zzo38> I can't send by MemoServ because I am not log in
23:00:42 <oerjan> but of course it only works for the channels it's in
23:01:21 <zzo38> Can someone else try to send the message to them (using any method of communication) about this FlogScript one day later on when you think it is a good time to do so?
23:01:24 <ehird> zzo38: why not log in?
23:01:27 <oerjan> zzo38: well that sort of makes sense, since otherwise it would be a way around the flag (which is mostly antispam measure, i think)
23:01:39 <zzo38> Because I can't log in.
23:01:53 <ehird> PRIVMSG NickServ :REGISTER insertapasswordhere
23:02:00 <ehird> PRIVMSG NickServ :IDENTIFY insertthepasswordhere
23:02:06 <ehird> or when you connect
23:02:08 <ehird> PASS insertthepasswordhere
23:02:09 <zzo38> I have the user and nick command, I try help but they don't list the command of login do I need a password also
23:02:20 <ais523> zzo38: you log in by sending a private message to NickSer
23:02:27 <ehird> ais523: or PASS on login
23:02:37 <ais523> yes, or by using PASS before USER and NICK on login
23:02:59 <zzo38> Do I need to give the password at both the connection and NickServ? Maybe I can try to get help of NickServ
23:03:00 <oerjan> zzo38: but you need to register with NickServ before the PASS will work later
23:03:17 <ais523> zzo38: one or the other
23:03:21 <oerjan> zzo38: no just one once you have it up and running
23:03:24 <zzo38> O, there's the help message
23:03:29 <ais523> but you need to create your account with NickServ, you can't create an account during connection
23:04:26 <zzo38> What necessary information is there to know before creating the account? Does it expire sometimes, or anything else that would be relevant to know
23:04:40 <oerjan> zzo38: it expires after 60 days unused
23:05:02 <zzo38> So I would need to register again? Do I need e-mail to register
23:05:05 <ais523> on Freenode, it expires if it's unused for 60 days, and someone requests it to be expired
23:05:17 <ais523> and you don't need an email to register here, or at least didn't when I registered
23:05:33 <zzo38> O, so only if someone requests it after 60 days.
23:05:34 <oerjan> my nick was someone else's expired nick when i joined
23:05:53 <zzo38> Now, how to compile rawirc in Windows so that it can use color-codes and stuff like that (but make it compatible with Linux also)?
23:06:13 <oerjan> zzo38: you can register you email to get sent a new password if you forget it though, iirc
23:07:14 <zzo38> I want to make rawirc run on Windows and including display asterisks if you type in the PASS command, I don't want it to display my password on the screen
23:07:42 <zzo38> I would use rawirc if I can compile it. On Linux it would be easy to compile but I don't currently have Linux
23:08:11 * oerjan knows nothing about rawirc
23:09:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Gregor wrote it.
23:09:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:09:43 <ehird> zzo38: you'd have to modify it
23:09:46 <ehird> instead of justcompiling it
23:09:49 <zzo38> rawirc is a simple C program with escape codes for colors. But Windows doesn't have escape codes for colors, and anyways it is a bit harder to compile a C program on Windows because you have to check for correct library and stuff like that. Or, will it compile correctly on Cygwin? I have Cygwin also.
23:09:54 <pikhq> It's basically telnet with IRC highlighting and a couple of shortcuts for common IRC commands.
23:10:04 <Sgeo> ehird, I was close to googling that reference before remembering where I saw it from
23:10:05 <ais523> zzo38: Windows can handle VT-100 escape codes in its terminal
23:10:12 <ehird> Oh, rawirc highlights?
23:10:13 <pikhq> zzo38: I'd imagine it'd work right in Cygwin.
23:10:32 <pikhq> ehird: That's half the point.
23:10:44 <zzo38> If I just go to Cygwin and use the gcc command will it work, or does it need to be indicated the library to link with?
23:10:54 <ehird> pikhq: Does rawirc automatically talk to the current channel if your command is inapplicable? That's basically the only thing I need in a client :P
23:10:57 <ehird> zzo38: No libraries are used.
23:11:11 <ehird> gcc rawirc.c -levent -o rawirc
23:11:34 <zzo38> OK thanks for telling me what parameters it need
23:11:51 <pikhq> It's in the comment block at the start.
23:12:30 <zzo38> ehird: No it doesn't talk to current channel automatically. IFMUD does do that and I really don't like that feature of IFMUD. In IFMUD a " mark indicates saying text so I don't want to repeat the command that is wrong to public
23:12:56 <ehird> Yeah, but it's irritating having to type PRIVMSG #esoteric : all the time.
23:13:16 -!- cscotta has joined.
23:13:20 <zzo38> ehird: I think rawirc even currently push CTRL+P for the macro PRIVMSG so that you don't have to type every time
23:13:34 <ehird> Ctrl-P #esoteric :is still pretty bad
23:13:40 <ehird> You new? from reddit? impomatic's blog?
23:13:42 <zzo38> I know in the Windows command window it accepts F2 to repeat up to and not including the indicated character (a colon in this case).
23:13:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> it worked your message to me <-- there is a mode for it. +E iirc
23:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: as oerjan said before and after
23:14:20 <zzo38> Still, I will improve rawirc with the ability to write more macros in the configuration file, so that you can make macro for more things.
23:14:30 <cscotta> ehird: Hi - yep, saw it on the blog via proggit. Figured I'd drop in to check out the madness ;-).
23:14:52 <ehird> cscotta: Currently, it's incredibly broken, in that it retains the 10 _worst_ programs, and the score display is all wrong
23:14:59 <ehird> It'd be fixed, except GregorR-L seems to be sleeping or something.
23:15:15 <ehird> However, if you want to compete with the worst programs, feel free. !bfjoust program code, and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
23:15:40 <zzo38> In netcat I just type F2 colon colon to get the writing "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" repeated for me if that is the last command, and if it isn't I will use arrow keys to select one
23:15:48 <AnMaster> <oerjan> if this is BF then your mods are probably all by 256 and you may want to be doing all the calculation in (mod 256) arithmetic <-- yep. And yes division and mod are hairy. I don't even know how to detect loops that do that yet. I just want to be prepared for when I do. esotope-bfc's Expr class can theoretically handle / and mod too, but last I looked such expressions were never generated iirc
23:15:55 <cscotta> ehird: thanks. working on another project at the moment, but i'll check it out.
23:16:17 <zzo38> But only windows netcat. On Linux it is necessary to use readline library
23:16:33 <zzo38> And I'm not even sure what the special key-codes are for readline library anyways.
23:16:47 <ehird> Ctrl-A for start of line, Ctrl-E for end.
23:16:50 <ehird> Up goes up in history, down down.
23:16:54 <ehird> Left and right go left and right.
23:17:09 <zzo38> Can it do like F2 in Windows does? I'm just curious
23:17:30 <ehird> It's exactly what F2 does on Windows, I think. ais523 might know.
23:17:55 <ais523> I don't know what F2 does in Windows
23:18:02 <ais523> it tends to differ from program to program
23:18:14 <ais523> and I don't know what it does in Windows terminal
23:18:30 <ais523> cscotta: also, [[e:BF Joust]] is the rules
23:18:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:18:50 <ais523> err, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
23:19:00 -!- ais523 has set topic: We Conjure the Spirits of the Computer with our Spells | You mean we've been on reddit /twice/ now? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:19:09 <ehird> Three times, maybe.
23:19:17 <ehird> Also, impomatic was on reddit.
23:19:20 -!- impomatic has joined.
23:19:38 <oerjan> ah the villain appears
23:19:49 <ais523> the hill's been "fixed" to be finite
23:19:49 <ehird> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esolangs.org
23:19:58 <ehird> plus 1, for impomatic's
23:20:01 <ais523> ehird: #esoteric the channel, I mean
23:20:07 <ais523> and I told him on his blog
23:21:17 <ais523> I tried, but then I realised I could never get blogspot to work
23:21:35 <ehird> heh, one of those submissions was me
23:21:44 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ ← terribly popular
23:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird more: http://www.reddit.com/domain/esoteric.voxelperfect.net
23:21:57 <ehird> AnMaster: true 'nuf
23:21:58 <impomatic> Oh? It works in most browsers. Should even allow anonymous replies
23:22:09 <ehird> impomatic: ais523 is probably using w3m or lynx or something
23:22:16 <ehird> or some firefox extension like NoHTML or something
23:22:35 <ais523> doesn't work in Firefox (even messing with NoScript to allow things) or Epiphany default install
23:23:02 <ehird> you mean doesn't work on your firefox
23:23:13 <impomatic> Finite is good :-) At least the rubbish programs will get pushed off instead of sitting there forever
23:23:23 <ehird> impomatic: the good programs, you mean
23:23:26 <ehird> due to the brokenosity
23:23:29 <ais523> well, atm the good programs are getting pushed off
23:23:38 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
23:24:30 <zzo38> Like, even, removing first line of input with FlogScript program )(;
23:24:43 <zzo38> And to duplicate each line: ".P,
23:24:53 <ehird> ais523: http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid ← sounds even nicer than the forte hello world
23:24:56 <impomatic> I've got copies of all the programs from yesterday
23:25:40 <ais523> ehird: the forte one is shorter, I think
23:25:48 <ehird> this one is prettier
23:25:52 <ais523> it's a different style
23:25:56 <zzo38> One day I will use Linux instead. But not today. However I don't like the one that already exist so I will write my own Linux distribution and window manager and stuff like that.
23:26:08 <ehird> zzo38: have fun with that
23:26:35 <zzo38> I even wrote my own web-browser software so probably I can write a window-manager also
23:26:52 <ehird> is modifying an existing browser a bit really making a web browser from scratch?
23:26:56 <pikhq> It helps to start using Linux so you have reason to write a window manager.
23:26:59 <ehird> but the hard part is the whole distribution thing
23:27:03 <ehird> will you write your own package manager too?
23:27:08 <ehird> and a complete set of packages?
23:27:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:27:14 <zzo38> O, and I should also write the widget-set, it could be based on the original Xaw widget set, but you can't tell the difference very easily each widget so I can use colors for tell the difference
23:27:25 <zzo38> What's a build farm
23:27:26 <pikhq> ehird: A package manager isn't hard to do.
23:27:31 <pikhq> Granted, a *good* one is damned hard...
23:27:44 <ehird> zzo38: by making your own widget set, you have just made every other application in the world not fit in with the widget set.
23:27:49 <pikhq> zzo38: You are reinventing the wheel poorly.
23:27:58 <ehird> zzo38: i propose that you invent your own computer and electronics too
23:28:03 <ehird> also, fundamental physics
23:28:04 <ais523> actually, firefox will try to use native widgets, I think
23:28:15 <ehird> ais523: i doubt it'll do that if he makes up his own widget set.
23:28:22 <ais523> it could be fun if it did, though
23:28:35 <ais523> my guess is it'll try, but not necessarily succeed
23:28:43 <ehird> ais523: it has a predefined set of widget sets
23:28:44 <pikhq> ais523: That's because Firefox has Cocoa, GTK+, and Win32 widget backends for XUL.
23:28:46 <ehird> not any heuristics or anything
23:28:59 <pikhq> (Qt widgets are a work in progress)
23:29:32 <zzo38> And my own Linux will have no icons. We don't need any icons. And scroll-bar can be left-mouse-button to up/left, right-mouse-button right/down, middle to select the exact position. And the window decoration needs only one thing, a title bar with no icons or buttons. You can different click, single or double and keyboard modifier keys to change function. Also use LOGO+other keys for commands in the window manager
23:29:53 <ehird> zzo38: Ohhhkay have fun with that I'll see you in a few years.
23:30:01 <pikhq> zzo38: What benefit do you get out of using Linux?
23:30:15 <ehird> pikhq: Presumably he can't micromanage Windows.
23:30:16 <ais523> LOGO in the window manager?
23:30:20 <pikhq> You're writing everything but Linux, GCC, Gas, make, autoconf, autotools, and coreutils.
23:30:21 <ehird> ais523: he means windows logo key
23:30:29 <ais523> I like my interpretation better
23:30:39 <ehird> zzo38: X is the thing that manages windows and drives the display and graphics card
23:30:42 <pikhq> ... At which point, why even keep X?
23:30:42 <ehird> you want to rewrite that too, right?
23:31:04 <zzo38> Linux is much better than Windows and Linux is even FOSS also! But I don't like the modern widget-sets and modern window-managers and stuff so therefore I have to write my own. But I can make improvement of it, like color to indicate what type of widget it is, and so on.
23:31:27 <zzo38> By LOGO I mean the LOGO key (also called the WINDOWS key or the WIN key)
23:31:39 <ais523> zzo38: it's called "super" on Linux
23:31:45 <zzo38> Everything is still using X so therefore X should still be used
23:32:04 <ehird> zzo38: everything's using non-zzo38-widgets
23:32:10 <ehird> so therefore they should be used instead too
23:32:21 <ehird> everything's also using non-zzo38 window managers, too
23:32:29 <zzo38> And the CONTEXT key (also called the APPLICATION key by Microsoft documentation, but I call it the CONTEXT key) called something else in Linux?
23:32:37 <ais523> window manager doesn't normally matter for compatibility, though
23:32:42 <ais523> unless it tries to do compositing
23:32:49 <pikhq> zzo38: That's the menu key.
23:32:55 <ais523> ehird: it's the one with a symbol looking like a mouse pointing at a menu
23:32:59 <ehird> how on earth is that a "context" ke
23:33:06 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know what it's called
23:33:09 <pikhq> ehird: Pulls up the context menu.
23:33:09 <ais523> ehird: "context menu key"
23:33:12 <ehird> AnMaster: zzo38 is always serious :-)
23:33:25 <zzo38> But if I can change the keyboard I would just write the words LOGO and CONTEXT on those keys instead of having pictures which may be trademarked or copyrighted
23:33:38 <ehird> to represent a logo being on it
23:33:53 <ais523> ehird: deliberate misspelling?
23:34:04 <pikhq> zzo38: With all the effort this will involve, why bother writing it on Linux?
23:34:05 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I know someone more extreme than me:
23:34:05 <pikhq> Write it on Plan 9.
23:34:05 <pikhq> It needs a good DE.
23:34:07 <ehird> ais523: Paula Bean
23:34:13 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, rio is perfect.
23:34:16 <AnMaster> ehird, <Zaba> AnMaster, everything I need a window manager to do is spawn me a terminal or two <Zaba> AnMaster, everything can be launched from a terminal <Zaba> and that also doesn't require some cryptic menus or some such <Zaba> moving *shudder* mouse
23:34:18 <ehird> Or near perfect, at least.
23:34:19 <ais523> yes, I know what the typo means, but it's like the AGAINT thing
23:34:23 <pikhq> ehird: As a window manager, sure.
23:34:29 <ais523> if a typo has its own meaning, but is plausible, how do you know if someone meant to make it?
23:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the thoughtprocess behind ratpoison.
23:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: mouse-haters should be shot. by mice
23:34:49 <zzo38> With different window-manager and widgets and stuff, other software on Linux and with X can still work OK. But if it is not X then it will stop working.
23:35:03 <ehird> ais523: you can't. I vote AGAINT your thought process
23:35:08 <ais523> zzo38: why don't you port Cygwin to Linux?
23:35:17 <ais523> that way you can emulate X, for X-dependent programs
23:35:22 <ehird> The universe just exploded.
23:35:34 <ais523> ehird: after all, WINE's been ported to Windows...
23:35:47 <pikhq> zzo38: Y'know, the alternative graphics layers implement X.
23:35:47 <zzo38> There is no point to port Cygwin to Linux, just recompile the program on Linux and it should work
23:35:59 <zzo38> What are "alternative graphics layers"
23:36:08 <pikhq> Y Windows, DirectFB.
23:36:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also he is always concerned about having un-needed apps installed. Trying to remove everything un-needed. All the time. (Personally I only clean up no longer used programs and such when disk space starts getting low... about twice / year)
23:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: sounds like a person obsessed with administrivia
23:37:00 <ehird> AnMaster: just don't let him know about this place and I'll be just fine
23:37:04 <pikhq> Sounds like a person that just needs to shut up and use Gentoo.
23:37:23 <ehird> yeah Ic ould have guessed that
23:37:26 <AnMaster> has about 100 packages in world.
23:37:28 <ehird> he's exactly the type to use gentoo
23:37:31 <pikhq> Emphasis on the "shut up" bit.
23:37:39 <ehird> That's a really minimal Debian server install.
23:37:45 <pikhq> ehird: Not including dependencies.
23:38:22 <ehird> wow, people actually use directfb
23:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, on gentoo the world file is a list of packages you installed explicitly.
23:38:37 <pikhq> I seem to have 363 packages in world.
23:38:48 <AnMaster> # wc -l /var/lib/portage/world
23:38:55 <zzo38> Porting WINE to Windows is a bit useful because some of the stuff is used in ReactOS also
23:39:15 <ais523> zzo38: not just that, some windows programs work better in WINE than in Windows
23:39:38 <ehird> I've used mingw on os x befor
23:39:39 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Zaba, what about looking at images. <Zaba> AnMaster, usually, fbi from fbida, but when in X, feh <AnMaster> browsing the web? <Zaba> AnMaster, mostly w3m, but when in X, firefox
23:39:42 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, sometimes it actually does. And I don't know why
23:39:46 <ehird> and mingw is a port of gcc to windows
23:39:53 <ehird> I used it to compile a program for a windows user
23:39:55 <AnMaster> yes, he doesn't normally use X even
23:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: can I stab him?
23:40:14 <pikhq> ehird: I encourage it.
23:40:35 <ehird> pikhq: thank you for your support. can I have a stabbing device?
23:40:48 <ais523> if you like pointless ports, I'll point out that mingw's been ported to cygwin
23:41:02 * pikhq tosses ehird a comprehensive documentation on C++ and a knife
23:41:03 <AnMaster> ehird, he is actually quite nice to talk with when he doesn't talk about such things. Like when he talks about C programming or other stuff instead.
23:41:13 <pikhq> The C++ documentation is for optional bludgeoning after you stab.
23:41:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I will tell him about dvtm next time I see him!
23:41:31 <ehird> AnMaster: i can imagine his attitude to c programming
23:41:36 <ehird> remove everything but inline assembly!
23:41:41 <ehird> that's all I need a c compiler to do
23:41:43 <ehird> no cryptic manuals
23:41:46 <pikhq> Must make IOCCC seem sane.
23:41:47 <ehird> or *shudder* command line options
23:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, portable, clean code. Hates macros.
23:42:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Ooh boy. Please, sir, point me in his direction.
23:42:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: The one is damned hard to do without the other.
23:42:12 <ehird> I am absolutely not not not not going to stab him.
23:42:49 <pikhq> At bare minimum, you need macros to get dynamic libraries to work with both Win32 and !Win32.
23:43:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, with macros I meant #define foo(...), that is function like macros
23:43:05 <ehird> pikhq: Win32 doesn't count as an operating system!!11111111111
23:43:11 <ehird> A PROGRAM IS PORTABLE IF IT WORKS ON BSD 4.3
23:43:13 <AnMaster> as opposed to very trivial #include/#ifdef
23:43:14 <pikhq> ehird: It's an API.
23:43:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I think he uses FreeBSD 7.x on his other computer
23:43:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then he has massive ifdefs at every function declaration?
23:43:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that other computer being a headless mac mini acting as a server!
23:44:04 <ehird> I can't imagine him buying a mac.
23:44:13 -!- calamari has joined.
23:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, he lives in Russia. Sometimes stuff is hard to get hold of there.
23:44:25 <ehird> AnMaster: otoh, linus torvalds' wife owns a mac mini
23:44:28 <AnMaster> So I guess he took what he found.
23:44:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it's not very portable.
23:44:29 <ehird> read it on his blahg
23:44:42 <ehird> AnMaster: they make good servers too
23:44:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, portable == C89 for him probably.
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23:44:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it doesn't work on Windows.
23:44:54 <ehird> very low power consumption, very low noise, very small, etc
23:44:56 <ehird> AnMaster: no, i mean
23:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but I remember he said it was second hand
23:44:58 <ehird> mac minis make good servers
23:45:27 <pikhq> C on Windows has somewhat screwy semantics for dynamic libraries. ;)
23:45:50 <ehird> [...]Windows[...]has[...]screwy semantics[...]
23:46:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: So, how *does* he handle declspec?
23:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, he doesn't make libraries iirc
23:47:16 <Deewiant> C[...]has[...]screwy semantics
23:47:18 <ehird> that's a nice way to solve the problem
23:47:26 <ehird> by nice i mean reeeeeeeeetarded
23:47:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: So how does he handle declspec(import)?
23:47:56 <pikhq> Does he not use dynamic libraries, either?
23:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know why linux framebuffer bootup has two logos?
23:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, he hasn't had any reason to so far iirc... He is about 4 years older than you iirc
23:48:12 <ehird> instead of just one
23:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, err... I haven't seen logo in fb for ages
23:48:26 <ehird> hm 17, yeah I'd guess
23:48:35 <pikhq> ehird: That means you have two processors.
23:48:37 <ehird> very 17 sort of mode of talking
23:48:39 <ehird> pikhq: oh, does it?
23:48:48 <pikhq> It shows a penguin for each processor.
23:48:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I have 0 processors?
23:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: what if you have 8 processors (= hyperthreading)
23:49:07 <pikhq> Oh, you have that version.
23:49:09 <ehird> does it go off the screen :D
23:49:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, or I just disabled fb logo in kernel maybe...
23:49:15 <ehird> and no, I don't have any version
23:49:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it might cover the entire output? :D
23:49:36 <pikhq> ehird: Tuz is for only one version. ;)
23:49:45 <ehird> tuz is cuter than tux.
23:50:09 <pikhq> ehird: Now that you brought that up, I want to see the bootup process for a 32-core system.
23:50:42 <ais523> yep, one logo per processor
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23:53:39 <ehird> i want to go back to like the 90s
23:53:54 <ehird> and get one of the fledgling distributed OS's— plan9, say
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23:54:08 <ehird> and get like five 386s (one needs to have at least 16MB of ram!)
23:54:12 <ehird> and set it up with ethernet
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23:57:08 * pikhq has discovered the screwiest C-related language.
23:57:31 <ehird> pikhq: It's designed for interfacing C++ code w/ obj-c
23:57:36 <ehird> like using c++ libraries in a mac app
23:57:47 <pikhq> It's still hilariously screwy.
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00:44:33 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_flipflop (+-)*256[>[-].+]
00:44:34 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_flipflop: -3 (maximum 11)
00:45:32 <coppro> !bfjoust coppro_flipflopagain []+.-[>[-].+]
00:45:34 <coppro> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
00:45:43 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -5 (maximum 12)
00:45:51 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_flipflopagain: -7 (maximum 11)
00:54:14 <coppro> I don't think that shortsword is easily killable
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01:01:49 <oerjan> !bfjoust oerjan_attempt1 (>-->+>--)*2(>)*4([-[+]]>)*20
01:01:54 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_attempt1: -4 (maximum 11)
01:03:33 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
01:05:03 <ehird> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
01:05:11 <ehird> 8 | + + + + 0 + 0 + + 0 | 72.0| 7| oerjan_attempt1.bfjoust
01:05:17 <ehird> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
01:05:23 <ehird> (just putting shortsword against yours - the current king)
01:05:24 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shortsword: -4 (maximum 11)
01:05:57 <oerjan> shouldn't there be an in_egobot in there?
01:05:58 <ehird> oerjan: Congrats, you have a challenger to shortsword.
01:06:04 <ehird> that works too though
01:06:10 <ehird> oerjan: I can't get yours and impomatic's on the same hill
01:06:17 <ehird> but his gets 6 on the hill yours gets 7
01:07:07 <oerjan> well i constructed it specifically to beat it
01:07:42 <oerjan> switching + and - will probably beat me again
01:08:06 <ehird> oerjan: it doesn't beat shortswor
01:08:12 <ehird> due to the hill kicking off good ones
01:08:14 <ehird> but on the hill of crapness
01:08:29 <oerjan> oh that's even better then
01:09:15 <ehird> oerjan: but the crap hill just suicides very creatively
01:29:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hook it up to your new computer
01:29:23 <ehird> and use it as a 9th cpu
01:30:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Stick Xen on it and on your main system.
01:30:43 <pikhq> Migrate VMs back and forth.
01:37:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: turn green
01:37:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or, use it as a router/server
01:39:45 <pikhq> I need a better router.
01:40:12 <ehird> pikhq: Buy a Linksys linux one and put OpenWRT on it.
01:40:23 <ehird> Tiny, efficient, mini linux box already set up to do all that shit.
01:40:46 <pikhq> ehird: But that, and, ... IT DOESNT DO x86!
01:40:56 * pikhq currently uses a PII as a router.
01:41:06 <ehird> pikhq: not doing x86 is a huge plus!
01:41:08 <pikhq> Has the following benefits: cost me nothing.
01:41:17 <ehird> The probably-RISC architecture they use is probably way better.
01:41:25 <ehird> also, my linksys cost about £35
01:41:31 <ehird> and it wasn't the cheapest
01:42:03 <pikhq> Sure. But my current router is a massive, cheap Debian box.
01:42:35 <pikhq> And it has a whole 10G hard drive space. :p
01:42:43 <ehird> pikhq: You said you needed something better.
01:42:46 <ehird> I gave you something way better ;)
01:42:53 <pikhq> ehird: I was joking.
01:43:06 <ehird> [[Are you struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions? Maybe you have lived as a homosexual for a long time, but now are looking for a way out. You have come to the right place! For thirty years, Exodus International has offered hope and help to people seeking freedom from homosexuality. We believe and we have seen in thousands of lives that this freedom is possible through the power of God working in our hearts and minds.
01:43:09 <ehird> The bottom line - you don't have to be gay! You can lead a life of fulfillment and holiness as God intended, a life far better than what you have experienced so far.]]
01:43:15 <ehird> Ahh, some quackery with my... nighttime... lack of coffee.
01:43:22 <ehird> Well sheesh, that phrase failed badly.
01:43:29 <pikhq> Though if I had a P4 as a router, I'd be able to use it for distcc.
01:43:36 <pikhq> Which'd be kinda funny.
01:43:37 <ehird> pikhq: Why does it require P4
01:43:57 <pikhq> ehird: It doesn't, it just requires something speedy *enough* that I'd get a benefit out of it.
01:44:24 <pikhq> Especially since it'd most likely be a cross-compiler.
01:44:42 <pikhq> That is irrelevant.
01:44:58 <pikhq> gcc targetting x86_64 is just as fast as targetting x86.
01:45:13 <pikhq> Which is just as fast as it targetting, say, PDP11.
01:45:27 <pikhq> With the BSD ABI instead of the Sys V one.
01:45:35 <ehird> pikhq: actually, more complex architectures may take more time
01:45:55 <pikhq> ehird: x86_64 isn't significantly more complex than x86, anyways.
01:46:00 <pikhq> So in that case, it's irrelevant.
01:46:19 <pikhq> (in a way, it's simpler. More registers makes the register allocation very happy)
01:47:52 <bsmntbombdood> there's still a ridiculously small amount of registers
01:47:52 <pikhq> Speaking of. That's the best thing about x86_64. More registers.
01:48:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yes, but less ridiculously so.
01:48:34 <pikhq> They didn't do much else.
01:48:47 <pikhq> 64-bit addresses. Whoo.
01:49:02 <pikhq> It'd be much nicer if they, say, decided to go for 64 registers, though.
01:49:21 <pikhq> Oh, right. They also added 64-bit arithmetic.
01:49:44 <bsmntbombdood> sha512 is faster than sha256 on a 64 bit processor
01:49:48 <pikhq> Though it has one major flaw.
01:50:20 <pikhq> Imagine if it had a completely different instruction set in long mode? :p
01:50:49 <ehird> i want to become an intel strategist and devise a plan to replace x86 incrementally
01:51:03 <ehird> one step at a time so nobody knows what's hitting the,
01:51:13 <pikhq> I want to become an AMD strategist so I can coordinate.
01:51:16 <bsmntbombdood> mostly it's the backwards compatibility that sucks
01:51:51 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: And its backwards compatibility is the reason for everything in it.
01:52:18 <ehird> pikhq: 'cept, if Intel makes popular extensions to x86, AMD pretty much has to adopt it
01:52:23 <ehird> if AMD proposes something, Intel will just ignore it
01:52:36 <pikhq> Except in the case of x86_64.
01:53:04 <pikhq> ehird: By "coordinate", I mean convince AMD that it's a good idea at the same time you convince Intel it's a good idea.
01:53:27 <pikhq> So that x86 is replaced without *anyone* knowing what's hitting them.
01:53:48 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Intel makes Itanium and a number of microcontrollers.
01:54:16 <pikhq> AMD makes a series of common vector processors under the brand of ATi.
01:54:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Itanium_Sales_Forecasts_edit.png
01:55:27 <pikhq> They used to make some MIPS chips; that division got sold off in 2006.
01:56:44 * pikhq does a spit-take at AMDs future plans
01:56:51 <pikhq> You know the northbridge?
01:57:46 <bsmntbombdood> because that's all that the northbridge does for a core i7
01:58:28 <pikhq> AMD Fusion has PCIe lanes coming off of it.
01:59:04 <pikhq> It also has a GPU on the die.
01:59:53 <bsmntbombdood> i thought you were talking about what you would do
02:00:33 <pikhq> Talking about what AMD is doing.
02:01:11 <bsmntbombdood> putting the gpu and the cpu in the same package is going to require one badass heatsink
02:12:17 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
02:12:22 <EgoBot> ////\\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\/////\//\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\///\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\////\///\////\///\///\////\////\////\////\///\////\///\////\////\///\////\////\///\////\///\////\///\////\///\///\///\////
02:13:00 <oerjan> EgoBot: you cheater you cut it off ;(
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02:25:03 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
02:25:05 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -3 (maximum 11)
02:35:10 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity2 (>-->+)*5[[-]>-]
02:35:12 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity2: -3 (maximum 11)
02:35:44 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo.simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
02:35:50 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -5 (maximum 11)
02:36:20 <pikhq> !bfjoust why? (+)*1234567890
02:36:53 <EgoBot> Score for why_: -7 (maximum 11)
02:37:02 <bsmntbombdood> i am trying to figure out how to sort a register of 4 floats with sse
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02:53:00 <Slereah> http://www.daisyowl.com/comic_images/132.gif
02:53:48 <oerjan> as long as it isn't turtles
03:46:11 <psygnisfive> dont the first three slashes produce no change??
03:46:35 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blum_Blum_Shub
03:46:41 <psygnisfive> //... should swap nothing for nothing in ...
03:46:56 <oerjan> indeed, EgoBot cannot have given the right output
03:48:36 <oerjan> the actual first command is /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/
03:49:13 <oerjan> the whole quine is 1496 characters iirc
03:52:59 <oerjan> there was already a /// quine on the wiki, but it was in the "cheating" section
03:56:33 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss
03:57:14 <oerjan> it doesn't do that DCC thing...
03:57:56 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter2.sss
04:00:01 <oerjan> anyway the quine works perfectly from a shell, says diff
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12:55:40 <Slereah> I am Heron of Alexandria. I have a large baerd and I create matematical formluas. If you don't repost this comment on 10 other pages, I will use my primitive steam engine to induce mold in your walls.
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14:25:53 <asiekierka> I'm making a BF interpreter for the C64
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14:33:08 <asiekierka> also, found a GREAT randomizing routine that uses the C64 clocks
14:34:32 <asiekierka> not like I'll use it but hey, a great find
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14:40:56 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
14:41:47 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
14:42:26 * oerjan thinks EgoBot must be ill
14:43:05 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
14:44:11 <oerjan> looks like it may have trouble with the userinterps
14:46:31 <oerjan> !rot13 http://oerjan.nvg.org/
14:47:11 <oerjan> it seems it is having trouble with the perl userinterps
14:47:20 <oerjan> maybe it's connected to the \ problem...
14:47:45 <oerjan> !perl print "Hi\tthere!"
14:49:51 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
14:50:07 <oerjan> that also uses perl iirv
14:50:16 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
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14:53:07 <oerjan> i don't think spaces are legal
14:53:47 <oerjan> there's no separate interpreter for h, it's one perl program
14:55:15 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
14:55:44 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int
14:55:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_int does not exist!
14:55:54 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes-int
14:55:55 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
14:56:24 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
14:56:40 <asiekierka> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
14:57:31 <oerjan> it should give you a growing triangle of asterisks
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15:42:21 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
15:43:03 <oerjan> these bugs are getting darn tough, just smiling at my swatter!
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15:52:24 <oerjan> that's evolution for you
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16:06:41 <asiekierka> I SO want to make homebrew for... guess what
16:07:37 <asiekierka> sadly I can only use an emulator because the cheapest Odyssey I've found is selling at $142,50 US dollars!
16:10:24 <asiekierka> Ok, found a SLIGHTLY cheaper one, $99 dollars
16:14:46 <ehird> 00:53 pikhq: ehird: By "coordinate", I mean convince AMD that it's a good idea at the same time you convince Intel it's a good idea. ←o
16:15:28 <ehird> 00:54 bsmntbombdood: gpus don't count ← why not
16:18:21 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Itanium_Sales_Forecasts_edit.png ← i like to think this is counting total sales
16:18:28 <ehird> OVER 35 SALES OF ITANIUM
16:27:20 <asiekierka> i want to make homebrew for the Magnavox Odyssey, the only video game consoles that didn't have sound and graphics
16:27:51 <asiekierka> it had two dots and no rules, just cartridges... well, we would call them configuration sets nowadays :P
16:29:25 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: because we were tlaking about x86 replacements
16:29:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and?
16:29:53 <ehird> a gpu is quite viable for that
16:29:59 <ehird> look at the multicore explosion
16:30:10 <ehird> whatever you say, bsmntbombdood.
16:30:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tell that to cuda
16:31:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'd be willing to wager you could do rendering on a gpu, though
16:32:12 <ehird> i was responding to your firefox claim.
16:32:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
16:32:52 <ehird> not the displaying to screen
16:32:54 <ehird> the actual rendering
16:33:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and don't fucking say it's not slow, go compare curl and firefox sometime
16:33:13 <ehird> rendering is a huge bottleneck
16:35:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: multithread it, oh, 8 times
16:35:12 <ehird> then multithread it a goddamn bajillion times on a gpu
16:35:19 <ehird> i'll bet $10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 the gpu kicks its ass
16:35:48 <bsmntbombdood> multithreading it 8 times is a million times easier than 'multithreading' it for a gpu
16:36:02 <ehird> that's a limitation of languages
16:37:25 <ehird> web rendering is not among them
16:37:35 <ehird> cool i've gotten myself into one of those arguments where both side just asserts shit
16:37:46 <ehird> these are always (a) fun, (b) productive
16:41:03 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8gkzd/does_anyone_know_cuda_whats_the_best_way_to_learn/c097uue
16:42:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: note— by gpus replacing x86 i do not mean in their exact current form.
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17:48:40 <AnMaster> hm where is ais when you need him
17:50:01 <ehird> Doing other things
17:59:59 <impomatic> Any news on the BF Joust hill? When it will be modified to keep the best programs.
18:01:26 <ehird> When GregorR wakes up?
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18:43:13 <AnMaster> great.... gdb itself segfaulting trying to print backtrace of segfaulted C++ program
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18:48:37 <ehird> AnMaster: attach a gdb to gdb
18:48:41 <ehird> you may need the Xzibit Edition
18:49:06 <ehird> comes with free matryoshka doll
18:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you have the memory of a sieve
18:49:32 <AnMaster> #0 _IO_vfprintf_internal (s=<value optimized out>, format=<value optimized out>, ap=<value optimized out>) at vfprintf.c:198
18:49:32 <AnMaster> #1 0x000000304ca6e60a in _IO_vsnprintf (string=<value optimized out>, maxlen=<value optimized out>, format=<value optimized out>, args=<value optimized out>)
18:49:32 <AnMaster> #2 0x000000000044ba25 in xsnprintf ()
18:49:37 <AnMaster> #3 0x000000000044bf79 in ?? ()
18:49:56 <AnMaster> #8 0x000000000054eebc in cp_print_value_fields ()
18:49:56 <AnMaster> #9 0x000000000054f1a7 in cp_print_value_fields ()
18:50:09 <AnMaster> seems to call itself body recursive quite a lot
18:52:28 <pikhq> And I'm giggling. :)
18:55:21 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
18:55:24 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -2 (maximum 11)
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19:03:59 <asiekierka> my Joust program is specifically made to beat the + part of it
19:04:06 <asiekierka> change it to ++ and my program will fail
19:05:21 <Taejo> asiekierka: but then you can just change *your* program to beat mine
19:05:55 <Taejo> by alternating, neither opposing strategy is clearly victorious
19:06:15 <Taejo> btw, any idea why my programs aren't showing up on the report?
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19:08:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Crashing GDB.
19:09:50 <ehird> Taejo: they're too good
19:09:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah. It was a C++ program... I guess that could have affected it
19:10:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still impressive.
19:10:14 <AnMaster> also... when I recompile that C++ program at -O0, it no longer crashes... HATE HATE HATE
19:10:33 <ehird> Woo, optimization changing behaviour.
19:10:36 <ehird> Gcc does that very often.
19:10:50 <ehird> *optimizations, *GCC
19:10:56 <ehird> g++ is really not a very good compiler.
19:11:08 <pikhq> ehird, does clang + LLVM?
19:11:21 <ehird> clang/llvm are generally more rigorous than gcc
19:11:24 <ehird> so i'd expect less so
19:11:41 <AnMaster> even worse... Half of the comments/types/function names in the code are in English, half in German
19:11:43 <pikhq> I suspect that that alone may be cause for clang/llvm to replace GCC.
19:11:47 <ehird> The problem with C++ compilers is that the language is such a goddamn pain and takes so long to implement that by the end you're asking for money just to heal your wounded soul.
19:12:13 <ehird> So if there's an open C++ compiler, by definition the authors' souls are intact, and therefore it must be bad.
19:12:14 <pikhq> True enough. C++ is an abomination.
19:12:31 <ehird> (Authors'. No one man could create a C++ compiler.)
19:12:32 <pikhq> And it's such a shame that we use C++, and not Objective C.
19:12:44 <ehird> apart from maybe walter bright
19:12:48 <ehird> pikhq: obj-c has a large runtime overhead
19:12:54 <ehird> it's effectively a dynamic smalltalk object system
19:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: creator of Digital Mars C/C++ compiler, and D
19:13:13 <ehird> and C++ back then was nothing like what it was today
19:13:24 <ehird> AnMaster: he's the origin of that quote saying that a new C++ compiler would take ~15 years
19:13:27 <pikhq> ehird: ... Compared to C++?
19:13:39 <pikhq> C++ has a ridiculous overhead these days. ;p
19:13:43 <ehird> C++ has no dynamic overhead for most features
19:13:50 <ehird> for instance, none if you just use classes and methods
19:13:50 <pikhq> Granted, most of that isn't dynamic.
19:13:52 <ehird> if you use those in obj-c?
19:13:55 <ehird> gigantic overhead batman
19:14:11 <pikhq> That's just a large bunch of assembly, rather than runtime library stuff.
19:14:49 <ehird> pikhq: Look up an objective-c method lookup sometime.
19:14:56 <ehird> goes something like
19:15:01 <ehird> sendmsg(a,"b:d:",c,e);
19:15:06 <pikhq> No, I mean C++'s overhead is a large bunch of assembly, rather than runtime library stuff.
19:15:13 <ehird> I'm talking about efficiency
19:15:18 <AnMaster> FUN. Now the GUI shows up in a mix of German, English, and internal variable names... Independent of the language I select in the startup menu
19:15:21 <ehird> a method call in obj-c is very expensive. in C++? 0 overhead
19:15:27 <pikhq> Objective C has a lot of overhead, but it's not an abomination.
19:16:23 <ehird> pikhq: right, it's just e.g. Factor moved to C++ recently, only using non-overheading features; couldn't do that with objc
19:16:40 <AnMaster> Actually in this program overhead would be bad. It is a "real time" simulation game... But C++ still has quite a bit of overhead...
19:16:52 <ehird> only some features
19:17:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: You're better off doing psuedo-OO with structs. :p
19:17:04 <AnMaster> ehird, virtual functions for example
19:17:05 <ehird> just defining a class, having some methods, a few templates, a namespace here and there, some references...
19:17:11 <ehird> virtual functions, yes, overhead
19:17:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, it is more readable, and easier to maintain too
19:17:17 <ehird> but the overheading features are in the minority
19:17:49 <AnMaster> Unable to load any language files
19:17:49 <ehird> pikhq: OO structs in C would work if not for one thing:
19:17:50 <AnMaster> *** PLEASE INSTALL PROPER BASE FILES ***
19:17:56 <Taejo> what is the timestep limit on bfjoust matches?
19:18:01 <ehird> (a) ONE WORD THE FORCED CASTING OF SUBCLASSES THREAD OVER,
19:18:06 <AnMaster> (why on earth, and how on earth)
19:18:20 <ehird> Taejo: like 3 seconds
19:18:29 <ehird> on a vps server thingy.
19:18:43 <Taejo> ehird: so it's a realtime limit rather than a number of steps?
19:18:51 <ehird> no, i think its a number of steps
19:18:57 <ehird> but if it's 3 seconds, that's either
19:19:00 <ehird> (a) a bloody lot of steps, or
19:19:04 <ehird> (b) a very slow interpreter
19:19:30 <pikhq> I think we can all agree that there's nothing worse in C-with-objects land than GObjects.
19:19:59 <ehird> Why did you have to say that?
19:20:03 <ehird> Those memories... therapist...
19:20:30 <ehird> pikhq: Thanks, you just cost me $5,000 for another therapist.
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19:21:04 * pikhq gets a vat of brain bleach out
19:21:44 <ehird> pikhq: btw, you can actually do struct-objects where obj->foo() works
19:22:00 <ehird> By patching some padded nops in the native code to push the object in question, when you allocate it.
19:22:39 <pikhq> ehird: Or alternately, store function pointers in the struct. ;)
19:22:50 <ehird> pikhq: ...er, that's how obj->foo(obj,...) works
19:22:55 <ehird> I was extending it to remove the redundancy.
19:23:02 <ehird> By patching the native code pointed to by the function pointers.
19:23:06 <ehird> To add obj as the first argument.
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19:54:33 <impomatic> Someone commented on my blog to tell me off for censoring Brainfuck to Brainf***! :-)
19:55:44 <ais523> yes, the correct censorship is B****fuck, so as not to offend zombies
19:56:09 <ehird> I once visited a forum that had phpBB censors set up so that fu*k, f***, f*ck etc all filtered to fuck
19:56:15 <ehird> That was quite amusing
19:56:58 <ehird> impomatic: ooh, a new OISC?
19:56:59 <impomatic> I've just been banned from a forum that censored all words containing bat, power, cave, turnip
19:57:03 <ehird> in the corewar instruction set?
19:57:07 <ais523> or BF is also fine, as thats a cross between a censorship and an abbreviation
19:57:13 <ehird> impomatic: haha. why'd you get banned?
19:57:36 <ais523> ehird: too long to type
19:57:44 <ais523> bf is fine to just slip into the middle of a message
19:57:48 <ais523> so I often use it on IRC
19:58:03 <ehird> If[condition,t,f,u]
19:58:03 <ehird> gives u if condition evaluates to neither True nor False.
19:58:15 <ehird> Mathematica. That's not how it works.
19:58:44 <ais523> ehird: did you see my Agora post about VHDL booleans?
19:58:58 <ais523> do you better understand why they're 9-valued, now?
19:59:30 <impomatic> Bathroom would be censored to ***hroom. Batch to ***ch. It's amazing how many words contain bat.
19:59:43 <impomatic> ehird: banned for complaining about censorship ;-)
20:00:01 <ehird> ais523: amusement, I assume
20:00:11 <ehird> i take it this forum has no serious topic :-)
20:00:31 <impomatic> The owner of the forum dislikes a couple of people online. On of the has a forum called Bat Cave.
20:00:32 <ais523> what might be interesting would be a forum which censored every trademark in existence
20:00:45 <ais523> impomatic: and the other one has a forum called power turnip?
20:01:38 <impomatic> A blog called Turnip of Power which is virtually devoted to discrediting the guy who runs the forum!
20:02:53 <ehird> agh! so many ads!!
20:04:02 <ehird> oh, we're talking about a spawn of a devil here
20:05:26 <ehird> impomatic: so is the forum the forum of the ad network or something?
20:05:29 <ehird> this is very complicated
20:06:48 <impomatic> I hate online politics. Bloggers are always falling out. The forum is http://forums.entrecard.com - another ad network, but the forums used to be pretty active with general blogging chat.
20:07:00 <ais523> impomatic: politics everywhere tends to be bad
20:07:11 <ehird> blogs are inherently very egotistical
20:07:21 <ehird> so it's not surprising that they're all arguing :)
20:07:26 <ais523> except games specifically based around politics
20:07:32 <ais523> where it can be enjoyable if nobody takes it seriously
20:07:41 <ais523> ehird: incidentally, has the hill been fixed yet?
20:07:43 <ais523> or is it still backwards?
20:08:40 <ehird> impomatic: so wait this forum for bloggers deliberately censors these words for no reason?
20:08:47 <ehird> i'd expect that more on a forum about random pointless stuff
20:11:06 <impomatic> ehird: it censors them because Graham who runs the forum doesn't want anyone to mention the forum / blog of the guys he doesn't like
20:11:25 <ehird> what a terribly bruteforce way of doing that
20:13:07 <impomatic> The unfortunate side effect is quite a few posts have censored words because they contain bat. It's pointless.
20:13:45 <impomatic> They even banned someone for tweeting something a negative comment!
20:14:04 <ais523> has the owner of the blog never heard of the Streisand effect?
20:14:16 <ais523> I'm sure it wouldn't take too much searching to figure out what he was trying to censor
20:14:24 <ais523> and the words being censored would be noticed pretty quickly
20:14:26 <ehird> the Corsair (company that makes RAM/PSUs etc) forums censor the URLs and names of competing companies, so you go around seeing people saying loads of asterisks and stuff while trying to explain their previous hardware, what corsair components they replaced them with, the problems, etc
20:14:31 <ehird> it's crazy ridiculous
20:14:36 <ehird> ais523: forum, not blog
20:14:53 <ais523> also, what about people using leet-speak to get around the filters?
20:14:57 <ais523> it was invented for that purpose, after all
20:15:10 <ehird> 1337speak predates filters, I'm pretty sure
20:15:12 <ais523> not sure, but I think so
20:15:58 <impomatic> http://programminghumor.blogspot.com/2009/05/introducing-nazicard.html
20:16:17 <Taejo> "Leet originated within bulletin board systems in the 1980s,[1][2] where having "elite" status on a BBS allowed a user access to file folders, games, and special chat rooms. One theory is that it was developed to defeat text filters created by BBS or Internet Relay Chat system operators for message boards to discourage the discussion of forbidden topics, like cracking and hacking.[1] However, creative misspellings and ASCII-
20:16:17 <Taejo> art-derived words were also a way to attempt to indicate one was knowledgeable about the culture of computer users."
20:17:04 <ehird> "All members are now required to express their love of Nazicard."
20:17:14 <ehird> "He loved Nazicard."
20:21:08 <ehird> impomatic: since you're a corewar/bfjoust person... any idea how a Haskell warring-programs game would work? I can't think of a way to harness the purely-functionality :-P
20:24:49 <impomatic> I haven't got much experience with funtional programming. There was a comment asking about a Haskell programming game wasn't there?
20:25:37 <impomatic> There a paper about a game called Struggle, not sure how well that would work.
20:26:44 <ehird> Perhaps something like:
20:26:56 <ehird> let ares = proga bres; bres = progb ares
20:27:03 <ehird> Then they both get the results of each other, lazily evaluated
20:27:49 <impomatic> Would this work? http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Papers/strugman.ps.gz
20:28:59 <ehird> impomatic: No. "rplaca and rplacd"
20:29:11 <ehird> Not purely functional; ordered, destructing operations.
20:32:51 <ais523> even impurely functional would give more of a clue about how purely functional would work
20:33:00 <ais523> although I do have an idea for how to do a purely functional programming game
20:33:08 <ehird> impurely functional is just restricted imperative
20:33:09 <ais523> although it wouldn't work much like corewar or BF Joust
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20:33:24 <ais523> the idea is, each program has code, and data
20:33:36 <ais523> and it has to try to recognise its data, as opposed to data produced by the opposing program
20:33:48 <ais523> each program can inspect a sample of its opponent's data
20:34:03 <ais523> it's opponent's "stock" data, as it were
20:34:17 <ais523> and has to create a modified version that will fool its opponent, but that it itself recognises as its own
20:34:22 <ais523> as well as recognising its own stock data
20:34:44 <ais523> so the idea would be to try to sneak contraband data past the opponent, whilst being able to recognise it yourself
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20:35:29 <ais523> (comparing functions is an uncomputable task, I'd imagine this for a lang something like Lazy Bird where everything is a function, so the problem is, in the absence of an ability to compare functions, how do you probe them to see what they do?)
20:36:02 <ais523> I'm not quite sure how to handle infinite loops; maybe timing out loses you points, so you could try to create killer packets that would send your opponent into a loop, but not you
20:36:05 <ais523> but that might be too easy
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20:58:38 <coppro> GregorR: you haven't fixed bfjoust yet? :(
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23:13:32 <oerjan> ^ul ((hi ehird )S:^):^
23:13:33 <fungot> hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird hi ehird ...too much output!
23:13:43 <ehird> ^ul ((hi oerjan )S:^):^
23:13:44 <fungot> hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi oerjan hi o ...too much output!
23:14:46 <ehird> dude you ruined it
23:15:09 <oerjan> no you ruined it, you cut off my name
23:15:40 <fungot> ehird: he fixed it a bit, but then i need to do
23:21:02 <kerlo> [0,1,0,1,1,1,[1,0,[0,1]],[1,2,1]]
23:21:23 <kerlo> How you write the number 1,000,000 when you don't really care whether people understand you or not.
23:21:38 <oerjan> kerlo: seen the recent /// developments?
23:21:54 <kerlo> oerjan: I've seen that non-trivial infinite loop that makes it probably TC.
23:22:06 <ehird> kerlo: e implemented BCT.
23:22:10 <ehird> Thus proving it TC.
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23:24:55 <oerjan> kerlo: also, characters other than / and \ really _are_ unnecessary :)
23:26:39 <oerjan> also, how the heck is that 1,000,000
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23:56:59 <pikhq> Delicious, delicious waffles.
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23:59:43 <kerlo> oerjan: the same way that 1,000,001 is [1,2,1,2,2,2,[0,1,0],[0,0,2]].
00:02:22 <oerjan> hm and both are unique representations?
00:03:28 <kerlo> Every representation has exactly one corresponding number. Every number has exactly one corresponding canonical representation.
00:03:56 <kerlo> Where "canonical representation" is a representation in which 0, 1 and 2 are represented as themselves, and "number" means "non-negative integer".
00:04:26 <oerjan> i am sort of guessing that the nested lists are just representations of numbers other than 0,1,2
00:04:31 <kerlo> Anyway, 1,000,002 is [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]].
00:05:22 <oerjan> they don't seem to have much in common... let me try a bit
00:05:34 <kerlo> Given this, you should be able to figure out how the representation works.
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00:07:42 <kerlo> For some values of "should".
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00:25:35 <oerjan> [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]] :: Repr
00:26:29 <oerjan> [1,0,[0,1],1,[1,2],1,1,[0,2,[0,1]],[1,2,1]] :: Repr
00:41:38 <kerlo> So, what's your idea?
00:42:10 <kerlo> I'm doing all these by hand, and I'd rather check your idea than your representation. :-P
00:42:34 <kerlo> I guess i've left out part of the "canonical representation" thing. The other part is that all lists be as short as possible.
00:45:28 <oerjan> anyway, modulus with the list of primes, take until no smaller number gives the same list
00:46:30 <oerjan> equivalently, until the product of the primes so far > the number
00:47:34 * oerjan handily already has primes = ... in his haskell scratch file
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01:55:53 <oerjan> Main> toInteger [0,0,2,[1,0],[1,0],[1,0],[1,2,1],[1,1,[1,0]]]
01:57:52 <oerjan> hideous type class abuse
01:58:00 <kerlo> That does sound hideous.
01:58:13 <kerlo> Is toInteger entirely of your own invention, not a class function?
01:58:15 <oerjan> to make numerals give lists
01:58:24 <oerjan> no, toInteger is a class function
01:59:16 <kerlo> So [something] is an instance of Num...
01:59:30 <oerjan> and Real, Enum, and Integral
01:59:32 <kerlo> And it looks like something = [something].
01:59:54 <kerlo> That's possible? type Something = [Something]?
02:00:13 <oerjan> it's just the typed representation that is equal
02:00:16 <kerlo> You can't even use synonyms in instance declarations, can you.
02:00:27 <kerlo> So what is something, here?
02:00:30 <oerjan> not in pure Haskell 98 anyway
02:01:03 <oerjan> kerlo: because i only use standard typeclasses, defaulting makes sure that the bottom level becomes Integer automatically
02:01:20 <oerjan> so that is [[[Integer]]] up there
02:01:44 <kerlo> So you must have something like instance Num a => Num [a].
02:02:02 <oerjan> and also Real, Enum, and Integral
02:02:12 <oerjan> only fromInteger and toInteger are actually defined
02:03:51 <oerjan> fromInteger n = [n',n'] where n' = fromInteger n, so it doesn't really work beyond 5 i think
02:04:47 <oerjan> i could "fix" that easily though
02:05:06 <oerjan> and toInteger = unrepr . map toInteger
02:05:17 <oerjan> where unrepr is the function doing the actual work
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02:26:28 <kerlo> Why can't you use whatever you used in Show Repr for fromInteger?
02:27:22 <oerjan> because that recursed on the parts, but i could extract the relevant bit
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06:22:00 <pikhq> Do you know where your towel is?
06:25:37 <pikhq> Patashu: Wrong answer.
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08:29:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:29:25 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
08:29:29 <fungot> asiekierka: i think the lizzard one was on thr rright approach to land...someone decided to roll up all my pennies tonight because as everyone seems to be the right ball park however, this was at and all.
08:29:44 <fungot> asiekierka: the poor people....did any1 survive?
08:29:52 <asiekierka> fungot: Yeah, but that's not the point.
08:29:53 <fungot> asiekierka: omg! he sounds like woman xd and ew to the ground.he lost site of the air bus... spicy!! wtf?
08:30:05 <fungot> asiekierka: i believe they disrespected bob dylan and a longer runway. i'd like to hear him sing something rock-ish but i loved max payne 3 ( true that jaybedwetter, smoznijism and lamewaring are still down) the whole incident by removing the flight the autopilot master control would probably grow ten fold.
08:31:04 <bsmntbombdood> fungot sounds like it should be the name of an esolang
08:31:04 <fungot> bsmntbombdood: krazybrit- liscenced? most pilots learn to spell and that was sikk crash, fucking please!
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08:40:28 <fungot> bsmntbombdood: check out the notes bang on, let alone stomp anything.
08:52:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
09:40:41 <asiekierka> to GREATLY improve the quality of the video
09:40:59 <asiekierka> (Comparing RF to S-Video is like comparing Composite to HDMI. They can't be compared.)
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11:54:36 <asiekierka> and it replied: Computation timed out.
11:55:37 <asiekierka> enter any computer architecture: the same
11:56:24 <asiekierka> I at least hope "enter any integer" works... no it does NOT!
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16:33:33 <Slereah_> http://www.underfoule.net/lhc/res/54.html
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16:58:48 <asiekierka> Someone emulated a Commodore 65 on a Commodore 64
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17:28:37 <asiekierka> Is there any microcomputer architecture to emulate on the C64?
17:28:46 <asiekierka> I wonder if an old Atari would be fun to do...
17:28:54 <asiekierka> ...because in Poland C64s and Ataris were competing
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17:57:39 <zzo38> My Cygwin doesn't have gcc do you know why?
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18:20:58 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
18:21:00 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity: -3 (maximum 11)
18:22:21 <ais523> hmm... has the hill been fixed yet/
18:22:25 <ais523> or is it still upside-down?
18:23:14 <Taejo> submit something and we'll see who gets knocked out
18:23:36 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack1 [>[-]+]
18:23:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1: -4 (maximum 11)
18:24:07 <Taejo> ais523: still upside down
18:24:15 <ais523> your good program has been pushed off the top
18:24:17 <ais523> and suicide's still there
18:24:31 <Taejo> who runs the hill?
18:24:51 <ais523> I wrote the interpreter, the rest of the code was a copy of his
18:24:55 <ais523> and he's modified it a bit since
18:25:03 <Taejo> I want to write my own, but it's exam time
18:25:08 <ais523> but he accidentally got the hill the wrong way up
18:25:15 <ais523> and I have a BF Joust interp that you can base the hill on
18:25:43 <Taejo> I wouldn't mind writing my own
18:27:38 <asiekierka> He didn't even change it after April Fools!
18:29:26 <asiekierka> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity_2 (>-->++)*5[[-]>-]
18:29:28 <EgoBot> Score for taejo_simplexity_2: -3 (maximum 11)
18:29:56 <Taejo> asiekierka: hill is upside down
18:32:09 <asiekierka> I plan to add 2 mods to my C64 tomorrow: S-Video and noise reduction
18:33:44 <asiekierka> watching "I Love Ascii 6" (the C64 demo)
18:34:05 <asiekierka> it did (accidentally?) show the polish flag for a while
18:46:17 <asiekierka> I think I will have memory from $1000 to $D000 to use
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18:49:00 <asiekierka> I could get a bit more but that'd lag it as hell
18:49:15 <asiekierka> I think, if I could hide the I/O variables, I could get to $E000
18:49:36 <asiekierka> which will get 2048 more words = 682 more commands
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18:56:53 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> oh <-- maybe it was overloaded...
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23:09:58 <oerjan> ais523: i noticed a possible error in the eodermdrome spec
23:10:47 <oerjan> you can have two open nodes that have edges between them in the internal state graph but not the match graph
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23:11:02 <oerjan> and by the description, those edges are removed
23:11:43 <ais523> hmm... I don't think they're meant to be in that situation
23:11:50 <ais523> it's a wiki, do you want to fix it?
23:17:04 <oerjan> Deletes all nodes from the internal state graph that correspond to closed nodes in the match subgraph, and all arcs connecting to them
23:17:08 <oerjan> Deletes all arcs in the internal state graph between two nodes that both correspond to open nodes in the match subgraph
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23:17:20 <oerjan> # Deletes all arcs in the internal state graph corresponding to arcs in the match subgraph
23:17:24 <oerjan> # Deletes all nodes from the internal state graph that correspond to closed nodes in the match subgraph
23:21:11 <oerjan> oh wait now there is another problem
23:21:23 <oerjan> what if that edge _does_ exist in the replacement subgraph
23:22:59 <ais523> given that redundant edges can't otherwise exist in Eodermdrome, I imagine that the two edges consolidate
23:23:51 <oerjan> i guess that's the implicit conclusion
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23:25:57 <oerjan> and then the wiki died again
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05:02:21 <pikhq> So, in theory, Unicode works.
05:03:00 <pikhq> «¡The composé key works!»
05:03:29 <pikhq> Amazing what having your local set right can do.
05:21:34 <pikhq> Unicode, I declare, is a great boon. What sayeþ ye, men and women and small fuzzy creatures, of all þat is Esolang?
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13:05:49 <lereah_> http://may.2chan.net/27/res/117551.htm
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15:43:59 * ais523 grumbles at the hill still apparently being upside-down
15:44:57 <ais523> there was meant to be a tournament running here
15:45:04 <ais523> but the current code eliminates all the good programs
15:45:06 <ais523> rather than all the bad ones
15:45:33 <ais523> well, suicide, the worst BF Joust program theoretically possible, is still there
15:45:49 <ais523> it loses every game, unless the opponent uses the same strategy, in which case it's a draw
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15:46:28 <Patashu> do you have control over the code or is it someone else's bungle?
15:46:57 <ais523> it's in GregorR (or GregorR-L) 's code
15:49:07 <impomatic> I've seen someone get a KOTH upside down before so it must be pretty easy to do :-)
15:49:25 <ais523> well, something as simple as a reversed test could to it
15:49:28 <impomatic> Hopefully it'll be fixed soon. I assume the hill will then run forever?
15:49:49 <ais523> but in this case it's the fact that an array's the other way round to what GregorR thinks
15:49:53 <Patashu> are there any 'program vs program' languages besides corewar, fukyourbrane and BF joust?
15:49:54 <ais523> and yes, probably for ages, anyway
15:50:00 <ais523> after all, the hill is still up
15:50:08 <ais523> Patashu: quite a few, I think; but only corewar is really popular
15:50:27 <Patashu> I have to agree about BF joust with other people who've noted there's only one way to go about winning
15:50:40 <ais523> the revised version, there are at least three strategies
15:50:58 <ais523> I've done quite well with defence programs, which wait to be attacked then try to trick the opponent off the end of the tape
15:51:09 <ais523> by dropping the flag to 0 for one cycle, then back up again
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15:51:51 <ais523> I think that strategy is a) one of the best, but b) very very hard to pull off well
15:52:40 <impomatic> I had a defensive program too before the hill was changed. I've got a copy of the 20 warriors from the old hill so I can resubmit it when the hill has been fixed.
15:52:57 <Patashu> any plans for more opcodes?
15:53:14 <ais523> Patashu: it just wouldn't be BF then
15:53:27 <ais523> zzo38 has a version with input from the opponent's NOPs, although I don't see the point
15:53:59 <Patashu> input from the opponent's NOPs? what does that mean
15:54:32 <ais523> Patashu: well, . does output in BF
15:54:48 <impomatic> There's a description on the discussion page of the BF Joust wiki page.
15:54:57 <Patashu> since you can simulate a NOP with <><> or whatever
15:55:08 <ais523> well, a one-cycle NOP is useful for parity reasons
15:55:20 <ais523> and messing about with <> or >< or even +- can be very dangerous in BF Joust
15:55:27 <ais523> due to the end of hte tape
15:55:58 <Patashu> it doesn't sound like a very well-founded concept in any case
15:56:18 <Patashu> since you'd never WANT to tell your opponent anything
15:56:24 <Patashu> why make a command for it? :P
15:56:50 <impomatic> I needed to use a one-cycle NOP in one of my programs to get the timing right
15:58:32 <Patashu> maybe , could get the value of your opponent's pointer or the value under your opponent's pointer or something
15:59:02 <ais523> attack5 uses quite a lot of them
15:59:09 <ais523> it's a counter-defence attack program
15:59:23 <ais523> although it can confuse about half of genuine attack programs by setting decoy cells to -6
15:59:27 <ais523> which they aren't expecting
16:00:59 <impomatic> Patashu: see http://aiforge.net for a programming games forum and about 1500 links.
16:01:18 <Patashu> fighting programmable robot games
16:01:53 <impomatic> http://www.sumost.ca/steve/games is also a decent page
16:02:41 <impomatic> There are a few which don't involve robots, but most of the ones I've looked at are similar to Corewar
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16:22:31 <ais523> impomatic: corewar question: how effective is using SPL 0, rather than a goto, to create a loop?
16:30:01 <impomatic> If you have a SPL 0 at the head of the loop and let the processes drop off the end, the loop will be 1 cycle slower.
16:30:10 <impomatic> Processes take 1 cycle to execute the DAT which kills them.
16:31:21 <ais523> if you're planning to spawn a load of processes anyway, though, it might be worth it
16:31:37 <impomatic> However, the loop can only be killed by destroying the SPL. Damaging any other instruction won't kill the loop, just damage it.
16:31:50 <impomatic> It's best to have a SPL 0 at the top and a JMP at the end :-)
16:32:27 <ais523> I was vaguely thinking of setting up some sort of huge number of imp spirals
16:32:41 <ais523> hitting thread limit, so that anti-paper strategies wouldn't work
16:32:47 <ais523> and hoping that at least one survived to overwrite the opponent
16:32:49 <impomatic> But occasionally the instructions are out of sync, but it doesn't really matter. Also it means the loop reverse!
16:34:06 <impomatic> It takes ages to hit the process limit. It's normally 8000 processes.
16:34:16 <ais523> I thought it varied by hill
16:34:20 <impomatic> An opponent can clear the core in that time.
16:34:32 <ais523> but at least, churning out your own threads will reduce the impact of a SPL-based bomb
16:34:54 <ais523> and an imp spiral swarm would tend to intrinsically dodge core-clears
16:35:01 <ais523> 2/3 chance it misses once you're down to one imp
16:35:25 * ais523 wonders what warriors do after the core-clear ends
16:35:40 <impomatic> max processes is normally the same as coresize, the the same applies to the other hills, e.g. nano hill = 80 cells, 80 cycles to clear it with d-clear, 80 maxprocesses.
16:36:13 <impomatic> They just keep clearing over and over, just in case they missed a mobile warrior first time round.
16:36:21 <impomatic> By the way, the #corewars channel has moved to freenode :-)
16:36:31 <ais523> so, is it corewar or corewars?
16:36:42 <impomatic> Unfortunately koth.org is closing down :-(
16:37:06 <impomatic> The official name of the game is Core War.
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16:50:20 <ehird> ais523: "I disappear yesterday therefore I return."
16:50:32 <ais523> it all depends on what returning means
16:53:53 * ais523 moans at the upside-down hill
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17:06:38 <kerlo> Hey, where'd my server go?
17:06:59 <kerlo> Looks like all of Slicehost is unusually sequestered.
17:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:07:00 <ais523> kerlo: well, I can log into it
17:07:02 <ais523> if it's the one I think
17:07:07 <ais523> I'm online there right now
17:07:25 <kerlo> Can you get a login prompt at s2.normish.org? I can't.
17:07:35 <kerlo> Well, now I can. Never mind.
17:07:41 <AnMaster> strong static discharge from my chair!
17:08:12 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet").
17:08:57 * kerlo successfully remembers half of his password.
17:09:09 <AnMaster> lot of static discharges here today... Strange.
17:09:14 <ais523> kerlo: do you want me to change your password, using my scammed root powers?
17:09:15 <AnMaster> from anything in metal at all.
17:09:35 <kerlo> ais523: you have scammed root powers on s2.normish.org?
17:09:45 <AnMaster> anyone has any idea for a reason?
17:09:50 <ais523> if it's a different server
17:09:53 <ais523> just on the main normish.org
17:10:13 <ehird> So kerlo's now paying $50/month so that he can develop a new normish separately on the live deployment environment?
17:10:26 <ehird> You mean like what I wanted to do originally, and was faced with "WHY DON'T YOU JUST DEVELOP IT LOCALLY FOO"
17:10:37 <ais523> I suspect the "new normish" isn't actually a nomic
17:10:48 <ais523> otherwise there'd be no point
17:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, why not develop it locally? It is a good point IMO.
17:11:21 <ais523> well, I developed the old system locally
17:11:25 <ais523> and it even works, sort of
17:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I was pointing out some hypocrisy, and I'm not exactly in a mood to go into Talk To AnMaster Very Carefully And Slowly mode.
17:11:47 <ais523> AnMaster: this is an old flamewar lasting weeks from several months ago
17:11:48 <ehird> ais523: I've been watching kerlo ask things like how to avoid SQL injection with a PHP registration system in Sine. Cringeworthy that he administrates Normish >_<
17:11:49 <ais523> so you're missing contest
17:11:57 <ehird> not exactly flamewar
17:12:05 <ais523> well, it did cause me to shun you for weeks
17:12:07 <ehird> more strong disagreement with additional fire :)
17:12:09 <ais523> which is rather out of character for me
17:12:27 <kerlo> At least I now know how to avoid SQL injection, I think. :-P
17:13:01 <ehird> Next up: How to escape HTML! With ASP.NET -or- ColdFusion -or- PHP!
17:13:06 <ais523> yes, bad-but-works way = proper escaping, good-and-works-better-and-is-easier-way = parameterized or stored queries
17:13:07 <ehird> 10 Best Javascript Libraries
17:13:18 <ehird> 50 Ways To Monitor Your Site's Uptime!!!!
17:13:28 * ehird vomits all over the blagosphere
17:13:41 <kerlo> Parameterized queries. Sounds nice.
17:14:19 <ehird> ais523: he's using PHP and uses Windows, I'm pretty sure you're wasting your time :)
17:14:29 <ais523> I'm pretty sure even PHP can do that
17:14:51 <ehird> I'm just pointing out that maybe talking about reasonable best practices and clean design is better given to /dev/null
17:15:13 <kerlo> That sounds likely.
17:15:43 <ehird> i'm staying on Actual Normish, which at least has proper unix tools instead of PHP/MySQL user registration forms.
17:16:23 <kerlo> Hey, I'm planning to have proper Unix tools as well.
17:16:40 <ehird> kerlo: The user database is in MySQL, is it not?
17:16:49 <ehird> Therefore, not Unix accounts. Therefore, no, no you're not.
17:17:28 <kerlo> Is there some magical force preventing me from having each user in the database have a linked Unix account?
17:17:43 * ehird puts his head through a wrangler to forget what you just said
17:18:09 * pikhq tries to unhear things. Unsuccesfully.
17:18:13 <ais523> actually, the correct way to do that would be to write a mysql backend that stores data in /etc/passwd
17:18:26 <kerlo> That sounds kind of weird.
17:18:30 <ehird> ais523: That is correct for values of "DEAR GOD KILL ME".
17:18:39 <ehird> pikhq: We're doomed.
17:18:48 <ehird> I'm making an underground bunker
17:19:23 <ais523> ehird: I was trying to think up the sanest way to achieve what kerlo wanted; the fact that it's insane implies the original request was insane
17:19:55 <ehird> maybe we could clone the internet, put kerlo in it, wait 3 years, then destroy the cloned internet and let him on the real one
17:19:58 <ehird> it's our only hope
17:20:35 <pikhq> ais523: The sanest way involves a PAM module.
17:20:50 <ehird> ais523: the very existence of this insane "Normish s2" may collapse the whole internet
17:20:52 <ais523> err, that reads a MySQL database?
17:20:56 <ehird> or at least severely damage it
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17:21:37 <pikhq> Not saying it's very sane, mind.
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17:22:06 <ais523> pikhq: I don't think PAM's tied into the UNIX UID system for files
17:22:32 <ais523> as in, creating MySQL table rows wouldn't magically create users for any purpose other than logging in
17:23:24 <kerlo> Okay, people who are significantly intelligent and/or knowledgeable than me. Suppose I want people to have Unix accounts and I also want to track various bits of information about those people.
17:23:40 <kerlo> Is creating the accounts and then using YAML that references their usernames the best way to accomplish that?
17:23:53 <ehird> Use proper files, dammit.
17:23:57 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:24:04 <ehird> Real, unix, plain text, lightweight-format FILES.
17:24:36 <kerlo> Is MySQL useful for its intended purpose? If so, perhaps I've forgotten what that purpose is.
17:24:48 <ehird> To be a bad version of PostgreSQL.
17:24:57 <ehird> PostgreSQL is a program whose purpose is not to be used as a replacement for plaintext files.
17:25:07 <kerlo> What is its purpose, then?
17:25:31 <ehird> Correct me if I'm wrong,
17:25:33 <ehird> but I just told you
17:26:36 <ais523> kerlo: MySQL is the C of databases
17:26:43 <ais523> you have to do everything by hand, but it can be very efficient as a result
17:26:47 <ehird> No, that's an utterly terrible comparison.
17:26:57 <ehird> It's nothing like C.
17:26:59 <kerlo> The sentence "PostgreQSL is a program whose purpose is not . . ." does not tell me what its purpose is.
17:27:03 <ais523> maybe it's the C++ of databases, as it also has a lot of useless features
17:27:08 <ehird> kerlo: whose purpose is (not ...)
17:27:21 <pikhq> Definitely the C++ of databases.
17:27:30 <pikhq> It does a lot of stuff, and does it poorly.
17:27:44 <kerlo> The thing about sarcastic statements is that they're not very useful when interpreted as the truth.
17:27:46 <ehird> ais523: C's lean, mean, efficient, it has a clean design, and does what it does completely well. MySQL has its legs the wrong way round. It's not even really fast. It tries to do things and does them all badly. It's built on top of a bad design.
17:27:52 <ehird> It keeps trying to do more things, and it keeps failing at them.
17:29:01 <kerlo> ehird, I suppose you're the kind of person who would stop using a system if new features were added and those features sucked.
17:29:37 <ehird> I suppose you, kerlo, are the kind of person who will jump to conclusions without basis and then state these matter-of-factly in a deliciously non-sequitur manner.
17:29:54 <ehird> Call me crazy, but.
17:30:48 <kerlo> That may be true, but I'm just saying that to pacify you, not because I really believe it, not that I don't believe that I believe it.
17:30:51 <pikhq> MySQL does most everything it does poorly.
17:35:31 <kerlo> Well, I refuse to use a database system whose name contains four consonants in a row.
17:35:52 <ehird> kerlo: "unix" does not have four consonants in a row.
17:36:12 <kerlo> And now for something not blatantly false:
17:36:39 <kerlo> Would you (collectively) recommend switching to PostgreSQL, then?
17:36:55 <ehird> I would recommend using Unix properly, dammit.
17:37:51 <kerlo> So, suppose hypothetically that I want to store people's usernames and passwords.
17:38:02 <ehird> You would use proper Unix accounts.
17:38:14 <kerlo> Okay, suppose I do that.
17:38:22 <pikhq> And you wouldn't store their passwords, you'd store the hash of their passwords.
17:38:31 <ehird> pikhq: One step at a time.
17:38:37 <kerlo> That's precisely why I said "hypothetically".
17:38:39 <ehird> Think "talk to a three year old".
17:39:59 -!- M0ny has joined.
17:40:24 <ehird> Also, use PAM for authentication of these accounts, not manually wrangling /etc/passwd like I just forsighted you doing. Yes, that means a dumbed-down web interface to the Unix tools you have will be a pain to implement due to PAM not being that easy to automate. That's a feature.
17:40:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
17:42:27 <ais523> actually, you store the password hashes in a different file, so you can make most of the user database user-visible, but not the password hashes
17:42:51 <ehird> ais523: Unix. Accounts.
17:43:16 <ehird> Yes. I know. That's not kerlo's concern.
17:43:20 <ehird> There are tools that handle that.
17:44:04 <ehird> "Nanotechnology discoveries: Disks that can store 10000 times more data than a DVD and that can outlive stone inscriptions!"
17:44:08 <ehird> FUCK YEAH NANOTECHNOLOGY
17:44:39 <ehird> "They've further increased the storage density to 1.1 terabytes per cubic centimeter"
17:44:48 <ehird> "In a paper published online today in the journal Nature, Gu's group reports recording speeds of about a gigabit per second."
17:44:59 <ehird> 1Gbit/sec writing to media with 1.1TB/cm2.
17:45:12 <ais523> I wonder what its rewrite is like?
17:45:21 <ais523> although something like that would be amazing even in write-once form
17:45:25 <ehird> maybe it's write-once, yeah
17:46:02 <ehird> outliving stone inscriptions too
17:46:04 <ehird> is pretty damn awesome
17:46:11 <ehird> ais523: see, THIS is the ideal backup media
17:46:19 <pikhq> ehird: 1.1TB/cm³ is pretty spiffy. :)
17:46:26 <ehird> pikhq: er, ^3 yeah not 2.
17:46:53 <ehird> You can't mess up your backups, you can store all your backups for forever with only a few discs, and backups are instant (assuming sufficiently fast source media)
17:46:59 <ais523> hmm... that would be over a petabyte per litre
17:47:03 <ais523> and storing a litre isn't that hard
17:47:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:47:30 <pikhq> Imagine the bandwidth of a station wagon hurtling down the road with one of this things.
17:47:42 <ais523> oerjan: been logreading, or just an out-of-content reply?
17:47:52 <ehird> pikhq: I wonder how many library of congresses per disc it'd be?
17:48:28 <ehird> ais523: pikhq: 1Gbit/sec = 128MB/sec
17:48:32 <ehird> ok, that's rather less impressive
17:49:00 <ehird> ais523: well, it's what internet connections use
17:49:09 <ehird> maybe CDs/DVDs/Blu-Ray are measured in that too
17:50:16 <kerlo> So, suppose we let our users log in via the web. If I'm not mistaken, the chief non-weird way to do this is cookies. Would these cookies contain the users' passwords?
17:50:32 <ehird> kerlo: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARFGH
17:50:37 <ehird> Stop coding stop coding stop coding
17:51:17 <ehird> Give or take a day
17:51:21 <oerjan> kerlo: no, and i can say that without even having read the answer. what about session ID?
17:51:32 <kerlo> "No" is the answer I expected.
17:51:40 <ehird> kerlo: not cookies.
17:51:47 <ehird> Sessions. If you don't know what they are, stop coding some more.
17:51:53 <ais523> kerlo: cookies generally contain autogenerated nonsense that's used to identify a session
17:51:58 <ais523> and the session is used for everything else
17:52:04 <ehird> ais523: just tell him to use PHP sessions
17:52:16 <ehird> we can't save him, but we can edge him in a sort of right direction to avoid unspeakable disaster
17:52:20 <ais523> then you don't have to worry about how they're implemented (even though they're normally implemented with cookies)
17:52:30 <ais523> OTOH, isn't PHP open to session fixation unless you take steps against it?
17:52:50 <ehird> My current strategy is attempting to make him outsource as much code as possible to Unix and his language. Less dangerous :)
17:53:14 * kerlo reads about sessions.
17:53:16 <ehird> ais523: argh, "One discovery can store way more than a DVD, and the other has a long lifetime. Furthermore, the first one is write-only, and I don't see indications of mass storage for the second."
17:53:19 <ehird> ais523: so two separate things
17:53:41 <ais523> and Slashdot lying as usual?
17:53:57 <ehird> The blog title lying to get sensationalist hits
17:54:06 <ehird> and the reddit submitter— bet it's the author of the blogspam— using the same title
17:54:23 <ehird> at least slashdot clarifies its sensationalism in the summaries
17:55:03 <oerjan> ehird: wait, write-only? you mean it _cannot_ be read again? :D
17:55:17 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/
17:55:21 <ehird> Write-only storage!
17:55:26 <ehird> Super-secure! Competitive pricing!
17:55:48 <ehird> It's provably secure.
17:55:50 <ais523> err, how can you prove they're storing at all?
17:55:57 <ehird> Would they LIE to you
17:56:15 <ais523> argh, that website has one of the most annoying JS advertising sidebars I've ever seen
17:56:17 <ehird> ais523: Here's their proof: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/secure/s4/pipeline/cache/throughput/proof.aspx
17:56:21 * ais523 opens in Firefox instead
17:56:32 <ehird> ((read carefully))
17:56:36 <ais523> now I know why I have JS off by default
17:57:18 <oerjan> ehird: oh it's a joke, must be
17:57:22 <ais523> it doesn't look /quite/ like a genuine IIS formatting page
17:57:23 <kerlo> Should I ask how to store little bits of information associated with each user another time?
17:57:30 <ais523> formatting-wise, I mean
17:57:46 <ehird> ais523: yes, they don't usually reference watching (a) the game, (b) cute kitten videos or (c) female mud wrestling
17:57:50 <ehird> or people starving in China
17:58:01 <ais523> ehird: it's not the text I'm talking about
17:58:04 <ais523> which is obviously different
17:58:59 <ehird> 17:57 oerjan: ehird: oh it's a joke, must be
17:59:04 <ehird> oerjan: very AnMaster of you
17:59:08 <oerjan> "All complaints and feature requests will be immediately stored using our S4-backed user request database." :D
17:59:43 <oerjan> ehird: i _was_ trying to stretch my mind for a moment thinking of any way it could not be a joke
17:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, when is that quote from?
17:59:55 <ehird> AnMaster: almost every time you're mentioned, ever
17:59:58 <AnMaster> or where you impersonating again...
18:00:02 <ais523> also, Amazon allow PUT requests?
18:00:12 <ais523> that's one interesting piece of information to come out from that site, if it's true
18:00:14 <AnMaster> ehird, just see above for a counter example
18:00:16 <ais523> I thought PUT requests were dead
18:00:21 <ehird> yes, I was nefariously POSING AS YOU, AnMaster
18:00:30 <ehird> And making you FORGET WHAT "ALMOST" MEANS
18:00:39 <ehird> ais523: nah, REST is popular nowadays
18:00:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think we need secure tripecodes! ~
18:00:44 <oerjan> ehird: i mean, _backup_ is sort of write-only in the short term. but it's not anything new so...
18:00:47 <ais523> ehird: but nothing supports PUT
18:00:47 <AnMaster> (or whatever the spelling was)
18:00:54 <ehird> ais523: sure it does
18:01:22 <ehird> [[Micheal Lynton, the guy who said 'I'm a guy who doesn't see anything good having come from the Internet. Period.' has posted an editorial at the Huffington Post titled Guardrails for the Internet, in which he defends his comment, and suggests that just as the interstate system needs guardrails, so too does the information superhighway.]]
18:01:30 <ais523> haha: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=g--DKTemd4TMMMq8aU4EeABuqWILa_aMmkQbyhwzrxbrHtx8tmKmlH7irWC&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f998ca054efbdf2c29878a435fe324eec2511727fbf3e9efc
18:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't PUT used in webdav iirc
18:01:38 <ais523> they have a genuine paypal link to buy the entire company
18:01:40 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523:, you mean
18:01:47 <ehird> ais523: that link doesn't work, it's user-specific
18:01:54 <ais523> ehird: but I don't have a paypal account
18:01:59 <ais523> so would it not work for me either?
18:02:13 <ehird> ais523: the author said that he'd probably refund any actual transactions :-P
18:02:19 <ais523> so why can't you steal my session by following the link? IP-based?
18:02:24 <ehird> thus demonstrating he could never own the lottery
18:02:26 <ais523> AnMaster: the S4 people
18:02:27 <ehird> ais523: cookie-based?
18:02:38 <ais523> hmm... cookies /and/ URL seems redundan
18:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm afraid I missed who S4 were
18:02:43 <ehird> AnMaster: SCROLLBACK!
18:02:46 <ehird> SCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKDSKJFHKSDFKSDJFS
18:03:00 -!- tombom has joined.
18:03:01 <ehird> so just waste OUR time instead?!
18:03:10 <ehird> because clearly only -your- time is valuable
18:03:18 <AnMaster> ehird, a short one line summary would be enough
18:03:31 <ais523> Apache=147.188.254.232.327301199300722205; KHcl0EuY7AKSMgfvHl7J5E7hPtK=K1qt0zJ42nOKrHXQ512V7BuFW5fs_zXxwdkA8IlYo00HhjwGiO42drcE6jsj5EHtVawXwNuuhXfQnm49; cookie_check=yes; jNS36F3v1LVZP8Qp0a2pJWhXNKy=mpG_l1Xk9WVVMJwKZVHh_9nI392FXiTNMVIAFRlmKad9qdQtn72dqh9D_3Ksf_3nREVnPjQCIKyE4epIJ6zrmi4ZEsW; LANG=en_US%3bUS; navlns=0; cwrClyrK4LoCV1fydGbAxiNL6iG=DctYoOYqVUNLQKpmwSnWT6mVvE5ZBi3RJ8UuNQw5FdKNngFlzJV1MaUVDLge9BcQPU-SGvT-
18:03:33 <ais523> dqAUo3AQzWWvZ-IHZGNfi0Z7Aw_GC2pam5X39xkdFHQI7ggSNE53QMYBSeyAJ0%7cbqkyg7YNVpHIk_tGrE-68fFnc0kX79Qa913-xSLSZPAMHlyIubz_4wrZrNk2u9vRhHOv7W%7cIMMKtMGhuMz8vkVo7mLi9UQCNkMi6CQhsTCulqkVImjKunHUWsHfINxwd7vLcmfnTR_FYm%7c1243357268; navcmd=_xclick; pNTcMTtQfrJuaJiwEnWXQ6yNxfq=5mv9RU4DctpsQ9re8jiTEh_JImwBUbicIr7FvspGKVQe8hjrwdl_RlC99UYGDLzzp3vd1gAmrIbXQqXt8oETB_fq6Ge1UBpjmfKeevJ8goC2hs5tc3KX_Ho1I6wIgIN0vjhyfY9ftf2FxLYIdIEu8bg7EBQXC-
18:03:34 <ais523> TVzUYFXxJETr2tshK8PcCE4y5z5tFohs4wYca_1iIRds5Rz1VAhhu84PwLZYw_JAKatkZtmxn84zZYjC-TSp4nhXOFctIUj50m0BTwK8IVThZXxMZ-DgPVnkrX36pzZ4ZxTWdks-7k7i5p8Boqy0JoN-kIeG1qgV4uTn4ajaZP9ZNCsmGOsBCvXvC9cc68-moa-DQxi_oE_0OpF7tE; 6Vt_kuBZl8VlyHAqyfqTECtzKXS=4FmsD86w5SZMRES5DmDJOUf8i2MUEbgVvNrxy-YD1bl1DQlvynIlaY86brrCYbUQzov9tNBAz90bxc47
18:03:40 <ais523> what brilliant cookies PayPal have!
18:03:47 <ehird> ais523: don't do that, you'll use up all of AnMaster's scrollback
18:03:48 <AnMaster> I only know of one S4... And that is an ACPI sleep state
18:03:51 <ehird> he only has three lines, after all
18:10:58 <ais523> oerjan: you're going to have trouble looking after them when they grow up!
18:11:22 * oerjan notes that wasn't a fact
18:11:25 <ehird> ais523: but I AM right back!
18:11:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success).
18:11:59 <oerjan> actually lizard pets are illegal in norway
18:12:04 <oerjan> unless they changed it
18:12:10 <ais523> oerjan: do you know why?
18:12:19 <Slereah> They're like scaly ferrets
18:13:13 <oerjan> ais523: norway has (almost?) no native lizards, i guess is the rationalization
18:13:34 <ais523> oerjan: ah, to prevent them disrupting the ecosystem?
18:13:54 <oerjan> ais523: maybe. there is a movement to change the law though.
18:14:07 <ehird> what a fun law to challenge
18:14:31 <ehird> "I will prove that anything written in a higher-level language will not be as fast as my implementation of it in C. I leave this challenge out to anyone to take. (*)"
18:14:35 <ehird> Kill stupid. Kill stupid.
18:14:42 <ehird> Override mode activated. Kill target sequence initiated.
18:15:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
18:17:16 <oerjan> ais523: actually that's probably not a real reason, as the reason we only have 5 (googled) native reptile species in norway is that it's too cold for others to survive
18:18:16 <oerjan> many think the law is stupid. but then occasionally there is a news item about someone's (illegal) snake growing too big for them...
18:18:45 <ehird> int fact_table[] = { 1, 1, 2, 6, 24, 120, 720, 5040, 40320, 362880, 39916800, 479001600 };
18:18:46 <ehird> #define factorial(n) fact_table[n]
18:18:57 <ehird> ↑ most efficient factorial implementation over 32-bit integers :-)
18:19:01 <ehird> well, maybe a switch/case could be faster
18:19:25 <ehird> ofc, 32-bit is useless for anything involving numbers bigger than your average pony
18:20:07 <oerjan> "i'm not a number, i'm a free pony!"
18:20:21 <ehird> ais523: so you mentioned slashdot and I tried to read the comments of a post about lisp
18:20:35 <ehird> and people called it LISP, were ignorant about how it can be faster than C in many cases,
18:20:37 <ehird> so on and so forth
18:20:41 <ehird> then I gave up 'cuz it's worse than reddit.
18:20:44 <ais523> Slashdot is an interesting mix
18:20:45 <ehird> thanks for that :P
18:20:50 <ais523> you do get very interesting comments from time to time
18:20:53 <ais523> but there's a lot of junk too
18:20:58 <ehird> i didn't really see any gems
18:21:08 <ais523> they're normally good at checking whether the story is true or not
18:22:14 <ehird> [[The service is going to feature in a new unscripted series that will "harness Twitter to put players on the trail of celebrities in an interactive, competitive format". No, I am not sure what that means and there are no further details as yet. ]]
18:22:22 <ehird> Twitter... TV... shoh god.
18:22:51 <ais523> wow, that's even worse than the fictional deliberately bad reality TV program that's the centrepiece of BlogNomic at the moment
18:23:23 <ehird> ais523: you have to work http://picoup.com/ into it somehow, then
18:23:39 <ehird> ais523: Twitter except you only get 18 characters
18:23:46 <ehird> plus one @user for free
18:23:56 <ais523> as a joke, or as a serious attempt?
18:24:09 <ehird> ais523: if 18 is too verbose for you, http://femto.picoup.com/ lets you have a character and a user reference
18:24:25 <ehird> express your feelings like @user !, @user ? and @user …
18:24:31 <ehird> (that's one character)
18:25:06 <ais523> I like the random usernames feature
18:25:17 <ehird> apparently I'm ImpulseLeast
18:25:26 <ais523> how would you log on with the same name in future?
18:25:37 <ehird> ais523: if you click change it (with JS), you can give it a password
18:25:50 <ehird> but you can't use a nick that isn't either (a) automatically assigned, (b) registered
18:25:58 <ehird> and I assume it doesn't generate already registered nicks
18:26:13 <ais523> also, any way to follow anyone in particular there?
18:26:24 <ehird> if you click a nick there's a watch link
18:26:44 <ais523> hmm... well, it might catch on
18:37:25 <oerjan> <ais523> and storing a litre isn't that hard <-- literally trivial
18:41:15 <ehird> http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2009/05/new-iphone-2009-a-possible-checklist.html ← "And a pony"
18:42:38 * oerjan sees no pony and feels cheated.
18:46:50 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:47:54 <pikhq> ehird: Any idea how to to do an arrow with the compose key?
18:48:08 <ais523> pikhq: AltGr-I gives → for me
18:48:22 <pikhq> ais523: I don't have no stinking AltGr.
18:48:23 <ehird> pikhq: Nope, I just did it the macfag way and made a keyset file with the characters I want triggered on control-option-<key>
18:48:32 <ehird> ← = control-option-, for me (analogy with <)
18:48:55 * pikhq will have to futz with the compose configuration
18:49:09 <pikhq> Probably stick that on compose <-
18:55:16 <ehird> http://namakajiri.net/diary/things-they-asked-me-in-the-us-visa-interview/en/
18:58:46 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:02:46 -!- olsner has joined.
19:03:59 * ehird attempts to make a smaller typeface than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3x3
19:06:39 * ehird concludes 'tis impossible
19:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, but somehow still readable
19:09:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
19:10:44 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:18:52 <ais523> because the list of programs is sorted in reverse order
19:18:59 <ais523> then you eliminate all past the tenth place
19:19:15 <GregorR-L> Oh, I thought they were from best to worst! D-8
19:20:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: Also, rewipe the hill.
19:20:40 <ehird> Since it's all the worst programs now.
19:21:43 <ehird> ais523: add impomatic_shortsword?
19:21:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: oh, it'd be nice if you made it automatically prepend nickname_ to the programs
19:22:17 <ais523> ehird: I don't have it on me
19:22:20 <ais523> but I'll add some of mine
19:22:24 <GregorR-L> ais523: It takes a REALLY long time to timeout if the programs are unhappy :(
19:22:26 <ehird> ais523: with ais523_ pls
19:22:45 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-]
19:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack5: -1 (maximum 5)
19:22:59 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000
19:23:00 <ehird> erm, isn't that in the default hill?
19:23:07 <ais523> ehird: no, that was attack/defend/fool 1
19:23:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 6)
19:23:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: do you think you could do that nick_ prepending thing & rename the default programs to have ais523_?
19:23:30 <ehird> that plus correct in-channel score reporting = heaven
19:23:52 <GregorR-L> I don't think the default ones should be renamed, they're just examples, but yeah, I can add that.
19:24:06 <ehird> GregorR-L: er, they're ais523's base warriors
19:24:17 <ehird> seems reasonable to prepend ais523_ to me. ais523?
19:24:24 <ais523> <Google> Did you mean: pimpomatic shortsword
19:24:30 <ais523> ehird: well, they are mine, but they're all pretty simple
19:24:41 <GregorR-L> They're like four characters long :P
19:24:44 <ehird> well, okay, it's just "attack1" vs "ais523_attack5"
19:25:18 <ais523> !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20
19:25:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523impomatic_shortsword: -1 (maximum 7)
19:25:38 <ehird> otherwise we'll get impomaticimpomatic
19:25:51 <GregorR-L> I had just added name, then saved, then went "Oh yeah, name_".
19:25:59 <GregorR-L> There was about a five second span in there where it had name and not name_
19:26:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: once you've done that, fix the in-channel reporter, wipe the hill and we can get on with playing
19:26:10 <ais523> GregorR-L: could you just rename the shortsword to the correct name on the hill?
19:26:25 <ehird> But also correct in-channel score reporting!
19:26:34 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:26:49 <ais523> impomatic: good timing
19:26:53 <ais523> the hill is now the right way up
19:26:57 <ais523> as of about 10 minutes ago
19:27:00 * impomatic grumbles about ( ) { and } in BF Joust!
19:27:07 <ais523> impomatic: in what way?
19:27:15 <impomatic> I'm writing an interpreter in asm!
19:27:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: oi, rename ais523impomatic_ to impomatic_ kay? :P
19:27:26 <ais523> impomatic: those are just abbreviations, you don't have to handle htem
19:27:35 <ais523> but they make programs a lot faster
19:27:43 <ais523> to execute, that is, realtime
19:27:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: oh, but the report didn't regenerate
19:27:56 * pikhq grumbles about (){}
19:28:07 * pikhq grumbles still more about (){}();
19:28:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: ok, remaining wishlist, ordered by importance first: (a) correct in-channel score reporting, (b) report doesn't disappear while regenerating, (c) timeouts don't take so long
19:28:46 <ehird> first two can be fixed by you, last needs ais523 probably
19:28:50 <impomatic> Are names automatically added to submissions now?
19:29:13 <GregorR-L> A) If you want the actual final score, this can't be done, or at least not quickly, it'd be slooow.
19:29:27 <GregorR-L> B) This is actually a big PITA >_>
19:29:30 <ais523> !bfjoust bigdecoy >(-)*9>(+)*9>>>>>>>[(+)*6[-]>+]
19:29:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_bigdecoy: -3 (maximum 7)
19:29:48 <ehird> (A) is very fixable
19:29:52 <ehird> It counts wins as losses.
19:29:53 <impomatic> !bfjoust stranger >>>>>>>>>([[-][(-)*127(+)*127]]>)*20
19:29:55 <ais523> and C) by my calculationsm, reducing the timeout to 20000 from 100000 should not affect too many programs
19:29:58 <ehird> Just fix that, dammit.
19:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_stranger: -1 (maximum 8)
19:30:02 <GregorR-L> ehird: Oh, then it's ais523's fault :P
19:30:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: And how is (B) a big pitter?
19:30:14 <ehird> do >tmp; mv tmp foo
19:30:26 <GregorR-L> ehird: I kill the process generating a report when a new report starts.
19:30:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: "Don't do that"
19:30:45 <ehird> ais523: fix (A) and (C), anyway :P
19:31:02 <ehird> (B) probably isn't too important, but it's irritating having this trivial bug in-channel
19:31:08 <ais523> while ($steps++ < 100000) { and print "Timeout." if $steps >= 100000; are the only two lines that need changing to fix (C)
19:31:08 <ehird> and the timeouts are truly annoying
19:31:11 <ehird> making (B) more annoying
19:31:21 <ais523> for (A), the current code appears to run the program each way round and see if the answer was the same
19:31:25 <ais523> rather than looking at exit status
19:31:39 <GregorR-L> ais523: Right, because that's how FYB works :P
19:31:51 <ehird> ais523: if it can report score quickly
19:31:54 <ehird> how come the report takes so long
19:32:01 <ais523> ehird: because it runs all the programs against each other
19:32:02 <ehird> oh, because then it runs every other combination
19:32:03 <ais523> even the ones you didn't just add
19:32:08 <ais523> maybe that should be cached somehow
19:32:16 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_simple: -1 (maximum 9)
19:32:46 <ais523> if we're in ridiculous wishlist mode, why not post a link to the report in-channel when it's finished generating?
19:33:21 <GregorR-L> ais523: I looked in to caching it and started rewriting report in Python to get non-argh SQL bindings to cache in an SQLite database.
19:33:40 <ehird> cache in a database?
19:33:48 <ehird> Just serialize some data structures.
19:33:50 <ehird> "import pickle" done
19:34:04 * ais523 wonders why bigdecoy did so badly
19:34:08 <pikhq> Why don't more people use interrobang‽
19:34:18 <ais523> because you're using it inappropriately when you are?
19:34:35 <impomatic> !bfjoust shield (>--)*3>((+)*12(>-)*4<<<<)*9999
19:34:43 <EgoBot> Program 2's flag fell.
19:34:49 <GregorR-L> Heh, whoops, forgot to get rid of that output :P
19:35:50 <EgoBot> Program 2's flag fell.
19:36:00 <ehird> !bfjoust bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine >+[-->+]
19:36:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine: -9 (maximum 11)
19:36:11 <ais523> impomatic: how does your shield program work?
19:36:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: is it fixed?
19:36:29 <ehird> is -9 my actual score :D
19:37:43 <impomatic> ais523: not sure how it works, I've slept since I wrote it
19:37:57 <ais523> anyway, I just had a new idea for a defence program
19:38:03 <ais523> or rather, an old one, but I figured out how to make it work
19:38:50 <ais523> ehird: yes, your program really did do that badly
19:39:04 <ehird> ais523: run off the tape, I guess
19:39:16 <ehird> Uh, hey GregorR-L.
19:39:26 <ehird> 58.26-9ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine.bfjoust
19:39:26 <ehird> 70.00-3impomatic_shield.bfjoust
19:39:26 <ais523> and why the hey, now everything's working?
19:39:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's not good ordering, yo.
19:39:41 <ehird> ais523: actually, it's not
19:39:42 <ehird> 8 | + + + + + + + + + + + | 100.0| 11| impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust
19:39:43 <ais523> ehird: it's ordered by "Score"
19:39:51 <ais523> which seems to be something other than wins-losses
19:39:51 <ehird> his program is so good that it fucks up the tabs
19:39:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: add another tab after score
19:40:19 <ais523> you could avoid tab problems by always making the score 5 characters long
19:40:33 <GregorR-L> ehird: I don't understand, this output is exactly the same as FYB, and FYB is always aligned >_<
19:40:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: Because,.
19:40:58 <ehird> All others are one char less
19:41:08 <ehird> It's how tab characters work.
19:41:12 <ehird> You need another to pad out
19:41:28 <ais523> just bring all the scores up to 5 chars with padding
19:41:33 <GregorR-L> ehird: But that one is aligned to where the top is. If that one was the problem, it would be the maligned one.
19:41:35 <ais523> that way you could right-align them too at the same time, for free
19:41:46 <ehird> It is the misaligned one, GregorR-L.
19:41:53 <ehird> But what ais523 said.
19:41:54 <ais523> ehird: the title is also 5 chars
19:42:02 <ais523> so actually, it's correctly aligned, everything else is misaligned
19:42:39 <GregorR-L> I'm just saying I don't understand because the code is the same but always comes out perfect for FYB :P
19:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:45:35 <ehird> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt
19:45:39 <ehird> There aren't any 100.0s there.
19:45:45 <ehird> So it's because no program is good enough.
19:46:03 <GregorR-L> ehird: But the 100 is the only one that's CORRECTLY aligned in bfjoust, LIKE I SAID
19:46:08 <impomatic> How about keeping an age for each program to keep track of how many successful challenges each one survives?
19:46:19 <impomatic> Then we could have a hall of fame ;-)
19:47:49 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)").
19:50:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:50:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:50:55 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
19:51:03 <impomatic> How come ehird's program scores more than shield? Ehird = 9 losses, 2 ties. Shield = 3 losses, 8 ties.
19:51:11 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
19:51:13 <ehird> 'cuz it's terrible
19:52:12 <impomatic> Surely a tie should be worth more than a loss?
19:52:15 <Sgeo> I hate collegeboard
19:52:16 <Sgeo> I email them saying I don't remember what I put for my security question's answer. They email me asking for personal information. Among the information they're asking for: "Web Account Security Answer:"
19:52:25 <ehird> Sgeo: I remember you saying that a few minutes ago in Sine too!
19:52:34 <ehird> Why not just crosspost everything you say to every IRC channel?
19:53:08 <GregorR-L> It's about WHAT you tie or lose against.
19:53:19 <oerjan> GregorR-L: !slashes is not working :(
19:53:20 <Sgeo> ehird, good idea!
19:53:29 <GregorR-L> impomatic: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES (same scoring used for this)
19:53:53 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg
19:54:07 <oerjan> GregorR-L: previously i had a problem with it only giving the first line, it didn't use DCC
19:54:21 <oerjan> (although it worked with !show then)
19:54:51 <GregorR-L> However, I'll have to get to that after I fix this :P
19:55:13 <oerjan> GregorR-L: fix the backslashes then too pretty please
19:55:33 <GregorR-L> oerjan: I haven't fixed that because I don't know where the bug is.
19:56:06 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
19:58:13 <pikhq> !addinterp echo_sh sh cat
19:58:13 <EgoBot> Interpreter echo_sh installed.
19:58:21 <pikhq> !echo_sh Hi there!
19:58:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:59:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
20:00:40 <impomatic> Oh, undocumented instruction in BF Joust :-)
20:01:22 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_attack1: -3 (maximum 10)
20:01:54 <impomatic> Ah, not undocmented I just didn't read the Wiki properly.
20:02:03 <ehird> which one did you mean?
20:03:26 <impomatic> I assumbed it was a * on the Wiki for some reason
20:03:56 <impomatic> 09/05/26 19:32:07 <impomatic> !bf joust simple [>[-]+]
20:04:12 <impomatic> 09/05/26 20:01:23 <GregorR-L> !bf joust attack1 [>[-]+]
20:05:15 <ehird> impomatic: "!bf joust"?
20:05:19 <ehird> what's up with your logs?
20:05:40 <ehird> !bfjoust attack1a [>[+]-]
20:05:42 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_attack1a: 2 (maximum 11)
20:05:52 <impomatic> I added the space in case egobot responded to what I pasted
20:05:59 <ehird> impomatic: only at the start of a line
20:06:32 <ais523> !bf joust ,[.,]!Hello, world!
20:06:36 <ais523> !bf joust,[.,]!Hello, world!
20:06:44 <ais523> hmm... input with ! no longer workd
20:09:35 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_flux: 4 (maximum 12)
20:10:24 <ehird> !bfjoust flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails (>)*8(>[+]-)*21
20:10:27 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails: 6 (maximum 13)
20:12:57 <ehird> ais523: how do you shorten nests, again?
20:13:41 <ais523> even if a and c contain the matching halves of square brackets
20:14:18 <impomatic> !bfjoust kicks_ehird >---->++++>-->++(>)*4(>++[-]+)*21
20:14:19 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_kicks_ehird: 5 (maximum 9)
20:14:25 <GregorR-L> Gee, this is much faster with caching :P
20:14:30 <ehird> ais523: what if I want n=0->a, n=1->[ab],n=2->[[ab]b], etc?
20:14:34 <ehird> do I have to manually do that?
20:14:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: can you remove score? pts seems so much more useful
20:15:28 <GregorR-L> ... score is much better. Writing something that beats all the most useless programs but fails against any good ones shouldn't do well :P
20:15:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: then make the in-channel thing report score
20:16:16 <GregorR-L> I suppose now that report is caching, that's not wildly insane *sigh*
20:16:37 <ehird> !bfjoust modernist_decorum ([{[]}+])%30
20:16:44 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10)
20:17:01 <ehird> It should constantly defend its flag.
20:17:49 <ehird> ais523: ([{[]}+])%blah is like [[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+], correct?
20:17:54 <ehird> !bfjoust modernist_decorum [[[[[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+]+]+]+]
20:18:01 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10)
20:19:06 <ehird> ais523: so why does it fail?
20:20:20 <ehird> !bfjoust elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association (>+)*8[[-].>]
20:20:29 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association: -8 (maximum 10)
20:20:41 <ehird> i should probably spend more time coming up with the programs than their name
20:23:31 <ehird> hey GregorR-L, what would I need to get a local version of the !bfjoust command?
20:23:42 <ehird> working the same way, updating a local scoreboard, etc
20:23:46 <ehird> I want to genetically evolve some proggies
20:23:57 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
20:24:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's... not helpful. At all.
20:24:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: I don't want a version that commits to an hg repository and is hooked up to IRC, is the point.
20:25:16 <GregorR-L> ehird: The report program in interps/bfjoust does exactly what you need, without any hgism or whatnot.
20:25:21 <ais523> ehird: all the programs needed are there
20:25:26 <ais523> there's glue to link them to IRC
20:25:27 <ehird> That's nice, then.
20:25:28 <ais523> but you can just not use it
20:28:12 <ehird> % perl5.10.0 bfjoust
20:28:12 <ehird> Both programs finished.
20:28:41 <ehird> ais523: #!/usr/bin/perl
20:28:44 <ehird> please fix that to #!/usr/bin/env perl
20:28:48 <ehird> my perl5.10 didn't run on it
20:28:52 <ehird> since it's in /opt/perl/bin
20:28:59 <ehird> not everyone has control over their vendor :)
20:29:15 <ais523> ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program
20:29:21 <ehird> but it's still a bug.
20:29:23 <ais523> not all computers have env
20:29:44 <ais523> (I have Perl and not env on my Windows computer at home running under DJGPP; it ignores the path in #! lines but parses the program)
20:29:45 <ehird> all UNIX-alikes and POSIX-alikes do, and Windows doesn't have /usr/bin
20:29:57 <ehird> ais523: then what's in the #! line doesn't matter to it
20:30:05 <ais523> because it'd try to run env, not perl
20:30:18 <ehird> ais523: then DJGPP is buggy
20:30:25 <ehird> 20:29 ais523: ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program
20:30:52 <GregorR-L> Incidentally, perl is particularly problematic since there's a flag you're always "supposed" to add, but #!/usr/bin/env perl can't add flags.
20:31:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: no, you're not meant to use perl -w
20:31:08 <ehird> you're meant to "use warnings;"
20:31:23 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust
20:31:23 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl
20:31:27 <GregorR-L> Then I've been taught wrong oh noes
20:31:28 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L: errrrrrr.
20:31:45 <ais523> ehird: "use warnings;" is scoped
20:31:58 <ehird> 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust
20:31:59 <ehird> 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl
20:32:10 <ehird> Use: report <bfjoust program> <cache dir> <bfjoust files>
20:32:10 <ais523> ehird: so you can turn warnings on and off, obviously
20:32:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's a remarkably unhelpful help
20:32:19 <ehird> ais523: ARGH!! ARE YOU BLIND?!?!?!
20:32:21 <ehird> 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust
20:32:21 <ehird> 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl
20:32:50 <ais523> ehird: I noticed that, but aren't replying to it
20:32:55 <GregorR-L> ehird: cd programs; ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust
20:33:00 <ehird> ais523: that was what my question was about
20:33:05 <ehird> so why did you answer a question I didn't ask?
20:33:33 <ehird> GregorR-L: Umm... and how do I get a certain program's score out of this?
20:33:46 <ehird> Additionally, how can I get the latest scoreboard of programs?
20:34:17 <GregorR-L> Hold your horses. I'm saving scores to files now, the scoreboard is spit out stdout.
20:35:32 <GregorR-L> Previously the scores were only in the stdout report, so don't complain :P
20:35:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: So what do I need to do?
20:42:07 <GregorR-L> That's the best you'll get due to my crippling apathy :P
20:42:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: So, cd programs; echo bitch>goddamn.bfjoust; ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust; cat ../cache/goddamn.score?
20:43:27 <ehird> Now, GregorR-L, some questions: Does this trim the hill to 10 items? How do I get the current scoreboard programs in here?
20:45:09 <GregorR-L> This does trim the hill, yes. That command is ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust, and the scoreboard is the output of report.
20:45:43 <ehird> GregorR: No. I mean: how do I get the current egobot programs in there?
20:45:56 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
20:46:00 <ehird> impomatic: have you got all your favorite warriors in EgoBot?
20:46:06 <ehird> GregorR: Ew. Fine.
20:46:34 <ehird> GregorR: Will removing the hill-trimming code make, say, the program think a warrior is great while EgoBot gives it a low score?
20:46:39 <ehird> i.e. will it bias my results
20:46:59 <GregorR-L> It could, but not by a lot, it gives more weight to beating programs that do well themselves.
20:47:20 <GregorR-L> What should I limit the hill to now? 10 is no longer necessary, and seems to small. 50 mebbe?
20:47:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm just wondering whether to evolve with or without the limited hill
20:47:55 <ehird> ais523: i don't need to generate the ()/%/* stuff, right? I can just preprocess them in before sending the program to bfjoust
20:48:12 <GregorR-L> ehird: I would say fight against a static hill ...
20:48:20 <GregorR-L> ehird: That is, always delete your own.
20:48:28 <ehird> GregorR: err, but then I'll only beat the best one currently on the hill
20:48:39 <GregorR-L> OH, you want to evolve against yourself, right.
20:48:39 <ehird> if I add mine to the hill, I come up with a strategy that beats the current crop, then beat that, etc
20:48:46 <GregorR-L> In that case, definitely keep them all.
20:48:58 <ehird> GregorR: does that require intensive surgery?
20:49:00 <GregorR-L> Beating programs that don't do well doesn't earn you much score-wise.
20:49:08 <GregorR-L> Nope, just remove about five lines.
20:49:35 <GregorR-L> It should be painfully obvious what to remove.
20:49:47 <GregorR-L> And yes, I know, that's gross, but report.c is a hack :P
20:49:52 <ehird> GregorR: You said "without any hg stuff".
20:49:55 <ehird> system("hg commit -m -");
20:50:02 <ehird> I assume that, then, is not "hg stuff"...
20:50:07 <GregorR-L> That's the only time report.c uses hg. I forgot about that because it shouldn't :)
20:50:26 <ehird> GregorR: which hg repo has the programs?
20:50:31 <ehird> I don't want to download 'em manually.
20:50:47 <GregorR-L> wget -r -l inf -np http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
20:50:57 <ais523> I was just going to suggest wget, too
20:51:10 <ais523> GregorR-L seems to have more wget-fu than me, but mine is good enough for something like that
20:51:11 <ehird> GregorR: that ends up spidering the whole web
20:51:25 <ehird> ais523: it certainly downloads non-.bfjoust files
20:51:25 <ais523> there's an option not to spider above where you start
20:51:34 <ais523> ehird: yes, presumably it's the directory index in 20 different formats
20:51:41 <ehird> which kind of defeats the damn point...
20:51:53 <GregorR-L> ehird: Good freaking lord, stop complaining and mv *.bfjoust <elsewhere>
20:52:20 <ehird> GregorR: i'm irritated
20:53:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: report is idempotent, right?
20:53:34 <ehird> as in, running it without changing its args or the files will have no effect
20:53:40 <ehird> % mkdir ../cache;../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust
20:53:42 <ehird> 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust
20:53:44 <ehird> 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust
20:53:46 <ehird> 80.000impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust
20:53:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: cool story bro
20:54:14 <GregorR-L> So long as you removed that deletion, yes.
20:54:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: so everything's just lame huh
20:54:37 <ehird> No, because ais523 broke it.
20:54:55 <ehird> ais523: and "perl ../bfjoust" doesn't work with gregor's report program
20:54:58 <ehird> because it requires a filename
20:55:08 <ehird> ais523: so what did you say about "you can run it manually with 'perl bfjoust'?"
20:56:03 <ehird> % ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust
20:56:05 <ehird> 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust
20:56:07 <ehird> 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust
20:56:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: (yes, I fixed it)
20:56:19 <ehird> ../cache was broken.
20:57:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: d'you think removing the programs whose pts are below 0 is a wise decision?
20:57:29 <ehird> otherwise it'll fuss over them
20:58:18 <GregorR-L> The problem is that it may be a program that defeats one really "important" program, but doesn't do well otherwise.
20:58:23 <GregorR-L> And you'd want to keep that alive.
20:59:11 <GregorR-L> (Which is why the whole "score" vs "points" system exists :P )
20:59:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: ../cache never changes anything, right?
20:59:48 <ehird> As in, rm -rf ../cache only makes it slower
21:00:01 <GregorR-L> If you /update/ a program, you have to remove its relevant cache entries.
21:00:20 <ehird> Ahahahahahahahahaha GregorR-L and which are these
21:01:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: What about .score?
21:01:40 <ais523> $ ./bfjoust.pl attack1.bj defend6.bj | wc -l
21:01:43 <ais523> with 2 lines of output per step
21:01:50 <ais523> that means that 10000 is not enough
21:01:56 <ais523> but 20000 probably is, that was quite a long tape
21:01:59 <ehird> ais523: please, can you use .bfjoust instead of .bj? the connotations!
21:02:15 <ais523> but the connotations are only in your mind
21:02:27 <ehird> yes, well, the connotations of everything is only in your mind
21:04:30 <ais523> incidentally, defend6 beats shortsword too
21:04:36 <ais523> it's just /slightly/ too long for an IRC lien
21:05:01 <ais523> which is why I'm pasting it
21:05:08 <ehird> ais523: !bfjoust butt http://foo
21:05:59 <ais523> !bfjoust defend6 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1435349
21:06:14 <ehird> Wow, that's a fucked up codeulation, ais523.
21:06:17 <ehird> Care to expand it for us mortals?
21:06:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend6: 97.0
21:06:28 <ehird> ais523: just look at it!
21:06:36 <ais523> ehird: it consists of lots of not-quite-repeats
21:06:44 <ais523> if I expanded it, it would be massively long
21:06:49 <ais523> as there are no loops but the [] at the start
21:07:05 <ais523> GregorR-L: not surprising, they're both defence programs
21:07:11 <ais523> and wait for the opponent to arrive
21:07:34 <GregorR-L> Well, looks like you're on top now.
21:07:43 <ais523> maybe I should add in a defence-program-detector
21:07:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: So's your mom
21:07:54 <ais523> that switches to a counter-defence strategy if it notices one
21:08:04 <ehird> 295.8710ais523_defend6.bfjoust
21:08:05 <ais523> (a detector is easy, just wait for a few thousand turns and see if anything happens)
21:08:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: Why is it differen?
21:08:20 <ehird> I have the same programs.
21:08:26 <ais523> impomatic: you'll have to come up with something that can beat that, now I've knocked shortsword off the leaderboard
21:08:26 <ehird> Because I have 11 of them.
21:08:30 <ais523> ehird: tape length randomisation, too
21:08:38 <ehird> ais523: ugh, it's nondeterministic?
21:08:42 <ais523> it might make a difference, although probably not
21:08:56 <ais523> the randomisation's just to prevent people using degenerate strategies, and rarely changes the result
21:09:33 <ehird> there's probably an optimum strategy for a constant tape length N
21:09:56 <ais523> ehird: yes, just running straight to your opponent's flag
21:11:01 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb
21:11:03 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb
21:11:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: ais523: that's a pretty large variation...
21:11:14 <ehird> (testing impomatic_shortsword)
21:11:30 <ehird> maybe I should do it, say, 5 times, and take the average
21:11:36 <ehird> def remove_cache(name)
21:11:37 <ehird> `rm ../cache/*:#{name}.bfjoust:*`
21:11:41 <ehird> def test_program(name)
21:11:43 <ehird> remove_cache(name)
21:11:44 <ais523> ehird: if it's an evolutionary algorithm, a bit of randomness is fine anyway
21:11:45 <ehird> `../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust`
21:11:47 <ehird> File.read("../cache/#{name}.bfjoust.score")
21:12:03 <GregorR-L> Any change there can only be from tape lengths ...
21:12:04 <ehird> i'm not goign to get anywhere with this
21:12:10 <ehird> it takes multiple seconds just to run once
21:12:25 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb
21:12:26 <ehird> ruby evolvist.rb 2.16s user 0.13s system 97% cpu 2.342 total
21:12:28 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb
21:12:29 <GregorR-L> ehird: Quay? With the cache in place it shouldn't?
21:12:32 <ehird> ruby evolvist.rb 1.78s user 0.13s system 98% cpu 1.936 total
21:12:41 <ehird> GregorR-L: it removes the cache for the program we're testing
21:12:45 <ehird> since it's to be used when you change it
21:12:54 <ehird> although, I suppose I won't ever reuse a prorgam
21:12:56 <GregorR-L> Oh, it's because your programs almost always time out, right? :P
21:13:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: anyway, you need <0.1s for evolving to be practiacl
21:13:21 <ehird> otherwise it'll take years
21:13:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: in short, make it faster :P
21:13:57 <ais523> ehird: just some programs are naturally very slow
21:14:03 <GregorR-L> Any slowness at this point is due to timeouts.
21:14:10 <ais523> defend6 wins really quite slowly, most of the time
21:14:10 <ehird> ais523: just get AnMaster to rewrite it
21:14:15 <ais523> juts turn on debug and look at the log
21:14:19 <ehird> it'll be really fast :p
21:14:22 <ais523> you could speed it up by not reparsing the program every step
21:14:25 <ais523> or in numerous other ways
21:14:52 <AnMaster> rewrite the bfjoust interpreter?
21:15:07 <AnMaster> No thanks. I'm not really interested in corewars or similar things
21:15:18 <ehird> Gee I sure was not joking
21:15:29 <ehird> "AnMaster" in string implies seriousville, true logic equation facst.
21:16:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: Hahahahaha
21:17:37 <ais523> ehird: as for that BF Joust program, I have a version with whitespace too which shows what it's doing
21:25:21 <ehird> ais523: that'd be nice
21:26:05 <ais523> ehird: http://pastebin.ca/1435376
21:29:09 <ais523> it attacks something in particular, which is the [-] or [+] loop
21:29:13 <ais523> nearly all programs have one
21:29:37 <ais523> and if they go into such a loop on its flag, then defend6 will keep them in it forever, whilst running off and sinking their flag
21:32:25 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_tweaked: 37.5
21:32:49 <ais523> although it does beat defend6
21:33:28 <ais523> beating a program that beats all the others is quite good for its score...
21:34:06 <ais523> and kicks_ehird is amusing, it beats all the programs that don't start ais523_, and loses to all the ones that do
21:34:32 <Sgeo> Game of Werewolves (called Mafia) at irc.xkcd.com #mafia
21:34:49 <ais523> Sgeo: why did you just advertise that in #esoteric and ##nomic?
21:35:15 <Sgeo> I thought peoople there might be interested. Agora had a Werewolves thing
21:35:51 <ais523> impomatic: interesting strategy in stranger, by the way
21:36:00 <ais523> you seem to be thinking about counter-defence strategies
21:37:06 <impomatic> Hmmm... I've also slept since I wrote that one ;-)
21:37:18 <ais523> I can tell how it works, though
21:37:27 <ais523> detects defence strategies by looking to see if the flag has changed
21:37:45 <ais523> and trying up-runs and down-runs to see if either beats the defence strategy, before moving on
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21:42:33 <ehird> "I don't know very English but I know very much Spanish and I suppose you don't know very Spanish but you know very English because you are American but I am not American."
21:42:52 <ehird> (Or should I say "Fidel Zzo38stro"? :D)
21:43:30 <ais523> wow, is that a genuine quote?
21:43:41 <ais523> except the grammar isn't quite as good
21:43:55 <ehird> ais523: it is genuine
21:43:56 <ehird> http://everything2.com/title/Young%2520Fidel%2520Castro%2527s%2520letter%2520to%2520President%2520Roosevelt
21:44:03 <ehird> beforehand he asks Roosevelt for a 10 dollar bill
21:44:14 <ehird> because he wants to see one, apparently
21:44:24 <ehird> he was, admittedly, 12 years old
21:45:20 <Slereah> http://www.underfoule.net/mika/src/12433705409.jpg
21:45:42 <ehird> Slereah: I see no /prog/snake; downvoted.
21:46:11 <Slereah> Where does the snake come from, anyway?
21:46:14 <ehird> http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoyX0YuanBnfGxvYWQ9TDAsaHR0cDovL2ltYWdlczkuY2FmZXByZXNzLmNvbS9pbWFnZS8zNDEyMjU4OV80MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDAsMTcwLDE0NSxXaGl0ZXxjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwxNTUsMTI1fGNwPXJlc3VsdCxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcHJlc3Npb249OTV8
21:46:36 <ehird> Slereah: Because SICP.
21:46:39 <ehird> "force e = e" —/prog
21:49:44 -!- inurinternet has joined.
21:50:16 <Slereah> He is handsome and all, but
21:52:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
21:52:12 <ehird> Carts, cartographers,
21:54:50 <impomatic> !bfjoust dumb (>)*9([(-)*128.[-]]>)*20
21:54:52 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_dumb: 50.0
21:55:11 <Slereah> http://twitter.com/progsnake
21:57:30 <Slereah> http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1861/screenshotlm2.png
21:58:26 <Slereah> ehird, do you know, or do I have to ask /soc/?
21:59:31 <ehird> Slereah: It is just random.
21:59:47 <ehird> Also, your questioning is unscientific and ultimately destructive.
22:01:28 <Slereah> A lot of memes actually have some sort of origin
22:09:43 <ehird> Slereah: I'm waiting for the conclusion to your colon.
22:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out).
22:11:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
22:12:19 <Slereah> The conclusion of my colon is my asshole
22:15:34 -!- MizardX has joined.
22:16:00 <ehird> [[Q: How do you vote in elections?
22:16:00 <ehird> A: I usually vote for the fattest candidate, on the basis that they'll take up more room on the House of Commons benches, thereby giving me more democracy for my valuable franchise.]]
22:18:09 <Slereah> I always vote for the tallest guy
22:20:08 <pikhq> I vote for the guy most likely to gum the works.
22:20:26 <pikhq> In this day and age, that means someone with reasonable opinions.
22:23:34 <ehird> "The Apple M9178 23-Inch Cinema HD Display is a liquid crystal display (LCD) monitor and has a default resolution of 1920x1200 dpi (dots per inch)."
22:23:39 <ehird> holy fucking shit!
22:23:52 <ehird> pikhq: You know we talked about that IBM display with hugh dpi?
22:23:56 <ehird> THIS IS THE REAL DEAL :P
22:24:06 <ehird> It's like a bajillion times more dense than paper!
22:24:37 <ais523> ehird: that's probably a bug
22:24:52 <ehird> it's a bug in the wetware of the human who authored it, rather.
22:26:20 <ehird> pikhq: Think how many VMs you could run.
22:26:28 <ais523> one in each square inch
22:26:31 <ais523> at a decent resolution
22:26:36 <ehird> A really decent resolution.
22:26:43 <ehird> It's pretty much the max anyone runs.
22:26:53 <ehird> Well, some people game at 2048x1536
22:26:59 <ehird> (Or was it 2560x1600?)
22:27:11 <pikhq> That's watching every single HD station at once.
22:27:18 <ehird> pikhq: The screen is 44160x27600
22:27:24 <ehird> And the total DPI is 3063
22:27:25 <pikhq> And a small handful of bluray discs.
22:27:32 <ehird> And 0.0083mm dot pitch
22:27:48 <ehird> pikhq: Haha. That's 8.3 microns separating each pixel.
22:29:05 <pikhq> I didn't know that there was an 8 micron silicon process out there.
22:29:31 <pikhq> Oh, the micron is larger than the nanometer.
22:29:49 <pikhq> That's still pretty impressive.
22:30:02 <ais523> wow, that's the first time I clicked on a link to Goatse
22:30:09 <pikhq> For comparison, a red blood cell is 7 microns.
22:30:12 <ais523> and I recognised it as Goatse before it finished loading, and managed to not look at it
22:30:31 <ehird> pikhq: 10 microns was the state of the art process in 1971-1972
22:30:37 <ehird> 3 microns was reached in 1975.
22:30:40 <ehird> But that's microchips.
22:30:45 <ais523> well, I recognised it wasn't what it claimed to be
22:30:52 <ais523> and guessed it was a shock image
22:30:55 <ehird> This would be the first monitor that requires you to spend inordinate amounts of money just to detect the pixel separation, pikhq :D
22:31:04 <pikhq> BTW, the proper terminology is the 'micrometer'. As in µm.
22:31:14 <ehird> pikhq: microns is also acceptable
22:31:23 <ehird> A micrometre or micron (American spelling: micrometer; symbol µm) is one millionth of a metre, or equivalently one thousandth of a millimetre. It can be written in scientific notation as 1×10−6 m, meaning 1/1 000 000 m.
22:31:35 <pikhq> Yes, but µm is something I can type that most can't. :p
22:32:10 * ais523 wipes the goatse from browser cache
22:32:41 * pikhq can't wait for picometer CPU processes
22:33:16 <ais523> and I didn't even copy-paste from you
22:33:26 <ehird> comex: this is not a nomic channel, before you say anything
22:33:34 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but not for Windows users.
22:33:42 <comex> do you consent to ais523 joining bayes
22:33:44 <ehird> pikhq: Is picometer even possible? I mean, 11nm is nanotechnology.
22:33:45 <pikhq> Alt+0something or other.
22:33:48 <ehird> comex: I do not consent.
22:33:49 <ais523> comex: I'm not trying to
22:33:59 <comex> ais523: well, I asked you if you wanted to and you didn't respond
22:34:02 <ais523> and I suspect you need my consent too
22:34:05 <ehird> ais523: he wants to stop it being deregistered by announcement
22:34:13 <ais523> also, still wrong channel
22:34:14 <pikhq> A picometer process would have the circuit as a very complex molecule.
22:34:23 <ehird> comex: [[I deregister Bayes.]]
22:34:33 <ehird> pikhq: i'm not sure that would work too well
22:34:50 <pikhq> Lemme check to see how big a silicon atom is.
22:34:54 <ehird> helium atom = 31 picometers
22:35:09 <pikhq> 117.6 picometers for Si.
22:35:15 <ehird> pikhq: Heh. Silicon's a fatso.
22:35:43 <ehird> pikhq: So 0.1176nm.
22:35:45 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:35:46 <pikhq> ... Arguably, we're already dealing with complex molecules.
22:35:59 <ehird> We're currently at 45/32nm
22:36:04 <ehird> 32nm can do RAM and shit, so let's say that
22:36:05 <pikhq> I mean, really. We're discussing traces that are about 100 atoms across.
22:36:29 <pikhq> (3 or 4 hundred across for common processes)
22:36:31 <ehird> pikhq: 32nm = 272 * a silicon atom
22:37:00 <ehird> pikhq: 11nm - nanoelectronics - will be 93
22:37:07 <ehird> so really, we're near that stage
22:37:26 <pikhq> IIRC, Intel was working on 20nm stuff.
22:37:56 <ehird> pikhq: On August 18, 2008, AMD, Freescale, IBM, STMicroelectronics, Toshiba and the College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering (CNSE) announced that they jointly developed and manufactured a 22 nm SRAM cell, built on a traditional six-transistor design on a 300 mm wafer, which had a memory cell size of just 0.1 square μm.[5] The cell was printed using immersion lithography.[6]
22:38:10 <ehird> pikhq: that's a bit too prototype for my tastes
22:38:36 <ehird> pikhq: But that's 187 * Si
22:39:06 <pikhq> I seem to recall Intel wanting to have their next generation on a 22nm process. Anyways.
22:39:20 <ehird> pikhq: the next tock will be a 32nm shrink of Nehalem
22:39:27 <ehird> and Intel are converting a fab to it
22:39:32 <ehird> so that's basically where we're at now
22:40:07 <ehird> Some predictions for the 22 nm node come from the ITRS. For example, it is predicted that silicon devices will no longer be planar, but will require ultrathin sections mostly surrounded on the sides by gates. The silicon body in each section is fully depleted, i.e., the free charge carrier concentration is deliberately suppressed. The sections basically protrude as fins from the surface (sometimes these are known as FinFETs). The creation of fins is a ne
22:40:11 <ehird> w challenge for the semiconductor industry, which has become accustomed to building transistors on a flat silicon surface. As of late 2008, several technical risks remain for implementation of non-planar 22nm transistors for logic applications.[2]
22:40:15 <ehird> According to the ITRS, the 22 nm node also marks the first time where the pre-metal dielectric, separating the transistor from the first metal layer, is a porous low-k material, replacing traditional, denser CVD silicon dioxide. The introduction of a porous material closer to the front end presents numerous integration challenges. In particular, the extent of plasma damage to low-k materials is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximatel
22:40:22 <ehird> pikhq: tl;dr: "22nm requires some thinking before we can use it"
22:40:28 <ehird> whereas 32nm has no real issues vs 45nm
22:40:38 <ais523> they want to put the transistors vertically, sticking out from the chip
22:40:40 <pikhq> Still, very damned impressive.
22:40:41 <ehird> 16 nm resolution is difficult to achieve in a polymeric resist, even with electron beam lithography. In addition, the chemical effects of ionizing radiation also limit reliable resolution to about 50 nm, which is also achievable using current state-of-the-art immersion lithography. Hardmask materials and possibly iterated double patterning will be required.
22:40:43 <ais523> to help cooling and density, or something
22:40:45 <ehird> A more significant limitation comes from plasma damage to low-k materials. The extent of damage is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximately 100 nm.[4] The damage sensitivity is expected to get worse as the low-k materials become more porous.
22:40:49 <ehird> and 11nm, well, that's nanotechnology
22:40:52 <ehird> quantum tunneling and shit
22:41:23 <pikhq> The point is, we're getting to that pretty quick.
22:43:46 <pikhq> Which is pretty damned spiffy.
22:44:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Intel is planning to start shipping 22 nm in 2011.
22:44:39 <pikhq> No guarantees of it actually happening, of course.
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23:04:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
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23:29:08 <pikhq> BTW, way up the logs, s/Örjan/Ørjan/
23:46:45 <ehird> pikhq: intel say they'll get 11nm by 2015
23:47:04 <pikhq> ehird: Which is unlikely.
23:47:44 <ehird> nothing remotely close to the advanceness of what Intel wants to do at 11nm even exists in a "this could work" sketch for a prototype, as far as I know
23:48:14 <pikhq> Unless Intel is sitting on stuff. Which would be stunning to say the least.
23:48:36 <ehird> I find that incredibly unlikely.
23:48:53 <ehird> If they have 11nm stuff right now, they could make bajillions and woo everyone by demonstrating it
23:48:58 <ehird> Because it's literally sci-fi.
23:56:38 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer).
23:59:34 -!- AnMaster has joined.
00:03:33 <ehird> if you tall likk thii, all worr can be redd to fouu lett.
00:05:20 <AnMaster> um... shouldn't that be "cann", "beee" and "tooo"?
00:05:50 <AnMaster> oh and alll, ifff (stands for: if and only iff)
00:06:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:07:19 <ehird> AnMaster: only words >=4 letters
00:08:12 <ehird> iffffffffffffffffffff
00:12:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:13:02 <pikhq> I like using punctuation at random."“»›‹¡¿‽’—–
00:13:19 <ehird> ‽‽‽‽‽“º-ß•ªˆ´•¶þ̂‡†›‹̂†‡°̂*(~↙‽↘⁴⁵⁴⁵
00:14:29 <ehird> New favourite word: Douché
00:14:45 <ehird> Past participle of doucher.
00:14:54 <ehird> pikhq: you've showered?
00:19:06 * oerjan tends to smirk whenever he sees the company name Deloitte Touche
00:19:18 <oerjan> the reason, now, should be obvious.
00:21:03 * oerjan didn't know about the tohmatsu at the end. it doesn't really help.
00:23:30 <pikhq> Touché, douch险®.
00:25:01 * oerjan notes that he is not alone
00:25:54 * oerjan gives pikhq a spelling bee medal
00:26:54 * pikhq has been abusing the Compose key
00:31:06 <ehird> Ï’ḿ ābüßïñg tḧẽ őþtıøñ ké¥
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01:14:50 <nescience> in this bfjoust thing, values are 8 bits right? (256 = 0)
01:15:11 <ehird> nescience: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
01:15:16 <ehird> and !bfjoust name program
01:15:21 <ehird> omit your name, it adds it automatically
01:15:35 <ehird> nescience: program sources at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
01:15:45 <ehird> i didn't notice :)
01:15:57 <nescience> i need more details on how [] works
01:16:09 <ehird> [a] is while (*ptr) a
01:16:16 <ehird> as in, while the current cell is not 0, run a
01:16:20 <nescience> my understanding was that when it reaches ] it checks if 0
01:16:23 <ehird> nescience: a loop takes two iterations, iirc
01:16:38 <nescience> so if it was 0 when it executes [, it will still execute the code inside the brackets, yes?
01:16:39 <ehird> that is, ] jumps back to [ if the cell isn't 0, I believe
01:16:50 <ehird> both [ and ] could be said to check
01:17:03 <ehird> nescience: let's say your a runs 3 times before setting it to 0
01:17:05 <ehird> the cycles used are:
01:17:15 <ehird> where b is the program after
01:17:24 <ehird> that's only relevant if you're counting cyclse
01:17:38 <nescience> if [ checks, that explains what happened
01:18:10 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
01:18:12 <nescience> nothing gets incremented, and it takes one cycle?
01:18:18 <oerjan> ehird: not two iterations, the ] jumps to _after_ the [
01:18:32 <ehird> nescience: it'd use [a]a]a]b
01:18:38 <ehird> nescience: and correct
01:18:55 <nescience> i can remove one wait instruction at least then :)
01:19:04 <ehird> if your code is [-] and your pointer is 3, [-]-]-] is executed
01:19:21 <nescience> i'm just wanting to know about the case where pointer is 0 atm
01:19:34 <ehird> nescience: then [ is executed
01:20:06 <nescience> and the 0-check, for the purposes of both programs executing at once, happens before instructions are executed
01:20:28 <ehird> nescience: here's some exact semantics for you
01:20:37 <ehird> note that these all happen on the tick - nothing happens before or after a tick
01:20:48 <ehird> [ if the current cell is 0, jump to the instruction after the matching ]. otherwise, nop.
01:20:56 <ehird> ] if the current cell is 0, nop. otherwise, jump to the instruction after the matching [.
01:21:47 <nescience> knowing my luck the 'fixed' version will probably score worse, but we'll see
01:21:49 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
01:22:19 <nescience> and beats defend6, like it was supposed to
01:22:19 <ehird> nescience: btw, you should try it in channel
01:22:23 <ehird> as it reports the score immediately
01:22:41 <ehird> and it saves us going to the file list :-)
01:22:45 <ehird> nescience: right, then updates the report
01:23:06 <nescience> since the board is random, that seems like a bad idea
01:23:15 <ehird> nescience: 'the board is random'?
01:23:23 <ehird> it doesn't change the scores much.
01:23:28 <ehird> nescience: it runs many matchups
01:23:32 <ehird> but only (yourprog,*)
01:23:36 <ehird> the actual report has to run (*,*)
01:23:39 <ehird> although it -does- cache
01:23:51 <nescience> thought that would be how it works, but i don't get the +/- then
01:23:58 <oerjan> ehird: it didn't cache before today, at least
01:24:02 <nescience> i guess it just tells you overall if you won >50% or something?
01:24:08 <ehird> nescience: + is "won against this program"
01:24:11 <ehird> - is "lost against this program"
01:24:21 <ehird> space is "this IS that prorgam!"
01:24:24 <ehird> oerjan: it doesn ow
01:24:34 <ehird> nescience: a random tape length is picked for each matchup
01:24:54 <nescience> yes, the "won" or "lost" was apparent, but made it seem like each pair only battled once
01:24:59 <ehird> nescience: they do
01:25:00 <nescience> which, for a random length field seems like a bad idea
01:25:09 <ehird> it doesn't matter in 90% of cases
01:25:14 <ehird> nescience: it's just to stop this degenerate strategy:
01:25:18 <nescience> because either 1) random length doesn't matter, in which case it shouldn't be random
01:25:29 <ehird> nescience: which is provably perfect for a given constant tapelength N
01:25:31 <nescience> or 2) it matters, which means it affects the outcome and you can get "lucky"
01:25:52 <ehird> nescience: you can get lucky ONCE by guessing the tape length correctly in advance. However, that length will be different for every other matchup.
01:26:04 <ehird> And the probability is incredibly high that it will fail hard on the others.
01:26:10 <nescience> i mean, some strategies are likely to be faster or slower than others
01:26:20 <nescience> and thus the tape length might cause a given matchup to win or lose
01:26:22 <ehird> nescience: Yes, but the statistical difference is incredibly minimal.
01:26:37 <nescience> it doesn't seem fair to give only one chance if the random selection is what determines the outcome
01:26:40 <ehird> +/- 10 points in one uncommon case in my tests.
01:26:57 <ehird> which is just 10% error, really quite irrelevant
01:27:02 <ehird> nescience: remember that whenever someone adds a new warrior,
01:27:04 <nescience> well since there's <10 points difference between the top entries.. :P
01:27:06 <ehird> it will battle against every one
01:27:08 <ehird> with a new tape length
01:27:23 <ehird> nescience: remember, that was an odd cas
01:27:29 <ehird> I imagine +/- 3-5 points is the most common case
01:27:33 <nescience> yes, i'm doing a lot of remembering :)
01:27:37 <oerjan> if caching is working, then it would be feasible to battle _all_ possible tape lengths
01:28:11 <ehird> oerjan: that would be over 10x slower
01:28:17 <nescience> i didn't really consider that the randomness is so narrow that an exhaustive test is feasible
01:28:18 <ehird> as there is over 10 variations in tape length
01:28:21 <ehird> it's slow enough as is
01:28:27 <ehird> This really doesn't matter.
01:28:38 <nescience> do like corewars stuff and queue up the entries, who cares about instant results!
01:28:52 <oerjan> ehird: 10..30 isn't it? so only 20 times, which is half made up for by the hill now caching the rest
01:28:57 <ehird> nescience: it took ~25-35 seconds to generate the report previously
01:29:20 <oerjan> ok i guess that's not so nice
01:29:55 <nescience> so it'd take a minute to run 20, w
01:30:01 <ehird> !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9((-)*128.>)*20
01:30:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0
01:30:13 <ehird> hm that did really terribly
01:30:36 <ehird> It goes the minimum length, then bruteforcedly decrements 128, sleeps a cycle, then steps onward.
01:30:51 <ehird> !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9((-)*128.>)*21
01:30:53 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0
01:30:55 <oerjan> ehird: because you don't stop when it gets to 0?
01:31:23 <ehird> nescience: it decrements 128 (the default tape value, and nobody seems to tamper with it), then sleeps one cycle
01:31:34 <ehird> so if it hits the opponents' flag, it wins immediately
01:31:37 <ehird> as long as it's 128
01:31:55 <ehird> oerjan: stop when it gets to 0? I don't follow
01:32:00 <ehird> it sleeps one cycle after decimating
01:32:07 <ehird> so it wins, if it's got the opponent's flag
01:32:15 <ehird> and it's 128 beforehand
01:32:15 <nescience> i haven't read all the rest but most of them don't "turn back" and do anything
01:32:16 <oerjan> ehird: it will be horrible for all spots that _aren't_ 128
01:32:25 <nescience> yeah, i guess it just takes too long
01:32:29 <ehird> oerjan: ah, probably
01:32:29 <nescience> since it doesn't skip over the 0s fast
01:32:40 * ehird looks up the "if not 0" thing on the wiki
01:33:14 <ehird> nescience: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#if_.28x_.3D.3D_0.29_.7B_code_.7D
01:33:16 <ehird> you need two temporaries
01:34:25 <ehird> nescience: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_not_x_.28boolean.2C_logical.29
01:35:05 <nescience> i kinda like my solution, it exploits defend6 and makes it kill itself :>
01:35:33 <nescience> i score less than impomatic's though
01:35:40 <nescience> and i have 2 losses and a tie, while his has 3 losses
01:36:28 <oerjan> !bfjoust mi_fili (>)*9(+[--[(-)*127]]>)*21
01:36:42 <ehird> !bfjoust et_tu_brute (>)*9(>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[<(-)*128.>-])*19
01:36:44 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_et_tu_brute: 12.0
01:36:50 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_mi_fili: 14.9
01:37:05 <oerjan> i'm not checking it it's _already_ 0
01:37:05 <ehird> nescience: whatya mean
01:37:13 <ehird> In the interest of generality, the algorithms will use variable names in place of the < and > instructions. Temporary cells are denoted "temp". When using an algorithm in a program, replace the variable names with the correct number of < or > instructions to position the pointer at the desired memory cell.
01:37:16 <ehird> If "a" is designated to be cell 1, "b" is cell 4, and the pointer is currently at cell 0, then:
01:37:24 <ehird> so, if you say x=cell 0, temp0=cell 1, temp1=cell 2
01:37:36 <ehird> (starting on cell 1)
01:37:44 <oerjan> !bfjoust mi_fili2 (>)*9([+[--[(-)*127]]]>)*21
01:37:47 <ehird> (>)*9(>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>[<->[-]]<[<(-)*128.>-])*19
01:37:49 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_mi_fili2: 41.0
01:38:24 <ehird> "Go right 9 times. cell = (cell == 0) (using temps cell+1, cell+2). If it is not zero, decrement 128.
01:38:27 <ehird> I may have it the other way around
01:38:44 <ehird> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust
01:38:48 <ehird> nescience: oerjan: try and beat t hat one
01:38:51 <ehird> it's really good for some reason
01:39:13 <ehird> it was just designed to beat http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ehird_flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails.bfjoust, which is my copy of impomatic_flux.bfjoust swapping + and -
01:39:24 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>-+[-].++>-+[-].--)*15
01:39:25 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 64.0
01:40:02 <ehird> nescience: tape length dependent?
01:40:13 <nescience> that as the 2nd plac entry, just changed to decs instead of incs
01:40:20 <nescience> 'cause impomatic's leaves cells with 1
01:40:58 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>-+[+].++>-+[+].--)*15
01:41:00 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 24.7
01:41:04 <ehird> !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8(>[(+)*128.])*21
01:41:07 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0
01:41:18 <ehird> nescience: it takes a little to generate the report.
01:41:28 <nescience> talk about random lengths not affecting it eh? :)
01:41:38 <ehird> !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8(>[(+)*255.])*21
01:41:40 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0
01:41:55 <nescience> i wonder, maybe something's just wrong
01:42:03 <ehird> !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8([(+)*128.]>)*21
01:42:05 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0
01:42:10 <ehird> !bfjoust flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute (>)*8([(+)*128..]>)*21
01:42:12 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_flux_a_revolutionary_perspective_and_et_tu_brute: 24.0
01:42:18 <nescience> i assumed that submitting it would give the same result against the same hill where it was already sitting there
01:42:56 <nescience> i'm referring to toggling between 2nd and 4th(5th? didn't get a very good look) place with the same code
01:43:04 <ehird> !bfjoust hangup >(+)*20001
01:43:12 <ehird> nescience: odd. oh well
01:43:18 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_hangup: 6.0
01:43:20 <ehird> mwahaha, hangup is the slow
01:43:36 <ehird> nescience: submit a warrior - any warrior - just to get rid of hangup :D
01:44:12 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_hangup2: 6.0
01:44:16 <ehird> and it replaces me!
01:44:17 <ehird> !bfjoust chopsueyside (-)*128
01:44:21 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_chopsueyside: 6.0
01:44:31 <ehird> i bet 6.0 is the worst possible score
01:44:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: why does it add .0 and .00 if it's always whole?
01:45:43 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>--[+]+>--[+]-)*15
01:45:44 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 60.0
01:46:09 <ehird> !bfjoust risktaker (>)*20[>[-].+]
01:46:09 <nescience> oh crap, i wanted to do slightly different
01:46:13 <nescience> but i guess we're bein all spammy in here so
01:46:13 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_risktaker: 6.0
01:46:34 <ehird> nescience: what the hell is up with my progs :)
01:46:41 <nescience> also i broke the exploitation of defend6 again
01:47:32 <ehird> !bfjoust defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark http://pastie.org/490821.txt?key=w47xqyyhmkklmhegqzsog
01:47:37 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>-+[-]+>-+[+]-)*15
01:47:39 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 52.0
01:47:47 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark: 76.0
01:47:55 <ehird> 276.006ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust
01:47:56 <ehird> 772.004impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust
01:47:58 <ehird> 862.004impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust
01:48:00 <ehird> 158.001ais523_defend6.bfjoust
01:48:02 <ehird> nescience: i just swapped + to -
01:48:07 <nescience> i guess i should just stick to not changing anything
01:48:08 <ehird> AND NOW I AM KING OF THE HILL!!!!
01:48:20 <ehird> nescience: try and beat both defend6 and defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark
01:48:28 <ehird> and yeah, that's how ais523 entered defend6
01:48:31 <ehird> since it was too long
01:48:44 <ehird> 01:45 nescience: !bfjoust creep (>--[+]+>--[+]-)*15
01:48:44 <ehird> 01:45 EgoBot: Score for nescience_creep: 60.0
01:49:02 <ehird> fun fact: flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails did quite well
01:49:05 <ehird> when impomatic_flux was in the hill
01:49:10 <ehird> just like I did with defend6
01:49:13 <ehird> it's a sure-fire strategy!
01:49:30 <nescience> but i'm writing my warrior to be sign ambiguous
01:51:28 <ehird> mah internet did broke
01:51:31 <nescience> no worries, i will just submit a different one
01:51:40 <ehird> ofc since I'm on a bouncer you all didn't notice
01:51:46 <ehird> thus you, nescience, think I am referring to bf joust!
01:51:57 <ehird> 17:49:31 <nescience> :>
01:51:57 <ehird> 17:50:59 <nescience> oh, i looked at the code
01:51:59 <ehird> 17:51:00 <nescience> you dick :P
01:52:01 <ehird> didn't notice that
01:52:03 <ehird> but er I just said I did that :
01:52:14 <nescience> yeah, but i forgot quite what it entailed
01:52:24 <nescience> my solution can't be as elegant now
01:52:41 <Patashu> how do I look at the current hill's status?
01:52:43 <ehird> !bfjoust im_a_creep_im_a_weirdo_im_a_ripoff_lolradiohead (>--[-]->--[-]+)*15
01:52:46 <ehird> Patashu: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
01:52:52 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>-+[+]++>-+[+]--)*15
01:52:53 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 27.0
01:53:01 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_im_a_creep_im_a_weirdo_im_a_ripoff_lolradiohead: 26.0
01:53:05 <nescience> !bfjoust inverse_creep (>+-[-]++>+-[-]--)*15
01:53:10 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_inverse_creep: 58.0
01:53:12 <ehird> nescience: that's not inverse
01:53:14 <ehird> the last one should be +
01:53:37 <nescience> whatever, it doesn't matter about that part
01:54:11 <nescience> hehe, one beats defend6 and one beats parody
01:54:17 <nescience> i wonder if i can do em both at once though
01:54:31 <nescience> the elegant part is i didn't have to delay every step
01:54:31 <comex> !bfjoust (>>[-])*200
01:54:31 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
01:54:37 <comex> !bfjoust naive (>>[-])*200
01:54:39 <nescience> since i took advantage of it sitting on a 1
01:54:40 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 15.0
01:54:48 <nescience> i just made mine loop around the "long way", giving it time to suicide
01:55:03 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>[-])*200
01:55:07 <nescience> but i can't very well do that in both directions
01:55:07 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 5.0
01:55:18 <nescience> so i'd have to delay at every step, not just the one before the winning spot (vs that warrior)
01:55:39 <nescience> or time it so that it doesn't matter
01:55:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust naiverush (>)*9([-]>)*21
01:55:46 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_naiverush: 9.0
01:55:57 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>-[-])*200
01:55:58 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 5.0
01:56:05 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>--[-])*200
01:56:06 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 5.0
01:56:08 <ehird> !bfjoust mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver (>[-].)*30
01:56:10 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>--[-])*0
01:56:12 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 5.0
01:56:18 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity (>)*9([-]>[+]>)*11
01:56:25 <comex> oh, I forgot to change the name
01:56:29 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.9
01:56:29 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver: 13.2
01:56:30 <comex> !bfjoust naive3 (>--[-])*0
01:56:37 <ehird> otherwise you cluter the hill
01:56:44 <ehird> 01:56 EgoBot: Score for ehird_mover_is_a_groover_not_naiver_but_a_cleaver: 13.2
01:56:47 <ehird> sweet i lost awesomely
01:56:56 <comex> ehird: then why does an empty script have a score of 5
01:57:05 <ehird> comex: because some other ones are even stupider?
01:57:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7([-]>[+]>)*11
01:57:11 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.9
01:57:14 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 6.2
01:57:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:57:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.1
01:57:33 <ehird> comex: off end of tape = draw
01:57:37 <comex> !bfjoust naive4 (>-->-[-])*0
01:57:44 <ehird> !bfjoust frenchie (-)*128
01:57:48 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>-->-[-])*200
01:57:49 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_frenchie: 5.4
01:57:50 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive4: 5.4
01:57:50 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 6.2
01:57:57 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>-->--[-])*200
01:57:58 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 6.2
01:58:03 <Patashu> if I submit one with a name and the previous one with that name got a higher score, it stays right?
01:58:08 <comex> !bfjoust naive2 (>(-)*128)*200
01:58:09 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive2: 6.2
01:58:12 <ehird> !bfjoust frenchie (-)*128
01:58:14 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_frenchie: 5.5
01:58:20 <ehird> 45.50-10ehird_frenchie.bfjoust
01:58:22 <ehird> that's just beautiful
01:58:28 <ehird> beautifully terrible
01:58:29 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_beatinit: 11.0
01:58:34 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>-)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:58:35 <ehird> nescience: takes longer to suicide
01:58:36 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 24.0
01:58:39 <comex> !bfjoust defense >[([+]+)*200]
01:58:43 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:58:45 <ehird> whereas mine does ------------------------
01:58:45 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 46.9
01:58:50 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_beatinit: 11.0
01:58:55 <comex> !bfjoust defense >[([+]+)*200]
01:58:57 <ehird> nescience: < = draw
01:58:59 <ehird> unmatched ] = draw
01:59:07 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.8
01:59:07 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.8
01:59:12 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++>----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:59:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 24.8
01:59:19 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:59:20 <comex> how the hell is this calculated
01:59:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 25.9
01:59:25 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:59:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.3
01:59:34 <ehird> comex: Wins against bad opponents count less for your score.
01:59:36 <Patashu> those decoys are really important haha
01:59:39 <ehird> Points is just wins - losses.
01:59:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----->+(>)*6(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:59:46 <ehird> But score is better.
01:59:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 6.2
01:59:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>----->+++++(>)*6(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
01:59:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 19.8
01:59:56 <ehird> As you have to beat good warriors to get a high score.
02:00:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+[-]>-[+]>)*11
02:00:03 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 13.6
02:00:07 <ehird> nescience: now I did
02:00:13 <nescience> so i guess if i beat both defend6 and its inverse i can get good points
02:00:18 <Patashu> I changed it back to an old setup and it's scoring much lower
02:00:22 <ehird> Patashu: nescience: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES
02:00:23 <nescience> i could just resubmit until i get lucky
02:00:27 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15
02:00:28 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 30.9
02:00:29 <comex> !bfjoust defense (>-)*50
02:00:31 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.8
02:00:31 <ehird> applies to FYB but bfjoust is the same system
02:00:37 <comex> !bfjoust defense (>->+)*25
02:00:39 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.0
02:00:53 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15
02:00:55 <comex> !bfjoust defense (>->+)*20
02:00:55 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 29.0
02:00:56 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.0
02:01:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++[-]>--[+]>)*11
02:01:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 33.0
02:01:04 <ehird> you go off the edge of the tape
02:01:07 <ehird> and never get a flag
02:01:10 <comex> how big is the tape?
02:01:12 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++[-]>---[+]>)*11
02:01:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0
02:01:17 <comex> so different from agora
02:01:23 <comex> !bfjoust defense (>->+)*5
02:01:25 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.5
02:01:27 <comex> !bfjoust defense (>->+)*10
02:01:28 <EgoBot> Score for comex_defense: 5.5
02:01:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++[-]>----[+]>)*11
02:01:31 <ehird> we should get rid of -
02:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 43.2
02:01:35 <ehird> to avoid trivial swaps
02:01:37 <nescience> lol you guys quit fucking up the report
02:01:49 <comex> !bfjoust (+)*127(>[-])*30
02:01:49 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
02:01:53 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15
02:01:55 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 38.0
02:01:55 <Patashu> wow mine is doing really well o.O
02:01:56 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[-])*30
02:01:57 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 15.0
02:02:02 <ehird> !bfjoust rushpolarity_with_reversed_polarity >----->+++++(>)*7(----[+]>++++[-]>)*11
02:02:03 <comex> !bfjoust naive (-)*127(>[-])*30
02:02:04 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.5
02:02:08 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[+])*30
02:02:09 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.5
02:02:15 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[--])*30
02:02:17 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.5
02:02:20 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>[-])*30
02:02:21 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.5
02:02:28 <comex> why did the exact same program get a different score
02:02:30 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rushpolarity_with_reversed_polarity: 44.6
02:02:36 <ehird> comex: randomized tape lengths
02:02:43 <nescience> because the lengths are random, so sometimes it might win or lose depending on that
02:02:51 <comex> !bfjoust naive (>)*29(-)*128
02:02:52 <ehird> yes, but if you do, your program sux
02:02:53 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.0
02:03:01 <nescience> !bfjoust creep (>+-[-]++>-+[+]--)*15
02:03:01 <Patashu> to avoid trivial swaps but keep the functionality of + and - differing
02:03:02 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 29.0
02:03:03 <comex> !bfjoust naive (>)*20[-](>)*9(-)*128
02:03:04 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 7.0
02:03:12 <Patashu> how about at the start of each match it randomly swaps or doesn't swap all your +s and -ses?
02:03:36 <comex> !bfjoust naive (>)*20--[+](>)*9(-)*128
02:03:37 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 8.0
02:03:46 <Patashu> well it would make a program and the program with opposite +-s functionally equivalent
02:03:51 <nescience> all of a sudden i have a bunch of losses
02:03:51 <comex> !bfjoust naive (>)*20(--[+]>)*200
02:03:53 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 8.0
02:03:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++++[-]>-----[+]>)*11
02:03:56 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.0
02:04:08 <ehird> !bfjoust am_i_lame_enough_to_rip_off_shortsword_yes (>-->++)*2(>)*6([+[-]]>)*20
02:04:13 <Patashu> oh aah I see why this works
02:04:17 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_am_i_lame_enough_to_rip_off_shortsword_yes: 7.0
02:04:19 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++[-]>------[+]>)*11
02:04:20 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>)*200
02:04:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.0
02:04:21 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 13.5
02:04:25 <ehird> 482.007ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust
02:04:29 <ehird> still chillin' at the top w/ my ripoff
02:04:29 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>++[-])*200
02:04:30 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 13.5
02:04:39 <ehird> you're not even thinking about this logically
02:04:46 <ehird> comex: the flag has to stay 0 for two generations
02:04:52 <Patashu> beating all but 1, 3, 4...
02:04:53 <ehird> It will never obliterate a flag.
02:04:54 <comex> also a change from agora
02:04:58 <comex> I should probably actually read the rules
02:05:03 <nescience> according to what you said earlier
02:05:05 <ehird> nescience: oh, true
02:05:23 <comex> !bfjoust naive (+)*127(>------)*20(--[+]>++[-])*10.
02:05:24 <EgoBot> Score for comex_naive: 40.1
02:05:42 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(+++++++[-]>-------[+]>)*11
02:05:44 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3
02:05:54 <nescience> and don't let people submit more than one while it's running
02:05:58 <nescience> make em sit back and think for a while
02:06:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:06:03 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.3
02:06:29 <ehird> !bfjoust (>)*14[>[-].+]
02:06:30 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
02:06:33 <ehird> !bfjoust an_thing (>)*14[>[-].+]
02:06:40 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_an_thing: 26.0
02:07:24 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:07:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 59.0
02:07:26 <GregorR-L> ehird: It didn't occur to me that it's always whole, it is because there are 10 programs ...
02:07:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: not true
02:07:44 <ehird> most often we have 11
02:07:48 <ehird> and sometimes we've had 12
02:07:50 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(+>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:07:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.9
02:07:55 <ehird> it doesn't seem to trim well if people submit a lot of proposals at once
02:08:02 <GregorR-L> It shouldn't always be whole then, as in that example :P
02:08:03 <ehird> 638.89-3impomatic_dumb.bfjoust
02:08:04 <ehird> 538.89-3impomatic_chrome.bfjoust
02:08:06 <ehird> 217.28-6ehird_an_thing.bfjoust
02:08:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yes, but make it always stay at 10...
02:08:12 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++>-----(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:08:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0
02:08:33 <GregorR-L> ehird: It removes them after evaluating. 12 would be from two added at once, 11 is the "norm"
02:08:34 <Patashu> are you starting on cell 0
02:08:50 <Patashu> like, track is 10-30 cells and you're on cell 1 right?
02:08:52 <GregorR-L> (Now that I'm thinking about the actual results of this deletion code :P )
02:08:58 <ehird> Patashu: 10-30 cells total
02:09:05 <ehird> but we number them from 0-29
02:09:23 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity (>)*7>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:09:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.0
02:09:47 <ehird> !bfjoust rushpolishmenarity (>)*8>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:09:55 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rushpolishmenarity: 28.0
02:09:58 <nescience> !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[[[-]]])*20
02:10:00 <ehird> !bfjoust rushpolishmenarity (>)*8>++++++>------(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*10
02:10:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >++++++>------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:10:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_rushpolishmenarity: 28.0
02:10:03 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 23.0
02:10:22 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_kekeke: 21.0
02:10:47 <ehird> only two scores >50 now
02:10:50 <nescience> !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[[[+]]])*20
02:10:50 <ehird> defend6 and my ripoff
02:10:51 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_kekeke: 21.0
02:10:55 <ehird> with defend6 winning slightly
02:11:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++++++>---------(>)*7(+++++++[-]>-------[+]>)*11
02:11:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 39.5
02:11:19 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+++++++++>---------(>)*7(++++++++[-]>--------[+]>)*11
02:11:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5
02:11:32 <nescience> i wonder though why it loses to defend6
02:12:19 <ehird> !bfjoust now_is_the_time_for_all_bad_men_to_come_backwards_in_time_for_their_country [(-)*128+]
02:12:20 <Patashu> actually I should clean the code up
02:12:26 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_now_is_the_time_for_all_bad_men_to_come_backwards_in_time_for_their_country: 29.0
02:12:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11
02:12:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 50.0
02:12:56 <ehird> only inverse creep beats my program
02:13:09 <nescience> that's because it exploits "your" program
02:13:13 <ehird> defend6 draws though
02:13:14 <nescience> !bfjoust kekeke (>+>-)*4(>[-](.)*132)*20
02:13:16 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_kekeke: 19.8
02:13:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*7[-]>(-)*7[+]>)*11
02:13:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.7
02:14:06 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:14:08 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 25.9
02:14:30 <Patashu> now it says all but 1,2 beaten
02:15:46 <Patashu> hey if I have symbol*number without brackets
02:17:41 <nescience> !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-.[+]++>-++-.[+]--)*15
02:17:42 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 12.0
02:18:18 <nescience> !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
02:18:19 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 32.5
02:19:37 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
02:22:57 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-][>](-)*9[+][>])*11
02:22:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 75.3
02:23:31 <Patashu> but when I look at hte report I lost every one
02:23:53 <nescience> that was your score before submitting
02:23:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-][>](-)*9[+][>])*11
02:23:58 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 0.0
02:24:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:24:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 0.0
02:24:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:24:33 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1
02:24:50 <Patashu> wonder why the [>] made it worse...
02:25:06 <Patashu> I'd need a reverse [] to do what I was thinking of
02:25:31 <Patashu> loop while cell under pointer IS zero
02:27:13 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11
02:27:15 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1
02:27:37 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*9>(-)*9(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:27:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3
02:28:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11
02:28:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3
02:28:37 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:28:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.0
02:29:04 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*8>(-)*8(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11
02:29:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 50.6
02:29:37 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*10[-]>(-)*10[+]>)*11
02:29:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 34.6
02:30:15 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*6[-]>(-)*6[+]>)*11
02:30:17 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5
02:30:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*7[-]>(-)*7[+]>)*11
02:30:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.1
02:30:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*8[-]>(-)*8[+]>)*11
02:30:57 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5
02:31:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10(>)*7((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:31:57 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5
02:32:48 <Patashu> where'd everyone go anyhow
02:34:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*5(>)*6((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:34:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 75.3
02:34:59 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:35:01 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4
02:35:25 <nescience> !bfjoust slowpoke http://pastie.org/490848.txt
02:35:28 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_slowpoke: 8.5
02:35:44 <Patashu> is that algorithmically generated?
02:36:49 <Patashu> this is for my bfjoust master's degree
02:38:35 <coppro> !bfjoust irritating [>[-]-]
02:38:42 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_irritating: 21.5
02:38:54 <Patashu> the score it gives is for the LAST time you submitted a program
02:39:26 <nescience> !bfjoust slowpoke http://pastie.org/490854.txt
02:39:28 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_slowpoke: 8.5
02:39:41 <coppro> !bfjoust irritating [>[-]->[+]+]
02:39:42 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_irritating: 21.5
02:40:11 <nescience> beat defend, and hopefully also do something interesting
02:40:40 <coppro> !bfjoust beat_defenders [>[[[[[[-]]]]]]]
02:40:51 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_beat_defenders: 8.5
02:41:19 <nescience> you'll just tie or run off the end
02:41:46 <Patashu> only ones I'm not beating are the defend6s
02:42:05 <nescience> i could be lame like ehird and just rip your code and then possibly fix it to beat them
02:42:22 <nescience> the thing i don't get is why you bother doing 10 +'s etc
02:42:38 <Patashu> they're more likely to set them to low +- numbers than high ones
02:42:52 <nescience> that doesn't help you any, since you aren't looping
02:42:53 <Patashu> well it works better when I put them in!
02:43:16 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-]>[+]>)*11
02:43:18 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 76.0
02:43:23 <Patashu> let's see what happens when I take them out then
02:43:36 <Patashu> let's replace them with an equivalent amount of .s
02:43:50 <nescience> if you have a set number of -s or +s
02:43:59 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:44:01 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 21.0
02:44:02 <nescience> and someone else is looping on the same position
02:44:13 <nescience> if they dec to 0, you can put them past 0
02:44:19 <nescience> and then they loop again 256 times
02:44:49 <nescience> my decoys only bother setting once because they are only going to slow down loops
02:44:57 <nescience> and for that you don't need more than one
02:45:07 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >+>->->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:45:09 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.5
02:45:35 <Patashu> I was under the impression that a high finite + or - for a decoy would stop constructs that go like [+[--[+++[----[...
02:45:38 <nescience> i think you ought to study why it's working for you in detail, probably could learn something good
02:45:44 <Patashu> nope small decoys doesn't help it
02:46:03 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
02:46:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 34.6
02:46:42 <nescience> all you need to do to beat the defends is delay longer before moving on
02:46:57 <nescience> you need to spend longer than 128 cycles at each location
02:47:04 <Patashu> but then I lose to everything else
02:47:05 <nescience> assuming you zero them before moving
02:47:23 <nescience> maybe you should just not care about them, apparently tripwire is not that effective a strategy
02:47:26 <nescience> unless it's all that's on the hill
02:47:27 <Patashu> 8 and 9 beat defend6 a parody
02:47:34 <Patashu> but 8 and 9 do poorly in general
02:47:51 <Patashu> how do you make a defender? I wanna try
02:48:09 <nescience> 1) waiting at instruction 1 until it gets zeroed
02:48:16 <nescience> 2) going back to their flag and inc/dec'ing 128 times
02:48:26 <nescience> 3) then going back and forth across the tape alternately
02:48:50 <nescience> they keep tweaking their flag, then attacking a new location
02:49:04 <nescience> the goal is, presumably, to do like i said before
02:49:11 <nescience> let the enemy's loop hit 0 and fall through
02:49:21 <nescience> but inc/dec the flag on that same instruction so you don't lose
02:49:42 <nescience> i wonder, the tripwire thing probably doesn't need to attack the opponent's flag at all
02:50:23 <Patashu> what if say your opponent -s while you +
02:50:30 <Patashu> do you alternate +ing and -ing
02:51:06 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*128(-)*128(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
02:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0
02:52:06 <Patashu> it ties the defends though lol
02:52:15 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0
02:52:23 <coppro> !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7[>[-]]
02:52:26 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0
02:52:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*123456(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:52:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
02:52:35 <coppro> !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7[>[-].]
02:52:36 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0
02:52:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<.(+)*123456(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:52:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
02:52:56 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.5
02:52:58 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<.(+)*123456.(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:53:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
02:53:07 <coppro> !bfjoust morefail >+[]+[->[-]](>)*7+[[-].>]
02:53:09 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_morefail: 0.0
02:53:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*123456.(-)*123456(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:53:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
02:53:19 <nescience> at least stop and reflect on your scores
02:53:21 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
02:53:25 <nescience> remember the bot isn't reporting an accurate score
02:53:31 <nescience> so you have to refresh the chart at least
02:53:32 <coppro> there was an obvious bug in mine
02:53:35 <nescience> and every time you submit it blanks the chart
02:54:15 <Patashu> hmm that last time it beat 10 and did a whole bunch of ties
02:54:20 <coppro> rofl my new one can't win
02:54:23 <Patashu> so why is it tieing then? it kills itself or it times out?
02:54:46 <nescience> and anything that doesn't loop would win
02:54:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(+)*500.(-)*500(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:54:58 <nescience> also i forgot something about my own attempt
02:54:58 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 9.0
02:55:12 <Patashu> that beats creep and kekeke
02:55:58 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*256.(--+)*256(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:56:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 14.0
02:56:32 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*129.(--+)*129(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:56:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 41.0
02:56:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*500.(--+)*500(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:56:50 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 17.3
02:57:07 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:57:09 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 55.6
02:57:17 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire http://pastie.org/490870.txt
02:57:19 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0
02:57:26 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1
02:57:28 <nescience> yeah, didn't think it'd do much better
02:57:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:57:41 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1
02:57:54 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+]]]
02:58:08 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0
02:58:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*512(.-+)*512(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:58:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5
02:58:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:58:31 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5
02:58:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:58:41 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 39.5
02:58:49 <Patashu> okay that . makes it win for some reason
02:59:20 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]]
02:59:22 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0
02:59:24 <nescience> still probably gonna be affected by randomness
02:59:27 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
02:59:28 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 48.1
02:59:29 <coppro> hrmm why's mine failing
02:59:44 <Patashu> what is that horrid thing doing
03:00:31 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-](.)*1000]]
03:00:32 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0
03:00:46 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]+]
03:00:47 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 0.0
03:00:55 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-](.)*1000]+]
03:00:57 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 31.5
03:01:01 <Patashu> don't forget to check the chart after you submit something
03:01:11 <Patashu> was the score for the LAST program you submitted
03:01:12 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[]+(>[+](.)*128)*29
03:01:13 <coppro> !bfjoust watch_killer [>[[-]+>[][+--]]+]
03:01:14 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 45.0
03:01:14 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_watch_killer: 37.0
03:01:29 <coppro> basically it tricks defenders into killing themselves
03:01:30 <nescience> can't believe i/nobody thought of that yet
03:01:40 <nescience> coppro: yes, that's what i did like two hours ago :P
03:01:51 <nescience> the above should beat loopers and both defenders
03:02:12 <coppro> hmm... I've got a new one to try
03:02:14 <nescience> i wish their numbers would stay the same
03:02:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<[]+-++--+++---++++----(>)*9(>[+])*21
03:02:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 0.0
03:02:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(.+-)*1000.(.-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
03:02:30 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 58.0
03:03:02 <coppro> hmm... it would be more interesting
03:03:10 <coppro> if you had one 0 cell beyond each flag
03:04:11 <Patashu> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust talk page
03:04:39 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[]+.+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:04:41 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0
03:04:49 <coppro> would allow for more interesting possibilities, because then programs could identify flags other than by hoping they don't run off the end
03:04:58 <nescience> hm, i think maybe the timing is not correct
03:05:06 <nescience> coppro: it's called "joust" not "snipe" ;)
03:05:30 <coppro> nescience: you can, of course, trick your opponent still!
03:05:51 <coppro> more importantly, it allows defensive strategies that don't need to use fixed numbers in the source
03:06:01 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 35.0
03:06:41 <nescience> from what was described to me before
03:06:46 <nescience> no matter if it is executing [ or ]
03:06:51 <Patashu> [] loops if the cell is not 0\
03:07:08 <Patashu> it will only halt if it encounters a -1 cell
03:07:19 <nescience> when the flag becomes 0 it should execute +
03:07:34 <nescience> 'cause the enemy should be at that point executing ]
03:08:03 <Patashu> I think I see why it beats matador
03:08:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+])*21
03:08:30 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 53.1
03:08:40 <nescience> so what happens is my test doesn't work until it has been 0 for 1 round
03:08:43 <Patashu> k, fixed the vulnerability
03:09:02 <Patashu> now it only beats creep and watch kille
03:09:49 <Patashu> I have an idea to tweak rushpolarity now
03:10:06 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*128+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:10:07 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:10:18 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+>(-)*9[+].->)*11
03:10:20 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 71.0
03:10:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+>(-)*9[+]->)*11
03:10:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4
03:10:53 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*256+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:10:55 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:10:58 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-][+]>(-)*9[+][-]>)*11
03:11:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.0
03:11:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-][+]>[+][-]>)*11
03:11:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1
03:11:28 <Patashu> no that's not doing it at all haha
03:11:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]>(-)*9[+]>)*11
03:11:33 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 29.6
03:11:49 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*256+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:11:50 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:12:08 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*257+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:12:09 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:12:19 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<(.)*255+(>)*9(>[.+])*29
03:12:21 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:12:23 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+-++-->(-)*9[+]+-++-->)*11
03:12:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 60.0
03:12:39 <nescience> gonna have to notepad this up and solve a simpler problem
03:12:47 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+-.++-->(-)*9[+]+-.++-->)*11
03:12:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.6
03:13:03 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++-->(-)*9[+].+-++-->)*11
03:13:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1
03:13:06 <nescience> i guess nobody uses a simple attack anymore
03:13:12 <coppro> !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[-]+]
03:13:16 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 27.5
03:13:27 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+->(-)*9[+].+->)*11
03:13:28 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 68.5
03:13:44 <coppro> oh right, need defense protection
03:13:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++--+++--->(-)*9[+].+-++--+++--->)*11
03:13:46 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2
03:13:58 <coppro> !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[[-]+]+]
03:13:59 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 25.3
03:14:03 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:14:04 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.4
03:14:05 <coppro> !bfjoust fooled_ya (>+>-)*4[>[+[-]]+]
03:14:07 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 25.3
03:14:32 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-++-->(-)*9[+].+-++-->)*11
03:14:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.6
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03:14:37 <coppro> how does the scoring system work?
03:14:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:14:46 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 48.8
03:14:50 <Patashu> you get more points for beating programs with more points
03:15:04 <coppro> !bfjoust fooled_ya (>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4[>[+[-]]+]
03:15:06 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_fooled_ya: 29.6
03:15:11 <Patashu> haha matador's falling now that it doesn't beat rushpolarity any more
03:15:21 <nescience> i think the scoring system needs a little work
03:15:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([-].+-.++-->[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:15:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 63.0
03:15:44 <nescience> if you get points for beating something before its battle with you gets taken account of, then things are a little weird the first submit
03:16:03 <coppro> I don't understand exactly how this game works well enough yet
03:16:07 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5(+[-].+-.++-->-[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:16:09 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1
03:16:16 <Gracenotes> hm? How are parens and numerical symbols determined?
03:16:21 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:16:22 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.1
03:16:31 <Patashu> (foo)*num = foofoofoofoo...num times
03:16:47 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:16:48 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[-++-](>)*9(>-++-(.)*128[+])*29
03:16:49 <coppro> (some{stuff}things)*2=somesomestuffthingsthings
03:16:49 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 8.0
03:16:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 30.9
03:17:20 <nescience> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[--](>)*9(>-++-(.)*128[+])*29
03:17:21 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_tripwire: 0.0
03:17:25 <Patashu> and the more that program had
03:17:41 <Gracenotes> I have heard of BF jousting, but not the specifics
03:17:41 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[-].+-.++-->(-)*8[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:17:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 45.0
03:17:50 <nescience> oh of course tripwire would always tie the defends
03:18:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+-.++-->(-)*9[+].+-.++-->)*11
03:18:03 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 36.4
03:18:03 <coppro> !bfjoust tripstep [>[>[-]]+]
03:18:09 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_tripstep: 37.0
03:18:37 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-].+.--++>(-)*9[+].+.--++>)*11
03:18:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.5
03:19:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+.--.++>(-)*9[+]+.--.++>)*11
03:19:04 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 47.5
03:19:48 <coppro> !bfjoust tripstep [>[[>[-].+]]+]
03:19:50 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_tripstep: 43.0
03:20:19 <nescience> !bfjoust test (>)*9(-++-(-)*70[+])*20
03:20:21 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 22.5
03:20:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:20:46 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 29.0
03:21:06 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:21:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 29.0
03:21:30 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:21:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 42.0
03:21:41 <Patashu> oop now it beats rushpolarity again
03:21:58 <nescience> !bfjoust test >----->+++++>----->+++++>----->+++++>-----(>-++-(-)*70[+])*20
03:21:59 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 7.5
03:22:24 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-+-)*1000.(--+-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:22:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 7.4
03:22:36 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:22:38 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 44.4
03:23:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:23:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 30.9
03:23:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
03:23:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 30.9
03:23:39 <Patashu> it needs to do two fights against each program imho
03:23:43 <coppro> !bfjoust tripstep [>[+[--[>[-].+]]<+[>[-].+].+]]+]
03:23:45 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_tripstep: 0.0
03:24:07 <coppro> !bfjoust tripstep [>[+[--[>[-].+]]+[[-].>+].+]]+]
03:24:09 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_tripstep: 0.0
03:26:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5([+[-]]+.--.++>[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
03:26:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 55.6
03:26:22 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*9[-]+.--.++>(-)*9[+]+.--.++>)*11
03:26:24 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 30.9
03:26:36 <nescience> !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>)*13(>(-)*128.)*15
03:26:38 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 27.0
03:26:57 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*9[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
03:26:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 55.5
03:27:01 <nescience> !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>)*13(>(-)*128.)*15
03:27:03 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 27.0
03:27:33 <nescience> !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+>-)*6>(>(-)*128.)*15
03:27:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>->+(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
03:27:34 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 40.7
03:27:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.9
03:28:29 <nescience> !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+++++>-----)*2(>)*9(>(-)*128.)*15
03:28:30 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 26.5
03:28:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
03:28:40 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 54.3
03:28:45 <nescience> ah well, second try was the best heh
03:29:15 <nescience> ah well, second try was the best heh
03:29:18 <nescience> !bfjoust playing_the_odds (>+++++>-----)*2(>)*9(>(-)*128.)*15
03:29:19 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_playing_the_odds: 38.3
03:29:46 <nescience> didn't quite beat both defends though
03:30:06 <nescience> that'll be an amusing one to have on the hill
03:31:15 <nescience> shortsword has staying power at least
03:31:47 <coppro> !bfjoust (>)*15([{-}])*100
03:31:47 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
03:31:52 <coppro> !bfjoust dice!(>)*15([{-}])*100
03:31:53 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
03:31:55 <coppro> !bfjoust dice! (>)*15([{-}])*100
03:32:04 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_dice_: 0.0
03:32:41 <nescience> the hill should have an "age" parameter ala corewars hills
03:46:11 <nescience> wtf save page is failing miserably
03:46:55 <nescience> keeps giving me an 'edit conflict' error
03:48:30 <nescience> stupid wikis capitalizing my username
03:49:57 <oerjan> nescience: if that was you on the BF Joust talk page, please sign with ~~~~
03:50:08 <nescience> how come ais523 gets a lowercase nick and i don't :(
03:51:42 <oerjan> were you the previous comment too?
03:51:44 <nescience> it just looks wrong with a capital M >:(
03:52:00 <nescience> my edit was only the last paragraph
03:52:01 * oerjan will add an unsigned template
03:52:24 <oerjan> assuming i can get the damn molasses to load
03:52:59 <nescience> coppro was that unsigned paragraph
03:53:25 <coppro> oh, I must have not been logged in
03:53:56 <oerjan> that was you? then maybe best you sign yourself
03:54:15 <oerjan> i can just change the nick
03:54:32 <coppro> mine was the comment about going past the end
03:54:41 <nescience> i don't really see how that would be useful though
03:55:26 <oerjan> coppro: actually i don't know your username
03:56:08 <coppro> oh, dear, it appears I never signed up to esolang
03:56:38 <oerjan> coppro: also, whether or not you are logged in you need to use a ~~~~ command to sign (it's in the button menu)
03:58:23 <oerjan> nescience: dammit your decapitalization made an edit conflict :(
03:59:55 <oerjan> nescience: also the signature text can be set in preferences
04:00:33 <nescience> i thought that's what it was, but when i changed it, it didn't affect the page
04:00:37 * oerjan changed it to use an Ø
04:00:52 <oerjan> nescience: it's not your username
04:01:08 <oerjan> only used for signature i think
04:01:21 <nescience> but my signature had still taken from before
04:01:45 <nescience> between wikis and muds lately, *sighs*
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04:18:00 <nescience> !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>[[+]>-++]
04:18:01 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 38.5
04:19:38 <nescience> !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>(-++-(-.)*130>)*20
04:19:40 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 0.0
04:20:43 <nescience> !bfjoust test >(+)*50>(-)*50>(+)*30>(-)*30>(+)*10>(-)*10>+>(-++-(-.)*130>)*20
04:20:45 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_test: 34.6
04:27:05 <GregorR-L> I'm glad to see bfjoust is being used.
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04:27:32 <GregorR-L> Any further complaints from anybody?
04:27:51 <pikhq> You aren't creating a digital manifestation of God.
04:27:53 <nescience> i think the game won't go all that far
04:28:14 <nescience> it's about the best it can be in its current form, but there really aren't that many options
04:28:23 <nescience> there are a number of comments on the wiki talk page
04:29:17 <nescience> i'm not a huge fan of BF in the first place
04:29:37 <GregorR-L> When is bfjoust from ... does FYB predate it?
04:32:40 <nescience> in the true spirit of capture the flag, what would happen if you had to come back to your base and set your own flag back to 128? ;)
04:32:52 <nescience> too complicated surely, also nobody would be able to keep track of their flag
04:36:53 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_minimangler: 0.0
04:37:33 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_minimangler: 0.0
04:39:28 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_cheers: 4.5
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04:51:13 * coppro starts working on the Evil Calculus Book of Doom
04:54:58 <oerjan> itym the Evil Doom Calculus Book of the Apocalypse
05:04:43 <coppro> stupid fact that I have to do tons of coursework even though I'm challenging the course
05:04:53 <coppro> make a programming language using wikipedia links
05:09:11 <Gracenotes> article is the first namespace, but its numbering is 0
05:09:49 <Gracenotes> perhaps you could make a graph based on what articles link to each other?
05:10:13 <Gracenotes> although there are already dumps that have that information
05:10:18 <Gracenotes> you could do lots of interesting stuff with that
05:10:37 <Gracenotes> shortest path between two articles, for example
05:14:27 <Gracenotes> bsmntbombdood: there's always Markov chains
05:17:17 <GregorR-L> "The logistics of who can get drunk are nontrivial."
05:17:54 <coppro> I think you've had quite enough already
05:18:37 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: schorry, i cant 'elp chu there
05:19:30 <Gracenotes> hm. I should try implementing Flesch-Kincaid in Haskell
05:21:59 <oerjan> the syllable part may be a bit complicated
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05:23:43 <Gracenotes> actually it's less complicated than I thought
05:23:57 <Gracenotes> http://flesh.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/flesh/Flesh%201.5/FleshLogic.java?revision=1.3&view=markup#l_523
05:24:05 <Gracenotes> more of a guess... but seems accurate enough
05:24:15 <Gracenotes> might be worth it to have a special table for corner cases
05:24:47 <Gracenotes> it doesn't say whether or not this is a standard algorithm. rather specific to English anyway
05:25:56 <Gracenotes> yeah... that's messed up. it worked a second ago
05:26:50 <Gracenotes> actually, it does screw up quite a bit: http://flesh.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/flesh/Flesh%201.5/CommonMistakes.java?revision=1.3&view=markup
06:03:45 <coppro> Floridan insurance brokers, per Wikipedia
06:05:42 <bsmntbombdood> insurance and florida, that's all you need to know about their position
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10:13:25 <Patashu> hmm, still on the top of the hill
10:18:27 <GregorR-L> The next challenge: DOMINATE the hill.
10:19:41 <Patashu> I have no idea how to beat the defense6s and still beat everything else
10:19:45 <Patashu> I haven't even seen their code
10:20:10 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
10:21:22 <GregorR-L> ais posted a link to a commented version ...
10:23:55 <GregorR-L> May 26 16:29:09 <ais523> it attacks something in particular, which is the [-] or [+] loop
10:23:55 <GregorR-L> May 26 16:29:13 <ais523> nearly all programs have one
10:23:55 <GregorR-L> May 26 16:29:38 <ais523> and if they go into such a loop on its flag, then defend6 will keep them in it forever, whilst running off and sinking their flag
10:24:54 <Patashu> and it keeps coming back incrementially to keep it off zero
10:25:16 <Patashu> so it has an ultra-huge source code since there's no construct that says 'repeat this but increase this number by x every time'
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17:40:31 <ehird> cool i still own bf joust
17:42:35 <ehird> 01:38 Patashu: just one glitch
17:42:35 <ehird> 01:38 Patashu: the score it gives is for the LAST time you submitted a program
17:42:37 <ehird> 01:39 Patashu: i.e. one submission delay
17:42:39 <ehird> GregorR: GregorR-L: fix that
17:46:50 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*10([+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]].>)*20
17:46:56 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 41.5
17:47:28 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:47:33 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:47:48 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[--[+++[----[+++++[------[+++++++[--------[+++++++++[----------]]]]]]]]]].>)*20
17:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:48:35 <impomatic> Ehird: is that tailored for the decoys left by the programs on the current hill?
17:49:01 <nescience> lol creep officially beats nothing except the defends now
17:49:04 <ehird> impomatic: pretty much, it tries to find out whether it's big or small and efficiently zeroes it based on that
17:49:10 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(+[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:49:11 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:49:23 <nescience> but amusingly, 'playing the odds' is in 4th
17:49:26 <ehird> hmm flipping them does nothing
17:49:47 <nescience> remember it tends to show your last score
17:49:47 <ehird> 3 | - + + - - - - + - | 42.6| -3| ehird_phantom.bfjoust
17:49:50 <ehird> that's what it was before
17:50:11 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*10(-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:50:12 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:50:17 <impomatic> I was wondering if it's possible to detect certain opponents and use a tailored attack.
17:50:20 <ehird> that put it down to 14.2
17:50:52 <nescience> makes me wonder why so many +s before looping is effective though
17:51:15 <nescience> if it's 10 units long, it's 9 to the enemy flag
17:52:03 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:52:05 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:52:28 <ehird> 5 losses, 3 wins, one draw
17:52:36 <ehird> i think the strategy is essentially good, though
17:54:40 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom http://pastie.org/491591.txt?key=z90epgclqdxxiifgky728a
17:54:42 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 42.6
17:54:51 <ehird> that makes it worse
17:55:06 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:55:08 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 27.8
17:56:14 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3([-[(+)*2[(-)*3[(+)*4[(-)*5[(+)*6[(-)*7[(+)*8[(-)*9[(+)*10]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:56:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 36.4
17:56:29 <ehird> hmm doing it with repeats actually slowed it down
17:56:49 <nescience> Patashu kept getting very different results by varying constants that didn't seem they should make that much difference
17:57:12 <nescience> eh, the spec said repeats don't take any cycles
17:57:30 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*9([(-)*32[(+)*32[(-)*32[(+)*32]]]])*20
17:57:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 36.4
17:57:45 <ehird> nescience: I probably mistyped
17:57:49 <ehird> 3 | - 0 0 - - - - - 0 | 8.0| -6| ehird_phantom.bfjoust
17:58:58 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>)*9([(-)*16[(+)*32[(-)*48]]][-])*20
17:59:00 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 8.0
17:59:14 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom (>-)*3(>+)*3(>)*3(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:59:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 8.0
17:59:17 <ehird> stick to what works.
17:59:43 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom >->->->+>+>+>>>(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
17:59:45 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 33.5
18:00:03 <ehird> nescience: the repeating one for the start got 33.5
18:00:06 <ehird> but this one gets 20.4
18:00:07 <ehird> !bfjoust phantom >->->->+>+>+>>>(+++++[-[++[---[++++[-----[++++++[-------[++++++++[---------[++++++++++]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
18:00:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_phantom: 20.4
18:00:12 <ehird> let's see if it's actually random
18:00:27 <ehird> are you submitting stuff? do it in channel :-P
18:00:44 <nescience> i submitted it a couple times till i got a couple decent cached results
18:00:53 <ehird> nescience: that's called being a jerk
18:00:55 <nescience> this hill is too noisy for such fine tuning
18:01:09 <nescience> if something was done to even out the randomness
18:01:18 <nescience> say, multiple samples *ahem* like i was mentioning yesterday... :P
18:01:20 <impomatic> ehird: I didn't want to flood the channel ;-)
18:01:30 <ehird> impomatic: but I don't notice new programs :-)
18:01:35 <ehird> nescience: yeah I agree now.
18:01:36 <nescience> i bet the max cycles probably doesn't need to be so high either
18:01:44 <ehird> defend6 needs it iirc
18:02:07 <nescience> i wonder how many cycles it'd take to complete at 30 cells
18:02:18 <nescience> i'm sure someone can caluclate but i don't have the required consecutive time atm
18:02:28 <nescience> detecting two [] loops, for examle :P
18:02:47 <ehird> i have 21 programs here. they are provably optimum for their tape length.
18:02:50 <ehird> should I submit them all? :P
18:03:52 <impomatic> !bfjoust viper >--->+++>---(>->+)*3(-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+]]]]]]]]]]>)*20
18:03:54 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_viper: 42.0
18:04:23 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger1 >>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:24 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger2 >>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:27 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger3 >>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:30 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger4 >>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:33 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:34 <impomatic> !bfjoust ferret >(-)*9>(+)*9>---(>->+)*3((-)*10[+]>)*20
18:04:35 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_ferret: 66.0
18:04:36 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:39 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:42 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:45 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:48 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:48 <nescience> what'd you say about being a dick? :P
18:04:51 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger11 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:54 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:04:57 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger13 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:00 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger14 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:03 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:06 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger16 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:09 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger17 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:12 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger18 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:15 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger19 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:18 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:21 <ehird> !bfjoust bugger21 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[-]
18:05:26 <ehird> nescience: impomatic told me to :)
18:05:50 * ehird twiddles thumbs and waits for the report to update
18:06:36 <ehird> DOO DOO DOO DOO DEE DAA DOO DOO DOOOOOOO
18:06:58 <ehird> nescience: technically, I have to submit them all infinite times to be sure of their tape lengths being correct
18:07:09 <ehird> so they'll probably all do awfully
18:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger4: 22.4
18:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger19: 5.7
18:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger11: 18.3
18:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger3: 40.9
18:07:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger10: 4.8
18:07:58 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger21: 5.3
18:08:00 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger16: 7.4
18:08:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger20: 0.0
18:08:04 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger1: 29.4
18:08:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger13: 8.1
18:08:08 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger17: 12.1
18:08:09 <ehird> That's pretty good, like.
18:08:10 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger14: 6.9
18:08:11 <ehird> Guess I got lucky.
18:08:12 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger8: 12.5
18:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger12: 8.3
18:08:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger15: 3.7
18:08:18 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger9: 12.6
18:08:20 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger18: 4.7
18:08:20 <ehird> nescience: look at the report
18:08:22 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger7: 18.8
18:08:24 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger6: 21.1
18:08:24 <ehird> before it trims them
18:08:26 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger2: 42.2
18:08:27 <ehird> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
18:08:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_bugger5: 25.2
18:08:57 <ehird> 2343.678ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust
18:08:57 <ehird> 1342.1710ehird_bugger2.bfjoust
18:09:05 <ehird> i'd say that's pretty good!
18:09:23 <ehird> the power of buggery
18:09:42 <ehird> impomatic: is your ferret designed to be anti-bugger?
18:10:01 <nescience> i don't think anything can be anti-bugger
18:10:13 <ehird> nescience: it can, though
18:10:18 <ehird> it only decrements 128 times, then [-]s
18:10:22 <ehird> so, if you set your flag to 255
18:10:27 <ehird> it has to loop 128 iterations
18:10:33 <ehird> ofc, it'll still *win*
18:10:35 <ehird> it'll just win slower
18:10:41 <impomatic> Yes, I starting coding when you'd pasted the first two. Didn't take long.
18:10:43 <ehird> but correct, there is no way to actually beat it
18:10:48 <ehird> i dunno how buggers do with themselves
18:10:56 <ehird> they win at the same time
18:11:05 <ehird> impomatic: how does yours work?
18:11:25 <ehird> nescience: note - this is in the ideal case, when their tape length is the expected one
18:11:39 <ehird> not that many got that
18:11:57 <ehird> nescience: in every other case, they just either: run right off the tape, or decrement a random cell
18:12:09 <ehird> nescience: I assume ferret sets a bunch of cells
18:12:11 <ehird> and then keeps them up
18:12:14 <ehird> so that it [-]s forever
18:13:10 <impomatic> ehird: just the usual build a decoy the go to the other end of the tape and start zeroing stuff
18:14:12 <ehird> impomatic: submit ferret once more
18:14:19 <ehird> and it'll trim most of them
18:14:20 <nescience> unless the tape length is correct they lose
18:14:32 <ehird> nescience: not if the other opponent suicides
18:14:52 <ehird> impomatic: it only leaves a lot of >10/11 challengers if they're submitted at once
18:14:55 <ehird> if you add ferret, it'll trim
18:15:53 <impomatic> !bfjoust shadow (>(-)*9)*2(>-)*7(>(+)*10[-])*20
18:15:59 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_shadow: 58.0
18:16:24 <ehird> and parody rises once ore
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18:29:19 <nescience> it's really hard to read which number is which warrior
18:29:39 <nescience> and the numbers change because of the case sorting, too
18:29:57 <nescience> what's the chance of reiterating the numbers immediately to the left of the warrior names or something?
18:30:50 <ehird> nescience: i think I'm just going to make my own variant instead of waiting for these to change :)
18:31:03 <ehird> do you think I should have + or -? i.e. which?
18:32:40 <ehird> i was asking purely on aesthetic concerns :)
18:32:59 <ehird> as the main objective is to deplete your opponents flag
18:33:32 <nescience> arrows or ... jesus, i can't think of the name of the things you joust with!
18:33:58 * pikhq should create a Brainfuck variant that uses », ›, and > for different things
18:34:07 <ehird> nescience: ok: < move pointer closer to my flag > move pointer closer to their flag - decrease cell at pointer [ jump after matching closer if cell=0 ] jump after matching opener if cell!=0 . nop
18:34:37 <ehird> nescience: i think flags should start at 255
18:34:44 <ehird> they only start at 128 in joust to make +/- not have an advantage
18:35:01 <nescience> but if you restrict it to only - it becomes about half as interesting
18:35:25 <ehird> nescience: no, I think - vs + is boring. see defend6 vs parody
18:35:32 <ehird> and my flipping of one of impomatics' did it to
18:35:36 <ehird> it just makes it too trivial
18:35:40 <ehird> as programs become tailored to one
18:35:44 <ehird> and flipping them decimates them
18:36:17 <nescience> rather, it means that nobody has got to the point where they write programs to take account of both polarities for example :P
18:36:36 <nescience> if you want to talk about trivial, what exactly are you going to write a program to do that only decrements?
18:36:46 <ehird> nescience: doesn't rushpolarity take into account that?
18:36:54 <ehird> i'm just not convinced it's an interesting aspect
18:37:29 <ehird> nescience: then how about thingy's idea
18:37:35 <ehird> the polarity is flipped or not randomly before execution
18:37:40 <ehird> same as with tape lengths
18:37:46 <ehird> we do it for all (tape length,polarity) combinations
18:38:03 <ehird> i'm going to write it in C, so it should be fast enough for that
18:38:09 <ehird> nescience: sound good?
18:38:32 <nescience> i'm not sure how i feel about that, but it would at least get rid of the "swap the signs" bit
18:38:50 <nescience> i guess it is true that you'll get the same program if you swap them
18:39:22 <ehird> nescience: it forces you to take in account polarity, still
18:39:25 <ehird> without being able to just swap things
18:40:33 <nescience> in that you still can benefit from "figuring out" which way to go
18:40:54 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ehm, so north korea just said they're going to nuke the shit out of your country
18:41:18 <ehird> nescience: you have to handle both +ers and -ers
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18:47:38 <ehird> nescience: definitely, though, randomness is the bad
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19:15:46 <ehird> OK, it's implementation time.
19:16:07 <nescience> that's totally out of character for them
19:18:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> OK, it's implementation time. <-- of what
19:18:44 <AnMaster> (as you can see above I was disconnected)
19:18:44 <ehird> AnMaster: ~20 lines up.
19:18:54 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.05.27
19:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, a language based on magnetic tape?
19:20:37 <AnMaster> ehird, from reading ~20 lines up in the log :P
19:20:47 <ehird> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeno.
19:22:59 <ehird> nescience: how many cycles do you think I should allow?
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19:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, theory 2: a variant of bfjoust
19:25:33 <ehird> You found the page up button!
19:25:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:26:03 <ehird> I'm plotting revolution by writing a better bf joust ;)
19:26:11 <ais523> ehird: as in, better rules, or better interp?
19:26:16 <ais523> the interp can definitely be improved
19:26:29 <ehird> it's varying randomly according to tape length [implementation issue], just flipping +/- can change the hill wildly [design issue]
19:26:35 <ais523> but if you want to improve the rules, /please/ do it a different way from zzo38
19:26:36 <ehird> and it's really slow [implementation]
19:26:53 <ehird> for the former, run all tape lengths and take the average (requires fixing #3)
19:27:02 <ehird> for the latter, add another variable: is_plus_and_minus_flipped
19:27:05 <ehird> and do the solution to #1 for it too
19:27:13 <ehird> for the latter latter, write it in C and make it superfast
19:27:14 <ais523> so you aren't changing the language rules, but the tournament rules
19:27:19 <ais523> I agree with you on that
19:27:23 <ehird> ais523: well, the flipping +/- thing
19:27:35 <ais523> either you randomly flip one program, or you don't
19:27:36 <ehird> means that you can't just rip off someone else's program, flip +/- and dominate the hill
19:27:41 <ehird> ais523: actually, no
19:27:48 <ehird> ais523: but not randomly
19:27:53 <ehird> ais523: just like how you try all tape lengths and take the averag
19:28:05 <ehird> try every combination, take the average score
19:28:13 <ehird> that means the same program will always have the same score
19:28:55 <ehird> ais523: how did zzo do it?
19:29:25 <ais523> ehird: having , read from the opponent's . output
19:29:28 <ais523> and a couple of other dubious changes
19:29:38 <ehird> ais523: that change is very zzo
19:29:41 <ehird> link to his variant?
19:29:47 <ais523> ehird: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust
19:29:57 <ehird> grr, wiki seems to be slow
19:30:09 <ehird> ais523: btw, you know how it has to stay 0 for two cycles?
19:30:21 <ehird> that means that [-] works if it isn't tampered with. [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](two cycles)
19:30:23 <ehird> is that intentional?
19:30:33 <ehird> but it was unintuitive to me at first
19:30:38 <ais523> not quite, but when I noticed I realised it was correct, so didn't change it
19:30:48 <ehird> Safari can’t open the page “http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:BF_Joust” because the server unexpectedly dropped the connection. This sometimes occurs when the server is busy. Wait for a few minutes, and then try again.
19:30:52 * pikhq observes that [-]-] is an infinite loop
19:31:00 <ais523> pikhq: not in BF Joust
19:31:11 <ehird> pikhq: i'm counting cycles
19:31:15 <ais523> there is no way to write a definitively 100% infinite loop in BF Joust
19:31:18 <ehird> [-] runs [-]-]-]-]-]-]-]
19:31:23 <ehird> pikhq: not program
19:31:27 <ais523> because the data on the tape might change due to the opponent messing with it
19:31:32 <ehird> [ ticks, - ticks, ] ticks, - ticks, ] ticks
19:31:40 <ehird> also, what ais523 said
19:31:48 <ehird> ais523: [[In case of a draw, figure out who would have lost using the old rule that whoever's flag is zero loses immediately (and determine the winner according to this rule). ]]
19:31:50 <ehird> ok, that's just ridiculous
19:31:55 <ehird> [[If both programs have ended and neither player's flag is zero, then both programs shall restart from the beginning with the tape pointer pointing to their own flag again like it was at the start, but using the current values on the tape instead of resetting them to zero. ]]
19:32:02 <ehird> all of them are ridiculous :)
19:32:15 <ehird> ais523: how could you even use ,/.
19:32:18 <ehird> you couldn't use it to your advantage
19:32:22 <ehird> because your opponent would always lie
19:32:30 <ais523> ehird: I don't think they'd even be lying
19:32:41 <ais523> given that there's no information as to what the random stream of data means anyway
19:32:55 <ais523> it's like, if I say 6 202 34, am I lying?
19:33:20 <ehird> [[[ and ] should take the value on the tape *after* the opponent has (potentially) modified it.]
19:33:26 <ehird> ais523: does it do it before modification?
19:33:30 <ehird> two opcodes running at once is sticky
19:33:34 <ais523> it takes the value at the start of the cycle
19:33:53 <ais523> I experimented with before and after
19:34:00 <ehird> ais523: ah, and before worked better?
19:34:07 <ais523> and decided that although it made a difference, it didn't fundamentally change the nature of things
19:34:12 <ais523> so left it where Kerim had it
19:34:23 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Byte_Syze&curid=2347&diff=14541&oldid=14540
19:34:31 <pikhq> !bfjoust foo .[+.]
19:34:37 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_foo: 17.5
19:34:41 <ehird> pikhq: that's just a suicider
19:34:43 <ehird> a slow one at that
19:34:52 <pikhq> Seems to be effective.
19:34:58 <ehird> but I don't think any program will try and give your flag viagra— what?
19:35:00 <ehird> How is that effective?
19:35:11 <pikhq> It has a positive score. :p
19:35:12 <ehird> if we weren't caching scores, the top program gets ~85pts
19:35:16 <ehird> pikhq: all scores are positive
19:35:17 <ais523> pikhq: we changed the scoring
19:35:19 <ehird> points are negative
19:35:25 <ais523> 50% is average, 0% is terrible, 100% is perfect
19:35:49 <ehird> ais523: i submitted (>)*N(-)*128[-] (but manually expanded) for all possible tape lengths today
19:35:54 <ehird> one even got ~40-something
19:35:55 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
19:36:04 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_foo: 20.5
19:36:08 <ehird> if you resubmit a program
19:36:10 <ehird> you get its last score
19:36:15 <ehird> you have to look at the report to get the proper one
19:36:23 <ehird> ais523: why do you think i'm writing my own :)
19:36:31 <ehird> ais523: also, well, taking the value at the start requires copying
19:36:42 <ehird> with after-modification
19:36:45 <ehird> you have to wait for your opponent
19:36:48 <ehird> which is just as much fuss
19:36:54 <ais523> it only requires copying for one of the programs
19:36:58 <ais523> and it's as much fuss both ways round
19:37:15 <ais523> you could order the execution of the programs inside the interp in the way that avoids copying, but that's even fussier in other ways
19:38:28 <ehird> ais523: do you think I should keep the 20k max cycles?
19:38:50 <ehird> it may take 3s to execute one combination for 20k cycles in your perl interp, but it'll probably be on the order of milliseconds for mine :)
19:38:51 <ais523> I determined that number via experiment
19:39:04 <ais523> as in, if you make it much lower, valid programs start drawing rather than winning
19:39:11 <ehird> but then we have the reverse polarity
19:39:19 <ehird> 0 (no flip), 1 (flip left), 2 (flip right)
19:39:28 <ehird> is that 20**3 for the tape lengths and polarity
19:39:58 <ehird> ais523: hm, oh dear
19:40:07 <ehird> for all tape length combinations, and the three polarity states,
19:40:16 <ehird> ais523: is 8000 executions per (prog1,prog2)
19:40:24 <ehird> ais523: no i don't
19:40:25 <ais523> because flipping either program has the same effect
19:40:31 <ais523> and flipping both has the same effect as flipping neither
19:40:44 <ais523> ehird: the values at the start are either 128 or 0
19:40:46 <ehird> hmm, i'll take your word for the left-is-right
19:40:53 <ehird> ais523: yeah, you're right
19:40:58 <ehird> which of left/right should I flip?
19:41:00 <ehird> i don't wanna be biased :D
19:41:05 <ais523> it makes no difference to the result
19:41:18 <ehird> 0 = no flip, 1 = flip, the
19:41:36 <ais523> and you need 20 * 2 (no exponentiation)
19:41:47 <ais523> each of the 21 possible lengths in each of the 2 flip states
19:41:55 <ehird> i'll finish the message I was typing anyway:
19:42:00 <ehird> ais523: well, that's good; with 3 flip states, I have to run the match 8000 times— so if I take 25ms to run one iteration, that's 200 seconds!
19:42:02 <ehird> ↑ disclaimer: wrong
19:42:45 <ais523> 200 seconds would be a bit slower than it currently is; OTOH, you'd have a fairer tournament
19:42:47 <ehird> ais523: OK, if I take 25ms to run one iteration (reasonable, I think) and do all 21 tape lengths, and have 2 polarity states, a match will take 1.05 seconds
19:42:58 <ehird> a full complete matchup of (prog1,prog2)
19:43:33 <ehird> ais523: err, for 10 programs, you have how many pairs of (prog1,prog2)? my brain is in coding mode atm...
19:45:00 <ehird> ais523: so, assuming I do no caching whatsoever, and have a 10-length hill (one less than the current hill; it's 0-10, I guess as a mistake) then it'd take 47.25 seconds to run all matches
19:45:08 <ehird> fairly and deterministically, on every combination of tape length/polarity
19:45:10 <ehird> that's not bad at all
19:45:14 <ehird> and with some caching..
19:45:39 <ais523> with some caching, you only need to run the 9 matches involving the current challenger
19:45:42 <ais523> but I don't think that is a mistake
19:45:50 <ais523> the hill atm is 10 returning programs, plus 1 newbie
19:46:31 <ehird> ais523: so 51.45 seconds then
19:46:47 <ehird> ais523: 9.45 seconds, then, with caching
19:46:58 <ehird> ais523: hmm... do you think 25ms for a match is over or underestimating?
19:47:02 <ais523> are you going to pre-expand programs? or expand on the fly to save memory?
19:47:13 <ais523> some of them are likely to get very long with abbreviations removed
19:47:27 <ehird> ais523: i don't care about memory usag
19:47:33 <ehird> ais523: how long's defend6 expanded?
19:47:39 <ehird> not more than a few kilobytes, I'd wager
19:48:02 <ais523> yep, defend5 is possibly quite long though
19:48:20 <ehird> ais523: megabytes?
19:48:28 <ehird> codu.org runs on a VPS with 1GB of RAM
19:48:37 <ehird> i'm sure a few megabytes is just fine
19:48:50 <ais523> but the reason I didn't expand is that the way I programmed my interp, I'm O(n) below the optimum
19:48:59 <ais523> so it's like I wrote a Mathematica program rather than a C program
19:49:10 <ais523> you can make each cycle run in O(1) time, though, so the length of the program isn't an issue
19:49:26 <ehird> ais523: I'm probably going to have a trivial optimization step
19:49:31 <ehird> ++++++++++++++++++ -> +*foo
19:49:33 <ehird> nothing fancy at all
19:49:44 <ehird> ais523: you know your (x)*foo thing?
19:49:47 <ehird> it doesn't change cycles, does it?
19:49:51 <ehird> you said it makes the program "run faster"
19:49:53 <ais523> it's strictly abbreviations
19:49:55 <ehird> i guess that's just interp time
19:49:57 <ais523> it makes the interp run faster
19:49:59 <ehird> ais523: ok, I won't do any optimization at all
19:50:09 <ais523> rather than the program in gametime
19:50:11 <ehird> after all, a cycle will probably take a fraction of a millisecond
19:52:25 <ehird> okay then, time to write the interpreter loop
19:54:33 <ehird> ais523: are you sure, by the way, that 20 is a good variation in tape length?
19:54:37 <ehird> I would go for 10 max
19:54:42 <ehird> otherwise, strategies are too unpredictable
19:55:00 <ehird> IMO tape length variation should just stop the lame strategy of (>)*constant mwahaha i'm at the opponent's flag!
19:55:08 <ais523> ehird: I was wondering about that
19:55:20 <ais523> I definitely want to keep the tape length shorter than 32
19:55:25 <ais523> and I wanted the chance of a very short tape
19:55:34 <ais523> but maybe 10-20, or even 10-15, would be a better variation
19:55:38 <ehird> ais523: also, with the averaging of tape lengths I'm doing, there doesn't need to be enoguh variation
19:55:43 <ehird> ais523: I'd go for 15-25
19:55:53 <ehird> 15 is just long enough to not be stuffy
19:56:01 <ehird> and 25 is just short enough not to be massive
19:56:12 <ais523> the idea is that an aggressive program starting >>>>>>>>>>> should be able to arrive before the opponent completes a complex decoy
19:56:15 <ais523> at least some of the time
19:56:40 <ehird> eh, I'll just keep 10-30
19:56:58 <ehird> ais523: btw, how come it's 21 possibilities?
19:57:23 <ehird> #define MAX_CYCLES 20000
19:57:23 <ehird> #define MIN_TAPE_LENGTH 10
19:57:25 <ehird> #define MAX_TAPE_LENGTH 30
19:58:20 <ehird> ais523: is \0 a valid char? :P
19:58:36 <ais523> ehird: if it were, it would be a comment
19:58:43 <ais523> I'd say that if you encounter a \0, treat it as a comment
19:58:50 <ais523> but don't expend effort to make sure it doesn't get eaten before then
19:58:51 <ehird> ais523: C byte arrays, yo.
19:59:05 <ehird> I'll just let it be the end of the string like normal, nobody's gonna use it.
19:59:11 <ais523> or you can just strip out the \0s when loading the program, if oy ucare
19:59:37 <ehird> ais523: how many nested loops do you think there might be?
19:59:48 <ais523> defend5 has several thousand
19:59:55 <ais523> using a ({})% expansion
20:00:04 <ehird> ais523: is the C stack that big, d'you think? :)
20:00:13 <ais523> probably, it depends on your OS
20:00:22 <ais523> on Windows, the default stack is exactly 1 MiB, I think
20:00:25 * ehird runs a simple test program
20:00:26 <ais523> I'm not sure what it is on Linux
20:03:33 <ehird> ais523: on OS X, it's many millions so far
20:04:30 <ehird> maybe gcc removed the tail recursion
20:04:32 * ehird uses the result to make sure
20:04:34 <Deewiant> How about running 'ulimit -s'?
20:04:59 <ehird> 8192, which is surprisingly small. But Deewiant, I want to know how many calls, on average.
20:05:03 <ehird> Not the actual size.
20:05:14 <Deewiant> Just find out the size of your stack frame?
20:06:08 <ehird> ais523: does lostkng have more nesting than defend5, do you think?
20:06:17 <ehird> zsh: segmentation fault ./lance
20:06:20 <ehird> int stack_size(int i)
20:06:25 <ehird> printf("%i\n", foo);
20:06:27 <ehird> return foo + stack_size(i+1);
20:06:31 <ehird> so I should be fine
20:06:45 <ais523> lostkng doesn't seem to nest deeply
20:06:47 <pikhq> 261842 stack calls on my system.
20:07:01 <ehird> ais523: lostkng's bundled interp uses recursion to parse loops, y'see
20:07:04 <ehird> I'm just wondering if that's wise
20:07:09 <ais523> gcc-bf nests a lot more, it's a bit deeper than 256
20:07:18 <ais523> on a sufficiently long program
20:07:24 <ais523> because it uses nested loops to do switch statements
20:08:02 <pikhq> Millions and counting with -Os.
20:08:28 <ehird> pikhq: it may have optimized it into a loop
20:08:38 * pikhq will laugh if it craps out at INTMAX.
20:08:54 <pikhq> ehird: I bet it did at this rate.
20:09:10 <ehird> i suppose the loop's smaller than the recursion
20:09:22 * pikhq does -S and looks at the generated assembly
20:10:08 <ehird> ais523: going through an array's likely to be more efficient than traversing a linked list, isn't it?
20:10:21 <ehird> (I'm thinking about speed upfront because of the large number of combinations I have to run each program through)
20:10:38 <pikhq> It got optimized into a silly loop.
20:10:52 <ehird> ais523: not efficiency, speed
20:10:56 <ehird> pikhq: heh, translate the loop to C?
20:10:57 <ais523> so it depends on the individual opcodes
20:11:12 <ehird> ais523: well, I'm thinking about, e.g. the cache
20:11:13 <ais523> taking the next list element involves dereferencing a pointer
20:11:19 <ehird> ais523: a linked list won't be together in memory
20:11:26 <ehird> so jumps will be further away
20:11:27 <ais523> ehird: could be, depending on how it's allocated
20:11:29 <ehird> an array is all clumped together
20:11:32 <ais523> but it's going to take up more memory
20:11:34 <ehird> ais523: could be, but isn't guaranteed to be
20:11:36 <ais523> so less will fit in the cache
20:11:40 <ais523> so I suspect the array will be faster
20:11:56 <pikhq> void stack_test(int i){while(1)printf("%i", i++);}
20:12:08 <ais523> also, you can use a posix_foo function to tell the memory manager that you're about to read a load of memory sequentially
20:12:14 <ehird> pikhq: that doesn't include a return value
20:12:21 <ehird> which is what I did to attempt to force some recursion
20:12:21 <ais523> maybe even vectorise it!
20:12:26 <ehird> ais523: hahahahahano.
20:14:35 * ehird thinks of names for + and - that don't relate to adding and subtracting, due to polarity issues
20:14:52 <ais523> clockwise and anticlockwise
20:15:06 <ehird> ais523: but... that doesn't even make any sense :D
20:15:16 <ais523> because it's using modular arithmetic
20:15:22 <ais523> the numbers form a circle, not a numberline
20:15:27 <ehird> [+]--+- "Loop dink end loop donk donk dink donk"
20:15:37 <ehird> ais523: but if they're flipped, it'll be anticlockwise and clockwise
20:15:43 <ehird> I want them to not require flipping when...flipped
20:15:47 <ehird> as it's not flipping, just two different views
20:17:51 <ais523> well, clockwise/anticlockwise depends on which end of the tape you're looking from
20:18:04 <ais523> but the problem is, with one polarity, one program's dink will be the other program's donk
20:18:11 <ais523> with the other, they'll both dink the same way
20:18:12 <ehird> ais523: nope, wrong
20:18:16 <ehird> dink doesn't mean any particular way
20:18:17 <ehird> it just means dink
20:18:24 <ehird> add, however, is presumably adding
20:18:27 <ais523> but are you altering the programs when altering the polarity?
20:18:28 <ehird> which would be false under other polarities
20:18:38 <ehird> ais523: the point is, it's defined as:
20:18:47 <ais523> ehird: well, either one program's dink cancels out the other program's donk, or it doesn't
20:18:52 <ehird> + If polarity is floob, increment. If polarity is boolf, decrement.
20:18:54 <ais523> in one polarity, it does; in the other; it doesn't
20:18:58 <ehird> so it's always dink/donk
20:19:29 <ais523> the point is, changing the polarity has to reverse the meanings of +/- for exactly one program
20:19:45 <ehird> ais523: the meanings don't change
20:19:51 <ehird> the definitions of the operations change
20:20:01 <ehird> ais523: that's like saying that the meaning of [ is reversed if the cell is zero
20:20:06 <ais523> reverse the definitions for exactly one program
20:20:07 <ehird> it's not; that check is part of the operation and doesn't change
20:20:14 <ehird> no definition, meaning or anything
20:20:21 <ehird> just a conditional in its definition always evaluates one w ay
20:21:26 <ais523> just bear in mind, that with one polarity, dink in program 1 will do the same thing as dink in program 2
20:21:35 <ais523> with the other polarity, dink in program 1 will do the same thing as donk in program 2
20:21:40 <ehird> ais523: i'm really just trying to be nice to the names dink/donk as they sound funny
20:21:55 <ehird> you may end up convincing me to use clockwise/counterclockwise instead, though :P
20:22:06 <ais523> nah, dink/donk is shorter
20:22:24 <ehird> ais523: > is march, < is retreat
20:22:37 <ais523> heh, that sounds about right
20:23:41 <ehird> ais523: [ = consider, ] = reconsider? :P
20:23:47 <ehird> just trying to go for an intercal vibe :)
20:24:45 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't really reflect the jumpyness of it, though, does it?
20:25:35 <ehird> i'm trying to come up with a military analogist
20:25:48 <ehird> ] = ONE_AND_A_TWO_AND_A is a bit too long.
20:28:51 <ehird> ais523: advantage of linked list— easier to mark end of program
20:31:26 <ehird> ais523: Polarities: sieve, kettle.
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20:34:49 <nescience> ehird, i was just thinking that if you do the swapping thing,
20:35:04 <nescience> ... but, effectively, you only need to do 2
20:35:08 <nescience> 'cause the others would be equivalent
20:35:13 <ehird> nescience: ais523 told me this ages ago :)
20:35:14 <nescience> ... yeah, so i guess you already did that :>
20:35:16 <ehird> i had none, left, both
20:35:24 <ehird> but ais523 told me left=right
20:35:26 <nescience> i'm not reading, just occurred to me to mention it
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20:37:59 <nescience> anyway, this is technically my work computer so i'm sporadic :P
20:38:09 <nescience> you should get super tricky and run all of them in parallel!
20:38:30 <ehird> nescience: iirc, codu only has one virtual cpu
20:38:39 <ehird> so that wouldn't help too much
20:38:43 <ehird> locally, though...
20:40:23 <ehird> "In January 2003, the toothbrush was selected as the number one invention Americans could not live without, beating out the automobile, computer, cell phone, and microwave oven, according to the Lemelson-MIT Invention Index.[4]"
20:41:24 <ehird> ais523: grr, variadic macros are C99 aren't they?
20:42:08 <ais523> although, you can often have the same effect by using a second pair of parens
20:42:18 <ais523> because (a,b) is one param to a macro
20:42:21 <GregorR-L> ehird: This is the USA, not Britain.
20:42:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: in britain we never use toothbrushes
20:42:50 <ehird> as evidenced by our TERRIBLE BRITISH ORAL HYGIENE
20:43:22 <GregorR-L> I used to believe that was just a stereotype, until I went there on vacation :P
20:43:44 <ehird> i am constantly amazed that people actually go here voluntarily
20:43:49 <ehird> it's... not an exciting country
20:43:53 <nescience> stereotypes are usually based in fact
20:43:59 <nescience> i found the same thing about canadians and "eh"
20:44:25 <ehird> nescience: correct, you blond black homosexual. quick, be blackface, dumb and feminine!
20:44:51 <nescience> if you think about it though, stereotyping is a pretty critical function of the human brain
20:45:09 <nescience> imagine if you tried to be politically correct and assume that no ALL bears will maul you if you punch them in the face
20:45:10 <GregorR-L> More accurately, categorization is critical, stereotyping is the unfortunate result of categorization.
20:45:21 <ehird> i'm pretty sure political correctness only applies to humans
20:45:52 <GregorR-L> Be kind to animal rights activists, they're people too! (And therefore other animals are people by proxy)
20:46:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: It was fine until the parenthical, which is bullshit.
20:48:06 <ehird> ais523: nescience: Hokey dokey, interpreter loop time.
20:48:37 <ehird> warrior_id_t run_match(ins_t *a, ins_t *b, polarity_t polarity, int tape_length). Maybe I need 7 more parameters.
20:49:04 <ehird> ais523: (a,b)=(b,a) matchup in your interp, right?
20:49:34 <ais523> and a program against itself always draws
20:49:59 <ehird> ais523: draws have no effect on anything, right?
20:50:08 <ehird> apart from draw count...
20:50:13 <ais523> I don't know how that scoring system works
20:50:16 <ehird> ais523: do you special-case that, btw? it seems like it may be quicker just to run it against itself
20:50:17 <ais523> I wrote the interp, not the scorer
20:50:30 <ais523> you'll need to ask GregorR about tournament infrastructure
20:51:43 <ehird> ais523: pingeriffic
20:52:14 <ais523> ehird: as I said, I don't know
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20:52:21 <ehird> 20:50 ehird: ais523: do you special-case that, btw? it seems like it may be quicker just to run it against itself
20:52:26 <ehird> ais523: that's part of your interp is it not?
20:52:38 <ais523> I don't check for both programs being identical
20:52:44 <ais523> I thought you meant, checking for the same filename
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20:52:54 <ehird> I don't think GregorR's tournament driver pits programs against themselves, since they get spaces
20:52:58 <ehird> instead of 0s (= draw)
20:54:16 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES <-- score system
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20:59:08 <nescience> GregorR-L: well, if you categorized but didn't act on it, it'd be afwul useless, wouldn't it? :P
21:01:33 <GregorR-L> nescience: Categorizing is dividing people into groups, stereotyping is taking properties of some part of the group and blindly applying them to the entire group. Saying "All black people have dark skin" is categorization, since that's the definition of the category, saying "All black people steal cars" is stereotyping.
21:04:51 <ehird> Stereotyping is prescribing to a group a property that is not inherent to it.
21:05:03 <ehird> "All black people have dark skin" → having dark skin is inherent in being black
21:05:18 <ehird> "All people who steal cars steal vehicles" → again, inherent
21:05:23 <ehird> "All black people steal cars" → not
21:05:50 <GregorR-L> I believe that's what I just said.
21:06:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: "stereotyping is taking properties of some part of the group and blindly applying them to the entire group"
21:06:11 <ehird> not the same definition
21:06:17 <ehird> mine is more rigorous and precise
21:06:58 <GregorR-L> I guess stereotyping can be based on properties that apply to nobody, like "All black people have antennae" or "All Jewish people came from the Mother Ship"
21:07:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: "All Jewish people control the banks and are part of the New World Order" would be more of a real-world example
21:07:52 <GregorR-L> The first part is an example of my definition :P
21:08:57 <ehird> [[Fabian Escalante, who was long tasked with protecting the life of Castro, estimated the number of assassination schemes or attempts by the CIA to be 638. Some such attempts allegedly included an exploding cigar, a fungal-infected scuba-diving suit, and a mafia-style shooting.]]
21:09:45 <nescience> stereotypes that are nonsensical, unless they are a joke i guess, are not going to arise
21:10:20 <nescience> it's more like applying an observed link to the whole
21:10:30 <nescience> but it's considered "rude" if the observed link is negative :P
21:10:41 <ehird> nescience: feel free to observe a Jew new world ordering
21:11:39 <nescience> i have observed no links between jews and conspiracy theories, sadly :P
21:11:53 <nescience> you're not likely to catch hell if you say something like "damn, latinas are sexy!"
21:12:16 <ehird> ais523: how many nested loops does defend5 have again?
21:12:38 <ais523> I think it's a bit over 2000
21:12:43 <nescience> "as a female member of latin descent, i am offended by your assertion that i must be sexy! take that back right now!" :>
21:14:34 <ais523> sometimes I fly around in a spaceship...
21:14:53 <ehird> ROCKET OR SMILEY YOU THE PUBLIC DECIDE
21:17:19 <ehird> my c function needs to return a tuple, now i have to pass a pointer
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21:22:07 <ehird> ais523: why are syntactically invalid programs admitted, btw
21:22:10 <ehird> I'd just drop them,
21:22:31 <ais523> ehird: I exit with an error message, I think
21:22:37 <ais523> but the tournament infrastructure doesn't notice
21:22:43 <ehird> ais523: well, ] treats it all as draws
21:22:55 <ais523> it's interpreting the error as a draw
21:23:28 <ehird> you know you need to restructure when [[fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n", filename);]] ends up at column 91
21:29:56 <nescience> you use the points for a program in calculating the points for a program
21:30:11 <ehird> nescience: points for score, no?
21:30:17 <ehird> or score for score
21:30:27 <nescience> The base score of any given program is the sum of:
21:30:29 <nescience> * The values for the programs which it defeated as defined above.
21:30:32 <nescience> * Half the values for the programs that it tied with as defined above.
21:30:46 <nescience> which means, the first time you submit the program, it gets a better score than afterwards
21:30:59 <ehird> nescience: it removes the program you submitted before running
21:31:01 <nescience> since afterwards, whatever programs it defeated are going to have less score
21:31:21 <nescience> but it doesn't recalculate scores for everything on the hill?
21:31:27 <nescience> or rather, i thought that's what the cache thing was about
21:31:38 <GregorR-L> It always recalculates the scores.
21:31:54 <nescience> how do you calculate how many points ANY warrior has
21:31:58 <nescience> even if you remove the new entrant
21:32:13 <nescience> each time you recalculate the score of a given pre-existing warrior, its score is still dependent..?
21:32:28 <GregorR-L> Run it against every program currently on the hill, using the cache instead when available.
21:32:43 <GregorR-L> The score will change with every run, as it is hill-dependent.
21:32:55 <nescience> but points is based on the points of the other programs
21:33:04 <ais523> ehird: you don't know what sort of image it is
21:33:08 <ais523> arguably, iso might be better
21:33:09 <GregorR-L> Score is based on points of the other programs.
21:33:10 <nescience> i don't see how you can have them all in synch without some complicated math ala pagerank :P
21:33:12 <AnMaster> scanned diagram. Must not be lossy.
21:33:19 <ehird> AnMaster: absolutely PNG
21:33:23 <ehird> it's great for geometric shapes
21:33:27 <ais523> there is a non-lossy format for scanned diagrams
21:33:28 <GregorR-L> Points is wins minus losses, score is based on that.
21:33:29 <ehird> AnMaster: 70MB? there's nothing you can do
21:33:29 <AnMaster> which is larger than the xcf at 65 MB
21:33:32 <ehird> it's gonna be gigantic anyway
21:33:36 <ais523> AnMaster: look at Wikimedia Commons for similar files
21:33:37 <ehird> ... 5MB makes a difference to you?
21:33:40 <nescience> i thought it was referring to teh value of those programs' scores
21:33:46 <ehird> AnMaster: just go w/ PNG
21:33:53 <GregorR-L> nescience: Nono, that's their value as in how much they're worth.
21:33:54 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't as good for scans
21:33:54 <ehird> it's simple and near the best you'll prolly get
21:34:01 <ais523> AnMaster: how large is it after running it through pngcrush?
21:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird, also it is 1200 dpi, full A4
21:34:05 <nescience> based on the number of wins they have
21:34:08 <ehird> AnMaster: 5MB is insignificant at 65-70MB size.
21:34:17 <nescience> well at least that can synch up, i see
21:34:21 <GregorR-L> nescience: I didn't want to make a recursive algorithm :P
21:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, that was *after* pngcrush, optipng and advpng
21:34:28 <nescience> seems like it's partly responsible for some of the noise on the hill too :P
21:34:48 <nescience> if you only beat two programs, but those programs beat everything else... should your score be that high i wonder?
21:34:54 <nescience> oh well, it's there for the exploitation!
21:35:03 <ehird> AnMaster: So, you can store 65MB, but not 20MB more?
21:35:19 <AnMaster> I think 65 is too much too for this
21:35:22 <GregorR-L> nescience: I decree that it should be fairly high, but not as high as the program that beat all the others :P
21:35:36 <ehird> 1200dpi + A4 size = big.
21:35:53 <ehird> AnMaster: er, how small is your upstream
21:36:34 <ehird> AnMaster: 600 kbps ~= 1mbit
21:36:59 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=70+megabytes+%2F+600+kilobits+per+second&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
21:37:02 <ehird> AnMaster: 16 minutes?
21:37:10 <ehird> You're fussing over 16 minutes for uploading a PNG?
21:37:14 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that yeah.
21:37:17 <ehird> Nothing better to do I see.
21:37:39 <ehird> AnMaster: So, you have 80 minutes to spend on finding an obscure format that saves 10-20MB, but you can't spend those 80 minutes uploading.
21:37:43 <ehird> Bit ridiculous, that
21:37:52 <nescience> GregorR-L: i agree. i guess there's enough wins to go around
21:37:55 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong. I was just hoping someone here knew something good
21:37:57 <ais523> ehird: it depends on how many of these images AnMaster needs to upload
21:38:07 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said above. 5. At the moment
21:38:10 <GregorR-L> Instead, let's waste 90 minutes arguing about whether obscure formats are worthwhile :P
21:38:11 <ehird> = 80 minutes in total
21:38:12 <nescience> but with some tricksiness it might be possible to submit some warriors to act as stepping stones on each other
21:38:23 <nescience> seems to me like the hill score should be based on a 0 sum approach somehow
21:38:25 <ehird> @ 16 minutes / file
21:38:27 <ehird> which is just fine
21:38:30 <ais523> nescience: we were talking about doing that while the hill was upside-down
21:38:35 <ehird> nescience: gimme an algorithm and it goes into my impl :)
21:38:38 <ais523> in order to try to get good programs there
21:38:40 <GregorR-L> nescience: Mebbe, feel free to give me a new algo :P
21:40:09 <AnMaster> ehird, ~75 kbyte/sec up would be 600 kbit/sec as far as I can tell.
21:40:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you said you usually got 600 kbit/up
21:40:26 <ehird> i calculated based on that
21:40:29 <ehird> = 16 minutes / file
21:40:34 <ehird> = 80 minutes total for 5 files
21:40:35 <nescience> i can't quite wrap my head around what's going on with the current score
21:40:36 <ehird> which isn't a problem
21:40:54 <nescience> as far as how things affect each other i mean
21:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and it might be more in the future. Just 5 today. Probably 20 more next week
21:41:20 <ehird> is this seriously a problem?
21:41:37 <AnMaster> ehird, probably not a one-off!
21:41:50 <ehird> AnMaster: so first it was 5. then 20. now it's 498357348957893457894353495?
21:41:55 <nescience> what's the problem with basing it on most wins, for example?
21:42:12 <nescience> i assume there's some behavior you want from giving more points for defeating "better" warriors
21:42:14 <ehird> nescience: because then you can target bad programs
21:42:19 <ehird> and lose against good ones
21:42:21 <ehird> and rise to the top
21:42:31 <ehird> with the 11-length hill...
21:42:32 <ais523> except, there won't be many bad programs on the hill after a while
21:42:40 <ais523> all the ones there are pretty good, I imagine
21:42:49 <ais523> I'll resubmit attack1, and I bet it'll do terribly
21:42:52 <ais523> despite not being all that bad
21:43:02 <ais523> !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+]
21:43:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1: 13.5
21:43:18 <ehird> 531.50-2impomatic_mirage.bfjoust
21:43:19 <ehird> 113.50-8ais523_attack1.bfjoust
21:43:20 <nescience> being the "best" in this setup no longer means having the best record/defeating the most enemies
21:43:24 <ehird> lowest pts apart from it is
21:43:26 <ehird> 948.50-4nescience_creep.bfjoust
21:43:28 <ais523> yep, lost to everything but creep
21:43:40 <ehird> still, not that terrible
21:43:45 <nescience> and the setup here is such that i don't think it's really much different to target "better" programs than it is to target "worse" programs
21:43:46 <ais523> !bfjoust attack_experimental >>>>>>>>>[>[-]+]
21:43:46 <ehird> we've had 0.0 - 8.0
21:43:55 <nescience> since there's not really much you can do to target any particular program
21:43:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack_experimental: 15.5
21:44:00 <nescience> except something like defend6, for example
21:44:02 <ais523> very slightly better...
21:44:11 <ehird> 1 | - 0 0 - - - - - - + | 15.5| -6| ais523_attack_experimental.bfjoust
21:44:17 <ehird> ais523: two draws and one win isn't too bad
21:44:31 <ais523> how did that draw with defend6, I wonder?
21:44:52 <ehird> !bfjoust revelation_fell_short (>)*9[[-]>+]
21:45:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_revelation_fell_short: 6.5
21:45:08 <ehird> !bfjoust revelation_fell_short (>)*9[[+]>-]
21:45:10 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_revelation_fell_short: 6.5
21:45:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: so first it was 5. then 20. now it's 498357348957893457894353495? <-- stop being silly
21:45:20 <ehird> ais523: see, I can do worse!
21:45:36 <nescience> ehird: an idea regarding the polarity flip:
21:45:39 <AnMaster> just it is 5 today. And "the customer might want more next week ;)"
21:45:45 <nescience> what about taking either the best or the worst score for the attacker?
21:46:00 <ehird> nescience: I think averaging all the combinations is petter
21:46:08 <nescience> well, the average of a win and a loss is a tie
21:46:16 <ais523> attack_experimental never goes into the [] loop
21:46:20 <ais523> nor does revelation_fell_short
21:46:24 <ais523> unless the tape length is exactly 10
21:46:36 <nescience> but if polarity comes into play, either you will take advantage of it or not take advantage of it
21:46:36 <ais523> !bfjoust attack_experimental >>>>>>>>>+[>[-]+]
21:46:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack_experimental: 15.5
21:46:42 <nescience> doing both and averaging is kina mediocre i guess
21:47:59 <ais523> and now it loses to defend6, as it ought to
21:48:10 <nescience> you can discourage taking advantage of polarity (and thus writing more generalized solutions)
21:48:15 <nescience> by taking the worst score of the two
21:48:26 <nescience> or you can promote taking advantage of it by doing the opposite
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21:52:44 <ehird> AnMaster: If polarity is sieve, + (dink) increments and - (donk) decrements for both warriors. If polarity is kettle, the same applies for one warrior, but the other warrior has the operations reversed - dink (+) decrements and donk (-) increments.
21:52:44 <nescience> AnMaster: what we're talking about with "polarity" ..
21:52:44 <ais523> it's meant to work, I'm not sure if it does though
21:52:44 <ais523> because I've never tested
21:52:45 <ehird> AnMaster: This stops people just copying a program and swapping + and - to get an advantage over [-] or [+], etc. but still makes you take into account the other program doing either and both.
21:52:50 <AnMaster> ehird, are these terms from intercal?
21:52:55 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I made them up.
21:52:57 <ais523> ehird: defend6 is robust against swapping + and -, by the way
21:53:16 <ais523> nescience: no, I mean d never finishes
21:53:18 <ehird> ais523: but my parody changes its +s or -s (I forget which) to the other, and beat it for a long time
21:53:19 <ais523> it's the rest of the program
21:53:21 <nescience> and c executes regardless, not just "else"
21:53:28 <ehird> 372.005ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust
21:53:28 <ehird> 263.004ais523_defend6.bfjoust
21:53:41 <ais523> ehird: interesting, that shouldn't make a difference
21:53:46 <ehird> ais523: with my new system, swapping + and - has no effect
21:53:53 <ais523> unless it interacts differently with one of impomatic's anti-defend6 programs
21:53:55 <ehird> ais523: and possibly it's just luck of the draw; it loses some other times
21:53:57 <nescience> ais523: it does, because it depends on the other programs on the hill
21:54:15 <nescience> if you just have a simple [+] loop it will behave one way, and a [-] loop differently
21:54:26 <nescience> when i wrote creep it was 2nd for a while
21:54:43 <nescience> but that was because it loope dso as to wait 256 instructions when it hit your tripwire
21:54:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it tries to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop over its flag
21:54:45 <ehird> AnMaster: it traps a [-] or a [+]
21:54:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it waits until it's 0, then increments/decrements it
21:54:55 <ehird> so that the loop runs once again
21:54:55 <nescience> ehird reversed the "polarity" and i couldn't do that both ways
21:55:01 <nescience> so it required other strategies to beat them both
21:55:08 <nescience> which i pulled off, but were less successful against the rest of the hill
21:55:08 <ais523> nescience: heh, that trick; it's what fool1 used, too
21:55:17 <ais523> on the other hand, that's an insanely bad strategy against an attack program
21:55:18 <ehird> AnMaster: so basically, if you try and just [-] or [+] out the opponents' flag, it infinite loops you then goes and rips off your flag
21:55:30 <ehird> ais523: what does fool do?
21:55:33 <ais523> that's why I think BF Joust is stone/paper/scissors in defence/fool/attack strategies
21:55:34 <nescience> thus my comment that the reason your defend is on top currently is because beating it doesn't give much score so nobody's doin it :P
21:55:44 <ais523> ehird: walks very slowly along the tape, trying to trick defensive programs into suiciding
21:55:48 <ais523> by changing their flag very slowly
21:55:57 <ehird> ais523: defense1 just puts up fakes, right?
21:56:14 <ais523> ehird: no, defense1 is a specific anti-attack1 program
21:56:21 <ehird> so no fakers in the base?
21:56:31 <ais523> it lets its flag go to 0 for one cycle
21:56:34 <ais523> then increases it again
21:56:40 <ais523> and lets the opponent fall off the end
21:56:40 <nescience> it'd be a very distorted rock/paper/scissors
21:56:52 <ais523> defend5 works like that, but for a choice of opposing strategies
21:57:00 <nescience> programs like defend only work in a niche, right now you've got that niche :P
21:57:06 <ehird> Unmatched ] in butt.
21:57:14 <ais523> but impomatic proved with shortsword that a program incapable of falling off the end is not hard to write
21:57:28 <ais523> so defend6 has to be a little more active in its defensive play
21:58:07 <ais523> it can still win defend1-style, but against shortsword and similar programs to it it locks them in place while grabbing the enemy flag a bit at a time
21:58:16 <AnMaster> ais523, btw... that -*- mode string in gcc-bf output
21:58:32 <ais523> yep, I have emacs modes for esolangs
21:58:36 <ais523> which I've pasted in the past
21:58:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't think of a useful way to highlight bf
21:58:43 <ehird> hmm I wonder why it thinks I have an unmatched butt
21:58:46 <ais523> AnMaster: you can highlight comments
21:58:51 <ais523> and stray BF chars inside comments
21:59:07 <ais523> and I colour <> differently to +- differently to [] differently to ,.
21:59:11 <ais523> to make the program a bit faster to read
21:59:14 <AnMaster> ais523 what about [-]>++<++++++++ ?
21:59:27 <ais523> AnMaster: [-] is a constant 0
21:59:39 <ais523> the +++++++ at the end is highlighted as addition, though
21:59:46 <ais523> it's a syntax highlighter, not an optimising interpreter
21:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, where can I find this thing
22:00:02 <AnMaster> and does it highlight b98 too?
22:00:04 <ais523> AnMaster: pastebin in logs
22:00:13 <ais523> Befunge is a real pain to syntax-highlight
22:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, which languages then apart from bf
22:00:56 <AnMaster> ais523, you could highlight it mostly based on which character it is. You could handle string mode easily enough for the cardinal directions
22:01:00 <ais523> it also compiles Relambda to Unlambda, a bit buggily
22:01:16 <ais523> AnMaster: can you tell whether an individual Befunge command is part of a string or not?
22:01:19 <ehird> hmm it's parsing really weird
22:01:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and you could partially by tracing program and using that info?
22:01:54 <ais523> ehird: stub code for that, but IIRC I didn't finish it
22:01:55 <ehird> AnMaster: it can be used as both, always
22:02:02 <ehird> ais523: i've used it, I'm sure
22:02:05 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm beginning to worry that you don't understand the concept of syntax highlighting
22:02:21 <AnMaster> ais523, it wouldn't be CLASSICAL syntax highlighting
22:02:22 <ais523> syntax highlighting != flymake
22:02:37 <ehird> how can you use emacs
22:02:39 <ehird> and not know what flymake is?
22:02:49 <ais523> ehird: admittedly, I don't /use/ flymake, but I know what it is
22:03:14 <AnMaster> "flymake not found in emacs info pages"?
22:03:23 <AnMaster> or rather "no flymake in index"
22:03:36 <AnMaster> Info-index: No `flymake' in index <-- there. See it ehird?
22:04:03 <ehird> This is an excellent time to brb, as my stupidity-thermometer was about to blow.
22:04:04 <nescience> ehird: defend is a good example of why giving the *better* score might be advantageous
22:04:10 <nescience> (specifically, the difficulty of overcoming the tripwire strategy and still being viable in other contexts)
22:04:32 <nescience> not really too solidly sure on that one though
22:04:45 <AnMaster> I fail to see what ehird meant with that
22:05:01 <AnMaster> Anyway if emacs docs doesn't list it. it probably isn't there in my emacs version...
22:05:11 <AnMaster> maybe it is gnu emacs specific?
22:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523, so tell me what flymake is
22:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it repeatedly runs make in the background
22:05:52 <ais523> so you get error messages on the fly
22:07:34 <AnMaster> but not very useful. Since it would generate error messages a lot when editing. For example something like typing "if (foo) bar();" (without quotes!) isn't valid at all until completely typed in C at least.
22:07:46 <AnMaster> is that one make for each key-press?
22:08:01 <ais523> I think these problems have been thought about
22:10:48 <AnMaster> ais523, the wiki page mentions that "Note that the commands are specified slightly more precisely than in standard Brainfuck; in particular, the timing surrounding [ and ] is relevant in BF Joust." but doesn't actually describe this timing...
22:11:27 <ais523> they both take one tick, and use the value at the start of the cycle, and jump to the command after the matching pair
22:12:16 <AnMaster> why this interest in joust btw...
22:12:26 <AnMaster> also what does the word "joust" mean
22:13:08 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a sport that hasn't been seriously played for several thousand years
22:13:23 <ais523> it involves two people on horseback riding at each other with lances
22:13:29 <nescience> ehird: did you see my comment about timing in the wiki talk page?
22:13:29 <ais523> and trying to hit each other's shields
22:13:36 <nescience> what do you think about that for your interpreter?
22:14:29 <AnMaster> ais523, several thousands isn't right. More like several hundred.
22:17:09 <Deewiant> Hell, jousting only began in the second millennium CE :-P
22:18:32 <ais523> ehird: have you seen the trailer for Enigma, btw?
22:18:36 <ais523> it's so bad it's hilarious
22:18:59 <AnMaster> why does a certain level of jpeg compression make an image look (badly) photoshopped? Hm... I mean photoshopped as in "made by combining two images"
22:19:29 <AnMaster> like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joust1c.jpeg
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22:20:26 <AnMaster> http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html <-- was it someone in here who wrote that?
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22:22:06 <AnMaster> that explains why the blog seems to focused on war programs...
22:22:33 * AnMaster wonders if you could make a successful pacifist program in joust
22:23:01 <ais523> I just don't know what it would mean in this context
22:23:11 <Deewiant> Makes the other program kill itself?
22:23:22 <ais523> Deewiant: like defence1?
22:23:38 <AnMaster> demonstrations against war should be involved
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22:25:52 <ais523> Deewiant: it defends its flag, trying to get the opponent to fall off the end
22:26:20 <Deewiant> Sounds as close to pacifist as you can get
22:27:55 <Deewiant> Is there some kind of time limit?
22:28:45 <ais523> and after that, it's a draw
22:29:19 <Deewiant> Okay, so then you could make even more of a pacifist
22:30:47 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmer1 [>+*128>+*128<[-]>[-]<<]
22:30:49 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0
22:31:18 <Deewiant> Hmm, did I mess that up, seems like it should tie against the defence-types
22:31:31 <Deewiant> Or do they advance steadily as well
22:32:06 <ais523> Deewiant: defend6 doesn't
22:32:16 <ais523> I mean, it starts >+[]
22:32:25 <ais523> ah, your syntax is wrong
22:32:53 <ais523> probably it broke the interp
22:32:53 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmer1 [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<]
22:32:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0
22:32:55 <ais523> which would explain the low score
22:33:07 <ais523> Deewiant: off the left end
22:33:14 <ais523> I miscounted the > and <
22:33:32 <ais523> Deewiant: let me run it against defend6 locally
22:33:57 <AnMaster> ais523, you said it broke the interpreter? Huh.
22:34:24 <Deewiant> Muah, I won http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/poll.pl
22:34:27 <AnMaster> not that the program seems to make sense either
22:35:03 <ais523> Deewiant: timeout and draw
22:35:17 <Deewiant> So the scoring is just such that it gets 0?
22:35:18 <ais523> bug in the channel reporter
22:35:20 <ais523> if you replace a program
22:35:24 <ais523> it reports its old score, not a new one
22:35:31 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmer1 [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<]
22:35:33 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmer1: 0.0
22:35:43 <AnMaster> what about calling it farmer1a then?
22:35:49 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmer1-fixed [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<]
22:35:56 <ais523> and the report has gone suspiciously blank
22:36:13 <Deewiant> Hyphens not allowed in names? :-P
22:36:20 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmer1_fixed [>(+)*128>(+)*128<[-]>[-]<<]
22:36:28 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
22:36:41 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is blank...
22:36:46 <ais523> I wonder what's happening now?
22:36:58 <ais523> I think EgoBot's mostly dead
22:36:58 <nescience> that's what it's been like when things were going
22:37:03 <ais523> even though it's responding to !help
22:37:10 <nescience> i seem to hae submitted a broken script but i can't see why
22:37:11 <EgoBot> Running daemons: bottles butt
22:37:37 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmer1-fixed: 0.0
22:37:38 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmer1_fixed: 0.0
22:38:04 <ais523> Deewiant: it seems that the scoring method uses doesn't give you points if you don't get any wins
22:38:50 <Deewiant> Hmmnh, that scoring system sucks :-P
22:39:41 <Deewiant> Can those extraneous farmers be removed?
22:39:42 <ais523> nescience: well, I'll probably make a defend7 at some point
22:39:50 <ais523> Deewiant: they will be
22:39:53 <impomatic> It'd be better to run each pair of warriors at every possible tape length and base the score on that.
22:39:56 <ais523> next time a program is submitted
22:39:58 <Deewiant> ais523: Manually, by someone else? :-P
22:39:59 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
22:40:04 <ais523> Deewiant: no, automatically
22:40:16 <ais523> !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+]
22:40:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1: 13.5
22:40:41 <Deewiant> Oh, they're not permanent by default?
22:41:01 <ais523> Deewiant: only the 10 best programs from each run are maintained
22:41:10 <ais523> although your three farmers were placed into the same run, it seems
22:41:25 <GregorR-L> If it doesn't finish a run before you add a new one, the new run will have two added instead of one.
22:41:40 <nescience> sorry for the repeated submissions, i kept missing the refresh to see the chart
22:42:37 <ais523> nescience: you have to wait for the report to regenerate
22:42:58 <ais523> nescience: all ties normally indicates a bug in the program
22:43:03 <nescience> strikes me as highly improbable, but i can't see a problem with the program
22:43:09 <nescience> (>(-)*9)*2>(>-)*4(>[(>(+)*10[-])*20])*20
22:43:57 <ais523> let me run it through my local interp
22:44:16 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:44:44 <ais523> bug in the interp, it doesn't like the syntax (>[(>(+)*10[-])*20])*20
22:44:50 <ais523> I think it doesn't like [] inside ()
22:45:00 <ais523> try using (>[(>(+)*10[-])*20]{})%20 instead
22:45:35 <ais523> nescience: it's the nesting abbreviation
22:45:55 <ais523> it means "20 times, replace the {} with the contents of these parens"
22:46:08 <ais523> so (a{}b)%5 = aaaaabbbbb
22:46:47 <impomatic> Does this work? (a{}b{}c)%5 = aaaaabbbbbccccc
22:47:21 <ais523> impomatic: no, that makes no sense
22:47:31 <ais523> you should write it (a{(b)*5}c)%5
22:47:46 <ais523> Deewiant: only one {} block inside each ()%
22:47:58 <Deewiant> ais523: Yeah, it was at impomatic
22:48:13 <nescience> i don't have the time to concentrate on it >:(
22:48:31 <nescience> or i guess i could just manually expand it
22:50:28 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an improved, []-aware, version of runlength compression
22:51:05 <AnMaster> ais523, no way I will implement that in in-between btw
22:51:12 <ais523> err, you don't have to
22:51:20 <ais523> optimising BF Joust programs makes no sense as it is
22:51:27 <ais523> because all tape elements are volatile
22:51:36 <ais523> you can't even guarantee memory is at 0 after [-]
22:51:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well I thought you might use it in normal bf
22:51:58 <ais523> (and some BF Joust programs specifically check for 0 after [-], as it happens)
22:52:18 <ais523> nescience: wow, that's a good program
22:52:39 <ais523> AnMaster: nescience_shade
22:52:41 <nescience> i just combined his current best code with an idea he put in my head :P
22:53:06 <AnMaster> I mean, this is fairly pointless and boring if I can't see the source.
22:53:06 <ais523> AnMaster: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/nescience_shade.bfjoust
22:53:39 <nescience> i manually expanded it because the interpreter failed on the condensed code
22:53:40 <ais523> nescience: I don't get how that beats defend6
22:54:08 <nescience> and, usefully, inverse defend6's too
22:54:15 -!- nooga has joined.
22:54:22 <nescience> it'll run right off the end for any program that doesn't have decoys though
22:55:32 <ais523> you're right, the tripwire never changes
22:56:05 <ais523> that's brilliant, assuming that the opponent has decoys, and skipping them
22:56:11 <ais523> clearly what defend6 needs is... a decoy decoy!
22:56:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:57:01 <AnMaster> hey, some hats are missing on http://choosemyhat.com/index.php
22:57:18 <AnMaster> (compared to a few months ago at least)
22:57:32 * oerjan gets spam from the Google Kingdom of Thailand, and thinks google branding may be going a bit overboard
22:57:50 <GregorR-L> People don't actually read choosemyhat.com
22:58:25 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, didn't notice the notice at the top
22:58:33 <ais523> oerjan: Google branded spam?
22:58:46 <ais523> !bfjoust defend7 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1436788
22:58:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend7: 68.0
22:59:01 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I was planning to vote for http://codu.org/hats/Tricorn-med.jpg
22:59:49 <oerjan> GregorR-L: the text at the top may be too long, everyone knows AnMaster cannot read more than three lines
23:00:16 <ais523> and straight to the top of the table
23:00:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm trying to do like haskell for everything
23:00:32 <ais523> only program that beats it is impomatic_creep
23:00:50 <oerjan> ais523: the spam text started with the line "Google Kingdom of Thailand"
23:01:17 <AnMaster> so no one is going to ask what I meant with that...
23:01:38 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I guessed
23:02:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: we wickedly refuse to ask
23:02:56 <AnMaster> Lazy evaluation of everything!
23:03:04 <AnMaster> that is the key to getting ehird irritated.
23:03:43 <AnMaster> of course it is, *verbose* lazy evaulation
23:03:55 <ehird> 22:05 AnMaster: maybe it is gnu emacs specific?
23:03:55 <ehird> 22:05 AnMaster is currently using µemacs
23:03:56 <ehird> you think you're so clever, don't you...
23:04:26 <AnMaster> ehird, checked in gnu emacs too and couldn't find it
23:05:05 <ehird> 22:13 nescience: ehird: did you see my comment about timing in the wiki talk page?
23:07:46 -!- Patashu has joined.
23:09:23 <ehird> 14:53:06 <AnMaster> I mean, this is fairly pointless and boring if I can't see the source.
23:09:26 <ehird> original bf joust worked sourceless
23:09:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you are basing that comment on false premises.
23:09:52 <AnMaster> You assume I want to "play the game"
23:10:02 <ehird> i don't give a fuck what you want to do, AnMaster
23:10:04 <AnMaster> I'm interested in reading the source and seeing how it works though
23:10:06 <ehird> never have, never will
23:10:35 <ehird> but you keep seeming to believe I do...
23:10:39 <AnMaster> ehird, my comment is still true. Since I said was referring to myself.
23:10:49 <ehird> that is not what you said.
23:10:49 <AnMaster> I wasn't saying it was pointless for other people
23:11:02 <ais523> !bfjoust defend8 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1436819
23:11:14 <ais523> that one should beat defence programs /and/ most attack programs
23:11:42 <ais523> but it takes ages to run
23:11:47 <AnMaster> ais523, any chance of small and elegant programs ever being best?
23:11:56 <Patashu> doesn't look like it does it
23:12:16 <ais523> AnMaster: programs can be big and still elegant
23:12:21 <ehird> !bfjoust defend8mwahahaha http://pastie.org/492056.txt?key=srkdkdwiqowwbzvvyoow
23:12:24 <Patashu> well actually what we need
23:12:27 <nescience> you can add as many decoys as you want, i can still take you out every time! :>
23:12:29 <Patashu> is a preprocessor command that can take a variable
23:12:36 <nescience> ehird: did you just reverse his +s and -s again?
23:12:36 <AnMaster> ais523, sure. But I didn't say that.
23:12:39 <Patashu> and copies it x times, increasing the value y by 1 each time
23:12:48 <Patashu> (copies a section of code)
23:12:53 <nescience> now that there's 4 copies of defend on there
23:12:56 <ais523> ehird: a +/- flipped version?
23:12:59 <nescience> writing a straight up defend-killer is feasible
23:13:11 <ehird> ais523: boy this is slow
23:13:12 <ais523> nescience: defend7 and defend8 both beat your decoy-skipper
23:13:26 <ais523> ehird: yes, the program isn't handled well by the interpreter
23:13:56 <nescience> ais523: of course, because i used a cheap trick to beat 6
23:14:05 <nescience> but that's far from the only way to beat it
23:14:05 <ais523> it was a clever trick, though
23:14:14 <ais523> defend8 also beats defend6
23:14:15 <nescience> i've already beat it like 5 different ways
23:14:26 <nescience> and now that there's so many.. time to see some other ways
23:14:28 <ais523> AnMaster: deliberately not stepping on the tripwire
23:14:32 <nooga> i wonder how to allow multichar ids in next sadol
23:14:40 <ais523> $ time perl bfjoust.pl defend8.bj defend6.bj > /dev/null
23:14:41 <AnMaster> ais523, how would it know where that tripwire was
23:14:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it can't be to the left of the flag
23:14:58 <ais523> so it must be to the right
23:15:14 <ais523> however, defend7 has a decoy decoy
23:15:31 <ais523> so that nescience's program skips the decoy decoy, and falls into the real decoy
23:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about defend8
23:16:14 <AnMaster> and when will that report be generated... :/
23:16:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it's like defend7, but after 2000 cycles it stops waiting and zooms off to attack the opponent instead
23:16:22 <AnMaster> the interpreter seems horribly slow
23:16:31 <ais523> that's why ehird's writing a faster one
23:16:52 <ehird> dink donk march retreat consider reconsider rest eof
23:17:02 <AnMaster> ais523, why is the old report zapped before the new one is ready
23:17:02 * ehird twiddles with the parser
23:18:18 <nescience> that one can only fall through if the instruction it is on is 0 twice in a row
23:18:24 <Patashu> no brainfuck program can take this long to write
23:18:42 <ais523> Patashu: it's running, just slowly
23:18:47 <nescience> i dunno what the interpreter is written in but it could take a while
23:18:51 <ais523> the problem is that it's trying to do regexen on a very long string
23:19:01 <Patashu> is it unpacking all the *s?
23:19:02 <ais523> that interp is O(n) in the length of the program to run one cycle
23:19:13 <ais523> it has to unpack them when they run
23:19:17 <Patashu> shouldn't it do it all first
23:19:41 <ais523> Patashu: to speed it up, it unpacks as it goes
23:19:49 <ais523> the problem is that regex matching on the unpacked strings is very slow
23:19:58 -!- impomatic has left (?).
23:20:26 <ais523> still, it should have finished by now
23:20:49 <ais523> even if each game takes 40 seconds, I'd expect it to have finished
23:20:58 <ais523> it's only playing another programs, that's 400 seconds
23:21:05 <ais523> or a little under 7 minutes
23:21:39 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
23:21:39 <Patashu> if it's going to run ten games in a row
23:21:45 <EgoBot> Running daemons: bottles butt
23:21:49 <Patashu> it would be much more efficient to unpack it all at the beginning
23:21:55 <ehird> ais523: heh, my interp doesn't even handle the abbreviations
23:21:58 <ehird> that's for a frontend
23:22:00 <ais523> Patashu: much of the program often never needs to unpack
23:22:10 <ais523> ehird: my interp stores the program with the abbreviations in
23:22:10 <pikhq> !c int main(void){printf("HALDO!\n");return 0;}
23:22:11 <AnMaster> it is dead. Borked. Out of order. Not working.
23:22:12 <ais523> and unpacks on the fly
23:22:19 <ais523> AnMaster: the same happened earlier
23:22:23 <Patashu> clearly it's not working very well <.<
23:22:23 <ais523> and then all the results came at once
23:22:32 <ehird> when I submitted the 21 buggerers
23:22:32 <AnMaster> ais523, very odd that it throttles then
23:22:40 <AnMaster> that was part of the point of it
23:22:48 <nescience> i want some time to examine defend8
23:22:54 <nescience> it doesn't just sit there like the others :P
23:23:00 <ehird> "the 21 buggerers" sounds like a biblical story
23:23:04 <ais523> it starts with [ 2000 times
23:23:19 <ais523> and has a copy of defend6 after each ]
23:23:19 <ehird> ais523: how big is it, expanded?
23:23:23 <ais523> (the defend7 setup is before that)
23:23:24 <ehird> 7 billion megabytes?
23:23:24 <pikhq> !c printf("WTF, Egobot?\n");
23:23:36 <nescience> i didn't quite follow that to the end
23:23:40 <ais523> ehird: a bit less than 1 MB
23:23:41 <pikhq> GregorR-L: !c is borken.
23:23:49 <ais523> pikhq: all EgoBot commands seem borken
23:23:54 <ais523> whilst bfjoust is running
23:23:56 <ehird> It's hung up doing something
23:23:58 <ais523> apart from help, daemon, etc
23:23:59 <nescience> i was considering suggesting a "loop max N timse"
23:24:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: EgoBot is borken.
23:24:05 <nescience> obviously that would be better than this
23:24:07 <EgoBot> 97 +++++++++[>+>+++++++>+++++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>>-.------------.+.++++++++++.>----.<+.-----..<.<+. [120]
23:24:16 <ais523> AnMaster: only the interps, it seems
23:24:22 <GregorR-L> I know, I know, when the CPU is being raped by bfjoust nothing else can run.
23:24:25 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the main feature of it
23:24:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: nice foo
23:24:36 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, you need to throttle it then
23:24:39 <nescience> it's not very brainfucky but still
23:24:49 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I thought this slox already did that...
23:25:36 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I guess slox is broken
23:25:46 <ehird> I guess slox doesn't do what you thought.
23:26:23 <nescience> i gues i still don't quite get how {} works
23:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um. What would it do instead of throttling programs.
23:26:29 <nescience> it repeats the part between ( and { X times
23:26:33 <nescience> and the part between } and ) X times?
23:26:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Limit memory usage?
23:26:38 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_simpletest: 20.5
23:26:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend8: 45.1
23:26:38 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_defend8mwahahaha: 58.3
23:26:49 <ais523> defend8 only got 45.1?
23:26:52 <AnMaster> ehird, could you please check what on earth you are talking about
23:26:57 <ehird> ais523: I beat it by reversing polarity!
23:27:14 <ais523> ah, it /lost/ to defend6 and defend7
23:27:17 <ehird> Great Leader AnMaster says slox does one thing. Lo, his superlative opinion is the objective fact!
23:27:19 <ais523> which is strange, as it beat them in my local test
23:27:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program
23:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, GO FUCKING READ THE WEBSITE BEFORE BEING STUID.
23:28:07 <ehird> AAAAAAAAARGH ME AnMaster CRUSH PUNY HUMANLINGS
23:28:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I corrected the typo before you replied.
23:28:23 -!- ais523_ has joined.
23:28:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
23:28:35 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
23:28:40 <AnMaster> ehird, please see http://codu.org/slox.php, then come back again.
23:28:41 <ais523> sorry about that, my grandmother turned off the router by mistake
23:29:04 <ehird> 23:27 ehird: AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program
23:29:05 <ehird> 23:27 ehird: 's CPU usage
23:29:10 <ehird> I did, thank you very much.
23:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, so how would it fail in this case
23:29:50 <ehird> 23:27 ehird: AnMaster: Slow down program != throttle program
23:29:50 <ehird> 23:27 ehird: 's CPU usage
23:30:15 <AnMaster> as far as I can remember from what GregorR said, it is used for all programs that egobot runs. It gives equal limited CPU time to each such program
23:30:33 <AnMaster> the total cpu time for all programs is limited to a max
23:30:48 <ais523> I just tested: defend8 definitely beats defend6
23:31:13 <AnMaster> so non-egobot processes always have a lot
23:31:24 <AnMaster> maybe it fails to use slox for joust
23:31:33 <ais523> and creep beats defend7 too...
23:31:36 <ais523> something weird is going on
23:31:42 <ais523> is that the same creep, or an improved version?
23:31:50 <Patashu> check the source code for it
23:31:55 * ehird wonders wtf his parsing is doing
23:31:59 <nescience> been sitting there about since i submitted it yesterday
23:32:24 <ais523> it still has that 132-cycle wait
23:32:30 <ehird> it parses [>[-]+] as >-]+]
23:32:33 <ais523> it would seem rather vulnerable to fast attack programs...
23:32:41 <ehird> and gives jump locations to non-jumps
23:32:47 <ais523> and yes, creep is a paper strategy
23:32:48 <nescience> that was made to counteract inverse defend
23:33:02 <Patashu> if it's not waiting as long as you need it to sprinkle nops
23:33:03 <ais523> defend programs are doing so well that anti-defence is making a comeback
23:33:23 <ais523> !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+]
23:33:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1: 6.5
23:33:52 <nescience> i'm not sure why the test doesn't beat the defends though
23:34:04 <nescience> [[-]] should loop if it's not 0 twice in a row, correct?
23:34:12 <ais523> it beat creep but lost to everything else
23:34:12 <Patashu> rushpolarity finally got pushed off
23:34:15 <Patashu> survival of the fittest etc
23:34:20 <ais523> nescience: not necessarily
23:34:34 <ais523> I was wondering about 0, 1, 0
23:34:38 <ais523> but yes, it needs two 0s in a row
23:34:54 -!- coppro has joined.
23:35:00 <ais523> so why doesn't what beat defend?
23:35:18 <ehird> I have all the parsing done for an efficient representation
23:35:23 <ehird> so I'm going to write run_match()
23:35:30 <ehird> ais523: two simple warriors, please?
23:35:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what is this representation
23:35:47 <ehird> AnMaster: the very trivial:
23:35:51 <ehird> ins_t *jump; /* NULL unless consider or reconsider */
23:35:53 <ais523> ehird: [>+[]<(.)*258(+)*127]
23:36:00 <ehird> ais523: i said simple
23:36:01 <ehird> like really simple
23:36:32 <nescience> why doesn't my test script beat defend
23:36:36 <ais523> !bfjoust fool2 [++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-]
23:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird, and "consider or reconsider" are strange names for loops?
23:36:57 <ehird> OP_RETREAT, /* < */
23:36:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fool2: 24.0
23:36:59 <ehird> OP_CONSIDER, /* [ */
23:37:00 <ais523> ehird: this is #esoteric, get used to it
23:37:01 <ehird> OP_RECONSIDER, /* ] */
23:37:05 <ehird> OP_EOF, /* (end of program) */
23:37:07 <ehird> AnMaster: you must realise that i _did_ name my two polarities sieve and kettle
23:37:09 <ehird> ais523: defense1, then...
23:37:14 <ehird> coppro: it was a few lines.
23:37:18 <nescience> why doesn't that beat defend, was the question
23:37:18 <AnMaster> ehird, true. You are going ICK style.
23:37:25 <nescience> it should work as far as i can see
23:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: no, intercal styl
23:37:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well. ick has some odd names internally too iirc. Not as many though.
23:38:24 <ais523> !bfjoust fool3 >>>>>>>>>[++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-]
23:38:33 <ais523> ehird: ick does have a few, mostly filenames
23:38:38 <AnMaster> fungot, um... Are you Rincewind?
23:38:38 <fungot> AnMaster: youi usuck,boeings better airbus is a writer and writer for snl and crackin' up watchin' this video..when suddenly the local nbc station froze up.
23:38:49 <ehird> ais523: I just asked for defense1
23:38:55 <ais523> ehird: I pasted it above
23:38:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube*
23:39:04 <ehird> ais523: I cannot find it
23:39:09 <ehird> okay, that's defense1?
23:39:10 <ais523> ehird: see my last comment
23:39:14 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
23:39:18 <ehird> i'm looking for something very trivial :)
23:39:20 <fungot> AnMaster: ' i think you'll find,' he said. " so i should get something.' now lobsang straightened up and stared straight ahead of him, pushing through the bushes, and he'd sat up all night," said
23:39:25 <ais523> and it is very trivial
23:39:34 <fungot> AnMaster: they did. look," said sergeant colon. " i don't think my calculations were that fnord"
23:40:02 <ehird> ais523: kay, [>[-................................................................]-]
23:40:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fool3: 19.0
23:40:32 <ehird> run_match(a, b, POLARITY_SIEVE, 20);
23:40:42 <ais523> !bfjoust fool4 (>(+)*6)*9[++[++[>+[(.)*5-]+>]-]-]
23:41:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fool4: 41.5
23:42:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy (+-)*150000(>)*9([-]>)*21
23:43:12 <ehird> ais523: is it a pain to synchronize the two programs?
23:43:49 <ehird> ais523: so how does [ work?
23:43:53 <Patashu> must be fighting defend8 ;)
23:43:57 <ehird> do you just indescriminately save the current cell before doing anything?
23:44:08 <ais523> ehird: that's how I implemented it
23:44:10 <ais523> after all, it's only one int
23:45:39 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems wasteful. Wouldn't it be better to just directly skip to the other program
23:45:52 <AnMaster> also gcc will optimise away that asm
23:45:59 <AnMaster> you need a volatile asm to actually do it
23:46:33 <ehird> __asm__ about to erupt("nop");
23:46:37 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:46:54 <Patashu> hehe, bfjoust is stuck again
23:46:56 <Patashu> fight to the death with defend8
23:47:11 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_simpletest: 20.5
23:47:30 <ehird> ais523: what happens if a program ends?
23:47:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy (+-)*180000(>)*9([-]>)*21
23:48:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hey I patented lazy evaluation over iIRC
23:48:19 <Patashu> I can't screw around without my instant results
23:48:24 <ehird> you'd have more of a hope at being funny with that joke if you knew what lazy evaluation meant
23:48:33 <nescience> and then execute the opposite of your code which is 0 twice
23:48:34 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
23:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I know. And I'm making a parody on it
23:48:45 <GregorR-L> It is throttled, but bfjoust is only nice'd.
23:48:47 <nescience> like if you are 1 and you dec, you become 0, then if they dec and you add, it's 0 again
23:48:48 <ehird> AnMaster: that's like saying grapes are a parody of bread
23:48:49 <Patashu> oh, I remember how I was doing it with matador
23:48:49 <ais523> ehird: if a program ends, it nops forever
23:48:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm well aware it isn't exactly the same as this.
23:48:55 <Patashu> it was ++- for a while then --+ for a while
23:49:03 -!- coppro has joined.
23:49:12 <nescience> there's nothing wrong with going in only one direction
23:49:18 <nescience> switching direction is what causes a potential loss
23:49:19 <AnMaster> ehird, don't be daft. They are a parody of apples.
23:49:46 <AnMaster> apples are, admittedly, a parody of bred
23:49:50 <ehird> argh, I need a type WARRIOR_A or WARRIOR_B.
23:50:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:50:30 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy ((+)*1024(-))*256(>)*9([-]>)*21
23:50:43 <AnMaster> one has value 0, the other value 1
23:50:51 <Patashu> it doesn't like my program :)
23:50:57 <Patashu> it instantly told nescience what HIS program scored
23:51:10 <ais523> Patashu: yours is probably longer than his
23:51:18 <Patashu> I thought it ran them sequentially
23:51:20 <ais523> either in time to execute, or in physical length
23:51:35 <ais523> but it has to run against all the programs there
23:51:42 <ais523> some of which are slow against various other strategies
23:51:49 <nescience> i wish you guys would at least wait for the table to update before submitting revisions :\
23:52:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, can you fix EgoBot so it doesn't stall every other interpreter if bfjoust runs
23:52:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, properly rate limit, like other interpreters
23:52:40 <AnMaster> I guess this is due to it being implemented as a special command
23:52:43 <ais523> "the reward for a job well done is two more jobs..."
23:53:12 <AnMaster> <nescience> i wish you guys would at least wait for the table to update before submitting revisions :\ <-- agreed
23:53:34 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_simple: 11.8
23:53:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8
23:53:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8
23:53:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8
23:53:38 <AnMaster> or that someone fixed the bug with the table being cleared before the new results were read
23:54:57 <ais523> fool4 is moving up the rankings...
23:55:08 <ais523> and I don't know why 8 is doing so badly, I guess it's tape-length dependent
23:55:15 <ais523> 6 will beat it on a short tape, it'll beat 6 on a long tape
23:55:45 <ais523> nescience: what is simpletest?
23:55:45 <AnMaster> .bfjoust is a very long extension...
23:55:50 <ais523> you haven't pasted the source in-channel
23:55:54 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird told be not to use .bj
23:56:12 <AnMaster> Patashu, you have a dirty mind
23:56:21 <ais523> ehird: my friends use it as an abbreviation for "bonjour"
23:56:23 <ehird> AnMaster: and LOL means Lots of Love.
23:56:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Yep. And BJ means BF Joust.
23:56:55 <nescience> i added a . in case it was some weird parser error
23:56:59 <AnMaster> ehird, "bj" doesn't mean anything specific to me
23:57:25 * ehird thinks of a way to run some code twice in C without a temp var
23:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, repeat the statement twice? :P
23:57:58 <ehird> AnMaster: more than one
23:58:17 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:58:20 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, um. Like foo(); bar(); quux(); foo(); bar(); quux(); ?
23:58:54 <AnMaster> #define REPEAT_SHIT foo(); bar(); quux(); and then REPEAT_SHIT REPEAT_SHIT
23:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: like switch(){gigantic}
23:59:00 <ais523> nescience: it loses to defend6 the same way defend6 beats anything else with [-] in it
23:59:04 <AnMaster> that could be messy in a macro
23:59:51 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if it would affect speed anyway...
00:00:13 <nescience> !bfjoust simpletest (>[-][-][-][-][-])*29
00:00:15 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_simpletest: 28.5
00:00:16 <AnMaster> better profile to make sure you need it
00:00:34 <nescience> ha, somewhere in that mess playing the odds got knocked off
00:00:43 <nescience> guess it eventually had enough entries that got new rolls
00:00:49 <ais523> nescience: the defend6 and up programs beat that by locking them in a [-] loop while grabbing the flags
00:01:21 <nescience> i was considering the same thing, but i thought i had time once you "left"
00:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, so it does something like [>----<+] ?
00:01:48 <ehird> ugh, my main loop is getting ugly
00:02:00 <ais523> AnMaster: a bit like that
00:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird, it is C. What do you expect?
00:02:11 <ais523> it does +*128 every 256 steos
00:02:11 <ehird> still, really ugly.
00:02:12 <nescience> i assume that they don't leave more than ~250 cycles between when they leave their flag, but really it's a timing thing
00:02:14 <ehird> eh, I can refactor it later
00:02:19 <ehird> important thing is that it works, and works fast
00:02:23 <ais523> to cancel out [-] (directly) or [+] (by shunting it past 0 too fast)
00:02:39 <AnMaster> in some cases code duplication DOES speed up however
00:02:47 <ehird> for (current_warrior = WARRIOR_A; current_warrior <= WARRIOR_B; current_warrior++) {
00:02:52 <nescience> right, but still if it doesn't rest on 0 the first time it should come around to it again i thought
00:02:58 <nescience> seemed like there would be time for it
00:03:12 <AnMaster> in cfunge the code for "is vector cardinal" had to be duplicated from vector.c into funge-space.c
00:03:24 <nescience> !bfjoust simpletest (>[[++++++++]])*29
00:03:26 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_simpletest: 28.5
00:03:31 <ais523> AnMaster: why not let the compiler do unrolling?
00:03:45 <AnMaster> ais523, um. It didn't handle inlining between files well
00:04:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and doing a "combine + whole program optimise" is non-trivial
00:04:36 <AnMaster> so you end up with a manual batch file
00:07:13 <nooga> !bfjoust wot (>)*1
00:07:40 <ais523> nooga: what a pointless program...
00:07:50 <Patashu> it doesn't even kill itself
00:08:04 <nooga> tried to figure out how it works
00:08:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Pass all of the files to GCC at the same time.
00:08:19 <nooga> that new toy - bfjoust
00:08:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, gcc -combine -fwhole-program
00:08:29 <Patashu> why don't you go read about it then? :)
00:08:34 <GregorR-L> With bfjoust slox'd, it takes for freaking ever :P
00:08:42 <nooga> Patashu: like where?
00:08:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't help for the cmake build system
00:09:04 <Patashu> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_Joust
00:09:13 <Patashu> and http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/05/bf-joust-king-of-hill.html
00:09:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is better than autotools
00:09:31 <AnMaster> and a nice build system in general
00:13:38 <GregorR-L> /usr/bin/perl ../bfjoust ais523_defend8.bfjoust nescience_simpletest.bfjoust has been running for EVER
00:14:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, did you see what I said about properly slox-limiting it?
00:14:50 <EgoBot> 61 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+><<<<-]>>----.<+.>-.+.>. [291]
00:14:55 <ehird> 00:14 AnMaster: GregorR, did you see what I said about properly slox-limiting it?
00:15:01 <ehird> that is why it is slow.
00:15:01 <Patashu> that's not going to do what you think it does, nooga
00:15:14 <nescience> i just want to see what happened >:(
00:15:19 <pikhq> Earlier, I viewer the generated assembly for a program compiled with -Os.
00:15:28 <GregorR-L> Please WAIT for the run to finish before adding new warriors :P
00:15:30 <pikhq> Among other things, it had "xor %eax, %eax".
00:15:36 <Patashu> it will step forward and fall off the edge
00:15:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, other interpreters are broken, special commands are not
00:15:53 <GregorR-L> $ time ../bfjoust ais523_defend8.bfjoust nescience_simpletest.bfjoust
00:16:15 <ais523> let's hope ehird finishes his new, faster, interpreter soon
00:16:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, So why do other special commands work still
00:16:26 <Patashu> harder better faster interpretier
00:16:31 <ais523> the current interp I've written works very badly on programs like defend8
00:16:52 <GregorR-L> And yet that still doesn't work :P
00:17:02 <ehird> 00:16 ais523: let's hope ehird finishes his new, faster, interpreter soon ← yes, I'm working on it
00:17:08 <ehird> it'll probably be done tomorrow
00:17:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, so why doesn't THAT work then...
00:17:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, or is bf_txtgen not sloxed?
00:17:28 <nescience> GregorR-L: can you have it, instead of replacing report.txt, keep the last X versions?
00:17:36 <GregorR-L> dfhioasfhoidashfupdhafoihaewiospfhdiosahfiud;sfhio
00:17:40 <nescience> i hate to keep submitting this when i only want to see the results once
00:18:01 <AnMaster> nescience, so wait for your turn
00:18:19 <nescience> except i can't sit here f5ing constantly to catch it and people keep submitting
00:18:23 <nescience> so i've missed the results each time
00:18:35 <ais523> the problem is, the better BF Joust gets, the more people want GregorR to do to improve it...
00:18:38 <AnMaster> nescience, wait for the score in channel
00:18:39 <GregorR-L> Currently the CPU is barely in use, so I don't know why other things aren't running.
00:18:47 <nescience> AnMaster: the score-in-channel is broken
00:18:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, maybe restart it then
00:18:55 <nescience> and doesn't tell me how it did against individual programs
00:19:23 <nescience> AnMaster: at the rate this is going, a backup or three would be a simple, effective, solution
00:19:31 <AnMaster> nescience, make a patch that does it
00:19:33 <nescience> and i'd need the code to submit a patch eh?
00:19:39 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
00:19:59 <AnMaster> nescience, now we are waiting for the patch
00:20:31 * GregorR-L is so glad when people defend him for a tick :P
00:20:58 <nescience> AnMaster: shut the hell up for a change, eh?
00:21:14 <nescience> i was attempting to at least be polite to GregorR-L
00:21:46 <AnMaster> nescience, to me that looked more like "buggering"
00:22:02 <nescience> no, you were the one being obnoxious
00:22:12 <GregorR-L> PRIVMSG/tr_21.cmd: fork: Resource temporarily unavailable <-- well here's the problem
00:22:17 <ehird> 00:20 nescience: AnMaster: shut the hell up for a change, eh? ← don't bother
00:22:26 <ehird> i've tried for over a year.
00:23:05 * GregorR-L up'd the limit from 32 procs to 1024 :P
00:23:05 <AnMaster> <nescience> how about backups of report.txt <nescience> GregorR-L: can you have it, instead of replacing report.txt, keep the last X versions? <-- Last two cases.
00:23:19 <pikhq> !c printf("ô_ô\n");
00:23:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, it proably needs to be restarted then
00:23:47 <Patashu> so is that mega bfjoust match stalled or chugging along?
00:23:47 <nescience> i simply realized who to address it to
00:23:53 <Patashu> is there a way to test if it's making progress?
00:23:59 <nescience> so.. yeah, whatever floats your boat i guess
00:24:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is, if you did it in /etc/security/limits
00:24:15 <GregorR-L> It's still running, but it's taking 4 minutes per run of defend8 X_X
00:25:05 <Patashu> would defend8 run faster if you forcefully unrolled all the *s?
00:25:20 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_wot: 10.8
00:25:20 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_wot: 10.8
00:25:40 <Patashu> hang on how'd it beat someone
00:26:01 <GregorR-L> Ha, it beat ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark.bfjoust :P
00:26:03 <Patashu> it beat...defend6 a parody
00:26:18 <nescience> but it didn't beat any of the defends
00:26:36 <ehird> what's nooga_wot's source?
00:27:03 <ais523> haha, I just figured out how
00:27:09 <ehird> AN ARROW TO THE FUTURE
00:27:20 <ais523> a nice case of perfect timing
00:28:08 <Patashu> I curse the ground you stand apon
00:28:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> !bfjoust wat [->] <-- won't that just nop very very early on
00:28:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: yeah, yeah, I'm on it
00:28:39 <ehird> just remove defend8
00:28:41 <ehird> so we can get on with things
00:28:50 <AnMaster> ehird, just finish that interpreter :P
00:29:02 <ehird> removing defend8: 3 seconds
00:29:12 <ehird> finishing interpreter, writing new hill infrastructure, ...: 95893458345 years
00:29:15 <ehird> that slowsi t down
00:29:18 <ehird> abbreviations speed up the interpreter
00:29:29 <nooga> where is score chart?
00:29:34 <GregorR-L> ehird: If the new interpreter just exits with 1 or 2, the new hill infrastructure is one line of change.
00:29:39 <ehird> nooga: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
00:29:41 <ehird> empty while calculating
00:29:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's much much more nuanced than that, and I want to make a new scoring mechanism
00:29:57 <GregorR-L> (Yes, that's on my list, I'm fixing backslashes now)
00:30:29 -!- Halph has joined.
00:30:39 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:30:48 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
00:31:17 <EgoBot> 37 ++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>++.>. [37]
00:31:20 <nooga> wonder if there's something like java golf
00:31:20 <EgoBot> Unsupported instruction ''' (0x27) (maybe not Befunge-93?)
00:33:01 <nooga> Patashu: codegolfing in java is like trying to hide a truck in a matchbox, probably
00:33:17 <Patashu> you have to consider it relatively
00:33:22 <Patashu> you're not going to be smaller than most languages
00:33:26 <Patashu> but you can be small relative to java programs
00:33:36 <Patashu> I beat primo's java program with my own once :)
00:33:38 <ehird> enum H{{System.out.println("Hello, world!");System.exit(0);}}
00:33:50 <ehird> enum is shorter than class, and using a static declaration + exit to avoid the no main error
00:33:57 <ehird> is shorter than declaring a main method
00:34:08 <ais523> ehird: that is so wrong
00:34:13 <ehird> ais523: it so works :)
00:34:26 <ais523> ehird: would that run at compile-time?
00:34:30 <nooga> ehird: i'd put System.do.me.a.favor.and.die() instead od System.exit(0);
00:34:30 <pikhq> ehird: That's impressive, actually.
00:34:38 <ehird> enum H{{System.out.println("Hello, world!");System.exit(0);}} ← 62 chars
00:34:41 <ehird> class H{public static void main(String[] args){System.out.println("Hello, world!");}} ← 86 chars
00:34:41 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_wat: 7.0
00:34:53 <Patashu> don't forget you can rename String[] args to String[]_ or similar
00:34:59 <Patashu> that saves four characters
00:35:02 <ehird> class H{public static void main(String[]_){System.out.println("Hello, world!");}}
00:35:07 <nooga> where is nooga_wot ?
00:35:12 <ehird> nooga: it was too bad
00:35:23 <Patashu> okay so is defend8 being removed?
00:35:29 <Patashu> I want to submit stuff on a good conscience
00:35:30 <ehird> nooga: it died before that
00:35:37 <ais523> I don't mind defend8 being removed
00:35:45 <ais523> especially as it seems not to work the way I wanted it to
00:35:45 <Patashu> it looks verbose enough huh ;)
00:36:10 <ehird> c# is basically java w/ less crap and som nice stuff
00:36:28 <pikhq> And less portability.
00:36:33 <ehird> i can't think of any bad stuff it adds to java
00:36:44 <ehird> true, .NET has some bad points
00:36:47 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss
00:36:56 <ehird> but C# as a language is OK, and .NET isn't unportable
00:36:58 <pikhq> "It runs on Windows XP *and* Vista! ... Oh, and Mono, if you want it to."
00:37:06 <ehird> pikhq: Mono runs on everything.
00:37:07 <ais523> ehird: it doesn't port to Mac
00:37:13 <oerjan> GregorR-L: ^ that's still not working
00:37:14 <ais523> I thought Mono was Linux only
00:37:15 <ehird> ais523: Mono runs on OS X
00:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is unportable. Unless you keep being developing on mono
00:37:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Mono is mostly compatible with .NET's base library.
00:37:29 <pikhq> ehird: .NET isn't unportable. However, a lot of .NET code makes Win32 API calls.
00:37:37 <ehird> GUI stuff, not as much. But base library, ...
00:37:41 <AnMaster> ehird, with .NET 1.1 + some of 2.0 yes
00:37:43 <GregorR-L> oerjan: In what way is it failing? I don't see any output.
00:37:50 <ehird> AnMaster: .NET 3.0 = .NET 2.0
00:38:09 <ehird> AnMaster: It is not wrong. The framework itself is identical.
00:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that "in language expression" thing
00:38:24 <ehird> AnMaster: It is not a major release.
00:38:26 <coppro> Mono will run on everything, but that doesn't make .NEt a good idea
00:38:29 <ehird> It is a minor new release
00:38:37 <ehird> coppro: it's just as good as an idea as the JVM...
00:38:38 <oerjan> GregorR-L: it's a 1496 character quine
00:38:50 <oerjan> one line, but i assume it should be cut off...
00:39:11 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss
00:39:12 <EgoBot> /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\//
00:39:15 <coppro> at least JVM is open source
00:39:32 <oerjan> huh now it arrived just with the second character
00:39:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: i know, without /\ it's trivial
00:39:46 <ehird> 00:39 coppro: at least JVM is open source
00:39:53 <oerjan> _with_ /\ it's as hard as any other language
00:39:55 <ehird> But not 1.5 or 1.6.
00:40:01 <ehird> Yes, there is an OpenJDK backport for 1.6.
00:40:07 <ehird> But it isn't totally 1.6 compatible.
00:40:12 <ehird> That is, it's hard to use it as a 1.6.
00:40:13 <oerjan> with _just_ /\, a bit worse :D
00:40:15 <coppro> ehird: yeah, but at least they're tryping
00:40:21 <pikhq> It passes 1.6 compliance tests.
00:40:29 <ehird> pikhq: which means jack shit in the real world.
00:40:42 <ehird> coppro: .NET isn't a canonical implementation, anyway
00:40:46 <ehird> .NET is a CLI implementation
00:40:49 <pikhq> Java's compliance tests are thorough.
00:40:50 <ehird> if you're sane pick the latter
00:40:55 <oerjan> GregorR-L: seems it was just slow, unless it somehow waited for the second command
00:41:02 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaOS << beautiful, but sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:41:07 <nooga> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:41:13 <nooga> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
00:41:13 <ehird> nooga: stop being a retard
00:41:14 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, oerjan has
00:41:20 <ehird> it just has a long startup time
00:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I missed where he proved it
00:41:30 <ehird> nooga: java _is_ fast.
00:41:32 <pikhq> Not so much barebones feature tests as they are comprehensive unit tests, covering the entire JDK.
00:41:42 <coppro> ehird: few people are sane enough to know, mainly because they go "but... WPF"
00:41:42 <nooga> ehird: but not JavaOS
00:41:44 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/
00:42:01 <ehird> nooga: have you tried it? I haven't so I don't konw.
00:42:04 <ais523> GregorR-L: not very impressive atm
00:42:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/bct.sss
00:42:28 <oerjan> but that's far too slow for EgoBot
00:42:57 <ais523> ehird: repeating a comment I made earlier while I wasn't here: have you seen the Enigma trailer?
00:43:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/BCT.hs for the generator of the monstrosity
00:43:06 <ais523> it's so bad it's hilarious
00:43:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, how do you do a non-trivial infinite loop in it then
00:43:08 <ehird> nooga: i asked a question, dick
00:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, for the engima *game*?
00:43:29 <ais523> ehird: http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/EnigmaTrailer1.flv
00:43:35 <nooga> ehird: of course not, it would boot for 9000 years
00:43:39 <ehird> ais523: .flv? Can I have the flash player version?
00:43:43 <ais523> ehird: there isn't one
00:43:49 <ais523> they just gave a link to the flv
00:43:51 <ehird> An .flv without a flash player?
00:43:54 <nooga> i don't have so much time to wait
00:43:57 <ais523> I played it with ffmpeg
00:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523, trailer? Is this Lara Croft on Bio with s/Lara Croft/The black ball/
00:44:04 <ehird> pikhq: yeah sure, requires opening a terminal etc
00:44:05 <GregorR-L> OK, NOW http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/reports/ :P
00:44:09 <ais523> AnMaster: just look at it, it defies explanation
00:44:12 <pikhq> Or VLC or ffmpeg or Xine.
00:44:13 <ais523> well, I could explain it
00:44:17 <ais523> but it's funnier to see it yourself
00:44:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: you self-replicate the program with a quoting scheme. See http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss for the sanest version
00:45:00 <AnMaster> ais523: Cannot find codec matching selected -vo and video format 0x6.
00:45:10 <ais523> AnMaster: what are you trying to watch it with?
00:45:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:45:15 <GregorR-L> Any further requests while I'm poking at EgoBot? Going once, going twice?
00:45:20 <ehird> ais523: enigma is a puzzle game!
00:45:24 <ehird> with fuzzy graphics.
00:45:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Write EgoBot in Plof.
00:45:33 <ais523> ehird: there's encoding fail near the start
00:45:36 <ais523> although it improves later
00:45:45 <ehird> OR MEDITATE IN THE HOLES
00:46:01 <ehird> meditation levels are the opposite of meditation
00:46:07 <AnMaster> File 'EnigmaTrailer1.flv' already exists. Overwrite ? [y/N]
00:46:11 <ehird> more like aggravation
00:46:21 <ehird> AnMaster: by converting it to another format
00:46:35 <ais523> AnMaster: or just use ffplay
00:46:36 <nooga> ehird: java.is.slow.and.verbose()
00:46:44 <GregorR-L> ffmpeg -i <file> output.myfavoriteformat
00:46:46 <ehird> nooga: you're an idiot. java sucks as a language, but it is fast
00:47:07 <ehird> nooga: why do I even bother talking to you? you're more of an idiot than AnMaster
00:47:18 <ehird> ais523: this is the most boring tailer evar
00:47:24 <nooga> ehird: you're asking me?
00:47:35 <ehird> nooga: you have experience in the matter
00:47:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>>>((-.)*512>)*21
00:47:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.8
00:47:48 <ehird> DON'T EAT THEM OR HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH THEM
00:47:58 <ehird> Eat and drink food and water!
00:48:00 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: #esoteric: Where the crowd is always friendly, so long as you don't talk to them. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:48:19 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as you don't talk to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:48:35 * ais523 thinks "enigma includes different floors" is one of the better captions
00:48:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
00:48:45 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 23.6
00:48:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
00:48:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 27.0
00:49:19 <ehird> ais523: Watch me play chess for ages!
00:49:41 <ais523> yes, and it isn't even chess
00:50:06 <GregorR-L> OK, fixed a bug: Now it won't show an old score for an old program :P
00:50:14 <ehird> ais523: have I watched this for 4 minutes already?
00:50:32 <ehird> my brain is leaking out from my ears
00:50:38 <ehird> and underneath my eyes
00:50:53 <ais523> I don't know how anyone could have thought it was a good idea
00:50:58 <ais523> I wonder if it would persuade people to download the game?
00:51:05 <ehird> i'll have to watch it tomorrow when i'm more awake so I find it even funnier
00:51:26 <ais523> " have you seen the death stones ... "
00:51:35 <ehird> yeah that was awful
00:53:08 <ais523> "enigma includes laser games ... "
00:53:41 <ais523> nooga: it's a good game
00:53:52 <ais523> and 6 of my levels are in the next version
00:53:53 <Patashu> what page do I go to to view the report now?
00:53:54 <ais523> terrible advertising, though
00:53:57 <ehird> ais523: oh, you got them in?
00:53:59 <nooga> i remember oxyd magnum under dos
00:53:59 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt no longer updates
00:55:22 <ais523> " this is a temple full of gold ! "
00:55:31 <nooga> enigma runs on OS X
00:55:37 <ais523> enigma runs on lots of things
00:55:46 <ais523> they were discussing my sudoku level with me
00:56:02 <ais523> we need to make it more efficient, in order to work on low-end processors like ARM
00:56:29 <Patashu> sudoku on a microprocessor?
00:56:30 <ehird> ais523: ARM can run full Ubuntu, you know
00:56:38 <ehird> not minimal embedded ARM, though
00:56:51 <ais523> but I was trying to do something inefficient every 100ms
00:57:03 <ais523> we're talking about how to optimise that bit of the code
00:57:43 <ais523> I love the way they add a teaser for the next version ("Rhythm of Space" isn't in Enigma 1.01)
00:58:08 <ehird> ais523: 1.01? is that old or new
00:58:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume it is in svn then
00:58:16 <ais523> 1.10 is the svn version
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01:11:08 <ais523> coppro: the second-best open-source game for Linux
01:11:11 <ais523> after Battle for Wesnoth
01:11:15 <ais523> it runs on everything else too
01:11:18 <ais523> http://enigma-game.org
01:11:45 <coppro> hmm... let's see if it gives DROD a run for it's money
01:11:53 <ais523> ah, I didn't count nethack for some reason
01:12:08 <ais523> probably because it's console-based
01:12:15 <ais523> add GUI to my statement above
01:12:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I also think simutrans is better. Which has a GUI
01:12:34 <AnMaster> but it was originally for windows iirc
01:12:41 <AnMaster> only later was ported to linux
01:12:48 <ais523> well, NetHack was originally for UNIX
01:12:56 <ais523> coppro: download Enigma, anyway, it's a great game
01:13:34 <coppro> drod = www.caravelgames.com btw
01:13:43 <ais523> oh I remember, you hate all the levels except the boring ones
01:13:47 <ais523> which you find interesting
01:13:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: You neglected to mention anything by iD.
01:14:06 <nooga> i want to make some eso coding based puzzle game
01:14:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, Um, isn't the graphics still closed source there iirc
01:14:24 <nooga> you know: arrange some weird runes to make something work
01:14:34 <pikhq> The .wads aren't free.
01:14:43 <ais523> nooga: there's a Brainfuck-based programs in Enigma
01:14:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I have great respect for the fast inverse square root
01:14:55 <pikhq> Well, Doom has shareware .wads.
01:14:58 <ais523> nooga: "print 23", search for it
01:15:07 <ais523> but it's the exception, not the rule
01:15:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't consider it free and open without free and open data
01:15:27 <coppro> I've got the basics down
01:15:28 <ais523> coppro: basically, it's a generic puzzle game
01:15:35 <pikhq> Fine. You're a bit more hardcore than Stallman, but anyways.
01:15:37 <coppro> yeah, try to match the boxes
01:15:39 <nooga> quite common phrase
01:15:42 <coppro> but what are the scrolls for, etc.
01:15:42 <ais523> and what you have to accomplish in a level varies a lot
01:15:43 <pikhq> Total conversions of those games, then?
01:15:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure source may be, but it isn't very useful to the end user
01:15:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, who doesn't own said data
01:15:53 <ais523> that explain what to do
01:16:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I never had doom or quake
01:16:17 <ais523> they go into your inventory when you run over them; left-click to use the item you most recently picked up, mousewheel or right-click to change which item you use
01:16:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: Emerge it; I'm sure it's in Portage.
01:16:52 <pikhq> Those are gratis, not libre, but yeah.
01:17:07 <nooga> OpenTTD is also awesome
01:17:21 <AnMaster> nooga, it sucks compared to simutrans
01:17:30 <ais523> pikhq: you know how with libre files you can theoretically read the source, before running it? Well, AnMaster actually does
01:17:30 <pikhq> You are more 'free and open'-ish than Stallman.
01:17:35 <AnMaster> nooga, like no stations underground. Or tunnels with bends in
01:17:47 <pikhq> ais523: That... Is very scary.
01:18:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, have you ever checked out Second Life?
01:18:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't read the full source of every new glibc or kernel
01:18:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't work in offline mode
01:18:24 <pikhq> Its source is a very... Interesting read.
01:18:24 <nooga> AnMaster: but ottd has quite clean signaling rules
01:18:55 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you never play multiplayer?
01:18:57 <nooga> AnMaster: is it that because you always loose? :D
01:19:04 <pikhq> Oh, fine. By "interesting", I mean that it is Pandora's Box in code form.
01:19:18 <nooga> AnMaster: i'll give it a try
01:19:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm both a bad winner and a bad looser
01:19:29 <pikhq> I think it has half of the STL reimplemented poorly.
01:19:55 <GregorR-L> ais523: Is (a{}b{}c)%5 allowed? And is (a)*5 the same as (a)%5 ?
01:20:24 <pikhq> And its developers are enamoured with XML.
01:20:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm so not ever going to look at that
01:20:42 <pikhq> I think if someone invented a low-level XML language, they would use it.
01:21:03 <coppro> step 1: grab the C++ standard
01:21:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Consider that a goatse-esque thing.
01:21:14 <coppro> step 2: make every token an XML element
01:21:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, <opcode name="mov" to="eax" from="edx" />
01:21:30 <AnMaster> since you can put them in either order
01:21:36 <ais523> GregorR-L: for the first question, no, you can only have one {} in a (); for the second question, no, you need {} in a ()% block, so you'd have to write (a{})%5 to do the same as (a)*5
01:21:40 <AnMaster> <opcode name="mov" to="eax" from="edx" /> or <opcode name="mov" from="edx" to="eax" />
01:22:29 <AnMaster> <opcode to="eax" name="mov" from="edx" />
01:22:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, invalid. Those attributes are required
01:23:13 <AnMaster> however... all labels must have an end
01:23:38 <pikhq> <opcode name="mov" to="eax" from="edx"> Inline comments for the lulz? </>
01:23:38 <AnMaster> <label name="foo" local="yes" /> <!-- same as .Lfoo -->
01:23:49 <AnMaster> <opcode name="mov" to="eax" from="edx" />
01:24:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not valid XML.
01:24:12 <pikhq> The label tag was already closed.
01:24:38 <pikhq> Labels don't nest in assembly.
01:24:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, that was part of the point
01:25:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, and no they aren't allowed to nest
01:25:30 <AnMaster> one level of local can nest in non-local
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01:25:55 <pikhq> I... And... I HATE YOU
01:26:14 <pikhq> BAD XML SCHEMA WRITER, BAD!
01:26:26 <AnMaster> <section name=".rodata" type="data" writable="no">
01:26:54 <coppro> what do the mini black balls do?
01:27:07 <AnMaster> <data name="whatever"><![[CDATA[ ... ]]></data>
01:27:11 <coppro> does that become relevant later?
01:27:17 <AnMaster> not sure that cdata is correct
01:27:24 <ais523> if you have one in your inventory and die, and the level allows resurrection, you end up being resurrected at the start of the level rather than having to restart
01:27:29 <ais523> and yes, I imagine you'll mess up later
01:27:37 <ais523> and fall into water or hit a death stone or something
01:27:42 <ais523> some levels are very lethal
01:28:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, did I get the CDATA signature right?
01:28:35 <pikhq> I DUNNO, I KEEL YOU
01:28:45 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2nkRG2kMI here
01:28:58 <nooga> this is what i am after 20 hours of work
01:29:19 <pikhq> YES. SURE. I DON'T CARE, BURN WITH THE HEAT OF A THOUSAND SUNS!
01:29:38 * pikhq kneels with a nuke strapped to his back. Hits the Big Red Button™.
01:29:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I think this would of course be much better in S-Expressions
01:32:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, why did you have a duke strapped on your back
01:32:06 <AnMaster> and what did the duke think about it
01:33:59 <pikhq> It was the Duke of Nukem, actually.
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01:54:42 <GregorR-L> If both programs + at the same time in the same cell, does 2 get added? It's confusing because they both look at the "in" value...
01:55:17 <ais523> if it doesn't, that's a bug
01:55:26 <GregorR-L> OK, that makes sense, but the "spec" didn't make it clear :P
01:57:00 <coppro> ais523: what do the silver/gold medals and feathers on the level selection screen mean?
01:57:30 <ais523> coppro: feather = unsolved easy level, silver = solved easy level, gold = hard level
01:57:38 <ais523> you can click on the feather button to switch between easy and hard mode
01:58:53 <GregorR-L> And what happens when a program terminates? Just loops?
01:59:08 <coppro> yes, though for pure puzzleness DROD still triumphs
02:01:17 <coppro> is it just me or are the blocks not randomized in hard mode?
02:01:31 <ais523> GregorR-L: infinite nops
02:01:34 <ais523> coppro: on which level?
02:01:41 <ais523> on most levels, the oxyds are random
02:04:17 <coppro> also is it just me, or is par not par?
02:04:36 <ais523> coppro: it's an average score for good players
02:04:46 <coppro> I must really suck then
02:04:48 <ais523> although, if you only just got it, you may not have up-to-date records
02:04:57 <ais523> and most pars are rather hard to get
02:05:00 <coppro> because lots of these I can only hit par if I get real lucky on the draw
02:05:03 <ais523> because many of the good players are realy good
02:05:18 <ais523> also, people going for par keep repeating levels until they get a good time
02:08:28 <ais523> nescience: I've written levels for Enigma
02:08:34 <nescience> oxyd is probably my favorite puzzle series of all time
02:08:34 <ais523> although they're in the next version, not the current one
02:08:54 <nescience> though it's a close tie between oxyd, chip's challenge, and crystalex
02:09:03 <nescience> i haven't tried the user-generated levels in enigma actually
02:09:10 <nescience> i had mixed results the first time i did
02:09:24 <nescience> good level design can be an iffy skill :P
02:09:28 <GregorR-L> Bleh, even with a C impl defend8 is sloooooooow
02:12:55 <GregorR-L> I guess that's because the expanded version is many megs long >_>
02:13:22 <ais523> really? I thought it was slightly less than 1MB
02:13:49 <GregorR-L> My counter trying to sub-parse is at 3M
02:14:33 <oerjan> i would assume expanding is a bad idea if you don't really have to...
02:14:53 <oerjan> and the abbreviations are designed so you don't need it, arent't they
02:15:07 <GregorR-L> I suppose, but it's a huge PITA in C >_>
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02:15:47 <nescience> question, i still don't understand ({})... does (a{b}c)* expand to aabcc?
02:16:01 <ais523> nescience: (a{b}c)%2 expands to aabcc
02:16:15 <ais523> the difference to (a)*2b(c)*2 is that a and c can contain the matching halves of brackets
02:16:23 <nescience> yeah, i did forget the % and 2, whoops
02:16:44 <nescience> matching halves of [] brackets you mean
02:16:57 <nescience> i don't see why that's not possible with ()
02:16:58 <ais523> generally speaking, [] = bracket, () = paren
02:17:04 <ais523> nescience: and because you aren't allowed to do it with ()
02:17:12 <ais523> because trying to partially expand would then be a pain
02:17:16 <nescience> yeah, but i don't always know that the person i'm talking to is also a stickler for syntax names :)
02:17:16 <ais523> as you'd have to lookahead in the program
02:17:27 <oerjan> GregorR-L: you only need to keep a (nesting) counter for each abbreviation, don't you?
02:17:59 <nescience> i wonder what the trouble i had earlier was about
02:18:16 <ais523> nescience: probably a bug
02:18:24 <ais523> I wrote that interpreter in a hurry, and at about 3am
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02:19:23 <nescience> i can't quite grasp it yet, but it seems like you shouldn't need to expand anything at all
02:19:51 <nescience> () operate like a for loop, but ({}) might be more troublesome
02:20:01 <oerjan> ais523: hm it _should_ be possible to make () allow unbalanced [] by keeping track of balance level of each item
02:20:11 <ais523> oerjan: in a hurry, at 3am?
02:20:34 <nescience> on that count, if that's the only reason for {} i think it should be done away with
02:20:35 <oerjan> no, in a calm, relaxed manner
02:20:56 <oerjan> nescience: well {} can also be easier to read can it not
02:21:11 <oerjan> only one *n at the end
02:21:17 <GregorR-L> ais523: Your perl one doesn't expand, does it? I can't read it at all.
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02:21:36 <nescience> ([) is at least a bit more straightforward seeming
02:21:43 <oerjan> nescience: it's sort of like delimited continuations, not that i really understand those
02:21:55 <nescience> i gotta get going to dinner, my grandma is waiting!
02:22:06 * oerjan may be going off the deep end there
02:22:25 <coppro> this level is making my ball go crazy
02:22:33 <GregorR-L> Maybe I need to expand any that include [ or ] ... :(
02:22:52 <oerjan> ais523: i thought a lot about such matching when constructing the unlambda palindromizer
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02:23:11 <oerjan> because it's strangely almost, but not quite equivalent
02:23:12 <ais523> coppro: there are all sorts of weird things in Enigma like that
02:23:19 <ais523> each level gets to set its own laws of physics
02:23:24 <ais523> although most just use the standard ones
02:23:36 <nescience> coppro: you need rock hard control of your iron ballz! (wait, glass?)
02:23:43 <oerjan> *equivalent to parenthesis matching
02:23:56 <ais523> myndzi: new here? I don't recognise you
02:25:05 * oerjan recognizes myndzi from yesterday
02:25:06 * myndzi recognizes oerjan from yesterday
02:25:27 * ais523 catches oerjan in a butterfly net ----\XXXXX/
02:25:41 * oerjan swats his way out -----###
02:25:52 <oerjan> unfortunately i seem to only hit other butterflies
02:26:58 <oerjan> ais523: inside paren matching () (or []) always cancel, so a whole item always reduces to ]...]][[...[
02:27:19 <oerjan> and it's not _that_ hard to construct a calculus of those, for repetition
02:27:26 <ais523> admittedly, that's a rather silly case
02:27:52 <oerjan> ais523: ok there may be a number of corner cases, but it should be doable
02:28:07 <oerjan> that would have a ][ matching totally
02:28:12 <psygnisfive> WARNING: preposterous time in Real Time Clock -- CHECK AND RESET THE DATE!
02:28:28 <ais523> psygnisfive: a genuine warning?
02:28:51 <oerjan> ais523: it's a monoid, of course
02:29:10 <ais523> what was the preposterous time?
02:29:23 <oerjan> you could use it to split up parenthesis matching in parallel :D
02:29:46 <oerjan> psygnisfive: it's irish?
02:30:46 <oerjan> psygnisfive: your computer has been infected with a RIRA virus
02:30:56 <ais523> myndzi: are you here for BF Joust, or just happened to arrive around now by coincidence?
02:31:52 * oerjan tests if myndzi has a response script, as that was too eerie...
02:31:53 * myndzi tests if oerjan has a response script, as that was too eerie...
02:32:42 * ais523 wonders if myndzi is a bot
02:32:43 * myndzi wonders if ais523 is a bot
02:32:57 * GregorR-L , glancing at myndzi, declares that GregorR-L is his lord and master.
02:32:57 * myndzi , glancing at GregorR-L, declares that myndzi is his lord and master.
02:33:18 <ais523> although most bots don't claim to be using mIRC
02:33:31 <ais523> fungot: say hi to myndzi
02:33:32 <fungot> ais523: " what?" the wind, the sharp tin taste of snow. it was just some mud in water... i expect you're not afraid any more," said
02:33:48 <oerjan> ais523: myndzi did converse yesterday though
02:33:50 <ais523> !underload (hi myndzi)S
02:34:19 <oerjan> ais523: he added something to the BF Joust talk page
02:34:40 * ais523 wonders why ehird's reverse version of defend8 is second, whereas the real defend8 is 11th
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02:34:46 <ais523> I suspect tape length randomization
02:34:51 <oerjan> !underload (<CTCP>ACTION bows to myndzi<CTCP>)S
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02:35:11 <ais523> ^ul (<CTCP>ACTION bows to myndzi<CTCP>)S
02:37:54 <psygnisfive> i should invent some sort of world wide web thing
02:38:20 * oerjan invents a PReViouS machine
02:40:19 <oerjan> hm, it gets a bit hairy if you have something like ]]][[
02:40:53 <oerjan> ah, you can analyze it as ](]][[)
02:41:04 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Create some hypertext markup language.
02:41:54 <psygnisfive> pikhq: i would, but unfortunately noone will use it :(
02:42:04 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Call it Gopher.
02:42:19 <oerjan> if you have several in a row, all but the middle one cancel
02:44:03 <oerjan> ]] ] [[ + ]] ] [[ = ]] ]] [[
02:44:19 <oerjan> with the middle ones coming from the middle ones, in terms of who match who
02:47:54 * oerjan thinks this ties into the recent finger tree post on good math, bad math
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02:52:16 <oerjan> (a{b}c)*n -> (a)*n b (c)*n of course
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04:00:22 <psygnisfive> ^ was originally used for lambda notation, in various forms.
04:01:03 <psygnisfive> m̂.m+1 became ˆm.m+1 became ^m.m+1 became λm.m+1
04:01:42 <pikhq> Hmm. Any way of writing a nice lambda with compose?
04:03:50 <oerjan> pikhq: sorry, it's all greek to me
04:04:18 <pikhq> oerjan: The compose key. ;)
04:05:19 * oerjan doesn't think he has seen a compose key since last he sat at a real VT
04:10:29 <pikhq> I've got Win bound to Compose.
04:10:45 <pikhq> It's handy, Ørjan. ;)
04:10:53 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Lets you compose two characters.
04:11:16 <pikhq> For example, I can stick umlauts on something by typing Compose " o
04:12:36 <psygnisfive> i didnt even know w, t, h, and x had diareses D:
04:12:53 <pikhq> That's the composing diareses.
04:13:42 <pikhq> Basically, it's the composing diaresis followed by a character. They are displayed as a single character.
04:14:02 <ais523> whereas, say, n with an umlaut isn't
04:14:07 <pikhq> I can do it without composing.
04:14:10 <ais523> so I suspect some language uses it
04:14:30 <ais523> psygnisfive: it doesn't exist
04:15:02 <pikhq> For some reason, I can't get a ı by typing it, but I *can* get a İ.
04:22:59 <psygnisfive> everyones got a goatee, but g has a mohawk
04:23:56 <psygnisfive> damnit, i want my c's to have a backwards goatee!
04:26:08 <myndzi> oerjan: yesterday... hmmm
04:26:16 <myndzi> i don't know if i joined from here, but
04:26:26 <myndzi> nescience's ident is my nick, so that might be it
04:27:23 <oerjan> but you _did_ comment on the wiki, right?
04:27:27 <myndzi> also (ais523) i am the home computer of nescience, so yeah, bsjoust
04:28:17 <myndzi> i was using 'nescience' at the time
04:28:22 <myndzi> but since i had to register, i used my normal handle
04:28:34 <myndzi> also, try the /me script with colored nicks ;>
04:28:53 <myndzi> though both of you have the same nicklen as me so i guess it wouldn't be totally apparent how cool it is!
04:29:06 <myndzi> nobody tried to exploit it either yet, hehe
04:29:31 <myndzi> the script is primarily there as bait for things like
04:29:45 <myndzi> //nick asshole | me is a myndzi
04:29:58 <pikhq> I'm afraıḋ that whenever I use a letter 'I', I'm goıṅg to have to omıt the I and move ıṫ over a space.
04:30:17 <myndzi> əɹəɥʇ ʎｕｕｎɟ əｌʇʇɪｌ ɐ ѕʞооｌ ʇ ɹｎоʎ
04:30:32 <myndzi> see i have all the fun scripts on this one \o/
04:30:39 <pikhq> Also, the backwards goatee?
04:30:56 <myndzi> your nick is 1 letter too short, and it's not enabled in this channel
04:31:32 <myndzi> there you go, \o/ away! _o| \o/ |o/ \m/ \m/ \o/
04:32:09 <myndzi> like most of my boredom projects
04:32:20 <myndzi> there was a guy in a channel i was in who used \o/ excessively
04:32:36 <myndzi> so i made the script to line up a body under the head
04:32:56 <myndzi> (though that last time, i could swear i put some codes in the way so that it wouldn't react... oh well)
04:33:13 <myndzi> as i said, your nick is too short
04:33:17 <myndzi> you have to put a couple chars before it
04:33:21 <myndzi> the rocker needs an extra space
04:33:27 <myndzi> the little dude lines up without extra space
04:33:40 <myndzi> but his foot would be in my nick for you
04:34:17 <myndzi> though i bet a larger proportion of dudes in here use xchat or something so it probably looks like crap to them
04:34:23 <myndzi> than many irc channels, i mean
04:41:52 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
04:42:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:46:53 <myndzi> i didn't expect my join to confuse people so
04:47:01 <myndzi> i just RDP'd home and joined up so i'd have buffer to read
04:47:18 <myndzi> it's just a silly script
04:47:26 <myndzi> try //nick penis | me likes the myndzi
04:47:42 <myndzi> or //me pokes myndzi in the nose
04:47:58 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to cocks.
04:48:11 * myndzi thinks GregorR-L likes cocks
04:48:30 -!- cocks has changed nick to phalli.
04:48:42 * myndzi thinks GregorR-L likes phalli
04:48:57 <phalli> I figured you had a word list.
04:49:03 <phalli> But "phalli" would be a weird one to be there.
04:49:13 <myndzi> simpler than that, but i'm sure eventually you guys can figure it out
04:49:22 -!- phalli has changed nick to GregorR-L.
04:49:23 <myndzi> also, flood protection
04:49:29 <myndzi> 30 seconds i think is too much, i should reduce it
04:50:06 <myndzi> I can bring my intimacy to the high level
04:50:14 <myndzi> my email tells me so, it must be true
04:50:25 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
04:51:02 <myndzi> but yeah, i also wrote a script to replace my nick with color codes included :)
04:51:13 <myndzi> if the nicks are different sizes it scales the codes as best it can
04:51:37 <myndzi> just one of many silly things i've amassed over the years
04:51:42 <myndzi> ╺┳━┳━━┳━┳┳━┳┳━━┳┳━━┳━┳━━━━━━┳━┳┳━━━━━━━━━━━┳┳┳━━━━┓
04:51:43 <myndzi> ╻┣╸┣━╸┣╸╹┗╸╹┗┳╸┃┗╸╺╋╸┗━━┳━╸┏┛╺┫┗━┓┏╸┏╸╺━┓╺┳┫┃┣╸╺━┳┫
04:51:43 <myndzi> ┃┗┓┗┳╸┗━━━╸╺┳┻┓┗╸╺┳┻━━╸╺┻┳┓┗╸╺┻━╸╹┣╸┣╸┏━┛╺┛╹╹┗╸╺━┛┃
04:51:43 <myndzi> ┣╸┗╸┗━━━━┳┓╺╋╸┗━━╸┗━━┓┏┓╺┛┃┏━┳┓┏╸╻┗┳╋━┛╺┓┏┳╸╺┓╺┳╸╺┫
04:51:46 <myndzi> ┃┏╸┏╸╻╻┏╸╹╹╺┻╸┏╸╺┓╺┳╸┗┛╹┏╸┗┻╸╹┗┛┏┛┏┛╹┏╸╻┣┛┗╸╺┻┳┻╸╺┛
04:51:49 <myndzi> ┗┻━┻━┻┻┻━━━━━━┻━━┻━┻━━━━┻━━━━━━━┻━┻━━┻━┻┻━━━━━┻━━━╸
04:52:51 <myndzi> that's probably bane on freenode huh? :P
04:53:03 <pikhq> *Windows* is bane on Freenode.
04:53:11 <myndzi> i could be running wine :D
04:54:01 <myndzi> every now and again i try to like linux but it just never works out between us
04:54:11 <myndzi> she's a fine woman, but maybe we're just zodiacally incompatible or something
04:56:08 <GregorR-L> Probably uses Primm's or something.
04:56:11 <myndzi> though with the ascii space there's not really enough to work with to make them challenging
04:56:29 <myndzi> i have scripts for like 3 or 4 algorithms heh
04:56:36 <Gracenotes> looks a bit better copying it into a text editor
04:56:48 <myndzi> i've got one that uses eller's algorithm in an @window
04:56:52 <myndzi> but rather than being mean i made it randomly end
04:56:58 <myndzi> it'd be amusing to make it go on forever
04:57:33 <Gracenotes> I used to draw such awesome mazes when I was a kid. with chalk, on my neighborhood street
04:57:43 <Gracenotes> all the kids came out and tried to navigate
04:57:46 <myndzi> for some reason i started doodling one line mazes
04:57:54 <myndzi> i still do on occasion
04:58:05 <myndzi> i also used to make lego marble mazes that would infuriate everybody except me
04:58:11 <myndzi> (fools! i trapped your ball!)
04:58:24 <myndzi> i made a huge one one time that was like 5 stories tall
04:58:36 <myndzi> i had enough space inside to play around with using ramps and various gadgets
04:59:03 <myndzi> Gracenotes: draw a chalk maze around the block.
04:59:14 <myndzi> have the start and end directly next to each other, but make sure they cannot connect
05:00:07 <Gracenotes> hey... this was when I was, like, 8 years old.
05:00:43 <Gracenotes> but they were right next to each other
05:00:50 <myndzi> i think i made lego mazes when i was really young too, except instead of marbles and people trying to solve them, i put ants in them
05:01:03 <myndzi> i had little clear blocks so i could see how far they got!
05:02:34 <GregorR-L> According to my new, fast bfjoust interpreter, defend8 runs off the tape a lot ...
05:02:40 <Gracenotes> and they crawled up the wall, huh? >_>
05:02:57 <myndzi> like my marble mazes, they were 3d
05:03:08 <myndzi> Gracenotes: guess that means it's not dec/incing enough to get the flag
05:03:36 <myndzi> funny. i'm proud of my nick completer but it's got me in the habit of completing nicks with one letter
05:03:43 <myndzi> so if i sense a conflict i automatically type two
05:03:46 <GregorR-L> myndzi: I haven't really read into the programs much, I just want to see if I can get an approximately correct result :P
05:04:17 <Gracenotes> http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm
05:04:26 <myndzi> yeah, i remember that page :)
05:04:34 <Gracenotes> games in mazes prolly aren't that fun, really >_>
05:04:47 <myndzi> nope, mazes are pretty boring when it comes to it
05:05:04 <myndzi> i once saw someone on 4chan request rule 34 on mazes
05:05:10 <myndzi> ...and it was provided
05:05:17 <Gracenotes> because there's an obvious target (the end of the maze), but it takes so long to get to it
05:05:17 <myndzi> it was, of course, a hentai manga
05:05:45 <Gracenotes> most gamers feel like you need intermediate goals, iirc
05:06:12 <myndzi> i am quite patient and persistent
05:06:26 <myndzi> there can be levels with an obvious target that take a long time to get to
05:06:29 <myndzi> but at least they are interesting
05:06:32 <myndzi> there's not much interesting about most mazes
05:06:57 <Gracenotes> still, room-by-room step-based games (roguelikes too, although generally not step-based) can be fun
05:07:10 <myndzi> there's this level in crystalex where you have a two-screen(?) map
05:07:19 <myndzi> with like 150 blocks or something to break
05:07:29 <myndzi> and you have to basically work out a path to break them all in an order that gives you enough points to pass
05:07:40 <myndzi> it was tedious and took a long time, but somehow managed to be interesting anyway
05:07:54 <myndzi> helped by the fact that by the time you encounter it you already have a good idea of some of the tricks you can apply
05:08:11 <myndzi> the solution is such that you can't slip up even once
05:08:23 <myndzi> so even if you figure out something, you have to then pull it off
05:08:26 <myndzi> ..just to see if it works
05:08:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:08:51 <GregorR-L> Damn, egojoust is doing something wrong ...
05:09:03 <GregorR-L> With randomization removed from both, its result is different ...
05:09:15 * coppro needs to find his calculus outlines
05:09:40 <GregorR-L> It's because I un-implemented {} :P
05:10:10 <GregorR-L> No, never mind, that's only in one program, and it's not the only affected program ...
05:10:21 <myndzi> by the way, http://myndzi.tengototen.net/crystalex.rar if the puzzle dudes want to check it out
05:11:19 <myndzi> wait, it's an exe file!
05:11:23 <GregorR-L> .7z would be beautiful, and is also better.
05:11:37 <myndzi> i don't know if it runs under wine
05:11:54 <GregorR-L> I was more just finding excuses to complain :P
05:12:25 <myndzi> that reminds me i never did hold an oxyd thread :(
05:12:31 <myndzi> i had planned to when the crystalex thread completed
05:13:22 * coppro suggest players try DROD - you'll enjoy it
05:13:46 <myndzi> drod falls in that category of games that don't interest me much for some reason
05:13:47 <coppro> if you're scared by the fact that you need to provide monies, that's only for the official levelsets
05:13:52 <myndzi> along with boulderdash style games
05:14:10 <myndzi> i have a hard time putting a finger on my desires in a puzzle game
05:19:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:27:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
05:31:52 * myndzi opens the crayon box and takes out the crayon labeled "confused"
05:32:27 <GregorR-L> I think I've implemented % wrong, but it's right as far as I can see :P
05:33:04 <myndzi> i don't know anything about your code, so i guess i can't help much :)
05:35:04 <GregorR-L> I only suspect that % is the problem because I can produce identical results to ais' in every case except the program with a %
05:35:28 <myndzi> why don't you just print out the expanded version and examine it by eye?
05:37:08 <GregorR-L> And the output from ais' looks all wrong :P
05:38:17 <GregorR-L> Well, it's just that his output is confusing, it does it one step at a time whereas I do what expansion is necessary all at once.
05:38:19 <myndzi> he did say he hacked it together at 3am didn't he?
05:39:46 <myndzi> haha, i'm not sure what i'm looking at
05:40:28 <GregorR-L> (>(+{>}-)%9)*2(>)*5([---[+]]>)*21 // the source
05:41:10 <myndzi> why is it adding -s after the ({})
05:41:32 <myndzi> i think it keeps the ({}) for reference
05:41:38 <myndzi> and when the counter hits 0
05:41:48 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
05:41:49 <myndzi> it drops the parts between ({ and })
05:42:00 <myndzi> it looks funny because it's only showing you the current instruction, so the left side never 'grows'
05:42:15 <myndzi> how's your version come out?
05:42:44 <GregorR-L> >+++++++++>---------%9>+++++++++>---------%9*2>>>>>*5[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>[---[+]]>*21
05:42:58 <GregorR-L> (The leftover "%9", "*2" etc are just skipped as comments)
05:43:10 <myndzi> so the way you compare these then
05:43:20 <myndzi> is take the left character of his output
05:43:23 <myndzi> and concatenate them all
05:43:47 <myndzi> i was trying to do it in notepad but what a pain
05:44:15 <myndzi> 'cause his output is execution
05:44:19 <myndzi> and yours is before that
05:44:23 <myndzi> so.. output execution?
05:44:34 <myndzi> concatenate his left characters into a string
05:44:42 <myndzi> then in yours, concatenate the executed instructions as well
05:44:49 <myndzi> you aren't spending a cycle on the comments are you?
05:45:49 <GregorR-L> My execution trace is >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>
05:45:54 <myndzi> anyway, the only part with the {} is at the start
05:46:14 <myndzi> his..: >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[[>[---[+[[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[[>[---[+[[>[---[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[+[
05:46:14 <myndzi> yours: >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>
05:46:42 <myndzi> looks like the ({})%N part is the same
05:46:53 <myndzi> but you're having weirdness on the brackets
05:47:01 <myndzi> or else not outputting them quite right
05:47:26 <myndzi> oh, also.. are you checking for 0 at the [ character?
05:47:35 <myndzi> it should skip the entire [] block if it's 0
05:47:46 <GregorR-L> ... it should use a cycle there, right?
05:47:53 <myndzi> it should use a cycle on the [
05:47:56 <myndzi> and then skip the ---'s
05:48:15 <myndzi> it looks like you are executing them
05:48:36 <myndzi> ..oh, i dunno, maybe it's not spitting out parts it should be
05:48:55 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
05:49:16 <myndzi> if i skip that kinda stuff they look closer to matching.. a little
05:49:38 <myndzi> also your pointers or something are off
05:49:49 <myndzi> why is it putting ]+++++++++>---------> in after it gets past the % part?
05:50:20 <myndzi> it looks like it maybe expanded correct but executed wrong
05:50:32 <GregorR-L> Must've failed to match loops or something.
05:50:56 <myndzi> it's going back to the start of the first (
05:52:00 <myndzi> which makes more sense
05:53:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
05:54:11 <myndzi> glad you did, 'cause i can barely read c! ;)
05:54:28 <myndzi> rather, it's read-only and understanding through context.. which doesn't always help with debugging
05:54:53 <GregorR-L> Then probably you won't see why this is bad: int *buf = malloc(someSize * sizeof(int)); memset(buf, -1, someSize);
05:55:03 * myndzi gives GregorR-L a (+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+(+)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000)*1000
05:55:28 <myndzi> somesize doesn't have * sizeof too?
05:55:36 <myndzi> the one in memset i mean
05:55:40 <myndzi> that'd explain why it's 0
05:56:41 <myndzi> it still seems like it should be possible to interpret without expansion at all
05:56:45 <myndzi> i have a little time, lemme see if i can work it out
05:57:31 <myndzi> again it occurs to me that i don't quite know how it behaves, lol
05:57:35 <myndzi> what should happen for
05:57:40 <GregorR-L> It interprets without expansion in most cases.
05:58:13 <myndzi> yeah, that's simple seeming
05:58:20 <myndzi> in addition to keeping a pointer, you'd just need to keep a counter too
05:59:27 <GregorR-L> $ time ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report_ais.txt
05:59:27 <GregorR-L> $ time ../report ../egojoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report_ego.txt
05:59:30 <GregorR-L> $ diff report_ais.txt report_ego.txt
06:00:22 <GregorR-L> Takes 2 seconds for egojoust to run defend8 against everything.
06:00:31 <GregorR-L> Takes ais' on the order of 10 minutes.
06:00:37 <myndzi> yeah, i think it's not very hard to in-place interpret the weirdass ({})%N syntax
06:00:57 <myndzi> a couple counters is all
06:02:22 <myndzi> and since the brackets inside it should(?) match, there's not really any crazy stuff you have to do either as far as finding where to jump to
06:03:20 <myndzi> it's just that if you hit a [ at a data point that is 0
06:03:36 <myndzi> with a matching pair on the other side of the {}
06:03:48 <myndzi> you stop counting the whole N off, and count off what you've reached
06:04:08 <myndzi> say the first [ is nonzero but the 2nd isn't
06:04:20 <myndzi> first time you hit { and increase a counter
06:04:24 <myndzi> then you start at a again
06:04:39 <myndzi> you haven't done the full 3, but now you don't need to do any more
06:04:44 <myndzi> you jump to e, then dec the counter
06:05:02 <myndzi> if ] is nonzero, you're back to the front side though, and once again you increase the counter
06:05:16 <myndzi> (but keep track of the %N counter separately -- only do this three times)
06:05:31 <myndzi> actually, that may be a bit off
06:05:50 <myndzi> yeah, it is a little off
06:05:54 <myndzi> you don't keep track of %N separately
06:05:58 <myndzi> just inc a loop counter
06:06:02 <myndzi> and if the loop counter is equal to N
06:06:06 <myndzi> then when you hit { you proceed on to c
06:06:16 <myndzi> that's simpler than it seemed
06:06:30 <myndzi> and it sounds correct to my mind, am i making any sense?
06:06:41 <myndzi> maybe i should script it up in MIRC on WINDOWS! :)
06:08:23 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
06:09:53 <GregorR-L> (About two seconds, due to defend8)
06:10:23 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:13:32 <myndzi> clarification: loop as normal; if you hit {, increase loop counter and go back to (; if loop counter = N, instead proceed on; if you hit ), decrease loop counter, go back to }; if you hit ) and loop counter is 0, proceed
06:13:52 <myndzi> when i say 'loop as normal', i am referring to [] shunting you back and forth, potentially spanning {}
06:14:19 <myndzi> don't increase loop counter if it == N and you hit {
06:14:32 <myndzi> that should allow evaluation without expansion
06:15:08 <myndzi> ought to save you potential memory problems with (ab)use of loops
06:18:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:28:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:28:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
06:32:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:41:53 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
06:45:19 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
06:46:11 <GregorR-L> So, now that I've improved !bfjoust, nobody uses it :P
06:47:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
06:47:44 <zzo38> I have some new ideas for BF Joust
06:48:06 <zzo38> including betting, input, cards, and more.
06:48:42 <GregorR-L> If you have an entirely new language in mind, write an interpreter that returns 0, 1 or 2 for a tie, left program winning or right program winning, respectively, and I'll add it to EgoBot.
06:49:58 <zzo38> It can't work because my new BF Joust rules require some interactivity after the programs have been sent in to the computer, and there can (and should) be multiple games against the same oppoent per each match
06:51:10 -!- Patashu has joined.
06:51:28 <zzo38> I can implement my new BF Joust by myself. You can play multiple matches against different opponents but you have to use one program throughout the tournament.
06:51:56 <zzo38> I was thinking of no-limit hold'em style betting
06:52:41 <zzo38> The match could consist of playing until one player runs out of chips, then you proceed to the next opponent. The ante can increase after each win/loss is determined, and starts at zero at the beginning of each match.
06:53:35 <myndzi> i was under the impression that the point of bf joust was to write programs
06:54:05 <myndzi> GregorR-L: i kinda want to write an interpreter now too, except i don't have any useful languages to do it in (as far as sending you the result goes) ;)
06:54:17 <zzo38> Well, this idea I make is a new kind of BF Joust. After you write a program you have to win a betting tournament with it. (You can write a new program after the tournament if you want to)
06:54:24 <myndzi> i've got a firm grasp in my head of how to do an expansionless interpreter now :)
06:54:44 <myndzi> GregorR-L: do you take mircscript? :P
06:54:46 <GregorR-L> For the moment, egojoust is fast enough.
06:54:51 <myndzi> maybe i should learn c eh
06:54:56 <myndzi> yeah, it's fast, but it could run into memory problems
06:54:57 <GregorR-L> myndzi: I would recommend Pythong.
06:55:04 <myndzi> if someone is an asshole or comes up with some retarded idea
06:55:28 <Patashu> what are pythong's language features?
06:55:30 <myndzi> i might try perl, i started to learn that once
06:55:38 <zzo38> The deck of cards can change between tournaments, but the deck of cards is known way in advance before you have to write the program.
06:56:11 <myndzi> zzo38: wait .. what? what does a deck of cards have to do with brainfuck
06:56:15 <zzo38> Perl is OK, if you like it. And I like Forth programming.
06:56:17 <myndzi> unless you're trying to fuck my brain right now
06:56:49 <zzo38> The deck of cards consists of a low number of cards (if there are too many, it becomes too hard to guess your opponent's cards) and are used during the betting process.
06:56:52 <GregorR-L> Patashu: I replaced the bfjoust interpreter in EgoBot, egojoust is ultrafasssssst.
06:57:17 <myndzi> thank goodness no more waiting for that damned defend8
06:57:40 <GregorR-L> Though I didn't remove it because it's doing well.
06:57:52 <myndzi> what's the url to the dir again?
06:57:59 <Patashu> I love how lazy counters defends
06:58:01 <myndzi> is creep still winning?
06:58:37 <Patashu> hmm, I was going to try and tweak lazy, so...
06:58:38 <myndzi> when no further programs have been submitted o_O
06:58:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>>>((-.)*128>)*21
06:58:46 <myndzi> oh right, private submissions still
06:58:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 42.0
06:59:10 <zzo38> One of my rules is that , takes input from opponent's . command, unless there isn't any in which case the input is random
06:59:17 <myndzi> yeah, this scoring system is wack
06:59:37 <myndzi> 4 losses vs 4 losses but 2 places difference :\
06:59:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>+>->((-.)*128>)*21
06:59:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 65.4
06:59:49 <GregorR-L> Hrm, the score here didn't correspond to the score from report.txt ...
07:00:04 <myndzi> it spits the old score most of the time
07:00:07 <zzo38> You might consider my rules a bit insane, but I think that's OK
07:00:08 <myndzi> except, i think, with new submissions
07:00:20 <myndzi> zzo38: i don't understand a game in anything you've said so far
07:00:29 <GregorR-L> Also, the scoring system is nice :P
07:00:30 <myndzi> GregorR-L: didn't know you were working on it :)
07:01:12 <myndzi> anyway, bedtime for me
07:01:19 <myndzi> i'll see if i can take the code you shared earlier and play with it tomorrow
07:01:27 <myndzi> ..wait, where's my c compiler!? (just kidding! ;)
07:01:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21
07:01:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3
07:01:44 <zzo38> My thing is basically like BF Joust but with interactive play. You still have to write the program before the entire tournament and most of the normal rules are followed.
07:01:48 <GregorR-L> myndzi: Use the code in the egobot hg
07:01:49 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
07:01:55 <Patashu> I've topped the hill in like five minutes
07:01:57 <zzo38> Also see [[Talk:BF_Joust]] for some of the ideas I wrote on the wiki
07:02:00 <myndzi> zzo38: so far you've said something weird about cards and swapping input
07:02:04 <myndzi> but you haven't said anything about how to win
07:02:32 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*64>)*21
07:02:33 <zzo38> And the amount you bet can affect subsequent input from input commands.
07:02:36 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 0.0
07:02:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21
07:02:45 <myndzi> Patashu: congrats, but don't let it go to your head ;)
07:02:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3
07:02:56 <zzo38> You win either by the normal BF Joust way of winning, or if one player folds the other player wins.
07:03:27 <myndzi> what happens if you increment a card+?
07:03:37 <GregorR-L> You're claiming (bluffing?) that your program is superawesome.
07:03:44 <GregorR-L> And the other person folds, rather than losing points.
07:04:03 <zzo38> A special set of cards for slightly affecting things in the game. You can bet only after several cycles have passed so you can't use cards on every cycle either.
07:04:23 <zzo38> You can't increment a card.
07:04:36 <GregorR-L> OK, I sort of understand, it's not the worst idea I've ever heard, but I'd like to see the implementation first :P
07:04:38 <myndzi> now you've tied the pieces together a little
07:04:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*20(-)*256(+)*256
07:05:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 65.4
07:05:22 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21
07:05:23 <myndzi> thing is, there's 384000 cycles
07:05:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 75.3
07:05:34 <myndzi> and some games could be over quickly or could take a long time
07:05:45 <GregorR-L> myndzi: Actually, 100000 in ais' and mine.
07:05:46 <myndzi> when do you "bet" and when do you "play"? how do you manage how many cycles between these actions?
07:05:54 <myndzi> GregorR-L: good to know
07:06:00 <Patashu> what would the worst case be then?
07:06:05 <Patashu> how hard can you make a program on the interpreter?
07:06:21 <myndzi> currently? use a lot of ({}) expansions until it breaks
07:06:36 <zzo38> myndzi: I haven't worked out all the details yet. But I will work them out (and take suggestions into consideration also).
07:06:36 <myndzi> i think he has a limited size buffer, but i don't have the code up now
07:06:54 <myndzi> it expands ({}) into a fixed buffer space
07:07:00 <GregorR-L> The buffer is "limited" to several hundred megs :P
07:07:02 <myndzi> so using a big number should be sufficient to reach the limit
07:07:14 <myndzi> i wasn't sure .. i saw a reference to "somenumber" earlier
07:07:18 <myndzi> and thought it might be an arbitrary limit
07:07:30 <myndzi> so then if you nest some expansions you could probably take up an exponential amount of ram (and time)
07:07:31 <GregorR-L> myndzi: No, I was simplifying to give an example on #esoteric.
07:07:47 <myndzi> but the presence of the number there, i wasn't sure if it was a constant or not
07:07:53 <GregorR-L> I'm using my sweet buffer.h buffers.
07:08:06 <zzo38> Also whether a program is doing better than the opponent can change at times (based on any random factors that might occur) so you have to change your bet too, like in poker. But in general, one program beats another, but you also have to know how to bet with the program you wrote and use cards on it effectively.
07:08:26 <myndzi> the ability to modify the playing field with cards is very tricky
07:08:38 <myndzi> it could be completely overpowered (like choosing when to 'unstick' a loop such as []
07:08:56 <myndzi> and i'm not so certain it is really knowable which program is doing better until one wins
07:09:02 <zzo38> Yes, but cards are also few and not used often. You know all the cards that exist before you even write the program and enter the tournament!
07:09:14 <myndzi> i'm just pointing out things to consider
07:09:19 <myndzi> primarily, things that might make it not work
07:09:27 <myndzi> since that's how i seem to think about things :P
07:09:50 <myndzi> also, if you are somehow giving "status updates", consider how you will present that information
07:10:35 <myndzi> arg i was going to bed
07:10:37 <zzo38> It is not completely overpowered, because the number of cards you get is limited and random (and you know that if you have a card, the opponent can't have it), and you also play multiple runs per match, so depending on the bet amounts it could be replayed over and over again
07:10:41 * myndzi clicks off the monitor
07:11:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter (+)*10000(-)*10000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
07:11:03 <myndzi> i guess overpowered was poor word choice
07:11:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 60.5
07:11:26 <myndzi> i meant to say that it seems difficult to strike an oppropriate balance
07:11:33 <myndzi> the things you can affect in the game are either trivial or drastic
07:11:54 <myndzi> appropriate* (heh, dvorak typos)
07:12:24 <myndzi> this is directly related to the ambiguity of how "good" a program is currently doing
07:12:44 <zzo38> They can be trivial or drastic depending on circumstances and on the cards. And also on the program you have written before the tournament (you know what cards exist before the tournament, so you can use that as a basis to write your program if you want to)
07:13:09 <myndzi> no, i mean what you want from the card is something between trivial and drastic... and i don't see any cards you can design that way
07:13:20 <Patashu> on the turn that my opponent makes that cell 0
07:13:23 <myndzi> incrementing or decrementing the data in a cell does little
07:13:25 <Patashu> how many turns later will I execute another command?
07:13:37 <myndzi> changing the pointer can either do pretty much nothing or drastically affect the outcome
07:13:48 <zzo38> And they can be both trivial and drastic. Cards can be adjusted between tournaments by the tournament organizers
07:14:00 <Patashu> so if I did >[]< I'd get to my flag one turn later than the enemy
07:14:01 <myndzi> i think you are missing my point
07:14:11 <myndzi> but it wouldn't really help you much
07:14:21 <myndzi> assuming the enemy is running a zeroing loop
07:14:36 <Patashu> parity is important if I want to land them on exactly zero and trick them into going further isn't it?
07:14:39 <myndzi> zzo38: trivial cards kinda make the point of the cards not useful, and so do drastic cards
07:15:05 <myndzi> because it takes the game away from the code (of course, if that's what you want, sure.. i guess.. but then it's a card game)
07:15:18 <myndzi> but you can't really do that
07:15:29 <myndzi> this is what my timing comment on the wiki was about
07:15:33 <zzo38> It doesn't take the game away from the code, the code is still an important part. But it isn't everything.
07:15:37 <myndzi> say you are on your flag, and you know their pointer is on your flag
07:15:49 <myndzi> zzo38: design some cards that are neither useless nor overpowered and then say that
07:15:52 <Patashu> I'll assume they're using a [+] or [-] immediately say
07:16:02 <myndzi> Patashu: sure, but if you want them to run past you, the pointer has to hit 0
07:16:07 <Patashu> so I want to land them on exactly 0. if I'm on the wrong parity it'll go 1, -1
07:16:12 <myndzi> however, you can't wait until it's 0 and then inc or dec it
07:16:24 <myndzi> because it'll take 2 cycles
07:16:25 <Patashu> because it might be the wrong direction
07:16:45 <myndzi> there is too much potential variance to try and do it based on timing
07:16:48 <myndzi> it'd be trivial to defeat
07:16:56 <zzo38> The information given at betting time could consist of: Distance between your flag and your pointer; distance between your flag and opponent's pointer; value at your pointer; next command to be executed in your program; next command to be executed in opponent's program. (You only know the next command, not the position of the command)
07:17:02 <myndzi> (for example, if you assume they are using something like [-] and time it so that falls through,
07:17:08 <Patashu> they could add a . before it
07:17:13 <myndzi> code with something like -. will break that)
07:17:22 <myndzi> or -- or any number of things
07:17:26 <Patashu> hmm. well, I'll think on it more then
07:17:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
07:17:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 75.9
07:17:35 <zzo38> And the number of cycles between bets could be equal to the number of cells on the tape (the number of cells is reset to randomly before each match).
07:17:55 <myndzi> zzo38: doesn't say anything about cards
07:18:36 <myndzi> those are good bits of information for betting purposes (with knowledge of the code)
07:18:38 <zzo38> Well, of course you also know what cards you hold and the number of cards the opponent holds, and also the number of chips held by each player and in the pot
07:18:48 <myndzi> 'course with knowledge of the code, distance often doesn't seem that it will matter
07:19:04 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
07:19:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 75.9
07:19:13 <myndzi> zzo38: again, design a useful card that doesn't make it either a card game or make cards useless
07:19:33 <zzo38> You cannot look at the opponent's program however but you can learn about it after a few runs you have seen its behaviour so you know it better than at the start of the match
07:20:02 <myndzi> and the programs can't change, which means the results often won't change
07:20:12 <myndzi> PIKACHU, I CHOOSE YOU! :)
07:20:26 <zzo38> Well, some cards can adjust the programs slightly.
07:20:36 <zzo38> Like by inserting commands and things
07:21:04 <myndzi> it'd be almost impossible to make that make a "small" change to a program
07:21:25 <myndzi> consider "[]" .. insert anything into that and it will drastically and immediately change your program
07:21:40 <Patashu> random mutation severly breaks programs
07:21:44 <Patashu> in any language that isn't DNA :)
07:21:58 <zzo38> Of course you are restricted to how and where you can adjust the program with a particular card, and whose program you adjust
07:22:13 <myndzi> you can't blacklist all "good combos"
07:22:22 <Patashu> no, nevermind - I was going to suggest an esolang that handled random mutation well, but it would just be incredibly redundant then
07:22:30 <myndzi> so "where" can't be dependent on the contents of the code
07:22:38 <zzo38> And the program would reset to its original state before each run of the program
07:23:06 <myndzi> whatever, i want to sleep not argue, i honestly wish you luck but i won't hold my breath just yet :P
07:23:29 <zzo38> The command could be inserted immediately before the command to execute next (of course you don't have much control over when you have a chance to play a card and make bets)
07:23:31 <myndzi> it is an intriguing idea, but i think what you want is approaching pokemon with code
07:23:44 <myndzi> which could be interesting, but it is not likely to end up anything like BF joust
07:23:44 <Patashu> it could be interesting to have a 'race' to crack the opponent's program before they crack yours. before each match you could insert an extra instruction at an index into your opponent's program (you don't know what), and they get to insert one into yours. fight, see who wins, repeat with another extra instruction
07:23:52 <Patashu> and make it say best after 7
07:24:08 <Asztal> I made a befunge variant with agents that roamed about, randomly mutating the code... it wasn't as interesting as I thought :(
07:24:24 <Patashu> you don't get enough information and you could make severely bloated programs that you can't alter the behaviour of readily
07:24:26 <zzo38> It isn't intended to be pokemon. (For pokemon games I have PocketMonsterIRC)
07:24:48 <myndzi> obviously our thought processes are not compatible :P
07:24:59 <myndzi> i don't mean pokemon as in little pets that have special powers
07:25:07 <Patashu> Asztal: It might be more interesting if you had a program that needed to approximate certain tasks, rather than do something specifically every single time
07:25:22 <Patashu> Like what a bfjoust program does, as opposed to the programs a bank uses
07:25:27 <zzo38> Ya, my thought processes are Forth
07:25:29 <myndzi> i mean two player versus mode with periodic decisions being made to affect the outcome
07:25:41 <myndzi> with, probably, some mechanism for "swapping out" your current warrior
07:25:50 <myndzi> (any modifications made to it can be made to have this effect)
07:26:45 <zzo38> myndzi: Your ideas are also good ideas! (But it is a separate thing from mine)
07:27:50 <zzo38> I do like your ideas too. But I also like my ideas too, as two separate kind of games!
07:28:28 <myndzi> i'm not proposing ideas
07:28:51 <myndzi> i'm trying to fit what you are telling me into some sort of balanced and useful context and pokemon is about the best i can arrive at
07:29:13 <GregorR-L> BF Poker: Every round, everybody is dealt, say, 15 characters. They trade and bet as in poker, then they're all ran as a hill and the pot is divided up by score.
07:29:26 <myndzi> that is to say, i can't think of any way that your use of "cards", aside from being used in those kinds of ways, could possibly be useful and also balanced
07:29:36 <Patashu> having to construct programs in BF or a BF-like languages from a limited pool sounds interesting
07:29:46 <myndzi> now that is intriguing
07:30:08 <Patashu> you'd need to make sure (whatever the goal is) is always accomplishable though
07:30:19 <myndzi> maybe i used not quite the right term
07:30:26 <zzo38> All these ideas are good ideas for variants of games similar to BF Joust.
07:30:38 <Patashu> if it was BFJoust without any alterations, for instance, you'd need at least 29 >s
07:30:44 <myndzi> in collectible card games and stuff there is a variation of play where you are given a starter and some booster packs and you have to make do with what you get
07:30:45 <Patashu> so some other goal would be good
07:30:59 <GregorR-L> Patashu: I was assuming something like ais' BF Joust, with ()s.
07:31:21 <myndzi> do you get parens in matched pairs? ;)
07:31:26 <myndzi> what about decimal digits? hehe
07:31:37 <myndzi> DAMMIT i got three ()'s but no *!
07:31:42 <GregorR-L> myndzi: If you're lucky. Idonno, you can use any number? Maybe too powerful.
07:31:55 <myndzi> i think you'd have to deal out ALL characters
07:32:08 <myndzi> bf may not be suitable for this either
07:32:16 <myndzi> but it's amusing to consider
07:32:20 <Patashu> you could generalize it to any tokenized language
07:32:23 <myndzi> you might do statistical analysis on the current warriors
07:32:28 <myndzi> see how widely they vary
07:32:39 <Patashu> you could do it in say, golfscript
07:32:44 <Patashu> and the challenge is 'do something the judges find neat'
07:33:05 <Patashu> esolang based around using as few characters as possible to do things
07:33:19 <zzo38> (Or flogscript if that's the variant of golfscript you happen to prefer)
07:33:43 <Patashu> anything that's terse enough for arbitrary or near arbitrary token combinations to make sense
07:34:13 <myndzi> i think in this case (bf joust), the goal is too specific
07:34:34 <myndzi> that has a lot mor epotential i think
07:34:41 <myndzi> for the random character thing i mean
07:35:22 <myndzi> i don't know how you could give enough to do something with but not enough to leave it totally open ended
07:35:32 <zzo38> I like FlogScript because a program to delete duplicate lines of input is three characters long
07:35:51 <GregorR-L> I think 30 characters is probably about right.
07:35:52 <zzo38> To delete the first line of input, also three character long.
07:36:20 <myndzi> GregorR-L: then it comes down to, what can be written in 30 characters? a certain set of programs
07:36:20 <zzo38> And also three characters long program to reverse the order of the lines input
07:36:39 <myndzi> which one you right will be pretty much chosen by what you get, unless they use the same sort of characters
07:36:43 <GregorR-L> myndzi: But you're given the 30 characters, and plenty of them aren't useful. It's a mix of what can be done, and what you're given.
07:36:48 <zzo38> The "judge Janken" in FlogScript is exactly 30 characters long.
07:37:05 <GregorR-L> I think making the characters have different probabilities is important too.
07:37:15 <Patashu> and force ()s etc to be matched
07:37:32 <Patashu> so instead of getting a ( and ) you get a ()
07:37:39 <GregorR-L> Yeah, and make it appropriately rare.
07:37:46 <myndzi> it might be that brainfuck requires so many characters to get certain things done that..
07:38:08 <myndzi> if you want those things doable at all, you necessarily relinquish restrictions on certain other things
07:38:17 <myndzi> (that take much less to get done)
07:38:22 <Patashu> or just use a higher-level character-based language?
07:39:17 <myndzi> so, you can't have the takes-many-characters things possible, otherwise the class of takes-few-characters things is pretty much open ended
07:39:25 <myndzi> requiring you to restrict it to that class of takes-few-characters things
07:39:31 <myndzi> and at that point, randomness takes a huge toll too
07:39:51 <Patashu> so we have this Awesome Idea
07:39:54 <myndzi> i always sound like i'm being negative
07:39:58 <Patashu> it's so awesome but we don't know how to do it
07:40:04 <zzo38> Try FlogScript if you want to achieve things in only a few characters
07:40:20 <Patashu> flogscript: it slices, it dices, it cuts and cubes
07:40:21 <myndzi> ^ that may be a suitable answer, but i don't know anything about what he's talking about
07:41:32 <zzo38> O. See the wiki page about [[FlogScript]] for some examples. I have done the anarchy golf challenges by myself and posted the codes on the wiki (because anarchy golf doesn't have FlogScript)
07:41:34 <myndzi> i suspect that perhaps, given the right goal, brainfuck and a small set of random characters might be surprisingly flexible
07:41:50 <myndzi> but i'm thinking like ~10 characters or something, otherwise you start to get lots of duplicates that can be used for something useful
07:41:54 <myndzi> what would the goal be? :\
07:42:05 <zzo38> myndzi: Probably with the right goal that might be correct. But it tells to wait see what it is.
07:42:47 <myndzi> but i got bogged down wondering if a brainfuck quine is even possible
07:43:06 <zzo38> A brainfuck quine is possible. Not in only ten characters though!
07:43:09 <Patashu> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/quine/ ?
07:43:30 <myndzi> i'm sure it is, after all it's turing-complete rite?
07:43:40 <myndzi> i was just trying to think "how?!"
07:44:12 <Patashu> anything you can do in a higher level language you can do in brainfuck as well
07:44:18 <Patashu> just in a muuuch lengthier way
07:44:39 <zzo38> And there are compilers into brainfuck, such as [[BrainClub]]
07:44:48 <myndzi> ah! here's the idea i was thinking of
07:44:57 <myndzi> i'm a little slow 'cause i'm tired now
07:45:03 <myndzi> but you ever see those math puzzles that are like
07:45:21 <myndzi> "using the numbers 2 3 4 5 and 6, with any combination of operators, give an expression that evaluates to 23"?
07:45:40 <myndzi> supply a random collection of +s, -s, <s, and >s
07:45:53 <myndzi> allow the user to place [] (or () etc maybe even) wherever they want
07:45:59 <myndzi> but require them to use all the +s and -s etc
07:46:12 <myndzi> (of course, there's always the trivial case of putting trash at the end, so what can be done about that?)
07:46:46 <Patashu> require the last command to be a . ?
07:47:04 <myndzi> but there's no guarantee the program ever reaches that point
07:47:09 <myndzi> perhaps require the program to terminate
07:47:21 <myndzi> for example, bf joust could be modified thusly:
07:47:27 <myndzi> no "lose if you run off the tape" rule
07:47:37 <myndzi> you must set their flag to 0 and terminate
07:47:48 <GregorR-L> I think you can provide a lot of characters if you make the probabilities right.
07:48:03 <GregorR-L> 30, but in all likelihood 20 of them will be +'s and -'s.
07:48:03 <myndzi> so the task then becomes
07:48:14 <myndzi> to arrange the +-<> set to accomplish your task
07:48:20 <myndzi> by placement of those and []
07:48:43 <myndzi> i don't think it'd work to force them to use a pre-supplied string of +-<> :P
07:48:48 <zzo38> Another idea: You have a brainfuck program without brackets, the puzzle is that you must then add the brackets to make a certain output.
07:48:48 <myndzi> but maybe you supply a random string of +-
07:48:57 <myndzi> and the person has to use them to accomplish the goal
07:49:38 <myndzi> so like +-++++-------++----++-+---++++, but you add <> [] wherever you want
07:49:40 <zzo38> Of course this puzzle I made is only a one player game, you aren't competing against anyone
07:49:58 <myndzi> and maybe use a restricted value set, instead of 256 values, 16
07:50:24 <myndzi> i don't know if that's even solvable quite yet but i think with enough <>s it probably is
07:51:12 <myndzi> the placing-brackets problem reminds me of some puzzle but i can't put my finger on it
07:51:17 -!- zzo38 has quit ("bed (will read logs)").
07:51:27 <myndzi> he's got the right idea, lol
07:51:42 <myndzi> i don't think i've /quit properly in years
07:52:18 <GregorR-L> So have we approached an actual game here? :P
07:52:42 <Patashu> we've got a lot of ideas going
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08:20:56 <GregorR-L> The more I think about it, the less specific I get.
08:26:50 <GregorR-L> Now I'm thinking something like FYB without the loops, you insert the loops.
08:26:56 <GregorR-L> But I'd like to have a poker-esque trade phase.
08:26:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:27:56 <GregorR-L> (And I can't think of how to do that with the given-program add-brackets idea)
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08:29:46 <GregorR-L> Also, FYB requires you do some fairly specific things to place a bomb, and that's counterproductive.
08:36:57 <GregorR-L> The goal really buggers up everything :P
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08:45:41 <GregorR-L> Here's a thought: You're given some numbers and operators, and you have to form them into a RPN "program". The goal is to have the most prime factors.
08:46:22 <Patashu> or some other arbitrary criteria?
08:46:36 <GregorR-L> Sure, that's an example crieteria.
08:47:05 <GregorR-L> That would be fekking difficult :)
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08:48:19 <Patashu> just have mathematica open while you work
08:48:52 <GregorR-L> Anyway, good basic idea? Maybe add functions for giggles?
08:49:09 <Patashu> maybe one operator is always a randomly generated functino
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08:54:55 <lereah_> How do I put on a little hat on a character in LaTeX?
08:56:02 <oerjan> also there was \widehat{} for putting it on something huge :)
08:56:21 <oerjan> (i'm more sure of the latter than the former)
08:58:16 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> My execution trace is >+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[---[+]]>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>>>>[>[>[---[+]+++++++++>--------->+++++++++>--------->>
08:58:35 <oerjan> that looks wrong for (>(+{>}-)%9)*2(>)*5([---[+]]>)*21
08:58:37 <lereah_> But I just need a regular sized hat
08:58:57 <oerjan> lereah_: yeah \widehat expands as needed i think
08:59:55 <oerjan> GregorR-L: btw i was thinking you could do ()* and ({})* without expansion by keeping a counter for each () pair (which may be allocated globally or in a stack manner)
09:00:29 <GregorR-L> RPokerN idea: Every player has chips, they start with 15. They can deal themselves into a round, and are given 15 numbers or operators. The chances are: 1/2 number, 1/2 operator. Of numbers, the probability is 15% 1, (1-15%)*15% 2, etc etc up to maybe 16. The operators are *, +, - and /. The probabilities are 36% /, 27% +, 27% -, 10% *.
09:00:31 <oerjan> basically ( sets the counter initially, { decrements and jumps back unless zero, etc.
09:01:03 <GregorR-L> It costs 1 chip to be dealt in. At this point players are given an opportunity to ante up or fold, as in poker.
09:01:26 <oerjan> } does nothing, ) increments and jumps back to } unless equal to target value
09:01:45 <GregorR-L> Once everybody has seen the bet and not raised, the programs are won and the pot is divided by who did the "best".
09:01:58 <oerjan> and with this, [] works automatically
09:02:28 <oerjan> (for pure (), ) decrements instead of incrementing)
09:02:30 <Patashu> what if you have [] spread across different kinds of (){}s?
09:03:03 <oerjan> and it should still be fast in C
09:03:34 <Patashu> btw gregorR-L, why not determine the distribution of number tokens using Benford's law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law
09:03:46 <Patashu> I guess it doesn't particularly matter though
09:03:59 <GregorR-L> I was thinking e.g. '*' is too useful for highest-primes.
09:04:25 <Patashu> duplicate all your prime factors
09:06:21 <Patashu> would be to be given a set of numbers and usable operators
09:06:28 <Patashu> and to make it equal a number given upfront
09:06:31 <Patashu> first person to answer wins
09:08:07 <oerjan> GregorR-L: of course i now find myndzi already said that, as well
09:10:28 <oerjan> GregorR-L: well, we have increments and decrements reversed :D
09:10:59 <oerjan> but that's not important, you don't get to check only for 0 in either option
09:12:17 <Patashu> every single program on the hill that isn't mine is on exactly -1 overall
09:12:27 <Patashu> I think it's because the hill is evenly split between two types of program
09:12:34 <Patashu> defends and...non-defends :P
09:13:29 <Patashu> defend6 and defend6aparody even get exactly the same matchups
09:15:59 <oerjan> Patashu: well ais523 claims it's paper/rock/scissors so someone should add some of whatever is the third type
09:16:50 <oerjan> unless this has happened because someone found something to break the p/r/s balance
09:17:16 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust fooled_again [>[-(.)*64]-]
09:17:16 <Patashu> how well a program does on the hill is determined by how many programs that counter it are present
09:17:20 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_fooled_again: 9.0
09:17:21 <Patashu> or rather how powerful the programs it kills are
09:18:06 <oerjan> i suppose if someone flooded it with ... attackers, is that it, then the fools could have been wiped out
09:18:15 <oerjan> and then the defenders remain at the top
09:18:33 <oerjan> (well, one defender, by what you said)
09:18:51 <Patashu> anything that can beat both lazy and waiter will soar right to the top
09:18:57 <oerjan> oh you said even split
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09:19:58 <oerjan> so, your program breaks the balance by beating two types?
09:20:02 <Patashu> the point system values programs that counter the most valued programs which is determined by countering the most valued programs...
09:20:23 <Patashu> value isn't constant, it's determined by the hill's makeup at that point in time
09:20:32 <Patashu> since programs aren't just better and worse, they also have matchups
09:20:49 <Patashu> if the hill never kicked members off, it would give a much better representation
09:20:53 <Patashu> with roughly equal programs of all kinds at all times
09:20:58 <oerjan> i had a crazy idea that maybe the hill could be divided into separate ecosystems...
09:21:09 <GregorR-L> I could up the limit if people'd like.
09:21:30 <oerjan> with only rare interaction, so that they could evolve into different balances
09:21:58 <Patashu> are there any disadvantages to having large hills
09:21:58 <AnMaster> (and I haven't yet checked what this discussion was about, bbl too)
09:22:04 <Patashu> besides the cost of running bigger matchups?
09:22:07 <GregorR-L> Patashu: Takes longer to run a new program.
09:22:14 <Patashu> and it's p. fast right now
09:22:58 <oerjan> or, you could have divisions
09:23:09 <oerjan> like with sports teams
09:23:41 <oerjan> a number of lower hills whose members compete to get on the top hill
09:24:09 <Patashu> if you have a program on top of the hill
09:24:19 <Patashu> you can weaken it by introducing something that counters it but nothing else
09:24:28 <Patashu> and it'll only be on the top as long as the first program remains
09:24:41 <Patashu> could you drag down a winner like that?
09:25:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >(+)*10>(-)*10>-->++(>)*5((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
09:25:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 64.0
09:25:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
09:25:48 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 14.5
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09:27:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_nop: 6.6
09:28:18 <Patashu> oh, it didn't tie anything
09:28:44 <GregorR-L> I'm ... not sure why its score is non-zero ...
09:28:51 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_really_nop: 8.3
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09:32:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust simple (>)*9([-]>)*20[[-][+]]
09:32:04 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_simple: 32.1
09:32:25 <Patashu> the formatting breaks for x.y scores
09:37:58 <GregorR-L> Heh, I added a bunch of impomatic's back, and now ehird_defend8 is at the top :P
09:38:17 <GregorR-L> lazy and waiter are still doing pretty well though.
09:38:30 <GregorR-L> I've been trying to think of a fixed point algo for score, but nothing comes to mind.
09:40:05 <Patashu> the bigger the hill is the more accurate it ought to be
09:40:14 <Patashu> there isn't really an objective metric of how good a program is
09:41:59 <GregorR-L> Yeah, and I like my score, it would just be tastier if it was a fixed point algo :P
09:42:57 <Patashu> (wins-losses)/number of characters in source
09:43:42 <Patashu> down with defend#s once and for all
09:45:31 <Patashu> but yeah if you want to prune your hill a different way you could give more points to fast wins/slow wins/short programs/number of loops executed?
09:45:59 <GregorR-L> There's all sorts of score possibilities.
09:58:02 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+]
09:58:06 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train: 32.7
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10:08:41 <Asztal> !bfjoust boring (++--+-++--)*100000
10:08:45 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_boring: 44.0
10:10:48 <Patashu> how is it that you can win without attacking your opponent's flag?
10:11:16 <Deewiant> The other program runs off the tape
10:11:28 <Asztal> yes, your train seems to do that
10:11:34 <Patashu> what is the win condition exactly?
10:11:40 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
10:12:29 <GregorR-L> Win conditions: 1) Your program parses and the other doesn't. 2) Your program doesn't run off the tape and the other does. 3) The other program's flag remains 0 for two turns.
10:12:56 <Patashu> killing yourself isn't noping forever, it's losing
10:13:02 <Patashu> so . is a stronger program than <
10:13:17 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_simpleton: 9.0
10:13:28 <Deewiant> !bfjoust boring-loop [++--+-++--]
10:13:31 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_boring-loop: 31.0
10:14:39 <Patashu> I have no permission to access report.txt
10:14:59 <Patashu> also it's not storing all the programs
10:15:19 <Deewiant> It was supposed to be the best 10
10:15:53 <GregorR-L> I accidentally wonked out that report.c X_X
10:16:03 <GregorR-L> This is what I get for making changes on the server instead of my local hg repo.
10:17:38 <GregorR-L> Sorry, you'll have to readd those.
10:17:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_simpleton: 11.5
10:18:06 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+]
10:18:10 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train: 34.6
10:18:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust boring-loop [++--+-++--]
10:18:15 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_boring-loop: 23.3
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10:20:03 <GregorR-L> The server's repo is in a bad state, gimme a minute to fix.
10:20:15 <Asztal> boring-loop has quite a defeatist attitude :)
10:21:09 <Deewiant> !bfjoust boring-loop2 >+[<++--+-++-->--]
10:21:27 <Deewiant> Well, that's a bit less defeatist
10:21:35 <Deewiant> Although not necessarily as effective :-P
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10:22:03 <Asztal> actually, I was thinking that it would just stop once someone got the flag to 0, but it should only do that 1 in 10 times
10:22:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust boring-loop2 >+[<++--+-++-->--]
10:22:16 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_boring-loop2: 19.8
10:22:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128)*29
10:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 8.9
10:22:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
10:22:48 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 44.2
10:22:50 <Deewiant> You'll be running off the end often
10:23:25 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++.+.-)*29
10:23:29 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2
10:23:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.++)*29
10:23:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4
10:23:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.+.-.-.+.+)*29
10:23:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4
10:24:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
10:24:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4
10:24:32 <Patashu> I mean can you really write off -anything-?
10:25:09 <Patashu> I think 20 is a good number for the hill btw
10:25:17 <Patashu> any larger and it gets harder to look at the grid and make sense of it
10:25:57 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 25.2
10:26:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>)*8(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
10:26:44 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 47.6
10:27:18 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>->+)*4(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
10:27:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 45.3
10:27:34 <Patashu> how can that do worse? weird
10:27:36 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 15.4
10:27:45 * GregorR-L keeps looking for a magic degenerate strategy :P
10:28:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>-->++)*4(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
10:28:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 52.8
10:28:08 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust jug_or_not [[(-)*10](+)*10]
10:28:11 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_jug_or_not: 22.9
10:28:29 <Deewiant> Patashu: The scores are a bit random due to the variation in tape length
10:28:50 <Asztal> does it do best of 5 or anything like that?
10:29:00 <GregorR-L> Actuall, egojoust is configured such that a run of any two programs will always produce the same result, as it "randomizes" based on their concatenated source code.
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10:29:26 <GregorR-L> I wanted the scores to be a bit more stable :P
10:29:29 <Patashu> system time not good enough for ya?
10:29:43 <Patashu> means that a trivial variation can make a match different though
10:29:55 <Patashu> and you'll be all like 'hah now I got it' when in reality it has nothing to do with bfjoust as written
10:29:58 <GregorR-L> A trivial variation, as opposed to running it three seconds later.
10:30:21 <GregorR-L> Plus, it's extremely unlikely to help you in ALL matches, it'll likely only help in one.
10:31:58 <GregorR-L> Plus, as ais said, the tape length really does rarely affect the outcome, it's more about weeding out degenerate strategies.
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10:33:17 <GregorR-L> I wish all this interest in BF Joust would give FYB a bit of attention :P
10:34:11 <GregorR-L> More complex, written four years earlier.
10:35:24 <GregorR-L> The last FYB program I wrote, logicex-2, remains undefeated.
10:36:21 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo echo_sh forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
10:36:44 <GregorR-L> All this reporting infrastructure was made for FYB, and ported to BF Joust.
10:38:55 <Patashu> Yo dawg we heard you like strings, so we put a string "Hello world!" in your program
10:39:35 <GregorR-L> They should all be on the esolangs wiki *shrugs*
10:40:21 <Patashu> 'yo dawg' no matches, 'yodawg' no matches
10:41:06 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo echo_sh google hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg
10:41:22 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
10:41:38 <EgoBot> Interpreter echo_sh deleted.
10:41:57 <GregorR-L> unlambda is the language that the userinterp is written in.
10:42:12 <GregorR-L> The interpreter itself should have been sent over DCC
10:42:27 <EgoBot> bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,]
10:42:38 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=2
10:43:03 <GregorR-L> !google was just a joke, mostly, since that's how I often respond to questions :P
10:43:04 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=was+just+a+joke,+mostly,+since+that's+how+I+often+respond+to+questions+:P
10:43:11 <Deewiant> Ah, but does it URL-encode properly?
10:43:14 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=%20
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10:45:24 <Asztal> hmm, maybe an interesting FYB program would, instead of placing bombs in the opponent's code, place lots of :s, *then* place a bomb
10:45:47 <Patashu> you have !fyb to test what you like
10:47:08 <Asztal> I do... I suspect my attempts will fail until I have a little more experience anyway
10:47:43 <GregorR-L> You can always /msg, go to #egobot or go to #fyb for more privacy.
10:49:19 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, why not rewrite that bf program to properly url encode :D
10:50:31 <Patashu> since they're on an arbitrary bijunction
10:50:37 <AnMaster> Patashu, I would use a "to-bf" compiler
10:50:59 <Patashu> that's not really writing bf is it :)
10:51:13 <GregorR-L> I used bf_txtgen to get the http://google.com/search?q= part :P
10:51:38 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, esotope-bfc optimises it quite well btw
10:52:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://pastebin.com/de087ecd
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10:54:01 <AnMaster> p[5] += 7; p[4] += ((6*p[5])+1); p[5] = 0; <-- seems bad. Wouldn't p[4] += ((6*(p[5]+7))+1); p[5] = 0; be better hm
10:54:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, it still does a fairly good job IMO
10:54:33 <GregorR-L> Absolutely, I'm just being an ass :P
10:56:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, ideally it should of course turn it into a "while(!feof(stdin)) { char c = getchar(); if (c == ' ') putchar('+'); else putchar(c); }
10:56:35 <AnMaster> but that would be as close to impossible as makes no difference
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11:01:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, current state of in-between: http://pastebin.com/m311cd601 (and yes I haven
11:01:22 <AnMaster> haven't had time to work on it for some days)
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11:36:50 * AnMaster wonders if it would be possible to write a bf compiler or interpreter in make
11:39:11 <Patashu> also, does anyone here also hang out in golf.shinh.org?
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12:13:34 <lereah_> I wonder, since the O's are considered for worst case scenarios
12:13:56 <lereah_> Are programs using random things considered O(infinity)?
12:14:30 <Patashu> anything that sometimes enters an infinite loop is O(infinity) yes
12:15:02 <Patashu> no one would seriously suggest an algorithm that sometimes loops forever though XD so you never see it written out like that
12:15:55 <lereah_> It's a program that generates a random energy, but the result is only accepted if it's under the max energy
12:16:00 <lereah_> Otherwise, it loops back on
12:16:21 <lereah_> For some reason, if I do more than 47 iterations of the experience, it starts taking forever
12:16:37 <Patashu> usually there's a function to generate a random number within a range
12:16:43 <Patashu> I know python, java, visual basic has one
12:16:56 <lereah_> They're not just random numbers
12:17:03 <lereah_> They're random numbers on a particular distribution
12:17:20 <lereah_> I can't use regular random functions
12:17:47 <Patashu> is it a self-similar distribution?
12:18:14 <lereah_> Most things look like themselves
12:18:25 <Patashu> it's when you can find copies of the whole within the whole
12:18:39 <Patashu> if you can zoom in on part of the distribution curve and it looks like the whole distribution curve that would be self similar
12:18:41 <Patashu> but I'm not sure if that's helpful
12:19:43 <lereah_> It's a gaussian distribution
12:20:14 <lereah_> Code is : http://pastebin.com/m5c424cd8
12:20:55 <lereah_> So far, it takes forever, but if you change exp=48 to something less than that, it takes under a minute
12:21:32 <lereah_> I can't even find out where it's stuck, though I can guess, because root is shitty with i/o
12:21:49 <lereah_> Pretty sure it's stuck on :
12:21:51 <lereah_> {Ep = f1->Gaus(0.5*TMath::Log(E/0.2),1);
12:21:52 <lereah_> Ep = (E0)*TMath::Exp(-Ep);}
12:22:00 <Patashu> why would you need a capped gaussian distribution
12:23:50 <lereah_> Wait, maybe my condition of 0 energy is too low
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12:24:04 <lereah_> And it found an energy really too low for him to generate easily
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12:25:25 <impomatic> Has the size of the BF Joust hill been increased? It looks like it now records previous reports too
12:25:43 <Patashu> and keeps a log of reports
12:28:06 <Patashu> I'm having surprising success with my attempts
12:28:34 <Patashu> rushpolarity, lazy and waiter have all topped the hill
12:29:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
12:29:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 18.5
12:30:04 <Patashu> nope it's not good as it is :)
12:37:56 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(---.)*9999])*21
12:38:00 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 66.0
12:38:43 <Patashu> sets up decoys. -9+9-9+9-9+9-9+9
12:38:57 <Patashu> one forward, +1, - until zero, plus plus minus minus
12:39:03 <Patashu> loop until it's zero: ---.
12:39:58 <Patashu> it's the attack itself that's important, let's see
12:40:28 <Patashu> what does once zero, ++-- then ---. repeat until zero do that's special
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12:41:08 <Patashu> if it's continually incerasing or decreasing it
12:41:11 <Patashu> ++ will beat -- and -- will beat ++
12:42:21 <Patashu> will only trigger if the pointer is there as well
12:42:58 <impomatic> I don't think the ++-- really helps, but the [(---.)*9999] is supposed to help against programs which modify their own flag.
12:43:10 <impomatic> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to help much.
12:43:46 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-])*21
12:43:49 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 60.9
12:44:01 <Patashu> what about doing -+--++---+++
12:44:48 <Patashu> if you detect the cell to be 0 in the loop, when you end it a modifier will make it 1 or -1
12:45:02 <Patashu> so you can't push it back onto 0 unless they change direction
12:45:15 <Patashu> so you'd have to trick them into hitting 0 on a wraparound?
12:45:40 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]+.[((-)*6.)*9999])*21
12:45:44 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 5.8
12:45:56 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]+.-[((-)*6.)*9999])*21
12:46:00 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 55.7
12:46:37 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(--.)*9999])*21
12:46:40 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 55.4
12:46:50 <impomatic> !bfjoust spyglass (>(-)*9>(+)*9)*4(>(+)*10[-]++--[(---.)*9999])*21
12:46:53 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_spyglass: 64.5
12:47:48 <Patashu> with defenders as only 1/5th of the hill now
12:47:56 <Patashu> the defender-smashers are dropping
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12:49:23 <Patashu> does the size of the decoys matter?
12:49:39 <Patashu> what kind of attack would smash decoys that are +1 OR -1 for instance
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12:50:45 <impomatic> +[-] gets through +1 -1 decoys. ++[-] for -1, -2, 1, 2 decoys. Etc
12:51:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:53:53 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.+.)*29
12:53:57 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4
12:54:12 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
12:54:15 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 48.6
12:54:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--.++)*29
12:54:58 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.8
12:55:08 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-+\)*29
12:55:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 46.3
12:55:26 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+)*29
12:55:29 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 42.4
12:55:50 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*126.--++)*29
12:55:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 20.6
12:55:58 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
12:56:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 48.6
12:56:03 <Patashu> back to this version I guess :)
12:58:35 <impomatic> !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*11)*4(>(+)*5)*5(>(+)*9[-][(+)*128(+.)*9999])*21
12:58:39 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_ignite: 54.8
13:00:26 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy (>(+)*10>(-)*10)*2>(-)*10(>(+)*10)*2>(-)*10>((-.)*128>)*21
13:00:29 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 39.1
13:01:03 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy +>((-.)*128>)*29
13:01:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 41.3
13:01:20 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>((-.)*128>)*21
13:01:23 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.2
13:02:53 <impomatic> !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*4)*6(>[(+)*9[-][(+)*384(.-)*9999(.+)*9999(..+)*9999(.++)*9999(.+++)*9999]])*21
13:02:57 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_ignite: 41.6
13:03:28 <impomatic> !bfjoust ignite (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*4)*6(>[(+)*9[-][(+)*384(.-)*9999(.+)*9999(..+)*9999]])*21
13:03:32 <EgoBot> Score for impomatic_ignite: 53.7
13:06:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+++++++++.)*1024(---------.)*1024)*2(++.)*512(--.)*512(+-)*1024(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:06:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 17.2
13:06:41 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:06:45 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9
13:06:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+.)*10000(-.)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:07:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 9.4
13:07:15 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+.)*5000(-.)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:07:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 14.1
13:07:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:07:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9
13:07:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+-)*10000(-+)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:07:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 25.2
13:08:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:08:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9
13:08:15 <Patashu> sorry if this is spammy, no one's talking about anything anyways
13:08:51 <oerjan> YOU ARE RUINING OUR MEDITATION
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13:10:21 <Patashu> I know why +.ing or -.ing your own flag is a bad idea now XD
13:10:51 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000.)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:10:55 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 38.0
13:11:06 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000.(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:11:10 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 39.3
13:11:20 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2.(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:11:24 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 39.3
13:11:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter .((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:11:38 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9
13:12:39 <Patashu> I don't seem to be coming up with anything particularly insightful
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13:16:07 <impomatic> Maybe you could work out what length decoys are best against the majority of programs on the hill. Should be easy by taking a quick look at their source.
13:16:19 <impomatic> Or alternatively which size decoy buster works best.
13:17:03 <Patashu> looking at programs huh? sneeaaakky
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13:27:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
13:27:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.8
13:28:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
13:28:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.1
13:30:12 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10[+[-]]+.--.++.-.+++.---[-][+[-][-[+][+]
13:30:15 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 52.1
13:30:24 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*11
13:30:27 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 57.1
13:30:43 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
13:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 58.4
13:31:14 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*9((-.)*128>)*21
13:31:18 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 44.0
13:32:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20--.++.[-][+]
13:32:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.7
13:32:22 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 44.0
13:32:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((+)*10000(-)*10000)*2(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(+--)*2000(-++)*2000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20..-..+..-.+.-+--++
13:32:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 34.1
13:32:54 <Patashu> why does that make it do worse rofl
13:34:09 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256
13:34:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2
13:34:21 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
13:34:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0
13:34:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29.(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256
13:34:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2
13:34:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
13:34:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0
13:35:02 <Patashu> and see which program adding stuff on at the end makes it lose against *rubs brow*
13:35:59 <Patashu> beats: rushpolarity all defends shadow viper shade
13:36:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29.(+)*128.[-][+][-[+][+[-](-)*128.(+)*128.(-+)*256
13:36:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 38.2
13:36:23 <Patashu> now it loses to shadow and spyglass
13:36:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
13:36:32 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 51.0
13:41:09 <Patashu> what on earth is shade doing. it is incredibly long
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13:44:05 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>-)*8>>+[[-][-]>+]
13:44:08 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 27.5
13:44:54 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*8>>+[[-][-]>+]
13:44:58 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 31.8
13:45:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-]>+)*20
13:45:15 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 22.4
13:45:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-]>)*20
13:45:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 35.7
13:45:40 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+[[-][-]>+]
13:45:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 34.6
13:45:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*2)*9([-][-]>)*20
13:45:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 26.0
13:45:54 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*3)*9([-][-]>)*20
13:45:57 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8
13:46:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*12)*9([-][-]>)*20
13:46:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8
13:46:13 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+]>)*20
13:46:17 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 35.7
13:46:42 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+([-][-][+]>)*8[[-][-]>+]
13:46:45 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 16.3
13:46:57 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][+][-]>)*20
13:47:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 29.1
13:47:10 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+]>)*20
13:47:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 38.8
13:47:14 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+([-][-]>)*8[[-][-]>+]
13:47:18 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 24.4
13:47:32 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([[-]]>)*20
13:47:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 27.7
13:47:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([+[-]]>)*20
13:47:40 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>([-][-]>)*8[[-][-]>+]
13:47:46 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 17.5
13:47:46 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 17.7
13:47:51 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>--)*4(>++)*4>>+[[-][-]>+]
13:47:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 31.0
13:47:57 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+][+]>)*20
13:48:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 37.1
13:48:39 <Patashu> electric trains are awesome
13:49:23 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([[-][-][+][+]]>)*20
13:49:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.0
13:49:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(-)*10)*9([-][-][+][+]>)*20
13:49:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 37.1
13:49:45 <Patashu> having to revert your entry is a pain
13:49:48 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+[[-][-]>+]
13:49:51 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 46.8
13:50:15 <Patashu> nah it makes underlying sense
13:50:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20
13:50:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 38.2
13:51:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:51:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 19.0
13:51:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+-)*1000.(-+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:51:44 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 8.2
13:51:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+)*1000.(-)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 10.8
13:51:57 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30
13:52:01 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6
13:52:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(+++-)*1000.(---+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:52:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 16.8
13:52:16 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000.(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:52:20 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 19.5
13:52:22 <Patashu> hmm why is this the optimum
13:52:23 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>])*30
13:52:27 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 10.0
13:52:32 <Patashu> don't make it do 40 >s in total ;)
13:52:38 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30
13:52:42 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6
13:52:44 <Patashu> it should end before doing a 30th >
13:52:48 <Patashu> because that's an instant win for your enemy
13:53:07 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*19
13:53:10 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 24.4
13:53:16 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*20
13:53:20 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 27.4
13:53:20 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*21
13:53:24 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 34.6
13:53:28 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*40
13:53:32 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 36.3
13:53:35 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30
13:53:39 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 52.6
13:54:01 <Deewiant> But still, more should be better :-P
13:54:10 <Patashu> keep in mind that > off the edge is instant loss
13:54:10 <Deewiant> It just hits nice numbers on the randomizer now
13:54:16 <Patashu> but noping for all eternity might be a draw
13:54:21 <Deewiant> Yeah, but there's no way of detecting that
13:54:28 <Patashu> not the way you set it up no
13:54:32 <Deewiant> It's a train, it doesn't stop ;-)
13:54:39 <Deewiant> It just keeps choo-chooing onward
13:54:43 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:54:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 25.3
13:54:59 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:55:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 19.5
13:55:03 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
13:55:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 29.5
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13:55:18 <Patashu> why does it work? who knows
13:55:27 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>->+)*5[[-]>-]
13:55:31 <EgoBot> Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 21.5
13:56:18 <Deewiant> Err, did you even change anything between those last two
13:56:47 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:56:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.9
13:57:07 <Asztal> !bfjoust boring (++--+->-<)*100000
13:57:12 <Taejo> Deewiant: when I last submitted the bot was broken
13:57:12 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_boring: 29.1
13:57:24 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*50000-(--+)*50000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.4
13:57:32 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*10[[-]>-]
13:57:36 <Deewiant> Taejo: Sorry, that was directed at Patashu
13:57:36 <EgoBot> Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 15.2
13:57:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:57:40 <Deewiant> Didn't notice you in between there :-P
13:57:44 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 47.1
13:58:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*50000(-+)*50000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:58:02 <Asztal> !bfjoust boring (++--+-)*100000
13:58:03 <Deewiant> Patashu: Stop lowering train2's score
13:58:05 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_boring: 28.0
13:58:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 42.4
13:58:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:58:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 43.5
13:58:19 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:58:22 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.2
13:58:28 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*18[[-]>-]
13:58:32 <EgoBot> Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 16.5
13:58:48 <Asztal> !bfjoust boring (-)*100000
13:58:53 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_boring: 36.0
13:59:13 <Asztal> I guess a lot of them use [-][-]
13:59:24 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity (>)*10[[-][-]>-]
13:59:28 <EgoBot> Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 19.8
13:59:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter (-)*100000((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:59:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 27.1
13:59:43 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter (-)*10000((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:59:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.7
13:59:48 <Taejo> !bfjoust taejo_simplexity >(+)*128(>)*9[[-][-]>-]
13:59:52 <EgoBot> Score for Taejo_taejo_simplexity: 14.0
13:59:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*20000(-+)*20000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
13:59:57 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 41.8
14:00:30 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth >(+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100([>[-]+])*100
14:00:35 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0
14:01:02 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth >(+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100>([>[-]+])*100
14:01:06 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 4.8
14:01:07 <Patashu> (+)*128 doesn't provide a particularly big advantage
14:01:14 <Patashu> it just needs to be bigger than the current largest decoy buster in play
14:01:26 <Patashu> (that is, some amount of +ing or -ing before a loop like [+])
14:01:36 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100>([>[-]+])*100
14:01:41 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0
14:01:53 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+])*100
14:01:58 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0
14:02:01 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth >(+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:02:05 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 0.0
14:02:14 <Deewiant> Sit around and then attack simply
14:02:17 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:02:20 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 42.5
14:02:40 <Patashu> if the program uses a [] like structure to attack cells
14:02:50 <Patashu> if it sees 0 for one cell then it assumes 'oh, I'm done here' and moves to the next
14:03:06 <Patashu> but if you're altering it your flag can hit 0 and then bounce back off 0 from your efforts
14:03:10 <Deewiant> Hmm, right, and if it sees 0 for the one next to the flag it kills the flag
14:03:11 <Patashu> while the unsuspecting program wanders off the tape's edge
14:03:17 <Deewiant> And if you alter the flag... yeah
14:03:25 <Deewiant> Still, I wouldn't expect it to be that much better :-P
14:03:42 <Patashu> it's one of the main strategies :)
14:03:53 <Patashu> of course it does much better than letting the enemy move onto your flag and attack it uncontested
14:03:55 -!- lereah_ has left (?).
14:03:56 -!- lereah_ has joined.
14:04:17 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]]+)*100
14:04:21 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0
14:04:23 <Asztal> !bfjoust retreat (>-)*9([.]-[.]<)*9(++--+-++--)*100000
14:04:28 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_retreat: 9.8
14:04:30 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]+)*100
14:04:33 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0
14:04:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >-[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
14:04:39 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]>)*100
14:04:39 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 22.8
14:04:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7
14:04:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000-(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
14:04:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 30.5
14:05:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
14:05:00 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+])*100
14:05:06 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 32.7
14:05:06 -!- myndzi has joined.
14:05:06 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 26.9
14:05:12 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8([>[-]+]>)*100
14:05:15 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7
14:05:34 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:05:38 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7
14:07:05 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth ((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:09 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.0
14:07:14 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*128((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:18 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 31.9
14:07:19 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*127((++-)*1024(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:24 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 32.7
14:07:32 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:36 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 45.4
14:07:38 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024+(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:42 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 29.6
14:07:50 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(-+-)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:07:54 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 29.6
14:07:59 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((+-+)*1024-(-+-)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:08:03 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 36.3
14:08:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((+-+)*1024-(-+-)*1024+)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:08:14 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.7
14:08:28 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
14:08:32 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 45.4
14:08:49 <Patashu> have you been looking at the other programs at all?
14:09:26 <Deewiant> Not beyond from what's been pasted here, mostly only what's been pasted here in the last 30 minutes :-P
14:09:40 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ read, learn, understand, know
14:10:44 <Patashu> why are they posted publicly then?
14:10:53 <Deewiant> As in, I consider it cheating :-P
14:11:08 <Deewiant> Or something like cheating but not quite cheating, there may or may not be a good word for it
14:27:17 -!- leonid_ has joined.
14:30:11 <Patashu> to submit, it's !bfjoust program
14:30:16 <Patashu> it'll append your name to the start automatically
14:30:25 <Patashu> if the name matches a program's name it gets overridden
14:30:43 <Patashu> so for instance one of mine is
14:30:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
14:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 47.9
14:31:33 <leonid_> how is the score evaluated?
14:31:43 <Patashu> it runs it against every other program on the hill
14:31:51 <Patashu> for each win, the more points that program had the more points you get
14:32:03 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
14:32:16 <EgoBot> Score for lereah__butt: 10.5
14:32:23 <Patashu> even if you do nothing interesting
14:32:24 <lereah_> I have no idea what's going on
14:32:28 <Patashu> you can still get a few wins if you make programs fall off the edge
14:32:36 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.5
14:32:47 <EgoBot> Score for lereah__butt: 9.2
14:32:51 <Patashu> here's a short program that has the capability of winning
14:33:11 <Patashu> the flag is between 9 and 29 cells away to start off
14:33:17 <Patashu> so we move 9 tiles forward
14:33:38 <Patashu> and to win we have to blank the flag at some point. we can do this either way since 128 is equidistant from 0 in either direction
14:33:48 <Patashu> but [-], if the other pointer is not altering it at the same time, will decrement it until it is 0 then continue
14:34:04 <Patashu> so if that was the enemy's flag and they aren't changing it at the same time you win if you zero out their flag first
14:34:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 3.0
14:34:53 <EgoBot> Score for lereah__butt: 11.5
14:34:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.8
14:35:13 <lereah_> I'm typing random things because I have no idea what's going on
14:35:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 10.5
14:35:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 19.5
14:35:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 19.5
14:35:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:35:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 51.0
14:35:57 <Patashu> we're not talking about anything else go ahead
14:36:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.5
14:36:08 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*8[[+][-]]+.--.++>(-)*8[[-][+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:36:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 44.9
14:36:14 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.0
14:36:22 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 19.5
14:36:26 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:36:30 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2
14:36:47 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*12[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*12[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:36:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 47.6
14:36:56 <Patashu> nope 10 is a sweat spot apparantly
14:37:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*11[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*11[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:37:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 49.9
14:37:09 <Patashu> oops I keep saying sweat spot
14:37:13 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
14:37:17 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 56.2
14:37:19 <Patashu> back to the version that works best
14:38:05 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((+)*10(>[-])*19(<)*19)*10
14:39:22 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
14:40:33 <Patashu> why on earth would that break it *raisez eyebrow*
14:40:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option <
14:41:09 <EgoBot> Daemon all_humans does not exist!
14:41:17 <Patashu> don't you go around killing things
14:41:23 <EgoBot> Daemon Patashu does not exist!
14:42:06 <EgoBot> daemon: !daemon <name> <language> <code>. Add a daemon to EgoBot. A daemon will run in the background, and accept a line of input every time !<name> <input> is run. Note that daemons are only allotted one line of output for each line of input.
14:42:45 <EgoBot> Running daemons: bottles butt
14:42:45 <EgoBot> Daemon Patashu running.
14:42:51 <EgoBot> Daemon Patashu killed.
14:45:43 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ < programs currently on the hill
14:46:18 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23677: line 1: kill: (22653) - Operation not permitted
14:47:50 <EgoBot> Use: !fyb <program name> <program>
14:47:53 <Patashu> let's play fyb while we wait
14:48:39 <Patashu> it's like that but brainfuckier
14:49:24 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/fyb/ and readme
14:50:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_suicide_is_your_only_option: 2.8
14:50:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 26.6
14:50:43 <Patashu> I queried him to let him know
14:50:57 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((+)*10(>[-])*10(<)*10)*2
14:51:35 <Patashu> it might be a bug with < maybe
14:53:05 <Patashu> you are hereby banned from using < until you know better
14:53:43 <Patashu> have you ever looked at brainfuck code before?
14:53:55 <leonid_> i often write simple bf codes
14:53:58 <Patashu> also, tidbit: the ] check is considered a cycle
14:54:08 <Patashu> so [+] is executed like +]+]+]... until the cell is zero
14:54:23 <Patashu> for loops it uses the value of the cell before the two programs take their turn for that turn
14:54:33 <Patashu> that won't matter unless both pointers are altering the same cell though
14:56:17 <leonid_> whoa lol what did i just do
14:57:00 <leonid_> maybe i should change the code for the sake of etiquette lol
14:57:32 <Patashu> I'm almost certain it's the multiplied <
14:57:35 <Patashu> so just don't use that for now
14:59:20 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:06:39 <Patashu> how long has it been this time
15:07:13 <leonid_> reduced the number of loops and still
15:07:37 <leonid_> i wonder what happens if I do +[]
15:08:02 <Deewiant> You should get summarily beaten by all opponents :-P
15:08:10 <Patashu> there's a 384000 cycle limit on a game
15:08:36 <Patashu> and the game would end as soon as one of them suicides or a flag is 0 for consecutive cycles
15:08:47 <Patashu> you can't really lock up bfjoust...except through bugs I guess D:
15:09:06 <Deewiant> Btw, does that mean one turn for both players after the flag is zero?
15:09:24 <Patashu> flag is x, both players take turns, flag is 0
15:09:31 <Patashu> flag is 0, both players take turns, flag is 0
15:09:38 <Patashu> that would declare the game over
15:09:40 <impomatic> 1 turn = 1 instruction for each player, they're run in parallel
15:09:50 <Deewiant> So 1 turn for both after it's zero
15:10:48 <Patashu> if you use [-] you're basically doing -]-]-]... so that handles the two cycle thing
15:10:56 <Patashu> but if you're using (-)*abignumber you're doing -----
15:13:42 <nooga> !bfjoust woot ([>+)*5(])*5
15:14:12 <Patashu> aww egobot doesn't do ruby
15:15:05 <nooga> puts "Segmentation fault."
15:26:09 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
15:27:15 <Patashu> does egobot do php or ruby?
15:28:04 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:28:10 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for ruby!
15:28:12 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for php!
15:28:15 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for egobot!
15:28:23 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:29:13 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 27871 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ 2>&1
15:29:17 -!- myndzi has joined.
15:30:05 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for yodawg!
15:30:16 <EgoBot> Unexpected end of file
15:30:39 <Patashu> !yodawg 1!2@3#4$5%6^7&8*9(0)-_=+[{]}\\:;'",<..>/?
15:32:37 <Deewiant> Signal 18 (CONT) caught by ps (procps version 3.2.7).
15:33:01 <Deewiant> I thought SIGCONT couldn't be caught
15:37:24 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:41:52 <Patashu> imagine a world with no !bfjoust
15:42:17 <Patashu> silent stealth assassin of !bfjoust
15:42:42 <Patashu> !echo glove owned the simfiles forums
15:42:43 <EgoBot> glove owned the simfiles forums
15:44:21 <Patashu> it seems to have an interpreter in unlambda
15:44:27 <Patashu> so it might be lambda calculus based
15:44:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option <
15:44:43 <leonid_> i tried it some with universal lambda
15:44:53 * oerjan wonders if leonid_ and Patashu have even _heard_ of the yo dawg meme
15:45:04 <Patashu> but it didn't help me solve the conundrum did it
15:45:48 * oerjan lets you ponder it for a while
15:45:50 <nooga> yo dawg, i herd u liek functions, so we've put a function in your function so now you can derive while you derive
15:46:03 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for yodawg!
15:46:08 -!- myndzi has joined.
15:46:16 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
15:46:24 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg
15:46:35 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg
15:46:40 <EgoBot> Unexpected end of file
15:46:42 <nooga> how to uninstall interpreter?
15:46:43 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:46:47 <Patashu> there was a command to do it
15:46:49 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
15:46:56 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
15:47:07 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
15:47:15 <EgoBot> unlambda (sending via DCC)
15:47:26 <Deewiant> ### Copyright (C) 2001 by Ørjan Johansen <oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no>
15:47:36 <Patashu> yo dawg we put unlambda code in your unlambda interpreter
15:47:51 <Patashu> so you can do lambda calculus while you do lambda calculus
15:48:14 * oerjan cackles his evil maniacal laughter. BWAHAHAHA!
15:49:09 <oerjan> nooga: technically i'm not sure a norwegian _can_ cancel his copyright.
15:49:33 <oerjan> although i write "public domain" in my programs recently
15:49:46 <oerjan> i can sell it, of course
15:50:00 <nooga> sell yodawg interpreter in unlambda
15:50:06 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
15:50:08 <oerjan> but i'm not sure that norway has a PD concept apart from actual expiration
15:50:34 <oerjan> not that i've actually checked
15:50:58 <EgoBot> bf >,[>,]<++++++++++++++++++++++[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
15:51:14 <EgoBot> foo bar oo bar o bar bar bar ar r
15:52:23 <EgoBot> c char buf[1024]; int i; fgets(buf, 1024, stdin); for (i=0;buf[i];i++)buf[i]=(buf[i]=='\n')?'\0':buf[i]; if (!strcmp(buf, "h")) printf("Hello World\n"); else printf("Unknown command (%s) encountered\n", buf);
15:52:45 <EgoBot> Unknown command (any other input) encountered
15:52:51 <EgoBot> Unknown command (hh) encountered
15:52:57 <EgoBot> Unknown command (hentai) encountered
15:53:13 <Deewiant> Hmm, that's an extremely silly implementation
15:53:24 <Patashu> it's not faithful to the specs?
15:53:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg
15:53:33 <Patashu> leonid if you have any trivial interpreters feel free to add them on :o
15:53:43 <EgoBot> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
15:54:01 <EgoBot> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
15:54:01 <leonid_> golfscript interpreter would be good
15:54:16 <oerjan> !slashes Then this won't work either
15:54:16 <EgoBot> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
15:54:26 <Patashu> wait wasn't slashes working earlier
15:54:53 <oerjan> GregorR: perl interps are broken
15:55:00 <Patashu> there's no ruby, python, java, php
15:55:06 <Patashu> well what ARE we meant to program in god
15:55:25 <oerjan> Patashu: Perl, C, C++, Forth, or an esolang
15:55:33 <oerjan> maybe some i've forgot
15:55:45 <Patashu> hmm...what are asm, axo and bch?
15:56:40 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:56:46 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
15:56:52 <Patashu> can't get info on commands
15:57:03 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for whirl!
15:57:17 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
15:57:50 <leonid_> bfjoust has been dead for 67 min
15:58:29 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.1687: line 1: ruby: command not found
15:58:50 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/whoami: cannot find name for user ID 1242221
15:58:58 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
15:59:39 <Patashu> oh just didn't want to do it for some reason
16:00:02 <Patashu> won't do much good for you
16:00:07 <Patashu> since it only returns one line
16:00:14 <EgoBot> Vim: Warning: Output is not to a terminal
16:00:31 <leonid_> that process is still running
16:00:39 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.2330: line 1: :q!: command not found
16:01:20 <Deewiant> Where * is glob-expanded as usual
16:01:23 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.2592: line 1: job: command not found
16:01:39 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: interps: Function not implemented
16:02:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
16:02:32 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.2902: line 1: no: command not found
16:04:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:04:49 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.3403: line 1: no: command not found
16:05:04 <Patashu> !sh echo a tear shed for those who have fallen
16:05:05 <EgoBot> a tear shed for those who have fallen
16:05:08 <Deewiant> !sh alias no='yes n'; no | head -1
16:05:09 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.3514: line 1: no: command not found
16:05:15 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:06:07 <Deewiant> Hmm, it just doesn't work like that after ;
16:06:25 <Patashu> maybe you can't save aliases
16:06:53 <Deewiant> It works if you do it as a separate command
16:07:06 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.3915: line 1: no: command not found
16:07:24 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:07:27 <Deewiant> But like said, not when separated with ; :-P
16:07:29 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
16:07:38 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg
16:07:38 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg
16:13:03 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
16:16:13 <ehird> 00:18 pikhq: AnMaster: BTW, have you ever checked out Second Life?
16:16:13 <ehird> 00:18 AnMaster: pikhq, no I haven't
16:16:14 <ehird> 00:18 AnMaster: pikhq, doesn't work in offline mode
16:16:16 <ehird> HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
16:17:19 <ehird> gregorr rewrote bfjoust?
16:18:16 -!- myndzi has joined.
16:19:58 <ehird> 01:37 psygnisfive: ive got a NeXT machine! :o
16:20:00 <ehird> it's shit, it's not a cube
16:21:00 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:25:05 <ehird> 01:06:21 <Patashu> would be to be given a set of numbers and usable operators
16:25:05 <ehird> 01:06:28 <Patashu> and to make it equal a number given upfront
16:25:06 <ehird> 01:06:31 <Patashu> first person to answer wins
16:25:26 -!- myndzi has joined.
16:25:40 <pikhq> !sh cd ..;touch flimble
16:25:41 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/touch: cannot touch `flimble': Permission denied
16:25:53 <pikhq> !sh mkdir foo;touch flimble
16:25:53 <EgoBot> /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `foo': Permission denied
16:26:27 <myndzi> firewall freaked the hell out
16:30:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's shit, it's not a cube <-- about cube... What happened to that Mac called "Cube"?
16:30:25 <AnMaster> it seems like it just was forgotten quietly
16:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It had overheating issues and also flopped commercially.
16:30:39 <pikhq> The Mac Cube was a pretty cool design.
16:30:43 <ehird> AnMaster: But some enthusiasts still have one.
16:30:47 <pikhq> Not in the sense that it ran cool, mind.
16:30:49 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!").
16:30:49 <nooga> say that about mac mini
16:30:53 <ehird> If you put two mac minis on top of each other:
16:30:53 <ehird> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
16:30:57 <ehird> it would look basically the same.
16:30:59 <ehird> (And be just as hot!)
16:31:15 * nooga has got mac mini and mb pro
16:31:19 <AnMaster> ehird, the cube did have a nice design though
16:31:23 <nooga> and mac mini < mb pro
16:31:23 * pikhq is tempted to get a Mac Cube and stick a Mac Mini in its case
16:31:51 <pikhq> ehird: Thus why I'm tempted. I want one, too.
16:31:57 <ehird> AnMaster: google.com
16:32:10 <myndzi> !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20
16:32:17 <nooga> i'd better go back to my work, erm.. playing enigma
16:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_suicide_is_your_only_option: 2.9
16:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_woot: 13.0
16:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.2
16:32:26 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 44.4
16:32:58 <myndzi> ha, it does indeed beat the defends
16:33:05 <myndzi> i thought a timing attack might work out :P
16:33:11 <nooga> still i don't get how this game works
16:33:26 <AnMaster> Just found out erlang's standard library have a module implementing a directed graph, and various operations on it (such as topological sorting). Nice.
16:33:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, if you think the G4 Cube was pretty:
16:33:57 <AnMaster> ehird, not pretty. That is something else. You can have nice design without it being pretty
16:34:02 <ehird> http://www.channelu.com/Turbo/NeXT/i/cube1a.jpg
16:34:11 <ehird> ↑ NeXTcube >>> G4 Cube
16:34:12 <myndzi> !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>-(>[>[------------++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20
16:34:13 <AnMaster> nice design as in "looks cool (NOT in the thermal sense)"
16:34:16 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 36.6
16:34:18 <pikhq> BTW, yes, I also <3 the NeXTcube.
16:34:21 <ehird> ...apart from not loading, that image is nice
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16:34:28 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/NeXTcube.jpg
16:34:30 <ehird> have a low-res version
16:34:36 <ehird> hmm actually the same one, whatever
16:34:53 <myndzi> !bfjoust test >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20
16:34:57 <AnMaster> huh why does it take so long to load then
16:34:57 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 80.1
16:35:07 <ehird> AnMaster: cuz the site is down, use http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/NeXTcube.jpg
16:35:10 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: ...apart from not loading, that image is nice
16:35:12 <myndzi> 18 | - - + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + - | 80.1 | 11 | myndzi_test.bfjoust
16:35:14 <ehird> gawd, it's just a little bit of reading...
16:35:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I was so eager to look at the picture that I didn't read the next line!
16:35:45 <ehird> AnMaster: clearer pics: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/nextsystem_on.jpg, and http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/nextcube_fullback.jpg
16:35:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 3.0
16:35:50 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like a cross between a cube and a safe?
16:35:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that would be the fan grill
16:36:14 <AnMaster> ah those clearer pics doesn't make it looks that way
16:36:17 <ehird> AnMaster: the CPU ran at 25MHz! 128KB of ROM! 12MB-64MB of RAM!
16:36:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Probably took a hint from the IBM school of design.
16:36:21 <ehird> 1120x832 two-bit video
16:36:27 <ehird> 2GB harddrive, 256MB optical drive
16:36:39 <ehird> (Nextstations used optical drives instead of HDs, but that was sloooooooooow)
16:36:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 12.3
16:36:56 <pikhq> "Your computer equipment should be able to be used instead of a cinder block for putting a car on bricks."
16:37:01 <AnMaster> ehird, needed a better fan then to not run hot?
16:37:11 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and that machine ran tis this operating system: http://www.linuxfocus.org/common/images/article128/next24.jpg
16:37:21 <ehird> which was then forced to have a child with BSD to produce OS X
16:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it just had terrible airflow
16:37:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is a cinder block?
16:37:49 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit
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16:45:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.0
16:49:16 <myndzi> why do you people insist on submitting this junk :\
16:50:00 <myndzi> < leonid_> !bfjoust lols .
16:50:13 <myndzi> Patashu> !bfjoust suicide_is_your_only_option <
16:50:26 <AnMaster> I guess it scored better than some of the pure defenders, that were waiting for something to happen
16:51:01 <myndzi> it did beat two of mine though :>
16:51:04 <myndzi> i know why but i'm not telling!
16:51:32 <AnMaster> myndzi, and I don't care really. :P
16:52:16 <AnMaster> (I'm not very interested in programming war games
16:52:40 <AnMaster> (which isn't a good name for it probably, but I can't think of anything better for stuff like corewars, bf joust and so on)
16:53:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols [-]+.[-]+.[-]+.[-]+
16:53:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.5
16:53:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 17.0
16:54:55 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 6.4
16:56:10 <myndzi> !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+>]+)*20
16:56:14 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_slowrush: 84.2
16:56:50 <myndzi> !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[>[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+]+)*20
16:56:54 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_slowrush: 80.1
16:57:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 12.6
16:57:35 <AnMaster> btw, between the June 8 and the June 13 I will be away and offline.
16:57:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 9.1
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16:58:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 9.1
16:59:34 <myndzi> where's your defense now ehird!? :)
17:00:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.0
17:00:15 <myndzi> leonid_: i'm not sure you have grasped the point of this yet
17:00:56 <ehird> myndzi: that applies to most everyone doing most everything
17:01:13 <myndzi> did the hillsize get bumped overnight?
17:01:23 <Deewiant> For some values of "overnight", yes
17:02:00 <myndzi> oh awesome, he added the archived reports too
17:04:19 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols >+[->+].[-].[-]
17:04:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.6
17:04:28 <myndzi> !bfjoust slowrush >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[+-----------------[+.]]+>]+)*20
17:04:32 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_slowrush: 77.8
17:04:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols >+[->+].[-].[-].[-].[-]
17:04:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.0
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17:11:55 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.4
17:18:04 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*20([-]<)*5
17:18:07 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 14.1
17:18:40 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*21([-]<)*5
17:18:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 16.5
17:19:00 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*22([-]<)*5
17:19:04 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 17.6
17:19:09 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*23([-]<)*5
17:19:13 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 9.1
17:19:17 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*24([-]<)*5
17:19:25 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 7.6
17:19:30 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*25([-]<)*5
17:19:34 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 7.6
17:21:18 <ehird> Deewiant: overruns the tape often
17:21:52 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*21([-]<)*5
17:21:58 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 17.0
17:22:02 <Deewiant> I think I'll settle with this guy, beats shade :-P
17:22:10 <ehird> http://buttersafe.com/2009/05/28/do-you-want-this-snake/
17:22:27 <Deewiant> ehird: I was just trying to get the right values out of the randomizer to beat the best bots :-P
17:22:43 <ehird> Deewiant: just do (>)*N(-)*128[-]
17:22:51 <ehird> it's almost optimal for the write tape length N
17:22:59 <ehird> in fact, completely optimal, I think
17:23:01 <Deewiant> Ah right, (-)*128 is of course better
17:23:03 <ehird> hm actually make it
17:23:25 <ehird> Deewiant: (>)*N(-)*128.[(-.)*128]
17:23:28 <Deewiant> Although I guess too many programs will modify their flag a bit, even attackers
17:23:55 <ehird> Deewiant: because the flag has to be 0 for two generations
17:24:02 <ehird> [-] handles this because it's [-]-]-]
17:24:13 <ehird> hmm otoh, -.-. takes the same cycles
17:24:14 <Deewiant> Oh right, the * is inside the []
17:24:20 <ehird> (>)*N(-)*128.[-], then
17:24:29 <ehird> oh wait, the [ takes a cycle
17:24:37 <ehird> Deewiant: you want a short N
17:24:41 <ehird> i'd bruteforce for N=9
17:24:48 <ehird> that way you take less cycles
17:25:06 <Deewiant> It takes less cycles than the opponent in any case
17:25:20 <ehird> but less cycles objectively = winzor or sth
17:25:26 <Deewiant> !bfjoust donald (>)*21(-)*128[-]
17:25:31 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_donald: 15.1
17:25:53 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:26:00 <ehird> leonid_: how stupid
17:26:16 <Deewiant> leonid has the amazing ability to make running the joust take upwards of 10 minutes
17:27:03 <leonid_> ehird don't hate stupid people
17:28:11 <leonid_> and why isn't it terminating again
17:28:12 <AnMaster> fun compiler bug for when the last function isn't properly closed. ./polynomial.erl:999999: syntax error before:
17:28:24 <AnMaster> note file is 125 lines long with comments
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17:32:05 <leonid_> i think ehird just hates me ._.
17:32:17 * ehird kicks leonid_ again for good measure
17:32:28 <ehird> i'm prejudiced against people i kick
17:32:43 <ehird> AnMaster: i kicked him, therefore I dislike him. QED.
17:32:44 <pikhq> I thıṅk that my dotted ıṡ don't lıḳe dots.
17:33:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think there is a flaw in that logic somewhere. But I can't pinpoint it...
17:33:12 <leonid_> hey ehird why did you stop golfing
17:33:16 <ehird> leonid_: oh you're the anarchy golf leonid?
17:33:23 <ehird> also I just haven't been there in a while i guess you brought me there now.
17:33:29 <ehird> right okay i retract my kicks
17:33:38 <ehird> you submitted a non-embed to my http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Walk+the+line
17:33:43 <AnMaster> ehird, finished that new joust interpreter?
17:33:49 <ehird> oh right that's why I stopped anagolfing
17:33:53 <ehird> EVERYONE JUST SUBMITS EMBEDS
17:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no, GregorR made his own so why bother?
17:34:04 <leonid_> post a problem that prevents embed
17:34:15 <ehird> leonid_: that sucks, there are plenty of interesting non-embed problems
17:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, hm thought it was mostly done?
17:34:25 <myndzi> ehird: the +- thing? the exahustive battle?
17:34:45 <ehird> myndzi: yeah, but GregorR said that egojoust was fine for now
17:34:56 <myndzi> well, it's currently lagged to hell, but yeh
17:35:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 11.3
17:35:03 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.5
17:35:08 <myndzi> too bad, i think i figured out how to fix my bug
17:35:11 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:35:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.0
17:35:17 <myndzi> even though it is gonna kill his ram
17:35:19 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:35:24 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.0
17:35:36 <ehird> leonid_: because ------- takes less cycles than [-]-]-]-]-]
17:35:36 <leonid_> doesn't it just go back to its position
17:35:52 <ehird> Deewiant: embedding the outputs required in the examples on the golf site
17:35:55 <ehird> instead of actually doing the computation
17:36:01 <myndzi> note that the above won't work
17:36:01 <ehird> almost always shorter than actually solving it
17:36:06 <myndzi> it'll dec you right through 0 and past it
17:36:13 <Deewiant> ehird: Ah, so it's the marking for the "cheating entries"
17:36:19 <ehird> 128→0, [, ding! you win
17:36:21 <myndzi> referring to (-(-)*128-)*128
17:36:27 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:27 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:28 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:30 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:32 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:34 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (>)*9(-)*128[-]
17:36:38 <ehird> dear lord, please make this work
17:36:43 <myndzi> i think i slowed it down horribly
17:36:56 <myndzi> i wasn't quite thinking about the numbers i was using, i should fix that
17:37:00 <leonid_> deewiant, golfscript entry for which problem?
17:37:04 <myndzi> but if/when it runs properly it should win
17:37:09 <myndzi> beat everything but shade
17:37:53 <myndzi> that's what you get for making me use loop operators for "if not zero" :(
17:37:53 <Deewiant> It doesn't cache it in between, does it? :-D
17:38:01 <myndzi> and it has to run it 20 times
17:38:24 <Deewiant> Try random shit until you get a good score
17:38:32 <Deewiant> Worked for me (for middling values of "good")
17:39:02 <myndzi> i'll take it off as soon as i can
17:39:17 <ehird> !bfjoust toofuckingexponential___indahouse (((((-)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536
17:39:21 <myndzi> if this is the compromise
17:39:31 <myndzi> he doesn't expand those
17:39:37 <ehird> 1,073,741,824 petabytes
17:39:48 <myndzi> if my understanding is correct
17:40:02 <myndzi> it should only then be somewhere in the range of 25.7MB
17:40:19 <myndzi> it'd expand the ({}) inside the () but not expand it 20 times
17:40:20 <ehird> don't care it's 1 yottabyte, in my mind
17:40:30 <ehird> where is leonid_'s 180000000000000 expansions
17:40:42 <ehird> i am talking about my (((((-)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536)*65536
17:40:58 <leonid_> what i did was doing (<)*x or something
17:41:12 <myndzi> damn i want to see the results but i gotta go to work
17:41:57 <leonid_> ehird i forgot what your main language for anagol was
17:42:17 <ehird> leonid_: varied. sometimes ruby, sometimes perl, sometimes haskell
17:42:41 <leonid_> yeah i saw some ruby submissions of you
17:42:46 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Linear+Congruences ← if Mathematica was an option this would be a oneliner :-D
17:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:33 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 9.5
17:45:42 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_toofuckingexponential___indahouse: 31.1
17:45:52 <ehird> wtf, it ran my 1yb program :D
17:46:08 <Deewiant> I wonder what it expanded it to
17:46:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.8
17:46:57 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.8
17:46:58 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
17:47:13 <ehird> that's likely smaller
17:47:26 <ehird> >> 65536*65536*65536*65536*65536
17:47:26 <ehird> => 1208925819614629174706176
17:47:45 <pikhq> ehird: It treats it as a for(int i = 0;i < HUGE_FUCKING_NUMBER;i++) and doesn't unroll the loop. ;)
17:48:06 <ehird> pikhq: but running a loop that many times should take way longer than it did
17:48:31 <pikhq> Except that it's a suicide program.
17:48:49 <pikhq> It'll end execution in the first run of the loop. :p
17:49:09 <ehird> it has to stay 0 for two cycles
17:49:16 <pikhq> I'm calling (x)*foo a loop. :p
17:49:23 <ehird> w/ [-], yes, it would stop
17:49:32 <ehird> the ] would make it suicide
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17:50:32 <ehird> 17:46 ehird: !bfjoust fuck (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
17:50:39 <ehird> ahead of you i way am
17:50:55 <Deewiant> No, you're trying to kill the interpreter or something :-P
17:51:39 <leonid_> i bet the interpreter hates you
17:52:42 -!- tombom has joined.
17:54:40 <leonid_> do i have to wait for this until the world ends
17:55:03 <ehird> this is why MYYY interpreter is needed ;;;;;;;;;;))))))))))))))))
17:56:43 <leonid_> the interpreter should have a timeout
17:58:12 <ehird> but it's slow as fuck
18:01:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
18:02:05 <Deewiant> ehird: 384k cycles was claimed by someone
18:03:50 <ehird> maybe GregorR did that
18:04:16 <Deewiant> (Thence the value used in scrooge)
18:18:36 <nescience> but the timeout doesn't count the time spent expanding
18:21:11 <ehird> nescience: yd.f oace?
18:29:43 <nescience> ehird: accidental keyboard layout swap
18:29:56 <ehird> what was it meant to be?
18:30:26 <nescience> so did you guys fuck up the bot? :\
18:30:52 <nescience> i realized to do what i want (and be victorious against everything except shade) i need THREE nested expansions
18:31:03 <ehird> !bfjoust turnintoagreenthing .
18:33:52 <nescience> open up the back door to get a cross breeze blowing
18:33:57 <nescience> and there's some chick back behind our building
18:34:04 <nescience> smoking a joint and changing her clothes
18:34:26 <ehird> First law of IRCodynamics: Everyone has a more interesting life than you, except when they don't.
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18:36:19 <nescience> so you gonna write that interpreter after all?
18:36:38 <nescience> seeing as we managed to cripple the bot somehow
18:36:52 <nescience> (plus if you do expansionless evaluation then i can make slowrush better!)
18:39:06 * ehird refactors some of the rubbish code in it and gets to work on an interpreter loop
18:41:23 <nescience> you could probably ask GregorR-L for his code
18:41:32 <nescience> the one he pasted before isn't the most recent
18:41:41 <ehird> not hard to write from scratch
18:41:45 <ehird> & his code probably isn't mit-licensed
18:41:58 <ehird> also, I'm making a new hill infrastructure
18:42:01 <ehird> so it would be rather pointless
18:42:33 <ehird> anyway, it'll just be part of
18:42:34 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
18:42:37 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
18:44:34 <nescience> i guess it must expand 90s, 'cause i can't see anything else evil in the buffer
18:44:37 <ehird> Okay let's see this parser is awful I'm rewriting the paresr
18:44:46 <ehird> nescience: I'm going to do expanding as a pre-processor stage
18:44:50 <ehird> with guards against omggigantic programs
18:45:02 <nescience> i outlined how to do it without expanding at all earlire
18:45:06 <ehird> also, no (a{b}c)%N, you can just do (a)*Nb(c)*N
18:45:15 <ehird> nescience: well, almost all programs are small enough just to expand beforehand
18:45:20 <ehird> also, yes, w/ mine
18:45:25 <nescience> 'cause you have to execute both Ns the same amount of times
18:45:27 <ehird> I know ais's interp can't handle it
18:45:32 <nescience> if the first one breaks out before it's done...
18:45:32 <ehird> nescience: ehm wut
18:45:39 <ehird> i just mean syntactically
18:45:50 <ehird> (a[)*Nb(]c)*N will work in mine, for instance
18:45:56 <nescience> i see, but i'm not sure why it's worth it
18:46:01 <ehird> so there's no need for (a[{b}]c)%N
18:46:07 <ehird> nescience: one less useless feature
18:46:26 <nescience> the problem with doing it like this:
18:46:35 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:46:40 <nescience> is that when the [ fails and you skip the rest of the iterations
18:46:49 <ehird> nescience: excuse me...
18:46:51 <nescience> you have to only do the same amount of closing iterations on the second one
18:47:03 <ehird> i don't think you understand. at all
18:47:16 <ehird> a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c
18:47:21 <ehird> which is identical to
18:47:29 <ehird> a[a[a[a[a[b]c]c]c]c]c
18:47:31 <ehird> nescience: which I am
18:47:39 <ehird> the longest legit program, when expanded, is ~1MB
18:47:47 <nescience> but you can save yourself time, energy, and memory without expansion
18:48:01 <nescience> instructions != cycles as far as legitimacy goes
18:48:03 <ehird> nescience: time, not really
18:48:11 <ehird> memory, oh noes 1MB
18:48:16 <nescience> for example, there will be programs that have a lot of code inside []
18:48:28 <nescience> and they'll have to repeat that block of [] a number of times to do what they want to accomplish
18:48:36 <nescience> so, the longest legit program can be a lot longer than that
18:48:45 <nescience> because you could skip 10000 instructions all at once
18:48:51 <ehird> I don't see your point.
18:49:11 <ehird> Deewiant: 20k in mine.
18:49:14 <nescience> my point is that 1mb, fully expanded, is not enough space
18:49:14 <ehird> I can raise it to 100k if I want.
18:49:23 <ehird> nescience: err, what
18:49:29 <ehird> running programs takes constant space
18:49:51 <Deewiant> ehird: 100k in both of GregorR's and ais's, so I'd do it
18:49:53 <nescience> yes, running programs takes constant space
18:49:53 <ehird> that means 100,000
18:50:01 <ehird> Deewiant: 20k in ais's.
18:50:02 <nescience> i submitted one that was like 25mb
18:50:09 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-05-28 09:05:45 ( GregorR-L) myndzi: Actually, 100000 in ais' and mine.
18:50:09 <nescience> and it was bugged, it should have been bigger
18:50:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't care, ais told me.
18:50:29 <ehird> nescience: it'll just reject programs bigger than 100MB.
18:50:35 <Deewiant> ehird: while ($steps++ < 100000) {
18:50:38 <ehird> since that's about as high as any legit warrior will be
18:50:42 <nescience> which is something of a mistake, and also unnecessary
18:50:51 <nescience> you could be running a program that's like 1000 bytes instead
18:50:51 <ehird> nescience: your arguments are unconvincing
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18:51:12 <nescience> partly i'm in a hurry, partly you're being stubborn
18:51:26 <ehird> nescience: ... there's no advantage to expanding it in-time
18:51:36 <ehird> you're seriously overreacting
18:51:40 <nescience> i was saying you don't have to expand it at all
18:51:51 <ehird> yes you do, to handle the cycle count
18:51:52 <nescience> but also that the ({}) syntax is necessary to do so
18:52:13 <ehird> nescience: then tell me.
18:52:16 <nescience> you simply don't count non instructions towards the number of cycles
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18:52:26 <nescience> what would you like me to tell you?
18:52:50 <ehird> nescience: how do you not expand it
18:52:55 <ehird> (+)*57 takes 57 cycles
18:53:21 <ehird> so how do you avoid expanding
18:53:44 <nescience> when you reach ), increase the counter; if it == N, then proceed, else go back to (
18:53:52 <ehird> so what advantages does this have over preëxpanding, other than using a measly 100MB less memory?
18:54:20 <nescience> the time spent to expand to that 100mb every battle (or store it)
18:54:33 <nescience> which is what is currently making EgoBot unusable
18:54:46 <nescience> and the lack of an arbitrary program length limit
18:54:46 <ehird> nescience: i can expand 100mb in like a few miliseconds.
18:54:51 <ehird> I'm just going to store it
18:55:13 <nescience> because of the nature of brainfuck, some programs are simply going to be extremely long
18:55:19 <nescience> and you are basically saying "nope, not doin it"
18:55:24 <ehird> it stands to reason that chickens are green?
18:55:32 <ehird> you're not giving me any arguments why 100mb programs are needed
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18:55:51 <nescience> because that's how many insructions it takes to do certain things?
18:55:58 <Deewiant> No point in doing it until it's necessary, unless it's trivial
18:56:00 <nescience> i can give you some code later if you like
18:56:06 <ehird> do show me this amazing 100mb warrior
18:56:20 <nescience> i don't know the exact expansion size, but from earlier:
18:56:51 <nescience> >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++[-.]]+>]+)*20 <- this program tops the hill
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18:57:02 <nescience> the 2 ties are because of polarity, so i was attempting to beat them too
18:57:14 <nescience> to do that i needed to do the -. loop a fixed number of times
18:57:17 <nescience> which means i hae to do something like:
18:57:34 <ehird> not even a KILOBYTE
18:57:38 <ehird> let along 1024KB = 1MB
18:57:50 <nescience> i'm explaining the reasoning and necessity
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18:57:51 <nescience> >(+)*20>(-)*20>+>->+>->+>-(>[[-+++++++++++++++++([-.{}([+.{}])*3000])*3000]+>]+)*20
18:58:05 <nescience> that one is broken but expands to like 4 bytes * 3000 * 3000 + something * 20
18:58:21 <nescience> the fix requires another nested loop
18:58:31 <nescience> which again exponentially increases the size
18:58:36 <ehird> nescience: let's say something=1000
18:58:36 <nescience> i didn't bother with the fix because it wouldn't work on EgoBot
18:59:25 <nescience> now take that and add another expansion like i said :P
18:59:44 <nescience> i doubt *3000, but i don't know, i haven't thought it out yet
18:59:47 <Deewiant> What's with those {}, aren't they ignored
18:59:56 <ehird> that's 100 gigabytes
19:00:05 <ehird> to hell with that :)
19:00:14 <nescience> it's definitely not gonna be *3000
19:00:32 <nescience> but my point is no expansion is necessary at all and such programs can be supported
19:00:41 <nescience> and are also within reason necessary to accomplish certain goals
19:00:51 <ehird> Deewiant: define h
19:01:19 <nescience> but apparently to you it makes more sense to expand that ~100 byte program to ~100 megs
19:01:24 <nescience> so uhh i guess there's not much i can do for you
19:01:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Whoever's chatting behind the nick nescience
19:01:45 <ehird> nescience: it seems like a lot of work for barely any game
19:01:57 <ehird> i mean... it's not as if we all have 64K of ram.
19:02:24 <Deewiant> It's pretty much the same amount of work as parsing the * in the first place
19:02:24 <nescience> 2) the gain is the lack of an arbitrary limit on what you can and can't write
19:02:30 <ehird> i don't understand it and you've explained it 3 times :-)
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19:02:34 <nescience> it requiers a counter and 2 pointers
19:02:51 <nescience> probably a stack for the counters or whatever
19:03:00 -!- max has changed nick to Guest65774.
19:03:01 <ehird> just tell me the algorithm :)
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19:03:26 -!- Guest65774 has changed nick to Taejo.
19:03:29 <nescience> an in the end, hell, being wasteful just because you can is never a great agrument
19:03:48 <nescience> well, since () are used in two contexts you need to identify ahead of time which it is
19:04:01 <nescience> for ({})%N, all you do is keep a loop counter as before
19:04:05 <ehird> nescience: wait, okay, question
19:04:08 <Deewiant> Jump to the ) and look at whether it's % or *
19:04:10 <ehird> why is ({}) necessary in this
19:04:12 <nescience> when you hit } increase it, if it == N, continue on; otherwise jump to (
19:04:31 <nescience> if you hit ) decrease it, if it == 0, continue on; otherwise jump to }
19:05:03 <nescience> the reason ({}) is necessary for non-expanding interpretation is because otherwise you don't know how many times to execute the *N affecting the ] corresponding to a [
19:05:20 <nescience> handle [] like you would if ({}) wasn't even there, as long as they are balanced inside the () they will work fine
19:05:42 <ehird> i don't see why (a[)*Nb(]c)*N wouldn't work
19:05:57 <nescience> ok, assume for a moment that before you execute a[ N times, one of the [ fails
19:06:04 <ehird> nescience: "fails"?
19:06:05 <nescience> you are then going to skip all subsequently expanded code
19:06:10 <ehird> like what, it gets all creaky?
19:06:21 <nescience> thus do not execute the contents of the brackets
19:06:25 <nescience> including the rest of the expansions
19:06:36 <nescience> you can't expand it N times, because that's too many
19:06:50 <nescience> you can't rely on the data to determine how many times to expand it, because it must match the a[
19:06:55 <ehird> Deewiant: is this making sense to you? maybe you could help me understand...
19:06:58 <nescience> in short, you're screwed (unless you expand it all ahead of time)
19:07:15 <Deewiant> ehird: See last line above :-P
19:07:36 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-05-28 21:06:58 ( nescience) in short, you're screwed (unless you expand it all ahead of time)
19:07:46 <ehird> Deewiant: that is not explanatory.
19:07:50 <nescience> if the 2nd [ expands on a 0, you skip the bolded parts:
19:08:12 <nescience> which means you need to execute "c]c" and no more no less
19:08:38 <ehird> yes, that's obv— no, it's not
19:08:38 <nescience> there's no sensible way to get "c]c" out of (]c)*3
19:08:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, looks like he's trying to explain what should happen with (a[)*Nb(]c)*N, and saying that you're somewhat screwed with the looping technique
19:08:55 <ehird> Deewiant: I know what he's trying to say.
19:08:59 <ehird> I just don't understand _what_ he's saying.
19:09:01 <Deewiant> ehird: So what do you want explained
19:09:07 <nescience> i'm sorry, i'm on limited time and i am trying to be quick
19:09:15 <ehird> I'll read it 70 times :P
19:09:16 <nescience> i can explain with more patience and detail later if you actually want
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19:10:23 <Deewiant> ehird: In a[a[>a[b]c]<c]c, the area delimited by the >< is skipped if the second [ finds 0
19:10:34 <ehird> Okay okay stop it you are just repeating him
19:10:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Did you understand that?
19:11:07 <Deewiant> Or alternatively, what don't you understand :-P
19:11:24 <ehird> English! Am foreign no americano.
19:12:21 <ehird> I take it back, whatever I said.
19:13:19 <Deewiant> ehird: So, in (a[)*3b(]c)*3 if the second time through the loop the [ finds zero, you'd need to execute c]c to preserve the semantics
19:13:33 <Deewiant> But, how do you figure that out without expanding all of the code
19:17:22 <nescience> damn, EgoBot still hasn't recovered
19:17:48 <Asztal> Guess they're not real processes then
19:18:30 <Asztal> what did you do to it, anyway?
19:20:01 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:13 -!- ehird has joined.
19:20:30 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.11841: line 1: pidof: command not found
19:21:03 <ehird> sticking to 80 columns with tabs @ size 8 kills me
19:21:06 <ehird> but my code thanks me
19:21:17 <ehird> 19:20 ehird: Disconnecting from stoned server.
19:21:22 <ehird> erm my bouncer doesn't like potheads
19:23:39 <ehird> let's say you have a for loop, looping through a thing
19:23:43 <ehird> and inside, a switch on its value, right?
19:23:54 <ehird> at some point you want a conditional in one of these cases
19:23:59 <ehird> you know, just to make sure everything's okay
19:24:03 <ehird> fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n", filename);
19:24:07 <ehird> KRRRRRRRRRR OVER 80 COLUMNS
19:24:22 <nescience> i submitted that code with the *3000s earlier
19:24:29 <nescience> but i replaced it with the original slowrush so it wouldn't slow things down
19:24:42 <nescience> ehird submitted some trash earlier, but i didn't think he expanded simple ()*Ns
19:24:45 <nescience> so i don't really know what's wrong
19:24:57 <ehird> nescience: i charge you with not being sympathetic to my pain.
19:25:53 <ehird> in fact, it's only 4 indents
19:25:58 <ehird> that's within Linus's law
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19:26:05 <ehird> I HATE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU :|
19:26:32 <Deewiant> ehird: You put the switch in a separate function
19:26:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Aha. BUT! The switch mutates a local variable SOMETIMES.
19:27:04 <ehird> Also, in one case it does a continue;.
19:27:14 <ehird> Deewiant: IT ALREADY IS A POINTER
19:27:21 <ehird> I'm not going to go around like a dolt going (*ins)->
19:27:24 <ehird> I AM A ONE-STAR PROGRAMMER.
19:27:37 <Deewiant> I'm an aleph-null-star programmer
19:28:18 <ehird> Deewiant: but i did put it in another function
19:28:33 <ehird> the continue; stops ins++ happening after the switch (but in the for)
19:28:37 <ehird> the rest just break; out from the switch
19:28:47 <ehird> i can't think of a nice way to handle that
19:28:58 <ehird> I already return ins— oh, wait.
19:29:02 <ehird> Yeah. Yeah, that would work.
19:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: BUT! But. No, wait, that's fine.
19:29:26 <Deewiant> FWIW it sounds like it's actually quite crap :-P
19:29:36 <ehird> It's just a parser man
19:29:46 <Deewiant> All this mucking about just to avoid a level 4 indentation level
19:29:56 <Deewiant> Sounds like it's obfuscating the code quite a bit
19:29:57 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't want to avoid that
19:30:08 <ehird> Deewiant: It's just that my code had some seriously long lines before.
19:30:15 <ehird> So I'm refactoring it like crazy to 80 columns.
19:30:17 <ehird> It seems to be helping.
19:30:38 <Deewiant> Yeah, I'm just saying that in this instance it sounds like it's just making things worse
19:31:08 <ehird> Deewiant: haha, except this function needs a parameter from the caller :-)
19:31:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: No. Soon.
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19:33:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, I just realised that making a new struct would help here.
19:33:48 <Deewiant> ehird: Damn, I was just about to suggest that :-P
19:33:54 <ehird> Specifically, almost all the parameters can be passed around in one struct.
19:34:07 <Deewiant> Yep, that's what I was guessing
19:34:15 * ehird underlines the already-existing note in eir mental refactoring cookbook: When in doubt, add more data structures.
19:37:09 <ehird> 'Nother thing (mostly aesthetic): Don't use structs without pointers. Generally. Because -> vs .'s ugly.
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19:37:20 <ehird> It has been a while since I wrote a C program.
19:40:53 <ehird> Deewiant: Heh. Also, one of them breaks out from the enclosing loop :-D
19:41:07 <ehird> But I can do that with a return parameter, as the original one is handled by the function itself
19:41:13 <bsmntbombdood> yes, i like to do (&foo)->bar just to avoid that ugly .
19:44:15 <ehird> Deewiant: guess what
19:44:23 <ehird> adding a struct changed filename to parser->filename in the printf
19:44:26 <ehird> thus bringing it— wait for it—
19:44:29 <ehird> back over 80 columns
19:44:50 <Deewiant> Well, printfs can usually be broken over multiple lines
19:45:03 <Deewiant> Unless parser->filename itself exceeds 80 columns at that indentation level
19:45:13 <ehird> fprintf(stderr, "Unmatched ] in %s.\n",
19:45:14 <ehird> parser->filename); /* this makes me feel like a
19:45:36 <ehird> Deewiant: I know, but it's such a trivial statement that it hurts.
19:45:39 <Deewiant> If you have 8 columns' worth I'd line break after stderr
19:46:19 <bsmntbombdood> utterly idiotic questions, no one seems to speak english
19:46:19 <ehird> YAY ANOTHER LEVEL OF INDENTATION FOR FREE
19:47:56 <ehird> lance.c:92: error: conflicting types for ‘parse_inner’
19:47:56 <ehird> lance.c:67: error: previous implicit declaration of ‘parse_inner’ was here
19:47:57 <ehird> ↑ i did parser_inner(parser);, so it inferred the type as void even though that's not mandatory, lawl
19:48:08 <ehird> guess i need a bunch of redundant function declarations
19:48:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a better BF Joust
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19:51:42 <ehird> so an angel came down to me and said
19:51:48 <ehird> "EHIRD 80 COLUMNS DOESN'T MATTER"
19:51:58 <ehird> and said "FUCK YOU, ANGEL."
19:52:17 <Deewiant> I stick to 80 columns, but with 3-column tabs
19:53:11 <Deewiant> I figure that most people these days don't care about 80 columns and use 4-column tabs, so it's fine for those folks
19:53:35 <ehird> Deewiant: ais523 has been adamant at yelling at me that tabs are defined to be exactly 8 spaces
19:53:42 <ehird> and I have been adamant at replying to him that that's total bullshit and he's wrong.
19:54:01 <ehird> Deewiant: (this is when telling him not to use mixed tabs and spaces because tabs != always 8 spaces)
19:54:04 <Deewiant> Not 8 spaces, they're defined to be "indent to the next column whose position is a multiple of 8"
19:54:25 <ehird> they're defined to be "indent."
19:54:53 <Deewiant> But that's the default position adopted by most tools.
19:56:57 <ehird> ais523 said it was "8 spaces", always, both in theory and practice
19:57:08 <ehird> programs I have here and what tab what was originally meant to mean disagrees
19:58:38 <Deewiant> Upon pondering it a bit, I do think that their definition is "indent to next tab stop" where "tab stops" vary from implementation-defined to freely modifiable by the user
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20:05:03 <GregorR-L> Wow, how have you people managed to eff up EgoBot :P
20:05:41 <Deewiant> I believe by running bfjoust programs that do tonnes of macro expansion
20:06:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, you can't prefix "I believe" into a sentence like that directly :-/
20:06:31 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck: 12.5
20:06:31 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.9
20:06:32 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_scrooge: 11.8
20:06:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_turnintoagreenthing: 4.3
20:07:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: so if my super-awesome polarity-makin' tournamentin' mega-fastin' interp is finished, will you use it or should I not bother :-P
20:07:21 <ehird> (yes, nescience, with your magical avoid-expanding-macros thing. <_<)
20:07:33 <GregorR-L> I wrote egojoust because you seemed to have lofty goals.
20:07:58 <ehird> It's donning itself presently.
20:08:02 <ehird> The goals aren't really lofty
20:08:11 <ehird> Just "run the program a fuckload of times then average that"
20:08:49 <ehird> That does not take into account...
20:08:57 <ehird> Any choice between: SIEVE, and: KETTLE!
20:09:10 <GregorR-L> .....................................................
20:09:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: Trust me, it's a good idea. Other players say so. The fact that the names make no fucking sense is irrelevant.
20:09:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, why 21 to be specific
20:09:36 <ehird> AnMaster: 21 possible tape lengths
20:09:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: Just know that it involves reversing dink and donk.
20:09:46 <AnMaster> well that sounds like a good idea too
20:10:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: So it's actually— you will shit your pants— FORTY-TWO runs.
20:10:10 <GregorR-L> But the directions are designed to make no difference.
20:10:12 <ehird> Verily, the spirit of Douglas Adams is in this implementations.
20:10:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: Nothing to do with directions.
20:10:32 <GregorR-L> I don't understand what "polarity" means in this context.
20:10:37 <GregorR-L> Seeing as that you haven't explained it.
20:10:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: Basically, if polarity is sieve, + and - do the normal thing. If polarity is kettle, for one program (either, it doesn't matter), + and - are swapped. This stops you stealing someone's program and swapping +/- and rising to the top of the hill, which is boring, and yet still makes you defend against both [+] and [-], etc.
20:10:54 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, swaps plus and minus.
20:11:03 <ehird> Or, yeah, what AnMaster said, but I explained why.
20:11:20 <ehird> And if you implement that I will sue you for infringing my imaginary patents.
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20:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, since we sent them same second *shrug*
20:11:47 <ehird> You know like imaginary numbers, they have a real part and an imaginary part?
20:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I never planned to implement joust
20:11:51 <ehird> They have the power of two fucking numbers.
20:11:54 <AnMaster> since I'm like. Not interested in them
20:11:58 <ehird> (AnMaster: I meant GregorR-L, kthx.)
20:12:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Right? So, imaginary patents,
20:12:04 <ehird> They have the power
20:12:07 <ehird> TWO GODDAMN PATENTS.
20:12:10 <ehird> You don't want to fuck with that.
20:12:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> You know like imaginary numbers, they have a real part and an imaginary part? <-- wrong
20:12:39 <ehird> .........................................
20:12:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Imaginary numbers are a subset of complex numbers.
20:12:54 <ehird> I meant to say complex, but I was not technically wrong.
20:13:04 <ehird> DOUBLE PATENT POWER.
20:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, the imaginary subset are the ones without real parts
20:13:21 <ehird> AnMaster: No, 0 or <0 real parts.
20:13:28 <GregorR-L> Your face is the one without real parts.
20:13:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: I HAVE AN IMAGINARY PATENT ON YOUR FACE.
20:14:04 <GregorR-L> So, the question is, can you implement this before I can get it into egojoust? X-P
20:14:23 <AnMaster> ehird, right, I wasn't technically wrong either, since in effect you can consider it like "no real part" (and that is how you write them: 2i not 0+2i) OR the technically correct "real part is zero".
20:14:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: What you don't realize is that I'm too lazy to put it in egojoust.
20:14:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Real part is zero OR LESS THAN ZERO.
20:14:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: I HAVE AN IMAGINARY PATENT ON LAZINESS
20:14:57 <ehird> In fact, I have an imaginary patent on everything, including not having an imaginary patent on something.
20:15:05 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Imaginary number]]
20:15:57 <ehird> Okay, now I'm going to imaginary work on my implementation.
20:16:09 <ehird> You know it's true, brotha.
20:16:53 <AnMaster> "Although Descartes originally used the term imaginary number to mean what is currently meant by the term complex number, the term imaginary number today usually means a complex number with a real part equal to 0, that is, a number of the form i·y. Zero (0) is the only number that is both real and imaginary."
20:16:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: [[Imaginary number]] <-- from there
20:17:25 <AnMaster> I can't find where it says "or less than zero"
20:17:50 <psygnisf_> real numbers range from (-inf, +inf)
20:17:58 <AnMaster> "the term imaginary number today usually means a complex number with a real part equal to 0"
20:18:11 <AnMaster> but ehird claims it means "real part equal to zero or less than zero"
20:18:28 <psygnisf_> oh. what? no. an imaginary number is any real multiple of i.
20:18:32 <ehird> [[In mathematics, an imaginary number (or purely imaginary number) is a complex number whose squared value is a real number less than or equal to zero.]]
20:18:57 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
20:18:58 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm right (as usual)
20:19:09 <ehird> AnMaster: AND YOU'RE GAY
20:19:10 <AnMaster> I shall forever treasure this moment.
20:19:12 <ehird> AND SO'S YOUR FACE
20:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, s/AnMaster/psygnisfive/ and at least one of those claims would be correct instead of incorrect.
20:19:52 <ehird> WOW GUYS AMAZING NEWS psygnisfive is *GAY*
20:20:00 <ehird> HOLY HELL HE SEXUALLY PREFERS MEN TO WOMEN. LET'S MENTION IT
20:20:11 <ehird> lawl my parser is O(n^2) because I use strlen() to allocate the result kekekekeke
20:20:27 <ehird> Deewiant: beats reallocating every 3 seconds
20:20:31 <Deewiant> ehird: GCC might actually be able to optimize that away
20:20:38 <ehird> Deewiant: It's user input
20:20:44 <ehird> EgoBot will break if you give it megabytes of raw input anyway
20:20:46 <Deewiant> ehird: I mean, repeated calls to it
20:20:51 <ehird> I only use strlen() once, Deewiant
20:20:56 <ehird> But then I loop thru da string
20:21:02 <psygnisfive> do you happen to know of any really good textbook download sites?
20:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, I thought wrote the wrong nick, since the claim wasn't valid for me I considered the other people present and talking. Thus I came to the conclusion you meant psygnisfive. I don't know why you like to mention it.
20:21:28 <ehird> Deewiant: O(n) - strlen(). O(n^2) - looping through the string again.
20:21:37 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU'RE BLACK.
20:21:40 <pikhq> ehird: strlen() has __attribute__((pure)). ;)
20:21:41 <Deewiant> ehird: Uh, how is looping through a string O(n^2)
20:22:08 <pikhq> Deewiant: Which is O(n).
20:22:10 <Deewiant> O(2n) is short for O(2 * n) which is O(n).
20:22:19 <ehird> It's just that "O(n)" is an unhelpful way to say "hay I loop twice"
20:22:39 <nescience> at least i'm back on top of the hill :>
20:22:41 <AnMaster> ehird, technically wrong too. And I don't know anyone in here who is. Since I don't care about skin colour. However you might have meant that my current clothes are indeed black? A pair of black socks. And a black t-shirt.
20:22:53 <Deewiant> Even if it's equal to O(1000n) most people assume that the constant within is meaningful somehow :-P
20:22:56 <pikhq> ehird: If thou wert smart, then thou wouldst keep the string size.
20:22:57 <ehird> AnMaster: THUS YOU ARE BLACK!!!!!!1731263712537638273621873ELEVENTYONE
20:23:05 <ehird> pikhq: Erm, I don't need it again.
20:23:08 <ehird> pikhq: After parser->ins = xmalloc(sizeof(ins_t) * strlen(source));
20:23:12 <ehird> while ((c = *parser->source)) {
20:23:26 <pikhq> struct string {char *cstr;size_t size;};
20:23:29 <ehird> Deewiant: Also known as "goddammit libc, get some fucking error handling system."
20:23:34 <ehird> pikhq: Why?! I only need it once!
20:23:37 <ehird> To allocate the string!
20:23:41 <ehird> What benefit does that get me at all in this case?
20:23:45 <ehird> *allocate the instruction array
20:24:19 <pikhq> xmalloc should have __attribute__((malloc)). :p
20:25:02 <ehird> gcc has an attribute for everything
20:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think either "ELEVENTYONE" or any variant of splitting that ("ELEVENTY", "ONE"), ("ELEVEN", "TY", "ONE") or ("ELEVEN" "TYONE") is a valid (set of) number(s).
20:25:06 <ehird> __attribute__((strfry))
20:25:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Shut up.
20:25:15 <pikhq> Informs GCC that any non-NULL pointer it returns doesn't alias with any other valid pointer.
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20:25:43 <Deewiant> __attribute__((solve-halting-problem)) int main();
20:26:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Forty = 40. Fifty = 50. Therefore, foo-ty = foo0. Eleven = 11. Therefore, eleventy = 110. One hundred one = 101. THEREFORE, Eleventy-one = 111.
20:26:07 <Deewiant> I thought gcc has an attribute for everything :-(
20:26:16 <ehird> OMGWTFBBQ HOW COME!!11
20:27:01 <pikhq> You might also want to give that __attribute__((alloc_size(1))).
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20:27:17 <AnMaster> ehird, "Therefore, foo-ty = foo0."
20:27:24 <ehird> and that's = foo*10
20:27:25 <AnMaster> so it would be the non-sense "i0"
20:27:31 <ehird> I was abbreviating informally.
20:27:40 <ehird> But foo-ty is obviously foo*10.
20:27:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure. But according to that definition of ty then 10 is 1*0 :P
20:27:52 <ehird> So ity = i*10 = 10i.
20:29:26 <GregorR-L> Whereas onety and crumpets is 10 + crumpets
20:29:30 <ehird> lance.h:14: warning: comma at end of enumerator list
20:29:32 <ehird> WHY IS THAT A WARNING.
20:29:44 <Deewiant> warning: you appear to be using GCC
20:29:59 <GregorR-L> ehird: I'd say it's because of -pedantic :P
20:30:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's not an error. It's not bad. It's good practice, for when you add new values.
20:30:12 <AnMaster> ok... why does -pedantic warn about that...
20:30:22 <GregorR-L> I believe some pre-C89 compilers choke on that.
20:30:25 <ehird> __attribute__((dont_fucking_warn_me_about_that_kind_of_shit_okay_btw_this_applies_to_the_whole_program_you_hear_me_question_mark))
20:30:32 <ehird> ↑ An attribute gcc needs.
20:30:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes. I did.
20:30:40 <ehird> CFLAGS = -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic
20:30:49 <ehird> Deewiant: -ansi = -std=c89
20:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so you don't allow -march=native there
20:31:04 <ehird> I thought adding -ansi fixed it
20:31:06 <ehird> but I removed the comma
20:31:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, does that like, use i7 on an i7?
20:31:33 <AnMaster> ehird, CFLAGS="-march=native -pipe" make will not use the -march setting in there
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20:31:49 <Deewiant> It optimizes code for the host CPU, allowing code that is invalid for other CPUs
20:31:51 <ehird> AnMaster: What the fuck are you talking about, sir?
20:32:07 <Deewiant> ehird: He's talking about you overriding any outer CFLAGS
20:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, if that above is your makefile then the cflags user set in environment will be ignored
20:32:19 <AnMaster> which may contain important bits
20:32:28 <ehird> Ehm, I've done CFLAGS=butt since forever.
20:32:28 <AnMaster> like -march, -m32/-m64 and what not
20:32:30 <ehird> Everyone does that.
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20:32:58 <ehird> So, what do I use instead?
20:33:03 <AnMaster> CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic
20:33:15 <Deewiant> -march=generic? Is that just the default setting?
20:33:21 <ehird> cc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -O3 -march=native lance.c -o lance
20:33:53 <ehird> AnMaster: what about defining CC? "CC ?= gcc" doesn't work, as make defines its own default.
20:34:00 <AnMaster> -march defaults to i386 still iirc
20:34:08 <AnMaster> -mtune=generic does "for the most common current cpus"
20:34:29 <GregorR-L> ehird: CC = gcc works, as when people override CC they don't want the CC in the Makefile at all.
20:34:33 <AnMaster> ehird, hm.. It defines it to the CC. User can override it in the environment
20:34:54 <ehird> lance.c:1: error: bad value (native) for -march= switch
20:34:54 <ehird> lance.c:1: error: bad value (native) for -mtune= switch
20:34:58 <ehird> Guess my gcc 4.1 is too old huh?
20:35:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Then it's not very useful for me.
20:35:18 <ehird> pikhq: I know that, but it defines it to cc on most systems, which is stoopid.
20:35:30 <ehird> AnMaster: No, thanks.
20:35:31 <GregorR-L> pikhq: This code clearly will not compile with non-gcc. Esp. with those CFLAGS :P
20:35:35 <pikhq> ehird: And on all systems, cc is the C compiler.
20:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it should clearly define it to /usr/bin/c99
20:35:49 <ehird> pikhq: And on all systems, cc takes -O3 -std=c89 -Wall... hmm, wait, no.
20:35:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't want to require twiddling for OS X users.
20:35:54 <AnMaster> which is the only one found in POISX 2008 (iirc!)
20:35:59 <ehird> So >gcc4.1 things are out of the question
20:36:12 <pikhq> And that's why you probably shouldn't define CFLAGS. :p
20:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But the -march=native was for what user defines in envrionment
20:36:21 <AnMaster> your makefile should respect it
20:36:27 <ehird> 20:36 pikhq: And that's why you probably shouldn't define CFLAGS. :p ← youuuuuuuuu're barmy
20:36:44 <ehird> if nobody defined cflags everyone would get -O0, warningless compiles :)
20:36:47 <GregorR-L> This is why you should use autoconf.
20:36:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: HAHAHAHA
20:36:55 <AnMaster> ehird, on legacy systems like OS X the user would define CFLAGS to be something like -march=core2 (or is the gcc too old for that as well?)
20:37:07 <ehird> AnMaster: ehird, on legacy systems like OS X ← ENOTREADINGRESTOFLINES
20:37:15 <pikhq> ehird: You're making portability damned difficult. I HATE yOU FOR THAT.
20:37:15 <ehird> Also, you have to use gcc-4.2(1) to use -march=core2 :P
20:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: So was mine
20:37:35 <ehird> Also, there are non-Core2 current Macs.
20:37:45 <ehird> The Mac Pro uses Xeon Nehalems.
20:37:47 <AnMaster> ehird, then they define -march=whatever
20:37:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I know, I know.
20:37:59 <ehird> pikhq: yeah they have to change one line in the makefile :)))
20:38:01 <pikhq> GregorR-L: He seems to think that everyone runs GCC, and specific versions of it at that.
20:38:12 <ehird> I just said I wasn't using anything >gcc4.1.
20:38:18 <GregorR-L> pikhq: That's because everyone does run GCC :P
20:38:23 <pikhq> And for that, I keel you.
20:38:24 <ehird> pikhq: Are you SERIOUSLY arguing that I should not define CFLAGS?
20:38:34 <ehird> Is your MIND on a SATELLITE in OUTER SPACE?
20:38:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GregorR-L: He seems to think that everyone runs GCC, and specific versions of it at that. <-- ehird? Seems so
20:38:37 <pikhq> That's what autotools is for.
20:38:39 <ehird> Is it communicating with your body from down here?
20:38:47 <ehird> the distance is so long
20:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway that makefile isn't going to work at all with icc!
20:38:50 <ehird> I'd better keep the thoughts short
20:38:55 <ehird> So let's not define any CFLAGS!
20:39:00 <ehird> Also, use autohell.
20:39:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so you better check if you have GCC before you add the cflags
20:39:08 <ehird> That's always a good idea. Replace a 15 line makefile.
20:39:12 <ehird> With the autotools shitfest.
20:39:16 <AnMaster> you can add -O<number> usually
20:39:26 <AnMaster> c99 [-c][-D name[=value]]...[-E][-g][-I directory] ... [-L directory]
20:39:26 <AnMaster> ... [-o outfile][-Ooptlevel][-s][-U name]... operand ...
20:39:27 <ehird> This is pikhq's satellite brain, reporting from dumbville, in orbit around Earth!
20:39:31 <AnMaster> that is what POSIX says about syntax
20:39:34 <GregorR-L> Replace a 15 line makefile with a 3 line makefile and an automatically generated autoconf.ac? :P
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20:39:50 <pikhq> For such a simple program, Autotools is easy.
20:39:58 <ehird> ARGH YOU PEOPLE ACTUALLY ADVOCATE AUTOTOOLS I'M GOING TO JUMP OFF MY ROOF YOU'RE ALL EVIL PEOPLE WHO ARE RUINING SOFTWARE
20:40:02 <pikhq> Cmake is also acceptable.
20:40:09 <ehird> ANYONE WHO USES AUTOTOOLS WILL FEEL MY WRATH
20:40:33 <GregorR-L> cd ehird/ && ./configure --without-annoyingness && make -j6
20:40:38 <AnMaster> about 5 or 6 lines cmake script if you want to "add cflags if gcc".
20:40:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: THERE IS ONLY ONE FUCKING TARGET
20:40:51 <ehird> HOW CAN YOU RUN ONE TARGET 6 TIMES AT ONCE
20:41:03 <Deewiant> ehird: For multiple target CPUs!
20:41:03 <pikhq> ehird: Run your code on more than two targets and you will thank Autotools.
20:41:08 <GregorR-L> ehird: You're saying that you're one file? :P
20:41:10 <ehird> AnMaster: for "make clean" :P
20:41:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that requires separate configurations
20:41:23 <ehird> CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic
20:41:34 <ehird> lance: lance.c lance.h
20:41:36 <ehird> @$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $< -o $@
20:41:42 <ehird> AND JUST USING C89!
20:41:44 <ehird> ARE YOU, pikhq, SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING I NEED AUTOTOOLS, CONFIG.H, PARALLEL MAKE,
20:41:48 <ehird> IFDEFS EVERYWHERE,
20:41:50 <ehird> PORTABLE ACROSS C COMPILERS TO AVOID WRITING ONE MORE LINE
20:41:54 <ehird> WHERE IS YOUR MIND! >______<
20:42:17 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying that you need to write your code right, or else I kill you.
20:42:22 <ehird> AnMaster: The pot that pikhq is on.
20:42:24 <pikhq> This is the road that leads to IRAF.
20:42:31 <ehird> It seems to be some pretty potent shit.
20:42:35 <pikhq> Not familiar with IRAF?
20:42:37 <GregorR-L> THIS IS THE ROAD THE LEADS TO IRAQ
20:42:48 <pikhq> Get its code, and weep.
20:42:50 <GregorR-L> Anybody who doesn't use autotools is a TRRRRRIST
20:43:05 <pikhq> I spent a fucking month trying to get it to build right.
20:43:15 <ehird> Hahahahaha pikhq is lecturing me about not using autotools and using portability macros and using multiple files and not making sure my 15-line makefile handles all c compilers even though I use c89.
20:43:16 <pikhq> Working full-time on it.
20:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, so that will cross compile to ARM correctly. The cross toolchain running on a SPARC. (The cross toolchain targeting ARM was compiled on a MIPS btw)?
20:43:19 <ehird> This is hilarious.
20:43:22 <ehird> He is batshit insane.
20:43:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Should do.
20:43:29 <AnMaster> (the last statement there didn't matter)
20:43:33 <ehird> It's just fucking C89!
20:43:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Just use a GNU extension in your code and you'll satisfy him
20:43:50 <AnMaster> icc: command line remark #10148: option '-pedantic' not supported
20:44:00 <ehird> AnMaster: No. "icc -O3 lance.c -o lance"
20:44:04 <ehird> Oh snap that was *hard*
20:44:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Okay, I'll prefix a random function name with g.
20:44:06 <pikhq> ehird: For a such a simple project, autotools is trivial.
20:44:16 <AnMaster> ehird, um "<ehird> CFLAGS += -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic" above
20:44:17 <ehird> pikhq: I WANT TO STOMP ON YOUR BRAINS ;_;
20:44:23 <ehird> AnMaster: So don't use the god damn Makefile.
20:44:34 <AnMaster> ehird, lets see what clang does here...
20:44:55 <ehird> You guys have driven me to suicide for the 5,000th time.
20:44:58 * AnMaster boots the computer with them on
20:45:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: djgpp, too.
20:45:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Altair BASIC
20:45:15 <ehird> See what Altair BASIC does to it
20:45:31 <pikhq> ehird: We've been naming things that we actually test code on. ;)
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20:45:37 <AnMaster> anyway I don't have turbo c, msvc or any of the other ones
20:45:40 <ehird> pikhq: Exactly, Altair BASIC.
20:45:45 <ehird> I bet it doesn't run my unportable code.
20:45:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I seem to recall that you tested CPlof on DJGPP.
20:45:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ehird: We've been naming things that we actually test code on. ;) <-- indeed
20:46:04 <GregorR-L> pikhq: But it used a different build system, because I'm not a lunatic :P
20:46:05 <ehird> pikhq: i'm even planning to include a volatile asm with the body "nop" in my code
20:46:08 <ehird> GRATUITOUS UNPORTABILITY
20:46:15 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Fair enough.
20:46:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: See, it's fair enough when I do it, it's only when you do it that it's bad.
20:46:51 <pikhq> ehird: I GET PAID TO MAKE STUFF WORK RIGHT. I HATE YOU AND SENTENCE YOU TO 50 YEARS OF PORTING YOUR CODE TO DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURES WITHOUT USING MORE THAN MAKE.
20:47:07 <AnMaster> $ ~/local/tcc/bin/tcc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c
20:47:07 <AnMaster> tcc: invalid option -- '-std=c89'
20:47:08 <ehird> pikhq: I THINK THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT YOUR JOB SUCKS
20:47:08 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I had that job at Intel for a while :P
20:47:15 <AnMaster> $ ~/local/tcc/bin/tcc -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c
20:47:15 <AnMaster> tcc: invalid option -- '-pedantic'
20:47:28 <AnMaster> other than that the flags work for it
20:47:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Well aware.
20:47:37 <pikhq> I ran into your boss last year. :p
20:47:52 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Oh yeah, I remember you saying something about that.
20:48:00 <AnMaster> $ icc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c
20:48:01 <AnMaster> icc: command line remark #10148: option '-pedantic' not supported
20:48:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: AnMaster yelled at me just because I'm going to buy an Intel processor, I guess working for them is too evil for him to even comment on :)
20:48:02 <Deewiant> ehird: What I'd probably do is put the warning stuff only when DEBUG
20:48:26 <AnMaster> opencc manages it, since it is based on a GCC frontend
20:48:38 <Deewiant> So when your average Joe builds, he won't get that.
20:48:45 <pikhq> Kinda funny. I mentioned Brainfuck. He mentioned "Oh, yeah... Someone who worked for me, Gregor, did that, too." "... Gregor Richards?" "... Yes..."
20:48:46 <AnMaster> $ ~/local/llvm/bin/clang-cc -std=c89 -Wall -pedantic -g -O3 -o hello hello.c
20:48:46 <GregorR-L> ehird: I worked in their "software portability and converting healthy infants into processor cleaning cloths" department.
20:49:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: At least you didn't DO UNSCRUPULOUS MARKETING PRACTICES
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20:49:18 <ehird> A $1bn fine just isn't enough, we have to boycott them forever too.
20:49:30 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I'm a sys-admin. Most of what I actually *do* involves RPM, though.
20:49:50 <pikhq> ehird: For the only sane RPM distro.
20:49:59 <ehird> pikhq: Paradox detected.
20:50:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, what company was that at
20:50:07 <pikhq> Mandriva does RPM well.
20:50:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, GregorR-L worked for Intel.
20:50:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: What, where I ran into Gregor's boss?
20:50:24 <ehird> You have serious multithreading issues.
20:50:29 <pikhq> I was sent to USENIX.
20:50:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, I meant, from what company he was
20:51:07 <ehird> GregorR-L worked at Intel.
20:51:10 <ehird> pikhq found GregorR-L's boss.
20:51:14 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what company could it be
20:51:17 <AnMaster> ehird, THAT IS WHAT I ASKED ABOUT YES!
20:51:22 <ehird> YOU DID NOT USE UPPER-CASE, NO.
20:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I missed the bit about Intel due to working on testing the flags in various compilers
20:52:10 * ehird actually uses the int[pointer] equivalent
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20:52:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so congrats, that makefile will work in gcc and open64, it will compile with a warning with icc. Apart from that it won't work.
20:52:39 <ehird> lance.c:92: warning: format ‘%p’ expects type ‘void *’, but argument 3 has type ‘struct _ins_t *’
20:52:46 <ehird> -pedantic is shit :)
20:52:54 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't pedantic iirc
20:52:59 <ehird> -Wall is shit then
20:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, -Wall -Wextra -pedantic ?
20:53:28 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/493136.txt?key=yu7xd3arlhs9vpb0ds1zg ← I think I have some parse tree issues
20:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what program is it parsing
20:54:06 <ehird> -Wextra is a bumbling pile of shit. Citation: Linus.
20:54:10 <ehird> AnMaster: [>[-]+] :-P
20:54:14 <ehird> I just don't add an EOF node.
20:54:23 <ehird> So it runs off the edge of the atpe.
20:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wait. that is a trace, no the parse tree?
20:54:57 <ehird> it's a parse tree that has no "OK STOP NOW" node
20:55:07 <ehird> so it runs into random memory, and here's the fun part:
20:55:21 <ehird> ins->op["+-><[].@"] (wrong way around for shits and giggles, this is a debug function)
20:55:26 <ehird> now, when we get into random memory
20:55:31 <ehird> we then dereference that random memory in my limited size array
20:55:33 <ehird> which is too small
20:55:35 <ehird> so we use random memory
20:55:38 <ehird> to access more random memory
20:55:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't wrong way around. It is perfectly valid
20:55:50 <ehird> So we get the opcodes c, o, invisible, invisible, invisible.
20:55:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "unintuitive" then
20:56:22 <AnMaster> ehird, easy enough to parse. Doesn't cause any major issues with that.
20:56:42 <ehird> It's just, you know, ridiculous
20:56:52 <ehird> (you mean i[ptr] right?)
20:57:05 <AnMaster> "+-><[].@"[ins->op] looks even ridiculouslyer
20:57:24 <AnMaster> I'm not used to indexing a string literal in code
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20:57:47 <AnMaster> the common way tends to be "static const char foo[] = "+-><[].@"
20:57:56 <ehird> as I said, debug code
20:58:22 * ehird notes that he's relying on malloc to give him zeroed memory, and fixes that
20:58:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what happens if the source contains an a
20:58:49 <AnMaster> looks like ins->op["+-><[].@"] will fail then
20:59:10 <ehird> yay, prints correctly now
20:59:16 <ehird> I just have to make it not rely on malloc zeroing :P
20:59:27 <ehird> Which is irritating, as I do parser->ins++ wantonly quite a lot.
20:59:48 <ehird> No, just advance_parser(parser) instead of parser->ins++
21:00:05 <AnMaster> malloc + handle garbage correctly is the best way
21:00:11 <ehird> That doesn't handle the first one, but I can set that manually.
21:00:15 <ehird> Not the prettiest, but meh.
21:01:01 <AnMaster> "most significant nibble".... Where on earth did I see that recently...
21:02:44 <AnMaster> imagine. a short with PDP-endianness for the nibbles!
21:02:59 <AnMaster> (short being 16 bit here, but probably shouldn't!)
21:03:07 <ehird> i used to think endian was at bit-level
21:03:09 * pikhq ponders middle-endian architectures
21:03:16 <AnMaster> ehird, there are system with bitendianness
21:03:29 <ehird> 2 = 0100000000000000000000000000000
21:03:30 <AnMaster> ehird, but on most systems you can't address individual bits
21:03:48 <pikhq> Sure you can. << and >> FTW.
21:03:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. But not as in memory address...
21:04:07 <AnMaster> which is what is relevant here
21:04:27 <AnMaster> bit-endianness isn't relevant when you can't access it like that in memory
21:04:42 * pikhq proposes that x86_128 reuse segment notation for bit addressing. :p
21:04:58 <ehird> Okay, parsing done. I do not handle (foo)*N or (foo{bar}baz)%N yet. Those can wait.
21:05:04 <AnMaster> << and >> (and their corresponding asm opcodes) are defined in terms of arithmetics. Not in terms of memory address...
21:05:07 <ehird> Time for some hot lovin'^W^Winterpreting.
21:05:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:05:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I think it might be useful with 128 bit GPs, while still being 64 bit.
21:06:36 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with this
21:06:58 <AnMaster> suggestion PDP-endianness on all levels!
21:07:17 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:07:52 <AnMaster> as in, each nibble having such for the bits, then each byte that for the nibbles, each word that for the bytes
21:08:09 <ehird> nescience: gimme a crappy tiny bf joust warrior that isn't [>[-]+]
21:08:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Grab the http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
21:08:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Those are neither crappy nor tiny
21:09:04 <ehird> Also some use ()*N and ()%N.
21:09:10 <AnMaster> ehird, [>[-]+] will always run off the end of the tape
21:09:33 <ehird> AnMaster: It wins when it sets the flag to 0, duh.
21:09:36 <AnMaster> ehird, since flag needs to be 0 two cycles in a row
21:09:45 <ehird> [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](you won!)
21:09:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Eh, sure.
21:10:14 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
21:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: I just explained why it works
21:10:28 <AnMaster> "A program does not lose due to its flag becoming 0 unless its flag is 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles"
21:10:35 <ehird> You're dense on purpose, aren't you
21:10:36 <ehird> [-]-]-]-(it's zero)](you won!)
21:10:45 <ehird> Set to zero by -, another cycle passes by ], and you win.
21:11:26 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_lunatic: 9.1
21:11:55 <GregorR-L> Probably others ran off the tape in <128 cycles *shrugs*
21:12:32 <ehird> !bfjoust loony_tick (-)*128[-]
21:12:37 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_loony_tick: 9.1
21:12:45 <ehird> What's shade do again?
21:12:57 <Deewiant> Beats me, I don't look at them
21:13:07 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_dysfunctional: 9.5
21:13:25 <ehird> !bfjoust i_will_just_wait_here_okay []HI GUYS WHAT'S UP oh, oh I lost. Dayum.
21:13:31 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_dysfunctional: 5.7
21:13:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_will_just_wait_here_okay: 5.7
21:13:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_lethargic: 6.2
21:13:45 <ehird> Letting yourself be raped is better than masturbation, this shows.
21:13:52 <ehird> Case in point: loony_tick does better than i_will_just_wait_here_okay.
21:13:54 <ehird> And doing better is BAD!
21:14:01 <ehird> This is good logic okay.
21:14:10 <ehird> What. Are you all looking at me for.
21:14:15 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pensive: 11.0
21:14:48 <AnMaster> 0 | 0 0 - - - - 0 0 0 0 - - - - - - - - - + | 6.2 | -12 | AnMaster_lethargic.bfjoust
21:14:50 <ehird> !bfjoust i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie ([{-}])%1024 ← this is my butt
21:14:53 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie: 12.4
21:15:04 <ehird> !bfjoust i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie ([-{++}-])%1024 ← this is my butt
21:15:08 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_like_big_butts_and_i_cannot_lie: 12.6
21:15:23 <Deewiant> I guess shade assumes the first nonzero it comes across is a decoy, or something
21:16:02 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_loser: 14.9
21:16:10 <ehird> !bfjoust shade_needs_to_get_laid http://pastie.org/493170.txt?key=6e0w9h8pg7tbirpusvxta
21:16:14 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid: 46.6
21:16:16 <ehird> It's totally bitch-assing.
21:16:34 <AnMaster> ehird, how does that one work?
21:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: s/[-]/[(-)*128[-]]/ shade
21:16:49 <ehird> It's totally bitch-assing.
21:17:01 <Deewiant> Oh right, that was the one that was manually expanded because the interpreter was broken
21:17:19 <ehird> Bitch-ass land!!!!!1
21:17:33 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, your interpreter doesn't handle it?
21:17:51 <GregorR-L> I'm sure it would handle it, maybe it just wasn't good enough.
21:17:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, wasn't it the one that made it slow down to a trickle?
21:18:32 <ehird> Okay, interpreter loop time.
21:18:41 <ehird> Sirs and gentlemens, I'd like to talk about interpreter loops.
21:18:45 <ehird> Y'see... they're bitch-assing.
21:19:35 <AnMaster> seems like http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust is the best current one?
21:20:14 <ehird> !bfjoust the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush >(-)*20>(+)*20>->+>->+>->+(>[[+-----------------[+.]]->]-)*20
21:20:19 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush: 67.0
21:20:31 <ehird> GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME
21:20:49 <ehird> do you have a highlight on jesus?
21:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you only do reversed ones...
21:21:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Not true.
21:21:16 <ehird> My reversed ones are the only ones that don't get knocked off the hill.
21:21:39 <AnMaster> ehird, reversed ones are cheating
21:21:44 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust yodelin_bob_farbenhowm (<)*128
21:21:48 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_yodelin_bob_farbenhowm: 2.9
21:22:01 <ehird> AnMaster: My interp makes reversed programs = unreversed ones.
21:22:08 * GregorR-L wonders why that's 2.9 instead of 0.
21:22:23 <ehird> !bfjoust mc_buttfuck_went_to_town ]
21:22:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_mc_buttfuck_went_to_town: 16.0
21:22:39 <Sgeo> ...is that even valid?
21:22:52 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_does_not_parse: 2.9
21:22:53 <ehird> Whaaaaaaat the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
21:22:54 <ehird> 9 | 0 0 - - - 0 0 0 + + - - - - - - - - - + | 16.0 | -9 | ehird_mc_buttfuck_went_to_town.bfjoust
21:23:01 <ehird> 8 | - - - - + - + - - - - + + + + + - + - + | 48.2 | -2 | ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust
21:23:08 <ehird> 10 | - - + + + + + + + - - + - 0 - - - - - - | 42.3 | -3 | ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid.bfjoust
21:23:10 <AnMaster> 3 | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | 2.9 | -20 | GregorR-L_yodelin_bob_farbenhowm.bfjoust
21:23:15 <ehird> and draws against tons of other
21:23:32 <ehird> !bfjoust oh_mc_farmer_why_dont_you_KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR [-
21:23:35 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_oh_mc_farmer_why_dont_you_KRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR: 19.2
21:24:31 <AnMaster> !bfjoust too_long_name_breaks_formatting.bfjoust [-]
21:24:34 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_too_long_name_breaks_formatting_bfjoust: 11.2
21:24:46 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:24:46 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster__: 11.2
21:25:10 <ehird> !bfjoust only_your_butt_can_break_the_infinite_mass_of_extreme_formatting_that_is_what_you_have_known_to_be_a_superllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooonnnnng_name_okay_okay_good_that_is_very_good .
21:25:14 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_only_your_butt_can_break_the_infinite_mass_of_extreme_formatting_that_is_what_you_have_known_to_be_a_superllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooonnnnng_name_okay_okay_good_that_is_very_good: 25.5
21:25:16 <AnMaster> 11 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + - + + - + + - 0 - | 67.5 | 10 | ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush.bfjoust
21:25:24 <ehird> Nopping = 25.5 points.
21:25:25 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_loser: 0.0
21:25:28 <Sgeo> !bfjoust this_is_basically_the_same_as_the_anmaster_trivial [+]
21:25:31 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_this_is_basically_the_same_as_the_anmaster_trivial: 19.2
21:25:43 <ehird> randomized tape lengths
21:25:49 <Sgeo> Maybe it isn't?
21:26:05 <Sgeo> Why is [+] 19.2 and [-] 11.2?
21:26:11 <AnMaster> 0 | - - 0 - - - - - - + - - - 0 - 0 - - - + | 11.2 | -13 | AnMaster__.bfjoust
21:26:11 <AnMaster> 11 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + - + + - + + - 0 - | 67.5 | 10 | ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush.bfjoust
21:26:29 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a puddle of infinity!
21:26:34 <AnMaster> 10 | - - - + + + + + + + - + - 0 - - - - - - | 41.5 | -3 | ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid.bfjoust
21:26:40 <AnMaster> that is the second line I meant to paste
21:26:51 <Sgeo> Where can I learn about BF Joust?
21:26:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: So where's your bitchin' sweet interpreter?
21:27:02 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=bf+joust
21:27:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: Being written this very second, you bitch ass.
21:27:20 <GregorR-L> ehird: Bitchin' bitchin' bitch bitchin' bitch.
21:27:34 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:27:41 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:27:53 <AnMaster> I wanted to name my program a space
21:28:00 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:28:38 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust make_me_a_sammich (>)*10+>->+[[-]>+]
21:28:42 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_make_me_a_sammich: 12.0
21:28:44 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:28:44 <Sgeo> !bfjoust sleep [.]
21:28:48 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_sleep: 25.5
21:28:53 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 25.5
21:29:04 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> !bfjoust sleep [.] <-- I did that above
21:29:15 <ehird> !bfjoust iturnedintoa >>>>>>>>>>+[>+][[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]Sandwiches are >++
21:29:18 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_iturnedintoa: 4.8
21:29:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0
21:30:05 <ehird> !bfjoust negativeplz <<<<<<<<<
21:30:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_negativeplz: 0.0
21:30:16 <ehird> my 0.0 is smaller than yours
21:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, also GregorR-L did lower than 4.8 before
21:30:22 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 30.3
21:30:42 <ehird> Challenge: Lowest positive score.
21:30:45 <ehird> !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (-)*127<
21:30:50 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 8.5
21:30:59 <ehird> It weakens itself pitifully, then runs off the tape. But still does okay.
21:31:02 <ehird> !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (-)*127[>+]
21:31:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 21.0
21:31:08 <ehird> !bfjoust oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see (+)*127[>+]
21:31:12 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_oh_you_have_a_nose_i_see: 16.5
21:31:18 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_fail: 19.0
21:31:35 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 30.9
21:31:39 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 11.2
21:31:51 <Deewiant> Oh, ehird already did something like that
21:32:04 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0
21:32:10 <ehird> !bfjoust i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die [>(+)*127] i am very helpful
21:32:15 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die: 4.1
21:32:15 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 3.9
21:32:23 <ehird> I had the world record for <1 second
21:32:24 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 3.8
21:32:29 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 0.0
21:32:31 <ehird> !bfjoust i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die [>(-)*127>+]
21:32:34 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai2: 3.8
21:32:37 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_hate_myself_and_i_want_to_die: 10.2
21:32:37 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0
21:32:41 <Sgeo> !bfjoust another_loser -
21:32:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0
21:32:46 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_another_loser: 32.7
21:32:49 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.0
21:32:50 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck_my_life (>)*37
21:32:52 <Sgeo> How did that happen?
21:32:54 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 0.0
21:32:54 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.2
21:33:03 <Sgeo> How did - survive at all?
21:33:07 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_oh_nose: 35.0
21:33:08 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck_my_life (>)*9(<)*9[-]
21:33:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Haha 0.2
21:33:12 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 16.4
21:33:26 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0
21:33:27 <GregorR-L> <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ohai: 0.2 // nothing's going to beat this.
21:33:30 <ehird> !bfjoust fuck_my_life >-<->-<-
21:33:35 <Deewiant> ehird: I expect it to be thanks to your fuck_my_life
21:33:36 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fuck_my_life: 16.8
21:33:37 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai: 6.1
21:33:44 <Sgeo> !bfjoust ohai_sensible (-)*35
21:33:45 <Deewiant> ehird: It would've got 0 if that hadn't been in the same run :-P
21:33:45 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0
21:33:50 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_ohai_sensible: 32.0
21:33:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Since yours killed itself before mine did
21:34:04 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:34:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you were lucky with tape length
21:34:06 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
21:34:12 <ehird> !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*65536
21:34:17 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_parenthesi_or_butt: 36.4
21:34:18 <pikhq> !bfjoust loserp (-)*128
21:34:20 <GregorR-L> The actually good programs on top seem unthreatened :P
21:34:21 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_loserp: 3.5
21:34:26 <ehird> !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*10000000000
21:34:30 <ehird> THIS WILL GET LIKE 300000000000
21:34:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, 37 is over the max (I think)
21:34:46 <Sgeo> !bfjoust more_loserp (-)*65536
21:34:59 <pikhq> The single most straightforward suicider didn't get a 0?
21:35:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No luck involved... my program killed itself before anything could touch it, but ehird's killed itself first
21:35:09 <ehird> !bfjoust fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil (-)*99999999999
21:35:11 <Sgeo> !bfjoust more_loserp (-)*6553
21:35:14 <nescience> ehird: polarity for slowrush played a part in one warrior
21:35:25 <nescience> - gets 1 loss 2 ties and + gets like 2 losses 2 ties
21:35:32 <Sgeo> Why isn't more_loserp running
21:35:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Did you have to do that again?
21:35:35 <nescience> also seriously, would you quit with the submitting the inverse thing?
21:35:37 <GregorR-L> ... what have you done this time? :P
21:35:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo, because ehird clogged it
21:35:43 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: ehird's *9999999999999 I expect
21:35:58 <ehird> nescience: not until i has my polarity :)
21:36:39 <nescience> good, as soon as you do then it'll be only 1 loss 0 ties :)
21:36:45 <Sgeo> Wait, enter needs to be 0 two times?
21:37:05 <ehird> nescience: Who's the loss?
21:37:41 <nescience> it may have been more than one actually
21:37:44 <GregorR-L> That really shouldn't cause this kind of problem.
21:37:58 <ehird> SHADE NEEDS TO GET PAID
21:38:11 -!- stupid_connectio has joined.
21:38:18 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ohai: 0.0
21:38:18 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_more_loserp: 39.3
21:38:18 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil: 49.5
21:38:19 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_more_loserp: 39.3
21:38:19 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_parenthesi_or_butt: 52.3
21:38:36 <ehird> 21:34 ehird: !bfjoust parenthesi_or_butt ()*10000000000
21:39:06 <GregorR-L> That's because I killed them so it tied a bunch.
21:39:24 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*30
21:39:28 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 28.3
21:39:30 <nescience> GregorR-L: how about eliminating polar duplicates from the hill? :P
21:39:51 <GregorR-L> ehird's interpreter will do the trick.
21:39:55 <lament> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
21:40:03 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*28
21:40:07 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 17.2
21:40:09 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*32
21:40:12 <nescience> then infinite variations of the same warrior can be submitted
21:40:13 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 27.7
21:40:15 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*31
21:40:17 <ehird> YES HELLO lament, THIS IS TRULY AMAZING
21:40:19 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 15.0
21:40:22 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*29
21:40:24 <ehird> WOW, DO YOU WANT TO TURN INTO A -
21:40:32 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 16.9
21:40:55 <ehird> A SCALE OF MONTOLOGY, lament.
21:40:58 <ehird> JUST BASIC SCIENTIFICS.
21:41:49 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust hopefully_fixed_bug ()*1000000
21:41:54 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_hopefully_fixed_bug: 29.4
21:42:05 <ehird> !bfjoust hopefully_+mug ()*1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
21:42:09 <ehird> ONE THOUSAND GILLION
21:42:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_hopefully__mug: 31.1
21:42:32 <ehird> i am an avant-gardist. isn't that right lament? lament? ent? ?
21:43:21 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_toast: 10.9
21:43:41 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_toast: 9.6
21:44:38 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_toast: 20.1
21:47:27 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:48:06 -!- stupid_connectio has changed nick to impomatic[2].
21:48:09 -!- myndzi has changed nick to myndzi\.
21:48:35 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
21:49:30 <nescience> accidentally submitted under wrong nick
21:49:45 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+]
21:49:49 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 39.5
21:50:04 <nescience> too many ties, needs to be a suicide
21:50:06 -!- nescience has changed nick to myndzi\.
21:50:39 <ehird> brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrb.
21:53:33 -!- GregorR has quit (Connection timed out).
21:53:55 <myndzi\> at least you didn't wind up with 'no route to host' earlier :)
21:53:58 -!- GregorR has joined.
21:54:52 <pikhq> BTW, any idea which program that (-)*128 is *beating*?
21:55:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Connection timed out).
21:55:44 <pikhq> myndzi\: The text being?
21:57:00 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+>([{}-])%5-]
21:57:04 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 39.1
21:57:50 <GregorR-L> Wow, that myndzi\_foo really confused it :P
21:59:41 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>[[-]-]+]
21:59:45 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 37.7
22:00:13 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 34.2
22:00:37 -!- impomatic[2] has changed nick to impomatic.
22:01:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but it's fixed now, that shouldn't cause issues.
22:01:59 <myndzi\> i didn't realize iw as on my altnick
22:02:03 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to nescience.
22:02:10 <nescience> and then it responded and i thought crap!
22:02:18 <nescience> tried to fix it, but with all the defenders, the ties kept it on the board
22:02:39 <GregorR-L> Due to its confusion, when it finally erased one it was the good one :P
22:03:28 <nescience> without a better interpreter or bogging down the bot
22:03:31 <Deewiant> And you're losing to shade, too
22:03:47 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
22:03:48 <nescience> i think i'll stick to the 3 ties 1 loss
22:03:54 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 30.6
22:04:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0
22:04:21 <nescience> it must have got lucky when i first tried the updated slowrush
22:04:28 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0
22:04:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0
22:04:38 <nescience> i'll have to think of another way to beat the reflected slowrush
22:04:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: (x)*number -> x repeated number times
22:04:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I'm trying to break it
22:05:07 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.0
22:05:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 28.1
22:05:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it breaks you get 0, I guess it might read some of them as comments
22:05:44 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 32.0
22:06:36 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 52.5
22:06:54 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
22:07:01 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 29.9
22:07:08 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: That had to be a bug
22:07:08 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Connection reset by peer).
22:07:11 <Deewiant> 0 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 | 52.6 | 0 | AnMaster_foo_.bfjoust
22:07:13 <GregorR-L> I want to know what that actually did though :P
22:07:22 <nescience> 18 | + 0 + + + + + + + + 0 - + + + + + + + | 90.0 | 15 | myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust
22:07:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, what? -(*{}{\+[])%1 segfaulted?
22:08:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, you need more fuzz testing then!
22:08:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It tied against everything
22:08:06 <nescience> i'll have to consider a different way to beat the stallers without messing up my attack
22:08:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, I expect you to fix the bug in the parser
22:08:49 <AnMaster> !bfjoust interpreter_fail -(*{}{\+[])%1
22:08:51 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_interpreter_fail: 52.5
22:09:07 <AnMaster> and will stay there for a while
22:09:25 <GregorR-L> Nope, because I just fixed the bug.
22:09:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, sure. But you won't retcon the history!
22:09:40 <Deewiant> Time for another POOPER SCOOPER
22:09:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: GregorR-L_pooper_scooper.bfjoust
22:10:03 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+]
22:10:07 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 38.9
22:10:24 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 31.4
22:10:32 <GregorR-L> interpreter_fail is still there! D-8
22:10:44 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: It tied against everything except pooper scooper :-D
22:11:09 <Deewiant> nescience: I guess he can't tell which one errored
22:11:30 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+]
22:11:36 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 35.7
22:11:59 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.2
22:12:12 <GregorR-L> It tied against interpreter_fail P
22:12:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, why did you rerun the interpreter fail one
22:12:36 <GregorR-L> There were only 20 on the hill at the time.
22:12:39 <Deewiant> It's not a rerun, it's on the hill
22:12:53 <nescience> just need to validate programs beforehand or something
22:13:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, you did. The ties should be the same. Or do you rerun them all every time. All against all other ones?
22:14:13 <Deewiant> History wasn't altered; these programs are all pure, right?
22:14:25 <GregorR-L> Should be, except when I fix bugs :P
22:14:26 <Deewiant> Same output for the same input
22:14:48 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 22.9
22:14:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It depends only on the sources of the two combatants
22:14:57 <AnMaster> thus removing the cache will always alter programs
22:15:18 <GregorR-L> The tape length is generated from the source of the two programs.
22:15:35 <Deewiant> No, the programs are pure so it's impossible for history to have changed
22:15:37 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_foo_: 0.2
22:15:39 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%10+]
22:15:42 <Deewiant> Since it's impossible it didn't happen :-P
22:15:43 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 30.7
22:16:04 <Deewiant> Meh, why does train2 have such a low score
22:16:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, don't you dare push it off!
22:16:04 <GregorR-L> (Until somebody actually ADDS a better one)
22:16:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train3 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([>][[-][-]>+])*27
22:16:15 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train3: 23.6
22:16:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_amazingly_useless: 18.6
22:16:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, don't you dare push it off by hand!
22:17:03 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It was pushed off by report.c :P
22:17:22 <Deewiant> Meh, nescience/myndzi owns the whole hill
22:17:38 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
22:17:45 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster___: 0.0
22:17:57 <AnMaster> !bfjoust %999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:17:58 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
22:18:01 <AnMaster> !bfjoust t %999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:18:05 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_t: 28.5
22:18:13 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust AnMaster_is_a_loser (.)*10[>(+)*128]
22:18:14 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:18:17 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_AnMaster_is_a_loser: 17.0
22:18:17 <nescience> GregorR-L: any idea if it really was my program that broke things earlier?
22:18:21 <nescience> or was it the messin around after that
22:18:22 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_q: 32.6
22:18:33 <nescience> if it's not gonna break things i'd still like to try and fix those ties
22:18:39 <nescience> GregorR-L: the one with the nested *3000's
22:18:55 <GregorR-L> nescience: Oh, it wasn't yours, it was another. Should be fine.
22:18:57 <nescience> the bot was out of commission so long i figured maybe it wasn't lag, maybe something else was wrong
22:19:00 <Deewiant> nescience: Given that the admin is here now it's fairly safe to try ;-)
22:19:07 <AnMaster> !bfjoust t2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:19:11 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_t2: 52.5
22:19:14 <nescience> i don't think i need 3000 after all anyway
22:19:21 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Your interp is a pile of bugs
22:19:25 <nescience> that was just because i thought i wasn't looping enough
22:19:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, don't clear the cache this time!
22:19:40 <nescience> when it was a different problem entirely
22:20:04 <Patashu> tieing everything gives you a REALLY good score
22:20:14 <GregorR-L> Patashu: A tie is better than a loss.
22:20:27 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
22:20:31 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 35.1
22:20:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
22:20:32 <AnMaster> !bfjoust interpreter_fail2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:20:36 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_interpreter_fail2: 52.4
22:20:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 35.3
22:20:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:20:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.6
22:20:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
22:20:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 31.0
22:20:51 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20
22:20:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 28.8
22:21:02 <AnMaster> !bfjoust push_them_off1 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:21:05 <AnMaster> !bfjoust push_them_off2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:21:05 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_push_them_off1: 52.5
22:21:07 <AnMaster> !bfjoust push_them_off3 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:21:08 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_push_them_off2: 52.5
22:21:12 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_push_them_off3: 52.5
22:21:14 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train2 (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][-]>+])*27
22:21:14 <AnMaster> !bfjoust yes_jerk >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:21:20 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_yes_jerk: 52.4
22:21:20 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train2: 37.1
22:21:34 <Deewiant> Hey, you ass, you killed sloth
22:21:40 <AnMaster> I guess he will just retcon history
22:21:41 <Deewiant> I'll have to dig into text files to find its source again
22:21:42 <Patashu> saying *number where number is greater than 386000
22:21:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it scored worse than all draws
22:22:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: All draws is fairly good
22:22:08 <Deewiant> Patashu: 100k is the turn limit
22:22:08 <Patashu> that's the max number of cycles
22:22:12 <nescience> not when they aren't draws but broken programs
22:22:31 <Deewiant> Beats me, but that's what it is :-P
22:22:34 <AnMaster> 7 37.07 -5 Deewiant_train2.bfjoust
22:22:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if I pushed off sloth it must have been very bad
22:22:55 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
22:22:58 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.5
22:23:05 <AnMaster> and he should test them properly
22:23:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I repeat; all draws is good
22:23:22 <AnMaster> 7 37.07 -5 Deewiant_train2.bfjoust
22:23:25 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%10+]
22:23:33 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 37.4
22:23:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It used to be over 50
22:23:42 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:24:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And I'd like to see you do better without abusing bugs before complaining :-P
22:24:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, please can has formal verification next time, mkay?
22:24:50 <Deewiant> Patashu: All those all-drawers are causing the interp to crash
22:24:56 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:24:57 <Deewiant> Patashu: Which is why they draw :-P
22:25:00 <AnMaster> that is, next time I manage to crash it. you have to do a full formal verification.
22:25:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
22:25:33 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.2
22:25:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
22:25:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 36.0
22:25:43 <AnMaster> !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones1 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:25:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
22:25:46 <AnMaster> !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones2 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:25:49 <AnMaster> !bfjoust hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones3 >+>+>(+{(-)*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999}+)%999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
22:25:49 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones1: 25.7
22:25:50 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 35.8
22:25:51 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones2: 25.7
22:25:53 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_hm_this_should_be_good_since_it_will_draw_against_the_other_ones3: 25.3
22:25:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:25:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 49.4
22:26:01 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
22:26:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 26.2
22:27:00 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 41.8
22:27:15 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*5000(-)*5000(+-)*5000(-+)*5000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:27:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 47.8
22:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it clearly prevents it being 0 twice in a row a lot
22:27:30 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:27:31 <Deewiant> Since most programs try to kill with a [-]
22:27:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 48.1
22:27:54 <Deewiant> Patashu: Given 100k, there's some pointlessness there :-P
22:28:01 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test2: 45.9
22:28:08 <Patashu> I'm trying to figure out why making it use every cycle hurts it :/
22:28:17 <Deewiant> Because of the randomization, I guess
22:28:19 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 34.6
22:28:19 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test2: 34.6
22:28:38 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100001
22:28:41 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:28:43 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 36.1
22:28:45 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 43.2
22:28:49 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
22:28:53 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 45.3
22:28:55 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100002
22:28:56 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*10(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
22:29:00 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 44.9
22:29:00 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 24.1
22:29:12 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*128-(--+)*128)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
22:29:15 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 23.5
22:29:23 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100
22:29:27 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 30.5
22:29:31 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100002
22:29:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 43.2
22:29:38 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100001
22:29:41 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*128(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
22:29:43 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 35.6
22:29:45 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 40.9
22:29:50 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer (-)*100003
22:29:54 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer: 44.7
22:29:55 <Deewiant> !bfjoust sloth (+)*12((++-)*1024-(--+)*1024)*100(>)*8+([>[-]+])*100
22:29:59 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sloth: 41.0
22:30:50 <AnMaster> anyway I think it is valid to go for the insane approach!
22:31:12 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+<<<(-)*100003
22:31:16 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 0.0
22:31:23 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+<<(-)*100003
22:31:28 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 47.2
22:31:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_test: 43.2
22:32:00 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_test: 0.0
22:32:34 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer2 >+>+<<(-)*100003
22:32:38 <Deewiant> Remove dead instructions -> oops, they affected the randomizer so now you lost against this dude
22:32:39 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer2: 47.0
22:33:05 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 31.2
22:33:18 <AnMaster> I use test as my "working" copy. and then name the good ones properly
22:34:14 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 34.8
22:34:20 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.0
22:34:36 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 26.6
22:34:46 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.1
22:34:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that does make a difference though
22:35:26 <Deewiant> !bfjoust farmhand (+-)*25000(-+)*25000
22:35:30 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_farmhand: 36.1
22:35:35 <AnMaster> I wonder how the mad changer can ever lose against any of them
22:36:12 <AnMaster> you are just experimenting with randomness right?
22:36:16 <Patashu> the mad changer can lose against an opponent that does not zero using a loop
22:36:21 <ehird> 22:06 nescience: jesus ehird ←wut
22:36:36 <Patashu> if an opponent gets it onto 0 then uses + it wins
22:36:42 <Patashu> so you just need a creative non-loop based attack
22:36:45 -!- inurinternet has joined.
22:36:48 <ehird> 22:08 AnMaster: GregorR, I expect you to fix the bug in the parser ←AnMaster expecting things since 198x
22:36:52 -!- Taejo has quit ("Leaving").
22:37:05 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_killa: 26.0
22:37:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ^ beats mad changers
22:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, your mom didn't expect you I guess...
22:37:40 <ehird> AnMaster: ...what?
22:37:44 <ehird> is that meant to be an insult
22:37:45 <ehird> because it's really bad
22:37:53 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:37:55 <AnMaster> !mad_changer2 >+>--<<(+)*100003
22:37:57 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.5
22:38:27 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[+][+]>+])*27
22:38:30 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.4
22:38:34 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>--<<(+)*100003
22:38:39 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 38.9
22:38:43 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>-])*27
22:38:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.8
22:38:58 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->+<<<(+)*100003
22:39:03 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 32.7
22:39:03 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*3(>(+)*10)*3(>)*4+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:39:07 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.5
22:39:10 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->>+<<<<(+)*100003
22:39:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 31.5
22:39:15 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*2(>(+)*10)*2(>)*6+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:39:19 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.3
22:39:23 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*5(>(+)*10)*5(>)*0+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:39:27 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 23.8
22:39:37 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>-->>+<<<<(+)*100000
22:39:42 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 34.1
22:39:43 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*1(>(+)*10)*1(>)*8+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:39:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 26.5
22:39:51 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4(>)*2+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:39:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.4
22:40:12 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*27
22:40:17 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.0
22:40:29 <Deewiant> (>)*2 to >> improved that quite a bit, sigh
22:40:31 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer4 >+>-->>++<<<<(+)*100003
22:40:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer4: 37.3
22:40:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sets up a few decoys then attacks
22:40:57 <ehird> Magggnetic levitttation
22:40:58 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*30
22:41:00 <ehird> Deewiant: my interp has noooooooo randomness
22:41:01 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 46.0
22:41:10 <ehird> 22:33 AnMaster: I use test as my "working" copy. and then name the good ones properly ← stop messing up the hill
22:41:20 <Deewiant> ehird: That doesn't mess anything up
22:41:26 <ehird> Deewiant: does in my mind :))))))
22:41:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't yet know what it will be then
22:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: And you wrote cfunge in a day, didn't you?
22:41:35 <Deewiant> ehird: But doesn't actually :)))))))
22:41:45 <ehird> Hey ehird! Finished that code? No? Hehehehehe, you're a slacker who never does anything.
22:41:48 <AnMaster> ehird, but what has that got to do with it
22:41:48 <ehird> Hey ehird! Finished that code? No? Hehehehehe, you're a slacker who never does anything.
22:41:58 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with the hill
22:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I was not talking about the hill.
22:42:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you are talking about how your will solve it all the time
22:42:27 <Patashu> what's the current interp glitch?
22:42:28 <ehird> AnMaster: It's called being silly.
22:42:37 <ehird> Patashu: randomosity & no polarity
22:42:54 <GregorR-L> Neither of those are glitches, they're just definitional :P
22:43:08 <ehird> Yes, but they're nice to not have.
22:43:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:44:10 <Deewiant> ehird: What'll you do about randomosity
22:44:25 <ehird> Deewiant: For two challengers, run every combination of (tape_length,polarity).
22:44:36 <ehird> This requires a fast implementation. :)
22:44:42 <Patashu> so you ARE doing the change polarity thing I mentioned :)
22:44:44 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>-->+>>+>+>+>+>+>-+>+++>>++>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000
22:44:48 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 14.5
22:44:48 <Deewiant> ehird: I'd take the stddev, too
22:44:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, good idea
22:45:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think you might run over the tape there already, on occasion
22:45:51 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+>+>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000
22:45:55 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 22.1
22:46:04 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000
22:46:08 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 33.0
22:46:11 <ehird> winner_t run_match(ins_t *a, ins_t *b, polarity_t polarity, int tape_length);
22:46:13 <ehird> Let's gooooooooooo
22:46:17 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000
22:46:19 <ehird> That should go in a match_t structure.
22:46:22 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 42.1
22:46:27 * ehird underlines "When in doubt, add another data structure." again
22:46:53 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer3 >+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>++++>-->+>>+>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<(+)*1000000
22:46:57 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer3: 41.6
22:47:20 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:47:21 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 48.9
22:47:35 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer_4 (+)*1000000
22:47:40 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer_4: 48.1
22:47:55 <AnMaster> 10 38.50 -5 ehird_defend8mwahahaha.bfjoust
22:47:58 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*10>(-)*10>(-)*10>(+)*10)*2>((+)*10[+[-]]+.--.++>(-)*10[-[+]]+.--.++>)*10(+)*8[+[-]]+.--.++
22:48:01 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 42.9
22:48:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Remove test first when you copy it to a named one, or you drop an extra program off the hill
22:48:32 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 0.0
22:48:45 <Patashu> that's how you remove it :)
22:48:46 <ais523> has the hill been enlarged?
22:48:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what I'm developing
22:48:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Just name it something random!
22:48:58 <Deewiant> ais523: Size 20 as of 16 hours ago
22:49:05 <ehird> ais523: Yeah, and Gregor made a new implementation.
22:49:09 <ehird> But I'm making a new new implementation :P
22:49:17 <ehird> (Gregor's is just faster, nothing else)
22:49:27 <Deewiant> http://narf.at/pix/ab1512bd2a6df0270a9a4320103c4cac21e4f018.jpeg
22:49:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes he is what?
22:50:00 <ehird> Do you give programs genders?
22:50:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: how long did it take you to code it, perchance?
22:50:41 <ehird> No? Guess you're too slow for SPEEDY AnMaster
22:50:48 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com .").
22:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well, he started after you did. And you aren't yet done
22:51:15 <ehird> Because I've done other things, goddamn you impatient bastard. And his interp is just a trivial reimplementation.
22:51:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> Because I've done other things, goddamn you impatient bastard. And his interp is just a trivial reimplementation.
22:51:37 <ehird> I'm really tired of HEY EHIRD YOU'RE TALKING MORE THAN A FEW MINUTES TO IMPLEMENT IT YOU'RE SO SLOOOOOW GREGOR IS SO FASTER YOU SUCK
22:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you are misrepresenting my opinions here
22:52:08 <ehird> Sorry, you don't say "YOU SUCK". Scratch that part.
22:52:22 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>+])*30
22:52:24 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 38.0
22:52:26 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>])*30
22:52:28 <ehird> Then me and clog must be hallucinating.
22:52:29 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 19.5
22:52:31 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>])*40
22:52:34 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 31.0
22:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you began it yesterday right?
22:52:46 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+.]>]+)*40
22:52:48 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 38.0
22:53:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T GIVE A SHIT! WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS AGAIN?!
22:53:04 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-.][+]>]+)*40
22:53:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you began before GregorR yesterday
22:53:06 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 40.0
22:53:07 <GregorR-L> Oh for cripes sake, you two go sit in opposite corners.
22:53:15 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+.]>]+)*40
22:53:18 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 36.6
22:53:18 <AnMaster> and you are claiming this is "a few minutes"
22:53:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: I just don't know why the fuck he's bugging me about not implementing it as super fast as I can
22:53:21 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-]>]+)*40
22:53:24 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 16.6
22:53:30 <ehird> AnMaster: BECAUSE YOU KEEP BUGGING ME ABOUT IT EVERY HOUR
22:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not bugging you about doing it
22:53:40 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-]>]+)*40
22:53:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.4
22:53:49 <AnMaster> but I'm irritated at you talking a lot about it and doing nothing
22:53:52 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>])*30
22:53:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 19.4
22:53:58 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>])*30
22:54:01 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 35.6
22:54:07 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe ehird is doing something, just there's no visible proof
22:54:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>+])*30
22:54:11 <ais523> like the NetHack devteam
22:54:13 <AnMaster> !bfjoust maglev_deewiant (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>])*30
22:54:13 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 26.9
22:54:16 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewiant: 34.5
22:54:21 <ehird> ais523: He goddamn knows I'm developing it
22:54:23 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>+])*30
22:54:25 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 42.5
22:54:29 <ehird> He just keeps saying "HEY EHIRD ARE YOU DONE YEEEEEET????????????????????????????"
22:54:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try submitting the same twice?
22:54:47 <ehird> 22:53 AnMaster: but I'm irritated at you talking a lot about it and doing nothing
22:54:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's because you were against my maglev
22:54:59 <Deewiant> Whereas when I do it myself, it obviously isn't there
22:55:01 <ehird> No. Not a lot. I'm just joking every now and then when people talk about the randomosity etc.
22:55:05 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->+([[-][+]>+])*30
22:55:08 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.5
22:55:13 <ehird> God damn, I can't joke without being hounded for hours by AnMaster now. Lovely.
22:55:14 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>+])*30
22:55:17 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 30.6
22:55:22 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:55:24 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 33.5
22:55:29 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>+([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:55:32 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 27.6
22:55:32 -!- pikhq has changed nick to p.
22:55:36 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:55:39 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.5
22:55:41 -!- p has changed nick to pikhq.
22:55:48 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:55:51 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 36.6
22:55:54 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->>([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:55:56 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.3
22:56:05 <pikhq> Aaaw. I was trying to make pıkhq an alias.
22:56:07 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
22:56:09 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.5
22:56:15 <pikhq> Freenode hates Unicode nicks.
22:56:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, it would be interesting to run the program against itself and show if it won or it was a draw
22:56:41 <ehird> AnMaster: A program always draws against itself.
22:56:50 <nescience> GregorR-L: does your interpreter handle nested ({})?
22:57:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure you could make one that didn't
22:57:18 * pikhq bets you couldn't even register ørjan
22:57:21 <ehird> Deewiant: That draws on everything
22:57:23 <Deewiant> Doesn't the first program lose before the other gets a turn
22:57:36 <AnMaster> hm yes that is what I'm thinking too
22:57:44 <ehird> also not that I know of
22:59:08 <AnMaster> !bfjoust Göta_kanal >+<(-)*10000000000000
22:59:11 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_G__ta_kanal: 44.0
22:59:49 <Deewiant> Try dropping off the 8 extra zeroes
23:00:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would change randomness.
23:00:21 <AnMaster> !bfjoust Göta_älv >+<(-)*100000
23:00:24 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_G__ta___lv: 40.0
23:00:55 <AnMaster> GregorR, Linux handles unicode filanames just fine
23:01:03 <ehird> Deewiant: non-alphanumeric -> _
23:01:17 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_is-that-so: 0.2
23:01:17 <myndzi> i'm pretty sure i can't even read this
23:01:28 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_is_that_so: 0.2
23:01:37 <Deewiant> I guess you can count - as numeric
23:01:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Not giving a shit about non-ASCII inputs win.
23:01:46 <nescience> maybe manual expansion for part of that
23:01:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it probably depends on the filesystem
23:01:58 <GregorR-L> <ehird> AnMaster: Not giving a shit about non-ASCII inputs win. // yes
23:02:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: it probably depends on the filesystem <-- I assume he isn't using FAT...
23:02:29 <GregorR-L> I whitelist rather than blacklist.
23:02:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, US centric bastard! :P
23:02:41 <nescience> or rather i overflowed your buffer
23:03:27 <ehird> GregorR-L is a USian.
23:03:44 <ehird> But anyone who says that English is only in England and the USA is an idiot.
23:03:52 <ehird> Or lives in a country with a terrible curriculum.
23:03:55 <AnMaster> !bfjoust The Colour of Mälaren >+>+<<(-)*10000000000000
23:03:58 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_The: 36.5
23:04:01 <AnMaster> !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren >+>+<<(-)*10000000000000
23:04:04 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 38.9
23:04:09 <AnMaster> !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren >+>+<(-)*10000000000000
23:04:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Also: café is an english word.
23:04:13 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 44.9
23:04:15 <ehird> You can't represent it in ASCII.
23:04:20 <ehird> So not exactly English-centric.
23:04:35 <AnMaster> I think that makes some of them not reach the flag cell
23:04:53 <nescience> what i had in mind won't work anyway
23:05:24 <nescience> to take care of both polarities of the waiting scripts
23:05:39 <nescience> i'll have to do it a different way after all
23:06:06 <AnMaster> !bfjoust Östersjöns_vågor >+>+<(-++-)*10000000000000
23:06:09 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster___stersj__ns_v__gor: 39.4
23:06:18 <AnMaster> !bfjoust Östersjöns_vågor >+>+<(-+-++)*10000000000000
23:06:19 <nescience> also, is that more tying bullshit at the top there?
23:06:22 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster___stersj__ns_v__gor: 49.1
23:06:56 <AnMaster> I don't aim for anything more than draw
23:07:32 <ehird> They're not called confusers.
23:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. They trap the opposite program and aim for a draw
23:07:36 <ehird> They're not called confusers.
23:07:38 <nescience> more like submitting the same thing under 5 names
23:07:52 <AnMaster> nescience, there are important differences
23:08:19 <nescience> and ties need to be nuked out of this scoring system
23:08:24 <AnMaster> nescience, ... so why do they manage differently bad
23:08:53 <nescience> or rather, put it back to wins ties losses for score
23:09:01 <nescience> none of this getting points for tying things that get points
23:09:20 <ehird> nescience: my NEW CONTEST INFRASTRUCTURE WILL HANDLE THAT! Also before AnMaster lynches me I'm fucking kidding, okay?
23:09:30 <ehird> nescience: if you want a PONY that can be ARRANGED also
23:09:32 <AnMaster> nescience, you just hate them because that sucky program of yours got kicked out
23:09:39 <ehird> AnMaster: stop being a retard.
23:09:51 <ehird> EHIRD: PROBLEM SOLVER
23:10:03 <nescience> both of my programs are near the top
23:10:03 <AnMaster> nescience, ah I mixed you up with someone else
23:10:19 <nescience> just don't submit it under 10 forms so that they only stay on the hill because of the scoring exploit
23:10:38 <ehird> the bloody hill is alight with draws of all of AnMaster's 57 programs
23:10:41 <AnMaster> nescience, you can see that some of the mad changers work on the flag cell, while some doesn't
23:10:52 <ehird> There's a reason you can resubmit under the same name.
23:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to keep the best one.
23:11:17 <ehird> .................................
23:11:22 <AnMaster> anyway. Just fucking beat them and the issue is solved
23:11:25 <ehird> So... resubmit... the best one... at the end.
23:11:42 <AnMaster> ehird, as if I would remember it by then
23:11:48 <nescience> well i guess by that logic, i should just submit 10 variants of slowrush and knock everything off the hill
23:11:52 <AnMaster> | 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 | score | pts | program
23:11:52 <AnMaster> 0 | 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 - | 44.6 | -3 | AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren.bfjoust
23:11:58 <nescience> the thing is your programs ARE getting "just fucking beaten"
23:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I forgot, YOU ONLY HAVE 3 FUCKING LINES OF BACKLOG?
23:12:11 <ehird> So you can't just go into the previous lines and pick out the best one?
23:12:16 <ehird> Might be time to get a better IRC client.
23:12:19 <AnMaster> nescience, ties being +/- 0 seems sane
23:12:24 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`9\0\#x_$$#;,_@>\,3k09a+-0x
23:12:26 <AnMaster> nescience, which one would win from it
23:12:52 <nescience> my suggestion is simply to keep a small number of entries per idea
23:12:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what were you trying to do...
23:13:29 <AnMaster> nescience, About the ties I mean
23:13:41 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x
23:13:42 <EgoBot> özyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba
23:13:43 <AnMaster> 15 | + + + + - - - - + + - + + - + 0 - + - - | 51.5 | 1 | impomatic_mirage.bfjoust
23:13:45 <AnMaster> 20 | + + - - - + + - + - + - + + + + - + + - | 61.5 | 4 | nescience_shade.bfjoust
23:14:22 <AnMaster> nescience, anyway go complain about ehird's polarity ones instead
23:14:33 <ehird> Wow, AnMaster is really easy to wind up for hours
23:14:37 <AnMaster> that is where I got the idea in the first place
23:14:39 <ehird> I may start a hill.
23:14:44 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "öäåzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x
23:14:44 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå
23:14:53 <ehird> The "wind up AnMaster a lot" hill.
23:14:59 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "åzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`a\0\#x_$$:#;,_@>\,3k0aa+-0x
23:14:59 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå
23:15:15 <AnMaster> 15 | + + + + - - - - + + - + + - + 0 - + - - | 51.5 | 1 | impomatic_mirage.bfjoust
23:15:24 <AnMaster> it has no issues with either of mine
23:15:31 <nescience> AnMaster: because it's more interesting to learn than it is to spam the hill
23:16:04 <AnMaster> nescience, as I said. I once ehird stops with those polarity ones I may consider continuing this discussion
23:16:22 <ehird> You're batshit insane. I haven't done a polarity one for ages, and also my polarity switchers tend to do badly.
23:16:23 <nescience> his shit is annoying too, and i called him on it
23:16:28 <nescience> but at least it's only 2 entries, not 5
23:16:28 <ehird> Also, I've stopped now.
23:16:40 <ehird> And mine don't just draw with each other to stay on the hill 4eva and eva.
23:16:44 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "åzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x
23:16:44 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzå
23:16:47 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "öååzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x
23:16:48 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzååö
23:16:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how comes your maglev wins against my confusers?
23:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: also, didn't anyone ever tell you in school "two wrongs don't make a right"?
23:17:01 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "öååzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcbaabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzåäö">:#;288**1-`b\0\#x_$$:2j;,_@>\,3k0ab+-0x
23:17:01 <EgoBot> öäåzyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcbaabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzååö
23:17:04 <AnMaster> (or whatever ehird wants to call them)
23:17:06 <ehird> or does that not apply to swedish people or sth
23:17:17 <Deewiant> Whee, UTF-8 string output in Befunge-98, only works for the BMP
23:17:18 <ehird> also AnMaster i thought you didn't like warring program games.
23:17:23 <ais523> latest update on zzo38's version of BF Joust: apparently he's trying to mix it with poker
23:17:40 <nescience> has he come up with a card that's worthwhile yet?
23:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm interested however in seeing "how can you break the systeme"
23:18:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Go try and break Freenode then. That way, we don't have to deal with you being a dick and breaking shit for the rest of us, because we won't be able to hear you.
23:18:12 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems to be a general pastime of this entire channel
23:18:22 <ehird> ais523: generally we put things back afterwards.
23:18:24 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. Why do you think I'm here
23:18:25 <ais523> which is why bringing bots here tends to be at the peril of the bot concerned
23:18:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Which you have not don.
23:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't see what there is to put back
23:19:02 <ehird> Getting rid of your 57 minor variations on the same bloody program that are clogging the hill?
23:19:23 <ehird> Do you do this on purpose?
23:19:26 <AnMaster> and why not make programs that beat it
23:19:39 <ehird> Because they are getting beaten.
23:19:45 <AnMaster> it seems that ties are indeed overrated
23:20:14 <ehird> So you just want to leave us wading in a shit hill that we can't play on properly because you don't want to get rid of your exploitation of the bug.
23:20:25 <ais523> ooh, Microsoft has renamed its search engine
23:20:45 <AnMaster> !bfjoust AnMaster_The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000
23:20:46 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hRIu8-oMq5U5Kl6RtgGZAtmoNyfw
23:20:47 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 36.9
23:20:54 <ais523> although apparently not yet
23:20:58 <ais523> still at search.live.com
23:21:06 <AnMaster> !bfjoust AnMaster_The_Colour_of_Mälaren <
23:21:08 <ehird> ais523: that's a different thing
23:21:09 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 0.0
23:21:12 <AnMaster> !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000
23:21:12 <ehird> looks like Powerset
23:21:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 23.0
23:21:19 <ais523> and Microsoft bought Powerset
23:21:22 <ais523> so maybe not surprising
23:21:26 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:21:28 <ehird> http://powerset.com/ ← still there
23:21:29 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 40.9
23:21:44 <ehird> powerset, btw, is pretty crap
23:21:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.6
23:21:49 <ehird> leonid_: oh not this again
23:21:56 <leonid_> ehird what was your score?
23:22:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'd want to see (+-)*10000000 vs. your maglev
23:22:06 <leonid_> the score for (-)*999999999999999999999999
23:22:11 <ehird> leonid_: 50-something
23:22:15 <Sgeo> !bfjoust diediedie (-)*128
23:22:17 <ehird> ()*999999999999999999999999999
23:22:18 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_diediedie: 4.2
23:22:24 <ais523> leonid_: I think a load of 9s overflows the sort of ints I'm using
23:22:24 <AnMaster> !bfjoust maglev_deewian (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:22:27 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewian: 35.7
23:22:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I meant add that (+-) thing, maglev is safely on the hill
23:22:52 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_maglev_deewian: 0.0
23:22:56 <AnMaster> !bfjoust The_Colour_of_Mälaren (+-)*10000000
23:22:59 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_The_Colour_of_M__laren: 23.1
23:23:20 -!- ehird has changed nick to AnMaster_.
23:23:29 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster__blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: 21.1
23:23:30 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to ehird.
23:24:03 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to AnMaster_.
23:24:07 <ehird> What a fresh, interesting insult.
23:24:11 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster__blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: 0.0
23:24:11 <Deewiant> Did the scoring algorithm just change?
23:24:12 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
23:24:20 <ehird> Truly amazing, AnMaster I give you the insult award 2009.
23:24:24 <ehird> My ego is deplenished.
23:24:37 <ehird> I am going to go shoot myself because of how worthless you have shown my life to be.
23:24:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.1
23:24:50 <ehird> Indeed, I would give my dying words, if I thought that anyone would ever care for me again.
23:24:57 <ehird> But my name will be lost in the sands of time. Goodbye.
23:25:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.6
23:25:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 34.4
23:25:13 <ais523> ehird: is that a genuine →, or are you still here?
23:25:21 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.8
23:25:28 <ais523> also, I just noticed control-I inserts a literal tab character in this client
23:25:35 <ehird> This is Elliott's mother, I am sorry to report that he has just shot himself.
23:25:40 <ehird> Please bear with us in this difficult time.
23:25:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
23:25:52 <ehird> His suicide note tells me to call AnMaster a bedwetter.
23:25:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Pics or it didn't happen
23:25:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you are a bedwetter.
23:26:00 <ehird> Now I shall go and cry. →
23:26:01 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols_down (->[-])*20
23:26:03 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols_down: 10.4
23:26:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 12.2
23:26:11 <ais523> ehird: I doubt your mother knows how to type a Unicode arrow
23:26:13 <Deewiant> leonid_: Nice luck with the randomizer there :-P
23:26:13 <ais523> although i might be wrong
23:26:28 <nescience> aw, i think i didn't save the code for creep
23:26:28 <ehird> ais523: It is a Hird skill, passed down generation to generation.
23:26:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
23:26:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
23:26:54 <Deewiant> leonid_: The random only depends on the source codes
23:27:01 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*20
23:27:03 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 22.6
23:27:22 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([-]->[+])*20
23:27:25 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 17.1
23:27:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+]->[+])*20
23:27:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 10.0
23:27:41 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>->([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:27:44 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.4
23:27:50 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:27:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.7
23:27:53 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 29.4
23:27:55 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:27:57 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 39.8
23:27:59 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 19.5
23:28:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.1
23:28:14 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (->[+])*21
23:28:17 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 17.9
23:28:42 <nescience> ehird: i don't suppose you saved any of the code? :P
23:28:49 <ehird> nescience: for what?
23:28:55 <nescience> it's scrolled right out of my buffer now
23:29:02 <nescience> creep, and/or other programs you swapped +- on
23:29:12 <ehird> nescience: just take the swapped one and swap it again
23:29:17 <ehird> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
23:29:50 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (-->[+])*20
23:29:52 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 10.4
23:29:57 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (--->[+])*20
23:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 10.7
23:30:04 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (+>[+])*20
23:30:07 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 26.4
23:30:09 <Sgeo> !bfjoust lols (++>[+])*20
23:30:12 <EgoBot> Score for Sgeo_lols: 23.2
23:31:10 <GregorR-L> You can hg clone that directory to get old ones.
23:31:21 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (-+->[+])*20
23:31:24 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.1
23:31:40 <ehird> hg = version control system
23:31:45 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Eh, they're all hg'd?
23:31:46 <ehird> $ hg clone http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
23:31:59 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: So I can rewind history to piss of AnMaster.
23:32:18 <ehird> The piss of AnMaster.
23:32:39 <nescience> i think i have a vm somewhere i can do that in
23:33:52 <EgoBot> vvvvvvvvm vvvvvvvm vvvvvvm vvvvvm vvvvm vvvm vvm vm m
23:34:10 <EgoBot> vrrrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrrm rrrrrrrm rrrrrrm rrrrrm rrrrm rrrm rrm rm m
23:34:12 <myndzi> because i don't run linux :P
23:34:13 <GregorR-L> You still have to know how to wander about an hg archive to get the old ones though :P
23:34:17 <ais523> you can't reduce the rs
23:34:36 <myndzi> i'm smart, i can figure it out
23:34:40 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:34:42 <ehird> myndzi: you can run hg in windows
23:35:13 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: No summaries on those commits, nice :-P
23:35:29 <Deewiant> Yes, you could have an automated message there
23:35:34 <GregorR-L> I use hg log --removed -p | less to browse.
23:35:35 <Deewiant> Something that'd make 'hg log' useful
23:36:02 <myndzi> apt-get install is simpler in this case though
23:38:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, did you keep the best of those?
23:38:11 <AnMaster> if you hate clogging history so
23:38:43 <AnMaster> defender6, defender7, defender6_parody
23:39:00 <ehird> Their code is nothing alike.
23:39:10 <ehird> Their essential strategy is alike, but yours were almost the same code.
23:39:58 <Deewiant> ehird: Your polarity-stuff is a bit pointless though.
23:40:09 <ehird> yeah, that's why i stopped.
23:40:43 <Deewiant> I'd kill off the defend6 and slowrush flips
23:41:01 <ehird> I dunno, some of them do really well occasionally :P
23:41:16 <Deewiant> Sure, but that's mostly due to the base programs being good :-P
23:41:22 <ehird> !bfjoust the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush <
23:41:25 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_the_unknowable_reversi_of_slowrush: 0.0
23:41:31 <ehird> !bfjoust shade_needs_to_get_laid <
23:41:34 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_shade_needs_to_get_laid: 0.1
23:41:41 <ehird> !bfjoust defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark <
23:41:48 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_defend6_a_parody_or_just_plain_ripoff_question_mark: 0.4
23:41:58 <Deewiant> shade_needs_to_get_laid looked like it changed more than just polarity
23:41:58 <ehird> !bfjoust fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil <
23:42:01 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_fucking_termoil_wants_me_to_term_oil: 0.8
23:42:14 <ehird> Deewiant: that one was just s/[-]/[(-)*128[-]]/
23:42:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: I just killed all my ripoffs + one that is deliberately rubbish
23:42:32 <ehird> Which is all the ones on the current hill.
23:42:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: Feel free to rm ehird_*
23:42:50 <ehird> it'll interestify the hill
23:44:10 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper [>([{}-])%5+]
23:44:13 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 27.9
23:44:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, why didn't you keep my best one
23:44:25 <AnMaster> instead of an old mediocre one
23:44:38 <AnMaster> is that really what you wanted
23:44:39 <GregorR-L> I didn't keep or delete anything, I only removed ehird_*
23:44:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh fuck you
23:44:58 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*1000
23:45:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.4
23:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no. I would have been happy if he had kept the actual best one
23:45:17 <ehird> The pinnacle of AnMaster's intelligence: threatening to resubmit a bunch of shitty, almost-the-same challengers because GregorR-L didn't do anything.
23:45:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*10000(>[+])*20
23:45:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 10.0
23:45:36 <GregorR-L> They got bumped off the hill, presumably.
23:45:38 <ehird> AnMaster: They dropped off the hill because they sucked.
23:45:39 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration (-)*127(-+)*20000
23:45:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (.[+]+)*10000>(->[+])*20
23:45:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.6
23:45:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.4
23:45:45 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, they didn't the score is wrong for that
23:45:48 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration (-)*127(-+)*20000
23:45:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+]+)*10000>(->[+])*20
23:45:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 23.4
23:45:53 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.5
23:46:12 <ehird> ais523: you get killed after the 127 -s, probably
23:46:15 <ehird> try a smaller number
23:46:16 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+](-)*100)*100>(->[+])*20
23:46:19 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.0
23:46:25 <ehird> leonid_: are you actually putting any logic into those?
23:46:29 <ais523> ehird: the 127 is deliberate
23:46:30 <myndzi> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ does not appear to be an hg repository
23:46:38 <ais523> the problem is, I can't set up fast enough
23:46:43 <leonid_> defending then attacking maybe ?_?
23:46:45 <ais523> the idea is to hope that the opponent misses the flag altogether
23:46:45 <myndzi> the error says otherwise
23:46:54 <myndzi> unless the syntax quoted earlier is incorrect
23:46:54 <ais523> because it's 0 every other cycle
23:47:05 <ais523> but I can't set up in time
23:47:14 <Deewiant> ais523: I think I tried something like that, and yeah, it's a bit slow
23:47:25 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >---->++++<<(-)*127(-+)*20000
23:47:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 41.4
23:47:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.4
23:48:23 <ehird> !bfjoust antivibration [>[+]-]--
23:48:25 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_antivibration: 13.9
23:48:32 <ais523> ehird: is that designed to beat vibration?
23:48:40 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+]>]+)*30
23:48:43 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 32.3
23:48:43 <ehird> ais523: as a first prototype, yes
23:48:44 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+][-]>]+)*30
23:48:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 39.8
23:48:50 <ehird> ais523: the idea is to find a zeroed cell and then zero it some more
23:49:04 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*20000
23:49:05 <Deewiant> And better overall, too, which I didn't expect :-P
23:49:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 48.3
23:49:19 <ais523> doing it that way round gives me slightly more setup time
23:49:32 <ehird> !bfjoust antivibration [[>]-[-[-[-]]]+]
23:49:32 <AnMaster> <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >---->++++<<(-)*127(-+)*20000 <-- try higher number. You miscounted
23:49:35 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_antivibration: 13.8
23:49:36 <Deewiant> Now I lose again, I wonder why
23:49:43 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the time limit
23:49:50 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000
23:49:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 38.9
23:50:06 <Deewiant> No, that'd be the random number generator :-P
23:50:25 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([([-][+])*2>]+)*30
23:50:27 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 33.3
23:50:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (---+)*10000
23:50:31 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.5
23:50:41 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][+][-][+]>]+)*30
23:50:46 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*128]]
23:50:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 35.5
23:50:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool: 44.5
23:51:03 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][-][+]>]+)*30
23:51:05 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 34.1
23:51:11 <ehird> ais523: btw, a good argument for [-] not taking the cycle to make you win: "[]hey, i've been zeroed, let's react" doesn't work
23:51:20 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([[-][-][+][+]>]+)*30
23:51:23 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 37.7
23:52:03 <ais523> AnMaster: if the opponent doesn't turn up for ten-thousand cycles, almost certainly it's a defence program
23:52:09 <ais523> so switch to a counter-defence strategy
23:52:10 <Deewiant> !bfjoust maglev (>(-)*10)*4(>(+)*10)*4>>-([([-])*2([+])*2>]+)*30
23:52:13 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_maglev: 44.3
23:52:26 <ais523> ehird: if the ] jumps to the [ rather than to itself, [] still detects itself being zeroed
23:52:28 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_barbeque: 24.6
23:52:31 <Deewiant> Now it loses against the original vibration again
23:52:50 <ehird> ais523: I know, but the point is, you can do [] to monitor if an opponent's just zeroed you, and have time to react
23:52:53 <ehird> !bfjoust melodic_fooltool [-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:52:56 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_melodic_fooltool: 12.2
23:53:01 <ais523> ehird: oh, agreed it's nice
23:53:05 <ais523> I thought you were saying that was a bad thing
23:53:15 <ehird> Haha, melodic_fooltool wins against shade.
23:53:17 <ais523> so are you saying you agree with [-] being equivalent to -.-.-.-.-.-.-. in the absence of zeroes?
23:53:21 <Deewiant> ehird: ([](+)*100)*100000? :-P
23:53:25 <ehird> ais523: Well, it doesn't work
23:53:33 <ehird> By the time [] realises you're zeroed, a cycle passes
23:53:35 <ehird> and thou hast lost
23:53:50 <AnMaster> !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:53:53 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 15.2
23:53:56 <AnMaster> !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:53:58 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 23.9
23:54:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow. You're a hypocrite.
23:54:07 <ehird> "ehird, don't rip off others' programs and just change a minor detail!"
23:54:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to delete it now
23:54:12 <ais523> you could change that by making [] take the value at the end of the cycle
23:54:15 <AnMaster> !bfjoust melodic_fooltool_variant <
23:54:17 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0
23:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, just wanted to test an idea
23:54:29 <ehird> ais523: otoh, you could probably make an unbeatable program that way
23:54:41 <ais523> nah, it wouldn't be unbeatable
23:54:45 <Deewiant> Do not meddle in the affairs of ehirds, for they are blunt and quick to anger
23:54:45 <AnMaster> ehird, and it seemed my idea worked better
23:54:45 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_dumbfend: 18.0
23:54:50 <ais523> but the other program would have to predict what it was going to do next
23:54:59 <ehird> ais523: Sounds interesting.
23:55:09 <ehird> ais523: Think I should put that in my interp?
23:55:10 <ais523> not really, it would just be a 1/3 chance of being right
23:55:18 <ehird> I mean, the strategy of []
23:55:18 <ais523> with no strategy involved
23:55:34 <ais523> hmm... it may be interesting to experiment with
23:55:45 <ais523> but I don't think we should change it to default until we look at what becomes possible and impossible due to it
23:55:48 <AnMaster> !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+>+<+<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:55:49 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (-)*63(->[+])*20
23:55:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:55:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.6
23:55:52 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 23.8
23:55:58 <AnMaster> !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >+>+>+>+<<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:56:02 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 18.7
23:56:02 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 26.6
23:56:07 <AnMaster> !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant <
23:56:10 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0
23:56:30 <ehird> !bfjoust melodic_toolfool (-[{(+[]-)%50}]+)%50
23:56:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_melodic_toolfool: 0.0
23:56:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*15(>[+])*15
23:56:38 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 5.8
23:56:40 <ehird> I am very good at being bad.
23:57:02 <leonid_> is it same as being very bad at being good?
23:57:06 <Deewiant> ehird: You put a % where there were no {}
23:57:07 <AnMaster> !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant >++>>+>+>+>++<<[-[+[-[+[-[+[-[+]-]+]-]+]-]+]-]
23:57:10 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 25.4
23:57:14 <AnMaster> !bfjoust ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant <
23:57:17 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_ehirds_melodic_fooltool_variant: 0.0
23:57:19 <ehird> !bfjoust melodic_toolfool (-[{(+[]-)*50}]+)%50
23:57:22 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_melodic_toolfool: 21.1
23:57:47 <ehird> ais523: toolfool draws with vibration
23:58:03 <ais523> ehird: neither contains < or >
23:58:05 <ais523> so it isn't surprising
23:58:05 <ehird> ais523: Toolfool wins against vibration.
23:58:16 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 6.5
23:58:46 <ais523> ehird: so it does. But how? Neither of them move left or right...
23:58:55 <ais523> and I don't think the original vibration suicides
23:59:19 <ehird> It also wins against shade.
23:59:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*8(>[+])*15
23:59:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 14.5
23:59:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+])*20
23:59:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 26.0
00:00:00 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 7.4
00:00:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*6(>[+])*20
00:00:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.9
00:00:19 <ais523> !bfjoust isthata128 (>)*9((+)*128>)*21
00:00:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_isthata128: 5.0
00:00:33 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 0.0
00:00:41 <ais523> heh, it lost to everything but boring
00:00:48 <ehird> lance.c:120: warning: control may reach end of non-void function ‘run_match’ being inlined
00:00:53 <ais523> which is strange, I expected it to beat defend6
00:00:57 <ehird> i wonder what that means
00:01:05 <ais523> ehird: it's like control may reach end of non-void function
00:01:12 <ais523> but the fact that it's inlined makes it worse
00:01:12 <ehird> i got one of them too :)
00:01:21 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*6(>[+][+])*20
00:01:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 22.4
00:01:25 <ehird> warning: REALLY TERRIBLE SHIT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
00:01:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+][+])*20
00:01:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.6
00:01:33 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>[+][+][+])*20
00:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.7
00:01:47 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>([+])*10)*20
00:01:49 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I know what that part means
00:01:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.7
00:01:53 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*7(>([+])*20)*20
00:01:54 <AnMaster> int foo(void) { /noreturn here
00:01:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.1
00:01:59 <AnMaster> int foo(void) { /* noreturn here */ }
00:02:03 <ehird> *wonders if a warrior consists of anything else*
00:02:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*8(>([+])*10)*20
00:02:08 <ehird> I was talking about the rest.
00:02:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.7
00:02:14 <ais523> haha, I just figured out what's wrong with isthata128
00:02:19 <ais523> !bfjoust isthata128 (>)*9((+)*128.>)*21
00:02:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_isthata128: 27.5
00:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, idea: make a program that won't draw against itself
00:03:04 <ais523> also, that beats defend6, although it wouldn't beat the parody version
00:03:12 <ais523> there's no way to break symmetry
00:03:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it's trivial to prove
00:03:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*5)*20
00:03:28 <ais523> the thing's symmetrical and determinstic
00:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.9
00:03:30 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't you make both loose at the same time
00:03:31 <ais523> that's all the proof you need
00:03:40 <ais523> AnMaster: both losing at the same time is a draw
00:03:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*11(>([+])*5)*20
00:03:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.9
00:03:52 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*9(>([+])*5)*20
00:03:55 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.5
00:04:01 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*6)*20
00:04:03 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.3
00:04:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*4)*20
00:04:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 7.8
00:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, with the polarity thing it would be possible
00:04:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([+])*9)*20
00:04:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 23.5
00:04:36 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 18.1
00:04:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*11(>([+])*10)*20
00:04:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.5
00:04:52 <ehird> ais523: how would you handle looping checking the value at the end of the turn?
00:04:55 <ehird> sounds like it'd be a bit sticky
00:05:16 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_king: 4.2
00:05:54 <ehird> ais523: as in, [] works
00:05:58 <ehird> = ] checks value at end of turn
00:06:01 <AnMaster> a bit boring with only two warriors at once
00:06:11 <ais523> ehird: hmm, I'm not sure
00:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: more than two warriors at once sounds fun
00:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to implement it though
00:06:33 <ehird> but where would the flags go?
00:06:35 <ehird> you'd need an N-d array
00:06:45 <ehird> which, though it would be fun, sounds very scary
00:06:49 <ehird> nescience: that's just 2D
00:06:53 <ehird> you'd need number-of-warriors-D
00:07:03 <ehird> so that the flags could be at the end of them
00:07:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I did that
00:07:06 <Deewiant> Each program in its own corner
00:07:13 <Deewiant> They run simultaneously in both directions
00:07:17 <ehird> AnMaster: /old_hd/
00:07:36 <AnMaster> ehird, can you copy it from the old hd?
00:07:38 <Deewiant> Although I guess that you'd have to run it for the different orientations
00:07:46 <ehird> AnMaster: The interp had a bug of some sort that I didn't find
00:07:51 <ehird> I can easily rewrite it
00:08:04 <Deewiant> Since A might be killed by B before it can kill C, but if A isn't next to B it'd beat C
00:08:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Basically, it's befunge-93, but P is p on the enemy's board, G is g on the enemy's board.
00:08:07 <ehird> Hitting @ makes you lose.
00:08:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I think I may have added something to track the enemy's IP
00:08:31 <ehird> And what did you mean?
00:08:32 * pikhq discovered ~/pebble2 today. Good idea.
00:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: That'd cripple a lot of things.
00:09:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it would make it different yes
00:09:40 <AnMaster> you have one program in each corner
00:09:48 <ehird> AnMaster: but BF has a cost to move from one place to another
00:09:48 <AnMaster> for each program it is rotated 90 degrees
00:09:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
00:09:55 <ehird> with befunge, you can access any cell of the board instantly
00:10:00 <AnMaster> so the program sees itself in the top corner
00:10:34 <AnMaster> you can access the closest 4x4 or something
00:10:51 <AnMaster> but other ones would need a few more cycles
00:10:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's worth remembering that values above 16 take multiple cycles to represent in Befunge
00:11:05 <ais523> so simply make P and G relative to the current pointer
00:11:09 <ais523> and you get all that for free
00:11:13 <ehird> AnMaster: it needs to have linear increases as distance increases
00:11:23 <ehird> (it only increases once)
00:11:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what about making the VALUE relative then?
00:12:16 <AnMaster> so P added/substracted a valuue
00:12:37 <ehird> ahh, this code is very pretty
00:12:53 * ehird pats himself on the back for a good refactoring job.
00:12:58 * ehird continues w/ interpreter loop
00:13:22 <ehird> ais523: in [>[-]+] vs [>[+]-], it's always a draw, right?
00:13:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*6(>([+])*10)*20
00:13:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.4
00:14:06 <ais523> ehird: yes, I think a program always draws with the polarity-flipped version of itself
00:14:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*6(>([+])*5)*20
00:14:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.9
00:14:14 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*3(>([+])*5)*20
00:14:16 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.3
00:14:28 <ehird> ais523: got a just-as-simple other warrior to pit it against as a test?
00:14:35 <ehird> as in, you could cycle-trace it in your sleep
00:14:58 <ais523> >>>>>>>>>((+)*128.>)*21
00:15:19 <ehird> ais523: and you could cycle-trace it without bashing on your keyboard :-)
00:15:28 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*4(>)*3(>([-[+]])*5)*20
00:15:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.7
00:15:38 <ehird> preferably something that doesn't make you think "let's use an abbreviation"; I haven't added them yet
00:15:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*64>(+)*64>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20
00:15:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.7
00:16:05 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ((-)*10>(+)*10>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20
00:16:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.1
00:16:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (->+>)*10(>([-[+]])*5)*20
00:16:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.2
00:16:45 <ehird> ais523: err, pitting that against [>[-]+] isn't likely to do much good, is it?
00:16:47 <ehird> it'll always beat it
00:16:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:16:58 <ais523> ehird: what specifically do you want?
00:17:11 <ehird> ais523: just a super-trivial program that's worthy to pit against [>[-]+] in my tests
00:17:15 <ais523> two programs where sometimes one wins, and sometimes the other wins?
00:17:36 <ehird> just two programs that don't trivially beat each other
00:17:42 <ais523> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[>[-]+]
00:17:44 <ehird> e.g., a defense program may always beat an attack one
00:17:46 <ehird> but it isn't super-obvious
00:18:23 <ais523> and I think it beats /something/
00:18:30 <ehird> ais523: >[]? that terminates immediately, for certain
00:18:37 <ehird> the opponent can't reach there soon enough to do anything to it
00:18:48 <ais523> it was meant to be a simple tripwire program
00:18:51 <ehird> you should submit it
00:18:56 <ais523> with an awful-but-might-work defence after the tripwire
00:19:09 <ais523> !bfjoust stupid_tripwire >+[]<[-]
00:19:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stupid_tripwire: 20.4
00:19:14 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.1
00:19:18 <ehird> !bfjoust less_stupid_tripwire >+[]<[+]
00:19:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([]+)*100000
00:19:21 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_less_stupid_tripwire: 19.0
00:19:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.1
00:19:25 <ehird> (fights against [-] which is more common than [+])
00:19:35 <ais523> ehird: err, mine was designed to fight against [-]
00:19:47 <ais523> if it cancels out, you're going to get a draw
00:19:58 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately, won't work
00:20:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([]+)*100(>[+])*20
00:20:02 <ais523> if they go in the same direction, and you're out of sync, you may win
00:20:04 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.1
00:20:09 <ais523> you have to be out of sync for that to work, though
00:20:15 <ais523> so I will make it out of sync
00:20:16 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
00:20:20 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire >+[]<[--]
00:20:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire: 13.4
00:20:27 <ais523> heh, it did even worse
00:20:32 <ehird> ins_t *a = parse("[>[-]+]", "attack");
00:20:32 <ehird> ins_t *b = parse(">+[]<[-]", "tripwire");
00:20:43 <ehird> !bfjoust primewire >+[]<[.-]
00:20:45 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_primewire: 17.6
00:20:49 <ehird> !bfjoust primewire >+[]<[.-]
00:20:52 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_primewire: 17.6
00:20:55 <nescience> won't synch with anything but another plus-wait-wait
00:21:08 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([.]+)*10000
00:21:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.1
00:21:13 <ehird> ais523: stupid_tripwire beats vibration
00:21:20 <ehird> 00:19 ais523: !bfjoust stupid_tripwire >+[]<[-]
00:21:24 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*10000
00:21:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.5
00:21:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*100000
00:21:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.4
00:21:39 <ais523> ehird: there must be a bug in vibration
00:21:40 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+-]+)*1000
00:21:41 <ais523> or maybe in the interp
00:21:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.4
00:21:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 25.1
00:21:49 <ais523> I suspect a double-timeout causes vibration to lose
00:21:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+-+-]+)*10000
00:21:59 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 25.7
00:22:03 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+-]-)*10000
00:22:05 <ais523> maybe because its flag ends up at 0 at the end of the program?
00:22:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.0
00:22:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([++--]+)*10000
00:22:15 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.9
00:22:19 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+++---]+)*10000
00:22:22 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.3
00:22:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([+++++-----]+)*10000
00:22:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 23.2
00:22:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([++--]-)*10000
00:22:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.9
00:23:12 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*6]]
00:23:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 39.5
00:23:32 <ais523> heh, exact draw with vibration_fool
00:23:42 <ais523> I know how to massively improve that
00:23:46 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*6]+]
00:23:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 41.9
00:24:07 <ais523> heh, now the defence programs are eating it for lunch
00:24:14 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-(.)*256]+]
00:24:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 35.7
00:24:18 <ehird> ais523: do you think it'd be possible for a program to detect its opponent out of a range of, say, 5 strategies, then do one it knows to beat it?
00:24:26 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[-..-.]+]
00:24:26 <ehird> just a complex checker thingy, then hardcoded strategies to jump to
00:24:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 59.3
00:24:32 <ais523> ehird: that's how defence5 worked
00:24:41 <ehird> ais523: it's *defend5
00:24:44 <ehird> and it's "defense"
00:24:53 <ais523> except, I think the word is defence
00:24:58 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[>[---]+]
00:25:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 67.9
00:25:07 <ehird> Also, American English has kept the Anglo-French spelling for defense and offense, which are usually defence and offence in British English
00:25:15 <ais523> thanks impomatic for the [---] counter-defence trick!
00:25:16 <ehird> defense sounds nicer, and fits with "defensive"
00:25:26 <ais523> also, 129 is divisible by 3
00:25:28 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([---]-)*10000
00:25:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 4.7
00:25:42 <ehird> ais523: try ------
00:25:45 <ehird> it might do it faster
00:25:46 <ais523> which means that it's pretty fast at beating the defensives
00:25:57 <ais523> and doesn't divide into 129 either
00:25:59 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([--]-)*10000
00:26:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 8.9
00:26:05 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([--++]-)*10000
00:26:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.5
00:26:10 <ehird> ais523: there's only one way to solve this
00:26:21 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([---+++]-)*10000
00:26:24 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 26.9
00:26:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ([---+++]--)*10000
00:26:27 <ais523> I don't mind you submitting your own ripoff
00:26:30 <AnMaster> can you stop spamming those variants of vibration. Isn't it enough to have one
00:26:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 33.7
00:26:43 <ais523> AnMaster: well, they do work different ways
00:26:46 <ais523> vibration is pure defence
00:26:49 <ais523> vibration_fool_faster isn't
00:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, sure. But the faster one?
00:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the diff between ais523_vibration_fool ais523_vibration_fool_faster
00:27:06 <ais523> and fool_faster and fool use rather different attack strategies
00:27:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Hyyyyyyyyypocrite.
00:27:16 <ais523> fool is a very slow attack strategy (deliberate, to fool defence programs into suiciding)
00:27:24 <ais523> fool_faster is a rather fast counter-defence attack strategy
00:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm learned from you :P
00:27:31 <ais523> it won't beat attack programs, but that's what the vibration was for
00:27:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you were the first hypocrite
00:27:36 <ehird> 00:25 ais523: and doesn't divide into 129 either ← what's this supposed to mean?
00:27:41 <ehird> AnMaster: different strategies deserve different programs
00:27:48 <ais523> ehird: the opponent's flag starts at 128
00:27:52 <ehird> ais523: 3 mod 129 == 3
00:27:57 <ehird> so 3 doesn't divide by 129
00:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, that was what mine was all about tooo
00:28:06 <ehird> do you mean 129 mod x
00:28:08 <ais523> because the loop ends >+, the flag will end at 129
00:28:18 <ais523> actually, I've thought up another improvement
00:28:26 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+]
00:28:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 73.4
00:28:31 <ehird> AnMaster: instead of ---, try (-)*43
00:28:37 <ehird> 129 mod 43 == 0, and it's prime
00:28:49 <ehird> 3 and 43 are the only two primes in the first 1,000,000 primes that satisfy that :-)
00:28:54 <ais523> that prevents it stalling to decoys with the value -1
00:28:57 <ais523> which are rather common
00:28:59 <ehird> In[11]:= Select[Prime /@ Range[1000000], Mod[129, #] == 0 &]
00:29:26 <ais523> ehird: that is the sort of thing Mathematica is good at
00:29:26 <ehird> !bfjoust vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[(-)*43]+]+]+]
00:29:29 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 61.8
00:29:44 <ehird> It doesn't do terribly, at leat.
00:29:54 <ehird> !bfjoust ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition <
00:29:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 0.0
00:30:07 <ehird> !bfjoust vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition <
00:30:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_vibration_fool_fasting_because_it_is_lent_mathematica_edition: 0.0
00:30:21 <ais523> the problem there is that the 43 is sufficiently slow that it may be beaten by fast tripwire programs
00:30:26 <ais523> and there's probably one of those on the hill by now
00:30:31 <nescience> i had it in mind to do something like that
00:30:38 <ehird> i could probably get mathematica to tell me what a good way to decrease a cell is
00:30:41 <ehird> but I'd have to implement bf joust in it
00:30:47 <pikhq> !bfjoust do_nothing >
00:30:50 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_do_nothing: 17.5
00:30:53 <ehird> mathematica needs a lot better interface with the outside world
00:30:58 <ehird> otherwise it's just too much rewriting
00:31:13 <nescience> oh great, now we have 5 versions of vibration instead of 5 versions of sit-and-wait
00:31:18 * pikhq observes that suicide isn't painless.
00:31:35 <ehird> nescience: stop being a malcontent, it's only three versions
00:31:41 <ehird> i agree fool/fool_faster is silly
00:31:51 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.6
00:31:53 <nescience> scuse me, i thought i counted 5, but its only 4
00:31:58 <ais523> I'll delete tripwire_fool if you like
00:32:00 <ais523> as it's a failed strategy
00:32:04 <ehird> nescience: I set mine to <
00:32:08 <ehird> so it doesn't count
00:32:13 <ehird> as it'll be knocked off really soon
00:32:24 <AnMaster> myndzi_slowrush still leads... hm
00:32:50 <EgoBot> Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 8.4
00:33:00 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*9((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:33:01 <ais523> nescience: it beats slowrush
00:33:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 42.5
00:33:05 <ais523> in the individual matchup
00:33:21 <ehird> beats maglev and vibration_fool and stuff
00:33:29 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*11((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:33:31 <nescience> though slowrush isn't very defensive, i was actually really surprised it did so well
00:33:31 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.8
00:33:35 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*17((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:33:38 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.0
00:33:41 <nescience> i woke up with this idea and hacked it up, then tweaked it a couple times and it was like whoa!
00:33:41 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*15((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:33:44 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 41.6
00:33:51 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*13((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:33:54 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.0
00:33:59 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*12((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:34:01 <ais523> nescience: I suspect it's because defence caught on so much that everyone started writing counter-defence
00:34:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1
00:34:04 <ais523> it's all about the metagame
00:34:08 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>)*9((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:34:10 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 41.3
00:34:12 <AnMaster> I'm happy were have fewer of the huge programs now
00:34:31 <AnMaster> the shorter onces are less messy, easier to understand
00:34:44 <lament> what does the score mean?
00:34:47 <MizardX> !bfjoust mzx_fool (>)*128[-]
00:34:50 <EgoBot> Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 0.0
00:34:54 <ais523> lament: you get a high score by beating lots of good programs
00:35:04 <ehird> ais523: where good program = high score
00:35:10 <ais523> the opponent would have to suicide very quickly to lose to that
00:35:13 <ehird> so if you keep recalculating...
00:35:15 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 7.3
00:35:17 <ais523> ehird: good program = beat lots of things
00:35:18 <MizardX> !bfjoust mzx_fool (>)*127[-]
00:35:19 <ais523> to avoid an infinite regress
00:35:21 <EgoBot> Score for MizardX_mzx_fool: 0.0
00:35:26 <ais523> at least, that's how I think GregorR's system works
00:35:30 <lament> why is the score for [-] 7.3
00:35:32 <ehird> lament: "you did badly w/ other programs"
00:35:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.2
00:35:35 <ehird> lament: see http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
00:35:51 <ehird> lament: note that [-] goes [-]-]-]-]
00:35:55 <ais523> ehird: i_keelst_thou beat vibration_fool_faster...
00:35:55 <ehird> so (-)*128 is more effective
00:36:05 <nescience> you get points equal to the wins(+ties?) of programs you beat
00:36:10 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols >([>][+])*20
00:36:12 <nescience> and 1/4 points equal to programs you tie
00:36:13 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.6
00:36:14 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 0.0
00:36:14 <ehird> ais523: it beat all vibrations
00:36:20 <ais523> I'm not sure if vibration_fool_faster's defence portion is all that good against everything
00:36:23 <ais523> it was rather experimental
00:36:26 <ehird> ais523: and because it doesn't loop
00:36:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols >([>][-])*20
00:36:32 <nescience> so if you don't beat a bunch of programs, but those programs beat everything else, you can still get a lot of points
00:36:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.3
00:36:32 <ehird> it decrements 128 before even thinking about looping
00:36:33 <ais523> so it seems you have a counter-vibration attack strategy
00:36:43 <lament> nescience: oh, so the score for a program that doesn't attempt to win is proportional to the number of suiciders
00:36:44 <ehird> so your petty messing about is dutifully ignored
00:36:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9([>][-])*20
00:36:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 15.3
00:37:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols >([>>][-])*20
00:37:04 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.1
00:37:14 <nescience> ehird: ha, good to know that works, it was in my mental queue too :P
00:37:21 <ais523> !bfjoust vff_experimental >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(--++)*2500[[[>[---]+]+]+]
00:37:23 <nescience> it's like everything changes drastically though each time i look
00:37:24 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vff_experimental: 63.5
00:37:34 <ais523> heh, exactly the same score
00:37:37 <ais523> !bfjoust vff_experimental <
00:37:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vff_experimental: 0.0
00:37:42 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES // the scores, as people were asking
00:37:51 <nescience> no coding quickies for me till after work
00:38:04 <EgoBot> Score for lament_hello: 7.8
00:38:35 <ehird> The infrastructure is copied.
00:38:37 <ehird> 11 | + - 0 0 0 - + + + + + - - - - 0 + - - | 41.3 | -1 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust
00:38:39 <ehird> [for my reference]
00:38:41 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Oh, I copied that text from FYB :P
00:39:26 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]>)*21
00:39:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 53.6
00:39:45 <ehird> Up there with the big guys.
00:39:59 <ais523> ehird: it's like isthata128, only with a [-] afterwards
00:40:05 <ais523> so it does better against the defence programs
00:40:09 <ehird> ais523: well, the basic strategy is very simple
00:40:12 <ehird> I thought it up independently
00:40:24 <ais523> just interesting that yours does very well, and mine did terribly
00:40:28 <ais523> despite them working much the same way
00:40:34 <ehird> 11 | + - 0 + 0 - + + + + + - 0 0 + 0 + 0 - - | 52.6 | 4 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust
00:40:47 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---[++++[-----]]]]]>)*21
00:40:47 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (->[+][+])*20
00:40:50 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 18.2
00:40:51 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.5
00:40:56 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---[++++]]]]>)*21
00:40:58 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 17.1
00:41:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (->[+-+])*20
00:41:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.6
00:41:10 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++[---]]]>)*21
00:41:13 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.9
00:41:16 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-[++]]>)*21
00:41:22 <ehird> Okay, this is a failed strategery.
00:41:28 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+]
00:41:31 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 22.2
00:41:37 <ais523> ehird: it no longer beats the vibrators
00:41:39 <ais523> if you do it like that
00:41:42 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]->(-)*128[-]+>)*21
00:41:45 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.5
00:41:55 <ehird> Setting up a bunch of decoys worked. :)
00:41:57 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>++]
00:42:00 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 25.1
00:42:01 <ais523> ehird: it usually does
00:42:03 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+++]
00:42:06 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 20.7
00:42:11 <ais523> even though everything has anti-decoy tricks nowadays
00:42:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 10.8
00:42:23 <lament> decoys are slow to set up
00:42:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 22.9
00:42:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 16.1
00:42:57 <ais523> lament: not ridiculously slow
00:43:03 <ais523> and they slow the opponent down more
00:43:06 <lament> what does - do on an empty tape?
00:43:13 <ais523> lament: - on 0 changes it to 255
00:43:15 <ehird> lament: empty cell. 255
00:43:17 <ehird> current i_keelst_thou: 5 losses, 3 draws, 12 wins
00:43:22 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>-]
00:43:25 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 19.9
00:43:35 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>+]
00:43:36 <ehird> I do badly w/ impomatics' programs
00:43:38 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 20.4
00:43:43 <ehird> I don't think I beat any of his
00:43:52 <lament> why does my program with + beat my program with - ?
00:44:08 <ehird> lament: random tape length
00:44:12 <ehird> the change is small enough to be irrelevant
00:44:16 <ehird> myyyyy interp will fix that :p:p:p
00:44:17 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:44:19 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.9
00:44:24 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+)*200000
00:44:27 <lament> !bfjoust what >+[>[(-)*128]>-]
00:44:27 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 19.8
00:44:29 <ehird> tiny increase, so I'll leave it
00:44:30 <EgoBot> Score for lament_what: 21.8
00:44:32 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-+)*200000
00:44:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 20.8
00:44:35 <ehird> ais523: i'm third!
00:44:39 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-++)*200000
00:44:43 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 29.6
00:44:53 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 20.4
00:44:56 <ehird> 00:43 ehird: current i_keelst_thou: 5 losses, 3 draws, 12 wins ← this is 4 draws now
00:45:01 <ehird> but it does much the same
00:45:09 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>>->+<<<<(+-++)*200000
00:45:10 <ehird> I lose against slow rush
00:45:12 <ehird> wonder if I can fix that
00:45:12 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 25.3
00:45:15 <AnMaster> !bfjoust mad_changer5 >+>->+>->+<<<(+-++)*200000
00:45:17 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_mad_changer5: 29.7
00:45:28 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(+)*128[+]->)*21
00:45:31 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 36.6
00:45:39 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.6
00:45:40 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+]+>(+)*128[-]->)*21
00:45:42 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 13.5
00:45:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 12.5
00:45:51 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:45:51 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.7
00:45:54 <ais523> the programs that do well against vff are nested-loop programs and no-loop programs
00:45:54 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.2
00:45:54 <lament> AnMaster: i don't get it, how does that kill anything?
00:46:07 <ais523> lament: tricking them off the end of the tape
00:46:18 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(->[+])*19
00:46:21 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.7
00:46:22 <ehird> ais523: I have 6 draws now.
00:46:25 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[+])*19
00:46:25 <ehird> that's increasing worryingly
00:46:28 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.8
00:46:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*19
00:46:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.7
00:46:33 <ehird> only 4 losses though
00:46:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(->[-])*19
00:46:41 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 20.4
00:46:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 33.4
00:46:43 <ehird> rushpolarity beat me
00:46:45 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:46:46 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*21
00:46:48 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.6
00:46:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.3
00:46:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I find that pure defence can often be improved by putting an attack strategy there after it
00:46:54 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*30
00:46:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 27.2
00:46:58 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 16.2
00:47:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*22
00:47:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 26.2
00:47:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*20
00:47:07 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 17.8
00:47:08 <ais523> that's designed to work against tripwire defenders and other programs likely to be slow
00:47:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 49.0
00:47:11 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 16.3
00:47:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
00:47:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_no_decoy: 19.8
00:47:18 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-])*20
00:47:18 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou -----(>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:47:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 47.6
00:47:21 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:47:22 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 36.7
00:47:23 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou +++++(>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:47:26 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 30.7
00:47:27 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:47:30 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.3
00:47:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(++>[-])*20
00:47:42 <ais523> ehird: I've suddenly realised how well i_keelst_though would do against all the defend6-alikes
00:47:44 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 12.3
00:47:48 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe. But it is too long then
00:47:51 <ais523> it completely breaks the assumptions they make
00:47:51 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (-)*64(>)*9(+>[-])*20
00:47:52 <psygnisfive> DOESNT ANYONE WANT SOME OF MY HOMEMADE BUTTER?!
00:47:54 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 19.5
00:47:54 <ehird> ais523: it barely even looks at you
00:47:57 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes please
00:48:03 <ehird> ais523: that's basically the idea
00:48:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[+])*20
00:48:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 30.8
00:48:10 <ehird> ais523: don't rely on anything the opponent can manipulate unless you really have to
00:48:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:48:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 52.4
00:48:21 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:48:24 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2
00:48:24 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-+-])*20
00:48:27 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 38.5
00:48:28 <ais523> ehird: all defence programs rely on things the opponent can manipulate...
00:48:33 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+])*20
00:48:42 <ehird> ais523: what I meant, was
00:48:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 13.9
00:48:43 <ais523> still, I love the way I'm second with a program that deliberately zeros its own flag
00:48:53 <ehird> ais523: don't listen to what you're opponent's telling you. because they'll wind you up
00:48:58 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[(-+)*10-])*20
00:49:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
00:49:06 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:49:08 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[(-+)*4-])*20
00:49:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 61.5
00:49:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 26.5
00:49:13 <ehird> (just seeing if i'm getting sample variance here)
00:49:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*21
00:49:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 43.2
00:49:21 <lament> Wouldn't a looping memory tape be more fun?
00:49:22 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:49:24 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (+>->)*4((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:49:25 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 50.4
00:49:27 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.1
00:49:29 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:49:31 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2
00:49:32 <GregorR-L> lament: No, you could just do <[-]
00:49:36 <ais523> tricking opponents off the end is the whole point
00:49:36 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:49:39 <ais523> as is hiding your flag
00:49:39 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.2
00:49:46 <ehird> hmm I dropped a bit.
00:49:51 <ehird> 11 | + + - + - + + + + + + - + - + - - - - | 56.2 | 3 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust
00:49:52 <lament> ais523: but this way, the optimal program relies too much on the fact that the field is between 10 and 30 cells. Change the limits, and a different program will be optimal.
00:50:06 <lament> ais523: that's not pretty!
00:50:08 <ais523> lament: the limits were chosen to make the game interesting, though
00:50:17 <ais523> they used to just be "random very large number"
00:50:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:50:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 52.1
00:50:27 <ais523> but that made decoys an overwhelmingly good strategy
00:50:28 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:50:31 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 50.4
00:50:34 <ais523> keeping them small makes decoys more dangerous
00:50:36 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ++(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:50:39 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 41.0
00:50:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*10(+>[-+-])*20
00:50:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
00:50:53 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:50:54 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[--++-])*20
00:50:55 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 44.6
00:50:56 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:50:57 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 25.2
00:50:59 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.2
00:51:05 <ehird> ais523: i think my strategy is nearing its optimum
00:51:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[---])*20
00:51:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.6
00:51:13 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>++>--)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:51:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 46.3
00:51:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[--])*20
00:51:19 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[---]+>(-)*128[+++]->)*21
00:51:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.9
00:51:22 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 62.0
00:51:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*25
00:51:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.7
00:51:33 <ais523> ehird: yep, it's creeping up on vff
00:51:38 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*11(+>[-+-])*18
00:51:41 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.3
00:51:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 52.1
00:51:53 <ehird> ais523: WTF? it doesn't beat you
00:51:55 <ehird> ais523: it used to beat you
00:52:06 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:52:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 60.2
00:52:16 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:52:18 <ehird> 10 | + + + 0 - + + + + + - + - + - - - + + | 63.2 | 6 | ais523_vibration_fool_faster.bfjoust
00:52:18 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 47.1
00:52:19 <ehird> 11 | 0 - 0 0 0 - + + + + + + + 0 + + + - - | 60.2 | 6 | ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust
00:52:22 <ehird> ais523: it beats vff.
00:52:31 <ais523> ehird: I'm not surprised
00:52:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-])*20
00:52:37 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 31.6
00:52:41 <ais523> foes it beat slowrush?
00:52:43 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[(-+)*5-])*20
00:52:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 38.2
00:52:49 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[(-+)*50-])*20
00:52:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.7
00:52:53 <ehird> ais523: nope; I don't even know how slowrush works.
00:53:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*8(+>[-+-])*20
00:53:14 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 35.5
00:53:19 <lament> !bfjoust (-)*128(+-)*500000
00:53:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +-+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:53:20 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
00:53:22 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 50.4
00:53:27 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (-)*128(+-)*500000
00:53:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +-+-+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:53:29 <ehird> ais523: how does it work?
00:53:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 43.5
00:53:31 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 7.4
00:53:37 <ais523> ehird: decoys and attack
00:53:37 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (+-)*20+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:53:40 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.7
00:53:43 <ais523> only they're rather large decoys
00:53:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols (+-)*20(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:53:46 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (-)*127(+-)*500000
00:53:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.8
00:53:49 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 30.2
00:53:49 <ais523> and the attack has fallbacks to detect defenders
00:53:54 <ais523> and re-attack them a different way
00:53:55 <ehird> ais523: well, decoys don't bother mine, at worst it has to run a few loop iterations
00:53:57 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (-)*127(+-)*50000000
00:53:59 <ais523> in the hope at least one of the attacks will work
00:54:00 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 22.0
00:54:03 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols --+(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:54:04 <ais523> ehird: and decoys slow you down
00:54:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 35.5
00:54:09 <ais523> so it beats you by attacking faster
00:54:11 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>([(-)*128[-]]+>[(-)*128[+]]->)*21
00:54:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols .(>)*9(+>[-+-])*20
00:54:14 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1
00:54:15 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 21.9
00:54:21 <ehird> ais523: why doesn't that work?
00:54:28 <ehird> ais523: it should only run its attack if it's non-zero
00:54:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>>[-+-])*10
00:54:32 <ehird> which should speed it up an awful lot
00:54:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.4
00:54:35 <ais523> ehird: more loops mean it's more vulnerable to farmers
00:54:39 <ais523> so you're getting locked in place more
00:54:49 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (-)*127[[+]+]
00:54:52 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 11.8
00:54:55 <ais523> AnMaster: programs that garble the values near their own flag
00:54:59 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:55:00 <ehird> ok, I have an idea
00:55:01 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 58.5
00:55:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+]])*20
00:55:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 37.8
00:55:07 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and like madchanger
00:55:10 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[+[-]])*20
00:55:13 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 33.3
00:55:26 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:55:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 57.5
00:55:38 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*64[(-)*64[-]]+>(+)*64[(+)*64[+]]->)*21
00:55:41 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 37.9
00:55:46 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
00:55:46 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(+)*128[+]->)*21
00:55:49 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 30.9
00:55:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 41.1
00:55:53 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:55:55 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.1
00:55:56 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20
00:55:59 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.7
00:56:00 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:56:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
00:56:03 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.6
00:56:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.9
00:56:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
00:56:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.4
00:56:11 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:56:13 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.8
00:56:15 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
00:56:17 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:56:18 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.2
00:56:20 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 50.9
00:56:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
00:56:22 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (-)*127[-[+]]
00:56:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 35.5
00:56:26 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:56:26 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 13.2
00:56:29 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.1
00:56:30 <ehird> ais523: I hate the large sample variance.
00:56:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:56:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 57.4
00:56:36 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:56:37 <lament> yeah the sample variance is BS
00:56:39 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 47.2
00:56:41 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:56:44 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.8
00:56:44 <ehird> I dropped waaaaaaay down
00:56:46 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:56:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.7
00:56:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +-+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:56:56 <ais523> ehird: you're writing a hill that fixes that, though, aren't you?
00:56:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.0
00:57:02 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:57:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:57:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.3
00:57:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 58.1
00:57:13 <ehird> it should be done tomorrow; I stopped working on it to have fun here
00:57:24 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
00:57:25 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:57:27 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 55.0
00:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.5
00:57:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
00:57:34 <ehird> guess the opponents are tougher these days
00:57:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.9
00:57:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-[+-+-+]])*20
00:57:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.9
00:57:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-+-+-[+-+-+]])*20
00:57:47 <ehird> how does lols work?
00:57:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 31.4
00:57:50 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 0.0
00:57:56 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20
00:57:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.7
00:58:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20
00:58:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.5
00:58:06 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:58:06 <ais523> ehird: a disruptive reducing loop
00:58:10 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.4
00:58:10 <ais523> so it's counter-disruption
00:58:13 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[-]->)*21
00:58:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 48.4
00:58:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20
00:58:17 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:58:19 <ais523> it's reducing the value in a non-monotonic way
00:58:22 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.8
00:58:22 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 55.7
00:58:24 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[+]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:58:27 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 40.1
00:58:29 <ais523> so defence programs that rely on sensible ways to reduce the value get confused
00:58:31 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
00:58:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[(+-)*10+]])*20
00:58:33 <ehird> That is so illogical
00:58:33 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 57.9
00:58:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.9
00:58:36 <ehird> -[-], but then -[+]
00:58:37 <ais523> it'll beat defend6, for instance
00:58:39 <ehird> consistently gets the best scores
00:58:41 <ais523> but lose to pure attackers
00:58:41 <ehird> how is that so, ais523?
00:58:41 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:58:44 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 59.2
00:58:46 <ehird> it makes no sense at all
00:58:53 <ais523> ehird: because it's being slow
00:58:56 <leonid_> why does it get so high score
00:59:02 <ais523> so it beats things which expect it to attack quickly
00:59:06 <ais523> which is most of the hill atm, I expect
00:59:22 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*25
00:59:25 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.2
00:59:28 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*19
00:59:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 33.6
00:59:31 <ehird> ais523: ah, interesting
00:59:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*21
00:59:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.7
00:59:37 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
00:59:40 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 59.2
00:59:41 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*10>(-)*128[+](-)*10>)*21
00:59:43 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 29.1
00:59:45 <ais523> leonid_: go back to the version which was third on the hill
00:59:49 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*3>(-)*128[+](-)*3>)*21
00:59:50 <ais523> and use a different name fo rthe others
00:59:52 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 45.0
00:59:56 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-](+)*2>(-)*128[+](-)*2>)*21
00:59:58 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 35.5
01:00:03 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:00:06 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.5
01:00:07 <ehird> so one is the sweet spot for decosy
01:00:10 <leonid_> i have no idea how my own code works
01:00:17 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->(-)*128[+]>(-)*128[+]>)*21
01:00:19 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 34.8
01:00:21 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:00:24 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 52.5
01:00:27 <ehird> ais523: heh, every change I make seems to worsen it
01:00:56 <lament> !bfjoust dangle (+)*384000
01:00:56 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*22
01:00:56 <ehird> ais523: do you think i _can_ improve the basic strategery? :-)
01:00:57 * ais523 wonders about evolutionary BF Joust
01:00:59 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 43.8
01:00:59 <EgoBot> Score for lament_dangle: 23.9
01:01:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:01:03 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 60.0
01:01:07 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>->>)*2>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:01:08 <ais523> ehird: I don't know, you might be at risk of overfitting
01:01:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.6
01:01:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:01:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 59.5
01:01:25 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:01:27 <ehird> ais523: overfitting?
01:01:28 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.5
01:01:38 <ais523> ehird: it's what happens if you train a neural network too much
01:01:42 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:01:44 <ais523> it ends up perfect at describing your test data
01:01:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.2
01:01:47 <ais523> and rubbish at anything else
01:01:48 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:01:51 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 43.4
01:01:59 <ehird> ais523: how does that apply to this?
01:02:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[---[+-+]])*20
01:02:03 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.9
01:02:04 <ehird> AnMaster: because only the test data gets reinforced
01:02:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:02:08 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*20
01:02:09 <ais523> ehird: a program that beats all the programs there on the hill, but nothing in general
01:02:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 60.0
01:02:11 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 35.8
01:02:13 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22
01:02:16 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9
01:02:26 <ehird> ais523: going one over the tape length sometimes improves me score.
01:02:30 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22
01:02:33 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9
01:02:44 <ehird> ... or actually worsens it
01:02:45 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:02:48 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.5
01:02:49 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:02:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(--->[-[+-+]])*20
01:02:52 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.0
01:02:53 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 36.6
01:02:54 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*21
01:02:57 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 54.0
01:02:57 <ais523> ehird: maybe it's to do with tape length latency?
01:02:58 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++-+>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.9
01:03:01 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22
01:03:04 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 59.8
01:03:05 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(++-++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:05 <ais523> also, why don't you just remove the final > on the last iteration?
01:03:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 34.3
01:03:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 56.5
01:03:22 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4(>(-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]-)*22
01:03:24 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 49.2
01:03:25 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols +--(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:28 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 41.4
01:03:29 <ehird> ais523: because that does worse
01:03:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:32 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4(>(-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]-)*21
01:03:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 54.3
01:03:35 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 44.9
01:03:36 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*22
01:03:36 <ais523> wait, the number at the end shouldn't make a difference, if it's over 10
01:03:38 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 59.3
01:03:41 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*10(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:42 <ais523> because you have two >s in the repeated bit
01:03:43 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 37.7
01:03:47 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:03:48 <ais523> it must just be random tape length effects
01:03:50 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 51.7
01:03:51 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*10
01:03:54 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 21.2
01:03:59 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++><>[-[+-+]])*20
01:04:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 41.3
01:04:03 <ehird> that's a bit dramatic for random effects
01:04:04 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*11
01:04:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(><>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:04:07 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 57.3
01:04:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 49.0
01:04:12 <ehird> okay, 11's a sweet spot
01:04:23 <ais523> ehird: I suspect there's an odd/even interaction agaisnt something that's floating around in the hill
01:04:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-]])*20
01:04:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 24.5
01:04:38 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+-+-+-+]])*20
01:04:41 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.0
01:04:43 <pikhq> !bfjoust ı (>)*9(-)*128[-]
01:04:45 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq___: 14.4
01:04:47 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+++---+]])*20
01:04:50 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.8
01:04:53 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[++--+]])*20
01:04:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.3
01:05:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:05:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 60.0
01:05:13 <AnMaster> please, can we talk about something else tomorrow?
01:05:17 <ehird> AnMaster: no, this is fun
01:05:23 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([]+)*10000
01:05:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.5
01:05:29 <AnMaster> this channel should be renamed joust
01:05:30 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-++]+>(-)*128[+--]->)*11
01:05:32 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 43.2
01:05:33 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([]+)*50000
01:05:34 <ehird> leonid_: noooooooo
01:05:36 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.3
01:05:38 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou (>+>-)*4>((-)*128[-]+>(-)*128[+]->)*11
01:05:39 <ais523> and I was just about to suggest making #bfjoust
01:05:41 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou: 56.9
01:05:46 <ais523> although we'd have to persuade EgoBot to move there
01:05:48 <ehird> ais523: it will die down eventually
01:05:53 <ehird> but we're not talking about anything else
01:06:04 <ais523> ehird: well, #feather-lang exists
01:06:07 <ais523> and it's pretty rarely used
01:06:18 <ehird> ais523: it's a crappy channel because of that :)
01:06:24 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ---(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:06:24 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue >>>>([]+)*50000
01:06:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.0
01:06:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 9.8
01:06:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ---++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:06:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 48.8
01:06:35 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue >>>>(+[])*50000
01:06:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 10.4
01:06:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ----+++(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:06:41 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 44.8
01:06:54 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9.(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:06:57 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 39.5
01:07:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[-+-]]])*20
01:07:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 34.6
01:07:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[-[+-+]]])*20
01:07:15 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.4
01:07:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[+-+]-[+-+]+]])*20
01:07:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.1
01:07:42 <ehird> 10 63.09 7 ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust
01:07:43 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+[+-+]]])*20
01:07:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 29.9
01:07:51 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[+[+-+]])*20
01:07:54 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 32.8
01:07:57 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:08:00 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 60.6
01:08:26 <pikhq> !bfjoust defense! [[.]+]
01:08:29 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_defense_: 13.1
01:08:47 <pikhq> !bfjoust defense! [+[.]+]
01:08:50 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_defense_: 12.8
01:09:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*5)*20
01:09:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.9
01:09:10 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*10)*20
01:09:10 <pikhq> !bfjoust lawlz [.]
01:09:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.2
01:09:13 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_lawlz: 13.1
01:09:15 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*100)*20
01:09:18 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 45.5
01:09:23 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>([-[+-+]])*1)*20
01:09:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 38.0
01:09:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:09:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 58.9
01:09:59 <pikhq> !bfjoust lawlz [(+)*64]
01:10:02 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_lawlz: 5.0
01:10:20 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue ([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*9(+)*20(<)*9)*10([](+)*128(>)*10(+)*20(<)*10)*10([](+)*128(>)*11(+)*20(<)*11)*10([](+)*128(>)*12(+)*20(<)*12)*10([](+)*128(>)*13(+)*20(<)*13)*10([](+)*128(>)*14(+)*20(<)*14)*10([](+)*128(>)*15(+)*20(<)*15)*10([](+)*128(>)*16(+)*20(<)*16)*10([](+)*128(>)*17(+)*20(<)*17)*10([](+)*128(>)*18(+)*20(<)*18)*10([](+)*128(>)*19(+)*20(<)*19)*10([](+)*128(
01:10:22 <ais523> >)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*8(+)*20(<)*8)*10([](+)*128(>)*20(+)*20(<)*20)*10([](+)*128(>)*21(+)*20(<)*21)*10
01:10:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 0.0
01:10:54 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host).
01:11:11 <ais523> !bfjoust anti_counterdefence_glue http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438788
01:11:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anti_counterdefence_glue: 16.8
01:11:22 <ais523> heh, still doing rather badly
01:11:44 <ais523> it beat maglev and shade
01:11:58 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*15
01:12:00 <ais523> lesson learnt: don't attack a construct that hardly anyone uses
01:12:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 43.8
01:12:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*17
01:12:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 51.5
01:12:10 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*18
01:12:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 42.8
01:12:14 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*16
01:12:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 38.9
01:12:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*20(+++>[-[+-+]])*10
01:12:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 35.4
01:12:37 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:12:40 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 59.5
01:13:05 <GregorR-L> In Star Trek, a planet with no life may have trees.
01:13:08 <GregorR-L> Because trees totally aren't life.
01:13:38 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[-[+-+]])*20
01:13:40 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 55.1
01:13:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[---[+-+]])*20
01:13:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 52.9
01:13:49 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[--[+-+]])*20
01:13:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Ah, Star Trek.
01:13:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 46.5
01:13:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+-+>[-----[+-+]])*20
01:13:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 51.2
01:13:59 <ais523> leonid_: put lols back to the version that gets almost 60
01:14:01 <pikhq> So bad, it's amazing that it's entertaining.
01:14:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20
01:14:08 <ais523> and use a different filename for tests
01:14:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 50.5
01:14:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+>[-[+-+]])*20
01:14:20 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 49.9
01:14:25 <ais523> the good version had +++ before the >
01:14:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:14:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 59.5
01:14:51 <ais523> leaving the good one there while experimenting means that other players have better programs to aim for
01:15:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:15:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 55.4
01:15:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+>[-[+-+]])*19
01:15:38 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 51.7
01:15:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+-+++>[-[+-+]])*19
01:15:47 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 46.0
01:15:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 -(>)*9(+-+-+++>[-[+-+]])*23
01:15:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 36.5
01:16:18 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23
01:16:21 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1
01:17:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 ---(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23
01:17:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 40.7
01:17:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*10000+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*23
01:17:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 48.8
01:17:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*100000+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:17:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 22.1
01:17:48 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 (-+)*100+(>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:17:51 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 30.4
01:18:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:18:06 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 31.8
01:19:43 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:19:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 34.8
01:19:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[++--+]])*20
01:19:53 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 30.7
01:20:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20
01:20:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 37.6
01:20:11 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*1000+]])*20
01:20:13 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 37.7
01:20:18 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*100+]])*20
01:20:21 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 35.7
01:20:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+++>[-[(+-)*99999+]])*20
01:20:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 24.6
01:20:52 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*64>[-[+-+]])*20
01:20:55 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.2
01:21:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*129>[-[+-+]])*20
01:21:04 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8
01:21:08 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[-[+-+]])*20
01:21:11 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8
01:21:19 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[(-)*129[+-+]])*20
01:21:22 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 36.6
01:21:24 <ais523> GregorR-L: vff beats slowrush in the head-to-head match
01:21:29 <ais523> just not percentagewise
01:21:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8((+)*131>[-[++-+-++]])*20
01:21:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.2
01:22:01 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>)*8(+>[-[+[+[-+-]+]+]-])*20
01:22:04 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 24.8
01:22:10 <ais523> one thing that could be interesting, but difficult, would be updating the scoreboard to show /how/ each win/loss/draw happened
01:22:17 <ais523> e.g. timeout, off tape right, etc
01:22:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*9(++++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:22:31 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 39.0
01:23:39 -!- coppro has joined.
01:23:43 <nescience> ais523: the bot just takes return values of 0, 1, 2... gonna have to get gregor to change the bot for something like that
01:24:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*11(++++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:24:00 <ais523> which is why I said it was difficult
01:24:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 36.0
01:24:19 <GregorR-L> The point is, not the bot itself, just stuff it runs.
01:24:34 <nescience> i saw earlier you say something about it going off the return values, but if not then even better
01:24:49 <ais523> GregorR-L: is egojoust in EgoBot's hg repo yet?
01:24:50 <nescience> i gotta sit down and make slowrush stop running off the tape vs vibration.. i assume that's what it's doing at least
01:25:18 <nescience> ais523: what commanad are you typing? i just get an error :\
01:25:32 <ais523> nescience: "hg update"
01:25:53 <ais523> ooh, I forgot to pull...
01:26:09 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
01:26:17 <GregorR-L> That's the correct URL to the source for EgoBot itself.
01:26:35 <nescience> i wonder if that makes a difference?
01:26:42 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*11(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*19
01:26:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 30.2
01:26:49 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*19
01:26:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 37.1
01:26:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +-+(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*21
01:26:55 <GregorR-L> I have it set to https so that if somebody gets push access, they'll push to https
01:26:57 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.6
01:27:24 <nescience> i'm still trying to get the bf_joust folder, but it just says it's not a repository
01:27:40 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ you mean?
01:27:54 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 ++(>)*9(+++++>[-[+-+-+]])*21
01:27:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 39.3
01:28:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[+-+-+]])*20
01:28:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 24.9
01:28:28 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[+]])*20
01:28:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 23.1
01:28:33 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[+++[-]])*20
01:28:36 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 31.9
01:28:38 <myndzi> abort: 'http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/' does not appear to be an hg repository!
01:28:40 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[-[-]])*20
01:28:43 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 28.2
01:28:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(>)*10(+++>[-[+]])*20
01:28:54 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 26.8
01:29:05 <myndzi> i did apt-get install mercurial
01:29:12 <myndzi> if i need something else that could be the problem
01:29:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +++(><><><>)*10(+++>[-[+]])*20
01:29:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 37.3
01:29:59 <GregorR-L> Idonno what to tell you, that works for me. You could just do wget -r -l inf -np http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/.hg/
01:30:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*9(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:30:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 46.2
01:30:14 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*10(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:30:16 <GregorR-L> Then put that somewhere and `hg up` next to it.
01:30:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 42.0
01:30:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:30:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 49.8
01:30:25 <myndzi> maybe i'll just try to get the windows version and play ith that
01:30:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:30:32 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 47.0
01:30:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><><><><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:30:38 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 48.4
01:30:42 <ais523> myndzi: it could be an internet connectivity problem from inside the vm
01:31:09 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><<>><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:31:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 0.0
01:31:33 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(><><<>>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:31:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 0.0
01:31:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<><>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:31:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 46.8
01:32:14 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:32:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 51.5
01:32:31 <ais523> coppro: how did the Enigma-playing go?
01:32:43 <coppro> lots of work to do though
01:32:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:32:46 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3
01:32:52 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:32:54 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 45.9
01:33:11 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>>><<<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:33:14 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 44.1
01:33:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+]])*20
01:33:42 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 52.0
01:34:02 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-+-[+-+]])*20
01:34:04 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8
01:34:09 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[--[+-+-+]])*20
01:34:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 42.6
01:34:15 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:34:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7
01:34:18 <myndzi> ais523: nah, apt-get worked
01:34:27 <ais523> myndzi: ah, good point
01:34:34 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20
01:34:36 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8
01:34:40 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:34:42 <ais523> also, why using > and < to nop, rather than just .
01:34:43 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 40.4
01:34:56 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+>[-[+-+-+-+]])*20
01:34:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 36.2
01:35:15 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>...<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:35:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 41.8
01:35:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>....)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:35:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 37.0
01:35:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:35:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7
01:35:55 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(........>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:35:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 36.6
01:36:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(....>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:36:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1
01:36:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(++++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:36:19 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3
01:36:37 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:36:40 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 42.0
01:36:43 <myndzi> the wget should do it i guess
01:36:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:36:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 56.7
01:37:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +><(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:37:14 <myndzi> mostly i just wanted to get my code back
01:37:14 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 48.6
01:37:19 <myndzi> i'm not so interested in keeping it up to date
01:37:20 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +>-<+(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:37:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 47.3
01:37:27 <myndzi> but i guess i can figure that out later
01:37:29 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +>-<(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[+-+-+]])*20
01:37:31 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 35.1
01:37:39 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols2 +(>><<>><<>)*8(+++>[-[++--+]])*20
01:37:41 <nescience> leonid_: you might consider doing that in a query with the bot
01:37:41 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 44.0
01:37:48 <nescience> just so, y'know, people can see what they are saying in here
01:38:24 <nescience> i think i'm gonna make a mirc interpreter after all (lol slow)
01:38:34 <nescience> so i can test things out like that without messing with the bot
01:39:56 <nescience> i just fixed head 10, but it's still screwing up
01:40:01 <nescience> i have no idea what the problem is now :\
01:40:09 <nescience> maybe a bad solenoid, but it'll be hard to test..
01:45:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:50:19 <myndzi> the windows version of mercurial worked fine
01:50:26 <myndzi> i think maybe the debian packages are out of date
01:51:17 -!- inurinternet has joined.
02:01:22 <ais523> hmm... I reckon attack1 would beat lols2
02:01:31 <leonid_> i beat yours too nescience
02:01:50 <ais523> !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+]
02:01:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1: 18.9
02:03:01 <leonid_> making several attack1 clone will pull lols down
02:03:20 <ais523> and I'd have to submit them very quickly
02:03:34 <ais523> !bfjoust attack1_buffered [[[>[-]+]+]+]
02:03:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_attack1_buffered: 20.1
02:04:22 <ais523> heh, now it beats ehird's best program /and/ leonid's best program
02:04:26 <ais523> but still loses against most of the field
02:07:24 <myndzi> there's got to be an easy way to display the most recent version of a file that got deleted
02:07:35 <ais523> myndzi: in BF Joust, or in general?
02:07:53 <myndzi> i'm still trying to figure out how to FIND how to refer to the latest version of th efile
02:18:24 <nescience> !bfjoust creep >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
02:18:27 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_creep: 25.3
02:21:33 <ais523> wow, ehird_i_keelst_thou.bfjoust is down to halfway already
02:21:53 <ais523> and impomatic_mirage is a new entry near the top
02:21:54 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_lawlz: 13.1
02:22:01 <ais523> or has it just always been there, and started doing well, I wonder?
02:22:10 <pikhq> It wins by merit of not killing itself!
02:22:38 <ais523> nescience_shade assumes the opponent sets up at least one decoy
02:32:05 <ais523> clearly, I need a radically new idea
02:33:36 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>([+[+[+[---]]]])*21
02:33:39 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 15.2
02:34:07 <ais523> beats only shade and mirage
02:34:20 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>([+[+[+[-]]]])*21
02:34:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 11.2
02:34:59 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(+[+[+[+[---]]]]>)*21
02:35:02 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 40.1
02:35:10 <ais523> it would help if I remembered to enter the loop in the first place...
02:35:19 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(+[+[+[---]]]>)*21
02:35:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 30.1
02:35:28 * ais523 wonders why that does worse
02:35:34 <ais523> oh, it's slower against a flag
02:35:47 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[++[++[---]]]>)*21
02:35:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 19.1
02:36:03 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+++[---]]]>)*21
02:36:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 23.3
02:36:13 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy1 >>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
02:36:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy1: 50.7
02:37:36 <ais523> heh, vff's down to the bottom half of the leaderboard already
02:38:41 <ais523> !bfjoust stubborn >>>>>>>>>((.-)*256>)*21
02:38:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stubborn: 26.5
02:39:11 <ais523> 5 wins, but nevertheless last
02:39:17 <ais523> !bfjoust stubborn >>>>>>>>>((.+)*256>)*21
02:39:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stubborn: 12.2
02:39:27 <ais523> interesting how much difference that made...
02:40:42 <ais523> !bfjoust flagwire_vibration [](+-)*5000+>+++++[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+]
02:40:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_flagwire_vibration: 13.8
02:41:21 <ais523> oh, of course; as ehird said, you can't use a [] on your own flag
02:43:01 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:43:02 <myndzi> that's the main reason for my wiki comment about timing
02:43:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.9
02:43:15 * ais523 wonders why tripwire_sensor does so badly
02:43:27 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:43:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.7
02:44:17 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>++++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:44:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 18.7
02:45:18 * ais523 tests locally against speedy1
02:46:24 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:46:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 18.6
02:46:45 <ais523> strange, speedy1 still wins
02:48:15 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>+++++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:48:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.8
02:48:27 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>++>+<[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:48:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 20.4
02:48:38 <ais523> but still not good enough
02:49:33 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>+<+++++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:49:36 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 19.7
02:49:41 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>+<++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:49:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 13.5
02:49:52 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>-<++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:49:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 15.8
02:50:01 <ais523> !bfjoust tripwire_sensor >+>>-<+++++[]<(.)*48[<(+)*100000]<(-)*100000
02:50:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_tripwire_sensor: 21.5
02:56:36 <myndzi> ahh finally got it right
02:56:44 <myndzi> it's such a good vibration
02:56:52 <myndzi> but now i lose to speedy, must be timing
02:57:02 <ais523> myndzi: you boosted slowrush?
02:57:26 <ais523> heh, and you draw to tripwire_sensor, which is awful
02:57:42 <myndzi> haven't got to that point, tackling one at a time
02:57:45 <myndzi> first, the ones i was losing to
02:58:09 <coppro> this thing should allow forking!
02:58:27 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy_decoy >(-)*5>>>>>>>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
02:58:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy_decoy: 50.8
02:58:31 <coppro> that would add a whole new level of awesome
02:58:42 <leonid_> my lawlz still beats slowrush
02:58:54 <ais523> beh, slowrush still somehow beats it anyway
02:59:01 <myndzi> wonder why it ties to viper
02:59:17 <myndzi> like my solution to vibrate? :)
02:59:18 <coppro> did Gregor increase the heap size or is it another bug?
02:59:26 <myndzi> (current code: >(+)*19>(-)*19>+>->+>->+>-(>-.+[[-++++++++++++++[-.]]+>-.+]+)*20)
02:59:44 <ais523> myndzi: by vibrating a bit yourself to see if it kills the opponent
02:59:52 <myndzi> it's more precise than that
02:59:58 <myndzi> if i execute "-" and you don't die
03:00:07 <myndzi> and then i wait a beat and counteract it so you do
03:00:35 <myndzi> costs me 3 cycles on new cells but it is worth it
03:01:10 <myndzi> me and viper must be getting in +- loops
03:01:15 <myndzi> but i don't see how that can happen
03:01:36 <ais523> your use of 19 for the decoys in slowrush is really clever
03:02:00 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy_decoy <
03:02:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy_decoy: 0.0
03:02:03 <myndzi> 18 loses me lots of points
03:02:07 <myndzi> so i am not really sure
03:02:13 <myndzi> i dropped it to 19 to beat your inverse
03:02:18 <myndzi> that's what i meant when i said cheap hack
03:02:24 <myndzi> just so i was a little faster than you
03:02:42 <myndzi> well, a tie to viper is ok
03:02:46 <myndzi> i reign supreme again!
03:02:46 <ais523> 19 works well because it slows all the modulo programs, being prime and 128-19 also being prime
03:03:04 <myndzi> yeah, i didn't study it enough, but that makes sense
03:03:21 <myndzi> so i wonder how 13 would work
03:03:44 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy2 >>>>>>>>>([-[++[---]]]>)*21
03:03:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy2: 38.4
03:04:17 <myndzi> that resubmission cost me a win
03:05:57 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy2_with_19_decoy >(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>([-[++[---]]]>)*21
03:06:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy2_with_19_decoy: 43.8
03:06:14 <myndzi> i had an idea driving over here i wanted to mess with
03:06:17 <myndzi> now i can't think of it atm
03:06:18 <ais523> !bfjoust ais523_speedy <
03:06:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_ais523_speedy: 0.0
03:06:31 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy2: 0.0
03:08:44 <ais523> !bfjoust monovibration (+)*5000(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
03:08:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_monovibration: 5.5
03:09:01 <ais523> !bfjoust monovibration (+)*5000>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
03:09:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_monovibration: 28.3
03:10:52 <ais523> !bfjoust monovibration (-)*5000>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21
03:10:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_monovibration: 12.7
03:11:20 <myndzi> !bfjoust test >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:11:24 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 86.9
03:11:35 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_test: 0.0
03:11:45 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:11:48 <coppro> hmm... my new program's gonna need some serious copy-paste
03:11:49 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 86.8
03:12:05 <ais523> you even beat slowrush
03:12:24 <myndzi> i guess i'm just good? ;p
03:12:30 <ais523> the strategy of crazy decoys seems to be a good one
03:12:32 <coppro> how do you beat something that does [-[+]]?
03:12:47 <ais523> coppro: defend6 beats that by locking it in place and capturing its flag
03:12:57 <myndzi> ais523: its purpose isn't to be "crazy" but to be thorough
03:13:04 <ais523> or, you could attack and get its flag faster, that's not a very fast way to defeat an opponent
03:13:04 <myndzi> i get "something" on the first 10 spots asap
03:13:09 <myndzi> then something less trivial
03:13:13 <ais523> coppro: basically by doing 128*(+) every 64 turns
03:13:13 <myndzi> and finally something fairly weighty
03:13:24 <myndzi> and then i continue to lay down big decoys, not that it's likely to help
03:13:28 <myndzi> i wonder if i'd do better for taking that out
03:13:32 <coppro> but that leaves you stuck in the same place, no?
03:13:37 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]]+)*20
03:13:39 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 79.4
03:13:44 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:13:47 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 86.6
03:13:48 <ais523> coppro: the other 64 turns, you can go and capture the opponent's flag
03:13:48 <myndzi> well, guess it helps after all
03:14:30 <ais523> !bfjoust speedy2_with_19_decoy <
03:14:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_speedy2_with_19_decoy: 0.0
03:15:48 <ais523> !bfjoust jump >>>>>>>([>>>[[[-]>+]+]+[[[-]>+]+]]>)*21
03:15:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump: 29.5
03:16:16 <ais523> !bfjoust jump >>>>>>>([>>[[[-]>+]+]+[[[-]>+]+]]>)*21
03:16:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump: 56.2
03:16:31 <ais523> 2 decoys seems to be the standard amount
03:16:51 <ais523> and it beats both slowrush and 3pass
03:17:25 <ais523> I can't remember whose idea guessing that the first value is a decoy was
03:17:40 <ais523> but guessing /two/ decoys seems to do better
03:17:43 <myndzi> it's one of the many ways i beat the defend scripts
03:18:07 <myndzi> problem is you can go back and forth all day tweaking and countertweaking that
03:18:21 <ais523> but then you'll lose to programs doing an entirely different strategy
03:18:26 <ais523> most people seem to use two decoys at the moment
03:19:30 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >>+>->+>->+>->+++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:19:32 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 79.4
03:20:02 <myndzi> i didn't catch how many wins it had before for comparison
03:20:06 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >+>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:20:09 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 81.4
03:20:19 <myndzi> well i guess your program isn't worth it :P
03:20:28 <myndzi> i'm surprised at such a big difference though
03:21:10 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >>+>->+>->+>->+++<--<++<--<++<--<++(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:21:12 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 70.0
03:21:13 <myndzi> whoops i had a mistake
03:21:23 <myndzi> what i get for messin around i guess
03:21:26 <ais523> also, jump doesn't do badly against programs that leave a trail of 1s or -1s behind as they move
03:21:40 <leonid_> i will have to really think from now on
03:21:54 <myndzi> i am having trouble tracking pointers
03:22:18 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[---]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 34.9
03:22:32 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:22:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 60.0
03:22:45 <myndzi> !bfjoust 3pass >>->+>->+>->+>--<++<--<++<--<++<--(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16(>-.+[(+)*19[+[-.]]](+)*19)*20
03:22:48 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_3pass: 83.3
03:22:52 <myndzi> that's what i wanted in the first place
03:22:55 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>([-[++[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:22:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 50.8
03:23:10 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:23:13 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 51.9
03:23:30 <ais523> hmm... seems to be quite a tapelength dependence there
03:23:36 <coppro> ais523: do nested brace sets work as expected?
03:23:47 <ais523> coppro: they should do, but I haven't tested much
03:24:19 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(++++[-]>)*21]>)*21
03:24:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 39.6
03:24:26 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(+[-]>)*21]>)*21
03:24:29 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 50.7
03:24:37 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>([-]>)*21]>)*21
03:24:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 29.9
03:24:49 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >+++>--->>>>>>>([>>(+[-]>)*21]>)*21
03:24:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 39.3
03:25:37 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[++[-]]>)*21]>)*21
03:25:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 30.2
03:25:46 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:25:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 19.7
03:26:08 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>>>([>>(-[++[-]]>)*21]>)*21
03:26:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 31.0
03:26:25 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>([-[++[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:26:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 41.3
03:26:43 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:26:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 53.2
03:27:06 <ais523> !bfjoust jump2 >>>>>>>([>>(-[+[+[-]]]>)*21]>)*21
03:27:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_jump2: 52.1
03:27:23 <ais523> that program gets a much higher score if it happens to get a short tape against 3pass...
03:28:10 <myndzi> right, because it gets a lucky win and all the points from beating 3pass
03:28:23 <myndzi> where's ehird with his exhaustive search interpreter
03:28:29 <ais523> I wonder what the tape range in which jump2 beats 3pass is?
03:28:31 <ais523> more or less than half?
03:28:43 <myndzi> that's just the reason for the point boost is all
03:29:51 <leonid_> lawlz beat slowrush and 3pass
03:30:06 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20
03:30:09 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 34.3
03:31:04 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20
03:31:07 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 49.6
03:31:38 <myndzi> seems to mostly get outraced
03:32:02 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*128(-.)*128(++.)*128(--.)*128>)*20])*20
03:32:05 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 43.2
03:32:15 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256>)*20])*20
03:32:17 <ais523> I like the way speedy1 is doing so well
03:32:18 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 39.3
03:32:22 <ais523> because everyone's trying complicated stuff
03:32:32 <myndzi> most of my ideas have been pretty simple :P
03:32:36 <myndzi> but possibly inelegant
03:32:41 <myndzi> i agree that elegant simplicity is awesome
03:32:49 <ais523> wow, vibration_fool_faster just died
03:32:58 <ais523> from second to last in just a few hours
03:33:01 <myndzi> sorry for including vibration killers in everything
03:33:16 <ais523> myndzi: I don't mind, it'll just make them easier to kill with my other programs
03:33:27 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(-)*128(+.)*256(-.)*256(++.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20
03:33:29 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 49.3
03:33:39 <leonid_> i don't know why my code works
03:33:39 <myndzi> i gotta stop giving leonid points
03:33:46 <leonid_> all I do is changing constants
03:33:46 <myndzi> time to work on beating lols
03:36:04 <coppro> anyone have somewhere I can upload my awful program?
03:37:24 <ais523> coppro: use a pastebin?
03:37:39 <coppro> can egobot handle that?
03:37:53 <ais523> pastebin.ca has raw links
03:37:57 <ais523> so it's a good one to use with egobot
03:38:47 <ais523> click on the raw link over the left
03:38:51 <ais523> after you've pasted your program
03:39:08 <coppro> !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438923
03:39:11 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_awful: 0.0
03:39:18 <ais523> coppro: there's probably a syntax error
03:39:31 <myndzi> 16 | + 0 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 97.2 | 18 | myndzi_3pass.bfjoust
03:39:36 <myndzi> god damn i've come so close to 100 points so many times
03:39:55 <ais523> it's on the first line...
03:40:00 <ais523> that should be (+)*128
03:40:22 <ais523> because they're different operations
03:40:42 <coppro> !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438923
03:40:45 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_awful: 0.0
03:40:50 <coppro> but the {} should provide sufficient delimiting
03:40:50 <ais523> coppro: that's the same link
03:41:07 <coppro> !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438924
03:41:11 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_awful: 0.0
03:41:13 <ais523> well, I wrote the original parser at 3am
03:41:38 <coppro> the parens balance, I know that
03:41:58 <ais523> coppro: I just pointed out your error
03:42:04 <ais523> also, what a massive program!
03:42:12 <ais523> I might do a longer one, though
03:42:23 <ais523> as I've decided to make an all-new-improved version of defence6
03:42:31 <coppro> !bfjoust awful http://pastebin.ca/raw/1438930
03:42:34 <EgoBot> Score for coppro_awful: 18.9
03:42:42 <ais523> that attacks more loops than just [-] and [+]
03:43:29 <myndzi> i need a local interpreter to try and see why i'm tying
03:43:32 <myndzi> but that's ok i'll take the score
03:44:24 <leonid_> agj4i !@#%$!@#$@! !@#$@#$!@
03:51:21 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(+)*128(+.)*256(++.)*256>)*20])*20
03:51:24 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 38.2
03:51:33 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256(-.)*256>)*20])*20
03:51:36 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 42.1
03:51:40 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256(--.)*256>)*20])*20
03:51:43 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 34.6
03:51:50 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*128(-.)*256>)*20])*20
03:51:53 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 23.8
03:52:01 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-)*256(-.)*512>)*20])*20
03:52:04 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 44.9
03:52:24 <myndzi> !bfjoust keke2 ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(--+)*256(-.)*512>)*20])*20
03:52:27 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_keke2: 33.8
03:59:16 <coppro> ais523: in enigma, how do you get past a window?
03:59:47 <ais523> coppro: hit it at a medium speed
03:59:51 <ais523> too slow = it doesn't break
03:59:54 <ais523> too fast = you break too
04:04:34 <myndzi> keke2's doin alright too lol
04:04:40 <myndzi> i stopped codespamming the window
04:04:51 <myndzi> but last revision: ->>>>>>>>>(>[(-.+(-.)*256(+.)*256>)*20])*20
04:05:10 <myndzi> turns out i was experimenting with timing attacks that were unnecessary
04:05:19 <myndzi> just needed to be sure to sit on 0 two turns
04:06:45 <myndzi> leonid_: you realize your code doesn't even make sense right? :P
04:06:52 <myndzi> you're setting a "decoy" on your flag
04:07:05 <myndzi> and 37 iterations of > will be more than enough to run you off the edge
04:07:27 <leonid_> i'm trying to get some luck
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04:57:24 <myndzi> i accidentally pasted slowrush on the end of 3pass and it improved its score
04:57:40 <myndzi> even though it should have gone off the end
05:03:34 <myndzi> but if i change keke to 21 instead of 20 it loses points
05:04:04 <myndzi> probably different counts at the start
05:07:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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05:08:57 <ais523> aha, I just figured out why apparently pointless changes to a program can change its win percentage
05:09:08 <ais523> it seems that the random-number generator is seeded with hashes of the programs
05:09:19 <leonid_> that's what i was exploiting
05:09:25 <myndzi> i've been watching leonid twiddle dots for a while
05:09:33 <myndzi> who in their right mind would do that though
05:09:37 <myndzi> what happened to randomize timer
05:10:04 <myndzi> that'll definitely have to be fixed
05:11:22 <leonid_> lol putting a ',' boosts my point
05:14:08 <leonid_> you should fix this quickly to prevent me to get a high rank :p
05:14:21 <myndzi> he can't fix it, it's GregorR-L's bot
05:14:32 <myndzi> also it looks like no matter how much you randomize it you can't get #1
05:14:40 <myndzi> at some point there's nothing you can do ;)
05:15:02 <myndzi> but at least i can stop trying to fix the "bugs" that are earning me losses, heh
05:15:13 <myndzi> at this point i'm not quite sure what the original program was supposed to be
05:15:19 <leonid_> .....,,,,,(>(-)*18)*9([(-)*22[+]]>)*18
05:15:43 <myndzi> now a real exploit would be
05:16:04 <myndzi> >>>>>>>>>>(-)*128and a bunch of text here to tweak the hash so they all come out exactly in the right spot
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05:29:40 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*128)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
05:29:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 48.5
05:29:44 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
05:29:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 37.6
05:29:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*50000(-)*50000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000(>)*8(>(-.)*128)*20
05:29:51 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 37.8
05:29:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
05:29:55 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 26.0
05:31:26 <myndzi> which does you no good as we have learned :P
05:31:53 <myndzi> apparently the RNG is based on hashed program contents
05:32:03 <myndzi> so no matter how many times you submit it, if you don't change it, you'll get the same results
05:32:04 <Patashu> you always get the same result
05:32:10 <Patashu> but these programs weren't on the hill until just then
05:32:22 <myndzi> oh, when you said 'cycling' i thought you meant something else
05:32:37 <Patashu> it's the cycle of get pushed off when hill is unfavourable, wait, push onto hill when favourable
05:32:53 <myndzi> how about the cycle of write a program that doesn't get pushed off as easy ;)
05:33:03 <myndzi> though to be fair, there was some fuckery earlier that probably knocked things off
05:33:08 <Patashu> comes some time after I just step into the door :P
05:33:29 <myndzi> eh, a bunch of duplicates that were getting all ties
05:33:35 <leonid_> the RNG being based on hash values
05:33:43 <myndzi> the scoring placed them mid-hill so i'm sure a number of things that actually .. i dunno, played, got knocked off
05:33:45 <leonid_> like my code becoming rank 2
05:33:47 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ....,,,,(>(-)*18)*9(>[-[+]])*18
05:33:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 75.6
05:34:18 <Patashu> you made code that works best for a certain field length
05:34:28 <Patashu> then kept trying trivial permutations until it got that field length when it needed it?
05:35:01 <Patashu> word on the street is that it's being rewritten to run with all 21 lengths, then with one of the program's polarity flipped, then the remaining 21 lengths
05:35:48 <myndzi> yeah, that'll really change the current game, hopefully make it more stable
05:35:53 <myndzi> and more focused on writing code
05:38:46 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:38:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 45.6
05:38:57 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:00 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 40.8
05:39:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 16.4
05:39:06 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:09 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 12.3
05:39:14 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:17 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 13.3
05:39:18 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-].-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:22 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 9.3
05:39:31 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-][+]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 24.2
05:39:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]-[+]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 20.9
05:39:48 <Patashu> why are all these permutations so BAD ARGH
05:39:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++)*8(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:39:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 42.1
05:41:23 <leonid_> i'm doing hashing stuff with lols
05:41:28 <leonid_> and not caring about 2 and 3
05:42:16 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>(+)*8)(>(-)*8)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:42:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 0.0
05:42:29 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>(+)*8>(-)*8)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:42:33 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 36.6
05:42:49 <Patashu> because now it doesn't beat lols
05:42:56 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>++>--)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:42:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 42.2
05:43:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>+++>---)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:43:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 44.1
05:43:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>--->+++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:43:31 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 50.2
05:44:04 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:44:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 51.9
05:44:55 <Patashu> why is [+[-]] so effective?
05:44:58 <Patashu> we need some bf joust science in here
05:45:26 <myndzi> because it's reasonably fast and skips small decoys
05:46:50 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:46:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 5.9
05:46:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:46:58 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 45.7
05:47:04 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 16.7
05:47:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].+])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 17.4
05:47:23 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-].-])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:26 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 12.9
05:47:27 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:30 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 55.9
05:47:46 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*17[+[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 33.4
05:47:53 <Patashu> !bfjoust lolscounter (>---->++++)*4(>(+)*18[[-]..])*21(+)*1024(-)*1024(+-)*1024(-+)*1024
05:47:54 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439042
05:47:56 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lolscounter: 61.4
05:48:08 <ais523> why don't I get a score?
05:48:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9: 46.1
05:48:12 <myndzi> yep, i'm totally not going to bother with this until the random gets fixed
05:48:28 <Patashu> the defends work by waiting until your flag is under attack
05:48:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(>(-)*18)*9(>[-[+]])*18
05:48:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 64.8
05:48:37 <Patashu> then going back and forth and attacking the other side of the map while keeping your flag off 0?
05:49:15 <ais523> my program beats keke2, slowrush, lols, and lols3
05:49:23 <ais523> it's beaten 3pass too, in my tests at home
05:49:29 <ais523> just it doesn't on short tapes
05:49:32 <psygnisfive> nevermind. this is all completely ridiculous. :P
05:49:42 <Patashu> we are the philosopher god kings of bfjoust
05:49:46 <Patashu> you just can't comphrend our genius
05:49:54 <myndzi> well, obviously since i don't have a local interpreter and have only been using the bot
05:50:01 <leonid_> you spelled comprehend wrong
05:50:04 <myndzi> it would seem that my optimizations are probably crap
05:50:18 <Patashu> you can do a lot of it with just thought experiments
05:50:19 <myndzi> since they're more likely randomness exploits
05:50:24 <leonid_> myndzi, put some ','s at the end lmao
05:50:30 <myndzi> i'm not gonna stoop to that
05:50:38 <psygnisfive> especially if you put on thought lab coats and use thought chemicals
05:50:56 <myndzi> i'd rather get points based on the actual value of my code :P
05:51:04 <psygnisfive> everythings better with lasers. ESPECIALLY thought experiments
05:51:16 <Patashu> actually yeah it would be good if it ran every permutation instead of using hash-based randomness
05:51:42 <myndzi> or just use randomness NOT BASED ON USER INPUT
05:51:57 <Patashu> just resubmit the same thing
05:52:03 <leonid_> how about just setting the fixed tape size and revise some rule?
05:52:16 <ais523> I spent several /hours/ on defend9
05:52:17 <myndzi> fixed tape size has a fixed solution
05:52:34 <myndzi> Patashu: the thing about that is
05:52:40 <myndzi> at least the matchups will change every time
05:52:45 <myndzi> with hash based on programs
05:52:54 <myndzi> if someone else submits their program it'll change the results
05:54:28 <myndzi> you know what i mean, right!?
05:54:44 <ais523> Patashu: what are you doing to beat defend9 so much?
05:55:00 <myndzi> but yeah, i was saying it should probably be multiple samplings when i first got in here :P
05:55:05 <ais523> Patashu: hardly anyone else can beat it, you beat it a lot though
05:55:19 <Patashu> it's not like I set anything up specifically to counter defend9
05:55:35 <myndzi> what he's doing is not looping on it
05:55:51 <myndzi> also i wouldn't use that word "can"
05:55:52 <Patashu> only juggernaut is a non-looping attacker
05:56:11 <leonid_> okay i'm going to rewrite my code from scratch without relying on hash values
05:56:29 <ais523> patashu_lazy never hits my tripwire
05:56:59 <Patashu> lazy is a non-looping attacker too yeah
05:57:09 <ais523> I should be able to deal with nonloopers
05:57:15 <myndzi> so is rushpolarity or whatever
05:57:16 <ais523> but only if the tripwire's actually hit at some point
05:57:32 <myndzi> ais523: we can go back and forth on cell-specific attacks and defenses all day :P
05:57:40 <myndzi> i can write programs to beat your defend* series
05:57:44 <Patashu> well that's the point isn't it
05:57:47 <myndzi> and you can modify them to beat my programs
05:57:50 <myndzi> which i can modify to beat yours
05:57:55 <ais523> myndzi: well, defend9 is general
05:57:57 <myndzi> nah, the point is to win regardless! :)
05:58:02 <ais523> it detects 12 different sorts of attack loops
05:58:08 <myndzi> ah, tbh they are sorta tl;dr
05:58:09 <ais523> and uses a lock-in-place for each of them
05:58:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
05:58:21 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.0
05:58:22 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.-.+++)*29
05:58:23 <myndzi> i'll have to take a closer look
05:58:27 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8
05:58:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29
05:58:36 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 28.8
05:58:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+)*29
05:58:48 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8
05:58:51 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-+)*29
05:58:54 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 22.8
05:58:57 <myndzi> i don't know how you can say it 'detects' anything when it's sitting on a [] though?
05:59:06 <myndzi> i guess by reading the aftermath to the right of your tripwire eh
05:59:08 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++)*29
05:59:08 <ais523> myndzi: it has two tripwires
05:59:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 28.6
05:59:22 <myndzi> ha, i knew that word would catch on btw :)
05:59:22 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29
05:59:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 29.4
05:59:26 <ais523> it times the difference in time it takes the enemy to trip the second, compared to the first
05:59:38 <ais523> and by using the timing, it works out how many instructions the opponent has in its main loop
05:59:51 <Patashu> whoops it got pushed off already :)
06:00:06 <myndzi> interestingly enough, i was playing with a counter to that earlier
06:00:06 <Patashu> this is how you use brainfuck
06:00:14 <Patashu> huge unwieldy constructs to solve simple problems
06:00:14 <myndzi> an attacker that tries multiple different timings in the attack
06:00:36 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*256)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
06:00:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 15.2
06:00:47 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(-.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
06:00:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 40.4
06:01:29 <Patashu> you know with the sheer -length- of defend9, shade, etc
06:01:33 <myndzi> oh, that's what the ([)*s are about
06:01:37 <Patashu> I think we need a bfjoust metalanguage
06:01:41 <Patashu> to express such immense constructs
06:01:43 <ais523> myndzi: I did it with ([{}]) first
06:01:48 <myndzi> Patashu: that was kinda the point of ()
06:01:51 <ais523> but despite the program being correct, egojoust couldn't parse it
06:01:54 <Patashu> that only handles one kind of expansion
06:01:55 <myndzi> ais523: yeah, i didn't think ([) was supposed to work
06:02:05 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
06:02:13 <Patashu> it doesn't handle something like (foo)*9(bar)*8(foo)*10(bar)*7...
06:02:17 <ais523> defend9 is autogenerated from a perl script, btw
06:02:29 <myndzi> i'd have done the same
06:02:42 <Patashu> only know visual basic and jav
06:02:53 <myndzi> you know, the idea behind defend (the back and forth) was one of the first ideas i had about this game, and i never wrote it
06:02:59 <myndzi> 'cause i saw defend6 and was like "oh, already been done" ;)
06:03:14 <myndzi> so it's nice to see it work!
06:03:44 <myndzi> the thing about detecting the program loop speed is pretty crazy though, well done
06:03:57 <psygnisfive> guys, do any of the languages you speak say things (roughly) like this: "John is at happy" or "John is at doctor" for "John is happy" and "John is a doctor", respectively?
06:06:24 <myndzi> hm, that gives me something of an idea
06:08:24 <myndzi> but i guess it doesn't apply to defend9
06:08:33 <myndzi> your tripwire sits on the +20 right?
06:12:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 0.0
06:12:25 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols2: 0.1
06:12:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols3: 0.1
06:12:37 <Patashu> suicide is your only option
06:12:59 <leonid_> i lost interest at all after realizing all my work was a cheat
06:13:18 <myndzi> i tried to set my programs back to their 'purest' forms
06:13:20 <Patashu> then we'll all have fun in our liberal utopia :)
06:13:21 <Patashu> !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21
06:13:25 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_matador: 31.2
06:13:27 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29
06:13:27 <myndzi> i.e. the ones that i can decide a reason for
06:13:30 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.8
06:13:34 <Patashu> I'll pop those on to replace your <s
06:13:39 <myndzi> rather than while i was trying to beat a certain program and wasn't sure why it worked
06:13:45 <Patashu> !bfjoust electrictrain (>(+)*10)*4(>(-)*10)*5([-][-][+][+]>)*20
06:13:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_electrictrain: 31.9
06:13:54 -!- nooga has joined.
06:13:59 <myndzi> i'll take those wins thx
06:14:22 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols t(-_-t)....(>'-')>....\(+_+)/(>_>)
06:14:25 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 0.0
06:14:44 -!- whoppix has joined.
06:14:56 <Patashu> btw. if it doesn't parse it's like suicide on the 0th turn
06:15:08 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols t[-_-t]-....[>'-']>....\[+_+]/[>_>]
06:15:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 11.2
06:15:28 <myndzi> so that'd suicide on the 1st turn?
06:15:43 <Patashu> so random symbols are fine
06:15:49 <myndzi> yeah, they are comments
06:15:51 <Patashu> but you can't have () without a *num
06:16:13 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols How the fuck do I win this shit aahrgrgarghargarjgklsajgsgslskarjagrgj
06:16:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 17.5
06:18:52 <whoppix> Thing I was wondering about.. If one has a simple state machine, like f.ex. brainfuck, shouldn't it be relatively easy to detect infinite loops, by checksumming the machines state at the start of a loop, and after each iteration, check if the state (or any state in that loop) recurred?
06:19:03 <whoppix> Might be that I'm thinking wrong, I'm pretty tired already :)
06:19:29 <Patashu> you can make arbitrarily complex work happen within an infinite loop
06:19:37 <leonid_> didn't turing said halting problem isn't solvable
06:19:45 <Patashu> it's not in the general sense
06:20:22 <whoppix> Patashu, sure, I don't aim to solve the halting problem, I was just wondering if detection of simple infinite loops at runtime would work that way.
06:20:40 <leonid_> suppose a language LOL has only one instruction L, which loops forever
06:20:40 <ais523> you can detect some infinite loops, just not all of them
06:20:51 <leonid_> then one can check if a LOL program halts or not.
06:20:54 <Patashu> making an algorithm to detect simple infinite loops or a certain kind of infinite loop is easy
06:21:00 <pikhq> whoppix: Good luck.
06:21:39 <whoppix> pikhq, yeah, I know, input/output blows the whole thing up :)
06:21:59 <pikhq> And that method would fail with +[>+]
06:21:59 <Patashu> now the human is just part of the program :)
06:21:59 <psygnisfive> whoppix: some infinite loops are impossible to detect tho, because whether they exit or not depends on changes that occurred during looping
06:22:17 <psygnisfive> and in order to determine whether or not it will ever exit, you have to RUN the loop
06:22:29 <whoppix> pikhq, not if the array of cells wraps at some point
06:22:42 <pikhq> Then it's a finite state automaton.
06:22:47 <psygnisfive> if its an infinite loop, obviously running it will never end, and you will never get a "no, does not exit" notification.
06:22:48 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439062
06:23:00 <pikhq> The FSA halting problem is solvable by a Turing machine.
06:23:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9: 58.9
06:23:26 <ais523> I decided to improve the detection
06:23:43 <ais523> and also, there's a small change to block patashu_lazy-like strategies
06:23:47 <whoppix> psygnisfive, yes, that was the intention - run it, and then check for a recurring state. If the state doesn't change, and there is no input in the loop, well, it must be infinite.
06:23:54 <Patashu> patashu_lazy is the laziest program
06:24:11 <ais523> although I see patashu_lazy beats it anyway
06:24:14 <psygnisfive> whoppix: its not just about recurring state
06:24:30 <ais523> oh well, I shall just have to wait for it to fall off
06:24:36 <ais523> unless you updated with *129, or something
06:24:39 <pikhq> psygnisfive: No. +[] is valid on a non-TC Brainfuck.
06:24:43 <pikhq> And it doesn't halt.
06:24:56 <whoppix> psygnisfive, well, assuming that we have a limited amount of cells (wrapped or not), somewhen the state has to recur
06:25:01 <ais523> I'd have to set the flag to 128+71 in order to block /all/ strategies of that kind
06:25:05 <ais523> and that would take too long
06:25:16 <ais523> so there's always going to be some amount of changing that hits the flag, but not the tripwire
06:25:23 <whoppix> (given that those cells also have a max value which wraps or throws an error if you try to increase it)
06:25:25 <psygnisfive> whoppix: if you have a limited number of cells, it cant be turing complete. unless im missing something.
06:25:50 <whoppix> psygnisfive, sure, I never said it had to be
06:26:02 <psygnisfive> so in those cases, yes, you should be able to detect infinite loops, since itd be an FSA.
06:26:06 <ais523> so: I lose to lazy, rushpolarity, speedy1, viper, and slowrush
06:26:19 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439066
06:26:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 17.5
06:26:40 <whoppix> Talking about halting problems, has this been posted here already? http://www.getacoder.com/projects/detect_loop_106243.html
06:27:02 <ais523> the loss to viper is a misdetection
06:27:06 <pikhq> psygnisfive: But there are things that don't halt that aren't Turing machines!
06:27:19 <Patashu> I changed lazy so it doesn't beat defend9 but it beats more things overall
06:27:23 <pikhq> ((lambda (x x)) (lambda (x x))) ;!
06:27:36 <Patashu> but it might be because of ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~
06:28:30 <ais523> as is the loss to speedy1, but despite the misdetection it would still win if the tape length were just right, by coincidence
06:28:54 <leonid_> !bfjoust lols http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439069
06:28:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lols: 0.0
06:29:04 <ais523> the loss to slowrush is because slowrush is so slow in reducing a value to 0 the tripwire timing doesn't work
06:29:43 <Patashu> if it's modified to run all tape lengths and both polarities
06:29:50 <Patashu> should all tape length matches have equal weighting?
06:30:08 <Patashu> the case of 30 length in particular is interesting since you can trivially code a program to behave differently for the 30-length tape
06:30:35 <psygnisfive> anything that doesnt halt /is/ a turing machine, just not a UNIVERSAL turing machine.
06:30:54 <pikhq> Sorry; forgot that distinction.
06:30:55 <ais523> and rushpolarity acts different ways on alternate steps
06:31:02 <ais523> so the detection code doesn't help there
06:31:19 <psygnisfive> put another way, the only way to get non-halting behavior is to have a Type-0 grammar
06:31:34 <leonid_> !bfjoust lol http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439071
06:31:38 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__lol: 18.4
06:31:56 <psygnisfive> ignoring, ofcourse, trivial non-halting behavior like S -> S or similar.
06:31:57 <Patashu> or whenever it gets updated
06:32:05 <ais523> leonid_: weren't you second a while ago?
06:32:15 <Patashu> yeah by abusing ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~
06:32:20 <leonid_> i was annoyed that those codes were hash code abusal
06:32:20 <psygnisfive> productions of recursive rules dont halt, but parsings of them do.
06:33:05 <psygnisfive> i suppose that sort of "infinite loop" is possible, but its trivial, and its the sort that is easily detectable.
06:33:08 <ais523> one interesting point is that there are some programs which have hovered at around the same board position forever
06:33:20 <ais523> and some which have been really near the top, then plummeted
06:33:29 <ais523> like vibration_fool_fast
06:33:40 <psygnisfive> but you do need a TM for non-trivial loops.
06:33:43 <Patashu> rushpolarity seems to have relatively good staying power
06:33:49 <leonid_> is vibration a good strategy?
06:34:03 <leonid_> if so, where's dossar when we need him
06:34:27 <ais523> just you'd need to combine it with something defend9-style
06:34:38 <ais523> also, it's more or less defeated by the [+[-]] trick
06:34:53 <leonid_> what specifically does [+[-]] do?
06:35:09 <ais523> leonid_ alternately increases and tests for zero
06:35:19 <Patashu> it goes like this: +, -]-]-]...until cell starts at zero on the turn a ] is executed
06:35:21 <Patashu> then next turn it tests again
06:35:22 <ais523> there are several cases
06:35:24 <whoppix> leonid_, increase the current cell, decrease it until its zero, increase it...
06:35:32 <ais523> but it won't leave the loop until the cell is zero twice in a row
06:35:34 <Patashu> if it's still zero it moves on, else it goes back to the + at the start and goes into -]-]-]... again
06:35:41 <Patashu> ] is a nop except for testing btw
06:35:46 <ais523> so the only way a vibration program could beat a [+[-]] program would be defend9-style
06:36:08 <ais523> but how would it know that the enemy was in a [+[-]] loop?
06:36:17 <ais523> it would have to guess, AFAICT
06:36:22 <ais523> which is why vibration tends not to do well
06:36:32 <Patashu> [+[-]] is pretty optimal innit?
06:36:41 <leonid_> will there be a bf code that wins every code?
06:37:07 <ais523> leonid_: I suspect any program could be beaten by another program specifically designed to beat it
06:37:28 <Patashu> basically if you're on a flag, [+[-]] won't leave until you've won
06:37:40 <Patashu> which means your opponent has to win first OR keep you stalled and run forward and try and win itself
06:37:41 <ais523> so the only thing the opponent can do is capture your flag
06:37:43 <Patashu> which is what defends try to do
06:37:51 <leonid_> then if a person designs beatrank1 and spams it throughout the hill, the rank will be reversed
06:38:01 <ais523> leonid_: but how to spam?
06:38:02 <Patashu> what if it ONLY beats the rank 1 program though
06:38:07 <ais523> each of the spam programs would be eliminated
06:38:15 <ais523> unless they were good enough to beat some of the other programs already there
06:38:19 <Patashu> so it can only go so high on the hill
06:38:26 <Patashu> as more copy programs beat the winner and nothing else
06:38:29 <Patashu> they'll gain less and less momentum
06:38:33 <Patashu> and only be able to fill spots up to a certain level
06:38:35 <leonid_> like a person in rank2 can do that
06:39:15 <ais523> in order to really pull off that strategy, your program would need to beat the whole hill...
06:39:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:39:39 <Patashu> beating the top player is a decent boost
06:39:52 <Patashu> the program has to be legitimately good for the most part
06:40:00 <ais523> I've been jousting all night
06:40:02 <oerjan> seen my Eodermdrome program?
06:40:11 <ais523> interp, or program written in Eodermdrome?
06:40:16 <ais523> the world is sadly lacking in either
06:40:31 <ais523> although IIRC someone here wrote an Eodermdrome interp, but I've never seen it
06:40:45 * oerjan vaguely recalls oklopol mentioning it
06:40:52 <ais523> oerjan: is it on Esolang?
06:41:11 <oerjan> also on my home page with ASCII drawings
06:41:22 * oerjan needs to add a small comment
06:42:20 <ais523> that certainly looks impressive
06:42:27 <ais523> I want to test it now, and can't...
06:42:32 <ais523> maybe I'll write an interp of my own to test it on
06:43:00 <oerjan> it would be even more impressive if it happens to have no bugs of course
06:43:11 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*20>(-)*20>(+)*20)*2>((+)*10[+[-]](+)*20>(-)*10[-[+]](-)*20>)*11
06:43:15 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 68.4
06:43:44 <ais523> oerjan: I like the way you tried to make your words pronouncable
06:45:02 <ais523> Patashu: gah, you pushed defend9 down to fifth by making rushpolarity better
06:45:15 <oerjan> added comment: Note: BCT program part should be at least 3 characters long.
06:45:44 <oerjan> (if the current command ends in 0 and that is the whole program, the deletion and appending of it conflict
06:45:57 <ais523> A much bigger challenge would be to write an eodermdrome BCT interp which was also valid English
06:46:05 <ais523> the whitespace deletion around punctuation was designed to make that possible
06:46:10 <ais523> but it would still be pretty difficult
06:47:00 <Patashu> best permutation I can find is:
06:47:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*20>(-)*20>(+)*20)*2>((+)*20[+[-]](+)*18>(-)*20[-[+]](-)*18>)*11
06:47:01 <oerjan> ais523: my design just squeezes in btw, the 11/1 case uses 23 characters
06:47:04 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 71.7
06:47:20 <ais523> oerjan: 23 /different/ characters?
06:47:47 <ais523> I'm relatively sure it would be possible to cut a long rewrite into two smaller rewrites
06:48:11 <oerjan> ais523: i think maybe if you handle program and data part separately that might work
06:48:30 <oerjan> i do each step in one substitution
06:49:17 <ais523> time to go home, anyway
06:49:23 <myndzi> < Patashu> basically if you're on a flag, [+[-]] won't leave until you've won
06:49:32 <myndzi> i am a little confused as to why [[-]] doesn't seem to do that
06:49:54 <myndzi> the cell would have to be 0 two instructions in a row to leave that loop
06:49:59 <myndzi> but every time i've tried it it hasn't worked
06:52:43 <myndzi> i was thinking possibly so
06:53:32 <Patashu> just to see if the comment breaks it up XD
06:54:01 <myndzi> i don't know, i wouldn't really be able to tell if it works or not atm
06:54:09 <myndzi> i'm hesitant to twiddle the programs i already have because of the randomness thing
06:54:26 <myndzi> it just seems like [[-]] or [[+]] never did nearly as well as expected
06:54:37 <myndzi> whereas something like [-.] did much better
06:55:07 <myndzi> i think i'll wait till something is done about the randomness or ehird completes his interpreter
06:56:34 <Patashu> if we changed the rule of 'flags need to be at 0 for 2 consecutive cycles' to 3 consecutive cycles
06:56:39 <Patashu> how would it change the nature of the game?
06:57:17 <myndzi> probably about the same as my suggestion to have [] test at the end instead of beginning of a cycle
06:57:27 <myndzi> or actually, you could do something like have [ test at the start and ] at the end, possibly
06:57:36 <myndzi> anyway, it would enable someone to sit on their flag and react when it became 0
06:57:54 <oerjan> ais523: a reasonably efficient Eodermdrome interpreter probably needs to be somewhat clever, since the language is based on an NP-complete problem
06:57:56 <myndzi> which would either give rise to a bunch of ties, unbeatable programs, or add a new aspect and some variety
06:58:46 <Patashu> what about loop while the enemy pointer is here/loop while the enemy pointer is not here?
06:59:00 <Patashu> but that was also multipointer
06:59:54 <myndzi> i think that would just give rise to either ties or uselessness at first blush
07:00:02 <myndzi> i mean, what would you use it for? obviously, keeping them from taking your flag
07:00:27 <Patashu> technically bfjoust is turing complete...err, bounded state machine :)
07:00:38 <myndzi> it's obvious that if one can tell exactly when and where the enemy pointer is, and react to it, they can wait until you leave and then win
07:00:42 <Patashu> but you're also limited on how much time you have to do computation in, and the manner of input you can expect
07:00:43 <myndzi> thus you would never leave since you can tell when they are waiting
07:00:49 <myndzi> and so the best you can hope for is a tie
07:01:09 * leonid_ 's brains can't understand the essence of bfjoust
07:01:25 <Patashu> have you ever looked at the brainfuck algorithms page?
07:01:29 <Patashu> most of them aren't directly applicable to bfjoust
07:01:29 <myndzi> more or less; i suppose you can do defend style trickery, if you decided to try and time things, then you basically have two programs struggling to get a timing that throws the other one off
07:01:40 <myndzi> but really it seems like you'd just end with less variety
07:01:46 <Patashu> but it shows how interesting bf actually is as a language
07:01:52 <Patashu> so simple and unwieldly-looking but turing complete
07:01:55 <myndzi> there's already not exactly an overwhelming variety to begin with :P
07:02:13 <Patashu> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms
07:02:40 <myndzi> i think if you want to add something, if !0 or if 0 would be good starts. yeah, you can do it with looping brackets, but to do so requires a lot of extra code that just ends up being baggage to the interpreter
07:03:00 <Patashu> ifs with elses or regular ifs?
07:03:05 <myndzi> most other comparisons would require two fields which is even more un-bflike
07:03:23 <myndzi> just regular ifs, i should think, but hey while you're fucking up brainfuck, elses too
07:03:35 <myndzi> let's also add LT and GT!
07:03:51 <myndzi> sit on their flag and div by 2
07:04:05 <Patashu> nothing that can alter a cell value by more than 1 is fair
07:04:18 <myndzi> i'm obviously being facetious :P
07:04:31 <myndzi> i think bfjoust worked out well
07:04:37 <myndzi> of course if it hadn't none of us would still be caring
07:04:48 <myndzi> i don't think there's much you can do to "fix it"
07:05:38 <Patashu> code in a different opcode every few days
07:05:49 <myndzi> i don't think opcodes is the thing to experiment with really
07:06:00 <myndzi> the framework seems a better choice
07:06:05 <myndzi> the goal, the environment, etc.
07:06:14 <Patashu> the environment of bfjoust?
07:06:22 <myndzi> i mean the 10-30 cells
07:06:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:06:25 <myndzi> or what they are initialized to
07:06:41 <Patashu> I think it would be interesting to make suicide NOT a loss
07:06:48 <myndzi> for example, making it wrap around..
07:06:53 <myndzi> would affect things weirdly
07:07:00 <myndzi> but at least keep it a playable game, i think
07:07:06 <Patashu> extend forever or wrap around or falling off is nopping forever
07:07:15 <myndzi> extend forever is just silly
07:07:28 <Patashu> you could have it sweep back and forth though
07:07:32 <Patashu> go to cell 30 then reverse
07:07:32 <myndzi> make it so once you've zeroed their flag you have to take it back to your "base"!
07:07:44 <myndzi> that would nullify lots of strategies
07:07:57 <Patashu> can't make an omlette etc etc
07:07:58 <myndzi> and everyone'd end up writing huge code like defend
07:08:11 <Patashu> and these would all be temporary changes
07:08:12 <myndzi> 'cause that's about the only way you can limit the number of cycles or keep track of where you are
07:08:14 <Patashu> to see who can adapt to each change best
07:08:23 <Patashu> once there's not much left to do in original bfjoust (should that day come)
07:08:26 <myndzi> better held as mini tournaments
07:08:34 <myndzi> not in place of the existing bot
07:08:39 <myndzi> sorta like some of the corewars events
07:09:03 <myndzi> there've been corewars tournaments held where somebody came up with a unique idea/twist
07:09:08 <myndzi> and people wrote programs to submit to them
07:09:26 <myndzi> they play out, winner wins, that's that :P
07:09:31 <myndzi> the hill setup is a lot more interactive
07:09:36 <myndzi> (and putting it as an irc bot even more so)
07:09:51 <myndzi> there's a lot more spamming the hill with multiple slight changes going on here than it seems happens with corewars
07:10:09 <myndzi> of course, most of us don't have local interpreters and debugging environments to get stuff done in before submitting i guess
07:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:17:47 <Patashu> I'm pondering what kind of strategy I haven't tried yet
07:17:49 <leonid_> how do we calculate sqrt with bf
07:17:56 <Patashu> besides something I need to compile from a higher level language
07:18:08 <Patashu> leonid: it's possible because bf is turing complete but I dunno offhand o.O
07:18:30 <Patashu> I know you can do ^2 by copying a number and then multiplying it with itself
07:21:36 <Patashu> and there's code for doing relational operators so
07:21:50 <Patashu> you could implement a slow sqrt by squaring each natural number and comparing it to the original number
07:22:15 <Patashu> until it's greater than then use the number one before that
07:22:46 <Patashu> and I'm sure you can optimize it from there
07:24:57 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh (>(+-)*10000)*20(>[-[+]])*10
07:25:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 12.2
07:25:23 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh nah arghaurgarubjnargefo
07:25:26 <Patashu> try removing the first > then multiply the last step by 30
07:25:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 16.8
07:25:46 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh (+-)*200000(>[-[+]])*30
07:25:50 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 18.6
07:25:58 <Patashu> just so you know it's limited to 100k cycles atm
07:26:09 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh (+-)*900000(>[-[+]])*30
07:26:12 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 18.6
07:26:18 -!- nooga_ has joined.
07:26:26 <leonid_> bfjoust ugh (+-)*9999999999999999999999999999999999999(>[-[+]])*30
07:27:05 <Patashu> gj it overflows a long long
07:27:39 <Patashu> it ALMOST overflows a long long long
07:28:52 <leonid_> bfjoust ugh (+-)*`ruby -e'p 2**128'`(>[-[+]])*30
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07:30:04 <leonid_> bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<)*20)*10
07:30:14 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<)*20)*10
07:30:17 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 31.6
07:30:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*25(<)*25)*10
07:30:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 32.5
07:30:50 <Patashu> that's an actual mechanical change
07:31:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30)*10
07:31:15 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 36.4
07:31:22 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30)*100
07:31:26 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 27.7
07:32:04 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*29(<)*29)*10
07:32:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 26.6
07:32:10 <Patashu> if you go all the way to the end of the tape with a [-[+]] construct
07:32:13 <Patashu> and it ends you know you've hit the flag
07:32:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30)*10
07:32:34 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 34.1
07:33:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*20(<[-[+]])*20)*100
07:33:36 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 19.3
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07:34:10 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(-)*100000)*10
07:34:13 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 29.9
07:34:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(+-)*100000)*10
07:34:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 25.8
07:35:03 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<[-[+]])*30(+)*100000)*10
07:35:05 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 30.5
07:35:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>[-[+]])*30(<)*30(+)*100000)*10
07:35:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 34.1
07:36:42 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*5(>)*5(>[-[+]])*15(<)*30)*10
07:36:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 55.4
07:37:00 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*30)*10
07:37:03 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 47.1
07:37:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*10
07:37:09 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 62.3
07:37:26 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29(-)*100000)*10
07:37:29 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 44.6
07:37:30 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29(-)*10000)*10
07:37:33 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 54.6
07:37:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*8(>[-[+]])*14(<)*30)*10
07:37:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 37.4
07:37:58 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*5(>[-[+]])*10(<)*25)*10
07:38:01 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 30.3
07:38:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*10
07:38:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 62.3
07:38:43 <leonid_> why does my code always beat slowrush lmao
07:39:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10
07:39:48 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 64.5
07:40:43 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*6(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*27)*10
07:40:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 39.6
07:40:59 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10
07:41:02 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 64.5
07:41:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*31>(-)*31)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<[-[+]])*29)*10
07:41:15 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 32.4
07:41:26 <leonid_> k going to spam EgoBot via PM
07:44:50 -!- olsner has joined.
07:50:03 <Patashu> you know, decoy setup time vs attack setup time is an arms race
07:50:19 <Patashu> it's only useful to make bigger decoys because people have bigger attack setup because people make bigger decoys because...
07:52:28 -!- whoppix has quit ("Verlassend").
07:54:35 <nooga_> Patashu: i've never seen you here?
07:54:53 <nooga_> excemp this day an yesterday
07:55:26 <Patashu> yup I recently migrated here
07:55:48 <nooga_> i've been here (probably) from the begining
07:56:46 <nooga_> where are you from? btw
07:56:50 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*37
07:56:52 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 72.3
07:56:54 <Patashu> (<leonid_> i moved from anagol) <-- same
07:57:26 <Patashu> you know he's korean because he's good at rhythm games
07:57:30 <Patashu> I'm good at rhythm games too O_O
07:58:51 <nooga_> i've tried to learn that script
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08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:31 <nooga_> i'd rather use <sarcasm>.*</sarcasm>
08:02:41 <myndzi> too bad there's no "age" stat on the hill
08:02:50 <myndzi> that'd be almost more useful/interesting than points at the moment
08:03:12 <myndzi> i guess we could always calculate it from the logs
08:03:23 <myndzi> but that wouldn't include replacement programs
08:03:23 <nooga_> myndzi: are you also from #anagol?
08:04:06 <myndzi> anyway, my nick's been registered for some time but i didn't really come to this network until #corewars did
08:04:30 <myndzi> but i've never been in #anagol
08:23:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:36:23 -!- lereah_ has joined.
08:43:19 <oerjan> ssh, i'm here incognito
08:43:52 <nooga_> did you sleep this night? ;p
08:45:45 <nooga_> condols sounds a bit like condoms
08:46:41 <oerjan> maybe to a pole, i hear you do strange things with l's
08:47:26 <nooga_> l in Polish is like l in lame
08:48:22 <olsner> oerjan: the strange things are done to a different l
08:48:23 <nooga_> but it's like wa in watch
08:48:29 <oerjan> yeah if that's not doing strange things with l's i don't know what would count
08:48:58 <oerjan> the poor thing is speared!
08:49:05 <olsner> point is, they're doing it to Ł, not L :)
08:49:57 <olsner> oerjan: have some sour milk, weird norwegian guy
08:50:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:50:14 <oerjan> sorry, allergic to milk
08:50:22 <nooga_> olsner: that makes me think that you're weird
08:50:34 <ais523> oerjan: I'm intolerant to milk, as it happens
08:50:41 <olsner> ais523: I involved it, I'm pouring it over oerjan
08:50:45 <nooga_> it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults
08:50:46 <ais523> not quite the same as being allergic, but it's still unwise for me to drink too much
08:50:54 <myndzi> leonid_: i thought you decided better than to f* around with the rng
08:51:05 <oerjan> ais523: i started reacting to it a few years ago
08:51:28 <oerjan> since last spring i've had to cut it out
08:51:29 <olsner> kurwa is the only useful polish word I can pronounce
08:51:50 <myndzi> my two programs gain 10 and 12 points just for breaking from the tape length you managed to force with your nonsensical program :\
08:52:07 <nooga_> but it's used like fuck in english
08:52:24 <myndzi> you mean fuck as in fornication? :P
08:52:35 <myndzi> or fuck as an exclamation
08:52:51 <olsner> I've been told it's also a cognate of scandinavian 'kurva' (which simply means a bend in a road)
08:53:06 <nooga_> Polish cursewords are quite complez
08:53:28 <nooga_> you can create new oneswhen you need
08:53:37 <myndzi> every language needs that
08:54:09 <nooga_> zajebiście ~= zakurwiście ~= something like awesome
08:54:12 <oerjan> olsner: not cognate, kurva is from latin curvus
08:54:29 <nooga_> jebać is also a word that you can use to create maaaany cursewords
08:54:37 <oerjan> maybe the polish also borrowed it, or it could be polish/latin cognate
08:54:43 <nooga_> it means, literally: to fuck
08:54:56 <oerjan> (but germanic would have turned c/k -> h)
08:55:00 <myndzi> you can certainly create many curse (phrases) with a verb like that ;)
08:55:23 <oerjan> oh wait slavic languages are "satem" group, so they wouldn't keep k either
08:55:30 <nooga_> zajebać = to kill someone, to steal sth; wyjebać = to beat someone, rozjebać = to break sth
08:55:39 <nooga_> najebać (komuś) = to beat someone
08:56:08 <nooga_> przejebane = something is fucked up
08:56:08 <myndzi> i paste together nonsensical polish phrases!
08:56:26 <nooga_> wyjebane = something is awesme
08:56:38 <nooga_> rozjebane = something is broken
08:56:44 <myndzi> how do you even pronounce "prze"?
08:56:51 <olsner> oerjan: wiktionary says kurwa comes from proto-slavic *kury, from proto-indo-european *kowr-, which they say is a cognate with Latin caurio
08:56:55 <myndzi> well, that's a silly question
08:57:04 <myndzi> obviously you pronounce it like you would say it :P
08:57:08 <oerjan> olsner: ah, not the same word then
08:57:14 <nooga_> a bit like english: ptche
08:57:31 <nooga_> words mutate in Polish
08:57:55 <oerjan> nooga_: words mutate everywhere
08:58:01 <oerjan> just not in the same way
08:58:17 <nooga_> at least not in Norwegian AFAIK
08:58:22 <myndzi> i guess that's what you get when you import an alphabet(?)
08:58:29 <myndzi> it's the consonant cluster that is throwing me for a loop
08:58:29 <oerjan> um what do you mean by mutate?
08:58:34 <myndzi> is that supposed to be all one syllable?
08:58:54 <myndzi> since 'p' and 't' are both plosives(?), you can't do them at the same time
08:59:18 <nooga_> hard to explain in english
08:59:23 <myndzi> so i'm imagining some sort of fricative 'p' sound
08:59:41 * oerjan sics a pterosaur on myndzi
08:59:42 * myndzi sics a pterosaur on oerjan
08:59:50 <Gracenotes> I always say "plosive" like "ppppplosive"
08:59:51 <myndzi> (ha you tricky person, silent p!)
09:00:15 <oerjan> myndzi: it wasn't silent in greek
09:01:03 <olsner> almost as exciting as irc-pong
09:01:20 <lereah_> Or that IRC interactive adventure we did :D
09:02:07 <myndzi> must be two syllables then i guess
09:02:17 <oerjan> norwegian doesn't pronounce pt, but we do a mean kn
09:02:17 <nooga_> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Basic_grammar << that's not all
09:02:54 <oerjan> myndzi: chew on this _georgian_ surname: mgrvgrvladje
09:02:55 <myndzi> at least kn don't conflict :D
09:03:02 <ais523> oerjan: Hungarian is fun, people will try to pronounce anything in that
09:03:12 <ais523> because suffices never change the stem of the word
09:03:16 <ais523> and you can string many of them together
09:03:40 <oerjan> the suffixes aren't really that clustered with consonants, though
09:03:41 <nooga_> you've got basically 5 tenses, 12 declensions, 2 pages, 6 conjugations and some other things
09:04:26 <nooga_> i've heard that Polish is second hardest language, after Finnish
09:04:43 <olsner> does that mean every word comes in 920 forms?
09:04:44 <myndzi> hardest to use or hardest to learn?
09:04:49 <nooga_> but i know Polish so idk
09:04:58 <nooga_> olsner: probably not every
09:05:14 <nooga_> declensions apply to verbs
09:05:20 <nooga_> conjugations apply to nouns
09:05:21 <oerjan> how can finnish be hard, it's agglutinating
09:05:44 <olsner> ah, ok, not as bad as I thought then :P
09:05:59 <oerjan> hardest in europe, _maybe_, but i'm sure there are far worse elsewhere
09:06:02 <ais523> nooga_: Navajo is generally considered to be one of the hardest languages in existence
09:06:12 <nooga_> i've tried to learn rusiian
09:06:24 <ais523> the US military used to use unencrypted Navajo as a secret code
09:06:28 <nooga_> they say it's A BIT simmilar
09:06:31 <ais523> they had to hire native speakers to translate...
09:06:45 <nooga_> but russian declensions ate me
09:06:51 <nooga_> and this stupid srcipt
09:07:36 <lereah_> It won't accept any extra space or newlines
09:07:43 <nooga_> with shitloads ofg macros
09:07:54 <lereah_> What are the macros for that shit?
09:07:57 <oerjan> lereah_: there are lots of spacing commands
09:08:02 <lereah_> I know it's supposed to format automatically
09:08:10 <lereah_> But what are the basic commands for that
09:09:41 <oerjan> lereah_: \hspace{...} and \vspace{...} at least
09:10:03 <oerjan> but the contents are special length units
09:10:12 <nooga_> my read beard is awful
09:10:36 <nooga_> i think i should sleep
09:11:39 <nooga_> my grey matter is black atm
09:12:16 <ais523> hmm... wouldn't that mean you were particularly brainy
09:12:28 <ais523> in the brain, the grey matter does the thinking, and the white matter sends messages long-distance
09:14:19 <nooga_> i'm retarded all the time
09:14:29 <nooga_> my IQ went from 137 to 50
09:14:40 <oerjan> ais523: no it would mean he were scatterbrained as the parts couldn't communicate ;D
09:14:53 <nooga_> i forgot basic words in englis, as well as in Polish
09:15:10 <nooga_> really, really annoying
09:16:43 <nooga_> my mac keyboard does not help though
09:24:08 <ais523> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them."
09:25:03 <ais523> if you've ever tried to program in Java, you'll know how badly it needs lambda
09:25:31 <ais523> Java doesn't have lambdas
09:25:37 <ais523> at least, didn't when I last looked
09:25:56 <Patashu> and java doesn't have them
09:25:56 <ais523> you have to create anonymous classes to have the function you want as a method, which is ridiculous
09:25:58 <Patashu> if that statement was correct lambdas wouldn't be obscure
09:26:01 <ais523> and lambdas aren't really obscure nowadays
09:26:14 <ais523> they're all over the place, even in some of Microsoft's langs
09:29:19 <nooga_> lambdas are the coolest thing that exists in modern mixed paradigm langs
09:29:23 <ais523> Patashu: if you consider yourself a programmer and don't regularly come across lambdas, learn a new language
09:29:42 <Patashu> guess I shouldn't have learned java then
09:29:45 <ais523> although you might end up not repeatedly using them (say if you write in C, probably using a lambda is too high-level), it's common to drown in them
09:30:07 <ais523> Patashu: in Java, where do you put your callback functions for Swing/AWT/
09:30:16 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
09:31:17 <ais523> that's one of the situations in Java where a lambda would be really useful
09:31:43 <nooga_> Jaca does not have closures?
09:31:50 <nooga_> FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
09:31:55 <ais523> it would let you specify the functions at the same time that you told the API what they were
09:32:08 <ais523> as opposed to having to find a random instance to attach the functions to
09:32:15 <ais523> you have to put them somewhere, and there's no really good place
09:32:59 <Gracenotes> Java has lexical closures via anonymous classes
09:33:13 <ais523> that's a really complex workaround, though
09:33:17 <ais523> for what /should/ be a simple operation
09:33:32 <Gracenotes> the proposed closures take inspiration from that form, though
09:33:52 <ais523> ah, glad to hear that they're planning to add them
09:34:02 <ais523> let's hope they don't mess them up as badly as they messed up templates
09:34:09 <Gracenotes> well. I'm not sure they'll be added. But there definitely is a proposal, and Gosling's looked at it
09:34:31 <Gracenotes> the template issue is mostly because they wanted backwards bytecode compatibility
09:35:10 <ais523> couldn't they have automatically added casts everywhere the object was used, in the bytecode?
09:36:10 <Gracenotes> casts? Well, you could have heterogenous collections in the older version
09:36:30 <Gracenotes> it'd have to make all casts be to Object.
09:36:34 <ais523> yes, but you had to cast them in order to get them to work
09:36:51 <ais523> I mean, type bleaching does nothing if you have a collection of Object anyway
09:37:06 <ais523> so suppose you have a new collection of Dog, or something
09:37:21 <ais523> you can cause the bytecode to, instead of returning a Dog, return an Object then cast it to Dog
09:37:22 <Gracenotes> well, you had to cast them to make them work, but that's usage, not internals...
09:37:31 <ais523> so that the new code uses Dogs, but the old bytecode uses Objects
09:37:39 <ais523> so you have bytecode compatibility + sanity
09:39:44 <ais523> but they were bought out by Oracle!
09:40:41 <Gracenotes> and they will send out their video game-like security to make you pay! :o
09:41:08 <ais523> what, video games use physical security nowadays?
09:41:53 <Gracenotes> I mean, it's tron. just go with it. >_>
09:43:22 <ais523> hmm... jump2 is now way down the rankings
09:43:29 <ais523> have people been taking steps specifically against it, I wonder?
09:43:44 <myndzi> ais523: leonid_ has been fucking with the RNG
09:43:54 <myndzi> that's all the activity i've noticed on and off
09:43:57 <ais523> myndzi: that's only one program, though
09:44:01 <myndzi> i keep tweaking my programs back and forth just to mess with him
09:44:09 <Patashu> you guys still going in secret?
09:44:25 <myndzi> once every hour maybe for me, i'm just keeping an eye out
09:44:30 <ais523> it's all logged by egobot anyway
09:44:59 <myndzi> i didn't do anything against jump that i didn't do when you put it on in the first place
09:45:20 <ais523> and it's not as if it affects most of your best programs
09:45:28 <myndzi> the rankings seem to change quite a bit with just the 2 or 3 move around
09:45:55 <myndzi> but it looks like Patashu's contributions and whatever the hell else has gone on in the past few hours seem to have cut into my lead :(
09:46:11 <ais523> yep, rushpolarity is way up
09:46:27 <ais523> I wonder if I could get away with using three tripwires in defend9 to beat that sort of thing?
09:46:29 <myndzi> and the other one is sometimes too
09:47:02 <myndzi> it doesn't appear to do anything particularly tricky
09:47:04 <Patashu> to try and figure out the opponent's loop
09:47:05 <ais523> myndzi: changing strategy from step to step
09:47:08 <Patashu> but it doesn't work if it alternates loops
09:47:10 <ais523> which confuses defence9
09:47:21 <ais523> I'm rather proud of defend9
09:47:26 <ais523> and have thought of some improvements to it
09:47:28 <myndzi> yeah, it's pretty impressive
09:47:29 <Patashu> but what if I used three different loops
09:47:31 <ais523> which I'll have to try sometime
09:47:38 <myndzi> i'm not sure there's anything you can do against a changing attack though
09:47:55 <ais523> yep, but changing attacks are possibly weaker anyway
09:48:07 <ais523> as you're using three strategies, one of them has to be suboptimal
09:48:08 <myndzi> Patashu: just curious, did you pick that up from keke2 earlier or just arrive at the same conclusion?
09:48:23 <myndzi> ais523: perhaps, but it may not need all that much effort
09:48:29 <myndzi> and many of them will succeed regardless
09:48:41 <Patashu> rushpolarity was my original idea, I didn't look at any other programs that alternated
09:48:54 <myndzi> it's not the same thing when i look at it
09:49:16 <myndzi> i was trying to (originally) do some sort of attack that kept changing timing
09:49:21 <myndzi> turned out most if it didn't matter
09:49:42 <myndzi> but the swap from + to - throws off his timing stuff i bet
09:50:20 <myndzi> ais523: you could potentially, at least to detect specifically Patashu's reversal thing, use numbers that count the same both ways .. if you know how to read them
09:51:05 <myndzi> anyway, it's well past my bedtime
09:51:31 <myndzi> i hope i still have anything on the hill tomorrow when i wake up ;P
09:51:34 <ais523> I specifically didn't use numbers that count the same both ways
09:51:44 <ais523> otherwise, how would I know which polarity to counteract with?
09:51:57 <ais523> more interesting would be counteractions which worked the same both ways
09:52:08 <ais523> defend6 had one of them for two-cycle loops
09:52:11 <myndzi> i was probably just confusing myself
09:52:14 <Patashu> you keep using + or - to push them over every 0 on your flag
09:52:20 <ais523> I wonder if that would be possible for other quantities
09:52:21 <Patashu> and use the intermittent time to run forward and attack each spot in turn
09:52:30 <Patashu> until every possible flag has been taken down
09:52:35 <ais523> I use a long string of + or - to prevent the value ever going near 0
09:52:43 <ais523> I can change faster than the opponent can
09:52:50 <ais523> as I'm doing (+)*128, they're in a loop
09:52:53 <Patashu> oh, because it's all unrolled
09:52:56 <myndzi> unless the opponent isn't looping
09:53:04 <Patashu> they don't know they're on your flag, but you do
09:53:09 <ais523> myndzi: defend9 doesn't deal with nonlooping opponents
09:53:17 <myndzi> i'm gonna run at you with a -.-..-... loop
09:53:25 <myndzi> (wait, that wouldn't work... :P)
09:53:36 <ais523> and I use the inbetween time to run over to all possible flags and sink them a bit at a time
09:53:43 <myndzi> better: (-.)*256>(-..)*256
09:54:06 <ais523> myndzi: then I'll just beat you with speedy1
09:54:40 <myndzi> i'm just thinking it'd be more fun to tweak your timing than do something else
09:54:55 <ais523> defend9 is definitely beatable, ofc
09:55:05 <ais523> I'm just wondering if taking steps just to beat it would hold you back against other programs
09:55:08 <myndzi> my favorite thing about defend6 was that it suicided
09:55:37 <myndzi> unless defend9 starts beating everything it won't gain you that many points to beat it
09:56:06 <myndzi> and if it's beating everything, it may become worth it (and also more feasible)
09:56:08 <ais523> defend6 does, indeed, suicide
09:56:11 <ais523> under certain circumstances
09:56:18 <myndzi> like, if you don't touch the flag
09:56:22 <ais523> defend9 can too, but it's a lot harder to persuade it to
09:56:33 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15
09:56:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 31.9
09:56:38 <ais523> however, hitting a decoy and two tripwires, but not the flag, would take quite some doing
09:56:39 <Patashu> not sure what to do with this one
09:56:56 <myndzi> just a slow moving program
09:57:00 <myndzi> that's how i did it the first time
09:57:04 <ais523> myndzi: trouble is, that wouldn't beat anything else
09:57:23 <myndzi> even after i slowed it down to handle the inverse
09:57:32 <myndzi> it didn't get top scores but it stuck around a while
09:57:38 <myndzi> i consider that one mark of usefulness at least
09:57:41 <Patashu> that beats defend 6,7,9, jump2, speed1 and ugh
09:57:59 <myndzi> ugh is just another pointless wtfscript
09:58:06 <ais523> Patashu: htf does that beat speedy1?
09:58:09 <myndzi> he advances to the right 30 times then goes back to the left(??)
09:58:18 <myndzi> and loops this process
09:58:19 <Patashu> misread, it doesn't beat speedy1
09:58:31 <Patashu> it beats waiter, defend6-7-9, jump2 and ugh
09:58:39 <lereah_> The tutorial sounds so smug
09:58:48 <lereah_> I just want to punch my screen.
09:58:50 <myndzi> he just wrote it wrong
09:58:51 <ais523> jump2 seems likely to fall off soon
09:58:57 <myndzi> it goes to the 30th position then tries to go back to the start
09:59:00 <myndzi> but then it only goes right 15
09:59:12 <myndzi> of course, it will only ever hit the 'go back to the left' stage 1/20th of the time
09:59:15 <ais523> going to the 30th position is dubious anyway
09:59:21 <ais523> if you get there, why not just sink the flag?
09:59:29 <Patashu> leonid has no idea what the fuck is going on that's why
09:59:29 <ais523> after all, you know it's there
09:59:37 <myndzi> he's just putting random shit in until he gets good random numbers that give him a good score
10:00:05 <ais523> well, I confess that I was seedtampering with defend9 to stop it getting random very short tapes
10:00:13 <ais523> but only against programs that lose to it on nearly every tape length
10:00:23 <ais523> but beat it on exceptionally short ones
10:00:30 <myndzi> heh, i did that unknowingly earlier too
10:00:40 <myndzi> most variants would win and all of a sudden a tie.. wat?
10:00:45 <myndzi> gotta fix that, try to change the timing a little
10:00:50 <myndzi> didn't know it wasn't timing that was doing it
10:01:09 <myndzi> now i was just doing it to drop leonid_ back down the hill :P
10:01:44 <myndzi> there's gotta be a better solution
10:01:48 <myndzi> i just don't know what
10:01:53 <ais523> I could probably improve defend9 by putting some counterdefence in
10:02:01 <ais523> myndzi: ehird's try-all-lengths interp might be it
10:02:09 <myndzi> i was thinking that may not be so hot
10:02:15 <myndzi> i was about to comment on it but i couldn't phrase it well
10:02:47 <myndzi> it's desirable in that it takes random chance out of the game and makes set-length attackers useless
10:03:21 <myndzi> i worked out what i was thinking about and it's probably not a big deal
10:03:26 <ais523> it also makes overaiming more interesting
10:03:35 <ais523> it's a strategy discovered in the original BF Joust
10:03:42 <ais523> where you assume that the tape length is, say, at least 15
10:03:56 <myndzi> "playing the odds" was on for a while, did pretty decent
10:03:56 <ais523> it gives you an instant loss in 1/4 of games, but an advantage in the other 3/4
10:04:25 <myndzi> it'd do better with rng manipulation ;)
10:04:39 <myndzi> the other thing about this hill is
10:04:45 <myndzi> beating useless warriors doesn't gain you anything
10:04:58 <myndzi> if you beat someone with 0 points, you get none
10:05:08 <Patashu> a counter for a specific warrrior type will only last if that warrior type is itself dominating
10:05:26 <myndzi> i think you ought to get a little more credit than that, meh
10:05:33 <myndzi> that leads back to fixed scores, which i think i'd prefer
10:05:43 <myndzi> but at least gregor dropped the points received from ties earlier
10:05:49 <myndzi> that seems to have worked out
10:11:28 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing (>[)*15(+[[-]>+]+[[-]>+]])*15+[[-]>+]+[[-]>+]
10:11:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 11.7
10:12:04 <Patashu> beats juggernaut and shade
10:12:26 <ais523> heh, it's probably going too /fast/
10:12:30 <ais523> and I messed up the code anyway
10:12:47 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing (>[)*15 [[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]
10:12:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 18.9
10:12:55 <ais523> I pressed return by mistake
10:13:05 <ais523> and that should be a syntax error, I don't know why it scored points
10:15:24 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]][[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]
10:15:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 13.2
10:15:57 <ais523> I don't get why that's drawing against the defenders
10:16:00 <ais523> it should suicide against them
10:16:05 <Patashu> beats jump2 and shade. ties defends 679 and jump2
10:16:14 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]
10:16:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 13.2
10:16:32 <ais523> I wonder what I've messed up this time?
10:17:17 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >>>>>[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]
10:17:21 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 21.3
10:17:27 <ais523> missing square bracket at the end
10:17:46 <ais523> !bfjoust brackettest [
10:17:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_brackettest: 9.7
10:18:20 <ais523> yep, jump2 suicides against an opponent that doesn't set up decoys
10:18:48 <Deewiant> Ah, it jumps over the first X nonzero cells
10:19:01 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >.>.>.>.>.[>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[[>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]
10:19:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 25.7
10:19:23 <ais523> wow, it's now almost on the bottom of the leaderboard
10:19:35 <Deewiant> Beats jump2, ugh, 3pass, shade
10:19:37 <Patashu> beats jump2, ugh, pass3, shade
10:19:40 <Patashu> god everything beats shade :P
10:20:47 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >.>.>.>.>.[(>)*5[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*6[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*7[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*8[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*9[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[[(>)*10[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*11[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*12[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*13[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>.[(>)*14[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]
10:20:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 10.8
10:21:03 <ais523> heh, I wonder why it dropped so much?
10:21:15 <GregorR-L> shade seems to only beat important ones :P
10:21:16 <Deewiant> Ties against the defends and jump2
10:21:40 <ais523> !bfjoust another_kind_of_timing >+++>--->+++>--->+++[(>)*5[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*6[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*7[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*8[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*9[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[[(>)*10[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*11[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*12[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*13[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]>[(>)*14[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]+[[+[-]>+]+[[-]>+]]
10:21:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_another_kind_of_timing: 5.2
10:21:52 <Deewiant> Now it doesn't even beat shade
10:21:52 <ais523> I just don't get why it's tying against the defends
10:22:12 <ais523> anyway, I'll abandon that line of reasoning
10:22:57 * ais523 vaguely wonders if the average program is slow enough that I could set up a whole second dummy flag in defend9, so I wouldn't have to risk the real one
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10:24:09 <ais523> shade beating slowrush is probably why it's doing so well
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10:30:20 <GregorR-L> Yeah, slowrush is a good one to beat.
10:36:25 <jix_> !bfjoust try [[+-]+]
10:36:29 <EgoBot> Score for jix__try: 24.1
10:36:35 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix.
10:37:08 <Patashu> that wouldn't work very well
10:37:08 <jix> !bfjoust try [[(+-)*5]+]
10:37:11 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try: 17.6
10:37:15 <Patashu> once it realizes it's 0 ( on a ]) it's already too late
10:37:53 <jix> just read about bfjoust...
10:38:26 <Patashu> it goes like this: ]s take value, both programs execute a command
10:38:41 <Patashu> if either flag is at 0 and was 0 for the end of the previous round as well declare a winner
10:39:39 <jix> so basically i can never test whether my flag is zero....
10:41:04 <Patashu> you can test whether ANY other cell is zero :)
10:42:47 <jix> !bfjoust try [->[-]+]
10:42:51 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try: 26.5
10:43:21 <jix> !bfjoust try [>[-]+]
10:43:24 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try: 19.6
10:45:34 <jix> in a loop is a cycle taken for [ and ] of the loop during iterations?
10:45:49 <jix> ah no isn't
10:45:56 <jix> the spec sais isn't
10:46:06 <jix> ] jump to just after the matching [
10:46:28 <Deewiant> Yes, but the ] itself takes one cycle
10:46:41 <jix> Deewiant: but that wasn't what i intended to ask ^^
10:47:04 <Patashu> [-] is executed like -]-]-]-]...
10:47:10 <Deewiant> So if you have [-] then the execution is not [-][-][-], it's [-]-]-]
10:48:40 <jix> !bfjoust try <
10:48:43 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try: 0.0
10:48:55 <Patashu> if you die it's a win for your opponent
10:48:59 <Patashu> but if you nop forever it's not
10:49:04 <Patashu> watch out for that distinction
10:49:18 <Patashu> !bfjoust thisbeatssuiciding .
10:49:22 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_thisbeatssuiciding: 13.2
10:49:29 <Patashu> this also beats programs that expect to see decoys or w/e
10:50:12 <Patashu> it's not a big deal though because scoring is weighed; if you beat a program that has a high score YOU get a higher score
10:50:26 <Patashu> so they don't lose much for not beating my terrible program that loses almost every fight
10:52:25 <jix> !bfjoust try [>(+)*10[-](-)*20]
10:52:28 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try: 34.7
10:53:19 <Patashu> that beats maglev, juggernaut, lolscounter, jump2, spyglass, ugh and slowrush
10:53:41 <Patashu> you know where to find the other programs to look at them?
10:53:54 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/
10:54:39 <Patashu> defend9 and shade were algorithmically generated, hence the size
10:55:01 <jix> genetic algorithm?
10:55:05 <Patashu> defend6 and defend7 have been around for -ages-
10:55:23 <Patashu> no. he made an algorithm that codes higher level computations in just brainfuck
10:55:36 <Patashu> which is a lot faster than handwriting it as you can imagine
10:55:41 <jix> because that would be worth a try too
10:55:44 <Patashu> no one's used genetic algorithms for bfjoust yet
10:55:53 <jix> well then it's time for that i guess ^^
10:56:28 <jix> nah i should continue my linker instead of doing esoteric stuff right now...
10:56:41 <jix> ... but otoh this is a really nice challenge
10:57:22 <Patashu> you should work on your linker now
10:57:33 <Patashu> because there's a flaw in the way it compares programs atm
10:57:44 <Patashu> it only runs one match, which uses a tape length seeded by the concatenation of the two algorithms
10:58:01 <jix> this is flawed
10:58:03 <Patashu> so it's vulnerable to insignificant changes
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10:58:13 <Deewiant> As a bonus it uses the unexpanded source
10:58:14 <Patashu> it's going to get fixed in one or two days when it runs all possible combinations
10:58:22 <Deewiant> So it sees -- and (-)*2 as different
10:58:35 <jix> and - (-)*1
10:58:36 <Patashu> only for the purposes of hashing the original tape length for each match yeah
10:58:40 <Patashu> it's not too bad right now
10:58:45 <Deewiant> Yes, and -this is a comment- etc.
10:58:48 <Patashu> but for genetic algorithms it would produce flawed results
10:59:23 <jix> Patashu: not if i adjust the interpreter i use for ranking to that
11:00:20 <Patashu> and just run it on your own for a while?
11:00:51 <jix> well for genetic algorithms i'd have to evaluate a few thousand programs / sec
11:01:38 <Patashu> 21 tape lengths: maybe randomly evaluate one length out of the first five, one out of the next six, one out of the next five, one out of the next five
11:01:47 <Patashu> gives a reasonable approximation
11:02:00 <jix> i don't thin so..
11:02:11 <jix> because i think for some programs even/odd length is more important
11:02:19 <jix> so i could just evaluate only one by random
11:02:24 <Patashu> force two even force two odd?
11:02:38 <jix> Patashu: for some the length mod 3 might be important ;)
11:02:58 <jix> i'd just rank them by one.... because in the next iteration they will be ranked by a different length
11:03:12 <jix> and only the good ones will survive for a long time
11:03:40 <Patashu> randomly flipping or not flipping the second program's polarity
11:03:57 <Patashu> to prevent trivial counters that are just the original program but using the polarity it handles worse
11:04:07 <Patashu> though I don't know how easy a genetic algorithm will derive those
11:04:22 <Patashu> if it can't do something like that in one step it's probably fine
11:04:38 <jix> yeah that's always the most tricky part ...
11:04:44 <jix> getting the mutations / crossovers right for the problem
11:05:28 <Patashu> you might want to seed it with, say, programs currently on the hill?
11:05:34 <Patashu> because the goal in bfjoust is reasonably specific
11:05:49 <jix> Patashu: i wouldn't seed it with that
11:05:57 <jix> but would rank all programs against them
11:06:25 <jix> so they get ranked against the #estoric hill and my own GA hill
11:07:21 <Patashu> what do you seed it with then?
11:07:56 <jix> well when i do GAs i also add random genomes to the population with each step
11:08:02 <jix> so i'd have to create an algorithm to do random programs anyway
11:08:36 <jix> does the hill use the perl implementation?
11:09:31 <Patashu> ehird was working on an interpreter. meant to be fast as nails
11:09:36 <Patashu> well nails aren't very fast
11:10:11 <Patashu> I assume every addition of a [ will also force a ] to be inserted?
11:10:30 <jix> i think i'll keep loops in a tree structure
11:10:37 <jix> so it'll never move a ]
11:10:47 <jix> because that will most probably result in a totally different program
11:10:59 <jix> while moving a [...] might just be a slight modification
11:11:52 <jix> well will code a bit on the linker now and come back to this later
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11:37:08 <jix> !bfjoust try2 [>[>[-]<-]+]
11:37:12 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try2: 12.3
11:40:23 <jix> !bfjoust try2 [>[-]-[-]-]
11:40:27 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try2: 24.1
11:41:33 <jix> !bfjoust try2 [>[---]-[-----](-)*100]
11:41:36 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try2: 25.4
11:41:43 <jix> !bfjoust try2 [>[---]-[-----](-)*10]
11:41:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try2: 30.4
11:45:41 <ais523> jump's been pushed off, I see
11:45:52 <ais523> and defend6 and defend7 are gradually moving down the leaderboard
11:46:52 <jix> !bfjoust idle ([]+)*1000
11:46:56 <EgoBot> Score for jix_idle: 11.4
11:47:06 <Patashu> that wouldn't work very well
11:47:21 <Patashu> you take the cell value from the start of the round
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11:47:35 <Patashu> ] sees a 0 and says 'ah, time for the next instruction'
11:47:41 <Patashu> but before it can execute that instruction the game is over
11:47:50 <Patashu> [] on your flag is pointless
11:47:54 <Patashu> [] on a cell in front of it however... :)
11:48:02 <jix> yeah i've seen that
11:48:13 <jix> try2 assumes there is a [] on the cell next to it
11:48:48 <jix> and kills defend* and waiter
11:49:14 <jix> but for a lot of others it probably just moves past the end
11:50:22 <jix> !bfjoust idiot (-)*384000
11:50:26 <EgoBot> Score for jix_idiot: 24.2
11:50:38 <Patashu> max cycle count is current 100k
11:51:15 <jix> haha that one wins only against my other 2... and against shade...
11:51:26 <jix> so i just manged to lower the score of my other 2 programs
11:51:28 <leonid_> bfjoust idiot (-)*99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
11:51:48 <ais523> leonid_: but it can only run for 100000 cycles anyway
11:51:51 <ais523> so all those 9s are redundant
11:54:00 <jix> !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*128>(+)*128>(-)*128>(+)*128[][>(+)*10[-](-)*20]
11:54:03 <EgoBot> Score for jix_waitntry: 19.1
11:55:43 <jix> !bfjoust waitntry >>(-)*32>>>(+)*32>>+[]+[>(+)*10[-](-)*20]
11:55:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_waitntry: 17.1
11:57:56 <jix> !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*32>(+)*32>(-)*32>(+)*32[]++[>(+)*10[-](-)*20]
11:58:00 <EgoBot> Score for jix_waitntry: 24.3
11:58:15 <jix> !bfjoust waitntry >(-)*16>(+)*16>(-)*16>(+)*16[]++[>(+)*10[-](-)*20]
11:58:19 <EgoBot> Score for jix_waitntry: 19.6
11:59:50 <jix> !bfjoust idiot2 (-)*128(+-)*100000
11:59:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_idiot2: 8.5
12:02:22 <jix> !bfjoust keep >>(+[[]+])*30
12:02:26 <EgoBot> Score for jix_keep: 14.5
12:03:21 <leonid_> you guys were talking badthing about me
12:03:26 <jix> !bfjoust keep >>(+[])*300
12:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_keep: 5.2
12:03:50 <jix> !bfjoust keep >>(+[])*100000
12:03:54 <EgoBot> Score for jix_keep: 15.0
12:04:39 <Patashu> by the time you exit the [] loop
12:04:53 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*7(>[-[+]])*15(<)*29)*37
12:04:54 <jix> Patashu: yeah i know
12:04:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 56.2
12:05:06 <jix> leonid_: huh?
12:05:44 <jix> !bfjoust keep >>>>>>>>(+[]<<)*100000
12:05:45 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*2(>[-[+]])*6(<)*9)*37
12:05:49 <EgoBot> Score for jix_keep: 5.1
12:05:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 21.2
12:06:01 <leonid_> that's the reason why i keep putting random shit
12:06:26 <Patashu> why would you make code that goes backwards more than it goes forwards?
12:06:41 <jix> Patashu: i'm just experimenting
12:06:50 <Patashu> this is trivial optimization though
12:07:00 <Patashu> and would give a more accurate depiction of how your code's doing
12:07:26 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*3(>[-[+]])*4(<)*9)*20
12:07:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 34.8
12:08:03 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*2>>(>[-[+]])*4(<)*9)*20
12:08:07 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 26.7
12:08:17 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4>>(>[-[+]])*2(<)*9)*20
12:08:19 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 23.1
12:08:27 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*32>(-)*32)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*20
12:08:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 29.8
12:08:53 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*20
12:08:56 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 54.7
12:09:06 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*18
12:09:10 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 55.0
12:09:12 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*17
12:09:16 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 48.4
12:09:45 <jix> !bfjoust fib >>++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<]
12:09:48 <EgoBot> Score for jix_fib: 8.6
12:09:58 <Patashu> that's very complex looking
12:10:01 <Patashu> does it do what you think it does?
12:10:11 <jix> i just took http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b
12:10:52 <Deewiant> !bfjoust rot13 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/rot13.b
12:10:55 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_rot13: 0.0
12:11:15 <Patashu> amazingly, brainfuck programs don't make good bfjoust programs
12:11:19 <Deewiant> !bfjoust squares http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/squares.b
12:11:22 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_squares: 0.0
12:11:22 <Patashu> who knew that computing fibbonaci numbers was so useless?
12:11:36 <Deewiant> !bfjoust random http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/random.b
12:11:39 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_random: 0.0
12:11:47 <Deewiant> !bfjoust fib http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b
12:11:49 <jix> you have to add a > at the beginning
12:11:50 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_fib: 0.0
12:11:53 <jix> or they'll all sucide
12:12:06 <ais523> most BF programs don't start [-], though
12:12:15 <Deewiant> !bfjoust rot13 >[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>
12:12:18 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_rot13: 10.7
12:12:21 <Deewiant> +<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>>+++++[<----->-]<<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>++++++++++++++<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]>.[-]<,]
12:12:33 <jix> !bfjoust err [
12:12:37 <EgoBot> Score for jix_err: 6.4
12:12:41 <jix> !bfjoust err ]
12:12:45 <EgoBot> Score for jix_err: 10.7
12:13:03 <jix> !bfjoust err ]+]
12:13:06 <EgoBot> Score for jix_err: 16.4
12:13:32 <Deewiant> !bfjoust random >>>++[<++++++++[<[<++>-]>>[>>]+>>+[-[->>+<<<[<[<<]<+>]>[>[>>]]]<[>>[-]]>[>[-<<]>[<+<]]+<<]<[>+<-]>>-]<.[-]>>]
12:13:35 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_random: 0.0
12:13:46 <Patashu> I'm not sure what exactly [ without ] does
12:15:03 <jix> hmm i should write a debugger for this at some time
12:15:57 <Deewiant> !bfjoust factorial >(+)*10>>>+>+[>>>+[-[<<<<<[+<<<<<]>>[[-]>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-]<([>+<-)*9[>[-]>>>>+>+<<<<<<-[>+<-(])*11>[<+>-]+>>>>>]<<<<<[<<<<<](>)*7[>>>>>]++[-<<<<<]>>>>>>-]+>>>>>]<[>++<-]<<<<[<[>+<-]<<<<]>>[->[-]++++++[<(+)*8>-]>>>>]<<<<<[<[>+>+<<-]>.<<<<<]>.>>>>]
12:16:00 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_factorial: 8.8
12:16:11 <ais523> slightly afternoon AnMaster
12:16:16 <Deewiant> !bfjoust factorial >(+)*10>>>+>+[>>>+[-[<<<<<[+<<<<<]>>[[-]>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-]<([>+<-)*9[>[-]>>>>+>+<<<<<<-[>+<-(])*11>[<+>-]+>>>>>]<<<<<[<<<<<](>)*7[>>>>>]++[-<<<<<]>>>>>>-]+>>>>>]<[>++<-]<<<<[<[>+<-]<<<<]>>[->[-]++++++[<(+)*8>-]>>>>]<<<<<[<[>+>+<<-]>.<<<<<]>.>>>>]
12:16:18 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_factorial: 4.2
12:16:35 <Deewiant> Beats mirage, loses against everything else :-P
12:18:20 <ais523> psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz
12:18:37 <Patashu> !rot13 psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz
12:18:38 <EgoBot> cfrjryxyvuvnaqanonesehk purjryvfxfvnzgznlobolnetehm
12:19:32 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4>>(>[-[+]])*5(<)*12)*23
12:19:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 65.4
12:20:33 <Patashu> rushpolarity :twisted::twisted::twis ted:
12:21:06 <Deewiant> !bfjoust collatz >[(-)*10[>>>[>>>>]+[[-]+<[->>>>++>>>>+[>>>>]++[->+<<<<<]]<<<](+)*6[>(-)*6<-]>--[>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]>-],<]>]>>>++>+>>[<<[>>>>[-](+)*9<[>-<-](+)*9>[-[<->-]+[<<<<]]<[>+<-]>]>[>[>>>>]+[[-]<[+[->>>>]>+<]>[<+>[<<<<]]+<<<<]>>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]]>[[>+>>[<<<<+>>>>-]>]<<<<[-]>[-<<<<]](>)*7]>>+[[-](+)*6>>>>]<<<<[[<(+)*8>-]<.([-]<)*3]
12:21:10 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_collatz: 13.1
12:21:44 <Deewiant> !bfjoust collatz >[(-)*10[>>>[>>>>]+[[-]+<[->>>>++>>>>+[>>>>]++[->+<<<<<]]<<<](+)*6[>(-)*6<-]>--[>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]>-],<]>]>>>++>+>>[<<[>>>>[-](+)*9<[>-<-](+)*9>[-[<->-]+[<<<<]]<[>+<-]>]>[>[>>>>]+[[-]<[+[->>>>]>+<]>[<+>[<<<<]]+<<<<]>>>[->>>>]+>+[<<<<]]>[[>+>>[<<<<+>>>>-]>]<<<<[-]>[-<<<<]](>)*7]>>+[[-](+)*6>>>>]<<<<[[<(+)*8>-]<.([-]<)*3]
12:21:48 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_collatz: 13.2
12:22:33 <Patashu> imagine making one that looks like this but still gets lots of wins
12:22:59 <Patashu> it may appear to be generating prime numbers innocently, but behind the scenes it thrashes all 19 other programs on the hill
12:24:58 <Deewiant> !bfjoust dbfi >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>(+)*7[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>(+)*6<<-]+>>++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<(+)*9>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[-(>)*8]<<[>.(>)*7]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>.>>>]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<]
12:25:02 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_dbfi: 7.9
12:25:25 <Deewiant> Brainfuck interpreter beats keke2
12:26:48 <jix> huh something is wrong with the report?
12:27:07 <Patashu> sometimes it's screwed by tabs if a program scores only single digits
12:27:54 <jix> !bfjoust nothing .
12:27:57 <Patashu> but it should report fine otherwise
12:27:57 <EgoBot> Score for jix_nothing: 10.3
12:28:06 <Patashu> . beats programs that rely apon an assumption
12:28:11 <Patashu> i.e. my enemy will setup decoys
12:28:30 <leonid_> here goes a program that runs off the end and doesn't care
12:28:31 <jix> when is the report updated and what does it include?
12:28:31 <leonid_> !bfjoust ugh ((>(+)*19>(-)*19)*4(>[-[+]])*7(<)*12)*59
12:28:35 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 66.6
12:28:40 <Patashu> it's reported after every new submission
12:28:51 <jix> does it include the last submission always?
12:29:06 <Deewiant> leonid_: Thanks for raising maglev's score ^_^
12:29:12 <jix> because i don't see them often
12:29:19 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1439379
12:29:42 <Patashu> defend9 teh best program!!
12:29:45 <ais523> also, if defend9 takes a long time to run, that's normally because it's winning
12:29:48 <Patashu> the 9 stands for over nine thousand
12:29:53 <ais523> so I have a good feeling about this
12:30:22 <ais523> it's almost the same program, I just fixed a couple of bugs and optimised the value of an important constant
12:31:34 <ais523> and wow, it /is/ taking a long time
12:31:38 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9: 73.6
12:31:56 <ais523> top of the leaderboard
12:31:58 <Deewiant> Yay, you raised maglev's score too
12:32:22 <leonid_> i redesigned ugh to raise all the other scores
12:32:33 <Deewiant> maglev beats everybody above it except shade and rushpolarity
12:32:43 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__ugh: 0.0
12:32:49 <Deewiant> leonid_: Noo, now you reduced my score :-P
12:33:31 <ais523> I wonder if keke2 has been redesigned recently
12:33:34 <ais523> because I beat it locally
12:33:40 <ais523> but I lost to it in EgoBot
12:33:40 <jix> !bfjoust try2 <
12:33:50 <EgoBot> Score for jix_try2: 0.1
12:34:01 <ais523> heh, the two suicide programs tie with each other
12:34:08 <ais523> they're both on 0.1 now
12:34:17 <ais523> Deewiant: the random seed is based on a hash of both programs
12:34:25 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! [>[-[+]]-]
12:34:25 <ais523> so any particular matchup should be deterministic
12:34:35 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 34.2
12:34:37 <Deewiant> ais523: Oh, so you're using the same impl
12:34:57 <ais523> Deewiant: almost the same
12:35:00 <Deewiant> ais523: I assumed that your local interpreter would do things differently
12:35:01 <ais523> I hacked it to produce debug output
12:35:15 <ais523> so I can see how any particular pair of programs functions
12:35:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust bluguerrilla_glasses [--]_[--]
12:35:38 <ais523> Patashu: incidentally, it beats rushpolarity now too
12:35:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__bluguerrilla_glasses: 5.5
12:35:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]-]
12:36:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.0
12:36:13 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]--]
12:36:23 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5
12:36:26 <ais523> due to an architectural improvement; I made it polarity-independent
12:36:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---]
12:36:38 <ais523> it now has two /different/ ways of gluing the opponent in place
12:36:38 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 47.7
12:36:46 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]](-)*4]
12:36:56 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 32.4
12:37:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! ++[>[-[+]]---]
12:37:10 <jix> the value should be coprime to 256
12:37:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5
12:37:17 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]--]
12:37:21 <jix> oh wait you're moving there
12:37:27 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 40.5
12:37:34 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---]
12:37:47 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 47.7
12:38:06 <ais523> wow, quickbeatinthestreetdanceonyo_feetcausethisissoneat has dropped a /lot/
12:38:11 <leonid_> !bfjoust idiot ((-)*1000><><><><><><><)*100
12:38:19 <Patashu> let's see what it's losing to...
12:38:21 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 8.5
12:38:35 <leonid_> !bfjoust idiot (+-><-+)*100000
12:38:44 <Patashu> maglev, waiter, defend 6-7-9, neon glow, 3pass, keke2
12:38:45 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 22.9
12:38:49 <Patashu> it was beating defend9 and now is not
12:39:07 <leonid_> !bfjoust idiot (+->(-)*19<-+)*10000
12:39:09 <ais523> leonid_: that's like my vff, just worse
12:39:16 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 10.0
12:39:24 <ais523> if you're going to write a farmer, you may as well go all out
12:39:34 <jix> !bfjoust (>)*11(-.)*512
12:39:35 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
12:39:39 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*11(-.)*512
12:39:44 <leonid_> !bfjoust idiot (+->+-<)*100000
12:39:54 <ais523> Patashu: a program that scrambles the tape elements near its flag
12:39:58 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 17.0
12:39:58 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 7.8
12:40:04 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*512
12:40:05 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what good that does, except for scrambling the flag itself
12:40:14 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 15.2
12:40:18 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*13(-.)*512
12:40:21 <Deewiant> Since when are they called farmers?
12:40:24 <leonid_> !bfjoust idiot ((+-)*100>(+-)*100<)*5000
12:40:30 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 11.2
12:40:30 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 18.4
12:40:32 <ais523> I think someone submitted a program like that and called it farmer
12:40:36 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*14(-.)*512
12:40:40 <ais523> I might be wrong, though
12:40:44 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 8.5
12:40:49 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 0.0
12:40:52 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*15(-.)*512
12:40:57 <Deewiant> I submitted some six or seven farmers
12:40:57 <ais523> Deewiant: well, you coined a BF Joust term, well done
12:41:02 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 6.2
12:41:10 <ais523> now, who came up with "tripwire"/
12:41:17 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*13(-.)*256>(-.)*256
12:41:23 <Deewiant> The only one I've seen using that term is you :-P
12:41:27 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 10.6
12:41:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust kirbyhassuicidalfeelingsheneedstoexpress <(-.-)*3>
12:41:39 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*256>(-.)*256
12:41:46 <ais523> hmm... I just noticed a *-160 in defend9's code
12:41:50 <ais523> it's in a bit that probably never runs
12:41:52 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_kirbyhassuicidalfeelingsheneedstoexpress: 0.0
12:41:52 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 17.3
12:42:15 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129
12:42:24 <ais523> I'll need to figure out what it /ought/ to say later
12:42:25 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 24.4
12:42:33 <ais523> probably *163, based on context
12:42:37 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129a
12:42:47 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 8.9
12:42:48 <Patashu> so, maglev and keke2 beat defend9
12:42:51 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129b
12:43:02 <ais523> Patashu: keke2 I don't know
12:43:06 <ais523> given that my local tests, it doesn't
12:43:08 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 9.6
12:43:08 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 12.4
12:43:12 <leonid_> jix you are exploiting hash values D:
12:43:18 <jix> !bfjoust whoops (>)*12(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129>(-.)*129
12:43:28 <EgoBot> Score for jix_whoops: 29.7
12:43:31 <Patashu> wait what was that text macro I had
12:44:18 <Patashu> ~~~:'(HASH BASED RANDOMNESS:'(~~
12:44:23 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 11.0
12:44:37 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 30.8
12:44:40 <jix> we need a faster implementation for the hil
12:44:51 <EgoBot> Score for leonid__idiot: 26.0
12:45:15 <ais523> ah, keke2 starts with ten >s
12:45:27 <ais523> and in my local game, the random seed happens to give a tape length of 10
12:45:35 <ais523> so it's kind of hard to test
12:45:46 <ais523> presumably the RNG is different in the egobot version due to having a different libc
12:48:00 <ais523> that wasn't even a deliberate attempt to exploit the hash
12:48:14 <ais523> it just turned out that way when I finally got the detection code properly working
12:51:43 <ais523> speedy1's dropping down the leaderboard now
12:51:49 <ais523> at least it's done its bit to make programs a bit faster
12:53:19 <Patashu> the less it matters if you don't beat it
12:53:33 <ais523> same for any other program
12:53:43 <ais523> but the hill will be faster overall as a result
12:53:54 <ais523> you can tell it's faster, on the basis that speedy1 is doing badly on it
12:53:56 <ais523> but was doing well before
12:54:56 * ais523 wonders how long defend9 will stay up there
12:55:31 <ais523> it's not meant to be obfuscated
12:55:43 <Patashu> i.e. obfuscated by definition
12:57:18 * ais523 thinks it's interesting that even defence programs have to use decoys, to give themselves time to set up the defence
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13:07:39 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15
13:07:50 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 17.5
13:07:52 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.--++.-.+.-+)*29
13:08:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 30.3
13:13:05 <lereah_> http://naitohorizon.blogspot.com/
13:15:10 <lereah_> leonid : It reminded me of this : http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%86%85%E8%97%A4%E3%83%9B%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BE%E3%83%B3#.E3.83.96.E3.83.BC.E3.83.B32
13:28:32 <lereah_> Mona font isn't monospaced
13:28:34 <Gracenotes> sorry. your home is 2ch, cute creature
13:29:04 <lereah_> Well, bu-n works on IRC, but only when using one line.
13:29:16 <lereah_> ⊂二二二（ ＾ω＾）二⊃ SPREAD YOUR ARMS AND BU-N
13:31:52 <leonid_> too lazy to bring up japanese keyboard
13:32:27 <lereah_> http://tanasinn.info/wiki/%28_%EF%BE%9F_%E3%83%AE%EF%BE%9F%29
13:34:23 <Gracenotes> I read a story about that when I was younger
13:34:39 <Gracenotes> the mittens who lost their kittens. Or actually it was the other way around.
13:35:00 <lereah_> "This page is small. You can help by making it huge. "
13:35:10 <ais523> Gracenotes: I thought they got them dirty, rather than losing them
13:35:28 <Gracenotes> ais523: I think we may have read different stories?
13:35:49 <ais523> it's a British nursery rhyme
13:35:53 <ais523> and not a particularly interesting one
13:35:56 <ais523> I can't remember it any more
13:36:09 <lereah_> http://www.rhymes.org.uk/three_little_kittens.htm
13:36:33 <lereah_> "Meeow, meeow, meeow, now we shall have no pie."
13:36:44 <Gracenotes> ais523: actually, it may be the same one :)
13:37:15 <ais523> and then got them dirty eating the pie
13:37:32 <ais523> the big question here is: why would a cat wear gloves to eat pie anyway/
13:38:21 <Gracenotes> it would be easier to wash their gloves than to wash their paws
13:47:48 <Gracenotes> oh man, reminds me of when I had the kirby rolling game on my gameboy color
13:56:57 <lereah_> She's more of the kind to wish on a dream and shit like that
13:58:31 <lereah_> http://tanasinn.info/images/4/42/PayDaddyCool.png
13:58:38 <lereah_> That picture always cracks me up.
14:00:41 <Gracenotes> lereah_: I don't exactly get the foodstuffs.
14:00:55 <lereah_> Yes, it is quite maddening
14:02:13 <Gracenotes> lereah_: if u eat teh cake i will give u access to my secret area of http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg
14:09:02 <jix> is nesting of ( and ) allowed?
14:09:26 <ais523> although nested ({})% doesn't seem to work
14:09:38 <ais523> so replacing with ()* for GregorR's interpreter is required
14:09:41 <ais523> even though that's against the spec
14:11:24 <jix> ([)*322 is illegal according to the spec
14:11:40 <lereah_> They're all stored in my old Game Boy bag
14:11:47 <jix> btu is in defend9
14:11:53 <lereah_> Except when I have to pay Daddy Cool.
14:12:17 <jix> ais523: i'm writing my own interpreter right now and want to make it compatible to what is out there...
14:14:25 <Gracenotes> I approve of this diagram. http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Mittens
14:16:19 <jix> what interpreter does egobot use?
14:16:32 <ais523> it's in the egobot distribution
14:18:33 <jix> ais523: which can be found where?
14:18:46 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
14:23:20 <Patashu> this looks like the original bfjoust interp https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/1fdbcf450c99
14:23:32 <ais523> the Perl interp's my original
14:23:43 <Patashu> egojoust: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/rev/d788867c80a2
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14:24:19 <lereah_> http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Haruhi_Mittens
14:24:35 <jix> ais523: and what about the spec saying that ([)*10 is illegal but it being used
14:25:09 <ais523> jix: if you don't support it, make sure you get nested ({})% working
14:25:17 <ais523> if you're aiming for compatibility, you should support both
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14:26:03 <jix> what is annoying... that i don't know what kind of pattern i have on the opening (
14:27:06 <Patashu> why not scan ahead to see if you find a { on the same level as it
14:27:10 <Patashu> then jump back and continue
14:27:20 <jix> just found another solution
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14:33:19 <lereah_> Gracenotes, are you a /prog/lodyte?
14:34:40 <Gracenotes> I have been known to browse. and post.
14:35:21 <lereah_> There seems to be a lot of /prog/ people here
14:36:02 <lereah_> /prog/ seems pretty active for a textboard
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16:57:58 <whtspc> I'm a big time lurker here
16:58:31 <whtspc> so I speak out loud for once
16:58:50 <whtspc> Is there a standalone version of egobot
16:59:07 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
16:59:10 <whtspc> something alike that I can use without the channel
16:59:34 <oerjan> this version is fairly new
17:00:03 <oerjan> you can private message it, anyhow
17:00:29 <oerjan> also, GregorR is the person to ask
17:01:09 <whtspc> I would like to play around with it at work :)
17:01:36 <oerjan> oh when you are not on irc at all?
17:01:39 <pikhq> whtspc: hg clone https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg egobot/
17:01:47 <whtspc> yes that's what I mean
17:02:48 <whtspc> pikhq: allthough I'm interested in esolangs, I'm not big computer-nerd
17:03:02 <whtspc> what can I do with that?
17:03:29 <oerjan> if you _were_ a big computer nerd, you could probably change the code to make it standalone
17:03:47 <whtspc> I hoped someone already did :)
17:04:20 * oerjan isn't a big enough computer nerd himself to do that
17:04:36 <oerjan> even if i program some esothings
17:06:23 <whtspc> Ok thanks anyway, I'll try to make some kind of multiple language interpreter myself, I think a not-nerd should be able to do that
17:09:03 <whtspc> I'll move back into anonymity now, speak to you someday, thanks!
17:09:17 <oerjan> whtspc: those are usually called "shells" ;D
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19:13:58 <ehird> where i was: sleeping
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19:19:07 <ehird> 21:35:01 <Patashu> word on the street is that it's being rewritten to run with all 21 lengths, then with one of the program's polarity flipped, then the remaining 21 lengths
19:21:04 <ehird> 21:50:29 <psygnisfive> thought experiments are fun
19:21:04 <ehird> 21:50:38 <psygnisfive> especially if you put on thought lab coats and use thought chemicals
19:21:10 <ehird> truer words have never been spoken
19:24:25 <ehird> 22:02:38 <Patashu> I don't know any perl :(
19:24:25 <ehird> 22:02:42 <Patashu> only know visual basic and jav
19:24:26 <ehird> 22:02:43 <Patashu> +a
19:24:28 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:28:09 <ehird> 22:18:52 <whoppix> Thing I was wondering about.. If one has a simple state machine, like f.ex. brainfuck, shouldn't it be relatively easy to detect infinite loops, by checksumming the machines state at the start of a loop, and after each iteration, check if the state (or any state in that loop) recurred?
19:28:10 <ehird> 22:19:03 <whoppix> Might be that I'm thinking wrong, I'm pretty tired already :)
19:28:27 <ehird> you can't do it on a turing machine, for a turing machine
19:28:38 <ehird> you can do it on a turing machine for any finite program
19:28:47 <ehird> Patashu is evry wrong
19:28:56 <ehird> 22:21:59 <pikhq> And that method would fail with +[>+]
19:29:36 <ehird> 22:24:01 <psygnisfive> pikhq: thats because all non-TMs halt :P
19:29:39 <pikhq> ehird: Yes. After that I noted that the halting problem is solvable on a finite state machine.
19:29:46 <ehird> Absolutely incorrect, psygnisfive.
19:29:51 <ehird> Please don't say such stupid things.
19:29:57 <pikhq> *For* a finite state machine.
19:30:21 <ehird> 22:27:23 <pikhq> ((lambda (x x)) (lambda (x x))) ;!
19:30:38 <ehird> pikhq: that's fucked syntax
19:30:47 <ehird> in Scheme, that takes two arguments, both called x, and then syntax errors.
19:31:03 <ehird> (\x.x x)(\x.x x) -> (\x.x x)(\x.x x)
19:31:06 <ehird> so it's very state-repeating
19:31:09 <pikhq> I meant ((lambda x (x x)) (lambda x (x x))), of course.
19:31:22 <ehird> 22:29:43 <Patashu> if it's modified to run all tape lengths and both polarities
19:31:23 <ehird> 22:29:50 <Patashu> should all tape length matches have equal weighting?
19:31:28 <ehird> specialization is for insects
19:31:34 <ehird> pikhq: (lambda (x) (x x)), for Scheme
19:31:45 <ehird> 22:30:35 <psygnisfive> anything that doesnt halt /is/ a turing machine, just not a UNIVERSAL turing machine.
19:31:48 <ehird> ..................
19:31:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: where do your definitions come from?
19:32:03 <pikhq> I meant (x){x x} (x){x x}
19:32:21 <ehird> pikhq: No, you meant (λx. x x)(λx. x x)
19:33:16 <ehird> heh, this no-more-than-80-columns-and-four-indentations rule is helping my code a lot
19:33:24 <ehird> since I keep having to split functions :D
19:35:57 <ehird> 22:31:56 <psygnisfive> ignoring, ofcourse, trivial non-halting behavior like S -> S or similar.
19:36:06 <ehird> "ignoring the whole point"
19:37:16 <ehird> 22:35:24 <whoppix> leonid_, increase the current cell, decrease it until its zero, increase it...
19:37:19 <ehird> the loop ends when it's zero
19:37:34 <ehird> [+[-]] = while(cell){cell++;while(cell){cell--;}}
19:37:40 <ehird> ofc the outer while only runs once
19:45:13 <AnMaster> how would you translate this bf loop to a polynomial [-->+<] ?
19:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe you can help here
19:46:45 <AnMaster> to me it seems to be a form of division
19:46:47 <ehird> AnMaster: well, let's analyze the iteration
19:47:06 <ehird> while(0){0-2, 1+1}
19:47:14 <ehird> (where x+y is ptr+x = y)
19:47:18 <ehird> AnMaster: okay, so
19:47:23 <ehird> AnMaster: we decrease by two
19:47:33 <ehird> AnMaster: so, that is basically
19:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: this is general, for example:
19:48:05 <ehird> [x] = value of cell x
19:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: [-->+<] is
19:48:22 <ehird> times([0]/2){[1]+=1}; [0]=0;
19:48:26 <ehird> AnMaster: [->+<] is
19:48:33 <ehird> times([0]/1){[1]+=1};[0]=0;
19:48:38 <ehird> AnMaster: since x/1 = x, it works
19:48:43 <ehird> AnMaster: but do you see?
19:48:56 <AnMaster> but how do you avoid iterations in that times?
19:49:16 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, i see
19:49:31 <ehird> AnMaster: well, just do it as if it decremented one. then divide the values by 2
19:49:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I would expect [->++<] to be compiled to: p[1] = 2 * p[0]; p[0] = 0;
19:49:49 <ehird> AnMaster: we're talking about [-->+<]
19:49:56 <ehird> which is p[1] = p[0]/2;
19:50:07 <ehird> AnMaster: but, we need to handle odd numbers
19:50:18 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=1
19:50:27 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=255
19:50:50 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=253
19:50:51 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=251
19:50:56 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=249
19:51:09 <ehird> [-->+<] p[1]+=1, p[0]=1
19:51:18 <ehird> AnMaster: so we can conclude that
19:51:20 <ehird> if the number is odd
19:51:30 <ehird> AnMaster: so, it turns into
19:51:44 <ehird> if (p[0]%2==0){p[1]+=p[0]/2;p[0]=0;}else{for(;;);}
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19:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say we have one that must be finite then, as a better example. Like [--->+<]
19:52:07 <ehird> AnMaster: that doesn't have to be finite
19:52:15 <ehird> it's infinite if (cell % 3)!+0
19:52:42 <AnMaster> ehird, with 256-wrapping cells it is always finite
19:53:00 <ehird> AnMaster: the extended gcd stuff?
19:53:03 <ehird> AnMaster: well, then, it's just
19:53:07 <AnMaster> might take more than one crossing of 256
19:53:14 <ehird> AnMaster: lemme write a program to trace it
19:53:27 <ehird> AnMaster: let's say the value is 4
19:54:14 <AnMaster> ehird, if (positive_index_cell_diff%2 == 1) it is finite. Where -3 is thus 253.
19:54:48 <ehird> AnMaster: end values are
19:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I can run it for another starting value
19:55:21 <ehird> AnMaster: how about [0]=16, [1]=0?
19:55:49 <ehird> AnMaster: for [0]=4, [1]=172 at the end
19:55:59 <ehird> AnMaster: for [0]=16, [1]=176 at the end
19:56:31 <ehird> AnMaster: so, let's try with 2
19:56:35 <AnMaster> but question is, can you know this if you don't know what [0] is at compile time. I mean "know" here as in "know what arithmetic operation to turn it into"
19:56:35 <ehird> which is the smallest non-trivial even number
19:56:38 <ehird> ie the one that actually loops
19:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, for n=2, it loops 86 times
19:57:06 <ehird> 0-based indexing throwing me off
19:57:13 <ehird> AnMaster: it's probably some modulo thing
19:57:17 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> 0-based indexing throwing me off" <-- you aren't alone
19:57:26 <ehird> yeah I always have to stop and think
19:58:01 <ehird> AnMaster: now, it should be calculating 2/3
19:58:15 <AnMaster> I can manage 0-based arrays pretty well. I kind of "learnt" the important edge cases. Anything else that is zero indexed though...
19:58:31 <AnMaster> ehird, question was. Does that actually map to /3... hm
19:58:35 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, absolutely
19:58:38 <ehird> it's integer division by 3
19:59:13 <ehird> >> while _0!=0; puts "[0]=#{_0} [1]=#{_1} -> [0]=#{_0 = (_0-3)%256} [1]=#{_1 += 1}" end
19:59:14 <ehird> [0]=9 [1]=0 -> [0]=6 [1]=1
19:59:16 <ehird> [0]=6 [1]=1 -> [0]=3 [1]=2
19:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, can't map to an integer polynomial then. Expression sure. But not integer polynomial
19:59:18 <ehird> [0]=3 [1]=2 -> [0]=0 [1]=3
19:59:36 <ehird> yeah well, "polynomial" in bf optimization just means "constant expression on tape cells" :P
19:59:46 <ehird> now if only oerjan was here
20:00:02 <ehird> i'm sure there's an easy way to figure this out
20:00:07 <ehird> AnMaster: btw for [0]=1, [1]=171
20:00:18 <ehird> and for [0]=4, [1]=172 as I said
20:00:19 <AnMaster> ehird, so you mean I coded the "integer polynomial library" for nothing? With the distributive laws and simplification and so on
20:00:29 <ehird> AnMaster: haha, did you actually do that?
20:00:51 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. It handles addition and multiplications of two polynomials too
20:01:10 <ehird> AnMaster: [0]=5 → [1]=87, [0]=8 → [1]=88
20:01:24 <ehird> perhaps [0]=(N/2)-1 → [1]=(result_of_N)-1
20:01:31 <AnMaster> ehird, about 200 lines of erlang code, including the "special foldl" for generating backend output
20:01:43 <ehird> perhaps [0]=(N/2)+1 → [1]=(result_of_N)-1
20:02:01 <ehird> AnMaster: for non-divisors here)
20:02:09 <ehird> 20:00 ehird: AnMaster: btw for [0]=1, [1]=171
20:02:09 <ehird> 20:00 ehird: and for [0]=4, [1]=172 as I said
20:02:13 <ehird> 20:01 ehird: AnMaster: [0]=5 → [1]=87, [0]=8 → [1]=88
20:02:56 <ehird> AnMaster: so sometimes it's +1, sometimes it's -1
20:02:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I can handle loop with +1/-1 for index cell and which only contains adds/sets/"other polynomials"
20:03:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so not trivial integer division then?
20:03:43 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, it's trivial integer division if [0] % N == 0
20:03:47 <ehird> as in, if it divides properly
20:03:54 <ehird> it's just the edge-case that produces weird shit
20:04:02 <ehird> edge-case being [0]%N!=0
20:04:39 <ehird> AnMaster: number of -s
20:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, problem if, if a compiler handles everything but edge cases just fine then you get GCC.
20:04:52 <ehird> it's just weird shit
20:04:58 <ehird> i mean, it's not an edge case in the code
20:05:04 <ehird> but it's an edge-case in the intention of the code
20:05:22 <ehird> AnMaster: i think esotope detects division
20:05:29 <AnMaster> if I know the number of iterations using a polynomial is pointless
20:05:54 <AnMaster> lists:flatten(lists:duplication(NumberOfIterations,BodyOfLoop))
20:06:01 <AnMaster> and then insert that where the loop was
20:06:09 <ehird> this is very interesting
20:06:41 <ehird> the edge case here
20:06:45 <ehird> the values it produces
20:06:48 <AnMaster> brb need to get some cookie or something
20:07:08 <ehird> AnMaster: the life of a bf joust implementor is much easier
20:07:12 <ehird> since we absolutely cannot optimize :)
20:07:22 <ehird> and i_keelst_thou died
20:07:36 <ehird> and your randomness is fucking up everything :D (see logs)
20:07:44 <ehird> before AnMaster says anything, yes I'm coding on my interp
20:08:46 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
20:09:05 <ehird> i'm at the boring bit now
20:09:05 <AnMaster> wanted: Garlic and Bacon cookie.
20:09:07 <ehird> writing the interp loop :)
20:09:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Ohmigod.
20:09:20 <ehird> AnMaster: You should warn me before saying such amazing things.
20:09:32 <ehird> I might die of shock
20:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, Plus I would have to warn all the time
20:09:44 <GregorR-L> ais who isn't here: srandom and random should be the same on any system, but my hash is different on 32- and 64-bit systems, so you need to be on 64-bit to get the same result.
20:10:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: the life of a bf joust implementor is much easier <ehird> since we absolutely cannot optimize :) <-- yeah, but I don't have to care about timing and running unoptimised code fast
20:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, heck, I don't even have to care about running fast. As long as the generated output is fast.
20:11:10 <AnMaster> in-between is slow as shit. ~40 seconds for lostking
20:11:20 <ehird> AnMaster: mine has it even worse than egojoust
20:11:25 <ehird> egojoust just has to run every battle once
20:11:29 <ehird> i have to run each battle 42 times
20:11:33 <ehird> and be just as fast if not faster
20:11:52 <ehird> i may need to enroll your cfunge microöptimization skills, AnMaster
20:11:59 <AnMaster> rather, based on the old jousting
20:12:04 <ehird> AnMaster: riding on pigs, waving bacon at each other
20:12:10 <ehird> sounds more like a mating ritual than a fight.
20:12:25 <AnMaster> :D I worked out the name for it before the implementation.
20:12:45 <AnMaster> which means the name sounds awsome, but I have no idea how it would work.
20:12:58 <ehird> I meant prebacon, of course
20:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what about garlic joust
20:13:17 <ehird> AnMaster: riding on pieces of garlic, waving garlic at each other
20:13:20 <ehird> there may be a slight movement problem
20:13:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I don't think that could work
20:13:36 <AnMaster> what about using the smell of it instead
20:13:47 <AnMaster> the jousters must not eat garlic before
20:13:52 <ehird> AnMaster: "make your opponent's eye water".
20:13:54 <ehird> while riding on a horse.
20:13:55 <AnMaster> so they can experience the full smell of it
20:14:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, or a gunniea pig (sp?)
20:14:34 <ehird> btw i have a guinea pig and i can tell you that you'd be stupid to try and test on them
20:14:46 <ehird> impossible to catch and escape all the time
20:14:52 <ehird> test on them as in labs, I mean
20:14:58 <ehird> so it's a bad phrase :)
20:15:06 <ehird> ah, uh, putting a tape element in the match structure and allocating it may help my interp compile
20:16:03 <AnMaster> ehird, still going for the polarity thing?
20:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: of course
20:16:17 <ehird> AnMaster: yay, it runs 100k cycles instantly
20:16:21 <ehird> ofc, it doesn't handle wins or anything yet
20:16:28 <ehird> and the loop logic is ordering-sensitive
20:16:29 <AnMaster> ehird, adding that will slow it down
20:16:34 <ehird> AnMaster: not by much
20:16:40 <ehird> just a branch or two each iteration
20:17:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> and the loop logic is ordering-sensitive <-- err. Forgive my ignorance. But what the hell does this means in the context of BF loops
20:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: if one program does + and the other does [
20:17:19 <ehird> the program that would do + does [
20:17:28 <AnMaster> isn't it checked at start of loop?
20:17:36 <ehird> AnMaster: the two programs run simultaneously
20:17:40 <ehird> (a,b) matchup = (b,a) matchup
20:17:53 <ehird> i haven't added that yet
20:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, saving it would slow you down
20:18:11 <AnMaster> so try to work it out backwards
20:18:11 <ehird> AnMaster: dude. by 1 cycle.
20:18:29 <AnMaster> only overhead if there actually is a loop then
20:19:10 <ehird> ./lance 0.00s user 0.00s system 73% cpu 0.004 total
20:19:12 <ehird> i'm sure I can spare a few more miliseconds
20:19:39 <AnMaster> ehird, shouldn't the two input files be listed there too
20:19:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: run 200k cycles
20:19:43 <ehird> although not completely
20:19:45 <ehird> AnMaster: it's debugging code
20:19:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: err, 100k
20:19:50 <GregorR-L> Of what? You didn't give it any programs :P
20:19:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's my interp.
20:19:58 <ehird> it has built in ones
20:20:00 <ehird> it's testing code.
20:20:11 <ehird> but [>[-]+] and >+[]<[-]
20:20:15 <AnMaster> interpreter with built in programs!
20:20:20 <ehird> AnMaster: currently a total 42 match would take 0.168 seconds
20:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: and remember
20:20:45 <ehird> there isn't any win logic
20:20:48 <ehird> so it runs forever
20:20:52 <ehird> admittedly, they probably just nop forever
20:21:10 <ehird> AnMaster: so if there's 10 other programs on a hill, and we run a new program for every polarity/tapelength change (which we won't)
20:21:12 <AnMaster> ehird, do you pre-expand * and %
20:21:15 <ehird> adding a new warrior would take 1.68 seconds
20:21:18 <ehird> which is just fine
20:21:28 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I'm going to use nescience's method which avoids expanding them altogether
20:21:33 <ehird> don't do anything with them atm
20:22:01 <ehird> AnMaster: hard to understand is what it is
20:22:29 <AnMaster> I'd guess it it would be interpret the code without expanding it
20:22:30 <ehird> i can't, i don't understand it.
20:22:34 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much
20:23:30 <AnMaster> (+)*3 would then do get_next_instruction(), which would notice at the ) that there are some "not actually expanded" expansions left.
20:23:49 <AnMaster> seems simple enough to handle ({}) too that way
20:24:06 <AnMaster> I think it would possibly be slower for short programs though
20:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, is that what you meant?
20:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, do you understand what I mean though?
20:27:40 <AnMaster> nescience, was the above what you meant
20:27:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also how would you implement it if you didn't understand it
20:28:10 <ehird> AnMaster: difficultly
20:28:16 <bsmntbombdood> it would seem that hash tables are vulnerable to denial of service attacks
20:28:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that is why I haven't used extended gcd for polynoms yet!
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20:28:41 <AnMaster> because I don't understand the maths behind it
20:28:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: s/tables //
20:28:53 <ehird> s/hash /hash functions /
20:29:16 <AnMaster> ehird, not cryptographically secure hash tables.
20:29:33 <ehird> AnMaster: hash functions are inevitably DoSable
20:29:45 <ehird> pigeonhole problem
20:29:59 <AnMaster> yes. But good luck doing that for something like sha512
20:30:13 <ehird> i don't think you understand.
20:30:26 <ehird> AnMaster: btw sha-1 is being attacked, sha-2 is next.
20:30:26 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: you can't use all 512 bits for indexing your table
20:30:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no I don't understand why you did "<ehird> bsmntbombdood: s/tables // <ehird> s/hash /hash functions /"
20:30:36 <ehird> brute force can only go far— and what bsmntbombdood said.
20:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, and ok. What about Whirlpool.
20:30:46 <bsmntbombdood> you'll only end up having to collide 32 bits or so, which is very easy
20:30:50 <ehird> you need a 64-bit hash function
20:30:58 <ehird> or 128-bit if you have a weird supercomputer
20:30:58 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_whoops: 14.4
20:31:11 <nescience> not many using something susceptible to that now i guess
20:31:18 <AnMaster> nescience, ah, care to explain what you meant then above
20:31:44 <ehird> !bfjoust spoohw (-)*127>+[]<[[-+]+]
20:31:55 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_spoohw: 15.1
20:32:22 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_whoops: 13.6
20:32:52 <nescience> delay a beat because of double brackets
20:32:53 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_whoops: 14.4
20:33:29 <ehird> nescience: explain to AnMaster the avoid-expanding thang
20:33:40 <nescience> also lol i didn't notice there was already a 'whoops'
20:34:47 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust spleen (>(+)*128>(-)*128)*5
20:34:58 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_spleen: 8.0
20:35:00 <nescience> for the case of ({})%N, evaluating left to right as normal, you should behave as follows:
20:35:25 <nescience> when you encounter {, increase a counter; if the counter is equal to N, proceed on, else jump back to (
20:35:38 <nescience> when you encounter ), decrease the counter; if it is equal to 0, proceed on, else jump back to }
20:35:50 <nescience> otherwise handle [] brackets normally, they can jump back and forth across {} with no trouble
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20:36:39 <ehird> nescience: hm, how is } handled there?
20:37:20 <ehird> nescience: how does egojoust handle (a{b}c)*N, I wonder?
20:37:23 <ehird> ignore the { and }?
20:37:39 <GregorR-L> Or, more accurately, repeat them in the output :P
20:37:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: does it still parse them as instructions
20:37:48 <ehird> but just treat them as nops?
20:38:35 <ehird> it just seems a pain, since you have to delay parsing until )
20:38:53 <nescience> yeah, you have to know if you have a %loop or a *loop
20:39:00 <nescience> i had it in mind to pre-process the program
20:39:01 <ehird> nescience: also, you can treat them as invisible nops
20:39:04 <nescience> and match up all the brackets, setting pointers
20:39:11 <ehird> "when {, perform next operation"
20:39:14 <nescience> yes, but { needs to do more than nop
20:39:25 <ehird> nescience: not when you're in a * loop
20:39:29 <ehird> which is the case I meant
20:39:32 <ehird> you can have nops that last 0 cycles
20:39:38 <ehird> by simply making them do "run-next-cycle"
20:39:44 <ehird> which seems like the simplest way to parse this
20:40:10 <nescience> it is probably possible to allow constructs of the form
20:40:34 <nescience> i mean, supposing the brackets are balanced
20:40:37 <Deewiant> http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how%20to%20program
20:40:48 <ehird> Deewiant: BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
20:40:51 <nescience> actually, i'm unsure but i think that all you'd have to do to make that work is not discard your working counter
20:40:53 <ehird> ahahahhahaahahahaahahahaaa
20:41:22 <ehird> nescience: you could make (a[)*Nb(]c)*N work, by transforming it into (a[{b}]c)*N behind the scenes
20:41:26 <ehird> i.e., just having that as an internal syntax
20:41:31 <ehird> just for () including [/]
20:41:38 <ehird> orthogonality++, stillworks++
20:42:15 <nescience> you could, but i think the syntax is more confusing
20:42:22 <nescience> and you have extra syntax constraints (the Ns must match)
20:42:54 <ehird> nescience: not really
20:43:01 <ehird> nescience: i mean, intuitively, expansions happen beforehand
20:43:25 <ehird> nescience: which is, of course, an unmatched [
20:43:31 <ehird> you could just report it as that
20:49:34 <nescience> to be honest i don't like the ({}) syntax much
20:50:08 <nescience> people will be tempted to do something like
20:50:39 <nescience> which is still handlable without expanding, but would require more work
20:50:48 <nescience> and doesn't convert directly to the other syntax
20:51:21 <ehird> nescience: that is nice, though
20:51:28 <ehird> can you even do that easily with ({})?
20:51:47 <nescience> you know what might make things more pleasant to look at btw
20:51:58 <nescience> but if no () only apply it to the last char
20:52:26 <nescience> you could probably remove the * entirely
20:52:34 <nescience> if you assume decimal digits are multipliers
20:52:48 <nescience> in that case, i might be more tempted to agree with you to getting rid of ({})
20:52:52 <nescience> but parsing would be a lot more complicated
20:53:26 <nescience> you'd probably also have to "scan" ahead when processing
20:53:36 <ehird> that's LR(something)
20:53:38 <nescience> you can't just jump directly to the same bracket
20:53:51 <ehird> nescience: if you don't allow 0,
20:53:54 <nescience> that's the nice thing about it, you don't need any special handling for []
20:53:56 <ehird> you can just parse a number as "repeat last command"
20:54:20 <ehird> nescience: no, that's impossible
20:54:25 <ehird> +0 -> +, repeat -1
20:54:29 <ehird> i'm talking about avoiding lookahead
20:54:40 <nescience> you won't be able to avoid lookahead if you get rid of ({})
20:54:49 <nescience> well, you'll have more of it than otherwise
20:55:21 <nescience> it wouldn't be before execution, it'd be after
20:55:27 <nescience> but you'd have a lot more scanning instead of direct jumps
20:55:28 <ehird> nescience: i mean trivial syntactic overhead
20:55:36 <ehird> instead of + looking for a number
20:55:42 <ehird> then a repeat node
20:56:28 <AnMaster> nescience, that seems simple enough
20:56:28 <nescience> well, if you want to avoid lookahead you could always put the digit *before* the code to be repeated
20:57:34 <ehird> nescience: we just need a metalanguage ;0
20:57:51 <nescience> AnMaster: it is, it's just a little confusing to sit down and think about it and realize how simple it is :P
20:58:25 <AnMaster> yeah, having to do that is confusingly retarded ;P
21:09:09 <AnMaster> <nescience> ([)*4a(])*2b(])*2c <-- it is useful probably
21:11:50 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, optimisation is the root of all evil
21:12:06 <AnMaster> don't optimise until you profiled and found it was needed
21:12:08 <ehird> AnMaster: stupidest thing I've ever heard.
21:12:17 <ehird> 21:11 AnMaster: bsmntbombdood, optimisation is the root of all evil
21:12:24 <ehird> i give you the prize of Most Distorting Misquotation of Knuth
21:12:28 <ehird> AnMaster: hahahahaha
21:12:31 <nescience> AnMaster: not so useful that you can't just write it like
21:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes I know it is a misquote
21:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I dropped the premature intentionally
21:13:02 <ehird> AnMaster: you're very stupid. :)
21:13:41 <AnMaster> ehird, like... knowing that "or real part less than zero" doesn't mean a number is imaginary?
21:13:50 <nescience> but it's confusing as hell to do so :P
21:14:18 <ehird> AnMaster: wow, you really are grasping at straws. for one, my position was historically supported; I didn't realize the definition had changed. for two, you couldn't fucking figure out how the extended euclid algorithm works
21:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, nor could you figure out ({}) yourself?
21:14:46 <ehird> I know how ({}) works.
21:14:56 <ehird> nescience was in a rush when he explained his method to me yesterday.
21:15:01 <ehird> Therefore it came out garbled
21:15:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it was indeed what I thought it was
21:15:16 <nescience> or really anyone else, so? it's just a matter of how much work you wanted to put in
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21:15:33 <AnMaster> nescience, sure do. About jumping to matching ] can be done across {} (assuming no unbalanced [] in {}
21:16:15 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 14.9
21:16:24 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test ++(++{[++]}++)%2
21:16:25 <ehird> that's not what he was talking about. that was one aspect of it
21:16:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:16:35 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 10.6
21:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to test something in the parser
21:16:47 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test ++(+[+{[++]}+]+)%2
21:16:57 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 12.1
21:16:59 <ehird> how can you parse that incorrectly
21:17:05 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test ++[(+[+{++[}+]+)]%2
21:17:11 <AnMaster> !bfjoust test ++[(+[+{++[}+]+)%2]
21:17:22 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 15.6
21:17:22 <EgoBot> Score for AnMaster_test: 15.6
21:17:36 <ehird> the latter one is invalid
21:17:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. And I was hoping for "yet another segv bug"
21:18:06 <ehird> so now you're flinging shit at GregorR-L's implementation too?
21:18:10 <ehird> you're really on a jackass roll here
21:19:08 <AnMaster> ehird, Plus, a true malicious user could abuse bugs. Thus it is best if they are uncovered and fixed before.
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21:19:24 <ehird> nescience: am I in an alternate universe where AnMaster just said that?
21:19:28 <ehird> i mean clog thinks he said it too
21:19:32 <ehird> but it could be quantum fluctuations
21:19:47 <ehird> i don't think a universe where he actually said that could exist without ending due to extreme hilarity
21:20:04 <AnMaster> if an interpreter crashes on malformed input resulting in hill messing up. That is a bug
21:20:25 <nescience> i think i maybe worked out the details about repeating with unbalanced repetitions and brackets
21:21:00 <nescience> but i think you want to keep a decrementing depth counter
21:21:08 <nescience> since the first repetitions of [ are the "outside-est" ones
21:21:18 <nescience> then you seek, and dec for every ] or repeated ]
21:21:29 <nescience> until your counter is less than one you hit
21:21:44 <nescience> seems like more work than it's worth
21:21:46 <psygnisfive> you would do well to read the whole collection of things i said before responding to individual statements
21:22:15 <ehird> ooh, i pissed off psygnisfive
21:22:19 <psygnisfive> since i quickly recognized that trivial loops are ofcourse possible in non-TMs.
21:22:19 <nescience> basically the problem you have is when skipping []s
21:22:21 <ehird> i logread this way, psygnisfive, so phooey :)
21:22:38 <psygnisfive> not pissed off, you're just responding to things that dont need response.
21:23:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: your mom
21:23:44 <nescience> then you just have to locate the proper depth
21:23:52 <psygnisfive> and the real point, ehird, was that some kinds of infinite loops are detectable and avoidable, and those happen to be the kinds that do not require TMs.
21:23:54 <nescience> it would get possibly tricky if you encounter something like
21:24:14 <ehird> psygnisfive: you can detect an infinite loop on an old 386 using a high-end server, probably
21:24:16 <ehird> for almost all applications
21:24:21 <ehird> so it is quite practical
21:24:29 <ehird> and you need a TM to really check finite machines
21:24:34 <ehird> and if you have a TM, why use finite machines?
21:25:36 <psygnisfive> im going to design a language that compiles into JS. o.o;
21:25:47 <ehird> been done 834573495 times
21:25:51 <ehird> there are scheme impls in js
21:25:54 <ehird> that compile to js
21:26:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> i logread this way, psygnisfive, so phooey :) <-- I completely understand why psygnisfive is irritated. The same way of your "respond before you read it all" have irritated me too.
21:26:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Waaah! Bitch some more :). And I hope you complain to ais523 about it, too; he does it in Agora - replies as soon as he reads a mail, despite it being answered one after.
21:26:56 <ehird> But you criticizing ais523 would probably mark the second coming of jesus.
21:27:11 <AnMaster> ehird, luckily I'm not involved in Agora
21:27:21 <psygnisfive> i think the language im going to design is going to be heavily small-talky
21:27:22 <AnMaster> I would however do it if I was affected by it.
21:27:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: there are smalltalks in JS, iirc
21:27:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and ais doesn't log read
21:27:56 <ehird> AnMaster: thankfully I don't care what you think about my logreading responses.
21:28:08 <ehird> don't read them if you don't like 'em
21:28:23 <GregorR-L> #esoteric, the opera: AnMaster comes onto stage and says something incomprehensible. <ehird> You're so stuuuuuupid! <AnMaster> You're so stuuuuuupid. <both> You're so stuuuuuuuuuupid! (harmonizing)
21:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and thankfully I don't care what you think about my multiple naming of the similar programs either
21:28:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: Fairly accurate.
21:28:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: One correction.
21:28:57 <ehird> <ehird> should be <Righteous warrior of truth and sanity, ehird>
21:29:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think he wasn't aiming for a parody
21:29:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I was joking.
21:29:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, me responding to logreads doesn't affect anyone else. Cluttering the hill with mututally-drawing does.
21:29:39 <ehird> *mutually-drawing programs
21:29:55 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Also, me responding to logreads doesn't affect anyone else. Cluttering the hill with mututally-drawing does. <-- yes it does, for whoever got highlighted
21:30:04 <ehird> AnMaster: /ignore.
21:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, if I ignored you I would miss half of the discussions in here
21:30:22 <GregorR-L> Y'know what affects people the most? Arguing about stupid things for endless hours.
21:30:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Youuuuuuuuur loss.
21:30:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: Oh, it's quite fun.
21:42:32 <GregorR-L> Good lawd, there's an update every minute all night
21:44:07 <nescience> somebody enlighten me: what's a TM? :P
21:45:07 <nescience> i have no idea why that didn't snap into place immediately
21:45:20 <ehird> http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?Idx=183 PC/space heater combination! Get yours now!
21:45:25 <nescience> oh hey, microsoft finally coughed up the $$ for my live cash back account
21:54:55 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report-2009-05-29-20-17.avi
21:54:57 <ehird> nescience: are you = myndzi\? :P
21:55:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Quicktime says it's divx.
21:55:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: i don't want to install divx shit
21:55:58 <ehird> can you convert to something more palatable
21:56:02 <GregorR-L> Quicktime requires that you install DivX to decode standard MPEG-4?
21:56:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: it doesn't
21:56:11 <ehird> which is why I asked
21:56:14 <ehird> but it told me to in this case
21:56:21 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: The sorted rankings might've been more interesting to see
21:56:27 <GregorR-L> I didn't even encode it with DivX, I encoded it with lavc, but I set the fourcc to DIVX because most players don't support LVM4
21:56:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: well, do it the LVM4 thing then
21:56:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: what is the video actually of?
21:57:00 <GregorR-L> I'm just gonna stick it in a .mp4 :P
21:57:40 <ehird> !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[-[+]]>)*21
21:57:51 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 29.7
21:58:35 <ehird> 23:56:13 <nooga_> with a little gap
21:58:38 <ehird> since 2004, apparently
21:58:40 <ehird> dunno when the gap was
21:58:47 <ehird> 23:56:54 <Patashu> (<leonid_> i moved from anagol) <-- same
21:58:52 <ehird> was this advertised on anagolf?
21:59:31 <ehird> !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[---[+++]]>)*21
21:59:42 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 31.0
21:59:51 <ehird> 23:57:15 <leonid_> me korea
21:59:55 <ehird> the one that has internet or the one that doesn't have internet :D
21:59:58 <ehird> !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[---[+++]]>)*21
22:00:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: wtfslow
22:00:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 31.0
22:00:36 <ehird> !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[(+)*128]>)*21
22:00:47 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 20.2
22:00:59 <ehird> !bfjoust slowpoke_revengist (>)*9((-)*128[(-)*128]>)*21
22:01:09 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_slowpoke_revengist: 19.8
22:01:12 <ehird> 00:03:47 <leonid_> anagol
22:01:12 <ehird> 00:03:49 <leonid_> more like
22:03:21 <nescience> this is my laptop at work, myndzi is my home client
22:03:52 <ehird> !bfjoust revengist (>)*9[[<+<+>>-]<[>>+<-]+<[>-<[-]]>[->]+]
22:04:02 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_revengist: 15.4
22:04:03 <ehird> hmm that's a terrible algorithm
22:05:27 <GregorR-L> ehird: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report-2009-05-29-20-17.mp4
22:05:40 <ehird> *quicktime freezes*
22:06:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: oh my god the quality is awful
22:06:08 <ehird> it looks like someone soaked the paper
22:06:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: the realigning is kind of irritating, and it should probably be ordered by rank
22:06:33 <ehird> since atm it's just... a bunch of flickering :P
22:06:46 <ehird> also that text rendering looks like... WINDOWS.
22:06:47 <GregorR-L> Let me put my response as plainly as possible.
22:06:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: You forgot "QED"
22:07:55 <Deewiant> ehird: The previous one looked better
22:08:04 <ehird> Deewiant: If only I could watch it
22:08:06 <Deewiant> You have only yourself to blame :-P
22:08:19 <Deewiant> "i don't want to install divx"
22:08:20 <ehird> (I could probably stick it into VLC, but meh.)
22:08:25 <ehird> Deewiant: divx = shitware
22:08:28 <ehird> it adds a bunch of crap to your system
22:08:50 <ehird> Deewiant: i've never told it to and it always does
22:09:05 <GregorR-L> The previous one didn't look better.
22:09:06 <Deewiant> Although admittedly, I haven't installed it since something like over 5 years ago
22:09:20 <Deewiant> Well now it's gone so I can't compare
22:09:41 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm just confused, whatever
22:09:46 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
22:10:03 <GregorR-L> Good lawd why don't people understand this.
22:10:33 <Deewiant> I could understand my player fucking something up for different container formats :-P
22:10:57 <GregorR-L> MPEG-4 is a video format. DivX is an encoder that encodes to MPEG-4. .avi has the unfortunate property that it names things by the encoder, not the format. So when I make MPEG-4 .avi's, I call them DIVX, because that's supported most everywhere and everything recognizes that it's just MPEG-4. Except of course for ShitTime.
22:11:41 <GregorR-L> So the fact that Quicktime wants to install DivX is just stupidity to the power of stupidity.
22:12:26 <GregorR-L> From now on I'm making all my videos with ffhuffv video and snow audio so nobody can play them but me :P
22:12:45 <GregorR-L> Those are both ffmpeg-specific formats.
22:13:02 <GregorR-L> Oh yeah, ffvhuff, not ffhuffv ... I was close :P
22:13:03 <Deewiant> And if snow is ffmpeg then I can play that, too :-P
22:16:33 <ehird> 00:50:45 <nooga_> it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults
22:16:38 <ehird> Also, unfounded assertion.
22:17:49 <ehird> 00:53:06 <nooga_> Polish cursewords are quite complez
22:17:49 <ehird> 00:53:10 <nooga_> complex
22:17:51 <ehird> 00:53:28 <nooga_> you can create new oneswhen you need
22:17:53 <ehird> a metalanguage just for swearing? :D
22:18:42 <GregorR-L> <ehird> 00:50:45 <nooga_> it's unhealthy to drink milk, for adults // this isn't untrue, just outdated.
22:18:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's certainly an assertion provided without foundation.
22:19:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: oh, that'd explain his intelligence
22:19:17 <ehird> INSTANT RIMSHOT DOT COM
22:19:30 <GregorR-L> Cro-magnons were no less intelligent than us, but sure :P
22:19:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: Uh... That's the joke!
22:19:51 <ehird> INSTANT RIMSHOT DOT COM
22:20:30 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=omg+liek+wtf
22:20:40 <ehird> [[Of modern nationalities, Finns are closest to Cro-Magnons in terms of anthropological measurements.]]
22:20:46 <EgoBot> bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,]
22:21:09 <Deewiant> !bfjoust google +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++..----.>>--.-----------..<--.++++++++..--------.<----.>--.>-.<--.<+++.--.>>+.<<++++++.>++.----.<-.>++.+++++.>++++++++++++++++.<<-.>>--.,[>[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>>>[-]++++++++[<---->-]<[[-]>+<]>-[<<[-]>+++++++[<++++++>-]<+>>[-]]<<.[-]<,]
22:21:20 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_google: 6.2
22:21:51 <ehird> !bf_txtgen I am killing you with the power of my mind.
22:21:57 <EgoBot> 444 +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------. [902]
22:22:10 <ehird> !bfjoust telepath_homicider +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.-----------------------
22:22:21 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_telepath_homicider: 3.8
22:22:32 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust i_am_kiling_you_with_the_power_of_my_mind +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>>--.<++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>++++.<<<.>++++++++++.>.>-..<.>++.<--.<<.>>>+++++++++++.<<++++.++++++.<.>>>--.<++.<-.>-.<<.>.>.---.---------------------------------------------------------------------.>-------.-.++++++++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>--.>.<---.<+.>>.<--.>>++.<.<.----.+
22:22:32 <GregorR-L> ++++.<--.>>++++++++++++++.------------------------------------.
22:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_i_am_kiling_you_with_the_power_of_my_mind: 3.8
22:22:56 <GregorR-L> !bf_txtgen oh shit nooooooooooooooooooo
22:23:00 <EgoBot> 119 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>++++++.>-.>++.<<++++.>.+.<+.>>.<+++++.+......<-----..>..<...>......>>-----. [998]
22:23:01 <pikhq> !bftextgen I kill you with the power of my mind!
22:23:24 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust oh_shit_nooooooooooooooooooo +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>++++++.>-.>++.<<++++.>.+.<+.>>.<+++++.+......<-----..>..<...>......>>-----.
22:23:28 <ehird> !bf_txtgen You are dead. Is this awesome? [Y/N]
22:23:30 <EgoBot> 334 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>+.>+.++++++.<<-.>++++++++.>---.<++++.<.>>--------------.+.----.+++.>++.<<<.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.<.>+.>++++.+.<-.<.>>--------.<++++.>++++.<----.----.--.>.>----------.<<<.>>----------.--.>----------------.<-----------.<----------------.<----------------------. [497]
22:23:37 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_oh_shit_nooooooooooooooooooo: 8.5
22:23:39 <ehird> !bfjoust f +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>+.>+.++++++.<<-.>++++++++.>---.<++++.<.>>--------------.+.----.+++.>++.<<<.>>>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++++++++++++++.<.>+.>++++.+.<-.<.>>--------.<++++.>++++.<----.----.--.>.>----------.<<<.>>----------.--.>----------------.<-----------.<----------------.<----------------------.
22:23:50 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_f: 3.8
22:23:57 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen I kill you with the power of my mind!
22:23:59 <EgoBot> 269 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.-----------------------------------------.<++.>>.+++..<.>>+.<<<++++.++++++.>.>>--.<---.>---.<-.<.<-.>>.---.<.<----.-.++++++++.>>.>--.<<.>>---.<+.<.>+++++++.<<++.>.>.>------.<+.>-----.<<+.-----------------------. [802]
22:24:07 <ehird> !bfjoust pikhq +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.-----------------------------------------.<++.>>.+++..<.>>+.<<<++++.++++++.>.>>--.<---.>---.<-.<.<-.>>.---.<.<----.-.++++++++.>>.>--.<<.>>---.<+.<.>+++++++.<<++.>.>.>------.<+.>-----.<<+.-----------------------.
22:24:17 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_pikhq: 3.8
22:24:36 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
22:24:53 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq__: 9.9
22:25:11 <pikhq> MI ESTAS VEJNANTO!
22:26:59 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 0.0
22:27:26 <ehird> that lost against everything
22:27:29 <ehird> how did you do that GregorR-L
22:28:25 <GregorR-L> I prevented anything from running off the tape I guess.
22:29:13 <pikhq> !bfjoust vejni [>+<-]
22:29:17 <pikhq> Might work better.
22:29:24 <EgoBot> Score for pikhq_vejni: 1.8
22:30:06 <pikhq> I think it lost against pooper_scooper
22:30:44 <ehird> 01:14:29 <nooga_> my IQ went from 137 to 50
22:31:06 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:31:13 <pikhq> ehird: I can do that. No sleep for two or three days.
22:31:24 <ehird> to 50? are you sure
22:31:26 <pikhq> Erm. Actually, no.
22:31:37 <pikhq> That just cuts my IQ in third, getting me to dead average.
22:34:03 <GregorR-L> I believe pikhq just claimed his IQ is 300.
22:34:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yeah, I thought that for a second :P
22:34:11 <GregorR-L> Making him the smartest human being who ever lived.
22:34:14 <ehird> I think he means 133.
22:34:34 <ehird> Yeah, he just said his IQ is 300 :P
22:36:03 <ehird> pikhq: so what did you mean :P
22:36:29 <pikhq> I'm not exactly demonstrating that right now. :p
22:37:10 <ehird> 150 is very unusually high; is the source here an internet IQ test? :P
22:37:11 <pikhq> So, chop off a third and it goes down to 100.
22:37:21 <pikhq> ehird: Nope. School-administered.
22:37:45 <pikhq> (some teacher thought I was retarded because I was bored in class and not paying any attention.)
22:37:55 <ehird> pikhq: I'm not sure I believe you. Heck, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/IQ_curve.svg ends at 140 with a tiny, tiny percentage :P
22:38:50 <pikhq> ehird: And then realise that we're all on that end of the bell curve.
22:39:02 <ehird> I don't think that is true.
22:39:12 <ehird> Well, yes, that end.
22:39:46 <pikhq> We find Brainfuck a simple and easy language.
22:40:05 <pikhq> We create and use difficult programming languages because it's entertaining.
22:40:23 <ehird> pikhq: Finding brainfuck simple and easy != intelligence. IQ = pattern matching ability.
22:40:45 <pikhq> There's at least some correlation with IQ there.
22:41:27 <pikhq> Obviously an imperfect one, since the IQ tests are rather flawed, but still.
22:42:35 <ehird> I just find it unlikely that the reading of 150 was unbiased and accurate.
22:43:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: From that line, I deduce that your IQ is 72.94.
22:44:04 <pikhq> I'd say there's about a 1 in a few thousand chance of it being accurate.
22:44:50 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, more likely than winning the lottery.
22:45:15 <pikhq> Significantly more-so, in fact.
22:45:40 <GregorR-L> ehird: Frankly, your discourse occurs to me as malignant and POOPY-HEADED.
22:46:16 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Thy discourse is shameful to us all.
22:46:32 <pikhq> ehird: This is true of thine, as well.
22:47:30 <pikhq> ehird: Wallow in thy shame.
22:47:52 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Thou should consider it, but 'twould require more shame from thee.
22:48:06 <ehird> You're anti-meaningful.
22:48:33 <pikhq> Sweet! I wrapped arround!
22:48:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: doþ, þou mean'st.
22:49:20 <pikhq> GregorR-L: If you use an int for it.
22:49:30 <pikhq> I wonder what sort of society would need an int for IQ.
22:49:56 <ehird> pikhq: By the way, if your IQ _is_ 150, then you're in the 99.997th percentile.
22:50:13 <GregorR-L> That's more common than my chrome allergy.
22:50:23 <ehird> pikhq: a bit over the top 0.1%
22:50:27 <ehird> (=99.9th percentile)
22:50:33 <ehird> * Top 0.00003% (99.99997th percentile; IQ 175 sd15, IQ 180 sd16): OLYMPIQ Society, PARS Society
22:50:37 <ehird> Also known as the "liar society"
22:51:08 <ehird> http://olymp.iqsociety.org/
22:51:12 <ehird> http://www.ELLHNAS.com/
22:51:15 <ehird> Damn, talk about egotistical
22:51:19 <Deewiant> 0.1%? All of Finland and a million elsewhere, then
22:51:33 <pikhq> I tend to regularly be in about the 99.9th percentile on standardised tests given in school. Man, those things were easy.
22:52:03 <ehird> pikhq: [[The ceiling of most standardized (validated and normed) intelligence tests is at around 99.9th percentile. Measurements above this level need — for a credible result — a calculation, extrapolation and interpretation (including observations during the tests and sub-tests) by psychometricians experienced in high IQ testing, and at least two differently designed standardized tests (among these at least one supervised) should be performed.]]
22:52:23 * ehird crushing hopes and dreams since 1995
22:52:30 <pikhq> ehird: Well aware that they stop meaning much in the 140-150 mark. ;)
22:52:34 <GregorR-L> "a Greek medical doctor known also as GrIQ"
22:52:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: His site's opening page is so creepy
22:52:53 <pikhq> "You're really, really fucking smart. Um, yeah. I got nothing."
22:53:03 <ehird> A MILLION GRIQS ALL STARING AT EACH OTHER AND YOU
22:53:59 <ehird> "Sigma VI 99.9999999% QI>196 +6s "
22:54:03 <nescience> i was just trying to explain to someone why a 32 bit prng is insufficient for properly doing card games
22:54:05 <ehird> Membership: 0 people
22:54:20 <nescience> and he tells me "random is random" (referring to mirc's built in PRNG, which is probably just the c library, which is ass)
22:54:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: [[Membership of The Giga Society is ideally open to anyone outscoring .999999999 of the adult population on at least one of the accepted tests.]]
22:54:39 <nescience> i explain why, and then he responds "random is random"
22:54:55 <nescience> he wants me to prove to him that you can make a shuffle algorithm that'll generate teh same deck twice
22:54:56 <GregorR-L> nescience: It uses measurement of the americium particles in your computer.
22:54:58 <ehird> I don't even know what that percentile is
22:55:11 <nescience> it so happens that i have like 5 prngs ported to mirc though so that was easy to do :P
22:55:22 <nescience> lol americium? is that a diss on americans?
22:55:51 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:55:55 <GregorR-L> ........... americium is a common alpha radiator used most popularly in smoke detectors but also in "true" random number generators.
22:56:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:56:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: [[Many think the Giga Society can only have six or seven members as a result of its admission level and the size of the world population. This is false. The top six or seven are not the same individuals at each moment but are being replaced constantly. And as existing members are not expelled when they are no longer among the top six or seven, a multiple of that number of members is possible over time.]]
22:56:42 <ehird> "Not just six or seven. If more intelligent people grow up and the previous ones stay alive, we could have up to TWENTY members!"
22:57:09 <ehird> [[As an aside, the member list is not public]]
22:57:14 <ehird> INTELLIGENCE=SECRECY
22:57:26 <ehird> the owner calls himself the Psychometitor
22:57:40 <nescience> i guess i need to l2periodic table
22:57:40 <ehird> [[one must be careful with information found on do-it-yourself online encyclopaedias, as there is a tendency for megalomaniacs to write themselves into the member list. ]]
22:57:46 <ehird> Your fucking society is based around being megalomaniacal.
22:57:48 <nescience> well anyway, i have no such hardware card
22:57:53 <nescience> and the discussion was about software PRNGS anyway
22:58:20 <pikhq> ehird: I suspect that those eligible include Hawking and some other freak out there.
22:58:36 <pikhq> (Hawking is not likely to be a member; I recall him saying that such societies were just stupid)
22:58:51 <ehird> pikhq: What is it with people thinking that good physicist = overflowing IQ?
22:59:29 <pikhq> ehird: Arg. I heard somewhere that he actually had an absurdly high IQ. Now that I think of it, I was able to find no evidence of such.
22:59:55 <pikhq> DAMMIT, RUMORS. STOP PERMEATING MY BRAIN.
23:02:16 -!- olsner has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
23:02:29 * GregorR-L tries to think of a meaning of per-meat-ing.
23:02:54 <GregorR-L> "I'd like to sell you this meat. How much?" "2 dollars permeating."
23:03:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: "Hey gal, what's the rate?" "50 dollars per meating."
23:03:26 -!- olsner has joined.
23:07:59 <GregorR-L> Maybe '' dropped out of English because it looks so effing similar to 'p' :P
23:08:30 <pikhq> Worked a bit better with þ written like it was in runes.
23:08:48 <pikhq> The little round bit looked more... ›-like.
23:10:07 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but p's were written that way too, then :P
23:11:15 * pikhq pulls up the futhark, hoping to say 'no'.
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23:11:58 <pikhq> Yeah, perþ looks completely different.
23:12:14 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%9B%88
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23:13:37 <pikhq> Wynn looks similar, though.
23:13:38 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%9A%B9
23:16:00 <FireFly> Didn't know there's a Unicode block for runes
23:16:13 <pikhq> FireFly: There's a Unicode block for almost everything.
23:16:19 <GregorR-L> There's a unicode block for fekking ogham.
23:16:59 <pikhq> There's even a proposal for Voynich.
23:19:45 <myndzi\> nobody even knows what it says
23:19:46 <pikhq> Yes, Unicode will probably soon support a script that has been used for exactly one known document.
23:19:51 <pikhq> That nobody understands.
23:20:01 <myndzi\> can't wait to go trollin' forums with that
23:20:22 <Deewiant> That a proposal exists doesn't mean it'll be accepted
23:20:51 <pikhq> Deewiant: It's likely to be included in the next Unicode version, though.
23:21:05 <Deewiant> Whence do you get this "likely"
23:21:42 <myndzi\> if you have that many symbols available and nothing better to do with them..?
23:21:55 <Deewiant> There have been rejected proposals in the past, more sensible ones than Voynich :-P
23:22:05 <myndzi\> they even have unicode butterflies! Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
23:22:18 <Deewiant> For instance, Klingon wasn't accepted
23:22:41 <Deewiant> "2001-May-21, rejected by the UTC as inappropriate for encoding, for multiple reasons stated in L2/01-212. (Lack of evidence of usage in published literature, lack of organized community interest in its standardization, no resolution of potential trademark and copyright issues, question about its status as a cipher rather than a script, and so on.)"
23:22:41 <myndzi\> klingon should totally be accepted
23:22:49 <GregorR-L> And yet, ey do have frikkin Ogham.
23:22:55 <pikhq> Deewiant: It is being reconsidered.
23:23:16 <Deewiant> Yes, I imagine that interest would certainly have increased since 2001
23:24:15 <myndzi\> so yeah. unicode quenya anyone? :(
23:24:21 <pikhq> The Klingon community has since published literature, has a standards organization, and has more importantly started using Klingon script.
23:24:26 <pikhq> myndzi\: It's being considered.
23:25:11 <FireFly> One should make a programming language based on Klingon
23:25:18 <FireFly> But it's probably been done
23:25:37 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Var%27aq
23:25:56 <FireFly> But then again I know nothing 'bout Star Trek :P
23:26:14 <GregorR-L> Damn, it seems an xchat plugin can't catch input before it's sent.
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00:01:35 <GregorR-L> ere, now I have a plugin so all my text is properly ornified.
00:01:58 <pikhq> Nice I just have to be sure to type þat manually.
00:02:02 <GregorR-L> Now at nobody can understand me, I'm trying to maximize e ''s in is sentence.
00:02:15 <pikhq> Fortunately for me, þe compose key makes it raþer easy.
00:02:35 <GregorR-L> Not as easy as just auto-replace :P
00:03:03 <pikhq> True. However, it's not hard to reach down and hit þe Windows key from time to time.
00:04:11 <pikhq> Þy þorniness is amazing. Doest þou concur?
00:04:44 <pikhq> Ah. Þat explains it, þen.
00:05:06 <pikhq> But can you do.. ðis?
00:05:07 <GregorR-L> at's ree key presses for you, right? And one is awkward.
00:05:50 <pikhq> I could stick compose on a somewhat more convenient key. Like, oh, I dunno. Shift key? Backspace?
00:06:23 <pikhq> It's not like I use backspace much; þere's Emacs combos for þat.
00:08:15 <Slereah> Even the passenger gets in trouble! D:þ
00:08:33 <pikhq> Slereah: Vi anakŭ.
00:08:37 <pikhq> Slereah: Vi anakaŭ.
00:08:38 <GregorR-L> Also, ine moer smelle as yonder jackass.
00:09:04 <FireFly> And thine father smelt of elderberries?
00:09:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: But þy moþer was a hamster and þy faþer smelt of elderberries.
00:09:18 -!- inurinternet has joined.
00:09:34 <pikhq> FireFly: Use þine when one would use "mine" and þy when one would use "my".
00:12:43 <pikhq> And yet, m'þinkest þat þy þoughts are limitéd to þe berries of elder. Doest þou þink of oþer þings?
00:13:41 <ehird> 23:19 pikhq: Yes, Unicode will probably soon support a script that has been used for exactly one known document. ← voynich?
00:13:46 <pikhq> Ah, indeed. An interesting statement of þine.
00:14:15 <pikhq> (liþpþ are contagiouþ)
00:14:41 <pikhq> Slereah: Þe letter þorn.
00:15:43 <ehird> voynich in unicode would be nice
00:15:51 <ehird> also klingon; the Bible and hamlet have been published in it iirc
00:16:24 <FireFly> Can one make a thorn rotated 90°, lying on it's round part, with unicode?
00:16:42 <pikhq> Þere's also þe Tragedy of Romeo and Juliet, IIRC.
00:16:57 <ehird> it's not as if unicode's filling up
00:17:15 <GregorR-L> We should use unicode codepoints as IP addresses.
00:18:21 <pikhq> Erm. Never mind. Unicode is a 32-bit encoding.
00:19:52 <ehird> pikhq: ipv6 is 128 isn't it
00:20:31 <ehird> also unicode uses slightly less than 32 bits
00:20:41 <ehird> so you'd have to use a bit over 4 chars
00:21:08 <FireFly> IPv4 would be represented by two Unicode chars? (u0000 to uFFFF)
00:21:23 <ehird> pikhq: unicode assigns 0-1114111
00:21:26 <ehird> 32-bit is 4294967296
00:21:53 <ehird> pikhq: 21-bit is the smallest that can hold unicode
00:22:39 <ehird> pikhq: so you need ~6.095 unicode characters to represent an ipv6 address
00:22:53 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:23:04 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 41.0
00:23:17 <ehird> nescience: how's that one work
00:23:25 <ehird> looks sort of like i_keelst_thou
00:23:31 <ehird> or was it thoust, I forget
00:23:41 <nescience> i don't know, i didn't read that one
00:23:50 <nescience> it skips one or two possible places for speed
00:23:57 <nescience> then decs 127, 128, 129 with pauses and moves to the next
00:24:22 <ehird> nescience: i_keelst_thou is basically set up some decoys, then 21 times, (-)*128, [-], next cell
00:24:31 <ehird> so it advances really slowly, and avoids loopin
00:24:42 <ehird> it just reminded me of it
00:24:49 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:25:00 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 52.6
00:25:25 <ehird> "17th Century Damascus Blades Found to Contain Carbon Nanotubes"
00:25:28 <ehird> Shit, those guys were high-tech.
00:26:06 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.(>(+)*127-.-.)*11
00:26:16 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 0.0
00:26:24 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.>(+)*127-.-.)*11
00:26:35 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 26.3
00:26:35 <ehird> !bfjoust i_keelst_thou_allornothing (>)*16((-)*128.->(+)*128.+>)*11
00:26:43 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:26:46 <EgoBot> Score for ehird_i_keelst_thou_allornothing: 26.9
00:26:54 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 51.4
00:27:09 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:27:20 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 58.7
00:28:44 <ehird> got quite far with my interp today
00:28:59 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*20>(+)*20)*5[>(-)*100[-].+]
00:29:02 <ehird> just needs a bit of fixing, some additional stuff and I can hack up a contest infrastructure
00:29:10 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 27.1
00:29:38 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing ->>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:29:41 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*20>(+)*20)*5[>[-].+]
00:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 46.0
00:30:00 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 47.4
00:30:08 <nescience> !bfjoust allornothing >>(+)*19>(-)*19>>>>>>>>>>>(>(-)*127-.-.)*21
00:30:09 <GregorR-L> Define "contest infrastructure" in is context.
00:30:18 <EgoBot> Score for nescience_allornothing: 55.7
00:30:32 <nescience> he wants to do more than return w/l/t
00:30:55 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>->+)*5[>[-].+]
00:31:07 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 34.3
00:31:22 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*32>(+)*32)*5[>[-].+]
00:31:25 <nescience> by the way, my vote is for something like wins = 5 points, ties = 2 or 3 points, loss = 0 points
00:31:32 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 50.4
00:31:34 <nescience> let's have the program that wins the most on top
00:31:46 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Define "contest infrastructure" in þis context. <--- þ <-- ?
00:31:59 <nescience> but i bet it's not hard and soft th both?
00:32:00 <GregorR-L> Is EVERYBODY against my winning-against-important-programs-is-better style?
00:32:18 <GregorR-L> nescience: Not in Icelandic, but is is English.
00:32:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, that sounds like a good idea!
00:34:03 <GregorR-L> I've decided at e letter orn needs to come back.
00:34:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, therhaths this isn't a very useful way to write
00:34:34 <nooga> i always thought that þ is icelandic th
00:34:38 <GregorR-L> Only because you're not used to e letter orn :P
00:34:50 <GregorR-L> nooga: It is. But it was in English until about 200 years ago.
00:34:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, what has porn got to do with it?
00:35:55 <GregorR-L> But anyway, it's e most recent letter e English alphabet lost.
00:35:59 <GregorR-L> And I'm fighting to get it back! :P
00:36:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, the difference is really small in this font. At this reading distance
00:36:14 <pikhq> Shakespeare probably used it, but þat's about as recent as it gets.
00:36:15 <AnMaster> so I'm just going to read it as p
00:36:18 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: at's perhaps why it's gone :P
00:36:23 <GregorR-L> pikhq: No way Shakespeare used it.
00:36:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: 400-500 years? It's possible.
00:37:05 <pikhq> His work is about as late as it's even possible to guess, þough.
00:37:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, I do have a relative in Minneapolis called Pat. Quite a far off relative.
00:38:01 <pikhq> BTW, there's anoþer letter þat English lost more recently.
00:38:03 * nooga is starting to think about making SADOL based language with less minimal syntax
00:38:22 <pikhq> Art þou familiar wiþ þe long S?
00:38:22 <GregorR-L> Anyway, I was actually asking is: Is everybody against my winning-against-important-enemies-gains-you-more-points ranking system?
00:38:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl.
00:39:35 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Anyway, I was actually asking þis: Is everybody against my winning-against-important-enemies-gains-you-more-points ranking system? <-- yes and no
00:40:04 <ehird> 00:32 GregorR-L: Is EVERYBODY against my winning-against-important-programs-is-better style? ← I support it
00:40:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, what do you think about this simple one?
00:40:23 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: at's not "yes and no", at's firmly against my system :P
00:40:28 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Long s is awesome. :)
00:40:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, define IMPORTANT program
00:40:34 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: at's how e "points" system works, but e "score" system is more complicated.
00:40:44 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: A program which itself has beat a lot of programs.
00:40:56 <GregorR-L> See http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
00:40:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, what exact values used for it
00:41:45 <AnMaster> "This gives the scores a range of 0-100 through convoluted math I choose not to go in to." <-- is that the relevant bit
00:42:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, I want to know the exact forumla for the "is important"
00:42:26 <GregorR-L> e base score is e important part, e score is just multiplied up to put it in a "human" range.
00:42:36 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: at'll counter my t h -> filter :P
00:42:48 <nescience> GregorR-L: i'm not complaining, it works ok
00:42:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, that was the intention
00:42:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I þought þou wert going to use long S?
00:43:00 <nescience> but i think that i prefer the other way is all
00:43:05 <pikhq> A hint: if it's not þe final s, use it. ;)
00:43:22 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, I'm trying to write at as a sed expression :P
00:43:23 <nescience> i voiced it because ehird was talking about (possibly?) redoing the tournament structure
00:43:34 <ehird> and I'm open to suggestions
00:43:52 <GregorR-L> I ink someing in between would probably be better, but I don't ink my system is bad :P
00:44:20 <pikhq> Sweet! I juſt found out what þe compoſe combination for it is. :)
00:44:42 <pikhq> (Þere is not a capital long S)
00:44:42 <ehird> I think your system is pretty good, GregorR-L, but instead of winning against points, it should be win against score. Yes, this is an infinite regress, but if you can solve that it'll probably end up fairer.
00:44:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compose f s
00:44:56 <ehird> Have some sort of base case.
00:44:59 <nescience> two equally good programs can score widely differently
00:45:01 <GregorR-L> ehird: I desperately want to solve at, I haven't found a fixed point.
00:45:03 <nescience> depending on how they do against each other
00:45:06 <nescience> and i don't think that is desirable
00:45:13 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'll toy with stuff when I make my infrastructure ~tomorrow.
00:45:18 <pikhq> Altgr is someþing else entirely.
00:45:19 <nooga> is it good idea to build a lang that allows to define custom infix operators just like functions ?
00:45:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, where do I find the compose key then.....
00:45:37 <pikhq> Altgr is ſomeþing elſe entirely.
00:45:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Your space cadet keyboard.
00:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, assume I don't have one
00:45:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: Moſt keyboards don't have one.
00:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Your life is terrible. Kill yourself.
00:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not as sensitive as you
00:46:11 <ehird> He may have another kb with a compose key.
00:46:13 <pikhq> I bound þe Windows key to compoſe.
00:46:17 <ehird> Using a space cadet keyboard would be hell.
00:46:20 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
00:46:25 <ehird> Tons of useless keys and no F-keys, etc.
00:46:40 <pikhq> keycode 133 = Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key
00:46:43 <pikhq> keycode 134 = Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key Multi_key
00:46:45 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ a conventional OS, I mean.
00:46:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't use F-keys often
00:46:54 <Slereah> I'm in love with that keyboard
00:46:56 <GregorR-L> Anybody elſe want my annoying plugin?
00:47:04 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I'd love it.
00:47:05 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Perfect :) <-- Therfect?
00:47:12 <ehird> AnMaster: still, those greek things, "over strike", a bloody "help" key
00:47:17 <AnMaster> I can't tell the difference in this font
00:47:18 <Slereah> Fuck, it even has turnstiles
00:47:21 <ehird> wouldn't be useful for linux etc
00:47:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, and that doesn't highlight me
00:47:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: (Þe Pyþon infraſtructure ſeems to have problems and cauſe infinite recurſions)
00:47:30 <nooga> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg << wtf, i want one
00:47:39 <ehird> nooga: just buy a used lisp machine
00:47:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me when you fixed so it doesn't mess up highlighting
00:47:50 <ehird> makes more noise than an airplane and is a billion times slower than one, and also expensive
00:47:54 <ehird> but damn is it lovely.
00:47:58 <ehird> (note: i don't have one)
00:48:08 <ehird> nooga: yeah, that's why () are unshifted
00:48:10 <ehird> and [] are shifted
00:48:25 <ehird> i did that change on this os x box before upgrading
00:48:31 <ehird> I use () a lot more than [], personally
00:48:43 <pikhq> BTW, one could juſt as well type 'irßi'. :p
00:49:03 <ehird> Each of these might, in addition, be typed with any combination of the "control", "meta", "hyper", and "super" keys. On this keyboard, it is possible to type over 8,000 different characters. This allowed the user to type very complicated mathematical text, and also to have thousands of single-character commands at their disposal. Many users were actually willing to memorise the command meanings of that many characters if it reduced typing time (this atti
00:49:06 <ehird> tude shaped the interface of Emacs). [2] Other users, however, thought that so many bucky bits was overkill, and objected to this design on the grounds that such a keyboard can require three or four hands[1] to operate.
00:49:10 <ehird> 8,000 key combinations
00:49:18 <GregorR-L> ehird: ſo, got a fixed point ſolution?
00:49:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm thunkin'
00:49:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> nooga: yeah, that's why () are unshifted <ehird> and [] are shifted <-- What layout has [] unshifted!?
00:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: US/UK QWERTY/DVORAK.
00:49:57 <AnMaster> this one has () shifted and [] altgred
00:50:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but even in English () is more common than []!
00:50:16 <ehird> Shifted [] = {}. () are on 9 and 0.
00:50:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Yep, it's stupidus maximus.
00:50:53 <FireFly> [01:50:09] <ehird> [...] () are on 9 and 0.
00:51:07 <FireFly> Yeah, that's hellish when games/stuff use the US/UK layout
00:51:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, in games you can just remap keys usually
00:51:39 <FireFly> Yeah, but if one use standard settings
00:51:50 <FireFly> Try to write a happy smiley, and it's sad
00:52:27 <FireFly> :( is sad, as far as I know?
00:52:28 <AnMaster> input would be read using current layout right?
00:52:44 <AnMaster> as in... it uses whatever OS uses
00:52:52 <GregorR-L> Huh, ſh ſhouldn't have a long s, ſhould it.
00:52:54 <FireFly> Well, I've had stuff which uses US/UK layouts
00:53:17 <FireFly> And overrides system settings, I guess
00:54:03 <FireFly> As in, just like the UK layout
00:54:04 <AnMaster> if you want to read a string you should use the OS layout.
00:54:08 <pikhq> GregorR-L: 'ſh' ſhould have þe long s. However, ſs ſhould not.
00:54:21 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Þe conſtitution ſays oþerwiſe.
00:54:28 <AnMaster> if you are using it for action keys or whatever in a game then it might not work to do so
00:54:36 <AnMaster> rather you want to read it based on position
00:54:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Erm. Þe ſecond 's' ſhouldn't be long in þat ſituation.
00:55:17 <pikhq> nooga: ð, þou meanſt?
00:55:37 <AnMaster> well I guess I HAVE to write that reverse-filter now
00:55:43 <AnMaster> since this is unreadable in this font size
00:55:56 <ehird> 00:53 AnMaster: crappy programming
00:56:01 <ehird> for a game layout, the layout is important
00:56:03 <ehird> not the bound letters
00:56:08 <ehird> so they just reused the code for the chat system, I'd assume
00:56:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Þou ſhould uſe a better font, meþinks.
00:56:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they shouldn't reuse it for chat system idiot
00:56:36 <ehird> AnMaster: You're really angerable. It's funny.
00:56:57 <pikhq> What a coincidence. Þat'ſ what I'm uſing.
00:57:28 <ehird> pikhq: anmaster's display is like 4dpi
00:57:41 <pikhq> Erm. Þinko on “Þat's”.
00:57:58 <pikhq> ehird: Þat's lamer þan fuck.
00:58:11 <ehird> pikhq: Just like AnMaster!
00:58:15 <GregorR-L> OK, I þink I'm done wiþ all my Engliſh language changes.
00:58:16 <ehird> OH BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
00:58:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, so you will revert to normal?
00:58:50 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yeah, I þink you've got it all coveréd.
00:59:02 <nooga> i Þink Þat Þiſ whole ſtyle haſ a future
00:59:28 <pikhq> nooga: You're doing it wrong.
01:00:04 <pikhq> However, I certainly þink þis has a future. If only in þis chatroom.
01:00:15 <GregorR-L> nooga: Only when not at e end of e word.
01:00:27 <pikhq> nooga: Not at the end of a word, not after a ſ.
01:00:50 <pikhq> Oh, and not before an f.
01:01:20 <pikhq> So, one types "ſatisfaction", not "ſatiſfaction".
01:01:40 <pikhq> Alſo, there's not a capital long s.
01:01:57 <AnMaster> what other changes did you make
01:02:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: ae = æ, oe = œ.
01:02:29 <AnMaster> what are the upper case versions
01:02:31 <GregorR-L> I juſt added þe more abſurd changes of þy and þys :P
01:03:26 <AnMaster> "<GregorR-L> Thy face is ugly!"
01:03:40 <pikhq> GregorR-L: In early Engliſh typography, ss = ß.
01:03:45 <pikhq> You could add þat. ;)
01:03:47 <FireFly> AnMaster agrees to the statement?
01:04:09 <FireFly> [02:03:26] <AnMaster> "<GregorR-L> Thy face is ugly!"
01:04:09 <FireFly> [02:03:29] <AnMaster> yes!
01:04:09 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I don't ſee þat anywhere on þis Wikipedia page.
01:04:11 <pikhq> So, it would be "In Congreß Aßembled."
01:04:28 <AnMaster> it was "yes" as in "yes it works"
01:04:33 <pikhq> GregorR-L: http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Blog/Images/TrueCopie_1585_AII.jpg
01:05:52 <pikhq> Early modern, certainly, but definitely þe ſame language.
01:06:45 <FireFly> Heh, no more need to learn german für mich~
01:07:02 <FireFly> Although I still like the language
01:10:09 <pikhq> Gregor. When I copied the firſt one into my browſer, it converted ſ into s.
01:10:38 <pikhq> BTW, ſtop þe replacement for capital S.
01:10:45 <pikhq> Þat ſhould always be S.
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01:11:50 <pikhq> Yeah. It's juſt þat þere's not a long capital S.
01:12:17 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, but þey ſhouldn't have to ſhare a capital wiþ 's' :P
01:13:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: It seems to me like you could go further.
01:13:39 <GregorR-L> ehird: It ſeems to me like you could þink of a fixed point algoriþm for þe hill :P
01:13:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: In that image you linked, the s-as-wavy-f-like-thing is there.
01:14:01 <ehird> And also there are some nicks on top of e and o.
01:14:07 <ehird> (In what looks like "aprrhelfio")
01:14:10 <ehird> Er, what pikhq linked.
01:14:33 <pikhq> ehird: I linkéd þat.
01:14:39 <ehird> Er, what pikhq linked.←
01:14:48 <pikhq> Þose are ſome older ligatures þat you're ſeeing.
01:15:12 <pikhq> LaTeX can output þat wiþ þe right options.
01:15:38 <GregorR-L> But þere is no Unicode characters it ſeems.
01:16:16 <pikhq> No; þat's juſt a typeſetting þing, you ſee.
01:19:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, I made some adjustments
01:25:57 <GregorR-L> Isn't this just s/Þ/Th/g ; s/þ/th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ?
01:26:15 <AnMaster> so it is.. the issue was hooking in properly with irc client
01:26:45 <AnMaster> and I can't do anything about your replace being lossy
01:30:36 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
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01:35:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: It is merely a question, bitch.
01:35:57 <fungot> AnMaster: " people come to visit granny weatherwax?'
01:36:19 <AnMaster> I hate you GregorR for this extra work I had to do
01:36:47 <fungot> AnMaster: the correction appeared to pass unnoticed.
01:37:14 <fungot> AnMaster: ' ten days ago. can't remember where.' lu-tze scanned the sky.
01:38:01 <fungot> AnMaster: ' fine,' said mrs ogg cheerfully. ' and wouldn't it be nice if you didn't do somewhere else. it's a strong nail," said the lecturer in recent
01:38:11 <AnMaster> right. Now it works for every other channel....
01:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you compare strings in python btw... I'm trying to do this in the bouncer...
01:39:29 <AnMaster> ok then that wasn't the issue...
01:42:22 <AnMaster> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 9: ordinal not in range(128)
01:42:35 <ehird> AnMaster: What it says.
01:42:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so how do I operate on unicode in python
01:43:09 <ehird> Using the unicode type and the functions designed for it.
01:43:14 <AnMaster> print for debugging shows 'two words\xc3\x9e \xc3\x9e'
01:43:33 -!- goonx has joined.
01:43:41 <ehird> I wonder where you can get a laptop chassis.
01:43:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess I have to cast it to unicode then...
01:43:43 <goonx> hi, anyone good in brainfuck?
01:43:48 <ehird> AnMaster: "cast"? No.
01:43:54 <ehird> AnMaster: You have to handle encodings.
01:44:09 <goonx> 'cos I have just a theory question
01:44:16 <AnMaster> ehird, print message shows 'two words\xc3\x9e \xc3\x9e'
01:44:32 <AnMaster> ehird, which part. it is very huge
01:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Read the table of contents, goddamn.
01:44:42 <goonx> is it possible to write simply malware code in BF?
01:44:49 <ehird> goonx: ............................ What?
01:44:52 <goonx> or in other esoteric languages?
01:44:57 <ehird> goonx: define malware
01:45:03 <ehird> and why on earth do you want to do this
01:45:05 <GregorR-L> Not generally, þey moſtly have no acceſs to any OS ſervices.
01:45:44 <goonx> i'm like analyzing malware code, so i ask if that code could be written in esoteric languages
01:46:01 <ehird> goonx: By "analyzing malware code", you mean "I want to give BF malware to someone"
01:46:18 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
01:46:35 <ehird> goonx: Okay then, "intrepid malware research specialist"
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01:46:41 <goonx> sometimes i "hunt" for some malwares, download it on my P, and watch how the are running
01:46:58 <ehird> goonx: That involves neither analyzing nor code.
01:47:06 <ehird> That's just theater.
01:47:08 <goonx> like using disassemblers, debugger, hexeditors, etc
01:47:16 <ehird> You din't say that.
01:47:44 <goonx> ehird, could you paraphrase?
01:48:16 <goonx> "That involves neither analyzing nor code." and "That's just theater.", could you rewrite that sencente using another words?
01:48:24 <goonx> sorry, i'm not a native speaker
01:49:28 <ehird> goonx: First one was a reply to [[01:46 goonx: sometimes i "hunt" for some malwares, download it on my P, and watch how the are running ]], saying that what you said doesn't actually mean analyzing and doesn't involve code. "That's just theater" meant: that's just watching it for entertainment. But then you clarified, mentioning disassemblers and debuggers, so I said "you didn't say that". (din't being a variation on didn't for no apparent reson)
01:49:47 <AnMaster> now just to remove the debug output
01:50:34 <goonx> yup, but after I see how they're running, I could see, which programming language was used to write them
01:50:48 <goonx> in most of cases it was ASM, C, C++, Delphi, etc
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01:51:00 <nooga> can you recognize fortran?
01:51:03 <ehird> goonx: Well, in Brainfuck, the most interaction with the non-brainfuck systems you can do is inputting one character and outputting one character (character = letter, symbol etc)
01:51:10 <goonx> have nebver found esoteric language (or my analyzing skills are too low to check that)
01:51:19 <GregorR-L> Well, moſt eſolangs have no acceſs to OS features, and even if þey did nobody would uſe þem for malware :P
01:51:20 <ehird> goonx: Esolangs are generally interpreted, not compiled.
01:51:30 <ehird> What GregorR-L said (although it may be hard to read with his odd letters.)
01:51:36 <nooga> goonx: esolangs aren't quite useful for such tasks
01:51:55 <ehird> pikhq: remember when we talked about high-DPI displays?
01:52:02 <pikhq> ......................... ¿Malware? In Brainfuck?
01:52:12 <goonx> i just asked about it, 'cos it was something like a curiosity for me ;)
01:52:19 <AnMaster> ^ul (Testing: th:þ Th:Þ s:ſ ae:æ Ae:Æ oe:œ Oe:Œ)S
01:52:19 <fungot> Testing: th:þ Th:Þ s:ſ ae:æ Ae:Æ oe:œ Oe:Œ
01:52:24 <ehird> pikhq: I may have occasion to actually buy a >150DPI display quite soon as part of a project.
01:52:29 <AnMaster> <fungot> Testing: th:th Th:Th s:s ae:ae Ae:Ae oe:oe Oe:Oe
01:52:52 <pikhq> goonx: It's kinda impoſsible, aſide from PSOX.
01:52:56 <GregorR-L> Þere are very few 'æ's in Engliſh anyway.
01:52:56 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so say that line again. Lets see if it works for you too
01:53:23 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Þere are in Britiſh Engliſh.
01:53:30 <ehird> pikhq: Specifically, around, say, a 10" display @ 1280x1024. (= 163dpi, 0.155mm dot pitch)
01:53:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, odd... why wasn't eſolangs translated when you said it
01:53:37 <ehird> pikhq: For a "homebrew netbook" project.
01:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: hard/soft s?
01:53:44 <goonx> ok, so thanks for help me :)
01:53:54 <pikhq> "Fœtus", for example.
01:53:55 <Sgeo> I originally had stuff to prevent malware via PSOX.. but ehird removed it
01:53:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Look it up
01:54:04 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes, because it was ridiculous :P
01:54:10 <ehird> pikhq: I'm not sure you can buy such displays, though.
01:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I just do string replace: string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s") <-- why didn't that work once
01:54:22 <ehird> high-dpi stuff seems to tend to be either big or really small
01:54:32 <goonx> if I wanted to write malware to domage, i wouldn't ask here :P
01:54:44 * pikhq goes back to Fullmetal Alchemiſt
01:54:46 <GregorR-L> goonx: And preſumably you wouldn't write it in Brainfuck :P
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01:54:53 <AnMaster> ehird, string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s") still left "eſolangs"
01:55:02 <goonx> esoteric languages are;nt as powerfull ;anguages as C or ASM, where you can do everything you want much easier ;)
01:55:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That should not happen.
01:56:03 <ehird> pikhq: It's not just a ~160dpi display. It's also OLED.
01:56:24 <ehird> I may have to DIY my own display. ;)
01:56:25 <AnMaster> s = string.replace(s, u"þ", "th")
01:56:25 <AnMaster> s = string.replace(s, u"Þ", "Th")
01:56:25 <AnMaster> s = string.replace(s, u"ſ", "s")
01:56:29 <goonx> ok, good night ;), or bye (dunno whch timezone you have :P)
01:56:41 <GregorR-L> !addinterp gregor sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g'
01:56:42 <EgoBot> Interpreter gregor installed.
01:56:45 <AnMaster> also I feel uncomfortable with the mutable variables!
01:56:55 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> !gregor This is in Gregorish!
01:56:55 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> This is in Gregorish!
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01:57:04 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> !addinterp gregor sh sed 's/th/th/g ; s/Th/Th/g ; s/s/s/g ; s/ae/ae/g ; s/Ae/Ae/g ; s/oe/oe/g ; s/Oe/Oe/g' <-- huh?
01:57:05 <ehird> You suffer for your sins.
01:57:12 <ehird> REPENT AND REMOVE THE EVIL
01:57:47 <pikhq> AnMaſter: OBTAIN A BETTER MONITOR, ÞOU IGNOBLE KNAVE!
01:57:58 <GregorR-L> I could encode things by writing th or to represent binary digits 0 and 1 :P
01:58:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, that didn't highlight me for some unknown reason
01:58:17 <AnMaster> even though it looked perfectly normal
01:58:47 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: OBTAIN A BETTER MONITOR, ThOU IGNOBLE KNAVE! <-- your original convert is lossy
01:59:24 <pikhq> AnMaſter: No, it's not. I'm not 'converting'. I am *typing* þorn.
01:59:35 <ehird> Typing pornography
01:59:40 <ehird> Oh yeah, mash my keys harder, bitch.
01:59:44 <pikhq> Alſo, take ſome eßes.
02:00:00 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Alſo, take ſome eßes. <-- fun.. why didn't THAT one convert...
02:00:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: I AM DOING OTHER THINGS BITCH
02:00:20 <GregorR-L> ehird: I'm doing oer bitches, ing!
02:00:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: I THOUGHT YOU WERE FAITHFUL
02:00:45 <pikhq> It's not an ſ. It's an ß.
02:01:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, ... there are two unconverted ones in it
02:03:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh. I win?
02:03:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. What is the secret behind those non-converting ſ
02:03:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compoſe?
02:03:47 <AnMaster> must be a unicode encoding bug
02:03:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Ðo, can you handle ðhis? I am a dæmon of eðnic proportions.
02:03:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't properly translate back
02:04:11 <pikhq> You fail ſomeþing awful.
02:04:46 <pikhq> It damned well better be; I *am* uſing en_US.UTF8 in urxvt.
02:05:25 <Sgeo> :D My setup on EpicMafia is liked by one of the best EM players :D
02:05:30 <pikhq> I laugh in þy general direction, ðou ſimpleton.
02:05:43 <ehird> pikhq: Actually, ð never appears as the first letter.
02:06:13 <pikhq> ehird: Mmkay. Good to know.
02:06:23 <AnMaster> oh unicode decode error, as I expected
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02:09:29 <pikhq> I gueſs it ſucks to be þou, þen?
02:09:45 <pikhq> Heheh. ſucks. Þat's a good one.
02:11:00 <AnMaster> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp
02:11:07 <pikhq> ₤awlz, I ſhould ſay.
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02:12:47 <AnMaster> the issue is that unicode isn't trivial in python 2.x
02:14:21 <pikhq> Tcl has been doing Unicode for nearly ten years now.
02:15:36 <ehird> AnMaster: You're an idiot.
02:15:42 <ehird> Unicode in py3k = python 2.0 unicode.
02:15:54 <ehird> unicode just became the type of "aaa", instead of str.
02:16:00 <ehird> and str got renamed to bytestring or whatever
02:19:53 <GregorR-L> Even if you juſt replace þe raw bytes of ß, it ſhould work.
02:21:29 <pikhq> So, I gueſs þat Pyþon ſucks. :p
02:21:45 <ehird> pikhq: No, AnMaster just sucks at Python.
02:21:50 <ehird> I'm sure there are terrible Tcl coders too.
02:21:56 * pikhq is ever-ſo-tempted to uſe "ß" in that
02:22:08 <pikhq> ehird: Probably. I kill þem.
02:22:25 <pikhq> I ſtill need to get around to ſtabbing Larry McVoy.
02:28:04 <GregorR-L> Funny, becauſe I need to get around to f-tabbing Larry McVoy
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02:33:23 <Patashu> actually the etymology of my name has no roots in pokemon
02:33:36 <GregorR-L> It didn't even occur to me until juſt now :P
02:34:25 <Patashu> how are all things esoteric
02:34:37 <GregorR-L> We're ſpeaking in broken middle Engliſh now.
02:41:44 <ehird> GregorR-L: You farted that?
02:48:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: We're uſing Early Modern Engliſh. And aſide from our ſpelling being a bit more modern, 'tis perfectly correct.
02:48:49 <GregorR-L> pikhq: OK, ſo it's VERY broken Middle Engliſh :P
02:49:26 <pikhq> It's only ſlightly broken Middle English.
02:50:19 <pikhq> Middle Engliſh waſn't very different from Early Modern Engliſh. Juſt þe pronunciation of everyþing.
02:50:51 <GregorR-L> Þat's þe only place I've uſed þe y o u r -> þy tranſlation :P
02:51:15 <pikhq> Nice work, good ſir Gregor.
02:52:16 <myndzi\> i thought we had measuring cups but apparently we don't
02:52:26 <GregorR-L> Unicode dœſn't have hieroglyphs, dœs it? :(
02:52:39 <myndzi\> so i made do with the citrus juicer's measurement for a cup of sugar
02:52:43 <myndzi\> and a pint glass for 1.5 quarts
02:52:45 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No, but Unicode 6.0 definitely will.
02:53:05 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou doþ not talk to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
02:53:25 <Patashu> what WON'T unicode 6 include?
02:53:33 <GregorR-L> I'm þinking þat þou're iſn't a word :P
02:54:25 <pikhq> Patashu: Voynich, Klingon, Tengwar, and my perſonal writing ſyſtem.
02:55:12 <pikhq> ehird: Unrepreſentable.
02:55:28 <pikhq> I'm the only one þat uſes it. ;)
02:56:30 <pikhq> Moſtly, I uſe it to jot down notes. And I only created it becauſe my high ſchool's freſhman ſcience courſe was very, very boring.
02:57:32 <pikhq> PNG example, pleaſe?
02:57:48 <ehird> i want one of them
02:57:53 * pikhq is ſomewhat curious, þou seëst
03:00:27 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
03:00:31 <pikhq> Not a PNG example, good ſir.
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04:51:10 <GregorR-L> I added "dœs" and "has" to my tranſlator.
04:52:16 <myndzi\> ʇɪ оｐ ｐｌｎоɥѕ əｕоʎɹəʌə ｌооɔ оѕ ѕ͵ʇɐɥʇ
04:52:22 <GregorR-L> I added "doþ" and "haþ" to my tranſlator.
04:52:50 <GregorR-L> I ſhould change "you're" to "þou art"
04:53:39 <myndzi\> but of course, you might want to actually use "you're"
04:53:47 <myndzi\> you can't really search and replace one tense into two
04:53:59 <myndzi\> i think tense is the wrong term there
04:54:03 <myndzi\> but i can't think of the correct one
04:54:58 <myndzi\> "grammatical person", i guess
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05:06:06 <pikhq> Having fun wiþ þy Unicode, ſirs and fellows?
05:06:21 <pikhq> BTW, hello, Ørjan.
05:07:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Alſo, “doþ” and “haþ” aren't always correct.
05:07:55 <pikhq> Only when uſing “þee”, “þou”, etc.
05:08:32 <oerjan> erm surely third person verb with þou is incorrect
05:09:23 <oerjan> and the object form þee is irrelevant to verbs.
05:10:37 <pikhq> oerjan: Indeed, þou art correct. I'm not ſure how to phraſe what I was meaning to say, but what I ſaid is, frankly, wrong. ;)
05:11:51 <Gracenotes> wow. I actually had an opportunity to use "yes" today. the unix command.
05:12:58 <oerjan> next, you might have an opportunity to use "nl"
05:13:04 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Þat fills me wiþ much glee.
05:13:30 <Gracenotes> enough with your thorny attitude, young man!
05:14:21 <pikhq> But we've been doing it for hours! Really, look at all of þe ſtrings of text above þis line!
05:15:02 <pikhq> Indeed. I blame Gregor for ſtarting it.
05:15:55 <Gracenotes> don't forget about all the grammatical forms either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou#Comparison
05:16:13 <Gracenotes> perhaps harder to automatically convert
05:16:37 <pikhq> Yes, yes. I'm not doing automatic converſion, I'm doing þis by hand.
05:17:00 <pikhq> Þus why þere's a few ſlipups here and þere.
05:17:42 <Patashu> I can't read anything in here
05:18:48 <pikhq> Pataſhu: UNICODE FAIL.
05:19:00 <pikhq> Come back wiþ a *real* terminal.
05:19:10 <pikhq> Here's a nickle for þe coſt.
05:19:54 <Gracenotes> really, the replacement here is regular
05:20:13 <Patashu> nooo they be stealing mah unicodes
05:20:37 <pikhq> Gracenotes: I'm raþer picky about it. Bit ſlower þan it would normally be to type, mind, but no ſed from me.
05:21:12 <pikhq> *Gregor*, on þe oþer hand... He's juſt ſilly, wiþ his Xchat ſcript to do it all for him. ;p
05:22:03 <Gracenotes> (oo)\_______ < Unicode?? Don't forget about me!
05:22:24 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
05:22:32 <pikhq> myndzi: Larry þe Cow.
05:22:50 <myndzi> 21:05.30 < pikhq> Having fun wiþ þy Unicode, ſirs and fellows? <- this should be "your" :)
05:23:09 <myndzi> all these silly symbols make it hard to read
05:23:21 <oerjan> that's the UniCOW, clearly!
05:23:33 <myndzi> the essense of it is "thee, thy, thou, thine" etc are second person singular (speaking to one person)
05:23:40 <oerjan> i don't think that's an udder
05:23:49 <myndzi> you, your, you, yours is second person plural (speaking to many)
05:23:50 <Gracenotes> oerjan: I think you've been ASCII-ng too much
05:23:58 <pikhq> myndzi: Yes, yes. I ſcrew up, even þough I know better.
05:24:13 <oerjan> Gracenotes: been reading my eodermdrome drawings?
05:24:14 <pikhq> Raþer, I *ought* to know better.
05:24:23 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Not Old Engliſh.
05:24:31 <pikhq> Early Modern Engliſh.
05:25:01 <pikhq> Old Engliſh has more in common wiþ Dutch or Norwegian.
05:25:10 <pikhq> Victorian? No. Not only no but hell no.
05:25:17 <pikhq> Elizabeþan, maybe.
05:25:41 <myndzi> just do it like in brave fencer musashi!
05:25:45 <pikhq> Þis would've ſeemed a tiny bit archaic to Shakespeare.
05:25:49 <myndzi> add -st or -est to random words
05:25:58 <myndzi> it doesn't matterest if they arest verbs or nounsest
05:26:00 <pikhq> s/Shakespare/Shakeſpeare/
05:26:36 <Gracenotes> pikhq: fine then. I'll make you pay for your knowledge of English linguistics >:[
05:26:40 <oerjan> pikhq: you correct nonexisting typos now?
05:27:07 <Gracenotes> I am somewhat familiar with the locution of older English. Just not the history :)
05:27:13 <oerjan> stai stabbato, or something
05:27:14 <pikhq> oerjan: 'Twas a typo; þe ſhort S was wrong þere.
05:28:19 <oerjan> irssi is so helpful, turning long s's into short ones
05:28:41 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I look'd 'em up in e dictionary.
05:29:31 <myndzi> that's because they are different forms of the same word?
05:29:31 <pikhq> oerjan: Why didſt þou make irſsi change long S to ſhort‽
05:29:56 <oerjan> pikhq: because my terminal only doth latin-1
05:30:47 <pikhq> oerjan: UNICODE FAIL.
05:31:04 * oerjan looks in the web logs, and wonders if long s _really_ should have that upper left spike...
05:31:06 <myndzi> speaking of unicode fail
05:31:16 <myndzi> let's see how many people in here have misconfigured terminals!
05:31:18 <myndzi> DCC SEND <CTCP>0130;40m stopspy echo j | format c: +++ATH0 27;32p13;32p0;0;32p3;32pt2J[2Jterminal'd 30;40;5m$<CTCP>
05:31:35 <pikhq> myndzi: Hilarious.
05:31:59 <myndzi> Gracenotes: i was only really interested in the utf-8 hax
05:32:29 <myndzi> it takes advantage of irc clients that support utf-8 running on terminals that don't
05:32:33 <myndzi> to send ansi control codes
05:32:47 <pikhq> oerjan: LC_ALL ſhould be ="" or en_US.UTF-8.
05:32:58 <pikhq> Þy terminal will magically begin handling Unicode.
05:33:00 <Gracenotes> at least no one here is vulnerable to the DCC SEND exploit. afaik.
05:33:18 <myndzi> that is a shitty bit of router code that is wrong in so many ways
05:33:26 <myndzi> luckily a simple work around is to not use port 6667
05:33:49 <myndzi> it's *supposed* to perform ALG functions on irc
05:33:53 <oerjan> pikhq: i once tried changing some things to norwegian or english, but noted that suddenly sort became all localized too
05:33:53 <myndzi> but it 1) doesn't check for valid ctcp
05:33:57 <myndzi> 2) doesn't check that it's an outgoing message
05:34:07 <myndzi> 3) closes the connection when it sees a malformed message (WHY?!)
05:34:11 <pikhq> oerjan: You could have LC_COLLATE=C.
05:34:15 <oerjan> and at the time i was using !sort from vim a lot
05:34:21 <myndzi> the better part is you can use it for NAT traversal
05:34:30 <pikhq> LC_COLLATE determines how þings are ſorted.
05:34:48 <myndzi> by sending CORRECT dcc messages with the port you want access to and scanning the approximate range
05:34:59 <pikhq> And... Imma stop with that, it's getting too annoying to think about.
05:35:12 <myndzi> thank god, one sane person :P
05:35:30 <pikhq> Mäybë a bit of mëtäl to end things wıṫh, though.
05:36:15 <myndzi> ìíîïiîiìííîíïíìîiìííîììììîîîíîïîiìïîïîiìïîíìiîiííîíîíìiìî
05:37:28 <pikhq> I love how i+. = ı
05:37:32 <oerjan> myndzi: sane persons, in here? let's EAT THEIR BRAINS!
05:38:36 <myndzi> lol thats soooooooo random
05:39:26 <oerjan> pikhq: clearly that should have been i-.
05:39:53 <pikhq> oerjan: But it's technically i + ..
05:39:55 <myndzi> i was looking for the logical xor symbol in charmap
05:40:23 <pikhq> Alphabetic arithmetic is a bit of a unique axiomatic system.
05:40:30 <oerjan> wouldn't that be ï instead
05:40:54 <pikhq> That's what it looks like when you add the . diaretic to i.
05:41:24 <myndzi> ï is not really the same as i plus a single dot
05:41:34 <psygnisfive> pikhq: i think if you added the dot diacritic to i you'd get i with a dot above, not ï
05:41:35 <myndzi> it makes sense that i+dot = i with no dot, really
05:41:37 <pikhq> BTW, if you want an i with a dot, ị is much nicer looking. :p
05:41:53 <pikhq> psygnisfive: What you actually get is ı.
05:42:17 <myndzi> then divide by 0 for good measure
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07:40:09 <Patashu> no bf joust action today huh?
07:46:02 <psygnisfive> no more bf joust action ever, unfortunately
07:46:18 <psygnisfive> new laws have been passed that require immediate execution of any participants in bf joust action.
07:47:20 <Patashu> won't want to bf joust by accident
07:57:34 <GregorR-L> Kicked out of parks twice in as many nights.
07:57:43 <GregorR-L> Portland is trying to kill Extreme Croquet.
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08:01:01 <Patashu> only one person has ever reached the 20x multiplier
08:01:24 <GregorR-L> ............ yeah, at's not extreme croquet :P
08:01:30 <GregorR-L> It's juſt croquet in unuſual environments.
08:01:38 <GregorR-L> Often played at night becauſe, well, þat's an unuſual environment.
08:01:55 <GregorR-L> Þat would be really unuſual, but ſure :P
08:03:00 <myndzi> off the tree, down the stream bed, under the bridge, off the rock, nothing but wicket!
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08:48:03 <Patashu> btw, there is a way to see the age of a program on the hill
08:48:06 <Patashu> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/?C=M;O=A
08:53:04 <GregorR-L> I'm fairly certain I'm not on boþ of þoſe.
08:53:31 <psygnisfive> þ is used for voiceless th, as in "both", but ð is used for voiced, as in "those"
08:54:33 <GregorR-L> Funny how /every/ ſource I can find ſays oþerwiſe.
08:54:53 <myndzi> The letter thorn was used for writing Old English very early on, like ð; but unlike ð, it remained in common usage through most of the Middle English period.
08:55:01 <myndzi> guess it depends on the period you are talking about?
08:55:37 <GregorR-L> Þe long 's' I'm almoſt certainly doing wrong, I was baſically juſt doing what ſomebody elſe ſaid for giggles þere :P
08:56:41 <psygnisfive> it seems you're sort of right about þ and ð. þ was often word initial than ð
08:57:25 <psygnisfive> ofcourse, this only works for old english where θ and ð are allophones
08:57:49 <GregorR-L> I'm aiming at early modern, by which point ð was juſt gone.
08:57:54 <psygnisfive> in modern english, you can't use them interchangeable since [θ] and [ð] are not allophones
08:58:08 <myndzi> what about for the cretaceous where θ and ð are allosaurs?
08:58:09 <psygnisfive> yes, well, early modern used completely different words and spelling as well
08:58:42 <myndzi> give it up like the second person singular!
08:58:42 <GregorR-L> Or, I'll juſt decree þat I'm trying to bring back þorn as a general replacement for 't h', and not as a ſpecific revival of its previous uſe.
08:58:53 <psygnisfive> myndzi: we're talking phonology not saurology
08:59:03 <myndzi> let's bring back porn as a general replacement for 'th'
08:59:06 <myndzi> that'd be more productive
08:59:10 <psygnisfive> well you should revive it as a replacement for the voiceless one!
08:59:35 <myndzi> GregorR-L, voice of the voiceless
08:59:38 <GregorR-L> Þat's difficult when I'm juſt uſing eſsentially a ſed ſcript :P
08:59:46 <myndzi> (you'll never silence him!)
09:00:06 <GregorR-L> That's difficult when I'm just using essentially a sed script :P
09:00:30 <GregorR-L> I'm juſt typing as per normal and it's being replaced automatically by an xchat plugin I wrote.
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09:03:34 <myndzi> just edit your keyboard layout
09:04:26 <myndzi> you might have to recompile the kernel
09:05:04 <psygnisfive> yeah but he likes linux, which means recompiling the kernel is pleasurable.
09:09:01 <Asztal> did middle english still have hwere and hwy, or had it changed by then?
09:10:35 <Asztal> Icelandic uses "hvaða" for "what", I love it
09:13:34 * oerjan watches psygnisfive carefully for any emerging green color
09:15:01 * oerjan cannot quite remember if psygnisfive is a conlanger
09:15:24 <oerjan> my recent eodermdrome program nearly qualifies
09:16:34 <Asztal> shouldn't the topic be "þou dost not", out of curiosity, or am I in the wrong period there too?
09:17:26 <psygnisfive> since the -th suffix is the precursor to modern -s
09:17:42 <psygnisfive> so the topic translates roughly as "so long as you does not talk to him"
09:18:17 <Asztal> "thou" is actually still used in Lancashire (where I mostly live), but it's changed to "tha", and it's rare even among old people
09:20:45 <oerjan> psewelklihiandnabarfrux chewelisksiamtmaybobyargruz scewelklihiandnabarfrux wheliosokoiamtmaybyargruz psewelklihiandnarfryx chewelisksiamtmargrux scewelklihiandnarfryx wheliosokoiamtmargrux
09:20:49 <oerjan> (1) byanad buguramat (0) byanad buramat ( ) sehened sihiabruramat ( ) ianadabar iamtmabar sceweihiandnarfrux (0) sowoieheiamtmaur sceweihiandnarfryx (1) sowoieheiamtmaurux
09:20:52 <oerjan> abrand a thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog miewehit
09:22:30 * oerjan removed most of the english output parts
09:24:38 <oerjan> i played around with tr to make it look nice-sounding
09:25:17 <oerjan> (letter permutations don't change the program interpretation)
09:27:13 <oerjan> although making it basically pronouncable was mainly a question of strategric placement of vowels and sonants
09:27:31 <oerjan> (which i did by hand first)
09:27:42 <oerjan> it's a program in ais523's Eodermdrome language
09:28:17 <oerjan> each word is interpreted as a graph, with each letter a node and edges between neighboring nodes
09:29:00 <oerjan> well just the sound of it
09:29:36 <Patashu> oerjan just wants to hang out with the cool kids
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13:48:27 <ais523> yay, defend9 is still top of the leaderboard
14:04:41 <lifthrasiir> ais523: gcc-bf has special output format? (from recent in-between commit log about gcc-bf's RLE format)
14:05:03 <ais523> it can output regular BF, but that often causes the computer to run out of memory
14:05:16 <ais523> so it can also output in its internal RLE format, which is basically BF but with run-length encoding
14:05:42 <ais523> apart from that, it's identical
14:05:52 <ais523> oh, and if there isn't a number after the *, the * is a comment
14:06:18 <ais523> gcc-bf output also contains a few meaningful comments; but they're strictly comments, the program runs fine without interpreting them
14:06:31 <ais523> because +*5 can be interpreted as +, then four more +s
14:07:40 <lifthrasiir> okay. finally i have some time to work on esotope-bfc, and i'm moving file loader into separate module. but i wanted some example... :)
14:14:22 <ais523> there's some gcc-bf code in filebin somewhere
14:14:37 <ais523> nooga: gcc-bf never generates that
14:15:08 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/pqzmno/hworld1.bfrle
14:15:21 <ais523> possibly the world's longest and most convoluted hello world
14:15:30 <ais523> although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a worse one out there somewhere
14:17:06 <nooga> is * really necessary?
14:17:16 <ais523> nooga: no, it just makes filesizes much smaller
14:17:22 <ais523> and prevents my computer running out of memory
14:17:26 <ais523> you can just expand it all if you like
14:17:26 <nooga> +10 == +*10 is quite obvious
14:17:53 <nooga> i mean the character '*'
14:18:04 <nooga> why not +60, -10 >5
14:23:35 <lifthrasiir> oops, separating loader and initial optimizer made esotope-bfc three times slower. :(
14:24:23 <ais523> nooga: to distinguish from numbers in comments?
14:24:34 <ais523> gcc-bf can use quite a lot of those, especially if you ask for debug output
14:25:22 <nooga> how frequent does number occur after +-<>[]., in comments?
14:25:39 <nooga> without any space etc
14:25:44 <ais523> loads, although there are normally other comment characters in between
14:27:51 <nooga> then 90 is comment
14:28:02 <nooga> single space in between will do
14:28:28 <nooga> 66 is still a comment
14:28:39 <ais523> I think using * is probably less of a disruption to standard BF parsing
14:29:11 <nooga> but makes the code larger
14:29:28 <ais523> well, I'd put the numbers in hex if I cared about microoptimising size
14:29:48 <ais523> it's just the difference between <*10000 and writing it out with loads of < signs
14:30:30 <nooga> <10000 gives you one char less
14:30:41 <ais523> which is hardly any saving compared to the 10000
14:31:28 <nooga> i thin you've got something like 20000 *s in this file you gave
14:31:41 <ais523> yes, 20K isn't going to make a substantial difference
14:32:02 <ais523> all I really care about is causes my computer to swap vs. doesn't cause my computer to swap
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14:43:35 <nooga> wonder if zip would compress this file
14:43:54 <ais523> I suspect it compresses rather well
14:46:20 <nooga> can't find this whole gcc-bf
15:04:23 <FireFly> !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7(>[-])*20
15:04:34 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 48.8
15:16:23 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 18.3
15:16:37 <FireFly> Hm, it actually did win a coule of times :\
15:17:24 <ais523> nooga: yes, unreleased
15:17:37 <ais523> it was hard enough just to get that hello world to work
15:17:59 <ais523> FireFly: wouldn't [+]+ suicide unless the opponent was on your flag doing [-]?
15:18:15 <ais523> that's just at 0 for one cycle
15:18:22 <ais523> nope, it is two cycles
15:18:23 <FireFly> The idea is to abuse the fact that it needs to be 0 for two cycles
15:18:27 <ais523> one after the +, one after the ]
15:18:35 <ais523> you can abuse that fact; just not like that
15:19:03 <ais523> no, that wouldn't work
15:20:24 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga [>[+]-]
15:20:35 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 60.0
15:20:49 <FireFly> !bfjoust draw (+[++])*5000
15:20:58 <FireFly> Let's see what happens now...
15:21:00 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 27.3
15:21:25 <FireFly> 5 draws, 4 wins (eg. opponent suicides)
15:22:03 <nooga> how to avoid suicide?
15:22:57 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga (>)*100[>+[-]-]
15:23:08 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 0.0
15:23:21 <FireFly> !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7([>][-])*20
15:23:32 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 11.2
15:23:41 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga (>)*60[>+[-]-]
15:23:52 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 0.0
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15:25:17 <FireFly> I saw why my code went terribly bad :P
15:25:18 <nooga> enemy flag should be somewhere there (?)
15:25:52 <FireFly> "The tape length is much shorter, being randomized in the range 10-30."
15:26:11 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga (>)*5[>+[-]-]
15:26:22 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 22.0
15:28:01 <FireFly> !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[-])*20
15:28:12 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 53.7
15:28:45 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga ++>--->++>->+++>-[>+[-]-]
15:28:54 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 28.5
15:30:08 <nooga> !bfjoust nooga ->--->---->--->-->-[>+[-]-]
15:30:19 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_nooga: 42.3
15:30:39 <nooga> shame this is not my solution :C
15:32:54 <FireFly> !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[+++++>]<[-])*20
15:33:04 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 10.4
15:33:42 <FireFly> !bfjoust test +++>>(+)*3>(-)*3>++(>)*6(>[+++++<]>[-])*20
15:33:53 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 29.7
15:37:08 <FireFly> !bfjoust AntiMarauder ++(>>-)*4>(>[-])*21
15:37:19 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_AntiMarauder: 35.8
15:40:13 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 24.3
15:40:23 <nooga> does probram end after zeroing opponent's flag?
15:40:39 <FireFly> It has to be zero for two rounds
15:40:53 <FireFly> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust#The_revised_version
15:41:09 <FireFly> 2 | 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - 0 0 - - + - 0 | 24.3 | -3 | FireFly_draw.bfjoust
15:41:15 <ais523> wow, nescience_shade is now second
15:41:25 <ais523> I wonder if he resubmitted it with changes, or if the hill's changed enough that it does well?
15:41:40 <ais523> nescience / myndzi: you wouldn't happen to know anything about this, would you?
15:42:28 <ais523> heh, Firefly_draw /is/ rather good at drawing
15:42:48 <ais523> I wonder if there's some way to modify farmers so that they win?
15:45:06 <ais523> possibly some sort of cross between defend9 (we need a name for that strategy!) and a farmer
15:45:48 <FireFly> I haven't read all of defend9, 'twas rather long, wasn't it?
15:45:55 <FireFly> By the way, was the limit of rounds 100k?
15:46:40 <nooga> !bfjoust test (-->{.}+++<)*5[>+[-]-]
15:46:51 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_test: 19.2
15:47:12 <nooga> !bfjoust test (-->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-]
15:47:23 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_test: 31.7
15:48:12 <nooga> !bfjoust test (->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-]
15:48:23 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_test: 23.7
15:48:31 <nooga> !bfjoust test (---->{.}+++<)%5[>+[-]-]
15:48:41 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_test: 29.6
15:48:48 <ais523> FireFly: defend9 is long, but it's all much the same thing
15:48:53 <nooga> !bfjoust test (-->{.}+<)%5[>+[-]-]
15:48:53 <ais523> it works by benchmarking the opposing program
15:49:00 <ais523> to determine how many instructions are in its main loop
15:49:02 <EgoBot> Score for nooga_test: 13.4
15:49:16 <ais523> and then trapping it in its main loop whilst running off to capture its flag
15:49:38 <nooga> i can't imagine how
15:49:49 <FireFly> I didn't think BF Joust would be that much about analyzing the opponent :P
15:49:50 <nooga> it can actually determine something
15:50:11 <FireFly> !bfjoust test >+([+]+)*5000(>)*8(>[-])*21
15:50:22 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 20.4
15:53:24 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 18.4
15:54:43 <ais523> FireFly: well, defend9 is top of the table
15:54:49 <ais523> so it obviously isn't a hideous strategy
15:57:28 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_draw: 16.1
16:01:38 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_draw: 24.1
16:02:36 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_draw: 14.5
16:03:04 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_draw: 19.2
16:04:17 <FireFly> Wait, []?.. Hm, that works just as well as [.]
16:04:32 <FireFly> Except being well.. faster
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16:08:56 <ais523> found on Reddit: http://chrishecker.com/Kurt_G%C3%B6del_is_Laughing_His_Ass_Off_Right_Now
16:10:37 <FireFly> !bfjoust test [+]->>(+)*5>(-)*5(>)*7(>[-])*20
16:10:47 <EgoBot> Score for FireFly_test: 20.3
16:12:49 <Slereah> Your graph rewriting thingamagic, are you sure it's TC?
16:13:01 <Slereah> It seems to have a finite number of possible nodes
16:13:11 <ais523> I'm not sure, but that isn't limiting its TCness
16:13:16 <ais523> you can have infinite possible nodes
16:13:29 <ais523> for instance, "ab ade" is a trivial program that creates infinite nodes
16:14:10 <Slereah> So you start with the graph a-b, and what does it do?
16:14:30 <ais523> you start with the graph thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog, as always
16:14:44 <ais523> but ab refers to a vertex b of degree 1
16:14:56 <ais523> and you replace it with a vertex of degree 2 connected to a vertex of degree one
16:15:04 <Slereah> It's like the active part in the andrei machine?
16:15:07 <ais523> so you end up with an infinite chain of degree-2 vertices
16:15:43 <Slereah> Wait, what does a-b transforms into in one step?
16:17:42 <ais523> Slereah: the vertices aren't marked with letters
16:18:10 <ais523> so ab transforms into ade, which is equivalent to zab, which becomes zade, which is equivalent to yzab, which becomes yzade
16:18:50 <Slereah> Oh, so you can have multiple nodes with the same name
16:19:04 <ais523> nodes aren't named at all
16:19:09 <ais523> nodes are completely unnamed
16:19:17 <ais523> letters are just used to describe graphs
16:19:38 <ais523> just like if you say A+B in Prolog, that matches any addition
16:19:46 <ais523> not necessarily an addition of the letters A and B
16:20:13 <Slereah> The fact that the starting graph is so hueg doesn't make it easy to visualize a suimple example
16:20:26 <ais523> you generally replace the starting graph with what you want
16:20:31 <ais523> as it's unlikely to come up at random
16:21:01 <Slereah> So a-b actually replaces every nodes connected by a vertex?
16:22:36 <ais523> no, because b isn't mentioned over the right
16:22:46 <ais523> it replaces all nodes that are connected to one other node, but nothing else
16:22:58 <ais523> ab adb would replace two connected nodes with a chain of three connected nodes
16:23:03 <ais523> and is so general, it would be unlikely to be useful
16:23:26 <Slereah> That sounds even worst to program than the Kolmogorov machine
16:23:43 <FireFly> What's the name of this.. language?
16:23:50 <Slereah> And a starting node, to mark the beginning
16:24:00 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
16:24:39 <Slereah> I wonder if Mathematica is good with graphs, since it's the best software ever written
16:28:05 <Slereah> Mathematica has graphs, but the documentation is really shallow
16:28:25 <ais523> Mathematica is incredibly bad at anything it wasn't designed for
16:29:04 <Slereah> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/Combinatorica/ref/Graph.html
16:29:22 <Slereah> Do they tell me how a list of vertex and nodes is supposed to be written?
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16:33:14 <ais523> Slereah: node = vertex
16:35:01 <ais523> ugh, Mathematica's graph stuff is as inflexible as I suspected it might be
16:35:09 <ais523> each vertex seems to come with information about where it is
16:35:20 <ais523> which means it can't draw graphs in the neatest possible way
16:36:44 <ais523> although they do have things like SpringEmbedding to try to achieve that sort of thing
16:38:13 <Slereah> I tried ShowGraph[Graph[{{1, 2}}, {{1, 1}, {2, 2}}]], but it no works
16:38:15 <ais523> the Eodermdrome graph-match operation isn't in their library, though
16:38:24 <Slereah> I may need additional brackets
16:38:32 <ais523> meaning it's basically impossible to implement
16:42:55 <Slereah> Well, it's probably doable
16:43:01 <Slereah> Though not necessarily easy
16:43:23 <Slereah> Although I think the Andrei Machine 9000 should be easier, since it has typed nodes
16:43:23 <Deewiant> The Graph bit works but ShowGraph gives a bunch of errors
16:43:44 <ais523> Deewiant: probably because the nodes aren't assigned to positions
16:43:53 <ais523> you'd have to take it through a position-allocation function first
16:44:19 <Deewiant> Possibly; I didn't read the docs, just tried Slereah's expression :-)
16:44:30 <ais523> also, how do you know the Graph bit works?
16:44:39 <ais523> Mathematica operations don't normally give errors if you mess up the syntax
16:44:43 <ais523> they just hold in place Thutu-style
16:44:48 <Deewiant> It doesn't error and it gives proper output
16:44:53 <ais523> although there are error-recognition patterns in later versions
16:48:28 <Slereah> Is Graph shit a package, or is it basic Mathematica?
16:48:34 <Slereah> Because even the examples don't work
16:48:56 <Deewiant> It's both, it comes with Mathematica
16:49:22 <Slereah> Oh, that would explain why nothing works.
16:50:41 <Slereah> Now let's see what I can implement on that piece of shit
17:09:35 <nooga> FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU
17:10:10 <nooga> load avg under osx after one week without reboot -> 0.75, 0.36, 0.23
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17:32:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as þou talkest not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:32:53 <Slereah> Man, it must be awesome to be Wolfram
17:33:13 <Slereah> He probably has a constant boner just from being him
17:33:14 <Slereah> Because he's the best man ever!
17:35:07 <pikhq> Nicely done, Ørjan.
17:35:35 <pikhq> (just because I've stopped with the Early Modern English doesn't mean I'm not going to spell “Ørjan” right. ;))
17:38:49 <nooga> i like the letter Ø
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17:39:06 <oerjan> <Slereah> Your graph rewriting thingamagic, are you sure it's TC?
17:39:08 <nooga> i think Wolfram is weird
17:39:24 * oerjan thought he proved that.
17:40:05 <oerjan> in principle, at least, even if there may be bugs in it
17:43:54 -!- leonid_ has left (?).
17:45:52 <Slereah> Sim City fucking loved llamas
17:46:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: i merely corrected þe grammar
17:48:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: means nonsense
17:50:15 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: finally i'm back to the esotope-bfc. :) i recently added bfrle parser to analyze gcc-bf's output.
17:50:27 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I had one for DAYS ;P
17:51:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, haven't had time for in-between for a while
17:51:26 <AnMaster> polynom stuff is semi-complete
17:51:36 <ehird> GregorR: your font is weird. "Hello, world! How are you today?" → "HELLO, DONLD! HOD ANE EOU PODAE?"
17:51:43 <AnMaster> (meh, I always spell it in Swedish by mistake)
17:52:08 <oerjan> i was going to say that
17:52:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, haven't worked out how to convert non-trivial loops to that form though
17:52:40 <AnMaster> that is not +/- 1 for index cell. And no, I haven't been able to understand the algorithm you use
17:52:49 <ehird> lifthrasiir: so I'm curious, you wrote that thing about north/south korea for your school right? d'you think north korea are bluffing about bombing south korea?
17:52:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: do you still have trouble with the [+++>----<] kind?
17:52:55 <ehird> i'd imagine so, but, weird place.
17:53:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i keep telling you the extended euclidean algorithm is the key
17:53:22 <ehird> oerjan: he can't understand it
17:53:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes and I read about it. And I just don't understand *how* it is the key. How to use it in here.
17:53:53 <lifthrasiir> ehird: south koreans have been immuned to such things over the recent twenty years or so.
17:53:55 <ehird> (and yet he has the audacity to yell at me for not being up-to-date with a special case of the definition of imaginary numbers :-))
17:54:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: although as long as the index cell increment is _odd_, it reduces to modulo inverse
17:54:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: essentially for [+++>----<] you need to find x such that 3x == 1 (mod 256)
17:55:55 <oerjan> and then if the index cell is y, the other cell gets 4*x*y added
17:56:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, and x is the other cell?
17:56:36 <oerjan> no, x is what i wrote in the previous line
17:56:57 <oerjan> the index cell gets zeroed, naturally
17:57:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that the requirement that the increment is odd is really gcd(increment,256) = 1
17:57:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't an issue. I already make use of the knowledge that after a loop the index cell is zero.
17:58:20 <oerjan> when the gcd is 1, the extended euclidean algorithm reduces to finding modulo inverses
17:58:34 <AnMaster> I did work out that "when odd it will be finite", but in another way
18:01:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: it is possible to split things up if you find modulo inverses easier to think of than the algorithm (although you will still need the algorithm to _calculate_ a modulo inverse)
18:02:00 <oerjan> essentially you can first calculate the gcd(increment, 256), which gives you enough information to tell whether the loop is infinite or not
18:02:00 * AnMaster reads about modulo inverse on mathworld
18:02:54 <oerjan> if it is not infinite, then you divide things by the gcd, and then use modular inverse
18:02:54 <ehird> more like wolframworld.
18:03:10 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but was first hit on google
18:03:24 <ehird> modulo inverse is just the inverse of modulo :P
18:03:26 <oerjan> (wikipedia was first for me)
18:03:36 <ehird> oerjan: regional etc diffs
18:03:41 <oerjan> also, *modular, as the googling reminded me
18:03:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, so it is here if I'm not logged in to gmail.
18:03:58 <ehird> AnMaster: that's it personalizeramating the search results
18:04:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I use a script to disable the click tracking though, but I guess they could still do something based on search terms
18:05:43 <ehird> i leave it on because I like the superior search results.
18:05:55 <AnMaster> oooh "coprime" is same as "relativt prima" in Swedish.... Now I'm _slightly_ less lost.
18:06:45 <AnMaster> well ok I think I see *part* of what oerjan is talking about now
18:06:45 <nooga> oerjan: øl før frøkøst << that's pretty much real for me ;C
18:08:40 <nooga> i've got beer, but i'm too lazy to visit a grocery store
18:09:15 <ehird> pikhq: what's that writing system you talked about?
18:09:40 <ehird> nooga: beer, water, basically the same thing modulo some hops right?
18:10:08 <nooga> makes my stomach full
18:10:15 <AnMaster> fuck ESD... (no nothing got destroyed, but it hurt, saw the spark between the water tap and my finger...)
18:10:16 <ehird> yep, er, that's a property of water
18:10:41 <ehird> AnMaster: static is fun when you touch a crt
18:10:45 <ehird> or rather not very fun, but
18:10:48 <nooga> + i've heard that Polish beer is quite good
18:10:58 <AnMaster> ehird, as "not fun" as a magnet is?
18:11:17 <ehird> AnMaster: oh oh I used to use magnets on CRT & LCD monitors
18:11:28 <ehird> AnMaster: for a CRT btw it's fine you just need to degauss after
18:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, unless the magnet is too strong
18:11:58 <ehird> well maybe if you're like magnet mcstrongymagnet you couldn't just use any magnet you own
18:12:12 <AnMaster> ehird, neody-whatever magnet kind of strong I mean
18:12:24 <nooga> my old crt started to wobble when my electric oven was on
18:13:18 <AnMaster> ehird, as for LCD... Do you mean TFT or calculator-kind-of-LCD
18:13:31 <AnMaster> I never heard of any issues with magnets for either
18:13:38 <ehird> hmm maybe I'm misremembering
18:13:38 <AnMaster> I haven't tried, and don't plan to
18:13:46 <ehird> but my TFT did that I think
18:13:50 <ehird> wavy purpley colours
18:14:01 <nooga> ehird: try on plasma
18:14:09 <oerjan> ehird: are you sure you weren't ingesting something at the time
18:14:12 <ehird> nooga: I do not have the cash for a plasma display :)
18:14:21 <ehird> oerjan: 'tis possible
18:14:33 <ehird> I wonder what fun things you can do with OLED
18:14:35 <jix> maybe there was something magnetic behind the liquid cristals
18:14:44 <jix> so the magnets pulled that against the LCs
18:14:48 <ehird> do OLED displays have subpixels?
18:14:53 <ehird> jix: possibly, or just my bad memory
18:15:01 <Slereah> I used to have a professor
18:15:11 <Slereah> He's a researcher on OLEDs
18:15:13 <ehird> yes, OLED displays do have subpixels, cool
18:15:30 <Slereah> Always telling us how awesome they were
18:15:34 <ehird> OLED's pretty cool.
18:15:49 <ehird> Would love to use an OLED display for my new machine but that's not really practical yet.
18:15:57 <nooga> black is black, colors are vivid
18:16:17 <ehird> otoh I still want someone to invent something like:
18:16:25 <Slereah> Except it's expensive as shit :o
18:16:26 <ehird> OLED, but the off state is white, not black
18:16:39 <ehird> then black-on-white text would be a lot easier & pleasant to read
18:16:50 <AnMaster> isn't life time of OLED displays rather short
18:16:52 <ehird> I like white backgrounds better, but black ones give less eye strain currently
18:16:53 <nooga> how to display black?
18:16:55 <ehird> AnMaster: used to be
18:17:00 <ehird> nooga: beats me :)
18:17:16 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, one way of doing it even has more lifespan than lcd/tft displays iirc
18:17:32 <ehird> plus, displays don't really last that long anyway
18:17:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I only had an TFT fail once, that was due to the backlight thingy dying.
18:18:02 <nooga> i've seen something like a paper display
18:18:09 <ehird> nooga: yeah, ipaper
18:18:12 <AnMaster> CFL or something I think the term is?
18:18:27 <ehird> nooga: it does the neutral-white thing perfectly BUT:
18:18:32 <AnMaster> ehird, my old monitor lasted... hm. 6 years?
18:18:34 <ehird> - terrible, terrible contrast
18:18:40 <ehird> - very poor colour
18:18:48 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but you're a luddite :)
18:19:00 <Deewiant> I've never had a monitor break on me
18:19:03 <ehird> AnMaster: congrats, you've got a google query set up
18:19:04 <nooga> + those printed circuits (printed like documents) on foil
18:19:14 <ehird> i have a dead pixel on this monitor
18:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you used the same query interface?
18:19:21 <ehird> even though it's barely visible since it's 100dpi
18:19:29 <Deewiant> Some 15+-years old ones are still in use
18:19:54 <AnMaster> ehird.lookup("luddite").explain("otherwise this will turn into C++ with templates!")
18:19:56 <ehird> Deewiant: by "last" i mean "a display from so many years ago will be uncomfortably small for modern systems"
18:20:14 <ehird> eg from the 90s you've got 14-17" displays; awful
18:20:22 <ehird> blurry crt to boot
18:20:42 <nooga> i like my 24' apple screen
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18:20:51 <ehird> apple screens are nice
18:20:54 <nooga> i use it with mac mini lol ;d
18:20:56 <ehird> good contrast, 100 dpi
18:21:55 <nooga> i think that a big screen is necessary to work comfortably with OS X window-mess policy
18:21:56 <ehird> Deewiant: are you on crack?
18:22:03 <ehird> that screen's so small I'd die
18:22:17 <ehird> nooga: as opposed to the oh-so-wonderful "MAXIMIZE EVERYTHING. EEEEEEEEEEVERYTHING! WASTED SPACE <3"?
18:22:37 <nooga> thank got there's expo
18:23:07 <jix> gott ist tot
18:23:08 <Deewiant> ehird: No, you're on monitor-crack :-P
18:23:14 <nooga> + i'd like to have an option to tile windows
18:23:18 <Deewiant> 1280x1024 is a fine resolution
18:23:22 <ehird> Deewiant: hahahahah
18:23:27 <ehird> maybe if you do only one thing at a time
18:23:33 <jix> i want tiling too and scriptable window management
18:23:42 <ehird> and that thing is only a text editor, browser, or irc client.
18:23:48 <ehird> try editing videos at 1280x1024, fuck eyeah
18:23:51 <nooga> tile them on 2d surface and be able to resize them all with dragging borders
18:23:58 <nooga> you know what i mean?
18:24:02 <Deewiant> For all of those things I do only have one window open at a time :-P
18:24:22 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm going to assume you've never used a much bigger monitor
18:24:24 <pikhq> ehird: If I were editing videos or photos, yes, I would not be using a tiling WM.
18:24:31 <ehird> pikhq: wasn't talking about tiling
18:24:32 <Deewiant> ehird: I've got a 26" LCD currently
18:24:34 <ehird> I was talking about using 1280x1024
18:24:56 <pikhq> Tiling makes sense for me because I've got terminal apps and a browser.
18:25:02 <pikhq> 1280x1024? Sure, if it's 19".
18:25:10 <nooga> a mission: to hack OS X WM to tile windows
18:25:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, 1280x1024 is acceptable for 17" IMO. But 19" would need higher
18:25:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Fair enough.
18:26:01 <AnMaster> what is the next step up after 1280x1024 ?
18:26:07 <ehird> AnMaster: 1680x1050
18:26:11 * pikhq has a 19" 1440x900 monitor... Be nice to have something a bit better.
18:26:15 <ehird> that's the most common step up, at least
18:26:16 <jix> i want to attach a window from one program to a window from another program
18:26:21 <jix> and then let them stay together
18:26:23 <ehird> But 19" = 1280x1024, canonically.
18:26:24 <jix> for example
18:26:27 <ehird> AnMaster: not commonly used
18:26:29 <ehird> Deewiant: oh, right
18:26:32 <pikhq> ehird: That's not 4:3. The 4:3 equivalent is 1440x1050.
18:26:38 <ehird> AnMaster: from 1280x1050, you go to 1600x1200
18:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well my current monitor uses 1400x1050...
18:26:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it's uncommon./
18:27:12 <AnMaster> ehird, but it is the next step up then
18:27:29 <AnMaster> and 1600x1200 is indeed widescreen
18:27:37 <ehird> AnMaster: the next step up is 1281x1025
18:27:40 <ehird> if you're going to say that
18:28:10 <ehird> AnMaster: by "next size up", clearly the only reasonable answer that can be given is "what's the most common next step up?"
18:28:13 <AnMaster> that makes so much sense... NOT
18:28:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Actually it's 1285/1028
18:28:20 <pikhq> ehird: 1440x1050 is only uncommon because monitors of the size where it makes sense are uncommon.
18:28:47 <AnMaster> ehird, "what is the next step above which is actually used, but maybe not the most common on"
18:29:10 <ehird> wow, ~160 dpi is beautiful
18:29:21 <pikhq> "Get a middling DPI 19" or 20" monitor? Fuck that."
18:29:52 <AnMaster> what do you mean with "middling"
18:30:57 <nooga> ehird: is limechat scriptable?
18:31:05 <ehird> nooga: it's just ruby
18:31:21 <ehird> so that when my bouncer sends [blah] foo in the quicklog, it sets time=blah
18:31:27 <ehird> so that the bouncer logs look nicer
18:31:42 <nooga> how to i open the code when the program is ONE ICON?
18:31:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou talkeſt not to him..
18:31:54 <AnMaster> if it is just ruby... has it been "ported" to linux?
18:32:01 <pikhq> I DIDN'T EVEN HIT ENTER!
18:32:06 <ehird> nooga: show contents
18:32:11 <ehird> nooga: or just drag it to textmate
18:32:14 <ehird> and it'll show the directory structure
18:32:21 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... But wouldn't the backend and frontend be separate parts?
18:32:30 <ehird> AnMaster: the frontend is the majority of the code.
18:32:31 <AnMaster> so you could just use tk or whatever on Linux
18:32:32 <ehird> also, cocoa != just gui
18:32:40 -!- oerjan has set topic: Where ehird is always friendly, so long as þou talkest not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
18:32:43 <ehird> cocoa has data structures etc
18:33:04 -!- pikhq has set topic: #eſoteric: Where ehird is always friendly, ſo long as þou talkeſt not to him. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
18:33:11 <AnMaster> ehird, does ruby have a "native" GUI API? Like Tcl has Tk?
18:33:19 <ehird> No language except Tcl does.
18:33:30 <nooga> i doubt that this thing that appeared in textmate is ruby code
18:33:42 <ehird> nooga: what appeared
18:33:50 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. what about an interface to a gtk or such that is widely used?
18:33:54 <nooga> looks like executable
18:34:02 <ehird> nooga: look in Resources/
18:34:13 <ehird> AnMaster: it has a tk binding in core, a qt binding, a gtk binding, an ffi,
18:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean... for python isn't the "tinker" or whatever part of the python standard distribution? Rather than a separate package.
18:34:21 <ehird> a java's swing binding with JRuby,
18:34:23 <ehird> it has everything.
18:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But I meant in core :)
18:34:30 <ehird> note: tk isn't built by default
18:34:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tkinter, you mean?
18:34:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, that might have been it
18:35:18 <ehird> firefox doesn't respect system-wide dpi settings
18:35:24 <AnMaster> erlang has tk and wxwidgets (new in R13A) support in the "standard" distribution.
18:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, also, did you change display or something? Or why have you found out this just now?
18:36:00 <ehird> AnMaster: i'd rather eat my own vomit than try and compile, let alone modify, firefox
18:36:14 <ehird> also, playing around in a VM in anticipation of possible ultra-high-DPI screen for a project
18:36:29 <AnMaster> ehird, compiling isn't that complex iirc... Just time consuming. Leave it on overnight however.
18:36:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Firefox has a complex build system.
18:36:58 <pikhq> And modifying it is hell.
18:37:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, as far as I remember it wasn't hard for me to build the ff2 alpha manually
18:37:40 <ehird> grr, virtualbox, you have mouse integration but you aren't showing all resolutions
18:37:42 <ehird> SHOW RESOLUTIONNNNNNNNNNNS
18:37:47 <pikhq> It's always been a tad bit of a bitch.
18:37:58 <ehird> WHY? YOU DARE TO ASK ME WHY?
18:38:09 <ehird> This screen will be 1280x1024. I cannot test 160dpi at 1024x768.
18:38:13 <ehird> Because there is a word for that.
18:38:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, no. Just quite a few ./configure options iirc. But way fewer than for apache!
18:38:50 <AnMaster> (yes I have built Apache manually before.... On windows too! THAT was bad.)
18:39:36 <oerjan> (upward in the snow both ways)
18:39:42 <nooga> now where is that thing
18:39:47 <ehird> nooga: what you tryina do
18:40:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I can't agree with you about hard to compile manually
18:41:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, did you mean what Deewiant said?
18:41:09 <Deewiant> 2009-05-30 20:36:57 ( pikhq) And modifying it is hell.
18:41:18 <Deewiant> I don't see what else he could've meant :-P
18:41:19 <ehird> AnMaster: he said that
18:41:24 <ehird> (a) it was a complex build system
18:41:26 <ehird> (b) hard to modify
18:41:29 <ehird> neither implies hard to build
18:41:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I interpreted it as "and also"
18:41:40 <Deewiant> Never did he say it's hard to use
18:41:52 <AnMaster> hard to compile manually he seemed to say
18:42:21 * ehird discovers how many applications fragrantly ignore system-wide dpi settings
18:42:26 * ehird whoop-asses said prorgams
18:42:43 <Deewiant> Well, I'm glad you find it pleasant
18:42:56 <nooga> sending privmsg where's that
18:43:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends. For me fragrantly == bad. Due to having asthma...
18:43:40 <ehird> "Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop. Lemme take a loop."
18:43:46 <nooga> i take a loop and then i hang myself on it
18:43:55 <Deewiant> Fragrantness doesn't imply pollen
18:44:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes I happen to be allergic to some types of pollen as well.
18:44:20 <Deewiant> I don't see how else asthma couldn't mix with that
18:44:21 <ehird> nooga: class IRCSendingMessage
18:44:25 <ehird> case on privmsg etc
18:44:26 <Deewiant> Maybe I don't know enough about asthma
18:44:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah... I think there is difference between the English and Swedish meaning
18:44:28 <ehird> nooga: in ircmessage.rb
18:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: err, asthma has nothing to do with pollen
18:44:52 <ehird> Asthma is a chronic medical condition. It has been defined by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute as a common chronic disorder of the airways that is complex and characterized by variable and recurring symptoms, airflow obstruction, bronchial hyperresponsiveness (bronchospasm), and an underlying inflammation. The interaction of these features of asthma determines the clinical manifestations and severity of asthma and the response to treatment.[1
18:44:59 <ehird> i dunno what smell has to do with it
18:45:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right. In English you are correct. In Swedish it kind of implies strong perfume or similar.
18:45:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which does cause problems with asthma. Both for me and many other I know with asthma...
18:46:04 <ehird> hmm... 1280x1024, let's say 12" screen = 136.6 PPI
18:46:17 <AnMaster> damn English making a similar word with a different meaning.
18:46:36 <Deewiant> It's from Latin, and the English is closer to the original :-P
18:46:50 <Sgeo> How secure is Hashapass?
18:46:51 <Deewiant> fragrare - to smell (of something)
18:47:38 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:47:38 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
18:47:41 <AnMaster> or karott... No "carrot" is not http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Karott.JPG but rather http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carrot.jpg
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18:48:07 * ehird attempts to find ff's dpi setting
18:48:10 <Deewiant> Hmm, what /is/ carrot in Swedish
18:48:12 <AnMaster> (iirc French has the same meaning as Swedish for a similar word there?)
18:48:20 <ehird> man, 137dpi is huge
18:48:26 <ehird> eveything's the size of headings
18:48:41 <Slereah> Carotte in French can mean stealing
18:48:47 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, it's set to -1 there
18:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: it, uh, valiantly didn't work.
18:49:19 <AnMaster> ehird, Oh. That was an attempt at joking about FF config dialogs being dumbed down....
18:49:33 <ehird> AnMaster: They're not dumbed down
18:49:41 <ehird> I've only had to use about:config like 3 times in my life
18:49:44 <ehird> And that's for really obscure stuff.
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18:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, sure are... Many of the settings only found in about:config nowdays used to be found in the normal config dialog in firefox 1.0 and older
18:50:24 <Sgeo> Is making the backspace key not go back really that obscure?
18:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: that's called putting things most people don't use out of the way
18:51:02 <uooga> i broke sending msg
18:51:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hey... remember "phoenix" and "firebird"?
18:51:11 <ehird> a full system designed by AnMaster would be the most configurable piece of shit ever that you wouldn't be able to do trivial things without scrolling down 57 pages of configuration options
18:51:27 <ehird> and toggling things to one of 5 boolean values representing which type of machine code branch to use!
18:51:43 <AnMaster> ehird, a system designed by me would be better than one designed by zzo at least
18:52:02 * oerjan tends to think of zzo as AnMaster squared
18:52:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, odd. I tend to think of zzo as "lunatic"
18:52:21 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
18:52:32 <ehird> "Well my program can play solitaire or football and you can set a configuration option to whether you want to play solitaire or football and also you can change the title like if you don't like Cool Football you could use Footybally"
18:52:37 <ehird> AnMaster: he's autistic, give the kid a break
18:52:37 -!- nooga has joined.
18:52:45 <ehird> he's very intelligent for sure
18:52:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? Hm I wasn't aware of it.
18:53:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway why would I design a system. There is already one I like
18:54:09 <ehird> emacs is a perfect example of how to do everything wrong
18:54:19 <ehird> it takes bad decisions to the level of an art form
18:54:27 <Sgeo> http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/3-amazing-holgram-technologies
18:54:32 <ehird> AnMaster: everything!
18:54:52 <ehird> pick just about anything from emacs and there's your example
18:55:10 <ehird> it's like someone took the perfect editor and put it into the Make Everything Shit machine
18:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: more specific.
18:55:13 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
18:55:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well I was more specific than you at least
18:55:27 -!- nooga has joined.
18:55:34 <AnMaster> but what it is you dislike with those then
18:55:35 <nooga> þis is a teſ<CTCP>
18:55:41 <ehird> heh, the display I want is almost as high dpi as the iphone
18:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, the iphone is high dpi?
18:56:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a ~3.5" screen
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18:56:14 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. Why do they make them so high dpi
18:56:25 <AnMaster> I mean I bet my phone has higher dpi than my computer monitor!
18:56:30 <ehird> AnMaster: because the screen is tiny; if you made it at a regular dpi, everything would be blocky as hell
18:56:31 -!- nooga has joined.
18:56:41 <ehird> you need to read web pages with quite small text on this
18:56:49 <ehird> look at photos too
18:56:53 <ehird> you need a decent sized screen
18:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you would just have to hold it as the same distance as a normal monitor ;P
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18:56:58 <uooga> damn, does not work
18:57:03 <ehird> iphone = 480x320, 3.5"
18:57:35 <AnMaster> ehird, then another question... Why don't they make normal monitors as high dpi as those
18:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: mega $$$
18:57:47 <ehird> also, they do, for industry
18:57:50 <ehird> eg hospitals and shit
18:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why not get such a monitor?
18:58:12 <ehird> AnMaster: that'll be a few thousand dollars, please
18:58:13 <FireFly> They're probably expensive, I guess
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18:58:27 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and once you give me those thousand dollars, you can have shit contrast ratio too
18:58:43 <ehird> Big, high-dpi, good contrast ratio.
18:58:55 <ehird> Mandatory extra pick: Costly.
18:58:58 <AnMaster> is that as in "bad" or "stuff"
18:59:15 <ehird> English takes words that mean anything to the nth level :)
18:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about ones based on plasma
18:59:25 <AnMaster> what is the downside with them
18:59:31 <ehird> blurry, aren't they?
18:59:33 <ehird> only usable for tvs
18:59:50 <ehird> also, very power hungry
18:59:59 <AnMaster> well I would want one of those monitors that are always used as reference monitors in monitor tests!
19:00:10 <ehird> [[Until the early 21st century, superior brightness, faster response time, greater color spectrum, and wider viewing angle of color plasma video displays, compared to LCD televisions, made them a popular display for HDTV flat panel displays. It was believed at the time that LCD technology was suited only to smaller sized televisions, while plasma technology was more competitive at larger sizes, particularly 40 inches (100 cm) and above. Improvements in V
19:00:13 <ehird> LSI fabrication technology have narrowed the technological gap. The lower weight, falling prices, and often lower electrical power consumption of LCDs make them competitive with plasma television sets.]]
19:00:18 <nooga> ſ was forbidden on þe end on or þe begining ?
19:00:23 <ehird> [[Plasma displays are bright (1000 lux or higher for the module), have a wide color gamut, and can be produced in fairly large sizes, up to 381 cm (150 inches) diagonally. ]]
19:00:28 <ehird> plasma displays use as much power as crts I think
19:00:48 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Nominal power rating is typically 400 watts for a 50-inch (127 cm) screen. Post-2006 models consume 220 to 310 watts for a 50-inch (127 cm) display when set to cinema mode. Most screens are set to 'shop' mode by default, which draws at least twice the power (around 500-700 watts) of a 'home' setting of less extreme brightness.]]
19:00:59 <ehird> 700 watts can power a high-end gaming pc
19:01:06 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
19:01:21 -!- nooga has joined.
19:01:27 <ehird> [[Plasma TVs also do not exhibit an image blur common in many LCD TVs]]
19:01:36 <nooga> okay, now þisſhould work properly
19:01:38 <ehird> plasma displays are cool if you don't mind paying through the roof in both cost and power
19:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: you can set it to anything personally
19:01:57 <ehird> it's just to woo customers in a shop window
19:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that is the bit I called cheating
19:02:22 <Deewiant> They're just names for preset brightness settings
19:02:26 <ehird> yeah, what Deewiant said
19:02:36 <Deewiant> It makes sense for them to be really bright in a shop, so you can see the picture :-P
19:02:55 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
19:03:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Ah yes often lots of lamps there indeed...
19:03:02 <Deewiant> And I guess you can actually compare stuff like colours better that way
19:03:04 <ehird> hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha:
19:03:07 <ehird> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/6ft-by-150-inches--and-thats-just-the-tv-768862.html?action=Popup
19:03:10 <ehird> WORST DEMONSTRATION PICTURE EVER
19:03:11 -!- nooga has joined.
19:04:16 <ehird> AnMaster: do you seriously have to ask that? :D
19:04:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what would you have preferred?
19:04:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it is certainly not the usual style they use
19:04:48 <ehird> something that isn't two fat people, one of which looks like he's looking at the other's pants :)
19:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
19:05:12 <ehird> i'm just saying what it actually is
19:05:17 -!- nooga has joined.
19:05:28 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:05:42 <pikhq> MY HAND ITCHEÞ! TOO MUCH! VERY ANNOYING!...EÞ!
19:06:37 <ehird> pikhq: EXCESSIVE MASTURBATION CAUSES ITCHY HANDS. YOU ARE CURSED... FOREVER!
19:06:40 <ehird> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA—what.
19:06:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, you don't spell "itches" as "ITCHETH"
19:07:03 -!- nooga has joined.
19:07:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I realise it was back-converted.
19:07:19 <AnMaster> but it seems either you typoed or my script is buggy
19:07:20 <ehird> itcheth is perfectly valid olde english
19:07:39 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck you :)
19:07:41 <AnMaster> nooga, what are you talking about
19:07:54 <ehird> AnMaster: he's written a script to do the same as pikhq/GregorR.
19:07:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: he is a bit sluggish
19:08:39 <nooga> but at leaſt it works
19:08:58 <AnMaster> I rewrote that back-converter script for xchat btw. Out of wanting to help the people in here out of the pain this causes.
19:09:00 <ehird> pikhq: IT IS A FAKE SIN, WHICH IS JUST LIKE A SIN EXCEPT NOT A SIN
19:09:12 <ehird> AnMaster: unsurprisingly, you're the only one it bothers.
19:09:26 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm not bothered by it
19:09:28 <nooga> AnMaſter: þis is fun
19:09:40 <pikhq> AnMaſter: Unſurpriſingly, your monitor ſucks.
19:09:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you want to pay for a better one?
19:10:17 <pikhq> No. Get ſomeþing wiþ a greater þan 4 DPI or a better font.
19:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, ok, hypocrite alert
19:10:27 <nooga> i like þat, eſpecially þat i don't ſee my converted text as converted
19:10:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, font is Dejavu Mono Sans 9
19:10:44 <ehird> AnMaster: everytime you criticize something I will hold you to buying a better monitor for the person you target it at.
19:10:44 <AnMaster> don't remember which the name is
19:10:57 <pikhq> (if þ and p are indiſtinguiſhable, the ſame for f and ſ, ſomeþing ſucks.)
19:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you meant about your suggestion about me paying for that monitor before?
19:11:12 <ehird> 19:09 AnMaster: pikhq, so you want to pay for a better one?
19:11:51 <pikhq> AnMaſter: I have þe ſame font. It's very eaſy to tell þe letterſ apart.
19:12:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends on monitor DPI and how your good your sight is and several other things...
19:13:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, the main issue is with the upper case Th one and P
19:13:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: I can tell the different with my freaking glasses off.
19:13:14 <AnMaster> I checked on a screenshot in gimp. Two pixels differ
19:13:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, without glasses I can't tell what it reads on the screen AT ALL
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19:13:56 <AnMaster> unless I'm like 10 cm from it (rather than the usual 60 cm
19:14:31 <pikhq> Hmm. I should start using þ in my smilies to annoy AnMaster. :p
19:14:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is easy to tell apart
19:15:27 <AnMaster> <oerjan> :thulhu <-- forgot the c...
19:15:28 <pikhq> You ſuck at þis, BTW.
19:15:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, what was that supposed to mean....
19:16:03 <ehird> kay, dpi all works lovely. Now I just need to find a 12" 1280x1024 OLED display :-P
19:16:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: did not forget, left out on purpose
19:16:31 <ehird> "Everett, who believed in quantum immortality[7], died" —Wikipedia
19:16:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, why? I haven't read anything by Lovecraft...
19:17:28 <ehird> lovecraft is awesome
19:18:06 <oerjan> ehird: also, Everett only died in _this_ world, obviously
19:18:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:18:13 <ehird> oerjan: i know, it just made me lol
19:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I have been considering it. But I saw that book in a shop and it was extremely thick... something like 7 cm...
19:18:19 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
19:18:20 <ehird> i'm partial to many worlds myself
19:18:25 <fungot> asiekierka: desconsertante, esperaba oir la voz de un hombre jajaja, pero no se ve una gran trama... pero bueno en las peliculas de accion lo mas importante no es precisamente la trama. it was remote controlled
19:18:29 <ehird> AnMaster: His stories are short.
19:18:32 <ehird> That would be a collection
19:18:45 <fungot> asiekierka: what about the flying club which staged the show and forgetting sarah marshall? i heard from seeing this video.
19:18:46 <ehird> Just read The Call of Cthulhu :-)
19:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, necrocomicon? something like that I believe the title was
19:19:29 <AnMaster> (or is that the one found on the Disworld? Don't remember the spelling...)
19:19:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Necronomicon is a fictional book invented by Lovecraft.
19:19:44 <AnMaster> (obviously the discworld one was a parody on it)
19:19:59 <ehird> Probably the title was reäppropriated for a collection of his stories.
19:20:02 <AnMaster> ehird, ah they probably called the collection that then...
19:21:54 <ehird> it seems to be wishful thinking that I could purchase a 12" OLED display at such a high resolution
19:22:05 <ehird> especially as I want it raw (to put in a laptop chassis)
19:22:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I never heard of anyone building a laptop
19:23:02 <AnMaster> maybe due to them being so compact
19:23:13 <ehird> AnMaster: i want a netbook that's extremely light and small but still usable for typing etc
19:23:21 <oerjan> all you need is a good hammer
19:23:24 <ehird> current crop sucks
19:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be quite a bit trickier than building a normal desktop computer
19:23:36 <ehird> so the idea is: buy laptop chassis, buy thin components, hack at them until it all fits
19:23:52 <AnMaster> due to the compactness and often non-standard card size to fit in and such
19:24:00 <ehird> AnMaster: heck, even most motherboard chipset heatsinks stick up too high
19:24:05 <AnMaster> I'm not sure you could get all the components easily
19:24:08 <ehird> also their upwards ram mounting system
19:24:19 <ehird> (needs to be sideways for flatness)
19:24:31 <ehird> I wonder how the macbook air does it
19:24:39 <ehird> You couldn't even fit a fan or a drive in a case that thin
19:24:47 <AnMaster> which is why the performance sucks so bad
19:24:56 <ehird> AnMaster: the macbook air performance is fine
19:25:02 <ehird> it's a core 2 duo w/ 2gb ram
19:25:05 <ehird> (the higher model that is)
19:25:11 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/MacBook_Air_black.jpg
19:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird, it is thinner at the edges
19:25:24 <ehird> i can't see an opportunity for a fan, drive, heatsink, anything really
19:25:28 <AnMaster> so it does seem thinner than it actually is
19:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3217
19:26:20 <ehird> i thought you didn't trust anand :)
19:26:45 * ehird clicks printed version to avoid the woes of multi-page articles
19:26:53 <ehird> "The big black thing that takes up the majority of the real estate is the Air's battery"
19:27:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I always want to verify tests and such. "Trust him about this product being oh so great" is rather different from "showing the inside of a computer model"
19:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, the ssd article had benchmark results
19:27:30 <ehird> including descriptions of which benchmarks were run
19:28:18 <ehird> "The MacBook Air hard drive is a 1.8", 5mm thick PATA drive from Samsung. It features a 8MB buffer and spins at 4200RPM."
19:28:22 <ehird> now THAT's tiny/slow!
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19:34:34 <ehird> ofc i'm rather picky about what i'd want
19:34:42 <ehird> built-in wifi/3g, for one
19:34:51 <ehird> although i could perhaps use a pci/e card at a stretch
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19:43:14 <ehird> oerjan: btw, is it the actual quantum immortality position that you can't die in your own world, as opposed to only not being able to die via quantumly means?
19:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but it all depends on what you benchmark. I'm not saying SSD is bad. I'm just saying I'm not going to blindly trust a single source about them
19:43:37 <AnMaster> or anything else where I plan to buy something
19:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: he used standard industry drive performance benchmarks
19:43:48 <ehird> there's not really anything else more thorough you could do...
19:43:53 <oerjan> ehird: the former i assume
19:44:07 <ehird> oerjan: it seems rather wishful
19:44:38 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But they don't tell everything. Reading about user experience with the units is also relevant.
19:44:54 <AnMaster> and yes I never said SSD was bad.
19:44:58 <nooga> who's got red beard?
19:44:58 <ehird> AnMaster: http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2008/10/so-i-got-one-of-new-intel-ssds.html
19:45:02 <ehird> good enough for you? ;)
19:45:06 <oerjan> ehird: _every_ mean is a quantum mean
19:45:16 <AnMaster> Just I never trust one single source where I plan to buy something
19:45:19 <ehird> oerjan: but the whole thing seems wishful
19:45:44 <ehird> oerjan: i'm just wondering why they think it apart from pure wishfulness
19:46:50 <oerjan> (also why the heck are you asking me...)
19:47:03 <ehird> oerjan: you're a mathematician. mathematicians know everything to do with mathematics.
19:47:06 <ehird> "A committed atheist, he had asked to be thrown out with the trash after his death."
19:47:20 <ehird> "Everett's daughter, Elizabeth, suffered from schizophrenia and committed suicide in 1996 (saying in her suicide note that she was going to a parallel universe to be with her father)"
19:47:24 <ehird> I don't think it works that way
19:47:24 <nooga> average ruby code looks like: @a = a; @b = b; ...; @n = n; some.quite.long.dot.chain.map! {|lalala| ... }.something
19:48:05 <oerjan> well no they don't, also many worlds is a physical theory, at least at the level where quantum immortality would happen...
19:48:17 <ehird> oerjan: well yes they do! :-)
19:49:45 <AnMaster> Torvalds blogs... didn't think he was that type
19:50:01 <oerjan> he started very recently
19:50:20 <ehird> oerjan: erm he started in 2008-10
19:50:27 * coppro tries to imagine RMS bloggin
19:50:38 <ehird> http://stallman.org/
19:50:46 <ehird> it's a bit too lo-fi to be called a blog exactly
19:50:51 <ehird> but it's just as obnoxious as your average on
19:51:01 <ehird> hahaha he still has the don't buy harry potter books then
19:51:08 <ehird> at the top of his page
19:51:19 <ehird> http://stallman.org/images/cartoon-economists.png
19:51:31 <ehird> How to know your comic sucks ass: you label things.
19:51:40 <ehird> It's a meter four, see!
19:52:04 * oerjan recalls triangle & robert's sheep
19:52:29 <ehird> "US citizens: The site change.org allows people to propose and support political ideas. One that I supported is a new investigation of how the 9/11 attacks were carried out, and who was responsible."
19:52:34 <ehird> hahaha he's a truther?
19:52:52 <ehird> "As individual suspects, Bush and Cheney must not be punished without being convicted in a fair trial. As the level of politics, however, given that they blocked and corrupted the investigation into their possible guilt, we must consider them guilty until a real investigation is allowed."
19:53:02 <ehird> As we all know, people are guilty until proven innocent, if we don't like them.
19:54:09 <oerjan> well, not everyone. but you are.
19:54:29 <ehird> Also, free speech only applies to people who are right.
19:54:44 <psygnisfive> ofcourse! if you're wrong, you have to pay to speak..
19:54:50 <oerjan> yes, lefties are commies and should have no free speech
19:55:26 <oerjan> heck they don't really want it anyway
19:55:44 <oerjan> as soon as they get power, they abolish it
19:57:06 <oerjan> same with the chinks and the niggers in africa
19:57:13 <comex> I should argue that SILENCE violates the right of participation in the fora
19:57:21 <nooga> nigger nigger nigger nigger
19:57:43 <ehird> Nigger is a word meaning nigger.
19:57:48 <ehird> Why are we talking about niggers again?
19:57:53 <ehird> That bloody racist.
19:58:26 <oerjan> it's not racism if it's a fact. look at how the chinks are _helping_ the niggers in africa get rid of free speech.
19:59:04 <oerjan> and a little genocide on the side
19:59:26 <ehird> Genoside on the cide
19:59:56 <nooga> there are black ppl everywhere
20:00:07 <oerjan> we should always be on the side of the genes. how can that be racism?
20:00:41 <oerjan> nooga: well that's because they're breading like pigs
20:00:46 <nooga> and they start to force western europe to obey them in some way
20:01:17 <oerjan> actually that should be rabbits, at least for the muslims, they don't care for pigs
20:01:39 <nooga> in Poland: muslims come and say "obey our stupid rights to kill our wives" and poles don't give a fuck, beat them hardly and let them go to their countries
20:01:49 <oerjan> the chinks do though, that's why we have so much flu
20:01:51 <nooga> "We didn't invite you. eot."
20:02:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:02:14 <nooga> ppl are sooo untolerant here
20:06:09 <nooga> is there a way to order something in an internet store and recieve that without having them know who you are?
20:06:21 <nooga> anonymous mailbox? ;f
20:08:42 <ehird> nooga: just use their generated address
20:08:45 <ehird> and click on it after using it
20:08:55 <ehird> then you can just trash it
20:09:11 <ehird> nooga: erm a po box or sth?
20:09:15 <ehird> i think you can't do that by design
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20:10:00 <ehird> nooga: can't you just use a fake name
20:10:26 <ehird> but po box seems to be the thang
20:10:26 <nooga> funny thing that you could send mail without post stamps: enter reciever as sender, you as a reciever, put thing in mailbox
20:10:38 <nooga> the letter will be sent to the right person
20:11:21 <ehird> nooga: only in poland i assume
20:11:30 <nooga> but they've noticed it
20:11:39 <nooga> and it does not work anymore
20:11:57 <nooga> because mail without post stamps was supposed to be sent back to the sender
20:19:47 <nooga> when i write my name and surname
20:20:32 <nooga> i should use: Marcin Gasperowicz or Martin Gasperowicz or Martin Gasperovitch
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20:30:07 <ehird> ais523: how does eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer work?
20:31:55 <ehird> ais523: didn't help.
20:34:28 <GregorR-L> Why, there's no eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer page on the wiki.
20:35:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Why, you've ſtopped þe ſcript.
20:36:39 <ehird> your mother is lame
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20:37:18 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Þou ſeëſt þat we care not.
20:38:03 <ehird> the two Es are pronounced the same
20:38:05 <psygnisfive> fix it to at least do long-s where it should be: non-word finally not after a long-s
20:38:13 <ehird> ¨ represents two vowels in a row that are pronounced differently
20:38:22 <GregorR-L> pſygnisfive: Uhhhhh, þat's what it doþ do.
20:38:52 <pikhq> ehird: I was wondering if þou wouldſt catch þat. :p
20:38:55 <ehird> seëst is pronounced seh-ehst
20:39:02 <ehird> which is dumbtarded :)
20:39:18 <pikhq> psygnisfive: ſee-est.
20:39:22 <GregorR-L> pſygnisfive: Every inſtance of it in þat laſt ſentence, and þis one, is non-word-final and not after a long-s ...
20:39:25 <pikhq> psygnisfive: ſee-eſt.
20:39:33 <myndzi> shouldn't that be seést?
20:39:45 <pikhq> myndzi: Not in Engliſh.
20:39:58 <myndzi> oh right, i'm reading up
20:40:02 <psygnisfive> GregorR-L: : yes, and yet a non-word-final not-after-long-s "s" was NOT converted!
20:40:07 <myndzi> but i've never seen ë in english
20:40:34 <pikhq> psygnisfive: s before f is always ſhort.
20:41:15 <ehird> psygnisfive's name is ghoti
20:41:18 <GregorR-L> I was told by pikhq to do it at way, and I'm waaaay to lazy to look it up.
20:41:40 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
20:41:55 <pikhq> Þou wouldſt do well to do þe ſame.
20:42:08 <myndzi> ha ha ha! all your work is wasted! i just replaced them all back to something that looks right
20:42:22 <GregorR-L> myndzi: Þou ſeem to have done þat much faſter þan AnMaſter.
20:42:55 <pikhq> myndzi: Uſing AnMaſter's ſcript? It's quite broken. Þought þou ſhould know.
20:42:57 <myndzi> correction: seemest! (seem'st?)
20:43:14 <myndzi> no, i just added an input filter in my own script
20:43:19 <myndzi> to turn all the unicodes back to their proper letters
20:43:39 <pikhq> Ah. So, not AnMaſter's broken ſcript.
20:43:48 <myndzi> placement doesn't matter in that case, obviously ;)
20:43:54 <myndzi> so i can ignore the rules
20:44:43 <pikhq> I ſould ſtab þou hard.
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20:45:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: /topic #esoteric #eſoteric: ...
20:46:26 <pikhq> Alſo, əſötərıc FTW?
20:46:41 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
20:48:29 -!- nooga has joined.
20:49:06 <pikhq> It's actually ſtill in (rare) uſe, moſt people juſt ignore it.
20:49:08 <ehird> it's the most beautiful-est archaism ever
20:49:26 <pikhq> Deewiant: IIRC, a few publications ſtill use it.
20:49:33 <myndzi> i've seen accents not dots
20:49:36 <Deewiant> pikhq: Yes, but it's still archaic.
20:49:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floptical
20:49:41 <nooga> what's eomdermderomedomromeodmeormeormormodmeoreodmeofmeormdoemroemdomeroemdoer
20:49:43 <myndzi> but not for the double vowel thing
20:50:12 <GregorR-L> Naïve is ſtill conſidered correct.
20:50:21 <pikhq> The New Yorker, for example, ſtill uſes it.
20:50:40 <GregorR-L> Þe diacritical mark in Engliſh means "pronounce þis vowel ſeparately, not as a diphtong"
20:51:22 <pikhq> Engliſh needs it, IMO.
20:51:34 <ehird> the new yorker is so pretentious :)
20:51:54 <pikhq> ehird: Correct Engliſh is pretentious now?
20:52:04 <ehird> the new yorker is pretentious in general
20:52:51 <pikhq> nooga: Þat's moſt commonly uſed in the Romanization of Japaneſe.
20:53:25 <pikhq> Macrons are uſed to elongate everything *but* i.
20:53:39 <pikhq> i is doubled, inſtead.
20:54:25 <pikhq> "Benkyō shimasu" is an obvious example...
20:54:28 <ehird> Instyd of ryplacing all vywyls with q, how abyt jyst ryplacing a, e, u, ae and ou with y?
20:55:01 <ehird> Actuylly, ryplace i wyth y too.
20:55:09 <pikhq> ehird: I killeſt þou.
20:55:32 <pikhq> BTW, y in Welſh is a single vowel. ;)
20:55:41 <ehird> pykhq: Shyt yp (ooh, thyt doysn't work too wyll), hythyn.
20:56:24 <ehird> o ynd y: thy two myn vowyls of thy world.
20:56:27 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Welſh has fun phonemes. ;)
20:56:28 <nooga> i get spam in Welsh
20:56:45 <nooga> a friend of mine skeaks fluent welsh o.o
20:57:31 <myndzi> Q qqqq, qqq'q qqqq qqqqqqq QQQQQQQQQQ qqqq Q!
20:57:35 <pikhq> I wonder how one ſkeaks.
20:57:43 <ehird> Ryplacying yll syqyncys of vowyls ypyrt from o wyth y ys a fyn thyng to do.
20:58:00 <myndzi> i'll replace your mom with a y
20:58:37 <pikhq> ehird: It doeþn't make Engliſh incomprehenſible, but only becauſe Engliſh is comprehenſible wiþout vowels.
20:58:54 <pikhq> Fr 'xmpl, cnſdr þs ſntnc.
20:59:12 <myndzi> i'd like to buy a vowel
20:59:31 <pikhq> 'nglſh 's vry wll ſrvd by 'n 'bjd.
20:59:34 <ehird> Ryplycying syqyncys of vowyls ypyrt from o ynd u wyth y ys a fun thyng to do. (Us yre sycryd.)
20:59:57 <pikhq> ' knw, bcs my cſtm wrtng ſyſtm 's 'n.
21:00:25 <myndzi> has started a new Hangman game!
21:00:28 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: Left: 10)
21:00:52 <myndzi> each letter counts as a guess
21:00:54 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: e Left: 9)
21:00:57 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþ Left: 7)
21:01:08 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþa Left: 6)
21:01:11 <myndzi> it doesn't count utf-8 properly
21:01:12 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas Left: 5)
21:01:18 <myndzi> i figured you guys were talkin about how you didn't like vowels
21:01:20 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas° Left: 4)
21:01:39 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas°r Left: 3)
21:01:42 <myndzi> (Hangman) ??????? (Guessed: eþas°rŧ Left: 1)
21:01:44 <myndzi> (Hangman) Game over! (Answer: godhood)
21:01:45 <myndzi> but that's not really true, this is just my favorite hangman word to use
21:02:04 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Dammit, I was trying for -1 guesses left
21:02:22 <myndzi> probably would have worked too
21:02:24 <pikhq> Deewiant: It'd be even nicer to have -2.
21:02:46 <Deewiant> pikhq: Or -3. Of course, if it accepts -1 you can probably do any -n.
21:02:51 <myndzi> guess i spelled it wrong
21:02:51 <pikhq> Þough for þat, you'd need ſomeþing out of þe BMP, m'þinks.
21:03:15 <myndzi> actually, no it wouldn't have worked
21:03:21 <myndzi> it's seeing your utf-8 characters as separate letters
21:03:31 <myndzi> and it already has support for not going negative
21:04:00 <myndzi> myndzi has started a new Hangman game! (Hint: lols)
21:04:02 <myndzi> (Hangman) ????????? (Guessed: Left: 10)
21:04:08 <myndzi> (Hangman) ?o?e??i?? (Guessed: auy Left: 7)
21:04:09 <myndzi> !guess abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
21:04:09 <myndzi> (Hangman) Game over! (Answer: something)
21:04:20 <myndzi> one fun thing i used to do when i ran this script is
21:04:27 <myndzi> when i have a guess for the word,
21:04:35 <myndzi> i'd try to come up with a !guess that would say something and also win
21:04:47 <myndzi> (say the remaining letters in the correct order without running out of guesses, but in sentence form)
21:05:08 <myndzi> hmm, something's wrong
21:05:15 <myndzi> maybe it can't find the wordlist
21:05:40 <myndzi> .....or i could have forgotten my own syntax
21:06:02 <myndzi> !hang aeiouy ?o?e??i??
21:06:16 <ehird> !hang abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ?f?t?r??f
21:06:25 <myndzi> the letters are exclusions
21:06:42 <myndzi> aarrghh abalone abandon abasers abashed abashes abasias abasing abaters abating abators abattis abaxial abaxile abbotcy abdomen abduced abduces abducts abelian abelias abettal abetted abetter abettor abeyant abfarad abhenry abiders abiding abigail ability abioses abiosis abiotic abjured abjurer abjures ablated ablates ablauts ablings abluent abluted aboding abolish abollae abomasa abomasi aborted aborter
21:06:43 <myndzi> abought aboulia aboulic abounds abraded abrader abrades abreact abreast abridge abroach abrosia abscess abscise abscond abseils absence absents absinth absolve absorbs abstain absurds abubble abulias abusers abusing abusive abuttal abutted abutter abvolts abwatts abysmal abyssal abysses acacias academe academy acajous acaleph acanthi acapnia acarids acarine acaroid acaudal acceded acceder accedes accents
21:06:44 <myndzi> accepts accidia accidie acclaim accords accosts account accrete accrual accrued accrues accurst accusal accused accuser accuses acedias acequia acerate acerber acerbic acerola acerose acerous acetals acetate acetify acetins acetone acetose acetous acetyls achenes achiest achieve achiote acholia acicula acidify acidity aciform
21:06:52 <myndzi> i knew someone'd do that eventually :\
21:06:58 <myndzi> 'something' must not be in the ospd3
21:07:01 <myndzi> not the ideal wordlist i guess
21:07:01 -!- whtspc has joined.
21:07:23 <FireFly> Meh, I couldn't know what'd happen, could I?
21:07:36 <FireFly> [22:06:42] <myndzi> aarrghh
21:07:56 <myndzi> probably not a dictionary word
21:08:05 <myndzi> if someone wants to link me to a proper wordlist i'll put that in :P
21:09:00 <myndzi> if you wanna screw around there's also /msg myndzi !hangman #channel "word or phrase" hint text
21:09:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("But ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ").
21:10:18 <Deewiant> myndzi: Maybe http://rs249.rapidshare.com/files/81559933/1.5_Million_Word_List.rar is better
21:10:21 <FireFly> Do you always get 10 guesses?
21:10:43 <ehird> !hangman #esoteric "word or phrase" hint text
21:11:07 <myndzi> Deewiant: i have a bigger one but it's a little bit too big :)
21:11:21 <ehird> myndzi: that's what
21:11:32 <myndzi> Deewiant: it takes a long time to search
21:11:59 <myndzi> it's a silly mirc script
21:12:02 <myndzi> it just uses /filter with a regex
21:12:21 <FireFly> the problem isn't the size, it's what it's implemented in :P
21:12:23 <myndzi> which itself is reasonably fast, just not on 200mb files
21:12:37 <myndzi> none of the filtering is done in mirc script :) so it's pretty fast
21:12:49 <FireFly> I don't remember that much from when I scripted in mIRC
21:12:57 <myndzi> 200mb was the COMPRESSED version
21:12:58 <FireFly> But I remember that vars are stored in external files
21:13:07 <myndzi> that musta been a long time ago
21:13:15 <myndzi> they still are, but local variables are in memory
21:13:34 <myndzi> and i'm pretty sure the variable file is cached in memory too
21:13:44 <myndzi> but i'm reasonably certain it's not held in a hash table or something useful like that
21:13:58 <ehird> FireFly: But I remember that vars are stored in external files
21:14:00 <ehird> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttt
21:14:25 <Deewiant> myndzi: A 200-megabytes-compressed wordlist? Nice.
21:14:42 <Deewiant> I think the biggest I have/had lying around is 70 uncompressed
21:16:15 <AnMaster> /dev/sr0: ERROR: cannot read `/dev/sr0' (Input/output error)
21:17:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cd works in other computer. Guess I will have to shut down and check that every cable is properly attached...
21:17:38 <AnMaster> (since I had to move stuff around in the computer recently)
21:18:38 <myndzi> Deewiant: that's pretty much why it is slow :)
21:18:40 <AnMaster> very well. It isn't urgent, while other stuff is. And I will have to shut down soon anyway, since one of the fans in the computer is breaking down...
21:18:53 <AnMaster> the replacement one should arrive at Monday
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21:20:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There are plenty of parts that could be broken in such a way that discs can't be read but the mechanism still works.
21:21:02 <Deewiant> (On the software side too, I guess.)
21:21:09 <AnMaster> well I do have some other old optical units... could use one of them
21:21:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes. rebooting is worth a try. later
21:21:33 * AnMaster wonders about streaming cd across network
21:21:41 <AnMaster> since the other computer is headless
21:21:58 <Deewiant> If your network is fast enough, the drive will be the bottleneck :-P
21:22:20 <AnMaster> cat /dev/sr0 | nc and nc | aplay ?
21:22:32 <AnMaster> but that seems like a bad solution
21:23:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, [computer with working cd player] - 100 mbps ethernet - [gbit ethernet switch] - gbit ethernet - [computer with speakers]
21:23:38 <AnMaster> but what is a good WAY to do it
21:23:53 <ehird> why is that a bad solution
21:23:56 <ehird> that's what nc is designed for
21:24:05 <Deewiant> ehird: It transmits the whole disc needlessly.
21:24:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well.. aplay directly won't work.
21:24:13 <Deewiant> cat /dev/foo is quite wasteful.
21:24:19 <AnMaster> I want to listen to the 5th track
21:24:22 <Deewiant> If he just wants to play a track
21:24:30 <ehird> ehm ripping a cd takes like 3 minutes
21:24:34 <ehird> shorter than you've been taling
21:24:38 <ehird> so why does it matter
21:24:45 <AnMaster> ehird, 3 minutes? the computer is an old pentium3
21:25:02 <ehird> it's IO-bound you doofus
21:25:11 <ehird> everything to do with CDs is IO-bound
21:25:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iirc. might be 2x... *wonders how to check*
21:25:58 <AnMaster> there is no speed written on the drive itself
21:26:05 <Deewiant> So if you have a 650 MB disc that's 18 minutes
21:26:27 <Deewiant> Just ripping the one WAV that you want would take a lot less than that
21:26:32 <ehird> ... 650 MB disc that's 18 minutes?
21:26:44 <ehird> 'scuse me, what sort of huge 18 minutes is this?
21:27:08 <Deewiant> ehird: 650 MB / 0.6 MB/s = 18 minutes
21:27:51 <ehird> You meant, to rip.
21:27:56 <ehird> I thought you meant 18 minutes of audial content.
21:28:52 <AnMaster> anyway. It is 4x. Says cdparanoia
21:29:02 <Deewiant> Then it's the 0.6 MB/s I was using above.
21:31:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so those 3 minutes were a bit low estimate
21:31:16 <ehird> i was assuming a modern ~40x drive
21:31:24 <Deewiant> Well, you've been talking 15 minutes now ;-)
21:31:29 <AnMaster> ehird, the broken drive is 40x
21:31:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it as been ripping for ~7 minutes
21:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, it is 48x even...
21:33:43 <AnMaster> now reading on the "broken" drive works in cdparanoia. Not with file though
21:34:15 <AnMaster> it is finding the drive at /dev/sg1 instead of the usual /dev/sr0
21:34:15 <ehird> cdparanoia bypasses the device layr
21:34:23 <AnMaster> NOW THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AT ALL
21:34:48 <AnMaster> file -s /dev/sg0 can't read it still
21:38:30 <AnMaster> eject /dev/sg1 doesn't do anything, eject /dev/sr0 ejects the expected drive
21:40:29 <AnMaster> it behaves more sanely for data cds
21:41:03 <AnMaster> I mean, nothing can play them now
21:44:53 <AnMaster> ls shows a file is there. tab complete claimed it wasn't. Until I waited for half a minute
21:46:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw the music cd seems to have been a full 700 MB? I didn't know that was valid for music cds
21:46:52 <AnMaster> on the other hand I can't see a good reason for it to not be valid.
21:48:23 <AnMaster> track00.cdda.wav: RIFF (little-endian) data, WAVE audio, Microsoft PCM, 16 bit, stereo 44100 Hz
21:49:13 <AnMaster> od shows it is mostly zero bytes
21:49:21 <ehird> it's probably a data track
21:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/1441501
21:51:14 <AnMaster> I was wondering what on earth this one was!
21:52:03 <AnMaster> well maybe cdparanoia -B generates that
21:52:08 <AnMaster> haven't noticed it before though
21:56:25 <AnMaster> ok... /dev/sg* seems to be character device access to drives (not sure which types of drives yet... since I have sg0 to sg3 and just two harddrives (one sata and one pata) and one cd/dvd drive...)
21:58:12 <AnMaster> why does it play so much lower than usual....
21:58:39 * pikhq observes that a music CD can have up to 800 MB.
21:59:01 <pikhq> A 700 MB CD-ROM has 100MB of data correction overhead.
22:10:58 <AnMaster> hm.. http://pastebin.ca/1441510
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22:12:35 <AnMaster> that happens every time I try to read an *audio* cd
22:18:08 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Except at it's practically guaranteed to be flawed :P
22:18:41 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away.
22:21:11 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun.
22:22:25 <AnMaster> would this mean the issue is purely a software problem?
22:23:31 <AnMaster> since 1) only audio cd, 2) only accessing it using the usual sr interface that most software players use. 3) cdparanoia reads it using the sg interface. Not sure if it usually does that...
22:27:06 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No, it's not. A CDDA also contains error correction.
22:28:22 <GregorR-L> Not to my recollection, but þat's hardly my area of expertiſe :P
22:30:58 <pikhq> CDDA includes cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon coding.
22:32:10 <pikhq> Which is a slightly complex parity scheme.
22:50:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:17:09 <ehird> "Or were you referring to Intel macs, rather than Apple macs?"
23:17:16 <ehird> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt
23:26:55 <ais523> actually, what about IBM macs?
23:27:50 <ais523> I was drawing an analogy with Intel macs
23:33:26 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:42:16 <pikhq> IBM Macs? Well, IBM could in *theory* have gone into the Mac clone business when Apple allowed it.
23:42:52 <pikhq> It'd be funny if Intel made some Macs, though.
23:47:05 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:48:06 <ehird> Finding somewhere that sells OLED displays is hard.
23:48:16 <pikhq> The OS X EULA forbids installing OS X on "non Apple-labeled computers".
23:48:41 <ehird> pikhq: No, that loophole won't work.
23:48:51 <pikhq> ... Wouldn't sticking an Apple label on a computer work? :p
23:48:54 <ehird> They have the cash to paper over that loophole, you don't.
23:49:00 <ais523> people have discussed that quite a bit
23:49:08 <ehird> pikhq: but, nothing's stopping you ripping out the EULA
23:49:10 <ais523> although I can't remember what the conclusions were
23:49:17 <ehird> so that you never run it
23:49:23 <ais523> I think it was argued that the EULA meant "was labeled by Apple"
23:49:26 <pikhq> The more valid question is: does that count as an antitrust violation?
23:49:27 <ehird> although that's probably illegal too
23:49:37 <ais523> so it doesn't matter what sort of label's on there, just so long as Apple put it there
23:49:41 <ehird> apple are perfectly allowed to require their users only to sue it on their hardware
23:50:07 <ais523> myndzi: congrats on knocking defend9 off the top spot
23:50:21 <ais523> did you improve your programs, or is the hill just more hostile to defend9alikes now?
23:50:23 <pikhq> ehird: Unless it's determined that, in doing so, they are violating antitrust laws.
23:50:31 <ehird> pikhq: Burden of proof
23:50:34 <ais523> ehird: have you seen defend9 by the way? it's insane
23:50:44 <pikhq> Any such bundling, though probably legal, is a somewhat tricky area.
23:52:05 <pikhq> Not going to definitively say anything, of course, since, well, I don't have the time or give-a-damn to read hundreds of pages of legalese.
23:52:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:52:24 <pikhq> (I assume the US antitrust laws consume one or more volumes)
23:52:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Sounds about right.
23:54:46 * pikhq observes that if companies like Psystar were smart, they wouldn't have OS X preinstalled. They would instead have an EFI computer and a Darwin driver disk. Maybe also sell OS X discs.
23:56:01 <ehird> they can't legally sell OS X discs
23:56:05 <ehird> Psystar is simply an illegal business.
23:56:28 <ehird> i don't like their business at all
23:56:44 <pikhq> I assumed that you would read "Maybe" as "if they could get to be Apple authorised resellers somehow".
23:56:54 <ehird> Likelyhood of that: vanishingly small.
23:57:13 <pikhq> They could legally sell a computer with EFI and some Darwin drivers, though.
23:57:26 <ehird> Hackintoshes are stupid, just use Linux :P
23:57:36 <pikhq> After all, EFI is an open standard and Darwin is a free operating system.
23:58:11 <pikhq> Heck, they could even have a GNU/Darwin install on there and say "Supports the Darwin operating system, that is the base of Mac OS X (wink wink nudge nudge)."
23:58:35 <pikhq> But just straight up selling OS X on the computer preinstalled? Dumber than a sack of rocks.
23:58:54 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/3neh_internalshr.jpg ← if there's one thing a mac pro has over a regular pc it's a well-designed interior...
23:59:14 <ehird> (That bottom compartment slots out.)
23:59:33 <ehird> (It's actually a separate daughterboard that the RAM is on.)
23:59:39 <ehird> (And the CPUs. Go figure.)
23:59:49 <ehird> Huh, those CPUs look fanless.
23:59:58 <ehird> Must be cooled by case fans. Or the fans are in the heatsink.
00:00:14 <pikhq> Mmm, yeah. Apple does very good hardware design.
00:00:26 <pikhq> ehird: There's large fans to the side of the heatsinks.
00:00:45 <ehird> Bit of a restrictive grill there
00:00:48 <ehird> I'd mount them directly on the heatsink
00:01:08 <pikhq> They probably did that for noise reasons.
00:01:22 <ehird> pikhq: Then they're dumb. That obstruction will make the fans whine
00:01:25 <pikhq> By having them to the side of the heatsink like that, they can have a large, low RPM fan.
00:01:28 <ehird> (and indeed, I've heard reports about whining under load)
00:01:36 <ehird> pikhq: Those heatsinks are big enough to fit a 120mm fan
00:01:47 <ehird> Just like the higher-end PC CPU heatsinks
00:02:12 <ehird> But seriously, it's two Nehalem Xeons. Those things are gonna need high RPM fans at load regardless of anything else.
00:02:54 <pikhq> Oh, right. They use *Intel* processors.
00:03:02 <pikhq> You can cook eggs on them if you're not careful.
00:03:04 <ehird> Since 2005, bud. :P
00:03:23 <ehird> But yeah, I'd scrap the grill and mount the fans directly on the heatsink.
00:03:37 <ehird> I wonder how they got the CPU/RAM on another board? I don't think that's in any consumer-purchasable motherboard setup.
00:03:40 <pikhq> Intel's had CPUs you can fry eggs on since about 2001. :p
00:03:55 <pikhq> ehird, that's not hard to do, actually.
00:04:04 <pikhq> First, they design the motherboard.
00:04:16 <ehird> pikhq: Apple use Tyan server-grade motherboards.
00:04:28 <ehird> but they don't make their own
00:04:43 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out).
00:04:44 <pikhq> It's a matter of having the FSB go over the edge connector is all.
00:05:00 <ehird> (Mac Pros also use server RAM w/ ECC. You need a server board for two Nehalem processors (which also requires you use Xeon, not i7, iirc), but they seem to be doing it willingly too.)
00:05:05 <ehird> pikhq: no performance hit?
00:05:18 <ehird> Oh, oh, really stupid thing about new Mac Pros;
00:05:24 <ehird> Here's the selection of graphics cards:
00:05:26 <pikhq> Why *would* there be a performance hit?
00:05:39 <ehird> [[NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB
00:05:39 <ehird> 2x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $150.00]
00:05:40 <ehird> 3x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $300.00]
00:05:42 <ehird> 4x NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB [Add $450.00]
00:05:44 <ehird> ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB [Add $200.00]]]
00:05:59 <ehird> You can choose up to 4 low-end consumer cards, or one low-high-end gamer's card!
00:06:08 <ehird> In a professional's ultra-high-end boutique machine!
00:06:21 <pikhq> It's not like having the electrons go through a connector instead right on the board makes them magically go slower.
00:06:29 <ehird> pikhq: True, but, longer distance :P
00:06:52 <pikhq> And electrons travel a bit short of the speed of light.
00:07:03 <ehird> pikhq: http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/14benchwellht.png Okay, WTF. Yeah, okay, so hyperthreading thrashes the cache. SO WHY IS IT SO GODDAMN FAST!
00:07:39 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:07:46 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/16power.png ← Huh, I wonder what Apple did to keep the power consumption so low?
00:07:50 <ehird> 378 watts at load is great.
00:07:59 <ehird> (For a dual-high-end processor machine w/ 12GB of RAM)
00:08:01 <pikhq> ehird: Because rendering doesn't use the cache that much?
00:08:10 <ehird> pikhq: Er, whyever not?
00:08:24 <ehird> SourceForge Acquires Ohloh
00:08:25 <ehird> Today SourceForge has acquired Ohloh. We at Ohloh are pretty awed and excited at the opportunity (and challenges) ahead. I plan on blogging more deeply over the next few weeks but I wanted to give you some background on why this makes se... CONTINUE...
00:08:59 <pikhq> ehird: Because you don't exactly access the same memory all that close to the same time in a render?
00:09:02 <ehird> pikhq: Hahahaha. The low-end gfx cards the Mac Pros ship with,
00:09:15 <ehird> is just a rebranded GeForce 9500 GT. Which is the ultra-crappy $40 card I got for bsmntbombgirl's rig.
00:09:24 <ehird> But you can have FOUR of them!111111
00:09:45 <pikhq> Not that Apple charges $150 for each additional card in there.
00:09:56 <ehird> pikhq: Alternatively, you can have a gaming card. Never mind, say, a Nvidia Quadro or Tesla.
00:09:59 <ehird> No, this is totally a gaming machine.
00:10:13 <ehird> Not even a 4890 or an X2. It's just one 4870.
00:10:21 <ehird> Well, anyone knows that Apple is $$$.
00:10:36 <ehird> They just shove the costs for assembly and general design sense and OS onto the other components.
00:11:02 <pikhq> If I'm spending $450 on GPUs, I'm thinking a Tesla would be nice. :p
00:11:08 <ehird> 16GB (8x2GB) [Add $500.00]
00:11:08 <ehird> 32GB (8x4GB) [Add $6,100.00]
00:11:16 <ehird> Bit of a price jump there; wonder where they got 4GB sticks of DDR3?
00:11:21 <ehird> I didn't know they even existed.
00:11:36 <pikhq> (knowing my usage of GPUs, if I'm spending that much, then it's for GPGPU usage)
00:11:48 <pikhq> ehird: Note the price. That's why you don't see them much. ;)
00:12:21 <ehird> *gawp*. The Apple Cinema Displays — you know, really nice things —
00:12:23 <ehird> They now use OLEDs.
00:13:03 <ehird> They're just calilng LCD "LED".
00:13:09 <ehird> Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid
00:13:49 <pikhq> I didn't know that liquid crystals had anything to do with light-emitting diodes.
00:14:07 <pikhq> Dammit, people: these terms mean something other than "LAWLZ IT SHOWS STUFF".
00:15:34 <ehird> [[New LA-based Mac cloner hopes to magically alter status quo
00:15:34 <ehird> Yet another company has decided to toss its hat into the Mac cloning ring. This latest venture hopes to avoid Psystar's fate by opening a retail store to supplement online sales. Can we get a WTF?]]
00:15:41 <ehird> pikhq: How apropos to what you were saying.
00:16:04 <ehird> [["It's exciting. We are trying to stay as close to Apple as we can with our products," Rashantha De Silva, Quo founder, told CNET. "We are trying to mimic things as much as we can. I'm hoping that Apple sees the value in what we are doing."]]
00:16:10 <ehird> For values of "value" equal to "ripping you off".
00:17:18 <myndzi> it's not ripping them off if they're overchanging anyway
00:17:36 <ehird> how does that follow at all
00:17:42 <myndzi> if apple products are overpriced simply because there's no competition
00:17:47 <myndzi> than having competition doesn't = "ripping them off"
00:17:53 <ehird> they're overpriced because they're overpriced
00:17:54 <myndzi> it's a conditional statement
00:17:57 <ehird> myndzi: what they're doing is illegal
00:18:06 <myndzi> what are they doing that is illegal?
00:18:08 <pikhq> Make a very nice EFI-based machine and do the whole wink-wink nudge-nudge thing.
00:18:10 <myndzi> i honestly haven't followed this
00:18:18 <ehird> myndzi: selling computers with os x on them
00:18:22 <ehird> a violation of the OS X EULA
00:19:21 <myndzi> have eulas even been tested to hold up?
00:19:31 <ehird> apple sued the pants off a company doing the same
00:19:41 <ehird> but eulas themselves aren't generally held to work uncontroversially
00:19:48 <ehird> this is fairly unquestionably illegal, though
00:20:00 <ehird> anyway, apple products aren't overpriced because of a lack of competition; they're overpriced because they're boutique
00:20:02 <myndzi> if you can't buy a computer with OS X on it
00:20:06 <myndzi> what are people who buy apple products doing?
00:20:27 <ehird> myndzi: apple are an apple-partnered retailer, and they sell Apple-labeled computers
00:20:39 <ehird> you can install OS X on apple-labeled computers, and you can sell computers with OS X on them
00:20:50 <ehird> they're selling computers that they installed OS X on that aren't apple-labeled
00:20:53 <ehird> therefore they are breaking the law
00:21:10 <myndzi> seems silly anyway but *shrug*
00:21:24 <ehird> myndzi: Apple are a hardware company that only survive because of their software.
00:21:27 <ehird> It's an odd situation.
00:21:43 <ehird> They wouldn't make enough money if they just sold OS X for PCs, but nobody really buys an Apple because of its hardware.
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00:29:29 <ehird> "(for example, getting up close to the Mona Lisa reveals the crackled texture of the dried oil paints, not a bunch of little Mona Lisas)"
00:29:53 <ehird> It's Mona Lisas all the way down.
00:31:54 <ehird> http://i42.tinypic.com/302yjdg.png
00:31:59 <ehird> That rightmost compression is amazing.
00:32:02 <coppro> the question is whether that part of the EULA is enforceable
00:32:03 <ehird> Too bad it's a blackbox windows binary.
00:32:27 <ehird> coppro: well, apple don't sell "Mac OS X", they sell "Mac OS X for use on Apple Macintosh computers"
00:32:48 <coppro> but that may be illegal
00:32:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: what's Odikeh's rationale?
00:33:13 <coppro> EULAs are high on the list of contracts that may be viewed as unenforceable for the position they put the consumer it
00:33:30 <GregorR-L> ehird: Odikeh was a conlang, þe Odikeh alphabet was juſt þe alphabet for it.
00:34:16 <ehird> I put English in it, see.
00:35:11 <ehird> What would be fun is a Standard English Abbreviated Alphabet.
00:35:23 <ehird> e.g., "the x" could be x with a slash or something.
00:37:11 <ehird> pikhq: http://imgur.com/0dPo3.png
00:37:56 <GregorR-L> Yeah, Odikeh haþ more letters þan Engliſh, but haþ no upper- vs lower-caſe, ſo a few of þe upper-caſe letters are unuſed.
00:38:12 <ehird> I just typed it in the original cas.
00:38:19 <ehird> i.e., T is the only uppercase.
00:38:27 <GregorR-L> A few of þe lower-caſe letters are unuſed too, mebbe :P
00:38:39 <GregorR-L> It's been at leaſt a year and a half ſince I've looked at it.
00:38:39 <pikhq> GregorR-L: My custom script is an English shorthand. ;)
00:38:54 <GregorR-L> Þy cuſtom FACE is Engliſh ſhorþand
00:39:03 <GregorR-L> Whoops, definitely ſhouldn't be a þorn þere.
00:39:07 <pikhq> If I had a scanner, I'd give some examples.
00:39:16 <ehird> pikhq: Just use the GIMP or something
00:39:27 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Shortḧand?
00:39:41 <coppro> what's with these thorns and such?
00:39:42 <ehird> pikhq: h is not a vowel
00:39:47 <ehird> coppro: GregorR-L wrote a scirpt to do it
00:40:27 <pikhq> Somewhere here, I have a script to start up a nice Xnest for Gimpiness.
00:40:45 <ehird> pikhq: HAY TILING WMS ARE AWSUM
00:40:47 <GregorR-L> .... why do þou need an XNeſt for þe GIMP?
00:41:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: it uses 3 windows
00:41:04 <ehird> and he uses a tiling wm
00:41:13 <ehird> so it fucks up because his WM sucks and forces everything into an unnatural layout.
00:41:23 <ehird> So he needs an xnest to make it seem like one window.
00:41:53 <pikhq> And Xnest is broken.
00:41:59 <GregorR-L> Is þere any caſe of þe word "do" where "doſt" is incorrect?
00:41:59 <pikhq> Off to workspace two, then.
00:42:00 <ehird> xnest, as an side, is sucky; there should be a way to use it without starting a whole new server.
00:42:04 <ehird> It doesn't need that.
00:42:24 <GregorR-L> No, þere is. To doſt þat would be bad. (<-- example)
00:42:55 <ehird> Right, I'm bringing back a letter of my own.
00:43:43 <ehird> But eth doesn't feel very th to me.
00:44:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Perhaps yoȝ.
00:44:27 <ehird> Ȝes, this could be nice. Albeit rare.
00:44:46 <GregorR-L> I only brought back letters þat had digraph replacements *ſhrugs*
00:45:01 <GregorR-L> OK, þe long-s þing is juſt ſillineſs :P
00:45:12 <ehird> GregorR-L: It's y and gh and stuff.
00:45:32 <ehird> The disadvantage to this is that Y AND GH ARE REALLY UNCOMMON.
00:45:40 <GregorR-L> But þe Ȝ->y was more of a letter evolution þan a linguiſtic change, waſn't it? Þat is, þe letter is þe ſame, it juſt looks different.
00:46:08 <kerlo> ...hey, you said that.
00:46:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: No; the letter is "yogh", which was spelt yoȝ.
00:46:15 <ehird> So it's not *exactly* modern y.
00:46:34 <GregorR-L> kerlo: Yeah, but not every inſtance of "do" can be changed for "doſt" :(
00:46:59 <ehird> dz with a flick, bitch.
00:47:15 <kerlo> Hey, you got the s at the end of a word right.
00:48:28 <kerlo> Though perhaps "ſillineſs" should be written with... that fancy German lowercase SS thing.
00:49:37 <ehird> Esh (majuscule: Ʃ, minuscule: ʃ; Unicode U+01A9, U+0283) is a character used in conjunction with the Latin alphabet, introduced by Isaac Pitman in his 1847 Phonotypic Alphabet to represent the voiceless postalveolar fricative (English sh), and is today used in the International Phonetic Alphabet as well as in the alphabets of some African languages.
00:49:39 <ehird> Its lowercase form ʃ is similar to an italic long s ſ or an integral sign ∫; its uppercase form Ʃ is based on the Greek letter sigma.
00:49:51 <GregorR-L> at's not a dead letter, at's a was-never-alive letter :P
00:49:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: btw, you can use ∫ as an s thing that looks italic.
00:50:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ʃut up, anyway; I'll use this ʃit if I like.
00:50:24 <kerlo> So, I think I may drop s2.normish.org. There's a good chance that ehird would encourage me to do so.
00:50:35 <ehird> kerlo: Yer a mind reader :P
00:51:04 <kerlo> Is there some backstory where?
00:51:12 <ehird> eh, maybe I'll just use the schwa. dəmon.
00:51:23 <ehird> Ou (Majuscule: Ȣ, Minuscule: ȣ) is a ligature of the Greek letters ο and υ which was frequently used in Byzantine manuscripts. This ligature is still seen today on icon artwork inside Greek Orthodox churches.
00:51:30 <GregorR-L> kerlo: And ehird being all wompo about it
00:51:44 <kerlo> GregorR-L: ask him; I don't think there's much to explain.
00:52:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: I just thought that the idea of starting a nomic from scratch was the silly. Also he used mysql and PHP and stuff and *vomit*
00:52:31 <GregorR-L> OH, I þought it was ſomeþing about þe domain name itſelf.
00:52:49 <ehird> Turned v (majuscule: Ʌ, minuscule: ʌ) is a letter of the Latin alphabet, based on a turned form of V.
00:52:56 <ehird> I declare it to mean fjkghdfiugherdfl.
00:53:30 <kerlo> "is a letter of the Latin alphabet"? Which Latin alphabet is that?
00:55:46 <kerlo> Hmm, I like the Unicode character LATIN LETTER TWO WITH STROKE.
00:56:05 <pikhq> Okay, I created a rough example via the GIMP.
00:56:09 <kerlo> Because 2 is totally a letter now.
01:01:49 <kerlo> Anyway, I think I'll write my vowels enPR-style.
01:03:25 <kerlo> Just as soon as I manage to install the Alt-Latin keyboard layout.
01:07:04 <kerlo> Th@ kwik brown fox jumps _ov@r th@ l_az_e däg.
01:07:21 <kerlo> Actually, circumflexes work pretty nicely.
01:07:43 <kerlo> Th@ kwik brown fox jumps ôv@r the@ lâzê däg.
01:08:55 <kerlo> Is this môr ôr less @nnôying th@n Greg@rR's schêm?
01:10:06 <kerlo> Yôô didn't êv@n ûz th@ sâm w@rd f@r "has".
01:10:31 <GregorR-L> At leaſt mine is all valid Engliſh (of ſome era)
01:10:40 <ehird> pikhq: PINGGGGGGGGG
01:10:55 <kerlo> Wh@t's invalid @bowt mîn?
01:12:18 <kerlo> If yôô wont, sâ Î'm just wrîting pr@nuncêâsh@nz insted @v spellingz.
01:12:36 <ehird> kerlo: Yours is so annoying that I refuse to read it.
01:12:37 <GregorR-L> Did ou really pronounce 'l' twice ere? ;)
01:13:00 <kerlo> And yes, Î am ûzing cons@n@nts s@mw@t inc@nsist@ntlê.
01:13:24 <GregorR-L> I actually find at quite readable.
01:14:06 <kerlo> Well, how wood Î distingwish b@twên "unâmd" and "unnâmd" if Î didn't pr@z@rv cons@n@nt lengths?
01:15:57 * GregorR-L is trying to decide what "unamed" means.
01:16:37 <kerlo> It mêns "not âmd".
01:17:41 <GregorR-L> e ing is, ou actually pronounce e n twice in un-named.
01:18:01 <GregorR-L> But þou don't pronounce þe l twice in ſpelling (ſpe*ling)
01:18:28 <kerlo> (Shoodn't that bê "pronouncest" or something?)
01:18:37 <kerlo> I guess I don't do it.
01:18:54 <kerlo> Î gess Î dôn't dôô it.
01:19:05 <GregorR-L> Let's not get all ſchwer-pedantic.
01:20:18 <kerlo> C@nect tôô Nôrmish and run @ whôôiz. :-P
01:20:47 <kerlo> quasnaart pts/1 May 17 00:37 (97-84-4-245:S.0)
01:20:48 <kerlo> tetsu pts/7 May 28 16:29 (m7a5e36d0:S.0)
01:20:48 <kerlo> tetsu pts/0 May 29 23:37 (m7a5e36d0:S.1)
01:20:48 <kerlo> tetsu pts/5 May 29 23:39 (m7a5e36d0:S.2)
01:20:48 <kerlo> ihope pts/8 May 30 12:40 (c-98-209-136-197.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
01:20:50 <kerlo> tetsu pts/9 May 30 02:00 (m7a5e36d0:S.3)
01:20:57 * coppro is irritated by Enigma's last tutorial level
01:21:38 <kerlo> Î w@nd@r whî Î dôn't hav @ :S.0 aft@r mî hôstnâm.
01:26:05 <pikhq> ehird: http://imgur.com/B8SqH.png
01:26:30 <kerlo> Now, to start working on a different project to replace Normish! >:-)
01:26:44 <kerlo> Which I say solely to scare ehird.
01:27:10 <pikhq> Very, *very* rough example.
01:27:16 <pikhq> Bezier curves ahoy.
01:27:18 <kerlo> (Hey, "solely" is another double-consonant word.)
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01:56:56 <bsmntbombgirl> http://static.arstechnica.com/macpro0409/3neh_internalshr.jpg
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03:15:04 <bsmntbombgirl> the most expensive i could make a mac pro was $15k :(
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03:41:24 <kerlo> ¿El agua hierve? ¿Qué hierve?
03:42:45 <pikhq> bsmntbombgirl: LAME.
03:43:01 <pikhq> I can get a system up beyond that before starting on hard drives.
03:44:02 <pikhq> (granted, with hard drives, the theoretical max is oo. There's RAID chassis that hook up via eSATA. Infinite storage FTW)
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04:05:47 <zzo38> Hay! You told me I didn't need a e-mail address to register
04:05:59 <zzo38> But now it says I do
04:06:18 <zzo38> It also says I need to register and IDENTIFY to post message on ##C channel.
04:06:34 <zzo38> But IDENTIFY is not a valid command and I can
04:06:47 <zzo38> 't register without password/email but I don't want either of those things
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06:23:25 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10
06:23:36 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 80.1
06:24:53 <GregorR-L> Alſo, you're not allowed to frown after getting þe top ſcore.
06:25:28 <Patashu> ya but I might be abusing... ~~:'(~~ HASH BASED RANDOMNESS ~~:'(~~
06:26:55 <pikhq> BTW, "you" would be correct in this case.
06:27:14 <GregorR-L> I þought "þou" was juſt þe polite form of "þou"
06:27:20 <GregorR-L> I thought "thou" was just the polite form of "you"
06:27:29 <GregorR-L> And so both are correct in any case.
06:27:39 <Patashu> anyway it ought to cause maximum discomfort to programs that expect a certain behaviour
06:27:41 <pikhq> "Thou" is the polite second person singular.
06:27:47 <Patashu> because it does not attack every third cell and has mod 3 behaviour
06:27:55 <pikhq> "You" is the impolite second person singular and the second person plural.
06:29:43 <Asztal> thou was the impolite one, I think
06:30:53 <GregorR-L> Note: "In Old Engliſh, generally, þou is þe language of a lord to a ſervant, of an equal to an equal, and expreſses alſo companionſhip, love, permiſsion, defiance, ſcorn, þreatening: whilſt ye is þe language of a ſervant to a lord, and of compliment, and furþer expreſses honor, ſubmiſsion, or entreaty." --Skeat.
06:31:17 <GregorR-L> It's hard to ſpeak a language I don't actually ſpeak :P
06:31:22 <pikhq> Asztal: Ah. Right.
06:33:04 <pikhq> COMMIES ARE PINK AND ÞEY ÞINK!
06:33:53 <GregorR-L> It's juſt not ... modern Engliſh :P
06:34:02 <pikhq> Þis is more Engliſh þan you would ever know.
06:34:16 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's considered modern Engliſh. Early Modern, to be ſpecific.
06:34:23 <pikhq> s/considered/conſidered.
06:34:37 <GregorR-L> pikhq: In þe ſame way þat cro-magnon is human. Juſt not Anatomically Modern Homo Sapiens Sapiens (AMHSS)
06:34:51 <GregorR-L> pikhq: But y'know what people ſay as ſhort for AMHSS? Modern human.
06:35:22 <pikhq> I ſentence you to 100 years of Chaucer.
06:35:45 <GregorR-L> I ſentence þou to 100 years as a Homo Heidelbergenſis.
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06:41:03 <pikhq> "Þyself þou þouëst."
06:44:26 <GregorR-L> I þee þy þou, and raiſe þee þe þouſands!!
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07:27:43 <GregorR-L> Pataſhu: Pataſhu_2_3weave doþ in fact do far worſe wiþ different randomization :P
07:27:49 <GregorR-L> Patashu: Patashu_2_3weave does in fact do far worse with different randomization :P
07:35:51 <myndzi> seems to be pretty common
07:36:01 <myndzi> the random thing is gonna have to change if we are to have any chance of optimizing things based on the code itself
07:36:34 <GregorR-L> But if þou give me ten minutes to get þe initial cache, I þink it ſhould be faſt enough for normal runs.
07:36:59 <myndzi> i like that two of my programs are near the top after that change :>
07:37:07 <myndzi> maybe now i can optimize them 'for realz'
07:37:09 <Patashu> else 2/3weave would go dooown
07:37:22 <GregorR-L> What difference ſhould conſtitute a win?
07:37:27 <myndzi> well somebody tell me when to check
07:37:29 <GregorR-L> OK, even I'm getting tired of at :P
07:37:33 <myndzi> GregorR-L: ideally it should be scored on everything
07:37:48 <myndzi> if it were me, i'd give each program X points for a win and Y for a tie
07:37:58 <myndzi> so if they win all matches against another program, that's 21*X
07:38:00 <Patashu> are you checking reverse polarity as well?
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07:38:27 <myndzi> maybe divide it by something to keep them from getting out of hand, i dunno how the results would be with just that simple scoring
07:38:46 <GregorR-L> Well, it would be from -20 to 20 for each run.
07:38:50 <myndzi> but if you have the info from 21 battles, it seems kind of arbitrary to "reduce" that information to just win or loss
07:39:03 <Patashu> you'd reduce it to a fractional win/loss I presume
07:39:17 <Patashu> 20 wins and 1 loss would add 19/21
07:39:35 <myndzi> i don't really know why? the most wins is the most desirable
07:39:46 <Patashu> instead of + - and 0 though
07:39:56 <Patashu> you'd need some set of 1 or 2 symbols indicating what amount was won/lost
07:39:57 <myndzi> oh, yeah. i don't know what you will do there
07:40:02 <GregorR-L> More accurately, that's a major change to the system ^^
07:40:08 <myndzi> http://sal.math.ualberta.ca/hill.php?key=94b
07:40:13 <myndzi> ^ an example of a pretty decent way to do it
07:40:21 <myndzi> what, running against all lengths ISN'T a major change? :)
07:40:51 <Patashu> ah, that doesn't display it as a grid
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07:41:09 <myndzi> i thought you meant results wise
07:41:22 <myndzi> Patashu: click the name of one warrior
07:41:22 <GregorR-L> myndzi: There are two components, the interpreter and the reporter. The only interaction between them is execl.
07:41:39 <GregorR-L> I kind of don't want to change that, since I'd like the interpreter to be usable independently ...
07:42:00 <myndzi> GregorR-L: have the interpreter return a score
07:42:13 <myndzi> wins-for-1st-program wins-for-2nd-program ties
07:42:26 <GregorR-L> myndzi: return ohyeahthat'srightthisisaninteger;
07:43:03 <myndzi> technically you COULD do it like...
07:43:14 <myndzi> ties + losses * 32 + wins * 32^2
07:43:35 <myndzi> or for the lazy ties & losses << 5 & wins << 10
07:43:39 <myndzi> or something like that
07:43:53 <myndzi> or have the reporter run the interpreter 21 times
07:43:59 <myndzi> instead of running the multiple runs in the interpreter
07:44:09 <myndzi> then you can get individual results using your precious return ;)
07:44:59 <GregorR-L> Somebody give me a quick lesson on associative arrays in Python :P
07:45:23 <myndzi> Otyg - Holy Diver (03:51)
07:45:26 <GregorR-L> I'm not really that much of a Pythoner, but I've decided to be.
07:45:27 <myndzi> haha this sounds amusing
07:45:32 <myndzi> i like the dio version much better
07:45:50 <Patashu> http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html#mapping-types-dict not good enough for you?
07:46:08 <myndzi> how do i get hg to update a cloned directory?
07:46:13 <myndzi> hg update doesn't seem to do it
07:47:14 <GregorR-L> hg up updates from your /working directory/ from the /local repository/, hg pull updates your /local repository/ from the /remote repository/.
07:47:47 <myndzi> i just realized when i rebooted i lost my query scrollback to EgoBot
07:47:52 <myndzi> and thus all the code i was playing with
07:48:45 <myndzi> i don't know if you heard it, but i guess the package in ubuntu was old, that's why i had problems
07:48:51 <myndzi> i installed the windows one and it worked great
07:49:03 <myndzi> took me quite some time to figure out how to display the most recent version of a deleted file though
07:51:58 <GregorR-L> That sort of stuff, not getting it installed.
07:52:19 <myndzi> yeah, i just was saying it 'cause i think you went off before i got it working
07:58:20 <GregorR-L> OK, I just set it up to use polarity too.
07:58:44 <myndzi> so far it hasn't updated for me, is it still (re?) running?
07:59:35 <GregorR-L> 400 runs as in 20 programs vs 20 programs.
07:59:46 <GregorR-L> (Which is a huge overestimate, actually, but eh :P )
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08:00:00 <GregorR-L> Hey look, slowrush is back on top :P
08:00:18 <myndzi> i still get the old report though
08:01:00 <Patashu> you'd only need 210 matcups
08:01:32 <Patashu> would be the number of ways to order 20 elements
08:01:37 <Patashu> and is also a VERY big number
08:01:41 <Patashu> what you want is 1+2+3+...20
08:01:56 <myndzi> i forget, but there's a simple formula for it
08:02:13 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust pooper_scooper (>(-)*32>(+)*32)*5[>[-].+]
08:02:21 <GregorR-L> That will take a long while, because it's running a full uncached run.
08:02:23 <myndzi> oh now the report blanks
08:02:38 <myndzi> i figure this'll show us the real report
08:02:52 <myndzi> 20^2 + 20 doesn't sound right
08:02:57 <myndzi> the squared part, i mean
08:03:11 <myndzi> right, but i remember vaguely this formula and that doesn't sound correct
08:03:17 <Patashu> try and plug in the numbers
08:03:50 <myndzi> but i could have sworn there was a -1 and some shit
08:03:50 <Patashu> hmm so if entering the hill is going to be expensive from now on
08:03:57 <myndzi> maybe there's another formula for the same thing
08:04:07 <GregorR-L> Patashu: It's not that bad, it's just that this is an uncached run.
08:04:09 <myndzi> Patashu: not this bad, once it caches all the matchups
08:04:11 <GregorR-L> It's still on the order of a few seconds.
08:04:17 <Patashu> could you add another command that doesn't enter a program on the hill but instead makes it do a match against a program on the hill with your program and return the result
08:04:29 <Patashu> EVERY matchup just for the first time
08:04:40 <Patashu> then after that you only need 20
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08:05:14 <myndzi> that's the formula i knew
08:05:18 <myndzi> which is of course n^2+n
08:05:22 <myndzi> but that's why it looked weird to me
08:05:39 <Patashu> why does it need to do a match of x against y then y against x :)
08:05:43 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_pooper_scooper: 28.0
08:05:57 <GregorR-L> Patashu: It doesn't, but the framework is from and old system where it does, and it's threaded so it's hard to fix that >_>
08:06:18 <myndzi> 16 | + + + 0 + - + + + + 0 + + + + + + + + | 85.7 | 15 | myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust
08:06:36 <GregorR-L> 2 | - - 0 + + 0 - - - - - - - + + - + - - | 28.0 | -7 | GregorR-L_pooper_scooper.bfjoust
08:06:38 <myndzi> i still never managed to top 100 points
08:06:43 <Patashu> 2/3 weave is surprisingly good still
08:07:07 <Patashu> 3 | + + 0 + + + 0 - - + + + + + + 0 + 0 + | 71.3 | 11 | Patashu_2_3weave.bfjoust
08:07:10 <myndzi> and 3pass is still up there too, i am moderately happy about that
08:07:23 <myndzi> i don't want to work on optimizing them now but i'm glad i'll be able to try and tweak them better
08:07:34 <Patashu> I wonder if a 3/4weave would be worthwhile
08:08:23 <Patashu> (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10
08:08:35 <myndzi> i'm surprised it did that well, i guess the speed gain is worth it
08:08:47 <Patashu> -(step decrement step decrement step) loop
08:08:57 <myndzi> but, perhaps you can get the same score simpler by simply skipping those lines at the beginning
08:09:00 <myndzi> except i guess vs defend
08:09:35 <myndzi> i'm assuming that you're going to skip the flag X times
08:09:41 <myndzi> where X i haven't quite determined
08:09:48 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave >>>>>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10
08:09:49 <myndzi> and that if you put those skips at the start it will score similar
08:09:51 <Patashu> this is a decoyless version
08:09:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 51.5
08:10:05 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*4>[(+)*20[-]](+)*4>(+)*4)*10
08:10:06 <myndzi> 1) skipping will overstep the tripwires in defend
08:10:18 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 71.3
08:10:27 <myndzi> 2) since you don't skip them all at the start, hrm... maybe 2 is wrong
08:10:34 <myndzi> should have looked at what you lost points to
08:10:35 <Patashu> it will foil any setup that relies on multiple tripwires
08:10:43 <Patashu> and half the time it's going to be able to win it will foil a 1-tripwire setup
08:10:45 <myndzi> possibly, unless they are spaced right
08:10:54 <myndzi> 1/3 of the time it'll foil a tripwire
08:11:17 <myndzi> indeed, it is interesting
08:11:24 <myndzi> also note how fast your submissions were
08:11:29 <Patashu> note to self: fiddle with everything else now that I know there's no HASH BASED RANDOMNESS.
08:11:45 <myndzi> i felt bad for fiddling after i learned that
08:11:53 <myndzi> i had thought i was doing something like adjusting the timing
08:12:08 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust weirdo >((+>)*10(+<)*10)*128
08:12:24 <myndzi> one side effect of doing the scoring this way
08:12:29 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_weirdo: 0.0
08:12:31 <myndzi> is that you only have to win 51% to get points vs a program
08:12:44 <myndzi> which means you can effectively skip a large part of the tape for free
08:13:05 <Patashu> I thought you'd get more points for getting more wins vs losses against a specific program
08:13:13 <Patashu> so like 21/21 wins against a prog would help more than 11/21
08:13:22 <myndzi> Patashu: he hasn't done something like that yet
08:13:31 <myndzi> he just arbitrarily decides based on the results if it's a win or a loss or a tie
08:13:37 <myndzi> that's what i was talking about earlier
08:14:13 <Patashu> do the >> < >> < >> < thing
08:14:25 <myndzi> i've considered that multiple times
08:14:28 <myndzi> but it's just a great way to run off the tape
08:14:47 <Patashu> how about > decrement > decrement << > decrement > decrement <<...
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08:15:28 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>)*18(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15
08:15:44 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 4.3
08:16:10 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*9(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15
08:16:10 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_AHHHMOTHERLAND: 0.0
08:16:23 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 48.2
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08:16:46 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*3(>)*12(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15
08:16:59 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 35.0
08:17:12 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*5(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15
08:17:29 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 54.7
08:17:34 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*6(>(-)*20[-[+]])*15
08:17:50 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 57.1
08:18:13 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*4(>(-)*20[-[+]])*30
08:18:35 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 60.4
08:18:45 <myndzi> !bfjoust oddly (>(-)*19>(+)*19)*3(>(-)*20[-[+]])*30
08:19:09 <EgoBot> Score for myndzi_oddly: 44.5
08:20:03 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge [>]>([-].[+].[-]..[-].[+])*100
08:20:34 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 9.7
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08:22:11 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program>
08:23:04 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5
08:23:04 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5
08:23:06 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge [>](>([-].[+].[-]..[-].[+]))*21
08:23:18 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 0.0
08:24:14 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 12.5
08:24:38 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge [>](([+].[-].[+]..[-].[-])>)*21
08:25:04 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 0.0
08:25:05 <Asztal> it's supposed to kill the flag while most programs are still setting up the first defence cell
08:26:41 <Asztal> there's no way to actually do that, is there?
08:27:29 <myndzi> whoops i did something silly
08:27:38 <myndzi> i thought i'd do a rear attack
08:27:49 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge (>[+])*50
08:27:53 <myndzi> but of course, tapelength 20 doesn't mean flag @ 20, tapelength 30
08:28:02 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 19.0
08:28:06 <Asztal> that goes off the end every time, surely
08:28:34 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_test: 8.5
08:28:57 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge (>[+].>[-].)*50
08:29:11 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 28.5
08:30:53 <GregorR-L> Why is it that every time I make a (much requested) change to the hill, everybody immediately tries to break it? X-P
08:31:34 <GregorR-L> Well, "take advantage" is more accurate.
08:31:41 <myndzi> that's the nature of the game
08:31:57 <myndzi> if i don't do it someone else will :>
08:31:58 <GregorR-L> You should be taking advantage of the other code, not the scoring mechanism :P
08:32:07 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge >->+>->+>+>->+>+(>[+].>[-].)*50
08:32:09 <myndzi> i just wanted to see if it would work
08:32:14 <myndzi> i was mixed up in my head
08:32:21 <GregorR-L> Well, at least the scoring mechanism is basically fair now.
08:32:22 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 66.2
08:32:56 <myndzi> i appreciate your patience with our griping and your effort too
08:33:06 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_reverse_charge: 0.0
08:36:22 <myndzi> i own the hill again :>
08:40:19 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc: 13.4
08:44:25 <Asztal> how do you get a 0 on the hill now? do you need an equal number of wins and losses?
08:46:40 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc2: 19.7
08:47:09 <myndzi> heh i made keke2 a little better and might have done more, but primarily it just did better against my own warriors :P
08:47:25 <GregorR-L> OK, I implemented the more-points-for-more-wins mechanism.
08:47:40 <myndzi> maybe i'm about to lose the lead :)
08:47:41 <GregorR-L> I think I effed up the range of scores somehow :P
08:47:42 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_abc3: 8.2
08:47:53 <GregorR-L> No, your score is now OVER FOUR THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAND
08:48:47 <myndzi> gregor i just wanted you to know that i love you. in a totally not-gay way, of course.
08:50:22 <GregorR-L> I'm certainly not updating it in EgoBot until it works X-P
08:50:29 <GregorR-L> Yeah, all the scores are much lower now.
08:50:51 <GregorR-L> A score of 100 would mean that you won /every/ round, in /every/ configuration.
08:51:02 <myndzi> oh, so it's based on percentage?
08:51:24 <myndzi> am i still winnning? :D
08:51:55 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 12.3
08:52:00 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.(-.)*512>(+)*128.(++.)*512)*15
08:52:14 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 16.0
08:53:11 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 12.3
08:53:37 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*29
08:53:49 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 21.4
08:54:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +>>>>>>>>(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*21
08:54:13 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 20.5
08:54:24 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut +>--->--->>>>>>(>(-)*128.-.--.---)*21
08:54:34 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 21.3
08:54:38 <Patashu> !bfjoust waiter ((++-)*10000-(--+)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000
08:55:10 <myndzi> aw don't make me add all the blink defenses back in
08:55:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_waiter: 33.3
08:55:21 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(+.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2
08:55:31 <Patashu> don't think juggernaut's gonna work
08:55:33 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 20.4
08:55:37 <myndzi> guess it doesn't matter, ALL my warriors beat waiter
08:55:41 <Patashu> !bfjoust lazy >+>->++>-->--->+++>+>->((-.)*128>)*21
08:55:53 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_lazy: 11.9
08:56:57 <myndzi> time to see the new results
08:56:58 <GregorR-L> Now I have to kill both, 'cuz that'll be effy.
08:57:50 <GregorR-L> OK, now you'll have to wait again.
08:58:20 <Patashu> is it possible to make a program that does worse than <
08:58:28 <Patashu> by causing a turn 0 syntax error?
08:58:50 <GregorR-L> Yeah, it detects some syntax errors.
08:59:00 <GregorR-L> And that gives FULL points to the opponent.
08:59:23 <Patashu> only if the syntax error is encountered?
08:59:26 <myndzi> points for invalid code wasn't so cool
08:59:54 <GregorR-L> You'd have to read my increasingly-horrifying code to get all the possibilities :P
09:00:05 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_stall: 14.3
09:00:05 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_reverse_charge: 0.0
09:00:20 <Patashu> !bfjoust stall (+-)*100000
09:00:27 <Asztal> oh wow, that's a very different hill now
09:00:37 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_stall: 6.5
09:00:58 <GregorR-L> The points are now floating-point :P
09:01:32 <myndzi> interesting that defend7 does better than 9 now
09:02:07 <Patashu> !bfjoust stall ((+)*1001-)*100
09:02:41 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_stall: 14.3
09:02:52 <Patashu> so what does a +, - or 0 indicate on the grid now?
09:03:06 <GregorR-L> Patashu: It's a 0 iff every configuration ties.
09:03:36 <Patashu> what if it's 10 +s, 10 -s and a tie
09:03:56 <GregorR-L> More accurately, the number of wins equals the number of losses.
09:03:57 <EgoBot> Score for KingOfKarlsruhe_loop: 5.6
09:04:16 <Patashu> so it's just indicating more wins than losses or vice versa
09:04:20 <Patashu> could there be a degree of gradation to it?
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09:04:47 <GregorR-L> Patashu: YOU PEOPLE ARE NEVER HAPPY
09:04:52 <Asztal> !bfjoust charge >->+>->+>+>->+>+(>[+].>[-].)*11
09:05:00 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_charge: 18.7
09:05:39 <Patashu> bouncing permutations of rushpolarity off egobot
09:06:15 <Patashu> 2/3 weave now has positive points but low score
09:06:19 <GregorR-L> I kinda don't want to see rushpolarity go :P
09:07:00 <myndzi> that doesn't quite count ;p
09:07:10 <myndzi> nobody's looking there! hehe
09:07:34 <GregorR-L> Is somebody running them via query?
09:07:46 <Patashu> want me to stop for a mom?
09:07:52 <GregorR-L> Ah, that explains why report.txt keeps disappearing :P
09:08:05 <Patashu> trying permutations of rushpolarity
09:08:12 <myndzi> yeah, here's another one of those complaints: why clear it before you're ready to write to it? :P
09:10:43 <GregorR-L> myndzi: ../report ../egojoust ../cache *.bfjoust > report.txt
09:11:37 <myndzi> mk, i guess that's just what happens eh
09:13:05 <Patashu> it's so nice to see improvements come gradually
09:13:09 <Patashu> rather than in bumps and jerks
09:15:54 <GregorR-L> OK, I'm done hacking at EgoBot for the moment.
09:19:02 <Patashu> okay, after searching the local space I've determined this is better
09:19:04 <Patashu> !bfjoust rushpolarity >((+)*20>(-)*19>(-)*19>(+)*19)*2>([(+)*19[-]](+)*21>[(-)*19[+]](-)*21>)*11
09:19:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_rushpolarity: 53.5
09:20:12 <Patashu> next time on #esoteric, Patashu tweaks 2/3 weave
09:20:50 <Patashu> ON THE NEXT EPISODE OF DRAGON BALL Z...
09:21:40 <Asztal> I guess when mine loses, it *really* loses :(
09:21:49 <Patashu> yeah that's the weird thing now
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09:22:11 <Patashu> you can get lots of shallow losses or a few real bad ones
09:47:48 <myndzi> lol did we end up with practically the same program?
09:53:18 <myndzi> 16 69.88 12.60 myndzi_slowrush.bfjoust
10:28:18 <Deewiant> How does the scoring work now?
10:41:08 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES
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10:50:38 <GregorR-L> Heh, I just momentarily confused myself with the 0-100 thing.
10:50:54 <GregorR-L> Then I remembered that since you can't win against something which itself won against everything, you can never gain the >1 worth.
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11:31:33 <Patashu> rushpolarity lost a whole bunch?
11:31:39 <Patashu> was it beating slowrush before and now losing to it?
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11:51:34 <Patashu> now it's getting 0 for everything o.O
11:51:43 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5)
11:51:48 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0
11:51:53 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5)
11:51:59 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0
11:52:02 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*5>[(+)*21[-]](+)*5>(+)*5)
11:52:07 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 0.0
11:52:35 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*20>(-)*20)*4(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*10>[(+)*20[-]](+)*10>(+)*10)*10
11:52:42 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 14.9
11:53:54 <Patashu> brought to you by epicfailblog dot com
11:55:28 <Patashu> seems to be hovering at 20 now
11:56:55 <Patashu> !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*24)*2>>>>(>[(-)*20[+]](-)*6>[(+)*21[-]](+)*6>(+)*6)*10
11:57:02 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 20.1
11:58:24 <GregorR-L> ... wasn't it doing better before? :P
11:58:39 <Patashu> before you changed it to return how many times it won
11:58:48 <Patashu> is get lots of shallow wins
11:58:59 <Patashu> as opposed to programs which get deep wins against a few programs they counter
11:59:23 <Patashu> so it looks good on the grid but has a shitty score
12:03:44 <Patashu> that I want to use two 'repeats' for attacking; one that leaves decoys after it moves but later one that doesn't
12:03:53 <Patashu> because if the tape's that long it's probably long passed its opponent
12:03:56 <Patashu> that'll make it attack faster
12:05:54 <Patashu> odd. it doesn't appear to help at all (for rushpolarity)
12:07:51 <Patashu> okay, rushpolarity is now at score 41.45 points 4.76, 2/3weave is now at score 19.16 points 2.67
12:08:42 <Patashu> stall is a worse version of waiter so I might kill it
12:09:12 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_stall: 0.0
12:10:28 <Patashu> !bfjoust the_greatest_program_ever!!! +[>[-[+]]---]
12:10:43 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_the_greatest_program_ever___: 15.2
12:17:13 <Patashu> defend6 is by far the oldest program (since last revision) on the hill
12:17:47 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[>[-[+]]+]
12:17:56 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 28.2
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12:18:05 <GregorR-L> It might be that I just plain suck at BF Joust :P
12:18:16 <GregorR-L> But nobody'll play FYB, so what else am I to do? X-P
12:18:21 <Patashu> 8th on the hill yeah you're terribad
12:19:26 <Patashu> do I need to enclose my posts in XML tags indicating the tone to be read in?
12:19:58 <GregorR-L> I guess logicex-2 has a four-year streak as king of the hill.
12:20:39 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[>[(-)*5[+]]+]
12:20:46 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 30.8
12:20:56 <Patashu> think about whether you want lots of little decoys or fewer but bigger ones
12:21:13 <GregorR-L> Well, I'm thinking more about actually sinking the enemy flag :P
12:21:20 <GregorR-L> Which is perhaps not the real goal.
12:21:33 <Patashu> step 2. do it before they do it to you
12:22:26 <Patashu> there only seem to be so many variations on the basic program though
12:22:52 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(>)*2[+]]+(>)*2[+]]-]
12:22:58 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 0.0
12:23:28 <Patashu> can we get multithreading in bf joust?
12:23:57 <GregorR-L> !bfjoust parisian_monastery (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(-)*5[+]]+(>)*2[(-)*5[+]]-]
12:24:05 <EgoBot> Score for GregorR-L_parisian_monastery: 0.0
12:24:22 <Patashu> (>->+)*5[(>)*2[(>)*2[+]]+[(>)*2[+]]-]
12:26:55 <Patashu> what do you imagine the bombs in FYB looking like? this is an important question
12:27:26 <Patashu> ooh deeewiant's adding a new program
12:27:55 <Patashu> they're all slight tweaks on the
12:28:17 <Patashu> 2. use a loop like [(-)*n[+]]
12:28:26 <Patashu> 3. optionally set decoys while attacking
12:28:53 <Deewiant> Oh, is that what slowrush's success is based on? :-P
12:29:03 <Deewiant> Funny, I tried it pretty much by accident
12:29:32 <Patashu> slowrush looks more or less like rushpolarity now
12:30:29 <GregorR-L> Patashu: Most programs, since FYB has threads, employ multiple styles. My favorite style was logicex, or Logic Extermination, which looked for all logic in the program (loops, etc) and set bombs there, in the hopes that the logic would increase the chances of those spots being hit.
12:31:28 <GregorR-L> Simpler programs just looked for the enemy program counter and set a bomb in hopes that it would go there again, or focused more on defending ones one code than attack.
12:32:11 <Patashu> FYB cell arithmatic is mod 17?
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12:32:40 <Patashu> only powers of 2 are holy cretin
12:32:58 <GregorR-L> The reason for 17 was solely that that's how many commands I had :P
12:33:05 <Patashu> . and , are both nops already
12:33:45 <GregorR-L> I had some rationale maybe, or maybe it was just to make 17 instead of 16 to bother you.
12:34:00 <Patashu> it was in case you decided to make . output values to your opponent later
12:34:12 <Patashu> if you turn one half of a loop into a bomb in FYB
12:34:17 <Patashu> where does the other half send its pointer?
12:34:22 <Patashu> same place or is it ineffectual?
12:34:30 <Deewiant> Alright, monorail is #2, I'm happy with that
12:34:35 <GregorR-L> If there's no match, it's just like a nop.
12:34:47 <GregorR-L> Which is why you have to place a bomb just /after/ the loop :P
12:35:04 <Patashu> so a pointer in a :; loop can escape its loop if you change one half of it
12:35:07 <Deewiant> It's also the third-smallest program on the hill (unexpanded) :-P
12:36:39 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: 46.33 is pretty darn good in the new scoring system.
12:37:12 <Deewiant> But I guess I have the best score/size ratio
12:37:30 <GregorR-L> It's not the size that matters, it's what you do with it.
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12:46:55 <Patashu> op-code idea for FYB: swap program buffers but not code buffers :P
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13:24:56 <Patashu> 2/3 weave is now at 18.24, rushpolarity was at 36.76 now is 42.52
13:38:20 <Patashu> putting even one - or + on every cell you pass over vastly improves your score
13:38:30 <Patashu> since it forces any loop to be entered at the very least once
13:38:37 <Patashu> which takes them more cycles then it takes you
13:42:13 <Patashu> !bfjoust juggernaut >+>+>->->+>+>->-(>(-)*128.-.+)*29
13:42:19 <EgoBot> Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 18.6
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14:23:13 <AnMaster> [->-<] would be p[1] = p[1] - p[0]; right? For some reason this ends up as p[1] = 255 * p[0] + p[1] ... That can't be right...
14:25:10 <Patashu> is p[0] a negative number?
14:25:30 <AnMaster> Patashu, it is an unsigned char.
14:25:47 <AnMaster> the BF - is represented as += 255
14:26:20 <Patashu> if it's mod 256 arithmetic
14:26:25 <Patashu> aren't those two expressions equal?
14:26:39 <AnMaster> Patashu, that is what I'm trying to figure out
14:26:50 <Patashu> adding 255 is like taking away 1
14:27:32 <Patashu> are you using a bf optimizer?
14:28:04 <AnMaster> Patashu, but I'm not sure x - y = x + 255y (mod 256)
14:28:13 <AnMaster> which is what the code above seems to indicate
14:28:17 <Patashu> okay let's pretend that every time you hit 256
14:28:22 <Patashu> so if you add 256 that's like adding 0
14:28:32 <Patashu> adding 257 must be like adding 1
14:28:36 <Patashu> so...adding 255 is like subtracting 1
14:28:38 <AnMaster> the issue is that it turned into multiplication there
14:28:41 <Patashu> adding x*255 is like subtracting x
14:29:02 <Patashu> I have no reason to doubt it
14:29:17 <AnMaster> Patashu, I suck at this sort of math :/
14:31:20 <Patashu> did you have any other questions
14:31:47 <Patashu> p[1] = p[1] + 255*p[0] is equivalent to p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] in mod 256 arithmetic
14:31:57 <AnMaster> and yes it seems to be correct
14:32:11 <AnMaster> doesn't seem very logical to me :/
14:32:25 <Patashu> well let's take p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0]
14:32:36 <Patashu> now let's imagine that for every 1 in p[0] we also add 256
14:32:42 <Patashu> that's a nop right? since it's mod 256 arithmetic anyway
14:32:57 <Patashu> but we turn it into p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] + 256*p[0]
14:33:18 <Patashu> and if you can go one way you can go the other way
14:33:39 <AnMaster> ok seems to make sense. Of a kind
14:33:45 <Patashu> you agree that adding or subtracting 256 any integer amount of times is going to be a nop?
14:33:51 <Patashu> so you can implicitly do it in any expression anywhere in your code
14:33:57 <Patashu> and all it does is change the way it looks
14:35:01 <AnMaster> hm. So y = x*256 is same as y = x in mod 256
14:35:59 <Patashu> but y = x*256 is the same as y = x*0
14:36:05 <Patashu> and y = x*257 is the same as y = x*1
14:36:13 <Patashu> and y = x*258 is the same as y = x*2...
14:36:36 <AnMaster> this makes complete sense now :)
14:37:05 <Patashu> because if you add an extra k 256s for every 1 you find in x you do nothing
14:38:52 <AnMaster> so what would [+>+<] end up as... p[1] += 256-p[0] right? (of course followed by setting p[0] to 0 afterwards)
14:40:15 <Patashu> you add 1 to p[1] (256-p[0]) times
14:40:37 * AnMaster wonders what his compiler turns that out as now
14:42:30 <AnMaster> hm that turns into p[1] = 255 + p[1] - p[0] though
14:42:50 <AnMaster> that one surely can't be right
14:43:30 <Patashu> if p0 = 255 it executes once
14:44:10 <AnMaster> p[1] = 255 + p[1] - p[0] should be p[1] = 256 + p[1] - p[0] ...
14:44:22 <Patashu> which is equiv. to what you said it ought to be
14:44:50 <AnMaster> Patashu, I wonder how C will handle that since p is unsigned char* ...
14:45:41 <AnMaster> wait. it will promote to p[1] and p[0] short since 256 isn't in the range of unsigned char
14:46:12 <AnMaster> and uh... then *truncate* it back to unsigned char when assigning?
14:46:44 <Patashu> and we know it's right because we've deduced it logically earlier, that any addition or subtraction of 256 is a nop
14:46:59 <Patashu> even if it doesn't immediately click
14:47:04 <pikhq> Since this is all mod 256.
14:47:56 <AnMaster> Patashu, well... that is a bit messy, since I don't have -= anywhere in the compiler. I work with all positive values due to implementation language issues (that is: the compiler is coded in erlang, which only has bignums, so all calculations are done mod 256 manually, working with negative integers make it a bit more complex)
14:49:00 * pikhq is reminded of interp.tcl in PEBBLE.
14:49:02 <AnMaster> Patashu, that could actually be done! since the polynomial code does handle negative coefficients
14:49:26 <pikhq> Manual modular arithmetic all over the place.
14:49:30 <AnMaster> Patashu, however it would be translated to += 255*p[0] in fact :)
14:49:45 <Patashu> I think ur polynomial is wrong....
14:50:10 <pikhq> proc Modvar {var} {variable memory;variable memmap;set memory($memmap($var)) [expr {$memory($memmap($var))%256}]}
14:50:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I actually do it lazy... After all passes that can merge nodes I have a cleanup pass which goes through and mod 256s all relevant values
14:51:32 <AnMaster> which I admit is rather messy design
14:52:01 <AnMaster> it was the one easiest to implement when I realised "oops, this should have been "rem 256" all over the place.
14:52:13 <AnMaster> new code does the rem 256 though
14:56:27 <AnMaster> <Patashu> p[1] = p[1] + 255*p[0] is equivalent to p[1] = p[1] - 1*p[0] in mod 256 arithmetic
14:56:45 <AnMaster> wouldn't that mean += -p[0] ? is same as += 255*p[0] ?
14:56:46 <Patashu> because between the first and second you always add an integer number of 256s
14:57:09 <AnMaster> Patashu, so that is the answer to <Patashu> why 255 specifically?
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16:36:11 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1442391 <-- funny mess up of mandelbrot.b
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16:47:03 <oerjan> The Font: Small button doesn't seem to be working :(
16:47:30 <oerjan> so i presume i'm seeing it even more messed up than it has to be
16:48:40 <oerjan> huh there was a badly formatted menu of fonts in the upper right corner, and _those_ work
16:49:44 <oerjan> Ooh, it's a pwetty buttewfwy!
16:59:03 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Patashu, but I'm not sure x - y = x + 255y (mod 256)
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16:59:28 <oerjan> modulo arithmetic works across addition, subtraction and multiplication
17:00:45 <oerjan> division and powers are more subtle
17:00:53 <Deewiant> x - y = x - y + 256y = x + 255y (mod 256)
17:06:20 <oerjan> <AnMaster> wait. it will promote to p[1] and p[0] short since 256 isn't in the range of unsigned char
17:06:44 <oerjan> i vaguely thought C converted all chars before doing arithmetic anyway
17:07:31 <oerjan> or wait was this about function arguments...
17:08:28 <oerjan> 06:47:56 <AnMaster> Patashu, well... that is a bit messy, since I don't have -= anywhere in the compiler. I work with all positive values due to implementation language issues (that is: the compiler is coded in erlang, which only has bignums, so all calculations are done mod 256 manually, working with negative integers make it a bit more complex)
17:09:02 <oerjan> does erlang give negative remainders if you do remainder(negative, positive)?
17:09:22 <AnMaster> you mean negative rem positive?
17:10:04 <oerjan> well yes then keeping things positive may simplify things
17:10:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: haskell has both rem and mod, where mod always gives positive for positive divisor
17:10:50 <oerjan> and then you don't need to worry about negative things
17:11:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc the semantics for rem is "whatever the compiler that compiled the VM used". So for Erlang compiled with GCC that means C99 semantics.
17:11:18 <oerjan> haskell is more precise there
17:11:28 <AnMaster> or rahter... for BEAM compiled with GCC.
17:12:12 <AnMaster> (the bit of Erlang written in C, rather than in Erlang)
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17:15:20 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm redesigning expression class. it should canonicalize "(Expr[3] + 4) - Expr[3]" into 4 on-the-fly. :p
17:16:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well I have polynomials working mostly. That is a lot simpler to implement. Just I'm fixing bugs in various other passes and such that were uncovered by adding polynomials...
17:16:56 <lifthrasiir> i wish there were multiset in python... :S
17:17:11 <lifthrasiir> actually, what i needed was "frozen" multiset.
17:17:20 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: set with duplicate elements. for example, {1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3}.
17:17:40 <AnMaster> what I do is basically "convert the 50 first loops we can convert to polynomials. Do a binary search from that. Once found which exact convert caused issues try to figure out why.
17:18:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh? How comes? I use sets in erlang because I only want one of each. Otherwise I would use some other data structure
17:18:31 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, not really. Since I dump original loop and matching polynomial to stdout
17:18:39 <AnMaster> and some other in the middle data
17:18:59 <AnMaster> sometimes it is another pass. Where I can then do a binary search on that.
17:19:27 <AnMaster> anyway iirc erlang has some duplicate_set thingy
17:19:33 <comex> http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/view.phtml/aid/4355
17:19:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, couldn't you implement it for python?
17:20:11 <comex> there's a real module for it
17:20:20 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: a mutable multiset is easy to implement in python, since dict already provides sufficient methods. but what if it has to be immutable?
17:20:35 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, copy it every time?
17:20:45 <AnMaster> instead of making a change to it
17:20:58 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: a multiset is merely a dictionary with integer values...
17:21:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: in python, "immutable" also conveys the meaning of "hashable".
17:21:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you can't hash other objects?
17:21:29 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: yes, but hashable dict can be hard to make.
17:21:37 <comex> store it as a tuple
17:22:47 <comex> and just have the add method maintain sorted order
17:23:01 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's exactly my current method: def __hash__(self): return hash(tuple(self.items())). but i'm not sure it's dependent to implementation.
17:23:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why do you need it hashable btw? Going to store it in a dict?
17:24:02 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: convert the dictionary into hashable list of items; but it depends on the order of items, and i'm not sure it's unique.
17:24:40 <comex> so don't use a dict, use a tuple for storage
17:24:40 <lifthrasiir> for example (a + a + a) == (a * 3), and i store them as same internal format: {a: 3}.
17:24:43 <AnMaster> I generally don't have this problem in Erlang. I can use lists as keys of dicts. I do that when simplifying polynomials
17:24:58 <comex> which is faster anyway, as you don't have to make a new tuple for every hash
17:25:42 <AnMaster> Term = Coefficient * Variables Variables = List of 2-tuples: {Offset,Exponent}
17:25:48 <lifthrasiir> comex: after some thought, i agree to you. it could be simpler using sorted list.
17:26:12 <AnMaster> to merge 2*x + 4*x I use a dict with the list of variables as the key
17:26:17 <lifthrasiir> (but i'm also not sure that tuple manipulation costs less than dict.)
17:26:41 <AnMaster> (since I just merged 2*x*x into 2*x^2 and similar before)
17:27:16 <comex> I don't mean manipulation
17:27:24 <comex> hash(tuple(self.items()))
17:27:42 <comex> is going to make a new list, and then a new tuple out of it
17:27:59 <comex> every time you want a hash
17:29:32 <lifthrasiir> comex: afaik in python __hash__ is called only once per object, but that could be a problem when copying objects.
17:31:06 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: anyway i'm going to remove AdjustMemory ("add" in your code) in favor of SetMemory ("set" in your code). :p
17:31:21 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, how will you handle ,++ or such
17:31:29 <AnMaster> or when you don't know the value before at all
17:32:13 <AnMaster> for some reason THAT one breaks...
17:34:10 <AnMaster> ok it seems to be related to the whole converted loop being:
17:34:14 <AnMaster> [{bfn,add,0,255,undefined,undefined},
17:34:14 <AnMaster> {bfn,set,2,0,undefined,undefined},
17:34:14 <AnMaster> {bfn,add,4,1,undefined,undefined}],
17:34:17 <lifthrasiir> comex: ah, i figured out why i didn't use sorted list. in python 3 cmp doesn't work on different types.
17:34:41 <AnMaster> where that is "{bfn,Opcode,Offset,Value,StuffUsedForLoops,MoreStuffUsedForLoops}"
17:35:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, default value in struct definition for bfn (which stands for bf node)
17:35:39 <AnMaster> the second undefined contains the "body" of loops and ifs and such
17:35:50 <AnMaster> the third is various metadata for loops and polynomials
17:36:10 <AnMaster> contains stuff like what cells are modified by loops and so on
17:37:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and the "bfn" there is just due to using a record. Internally in erlang it ends up as a tagged tuple
17:38:10 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1442460 <-- I fail to see anything wrong there hm
17:38:17 * AnMaster goes to dump it just after that pass
17:38:20 <oerjan> hmph DMM leaves for vacation and the next day the site is broken in several ways...
17:38:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you think it is intentional? I suspect it is some kind of practical joke...
17:39:21 <AnMaster> well not "practical joke". wrong word
17:40:01 <AnMaster> I could live with the font mess up.... but NOT with the broken image link
17:40:21 <oerjan> also a missing part of the navigation bar
17:42:01 <oerjan> what _was_ 2317 again? it worked yesterday but i've forgotten exactly what it was
17:43:26 * oerjan turned on the transcript
17:43:36 <oerjan> i have definitely _not_ seen that before
17:44:11 <comex> 12:34 < lifthrasiir> comex: ah, i figured out why i didn't use sorted list. in python 3 cmp doesn't work on different types.
17:44:22 <oerjan> could i simply have forgotten to visit yesterday? no, because i _did_ read Comments on a Postcard.
17:44:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: something is definitely fishy
17:45:53 <lifthrasiir> anyway sorting [1, (2,), [3]] etc will fail in python 3. that's why i choose not to use sorted list.
17:46:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: there was a different comic there yesterday, i think, although i don't remember what it was. i suppose the update _could_ have failed horribly to overwrite it
17:46:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, wasn't it the one two back
17:46:41 <AnMaster> also yeah, this must be intentional...
17:46:49 <AnMaster> interesting way to irritate users
17:46:52 <oerjan> oh wait you are right, look at the date
17:47:01 <comex> oh, it was deprecated in favor of writing 6 boilerplate methods
17:47:22 <oerjan> oh, 2318 is missing the date
17:47:28 <oerjan> while 2317 has today's
17:51:48 <AnMaster> ok I minimised the broken diff
17:52:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, ok. This MUST be intentional...
17:52:33 <AnMaster> I just don't believe it would be this messed up otherwise
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18:00:04 <oerjan> oh yeah the forum reminded me there was another glitch: "Intriguingly, the previous poll isn't showing when you answer the current one"
18:00:22 <oerjan> and that was there yesterday too
18:01:04 <oerjan> this appears to be approaching astronomical improbability :D
18:01:47 <oerjan> oh no, DMM actually noticed that before he left
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18:18:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, what did he say about that
18:18:20 <oerjan> that it was a simple typo
18:18:27 <oerjan> (that was the poll error)
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18:49:09 <ehird> 00:26 pikhq: ehird: http://imgur.com/B8SqH.png
18:49:09 <ehird> 00:26 pikhq: Had to go cook.
18:50:09 <ehird> 03:05 zzo38: Hay! You told me I didn't need a e-mail address to register
18:50:09 <ehird> 03:05 zzo38: But now it says I do
18:50:11 <ehird> 03:06 zzo38: It also says I need to register and IDENTIFY to post message on ##C channel.
18:50:13 <ehird> 03:06 zzo38: But IDENTIFY is not a valid command and I can
18:50:15 <ehird> 03:06 zzo38: 't register without password/email but I don't want either of those things
18:50:17 <ehird> lol— tough. also IDENTIFY is a nickserv command like register.
18:50:19 <ehird> 03:07 coppro: /join #freenode ← he uses telnet to irc
18:54:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "DuPont Displays Surpasses Million Hour Milestone for Lifetime of New OLED Material" >100 years
18:55:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder how they tested that...
18:55:21 <ehird> 06:36 GregorR-L: I'm now uſing all lengþs. ← imaginary patents.
18:55:46 <ehird> lifthrasiir: pikhq's english shorthand system.
18:56:00 <pikhq> The result of being bored in high school.
18:56:04 <lifthrasiir> at first glance it looked like japanese :|
18:56:09 <ehird> pikhq: what does it say?
18:56:22 <pikhq> "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs."
18:56:46 <ehird> anyhoo since GregorR has all but obsoleted my interp by adding all legngths I won't bother working on it :P
18:57:00 <ehird> pikhq: how does it work?
18:57:01 <pikhq> And managed not to include all of my symbols, courtesy of diactrics. :p
18:57:09 <Asztal> it also pushed my program to the bottom >:(
18:57:20 <ehird> AnMaster: adding polarity is a ~3 minute job
18:57:31 <Deewiant> ehird, AnMaster: And was also done.
18:58:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is because you took too long for him ;P
18:58:11 <Deewiant> I noticed the lack of vowels; inferred only from context?
18:58:24 <ehird> 18:57 pikhq: ehird: Abjad.
18:58:25 <ehird> 18:57 pikhq: n vwls.
18:59:19 <pikhq> Aside from that, it's just the Roman alphabet, simplified into 1 stroke per character.
18:59:59 <Deewiant> What do t and h look like in isolation
19:00:19 <pikhq> Deewiant: T looks like the first character without the ` over it.
19:00:55 <pikhq> h looks like... Hmm. Actually, it looks closest to 'þ' written backwards.
19:01:00 <ehird> AnMaster: So, looks like I'll be buying my display from DuPont. Maybe.
19:01:24 <ehird> I won't get this fancy long-lived one, just a regular OLED display.
19:01:27 <pikhq> No, only when with another letter. "gh", "th", "ph", etc.
19:01:55 <pikhq> It's amusing that it looks like kana, since I didn't learn kana until a bit *after* that.
19:02:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Either 163.92 or 136.6.
19:02:10 <ehird> Either way, ridonkulously high.
19:02:30 <ehird> 1280x1024 at 10" and 12", respectively.
19:02:41 <pikhq> (I write a ' to indicate a starting vowel, makes it a bit easier to read)
19:02:51 <ehird> With DPI set accordingly in the OS, of course; that high resolution's just for extra smoothness and for media.
19:02:54 <Asztal> `sztl would work on IRC, I suppose
19:03:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, He fails at faking nick change for all clients expect possibly xchat.
19:03:17 <ehird> AnMaster: since it's impossible to do it for all clients, who carse?
19:03:33 <ehird> who cares if he fails faking it
19:04:02 <AnMaster> I don't care a lot about it. Just for informative purposes.
19:04:15 <Asztal> if I could get a -!- there, I'd do that, but I don't really know what the other clients do
19:04:27 <ehird> ubuntu/gnome are really good for high-dpi displays
19:04:31 <ehird> everything just works if you set the dpi
19:05:16 <ehird> Huge advantage of high DPI displays: Subpixel rendering + no hinting — without any blurriness whatsoever.
19:05:25 <ehird> Although you get that at about 100dpi.
19:05:50 <Deewiant> Your "huge advantage" is my "can't tell the difference"
19:06:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: You're blind.
19:06:17 <ehird> Why don't you go and buy a braille screen, I'm sure you'll be just fine
19:06:24 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:06:26 <ehird> not having fully-functioning eyes and all
19:06:48 <Deewiant> For this particular case I note that I actually haven't had a chance to compare
19:06:55 <Deewiant> But I suspect it'd be like that.
19:06:58 <ehird> Then your statement is very silly :P
19:07:07 <Deewiant> It applies to most of your monitor hype :-P
19:07:24 <ehird> you mean... i like good displays?
19:07:27 <ehird> i dont' recall hyping anything
19:07:50 <Deewiant> "to create interest in by flamboyant or dramatic methods"
19:08:38 <ehird> saying that 1280x1024 is way too small = dramatic?
19:09:07 <pikhq> 1280x1024 is kinda small unless you're talking TV set.
19:09:16 <ehird> pikhq: Deewiant said it was "just fine"
19:09:19 <pikhq> And even then... Go for full 1920x1080?
19:09:33 <ehird> yeah, it's not as if Full HD screens even cost a lot
19:09:36 <pikhq> ehird: Sure. In 1996.
19:09:50 <ehird> you can get a 23" LCD TV w/ real 1080p for ~£200
19:09:54 <Deewiant> ehird: Responding with "hahahahahaha" when I say it isn't is flamboyant :-P
19:09:59 <ehird> and most tvs cost about that much
19:10:11 <ehird> Deewiant: 512k is enough for anything
19:10:33 <pikhq> ehird: Eh, there's cheaper TV sets. Granted, those are at best EDTV these days...
19:11:00 <ehird> [[It would be better for the "Donky" of the U.S. Democratic Party to lick the carrot.]] —North Korea
19:11:01 <Deewiant> ehird: That style of response is flamboyant regardless of the statement.
19:11:15 <ehird> Deewiant: do we agree on the definition of flamboyant here?
19:11:16 <Deewiant> Aside: you guys have pretty damn cheap TVs.
19:11:39 <pikhq> Deewiant: TVs are cheap.
19:11:47 <ehird> Deewiant: not really the colloquial meaning
19:11:51 <ehird> pikhq: Tech is expensive in finland
19:12:00 <Deewiant> pikhq: I got a 19" TV for 199€, the next-cheapest one would have been around 299€.
19:12:15 <pikhq> Jebus. 19" for 199€?
19:12:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: Cheapest TV I could find.
19:12:39 <ehird> They're just badly-tuned monitors
19:12:51 <pikhq> I could just about get a 19" monitor, computer and *tuner card* for that.
19:13:30 <Deewiant> Tuner cards appear to be around 90-120 € here.
19:13:33 <pikhq> Oh. 199€ is according to Google $281.
19:13:43 <pikhq> Just about? Yes, I *definitely* could.
19:14:02 <Deewiant> That 23" with 1080p for £199 is ass-cheap.
19:14:06 <pikhq> I can pick up a DTV tuner for $20-$50....
19:14:34 <pikhq> If I skrimped, I could get a computer for another $150...
19:14:41 <Deewiant> pikhq: 19" monitors are upwards of 100 €.
19:14:45 <pikhq> Maybe even $100 if I didn't bother with CPU at all.
19:15:09 -!- jix has joined.
19:15:09 <Deewiant> And a computer on top of that will be more than the -20 to 10 € remaining. ;-)
19:15:15 <pikhq> ("CPU? Who needs that if it's just going to tune?")
19:16:04 <ehird> 19:14 Deewiant: That 23" with 1080p for £199 is ass-cheap.
19:16:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, we have pretty good pricse.
19:16:24 <pikhq> So, yes. It would be cheaper for me to build a barebones DVR setup than it would be for you to buy a TV set.
19:16:28 <pikhq> That's a bit crazy.
19:16:42 <ehird> But seriously, televisions are obsolete.
19:16:46 <Deewiant> I've become accustomed to it. :-P
19:17:01 <Deewiant> Nothing wrong with buying an obsolete device every now and then
19:17:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Here's the ass cheap TV: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/153223
19:17:15 <ehird> Deewiant: = 263.38 eur
19:17:33 <pikhq> ehird: DVR setup FTW. If you really *must* watch TV, at least you can skip the commercials.
19:17:52 <ehird> pikhq: Why even bother? Everything apart from the news is downloadable, and the news can be streamed for free online.
19:17:57 <ehird> (... assuming BBC, of course.)
19:18:02 <bsmntbombdood> for a monitor, is is 1920*1200, 22", or 19200*1200, 24" better?
19:18:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the 19200. it has ten times the height
19:18:20 <Deewiant> ehird: About the same price here, actually. I'd've expected at least 290.
19:18:21 <ehird> bit of a skewed aspect ratio though ;)
19:18:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: But, depends what you want. 22" packs the same stuff into more detail, due to packing the pixels closer.
19:18:45 <pikhq> ehird: You're not very likely to find 10 Mbit/s MPEG2 streams from the net. :p
19:18:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 24" is about 96dpi, which is what most images, etc on the interweb assume.
19:18:47 <Deewiant> ehird: But then, £30 on top does make it less ass-cheap. :-P
19:18:54 <ehird> And also, the default settings and such assume it, generally.
19:19:00 <ehird> So it'll work OOTB more smoothly.
19:19:06 <pikhq> ... Granted, if you've got cable, you're not even getting that.
19:19:18 <ehird> pikhq: Ultra-high quality is mandatory for breaking news, clearly.
19:19:32 <ehird> Deewiant: I have £30 a few meters away from me, want it? :P
19:19:36 <Deewiant> In this case, I just wanted something cheap with component inputs.
19:19:41 <ehird> (well, okay, so I don't have £30 lying everywhere.)
19:19:43 <ehird> (would be nice tho.)
19:20:02 <ehird> Deewiant: OK, that'll be £20 shipping, £11 handling charge
19:20:09 <pikhq> ehird: You're discussing the US. We think that making it possible for people to *download* shows they want to watch is EBIL!!!
19:20:39 <ehird> pikhq: I believe you can stream bbc news internationally
19:20:58 <pikhq> ehird: And what if you want to watch something other than BBC news?
19:21:08 <pikhq> So we'd rather use several hundred Mbit/s streaming it over the air. And over satellites. And over cables.
19:21:13 <ehird> "The BBC News channel is available in the UK only. Don't forget, to watch TV online as it's being broadcast, you still need a TV License."
19:21:24 <ehird> pikhq: If you want something else, it's probably not live, so download the series. In HD>
19:21:41 <pikhq> Thus my rant about the US.
19:21:54 <ehird> Jaywalking isn't legal either :P
19:22:00 <pikhq> And diverging into a rant about us not using multicast.
19:22:21 <ehird> TV/Radio have one architectural advantage:
19:22:28 <ehird> Broadcast scales way better than streaming.
19:22:37 <ehird> Because it doesn't have to do anything at all :P
19:22:43 <pikhq> Thus why I said multicast.
19:23:17 <pikhq> With multicast, the streamer just sends out a single stream. The routers make sure the stream gets to everyone. ;)
19:23:18 <ehird> [[For anyone who isn't familiar with the name "Prometeia," it is special device that chills an Intel or AMD processor down to an operating temperature of between -20°C to -30°C, with the end goal being better overclocking.]]
19:23:30 <ehird> Overclockers never stop surprising me with what they will buy.
19:23:49 <ehird> It's a fridge for your CPU.
19:24:08 <Deewiant> It's also nearly 10 years old :-P
19:24:13 <pikhq> I've seen some overclocker that said "Screw that, that's just stupid".
19:24:25 <pikhq> And bought a minifridge and made that into a computer case.
19:24:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I bet it can only cool an i7 @ 4ghz to -5 under load.
19:24:39 <ehird> If there's one thing overclockers are, it's DIY.
19:25:01 <ehird> On the subject of crazy cooling systems...
19:25:26 <ehird> http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg Combined pump, reservoir and... space heater.
19:25:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: never said it wasn't
19:25:49 <ehird> i'm considering it for my new build
19:26:00 <ehird> one can only dissipate ~200W of heat continually
19:26:15 <ehird> probably drill a hole in the wall, and mount it on the rarely-used stairs, though
19:26:23 <ehird> don't want to be near two of them under load
19:26:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i could just buy an industrial radiator that can dissipate 200w
19:26:42 <ehird> and hook it up to the reserator
19:26:46 <ehird> that'd be less fuss than DIYing it
19:27:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the pump is a bit wimpy, though
19:27:12 <ehird> 5 watts, 30litre/hour
19:27:23 <ehird> otoh, anything more would be non-inaudible
19:27:36 <ehird> two of them is probably quieter than replacing the pump with something louder/more powerful
19:27:49 <ehird> but if I'm mounting this on the stairs it doesn't really matter :)
19:28:14 <ehird> FireFly: shush you :)
19:28:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the reserator is ~8.5kg when filled
19:28:26 <bsmntbombdood> get a large sheet of copper, solder copper pipe on to it in a purdy design
19:28:39 <ehird> 6kg base rate + 2.5 litres of cooler
19:28:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: not on this wall, kthx
19:28:53 <ehird> the i7 and a gtx graphics card are gonna produce a lot of heat
19:29:02 <ehird> 25C-30C is hot enough for me as it is
19:29:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'm going to mount it on the other wall
19:29:21 <ehird> to the side of my monitor and further forward is a wall
19:29:25 <bsmntbombdood> it's not like you've got more heat than fan cooling
19:29:34 <ehird> beyond that wall, is air above rarely-used stairs
19:29:45 <ehird> step 1. drill three holes
19:29:54 <ehird> in, out tubes, and power lead
19:30:01 <ehird> step 2. get brackets, mount on stair wall
19:30:04 <ehird> step 3. connect it up
19:30:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but air heating just goes out the exhaust vent
19:30:14 <FireFly> And no-one in your house complains?
19:30:28 <ehird> it doesn't sit there 2ft high pumping out heat
19:30:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the exhaust vent on my floor, facing the wall, you mean
19:30:56 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:31:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, the stairs are colder.
19:31:07 <ehird> also, this is cooler. ;)
19:31:18 <ehird> FireFly: weell, that may be a slight issue
19:31:26 <ehird> FireFly: but, the stairs are used like once every few months
19:31:33 <bsmntbombdood> anyway, if it's on the other side of a wall, you can use a cheaper, active radiator
19:31:34 <ehird> and it'd be too high to bash anyone
19:31:37 <ehird> FireFly: also, cool as in awesome.
19:31:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the stairs are a great amplifier
19:31:51 <ehird> I can hear anything that goes on in there
19:32:09 <ehird> also, fans have significantly less cool factor
19:32:10 <FireFly> You should have your speakers there :D
19:32:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah but if I go down that route my whole computer ends up in the basement (a basement which this flat does not have)
19:32:44 <ehird> and that's so much less fun than making it silent
19:32:51 <bsmntbombdood> i've already got a hole drilled in my floor down to the crawlspace :D
19:32:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: one of the less practical ideas I had while thinking about this,
19:33:02 <ehird> (note that I'm one storey up in a flat)
19:33:08 -!- tombom has joined.
19:33:09 <ehird> mount it on the outside wall
19:33:12 <ehird> put in protective box
19:33:14 <ehird> drill holes through wall
19:33:16 <FireFly> bsmntbombdood, that's my idea
19:33:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i could overclock in the winter only
19:33:45 <jix> !bfjoust suicide <
19:33:47 <ehird> there's a word for that idea, though, actually two of them. impractical; expensive :-D
19:33:51 <EgoBot> Score for jix_suicide: 0.0
19:33:57 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: get a window-mounted air conditioner, and hook up a heat exchanger to the cold side
19:34:17 <jix> FireFly: nope
19:34:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe
19:34:26 <jix> FireFly: leaving the arena makes one lose
19:34:27 <Asztal> !bfjoust true_suicide ]
19:34:30 <ehird> the reserator is pretty though
19:34:39 <EgoBot> Score for Asztal_true_suicide: 4.6
19:34:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm almost totally set on a passive-radiator watercooling system, though
19:34:56 <ehird> although then the coil whine from the GTX 260 up becomes an issue
19:35:00 <FireFly> I thought one could still win if the opponent suicided afterwards (by clearing its own flag)
19:35:11 <tombom> !bfjoust suicide fake_suicide
19:35:15 <jix> FireFly: that's only if your program ends
19:35:17 <Asztal> heh, well, a syntax error loses to a <, AFAIK.
19:35:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that was 'cuz I could passively cool a 9800gtx+
19:35:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: with watercooling, all those issues just - ehm - drip away
19:35:48 <ehird> step 1, get a decent radiator, step 2, put all the components you want in the loop
19:35:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah
19:35:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: some of the coil things on the card make a whining noise
19:36:01 <ehird> apparently only for the first few months
19:36:05 <ehird> depending on who you ask
19:36:16 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_fake_suicide: 7.7
19:36:17 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod
19:36:17 <EgoBot> Score for tombom_suicide: 0.0
19:36:17 <EgoBot> Score for tombom_suicide: 0.0
19:36:54 <FireFly> Egobot, was that the one with lots of bf based commands?
19:37:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that's mah plan
19:37:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: maybe even two, in SLI.
19:37:13 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
19:37:15 <ehird> depending on how excessive and moneybags I feel
19:37:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: GTX 260 and up
19:37:43 <ehird> all the GTXs suffer from it
19:37:52 <ehird> Deewiant: since you're the person who showed me that ssd article— do you think using an using intel ssd for an os drive, and then a stuttery-but-good-sequential-throughput SSD for a data might work well? i don't see why that wouldn't work
19:38:25 <Deewiant> If most of your data usage is sequential then sure, I guess
19:38:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: after all this, all I need is an anechoic chamber to enjoy it in
19:38:49 <bsmntbombdood> and why not put the computer on the other side of the wall?
19:39:25 <ehird> a bit less (few hundred) than $4,000 for the aircooled version ($4k was from endpcnoise.com preassembled; the rig i was going to build had some changes but would prolly come out cheaper due to no system integrator cost)
19:39:39 <ehird> so, remove costs for quiet case, heatsinks, fans etc and add watercooling costs...
19:39:47 <ehird> otoh, I found some ways to cut the costs down
19:39:52 <ehird> it's all very much in flux
19:39:56 <ehird> priority one, performance and silence
19:40:01 <ehird> priority two, money i can actually afford
19:40:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, I'm not going to
19:40:17 <ehird> i'm doing it iteratively
19:40:28 <ehird> make awesome computer, make affordable. if awesomeness is compromised, go back to step 1
19:40:33 <ehird> repeat until both criteria are fulfilled
19:40:51 <bsmntbombdood> gtx 295 - $500, i7 extreme, $1000, 4 x25-ms, $1200
19:41:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: watercooling costs a lot
19:41:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 12gb of expensive ddr3 is more like $1000
19:41:38 <pikhq> Not if you do it the 8G stick way.
19:41:47 <ehird> pikhq: then it's $984758934579832478293784572893467834589347238947
19:41:51 <ehird> because you can't get 8g sticks
19:42:13 <ehird> pikhq: oh it wouldn't cost -that- much to get them invented and made ;)
19:42:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $3100 for cpu, gfx card, ram and 160gb x25-m
19:42:54 <pikhq> That includes the cost of bribing the controllers of the market to allow them to be on the market.
19:43:02 <ehird> add water cooling costs, case etc and you get a bit over $4000
19:43:29 <ehird> conclusion: hardware is cheap. relatively.
19:44:07 <ehird> interwebs are being slow
19:44:19 <ehird> one thing that is totally stupid is any watercooling rig that isn't passive
19:44:23 <ehird> total waste of money
19:44:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: pfft, SATA?
19:44:59 <ehird> [[What's more, even Intel's fastest X25-E flash drive is limited to 250MB/s reads and 170MB/s writes]]
19:45:05 <ehird> FOCUS ON RANDOM PERFORMANCE FOR AN OS DRIE
19:45:07 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
19:45:16 <bsmntbombdood> so, it'll be 1000 times better to get a motherboard that can support that
19:45:32 <bsmntbombdood> because the processor's fastest and lowest latency connection to _anything_ is its ram
19:45:43 <ehird> i wonder what nice watercooled psus you can get
19:45:51 <ehird> probably not anything under 2345897234897238942389429347234 kilowatts
19:45:57 <ehird> because all watercoolers are excessive amirite
19:46:18 * pikhq wants a computer with battery backed RAM. Making a RAM disk feasible.
19:46:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sata=3gb/s
19:46:43 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: 6 gb/s soon.
19:46:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well yeah
19:47:16 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: it's very easy to do with a good operating system
19:47:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: can the dual 1366 server mobos take two i7s?
19:47:44 <ehird> i seem to recall that they only fit xeons or sth
19:47:54 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Battery backed RAM".
19:48:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you can have two xeons, why not two i7s
19:48:11 <pikhq> I didn't know an OS could magically make your RAM battery backed.
19:48:31 <bsmntbombdood> ups tells computer when to start backing up ramdisk
19:48:47 <ehird> fuck battery backed ramdisks
19:48:51 <ehird> ssd backed ramdisks, yes.
19:48:58 <pikhq> Sure, if you never shut your system down.
19:49:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you know?
19:49:31 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: so it takes 2 minutes to shut down, big deal
19:49:54 <ehird> kinda lame but i don't need more than 4 cores
19:50:14 <ehird> doubt the performance advantage from 8 is really noticeable apart from in things specifically optimized for it
19:50:20 <ehird> if I wanna get mega parallel i'll talk to my gpu
19:50:52 <ehird> [[Busting the ANS-9010 open reveals eight 240-pin DDR2 DIMM slots]]
19:50:52 <pikhq> ehird: Like compile jobs, encode jobs, etc. :p
19:50:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it isn't even fucking ddr3 :)
19:51:22 <ehird> pikhq: -j6 vs -j12 isn't going to make much difference unless your project is basically dependency-free
19:51:32 <ehird> pikhq: encode jobs can be done on the gpu
19:51:38 <ehird> and there are products doing that in development
19:51:53 <ehird> pikhq: can mencoder do that?
19:52:14 <pikhq> mencoder can do encodes in parallel. I don't think it can do encodes on the GPU, though.
19:52:29 <pikhq> *Decodes*, sure, but not encodes.
19:52:57 <ehird> Well, that's its problem
19:52:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dunno
19:53:07 <ehird> i've seen figures using gpu encoders to mpeg4 and the like
19:53:17 <ehird> 5x faster than a multicore cpu or so
19:53:20 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: All modern GPUs are TC.
19:53:27 <ehird> pikhq: he knows _that
19:53:30 <pikhq> And have builtin decoding hardware besides.
19:53:30 <ehird> but specialization = moar speed
19:54:00 <ehird> but yeah, gfx card of radeon 4850 or above caliber vs high-end gigahertzy 4-core cpu
19:54:06 <ehird> gfx cards kicks the cpu's ass at encoding video.
19:54:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: oh my god
19:54:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: their test system for that ddr drive
19:54:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: [[Processor Pentium 4 Extreme Edition 3.4GHz]]
19:54:30 <pikhq> If you've got an encoder for said graphics card, yes.
19:54:33 <ehird> TIME MACHINE TIEM MACHINE
19:54:50 <ehird> [[Memory size1GB (2 DIMMs)]]
19:55:00 <ehird> [[Graphics Radeon X700 Pro 256MB with CATALYST 5.7 drivers]]
19:55:04 <ehird> oh this shit is just piling up the power
19:55:12 <ehird> catalyst is up to 9.something :D
19:55:20 <pikhq> I've got a system better than that. And it's low-end 3 year old hardware.
19:55:21 <ehird> wow, xp service pack 2!
19:55:28 <ehird> yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
19:55:32 <ehird> The test systems' Windows desktop was set at 1280x1024 in 32-bit color at an 85Hz screen refresh rate. Vertical refresh sync (vsync) was disabled for all tests.
19:56:21 <pikhq> I've got a lower refresh, but that's because my LCD's somewhat cheap.
19:56:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://techreport.com/r.x/acard-ans9010/worldbench-overall.gif
19:56:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: RAID-0ing two of those ramdisks?
19:56:38 <pikhq> But man. I outspecced their test system 3 years ago.
19:56:42 <ehird> only 8 points better than a x25-m
19:56:44 <pikhq> And I was buying *old hardware*.
19:57:00 <ehird> 160gb for cheaper than 16gb and the same performance hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
19:57:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i kno
19:57:04 <ehird> it's just so silly
19:57:07 <ehird> pikhq: they're prolly using a crt
19:59:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: oh lawd
19:59:11 * ehird closes article, too retarded
19:59:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, I'm not sure I should get a 295
19:59:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's two gpus
19:59:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it is probably more effective to use two of the best single nvidia gpus
19:59:55 <ehird> "Now the GTX 295 is a bit of a weird combo. See, it has the memory volume and frequency of two GTX 260 cards yet the raw shader processor horsepower of two GeForce GTX 280 cards. "
19:59:59 <ehird> gets more memory power too
20:00:07 <ehird> 280 is discontinued though
20:00:18 <ehird> 2x275 is at least as good as a 295
20:00:22 <ehird> and more effective for cooling etc
20:00:40 <bsmntbombdood> the sad thing is, with a one line command, i can have a ramdisk half the size of theirs that is much cheaper and a zillion times faster
20:01:40 <pikhq> /dev/shm seems to exist without me trying.
20:01:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ooh, there's a better single gpu than the 275
20:02:00 <ehird> 2x285 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 295
20:02:04 <ehird> probably comparable power usage too
20:02:31 <ehird> DISADVANTAGE OF WATER COOLING: First it drains your pocket, then it allows you to drain your pocket.
20:02:46 <ehird> Then your pocket shrivels and dies.
20:03:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: on the 295: "you can rest assured that when these two GPU's are fully utilized the card can peak towards 289 watts power consumption"
20:04:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: if I get 2x285, you have to buy me crysis, okay?
20:05:02 <ehird> otherwise that's just a waste ;)
20:05:51 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: mount -t tmpfs -o size=8G tmpfs /mnt/faster-than-you
20:06:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 8G is a bit big if you only have 12G of ram
20:06:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well sure but then you're left with only 4
20:06:49 <ehird> i'd recommend a 4G ramdisk
20:06:53 <ehird> so you have 8G left
20:06:57 <Deewiant> Only 4G of RAM! Whatever shall you do with so little
20:07:00 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Fair enough.
20:07:47 <bsmntbombdood> but if you are backing it up it might be easier to use a ram device
20:08:47 <bsmntbombdood> what's the differences between the buffers and cached line anyway?
20:09:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: kernel reserves a fuckton of memory for usage later
20:09:36 <ehird> buffers/cache line subtracts that from the usage
20:09:44 <ehird> so you can know what's actually being used
20:10:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wait whut?
20:12:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yep, 285 SLI kicks the shit out of a 295
20:12:37 <ehird> http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3501&p=2 start of benchmarks
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20:12:45 <ehird> even on ATI-lovin' games
20:13:00 <ehird> same as a 280 sli on that though
20:13:22 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/gtx285launch_011509005146/18001.png
20:13:28 <ehird> 95 FPS at 2560x1600 4xaa.
20:13:34 <ehird> That's slightly ridiculous.
20:13:40 <ehird> *scrolls to crysis*
20:14:04 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/gtx285launch_011509005146/17996.png
20:14:09 <ehird> that's just ridiculous
20:14:20 <ehird> ... although how come the gtx 280 beats the 285?
20:14:31 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm talking about the sli configuraitons
20:14:43 <Deewiant> ehird: The difference is so small I'd chalk it up to error
20:15:00 <ehird> Deewiant: ps your card only gets 18fps haha looooser
20:15:09 <bsmntbombdood> i'm not seeing an i7 motherboard that supports more than 24 gb of ram
20:15:14 <Deewiant> Like there's a difference between 22 and 18 :-P
20:15:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm not seeing a consumer use-case that requires more than 24 gb of ram
20:15:58 <Deewiant> I'm not seeing a consumer use-case that requires more than 4 GB of RAM
20:16:00 <GregorR-L> ehird: Then you haven't seen the latest line of games!
20:16:11 <ehird> Deewiant: it's ok to be a little excessive
20:16:20 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: oh, and that stupid sata ramdisk does have a battery good for about 4 hrs
20:16:26 <GregorR-L> RAMSuckerShootShootShoot alone requires 16GB
20:16:40 <ehird> GregorR-L: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:16:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: does it require a quad-SLI of gtx 295s too?
20:17:02 <ehird> maybe a render farm on the side
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20:18:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
20:18:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Heh.
20:18:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: lame
20:18:32 <ehird> quad-SLI of gtx 285s, then
20:18:46 <Asztal> but the Asus Mars can be quad SLI'd.
20:18:58 <ehird> "The GeForce GTX 295 comes with a 289 watt TDP (peak wattage). Since your motherboard can only deliver 75 watts, you'll need to hook it up to a PSU"
20:19:03 <ehird> Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally?!!?!?!?237836248761238123
20:19:22 <ehird> Asztal: ah, it's two gtx 285s?
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20:20:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Most new GPUs these days need to be hooked up to a PSU.
20:20:52 <ehird> Deewiant: thus my sarcasm
20:21:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what we need is thin clients + 5 billion lines of fiber-optics to communicate w/ the thick servers
20:21:12 <ehird> cooling vs silence: SOLVED.
20:22:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah i could totally not hear a 4x asus mars sli + 2x nehalem xeons @ 4ghz + 2x 1200watt psu in another room
20:22:33 <ehird> everyone knows that walls block all noise entirely
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20:22:59 <GregorR-L> This picture rated X for violence.
20:23:11 <ehird> this picture rated x for xtrem
20:24:21 <ehird> this picture rated p for people having intercourse
20:26:30 <ehird> this is what 137dpi looks like:
20:26:37 <ehird> http://imggur.com/RAORj.png
20:26:40 <ehird> http://imgur.com/RAORj.png
20:27:12 <ehird> that's what 164 dpi looks like
20:27:16 <ehird> Resize picture-viewing window to be 10" :P
20:29:35 <ehird> if you have a 96dpi monitor,
20:29:48 <ehird> 750x600 is the right size
20:30:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: See my note about resizing.
20:31:14 <GregorR-L> That had nothing to do with any of that, I was just poking your eyes out so you can see what 0 dpi looks like.
20:31:26 <ehird> Very clever. Har har.
20:32:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Wut?
20:32:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and yeah
20:32:30 <ehird> but the fans needed to cool that shit = huge
20:34:13 <ehird> GRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
20:35:20 <pikhq> Þis picture rated Þ for gratuitous uſe of þorn.
20:35:31 <ehird> gratuitous amounts of pornography
20:37:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: new cooling system
20:37:35 <GregorR-L> Dear me, I say, the pornography in this picture would have been acceptable 10 minutes ago, but now it's just gratuitous.
20:37:42 <ehird> your system goes in a thin box
20:37:44 <ehird> and is moved to finland
20:37:49 <ehird> cables are connected to it underwater
20:38:00 <ehird> or perhaps antarctica
20:38:04 <ehird> latency's lower from finland
20:38:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: However, it is alſo gratis. Surely þat's important‽
20:38:56 <ehird> one day I'm going to start talking in real, bona-fide olde english
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20:39:02 <ehird> and you're all going to be FUCKED
20:39:15 -!- inurinternet has joined.
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20:39:40 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
20:39:53 <GregorR-L> It'll be difficult for you to say "esoteric programming language" in "bona-fide" Old English.
20:40:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: esoterice language of the magicke movinge stones
20:42:32 <ehird> Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum, þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon, hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
20:42:44 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, Adding polynoms both made the generated code better and worse at the same time... Trying to fix back the cases where it is now worse
20:43:05 <AnMaster> mostly due to other optimisation passes knowing more tricks for the old nodes...
20:44:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i am jealous of you. you and your noise-carelessness.
20:44:52 <ehird> if only I could be that desensitive :P
20:45:29 <ehird> wait, the reserator pushes 300l/hr not 30l/hr :-D
20:45:49 <AnMaster> <ehird> Hwaet! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum, theod-cyninga, thrym gefrunon, hu ða aethelingas ellen fremedon. <-- care to translate
20:46:14 <ehird> AnMaster: "Listen! We have heard of the glory of the Spear-Danes, of the kings of the people, in days of yore, [and] how those princes did deeds of glory."
20:46:27 <ehird> From Beowulf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language#Beowulf
20:46:40 <AnMaster> I'm clearly going to have to ask for translation a lot from now on...
20:47:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a good one? Uh, 0dB.
20:47:27 <ehird> Probably bad ones too.
20:47:32 <ehird> It's pumps that make noise.
20:47:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I mean, it does nothing.
20:47:58 <ehird> It doesn't push anything, it just is.
20:48:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Yes, that's what I'm going to do
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20:48:13 <ehird> By mounting it on the wall of the stairs
20:48:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://imgur.com/RAORj.png <--- the image metadata says it is 72 dpi...
20:48:22 <ehird> AnMaster: That's irrelevant; what dpi is your display?
20:48:31 <ehird> I'll tell you the appropriate resolution
20:48:36 <AnMaster> ehird, 86 iirc. 80-something anyway
20:48:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm using gimps "not pixel for pixel" mode
20:49:04 <AnMaster> so if metadata was correct it would show as right size
20:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600.
20:49:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600. <-- doing it that way is broken :P
20:49:34 <ehird> And it'll look right (modulo blurriness due to your monitor's dpi being lower than what the image was designed for)
20:49:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Blame ubuntu's screenshot too
20:50:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Set gimp to a-pixel-is-a-pixel, then resize it to 671x600. <-- that doesn't keep the aspect ratio.
20:50:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Just do it, I know it'll work :P
20:50:36 <ehird> I worked it out and everything
20:50:48 <ehird> I think I got it the wrong way around
20:51:07 <ehird> AnMaster: 671.54 pixels TIMES something.
20:51:19 <ehird> AnMaster: For a more clarcut one, make it 600 second-dimension.
20:51:24 <ehird> And let it choose the first dimension.
20:51:32 <ehird> For perfect results, get out a ruler :P
20:51:44 <AnMaster> ehird, for perfect results use correct metadata :P
20:52:06 <ehird> Get it to as close as that as it'll be happy with
20:52:18 <ehird> 20:50 AnMaster: for 671 gimp suggests 537
20:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what I said -_-
20:52:40 <ehird> AnMaster: With linear interpolation
20:52:50 <ehird> Does best for scaling down text and stuff.
20:53:02 <ehird> Although at such a low dpi I'm not sure you could notice :P
20:53:51 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a very small screen!
20:54:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Measure its diagonal size
20:54:12 <ehird> And yeah, 10" is small. Netbook-size.
20:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: But it'd be a lot better on the actual thing.
20:54:40 <ehird> It's for a laptop; you have it a lot closer.
20:54:44 <ehird> It's high-dpi, so it's sharper.
20:54:46 <AnMaster> ehird, are you still getting that speed monster too
20:54:52 <ehird> AnMaster: That's the main priority
20:55:03 <ehird> The netbook requires a sufficiently high DPI OLED display; so come back in a year or something
20:55:17 <ehird> AnMaster: The speed monster is what I'm watercooling w/ that gigantic passive radiator.
20:56:13 <AnMaster> ehird, the pump will still be noisy
20:56:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The 5 watt pump in the Reserator is inaudible.
20:56:37 <ehird> Even moreso if you add a drop of washing up liquid (seriously)
20:56:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, I'm mounting it on the wall of another room.
20:56:51 <ehird> (The stairs opposite this room.)
20:58:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw, the same basic idea as watercooling is used in heatpipe heatsinks
20:58:15 <ehird> zalman totally no noise is basically watercooling sans the water
20:58:20 <ehird> with the case as the radiator
20:59:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: howso
21:00:07 <ehird> also bsmntbombdood uh no
21:00:09 <ehird> that's a loop heat pipe
21:00:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: regular heat pipes are single-phase
21:02:17 <ehird> wikipedia said it therefore it is true.
21:02:39 <ehird> wait, that was talking about another thing
21:02:45 <ehird> even so, heatpipes != phase
21:05:54 <ehird> i wonder how many watercooled psus there are
21:06:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well you just need a fanless psu
21:07:02 <ehird> and put a waterblock on it
21:07:19 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=665
21:07:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: that one's submerged
21:07:39 <ehird> i hate submersion :)
21:07:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, why bad idea
21:07:56 <ehird> it's just like cooling a hot cpu
21:08:26 <ehird> there are psus designed to run fanlessly
21:08:37 <ehird> putting a waterblock on them would run fine
21:10:18 <ehird> Silverstone's max fanless psu is 450w
21:10:30 <ehird> lame as a lame thing
21:11:10 * ehird looks around some more
21:11:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dunno, just don't like it
21:11:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, that psu has way too high wwattage
21:12:12 <ehird> doesn't even look to be 80% efficient
21:13:39 * ehird calculates power usage for his rig-o-matic
21:15:18 <ehird> 344watt @ 85% cpu tdp, 90% load, 0 capacitor aging
21:15:33 <ehird> w/ 100% tdp, 100% load 402w
21:15:53 <ehird> that but w/ 20% capacitor aging = 482w
21:16:20 <ehird> if we say gtx 295 instead of 285, and same settings as last, 566w
21:16:29 <ehird> so i only need 500w
21:17:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so 1700w is amazingly wasteful&excessive.
21:17:14 <ehird> for, well... anything.
21:23:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 'pparently with a zalman reserator you still need one low-rpm case fan
21:23:33 <ehird> i don't see why though
21:23:41 <ehird> as long as you put absolutely everything that makes any heat into the loop
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21:26:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: any idea why?
21:36:40 <bsmntbombdood> you can't put everything that makes heat in the loop
21:36:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why not
21:36:52 <bsmntbombdood> or you end up like this: <please hold while i google>
21:36:55 <ehird> northbridge, ram, gpu, ...
21:36:59 <ehird> perfectly possible.
21:38:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: your google is slow
21:38:59 <ehird> you should grease it
21:40:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what was it?
21:40:26 <bsmntbombdood> a setup where he put a waterblock on every single heat producing component
21:41:06 <bsmntbombdood> http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=744914
21:41:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well i don't mean everything that produces heat
21:41:45 <ehird> everything that produces heat that would actually need a heatsink or airflow of any kind
21:41:58 <ehird> i really don't see why you'd need a case fan
21:42:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: northbridge, gpu, gpu ram, cpu, ram, psu
21:42:49 <ehird> and you've covered most everything
21:43:08 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: southbridge too, and the power circuitry for the cpu
21:43:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do those make enough heat to need any sort of cooling?
21:43:26 <ehird> i'd imagine the heat would just waft off
21:43:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: leave that on, then
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21:43:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: put a waterblock on, then
21:44:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: btw.
21:44:07 <ehird> yes they need airflow
21:44:13 <ehird> but your case almost certainly has some holes in it
21:44:23 <ehird> i highly doubt it needs more than a trickle of air moving about aimlessly
21:44:40 <ehird> yes. they're quiet. but if you're gonna get a fan, you might as well aircool
21:45:07 <ehird> 1 psu fan, 1 cpu fan, 1 gfx card fan, 1 intake, 1 exhaust = 5 fans; if you get really good 120mm fans, barely more audible than 2 fans
21:45:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.overclockers.com.au/images/monolith/DSC02981-600.jpg
21:45:14 <bsmntbombdood> "The top of the pump after running for a few hours got really damn hot, so i decided to cool it."
21:45:25 <ehird> the attraction of watercooling, to me, is running without any fans.
21:45:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the pump's in a cold room
21:45:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and as I said:
21:45:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.overclockers.com.au/images/monolith/DSC03035-600.jpg
21:45:59 <ehird> 21:44 ehird: but your case almost certainly has some holes in it
21:45:59 <ehird> 21:44 ehird: i highly doubt it needs more than a trickle of air moving about aimlessly
21:46:09 <bsmntbombdood> that's what happens when you try to watercool everything
21:46:21 <ehird> i'm pretty sure you could just poke out the exhaust fan grill on the back of your case
21:46:25 <ehird> and let the air flow by itself
21:46:32 <ehird> for such minor heatsources as what you said
21:46:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no?
21:47:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm putting my data hd in a fanless enclosur
21:47:21 <ehird> also, you can buy HD waterblocks
21:48:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Also, I'm mounting it on the wall of another room. <-- heh
21:48:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm reading it
21:48:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: right well, you can buy 'em
21:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I want 100% passive cooling.
21:48:31 <ehird> AnMaster: zalman totally no noise
21:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: but the pump is inaudible
21:48:38 <ehird> way more so than any fan
21:48:47 <ehird> AnMaster: a reserator system can have no fan
21:48:49 <ehird> I'm almost certian
21:49:00 <ehird> AnMaster: and yes, zalman tnn = case is radiator, heatpipes
21:49:10 <ehird> AnMaster: giant radiator + reservoir + pump
21:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it's made by Zalman
21:49:40 <AnMaster> ah so that explains why all google results seemed to be about a specific product
21:49:42 <ehird> AnMaster: disadvantage is that it can't dissipate too much heat (so put two of them together), and it heats the room
21:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, all cooling systems heat the room
21:50:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: YOU CAN REPEAT AnMaster
21:50:19 <ehird> and "moreso" didn't mean that
21:50:32 <ehird> but fact is, an air-based system won't be a gigantic space heater like the reserator
21:50:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what about only heatpipes...
21:50:48 <ehird> that's what totally no noise does. it cannot cool anywhere near as much as WC
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it can't cool as much!
21:51:02 <ehird> AnMaster: go forwards a bit from where my computer will be and you reach a wall. drill some holes through that wall. mount the two reserators w/ brackets on the wall. feed pipes through
21:51:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no, it won't
21:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, WC can cool below ambient temperature iirc
21:51:21 <ehird> (assertion match fuck yeah)
21:51:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it cannot
21:51:34 <ehird> and that isn't about how much heat the radiator lets out
21:51:36 <ehird> that's cpu temperatures
21:51:38 <AnMaster> Oh wait I'm mixing it up with compressor
21:52:04 <ehird> the hardest part of mounting the reserators
21:52:07 <ehird> is that they're 8kg when filled
21:52:17 <bsmntbombdood> do you think a radiator just magically creates heat somehow?
21:52:26 <ehird> you're not reading what I'm saying
21:52:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you need special support structures then
21:52:32 <GregorR-L> <bsmntbombdood> ANY COOLING SYSTEM HEATS THE ROOM // you could refrigerate the room and redirect the heat outside.
21:52:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, brackets.
21:52:39 <bsmntbombdood> then how will it heat the room more than air cooling
21:52:48 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, sure. But that isn't relevant!
21:52:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it won't. the point is the concentration in one space, and the lack of moving air
21:53:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, I never said that the look of my face was relevant to this discussion...
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21:54:28 <ehird> (two reserators mounted above my head in an unused staircase)->coolness
21:54:30 <ehird> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
21:54:36 <ehird> (two reserators sitting in my room)->coolness
21:56:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so nyah.
21:56:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/archive.html is messed up too
21:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, got a good pic of that reserator?
21:57:28 <ehird> AnMaster: yep, sec
21:57:40 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg
21:57:48 <ehird> it's the big metal tower with the fins, in case you're confused. :p
21:58:10 <ehird> (that * 2) + wall-mounting + drilled holes in walls = silent, heatless water cooling from my position
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22:00:12 <ehird> 'part from coil whine
22:02:52 <ehird> http://www.feser-one.com/site/popup_image2.php?pID=322
22:02:53 <ehird> 18.75"x5.85"x4.10" (LxWxH)
22:02:57 <ehird> dissipates 2000 watts
22:03:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: you mean that empty space at May 16, pushing everything out?
22:03:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err
22:03:31 <ehird> it dissipates 2000 watts
22:03:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: as in, your system can go to 2000 watts of heat
22:03:50 <ehird> and it'll dissipate it into the air successfully
22:03:54 <ehird> a reserator manages 200w
22:04:17 <ehird> the 8kg is 6kg reserator + 2.5 litres of water
22:04:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ... do you understand what i'm saying?
22:04:56 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you top up the water in it...
22:05:07 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't really have to top it up
22:05:12 <ehird> but to replace... drain it
22:05:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm, 2318 shows up in the correct place in the themed archive
22:05:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 2000 watts of heat = 2000 watts of heat
22:05:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> run it for a while <-- ?
22:05:40 <ehird> a radiator can't magically remove heat
22:05:52 <ehird> AnMaster: if you turn on your computer while the tubes are empty it could overheat
22:05:59 <ehird> before the water gets to it
22:06:00 <oerjan> under Steve and Terry, as expected
22:06:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm actually suspecting this isn't intentional any more...
22:06:06 <ehird> so you run just the watercooling for a while
22:07:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but for a regular room I imagine dissipating 2000 watts would make it burn you if you touch it
22:08:01 <ehird> or at least sting a lot
22:08:06 <ehird> can't be more precise than that :)
22:08:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's the radiator heating the air around it
22:08:36 <ehird> no change to cpu temps.
22:08:38 <oerjan> 2000 wasps, on the other hand...
22:08:46 <ehird> it's just where the hot water goes...
22:08:56 <bsmntbombdood> if the radiator is hot enough to burn, the water going through it is, and so the cpu is too
22:09:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well
22:09:20 <ehird> some cpus give up to like 900 watts of heat
22:09:26 <ehird> so i may be overestimating
22:09:35 <ehird> maxing out a 2,000 watt radiator would be hard
22:09:40 <ehird> it's just how much it can theoretically disperse
22:09:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: according to a quick google
22:09:55 <ehird> but anyway, it's just a theoretical maximum
22:10:38 <ehird> think the person saying it was a retard :)
22:10:46 <bsmntbombdood> you can move that much heat through something the size of a cpu heatspreader
22:11:25 <ehird> who cares about how much heat it can dissipate as long as it's enough
22:13:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but ofc, if you're dissipating 2000 watts you'd better fucking have a fan on the radiator
22:15:14 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:22:32 <ehird> "Project wants strong AI within 8 years in giant distributed system and your computer could be a part of it."
22:22:38 <ehird> Gee, I sure hope it's friendly :P
22:23:20 <oerjan> oh i'm sure my computer _would_ be a part of it. whether i signed up or not. :D
22:23:37 <ehird> Will this project make public some of its source code?
22:23:38 <ehird> Will this project describe how knowledge is represented in the brain?
22:23:54 <ehird> "Let's completely revolutionize humanity. But first, PROFIT!!!!!"
22:24:16 <ehird> Why not make public the mechanisms of knowledge representation in the brain?
22:24:16 <ehird> Security is our main concern. As long as this concern is not addressed, it is in everyone's best interest that certain knowledge is restricted.
22:25:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:25:40 <ehird> [[We intend to build a system that has the brain capacity of all people living in the world. This way we can ensure that no one will be left behind.]]
22:25:43 <ehird> NO BRAIN LEFT BEHIND
22:30:42 <myndzi> they want to make a psycho MPD ai?
22:30:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i wonder if it holds that since a reserator can handle a bit over 200w of heat, two of them can handle a bit over 400
22:30:54 <ehird> there are 6 core old xeons
22:30:59 <ehird> (old = core 2 days, iirc)
22:31:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hmm then 400 watts should be enough to cool i7 + gtx 295
22:32:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: erm, for values of taking the heatsink off
22:32:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yeah, so I gotta detach them
22:32:28 <ehird> AnMaster: stupid noname company
22:32:33 <ehird> AnMaster: see reddit
22:32:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: big deal
22:32:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: other option: 2x285 or just 1x285
22:33:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also far more expensive
22:33:26 <ehird> 285~=$400 295=$500
22:33:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: should be fine
22:33:52 <ehird> as i said, reserator can handle a bit above 200, let's say 210
22:34:05 <ehird> so it could probably handle it
22:34:12 <ehird> (410 being an underestimate)
22:34:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or I could just get that massive radiator)
22:34:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or I could get 3xreserators
22:34:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: nothx
22:35:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, companies tend to overestimate
22:35:12 <AnMaster> +os("\n\nYou are standing at a junction. The path north continues along the sheer\ncliff and leads to a high plateau. Directly south you can see the tangled\ntrees an
22:35:12 <AnMaster> d vines of a small forest. In the distance, to the west, you can see\nthe small village that you now call home.\n");
22:35:18 <ehird> it'll actually be like 390, I imagine
22:35:31 <AnMaster> the spurious line break due to using less
22:35:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: lemme look at reserator's manual
22:36:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: cuz it's tiny
22:37:11 <ehird> people like having space.
22:37:23 <ehird> most people aren't enthusiasts, or are buying a non-main pc
22:38:08 <ehird> oh wtx is bigger atx
22:38:12 <ehird> AnMaster: eATX nowadays
22:38:32 <AnMaster> I like the name "workstation ATX" though
22:38:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so buy an eatx mobo
22:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, always liked the word "workstation"
22:39:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: this manual is shit, it doesn't tell you how much heat it can dissipate
22:39:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, "Sun Workstation". From the 80s. Sound so nice
22:39:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but i really don't want to diy :P
22:39:39 <ehird> (having said that it is now inevitable, such is my life)
22:39:40 <KingOfKarlsruhe> yeah, now you can execute bf programs in my counterstrike source server
22:39:49 <ehird> KingOfKarlsruhe: Uh, wonderful.
22:39:51 <ehird> I so want to do that.
22:39:57 <ehird> "hey fagut u suk" "wel ,[.,] to u"
22:40:09 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:40:49 <oerjan> all our counters are on strike
22:41:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: more fuss & the reserator looks pretty & mounting a separate rad/pump would sort of be a pain and also feels more like just putting the whole computer there
22:41:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, that explains why this is a while loop instead of a for one!
22:41:51 <ehird> "The Reserator V2 must be used with the provided G200 coolant. The use of other coolants with the Reserator V2 can cause damage to the Reserator V2 unit, as well as the CPU and VGA jackets."
22:42:01 <ehird> tons of people don't use the stock coolant :)
22:42:16 <bsmntbombdood> 1 megapixel display, 1 megabyte of ram, and 1 megabit of network
22:42:34 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, and a whopping 25 MHz CPU!
22:42:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: exactly, I don't want to do that
22:43:01 <ehird> putting a reserator makes me think "well let's just put the computer there" less than a separate pump/rad
22:43:51 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, up for some compiling again?
22:44:17 <ehird> AnMaster: buy your own i7 :)
22:44:31 <ehird> AnMaster: what‽ you would support EVIL MARKETING‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
22:44:39 <ehird> I am shocked, shocked
22:44:43 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/LostKng.b.c.gz
22:44:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I wish I had that money...
22:44:49 <ehird> that's no benchmark
22:44:56 <ehird> even a naïve interp can start it fast
22:45:16 <ehird> AnMaster: use clang
22:45:21 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes my compiler is much better now
22:45:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:45:39 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, -march=k8-sse3 -O2 ?
22:45:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: -march=i7 just to make him suffer :)
22:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and I pretty much hit the limit to what I can do to mandelbrot. A few more things. But that is it
22:46:37 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: it's only using a gigabyte of ram right now
22:46:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well what I can see "AHA here we can optimise"
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22:47:19 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, I do polynomials now too
22:48:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i think the best solution if it's >420w heat output is 3 reserators
22:48:51 <ehird> could handle >600W of heat
22:49:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't want to build my own
22:49:24 <ehird> AnMaster: miscalculated
22:49:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: a dollar per watt
22:49:43 <ehird> pretty good value ;)
22:51:03 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, currently I have lots to do on the new polynomial code... Since lots of other passes doesn't fully understand it...
22:51:15 <AnMaster> but this is enough to make sure that it runs
22:52:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm sure that a reserator can dissipate more than 200W
22:52:43 <ehird> iirc it can do most things under 300W, someone said
22:52:50 <ehird> so if we say 250, 2 of them can dissipate 500W
22:52:55 <ehird> which is fine for a 420W heat system
22:54:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ha, apparently some of the best standalone radiators only do like 180-580w
22:54:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no fans. at all.
22:54:40 <ehird> the only non-passive components allowed is an HD and a pump
22:54:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: perfectly possible
22:54:59 <ehird> as long as I have a hole in the case for minimal airflow for the few minimal heat components left
22:55:08 <ehird> → just take out the exhaust fan grill
22:56:31 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, you could WC cool the HD maybe
22:57:21 <bsmntbombdood> hdds are more than sufficiently cooled with a slow fan
22:57:36 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, that isn't passive
22:58:01 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes. I want heatpipes + ssd
23:09:31 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, memory controller too
23:09:49 <AnMaster> but it needs to connect to memory
23:11:44 <AnMaster> then there is power, and various other things
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23:15:33 -!- nooga has joined.
23:16:07 <nooga> AnMaster: jag hittar en himmelsk drog
23:16:33 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it is broken Swedish
23:16:41 <GregorR-L> IF ENGLISH WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR #ESOTERIC
23:17:17 <nooga> AnMaster: smygande
23:17:20 -!- darthnuri has joined.
23:17:31 <Slereah_> Plain English is the best language ever
23:17:42 <GregorR-L> ehird: In case you didn't notice, I made egojoust use all lengths and polarities.
23:17:46 <nooga> except for that English is unplain
23:18:33 <AnMaster> or have he stopped using the silly script?
23:18:46 -!- coppro has joined.
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23:19:08 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: It started bothering me at least as much as everyone else :P
23:19:15 <nooga> my English is totally broken, but idc
23:22:08 <FireFly> [00:16:07] <nooga> AnMaster: jag hittar en himmelsk drog
23:22:15 <FireFly> Wouldn't that be correct swedish?
23:22:30 <AnMaster> FireFly, well, just strange I guess
23:22:40 <AnMaster> "hittade" would make more sense
23:22:41 <GregorR-L> Bork bork bork spaghetti bork bork bork.
23:22:57 <nooga> AnMaster: it's from a song by Kent
23:23:35 <FireFly> Couldn't remember the english term :P
23:23:52 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9d3JqXr7fg that shit
23:23:56 <AnMaster> FireFly, What is the Swedish term for it now again
23:24:00 <nooga> my brother is addicted to them
23:25:30 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:26:53 <nooga> AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnr0HPt5f0 this is quite nice
23:36:50 <ehird> 23:17 GregorR-L: ehird: In case you didn't notice, I made egojoust use all lengths and polarities. ← yes, so I stopped working on my interp
23:37:11 <ehird> 22:58 AnMaster: bsmntbombdood, yes. I want heatpipes + ssd ← tnn, stfu
23:37:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: uh cuz yours does what mine was gonna?
23:38:05 <ehird> AnMaster: zalman totally no noise
23:38:09 <ehird> heatpipes + case is radiator
23:38:11 <GregorR-L> Yours was going to have proper expansionlessness :P
23:38:17 <ehird> it can't run a non-low-powered system
23:38:24 <ehird> so stop obsessing over it
23:38:49 <ehird> watercooling is passive modulo pump
23:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, consider a recording studio
23:39:12 <ehird> AnMaster: recording studio people use quiet air cooled and watercooled pcs
23:39:16 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know how silent a pump is?
23:39:33 <ehird> inaudible to the human ear from just a tiny distance away, that's how queit
23:39:40 <ehird> quieter than any fan
23:40:29 <GregorR-L> The pumps built into the human body are nearly silent while inhabiting that very human body.
23:40:42 <GregorR-L> (Like how useless my commentary is?)
23:40:55 <ehird> AnMaster: space? what?
23:41:08 <ehird> AnMaster: what about it
23:41:10 <ehird> so use a pump instead
23:41:20 <ehird> so use a pump instead
23:41:25 <ehird> but seriously, what?
23:41:37 <ehird> AnMaster: space is 4 kelvin
23:41:40 <AnMaster> they use heatpipes and pel-wahtever-elements a lot of he the time
23:41:42 <ehird> good job needing cooling in that
23:41:53 <ehird> you don't mean directly in space? gee, then your argument's rubbish
23:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, um... the sunny side gets very hot
23:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, so "you don't need cooling" is very wrong
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23:42:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: gtx 285 = 204W
23:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, vacuum is a good insulator too.
23:42:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: = 344W total w/ i7
23:43:01 <AnMaster> well not perfect vacuum of course
23:43:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: 2 reserators would handle that and yawn as a sideproject
23:43:48 <ehird> i admit, though, that it would be nice to be able to handle a gtx 295.
23:44:27 <ehird> ati cards tend to be a little less hot iirc
23:44:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought they called them "geforce 9000" and such iirc
23:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: up to the 9800gtx+
23:44:50 <ehird> but their high end gaming cards are named gtx 2??
23:45:00 <ehird> gtx 260, gtx 275, gtx 285, gtx 295
23:45:02 <ehird> is the current range, iirc
23:45:04 <AnMaster> ehird, great... I remember when it was simple Geforce 3 Geforce 4a
23:45:17 <ehird> wait, there's also a gts 250
23:45:23 <ehird> the s presumably stands for shitty
23:45:28 <ehird> but they list it with the gtxes
23:46:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i like how this started with "stfu the reserator pwns" and is now "dude the reserator sucks diy it"
23:49:56 <ehird> 19:25 ehird: http://www.zalman.co.kr/DataFile/product/RESERATOR-1-V2_01_b(0).jpg Combined pump, reservoir and... space heater.
23:49:58 <ehird> 19:25 bsmntbombdood: ehird: stfu, that thing's awesome
23:50:08 <ehird> 22:49 bsmntbombdood: build your own
23:51:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i have a portable radiator/space heater behind me. think i should rip out the radiator and do it ghetto-style? :D
23:53:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: THAT WAS A JOKE :(
23:53:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it probably can't even radiate much
23:53:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ...right?
23:54:08 <ehird> i mean, it only has 3 heat settings.
23:58:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i thought you said horse
23:58:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also, um, that's kind of expensive
23:58:41 <ehird> i don't want to be refilling it every day :D
23:59:02 <ehird> it also, bsmntbombdood, begs the question of what to hose it on to.
23:59:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yer joking... right?
23:59:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i mean in general
23:59:55 <ehird> with the whole idea of using a hose.